Mr. Chairman, I should like to claim the privilege of the half-hour. In many ways perhaps fate has been kind to this hon. Minister on this occasion, because were it not for the sub judice rule we would probably, during the discussion on his Vote on this occasion, have been moving for the reduction of his salary. Because of the circumstances, however, let me hasten to assure him that that is not going to happen.

[Inaudible.]

If the hon. the Prime Minister wants to take part in the debate, he should do so later. I am sure he would be given a chance. [Interjections.] Since this hon. Minister’s Vote was last discussed, there has been a major change in his responsibilities, in the sense that as a result of the recommendations by the Rabie Commission he is now responsible for a directorate of internal security, in addition to his responsibility in regard to the South African Police. I therefore hope that the hon. the Minister will take the opportunity, during this debate, to give us some details about how these two spheres of responsibility are going to be coupled together, what the mechanism for this is going to be and what the arrangements are going to be within his department, under his authority.

I say that because at this stage I also want to protest at our having to enter the debate this morning without yet having received a report from the relevant department. This is most unfortunate.

Here it is.

Yes, the hon. Whip is waving a document around which was placed on our desks this morning. When I came to the House this morning, inquiries were made of the Parliamentary staff and we were told it was going to be distributed this morning. I do not believe that it is conducive to good and constructive debate in regard to the hon. the Minister’s department that a document relating to the department is made available an hour before the House sits in order to discuss a Vote of this nature.

Just ask for the reasons.

I hope that the hon. the Minister will give us an explanation for this, because it is customary for these reports to be made available to members for their convenience and also in the interests of constructive debate when we deal with a department of this nature.

The Rabie Commission, in making the recommendation that the responsibility for Police should be coupled with the responsibility for a Directorate of Internal Security, said amongst other things that it believed that this should be so rather than that it remain the responsibility of the Department of Justice because it was important that the Department of Justice should be seen as the protector of the interests of the citizens of the country. I hope that this does not mean or imply that this hon. Minister, either in his capacity as Minister of Police or in his capacity as the Minister responsible for security affairs, does not also see himself and his department as the protectors of the interests of all the citizens of the country. I believe it is necessary for the Minister to have these widened responsibilities—and they are very great responsibilities indeed—particularly with a view to the situation in the country at the present time.

However, I believe it is important that this hon. Minister, as the Minister of Law and Order, should with his senior officials take a very long, hard and critical look at the public image of our Police and Security Forces because there is no doubt that they can only be as effective as the public will allow them to be and that no Police Force can operate successfully unless it has the support and sympathy of the general public. I think that the whole question of the image of the Police Force and of the Security Forces is a matter that should receive the very urgent attention of the hon. the Minister and his senior officials.

I have made this point before and I want to make it again today that, if one looks at the lot of the South African policeman, I believe there is a great deal of sympathy for him. I believe that his lot is perhaps amongst the most unenviable of any policeman in the world. This is so because of the nature of the society in which he has to operate and because of the unjust and inequitable laws which he is expected to enforce. This does not make the lot of the policeman in South Africa an easy one in any circumstances. In the process of the policeman exercising these responsibilities and enforcing laws of this kind, his public image suffers considerably.

I think one can look at the question of the policeman’s image in different categories, i.e. both in relation to the various sections of the Force and in relation to the various population groups. To take one example, if one looks at the ordinary policemen carrying out their normal duties as law enforcement officers amongst the White population, duties such as the prevention of crime, the detection of crime, the protection of people and property and so on, I think that the image of that section of the Force amongst the White population is a fairly reasonable one. I believe that there is general sympathy for the ordinary policeman, I believe that there is an appreciation for the services he renders and I think that, where there is criticism regarding the adequacy of law enforcement, it is more often than not coupled with an understanding of the toughness of the policeman’s job, of the inadequacy of his remuneration and service conditions and of the fact that he is often grossly overburdened because of the acute staff shortages of which we are all aware. I believe that there is general understanding amongst the public in regard to those matters.

Helen does not agree with you.

Are you mind-reading?

I believe she does, but let her speak for herself. So, if one looks at the image of the Police Force in carrying out their normal duties amongst the White population, I think that they attract both appreciation and sympathy.

Look now at a second category, that is the image of the ordinary policeman amongst groups other than Whites, I believe that the story is different. Amongst those groups the policeman is often seen as a symbol of authority, not the ordinary and respected authority, but the harsh authority which regulates the lives of voiceless and underprivileged people in South Africa. As I have said, this authority is used to enforce unpopular and unjust laws, whether in respect of pass law offences, forced removal of people from their homes, demolition of shacks or whatever it may be. This is how it is used and in circumstances like that, the policeman is very often, amongst groups other than Whites in South Africa, seen as a symbol of oppression, rather than a symbol of protection. Under these circumstances he operates in a society which has very little sympathy for him and in which the people of the community at large, if not often openly hostile, are certainly indifferent. I believe that that is an image which is totally unhealthy in any society and it is an image which carries with it immense danger for the Police Force when operating, even in the course of their normal duties, amongst large sections of the South African population. I view this type of image with great concern and I believe that the hon. the Minister should do so as well.

In my view it is absolutely essential that urgent steps be taken by the hon. the Minister and the senior officers of the Police Force in order to have that image changed. In the light of the laws which they have to enforce it may be impossible, but I still believe that some attention has got to be given to the matter in order to improve their image, particularly amongst sections of the population of South Africa, other than Whites. This could involve a number of factors.

Firstly, I believe that it is important—I hope the hon. the Minister will respond to this today—that the hon. the Minister must recognize and acknowledge the problem, because it is a problem. Secondly, I believe that the hon. the Minister must take great care in the deployment of the Police Force in matters which relate to social and political grievances amongst the general public. The hon. the Minister must be sure that when they are so deployed they exercise the utmost discretion in the performance of their duties. Thirdly, I believe that the hon. the Minister should take steps to ensure that all members of the Police Force are briefed as to the sensitivity of the situation in instances of this kind. Fourthly, I believe that if one is trying to correct this image, the hon. the Minister must ensure that members of the Police Force are made aware of the need to show the general public, particularly the Black public in South Africa, that they are friends and not enemies.

In the light of the laws which the police are required to enforce amongst Blacks it is open to question whether any of this can be achieved, but I believe that they have at least got to try and I believe that it is urgent that this image be improved.

Dealing with the image of the Police Force as a whole, there is a third category, and that relates to the security branch of the Police Force. I believe that they are the biggest victims of the Draconian laws from which they derive their authority. These laws cut right across the rights of individuals and basic civil liberties in South Africa. I believe that as a result, this branch of the Police Force very often are feared, mistrusted and despised by large sections of our population. They have earned for themselves an unenviable reputation, not only in South Africa, but around the world.

The hon. the Minister must be aware of that reputation and that image, and in the interests of the Force as a whole, I believe he should do something about it. Other speakers on this side of the House will have more to say about this particular aspect during the course of this debate, but before leaving the question of the image of the Force, I would like to commend to the hon. the Minister and to hon. members the words of the Chief of the Security Police at a passing-out parade recently. I want to quote from a report which appeared in The Argus on 15 April 1982—

This was in Durban—

Speaking at a passing-out parade of 69 Indian policemen at Wentworth, the general said, inter alia—

I commend those words. Talking about the difficulties and the onslaught against South Africa, the General went on to say—

I believe these are thoroughly commendable and worthy sentiments from the Commissioner of Police, and I hope that they are carried through to every member of the Police Force. Quite clearly, as I have already said, unless a Police Force in any country is able to count upon the sympathy and understanding of the general public, it is not going to be able to operate effectively. Therefore the hon. the Minister must look at these situations with great care indeed in order to preserve and create the proper image of the Police Force amongst the public. When I say this, I mean all sections of the Police Force, as I have indicated.

I now want to deal with a couple of specific matters which are not unrelated to what I have said regarding the image of the Force. Earlier in this session, during the debate on the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill, I raised with the hon. the Minister the answer that he had given to me in reply to a question that I had placed on the Order Paper relating to excesses on the part of certain members of the Police Force. The question I asked was whether any money was paid to members of the public in 1980 and 1981 in respect of (a) assault by members of the Police Force and (b) unlawful arrest, and, if so, what was the total amount and in respect of how many complaints in each category. The hon. the Minister replied that in respect of assault, an amount of R201 000 was paid in 1980 and that in 1981 that amount had increased to R209 000. In 1980 there had been 73 instances of assault by members of the police on the public and in 1981, 117. With regard to the second part of the question, relating to unlawful arrest, the amount in 1980 was R68 720 and in 1981 it had increased to R107 650. The incidences in 1980 were 70 as against 82 in 1981. When I raised this matter with the hon. the Minister during the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill he indicated that he was concerned, that he had noted this when he had given me the reply and that he would go into the matter and would like to deal with it more extensively during the discussion of his Vote. I hope he shall do so today. I certainly think it is a matter that does need attention.

Again, in regard to another matter one operates under difficulties because one does not have the statistics. I think the hon. the Minister should use this opportunity to indicate in greater detail what the position is in regard to the staff shortages in the Police Force. Judging from replies to questions, it would seem that there has been an improvement. Certainly since last year I would say that there has been a moderate improvement. However, there are still a number of shortages. The hon. the Minister has indicated that over the period January to December 1981 some 4 278 new recruits had been taken into the Police Force as against some 2 700 resignations of all ranks, which indicates something like a 1 500 gain over the year. That certainly is an improvement, but one is still left with the position that there are very serious shortages in the Force. As indicated in the second part of the hon. the Minister’s reply to a question on this issue, it appears that particularly in the rank of constable, there were still very severe shortages, i.e. some 2 400 in the Transvaal, 400 odd in the Free State, 300 in Natal and 850 in the Cape Province. This gives rise to concern because it appears that there still are problems in getting recruits for the lower ranks of the Police Force. Once again, this may well be the result of the salary conditions that are offered to new recruits. I should like the hon. the Minister to deal with this aspect, particularly the aspect as to what steps should be taken to encourage more recruits into the lower ranks of the Police Force. I think this is very important.

My time is nearly up. The matter which I still want to raise with the hon. the Minister is the whole question of crime increase in South Africa. Again, it is difficult to get statistics on this issue, but one is very conscious of the fact that in Cape Town, Durban and Johannesburg there appears to be a great increase in the incidents of crime. Street muggings and robberies take place in great numbers, and one reads in the Press of this daily. I believe too the hon. the Minister should indicate from figures which he will have available, whether his department is satisfied that, in the present circumstances, it is able to control ordinary crime, particularly in the urban areas of South Africa. It does seem from newspaper reports that there has been an increase in the incidents of crime.

These then are matters which I should like the Minister to attend to, and maybe we can discuss them in greater detail later.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea referred to the image of the police, and we on this side of the House agree that we must improve the image of the police. A scientific investigation into the image of the police has already been undertaken, and the results are available. An hon. colleague of mine will refer to this later in the debate.

However, I want to bring a charge against the hon. members of the PFP. I am not really annoyed with the hon. member for Berea, but some of his colleagues in the PFP have done nothing during the past three or four decades but denigrate the image of the police. [Interjections.] Surely that is true. After all, we know what the standpoint of the hon. member for Houghton—who is now sitting there staring at me—has been as regards the police of South Africa.

You do not have to point a finger at me. I only exposed the shortcomings because that is my job.

We shall discuss this matter again later today.

However, before I take this matter further, I should like to express my sincere sympathy of this side of the House with the next-of-kin of policemen and women—White, Coloured and Black—who lost their lives during the past year in the combating of terrorism and other crimes in South Africa. They are the silent, unsung heroes of South Africa, and they died so that our lives could be safer and more peaceful. We should like to pay tribute to them and honour their memory.

During the past year several senior officers in the Police Force were promoted. In this connection one thinks of General Hennie de Wit, General Zietsman, General Dr. Neethling, Brigadier Grobbelaar, Brigadier Frik Reyneke, Brigadier Van Zyl, Brigadier Alwyn Conradie and Brigadier Engelbrecht. We on this side of the House should like to convey our sincere congratulations to these men. We know their promotions were well earned and that the greater responsibilities resting on their shoulders are safe with them.

At the end of April of this year two very senior officers retired from the Force, namely General Engels, the Deputy Commissioner of Staff and Administration, and General Kobus Visser, the well-known chief of the detective branch in South Africa. These two men are now retiring after a lifetime of unselfish service to South Africa and its people. We thank them on behalf of the people of South Africa for the work they have done.

Evidence points to the fact that nowadays the fiths against terrorists and other criminals must be fought at a highly sophisticated level. Particularly with regard to security matters, the days of the stupid, untrained terrorist who tried to achieve his goal by means of hit-and-run tactics, are gone forever. Nowadays one finds that these people operate at a high intellectual level, and to fight them effectively it is imperative that the police move on the same level. Nowadays people are not caught so easily. Our policemen must know what they are about, and to ensure that they do, we must get the right people to join the Force and give them the right training. In this connection it is gratifying to point out that of men who joined the Police Force in the year under review, 71% had matriculation or a higher, qualification. This bodes well for the future, particularly if we can succeed in keeping these men in the Force.

The policemen undergo their training at the well-known Police College in Pretoria. This college was established as the S.A. Police Depot as far back as 1 April 1913. Between 1913 and 1920 only 200 men were trained at the college. However, between 1925 and 1982, 67 728 members of the Force were trained there. This year alone 1 555 students will undergo their training there over a period of 12 months. In July of this year there will be a further intake of students, who will also undergo 12 months’ training.

At present the staff of the college consists of 59 officers under the command of Brigadier Frik Reynecke, and 206 non-commissioned officers. They are assisted by 73 Black members of the Force.

The academic education at the college is undertaken by highly qualified people. Two have B.A., LL.B. degrees—they are advocates—five have B.A. (Law) degrees, 10 have B.A. (Education) and B.A. (Police Education) degrees and 10 of the lecturers have diplomas. In addition to the basic training which is compulsory for all members, a number of advanced and specialized training courses are also offered. Owing to a lack of facilities these courses are given on the same premises as the basic training. Since 1966, when the courses were introduced, 9 752 members have been trained in 16 different courses or subjects. Of this number, 1 406 have been members of the Police Forces of the National States. During this period 3 185 candidate officers and 2 044 detectives were trained. This advanced training of the men of the Police Force must receive very high priority, because as I have said, the intellectual level of the criminal is continuing to rise and our men must keep pace.

I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether the time has not come for these training facilities to be separated from the Police College, with a view to greater specialization.

From the foregoing it is clear that no stone is being left unturned to afford the members of the Police Force the best possible training to carry out their vitally important task. Our men dare not lag behind, because if they cannot win the battle against the cunning terrorists and other criminals, South Africa will be the loser. The thorough training they undergo at the Police College at present ensures that this will not happen.

But they also learn something else at the college, which I should like to bear personal witness to. This is the sound and fair discipline the men are taught. The training the young men undergo there is intensive, and the “softies” have a hard time of it. Those young boys are turned into men. When they have completed their training they are wonderfully disciplined people who are an asset to our society and people we can all be justly proud of. We come into contact with them every day because they guard and protect this House and its members so that we can debate matters here and hold discussions in peace and safety. These men that we see here in our midst are always friendly, courteous and considerate to everyone irrespective of their political standpoint. They are always ready to be of assistance. Which of us in this House does not feel justly proud of these young men?

Because of the thorough training of the members of the Force it goes without saying that the criminal will be more careful, because he knows he will be caught if he is not very careful. That is why the crime rate in South Africa at present compares extremely favourably with that of the USA, for example. I shall only mention a few examples—in the USA the number of murders committed over the four-year period from 1976 to 1980 increased by 23%, whereas there was an increase of only 16% in South Africa. The number of rapes in the USA rose by 45% during the period 1976 to 1980, but in South Africa it rose by only 0,4% in 1978; by 0,8% in 1979; by 0,5% in 1980 and by 0,2% in 1981.

As far as murder weapons are concerned, it is also interesting to note that firearms were used in the USA in 62% of cases of assault, etc.; in contrast, firearms were only used in 10% of cases in South Africa, while other weapons were used in 90% of the cases. In comparison with the USA, it is therefore clear that the misuse of firearms in South Africa is negligible.

However, we must not deduce from this success story of our police that we in South Africa are free of danger. Such a mistake could be fatal for all of us. Consider for example what General Visser, who has just retired, had to say in a recent interview, namely—

This is the warning of an expert, a man who knows what he is talking about. How are we, the public of South Africa, going to take this warning? Are we going to ignore it and simply pass it off as a case of someone crying wolf, or are we going to take this warning to heart and ensure that we are prepared when events of this kind occur in our neighbourhood?

Mr. Chairman, I request the privilege of the half hour. We have relatively little time at our disposal, and before coming to the subject in which I am particularly interested I shall begin by discussing a few matters in general terms.

In the first place, I want to mention the fact that the image of the S.A. Police Force is dragged across the floor of this House, as it were, every year. I am sorry that this sort of thing happens. It is not the NP, the CP and the NRP who are guilty of this behaviour, but it is regrettable that a negative image of the S.A. Police is always dragged across the floor of this House by the official Opposition. I believe we must get away from this practice. If there are problems the official Opposition wants to discuss, they should feel free to clear them up in the office of the hon. the Minister. [Interjections.] I feel their behaviour thus far has not been in the interests of the S.A. Police Force.

It is a great pleasure for me, on behalf of my party, to join other hon. members in wishing the hon. the Minister everything of the best in his future handling of the new Department of Law and Order. It has also been clear from the outset that a number of storms are brewing around the hon. the Minister in this debate, and we shall have to prepare ourselves for this. [Interjections.] In addition there is legislation on the Order Paper, and the hon. the Minister is probably aware of the fact that this is also going to cause quite a storm.

The hon. the Minister will undoubtedly be able to handle this new ministry just as well as he handled the Department of Police, and we wish him every success, because it remains one of the most important departments in the management of the affairs of our country. [Interjections.] In this regard I also want to give the hon. the Minister the assurance that the CP will stand by him in the handling of the affairs of this department, and this also applies to the Commissioner of Police and all the policemen. We assure them that we shall support them wholeheartedly in their task. We shall put forward constructive suggestions and shall not be unnecessarily critical. We should also like to make a contribution to strengthen the hon. the Minister’s hand so that law and order can be maintained in our country.

As a result of the establishment of the new department with a wider ambit, the hon. the Minister’s responsibilities have definitely increased, and in this regard, too, we wish him every success.

Mention has been made of the fact that we only received the annual report this morning. This is a matter we also deplore, and I want to suggest that something be done in this connection, because this is a phenomenon that has occurred in a number of departments. In some cases a report covers the period up to June 1981, but it is only tabled now, and this is most undesirable. I know there have been problems. I also know what the problems were, because I made inquiries. However, we should be much obliged if the report could be made available to us earlier because, I believe, one can then have a really meaningful debate on these matters. It is a beautiful report, one which it is really a pleasure to refer to. It is particularly interesting to note that the Police Force now has its own flag. It is a unique flag, a flag one can really feel proud of. I am therefore also certain that the whole of the S.A. Police Force will be extremely proud of this flag.

The hon. member for Berea has already referred to the new composition of the Department of Law and Order. I, too, want to refer to it. Before I do so, I should also like to join other hon. members in paying tribute to the memory of members of the S.A. Police Force who made the highest sacrifice in the various operational fronts in our country. We honour their memory.

In the memorandum on this Vote that was made available to us I note that it is stated that no essential change has taken place in the policy and activities of the S.A. Police. I believe that this is an extremely modest statement. As far as policy is concerned, I believe it is of course true. However, as far as the activities are concerned, I feel we must all recognize that there have been tremendous developments in the scope of these activities.

As I have already said, I should also like to refer to the new composition of the Department of Law and Order. As has already been indicated here, the establishment of the new ministry was the result of a recommendation by the Rabie Commission. We feel this is a very good step and trust that the co-operation between the two components of the new department will be good, as is in fact envisaged. The two components will be separate, but there are nevertheless a number of fields in which they will certainly have to co-operate very closely. In this connection I have in mind, for example, the fields of internal security and the prevention of crime, to mention only two. I should be glad if the hon. the Minister could elaborate on this matter and clarify for us what the task of the new Director of Internal Security will be. At this stage we do not know whether the post has already been filled. However, we shall probably be told this in due course.

Basically the activities of the Commissioner of Police and his Force have remained the same, namely the preservation of internal security, the maintenance of law and order, the investigation of every crime and alleged crime, the prevention of crime, etc. In its recommendations the Rabie Commission defined the task of the Directorate of Internal Security. However, I have a suspicion that there could eventually be an overlapping of functions. I should therefore be obliged if the hon. the Minister would comment on this as well. As we understand it, one of the most important tasks of the Director of Internal Security is to assist the Minister in the administration of legislation in connection with preventive detention, detention without trial, restriction of people, banning of organizations, banning of certain publications, and short-term detentions. This is more or less what was set out in the Rabie Commission. Perhaps the hon. the Minister could give us further particulars in this connection. I also believe that the contemplated legislation will contain further details in this connection.

The Rabie Commission also pointed out that it had to be the duty of the Commissioner of Police to transmit information received involving the security of the country to the new Director of Internal Security who in turn would evaluate and process it. It was also stated that information would be supplied to the Director by the other security services in the country. This is of course important, and we should like to know more about the tasks to be entrusted to this new Director. What sort of information is involved? Is it only information in connection with internal security? Does the new Director of Internal Security also have something to do with the tasks and affairs of political organizations? We should like to know about this, because there is a rumour that certain organizations are going to be implicated. Perhaps the hon. the Minister could therefore elaborate on this a little, because I feel it is important for the general public to take cognizance of this.

This brings me to another matter which is of particular concern to me. I want to refer to the operational involvement of the South African Police on the borders of South Africa. I referred to this when I expressed my sympathy with the next-of-kin of those who have made the highest sacrifice there. The border of South West Africa is, however, not the only operational area where the South African Police are involved. There are various other operational areas where the South African Police are involved.

