reported that the Standing Committee on Vote No 6—“Finance”, and Vote No 7— “Audit”, had agreed to the Votes.

Mr Chairman, in the first place I should like to express the confidence that we shall have a pleasant discussion of this Vote and, moreover, that we shall speak frankly to one another.

When one considers health services in South Africa, one realizes that this country occupies a unique position in the world; unique because on the one hand South Africa, like almost the whole of the rest of Africa, is a Third World country, but at the same time has one of the most highly developed health services in the world, with perhaps among the most well-known medical practitioners who have done some of the most important research and achieved some of the greatest breakthroughs in the world. What is so exceptional is the fact that some years ago South Africa was the first country in the world in which a heart transplant was performed. This occurred under the leadership of one particular man who was at the head of a team that deserves only congratulations. Some of the people who were members of the team at the time are today sitting in this House. That is why I say that this was an exceptional achievement.

However on the other hand, of course, we in South Africa are saddled with a health problem. One of the biggest problems in our country in this field is, of course, the incidence of cholera. Cholera is a disease condition which, in the nature of the matter, is caused by under-development and poor hygienic conditions. There is no getting away from that. Hon members will therefore understand that to operate health services efficiently, particularly in this connection— to make a success of them—is a very demanding task. It is very demanding, in the sense that the cost of health services in South Africa is tremendously high. This amount will continue to increase in future.

On a previous occasion I announced that I wanted to appoint a commission of inquiry into pensions and social services in South Africa, a commission that will also investigate the field of health services. On that occasion I said that projections indicated that the expenditure of this department—including both pensions and health services—could amount to approximately R10 000 million per annum by the end of the century. One cannot help asking whether South Africa will be able to afford that. It is for that very reason that the Department of Health and Welfare has submitted certain plans to the Government. Those plans have been accepted and were made known some years ago. However, it would not be inappropriate to emphasize them again here today.

In the nature of the matter, this will mean that health services must be taken to the population. Therefore we shall have to make an effort to organize our health services in such a way that they are largely of a preventative nature. Therefore it will be necessary to attempt to keep people out of our modern and refined hospitals. Accordingly we shall have to introduce a special health service. In the first place, we shall have to have a sufficient number of medical practitioners and nurses, and pharmacists, too, will have to play a prominent role in this special health service; a bigger role than at present.

These things will have to be done for the simple reason—as I have said before—that we cannot waste the highly skilled labour in South Africa, as is being done today in certain instances. Here I have in mind, for example, the fact that a man is trained intensively for five years, only to be employed to stand behind a counter, counting out pills. That is the biggest waste of labour imaginable. Therefore we have re-examined the situation and come up with a recommendation that health service centres be established throughout the country. In this regard we have also requested the co-operation of the provinces and of local authorities. Therefore several of these health centres are already in the process of construction. This process has perhaps progressed the furthest in the Cape, where the so-called day hospitals, as they are called, have existed for a long time. Indeed, there is already a whole series of day hospitals in the Cape Peninsula.

When we visit a day hospital we realize that the patients receiving assistance and treatment there are assisted in a unique fashion and more than 80% of those patients are only seen and treated by a nurse. Moreover, the patients are quite happy with the treatment they receive, because apart from anything else, the young ladies are very friendly. Naturally, there is a doctor at hand to furnish assistance where necessary. The patients who visit day hospitals are, however, kept away from the ordinary hospitals. Of course it is not true that those people are not sick, but it is true that many people go to hospital for treatment when it is not necessary to do so. Efforts are already being made to expedite this process. If I point out that more than 80% of the people who visit those day hosptials or community health centres are only treated by nurses, hon members will realize the extent of the service we can provide with the aid of more than 60 000 registered nurses in South Africa. That situation is developing well. I say that it has made most progress in the Cape, but that it is also progressing in the other provinces. Such health services are being established in Soweto with the assistance of nurses, and outstanding services are being provided there. Indeed, the nursing profession is in the forefront in this regard because they have already decided to introduce an integrated course of four years so that they, too, may be able to provide this community service. It will, of course, be necessary for some of those patients to be referred to a doctor for treatment. For this purpose there will be a regional hospital. The standards of the regional hospitals can vary depending on the region where they are established. Eventually some patients will be referred to specialist hospitals—this is also the case at present— and, if there is a medical faculty nearby, to an academic hospital. Therefore we have already decided to appoint a committee of inquiry consisting of prominent medical men and academics in South Africa to investigate the whole matter and make recommendations before October as to where, if necessary, additional academic hospitals and medical faculties ought to be made available.

I was faced by the problem that there was not a single university in this country which had not been promised a medical faculty by one of my predecessors. These medical faculties are so enormously expensive that South Africa will in future only be able to afford the essential ones. Therefore it is necessary that we should now finalize our planning as regards where our future medical faculties are to be provided in South Africa. Once we have ascertained that, then all the other hospitals will have to be of a lower standard. When I speak of lower standards, I refer to facilities. This is not to say that the services there will be inferior, but we shall simply have to accept that it is impossible for all medical operations and services to be available at every hospital. Therefore we shall have to concentrate on certain places and, once we have finally determined where they are, the rest will provide the best medical services planned for those particular regions.

It is striking to note that not far from the academic hospitals—and there are a couple of them in the Cape Peninsula—private hospitals are being built—one was built very recently—the operating costs of which are minimal in comparison with the other major hospitals. Outstanding services are provided there. We in the department are of the opinion that the private hospitals do have a place in the providion of health services in South Africa and that they provide those services efficiently. So much for the personal services.

Other services provided by the Department of Health are community services. Community services can briefly be summarized as follows. Several hospitals are psychiatric hospitals in a sphere which is the responsibility of the State. There are cases in this sphere which can only be dealt with by the State and in no other way. Therefore there must be the necessary hospitals run by the State. Where more such hospitals are required they must and will be built and patients will have to go to such psychiatric hospitals to be treated. It remains the task of the State to accept responsibility for those hospitals.

Other community services are in respect of infectious diseases. I could elaborate at length on infectious diseases but I wish to say that the outstanding infectious disease today is still tuberculosis. We are still very concerned about tuberculosis, and it seems as if the incidence of tuberculosis is not diminishing. However, one has to view this matter in perspective. If tuberculosis increases it must also be recognized that the determining, the methods of indentifying tuberculosis today, are so much better. We realize that this is not a satisfactory state of affairs, but the fact of the situation is that that severe mutilation, particularly in the lungs of tuberculosis patients, is no longer seen today. The majority of the hospitals in which these major lung operations are carried out on tuberculosis patients have been closed, and today there are only two of them left. The only ones left are the George V hospital in Durban and one other. That disease in its most severe form no longer occurs.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that there is still a major problem as far as tuberculosis is concerned. I believe that this is so because it is now easier to trace the disease. Let me quote an example in this regard. No one knows how much tuberculosis there is in Crossroads. It is impossible for anyone to ascertain that. All we can say is that we suspect that there is a great deal. The moment one gives a patient a house, however, one pins him down as far as his place of residence is concerned and one knows where he is. Then one can examine him and ascertain that he has tuberculosis and one can treat him. It may seem as if there is a tremendous increase. It is difficult to prove these aspects, but we can consider them.

As regards psychiatry and tuberculosis, too, the private sector is playing a tremendous role today. We have already succeeded in arranging matters so that the private sector is of considerable assistance to us with regard to psychiatry. As regards psychiatric patients who are not dangerous and do not require serious treatment, as well as tuberculosis patients, we have already reached the position in which the private sector is able to provide us with 14 000 beds. Some of these hospitals are large hospitals. Some of the very biggest hospitals in the country are these that are being extremely well run for us by the private sector. I want to admit frankly—there are reasons why this is so— that they are able to do it more cheaply than we are. This can be done and it is being done.

Another general task is medical care. Here, for example, there are district surgeon services and paediatric care. Then there are the services provided by local authorities that are subsidized, eg nursing services, health inspectors, prenatal and postnatal care, health services for pre-school children, prevention of nutritional deficiencies, health instruction, etcetera. For these services the department votes more than R20 million. Another health service which has to be promoted by way of control is health protection. This includes pollution control, particularly air pollution. Pollution control is a matter that is given the department’s particular attention. Only consider how the fumes emanating from the refinery at Milnerton make the air unpleasant at Acacia Park and further southwards when a northwest wind is blowing. These are things that have to be controlled. At the power stations of the Eastern Transvaal pollution is constantly being monitored. Nowhere else in the world does one find such a large concentration of thermal power stations as in the Eastern Transvaal. Therefore it is essential that air pollution be properly monitored there. In addition there is control of food from a health point of view. We all know about the poison aflatoxin which has been so widely discussed and written about. On top of that, from 1 April this year the Medical Bureau for Occupational Diseases also fall under the department. It seems to me that my colleague in charge of mines does not yet realize that this job now falls under me, because as yet no one has turned up.

All this forms part of the task of the department. It incorporates both personal and community services.

Hon members are entitled to ask me how our medical services are going to operate under the new dispensation. In the nature of the matter this will have to be given serious consideration. If hon members want me to spell it out in detail I must admit that it is not possible for me to do. For example, there is the position of the provinces that are directly and very closely involved in health services. Their role has not yet been finalized. For the rest, very hard work is being done at present in respect of the place of local authorities under the new dispensation. As far as health is concerned, local authorities give us no problems. Recently no fewer than 38 Black local authorities were established. In the eyes of the Department of Health and Welfare they are all local authorities. They are provided with services on an agency basis. In Soweto the health services are provided by the Health Department of Soweto’s local authority, and the services are provided in co-operation with the corresponding department of the Johannesburg City Council. They help one another. Hon members must understand that this is a process which must develop and which cannot be completed overnight. People will have to be trained; officials and medical practitioners have to be trained. This training can take years. Nevertheless, services are provided at each of those 38 local authorities. They are provided on an agency basis, in other words, the nearest local authority which they were connected with in the past, provides assistance. The Department of Health and Welfare is accustomed—I have already spelled this out—to the subsidization of health services provided by local authorities. Therefore it will not be out of the ordinary for us to further extend this subsidy to other local authorities.

There are community services provided in a community. A tuberculosis bacillus knows no boundaries. Therefore, in the nature of the matter there will have to be overall planning with regard to personal services, eg hospital services. Hospital services will have to develop over the years. For example, it is impossible to cut Tygerberg Hospital in half and say that one part belongs to the Whites and another to the Coloureds. When services of this kind are rendered there is no sense in seeking to apply a CP policy. The only decision that will have to be taken will be where the real control of specific health services will have to be. It is true that as matters stand at present, certain services fall under the central Government, others under the provinces and still others under local authorities. Therefore the only matter about which finality will have to be reached is who should in fact have control of health services as they are at present and as they will be proceeded with in future.

I do not believe it can be expected of me to specify with finality who will exercise that control of health services. At this point it is impossible to say who this will be because the position of the provinces and the local authorities has not yet been finalized. But I really cannot see that health services should be divided and separated.

Mr Chairman, I request the privilege of the half-hour.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for a very interesting start to this debate. He painted a broad picture of the health situation in South Africa and during my speech I will refer to many of the points which he raised. I would also like to thank the hon the Minister and the directorate of his department for their kindness and help during the past year as well as for the report of the department which was published very much earlier this year than previous years. I would also like to thank the Medical Research Council through the hon the Minister for their very adequate and informative report.

The official Opposition believe that all South Africans should have health facilities and that nothing should be kept from them because of economic reasons. We also believe that there should be only one central Department of Health. We are against the fragmentation of health services in Southern Africa. The hon the Minister said quite rightly that tuberculosis germs know no boundaries. I think the total health plan should be the responsibility of one department. We are opposed to dividing it into different departments of health for the different states.

Thirdly, I should like to tell the hon the Minister that we still believe that segregation in health services is totally unnecessary. We believe that a great deal of our financial and manpower resources can be better utilized if segregation in health services is removed.

I wanted to make these three points to put our point of view before we start the debate.

*We have no problem with much of what the hon the Minister said in his speech. He outlined the responsibilities of his department as well as the health plan his department offers South Africans. The hon the Minister also referred to diseases such as tuberculosis and cholera. It is quite true that there are still far too many cases of tuberculosis in South Africa and that it is no longer such a serious disease as it used to be in the past. I agree with that. Today we have the most modern diagnostic methods to diagnose diseases such as cholera and tuberculosis. We also have the best medicines, but this disease remains a problem all the same. These diseases and many others have socio-economic causes. We shall always have the problem of these diseases as long as the socio-economic conditions remain as they are at the moment and do not improve. In countries such as England, America and also in Western Europe these diseases belonged to the past long before the arrival of modern medicines and diagnostic methods, due to better housing, education, sanitation, water supply etc. Therefore, when speaking of health, we should not only judge the diseases, but should also look at all the socio-economic conditions that accompany them.

†Mr Chairman, in the short time available to the official Opposition, subjects that we want to discuss during this debate will include health and welfare in relation to the new constitution, the annual report of 1983, other health matters, including the excessive cost of being ill, smoking, malnutrition, family planning and the national community health strategy. I am very glad that the hon the Minister touched on most of these during his introductory speech.

*When we look at the explanatory memorandum for the financial year 1984-85, it is very important to note that the departmental budget amounts to about R1 700 000 000, in comparison to the R1 400 000 000 for the previous financial year. This represents an increase of about R300 million. According to the explanatory memorandum no important change in policy or emphasis is envisaged for the 1984-1985 financial year. I quote:

This is a matter of concern to us. In the light of what the hon the Minister has said about the high cost of medicine today I think there is no doubt that the increase in the Budget for the 1984-85 financial year fails to keep pace with what is absolutely essential for health services in our country. For example, this increase of R300 million includes R76 million for the escalation of continuation costs and R178 million for salary improvements. Salary increases alone represent 39% of the total increased costs. About R19 million was budgeted for extensions and new services.

According to the hon the Minister, programme 6—Family Planning—is one of the biggest problems in South Africa and an additional R4 million has been voted for that purpose, R1,6 million of which is for family planning services with the emphasis on the social upliftment of all population groups by means of community development. The hon the Minister has on many occasions said that if we do not succeed with family planning, no constitutional development, nor any of our other plans, will succeed. Is the hon the Minister not, therefore, of the opinion that more money should be voted for this very important matter?

†Mr Chairman, we have very little information—and in this regard the hon the Minister did not help us today—about the future of health services in South Africa. What will happen when the new dispensation comes into being? For example, what will be own and what will be general affairs? I recently read a very extensive exposition by the Director-General when he spoke to the Institute of Public Health last year. He dealt with the future of South African health services and with the health strategy plan and family planning. He described future planning, and stated inter alia:

With that I have no problem, Sir. The Director-General also stated that his department had already identified functions associated with group and community interests, and those associated with general and national issues. He said that his department had made a preliminary study of the nature of the functions and the numbers, and in this regard we have the following: General functions, 248, or 52%; group functions 149, or 31%, provincial or private, 86, or 14% and local management 16, or 3%. I believe that at the parliamentary level each House will deal with health matters pertaining to its own race. I think the hon the Minister indicated that Black local authorities will have their own health departments. However, I believe that this is going to result in a further fragmentation of South Africa’s health services system, and will also bring about increased costs and make more demands on our manpower. I will, however, leave this matter here as one of my colleagues will deal with it in greater detail.

Mr. Chairman, I come now to a very important problem to which the hon the Minister has referred to repeatedly during this year.

*Over the past year the hon the Minister has repeatedly expressed his concern about expensive medicine and expensive health services, and he concentrated on the private sector in particular. He reiterated today that the budget of R1 500 million for this year will be R10 000 million in the year 2000. In a speech he delivered to the Pharmaceutical Society in May 1984 the hon the Minister said: “Daar moet nie handel gedryf word met ’n pasiënt se siekte nie”. Later on he said: “Geen wins op medisyne nie”. I should now like to ask the hon the Minister a question arising from the decision by the hon the Minister of Finance to increase sales tax to 10%. Does he consider it just that taxes should be collected from people’s illnesses? The hon the Minister mentioned the increased costs in the private sector, for example on the profits of pharmacists, but if he wants to be honest he must admit that a large proportion of the cost of medicine and health services can be ascribed to actions by the Government and in particular by the hon the Minister of Finance. Nowadays, when a patient undergoes open heart surgery the tax recovered by the Government represents R500 to R1 000, about 10% of the total cost of such an operation. In this regard perhaps the hon the Minister should take a look at rising costs in other areas as well. Are there not, perhaps, other reasons why the cost of medicines and health services is so high in South Africa? I want to exchange a few ideas with the hon the Minister in this regard. Other countries are also experiencing problems with the cost of medicine and health services. In America at the moment, private hospitals are having to close down because of the tremendously high costs. In England, on the other hand, the Government is trying to get away from its socialist system by changing over to a kind of medical insurance.

†It is estimated that in America the expenditure on medical services in 1984 will be 1 500 dollars per head, in England 600 dollars per head and in Japan 500 dollars per head. These figures would seem to indicate that medical care in the United States is the best, but whereas they spend three times as much on health services per head than in Japan, life expectancy is only 75 years, whereas in Japan it is 77 years. As regards infant mortality, the figure for Japan is seven per 1 000 compared to 12 per 1 000 in the United States. With these figures in mind, I think we should look at the different health services.

I believe that modern medicine can provide cheap health services, but that modern politics does not allow this to happen. In this regard it is interesting to read about the Japanese health system, as follows:

Perhaps this is the key. We know it is very expensive to pay for medical care, but let us find out whether it is cheaper to pay for being healthy. At the moment our health services in the private sector are directed at treating the sick person. I think the hon the Minister and his department can and must give a lead, as is being done in respect of Government health services, in converting health care in the private sector to the same type of system, as community health. Again with regard to Japan, I want to read the following:

If we speak about this in South Africa, everyone becomes very excited and very worried. I nevertheless feel that there is a need for a new approach. In America they have already started with the establishment of health maintenance organizations. These consist of groups of doctors providing a service to people in order to keep them healthy. You pay a certain amount of money to enable you to go to these clinics where you are looked after. Unfortunately time will not allow me to expand on this subject, but it has already been proved in the United States that the people who join these organizations go to hospital 20% to 40% less frequently than people who belong to ordinary medical insurance schemes. Secondly, the cost per person in respect of health services has been shown to be half that of people who have health insurance. I think that this is very significant. You see, sir, in South Africa we are not allowed to have group practices. Why not? Why can we not have group practices? Why can a GP, a surgeon, a gynaecologist and members of all the different professions not practise together? What happens now? The poor patient goes to see his GP. Then he has to go right across town to have a blood sample taken. Then it takes him another hour to go across town to have an X-ray taken. So the expenses mount up and there is a repetition of costs to the patient. That is the first point. Why can we not have group practices?

Secondly, why, for example, are people not allowed to buy reading-glasses across the counter? Why must we spend R180 going to an optometrist? In that respect, too, the hon the Minister must start looking at health costs.

The third point is also very important. The hon the Minister touched upon it in his speech. Why is the pharmacist only allowed to work for another pharmacist or for the State? Why can doctors not employ him in a big practice? Also—and I hope I will not be shot for saying this—why can we not advertise in medicine? If we want a free market system—and the hon the Minister spoke of that—why do we not allow a free market system in this field? Why do we not allow hospitals and pharmacies to advertise? People would then know where they can get the best and cheapest service. Why can that not be done?

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

Unfortunately, I have very little time. When I am finished, the hon member can put his question.

A colleague of mine will speak about smoking. I would just like to tell the hon the Minister that I am very disappointed in his department and in the hon the Minister himself for the way they deal with smoking and the use of alcohol. It is a fact that, if a pharmaceutical drug results in a death rate of one in a million, that drug will not only be withdrawn from the market but the manufacturers will most likely be sued for millions of rand. However, cigarette smoking is much more risky and harmful to health. If tobacco were a pharmaceutical product, it would undoubtedly be banned. The same goes for alcohol. There is no doubt about that. I should like to hon the Minister to think very carefully about this.

Lastly, I want to refer to the recent conference on malnutrition and poverty held at the University of Cape Town. The hon the Prime Minister mentioned that during the discussion of his Vote and, at the time, the hon the Minister of Health and Welfare, by way of a question, indicated that neither he nor anyone of his department was invited to attend that conference. I think that that was a mistake. Representatives of the department should have been invited. However, I think the hon the Minister has a marvellous opportunity today to tell the House of the findings and the plans of his department as far as poverty and malnutrition are concerned. That is what we must debate today. The hon the Minister can then prove those people wrong or he can agree with them. Let me just give one quote. Prof Kibel, head of the Child Health Unit of the University of Cape Town, in my opinion a very serious and honest investigator, said:

I should like the hon the Minister to tell the Committee today where he agrees or disagrees with the findings of this statement.

Concerning community health centres, which the hon the Minister also spoke of and which we and the Government believe to be absolutely essential for the promotion of health in South Africa, I should also like to ask the hon the Minister how many such centres there are completed and planned and how he is recruiting adequate staff for them.

I find it incredible that the Minister, in reply to questions I put to him, tell me that of the 31 000 Blacks who applied to be trained as nurses less than 4 000 could be accepted. That means that 27 000 prospective nurses are lost to the profession. I do accept of course that many of them do not have the necessary qualifications but I do also believe that many of them can also not be trained because of a lack of training facilities. Therefore I should like to ask the hon the Minister to see to it that the necessary facilities for the training of nurses are made available because we do need many more trained nurses in South Africa to bring primary health care to our people.

I do believe that South Africans deserve good and highly developed health services. I also believe that it is the duty of us in this House to see to it that the still developing section of our community is also enabled to enjoy the best possible medical care.

Mr Chairman, in the first place I want to congratulate the hon the Minister and the Department of Health and Welfare most sincerely today on everything they have achieved during the past year. When we look at the excellent annual report, in which the activities of this department are summarized—both in the field of health and in the field of welfare and pensions—we have to admit today that this hon Minister and his department, with the means at their disposal, and with the new approach which the hon the Minister and the Director-General have adopted during the past year have instilled an absolutely new spirit in health services, as well as in welfare services in South Africa. We are delighted about this and we congratulate the hon the Minister and all the members of staff of the department on this achievement.

As far as the speech of the hon member for Parktown is concerned, I just want to point out that, as usual, he made a very good contribution here. He pointed out a few interesting aspects, and I am certain that the hon the Minister is quite capable of replying to him when he speaks again. Of course some hon members on this side of the House will also refer specifically to the matters raised by the hon member for Parktown.

In the short time at my disposal I should very much like to say a few words this afternoon about something I want to refer to briefly as Carnegie I and Carnegie II. In this respect I am referring to the poor White problem during the ’thirties, as investigated by the first Carnegie Commission, which consisted of five commissioners. Of course a number of professors in social work were subsequently brought out from the USA to assist the commission. It was, however, in the main an investigation by Afrikaners among Afrikaners; an investigation which took place 50 years ago, and which concentrated on the rural areas in particular.

The second Carnegie investigation, which is still in progress at the moment, is concerned particularly with poverty among Blacks and other people of colour in South Africa. This is an investigation which was initiated by members of a specific department at the University of Cape Town. It is an investigation by English-speaking people among Blacks and other people of colour and is taking place without the co-operation of a single State department.

Carnegie I and Carnegie II’s activities are separated by a space of 50 years. As far as their premises and objectives, as well as their modus operandi and philosophical social approach are concerned, the two Carnegie Commissions differ radically from each other. They also differ radically from each other as with regard to the composition of the investigating team in each case, with regard to the respective racial groups being investigated, and with regard to the political premises of the respective commissions. I feel that these facets are extremely important when evaluating these two investigations. I shall return to this later in my speech.

I want to point out, however, that today no one can deny that Carnegie I and Carnegie II are among the most important landmarks in the social development of South Africa. For students of sociology and social work the report of the first Carnegie Commission, and the results of that investigation, are probably among the most important reading matter they will come across in their entire period of study. One of the most important results of the first investigation was that the poor-white problem was solved and in the second place that the Department of Health and Welfare was in fact established as a result of the investigations and the recommendations it made and the two congresses which resulted from it, and today it is one of the best departments in our Public Service.

When we consider Carnegie II, we find it is still in the process of being completed. It also has a far more open approach and formulation of objections and with all due respect, an almost naïve hope that the problem of poverty among Blacks and Coloureds in South Africa will simply solve itself if everyone simply discharges his obligations. I shall also say more about this later.

I think it is also important for us to say a few words about poverty as such. It goes without saying that a great deal has been done and many words written about the problem of poverty in South Africa. I want to quote a few scholars to use as a background in evaluating Carnegie I and II. Prof Homero Ferrinho summarized the problem very well indeed in his book Towards a Theory of Community Development. I think this is one of the most important matters we can listen to this afternoon, because this man summarizes the matter very tersely. He says that community efforts which include social work, community health and all other supportive services by the State and society, directed by the authorities, are the only way in which macro problems such as inflation, unemployment, poverty and underdevelopment can be overcome. If we have to assess the present investigation then we notice that Carnegie II is diametrically opposed to what Prof Ferrinho says here.

I now come to the most important objection I have to the present investigation, which is being conducted by the faculty at the University of Cape Town. It is that it is specifically in this field that the organizers went ahead as if the State and the various State departments relevent in this field simply did not exist. In the second place I think it is flagrantly unscientific, naïve, politically one-sided and a disservice to those people battling with the probelm of poverty, to deny that the State should have a direct input in regard to any investigation, including the one I have referred to. Today I want to ask why the organizers of the Carnegie II investigation—they are still engaged in it and a series of conferences will follow—did not invite the Department of Health and Welfare to attend the conference. Why was the Department of Co-operation and Development not invited? Why was the Department of Internal Affairs not invited? There are also many other State departments they could have invited and could have involved in this effort.

