I wish to refer to Notice of Question No. XXII on the Order Paper for to-day in the name of the hon. member for East London (North). In framing notices of question certain rules followed in practice must be observed. The purpose of a question should be to obtain, and not to supply, information. The question should not be of excessive length and should not contain statements not strictly necessary to make the question intelligible, nor should it contain arguments, inferences, imputations or matter designed merely to give annoyance, nor can the expression of an opinion be sought for by a question. The Order Paper is published by authority of the House, and the Clerk of the House, under Mr. Speaker’s authority, may correct any notice of question or of motion infringing the rules or otherwise irregular. Now, the hon. member for East London (North) yesterday handed in a notice of question to be put to the Hon. the Prime Minister to-day in connection with General Manie Maritz and his release. In that notice a certain question put in this House on the 2nd April, 1918, together with the reply thereto, was given word for word, as also certain evidence given by the Hon. the Prime Minister before a Select Committee in 1915. It seems to me to be unnecessary to burden the records with a repetition of this question and reply and evidence. To my mind the whole purport of the notice of question as drafted was not so much to obtain, as to supply, information, and the hon. member appears to have been seeking to put into the question what might properly be included in a speech. As the hon. member had left these buildings when the notice was being dealt with by the Clerk of the House, and as therefore his attention could not be drawn to the matter, in the circumstances I authorised the Clerk to publish the question in an amended form as appearing on the Order Paper for to-day. If the hon. member wishes to do so, he can withdraw his question and put it at some future date in an amended form in conformity with the rules and practice of this House.

You have given a decision to which I must agree, but—

Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot allow any discussion on the matter I have given my ruling.

I am not disputing your ruling for a moment. I submit that because hon. members have only heard your decision—

Sit down, sit down, order.

Hon. members cannot call into question or discuss a ruling given from the chair.

I submit that because hon. members have only heard your decision they do not understand your ruling. As your ruling has embodied certain comments, allow me to read the question to the House in its original form.

I cannot allow the hon. member to go any further into the question.

Order, order—sit down.

I have to bow to your decision. Of course, there will be other opportunities of fully discussing this question.

The hon. member will have several opportunities at which he can bring up the whole matter, but this is not the right way.

I move, as an unopposed motion—

1. (1) Nineteenth Report of the Natal Museum for the financial year 1st April, 1923, to 31st March, 1924;
2. (2) Special Report to Parliament by the Controller and Auditor-General under section forty of the Exchequer and Audit Act;
3. (3) Return prepared in terms of section twenty-six of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1911, showing particulars of Special Warrants issued by His Excellency the Governor-General during the period 26th February, 1924, to 24th July, 1924;

Mr. VERMOOTEN seconded.

Agreed to.

moved, as an unopposed motion—

1. (1) Finance Accounts, Appropriation Accounts, Loan Funds and Miscellaneous Funds (exclusive of Railways and Harbours) for the financial year 1922-’23, with the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General. [U.G. 38—’23.]
2. (2) Return of staff of the Land and Agricultural Bank of South Africa as at 31st December, 1923, rendered in terms of section six, sub-section (1) of Act No. 18 of 1912.
3. (3) Statements of the following accounts audited by the controller and Auditor-General under the provisions of section sixty of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1911, together with the Controller and Auditor-General’s Report thereon:
   South African Museum, for 1922. Transvaal Museum, for the year ended 31st March, 1923.
   Natal Museum, for the year ended 31st March, 1923.
   State Library, Pretoria, for 1922. National Zoological Gardens of South Africa for 1922, and
   Michaelis Art Gallery, for the year ended 31st March, 1923.
4. (4) Return prepared in terms of section twenty-six, sub-section (3), of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1911, showing particulars of special warrants issued by His Royal Highness the Governor-General during the period 19th June, 1923, to 24th January, 1924.
5. (5) Return showing the position in regard to the printing of annual reports of Departments.
6. (6) Finance Accounts, Appropriation Accounts and other financial statements of the Province of Transvaal for the financial year 1922-’23, with the Report of the Auditor of Accounts. [T.P. 6—’23.]
7. (7) Report of the Provincial Auditor on the Accounts of the Orange Free State Province for the year ending 31st March, 1923. (Printed.)
8. (8) Thirteenth Report of the Public Debt Commissioners, with Appendices, for the financial year ended 31st March, 1923. [U.G. 34—’23.]
9. (9) Finance Accounts (including Trust and Village Water Supply Accounts), Teachers’ Pension Fund Accounts and Appropriation Accounts of the Province of Natal for the period 1st April, 1922, to 31st March, 1923, with the Provincial Auditor’s Report thereon. [N.P. 3—’23.]
10. (10) Schedule of Advances made to lessees of Crown Lands during the year 1923 under the Land Settlement Act, 1912, as amended.
11. (11) Reports of land purchased under sections ten and eleven of the Land Settlement Act, 1912, as amended during 1923.
12. (12) Schedules of Pensions (excluding pensions payable by the Railways and Harbours Administration), Awards during the period from 1st October, 1922, to 30th September, 1923, and cessations during the same period. [U.G. 48—’23.]
13. (13) Return prepared in terms of section twenty-six of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1911, showing particulars of special warrants issued by His Excellency the Governor-General during the period 25th January, 1924, to 25th February, 1924.
14. (14) Reports of the Trustees of the South African Art Gallery and the South African Fine Arts Association for the year ending the 31st December, 1923. (Printed.)
15. (15) Balance Sheet of the South African Fine Arts Association for the year ending 31st December, 1923.
16. (16) Report of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue for the year 1922.’23.
17. (17) Report of the Board of Trustees of the South African Public Library, Cape Town, for 1923. (Printed.)
18. (18) Comparative classified summary of ordinary expenditure from revenue, excluding Railways and Harbours, for the period 1913-’14 to 1922-’23, and the appropriation for 1923-’24. (Printed.)
19. (19) Schedule of Governor-General’s and Administrator’s special warrants for expenditure during 1923-’24 under paragraph 13 of the Financial Regulations promulgated in terms of section 3 of the Exchequer and Audit Proclamation, 1921 (South-West Africa Territory).
20. (20) Report of the Land and Agricultural Bank of South Africa for the year ended 31st December, 1923. [U.G. 17—’24.]
21. (21) Statement of assets and liabilities of the Land and Agricultural Bank as at the 31st December, 1923.
22. (22) Profit and loss account of the Land and Agricultural Bank as at the 31st December, 1923.
23. (23) Return of interest and instalments due to the Land and Agricultural Bank on the 31st December, 1922, and outstanding on the 31st December, 1923.
24. (24) Report of the Select Committee on Public Accounts. [S.C. 2—’24.]

