I move—

Before 1959 the Land Bank obtained its funds for the provision of credit to farmers from amounts voted from time to time by this House, but in that year the Land Bank Act was amended and it was decided that in future the Land Bank would be enabled to take up its own funds in the open market. The Act also provided that money thus taken up would be debited to and be payable from the revenue and assets of the Bank, and in so far as the funds are concerned which the Board has thus far taken up in the local money market, the above-mentioned legal provision has always complied fully with the requirements for security of depositors and investors. Until now it has not been necessary for the Board of the Bank to obtain any money from overseas, but it may be necessary to do so in future, as in the case of the Electricity Supply Commission, and it has been determined in the meantime that if the Board has to obtain such funds overseas it will probably be a requirement that those funds are to be guaranteed by the Government. At the moment there is no legal provision in terms of which the Government can guarantee any such foreign loan by the Land Bank Board, in case that becomes necessary. The object of this brief Bill is, therefore, merely to enable the Government, if such an eventuality may arise, to guarantee such a loan entered into by the Land Bank abroad. It applies only in respect of money lent overseas.

I may just say that in the case of the Electricity Supply Commission a similar provision has been inserted in the Act, and we are now merely asking that the Land Bank Board should be put in the same position as the Electricity Supply Commission and that where necessary it will be able to depend (if the Government approves it, of course) on a guarantee by the Government for any funds it may borrow abroad.

There will be no opposition from this side of the House to the second reading of this Bill. Any step the Government may take to facilitate the flow of capital investment into agriculture is obviously a step in the right direction, and any reasonable step the Government may take to attract capital funds from abroad for industrial or agricultural development in South Africa will find the support of this side of the House. The hon. the Minister has indicated that the proposal contained in this Bill is a direct consequence of the Government’s decision in 1959 to change the method by which the Land Bank raises funds to carry out its loan schemes to farmers. In 1959 the Land Bank was given powers to raise funds by way of bills and debentures. I think we on this side of the House are also in agreement with the hon. the Minister that to attract investments from abroad will hardly be a feasible proposition without the covering support of a State guarantee for repayment, such as is outlined in this Bill. There is no purpose, of course, in expanding on the reasons why the situation arises, at any rate, not at this stage. But I would like to stress this, however, that in the exercise of his right to provide a guarantee in terms of this Act, the hon. the Minister is not carrying out a mere formality. It is much more than that. It is, of course, a commitment on the Consolidated Revenue Fund and constitutes a contingent liability on that fund. Now as the House well knows, control over the Consolidated Revenue Fund, that is the public purse, is an important, perhaps the only remaining important prerogative of Parliament, and I believe it behoves this House in general and the Opposition in particular to be jealous of that prerogative and to see that it should be preserved in every possible way.

There is no duty cast on the Treasury to disclose the extent of contingent liabilities on the Consolidated Revenue Fund. The Controller and Auditor-General does try to overcome that defect, but there is also no duty cast upon him, either expressed or implied, to keep Parliament acquainted with what the contingent liabilities are on the Consolidated Revenue Fund. As the hon. the Minister has indicated, State finance has become a much more complicated matter in recent years. The very fact that this institution—a well-established institution like the Land Bank, which is a wholly Government-owned enterprise—has had to be given these added and extended borrowing powers in 1959, and that these powers have to be amplified during this Session, sufficiently demonstrates that position quite clearly. The simple procedure which was followed before 1959, by which all funds that went to the Land Bank were provided by direct appropriation from this House has now obviously ended. In the circumstances, therefore, it seems to us that this is an occasion on which the need for the insertion of some safeguard to preserve the financial prerogative of Parliament should be given consideration. Sir, there is precedent and I think a satisfactory and workable precedent for such a step. In 1951 when the borrowing powers of a kindred institution, that is the Industrial Development Corporation, were extended and when somewhat similar powers of guarantee were conferred upon the Minister, a safeguard was introduced during the Committee Stage of that Bill in these terms—(Act No. 40 of 1951, Section 1 (2))—

I am well aware that the hon. the Minister does exercise somewhat similar powers of guarantee on behalf of the State in respect of the repayment of overdrafts and other loan commitments by local bodies such as agricultural control boards, but as far as I am aware this is the first instance in which these powers are being sought by Act of Parliament specifically in respect of loans raised abroad. And I am not overlooking the instance of Escom. It is true that Escom has had loans from abroad, but I think I am correct in saying that they have come entirely from the International Finance Organizations, and in particular from the World Bank. The borrowing from those two financial institutions, Sir, takes place in terms of the Government’s membership of those institutions, and there is this significant difference, therefore, in so far as borrowing from these international organizations are concerned, that South Africa is a member thereof. Borrowings by Escom have also this other distinctive feature that Escom is providing assets, that it adds to its fixed assets, whereas an institution such as the Land Bank, of course, does not acquire assets but acquires debts. I hope, therefore, that the hon. the Minister will give consideration as a matter of principle to the suggestion that this is the opportune time for the Government to introduce some safeguard in respect of the parliamentary prerogative. I suggest that based on a precedent which has been acceptable to this House, and which I hope will be acceptable to the Minister, such a safeguard should now be introduced. It is the principle we are concerned with, not the details. I hope the hon. the Minister will give consideration to the suggestion because this clearly to my mind is a suitable occasion to introduce that form of safeguard.

As may be expected from all hon. members, the introduction of this Bill is generally welcomed. It is a brief Bill to which the old adage of “short but sweet” may be applied in so far as the agricultural industry is concerned. We heartily welcome the Bill. The forward step is now being taken of trying to obtain capital also from abroad to finance the Land Bank. The farming community in South Africa, irrespective of political convictions, knows how much worse the position of agriculture would have been without the support of the Land Bank in years gone by. I am thinking particularly of the difficult times we have experienced. We know from experience that when creditors can no longer bear the burdens of the farmers in general and certain farmers, as the result of many circumstances, like the vagaries of nature and other circumstances over which they have no control, landed in trouble, it was always the Land Bank which stepped in and saved the farmers from collapse.

Order! The hon. member is now deviating too far. We are not discussing the desirability of having a Land Bank, but only a small amendment of the existing Act.

I would therefore like to give my blessing to this amendment, which makes it possible to seek foreign capital, on behalf of the farmers of South Africa.

We on this side of the House naturally welcome this Bill because we are anxious to see that money is provided to help the farmers through the Land Bank, and for that purpose every source must be gone into, and if the money can be raised abroad it will be an extremely good thing. But I doubt if this can be done unless the Government applies a measure such as this, guaranteeing such a loan. Without such a guarantee the loan—if floated at all—would be at a very high rate of interest, a rate of interest which would be uneconomic for the farmers. Hon. members merely have to see what our Government loans are standing at on the Swiss or the London or the New York Stock Exchange to realize what a Land Bank Loan would cost as far as the rate of interest is concerned if it were not guaranteed by the Government. Otherwise the Government would have to charge the farmers a rate of interest which would be uneconomic to the farmers, or the Government would have to subsidize the farmers by allowing them cheaper rates than what it had to pay for the money. At the rate of interest that money is earning to-day on our Government loans, the position is that to-day S.A. Government stock in London yield per cent, and therefore one can imagine what a Land Bank loan unguaranteed by the Government would cost. At the present moment of course there is a plethora of short-term money, but that would be of no use for this purpose whatsoever, and whilst there is a certain amount of long-term money (and the rate is shortening, I think), I doubt whether the large amount required can all be raised in this country. I would not suggest for a moment that the short-term money is funk-money. It simply is coming here because it can earn such a high rate of interest. On call-money to-day you can get something like 4½ per cent and that is what attracts the short-term money, but that is money which can go at any moment if the rate should rise overseas or the rate should drop here, and even sound stocks, such as first-class municipalities, Pretoria for instance, which is issuing a loan at an effective rate of about 6¼ per cent, are paying high rates. I think that loan will be over-subscribed as far as Pretoria is concerned. I must say that it is rather surprising that there is such confidence in the municipality considering the type of member they send to the House here. But that is merely by the way. In view of this, I support the Bill fully, but I would like to also support what the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (South) (Mr. Plewman) has put so clearly, namely that it is necessary that this House, which is very jealous of its rights, should know exactly what is going on, and therefore I think the suggestion of the hon. member should be implemented in this Bill. But before I sit down, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister to tell us where he thinks he is going to raise this money—in London or Switzerland, or New York? And what sort of rate of interest does he expect to pay if he guarantees such a loan?

I just want to thank the House for the friendly way in which it has received this Bill, and I immediately want to tell the hon. member for Green Point (Maj. van der Byl) that I am not able to say where or how much or at what rate of interest we shall be able to borrow money, because at the moment this is not an actuality. We are providing here only for a possibility, and the Treasury or the Land Bank Board have not yet seriously considered taking steps to test the market. In regard to the other point raised by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (South) (Mr. Plewman), I just want to say that in my view the precedent laid down in the Escom Act is sufficient protection for the prerogative of Parliament. We know that the Treasury is always inclined to keep very strict supervision to ensure that no guarantees are furnished for unnecessary loans, and the precedent established there is perhaps the best safeguard against such a danger. The hon. member said that as far as he knew, Escom loans had always come from the World Bank. That is not so. Escom has also floated loans in Switzerland in respect of which such a guarantee applied.

Then I also want to point out that in my opinion the distinction drawn by the hon. member between Escom and the Land Bank is not quite justified. He says that if you borrow money for Escom you are creating assets, but if you borrow money for the Land Bank there are only debts, but I do not think the hon. member is quite correct there. In both cases we obtain these loans for the development of the country. In the one case it is more particularly for industrial development, and in the other case for agricultural development. But both are loans we obtain in order to provide certain services to the various sectors of our economy, and it is not true that the Land Bank only has debts. It renders services, for which it has security. Where Escom as a semi-state undertaking renders services, it also bears the burdens of that undertaking. In the case of the Land Bank, it renders services to the farmers, and the greatest proportion of the debts is borne by them. Here provision is just being made to facilitate the obtaining of capital for the development of the industry. Therefore I cannot see that there is such a difference as to justify a different kind of treatment in the case of the Land Bank from what obtains in the case of Escom.

I just want to say that I appreciate the interest revealed here, but I do not think that the particular suggestions made here warrant our deviating from the precedent established in the case of the Escom loan.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

I move—

In the North-Western Cape there is a town called Pofadder. This town Pofadder was not named as the result of the fact that there was one particularly large pofadder there, or many pofadders, but it got its name from the then chief of the Koranna tribe who had the name of Klaas Pofadder, and Cannon Island appears on the scene for the first time in our history in connection with this Koranna chief Klaas Pofadder. From 1876 to 1880 there was a small local war between the Cape Colony as it was then and the Korannas under Klaas Pofadder, and later it became necessary to send the Cape Field Artillery to try to end the war. Towards the end of the war Klaas Pofadder and his Korannas entrenched themselves on the present Cannon Island and the Cape Artillery bombarded them from the southern bank of the river. Klaas Pofadder and his men were not very pleased with this one-sided bombardment and then decided that they would also make a gun, and they then took a tree trunk and hollowed it out and mounted it on wagon-wheels, and they put in a lot of gunpowder and a number of riverstones, but in their stupidity they added more gunpowder and more river-stones, and in this way they made a sort of layer-cake up the whole length of the barrel of the gun which they had made from the tree trunk. The result was that when the gun was fired there was a terrible noise, much smoke and fewer Korannas. It is alleged that old Klaas then said: “If this is how things are going here, I wonder how they are going over there?” The Korannas then decided to make peace, and as the result of this incident the island was called Cannon Island. Cannon Island then practically disappeared from history. It is a nice island of about 2,000 morgen. It disappeared from history until the depression years, when a number of farmers in the north-west became impoverished as the result of the long drought we had at that time and the depression during which they could get nothing for the few animals they still had over, and a number of them decided to go and squat on Cannon Island and to try to make a living there. They were an independent group of people, a stubborn crowd, and their descendants to-day are amongst the best settlers we have in the whole of the Republic. But things did not go very smoothly after they had settled on Cannon Island. They had to provide water and level the ground and uproot trees. But in the course of time they put 1,800 morgen under irrigation and established 180 farms there. But just as the Government did not want the Korannas on Cannon Island, the then Government was not satisfied that these squatters should have claimed for themselves this beautiful island in the Orange River, and the then Minister, Mr. Grobler, decided that they must leave. He then sent one of his officials there, but they curtly told him: “We are here, and we are going to remain here.” Further officials were sent and they told these people: “Look, chaps, you cannot make a living here, you will die of hunger and tomorrow or the next day you will again be on the doorstep of the Government to get assistance.” Then this people got together that night and took a solemn oath that they would never ask the Government for any assistance. They had a bitterly difficult time. Many of them did not have food to eat, but they did not approach the Government. The few who had a little food left shared it with the others, and so they carried on.

