Mr Speaker, I want to point out to hon members in good time that Thursday, 31 May—Ascension Day—is not a sitting day, and that Friday, 1 June, has been proclaimed as a public holiday for the purpose of the commemoration of the twenty-third anniversary of the Republic. In order to provide that the House of Assembly does not sit on Friday, 1 June, I now move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Speaker, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

I think it is essential that we look at the history of, the background to, our policies and their development in the past in order to understand the idiom in which the NP is proceeding to accomplish its initiatives.

I cannot put it more concisely than Dr Verwoerd put it, and I quote briefly from what Dr Verwoerd had to say in March 1961:

I would translate this as “vriendelike nasionalisme”:

When one analyses this extremely meaningful and concise statement, one notices that three important aspects come to the fore. The first very important aspect is the spirit in which these two principles must be laid down and implemented. The spirit in which this must take place is also very important. The spirit of good neighbourliness, of “vriendelike nasionalisme”, is of fundamental importance to the policy of the NP. When one looks at the preamble to our constitution, one finds the same approach. It states that it is one of our national goals to maintain Christian values and civilized standards.

A second important aspect comes to the fore, however. We are also dealing with political independence. Politically, the states in South Africa are going to grow independently of one another. Furthermore, we are also intertwined economically. It is very important to note that these two principles exist side by side and do not exclude each other. Therefore, it does not mean that when there is economic intertwining and economic interdependence there must necessarily also be political integration. The two concepts are completely divorced from one another. This is something we would do well to realize in the times in which we are living. It is precisely in this respect that the CP and the PFP are missing the point completely. They do not realize that these two principles are separate legs which complement each other and that this policy as a whole is based on that. The initiatives and the development of the Government’s policy must be seen in the light of these three aspects.

I cannot think of a better way of indicating what we plan to do with the Black communities outside the national states, than to sum up what the hon the Prime Minister said in August 1981. He made three cardinal points, and I should like to elaborate on them briefly. Firstly, as regards the development of fully-fledged Black local authorities, the hon the Prime Minister said that this would enable these bodies to look after their own interests and to consult on matters of common interest at local government level. Secondly, he said that the exercising of political rights would take place beyond the local and regional co-ordinating level by way of independent and national states. In the third instance, he said that in-depth consideration was being given to, and negotiations taking place on, ways in which constitutional links between the states concerned and their citizens could be improved in such a way that the Blacks outside these states could exercise effective political participation. [Interjections.] I shall come to that in a minute.

Since we are considering these three goals in respect of the Blacks outside the Black states, I want to dwell very briefly on the initiatives taken in respect of Black local authorities. We are all aware of this. Firstly, legislation in respect of Black local authorities was placed on the Statute Books within a year after the hon the Prime Minister had spoken about this and already there are 29 Black local authorities functioning after having been subjected to, and succeeded in, stringent tests.

When we consider this, certain aspects come to the fore. These initiatives being taken by the NP have a scientific base, are well thought out, and have not merely been sucked out of someone’s thumb. Secondly, these initiatives are being put into operation. In the third instance, it seems that these initiatives are being accepted by the Black communities for whom they were meant. This is a telling example of guidance-orientated development, and telling proof that this Government is completely in control of the direction and pattern of development of Black communities in South Africa. These initiatives are embodied in legislation. There is a saying which goes: “There is no problem, however difficult, which if looked at in the proper way does not become more involved.” This is what is happening with Black affairs. They become more involved. The situation now is that a special Cabinet Committee has been established to give attention to the overlapping interests of neighbouring local authorities. The end of the road is not yet in sight, but the initiatives and development continue.

When one looks at the legislation on Black communities which was dispensed with yesterday, one notes that not only has the initiative been taken in respect of Black local authorities, but also as regards any local community, even if there is no local authority. When there is no local authority some of the development boards in the rural areas can operate in conjunction with the Transvaal Board for the Development of Peri-Urban Areas. The total initiative in respect of Black communities in South Africa is therefore in the process of unfolding.

The timeliness of these initiatives is very clear. This could no longer be delayed. A responsible Government has no choice but to see to it that stable communities are established in a realistic way. In South Africa we have the phenomenon of intensive urbanization, particularly as regards the Blacks. The urbanization process in South Africa—it is there for all to see—is increasing in intensity. Thirty-eight per cent of the total Black population is already urbanized. Fifty-two per cent of the 38% are living in White South Africa. If one compares this with the urbanization of the Whites, Coloureds and Indians, one notes that the potential for urbanization is very clear and tremendously important, and for the orderly continued existence of society it is therefore necessary to create a balance between the socially and economically manageable population figures and population growth, as well as sources of livelihood. We must strive for a balanced geographic distribution of these communities.

With these two laws having been passed, and a third which still has to be passed, one finds that the infrastructure for this control, for creating this balance, is already being established by the Government. We are therefore able to consider these initiatives with confidence. They are based on the history and statements of policy of many years ago and they are still being implemented by this party. No one can dispute that. I challenge anyone to tell us where we have gone wrong. What would they have done? They should not only complain and criticize, but should come forward with positive statements and say what they would have done instead.

When one looks at the consolidation of land, the importance of these initiatives must be underlined in this context as well, since it is these initiatives that are establishing a comity of nations in Southern Africa. These are extremely important initiatives that have been taken and are proving to be a success. If one takes a brief look at this, one sees that as far back as 1979 the Government recommended that attention be given to the speeding up of consolidation, since speed goes hand in hand with the economic viability of those Black states. It is important for the Black states to be economically viable, and these initiatives must therefore be speeded up. Economic viability can be measured against three things, inter alia. Firstly, there is the generating of employment opportunities; secondly, the financing of one’s own current costs and, thirdly, the provision of the necessary space for the continued existence of all peoples. This is how the instrument or initiative of the consolidation of land is being used by the Government to extend the viability of the Black states in our midst. We are in the process of expanding within an estimated time schedule to bring this initiative to a successful conclusion.

Since we are speaking about initiatives, there are, of course, important matters that still have to be given attention. In this regard I cannot do better than to refer to what the hon the Prime Minister said in this House last year, and I refer hon members to column 123 of last year’s Hansard. I do not wish to repeat it, since I do not have the time. However, the fact of the matter is that there are further initiatives that still have to be taken. A special Cabinet Committee has been established for this very purpose. This Committee must elaborate on the matter and seek solutions to these problems. They are working on this. As far as the terms of reference of that Cabinet Committee is concerned, we read in Hansard that they are to consult the Governments of independent states, self-governing states, as well as community leaders, and negotiate with them. The Cabinet Committee is in the process of carrying out that instruction. One must realize that there are a number of parties involved. The Cabinet Committee does not work on its own. It has to consult with others who have other functions to perform and who have to be available for negotiations. However, the committee is continuing to carry out its task swiftly and efficiently under the circumstances. The leaders of a certain national state were consulted in January, and the leaders of independent states were consulted this month. The momentum is therefore being maintained.

I do not wish to dwell on all these matters, although I think it is essential that I come back to the third point…

And the second point.

It is linked to that point. I therefore want to come back to the third point as regards the political origin and future of, as well as the link between, the people involved. The hon the Prime Minister put it as follows: Urgent attention must be given to, and negotiations must be undertaken concerning ways in which constitutional links between the relevant states and their citizens can be improved in such a way that Blacks outside these states can exercise effective political participation. It is a directive. This is the direction we should follow. It is also important to determine what the future holds in this regard.

We could become enthusiastic about this directive. As far as this initiative is concerned, we know that there is a solution. We know that the special Cabinet Committee is qualified to find a solution as far as this directive is concerned. There are three points I wish to touch on in this regard. Firstly, a political realism is taking root in South Africa. Of course, we have a few political fossils; nevertheless there is a realism taking root in South Africa. We need only look at the results of the referendum. There is a realism, and that realism is taking root among the Black leaders as well. They realize that we are placed side by side, not to agitate against one another, but to co-operate for the good of all. With the force with which that realism drives one to seek solutions, I believe that we could become enthusiastic that solutions, will, in fact, be found.

There is a second point. The leaders with whom talks are being held are enthusiastic. They are not only realistic, but also enthusiastic because they regard members of the Black communities as part of their people even though they live in the urban areas. They are also enthusiastic about this.

The third reason for one being able to believe that solutions will be found is that there are so many diverse models that can work to create these constitutional links. There is a large number of models. They need not be the same for every independent and national state. They can vary. We therefore have models we can look at.

Since we are speaking about constitutional links, I myself should like to gain clarity on what is meant by this. To me, this link means the creation of a tie, a relationship, between the independent and national states and the Black communities in the Republic of South Africa. That relationship can then serve as a point of departure for a process of development which will lead to better and stronger political, financial, cultural and social ties between those states and the Black communities. As I have said, there are many models with which to achieve this goal. When we look at these models, we see that there is one thing which stands out very clearly, viz that the correct climate must be created in which these links, these relationships, can succeed. A climate must be created so that the national states and the independent states, the different communities, need not be afraid that they will be trespassing on each other’s territory. Mutual trust must be created so that they can co-operate. There must be a climate of trust so that they can assist one another on the political level, as well as on other levels. It is very clear that they can assist one another by performing certain functions for one another to the benefit of everyone involved. It is possible that there could be certain financial advantages for the parties in a climate of co-operation. Assessed in its totality, this process of creating a climate could lead to the improvement of the quality of life of Black people everywhere.

I wish to conclude. I have not yet even touched on the initiatives. There are many matters I have not discussed. As is very clear from this booklet I have in my hand—Multilateral Co-operation in Southern Africa 1983—there are other matters I have not touched on either, such as the Development Bank, regional development initiatives and the 500 000 houses that have been made available and which can be purchased by Black people—but other hon members will speak about that. There is therefore a fantastic phalanx of initiatives. Never before in the history of South Africa have there been so many initiatives pressing to the fore simultaneously. This is the strong point of the NP. I want to go so far as to say that the continued existence of our Christian values and our civilized standards and the attainment of our national goals can be attributed to the initiative of this party, at the levels I have just mentioned. We take what is good and fair from the past and build the future on that. We are enthusiastic about these initiatives. We support our hon Prime Minister. We are convinced that we are on the right path. We have always been on the right path. We are satisfied that we are at the helm. We know where we are going and we ask South Africa to follow us.

Mr Speaker, this sort of motion that has been moved by the hon member for Pretoria West appears to be becoming an hardy annual. Last year the hon member for Innesdal moved a very similar motion except that he limited his to a discussion on the situation of urban Blacks. The hon member who spoke today has had some flights of fancy and imagination which I think he could only have learnt from the hon the Minister of Co-operation and Development.

Words, words, words.

Yes, exactly. All the examples that he gave us of the success of Government policy could have been taken right out of the Press interview given by the hon the Minister a couple of days ago when he cited the tremendous success of the elections held under the Local Government Act.

Who talked about “tremendous success”?

Also, he cited the fact that we had already passed, or were about to pass, the Black Communities Development Act, and he of course also mentioned the “great” Committee on which so many hopes are now resting. The hon member went further and told us that already the Cabinet Committee had met with the leaders of the independent states and with the leaders of the non-independent states, as if that has solved all the problems in South Africa. He went on about regional development. These are all flights of fancy out of which nothing concrete has emerged.

I propose now to bring the hon member and perhaps the hon the Minister down to reality to look at the situation as it is and not as they wishfully hope it has already evolved. I therefore wish to move the following amendment on the hon member’s motion:

1. (1) the continuing crisis in Black urban housing as a result of the absence of a proper urbanization plan; and
2. (2) the deepening crisis in Black rural poverty in the homelands and in ‘White’ rural areas.”.

Before I discuss the urban Blacks, I want to say that hon members should not bluff themselves that there is satisfaction with the political accommodation that has been accorded by the local government set-up and by the vote in the national homelands. Hon members must know that there was a low poll in most of the elections held for local government authorities and that Blacks across the political spectrum, from the radical youth on the one side to the conservative homeland leaders on the other, all expressed their total dissatisfaction with this sort of political accommodation.

I now want to say a few words about Blacks in rural areas outside the homelands; in other words, Blacks in platteland dorps, because these people are totally neglected. We never hear about them in any way in the discussions that take place in this House and precious little is heard about them anywhere else. Yet, at the moment there is an in-depth survey—indeed, it is already almost two years on its way—by Prof Wilson of the UCT into rural poverty. It is the so-called second Carnegie commission of inquiry into the problem of poor Blacks, which is a counterpart of the inquiry into the poor White problem that took place under the auspices of the Carnegie Foundation way back in the thirties. After preliminary in-depth investigations, we recently had a long article by Prof Wilson in The Rand Daily Mail and The Cape Times in which he said that South Africa can ignore rural poverty only at its peril. We are not dealing with a handful of people when we talk about Blacks in “white” rural areas; we are talking about approximately two million Black people according to the 1980 census, people who are trapped in a web of grinding poverty in the rural “White” areas. Their position is made worse by the fact that they have no mobility; they cannot move to the urban areas because of influx control and they cannot move into the poverty-stricken homelands because there is no land for them, nor are there any employment opportunities.

Why do you constantly oppose decentralization?

I oppose it because it is not proposed to be done on an economic basis. I am 100% in favour of decentralization where it can be done economically. But there is no point in going in for vastly expensive deconcentration plans if they are going to fail the minute subsidization is withdrawn from those industries. All those 800 applications to go into the homelands to set up industries, for which we, the taxpayers, are going to pay wage bills up to R110 in Ciskei per month per worker for seven years, together with all the tax rebates—rail rebates, loans at low rates of interest to set up plant and machinery, etc—will only work as long as the subsidy continues. The minute the subsidy is withdrawn those industries will collapse like a pack of cards because they cannot compete with industries in the metropolitan areas which are set up for economic reasons.

How are you going to solve the question of rural poverty?

I would let people move to the towns. I would let them urbanize. We talk nonsense when we talk about having metropolitan areas that are over-populated. We have only one city in South Africa with a population of over two million. It is therefore absurd to talk about these over-populated metropolitan areas. Let people move to the urban areas and let us draw up a proper urbanization plan of housing and employment opportunities. That is the way one can solve rural poverty, not by investing millions of millions of rand in uneconomic projects. Let me give the hon member an example. Bronkhorstspruit is a growth point and about 680 houses have been erected at the township which, I think, is called Elangana. Those houses stood empty for two years, and now only 200 of them are occupied. People do not flock to these areas. They remain in the metropolitan areas where employment opportunities are greater.

Now, what is the Government doing about these people except, as I say, for going into these vastly uneconomic deconcentration plans? Mark my word—I may not be here to see it—but I am sure that in seven years’ time, if those fail, we will have lost millions and millions—hundreds of millions—of rand on these ludicrous projects, while we could have been spending that money on economic industries in areas where industrial development is a natural thing—by location, by the availability of raw materials, by the proximity of the market, by the availability of skilled labour, and of managerial talent and many other things, such as infrastructure and all the other factors that determine the location of industry.

You sounded that same warning some 13 years ago too, and it did not come true.

Well, just wait and see. Practically everything that I have said is coming true. [Interjections.] Just look at the urban crisis. Look what is happening in housing. All those things happened because the Government stuck to its ludicrous view of the temporary sojourn of Blacks in the urban areas. I have been talking about permanent urbanization as an accepted fact since I first came to this House more than 30 years ago. I did not do it then out of the brilliance of my own brain. I read Government commission reports, such as that of the Fagan Commission, the Economic Commission of the 1930s, etc. All those commissions predicted permanent urbanization as the natural consequence of rural poverty, and they have been dead right. Meanwhile the Government has changed its policy in that respect. It has also changed its policy on job reservation. Does the hon the Minister not remember the speeches which I and other hon members on this side made against job reservation? Does he not remember how we warned him that the Government would create a total bottleneck in skilled labour if it did not use the facilities of Black manpower? [Interjections.] The hon the Minister of Cooperation and Development should not tell me that what I predicted previously has not come true. Everything has come true, including, I might say, the growing discontent of Black people and their turning to violence as they lose hope of peaceful change in South Africa.

Let us take a look at what has been happening to urban housing. The Viljoen Committee reported two years ago that there was a shortage of 168 000 housing units for Blacks throughout the Republic in urban areas. Because the Government was intent on this policy of temporary sojourn of Blacks in White South Africa, and did not built any houses, this was the result. In Soweto alone, two years ago, the shortfall was 35 000, and it is even more now because, although something like 2 000 houses have been built in Soweto—and I should think, mostly by private enterprise, and not by the Administration Boards—the natural increase requires 4 000 houses per year—just to cope with natural increase—let alone any effort to catch up with the backlog.

The Government has now abandoned its view of the temporary sojourn of Blacks in urban areas at last. Only the Conservative Party stick to that. They are the only party in this House still sticking to the idea of Blacks in the urban areas being temporary sojourners. The Government has abandoned that idea. Unfortunately, however, at the same time that it has abandoned that idea, it has also abandoned the idea of its responsibility to provide housing for the low income groups. I should like to tell the hon member for Pretoria West … Do not tell me he has disappeared. [Interjections.] Sir, I have never heard of such discourtesy in my life. That the mover of a motion does not have the courtesy to remain here to listen to the speaker who is replying to his argument is something … [Interjections.] Well, he could have had a message taken. What sort of nonsense is this? [Interjections.]

He will be back here shortly.

Oh, will he? Well, then the hon the Minister should tell him, when he comes back, that the 500 000 houses now being offered for sale in Soweto and the other urban townships, at present anyway, do not increase the housing stock. It is only when the revolving fund so created is used to build more houses, that we can proudly claim that we are solving the housing crisis in South Africa. Nobody seems to realize that, Mr. Speaker.

Well, the hon member for Pretoria West has returned to his seat, and about time too. [Interjections.] I have been saying the hon member has no business to leave the Chamber while I am replying to his motion. [Interjections.]

I want to state that I am fully in favour of the private sector undertaking the building of houses, but not as tied labour and not as the only way in which to provide housing for the poor. The Government has now adopted a new housing policy, it seems, in terms of which it is not going to subsidize any houses except in these deconcentration areas. Is that correct? That is how I read the circular which was issued at the beginning of the year by the Department of Community Development and which gives as its fourth priority the provision of housing for people with incomes of up to R150 per month—practically the poorest of the poor. Is this therefore the Government’s new housing policy—that it is only in the deconcentrated areas that it is prepared to subsidize housing for the poor? I think it is bad policy. The Government must not abrogate its responsibility as far as housing in the existing metropolitan areas is concerned. I also think selfhelp housing is a good policy and, once again, the Government has at last turned to that idea. We are very glad about that. We have been asking for site and service for heaven knows how many years, and the hon the Minister has at last admitted that we are right. There should be site and service housing and we must lower our standards in the urban areas, quite obviously. However, selfhelp housing will only be any good if it is situated in close proximity to employment opportunities so that costs of transport do not become prohibitive. That is priority number one. Secondly, there must also be access to cheaper services, cheaper goods and cheaper building material. If one establishes one’s selfhelp housing miles away from the cities then it will be no good. It will be self-defeating, and that is one of the reasons why I am so worried about Khayelitsha. I visited this place the other day with the hon member for Gardens and I can tell you that what we saw gave us no cause for joy. It is a huge, flat area without a blade of grass and without a bush, a vast sandy stretch. Oh it has a lovely view of the Hottentots Holland mountains, that I will admit! But it is 30 kilometres away from Cape Town. There is no transport except a bus costing 50 cents to Nyanga, another bus costing 50 cents to Claremont and then a train to wherever people are going to go to work. The travelling expenses of those poor people amount to well over R1,25 each way each day, unless they are able to take out a weekly season ticket.