What does Prof Geoffrey Walters say in his book The Culture of Poverty and the South African Poor? He also makes it quite clear that poor communities in a free market situation develop a particular life-style which could be called a poverty culture. I think the hon member for Parktown should listen to this because he simply wants to compare the position in South Africa with that in Japan, which one cannot do. I shall return to this point later.

South Africa with its First and Third World economy lends itself easily to this poverty culture. That is what Prof Walters says. This fact is also confirmed by Prof Sakkie van Eeden in his book Armoede in Sosiologiese Perspektief when he says that there are definite socio-pathological conditions which can be directly associated with the poverty situation or the low economic strata. He says, however, that these people become an easier prey to a revolution of rising expectations inter alia and that this could easily give rise to a revolution in the community. I do not want to pursue this matter any further than to point out that reading between the lines he also says that according to Marx’s doctrine, South Africa’s proletariat would be the ideal breeding ground for revolution in this regard.

The last academic I want to quote this afternoon to motivate my evaluation of Carnegie I and II is Prof Sample Terblanche in his book Gemeenskapsarmoede in which he makes it quite clear that this phenomenon cuts right through the Coloured community. He says:

He says that there is a solution. I think it is extremely important for Carnegie II to take note of this as well, namely that only the church, the State, the private sector and the local authorities can intervene and try to help, because people who can no longer help themselves have to be helped by others. Thus far I have given a few opinions of academics.

This brings me to the poor White problem of the thirties.

Order! I am sorry, but the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I am merely rising to give the hon member for Brits an opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon PFP Whip and I also want to thank him in advance because he is going to withdraw his Smoking Bill, because it is nothing but a worthless pile of ash.

I quoted the above views because I feel that without a proper academic and practical substructure, Carnegie I and II cannot be judged properly.

This brings me to the poor White problem or Carnegie I. This investigation was unique. It was interdisciplinary, it included church and other welfare organizations, it worked independently and it arrived at individual conclusions. The investigation took three years, from 1929 to 1932. Five separate volumes were published, and in each of these volumes there was a summary of the entire investigation. It was published in Afrikaans and English. The investigation was conducted by a commission of enquiry which consisted of the five heads of the various departments. They travelled the length and breadth of South Africa. They visited every poor White home. In this way they were able to get a very good idea of what the problem really involved.

Dr Murry—he was one of the commissioners—tells us that one of the characteristics of the poor Whites in the thirties was that they were extremely hospitable. Wherever the commission went they were welcomed. When he conducted the same investigation a few years later in the southern areas of the USA, also among the poor Whites in areas where Blacks were in the majority, he found the opposite to be true. There was none of the hospitality and friendliness which was typical of our people in this country.

There were specific views the commission brought to the fore. One has to bear in mind that this investigation was undertaken in the thirties. Many of those specific views are a source of concern because many of the tendencies pointed out by that well-balanced commission, are still to be found in our society today. I shall, however, confine myself to the commission’s findings, of which I only want to mention three. In the first place, they pointed out that when one spoke to the poor Whites about work or labour, it was quite clear that they felt that the hard manual labour they were doing was work which the non-Whites should do. In the second place they felt the White man was predestined to be the master for ever. In the third place, this attitude has to a great extent remained part of the attitude towards life of many people in South African society to this very day. It is significant that these characteristics were already singled out by this commission of inquiry in the thirties. The problem of poverty is an economic problem which knows no colour, sex or creed. The commission also found that when Blacks and Whites live and work in the same country, the Whites enjoy preference as far as aid is concerned. The term “poor White” applies only in South Africa and in certain countries in South America where there are more Blacks than Whites. The commission pointed out that there was a fear among Whites in the lowest strata of Blacks in the top strata, in the sense that the people of colour might take over the work of the Whites. This phobia still exists in South African society today.

This brings me to another very important observation of the commission, namely while they were investigating the poor White problem they also identified a similar problem among the Blacks in the rural areas. As a matter of fact it was found that among the Blacks the problem was even more serious than among the Whites. Futile as it was, at that stage the slogan was “Back to the land”. This did not work out, however. The powers of nature and the powers of the economy do not respect colour. There was no solution for the poor Blacks at that stage simply because there was no industrial development yet and therefore no job opportunities with the training, etcetera, that accompany such development. Today the situation is appreciably different, of course.

A term I want to use here is human ecology. The poor Whites were frequently the victims of their environment, but frequently they were the cause of their own downfall. As a matter of fact, we could almost talk about a poor White mentality which existed because these people resisted any effort to uplift them by finding work for them. They blamed everyone except themselves for their predicament. To them it was not a case of: “The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves that we are underlings”. Of course this applies to all poor people. Psychologically this is a human defence mechanism.

Carnegie I’s approach was totally holistic, ie they looked at the situation as a whole and passed their conclusions on it. If the blood stream is contaminated, they said, it must first be purified, otherwise the sores on the body will never heal.

What is important is that as far as Carnegie I was concerned, the solution to this problem lay in development and without anticipating the Carnegie II investigation I can say that the solution to the problem of the poor Blacks and the poor Coloureds also lies in this direction, because no solution other than a socio-economic solution is possible. We see this if we look back at the poor White problem. The moment industries began to develop, the moment infrastructures began to arise and there were developments in the field of education, the problem began to solve itself. In this regard World War II had a positive effect, because it created thousands of job opportunities for young Whites from the rural areas through which they were removed from their poor White environment and saw new horizons and then returned to those communities to undertake the task of uplifting them.

What I actually want to say, is that a fact stated unequivocally, is the most powerful instrument of change. The two congresses which resulted from the Carnegie investigations, namely the poor White congress from the first investigation and the congress on social work from the second, very clearly outlined that the solution lay in development and in the fact that a specific department was then created to deal with this.

In conclusion I want to refer briefly to the differences between the first and the second Carnegie investigations. Hon members will then understand the position better. The first Carnegie investigation was undertaken by a commission and the second by a faculty at a university in connection with a group other than Whites. The first Carnegie investigation led to two national congresses which in their turn led to the establishment of a department and the eventual solution of the problem. The second Carnegie investigation intends merely to create an open discussion so that a debate can be conducted and efforts can be initiated in South Africa which may lead to changes in a society which they refer to as a so-called “unjust” society. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, in so far as the hon member for Brits referred to the question of poverty, every right-minded individual will agree with him that ways and means must be found to fight or combat it, and he is right when he says that as far as he is concerned one of the optimum solutions lies in development.

I want to agree with the hon the Minister who paid tribute to South Africa’s health services and to the men and women who successfully man its ranks. We can rightfully be proud of these people. The hon the Minister specifically referred to medical specialists. In the same vein I want to pay tribute to general practitioners or, as we would say in colloquial terms, the family doctor.

In my reasonably long life, extending as it has over a period of 57 years, it has fortunately not been all that often that I have felt, in the middle of a cold winter’s night, that I needed a medical doctor. In such circumstances one wonders whether one should not persevere until the next morning when the sun is up before waking the doctor from his cosy, warm winter sleep. It is typical of our family doctors, however, that they do not mind being called out in the cold of a winter’s night or on a Sunday afternoon, when many other people are enjoying an afternoon nap. They are always ready to look after their patients. Family doctors in the rural areas must, for example, cover long distances to serve their calling in the interests of their patients. I therefore support the hon the Minister in saying thank you to the department and to the doctors.

For the most part the hon the Minister finds himself in a very fortunate and privileged position. He was previously in charge of the Department of Water Affairs, a vital department. No human being, animal or plant can live without water. Now the hon the Minister finds himself in another such department, the Department of Health and Welfare. I would like to add “and Life”, so that the full name would be the Department of Health, Welfare and Life.

When one looks at the report of the department, one sees that there is hardly a single aspect of our social life that is not touched upon or on which this department does not exercise its influence. So as water is vital to the preservation of life, the activities of this department, for example health services and welfare services, are vital to all people. Let me just mention a few of the facets dealt with by this department: Mental health, medical care, district surgeon services, community health services, care of the aged, family care, school health services, dental services and environmental services. I should like to quote, from page 30, what the report says about environmental services:

This department also looks after health planning and family planning and is also responsible for combating alcoholism and drug dependence. It is also responsible for psychiatric social work, child and family welfare services, care of the aged and care of the handicapped.

Today I briefly want to dwell on three aspects and ask the hon the Minister to give these aspects his attention. Earlier today the hon member for Parktown referred to the first of these aspects. I am also aware of the fact that this matter, involving the high cost of medicine, was discussed very thoroughly in the House a few weeks ago. It does, however, give cause for concern. There are a group of people in South Africa who do not have the privilege of belonging to medical schemes. I have in mind, for example, farmers, retired fanners, businessmen, employees of small business undertakings, etc. They do not have medical aid funds. Similarly there are thousands of people in South Africa who are not members of any medical scheme. Those are the people who have to pay for every drop of medicine themselves. As the hon the Minister said earlier, during the discussion of the legislation, the high cost of medicine gives cause for concern.

I just want to mention that I have heard, on occasion, that one of the reasons for the high cost of medicine is that the manufacturers furnish large quantities to the State and certain large institutions, on tender, thus forcing one another’s prices down to such an extent that they are sometimes furnishing the medicine at a loss. I also understand that the consumption by large institutions is approximately 80%. This results in the remaining 20% being taken up by pharmacists. The medicines are then purchased by patients who must then contribute—that is my information—towards compensating for the losses suffered on the other 80%. I therefore trust the hon the Minister will constantly keep his eyes and ears open as far as this problem is concerned.

I should also like to bring a second matter to the hon the Minister’s attention. I have already raised this several times in the House. I shall continue to do so until a commission is appointed to investigate the matter, until my voters no longer return me to the House or until old age removes me from my present position. [Interjections.] I shall continue to deliver this plea, which relates to homes for the aged. At present there are 356 subsidized homes for the aged in South Africa, and the annual subsidies amount to more than R35 million. I should like to dwell on one group of senior citizens, ie those who look after their own accommodation. I am speaking about those men and women who see to it that they have their own little home, whether it be their own property or whether they rent it from someone else. They see to it that they have a roof over their heads, in spite of the constant increasing cost of living, municipal rates, water and electricity tariffs. We are very glad that the hon the Minister of Finance has exempted certain basic foodstuffs from the 10% sales tax, but the aged do still have to buy clothes and shoes, and there are many other things they have to have. If, as a result of these high costs, an aged married couple were forced to leave their home and go to a home for the aged, the State would immediately have to pay a subsidy to the home for those two old people who now have to be accommodated there. I therefore want to ask the hon the Minister to investigate the possibility of giving senior citizens who live in their own homes some or other form of assistance, perhaps in the form of a housing subsidy or whatever. I am lodging a plea for this because as soon as they are forced to leave their own homes and to go to a home for the aged, a financial obligation is placed on the shoulders of the State by virtue of the State having to subsidize the homes for the aged. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I cannot find much fault with the hon member for Meyerton’s contribution. I do want to tell him, however, that he is a wonderful patient in the sense of having enough consideration not to call his doctor out on a cold night. He is thereby undoubtedly setting a very good example.

In regard to the problem of expensive medicine, to which the hon member also referred, the hon the Minister is giving it his serious attention and will quite probably be reacting to what the hon member for Meyerton had to say about it.

The hon member for Parktown is as wonderful a doctor as the hon member for Meyerton is a wonderful patient. But can you believe, Sir, a trained man advocating here that we should be able to sell spectacles across the counter? I cannot believe it. One of these days we shall probably be seeing the hon member for Parktown peddling spectacles on the Parade. [Interjections.] Since he came to light with the idea this year, let me urge hon members of the official Opposition to have their teeth very well cared for. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Brits spoke about the department’s annual report. By any standards it is an outstanding publication, and I want to congratulate and sincerely thank everyone involved in its publication.

In the light of the report of the Science Committee of the President’s Council, I should briefly like to say something about community development in general, and more specifically refer to the necessity for community involvement if plans in that connection are to succeed. Researchers, demographers, prognosticators, prophets of doom, planners and others have, over the years, frequently focused on the year 2000, and the question that is quite rightly asked is how things will be in the year 2000. Whether we have thought that the year 2000 still lay far into the future, or whether we have perhaps been afraid to face up to its concrete manifestations, the fact is that we frequently act in such a way as to give the impression that we are simply leaving it to posterity to struggle with the problems there will be in the year 2000. With the tabling of the President’s Council report, a few facts have suddenly come to the fore. One of these is that the population is increasing too rapidly, whilst the available means for our existence are limited. Secondly, disrupting that balance could have serious socio-economic consequences. A further truth that has suddenly been brought home to one is that the year 2000 is, in point of fact, upon us. Those searching for solutions for the problems of the year 2000 have already all been born, and we can therefore no longer entrust the task to posterity. In looking for the solutions to this problem, we cannot afford to make mistakes, because there is no longer any time to put matters right. For the record, I want to state today that it is with gratitude and appreciation that we can attest to the fact that the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and the department, in co-operation with the entire public sector are dealing with the matter of community development as a top priority. There are clear signs that the message of the committee of the President’s Council has been properly understood and that concerted efforts are being made to combat this problem. Not only do we want to congratulate everyone involved in drawing up the population development programme, but we also want to thank them sincerely for the work they have already done in this connection.

If one were to note the full extent of this plan, it would soon be evident that the State could not tackle it alone. It would immediately be evident that it would not be possible to carry out even the very best plan unless all communities, including White and Coloured communities, became directly and intensively involved. The question is whether we have succeeded in conveying the message contained in the report of the President’s Council to the respective communities. I am afraid the answer to that is “no”. Proof of this lies in the fact that at community level there is not yet the desired degree of involvement. One naturally appreciates what has already been achieved and one also appreciates the work that has already been done by certain bodies, and the work they are busy doing now, but that is not enough. I think that if we do not get people emotionally involved in this, time will pass, thus limiting the opportunities for really doing something. If the emotion generated in the Skilpadsaal could only be channelled into community development, we would be doing our country and its people a service.

You are just jealous.

There is no question of jealousy.

There is one matter about which there should be no doubt, and hon members of the CP must listen now. If we do not succeed in our population development programme, it will probably not be possible for the various population groups to maintain their own cultures. The Government has already furnished proof of the seriousness of its endeavour to give systematic guidance in this connection, by way of financial support or otherwise. We hope that representations for funds for this purpose will never fall on deaf ears.

But what about the role of the community? I want to make an earnest appeal to all associations, boards, agricultural unions, committees, etc, of which there are enough to cover the whole spectrum of community involvement, to give positive support to this matter. We have the men and women who have, over the years, with a flair for and a knowledge of organization, played a positive role in community life. Having once committed ourselves to action in an effort to overcome the problem, we must go further. Let us ascertain where, if at all, there are possibilities for contact with community-orientated organizations amongst the Coloureds, so that we can, in line with our calling, bring the seriousness of the problem, and what we think is the right solution, to the attention of those who, like the Whites, are affected. We can thereby ensure that from the ranks of all interested communities a joint effort will be made to combat this problem. I think it will only be possible for the co-ordinating local committees, which are to be established, to identify the problem and take effective action if all cultural, service and other organizations are prepared to join hands and tackle the problem unstintingly. May it be said in 16 years’ time, ie in the year 2000, that we were indeed prepared to tackle the problem of ordered community development and that we succeeded.

In the moment or so I have left I should like to refer to people who have indeed been prepared—and have already done a great deal—to do community service under the circumstances prevailing in their local communities. I should like to mention the name of a nurse whom the hon the Minister himself has met, a certain Sister Loots from the Skuinsdrif area to the west of Rustenburg. She is one of many who, with an enthusiasm that is catching, is unstintingly devoted to the task we have just been speaking about. With her mobile clinic she is doing outstanding work. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I am rather amused because on 5 April I spoke about family planning and the hon member for Rustenburg said I made a wilful speech because I asked for more money and more effort to be put into that. Now he is promoting exactly the same thing I was promoting then.

Sir, I listened with great interest to what the hon the Minister had to say at the beginning of the debate. I was interested to hear that he is going ahead with community care centres. In my constituency there is one waiting for funds and assistance from the department at the moment. One of our local authorities will also be asking for assistance shortly, and I hope they will not have to wait too long. I should also like to say that a White medical faculty at the University of Natal is long overdue. I respectfully ask the hon the Minister to give that some consideration.

I want to thank the department for the comprehensive annual report which contains a lot of valuable information. The major criticism I have is the fact that only 2,19% of the total budget has been allotted to Programme 6 and that only one page of the report is devoted to family planning, the subject I wish to deal with today. Before doing so, I wish to refer to certain remarks made by the hon member for Parktown. On 5 April the hon member said (Hansard, col 4551):

If my ears did not deceive me, earlier today the hon member for Parktown actually questioned the hon the Minister on why he was spending so little on Programme 6. I want to say to the hon member for Parktown, who delights in attacking me—that is his prerogative—that there is the saying: “often we attack and make ourselves enemies to conceal that we are vulnerable”. On 5 April the hon member for Parktown went on to quote the following (cols 4552-3):

So the hon member underlines the fact that poverty causes malnutrition. I must say that the hon member for Parktown has made malnutrition his hobby-horse, which is really commendable. That is a subject that needs constant attention. However, while, on humanitarian grounds alone, no one likes to see starving people, there is only one permanent solution to the problem, namely to reduce the population increase. Malnutrition, as he rightly says, comes from poverty, no more and no less. A high birth rate is a sure fire recipe for poverty. The sooner the hon member for Parktown realizes that South Africa does not have unlimited resources in terms of land, water, minerals and fuel, let alone finance, the better. Every day there are about 3 000 more people to feed, house and employ than there were the day before. Unless this trend is quickly arrested, there is no possibility of raising living standards, let alone providing food and work for the increasing numbers.

Speaking of raising standards, Mr Chairman, this year a sum of R1,155 billion is to be spent on welfare promotion for all races in South Africa. The hon the Minister says that a comprehensive population programme is necessary with the objective to raise the quality of life and of living standards for all the people in South Africa. Nobody can query that, and I do not think anybody will fail to support him in that view of his. My question is, however, how the hon the Minister is going to achieve this, because there is one essential element in controlling the population growth that cannot be accomplished at the expense of or with the exclusion of an active family planning programme. With the problems facing us in South Africa—to which I will refer shortly— I do not believe, with the greatest respect, that the amount of money which we are spending on family planning, a programme which consists of clinical services, education and community development, is anywhere near the amount which we should be spending if we want to have any success in curbing the population growth.

One has only to look at community development to realize that it is an ideal long-term area in which to begin. In the short term, however, we seem to forget that we are living in a First World and a Third World country. Our problems at the moment, I believe, call for immediate solutions, and it may already be too late. Long-term planning we should surely have, but short-term planning is absolutely imperative. There are certain remarks I have made before and which, I believe, I should repeat. In this respect I quote from the President’s Council’s report, as follows:

Our present urban population is 16 million. According to projections it will increase to 36 million by the year 2000, which means that it will more than double in 16 years. The total population projection for the year 2000 is 50 million, and for the year 2020 it is 81 million, if we continue on our present course. Again I ask the question: Are we doing enough about the ever increasing birth rate? There can be no doubt—and here I agree with the hon the Minister—that social upliftment has to be promoted in order to create a climate that can contribute to a lowering of fertility norms. To begin the upliftment programme, however, one must surely provide adequate housing. In every country it is the masses that create the problems, and the masses are unable to help themselves. We have to help them.

I come back now to the position of housing. We know that the Government is faced with an almost superhuman task of providing housing, and while everything possible is being done, and large amounts of State funds are being used to provide housing, there is still a tremendous backlog. The Government have admitted they cannot cope with the situation on their own. They have asked private enterprise to assist them in this respect. It is little wonder therefore that the population growth rate in South Africa is one of the highest in the world. 90% of our arable land is already being cultivated. This is more than the 80% of that of Europe and of South East Asia, and considerably more than the 60% of North America and Russia.

In 1973, when the total population reached 23 million, there was 0,57 ha of arable land per person in South Africa. In the year 2000 there will only be an estimated 0,32 ha per person, which is less than the 0,4 ha considered necessary to provide one person with sufficient food.

Food is necessary for survival but if living standards are to be improved in general, then more minerals, fuels and other raw materials are required. These are on earth in a limited quantity, and the more the people that have to share them the less each one can receive. To uplift our total population to, let us say, an average world standard, would at the present time—without any population increase—place a tremendous strain on our existing resources. I am thoroughly convinced that we are facing a crisis situation, and with the greatest respect, I suggest the Government must come out loud and clear with their national policy for family planning because I believe the family planning service, where not lacking, is totally inadequate, and in many areas it is completely non-existent.

The family planning programme is run at six different levels, namely State, provincial, Divisional Council, municipal, voluntary and family planning associations. Everybody is completely self-satisfied and there is no co-ordinated action or co-operation. Here again I must come back to the position of finance, and I specifically ask the hon member for Parktown to listen carefully to the contents of a letter from which I wish to quote. It is a letter received from the Department of Health and Welfare, and is dated 10 February 1984. It concerns family planning, and the second paragraph reads as follows:

I want to ask the hon member for Parktown how he can say that money plays no part in the population growth expansion programme. I wonder how he reasons in this regard.

Let us assume now that family planning services are adequately catered for in the cities and urban areas, which I do not believe they are. However, what of the rural areas? I believe that family planning facilities there are completely inadequate and, in a number of cases, completely non-existent. Very large percentages of Blacks—62%— and Coloureds—23,4%—are still living in the rural areas that are underdeveloped and depressed. As I said earlier on, it is the masses that are the problem and we are in the position to help them. They are uneducated and unsophisticated, and I do not believe that we are providing them with the necessary service or giving them a fair chance to become fully acquainted with family planning. It is said by those who have not been in close touch with planned parenthood organizations in South Africa that it is practically impossible to get the Blacks to control their number of children. I do not believe that this is correct. The experience of local organizations has been that there is in fact a massive demand for their services but that the available funds are still very low relative to the task.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon Whip, Mr Chairman.

The fact that there was a massive demand for these services but that funds were inadequate was stated by an active family planning association. In this regard I should like to quote from an article written by Phillip Moore in which he says:

The department has to provide an accessible service right throughout the country, a service that not only satisfies existing demands but also stimulates the natural diffusion of family planning among existing cohorts of childbearers and influences the attitudes of the rising generation by promoting the social acceptance of family planning and the actual use of contraceptives by parents. We have to aim at the replacement of the traditional six to seven children family by one of two to three children. This in itself will mean a major restructuring of our society with tremendous implications for the family, the status of women, the value of children and the worth of the individual plus the quality of life.

I am the first to admit that this is a tremendous task that faces us. However, we have to be positive and set high but realistic aims with a sense of urgency, and that requires finance whichever way we look at it.

Let us look at some other countries in the world and the remarkable results that they have achieved. Take the example of Singapore. Singapore’s family planning program was aimed at maintaining a total fertility rate of 2,1, which it achieved in 1975. The social incentives in respect of policies currently in effect to persuade couples to plan for small families include rising delivery fees in government hospitals with increasing birth order; the fee is waived if sterilization is carried out after delivery; there is no paid maternity leave for the delivery of the third and subsequent children if a woman already has two or more living children; there is no income tax relief for the fourth and subsequent children born; there is no priority to large families in the allocation of subsidized housing; and there is a higher priority for choice of primary school for children if one parent has undergone sterilization after one or two children.

China is another country that has had success in this regard, and I should like to quote from their national policy:

There can be no doubt, Sir, that we have to work on an incentive basis, and the incentive for small families should be taxation relaxation or rebates. Bigger families should be financially punished by taxation. We have to make family planning services available right down to every village and hamlet, and it should be a free service. In this regard I believe that the entire medical profession should become involved and motivated. They should be paid by the State for every sterilization performed.

I request the hon the Minister once again seriously to consider the position of a woman in respect of sterilization. She should have the sole right to make her own decision in this regard and not be subservient to anybody. After all, she is the one who carries the baby, and nobody else.

Television, which is a powerful medium, should be used in this regard to a greater degree in making all our population groups aware of the absolute necessity of having smaller families. I should like to say to the hon the Minister that when he made his announcement on the programme he embarked upon, he was completely blotted out by the Nkomati Accord. He chose a bad day. I suggest that he should have another exercise at it.

I believe that all medical aid funds should pay for sterilization, and the service should be available to all, but I emphasize that the choice should be left to the individual. To make the service available to everybody is going to cost much more money that has been allocated. Therefore, my plea is to spend more money, far more than has been spent up to the moment. The Government of the day has a daunting task ahead of it if all our futures are to be secured. The hon the Minister and his department have as their biggest challenge and responsibility, our population explosion. Ways and means have to be found to curb this phenomenal growth drastically. In this regard I wish to place on record this party’s full support to the hon the Minister and his department and to assist as much as possible to what we see as the biggest threat to a future stable society in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, I cannot find any fault with the speech of the hon member for South Coast, and in my speech I am, to a large extent, going to link up with what he said.

Linking up with hon members who referred to the annual report, I should like to point out that what is remarkable about the annual report is the fact that it is about the year 1983. It therefore contains fresh and up-to-date information. All the subjects to which hon members referred in the discussion of welfare and health services are dealt with in the report. It is a report one can profitably make use of.