Then Mr. Grobler decided to take serious steps against them and obtained an ejectment order which was served on them by a policeman from Upington, notifying them that in terms of the law they were being given notice to vacate. They knew what would happen. The Cannon Islanders know of many things in advance. When the constable arrived they immediately treated him to the locally distilled brandy, which is not 43 degrees of alcohol per volume but much stronger, and before the constable could serve the order of court they offered him a farm, which he accepted. The next day he rode his horse back to Upington and resigned from the police and he and his descendants became happy inhabitants of Cannon Island. In the end the Government surrendered to the Cannon Islanders in this second war against them.

In 1939 the Cannon Island Bill was passed, which settled these people there and gave them the right to that land. Now there are about 1,000 souls on approximately 180 farms with an annual production of about R2,000. I can give you the assurance, Mr. Speaker, that we have not a happier settlement in the whole of the Republic or one which is less of a burden to the State than this one. Now and again there were great floods. These people suffered damage together with the others, but they have never come to the Government for assistance to repair the flood damage. They have always struggled themselves to repair the damage.

The board they have has certain powers. It is a sort of local board established under statutory powers. They have, for example, the right to sell land and to buy it, the right to lease land and also the right to donate land. They can, e.g., donate land for schools and have already done so, and also for public buildings, etc. But they have not the right to donate any money. That was not inserted in the Act, probably because it was lost sight of. All that this Bill now asks is that they should have the right also to donate money as well as land. They have approached me because they want to do two things. They want to build a sports-field there and also a clinic. They want to pay part of the costs of the clinic and part of the cost of the sportsfield, but they may not do so under the old Act. Under the old Act they can donate only immovable property, with the approval of the Minister. Now they ask to be given the right also to donate movable property, provided 75 per cent of the inhabitants agree to it at a public meeting; and, secondly, provided the Minister approves of it. Now, I say that this is a responsible group of people of whom we can be proud, and this small concession we are making to them will cost the State nothing, but we will be giving them something they really deserve.

I have the privilege of knowing quite a few of the inhabitants of Cannon Island and, as the hon. the Minister has said, they are hardworking people but they are also hard-headed. I know the bit of history he has related and it is quite true. They are people who did what they liked on that island. They took it and did not allow anybody else to have any say there. I think this House will be obliged to grant this request, or else the Cannon Islanders will simply take these powers. In any case, Sir, we on this side of the House are quite agreeable. We heartily support the amendment and we assure the Minister that it is quite in order.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

I move—

This is also a very small and innocuous measure. The Douglas Irrigable Areas Board is a statutory body but the powers of this body are for all practical purposes the same as that of an ordinary irrigation board, or as we now call them, a water board, but the method of election of this board differs from that of an ordinary irrigation board. In an ordinary irrigation board the members of that board are elected by the members of the irrigation scheme voting in person at the general annual meeting. In the case of the Douglas Board the irrigators can vote by proxy. It has been found, Sir, that certain irregularities have taken place in regard to this voting by proxy which are not to the best advantage of the board or to the best advantage of the irrigators themselves—agitators make use of it, people are sometimes kept away from their annual meetings and have to give proxies to people who have some other hold over them. It is felt that this should be brought into line with our ordinary irrigation boards. All that this Bill does is to say that nobody will in future vote by proxy, but only the votes of those present at an annual meeting of the irrigators will be considered. I think this is necessary. They have asked for it. My Department has investigated the matter and has come to the conclusion that some of the evils which exist to-day will be eradicated if we did this and I think it is in the best interests of everybody.

As the Minister has said by this Bill he seeks to debar any registered owner of property in the Douglas irrigation district from voting by proxy. We on these benches oppose this measure. Not only do we think that it creates a dangerous precedent but we understand that there is no other irrigation district where so many of the owners of property live away from that particular area. We feel that it is unfair to these owners who have made great contributions to the development of this particular area. They have always enjoyed these powers. They obtained these powers when they purchased their particular erven. These powers were part of their rights of purchase. Now, after enjoying these rights for very many years, owners of property living away cannot vote by proxy regardless of any excuse such as illness or something else beyond their control. We feel that the Minister may be beginning to delegate the wide powers which the Government has conceded to this board to perhaps a very narrow representation, perhaps even the quorum of the board in future may have the right of electing its members. We do not think that is a wise precedent. The Minister has not really given us any definite reason for the introduction of this Bill. He says that he wants to bring it into conformity with that of other irrigation boards. But there must have been very cogent reasons why this provision was enbodied in this Act, reasons which fall beyond the Minister’s control as regards regulations which affect the power of the Minister in regard to the management of the board. As I have said this board has very wide powers; it actually has ownership. The Government delegated to it the ownership of that whole irrigation district. It controls all the servitudes concerned. Those are wide powers, Sir, which we do not feel prepared to hand over to what may be a quorum of the present board. We know, as I have emphasized, that many of these owners live away from this district and that is something which we want to encourage. Farmers, by owning erven in this irrigation district, are able to build up fodder banks in times of drought and this is what has happened in this instance. There are farmers in the Hanover and other districts who create a fodder bank in the Douglas irrigation district. This regulation is going to detract from an endeavour which we want to encourage. For that reason I want to ask the Minister not to press this Bill.

I think that if the previous speaker was acquainted with the circumstances at Douglas and its environs he would have viewed the matter in quite a different light. He asks that we should protect that settlement so that the powers do not fall into the hands of a small group. That is exactly what the Minister envisages in this Bill, and it is exactly what those people ask for. We must remember that this particular settlement is characterized by the fact that there are a large number of people, different from what the position is at other settlements, who are elderly and who live on a small bit of ground. They are dependent on others. They are people who can be influenced very easily. That is exactly what this irrigation board experienced in the past, viz. that its best endeavours to make the administration of that area as good as possible were obstructed by irresponsible people who got a large number of persons to sign the proxies for them, and then they got undesirable persons appointed to that board, persons who did nothing else but simply obstruct everything the board tried to do for the benefit of the community. It was because this obstructive influence was so clearly felt that the people asked that this Act should be amended. In view of the fact that the Minister has already told us that in the case of other settlements the position is already like this and that this is merely an exceptional case, and that the position is now simply being brought into line with the legislation applying to the other settlements, we want to ask that this House should pass this Bill in order to strengthen the hands of the people in that vicinity who have asked for it and who want to serve the best interests of the community. We shall not be rendering a service to that community by disapproving of this measure.

I am afraid I am not greatly impressed by what the hon. member for Kimberley (South) (Mr. W. L. D. M. Venter) has said. He almost jeered at what he called old people who did not understand the position. Yet those people have an interest there. Surely to heaven they have the right to express their opinion and to see that the concern is controlled the way they want it governed. They should not be cut out simply because they are too old or unable to attend meetings themselves. Why should they not be allowed to vote by proxy? It is essential that an interested party should have the right to show and to bring out his views and his opinion as to the running of any concern in which he has an interest. Every financial company, mining house, insurance company, even when there are no shareholders but merely policy holders, extends to its members the right to vote by proxy in order to show what their wishes and views are in regard to the control or the running of that concern. I think we are striking a blow at the right of the individual if we are going to take away that right to vote by proxy. Frankly, Sir, I think it is entirely wrong; it is undersirable to do away with the essential right of the individual to have a say. Because he happens to be ill that day or cannot attend the meeting for some other reason, it is wrong to deprive a property owner of the right of expressing his opinion. It is the thin end of the wedge to deprive individuals of certain of their rights. Let us come a little closer home. If the hon. the Minister, who is a director of a certain concern, had not been able to get his supporters to vote him in by proxy, he might not still be a director of that particular concern. Therefore. Sir, I feel that he ought to sympathize with us when we say that we should stand by the principles which applied in his case and which ensured him his position. Let us give that same right to other people. That right should not be taken away because they happen not to be able to be present at a certain meeting which is essential.

I just want to point out that we are not dealing here with companies and such things. We are dealing with irrigators and with a case where we want to introduce discipline. It is something which emanates from those people themselves. We do not want to take away their rights, but we at least want them to exercise their own rights. The Minister certainly will not introduce these amendments against the will of those people. Therefore I think that our hon. friends opposite have not really studied the matter. After listening to the hon. member for Kimberley (South) (Mr. W. L. D. M. Venter), it is obvious that this is aimed at introducing discipline and eliminating confusion which now exists. I cannot understand how there can be any objection to what is being proposed here by the Minister.

I do not want to say that I am not impressed at all by the hon. the member for Kimberley (South). The hon. the Minister also said that there was a tremendous amount of agitation at Douglas, and because these people can now sign proxies for others, it can lead to abuse. The Minister’s proposal will not solve that matter. The hon. the Minister’s difficulty is agitation. The agitation will still be there, whether these people vote by proxy or personally. The Minister will not remove that agitation. I think the hon. the Minister and his Department should seek to prevent this type of thing by other means. But, Sir, when we deal with a step like this, to take away certain rights of people, I am quite certain that the only consequence will be that there will be even more agitation. After all, what is wrong with agitation? If those people want to do certain things for their own benefit, must we now prohibit them from agitating in a more democratic manner? Those people will not agitate for things which are not in their interest. They agitate for things which are in their interest. Even the people who live there and who must appear personally to vote for the Board will be acting in their personal interest. What is the position there now? This old Act of 1937 provides for the establishment of an Irrigation Board to cater for the interests of all the erf holders and site owners. That Board has a specific mandate and a specific work it has to do, in the interests of all the people, whether they live there or not. But what is the position at Douglas to-day? In 1950 I gained a fair amount of experience of that area. Then it was to a certain extent a very poor area.

Were you at school there?

No, but I would not have been ashamed to have been at school there. That area developed, not only through the efforts of the inhabitants of Douglas. The hon. member for Kimberley (South) will agree with that, because I concede that he knows a lot about those parts. Those areas were developed by people from outside, by farmers from the whole of the Karoo and the northwest who to-day have plots there. If we now accept this amendment by the Minister, the result will be that those people cannot exercise their legitimate say as to how the Irrigation Board of Douglas should protect their interests. I say that any inhabitant of Douglas itself, if he sees a little further than his nose, will realize that these people did not come there to exploit; they came there in the interest of the Douglas settlement as a whole. If this proposition of the hon. the Minister is accepted, it means that there will be scores of people who have property there but who will have no further say in regard to that area.

Why?

Because it will be impossible for many of them to be present there in person just on the day when the Board has to be elected. If it is made possible for them to cast their vote by proxy, I believe those people will do so for the benefit of Douglas as a whole. It we do it as the hon. the Minister suggests, it means that we are slapping the faces of a large number of people who did a lot of good for Douglas during the past ten or 12 years. Therefore I support the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Bowker) in his opposition to this Bill.

When a man is unable to be present during an election he can vote in one of two ways: Firstly, he can vote by postal vote; the second method is by proxy. A few days ago the hon. the Prime Minister outlined to us a system under which Xhosas will vote in the Transkei. The Transkei Native living in Cape Town or East London or Port Elizabeth will have to vote in the Transkei. Now, are they to be disfranchised in the same manner as these owners are being disfranchised? If not, how are they going to vote? I should think probably they will consider proxies in the Transkei, either to the headman or the chief or in some other way, because to vote by ballot will be practically impossible. Therefore, I say that to disfranchise these people in this manner is contrary to our ordinary accepted manner of voting if the man is unable to be present.

Mr. Speaker, I must admit that I have seldom heard more feeble arguments used than those I heard here to-day, or more far-fetched ones. Let me start with the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Bowker). He says: How can we enforce this thing on those people? They asked for it themselves.

The Board or the settlers?

The Board asked me for it and I said no, I will not accept your word only, I want to hear what the settlers say about it. Then they voted on it and the majority of the settlers voted for it. If the hon. member says we are forcing it on to these people he knows nothing about the whole matter. In the case of all the irrigation boards in South Africa, one must be present in order to vote. Because this particular irrigation board falls under a separate Act, its provisions are different. If the hon. member’s standpoint is correct, it must also be wrong if in the case of other boards the votes have to be cast personally. I put this question to the hon. member for Albany: If it is wrong in this case that one cannot vote by proxy, it is also wrong in the case of the other irrigation boards.

The circumstances are not the same.