I should now like to refer to another operational area where a branch of the South African Police is involved, an operational area where the struggle is just as fierce as in any of the other operational areas. It is an operational area where in my opinion the fighting is fiercer and more dangerous than the physical stuggle against the threat on our borders. I am referring to the shadow world of the drug pedlar and liquor-runners, the world in which the morals, health and morale of the entire population of South Africa is attacked and destroyed. It is in this operational area that a branch of the South African Police must perform an almost superhuman task in fighting the enemy.

I want to refer in particular to the work of the South African Narcotics Bureau, Sanab. It is as well that reference is made in this House from time to time to the work of specific divisions or branches of the South African Police. In the first place, this should be done to draw the attention of the general public to the fact that the South African Police protects and secures the interests of every inhabitant of our country in many respects. It should also be done in order to show that every member of the public has a responsibility to assist the South African Police in the struggle to combat certain evils. However, this is not being done to single out a specific branch of the South African Police for special thanks, although in my opinion it would not be inappropriate to place on record that we in this House take grateful and appreciative cognizance of the work done by Sanab.

In the very short time at my disposal I can of course only touch on a few matters in connection with the work of this branch. I do not want to burden this hon. House with statistics as to the quantity of dagga, Mandrax pills, cocaine, opium or other drugs smuggled or sold annually. It is also virtually unnecessary to say that there is worldwide concern regarding the fact that increasing drug addiction goes hand in hand with prosperous and successful drug sales. It is also unnecessary to say there is concern about the increasing link between drug abuse and related problems such as crime, broken homes, psychological disturbances, etc. The men who share this concern with us comprise that branch of the South African Police Force. It one comes into contact with the members of Sanab and one is interested in the invaluable work being done by these members of the South African Police, and one hears about their experience and the dangers they are frequently exposed to, as well as the tasks that keep them busy 24 hours a day, one realizes how valuable their contribution is. They frequently have to work very long hours, because a drug pedlar is one of the most ingenious criminals. It is only against this background that one really begins to gain insight into the magnitude of the task facing the members of Sanab. The ingenuity of the drug pedlar and the millions of rands they have at their disposal to buy, sell and to bribe in their unceasing efforts to break people down, is simply astounding.

It is accordingly a good idea for us to see where the members of Sanab operate. Their work involves the gambling dens, massage parlours, nightclubs, licensed and unlicensed premises where liquor is available, restaurants, shebeens, of which I am told there are approximately 2 000 in the Cape Town area alone, brothels, prostitutes and discotheques. As far as the discotheques are concerned, it is interesting to see what the S.A. Narcotics Bureau encounters in the course of its work. One encounters the most appalling forms of propaganda for the sale of dagga. This propaganda is recorded on records and occurs in various forms. If one enters a discotheque one may come across an attractive record cover depicting two laughing Mexicans. However, if one opens the cover one sees a picture of the motorcar in which they are travelling and one sees that the inside is lined with hidden dagga plants. There are many record covers of this kind. I have one here on which the dagga plants serve as a background. All this is propaganda to promote sales. It is the job and the task of the members of this very important division of the Police Force to be on the lookout for this sort of thing. We appeal to them, wherever they are to keep their eyes open and to fight these evils whenever they encounter them. One sees someone walking in the street wearing a T-shirt such as the one I have here. The words “Advice to Terrorists” are printed on it. While one is wearing it, all one can see is Chinese lettering. However, if one turns it inside out one finds the coarsest and most repulsive language imaginable. This is what this branch of the S.A. Police must be on the look-out for. There are records that ridicule Christ, the Pope and the Creation. All these matters are the task of this branch of the S.A. Police, that we are paying tribute to today for the exceptional work they do in this connection.

This branch carries out a physically almost impossible task. That is why I think it is especially necessary to make an appeal to the public to give their help and support to this branch of the police. If they come across anything they have doubts about, they should contact the members of the S.A. Narcotics Bureau who, in turn, will pass it on to the Publications Board so that the necessary steps can be taken. These men are specialists. These men are trained for a special task. We want to thank the hon. the Minister and General Geldenhuys for creating the opportunity for these men, who are so well and so thoroughly trained, to be available to carry out this task because they are men of unquestionable integrity. They are all men of the same high calibre. They are among the most loyal members of the Force. Other members are just as loyal, but special demands are made of these men. Accordingly we want to ask the hon. the Minister to look after these men of our Force. This morning South Africa wants to convey a special word of thanks to these members of the S.A. Police. This battle has to be fought on many fronts, or, as I said, in many operational areas. The battle being waged for the future of our country is also being waged against the decline of the morals and the good habits and customs of our nation. In this field this branch of the S.A. Police is performing an exceptional task.

Mr. Chairman, I listened with great attention to the hon. member Mr. Theunissen. The only matter I want to join issue with him on is that he did not show his evidence to this side of the House so that we could also examine it. I want to thank the hon. member and congratulate him on his very friendly speech and the very kind words he used in connection with the hon. the Minister and the S.A. Police.

It is particularly welcome that the spirit of this debate is being maintained at this level. The speech by the hon. member for Berea proved that the attack on the S.A. Police and on the hon. the Minister in particular has virtually no substance. In contrast with the hon. member Mr. Theunissen, who touched on and singled out positive reasons why the Minister and the S.A. Police deserve credit and praise, the hon. member for Berea had to search around for matters he could criticize the S.A. Police about. His main attack on the S.A. Police revolved around the allegation that the image of the S.A. Police was not as favourable in the eyes of the public as it ought to be. However, he admitted that their image is at least not poor among the White public, but that their image might not be all that favourable among members of the coloured communities. A colleague of mine on this side of the House will reply scientifically to these arguments, which the hon. member could not substantiate scientifically. I want to argue with him on the basis of first-hand knowledge. I know of a Black man-I also know him personally-in the vicinity of Krugersdorp who retired from the S.A. Police Force and shortly thereafter made himself available for election as a member of the Community Council of Kagiso. Before hon. members on that side of the House threaten to bombard me with suggestions that being elected a member of the Community Council of Kagiso does not mean much, let me hasten to add that the percentage poll at that election was the highest for all community councils, and that those members were elected with a percentage poll of 48%. In contrast the White city council of Krugersdorp was elected this year with a percentage poll of 40%. That expoliceman conducted his election campaign with great success and won. If he had the reputation of being a bully who knocks people around and tramples them underfoot he would not have achieved that success.

I also want to put it to the hon. member for Berea for consideration that he should take note of the activities launched by divisional commissioners and district commandants in the various areas for which they accept responsibility to maintain good relations with the communities where they serve. One cannot do otherwise but come to the conclusion that the S.A. Police Force is not only intent on entering the underworld and bringing offenders to book in order to maintain law and order, but that they are also interested in gaining the goodwill of the residents of those areas. Something which has struck me on more than one occasion is the favourable way in which a newspaper like The Sowetan, which is certainly not well disposed towards the Government and is not known for flattering and praising this Government, refers to the Divisional Commissioner of Soweto, and police actions in Soweto. They speak appreciatively of the attempts made by that Divisional Commissioner and other divisional commissioners to call people together and hold discussions with them. Recently there was the case of a commanding officer who called together various community leaders to hold discussions with them on how to prevent possible action by gangs. I therefore do not think there is much truth in arguments by hon. members on that side of the House, and I think there is much to be said for the fact that at this stage of the debate there have not yet been any really discordant notes with regard to the behaviour of the police or the hon. the Minister.

There is another matter—on which I think we are going to reserve judgment—and that is the standpoint which the hon. member for Berea adopted when he said that draconian security measures and legislation reflect negatively on the South African Police. We reserve judgment on this. Another hon. member of the PFP is still going to discuss this matter, but we reserve judgment because in the days ahead we are going to have pentrating debates on security legislation. I also want to give notice of the fact that we intend to fight tooth and nail in those debate. We are therefore reserving judgment until those debates.

Whereas this is the very first opportunity we have had to debate this newly constituted Department of Law and Order, I feel it is important that we should achieve unanimity in this House on a deep-lying principle. The fact of the matter is that at present there are serious political processes and constitutional developments in progress in South Africa and it is of real and cardinal importance that these processes should continue in an orderly and peaceful way. That is why it is of equally great importance for everyone who is in favour of peaceful change, irrespective of colour, political persuasion or the organization in which they find themselves, to make a bold stand against those people who do not believe in the process of peaceful change in South Africa. There are in fact people who do not believe in peace or peaceful change. There are people who have an interest in unrest and in these processes not being successfully accomplished. I have already indicated that on both sides of this argument there are people of different convictions, different political standpoints and different colours. If the S.A. Police are therefore directed to concentrate their attention on those people who want to endanger or undermine this process of peaceful change, it is because they are convinced that those people do not wish to serve this process, which must take place in an orderly and peaceful fashion. This does not mean a student’s studies are interrupted merely because he is studying. This does not mean a trade union man is prevented from bargaining on the shop floor in the best interests of his trade union members. This does not mean that people of various convictions are adhering to a specific political view.

Order! The hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I am merely rising to give the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Thank you. What is in fact at issue is that these people are trying to undermine these peaceful processes. When the Government, through the hon. the Minister, the hon. the Prime Minister and hon. members on this side of the House, therefore addresses words of warning to the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, it is because we are convinced that they do not want to promote these peaceful processes. I also want to allege that if any person or body spreads the rumour that the Government is paying attention to statements by the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging because those people are White and do not make similar or identical statements regarding other Black movements, for example the ANC and so forth, that person or body is being malicious and spreading a false rumour. I also maintain that anyone in whose presence this standpoint is adopted who does not repudiate it there and then, is an accessory in spreading this maliciousness.

I should now like to say a few words about motor-cyclists. If anyone is of the opinion that I am in conflict with or that there is tension between the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs and myself, I immediately want to deny this. There is no tension between the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs and I, because I feel he is a peace-loving and law-abiding motor-cyclist. I want to join issue with motor-cyclists who in my opinion, are not so peace-loving and who ought to be made more law-abiding. I am referring here to various motor-cyle rallies, which take on various forms. Krugersdorp has first-hand knowledge of two motor-cycle rallies which have been held there over the Easter Weekends of the past two years, the so-called Rhino Rallies. Of course there were also motorcycle rallies elsewhere in South Africa. I think I can say without fear of any appreciable contradiction that the following took place at these rallies: There was public indecency. There were cases of people dancing naked and streaking and of half-dressed people riding around on motor-cycles, etc. Offensive language was used; there were fights and assaults as well as excessive drinking. Little children were in the area and saw all these things. There were also young girls under the age of 16 years in the area. During the last Rhino Rally there were about 150 accidents and 50 motor-cyclists had to receive medical treatment. In addition there was malicious damage to property and many motor-cyclists openly carried revolvers and pistols. The organizers of the rally had an ambulance on duty on the premises, but on occasion the two ambulance drivers were so drunk that they were not able to carry out their duties. In addition the ambulance was so dirty and unhygienic that the Krugersdorp Fire Brigade not only had to clean it but also had to sterilize it. The organizers of these rallies adopt a rather indifferent attitude. I believe it can be proved that they take half-hearted action with regard to these matters. Not one of the incidents I mentioned, or the numerous other incidents which took place, were at any stage reported to the police and one cannot but deduce from this that these matters were deliberately and purposely withheld from the South African Police.

In view of this and in view of the fact that there are indications of increasing interest in organizing these sort of rallies because they are financially quite profitable, I want to make a serious appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider ordering a thorough internal investigation with a view to taking uniform action against all these activities. A uniform policy can then be drawn up. In the second place I want to ask that the S.A. Police refuse to co-operate with the organizers and refuse to enter into any agreements with them unless they are convinced of the serious intentions of the organizers and motorcycle fraternity to control this disgusting behaviour within their own ranks.

Mr. Chairman, I have listened with great interest to what previous speakers have said and I want to sympathize with the hon. member for Krugersdorp who has just sat down in regard to the problems experienced in respect of the so-called Rhino Rally. I want to say that we breed rhinos in Natal and, for the benefit of the CP I also want to say that they are white rhinos. [Interjections.] We manage to keep them in captivity there but, believe you me, when they go on the rampage, they can do a fantastic amount of damage.

The hon. member for Krugersdorp also referred to the AWB and I should like to tell the hon. the Minister of Law and Order that we on these benches are heartened by a comment that was made by the hon. the Prime Minister recently when he said that in no way would he tolerate either communism or neo-Nazism in this country. That gives us tremendous heart. I am sure that with that statement the thinking of people of that nature will be put to rights.

I want to associate myself with the hon. member for Berea in one respect and I want to ask the hon. the Minister to bear with me, but I must say I do not think that this is the right way to do things. I left my office this morning 13 minutes before the commencement of this debate and at that time this report had not yet been placed on my desk. I usually come down to the Chamber early because we have a Whips’ meeting here.

I apologize. I shall discuss the matter later.

I shall be pleased if the hon. the Minister will do so, Sir, because this is definitely not good enough.

It is said that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. The hon. the Minister of Police has now become the Minister of Law and Order. I am not suggesting that he has any particular aura or aroma about him but I do think that if he wishes to retain his rose-like image he must address himself to a very, very urgent problem and that is the constant and on-going problem of the recruiting, the training and—if I may use a new word—the retaining of a first class Police Force. Without such a Force there cannot be any law and order. I emphasize the question of “retaining” because we are still faced with the situation where we are losing trained men in the market-place. I think that the crunch is coming in respect of recruitment in adequate numbers and I think that one of the contributory factors towards that crunch will possibly be the envisaged Defence Amendment Bill which is going to be dealt with by this House within the next few weeks. I think that there are certain facets of that Bill which may materially affect the recruiting pattern in the Police Force, and I do not think the hon. the Minister is going to be able to rely quite so heavily on young men who wish to do their national service and whatever follows upon it in the South African Police; in other words, serve the S.A. Police in lieu of a defence stint. I think that there are going to be losses in that area. I do not think that the Police Force can look forward to what they have enjoyed in this regard in the past. I believe that we have once again to give urgent attention to presenting a career in the Police Force as being one that is attractive to young men and women of all races. Incidentally, in this regard I want to say that I am delighted to see that Indian females have recently been recruited into the Police Force. This is a great breakthrough and it is marvellous to see. I think we can accept the fact that many dedicated young people are drawn into the ranks of the Police Force and, I think, we can accept the fact even more that there are a tremendous number of dedicated policemen in our Police Force who have been there for a number of years. However, can we honestly tell ourselves that their take-home pay is adequate? Can we say to ourselves fairly and squarely that these people are getting a fair share of the money available at the end of each month? I do not believe that this is so.

We have had a great deal of debate today on the image of the Police Force. I want to say that I do not agree what has been said by the hon. member for Berea because an image is very much like beauty—it is all in the eye of the beholder. I had a wonderful friend in the Traffic Department in Durban. He was an outstanding chap until he gave me a ticket! All of a sudden his image went straight out the window. [Interjections.] This is what I believe “image” is all about. You know, if I look at the image of some of the hon. members in this House …

[Inaudible.]

I think I hear a cricket! When I look at the image of some hon. members in this House, I shudder! Do I hear the cricket again? No. This is what “image” is all about. It is a difficult and unenviable task to present an image that is acceptable to all. This is an impossible task. I believe, however, that the biggest image improver, if there is such a thing, is a well-motivated and well-paid Police Force. That, Sir, is the biggest image improver of the lot. I am therefore delighted that new pay scales in respect of the S.A. Police have just been introduced, but I am not so delighted that the hon. the Minister, for some reason best known to himself, still maintains this air of secrecy about police pay. However, like all inquisitive people, we were able to get hold of these scales and to examine the percentage increases that have been allocated.

Do you have all the information?

I have the information here that I managed to obtain.

What then are you complaining about?

Because this is not the way in which this information should be made available. We see that the increases across the board are generally between 15% and 15,5%. The hon. the Minister must allow me to finish. I can see he is getting excited.

I certainly am going to get excited.

In the lower brackets there are very welcome increases, with percentages ranging between 25% and 35%.

Is that for this year?

That has just come into effect recently. This, I believe, is going to encourage recruits, but the increases in the higher grades are in my view not adequate to ensure the retention of trained and often dedicated men who leave the service for no other reason than their pressing financial circumstances. What keeps the policeman in the Force? The one thing that keeps him in the Force is a happy home, and a happy home is the one that can pay its bills. This is what it is all about, Sir. We can have free housing; we can supply uniforms and all sorts of perks, but we have to be able to pay our bills at the end of the month. I once again, therefore, make the appeal to the hon. the Minister to make every effort to have police pay and conditions of service removed from the aegis of the Commission for State Administration. This is an annual, a hardy annual. We have said time and again that the Police Force and the Defence Force should not be bound by these pay regulations, and should not be categorized in such a way that comparisons are always made. We sincerely believe that this should not be the case. The S.A. Police Force should be an autonomous body in all respects, and in order to succeed and grow it must be free from the shackles of what was known as the Public Service Commission and is now the Commission for Administration. Having done that, I believe the hon. the Minister, the Commissioner of Police, in fact everybody along the line, will then be able to say: “Here is an attractive career for a young man”. I further believe that such a step would give to the S.A. Police the status that it richly deserves. I believe that this can be done by removing it from the shackles that I have described.

In the minute left to me I should like to raise another issue, and that is the matter of border bonus, if one can call it that, or border pay for the S.A. Police. I merely want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the S.A. Police are being treated the same as, for example, the S.A. Railway Police. Are they receiving the same sort of bonus at the end of a border stint as the S.A. Railway Police are receiving? I see the hon. the Minister is shaking his head. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have little fault to find with what the hon. member for Umhlanga had to say. In my opinion, his speech was constructive. The aspect of salaries which he referred to, will be dealt with by other hon. members on this side, as well as by the hon. the Minister, and I shall therefore not give any further attention to it.

Firstly, I should like to express my gratitude to the hon. the Minister, his staff and the Commissioner for all the assistance we receive from this particularly pleasant department. I also extend my best wishes to the hon. the Minister in his handling of the portfolio as it will exist in future. I wish him everything of the best in this regard. I also express my gratitude to the men who look after the security and safety of hon. members in this building, as well as in Acacia Park. I do not think we always realize what great sacrifices are made in this regard. [Interjections.]

Before giving attention to the speech of the hon. member for Berea, I wish to give my wholehearted support to what the hon. member for Krugersdorp has already said about motor-cycles and the motor-cycle rallies he referred to. At this stage it is really becoming a problem and is a matter which should definitely be investigated. It was recently my privilege to spend a long weekend at Pilgrim’s Rest. There we have a lovely, peaceful public resort under the control of the Transvaal Provincial Administration, but that weekend I unfortunately had the experience of literally hundreds of these men and their female companions converging on that resort. They rode around on the back wheels of their motor-cycles in that peaceful little town, making life unpleasant for everyone. Everyone was afraid. I immediately went to make inquiries, but there were really not enough policemen to control that situation. These fellows walk around armed with chains. They are under the influence of alcohol. We are dealing with a real problem here. This is a matter which should have very high priority and which should receive attention. I should like to concur with the hon. member for Krugersdorp in this regard.

The hon. member for Berea had a great deal to say about the image of the S.A. Police. I respectfully suggest that that hon. member should try to see things from another angle, for I think he would then see a completely different image. The position from which one views something, has a lot to do with the conception one forms. It makes a difference if one looks at something from the back, instead of from the side. I wish to assure the hon. member that the image of the S.A. Police is not as negative as he wishes to imply.

As for the positive ideas he expressed, I believe that cognizance will definitely be taken of them. The hon. the Minister and the Commissioner of Police are continually striving to improve the image of the police. I recently exprienced this again in Soweto where Brig. Van Eyck and a person such as Major Masibuku are going out of their way to build up a positive image of the police. This is all being done to let the foreigner and the visitor to Soweto, as well as the inhabitants, see the fine work that is being done by the Police Force. A high premium is placed on this, and a great deal is being done to achieve positive results in this regard. A great deal is in fact being done to build up the image of the police. Sometimes I am concerned about the fact that in doing this work, these people have to make do with private funds. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would not consider obtaining contributions from the State to assist this image-building process. [Interjections.]

I should like to refer to the results of recent research, which I am sorry that the hon. member for Berea did not have at his disposal, for then he would not have sounded negative notes as well. Research was carried out by the Rand Afrikaans University into the attitude of Black and White pupils towards the S.A. Police, an exercize in political socialization studies. Those who worked on this were H. J. Kotzé, Heyneke, Louwrens and Prinsloo. They observed, inter alia, that the police formed the first line of defence in combating revolutionary activities. Furthermore, they state—

For the sake of interest, they also looked at other reports, reports from America as well as elsewhere. In the reports of East and Dennis, 1969, and of Rogers and Taylor, 1971, in which details of socialization studies are contained, it was found that the attitudes of Black people in the USA towards the political system were positive, but negative towards the police as agents of that particular system. Now it is very interesting to note that this particular study could not support the findings of the study in the USA, and that it really contradicted those findings to a large extent.

The study is an effort to fill the gap in empirical data concerning attitudes to the police by studying the attitudes of White and Black matriculants. Under these circumstances, a comparable political socialization study was also made. This study was made during 1980. The attitudes of the various groups were noted. Altogether 505 respondents were questioned—285 White matriculants and 220 Black matriculants. The questionnaires they were given concerning their attitudes to the police contained, inter alia, the following questions—

1. 1. Indien ek hulp verlang, kan ek op die polisie Staat maak om my te help.
2. 2. ’n Polisieman voer siegs sy opdrag uit. As hy sy pligte nakom, kan hy nie geblameer word vir wat hy doen nie.

I wish to begin by dealing with these two statements. To the first of the two statements, 49,9% of the Black respondents replied that they could in fact rely on the assistance of the police. 14,8% did not express an opinion, while 35,3% of the respondents gave replies. 66,7% of the White subjects said that they could in fact rely on police assistance, while 22,1% said that they could not.

However, a third question was also put. Before I discuss this further, however, I just wish to point out a finding with regard to the second statement. It was claimed that the attitude of the English-speaking people to the police was enlightening, particularly in view of the fact that a much lower percentage of English-speaking people are involved in the Police Force, and that this can to a large extent be considered to be one of the negative aspects of the interpretation of the role of the police, particularly by members of the English-speaking community.