Do you want them to be placed on Table Mountain?

I want the hon the Minister to go ahead with phase 2 of New Crossroads as promised but I do not believe that there is the slightest intention of doing that. I believe that the people of Crossroads who were given a different undertaking, are going to be shifted to Khayelitsha. In fact, some have already been moved. There are 500 tin huts there glinting in the sunlight, hot as blazes in summer and cold as charity in the winter. There is a nice big school there and there is also a clinic, and that is all. As I say, it is 30 kilometres from town. I believe that all the people of Crossroads are going to be moved there as well as all the people from Nyanga, Guguletu and Langa eventually. That was the deal done with the Cape National Party MPs to get a new township proclaimed in the Western Cape. Sir, I despair of this Government, I really do!

What I have said about Cape Town and Soweto can also be said about Motherwell in Port Elizabeth. Last year the hon the Minister made a general statement that an amount of R300 million would be earmarked for Motherwell at Port Elizabeth for housing and infrastructure over the next three years. This was recommended by Louis Rive, the former Postmaster-General, who was sent to Port Elizabeth in order to clear up the terrible mess there. Sir, what has happened? An amount of about R10 million has been spent and yet an amount of R300 million was asked for over a period of three years. When can we get a commitment that really means something in time as well as in money?

I want to conclude by telling the hon the Minister of Co-operation and Development that emotional speeches in Parliament and fervent protestations at Press conferences are no substitute for positive action and firm commitments in time and money that are actually carried out. If he does not do this, sooner or later, nobody will bother to attend his Press conferences and nobody in this House will believe one word of what he says.

Mr Speaker, my perception of the hon member for Houghton yesterday afternoon, when I drew an analogy between her and a particular animal has been proved perfectly correct. During the two days that she was not here, she was up to mischief, and this morning she is once again up to mischief here. She is exactly like that particular animal. She has been provocative as usual. In fact, all in all we find her back to form. Nothing that she said is new to us. She makes the same speech every year, but for whose benefit she alone would know. I do not want to waste time on this unnecessarily, but I have to come back to one statement that she made and which is so far from the truth that I find it appalling that a responsible hon member can come here to make a statement like that. She says that the Blacks are not satisfied with the instruments created for them by this Government.

Are they then?

I had the privilege a fortnight ago to induct 18 of these councils, and I have yet to find one of them who is not happy and enthusiastically happy and very much prepared to do the work entrusted to them by the Act. There was one minor exception, and I put him right soon enough.

Did you lock him up?

He was happy after I had finished with him, and that I can assure the hon member. Mr Mayor …

Oh, that is the wrong speech! [Interjections.]

This form of address displays that I am absolutely carried away by the enthusiasm of those people.

I found those people very positive. Each and every mayor was enthusiastic about his task. He saw it in the right perspective and he said that they were absolutely intent on improving the quality of the life of their people. He said it was their duty and that they would do it. Some of them made quite horrible remarks about the people who attacked them during the elections and boycotted the elections. Make no mistake, there was a lot of intimidation during the election and that was the major cause of the lack of enthusiasm as far as the voters were concerned, but not as far as the people were concerned whose task it is to do this work.

The hon member also referred to the tremendous backlog in housing, a matter with which I shall deal in the course of my speech. The hon member must realize that we are facing a situation which is worldwide, viz the rapid urbanization and the volume of urbanization taking place all over the world. I have been told authoritatively that more than 50% of the population of Ethiopia lives around Addis Ababa. This is the sort of problem with which large metropolitan areas have to deal. People just flock there. There are no houses for them and there are no work opportunities for them. This is something with which we shall have to live and we shall have to work together. We should not criticize each other but we should co-operate in an effort to solve this tremendous problem. This problem does not only pertain to Blacks coming to White cities; it is a problem which has to be faced all over the world. Whites go to White cities, but the local authorities have not provided sufficient housing to meet this huge influx of people. This is not borne in mind, however, when the Government is criticized.

*As far as the urban Blacks are concerned, I just want to say that during the 1982-83 financial year the Government spent an amount of R95,56 million on the provision of 14 633 dwellings with the necessary services. During the period 1.4.83 to 31.12.83 an amount of R53 million was spent on the provision of 7 149 dwellings with the necessary services.

By the State or by private enterprise?

By the State.

Are you sure of that?

Surely the hon member knows me better than that. She knows that I do not make statements I am not sure of.

During the latter period an amount of R30 million was also spent by the State on the provision of services and infrastructure to premises for self-help building purposes.

As a result of this tremendous backlog in housing—we acknowledge it and are not trying to get away from it—there has been an overall shift in emphasis as far as the provision of housing is concerned. No Government in the world can cater for this backlog with state funds. We must obtain the support of the private sector and we are actively trying to mobilize it. Without the private sector we cannot achieve the objective of giving everyone proper housing. In the past the Government accepted responsibility—and still does today—for providing accommodation for the lower income groups. I am now speaking of people with an income of less than R800 per month. In that connection the following guidelines will apply: The creation of infrastructure so that as far as possible there will always be sufficient serviced premises available for anyone who wants to erect his own house or anyone who wants to make a contribution in the housing sphere. That is another encouraging sign that can be observed. We are witnessing ever-increasing private sector involvement. There are, for example, firms that tell us that they want to build 50 houses for their employees. We encourage this and make it possible for them to do so. We declare them to be persons who qualify in terms of the leasehold legislation so as to enable them to build houses. Hon members must go and have a look at the houses being built by institutions such as Sasol and Iscor. Those are luxury houses they are providing for their employees.

Within the limits of available state funds the state is also endeavouring to make a substantial contribution to the provision of accommodation to the extremely poor, ie those with an income of less than R150 per month.

Another practice that is increasing dramatically involves the self-help building schemes being initiated by administration boards. The hon member for Houghton spoke about the Black people on farms, but she would be surprised to see what our farming population are doing for Black people on their farms when it comes to accommodation. The hon member should go and have a look at the luxury houses being erected for employees in the Karoo and in the Boland. The houses have electricity, water and every other possible amenity. That is no longer an exception. It is becoming the general rule. These people realize that in giving their employees proper housing, they command their respect. They also realize that this increases the feeling of self-respect amongst those people and that they also want to give their children a decent education.

I just want to single out a few highlights of the housing campaign to show hon members that the Government is not indifferent to the housing shortage to which the hon member referred. We began with the construction of 955 houses, with services, at Ekangala at Bronkhorstspruit. We are providing funds for the installation of the infrastructure—the hon member referred to that—at Mother-well, where we have made 2 150 stands available, and at Kwa-Amaxgaki at Port Elizabeth we shall be making 1 826 stands available. Shortly very important announcements will be made in this connection. At Daveyton we have 1 442 stands available and at Khayelitsha 1 000 stands for self-help building schemes. No later than this year we hope to have more than 5 000 serviced sites available in Khayelitsha for the building of houses by the people of Crossroads. To keep hammering at the fact that Khayelitsha is 30 km from Cape Town is unnecessary. After all, there are no longer any more open spaces, particularly new developments, where people can live adjacent to business centres or places of employment. Soweto is more than 30 km from Johannesburg; it is therefore not an exception or a new kind of punishment we have thought up for the people at Khayelitsha. We also envisage developing 1 234 sites in Tokoza at Alberton for self-help building purposes. The next phase as Ekangala at Bronkhorstspruit will cost R10,5 million, because we are going to tackle that scheme.

I now also want to refer to the 99-year leasehold. During the past week we debated and passed a Bill here which makes leasehold considerably easier to obtain. We acknowledge, however, that we had problems with its introduction and it was no easy task getting it off the ground. I do not want to go into all the reasons now. In terms of that initiative we received, in 1983 alone, 4 711 applications from people who wanted to build their own homes in terms of the 99-year leasehold scheme. 1 312 of them have already been registered. This brings the total number of registrations of leasehold, as at 31 December 1983, to more than 5 600. Those are not insignificant achievements, since it was all achieved under very difficult circumstances. The sale of these properties or sites was initially delayed owing to a lack of surveyed sites, but over a period of four years we have made R48 million available for surveying sites. Unfortunately Soweto was not included in this, and the State has subsequently made a further R4,5 million available for the surveying of Soweto.

In 1983 a start was made on the large-scale surveying of all erven in Black residential areas, and in the space of approximately one year 105 000 erven have already been surveyed, with the remaining 315 000 still in the process of being surveyed. That is surely a phenomenal task we have begun with and are busy completing. A task that would normally take at least four years, my department and the Administration Boards are now completing in the space of one year. Some of the building societies are also acting as developers in certain areas. In one area the Natal Building Society and the United Building Society have, for example, each erected approximately 300 houses to date. The Urban Foundation is also contributing to the provision of proper housing for our Black people.

What about the backlog?

Backlog, backlog. What about the backlog? We are trying to wipe out the backlog.

One would think you came into power two years ago instead of 35 years ago.

That hon member does not listen to arguments. She just makes wild statements and does not want to take circumstances into account. I have tried to argue with her very reasonably, but I might lose my reasonableness and then we can make a dogfight out of the whole thing.

*The State has made deliberate efforts to bring the benefits of home ownership to the attention of Black people. An advertising campaign was launched and the media fully harnessed to spread this message. There are also financial benefits for buyers purchasing within the first year of the campaign. If a buyer meets certain requirements, he qualifies for a 40% rebate on the purchase price. The result is that in many areas there is still an increase in the sale of houses. The real impact, however, will only now begin making itself felt.

I believe that with everyone’s assistance, and with the new attitude and approach to this question by the private sector, we are very soon going to eliminate this housing backlog. All the initial teething problems involving leasehold premises have now virtually been solved. Now this process of home-building is gaining momentum. I think that within the next few years the hon member, who is now so vehemently attacking us—will be singing a eulogy—that is probably not possible, Sir—about what the Government has done to solve the housing shortage.

Mr Speaker, I move as a further amendment:

What is shocking and tragic about the P W Botha era is not only that the sovereignty of the White Parliament has been relinquished, but also that the surrender of the Whites took place under the banner and in the name of the National Party. The spending of funds, the establishment of structures and the drafting of laws may be initiatives, but they are no proof of problems being solved, and even less an indication of the direction in which the Government wants to move with either the Whites or the non-Whites.

The policy of segregation, of apartheid, of separate development, is part of the struggle of the Whites to preserve their identity and freedom, but it is also a policy which, based on Christian norms, seeks to give the other peoples independence. Both the White and the Black peoples in Southern Africa lost their freedom as a result of British imperialism, which in its turn was directly and indirectly influenced by the liberalism of the time. Over the years, and particularly after the Second World War, with the policy of liberalism, the enemies of the identity of the Whites as well as the non-Whites became far more cunning and more proficient.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order, may the hon member simply stand there reading his speech?

Order! The hon member for Rissik may proceed.

It was in fact the enemies of the Whites and of ethnicity in the world that disparaged the policy of segregation, of apartheid and of separate development. These attacks were made after a false image had been created in the world of the true position in regard to racial and ethnic diversity. As far as Africa is concerned, the healthy development of Black peoples was also disrupted for in the political sphere a policy of power-sharing between Blacks and Whites was accepted and this resulted in the elimination of the Whites in Africa.

As far as South Africa was concerned, there were a few factors which made sound national development difficult. The first factor was the unsystematic policy adopted in respect of the use of Black labour. The second factor was the inability and unwillingness of many Black people to control and to assimilate modern techniques of society and to generate independent development in their own areas. One could arrive at many other conclusions in this regard, but what I have said will suffice. The third factor was the selfish materialistic attitude of the powerful financiers in South Africa in the sense that they simply made money in South Africa and used White and Black labour unsystematically. The fourth factor was the contribution made by the liberalistic propaganda of political parties, church leaders and academics. A fifth factor was the irresponsible and hostile groups abroad. A sixth factor was a large number of leading figures who found themselves in the NP over the past few decades, but never really believed in the principles and policy of the NP and kept the policy and principles of separate development in check. It is those people who have in fact taken over control of the NP today. If one looks at the history of the NP, one finds that it was those people who were traditionally anti-Strydom and anti-Hendrik Verwoerd.

Who were they?

I want to mention the names of a few of these people. The first example I want to quote is Prof Piet Cillié. As everyone knows, he was one of the great thinkers in the NP, particularly in the Cape NP, and was one who exercised a great deal of influence in the NP. I want to quote from Beeld of Friday, 25 February 1983, from a report which dealt with a document which Prof Cillié published in collaboration with a number of other people. In this document he said, inter alia, the following:

He then went on to say:

He is referring to the HNP:

The professor went on to say:

He went on to say:

Sir, in the very same newspaper, a tremendous fuss was made about a speech which the hon member for Waterberg had made at Ellis Park. However, this professor said:

Here we have one of the anti-Verwoerd people and anti-apartheid people in South Africa. He was a academic in the newspaper world. I now want to quote another example, and he is a well-known NP academic, one of the thinkers of the NP, namely Prof Sampie Terreblanche. In the Sunday Timesof 27 March 1983 he said:

The professor went on to say:

He added:

He then went on to say:

He also said:

This is the second person I wanted to quote.

A third person is Dr Shlomo Peer, the chairman of the NP’s divisional executive in Houghton. In The Star of Friday, 3 February 1984, he said …

Pay no attention to him.

I do not like to pay any attention to him, but I wish to remind the hon member for Houghton that this gentleman is the chairman of the Houghton divisional executive of the NP. [Interjections.]

*This leader of the NP in Houghton said:

I made the statement that there are certain groups within the NP that do not want to state and maintain the policy of separate development any longer. I want to take my argument a step further and say that the NP has no desire to implement the policy of separate development.

Apart from these examples there are a few more examples I want to refer to. The hon member for Innesdal is a striking example of this kind of person, as is the hon the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Daan, you are welcome to oppose me in Innesdal in the next election.

No, Mr Speaker, I have my own constituency in which I should very much like to stand again. There are enough people who want to stand as candidates in Innesdal. [Interjections.]

During the past few years there has been a constant questioning of the term “apartheid”. Both the hon member for Innesdal and the hon the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs held meetings and even called a meeting of journalists to announce that apartheid was dead. However, when one questions them about this, they deny it and say that what is in fact dead is the caricature which has been made of apartheid. [Interjections)

Today I want to state categorically that the liberals of the world, those persons who see no sense in the reality of the existence and continued existence of ethnicity, will attack every term, whether we call it “moonlight and roses”, or “progressiveness”, or “apartheid”, or whatever name we give it. It is simply a fact that the term itself will always be attacked because the liberals or those persons who do not want to recognize the continued existence of ethnicity in this world, cannot abide the essence of the term and the principle embodied in it. I therefore want to state categorically here today that the hon member for Innesdal cum suis—ie the left wing of the NP—not only dislike the term “apartheid”; they also dislike what the term “apartheid” has stood for over the years. This has nothing to do with the so-called caricature.

What do you think apartheid stands for?

Mr Speaker, after all these years, must I still explain this to the hon member for Randburg? He is a member of the NP, after all, and ought therefore to understand it.

I want to know what you understand it to mean.

What I have always understood the term “apartheid” to mean is that in Southern Africa there is a diversity of peoples, and that one has the policy of separate development to ensure the continued existence of those peoples.

That is good enough as far as it goes. You should carry on and complete your explanation.

No, the hon member can rest assured; that is what apartheid means to me. [Interjections.] It is a policy which recognizes the diversity of peoples and groups, and which recognizes their separate existence. [Interjections.] Of course, the left wing of the NP no longer believes in this. [Interjections.]

Gradually, under the pretext of change and renewal, and reform and adjustment, of course, not only is the term “apartheid” being dismantled, but also the substance of that term, the sense and meaning of it as we have always known it. It is quite likely, I think that there are people in the NP who still want to quote the late Dr Verwoerd, as the hon member for Pretoria West in fact did here. However, the direction in which the NP is moving is the direction advocated by the hon member for Houghton.

Of course, the only problem is that the hon member for Houghton and her party know exactly what principles they support. They also know exactly in what way they want to bring about a position in Southern Africa in which a political or community structure will exist in which there will in the long run be a system of one man, one vote in a federal system. The trouble with the NP and the hon the Minister of Co-operation and Development—he would do well to read his own thesis again—is that they want to achieve the same goal as the hon member for Houghton. However, they are doing it in such a way that, on the one hand, they still want to cling to the old NP, while on the other hand they want to arrive at the policy of the PFP. [Interjections.] That is why they are already stumbling. That is why the NP no longer adheres fully to the policy of separate development, yet does not fully support the hon member for Houghton either.

Daan, you are a racist.

The hon member for Brits says I am a racist. Mr Speaker, there is only one question I want to put to him.

Daan, you are fighting for a better past.

Never mind, just wait, I first want to put only question to the hon member for Brits. It concerns racism. I want to use the Coloureds as an example in this respect. Since the NP says the Coloureds speak our language, belong to our churches, fight alongside our sons on the border, work in our factories, and are therefore just like us, on what basis do they place the Coloureds in a separate chamber, if not soley on the basis of the colour of their skin? Surely that is the worst form of racism, and that is what we find inherent in the policy of the NP. That is real racism. [Interjections.] I want to know from hon members of the NP on what basis they are placing the Coloureds in a separate chamber. [Interjections.]

In conclusion I want to say that as far as the CP is concerned we adhere to the standpoint adopted by the Sauer Commission in its report at the end of the ’fourties. We also adhere to the standpoint adopted by Mr M C Botha in Die Nasionale Boek, edited by A M van Schoor, in which he had the following to say in connection with Blacks in the White area:

Mr Speaker, that is why I say that the NP has taken leave of the policy of separate development and is gradually shifting towards the policy of the PFP. In contrast the CP still adheres strongly and clearly to the old standpoint which the NP formulated into segregation in the days of Gen Hertzog as well as the Sauer Commission in the ’forties and as it was formulated in the days when we were still members of the NP. In this connection I should like to quoted from page 5 of the programme of principles of the CP under the caption “Black peoples”, as follows:

This is the basis of our policy; this is the basis of what we have always accepted in South Africa and this is the basis on which one can preserve multinationalism in South Africa.

Mr Speaker, the problem in South Africa is that the official Opposition has made a caricature of NP policy. This is the first point I should like to make in this regard. We are trying to tell the world that this policy no longer amounts to superiority or White domination but that this policy amounts to equal citizenship for all the various groups in South Africa, that we do not begrudge the urban Black man a decent existence, and are giving him a say in those matters concerning him. While we are trying, on the one hand, to rectify that incorrect image which the official Opposition is trying to present of the country’s policy, the hon members of the CP say, on the other hand, that we are now dismantling the policy of separate development. You see, Sir, they are both doing the same thing, and that is to harm South Africa’s image abroad. The official Opposition and the CP are playing precisely the same role in this regard, except that they have different points of departure. [Interjections.] I am now discussing the policy of separate freedoms which the Government is still giving expression to. The hon member for Rissik … The hon member for Rissik must please pay attention. I listened very attentively to him, to every word he said. That hon member said that separate development and everything associated with it was now being relinquished. According to him, the fact that we are spending money in the Black states and on the Black people in White urban areas means nothing. He maintains that this is not the answer. We should rather consider what had been said by Piet Cillié and Sampie Terreblanche and that man in Houghton whom he referred to, and then the hon member for Innesdal was also dragged into the discussion. That hon member said that if one listened to those people, one would notice that a tremendous change was taking place; the policy of separate development was being completely overturned. Sir, I do not wish to repeat arguments which have already been thrashed out in this House.

