I move—

Mr. ROBINSON seconded.

I object.

I would ask the hon. member to withdraw his objection. It is a matter which should be allowed to pass unopposed.

I withdraw my objection.

The motion was agreed to.

I move—That the House go into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the following resolution: That, subject to the provisions of an Act to be passed during the present session of Parliament, and to such rebates or remissions of duty as may be provided for therein, the customs duties on the articles as set forth in the accompanying schedule be increased to the extent shown therein.

Schedule.

I want to say a few words with regard to this matter—not the Income Tax. My hon. friend must have been misinformed with regard to the carbonate of soda. The existing duty is 3 per cent. I find that in report 33 of the Board of Trade and Industries it says the import duty of 1s. 6d. per hundred pounds should be imposed, but this is 2s. Then there is a very good condition attached to this, has my hon. friend got this undertaking from the company that the foregoing duty be contingent on the company at once taking the initial steps to manufacture high grade salt and caustic soda, and unless this be done within a reasonable time, the concession shall be withdrawn. Then why is the Minister putting this increased burden on other industries? This carbonate of soda is a raw material in the manufacture of soap and also of explosives, and why put 6d. extra on? Is it to provide for the excessive capital this company has? If my hon. friend will look at page 2 of this report I think it is rather interesting, and I draw the attention of the hon. Minister of Labour to this point. We have heard a good deal in the past of the moneyed interests, and I am astonished, now that my hon. friend is in the Government, that he allows this extra duty to be put on. In 1912 the capital of this company was £20,000, in 1918 £42,000, in 1920 £92,500, in 1921 £120,000. The total premium from the issue of shares amounted to £33,300. In 1922-’23 the loss on working, apart from interest was £4,300. In 1920 the control was ceded to the South African Townships and Mining Corporation, which advanced £50,000 on debentures at 8 per cent., receiving 5,000 shares under certain under-writing conditions. It guaranteed 52,000 shares so that the new capital would be £105,000, and if all the options are exercised the share capital will be £250.000—for a company which started with £20.000. It is only fair to say that they have spent large sums in experimenting upon machinery and so forth, but there appears to be a good deal of water in the capital all the same. I would like to ask the hon. Minister if this 6d. is added to pay the interest on the water. Certainly, as it seems to me, I do not see why the Minister should go out of his way to put on an additional burden, and perhaps my hon. friend can give us some explanation.

Yes, I may inform the hon. member that the 2s. is recommended by the Board of Trade and Industries. The hon. member is quite right; the Board originally said 1s. 6d. but I personally discussed the matter with it, and the Board agreed that the 1s. 6d. would not be adequate protection, and the company could not start a successful industry on it. I have not gone beyond it. The Board thought this would be the minimum protection of the industry if it was to do any good. In regard to the manufacture of caustic soda, of course these steps are taken, and we hope this company will be in a position to carry out its undertakings, but if the company does not do anything, we can withdraw the concession. It is understood that this assistance will enable the company to do something. If the company does not do so, it is open for the Government to review the position.

Motion put and agreed to.

House in Committee.

Customs Duties.

I move—

May I have some explanation of the second item? I do not quite follow the change.

Well, it is not making any actual difference. The only thing is that we are preventing in future importers from importing 10 lb. packets and coming in under the reduced duty of 4d. We propose that the 10 lb. packets should also be considered as being “in bulk.” Now “in bulk” is considered an amount of more than 10 lbs.

The motion was agreed to.

Income Tax.

having moved the second resolution.

I move as an amendment—

Under the law as it stands, if a farmer sinks a borehole in a camp, he is not allowed to deduct the expenditure when he makes his Income Tax return. It is essential the farmer should have water, and as Government is encouraging farmers to sink boreholes, I hope the amendment will be accepted. As farmers, we want to pay our fair share towards the upkeep of the State, but we hope Government will make this concession. The acceptance of my amendment will not put the Income Tax machinery out of gear. After all this will be only a temporary loss to the revenue, which will benefit in the long run as farmers’ incomes will be increased by the sinking of boreholes.

I appeal to my hon. friend (Mr. van Heerden) not to press the amendment. Apart from the merits of the question, if we once commence having amendments made, how can I resist appeals from every side of the House to amend the Act? Do not let us go into the merits of these various things. If once the hon. member starts, it will be impossible to avoid a discussion of the whole field of the income tax. What the hon. member has urged will receive due consideration next year.

Do I understand from the Minister that he is giving a pledge to the House that the question will be gone into fully next year?

I do not say that I accept the principle, but the representations will receive consideration.

The question is really an important one. Under existing conditions the expense of sinking bore holes is charged to capital account, and the only means the farmers have of paying the costs of sinking bore holes—unless they are going to put further encumbrances on their property—is to take advantage of a good season and pay the expense out of the proceeds of that season. Anything the Minister may do in the direction of encouraging the farming population to bore for water and to provide for droughts, is to be encouraged. The money that will be lost to the State in the first instance will be recouped later on over and over again by the increased income tax the farmers will subsequently pay. I hope the Minister will go into the question in an exceedingly sympathetic manner.

I wish to call the Minister’s attention to the recommendation of the Drought Commission that the cost of fencing should be allowed as a charge against revenue for income tax assessment. If this is done, farmers will be encouraged to do their duty and erect more fences.

I would like to endorse the remarks of the hon. member who has just spoken. The Minister will greatly assist the farmers if he will take into favourable consideration during the recess the question of expenditure for fencing. At present expenditure is looked upon as capital expenditure, not to be deducted from the income of the farmer for income tax purposes, although expenditure of that kind in time increases income. The wages of a shepherd can be deducted from his income but not his expenditure for camps, which serve the same purpose. It is a matter of great importance to the sheep farmers. It is desirable in the interests of agriculture that there should be more fences as they tend in time to make farming operations more profitable.

It is all very well to put this matter off until next year, but the drought has been on for a long time, and the expenditure was incurred during the last financial year. If the hon. the Minister will give me the assurance that this matter will receive his earnest attention I will withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, with leave, withdrawn.

Motion put and agreed to.

House Resumed.

Report to-morrow.

When we were discussing this Vote last, there was some discussion on the question of interpreters. We heard from hon. members for Natal that they find European interpreters more satisfactory than natives. In the Cape Province we have many native interpreters who are highly efficient and give every satisfaction. In many areas the effect of having a native interpreter, providing he is efficient, gives a degree of confidence to the native who is being tried which he has not with a European interpreter. Provided the native interpreters are efficient—that should be the only test—I would like to see the principle adopted that where a native can be employed when a native is being tried that should be done.

It is obvious, of course, that in certain areas it is essential to have native interpreters, because there is a feeling of greater security among the natives as far as the administration of justice is concerned. We quite agree that the point to be considered is efficiency, and we must take into consideration how the administration of justice will be best served. The objection taken by one hon. member, which is well founded, was that in certain cases a native interpreter is employed to interpret in the official languages between white men That is quite wrong I think. I believe it is also wrong that native clerks should be used to deal with Europeans having business relations with the office concerned. As far as the objection of the hon. members for Natal is concerned, I think they are largely based on this question of efficiency and not on the mere question of the interpreter being a native. In areas that are not wholly native areas it may in many cases increase efficiency to have a European interpreter. The question of the police courts in Johannesburg has also been raised. I think there is a considerable amount of congestion in the Johannesburg courts, and the buildings are not as good as they might be. I think the position may be assisted by better organization of the work there, and that is one of the matters I will enquire into.

*The hon. member for Ceres (Mr. Roux) asked whether the periodical court which was held at Kluitjeskraal could not be held at Wolseley. If it is found that the latter is a better place this request will be acceded to. Special justices of the peace are now only appointed at places not very far from magisterial centres. We are being inundated with applications for special justices of the peace, and all the applicants receive due consideration. The hon. member for Harrismith (Mr. Cilliers) asked whether the Government intends to carry out the resolution of the Stock Theft Commission, and I may say that the Government is considering the matter.

†Then a further question was raised with regard to Boston in the Natal area. I will see the hon. member on that matter before the adjournment of this session. The last point I have noticed is the question raised by the hon. member for Delarey (Mr. Van Hees) with regard to certain summonses issued and the special procedure involved. He asks us to make the same provision as is in force the Transvaal. That will be enquired into. One does not like to treat the Provinces in exactly the same way it may be that different consideration would apply in different districts, but I will go into the matter and see if we can assist.

I did not quite gather from the hon. Minister’s reply whether the Government have quite decided not to go on with the new buildings for the courts in Johannesburg. I may speak from my own knowledge and say that these buildings are very badly wanted. We were going into the matter when we were in office and I hope the Minister will take up the threads where we left them.

I did not mean to give the impression that we were not going to do anything.

There is no provision in the Loan Vote.

No, not now.

I would like to ask the Minister whether it is intended to go into the codification or alteration of the Liquor laws. I know it is early to ask him this question, but still he has no doubt given it consideration. I think the late Minister of Justice had a Bill ready to deal with the matter. The sale of Liquor to coloured and Natives is a crying evil here in the Cape.

Might I point out to the Minister the considerable discomfort magistrates are put to in small towns in not having proper accommodation. They come to these small places and are unable to find a house, e.g., Tarkastad. The result is that they are always dissatisfied in such places and try to get transfers. I hope the Minister will take the matter into consideration. With regard to the Magistrate’s court at Middelburg, Cape Province, I would like to state that the buildings are in a disgraceful condition. I hope the Minister will make proper provision for erecting a new building.

A special justice of the peace is urgently required at Charl Cilliers. Several representations had been made to the authorities, but without success. There is not even a policeman in the place although it is 18 miles from the nearest town.

It is only good people who live there.

This is nothing to laugh at. Recently a person was burnt to death in a shop, and there was nobody to help him out, and there was not even an enquiry.

There is one point in connection with the appointment of native interpreters in Natal, which has not been made sufficiently clear. The objection which comes from Natal is not so much to the appointment of native interpreters for native cases, but of recent years in Zululand a large number of magistrates of the lower grades have been appointed and their European clerks have been done away with and replaced by native clerks. In the past this kind of appointment has afforded an avenue for the training of young officials who have in later years proved some of the best native departmental officials in the country. There is strong objection to these avenues of appointment to Europeans being closed up in this way. There is also some objection on the part of the Zulus themselves—strangely enough—to the employment of natives as clerks to handle revenue and who stand to them in the light of superiors. They would much prefer to have Europeans employed in these posts. I should like the Minister to consider whether it is not in the interest of the natives themselves to give them the very best type of official especially in Zululand where opportunities of defrauding natives are frequent. I think the Minister should not be content to let them have the second-best.

I would like to draw the Minister’s attention to the working of the Special J.P.’s court at Mooi River. This is a Court which has at last been granted after years of application, and it is not only a great convenience to a closely populated centre, but is doing good work in many directions, and I wish to convey my appreciation of the appointment of an excellent officer, but I cannot congratulate the Government on the fact that this officer has been appointed at a starvation rate of pay. It is impossible for any man to keep up such a position and provide adequately for a growing family on such a salary. I trust the Minister will give his serious attention to this matter. I think I should also at the same time like to point out that the working of this court is considerably prejudiced by the fact that in its details and powers it requires some extension. Summonses, for instance, still have to be issued from Estcourt, a distance of twenty miles away, to the delay in service and consequent increased cost to the receiver of the summons.

At Middelburg we have electric lights, but the magistrate’s court is in darkness, and electric light ought to be installed.

The magistrate’s court at Middelburg is not lit up because the Department of Public Works has no funds.

†With regard to what the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) said about the codification of the liquor laws, it is an extremely thorny subject, which we have to face, and I shall have to consider it during the recess. I discussed the matter with my hon. predecessor, Senator De Wet, and he told me that the condition he laid down was that he would require a whole session for the consideration of the liquor laws. I do not know whether I shall be able to deal with this question next session, but I shall enquire into it before then.

