Mr Chairman, I want to react briefly to the extraordinary speech made yesterday by the hon member for Pietermaritzburg South. For someone who claims to be interested in education it is amazing that he could refer to the Natal Teachers’ Society, of which I am a past president and very proud of that fact, as a political body and that he could call upon it to give up its political involvements and interests. [Interjections.] If he is saying that to believe in non-racial education, which is what the Natal Teachers’ Society believes in, is political, may I ask him where he and the NP stand when they believe in racial education? Is that suddenly not political, Mr Chairman? After that speech I can well understand why that hon member is a member of the NP, because it is the NP itself—I want to stress this point—that politicized education in this country in the first instance, and if he believes that education and politics can now be separated after 40 years of NP rule, then he is even more naive than his speech yesterday made him out to be. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, is the hon member totally ignorant of the fact that the turmoil and unrest in this country over the past few years have as their basis the educational policy of the NP? [Interjections.] I ask you, Sir, never to forget the hurt and subsequent chaos that this policy has caused this country. The hon member for Pietermaritzburg South is one of the last people who should talk about education, because it was the Natal Provincial Council, of which he was a member, that sold the fine system of education in Natal down the river—a system that had been in operation for 76 years. Now he says the Natal Teachers’ Society, which fights for what it believes in on behalf of its members, should not be political. Mr Chairman, that simply does not make sense.

To return to educational matters, however, I want to ask the hon the Minister certain questions in relation to special schools and, in particular, to those training centres now known as schools for severely mentally handicapped children.

These schools were recently under the control of the Department of National Education, but have now been returned to the control of the Department of Education and Culture. I would like to ask the hon the Minister whether he anticipates any further change in the control of these schools, particularly with regard to the functions of the governing bodies. Are there in fact to be changes in the functions and terms of reference of the governing bodies of these schools? I ask this question particularly in terms of the recent announcement to the effect that there will be a transfer of functions in connection with the composition of these governing bodies, and I quote:

This wording is very vague and I want to ask for some clarity on how this announcement will now affect these governing bodies.

Secondly, it is an established fact that five of the nine members of these governing bodies are nominated by the so-called sponsoring body despite the fact that in general—and there are a few exceptions here—the sponsoring bodies provide less than 1% of the total running costs, including salaries, of these schools. The hon the Minister himself nominates only four members to the governing body.

In view of the planned changes, are changes to be made to this formula as well, with perhaps the education departments of the provincial departments nominating members in future instead of, or as well as, the Department of National Education, and will the sponsoring bodies continue to play the same role?

Thirdly, at this stage these schools are not represented on regional councils or school boards. Is this likely to change?

In conclusion, I ask the hon the Minister whether there are to be changes with regard to the whole financing structure for these schools as they, for good reason, have a different pupil-teacher ratio compared to ordinary schools, have a very different system of budgeting and receive a far greater grant from the Government than do the ordinary schools. At the same time they have to fend for themselves to a large extent. Is this likely to change so that special schools will be brought into line with other schools in the provinces?

Mr Chairman, the question of the growth of this hon Minister’s empire is one we have to examine very carefully. [Interjections.] It has been said that this hon Minister’s department is shrinking in terms of numbers, and that is quite correct. This year he has 11 000 fewer pupils than he had last year.

However, I think this hon the Minister owes the House an explanation as to why his department, particularly at headquarters level, has seen fit to advertise in the Sunday papers for three heads of department posts at R62 000 per post, which looks to me like a package deal of a quarter of a million rand for those three posts, when it is a shrinking department. It has been said by this hon Minister in answer to a question I asked that the Commission for Administration, after investigation, in fact recommended that these posts be established. I am very interested in this, and will be asking the Minister responsible for the Commission for Administration questions on this matter in the future. However, I think this hon the Minister owes us an explanation as to why that empire is growing.

Very briefly, Mr Chairman, I want to ask three quick questions about technical matters. First of all, regarding admissions to technikons the hon the Minister of National Education had the following to say in the House of Representatives only last week:

I want to ask this hon Minister whether he intends making any changes in the near future to the present policy of quotas which restricts certain technikons to maintaining a White student population of between 88% and 98%. The second quick point I want to make concerns the teachers’ training colleges. We are aware that a Bill to control and administer these colleges is on the cards. We are expecting this legislation. I want to ask the hon Minister whether this legislation will place the hon the Minister of National Education in a position to oversee these teacher training colleges or whether they will still remain an own affair.

Turning away directly from this hon Minister’s department and its effects I want to comment very briefly on the universities. When the other hon Minister of Education—the Minister of National Education who is striding in confidently now—talked at length about the universities last week, I really wondered why he had done so. It then became clear that he wanted to talk about all universities and not just the ones that were directly affected by this hon Minister.

Are you going to talk about UCT? [Interjections.]

That is fine by me. If that means that the Universities of Wits and Natal carry out a certain activity or are willing to listen to their students, then the same policy or attitude must apply to Stellenbosch, Pretoria, Medunsa or Western Cape. I want to make it quite clear, however, that the PFP is strongly opposed to the goings-on on the UCT campus in the past day or two. “Students block Worrall’s speech.”

That is news to us! [Interjections.]

Those who are laughing have obviously not read some of the Sunday newspapers, because I issued a statement on this matter last week. [Interjections.] I said that it was up to every university establishment to enforce standards of discipline and conduct on its staff and students. Such standards should be explicit and agreed upon by the various levels of representation, viz the SRC, the senate and the council at each university.

Naturally we believe that academic freedom and freedom of speech should apply on each campus and in this regard we express our displeasure with the recent restrictions placed either by university establishments or by student behaviour through which the freedom of students to hear particular views were curtailed. Such restrictions are not acceptable, whether they come as a result of student behaviour, university prohibition or ministerial fiat.

Let us be quite clear about it that we are extremely unhappy that the hon member for Houghton could not speak at Wits or that Conor Cruse O’Brien could not complete his lecturing at UCT.

We are equally convinced that no student behaviour or university prevention should block figures of the left, the right or the centre from speaking at any university to which they are invited.

The ANC as well?

Our views on violence on the campus are similar. We condemn unreservedly terrorising and the stoning of cars. No institution can or should tolerate such behaviour on the part of its members. Action, firm and judicial, must be taken swiftly in each case.

But surely you people are becoming “ verkramp” now! [Interjections.]

However, we must also read Denis Beckett’s view in Frontline of the events at Wits. There is also another view. It is one of “the undeserved suppression of peaceful protest”. Here we want to make a clear distinction. Quite clearly, this undeserved suppression must and should be stopped immediately.

Mr Chairman, before I respond to hon members I wish in particular to discuss tertiary education and, later on, cultural advancement. I request the attention of hon members regarding the universities and technikons under the jurisdiction of my department.

The autonomy of tertiary institutions determines that the Department of Education and Culture and the tertiary institutions should function on a basis of partnership and mutual co-operation. In accordance with this policy I have met the principals and the chairmen of council of the 11 universities individually. Since these discussions took place there has been a greater understanding of the respective points of view. The financial realities of the country have forced us to take stock. As a result, curbs have been placed on growth at universities in order to ensure their continued financial well-being. The minor details are still being finalised in close co-operation with each individual university. With this curb on growth, universities will be in a position to effect greater financial stability over the next few years. We believe that this will be to the benefit of the whole country.

On two occasions I met the rectors of the eight technikons and in-depth discussions were held. Problem areas were discussed. Ways in which technikons can make their particular expertise available to the citizens of our country are being determined in close co-operation with the rectors of these important institutions.

Although education is an own affair, my department wishes to render services wherever a need exists. We shall however be careful not to harm the character and aims of the technikons which are in the process of establishing their meaningful roles in the tertiary sphere.

The subsidisation of the running costs of tertiary institutions is determined in terms of approved formulae. These formulae are designed to satisfy the requirements of these particular institutions. The subsidy formulae are the responsibility of my colleague, the hon the Minister of National Education. There is however close and continuous consultation between my department and the Department of National Education. I wish today to place on record my sincere appreciation for this close co-operation which is to our mutual benefit. I am confident that with a sound spirit of co-responsibility and mutual involvement as a foundation, tertiary education will go from strength to strength.

The now well-perceived A-value is used to adjust formulae amounts to financial realities. The A-values are determined by a process of negotiation between the hon Ministers responsible for education departments and the hon the Minister of National Education. He negotiates with the hon the Minister of Finance on the educational dispensation as a whole.

A-values are and will remain the mechanism by which own affairs departments will manage the distribution of funds. The amounts currently generated by formulae have to be scaled down to match the availability of funds.

Based on the growth in the number of students the granting of loans for the erection of new buildings and the improvement of grounds is also dealt with in accordance with approved formulae and the funds available. This is a further step to confirm the relative autonomy of tertiary institutions. Backlogs in building programmes at universities and technikons are still receiving the serious attention of my department.

*I wish to make a few observations, also in response to the very knowledgeable contribution made by the hon member for Walmer. It was an authoritative contribution, and we are very grateful for the fact that the hon member, with his knowledge acquired over many years of experience in the tertiary sector of education, is able to be present in this House and to give us the benefit of his well-considered and very balanced opinion, which is based on experience gained in the past.

The hon member mentioned the concept of academic freedom, and I should like to elaborate on that. I should like to discuss the subject of academic freedom with hon members and to introduce other points of view.

Academic freedom is handled responsibly by most universities, and I want to concede that at once. On behalf of the Government I highly commend those universities where academic freedom is in fact dealt with in the right way.

Academic freedom means the freedom of academics and students to search for the truth and to make it public without any hindrance, but in a responsible way. It does not mean that some students and members of staff at universities are entitled to behave in a way which cannot be reconciled with the public interest, as recently happened.

Because thousands of rands of taxpayers’ money are spent on each student every year, the citizens of South Africa are entitled to the tertiary institutions to ensure that this academic freedom will be combined with academic responsibility. The universities and technikons should conduct themselves in such a way, therefore, that the privileges they enjoy will not be prejudiced. Abuse of academic freedom may cause society to lose confidence in these institutions. The community and the Government feel that the more autonomy an institution is allowed, the more responsibly it should act, and vice versa. One wonders whether the convocations and the sponsors of the various universities are not affected by these events. Surely it is inconceivable that the political unrest on a small number of campuses should not disturb the moneyed interests that sponsor these institutions. The prerequisite for profit in any organisation is order and discipline, after all. It is inconceivable that any responsible organisation should, as a shareholder, tolerate disorder. Similarly, the State, which has a major interest in universities, will not tolerate anarchy and disorder at these institutions.

The community and the Government have the right to know what the university authorities are doing about this state of affairs. More and more, this is the refrain I am getting from parents who are not prepared to tolerate this state of affairs on a small number of campuses. Parents certainly care whether their children are fully utilising the opportunities for study or not.

†My department is also aware of the efforts of radical elements aimed at the overthrow of the current educational dispensation. We are conscious of the fact that not only leftist radicals from outside the system, but also groups and individuals within the system are actively undermining our educational principles. We are aware that students of education at certain universities and colleges are openly but also often subtly being brainwashed with information which gives a misrepresentation of the educational system in our schools.

Not only is the structure of White education attacked but teaching methods, textbooks and syllabi too come under fire. These students are indoctrinated to believe that so-called alternative education is the panacea for the educational problems of our country.

The authorities at these universities must ask themselves whether they are satisfied with the quality of tuition offered by these faculties and with the preparation their students receive to enable them to teach in our schools after they have qualified. When considering candidates for appointment, management bodies of schools often seriously contemplate whether the products of some institutions should not be avoided rather than appointed.

I call upon the tertiary institutions in South Africa to exercise their autonomy with responsibility so that teaching and research, which is their true role, may flourish. A university has a responsibility to busy itself with scientific thought. In the process it may criticise the Government if it deems it necessary but if a university exceeds its traditional functions, the responsibility of the State to support it by means of public funds falls away.

*I want to make it quite clear that it is obviously of the greatest importance that our universities should be able to provide an excellent service. Of course, the universities also make a special contribution to the development of students who eventually mean a great deal to this country. It is also important, of course, that universities should project a good image internationally of the country in which they are situated. One of the ways in which this can be done is by means of visits to overseas countries by some of their lecturers. However, it is necessary that we should all work in concert to achieve this end. I am very grateful to the hon member for Pinetown, who stated the standpoint of the PFP in this connection this afternoon.

†I want to respond now to the speech of the hon member for Pinetown. Both he and the hon member for Cape Town Gardens intimated that I was not in a position to decide what type of education English-speaking children should receive. They implied that as an Afrikaner, I had no right to prescribe in regard to schools for the English-speaking community.

As a Minister!

It is clear, however, that both these hon members confuse the office of Minister with his person. I, or any other person who may be appointed to this portfolio, am appointed in terms of the appropriate Acts of this Parliament which I have to administer. May I add that I hold this post by virtue of the fact that not only Afrikaners, but also thousands of English-speakers, returned this Government to office at the polling booths.

Hear, hear!

The hon member for Pinetown also melodramatically—as we have come to expect of him—posed a number of questions regarding tuition fees under draft education legislation, namely: Will the provincial education councils discuss tuition fees? My answer is, yes. The second question was: Will they have the opportunity to comment on the new Education Act? Again my answer is, yes.

True to his style, the hon member also made a number of disparaging remarks regarding the discussions and consultations currently in progress on tuition fees. My department does not apologise for the fact that in order to continue to be able to provide education of the highest order it is constantly exploring ways and means whereby to accomplish this. In the course of its efforts in this regard it is only natural that possibilities such as compulsory tuition fees will be investigated. It is equally self-evident that a department will enlist the aid of its partners in the course of these investigations. I wish to assure the hon member that the department will not deviate from its policy of consultation.

Regarding his sarcastic reference to the formula applied in the financing of education, may I educate the hon member and remind him that the formula is the responsibility of the Minister of National Education, as he knows—I hope!

I may mention, however, that the formula makes specific provision for a number of particular functions, as well as global provision for other categories of functions, inter alia, pre-primary education. The formula does, therefore, make provision for preprimary education.

Finally, I wish to refer to the hon member’s comments with regard to my department. We definitely do not view these derogatory remarks in a serious light. May I also set the hon member’s mind at rest regarding our alleged “dangerous and dubious” practices. As an acknowledged expert in this field, he can rest assured that his reputation as a prime exponent is in no danger at all. The department believes in the principles and the cause it serves and requires no dubious strategy to further its aims.

*The hon member for Claremont saw fit to discuss certain matters across the floor, particularly the fact that the Cape Town Teachers’ College had been denied the right to admit people of colour. The hon member is entitled to put questions to me about this. However, I find it incomprehensible that this hon member, who, if I am correct, is at present a member of the council of that college, should adopt such a sanctimonious attitude about the opening of this Cape Town Teachers’ College, for according to my information, this is the very same institution that refused to admit a highly rated Afrikaans-speaking student a few years ago on the grounds that she would not fit in with the so-called “English ethos of our college”. [Interjections.] My question is …

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

No, Sir, I am not prepared to answer a question at this stage. The hon member will just have to take his medicine now. He can come back to this later.

Yes, but I was not there at the time.

No, of course the hon member was not there. I accepted that. Or does the fact that the hon member was not there mean that the college is completely different now? Has he now laid down the policy of the college? [Interjections.] That is all I wanted to say to the hon member.

Order!

I come now to the hon the member for Pietermaritzburg South. In speaking on rationalisation in general last night, the hon member for Pietermaritzburg referred to the Natal College of Education. I want to respond to the hon member’s comments. May I reassure that hon member that I am most sympathetically disposed towards the case he put so feelingly. The very fact that this college has been given a definite role in further teaching training should show our sincerity.

I associate myself with his remarks with regard to parental involvement. With such an approach to provincial education councils the success of these important ventures is assured. The hon member’s views on the Mentor faction of the Natal Teachers’ Society have, I think, been soundly endorsed by the voters of Natal.

Hear, hear!

An investigation is currently being conducted to ensure that all backlogs in building programmes at universities and technikons, and therefore also in Natal, are taken into account.

*The hon member for Delmas devoted most of his speech to two matters concerning two particular schools. I want to invite the hon member to come and discuss these individual cases with my department and myself. As far as the Du Preez van Wyk Primary School is concerned. I want to tell the hon member that the building which is to replace the present one at the school is already on the planning list for 1987-88, and as soon as the planning has been completed, the building operations will commence.

The hon member for Bloemfontein East made a very interesting contribution about vocational guidance in schools. In particular, he broke a lance for the teachers who were doing extremely important work in this connection. I thank him sincerely for doing so.

And then there is the hon member for Potgietersrus. [Interjections.] I want to tell the hon member that he can relax now. Everyone in this House has noticed him and taken cognisance of the fact that he is sitting in this House. [Interjections.] I see that the hon member asked whether I had mentioned the creation of three positions of chief director in the central department and the simultaneous final phasing out of three deputy director posts in the provinces and whether I had mentioned the Federal Teachers’ Council in this connection. I want to refer the hon member to my Hansard. There the hon member will find that I never mentioned the Federal Teachers’ Council in this connection. I do not think it is necessary for me to spend any more time on this hon member.

I should like to bring another matter to the attention of hon members. There has been a report in the newspapers and certain hon members have referred to the fact that in the Transvaal in particular, a large number of teachers have resigned. The department keeps abreast of matters such as resignations and possible shortages of teachers, because this is a serious matter. I want to indicate, however, that although the general pattern of resignations during the first six months of this year does not differ materially from that of 1986, my department and I are very much aware of the resignation of teachers in the so-called scarce subjects and that this remains a source of concern to us. The erroneous impression exists that there is an oversupply of teachers. This may be true in some disciplines, but not in respect of scarce subjects; in fact, the resignation of teachers in these subjects gives rise to concern.

Mr Chairman, I should now like to concentrate on the cultural aspect, which has also been very thoroughly canvassed here. As I have said, the department is a unit in which education and culture are combined. You will allow me to say, Sir, that excellent contributions have been made in this connection from this side of the House, and I am struck by the fact that, with the exception of one hon member of the CP, who objected to the fact that no provision had been made under this Vote for the festival to commemorate the Groot Trek, not a single hon member of the CP or the PFP devoted his speech to culture. [Interjections.] I am particularly struck by the fact that these great saviours of the people did not talk about culture.

Of course we did!

They do not know what culture is! [Interjections.]

The preservation and development of culture, which is an on-going task, remains primarily the responsibility of the community, I believe. The department merely supports its partners, the cultural organisations that perform this important task all over the country every day, as well as the private sector, which promotes culture by way of sponsorships, among other things.

Your Broederbond pals!

The department provides an essential auxiliary service in the sphere of culture. It upholds the principle that the State itself cannot preserve or develop culture, but that culture can only be healthy and vital when it emanates from the people themselves; when it is practised and controlled by the people themselves, and not channelled in a specific direction by the State. We recognise and support the autonomy of voluntary organisations functioning within the community.

Would you consider an application from the Volkswag?

I shall answer the hon member’s question presently. He must just be patient for a while. He can sit back and relax. I shall deal with that later. [Interjections.]

Order!

Within the framework of my department’s involvement in the promotion of culture I want to associate myself whole-heartedly with the hon the State President’s statement on 19 May 1987. He pointed out the need for individual rights, minority rights and minority groups to be protected in a multicultural country such as South Africa.

How?

We do not want to be a group; we want to be a people! [Interjections.]

In a democracy, the State has the responsibility and the authority to guarantee the identity and the survival of each individual cultural group.

How?

In fact, that is a precondition for stability. This Government recognises, in terms of the Constitution and other relevant Acts, the right of each cultural group to preserve and promote its own culture independently in accordance with its own philosophy, needs and aspirations. The Government also accepts its responsibility to enable every cultural group to develop its own culture with the Government’s help.

However, there are some aspects of culture that affect all the population groups. In 1988—next year—we shall have an opportunity to direct attention to three such aspects. I am referring in particular to the three major festivals that are to be held next year. We shall be commemorating the arrival of Batholomeus Diaz on South African soil 500 years ago. It will also be 300 years since the first group of French refugees arrived at the Cape, and 150 years since the Voortrekkers set out on their journey into the unknown and inhospitable interior.

On 17 June this year, a replica of Diaz’s caravel was launched in Portugal. At the same time, our ties of friendship with Portugal were strengthened. The programmes for the national, regional and local festivals have been finalised and are likely to forge an even closer bond between the various cultural groups. The expression “unity in diversity” could be made even more meaningful by these festivals. [Interjections.]

In 1988 we shall also be celebrating the arrival of 150 Hugenots at the Cape. The legacy of this small group of devout Protestant refugees is of particular significance to us. Their contribution to our country in the religious, cultural and agricultural spheres has been of inestimable value. Although several aspects will receive attention during the Huguenot Festival, it will be primarily a religious festival, culminating in a religious service at the Huguenot Monument at Franschhoek. Protestant churches of all four provinces will devote special attention to the commemoration of the Huguenots’ arrival.

The Groot Trek is usually associated with the Afrikaners only, but during the commemorative festival, the significance of the Trek for the whole of South Africa and Southern Africa should also be emphasised. After all, the Groot Trek laid the foundation for modern South Africa by opening up the interior to Western civilisation and establishing the republican ideal.

In connection with the festivals to commemorate the Groot Trek I want to appeal to festival organisers and to young people to ensure that folk dances are included in the festival programmes just as they were in 1938 and 1949. In every country in the world, after all, traditional folk dances are a visible expression of the nation’s pride in its culture, and we would be impoverished if we neglected them in our own country.

Is that in connection with the …

Order!

Just allow me to complete my argument. If there is any time left at the end, the hon member may ask me a question.

I trust that Afrikaans literature will also receive the attention it deserves on the occasion of this festival, for as the Afrikaner nation has grown, so has its literature. Our earlier poets in particular, such as Jan F E Celliers, Louis Leipoldt, Eugene Marais, Langenhoven, Totius and others who gave voice to the deepest feelings of our emergent nation. As in every literature, the study of these pioneers must not be neglected. These classical poets have had a lasting influence on our cultural life, an influence which it has not been possible to destroy, but which should rather guide us on the road that lies ahead. [Interjections.]

Equally important has been the contribution of our composers and singers who have left a cultural treasure of folk songs. The work of the FAK in this connection is deeply appreciated and I trust that our folk songs will not only feature prominently on the festival programmes, but will also be revived and performed more frequently.

Like the literary arts, the plastic arts, too, are important means of cultural expression. For this reason my department is negotiating to acquire the Coert Steynberg Collection so that it may be preserved for the nation as a cultural treasure. The entire Western World has been experiencing a cultural crisis in recent decades in which the existence of cultural groups and identities is being threatened. We have not escaped this either.

It is urgently necessary, therefore, that the State should now give more support to individual cultural groups so that they may be even better able to resist this onslaught themselves. However, it will only be possible for the State to provide more support if the structure within which culture is promoted by the State is developed as a matter of urgency, but in a responsible way, within the financial means of the country. It would make me very happy if the financial position of the country were to improve sufficiently to enable us to make much more money available for the promotion of our cultural activities at various levels.

Would you consider an application from the Volkswag?

The hon member is being tedious. I have already told him that I shall reply to him. [Interjections.]

With this end in view, a steering committee of inquiry into the promotion of culture was appointed, which included both Afrikaans and English-speaking representatives of the respective cultural sectors. This committee has virtually completed its report. In this report, a full and well-founded strategy for the promotion of culture in the RSA is spelt out.

In addition, a work study investigation of the structure of the Cultural Affairs Directorate is nearing completion. Investigation is aimed at achieving an effective and functional structure which will meet the requirements of the times. I am sure that the structure which is brought into being will form the nucleus of a vital cultural awareness on the part of all groups, to the benefit of all in our country.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

In what connection?

In connection with what the hon the Minister has just said.

I am going to deal with it presently. If the hon member still wants to ask me a question afterwards, he is welcome to do so.

I want to come back to contributions made by hon members on the subject of culture, and I want to refer at once to the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke. I think the hon member for Sundays River has already dealt very ably with the matter raised by the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke. [Interjections.] He really pointed out the problem with which this party was grappling.

You people think the NP always does everything ably.

Hon members, and especially this loquacious hon member, repeatedly asked—he has just done so again—whether the Government was going to give money to the Volkswag. Let us make this clear. For many years, while those gentlemen and the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition were still sitting on this side of the House, the ANK and the FAK were generally recognised as the co-ordinating cultural organisations in this country …

There was no schism in those days.

They have been recognised for many years, and they are still recognised today as the co-ordinating cultural bodies in this country. [Interjections.] The ANK has been planning these festivals for the past three years. The ANK has not been doing this on its own; it has gone out of its way to consult people from various cultural organisations. It has gone out of its way, for example, to consult prof Carl Boshoff about this festival—it is one which is of particular significance to the Afrikaner, but which does have a wider meaning as well, as I have indicated a short while ago—in an attempt to secure the co-operation of these groups and to say: Let us unite to celebrate this Afrikaner cultural festival; let us try to prevent the political division which exists in this country from penetrating the cultural organisations as well. It is precisely the cultural organisations that have the ability to overcome political differences and to unite people with different political convictions. [Interjections.]

I was kept informed of the developments, and at one stage I was very optimistic that these gentlemen would in fact co-operate with the FAK and all right-thinking Afrikaners in order to make a great success of this cultural festival in the interests of the cause they serve or purport to serve. However, what happened in the end? Politics intervened. [Interjections.] The party politics of the CP exerted its negative influence in the sphere of culture as well. While Professor Marius Swart, the chairman of this festival, and Mr Prinsloo, the festival director, were still persevering in their attempts to persuade these people to co-operate with them, the former member for Rissik, Mr Daan van der Merwe, said with great bravado in the newspapers:

They are a lot of schismatics.