This brings me to the third question. The following statement was made—

1. 3. ’n Mens moet altyd wette gehoorsaam.

37,9% of the Black respondents replied that they agreed with this statement. 43,7% of the respondents were in disagreement, and as far as the White respondents were concerned, 59,3% agreed with the statement and 30,5% were opposed to it. As far as the replies of the Black respondents were concerned, it is particularly important to take cognizance of the negative views in respect of the Police Force among the majority of Black pupils. In that respect, therefore, there is room for improvement.

With regard to the statement that people should always obey the laws, a very interesting finding was recorded in this report. 59,9% of the Black respondents agreed with the statement. This demonstrates an exceptional discipline and approach on the part of these people. In this regard, 86,7% of the White respondents supported the statement. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise to give the hon. member for Roodepoort the opportunity of completing his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for this opportunity. Unfortunately, I cannot refer to the entire report, but it is indeed an excellent report and I wish to recommend it to the hon. member for Berea. I shall make it available to him.

Let us consider the incidents of terrorism during the past few years. In this regard, I should like to associate myself with what the hon. member for Verwoerdburg has already said concerning Gen. Visser’s statement that we should expect an escalation in this regard. The Department of Defence has also mentioned that incidents of terrorism have shown an increase of 200% during the last six months of 1981, compared with those that occurred during 1980. However, let us look at the number of sabotage attacks from the police point of view. I should like to give the figures. In 1980, there were nine incidents, in 1981 there were 33 incidents, and to date in 1982, there have been five incidents. The persons responsible in six of the nine incidents in 1980 have been apprehended and the persons responsible in 12 of the 33 incidents in 1981 have been apprehended. On the basis of information which the police have obtained, they know at this stage precisely who the other people are who were responsible for these deeds, and they are doing a wonderful job in this regard. I have been told that there has been no escalation in the incidents of the insurgence of small groups who have to carry out sabotage operations. We wish to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his men on the wonderful work they are doing in this respect. A graphic example of this, is the fine effort which was made to arrest the four men in Pretoria. We feel that effective follow-up work was done and that security measures were taken immediately, and this gives rise to the confidence which one, as a member of the public, has in the Government and the wonderful work which the police are doing in this regard. Under these circumstances, our businessmen can with perfect confidence continue to make a positive contribution of building up the economy in our country.

In conclusion, I should just like to mention that in the past I have often spoken about the use of tape-recording machines in police trials in order to save time for the senior men who have to take part in these trials, as they have to write out the questions and replies by hand. The hon. the Minister has already indicated in the past that there is no prohibition in this regard, and that attorneys may obtain permission from the presiding officer to make use of tape recording facilities so that a full record of the trial can be obtained. However, I wish to respectfully suggest that this does not solve the problem of saving the time of many senior police officers. However, there is a second consideration. A full record, which can only be provided by a tape recording machine, enables the Commissioner to carry out his powers of review in terms of section 9(9) of the Police Act far more effectively. I therefore wish to respectfully suggest that the considerable costs attached to the provision and maintenance of tape recording machines ought to be quite justified if one takes into consideration how much of the time of a senior trial officer this would save.

This brings me to a further important aspect. It would also give the accused police officer greater peace of mind if a full trial record were available to the Commissioner. The effect of the cross-examination must be lost in a question-and-answer transcription which has to be written down by hand.

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Roodepoort will excuse me if I do not comment on his speech, because I have a lot of other matters to raise. That was a very interesting little survey that he read out to us, but I am not so sure that I would be just as pleased with the result as he appears to be, because if I heard correctly, one of the figures he mentioned indicated that something like 33% of Black people do not feel that they could approach the police in the case of any difficulty. I feel that is rather a high figure.

I think that up to now we have had a fair amount of competition between the CP and the NP for the votes of the Police Force. I am sure that the police are very pleased at all the pleasant remarks which have been passed about them. [Interjections.]

Do you think we are going to attack the police?

I want to tell the hon. member for Verwoerdburg that I intend to carry on as I always have done in Committee of Supply, using the opportunity to expose sins of omission and commission.

But you had better behave yourself today.

I shall continue to do so not only under this Vote, but under all Votes, because that is the duty of the Opposition in Committee of Supply.

Including unfair criticism.

I have a feeling that the majority of members of the Police Force are glad about this. After all, it is only the minority who commit these sins of omission and commission and it is they who give the police a bad name. I believe that the majority of members of the Police Force, who behave very well indeed, are extremely pleased when such people are disciplined. I shall go on hopefully along those lines anyway.

I want to say a word or two about the report which was virtually tabled as we walked into the House this morning. It is a very pretty-looking report. There are lots of nice pictures in it and there is the very interesting information that a police dog in Durban has been awarded a medal. That is all very nice, but unfortunately this report compares very badly indeed with previous reports of the Department of Police. The previous departmental report had a wealth of information in it. It had in it statistics which I believe criminologists find extremely useful. Certainly, I for one, have followed this particular portfolio in the House for very many years, have found it very useful indeed to be able to compare statistics to see what is happening in various categories of crime and in regard to the various offences and infringements of the law. We have nothing like that in the new annual report. I very much hope that next year not only will the report be timeously tabled, but that the department will return to its old and very useful method of presenting these tremendously useful statistics. I hope that the hon. the Minister will look into that. I know it entails a lot of work, but I think that these statistics are worth while for everybody concerned, everybody who is interested in this particular Vote and in criminology generally. With the aid of these statistics one could follow the decline in the infringements of the law; for instance, the decline in cases reported with regard to curfew regulations or drunkenness. As regards drunkenness there was a tremendous drop from 1977-’78 when there were nearly a quarter of a million infringements classified under “drunkenness” to roughly 34 500 cases in 1979-’80. I should like to know what the trend is. Has the downward trend in the incidence of drunkenness continued and, if so, why? These all form very interesting subjects for research. Possibly the hon. member for Roodepoort could hand such information on to RAU, a department of which would, I think, conduct such research. I wanted to make that point.

Now I want to turn to the obvious subject I want to raise. I have raised it in the House year after year with successive Ministers of Justice and I now want to raise it under this Vote with the hon. the Minister of Law and Order as this is now his responsibility. I refer to the whole question of the implementation of security legislation. I am well aware that there will be a Bill before the House shortly which will provide an opportunity to discuss the actual legislation as such, but a subject not mentioned in the Bill at all—and unfortunately this was to my mind a glaring omission in the Rabie Commission’s report—is that of methods of interrogation used by the security police. Twice before in the House, once in the no-confidence debate and once in the debate on the Rabie Commission’s report, I asked the hon. the Minister of Law and Order to give his assurances to the House that degrading, inhuman and cruel methods of interrogation are not being used on detainees, who are kept away from everybody, who have no access to legal advice and for whom intervention by the courts is completely excluded. The first time the question was put, hon. members may remember that the hon. the Minister gave the assurance that every precaution was taken to ensure that such detainees were well cared for, that they could not harm themselves and that nobody else could harm them. We know the sad sequel to that. I am not going to go any further into that.

However, now something else has happened. The Detainees’ Parents Support Committee has presented the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Minister of Justice with a detailed memorandum which set out some very serious allegations indeed as to the reprehensible methods that are used on detainees by the Security Police when interrogating these people. These include the very methods that I asked about at the beginning of February this year. I asked whether the Security Police used methods such as hooding, i.e. placing a hood over the head of the detainee—for two reasons: firstly to bring about a state of near suffocation and, secondly, to hide the identity of the persons conducting the interrogation—deprivation of food and sleep, electric shock treatment, subjection to noise and interrogating people while they are naked. They also, I might add, mention psychological assaults. I am not talking about solitary confinement. We all know that that in itself is a grievous form of psychological assault. It is in fact a form of torture. However, there are other forms of psychological assault, for example threats that are made to detainees. I am going to mention one which was mentioned by the father of a detainee who stated that unless he persuaded his daughter to give evidence against a fellow detainee she was going to be deprived of the care of her seven year-old, mentally retarded child. I am referring to Hanchen Koornhof-Fitzgerald, who was allegedly threatened that she would lose the care of her child unless she gave evidence.

Very conciliatory!

Yes, very conciliatory!

What is your authority for that statement?

That statement was made by the father of this girl. He was approached by the police and told that unless he persuaded his daughter to give evidence against a fellow detainee, she would be deprived of the care of her child.

When and where did he make the statement?

The statement appeared in the newspaper. I shall give the hon. the Minister the reference after I have completed my speech. Now, if that is true, I believe that it is absolutely disgraceful.

Do you think it is true?

The allegations have so far been indignantly denied. I think the hon. the Minister himself, the Minister of Justice and the Commissioner of Police have denied these allegations, the Commissioner of Police stating that he will order an extensive investigation into the allegations. I like this. It is all very robust and forthright, but I want to tell the hon. the Minister that unless that extensive, investigation is completely independent and is conducted from outside the system, there will be no point in it. There is no point in policemen setting themselves up in judgment of other policemen. We want something completely outside of the system, e.g. an independent inquiry headed by possibly a judge. Anyway, it should be a completely independent inquiry conducted by completely objective persons and not, as I have said, by the police themselves, for then such an inquiry will have no credibility whatsoever.

I have to tell the hon. the Minister, whether he or any one of us likes it or not, that there is a widespread belief that these methods are in fact being used, because in case after case of terrorism, sabotage and public violence that come before the courts the allegation is often made that the accused person has in fact been subjected to the sort of treatment that I have mentioned. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise to give the hon. member the opportunity to complete her speech. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member, and I am so sorry for the other hon. members! Further proof of this is that there have been claims that have been settled out of court by the Government, claims of assault lodged by relatives of detainees, detainees or ex-detainees. I can quote a number of cases in which the courts have refused to accept admissions, I should say confessions, of guilt which have been extracted under duress or to admit evidence of that kind. I have mentioned in the House before that the British Government was at one time under attack for using the very methods that I have referred to. I believe the British Government was charged in the European Court of Human Rights—and pleaded guilty—having already discontinued these practices. Since that time a commission of inquiry was appointed, the Bennett Commission, and it recommended a decided code of conduct for the carrying on of interrogation of detainees. I also want to remind hon. members that in Northern Ireland persons cannot be held for longer than seven days and then they have to be released. They are not kept in solitary confinement and there is access to legal advice. Nevertheless interrogations are now conducted under monitoring by TV circuits or by means of spy-holes.

Go and read your report again, please!

I have read the Bennett Report, and I know what they recommended. I can also assure the hon. the Minister that I have made quite extensive inquiries about this particular matter. First of all, I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the extensive investigation that has been recommended by the Commissioner of Police will be conducted by independent objective persons outside the system. None of us wants a grim hunting-down of ex-detainees, many of whom have already been warned not to open their mouths under threat of being re-detained, because there is nothing in legislation to prevent these people from being detained over and over again. Secondly, will the hon. the Minister introduce a proper code of conduct to govern methods of interrogation? If not, why not? I have already seen regulations which were printed in the Maisels report, which I hope the hon. the Minister has been able to study since I gave it to him last year. Police instructions were published since I gave it to him last year. Police instructions were published in that report, but they are very meagre and they certainly do not cover a proper monitoring system as has been introduced in Northern Ireland.

We have to think of other remedies. There is nothing in the Bill that is forthcoming that is going to provide us with any comfort whatsoever. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he intends introducing an amendment to the Police Act this year, an amendment to section 6, to suspend the six-month period of prescription for civil claims by detainees against the police. The Rabie Commission recommended this. It was not a full recommendation, but the commission asked the hon. the Minister to give this matter his full and earnest consideration.

They only made the comment; they did not recommend it.

No, they recommended that the hon. the Minister examine it properly and that he give it his full consideration, because they pointed out that it was obviously unfair to preclude a man from suing for assault when he has been in gaol for the six months period. Supposing he were assaulted at the beginning of that period, if he was kept in gaol for longer than six months—and, believe me, many detainees have been kept in gaol for longer than six months—he is precluded from a civil action against the police. This is palpably unfair. I should therefore like to know whether the hon. the Minister intends to introduce any amendment to the Police Act in this respect.

My third question is to ask about the actual implementation of the existing section of the Terrorism Act. Did the hon. the Minister believe that this section envisaged indefinite solitary confinement for persons being kept in isolation?

Which section are you referring to?

Section 6 of the Terrorism Act. Did the hon. the Minister envisage that this section was going to be used for an indefinite period of solitary confinement or isolation or being kept alone? I know there are technical terms under the Prisons Act, and the hon. the Minister knows that under the Prisons Act keeping a person in isolation is only used in the most extreme cases and then only for a short period and then only again extended with the express permission of the Commissioner of Prisons. Further than that, I think it is for more than a period of three months, only with the express permission of the hon. the Minister.

Plave you not read the Bill that is on the Order Paper?

Yes, but this does not help very much. There is a Board of Review but the hon. the Minister does not have to take the slightest notice of it. He does not have to accept their recommendations; so what is the good of that? It is no good at all. I have read and studied the Bill, probably in more detail than the hon. the Minister. The section he is talking about does not apply to section 29, the new section that takes over section 6 of the Terrorism Act. The hon. the Minister cannot quiz me on this Bill, because I have read it backwards, forwards and sideways and I do not like it from any angle. I want to know whether it was ever envisaged that this measure would be used in the widespread manner that it is being used. The hon. the Minister himself has told me that more than 4 000 people have been held under section 6 since it was first introduced in 1967. That is a lot of “terrorists in the bush”, except that most of them, thousands of them, were schoolchildren arrested during the Soweto riots. Those are the “terrorists in the bush”.

That just shows how necessary the provision is.

That hon. member is supposed to be a professor of law …

A doctor of law.

Well, a doctor then. That is even worse. My heart sinks when I realize that it is through people with this sort of legal mentality that we have to legislate. I also want to know whether the hon. the Minister is aware of and approves of the fact that people can be held for months on end without being interrogated. They are just locked up, to cool off presumably. Detainees and ex-detainees have told me that they were cross-examined for 15 minutes when they were arrested and that they were just left without any interrogation for the remainder of the time which they were kept in detention. Sir, I say the way in which this is being implemented is a gross abuse of the law. It is bad enough in all conscience if it were implemented in the way in which it was supposed to be implemented. That is bad enough, and I was the only person who voted against that in this House in 1967 because I knew perfectly well how these things lead to abuse. I knew perfectly well how suddenly it could become the norm, instead of being used only in the most extraordinary circumstances.

[Inaudible.]

I will tell that hon. doctor of law why this becomes the norm. It is much simpler just to grab people and lock them up than to have to go through the normal processes of habeas corpus whereby a charge has first to be proved against somebody.

Over the last year over 300 people—I think the figure I got from the hon. the Minister was 321—were locked up. We have also been told about two conspiracy trials which are going to start soon. I have been told that in November, December, January, February, March and April. We are now in May, and so far, as far as I can work out, only three people of those who were arrested in September last year have been charged. Three have been charged, but there are no charge sheets. Even now there are no charge sheets.

You are very poorly informed.

No, I am not poorly informed. On the contrary I am very well informed. Another three detainees were charged yesterday and I do not know whether charges were framed there or not. One of them is the unfortunate Gqweta, who has had six different terms of detention…

You are just exaggerating now.

Am I exaggerating? I do not think so. The hon. the Minister’s own English-medium paper, The Citizen, said so, and surely he cannot say that they were exaggerating. I want to know more about this “big conspiracy trial.” I think the House is entitled to know and I also think the country is entitled to know because we have all been kept on tenterhooks now while these wretched people, over 300 of them, have been locked up and looked after by the hon. the Minister “in a conciliatory and sensible way”, as he put it. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Houghton has raised her usual complaints and has disparaged the Police Force and the laws of the land. It can be proved that she raises the same complaints every year. I should like to put a question to the hon. member: Are any of the members of her family in the Police Force?

No.

No, of course not. That is why the hon. member adopts this attitude.

I had a relative fighting in World War II. Did you have a relative in the Army fighting the war?

This shows us exactly why that hon. member is adopting this attitude. [Interjections.] The hon. member attacked us today and put certain questions with regard to the methods of interrogation. The Rabie Commission certainly did not say anything in this regard. However, I wish to quote what the hon. member told us two years ago with regard to a certain person who was alleged to have been assaulted while being interrogated. The hon. member practically told the hon. the Minister: “I am warning you; a tremendous court case against you is imminent.” I now wish to ask the hon. member for Houghton what has happened to that court case. Choosing my words very carefully, I wish to say that the hon. member for Houghton merely makes these statements to give the Press an opportunity of publishing such statements overseas. That is the reason why these allegations are made here.

That cuts no ice with me. That is no answer.

It is true. I wish to put a question to the hon. member for Houghton and she must reply. I shall leave the other matters aside, but I want the hon. member to reply to us in this respect. I want her to reply to us in respect of what she said previously during the discussion of the Police Vote in the Standing Committee The hon. member for Houghton said that the police were wasting their time. She said that the police should forget about the court cases they were taking to court, and in column 650 of the Hansard of the Standing Committee she said, inter alia—

These are the words of the hon. member for Houghton which I am quoting now.

What did I say about the pass laws?

What else must the poor police do? It is their job. [Interjections.] If only the hon. member would stop cackling, we could continue with this matter. In column 651 the hon. member for Houghton also stated—

And how!

I should be pleased if the hon. member for Houghton would be quiet for a moment. She went on to say—

Do you agree?

I wish to state that the hon. member for Houghton is the cause of this being published overseas. This is the kind of debate which is conducted by hon. members opposite.

I now wish to get back to what I mentioned at the outset. The hon. member for Houghton put certain questions to the hon. the Minister on 14 May 1979 with regard to a certain person who was being detained. She asked the Minister whether he knew how that person had been assaulted, upon which the hon. the Minister asked her how she knew about it. The hon. member then replied that there was a sworn statement in this regard. I wish to say that until now, that sworn statement has never been submitted. Moreover, the person who was allegedly tortured so severely has not appeared either. The case was simply dropped, but they achieved what they wanted, as that case was reported overseas as being the way in which this base South African Police Force operates. This was aimed at the S.A. Police as well as at the hon. the Ministers responsible for the S.A. Police from time to time, and at no one else. I wish to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not time that those allegations be investigated, and if they are found to be false allegations, action should be taken. I am very sorry to do this, but I must ask it.

I wish to say that we have a Police Force of which we can be proud, a Police Force of which we can truly be proud. Now the hon. member for Berea has asked that we should enhance the image of the police. How can we enhance the image of the Police Force if hon. members of the official Opposition act in this way? Can we enhance it? This is hypocrisy and nothing else. This is why it is being asked that the image should be enhanced. I wish to ask him to enhance the image of the S.A. Police in Natal as well, as we need it.

Do you want to cover everything up?

That hon. member should rather be quiet. He will have a turn to take part in the debate.

We must enhance the image of our present Police Force, as I must say—I have said this on a previous occasion and I wish to reiterate it—it is a force of friends. This is what we should do: We should make friends of the S.A. Police. What do these people do? Have those hon. members ever ascertained what the members of the S.A. Police do? They sacrifice everything; there is nothing they do not sacrifice, wives and children too. Many of those wives remain at home when their husbands go out to do their duty. He goes to do his duty, and she does not know when he will return. She does not know when she will see him again; nor does she know whether she will ever see him alive again. I see the hon. member for Berea is nodding assent, but why does he not say that? Why does he just try to undermine?

I say so too.

Then the hon. member should say so to the hon. member for Houghton. Why does she not say so? [Interjections.]

The policeman’s task is a very varied one. I maintain that no other profession is so multifaceted. Nowhere else is the same degree of versatility and discretion required. I think the hon. members opposite will agree with this too. Our Police Force is our first line of defence and they are the protectors of life and property. The hon. member Mr. Theunissen said that they were also the protectors of life in the world of drugs. They are the peacemakers, but they are also the prosecutors of criminals and the wardens of prisoners until they are sentenced. I could go on in this vein. That is why I make the request that we make friends of the Force to an increasing extent.

Let me proceed. In similar debates during the past two years, it has been pointed out that members of the Force are underpaid. We all agreed on this, as it is true. What has happened in the interim? They have had an increase, and to me this is wonderful. I think I should leave this matter at that for the moment; I shall return to it at a later stage.

The recruitment of members for the Force shows that during the period 1 May 1980 to 30 April 1981, 1 316 White men were recruited, while from 1 May 1981 to 30 April 1982, 1 694 were recruited. In the case of White women, the figures are 288 and 317 respectively. What is illuminating is that between 1 May 1980 and 30 April 1981, there were 338 cases of re-employment, as against 500 between 1 May 1981 and 30 April 1982. This proves that the people are happy and content as a result of the salary increases announced by the hon. the Minister and the department. Those who resigned, are rejoining the Force in increasing numbers.

In the minute at my disposal, I wish to come back briefly to the matter I raised earlier. This is the case of Peter Jones which has already been referred to and against which we have been warned. In 1965 there were approximately 120 people who gave notice that they intended to lay civil charges, but only seven cases eventually reached the courts. An award was only made in one case. This surely proves the falsity of the rumours which are spread. Despite this, it is sanctimoniously being claimed: I know what I am talking about, as I have sworn statements. I request that should something like this come before this House in future, those statements be shown to us.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to speak after the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, who clearly showed how the hon. members of the official Opposition are trying to succeed in disparaging South Africa’s Police Force. I wish to confirm every word the hon. member said here.

I wish to discuss a different aspect of the Police Force, and confine myself in particular to community involvement in the maintenance of law and order in our country. In this regard, I wish to refer to the Reserve Police Force in particular, and I wish to sketch its background briefly. At the moment there are 8 313 active White reservists, and if the figure perhaps differs from that which appears in the annual report, I must point out that I have the latest figures. It is also interesting to see how these reservists are progressing. At the moment, there are already eight of them who hold the rank of lieutenant-colonel, while there are 21 majors, 52 captains, 86 lieutenants, 409 deputy officers and 1 082 sergeants.