No, no, do not try to run away now. The hon. member himself voted in favour of the other irrigation boards not being able to vote by proxy. He even made a nice speech in favour of that Act. But now that he is in opposition, everything the Government does is wrong. Everything which he did previously is wrong! Well, I know that much of what was done before was wrong, but no worse than what he is doing now.

Then I come to the hon. member for Green Point (Maj. van der Byl). He says: Just think of the position of companies if their shareholders cannot vote by proxy. What an injustice that is! Why does one vote for a company by proxy? Because the shareholders of the company are spread all over the country and it is impossible for them to get together for the annual meeting of the company. That is the reason why there is voting by proxy there. Here it is quite a different matter. These people are spread over an area of about six miles, from the top to the bottom of this irrigation area. The hon. member for Green Point merely thinks in terms of big business. He does not think in terms of a small area where all these people live together and discuss these matters. He does not realize the difference. But he also voted for the old Irrigation Act which said that they could not vote by proxy but had to be present personally. Why is it wrong now?

I suppose I made a mistake.

We are not taking something away from these people here. We are giving them something for which they asked, something for which the majority of them asked, something which has already been tested in South Africa. Here we have an exception to the way it is generally done, and those people themselves realize that the exception which applies in their case is undesirable. Therefore they are now asking for an improvement. But the old stick-in-the-muds opposite do not want to have improvement. They object. I have heard many feeble arguments from that side of the House already, but none weaker than this.

Motion put and the House divided:

AYES—84: Bekker. G. F. H.; Bekker, M. J. M.; Bezuidenhout, G. P. C.; Bootha, L. J. C.; Botha, H. J.; Botha, M. C.; Botha, P. W.; Botha, S. P.; Coetzee, B.; Coetzee, P. J.; Cruywagen, W. A.; de Villiers, J. D.; de Wet, C.; Diederichs, N.; Dönges, T. E.; du Plessis. H. R. H.; Fouché, J. J. (Sr.); Frank, S.; Froneman, G. F. van L.; Greyling, J. C.; Grobler, M. S. F.; Haak, J. F. W.; Hertzog, A.; Heystek. J.; Hiemstra, E. C. A.; Jonker, A. H.; Knobel, G. J.; Kotzé, G. P.; Kotzé, S. F.; le Roux, P. M. K.; Loots, J. J.; Malan, A. I.; Malan, W. C.; Marais, J. A.; Marais, P. S.; Maree. G. de K.; Martins, H. E.; Mostert. D. J. J.; Mulder, C. P.; Muller, S. L.; Nel, J. A. F.; Nel, M. D. C. de W.; Niemand, F. J.; Otto, J. C.; Pelser, P. C.; Potgieter, D. J.; Potgieter, J. E.; Rall, J. J.; Rall, J. W.; Sadie, N. C. van R.; Sauer, P. O.; Schlebusch. J. A.; Schoeman, B. J.; Schoonbee, J. F.; Smit, H. H.; Stander, A. H.; Steyn, F. S.; Steyn, J. H.; Treurnicht, N. F.; Uys, D. C. H.; van den Berg, G. P.; van den Berg, M. J.; van den Heever, D. J. G.; van der Merwe, J. A.; van der Merwe, P. S.; van der Spuy, J. P.; van der Walt, B. J.; van der Wath, J. G. H.; van Eeden, F. J.; van Niekerk, G. L. H.; van Niekerk, M. C.; van Nierop, P. J.; van Rensburg, M. C. G. J.; van Staden, J. W.; van Wyk, H. J.; van Zyl, J. J. B.; Venter, W. L. D. M.; Verwoerd, H. F.; Visse, J. H.; Vorster, B. J.; Vosloo, A. H.; Webster, A.

Tellers: W. H. Faurie and J. J. Fouché.

NOES—44: Barnett, C.; Basson, J. A. L.; Bloomberg, A.; Bowker, T. B.; Bronkhorst, H. J.; Cadman, R. M.; Connan, J. M.; Cronje, F. J. C.; de Kock, H. C.; Dodds, P. R.; Durrant, R. B.; Field, A. N.; Fisher, E. L.; Gay, L. C.; Graaff, de V.; Henwood, B. H.; Hickman, T.; Higgerty, J. W.; le Roux, G. S. P.; Lewis, H.; Malan, E. G.; Mitchell, D. E.; Moore. P. A.; Odell, H. G. O.; Oldfield, G. N.; Plewman, R. P.; Radford, A.; Raw, W. V.; Ross, D. G.; Russell, J. H.; Steenkamp, L. S.; Steyn, S. J. M.; Streicher, D. M.; Taurog, L. B.; Thompson, J. O. N.; Timoney, H. M.; Tucker, H.; van der Byl, P.; Warren, C. M.; Waterson, S. F.; Weiss, U. M.; Wood, L. F.

Tellers: N. G. Eaton and A. Hopewell.

Motion accordingly agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

I move—

In doing so, I wish to refer to the fact that the Coloured population of the Republic of South Africa numbers approximately 1,500,000. of which 1,314,000 live in the Cape Province, 105,200 in the Transvaal, 25,600 in the Free State, and about 43,100 in Natal. Of these numbers, approximately 542,728 live in the Cape Peninsula, and approximately 390,300 in other cities and urban areas.

Good progress continues to be made in the establishment of Coloured townships, so much so that more than 25,000 houses have been provided since 1948 for this group. I mention this figure as an indication of the progress that has already been made in furthering the social interests of this population group. In regard to the rural Coloured areas, considerable progress has been made in developing the agricultural potential of these areas in the last couple of years, but these areas do not offer the possibility of a livelihood from farming to all who live there. The farming potential can only be utilized by and in respect of the bona fide farmer. The other inhabitants of the areas living in the hamlets and villages seek a livelihood elsewhere, usually outside these areas. Now it is the accepted policy of the Government that the Coloured areas, whether in the urban areas or in these rural areas, be developed in order to provide openings for the Coloureds in order that they may also progress in the field of commerce, create opportunities for work and lead to self-help. In this regard I want to quote from a memorandum submitted to the Minister of Justice and myself when we met the Kaaplandse Kleurling-sake-kamer. They refer to the Group Areas Act and say—

The urge and desire to develop himself in commerce are present in the Coloured just as in any other person, but throughout he is handicapped by lack of capital which results in other race groups being able within Coloured residential areas and the towns themselves to take advantage of the Coloured’s disability in this respect. Now I do not want to criticize these business undertakings where their bona fides are not in doubt. As a matter of fact, these undertakings by other race groups in Coloured areas render to the Coloured community an essential service which members of that community themselves are for various reasons unable to provide. But it gives rise to frustration and opposition as far as the Coloured people are concerned. Many a Coloured man considers himself able to render the same service if guidance and capital were available to him. He finds it difficult, if not impossible, to obtain capital for a business, and there is no institution which is exclusively or primarily concerned with the economic development of the Coloured community. Consequently he seeks an outlet in a few directions which offer opportunities, such as labour, factory work, artisan or teacher, but in which he as a group cannot offer opportunities for work for his own people, except perhaps to a small degree in the building industry. Now it is our earnest desire and it is the declared policy of the Government to guide the Coloured people on the basis of good neighbourliness to self-fulfilment in their own areas, whether urban or rural, and to assist him with the necessary aid towards that goal.

One of the steps towards development lies in development in the economic field. In this direction the Coloured should play a part in his own development and the State will provide the assistance to enable him to make his contribution towards his own upliftment. For this development opportunities will be created to help the man who is prepared to put his shoulder to the wheel. This means of assistance will not only consist of financial aid. It helps no one to receive only money and not to know how to do the work. Guidance and control will be necessary in order to ensure that as far as possible financial aid is employed usefully and to the best advantage, so that the individual business undertaking launched with State assistance will be a success. The hon. the Prime Minister, in his announcement of 7 December 1960, in regard to the Government’s positive development programme for the Coloured population of the Republic, envisaged inter alia the establishment of a Coloured Development Corporation for the purpose of encouraging Coloured business undertakings and providing expert advice and financial aid. The announcement of this plan was made for two reasons, firstly as a result of applications which emanated from the Coloured population, and more specifically from the Council for Coloured Affairs to the effect that action be taken by the Government to establish an institution to assist the Coloureds to develop towards full participation in commerce, and secondly, because of an earnest desire on the part of the Government to encourage and promote the advancement of the Coloured population in these fields and to guide them towards self-help through their own initiative and the accumulation of capital.

With the aforegoing background, this Bill which is being proposed has been introduced. Before I deal with the provisions of the Bill. I should like to explain that it was submitted in its draft form for comment to the Departments of Commerce and Industries, the Registrar of Financial Institutions, the Secretary for Finance, the Secretary for the Treasury and the Department of Community Development, and also that I had discussions with Prof. C. W. Schumann, the former Head of the Department of Commerce of the University of Stellenbosch, Dr. M. S. Louw, the well-known economist, and Mr. J. G. van der Merwe, a prominent business man. The useful and valued comments received from these authorities and persons have, but for a few minor suggestions relating to administrative matters, been taken into account in the preparation of this Bill.

The aims of the Development Corporation with which I now wish to deal in detail, envisaged in this Bill in terms of Clause 3, are designed to encourage and promote the advancement of Coloureds in industrial areas and in the fields of industry and commerce and finance. The aims are stated in as wide a form as possible in order to cover most of the aspects affecting Coloured interests in the economic field. Should other aspects arise at a later stage which are not covered by these aims and which the Corporation could with advantage also undertake, this Bill empowers the State President to make provision for such matters by proclamation in the Gazette.

Then hon. members will note that the Corporation’s field of activities is limited to the granting of assistance to Coloureds in Coloured and industrial areas. A Coloured area is defined in Clause 1, while an industrial area outside a Coloured group area retains its ordinary meaning. Acquisition or occupation in an industrial area is, however, subject to the provisions of the Group Areas Act. In this connection I may inform hon. members that my colleague, the Minister of Economic Affairs, is contemplating appointing a special auxiliary committee for physical and industrial planning through the Natural Resources Development Council to make recommendations in regard to (a) fitting in all race groups with the physical and industrial planning, and (b) bringing about co-ordinated action in this regard. It is realized that although the Coloured has not yet become an industrialist, he will gradually develop in that direction and perhaps sooner than we expect, with the necessary encouragement and support. Consequently his development in industrial areas is also envisaged in the Bill.

As soon as the Corporation has been established, further, steps will be taken in terms of Section I (i) (xxiv) of the Group Areas Act, as amended by Section 1 (c) of Act No. 23 of 1961, to have the Corporation declared a statutory body. Such declaration will exempt the Corporation, in so far as its own activities are concerned, from certain provisions of the Group Areas Act in respect of the acquisition of fixed property, while its members and employees will be able to take occupation without permits having to be obtained from the Group Areas Board. To enable the Corporation to carry out its aims, a number of general powers are granted to it in terms of Clause 4. All these powers are self-explanatory, but there are a few on which I will briefly touch here.

Clause 4 (a): The Corporation will be able, with the approval of the State President, to establish and conduct industrial, business and financial undertakings. Such activities by the Corporation itself are made subject to the approval of the State President, in order to ensure that due regard is had to the country’s interests as a whole.

Clause 4 (b): In a Coloured area there may be affected persons in terms of the Group Areas Act whose business undertakings may be taken over by the Corporation with the approval of the Minister on behalf of a Coloured. As far as Clause 4 (c) is concerned, as I have already said, the mere raising of capital is no guarantee of economic progress. Consequently the Corporation will be empowered to provide other measures of assistance in addition to capital, e.g. technical aid, expert advice, information and guidance, in order that its aim to encourage and promote the advancement of the Coloured may be achieved.

Then in Clause 4 (b), the coming into being of Coloured towns and cities will bring about the need for Coloureds to be served by members of their own race group. This must be made possible in all fields, and for this reason there should be institutions in which the Coloured community can mobilize its capital and in which the Coloured can play his part and have a say as director, shareholder or investor. Accordingly the Corporation will be empowered to establish companies or to assist in establishing companies. The other proposed powers of the Corporation are clear and I do not intend at this stage to elaborate on them. Normally, Mr. Speaker, the Corporation will, in terms of Clause 5, be able to invest with the Public Debt Commissioners any moneys not immediately required for carrying out its activities, but the Minister can authorize the Corporation to invest such moneys in other ways, and naturally that will only happen after consultation with his colleague.