The hon member for Rissik referred to the urban Blacks. But a person who is playing a major role in his party today, Dr Connie Mulder, told the world that Soweto had to become the most beautiful city in the world, and I think he was quite right. [Interjections.] The hon member’s standpoint is that the Blacks there should have no rights. The only rights he may have are those which the local authority allocate to him. After all, the hon member read out their policy to us here.

In contrast it is the attitude of this side of the House that the Blacks are there permanently. They cannot be removed. Once this is accepted, what should we do about it? We have to create structures within which the Blacks will have a say when it comes to their own affairs. As far as we are concerned this is basic. In this way we shall be in contact with these people, consult them and try to reach consensus with them. That is all that is happening today. All that is happening is that we are making contact with the Blacks in the White urban areas, consulting him and trying to reach consensus with him as regards what he wants.

Yet all this does not detract from our approach of vertical differentiation or from our approach to self-determination. All these approaches are still being subscribed to, but we cannot put a stop to the political aspirations of the Blacks, for example their agitation for civil rights. And what is wrong with that? We see that all the Black leaders welcome the fact that they will now have a greater say at local level and that they can do more for themselves. The hon member need only read what Mr Knoetze, chairman of the West Rand Administration Board, had to say about the fact that the Black man is now being given a greater say as far as the provision of his own accommodation is concerned. I have many newspaper cuttings in this connection. It is being said that more job opportunities will be created for the Blacks. One surely cannot call Mr Knoetze a liberal who wants to dismantle the policy of separate development.

Our approach is to be just and fair to the Blacks in this country. The Blacks in the national states are not being neglected. The hon member for Houghton said that there was “tremendous poverty in the rural areas”. We are not ignoring this. It is true that there is tremendous poverty. Why is this so? The hon member would seem to have forgotten that the rural areas of the Cape, the Transvaal and the Orange Free State have been experiencing a tremendous drought during the past few years and there are too many people living there. If there is so much “poverty” in the rural areas, I want to ask the hon member what the degree of poverty in this country would be if her policy of no influx control were to be applied. All those people would have streamed to the urban areas…

Much more opportunity for work.

The hon member says, “Much more opportunity for work” but in a drought-stricken area there are no opportunities for work. Let us look at what is happening today in our urban areas.

*At present we already have a tremendous unemployment figure. It is estimated that there are 500 000 unemployed Blacks. Now the hon member comes along and tells us that we should throw open the doors; that we would then have less unemployment in South Africa. [Interjections.] The hon member for Houghton should say a silent prayer of thanks every evening for the fact that there are two things in South Africa. In the first place there is a form of influx control in this country. I am not suggesting that it has all the advantages it should have or that it is absolutely perfect; changes can be made to it. In fact, the Riekert Commission told us that changes had to be made to it. The hon member ought to say a silent prayer of thanks for the form of influx control and the group areas legislation we have in South Africa, because if we did not have them, I maintain that we would have had the greatest poverty and the greatest inequality. To put it in a nutshell: We would have had misery in South Africa.

Mr Speaker, may I ask the hon member why the Government does not introduce laws concerning the movement of Whites? The laws in this connection are purely based on colour and they do not apply to Coloureds, Indians or Whites.

It is very easy to reply to the hon member’s question. There are many Whites who have moved from the rural areas to the cities, but before they come to the cities they make certain (a) that they have work and (b) that they have accommodation. Unfortunately it will take a very, very long time before the Black people of South Africa will be educated to such an extent that they will have exactly the same approach.

I support the motion of the hon member for Pretoria West.

Mr Speaker, I think it was the hon member for Randburg whom I heard saying that I must thrash them, but I believe that they have become accustomed to being thrashed.

†Reading over the motion, before us today the hon member for Pretoria West appears a little bit too optimistic if he thinks that we are going to support a motion which asks that we declare ourselves in favour of initiatives taken by the Government. The new initiative taken by the Government in respect of, for example, the Bill we passed in this House yesterday, and other moves are naturally welcomed, even by the official Opposition. However, it is difficult to apply a time scale in respect of all this. If one looks back at the record of the Government in respect of the subject under discussion here, namely the “Blacks outside the states and outstanding matters affecting those states”, one realizes that these matters have been outstanding for a very long time, there are problems requiring a great deal of unravelling and a great deal of effort to straighten out. This has to happen before we can even start making progress.

The hon member who has moved this motion, the hon member for Pretoria West, started by quoting the late Dr Verwoerd who talked about the commonwealth of Southern African states, and he made two points. He said that the whole question of good neighbourliness relates to political independence and economic interdependence. We are in a phase where the Government is accepting the permanence of the Black man in the urban areas. In the past that was an ideological black-out curtain, because although they were there, they were not accepted. Now we have reached the milestone where they are accepted and one must give credit to the Government for that. In that process of acceptance, in that process of urbanization, the economic interdependence is going to reach such levels that the political independence is going to become less and less. We will equally become politically dependent. We are already politically dependent on one another and as long as the urbanization process continues at the present pace, political dependence will increase at the same pace. Those who control the purse strings of the country and determine how the taxes of the country are spent, determine people’s futures. The vast majority of Blacks in this country will make greater and greater demands for their own social and economic upliftment on the taxpayer’s purse. There are a lot of arguments as to what their share is, what they are entitled to and what they contribute, but there is not enough time to go into that aspect today.

I want to deal with a point raised yesterday by the hon member for Randburg. It is a good point, which ties in with the question of outstanding matters affecting those states and the point raised by the hon member for Houghton in respect of rural Blacks in White South Africa, that is Blacks outside the national states. We in these benches feel that the regional development policy has missed a very vital point. It stands on only one leg, namely the subsidization of industry and has totally overlooked—I do not want to use the word “subsidization”—the input into agriculture, which is the second highest employer of Black labour in this country. If the regional development scheme had a second leg standing on assistance to agriculture in orden to create far more employment opportunities, a lot of the rural poverty and, of course, the pressure on urbanization would be eased. There are areas in the country where a third leg could in fact be put into play. Those are the areas with a coastline and great tourist potential. Certainly it is a very one-legged scheme at this stage and the question of looking into rural development and the provision of employment opportunities, as well as the actual quality of life of people in the rural areas, as was mentioned by the hon member for Randburg yesterday, is a very vital one. We in these benches feel that for that reason alone, the motion before us leaves a great deal to be desired.

The points covered by members were a little disappointing, because I thought we had got out of the old habit of quoting what who said when and of relating back to the past. As my hon leader has said in this House, our future is not to be found in the past. Let us look at the mistakes of the past and not repeat them and let us make sure…

Certain people do not like their past.

We do not have that problem.

Let us not return to that old style of debate, the crushingly dreary and boring debate over whether the National Party has adapted its policy or not. Of course it has been adapted, and it was long overdue. Whatever they like to say about the adaptation, whether it still remains foursquare within the principles of the National Party, is really not important. What is important is if it meets the challenges of the situation. At this stage there are certainly some very severe ideological restraints on the National Party which prevents the country from meeting the challenges which are contained in this motion.

For these reasons we will be supporting the amendment of the official Opposition, but in the hope that the Government will continue with its reform initiative at a greater pace and that their urgent attention to the Black affairs of this country will receive a great deal of support, not only from people within their own ranks, but also the financial allocation necessary to overcome the problems which lie before us.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for King William’s Town made each a fine, responsible speech that I expected him to support the motion of the hon member for Pretoria West at its conclusion. We were under that impression, but then he injected a false note at the end. We cannot find fault with the basic theme in his speech, viz that he feels that the agricultural sector in the national and self-governing states should be developed to counter urbanization. This is a thought which could be expanded upon.

Speakers on the Opposition side availed themselves of this opportunity to bring their political philosophy strongly to the fore. We do not wish to argue with them about this, since they have every right to do so. The hon member for Houghton sketched the pattern of the PFP’s view, viz that the existing order and arrangements should be done away with to an even greater extent, for example, that influx control should be abolished, without her having offered an alternative, specifically as to how those people should be accommodated. Another motion, which will be moved by the hon member for Yeoville, appears on the Order Paper today. I want to read it to the hon member for Houghton in case she has not done so. It states that this House requests the Government to take more active steps to combat crime and so safeguard the security of the individual and of private property. I want to assure her that if we were to throw the order in our structures of society overboard, we would have even more crime. Surely this is a logical conclusion. Since the hon member wants to quarrel with me, I want to tell her that this House may well consider calling the next cyclone to give us problems, Helen.

In one of the reasons he advanced as to why the development of the Black states is being impeded, the hon member for Rissik mentioned that this was due to the inability of Blacks to implement modern managerial techniques. That is probably true, but what we also know—he did not refer to this today—is that the Conservative Party is, in fact, dreaming of a White homeland somewhere. They call it Orania, or something to that effect. Whilst I was on a political platform in Marble Hall, a man shouted at me from the audience—one of the CP supporters—and said that he wanted such a homeland. However, coincidentally he owns one of the most beautiful and most fertile pieces of land in that irrigation area. I then asked him, “But who would get your irrigation farm?” Then he was silent.

You do not begrudge the Black man what you begrudge the Whites.

I should like to come to a few aspects concerning this theme, if the hon member for Langlaagte would only afford me the opportunity of doing so.

Mandela can have one, but we cannot.

Order!

Sir, those people want a White state, but they want Black servants there at night.

When we come to the initiatives in many spheres which have been touched on here, we could refer to a number of highlights. I am not going to dwell on these for long. In the sphere of industrial development we have Babalegi in Bophuthatswana, Isithebe in kwaZulu, Butterworth in Transkei, Lebowakgomo in Lebowa, Nkowakowa in Gazankulu, as well as Ekangala in KwaNdebele.

I want to dwell on Ekangala for a moment. There is interest in the giant which is going to develop there. The hon the Deputy Minister pointed to the interest shown in that development by the private sector, as well as the industrial sector. In addition, we, and the Natalians in particular, must make a plea that we should be careful that the Zulus near the upper reaches of the Tugela and in the Tugela basin area do not cause erosion, since the dams could silt up, and the waters of the Tugela are important for the supply of water to the Rand Water Board which, in turn, supplies water to Ekangala. One can therefore see how interdependent the regions are on one another.

I now come to further highlights. In the sphere of training we could refer to Medunsa, Vista University and the Technikon RSA.

In the second and third reports of the Select Committee on the Consitution (SC 10A—82) we can read the evidence and commentary of Dr Paul Riekert, Mr C H Kotze and Mr John Knoetze, to whom the hon member for De Kuilen also referred. These people are experts, In fact, they are world-renowned experts. They are expert administrators of matters affecting Blacks. One basic theme comes to the fore in all their evidence, viz that there is a need for expertise as regards Blacks and the training of Blacks. We are seeking a training facility to get people to be available and to equip them with expertise to get the State machinery in motion, there is a need for a facility to equip people to extend the administration of justice in such a Black state to its logical conclusion with success.

Now I wish to mention such a gem. Probably one of the initiatives that has proven to be the best the Government has taken as regards outstanding matters affecting the national states, is to be found in Soshanguve. This in service training centre for the training of officials of national states is indeed concrete proof of the fine co-operation between governments. Recently, an Israeli visited this centre. His name is Gideon Sarig. In his own language he wrote in the visitors’ book of that institution, “The best of Africa”. Who is this Mr Sarig? He is an expert in the field of the techniques of in-service training and community development. He was involved in this kind of training and advice in 17 countries in Africa.

Let us look at a few statistics in respect of that training centre. This information appears in reports of the department and is available for hon members to read. In the 1982-83 financial year, 15 Ministers went there for training. There were 75 office-bearers of legislative assemblies, 585 members of community councils and 75 chiefs and headmen. These are people who are being taught and assisted to govern their states successfully. There were also 245 administrative officials from the department for orientation purposes. A course on target budgeting was attented by 20 people. I could go on quoting these fantastic statistics. This is an achievement on the part of our people in this particular field since they are assisting in making the management of states a success.

I wish to conclude. There is a Pedi proverb they use in Lebowa. It reads as follows:

It means: A child who does not cry on its mother’s back, will die. The symbolism of this is that the doors of the Government and the department are open to the Black states. All our instruments are at their disposal. They need only come and ask. There is a great deal of goodwill, as well as sound attitudes on this side, as the hon members for Pretoria West rightly said, to put out a hand to assist the Black Governments to become successful Governments.

Mr Speaker, we are pleased to learn from the hon member for Standerton that the Government has an open hand as regards national states which have not accepted independence. I trust this will apply in respect of kwaZulu as well. There is a definite feeling amongst people in Natal that kwaZulu cannot quite be regarded as the NP Government’s pet; on the contrary, on a per capita basis kwaZulu receives far less money than it ought to receive for furthering its development.

The hon member really touched on a key issue when he spoke of the catchment area of Tugela. The real problem in that catchment area has been aggravated by the policy of the Government. The people living in that catchment area are mainly dependent on the economic areas of Pinetown, Durban, Pietermaritzburg and Johannesburg. If the hon member were to carry out an analysis of the origin of the incomes of those people, he would come to realize that their income is mainly derived from the urban areas of the country. What is more, the population in that area has increased. From where has it increased? From adjoining White farms. It is not possible, of course, to accommodate the entire population increase on the White farms, and consequently the people have to move elsewhere. They cannot move to the cities, so they move to the adjoining Black areas. This is the full story of Natal. To some extent Natal is becoming a suburb of Johannesburg and of the greater Durban area. The men work mainly in the city and increasing numbers of women and children live on land which is not in any way suitable for that kind of society.

†I should like to support the amendment proposed by the hon member for Houghton. The Government is introducing certain changes in its policy, but if one listened carefully to the hon member for Pretoria West one would have heard that he was doctrinally still talking about grand apartheid. In fact he paraphrased Dr Verwoerd when he referred to good neighbourliness and called it “samewerkende nasionalismes”. That, to me, is a strange approach. But what did the hon member for Pretoria West actually say? He simply said that grand apartheid was going to carry on.

It would be churlish of me to say that the NP has not made certain changes, and in fact the hon the Deputy Minister’s speech was interesting because he made it clear that the Government is committed to an extensive housing programme, and he is obviously proud of what is being done. However, I do not believe that that hon Deputy Minister is aware of how much housing we are going to need. It has been estimated that within the next five or six years we are going to need 2,5 million surveyed vacant stands to provide housing, not only for Blacks, but for other population groups as well, although primary for Black people. We will have to provide housing and we will have to do so without the aid of the private sector. It is one of the myths of this country that we think we can resolve major social problems with the assistance of the private sector.

It is often said that the poor-White problem in South Africa was solved by the Reddingsdaadbond. However, the Reddingsdaadbond did not solve the poor-White problem but was a pressure group that forced the Government into taking action. Nobody wishes to decry the work of the Reddingsdaadbond, of Ds Kestell and many other people, including the late Dr Diederichs, but by political pressure and lobbying that organization persuaded the Government actually to do something about the poor-White problem, and that is what gave pressure to that movement. I want therefore To urge the Government, the House and particularly the hon the Minister of Co-operation and Development, to realize that it is not good enough to talk about what the Urban Foundation, Iscor or Sasol does in regard to housing. What they do is commendable, but it is not going to solve the urban problem that we are facing at the moment.

Much as we should like to support this motion, there is such a glaring gap between the realities of what is actually happening and the initiatives taken by the Government that we cannot. I should like to point out few of these gaps illustrated from Natal. The first one is in regard to the role of Blacks on White farms. These people are often forgotten, and yet they are substantial in number. There are at least 3 million, probably more, of them, and the Black farm labourer plays an increasingly important role in our agriculture. He is taking on more and more responsibilities; he is in many instances taking over the job of the White foreman or “by-woner” and many farms are today managed by Blacks. For instance, in the southern Free State it is estimated that two-thirds of the farms are permanently occupied only by Blacks, while the land-owner resides in Bloemfontein or Sasolburg. Under the circumstances and bearing in mind the lack of training, those farms are managed relatively well by Black farm managers. This is therefore going to be an area which, I believe, we have to look at very carefully.

Let us for example look at the movement off the farms. We know that in the past 10 years the population of Qwaqwa increased from approximately 10 000 or 20 000 to between 200 000 and 300 000. Where did those 200 000 people come from in what is actually merely a big Free State farm? They came from the White farms of the Orange Free State. Where did the people in Overwacht come from? They came from the White farms of the Free State, not from the Transvaal, or Lesotho or Natal. Should one go and look at those Black spots it becomes evident that most people in those Black spots today, particularly those who have moved there during the last 10 to 15 years, came from White farms.

The result is that the farm-owner or land-owner finds himself in a very difficult position because if he gives somebody notice to leave his farm, where does that person go? If such a person does not find somewhere else to live, perhaps on another farm, he either has to creep into the town and become a squatter there, or—and in Natal this is very easy—he can move into an area of kwaZulu adjacent to Durban or Pietermaritzburg, and find somewhere to live there. In this way the squatter problem is simply being compounded. I believe this is something which needs urgent attention.

There is presently a commission investigating the question of farm labour and the conditions surrounding farm labour. In Natal, however, the Sunday Times recently highlighted the problem. That newspaper carried a report of a Black man who was found guilty in a court in the Colenso district of stealing cattle. The magistrate nevertheless declined to send him to gaol. Instead he gave him a suspended sentence because it transpired that this Black man was earning R12 a month. According to the farmer that Black man was happy to live there and was not prepared to leave his farm. The farmer also said that Black man received certain cattle rights, as well as free mealie-meal. However, even should one work that out, it is nothing compared with what he would get anywhere else. Why then does he not leave? He does not leave for a number of reasons.

He is conservative and he wants to remain in his own community, near his ancestral spirits. That is how those Black people express it. In the second instance he cannot leave for where else will he be able to get housing?

His children are at school there; that is also one of the reasons.

Mr Speaker, his children are not going to school because they also have to work for the farmer. [Interjections.]

That is a sweeping statement. You are talking absolute rubbish now. [Intejections.]

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Mooi River does not happen to live in my district. Should he like I will take him on a tour of my district and show him a few things that are going on there. I do not say all farmers do this. I can, however, take the hon member to farms bought by farmers who immediately closed the existing farm schools there. Does the hon member for Mooi River deny that that happens?

Yes, and I shall tell you why and what … [Interjections.]

So, the hon member denies that farmers close schools when they buy farms. Is he really denying that?

I am not aware of any such thing.

The point is, Mr Speaker, that both the farmer and his employee find themselves caught in circumstances imposed on them by the NP ideology. [Intejections.]

Order!

What happens, Mr Speaker, is that that farm labourer cannot leave that farm because he has nowhere else to go. He can obtain no housing from the local development board or Administration Board because they have no housing available. What happens is that the farmer finds himself in a position in which he cannot give that employee notice. So, what does he do? He says to the employee that he can live on the farm but can send his son to work in Johannesburg. That means that the farmer then ends up, illegally in terms of the hon the Minister’s legislation, allowing people to live on his farm while sending their sons off to live in a hostel in Jeppe and to work in that city for their money. In that way they send money home to support their family on the farm. That means that the whole system works against the interests of the farmer and of the farm labourer. That is why we are getting, in our farming areas, increasing tensions in certain parts of Natal. [Interjections.]

The price of a bag of mealie-meal, during the past 12 years, has gone up at least four or five times. That is a tremendously difficult problem for anyone who has to purchase his own mealie-meal. The effect of this has been—I am talking about Natal now—that Black spots are coming under increasing social pressure. We find then as well that farmers on farms adjacent to those Black spots become increasingly concerned on account of the pressure of the population adjacent to their farms. What does such a Black spot then become? It simply becomes a dormitory suburb for a city such as Pietermaritzburg or Durban, or even Johannesburg.