Mr. VERMOOTEN seconded.

Mr. SPEAKER stated that the documents were upon the Table.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved—

Mr. C. A. VAN NIEKERK seconded.

Agreed to.

I move—

As hon. members will be aware, this is a Bill of very considerable public importance, although it is brought forward as a private measure. The object is to ensure that the very important profession of accountancy shall be carried on under the best conditions and guarantees; this is of the highest importance, particularly to the business people of the country. Last session the Bill was sent to a Select Committee, the personnel of which commands the utmost confidence from this House for the ability and knowledge of the subject possessed by the members of that Select Committee. They unanimously found the preamble of the Bill proved. They went through the measure very carefully. Many objections had been raised and many difficulties had occurred, but as a result of discussions and long deliberations by the Committee certain compromises were arrived at and concessions made, the result being the practical disappearance of most of the difficulties. A Bill of this sort is not only of the utmost importance to the community, but it causes very great expense indeed to the people who bring it forward, and on this Bill there has been a considerable expenditure of money by the various societies which, in the most public-spirited way, have brought this measure forward. Unless the motion is adopted the Bill stands a chance of being dropped altogether, and the result will be that these public-spirited promoters will probably find it necessary to introduce the Bill all over again, provided they can afford to do so. That seems a wholly unnecessary course to have to take and, fortunately, there is provision in our Standing Rules under which a Bill can be resumed in the following session. In April before the House was prorogued leave was given to suspend the Bill with a view to leave being obtained to resume the proceedings this session. Hon. members will be glad if opportunity be afforded to bring the Bill forward this session, so that the House can decide on the principle, and I have no doubt of the result. The Select Committee, which took a great deal of evidence, has sent in its report, and the stage at which I propose the Bill should be resumed is the second reading.

Mr. STRUBEN seconded the motion.

By direction of Mr. SPEAKER,

The CLERK read the Orders of the House of the 12th February, 1924, giving leave to introduce the Bill and the First Reading; of the 19th and 21st February, appointing the Select Committee; of the 19th February, referring to the Committee Petitions in opposition to the Bill; of the 28th February and 27th March, granting leave to amend the Preamble; of the 1st April, reporting the Bill with amendments, and of the 8th April, giving leave for proceedings to be suspended and that the Bill may be proceeded with this session.

The motion was then put and agreed to; second reading 1st August.

I move—

I second the amendment. The line in question was sanctioned before the Anglo-Boer war, and would have been built if that regrettable war had not intervened. Under the Crown Colony Administration the line had never been built, because the Administration favoured the towns and neglected the country districts. Since union the line had been built to Bothaville but nothing more was done. It ought now to be built to Paardeberg Station. I also support the other parts of the motion.

I move, as an amendment—

The expenditure in connection with this line will be from £25,000 to £30,000. The situation and the value of the land will justify the building of the line. That part of the country is very much out of the way but it is very well suited to the growing of all kinds of produce, especially citrus. There are about 70,000 citrus trees. Nine miles of the light railway was built by a company. The Government is therefore asked to take over the existing line and to build another nine miles to it. It is of great importance that this fertile part of the country should be connected with the main line to Delagoa Bay.

I second the amendment. The production from that part of the country has been doubled during the last two or three years and therefore the line would be fully justified.

I move, as a further amendment—

The Constitution lays down that the Railways of the country should be managed on business principles, and I know, therefore, that most of the proposed lines will not be sanctioned by the Government. The line from Pietersburg to Middelburg is, however, an exception, and will be quite payable. The line will run through very fertile parts to one of the best parts of the country for the growing of grain; indeed, one of the best parts in the world for grain. There are mountains—not mines—of asbestos. Cotton can be grown there, and traffic will not be lacking. If the Minister will only visit those parts he would be convinced that it is necessary and that it will be a payable proposition for him and for his Railway Board to put this line on the next programme of construction.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I am glad to have an opportunity to speak to this motion. A line is wanted from Benoni to Bronkhorstpruit in a northern direction. That part of the country is very wealthy, there is an abundance of water, there are minerals. If this part is developed by means of a railway line, there will be room for many people. I know a man there who grows 2,000 bags of wheat. People can sow and plant right through the winter. It is certain that this line will yield a profit as far as the conveyance of agricultural products are concerned. And then there is such a wealth of minerals in that district, which awaits development. For that purpose a railway line is needed.

I second the amendment. The House has learned with great pleasure that the Government intends to build a line to Zululand. The territory through which this line will run is much larger than Zululand. The country is excellent for agricultural purposes, and there the best marble quarries are found in the Transvaal. The development of that part has been retarded by the want of a railway line. I hope that these few words of the member of Pretoria South (Gen. Muller) and of myself will move the Minister to build this line.