Nor is it only the Whites who perform service as police reservists. People of colour, too, have shown a great deal of interest in this, and at present there are 1 186 Blacks, 1 267 Coloureds and 386 Asians serving as reservists. Moreover, their rank structure compares favourably with that of the White reservists.

When a reservist enters the Reserve Force and takes up duty, he has exactly the same powers as a serving permanent member of the S.A. Police Force, and in addition he is held responsible for his own actions. When he is off duty, he becomes an ordinary citizen again.

The training of these men takes place at their local police stations and extends over a period of four to six months. However, this training is not continuous, but consists of a few hours every week. In the larger centres, where there are, of course, larger groups of these men, they are trained at one centre.

The reservists undergo theoretical as well as practical training and they also undergo a course in the use and safe handling of firearms.

Depending on his group, the reservist must be prepared to do almost any kind of police work, for example, to work in charge offices, to go out with patrol vehicles, to carry out clearing-up operations, etc. An active reservist is expected to do at least four hours service per month. This is, in fact, expecting very little of him, particularly if one takes into account that he does not even have to be on duty for four consecutive hours. If he prefers, he may do one hour’s duty a night.

Besides this, training camps are also arranged for the reservists. This is given high priority. These camps extend over a period of three to four days, and I can bear witness to the fact that the number of reservists attending these camps is increasing annually.

Bearing in mind the tremendous contribution made by the reservists with their police work and other fine services, camps are specially offered for reservists from the rural areas where they take courses in counter-insurgency. From August to November 1981, 78 reservists in the Northern and Eastern Transvaal and Northern Natal divisions took these courses. This training extends over a period of four months and is divided into periods of four days a month. From April 1982, further training in this regard is being offered to 90 reservists in the Western Transvaal, Northern Cape and the Orange Free State.

It is at the insistence of the reservists that arrangements are being made to send a reservist division to the border. However, they will only do 30 days’ duty there.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, before business was suspended, I was giving an outline of the training programme for police reservists. I should just like to add that the officers in the reserve force are, in fact, equipped with 9 mm pistols.

Furthermore, I wish to say a few words about transport. These people have to incur expenses to report for duty, and they are compensated for this. They also receive compensation when they have to pay for meals while performing service. In general, I may just mention that members of the reserve force have once again rendered an extremely valuable service to the country and the community during the past financial year. It is also clear that members of the public have a high regard for members of the reserve force.

Furthermore, there has been a great deal of interest on the part of women who wish to join the reserve force. This was approved on 9 February 1982 and since then, 120 applications from women who wish to be trained as reservists have been approved. According to the information at my disposal, I can assure hon. members that there is a tremendous amount of interest among women in being trained as reservists. At the moment, women are used only for administrative purposes in the reserve force. However, consideration is being given to use them more meaningfully in future.

Then there is another division of the reservists I wish to refer to. These are the junior reservists, which was established at the end of 1979, when they assisted in the tracing and destruction of dagga. Accordingly, a Junior Reserve Police Force was established which is run on the following basis. Only boys of 16 years and older qualify for admission to the reserve force. Admission is entirely voluntary, with the written permission of the applicant’s legal parent or guardian. He also has to be physically fit. Their services will only be used outside of the school context and during school holidays. There is no remuneration for services rendered, but the provision of transport and equipment will be at State expense. Uniforms are not provided, but a visible mark of identification will be carried. Proper supervision, control and discipline will be maintained at all times, while care will be taken that members do not get into dangerous situations. Training in basic police duties is given, and the services of school leavers who are members of the Junior Reserve Police Force, and who have to do military training, will be immediately terminated to enable them to do their training.

At the moment there are 275 boys registered as junior reservists, and I can assure hon. members that those boys are doing extremely important work.

Then there is just one other matter I wish to mention. Due to the amendments which have now been effected with regard to compulsory military training, a person may join the police reservists after he has completed his military service, and such duty will also be regarded as duty which he performed in the Defence Force. In conclusion, I wish to mention that when I express my gratitude to these men and women today, I am sure that I am doing so on behalf of every hon. member of this House, as well as on behalf of every member of the public at large.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to address myself first to the hon. the Minister. I want to put it to him that if the hon. member for Berea was hard done by by the annual report of the Department of Law and Order, the hon. the Minister should have a look at my copy of that report. I want to show it to him. The cover looks quite normal. Page 2 and page 3 are both completely blank.

Why do you not get yourself another one?

Pages 7 and 8 are also completely blank, as are the rest of the pages to follow. [Interjections.] In fact, there is one page that is printed.

It is all you will be able to understand!

Discrimination! [Interjections.]

It is all sub judice! [Interjections.]

The only printed page in this copy of the report is page 7. All I can read about, therefore, is the dog school. [Interjections.]

That is all that you are able to understand! [Interjections.]

Be it as it may, I leave the matter there. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana made some attacks on this party. [Interjections.] He said that one of the troubles was that the members of this party had no friends in the Police Force, did not know any people in the Police Foce, did not know their families and did not themselves have family members who were members of the Police Force. I just want to tell him, however, that in my case that is not so, because for a start my grandfather spent his whole life in the S.A. Police Force. He was Deputy Commissioner for Grahamstown and later in South West Africa. He is not the only member of my family who was a policeman either.

That was still one of the good Pitmans.

He was a Kirkpatrick. In my work as well I have spent a lifetime doing criminal work and therefore being involved with the activities of the police. I can therefore sympathize with the police, particularly now that they are very short-staffed. I also believe that their pay is still far too low. I also sympathize with them because of the laws they have to enforce. They are undermined, I believe, by the laws they have to enforce on this country.

Hear, hear!

The blame for that, of course, attaches to the hon. the Minister and the Government and not to the police. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana made a very serious and unfounded accusation against the hon. member for Houghton when he said that she is harming South Africa by criticizing things like section 6. Let me therefore put a question to the hon. the Minister: What does more harm to South Africa, the deaths in detention of people like Biko and Aggett, or trying to persuade the Government to put its house in order?

The slurs you cast.

In fact, the hon. member for Berea was also criticized, yet he made a very constructive speech about the image of the police. He was, in fact, concerned about the image of the police and certainly wants to help to enhance that image. When, for example, he made the point that they have a certain image amongst certain groups—e.g. a certain image amongst the Whites and a certain image amongst the Blacks—and went on to point out that the Black people tended to perceive them as oppressors, what he was actually saying was that if that is how they are perceived by the Black people, it is not because of the police as such, but because of the laws they have to enforce against the Black people.

I also want to deal with detention, in particular with the effect of certain provisions and the effect of giving the executive—in this case of course the police—excessive and draconian powers. I have here a long list of the names of people in detention at the moment.

You know them very well of course!

No, I do not actually think I know any of these people but I do have a long list of their names here. [Interjections.] I also have a list of their occupations, and I see that there are scholars, clerks, students, lawyers, lecturers and trade unionists. These people are not terrorists in the bush. They are not the terrorists that we were told, in 1967, were to be the targets of this Act.

But you said you did not know them.

They are, in the main, people who were arrested and detained at their places of work, at their homes and in the cities of South Africa, many of them hard-working trade unionists devoting long hours to helping the workers whom they represent. When the S.A. Police gave evidence to the Rabie Commission they justified the need for detention without trial on two grounds, and this is cited in the Rabie Commission’s report, paragraph 10.30. They said that information obtained under section 6 was needed for two purposes, and they indicated what those purposes were. Firstly it was needed to prevent terroristic activities and, secondly, to enable the police to institute criminal proceedings against terrorists and saboteurs. Those were the two reasons that the police gave and those were the two reasons that Judge Rabie and his commission accepted. It was for those reasons that the Commission recommended the retention of the provisions of section 6 in the relevant legislation. I just want to point out that I do not quarrel—nor does my party—with the need to protect the State against terrorism, because any society is entitled, in fact obliged, to protect itself against terrorism. The question is not whether the State is entitled to adopt powers to protect itself against terrorism. The question is what power the State is justified in taking and whether it can be limited to fighting terrorism. Our answer is that section 6 is totally unacceptable on those grounds because it grants excessive power which cannot be controlled and limited to terrorism and is in fact not limited to terrorism.

I want to demonstrate that. Yesterday a number of newspapers carried a report on the address given by the Chief of Security Police, Lt.-Gen. Coetzee, to the students of the RAU on Wednesday. It is reported that he told the students that the purpose of detention without trial was to obtain information that could be used, firstly, for operational reasons—that is quite acceptable—and, secondly, for diplomatic activities.

To what report are you referring now?

I am referring to one of a number of reports. There was a report in The Cape Times, there was one in the Rand Daily Mail, and there was one in The Citizen as well although I cannot recall whether the report in The Citizen contained that particular phrase.

What was that second point again?

The second point was that one of the purposes for obtaining information through the application of section 6 was for “diplomatic activities”. He went on to say: “And other activities”.It is clear that “diplomatic activities” is not one of the reasons the S.A. Police gave to the Rabie Commission. It is clear that that is outside the limits of apprehending a terrorist or preventing terrorism. It is quite clear, with respect, that that would not be a legitimate use of section 6.

The point I am really making is that, if one gives unlimited and uncontrolled power to any branch of the executive, they being only human, are going to use that power in their work. The problem we have is that power is being given to be exercised in secret without scrutiny by the House, without scrutiny by the public and without the control of the Supreme Court. The blame therefore does not rest entirely with the police. The problem is that one does not have the necessary control. The hon. the Minister himself last year, when taking part in the no-confidence debate—I refer hon. members to column 340—seemed to regard section 6 as some kind of tranquillizer power. He said it was there to cool people off. In saying that, he repeated what the hon. the Minister of Justice had said. He was quite indignant that we in the Opposition did not want to put these people, as he put it, in a place where they can cool off. He is quite right about that: We do not want that; we reject it unequivocally. We want nothing to do with that use of section 6.

The hon. the Minister of Justice, in replying to questions about section 6 earlier this session and referring to the Rabie report, took the attitude that there was no direct bearing between section 6 and whether people were detained and then charged in court. He said there was no direct bearing between criminal charges and the use of section 6. In this connection he referred to paragraph 10.64 of the Rabie Commission’s report. What the Rabie Commission said there was that police action will not necessarily lead to a court case. The commission went on to quote what Lord Shackleton had said when he investigated the Prevention of Terrorism Act of the United Kingdom. Lord Shackleton is quoted as saying that the absence of charges is not conclusive proof that a power has been wrongly used.

Are you referring to my colleague, the Minister of Justice?

Yes. It has to do with section 6 and the questions put in regard to it. There is a collective Cabinet responsibility on these matters. I am making the point that it is quite wrong to take the attitude that section 6 has no bearing on criminal charges. If one takes that kind of attitude, then right from the Cabinet the attitude flows that section 6 has nothing to do with criminal cases and, with respect, that is quite wrong. It is also not what the Rabie Commission’s report says. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pinetown began his speech with a childish complaint about the annual report which he received. I think he ought to be ashamed of himself. We have more important matters to discuss here than that with which he wasted the time of this House.

The hon. member also said that the hon. member for Berea tried to make a positive contribution, and I think he is correct. He did try to make a positive contribution about the image of the police because he is concerned about it. We are also concerned about it. However, I think that the hon. member for Berea should talk to a few of his colleagues about the image of the police. I shall come to that in a moment. Who are the people who destroy the image of the police in this country and in the outside world? We are not the ones. It is those hon. members. The hon. member for Pinetown showed us a list of detainees this afternoon and said that they were not terrorists in the bush. It is true. That is why I said this morning that the intellectual level of the criminal and the terrorist had definitely risen over the past few years. We have to take that into consideration. That is why these people are now operating in a different sphere. The hon. member also conceded that the Government had the right, by means of the police, to ensure that the living standard which exists in this country and all the values we have here, are not destroyed. They have to be protected. That is why we have to operate on the same level as those who want to destroy it. Let us now be frank with one another. The police are the friends of law-abiding people in this country. No-one, be they White, Brown or Black who acts within the laws of South Africa, has anything to fear from the S.A. Police. However, it is equally true—let us admit this to one another as well—that anyone who breaks the law, no matter what the colour of his skin is, must know that the police will take action against him.

The hon. member for Houghton said earlier today that it is the duty of an Opposition to ask questions and to investigate. We agree with her. It is amazing, but we agree with the hon. member. But is it also the duty of the Opposition, by way of innuendo, and in some cases of direct allegations, to besmirch the good name of the police? Is that the duty of our official Opposition? Is that how they see their task? If that is their duty as they see it, I think they are completely mistaken.

Today the hon. member for Houghton made a very vehement attack on fact that people are being detained without trial in South Africa. Let us now be frank and exchange views on this with each other without mincing words. It is correct that there are people in South Africa who are detained without trial for varying periods of time. If the hon. member tried to score a point with that against this side of the House, she succeeded. We grant her that. However, surely South Africa is not the only country in the world where people are detained without trial. In fact, there is not a single country in the world where it does not happen. Let me just quote one report with regard to Great Britain, the cradle of democracy. This report in The Times of 29 February 1980 reads—

They have done away with that.

When it was necessary to do so, these people were detained without trial and only one-fifth of the 4 500 were later charged in the courts. However, if one listens to the hon. member for Houghton, this only happens in South Africa. We can also take Zimbabwe, which lies just across our border, as an example. Those hon. members hold Zimbabwe up as an example of other things. The Prime Minister of Zimbabwe is at the moment detaining people in Zimbabwe in terms of laws promulgated by the previous Government. But if this should happen in South Africa, it is a cardinal sin. Why these misrepresentations? Surely it only harms South Africa. I also want to tell the hon. member that she is responsible for South Africa being harmed in this regard.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member for Green Point is simply wasting his breath and our time. I wish he would keep quiet or leave the House so that we can do our work here. It is not pleasant for the Government or the police to detain these people in any gaol in this country. We would rather see them leave. We do not like them to be there. What purpose does it serve to detain people without very good reasons who can only cause new trouble? However, as I have already said, this Government has a duty towards all the people in this country. We find no pleasure in taking a young man or a young girl away from their families or friends. If we had a choice, we would rather have them free to carry on with their lives and to earn themselves a livelihood. This is our view of this matter and I sincerely hope that the official Opposition and we will reach an understanding with one another on this point so that this side of the House will not always be accused of taking draconian action against certain people. We derive no pleasure from detaining people in prison cells. However, it is the duty and the responsibility of the Government and the police to ensure that we can live safely and peacefully in this country. Any Government has that duty. We have a duty to protect the community so that existing values are not destroyed. I want to challenge any hon. member of the PFP to name just one person who is being detained in South Africa because he tried to bring about peaceful changes in this country. Bring me just one man. There is no such person, because we do not detain people for doing that.

But there are no charges against the detainees.

However, we are compelled to detain people, who want to cause violence in South Africa, in prison cells.

The hon. member for Pinetown, as well as the hon. member for Houghton referred to what I think is a scandalous Press report issued by the so-called Detainees’ Parents Support Committee. It is a document which is blazoning abroad as authoritative reports the most unsavoury and most atrocious untruths about the police that I have ever seen. I quote from the document—

I think it is a scandalous thing to say and we reject it with contempt!

You do not know whether it is true or not.

The hon. member for Houghton also said that “There is widespread belief that these measures are in fact being used”. Where does she stand with regard to this allegation?

I want an investigation.

She must tell us now where she stands. Does she accept or reject these allegations?

Neither. I want an investigation.

Order!

But, Sir, he is asking me questions and I must answer them.

The hon. member need not keep on talking all the time; she need only say “yes” or “no”. Does she reject this scandalous allegation? The hon. member says that these allegations must be investigated.

Yes.

Let us then consider that investigation story! The PFP wants the image of the police to be improved, but the hon. member for Houghton says that this investigation should not be conducted by the police, but by an independent judge. A judge recently investigated the security legislation in South Africa, but the PFP does not accept his report. What do we achieve with an official Opposition such as this if this is what they are doing?

He did not investigate that.

The hon. member also attacked and cast suspicion on the methods of interrogation used by the police in South Africa. The hon. the Minister has already explained what is being done. He went even further and said the following in reply to a question—

Can we make it clearer than that for the hon. member? Does she not understand what we are telling her here?

I understand only too well.

Perhaps she does not want to understand. Why, in spite of the best possible guidelines which the hon. the Minister was able to prescribe, is the PFP not prepared to accept that the police are also acting in their interests, in the interests of the PFP, to keep our country safe for our people? Why does the PFP not accept the standpoint of the hon. the Minister and the reply he gave in this regard? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to follow up one or two of the points raised by the hon. member for Verwoerdburg. However, before doing so, I should like to say a few words about a matter which I am sure every hon. member in this House is concerned about and in regard to which I trust the hon. the Minister will make some observations when he replies to this debate. I am referring to the question of more policemen on the beat, the question of police foot patrols, the question of confidence on the part of the public and the maintenance of law and order. I know that when one discusses this matter one is immediately confronted with the manpower problem. However, I think the best source of opinion in regard to this matter from which one could quote is the report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Penal System of the Republic of South Africa, otherwise known as the Viljoen Commission. In paragraph 3.1.15 on page 35 of its report, the commission has this to say—

Therefore, police patrolling brings about a situation which makes it more difficult for those involved in it and they tend to approach the matter with certain reservations. However, the important point in this connection is contained in the following paragraph which states—

I think that this is a matter in regard to which a great many questions have been put to the hon. the Minister over the past two sessions and it is a problem that has not been met adequately because of the manpower situation. What we in these benches would like to see is a very deep and real concern on the part of the police to redevelop the link between the neighbourhood policeman and the people along his beat, to improve his knowledge of the suburb and its inhabitants, to maintain contact with them and to instil a feeling of confidence in those people that their area is well looked after. There is no question about it that the mobile police patrols have removed that personel contact and have made the police a little more remote from the public. In fact, in many cases there are crimes that are now so prevalent that the question of reporting them and bringing them to the notice of the police is considered to be more trouble than it is worth because of the procedure that has to be followed in order to do so. I think that that is a bad state of affairs. While I am sure that the hon. the Minister will agree with me that it is necessary to have as many policemen on the beat as possible, I believe that we must look further than that and possibly seek to be more inventive as we are in so many of our South African situations. We must try in this regard to bring about a system which will be more in keeping with what the public want.

I want now to come back to some of the points raised by the hon. member for Verwoerdburg because this is an area which I should like to cover as well. There is no doubt that in the minds of all right-thinking South Africans there must be a feeling of discomfort or unhappiness about the fact that our Police Force becomes labelled because of certain situations that arise in view of the security legislation that obtains in this country. It is pointless trying to whitewash all the people who have been detained or locked away and to imagine that there are no extremely dangerous people among them. However, I would say that the S.A. Police have a tremendous responsibility towards themselves and towards the country to maintain that communication link with the people to the extent where there will be a better understanding in regard to why certain people are detained. One hears so much about the detention of people, and the Press focuses so much attention on the detainees, but very little is ever heard about their crimes, their intended crimes or their involvement in crimes. I believe, therefore, that much more publicity should be given to that aspect in order to give the public a more balanced idea of what exactly we are fighting against. In this regard, I also believe that the hon. the Minister should surely take cognizance of the fact that when one is dealing with as sensitive an issue as this, it is only natural that the public should be in doubt about the situation the police find themselves in. We are all human, and under those circumstances the police will not always react in the best possible way, because very often they are provoked by those people in detention. Of that I am quite certain. In situations of provocation I believe that a far more sensitive approach is necessary regarding information about the welfare of detainees and the keeping of records about detainees, and this is something to which the police should pay close attention.

A number of questions have been raised in the House about persons detained under the Terrorism Act and other laws relating to internal security, people who have died and suffered while in detention, people who had charges laid against members of the Police Force—sometimes the detainees and members of their families—and people who had received hospital attention during their periods of detention. It appears, however, that no records are kept in regard to these matters. In view of this I am of the opinion that the police are doing themselves a disfavour, because the quick and simple reply that a careful record is kept of such sensitive matters would give the public the impression that no stone is left unturned to maintain a complete monitoring of all aspects of the detainee and his treatment in detention. Such an impression definitely does not exist at the present moment. The records that have been asked for in regard to detainees are, it seems, not kept or are not readily available, and this fact reflects badly on the Police Force.

What records do you actually want?

One question related specifically to the number of detainees who had received hospital attention, while another related to charges laid against members of the Police Force by detainees or members of their families, and the answer was that statistics are not kept. There are other similar replies—I will not bore the House with this now, but I have the details in my file—that simply gave one the feeling that the authorities do not approach the whole issue of detainees in a manner that would reassure the public that an absolutely detailed and finely-monitored record was kept to ensure that the handling of detainees by the Police Force was completely above suspicion. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, as well as the hon. members for Pinetown and Houghton, referred to detainees today. However, the hon. members for Pinetown and Houghton referred more specifically to the annual report of the Commissioner of Police in a disparaging way. If he has received a report in which the printing has not been properly done, then that is by way of exception, but I believe that to try and make the hon. the Minister look ridiculous across the floor of the House shows extremely poor taste. Surely we could have obtained another copy of the report at lunch-time and compared it with the reports of previous years. I think I can congratulate the hon. the Minister and the Commissioner on an exceptionally fine annual report, an annual report to be proud of, an annual report which in no way detracts from the standard maintained by the department concerned in the past.

The hon. member for Pinetown and the hon. member for Houghton referred to certain detainees. I wonder whether they are really interested in the S.A. Police. I wonder whether the two hon. members have ever heard of the S.A. Police periodical Servamus and whether the hon. members have ever read it.

Often.

I am pleased to hear the hon. member say that.

I hope that he has read the April edition of Servamus “often”, because on page 18, specific reference is made to “court reports”. The hon. member and the hon. member for Houghton referred to detainees in such a way as to cast the police in a very poor light as regards the way in which we treat the detainees. The hon. member for Pinetown is a lawyer, and I hope that when the security legislation is discussed we shall have the opportunity to debate with one another with reference to these specific matters.