Hon members on the Government side made great play of the decentralization concept. In Natal we are categorized in region E for decentralization purposes. The great thing has been that we are going to industrialize a Black area adjacent to a White area. Certain of these decentralized areas are very sensible, while others are very silly. One of the more sensible ones, however, is in the Pietermaritzburg/Edendale area, where we have an area belonging to kwaZulu adjoining a very co-operative and friendly municipality, which is of course the municipality of Pietermaritzburg.

Business suspended at 12h45 pm and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr Speaker, before we adjourned for lunch I was dealing with the question of decentralized areas and the Government’s initiatives in those areas.

Clearly the Government has adjusted its attitude towards decentralization. Although many of the reasons for doing so have been political, there have also been sensible economic reasons. I want to draw the hon the Minister’s attention particularly to the Pietermaritzburg/Edendale industrial area. The object of declaring that area was to assist the unemployment problem in kwaZulu and Edendale. The hon the Minister simply has to approach the local community in Pietermaritzburg and Edendale to establish decent industrial facilities in Edendale and obtain all local assistance from the people there. I want to ask the hon the Minister particularly why there has been no industrial development in the Black areas adjoining Pietermaritzburg. I ask this because there is a great deal of goodwill and a desire to be of assistance there. That area also enjoys the deconcentration benefits. I want to ask the hon the Minister to consider this because this is an initiative I believe could come out of this present situation.

It has been estimated that in the Greater Durban area housing is required for 350 000 people. The hon the Minister appointed the Rive/Hankinson Commission to investigate what was happening in Durban. My information through the grapevine—and the hon the Minister may care to report on this when he speaks—is that this commission has prepared an interim report. I do not know if that is true but that is what I have heard. I believe that that interim report has been lying on the hon the Minister’s desk for some time. I feel he should tell the House why he has not responded in respect of this interim report. I also want to ask him, if he has not responded to it, why he has not done so and when he is going to do so. You know, Sir, this Government is very clever. The hon member for Standerton talks about influx control. All they do is declare large Black areas like Umlazi and kwaMashu homelands and then there is no influx control. All the hon the Minister has to do is to declare Soweto a homeland and influx control will cease to be a problem. The point is that these problems do not go away. The drought and the floods that we have just had in Natal are going to force people to look for some sort of economic relief. Where are they going to look for this relief? They are going to come to the cities. I believe that the hon the Minister ought to explain to us what is happening to the Rive/Hankinson report for the Greater Durban area.

The same problems encountered in Durban are encountered in Pietermaritzburg because, in fact, in Natal we do not have Black spots but we have White spots in a Black province. There is Black housing right up against the White areas and I do not believe that it is sensible in respect of any country of the world to have huge disparities in respect of poverty and wealth. Very often there is only a five-strand barbed wire fence separating one community with poor roads, no street lighting or sewerage and very limited water supplies from another community that has excellent roads, lighting and other facilities. I believe that that is fundamentally a bad situation to have in any society.

I should also like to point out that the motion of the hon member for Pretoria West is nonsense when one looks at the Blacks in the so-called White areas and Black spots of Natal. There are no decent initiatives there. We are all aware that the price of coal has rocketed during the past ten years as a result of the energy crisis. What have we found? We have found that Black spots adjoining coal fields are being systematically removed. A large number of people are saying that the only reason the Blacks are being moved is because the Whites want to get control of the coal that is under those Black spots. I do not necessarily agree with it but that is the kind of talk that one hears. There are situations such as those at Matiwane’s Kop and Steincoalspruit. I believe if there were real initiatives from the Government and if the Government wanted to save money and not waste money, they could develop those communities where they are and not move them 40 km on to the other side of some White area where they are put on to trust land, and when they are settled there, they are consolidated into a national state.

The hon member for King William’s Town raised the question of consolidation. I believe we must get a clear statement from the hon the Minister on what his attitude is towards the money which is being wasted on consolidation. The former Deputy Minister of Development and of Land Affairs, Mr Van der Walt, made the point many times that on consolidation we are going to spend R6 000 million and not one job would have been created except perhaps in the Deeds Office, but we would have done nothing for development in this country.

I know that the hon the Minister is probably only going to make a statement concerning new initiatives on 16 February, but certainly I believe that after 15 February we should get some indication from the Government of what they describe as “sinvolle kon-solidasie” because I do not believe that this country which is considering withdrawing from South West Africa/Namibia, because we cannot afford to be there in the present situation, could waste money on buying productive commercial farmland and then simply hand it over to peasant farming. I believe there has to be some solution to this wasting of our country’s resources.

I should also like to raise briefly the question of East Griqualand. East Griqualand has historically been a no-man’s land in South Africa. The Black people in East Griqualand are in a very invidious situation because they cannot get Transkeian citizenship and they cannot be included in kwaZulu. What happens now is that many young Blacks who live in East Griqualand find that when they turn 16 and they apply for a reference book, nobody is prepared to issue it because the kwaZulu Government tell those young Blacks that they have nothing to do with them and the Transkei Government has the same reply. One therefore has the situation of people being stateless in the land of their birth. I believe this is something that should be attended to because it is going to be an increasing problem.

As I look at the motion of the hon member for Pretoria West, I see no tangible signs of results from the Government’s initiatives in Natal. The one place where we could have seen it, has been in industrialization in Edendale adjacent to Pietermaritzburg, but there is nothing there. We could have seen it in housing projects in the Pietermaritzburg and Durban areas, but we have had nothing there despite the appointment of the Rive Commission. I really do not believe that any rational, reasonable South African even if he belongs to the NP, can actually support this curios motion of the hon member for Pretoria West and I therefore wish to support the amendment of the hon member for Houghton.

Mr Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon member for Pretoria West very sincerely on his positive motion and his fine contribution by way of introduction. To all the hon members who participated, a word of thanks and appreciation. We shall certainly be able to discuss certain matters in the course of other debates and when dealing with my Vote, because I cannot reply to them in detail now since this is not an opportune time to do so.

I should like to react to the speech of the hon member who has just resumed his seat by telling him that there is a campaign afoot with regard to the planning in Edenvale and that complex. Reports have been received from several bodies, and there is consequently no truth in the statement that this is not receiving attention. With regard to the Allen Hankinson-Rive Committee which I appointed, let me say that I am in the closest possible touch with them. In fact, Mr Rive is waiting outside for me to hold further discussions with him personally after this debate. Mr Hankinson was here last week. We are in close contact with each other. In my humble opinion they are doing an outstanding job, and as soon as we are in a position to make any public announcements, we shall be very glad to do so.

Is there an interim report?

As far as I know there has not been an interim report to which I should react publicly. I shall make enquiries about this, and if I am expected to react publicly to anything I have thus far received from Mr Hankinson or Mr Rive, I shall immediately do so in the light of what the hon member raised here. Various hon members, including the hon member for Houghton in her amendment, made mention of housing. My colleague, the Deputy Minister of Cooperation, gave a comprehensive reply on the question of housing. With regard to the question of “rural poverty”, I want to refer the hon member for Houghton to the Auditor-General’s report tabled yesterday. In that report it is stated, inter alia:

Are those “words, words, words”? I quote further:

†Surely the hon member could not call that “words, words, words”? What does that hon member want the Government to spend on so-called rural poverty? Why does she not read the American news magazine Time of Africa’s woes?

I have.

The kind of generalized statements of the hon member for Houghton to which we have become accustomed over the past 20 years bring us “neither here nor there”. As a basic approach it is suggested that we begin by asking what we understand by the concept “rural poverty”, particularly against the background of “Africa’s woes” and the famine and misery which is prevalent throughout Africa and which involves thousands of millions of rand and millions of people. Surely Western countries have a different approach to that adopted in other parts of the world. The composition of South Africa’s population reflects the fact that there are population groups at various levels of development. Is a fact, and it is equally true that there are certain groups which are less well off than others. To hold the Government responsible for all this is simply not being fair. It must be seen against the background of the almost R2 000 million spent on the improvement of living conditions. Hon members of the CP are continually attacking us, saying that we are doing too much for the Blacks. We heard as much again in the House today when an hon member said that various things were being given for the Blacks, but that there was nothing for the Whites. Let us at least be reasonable when we talk about these matters.

Surely the most important question is what the Government is doing to improve the lot of groups that are less well off. I have already given hon members the amount of R2 000 million. I want to add that in spite of the oppressive and lengthy drought, things are going relatively well because our economy is fundamentally sound and because the Government has launched efficient development, welfare and emergency programmes. I briefly want to furnish the House with a few figures in this connection. After the announcement of the relevant measures, drought aid committees were established in all the national States to plan aid measures in each national state in accordance with individual needs. We are represented in the committees furnishing their inputs. At the end of October 1983, with the aid of those funds, 669 boreholes were drilled, 361 of which were successful. I have never yet heard of a borehole being “words”. There are also 80 water tanks in use, 36 of which were specially purchased to provide people and their animals with water. The hon member must try to obtain a single water tank and he will find out how difficult it is. Sixty wells were dug. Just let the hon member try to dig one! But, she says, it is all a mere matter of “words, words!” All that happened in October 1983. Many kilometres of pipelines were laid, and in that brief period 23 000 job opportunities were created. Those hon members who are singing high and low here have never created one. Considerable quantities of food were supplied to the destitute and thousands of tons of cattle fodder were purchased and resold to owners of livestock. An amount of R20 million was made available for drought relief for the financial year 1982-83 and will be fully utilized by 31 March 1984. So we must be careful. We are not saying that there is no “rural poverty” in South Africa. Of course there is. We are part of Africa. What we are indeed saying is that we do not just talk about it, but actually do an amazing amount to combat the situation. The figures I have quoted here give a very clear indication of this.

I now come to the motion in regard to initiatives. Of the many initiatives that the Government has taken—as I shall be indicating to hon members in a moment—what is its biggest one? There is surely one that one should put at the very top of the priority list. The biggest initiative—and now I am referring, in particular, to the hon members of the CP—is that our policy in regard to the Black people, both outside and inside their states, independent and self-governing, has been clearly formulated. No one in this country can accuse the Government of not knowing where it is taking him. That policy is clearly set out in a single paragraph, and I shall quote it to hon members again:

Surely that is a great initiative, and let anyone get up now and say we are not doing this successfully. We have, however, even done much more than this. The words I have just quoted here were said by the State President at the opening of Parliament. We have done even more and have gone much further with our initiative in this connection. One must have a look at what is contained in the twelve-point plan. An election was held in regard to that plan. That was the National Party’s platform in the recent general election, and that is why there are so many of us sitting on this side of the House and why there are so few hon members sitting on that side of the House, including the benches of the official Opposition. This country’s voters did, after all, endorse this, and then the hon member for Rissik asks whether I would not be ashamed to meet Dr Verwoerd. I would be very glad to meet him. The first point of the twelve-point plan relates to the acknowledgment of the acceptance of the existence of multi-nationality and minorities in the RSA. They cannot be wished away. Point 2 of the plan relates to the acceptance of vertical differentiation, with the built-in principle of self-determination at as many levels as possible. The hon member may go and read the rest of the points for himself. Hon members on that side of the House say they do not know what the policy is, but the people know what the policy is, because they voted for it. We stand by it. The hon member can accuse me of all manner of things, but in the final instance it is actions that count.

Do you agree with Prof Piet Cillié?

We heard here yesterday, or the day before yesterday, that the Government determines the policy in this country. There are not, after all, people outside the Government who do so. I have the utmost appreciation for Prof Piet Cillié and I regard him as a very great and sensible man. He does not, however, determine policy for the Government, and he would be the first to say so. I, however, am now saying it here in the highest council chamber in this country.

There are also other initiatives the Government has adopted. I have already mentioned one. The second initiative, a mighty effort and one that many people allow to pass unnoticed, is that of promoting, in the interests of us all and of our children in this country, sound relations between Whites and Blacks at all times. How shamefully do the gentlemen of the CP not fall short in this connection! I regard this—also on behalf of the Government—as one of its first and most important initiatives. To what extent are we succeeding in this? I can quote from letters I have received from Black people and Black leaders, letters pointing to relationships based on as sound a footing as is possible for living human beings this side of the grave. There are indeed a positive attitude. History will have to judge to what extent we have succeed in maintaining good relations. I do not want to crow when it comes to good relations, because if I were to do so, I would perhaps specifically be jeopardizing the good relations that have been built up brick by brick, and with so much effort and sacrifice, and I do not intend to do that.

Of course there are many shortcomings. There are many problems. There is a biting of nails and, from time to time, a gnashing of teeth. There are sleepless nights. There are restless hours. There is a great deal of gritting one’s teeth. Sometimes there is also grief. There are many prayers. It is not for me to say whether it has all been a success. It is not even for this Government to say whether it has. History will have to be the judge. The people will have to be the judges: Blacks, Whites, Coloureds and Indians. As far as I and the Government are concerned, let me say that no matter what, we shall persevere in trying to promote this to the best of our ability—I with my modest abilities and the Government with its abilities.

There are also other initiatives that we adopted. Who can argue about the second initiative I referred to? Nobody! Do people want something else? I do not even want to ask whether they can do a better job because that would be an unreasonable question. The third great initiative we adopted was that of improving the quality of life of our people. We know, after all, in South Africa we are also living in the Third World. “To improve the quality of life”: That is something I am engaged in from morning to night. I cannot do more. That is what we are trying to do, despite all kinds of nonsense and vilification that goes hand in hand with that. It is a tremendous and difficult task, and the problem is certainly an appalling one, but from the data and the facts—not merely “words, words, words”—it is definitely apparent that in South Africa greater success is being achieved than in any other Third World country in any other part in Africa when it comes to improving the quality of life of the Third World people and having a better quality of life for them. That is an achievement. Let hon members now stand up and say that is untrue.

†Let us get a bit nearer home. Let us get down to brass tacks. Before I do that, I want to mention the initiatives this Government has taken under Mr P W Botha, the hon the Prime Minister, since he took office and since I became Minister of this department. In the latter half of 1979 the Prime Minister became the first South African Prime Minister to visit all the self-governing Black states. Was that an initiative or not? Was it a bad one? Decisions taken with the Black leaders included economic and social development in the national states. Was that “words, words, words”? He also visited Soweto, where he was given a tumultuous welcome.

That is three little words.

More than three for sure. I can get out the photographs of that period. These visits were a manifestation of one thing, namely of the great initiative to deal with South Africa’s most complex human problem—it is one of the most complex problems in the world—by way of consultation. It was a demonstrative deed, if ever there was one, by Black and White, which is a feature of the Government’s approach under Mr P W Botha and under myself as the relevant Minister.

Another initiative has been the removal of hurtful discrimination. This has been a target of the Government, which the hon the Prime Minister as well as other Ministers have stated. We are working very hard on that. In my Vote and on other occasions I will give evidence, not words … [Interjections.] I really want to make it hot for the hon member for Houghton as far as this is concerned. She must never say it in the House again.

A further initiative is that the Government acknowledges the permanency of urban Blacks. Surely that is no easy initiative. Another one is the implementation of the approved recommendations of the Riekert Commission. The two Bills which have been approved form important landmarks in the history of Black/White relations in this country. If the hon member does not see it that way it will afterwards be proven to be so. The fact of the matter is that initiatives are being taken. This is being done. The granting of 99-year leasehold rights also acknowledges the permanence of Blacks in urban areas. Another initiative is the joint undertakings—with 51% Black and 49% White participation—which are permitted to undertake development of townships. I can also mention the concept of a form of confederation of states led by a council of states, as well as the revision of the 1936 consolidation proposals. The latter is a very emotive matter for Blacks and Whites.

I also want to highlight the Ciskei referendum. If ever there was a democratic action, there hon members had it. [Interjections.] Ninety-eight per cent of the votes were in favour of independence. I have not spoken a word of the initiative in regard to KwaNdebele. That is a beautiful story by itself. The establishment on a multilateral basis of the Development Bank of Southern Africa is a tremendous initiative with potential if ever there was one. The establishment of a development corporation for small businesses is another example. That small business organization is doing tremendous work, not only here in the Cape Province but also in other parts of South Africa. I can also refer to the initiative on the promotion of the free enterprise system which calls for the abolition of restrictive rules and hurtful discrimination on the grounds of race. Here I can refer to aspects such as job reservation and equal pay. This goes by unnoticed.

Let me give hon members some facts. Statistics show that Blacks have entered the lower ranks of professional and technical positions in increasing numbers during the period 1970 to 1980. During this period 107 000 new jobs were found for Black clerical employees. Words, words, words? Eighty-seven thousand jobs were found for Black sales employees. In mining, production and transport services 396 000 new jobs were created. Words, words, words? Excluding farming, forestry and related services a total of 106 572 new jobs were created for Blacks during this period. That represents an increase of no less than 31,25% compared with the 1970 situation.

Another initiative is the concept of co-operation in economic development on a regional basis. The hon the Prime Minister himself gave the latest figures in the no confidence debate. Let me repeat it. More than R800 million has been ploughed into that sphere in a difficult period of economic stress, creating over 50 000 jobs. So, anybody accusing me and this Government of only using glib words, coming here making emotional speeches, not being capable and able to deliver results, is obviously begging the question. There are tremendous results.

*One of the first things I did, after my appointment as Minister of this department, was to stand up here in the House and ask for a special allocation of R9,3 million for Soweto. That was in 1980, and subsequently the development of Soweto took place by way of action and not words. What is the present-day position? This upgrading project has reached a stage where the Department of Co-operation and Development has, since 1980, approved R168 million for this purpose. On 31 December 1983 R132 million of that amount had already been spent, ie within a period of three years.

When I stood up here in the House at the time, I did not think I would obtain approval for the amount of R9,3 million that I requested for the replacement of the stinking sewerage pipes in Soweto. I myself had been to Soweto and had realized that if we did not make a start somewhere, we would never achieve anything. We tackled the conditions there with words and deeds. [Interjections.] Joel Mervis of The Sunday Times writes:

What did we manage to achieve in Soweto, within three years, with that R168 million? There were 176 km of roads and 92 km of stormwater drains constructed; 288 km of primary and secondary waterpipes were laid and 12 000 water meters were installed. I invite the hon member for Houghton and the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North to go and instal just one water meter in Soweto at about 6 o’clock on a Saturday evening. [Interjections.] We installed 12 000 water meters in Soweto, and over and above that, at present we have 27 000 water meters in stock for installation. There have also been 20 bus-shelters and 7 passenger transfer terminals completed; 13 bridges and through-ways were constructed, with a further two large bridges being built at present.

Today hon members can take visitors to Soweto at any time, even during weekends when those systems were subjected to peak traffic. They will at least find themselves in a city where the smell is quite different to what it was previously. There has indeed been colossal progress made in Soweto. The Greater Planning Council brought this about, and whilst taking the above decisions, we have teamed up the best people to ensure that the work is done. Where can one get a better administrator than John Knoetze? And a better one than Louis Rive? And this also includes other people I have appointed to help get the job done.

I should like to furnish certain figures relating to the electrification project. The project runs to more than R250 million. After I had heard of everything that had already been done up to that stage, I decided in 1980 that the Black Community Council of Soweto should accept full responsibility for the electrification scheme. That night, at about midnight, the former mayor of Soweto, Mr Thebehali, sitting in my office in the Verwoerd building, had tears in his eyes when he learnt of the decision.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No 34 and motion and amendments lapsed.

