To give further effect to the taxation proposals, as considered in Committee of Ways and Means and as adopted by this House on 17th instant, I wish to introduce the following Bills: A Bill relating to income tax, non-resident shareholders’ tax, and non-residents’ tax on interest, and an amending Bill relating to customs and excise.

The following Bills were read a First Time.

Customs and Excise Amendment Bill.

Income Tax Bill.

Mr. Chairman, may I have the privilege of the half-hour, please? I want to take the opportunity this afternoon to firstly congratulate the hon. member for Johannesburg (West) on his taking over the portfolio of Mines. It seems fated that the newly elected member to the Cabinet should be burdened with the portfolio of Mines, and it would appear to me, from what has happened in the past few months, that after the next election we will again have another Minister of Mines.

I also want to take this opportunity of making a complaint to the new member of the Cabinet and tell him that if he expects hon. members on this side of the House to take an intelligent interest in the affairs of his Department and if he wants us to make a reasonable contribution to the debate, then I should like him in future to see that when reports are to be tabled they will be tabled well in advance of the Vote that is going to be discussed. I want to point out that in this case particularly it was only over the weekend that we received the report from the Government Mining Engineer. It is very difficult for the members of our group to go through this very long report and be able to come here a day or two later and consider the report satisfactorily.

During the past year it has fortunately been possible for the disputes between the Chamber of Mines and the Mineworkers’ Union to be settled. I want to congratulate the participants in those negotiations that took place on their final settlement. We on this side of the House do not know the details of that settlement, but I think it would be in the interests of those people who are interested in the affairs of the Department if they could have an opportunity of studying the final outcome of the negotiations. It would appear to us that these negotiations were satisfactory and that a final settlement was arrived at. I think it is just as well for the Department to have had this load taken off its shoulders.

The picture that is painted of the mining industry at the moment is a very sombre one. The future of the gold-mining industry as revealed in report after report from the mining houses is perhaps only relieved and brightened by the efforts of the Federation of Mining Unions and the Chamber of Mines to come to an agreement whereby there will be an average increase of 11 per cent in the total earnings of union members who are working on the mines. Certain changes have been designed to make better use of available labour which will result, it is hoped, in greater efficiency and higher productivity. The life of the industry could be prolonged if that is successful. But if these arrangements are not successful then we in South Africa are due for a very serious setback.

According to the Chamber of Mines survey which was prepared for the hon. the Prime Minister through his Economic Advisory Council some very startling figures were revealed. As we know, the price of gold has been fixed for over 30 years at 35 dollars per ounce, which is R25 per ounce in our currency. If there is no increase in this price, and if there is no favourable tax revision then, so this report states, R2,250,000,000 worth of gold will be left underground and will not be exploited, i.e. at 2 per cent increase in inflation. There has been a steady rate of inflation in South Africa and if inflation increases by a further two per cent per annum this figure of R2,250 million worth of gold will rise to R4,250 million. That is the value of the gold that will remain underground.

The search for gold goes on, and if it is considered that in the last 10 years R30 million was spent on the search for gold, and one realizes that of this amount R20 million was unproductive, it shows us in what a parlous state our present gold fields are. It must also be borne in mind that it costs eight times as much to develop a mine to-day as it did in 1930. So the chances of new mines being developed are not very rosy. Investigations show that for a new mine to come into production it would require a recovery of 10 pennyweights per ton to make its development economic. At the moment there are only five mines in the whole of South Africa that exceeds this figure. It means therefore, from the figures that I have given, that the life of the gold-mining industry—if there is no inflation at all—can last until the year 2015. If there is inflation, and the rate of inflation is 2 per cent per annum, the industry can only last until 1996. If there is a 4 per cent increase in inflation, it can only last until 1989, which is a matter of 12 years.

What about uranium?

As regards uranium, if there is a 2 per cent rise in costs we will lose R190 million worth of uranium. This will be left in the ground. If there is a 4 per cent rise in costs, we will lose R290 million worth of uranium. It will be unproductive to mine it.

The Government must decide now what plans it is going to make for the future. That is imperative. The hon. the Minister is also in charge of planning. He has to make sure that his future plans include every possible effort to keep the present mines going, to keep them as productive as possible, to see that the price of gold is raised, to see that the costs of production are kept as level as possible. I am perturbed, if these figures are right, about what is going to happen to those towns, particularly in the Free State, which depend entirely on mining activity. If it is going to be the policy of the Minister to take away industry from certain areas and divert them towards the borders of the Bantu homelands, and if he is not going to give due regard to the necessities of the towns which at the moment depend on mining, he is going to be responsible for ghost towns especially in the Free State. It will be said that mining towns such as Springs, Brakpan, Benoni, Nigel, and Krugersdorp, are also dependent on mines for their existence. The difference is that when we were in power we encouraged secondary industries to come to those towns, with the foresight that one day those mines would go out of production. Something had to take their place. I ask the Minister now to tell us what he intends doing in his planning campaign for the next five or 10 years to ensure that these towns do not become ghost towns. I would say to him as well that every eifert must now be made so that new industries can be developed such as are being developed overseas at the moment. I am speaking of those industries which use products from our mines. We are exporting metals and minerals of all kinds. The overseas concerns are using our products. I would suggest to the Minister that those industries which are using our products overseas should be encouraged to develop in our country so that we can compete with them on our own ground on our own terms. We have the essence of such industrial development. We are producing those substances which they do not have. Let us then try to develop those industries here. They will to some extent offset the difficulties which may arise later in the mining industry.