Who caused the schism?

You drove us out. [Interjections.]

That is the language used by a member of the CP and a former member of this House.

What have you done to …

I want to know from the hon the Leader of the Officials Opposition whether he associates himself with that language used by Mr Daan van der Merwe.

Do you associate yourself with what the FAK said? [Interjections.]

Of course I associate myself with it. I shall reply to that question by the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. I associate myself with the standpoints of the FAK concerning those celebrations. I want to know from the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition whether he associates himself with the statements of Mr Daan van der Merwe.

Why did the FAK expel people! [Interjections.]

Order! I cannot allow such constant noise and such a stream of interjections across the floor of the Committee. The interjections must be toned down now; otherwise I shall be forced to put a stop to them. The hon the Minister may proceed.

The fact is that wherever the CP may find themselves, they set themselves up as the custodians of the interests and the unity and the tradition of the Afrikaner. [Interjections.] Now that they have an opportunity to prove this in practice, however, political philosophies have gained the upper hand.

If I have to answer the hon member’s questions, I shall do so by saying that we have of course appropriated the amount of R430 000 for this great project. The festival committee itself is making an additional contribution and collecting money for this purpose.

I said at the outset that the Government accepted the ANK and the FAK as coordinating bodies in this regard. That is why we decided to make money available to the FAK for this great Afrikaner festival. I want to ask hon members to use their influence at this late stage to persuade the Volkswag to abandon its attempt to celebrate this festival separately. [Interjections.] Let us rather forge bonds to unite us in the interests of the Afrikaner.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

Sir, I have promised to reply to a question by the hon member for Pietersburg; I am not going to answer any other questions.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister said that the festival next year to commemorate the Groot Trek was of significance to all the population groups in South Africa. I now want to ask whether the Government intends to involve other population groups in the celebrations as well.

The hon member must go and read my words carefully in Hansard. I said that although the Groot Trek was traditionally regarded as being of significance to the Afrikaner only, it did have a wider meaning, because it had opened up the interior of this country. I am sure that if the hon member would give my statement some thought, he would agree with me. That was all I said. [Interjections.]

I should now like to reply to the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke. He touched on the question of autistic children. Of course we view this problem with great compassion and sympathy, and when we are able to render any assistance, we do so. However, there is no waiting list at these two schools for autistic children, so they are in fact able to accommodate more children. We regard this whole matter with great compassion and sympathy.

I want to thank the hon member for Langlaagte for his contribution. In particular, he pointed out the levels at which the various cultures intersect and asked for greater sympathy and understanding. Naturally, we agree with him wholeheartedly. One of the hon member’s remarks made a particular impression on me personally, and that was that we should try to find common ground. There is a great deal of common ground, even though we disagree with one another, politically as well. However, we suffer from a tendency to exaggerate the differences, and I believe those words of the hon member’s are very true.

We greatly appreciate the important contribution made by the hon member for Stellenbosch. I am particularly pleased about the emphasis he placed on the fact that every local community has a responsibility—in fact, the primary responsibility—for preserving and maintaining buildings of cultural historical interest. Of course, this does not mean that the State can evade its responsibility; its contribution is essential. I want to thank the hon member for his contribution, therefore, and for having pointed out that there is ample proof of contributions by private organisations. We thank them on behalf of the Government.

I want to thank the hon member for Smith-field for his positive contribution, and especially for his words of appreciation. He comes from a rural area. He can speak from personal experience, because he knows the heartbeat of the platteland. I was glad to learn that the people there were making their own contribution to the promotion of cultural activities in the rural areas. If it is at all possible to obtain the necessary funds, the Government will be more than willing to help promote those activities in the rural areas. I want to emphasise once again the principle of partnership which runs like a golden thread through the activities of this department. I also want to tell the hon member that his speech was in close accord with the theme I have announced for 1988, namely “Education and Culture at the Service of the Community”.

The hon member for Umhlatuzana made an extremely interesting contribution. It was very clear that he was an authority on his subject and that he had a thorough knowledge of it. I agree that we must be alive to the dangers that threaten us at the various levels. I just want to point out that it is possible to confuse “protest art”—which is intended as a comment on matters that the artist does not agree with—and “resistance art”—the hon member also referred to this—which is actually practised with a view to subverting the State. The hon member’s timely and repeated warning of this grave danger was very important. It is the duty of the State, of parents, of children and of schools to try to ward off this danger.

I want to congratulate the hon member Mr Aucamp, too, on an able speech. If I remember correctly, he was the last speaker in this debate. I want to thank him for having concluded the debate on a high note.

I want to thank him, too, for having directed our attention once again to the need for providing adequate recreational facilities. I want to tell the hon member that we should like to make a contribution in so far as it is within our financial means. However, I also want to emphasise that my department can only make a financial contribution in this connection in very deserving cases, and then it must be done in terms of guidelines that have already been formulated. As he himself said, considerable progress has been made with the optimum utilisation of sport and recreational facilities at schools in the interests of the community. In my opinion, this activity must continue.

My time is almost up. There is just one last theme I should like to touch on; I hope we shall be able to discuss it in greater detail on some future occasion. It is a fundamental error to argue that culture should always be turned in upon itself. If we argue like this, our culture will suffocate. Culture is a wider concept. Culture is creative and should be expressed in such a way as to project a positive image of the person who practices it and of his lifestyle. This can only be done if we open ourselves up to cultural influences from outside, as long as these are in harmony with our own view of life. Then we must accept these influences, as we have in fact been doing since 1652. We have been subject in this country to very strong cultural influences from Britain, Germany and America. Even from our Black states, cultural influences have emanated which also form part of South African culture today. We all agree about that.

In the same way, we should throw our doors open and practise our culture, not in a narrow-minded way, but in such a way that it may also contribute to the cultural development of other population groups that inhabit this beloved country of ours. I could go on to tell hon members why it is important that we should make this culture accessible to others. As the hon member indicated to us, the fact that we establish cultural links with one another does not mean integration or surrender; it only means joining hands …

[Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

I could have expected that from hon members of the Official Opposition, but I did not expect it from the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. [Interjections.]

This is all I want to say, and I conclude by conveying my sincere thanks to all who have participated in the debate. I thank them for the in-depth discussion we have been able to conduct, and for the way in which we have been able to conduct it.

I am sorry that I did not have time to reply to the two hon members who spoke towards the end of the debate today. However, I want to assure the hon members that we shall make a note of their questions and answer them in writing.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 4—“Local Government, Housing and Works”:

Mr Chairman, for the past two and a half days we have been discussing one own affairs Vote in the Committee. [Interjections.] One gains the impression that the Government is devoting a great deal of time to these own affairs debates precisely to emphasise the importance of own affairs. Of course, we on this side of the Committee would have liked all affairs to be regarded as own affairs, as befits any people which has the right to self-determination. The fact is, however, that there is actually so small a measure of real self-determination in the own affairs departments, for those people we are representing here, that they are being afforded little in the way of self-determination. It appears that the Government would like to create the impression that this is nevertheless an important matter by placing an excessive amount of time at the Committee’s disposal for these debates.

For example, when we consider how much time has been allocated to provincial matters, matters falling under a Vote which in fact still regulates the affairs of local authorities—I shall come back to this at a later stage during the course of my speech—it appears to us to be just a little out of proportion.

When one looks at the annual report of this department, it is very clear that the process of putting the new constitutional dispensation into effect at the third tier of government is still under way and that many matters which are the responsibility of this hon Minister and his department are still under the auspices of the various Administrators and members of the Executive Committees. I want to quote from page 11 of the annual report:

The report goes on to state:

I want to ask the hon the Minister what specific problems are delaying the process and when he estimates the full transfer from the provinces to the Administration: House of Assembly will have been completed.

Another clearly stated policy standpoint contained in the annual report is that local government forms the basis of democracy and that it should therefore control all matters of a local nature.

If what is indicated here is true, I want to ask the hon the Minister why local authorities do not have the right to exercise control over such local matters as the throwing open of theatres and other recreational facilities that have been established exclusively by the local community within its own environment to suit its own individual community life.

I also want to ask: Why may local authorities not make and implement their own decisions in relation to free trading areas in their own central business districts, for example? Why should a second-tier government body force a local community to grant a licence to an escort agency in its midst, for example, contrary to the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants of the town—as recently happened in Pietersburg? Is it not the prerogative of a local authority to uphold and protect certain Christian and ethical values in its community?

I want to refer to an election speech made by the hon the Minister of Health Services at the time of the election. This was a speech he made in Parys, and in Die Burger of 27 March he was reported as having said the following:

When one considers the matters to which I have referred, it is absolutely untrue to say that the local community has a right to self-determination in regard to those matters that most closely affect it. Or is it possible that some of those functions I have just mentioned, which may possibly be transferred from the Administrators and the MECs to the hon the Minister’s department, will ultimately be catered for in the hon the Minister’s department? I should think this is necessary, because after all, these are entirely own affairs matters which do not belong under the jurisdiction of general affairs authorities such as the provincial authorities under the present circumstances.

The annual report also mentions that more functions are apparently to be transferred to the local authorities, which will lead to a concomitant increase in the responsibilities of the local authorities. This will tie in with general Government policy, that of the devolution of power to the lesser authorities, in other words the aim of bringing the Government closer to the people. I think the hon the Minister should indicate to us which functions he envisages transferring to the local authorities themselves in this regard, because the question that arises, for example, is what sources of income the local authorities will have.

It is now clear that the three most important services which have already been identified and which are to be transferred to the regional services councils, are bulk water supply, bulk power supply and sewerage. This has already manifested itself at the meetings that have been held. It is possible that some of the 22 other functions mentioned in the schedule to the legislation may also be transferred. This would mean that a larger proportion of the income of the own affairs city and town councils would have to be derived from property tax and the other remaining services at the local level. My question, therefore, is how the remaining functions of the own affairs councils are to be financed.

The nature of the functions to be transferred will also certainly determine the extent to which city councils will, of necessity, be politicised. If there is to be a greater degree of authority in regard to the protection of community life of individual communities, for example, this will involve political decisions, which in turn will necessitate political representation on our city councils. This is inevitable and unavoidable, and cannot be achieved in any other way than through the establishment of political representation at the local authority level.

Furthermore, the participation by each local authority in one or other multiracial regional services council in itself represents an inevitable shift of local authority matters to the hub of the political arena. It is therefore entirely inappropriate to accuse this side of the Committee of politicising city councils. It is the system which the Government has brought into being which has, of necessity, drawn local authority matters into the political arena. This is part of the new constitutional dispensation, which has brought about one of the most serious political crises this country has ever experienced. In this instance we are witnessing it at the level of local authority matters. It is one of the most serious dilemmas into which this country has ever been plunged, and that applies to the local authority level as well.

I therefore want to ask the hon the Minister whether the NP will fight the next city council election openly under its party-political banner or whether it will do so in a furtively under the banners of development or ratepayers’ associations. [Interjections.] In my opinion, the hon the Minister owes the country a clear answer in this respect. The hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning has already indicated on one occasion that that is the direction in which matters are heading, but I think this hon Minister, who is responsible for local authority matters, should now state unequivocally whether or not it is the NP’s intention …

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Sir, I requested the privilege of the second half-hour.

Order! No, the hon member for Pietersburg did not request the privilege of the second half-hour.

I request it now, Sir.

Order! Are there any objections?

No objections, Sir.

Order! The hon member may proceed.

I think we need to receive a straightforward answer from the hon the Minister in good time in order to clear up any uncertainty in this regard.

The first regional services councils have now come into existence. Some of them have already held their first meetings. I am thinking, for example, of the Witwatersrand and West-Rand Regional Services Councils in the Transvaal. The tremendous financial implications for local authorities have clearly emerged from the meetings already held.

In The Citizen, for example, it is reported that the Witwatersrand Regional Services Council has budgeted for an amount of R495 million. The report indicates the following:

Mention is then made of a whole number of schemes to which attention needs to be given. The report continues as follows:

In other words, over and above the own funds which are generated, the chairman of this regional services council expects more funds to be supplied by the provinces and the central Government. It is now foreseen that the estimated revenue from levies imposed by this particular regional services council will be approximately R70 million. According to the report, apparently the chairman concerned also foresees a cash-flow shortage in his regional services council.

I now want to ask the hon the Minister how he foresees that this expected shortfall of the RSCs will be made up. Will it be made up by increasing the two levies, or possibly by means of a profit derived from the rendering of bulk services by the RSC, or by means of increased subsidies on the part of the central Government and the provinces? If not, how else does the hon the Minister foresee these budgetary shortfalls being made up? Could it be through a combination of these possibilities? If these funds are to be generated at the local authority level, this bodes ill for the local authorities and their taxpayers. It would have a tremendous inflation-generating effect on the whole of society.

I also want to refer to a statement made by the hon leader of this party in 1985, when the Regional Services Councils Bill was debated in this House. At that time the hon leader of the CP said, inter alia, the following (Hansard: Assembly, 1985, col 7776):

The validity of this argument has now been emphasised, because in the case of the Witwatersrand Regional Services Council we can clearly see that Johannesburg is represented by five members, but that it in fact has 48,5% of the voting strength. Roodepoort is represented by two members, but has 13,04% of the voting strength. Randburg is represented by one member, but has 8,2% of the voting strength. Sandton is represented by one member, but has 4,68% of the voting strength. So there are nine White members on this RSC, but they have 74,48% of the voting strength. The Black town councils are represented by five members who have a total voting strength of 19,84%. There are three Coloured members and three Indian members who have a joint voting strength of 5,68%. This illustrates precisely what our leader on this side of the Committee was warning against—a minority veto on the grounds of a qualified vote based on financial contributions to the RSC.

As matters stand, this is a futile exercise that is doomed to failure in the long run. It cannot work. It is not defensible from the point of view of fairness. It has never worked anywhere. Ultimately, one cannot purchase one’s self-determination with money. Neither will it work at central Government level, where attempts are being made to devise a system in terms of which the self-determination of a minority will be entrenched.

The only alternative in this case at the local authority level is that of dividing up governmental power into own local authority areas in order to give effect to self-determination according to the character and traditions of individual parties at every level of government. That is the only fair and just solution in the multi-national situation in South Africa, and I hope the hon the Minister will also use his influence in the future so that these ideals of his own people may be realised.

Mr Chairman, I have pleasure in following the hon member for Pietersburg and I want to take this opportunity of congratulating the hon member—I assume he is the Official Opposition’s chief spokesman on this Vote. I am afraid, however, that is all on which I can congratulate him. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Pietersburg devoted his entire speech to aspects of local authorities inter alia the fact that local authorities had not yet manifested themselves in the Department of Local Government Housing and Works. He quoted from the annual report that functions had not yet been transferred to local authorities but the annual report covers 1 January 1986 to 31 December 1986 so what the hon member quoted there was out of date. The hon member is behind the times in the sense that the process of transfer of functions from provincial to local authorities has already progressed so far that it has currently found expression in proposals by a project team which are being considered by the department and the Ministry. Soon this facet of the Department of Local Government will also be transferred to enable it to play its full role under the new constitutional dispensation. My reply to that hon member’s argument is therefore that the transfer of functions will soon be finalised.

The hon member for Pietersburg put forward a very interesting argument but I do not know whether I understood the hon member correctly. The hon member asked why local authorities could not decide matters of own interest themselves. Did I understand the hon member correctly? Is it the hon member’s view that local authorities themselves should be able to decide matters of own interest? [Interjections.]

Is that the hon member’s standpoint? I am not receiving any answer but it is recorded in Hansard that he said this. According to his policy a White fatherland will be created and now he says that local authorities themselves should be able to decide matters of own interest. Suppose a local authority in the Free State, the Transvaal or wherever were to decide that integrated recreational facilities and integrated parks were acceptable, would the hon member support such a decision?

The Free State would not take such decisions. [Interjections.]

Hon members must realise that the standpoint adopted here by the hon member is quite inconsistent with the general policy advocated by that party.

I wish to refer to the department and its activities. I want to point out to the hon member that the aspects of regional services councils broached by him actually fall under a different Ministry. This department does not administer the Regional Services Councils Act. This hon Minister and this Vote have nothing to do with the Regional Services Councils Act. I think the hon member should take note of this and concentrate—as I expected him to do—on the general sphere of activities covered by this department.

I want to avail myself of this opportunity now to refer to the activities of this department. Parliament voted R294 million for the six programmes dealt with by this Department of Local Government, Housing and Works. If one looks at this amount of R294 million and at the annual report, one is impressed once again by the responsibilities entrusted to the hon the Minister and this department. Let me say immediately that to the uninitiated it may seem at first glance that this department is concerned only with the financing of welfare housing or the 33⅓% interest subsidy scheme on mortgage bond loans or the provision of physical facilities to users’ departments of own affairs. But this is not the case. The activities of this department cover a wide spectrum directly related to the quality of life of an own community. I am referring to slum clearance, rent control, urban renewal and also the administration of local government bodies when these functions are transferred.

I wish to take this opportunity to express the greatest appreciation on behalf of this side of the House to the hon the Minister and the department for their unflagging zeal in the provision of administration of an own community life as envisaged in the 1983 Constitution.

Before dealing with a few aspects in the sphere of housing, I wish to raise one specific matter. This is the statement made on political platforms, and also on the part of the Official Opposition in this House that very little is being done for Whites in the sphere of housing and that their needs are being neglected to oblige other population groups. We heard this on every platform during the past election.

Is this hearsay?

No, I have proof here.

On every election platform?

On every election platform from which the CP policy was stated. [Interjections.] I am not all that certain whether it was CP policy that was being stated on every election platform or that of the AWB. [Interjections.] This argument of playing White needs off against those of Blacks in whatever sphere is a very dangerous game in the context of South African politics. These arguments contribute nothing to solving the internal constitutional problems of South Africa, and I can say unequivocally to Opposition parties that it is our considered opinion on this side of the House that every house built in South Africa, whether it is intended for White or Black occupation, is an investment in the security and prosperity of all the population groups of South Africa. Members of the White community can only feel secure in their own houses if the opportunity for maximum home ownership is created for all the other population groups. It is also true that one is not serving the interests of any group by depriving fellow South Africans of rights and privileges.

There is a second reason, however, why a comparison …

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I am rising merely to give the hon member for Bellville an opportunity to continue his speech.

Mr Chairman, I do not know whether I must thank the hon Whip or the hon member for Pietersburg; nevertheless I thank him for the opportunity he is giving me. [Interjections.]

There is a second reason why a comparison cannot be drawn between housing for Whites and housing for the other population groups. The needs in regard to White housing and those in regard to other population groups are poles apart. The needs in the case of White housing are centred on welfare housing; the needs of housing for other population groups are centred on the availability of houses. The availability of a supply of accommodation, the availability and cost of land, the cost of services and especially the aspect of affordability of housing are at issue here. That is why a comparison between these population groups in South Africa is a futile exercise as far as housing is concerned. It makes no contribution to solving the complex problems of South Africa.

A third reason which makes a comparison impossible is the fact that it is simply not true. It is not true that White housing and funds earmarked for it are being curtailed in order to provide other population groups with housing. The mistake that is being made is that people usually look at the budgetary programme and notice under programme 2 of the Local Government, Housing and Works Vote that R151 million is being earmarked for White housing, and that this amount is made up of R55 million in interest, R86 million in interest and capital which reverts to the revolving fund and R10 million from the Treasury. Nevertheless this is not the entire picture as regards the provision of White housing on the part of the State. This R151 million should be seen within the total context of what is being made available for housing by the State. There is an additional R15 million for interest subsidy schemes and under welfare a further R106 million is earmarked for aid and welfare housing subsidies. An amount of R7 million has been earmarked for service centres and the operation of such centres, and then I have not even mentioned the R132 million earmarked for loans and mortgage bond assistance to public servants.

Here we have the full picture of Government action in the funding of White housing. If we add this up, we arrive at a total in excess of R300 million provided in this financial year for White housing in all spheres. As a result of the Government housing policy and with the initiative and aid of the private sector, White housing need not take second place to housing in any Western countries.

I wish to refer to the 33⅓% interest subsidy scheme. This scheme, aimed at assisting purchasers of their first homes to afford the instalments on their first house, is very popular. The subsidy is limited to R40 000 and applies only to new houses. The purpose of this scheme is to promote modest housing and to supplement the housing supply. It happens in practice that under this scheme first-time buyers purchase new houses far from employment opportunities and that new infrastructure has to be created at a price related to the current prevailing housing costs.

On the subject of White housing I ask myself whether it is really necessary at this stage to supplement the housing supply any further. If my argument is sound, I seriously wish to request the hon the Minister to consider applying this type of State aid to existing homes as well. If this is made applicable to existing homes and not only new ones, it will not cost the State any more money. It will make affordable existing housing around the central metropolitan core available again to young people, since they could buy those houses under this mortgage subsidy scheme. This would stimulate existing infrastructure such as schools and transport. A further most important aspect is that the extension of this mortgage subsidy scheme to existing houses would contribute to an effective programme of urban renewal.

There are so many positive aspects associated with this principle of extending the existing policy to existing housing that I wish to request the hon the Minister to give serious attention to this matter.

A further aspect connected with housing which deserves the attention of the Committee is the leasehold system or long-term purchase of the land on which improvements are established. This is mentioned in the annual report and I consider it to be such an important matter that we should debate it further in this Committee.

The prospective house-buyer is caught up in a rising spiral of costs when he wishes to acquire a house. Inflation, wages and land prices make it almost impossible for the potential purchaser to afford a house. If this rising spiral of costs is not broken, there is going to be only one consequence and that is renewed and sustained pressure on the Government for subsidies.

In an economy like ours, with some free-market elements, subsidies are the last of the worst solutions we should consider. The idea behind the leasehold system of making housing more accessible on a long-term basis is briefly to make a distinction between improvements and land. I know what I am about to say is impossible within the existing legal context because property rights in South Africa are vested in land, but the idea is to make improvements the alienable aspect for successive purchasers of houses, and to lease or sell the land on a long-term basis. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I request the privilege of the second half-hour.

The hon member for Bellville will forgive me if I do not react to all the points to which he referred. Some of the hon members on this side of the House will expand on a number of those aspects during the course of the debate. As the new PFP spokesman on this Vote I should like, at the outset, to record my gratitude to my immediate predecessor, Mr Alf Widman, the former hon member for Hillbrow, particularly for his exceptional contributions to this Vote in this House. It will take me a long time to match the knowledge and understanding which that hon member displayed in relation to local government, housing and works, if indeed I ever succeed in doing so.

The fact that there is still so much uncertainty and confusion regarding the precise division of those functions that are germane to the third tier of Government, will not exactly facilitate my task in this regard. I think we are all aware of that fact. During the course of the debate, my colleagues and I will attempt to devote some attention to as many facets of the department's activities as possible.

Firstly, I want to say that the categorisation of housing into own affairs is altogether unacceptable and incomprehensible to us on this side of the House. Seen purely from a planning point of view, such a categorisation is totally senseless. How one can formulate a meaningful policy which will satisfy the housing requirements of all our people on the basis of separate own affairs housing departments is beyond me. I do not believe one can resolve the housing problems at the national level without taking an overall view of the matter, for otherwise one cannot see beyond the various compartments that have been created by the Government.

Apart from the planning aspect, I believe such a division on the basis of race also has a particularly negative effect on race relations. I want to compare this to the situation we had in regard to own affairs education. The reason for this is that as a result of the apportioning of available land on a racial basis, and the disparities in both the quantity and the quality of housing afforded to the various racial groups, people compare these differences in order to see who is being given the most land and who has the most housing units available. It is as a direct consequence of own affairs housing that people are competing with each other for land and dwellings on a racial basis, whereas those people who form part of these three or four groups should be looking to the national interest and establishing the national requirements in respect of land and housing, regardless of colour.

As a result of this we are saddled with a situation today in which there is a surplus of White housing available throughout South Africa—I am generalising—whilst thousands of people of colour are homeless and have tremendously long waiting lists for housing. One need only look at the property sections of the newspapers every day to see how many houses are being advertised for sale or to let to those who are classified as White, and how little housing is for sale or to let to those people who have been classified as non-White by the Government. Furthermore, the shortage of land for housing in the Coloured group areas in Cape Town, for example, has led to an artificial situation in which the prices of land and houses have soared. A shortage of land means that there is a shortage of available housing and the unit costs go sky-high. Some people argue that certain parties have a financial interest in maintaining land prices in Coloured areas at an artificially high level, because there is a far greater profit involved there than in the White areas.

I hope hon members will understand how these facts I have just mentioned, about the existence of thousands of empty White dwellings and the fact that people who are not White may not move into those dwellings even if there is no alternative housing for them in their so-called own group areas, have given, and are still giving rise to deep-seated and decidedly justifiable grievances in the hearts of Black and Coloured South Africans.

As in the field of education, one can by means of legislation classify the housing of the various race groups into convenient, neatly defined compartments. However, one can never exercise any control over the feelings that are generated among the population at large by this gross discrimination in the provision of housing to the various population groups in South Africa.

If hon members bear these facts in mind, perhaps they will understand why the Government’s decision to evict those people who are not White but who, due to the housing crisis, have moved into dwellings in so-called White group areas, is unleashing such tremendous emotions of rage amongst those people. Those people have nowhere to live and therefore move into a White residential area where dwellings and land are available, but in accordance with Government policy they may not live there.

That is not a housing policy. As I understand the word “housing”, it means that people have a right to acquire a house and that a man should be able to continue to live in a house if he is able to acquire one. It ought to be the objective and the policy of any state or government to provide its people with housing, and not to take their housing away from them. The Government’s policy of own affairs, which results in people being housed on the basis of apartheid, is taking houses away from people for the simple reason that they do not belong to the right race group. It is a disgrace that this should still be happening in the year 1987.