Mr Speaker, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

By special request I have been asked to speak softly for five minutes so as to allow the House to get over the performance by the hon the Minister. So there will be a quiet period while we discuss what I think is an important subject.

As regards the priorities which the individual sets for himself, surveys have shown that physical safety in fact ranks as the number one priority for any person. That is followed by economic security, and then only by cultural aspirations. Whatever else is the function of Government, it is certainly to protect the person and the property of the individual citizen. Unfortunately, Sir, generally—and I speak not only of South Africa—the twentieth century has seen an escalation of crime in most of the Western countries, and in Africa too as a whole there has been a deterioration in the maintenance of law and order. Many studies have been made of the causes of this deterioration. However, some of the causes are readily determinable. Those are poverty, distress and squalor. Poverty, distress and squalor are indeed the breeding grounds of crime. One needs only to look at the slums of the major cities in order to see proof of this.

Then the demand which exists in some quarters for drugs, ponography and other products which are not legally procurable, often has a tendency to increase crime and to attract criminals in order not only to provide those particular activities but also to seek to use those activities for further crime. One needs only to look at the development of crime in the United States at the time of the prohibition in order to see how this development really takes place.

There have been, both in this House and outside of this House in South Africa, many demands for more police protection and for firmer action against crime but never have such demands been made at a time such as the present time, a time in which we have to face the following phenomena. Firstly, there has been a spate of what one can only call impertinent public robberies at a high level. Here one can read just one quotation to indicate this. When the new. Divisional Commissioner of Police for the Witwatersrand had just taken his post his comment in connection with what he saw, was that the outstanding characteristic of crime in Johannesburg was armed robbery. That was his first comment upon assuming his new position.

In order to show how this has become prevalent, I may give one other quotation. That is the comment of a public relations officer of Standard Bank, who says that robbing banks is becoming as easy as buying a hamburger from a fast food take-away. This is perhaps a slight exaggeration, but I believe, it graphically indicates the view of a banking official on the ease with which bank robberies are carried out.

The second point which, I believe, is perhaps equally important is that there is a tendency to raise some criminals to the level of what can only be called folk anti-heroes. We have an example of that characteristic at the present moment. Only a day or so ago, on the front page of a Cape Town morning newspaper, the statement was made—attributed to a psychiatrist—that deep down everybody would like to be able to beat the system. If that is what everybody is trying to do deep down then somehow or other the educational system in South Africa is indeed failing. Secondly, what is even more important, is the question of what the contribution of the media has indeed been—both television and the Press—in respect of the building up of these folk anti-heroes into this kind of elevated position. This causes a position to develop in which, instead of the criminal being condemned, instead of the work of the police being encouraged, a kind of philosophy develops in terms of which these people are regarded as being after all the modern day Robin Hoods. The only difficulty is that they do not appear to be robbing the rich to pay the poor. They appear to be robbing the rich in order to live in accordance with the style to which they are neither entitled nor accustomed. That is the modern philosophy which is developing, and one has to ask oneself whether it is actually in the public interest that this kind of folk anti-heroes should be created in our society.

The third point which, I believe, is also a characteristic of our society at the moment is that the incidence of burglaries is so high that more and more houses tend to become fortresses of not only burglar-bars but also electronic gadgetries where people endeavour to protect themselves. I travelled down a road the other day and I noticed that there was not one single house in a long street that did not have some form of burglar protection. When one inquires about a house from an estate agent today one is told that buyers today want to know what kind of protection is available against burglary.

When we consider the growth of the security industry in South Africa we find that use is made of security vehicles, armoured vehicles, watchmen, dogs and other equipment. It has become a major growth industry in South Africa and there must be a reason for it.

There is also another factor. There was a time when people used to be able to walk around the centre of a city at nighttime to do some window-shopping or to go for a casual stroll in the evening. I challenge any hon member in this House to point out any central city areas to me in any major city in South Africa where window-shopping and strolling around at night is something that one can do without a degree of risk. What has happened is that that sort of activity has come to an end. The streets of the city are becoming deserted at dusk because of fear of assault. However, this does not only happen at dusk. Even during the daylight hours particularly elderly people are afraid to venture out because they fear muggings not only in the street but in the passages and elevators of their flats. They find themselves in a situation of insecurity at a time in their lives when they should be feeling secure.

The interesting thing which I think ought to be borne in mind is that in a society that is undergoing change, an escalation in crime constitutes a major threat to the stability of the community and of the country. This is something which I do not believe the community as such can afford.

I do not list these matters—and I could list many more—because I wish to create a panic situation in relation to it, far from it. I raise these matters not as a problem in an exaggerated way but I raise them in an endeavour to make an assessment of a situation which I do not believe is as yet out of hand and can still be dealt with provided adequate steps are taken and adequate resources are allocated. I want to stress the fact that this problem is not a problem of the police only; it is a problem of the community as a whole that has to be dealt with. The answer lies firstly in co-operation between the police and the public because, as I have indicated, it is not only a law enforcement issue. It is also necessary that the appropriate social action be taken by Government and private organizations in order to remove the root causes of crime and the conditions under which crime can thrive. There is no use establishing the biggest police force in the country unless one can actually eliminate the causes that give rise to crime and breed crime in our society.

If I may, I wish to appeal to the hon the Minister for a number of things to be done. I am referring here particularly to the hon the Minister of Law and Order. I also wish to deal with other hon Ministers including the hon the Minister of Community Development who is probably thinking he will come out of this unscathed while housing conditions are one of the causes that breed crime in South Africa, and he has as much to take action as has the hon the Minister of Law and Order.

Especially in May-fair.

So that is a factor that we have to bear in mind.

I want in the first instance to address myself specifically to the hon the Minister of Law and Order. The call that I wish to make—I have made it before and I will keep on making it until it is heeded—is that there must be more police on patrol duty, on foot and on vehicles, in the towns, cities and villages of our country. The police must be able to patrol our streets, they must be seen to patrol our streets, they must instil a sense of confidence in the people and in that way deter crime. Secondly it is essential that the conditions of service of the Police are sufficiently attractive in order to draw the recruits who are required. The hon the Minister has given some statistics and he has made some speeches recently in regard to what the present position of the Police is and what the anticipated and hoped for position is. The statistics may be out of date—I hope the hon the Minister will be able to supply more up-to-date figures—but the figures which were recently quoted by him indicate that there are some 18 302 White policemen and some 18 824 others.

Those figures are very out of date.

Well, then the hon the Minister should make more speeches.

He said that he needed 23 531 Whites and 20 469 others. He also indicated that the immediate need was for an increase of some 7 000 policemen, but he said that he hoped that he could eventually increase the establishment from some 44 000 to 68 000 and said that it would take some 10 to 15 years to achieve that.

We do not have 10 to 15 years in order to achieve that target. We have to take into account the population growth in South Africa and we have to take into account that at the present moment the proportion of police who are White in relation to the White population is just under 4,5 White policemen per 1 000 whereas the proportion in respect of Black policemen in relation to the Black population is less than one per 1 000. Therefore that proportion has to be changed completely because there is no question that in so far as the Black man is concerned he-wants and he is entitled to be protected against crime just as much as any other person in South Africa is, and there can be no quarrel about that. He is entitled to get the same protection and therefore to suggest, bearing in mind the population ratios, that some 18 000 odd White policemen and some 18 000 odd others would be adequate seems to me to be not a correct approach.

The hon the Minister has indicated in the past that he thinks some 2,7 policemen per 1 000 would be adequate for South Africa and for that he would need some 68 000 policemen. If 2,7 would be adequate, then we must look at the figure of White policemen which is close to 4,5 per 1 000 and yet those White policemen per 1 000 are inadequate to deal with the situation.

I want to ask the hon the Minister why that is so. I think there are a number of reasons for it. Firstly I think that if 4,5 White policemen per 1 000 Whites are inadequate, there can be two reasons for it. The first is that the police are presently tied down with too many administrative duties which could be done by other people so that those who are fit and able to do patrol duty, do it and those who are less fit and those who are elderly and perhaps some of the women can take over many of the administrative functions. I believe that we have to look at the whole of the Police situation in that regard in order to make sure that we use the fit and able policemen to the maximum of their capacity.

The second point that arises is the question of the courts and the slowness of justice. I have spoken to policemen, not one but numbers, and have heard the stories of how they have to go to court again and again and again for the same case, how they have waited there for hours. I heard exactly the same stories from members of the public who say that they do not want to be witnesses because being a witness means that one is kept waiting, that one is told to come back again. What is the result? There is a reluctance to be a witness in a case where there is a prosecution and there is a wastage of the time of the policemen in this. Surely we have to do something in regard to the question of expediting the work in the courts, and I believe the hon the Minister of Justice has a duty here to co-operate with the hon the Minister of Law and Order to see that this is done.

The question of night courts is one that has been talked about and considered, and there are many other things that can be considered, but with great respect we cannot allow that situation to continue where in fact we are wasting valuable manpower which could be used in far more profitable way.

The other matter is perhaps a much more delicate one, namely the question of policemen being used for anti-insurgency activity on the borders. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether it is not practical that he and the Minister of Defence should get together to investigate whether the policemen on the border cannot be replaced by Defence Force personnel so that they can come back here and indulge in anti-crime activity instead of counter-insurgency activity. This does not mean that I want to weaken the fight against insurgents and terrorism, but it is important that the stability of internal South Africa be maintained. It does not help merely to deal with insurgency on the border when you have threats to stability inside South Africa. The very reason why we are fighting on the border is because we want to have stability inside South Africa. I believe that a review of this situation is necessary and that this problem needs to be dealt with at the earliest opportunity. If you are going to get the number of policemen you need, namely 68 000, in the short period of 10 to 15 years, you have to create the infrastructure to do it. You need the training facilities and everything that goes with it to do it. We have to create that infrastructure at a greater speed than we are doing it at the moment.

The hon the Minister will permit me to come back to what is perhaps my favourite subject, namely the local police station. I am indebted to the hon the Minister for his decision to give my constituency back the police station we have been battling for and to reopen it, but the plea is not only for a police station in Yeoville, but for police stations in local areas in similar conditions in other parts of the country. I believe, and I think I can prove it, that the existence of a police station in a suburb is a stabilizing factor. It helps in the fight against crime and it gives confidence to the people who are living there. It creates a far better relationship between the police and the people and the people they serve. That is why I make the plea for local police stations. It is a most remarkable situation. When this whole idea of closing down police stations arose, I was a member of the Provincial Council. I went to a meeting and opposed the closing of police stations. I was told that by closing police stations we would have more men on the beat, we would have people on mopeds riding around so that there would be greater coverage. This did not happen. What has in fact happened? There is a classic example of what happened in the constituency of a colleague of mine where they sent demolishers to demolish the house next to the police station and they demolished the police station by mistake. Yes, the hon the Minister of Community Development can look up. They demolished a police station by mistake. However, I have to say it to the credit of this hon Minister who was left with the baby, that he wants to re-establish that police station. With great respect, Sir, we need local police stations.

This brings me directly to the next issue, namely the campaign to improve the relationship between the police and the public. Nobody can run away from the fact that the relationship is not as good as it can be. It may not be as bad as some people think it is, but I think it can be a lot better. That is why I have suggested to the hon the Minister that there should not only be local police stations to establish the contact, but Police Days in all areas so that the public can get to know what the police do. Policemen will then be able to show themselves in an environment which instils confidence in them. It is vitally important that the relationship between the police and the public should be the best it can possibly be. That immediately leads to the next fact. I think the public should be encouraged and educated to take more effective steps to protect themselves. It is no use saying that we have no duty to do anything for ourselves, that we can leave our houses open and walk anywhere and do anything. The reality is that you need to be educated to take steps to protect yourself. There are already certain forms, pamphlets and posters available, but I regret to say that they are not effective enough and I believe they are not, if I may use the term, adequate enough to convince the public to act at the moment. More needs to be done in this regard.

I want to come back to something I have already dealt with, namely the question of the folk anti-hero. I believe that one should get greater co-operation from the media in the fight against crime. There are critics of the program Police File on television but I actually think that program does a good job because it produces results. It can make mistakes and do things that are not absolutely perfect but it has shown itself to be worthwhile. If that could be extended, not only in that field but also in other fields regarding the media, the police could get very substantial assistance.

I would also like to deal with the question of firearms and other weapons. I think this country is becoming a weapon-crazy place. When there is a possible suggestion in the Press that the number of firearms per family might be reduced to below 12, there is an outcry. I can understand that a collector wants a collection of things, but he is a particular person. What normal family requires 12 firearms? It is ridiculous and absolute nonsense. We have become firearm-happy and the more firearms there are around, the more possible it is for the abuse of weaponry. It is not only a question of firearms but of knives and other weapons as well. One can even buy blowpipes in Cape Town which can kill people at a range of 20 feet.

They had better not bring that in here! [Interjections.]

Yes, it is within range of the Cabinet! [Interjections.] These things need attention and we need to look at them objectively.

I wonder if we should not get together in this House, perhaps on a select committee, in order to work out more effective means of protecting the public against crime. We could work together on such a committee and it could demonstrate that much can be achieved.

I want to end on the note on which I started. It is not enough for me to say all these things to the hon the Minister of Law and Order. If the social and economic conditions which breed crime are not dealt with one is sabotaging the work of the police. The reality is that we need to deal with housing, job creation and the conditions that breed crime. We need to have a feeling in the community that the community as a whole will deal with crime. We need to get away from the attitude that when we see our next door neighbour being assaulted, we pretend not to see it and we do not help him. We need to develop a new spirit in South Africa regarding these matters and if we can deal with the social and economic situation in South Africa, the task of the police will become much easier and crime can be kept under control. We will then be getting somewhere in the interests of stability in South Africa.

It seems to me that the question is how close a police station should be built to a dwelling.

Mr Speaker, I think the hon member for Yeoville deserves our appreciation for moving this motion here today. It creates an opportunity to discuss a subject which is of great importance to us and usually, where security and other controversial matters come into play, the police debates often become heated and we seem to lose the thrust of the central theme which we would like to address this afternoon.

I do, not wish to be the proverbial fly in the ointment, but I do find fault with the hon member’s motion. It is not the tone in which he moved it but the motion itself which to my mind does not place on record our gratitude and appreciation for the positive steps which are being taken by the Government to combat crime and to safeguard the security of the individual and his private property. I should therefore like to move as an amendment:

1. (1) thanks the Government and the South African Police for the active steps taken by them to combat crime and so to safeguard the security of the individual and private property; and
2. (2) notes with appreciation the part played by the public and the media in assisting the South African Police in the combating of crime.”.

I do not want to reply directly to a number of issues raised by the hon member, but will rather concentrate on the theme of his speech, namely how the public can be involved to a greater extent in addressing this problem. I do, however, have a difficulty with the hon member’s argument. On the one hand it seems to me—I am not sure that this is so—that he is complaining about the large number of houses with burglar protection while at the same time he also advocates that the public should protect themselves. I do not want to get into a debate with the hon member about this.

I said burglarproofing is a symptom.

The hon member may be right.

The hon member quoted Brigadier Genis on his appointment as Divisional Commissioner for the Witwatersrand. What struck me about the brigadier’s first Press conference was the fact that he is also endeavouring to create a better relationship between the public and the SA Police in attempting to solve the problem of crime in this country.

*It is right that the public should protest against the criminal act which violates the rights of the individual. It is also right that the public should demand protection of its interests from the authorities. Everyone knows the frustration and even the feeling of powerlessness when you or your family are the victims of the criminal’s acts. It is equally correct that the SA Police still regards it as a primary duty to investigate reported crimes and to be involved in the prevention of crime. In spite of all the successes which the SAP has to its credit, it is powerless if the community does not co-operate.

For the sake of interest, I want to quote with approval today from The Sowetan of 28 July 1982. In particular, two extremely important points are made in the editorial of The Sowetan. The first aspect is the one to which the hon member for Yeoville referred, namely the fact that socio-economic problems have a spill-over effect on the behaviour patterns of the people who are affected by these problems. Furthermore, the editor-in-chief of The Sowetan proposes that a debate should be initiated to examine the problem of dealing with crime. I now want to quote exactly what the editor said about obtaining the co-operation of community activities:

I believe the attitude which is shown here of wanting to involve the entire community in the prevention of crime is praiseworthy. The attempts that are being made to involve the public by making them aware of the contribution which they should make to the successful combating of crime deserves our praise. Police officers responsible for the prevention of crime have already addressed three-quarters of a million people and distributed approximately 2 million pamphlets to involve the public in this campaign. Thanks to the positive role played in this by the media—I am referring to the radio, TV and newspapers—this campaign has had positive results. Police File deserves special mention here. 1 300 cases have already been solved as a result of information supplied by the man in the street after watching this programme.

In each police district there is a police officer charged with the task of studying crime problems in that area and considering methods for combating them effectively. In spite of steps that are being taken, the incidence of serious crime still shows a rising tendency. Over the past two years, serious crime has increased by 6,7%. From the most recent annual report, the one for the year 1981-82, it appears that the SA Police handled 1 million serious crimes. They dealt with 8 000 murders, 15 000 rapes, 44 000 car thefts, 139 000 burglaries and 120 000 serious assaults. When the situation is compared with that in the USA, a favourable picture emerges. In the USA, the crime rate has increased by 38% over the past 10 years, in West Germany by 47% and in the city of London by approximately 34%. The statistics that I wish to quote now are slightly out of date, but it is nevertheless interesting to note that in the 1980-81 financial year, the increase in the number of reported murders was 7,46%, while the number of rapes increased by 0,60%, the number of burglaries by 1,54%, and the number of car thefts by 6%, while there was a decrease of 1% in the incidence of stock theft and 9,75% in the number of cases of robbery with aggravating circumstances.

We recently received a very interesting piece of research. I am referring to a research document published by the HSRC and entitled “Crime and the Community”, newsletter 141. In it, the results are given of research that has been undertaken on this subject among the White, Coloured and Indian communities. I think it is worth referring to this is some detail. I quote:

Let us consider the results of the research concerning the fear of crime:

Among the Coloured community it appeared that the fear of crime caused 40% of the Coloureds to state that they felt very unsafe, and 23% that they felt somewhat unsafe. 10% of the Whites involved in the survey admitted that they had changed their habits or reduced their social activities as a result of a fear of crime. Here is another short quotation which I believe to be important:

This research concentrated on the victim, and I believe this to be of vital importance, because it enables us to develop alternative strategies for the combating of crime. Crime is not combated by concentrating on the offender only, but by community action against crime, and by educating the public.

Many measures which I shall call formal steps are being taken to combat crime, and some of my colleagues will discuss these more fully. However, I want to make a few remarks about the informal steps that are being taken. The reports from The Sowetan which I have quoted, read in conjunction with the findings in the HSRC report, indicate a need to give serious consideration to penalties imposed in South African courts. Penalties should serve as a deterrent and as such they are a means of preventing crime. Furthermore, it appears from conversations and upon closer inspection that the Magotla has a poor image as an informal system of punishment and has been abused, but in this connection, the editor of The Sowetan advocates that the debate surrounding this approach should be reopened.

In my opinion, the police should do more to be regarded as a friend of the public, and not merely as the enemy of the criminal. I believe it is correct to say that people like to see the blue light burning outside the police station, but that blue light should not be seen only as a symbol of protection, but also as a symbol of the friendly relations which the police wish to maintain with the public. A great deal can be done in this field. I am not familiar with the ideas expressed here by the hon member for Yeoville concerning open police days, but in its attempts to establish friendly relations with the public, I believe, the police can do a great deal, with the help of other institutions, to combat idleness and unemployment.