Clause 6 provides that the Corporation may, where necessary, in order to safeguard its investment, act as director, manager, trustee, curator, executor or administrator of a Coloured business, estate or fund, or designate someone else to act as such on behalf of the Corporation. Clause 7 makes the usual provision for the appointment, discharge and indemnification of the Corporation’s officials and for granting them pension and sickness benefits. Then there is Clause 8. One of the powers of the Corporation will enable it to raise or borrow money. It is, however, provided in Clause 8 that the Corporation may only exercise this power under certain restrictions. Its borrowing powers will be limited to an amount equal to half the sum obtained by adding its paid-up share capital to any reserve funds. If the Corporation wishes to exceed this amount, the Minister’s approval is necessary. The management and control of the Corporation will be vested in a board of directors in terms of Clause 9. The State President will determine the number of directors, appoint them, and designate the Chairman. The directors will be selected on the grounds of their ability and experience in conducting business or the administration of business undertakings or their acquaintance with the needs of the Coloured population. The board of directors may at its discretion submit any matter to the Minister for his decision. A decision given by the Minister on such submission will be deemed to be a decision of the Board.

Provision is made in Clause 10 for the appointment of an alternate director by the State President, if the latter is of opinion that the circumstances require such appointment. Clause 11 excludes the appointment of a member of the Senate or House of Assembly or of a Provincial Council as a director or alternate director of the Corporation. Clause 12 empowers the State President to fix the period of office of the directors and of the chairman. A director will assume office on such conditions relating to remuneration as the State President may determine and on any other conditions provided by regulation. The board may determine and pay additional remuneration to a director who performs any other duty on behalf of the Corporation.

Clause 13 provides for the appointment by the Minister of the chairman or another director as managing director, whose powers and duties will be granted or imposed by the board. There is also a provision for the appointment of an acting managing director by the board, with the approval of the Minister. Should a managing director be not appointed, the board may appoint a general manager with such powers and for such duties as the board may grant or impose. The general manager would have to relinquish his post should a managing director be appointed. In terms of Clause 14, directors of the Corporation will not be held personally liable for any loss or damage which may arise in or in connection with the carrying out of the official duties unless the loss or damage was due to their deliberate misconduct, dishonesty, gross negligence or failure to comply with one or other provision of the Act and the regulations.

Clause 15 provides that the share capital will be R500,000, to be divided into 500,000 shares at R1 each. This share capital may, on the recommendation of the Corporation, be increased by the State President, and only the State will be a shareholder. The State will take up the shares as and when the State President deems it necessary, and on such conditions as he may determine. The shares will be paid for out of funds voted by Parliament for the purpose. The liability of the State will, in terms of Clause 16, be limited to the amount unpaid on the shares held by the State. In Clause 17 provision is made that the expenditure of the Corporation, including the remuneration of directors, will be defrayed from the funds of the Corporation. In terms of Clause 18, the Corporation may, with the approval of the State President, declare a dividend not exceeding 5 per cent, but otherwise all assets of the Corporation must be used for the advancement of its aims. In terms of Clause 19, the Corporation will be exempt from income tax but not from other taxation like customs and excise duties. The Corporation must, in terms of Clause 20, keep proper books of account, and the accounts must be audited annually by a registered accountant and auditor nominated annually by the Minister. Provision is made in Clause 21 for the submission to the Minister at the end of each financial year of a balance sheet and profit and loss account, a report by the auditor and a report by the Corporation on its activities. The Minister must within one month table these reports in the Senate and the House of Assembly, or, if Parliament is not in session, within one month after the commencement of the following session.

Clause 22 empowers the State President to make regulations. In terms of Clause 23 the Corporation may only be liquidated by authority of an Act of Parliament. Clause 24 places a ban on the use of the name of the Corporation by any person or company, except a company already registered when the Act comes into operation. In terms of Clause 25 the Corporation will fall outside the provisions of the Companies Act, 1926, but any provision of that Act which is not in conflict with this Bill may, by proclamation by the State President, be made applicable, with or without amendments, to the Corporation.

Mr. Speaker, I feel convinced that we are all in favour of such a positive measure as we are dealing with here. This is a practical way to enable those Coloured people who wish to help themselves to fulfil their ambitions.

We have listened this afternoon to a piece of special pleading which must, I think, arouse a certain amount of sympathy in the breasts of all of us, because we all welcome the expressed desire of the Minister to assist the Coloured community and we are all anxious to encourage all sections of the people in matters of economic development. But, Sir, that is of course not enough. One may have the desire to help any particular section, as I think the Minister has in respect of the Coloured people, but that is not sufficient to justify one off-hand in automatically endorsing any proposals which may be put forward, simply because they are intended to assist any particular community. One is bound to ask therefore whether this Bill, with the objects the Minister has mentioned, is sound in principle, and whether it is calculated in practice to serve its purpose in the general interests and without clashing with the other economic activities of the country.

This Bill is of course an apartheid measure. One can deduce quite clearly from the Minister’s speech that it is the group areas activities which have largely caused what he believes to be the necessity for providing financial assistance for the servicing of those group areas in the commercial field. It is a further attempt at the fragmentation of the economy of the country in pursuit of the Prime Minister’s fourstream policy about which we have heard so much and at the same time so little. Of course, we are opposed to the very existence of the Minister of Coloured Affairs himself. As soon as we get the opportunity we shall most certainly abolish his post, not that he is not endeavouring to carry out his duties to the very best of his ability, but in principle we do not approve of the establishment of a Ministry of Coloured Affairs, and therefore naturally in principle we are opposed to anything designed by him to help him build up his state within a state, because we honestly believe that it is economically unsound and politically impossible. There are many Coloured business people, especially down here in the Cape. The hon. the Minister referred to a Coloured Chamber of Commerce. Well, I imagine that if there is a Chamber of Commerce there must be people to form it, if it is a genuine Chamber of Commerce. But the Minister referred to it and I accept it as indicating that there is already a considerable body of Coloured business people in the community, and they have been there some time. Some of them are very substantial and I do not think there is any doubt that given stable conditions their number will increase. It happens almost in the normal course of events, and I do not doubt either that they could be financed in the normal way as they have been financed in the past by raising bonds on their property and loans from finance companies, and, of course, like most commercial people they would be financed to a large extent on credit by their suppliers. Of course, that state of affairs does not exist to the same extent to-day because the conditions of uncertainty and restrictions created by this Government, not knowing what is going to happen to them in the future, have very largely destroyed their normal credit facilities, and the consequence is that one may regard this Bill as a Bill which the Government is bringing in to try to fill the gap which they themselves have created. It is quite obvious; the Minister made no secret of the fact that in the initial stages, at any rate, the main object of this Bill is to establish small businesses, of which there are already a great many. That, of course, is a new principle in the Bill. The State has never yet made provision for financing and establishing the small business man. The Bantu Development Corporation was something apart, dealing purely with the Bantu areas, and we see that as part of a much wider question, not just a Coloured one but a much wider question dealing with the whole question of the small business man in the matter of encouraging them. In other words, we think the new principle is whether the State should or should not provide aid, financial and otherwise, for a small business man of any race through the medium of existing financial non-racial institutions, possibly adapted in some way to enable them to carry out their functions. We do not believe that in order to encourage the economic development and progress of the Coloured people, this hiving-off process is either necessary or desirable. I think we have a very good example in the history of the Fisheries Development Corporation, which came into being under a purely non-racial Act, dealing with an industry employing Europeans and non-Europeans, and with ramifications including large numbers of private people owning fishing boats and so on. and there we have seen, in the operations of that Corporation, how the Coloured people have been helped to an astonishing degree, not because they were Coloured people, but as part of the general community and as members of an industry. We do not believe that a rise in the economic position and the taking of a larger share in the economic life of the country by the Coloured people necessarily entails hiving them off and putting them into a separate kraal. Apart from the principle of the Bill, Sir, there are many aspects of it which require careful consideration. The Minister referred to the question of industrial development. The Bill provides that this assistance may be given for the establishment of Coloured industries in the European areas. If I understood the Minister correctly, he was going to circumvent the provisions of the Group Areas Act by providing that the Corporation will be able to buy and acquire properties in a European industrial area and lease them to Coloured companies. So we have in the provisions of the Bill something which seeks to cut across completely the whole policy announced by the Government. To give an example, you may find a shoe factory owned by a European, and next door you may find the establishment of a shoe factory owned by a Coloured company, financed and assisted by the Corporation. That Coloured company will obviously not be subject to job reservation. It will borrow its money and possibly the whole of its capital free of interest in terms of this Bill; it will have no capital charges, and what is more, I think if it is going to be a factory of any size, it is quite clear that in the early stages of existence it will have to employ Europeans to get the factory established. There are many aspects and implications in this Bill, therefore, which nobody has really had time to study. I can only say that we find this Bill repugnant to our firm belief that the Coloured community are part and parcel of the White economy, and that they should be helped on that basis. I do not for one moment question the good intentions of the Minister or his desire to assist the Coloured community, but I do not believe that he is on the right lines. We think that a much better Bill could be produced, a Bill which would not single out the Coloured people, but which would include them in a wider measure designed to assist the smaller business man of any race; because, Sir, there are small business men, White. Indian, Coloured and Native, and why should the Government—I know that this Minister is responsible particularly for the Coloured people—why should the Government single out the Coloured people for this new principle? If it is going to be done, surely it should be done for everybody on a non-racial basis. I therefore propose to move the following amendment—

To omit all the words after ‘That” and to substitute “this House declines to pass the Second Reading of the Coloured Development Corporation Bill unless and until the Government gives an assurance that it will—

1. (a) develop the economic interests of the Coloured people as an integral part of the economic community as a whole; and
2. (b) provide financial assistance to develop a class of Coloured businessmen and industrialists as part of a bigger scheme to give financial and other assistance to small businessmen of all races”.

I second.

The hon. member for Constantia (Mr. Waterson) welcomes the attempt on the part of the Government to assist the Coloureds, but then we get the usual “but” from the United Party. He says this attempt is not enough. I am sure nobody in this House will contend that it is enough. It is a beginning and it is true that it is a small beginning, but all good things have a small beginning, and those good things that had a small beginning are the things that develop into something great and magnificent. The hon. member has been very open-hearted this afternoon. He said that if the United Party came into power they would abolish the Ministry of Coloured Affairs because it was unsound economically and politically. The hon. member and that party actually want to abolish the Department of Coloured Affairs and a Minister of Coloured Affairs to attend to their interests—and they are making tremendous progress—this institution which really means something to the Coloured community in this country. It was very clear when the hon. member spoke here that he was longing for the days when there was a common roll which offered him and his party the fleshpots of Egypt. However, that common roll which also forms the subject matter of the amendment moved by the hon. member, did absolutely nothing for the Coloureds in South Africa. I am convinced that the average Coloured in this country does not wish for the return of that old order, because that old order did not offer the Coloured person any opportunities. That is a fact which no hon. member on that side of the House can deny. There is not a single outstanding Coloured person to-day in the commercial or industrial world. I cannot think of one. That is why I say that the Coloured people definitely do not long for the return of the old order. We recently had an election and this side of the House won. We shall be here for the next five years to continue to apply that declared policy of the Government and of the National Party, namely, separate development. We are definitely not going to mark time. We should like to bring something into being for the Coloured, something that will be worth while to him, and we ask members on that side of the House in all sincerity—and we have the right to do so—to assist us in this attempt. I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on the clear way in which this Bill is worded. It does not happen every day that legal language is as understandable as the language used in this Bill. This Bill forms part of the socio-economic plan of the Government as announced by the Prime Minister. Last year already this corporation was envisaged by the Minister of Finance in his Budget speech. I think it should be clear to everybody in this House and in the country by now, that this is a Government of action, a Government that carries out its promises. This Bill which is before us to-day is proof of that. For the first time in their history, this Bill makes it possible for the Coloured people to enter upon the commercial and industrial terrains. In relation to its numbers and its total income, the Coloured group is the most backward and the most neglected group in South Africa. As I said a moment ago there are no trained Coloured people who can perform the essential services in the field that lies fallow before them, namely, the commercial and industrial field, and I attribute that to the policy which that side of the House applied in the past as far as the Coloured community were concerned. There is little in the commercial field that the Coloured persons can call their own and nothing in the industrial field. This Bill is the first attempt to put that matter right, and to give them a foundation on which to start. All the principles in this Bill centre round this fact. There are large tracts of land that belong to the Coloureds and that will ultimately be occupied by them. Practically every town in the Cape Province has a large Coloured community which, as a result of our history and the provisions of the Group Areas Act, live in separate residential areas. We have a third terrain and that is the Coloured cities which are fast coming into existence and developing.