I believe all these problems—these imbalances—are a direct consequence of the fact that the planning of housing has always taken place on the basis of apartheid and that this has now become entrenched in the own affairs housing departments. The large measure of uncertainty currently prevailing at local government level is to a large extent attributable to the confusion occasioned by the establishment of the regional services councils and the uncertainty as to which functions are to be performed by these councils.

†The hon the Minister of Local Government in this House, as well as his colleagues in the other two Houses, is directly and very deeply involved in various aspects relating to the RSCs. Among these are the establishment of the various RSCs; the allocation of functions to these bodies; the appointment of the chairmen; and the determining of the relative voting strengths of the component parts of the various RSCs. Those are the aspects in which the hon the Minister has a direct say.

In establishing the RSCs the Government announced that it was busy with the broadening of democracy and that this would result in the inclusion of people other than Whites in the decision-making process. The Government told us that the RSCs were being established for those reasons. Although one can obviously not find fault with this sentiment one must judge the intention of the statement in practice. I believe that that is where it has to be tested before one can express an opinion on whether these bodies do broaden democracy or not.

Looking at the way in which these RSCs have been implemented and the response from the affected communities, it should be clear to all of us by now that these RSCs have, instead of broadening democracy and defusing tensions, actually stimulated discontent, resentment and anger, specifically among those people who are supposed to be incorporated for the first time in a representative body.

Nonsense!

“Nonsense” is a relative term. It depends on how much one knows about the subject.

This is not only true for the voteless; the RSCs are also opposed by large sections of the White population and a large number of local authorities that represent White voters in South Africa. Right from the outset it was clear that a minimum amount of consultation had taken place on virtually all levels and that this was a concept that had to be bulldozed through as soon as possible.

In the Coloured, Black and Indian communities I believe the Government actively used the state of emergency to try to destroy grassroots opposition to the RSCs and to the establishment of yet another apartheid institution. The opposition in those communities has been virtually unanimous to the introduction of these bodies and the State decided to use security legislation to undermine the forces in those communities that were opposing the establishment of the RSCs. While detaining and harassing the leadership and movements in these communities the Government quickly moved to fill this leadership vacuum, for which it had itself been responsible, by the massive co-option of Blacks who were willing to go against the wishes of their communities and serve on local authorities and local government bodies such as the RSCs. Hon members must not try to explain that the local bodies that are active in Coloured and Black communities command any majority support in those communities. Anybody who believes that does not know what the situation in South Africa is at the moment.

They are somewhat like the PFP.

Mr Chairman, I had the “pleasure” of serving in the provincial council with the hon member for Parow for five years while he was the MEC in charge of local government.

And you always came second!

That fact that today I am still not an expert on local government is basically the fault of the hon member for Parow who never spoke about local government but always about politics.

That is precisely what you are doing.

I bow to the superior knowledge of the hon member for King William’s Town.

I think hon members will understand the problem that White local bodies have on the RSCs. The White local bodies are at least generally highly representative of their communities. Now they have to sit together with representatives from Coloured, Black and Indian communities who overwhelmingly have no mandate from the communities which they are supposed to represent on the RSCs. That is a major dilemma with which White local authority representatives are being faced.

What was the percentage poll in your municipal election?

It was far higher than in that hon member’s municipal election. [Interjections.] In White city council elections the percentage poll varies between 35% and 40%. In the elections of the Coloured management committees in the Western Cape the percentage poll varies between 5% and 15%. In some cases people do not even turn out to vote; only the candidate is there. The same situation exists in the Black urban areas. I have no objection to our establishing bodies which will afford people the right and the opportunity to realise their aspirations and enable them to so. It is senseless, however, to have a body serving on a regional services council if that body is not able to speak on behalf of those people it is supposed to be representing. It is a waste of time to talk to certain people serving on these councils because they have no influence on the community from which they come.

†To create a situation where such local authorities as the White authorities to which I have referred have to sit on bodies such as the RSCs where they will be involved in joint decision-making with these individuals and where they will be tarnished by the very presence of these individuals, is unfair. This so because it is compromising these local authorities, many of which, such as the City Council of Cape Town, have a very proud record of fighting for full and equal representation for all the citizens of Cape Town, and have therefore consistently opposed the establishment of any management committees or town councils that have been totally rejected by the citizens of Cape Town.

To have a situation in Cape Town where the representatives of the Cape Town City Council have to sit with people of the likes of a Mr Nxobongwana from Old Crossroads—a man who had under him supporters who forcibly burnt thousands of people out of their homes; a man who used violence and who allowed his supporters to use violence to drive 50 000 people from their homes—is most unfair. To have a person like that sitting on the Regional Services Council directly compromises the position of every White representative of the Cape Town City Council by their having to take joint decisions and to take responsibility for joint decision-making within the RSC with people who in actual fact do not command the support of their communities.

I must stress this because we cannot divorce the White local authority from the RSC. In the Black communities the resistance towards people who are willing to participate in town councils is high and is becoming intense.

What happened on the UCT campus yesterday—that ugly scene where a Black town councillor was chased off the campus …

Are you referring to Dennis Worrall?

No, I am referring to the Black town councillor … and when his vehicle and he himself were attacked. This is an illustration of the depth of feeling which exists in the community towards people who are willing to co-operate within systems created by the Government.

What is your excuse then for the Dennis Worrall incident?

I am not in any way approving of what the students did; on the contrary, such behaviour can never be condoned and never will be condoned.

Whitewash!

It is shortsighted of us not to try to understand where the reasons for that explosion and hatred lie.

What caused it?

If we do not understand why it happens, we will not be able to prevent it from happening again.

Why could Helen Suzman not address Wits?

That is the result of incitement by the Progs.

It is blatant racism.

The tensions in South Africa at the moment are the direct result of a policy of this Government.

Obviously.

That is where the root cause of unrest in South Africa lies today. [Interjections.] The actions of people who resort to violence, who resort to kicking people off the campus should never be condoned. The PFP has never done so. We must, however, never forget why in actual fact it happened.

Will they allow you to? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, perhaps they will not even allow me to. [Interjections.] I am not going to blame them, however; I am going to blame the NP because it is the NP who have deprived the people in this country of their freedom. Consequently the Government should not blame other people if they do the same. [Interjections.] The Government locks people up! The Government takes away their freedom. Is the Government then unable to understand that there are some people who say: “Very well, if you are going to take away the freedom of those people whom we regard as our real representatives …”

Order! The hon member has now digressed a long way from the Vote. I would appreciate it if he would come back to the Vote.

Mr Chairman, hon members caused me to digress a little from the subject. [Interjections.]

†Mr Chairman, in his capacity as Minister of Local Government the hon the Minister is also directly involved in the appointment of the chairmen of the various Regional Services Councils in South Africa. I want to address the issue of the election of the chairman of the Western Cape RSC—the election of Mr Pietie Loubser as chairman of that RSC. The RSC Act provides that the Administrator of a specific province … [Interjections.] … appointment, I am sorry. The Administrator of a specific province has to consult the three own affairs Ministers of Local Government before appointing the chairman.

That is what the Act provides.

I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he was in fact consulted on the appointment of Mr Loubser as chairman of the Western Cape RSC and, if so, whether he in actual fact supports the appointment of that gentleman. [Interjections.] No, I have no chance of being appointed.

I want to state quite clearly that the appointment of Mr Loubser was an act of insensitivity and shows a complete lack of respect for the sensitivities of the majority of people which this Western Cape RSC will represent. To support the appointment as chairman of the Western Cape RSC someone who all his life has been actively involved in high profile NP politics as MPC, as MEC in the Cape Province and then as a member of the President’s Council for the NP, a man who has consistently propagated and defended the racist policies of this Government, is an insensitive act.

*Let me make it very clear that I have nothing against Mr Loubser as a person. He is a pleasant, congenial sort of person with whom we have conducted many debates in the provincial council. However, someone may well be a very pleasant person, but still have another side to his character, his political viewpoint. I believe it was really insensitive to appoint such a person to that post.

Whom would you suggest?

There are many people I could suggest. I have a long list. There are many good people in my constituency, if there is no one suitable in the hon member’s constituency. [Interjections.]

†I believe that it is an unacceptable situation that a man who represents opinions which are diametrically opposed to those of the largest single component of this RSC is appointed to chair it. Whether the hon the Minister wants to accept it or not, I must point out to him that this appointment proves that the Government is turning these bodies into partypolitical institutions that will not serve the people but will rather serve the ideologies of this Government.

Mr Chairman, I take pleasure in congratulating the hon member for Claremont very sincerely on his appointment as the chief spokesman on this matter. [Interjections.]

When last did you go on a route march?

No, I only drink root beer!

Permit me to start by congratulating the hon member on his appointment; I hope he will fare very well. I found it most interesting—the hon member raised this too—that we had come a long way together as political opponents. I immediately wish to pay him the compliment that he has not yet lost any of his skills in this connection, but I also have to concede at once, with all due respect, that he has not learnt anything new in the time I have known him!

I want to begin by examining the hon member’s statement that Coloured management committees supposedly had such a low percentage poll. The hon member himself put the percentage at between 3% and 15%. May I point out to the hon member that his leader in the provincial council, Mr Herbert Hirsch, came in on a 13% poll in Sea Point. [Interjections.] The hon member knows this as well as I do. [Interjections.] Yes, the hon member can look it up; Mr Herbert Hirsch came in on a 13% poll. He lost there in the last election; it was the previous election in which he was elected on a 13% poll. [Interjections.] The hon member is free to look it up—it is so.

The hon member added that there was no liaison because a joint housing department did not exist in this country. That was the insinuation. He said that was why the problem could not be obviated properly.

I wish to refer the hon member to the annual report of the departmental. If he looks up this publication, he will see how regularly these various departments meet and the regular basis on which in-depth discussions take place even with the hon the Minister of Finance, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, etc. They are all involved in this. The hon member’s insinuation that there was no liaison in practice is simply not true.

The hon member continued by saying that regional services councils had been established without proper consultation and liaison.

[Inaudible.]

I want to tell the hon member that is truly not so.

Numerous discussions were conducted with local authorities by the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. The provincial council also participated while it still existed. I myself as the MEC for Local Government at the time, my colleagues in other provinces and officials of the hon the Minister’s department were also involved. Many discussions were held with Chambers of Commerce and their Afrikaans counterparts. There was continuous liaison on the establishment of regional services councils.

They say there was none; you say there was.

Please, let us adhere to facts. Let us attack one another but do not come up with such nonsense and say there were no discussions. Do not tell us that.

I cannot spend all my time reacting to the hon member’s speech; I should like to make a few comments on housing. One of the most beautiful quotations is connection with housing comes from the words of Abraham Lincoln about 130 years ago. He said:

But you do not allow them to do so.

Does that not form a splendid point of departure for a housing department? Does that hon member not agree with me?

Yes, but will you allow them to do so?

Of course we allow people to build houses; in fact, this department helps to make it possible for people who are unable to acquire housing to do so. The hon member knows that.

You do not make the land available.

But the hon member knows that is not so.

And you prescribe where they must build the houses.

For this reason and many other social reasons, home ownership should be brought within the reach of the greatest possible proportion of our population, and that is the task and ideal of the department.

Why do you pull down their houses?

The hon member asks why we pull down their houses. Please! Did he not see the voters of South Africa rejecting the PFP because they wanted order in this country? Any policy his party advocates leads to disorder, to chaos. [Interjections.] It is as simple as that. [Interjections.]

Facts force us to accept that there will always be a group of people who cannot be home owners because of socioeconomic conditions—that part of the population who will be tenants until the day they die. Problem areas in the provision of housing for sale—that is houses one can buy—are high costs of land, high interest rates and high building costs for instance. To my mind these problem areas will increase the demand for rental accommodation in future.

The provision of rental units is unfortunately subject to the same limitations costwise as in the case of a selling unit. The problems of high land costs, high interest rates and high building costs recur. The private developer supplying housing is entitled to his costs, plus a profit but, because it is beyond the reach of a large portion of our population, the private sector does not provide this and it is only right for the State to accept the responsibility of rendering assistance here as far as its finances permit.

A very fine thing has happened. In the past we calculated costs of rental units in accordance with the cost of the project. As a result of high costs our people were no longer able to afford that amount and we helped them out of the frying pan into the fire instead of assisting them. The department has now started to adopt a new policy, however, under which rentals will in future be calculated according to a person’s salary.

I want to thank the hon the Minister and his department very much today for this change of policy. It is no use our wanting to help people but then trying to recover our aid. We have to accept that there are certain people in our country from whom we shall not be able to recover the costs of the aid we render them. I want to thank the hon the Minister for the compassion his department displays, especially in these times of unemployment, of people in difficulties. We should show appreciation for this and, when I think of this department, especially under the leadership of this new hon Minister, I want to say that people’s problems are certainly viewed with compassion.

I have had experience of this because there is a unit consisting of 530 low-cost flats in my constituency. The department goes out of its way to assist people there. My heartfelt thanks again to the hon the Minister for what he is doing for us in this regard. I am also grateful for the new formula which has become operative. The charging of fair rentals helps a number of people to escape from the vicious circle of impoverishment in which they are caught up.

I wish to close with my annual request, which I hope the department will ultimately consider, and it is that the 33,5% subsidy should not only apply to new houses but also to existing ones to enable urban renewal to start afresh and allow us to instil new life into the older areas in our towns, fill them with children again so that our schools and all related matters may revive once more. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I wish to associate myself with the hon member for Parow in his appeal and in the recognition he accorded to the excellence of the services provided as well as the assistance furnished to our people in distress. I am pleased I do not have to differ with the hon member; I also associate myself with him in the respect that such benefits should also go to other White sectors of our population.

The Vote under discussion comprises three divisions, that is White local government in particular, White housing and White works. It is true that this White local government, as appears from the attention devoted to it in this report, obviously forms a dwindling aspect of the hon the Minister’s Vote—to such an extent that one could even foresee its possible disappearance.

I am making this statement in the light of the following: In the establishment process of White local authorities under the new dispensation there has been continuous and repeated emphasis that the guarantee of White self-determination lies in the fact that it could be realised at the local or third tier of management, that is in the contact with everyday community life. It has been presented to us continuously in this way, and this self-determination would then be received by a process of devolution of power to the third tier of authority.

Surely, the normal meaning of “devolution of power” is nothing but the transfer of power. If that is the case—this is what we understand it to mean—then it is really nothing new. After all, previous local governments also obtained their specific powers through a devolution of power. The question at issue is something different: Are we referring to more autonomy and is that autonomy of such a nature that one can talk of self-determination? Is that the autonomy which has to be borne in mind?

Self-determination means more than the mere carrying out of tasks or instructions received from higher authorities. In this sense autonomy would mean that there could and should be aspects of policy falling within the powers of such local authorities. It is true that in the situation prevailing at local authority level up to now these powers have not existed either. This is a fact. Nevertheless the question is whether such autonomy will be granted at local authority level with a view to giving effect to self-determination so that it will be a question of implementing a policy.

In this regard there has been no sign whatsoever in what has taken place so far that there can be any question of a broader allocation or extension of powers. On the contrary, the opposite is true. It appears to point rather to the existence of a limitation of powers as well as placing greater power in the hands of higher authorities. At this stage all the indications point to this.

Consequently, if the intention was to say that there would be self-determination for the White people in the process of the devolution of power, this policy fails utterly. This situation does not exist at all as a vehicle for self-determination; so to speak of self-determination and to try to find guarantees in it is to mislead the White voters of this country completely.

A fundamental characteristic of local authorities is the regulation of society and the provision of services—this is the essence of local authorities. Through the institution of regional services councils the essential function of local authorities has been completely eroded. If regional services councils—this is what is happening—are going to furnish the services that are being contemplated, it affects the core of the function of local authorities. When that is done, as has been contemplated, it obviously means that local authorities will no longer furnish important services already announced but only that the entire existence of local authorities are ultimately going to be jeopardised. This is so because they are being deprived of their fundamental characteristics. It is not only because of this but also in view of other salient aspects, as have already been mentioned by the hon member for Pietersburg. Powers in respect of central management and the opening of central business districts no longer even exist in the local government structure. Local authorities no longer have any say in these matters.

Another aspect that is being jeopardised is group areas. The Group Areas Act can no longer be applied or it is poorly applied as at present. As this happens, we predict that this concept of White local authorities will vanish.

Let us examine a few aspects of the rendering of services. When passenger, ambulance and fire brigade services, which are to be included under regional services councils, are being discussed, it is clear that that fundamental characteristic of the provision of services are now going to form part of regional services councils. Those regional services councils will exercise these functions; mixed councils will be the vehicle through which a total process of intermingling will take place in this country. We will find the final result to be that we will lapse into a mixed structure and regional services councils will be the means by which this intermingling will take place. There will be no other method than this one.

I want to say today this will be the first time the White voter will come into contact with the reality of this process of intermingling which was remote from him at first but which he is now going to experience in his daily life. On that basis we predict that the awareness of the White voter will lead to more CP members being elected to this House.

Mr Chairman, it was interesting to note that the hon member for Ermelo made the statement here that regional services councils were actually the beginning of the end of local authorities. The hon member for Claremont, on the other hand, devoted 10 minutes to proving that regional services councils were meaningless. One of the two has to be wrong. [Interjections.]

The hon member also referred to the Group Areas Act which was not being applied properly. We found during the election campaign that, wherever money was applied to providing housing for members of other races, the NP was accused of granting money only to those people. So whatever we do, we are never right.

I should like to confine myself to the subject of local authorities. I wish to take hon members back in time and draw their attention to the fact that, since the start of rural settlement in Stellenbosch in 1682 to the latest regional services council—to which reference has just been made—and since the establishment of the first Cape Municipal Committee in 1786 to the present large and comprehensive city councils of the great metropolitan areas on the Rand and elsewhere, the participation in the administration of local affairs by the local inhabitant—the man who lives there—has remained a fundamental principle of our political structure throughout. It is still the case today. The system of magistrate and “heemrade”, the change from representative to responsible local government in 1836 and the subsequent development of local government in the form of town councils, school boards, district councils, health committees and many other committees provided a means of expression for this principle. It is a principle of constitutional reform which already spans three centuries, has not yet been completed today and on which our children will continue to work.

If we want to reply to the burning question of whether there is any justification for local government and whether its right to existence is being eroded, it must be equally important to examine the contribution which these local authorities make and are able to make to the proper maintenance of a progressive, orderly and informed society. No one can deny that local authorities fulfil this function in an excellent way.

It is a fact that a citizen’s interests and his needs are not simple. They are complex and frequently crystallise into three components—on the national, regional and local level. Some of these matters are addressed only at the level of local government; others spill over onto further levels and it is sometimes necessary for liaison between different departments and institutions to address this. Fundamental factors playing a part in local authorities and of which we should not lose sight are attachment to the place where the problem is located as well as involvement in the service which has to be rendered there.

When we refer to this service, liaison with the Department of Local Government, Housing and Works is of paramount importance because it is this hon Minister and his department who have to see to the needs of local government. In our discussion of local government, may I remind hon members that 90% of the White population live in towns and cities. Consequently this hon Minister—together with local authorities—is responsible for the weal and woe from cradle to grave of 90% of these people. That is why we are grateful that the hon the Minister has exceptional knowledge of and reveals great sensitivity to the problems of local government.

The accusation was levelled here that there had been no consultation and that regional services councils had simply been forced through. They were said to have been “steamrollered” through. I wish to remind hon members that as early as 1964 the Borckenhagen Committee recommended certain services at regional level. The committee also recommended that additional sources of revenue be found for local authorities. I want to remind hon members that the Browne Committee confirmed the same findings and principles in 1980. I wish to remind hon members that the UME, the United Municipal Executive, appealed for the establishment of regional councils and additional sources of revenue when its members appeared before the Schlebusch Commission in January 1980. The President’s Council recommended this in 1982.

Regional services councils really became established after the submission of a report of a very important committee under the chairmanship of Administrator Gene Louw. The two components introduced were regional authorities and additional finance. For decades local authorities and institutions have pleaded for this and that is why it is a pity that it has elicited considerable criticism now that it has been done. I also find it regrettable that all hon members of this House have not had the opportunity of serving at regional council level because they have been deprived of valuable opportunities for acquiring a basic knowledge of such matters.

I think the question we have to ask ourselves today is whether the establishment of regional councils as general government institutions at local government level pose a threat to the primary local authority as a system of own government at local government level. Does this pose a threat? I think the answer is an unequivocal no.

It cannot pose a threat because it is a fact that local authorities are going to act as agents for regional services councils, but the councils are also going to act as agents for local authorities. In this way they are not only able to be of assistance in keeping the costs of local government as low as possible by the more effective use of scarce manpower resources but are also able to promote the development of local government—which is extremely important—and includes the establishment of local government bodies. This is extremely important and this is what we wish to accomplish.

Critics tend to lose sight of the fact that local authorities themselves nominate their representatives to regional services councils; no one else does this. The Act provides that any local authority may recall or replace its representatives on the regional services council; consequently it is very clear that a local matter cannot be enforced from above. The local authority itself decides on this and that is why it is so essential that we ensure our local authorities have capable people at their disposal. For that reason we should not always recoil when we are offered the opportunity of serving at local government level. Instead of alleging that regional services councils are giving to undermine local authorities, I maintain that they will enhance their importance. Local authorities are also acquiring a say, through their representatives on regional services councils, in matters far beyond their boundaries and areas of jurisdiction.

I wish to contend that a local authority will now have more funds at its disposal. There has been reference to water, power and sewerage but hon members should bear in mind that the provision of these on a small scale actually remains the responsibility of own local government. Funds spent over the years by local authorities on general affairs, on non-productive services, may now be put to use for own affairs. General affairs are now receiving these additional sources of revenue which also make upliftment work possible in less developed areas.

The hon member for Pietersburg referred to the amount in excess of R300 million already requested for housing by local authorities around Greater Soweto. This is proof positive that these regional services councils will succeed in achieving their goal. I should now like to appeal to our local authorities and institutions which have served our country and its people for more than three centuries to convert these challenges into opportunities. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, among the topics covered briefly by the hon member for Walvis Bay was that of the financial problems of local authorities. I would agree with him that they have had these problems over very many years. I have always sympathized with them although some of them are probably rather extravagant and deserve their problems. However, there is no doubt that whereas the revenue of the hon the Minister of Finance increases considerably because of inflation—he collects more from general sales tax and from personal income tax—without having to change tax rates the financial managers of local authorities constantly have to face the problem of increasing rates which is always a very unpopular step to have to take.

This afternoon I want to discuss a topic which also relates to the financial squeeze. It is the plight of the senior citizens of this country and the way this impinges upon the Vote of this hon Minister.

Sir, I have no doubt that senior citizens in this country are facing a very real quality-of-life crisis. I describe it as a crisis both because of the magnitude of the problem and the rapid rate of the increase in the scope of this problem. It has various dimensions. The first is the problem of accommodation. The second one relates to income and standard of living, and the third one to safety—both personal safety and the safety of property. All these dimensions are interrelated, but together, I believe, they have resulted in a considerable deterioration in the quality of life of our senior citizens.

Let us look at the day-to-day problems that the aged have to face. Many of these problems, I accept, are also faced by the rest of our community. Let us, however, look at this from their perspective. First of all, there is undoubtedly a scarcity of affordable accommodation. While for the White community as a whole there is a surplus of accommodation, in many places one can find old people living in the most appalling circumstances. Nevertheless their rents are going up and up, and very often beyond their reach. Those who actually end up being thrown out of their accommodation because they eventually cannot afford to pay the rent often have virtually no choice of anywhere to go.

The second day-to-day problem is the question of inadequate pensions, which compounds these other problems. I have been in this Parliament since 1981. That is six years now. Every single year the percentage increase in social old-age pensions has lagged behind the rate of inflation. That means that every single year, without exception, the financial position of senior citizens in relation to the cost of living has deteriorated.

The third day-to-day problem with which senior citizens have to contend is that of the soaring cost of living of which, I am sure, we are all aware. In particular, however, for older people the problem of the cost of food is an acute one. We have already come across circumstances in which, towards the end of the month, pensioners feed on small amounts of petfood. Then there is the medicine crisis too. The price of medicines has gone up enormously. When pensioners attempt to go to hospitals’ out-patient sections in order to obtain medicine cheaply or for nothing they have to contend with ever-increasing transport costs. In certain parts of the country the cost of heating, of keeping the places in which they live warm, has also gone up considerably.

The fourth day-to-day problem is the one of increasing crime. This has enjoyed a lot of public attention lately. It is not, however, only a figment of the imagination of the old people or of the newspapers. We have reached the stage where old people in many parts of this country are scared to venture three blocks down the road to get to their local shop or to the library or church or even to visit a friend. This factor has a very serious effect on old people. They begin to become prisoners within their own homes.

The final day-to-day problem I wish to mention is the serious vagrancy problem in many of our cities. In my constituency it is a problem that is getting worse and worse. The anti-social behaviour which invariably accompanies the vagrancy problem is something which needs to be tackled as well.

These problems, Mr Chairman, fall under various hon Ministers. I accept that this whole range of problems is not the sole personal responsibility of this hon Minister. Accommodation, however, takes a major slice out of most people’s income. Accommodation—affordable accommodation—is a key element in resolving this problem. I am talking of affordable accommodation in circumstances in which the occupant can feel safe. The situation is deteriorating. The availability of affordable accommodation, as prices and rents go up relative to pensions, is getting worse and, of course, as I have mentioned, the safety of the environment in which people are living is getting worse as well.