Finally, I believe it to be of vital importance that we should try to maintain the best possible relations with the media, to be frank with them and, when we cannot do that, to gain their sumpathy, so that the positive co-operation and understanding which exist at the moment may be promoted.

Mr Speaker, it does seem as if we are not really going to disagree with one another about this subject this afternoon. However, I move an amendment on our behalf, as follows:

When we speak of crime we can begin by splitting the concept into two categories. The first is the cause of crime, and the second, of course, the consequences of crime. If we are able to combat or reduce the causes of crime to a large extent, then we have made a very good start. Crime is as old as humanity itself. People who have made the wrong choices, who have made the wrong choice between good and evil, have of course also been known since the dawn of humanity. Accordingly, punishment of crime is also as old as humanity. This is nothing new that we are dealing with now for the first time. We have always had to deal with it since the earliest times.

Punishments, perhaps, differ from what they were in earlier times. Even the death sentence is no longer the same. It is no longer as crude or cruel. It is simply carried out more quickly and less painfully. Nevertheless, since the earliest times people have been punished for crimes. It is as well that we should deal with this subject today. We are also pleased that the hon member for Yeoville broached this topical matter here today, and that he moved an amendment with regard to the combating of crime. What we say, in discussing this subject today, we say from personal experience, because nowadays this is something everyone has personal experience of. Nowadays, whenever one opens a newspaper, one notes that a very large percentage of the space in that newspaper is devoted to crime reporting. This includes theft, murder, burglary, rape and smuggling. There is hardly anything else left to read in newspapers other than reports on crime. Such reports are really the order of the day. A tremendous amount of space is devoted to this in newspapers; sometimes, I believe, too much.

Crime is an action performed by a person to gain something for himself at the cost of another; often at the cost of society, and sometimes at the cost of a people, too. The whole community suffers from crime, and nowadays people feel uncertain in every sphere. People feel uncertain and often have to insure and protect their properties at enormous cost. Moreover, it is becoming increasingly difficult for old people and women to live alone. Nor can women walk in the streets and do their shopping nowadays. They are also exposed to bagsnatchers and—as the hon member for Yeoville said—nowadays, perhaps far more than ever before, we miss that freedom we always used to enjoy of simply strolling down the street window-shopping. We no longer enjoy those freedoms today because we have to be so careful where we go and what we do.

Therefore crime is to an increasing extent limiting our freedom and our recreation. It has become a considerable threat to us. Unfortunately there is another side to development and progress. It is that they also provide the instruments and knowledge whereby to develop crime into a refined technique. This, in turn, requires that our security forces and our security services have to combat crime using that same knowledge and refined technique. This means they have to spend a great deal of their time studying these matters and putting them into effect.

Accordingly, we wish to pay tribute here in particular to policemen and policewomen, who have also had to develop the necessary skills whereby to combat crime to an exceptionally high level. It must be mentioned that women, too, play their role in the protection services. Here, too, just as in all the other spheres which women have entered, they perform their task with great responsibility and, indeed, with great success. And yet they do so in a genuinely feminine way. Women’s intuition and instinct are the characteristics which mean so much to her in carrying out her duties as one of the members of the protection service. We also wish to thank and pay tribute to the wives and children of these people who work in the Police Force and who are responsible for our safety and for the combating of crime. They do without a peaceful family life in order to ensure us our safety. While they toss about on their beds at night worrying, perhaps, about a father or son who has to do his duty in great danger and in difficult circumstances, we lie sleeping peacefully. We convey to them our sincerest thanks. We do feel that we should accord these people far more thanks and appreciation and that we could do a great deal more to improve their conditions of service and their status as well.

We wish to convey a special message of thanks to the people who have to maintain law and order in Parliament and who are responsible for the safety of Parliament and its people. It is routine work. It is probably not always very pleasant to stand guard hour after hour. The services of these people are profoundly appreciated.

Perhaps we might also refer to another aspect of this matter. On 30 June 1982 the prison population was already 91 092, far more than the 74 423 prisoners for whom accommodation is provided in our prisons. The question is just: What went wrong in the lives of this prison population? What caused them to change their views to such an extent? Why did they have to commit crime?

Let us consider briefly the way of life of our youth. I feel that the people that invests in its youth is the people that invests in its future. Therefore, when we speak about the combating of crime, it is imperative to investigate the situation among the youth. Perhaps it is too late to do much about those who have already chosen the paths they will tread. However, I do feel that nowadays the gap between right and wrong is growing narrower. I agree with the hon member for Yeoville that the media, that bring the world in all its facets into our sitting-rooms and our houses, provide us with breathtaking details. They are blunting the sense of judgment of the youth. Nor are they always able to get their priorities straight. Materialism today is rampant. The advertising world propagates so much so attractively that the viewer is motivated to obtain these luxuries, sometimes at all costs, irrespective of the method he resorts to.

Moreover, the media often present criminals as heroes. This thirst for adventure which is aroused by some broadcasts, among the youth in particular, is disturbing. They see the clever, ingenious crooks and murderers as heroes. Apart from that, to an increasing extent the family is no longer the safe haven for children that it used to be. In many instances the children and the youth of our people are no longer given love, security and discipline. Children from broken homes sometimes have to find their own ways to occupy their time, and many people who endured injustice and uncertainty in their childhood years try to get along by seeking something else, by seeking a different way to prove their own value, and often they select the wrong way of going about it.

If a child grows up in a home with sound moral, religious and disciplined norms, then that child is able to assimilate things he or she sees in society and in the media. He can assess them properly and accept or condemn them. He knows what to choose. Uncertainty entails that the fighting spirit and perseverance dwindle and sometimes disappear entirely. The pursuit of spiritual values which demand more of one and require willpower must be encouraged at all times, and encouragement by parents and the community is imperative. After all, the person is irrevocably the sum of his descent, his environment, his education and his experience. A philosopher once put it very well: “I am part of all that I have met.”

The ability to assimilate things is a very good characteristic that we can inculcate among our youth. The business world and the entertainment world come to take up so much of the time of our children that in fact there is no longer much time for a child to be a child and to play. I think that this has a profound influence on our youth. We must carefully and conscientiously create a climate in which our youth can become valuable and positively-oriented citizens of this beautiful country of ours. They must respect, and help to protect, the life and property of others. We must see whether we are not able to instil in our children the ability to live and develop in the right way. A child who feels safe is a child with self-confidence.

I think that we all have compassion for those unfortunate children who are victims of the deadly cancer of crime. We must mobilize our youth. We must make them jointly responsible for safety and for the combating of crime; we shall thereby promote the image of honesty and that is very important. Promote the image of our protection services in uniform.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to dispute what the hon member for Germiston District said this afternoon. There is a great deal of unanimity among all the hon members discussing this motion. Then, too, I honestly do not think I should, in the limited time I have allow myself to be led astray by the hon member for Yeoville’s argument. If I still have time at the end of my speech, I should like to give a little more attention to a few of the aspects he raised, and possibly agree with one or two points he made.

†I am very sure that the hon the Minister will at a later stage reply fully to the speech of the hon member for Yeoville. I think he will find that every positive and viable suggestion would be welcomed by the Department of Law and Order and also by the hon the Minister. The safety of the public and the proper safeguard of property and other assets of all South Africans and the stability of all its peoples is of paramount importance to the Government and in particular the Department of Law and Order. The Government has over many years realized its responsibilities in this regard as is clearly shown by the increase over the years in the amounts voted for the worked of the SA Police.

*It is very interesting to note that the amount voted for the SA Police budget for the year 1960-61 was £18,1 million. By the 1970-71 financial year this had risen to R104 million. In the 1978-79 financial year it was R220 million and in the 1983-84 financial year R564 million. Police services have not only expanded dramatically, but care has also been taken to ensure that this department has at all times kept up to date with the latest techniques and that it has even taken the lead in many fields by introducing new methods and techniques.

The hon the Minister will finish more statistics later, but I do feel that it is appropriate to point out that since the 1978-79 financial year the establishment has increased from 38 700 to 44 000 last year. On 2 May 1983 the hon the Minister indicated that he foresaw that within a few years—I could not find any reference in that speech to the period of ten to 15 years to which the hon member for Yeoville referred—the establishment would have increased to 68 000.

All these figures indicate very positive and strong growth in the SA Police. I do not think one could say that there is any hesitation in recommending that young people make the police force their career. Nowadays the SA Police offers a challenging and satisfying career. In this connection I want to pay tribute to the Minister because I feel that without doubt one could say that since he became Minister of Law and Order, he has done a great deal to improve the wage packet of members of the force. We are grateful that the Government has made all this possible.

If one had the time, it would be a pleasure to mention all the branches of the police force, from the Sanab branch, the security branch, the murder and robbery division right down to the lowest level. Day after day, each of these branches does excellent work. However, my time is very limited and I therefore have to concentrate on a few matters.

The hon member for Yeoville referred in passing to the Stander gang and said that they may have been blown up by the Press into something they should never have been. However, I want to point out that the successes which have already been achieved by the murder and robbery division of the SA Police in this connection have undoubtedly made the task of this gang very difficult. At this stage they have very little room in which to manoeuvre and they cannot do much.

I should like to pay tribute to Brigadier Mike van der Linde and his men of that murder and robbery squad. I have a list of the items which this investigations team has already recovered and I should like to read it out. In the first place, there are the three houses which were used as hide-outs by the gang. There are two in Houghton and one in Linmeyer, all three within a radius of 20 kilometres of each other. A large number of vehicles were also recovered: One Mercedes Benz which was stolen; one BMW of which no record has so far been traced; one Cortina which was stolen and used in robberies; one Chevrolet, which was stolen; a Porsche which was stolen; one four-wheel drive Suzuki bakkie, which was purchased by the gang; one Suzuki bakkie of which no record could be traced; a BMW which was stolen and a Yamaha motor cycle of which no record has so far been traced. Cash was also recovered. An amount of R15 161 in South African money was recovered. In addition 5 000 British pounds as well as bank notes of various other countries to the value of R10 000 were found on these premises. So far various weapons have also been recovered. There were 12 fire-arms, three shotguns, one .223 mini Ruger rifle, three .38 revolvers, one .357 Magnum revolver, four 9 milimetre pistols and 1 445 rounds of ammunition of various calibres. In addition three portable radios, one of which was marked “Zonderwater” were recovered. Other items which have already been seized include a yacht, for which an amount of R219 000 was paid, three television sets, hi-fi radio, a video machine, a refrigerator, hi-fi equipment and one police uniform.

There is one aspect which I find particularly strange. Surely certain general bank procedures apply. Before an account can be opened by any member of the public, that person has to identify himself properly with an identity document. He also has to give trade references and the credit-rating of a person has to be determined. Under normal circumstances these inquiries have to be made. If there is no record of such a person, surely that should arouse suspicion. One wonders how Stander and his friends were able to get past all these measures of the banking institutions. If a new client deposits large sums of money in a new account, this normally arouses suspicion. Apparently these were new accounts. Various sums of money were also transferred from these new banking accounts to one central account, from which the Lily Rose was purchased. It would be interesting if these aspects could be cleared up in banking circles. Is it not the duty of every bank official to report such circumstances immediately? I believe this is the case.

The McCall case has had a restraining effect on the escapades of other robbers on the Witwatersrand. The last major robbery took place on 6 February in Vereeniging, when R92 000 was taken. However, quick police action led to the immediate apprehension of these robbers. The money, as well as the three fire-arms and the stolen vehicle with which the robbery was committed, were recovered. It is interesting to note that when this robbery was committed a member of the security branch was inside the bank.

I would have liked to refer to many other aspects and statistics. The Police Force in Soweto and on the Witwatersrand are very successful and the crime rate has dropped during the past year. I would have liked to have referred to this, but I do not have the time now. However, I want to mention a few statistics. Apart from murder, which rose by 69,45% in Soweto during the past year, robbery dropped by 15% and rape by 9,3%. I just want to mention that cases of murder and culpable homicide can to a major extent be linked to alcohol abuse. It is interesting to note that during one weekend last year when liquor could not be delivered by the breweries in Soweto the crime rate dropped tremendously.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Roodepoort has given us a lot of statistics here this afternoon and it was very interesting to hear them. I am sorry, however, that I have to introduce a rather dampening note on his enthusiasm, but one must ask the question: “Where are Stander and Heyl?” The whole object of the exercise should have been Stander and Heyl, and not Porsches, BMWs and Kawasaki motorcycles. If we had caught Stander and Heyl when we should have, we would not have any of those statistics! I think a lot of people would then be feeling a lot better. As the famous bank advertisement says: “It makes you think, doesn’t it?”

I think we must examine this motion, and I certainly support it wholeheartedly. I ask myself: What is the hon member for Yeoville looking for here? The hon member is asking that more active steps be taken to combat crime and so to safeguard the security of the individual and of private property. I hoped that this would be one motion of which it could be said that all parties in the House debated just that point. I suppose it is the way this House works, but I am sorry that parties have seen fit to move amendments saying that they believe that the Government and the police have not been thanked for active steps they have taken. This is not, I believe, the spirit of the motion of the hon member for Yeoville. I think that the hon member for Yeoville—it is certainly true of the NRP—is very grateful indeed for any positive steps that are taken by the police. We are very supportive of the police in all their efforts. What the hon member for Yeoville is looking for, however—and here I agree with him wholeheartedly—is more active steps in order to combat crime from the Government. I think that this is a reasonable motion. I think the hon member’s request is a reasonable one. I think it is a very fair one. In the light of the circumstances in which we are living at this time, I also think it is a timeous request to make.

The hon member for Krugersdorp quoted at length from a very, very interesting brochure issued by the Human Sciences Research Council on crime in the community. This is a brochure I would commend to anybody who is interested in the subject matter of the debate here this afternoon. It highlights points that are worthy of paraphrasing. It highlights the fact that crime is undoubtedly our public enemy No. 1. It highlights the fact that every citizen of this country at some time in his life is either directly or indirectly a victim of crime. It also reminds us of the fact that the social and emotional effects on the victim of crime are more often than not out of all proportion to the seriousness of the crime. Finally, it tells us in no uncertain terms that society generally fears crime.

Because of that, I think it is fair to say, firstly, that the elderly tend to change their lifestyles traumatically because of that fear. However, all of us to a greater or lesser degree have our own style and quality of life dictated to because of that inherent fear of becoming a victim of crime. The sad fact of the matter is—and this is also touched upon in this brochure—that more and more South Africans feel that they do not enjoy the adequate police protection that they should. They also believe that the authorities possibly do not fully appreciate the dilemma they find themselves in.

Service conditions for policemen have improved tremendously of late. For that, I think, the public of South Africa is grateful. I know that certainly the SA Police must be grateful.

Sir, what should be done? That is the question I asked myself when I thought about this motion. What do we, in the words of Douglas Mitchell, “d-o, do”? I think it behoves each one of us taking part in this debate to look at the motion and to try to suggest something positive that can be done in order to assist in the taking of more active steps to combat crime. I believe there is one paramount step that should be taken. There must be a completely fresh look at police presence. The hon member for Yeoville elaborated upon this, and I agree with him. I will probably repeat certain things which he said earlier. The hon member has said it and I have said before in this House that we would like to see the policemen on the pavement, the bobby on the beat. We should like to see him back where we saw him so often when we were a lot younger. We want to see him on the streets. We would like to see him on our roads and our highways. Let me ask the entire House: When last did any one of us pass a police vehicle?

You must be asleep.

No, I am not asleep. I have very often been passed by a police vehicle but I cannot remember when last I drove past a police vehicle. When I see police vehicles on the streets, on the roads and on the highways they are all going like bats out of hell, and they are not all going to fight crime. This seems to be the habit of the police vehicle. A police vehicle today is identifiable, firstly, by its number plates and, secondly, by the speed at which it is travelling, in whichever direction it is going. [Interjections.] I am sorry, but they are not always rushing either to a fire or a crime. Very often they are rushing to go off duty. It is the habit of the SA Police to tear along our roads and highways. This is merely an observation. I am sorry if the criticism hurts. I believe what I have said is a fact. [Interjections.] Having said that, let me ask hon members just to ponder it and think about it when they drive home tonight. They should think about it when they drive along the foreshore and see how often they pass a police vehicle. [Interjections.] Sir, now we have them woken up.

Anybody who can wake these gents at four o’clock on a Friday afternoon is really doing something!

Yes. I also agree wholeheartedly with what the hon member for Yeoville has said in respect of police stations. I think we would like to see more of the blue lights that were referred to. I known that is very easy to say and very expensive and difficult to do. Perhaps we should consider the establishment of a larger number of smaller stations rather than the tendency there seems to be today to concentrate the police in an area in large stations with a larger area of control. Perhaps we should go back to the smaller suburban station. I am reminded of when ex-Minister Jimmy Kruger was Minister of Police and I appealed for a mobile police station in Umhlanga and he granted it. What a tremendous effect that had on the crime rate in that village. As a result of that there is a small police presence at Umhlanga Rocks and it has had a dramatic effect on crime in the streets of Umhlanga Rocks. The large unit is still in Durban North, which covers an enormous area. Perhaps we should consider going back to the smaller police station rather than the large complexes.

Finally, I believe there should be a closer liaison between the police and commerce and industry. I think there is a good liaison. One has only to read the Durban Chamber of Commerce Digest to see that there is a good rapport between the SA Police and Durban commerce and industry. I cannot speak for other cities in the country, but I believe this is something that should be encouraged. There should be more liaison between the police and commerce and industry.

Sir, I could talk on this subject for another half hour but unfortunately my time has run out. It gives me pleasure to support wholeheartedly the motion moved by the hon member for Yeoville.

Mr Speaker, this is one of the rare occasions when the hon member for Umhlanga did not find any thing about which to fight with the Progs. We thank the hon member for the support of the NRP. Indeed, the hon member even managed to direct mild criticism in the direction of the Government on this occasion.

As a representative of a Western Cape constituency, I should like to approach this motion from a regional perspective. It is an alarming state of affairs that statistically it would appear that greater Cape Town ranks among one of the most violent cities in the world. [Interjections.] Reliable statistics are difficult to obtain, but data gathered by the Institute of Criminology at UCT, as quoted in Weekend Argus of 12 March 1983, shows that 25% of all serious crime in the Republic is committed in the Western Cape which has only approximately 18% of the country’s total population. The hon the Minister is shaking his head, but it would be interesting to know what the position actually is.

From statistics released by the hon the Minister today in reply to questions, it is a fact that in 1983 there were 7 889 reports of assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm in the Peninsula area; there were also 740 murders, 1 327 rapes and 5 071 robberies. In other words, during 1983, on an average day in the Peninsula, there were 2 murders, 4 rapes, 14 robberies and 22 assaults with intent to do grievous bodily harm. These are figures released by the hon the Minister this morning. I know the hon the Minister is fond of making comparisons with other cities in South Africa but when comparisons are made with other cities in the Western world a very disturbing picture emerges.

Has the hon member got the figures?

I have certain figures, but perhaps the hon the Minister in his reply will be able to furnish some more figures which we will find very interesting. [Interjections.]

When the hon the Minister opened the Table View police station last year, in a rare moment of candour he was quoted as saying:

[Interjections.] He had to say that, but we do have a serious problem here. At that time it had just been reported that the incidence of rape had increased by some 18%, and serious assault by 5% over the 1982 period, One has to try to get at the truth of this situation by little bits and pieces of information here and there because the hon the Minister knows that he has been amazingly reticent about figures. Until this morning we have gone three years without official statistics being released in the House. On an earlier occasion, the Divisional CI Chief for the Western Cape, Brig Dries van der Heever, revealed that during the first six months of 1982 there was an average of 9 102 serious crimes per month here in the Western Cape.