*If Charl Cilliers is only 18 miles from the nearest magistrate’s court, a special justice of the peace cannot be appointed because the distance has to be at least 20 miles, but I shall enquire into the matter. Applications for police are legion, and they cannot all be granted. I will make enquiries regarding the position at Charl Cilliers.

†On the question asked by the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) with regard to native clerks, I personally am in agreement with him and do not believe in natives filling clerkships, but this is also a question on which divergence of opinion exists, and the whole matter will be gone into. Certainly where native clerks cannot do their work properly we cannot employ them. As to the position of the Mooi River Special Justice of the Peace, these full-time Justices of the Peace are graded as second-class clerks, and the gradings are laid down by the Public Service Commission, to whose notice I will bring the matter. As to summonses being sent from Estcourt, that is in accordance with the provisions of the Magistrate’s Court Act, and amending legislation would be necessary.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 17,—“Prisons and Reformatories,” £761,650,

I should like to draw the on. Minister’s attention to this. Provision is made under this vote for probation officers, for, I understand, Johannesburg and Pretoria, but none for Durban, where the need is an urgent one. I must ask that a whole-time officer be appointed at the Durban magistrate’s courts. At present private effort provides the salary of a part-time officer.

I want to draw attention of the Government to the objections there are to the principle of hiring out convicts, which has been done on the East Rand and at Kimberley. I understand that 2,000 convicts are employed by De Beers Company, and they have these convicts year in and year out at 2d. per day. At the East Rand areas they pay something like 9d. The guards are mostly workers—with revolvers strapped to their sides. The whole thing has been a long-standing scandal, and would not have been allowed to anybody but the big corporations, and to this big corporation, De Beers, which has always managed somehow to have the Government disposed in its favour. If there is any trouble in the mine, and in the event of closing operations, the Government at once gets the convicts handed back. The head of the Prisons Department complained bitterly of this practice. The whole thing is demoralizing. The De Beers Company also offer rewards for finding diamonds, and some of these convicts leave the district comparatively wealthy men. When I was in Kimberley they used to strike iron standards like a bell, and rewarded convicts with liquor if they handed over diamonds they had found. We shall be told by De Beers representatives in this House that they lose money on it, and are acting on philanthropic motives! I expect that one of the understudies of the hon. member for Beaconsfield (Col. Sir David Harris)—there are so many of them—will get up and say so. It is difficult to say what the profits of De Beers are. Yesterday I was informed, in reply to a question, that the books of De Beers did not disclose profits made from trading in their compounds, so it is evident the blandishments of that company still reach Government departments. This sort of bookkeeping is strictly illegal, and would not be permitted to ordinary traders, and should be the subject of strict enquiry. I hope that the Government will make a thorough investigation into this matter of convict employment, and put a stop to it. There is great objection to it on the part of free labour. The pressure put on the convicts is such as would not dare to be put on free labour, and it is unfair that convicts should be handed over to a private corporation? Let the Government make an exhaustive enquiry, and show that it is not afraid of that great corporation—De Beers.

The salaries of the temporary prison warders are 6s. per day, and it is impossible for public servants to live on such a small income. They do the same work as the permanent warders who get £20 per month. I also think a board of supervision for the prisons is unnecessary.

I should like to ask the hon. Minister for information on two matters; firstly, with regard to reformatory institutions; for instance, at Tokai and elsewhere. A couple of years ago an investigation was made into the reformatories, and subsequently Mr. Feetham wrote to the Department strongly pressing the point how the new boys on arrival at the reformatory were dealt with, and suggesting that they should be kept apart from the older inhabitants for a time before they were allowed to mingle together. This separation is very desirable, particularly on medical grounds, but also because of its effect on moral and discipline. I take it that at Tokai all the convicts have been removed, and that the place is now entirely used for reformatory purposes—partly for whites and partly for coloured. The second question is as to the discharge of time-expired prisoners, who come from, say, Johannesburg and are discharged here, so that the unfortunate community in which such a prisoner is discharged gets the benefit of his ripe experience. It is stated that some places get an undue share of these returned prisoners. I know the difficulties—I have seen the Department about this before. But I want consideration to be given to the question of devising a method by which on the discharge of a prisoner he is back at the place from which he came.

I hope the Minister will abolish the system of hiring out convicts to public bodies, as farmers require their services more urgently. Under the administration of the previous Minister the charge was increased from 1s. to 1s. 6d. per day, and I hope the Minister will reduce this again.

Of recent years it has been the practise of several of the leading residents of Park Town, Johannesburg, to get the assistance of prisoners from the Fort to make up their ground. These people are well able to afford to pay free labour for the beautifying of their grounds, and the practise should be stopped. These people are amongst the foremost who have been shouting for the employment of white men by the Johannesburg Town Council.

The allegations of the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) are based on misrepresentations. An enquiry will be welcomed by De Beers.

It is obvious from the reply of the Minister of labour that the Government does not intend to provide convicts for private labour any longer. The hon. member for Waterberg (Mr. P. W. le R, van Niekerk) voiced the opinion of the country people. I do not want to go into the principle of the hiring out of convicts. I take it that it is not solely the intention to punish them, and I know that in other countries convicts are taught a trade by which they can earn something. The moral atmosphere of our prisons is not wholesome, and the state of things ought to be improved. Experience has shown that suitable work in the country has proved beneficial to these people.

I would like to know the Minister’s policy as regards the employment of convicts. The other day I understood the Minister of Labour to say that convict labour would be withdrawn from all work where private labour can be employed. When the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) spoke about the things De Beers are doing in regard to the employment of convicts he must have known that for years past convict labour has been at the disposal of farmers in the Constantia district. If we adopt the Minister of Labour’s policy it will not do very much good to the country to employ convicts only in picking oakum or making baskets! The convicts should be used in State enterprizes, and especially in development work on the harbours and roads. The construction of three or four main trunk roads through the country will do more to develop the Union than, perhaps, the construction of a lot of the railway lines which have been asked for. Private labour could also be employed on road building, but I earnestly commend to the attention of the Government this suggestion.

It sometimes happens that superintendents of prisoners are recruited from junior officials in preference to more experienced officers, and I hope this will be seen to and older hands given preference. I would also like to point out that in the Lowveld the prison officials get very low local allowances. I would like to know from the Government whether reformatories will in future be under the Department of Education. We ought to try to save as many of these young people as possible, and that can only be done by the specialists of the Education Department.

I support the point made the hon. member for Stamford Hill about the necessity of the employment of a female probation officer at Durban. These female probation officers have proved most useful and really do work which in many cases helps those who come before the Courts on a criminal charge to get back into the right path. Some of the reformatory schools should be transferred to the Department of Education. The reformatory at Houtpoort might advantageously be combined with the industrial school at Emmasdale.

About 10 or 12 years ago the Union Government came to an agreement with the Provincial Council for the construction of motor roads round Table Mountain. This might very well be extended to other parts of the country. In Tembuland we have no roads. Our prisoners are sent here, but if you allowed the natives to remain in the Territory to construct roads there we might obtain some development.

I wish to support what has been said with regard to the desirability of employing convicts on road making. We have a great deal to learn in this respect from Swaziland, where all prisoners are employed in the making of roads. This is a form of punishment which brings about no evil results, as does the over-crowding in prisons. At the end of the Zulu Rebellion Sir Charles Saunders constructed a road from Ginginhlovu to Eshowe which is a lasting monument to labour of this kind. There is considerable feeling in Durban against the discharge, in Durban, of criminals of a very bad type who have been employed on the graving dock convict gang. Very serious crimes have been committed by these men. When they are discharged the Prisons Department should take precautions to see that they leave the town.

I support the representations which have been made as to the great need for Government having trunk roads constructed in the Union. The Transvaal Roads League is a most representative body and has been considering road construction. It has done a most useful work and has accumulated a mass of invaluable statistical information from all over the world. Convict labour should be utilized largely in the construction of roads. The condition of a country’s roads are a fair index of the country’s progress and civilization. There is hardly a road in the Pretoria district apart from the Johannesburg road which is in a trafficable state. “We want good roads” is the slogan of the Transvaal roads league. This slogan will I trust be adopted by the Government.

The hon. member is allowed to ask a question, but not to discuss a matter as it is one of policy.

Convicts can be used on much more useful work than road construction, namely the destruction of obnoxious weeds, especially jointed cactus. A large part of the country will thus benefit, as this is a pest in ten or twelve districts of the Union and is becoming a danger to the rest of the country.

With regard to the remarks made about our roads, as compared with the American roads, I may say I was out with an American on Saturday, who remarked on what fine roads we had got here. He said he had 13,000 miles of misery in America compared with our roads. I would ask the Minister to see that prison labour instead of being used in competition with ordinary labour, should be confined to public works. Then I hope the Minister will see that coloured persons going to prison are not deprived of their boots and underclothing. You want to punish these people, but not fit them for cemeteries. I hope they will have a competition in the prisons to make them as comfortable as possible.

With regard to the question of a probation officer for Durban, the matter is being dealt with by the Government. I think it will be impossible to resist the conclusion that we must have a fulltime probation officer at Durban in the same way as at Pretoria, Johannesburg and Cape Town. In next year’s estimates we hope to deal with this matter. The question of convict labour is very difficult, as the prison officials have to procure work for their convicts. In Cape Town the hiring out of convicts is not done in a spirit of competition, but is simply due to the fact that we cannot get work for them. The whole policy will have to be gone into. There are forms of work suited for convict labour, and other forms of work not so well suited. I think if we can undertake the building of trunk roads and use convict labour, or inspire the Provincial Councils to do so, it would assist materially. I think road making is one of the things that can fairly be done by convict labour. Another matter which might also be done by convict labour is quarrying. I quite agree in principle we should not allow convicts to be used for work which should be done by free labour. There are, however, certain special types of work which would not be done at all unless they were done at the specially low rate paid for convicts. For instance, the road above Muizenberg, and many other works would not be undertaken unless convicts could be employed. I think where we are convinced that work would not be done at all unless you use convict labour, we are justified in using it. The whole matter is being, complicated to-day by the problem of unemployment, and that makes it difficult to lay down too definite a policy now. A further point was made that special corporations obtain special privileges. I understand the rate being paid by De Beers is a small rate, but I understand they bear special expenses. It will be necessary for me to see whether they are specially privileged. The rate in the Transvaal is 1s. 6d. a day; in Cape Town it is 1s. 3d.; I believe it is considerably less to De Beers.

*The question of lower wages for temporary warders has been raised, and I would like to point out that it is a general practice that temporary employees are paid on a lower basis. Temporary warders are appointed occasionally. The work offers no career to them, and the Government is not able to increase their pay.

†The hon. member for Rondebosch (Mr. Close) raised the question of Tokai, and how the new boys are being dealt with. I propose to visit Tokai during the present sitting, and will make thorough enquiries on the spot as to how that institution is being run. An important point has been raised on the discharge of convicts at some place to which they do not belong. Of course if they are discharged at such places all the Government can do is to give them a railway warrant to their place of trial. This is being done. The hon. member, however, asks whether it is not possible to take them back to the place where they were tried before discharging them. The question is, I suppose, if it is practically possible to send them to that place—can you provide for the expense of the necessary warders? If that is possible it would be a very useful solution of the difficulty. The only point as far as I can see is whether you have sufficient warders, and whether the expense will not be too heavy. I will go into the matter and see whether it is possible.

I thought it might be done by groups.

Quite so. I will see if that can be done. Then the hon. member for Yeoville (Mr. Duncan) raised the point that certain reformatories could be usefully placed under the Minister of the Interior. I think in certain cases that may be possible, and I will go into the matter with the hon. Minister of the Interior.

*A great deal is done for the improvement of the lot of the prisoners. They are taught trades, and I know that in Pretoria many things are made by them, and I intend to encourage this system as far as possible. We will also consider the matter of destruction of obnoxious weeds by convicts. This is a point, however, which is under the jurisdiction of the Provincial Councils, and that makes it rather involved. It is the practice to give preference to the older officials in cases of promotion, but we should not lose sight of the question of the suitability of a man. The question of local allowances is being attended to.