I should like to ask the hon the Minister to tell us in his reply to this debate what is being done in regard to the totality of this problem. I believe we must face facts; our less affluent senior citizens in this country face a very serious crisis. For many, life has become a misery, and for some, life has become a day-to-day struggle for survival. Our senior citizens, many of whom have served their country with distinction, deserve better than this.

Against this background I should like to call upon the Government, through this hon Minister, to appoint a high-level independent inquiry into the plight of the less affluent senior citizens in South Africa so that positive and urgent steps can be taken to improve the current unsatisfactory and deteriorating position. There is no need to exaggerate this matter, because things really are so serious that it is vital that we start finding solutions.

I should like to quote the famous words of a bishop of Stephney:

We need action to assist our senior citizens and I call upon this hon Minister to take the initiative.

Mr Chairman, I shall come back to the speech of the hon member for Cape Town Gardens as far as those aspects affecting my department are concerned at a later stage of the debate.

*I should like to say a few words before I deal with a specific topic. In the first place I should like at the outset, and early on in this stage of our discussion, not only to welcome the new departmental head, Mr Kallie Reynecke, who has been with the department since November of last year, but also to thank him for the exceptional services and the dedication he has given to this department of ours. He served as the Director of Local Government in the province of the Transvaal and was promoted to the head of this department. I should also like to thank the staff at head office, the heads and staff of the regional offices for their dedication and service to the department. I greatly appreciate this. In the third place I should like to thank the Nasionale Vroueklub most sincerely for the bouquet and kind wishes which I received from them and which I greatly appreciated.

Various aspects were touched on by hon members. I also want to congratulate the hon member for Pietersburg on the fact that he is the CP’s chief spokesman on these matters. This afternoon he made a fairly lengthy speech dealing inter alia with the matter of local authorities and regional services councils, the matter of sources of revenue and of course specific political aspects. My objective is to reply in more detail later on in the debate to the matters of local government and in particular the points raised by the hon member and also by other hon colleagues. I should also like to reply frankly to them.

I also want to say I feel that a negative standpoint regarding participation in decision-making which affects one’s life is inappropriate in the year in which we are living. Many members of the Official Opposition party do participate in the regional services councils and are even competing to serve on the regional services councils as a part of local government. I think it is important that when one participates in a system one must participate consistently, because one cannot enter a system if one does not want to participate with a view to the promotion of the activities of such a body.

Do they have a choice?

They do have a choice. I can tell the hon member for Sandton very quickly that one of the most important aspects in stabilising local authorities is the fact that regional services councils are being established.

The constituent parts of the regional services councils consist of members nominated by the local authorities and local government bodies to serve on the regional services councils. This is what is stipulated in the Act. The hon member for Ermelo would do well to verify this. It ensures the existence of local authorities, it ensures the fact that services can be rendered in own communities by local authorities elected by that community. It ensures this, because if it does not exist, a regional services council cannot be established. This has been stated factually and briefly, but I shall deal with the subject in more detail.

Ask Fanie Ferreira!

My hon colleague has just made that remark, and I want to say in a good spirit that I know that this is still a bit of a sore point with the Official Opposition, that a man who devoted his life to local government—he was a member of that party; he was a representative of the party in the provincial council—stated unequivocally that he was going to participate in this system because it also served the interests of the White community. He spelt this out unequivocally this year, and I know this is still a sore point with the hon members.

One swallow does not make a summer. [Interjections.]

I beg your pardon?

What did you pay him?

The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke is a fairly arrogant man, and I consider it in extremely poor taste when an hon member jeopardises the integrity of a man like Mr Fanie Ferreira in such a way by making such a poor interjection here. [Interjections.] It is a despicable interjection, and it does not befit the hon member as a Western Transvaler to do a thing like that. [Interjections.]

I want to thank the hon member for Bellville, who is the chairman of the NP’s study group, most sincerely for his contribution this afternoon. I am also going to refer to it in greater detail this afternoon in the matters I am going to deal with. The hon member made two points in particular regarding the importance of home-ownership and its promotion, and I think the Government’s record is there for all to see.

The representations he addressed regarding the 33⅓% interest subsidy and assistance scheme to first-time home-buyers was also supported by the hon member for Parow, and I shall deal with this now. I should like to thank the hon member for his kind words to me and the department. I also want to thank him for his support.

I think the hon member for Claremont would be well advised to talk to the hon member for Cape Town Gardens. If one compares the speeches of the hon member for Cape Town Gardens and the hon member for Claremont clinically, one will see that they do not speak the same language, as regards policy too. This afternoon the hon member for Cape Town Gardens made a serious appeal, but certain of the appeals made here by the hon member for Claremont will in fact promote what the hon member for Cape Town Gardens does not want. I shall indicate this later.

There is one perception I also want to deal with this afternoon, namely that there is an overall surplus of White housing in South Africa. The impression is—the hon member for Claremont and the hon member for Cape Town Gardens referred to this—that there is a surplus of White housing in South Africa.

In the Second Reading debate on the Own Affairs Budget I referred in fact to the survey which was undertaken to ascertain what the housing needs were among inter alia the Whites. According to this survey on 3 June of this year there were 24 911 White persons of all age groups who had housing needs of some or other kind. This figure has since grown to 27 378. This is the figure which was determined on 3 August—that was the day before yesterday—and there are a thousand survey forms that must still be processed. That is why I am saying that I am concerned that the idea exists that there is an overall surplus. It is being said that there is a surplus of approximately 37 000 houses which are standing empty, and some people estimate the surplus in White housing to be as much as 83 000 dwelling units. My department researched the origin of these figures and found that the method adopted to determine housing shortages and surpluses did not take sufficient account of the complexity of the matter, with the result that the results obtained are in my opinion unacceptable. Too many essential factors were not taken into consideration, probably because they cannot be readily ascertained.

People and their living conditions are not amenable to meaningful statistical analysis, unless note is taken of the innumerable variables and differences in the circumstances in which people live as individuals and in the group or community context, as well as the factors which have an influence on this. For that reason I want to warn against research which oversimplifies or underestimates the dynamism of the South African society.

To want to prove the surplus or shortage of housing merely by means of arithmetical comparisons of the estimated housing supply and the estimated number of families or persons requiring accommodation, cannot possibly serve the purpose. Such a macroapproach has too many deficiencies and can obviously give rise to divergent results, depending on what untested assumptions are made.

It is interesting that evidence pointed to a large surplus of housing prior to a recent commission of enquiry in Great Britain. Only a few variable factors were taken into consideration and the surplus of housing was determined at 819 000 dwelling units in England and Wales. It was found that these statistics, by way of evidence, were converted into a shortage of 1 141 000 dwelling units.

The following matters were mentioned in this report:

In my opinion the factors in the commission’s report also apply to a greater or lesser extent to the situation in South Africa. Here we must also take further factors into consideration as a result of different circumstances, for example the fact that South Africa is a developing country with both a First World and a Third World component. Other circumstances include the urbanisation process, the security situation and the state of the economy as reflected in perceptible trends affecting mobility, emigration, family development, unemployment, employment, the aging of the population and mortality, for example.

It is generally accepted in South Africa that existing statistical sources on housing are defective and that consequently an accurate determination of the need for housing cannot be undertaken without further in-depth investigation. As I have already indicated, we are dealing here with a dynamic and complex field which does not readily lend itself to quantification in simple terms. Research on needs must be undertaken at grass-roots level to ensure that the housing which is built or provided is utilised effectively.

The system to determine needs developed by the department is based on research undertaken at grass-roots level. This system which has only been in use for a short while, is already producing encouraging results, although it has not yet been fully developed. Further refinement is necessary, but the department has the greatest confidence that the system is going to reach a level of effectiveness in the near future which will meet realistic requirements and will establish a valid data base in respect of housing needs for the planning purposes.

The necessity for rendering assistance is determined in the first place by the ability of the private sector to provide affordable housing, including building sites. Only in the case of proven problems which cannot be readily solved can housing assistance be considered, subject to the availability of funds and the allocation of these funds in order of priority.

As regards the matters of the 33⅓% subsidy scheme or assistance scheme—the hon member for Bellville and the hon member for Parow referred to this I should like to say that the provisions regarding to whom and to what extent assistance must be granted for the acquiring of housing, requires thorough research. I was also gratified to take cognisance of the representations addressed by hon members this afternoon for the expansion of the subsidy scheme for first-time homeowners. However, I want to tell hon members that this has implications for the Treasury.

I have in the interim also referred the matter to the Development and Housing Board, a statutory board which was established in terms of own affairs legislation, and as soon as the various possibilities and expected effect have been considered, and the unique problems to which the hon members also referred have been taken into consideration, I shall consider the recommendations.

I shall also refer the matter to the meeting of the Committee of Ministers on Housing Matters—they also deal with this matter in connection with the 33⅓% housing scheme—and pursue the matter further there.

I have a great deal of understanding for the standpoints adopted by the hon members, and I think it is important for us to look at the specific setup existing in respect of this scheme at this stage.

As far as this scheme is concerned, I should like to say this afternoon that it is not only very popular, but that it is interesting to see what contribution it has already made towards turning people into first-time homeowners. In the past financial year this department has made a contribution of R11 667 651 by means of this subsidy to first-time homeowners. In this financial year virtually R4 million has been paid out in terms of this subsidy scheme in April, May and June.

What is interesting—it has come to our attention and we are aware of it—is that there are unfortunately this scheme is also being abused. Hon members will realise that large financial demands are being made and that everyone who qualifies for the scheme must receive the money. One does not want to be in a position where one has to suspend the scheme in a specific year because one does not have any more money. I therefore also made a few enquiries.

†I have been advised by a very big financial association that they have found certain deviations in practice. I do not say the deviations are big and extensive, but I shall give hon members three examples of deviations that have come to our notice. One is the manipulation of land values to accommodate increased building costs, for instance where the contractors increased the value of improvements and increased the value of the land.

The second example is the inclusion of extraneous costs, not as part of the contract but as interim interest, finance charges and legal fees which are increased more than proportionately and offset against the actual building costs which results in the creation of artificial values in excess of the true market value of the property.

Thirdly there are many cases where people who can afford a home build only up to R40 000—this is the limit within which the scheme functions—in stage one and, as soon as a subsidy is granted, they extend the dwelling.

*In this regard I want to say this afternoon that one is sorry about such abuses, but I should like to point out courteously that where such malpractices come to our attention, the subsidy will of course immediately be in jeopardy. Because these people make a statement under oath when they apply they can of course be prosecuted, but these are steps one is loath to consider. I therefore want to say that it is important to comply with the provisions of this scheme. I however understand that the entire structure of this scheme will have to be subjected to thorough scrutiny. I hope to make an announcement in this regard at a later date, after it has also been considered by the Housing Ministers at their meeting.

I also want to thank the hon member for Parow for his kinds words and remarks this afternoon on the question of the position in Parow Park and the rentals and everything connected with this. There are certain particulars of a more general nature in this regard, which I will still impart to the House.

I want to thank the hon member for Walvis Bay most sincerely for his speech this afternoon. As indicated, I shall also react to local government matters later.

I should like to supply these interesting figures regarding the promotion of homeownership touched on here inter alia by the hon member for Bellville and the hon member for Parow. I want to indicate that when the specific sales campaign was launched on 1 July 1983, as regards White housing, there were approximately 10 825 saleable residences which could be sold to Whites at that stage.

Since then, up to and including 30 July of this year 847 units have been sold in the Transvaal and a further 1 182 are available for sale. In the OFS 175 dwelling units have been sold, and 119 are still available for sale. In Natal 487 dwelling units have been sold, and 226 are still available for sale. In the Cape 2 126 dwelling units have been sold, and 5 663 units are still available. During these four years a total of 3 635 dwelling units have therefore been sold.

It is interesting that from 1920 to 1983 a total of 139 346 saleable units were built with money from the National Housing Fund. Of these 131 275 were sold. In other words, 94% of the units erected with money from the Housing Fund have in fact been sold. Homeownership was also established as a result.

What is important is that relatively recently it was also decided—announcements have been made in this regard—to make the provisions for the sales campaign and sales scheme even easier. Hon members are aware that in specific cases a rebate of up to 65% of the calculated sales price can be obtained for any structural deficiencies and/or the general condition of the relevant house. In the past the maximum rebate was restricted to 20%. If the lessee has been a regular payer during the previous three years he can also buy without paying a deposit. Even where payments have not been made regularly owing to circumstances beyond the control of the occupier, a local authority can also give approval for the house to be purchased without a deposit. I hope that it will be possible for people to purchase the houses they have rented for a long period, with these further conditions which have been added to the sales campaign scheme. As far as we in the department are concerned, we would like to give further assistance to enable these houses to be sold.

An aspect I should like to touch on this afternoon, concerns the matter of retirement villages for the aged. Last year in the discussion of this Vote I indicated that a committee had been instructed to investigate specific facets of retirement villages. The committee’s instruction was to investigate the need for housing, including facilities for retired persons, and to find ways to meet such needs, with reference to the role which can be played by the public and the private sectors respectively, including utility companies and other bodies, and to ascertain what role they can play, as well as to investigate the security of ownership with regard to housing for retired persons and specific other matters.

As regards the question of the security of ownership in respect of housing for retired persons the committee, under the leadership of Mr Boet van Straten, the Deputy Chairman of the Development and Housing Board, published a report dealing specifically with this matter.

According to this report it was found that the development of retirement projects by the private sector was in general a very sound development, which should be promoted. There are specific negative factors which must be addressed urgently without interfering unnecessarily in the free market. In addition to the safeguarding of the interests of the individual involved in the retirement projects, the committee which investigated this matter, identified the safeguarding and utilisation of investments, essential facilities and services and the drawing up of complete and proper contract documents as matters which should be addressed pertinently.

The committee proposed measures with regard to the concluding of all transactions in terms of which the right of occupation, with or without lesser rights, had to be acquired in a retirement project. The Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly approved the proposal for implementation. The proposed measures are the following:

In the first place the contract must be entirely in writing, including amendments and additions. In the second place the formalities required in sections 5 and 6 of the Alienation of Land Act, regarding the language in which the contract must be drawn up and the contents thereof must be complied with, so that the names and addresses of the contracting parties, the description and extent of the land, particulars of the owner, mortgages on the property, and other pertinent information are supplied.

In the third place the rights acquired must be defined fully and clearly in the contract. In the fourth place it must be provided in the contract whether the rights acquired are alienable, whether they are registered in the deeds office and whether they are perpetual or limited. In the fifth place everyone is entitled to acquire rights in a retirement project, but restrictions may be placed on the age of the users, as specified in the contract. In the sixth place no consideration may be received in respect of rights acquired in a retirement project, unless it is deposited in a trust account of an attorney or estate agent.

The date of completion of the project, which may not be later than 18 months after the date of the contract, must be specified in it, and the undertaking must be given that the buyer will be fully compensated if the seller fails to meet his obligations and a guarantee must be given by a registered financial institution before the developer may use the buyer’s funds.

The nature, extent and quality of facilities and services which are to be provided must be described fully, as well as any rights and obligations in connection with the use, costs and management thereof.

All rules in connection with the enjoyment of occupancy facilities and services must be embodied in the contract, and the buyer must be given the means to force the developer or seller to meet his obligations or to sue him for damages.

The objective is to embody these measures in legislation.

A second report, which deals mainly with the involvement of the private sector in the provision of retirement villages, has also been submitted to me. I am however of the opinion that a larger group from the private sector should be approached as suppliers in order to obtain a wider variety. I have referred the report back to the committee.

Matters which will be addressed in another report, are the retirement village in the town planning concept, the zoning of suitable sites and their position in relation to other essential facilities such as hospitals, clinics, shops and so on. Consideration will also be given in the report to the determining of needs for such villages and associated facilities. I shall reply at a later date to the other matters hon members touched on.

I should like to reassure the hon member for Claremont on one aspect at once. The hon member referred to the appointment of Mr Pietie Loubser as the chairman of the regional services council. In terms of the Regional Services Councils Act I want to emphasise the following: The Administrator is the controlling body and also takes the lead in the establishment of the regional services councils. The respective Ministers of Local Government, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and the hon the Minister of Finance must inter alia give their consent to the appointment of the chairman. I can say with the greatest confidence that I also agreed to the appointment of Mr Pietie Loubser, whom I hold in the highest esteem, as the chairman of the regional services council. I hope the hon member does not want to try to cast a reflection on Mr Loubser in this debate. I do not think that is fair.

I never put it like that.

This gentleman cannot defend himself in this House. If the hon member does not have problems with him personally, why did he put his question? I find it interesting that the hon member is trying to cast a reflection on the person appointed as the chairman, but what he is interpreting here is what he referred to as the opposition which has existed here over a long period to the establishment of regional services councils. Now he is attacking the person, and I just want to say that I do not think that is fair. [Interjections.]

I have the greatest confidence that both Mr Loubser and the council will carry out their task with great success under difficult circumstances and with this opposition. We have every confidence in the development which has taken place in regard to regional services councils.

Mr Chairman, I would like to touch on the subject of local authorities and the part they could be playing in assisting this department whose Vote is presently under discussion.

I would say it is generally known and accepted by all of us that we have a growing senior citizen population, mainly because of the advances in medicine and the lifesaving drugs which have prolonged life expectancy. Having said that, it also means that Government has a greater responsibility than ever before to see to it that our senior citizens are cared for and housed according to acceptable standards. This is no easy task for a young country like the RSA when one considers the vast sums of money which are involved in providing accommodation and facilities for our aged population.

A very important facet that most people tend to ignore, is the recommendation made by a majority of organisations that deal with the aged, namely the importance of the necessity to see to it that our senior citizens should be given the opportunity to live in their own homes and the environment they know for as long a period as possible. Our failure to heed these recommendations is going to place an even greater financial burden on the State for the provision of more old age homes and, with it, the subsidy required to keep these homes viable entities.

South Africa has one of the highest percentages of senior citizen populations living in subsidised old-age homes in the world. Seven per cent of our senior citizens are living in subsidised old-age homes, whereas in most other Western nations the accepted norm is between 3% and 3,5% and often very much lower.

I would like to say that I share the concern expressed by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens but I would like him especially to listen to what this department has done over the past six years.

Over the past six years 3 728 new units were provided for by this department, which housed 18 680 senior citizens at a total cost to the State of R238,47 million. The subsidies which were allied to these old-age homes amounted to R316,3 million and, added together, the total comes to R554 million. That is not a small amount in the overall budget, but I am afraid to say the demand is increasing year by year.

I firmly believe that with the assistance of local authorities this demand for senior citizen accommodation could be alleviated, and here I wish to come back to what I said earlier, namely that it is of vital importance that we should see to it that the aged person or couple should be able to stay in their own homes for as long as it is possible, all things being fair and equal.

In order to achieve this objective we require the assistance of our local authorities, ie to make this position become a reality. What is required is that urgent attention must be given to a uniform system whereby all local authorities should be given the opportunity to assist our senior citizens by way of rates relief to stay in their own homes for as long as they are able to care for themselves. I am convinced that if this was done, one would find a far greater proportion of our senior citizens opting to stay in their own homes in the environment they are used to and in which they feel comfortable.

Let us take, for example, the position of a couple applying for an old-age pension. Their house, irrespective of market value, is assessed at R9 800 for means test purposes. However, anyone receiving an old-age pension can hardly afford to pay the rates that are levied, to maintain the house and still maintain a reasonable living standard. Then, if they sell their house, the amount they receive constitutes part of the total asset and, in many cases, this then precludes them from receiving the old-age pension. They then find themselves in a position where they still have to go to other accommodation and reduce their standard of living to survive.

This is in fact happening at the moment. Because of the increasing rates, these people are being forced to dispose of their homes and to seek alternative accommodation, often at a standard below that which they are used to. They have no option, Sir. They can no longer afford to pay the rates and upkeep of their homes for which they have worked all their lives. If it is difficult enough for a working couple to meet the escalating yearly rates, how much more so for a couple on a fixed income?

To support what I am saying, I should like to give a few examples of the rate of escalation in some towns in my constituency. The rates in 1984 on a two-bedroomed home on a 1 265 square metre plot were R512,30. In 1987 the rates were R1 061. That is an increase of 107% in three years. I cite another case where the rates on a three-bedroomed home, situated on a plot of 1 000 square metres, have risen by 95% over the same period. To go one step further, Sir, the rate income of a certain town has risen by 310% over a period of six years. That represents an average of 51,67% per annum. What one must take note of in this case is that rates have only been levied on land and not on improvements, which makes the increase even more dramatic.

We make great play of encouraging people to buy their own homes. We even offer incentives for first-time buyers of homes to make the owning of a home more attractive. Then one battles one’s whole life to pay off one’s home over 25 or 30 years, so that one will have a fully paid for roof over one’s head when one retires. However, when one reaches that stage in one’s lifetime—this applies to most working couples—one finds that because of the cost of upkeep and the rates imposed by local authorities one’s position becomes untenable. I would go so far as to say that some local authorities do not seem to consider our senior citizens living in their areas and, in fact, because of their rating policies, are driving them out of their homes. I ask the question then whether is it any wonder, under these circumstances, that the Government finds it impossible to keep pace with the demand for old-age homes and the facilities that go with them.

In Natal we have a provision in the Provincial Local Authorities Ordinance, section 151, which was amended in 1982, to provide, inter alia, for the granting of rate rebates based on ownership and occupation. This amendment was initiated because of the receipt of numerous representations by pensioners in regard to their inability to meet ever-increasing rate accounts. However, with respect, I believe that the local authorities are using this provision in an incorrect manner. The position has been reached where, in some cases, rates are levied at a high level. Everybody who has a residential property and has a permanent occupation is then given the maximum rebate allowable. Pensioners and the aged are thereby not receiving any relief over and above that enjoyed by the other permanent residents. In my opinion this was not the intention of the legislature when they framed this provision for insertion into the provincial ordinance. However, I accept the fact that the local authorities are using this section of the Provincial Local Authorities Ordinance as a method to milk the commercial and industrial sectors as well as the owners of holiday homes insofar as rates are concerned.

Just as an aside, I should again like to give an example to confirm what I am saying about milking certain sectors. The rate increase on a commercial property rose over four years from R1 500 to R9 700. That is an increase of 545%.

I'll bet my bottom dollar there will be another increase this year as well!

However, to come back to the position as regards the rates and their effect on our senior citizens, I therefore appeal to the hon the Minister to give this matter his urgent attention. After all, local authorities are a tier of government, and as such they should play their part and shoulder some responsibility in respect of our senior citizens to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude. Without their effort and input of yesteryear we, with respect, would not be where we are today.

In our youth-focused society, concern for our aged should not become one of our discarded virtues. I think it behoves all of us to see to it that the concentration on the youth should not be at the expense of our senior citizens. We must also realise that it is only with thanks to the past that we can build on the future.

I believe that the State has taken the lead in this regard, and that it is genuinely concerned about our senior citizens. It has shown its concern by providing necessary finance for additional facilities. However, I am seriously worried that our local authorities do not share the same concern, and it is for this reason that I have raised this subject today in the earnest hope that the hon the Minister may well be able to assist our many deserving senior citizens in the difficulties they are experiencing in respect of local authority accounts for their rates.

Mr Chairman, it is a great pleasure for me to follow up on what the hon member for South Coast said.

It is indeed a great privilege for me to be able to take part in this debate this afternoon. The reason for my saying this, is that housing is a field which is dear to my heart. I also want to pay tribute today to the Government and to this Department of Housing, both of which have performed a mammoth task in this field in the past, and are still doing so.

I should like to confine my speech this afternoon to two aspects which, although they are not related, I regard as being of the utmost importance as far as housing and local authorities are concerned.

The first aspect relates to the existing Development and Housing Act, Act No 103 of 1985. I want to deal in particular with the present provision contained in section 47 (1) (c). This section provides that no one shall without the permission of the Minister, and I quote:

I fully understand why this section was placed on the Statute Book by the legislature. There were, and possibly still are, very good reasons for this. It was, and still is, vital that the existing housing stock be augmented and that every available dwelling be used for residential purposes.

Today, however, I want to submit, with all due respect, that for various reasons section 47 (1) (c) of the Development and Housing Act should no longer be subject to Ministerial approval.

Firstly, it is a fact that in the present-day situation many dwellings are situated in areas zoned for business purposes, and that this provision in the Act is applicable despite such zoning.

Secondly, I want to submit that we have housewives and retired persons who, by and large, have to sit at home, talents and training lying dormant, people who could play a positive and an active role in the economy if they were permitted to ply their trades from home, subject to local authority approval. This argument is, in fact, in line with the report of the President’s Council Committee for Economic Affairs on a Strategy for Small Business Development and for Deregulation, and I quote from Chapter 6 on page 65, where the committee states the following:

I want to ask the hon the Minister today, with all due deference, to give further consideration to the practical implementation of this aspect of the Act. By the deletion of this section and the devolution of power to the local authority level, the available housing stock would be unaffected, but it would make a tremendous difference to the South African economy and to potential entrants to the labour market. Furthermore, this is in line with the Government’s declared policy on the devolution of power.

The second aspect I want to deal with relates to the basic housing needs of our children and our children’s children, who will be living in this country in future years. With the assistance of the private sector, the State has already performed a mammoth task in relation to the provision of White housing and continues to do so. Apart from the State and the private sector, the individual citizen also has a tremendous contribution to make, and it is specifically with regard to this aspect that I should like to exchange a few ideas today.

In my humble opinion, there is a need for us to inculcate in every citizen of this country a desire for housing, or rather the ideal of becoming a homeowner. Once such a mental attitude has been engendered, everyone will be prepared to make more and more financial sacrifices in order to achieve his ideal.