The report again drew my attention to what the report of the Science Committee of the President’s Council had to say in connection with population growth in the Republic of South Africa. Under the heading Family Planning, the annual report states, on page 39:

In order to discuss this, we must look at a few very important aspects. If we do not succeed in carrying out the Government’s intention, I foresee for South Africa the poverty, famine and misery that we have seen in many other countries of Africa. Nor do we have a great deal of time to put this into operation. Half a century is a very short time, and we no longer have that much time. A quick and concerted effort will have to be made.

At this stage I should also like to express my very great appreciation for the serious manner in which the hon the Minister is approaching this matter.

The first question we shall have to answer is how many people the Republic of South Africa can accommodate, whilst not only maintaining the quality of life, but in fact increasing it. The first factor we must look at involves the available land and its potential to produce food. Although approximately 72% of our available surface area is available for agriculture and forestry, only 12% of the total surface area of the Republic of South Africa is arable, ie 122 million ha. Of that, only 4 million ha can be regarded as high-potential land, and this includes one million hectares of irrigation land. These 4 million hectares of land account for 40% of the total agricultural and horticultural production. As a result of the low carrying capacity, stock farming must be undertaken on an extensive scale. South Africa is one of the few countries exporting agricultural products, and as the population increases, those export products will have to be diverted for our own use. South Africa is known as a relatively dry country, a country with a variable rainfall, a factor which has a restrictive influence on agricultural production. We have experienced this in the past few years. This means that with all the improved scientific production methods, increased production and natures unpredictability, South Africa can, to a certain extent, be self-sufficient. With a growing population, constantly more demands are made on the land, with increasingly more land needed, in the urbanization process, for the establishment of towns, for a transport network, for mining and for other services. It is often said that the numbers of people increase, but that land does not.

I want to refer to another factor. If there is anything that can impede the development of the country, it is the lack of water. South Africa is a dry country with unpredictable rainfall. Water is therefore a valuable commodity in South Africa. As a result of industrialization, urbanization and agricultural development, the demand for this scarce means of existence is constantly increasing. The question of the reliable provision of water is a problematic one. Not only is a large portion of the country relatively dry, but the rainfall and the consequent downflow in our rivers are unpredictable, and therefore the available water supply is limited.

The Department of Environment Affairs and Fisheries calculates that from the point of view of the water sources that we can utilize, we should aim for a population of not more than 80 million for South Africa. If one notes the population projections, made on the basis of the present growth-rate, one sees that in 1980 the population was 28 million, with a population of 41 million predicted for the year 2000, 79 million for the year 2020 and 138 million for the year 2040. At present the South African population is growing at an average rate of 2,3% per annum. If this growth trend were to continue, this would seriously disrupt the required balance between the population as such and the available means for our existence, and that could have far-reaching social and economic consequences, which in turn would prove a serious threat to stability and progress.

A country’s ability to ensure all its people an acceptable standard of living and quality of life is very closely related to a balance being maintained between the size of the population and the extent of the available means for existence. If the population increase exceeds what the means for existence can accommodate, living standards must inevitably drop. Time does not permit me to refer in detail to the various population growth trends, but taking note of factors such as high birth rate figures, lower infant mortality and the greater life expectancy that goes hand in hand with better health care, I am convinced that a sound population development programme will very quickly have to be introduced and will have to start gaining momentum. In such a programme specific goals will definitely have to be focused upon and the population as a whole will have to be involved. Guidance in family planning is an essential element that must be brought home to every population group. It is in everyone’s interest, and should be tackled with all seriousness. The population development programme now being instituted by the department is primarily directed at achieving a low growth projection. In order to achieve that, tremendous demands will be made on the authorities. It is very clear that the public sector cannot accept this challenge all on its own, and the co-ordinated co-operation of the private sector must therefore be sought.

The population development programme chiefly aims at increasing the standard of living and the quality of life of all people in the RSA. Research and practice very clearly indicate that as soon as the quality of people’s lives is meaningfully increased, fertility decreases. The population development programme is a comprehensive one that manifests itself in the social, economic, physico-spatial and political fields. The programme’s chief component consists, firstly, of the acceleration of social, economic and physical development and, secondly, the implementation of community development as a method and process by which people of communities can be given encouragement, support and an opportunity to accept responsibility for their individual efforts to improve their own living conditions, and to do so in accordance with their own norms, by way of self-help programmes and in close co-operation with the authorities. The third important component is the expansion of the family planning programme. Fourthly there is the establishment of a dynamic information, educational and communications programme for the promotion of the overall objectives of the population development programme. What we should therefore achieve is the objective of increasing the standard of living and the quality of life of all people and of achieving the demographic objective of a population of 80 million by the year 2100, with a birth rate of 2,1 children per woman, which can be regarded as a replacement figure.

Mr Chairman, both the previous speakers concentrated their speeches on the problem of uncontrolled population growth and pleaded the cause of family planning with the hon the Minister. The fact that two speakers so far have spoken on this subject and the fact that this subject has come up year after year in the discussion of the Minister’s Vote indicates how seriously the House feels about this problem. I hope the Government will take note of the urgent representations which are being made in this connection.

If one looks at what has happened on the continent of Africa one finds that the population of the continent has virtually doubled over the last 25 years. The serious consequences of that population growth can be seen today throughout the continent. As a result of over-population something like 14 million acres of grazing are being destroyed per annum. In every single country in Africa the per capita production of food is decreasing. What is more serious is that the per capita intake of protein, which is vital for health and life, is reducing throughout the African continent, which results in very serious problems with regard to mental and physical development.

It is true that much can be done by the expenditure of money, by the training of manpower and by the development of projects, but it is equally true that the socio-economic upliftment of people is vitally important. It has been said that there is no better contraceptive than a mortgage bond. When people have to decide between the purchase of a stove, refrigerator or TV set on the one hand and having a child on the other, the material requirement very often succeeds where other methods fail. Representations to the Government to do something about the rapid explosion of the population have many facets. Certainly we need to spend far more on publicity than we are spending at the moment. In 1982-83 we spent R1,3 million and in 1983-84 only R1,6 million. Hon speakers correctly pointed out that that is not nearly sufficient.

It is important also to note that when it comes to sterilization the men of South Africa are not doing their bit. [Interjections.] The number of men being sterilized in South Africa is much smaller than the number of women being sterilized. I believe this Government, which is prepared to pass laws to achieve anything, should … [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member when last he bought a fridge or a stove?

Mr Chairman, the hon member must be careful or I will advocate the idea of amputation. [Interjections.]

One of the most important things is to advance the cause of much larger numbers of people being sterilized, particularly among the male population of the country. I also want to emphasize once again that the Government must—and it can—in many ways do a great deal more to advance the socio-economic development of the people of our country.

I now want to come to the hon the Minister. He got up today at the beginning of the discussion of his Vote and I think that many of us on this side of the House thought that we were going to hear what the hon the Minister or the Government intend doing about ushering in the new dispensation as far as health services in South Africa are concerned. I for one expected that the hon the Minister was going to give us a comprehensive picture of how they were going to phase out the present system of health services and phase in a new system in which own affairs would be basic; in other words, in which a racially segregated or a racially based system of health services must be provided. However, the hon the Minister spoke for a great deal of time, and at one stage set out, in almost the same words we used four or five years ago, the PFP’s health policy, and for that we thank him. The more they accept the policies of the PFP, the better for South Africa and the happier we will be. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister then devoted approximately one minute to the new dispensation, and he was extremely careful to say very little. What he did say, however, was that those who expect the Government to apply CP policy must realize that it cannot be done. He then totally negated the provisions of the new constitution because he said that where there was a hospital where provision for Coloured and Indians and Whites exists such hospital can obviously not be divided into sections and then be placed under the control of the different chambers of the new Parliament. However, the hon the Minister should have pointed out these things at the time the new constitution was being debated. He did not do so, however. At that time he pleaded for the concept of own affairs in health matters. If he goes back to the debate on the constitution, he will see how ridiculous it was at the time and how totally incapable of implementation in practice it is at this stage. I think the Government is now realizing that they could never implement this dog’s breakfast which they thought up as a constitution. Let me read section 14:

Now let us look at these things which specially and differentially are needed to uphold culture, etc. Firstly, health matters comprise the following: Hospitals, clinics and similar or related institutions; medical services at schools or for indigent persons, health and nutritional guidance and the registration of and control over private hospitals. These things, according to the Government, are necessary specially and differentially to maintain our identity and uphold and further the way of life of the groups, their culture, traditions and customs.

Mr Chairman, I was hoping that the hon the Minister would explain to us how he was going to create hospitals, clinics and the vast range of medical services needed in South Africa. I was hoping that he would tell us how he was going to classify them, to segregate them and place them under the control of the various chambers of Parliament that are going to be created. Instead of that, the hon the Minister very neatly sidestepped the whole question, and today after he has spoken, we are now no nearer a picture of how this is going to happen than we were before. It is after all only three months before the new dispensation comes into practice, and it is high time that the hon the Minister and the Government tell us what South Africa is going to look like in terms of health services in particular, when that new dispensation comes about. Are we going to have a Minister of Health for general health services? Are we going to have a Minister of Health for Coloured health services and a Minister of Health for Indian health services and a Minister of Health for Black health services? These Ministers will be under the control of the chambers for the Whites, Coloureds and Indians and the Blacks will have no say over them whatsoever. Will each of these Ministers have his own department and his own bureaucracy, his own hospitals, clinics, doctors, nurses and a system of distributing medicines? When you start attempting to analyse how the new system will operate in the field of health, you realize that it is completely impractical and that is going to be a vastly expensive system. I would like to say to the hon the Minister that the time has come for us to make an appeal to him, if at all possible, to drop the concept of own health services. Nobody in the Coloured or Indian communities supports the concept of own health services. Very few people can be found outside the NP, the CP, the HNP, the Volkswag and the AWB who support own health services. Very few people support this crazy concept. If it cannot be dropped, we appeal to the hon the Minister to evolve a system of general health services and to have very few own health services. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, amongst other things the hon member for Bryanston referred to the population explosion and said that he felt that some men were not doing their bit. I am of the opposite opinion and feel that in respect of some men it is not a question of too little, but of too much.

*The hon member for Parktown spoke about pharmacists who should be permitted to advertise so that people will know where they can purchase the cheapest medicine. I should like to ask him whether he means that doctors can also advertise.

Yes.

I think that is a little far-fetched. Must one sit with the Sunday Times and Rapport on a Sunday to decide whether say, Barnard or Van Rensburg can perform the cheapest heart operation, or whatever? The question of advertising is really too much of a far-fetched idea.

The hon member for Meyerton said some very fine things about general practitioners and the department, and I want to thank him for that. I think what he said was very fitting, and we who were also involved in driving around at night appreciate it. Nowadays “doctor bashing” has become a national sport. It therefore does us good to hear words like those spoken by the hon member. He also referred to the department as the Department of Health and Welfare and Life.

He pointed to the importance of the department. It would be a futile exercise and a waste of time if we tried to tell one another which department is the most important. He did not do so, but he referred to the Department of Water Affairs. For example, we could say that defence is the most important, since our country would be lost without the Defence Force. However, we could also say that agriculture is the most important, since if there is no food, our country would also be ruined. In the same vein one could refer to the Departments of Law and Order, Constitutional Development and Planning and Water Affairs. I therefore do not want to say today that the Department of Health and Welfare is the most important, since that would be futile.

Practically every hon member who has spoken thus far has referred to the question of the population explosion, the population development programme and the report of the President’s Council. The population development programme is being carried out under the auspices of the Department of Health and Welfare. Since we are speaking of importance, I should like to emphasize this, and then I will leave the subject at that, that if we do not succeed with this population development programme, we will be done for anyway, and the importance of any other department will no longer be of any consequence.

†I would like to quote from page 229 of the report of the President’s Council, as follows:

Further on one reads:

*I just want to emphasize this once again so that there will be no misunderstanding. Talking about misunderstandings, I was told that when the Department of Medicine at the University of Stellenbosch celebrated its 25th anniversary, a professor told the story about when the faculty was still at the Karl Bremer Hospital—that was the age of Mary Quant and the mini’s—and the nurses’ uniforms were so short, no doctor, patient or nurse complained, but of course the matron did. She was very upset and told the typist to compile and distribute a notice to the effect that uniforms should be no shorter than four inches above the knee-cap or patella. The typist then typed the notice and in the end the notice stated that no uniform should be more than four inches above the “pasella”. [Interjections.] A great deal is being said about that report of the President’s Council. Every speaker refers to it. Yet one is afraid that people could still be under the misapprehension that this matter is not that important. However, this matter is a great deal more important than both the “pasella” and the patella.

When a person is chosen as mayor, one usually finds that that mayor announces his theme for the year. The Minister of Health and Welfare is not only appointed for one year—he has already held that office for longer than that—and if I were to judge what his theme is and how he sees his task, it would seem to me that apart from all the other things I have mentioned, he sees it as his major task and calling to bring health services within everyone’s reach.

†Only seven days ago the hon the Minister opened the annual congress in Bloemfontein of the Pharmaceutical Society and in his speech there he identified the primary aims and objectives for the whole medical team. Regarding the question of containing medical costs—this does not merely concern the cost of medicine, but the cost of health services as a whole—he said:

*As I have said, it seems to me that the hon the Minister sees it as his calling to keep medical costs within everyone’s reach. If one sees the question of medical costs in its entirety, one realizes that it is a tremendous task. We are inclined to speak on the one hand only of medical costs. This in itself is a very important subject, and if time permits, I shall quote statistics in that regard. However, I want to emphasize that we must look at the total expense. This concerns hospitalization, the building of hospitals, the training of medical practitioners and the prevention of diseases, which is perhaps the best solution. This, therefore, is the one danger I foresee. We should not simply concentrate on the cost of medicine. The other danger— and I address this to everyone in this House—is that politicians are perhaps too ampt to say to their voters: “The price of medicine is too high; I shall see to it that it is brought down”.

The other day when the hon member for Newton Park and I were dining together, he asked: “Why is medicine so expensive? Why is the price of medicine so high?” I then said to him. “I can answer that question very easily. First just tell me why everything else is so expensive.”

The provincial authority in the Cape Province increased its hospital tariffs by 50% this year. In the Transvaal it now costs R50 per day for patients in a particular category. A consultation with a medical practitioner at his consulting rooms costs R8,80 at present. However, if the same patient goes to the Krugersdorp Hospital, he has to pay R20. It is therefore a complicated system, and a complicated problem. If this problem cannot be easily dealt with by the State, we must not expect the private sector to do so. I think the doctors, the pharmacists, the department and the private sector, as well as the nurses and all those involved, should work together as a team in order to accomplish this.

I have certain expectations of the Browne Commission in this regard. However, I do not know precisely what the Browne Commission is going to come up with. I have here with me the report of the Snyman Commission, which investigated the high cost of medical services, as well as the report of the commission which investigated the pharmaceutical industry. I therefore wonder whether the time has not come—once the report of the Browne Commission has appeared—to bring all the members of this Particular team together at a congress or seminar, for example, so that they can make a joint effort. If a complete joint effort is not made now, we are simply not going to succeed in combating the high cost of medical services. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member Dr Vilonel must forgive me if I do not take his arguments any further. I should like to take this opportunity of conveying my congratulations to the Director-General of the department for the fine annual report we have here. I also want to congratulate the Deputy Directors-General who are present here today, and also convey my congratulations to all the officials of the department on the work they do. It is indeed an impressive annual report we received this year; a report to which, I believe, we shall be referring frequently in future.

The Department of Health and Welfare is a very important department, because it deals with the health of a people. This department deals, as it were, with the health of every inhabitant of this country. That is why it is also the duty of every person in the country to look after his own state of health in order to ensure that as few man-hours as possible are lost in this regard.

A particular problem we are, however, faced with in this department, is that of the aged. They are the ones who are now in the most difficult period of their lives, particularly because they no longer enjoy the good health of their younger days, and because they are also not always able to consult a doctor when they need to. Of course, the aged living in old-age homes are classified in another category entirely because there are people there who can look after them properly. As a matter of fact, I know that most of the aged living in old-age homes receive good medical care. I suppose there are a few people here and there who could complain. In general, however, I think that the medical care is quite good.

Of course it is also true that our senior citizens are the people whose state of health most needs attention today. The most important reason for this is, of course, that so many of them do not have the necessary mobility. The senior citizens of our country are those people who, at one time, were at the forefront in this country of ours. That was before most of us were even born. Some of us were young children then. Those people played a very important role in the family circle in days gone by. They also played an important role in serving their fellow man. In their time they also took care of the aged. They were also the ones who played their part in the defence of our country. They also include women who cared for and educated their children with the greatest possible empathy and gave their families everything their finances permitted. Many of them were not well-off, but in those difficult times they saw to it that their children’s clothes were darned and clean. They patched the family’s clothing. Nowadays one hardly ever sees any patching. In the past, however, it was a common sight. They were also possibly the ones who had to work for a living in the bowels of the earth, people who worked and toiled in the mines to provide their families with the money they earned the hard way. Most of them, however, did their duty. They were possibly also farmers who worked hard in times of depression and under difficult conditions, who faced droughts, who in earlier years had to face periods of economic depression and who today need medical care. They were also possibly teachers who worked hard day after day in front of a class drumming knowledge into the children’s heads and who had to work far into the night preparing the work for the following day. They were possibly also nurses who worked in the hospitals looking after their patients. The people we are dealing with today were probably people from every walk of life. They were probably also people who served in every facet of the public service, people who were once young and did good work for this country.

It should therefore be a privilege for us to look after the needs of those people today. It is also a privilege for me to speak on behalf of those people in this highest chamber in the country. Those senior citizens did not all have the same ability, nor did they all have the same opportunities in life. Each of them, however, left his mark when he was still working. We in this Committee should therefore consider it a privilege to take up the cudgels for them. After all, they sometimes lived through difficult times, for example periods of economic depression and inflation and drought.

Unfortunately at the moment we are faced by the same problems, namely a depression, inflation and drought conditions simultaneously excercising a stanglehold on the country and its population. Nowadays the breadwinner can barely earn enough to support the family, and his wife therefore has to work too. The State needs the services of those women, but there can also be social conditions which make things difficult at home. Because mothers also have to work, child-care may suffer. One cannot want one’s bread buttered on both sides. Childcare is also very important in the times in which we are living. These are all circumstances that cannot be overlooked.

There is something which, though very unfortunate, is nevertheless true, namely that a couple can bring up and care for five children to the best of their ability, but that when those five children have grown up not one of them is able to look after his parents. Fortunately this is the exception and not the rule. Economic conditions play a role.

In my constituency there lives a certain Mr Hein Piater and his good wife, and Mr Piater recently celebrated his 106th birthday. His wife is 100 years old. This is their first marriage, which has lasted for 60 to 70 years. They are probably the oldest couple in South Africa. If one were to ask Mr Piater to what he ascribed his great age he would probably say that it is thanks to hard work and clean living. They are commendable people.

Today I should like to thank the Department of Community Development and the Department of Health and Welfare, for making possible the construction of the old-age home at Dunnottar. I also want to convey my personal thanks to the hon the Deputy Minister of Welfare and of Community Development who visited the site with me at the time. The home is already under construction and should be completed within the next year. It will accommodate 36 single persons in flats or double that number if the husband and wife are still alive. Nowadays there are also many marriages taking place in old age homes. It would seem that one is never too old to get married. Those people receive hospital treatment in the homes they are living in, and we are also glad that as far as possible those people receive good hospital treatment.

While I am talking about hospitals, let me say that I would really appreciate it if the hon the Minister could tell us whether hospital boards would be own or general affairs under the new dispensation. We are not certain what the position will be.

I now come to the question of pensions. Pensions have a great deal to do with the health of a people, and this applies to the aged in particular. As several hon members have already said, as is the case with virtually everything, medicine has become extremely expensive. For that reason I am grateful that the hon the Minister of Finance announced, on 28 March 1984, that pensions were to be increased. As far as social pensions and allowances are concerned, I want to request the hon the Minister to ask the hon the Minister of Finance, if at all possible, to make the increased allowances available to the relevant persons from 1 July, when the general sales tax is to be increased to 10%, even though they are only supposed to be made available on 1 October. Perhaps it would be possible to grant this request. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I shall not react to the speech made by the hon member for Nigel. He spoke about marriages, welfare and other commendable things, but I shall not elaborate any further on what he said.

I actually want to talk about the new task which the hon the Minister and his department took upon themselves with effect from 1 April, namely the occupational disease dispensation. But first of all I want to react briefly to what the hon member Dr Vilonel said about medical costs. The hon member said that hon members should not tell their voters that medical costs or the cost of health services would be reduced. I do not want to comment on that standpoint, but what I do want to say in this connection is that the efforts of the hon the Minister to adopt measures in order to reduce the costs have definitely been commendable. I hope that the parties concerned will accord him the necessary co-operation so that he can succeed in this ideal which he has set himself, for whatever the merits of the case may be and whatever factors play a role, the fact remains that we as representatives do ascertain from our voters from time to time that they are finding it very difficult to make ends meet. This applies in particular to people with chronic illnesses who constantly have to buy medication, and so on. They are worried about the situation. Consequently I hope that the interest groups intimately involved in this matter will accord the hon the Minister the necessary co-operation. I do not think that anyone needs to suffer any serious harm in this process. If they co-operate and matters are planned and implemented in a judicious way, it is possible to achieve what the hon the Minister envisages.

I want to refer to the so-called Nieuwenhuizen report dealing with occupational diseases. I want to make the statement that every country that appreciates the value of its work force, will purposefully endeavour to further its welfare by creating acceptable working conditions which ensure safety and in which the causes of occupational diseases are controlled as far as is humanly possible. If workers do contract occupational diseases, or suffer from ill-health as a result of their working conditions, everything possible should be done to support them. The Government has, in fact, demonstrated its interest and concern by appointing the Nieuwenhuizen Commission to inquire into occupational diseases in mines and works. The principal recommendations were accepted by the Government and this will undoubtedly be to the benefit of everyone concerned. The legislation that makes provision for this matter is the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Act, an Act which has since 1 April 1984 been administered by the Department of Health and Welfare. This is a very important step forward, in that this matter is now being dealt with by the right department and can receive the necessary attention there.

The report of the Nieuwenhuizen Commission is a comprehensive one, and in the nature of things, with the limited time at my disposal, I can only touch upon its most important aspects. The commission recommends, in regard to organizational arrangements, that compensation for occupational diseases should be put on a uniform basis, in other words a single occupational disease dispensation should be created on a national basis. However, it is not acceptable to the persons and bodies concerned that the principles of the Workmen’s Compensation Act should be applied in regard to compensation. We are not in favour of this because if these principles were made applicable to mineworkers, they would be deprived of certain existing statutory rights.

Prior to the present dispensation, matters pertaining to occupational diseases were for historical and practical reasons dealt with on a sectional basis, with the resultant difference in approach in respect of the various workers’ groups. Consequently, there are different standards of certification and preventive measures. There are also differences in respect of the compensation payable in terms of the various laws.

Occupational diseases, in contrast to injuries and accidents occurring in a work context, cannot be lumped into one category. An occupational disease is frequently a progressive pathological condition that is associated with a gradual curtailment of the worker’s productive working life and life expectancy. An injury under the Workmen’s Compensation Act, on the other hand, may result in a physical injury, for example a broken bone, that can be diagnosed far more easily. The diagnostic techniques for occupational diseases and accidents differ. The medical certification body is the organization which determines the degree or percentage of harm done to the health of the worker and the compensation accordingly prescribed by the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Act. This is done by the Medical Bureau for Occupational Diseases.

I want to refer briefly to the Government’s decisions with reference to the Nieuwenhuizen Commission report, and I quote:

This has already been done. I quote further:

Further arrangements will be considered on an interdepartmental basis on condition that beneficiaries may not receive less under the national dispensation than they are entitled to in terms of existing legislation. I am convinced that the new dispensation is a step forward that is welcomed by everyone because it is conducive to the welfare of the workers in this country. A Government that deals with matters in such a positive and realistic way, proves that it takes an interest in the respective groups. I am convinced that it will lead to greater satisfaction and that there will also be greater confidence in the services being rendered to the workers by the respective organizations. In the past it frequently happened, particularly in the mining industry, that workers did not have the necessary confidence in the findings of these scientific bodies. In the nature of things it is not always easy to diagnose these diseases, particularly those affecting the air passage, correctly. It is a difficult task and sometimes there are doubts. This is apparent from the fact that it is frequently established from Post mortem examinations that the patient had, in fact, been suffering from an occupational disease, a fact which could not previously be ascertained. I think that this new dispensation will also be conducive to instilling the necessary confidence in workers, in that they will know that their case will in fact receive the necessary attention from the Minister of Health and Welfare.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Welkom dealt with a matter relating to his constituency in particular. It was interesting to hear reference being made to the Nieuwenhuizen Report, which was published some years ago. However, I shall not react any further to the hon member’s speech.

†I first of all want to congratulate the hon the Minister’s department, particularly the Director General on the fact that Medunsa’s first graduates have graduated this year. The hon member for Pinelands also mentioned that in the discussion of the National Education Vote. I am sure it will be an important development in the future of the country’s health that Medunsa—the Medical University of South Africa, which, curiously enough, is neither medical, nor a university, nor of Southern Africa—has produced its first graduates. That is a pleasing development.