I would like to point out that my hon. friend the Minister of Finance is very interested in this question of convict labour. I see the receipts given in the Departmental receipts for that labour were over £100,000, and I note also in his estimates for 1924-’25 £120,000 is estimated to be received from the same sources. I hope when the Minister of Justice goes into the matter he will also consult his colleague.

Yes, the whole Cabinet.

De Beers payment for labour, 1922, was £11,234, but my hon. friend the member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) has overlooked the fact that De Beers are not the only employers of convict labour. It is employed on the East Rand mines. My hon. friend has also forgotten that the Pretoria prison gets over £13,000 from convict labour at. Pretoria I hope he will go into that.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 18, “Police,” £2,538,755,

I want to bring to the notice of the Minister a matter which was mentioned by the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell). That is in regard to the practice which exists of sending certain members of the police force in Johannesburg and other centres, when they require hospital treatment, to Roberts Heights in Pretoria. The Minister said he did not think there was very much to complain about there, and he did not see his way to discontinue that practice. I hope he will go into it a little more, because as hon. members will easily see, if a member of the police force becomes dangerously ill in say Kimberley, and is sent to Roberts Heights, it may be a very serious matter for his relatives to get to see him. There have been such cases where the illness has been fatal, and relatives have been unable to get to see the patients before they died. This is a body of public servants who do not make a fuss about grievances unless they have something serious behind it. I would ask the Minister to see whether some arrangement to deal with these men locally cannot be come to.

There are rumours afloat that the police posts in the country are going to be abolished. I do hope that it will not be done, as we have few conveniences as it is. If it is done, stock thefts will increase enormously, and the thieves will be able to get away over the boundary if there are not intervening police posts. I would also urge the minister to effect a change in the system and in the procedure followed by the police in cases of stock theft. At present the police only patrol by day, but it would be much more effective if they also patrolled by night, even if it is only two nights a week.

I should like to draw attention to the police personnel in Natal. There seems to be a rooted objection on the part of authorities to the recruitment of young Natal men into the police force, not only a right which each province should not allow to be ignored but it is of the utmost importance in Natal, with its huge native population, that the police there should possess a thorough knowledge of native languages and customs, and the young men who are sent to us, excellent in many respects no doubt, do not have that knowledge, with the result that a large amount of crime goes undetected. If these young men from Natal were recruited, it would add to the efficiency of the police force, and the increased suppression of crime.

I support the request of the hon. member for Wepener (Mr. Hugo) that the police should not be concentrated in the towns. Unfortunately, there seems to be a tendency with the police to confine themselves more to clerical work in offices and to do less outside work. We see a number of police and officers doing the correspondence, and the number in the field decreasing. It is true, there are many inspectors about, but they do very little and draw large salaries to travel all over the country and speculate in land. Sometimes a person is arrested in Pretoria, and the case is heard in Klerksdorp, and if he is acquitted he is left there without the means of going home. When convicted, he gets a pass home on his release. I can quote several cases, and I think it is most unfair.

I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether, in making appointments of European police, due regard is had to the efficiency of the police in native languages. The hon. member for Weenen (Maj. Richards) has mentioned this and I associate myself entirely with what he has said. I must say there is a strong feeling in my part of the world that there is great room for improvement in that respect. It is felt that the European policeman should have a sufficient knowledge of the native language to take down a complaint, if a complaint is made, and a sufficient knowledge of the language to interrogate witnesses and carry out investigations generally. A policeman should also have a sufficient knowledge of native customs. Our experience in Natal is that a great many of the men sent there are not proficient in the native language. It would be better to give preference to Natal native linguists for service in that province, as they in addition to knowing the language spoken there are conversant with the customs of the natives in that province. This applies particularly to the outlying districts, because in that case an interpreter is not always available with the result that the work of taking written statements is often done in a most unsatisfactory manner. There used to be a system in Natal under which a policeman, who was proficient in the native language, got a special allowance, this was held out as an inducement to men to make themselves proficient in the native language.

I would like to draw the Minister’s attention to the appointment of unilingual English-speaking police in Kenhardt and Gordonia, whereas there are Dutch-speaking police in the English-speaking centres. That ought not to be. There are also too many inspectors who draw high salaries, and whose travelling costs a lot of money.

In the Hospital division there is one of the largest police stations in the country (as regards numbers) where policemen are stationed and are resident. They recognize with deep gratitude what the late Government has done for them, and there is no doubt that under the late administration police conditions have been greatly ameliorated, and everything has been done for the comfort and well-being of these men. But the matter referred to by the hon. member for Yeoville (Mr. Duncan) is one they feel to be one of great hardship; that for hospital treatment they should be sent for a distance of about 35 miles. Such a man’s friends and visitors are practically debarred from seeing him, and the expenses of his wife and relatives in going to see him are probably more than the cost of local hospital treatment would be. There is the importance of his family being near him should a crisis occur, and their absence militates against his recovery. I hope that the good work which has been done by the late Government in improving the conditions regarding the police force, will be consummated by the present Government in granting this more than reasonable request.

The police maintain smiths for shoeing horses, and they travel about from place to place. A shoesmith has often to travel 24 miles to put shoes to one horse, and that costs a lot of money. It would be better if one or other farmer were asked to do the job. I do not see the need of sending about inspectors to see if the leggings of the police shine properly, as the head constable can easily do that.

I should like to assure the hon. Minister that this question of policemen possessing an adequate knowledge of native language and customs is a burning one amongst our farmers. The lack of such knowledge is responsible for crime being on the increase. I have seen policemen on patrol travelling with an interpreter and that should not be. A policeman should be capable of conducting his patrol alone.

We can economise a great deal on this item. For instance, a commandant has to go from Beaufort West to Loxton to investigate a trivial case, which could easily have been left to the local magistrate.

I should like to take this opportunity of emphasizing the representations I have already made. There are about 4,000 Europeans in Red Hill and Greenwood Park, and the police quarters are two miles distance away from this centre. It is felt that they should be nearer, and I trust the hon. Minister of Justice, who is already making enquiry, will accede to this request.

Last session I brought to the attention of the Minister the question of police dogs. I see the amount for that item has been increased from £1,200 to £1,600. The number of dogs should be greatly increased, and I am sure five of these dogs will do more than five policemen, and I know the property of the farmer is much more secure where a dog is stationed, as thieves are frightened to death by them, and it is not possible for them to adduce much evidence in their own favour. In the Western Free State the farmers do not notify stock theft any more, as it is useless. Therefore I hope that more dogs will be available, as every rural member, I am sure, will endorse the complaint of the hon. member for Wepener (Mr. Hugo), that there is not adequate police supervision in the country. The police are concentrated in the towns. I really do not know what they want to do with all their titles. When they get into the country they are so loaded with official documents and unnecessary formalities that they cannot give their attention properly to local conditions. The thefts are not only committed by natives; I think there are also many two-legged jackals with white skins. Unfortunately there are many stock thefts which are not brought to the attention of the authorities, and it is therefore urgently necessary that the number of police and dogs should be increased.

I fully realize the great importance of this service, but I think a thorough investigation is necessary in the direction indicated by the hon. member for Boshof (Mr. C. A. van Niekerk). The police service is hop-heavy, more especially so because it is our first line of defence, as is shown during disturbances and riots when the police are the first to be sent to the spot. We should have either a police or a defence force, but not a combination of the two. I would suggest to the Minister to see if the police force cannot be organized more efficiently. The Estimates show that the police force is top-heavy. Eleven police officers get more than £1,000 per annum and more than a hundred get over £500 before we come to the head constables, of whom there are a great number. The head constables earn their salaries, and the. Minister ought to give more attention to their interests. At the present time there are too many inspectors, and all the time is taken up by “red-tape” procedure. I know of a case where an inspector wrote a formal letter from his office to the head constable in the adjoining office. The head constable then investigated the matter and sent another formal letter to the inspector. Such elaborate procedure is not necessary and is a sign of poor organization. There is a strong feeling in the country that the police should work under the supervision of the magistrates as before. We can do without all the inspectors and sub-inspectors where there is a good head constable, and in that way great economies can be effected. The police force should not be a military force.

I invite the Minister’s attention to the desirability of some economy being effected in the cost of the training of police. We have a depôt in Cape Town which entails considerable expenditure for the training of police, and there is another depôt at Pretoria for precisely the same purpose. It seems to me that one of the depôts can be done away with without loss of efficiency and with considerable economy. The question of language qualifications has been referred to by previous speakers. The bulk of crime in Natal is committed by natives, and the police are at a very serious disadvantage in investigating crime as they have to depend on people who do not understand the native language. The whole system of investigation fails owing to the lack of a knowledge of the native language by the investigators. The old language allowance should be restored, and police officials should be encouraged to make themselves efficient in native languages. The Minister should consider the application of the Police Offences Act of 1882 of the Cape to Natal. With the growth of urban areas in Natal there is always a fringe of native population surrounding towns and this native population is exceedingly troublesome to control. The Cape Police Offences Act, however, would afford considerable help.

The hon. member cannot now advocate legislation.

In my district, which borders on native territory, there is much stock theft owing to a shortage of police, and consequently the farmers suffer heavy losses. Some time ago we were fortunate enough in having police dogs, but for some reason or other they have been taken away. The dogs did excellent work, and we ought to get them again. From reports I have had, I think young men in the police force are not fairly treated. I have been informed that if a policeman is promoted three persons come from other districts to examine him. That seems unnecessary expense.

I have heard rumours that it is the intention to do away with the police outposts, and I want to appeal to the Minister not to put the country district to greater inconvenience than it has to suffer at present. I do not want to blame the police, but the people in the country think that they do not get value for the money paid for their maintenance. They only patrol during the day, whereas formerly there were always night patrols. Only the knowledge that the police go about at night prevented thefts by natives and dishonest white people. I hope the Minister will accede to the request of providing more police dogs, as that is a splendid investment of money.

With regard to hospital treatment for the police, they go to Roberts Heights and Wynberg for specialist treatment. That system was introduced when the pay of the police was very small indeed. When it is impossible for the men to proceed either to Roberts Heights or to Wynberg they are treated at the places at which they are stationed, and in proper cases they recover from the State what the State would have actually paid if they had been treated at Roberts Heights. Recently a case occurred in which a policeman who was too ill to proceed to Roberts Heights was treated in the town in which he was stationed, and the Department allowed him ten guineas, although the amount he actually paid was something over £40. It is very difficult indeed for the State to bear the whole of that burden.

*Several hon. members have raised the question of police outposts, and I may say that as far as I am aware, there is no intention to do away with them. On the contrary, the tendency seems to be the other way. I have made investigations regarding the combating of stock thefts. The complaints concerning high salaries in the police force have been partially replied to by the hon. member who rightly pointed out that the police had become a semi-military force. It has been asserted that we can economize in the defence force by delegating some of its work to the police. This is a matter, however, into which I will have to go later.

†Hon. members have referred to the question of native language and customs. Where a case is made out for a knowledge of a native language, a special allowance might usefully be made, and I will enquire into the matter.

*Regarding the remarks made by the hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. Conradie), I may say that the police, like all other officials, ought to be bilingual, and the Government will do its best in that direction. The hon. member for Boshof (Mr. C. A. van Niekerk) asked that the Government should see that the police dogs rapidly multiply. I would like to point out, however, that the Government cannot accelerate nature’s course, but it will do its best to get more dogs.

†The hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) raised a very useful point with regard to the Cape Act proclaiming areas of jurisdiction round a town. That seems to me a very useful Act. Under that Act we find parts surrounding towns are being proclaimed in the Cape Province. I think we might see whether that could not be extended to Natal. Generally reference has been made to too much expenditure on the police force, but as far as that is concerned I think the force is very carefully organized to-day. It may be possible for some of the expenses to be curtailed, but as far as the higher salaried officers are concerned, those salaries are to some extent a heritage of the past, and when we get new incumbents in the course of time, the expense will be less. As far as the chief officers are concerned they are doing a lot of useful work and much which does not properly fall within the scope of police work in other parts of the world.