I move as a further amendment—

I may state with regard to the first of these lines that a survey has already been made—in fact it was made in the old Cape days. Why construction was not proceeded with, I am unable to state. A line was constructed as a branch line from Bowkers Park to Tarkastad, and I may state that it is the only branch line—or rather one of the very few branch lines—which pays its way to-day. This was probably done with the object of some day extending the line to the Midlands. With regard to Cradock itself we know that the Government has spent a million pounds in the erection of irrigation works there, and we know that the district has a huge future provided the new Government give it a fair chance. The second line, from Middelburg to some point Hutchinson, etc., will considerably shorten the distance from East London to Cape Town, and will traverse an area which in the future promises to be splendid for grain growing. I appeal to the Minister so soon as possible to send the Railway Board to inspect these areas.

Mr. MOFFAT seconded.

I move as a further amendment—

The line which I want is not one which is still to be built. It is a line which is already in existence for years and that has proved to be a payable one. The question was brought up repeatedly in this House and I hope that the Minister will take compassion on the people who ask that the Government should take over the New Cape Central Railway. It is not only a few people who ask this, because the voters’ rolls show that I am speaking on behalf of 16,000 voters. The existing line, the N.C.C.R., is ruining the farmers. Beautiful apples are grown there, oranges are wasting, and it is useless to produce anything because the railway prohibit them from reaching the markets. For instance, timber is conveyed from Knysna to Mossel Bay for £1 15s., and from Mossel Bay to Riversdale it costs £15. A ticket from Cape Town to Riversdale costs more than £4, and if it is taken out at George, 60 miles further, it costs less. Ministers have repeatedly promised that the matter would be tackled, but nothing more was done. It was nothing but reasonable to expect that the Minister would now concede to the request for taking over this line, which is now a payable one, and if the State takes it over it will pay still better.

I second the amendment. Recent repeated reductions have been made for the conveyance of products for a distance of over 300 miles. The people of George and Knysna have not, however, profited by those reductions because over the N.C.C.R. line they are less than 300 miles from Cape Town, but the high tariffs on that line take away all the profits.

I have very great pleasure in supporting my hon. friends. I believe this question has been discussed on many occasions by the former member for Swellendam (Mr. Van Eeden), when it had the very sympathetic hearing of this House. I must say that I am very satisfied with the reply from the Minister of Railways and Harbours. The New Cape Central Railway is a railway which should be taken over by the Government, and, personally, I think the time is now ripe when there should be no privately-owned railways in the country. The New Cape Central Railway is undoubtedly one that goes through a most fruitful part of the Union. Farmers in the Robertson and Swellendam districts are doing their utmost to produce, but are seriously handicapped by excessive rates. As a business man who knows the district well, I may state that in some instances we pay three or four hundred per cent. in excess of what the Government charge. For instance, you can send a bag of wheat to Natal for about 2s. 9d., while for a bag of wheat from Swellendam to Worcester we have got to pay 1s. 6d. per bag. I could give many such instances. Even in regard to railway fares: from Swellendam to Cape Town the fare is £4, whereas you can travel from Protem to Cape Town for about 15s. 6d. In moving my amendment—

I may say that this is also a line which the Government should take in hand. The name itself is an indication that it was the intention of the Government to take it up because we have the words “Pro, tem,” which, I believe, stand for “for the time being.” The time has arrived when I think the Government should seriously consider when they bring in their Bill an extension of the line from Protem to Swellendam. It is only a matter of 27 miles, and I believe it will not cost probably more than £100,000. The country itself is practically level, and it undoubtedly is one of the best for grain production. I can testify that in the immediate vicinity, whereas in former years a matter of 500 bags of oats or grain was produced, to-day the same farmer is producing 6,000 to 7,000 bags. I maintain that that line would serve a portion of the country where it is very desirable to have a railway. I believe the Minister is very sympathetic towards Swellendam and Caledon, and I hope that when the time arrives he will not overlook us.

Dr. DE JAGER seconded the amendment.

I move as a further amendment—

I have much pleasure in moving this amendment, which concerns a line that has had the attention of the Government for years, as is testified by the visit of the Railway Board, the Minister, and the surveying of the line. The line would connect two of the most important agricultural districts in the Union, two districts of almost unlimited agricultural possibilities. It will run along the Doring River and then through the valley of Villiersdorp, which is very well suited to agriculture and stock rearing. Many examples could be quoted of this, but it is not necessary for me to do so because it is a recognised fact. The enormous development of that part of the country during the last few years redounds to the credit of the inhabitants and is also an honour for the agricultural population of the Western Province. The growing of fruit in the Villiersdorp district has made such vast strides during the last few years, that it is felt that that part of the country cannot go on at that rate unless a line is built. The growing of fruit has to be encouraged, and it cannot be done unless a line is built. The proposed line will also open the big markets of the north to the districts of Caledon, Bredasdorp and Swellendam. I support the member for Swellendam (Mr. Buirski) in his motion for a line from Protem to Swellendam. The time has arrived to give more attention to the southwestern districts, which are free from all kinds of agricultural pests and are suitable for all branches of agricultural development.

They only want a little manure!

During the past year the Caledon District produced a million bags of grain. The sheep in the district number 220,000, and the district is very suitable for the growing of fruit and vegetables. I do not want to say anything against the needs of other districts, but I do want to say, that there are few districts which have the advantages of this one. If ever a line was built in the interests of South Africa, it is the line from Sir Lowry Pass to Caledon and Bredasdorp. Caledon is one of the finest coastal belts of the country. There is a great deal of traffic from Bot River to the coast. During the first part of the year 10,000 people were conveyed by motor from Bot River.

I have great pleasure in seconding the amendment moved by the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige). To-day already you have a motor traffic between Worcester and Caledon, Caledon and Hermanus, a motor traffic which is carrying a great many passengers in competition with the railway. If the railway line which the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige) suggests were built there it would carry not only those passengers but a great many more. Not only is the area the most productive but you have the people there too, the people settled on the land. We are talking a great deal about closer settlement. There is no part more suitable for closer settlement than this area. The production would be increased in that area ten-fold if this were done.