It is my privilege to serve on the board of the Midlands Hospital, one of the largest mental hospitals in South Africa. In fact, it has three separate hospitals under its control. There have been some important improvements by the hon the Minister’s department at the Townhill Hospital and at the Umgeni Waterfall Institution. However, at Fort Napier there is still plenty of room for improvement. Fort Napier admits acute and certified patients, patients for observation, and also State President’s patients. It has problems with numbers. One of the problems it has is that by law it must accept all certified patients. I know that that hospital, as well as other hospitals in South Africa, has the problem that sometimes district surgeons—not all of them, but some—certify people without fully investigating the circumstances. I am aware that the department has endeavoured to improve that situation and that it has also circularized district surgeons on this matter. Furthermore, the hospital doctors have endeavoured to encourage more local interest in psychiatric and mental problems so that local hospitals in small and larger towns have been encouraged to develop psychiatric services. Just as the hon the Minister was talking about day hospitals for medical cases so there is a sense in which one can obviate the pressure of patients on major mental hospitals by educating staff of hospitals in smaller towns. That has assisted the hospital. However, there is still a serious problem of accommodation.

In 1981-82 the bed state in the Black section of that hospital was some 420, while there were between 500 and 567 patients. I do not want to create a bad picture of that hospital. As a member of the board of the hospital it is my right to go into that hospital, obviously after mentioning the fact to the superintendent. I can assure the hon the Minister that if he were to visit some of the wards in the Black section—I am not talking of the Indian and the Coloured sections—at Fort Napier Hospital, he would be shocked to see the facilities there. I understand that here may be plans for improvement, and I want to urge the hon the Minister to expedite improvements at that hospital.

The Indian and Coloured section has had a bed state of approximately 177 and approximately 200 patients. This has resulted in the readmission factor increasing at that hospital, and I think that that is a matter for concern to conscientious doctors.

The staff-patient ratio, which in terms of regulations for acute hospitals should be 1:2, is in fact overall 1:15 in these hospitals, and I believe that that is a serious problem. It has been somewhat relieved because the department now allows the employment of Coloured registered nurses as well as nurse aides, and that has been of particular assistance to the Midlands Hospital overall.

There is also a problem with the ratio of male to female nurses, and there is a real shortage of registered nurses qualified to nurse mentally ill patients. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to find out all he can about this hospital as it serves a very important function. I know that there is going to be a big hospital built at the King George V Hospital—the hon the Minister mentioned that hospital in relation to its tuberculosis care—to provide facilities in Durban. At the moment there is only an out-patient clinic in Durban with some psychiatric wards in the provincial hospitals. However, the Midlands Hospital serves a vital function in Natal.

Finally, in relation to that hospital it is a matter of disappointment to me that the research department at that hospital was closed down a year or two ago. I do not know for what reason it was closed, but I believe that that hospital must present a unique research opportunity in South Africa. It serves all our racial groups; it deals with Black. White, Coloured. Indian and particularly Zulu people. It has a university in the town and the people of Pietermaritzburg are very sympathetic to those hospitals. There is a very good clinic in the centre of the town, and the hospitals are looked after as part of the life of Pietermaritzburg. I should therefore like to urge the hon the Minister to encourage the doctors there to reactivate the research function at that hospital in so far as it is possible from his side.

Then I want to deal with another matter in Pietermaritzburg which I dealt with briefly under the Minister of Co-operation and Development’s Vote. I was very pleased to learn from the hon the Deputy Minister of Co-operation and Development that the administration of health matters are now handled between the State Health Department and kwaZulu. It is no longer channelled through the Department of Co-operation and Development, and in my opinion that is a very healthy situation.

We in Pietermaritzburg are very worried about the Edendale Hospital. Apparently the standards are on a downward trend. There have been a lot of difficulties, some of them beyond the control of the department, and I am not necessarily suggesting that it is the department’s fault. This is a very important hospital; as a matter of fact it is the third largest hospital in South Africa and also a teaching hospital, and we believe that it should not be allowed to deteriorate. Last week this report appeared in The Natal Witness:

I believe that that is a serious situation when a major, important hospital has to give 12 of its 14 doctors off to go and attend to that sort of situation.

I must apologize for this fruit-salad type of speech which I am presenting, but earlier in the session, I asked some questions about laparoscopies. The University of Pretoria has a unit doing sterilizations with laparoscopes and in the last 15 months they have done an average of 147 sterilizations per month. In Koster, in the Western Transvaal, they did 49 sterilizations on one day, and in Zeerust, over two days, they did 92. The hon the Minister knows from the reply to that question that there are thousands of women wanting to be sterilized who cannot be sterilized. I am aware, and the hon the Minister even more so, that this is a highly skilled operation, that the abdomen is penetrated and that only the most skilled personnel should be used. However, I believe that if the University of Pretoria can have a unit which can move around doing sterilizations at this sort of rate, something more could be done by the department in this respect. Perhaps gynaecologists in the larger country towns could be trained and paid to do laparoscopic sterilizations.

Finally, I would like to commend the department for the excellent statistics in Annexure 44 relating to the Abortion and Sterilization Act. I believe that the figure in this annexure giving the total number of operations for the removal of the residues of a pregnancy is the most important statistic, because if we are going to face up to the problems of an abortion and unwanted pregnancies, we need to have statistics like this. It is quite clear that in this country, despite the kind of propaganda we get from both sides for and against the abortion issue, that there are not the number of abortions in this country warranting the sort of figures used. About 33 000 abortions of which many are miscarriages and not abortions seems a reliable figure. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member will pardon me if I do not pursue his argument.

I should like to devote my speech to the position of elderly people in our society and express the concern I feel about certain aspects that affect these people.

Improved living conditions and medical services have led to a considerable extension of human life expectancy. This has resulted in an increase in the number of elderly people in the population who have to depend on assistance and protection from the community. Elderly people, in exactly the same way as adults and juveniles, are not all capable of adapting to their altered circumstances and of accepting those circumstances. They experience problems which they usually are unable to solve themselves. The solution to the vast majority of problems with which elderly people are confronted definitely does not lie in the building of old-age homes. Elderly people form an integral part of society and it should be made possible for them to remain within the community for as long as possible as self-sufficient, independent citizens.

As they grow older many changes occur in elderly people. These changes are experienced in all spheres of life, but particularly in respect of the physical, mental, religious and social aspects of their lives. Adaptation is essential, but for the most part the elderly person is not capable of tackling this problem alone. Shifts of emphasis occur in the orientation of the elderly person to the future, because the life of such a person and particularly his relationships with others have to be organized in a different way. Sometimes this leads to elderly people experiencing a feeling of uselessness, which is aggravated when their circle of friends diminishes. If their circumstances necessitate a change of abode, this is considered to be a drastic uprooting process. In this way the range of interests of an elderly person is inevitably narrowed. It goes without saying that old-age is accompanied by physical and mental deterioration. As a result of this, family members also show an unwillingness to accept an infirm elderly person. Such an infirm elderly person upsets the routine of their family life. Financial worries and the feeling that they can no longer be of any use to anyone, leads to a general withdrawal and a cutting off of contacts with their fellow men on the part of the aged. A feeling of fear is also generated in them, for example a fear of physical infirmities such as deafness, blindness and reduced mobility.

As a result of the problems and needs which I have enumerated, problems which the elderly people cannot cope with themselves, we must now accept that at this stage a team of experts have a very important part to play. I am thinking here of the medical practitioner, the nurse, the physiotherapist, the social worker, the psychologist and the clergyman who must all combine their respective capabilities.

The programme in connection with elderly persons has three components: Services in the community for the aged; special housing for the aged; and institutional care of the aged. We must remember that the need of the elderly person remains the same regardless of whether he is living in his own home, or is boarding with his children, family or friends, or whether he is living in special housing for the aged or in a home for the aged. Various areas of service exist, and ought to be expanded. I am thinking here of the meals-on-wheels services provided by churches and welfare organizations, visiting services to wherever elderly persons may be living, laundry services, domestic help services, transportation services, home nursing, nutritional services, district nursing services, health services and physiotheraputic and occupational therapeutic services. The provision of these services to elderly persons while they are still living in the community is very important and will alleviate the pressure on homes for the aged. When elderly people are living alone in the community, they tend to neglect their own health. It is in such cases that preventive medical services are essential.

In South Africa there are approximately a quarter million Whites over the age of 65 years. Approximately 8,3% of them are living in homes for the aged. This is the highest figure in the world. For the USA the figure is 2,8%, for Belgium 3,2%, for Canada 3,9% and for England 1,8%. Let us look at the position in Israel. When Israel came into existence approximately 36 years ago, the population consisted primarily of young and middle-aged people. Nevertheless the country upheld the splendid and time-honoured Jewish tradition of honouring and caring for the elderly members of the community. Honour your father and your mother is a commandment which the Jews faithfully observe throughout the world. When the Tel Aviv municipality recently tried to curtail the services rendered to the aged in order to balance its budget, there was almost rioting in the streets. The decision was very quickly rescinded.

A projection was made on the basis of the 1980 census of which cognizance should be taken with a view to the long-term policy in respect of the aged. In this connection I want to point out the following: In 1980 the elderly White population of the RSA totalled 356 260; in the year 2020 it will be 794 020. This is an expected increase of 161% over a period of 40 years.

Taking all these things into consideration, I want to emphasize that the problem in connection with care of the aged in the community can only be dealt with by means of a team effort by the community as a whole, including the local authorities, welfare organizations, service organizations, the church and the State. We should never think of our elderly people as a burden on society.

This afternoon I should like to make a very serious appeal to the hon the Minister to give the necessary attention to the matter of the provision of hospital beds in the RSA. From inquiries which I made, it appeared that hospital bed occupation in the RSA was at present 53,72%. I want to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister to give attention to placing more beds in our provincial hospitals at the disposal of our elderly people. The beds are there. They have been paid for and in this respect we would be doing something that would greatly assist those people who are responsible for the care of our elderly people. I should like to point out that at present there are 1 876 hospital bed are, they would be startled. The cost while there are a further 816 beds that have not yet been made available for use. This gives us a total of 2 692 beds which are not being used. If I were to tell hon members what the costs in connection with such a hospital bed are, they will be startled. The cost per bed in a community hospital amounts to R68 000. In a regional hospital the cost per bed amounts to R80 000, and in an academic hospital the cost of a bed is R158 000. I am merely mentioning these figures for the sake of interest.

At present the Groote Schuur Hospital is being enlarged. The cost for a single bed in the new section of the hospital will amount to R400 000. In spite of everything I have just said, it seems that a private organization sees its way clear to building 20 new hospitals in the Republic, at a total cost of R200 million. I think that serious attention ought to be given to this matter. It is also a sphere in which I think the State and the private sector should definitely co-operate in the interests of our sick people in the Republic of South Africa.

The hon the Minister must not reproach me if I am being critical. I feel that this is a serious matter, and that it deserves the urgent attention of the hon the Minister himself.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Witbank will excuse me if I do not follow directly on his speech. I do, however, have a specific matter which I want to raise with the hon the Minister in the very limited time at my disposal.

I serve on the board of the Kowie Hospital, which is a Black psychiatric hospital situated at Port Alfred. It is regarded by the town authorities as a most important facility, not only on account of the humanitarian service which that hospital provides, but also because it provides some 200 much needed job opportunities and also carries an annual budget of approximately R1,6 million. As a member of the board, I was therefore shocked to read in the newspaper one morning that that hospital was to be closed. No prior warning had been given, and there had, to my knowledge, been no consultation with the board, of which I happen to be a member.

I was not the only person, however, who was shocked. I was almost immediately inundated with calls from people who demanded to know what was going on. I therefore placed a question on the Question Paper and was subsequently told by the hon the Minister that the hospital was to be closed at the request of leaders of the Port Alfred community owing to its inadequate sewerage system.

This allegation was immediately denied by the Port Alfred municipal council, who revealed that all that was indeed needed was to build larger conservation tanks in order to improve the sewerage system.

It was not only the town council of Port Alfred that was opposed to the closure of the hospital. I also received representations from the Port Alfred Chamber of Commerce, the Ratepayers’ and Residents’ Association of Port Alfred, the fraternity of churches, the Albany and Bathurst Farmers’ League, the Friends of the Kowie Hospital Association and from SEADA. This means that the civic, commercial, religious, residential and agricultural leaders of the community are all opposed to the closure of the hospital. Who then could the leaders be to whom the hon the Minister was referring?

I subsequently put a supplementary question to the hon the Minister but he declined to answer. On the same day on which I put that question to the hon the Minister a spokesman for his department provided an answer in the Daily Despatch. According to that spokesman political pressure to close the hospital had been brought to bear on his department over the last few years. Now the hon the Minister himself has made an appeal in this House to keep politics out of health affairs, and I want to place on record that it was not the PFP that was responsible for this pressure, nor, as far as I am aware, was it the NRP. Therefore it can only be the NP representatives themselves or those of the CP. If this is so, I call upon the hon the Minister, in terms of his own request here in this House, to repudiate those political leaders who have dragged politics into this matter. I also call on him to judge the case for closure—whatever that might be—upon its merits and not in terms of politics.

The hon the Minister has announced that he is to visit Port Alfred on Friday in order to investigate the matter at first hand. I welcome this news, and I know that the people of Port Alfred welcome it too. The leaders of various civic organizations there have all expressed the desire of meeting with the hon the Minister, and I trust that such a meeting will be possible. I trust that the meeting will be constructive and that it will lead to a satisfactory outcome; that is that this important facility for Port Alfred and for the entire community be retained.

Mr Chairman, the chiropractors’ profession has waged a struggle over the years to get their profession ordered and legal in South Africa. For those who make use of their services and who benefit from them it is important that their continued existence in South Africa be ensured. I therefore take the liberty to address this plea to the hon the Minister and his department.

In 1960, in the time of Dr Hertzog, a committee of inquiry was set up to investigate the chiropractors’ profession in South Africa. The finding and recommendation of the committee was not favourable, with the result that the matter was left at that for the next 11 years. In 1971, in the time of Dr Carel de Wet, the matter was again brought up, and the Act of 1971, which required the registration of chiropractors, was passed.

At that time chiropractors were concerned about the phenomenon that unqualified people were practising quackery in the name of the chiropractors’ profession, and the Act of 1971 enabled them to purify this profession. In the spirit of Dr De Wet’s encouragement that if the chiropractors could get their house in order they were welcome to make representations, the profession made their first attempt at purifying their profession, and 70 people who were not qualified to practise the profession were omitted from the new register.

In the time when Dr Schalk van der Merwe was Minister of Health, he requested that the two organizations, into which the chiropractors were divided, the Pan-African Chiropractic Association and the Chiropractic Association of South Africa, be united. As the second step in getting their houses in order, this request was acceded to, and the differences that existed in their own ranks were settled. Today all chiropractors belong to the Chiropractic Association of South Africa. Dr Van der Merwe also suggested that they submit a memorandum dealing with all the aspects of chiropractics as it had developed in South Africa up to that stage. This memorandum was submitted in the time when the present hon Minister of Posts and Telecommunications was the Minister of Health, and this can be regarded as the third step in getting the house of the chiropractors in order.

It is illuminating that an HSRC evaluation of the training of chiropractors found that the training entails matric plus six years, which determines that chiropractors have tertiary education. This memorandum gave rise to the promulgation of the Associated Health Service Professions Act, No 63 of 1982, which provides for the establishment of the South African Associated Health Service Professions Board. The ideal would be to incorporate the associated health service professions—ie the chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths, herbalists etc—into the Medical Council. This would place the entire health family under one controlling body. Attempts have been made to do so, but unfortunately the Medical Council decided against it by a vote of 17 to 16. The South African Associated Health Service Professions Board went on to order the professions by taking the following steps in particular: Firstly, to define the profession and to determine which services the various professions may render; secondly, by announcing ethical codes of conduct which would be applicable to the various professions; thirdly, to determine the conduct of practitioners; and fourthly, to determine future standards of training for the professions.

The submission before the hon the Minster at present in which the South African Associated Health Services Board asks firstly, that the register for chiropractors and homeopaths be opened once again and secondly, that the minimum standards of training that have to be complied with by future practitioners be taken up in the Act, impresses one with the correctness and thoroughness of its preparation and leaves no doubt that the board has progressed sufficiently in a very short time so as to be able to ask that the register be opened.

The proposed curriculum for future training and the fact that university training will be available in South Africa, leaves no doubt that the training of chiropractors will be of a high standard, scientifically speaking: Matriculation plus six years’ training and a bachelor’s degree in chiropractics.

The closed register is having a detrimental effect on the profession. Apart from the fact that the profession is dying a slow death, the quality of treatment will decline as a result of too great a demand for chiropractic services and too little time spent on patients. Out of the approximately 102 chiropractors on the register—it is interesting to note that there were 165 in 1971; and 102 in 1983— only approximately 80 are practising today, whilst the others have retired and are no longer active. As a result of the tremendous demand for chiropractic services in South Africa, those who are not registered also get a great deal of work and as long as the register remains closed there will be increasingly more illegal practitioners in South Africa. To confirm that there is a large demand, we see the following result in the HSRC investigation: In reply to the question whether respondents had at some stage visited chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths or herbalists, it was found that 29,2% of the respondents had done so. One can then assume that almost 30% of people who seek medical help, visit chiropractors and the other groups to obtain it.

However, what is more important is that no university is prepared to introduce a chair for chiropractics before the register is opened. One can understand that a university would not incur those expenses before they are assured that the profession can continue to exist in South Africa. It is therefore imperative that the register be opened as soon as possible. I therefore make an urgent appeal that, if at all possible, the necessary legislation be introduced during the present Parliamentary session.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Swellendam will forgive me if I do not react to the arguments he has advanced, but we shall listen with great interest to the hon the Minister’s response to the whole question regarding the chiropractor.

For the past five years I have introduced a Bill into the House with the hope that Parliament would pass a law which would enable and oblige the tobacco companies to place the necessary warning “Smoke is dangerous to your health” on all packets of cigarettes; that nicotine and tar contents would be prominently displayed; that the Minister would have thi power to ban smoking in public places; that advertising would be controlled and would contain the necessary warnings; and that children under the age of 16 would be prohibited from purchasing cigarettes.

Three Ministers of Health have seen this on the Order Paper. I ask the hon the Minister whether he has any conscience at all about this Bill and whether he supports in principle the contents to which I have just referred. He has been making speeches which I think is sympathetic towards the cause. Yet there is no legislation, and I would like to know what the reason is. I want to ask the hon the Minister if there is a tobacco lobby in this House which prevents him from persuading his colleagues and his caucus to agree to this. I strongly suspect that the chief obstacle to this is the Government’s chief spokesman on health, the hon member for Brits, who represents a tobacco-growing area. Perhaps he is the spearhead of a tobacco lobby in this House. [Interjections.]

I have always maintained that should this Bill be introduced, there should be a free vote, and that is still my view. However, my colleagues in the PFP feel just as strongly about this matter. We have accordingly passed a resolution in the PFP caucus confirming that smoking is a health hazard and that legislation should be passed to warn the public of the dangers and to enforce manufacturers to prominently display the necessary warnings.

The voluntary action of tobacco companies to print the tar and nicotine content on packets is absolutely useless. It is illegible and indicates nothing to members of the public. No warning whatsoever is contained in it.

Basic factors resulting from smoking have been confirmed over and over again. The loss of earnings in South Africa due to hospitalization of smokers for bronchitis, ischaemic heart disease and cancer total R6 582 million each year. The loss of earnings in terms of people who die early due to smoking-induced diseases, total R226 million per year. Direct hospitalization, in other words the costs of treating smokers with ischaemic heart disease, bronchitis and cancer amounts R17 600 000 per year. These facts were stated in an article by Dr D Yach an article titled “Economic Aspects of Smoking in South Africa” which was recently released in Cape Town.

According to the Daily Dispatch of 10 April 1984 and The Citizen of the same date, the Surgeon-General of the United States that smoking causes an estimated 1 million premature deaths each year. These figures are contained in the latest South African Medical Journal’s editorial. According to the World Health Organization, in a report by Forbes and Thompson, it is stated that according to the American Cancer Society, the costs of medical and hospital bills due to cigarette-related illnesses was about $15 billion in 1975 and that the loss of income from lost work-days due to cigarette-related illnesses amounts to approximately $3 billion per annum. Balancing this against the revenue from tobacco products, the net loss is $6 billion per annum.

I know that we are up against vested interests. The State collects about R700 million per year in tobacco tax and there are of course profits to be made from tobacco companies. However, can this be measured against the harm which it is doing? I want to refer to page 10 of the Reader’s Digest of April 1984 and to the blatant advertising of Gunston cigarettes at Durban’s Bay of Plenty surfing competition. The sponsorship of R30 000 was worth R1,5 million in television advertising.

If smoking were to be introduced for the first time in the world today, it would be banned, as the hon member for Parktown also said. Certain facts have confirmed the harmful and dangerous effects of smoking.

In a paper submitted by Dr Benatar of the University of Cape Town, he states that more than 3 000 components of cigarette smoke have been identified. 90% of smoke is composed of a few gases which include carbon monoxide, hydrogen cyanide and nitrogen oxide. The carbon monoxide reduces the oxygen-carrying power of the blood and damages the walls of the blood-vessels, making them more susceptible to blockages with deposits of cholesterol. Hydrogen cyanide and nitrogen oxide damage the lining of the air ways and contributes to the development of chronic bronchitis and emphysema. Ten per cent of cigarette smoke is made up of particles, of which nicotine and tar are best known. Nicotine raises the blood pressure and increases the work of the heart and is the addictive component in tobacco. Tar contains chemical substances such as benzopyrene, which can cause cancer. It takes cancer approximately ten years to grow big enough to be seen on a chest X-ray. Of every 100 cases of lung cancer so diagnosed only 20 are suitable for operation. The other 80 have already spread too far for an operation to be performed. Of the 20 patients suitable for operation only six will survive five years.

Heart and blood vessel diseases are the leading causes of death in South Africa and cigarette smokers have twice the risk of dying from such diseases, and at an earlier age than non-smokers. Approximately 25% of all coronary heart diseases is directly attributable to cigarette smoking.

At the Anti-pollution Conference in Cape Town recently it was stated that one of the components of cigarettes was cadmium, of which a cigarette contained between, 01 and, 07 milligrams. This accelerates emphysema and bone softening. It was also emphasized that it contains benzopyrone, which is a known cause of cancer tumours. In the light of all this information I want to ask the hon the Minister, who is a medical man himself, how he can justify his standpoint in not bringing legislation.

I mentioned earlier that R25 million is spent on advertising. I believe the SABC has no right to allow the advertising of cigarettes. The worst offender is Springbok Radio. There must also be some type of curb on the nature of advertising, which portrays the smoker with an attractive, appealing personal image, implying an association between smoking and physical prowess, sexual attractiveness, success and good taste, and even patriotism, especially in some American advertisements.

For every adult that gives up smoking there are unfortunately two or three youngsters who take it up. We have to concentrate on information supplied to the young people of South Africa. I have no intention, and never intended, to stop people from smoking, but I do believe that legislation should be introduced to warn people of the dangers of smoking, to warn them of what they are letting themselves, and also others around them, in for. Even passive smoke has an effect upon people. The inhalation of other people’s smoke lowers the threshold for angina in patients with coronary artery diseases. This indicates that smokers are injuring not only themselves, but also non-smokers in their company. Patients with asthma or chronic lung diseases may find that their breathing is aggravated by other people’s smoke.

After the introduction of the by-laws to local authorities they were tested in the Supreme Court and upheld because legislators are entitled to legislate for the comfort and convenience of the public. It is done in many leading countries, for example Italy. The World Health Organization has confirmed that anti-smoking and health campaigns should be a major health priority all over the world. I want to know if the hon the Minister is doing this.

In conclusion, it is high time this Minister did something. It is high time the Government did something. As we are facing a stiff legislative program it may not be possible for the Government to place a Bill before Parliament this session, but I ask the Government to accept the legislation which I have on the Order Paper now in order that Parliament may debate and pass it. By doing that, time will be saved and Parliament will be doing something for the benefit and health of the people of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank hon members who have participated in the debate for the responsible way in which they did so. I want to say at once that owing to the limited time at my disposal I shall unfortunately not be able to reply to all the questions that were put to me. However, I now undertake to deal with the question of family planning and the population development programme tomorrow afternoon, when the debate is resumed.

As far as the conference on poverty is concerned, I do not think there is anyone in South Africa who will deny that poverty exists in this country. The findings of that conference may be of some use. This will depend, however, on whether they are interested in dealing with and evaluating the facts they now have at their disposal in a scientific way, or whether they want to use them for political purposes. The fact of the matter is, however, that there are a few things which one finds irksome. Quite a number of papers were presented at this conference, and most of them were concerned with health and poverty. In fact, there were no fewer than 40 papers dealing with those specific aspects. What struck one, however, was that the Department of Health and Welfare was not present at that conference. And that was not all, the department was asked, in a very friendly way, preferably not to attend. Strangely enough, the Medical Research Council, that also undertakes research into health and poverty, was not present at this conference either; nor was the CSIR.