I wish to quote from Servamus. I am sure that every policeman in South Africa receives this periodical, reads it with pride and knows exactly how strictly and carefully the Government acts when it comes to detainees. I refer specifically to the case of the State vs. Christie, 1982 (1), p. 464, Appellate Division Decisions. I also refer to the case like Kwella and others vs the State which came before the Appeal Court on 28 March 1980. However, the decision was not reported and the hon. member must bear that in mind. Reference is also made to Rex vs Anaeas, 1963 (3), SA, p. 486 (SR). If the hon. member would like to read it I should have the greatest pleasure in making this article available to him after the debate to enable him to read it. What appears in this journal which every policeman has read? The following is said about the Kwella case—

That is the section about which such a fuss was made—

In this article there is also a warning to the police. With reference to the three court decisions mentioned, certain conclusions are reached—

1. (1) Detention under section 6 of the Terrorism Act is very likely to create conditions which would make statements made by the detainee inadmissible in evidence.
2. (2) Limited detention under section 22 of the General Law Amendment Act does not create an obligation to speak, and statements made by detainees would generally be admissible in evidence unless other circumstances exist which could make it inadmissible.
3. (3) Confessions extracted after lengthy, continuous interrogation in seclusion are not necessarily excluded from evidence, but each individual case must depend on its own circumstance, the form of the question put, the manner of the interrogation, the persistent and aggressive quality of the questions and fatigue induced by persistent questioning are all factors which the courts would look at. All-night interrogation, though, would exclude a statement signed the next morning.

That is the conclusion. Why, then, do the two hon. members come and complain to the hon. the Minister and the S.A. Police Force? Here we have the clear warning. It is here being pointed out to us that the court is there to protect people, even though they be detainees or terrorists. I believe that those hon. members ought to do their homework properly before standing up in this House to level criticism at the annual report of the department.

However, I should like to refer to another matter. I believe that all of us in South Africa today can be proud of our Police Force, due to the fact that today, more than ever before, the Police Force performs a highly responsible, demanding and often thankless task. As is the case with all officials that render a service to the public, they are all too often simply taken for granted as people who have to be there, booted and spurred to be at everyone’s service. That is what many people think of our Police Force. They really have the wrong idea of the police. We ought to take far more careful note of the image of the Police Force and endeavour to promote it further. In this regard I am, in a sense, inclined to agree with the hon. member for King William’s Town. Of all State employees, the task of the policeman is certainly one of the most demanding. The maintenance of law and order in a multi-national country like South Africa is not child’s play. It takes guts and courage. Above all, it demands total dedication, year in and year out.

To illustrate this further I should like to refer to one other branch of the Police Force, viz. the detective branch and its activities. The detective branch of the S.A. Police is responsible for the investigation and prevention of crime. All the branches of the Police Force are involved in the latter function. Crimes that demand specialized investigation are dealt with by the commercial branch, the diamond and gold branch, the narcotics bureau, the murder and robbery branch, the stock theft unit, the vehicle branch and the firearms unit. Apart from these units, the detective service has at its disposal the services of the Forensic Science Laboratory, the S.A. Criminal Bureau and the Dog School. This only goes to show how comprehensive the activities of the police really are.

The prevention of crime is enjoying increasing priority in the majority of Police Forces of the Western World. During 1980 the S.A. Police Force launched intensive and countrywide crime prevention projects, which conveyed the following essential message: Mutual trust and co-operation between the public and the police, and the responsibility of the public to look after themselves and their property so that they do not easily fall prey to crime. The degree of success already achieved is reflected in the results achieved with the television programme Police File and in the fact that serious crime in South Africa increased by only 0,18% during 1981.

Nowadays we have to deal with sophisticated crime. Whereas initially the Republic of South Africa was only faced with a dagga problem—and I should now like to refer to dagga and other drugs—it is clear that over the past number of years the picture has changed and we now have a variety of drugs. The first arrest for the sale of Mandrax tablets in South Africa was carried out in 1978. Since 1978, however, the crime rate as regards drug dealing and the abuse of drugs has assumed disturbing proportions. The police make every effort to combat this evil, but the problem is aggravated by the fact that drugs are smuggled in via our neighbouring States. Moreover, at the moment there is little or no legislation concerning the control of Mandrax. Accordingly I want to make an urgent appeal to the hon. the Minister in this regard to give attention to the possibility of more stringent legislation to control Mandrax and the so-called “underground” drugs. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a privilege for me to participate in this debate in this new capacity for the first time this afternoon. I should also like to take this opportunity of thanking all hon. members of all the parties who have participated in this debate for the very pleasant spirit in which it was conducted and for their positive attitude towards the S.A. Police Force and towards the Security Legislation Directorate of the new ministry.

In addition, I should like to take this opportunity of conveying my appreciation to two very senior and valued officers of the S.A. Police who retired on pension at the end of last month. I am referring to Lieut.-Gen. Engels and Lieut.-Gen. Visser, who were Chief Deputy Commissioners of the administrative and detective branches respectively, of the S.A. Police. These are two officers who served with great distinction, and it is a great loss to us all that they have reached retirement age.

I should also like to apologize for the fact that our annual report was tabled at such a late date. There is no good reason for this, and I tender my apologies. The main reason for the delay does not lie with us. There were administrative and production reasons as well, but I do not want to blame any other departments. I just want to say that I am sorry hon. members have only received it today. I do not think all the reasons for this are good ones, but arrangements have already been made for our report to be tabled during February next year. However, I am not sorry that the hon. member for Pinetown received an annual report with only one page. He does not need any more information anyway. It is quite enough to occupy him for a year.

Does he read so slowly?

Yes, he reads rather slowly. [Interjections.] At this stage I should like to refer specifically to the argument advanced by the hon. member for Berea, and since the argument of the hon. member Mr. Theunissen corresponds with it for the most part, I should like to answer the questions of both those hon. members together. I listened attentively to the hon. member Mr. Theunissen’s speech today. When that hon. member left the NP earlier this year, I was so disappointed at the fact that that old friend of mine had left that I told myself: When I take a group of Parliamentarians to the operational area again at the end of this session to go and visit the S.A. Police, I shall certainly not take the hon. member Mr. Theunissen along; he can stay at home! That is how disappointed I was. I felt this way until the hon. member made his speech today, but now that he has spoken, I should like to tell him that I shall make the necessary arrangements. He is welcome to come along with us, because he made such a fine speech about the S.A. Police today. He said such kind things, also with regard to the portfolio with which I am entrusted. I should like to thank him for that. Of course, he knows what the feelings between us are. It is in this spirit that I should like to reply to his speech.

But you cannot take Potchefstroom. We are going to take it.

I am not talking to the hon. member for Langlaagte. I do not want to talk to the hon. member for Langlaagte now, for if I did, we would just get worked up again, and I do not want that to happen this afternoon. [Interjections.] However, he has not had his last political hiding in this House. He is going to get a few more before the session is over. He should rather leave us peace-loving people alone.

The hon. member for Berea—and the hon. member Mr. Theunissen, of course—asked me to give an indication of what the new composition of the Ministry of Law and Order was going to be. In the first place, there are two legs. There is the S.A. Police, which remains exactly as it has always been, with the Commissioner of Police at its head. The other leg is the Security Legislation Directorate, and as hon. members will see in the Internal Security Bill, which has already been introduced, it is composed of a group of knowledgable officials of the Department of Justice who have been transferred to this Ministry—while remaining Justice officials—and who will be under the control of a Director. The Director will have direct access to the Minister. In other words, there are independent action and direct liaison between the Director and the Minister, just as there are independent action and direct liaison between the Commissioner of Police and the Minister of Law and Order. I was also asked whether it had been decided who the functionary in this connection was going to be. The person whom I decided, after consultations with the hon. the Minister of Justice and the Director-General of Justice, to recommend to the Public Service Commission for appointment to this position—a person who is already assisting me as though his appointment were official, although it will only be really official after the legislation has been passed by Parliament—is Mr. André Bosch. At the moment he is Director in the Department of Justice. Advocate Bosch has been in the service of the Deapartment of Justice since 1957. Since 1965 he has been working in the head office of the department, where he has served in several capacities in the legal section of the department. He is very well qualified, with a Diploma Juris, a Diploma Legum, a B.Juris, and an LL.D. which he obtained at Unisa. In addition, he has a diploma in Advanced Public Administration from the University of Pretoria. Therefore he is eminently qualified for the special task which has been entrusted to him as the head of this section.

I have also been asked what our policy for the future is—when I say “us”, I mean the Ministry of Law and Order. My policy and the Government’s policy with regard to this portfolio, as far as the S.A. Police Force is concerned, is the same as in the past. The Force is doing excellent work. I have no reason whatsoever to change the policy with regard to the police. My approach as Minister in this connection is, firstly, that the police must do their duty irrespective of the person they are dealing with or the interests of such a person. This must be done in an impartial and purposeful way at all times. Secondly, we must perform our task without any unnecessary show of force. Thirdly, it is our duty to assist other bodies in maintaining law and order, but this does not mean that in doing so, we have to draw all the attention to ourselves. Every party must meet its own obligations and responsiblities. In the fourth place, it is our duty to protect and serve the public, and therefore it is essential that we be the friend of the public, and we should like this to be the case at all times. Finally, with this attitude we shall be prepared for our task at all times, but when we act, all law-breakers will be very sorry that they even thought of it.

As far as the new Ministry is concerned, it will be our endeavour, in the implementation of the security legislation as well—this is what I am referring to in particular—to maintain a balance between justice and effectiveness. However, the enemies of the country must not expect us to weaken in the face of any pressure, from whatever quarter. As far as security matters are concerned, we shall be relentless, while yet maintaining the necessary balance between justice and effectiveness. This is the basis on which I shall try, together with the responsible officials in the Ministry, to maintain law and order and to implement the security legislation and everything that is connected with it. I repeat: We shall do this in a just and effective way. I hope the hon. members will agree with this.

†The hon. member for Berea also addressed me on the question of the image of the Force and of the security police in particular. He expressed concern about our image. The hon. member also said that his impression is that, while the police do not have such a bad image amongst the Whites, it is not so good amongst the Blacks and other racial groups in South Africa. I cannot agree with the hon. member on that. The hon. member for Roodepoort today gave the results contained in a report published in Politikon of a research project by the RAU concerning the attitude of Black high school children towards the S.A. Police, and also, though not by way of comparison, the attitude of White high school children towards the S.A. Police. The majority of these children, in reply to a number of questions, expressed themselves in favour of the S.A. Police as regards their attitude towards them. What is so interesting, is that, by comparison, in the USA Black children of the same age and also at school expressed themselves against their police force although they agreed with the policies of their government. In South Africa those kids, although they do not agree with the policies of the Government, expressed themselves in favour of the police. That is very important and very interesting. I am sure that the hon. member for Houghton does not like this …

[Inaudible.]

… but these are results based on scientific research. She really should read them herself.

The hon. member for Krugersdorp also gave the hon. member for Berea a very good example of the image of a particular Black policeman in his own community who stood in the election for members of the community council and won hands down with a very strong percentage of the voters behind him. I want to assure the hon. member that the police are regularly briefed—they are not only trained, but they are also regularly briefed—on all sensitive matters. They are regularly briefed on all those matters that we have in mind. May I give another example of what has been done and is still being done as far as the image of the S.A. Police is concerned? I want to refer the hon. member to what is being done and to what has been done during the last year or two and even longer in Soweto.

*We have been working hard on our image in Soweto over the past few years. We had a Divisional Commissioner there who was very successful in improving our image. We also know that the present Divisional Commissioner will continue that work. I just want to refer to the one person because a special attempt was made there during his time to lay a good foundation. It is Brigadier Van Wyk who was in charge there for a year or two. He and other senior officers went out of their way to build up relationships with the entire community of Soweto, the entire Greater Soweto, the entire urban area, including the adjoining areas inhabited by Coloured people and the Indians in Lenasia, which do not form part of Soweto as such. Splendid results were achieved in building up relationships there. I wish some hon. members could go there with me to see the spirit that prevails when 300, 350 or 400 opinion-formers from Soweto meet as guests of the S.A. Police, and these are opinion-formers from the middle class, some of the strongest opinion-formers in Soweto, representing the whole spectrum of political persuasions, i.e. their political persuasions. We draw no distinction as far as this is concerned. We are building up a relationship between the S.A. Police and the community. What we are doing in a place like Soweto and in other similar places, is in fact to build up a healthy relationship between the police and the community. We are there to be the friends of the people and to serve their interests. We are not there to arrest people all day and to lock them up.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he thinks calling in the Defence Force when the police go on pass raids is helping to build up friendly relationships between the people of Soweto and the police?

This hon. member really should not be such an old sourpuss. Just as I am dealing with quite a pleasant subject she has to sound a discordant note again. I shall reply to that presently, but let me first deal with the positive things. I am first replying to the points raised by the hon. member for Berea. I want to assure the hon. member that wherever we have an opportunity, splendid relationships are being built up. People are received in the way one would normally receive opinion-formers, with the necessary refreshments and even with our police band providing background music. In this way we are building up friendly relationships. The visitors who are invited are opinion-formers from Johannesburg, for example, from many sectors of the economy, of industry, of the Press, of the media, and of many other spheres. I can assure the hon. member that we are working very hard on this project and that we are obtaining wonderful results. This is one of the major reasons why there is so much peace and quiet in our most important Black and other communities at the moment. It is because of the hard work which is being done by the police to build up relationships between them and the communities they have to serve. Therefore the hon. member may rest assured as far as this is concerned.

The hon. member for Houghton wants to know whether we are not harming our attempts by making use of Defence Force units when certain operations have to be carried out. What does the hon. member wish to achieve by her question? Is she implying that we have to be ashamed of the Defence Force? Is she implying that the Defence Force is not also the friend of those communities? Is the hon. member implying that these communities do not have the greatest respect for the Defence Force? If this is what the hon. member is implying, I say to her that she is wrong, quite wrong. The fact of the matter is that we sometimes undertake major operations and that a large number of men are required for these. The hon. member knows that I have given examples in this House before, in reply to questions asked by the hon. member, where I have explained that large mining areas in Johannesburg, around Crown Mines, for example, have been searched. I have said that large numbers of Defence Force men, together with large numbers of policemen, have participated in such operations, with very good results. I have said repeatedly in this House that in planning large and concentrated road blocks over a weekend, or over longer periods, we also make use of the Defence Force. It was recently stated in this House, in reply to a question, that thousands of members of the Defence Force participated in operations together with members of the S.A. Police during the past year. They were playing a supplementary role. Does the hon. member have any objection to that? Does she have any objection to the Defence Force making a contribution towards maintaining law and order in South Africa in co-operation with the S.A. Police? Does the hon. member have any objection to the Defence Force making a contribution, together with the S.A. Police, towards combating the activities of terrorists within South Africa? The hon. member must tell us. The hon. member cannot adopt that standpoint. If that is indeed her standpoint, it is perhaps a good thing that the public should know it.

You do not understand; you have no sensitivity.

The hon. member for Berea also asked me for particulars concerning a matter which had been discussed during the no-confidence debate earlier this year. He is worried about the increase in the amounts that have had to be paid by way of damages in civil claims against the S.A. Police, especially the increase between the years 1980 and 1981. The fact of the matter is that the number of 73 in 1980 and the number of 117 in 1981 do not represent the number of assaults which took place during the years concerned and which led to claims. These figures represent the number of claims finalized during those particular years. This is the position. So it certainly does not mean that 73 claims were brought in 1980 and 117 in 1981.

Another matter I wish to mention in passing is that an increasing number of people have had recourse to the courts in the last few years in actions for damages. Legal aid is readily available at legal clinics and legal resource centres where people can obtain advice more easily. It is also a fact that there has been an increase in the amounts awarded, as a result of the depreciation of money, etc. Therefore there has not been a significant increase. I shall give hon. members the figures over the past five years. These are figures for claims arising from murder, culpable homicide, serious assault and common assault. The figures indicate the number of claims brought against members of the Police Force on these charges. In 1977 there were 250; in 1978, 283; in 1979, 229; in 1980, 190; and in 1981, 174. Therefore I can assure the hon. member that there has not been any increase. There may have been an increase in the amount of money, but that is due to the reasons I have already mentioned. In fact, the figures over the past five years show a substantial decrease. I can also assure the hon. member that any form of violence against the public by members of the Police Force is strictly forbidden and that prompt action is taken against members of the Police Force who are guilty of this offence. I can reassure the hon. member on that score. Very strict orders have also been issued in this connection.

The hon. member also raised another matter, namely his concern about the increase in crime and what is being done in this connection. Before giving the hon. member our particulars, I should like to read a few reports to hon. members which are typical of the position in both Britain and the USA. In the first place I want to refer to a report which appeared in The Argus of 11 March this year, a report received from London. In it, the following is said—

This is basically what is at issue here, but I just want to mention the total figures. I do not want to distinguish between Black and White. The report goes on to say—

In the USA, according to a report in the New York Times of 31 January this year, the position is as follows—

The report goes on to say—

It goes on to say—

What is the position here in South Africa? I believe the hon. member for Houghton would expect the position here to be much worse. I want to give the hon. members the statistics. I just want to assure the House that although we have a serious crime situation and although there are areas in South Africa which certainly give us cause for concern, such as the Cape Peninsula, such as large parts of the Rand, especially the Johannesburg City centre, such as certain parts of Durban and Port Elizabeth in particular, it is still a fact that when we look at the overall crime rate in South Africa, we realize that it compares very well with the position which obtained in the past as well as the position in comparable countries in the Western world. These are countries which are actually much better off than this country as far as the general circumstances of their populations are concerned. The main reasons for this are the efforts being made by the South African Police and the new methods being used by the South African Police as well as the new procedures that are being followed. I dealt with this matter during the discussion of my Vote last year, so I do not want to discuss it in detail again. I just want to refer to the question of road blocks, for example. However unpopular these may sometimes be, they are extremely effective. We have apprehended 177 persons at road blocks recently for motor vehicle thefts. In addition, 158 stolen vehicles and 52 stolen fire-arms were recovered. This was not over a very long period. In addition, we arrested almost 2 000 people at road blocks alone for serious crimes and charged approximately 7 000 people for less serious crimes after they had come to our notice at road blocks. We have officers whose full-time job it is to liaise with all organizations in society with regard to the prevention of crime. Over the past year alone, literally hundreds of chambers of commerce, businesses, old-age homes, schools, farmers’ associations and many other interested organizations have been visited and addressed in groups. They have also been advised with regard to crime prevention. Over the past year we have bought 19 films which we are using very effectively all over South Africa to advise people with regard to crime prevention. There is a great demand for these films. We print and distribute book-marks for children, brochures, posters and pamphlets in which practical suggestions are offered to the public on how to protect their valuable property, themselves and their families. We distribute thousands of these pamphlets all over South Africa.

I should like to refer to the success of the television programme called Police File, one of the best things we could have thought of. I want to convey my thanks to the SABC once again, especially to the person who assists us so ably in handling the programme. Up to now, 487 cases of crime and missing persons have been dealt with on television. Of these, 269 cases have been successfully solved. In addition, 413 crimes which had already been closed as unsolved were reopened after arrested persons had been positively connected with the crimes. 682 cases have been solved and/or accused persons arrested almost exclusively as a result of information obtained from the public. This shows the splendid co-operation we get from the public.

A matter we feel deeply concerned about is the attacks on elderly people. We are very worried about this matter. We do as much as we can in this connection, even going to the homes of elderly people to advise them. In their areas, policemen take the trouble of visiting elderly people and advising them by telling them that it would be a good idea to add a security door to the front door which would lock automatically or could be locked when they went out. The policeman visiting such an elderly person also tells that person that it would be a good idea, when he has fetched his pension money from the Post Office, to deposit that money in a savings account and not to walk down the street with it. These are examples of suggestions which we make to the aged.

I should like to furnish some statistics concerning crime in South Africa. I am doing so in response to a request by the hon. member. I shall give the percentage difference between the serious crimes reported in 1980 and in 1981 in order to single out a few examples. In crime as a whole, there was an increase of 0,18% in South Africa between 1980 and 1981. Robbery with aggravating circumstances, among all races: A drop of 9,75%; murder, all races: An increase of 7,64%; rape: an increase of 0,60%; burglaries: an increase of 1,54%; stock theft: a decrease of less than 1%; and car theft: an increase of 6%. As I have said, there was an increase of 0,18% in serious crime all over the country. These one could compare with figures given by the hon. member for Verwoerdburg and by another hon. member in comparing our position with that of a comparable country. These were official statistics which the hon. members quoted. They come from official documents which I also have. Therefore I can very confidently state that the S.A. Police have clearly shown this House that we are able not only to combat crime, but also to prevent it in South Africa.

Therefore I should like to avail myself of this opportunity of thanking all the parties that are helping us so much to combat or prevent crime in South Africa, including the Press, radio, television and the public.

I trust that having made available this information, I have replied to the substance of the hon. member’s speech.

There is still the question of staff.

As far as staff is concerned, there is another hon. member who would also like to exchange some thoughts about this. I would appreciate it if the hon. member for Berea would allow me to reply in greater detail when that hon. member has also participated in the debate. I have particulars available and I shall make them known then.

The hon. member for Houghton is also here today. I was so pleased this afternoon when someone came to tell me that the hon. member was on her way to Moscow that I asked to see the newspaper report. To my regret I had to read in the report that she would be on her way back one of these days. [Interjections.]

†The hon. member for Houghton again expressed her concern this afternoon about the methods of interrogation applied by especially the Security Police. She also expressed her disappointment and dismay that the Rabie Commission did not investigate this particular issue. That was, however, not one of the instructions given to the Rabie Commission, and the hon. member knows that very well. However, I want to tell the hon. member that I have no intention of authorizing any investigation into this as she wants me to do.

Why not?

There are many reasons, and I shall mention them presently.

The hon. member also raised questions about the so-called important trial that she referred to, and she also talked about 300 people who were locked up. I do not know where the hon. member gets that figure from. I did not give it to her, and she knows that very well.

You did.

No, Sir, the figure of 300 has been mentioned purposely. The hon. member knows very well indeed that I have never at any stage given her a figure of 300 in respect of this particular matter that we are now debating. I shall give her the number of people who have been detained and also of those who have been charged in this regard.