Mr. Speaker, it must be a revelation to anybody to visit the new Coloured city which is developing on the Cape Flats. I am referring to Bonteheuwel. Just look at the growth that we have there of the Coloureds as an urban community and as city dwellers within their own urban areas. Thirteen schools are envisaged for that single area. It is a fact, however, that trade in that area is not in the hands of the Coloureds. It is in the hands of strangers. I repeat, there is nobody amongst the Coloured people who has the knowledge and the money to go in for trade and for that reason we welcome this attempt on the part of the Government to give them a share in the commercial activities in their own area. This Bill also makes it possible for the Coloured people to share in some of the profits derived from trade. From the nature of things this corporation will in future enable those Coloureds who display initiative to take over businesses within their own areas, businesses which are to-day owned and controlled by incompetent people. They do not have the money to-day. Those incompetent people who own businesses in their residential areas can then be bought out by them, that is why this corporation has been established, namely, to assist those people and to make it possible for them to establish their own businesses. The corporation is a State institution, and its funds are public funds. That is why it is right that the corporation should be State-controlled and that the directorate should be designated by the State President. It is necessary, as a result of the lack on the part of the Coloured community of any knowledge of finance, that there should be a White directorate and that this directorate should give financial and technical assistance in particular, when it comes to taking over and establishing businesses. The Bill makes ample provision for safeguarding the public money which the Government is investing in the corporation. From the nature of things everybody should agree that should be so. I also think that everybody in this House ought to approve of the clause which lays down that Members of Parliament or members of the Provincial Council cannot be members of the directorate. When the Bantu Industrial Development Corporation Bill was introduced in 1959 the hon. member for Kensington (Mr. Moore) moved a special amendment to the effect that the Government should not allow Members of Parliament or member of the Provincial Council to become directors.

And it was not accepted.

Seeing that most of the officials will be Coloured people, this Bill is creating new avenues of employment for the members of our Coloured community. This Bill should be regarded as the establishment of a financial training institution for the Coloureds, a training centre with service as its motive. I say it is only a small beginning, but all good things in life start on a small scale. I want to express the hope that the hon. the Minister will not wait too long before he establishes a subsidiary company with a predominantly Coloured board of directors, a company which will give the opportunity to the Coloured community to invest their private capital in that company and in doing so contribute towards the development of their own business life. I want to go further: This Bill lays down what the dividend, the interest on capital, should be. It may not be more than 5 per cent. That, too, is to assist the Coloured person. There are some White people who have a great deal to say about what should be done for the Coloured people and how it should be done. I want to make this request to the Minister that when this subsidiary company is formed and he has appointed a Coloured directorate which will collect the private capital of the Coloureds for investment, the opportunity should be given to those wealthy White people who made their money out of the Coloured people in the past, to turn their words of the past into action; they should be given an opportunity of investing their money at 5 per cent per annum in that Coloured corporation so as to assist the Coloureds.

I would like to say immediately that my colleagues propose to give our support to the second reading of this Bill. We have given this matter the most careful consideration and we have come to the unanimous conclusion that this Bill, having as its objective the principles set out in the long title, which I will refer to in a moment, must be supported by those of us who represent the Coloured people of this country. I would also like to say that in coming to that conclusion we have weighed most carefully the arguments which have been presented here by the hon. member for Constantia (Mr. Waterson) and whilst we agree that many of those arguments are valid arguments, worthy of the utmost consideration by this House, we feel that we can best serve the interests of the Coloured people who we represent in this House by supporting the second reading of the Bill.

This Bill envisages the establishment of a corporation for the purpose of encouraging and promoting the advancement of the Coloured people of this country in the field of industry, trade, and finance, and to provide for incidental matters connected therewith. We feel that it would be quite wrong for us who for many years now have pleaded with the Government to bring about some tangible benefits for the Coloured people in this country, to fail to give our support to this measure. We view this Bill as a direct step on the part of the Government to help the Coloureds develop in the economic field in this country. Before I go any further I want to say this: I shall deal with the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Constantia presently, but I want to say that the Coloured people of South Africa have for long been regarded as South Africa’s step-children, and at long last we have a measure which sets out to advance our Coloured people in the field of industry and trade and finance. It is a measure which we consider is long overdue, and however much we regret that this step was not taken in conjunction with a decision to support and give assistance to small businessmen of all races, we feel that it would be quite wrong for us to reject this Bill at the present juncture as far as the Coloured people are concerned. I want to say immediately that I can quite understand the contentions submitted to this House by the hon. member for Constantia who in effect has said that he and his party regard this measure as a further development of the Government’s apartheid policy and has also said in effect that there already exists in this country Government institutions like the Industrial Development Corporation and other institutions which could undertake this type of work for the Coloured people. I agree with him wholeheartedly when he says that this work could be undertaken by these other institutions, but unfortunately the fact remains that despite the fact that the Industrial Development Corporation has been in existence in South Africa for many years now, not a single step has been taken by the I.D.C. to give effect to what the hon. member for Constantia has in mind, and that is to help the Coloured people in the commercial and industrial fields. Indeed, Sir, I doubt whether the present constitution of the I.D.C. empowers that Corporation to help the Coloured people on the lines indicated in this Bill. I doubt whether they have the power.

We know from experience that the Industrial Development Corporation only will enter into a venture when a concern is already established and if it is obvious to them that concern can only further prosper if additional capital is forthcoming. I know of very few instances where the Industrial Development Corporation has initiated any industry or any commercial undertaking and I am inclined to the view that under their constitution at present at any rate it would not be permissible for them to give effect to what is intended in this Bill, that is to encourage and to promote the advancement of the Coloured people in the industrial and commercial field. Therefore I say that however much one regrets that the Government has not utilized existing institutions with the object of helping the Coloureds in common with other sections of our community, I feel that in present circumstances, and particularly in view of the fact that there is a great doubt as to whether any such institutions exist, we would be quite wrong in rejecting this tangible step of the Government to try and help the Coloured people to advance in the economic field of this country.

We know from experience in South Africa that for many years there have been sections of the Coloured people who have endeavoured to make progress in the economic field. But theirs has been a very difficult task. They have made very little headway. We know that there are in the country isolated cases, one or two traders among the Coloured people, who by dint of hard work have established businesses, but they have not been able to develop in the way they should have developed as a responsible section of our community. The reason has been that through their economic position it has been impossible for these people to raise sufficient capital to enable them to advance in the economic field. Those of us who are connected with the Coloured people, professionally and politically, can tell this House that it is extremely difficult, particularly in these days where all the unfortunate apartheid laws are imposed upon those people, for them to raise any capital at all, despite the fact that in many instances they are prepared to bond their own properties for the purpose. It is almost impossible for a Coloured man to-day to raise sufficient money by way of mortgage facilities. Now and again certain building societies will make a small portion of their funds available for that purpose. But by and large it is almost impossible for Coloured people to raise the necessary capital. It is only through the goodwill of some well-disposed Europeans that they are sometimes able to raise the necessary capital. I mention this as an indication of the extreme difficulties experienced by the Coloured people if they are anxious to make any headway at all in the economic field in this country. Therefore we feel that the only way in which they can get assistance is by means of Government help, and I want to say also that for several years now my colleagues and I have pleaded in this House with the Government for the establishment of some sort of development corporation which will have the funds available to enable the Coloured people to make progress in the economic field without having to have recourse to bonding their own property and being confronted with all the difficulties which I have already mentioned.

We feel that however much we hesitate in being a party to the advancement of the Government’s apartheid policy, it is our bounden duty to support any measure which is likely to bring beneficial results to the Coloured people. We feel that this Bill has good intentions as far as the Coloured people are concerned and in the circumstances we want to give it our support.

Whilst supporting the principle of the Bill, I want to avail myself of this opportunity of pointing out to the hon. the Minister that there are certain aspects of this proposed corporation which must be dealt with by the Government. in the most careful manner possible, if the success which the hon. the Minister envisages is to be achieved. There are certain aspects that have to be considered, and one of the most important is for the hon. the Minister and this Corporation to ensure that under no circumstances must there be established two economies in this country. I think it is absolutely essential to avoid the establishment of two economies at all cost.

That is not the intention.

There must be a continuance of an integrated economy in South Africa. Every sound national economy is based on this very principle and if the hon. the Minister deviates from this in any way at all, his whole scheme is doomed to failure and he will bring about a great deal of chaos in this country. I have said on many previous occasions in this House that the position of the Coloured people is so interwoven economically with the Europeans, particularly in the Cape, that it would be absolutely fatal for the Minister to do anything whereby two economies would be established.

There is another aspect to which I hope the hon. the Minister will also give his careful consideration, and that is that the hon. the Minister must take every possible care to ensure that the Coloured industrial or commercial undertakings envisaged under this scheme are guided into this integrated economy. The Coloured leaders themselves will admit that their people require European guidance. Unfortunately they have not been able to develop by reason of the invidious position in which they found themselves economically in this country; they have been unable to develop their own industries and to carry on their own industries and to develop on a commercial basis. Of necessity they will have to get European guidance, and it is absolutely essential for the hon. the Minister to ensure that in respect of any financial help that is given in the promotion of a given industry, this European guidance will be forthcoming. I say that the Coloured people themselves would welcome such guidance. They realize that they need such guidance in order to make a success of such undertakings. I hope that the hon. the Minister in his reply to the second reading debate will say in emphatic terms that it will be his policy to ensure that there will be this European guidance, and I am sure such an announcement will be welcomed by the Coloured leaders and the Coloured people in general.

I want to deal with one or two of the provisions of this Bill and I hope to make constructive suggestions to the hon. the Minister and I hope the hon. the Minister will bear in mind these representations and if possible accept amendments at a later stage. Clause 2 of the Bill establishes this corporate body which will be known as the Coloured Development Corporation; then Clause 9 establishes the Board of Directors of this corporation. The hon. the Minister says in effect in this clause that the affairs of the corporation will be controlled by this board of directors and that the numbers will be fixed by the State President in due course and that the directors will be selected by him for their ability and experience in business and administration and their knowledge of the requirements of the Coloured people and their suitability and otherwise to act as directors. But in Clause 9 (4) (b) the hon. the Minister goes on to say that matters may be submitted to him from time to time and any decision given by the hon. the Minister shall be a final decision as if it were a decision of the board. Now the effect of this may be, and I hope that is not the intention, that this board will be nothing else but a subservient board of directors to the hon. the Minister. I am glad the hon. the Minister shakes his head, indicating that is not the intention, because if there is one thing that is absolutely essential, it is to ensure that this Board will consist of businessmen who will have the necessary knowledge of the position of the Coloureds in this country and who would be able to use their unfettered discretion in giving help wherever help is necessary to such Coloured industries. I submit it would be quite wrong for the hon. the Minister to intervene and to make decisions in matters of that sort with a disregard to recommendations of that duly appointed board of directors.

Dealing with the board of directors, I want to make this suggestion to the hon. the Minister. I want to ask him whether he and the Government have given any consideration at all to the possibility of appointing to this Board one or two of the Coloured leaders. I suggest that it would be a tremendous advancement in regard to the policy of this Government if they were to give very serious consideration to the appointment to this Board of one or two of the Coloured leaders who would act in co-operation with other European industrialists who are going to be appointed on this Board. It would give a tremendous amount of encouragement and would bring about a great deal of goodwill between the Coloured people and this board of directors. I very seriously recommend to the hon. the Minister to give careful consideration to my suggestion that there should be appointed to this Board one or two Coloured men to sit with the other people who he has in mind as directors of this corporation. It is quite obvious that whilst the hon. the Minister surely will appoint to this Board gentlemen well versed in commerce and industry, no one can have a better knowledge of the requirements of the Coloured people than the Coloured leaders themselves. There is no doubt in my mind that the corporation will be inundated from time to time with appeals from all sections of the Coloured community for financial help in regard to ventures submitted from time to time, and I say that the hon. the Minister would render a service to the corporation and would contribute largely to the success of the corporation if he were to favourably consider the appointment of one or two of the Coloured leaders as directors.

Another thing that I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister is the possibility of considering that the affairs of this company should not be audited by ordinary auditors appointed by the hon. the Minister, but that their affairs should come under the control of the Controller and Auditor-General. This would at least maintain a liaison between Parliament and the corporation. It is true that the hon. the Minister has undertaken to supply Parliament from time to time with information in regard to the activities of this corporation, but I am inclined to the view that a wider coverage of that information would take place if the hon. the Minister would take into consideration the appointment of the Controller and Auditor-General as the department auditing the affairs of the corporation.