It is in this spirit that I want to state today that we, as the parents of children whose own children will one day be confronted with a housing problem, can assist them at this stage to develop that mental attitude. It is against this background that I want to make the recommendation that every parent should begin to make financial provision for his child’s future housing requirements from the time of the child’s birth.

I want to recommend that the State take the initiative for the creation of a national housing insurance policy. All parents ought to be allowed to pay off a certain amount per month, over a period of approximately 20 years, on such a housing policy which is linked to profits and protected against inflation by means of an endowment policy, and the premiums should directly be tax deductible. Such a policy would then be redeemable expiry of the period, but only for the purchase of a dwelling. To prevent the money from being used for any other purpose, a punitive clause could always be incorporated.

I accept that a number of technical problems and objections could arise in relation to this proposal. However, I feel it is an idea worthy of investigation because in this way we would once again have total involvement and complete co-operation in the solution of the housing question.

Preliminary discussions have already been held with some of the insurance companies. They have displayed a great deal of enthusiasm for this idea, and I cannot imagine any greater joy than that of a parent handing over a fully paid-up housing policy to his child upon his coming of age, a policy which will enable him to purchase that first important home at a time in his life when he needs the capital most.

If we as parents regard it as a priority to take out educational policies and funeral policies for our children, we can also purchase a housing policy for them, because this is in fact the most important period in their lives. All of this relates to their real stability, their real happiness and their prosperity in this beautiful country, South Africa.

Mr Chairman, when one looks at the political and constitutional scene, at how this Government is deforming and not reforming this country of ours, one realises that the CP, when we come into power—not if we come into power—will be placed in a position in which it can become the greatest reforming party in South Africa’s political history. [Interjections.]

Let me refer in this regard. Sir, to the activities of the Department of Local Government, Housing and Works. This department brings into play the own affairs concept contained in the disastrous new Constitution.

As a matter of fact, the Directorate of Local Government Affairs, as stated in the report, has—

The report states further:

I emphasise the words: “its community”.

In the first instance the very pertinent question arises: What is meant by “its community”? Is this the community at large, the general community, or the community as far as the White population group is concerned? When one looks at the fact that this department administers the regional services councils which are multiracial bodies, it immediately becomes clear that this is not a community as far as the White population group is concerned, but the community at large—a multiracial community.

*If, in addition, one considers the fact that there is an explanation on page 12 to the effect that the Regional Services Councils Act of 1985 falls under the jurisdiction of this department and one should therefore keep in mind, as I have indicated, that the council concerned here is a mixed council, the question immediately arises: What is the position with reference to local authorities after the establishment of regional services councils? The hon member for Ermelo is quite correct in saying that of necessity when the regional services councils are established, the functions and activities of local authorities will become the lesser functions. The question arises whether they will have to do more than water gardens and take care of libraries. If we look at the Regional Services Councils Act, we see that most functions and powers will now be vested in the regional services councils, and no longer in municipalities.

I should like to pay attention to a standpoint assumed by the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning at one stage. I am referring to a report in Die Vaderland of 28 August 1985. The hon the Minister said:

On a prior occasion I explicitly said—I want to repeat this—that the principle of the redistribution of wealth is a Marxist principle which is peculiar to communism. I raised the same standpoint during the debate on the Appropriation Bill, and the hon the Minister of Finance replied that taxation is also a form of distribution of wealth. What is at issue here is not the distribution, but the redistribution of wealth. I say it is a Marxist principle and I should like to support my standpoint by referring to J J Degenaar’s book Marxism, Leninism and its implications for South Africa. With reference to Marxism, the writer says:

That is in South Africa.

Similar standpoints are adopted in the publication Reflections on Marxism, and also—this is the most authoritative source the library could give me—in a publication of which I have a photocopy here: Marxism, Communism and Western Society—A Comparative Encyclopedia.

Do you have permission?

Since this is not a banned publication, I did not need permission.

It is the standpoint of this side of the House, on the basis of these three sources—and many more sources could be quoted—that redistribution of wealth is one of the cornerstones of Marxism and Leninism. Hon members on the opposite side of the House must not blame us, therefore, if we rely on these sources and others when we say the establishment of regional services councils embodies a Marxist principle. [Interjections.] I will not be the one saying this, because it is easy to get me out of this House by means of interjections. This is what the sources say, however, and those hon members will have to consult the sources before they can contradict the standpoint. [Interjections.]

In addition I want to refer to the anomaly in the fact that local authority matters are own affairs in terms of the Constitution. Let us look at a publication issued by the NP Government itself. Its name is “Regional Services Councils” and it was published by the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning. With all due respect, I want to tell the hon the Minister that this publication is in conflict with the Constitution. When one looks at the little green blocks, general affairs, one finds regional services councils listed there. When one looks at the Constitution, however, one sees that local functions, including regional services councils, are own affairs according to the report tabled by the hon the Minister’s own department. We want to know, therefore, whether regional services councils are general or own affairs.

General affairs.

If they are general affairs, this is in conflict with what the Constitution says.

In the last place I want to refer briefly to the fact that regional services councils do not, as is assumed, simply bring communities closer together, but in fact alienate communities from one another. I am sorry to say this during the discussion of this hon Minister’s Vote, but we have a typical example of this in what is happening in respect of Potchefstroom and Klerksdorp at the moment. Potchefstroom had every reason to lay claim to being appointed as the main centre of the regional services council of that region.

That is not true.

It is a main centre not only from the historic point of view that it was the old capital of the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek, but also from an educational point of view in that it has a university and a training college. It is also a centre of that area from a military point of view and from the point of view of sport. Consequently there is great unhappiness in Potchefstroom, which was the first capital of a South African Republic, because it has not become the main town of the region. [Interjections.] Instead Klerksdorp has. Of course, this can easily be explained, because that side of the House—we have become used to this—is only too inclined to turn its back on good traditions and good logic.

Mr Chairman, I listened attentively to the three CP speakers who took part in this debate earlier this afternoon. I also listened to the remark made by the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke, and I want to dwell on that for just a moment.

All levels of government in this country are important, but one of the most important levels is that of local government. After years of experience on that level, I know the people on local government level to be people who have an exceptional degree of integrity. It is important to us to nurture and support those people and that level of government. We dare not disparage them or belittle them with negative comments. Something terrible has happened here, however. In an interjection the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke implied that the Government had bribed a lightly respected member to adopt a different standpoint.

It is a disgrace to claim something like that!

Mr Chairman …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: It is not true that the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke claimed that the member involved was bribed. He said he had been bought. [Interjections.]

What is the difference?

Order! The hon member for Klip River may proceed.

Mr Chairman, the fact is simply that the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke asked in an interjection: “How much did you pay him to do that?” [Interjections.] That is nothing other than an undisguised insinuation and a direct inference that money was given to Mr Ferreira to make him change his standpoint. [Interjections.] This was said, Sir, with reference to one of the most respected people on the level of local government!

It is a disgrace! [Interjections.]

I think the Official Opposition in this House owes it to us, and particularly to Mr Ferreira, to furnish an explanation of what was meant, because we are in a position of privilege here. We know that a statement made under the protection of that privilege grants a person immunity.

Correct!

Mr Chairman, I sincerely hope that this matter will be rectified unambiguously by the CP before the end of the debate, because it is not in the interests of the Government or of local government for a remark of that kind to be made here.

Nor is it good manners! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the three CP speakers who spoke said more or less the same thing about the subject of self-determination—self-determination, which has supposedly been forfeited. We must remember, however, that when we take the realities into account, it is clear that in the first place we are living in a multiracial society. That is a fact, and no one can change it. We should all have preferred to have lived in a homogeneous society, but we are not that fortunate. That is not a reality. Because we have municipalities of separate groups—separate ethnic groups—in a single region, we must live with one another, especially since some of those municipalities adjoin one another. We must recognise and accommodate the mutual dependence of people who share in the common resources. We cannot indulge in the wishful thinking of the Official Opposition that those people can be relocated. It is an impossible situation, and the hon member for Overvaal admitted, after all, that taking these people away is not even CP policy. [Interjections.]

The other possibility is that the CP advocates complete partition. If they do advocate complete partition, the norm they are trying to enforce as a criterion for these councils is so impossible that it is not even worth concerning oneself with the criticism from those quarters.

You liberalists will never understand that!

It is important, because of the fact that we are living in a multiracial society, and always will, that there be multiple municipalities, that we co-operate in talking, thinking, planning and taking decisions. That is unavoidable. Without doing that, one cannot regulate one’s community. Without doing that, there can be no coordination and no saving on expenses, and there will inevitably be a duplication of services in a certain region. It is impossible to attain what we want to attain without regional planning.

It is also true, however, that the hon members of the opposition parties in this House, and particularly those in the right-wing ranks, shy away from power-sharing because they cannot tolerate taking decisions with people of colour in the present-day South African structures or politics or society. They are not mature enough or competent enough to do so. I shall tell hon members what the problem is. It is not that the right-wingers no longer know the Blacks, but they are in a situation in which they are more comfortable in a master-servant relationship. They can deal with a master-servant relationship, because they are familiar with it. It is easier for them to communicate with the illiterate Blacks, but they are afraid of the literate Blacks.

That is why Eugene is their leader.

They find it easier to communicate with Blacks who are barbarians than with educated Blacks.

Order! The hon member for Klip River has strayed very far from the point.

Mr Chairman, I am trying to indicate why the regional services councils are not acceptable to the right-wingers, because there they have to communicate with Blacks of a different class from that in which they would like to see them. That is the point I want to make.

Order! The hon member must come back to the subject.

I also want to reply briefly to the claim made by the hon member for Losberg that the functions of municipalities will be taken over by regional services councils to an excessive degree, in other words that the municipalities will be swallowed up. That is simply not true, because the Act provides that those functions that may be performed by the regional services councils are only potential functions. This means that the municipalities will continue to do what they want to, but will be entitled to transfer functions to the regional services councils, subject to certain conditions. Arrangements will have to be made and one will not be able to transfer any function without the permission of the administrator. That is why I say once again—I repeat—that the regional services councils’ functions are only potential functions.

I want to say that the Marxist statement, made by the hon member for Losberg, is nonsense because income tax, for example, involves taking away from haves to benefit the have-nots. This is an example of redistribution of income. Surely one taxes those with higher incomes more highly. They pay more tax for the benefit of the community, and the community are those who have less.

Go and read Karl Marx! Have you read him yet?

Is it an argument to say that merely because there is a redistribution of income, it is Marxist? If that is true, our whole tax system is Marxist. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to refer to a statement made by the hon member for Klip River in his speech. He said we should all have preferred to have lived in a homogeneous society.

Racist! [Interjections.]

Order!

I differ very sharply with the hon member. I do not see the heterogeneous character, the diversity of South Africa, as an obstacle; it is anything but that. In reality I think it is an asset. The potential of South Africa’s heterogeneous character is something that can be developed only when one has got rid of that Government. Being homogeneous is not necessarily an asset and the sooner we accept that we are not a homogeneous country, but a heterogeneous one, with a great diversity of people, and the sooner we begin to utilise that potential, the sooner we shall put South Africa on a new course.

I want to refer briefly to the hon the Minister who referred to my criticism of the appointment of Mr Pietie Loubser as chairman of the Western Cape Regional Services Council. I thought I had made it clear that it was not meant personally. It was aimed at the appointment of a person who in my opinion—I am talking on behalf of many other people as well—has a political profile that is party politically one-sided, and therefore it would not be in the interests of the development of the regional services council to confirm that appointment. My criticism, therefore, was aimed at this being a political appointment, and in my opinion, if the regional services council is supposed to fulfil a co-ordinating or unitary function, the position cannot be filled by a person who has such a high party-political profile.

It was pointed out to me, however, that this was not the only example of an appointment of this kind, and that a similar situation exists in Port Elizabeth, for example.

†Mr Chairman, I believe that in Port Elizabeth the individual who was appointed by the hon the Minister and the Administrator as chairman of the Algoa Regional Services Council was a Mr James Kleynhans…

Jobs for pals!

…who was formerly the MP for Algoa in this House as well as MPC for the NP. Sir, here again we have a person who has been a fervent NP supporter—and I am told also a very conservative NP supporter—for most of his life. However, I believe that if the RSCs are to play a unifying role in South Africa among the race groups who are represented on the RSCs, accepting all the qualifications that I have mentioned, the appointment as chairman of a rightwing—so I am told—NP politician, who supports policies which are rejected by the overwhelming majority of South Africans, to represent sectarian interests, is insensitive and will not make a contribution towards the creation of greater unity among the people represented on that body. Those are the reasons why I oppose the appointments. I am not referring to the personal integrity of the individual persons, and it does not even matter whether I like them or not; it is the political appointment to which I object.

*As far as the housing surplus is concerned, I think the hon the Minister is correct. Perhaps we should see in what categories there really is a housing surplus, instead of taking a look at the whole housing situation in South Africa.

The hon member for Parow referred to my speech and said liaison did take place among the three Ministers entrusted with housing in the three Houses. I find this statement very interesting, and want to ask whether this is the case. If it is true that the three Ministers entrusted with housing in the three Houses liaise with one another, I want to ask, in view of this liaison, whether or not it is true that the other two Ministers and that hon Minister have reached consensus on the present allocation of group areas. In other words, have those three Ministers reached consensus that there is sufficient land that is suitable for the housing requirements of all three race groups? Surely that is what is being implied.

If liaison does take place and this liaison means something, surely it must mean that either they have reached consensus or they differ with one another. Perhaps the hon the Minister can inform us as to whether or not the other two Ministers agree with him that Coloureds and Indians who cannot get housing in their own group areas should be ousted from the White areas, in which housing is available, by that hon Minister and his Government. If liaison and consultation do take place, we must also know what the result is. Surely it cannot be a one-sided liaison in which the hon the Minister actually decides what should be done.

During the past few years a great deal of reference has been made to decentralisation of the Government, and this development on the level of local authority, on second-tier level, was sold to us and the electorate as an attempt to decentralise decision-making.

I state emphatically that if one looks at the whole structure of the constitutional dispensation we have today, in reality the whole dispensation represents the opposite. It is a centralisation of decision-making on the level of central Government. Those bodies that function on the second and third tiers are then expected simply to carry out those decisions. That is what we have to contend with in reality. Are the regional services councils, for example, going to have any powers to take decisions in respect of policy that is in conflict with Government policy? Naturally the answer will be no.

I make those points, because I believe we should be honest about what the Government is doing in practice. The reaction of South Africa’s inhabitants is based on how they experience reality, and not on the promises that are made here.

Mr Chairman, it seems that the hon member for Claremont is a prolific speaker on the subject of local government. I have not yet established whether he is the expert he claims not to be.

I have no intention of making an extraordinary speech today as the hon member for Durban North said I did yesterday—that is if quoting views and letters giving political expressions from the publication of a society of which he is the president can be said to be extraordinary.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I think the hon member is in fact discussing a subject which belongs under the Vote Education and Culture which was the previous Vote. He is reacting to something that happened there and I submit he is out of order in this debate.

Order! I am listening to the hon member. He may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I shall continue on the Vote under discussion.

In considering Vote 4: Local Government, Housing and Works before us, I should like to draw the attention to two specific items. The first is local government works and the estimated expenditure of R293 935 million for the year 1987-88—an increase of R22,398 million or 8,24% on the total for 1986-87.

A matter of concern is that on referring to the report of the Auditor-General for the year 1985-86, I note that of the total Vote of R100 million for that year more than R11 million or 11,23% was not utilised and the surplus had to be surrendered. I think that with the vast backlog in our housing the money voted for expenditure should be utilised to avoid the serious social problems that the lack of adequate housing entails. I trust this aspect will be given special attention in the year 1987-88.

I should like to refer to a particular area of local government and that is the Development and Services Board of Natal which covers the development in regulated areas under the board’s control.

As at 31 March 1987 the board was the proclaimed local authority for 58 development areas. In addition it controlled 38 regulated areas which fall under the provisions of the Agricultural Land Act. A development area is one which is a recognised urban area where normal township development is controlled, and the board is responsible for the provision and maintenance of a wide range of local authority services. The prime objective is to uplift these areas to a level of self-sufficiency where either self-government at local authority level or incorporation into adjacent independent local authority areas is viable and feasible. The board receives annual provincial grants to assist it.

To finance capital expenditure the board has certain external loans and its present borrowing power exceeds R15 million.

Many of the development areas for which the board is responsible were placed under its jurisdiction because of a lack of basic health services and infrastructural development. The board provides services over a wide range—management, property valuation, real estate management, civil defence, water reticulation and everything else connected with the engineering services of local authorities, environment planning, and health services. In short, I think all the services provided by one of the larger local authorities are being supplied by a highly qualified and motivated team to the rural urban communities established under regular and irregular development.

The progress towards the attainment of financial self-sufficiency I think has been slow over the past years, but the board is committed to a policy of closing the gap between expenditure and income by annual increases in rates, fees and tariffs, having due regard to the financial capability of the particular area.

I have tried to present a picture of a highly organised and specialised caretaker body, the functions of which I do not think will be easily transferred to any other tier of government without seriously prejudicing the efficiency of the service given.

The Abolition of Development Bodies Act, No 75 of 1986, makes provision for the abolition of development services boards at some future date. I respectfully would like to make the point to the hon the Minister that there is no justification for any change. In fact the majority of the communities; the embryo local authorities do not have any wish or desire to assume responsibility or control, nor do they wish to be administered by any other authority. The majority also do not have the expertise or the finances to carry out any of the functions of a local authority or rural council.

The population under the areas of the board’s control is approximately 110 000. Because of the large holiday population in the coastal areas this figure increases by some 30 000 in the holiday period. While the board is the de facto and de jure local authority in its areas of control its basic task is to supervise and foster orderly development and to let the fledgling grow up and leave the nest when it is ready. However, it is not the function of the board to build itself into an empire to retain control indefinitely. There appears to be I think a misconception on the attitude of the board to the introduction of RSCs. The fact is that the board itself as a specialised unit is designed towards preparing development areas and bringing them to a stage where I think they can effectively and economically be absorbed into either local authority or regional council areas.

In a developing society such as exists in the Republic, particularly in Natal with its large rural Indian and Zulu population, and with the drift of the population towards the towns, there will always be pockets of informal settlements with irregular urbanisation comprising communities which require some sort of local authority control but which cannot exercise such control themselves. Indeed the rural RSCs will not be equipped to deal with these embryo areas which are sometimes so small and isolated that for speedy action one needs a specialised and sophisticated team such as provided by the Development and Services Board.

There will always be a state of flux with new areas having to be brought under control as developed areas achieve autonomy and incorporation. We have recently proclaimed development areas such as at Etete and Welbedacht on the Natal North Coast. They are examples of this. Settlements have sprung up literally overnight where several thousand people are accommodated and, within a month or two, they have been provided with essential services such as water and health services to keep them orderly.

As the campaign against the establishment of RSCs gathers momentum in Natal—I am afraid there is going to be a campaign—those who claim to support a broadening of democracy—I think through their misguided lobby—are seeking to deny participation to a population who require the opportunity to improve their quality of life.

Instead they prefer to continue to exercise their patronising colonial control of days gone by.

These organisations and local authorities that are resisting participation in RSCs must be reminded that the Government is moving strongly towards devolution of power and financial responsibility. They must therefore not expect to be backed by the Treasury when their politically motivated boycott goes wrong.

Returning finally to the Development Services Board, my plea is that in the interests of the many thousands of residents in the board’s area and the future of a loyal and dedicated staff, no hasty decision be taken regarding the board’s future. This might result in a complete breakdown of services administered to the community and will certainly prejudice the metamorphosis of development areas to local authority status.

Mr Chairman, first of all I want to take this opportunity to offer my sincere congratulations to the hon the Minister on appointing Mr Callie Reynecke as departmental head. In my opinion the hon the Minister could not have made a better appointment, because there is no one better equipped for the task for which the hon the Minister has appointed him. On behalf of the CP on this side of the House, I offer him our sincere congratulations.

I am going to concentrate on the regional services councils, and the question I want to ask is whether they can succeed in the rural areas. Regional services councils have now been established in the RSA after very lengthy negotiations with the local government sector. Section 14 of the Republic of South Africa Constitution Act provides that local authorities are an own affair and that that own autonomous local authorities are therefore to be established for each population group, wherever this is at all viable. This principle has been accepted by the White authorities, but has been rejected by the Black, Coloured and Asian local authorities, although they have in fact agreed to participate in the regional services councils.

The first regional services council has already begun to function in Bloemfontein, while a further seven regional services councils began to function on 1 July 1987—this is already history.

No regional services councils have as yet been established in the rural areas of the RSA. It is expected that approximately nine to ten regional services councils will be established in the rural areas of the Transvaal. In the Cape the old divisional councils will be converted into regional services councils, while an investigation is still in progress in the Free State and Natal.

Regional services councils are being established with certain primary objectives: The broadening of the base of democracy at the local authority level; joint decision-making at local authority level by all population groups when it comes to general affairs—that is to say, joint rendering of service; the provision of services on a regional basis in order to benefit all population groups in the most economic manner possible; and the upliftment of the deprived areas by means of the transfer of revenue from the more affluent sectors.

The question that has to be asked at this stage is whether it will be possible to realise the original objectives of the regional services councils. Are the regional services councils, as they are structured at present, the most effective form of local government? Are the methods of financing the regional services councils, particularly the two proposed levies, the most appropriate and most acceptable means of doing so? Can there really be any question of the cost-effective joint rendering of services to communities that are spread out over a wide area?

It must be acknowledged that the establishment of regional services councils, and the participation by the Black, Coloured and Asian communities in such councils will in fact broaden the base of democracy at the local authority level. These communities will now, for the first time, have a say in the rendering of these services. However, this will make the situation more intricate, and it ought to be made a definite prerequisite that only those communities that accept full autonomy at local authority level be allowed to participate in the regional services councils.

It may be, however, that the largest single advantage inherent in the system of regional services councils is to be found in the upliftment of the deprived communities. This would apply in particular to the Black communities and, to a lesser extent, to the Coloured and Asian communities as well.

Funds collected by way of the levies could be applied to improve deficient services or to provide them where they are totally absent. The question is, however, whether the costs of collecting the levies, and the administration costs of the regional services councils, will not be so high that the advantage of the new levies will largely be forfeited.

I should like to refer to the structuring of the regional services councils. In the rural areas, and particularly those in the Transvaal, the regional services councils will consist of between 20 and 70 nominated members. Although the Act provides for the protection of minorities by way of provisions involving two-third-majority decisions and appeals, it is going to be a strange negotiating platform for the Black, Coloured and Asian members, and its success will probably first have to be proven in practice.

The financing of the regional services councils appears to be one of the major causes for concern in the private sector, judging from Press reports, conferences and private discussions. There is practically no institution in the private sector which, although it accepts the principle of regional services councils, is not extremely critical of the two proposed levies.

What is the criticism? A levy on salaries and wages, at a time when large-scale unemployment is rampant in the Republic, can only lead to further unemployment as the scope of the levies increases. If they are maintained at 0,25%, employers will probably begin to investigate the costs of mechanisation and automation as compared to labour costs in order to reduce their levy contributions.

The levy on turnover is unfair. Some businesses work according to a profit margin of only 2% to 3% of turnover, but they will have to pay the levy on the entire turnover. The costs of collecting the levy will be very high for both the employer and businessman, as well as for the regional services councils. Ultimately it will be the man in the street who will have to pay the levies, and that will undoubtedly push up the inflation rate.

The impact which the levies will have on the farming community is still unclear, but they will undoubtedly further cripple a struggling sector of our country’s economy. Those communities which do not have Black, Coloured or Asian communities will pay the levies but will derive very little benefit from them.

I also want to refer to the joint rendering of service. The largest single problem confronting the regional services councils, particularly in the rural areas of South Africa, is that of being able to provide services on a regional basis to all the communities in the most cost-effective manner. In the case of the rural areas there can be virtually no question of the joint rendering of services, with the exception of abattoirs, markets, roads and so forth, throughout the entire region.

Take, for example, the region in which Middelburg is situated. There are 12 White, eight Black, two Asian and two Coloured local authorities in the proposed region. Three of the White local bodies are local area committees. In reality, therefore, there are nine towns, two of which have Coloured townships. The same two towns have Asian townships and eight of them have Black townships. These towns are situated in five magisterial districts. Each of the nine towns has its own water scheme, sewerage scheme, electricity scheme and its own dumping site. The only things they have in common are that they draw their water from the same river system and all purchase their power from Escom.

What will therefore happen in future is that the regional services councils will appoint the White local authorities to act as their agents in order to provide the Black, Coloured and Asian townships, wherever such townships exist within their areas, with the necessary services from within the existing infrastructure, just as they have done in the past. The regional services councils will then undoubtedly be in a position to offer their expertise to the region in order to improve the quality of the services provided by certain local bodies, which at present leave a great deal to be desired. It will be possible to do so on a cost-effective basis. However, there is some serious doubt as to whether it will be possible to render those services in a more cost-effective manner than the local authorities are doing at present.

Having said all that, I want to conclude by repeating that the regional services councils cannot and will not succeed in the rural areas. I also want to predict that the regional services councils are a prelude to a scaling-down and ultimate phasing-out of local authorities as we know them today. In due course, city council members will probably also be nominated.

Mr Chairman, it was quite interesting listening to the hon member for Middelburg. He accepts the principle of regional services councils, and he also pointed out certain problems he foresaw regarding the functioning of regional services councils. On the other hand his colleague the hon member for Overvaal totally condemns regional services councils, but in the next breath the hon member for Overvaal objects because Potchefstroom is not going to become the principle town of the regional services council of that specific area. We must simply accept contradictions of that kind in this House from the Official Opposition and live with them.