*However, I want to begin with this committee, the Detainees’ Parents Support Committee, which has been mentioned this afternoon and to which the hon. member also referred. This particular committee paid a visit to me, the hon. the Minister of Justice, the Commissioner of Police and the Director-General of Justice, and submitted a memorandum to us. The delegation was led by Dr. M. Coleman and included the following people: Prof. Dr. H. J. Koornhof, Mr. Floyd of Cape Town, Mr. Masjinini of Soweto and Mrs. Gordon of Durban. A few weeks ago this committee requested an interview with me, and at one stage I decided to grant them this interview, for a variety of reasons, although I realized that it was only being requested as a part of the committee’s publicity campaign. I also realized that there was a risk involved in such an interview and that this event would again be exploited by the committee concerned. On the other hand, it is also the standpoint of the Government that an attempt should be made at all times to do justice to all. With regard to the internal situation and all those who are involved in it, there are also many reasons why one should act in this way.

I then asked the committee what they wanted to come and see us about. In reply to that I received a telegram in which five points were set out in connection with the single subject that was to be discussed during the interview, but no further particulars were given. When the committee arrived in my office, I asked them what we were actually supposed to discuss, and whether they could not have sent me a memorandum be forehand so that I and the other persons involved, including my colleague and other senior advisers, could have prepared ourselves to have a meaningful discussion with them. After all, that is why one asks a person to put something in writing for one, i.e. so that one may obtain the necessary information which will enable one to conduct a meaningful discussion. The chairman replied that they had not been able to send us a memorandum, but that they did have a memorandum available at that stage. I asked Dr. Coleman whether he had already given this memorandum to the Press, because I know that is the procedure which is followed. After all, it is all part of a publicity campaign. Dr. Coleman then told me that it had already been given to the Press, and when I asked him until when it had been embargoed, he replied that it was until the next morning, i.e. 12 o’clock that night.

Even before talking to us—and we wanted to talk to those people with the best of intentions—they had given that memorandum of theirs to the Press, with an embargo on top of that. When I told Dr. Coleman and the members of his committee that they could not expect me to have a meaningful discussion of the matter with them if they had already done this, and when I asked him whether he was prepared to extend the embargo—to withhold publication of this memorandum, therefore, so that we could first discuss the matter—he simply refused to do so. My request was merely that we should first discuss the matter and then decide to what extent the particulars should be made public. Surely this is the attitude that is required when people want to talk to one another seriously during such an interview. The members of the committee simply told me that they were sorry, but that they had been instructed by their people not to accede to any such requests from me. This can only mean that they must have anticipated the possibility that I might ask them to extend the embargo. As a number of interested persons they had decided even then that if such a request were put to them, they would refuse it and say that they had not been instructed to do this. You see, Mr. Chairman, this is the kind of experience one has. This is the kind of procedure that is followed. In exactly the same way the hon. member for Houghton made use of a so-called letter with regard to the Aggett case during the no-confidence debate, or in a debate shortly afterwards.

It was not a so-called letter. It was an authentic letter.

The hon. member for Houghton did this while knowing very well that in terms of the rules of this House she was taking an absolute chance. She did it in a calculated and deliberate way. [Interjections.] I now want to sound a warning here, Mr. Chairman, that if there is anyone who is going to have a red face with regard to the Aggett case, it is the hon. member for Houghton.

Go on with your speech; do not try to threaten me!

I want to issue a friendly warning to her about the same little letter she produced here the other day and about the same little friend of hers whose letter she produced in this House.

Just you wait and see!

I am warning the hon. member for Houghton, Mr. Chairman, that she and that little friend of hers are two people whose faces are going to be very red indeed. In any event, let us rather come back now to the matter concerning the Detainees’ Parents Support Committee. I told the chairman of the committee that I was prepared merely to accept the memorandum, but that I was not prepared to discuss it with them in detail, nor was the hon. the Minister of Justice. I put it to them that they could advance further arguments concerning the matter if they liked, but that we would then regard the matter as closed. The memorandum was then handed over to us and read. However, one could not help asking a casual question here and there. After all, one cannot just sit there listening and doing absolutely nothing. One’s interest is gradually aroused, even because of the falsehoods contained in such a memorandum. During the discussion, the hon. the Minister of Justice and I more than once specifically asked the members of that committee whether they were able to substantiate the allegations they were making in the memorandum on the basis of particulars derived from their own personal knowledge and based on facts concerning things which had happened during the past six months. They replied to this in the affirmative.

As hon. members will notice, this memorandum also contains a reference to the Tokyo Declaration, as applicable to medical practitioners in general. The part of it which is referred to in the memorandum reads as follows—

1. 1. The doctor shall not countenance, condone or participate in a practice of torture or other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading procedures, whatever the offence of which the victim of such procedures is suspected, accused or guilty, and whatever the victim’s beliefs or motives, and in all situations, including armed conflict and civil strifes.
2. 2. For the purpose of this declaration torture is defined as the deliberate systematic or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons, acting alone or on the orders of any authority, to force another person to yield information, to make a confession, or for any other reason.

The memorandum goes on to say—

I put it to Dr. Coleman that he was a medical practitioner, that Prof. Koornhof was a scientist …

Dr. Coleman is not a medical doctor and nor is Prof. Koornhof.

I think he is a biochemist. In any event, they are both scientists. I then asked them whether they had any information on the basis of which they believed that there were any doctors in South Africa who had failed to comply with this part of the Tokyo Declaration during the past six months in so far as their involvement with detainees was concerned. They both replied in the affirmative. Under those circumstances I want to put a serious question today to Dr. Coleman, Dr. Koornhof and Mr. Floyd, who is a very well-known professional man in Cape Town—I said so frankly to Mr. Floyd, because we knew each other from previous discussions—and that is whether they associate themselves with all those things. I want to say to all three those gentlemen in public here today that they must substantiate that statement which they made and which they themselves gave to the Press. After all, they say they have the proof provided by actions during the past six months.

[Inaudible.]

They must not be like the hon. member for Houghton, who goes back over a period of 20 years and then grasps at a few straws. They must substantiate the allegations made in the memorandum, since they say that the allegations are based on events which took place during the past six months. The Commissioner of Police has given them the opportunity. He has ordered an inquiry into these allegations and has given those people the opportunity of proving the truth of the allegations.

Why do you not do the same about torture?

So the friends of the hon. member for Houghton do have the opportunity …

Ah, do not be so silly·

… to substantiate these wild allegations, these drastic allegations, or, as an hon. member has put it, these scandalous allegations.

[Inaudible.]

They said they had the proof, based on events during the past six months. I therefore appeal to those three professional men today. They must be as honourable as they profess to be, and I want to accept that this is what they are. They must substantiate their allegations in public so that the public of South Africa may see where we stand with regard to the memorandum.

Then you do the same about the torture.

That hon. member is so worried about the question of assaults. Let me now give her the facts.

And are you not?

I have often given my views on this matter. There is no need for that hon. member to make such a remark. Let me give her the facts. Let us take the example of Alexander and Kosi Mbata of Soweto, who are members of a well-known church and who were detained. In the London Observer of 18 April 1982 I read the following report, sent in by a Mr. Sparks, the former editor of the Rand Daily Mail—

The term that is used is “brutally assaulted”—

The report goes on to say—

The hon. member for Houghton also spoke about hoods over the head earlier this afternoon.

Yes, that was the allegation.

Listening to her and to other hon. members of the Opposition, I also feel like pulling a hood over their heads some days! [Interjections.] I quote further—

What is the position, however? During his detention Mr. Mbata was regularly visited by magistrates, district surgeons, senior police officers and inspectors of detainees. According to the report of the magistrate alone, he was visited by the magistrate on 14 occasions. Only on one occasion did he have a charge of assault against the police. It was not of a serious nature. It was immediately investigated and the necessary attention was given to it. For the rest there were no complaints. His wife was also visited by the magistrate and by the other senior officials throughout the entire period. On the 11 or 12 occasions, if I remember correctly, on which she was visited according to the magistrate’s report she did not have a single complaint. Nor did she ever have a heart attack. She was treated for high blood pressure. This can be serious, but she did not have a heart attack. Nor were there any complaints of any other form of prejudicial treatment.

Here I have the case of Mr. Paul Cedric De Beer—I am simply quoting some random cases as examples. His detention began on 5 October last year. On 22 February this year he complained during a routine medical examination by the district surgeon that he had been assaulted early in October 1981. He laid that charge in February, four months after the event. He repeated this allegation to the inspector of detainees during his seventh visit to Mr. De Beer. However, between 5 October 1981 and 22 February this year he was visited 10 times by a magistrate, six times by an inspector of detainees and many times by senior police officers, and he never mentioned that he had been assaulted. In spite of this and in spite of the fact that he only laid his charge with us five months later, we immediately gave attention to it and opened a case.

I have here a long list of cases which time does not allow me to quote in full this afternoon. It is a long list of Supreme Court cases. I can mention some of the names. In the recent court case of The State v M. S. Luwato and S. K. Sihatolo—these are the two leaders of the group called the South African Youth Revolutionary Council which came here from Botswana and was caught here a few months ago—serious allegations were made against the Security Branch of the S.A. Police. These were rejected by the court. The same applies to the case of J. Ngumbe and to W. K. Mashlane and Sadikwe. In the Supreme Court case in Pretoria The State v Toshobe Shabangu Moise, the counsel for the defence led evidence in respect of every accused that they had been assaulted during their detention. The matter was fully investigated and evidence was given. Then there is the case against Isaac Besingo in Pietermaritzburg, the case against Harry Ngwala in Pietermaritzburg—that is where the hon. member for Pinetown comes from—the case against Mange and others and the case against John Sekite. I could go on mentioning names like these. I am just placing it on record. The hon. member for Houghton and some other people have got a few cases in which the courts ruled against the police and those cases are continually being quoted in every publication under the sun as well as in debates in this House.

[Inaudible.]

These are only a few cases. I shall give the number presently. I could go on like this.

[Inaudible.]

Order! I want to point out to the hon. member for Houghton that she is making too many interjections. The hon. the Minister may proceed.

Thank you. Sir.

You need protection.

Order!

Then there is the case against Cornelius Katha, the case against Njati in Krugersdorp and the so-called Abdussah trial in Pietermaritzburg. I could go on in this vein. I could quote dozens of cases.

What are the true facts? I shall base my remarks in part upon the hon. member’s speech in the no-confidence debate. In it she mentioned that in the years 1979 and 1980, the inspectors of detainees paid more than 1 000 visits to detainees in South Africa. How many complaints did they receive, however? On those more than 1 000 visits they only received seven complaints.

They are dead scared.

During the past nine months, the inspectors of detainees have paid 842 visits. This is up to 31 March 1982. During those 842 visits, they received 25 complaints. What is more, of the seven complaints received in the course of more than 1 000 visits during those two years, only three were referred to the Attorney-General, and in all three cases the Attorney-General refused to prosecute. So not a single one of those cases had any substance on which a prosecution could be based. That is the position. However, this message is not conveyed by hon. members. Since 1965—one of the hon. members referred to this briefly today—there have been approximately 120 cases …

Mr. Chairman, does the hon. the Minister realize that it is quite impossible for a detainee to have any witnesses?

There is no need for the hon. member to act as their advocate now. Hon. members of this House have listened to him often enough as an advocate for terrorists. Let me go on with my speech.

That is not an answer to the question.

But it is a fact. The hon. member need not be ashamed of it. After all, he is a professional man.

Answer him.

Since 1965, approximately 120 civil claims have been brought against the State. Of those 120, if I am correct, only 11 were eventually proceeded with. Of those 11 cases, if I remember correctly, a settlement was reached in about 6 cases. Only one case went ahead until a ruling was finally given in terms of which damages were paid. This is over the period since 1965 up to now. Those are the facts of the matter. However, hon. members do not consider how many hundreds of thousands of people have been detained by the Security Branch of the S.A. Police in terms of this legislation over the past 20 years. This, then, is the number of complaints that have resulted from such detentions. This testifies to the treatment received by those people. The hon. member for Houghton asked me a question about the people detained last year. Last year a total number of 40 people were detained. Up to now—and it has almost all been concluded now—15 of those people have been charged, 8 are being detained in terms of section 12(b), 15 have been released and will be called as witnesses, one is still being interrogated and one committed suicide, i.e. Dr. Aggett. This brings the total up to 40. During the interrogations in connection with this investigation, some serious crimes were exposed. Firstly, there was a plot to sabotage the Brixton Tower in Johannesburg with explosives; secondly, persons were being recruited on behalf of the ANC for military training abroad, and this was actually being done; thirdly the aims of the banned ANC were being promoted; and fourthly, there was a plot to endanger the maintenance of law and order in the Republic of South Africa by means of terrorism. These are crimes that have already been identified. One of these detainees, the one to which the hon. member for Houghton also referred, is the Koornhof lady, who also goes by the name of Fitzgerald. According to a report in the Tribune, to which the hon. member for Houghton referred, the Security Police threatened the father by saying that unless he brought pressure to bear on his daughter to give evidence, the daughter’s young son would be placed in an institution.

That is what he says.

How outrageous can people be? Let us see who is the writer of this article. It is David Niddre. We would not even consider giving him a Press card. His editor did not apply for a Press card for him either, because he knew it would not even be considered. He is the writer of this article. This lady went to Botswana on more than one occasion, without taking the little boy with her. On those occasions this was not such a problem. What does she actually say? She herself says—

Who is this Mr. Schoon with whom she is co-operating so closely? This Mr. Marius Schoon is a very well-known friend of some people in South Africa. He is a saboteur who has served a sentence of 12 years’ imprisonment in the Republic. At the moment he is an active agent in Botswana for the South African Communist Party. He gives political lectures at training camps in Angola to ANC recruits undergoing military training, and he also co-ordinates from Botswana all ANC operations, excluding military operations, in the Republic.

Then he is not a nice fellow at all!

These are his connections. We are lectured all day in this House about the detainees. However, this side of the matter is not emphasized by those hon. members as responsible members of this House. The hon. member for Houghton is not interested in this. She does not like this side of her friends who are being detained to be emphasized. Let us convey this message as well. After all, we cannot listen to the tirades of the hon. member for Houghton all day. In the no-confidence debate, for example, she took the gap by reading letters so that they could be quoted in the Press. We cannot sit here all day, listening to one accusation after another. The factual situation is that large numbers of people are involved in matters of this kind, and they are detained with absolutely minimal consequences. In spite of this, the few unfortunate incidents—these were unfortunate incidents where offences were actually committed—are always given wide publicity. The South African Security Police have to deal with extremely difficult situations and are faced with very well orchestrated and sophisticated attacks on the RSA from all quarters, even from the Kremlin. In recent years the South African Security Police have built up a record which I am not in the least ashamed of and which no one in this House has any reason to be ashamed of.

I shall reply to the rest of the debate later. [Interjections.]

Order! I want to request the hon. member for Houghton once again not to make so many interjections. She must please contain herself in this respect.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: The hon. the Minister in his speech referred to a Mr. Schoon and to his criminal record in respect of sabotage. The hon. the Minister also said that the hon. member for Houghton was a friend of Mr. Schoon and he implied that she associated herself with him. With great respect, I think the hon. the Minister should withdraw that insinuation.

Order! I do not interpret the hon. the Minister’s remark in the way the hon. member is suggesting.

Mr. Chairman, one can only regret that the hon. the Minister does not see his way clear to authorize an investigation into the treatment of detainees as requested by hon. members on this side of the House. Despite all the visits which he has enumerated, despite all the reports and despite the few complaints which were referred to, there is a disquiet amongst the public as a whole that the interrogation of detainees takes place in dark rooms where there is no control whatsoever. It does not serve the purpose of assuring the public by referring to the visits of people who are appointed from within the system. It does not serve the purpose of allaying the fears of all population groups to say that the inspector of detainees visits and that people within the department, e.g. police officers, are visiting these people. The purpose of an inquiry would be to open up the procedures in the sense of informing the public that there are some controls. Unfortunately, the hon. the Minister did not deal with the point of procedures that are followed when interrogations take place. Are there definite guidelines and rules that are set out? If so, by whom are they being monitored? What are they? These are the questions which the public is interested to have answered. The big problem in so far as the treatment of detainees is concerned is that no definite proof exists to prove or disprove the rumours that are going around and to which the hon. the Minister himself has referred. The hon. member for Pinetown wanted to ask the hon. the Minister whether he realized how difficult and almost impossible it was for detainees, if they do have complaints in regard to their treatment, to substantiate those allegations. One is, for example, aware of the difficulties of proving something of this nature in court if one has to rely completely upon one’s own evidence. Obviously, the possibility also exists that other witnesses who testify against a detainee, may concoct a story. Naturally, the same possibility exists on the part of the detainee. However, under present circumstances, it is virtually impossible for a detainee to successfully pursue a claim, civil or otherwise, in open court in respect of his treatment. It is for these reasons that we regret that an inquiry will not be held. I believe that the question marks in respect of this matter will remain until more acceptable assurances are given to the public in regard to the treatment of detainees.

The hon. the Minister also dealt with the question of the image of the Police Force. I accept the fact that a lot has been done and is being done to improve the image of the Police Force, and I believe that it has in fact improved to a marked degree. There is one small aspect I should like to mention which the hon. the Minister did not deal with and which is really in the form of a question. I should like to know whether any further steps have been taken in regard to the new uniform which policemen were to wear in urban areas. There have been some indications on the part of members of the public that it does not serve the image of the Police if they are seen in camouflage uniforms in urban areas where normal police duties are being performed. I believe that during February of this year the Commissioner of Police did indicate that they were considering introducing a new-look uniform, as it were, for these purposes. Perhaps the hon. the Minister will deal with that matter.

The hon. the Minister also indicated briefly that as far as he was concerned he saw absolutely nothing wrong with the use of the Defence Force in respect of, for example, a search of Diepkloof hostels. It would appear that the hon. the Minister does not appreciate what the use of the Defence Force for such purposes means to large sections of the public, particularly the people involved. In most Western countries the Defence Force is only called in for internal operations when natural disasters occur or when there is serious internal strife which comes close to civil war. Only under those circumstances would the Defence Force normally be called in. If we in South Africa have reached the stage where in respect of ordinary day to day police activities we have to start using the Defence Force, this can only create a feeling of insecurity, a feeling that the Police Force itself is not able to cope and that matters are getting out of hand. I appeal to the hon. the Minister to be more sensitive in respect of the use of the Defence Force for these purposes.

I should also like to deal with the question of the schoolboy reserve of the Police Force. This was referred to by the hon. member for Carletonville. At the moment that reserve consists of 275 members. We have already expressed our doubts as to whether such a reserve is necessary and we cannot approve of those schoolboys having powers of arrest equal to those of the regular members of the Police Force. This is information that we have obtained from the Press in a number of articles. It cannot possibly reassure the public if schoolboy jurisdiction is given the same weight as the jurisdiction of the ordinary members of the Force. There will be those who say that many members of the Police Force started their careers at the age of 16 but those members started under different circumstances where they had first to undergo an intensive training course before making the Police Force a long-term and permanent career and thus are qualified for their job. Schoolboys join on a short-term basis and they do not get proper training. My submission therefore is that they ought not to be given powers of arrest; they do not have the experience and they cannot judge circumstances in the same way as experienced policemen. It will not do the image of the Police Force any good if these young schoolboys are given those vast powers. They can serve a purpose when it comes to pulling out dagga plants. That is what they were used for initially in 1979. There their physical strength obviously comes in as valued assistance, but they should not be used for purposes of arrest. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether they, for example, carry arms.

What are you doing here at your age?

Some very sensible voters elected him.

The young police member who has the power of arrest would under ordinary circumstances, I would assume, also carry a fire-arm. I should like the hon. the Minister to tell me what the position is.

The hon. the Minister also referred in his speech to crime prevention and said that a lot was being done in that field. I agree with him that it would appear that over the last year, particularly in the Durban area, there has been a significant improvement in attempts to launch a crime prevention campaign. I refer for example to intensive campaigns during holidays in Durban to warn holidaymakers and the public in general against pickpockets, to warn the public to lock away their goods. The public are also made aware of how easy it is for pickpockets to operate when there are thousands of holidaymakers in the city. There was also the very successful campaign in Durban to decrease the muggings on the beach-fronts. One has to commend the Police Force for that. One has the impression that on an ad hoc basis the police look at crime prevention on that level in a far more regular and serious way than in the past. These campaigns have certainly been successful and one would hope that the hon. the Minister and the Police Force continue with this sort of campaign on that level.

The Police Force has to operate under difficult circumstances and we should only place our full trust in them if there is a completely open picture and the facts are available to the public as to what is happening in the Police Force. The pathetic accusations which one hears every time the Police Vote is under discussion about the denigration of the Police Force from this side of the House really become so worn out. In fact, they will start to backfire soon because there is now a new party in the House. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durban Central expressed his disappointment that the hon. the Minister was not prepared to appoint a commission of inquiry into detainees. I do not know exactly what the hon. member wanted to achieve by doing so. The hon. member spoke about guidelines which had to be laid down for the interrogation of these people, but I cannot see how this can be done. In the first place, we must ask ourselves why these people are detained. I do not believe that everyone would be interrogated in the same way. If it were to happen that the hon. member for Houghton and I were to be interrogated by the Security Police, I do not believe that the Security Police would make use of exactly the same methods in our case. I therefore do not believe that it is possible to lay down guidelines in this connection.

Every country in which law and order do no prevail, is doomed to chaos and downfall. Therefore it is essential that every country that wishes to make progress and provide for the peaceful and continued existence of its people, must do so on the basis of discipline, law and order. For this reason South Africa has built up a Police Force over the years which is unique of its kind in the world, particularly if we take into account the circumstances in which this Force has to perform its duties in South Africa.