I move (on behalf of Dr. Rood), as a further amendment—

It gives me much pleasure to move this amendment because the settlement on the Wit River is of great importance to the Low Veld of the Transvaal. More than £500,000 was spent on citrus growing and other branches of farming in a short time in those parts. Over 11,000 morgen are under irrigation and a considerable portion is under cotton, which thrives there. The oranges which are grown are intended for export, and if there is no means of conveyance citrus growing cannot be made payable in those parts.

I second the amendment.

I move (on behalf of Mr. Keyter), as a further amendment—

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

This line runs through one of the best portions of the country. A lot of mealies are grown there but at present it is not a payable business on account of the absence of a railway. This want is greatly felt, with the result that not a quarter of the mealies is grown there which might be grown.

I second the amendment—

I move, as a further amendment—

This is a part of the country which has no railway at all. The town of Sutherland is 72 miles from the nearest railway station. All the other lines are asked for parts of the country which are served to some extent. All the members say that the lines they want will pay. I hope that that is true, but my constituents are also taxpayers. My constituency consists of four fiscal divisions. Two of them, Ceres and Sutherland, have an area of over 2,000,000 morgen, and there are only five miles of railway. If this little line can be extended from Ceres to Calvinia, the public will be very glad, but they will even be satisfied if it cannot be extended quite so far.

I second the amendment.

I move—

I think this is one of the shortest lines on record. Certainly it is the shortest of all those which have been submitted here to-day. It is only four miles long. It is a very important line. As we know, brevity is the soul of wit. It is also a recommendation when building a railway. It will probably therefore recommend itself to the Minister, as he must naturally deal with these matters with some regard for the expense that is likely to be incurred. The extension I propose is a necessary extension of the present line which goes to Somerset Strand. I would put it to the Minister that he should find out the enormous amount of holiday traffic which comes down there. If he did that he would see that these additional four miles would bring in a very handsome revenue. Last session I presented a petition in connection with this matter and from the signatures it could be seen that people representing almost every village and town in South Africa came down to this place and desired this line. Without the railway there is a great deal of inconvenience. For instance, they have to bring goods from Somerset Strand to Gordon’s Bay by wagon at a cost of 6d. per 100 lbs. Passengers have to continue the journey in taxis, paying 4s. each for the return journey. Really this is almost a necessary addition to the Strand line. There is a very fine water supply from Steenbras, and there are some developments going on by which the three culverts over which the Steenbras pipeline runs are being bridged so that the pipeline track can be used as a high level road, with the result that you will soon have a very fine road opening up the whole of the face of the mountain side, and if you have the extension of the railway to Gordon’s Bay later on you would probably be able to carry the railway along the face of the mountain to serve the Steenbras reservoir and shorten the route to Hermanus and other resorts. I believe surveys of the line have been made, so the Minister will know exactly what the costs will be. I think that at one time the Cape Explosive Works considered the building of a railway along the face of the mountain. As far as one can understand, there seems to be no reason whatever against the construction of the line, except possibly that Government does not want to go in for a new railway programme at this early date. The extension to Gordon’s Bay, however, will not be expensive, as the road is level and the increased traffic to the seaside resort of Gordon’s Bay would handsomely pay the Government. One of the advantages of this place is that it has beautiful fishing. I do not know whether there are some members who have not yet enjoyed the pleasure of fishing, but if there are, I would advise them to go in for fishing, that being the best pastime for a weary politician.

I second the amendment. I forgive the member of Cape Town—Hanoverstreet (Mr. Alexander) for not consulting me, because he has brought forward the matter in such an able manner. I hope that the Minister will take the matter into serious consideration, and I assure him, if he does so and comes to Stellenbosch again, he would have a better reception there than he had last time.

I move, as a further amendment—

Several speakers have advocated their lines on the ground of more development and greater production. More development and greater production are very important, but a large population has a greater claim. In the North of the Transvaal there is room for a bigger population, as Rhodes said. In Waterberg, a district as large as one-eighth of the Transvaal, there is room for a large number of people. If we only get a railway, the population will increase. I welcome the proposed railway to Zululand, but that line does not run through such a rich territory as the one in my district. This line can be built very cheaply and the country is admirably suited to every branch of agriculture. There is a small line about 20 miles in length which is served by a Dalton tractor. That is the only line for developing the country. Under these circumstances I hope that my district will have the attention of the Minister.

second the amendment.

I move—

This motion is the same as that of the member for Pretoria South (Gen. Muller), and I hope that the double appearance of it on the agenda is a good omen for the carrying out of the motion.

The amendment Japses, because the mover has already seconded another amendment.

Am I to understand that the hon. member for Pretoria District (North) (Mr. Oost) is not moving his amendment?

The hon. member has already spoken—he has seconded an amendment.

With the permission of the hon. member, I will take his place and move his amendment. I am very pleased to see that there is quite a number of members who are-beginning to realize the importance of Benoni in the scheme of things in South Africa. I hope the new Minister of Railways, who I hope-will be an old Minister later on, will realize the necessity of looking upon Benoni with more encouraging eyes than it has been regarded in the past. I move as an amendment—

Now, my argument all along in the Houselias been that we should not go in for a scheme* of railway development based entirely on the pounds, shillings and pence point of view, and watching the ledger, as has been done by the former Minister of Railways and Harbours, but that we should look upon railways as a developing factor—something which opens up the country—and I think it is becoming more and more realized that there is wanting in what is known as the back-veld—I see my hon. friend over there calls it Bushveld—something to furnish the residents thereof an opportunity of getting their commodities to market The largest market is undoubtedly Johannesburg, and the easiest method of reaching Johannesburg from the east is via Benoni. We thank the hon. member who has conceived a railway from, Benoni to Bronkhorstspruit and thence into the Bushveld, and via Bronkhorstspruit up along the Olifants River, and it would be a tremendous developing, factor in that portion of the country and to people agriculturally inclined and industrially occupied. I understand this is a very highly mineralized district along the Olifants River and the building of a line there will redound not only to the credit but to the ultimate advantage of the whole country, and therefore I most wholeheartedly support the suggestion that this railway should be suggested to the Minister of Railways and Harbours, to Bronkhorstspruit and then up via the Olifants River to the Bushveld.