My colleagues and I welcome very much the provisions contained in Clause 11 of the Bill whereunder the hon. the Minister has undertaken that no member of either House of Parliament, nor a member of the Provincial Council will be appointed as a director of this corporation. I think it is a very wise provision on the part of the Minister because at all cost this corporation must be kept free from all political gerrymandering whatsoever. I hope the hon. the Minister will appoint to the Board, men well versed in industry and commerce in our country, Afrikaans- and English-speaking. and that he will allow one or two Coloured people to gain experience on this Board in order to achieve the success of this corporation in a comparatively short time.

There are one or two other provisions that we will deal with in Committee, but to possibly save time later, I want to mention a few of these provisions so that the hon. the Minister can give the matter some consideration before we come to the Committee Stage. In terms of Clause 4, which deals with the powers of the corporation, it is laid down that the corporation may acquire an interest in any business of a Coloured person or a Coloured company. Now in terms of the definition clause, a “Coloured company” is defined as a company in which all the shares are held by Coloureds and it includes any association of persons of which only Coloureds are members. Now, Sir, I think, with respect, that this is an unwise restriction. We must remember that generally speaking, as I pointed out, the Coloureds have no experience in business. It may be necessary initially for this corporation to acquire a majority shareholding in an existing business for the Coloured people; it may be in the interests of the Coloured people that the minority shareholding should be left in the hands of the European shareholders. I suggest that as long as the majority shareholding is taken over by this corporation for Coloured shareholders, it would be doing a service to the majority shareholders in many instances if some minority European shareholding were left in the business, so as to give these people the guidance they need. I suggest therefore that the hon. the Minister may give consideration to an amendment of the definition of “Coloured company”. This would give these people the guidance they need. Surely it is not necessary that all the shareholding should be in the hands of Coloureds. There may be many businesses, European-controlled, in Coloured areas, which this corporation may wish to acquire, and I think initially it would be sufficient if the corporation acquired a controlling interest for the Coloured people.

Dealing with the necessity of having one integrated economy, I want to mention to the hon. the Minister the great danger that exists and I want to urge the hon. the Minister to take adequate precautions in that regard. One can well imagine that Coloured industrialists with the assistance of this corporation might make a very great intrusion on White enterprises in this country, White enterprises that have been built up here with White capital and a joint force of White and Coloured labour. The hon. the Minister will have to take adequate precautions in that regard; otherwise the situation may arise where Coloured people with financial assistance obtained from this corporation establish an industry to the tremendous detriment of already established European industries.

The Bill no doubt has very good intentions and for that reason we support it. We feel that the hon. the Minister should incorporate in this Bill some of the safeguards which I have brought to his notice, and we urge that particularly in regard to the integrated economy he will be on his guard so as to avoid chaos in European industries.

Whilst therefore we regard this as a positive step in the interest of the Coloured people, we are going to support the second reading. But I do want the hon. the Minister not to think for a single moment that this Bill in any way removes the objections which the Coloured people rightly have against discriminatory laws applied to them. This is not the time for me to discuss that aspect, but it would be quite wrong for me not to say that whilst the Coloured people regard this as a tangible step for the advancement of the Coloured people in the economic field, this must not by any means be regarded by the Government as removing the very serious objections the Coloured people have to the discriminatory laws which have unnecessarily been inflicted upon them in recent years. They still feel that they are being harshly and unfairly treated as citizens of South Africa. The Government must not be misled into the belief that this Bill will in any way remove that justifiable anti-Government feeling existing among the Coloured people. On the other hand by reason of the fact that we on these benches have appealed to the Government to proceed with a measure of this sort, by reason of the fact that we feel that this Bill has good intentions, and by reason of the fact that we believe that the hon. the Minister is out to assist the Coloured people, we as representatives of the Coloured people in this House are prepared to support the second reading of this Bill.

Let me preface my remarks by saying that nobody wishes to stand in the way of encouraging and promoting the advancement of the Coloured people, or the people who are grouped as Coloureds in South Africa. When therefore I oppose the Bill, I do so, not because it relates to Coloured people, but because it is yet another attempt by the Government to enforce economic apartheid for ideological reasons.

The hon. member for Constantia (Mr. Waterson) has pointed out that the provisions of at least two Acts, the Industrial Development Corporation Act and the Fisheries Development Act, are wide enough and general enough to promote the economic and business advancement of all sections of the community. If there is need to amplify the provisions of those measures to include still a wider range of activity and to achieve the purposes which the hon. the Minister has in mind, well and good; that would be a matter of general application and would add to the whole scheme of assistance which bodies such as the Industrial Development Corporation and the Fisheries Development Corporation are designed to provide.

I can sympathise with the fears and sentiments of the Coloured persons represented by the hon. member for Peninsula (Mr. Bloomberg), but, Sir, we should look at this matter from a long-term point of view. I am sure that if we do that, if we try and base our viewpoint on sound principle and realistic practice, the hon. member for Peninsula also will agree that you have to face this fact: You cannot enlarge a country’s wealth or enlarge the freedom of the economic choice of its people by sectional legislation of this kind; legislation which inevitably is going to bring about the fragmentation rather than the consolidation of the economy; legislation which is going to do the very thing the hon. member for Peninsula fears, namely to bring about two economies. That is the basic reason why I raise to oppose the proposition and to try and set it in a better perspective.

I think it is reasonable to assume that this additional step towards economic apartheid will operate mainly in the Western and South-Western Cape districts. A very noticeable circumstance therefore is that this Bill is being introduced—“a Bill to establish a Coloured Development Corporation”—by the Minister of Coloured Affairs at the very time when the Cape Chambers of Commerce have submitted to the Minister of Economic Affairs a memorandum asking the Government to take steps to counter the prevailing economic stagnation that has arisen in these very selfsame districts in the Western and South-Western areas. It is a noticeable circumstance, because in the first place the Chambers of Commerce in putting forward suggestions for stimulating business in those districts, have quite naturally given consideration to the interests of the community as a whole. They are not suggesting dividing up the economy into seperate water-tight compartments, as this Bill envisages. Secondly, I say, that the appearance of these two sets of proposals at more or less the same time also serves, to emphasize the incongruous and absurd position (to quote from the preamble of the Bill) “that the advancement of the Coloured people in the field of industry, trade and finance”, should be in the hands of a Ministry of Coloured Affairs, whilst the advancement of the rest of the community in those selfsame fields of industry, trade and finance should be in the hands of the Ministry of Economic Affairs.

Sir, assuming that this Ministry of Coloured Affairs will be as competent and will be as well equipped professionally and administratively as the Ministry of Economic Affairs in the field of industry, trade and finance (something which I seriously question) then I say what a wasteful and senseless dissipation of available forces is taking place in the Public Service. What a costly duplication of services in order to try to separate the inseparable! Here again I want to emphasize one thing which is clear the world over, namely that industry, trade and finance know no colour bars and they cannot be forced into racial strait-jackets.

They are breaking them off themselves.

Sir. the Bill is almost an exact counterpart of the Bantu Investment Corporation Act of 1959, but there is this significant difference: Whilst that Act is operative only in parts of South Africa, in the so-called Bantu areas, this Bill now before us, when it becomes law, will be operative in the whole of South Africa, or perhaps I should wisely add, in so much of South Africa as may still be left when it comes into operation. Paradoxically however the Bantu counterpart of this Corporation is called “the Bantu Investment Corporation of South Africa Limited,” whereas this newly proposed body is simply to be known as the “Coloured Development Corporation, Ltd”. In other words, the Coloured community is to be “in”, but not “of” South Africa. I say that is a mockery and a. slight to human dignity.

It is quite evident that the country having been set firmly on the road of patch-work political units, we are now obviously on the road to patch-work economic units as well. The House has already been warned that this is not the end of the Government’s patch-work for the disintegration of the country’s economy on purely racial grounds. A similar sort of development corporation for the Transkei is in contemplation and the principle, if it be a principle, or at least the process of economic disintegration has therefore to go one degree lower in the ideological scale; it will go from the racial level to the tribal level. When the counterpart of this Bill, the Bantu Investment Corporation Bill, was under consideration in this House, I referred to an article by Prof. S. H. Franckel on “Illusion and Reality in Africa” which had appeared in Optima of December, 1957. In that article Professor Franckel made a comparison between the real pyramid-building in Egypt under the authority of the Pharoahs of old and the ideological pyramid-building in this country under the authority of a new dynasty of Pharoahs. He suggested that the outcome of both was a monument to “efforts that could have been better devoted to better purposes”. Whatever the cost to the Egyptians for their monument may have been, the real cost in our case, he said, would be “economic misery and political and psychological discontent”. And, Sir, he has not yet been proved wrong and might well be proved right. Mindful, however, of the silence that surrounds the operations and the activities of the Bantu Investment Corporation, a more apt comparison in that case might well have been with the Egyptian Sphinx, because this House has got remarkably little information in regard to the activities of that body. I agree with the hon. member for Peninsula when he suggests that the audit provisions of the Bill should be looked at and where he says that he hopes that the Minister will give it consideration, to entrusting that duty to the Controller and Auditor-General. We certainly do not want another Sphinx, even if in fact we must have another ideological pyramid. Parliament and the public are entitled to the fullest information in the way in which public funds in the hands of a body such as this are being used. I do not suggest, Sir, that the funds are not being correctly used. But I believe that the information as to how they are being used, should be available to this House. You see it should be available to this House in particular, Sir, and the information in regard to it should come from the House’s own representative, that is from the Controller and Auditor-General. I hope, therefore, that the principle which is contained in Clause 20 will be reviewed and that consideration will be given to the point of view expressed by the hon. member for Peninsula. Provision should be made that will entitle the audit to be entrusted to the Controller and Auditor-General. No injustice will be done to the registered accountant and auditor if that is done. Legislative provision already exists which enables the Controller and Auditor-General to use the services of registered accountants and auditors and in fact he does do so. But if that step is taken, the Minister will be rendering a great service to Parliament and will help Parliament to preserve the prerogatives which are rightly Parliament’s, namely having control over public funds in the hands of bodies such as this.

The acid test of the sincerity of this corporation in carrying out the objects of the legislation, however, will depend largely on how the principle contained in Clause 6 is carried out. Clause 6 is the clause which gives additional powers to the Corporation in connection with the safeguarding of its investments. The powers proposed in this clause are exceedingly wide and the principle contained in the clause as it now reads is a dangerous one to my mind. Apparently the Corporation is not only going to be a judge in its own cause, but it is also empowered to execute against that judgment which it has given in its own favour. You see, Sir, it is one thing to give permissive powers to the Corporation to carry out certain additional tasks, but it is a very different matter to make those powers obligatory and then to bind anyone who may be dealing with the Corporation. I do not want to go into detail; I am concerned only with the principle contained in the clause. But in my view the powers contained in Clause 6 go too far. They are in fact obligatory instead of being only permissive. I hope the hon. the Minister, in his reply, will deal with that aspect of the matter and give us some information in regard to it.

I also want to deal briefly with the principles contained in a few other clauses. The safeguards provided for in Clause 8 which limits the borrowing powers of the Corporation, are satisfactory, but I do think that they ignore the authority of Parliament. I think some recognition should be given to the position there to respect the authority of Parliament in regard to these matters as well. The hon. the Minister has referred to the principle contained in subclause 12 (3) which entitles a director to get paid, or receive remuneration, for anything he does on behalf of the Corporation in addition to being a director of that Corporation. I think that is a dangerous principle and at this stage I will say no more than that it also seems to open the door to abuse. That too is one of the provisions which I hope the hon. the Minister will carefully look at and deal with in his reply.

Finally, I end as I commenced, by saying that I oppose this Bill not for what it purports to do but for what it does. Taking a longterm point of view, Sir, it will bring about the fragmentation of the economy of our country. It will do the very thing which the hon. member to whom I have referred before, fears it will bring about. I say the only way in which a country can under-pin the economic security of its people and ensure rising standards of living for most, if not for all, is to enlarge the scope of economic opportunities for everyone and not to canalize them racially or arbitrarily as this Bill sets out to do. For those reasons, Sir, I will vote against the second reading.

Mr. Speaker, the objects of this Bill are to encourage and promote the progress of the Coloured in the industrial, economic and financial fields. All of us who know the Coloured community, know that it is very far behind in many fields, but especially so in the economic sphere. Even compared with the Bantu, the Coloured has accomplished very little in the economic and industrial fields. The Coloured has made his mark in the sphere of education, and even in other professions. But in the business world he is very far behind, and economic upliftment constitutes the basis for overcoming so many of the problems that we have with our Coloured population.