It is true that the outside world, in particular the UN and its satellites, try to create an image of South Africa as a state in which oppression and violation of human rights takes place, a country in which the individual has no right of freedom or of movement. This image is emphasized to such an extent that radical organizations have come into being in South Africa with the aid of the UN and other organizations, organizations which seek to overthrow orderly government and plunge this country into chaos. Against this background the police are performing an extremely important and responsible task, which is essential for peaceful survival and the preservation of our norms in respect of order.

Do we always realize that the combating of terrorism, sabotage and riots forms part of the difficult task of the police? Often they have to act without hesitation, and then we find that it is the very people who usually disparage them who have to be protected in the process.

Many of our enemies usually attach a racial connotation to the actions of our police, but hon. members would do well to read the American and English newspapers, countries in which there is assumed to be no race discrimination, and they will see how often the police of those countries have to become involved in race confrontations.

In the light of circumstances in South Africa the police here have a difficult and uphill struggle to preserve a precious jewel, namely peace, in this country. Nor is this struggle becoming any easier. Radical elements are on the increase and above all, instruments are being created in this country which not only support these radicals but place them on a pedestal and give them the status of heroes.

Two of these instruments are two newspapers, namely the Sowetan and The Voice. I regret having to mention these newspapers by name, but I believe that in view of the freedom they enjoy, they could utilize the talent at their disposal in a different direction, viz. the upliftment of their own people. Both of these newspapers are openly opposed to detentions and restrictions. They faithfully record every restriction, detention, freeing or derestriction. Criticism of detentions and restrictions in the form of demonstrations and other steps by organizations such as the Detainees’ Parents Support Committee, statements by trade unions, the Black Sash and Wits, receive wide publicity.

In an effort to present detentions and restrictions as unfair and a form of oppression, the detainees and restricted persons are presented as good citizens and as heroes. In The Voice of 29 November 1981 a detainee is described as follows—

In The Voice of 17 January 1982 a restricted person is referred to as “the nightingale of the North”.

Various reports appear reflecting the problems of the family of detainees in such a way as to arouse sympathy with the reader. The aim of criticism of detentions and restrictions is clearly to persuade the authorities to relax legislation or its implementation. Moreover, it is clearly the aim to present security legislation as being as oppressive and unfair as possible in order to convince the Black people that their position in South Africa is indeed untenable.

In accordance with the principles of Black consciousness, The Voice rejects any Black leader who acts within the system established by the Whites. The reason for this is that such leaders stand in the way of liberation, since they create the impression that Blacks do have rights and are not merely oppressed.

Therefore such leaders, and the homeland policy, are seen as part of apartheid and as the direct cause of oppression and poor treatment of the Black people. The members of Community Councils and homeland leaders in particular run the gamut in this regard. The independence of Ciskei and the possible independence of other homelands is opposed and criticized. Calls on the part of Black groups not to take part in the independence celebrations usually enjoy wide publicity. Of all resistance movements that are active at the moment, the ANC received the most publicity. Every detainee, every hearing, enjoys the widest publicity. These people are presented as the liberators of an oppressed people, as the risen heroes and as people who perform the leading role in a drama that is unfolding in the Republic of South Africa. Then, too, wide publicity is given to the Azanian Peoples’ Organization. This organization enjoys publicity with reference, among other things, to a statement issued by Azapo in which all authorities in the Republic of South Africa are warned that no further exploitation of Blacks will be tolerated. In the Sowetan of 6 January 1982, a report appears under the title “Nothing to lose but our chains”. In this report the New Year’s message of the president of Azapo is presented, and the following is said—

The Sowetan of 7 January 1982 published a report entitled “Tutu, newsmaker or noisemaker?”. In passing, it reminded me of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North. In that report the following is said—

To these newspapers I want to say that they must beware that those whom they are making such efforts to incite do not turn against them one day. This is the atmosphere created by these newspapers and in which our Police Force have to carry out their duties. Fortunately, however, there are other newspapers in South Africa as well. I gain the impression that the co-operation among the majority of newspapers and the police is sound. The role that the media can play in the prevention of crime … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to become involved in any argument with the hon. member for Algoa, who dealt with the merits of the Sowetan and other newspapers. Whether we agree or not with what the hon. member had to say about the Sowetan, I believe that what is really important is that we should all take cognizance and very strong note of the feelings of Black people in this country, and deal with it accordingly.

Mr. Chairman, dealing with the Police Force here today, I want to state right at the outset that we see them as the first line of defence against insecurity in South Africa. We see it as their primary task in South Africa to take the responsibility for the maintenance of law and order, for the preservation of life and protection of property. Therefore the Police Force should be given every facility necessary to carry out their task. In order to do so, they should in the first instance be adequately remunerated in order to relieve them from financial worries. The pay they receive should put them into a position in which they will be able to combat the increasing cost of living, to support their families and to afford the education of their children. I believe that the Police Force can be distinguished from any other arm of the Service. If we could remove the Railway Police and the Post Office from the jurisdiction of the Commission for Administration, surely we could remove the Police Force from its jurisdiction as well and then pay policemen in accordance with the very special duties they have to perform and the very unique situations in which they find themselves. Secondly their conditions of service should be such that they can perform their arduous tasks. In the performance of those tasks, for example, conditions should be such that they are not expected to work such long and unusual hours, for example right through the night at times. Thirdly, they should have proper modern equipment for the detection of crime, for self-defence and for carrying out the necessary work. Lastly they should also have sufficient personnel to make it possible to perform the tasks they have to perform, because with a shortage of personnel a far too heavy burden falls on those who remain.

I think we are living in abnormal times, but it seems as if the abnormal has become the normal. It is not, for example, normal to have terrorism, nor is it normal to have to send one’s Police Force to the border, yet in these abnormal times we have come to accept this as normal.

Since I am now talking about the border aspect, I just want to put a few questions to the hon. the Minister in the light of the tremendously important task the police are performing on the border. Firstly, is there an age limit for border duty for policemen? Secondly, is preference given to unmarried policemen as opposed to married men with family commitments? Thirdly, when staff are recruited for border duty, are replacements found to carry out their tasks? Fourthly, would the hon. the Minister consider policemen volunteering for service on the border rather than having them simply drafted for duty? In other words, is there sufficient motivation for them to volunteer, or perhaps some incentives for single people to volunteer for the arduous tasks that have to be performed on the border?

Talking of the shortage of personnel, let me mention some calculations I have made based on figures on page 3 of the report. I find that there is a 25,75% shortage of White personnel and a 16,09% shortage of Black personnel. I think hon. members will agree that that is pretty hefty shortage, leaving a heavy onus on remaining staff members.

In Hillbrow I have a very close liaison with the Commissioner of Police. We meet once a month and monitor the crime that is taking place. In an area like Hillbrow the police simply cannot carry out their task properly. There is the shebeen-running, the liquor-selling, the muggings and the assaults. People are scared to open their doors and they are scared to walk in the streets at night. Why? Because we do not have enough policemen to do the job. When the Flying Squad is called at 03h00 because a pistol has been fired, it takes the policemen an hour to get to the scene. Why is that? When a shop-front is smashed in at night and one calls for the police, one finds that there is no one who can go out on the case over a weekend because they do not have enough people on duty. How is one to maintain proper law and order when one does not have the personnel to do so? Use is sometimes made of heavy sprinklers to keep people away from shebeens and gambling areas, but that is not the way to do things.

There is, of course, also the sociological aspect, and this aspect should also be examined by the Police Force. So much for the problem.

What about the remedy? Firstly I want to suggest improving the image of the policeman and showing him in a more friendly light so that he can get the co-operation of the public. There have been petitions for the return of the bobby on the beat, who can get to know an area and its people, and when such petitions are submitted to the hon. the Minister, signed by thousands of people, he should take notice of them. Having the old bobby back on his beat would create an opportunity for improving the policemen’s image. He must become a friend of the people. The bobby on the beat is the most important element in such a transformation.

Then there is the question of the police reserve. The hon. member for Berea put some question on the Question Paper in connection with the police reserve, but I cannot reconcile various figures that have been obtained. How many members have we actually got? According to the 1980 June report there were 16 221 members on the police reserve, but in December, only six months later, the figure given was 21 233. Where did the extra 5 000-odd come from? In June 1981 the figure given was 18 216, according to the present report, but in answer to a question six months later, the figure given was 22 300. As for the number of people who have left and who have resigned and are no longer active, according to the June report there were 12 254 such people. Yet in December the figure was only 2 388. Then, in the report for June 1981 the figure was 6 803 and in December 1981 it dropped to 1 666. With great respect, Sir, I just cannot reconcile these figures. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can throw some light on this.

Where the report deals with the question of police reserves one finds the interesting passage that “a considerable number of immigrants again offered their services”. I want to address the hon. the Minister on this for a moment. We know that the immigrant cannot be called up for defence purposes. According to the Defence Amendment Bill, the Second Reading of which has already been taken, we are going to spread the net wider as regards the number of people serving in the Defence Force. I believe that in view of the number of South Africans who have to serve, we should call upon the immigrants to volunteer to come forward and fill the ranks of the police reserves. In this way they can show their patriotism, their sense of duty and their gratitude towards South Africa for their work and their living conditions here. I believe this Parliament should make an appeal to the immigrants who are fit and able-bodied to come forward and serve in the police reserves.

I believe we should also consider, the conjunction with local authorities, the question of municipal police. Municipal police would be able to assist and help to supplement the duties of the policeman, maintaining a friendly relationship, which I think would be very important.

I come to the last aspect I want to deal with. In last year’s report figures were published in a break-down of infringements of the law. As regards the registration and production of documents we find that in successive years their were 117 000 cases reported, 129 000 and finally 134 000. In this connection I want to mention the AWB which has been referred to here. I want to commend the hon. the Minister on the strong statement he made rejecting any attempt to change the Government by violence. I do not see the leader of the CP here, but perhaps one of the other hon. members of the CP will answer on his behalf. The hon. member for Waterkloof said something in this regard, but the hon. member did not say whether they would admit as a member of the CP someone who subscribes to their principles but who also still subscribes to the principles of and belongs to the AWB. We are waiting for a statement from the CP on that. The AWB is a neo-Nazi party and it is an anti-Semitic party.

In respect of the contraventions of which I have spoken, I want to refer the hon. the Minister to a publication called Anti-Zion and another publication called The Six Million Reconsidered. These publications arrived in the post. I think they were sent to every member of Parliament. I checked with my colleagues and most of them got copies. They are sent from Pakistan. The parcel had on it a stamp of Pakistan. To give a short example, in Anti-Zion it says—

Is that the sort of anti-Semitism we want in this country? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the course of my speech I shall touch on certain aspects advanced by the hon. member for Hillbrow, inter alia, the salaries of the members of the Police Force. As far as the AWB is concerned, I can give him the assurance that we do not approve the methods they use either. I want to associate myself with the hon. member for Krugersdorp and the hon. member for Roodepoort as far as the motorcycle rallies are concerned. I want to give them the assurance that they have my full support in their plea that these motorcycle rallies be stopped, particularly since such a rally is being planned in my constituency between 20 and 23 May this year. The hon. member knows how densely populated that part of my constituency is.

In the course of the debate today the hon. member for Sunnyside once again, as on previous occasions, said to me across the floor of this House that I should go to Die Vaderland. I just want to say to the hon. member that I am not the newsmaker. He is the newsmaker, and if he wants something placed in Die Vaderland, he had better approach that newspaper himself to have the necessary report published therein. I do not mind.

Earlier this afternoon the hon. the Minister referred to the effectiveness of our Police Force. The greatest task of the Police Force is undoubtedly to be effective, so as to be able to render the necessary service to the general public. It goes without saying that one can only praise the effectiveness of the S.A. Police. Of course, in the circumstances there must be good liaison, not only between the police and the general public but also between the police and other departments. Here I refer in particular to our traffic departments. The switching of our traffic departments to a centralized computer system for the registration of motor vehicles is one good thing which has taken place. In this way they can trace all details of a person very easily, and within a few minutes if necessary, for the purposes of any case which is being investigated. To illustrate how effectively this works I want to say that on Tuesday morning, 4 May, I picked up the telephone, dialled the traffic department concerned and furnished the details and told them that I wanted information about vehicle FYT800T. Within a few minutes I was given the information that it was a cream-coloured Mercedes 300D, registered in the name of Mr. J. H. van der Merwe of Grey Street 17, Alberante, Alberton. The identity number of the person and all details were given to me, because they had that information as well. By means of this method the police are therefore able to carry out followup work because within a question of minutes they can obtain the details of a vehicle if they only have the registration number of the vehicle. I want to say to the hon. member for Jeppe that we have a few things to talk about. That hon. member will not deny that he is still driving around with an NP sticker on the back of his car. The sticker contains the following message, written in large letters: “Nou meer as ooit, stem Nasionaal”. I have no fault to find with the contents of the sticker. I do not wish to dispute that with the hon. member for Jeppe. However, I wish to appeal to him to remove the sticker from his car because I shudder to think that members of the public may be under the impression that the hon. member for Jeppe is still a Nationalist! The hon. member for Jeppe must please just be fair to the NP.

I shall remove it this very afternoon.

He should rather keep for the CP the embarrassment he has caused us in the past. I can also give the hon. member the assurance that we do not want him in the NP again. Accordingly we want him to dissociate himself from the NP entirely. I take it that the hon. member for Jeppe admits that the sticker is still on his car.

Yes, and it is stuck on very tightly.

It is because he does not have a good Nationalist to help him to do the work properly.

I was speaking about the effectiveness of our Police force. Now the question arises: What can we do and what have we done to promote this effectiveness? We have drastically increased the salaries of our police over the last few years. Let us look at a few examples of how their salaries have improved.

For example, from 1 April 1980 a constable with Std. 10 on the minimum notch received a salary of R4 230, including a danger allowance of R840. On 1 April 1982 this amount increased to R6 303, including a danger allowance of R1 443. This represents a 49% increase over two years. The danger allowance alone has increased by 75%.

On 1 April 1980 a constable with Std. 10 on the maximum notch earned a total annual salary of R6 585. At present the same constable in the same circumstances receives an annual salary of R8 913. On the other hand, the salary of a sergeant has increased by 72,69% from 1 April 1979 to 1 April 1982.

The salary increase for a warrant officer in the various categories was 93%, 57%, 86% and 84,7% respectively. For the two categories of lieutenant, there was an increase of 86,5% and 68%. I shall not go into detail as far as the higher ranks are concerned, but I just wish to mention the following salary increases: For a captain, 88,5%; for a major, 83,7%; for a lieutenant-colonel, 81,3% and for a colonel, 69% and 47,5% respectively.

Let us also consider the other benefits enjoyed by the police. They receive a uniform allowance which has been increased from R262 per annum to R300 per annum. I am told that their uniforms are of such a high quality that it is barely necessary to use this uniform allowance every year. In such a case they may use the money to buy private clothes, and this does happen. An improved housing subsidy also applies with effect from 1 October 1981. Before 1 October 1981 a housing subsidy was paid on a loan amount of R20 000. That amount has now been increased to R40 000. On a loan of R17 000 the subsidy has been increased by R20,20; on a loan of R25 000 it has been increased by R24,08 and on a loan of R27 000 the amount is R112,05. The new dispensation has meant that the administrative work has been reduced by 70% because after a subsidy has been dealt with, the amount remains constant until an increased loan is negotiated.

Then, too, cash bonuses are paid to all race groups when specific qualifications are obtained. When the national certificate in police administration is obtained, a policeman receives R500; when the national senior certificate in police administration is obtained, he gets R750, and for obtaining the national diploma in police administration, the amount is R1 000. These cash bonuses only apply in respect of examinations written after 1 June 1981.

Apart from this a police officer also receives remuneration for additional work. For an eight-hour shift, for example, a constable receives R22,09 and for a four-hour shift, R11,05. A sergeant, on the other hand, gets R34,29 and R17,14 respectively. In this way the remuneration for additional work is increased, depending on the rank. We see therefore that in view of these salary increases and in view of the improved conditions of service in general there is always an incentive for every policeman to become better qualified. It means the prospect of promotion to higher ranks, and it also has the major advantage that he will benefit financially to a considerable extent. We also see that the salaries of policemen have improved to such an extent as to be competitive with any other group in the same class. I now wish to appeal to our young men who take an interest in this to join the Police Force, and to do so without hesitation, because at present the salaries and benefits are very favourable.

Accordingly I should also like to hear from the hon. the Minister how many policemen have joined the Force, particularly in view of the drastic salary increases.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the thanks conveyed by the hon. member for Losberg to our policemen and to his reference to the good salary scales and allowances that apply at present. He also referred to the favourable effect of these salaries and allowances, and I believe that all of us in this House associate ourselves with that. We all agree that policemen should earn good salaries so that the Police Force may be placed in a position to obtain the necessary manpower and even attract former policemen back to the Force.

Today I wish to refer to another facet of the policeman’s task. One is inclined to think of the S.A. Police Force solely in terms of what it does in the first line of the South African defence, viz. the maintenance of security, law and order within the borders of the Republic. Today I wish to pay tribute to those people who have to perform operational and border duty in difficult circumstances. This is an aspect which is not always singled out for attention, and accordingly I take pleasure in doing so today. I also wish to convey my thinks to the families of these men who also have to make sacrifices in order to enable the policemen to perform such service. These people work under difficult circumstances throughout the length of our country’s borders, a region extending over a distance of more than 3 000 km. They are also deployed on the northern border of South West Africa. To be able to perform this task, they are established in more than 40 bases along the entire length of this border. Allow me to say here and now that we are all aware of the difficult border terrain between the Republic of South Africa and our neighbouring States. It varies from desert conditions to extremely mountainous parts, and just as the topography and geography differ, the temperature and climatic conditions, too, differ widely on these borders. These people’s bases are sometimes from 20 to 30 to 200 km apart, and the majority of patrols on the country’s borders have to be carried out on foot since, as has already been pointed out, the terrain is so impassable as to be inaccessible to vehicles. On the other hand, it is also because the road does not always follow the national border. Accordingly this work is performed in extremely difficult circumstances. They are unforgiving, waterless areas with extremes of temperature varying from tropical to far below freezing point. These people perform that task with absolute scrupulousness. Not only do they fight terrorists in the interior, as we heard again recently in Northern Transvaal, where five ANC terrorists were arrested and a considerable amount of arms and explosives captured which would otherwise have been used in terrorist onslaughts on South Africa and its people; they have to face other difficulties as well. We do not always show these people the necessary thanks and appreciation, and when I say this I am not trying to make out that one Force is better than another. The S.A. Defence Force and the S.A. Police are a team. Each has its own function, but often they also have to take joint action, and in such cases the command is transferred from one arm to the other. They work as a team in order to achieve success.

I have already referred to the terrain and the circumstances. When patrol work has to be carried out in the warm parts of Owambo, particularly in the dry season when water is unobtainable, these men often have to be content with the absolute minimum of water. This is also the case with regard to follow-up actions to locate and destroy the enemy. Nor is bath water readily available to these men when they return to their tents in the cold evenings. We appreciate the facilities established for these men at their bases, but we also want to plead that everything humanly possible be made available for these men on our borders to make circumstances there as comfortable as possible for them.

The S.A. Police also play a vital role in the promotion of better human relations with our neighbouring States and with the Black population of Owambo. Members of all the population groups in South Africa serve on our borders, and a climate of confidence in the S.A. Police Force is being created due to the fact that, as also requested by the farmers on the border areas, these bases are all accessible by telephone in case of emergency. Through their actions and the security they have provided they have won the people’s hearts. They have also created a position of confidence by means of which they obtain the necessary information to enable them to crown with success the operations carried out by the S.A. Police Force. The successes achieved there by the S.A. Police Force attest to the co-operation they receive from the local population, from whom they are able to obtain information and so on.

We pay tribute to those men in uniform who are serving on our borders. We pay tribute to the members of the S.A. Police Force who have sacrificed their lives in recent years in the execution of their task, and we also wish to convey our sympathy to their next-of-kin. We pray that the men of the S.A. Police Force be granted the strength to be able to carry out the important task they have to perform.

Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes remaining to us on this side in this debate, I should like to take the opportunity to single out a specific sector of the S.A. Police Force for a moment. I am referring to the Gold and Diamond Branch. I am doing so because this branch celebrates its centenary this year. This is a remarkable achievement. Men like Brig. Erasmus and those who work with him, occasionally carry out their task under extremely difficult conditions—sometimes in the coldest parts of our country and on other occasions in the desert regions. Sometimes they must work with people in the highest positions in our community and on other occasions they must work with people who come from the lowest spheres of our community. The men of this branch are involved with every part of our community in their attempts to control gold and diamond smuggling in our country. They are also extremely successful in this.

I pay tribute to the men of the Gold and Diamond Branch, whose head office was established in Kimberley a hundred years ago. I sincerely hope that the men who work in this branch will continue during the next 100 years to be guardians of our precious stones and metals—our diamonds and gold. That is actually all I wanted to say in this connection, but perhaps I should point out that I know these men extremely well. When I am in my constituency if possible I go every Friday to the officers’ club or to the non-commissioned officers’ club to enjoy a sundowner with them.

If one is seeking men in the S.A. Police Force on whom one can depend at all times and under all circumstances and whom one would never guess spend their time tracking down gold or diamond smugglers, one will find them there. I pay tribute to these men.

Mr. Chairman, I should now like to reply to the rest of the debate and furnish the information hon. members asked me for. Before I do so, however, there is one little point in the speech made by the hon. member for Houghton which still has to be disposed of. It concerns the 300 detainees during 1981 in terms of section 6 of the Terrorism Act. She put a question about this matter earlier this year and this is the reply which was furnished, but the intention was not that the number of 320 to which she referred related to the court case to which I had been referring in the course of the past year. Consequently we are talking about two different matters.

As far as section 32 of the Police Act is concerned, and the question of the prescription of actions after a period of six months, I wish to point out that we are dealing here with a provision which is also included in various other laws, such as those relating to defence and prisons. I do not intend having the specific section amended of my own accord; it really has caused no problems in the past. I am also aware of the recent court case in which the person concerned was accommodated by the court in regard to the period of prescription, but my information is that the Standing Committee which gives attention to these complicated legal aspects, is in general looking into this particular section, as well as other sections. I would prefer them to carry on peacefully with their task and advise us on the matter in due course. At this stage I have no intention of amending it.