I should like to confine myself to the cost of welfare housing in the present circumstances. Inflation is also taking its toll as regards the care of the aged and the possible services which the State can render in the care of the aged. Inflation is going to catch up with every aged person in this country, and the aged person is going to be faced with the same problem irrespective of what political party governs the country. For that reason it is perhaps necessary for one to start looking now at alternative ways of affording aged persons an opportunity in good time to settle themselves in areas where they will eventually get medical care and food prepared for them more readily by organisations which render assistance from place to place.

Nowadays it is simply no longer possible in the large cities for aged persons to live in remote areas where people who can look after them must travel long distances to get to them in order to offer them medical care in their homes and to provide them with food.

Depopulation is taking place in many rural towns. If the State is to take the initiative in providing housing in those areas which are not so densely populated and where the services can be provided far more easily and at a lower cost, we must examine such areas. In order to indicate the importance of this, I should like to point out that in 1981, when housing projects were made possible, it cost approximately R8 900 per person to accommodate one aged person. Today it costs the State precisely twice that amount.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr Chairman, before business was suspended, I was pointing out that the funds provided by the department for housing had doubled since 1981. If this continues on the same basis during the next five or six years it will simply become impossible to make provision for housing for frail aged persons.

I also asked that we consider alternatives, ways in which people can be accommodated more cheaply, while the same services can still be rendered to them. We are all getting older, and we are not all going to be financially self-sufficient in our old age. That is why this Government never left the aged in the lurch in the past. It is nevertheless necessary that we continue to plan to make cheaper housing available to those frail aged persons in future.

I want to mention an example of such a possibility to hon members. In my constituency, at Vierfontein, there is an Escom power station which is going to close down soon.

There are a large number of houses, more than 140, and an entire infrastructure. There are sport facilities and all other possible facilities which may be needed. If the department were to take over such an area, for example, it could be made available to aged persons to allow them to settle there. I just want to mention that the houses there are of a high quality. The construction of the houses is of such a nature that it will be possible to maintain them very satisfactorily for many years without large-scale repairs and maintenance.

If such a place were made available to a competent organisation for the care of the aged, a considerable number of aged persons could be cared for there at a far lower cost than the care of the aged costs at present. I want to draw the attention of hon members to the fact that I referred specifically to frail aged persons. The necessary medical services could be provided for the care of the aged. Meals could also be supplied. [Interjections.]

Order!

Sir, it is quite clear that the CP is not at all interested in the care of our aged …

That is not true! You are lying! [Interjections.]

… because judging by the way in which they are carrying on here, they have absolutely no interest in possibilities for caring for more aged persons.

Order! The hon member for Lichtenburg must withdraw the word “lying”.

Sir, I withdraw it. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Parys may proceed.

That is why the NP and this Government is serious about continuing to seek ways which will not place a heavy financial burden on the State. I am therefore appealing to the hon the Minister specifically to investigate the conditions at Vierfontein, where several hundred aged persons could be accommodated.

There is also a worked-out coal mine, where only two Whites are being accommodated at the moment. Several houses are standing empty. The mine belongs to a private organisation, but even that area could be made available by way of negotiation for the care of the aged.

I am also asking that when funds are allocated for the care of frail aged persons very close attention should be given to the provision of a service centre—this is essential. Unfortunately in the past financial assistance was given to places where there were no service centres, and where consequently the necessary care, as regards medical services, could not be given to the aged persons. One always learns from the events of the past to do the best one can in future, and that is why it is necessary for the department to take a very thorough look at the way in which this money is being made available too.

Another aspect I should like to single out is the standard of accommodation which is prescribed. Is this standard not too expensive? Could a similar standard, which does not cost as much, not be laid down? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I enter the debate to raise a local matter affecting my constituency, one which is of great concern to a large section of my constituency. It is that we now find ourselves in the same position in which many Black people in South Africa find themselves—we live in an area which has taxation, but no representation. A large part of my constituency has had the peculiar constitutional designation of a “local area” which is something of an anachronism that is confined to the Cape Province and falls under what used to be the divisional council system. In the past, Constantia, as a developing area, had the status of a local area. We had access to the services of the divisional council and representation on the old Cape Divisional Council in the form of one councillor. That was a satisfactory situation while it lasted, and it was generally assumed that Constantia was in a transitional phase between a rural area and eventual municipal status of some kind.

What has happened, however, is that from 1 July this year the Government abolished the Cape Divisional Council and left the local areas of the Cape Divisional Council, including Constantia—which, incidentally, includes Hout Bay and various Coloured areas such as Grassy Park and so on—as orphan areas. They have no representation. They are in a limbo and have no access to the new regional services council, except informal access that individuals may take upon themselves to try to institute.

What we have done in the Constantia local area—and I raise this because I hope we can get support from the hon the Minister in this matter—is to call together, of our own accord, the two ratepayers’ associations of the area, Constantia and Tokai and, as an interim measure, form a joint executive, on a proportional basis, which we call the Constantia Valley Ratepayers’ Executive.

This body has two objectives. One is to examine the options available to us—there are four options, and I shall be touching on them briefly. The other is to seek some form of interim representation for the people there. The regional services council is raising over R5 million in the area, and we cannot say how they are going to spend this money, neither have we any access to what decisions may be taken on our behalf.

Thus we have this body that has been formed, and we have made an appeal to the Administrator and the MEC in charge of local government for recognition of this temporary body, which I believe complies with Act 109 of 1985, the Regional Services Councils Act, as regards various criteria which it establishes for the recognition of a representative body. We ask the hon the Minister to support the recognition on an interim basis of this body so that some form of linkage can be established for the people in that area.

Our councillor who served on the divisional council has agreed to continue to serve as a link until such time as the constitutional future of the area can be finalised. This has been conveyed to the Administrator as well.

There are actually four options open to us. On the one hand, we can remain a local area; but that is no option at all, because it leaves us in a limbo with no representation on a permanent basis, and that is unacceptable.

Our second option, if the Constitutional Laws Amendment Bill that is in the pipeline is passed, is the possible establishment of what is called a rural council. That too, however, is not an option, because a rural council will not have the power to take decisions regarding the area. It will merely be a mechanism for having representatives for a given area from a given race group, and those representatives will have the opportunity to send somebody to sit On the regional services council. They will not have the power to raise money, however, and they will not have the power to take decisions. In other words, if a rural council were to be formed in respect of Constantia/Tokai in terms of that Act, we could have a bunch of representatives, but they would have no teeth, no power to do anything at all. They would have no power to raise money; and if they wanted to build a local community hall, it would be subject to the Administrator’s or Minister’s approval. If they said we could not have the hall, that would be the end of the matter.

While this matter is not, strictly speaking, appropriate to this hon Minister’s Vote—it could become so, though if this Bill is passed—I raise it as a serious problem for the proposed so-called rural councils in the future which will offer representation with no authority. That in itself will give rise to tension in areas that can do without tension. [Interjections.]

The other two options would be incorporation in another local authority, such as the Cape Town City Council, or to go independent.

That is right. Hear, hear! [Interjections.]

I hope my hon colleague is talking about independent with a small “i” and not a capital “I”! [Interjections.]

You make good wine. [Interjections.]

These are two serious options for the Constantia local area. One is for us to become independent, have our own council, raise our own rates, control our own destiny, and defend our own townplanning scheme—it is very important in the lives of the people of Constantia that the rural atmosphere there is preserved.

Another option is, in fact, to be incorporated into the Cape Town Municipality. We want to do the job properly. We want to assess the pros and cons, the financial implications, and all the various arguments that can be applied to this situation. There are a number of criteria—economies of scale, and so on—that one would have to examine. We would want to do this responsibly, however.

At the moment we have a combination of ratepayers’ associations that do not have funding, and I would appeal to the hon the Minister to consider the possibility of appointing an official in his department to assist the Constantia Valley ratepayers’ executive in examining the options in a responsible way.

As I have said, the local area option of the status quo, and the rural council option are not options. Incorporation and independence are real, serious options, and we want to take the right decision. I appeal to the hon the Minister, therefore, first of all to lend his support to the interim recognition of the Constantia Valley ratepayers’ executive in order to preserve a link of representation for the short term; and, secondly, for some assistance in examining the options in a professional way so that a responsible decision can be taken well in advance of the local authorities’ general election in October next year. In this way whatever mechanism is decided upon as the correct one can be implemented in good time, and the decision will be a sound one.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Constantia has become known in this House as one of the more aggressive opposition members. [Interjections.] I must say that I was very worried about him when he started his speech in such a sedate and responsible manner. He has also not been on any foreign visit lately, which leaves one very little to quarrel with him about.

However, he did refer to the RSCs and displayed the very interesting situation that one finds in the Official Opposition that although they are totally opposed to RSCs, now that they are there they want representation.

We are also opposed to the tricameral system.

Yes, but that party is here as well. [Interjections.]

I hope that after tomorrow we might know where the hon member stands or where he has fallen.

Independent!

He may be independent. No doubt the hon the Minister will deal with the matters raised by the hon member.

*I want to associate myself more specifically with what the hon member for Parys said when he discussed the position of the infirm aged. I want to confine myself more specifically to welfare housing and the financing thereof, particularly in respect of the two most needy groups in this area, namely young people and the aged. [Interjections.]

Grant me the opportunity to say that in its short period of existence the department has really made progress with rendering assistance to people in this field. The initiatives taken by the department are becoming more prominent in the matter of assistance rendered to people, and the work of this department is really characterised by dedication to community service. We convey our thanks to the hon the Minister and his department for this.

In regard to welfare housing it is the department’s premise that it is the responsibility of the individual in the first place to meet his own and his family’s housing needs. It is accepted, however, that there are those who will suffer destitution unless assistance is rendered to them by the authorities. It is in this sphere that the department becomes involved in housing.

In respect of the aged the approach of the department, quite correctly too, is that an aged person should remain in his community for as long as possible. Only when it is no longer possible must provision be made for such a person to be accommodated in a specialised place of care. In both these areas I believe that the role of the department will become increasingly important in future.

A country-wide survey in fact indicated that the greatest need for housing exists in the age group below 30 and over 60, while the income varies between R150 and R350 per month. A total need for 22 900 dwellings for Whites in all age groups was identified, with the preponderance situated within these two groups. As far as the aged are concerned, it is certainly correct to say that suitable accommodation is one of the most pressing problems confronting them. According to estimates there is a country-wide shortage of approximately 16 000 accommodation units for the aged.

This accommodation problem, as far as young people are concerned, is almost purely financial, while there are other attendant factors in regard to the aged. The most important of these is infirmity and an associated inability to be self-sufficient.

The ideal situation, in the sphere of welfare housing too, remains of course homeownership for everyone. One need not elaborate on the stability, the sense of one’s own worth and peace of mind this ensures. However, it must be accepted that the State alone cannot meet the need in this sphere, but that the private sector will also have to contribute its share.

Seen in this light, the development of the department’s sales campaign in regard to welfare housing is of cardinal importance. The request I want to make is that urgent consideration be given, when a person has been renting a house for a long period and the construction costs together with fair interest have already been paid, to making such a house available to such a person at a nominal amount.

Consideration could also very beneficially be given to the introduction of a hire purchase scheme—meaning purchase by way of instalments—instead of normal leasing. This could be done particularly in respect of younger persons. If it is correctly structured it would then be possible for such a person, as his income rises, to pay back the purchase price more rapidly.

Additional tax concessions to employers to encourage them to help their employees to acquire housing could also have beneficial results.

†Turning to the care of our senior citizens, it is important to note that in Western societies, including the South African White society, the fastest growing cohort in the population is the geriatric. The projected population figures for people over 60 in South Africa show a substantial increase from 365 000 in 1980 to 434 000 in 1990 to 500 000 in the year 2000 and approximately 1 million by the year 2030.

Order! Hon members are conversing too loudly. I cannot allow it. The hon member may proceed.

In the light of these statistics it is important to remember that the incidence of physical illness obviously also increases with age. So an analysis of 2 000 admissions to Frere Hospital in East London showed that 67% of White medical admissions were geriatrics. From available statistics it can be accepted that approximately 5% of this population will require part-or full-time care. As the population increases the actual number of people involved will obviously increase accordingly. We shall have to be ready to cope with this. Additional day-care centres, day-care hospitals and homes for the frail aged with which I wish to deal more fully will become more and more important in order to provide sufficient and co-ordinated welfare assistance to our senior citizens.

*The basic point of departure must continue to be that it is desirable that the senior citizens should remain integrated in their own communities for as long as possible. Where they already have their own accommodation, the building of an adequate number of properly equipped service centres on a regional basis within the community contribute greatly to that end. These will enable the aged to remain independent and self-sufficient for as long as possible while they obtain the necessary nutritional, medical and other assistance from such a centre. I believe that service centres to a large extent offer the solution for the safe and proper care of our aged while they are still active in the community to a lesser or greater extent.

As regards accommodation as such, it must be accepted that in this sphere as well the State is not able to meet the need alone, and that the private sector has a role to play. As part of a possible co-operation package, consideration could beneficially be given to possible increased State contributions to the various organisations that provide welfare housing, and particularly to assistance to employers who themselves make a contribution to retirement villages for their retired staff members. I should like to associate myself with what the hon the Minister recently said, namely that this is an area that could beneficially be explored in that the private sector could provide ordinary accommodation and the State could then provide the necessary supportive services by means of a well-equipped service centre.

What requires the most urgent attention at present is the position of the infirm aged, who are no longer able to look after themselves and who need almost continuous care. I am advocating more generous and speedier appropriation of State funds for the construction of care units for them at the existing centres for the care of the aged. In cooperation with the service centres urgent consideration must also be given to the desirability, possibly on a reasonable basis as well, to the construction of units to which the infirm aged can be transferred when they are no longer able to remain in the existing institutions, but do not have adequate facilities for their care.

By means of agreements with the organisations in question the admission of such aged persons to central care centres, when necessary, can be assured. By establishing such specialised centres the operating costs of the existing institutions, which are orientated to a greater extent to the aged who are able to help themselves, could probably be reduced considerably in that they will not have to bear the heavy expenses of such care units. It could also entail that the contributions these institutions require their occupants to make, could be lower because they could be brought into line to a greater extent with their actual expenditure. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, to commence with, I should like to address a word of congratulations to Mr Callie Reynecke. It is really a pity that he did not grow up in the Western Province. It is true, however, that Transvaal is playing very good rugby this year. We shall therefore overlook it. [Interjections.]

I should also like to say to my good friend the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke, who, I believe, has not yet learnt to get the feel of Parliament so well, that to be peevish (suurmoerig) in this House, is the biggest mistake one can make. [Interjections.] Yes, I am telling the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke that to be peevish in this House, will still cost him dearly. [Interjections.] Yes, never mind, it is a new word. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, they are wasting my time now.

Order!

They are wasting my time now, Sir.

Order! Would the hon member for Beaufort West just resume his seat for a moment, please? Hon members must not compel me to reprimand them individually about their noisy conversations. I cannot allow hon members to sit and converse aloud. We cannot continue in this vein. The hon member for Beaufort West may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I should like to address the hon member for Middelburg. He seems like a mild-mannered fellow to me. I regard myself to be a mild-mannered person, too. Perhaps the two of us could therefore walk the path together.

It was unavoidable that the establishment of regional services councils would be accompanied by political emotion, which ranges from the greatest optimism to complete pessimism and opposition, but unfortunately also deliberate ignorance sometimes. Fortunately the NP has never been guilty of pessimism, and it is not going to do so now or in future. I believe that as the first regional services councils are put in operation and their usefulness as democratic local government institutions becomes apparent to everyone; as soon as they begin to work properly and they begin to meet the expectations of people, the opposition and pessimism will disappear and make way for positive attitudes amongst all levels of the community, even amongst those who are presently criticising so vehemently without making a single positive contribution to meaningful constitutional reform.

I have heard, Mr Chairman, that the West Cape Regional Services Council, under the chairmanship of Mr Pietie Loubser, is already getting off the ground exceptionally well. Regional services councils are definitely going to influence the functions of local authorities, but as I see it, that influence will emerge gradually and will depend to a very large extent on what progress is made, in the first instance, with the taking over of own affairs functions by own affairs institutions, and secondly, which functions the municipalities, city councils, management committees, Black town councils, and so on, transfer to the regional services councils of their own free will, and thirdly, how many general affairs functions these local authorities are going to perform on behalf of and at the expense of the regional services councils.

We must bear in mind firstly that regional services councils are being established primarily to make decisions about general affairs at the regional level, and to see to it that those decisions are carried out, and secondly to render large-scale services as economically as possible. If a RSC has the machinery, manpower and equipment to carry out those decisions itself, that is fine. Then it will do so. This is in fact what is happening in the Cape Province because legislation piloted through this Parliament makes provision for the entire infrastructure of divisional councils to be transferred intact to RSCs and for them to use that structure to carry out their decisions. Because the complete list of functions of an RSC, as stated in the Act, and the functions of the now outmoded divisional councils, with the exception of a few own affairs functions, are in agreement, the RSC will therefore have no problem in practice in carrying on the good work of the divisional councils, but with one major difference, that its decisions are being made in a much more democratic way.

By way of appointments!

I am coming to that.

In reality, in the process of taking over divisional councils, the RSC will also deal with the own affairs functions which, strictly speaking, should not be the responsibility of an RSC. For the sake of continuity, these functions will have to be accommodated in that way, and, as has already been mentioned, until such time as those functions are transferred to own affairs institutions.

I believe that in the Cape Province the RSCs will have little if any influence on the own affairs functions of other local authorities, such as municipalities. The reason for this is that the RSCs are basically not concerned with own affairs unless they are requested by such an institution to render a service or carry out a task. As a matter of fact, the RSC will have the greatest influence on the divisional councils, since it swallows them whole, and the only ingredients that are not digested, are the tax system and the representation.

Taking over their functions can take place gradually, and the RSCs can also carry out those functions that are not taken over, or are not taken over immediately, on an agency basis on behalf of the body to which the function has been assigned.

Even if the RSC does not have its own comprehensive personnel, as it appears is the position in the other provinces, it does not make those RSCs less or more effective than the RSCs in the Cape Province. We must not miss the most important point, viz the decision-making process at the regional level which the RSCs make possible and the power to generate and apply revenue in the region. Who implements those decisions and who collects revenue on behalf of the RSCs, is secondary. It is of lesser importance. One or all of the local authorities in that region which have the necessary manpower, expertise, machinery and equipment and can carry out the function of the RSCs in the most economical way, must do so, and the RSCs pay them for it.

The policy of privatisation of this Parliament could be put in operation at the same time, where necessary or desirable. I would think that it would be easier to privatise in the three northern provinces than in the Cape Province, where the staff and implement structure at divisional councils could possibly have a temporary delaying effect. The RSCs will be responsible for providing certain municipal services as effectively and economically as possible in each individual region; to every farmer and the labourer on his farm, from the Cape right up to the Limpopo, every square centimetre of this beautiful country.

Speaking of the influence of RSCs on the functions of local authorities in the RSA, we could say that it will be a healthy influence, since it is going to co-ordinate and rationalise, and it is also going to eliminate duplication and bring about savings. For certain municipalities it may even …[Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon the Minister on the staff who look after his department. We congratulated Messrs Reyneke, Gerber, Koekemoer and Karsen, and we want to thank them for the work they have done thus far. We trust that they will be able to place this department on a sound footing.

I want to tell the hon the Minister that as a jurist he shares one aspect with me, and that is that no point becomes better if one makes it twenty times over. I want to associate myself with all hon members on all sides of the Commitee who made pleas for the aged, for housing and for the care of all the indigent.

I also take it amiss of the hon member for Parys for saying that the CP takes no notice at all of the needs of the infirm aged. [Interjections.] I think that was an uncalled-for and unfounded statement. He has no proof whatsoever for that statement of his. I think it was in poor taste and merely for political gain. [Interjections.]

Another member, the hon member for Klip River, said that we would rather deal with barbarians than with sensible people who had received training. I want to tell him that that was just as uncalled for. I regard no-one in this country as a barbarian, and I do not wish to negotiate with barbarians. Nor do I want to see any barbarians in this country. Insofar as I have negotiated with people of other races or of my own, I have never negotiated with a barbarian. The closest I ever came to that was this evening when I listened to him. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member is insinuating that an hon member of this House is a barbarian. [Interjections.]

He said it was the closest he had ever come to it.

Order! The word “barbarian” is not permitted in this House if it refers to an hon member. The hon member for Bethal did not refer to an hon member, however, and he may proceed. [Interjections.]

Thank you, Sir.

I should like to speak about the question of the restoration of buildings, since I see that the committee responsible for the preservation of Church Square also falls under this hon Minister’s portfolio. I should like to know from the hon the Minister whether he was consulted about, or possibly gave approval for, the new development of the central metropolitan area of Pretoria, which will also include Church Square. I should also like to ask the hon the Minister whether he was consulted about the propaganda—at this stage I still regard it as propaganda—that the statue of Pres Kruger will be moved to another corner of Church Square.

No, we are not going to put A P Treurnicht there. [Interjections.]

I greatly appreciate the remark of the hon member that a statue of Dr Treurnicht could stand on Church Square. We in the CP feel exceptionally honoured that he is mentioned in the same breath as Pres Kruger. [Interjections.] He is indeed an Afrikaner of the same calibre. [Interjections.]

However, I want to ask the hon the Minister if he would consider having the restoration of buildings, for example the old Law Chambers on Church Square, take place on the basis of privatisation. This building has special meaning for the advocates’ profession, since it is the building in which the first advocates were housed. If the hon the Minister would consider having this building restored on the same basis as the Supreme Court in Johannesburg, in that the facade of the building is retained and the section behind it is turned into functionally effective offices, it could be that this part of the private sector would be interested in bearing the costs of such restoration, if the hon the Minister were to enter into a long-lease contract with them, thereby enabling the State to save a great deal of money. [Interjections.] I think the same could be done with the old Netherlands Bank Building on Church Square. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, I should appreciate it if I could have your protection so that I can at least let my voice carry as far as the hon the Minister, with whom I should like to converse, if other hon members do not wish to listen. [Interjections.]

Order! Again there are hon members who are making remarks that are not relevant to this debate at all. I am definitely not going to permit this any longer. The hon member for Bethal may proceed.

As far as the transfer of functions is concerned, I should like to know from the hon the Minister whether some of the functions of the Peri-Urban Areas Board in the Transvaal are going to be transferred to his department, and what the position is going to be in this regard.

Heunis alone knows.

Since education and hospital services have already been transferred to the hon the Minister’s department, I should like to know from him whether works, such as the building of schools and hospitals, have also been transferred to his department, or if this is still being envisaged, when this will happen. This department does have a works component, and since those affairs have been classified as own affairs, I think that the works component of education and hospital services should also be transferred to this department.

I do not wish to say anything further about regional services councils, but since the hon the Minister is heading a department of own affairs, I think it is his duty to protect these own affairs. Local government is classified as an own affair in Schedule 1, whilst regional services councils fulfil a general function and consist of components from different councils or population groups of this Parliament, which is clearly a general composition. The question arises whether the fact that it is compulsory for a local authority to belong to it, does not violate the rights of local authorities, which is an own affair, and does not water down this own affair and make it subject to a general affair and a general authority, which means that it is a silent amendment of Schedule 1. [Interjections.] Should this Regional Services Councils Act not have been passed in terms of the provisions of section 99(3) of the Constitution? [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure and a privilege for me to participate in this debate this evening, because local government and housing comprise one of the key elements in an orderly governmental dispensation, but they also remain one of the most important components in the process of shaping our own affairs concept, as laid down in the Republic of South Africa Constitution Act of 1983.

Repeat …

Order! That remark by the hon member for Losberg has made no contribution whatsoever to this debate. I am no longer going to permit such remarks to be made in this Committee. The hon member for Humansdorp may continue.

Unlike the Official Opposition on that side of the Committee, we believe that there is nothing and no one that is more able to give substance to our concept of self-determination than specifically this department, and of course its counterparts in the other Houses. Listening as one has been to the debate from that side of the Committee, one gets the feeling that the Official Opposition is completely without feeling when it comes to the needs of people of colour. [Interjections.]

Just not with us.

Let us just tell them again that we have received a mandate from the voters to proceed along this course, and regardless of what hon members of the CP may say, we shall continue to do what is right for the country in which we are living. [Interjections.]

What course?

We want to thank the hon the Minister and his officials for the great work they have done since the Development and Housing Act of 1985 was passed approximately two years’ ago. We also thank the department for the fine and comprehensive annual report for 1986, which has been submitted to us, and for the friendly and helpful way in which the functions of the department have been explained to us.

In the few minutes at my disposal I should like to say a few words about the Development and Housing Board. Hon members are aware of the fact that this board was established in terms of section 2(1) of the Housing and Development Act, 1985, to replace the National Housing Commission and the Community Development Board as far as the implementation of central government functions in regard to area development and housing in declared White areas are concerned. The board was constituted at the beginning of 1986, for a period of two years, under the chairmanship of Mr W J Marais, and we should like to take this opportunity of thanking him and his board very sincerely for the work they have done so far, and wish them everything of the best for the mammoth task that lies ahead.

Why are they not elected?

I want to give a brief description of the functions of this board. Firstly it is there to assist with the orderly development of declared White areas. Secondly its task is to prevent and put an end to urban decay, and thirdly to obtain land for the provision of housing and community facilities, and to provide such facilities where necessary. The board has a development and housing fund into which all money paid to the board is deposited, and this fund is administered as a revolving fund. With effect from 1 April sections 12 to 18 of the Act were implemented by way of proclamation 55 of 1987. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are talking too loudly.