Mr. PIROW seconded.

I move, as a further amendment—

I would like to say a word for civilization in the distant North-West. Up till now the North-West was the step-child of the Government, but I hope that in this matter also there will now be a change, as the North-West needs assistance. I recommend that this line be placed on the next programme of railway construction. In those parts, north of the Vaal River, there is not much opportunity for social intercourse and the progress of the community is thereby retarded. There are great opportunities for agricultural development, but I base my claim also on other considerations. Apart from agricultural development, there are good prospects in respect of mining. There are asbestos mines, but very little has as yet been done. The asbestos mines have to be worked on a much larger scale, and there is also a lot of iron. For all this a railway is urgently needed. Near to Postmasburg there is a promising diamond mine, and a railway line is needed for further development. The rural population have no means of conveying their products to the market, for instance, to Kimberley, and consequently there is no encouragement for cultivation. Griqualand West means a great deal for stock rearing and the meat production of the country, and it should be the aim of the Government to further the interests of Griqualand rather than the adjacent districts. But more about this later. It ought to be our aim to assist civilization in those parts, and therefore I hope that this House will take the amendment into favourable consideration.

I second the amendment.

I move as a further amendment—

The line is already built to Franklin, in Natal. Now there is still an opening of 80 miles between the Gape and Natal. This link has to be supplied in order to connect the Cape system with that of Natal. A beginning can be made with the line to Matatiele. This will be the first step in effecting a connection which is so urgently required. The line will run through a very productive part of the country, which will be greatly developed by a railway connection.

Mr. STEYTLER seconded the amendment.

moved, as an amendment to this amendment—

The House has only to consider the desirability of an immediate connection between the Cape and Natal.

Mr. ROBINSON seconded the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

The railway has been built from Kimberley to Wintersrush, but it does not go any further and therefore it means very little. The line has to be extended to Kuruman, which is 160 miles from the nearest station. There are the Rooibergen, where plenty of minerals are found. If ever there was a district which needed a railway for development, it is Kuruman. In 1920 I brought in a similar motion, but unfortunately the last Government did not see the urgency of the line and nothing was done. The Minister of Railways and Harbours has now paid a visit co the district and also another Minister, and I hope that Kuruman will now get its line.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

Many lines are being asked for, but I am in the peculiar position of living in the North-West, a territory of 26,000 square miles without railways. It is 270 miles from Klaver to the Orange River, and from the Orange River to the railway in German West it is another 80. If somebody gets sick at Namies he will die before a doctor can be called in. The previous Government consistently neglected this part. Over £900,000 has been spent on the irrigation works at Klaver. In 1920 the Government lost £600,000 on imported wheat. This could have been prevented if the portion suitable for growing wheat in the North-West had been developed. A sum of £1,000,000 is sent out of the country every year for the purchase of wheat. The culture of wheat is therefore of more importance to the country than the growing of cotton.

I second the amendment. It is quite true that the whole of the North-West is one big blank on the railway map. The whole of Bushmanland is without a railway, and I therefore support the motion for building a line in this part of the country. The line can then later be extended to Gordonia. All the people will support such a line because it will enable them not only to convey their stock by train to the market, but also in times of drought, such as the present one, when they have to move their stock over great distances, when they lose hundreds of them on the road, a railway will greatly diminish their losses and prevent their impoverishment.

I move, as a further amendment—

In supporting the amendment standing in my name I shall have little to say, not because there is not a great deal that could be said, but because I take it that the object of this great offensive on the railway question is that a large omnibus resolution should be passed this afternoon. I must say, however, that the area which would be traversed by the lines proposed in my amendment is an area which is the most productive in the most productive Province of the Union and that the farms along the proposed lines of railway are held by progressive farmers whose flocks and herds and products have been rendered famous by their prize-winning throughout every show of the Union. These farmers are each one of them two-fisted one hundred per cent. men who are only waiting for a railway for the most complete development of this area. I commend the resolution to the approval of the House.

Brig.-Gen. ARNOTT seconded.

I move, as a further amendment—

Everybody knows the fertility of that part of the country, 80,000 morgen of which is under irrigation, but this is of little avail if there is no railway connection. From a business point of view, it is essential to complete the connecting link of 32 miles between Ladismith and Calitzdorp, as the line from Oudtshoorn to Calitzdorp and from Touws River to Ladismith will probably be completed next year. This will considerably shorten the distance between Cape Town and Port Elizabeth. This will also assist the Government in its attempt to solve the poor white problem. There are between 700 and 800 poor whites from every part of the country working on the line, which is now being constructed there, and these people are living in the hope that a start will be made on the new line. It will also be in the interest of the Government because it will enable it to take over the New Cape Central Railway on more favourable terms.

I second the amendment. It is no new railway which is being asked for. This line was on the programme of the Government on a previous occasion, but for certain reasons it was then decided not to proceed with the construction. The previous Minister said he could not grant the line from Calitzdorp to Ladismith because that would be unfair competition with the New Cape Central Railway in the coastal traffic. I am convinced, however, that we have no such moral or legal obligation towards the New Cape Central Railway. The railway from Touws River to Ladismith will not pay if the line is not extended to Oudtshoorn, because in the latter case the passengers will travel from Cape Town to Oudtshoorn and Port Elizabeth. This line runs through important districts. The Minister has to take this into consideration, as also the fact, that this is a necessary and almost indispensable link between the two railway systems.