I want to call attention to a matter of great importance. On the 12th July of this year, in the “Daily Telegraph” (London), a matter of some importance was published. It says that Mr. Tom Mann, speaking as a member of the British delegation to the Communist International Congress in Moscow on July 1st, made a statement as to the native population in the Union of South Africa. He said that in South Africa there were 1,500,000 whites and 6,000,000 natives and that the natives are in a state of servitude; that the white workers refused to associate with them or to fight with them against the capitalists and the blacks had been left to their own devices so that they had gradually organized themselves for class warfare: that these black workers were travelling towards communism, and he asked the Committee of the International to help the movement. Now, I want to know whether the police are cognizant of this movement and what Steps are being taken to combat it. We have enough trouble in this country without urging the natives to class warfare. There is too much class warfare in this country as it is. I think this matter should have the Minister’s serious consideration.

I would like to support the view expressed by the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben). I suggest that if the Minister would make enquiries in a judicious manner he would find considerable evidence in support of the statement that this movement is being carried on among the natives. I have myself come across considerable evidence of this movement in Natal and I could inform the Minister, though I do not wish to do so publicly in this House, of certain sources of information that could be made available to him and which would doubtless establish that this movement is being carried on amongst the natives in certain parts of Natal.

That matter should be raised under Vote 24, Native Affairs.

It necessitates police investigation, and that is why it is mentioned now. I now propose to revert to a purely police matter. That is the difficulty with which employers are confronted in Natal in cases of desertion. It is almost impossible to trace deserters when once they have left their master’s employment. It has been suggested that native chiefs would help to trace deserters if some inducement is offered. It would be comparatively an inexpensive form of carrying out the Masters and Servants Act in Natal where it is practically a dead letter.

I hope the Minister will not consider the suggestion made by the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) and think of spending public money to employ native chiefs to act as spies. I hope the Minister will seriously consider the advisability of repealing section 14 of the Native Labour Regulations Act No. 15 of 1911, by which it is made a crime for a native to leave employment with which he is dissatisfied.

The hon. member is not in order in discussing legislation.

It seems to me that this propaganda which hon. members have discovered is due to their own imagination more than anything else. It is largely due to that provision which we have on the Statute Book that we make native slaves, to be exploited by capitalists. The natives are very much like any other human beings. You bring the natives into another environment; they want more wages and better conditions of labour, and the next you hear is that such demands are due to “terrible propaganda,” and supposed to be carried on by agitators.

I cannot allow this discussion to proceed any further.

I am only dealing with the points raised by the other hon. member.

I stopped that other hon. member also.

I do not think we can enter into a wide discussion at this stage. Where any complaint is made about agitation amongst the natives, and even without any complaints, the police keep a very careful eye on it. With regard to native chiefs rounding up offenders under the Masters and Servants Act, this is a matter I would rather not deal with at the moment. It also raises a very wide question.

Perhaps the hon. Minister may give fuller information on the important matter raised by the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben). With regard to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, you will find under “M” “other criminal investigation,” and I understand the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben) is extremely anxious to know what steps the Department of Justice is taking in connection with what I, the hon. member, and a majority of hon. members of this House, consider a very serious question.

The hon. member can ask the question, but is not entitled to debate.

We are very creditably informed, and it was a matter engaging the attention of the late Government, that propaganda both by word of mouth and literature, was being carried amongst the native population of this country, and although the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge) may be able to assimilate socialist doctrines and place an interpretation upon them—

On a point of order, the hon. member is traversing a point on which he should be stopped.

The hon. member is not in order to deal with the same question with which the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge) dealt.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member after his absence has to renew his acquaintance with the rules of the House, and his knowledge is improving. I think I am in perfect order in asking the hon. Minister what is being done under this “criminal investigation.” Before we vote £1,250 we are desirous of knowing how much of that money the hon. Minister’s department is going to spend in investigating a very serious state of affairs indeed.

Is it a crime known to the law?

The hon. Minister of Labour must not get so excited, and a large number of those who sit behind him do not have the same view as the hon. Minister.

Is the hon. member discussing any crime on the Statute Book of this country?

The hon. Minister of Labour’s withers are beginning to be wrung, and in many other discussions he will find himself in the same awkward and painful position as he is in at the present time. But I am not addressing the hon. Minister of Labour, and I hope he will not interrupt me. I am addressing the hon. Minister of Justice, and I ask him, is he going to see that a certain amount of this money is devoted to stopping the propaganda which is going to have such serious consequences? Propaganda of that kind instilled into the native mind, is not only going to be against the good Government and peace in this country, but it is doing a disservice to the native population itself.

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask you if any member is in order in discussing anything which appears in the report of the Commissioner of Police.

If it is a matter of crime the hon. member may. I do not know whether the hon. Minister considers the propaganda referred to as a crime.

I ask it because if hon. members will read the report of the gentleman in charge of the police of this country he will read almost every year something in connection with Bolshevik propaganda which is supposed to go on in connection with the natives, but in the committee upstairs, when I asked the police for particulars of this—

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member in order in referring to the proceedings of a Select Committee upstairs which is still sitting?

No, the hon. member is not entitled to do so.

Let us get away from this. I have another point I wish to raise under this heading, and I think I will be in order, seeing that it is not dealing with Bolshevism. Is the hon. Minister prepared to take immediate steps to carry out the wishes of the head of the police force and have proper quarters provided for the police in South Africa? In many cases the quarters are verminous; the police refuse to occupy them and prefer to live outside. It is not fair that year after year they should have to suffer as they do in Wale Street. In the present time of unemployment the Government could very well spend money in providing decent quarters for the police. In my constituency the Government are putting up quarters for the police in the shape of a cheap type of rondavel. We want a good and contented police force.

The department does all it can to deal with the question of buildings, but on account of financial considerations it cannot deal with the whole matter at once. We are always pressing the Public Works Department to proceed with the work, and in time we hope to have the whole position rectified. I do not regard the rondavel type of building as being of less utility or less healthy than the ordinary square built house. With regard to propaganda work amongst the natives, the police are keeping their eyes open, as we recognize that if there are improper activities of this nature it might cause a disaster.

There is a considerable amount of dissatisfaction in the force because of the totally insufficient allowances paid to warders and constables who have to escort prisoners from one place to another and in that way the warders and constables are put to considerable expense. Higher officials have also complained on the same point, but it presses most hardly on the lower ranks, and I trust the Minister will give early and considerate attention to it.

I would like to emphasize what has been said about propaganda work amongst the natives and the necessity of police investigation. The position is becoming worse every year.

I have given the House the assurance that I will enquire into it.

I will read what the Commissioner of Police says on the subject on page 61 of the departmental report. The Commissioner says: “It is a matter for regret that nothing tangible has been done to build up an adequate system of intelligence.”

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, if you are going to allow one member to discuss this matter, let us have a free discussion.

I, personally, am of opinion that this is out of order, but I must say that, the Minister has referred to improper activities, and I am afraid that under these circumstances I shall have to allow the discussion.

I am quoting from a public document.

Would the hon. member prefer to wait until we reach the Native Affairs Vote, when he would be perfectly entitled to discuss the matter?

I am quoting from the Police Commissioner’s report, and we urge on the Minister the necessity of carrying out the recommendations of the Commissioner of Police, who says that serious attention should be given to the matter without delay. “There are grounds for believing that coloured, native and the more ignorant section of the European population will receive a larger amount of communistic attention in future and this will promote unrest. An efficient intelligence system is necessary.” We who come from native sections of the country are better able to judge of the effect of this propaganda among the natives than those who are living in Johannesburg. I assure the Minister this is a matter which deserves the attention of the Government. We find it going on in every kraal of the country. I would like to ask the Minister whether he will establish this special branch.

I have not the slightest intention of establishing the special branch of intelligence. The hon. member spoke about the allowance to people travelling with prisoners and said it was too little. I may say a police officer is always entitled to get his out-of-pocket expenses instead of the fixed allowance. So he is not under any disability.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he will see that proper investigation is made into the propaganda which creates class hatred and which is being carried on by a certain institution on the Witwatersrand known as the Chamber of Mines. I would call the attention of the Minister to a certain statement issued in a paper financed by the Chamber of Mines known as “Muteteli Wa Bantu.” I note an article which deserves the attention of the Minister. It is headed “More Class Justice.” It goes on to say: “A native was recently arrested at Krugersdorp for stock theft confessed his crime and implicated a white man. It was proved that this white man had bought cattle from the native who stole them, well knowing them to be stolen, and immediately slaughtered them and disposed of the carcases to butchers and compounds. The white man and the native were partners in crime, and there is little doubt that the white man was the senior and more responsible partner. But the native was sentenced to twenty months’ imprisonment with hard labour and lashes, while the white man was merely fined.” This is a document issued with the financial support of the Chamber of Mines. If there is anything in the nature of class propaganda in this country I would like to see a worse example of it. I hope an investigation will be made to ascertain to what extent the propaganda carried on by the Chamber of Mines is responsible for this stirring up of class hatred. Might I also draw the Minister’s attention to another matter and that is something which took place a few weeks ago at the Ermelo colliery works where a new method of coal cutting was being introduced to which the natives objected. As a result of their objection the trouble was quelled, with the assistance of the police, who arrested 13 of the natives. Later nine of the strikers were fined £10 or two months—the maximum penalty. Eight others were punished with lighter penalties from £5 or a month downwards. I hope the Minister will be in a position to inform us under what law these men were punished and what offence they had committed in refusing to carry out a different class of work to that which they were engaged to do. They had contracted to do one particular kind of work and then were told that they must do something else.

May I ask the Minister whether he attaches so little importance to the commission’s report that he does not propose to follow the recommendations.

When the Minister replies will he inform us whether finger prints of all those concerned with the 1922 riots in Johannesburg were taken?

The Minister has just brought something to my mind which I promised to raise in this House. I am going to ask the Minister whether he is prepared to give an undertaking that all the finger prints which have been taken of myself and others who were put in gaol in connection with agitating activities—

Mine too.

That all these finger prints should be destroyed. I think mine were taken three times. The point is this, that many men who have been arrested in this country and put into prison in the past were so arrested because we had not sufficient statesmen in the country to rule the country without rushing to the gun. We have had many men put into gaol without rhyme or reason and against whom no charge has ever been raised. I have never been charged and yet my finger prints were taken three times. For myself I do not care whether they are destroyed or not, but there are many men on the Witwatersrand who feel very deeply on this matter and object strongly to their finger prints being kept when they have never been convicted.

I am afraid the hon. member should have brought this up on a previous vote, Prisons.

I want to put it to you, Mr. Chairman, that it is the police who catch these men and the police who take the finger prints and that it is all in connection with the police records and activities.

I have already answered a question of that nature, and I said that only the finger-prints of people who have been convicted of serious offences were being kept. There is no point in keeping the others. I was dealing specially with events in 1922 when I made that answer. With regard to the Intelligence Vote, the reason why I declined the request that the money should not be voted to the Intelligence Department of the Police is that if any person knows something of this kind he should bring it to the notice of the police. My trouble is that I cannot get specific cases or instances of this matter that can be investigated. Surely if there is some stirring up, there must be some people who are doing the stirring up, and surely these people have names. I do not believe that there is much agitation of this nature, but because there is always a danger, the police are taking special steps.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 19, “Defence,” £981,743,

I would like to know why an increase of £46,481 is asked for on this item, as it seems a very large sum. The country has given the Government a clear mandate to economize on defence. I see no reason why we should spend so much money in this way, seeing that there are no dangers threatening our borders. It is a disgrace for this country to spend such a big sum on defence, whilst many of our children wander about for lack of education. The amount should be reduced next year, and we ought to return to the old commando system of the Transvaal and Free State. It was efficient in those provinces, so much so, that it enabled them to keep Great Britain at bay. A country which is not willing to defend itself is not worth the name of nation, but it appears to me that money is wasted in this department.