The implication is that the National Housing Fund has been divided up and that assets for the exclusive use of the White population group have been paid into the development and housing fund. The initial balance at that stage was approximately R55,5 million, and in the present housing budget, apart from the repaid capital and interest, provision has also been made for an additional R10,17 million from the Treasury. One of the most important functions of the board and the department is that of making a proper assessment of all housing needs. In fact, that is the first basic step in the provision of housing. For the meaningful implementation of this function, it has become necessary to establish a comprehensive data base for the purposes of policy, socioeconomic, physical and financial planning.

At present the board and the department have a computerised data base system, generally known as the housing data bank. Because the funds of the board are of course limited, advance planning and the careful determination of priorities are of the utmost importance. [Interjections.]

Order!

I therefore want to emphasise that the contributions made by local authorities, housing and utility companies and welfare organisations towards the collection of data are of the utmost importance.

I also want to emphasise that it is vital for the said bodies to participate in the system in a responsible fashion and give it their dedicated support, because only by virtue of their punctilious and correct participation can the own needs of their communities be focussed upon and placed on the priority list. Precise instructions about procedures relating to surveys and applications are obtainable from the department.

In thanking the department for the advertising campaign it launched in an effort to reach all parties involved in the provision of housing, we particularly want to encourage the local authorities to give the department regular, up-dated information about the needs of their communities.

In the determination of these needs the hon the Minister has also pointed out certain shortcomings which we should guard against, shortcomings which he dealt with in detail, but which I do not want to go into again at this stage.

Although we accept the principle that it is primarily the responsibility of the individual to provide for his own housing needs and those of his family, we shall always have those who need assistance from the authorities.

If we do a breakdown, we see that our important welfare needs fall into the nought to 30 category—the hon member for East London City has already pointed this out—those with an income of less than R1 000 per month. There is a need of approximately 15 000. In the over 60 category, those with an income of less than R850 per month, there is a need of approximately 5 500. It is in this category that State assistance is most urgently needed. Some of my other colleagues have already spoken about that and will be examining the question in greater detail at a later stage. All I want to say is that we therefore accept the fact that the State will always be involved in playing a supportive role in the provision of welfare housing. For that reason I wholeheartedly want to support this Vote on behalf of this side of the House and wish the hon the Minister and his department everything of the best for the great task that lies ahead.

Mr Chairman, I want to speak about housing … [Interjections.]

Order! It is only the hon member for Greytown who has the floor.

Thank you, Sir.

I should like to speak to the hon the Minister about a matter I addressed last year, and that is the whole question of housing subsidies and how the State deals with that aspect. Many hon members have referred to the fact that negotiations are taking place between the hon the Minister and the other team of Housing Ministers on the whole question of housing and the policy relating to it. If one looks at what one actually has as far as policy is concerned, one sees that there are very great differences from one department to another, particularly from the point of view of people who are on the receiving end of the various policies being implemented.

These are own affairs.

If, for example, we look at housing in the category of a subsidy of one third and a loan of 90%, we see, for example, that someone with a loan of R40 000, at present interest rates, will have to repay approximately R600 per month, and that with a subsidy of one third, he will receive R200 per month from the State.

Using the ordinary formula, ie that one should pay about one quarter of one’s income for housing, we find that in such a case the building societies require such a person to earn R1 600 per month. So the State is prepared to subsidise someone earning R1 600 per month to the tune of approximately R200 per month if that person has obtained a loan of R40 000. What is strange is that if one obtained a loan for half that amount—R20 000—one would receive only half of that subsidy. This applies to people earning approximately R800 per month.

What I am trying to say is that here we have a case of: The wealthier one is, the greater one’s subsidy from the State. If we look at other loans which are available, for example in regard to the self-help schemes for Blacks, we see that they relate to people with an income of even less than R200, people such as construction workers. They receive a loan from the State for materials to allow them to proceed with their self-help projects.

Those who are, in fact, construction workers and do earn such salaries leave for work at four o’clock in the morning and return home at eight o’clock in the evening. Such people receive a meagre subsidy from the State and are expected to build a house for themselves between 20h00 and 04h00.

Then hon members ask why Black people speak of socialism. If the Black man looks around him, he sees that teachers and everyone working for the State—including Blacks in that area—obtaining loans of between R30 000 and R50 000, while those in the employ of the private sector, in fact on the lower rungs of the ladder, who work very hard and are completely dedicated to their jobs, find themselves struggling to get a shack, because in the new White Paper on Urbanisation we have said that we are going to lower standards to such an extent that those people could only build hovels.

Your speech is a hovel.

The hon member must listen to me, because soon he will be asking me where these socialistic tendencies come from. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member if there are any Whites in the country who are members of the ANC and, if so, how many?

Apart from you!

That would be giving away secrets which, of course, is against the law, but if we are speaking about countries abroad, there are probably many ANC members, because there it is not a sin. In any event, I think that question is out of order.

Order! The question does not have any bearing on the Vote.

When the hon the Minister is again consulting the other Ministers entrusted with housing, they should examine the whole question of the contribution the State makes towards helping people seeking homes so that this can be done on a logical basis. So let us not say that the more a person earns, the more assistance he gets from the State. That is certainly not good for free enterprise, reinforcing as it does the “haves” and “have-nots” dichotomy.

That is a bit of criticism of the hon the Minister which I am sure will not surprise hon members. I do, however, want to congratulate, thank and commend the hon the Minister. [Interjections.] Just to prevent a point of order being brought against us, let me tell the hon member for Bellville that it is stated here that for various reasons regional services councils are up for discussion: Because the Act itself states the fact and also because the hon the Minister has been given certain terms of reference.

In regard to the regional services councils I have to compliment the hon the Minister on his complete mastery of deception. [Interjections.] He confounds all theories on deductive analysis and dialectics and theories of cause and effect. He increases public expectations about the predictions of politicians always being wrong to an unparalleled ecstasy of gratification. The predictions are in direct conflict with the promises.

Just as certain politicians on the Government side, for example, predict that if one voted yes, eternal peace would descend on South Africa, the regional services councils were said to be an extension of democracy, etc.

I thank the hon the Minister for not having disappointed the public in its expectation that politicians would perhaps be right one day. He did not shatter their expectations, because what is strangest of all—this is what is ironic—is that what he said extended the boundaries of democracy had precisely the opposite effect, because those for whom the boundaries of democracy were supposed to have been extended, say that it is not the case, whilst those on this side who say that the boundaries of democracy have, in fact, been extended, say that they have. The effect of this was precisely the opposite of the expectations which were created. Why? Specifically because the hon the Minister is a master of deception.

The other matter is the contribution to job-creation. The taxation system of the regional services councils creates a problem for those employing people because taxes are levied on the number of people employed. My understanding of the matter is therefore that the hon the Minister’s contribution to job-creation is probably aimed at forcing everyone in the private sector to acquire machines so that the hon the Minister can ultimately have a bunch of unemployed people whom he can provide with work in the regional services councils. I think that in that respect the hon the Minister’s contribution to job-creation is that everyone will ultimately be employed in the realisation of “the grand plan”. [Interjections.]

Let us speak about the tax being levied. I think the hon the Minister has elevated the extraction of money to a fine art, one which would be the envy of the pickpockets of a Acra, leaving them speechless. Man alone, like an octopus with a thousand arms and hundreds of tentacles, he pries into people’s pockets to steal their small change. (Time expired.)

Mr Chairman, I wonder whether the hon member was as funny when he was in Dakar. [Interjections.]

He had “Gastrow”.

It is clear that the hon member has not yet recovered from his journey. With the greatest respect and esteem for the hon member I want to say that only he will know how he put the stuff he said here tonight together. In the first place he has a completely erroneous perception of a regional services council; after all, he had a lot to say about perceptions.

Secondly, the hon member really had no idea of what assistance the State is rendering to the respective population groups in respect of housing. [Interjections.] He could have read page 15, and what follows, in the annual report while he was in Dakar. [Interjections.] If he examines the liaison and co-ordination of housing matters, he will see precisely what is being dealt with there. [Interjections.]

Furthermore, I want to remind the hon member that the State paid an amount of R400 million into the housing trust quite recently. This is aimed primarily at helping those who cannot afford it to acquire housing. Surely that is a different perspective, but the hon member conveyed the same perspective which his speech conveyed tonight in Dakar as well. [Interjections.] Sir, with such an hon member and his contribution we shall make no progress in South Africa at all. [Interjections.]

With all due respect to him, I want to tell the hon member that the limit of R40 000 does not apply only in the case of subsidies for Whites, and that it has nothing to do with people employed by the State. The limit of R40 000 and the 33⅓% …

… is applicable to everyone.

… is applicable to everyone, yes, but the hon member did not say so. He must read his own speech, and he will see what he really said tonight.

Go back to Dakar, Pierre!

Perhaps the hon member should take the Constitution and the annual reports along with him, and as he reads the reports, forget what he wanted to go and do in Dakar. [Interjections.]

I should like to reply to the contributions which a few hon members made this evening.

Do you know where Dakar is? [Interjections.]

The hon member for Sandton can participate in the debate if he wishes; he is very welcome to do so. [Interjections.]

I should like to deal with two matters before I reply to a few questions. In the first place I want to say—hon members will see this in the annual report—that we have since last year been making special arrangements to get local authorities together on a regional basis to inform them about housing and other related matters, such as policy, as well as to hold consultations. In fact, four conferences were held in this connection last year. This procedure will continue in 1987. In various fields my department liaises closely with local government institutions.

In this connection I should like to say that the department and I welcome the ministerial representatives who have been appointed. In carrying out their duties, under the powers delegated to them, they ensure that even more effective direct liaison on the local government level will be possible in future. In this way it will be possible to continue these housing conferences on a regional basis in future, under the direction of the ministerial representatives. I should also like to say that the department and I have appreciation for the work that has been done so far, and we look forward to pleasant co-operation with our ministerial representatives. Their appointment also demonstrates that the Government is in earnest about bringing government closer to the community. I should like to wish them everything of the best in their task.

The hon member for Humansdorp referred inter alia to the Development and Housing Board. I should also like to thank this board and its members, under the chairmanship of Mr Willie Marais, for the great task they are performing so painstakingly and accurately. This is a body which does indeed give very good advice. This board was established in terms of the first own affairs legislation passed by this House, and I am under the impression that it is functioning proficiently in all respects.

Since 1 April of this year the development fund has fallen completely under the control of this board. Sections 12 to 18 of the Development and Housing Act have been put into operation. It is a rotating fund, of which the initial balance was R55 478 084. The final balance will be determined upon closure. What is important, is that this fund also offers security, so that there will be money for housing, for the Whites, every year. On this basis it has also been assured, not only that it will be possible to deal with control over the funds in such a way that it can continuously be expanded, but also so that it can be utilised where it is needed the most.

This evening I should like to say—various hon members referred to this—that it is important that we should concentrate and apply our funds where they are needed the most. In this connection I shall refer to just a few facets of welfare housing.

†The hon member for Constantia made a specific plea regarding the position of Constantia as a local area. I shall deal with this matter in detail tomorrow afternoon when I reply to the debate. It is of course of interest, as the hon member for East London City remarked in lighter vein, that while the hon member and his party are against the concept of regional services councils, he is now making a plea for representation for Constantia on the RSC. The hon member can make an earnest plea but I think that what it amounts to is that the hon member intends to participate in regional services councils since I think he is of the opinion that regional services councils can in fact render a service to the people of Constantia. I shall be replying to him in detail tomorrow afternoon.

There really is no choice; you know that.

The hon member for Constantia has spelt out four options. The hon member should consult his colleague to find out about the options.

The hon member for Cape Town Gardens made a very sincere plea this afternoon as regards four matters in respect of the elderly. Firstly, as the hon member knows, with regard to rent control I spelt out certain protection measures for elderly people, regardless of the phasing-out process which is an ongoing process at present.

They still cannot afford many of the flats, even under rent control.

Yes, but that is one of the measures we take to protect elderly people. Accordingly, irrespective of their income, those aged people who are seventy years and older will, regardless of their income, remain as tenants and be protected. That is one measure at least.

Then, too, there is a committee of inquiry into housing for the aged under the Development and Housing Board, which is devoting attention to the problems experienced by the aged. Its report is expected to address the question of the scarcity of affordable housing.

Thirdly, I should like to say that there is a standards committee for welfare housing which is also investigating the rent formula in respect of housing for the aged that is provided with the aid of public funds.

Furthermore, I should like to say that approximately 70% of the funds available to the department for housing is spent on welfare housing and facilities, especially for the aged. The provision of service centres to assist the aged to continue living independently is given a high priority. This is a matter which the hon member for East London City also raised.

As regards the other matter concerning the security of elderly people, the hon member knows that I made certain announcements during the Second Reading debate on the Budget, and I shall be providing more detail in regard to the protection measures as far as our department is concerned. The hon member is most welcome to take the matter up further with the relevant committee of the Development and Housing Board, and he should feel free to approach us with further suggestions.

The hon member for Parow also referred to the rent formula today. I should like to thank him for his remarks. The aim of the rent formula is to afford relief to the lower income groups. A person will in future pay rental according to an applicable percentage of his income until a stage is reached when the full market-related economic rent is paid. The most important criterion is that a person’s income will in future determine the monthly rental. I shall arrange that details of the new formula be made known to the various local authorities and other interested parties with a view to the implementation of the relevant measures.

I trust—and I think this is also important with regard to the plea of the hon member for Gardens—that this relief will also benefit the lower-income groups in our country.

*Then I should like to refer to the question of liaison, which the hon member for Claremont touched upon. With regard to the question of liaison, I just want to refer the hon member to the annual report, to the section on the Committee of Housing Ministers, how this committee is constituted and what matters inter alia are dealt with there. The hon member can read about it in detail in chapter 3 and he can then, if need be, make further representations in this connection.

I should like to thank the hon member Mr Danie van Gend. He made a very well argued speech this afternoon. As regards section 47—dealing with conversion—I want to say that I take appreciative cognizance of the hon member’s observations in this connection. As the hon member knows, the objects of the Act are to maintain and make available the existing housing supply, to the extent to which that is possible. At the same time I concede that the objects should not be rigidly applied and that factors such as the zoning of an area—where the house is situated—could be an important factor in granting a conversion permit. Personally I am of the opinion, and I am saying this subject to the qualification of possible statutory amendment, that if a person owns business premises on which he pays tax, he should be entitled to carry out those business transactions for which they are zoned on those premises. Consequently my attitude to the hon member’s observations is quite positive. As the hon member may perhaps know, the laws on development and housing are under review now in any case, and I shall also have an enquiry instituted into the extent to which it is possible to address this matter, which the hon member mentioned here this afternoon, positively.

Then I also want to say—this is also my own standpoint—that I think this is a power which we can transfer to local authorities, and I shall give the necessary attention to this matter as well.

As regards the question of the housing policy, the hon member expressed very interesting ideas here this afternoon. I think it is important that one should make provision for one’s children’s housing. I should like to tell the hon member that I have taken cognizance of this matter and his argument, and if he wishes to make any further additions, he is welcome to do so. I shall have the matter looked into by the Development and Housing Council, and I shall also convey it to the Committee of Housing Ministers with a view to further enquiry into the matter.

I want to tell the hon member—he admitted this himself—that logically there are certain financial implications involved here, but I think it deserves investigation, and I hope in fact that we will be able to give the hon member a satisfactory reply. In conjunction with this I also want to point out that there is in fact a home owner’s savings scheme, which is also being investigated at present, and which provides at present that an additional 3% interest shall be added, with a maximum savings figure of R20 000.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

Can the hon member tell me whether it deals with the subject I am now dealing with?

It deals with the reference the hon Minister made to me.

I shall give the hon member an opportunity to put his question, but I just want to complete my argument first, if I may.

With the home owner’s savings scheme a maximum amount of R20 000 can be saved with a building society, to which the State adds 3% interest. These benefits can be built up over a period of 10 years with the view to buying a plot. It is also a form of making provision for being able to acquire a plot. I think we should deal with this matter in conjunction with the housing policy matter and see whether we can eventually arrive at a satisfactory answer.

The hon member for Parys, the hon member for East London City and the hon member for Humansdorp all referred to the issues of welfare housing, care of the aged, facilities for the infirm aged and so on. Firstly it is interesting, when the hon members referred to the survey of requirements, that out of this total figure of 27 000 plus, which I mentioned this afternoon, there are 19 734 people over the age of 60 years who desire some form of housing or other.

The fact remains that we are for the most part employing these funds, as I indicated a moment ago, for welfare housing. That is why I should like to support hon members in the idea that an elderly person should remain in his or her community for as long as possible. The fact of the matter is therefore that if we want to accomplish this, attention will have to be given to specific community facilities in the form of service centres and the service that can be rendered. Institutions for the care of the infirm aged imply that the State has to subsidise them, and the demand for funds in this connection is heavy. In the discussion of his Vote the hon the Minister of the Budget and Welfare, too, has already dealt with this matter. The Ministers’ Council accepted the policy, quite some time ago, that there should be absolute co-ordination between the two departments in determining priorities so as to make certain that the money is applied where the need is greatest.

During a discussion this colleague and I had with welfare organisations I also indicated a few general shifts in emphasis in the policy of the department in respect of the rendering of assistance for welfare housing. For example the interest rate of 1% per annum which applies in respect of the aged, will have to be revised for more affluent aged persons. Secondly, the method of determining priorities will have to involve the ministerial representatives. The priorities must be determined in the various regions under the direction of the ministerial representatives. Thirdly provision must be made in future and funds provided, for the physical safeguarding of the aged. Fourthly the department will make funds available for service centre, or, as an alternative, provide community facilities in cases where there is no operating costs implication. Apart from the aged in private dwellings, these facilities can also serve the inhabitants of retirement resorts. Fifthly, the possibility of shortening periods of redemption must also be looked into, particularly in the case of projects that have been combined with retirement resorts.

Through co-operation and co-ordination between two departments it has been possible, for the past few years to appropriate ample funds for welfare housing. In 1984 it was R66 million; in 1985, R56 million; in 1986, R44 million; and in addition there was a further R41 million which was spent on childcare institutions in 1981. We shall have to accept that when we are dealing with funds which we have to apply as efficaciously as possible, we cannot afford luxuries.

The hon member for Parys made a valid point in this regard. I am not in any way implying that I am advocating an inferior standard. After all, each of us has an inherent pride in our dwelling, but it must be limited by the acceptance of realistic standards. Hon members made me aware that the housing projects we have initiated with State aid contained specified minimum standards. This standard raise down a rational cost per capita and these per capita norms are regularly reviewed. Consequently it is not really possible to deviate from them. In fact we may have to apply these more strictly in future, precisely in order to use funds as efficaciously as possible.

When standards are deviated from in future, the welfare organisation or body will consequently have to pay the difference itself, without being able to recover it from the inhabitants. Exceptions will have to be limited to the absolute minimum. It is therefore important that such organisations should undertake the planning of projects in consultation with experts in the department from the word go. If they plan realistically, we will be able to help more people.

The department will remain responsible for providing housing to those who cannot afford it and who are unable to obtain funds from the private sector. The State will always be involved in this matter, and play a role in this connection. For that reason I want to say that my department and I associate ourselves with the standpoints of hon members that we should give particular consideration to affordable housing for those people who are not able to help themselves. At the same time we will have to proceed and plan and set our sights in such a way that we can achieve our objectives to a maximum extent with the money at our disposal.

In respect of requests by hon members that have operating costs implications, we will look at the proposals and we shall also discuss them with the hon the Minister of the Budget and Welfare.

I hope that I have replied adequately to hon members requests, and I thank them for the good wishes they conveyed to the department. I find it gratifying to hear someone’s favourable comment under the department, the departmental head and the other officials.

The hon member for Bethal put quite a number of questions. He has even began to move the statutes. I shall reply to the hon member in detail tomorrow, but I just want to reply now to one matter he raised. As regards his question on the restoration of the Old Law Chambers, as part of the western facade of Church Square, I have been informed that the buildings fall under the Transvaal Provincial Administration. At present they are having the buildings restored by a private contractor. The Church Square Committee has approved certain smaller alterations to the existing buildings as part of the restoration project. In any case I have also, in terms of the Act, have conveyed the hon member’s request to the Chairman of the Church Square Committee, Mr Gerber, who is Chief Director of my department. He has taken cognisance of it. I shall have more to say tomorrow about the transfer of functions and so on.

The hon member for South Coast apologized for not being able to be here this evening. I shall react to his request tomorrow.

I shall reply tomorrow to the other hon members whom I have not replied to this evening.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question in regard to his reference to the Committee of Ministers entrusted with Housing? In Chapter 3 of the Annual Report the task of the committee is referred to as follows:

With reference to that, I want to ask him whether the problems of non-Whites as a result of the lack of accommodation in the non-White areas are also referred to the Housing Advisory Council.

Mr Chairman, the respective Ministers involved in the provision of housing in respect of the various population groups are represented on the Committee of Ministers entrusted with housing. The composition of that committee is indicated in the report as well as the matters which receive attention. The fact is simply that the Housing Advisory Council, under the chairmanship of Mr Boet Viljoen, brings out and submits reports covering the entire spectrum of housing and the respective Ministers and the departments take cognisance of them. Any matter which causes a bottleneck, can therefore be submitted to the Committee of Ministers entrusted with housing, where they will be considered and if necessary submitted for advice to the respective housing Ministers and then addressed.

Mr Chairman, a great deal has been said today about housing and the need for housing. It has also been said that the way in which housing is being administered in our country is Marxistic, whilst it has also been stated that it is being administered well. Every speaker, however, strongly emphasised that there was a need for housing and that we would like to ensure that all our people who wanted homes could obtain them. We all desire to see everyone in our country who wants a home, or who wants to own one, being assisted, with opportunities being created for them to achieve that ideal for themselves.

The hon the Minister of Local Government and the officials assisting him are fully aware of the heartfelt desires of the man in the street. They are continually engaged in schemes to make it possible or easier for people to obtain homes. Consequently many measures to assist people are receiving attention and many have already come into operation. People wanting to obtain homes make ample use of these measures. They are of great value to them, and those potential home-buyers approach the department asking for assistance. And there are many measures available to assist them, and here I shall refer to a few.

There is the direct assistance granted by the Development and Housing Board, township development projects—I shall return to this at a later stage—interest subsidies on bond loans and State-supported home-ownership schemes for young people who would like to start saving. A savings account is opened with a view to eventually purchasing a home, and if the State is notified of this fact, the State pays an additional 3% interest on the money such people invest—on condition, of course, that it is eventually used only for building or buying a house.

Then there are the 90% housing loans, the self-help building schemes, and then the very good one already mentioned here, the 33⅓% interest subsidy scheme. Here I want to associate myself with the hon member for Bellville who spoke about that this morning. This involves the assistance granted to first-time home buyers. All of us have been first-time home buyers at some time or other in our lives, but such schemes were not always available to us, and that is why we appreciate the fact that there is something of this nature today to help people obtain homes. This helps towns to develop and urban areas to expand.

We normally see township development as involving new areas added to an existing town. It is therefore an extension of the area as a whole. Assistance is not granted solely for that, however, because there are towns, particularly older towns, which have large plots of land within their municipal areas. Towns have developed, and alongside the towns there were usually small agricultural holdings of two to five acres and sometimes even larger. Towns may have developed to such an extent that they have swallowed up that land which today is actually a burden to them. That is why we appreciate this assistance being given so that people who own that land, and cannot develop it because they simply do not have the financial means to do so, can be assisted by way of the subdivision of those plots. They are then able to sell them because these loan schemes enable potential buyers to develop the plots.

That is an asset for any town, and also a tremendous godsend for those people. It is land which would otherwise just lie there unutilised, because normally there is an agricultural title deed attached, although no one can actually farm the land. It is impossible. One cannot do so in a town. So when those large plots of land are subdivided, it is in the interests of both the town and the land-owners. I want to point out to hon members that we sometimes see a red warning light, telling us at times that we should consider whether we are not building too many houses too quickly. It is a danger signal I have spotted, and I hope others will also see it when I have explained the issue here. We must not overplay our hand and simply keep on building houses. In many towns there are already many houses standing empty because there are not enough people to occupy them.

We all hanker for the time, approximately six years ago, when there was an upsurge in the building industry. At the time there was such a demand for houses that they were already sold when the foundations were laid. Supply could not keep pace with demand. At one stage things were so bad that our brickmaking firms could not meet the demand for deliveries, and permission was even granted for bricks to be imported.

We would all like to see those days again, but in my opinion we shall never again do so in this fine country of ours. The demand for houses for Whites has decreased significantly, because there are no Whites to buy the houses. When we look at the houses standing empty in our towns, it is with a sense of bitterness that we accept the fact that there are more houses available than there are people who want to live in them.

Earlier in the debate a figure of 37 000 houses was mentioned, a figure which is possibly incorrect—I myself have my doubts—but if we accept that there are 30 000 houses standing empty—that is still a high figure—and we calculate that each house is worth R50 000, a figure which is actually too low, we see that there is an amount of R1 500 million lying unutilised, and that is something our country cannot afford these days.

I also want to associate myself with the hon member for Bellville’s request that the hon the Minister and his department re-examine the possibility of extending assistance to new home-buyers—at present the assistance relates only to new homes—so as to make it applicable to existing houses as well. Today one can buy very good, decent houses for R40 000 to R50 000. That is the amount which is available, excluding the price of the land. We should like to see first-time home buyers buying such homes too. We do not expect them to buy old houses that nobody wants; that is not necessary. There are decent houses on the market and I think that if such facilities were available when we bought our first houses, we would gladly have made use of them. If we had made use of them and bought a home in that way, we would have been very proud of such an asset. Those facilities do exist today, and I hope they will be extended and that we shall make it easier for people to obtain houses which are now standing empty.