I move, as a further amendment—

The line I ask for is one which will develop the Central Karroo. There are large and fruitful farms which require development. Moreover, this line will connect the Western with the Eastern railway system, which will be of great importance for the trade between the East and the West. I hope that the Minister will take it into favourable consideration.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

This matter needs no recommendation. The previous Government was so convinced of the importance of this line, that it sent the General Manager of the Railways during a certain election with my opponent to take a survey of the stations. At the last election the former Minister of the Interior even indirectly promised these lines at a meeting of my opponent. It is unnecessary, therefore, to say anything more on the matter.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I think that the line contained in my motion is one of the most urgent. The line will run through one of the greatest grain districts. This district to-day suffers a great deal from drought and locusts. Some of the people there can hardly earn a living. If the line is built now, some of these people can earn something. It is an urgent necessity. The Minister ought to take this in consideration. Besides, the line will be a payable proposition.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

A survey has already been made of this line. The line is badly required for the agricultural development of the district and it will also be a great convenience for the towns and villages in that part of the country if the line is built, which I hope will be the case, and it will also be a great incentive to the development of the coal mines. I know that the members of the new Government are acquainted with those parts. They have also held out hopes to the population that the line will be built, and I am therefore very hopeful that my amendment will be accepted by the Government and the line built.

Mr. NICHOLLS seconded the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I do not want to draw comparisons with the other parts, where lines are asked The line which I propose is, however, not only a local one, but one for a large territory of from five to six districts and a great connecting link between East and West. It is absurd that there is no connecting link between the main lines from Cape Town and Port Elizabeth except by means of a private line, the New Cape Central Railway. There is no connection for a distance of over 400 miles between Worcester and De Aar. The Western Karroo is a great wool producing country, and the great market for their product is Port Elizabeth. It is therefore important to send this by the shortest possible route. A line from Beaufort West to Aberdeen would possibly be more suitable, but the country through which that line will run is thinly populated, and the contention of the Railway Board is, that no new line should be built through a part where there is not sufficient local traffic; while in the country east of Prince Albert Road much grain, lucerne, beans and fruit are grown. I was surprised to discover how fertile that part of the country is. If the requested line is built, it will run through a fertile country where there is a possibility for great development. Then there is also the question of a connection between East and West. This is a result of the old struggle of years ago. There were interests in Cape Town that wanted to keep us apart, but the people of the Midlands want to, trade and to be connected with both. Therefore, they favour this line, which, if built, will be one of the most important in the whole of the Cape Province.

I second the amendment, and hope the House has taken due note of the very weighty arguments brought forward by the mover.

I move, as a further amendment—

My motion is slightly different, as I do not ask for the usual railway, but for the electrification of a certain line. It was not my intention, during this short session, to ask for this railway. I have seen, however, that other members apply for lines, and as the direct line between Johannesburg and the Capital of South Africa is of vital importance, and as it will have to be built some day, I have decided to ask for it now. I sympathize with the Minister, because so many new lines are being asked for. The Minister is still young, however, and I am sure he will do his utmost. It is asserted that there is already a line between Johannesburg and Pretoria, but the new line will run through such an important part that it will be quite worth the while building it, and according to other members, there will always be enough to do for the existing line. Another good purpose that this line will serve is, that it will give employment to people at present out of work. The Government daily receives a large number of applications for work. Reference has been made to the solution of the problem of unemployment, and I am sure that the carrying out of my motion will give work to a large number of unemployed on the Rand. But another question arises: why should it be an electric railway? Experience has shown that the ordinary railway between Cape Town and Simonstown could not adequately cope with the traffic. There will have to be another line, and therefore I think that it is desirable that we should proceed immediately with the construction of an electric railway between Johannesburg and Pretoria. There is a great amount of traffic and the railway will open a very fruitful portion of the country.

I second the amendment. I think the Minister of Railways and Harbours will pause and consider deeply before giving his sanction, or his blessing, to the construction of any new line. According to the last Bulletin of the General Manager of Railways, out of forty-nine lines only nine show a surplus, the remaining forty disclosing deficits. I have very great pleasure in seconding the proposal. You have here the necessary requisites for the construction of a payable line. You have by far the largest city in the Union, and the executive capital of the Union quite isolated from any other place, but in close proximity to one another. By the present line we have to make a deviation of eleven miles, and in the very short distance between Johannesburg and Pretoria, of about 35 miles, you have to make this long detour, and lose time, and pay dearly for it. The result is that there is very strong competition by way of motor traffic, and if these conditions are allowed to continue, the time will not be far distant, especially when the road is put in that condition of repair in which it should be placed, that the railway will carry comparatively little passenger traffic, because people will not only save time but money by travelling by motor. Here you have two large centres of population, and the intervening country between Johannesburg and Pretoria is of a highly productive character. The Minister has recognized the claims of the residents to the north of Johannesburg for facilities, inasmuch as he has granted them a bus service, but it has had a somewhat chequered career. A little more than a year ago, I proposed a resolution of a similar character to the one now before the House, and I then had the support of fourteen or fifteen members. The then Minister of Railways and Harbours was so impressed with the weight and strength of the case that he accepted the motion. He had investigations made and sent me a copy of the report of his experts. This report was not of a wholly encouraging character, not because any argument put by me was refuted, but because the building of an electric line would entail very heavy expense. In my opinion the expenses incurred would not be commensurate with the great advantages to be derived. I am not enamoured of the way in which my hon. friend has brought forward this motion, because he has based his whole argument on this: “That it would provide work for the unemployed.” Well, it would to a certain extent; but there is need for this railway apart from that. If the Transvaal had not gone into Union, there can be no question that this line would have been long since built, and I would urge the hon. Minister to visit the scene and the people concerned would be very glad to take him round. At Pretoria he would see to the north the richest diamond mine in the world, and in the south he would see the richest goldfields in the world; in the east by far one of the largest coal deposits in the world. Now I do not want to enlarge upon this matter, but I hope that the hon. Minister will take it very seriously into consideration, and I am satisfied that he has before him a good sound business proposition. There is no doubt that if this line is built we shall have within a short time one endless line of settlements and a contented, prosperous, happy population between Pretoria and Johannesburg.