A good deal was said in the election, particularly by the hon. Minister of Justice, about the money we are spending on defence, and I am sorry the hon. Minister has gone out of the House. He said that the money spent on Defence should be considerably reduced, and I see at Potchefstroom, when the hon. Minister of Defence was present, the hon. Minister of Justice urged that the country was not getting value for its money to-day and was being sucked dry. He advocated that they should get value for their money, and that the Defence Department should be something more than a name. I do not mind confessing that I have a good bit of sympathy with a reduction in this vote, and I think it could be done if the department were reorganized. What is the hon. Minister’s policy going to be with regard to the Defence Department, because if he now states what his policy is, it will obviate a good deal of discussion. I think we are entitled to know whether the policy advocated by the hon. Minister of Justice is going to be carried out. Are we going to have a reduction of the vote on Defence and the reorganization of the Defence Force? I do not think the hon. Minister can plead a want of time on this matter at any rate, and he must have made up his mind by this time, seeing that the matter was dealt with so frequently in the election campaign.

I am very pleased to follow the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger), and I think that the hon. Minister of Defence should give us a clear statement of what he is going to do in the future; he should state whether he is going to include in the Defence Vote the expenditure borne by the Railway Department on its defence force under, and controlled by, that department. I believe that the Railway Department bears the whole cost of the upkeep of the different units embodied by the Railways and Harbours Regiment, bands and so forth. If the hon. Minister does not make an alteration, we may at some future date have artillery in the department of Posts and Telegraphs, and the Minister as an officer.

No.

It is just as feasible as the other. I see some hon. members smile, but what is the difference between the Posts and Telegraphs department running artillery and the Railways and Harbours having a regiment of its own? I ask the hon. Minister of Defence whether he will not assist a little in the reduction of railway rates by taking over the cost and the responsibility of any military force in the Railway Department. Trusting all expenditure for Defence purposes will be borne by the Defence Department.

I wish to submit to the hon. the Minister for his consideration the position of part-time adjutants. We have in the different regiments adjutants acting who give their full time, and perhaps more time than they can afford; but nothing is being paid to them. Adjutants in the Railway Regiment are being paid £200 per annum, I understand. Before the war all our adjutants were paid at the rate of £240 per annum, but during the war everyone in uniform was on active service, and that special pay was dropped. These men have to give two or three evenings every week to their work, and also many Saturday afternoons are spent in musketry exercises. New recruits are being posted to various units and the work is arduous. Adjutants are responsible for the training of recruits and of young officers, and if the services of these good citizens are to be retained they must be better treated.

The country takes a great interest in the Defence Department. The training camps have caused many parents in the country painful experience with their sons, because the latter were taken away at the early age of 21 years and placed under the bad influences of the towns. Parents do not want to evade their duties regarding the training of their children for the defence of the country, but we absolutely refuse to allow those camps to lower our standard of ethics. Surely there is no military reason why these camps should be near the towns. I am emphasizing the matter because in the past we have seen so many instances of the morals of our boys being corrupted in this way. They ought to be trained in the environment in which they grow up, preferably in their own districts. If that is not done the parents will refuse to send their boys to the camps. If I know that the whole education of my children is to be spoiled by a short training of two months in camp, I shall rather place myself into the hands of the police than expose my children. I hope the Minister will give his attention to this. I would also like to point out that these camps are often held at inconvenient times when there is very urgent work on the farms. The dates for the camps should be fixed at times when there is not so much work. The urban population can more easily adapt itself to the convenience of the rural population.

Allusions have been made as to the extravagance of the Defence Force vote, the expenditure upon which has increased from £935,000 last year, to £981,000 this year, an increase roughly of 5 per cent. But I am not in a position to say whether there has been an increase of 5 per cent. in the efficiency of the force. Last year I called attention to some points on which I considered there was room for improvement in the control, management and training of this force. Before we can say whether there is extravagance we have to decide whether we need the force, and whether we are getting value for the large amount of money spent on it. I hope the Minister of Defence will give us a clear definition of what the objects of the force are, and how he proposes to effect those objects. I do not propose to go over the same ground that I covered last year, and to save the Minister trouble, I am quite prepared to give him the notes of my speech last year. Unfortunately, the matters to which I took exception last year remain practically unaltered. One of the first points that strike one is the relative cost of the administration of our force with that of corresponding forces in other parts of the world. Another point that will strike the Minister is that a trained citizen soldier here costs something like five times more than the expenditure in training his comrade in any of the Dominions.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 8.7 p.m.

There are a few more matters which the hon. Minister might explain when he replies. For instance one is struck first of all with the very small number of trained men produced as a result of this million of expenditure. If hon. members will turn to page 213 of the Annual Departmental Reports of the Department of Defence, they will see the figures for the last date for which they are available. We find, excluding the Permanent Force, that the total number of citizen troops who have received training is 1,450 officers and 6,861 others—roughly one officer to every five other ranks; a very remarkable proportion. It is true there is a reserve of officers and then Class A Reserve of 26,751 also untrained; simply names. It is a little bit misleading to put these numbers as part of the strength of the Union Defence Force. Their only connection with the Defence Force is that their names have been recorded. The staff required to run this citizen army of 8,000 odd men amounts to formidable numbers—administration, 144 Europeans; quarter-masters’ department, 268 Europeans and 274 natives; medical services, 71 Europeans and 53 natives. For the military education of this force there are 36 Europeans and 33 natives and a district staff of altogether 285 of all ranks. So, in round numbers, we have for the staffing and instructing of this force of 8,000 odd, 804 Europeans and 505 natives. That is a scale unprecedented in the military arrangements of any country I am acquainted with. The cost of this is enormous. We find that A. B. and C. alone—i.e., the administration, the quarter-master-general’s department and the medical services—absorb no less than £190,033 as their share of the total vote—roughly one-fifth of the whole. That is a very large proportion indeed. One would like to warn the Minister—and in my remarks I do not hold him responsible—of the incongruity of these enormous staffs centred at these headquarters. There is the danger of their becoming an administrative jungle, rather preventing progress than assisting it. We find that the citizen force is absolutely starved in the most essential part of its training, that is continuous training in camp followed by manoeuvres. That, to my mind, is the most important portion of the training of the citizen soldier. True there is an amount of continuous instruction throughout the year, but that is chiefly drill instruction and leaves the citizen soldier short of the knowledge and field experience he should have. I think this training matter is one on which we should have clear and definite views. First of all I hope the Minister when he replies will state exactly what the object or function of the Defence Force is, what is the reason for its existence. Naturally, the country demands to know when it is asked to vote a million sterling every year, what is to be attained by that expenditure. Are we spending this money in the best possible way and getting the value we have a right to expect? I do not want to carry it further, as I did last year, into a detailed comparison with other countries. The figures I will make available for the Minister if he wishes. The main fact remains that the South African trained soldier costs many more times the amount the similar article costs in New Zealand, Australia or Canada. There are no particular reasons here why that expense should be so much greater.

I do not think we get value for our money spent on this department. It is believed that for a small population such as ours we spend far too much. We should rather try to make the rifle associations more popular, as the farmers know very well how to handle a gun, but the stumbling block has been the unpopularity of the officers. Being a democratic people, we would like to select our own officers. Another important matter is the training camps, where boys are misled and corrupted because they are taken to surroundings with dangers with which they are not acquainted. The training camps ought to be shorter and ought to be further away from the big towns. In this view I am supported by the whole country. As a father it is hard for me to send my boy to the camp with the possibility of his morals being corrupted there. Each citizen ought to be supplied gratis with a rifle and cartridges, and the rifle associations ought to be placed under the command of officers in whom the public have confidence. The rifle associations exist for the purpose of defending the country in times of danger, and the burghers will go anywhere if they have confidence in their leaders. Great economies can be effected if we return to the simpler republican system, and besides, it will be more efficient.

It is strange that a man should be afraid of sending his big son to the training camp. Logically he should be afraid of sending him to the university, as he is exposed to the same temptations in that institution. South African boys are not so weak: they can hold their own under temptation, and we should not coddle them. I admit that the Defence Force costs a lot of money, but hon. members should bear in mind that we have practically three forces, namely, the land force, the air force and the marine force. It is all good and well to economize, but we should remember that adequate provision should be made.

What about the rifle clubs?

Did not the leaders of the Nationalist party advise the burghers not to join the rifle clubs?

All the officers are supporters of the S.A.P.

The Nationalist party always alleges that persons appointed by the Government are supporters of the S.A.P. What would hon. members say if we alleged that all those appointed are Nationalists? If people joined the rifle clubs they could easily get rifles for training, but I am convinced that such clubs are not enough for training our people to be good soldiers. During the Anglo-Boer war I saw that the officers and men of the State artillery fought much better than the burghers, because they were better disciplined and then I came to the conclusion that it would be necessary for the future to train the burghers thoroughly, so that they would not argue with their officers when they had to carry out orders. I cannot understand how people now want to return to the old primitive system, as that will never do for these times. It is quite wrong to have officers appointed by people under their command, as officers often have to give very stringent orders, and it is obvious that military organization will be useless when officers try to get into the favour of the men in order to be re-elected. Military organization is not Parliamentary business. It has been asked why we keep a Defence Force, but one never knows what is going to happen. It may even be that the present Minister will get into trouble.

He will not immediately resort to shooting.

The Minister of Agriculture, I see, is looking hard at me. Yes, he knows how easily things go wrong. The Minister and I signed the oath of allegiance together, and we all know what strange things have happened since. If we want to make a success of the rifle clubs we ought to put them under the command of a man who is a good soldier.

A good election agent.

Yes, you will still require his services. That is only the old election story. We ought to have a good officer at the head of the rifle club. A man who knows all about the field service, one who can give orders and see that his orders are carried out.

I would like to say a few words about the tragic accident at Kuruman. I take a great interest in the defence of this country. Military reviews are necessary, but the burghers have become so scared that they ask whether there will be aeroplanes present, and if the reply is in the affirmative, they do not go. When military reviews are being held, the aeroplanes should only carry dummy bombs. I hope in future there will be better supervision in this respect. Every man ought to be able to defend his country, consequently he ought to be able to shoot, and should join a rifle association. The defence of the country should be something above party politics, because the political views of an officer have nothing to do with the question whether he is a good officer. My constituency is well organized. The costs of the defence force have increased considerably, but the item for ammunition for rifle clubs has been reduced by £3,000. That is wrong and the country looks upon it as a grievance. We will do the country a great service by doing away with the training camps altogether. The people in the country do not even like to talk of sending their sons to these camps. The boy should have an opportunity of joining a rifle association, and then he will not be in danger of having his morals corrupted.