If I have to judge from what I heard in this House today, the population explosion is one of the most important problems and causes of poverty, but strangely enough there was no mention of it at that conference. Yet there were frequent references to Bantustans, although I do not know where in South Africa one would still find an official Bantustan. Reference was also made to the so-called “Pretoria regime”, and I also do not know where in South Africa one would find a “Pretoria regime”. Moreover, it was resolved to distribute all the papers, regardless of whether or not they had been evaluated, and all the photographs that were available for distribution, to as many libraries as possible throughout the world. The question which now arises is whether these people wish to solve the problems of poverty in South Africa or whether they wish to achieve other objectives with what they are doing. I shall leave it at that, but I repeat: Whether something good can be born from this conference will depend on the scientific way in which the papers are evaluated, and in this case only time will tell.

†The hon member for Hillbrow made his usual speech about smoking.

Please do not give me your usual reply.

I do not blame him for that, as I am not a smoker myself. I used to smoke but I stopped. I have left no doubt whatsoever in regard to what my opinion is about smoking, and have stated my attitude on many occasions. I did so before a very eminent conference on cancer nursing in Pretoria; I have stated it here in this House, and I have stated it when I addressed nurses at the University of Cape Town.

Well, do something about it!

I must do something about it? Sir, I am not sure whether the smoking hazard can be remedied by law. I do not think so. I do not think it can ever be done. We have by way of an agreement with the tobacco companies and the Tobacco Board banned all tobacco advertisements on television. One does not see any advertisements on television …

You see them along the road to D F Malan.

I am talking about television now.

But one can see them.

One need only open a newspaper to see them. The hon member will simply have to go and discuss the matter with the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs. I am referring to television now. All I want to say to the hon member for Hillbrow is that I will speak out against smoking at every opportunity. I do this, and I did so again the other day at functions which the hon member may still hear about. I know as well as the hon member does that smoking is detrimental, and that is why I gave it up, but I am not convinced that the situation can be remedied by means of legislation. That is all I am saying.

†Those hon members are always complaining about the high-handed way in which the Government does things, but now they want to force people to do certain things. Why do they want to do that?

*As Minister of Health and Welfare I shall speak out against the smoking habit. Tobacco companies are not very fond of me, and they do not hesitate to tell me so. But now an accusation in connection with “vested interests” is being levelled at us, almost as if we are finding something now that will keep tobacco companies going.

†I do not think that is fair comment. One has to have a responsible attitude. It is not just a question of the revenue you receive from tobacco companies, but it is also a question of hundreds of thousands of people in South Africa involved in that industry in one way or another.

I do not want to stop them; just to warn them.

If the hon member does not want to stop them, what good would a law do?

It is a policy of one job, one death.

That is one of the most irresponsible remarks I have heard from anyone in this House before.

*The usual old PFP circus must always make a song and dance about any subject that may crop up. That is all I want to say about this matter today.

The hon member for Swellendam spoke about chiropractors. I must admit that the chiropractors did what my predecessors asked them to do. As the hon member for Swellendam pointed out, they submitted a possible curriculum to me according to which they wish to train people for their profession in South Africa. I submitted that curriculum to the Medical Council, and that body notified me that they had referred it to their Education Committee. This committee meets in June, and will then arrive at a decision in this regard.

I know I can do whatever I like and restore chiropractors to the register, but there is no sense in placing people in a position where they will again incur the disfavour of the entire medical community. In such a case one has surely not helped those people. The whole idea is to bring about a situation in which people can co-operate with one another. I am not one of those people who think that chiropractors have no place in the community. This does not mean that I think the basis on which they work is a very scientific one. I cannot get away from the fact, however, that a large number of people are very satisfied with the services they are receiving from these people.

We asked the members of this profession to set their own house in order so that whenever their services constitute a danger to the public, it can be eliminated. In this respect we must look at the entire situation again. As I have said, I approached the Medical Council in this connection. I may just point out to hon members who are perhaps not aware of this that, for the first three years, the curriculum which is now being proposed is basically precisely the same as the one for medical training. If a person has completed three years of medical training, I do not know whether he will decide to become a chiropractor or whether he will decide to become a medical practitioner. This is, however, a decision that others have to make, and I am not prepared to solve the matter for them by means of legislation.

I shall therefore react to that submission from the chiropractors which the hon member put forward—and I admit that he did so in a very responsible way—as soon as I have received some feedback from the Medical Council. I know there are people who say they are afraid that I will not receive any feedback from the Medical Council. However, I have always, whenever I referred something to them, received feedback from them and in some cases I was very pleased with it.

†The hon member for Albany spoke about Kowie Hospital. I have offered to go and have a look at the Kowie Hospital personally. I therefore do not know why the hon member was cross with me this afternoon.

*He is cross with me even at this stage, even before I have been there. Sitting in front of him is the hon member for Park-town. He and Di Bishop are the ones who brought back a report about the Kowie Hospital, a report which I cannot ignore.

After all, the hon member for Parktown is an important member. How can I simply ignore his reports? I just want to say to the hon member there is only one way of judging a hospital and that is on the basis of hospitalization. I cannot go and look at a hospital from the point of view of the employment it provides. I am, however, prepared to go there with an open mind. As the hon member said, he will be there himself too. He must just make sure that I get some coffee.

The hon member for Witbank made a lengthy plea for elderly people to be kept in the community for as long as possible. I shall not elaborate on that. I accept that the hon the Deputy Minister will elaborate on it tomorrow. The hon member also spoke about the large number of unoccupied beds in State hospital. I do not wish to dispute the hon member’s figures, but I just want to tell him that they can only refer to the position country-wide and that a large number of the beds will be in the rural areas. If elderly people are bedridden with illness, it creates problems if one has to move them from wherever they are in the country areas to, say, Cradock, in order to admit them to the hospital there. In regard to his reference to the costs involved in the provision of hospital beds, I also have problems with his view that the private sector can provide them more cheaply than the department. I will concede that this may be the case in some respects. In my introductory speech, however, I pointed out that fundamentally there were different kinds of hospitals. Now, it really is not fair to compare Groote Schuur Hospital with an ordinary hospital. By the way, hon members must take a look at what is happening there when they drive past. I wonder whether they are ever going to get that hospital out from under those huge cranes. How they are going to do it, I really do not know. [Interjections.] Consequently I think that we should try to establish whether it is not possible for us to build more economically. For that reason I said at the outset that I had appointed a commission of inquiry to reach a final decision on where additional medical faculties, if any, should be established. The hon member for South Coast made an impassioned plea for the establishment of another medical faculty for Whites somewhere in Natal. I appointed that commission of inquiry because, as I have said, I am being inundated by requests. Moreover, I am practically wading through all the promises that have been made in the course of so many years. Somewhere I must therefore find a scientific result. After that the Cabinet can decide what should be done. If they take the representations of the hon member for South Coast into consideration, I shall accept that.

†The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North referred to his own speech as a fruit-salad speech. I agree with him. It was indeed a fruit-salad speech, so much so that it will take me probably upwards of two days to reply to all his questions.

As far as Townhill, Umgeni and Fort Napier are concerned the policy of the department is to gradually improve those hospitals that can still be improved. As the hon member also said, Townhill Hospital has been improved, as has been the Umgeni Hospital. I do regret, however, to admit that I cannot tell the hon member what the exact position in relation to Fort Napier is at the moment. If it is possible to improve the Fort Napier Hospital …

It can indeed be improved.

… it will be done in the course of time. As far as the research activities are concerned the position is that those activities have been curtailed. This has been caused by the departure of the professor concerned. A new professor has since taken over, and it is therefore possible that research activities will be revived.

Edendale Hospital, as hon members know, falls under the jurisdiction of the kwaZulu Government. We can only render assistance to the Edendale Hospital should we be approached by the kwaZulu Government with a request to that effect.

As far as laparoscopies are concerned, I am also worried about the fact that more sterilizations cannot be carried out. There are certain sterilizations that can indeed be carried out, and I will give the figures in that regard to the hon member tomorrow. I am also worried, however, about the fact that we cannot increase the number of laparoscopic sterilizations, especially in the Transvaal. I do realize of course that it is a difficult task to convince women to opt for sterilization. Therefore I believe that once a woman has been convinced the sterilization should be carried out immediately. We will indeed have to look into that matter again very carefully.

The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North also spoke about abortions. It was the hon member for South Coast, I believe, who also spoke about abortions.

No, I did not.

Well, that was more or less the trend of the hon member’s speech. That was more or less what the hon member said.

No, I never referred to that.

All right then, I apologize. I must have misunderstood the hon member then, Mr Chairman. [Interjections.]

*The hon member for Welkom discussed the Nieuwenhuizen report, as well as the Medical Bureau for Occupational Diseases. As the hon member said, this bureau was transferred to the department with effect from the beginning of April, and the legislation is still being examined. In the White Paper there was a direction to the effect that the Medical Bureau for Occupational Diseases should be transferred to the Department of Health and Welfare, and that has been done. As the hon member correctly stated, the Workmen’s Compensation Commissioner and his activities remain the responsibility of the Department of Manpower. The legislation on occupational diseases and the compensation element have to be based on the agreements reached with the Mineworkers’ Union. They must serve as a basis for further investigation in future, and attempts must also be made to determine uniform compensation for the various occupational diseases. An interdepartmental commission of inquiry has already been appointed to determine, in a thorough way, the norms for uniform compensation in respect of occupational diseases. We have not received the recommendations of the commission yet, and therefore it will not be possible to pilot legislation in this connection through Parliament during the present year. I do hope, however, that we shall be able to do so next year.

The hon member for Nigel spoke with compassion about elderly people and about the fact that they were not being cared for by their children. He also expressed his gratitude to the hon the Deputy Minister of Welfare and of Community Development in respect of the home for the aged which is under construction in Dunnottar. I accept that the hon the Deputy Minister will discuss the matter further with the hon member tomorrow.

The hon member Dr Vilonel also referred to the question of the cost of medicine. He said that it should not only be based on one factor, but that it should be a team effort. I agree with the hon member that it should, in fact, be a team effort. What is involved, however, is not only medicine; one should also apply a team effort. Why did I begin with medicine? I did so in the first place because we have devised a system in regard to the provision of medical services in South Africa. There is the medical practitioner who writes out a prescription and who, in most cases, is unaware of what that medicine costs. There is also the patient who belongs to a medical aid, and that patient does not mind what the medicine costs because the medical aid has to pay for it. Then, too, there is the pharmacist who fit ds that it pays to prescribe the most expensive medicine because he makes a certain percentage profit on it. With those three elements involved in providing patients with medicines, we have truly created the possibility for prices to soar.

All we are trying to do now is to break that cycle. I have therefore requested the Medical Council—and I am very pleased that they agreed—to change the meaning of prescriptions in such a way that whereas before it was A, B or C, it is now A, B or C or its equivalent unless the doctor stipulates that he does not want a generic equivalent. A generic equivalent is a different medicine with precisely the same formula, but which is manufactured by another firm.

I also want to tell hon members that these medicines differ greatly from one another. The other day I mentioned the figures to hon members. I went to the pharmacist and asked him what a certain medicine cost. He told me it cost R7,40 for 30 tablets. For one that would have the same effect, an amount of R4,60 has to be paid for 30 tablets. The third one, however, although it, too, would have the same effect, costs R0,69 for 30 tablets. Consequently the one costs 10 times more than the other. All that I am trying to do with this requirement is to give the pharmacist an opportunity to dispense cheaper medicines. The problem I now have is what I should do with the pharmacist if he gives a person the cheaper medicine, but makes that person pay for the more expensive one. That is why I told them: “You must stop trading in medicine”. With that I meant: “Stop trading in disease”. I do not mean by that that a manufacturer may not make a profit on medicines. All I mean is that as soon as a medicine is prescribed for a specific patient, it is no longer a commercial commodity and people are paying for a professional service. That is all I am trying to do. Without any control, I am convinced that we can involve the free market system so that there can be some competition in the medicinal industry. I now want to predict that this is going to happen. South Africa will in that way save its patients millions of rands, and it will be in the interests of South African companies that manufacture medicines.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Mr Speaker, I move:

Mr Speaker, during the Third Reading debate we traditionally assess the likely consequences of the enactment of the Bill before us. In the case of this Bill it is not difficult to do so.

The measure makes it permissible for wine producers to adulterate their product with foreign flavours in order to make it more acceptable to consumers, and particularly to consumers with unsophisticated palates. This will have the effect of encouraging consumption, and that is the aim and object of the Bill. The increased consumption, in turn, will have the effect of reducing the current surplus stocks which have become an embarrassment to the industry.

The wine industry had two options open to it in order to deal with the surplus: Either they had to increase consumption or they had to cut back on production. There will doubtless be jubilation amongst the wine farmers because if the surplus caused by overproduction can be reduced by increasing consumption rather than by cutting back on production, they need suffer no financial loss, and this objective they will achieve. Whether there will be similar jubilation amongst those who will bear the brunt of the social consequences of increased alcohol consumption I am not so sure.

South Africa already has one of the highest rates of alcohol-related crimes in the world, and with increased consumption we can expect an increase in crimes like murder, rape, violence and drunken driving. Social workers can expect no relief in the number of problems with which they have to deal concerning alcohol abuse in divorce, child battering, desertion and the like—these will continue to flourish as well as to increase.

It is my personal conviction that it is wrong to encourage the consumption of alcohol, whether it be through advertisement or through adulteration. When the encouragement is deliberately aimed at unsophisticated palates, the deed is doubly reprehensible. I have no desire to be associated with this legislation, although doubtless I together with the rest of society, will have to share its consequences. I will therefore be voting against the Third Reading of the Bill.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Albany said that this product was meant for the unsophisticated consumer of liquor. I do not know where he obtained this information, since for many years the wine industry has prescribed to people what they should drink. During the last decade or two, however, it was realized that it was the industry’s task to ask the consumer what he wants, and this legislation is one of the results.

The wine to which reference is being made in this legislation is wine with an alcohol content of approximately one half of that of natural wine. The world trend is towards a light drink, and it is therefore only logical that one should concentrate on this demand of the consumer.

I want to refer to a point that was raised earlier in this debate and I really want to rectify the matter by adding to the point that was made. The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North referred to the 6,5% alcohol content of the wine and asked why a minimum and not a maximum content is being stipulated. It was then said that grapes with that sugar content are not ripe in any case, and that it is also very difficult to press grapes with that sugar content. What in fact happens is that such a wine is made by fermenting out ordinary wine from its 18° to 20° balling. When the wine has fermented out, reconstituted moskonfyt is added so that the alcohol content is decreased from, for example, 10,5% or 11% to 6,5%. It cannot be decreased any further, since one would then be making syrup. The sugar content of that wine is equal to the special late harvest type of wines. What is then added to these wines is purely natural, very mild flavouring.

This is a natural drink which meets the market demand and it has a very low alcohol content. I specially brought a sample for the hon member Prof Olivier and the hon member for Albany. I shall call it a “test tube baby”. I have two samples here and when the debate is over they can come and taste them, and I am sure that they will be pleasantly surprised. Granted, it is not the kind of wine I like, and possibly the hon members do not like it either, but there is a demand for it.

The hon member also asked why labels had to appear on containers up to and including 25 litres. I want to mention two important reasons for this. The first reason is that this change is being effected in order to correspond with other legislation which sets requirements with regard to labelling. As far as the size of the containers is concerned—I put this to him earlier, but he did not want to accept it—there is other legislation, for example, the Liquor Act of 1977. In broad outline, it provides that no producer, wine farmer or wine cellar can sell wine to a member of the public in a container larger than 5 litres. I would like the hon member to accept that.

I therefore take pleasure in supporting the Third Reading of this legislation. I should very much like the hon members to come and taste the samples I have here, since they will be pleasantly surprised.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Wellington repeatedly referred to the market demand for these products. I should like to ask him and the hon the Deputy Minister whether there have been any complaints about there being too few varieties of cooldrink on the market? Has anyone ever complained about the marketing of cooldrink being unsatisfactory? I also want to ask whether there have been any complaints about there being too few kinds of wine on the market. There was no indication during either the Second Reading, or the Committee Stage, of where the market demand is coming from. That is the first point I want to make.

The hon member for Wellington again spoke about the alcohol content of the “cooldrink wine”, the light wine. He spoke of an alcohol content of 6,5% and tried to make an excuse for it being so low. Two glasses of wine with an alcohol content of 6,5% contain just as much alcohol as one glass of wine with an alcohol content of 12%. [Interjections.] It is very interesting that the hon the Prime Minister asked me in a friendly way across the floor of the House during the Second Reading whether I was a teetotaller. No, I am not a teetotaller. I want to ask the hon the Deputy Minister, hon members of the NP, as well as hon members in my own party who support the legislation whether they want to make people drunk. I have listened very attentively to all the arguments, but no one has yet been able to explain to me what the true reason is for introducing this Bill, except to sell more wine. I can see no other reason for this Bill being before this House. It is simply to sell more wine. If more wine is sold, even if it has an alcohol content of 6,5%, there are going to be more drunk people and more alcoholics. We do not speak of “wine-oholics” or “brandyholics”, but of alcoholics. The cause of addiction is the alcohol. If more alcohol is sold and there are more alcoholics, there are going to be more motorcar accidents, more people are going to die, and there are going to be more socio-economic problems. I therefore ask myself whether all this is really worth it.

If one speaks to alcoholics, one finds that it does not matter in what form the alcohol is taken. Alcoholism is a disease. For example, many medicines contain alcohol as a preservative. A former alcoholic who has not consumed alcohol for six or ten years can again fall prey to alcoholism if he uses this medicine. We are all familiar with the consequences of alcoholism. Alcoholism is recognized as the greatest social problem in South Africa. Consequently, I cannot understand, given our socio-economic problems and a group of people who take refuge in alcohol because of their problems, why we are bringing a Bill of this nature before this House whereby people are being encouraged to drink more wine, which will give rise to more drunkenness and more alcoholism. I therefore agree with the hon member for Albany, and consequently, I cannot support this legislation.

Mr Speaker, tonight we come to the end of the annual spate of liquor legislation that is discussed in this House. As usual, one finds it difficult to come up with something new at this stage. With respect, the hon member for Albany and the hon member for Parktown—they are both friendly, courteous hon members— could just as well have remained seated. It would not have made any difference, since they made no real contribution to the debate.

The theme running through all debates on liquor is the danger of overindulgence. It also always becomes apparent that a prohibition on the sale of alcoholic beverages will not solve the problem. As far as I know, there was not a single hon member in the House who pleaded for a complete ban this year either; neither the hon member for Albany, nor the hon member for Parktown, nor hon members who spoke before them on that side. It becomes apparent from all the debates, and I think we should learn this lesson once and for all, that, for example, guidance and education are the methods that should be used to approach this problem. It is generally accepted that this produces the best results.

Furthermore, it appears that the most purposeful guidance and education with a view to the balanced, healthy use of alcohol should be conducted by the liquor industry itself. Of course, there are other organizations outside politics that are doing excellent work in this regard, but the politicians who are always making a fuss about the evils of the abuse of liquor usually do no more than that, and conduct of that nature will get us nowhere. To limit the abuse of liquor, the community must be balanced in its approach to liquor in general. It is no use us scolding the wine farmers, just as it would be no use us combating overeating by scolding the stock and vegetable farmers. Those who rant so loudly against the wine farmers should rather use their energy to participate in a balanced information campaign together with the farmers and many others. In this regard, it would carry considerable weight, in my opinion, if someone like the hon member for Parktown would stand up and make a balanced contribution. He is the one member who really has the status and the ability to make a positive contribution in this regard. The hon member himself admits that he has his little drink, and from my own experience I know that he would not say no to a drink. It is therefore no use him trying to keep people away from liquor.

Unfortunately, we reached particularly low levels in the recent debates on the liquor industry, and I want to refer to this briefly. There was an attempt to cast suspicion of the bona fide of honourable, legally elected members of this House, and I regret that this happened. It is a pity that we had to descend to that level, since it detracts from the dignity of this House. There were also hon members who participated in this debate without having the faintest idea what it was about. In this regard I have no choice but to refer to the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North, who is an excellent example of someone who spoke about something he knew nothing about. I am therefore also pleased that the hon member for Albany made his own speech this evening and that he did not ask the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North to do so again. During the Committee Stage the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North tried to speak about the method of marketing and how large the containers in which wine has to be marketed should be. However, this is not the Marketing Act. The method of marketing is regulated by the Liquor Act. Is the hon member not aware that the liquor industry is already burdened by a large variety of complex laws? The hon member asked that it should be provided that flavoured wine should not contain more than 6,5% alcohol by volume. However, this merely goes to prove once again that he knows absolutely nothing about wine, and consequently, he knows nothing about the product with which this Bill is concerned. I wish to make it clear to hon members who perhaps do not yet know this, that we are not dealing here with the sale of flavoured alcohol. We are dealing with flavoured wine, and one cannot lay down too rigid a criterion when one wants to flavour wine if one still wants it to retain the character of wine.

I do not think it is necessary for me to advance any further arguments. I think the time has come for us to pass this legislation, and I take pleasure in supporting the Third Reading.

Mr Speaker, now that the passing of this Bill has reached its final stages, one must study its implications. The first point that comes to mind is the fact that the imposition of the surplus levy will now become payable by all producers. This in itself should alleviate the burden of those in the industry who up to now have been responsible solely for financing the disposal of surpluses. It will now become an equitable and uniform basis involving all producers. On the other hand there is little doubt that flavoured wines will result in greater consumption of wine products—a commendable marketing strategy, if I may say so, Sir, and one that should be emulated by those responsible for marketing of other agricultural products. I think we should ask ourselves a question when we come to judge the benefits or otherwise of flavoured wine because this must be related to some of the dreadful concoctions that are being offered to the public in many cafes and supermarkets at the present time. I do not consider that the population in this country as a whole is irresponsible to the degree that the availability of wine of lower alcohol content will mark the beginning of an alcoholic addiction which would set people, as it were, on the road to ruin. It could have the opposite effect. What I think must be borne in mind, is that viticulture is an industry on which many people rely for a living. It is also a business undertaking, and its problems must be handled in a business-like manner. With this in mind, we in these benches are fully prepared to support the Third Reading.

Mr Speaker. I did not really want to come into this debate again, but as I have been attacked consistently throughout this debate, I feel that it is my responsibility to speak once again.

I have the feeling, and the hon member for Stellenbosch has made it clear once more, that there is a certain sensitivity about being part of a pressure group or a lobby group. I want to state categorically that I believe that democracies actually move forward as a result of public opinion. Public opinion is created by lobby groups and pressure groups of whatever kind they may be. I am sorry if members think that because I describe the KWV as a lobby group, that I therefore mean to speak badly of them. However, I think that we must recognize lobby groups. There is a lobby group in this Parliament in the form of those members who are opposed to the greater availability of liquor to the public. I do not think there is anything wrong with that, but I think it should be recognized as such. I also think it is bad if Government is over-influenced by any particular lobby group. One should make it clear that the KWV is, firstly, because of its legal function an important influence in South African life, and, secondly, that it is a powerful lobby group.

I also want to say how disappointed I am to have noticed that the KWV has been keen to pay for the bust of the former Prime Minister, Mr Vorster, in the Gallery Hall of Parliament. I believe that the NP should be able to find enough money, as it did for previous Prime Ministers, to pay for this bust. I personally would have been happy to have made a contribution to help pay for that bust rather than to allow the KWV to pay for it.

What is the real issue? Now we can deal with the argument of the hon member for Stellenbosch. There are three factors we have to take into account in relation to the consumption of alcohol in this country. One is the public’s right to alcohol, and that is the point which the hon member for Parktown made strongly. Because we are concerned about alcohol abuse, it does not mean that we must become teetotallers, just as because you sell alcohol, it does not mean that you want to make people drunk. That is not the point and is the wrong argument. The public has a right to alcohol. We are not prohibitionists. Secondly, as the hon member for Mooi River said, the wine farmer is entitled to pursue his business and to make a living. Thirdly, we have a responsibility for the general good of society and that is our particular responsibility in this House of Assembly. These three responsibilities have to be balanced. I do not believe, and this is the answer to the hon member for Stellenbosch’s point. That we in this Parliament must encourage people to drink more alcohol. This is why members on this side who are opposed to it, are taking the stand they are doing. If I had my way, I would make the costs of advertising alcoholic drinks, as the hon member for Hillbrow would like to see in the case of nicotine products, not deductible against income for tax purposes. That would immediately improve the position. Preferably there should be no advertising of alcoholic drinks at all. People who want to drink will still be free to drink. If producers still want to advertise, they can do so through the fine KWV wine houses. That is a better way to promote more sensible drinking than the kind of advertisements that are used.

Sir, I would also like to record that I personally will be voting against the Third Reading of this Bill.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North, who has just resumed his seat, again brought up the argument of a “lobby group “, as he called it. I am not going to react to that again. We have stated our standpoints on that score. Members opposite, including hon members of the hon member’s own party, have given their views. I am very sorry that the hon member raised the matter again. I think it was somewhat uncalled for.

The hon member says that the KWV is an important factor in South African society. That is quite correct. The KWV is a fine example of how an industry can organize itself properly to the extent that it is not a burden to the State and that it sees to it in an organized way that its members do not experience any adversity in the economic field.

They have too many quotas.

We can discuss quotas if the hon member wishes. The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North also made an oblique reference to a certain contribution the KWV supposedly made to pay for a bust. I want to say at the outset that as far as I know, those facts are not correct. I do not know where the hon member obtained this information about that. [Interjections.] I shall leave the hon member at that. In any case. I do not think that it is worth my while to spend so much time on him.