My major concern, and it is a concern that is shared by a great many people here in the Western Cape—hon members representing Western Cape constituencies will know that what I am saying is the truth—is not only in regard to the incidence of serious crimes for which we have these statistics but also the disturbing incidence of petty crimes which seem to be on the increase. I refer to petty thieving, house-breaking, bag-snatching, drunkenness, loitering and vagrancy. Many people have indicated to me a general feeling that this type of crime is on the increase in this region and, what is of particular concern to us, is that they make the observation that a new element of anti-social aggression and an increasing brazenness seem to have developed in recent times. For example, a suburban housewife told me a story some 10 days ago about what had happened to her. While she was in her kitchen with the maid and one of her children a thief quite calmly walked into her backyard, saw her look at him, but still calmly chose one of the children’s bicycles and openly rode off on it. When she shouted at him and tried to give chase he only subjected her to foul-mouthed abusive epithets. That is an example of an amazing degree of brazenness in broad daylight.

To the extent to which these incidents are part of a pattern of increasing lawlessness in Cape Town and environs, it represents an intolerable situation. Decent, law-abiding citizens must look to the Government for protection against developments of this nature. The question must, however, be asked: What is being done? What is being done by the Government and by the hon the Minister of Law and Order? The heart of our complaint is that they do not appear to be taking adequate steps in order to deal with the problem. I am not criticizing the police when I say this. The police work under extremely difficult circumstances, and I want to place it on record that I believe they are doing their best, and that they are doing an admirable job under extremely difficult circumstances. On the whole, I am sure, their efforts are widely appreciated and respected by the public. Our criticism, however, is directed at the Government. The Government is responsible for the policy environment in which the police have to operate. I believe, for example, that most of the Peninsula police stations are understaffed, and that this has been the situation for many years. This is a complaint that must be laid at the door of the Government.

The hon the Minister wrote a letter to the Cape Town City Council in which he stated—I am quoting him in broad terms—that the situation was under control. He also claimed that things had improved dramatically; to such an extent that some police stations in the Peninsula were operating on full complement. As if this was a major achievement that only some of them were operating on full complement. What about the others that are not?

The general problem in Cape Town is greatly aggravated by the fact that Cape Town aspires to being one of the major tourist cities of the Republic. We need tourism in Cape Town as much as Johannesburg needs its goldmines. Yet we are faced with the situation in which tourists, overseas visitors to this city, have to be advised to regard the city centre as an unsafe place after nightfall. The hon the Minister and the department will be in possession of the relevant statistics in this regard. They will know that there have been many reports of muggings and of anti-social behaviour right in the central hotel district of Cape Town; in front of such prestigious hotels as the Heerengracht and the Cape Sun. I submit that that is an unacceptable state of affairs, Mr Speaker. As a resident of Cape Town I do not regard it as safe for me or my wife and family to walk about the streets of Cape Town after working hours, particularly the streets in the centre of the city.

Having visited a number of the major cities of the world and speaking from my own experience, I must say that I have not found a similar situation in those cities. I can state still that I have always felt safe walking about the well lit central business areas of overseas cities at night. On the street corners, in cities like New York, London and Paris—teeming metropolises—one sees friendly policemen on the beat. If the hon the Minister has travelled widely—which I am sure he has done—he should know that what I am saying is true. [Interjections.]

It is an undeniable fact that the mere presence on the street of a man in uniform is a deterrent to anti-social behaviour. Cape Town has no such equivalent service. Hon. members who come from other metropolitan areas in our country also know that the same applies in other South African cities. As the hon member for Yeoville has also stated, I believe this is one of the reasons why the vibrant central city life of Cape Town in the 1950s and 1960s, as I recall it, has largely disappeared. It is there no more. Instead we have a city centre which is dead at night, at the prime tourists’ time, because it is then that the city centre is regarded as most unsafe. It is under such circumstances that we have to try to promote Cape Town as a tourist attraction. It would appear to me that the Government has to tackle this matter as a question of urgency. There are long-term strategies available with which to approach the problem and there are immediate short-term tactics as well. A major long-term strategy is largely common cause and that is to upgrade the general socio-economic conditions in the lesser privileged areas of the Peninsula and its environs. The problems and the conditions that have been described arise because of an overspill effect resulting from conditions of overcrowding, joblessness, political frustration, lack of amenities and generally oppressive socio-economic conditions, in the townships surrounding the inner city. This is not new wisdom. This is wisdom that has been accepted for years. Leading citizens and experts and established organizations like the city council, Assocom and the universities have all made this observation. This has been said for years but what has been done? What has the Government been doing to combat these socio-economic conditions on a long-term basis and to improve the depressing living conditions of these people?

There is another point that I particularly wish to raise with the hon the Minister. Short-term strategies such as recruitment drives are available but one possibility that particularly interests me and that has been raised with the hon the Minister before—and I wish to make a special plea for it this afternoon—is for the establishment of—for want of better description—a civic patrol force possibly on a metropolitan basis with other municipalities participating. In this regard I want in principle to support a proposal that was put forward by the Cape Town City Council to establish civic patrol force operating as a department of the city council and similar to the traffic department but with other responsibilities. I believe it is fair to say that we in Cape Town have had positive results from the patrol force that was established on the city’s beaches. These men are uniformed officers with minor powers whose very presence on the beaches has had an effect in curbing anti-social behaviour. I believe that this idea could be greatly expanded to include similar patrol officers on the beat throughout the city centre and in some of the more densely populated suburban areas to augment the police force, to work as an adjunct to the police force and to act as a general deterrent. I do not envisage that such patrol officers need have wide powers. Powers granted to them already under certain legislation will probably be adequate. They would certainly not need to be armed. A uniform, a truncheon and a walkie-talkie is all that such a patrol officer in my opinion would need in order to act as an important deterrent and to be effective in combating anti-social behaviour. In this connection I wish to express my disappointment that the hon the Minister recently refused to consider the granting of any subsidies to the city of Cape Town in order to develop this most positive idea. In view of the problems which the hon the Minister and his department are experiencing, he should have taken this idea very seriously and given as much help as possible to the City Council to develop this idea. Instead of doing this, the hon the Minister simply claimed that his department could solve all the problems by itself with its limited and over-extended resources. I believe that his attitude has been shortsighted. I think that he took the side of the department in what the Americans call a turf battle—this is the idea that one authority tries not to share any responsibility with any other authority. I do not think that that is in the interests of the general public. I hope he will reconsider his attitude as soon as possible and I call on him to do so. In the meantime it is my opinion that the public of Cape Town is entitled to demand an improved level of protection against crime.

Mr Speaker, the debate had been conducted on a reasonably positive note until the hon member for Constantia participated in it, but from him there are always a few discordant notes and he always tries to get in a few digs at the Government. It is indeed true that South Africa is a far safer place to live in than countries such as the USA, and specifically cities such as Washington and New York. Therefore the hon member must not make such a fuss about conditions in South Africa already being unsafe, while in reality they are safer in this country than in countries elsewhere in the world.

Pursuant to what the hon member for Krugersdorp said and the example which the hon member for Constantia quoted of a bicycle which was stolen in broad daylight, I think that there one has the proof that the individual in particular and the public in general can also make their contribution when it comes to the protection of our property. In view of the circumstances we should not always look to the police to protect our persons and our property. There are methods which can be employed by the individual under such circumstances. I want to warn against relying too heavily on the police, while we on our part do not do much.

I wish to refer to the hon member for Umhlanga in passing only, specifically to what he said about the police always overtaking him from behind, while he could never succeed in overtaking a policeman from behind. To his credit I must say, however, that he is definitely a very exemplary citizen, for when we adjourn here in the evenings, I probably depart the better part of five minutes after him, but I am always the first to reach the place where we stay because he drives so slowly. [Interjections.]

South Africa is probably one of the most peaceful places in the whole of Africa. The hon member for Yeoville pointed out that crime in Africa had increased, but in the midst of that South Africa remained one of the most peaceful places, and I believe that the hon member will agree with me in this particular respect. We owe this to the proper and effective legislation that this House has passed for this country, but what is more, to the excellent way in which the SA Police implements the legislation.

We must not labour under the misapprehension, however, that continuous onslaughts, criminal and otherwise, such as those by the communists, inter alia, will not be made on us. I should like to quote the words of the late Adv John Vorster:

I hope that the hon members of the CP will also take this particular statement by the late Adv John Vorster to heart.

Nor should we labour under the misapprehension that the onslaught on the safety of the individual, the community and private property is made only by the Black communist. For years, Whites have been in the forefront when it comes to onslaughts in various spheres in South Africa.

Once again I associate myself with what the hon member for Krugersdorp said when I say that the individual in South Africa must help to ensure his own safety, as well as to safeguard his own property. There are many methods which can be adopted when we talk about the safety of the individual. Hon members of this House, too, can make a great contribution to safeguarding the individual in South Africa by simply censoring their statements and accusations before they say nonsensical things. In this respect I accuse the hon members of the PFP in particular. If the hon member for Yeoville had felt so strongly about his motion, he should perhaps have made an immediate start on orientation work among the hon members of the PFP. Let us consider just one of the nonsensical statements to which I referred. After the Pretoria bomb explosion, the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North—unfortunately he is not present at the moment—made a nonsensical and irresponsible statement that was reported as follows:

The document in which the hon member was quoted was distributed by the Pinelands PFP Youth Branch. The statement by the hon member and the distribution of such nonsense creates the impression among the offenders that they should continue to commit acts of this kind because hon members of this House, and in particular hon members of the PFP and its political organization approve of them. One comfort, however, is that there are literally thousands of South Africans, White and non-White, who are prepared to make a meaningful contribution to the safeguarding of the individual and his property. I am referring here in particular to the police reserve force, or the reservists, as they are generally known.

These police reservists make great sacrifices, in spite of the fact that they do it in their spare time, and without remuneration. Consequently it would not be inappropriate if I convey the gratitude and appreciation of this House to every police reservist, regardless of what branch of the Police Force he or she is serving in, for what they are doing for South Africa and what they mean to and are sacrificing for its people.

It is important that we look at the statistics of the police reserve force. The strength of the police reserve force is at present as follows: Active White men 10 818, compared with 7 720 on 30 June 1982, while there are 5 468 inactive White men, compared with 6 627 on 30 June 1982. Consequently there are at present fewer of these members inactive than there were just over a year ago. As far as women are concerned, there are at present 773 active women members of the reserve force, while there were only 250 on 30 June 1982. As far as the juniors are concerned, there were only 375 on 30 June 1982, while there are at present already 1 273 members. As far as non-White are concerned, I shall furnish the number of men and women combined because in this group there are only 12 women who are members of the reserve force. As far as Blacks are concerned, there are at present 1 373 active members, and only 161 inactive members. As far as Coloureds are concerned, there are 908 active members and only 33 inactive members. There are 635 active Asian members, and only 20 inactive members.

In addition, one should take note of the rank structure of officers in the reserve force. At present it is as follows: Whereas the reserve force had no full colonel on 30 June 1982, there are now two full colonels, both of whom are Whites. As far as lieutenant colonels are concerned, there were six in 1982, and at present there are still six. As far as majors are concerned, there are at present 32, while there were 19 on 30 June 1982. As far as captains are concerned, there are at present 78, while there were only 56 in 1982. At present, too, there are two Black captains in the reserve force. As far as lieutenants are concerned, there are at present 130 Whites, while there were 97 in 1982. There are two Black, two Coloured and two Asian lieutenants.

As far as White as well as non-White reservists are concerned, they collectively rendered approximately 1 455 000 hours of service during 1982. In total approximately 440 police stations were manned by reservists over weekends. In this way permanent members were let off to render other active services. During 1983 38 training camps for reservists were offered throughout the Republic, which were attended by approximately 3 000 reservists. As far as courses are concerned, two courses for junior reservists were offered, which were attended by 144 juniors. For officers one candidate officer’s course lasting 14 days was offered to 35 warrant officers. As far as the counter-insurgency unit is concerned, 171 reservists attended intensive courses on the combating of urban terror and counter-insurgency. In a period of just over a year, 15 reservists did border duty.

In other branches of the Force reservists are serving as follows: At Sanab 37 members are serving; in the detective branch, 127 members; in the vehicle branch, 25 members; in the murder and robbery squad, 12 members, and in the reaction unit, 154 members.

During 1983 two passing out parades were held in the Witwatersrand Division, which were attended by 133 male and 42 female reservists. Many reservists, including approximately 200 Wachthuis radio reserve members, made a major contribution to road safety with their private vehicles during 1983. Similar operations are also being planned on a large scale for 1984. Road safety is being inculcated in the public, and assistance is also being rendered by them at the scenes of accidents. The reservists also man roadblocks, something which is extremely necessary for the safety of the individual and private property. I think that the hon member for Yeoville may possibly agree with this statement of mine, but the hon members for Pietermaritzburg North and Durban Central will certainly not. It became apparent during the discussion of earlier legislation in this House that road-blocks were anathema to them.

In conclusion, I want to make and appeal to all town and city councils in the Republic that are in any way able to afford it, to follow the example of the Johannesburg City Council. In Houghton they made a house available to the reservists, at which they undergo training and at which passing out parades have even been held. With this gesture the Johannesburg City Council has demonstrated that it is aware of the extremely important task which the reservists are performing. In general it is clear that the South African Police are in fact taking active steps to combat crime, thus ensuring the safety of all the inhabitants of the Republic.

Consequently I want to support the amendment to the motion, as moved by the hon member for Krugersdorp.

Mr Speaker, before the hon member for Losberg spoke, I had that funny feeling that there was a shortcoming in this debate. It was as if this was not the usual debate on Police matters. I know now what the problem was. Until he started speaking, no one had anything to say about communism or the attitude of the PFP towards the Police and the idea that the PFP was against the Police. That had not been raised yet, but now, as in an ordinary debate on Police matters, he has fortunately raised that aspect as well. So now we have the usual debate on Police matters.

I should like to refer again to a point raised by the hon member for Krugersdorp.

†It is a point which he made when he referred to the investigation of the Human Sciences Research Council into crime. He mentioned that according to that finding 10% of Whites had indicated that their habits and lifestyles had changed as a result of fear of crime. I would like to turn to one particular category of people of our society whose lifestyle have been affected to a far greater extent by the rising crime rate or by the fear of crime. That is the category of the elderly people and the pensioners. The hon member for Yeoville referred to it briefly, and the hon member for Germinston District also mentioned that the elderly people fear the central areas of our cities.

Not only do the elderly present an easier target for the criminals, but the effects of a robbery theft or a bag-snatch is far more drastic on those people than what it would be on the ordinary citizen. A robbery could, for example, and very often does, force the elderly into old-age homes and institutions. An assault can, for example, result in suffering and bad health for a few years, which may be the last of their lives. It is because the elderly in cities and towns fear the results of crime to a much greater extent now than 10 or 15 years ago that they are taking more and more precautions to safeguard themselves against the consequences of crime. One development, a development that has certainly occurred in Durban, is that more and more the elderly who could basically continue living in their flats or their little homes, because of the fear of crime, because of the increase in crime as they see it, decide rather to move into an old-age home or an old-age institution because they feel that there it will be safer and they will not have to take precautions in their own homes, precautions they cannot afford anyway. This development of a growing number of people applying for accommodation in old-age homes and old-age institutions not because they are necessarily deserving candidates, for example because of poverty, but because they are motivated by the fear of living alone within ordinary society in the areas where they used to live, is occurring more and more. People who are in charge of old-age homes and old-age institutions have told me that the elderly are basically far better off, provided they are in good health, if they can continue to live in the community in the areas where they used to live before coming to an old-age home. To many people who live there, the old-age home affects their pride and reduces their independence. In any event, the pressure on old-age homes is very great. There are just not enough funds and manpower available to deal with the growing pressure. This is, to come back to the motion, the result of a perception among specifically the elderly that the crime rate is increasing and that there is a growing danger to them in the city areas.

What can be done about this? I am not going to repeat some of the suggestions that have been made by my hon colleagues in the House. The hon member for Yeoville mentioned the greater visibility and presence of police, as did the hon member for Constantia. I also agree with the points made by the hon member for Umhlanga. I believe there are ways and means of impressing upon the elderly who live in the city areas that the police can control the situation and that there is no need for them to move out merely because of their fear of crime.

The hon member for Yeoville, to deal with another aspect, specifically emphasized that his motion is worded in the way it is worded to indicate that not only the hon the Minister of Law and Order should be responsible for crime prevention and the security of the individual. A far wider area of responsibility is dealt with. In this regard I want to come again to Durban and the outlying areas there. Unlike virtually any other city, Durban is surrounded by areas which fall into kwaZulu where hundreds of thousands of people live crammed together with thousands of squatters and unemployed people who try to make a living in the Greater Durban area. Unless, as the hon member for Yeoville indicated as well, the socio-economic aspects are tackled, there is no possibility of the individual policeman being able to cope with the problems which socio-economic underdevelopment will create.

I refer, for example, to the township of Clermont, which is one of the very few areas in South Africa where Blacks have freehold title. Many people in the Durban area ask themselves why, as far as improvements in the way of electrification etc are concerned, all the attention is being given to Soweto when there are other areas very close to metropolitan areas which appear to be neglected. Clermont is one of those areas where the type of attention to and investment in the infrastructure which Soweto is enjoying, is just not seen. Again, this is not something the hon the Minister of Law and Order can deal with. It is the responsibility of the Government to deal with that aspect. The Clermont township lies right next to New Germany, right next to an industrial area, an area where people in the first instance seek employment. Because of the drought and because of the squatting problem in the outlying Durban areas there are hundreds of thousands of people who walk the streets of New Germany in search of employment during any one year. It does not appear that there in any policy on the Government’s part to improve the living conditions in Clermont. It does not appear that there is any specific programme that it has tried to implement with the cooperation of industrialists, for example, to create sporting and recreational facilities for the population of Clermont. Unless the situation in the Clermont area, for example, is tackled on that basis—a police station could be opened in New Germany or somewhere else—it will be very difficult to deal with the petty crime situation which inevitably results from largescale unemployment and a large population without proper housing and jobs. That is an aspect which the Government as a whole ought to tackle as a priority, more specifically in the Durban area. One gets the impression that because the outlying areas fall into kwaZulu the Government can put that aside and concentrate entirely on Soweto.

During the discussion of his Vote in 1982, the hon the Minister indicated that the police force was trying to improve communication between the individual and the police force in order to prepare the individual better for possible crime, in order to persuade him to take safety measures. He suggested for example, that it was the intention of the police almost to visit door-to-door and to make use of the media to instil into the public a greater degree of awareness of the crimes that are taking place in the cities. Again, there has been an improvement in the media. Tips are given on television as to how one can prevent petty crime from affecting one’s own situation. However, when it comes to the ordinary individual in the city centre, where normally the elderly live, there is certainly no suggestion that those people, who perhaps do not own a television set, have in any way been reached by the police or the media to explain to them how they can live a more secure life without being the victims of crime.