I hope a thorough enquiry will take place into what reforms may be made in regard to the Defence Force. I was amazed to find the seething discontent right through that arm of the service stationed at Roberts Heights, and I feel that something must be wrong if the Defence Force is given over to absolute discontent, which means the worst possible inefficiency and bad service for the immense amount spent upon it. I am not competent to give a professional opinion as regards this force, as the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) can; but as a South African, with a general knowledge, I can only express the utmost dissatisfaction and regret that we should have a force so thoroughly impregnated with discontent that it is perfectly apparent that there is something wrong. I commiserate the hon. Minister of Defence at having to inherit such a totally disreputable state of things as exists in his department; and had he known what he had to face, he would probably have thought twice before accepting the responsibility of his office. I realize that only a man of very great determination could put right that service. It is not merely rotten; it is putrid; a reflection on the last Minister who managed, or rather mismanaged, it. I trust an enquiry will be made as early as possible during the recess. One Minister at least of the last Government seriously neglected the portfolio committed to his charge. I do not know what other Ministers have to face in their departments, but the department of Defence will require a good deal of stern determination to put things light. Without referring to matters which are sub judice and cannot therefore be dealt with outside the law courts, there is no doubt whatever that the whole of Roberts Heights wants a very great deal of close attention to get things right from a moral as well as from the military point of view. As regards promotions and appointments, a promise was definitely made to the whole of the Defence Force by the late Gen. Beyers and by the former Prime Minister (Gen. Smuts) that promotion would be made from the ranks. That official promise ought to have been kept. If you want to have a force proud of itself the principle should be maintained that every private has the possibility of promotion, and then you will get what obtained in the old C.M.R. force, of which we were all so proud—that privates could enjoy the hope of becoming officers. Three of them rose from the ranks to command that regiment, and it is the maintenance of the principle which we shall strive for in respect to the entire force. One need not worry about the promises of the late Prime Minister—he was famous for making them. Eighteen officers have been selected—they were not promoted from the ranks, but were taken from outside and imposed on the Defence Force. We can understand the feelings of the men who were working for promotion—tried soldiers. If this state of affairs is continued we shall never have a Defence Force worth anything at all. There is no doubt there has been “a political pull” as well as favouritism. The appointments to which I have referred have not been made because of technical skill and ability, although I can understand having to go overseas for men who have been specially trained in some military technical subjects. The hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) has shown what a large number of officers there are compared with men. We have a school which is now training twenty more men for commissions, and many of these have had no experience whatever of soldiering—they are civilian youths, mostly related to members of Parliament or to politicians with influence.

I deprecate the remarks from members of the Government favouring the abolition of the force which has taken so much time and money to build up. This force has not only been inaugurated for use in time of danger, but it is an honour to the country. The hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) has mentioned a number of names of persons having a history behind them. That hon. member ought to be ashamed to mention those names. I hope the Minister will not accept the advice of the hon. member for Piquetberg (Mr. de Waal) advocating the abolition of training camps, because these camps are good. The camp at Pothchefstroom under the present Minister of Agriculture certainly seemed to give satisfaction. In these camps the characters of our boys are formed. They are trained in shooting and horsemanship, and they learn to respect their elders. It seems that it is the intention of the Nationalist party to inculcate its own spirit in the youth of the country. As it is, there is lack of discipline amongst the young, and this state of things ought to be changed, and there is no better training for this purpose than the camps. To-day our boys have no opportunity for learning to shoot, and most of them know nothing at all about a rifle. More ought to be spent on these camps. Our boys ought to have an opportunity of learning to ride, because at present many boys cannot ride properly and do not even know from what side to mount a horse. Only the boys of the high veld learn how to ride, but in the whole of the Western Transvaal there is hardly a single farmer’s son who can ride properly. The rifle clubs are good, and every boy who has been to the training camps ought to become a member of one of them. At present there is no discipline in the rifle clubs, but discipline can only be learnt in the camps. As a soldier who has been through many campaigns, I am convinced that you can do nothing with burghers who have not had a good training. The burgher commandoes are good, but they are uncontrollable. It is incorrect to say that the morals of our boys are corrupted at these camps. The hon. member for Heilbron (Mr. M. L. Malan) presumably never was in a camp where things were conducted properly. I admit, however, that the camps should not be held near the towns. There is quite enough room in the country. The hon. member for Bechuanaland (Mr. Raubenheimer) made some regrettable insinuations in connection with the aeroplane disaster at Kuruman.

He made no insinuations.

*Lt.-Col N. J. PRETORIUS; Yes, he insinuated that an aeroplane was sent to Kuruman which killed 30 people.

I agree with the hon. member for Witwatersberg (Lt.-Col. N. J. Pretorius) that most of the persons whose names were mentioned by the hon. member have a history. Why were they appointed, and not men like Dempers, Jordaan, Macfarlane, Hearn and others who served as officers in the war? The persons who have been mentioned have been appointed for political reasons or because they were relatives of officers.

That is not true.

I hope the Government will accept the motion of the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) and will appoint a commission to investigate the Defence Force and the appointment of officers and also the incident referred to by the hon. member. The commission should not consist of officers only, as such a commission would not be impartial. The Nationalist party is severely attacked by the S.A.P. because the former propose a curtailment of the Defence Force, and it is not surprising to see that the Defence Force is a good political weapon for the S.A.P. The reorganization of the Defence Force will kill the S.A.P. in the country. That is what the S.A.P. fears. In the Free State all the S.A.P. candidates were commandants.

Well, appoint Nationalists.

No, we are not going to do that, because we want officers and not office-seekers. Examinations are now being held, and I can predict which relatives of officers will become officers out of the 20 candidates. To-day the non-commissioned officers are put off with nice phrases, although they had been promised promotion. Now they are being told that the matriculation certificate is one of the requirements for becoming an officer, but I maintain that that is done only to leave out the non-commissioned officers and men. The S.A.P. defends the Defence Force. According to the examination papers, only 75 per cent. of the 450 marks are allocated to Afrikaans, which is practically a dead letter. A certain colonel who deserted because they did not do justice to Afrikaans, was not punished because his superiors knew that he was right. It has been said that only suitable people were appointed, but I know of a case in my district where a man was dismissed by the Minister of Agriculture because he was incapable, but now he is a commandant in the Defence Force. Can we expect people to respect him? That does not only happen in my district. I am sure if the Minister institutes an enquiry regarding the Defence Force, strange things will come to light. We spend more than a million pounds on the Defence Force and more than two millions on the police, and our white population is only 11/2 millions. We ought to save at least a quarter of a million on this item.

I have felt it my duty for some three or four years past to direct attention to Defence Force matters. In doing so I have endeavoured to keep clear of party considerations and to avoid personal references, except when absolutely necessary, to illustrate the argument. My feeling was, and I hope it will be appreciated by hon. members, that the defence of our country is too big a matter to be used for any political advantage. I probably criticized this vote more severely when I was supporting the party in power than I have done to-day. If I may say so, there is a flavour of the recent election about some of the speeches we have been listening to. It is a very big question and should engage our earnest attention. I doubt if there is a single member of this House who is satisfied with things as they are. We have to take stock of the world as it is. The war that ended five years ago has by no means ended war. I wonder how many members are aware that at this moment there are more men under arms in Europe than there were in 1914? There is another fact not generally appreciated. There are eight nations of Europe with their armies on a war footing to-day. In these days of world-wide financial stringency nations do not go to the trouble and expense of doing that unless they expect or fear they will have to make some use of the forces they are keeping ready for the field at such large expense. There are apparently more causes for war in the world to-day than at any time during the last 100 years. Those causes are largely due to the alteration of national boundaries following the Great War. Nations that have lost territory are sore, and hope to get it back; those whose boundaries have been enlarged do not consider they have got enough. There is an even greater cause of danger; and that unfortunately is due to the fact that the people who have to engage in war, the young men in Europe, no longer dread war; and the reason is even sadder still: it is because they are hungry. They do not fear war. As soldiers they know they will be well fed and well clothed, which they are not now. How does that affect us? I hope we shall not be engaged in hostilities, but the world is getting smaller, and when hostilities break out, who can say that we shall not be affected? I think the arguments about rifle clubs, appointments, and so forth, important as they are in themselves, should fall into their due proportion perspective. There is now a party in power having the means to put our Defence Force in better shape. I am sure if they attempt it they will get wholehearted support all round, and if the Defence Department is put into better order I am confident these details will be apt to adjust themselves. I hope therefore we shall not draw attention away and obscure the real problems by side issues. It is sometimes forgotten how terrible war may be. I will give you an instance. In 1922 there was a small force of British troops under Gen. Harrington in Asia Minor: after the French withdrawal they were faced by hordes of Turks who did not attack, although they were ten or twenty to one. The British force were provided with a poison gas which no mask could withstand and the Turks had not a mask between them. In future wars all armies will be provided with poison gas, and civilians in the towns will not be immune. We are a small community with limited resources, and we should see that such money as we allot for our Defence Force is not wasted but expended in the proper way. I will read a striking extract from a text-book appointed by the War Office in England for the examination of officers for promotion. It says: “It is not beyond possibility that Japan, as protagonist of the Asiatic races, may some time desire to champion the cause of Asiatic labour, including that of Indian labour. Military problems of the Dominions over-sea in the not far distant future will be much greater than they are to-day.” That should make us thoughtful. Again, another authority finds an analogy between the situation of the Dominions and the Roman Empire when the northern tribes were gathering on the frontier In the early centuries of the Christian era. Happily, we are at peace and we want to remain at peace. One of the best ways of doing that is not to offer too tempting a chance to those who would disturb the peaceful progress of South Africa.

There seems to be a great divergence of opinion as to the advantage of training camps. I do not want to go into the matter, but the fact remains that the Defence Force costs us nearly a million pounds per annum. The great question is: Do we get value for our money? And if we look about us, we must admit that we do not, and it is a great burden to the country. We have a small population, and we pay heavy taxes and we cannot afford a million pounds for that department. As there is peace now and military preparedness is not so urgent we should try to economize as much as possible on military organization. We can do so in various ways. In the old Free State Republic there was a small artillery unit where boys went for training, and then went home again. During the war that battalion made a name for itself, although there was not a standing force. That is a system we should adopt here, for it is quite unnecessary to keep such a large force of officers and men as at present. I would also suggest amalgamating the Defence Force and the police, as great economies can be effected in that way. We shall have to spend large sums of money from time to time to equip our air force efficiently. There are camps under some officers where things are in good order, but some are lacking in their duty, and the boys are being spoilt. If we have any more camps, all the time of the youngsters should be taken up by the work of training. We ought to be able to economize a great deal on that item. There were officers who adopted such an offensive, attitude during the rebellion and made themselves disliked so much that people do not want to join, and although I have advised them to join up, they do not want to be commanded by those officers.

I wish to endorse all that the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) and the hon. member for Cape Town (Harbour) (Maj. van Zyl) have said as to the necessity for paying the adjutants properly. The adjutant is the chief officer if you are going to have a good regiment. A number of members opposite seem frightened of camps. I do not know why. I have served some time in camps myself. I do not favour very large camps. I think if you start with squadron camps until the men have been used to camp life and then have regimental camps and gradually go on to brigade camps every five years, that is all you require. I have always looked upon a camp as a means of education for young men from the back-veld, and we have a back-veld in Natal just the same as in the Free State and the Transvaal. In 1914, I had just taken over the command of the Natal Mounted Rifles and the Border Rifles. The two were amalgamated on July 1st, 1914. On August 9th I was mobilized for war, and was mobilized until the 23rd December. On the 9th February I mobilized again at Harrismith for German South-West Africa, and of 607 young men I had six Dutchmen, amongst whom were three famous names—Maritz, De Wet and Wessels. Wessels went with us to German South-West, and had the happiest time of his life, which shows that a young Dutchman does not fear discipline, and prefers a strict regiment to the looseness of the commando. Although I had been pretty hard on him, he bore me no grudge. Once a young Dutchman gets over his first fear of discipline, he makes a jolly good soldier, and that has been my experience. I think if the hon. Minister of Defence will take my advice he will start small squadron camps first and go on to regimental. Everything depends on your officers, but they want training. You have grand material. Discipline is the first thing, discipline is the second thing, and discipline is the third and last thing.

We are all heroes in times of peace, but in time of war it is a different story. I am not against military training, but I would like to point out that the people in the country are very much against the training camps being held in the vicinity of the large towns. There is much dissatisfaction in the country regarding the rifle clubs, and this is not due to the Nationalist party but to the S.A.P. The gentleman who was my opponent in the election was given the command over 800 Nationalists, and he held four other posts. The whole existing organization should be done away with, and the people allowed to elect their own officers and be provided with rifles and ammunition. The previous Minister promised all the rifles and cartridges that were needed, but there have been cases where there were only three rifles for 70 men. The people want to train themselves for the defence of their country, but there have been too many political appointments in the rifle clubs and the standing force. I have every confidence in the new Minister, and I would suggest to him to go to the country and, in consultation with the people, bring about a change for the better.