I should like to thank the hon. member for Verwoerdburg for the exceptionally staunch contribution which he made, as has become customary of him. In particular, I thank him for his kind reference to the S.A. Police Training College in Pretoria. In this connection I should like to state that during the past two decades, owing to the exacting demands which are constantly being made on police officers, members of the Force have already been offered supplementary and more advanced course after their basic training in order to equip them even better for the important task which they have to fulfil. These supplementary courses have to be offered in the police college as a result of a lack of suitable alternative accommodation. This entails that police officers taking the course sometimes have to share facilities with students and staff. This state of affairs is not only undesirable, but is also in certain respects prejudicial to the maintenance of discipline. Consequently I have granted approval in principle to the construction of a South African Police College for Advanced Training on a suitable site in the vicinity of Pretoria, a site which still has to be acquired for this purpose. As soon as this has been done, provision will be made on the list of major works for the Police for the construction of such a college.

Another matter which I wish to mention is not a new announcement, but something I should like to support. Arising out of various ideas which were expressed by many well-meaning people, it was decided to make a large-scale attempt to build an old-age home or homes for elderly ex-members of the Police Force in South Africa, at places still to be decided upon. This splendid idea owes its origin to a group of policewomen, arising out of the shortage of accommodation which these elderly people are experiencing.

Pietermaritzburg is the ideal place for that. [Interjections.]

Yes, it may perhaps be a good place for that. Under the guidance of Mrs. Geldenhuys, the wife of the Commissioner of Police, a country-wide fund-raising effort has been launched, and their aim is to raise the necessary funds within the next few years. This is a very commendable effort, one which I should like to bring to the attention of hon. members of this House.

I should like to thank the hon. member Mr. Theunissen for the trouble he took to bring the serious problem of drugs in all its aspects to the attention of this House, and to point out to us once again the singular magnitude of the problem. The increase in the peddling of drugs is something which is at present proving to be a major headache for the S.A. Police, and if one takes note of the matters to which the hon. member referred us to, inter alia, how dagga and other drugs are being offered to young people in an attractive form. It is really unnerving to think that such things are already happening in our country. Consequently I wish to make an appeal to everyone—to parents, members of the public and all the individuals and organizations involved—to combat this very serious problem in South Africa. I give them the assurance that the S.A. Police shall also try to do so.

I also thank the hon. member for the words of gratitude and appreciation which he conveyed to members of the Sanca branch in the S.A. Police. They are men who do not frequently appear in the limelight, because they operate in a world of darkness. However, I can give hon. members the assurance that they are doing excellent work, under the senior officer who is responsible for them.

Now that peace prevails once again between the hon. member Mr. Theunissen and myself, I want to avail myself of this opportunity of thanking him for the assistance which he gave us when he was still sitting on this side of the House. He helped us with the acquisition of a water supply for the police in the vicinity of Kopfontein, and that part of the border. In this respect we had experienced difficulties for many years, and when the hon. member was still sitting on this side of the House—I do not know whether he would still be so helpful now—he was of great assistance to us in obtaining that water supply, and I am very grateful to him for doing so. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Krugersdorp raised a very serious matter today, the motor-cycle “cowboys”. Recently they also made an attempt to hold such a rally in our district, and the hon. member for Losberg, in whose constituency that part of our district falls, took a strong stand on the matter with the magistrate as well as the S.A. Police, but the magistrate had, in any event, decided of his own accord not to grant the permit. I, together with the hon. member for Losberg, took note of the disgusting and unsavoury practices which accompany these motor-cycle rallies.

If one examines the photographs in the possession of the hon. member for Losberg and others, one cannot believe one’s own eyes. It is unbelievable that such disgusting behaviour can take place at these motor-cycle rallies. I should like to give the hon. member the assurance that we on our part will apply every possible rule and regulation to discourage, combat and oppose incidents of this nature. There are quite enough decent recreational facilities which people may use. Consequently it is not necessary at all that they should make use of rallies of this nature to allow all these disgusting abuses to take place. The hon. member may count on our support, and I can also give him the assurance that the Government will adopt a very strong standpoint in regard to this matter, via all the respective departments which may possibly be involved, until such time as those people organize a rally which one need not be ashamed of. As soon as they do that, they may ask for co-operation again. However, as long as the rallies are something one has to be ashamed of, no department will accord them any co-operation.

†In his speech the hon. member for Umhlanga referred to the urgent problem, as he put it, of recruiting trainees, etc., and particularly of retaining first-class members of the Police Force. He also referred again to the question of whether a policeman’s take-home pay was adequate or not. I want to tell the hon. member that whenever he wishes to ask for any information about police salaries and service conditions from my office or the department, it will be made available to him. There is no secrecy about that. The hon. member also wanted to know whether a form of bonus in respect of border duty was applicable to members of the Police Force too. According to information given to me by the Commissioner of Police, it appears that members of the S.A. Police Force are a little better off in this respect than members of the S.A. Railway Police. Both Forces are being well looked after, however I can assure the hon. member of that. I also want to assure the hon. member that the situation at present, although not ideal, is quite a happy one as far as recruitment is concerned, and also in respect of retaining members in the Force.

The hon. member for Losberg or some other hon. member has quoted numerous statistics in respect of the question asked by the hon. member for Umhlanga. I have those statistics here, and I shall let the hon. member have them in order to enable him to obtain a complete picture of our present salary and service structure. In order to satisfy the hon. member, I shall give him all the statistics and all the information that I have so that he can in turn convey these to his constituents. I thank the hon. member for Umhlanga for the particular interest he always displayes in the affairs of the S.A. Police Force. I also thank him for his support and for the support of his party.

*I know that we always have the wholehearted support of the NRP.

The hon. member for Roodepoort also referred to various matters. Inter alia, he also mentioned the motor cycle rallies. However, he referred to one matter in particular which I should like to reply to in detail. This was the question of police trials. The hon. member asked whether we could not reconsider making use of tape recorders during police trials. We discussed the matter here last year. Owing to the cost factor, and other reasons, we were unfortunately unable to accede to the hon. member’s request. However, I want to give the hon. member the assurance that there is a great deal of merit in his plea. There is a great deal of merit in his argument, and the Commissioner and I will review the matter in order to establish whether it will not ultimately be possible for us to do so after all, even if we have to do so on the basis that these amenities are made available in a certain division. They need not necessarily be available at one centre only, but could be at the disposal of a division.

This brings me to the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, but I want to speak to him in Afrikaans. These English place names in Natal confuse one. I was looking for the hon. member on the opposite side, but all the time he was sitting here. As an ex-member of the Force, the hon. member for Umhlatuzana once again made his esteemed contribution. He furnished very interesting figures on the recruitment of members. These are figures at which the hon. member opposite me could take a look. I agree with the hon. member that it is time more attention was given—I am not saying that we do not give serious attention to this matter—to false accusations which are made against the S.A. Police. In this connection I just wish to point out to the Committee that there is section 27B in the Police Act which provides that a person may only publish the truth about the police and that one must at least make a bona fide attempt to make certain that one’s facts are correct before one publishes them. In this connection I think there is very good reason for our S.A. Police to apply that particular section in our Act more frequently than we have done in the past.

The hon. member for Carletonville, in a very well prepared speech on police reservists, furnished an excellent survey of the involvement of the reservists, and I can give him the assurance that all the members of the reserve force will be grateful to hear with what great appreciation the hon. member referred to them today.

†The hon. member for Pinetown referred to several matters, but I briefly want to reply to only one of them. I am referring to the reference to the speech of Gen. Coetzee. The hon. member was good enough to send me a clipping from the Rand Daily Mail of 6 May of this year in which the speech is referred to very briefly. In this particular report Gen. Coetzee is quoted as having said—

That does not, however, mean that we are involved, in conjunction with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Information, in any diplomatic matters as such. That is not our business. That is not our job. However, during our interrogation of people, or during the course of our investigations, we may obtain information which may be of importance to relations between ourselves and another country. It is then of importance for us, in the diplomatic sense, to be in possession of such information and to convey the said information either to our Department of Foreign Affairs and Information and/or through them to the country that may be involved or the people that may be involved in a particular security situation. That is the only sense in which Gen. Coetzee referred to diplomatic and other activities. We are not, however, involved in the ordinary diplomatic activities that are carried out by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Information.

The hon. member also referred, by way of a legal argument, to some aspects of section 6. I would, however, prefer to debate this particular issue during the discussion of the relevant Bill, either in the Second Reading debate or during the Committee Stage.

*In a second speech the hon. member for Verwoerdburg also referred to the Detainees’ Parents Support Committee, and to certain matters in that connection. I think he indicated very effectively to the hon. member for Houghton and also to certain other hon. members how the position in our country compares with the position in some other countries, and I just wish to thank the hon. member once again for doing so.

†The hon. member for King William’s Town raised a very important matter. He argued we should have better Press liaison between the S.A. Police and/or the Minister of Law and Order and the public in order to inform the public fully of both sides of any issue involving security matters. I could not agree more with the hon. member. I have considered this matter very seriously in the last few months and I have come to the conclusion that this is a professional job and should be done by professionals. For that reason I have appointed as a member of my staff in the Ministry of Law and Order a senior officer from our public relations department, Lt.-Col. Mellet, who is a professionally trained journalist. I think he served for about 13 years on the staff of the Natal Mercury, eventually in a very senior position. For the last few years he has gained very valuable experience as a member of the S.A. Police and he has distinguished himself in this field. He is now on my personal staff and he has particular instructions to do exactly what the hon. member suggested I should do. I am quite confident that within the near future the hon. member will see the results of this effort on the part of my office to inform the public more fully on all the particular issues as far as security matters are concerned, i.e. those being handled by myself. I thank the hon. member for his very positive suggestion.

*The hon. member for Overvaal also referred to the oppressive problem of drugs and the extent of the problem. I want to ask the hon. members just to look once again at what is stated in this connection in the annual report and to make inquiries, for their own information, at our department to obtain more particulars in that regard. The hon. member asked us to look at the legislation which is applicable to this. I do not think that the legislation falls under me.

However, I can assure the hon. member that I, as a member of the Government team, together with my colleagues, will look into the matter and that we shall, on our part, make the necessary contributions to effect improvements to the legislation if that is necessary, and if my hon. colleague who is responsible for the legislation decides accordingly.

†The hon. member for Durban Central asked me quite a number of questions and referred to quite a number of different subjects. It is quite impossible for me to reply fully to all of them. He asked, inter alia, what the position is in regard to our new uniform. I take it he was referring to the uniform used by riot squads and those sections of the police. The position is that months ago already we decided on a new uniform, a blue uniform. We have already had a few made and some of the senior officers have displayed them in public. I think the new uniform is definitely going to be a very great success and I am looking forward to the day when we will be able to supply all the members of the Force with this particular uniform. The result will then be that all members of the Force will at all times do duty in some form of blue uniform, except the members doing duty in the operational area or patrol duties on our borders. Those members will continue to use the present uniform, but everywhere else in South Africa all members of the Force will in future do duty in some form or other of blue uniform.

What about the police engaged in countering stock theft?

The people who are engaged in combating stock theft and who have to do their work under very unfavourable circumstances in remote areas will probably continue to wear the existing field uniform. However, the idea is that in all urban areas the S.A. Police will do their work, for example at road blocks in connection with riot control, etc., in a new working uniform of a blue colour. In the rural areas and in remote areas, however, the police will probably continue to do their work in the same working uniform.

The hon. member for Durban Central also referred to the schoolboys who are serving in the Police Force. It then occurred to me to ask the hon. member, in view of his age, what he was doing here. While I was still thinking about that, the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs asked him whether he thought he was entitled to the same salary which the older members on his side received.

Yes, I am.

That is only as far as his age is concerned, for he does look rather like a schoolboy-type PFP man.

He has not made the grade yet. [Interjections.]

The fact of the matter is that a young man may join the police at the age of 16. Subsequently he undergoes his training in the college for a period of one year. At the age of 17 he is then a fully-trained constable and a full-fledged member of the S.A. Police. In addition we are receiving wonderful support from the police reservists. The figure is already far in excess of 200, and I have every reason to believe that during the next few months we shall have a few hundred more high school boys who will be able to do their service on this basis in the S.A. Police. They are already doing excellent work. The average age of the boys is 16 to 18 years. These are Std. 9 and matric boys, and even young men in a higher age group, who are serving as police reservists under the strict control and with the good co-operation of experienced members. Consequently the hon. member need not be concerned at all over the question of whether these young men are at that age able to carry out the responsibilities entrusted to them.

The hon. member for Algoa also referred to a variety of matters, and I should just like to refer to one of them, and that is the role of the Press, either in connection with conveying the ANC message or in connection with other security matters. This is an extremely serious matter, and I am not being reproachful towards the Press. It is not for the purpose of being reproachful towards the Press when we point a finger at irresponsible things that occur in their ranks because things happen, willy-nilly, in the Press which are to the benefit of our enemies. I just want to give a single example of this. Every six months the ANC publishes their periodical In Combat. The latest edition runs into 90 pages and is entirely based on extracts from South African newspapers or publications. And of course they only publish their success stories. They do not publish their failures. Based, however, on what they think is a success story, their latest publication consisted of 90 pages of articles from South African publications. I now want to furnish three examples of how happy they ought to be. In Durban a building of the Department of Co-operation and Development was blown up. The front section of the building was blown into the street. On the first day the damage was estimated at R7 million in our newspapers. On the second day this amount had risen to R8 million. On the third day it was R9 million. Five days later it was R10 million. I then thought, but this is a bit too much, and asked the Commissioner to look into the matter. What did we find? All the buildings in that street were not even worth R10 million. How is it possible that the damage figure could be so high? When we caused the damage to be assessed by a valuer, we found that the damage was less than R300 000. However, the message had been conveyed, and those reports of the high cost of the damage will appear in In Combat.

In Cafda Park in Pretoria an electricity substation was blown up and banner headlines in newspapers stated “Stad in donkerte gehul”. Then nine suburbs were identified that had been plunged into darkness as a result of the explosion, from Waverley to Erasmia. Every suburb was mentioned by name, and this entire section of Pretoria was allegedly plunged into darkness as a result of that one substation that was blown up. What more could a terrorist ask for than such reportings as this? Surely it is like manna from heaven to him. The Star and Pretoria News published a full-page report of the results of a market survey which they had conducted on the increasing popularity of the ANC in South Africa. A major newspaper such as the Star and another important newspaper, the Pretoria News, published a full-page report on the increasing popularity of the ANC. Now a jubilant ANC is rejoicing all the way from here to London, by way of Lusaka. Whether or not this is done knowingly and willingly, we are in any case able to enumerate a series of examples of how they benefit our enemies by means of this kind of report. Therefore one can only ask that our Press, our media, should please be extremely careful in the presentation of events, so that the wrong people are not unnecessarily benefited by it.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer.

†The hon. member for Hillbrow really shot at me with a shotgun this afternoon. It is impossible to answer the hon. member on everyone of the nine different points he mentioned, although I do appreciate the seriousness with which he put these points. May I, however, just refer to one or two of them? If the hon. member wants any more information about any of the others he must let me know and I shall let him have the information in writing.

The hon. member referred to the figures regarding the police reservists which I had given him and he said that he could not reconcile them. To tell the hon. member the truth, I cannot either. Will the hon. member please call at my office whenever it suits him, so that we can sit down with some of my staff to try to figure out these statistics? The hon. member also referred to immigrants doing service as police reservists. We all have the greatest appreciation for these people who come forward to do this service. May I just confirm that many of them are doing wonderful service, especially in Johannesburg. I want to congratulate and thank these people for what they are doing there.

The hon. member also referred to the creation of municipal Police Forces and said that this should be encouraged. The Cape Town City Council is working in this direction, and with encouraging results. I certainly hope that other city councils will follow suit. I certainly hope so.

I also thank the hon. member for his interest in the affairs of the S.A. Police. He has always been one of our supporters. May I just say that the hon. member’s percentages of 25% in respect of Whites and 18% in respect of Blacks may be the position on paper. In practice it is something else. But if the hon. member can call on me for a cup of tea we can go into this matter as well. I do not think the position is quite as bad.

I got my figures from the annual report.

I accept that, but the position is not quite as bad as that. It is more in the region of 17%.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister one question. I have referred to the publications The Six Million Reconsidered and Anti-Zion. If the hon. the Minister agrees that these publications are offensive and shocking, will he take some action about their distribution and dissemination in South Africa?

I will go into that matter. I cannot comment on it now, but I have made a note of it and I will go into the matter.

*The hon. member for Losberg furnished several interesting particulars in regard to salary increases, etc., for the S.A. Police, and also referred to the results that had been achieved with recruitment after the new salary scales had been announced. I do not have enough time at my disposal to go into details, but I do nevertheless want to refer to a few figures. The hon. member has already mentioned quite a few of the figures. This year there was an excellent increase in employment, after 1 July last year when the new salary scales came into operation. At present there is a total of 4 578 members of the Force who are either undergoing training, or have already been assigned to police stations and are awaiting training. All that I want to say is that we already have a few hundred more than during the corresponding period last year. As far as I am concerned, the results are extremely promising and we are very grateful for that.

I also thank the hon. member for Beaufort West for the fine contribution which he made in regard to our men on the border and in the operational area. It is a fact that the S.A. Police, working as a member of a team with the S.A. Defence Force, has for many years been doing more than its share in the contribution it makes. I am very grateful to be able to testify to the wonderful co-operation and team spirit which prevails in this team, both in the operational area as well as other places where the S.A. Police and the S.A. Defence Force participate in combined operations. We act in support of the Defence Force and on a few occasions internally the Defence Force in turn acts in support of the Police. The co-operation is very pleasant and one can only take cognizance of this with gratitude.

The hon. member for Kimberley South referred to the exceptional year which the Diamond Branch had this year. I should also like to pay tribute to this branch of the S.A. Police which has for many years been rendering excellent service, sometimes to the disadvantage of some people, but also in general to the advantage of large numbers of people who are involved in the various branches of the diamond industry in South Africa. It is not only the interests of the rich people that are being looked after. It is to a far greater extent the interests of the poor man, the mineworker, that are being looked after by this branch of the police, and for which one is very grateful.

I want to thank all hon. members for their contributions. I should like to express my appreciation for the co-operation on both sides of the House as far as the S.A. Police is concerned, as well as for the good wishes in regard to the new Ministry of Law and Order that has been established.

Before I resume my seat there is one matter to which I just wish to refer briefly. This is a matter which affects the S.A. Police very closely. Earlier this year the Steyn report on the media was tabled in this House. In that report criticism was levelled at the Minister of Police in two different places, and on one occasion it was in fact levelled at me personally. I want to deal with this very briefly.

In the first place, the Minister of Police was reproached in the Steyn report with reference to “the growing confrontation between the Minister of Police and the Press in South Africa”. Then I was used as an example. Unfortunately the Steyn Commission made a mistake by referring to the amendment of the Police Act in 1979. That was when section 27(b) was inserted, the section which provided that one should tell the truth when criticizing the police. I should like to place it on record that in 1979 I was Minister of Public Works and Tourism. At that stage I had nothing to do with the police or the amendment to that Act. The commission could in due course take cognizance of this. [Interjections.] Yes, they will simply have to add an addendum. [Interjections.] I hope they will do so. In the second place, the commission saw fit to level criticism at Government departments, as well as Ministers, because we were allegedly making it difficult for the Press to acquire certain information and/or publish it. In this connection reference was also made to the involvement of the S.A. Police and the Minister concerned, and particularly in regard to the salaries and conditions of service on which there was a slight disagreement between us at one stage. But what are the facts? In brief, what it amounts to is that over a period of years the S.A. Police was singled out by some of our newspapers and their salaries and conditions of service were used for sensational reporting, whether well-intentioned or not. This had a destructive effect on the morale of members of the Force. We then reached a stage in which we said that we could no longer carry on in that way. We then made every possible attempt to have the correct information published. Of course the responsible newspapers published it, but the irresponsible newspapers still continued to publish gossip and/or distorted reports. Eventually I went so far as to tell the editors of newspapers that there had to be co-operation. In the agreement between the NPU and the Commissioner of Police there is a clause which provides that if a newspaper places a report which allegedly originates from a member of the Force, then the name and address of that member of the Force shall be disclosed to the Commissioner of Police if he should ask for it. Then I said: But surely there are two sides to this matter. You are reproaching me for not wanting to give your information, and I say that I do not want to give you any information as long as you do not want to divulge the name of the person who is supplying you with the information.

Not a single reporter or newspaper involved in this discussion—it ranged over a fairly wide area—was prepared to comply with that part of the agreement. Not one of them was prepared to do so. But we had to comply. We had to honour our part of the agreement. Some reporters—not all, because there were some of them who published good reports—were so disinterested that they did not even read the full particulars on the salaries and conditions of service of the S.A. Police that were published in Servamus. Two months after they had been published, senior people came to see me in my office, and even then they had still not read them. This was the amount of interest they displayed in that information. The outcome of the matter was that I prepared a submission in regard to the matter which the department forwarded to the Steyn Commission. We said to them: While you are still sitting, do you not wish to consider this situation? We also told them that we were at our wits’ end; we had an agreement with these people and they did not even wish to comply with it. The commission had to help us to prevent confidential documents which are sent out by the Commissioner and end up on the desks of senior officers from being published, and also this kind of reporting which was simply destructive of morale. Neither I nor a single member of the S.A. Police were called in to discuss this kind of problem. The next thing that happened was that I was castigated in the Steyn Commission report. Is that not ingratitude for you? I do not wish to go into this matter any further. The commission did valuable work for us, but since we are dealing with the discussion of the S.A. Police Vote, I say that surely we cannot go through life in such a tattered state. That is why I felt that this side of the matter should be brought to the attention of this Committee.

I thank all the hon. members once again for their particular interest in thee fine departments with which I am associated.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

reported that the Standing Committee on Vote No. 16.—“Education and Training”, had agreed to the Vote.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.