Sir, the wine farmers produce a noble product, a product so noble that the holiest sacraments in the church are introduced with that product. However, it is man who makes that noble product into an excessive thing. The KWV, the wine farmers, the organized industry, have always gone out of their way, as the hon member for Ceres explained so well the other day, to warn continuously against the abuse of liquor or alcohol. When we come here with proposals that have a bearing on the expansion of the market, it is by no means our intention to further the use of alcohol as such. Wine and beer compete with one another throughout the world, however. In South Africa one finds that over the past 14 years wine consumption has grown by 48%, whilst the consumption of beer has grown by 350%. Those hon members who have opposed this wine legislation, do not mention that, however. They do not mention that South Africa is the only Western country in which the consumption of whisky is increasing. They are now speaking about a product of the wine farmers of the Boland. As the hon member for Mooi River said, we are dealing here with an established industry which provides an agricultural product. I believe that if we can succeed in shifting the pattern of consumption of many years from spirits to natural wines, we will be able to bring about a better dispensation for the wine industry. At the same time, we would be succeeding in combating the abuse of alcohol. This legislation is supported by all the organizations involved in the industry.

Order! Since the emphasis thus far has been on liquid refreshment, I propose that we now shift the emphasis to more solid refreshment.

Mr Speaker, when the debate was adjourned, I was in the process of dealing with the consumer’s involvement in the control system. Because control boards have become much more marketing-conscious these days, there is an increasing desire, on the part of the control boards, for continuous liaison with organized consumer organizations. Thus at the end of December of last year the Maize Board held discussions with organized consumer organizations, and judging by the relevant report I received from the Maize Board, the discussions were very fruitful. I have also received reports from well-known consumer organizations that value such liaison very highly. The idea is consequently to have continuous liaison with consumer organizations on this basis. It is not necessarily so that statutory arrangements must be made in regard to liaison with consumers, for example the representative of only one consumer on a board. Any board is free, in its marketing campaigns, to do consumer-related market assessments in regard to a product it is marketing. It is very important for boards to make use of this opportunity.

The hon member for Albany put a very important question to me. He asked for another select committee to be appointed to investigate the whole Marketing Act. You will recall, Sir, that eight years ago the Marketing Act was subjected to an intensive investigation by a commission.

Who were the members of that commission?

The hon member for Bezuidenhout must give me a chance to develop my argument. I shall be replying to that in full. The commission’s chief directive was specifically to investigate the structure of the Marketing Act, because the last time the Marketing Act had been subject to an investigation was in 1947, and at the time they basically encountered the same problems as those we have with the Marketing Act today. You see, Sir, the Marketing Act is a dynamic Act. It is an Act that is subject to continual development because the marketing system and the demands of commerce change from day to day. The hon member for Bezuidenhout, as someone active in the commercial field, will know what I am talking about. It stands to reason that there have continually been amendments to the Marketing Act, so much so that in 1968 the Act had to be rewritten because it had become unintelligible. As a result of a variety of schemes that had established themselves, the position at the time was such that there were 22 control boards controlling more than 40 schemes. The whole system had therefore increased in size. The commission’s terms of reference were therefore to investigate the overall structure of the Marketing Act. The majority of the schemes came into being in that way.

The important fact in this connection is that the majority of these schemes developed as a result of requests and representations received from producer organizations who had come to realize the need for schemes in regard to the relevant products. Thus it was indicated that continual adjustments had to be made in regard to the market-place. It was specifically the development of more than 40 schemes, linked to 22 boards, which began to cause structural problems. That is why the terms of reference were, amongst other things—an hon member referred to this—that there should, in the first instance, be an examination of the co-ordinating function of the National Marketing Council because that was the hub around which the entire control system revolved. Hon members also mentioned this. A further request was that the number of schemes be looked at. The idea was to have the number of schemes reduced. If one hears evidence and holds discussions with various representatives of the control boards, one is made to realize that marketing has become a specialized field, particularly the marketing of agricultural products. One must be very careful, when it comes to consolidating schemes, that one does not, in the process, place specialization in jeopardy.

We have indeed made progress with regard to certain schemes. As hon members know, the Milk Board and the Dairy Board have been incorporated into one board. There have also been recommendations for other schemes likewise to be incorporated under one board. That would not mean that the relevant scheme was being abolished, but rather that the scheme was being incorporated under one specific board and one administrative function. Such recommendations have been made, and we are still examining this aspect.

Recently an investigation was conducted into the fruit industry. Hon members also asked questions about that. Among other things, the Jacobs Committee also carried out an investigation into the possibility of greater co-ordination in regard to the fruit boards. One cannot summarily eliminate certain administrative activities, because if one tried to do that, one could disrupt a very sensitive industry. Under the control and guidance of the South African Agricultural Union, and also with the assistance of the producer organizations in the fruit industry itself, an attempt is now being made to establish a co-ordinating committee to obtain certain statistics from one another in connection with production and so on. We are making progress in this field on a voluntary basis. If the boards co-ordinate their activities on a voluntary basis, I surely do not think the hon member would have any objection to a law being made to change the situation. I think we are making good progress in this connection.

Mr Speaker, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

Sir, perhaps I shall be replying to the question the hon member wants to ask in the course of my speech, but if the hon member still wants to ask a question after I have completed my speech, I shall very gladly give him an opportunity to do so.

Communal interests were also examined. The composition of control boards was changed; they were made smaller. I think that our control boards function very effectively at the moment.

What is very important is that the principle of the existing system has been re-confirmed. The commission found the system to be practical and purposeful, found it to be adapted to South African conditions. We carried out relevant investigations abroad. We went, for example, to the United Kingdom where they have a similar system. They have a milk board, a wool board, a wheat board, a potato board, and so on, based on more or less the same system. I am now referring to the period prior to the United Kingdom being admitted to the European Common Market. Basically the system that we apply today is very similar to that developed in the British Isles. We have found that we should stick to this kind of marketing scheme.

The commission adopted, as its standpoint, certain principles, and I think they still apply today. I want to focus on one of them. There is a great deal of talk about the free-market system, but even at that stage one of the commission’s findings was, and I quote from paragraph 8.2 of its report:

As hon members know, co-operative legislation was accordingly amended so that there could be proper competition with the private sector, devoid of certain inherent benefits. I want to quote a further important point:

So even then the commission accepted this principle.

There are indeed boards and schemes that need to be invested. The commission’s standpoint at the time was that it was not its function to investigate each of the approximately 40 schemes and it recommended that some of the schemes be investigated separately. The first scheme to be investigated was that relating to the meat industry. The Van der Merwe Committee, under the chairmanship of the erstwhile Secretary of the Department of Agricultural Economics and Marketing, undertook the first investigation. Then there was the Eloff Commission, and at present the Jacobs Committee is again investigating the matter, and certain recommendations in regard to the meat industry have been made.

Those were, for the most part, departmental committees and not commissions of inquiry in the true sense of the word.

There are private individuals serving on the Jacobs Committee. In any event, a report was submitted and is being considered at present.

Other schemes have subsequently also shown themselves to be in need of investigation, for example the maize scheme, and this scheme was investigated and a report submitted. At the moment the scheme is being discussed by the producers themselves. They must clarify the position for themselves. At a later stage they will approach the Marketing Council with a proposal, and after that council has investigated the matter, it will be referred to the Minister. Then we shall probably be publishing a provisional scheme, thus enabling the Marketing Council and all other parties involved—including the hon member for Bezuidenhout—to lodge objections.

At present we are also investigating another scheme, ie in the dairy industry. The National Marketing Council submitted a proposal to have this scheme amended, and already certian adjustments are being made in the dairy industry, amongst other things the abolition of the control on retail prices. We are also in the process of abolishing restrictive registration in this industry. In terms of a ministerial directive control boards must orientate themselves more towards a free-market system, and the boards are in the process of doing so. There is also, however, a general directive to the National Marketing Council to examine the majority of the schemes and implement the free-market system. I must concede that it is a tremendous job for the present Marketing Council and the Department of Agriculture to investigate such a large number of schemes. So in some or other way certain ways and means will have to be found to assist the Marketing Council in the investigation of the schemes.

There are various movements afoot to have the schemes function properly. My personal standpoint is that there is sufficient flexibility in the Marketing Act and that it is unnecessary to have this Act, and the principles involved, investigated. If the schemes can have their problems straightened out, if adjustments can be made and if the schemes can be accommodated under the amended Marketing Act. I do not think any investigation is necessary at this stage.

I should now like to reply to certain hon members questions and standpoints. The hon member for Ceres referred to the report of the relevant President’s Council Committee on economic affairs. He very clearly spelled out the conditions in which agriculture found itself. The position is that from time to time the authorities have to interfere in some or other way. A very interesting fact is that in a country such as the USA. which is held up to us all as a country in which private initiative is the order of the day, there is, at times, drastic interference in the free-market system. In terms of their Agricultural Marketing Agreement Act “marketing orders” are issued. If two thirds of a group of producers decide to make a certain scheme applicable within a specific area and the Minister approves it, they hold “public hearings”, after which the scheme is published. A referendum can even be called out. Our legislation also makes provision for referendums. When such a scheme is published by way of proclamation in the USA. provision is made—here I am referring specifically to a product such as milk—for minimum prices, quotas, a pool scheme, etc. This is basically the same sort of thing that applies to the majority of our schemes. To indicate the extent of this interference in the free-market system, it should be noted that since 1972 62% of all dairy product production in the USA took place under these “marketing orders”. So this is not a phenomenon that is unknown anywhere in the world. It even manifests itself in the USA

But the prices of those products are world prices.

Not necessarily. Throughout the USA there are more than 60 of these “marketing orders” and the prices of products differ from state to state. They are not necessarily world prices. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Mooi River made a valuable contribution, for which I want to thank him. He is having certain problems with the penal provision. I examined his amendment in this regard and discussed it with my legal advisers. It seems to me there is a strong possibility that we shall be accepting his amendment. On this point the hon member for Barberton agreed with him.

The hon member for Pietermaritzburg South asked me a great many questions. These days everyone is going on about the so-called free market. What we are doing is completely over-emphasizing this free-market philosophy. The hon the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism agrees with me—he also deals with these matters every day—that there is no such thing as a completely free market. If there were to be an absolutely free market, we would have chaos in this country. The hon member for Pietermaritzburg South stated that there would be much less pressure from the commercial sector if we did away with the single-channel, fixed-price system. At present we have only three basic products in South Africa that fall under the single-channel, fixed-price system, ie maize, wheat and dairy products. We cannot, however, summarily do away with the single-channel, fixed-price systems because they serve a specific purpose. All three these products are basic foodstuffs. It is necessary for us to be self-sufficient in regard to these products. They are so essential that it is necessary, in terms of these schemes, to make certain subsidies available to facilitate the use of these products by the various lower income groups in South Africa. Maize is one of these products.

Another very important characteristic is that the single-channel, fixed-price system is one that has also, in the past, helped in the development of a particular product. Several hon members mentioned the fact that in the thirties, and even in the early ’forties, the position was such that there were a lot of people offering certain products, but only a few buyers for those products. The position, in other words, was such that the producers of a specific product did not have the proper bargaining power. The single-channel, fixed-price system gave these struggling producers some bargaining power. Thus the singlechannel, fixed-price system developed over the years, playing a major role in the development of South African agriculture in general.

Let us look at the case of maize. Maize is cultivated on 4 million hectares of the 6 million hectares in the summer grain areas. It is therefore a very important product when it comes to the utilization of agricultural land in the summer grain areas. As such it has an extensive influence on the level of stability in agriculture. In the meantime these schemes have also been developing, and today it is only the producer price and the selling price of maize that are still subject to control. Maize products such as mealie-meal are sold on the free market, and the milling industry is engaged in mutual competition in various fields to develop various maize products for the market. So there is growth in this connection.

The State, however, is a kind of shareholder in this scheme, and provision is made, amongst other things, for 900 000 tons of maize to be stored in case we have a crop failure in any specific years. No one, for example, could have dreamt at the time that we would have had such a complete production collapse that we are having to import 60% of our needs this year.

At the time the Government also accepted a policy for the mass storage of grain, amongst others things maize, which is the most important product, providing a storage handling subsidy. The compensation for the storage handling, which is part of the subsidy and amounts to approximately R130 million this year, is used to cover the grain silo costs. There are bulk storage facilities for approximately 10 million to 11 million tons available in South Africa. That is a very important facet in the proper storage and distribution of various types of grain. Because the State makes a contribution here by way of a subsidy, provision is also made for the fact that local needs must first be met before maize is exported abroad at a profit, and this has happened in the past. So it is not only the producer, but also the country in general, including the consumers, who benefit from this scheme, because the country’s needs are constantly being met.

I want to state, however, that regardless of whether it is a fixed-price system or not, or whatever scheme may be involved, in our present marketing situation it is an inexorable requirement that we take note of the prevailing marketing conditions. The council ran into difficulties in fixing prices because it did not know in advance what the surpluses or the needs of the overseas markets would be. Overseas realization therefore has a manipulating effect on the net price of products. The council took due note of this, and hence the investigation with a view to adapting to it.

The hon member for Paarl referred to wheat, quoting this scheme as an example of the excellence of our control system, since although at present we perhaps produce the most expensive wheat under the circumstances, we bake the cheapest bread in the world. This is, of course, with due regard to subsidies. The hon member for Mooi River also mentioned that fact. Last year the scheme was used to subsidize the consumer, and we payed R275 million in bread subsidies. I do not know whether we would have been able to administer this subsidy scheme as effectively if we had not had a singlechannel, fixed-price scheme. This is somewhat complicated, and I do not know whether it would have been possible. Even with regard to this industry, it has been found that price-fixing would systematically have to be adapted to overseas prices. The Wheat Board took note of this last year and it was then decided not to increase the wheat price. It is still the board’s view that prices should be adapted to world market prices. The fact of the matter is, however, that the days of cost-plus price-fixing in regard to these products have passed. It was necessary to have a cost-plus system while the industry was being developed, but the industry has developed to such an extent that certain other marketing factors must now be taken into account before prices can be fixed.

The hon member also asked quite a few other questions to which I briefly want to reply. He said, amongst other things, that as far as he was concerned there would appear to be monopolistic conditions in the meat industry that were seemingly being exacerbated. He also asked for the term “control boards” to be changed to “marketing boards”. On this point I agree with him. The Co-ordinating Committee of Control Boards also feels the same about this and possibly we shall be in a position to change this name by way of legislation next year or the year after. He also asked why there was, as yet, no product comprising both butter and margarine on the market. There are new blends on the market—I do not know whether the hon member is aware of the fact. If he is not, I can give him the name of the product and he can taste it and tell me what it tastes like.

The hon member also pointed out that farmers in Natal relinquished their meat quotas to the drought-stricken farmers, but that the feed-lots were now utilizing those quotas. What has happened in this connection? This fine gesture on the part of the Natal meat producers gave rise to a certain problem. In practice their offer meant that between 1 200 and 1 500 animals could be sent to the Cato Ridge abattoir each week by farmers from the drought-stricken areas. The arrangement with the Meat Board, however, was that the ratio of high-grade carcases to low-grade carcases would be 65% to 35%. The farmers in the drought-stricken areas created the impression that they would make deliveries in accordance with that ratio. What, however, eventually arrived on the market? Only 28% of the carcases were high-grade carcases, while 72% were low-grade carcases. The following week 22% of the carcases were high-grade carcases, whilst 78% were low-grade carcases. Because we have a free-market system, the price of high-grade carcases, the super grades, sky-rocketed. The Meat Board has many shortcomings, but it does not make all that many mistakes. It had a responsibility in this connection. To prevent the price of super grade meat from rocketing, the Board realized that there was only one alternative and that was to send high-grade carcases from the feed-lots to the Cato Ridge abattoir. This resulted in the price of that meat dropping within a week from 299c to approximately 250c. The feed-lot people were very annoyed about that because they had to send carcases to Cato Ridge even though they had their own marketing facilities at City Deep. The Meat Board did everything in its power, however, to redress the situation. It also gave additional marketing facilities to the Witwatersrand for the people from the drought-stricken areas. There was consequently a disruption in prices as a result of the ratio of high-grade to low-grade carcases. That is where the problem arose.

The hon member for Parys highlighted the important role played by board members. He himself was a member of a control board and knows of the sacrifices board members must make, particularly farmers who have to leave their farms and at times have to undertake important investigations. Let me just say that the board to which he referred, and of which he was a member, namely the Maize Board, has many problems, particularly these days, and must often hold meetings. They have various investigation committees, perhaps even too many. The board members are therefore very busy. Then the hon member asked us to have a look at the subsidy the control boards receive. Control boards receive what we call an honorarium. The members, therefore, do not receive a salary, but instead an honorarium for the time they devote to the industry. Let me tell the hon member that in February of this year we increased the honorarium to control board members by 30%. Previously they did not receive very much, so the 30% does not make a big difference. It is many years since it was last adjusted, and we just felt that it was necessary to at least have a look at the circumstances of these farmers who, as it were, perform a service for their fellow-farmers.

I now come to the hon member for Bezuidenhout. He asked me whether we should not have the control board system and the Marketing Act functioning under the Department of Industries, Commerce and Tourism. He asked my opinion about that. In the hon member’s speech, however, he himself actually gave the answer to the problem that he posed. I do not know why he set it out the way he did in his speech and then asked me a question about it.

†He says very clearly in his speech (Hansard, 30 April 1984, col 5444):

He himself says it is a different position. That being the case, why does he want it to fall under the Department of Industries, Commerce and Tourism? He himself says agriculture is quite different. I quote further:

*The hon member points to the difference between agriculture and commerce, but asks me why the control board system does not fall under the Department of Industries, Commerce and Tourism. He himself, however, supplied the answer. Let me tell him that I know of no Western country in which it falls under the Department of Commerce and Industries. I therefore do not know why the hon member asked me that question. Actually he answered the question himself. [Interjections.]

Particularly in agriculture it is tremendously important to have as small a gap as possible between production and marketing. In industry, particularly in the manufacturing industry, they are also contiguous. Why should marketing and production be separated? Marketing is, in effect, a continuation of the production process. Previously there was a Department of Agricultural Economics and Marketing and a separate Department of Agricultural Technical Services. It does not necessarily have to fall under the same Ministry. There must, however, be some administrative relationship between the production sector and the marketing sector. In commerce and agriculture one cannot divorce these two.

The hon member for Wynberg also asked me certain questions. The hon member also had a problem, I think, in connection with meat. It seems to me as if the hon member always has problems with meat. He has a problem in regard to clause 22 of the Bill concerning the requirement that certain board discussions be confidential. That is extremely important, because certain board discussions, particularly in regard to price-making, relate to decisions subject to ministerial approval. Debates on, and the formulation of, a proposed price at a board meeting must therefore be conveyed to the Marketing Council. The Marketing Council considers it. The Marketing Council is also represented on the control board, and its representatives therefore know what the discussions were all about. After the Marketing Council has considered the matter, it is referred to the department and to the Minister. Now hon members can understand what would happen if proper confidentiality were not maintained. I do believe, in fact, that it is only proper procedure for meetings that this should be done. So it is only logical that discussions of that nature should be confidential. The Press and the public must therefore not become aware of the particulars of such discussions, because this could give rise to abuses. There are, however, certain discussions and decisions of a board that are not subject to ministerial approval, and such decisions cause no problems. If a board takes decisions of this nature, it can make those decisions known and even have them published. Those are decisions in regard to which particulars can, in fact, be made available to the news media. In the present case, however, it is specifically a question of confidential matters, particularly because we want to create a bit more order in this connection.

I should now also like to reply to other hon members’ speeches. I have again read all the speeches carefully, and I want to reply very briefly.

The hon member for Prieska sketched the role that control boards played in regard to production. I believe that up to now control boards have played a tremendously important role in the production sector. In this regard one simply has to call to mind the contribution made by the control boards in regard to research funds. By way of these research funds money was made available to various bodies, including the research institutes of the department. The research institutes, in turn, carried out important investigations into the development of better cultivars, new seed, certain livestock diseases, swine plague, etc. The hon member also mentioned the tremendous attacks to which control boards where constantly subject, particularly because of the building they have erected. At the same time, however, the hon member referred to a specific board that had built up a very fine reserve fund. For the sake of security and improved price stability, boards do endeavour to build up sound reserve funds. The hon member did ask what was wrong with a board investing its funds in fixed property as a hedge against inflation, etc. Many boards, in fact, have invested their reserve funds in this way. It is, after all, a sound method of investment. It does, moreover, increase price stability in the field in which the relevant boards are active.

The hon member for Paarl is, of course, a member of the Wheat Board. He made the statement here that the Wheat Board had furnished proof of the positive characteristics of the single-channel, fixed-price system. The hon member also mentioned the fact that the Wheat Board takes due note of the demand position in the industry. It is a scheme in the industry which, the hon member says, has become self-sufficient. Thereby greater stability has also been achieved in the supply position. The hon member says that the scheme also serves as a means by which the authorities can administer food subsidies to the consumer. In the present circumstances I can think of no more ideal scheme than the Winter Grain Scheme.

The hon member Dr Odendaal made a statement to which I briefly want to react because I think it is a very important statement. He said that in capitalistic countries agriculture and its marketing systems were always subject to pressure. The problem remains, however, that in agriculture one is dealing with a non-flexible supply and demand situation that unavoidably demands interference of some or other kind at some or other time. Agriculture is not like a factory where one can press a button to control production at the other end. If climatic conditions are favourable, we have surpluses of dairy products and wheat, but as the hon member has said, this does not mean that in normal times, when one has enough food, people necessarily eat more. Consumer capacity is also limited. What is now happening in the food market is that consumers’ choices do change from product to product, but they do not necessarily eat more. This consequently indicates to us the inflexibility that exists as far as supply and demand are concerned, and this makes agriculture an extremely difficult and complicated industry when it comes to the marketing of agricultural products. The hon member for Bezuidenhout now wants us to administer this in a different way.

The hon member for Ladybrand referred to clause 33 of the Bill which makes provision for agreements with the independent states. I think this is the beginning of a common market in Southern Africa. There are already a variety of campaigns being conducted on a multi-lateral basis, a special working group has been called into being and there is continual liaison with the TBVC countries as far as this is concerned.

Is that a general or an own affair?

What would the hon member like it to be? [Interjections.]

The hon member for Caledon also made a very good contribution. He made the interesting point that we so glibly speak of interference in the free market. The hon member mentioned a few examples of the interference in the free market that took place on the other side of the fence. He mentioned, for example, the example of fertilizers. He pointed out that with the protection policy one was not able to import fertilizers more cheaply and therefore had to buy the more expensive South African fertilizers. There are also several other products to which the hon member referred. An investigation into this matter was instituted by my hon colleague. The point the hon member was making, however, was that there was indeed a form of interference in the free market in the other spheres, not only by agriculture.

In conclusion I just want to say that at this stage we have a very interesting, a very fine state of affairs developing in regard to the control system. In this connection I briefly want to refer to the Co-ordinating Committee of Marketing Boards. They do not like the words “control boards”. On a joint basis this committee is bringing the various problems in the control system to the hon the Minister’s attention. In future it will be customary for the Minister, probably quite frequently, to consult with this committee and with the National Marketing Council. This could greatly help us when it comes to suggestions for improving the process. I therefore foresee this co-ordinating committee possibly being able to play an important future role in the overall control system. Now one must be careful, of course, that at the same time one does not, in the process, jeopardize the position of the National Marketing Council. I want to concede at once that in future one will have to examine the position of the National Marketing Council. I am being very honest as far as agriculture is concerned. I do not think that the recommendations of the commission gave enough substance to the authority of the National Marketing Council. The statement I want to make is that we shall probably have to further examine the position of the National Marketing Council. I think the hon member also said that the people serving on the National Marketing Council knew nothing of marketing. [Interjections.] The hon member should hold a few discussions with those people. Today we have people in the control system who are absolute authorities in a variety of marketing fields. The hon member would be surprised—this is no longer the age of Melrose cheese. We must strengthen their ranks. What is extremely important, in the process, is that we should also give them more help with their administration and their secretariat. We are having a look at the position. One of the objectives is thus to improve the marketing system. The principles of the Marketing Act, however, are inviolable. They have stood for almost 50 years now.

I think that the Marketing Act, as it stands at present, makes sufficient provision for the accommodation of all the various schemes, and also for amending the schemes to fit in with the modern system of marketing that has developed in South Africa and overseas.

Mr Speaker, I should like to ask the hon the Minister what he meant by the expression which he used and which I find a little strange. He referred to restrictive registration with regard to the dairy industry, and then left the thought in the air as saying that they were looking into this. I wonder whether the hon the Minister would not say a little more about that expression that he used.

Mr Speaker, the policy of restrictive registration also has a very long history, in the dairy industry, amongst others. Particularly in the urban areas one comes across undertakings or distributors on virtually every street corner. At the time the Dairy Board decided upon the need for rationalizing distribution outlets. There is, in point of fact, a registration committee, in both the Dairy Board and the Meat Board, which has to look at this question of rationalization from time to time. Over the years—things do not stand still—a situation began to develop in which restrictive registration mushroomed to such an extent that we think that at this stage things should be opened up so that everyone is given an opportunity to enter the field. I have therefore decided in principle to abolish restrictive registration.