I would just like to supplement the remarks I made the other day with regard to subsidizing civil aviation. If we were to retain the one service squadron as shown in the Estimates but increase it slightly so that it could be self-contained, and thus be able to carry on its own basis, and devote the balance of expenditure towards developing the mail service between Pretoria and Cape Town and Pretoria and Durban, it would be of great benefit and value to this country. First of all we would have aerodromes situated at all the strategic points of the Union—Johannesburg, Pretoria, Bloemfontein, Kimberley, Beaufort West and Cape Town on the main line; and Pretoria, Johannesburg, Newcastle and Durban on the route to the coast. We have aerodromes there to-day, but they are not constantly used, and if you were developing your mail service they would be in use every day, thereby being fully equipped. In addition, you would have the value in keeping your pilots continually flying. To-day they do a certain amount of flying; but they are not getting the value of continual cross-country flying. Furthermore, the machines used in maintaining such services could be easily converted for all purposes of defence for which we would require them in this country. It is well worthy of the consideration of the Government. I put forward the suggestion, not only in the interests of defence, but also in the interests of commerce.

We ought to have our Defence Force thoroughly up to date and ready for any emergency in this country. An injustice existing is that a certain number of sergeant-majors who were thought to be good enough to be commissioned officers in the late war found that such services were no longer required when war was over, and were not able to get the positions which they had filled with such credit during the war. It is most unfair; and now we see regulations which prevent their ever getting commissions. Young men are chosen as officers from the universities and elsewhere in a cadet system of training and they are afterwards put over experienced men who had to train them. There can never be contentment in the Defence Force if these selections are made from outside. Political influence has been used. Beyond all question of doubt a letter can be produced from the late Prime Minister, the present hon. member for Standerton (Gen. Smuts). thanking an officer of the Defence Force for political services. That a Prime Minister can write a letter of thanks like that is, I think, the limit of political decadence, and I trust that under the new regime we shall never hear of anything so disgraceful.

You are an optimist.

We have perfect confidence in the hon. Minister of Defence and in his determination, ability and integrity; but we want an assurance, on behalf of the men who have suffered and had to keep silence while they were passed by because they were supposed to belong to a particular party, that there is going to be the fullest and amplest enquiry, and that every man, from drummer boy upwards, will have an opportunity of putting his case and expressing his grievances, so that we shall start fair. We, in this part of the House, also insist on the recognition of the principle of promotion from the ranks.

I do not know what the position is elsewhere, but I want to tell the hon. Minister that, as far as the Transvaal is concerned, you must not run away with the idea that it does not want the Defence Force at all, because we do want it, but what you want is the confidence of the people and that the people can really support it, and that is not the case with the present one. There are many reasons why the public outside do not support the present Defence Force as constituted to-day. We also want a Government to trust its own Defence Force. That never happened in the past. The late hon. Minister of Defence refused a request that the burghers of the State should be armed, because he feared that he would have everybody running about the streets with revolvers and men running about the countryside with guns and shooting their neighbours. If the Government does not trust its public, you cannot possibly have a Defence Force which you can trust. As long as you have a Minister of Defence who does not trust the public and the burghers who are the men on whom you have ultimately to rely for the defence of the country, you will never form a Defence Force worth having.

What about the men in the towns?

In the towns they would not trust them at all, because they were afraid of another revolution—they were afraid of all these Bolsheviks on the Labour benches. (Laughter.) What a warlike crowd! (Renewed laughter.) It is that same spirit that has led to the Defence Force being a failure. In the Western Transvaal you could not get the burghers to join the rifle associations.

You advised them not to.

Yes, because almost 90 per cent. of the officers were appointed for purely political purposes. The men did not trust their officers who were nothing else but South African Party propagandists. In my district if a man has not been in gaol he has been shot. (Laughter.) They are soldiers and farmers and very poor farmers too. (Renewed laughter.) It is typical for the Opposition side of the House to laugh at poverty.

Your side is laughing as well.

In the Western Transvaal the farmers are poor, but they are good burghers ready to do their duty at any time provided they have a Government and officers they can trust. (To the Minister of Defence): Be a Minister who is open to the burghers at any time they want to see you; don’t run away with the idea that you must be a military head of the Defence Force—you are not.

Order, will the hon. member address the Chair.

I assure the hon. member who has just spoken that I am the civil head of the Defence Department. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) made a very insistent demand for a declaration of policy. I am surprised at his alluding to the Defence Force figuring in the election campaign. My recollection is that it chiefly figured in the speeches of the hon. member and his friends, who inferred that the Defence Department would be the pivot round which would turn some dark conspiracy for the carrying out of a coup d’etat. I can tell them that that idea existed only in their imagination. I know many a poor man belonging to my side of the population who was scared terribly during the elections with the fearful things that were going to happen when the Defence Force came under the control of this side of the House. Let me assure the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) that he can sleep perfectly calmly in his bed—there is not the slightest chance of his being awakened and his house surrounded by a portion of the force. I am not going to be hustled. The hon. member must get out of his head the idea that he and his friends are governing the country. It is for us to declare what is our policy whenever we please. We are going to do it in our own time, and we shall take the House and the country into our confidence as we think fit and at such time as we think fit. I want to answer the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron). The first question I asked when I entered my department was: “Is there any document in which there is a real study of the possible dangers that may confront the country and the idea for which the Defence Force was organized?” I found there was nothing of the kind in existence and apparently that aspect has never been gone into. The idea of our Defence Act was not to meet any particular dangers, but that we should have a small striking force and that over and above that the whole youth of the country should be trained to arms. That is the policy which the Defence Act lays down, and that is the policy I am carrying on at present. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) also spoke of the extravagance of the Defence Force, but these are the Estimates we inherited from the late Government. The only change I felt justified in making until I have gone into the matter much more thoroughly is in the Loan Estimates, in which I have eliminated £146.000—Standard stock account which was required in order to put into the field 25,000 men. When hon. members point out the extra cost in these Estimates as compared with last year it is very largely a question of a book entry. Twenty-five thousand pounds are for services transferred from the Public Works and £8,000 for services transferred from the Posts and Telegraphs. The other £10,000 represents an extra flight for the air force. I am quite aware that the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) will be only too delighted if we were to make all sorts of changes without a real study of the whole subject, so that the Opposition would have plenty of very good solid bricks to throw at us. I was much struck by the criticisms of the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron). I wish to deal very briefly with the question we have to decide. It is: Are we going to carry out the policy of the Defence Act, that is to say, really train the whole of our people to arms, or are we going to train a portion only of them and to rely on very slightly-trained material which, in case of alarm, could be worked up and trained in a comparatively short time? I am not, however, going to make a pronouncement on that point to-night. I am going into the matter and consulting the authorities. There is no denying that so long as the navy secures our shores and makes attack from the outside almost impossible, what we require for our own requirements is a force to guard against a casual raid or some trouble which may come to us from the north. But one thing is clear—that there is a very strong feeling abroad that in our present circumstances we cannot afford to be spending one penny more than is wise on defence. We have to consider whether we can go on with such a big machine when other means will secure what we desire. The hon. member for Albert (Mr. Steytler) asked me to reduce this Vote next year. I want to do it, and I hope to be able to do it, but we cannot reduce this Vote and carry out fully the obligations placed on us to train half the youth of the country in training camps. As to the point raised by the hon. member for Liesbeek (Mr. Pearce), I am discussing that with the Minister of Railways. With reference to the remark of the hon. member for Cape Town (Harbour) (Maj. van Zyl), I can hold out very little hope that we shall increase our expenditure in regard to pay of adjutants. Several hon. members have spoken of the desirability of not having training camps in the neighbourhood of big towns. I do not see any reason whatever why these camps should not be as far away from big towns as you like. The only requisites for a camp site are tents. There should be convenient access to the railway and a good water supply. I agree that we should take the greatest care to prevent young men getting among demoralising surroundings. As to camps not being held during seasons when young men are wanted on the farms, as far as we can we will meet that point, but it is difficult to suit everybody. I think the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) wanted a clear definition of the aim of the Defence Force. I have answered him to the best of my ability and I think he will see that the present aim, and that in the past, has been rather without purpose. We developed our maximum military strength compatible with the allowances made by the Minister of Finance. If we are going on our present lines, training more and more young men, certainly this vote will mount up, and I think it will be wise, and I shall avail myself of all the advice I can get, to see whether our real plans are properly proportioned to the dangers we may have to meet in this country. I shall endeavour to see whether the lesson of the Great War, the fact that where you have a big population which is familiar with the rifle, you can, at all events in a measurable time, train them with fair rapidity into serviceable troops is applied. I think the hon. member will agree that is a problem which requires a considerable amount of study. I frankly express my surprise that it has not been studied by the previous Government although one understands the reason. The Defence Force was started only in 1913; in 1914 we had this tremendous earthquake and the whole conception of the Defence Force is only now settling down to the proportion in which it can suit itself to the needs of the country. I shall be very glad if the hon. member will give me the notes of his last year’s criticisms and those of the year before too. I shall pay the greatest attention to those criticisms and to all the criticisms from whatever quarter they may come. I agree with the hon. member that in these matters one wants to regard the Defence Force in the broadest and most national way one can. Even this evening, defence has been a battle-dore and shuttle-cock across the floor of the House, but when it comes to important things I can assure the House we shall be only too glad to receive criticisms and suggestions from those who are competent to make them. Now I come to the question of the Defence Rifle Associations and the very free expression of opinion in this House which only reflects what has come to me from very many quarters all over the country. I will not say all over the country because they have not come from Natal, but from the rest of the country. That is to say that in the officering of these Defence Rifle Associations there is a very great deal of discontent because it is alleged that appointments are all of one political colour. As generally does occur, if there is a small amount of fire there is a very great deal of smoke. To a great extent the present conditions complained of result from the history of the last ten or twelve years. We do want to have the officers who are best respected by those who have to serve under them. I want to deal with this matter entirely apart from mere political partisanship in such a way as to eliminate the suggestion or feeling that so and so is being changed because he is a member of the South African Party, the Nationalist party or something else. I want to arrive at a state of things whereby, in conformity with sound principle, you will have members of the rifle associations in such a position that they can indicate, within limits, how they prefer to be officered in case they are called up. I have given the matter a great deal of consideration, and have discussed it with my department, and we have arrived at what we think is the best way to deal with the matter. On looking into the whole question I find that you had commandants who had been commandants for ten or twelve years. There are commandants who are men of 60 or more. I think all hon. members will agree that if you have got to take the field you do not want old officers in command. When a man reaches the age of 55 I think it is only fair to say it is time for him to go on the reserve of officers. Also in the rifle association which is a good deal like a shooting club, it is a good thing that you shall have the chairmanship changing from time to time; not that the man who is elected chairman of a rifle association shall remain so for ever. I am laying down this, that after a man has held that position after five years he then goes on the reserve of officers. He is eligible for reappointment but he goes on the reserve. Also when he reaches 55 he can go on the reserve of officers. He is, therefore, available, but not in active command. I am also arranging that staff officers in their respective districts shall go to the rifle gatherings and I want the Rifle Associations to nominate not less than three men from whom, after reports have been made by the staff officers, the commandants shall be appointed by the Department. I believe that will ensure that you get rid entirely of the idea that there is a sort of fixity of tenure by a man of one party or another and it will also ensure that there will be a healthy change going on every five years when a new appointment is made. I am going to put that in force and I think it will commend itself to all those who have studied the subject, as making for efficiency. You will then have a certain ambition in the association—the members will know these posts are not filled for ever, and men will try to make themselves efficient. They will know that next time there is a vacancy they also will have a chance. The hon. member for Delarey (Mr. Van Hees) and some other hon. members put in a plea for every man being supplied with a rifle. I am afraid I cannot do it. I am not enamoured of every man in town and country having a rifle—a rather dangerous thing. I do not care much about it.