It has been said here that this Bill is in accordance with the declared policy of the Government with regard to socio-economic development. It also derives from a request made by the Union Coloured Advisory Council. The hon. member for South Peninsula (Mr. Bloomberg) has said that he and his colleagues have repeatedly requested the institution of such an undertaking and that they therefore support this legislation because they regard it as a positive step in the interests of the community that they represent here. Therefore all who have the Coloureds’ interests at heart and who have sincere intentions in respect of this community must welcome this legislation enthusiastically.

This undertaking is of very great importance to the Coloured community. At the right time it will open new doors to the Coloureds, because it coincides with the establishment of group areas, separate residential areas for the Coloureds and the various races, and because there will be real development of these areas, which in many respects are new areas; and in his own areas, where he will be protected against the competition of other groups which are financially strong, he now gains the opportunity, in his own interests and those of his community, to engage in activities in a sphere in which he has in the past had very little chance to participate.

Unlike the hon. member for Constantia (Mr. Waterson) who said he did not believe it was necessary to segregate the Coloureds in order to allow them to take part in economic life, I believe that it is precisely this assistance that they are being given which will be of particularly great importance to them because it will be given to them and they will put it to practical use in their own areas. I believe that were it not for separate areas for the Coloureds assistance of this kind at this time would count for very little. But under this Bill the Coloured is also to be given the opportunity to establish and to acquire industrial undertakings in defined industrial areas which are not specifically set aside for Coloureds or for any particular race. That is why we support this legislation and that is why the Coloured representatives also support this Bill. But the United Party opposes it because, according to the hon. member for Constantia, it does not fit in with the United Party’s policy of economic integration. Irrespective of what advantages it offers the Coloured community, the United Party’s standpoint is clear: economic integration for the Coloured or nothing. By giving them an increasing share in business life, it will also be possible to reduce the frustration which many Coloureds feel.

Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this Bill is, among other things, to stimulate the interest of the Coloured in business life. The Coloured has business acumen. We have only to consider the great numbers of Coloured hawkers in the Cape Peninsula to realize that they really have business acumen. But what the Coloured lacks is that he is not enterprising in the business world. He attempts many things, but he does not do so in the business field. And we will only awaken his interest if we actively draw him into commerce. But the great need which exists and which this legislation deals with is the Coloured’s lack of capital to start business undertakings and to participate in commerce. That is why this Corporation is being established, to lay the foundations upon which we can start building.

But we must also develop the Coloured’s sense of thrift. Unlike the Bantu, who is often too parsimonious to eat, it is a characteristic of the Coloured that he cannot keep money. It burns a hole in his pocket. Under the guidance of the Coloured Corporation, Coloured companies can now be founded to encourage a sense of thrift in the Coloured and to mobilize his savings and use them productively. The acquisition of technical knowledge, of which he is also in need, will be made possible by this legislation. The Coloured will acquire it and through it he can be guided; he will be able to get advice, as provided for in Clause 4. The Coloured will have to be trained and guided in these new fields which he will have to enter. It will be a gradual and a slow process. But it is especially necessary that the machinery should exist, as provided for in this legislation, so that the economic interests of the Coloured, what he possesses and what he may acquire with the help of this legislation, will be protected just as we protect his other interests among others, his interests in his own rural areas.

It is not the intention of this legislation that money should be doled out left and right in an irresponsible and wasteful fashion to Coloureds to set up their businesses. I do not believe in that, because just as the Afrikaner waged a hard struggle to achieve what he has achieved in the economic field, so I believe the Coloured must also be led step by step. There will be strict supervision; there will be controls. The Corporation will not simply be able to lend money left and right. Limits are being set. In Clause 8 the Bill lays down the restriction that no debt or loan may be greater than the number of paid-up shares and the reserve fund added together. In Clause 6 the Corporation is given the right to protect money which it has in commercial undertakings, in which Coloureds have interests, by appointing a director to the directorate or a manager or trustee or administrator, where it has invested a sum of money which it believes it must protect. There will be controls and supervision. Unlike the hon. member for Peninsula who thinks that the Board of the Corporation may act for the Minister only in an advisory capacity, I believe that Clause 9 (4) merely prevents the Board of the Corporation from taking decisions on matters of policy without having obtained the approval of the Minister.

Mr. Speaker, there is even provision made for the Government to draw interest on its money, that is, on the money that it puts into the Corporation. Clause 18 (2) provides for the payment of interest. We do not simply want to give these people money, to shower money upon them. Mr. Speaker, in supporting this Bill I am not urging that the Coloured should be precipitately forced into fields that are unknown to him. All that I ask for is an opportunity for the Coloureds to acquire a share in commerce and industry, especially in their own areas and for the necessary guidance and encouragement and protection of those interests. If we do that for the least among us, Mr. Speaker, it will be to the credit of our sense of justice.

The hon. member who has just sat down and the hon. the Minister in introducing this Bill, have made the point—as indeed the hon. member for Peninsula (Mr. Bloomberg) did in supporting this Bill—that the Coloured people had great difficulty in amassing sufficient capital in order to undertake trade and industrial ventures generally. The hon. member for Malmesbury (Mr. van Staden) thought, of course, that one of the major objections that the hon. member for Constantia (Mr. Waterson) had in opposing this Bill, was that the amount provided for by this Bill, that is the R500,000, was not sufficient. I must point out, Sir, in passing that the amount provided for, of course, is one-quarter the amount asked for by the Government-nominated member, Mr. Dolley, of the Union Council for Coloured Affairs. So although the hon. the Minister and the hon. member for Peninsula both tell us that this is wanted by the Coloured community—the Coloured community which they refer to any way—it is of course an amount which falls very far short of what they have asked for. But I want to assure the hon. member for Malmesbury that the objection to this Bill has nothing whatever to do with the amount provided. The Coloured community might object to the amount provided, that is, the Coloured community that say they want this Bill, although a considerable section of the Coloured community say that they do not want this Bill. One can bring evidence to show that reliable leaders among the Coloured people protest strongly against the principle of this Bill, the principle of encouraging separate economic development for the Coloured people. But any objection to the amount provided for in this Bill does not come in this House from people who are opposing this Bill but will very likely come from the Coloured community itself. The objection to the Bill, of course—my objection anyway—is twofold. The first is an objection which has already been mentioned by the official Opposition and that is that the Bill is another milestone in the creation of economically self-contained racial groups. The hon. member for Constantia did not put it in quite those words, but the effect of his words was the same. The Bill is another milestone in the creation of separate economic groups. And as such I object to it very strongly. The hon. member for Peninsula stated, in supporting the Bill, that he hoped that the Minister would guard most closely against the creation of economically segregated economies. He hoped for that, but the Bill in principle creates exactly what he is scared of and what he has asked the hon. the Minister to guard against. What he is asking for, therefore, is something incompatible. He cannot support the Bill on the one hand and on the other hand ask that the Minister guard against the creation of separate economies, because the two are mutually incompatible.

My second objection to the Bill goes perhaps even a little further and that is not only against the principle of the creation of a separate economy for the Cape Coloured people themselves, but the fact is that this Bill tackles—as the Government so often does—a symptom and not a cause. Why are the Coloured unable to create sufficient capital, to amass sufficient savings to go in for trade, and business ventures generally speaking? Sir, the reason of course is evident to everybody, and in fact the hon. member for Peninsula himself used a phrase which applies exactly to what I mean when he said that the Coloureds had not been able to develop because of the invidious position in which they found themselves. That, Sir, of course is what should be tackled; not the symptom, but the cause of the invidious position in which the Coloured people find themselves. The fact that they have been prohibited by various restrictions such as job reservation, from entering certain skilled trades and professions which will enable them to earn higher wages and enable them to save …

That is United Party policy.

I do not care whether this is United Party policy or Government policy. The fact is that the Coloured people find themselves in an invidious position.

What have you done for them?

I have not done anything for them yet, Mr. Speaker, but I will one day be in a position to do something for them and then I shall do it.

Has that not always been the case?

That is irrelevant. The point is that if the Government is in earnest about doing something for the Coloured people as a whole, then the Government should be applying itself to removing the restrictions and difficulties which have been placed in the way of the Coloured community from developing into a proper part of the economic life of this country. Those restrictions, of course, are obvious. We have such restrictions as job reservation, and as far as trade is concerned, restrictions such as the Group Areas Act. The manner in which the hon. the Minister thinks he is going to alleviate this problem is to allow this corporation sometimes to acquire property in areas for Coloured people in areas which in fact have not been set aside for the Coloured people themselves.

Where do you get that from?

The hon. the Minister said so himself.

Ask the hon. member for Constantia.

Everybody is always wrong according to the hon. the Minister except himself.

I spoke in English; you could not have listened.

I listened very well. Even when the hon. the Minister spoke in English I listened very carefully and I understand him just as easily when he speaks English as I do when he speaks Afrikaans. The Bill does say that. I shall refer to the very clause that says that this corporation can acquire property in other areas, even in areas other than those set aside for the Coloureds. It may of course not be the Minister’s intention to overcome the Group Areas Act per se by that. I am not saying that is his intention but in fact the Bill does make provision for it. My point, Sir, is that it certainly does not overcome the major difficulties that are encountered by the Coloured community in this country in developing to their fullest extent economically. Until the hon. the Minister has done that, until he has removed the restrictions on the development of the Coloured people, until he has removed job reservation and removed group areas, I say that this Bill will do nothing to alleviate the difficulties in which the Coloured community finds itself. If the hon. the Minister is sincere about this he can use the R500,000 much more advantageously for the Coloured people in other ways. He can assist them with vocational training projects, he can assist them with educational training generally so as to make them skilled people who can, as I say, play their proper part in the economic development of this country, amass sufficient savings and go in for industrial and trading projects just like the Europeans in this country have been able to do. Because this Bill embodies enforced segregation in the economic field and because it tackles the symptoms rather than the causes of the difficulties in the way of the development of the Coloured people, I shall vote against the second reading.

I listened to the hon. member who has just sat down and I am particularly pleased to hear that the Coloured people now have a new champion. We welcome that. As Coloured Representatives we are always pleased to get recruits. I notice that our group has already increased by one and we welcome that as something constructive. I notice that the Minister is enjoying himself, but if he would cast his mind back a number of years he will remember that on 5 April 1959 I pleaded at length in this House for this very thing with which the Minister has come forward to-day.

In other words, your plea did not fall on deaf ears.

The Minister of the day simply brushed it aside. Some time afterwards, when the Bantu Development Corporation Bill was before the House, I again pleaded for it, and on that occasion the Minister said that the Coloureds could not have something similar, because they did not have a Native Trust Fund. That was the Minister’s excuse at the time, but now, three years later, the Minister has seen the light of day. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that if he listens more carefully to what comes from this little circle in the Chamber, he will make a success of his portfolio.

Something which pleases me particularly is the fact that this Bill will greatly alleviate our position as Coloured Representatives. Mr. Speaker, you would be surprised if I told you how I am being inundated practically every week of my life in my constituency by requests from Coloured people who do not have sufficient capital, people who already have the business acumen, but who do not have sufficient capital—and the first person they run to is the poor member of Parliament; and now that our salaries have been increased, they come all the more often. One’s position is absolutely untenable, but something has now happened that will be the salvation of myself and the others. I must admit that since the R500,000 was placed on the Estimates last year, I have been able to sleep much better at night because I told the people to have patience; that there was R500,000; that all they had to do was to wait a bit because before next year they would have their own Minister and their own corporation; that they should leave me in peace. As an individual I am particularly grateful for that and it will mean a great deal to the Coloured people. But we must not for one moment think that this corporation will not bump its head hard. It is going to lose a great deal of money and that is why I am particularly pleased to see that provision has also been made for people to be assisted even without security where necessary. It is not necessary for the person who can offer security to go to this corporation, because he can get assistance somewhere else. But the person who has no security to offer and who has a good proposition—and in hundreds of cases all he lacks is a little capital in order to make a success of his business—will now be assisted. I am telling the members of this corporation, and I do not care what experienced businessmen they may be, that once they get involved with Coloured people in the business world, they will bump their heads hard. It will take them a good many years before they will be able to tell which is a genuine case and who is a person on whom they can depend. They will experience many disappointments and they will place confidence in many people who will disappoint them. However, I do not want to detract from the value of this thing. You always have these disappointments, Sir, and as far as the Coloured community is concerned, it will only tend to uplift and to encourage them. That is also why I am pleased that the Minister is allowing this Corporation to take the initiative and to appoint people itself to give the lead in certain matters. As the hon. member for Peninsula (Mr. Boomberg) has said, in any type of business the Coloureds have to have the guidance of the White man. It is only by being guided over a good many years that they will be able to conduct their own businesses. It is of no avail merely providing money without providing them with the necessary guidance and knowledge and for that purpose we shall still need the White man for many years to come.