I move, as a further amendment, to add at the end of the motion—

I do feel that in the building of railways in the country that sufficient attention has not been paid to the coastal belt of the sub-continent. I believe that the coastal belt in future is going to carry a very dense agricultural population, and the railway I am asking for to-day is essential to such development and was sanctioned in 1906. It is really an extension of the line from Alexandria to a point on the existing line from Grahamstown to Port Alfred. We do not say where it shall actually go, but I would ask the hon. Minister to bear in mind that any line which is sanctioned should go where we have the greatest present and potential production. The coastal belt from Alexandria to East London—and I speak from full knowledge—is the most productive of our Union. We have heard of the necessity of a larger population on the land and I personally have ventilated that subject, and I would say that of all parts of the country I have been through—in that section of the country lies the best chance of successfully settling men who can run small farms It has a wonderful climate and soil and excellent general conditions—a freedom from pests and locusts, and immunity from drought; so that this line is well worthy of consideration. I believe reports have been made by the Railway Board, and I have good reason to believe that the reports are favourable to the building of this line. In moving that this railway be given due consideration by the Minister, I feel that I am on very strong ground.

Maj. BALLANTINE seconded.

I move, as an amendment—

The amendment I have to move follows very naturally on that moved by the last speaker. As he has informed the House, a line was sanctioned nearly twenty years ago, and from. Barkly Bridge to the Grahamstown—Port Alfred line, and a continuation from Peddie to East London, follows as a natural course. I am only sorry that in moving this amendment I am not assisted by a large scale map because if I were, hon. members would see at once that the construction of this line would appeal to them, even from geographical considerations. It may interest hon. members to know that Fort Peddie was one of the earliest outposts of white civilization in South Africa, and it has remained an outpost. It has never been connected with the main body as it should have been. There are many reasons why this railway should be constructed. Historically, it is entitled to it. Peddie existed and its people were doing useful work when places to which lines have since been constructed were not even geographical expressions. The construction of this line would not only benefit the inhabitants, but the Union generally. It will pass through a very rich coast belt indeed, and as the last speaker pointed out, it produces things most useful not only to the Union, but important for our export trade. The area through which this line will pass was one of the great wheat producing districts in the past. We still import one million bags of wheat, and experiments are being conducted which may restore this district as a great wheat producing portion of the Union. We have that fine thriving and improving port of East London which is not as well served as it might be by its Hinterland, and before long a high level bridge will be required to carry the traffic from the west to the east bank, and this bridge might be considered with the inevitable railway from East London to Peddie. If the hon. Minister will look up the records of his Department he will find very favourable reports from the Railway Board of this district. The Board has visited the district more than once, and this shows that the members of the Railway Board did not turn down the proposition. Although the reports of the Board are confidential, it would appear that the Railway Board must have been favourably impressed with the possibilities of this district. This railway will in addition serve one of the greatest beauty spots of this country—the Keiskamma Mouth. If this line is built it will give a great impetus to the cotton production of this country. There are a great many sheltered valleys where cotton could be grown successfully to the great benefit of the producer, and it is up to us to-day to do all in our power to rescue the farmers of this country from their present hard lot, and to encourage the growing of cotton by providing reasonable means of transport. I hope that this amendment will commend itself to the House and that the line will be placed in the forefront of the programme of lines to be constructed in the immediate future.

I am impressed with the local patriotism so eloquently expressed by hon. members from several centres of the Union; but in this imperfect work of railway construction I have discovered a missing link—a missing link not in anthropology but in the Union railway system; showing lines like fishing rods. I consider the construction of this line most necessary as giving access to an exceedingly fertile region. I know most parts of the Union, but I know no part which is so entitled as this part to an extension from East London to Peddie and later on to connect with the line to Alexandria. I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

The whole population of that part of the country is in favour of connecting line as contained in my motion and there is no need for me to say much on the matter. I am sure that the Minister will immediately send out the Railway Board to investigate the line and recommend its construction.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I would like to say a few words in support of my motion. I do so almost formally, because it seems that the bringing up of motions asking for railway construction has become practically a farce. I wonder how many of these lines will be recommended by the Railway Board, if the members of the Board have listened to the speeches which were made here this afternoon. The line which is asked for in my motion is one which has become necessary from the existing line, and I bring in this motion with new hope now that there is a new Minister at the head of affairs.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

I agree with the previous speakers that, as far as railways are concerned, the North-West has been neglected. There are practically no railways, and I hope that the Government will give that part of the country the necessary railways for its development.

Rev. Mr. HATTINGH seconded the amendment.

I move (on behalf of Mr. Nel), as a further amendment—

This line was built in 1909 by a coal mining company, who had the right to fix their own tariff. The condition was that the Government would take over the line after 25 years. This line retards the progress of the district—paradoxical as it may seem—as the tariffs are 50 per cent. to 100 per cent. higher than those of the State Railways, and in spite of this the line is not worked at a profit. I also move etc., “and a line from Sandymount.” This is a short line which will assist in developing a part of the country where much wattle is grown where there are a large number of small farmers. This line, which is only an extension of an existing line, will undoubtedly be a payable proposition.