I also want to thank the hon the Minister for having said here that he would look into the granting of assistance for the establishment of retirement villages. I think there are many of our people who would like to live in such retirement villages if they existed.

I also want to mention something that perhaps belongs more to the welfare field, but I do think it is relevant here … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to speak about our senior citizens and the housing dilemma they have found themselves in during the past few years. It is probably no easy matter for a parent, particularly a mother, to go and live with her children. Frequently the children, the husband and wife, have to work, and then the mother sits at home all day, alone and lonely, waiting for the children to return in the evenings. Often the house in which the children are living is so small that it does not have an extra room for their mother to stay in. Such old people are often reduced to loneliness and penury. They often end up lonely and miserable.

We sometimes read newspaper or magazine articles about old people who have been dead for several days before their bodies are found. It seems as if there is little interest in their welfare.

Something which is of very great concern to the aged is inflation. We are all aware of the fact that inflation causes our aged financial distress. For example, a house which cost R20 000 15 years ago, costs R70 000 today. That is solely due to inflation.

We are all aware of the fact that inflation reduces the value of the money in our purses.

Milk, for example, which cost 13 cents a litre 20 years ago, costs 90 cents a litre today. The hon member for South Coast said that over the past few years there had been an increase of up to 300% in the prices of certain consumer goods which old people need. We agree with him, but why is there inflation? Why were other countries, for example England, able to curb inflation? How were they able to reduce two-figure inflation to single-figure inflation? Why cannot we do the same?

My answer is that the Government cannot meet its obligations and cannot curb inflation because of a certain laxity and often an ineptness in dealing with matters. [Interjections.]

I also want to say a few words about assaults on the aged who live alone and in isolation. Six months ago there was a slight decrease, but recently there have frequently been radio reports of old people being assaulted in out-of-the-way places. I think it was stated that in the past few months there have been more than 200 such assaults. We are aware of the fact that a former secretary to Parliament also lost his life in this way a few days ago.

I therefore want to ask the hon the Minister—I think he has already mentioned this, but I want to impress it upon him again—to grant subsidies for possible security measures to the private residences of our aged. I know that security measures, for example TV cameras and high-security gates and doors have been introduced in certain homes for the aged. Those aged have much greater peace of mind, knowing that their welfare is being looked after.

At present there is another great need as far as they are concerned. According to certain official statistics, there are 16 000 senior citizens who do not have any accommodation and who are in dire need of it. The hon the Minister mentioned a figure of more than 19 000. I myself wonder whether it is not perhaps 30 000 or 35 000, because many people say: “There isn’t any room for me in an old-age home, so why should I say I need to live there?” Others refrain from doing so out of a sense of pride; they have been independent for years and now suddenly have to be dependent on others.

Accommodation within the community is of great value. A wonderful home for the aged, which affords accommodation within the community and where our senior citizens can still live independently and retain their privacy, has been built in Witbank. It means a great deal to these people, and one notes that there is still a joyfulness and sense of vitality about them, even in the closing years of their lives.

The hon member for Parys said that the CP did not care one iota for our aged and that we did not have a soft spot in our hearts for them. Let me tell the hon member for Parys that I do not know of anyone who does more for the aged than the hon member for Middelburg’s wife. For 20 years now she has been devoting 20 hours per week to the homes for the aged in Middelburg, without asking for a cent in return. This is truly remarkable.

Was she already a CP at that stage?

Yes, at heart she has always been a CP; she was never a joiner.

I also want to ask the hon the Minister, if this can be done, to devise some plan to allow old people to retain as much of their independence as possible. Although quite a few hon members have already said something about retirement villages, I do want to re-emphasise the point. I want to ask the hon the Minister to give special attention to this fine project they have tackled for the development of retirement villages. We on this side of the House want to assure him that we support him in that project, and I hope he and his officials do a fine job for us so that when we perhaps reach retirement age one day, we can look forward to retiring to such a village.

There are, however, a few problems which require our attention and which I should like to present to the hon the Minister for his consideration. In the Department of Local Government, Housing and Works’ circular No 1 of 1983 the following is stated, and I quote:

Circular No 15 of 1984 reads as follows:

And various bodies have enthusiastically been accumulating funds. The aged have put their savings into funds in the expectation of being able to obtain a little place of their own more quickly. Thus millions of rands have been collected by certain bodies, but alas, then a letter was received from the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Works on 12 February of this year. The conclusion we are forced to draw from that is that the partial financing of a project from private sources is, in fact, a valid criterion, but that it cannot serve as the only or prevailing criterion. Some of those bodies were under the impression that if they collected their share of the funds, the remaining funds would be voted by the Minister. They are disappointed and have asked whether the hon the Minister would not re-examine this issue in an effort to help them.

I also want to ask the hon the Minister to look into the situation at Huis Fynbos at Kleinmond. It was initially a home for healthy aged, but then the State changed it into what it is now, a home for the infirm aged. Can something not be done to have a home for the aged who are perhaps indigent or for aged couples, one of whom is ill and needs permanent care?

I also want to speak about pensions, because all of us will be retiring one day. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, may I just tell the hon member for Witbank that it is not always solely the task of the Government to care for the aged? In my constituency the NG Kerk, the Gereformeerde Kerk and the Methodist Church have built homes for the aged, each equipped with a sick-bay, for the aged who can still look after themselves. The community itself did all the work involved.

The Gereformeerde Kerk’s home for the aged is nearing completion, and the whole congregation is very happy with the accommodation for the old people there. The one home for the aged has 200 residents and the other has 400, and they are very well looked after. So one must not always sit waiting for the Government to do this kind of work. They obtained those loans from the Government and the aged are being well cared for in that constituency.

I should now like to turn my attention to the hon the Minister and refer to the Council for the Co-ordination of Local Government Affairs, and not only this hon Minister, but also the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and his deputies. I want to congratulate them on this decision they have taken to have all these local government elections for all groups in our country, ie the Whites, the Coloureds, the Asians and the Blacks, take place at the same time.

The co-ordinating council also had the wisdom to decide, or to recommend—I do not yet know whether that is going to happen—that those elections take place in a period of two days. It is a very interesting decision, and we would very much like to see what the results are going to be if this decision is implemented, and what effect this is going to have on the percentage polls in these elections.

We also want to appeal to our voters, ie all those voters in those areas who are affected, to cast their votes. Not only do voters cast their votes, but they also give the councillors they elect a mandate to implement, a mandate for determining the future of their wards and the future of his cities or towns.

These councillors who are going to be elected in this new dispensation, in terms of which powers are increasingly being transferred to the third tier of government, are important people. From the day on which they are elected, they act on behalf of their voters, and they are also going to implement the mandate they receive from those voters. They determine the future of their area, as I have just said. They are going to serve on regional services councils in which there is going to be an exchange of knowledge and expertise. These councillors will be in close touch with their voters—in much closer touch, for example, than we are with the voters—and they are also the ones who will have to give expression to community values at the local level.

So I also want to appeal to these aspirant candidates, to these parties who are going to participate—because parties are going to participate—to begin preparing themselves even now for the elections in 1988. They should identify themselves with the values of the community and formulate those values in such a way that they acceptably and comprehensibly reflect the wishes of the voters.

The voters must also see to it that these members whom they elect are people of integrity, people on whom one can rely.

Let us have a look at all the areas for which representatives have to be elected. In the case of the Whites there are 486 areas—this includes all those organisations at local government level, for example town councils and city councils. The Coloureds have one area, but they also have all those areas where there are still management committees. The Indians have four areas plus the management committee areas. The Blacks have 242 areas. When we look at the number of councillors to be elected, we see that there is a total of 15 000. So it is a tremendous number of people who will be participating in this election, excluding the parties which are going to participate. We can estimate that there will be 30 000 people in the field, from whose ranks these councillors are going to be chosen. This will involve a tremendous amount of organisation, and we want to wish the hon the Minister and all his officials who have to initiate or introduce this process everything of the best. It is a formidable task that these people are going to face next year in making preparations for these elections.

I now want to speak about the costs involved in arranging these elections. If we look at the amount budgeted for 6 May 1987, we see that it was R6,7 million. In 1981 R2 million was spent on the election. Apart from the money spent by the Government on the election, in each constituency each party also spends large amounts of money in fighting the election. Unfortunately I cannot reveal what the parties spent on this, but to take Koedoespoort as an example, for the NP alone it cost more than R20 000 to fight the election there. That amount did not even allow us to do everything we wanted to do. There are also five city council wards in that constituency, and we shall now have to spend more money on this election.

I now come to my request to the hon the Minister. This expenditure will actually be duplicated in 1988, as far as the parties, the Government and the city councils are concerned, because with this election the Government will not, of course, be spending as much money as in the recent election. The city councils, town councils, and so on will bear their own costs as far as this election is concerned. These amounts, however, oblige me to ask, since we are going to have all the city council elections on the same day, whether we cannot also have the city council elections, the local government elections and also the general election on the same day. We could perhaps have them on the same two days, as is to be done. We could then decrease the expenditure by half. Then we ought to have much greater interest, on the part of the voters, in the local government election, because then they would be voting in the general election as well. This ought to give our councillors a stronger mandate. I know this is not a matter dealt with by the hon the Minister who is in the House now, but he has more of a say with the other hon Ministers than I have, and that is why I am asking him to convey my request to them. I would be very glad if it could receive attention.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Koedoespoort will forgive me if I do not pursue the subject that he dealt with but rather join the numbers of other hon members including the hon members for Cape Town Gardens, Parys, East London City and Witbank who dealt with the question of housing for the aged this evening.

I want to deal briefly with two aspects. The one is the importance, I feel, of integrating such housing with frail care facilities and security systems. I think we have to accept today that specialist housing is no longer just a question of bricks and mortar but that a great deal more is involved. I am aware of the numbers of enquiries that are being undertaken but I think the fact that so many enquiries are being undertaken as well as the fact that so many speakers tonight dealt with the question of frail care facilities and security in the provision of housing for the elderly is an indication of how important this is and what great concern it causes among all the communities that we represent in this House. One particular enquiry, viz that of the Committee for Social Affairs of the President’s Council has not, as far as I am aware, been mentioned. That committee is also investigating the question of housing for the aged as part of its total look at the elderly and the aged in our society. I am sure this will be a most valuable piece of research.

An in-depth inquiry.

Yes, it will be an important and an in-depth inquiry.

I am also aware—this is of concern to me in my constituency—that the Department of National Health and Population Development is conducting a comprehensive investigation into the possible appropriation of unused hospital wards in White hospitals for the provision of facilities for the frail aged.

The fact that facilities for the aged are being placed under the spotlight at the present time is, as I have said, most appropriate and the findings of all these inquiries are eagerly awaited.

I also have statistics—we have all produced statistics—to show that our population is rapidly growing older. One statistic I have not heard mentioned here this evening is that the population of over 75 years of age is increasing at more than 2 times the rate of the general population, which simply means that we are going to have more people who are frailer around for longer. I think this underwrites the necessity for more extensive frail-aged facilities.

I think that it is a source of pride to a developed community that it gives recognition and proper care to its elderly folk, the senior citizens, who have put a lifetime of effort into building up facilities and standards that the community enjoys today. However, I think we have to accept as the hon the Minister said here this evening that the cake is only so big and the demands on it are enormous.

The aged should therefore remain in their communities for as long as possible and I understand that most of these forthcoming reports will emphasise the need for communities to remain self-sufficient as far as possible and to contribute towards and participate in providing housing facilities for the aged as far as possible. This means both the private sector and, I would like to stress, local government bodies. I think the role of local government is extremely important particularly because it is on the spot and can take the lead in planning. Where we have limited financial resources I think it makes good planning doubly important. Planning should take account of the new realities of South Africa, one of which is the fact that medical advances have led to our population growing increasingly older and the other is the increased crime rate that other hon members have referred to this evening.

This obliges us to take a new look at housing on an integrated basis. The private sector has clearly realised this in the sense that they are trying to provide housing for the aged on a profit basis. The advertisement in last week’s Sunday Times for what they call the Libertas Retirement Centre, financed by Bankorp, is a typical one. What they highlight in these advertisements are the two aspects the elderly really care about. They say here:

What I would like to do this evening is to highlight a problem that is encountered by the local authorities. The Johannesburg City Council has been particularly active and successful in providing housing for the aged. In the past three years alone it has provided 1 037 single housing units and 346 double housing units for the elderly. In Johannesburg, typically, there is a tremendous demand for facilities for the care of the frail aged. Of the 34 State-subsidised old-age homes in the Johannesburg area which do have facilities for the care of the frail aged, only 11 maintain waiting lists. These show a waiting list of over 600 people for these facilities. However, in many old-age homes in the area, there are no facilities for the care of the frail aged, and this leads to tremendous insecurity and great personal misery and hardship.

In the years during which I served on the Housing and Utilities Committee, we received evidence of old couples who were summarily split up when one of the couple became too frail to stay in the cottage at the old-age home where they had to look after themselves. The frail one is sent off to an hospital, probably in another part of the town; is uprooted from the community in which I feel it is so important for old people to stay; and is cut off from loved ones. However, if the home in this instance had had a facility, the frail one could have been cared for within the home’s precinct.

It is also a fact that if the frail aged are admitted to a hospital they are often sent home before they are well enough to care for themselves, because the hospital is not properly geared to, or equipped for these old people.

These old people live in fear of being uprooted from their environment and they are very often afraid that it will be discovered that they are no longer able to care for themselves and therefore they go through life struggling away to remain independent although they really have no business doing so.

Lately, many of the applications from church groups and most of the ones from the private sector that have been processed by the council have actually included frail aged care complexes. Accordingly, when the Johannesburg City Council planned to build an old-age home as one of its centenary projects last year, a frail aged care centre was in fact included. However, the council struck a hitch.

It would appear that the City Council of Johannesburg, and I gather other city councils as well, in terms of the enabling legislation that applies and also as a matter of policy of the various departments involved, is not allowed to provide the services necessary to operate a frail aged care centre. It seems that in terms of the National Welfare Act only welfare organisations get a subsidy. Apparently there was a commission of inquiry—I think it was called the Du Plessis Commission—in the 1950s which after inquiry decided that local authorities should not have the power to provide frail care facilities.

I would like to suggest that this inability of local government bodies to operate frail care centres is something that should possibly be reinvestigated, because the elderly people should stay in the community.

The local authority is part of the community. Where that local authority has the power and the proven record of providing housing and can provide housing, although it gets a subsidy and money is short, I do think that one should have another look at enabling the local authority to provide these frail aged care services.

The problem of the council’s inability to provide the frail aged care services arose in my constituency in another context. In a considerable number of the housing complexes in my constituency, including the council flats, a number of which are occupied by old people because the flats are cheap, there were no frail aged care facilities. At the same time there is a hospital serving the area with a large number of vacant wards, and both the hospital board and the city council would like to use these vacant wards, for frail aged care centres serving the housing complexes and the homes and flats for the elderly in the area, so that they will remain part of the community. Once again, however, the council was barred from doing so. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, allow me to congratulate the hon member for Rosettenville on a very well-prepared appeal on behalf of the senior citizens, and allow me also to echo the sentiments expressed by her in her appeal.

I would like to congratulate the hon the Minister of the leftwing radical NP … [Interjections.] … on a comprehensive and informative report as presented.

Thank heavens we got rid of you! [Interjections.]

Particularly the section on housing, the subject which I intend to address, is deserving of specific mention for its clarity and for the content of that section of the report. I also want to associate myself with the remarks of the hon the Minister and other hon members regarding the promotion of Mr Reynecke. This is a well-merited promotion of an official who was already making his mark on local government affairs ten years ago when I was a member of the Transvaal Provincial Council. He was already then a senior official under the leadership of a predecessor of his, the then Director of Local Government, Mr Eric Uys, himself an extremely likable and efficient official.

My good wishes too to his officials for their good work.

I also wish to associate myself with the statements made by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens—who I see is not in the House at the moment—regarding the serious plight of our senior citizens, particularly in respect of a shortage of suitable accommodation. I would go so far as to say that the hon the Minister should regard this matter as one of the highest priority in the context not only of his department but also the overall context of government in South Africa.

*A large percentage of the Krugersdorp constituents are senior citizens, and they are all finding that their position is deteriorating month by month.

I am aware of the urgent attention that this matter is receiving via the ad hoc committee on housing for retired persons. As a result of various increases, the flat accommodation of senior citizens is becoming so expensive that they can no longer afford it. The basic levies on water, electricity, sewerage, etc, as well as flat rentals are being increased to such an extent that pensioners in particular are finding it impossible to make ends meet.

I request the hon the Minister to approach the hon the Deputy Minister of Development Planning in this connection. The refusal of the hon the Deputy Minister—who is not in the House either; in fact, one is surprised to see that there is only one hon Minister present in the House …

Disgraceful!

To take action in areas such as Hillbrow, Mayfair and the other large affected areas is greatly aggravating the crisis situation in which senior citizens find themselves. Even the hon the Minister of Law and Order, who recently visited Hillbrow, was shocked at what he found there.

You are a regular visitor to Hillbrow, aren’t you? [Interjections.]

Perhaps it is about time those ignorant hon members there also made themselves familiar with Hillbrow. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Hillbrow has made enough remarks about Hillbrow now.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

We in the CP have long since requested action on behalf of the people of Hillbrow, but to no avail. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister only saw Hillbrow from the point of view of the crime and disorder in that area. I wonder whether the hon the Minister realised that the crime situation existing in Hillbrow really aggravates the position of the needy senior citizen who is in the unfortunate position of having to remain a resident of that illegally integrated area for economic reasons. It is an area of which more than 50% of the population were originally senior citizens, people who settled in Hillbrow so that they could be near to what was then a White hospital, subsequently handed over to non-Whites by the leftwing radical NP Government … [Interjections.] … and so that they could be close to shops, entertainment facilities, parks and a regular bus service. All these facilities allow senior citizens to retain to a large degree the feeling of independence so essential to their general well-being.

What does the radical leftwing NP do in this connection? In spite of the words of concern expressed by hon leftwing radicals on that side of the House regarding the serious plight of our senior citizens they allow a situation to develop which has resulted in the largest forced removal of Whites, the majority of them senior citizens, ever to occur in the history of our country.

Those people were forced to move, to their economic as well as psychological detriment.

What a disgrace!

The inaction of the leftwing radical NP in this regard has seriously aggravated the shortage of suitable accommodation for senior citizens throughout South Africa, and I appeal to the hon the Minister urgently to approach the hon the Deputy Minister of Development Planning to effect positive action in this regard.

I would also like to refer here to the basic home pilot scheme. I had, during the almost 10 years during which I served …

Order! I want to point out to the hon member for Claremont that when I call for order, it means that hon members must be quiet. The hon member Comdt Derby-Lewis may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I wanted to say something about the basic home pilot scheme, but let me be the first to tell this House the good news that the Official Opposition in this House has won the Ermelo municipal by-election. [Interjections.]

As I was saying regarding the basic home pilot scheme, I had, during the almost 10 years during which I served on the board of a leading South African building society, the privilege of being directly involved with the approval of the concept of basic home pilot projects. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are conversing far too loudly again; I am definitely not going to allow it. [Interjections.] Order! Some hon members are still commenting on my ruling.

Hillbrow.

Order! The hon member Comdt Derby-Lewis may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I was saying that I was directly involved with the approval of the concept of basic home pilot projects at a leading building society, and I must congratulate the hon the Minister and, through him, the officials of his department upon their initiative in this regard.

I have a problem, however, with the costs involved, as indicated by the prices of units reflected in the department’s report which we received recently. In my maiden speech before the Transvaal Provincial Council in 1978 I appealed for a lowering of what I believed to be the excessively high building standards laid down for the construction of homes and outbuildings in South Africa. I appealed for greater use of industrialised building systems in particular. I know that there is presently little difference in cost between the erection of standard homes and prefabricated or industrialised homes. However, my experience of the suppliers of these systems … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, in these dying moments of this sitting, I do not really think this is the most exciting time to be speaking, but I shall do my best. [Interjections.] The hon member, who has just spoken, will pardon me for not reacting in detail to what he has said. I do just want to ask him one thing, however, and that is what the Allied did with his house. [Interjections.]

In this debate today I listened attentively to all the hon members who made a contribution, and I am impressed by the diverse aspects of local government which they dealt with. What always strikes me about PFP members is their obsession with the Black population in our country. I wonder whether they do not have voters in their own areas who would like them to look after their interests too.

We do, yes.

Sir, our CP opposition, across the floor of the House, is so concerned about the regional services councils that one is really led to wonder why. In the case of people who have less than they have, one wonders whether they begrudge them even that. [Interjections.]

In my view local government is one of the most important forms of government in our country today. [Interjections.] That is where those who govern have direct contact with their voters. That is where everyday problems are addressed and where the needs of the public are given specific attention. It is very important for these authorities to be efficient, because here it is the health and quality of life of our people that are at stake. In local authorities individuals have a direct say in decisions affecting their interests, and because there is now a greater devolution of power to the third tier of government, it is increasingly important for us to have people of quality serving in these authorities.

The adage that voters get the politicians they deserve is only too true. The apathetic attitude that still prevails when it comes to municipal elections is something to which positive attention should be given. So today I should like to pay tribute to all the officials in local government throughout the country. They are exceptional people, because they offer a service to their fellow man.

This evening I am going to speak about an entirely different aspect of the local government set-up. It is a fact that the modern man in the street does not care very much about what happens to the vast amounts of waste products generated in our local authority areas. When he puts his refuse into a black bag and places the bag outside his door, he does not care where it goes to or what becomes of it. The truth of the matter is that present-day dumping sites are becoming increasingly important and are becoming increasingly more expensive and hard to find. The transport involved in the removal of refuse is also becoming increasingly expensive.

We are rapidly nearing the end of the century; there are just over 12 years left before we come to the year 2000. In South Africa today the urbanisation factor is 45%. By the year 2000 it is going to be 75%. We have already entered a period of rapid urbanisation, and major challenges are going to face the various local authorities in our country.

We like to boast of being a democratic country. We are continually increasing our efforts to be more democratic. Increasing demands are made on those governing this country of ours to provide more and better services, without the general public being prepared to pay more in taxes. As it is local authorities are heavily burdened by a lack of funds, and with each year’s Budget they have to juggle things around in an effort to furnish quality services with limited funds.

Let us have a brief look this evening at what solid waste actually entails. This year 15 700 000 tons of refuse has been removed in the local authority areas in our country. Of that, 75% was urban refuse—representing as it does 11,8 million tons. Of this amount, 24% was industrial waste, 1% of this comprising dangerous substances, which are also starting to create major problems here in this beautiful country of ours. This represents a figure of 150 000 tons.

The overall cost involved in the removal of this bulk waste was R300 million. This evening we are talking big money, and I really think it is mind-boggling. Of this amount, R75 million is used solely for cleaning up our streets and public roads.

So when it comes to their dumping sites, local authorities should give specific consideration to the question of reclamation. In the area in which I served for quite a number of years, we earned approximately R48 000 per year from the reclamation of waste at our dumping site.

Hear, hear!

By the year 2000 there are going to be 47 million people here in our country, and it is estimated that each person generates one kilogram of waste per day. So by the year 2000 we will be burdened with a 17 to 20 million ton mountain of refuse. If we estimate that at least 20 million of the people will be Black people who are not in a position to pay the high tariffs for the removal of their refuse, we realise that this has to be a low-cost service—without a drop in the quality of the service.

The CSIR has conducted investigations and has found that here in South Africa, up to the year 2015, the dumping of refuse at dumping sites will be the proper method to employ. After that alternative methods will have to be found. Incineration is already being used in overseas countries, but unfortunately that causes air pollution problems, particularly if these materials are incinerated at temperatures lower than 1000 degrees. When it comes to temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees, such problems do not exist, but the cost of the process is doubled. We know that one always looks for the cheapest way of solving such a problem.

When dumping sites are deep, as in the USA, methane gas can easily be generated. And that, of course, is a very important source of energy. If I think about the municipalities of Cape Town, Bellville and Parow, which for years now have been manufacturing compost from their refuse, I think we shall also have to consider that in years to come, even though it is not a paying proposition at the present time.

I think that refuse removal is a personal service, and our local authorities must continue to furnish that service. When the regional services councils come into the picture, they will have to ensure that transfer stations are created and that plans for dumping sites are made. The planning and location of those dumping sites are of the utmost importance, because they must be as close as possible to our cities. We are burdened with a gigantic amount of building rubble, and those areas must become our future open spaces, our recreational areas, the “green lungs” for our increasing urban population. In other words, they must fit into this urban development programme. I feel that the sooner we know what course we are adopting as far as these regional services councils are concerned, particularly in this respect, the better it will be, because there is still some confusion about whether regional services councils are really going to fit into this refuse removal service that has to be adapted and yet has to be furnished. Perhaps it is not applicable to this discussion at the moment, but I just want to mention that there are 9 000 tons of the dangerous substances I mentioned a moment ago—organic PCB substances and DDT—at present being stored and not destroyed. I just want to say that the potency of those substances never diminishes and what we have here is a time bomb, a problem that definitely needs attention.

The truth of the matter is that great challenges and hard work lie ahead for us in the sphere of local government. Mr Tom de Bruyn, head of the solid waste division here in Cape Town, made a very true statement which I should like to quote:

[Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, just one more thing. [Interjections.] I just want to conclude by quoting what Theodore Roosevelt said:

[Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is a great pleasure for me to follow the hon member for Edenvale. I should like to thank the hon Chief Whip for considering me to be a fit person to thank her. [Interjections.]

Bearing in mind that I have only spoken once before and have already been silenced once because I spoke for too long, in the very short time at my disposal, I want … [Interjections.]

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No 19.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.