Whilst I am dealing with this point, I want to point out that between my department and the department of the hon the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism there are negotiations in progress to find, by way of the Competition Board, some form of contact in regard to monopolies that could quite probably develop in the control system. I must say at once that I do not believe the hon the Minister’s legislation makes provision for him to interfere in the Marketing Council, but we do take note of his standpoints and see if he can adapt to that.

Mr Speaker, the question I want to put to the hon the Minister is this: In view of the fact that we on this side of the House do not argue against the principles of the Marketing Act but have misgivings about the operations under the Marketing Act, will he reconsider the question of the appointment of a commission to go into the operation of the Marketing Act, and not the principles of the Act?

The operation of the Act is scrutinized by the Marketing Board, the department, producer organizations and the trade.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Mr Speaker, I move:

With a few exceptions the amendments contained in this measure do not constitute any changes in principle, being chiefly necessitated by the consolidation of the Scientific Research Council Act, which will appear on the Order Paper after this amending Bill has been passed. I shall therefore only deal with those clauses containing substantive amendments.

Clause 2 of the amending Bill makes provision for administrative authority for the transfer of functions and powers of the council to any other body established by an Act of Parliament or an ordinance of a province. This authority is deemed necessary because, when an institute or a subdivision of the CSIR has to be transferred to another organization, an amendment to the law is necessary to make specific provision for this. As I have said, the measure merely reflects general administrative authority. A decision to in fact transfer some or other specific institute of the CSIR to another body will be taken by the Cabinet, and in accordance with the further provisions of the relevant clause.

In clause 3(b) provision is now specifically being made for the conditions of service of the council to apply to the president of the council as well, unless the State President, by whom he is appointed, determines otherwise. Although in the past it was assumed that the council’s conditions of service, with regard to leave benefits, pension arrangements, etc, also applied to the president, it is nevertheless desirable for this to be clearly stated in the Act. This in no way detracts from the State President’s prerogative to lay down other conditions of service if he so wishes.

In clause 4(a) provision is now also being made for the council to second its officers to other organizations. At present the council may only second officials to the South African Inventions Development Corporation, and this provision is also being extended to prevent unnecessary amendments to the law. The insertion of this general seconding power also embraces the seconding of staff to the South African Inventions Development Corporation, and the existing subsection (4) can therefore be deleted.

Subsections (2) and (3), which are being deleted in terms of clause 4(b), deal with matters which are at present regulated by the Associated Institutions Provident Fund Act, 1971 and are therefore superfluous.

†The amendments proposed in clause 5 are intended to eliminate any possible contradiction between section 11 of the principal Act and section 59(2)(a) of the Patents Act, 1978.

Clause 6 amends section 15 of the Act to order the position regarding the submission and approval of supplementary statements of estimated expenditure. The procedures which are now being laid down have hitherto been strictly adhered to by the council, but the proposed statutory provision is considered advisable.

Mr Speaker, the Bill before the House is simple and straightforward. It is essentially an organizational measure designed to improve efficiency through the redistribution of certain assets, powers, personnel and resources.

In addition it deals with the effective harnessing of facilities such as technikons in the whole process of scientific and industrial research in an environment where resources are scarce and where progress is really a major achievement. I will deal with some of the details later but I want to say a few words about the development of an appropriate technology for South Africa and the role of the CSIR and its related bodies in bringing this about.

Research and development carried out in industrialized Western countries cannot simply be transplanted to this country. Our business organizations, with certain exceptions, just do not have the size and the resources for research and development. They tend to be the local branches of international organizations or otherwise they manufacture goods under licence for overseas manufacturers. Their engineering is largely imported. Incidentally, that technology is far and away the cheapest technology that is available to us. The engineering, design and production skills these companies bring to us are essential if we are to achieve a reasonable growth in the GDP.

Sir, it always intrigues me when people talk about the self-sufficiency of South Africa. My advice to them is that next time they visit one of our big plants they must not go to the office or spend too much time on the factory floor. They must ask to be taken to the toolroom and drawing office and speak to the kingpin people there. Normally they will find that a very large proportion of people who operate in the key positions are immigrants.

Our development has been decidedly patchy. There are areas where industrial development is highly sophisticated and others where we carry out industrial operations that still belong to a previous generation. This is natural in a developing country. It is nothing to be ashamed of. We just do not have the resources to advance equally fast on all fronts at once. We do not have the skills or the capital. It is the typical economic problem that we have to divide scarce resources among a host of competing needs.

Our problem, luckily, as so frequently happens, is also an opportunity. It puts South Africa in a unique position vis-à-vis the undeveloped regions of Africa, sophisticated enough to be able to use the most sophisticated knowledge, and sophisticated enough actually to add to that knowledge in many cases, for example in the fields of nuclear engineering, chemical engineering and mining. Yet we are still engaged in a life and death struggle to extract our 30 million people from the chrysalis of the Third World. We understand how inappropriate much of Western technology is, something which most people overseas do not understand. This makes us uniquely qualified to fulfil an interpretive role. Our advice means a great deal more than that of people from overseas whose knowledge of our problems tends to be purely academic. Similarly, the problem of the transfer of technologies and skills and the introduction of primitive cultures to these technologies and skills, should be familiar to us. These are things that we should know more about than any of the industrial countries that send their technology to this country. They are used to working with a vast reservoir of skilled labour, people who have been integrated for generations in the whole culture of an industrialized country.

In South Africa we have therefore not relied entirely on imported technology. The CSIR has been our answer to the development of appropriate technology for a developing nation. I think this Government must be given the credit that it has been particularly successful in developing some of these structures over the years. Our firms have lacked the resources, skills and turnover to lift themselves up by their own boot-straps. Our answer to this has been an inter-relationship between this largely Government financed research institution and our own industry. I think it is this mutually supportive relationship that has been built up between the CSIR and the private sector that has been so valuable. It is time though for us to ask ourselves whether we are giving the research and development of appropriate technologies for industry enough priority and consequently whether we are actually supporting the CSIR sufficiently. Any research into the proportion of the GDP that countries throughout the world spend on research and development seems to produce the same result. They actually allocate a proportion of GDP towards research and development in inverse proportion to their country’s needs, and we are no different. In the USA, for example, they allocate about 2,3% of their GDP towards research and development, and we allocate 0,06%.

In this respect it is quite instructive to have a look at the Kleu report again and what he has to say on this question of the necessity for a technological policy coherent with an industrial development strategy. The following are some of the points that are stressed in the report: Firstly, it is stressed continuously that we have a shortage of capital and the fact that we must get that capital from the export of manufactured products. Of course, the corollary of that is that one has to built up technology. Furthermore, the report states that research must be marked oriented, and this is something which the CSIR has been quite successful at. There must also be rapid and effective transfer of current technology into goods and services. This involves a publicity function which I think the CSIR must also be given credit for. I believe that their public relations have not been bad at all.

The Kleu report also emphasizes that small firms can play a part in research and development, but they must do this in conjunction with an organization like the CSIR. Indeed, I believe the CSIR does help them significantly in this area. The creation of a research priorities committee is also something that is called for in the report. This priority committee should actually consider projects which the CSIR has put forward as possible research projects. A further recommendation is that adequate funds should be available for the successful completion of each stage of technological development. That brings us to the consideration of whether we are doing just that.

Against this background we have the situation where the various institutions of the CSIR I think last year called for R30 million for new and extended projects, but eventually they were allocated only R4 million and. I believe, a further R4 million for university bursaries. It is surely time that we should ask whether we are not wasting opportunities which a fine organization like the CSIR does give us for the development of appropriate technology.

I should like to refer briefly to the Bill before us, Sir. I have no particular points to raise in addition to those that I have raised. It authorizes the transfer of assets; it concerns the conditions of service, the seconding of officers, the pension fund, certain matters concerning rights of discoveries and the submission of supplementary financial statements. Those are all purely administrative matters, and we will be supporting the Bill.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Walmer stated certain points of view and I am inclined to agree with him in that regard. In particular he emphasized the importance of the regulation of certain research projects, and in my opinion it is an important aspect that where research has been done on a relatively large scale, such research should in fact lead to practical applications and, in so doing, further the interests of industry. I wish to refer briefly to the activities of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, because the work of this council is of exceptional importance and it provides services across a wide spectrum. It is necessary that this important body be enabled to carry out its task in the most effective way possible. I think that the provisions contained in this Bill are aimed at achieving this object. I therefore take pleasure in supporting the Bill.

It may be asked why the work of the CSIR is so important. This council came into being in 1945 and consists of 25 institutes. There are 4 929 staff members and the annual budget is approximately R152 million. Of these scientific researchers, 46,6% are working at universities and technikons and in museums. Today there are approximately 400 bodies in the country carrying out research, whereas 7 700 researchers are involved in scientific and technological development. Hundreds of millions of rands are spent on this task annually.

The aims of the CSIR can be summed up in the following four aims. Due to lack of time I cannot discuss them in detail and accordingly I shall merely refer briefly to each one. In the first place there is the development of human material, which affects their own staff as well as personal research. In the second place there is the development of natural resources, industrial production, economic growth, industrial research and research for industry. In the third place there is development of community services, which includes planning in respect of local and regional development, urban development, housing schemes, the removal of waste material, air pollution and water consumption. In the fourth place there is the development of national services, eg the infrastructure for economic development and research on rail and road links, harbours, pipelines and communication.

Technological development in industry is essential if we are to keep abreast of the competitive international situation. The hon member for Walmer also referred to this. A person with a great deal of experience of economic and business life once said that a clever person learnt from his own experience, but that a wise one also learnt from the experience of others. I think that this applies to science as well. Therefore it is important to know what is being done in other countries. Moreover there should be proper co-ordination among the local bodies carrying out research. Scientific and technological knowledge must be effectively passed on to industry. This will make it possible to develop a favourable competitive position. Inventions must be commercialized, while technological policy and industrial policy must, where possible, be more closely linked.

There are still great challenges for scientific researchers in this country. If time permits I wish to refer to a few spheres in which breakthroughs could be of tremendous value for this country and its people. We know that a great deal of research is being done and that valuable results have already been achieved, but there are additional objectives that require attention. In the first place I have in mind alternative sources of energy. Hydrogen may serve as an alternative source for the internal combustion engine, even though this may sound far-fetched at this point. Then, too, there is cheaper electricity and the conservation of energy in buildings and elsewhere. There is the question of cheaper sewerage systems and sanitation systems. In the developing cities for the various population groups this is an important aspect, because the present system is extremely expensive. There is the possibility of designing simpler and cheaper wiring systems for houses. There is the possibility of increased safety in industries and on the mines. There is the efficient use of our large coal reserves with a high ash content. Then there is the question—which has already been raised here on several occasions—of the theft of thousands of vehicles, involving enormous expense. There is the promotion of greater road safety. Then, too, there is the valuable work that could assist industry in the country in various ways. One could continue mentioning the ways in which science can serve a country and help it to improve its economic situation. Since this amending Bill will certainly contribute, in certain respects, towards enabling the CSIR to carry out its task more effectively and purposefully, I take pleasure in supporting it.

Mr Speaker, the CP supports this Bill and I do not intend making a longer speech than the hon the Minister did. I think we all acknowledge that the CSIR is one of the bodies in South Africa which has already achieved considerable renown, not only locally but also internationally, and is very well known. I think it is appropriate that we should pay tribute this evening to that institution for what it has done for South Africa and how it has done it. The fact that so few amendments in respect of this body come before Parliament is an indication of how thoroughly they do and administer their work.

I think there is one thing we shall have to consider. Research is extremely expensive and does not always produce results. Moreover, there are many agencies and bodies in South Africa that are engaged in this activity. I think we shall have to see to it that overlapping does not take place, that there is better co-ordination in this sphere and that money is not wasted when different bodies investigate the same matter. This can happen, and occasionally savings can be effected.

In effect there are only six important clauses in this Bill. I just wish to point out to the hon the Minister that something he said in the course of his speech does not tally with what appears in the Bill. In passing, I want to thank the hon the Minister for having provided me with a copy of his speech. I sincerely appreciate it. He says in his speech:

In the Bill reference is not made to the Cabinet in this regard. On page 4 one reads in the envisaged subsection 4B (2):

To me there is a big difference between the concurrence of “the other Minister concerned” and the concurrence of the Cabinet. In this regard I want to ask the hon the Minister: “If the Minister of one of the other Houses of the new dispensation, when it comes into operation, says “no” as a member of the Cabinet, what would happen then? Would it be referred to the President’s Council, or what would happen? How would consensus be achieved? If the Minister of that other House does not wish to co-operate in the Cabinet, what will the solution be? How will this be dealt with? The legislation refers very clearly to the Minister and not to the Cabinet. When the legislation is implemented it will be done on the basis of what is stated there and not on the basis of what the hon the Minister said in his speech. Therefore I should like the hon the Minister just to explain that matter.

All the laws put it that way.

Then, too, I just wish to say to the hon the Minister that there are a few aspects of this legislation which I believe are very sound. He said that clause 6 had in fact been included in the Bill on the recommendation of the department itself. I accept that. I believe that it is a very good supplement to the existing legislation. The hon the Minister explained very clearly the additional rules and regulations relating, inter alia, to the president and to the officials. In this respect I wish to put it very clearly that we are gratified that it has now been stipulated specifically that secondment, particularly to foreign states, can only take place with the consent of the employee in question. Therefore I take it that such an employee will in no circumstances be compelled to accept a secondment if he is not absolutely satisfied with it.

We therefore support the legislation.

Mr Speaker, I, too, take pleasure in supporting all the principles embodied in this legislation. Basically, the measure incorporates amendments—as I understand it—with a view to a consolidating measure which I am told is in preparation. I should prefer not to discuss every clause of the Bill in detail. Indeed, the hon the Minister has already done so in the course of his Second Reading speech. I do just wish to refer to a few aspects which I believe the hon the Minister may also take into account when the consolidating Bill is being finally prepared for submission to this House.

Clause 2 concerns an amendment relating to the activities of the CSIR. In this regard I should like to refer to the functions of the council, as defined in section 3 of the principal Act. According to that section the council shall have charge of all such matters affecting scientific and industrial research in the Republic as may be assigned to it by the Minister, and so on. Therefore reference is made in the section to scientific and industrial research. However, we all know that in this regard one in fact speaks of natural science research. When we look at the Human Sciences Research Act, in terms of which the HSRC was established, it is evident that clear reference is made to the human sciences. Therefore I should like to see the term “scientist” being replaced by “natural scientist” in the consolidation Bill that is being prepared.

I also wish to point out that both section 3 and section 4 of the principal Act are very widely framed, with a view to imposing no restrictions on the activities of the CSIR. However, one receives complaints from time to time that the CSIR sometimes competes with the private sector. Therefore one should like to see a provision being included in the consolidation Bill in which it is specifically stated that the CSIR should not undertake functions carried out in practice by ordinary consulting engineers—to mention just one example. The CSIR was established with a view to investigating major scientific and industrial problems, not to do work which is usually done in ordinary practice.

Clause 2 authorizes the transfer of activities from the CSIR to other bodies, as the hon the Minister and other members have already pointed out. If the hon the Minister is now prepared to follow my suggestion and replace the word “scientist” in the principal Act by “natural scientist”, a question arises which is often asked in connection with the functions of the CSIR. The question is whether the National Institute for Personnel Research really still belongs under the CSIR. Should that body not really fall under the jurisdiction of the HSRC?

Then, too, I wish to refer to clause 5 of the Bill, in terms of which section 11 of the principal Act is being amended. This is the section in the principal Act relating to discoveries, inventions and improvements. This amendment is essential because at present the provision in the principal Act is in fact in conflict with the provisions of section 59 of the Patents Act. Let me quote section 59(2) to the House:

I just want to mention one example to state the provision very clearly. When I was employed by UKOR, there was an employee who was an angler in his free time. His hobby was angling, and he discovered a special kind of sinker which did not get caught among stones. He wanted to patent the sinker. Strictly speaking, as the Act reads at present, he would not be able to patent that sinker if he was employed by the CSIR because in terms of the legislation he would have had to transfer to them everything he invented. It is now being stated clearly that only inventions performed in the employ of the CSIR, or while a person is carrying out research with a CSIR bursary, belong to the CSIR, and not what a person invents in his private time.

I still just want to refer to one clause of the amending Bill, viz clause 7, which repeals section 17 of the principal Act. That section is being repealed because reference is made in it to the Legislative Assembly of South West Africa. I wish to point out to the hon the Minister that there was an oversight in the drafting of this amending Bill, because reference is also made to the Legislative Assembly of South West Africa in section 15(l)(e). I take it that this oversight can also be rectified in the consolidating legislation.

Mr Speaker, we in the NRP have no difficulty at all in supporting this measure. I do not intend to go into any detail as far as the various clauses of the Bill are concerned because that has already been done quite adequately by previous speakers.

However, there are two matters I should like to raise with the hon the Minister. The first of these is in regard to clause 5 in regard to which we find that the Act as it stands at present is rather inconsistent as far as the legislation dealing with patents is concerned. It seems rather strange to me that this position existed for so long before the hon the Minister thought fit to effect this amendment.

The hon member for Pretoria East has already mentioned the right of an employee of the CSIR to register a patent against an invention which he has possibly thought out during his spare time, with which I agree. As the Act presently stands, it prohibits this. This is in contradiction to the Patents Act which provides that an employee who does invent something in his spare time is entitled to register a patent against that invention. The point I want to make to the hon the Minister is that it seems to have taken a very long time to discover this inconsistency. However, he is now effecting the necessary amendment, in which we support him, and I am quite sure that this will mean a great deal to the employees of the CSIR. I think we all realize that nothing will fire the imagination of anyone more than the incentive of a particular personal gain. I think that this particular amendment will certainly act as an incentive to those research workers who may have thought up an idea which is perhaps outside of their immediate jurisdiction or interest as far as their position with the CSIR is concerned. While at home they may now therefore apply their minds to that particular concept and, who knows, they may come up with a very important discovery or invention. We therefore support this provision.

Clause 6 of the Bill deals with the accounts of the CSIR, and I have to smile as far as the provisions of the proposed new section 15(3)(b) are concerned which provides that the council shall not incur any expenditure which exceeds the total amount approved under paragraph (a). Paragraph (a), as proposed to be amended here, now provides that the CSIR may from time to time submit supplementary statements of its estimated expenditure. This reminds me of the hon the Minister of Finance. He comes here every year with his Main Budget and he tells the House that this is what his estimate of expenditure is. Later on when he introduces his tax Bills, he says this is how he intends raising the money. We then go off believing that the hon the Minister is going to spend about R20 000 million and that will be all. Next year when we come back, we find that he introduces a supplementary estimate in respect of which he says he has overshot the mark and needs another R2 000 million. It is approved in this House, and as we have said before, there is no real control on spending because as the Appropriation Act reads at the moment, the hon the Minister of Finance is enabled to come back to ask Parliament for additional money when he has overspent. I have to smile at section 15(3)(b) which reads:

To my way of thinking that means absolutely nothing at all because the powers that be in the CSIR can increase their estimates as the hon the Minister of Finance does with his. I just raise this because I believe that if one budgets to spend certain money within a year, one should endeavour to stick within that budget and there should not be a sort of avenue opened here to allow people to say: Do not worry, later in the year we shall submit a supplementary estimate and it will be approved. I sincerely hope that the hon the Minister takes to heart what I have said, not that I am against spending money on research—I intend saying a few words about what the hon member for Walmer has said— but because I believe in tight budgetary control. That is the point I want to make.

As I have said, we support the Bill. I was, however, interested in what the hon member for Walmer had to say. I was very interested to hear the comparisons of the amounts of money as a percentage of the gross domestic product which South Africa spends and which the USA spends. If I heard him correctly, the hon member said that the USA spends 2,6% of its GDP on research and development …

I think I said 2,3%.

Well, 2,3% then. He said that in South Africa we spend 0,6% of our GDP on research and development. That appears to be a tremendous discrepancy and it looks as if South Africa might be lagging way behind the USA. I should like to put it to the hon member that a lot of research which is done in the USA concerns basic research, pioneering research into totally new fields such as space research and development, microtechnology and so on all of which is extremely expensive and a lot of it is way beyond the means of South Africa at the present time. As the hon member has said, we in South Africa are able to import a lot of this information or the findings of such research and development.

He also said that research should be market oriented. The point that I want to put to him is that the market which is open to a country like the USA is tremendous when one considers their tremendous economic power whereas the market open to South Africa is a lot smaller. Therefore I suppose one has to live within one’s means.

The point I want to make to the hon member and also to the hon the Minister—in fact, I want to make an appeal—is that I believe there should be far greater applied research. By that I mean that we in South Africa, not only from our own research institutions, but also by importing research findings from overseas, have at our disposal a tremendous amount of information which we could apply more effectively in our industrial, agricultural and other spheres. I often wondered what the benefits would be, what the cost/benefit ratio would be, if we placed far greater importance upon applying the research, or upon doing research into the ways and means of how we can apply what we already know, more effectively and practically. This is an appeal I make to South Africa’s industrialists and farmers and others: Let us look at what we already know and let us put it to work in our factories and on our farms and, who knows, we may have a tremendous payback from such an effort. Having said that, I wish the CSIR all the best with the facilities which they will now have to rationalize their staff position. Clauses 2 and 4 of the Bill will enable them to move their staff around to best advantage.

Clause 4 is very interesting as it enables a staff member to be seconded to other territories. I imagine that this will apply to a large extent to the TBVC countries. This fact and the Nkomati Accord endorse the views which this party has held for a very long time, namely that South Africa should use its technological knowhow to move out into Africa in order to assist our neighbours and in so doing build better relationships. We in these benches sincerely hope that South African technologists and scientists can move out into Africa generally, not only into the TBVC countries, to assist them in becoming more prosperous and also to assist them with other pressing problems which we know Africa faces at the present time.

We will therefore be supporting this measure.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank hon members for the support given to this legislation. It has been indicated that this legislation is primarily of an administrative nature and is aimed at enabling the CSIR to achieve its objectives more readily.

†I would like to thank the hon member for Walmer for his support, his positive attitude and his very complimentary remarks regarding the CSIR and the work they are presently doing in South Africa, particularly regarding technology and the transfer of technology to industry.

I do believe that people are not always aware of the tremendous work done by the CSIR. I would like to recommend to hon members to take time to read the latest report of the CSIR which was tabled in Parliament recently. I covers only a small portion of the work done by the CSIR but it will give members an indication of the nature of the work and research done by this institution. It will certainly again impress on hon members the importance of applied science.

The hon member for Amanzimtoti also referred to this and I fully agree with him. The fact of the matter is that we have a tremendous resource of knowledge as well as technology available. There is apparently to some extent something lacking in applying these technologies in industry. As a matter of fact, we have investigated this area very thoroughly. I hope to make further announcements in this regard when the White Paper on Industrial Strategy is tabled later this year. It is important that the reservoir of information available within the CSIR be marketed effectively to industry.

I want to thank the hon member for Walmer for his constructive thoughts and— as I have already said—for his friendly words regarding the CSIR.

*The hon member for Walmer also referred to the question of funds. This is an aspect in regard to which I should like to support the hon member and other hon members who referred to it. The hon member for Amanzimtoti remarked quite correctly that we were not entirely comparable with such countries as the USA. It is not possible for South Africa, owing to our particular circumstances and the nature of the basic research that is done here, to compare our spending in regard to research with developed and leading countries in the world such as the USA for example. As far as research is concerned, we should like to spend more. It is nevertheless a great achievement on the part of the CSIR and other research institutions in South Africa that in many fields we have remained in the forefront of scientific research, despite limited funds and limited manpower and in spite of our available facilities not being comparable with overseas facilities. This speaks volumes for the competence of our scientists and the institutions in which they serve. That is why this is an opportunity for all of us to convey our appreciative thanks once again to the CSIR that is performing a herculean task in this field.

The hon member for Welkom referred to the objectives of the CSIR and singled out a few of the challenges the CSIR still has to meet. These are of course formidable challenges if we take into consideration that South Africa is a developing country and that in various spheres many opportunities still exist for scientists. In the nature of things our research is geared to different things. In our country we are not concerned about putting a man on the moon. In this country, a developing country, we are more concerned with doing basic research in the sphere of industrial development, water supply, and various other spheres which have possibilities for practical application and in that way helping this part of the world to develop further. I thank the hon member for his contribution and the ideas he expressed in this connection.

The hon member for Sunnyside referred to the international renown the CSIR has won for itself. That is true. An aspect which we are perhaps not always sufficiently aware of is that scientists of the RSA, and also those in the employ of the CSIR, enjoy an international reputation and also receive exceptional recognition. There are many international scientific societies on which South African scientists serve, societies that respect them for the outstanding work they are doing. It is also important that we try to maintain that liaison, communication and contact. South African scientists also form part of the greater international scientific community and through that contact and liaison, I think, a sound fertilization occurs which benefits science in South Africa in general.

The hon member for Sunnyside is a very senior and experienced hon member of this House. I though that I would be able to learn from a person of his experience, but the hon member has now asked me why reference is made in the legislation to the Minister, whereas I stated in my Second Reading speech that the Cabinet would be the approving authority. The hon member knows very well that in all legislation the Minister is referred to as the responsible person on behalf of the Government. The Minister, and not the Cabinet, bears responsibility for his department. However, he bears a joint responsibility. There is after all, such a thing as the joint responsibility of the Cabinet. If I had referred in my Second Reading speech to the Cabinet, it would not detract from the fact the Minister bears that particular responsibility as the proxy of the Government and the Cabinet. The convention lays down that if there a difference of opinion were to arise in regard to a matter amongst Ministers, the Cabinet is the forum where the matter is settled.