Mr. HENDERSON seconded.

I move, as a further amendment—

I am sorry for the Minister of Railways and Harbours, who has to listen to all these motions. The first line asked by me has a past. It is of international significance. The Portuguese allege that the Union has not carried out its part of the mutual agreement. The cause of this difficulty is because Swaziland is not a part of the Union. It ought to be part of the Union. The proposed line from Oogies or Kendal via Hendrina has already been investigated, and the report is in the hands of the Railway Board. The great possibilities of coal in this district are well known. Moreover, that is a flourishing part of the country for agriculture, and it deserves encouragement and assistance. The country produces a great deal, but the people do not know how to get their products away to the market. They need the assistance of a railway. The line from Ermelo to Standerton runs through a rich agricultural country. I have therefore much pleasure in moving this motion.

I second the amendment. I am sure that every member who sees this district, will agree with the motion. Not only are there large layers of coal, but the railway will open a backward part of the Union. No district can progress if there is no railway for the conveyance of its products.

I move, as a further amendment—

I will say nothing of the line from Bethal, as the member for Bethal (Lt.-Col. H. S. Grobler) has already spoken on that. The rest of the line from Middelburg has already been surveyed and the report is favourable. The soil is good, the climate excellent, and all the circumstances are favourable to cotton growing. If the district is developed, there will be room for a large number of settlers.

I second the amendment.

I move, as a further amendment—

My predecessor has already explained the importance of this line. This part of the country is one of the most important along the line. Potchefstroom is one of the finest mealiegrowing districts in the Union, and this line will run through the heart of this territory. But it is not only suited to the growing of mealies, sheep rearing and the cultivation of fruit, it is also rich in minerals.

I second the amendment.

I move—

This is a very necessary line because it not only shortens the line between the large wattlegrowing and timber areas and the Rand, but would also avoid a big drop into the valley at Maritzburg and up the hill again. It is a line that has already been reported upon, surveyed and inspected, and brought to the notice of the Government on many occasions. It is one of those lines which has already commended itself to the Government, and the more they have inspected it the more they have been convinced of its necessity, but the less they have done. It is also a line which has been anticipated for many years, and hundreds of thousands of pounds have been spent in the Muden Valley in irrigation for the development of orange growing. At present these products, which are being exported to England, have to be carried 19 miles by road up a very high gradient. I hope that the Minister will give this line his early attention. It may interest the Government to mention that a portion of my constituents who are deeply concerned in this line are very strong supporters of the Government. There is another amendment I wish to move, namely, the broadening of the narrow gauge line between Estcourt and Weenen. This is a line that is subject to all the disabilities inseparable from transhipping from the broad gauge to the narrow gauge. It has outgrown its capacity and should be soon converted from the narrow to the broad gauge.

Mr. LENNOX seconded.

I would like to move, as a further amendment—

I believe that if the railway were extended to Klipheuvel it would not only mean a greater development in that area but it would also be a source of revenue to the Government.

Mr. SWART seconded the amendment.

I welcome the discussion which has taken place, as it showed that the need for railway extension is a real and great one. It is certain that some members have exaggerated the claims of their districts, but the discussion has shown, notwithstanding, what a great need for railways there is. I am particularly pleased to have seen Mr. Jagger follow the debate throughout the afternoon. In the last three weeks the Government has received so many complaints from all sides of the bad state of affairs in the Union, and therefore it is very refreshing to hear the other side of the story and to learn that there is still prosperity in the country. I assume that much that has been said is quite true. It remains a fact, however, that there is a great need for railways, and the Administration can do a great deal to make provision for this want. I promise the House that the Railway Board will carefully consider all the representations which have been made, and I can assure members that information has already been secured by the Board in regard to many of the proposed new lines. The new lines asked for, however, without including the electrification of the Pretoria—Johannesburg line, or the taking over of the Cape Central line, will mean the building of 3,254 miles of line, which will cost about £3,400 per mile, or, in round figures, 14 millions, while, including the cost of the electrification and the taking over of the Cape Central line, the total cost will be 18 millions. I am in favour of the taking over of the New Cape Central Railway, and steps will be taken to achieve this at the earliest possible moment. At the same time this can only be done along strict business lines and by due consideration being given to the interests of the taxpayer, and while the administration of the Cape Central takes up the attitude which it is doing at present, nothing can be done. The Government is in favour of doing everything possible to serve the needs of the pioneers of the country’s civilization, who in the past had often been neglected in order to serve various populous centres. I am rather disappointed in not being able to promise an extension of the railway system, but I want to give the House the assurance that the Government thoroughly realizes the need of extending the means of conveyance in the country. The Government realizes that not enough has been done for the distant parts of the country, where the pioneers are trying to make a living. When a new programme of construction is made up the interests of those parts will receive special consideration. The Railway Administration is in favour of extending the motor service to various parts of the country without being primarily concerned with the question whether or not such a service will pay. The Government is greatly concerned with the necessity of placing producers into touch with the markets, so that products which to-day are often unpayable might in future become profitable means of livelihood of farmers in outlying districts. In connection with the conveyance of cream, milk and butter, the farmers require an easy, cheap and quick means of conveyance in order to place their products on the market, which would otherwise be wasted. To-day there is a great deal of wastage because the farmers are too far from the markets. Where the Government is unable to grant the request contained in some or other motion, it is prepared to take into favourable consideration a proposal for the establishment of a motor service. Regarding the Springbok Flats light railway, I may say that if the light railway line in those parts proves a success the Government will give favourable consideration to the question of extending the principle of those light lines. The Government in the circumstances is prepared to accept the motion and amendments before the House for consideration to be given to the building of the lines asked for.

The amendments were put and agreed to.

Motion, as amended, put and agreed to, viz.—