Before I sit down, I want to refer to two matters raised by the hon. member for Malmesbury (Mr. van Staden). The one was Bonteheuwel. He said that White people were establishing businesses there.

No, that is not what I said.

The fact remains that at Bonteheuwel there are only Coloured shops. No other group can erect businesses there. There are businesses there already, but provision has been made to ensure that no other group enters there. Then the hon. member said that this corporation offered a golden opportunity for those over-kind people who were always shouting that they wanted to assist the Coloureds, to assist them by investing their money at 5 per cent. But the hon. member is old enough to know that to invest your money there today at 5 per cent is not worth while. You achieve nothing by being charitable. The person who wants to be charitable towards the Coloured person, renders neither the Coloured person nor himself a service. I know them well. If only I had the money that I have lost in assisting Coloureds, it would not have been necessary for me to do another day’s work or to have sat here. But apart from this loose talk on my part, I cannot do otherwise than once again to thank the Minister for eventually having taken my advice and for the fact that this will now go on to the Statute Book. I trust that it will be successful and that it will serve its purpose.

I would like the Minister to tell us whose view will prevail. We have already had the experience with the Bantu Development Corporation that the Minister of Bantu Administration had one point of view, and the Minister of Economic Affairs had another point of view. We would like to know whose view will prevail when this Bill comes into operation.

The Government’s view.

Will it be the view of the Minister of Coloured Affairs, or that of the Minister of Economic Affairs? This Minister will have an opportunity of replying to the debate. It is all very well for him to say that it is the Government’s view which will prevail, but we have great difficulty in knowing what the Government’s view is because they speak with so many voices. We would like to know from the Minister to what extent he will provide research in his Department to ascertain whether a particular industry or business is economically desirable, and will the Minister tell us that he will collaborate with the Minister of Economic Affairs? That is a perfectly reasonable question.

The reply is quite obvious.

Yes, the Minister is very obvious in telling us the obvious things about the Bill, but he is very secretive in other matters, and I hope he will give us this reply. Our experience of the Bantu Development Corporation is such that we have great difficulty. Commerce and industry are complaining about the difficulty of getting replies from the Minister. I know from my own experience that we have great difficulty in ascertaining from the Minister of Economic Affairs in certain areas what his policy is, apart from the Minister of Bantu Administration. We have not had experience of this Minister yet. He is only starting with this matter, and I hope that we will get quicker answers from this Minister than we have got from other Ministers in the past. It is essential that we should recognize that South Africa has to be developed with one economy and here we have a Department of Coloured Affairs and a Department of Economic Affairs, both of which will have an interest in this matter, and I again ask whose view will prevail. What is going to happen is that when the Department of Coloured Affairs makes an application—will he collaborate with the Minister of Economic Affairs and will we have to wait for a Cabinet decision before anything is decided on the application? Surely we are creating little kingdoms or little departments right throughout the service, another set of officials to do the job. We already have a fairly efficient organization in the Industrial Development Corporation, which has frequently told us when applications are submitted and a request is made for a speedy reply that they cannot give the reply as speedily as they would like because they do not have the staff. Surely if the Minister of Coloured Affairs is going to investigate this matter, it will be better if he bases his research and investigations on the long experience which the I.D.C. has had. The I.D.C. has been investigating applications for many years and ascertaining the economic needs of the country. It has been bringing various interests together, both in and outside South Africa. We have the well-known example of what has been done on the Natal South Coast, where an Italian organization plus Courtaulds and the I.D.C. have developed rayon as the result of team-work. Here we have the I.D.C. set up under the Minister of Economic Affairs, with all its trained personnel and research over many years, and surely it would be much simpler to extend the operations of that organization and at the same time look after the interests of the Coloureds. Or is that not possible? And if it is not possible, will the Minister tell us why it is not possible to deal with it under the auspices of the I.D.C.? We did not find it necessary to divide the interests of the Coloured people when we established the Fisheries Development Corporation. We know the record of that Corporation in rehabilitating the Coloured people and their economic life by providing funds for the repairs and renewal of boats, housing, etc. Many families on the Cape coast were saved as the result of the work done by that Corporation. There was no need to have a separate organization there. Will the Minister allow this Coloured Investment Corporation to go into the fishing industry, or will all fishing matters still be referred automatically to the Fisheries Development Corporation? Or does the Minister propose to have another body dealing with fishing in the Coloured Development Corporation? The Minister tells us that he intends to provide for a board of directors. Will he tell us whether all these directors of the Coloured Corporation will be White, or will they be Coloured? That is a pertinent question. Perhaps the Minister will again say that is obvious. Will they be Coloured, or White, or mixed? This provision for the Coloured Corporation to appoint members to the boards of companies—is it the intention of the Minister to appoint a director for a Coloured business where such a business has been helped by funds from this Corporation? And when they appoint a director to sit on that board, will he be Coloured or White? And if he is White and he is sitting on the board of a Coloured company, will that be all right according to Government policy? I would like to know.

Then Clause 6 of the Bill provides that if the Corporation thinks it necessary to safeguard any investment made by it, it may act as a director. Will the Minister tell us whether it will be permissible under the Companies’ Act, or whether he contemplates amending the Companies’ Act to provide for the Corporation being a director? Because the Companies’ Act precludes a corporate body from being a director of a company. Will the Minister ask the Minister of Economic Affairs to alter the Companies’ Act in that respect?

The Minister has the right to appoint an auditor. Will he table the accounts and the auditor’s report? Will he allow discussion of the funds in this House, or will it be secret? We are concerned with the Minister’s reply that it will be obviously be done. We want it to be obvious. We have seen what happens in these utility corporations. As the years pass, we have less and less opportunity to discuss them and to criticize them. There is virtually an iron curtain behind the work done by these various organizations and we will not know, unless there is provision in the statute which will make it obligatory to table the accounts and the reports in this House.

Have you read Clause 21?

Yes, and for that reason I am asking the question. One always finds, when one advances criticism, that hon. members try to divert the criticism by making interjections, particularly when they have not studied the Bill. The whole object of this Bill is to provide for the implementation of apartheid. We started with job reservation. We have got economic area reservations under the Group Areas Act, and now we have this further step of credit reservation, with different rules for Coloureds and for Whites in regard to credit. Where do we find anywhere in the Land Bank Act such a provision as we find in Clause 4? I would like to know how the farming members would like the Land Bank to lend money without security. At present the Minister may lend money to the Coloureds without security. Is that going to be part of the new Government policy, that any person who wants to go into business, irrespective of what his colour is, can be lent money free of interest or without security? These questions have to be answered. It is part of the Government’s policy to develop not only a state within a state, but a separate economy within the economy of South Africa. Creating conditions such as this will undermine the economic position of South Africa as a whole, and for those reasons we oppose the second reading of this Bill.

The hon. member for Pinetown (Mr. Hopewell) was worried that members on the Government side had not read the Bill and he had all sorts of misgivings as to whether this corporation might not act as the director of a company, because that would allegedly be in conflict with the provisions of the Companies Act. But if the hon. member for Pinetown, who normally studies his work very thoroughly, had read right to the end, he would have seen that this situation is dealt with in Clause 25 which provides that, subject to the provisions of subsection (2), no provision of the Companies Act will apply to the corporation. It is quite clear therefore that provision has already been made in this Bill to meet the hon. member’s misgivings.

The hon. member for Pinetown also asked whether there would be the necessary coordination between the Minister of Coloured Affairs and the Minister of Economic Affairs in administering this measure, and he rather sneered at the lack of co-ordination between the various State departments and Ministers. Let me assure the hon. member for the umpteenth time that this Government acts as a team and that there is the constant collaboration between our Ministers that is necessary for the team to work together. He need not worry about lack of co-ordination therefore.

In strongly supporting this Bill, I cannot refrain from saying that as far as the Opposition is concerned, we saw the last remnants here of that old, imperialist economic colonialism. To my mind this immediately emphasizes the vast difference between the Government and the Opposition, because the United Party is quite prepared to give everything to the Coloureds, and also to the Bantu, as long as it can exploit them economically. The Government, on the other hand, realizes that it is the guardian of the less developed racial groups in this country, and that is why it introduces a measure such as this because it realizes that as the guardian, it must have the economic welfare of these population groups at heart, and it is especially aware of the needs of those groups, because it represents a population group which itself suffered much in the past as a result of that imperialism; it is because we have suffered so much under the economic imperialism that we are in a much better position to appreciate the economic needs of these less developed groups and to meet those needs as their guardian. We found in the past that we could not obtain a foothold economically because we could not meet the three basic requirements for economic development. We did not have the necessary means. For economic development three things are required: capital, technical guidance and entrepreneurs. This Bill seeks to provide the first two, the necessary capital and business advice. These two items which are so urgently necessary for the establishment of this population group are to be provided by the corporation set up under this Bill.

Then there is a third, very necessary requirement: managers of entrepreneurs. There is nothing in this Bill or in any other legislation placed on the Statute Book by the Government up to now which prohibits the Coloureds from going to work for White business undertakings and obtaining the necessary training there. I foresee that Coloureds will still always, as in the past, obtain their practical training in existing undertakings and that they will then, with their practical knowledge, act as entrepreneurs in their own territory and among their own people. What they still lack then, the capital and further technical advice, will be provided by this Corporation. I foresee that along these lines we shall have a highly developed Coloured community within a very short space of time. I repeat that what we have seen here on the part of the United Party side is nothing but the remnants of the old imperialistic policy which only seeks to exploit. We saw it so clearly throughout the years when we saw how they fought tooth and nail to thwart the establishment of our own steel industry and how they tried to thwart the establishment of other industries. But by means of the establishment of those industries, this population group of ours, which had always been the hewers of wood and drawers of water in the community, has today also become economically independent, and we are now extending a helping hand to another population group which is still undeveloped and which we are going to help by means of this Bill to become economically independent so that they can take their proper place in the Republic. By means of this bill we can help them to become independent and I see a very rosy future for the Coloureds. Where can you find a better example of the advantages of separate development which places people on their feet than in certain spheres where the Coloureds have developed separately as in their churches and in their schools? One finds the Coloured leaders of to-day in the schools and in the churches, where they are apart and develop separately, but they still lag far behind in the economic and financial spheres of their national life. For this reason we are going to help them in this sphere, too, to achieve the necessary degree of self-development and adulthood to make them a happy part of the population of the Republic of South Africa.

The hon. member who has just sat down seems to be deeply concerned about economic colonialism. Economic colonialism, which essentially visualizes one group being dominated by another, and yet he speaks in this debate in support of a principle of breaking up your economy into those very colonial groups which his Party is so fixed on getting established in South Africa. The whole object of their policy is economic colonialism; it is to break down the economy of South Africa into a White economy, a Black economy, a Coloured economy, and Asiatic economy, a whole process of colonialization. And yet this is the hon. member who claims in this House that this measure is breaking down economic colonialism. Surely the whole purpose of economic colonialism is to have a unit which you can exploit—not individuals but units or colonies—and this Bill is creating yet another economic colony in South Africa, a colony which will either be exploited or which will become a competitor to the White economy and the Black and the Asiatic economies of South Africa. The hon. member cannot have it both ways. Either this Coloured economy which he is creating is going to be colonial and therefore exploited or it must be in competition with the other economies and therefore a danger to either the White, the Bantu, or the Asiatic economies which the Government are creating.

Why don’t you talk about something that you know something about?

I at least believe that in this country of ours the economy and the welfare of all our peoples depend on having one economy. Sir, when we had a debate here on the Bantu Industrial Development Corporation, it was the hon. member for Vereeniging (Mr. B. Coetzee) who talked about several economies; that was the hon. member who repudiated his own Minister of Economic Affairs. It is no wonder that the hon. member for Vasco got the plum and not that hon. member.

Order! The hon. member must come back to the Bill.

Sir, the hon. member for Vereeniging is contradicting me on the question of multiple economies and I am explaining the hon. member’s own ignorance of multiple economies, and how his own line in a former debate was the cause of his own political downfall.

Sir, the other points made by the hon. member for Paarl (Mr. W. C. Malan) went back to Iscor and I do not know what that really has to do with the problem, but I want to deal with this matter on its merits and in view of the lateness of the hour I feel that rather than break into my speech, I should like to move at this stage—

That the debate be now adjourned.

I second.

Agreed to.

Debate adjourned; to be resumed on 30 January.