What about civic associations, they must have them?

I am not averse to the present rule that if a man belongs to a rifle association he can get as a member of that association a rifle at cost price, but I am not going to be a party to every man being able to possess a rifle and scattering them all over the country. The hon. member for Bechuanaland (Mr. I. Van wijk Raubenheimer) spoke about the accident with aeroplanes dropping live bombs. I can only tell him this, that instructions have been given that if aeroplanes want to do bomb-dropping they must do so with dummies. I am not going to have live bombs carried over towns, and if the Air Force requires practice with live bombs we shall take exactly the same precautions as when the artillery practises with live shells—that there is no possibility that they can drop live shells amongst a community. I am not prepared, as long as I am responsible for the defence department, to allow people to have aeroplanes dropping live bombs simply for fun, with the chance of these bombs dropping amongst people.

What about when there is a strike on?

No, I earnestly trust and earnestly pray that it will not be used against our own people. I am not going to indulge in old reminiscences, but it is common cause that whenever the Defence Force has had to be used—I do not care what the reason is—against their own people, it damages its reputation as a national institution.

What about giving provocation?

For heaven’s sake, let us avoid that provocation. Now I want to deal with the question that has been raised by the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay), the hon. member for Klerksdorp (Mr. Smit) and one or two others—that is, the question of the officering of the Defence Force. There have been allegations made—that the whole of the promotions in the Defence Force, one would imagine, are as someone once said about the Navy in times long gone by: “Favouritism tempered by jobbery.” I do not think it is fair to make in that broad and sweeping way such an allegation.

I have got proof.

If the hon. member (Mr. Hay) and the hon. member for Klerksdorp (Mr. Smit), who asked for a commission of enquiry, produce to me sufficient prima facie evidence to back up their request for an enquiry, I will consider it, and consider it favourably; but I do not want them to go away with the idea that every officer in the Defence Force owes his position to jobbery and not to talent. As to the present course which is being held for the training of cadets at the South African Military College, I have received an enormous amount of correspondence and have had representations made to me from many sources. It seems to me that there is a very great deal of misconception on the subject. I accept all responsibility for this, although the responsibility consists in having sanctioned it; the whole arrangement was cut and dried when I took office, but I could see no sufficient reason to put a stop to it, although I do wish I had deferred and delayed it until I had the time to dismiss some of the misconceptions at any rate which prevailed. The hon. member (Mr. Hay) said that a man who had received a commission during the war could not be promoted. That is not so. I have the power to promote any man inside the South African military force. He also said, and the hon. member for Klerksdorp (Mr. Smit) spoke on the subject, that we are barring the way and breaking a promise that was given that all promotion should be from the ranks. I do not know that promise was given. I have enquired, and I have not been able to find any real confirmation that the promise was given that promotion should be given exclusively to promotions from the ranks; and the position is this. We have a small permanent force, not only designed to be a striking force in case of trouble, but a stiffener to less trained forces when they are called out. That force should be of the highest efficiency—largely a force of technical arms, and for the officers of that force you do require young men to come into the junior ranks of officers having certain educational qualifications which will enable them to keep abreast of their work and of progress elsewhere.

Not soldiers?

Yes, soldiers. I am afraid I must differ from my hon. friend. They are soldiers, and will have to be made into soldiers, and our desire is to take as many men as possible from the ranks. If a man is going to make soldiering his career, and not attest merely for two or three years, and again attest for another two or three years, and if he is to keep thoroughly abreast of his position, he must start with a mind developed by a certain educational standard, but the hon. member says that these men in the ranks are barred unless they are matriculated. I assure my hon. friend that this is not so. Candidates must have matriculated or passed an examination equal to matriculation, or passed a prescribed entrance examination and must be bi-lingual. We should only be too delighted to take every officer we require out of the force. Out of the 18 men undergoing training as officers 11 are members of the force and seven are young men who have come from the universities. The system is not ideal, and I am willing to consider the position. Much as one would desire to see officers recruited from the ranks, the fact is that if you want a highly trained force you must have men as officers who have a sufficiently high standard of education to qualify them for their position. If there are sufficient facts to warrant an enquiry I am perfectly willing to take all measures that are reasonable, but I am not going to regard as a fact a whole wide range of mere assertions which, on enquiry, I may find bear a very different interpretation. If the hon. member for Klerksdorp (Mr. Smit) will call on me I will show him papers which will show there is another side to the story in respect to the incident he referred to.

I regret that the cadet system has not received the attention which it deserves, for it is the finest system that could be devised as a foundation for our Defence Force. The Natal Cadets turned out the finest shots and soldiers. The cadet system not only promoted good fellowship among the youth of the country, but esprit de corps and a healthy rivalry on the parade ground and rifle range. There is no difficulty in training cadets to become efficient soldiers, and I appeal to the Minister to give the matter of the extension of the cadet system his earnest and careful consideration.

The Minister has not replied to my question.

With regard to his complaint that equality of language rights was not carefully respected, I can only say that I am informed that this has been the practice of the department and that it is a matter which will receive my constant attention. I can assure the hon. member in regard to the question of cadets that I am perfectly aware of the value of that cadet training and I do not think he need fear that is going to be starved. I think the hon. member himself will know that the Defence Department would like to do a great many things, but it is a question of whether or not the taxpayer will pay for them. We have to cut our coats to suit our cloth.

I do not think any hon. member on this side of the House will be disposed to cavil at the caution displayed by the Minister of Defence under the circumstances. I would like to supplement some of the remarks made as to aviation. I am sure this matter deserves serious consideration. Aviation is a service that cannot be extemporized. It requires a long technical training. We know in this country that the use of aeroplanes over long distances for postal deliveries might be adopted with the same excellent results as in Australia. It may interest the Minister to know that there is a service now over 1,200 miles in Australia with 100 per cent. efficiency they claim; also another service in Queensland 570 miles; they are running from Adelaide to Sydney in eight hours instead of 42 hours by train, and they contemplate extending the service from Adelaide to Free-mantle. In my judgment you must found our air force defence on a capable civil organization. While the military portion of aviation might be described as the spear head, the shaft would be furnished by commercial aviation. There is a great distinction to be drawn between the two types of aeroplanes to be employed. Here we have great possibilities with regard to the mail service conducted by aeroplanes. There is some reason to believe the service would not be very costly. Such a service would be a convenience to the commercial community and would ensure our having a reservoir to draw upon for defence purposes when the time came. I am sure the Minister will give these matters his earnest attention. He will admit there are grave defects in the Defence Force and it has not the confidence of the country. The Minister’s problem will be, if he wants to have a Defence Force that is efficient in every way, to ensure it having the confidence of the country, he will have to make a great many changes, not necessarily in personnel, but certainly in policy. I do not think he can do better than base it on the cadet system. I hope the Minister will see my point. I am trying to draw a distinction between military training and military service. The military training does not necessarily involve military service but provides partially-trained material for the country to draw on in case of need. The changes now in war make it appear that the days when riding and shooting were the chief essentials of the efficient soldier have passed and the young man who is only trained to ride and shoot has only got a very small way to being an effective soldier. I agree that discipline is even more important than riding and shooting. If you have the discipline then you have the material ready to train according to the needs of the time.

The South African boy takes to discipline as a duck takes to water.

That is so, but you must give him a chance and give him an early training. If you have the young men of this country imbued with the sense of discipline I am quite sure when they are old enough to exercise the Parliamentary vote they will have a proper outlook towards defence. At present we are suffering from the defect that the Defence Force does not hold the confidence of the country. I think we all know the reason. But if you get that spirit, not the military spirit, but the spirit of being willing and able to render adequate service to one’s country, I think we shall have gone a long way to get rid of the drawbacks we have now. I hope the Minister will not shirk any necessary means to put the Defence Force on a proper footing and in a position in which it will have the confidence and therefore the support of the whole country.

In a recent annual report of the Defence Department the necessity for introducing an Arms and Ammunition Act was referred to and I should like the Minister to let us know whether it is his intention to introduce such an Act at an early date. It seems to me that one of the main economies that could be effected in the Defence Force without much loss of efficiency, would be in connection with the Standard Stock Account. Some little time ago this stock stood at the value of about £1,000,000, I think. It was an enormous amount to be bound up in standard stock and stores, and I hope the hon. Minister will give some attention to the desirability of economising on this account now that we are in peace times. A further economy should be effected, in doing away with one of the two separate stores departments that exist in connection with the Defence Force and the police. On the present estimates I see that provision is made to the extent of £6,900, for a training depot to handle only 30 recruits, and it handled an average of only 50 for the past few years, at a cost of £138 per head, whereas officers competent to speak on this question have stated that it would be more satisfactory to pass these recruits on to the units in which they are to serve for training. I was one of those who had hoped that the hon. Minister could be approached with confidence with regard to cases of hardship inevitable in regard to the liquidation of matters relating to the war. I have been disappointed in regard to a case of extreme hardship I brought to the attention of the hon. Minister not long ago—that of a South African, who went overseas with the South African Expeditionary Force and rendered distinguished service, but had to pay his passage back to his own country. The hon. Minister expressed his regret at not being able to accept liability on the part of the Union Government in respect of the refund of the passage money. “If this officer has any claim,” he added, “it is against the Imperial Government.” This man went to Europe in 1915 as a private, and in 1918 went as an officer to the Caucasus on a secret mission, and later on went to Mesopotamia and Persia where he served from 1919 to 1921. Later, he returned to England, and applied for repatriation to South Africa; but was told that the date for repatriation having gone by, it was not competent for the High Commissioner to arrange for his repatriation. Finally he, a married man, and in broken health as a result of having had typhus whilst on active service, was obliged to pay his own passage back. I would ask the hon. Minister if he would approach the Imperial Government and use the weight of his influence to recover what, to my mind, is due to this man.

The Minister of Defence should not listen to all the advice coming from S.A.P. members. The recommendations of the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) means the continuance of the military ideal which he has so successfully cherished. What, however, has been the fruit of it. He himself said that there were bigger armies in Europe to-day than before the war. We always heard that it was the aim of the Great War to kill militarism; but they only created what they tried to destroy. Is that an ideal to hold up to our virile young nation? No, what we should hold up to them is the ideal of goodwill to all men. The hon. member for Witwatersburg (Lt.-Col. N. J. Pretorius) said that the officers whose names had been mentioned could well be proud of their past. There was a certain officer in the district of Christiana, a brigadier-general in khaki, who whilst present at a military review, and while he was there he received instructions from the Prime Minister to induce the S.A.P. candidate, who was already nominated, to withdraw and to put up as an independent candidate in order to cause division. Fortunately he did not succeed. I hope the promise of payments to anti-Nationalist candidates will be stopped. What must not happen is this. That documents are written promising that money shall be paid to candidates opposing Nationalists, and that a high official shall then write under it: “I agree to this.” The Minister ought to give his attention to the appointment of commandants and should by no means adopt suggestions of members opposite. If the Minister will consider the feelings of the people there will be no difficulties.

I wish to ask the Chairman’s ruling as to whether I shall be in order in discussing questions of policy in connection with the Labour Department when Vote No. 36, “Labour,” is put, or whether the discussion should take place on the vote under consideration on the salary of the Minister of Defence, who is also Minister of Labour.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Defence is also Minister of Labour, without a salary in the latter capacity, the hon. member will be in order in discussing questions of policy in connection with the Labour Department on the Defence Vote if he wishes to avail himself of the provisions of Standing Order No. 102 (a) (3) in order to speak for 40 minutes. If, however, the hon. member does not wish to speak for more than 10 minutes he should reserve his remarks until Vote No. 36, “Labour,” is put.

Vote put and agreed to.

Business interrupted by the Chairman at 10.55 p.m.

House Resumed.

Progress reported; House to resume in committee to-morrow.