The hon member for Yeoville has made a number of suggestions as to how crime can be combated. I agree with those and I support his motion in the hope that there will be action in that area. I suggest that the very fact that the hon the Minister intends to increase the police force to a figure of about 65 000 indicates that he is aware that a greater presence of the police in the streets of our cities is necessary. If that is going to be done in the future it could to some extent assist with the immediate problem. I support the motion of the hon member for Yeoville.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all hon members who have taken part in the discussion. It has been a fruitful discussion. I must say that to me it was an exceptional experience, after all these years, to have conducted a debate on the police in such a peaceful atmosphere, whether by way of a motion or in the course of the discussion of the Vote or legislation. It seems to me that the referendum and the new constitutional dispensation and the new future we are entering has instilled a new attitude in all of us, and I must say, I find this very pleasant and something to be grateful for. In the same spirit I should like to speak to the hon member for Yeoville and other hon members today. It is a pity that the hon Chief Whip of the PFP is not in the House at present, because I should have liked to convey my goodwill to him as well. It seems to me as if he could not quite believe what was going on here today and consequently went home. However, this is how one likes to discuss police matters, and a situation which affects the community to the extent that crime affects all of us. For that reason I wish to convey my special thanks to all the hon members who took part in the debate. Even the hon member for Umhlanga astonished me today, but I really do not know where he saw the police tearing around so. However, I shall try to reply to him in that regard.

†I will reply fully to most of the points raised by the hon member for Yeoville, but I should like to refer briefly to the following points. The hon member asked whether it was necessary for such large numbers of police to be doing duty on the borders of our country and whether we could not have a discussion with the hon the Minister of Defence about police involvement in border duty. I should like to clear up this matter. The police on border duty are doing police work. They are not doing military work in that sense. For example, our borders are being patrolled from more or less the middle of the Kalahari, to the Indian Ocean and along most of the Lesotho border. We also have approximately 27 border bases. Those policemen patrol our borders but they also do normal police duties in those areas. They investigate stock theft and any matter that may be reported to them, but they also patrol the particular area to locate any terrorist infiltration that might have taken place. They are, however, performing purely police border duties.

In different sections of the operational area we have quite a number of bases, I think about nine or ten of them, as decided upon by the military commander and the responsible senior police officer. The police at these bases are principally there for police duties in that particular area, and they do policing there. Of course, they are armed and they are properly trained to fight any terrorist or terrorist group that they may encounter. But basically they are there to do police duties in those areas, and they are there at the request of the hon the Minister of Defence to do these duties because our men are trained in this respect while the military personnel are not. It was felt therefore that the police were needed in those areas to perform these duties. That is the basic reason for those bases in the operational areas stretching across Owambo. We also have one or two of these bases in Kavango and we have only one base in Caprivi.

Furthermore, we have the Koevoet unit which started out with a small number of Security Police officers. This unit was formed at the request of the Defence Force and their duty is to act as the eyes and ears of and to collect information for the military. The Koevoet unit eventually grew to its present strength of approximately 1 000 men. Approximately 750 to 800 of these are men from the local population who are basically trained for two or three months and then posted to the Koevoet unit, while some of them are posted to the kraals of headmen to do security duties. They are under the command of a senior SA Police officer, and in all there are about 200 South African policemen involved in Koevoet. The rest of the Koevoet unit are members of the South West African Police. They are paid by the South West African Administration while the South African policemen are paid on our account. But the unit as such is the responsibility of the Minister of Law and Order in South Africa. This unit basically started off as our eyes and ears but they have developed into a strong military machine. That is true.

*In the normal course they are also basically concerned with police work in that area. Therefore they are policemen who are doing police work but are also doing patrol work.

†The number of men involved in border duties is very seldom more than 900 to 1 000 in total. That means less than one per police station in the Republic. I can assure the hon member for Yeoville that the question of numbers in this respect is not of a particular concern. It is also not disturbing the normal administration of the Police Force.

The hon member also referred to the number of police stations that were closed years ago in the Johannesburg urban area. I quite agree with the hon member. I never agreed with the decision in those days. However, I was not involved then in the decision-making process but I never agreed with the decision as such. I never agreed with so many police stations being closed down at that stage. If I could have my way I should personally like to see a few more smaller police stations scattered throughout the Johannesburg urban area; either the residential areas or close to the central city area. We are working in that direction but it is not so easy to accomplish that, particularly with money and facilities not being so readily available.

The hon member for Yeoville also referred to the question of better co-operation between the police and the media. In this respect I should like to assure the hon member that there is very close co-operation between the media as represented by the NPU and the SA Police Force. There is an agreement between the Commissioner of Police and the NPU, an agreement which works quite nicely at present. There is also a particular committee which meets regularly on a three-monthly basis. What is more, I believe, is that they only met yesterday again in Pretoria. They meet in order to discuss matters of common concern between the SA Police Force and the news media.

*Then, too, there is the Directorate of Public Relations, which, as hon members are aware, was established a few years ago. The Directorate does outstanding work. In addition, more than two years ago I appointed to my own staff a very senior press liaison officer. He is a senior pressman in the sense that at an earlier stage he himself was assistant editor for 13 years of one of the major English-language newspapers in our country. He is a very experienced man, and I appointed him to my personal staff. Therefore there is a staff member in the Ministry. There is a Directorate of Public Relations. There is also the close co-operation between the Police Force and the NPU, which yields very good results.

†I shall refer again later to the hon member for Yeoville’s suggestion in connection with a select committee. I do not quite agree with him on that point but I shall come back to that issue later.

*I shall also react in some detail to the representations made by other hon members who took part in this discussion. I shall reply to the suggestions they made. To begin with, however, I just want to say to the hon member for Constantia that he must not read a single publication by the University of Cape Town and then make general comparisons by contending that the crime situation in the Cape Peninsula is worse than in the majority of urban areas in the world. Of course, I knew that the hon member has not done his homework. He did not have the necessary data. Nor did he ascertain what the position was in other cities. He cannot tell us what the position is there. The hon member must not do this, because every time he does this he will come a cropper. When the hon member tells us it is a serious situation, there is probably not one of us who would dispute that. If the hon member were to support us in the efforts we should like to make to temper the crime situation in the Peninsula and counteract it more forcefully and effectively, then of course he would win friends. However, the hon member must not come and tell us that this area compares so terribly badly with areas elsewhere in the world, whereas statistics are available which enable a comparison to be drawn between the Peninsula and other urban areas in South Africa and abroad, statistics that indicate that our crime situation in South Africa, notwithstanding the fact that crime is always a serious matter, by no means compares so terribly badly with the situation in all other parts of the world.

†Allow me, Mr Speaker, to refer the hon member in this regard to two short paragraphs from a very interesting letter I received some days ago from the Cape Town Chamber of Commerce. I have not even had the opportunity yet of replying to this letter. However, I will do so of course in the next day or two. On this very important topic mentioned by the hon member for Constantia the Chamber of Commerce writes to me inter alia as follows:

Then they make a few suggestions of which we can take note in the Police Force and they conclude by saying:

*That is the essence of the problem in the Cape Peninsula. The socio-economic circumstances are the primary issue. We are going to contribute towards the essence of the problem but we are too often identified as one of the primary factors in the handling of the problem, whereas we can make a contribution, but we cannot necessarily play the primary role. Before I forget, I should also like to quote something admirable to hon members in order to have it placed on record in Hansard. I do so with reference to the discussion conducted by hon members about the relationship between the public and the police and the discussion we are engaged in here today, viz what more active steps can be taken—this is the crux of the motion of the hon member for Yeoville—to combat crime in South Africa. Listen to what the editor of the Sowetan has to say. I should like to quote this because it comes from Soweto, an area that is so sensitive with regard to crime and also with regard to all aspects of the enforcement of law. I quote from an edition of the Sowetan from about 18 months back, in which the editor has the following to say:

I must say that I do not always like all the terms used to describe us, but in any event it is well-meant. He goes on to say:

In this case the police:

He concludes by saying:

This is about men who devise new ways to combat crime. It refers to men of the Murder and Robbery Squad of the detective division in Soweto, who, through their enterprising spirit and hard work seven days of the week and 24 hours out of every 24, have forced down the crime rate in Soweto. This has been done by the community in co-operation with the police and with the aid of other law-enforcement bodies in Soweto. I have the details here to show hon members.

While we are discussing co-operation between the public and the police, I should also like to convey my sincere thanks on this occasion to the MPC for the hon member for Yeoville, who is the mayor of Johannesburg. A few weeks ago he took the trouble to pay a visit to several police stations in Johannesburg in his capacity as mayor of Johannesburg. As far as I know this is the first time it has happened that the mayor has taken the trouble to pay official visits to four or five police stations in his city. On the evening he did this, members of the Police Reserve of Johannesburg had taken over and were manning those stations. They were providing those services there on a 24-hour basis. The mayor went to thank those police who were serving within his area of jurisdiction for the services they rendered and was also so friendly as to say to them that he would even mention it to his council. That is the kind of example that public figures can take cognizance of and that we shall all be grateful for if it could be done in the various areas. I therefore convey my thanks to the mayor of Johannesburg, Mr Gadd, for having this.

Yeoville is a good place.

I was not speaking about the hon member for Yeoville now; I was speaking about the member of the Provincial Council for Yeoville.

The motion of the hon member for Yeoville refers to what more active steps can be done, but I should like to mention briefly a few active steps that are being taken, besides normal policing services. Reference has been made to the contribution of the media in conjunction with the police. The highly successful TV programme Police File was mentioned. A crime programme is broadcast daily, the style of which largely corresponds with that of Police File, and which is of considerable assistance to the police.

Reference was made by the hon member for Yeoville and other hon members to pamphlets distributed by the police. We distribute pamphlets in hotels in the urban areas to warn tourists to be on their guard against various things, to be careful about this and about that. These pamphlets have contributed very significantly towards allowing tourists in the central parts of our cities to move about more safely and peacefully, because now they have the necessary information as to what to do. We deliver these pamphlets to old-age homes and also to private homes occupied by elderly people.

We publish articles in local newspapers to make our people more crime-conscious. We give information talks at schools, for agricultural societies, for women’s associations—we shall do so in Houghton as well, if the hon member for Houghton asks us to do so—for financial institutions and for all professional groups of that nature. The information is provided by experienced senior officers and is very effective in making our people aware of crime, thus enabling them, too, to take action to prevent it.

An hon member mentioned films. We have about 20 films on crime prevention. Those films are so popular, and there is such a tremendous demand for them, that it sometimes takes a few weeks to get them to anyone who approaches us with a request to show the film.

Months, sometimes.

Yes, sometimes it takes months. That is how great the demand is.

We have had excellent co-operation from the private sector with regard to the printing of posters, that are being distributed by the thousand in urban areas. These posters warn people about crime. The same applies to the printing of pamphlets about the combating of crime and crime consciousness. Thus far we have had more than 2 million of these pamhlets printed and they are at present being distributed throughout South Africa.

These are all additional things being done by the Police to make our people more crime-conscious. There is something else, too, that I wish to identify. We live in modern times and we are keeping abreast of the times and moving into the future. The same applies to the SA Police. For example, we are making far greater use of the computer than in the past. The computer is very important to us and we use it on premises and in vehicles, in classifying fingerprints, in identifying crime at road-blocks and so on. I must make haste, because my time is running out. We have already installed 166 screens country-wide. At present we are installing 18 and we have 45 on order. Provision has already been made for the installation of screens at all border posts, six of which are already fully equipped. We hope that the balance will become fully equipped in the course of this year and in 1985. For example, in the case of stolen vehicles, the use of the computer enables us to maintain a success rate of 74,38% solved cases. It is also very useful in the solving of cases where firearms have been stolen, and in the search for missing persons. We deal with approximately 1 400 inquiries of this nature a month and our success rate in this field is 78%. These are new steps we are taking to combat crime.

I can also refer to certain other steps taken over the past few years. In earlier times there was a murder and robbery squad in Johannesburg and one in Cape Town, but at the moment there are already nine murder and robbery squads. Murder and robbery do not only operate in the major urban areas; they also operate out of the major urban areas in the rural areas. If there is one division of the Police that we can really take our hats off to, it is the murder and robbery squads that work such long hours and achieve such exceptional results against absolutely ruthless criminals.

At present we have 22 cattle theft units. Through our contribution and that of the public, we have succeeded, in this extremely difficult field, in reducing cattle theft by 4% over the past year. Anyone who knows South Africa will agree that it is an exceptional achievement to combat cattle theft, in our geographic circumstances, to such an extent as to reduce its incidence.

As a result of tribal fights, particularly in Natal, where increasing use is being made of weapons, a special firearm unit was established in Natal a few years ago. They are rendering an outstanding service and recovering large numbers of stolen firearms, and home-made firearms are also seized. I wish hon members could see some of the homemade weapons that are used there.

As far as vehicle theft is concerned, we have already established 20 special vehicle theft units throughout the country. With the help of certain aids they have succeeded in achieving a solution rate of more than 74%.

In our metropolitan areas there are also special crime prevention units and units used for clearing-up operations, and I can give the hon member for Yeoville data in that regard as well. Over the past year brilliant successes have been achieved in this sphere.

Then, too, there is the question of roadblocks. This is not a new idea, but is being used as an additional method for the combating of crime. The following manpower was utilized for road-blocks over the past year: Members of the SA Police—80 197; reservists—12 036; members of the SA Defence Force—25 747; SA Railway Police—1 200; traffic police—3 492, and in the process, 591 878 vehicles were inspected and 8 228 road-blocks were manned throughout South Africa.

This gives one some idea of the additional steps being taken to combat crime.

As far as staff is concerned, I should like to furnish a few facts. I am very pleased to be able to say that in the SA Police today we have a total of only 1 464 vacancies. The largest number of vacancies are in Black and Coloured ranks. Utilizing the present intake which is undergoing training at present and the intake that will be accepted in July this year, it is very probable that by the end of the year we shall be able to report to this House that there are very few vacancies in the SA Police.

An hon member spoke about shortages in the Western Province. In the Western Province Division there is a shortage of only 176 policemen, about two per police station. In the Port Natal Division there is a surplus of 23 members over and above our allocated strength. Unfortunately the biggest shortage is to be found on the Witwatersrand, but I am giving attention to that. I refer now to the Witwatersrand Division and not the Witwatersrand as a whole. In the Witwatersrand Division alone—I really regret to say this today—we are experiencing the biggest shortage. However, I am going to give personal attention to this matter and, together with the Commissioner, will attempt to eliminate this shortage. We cannot have one division in which there is such a shortage.

I have already announced—it is not yet a Government decision because there are many things that play a role—that we envisage extending the Police Force to 68 000 members. We are carrying out the financial planning in this regard. As soon as I have clarity on this matter, I shall approach the Government again with a view to obtaining the permission and co-operation of the Government in order to put this into effect. I am convinced that I shall obtain the co-operation of the Government and that is why I have already announced this in public. However, this involves in-depth financial planning. Ten to 15 years may be too short or too long a period. What is important is that one must take into account one’s available manpower and available finance. That is not so readily available.

There is another matter I wish to refer to. It is a great pity that time is so short at this point. To obtain these numbers and to be able to report to hon members today that we have a little over 1 000 vacancies throughout the country took a great deal of hard work, extending over a number of years. One important factor, however, is that nowadays the SAP is as well-paid as we could hope for. There are branches of the SAP that, without any doubt or fear of contradiction, are as well remunerated as any branch of the public sector, if not better in certain respects. I want to give hon members a few examples. The average improvement in the salary of a White member of the Force over the past five years has been approximately 170%. That of Black and Coloured members has been far more than 200%. We have an excellent salary structure, outstanding benefits; some of the best one can get in the public sector. I can give hon members the assurance that there is not a single member of the Force in any of the four race groups who is not grateful for the dispensation he enjoys today. This is true in all respects. Salaries, pension benefits, medical funds, housing, and the trouble taken in the construction of buildings—and that is not always so easy—are among these aspects. Personal remuneration is among the best in the public sector and that is why I express my personal thanks today, as part of the amendment to the motion, for the fact that we have been able to come so far in making these benefits available to members of the Force.

My time has almost expired, which I greatly regret, because there are so many things I should have liked to reply to that were raised by the hon members for Yeoville, Umhlanga and other hon members on this side of the House. I want to thank everyone for a very positive and pleasant discussion. The debate will probably be continued later this year during the Police Vote.

Mr Speaker, I would first of all like to thank the hon members who participated in this debate. I want particularly to thank the members on my side for Constantia and Durban Central. I would also like to thank the hon members of the National Party, Conservative Party and New Republic Party.

I think the hon member for Umhlanga put his finger on it when he said there was actually no necessity to move any amendments because, when one listened to the debate, one realized there was no disagreement with the motion. There was some kind of fear that if there was a vote, other hon members would have to vote with the PFP and that would be like the end of the world. That is really quite unnecessary. Although the hon the Minister could not resist bringing a little politics into the debate at the beginning, he resisted the temptation to continue doing so and came back to the subject.

There are a couple of things that need to be said in reply. Firstly, it is true that there have been very substantial improvements in the conditions of service of the police. There is no doubt about that. There is still a degree of secrecy about it of which we do not approve but there is no doubt that there has been a very substantial improvement. The hon the Minister will agree that to some extent that has no doubt been due not merely to his desire to have the improvement but to the anxiety of members of the Opposition to see to it that policemen are better remunerated and are in a better position to do their job. I am very happy that he has been able to say that the conditions of service have improved because he will remember that there has been considerable agitation about it in the past and yet this debate has gone by without that same kind of complaint. It shows that when one does protest and does something, things do improve.

However, while it is satisfactory to hear about various things that have been done and that have improved, there are statistics relating to crime—unfortunately I do not have time to quote them all—which show increases. We, as well as the hon the Minister, are concerned about this because we cannot have escalating crime. The comparison the hon the Minister wants to draw between ourselves and Chicago in the USA and such places is not really a desirable comparison because, as he quotes himself, in reality there are socio-economic conditions in South Africa which are to a large extent responsible for crime and, if we do not remedy those socio-economic conditions, not only will there be an escalation of crime but there will also be serious political problems and serious problems of stability. The crime situation in South Africa is therefore far more serious than that anywhere else. I think we have to look at that, not because of statistics, but because of the implications for stability in a society undergoing change. That is why it is so important that crime should be dealt with in our community.

I want to come to another point. There is something that worries me about the media we spoke about. I think this concern of mine will be shared by other hon members in the House. It relates to the protrayal of violence, the portrayal of people who use firearms, the portrayal of the abnormal as being the normal, particularly on television, in films and on video tapes. If the abnormal is portrayed long enough, people will think it is the normal. This is the tragedy of our society. I am not saying that one does not need the co-operation of the media, but I think one has to talk to the people who portray these things to the public in this light to see that they exercise some restraint in respect of this kind of activity.

I am pleased that the hon the Minister referred to my MPC’s visit to the reservists because I had overlooked the whole question of the reservists in my introductory speech. I think it is necessary that we not only talk about visiting them, but that we in fact thank them for what they do to make a concrete contribution towards the maintenance of law and order in South Africa. There are many people who are prepared to give up their spare time and make themselves available for this duty, although unfortunately there are not enough such people. I think we should have more suburban police stations. I can speak of the one in Yeoville to which we have referred. People have already said: “We have got a police station here; we would like to come and help at this police station”. I am sure that other hon members have had the same experience. This whole concept of the suburban police station, the small police station, is one which will help substantially to attract the public to help in the fight against crime. That, to my mind, is something we need to deal with from the point of view of the public.

Perhaps one of the things that disturbs one most about the whole subject of crime—and it is not unique to South Africa, but it exists everywhere in the world—is that when a crime is being committed, very few people are prepared to go and get involved and help their neighbours. They say it is the other man’s problem. One sees a bag being snatched in the street, but one does not go and assist. One hears stories of people being attacked. Others hear their cries and their screams, but they close their windows instead of doing something about it.

Business interrupted in terms of Standing Order No 34 and motion and amendments lapsed.