The hon member also referred to the staff of the CSIR and asked inter alia, that they should not be sent against their will to accept responsibilities in neighbouring states or elsewhere. The hon member is correct when he says that one does not expect staff members to accept transfers in that way. For that reason the legislation provides that secondment to the service of another Government or to an area outside the RSA only takes place when the employee agrees to such a move. This applies in respect of territories outside South Africa or in respect of the service of another Government. However, when it comes to transfers within the RSA, the present legislation already provides that employees may be transferred and utilized within the RSA as the CSIR deems fit. I think the hon member will agree that it is important that the CSIR, in discharging its functions, should be able to transfer its staff, for example engineers, in order to utilize them as effectively as possible. I can therefore reassure the hon member that transfers to places outside the RSA will only be effected with the full consent of the employees concerned.

The hon member for Pretoria East made a few interesting observations which we shall certainly have to look at in future. However, I want to draw his attention to the fact that a consolidating Bill does not make provision for any amendments to the legislation. A consolidating Bill is introduced only in order to consolidate the amendments effected by previous statutory measures into a single measure. A problem frequently arises when various amendments had been effected to an Act over a number of years, and this gives rise to confusion. Since the Scientific Research Council Act has been amended on numerous occasions over the years, we are contemplating consolidating legislation. However, I have taken cognizance of the hon member’s remarks, and there will be other opportunities to give attention to those aspects.

As a very practical example of why it is necessary to effect the amendment in respect of the limitation which applies at present to the employees of the CSIR in regard to the alteration of patents, the hon member referred to a person who developed a patent that did not have anything to do with his activities. However, I believe it is necessary—the hon member for Amanzimtoti also referred to this—that we should create this leeway for scientists who are perhaps able, through their hobbies, or other interests, to make a contribution in some other sphere. In my opinion they should be encouraged to do so. They should not be restricted.

†The hon member for Amanzimtoti asked why we are only changing the CSIR legislation now to bring it in line with the Patents Act. Mr Speaker, if I remember correcly, we only introduced the amendment to the Patents Act last year, which is very recent. This is the first opportunity we have had to bring this legislation into line with the Patents Act.

The hon member referred to additional estimates and complained that that is not good budgeting. He said that there is no real control on spending. Indeed, he gave the impression that this amendment enables the Minister simply to spend all the money without informing Parliament. However, the hon member knows full well that each and every additional estimate must eventually be passed by this House. Just like any other additional expenditure, this will be referred to the House in the additional budget, and Parliament will then decide whether that expenditure was at all necessary. The suggestion that it is a rubber stamp is a reflection on Parliament itself, and the hon member knows that.

It is a reflection on the Minister.

It is not so. The hon member will get every opportunity to go into the details of each rand that has been spent in this manner. The aim of this amendment is therefore only to formalize a practice that has already taken place. We regard it as advisable to formalize it as part of the legislation and allow it to take place from time to time when it becomes necessary—and I repeat the word necessary because it provides for instance for increases in salaries which may not have been foreseen when the original budget was drawn up. In the event of any increase in salaries or wages, the problem arises that at the moment no provision is made in the Act for additional estimates, and with this amendment that problem will be solved.

I have already replied to the hon member’s remarks regarding applied research and I agree 100%. I believe that that is a tremendous area which must still be further developed and we are busy doing just that at the moment.

*I thank hon members for their support for this legislation which is aimed at enabling the CSIR to perform its functions more purposefully and more effectively, in the national interests.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr Speaker, I move:

There is a world-wide and growing interest in the small business sector of the economy. In the USA and most other countries in the Western World, most businesses are small and are owned and managed by individuals or small groups of people. It is apparent from this that small businesses, no matter what form of enterprise they represent, form the backbone of free enterprise. In South Africa, small businesses and small industries represent the great majority of all businesses and industries and they employ a considerable percentage of the labour force. This fact has accordingly given rise to the official policy of supporting small businesses.

Under the present dispensation with regard to the various forms of enterprise, the individual entrepreneur may simply make use of a one-man business, or if he wishes the business to have a juristic personality, limited liability and the other benefits of incorporation, he may incorporate a private company with a single member. Where there are two or more entrepreneurs, they have a choice between a partnership and a company.

The Standing Advisory Committee on Company Law which was established in terms of section 18 of the Companies Act, 1973, to advise the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism on the amendment of the Companies Act, has for several years been questioning the applicability of the Companies Act to small businesses incorporated as private companies. There can be no doubt about the increasing complexity of the Companies Act. Many of the legal and other developments are the direct result of problems experienced or caused by big companies, and generally speaking, these developments are also applicable to the small private companies. As a result, the collection of statutory rules and requirements which the small company has to contend with is constantly growing.

As a result of this, the Standing Advisory Committee has investigated the possibility of simplifying the legal position of the small entrepreneur who wishes to use the company as a form of enterprise. At first, the solution seemed to be to incorporate exemptions with regard to small companies into the Companies Act. Consideration was given to this, however, and the Standing Advisory Committee came to the conclusion that it would only increase the complexity of the small company and would further aggravate the problem. In the long run, this does not offer any solution to the problem in a system which encourages small businesses as a matter of policy. A single Act can no longer offer a suitable form of enterprise for the giant organization as well as the small one. For this reason, it has long been the accepted policy in the legal system of the Western European continent to create separate forms of enterprise for the typical big and the typical small business. The Standing Advisory Committee consequently recommended that a new form of enterprise be created for small businesses.

A Bill was then formulated by the Standing Advisory Committee and very widely circulated for comment. It was sent, inter alia, to all professions which deal with companies, other interested parties, the Government departments, universities, the various Judges-President, the organizations representing commerce and industry, etc. Articles on the subject were also published in widely circulating legal journals by Prof S J Naudé, a member of the Standing Advisory Committee. Positive support for the underlying principle of the Bill was received from, inter alia, the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut, Assocom, several universities, the Urban Foundation, the Council for the Promotion of Small Business, the General Bar Council, the Small Business Advisory Bureau, the South African Federated Chamber of Industries, the South African Institute of Chartered Accountants and many other bodies and persons. The detailed comments submitted by all these organizations made it possible to prepare a Bill which would best satisfy all the requirements.

It is clear, from what I have said so far, that the intention with this new dispensation is to create a simpler and cheaper form of enterprise for the individual entrepreneur, or the small group of entrepreneurs, with due regard to their particular needs and without burdening them with statutory requirements which are not significant under the circumstances. It has been possible to achieve this object without sacrificing the benefits and security which an enterprise derives from incorporation.

Several names were considered for this form of enterprise, including “small business corporation”, but the name which has been chosen is “close corporation”, mainly because it is a widely accepted and well-known concept at the international level. It also indicates the intimate relationship which exists between the members among themselves and the members and the body corporate. With regard to the name “small business corporation” it had to be borne in mind, for example, that the Bill placed no restriction on the capital, turnover or profit, or any transaction of the enterprise, and therefore the word “small business” could be completely inappropriate under certain circumstances. I am thinking here, for example, of the wealthy person who incorporates a close corporation to handle all his investments for him. Some of these transactions would certainly not be regarded as small.

The close corporation has no effect on the availability of the existing forms of enterprise, such as the company and the partnership, to an individual entrepreneur or a small group of entrepreneurs. On the contrary, it offers an additional form and supplements the others in an appropriate way.

In addition, provision is being made in clause 27 of the Bill for a simple and cheap method for converting a company into a close corporation, and we intend to amend the Companies Act, 1973, during this Parliamentary session to provide for the conversion of close corporations into companies as well. If this is done, the possible ways of utilizing the various forms of enterprise will be considerably increased.

I am convinced that the hon members of this House will share my excitement and great expectations in respect of this new form of enterprise. This is indeed an historic and unique moment in the development of our law. After all, it is not every day that a new form of enterprise with juristic personality which is destined for general use in the economy is created by the legislature or recognized by the law.

With the creation of this form of enterprise, and especially with certain principles that have been incorporated into the Bill, the Republic has also placed itself among the leaders in this sphere in the Western World.

Mr Speaker, I come now to the characteristics of the close corporation. In terms of clause 2, the proposed close corporation is a full juristic person which offers its members all the advantages of juristic personality—especially continuity of existence notwithstanding changes in its membership and indemnity with regard to any claims of creditors. It should be clearly understood that the close corporation is not an incorporated partnership, but a full-fledged corporation, ie a body with juristic personality, which is being created for a particular purpose.

The incorporation of a close corporation entails the registration of a single document, the so-called founding statement or “stigtingsverklaring”. In terms of clause 12, this must contain particulars relating to the principal business of the close corporation, the names of its members, their interest in the business, etc. This document must be kept up to date at all times by submitting an amended founding statement if there is a change in any of its particulars. However, no other document needs to be submitted to or registered with the Registrar of Close Corporations upon incorporation.

†Mr Speaker, as far as membership of close corporations is concerned, two important requirements determine the availability of this new form of enterprise. In principle only natural persons may become members of close corporations, and juristic persons are excluded. Exceptions are made, however, in instances in which a trustee of a trust, an executor or the trustee of an insolvent member is a legal person. The second requirement relates to the number of members of a close corporation. In terms of clause 10 of the Bill the number is restricted to a maximum of 10 but it may even have a single member. In this regard it is interesting to note that the general feelings of the persons and organizations who submitted representations in respect of the Bill were that 10 would be the ideal maximum number of members for a close corporation.

The exclusion of juristic persons from membership in terms of clause 29 arises from the danger that large companies may convert their subsidiaries into close corporations. This exclusion also means that group formation and the problems to which it gives rise do not have to be provided for. One or more natural persons may, however, have one or more separate close corporations but no juristic person—and this includes a close corporation—may be a member of another close corporation.

On the other hand a close corporation may be a shareholder of, and even control, a company. Where a close corporation does in fact control a company ample safeguards have been introduced in the Bill, which will prevent abuse of that control. Such a close corporation is to be treated as if it were a holding company of a subsidiary company. Clause 55 of the Bill deals adequately with this aspect.

A member does not hold shares in a close corporation; he holds a member’s interest expressed as a percentage. Clauses 34, 35 and 37 provide fully for the transmission of that interest where a member disposes of it, or in the event of his death or his insolvency. In a small company the disposal of the shares of a deceased or retiring member can be a problem. The notorious section 38 of the Companies Act, 1973, prohibits a company to give any financial assistance to any person who wishes to acquire shares in it but lacks the means; in principle the company itself may not purchase those shares.

Both these problems are dealt with in an entirely different way in the Bill. In terms of clauses 39 and 40 a close corporation may buy a member’s interest or give financial assistance in connection with the acquisition of a member’s interest by some other person, provided all members consent, provided the transaction does not cause the close corporation’s liabilities to exceed its assets, and also provided that the close corporation is not rendered unable to pay its debts as they become due in the usual course of its business.

The criteria in this connection will thus be consent, solvency and liquidity. Although a close corporation may buy a member’s interest it may not hold such interest, and upon acquisition this interest is to be added proportionately to the interests of the other members. Hon members, particularly those who are familiar with the complexities of company law, will appreciate that these are significant developments, especially as the company law concept of maintenance of share capital is in fact totally reversed, and the modern and very practical criteria of solvency and liquidity of the close corporation are introduced as the main element for the protection of the creditors.

Mr Speaker, I should like to elaborate a little further on this innovation. In broad outline the concept of maintenance of share capital merely means that the share capital of a limited company constitutes a fund to which creditors of the company must look for the satisfaction of their claims. From this company law concept certain rules emanated, for instance, the prohibition on the payment of dividends to shareholders out of share capital, the prohibition on the purchase by a company of its own shares, and the prohibition on the rendering of financial assistance by a company to any person for the purchase by that person of the company’s shares. These prohibitions will, however, not apply to close corporations if certain basic rules are observed.

These basic rules are, as I have already indicated, tantamount to a test for solvency and liquidity. The test will thus in each case be to determine whether the close corporation is and will still be solvent and liquid after having acquired a member’s interest or after having rendered financial assistance to someone for the acquisition of a member’s interest, or after having made a payment to a member, which can be regarded as a dividend. I will, at a later stage, come back to the aspect of payments which can be regarded as dividends.

Mr Speaker, I turn now to the very important aspect of internal relations. In view of the needs of those involved in small business it is fundamentally important to retain as much flexibility as possible in the internal relations among the members inter se and between the members and their corporation. This is fully provided for in Chapter V. The majority of the rules regulating the internal relations are therefore variable in the sense that they only apply if the association agreement does not provide otherwise. Members may thus vary these rules to suit their personal circumstances by entering into an association agreement in terms of clause 44. There clearly does not have to be an association agreement and, where there is a single member, the question does not even arise. However, if an association agreement exists it must be in writing and must be kept at the close corporation’s registered office. It is important to note that an association agreement can be entered into and amended at any time, and that it is not a registerable document and is not submitted to the Registrar of Close Corporations. The association agreement is in fact an open door through which members of a close corporation can incorporate various provisions applicable to the close corporation concerned, such as a more elaborate dispensation governing meetings, a particular division of powers, the manner in which voting rights are to be determined etc.

The Bill does not require a close corporation to have a board of directors as in the case of a company. Members can, however, in an association agreement exclude one or some members from management, or allocate all powers to manage the affairs of the close corporation to a single member.

*Mr Speaker, an important new principle is being introduced by clause 51 in respect of the payment of money by the close corporation to members merely by virtue of the fact that they are members. Such payments, which may be regarded as the equivalent of dividends, can only be made if, after such payment is made, the close corporation’s assets exceed its liabilities; if the close corporation is able to pay its debts as they become due in the ordinary course of its business; and if such payment will in the particular circumstances not in fact render the corporation unable to pay its debts as they become due. So the criteria remain solvency and liquidity throughout. Apart from the above-mentioned payments, of course, a close corporation can always pay salaries and remuneration to its employees, including members, for services actually rendered for purposes of the business.

The Bill does not impose a single administrative duty which is not meaningful or which is not regarded as essential, taking into consideration the characteristics of this form of enterprise. The result, Mr Speaker, is that provision is being made for only a few prescribed forms, for example, for the founding statement and an amended founding statement, for an application for the conversion of a company into a close corporation, and for the voluntary winding-up of a close corporation.

Another important aspect which should be mentioned is accounting responsibilities. It is deemed essential that close corporations should be required to keep proper accounting records so as to be able to report to its members and to provide essential information in the event of liquidation. Full provision is made for this in clause 56. Annual financial statements also have to be drawn up in respect of every financial year. Furthermore, a close corporation is required in terms of clause 59 to have an accountant. In this connection it should be noted that although the members of the South African Institute of Chartered Accountants obviously qualify for appointment, other professions that are adequately qualified for the role of accountant may also be admitted in due course.

The question of whether a formal audit, as required in the case of companies, should be a requirement in the case of close corporations as well, is an important but also a difficult question. The Bill does not require an audit. However, the accountant will have to report on the annual financial statements, and in this report he will have to state, among other things, whether the annual financial statements are in agreement with the accounting records of the close corporation.

It is clear that the Bill lays down only the minimum requirements. It is quite possible, therefore, that annual financial statements may be subjected to a formal audit if members wish this to be done for their own requirements or where a prospective creditor requires that it be done for the purposes of a transaction.

I should like to mention with appreciation the valuable contribution made by Prof Steele and the Accounting Department of the University of the Witwatersrand and the Institute of Chartered Accountants in the formulation and consideration of the provisions dealing with accounting responsibilities and the financial aspects relating to the conversion of companies into close corporations. Without the assistance of these experts from the practical sphere, it would have been difficult to evaluate the relevant principles and to formulate the provisions in such a way as to ensure the greatest possible support.

You will notice from clause 58 that the annual financial statements of a close corporation must be drawn up “in conformity with generally accepted accounting practice, appropriate to the business of the corporation”. It is important to note that these rules of practice will not be the same as those formulated by the Accounting Practices Board in respect of companies. The Instiute of Chartered Accountants has undertaken to help identify the accounting standards which are desirable for close corporations, so that the Accounting Practices Board, which is charged with investigating and approving “generally accepted accounting practice”, may determine what the concept should entail with regard to close corporations as well. It is interesting to note that this board is a body consisting of representatives of commerce and industry and is not representative of only one profession or a few professions.

For practical reasons, and as a matter of policy, technical legislation of this nature should not rely heavily on criminal law for the enforcement of its provisions. For this reason, the Bill has to a large extent been decriminalized, and two other methods have been introduced as sanctions for non-compliance with the requirements. In the first place, reliance is being placed on self-enforcement or self-regulation, in the sense that members who fail to comply with the relatively few rules of the system may lose their limited liability and may acquire joint and several liability with the close corporation for the debts of the latter. This aspect is fully regulated by clauses 63, 64 and 65. Secondly, the Registrar is being authorized in a few cases to impose a fine, which will have the force of a civil sentence and which it will be possible to recover as such.

Before I conclude, I should like to express my appreciation and that of the Department of Industries and Commerce for the very great contribution made by the Standing Advisory Committee, and especially by Prof S J Naudé as a member of that committee, in the formulation and drafting of this Bill. Prof Naudé acquitted himself of his task in this connection in an extremely competent manner and with great enthusiasm and dedication, and I am convinced that without his help and without the able leadership of the Hon Mr Justice G S Margo, as chairman of the Standing Advisory Committee, it would not have been easy to introduce such an excellent product in this House.

I do not doubt the desirability and the importance of this Bill, and I trust that this measure will make a special contribution in the economy of South Africa.

Mr Speaker, it is not often that this House is presented with such an imaginative piece of legislation. Not only is it imaginative, but because it has been drafted by professionals who really know their job and who have been involved with corporate legislation over a considerable period of time, it is also an extremely realistic piece of legislation. The Bill is the result of several years of work by the Standing Advisory Committee and it stems from the realization that the Companies Act has been called upon to cover too wide a spectrum with the result that it cannot adequately cover both the giant public company at the one end of the scale and then the small private company or even the informal sector at the other end. For us the position is even more serious. It is common cause, that peaceful change depends on the more equitable participation of all our peoples in our economy. Strenuous efforts are being made to encourage Black entrepreneurs. If the Companies Act represents something which even the small businessman finds difficulty in dealing with, what possible hope does a new man who comes into the free enterprise system have of understanding it and being able to work with it? The Bill before the House creates far more sensible divisions of this spectrum of business which ranges from the impersonal sector to the complex public company. With the concept of close corporations it establishes a far simpler and more easily administered structure which is appropriate to the needs of an emergent entrepreneur.

It is to be hoped that a large number of private companies will migrate across this line between the close corporation and the private company. I have no doubt that this will be an ongoing process because for the man who is interested in running his own business and not creating an empire, the close corporation contains all the essential advantages he needs but avoids some of the hassles which the extremely complex Companies Act causes today. For example, it gives him the ability to trade as a legal person. It is also an ongoing body capable of giving continuity to members and enabling them to pass on their interests through succession. It retains the concepts of limited liability which is cardinal to any enterprise. Other countries have moved in the same direction and they too have realized the incompatibility of covering the colossus in the corporate world and the small business with a common legislative blanket.

Our problem, for the reasons already given, is much greater. The architects of this Bill studied what the EEC had done and considered what the British thoughts on the subject were. The United States integrated trust corporation statutes were also studied and they then came up with something completely original. They achieved attempts to adjust the Companies Act to make it appropriate for these small businesses as well. This was very wise as it is already proving inappropriate for both the small private companies and the big companies. They realize that attempts to make it cover both would make it even more complex and even less comprehensible to the emergent entrepreneur.

It was decided to replace the maintenance of capital as the complement to limitation of liability with an entirely different concept in respect of close corporations. This new concept is solvency and liquidity, and I think it is a highly imaginative approach to this problem. The capital of a conventional company is safeguarded by various provisions but these, as we all know, are safeguards which can easily be bypassed, for example, by major loan accounts.

It is quite possible that the requirement for the close corporation to be both liquid and solvent before and after certain payments to members will improve the security of people trading with such an organization. Although there is nothing to prevent a close corporation growing to any size in terms of turnover and assets, the close corporation is an organizational structure which is really designed for the small trading unit. Members must be natural persons and there should not be more than 10 such members. This ensures that corporations cannot become subsidiaries of large groups enabling such groups to avoid the complex legislation that must apply to them because of the split between ownerşhip and management control as well as the possible abuses which can arise from this situation.

We have therefore embarked for the economic future on an entirely new type of vessel which is strange and exciting. The close corporation will be controlled by an Act of only 83 sections which will be incorporated in one single document. It will have no directors, no auditors and no annual general meeting. A founding statement must be lodged with the Registrar but the corporation will therefore not be called upon to lodge any regular returns with him. For someone who hates forms as much as I do it sounds almost too good to be true. Its architects proudly state that the corporation will not be asked to fulfil any single administrative duty that is not absolutely necessary. I say: Why did they not come earlier?

We have all been around long enough to realize that a degree of control over business behaviour is necessary. The beauty of this legislation is that control remains but that red tape is removed. Indeed, it could be that control is actually more effective than the existing disciplines. We all know that the provisions of the Companies Act are actually bypassed all the time. They are honoured more in the breach than in the observance. Offences have been decriminalized and have become civil offences.

The control exercised over close corporations will, however, be subtle and effective. Firstly, members forfeit the protection for which they actually formed that close corporation if they transgress the provisions of the legislation as listed in clause 63. They consequently expose themselves to the full financial consequences of their actions if they do that.

Secondly, a member’s fiduciary relationship with his corporation is set out in clauses 42 and 43, together with the effects on him if he does not abide by those. The structure of a close corporation and the type of control exercised over it results in a far more informal organization than a conventional company. The concept is one of working partners who co-operate in a legal persona with all the benefits of perpetual succession and insulation from claims. Their charter is their founding statement and members have equal rights to represent their corporation. Infinite flexibility is actually made available to them through the mechanism of the association agreement. Through this they could for example designate who should run the company or what powers individuals should have. It is a highly flexible method of dealing with this particular problem.

It would appear that a lot of emphasis is being placed on the office of accountant. Clauses 60, 61 and 62 outline their qualifications, rights and duties. Clause 63 even stipulates that members lose their limited liability status if the office of accountant is vacant for more than six mouths. My concern is not that this is not effective in principle; I am just concerned whether there will be enough accountants. No doubt that will be sorted out over a period.

I have one concern on which the hon the Minister can perhaps reassure me. My concern relates to the ability of a close corporation to own and presumably control companies and pyramid companies. It can control limited liability companies. Although the Bill provides that in these circumstances the close corporation will be treated as a holding company will we not evolve towards a company structure the pattern of which will be for a close corporation to control groups of companies and other holding companies because of the advantages, for example, confidentiality and administrative requirements, that a close corporation will enjoy?

Lastly, there is an aspect of the close corporation which is a by-product of its creation, and which I am sure never even crossed the minds of its architects. Everybody is very concerned about the increasing concentration of ownership of companies in fewer and fewer hands. The problem is that people who start a company and build it up end up with all their assets in that company. Then they are aware that should they die estate duty will have to be paid and that they have no assets with which to pay other than the assets which are locked up in the company. This is the classic reason for the sale of private companies.

In terms of the structure of a close corporation, that will not quite be the case. A close corporation can use its assets, provided it is both liquid and solvent, to purchase a member’s shares. I believe and hope that the compulsion to sell a successful close corporation to a big company will be far less than it has frequently been to sell private companies.

Mr Speaker, there is another aspect that I have not dealt with and that is the question of tax implications for a close corporation. This is quite significant but this matter will be dealt with at some later stage by the hon member for Edenvale. We will probably move some amendments at the Committee Stage, but I believe that this is a most imaginative, far-sighted piece of legislation, and we on this side of the House have great pleasure in associating ourselves with it.

Mr Speaker, I think we have here another part of a jig-saw puzzle which we are slowly completing. It takes the form of a strategy to help the small business in South Africa. The Government has already gone a long way in this direction, because we all realize that the small business is one of our major employers, and that they actually represent the beginnings of the big enterprise. The establishment of the Small Business Corporation gave us an indication of the direction in which the Government was moving. I want to thank the hon member for Walmer for his support of this legislation, and to congratulate him on the important point he made in referring to the non-White population groups that are now gradually entering the business world through informal organizations. In my opinion, the close corporation will do much to help these people to move more rapidly into the capitalist system.

We are not the only ones who are giving serious attention to the small businessman. The White House ordered a special investigation into the problems of the small business enterprise in 1980, and the recommendations submitted to the President are quite interesting. The first recommendation concerns the problem of obtaining capital and the problem that small businesses do not enjoy the benefits of tax deductions. The investigating committee also pointed out that the small businessman found it very difficult to retain his profits and that taxes had a more negative effect on the small businessman than on the big enterprise.

A second point which received the attention of the investigating committee was the problem of overregulation, of red tape. It is interesting that it was mentioned in the report that too much attention was being given to reporting requirements. This has an adverse effect on small businesses, because they do not have the staff to prepare reports of that kind. The committee also says, among other things, that the form of taxation applicable to the small businessman is too complicated. Incidentally, special attempts are made in this Bill to improve this position.

The third point which received attention was the way in which the private sector could assist with the management of small businesses. The business sector is being assisted by means of training, for example, but it is interesting to note that the small businessman is unable to make use of the assistance which is offered, because he does not have the in-service training programmes which the big organizations have.