I want to leave that subject now, and say a few words about a topic I know the Minister is very concerned about. We on this side of the House have been discussing this matter in a reasonable atmosphere over the past 10 to 12 years. That is the question of pneumoconiosis. It would appear that during the last five years the position in regard to pneumoconiosis has been settling down. There is a reasonable hope that a better deal will be afforded to the underground worker and to the surface worker who comes into contact with dust. I have been looking at the figures which the Miners Medical Bureau has issued to us. They are very interesting. They show that there has been a steady drop in the number of persons who are affected by pneumoconiosis. If the Minister will look at page 9 of the report for the year 1965-’66, he will see that there are 539 cases which have been referred for re-examination. Out of this group of persons, 51 of them were found to have tuberculosis only. Ninety were new cases with pneumoconiosis. Only 12 were re-classified in a higher stage of pneumoconiosis. If you look at the percentage at the end of the column, you will see that only 31 per cent of the total number of persons who were certified, have been re-classified. Of course I cannot doubt these figures, but it seems strange to me that there should be a relatively high number of persons on the mines with tuberculosis, and a relatively low number of persons suffering from pneumoconiosis. I would have thought that it would be the opposite. I would have thought that they would find more cases of pneumoconiosis, because of the new system of classification and examination, than tuberculosis. I think it is a matter which we must keep our eye on. We must see whether or not changes have been taking place on the mines, which have made it safer for the mine worker, or whether this is due to some new method of examination. I want the Minister also to look at page 7. At the top of page 7, it says:

I am very perturbed about that. I think that this is the first time that I have read in any report that we should not take into consideration those matters which were strictly adhered to previously, namely age, weight and body build. We were very careful in the past to make sure that when a mine worder went up for an examination, he had to conform to certain standards. Every insurance company in existence places emphasis on the weight, height and body build factors. It is terribly important. I may be wrong. Perhaps I am old fashioned, but I do think that this relaxation was only effected because of the scarcity of recruits. To me this is scraping the very bottom of the barrel. If this is the way we are going to get recruits for the mines, I think it is the wrong way, and it ought to be altered immediately. The right way to get recruits is to improve their working conditions and to make their wages and salaries much more attractive. Their conditions of work must be made better. To let people like this go into the industry is, I think, dangerous and unwise. It says here: “Because of lack of scientific proof”. There could not have been proof because we were always very strict as far as that was concerned. These people were not allowed to go and work there. How could there then have been any proof? What we will be able to prove is the sudden rise in the cardio-respiratory conditions following the admission of persons such as are now going to be allowed to enter the industry. I would ask the Minister to take particular notice of that, and to make sure that this paragraph on page 7 in the report is reviewed. If he can possibly get it excluded, we on this side of the House will be very pleased. If it is going to be found impossible to get more recruits by any other means, and he is going to allow these people to come into the industry, then I say to him that he must have two categories of admission, an A category and a B category. The A category will be those persons who reach the standard of physical development as we knew it up to now. Those who are allowed to escape the strict observations that we had previously, should be put into the B category. Those in the B category must have regular examinations whether they like it or not. That must be obligatory. They must be examined at least every six months, and not only see whether the respiratory organs are working but also to see what effect strenuous work has on the cardiac system. I feel that this relaxation that is coming about now is going to be a very expensive item for the Chamber of Mines. They are going to have to pay thousands of rand in compensation as a result of this.

Which paragraph is this?

If you look on page 7, you will see that the chapter deals with the activities of the Bureau. It starts off with the words:

Other members on this side of the House will be dealing with other matters concerning pneumoconiosis. I just want to say to the Minister that I am also very perturbed by the question of asbestosis. I am not going to go into detail into this matter. The Minister will see in the report that the question of asbestosis which is dealt with on page 119 is quite unsatisfactory. The report of Mr. Wright, Inspector of Mines at Witbank states that:

He deals with that matter and then he says that the position is still very unsatisfactory. The Minister must please investigate the question of asbestosis. I think that the hon. member for Durban (Central) will deal with that in somewhat more detail.

I want to deal with is the number of accidents rate on the mines. The most important item I want to deal with is the number of accidents that occur as a result of explosives. This is a very important matter. I want to be as brief as possible as far as this is concerned. In 1964 there were 276 accidents and in 1965 there were 318 accidents. That may be connected with the following statement on page 115 of the Report:

That is a report by the Inspector of Mines in Johannesburg and the Inspector of mines in Klerksdorp makes similar observations. He goes on to say that the use of this blasting agent has been sharply curtailed. Only two mines are still using it extensively. They are experimenting with new devices. They have been using this substance, ammonium nitrate blasting agent, and this report is for the year ending December, 1965. In the first week of February this year, we passed a Bill permitting the use of ammonium nitrate as a blasting anent. It was used on the mines apparently, from what I can make out, a year or two before permission was granted by Parliament for its use. I may be wrong but if one looks at Hansard (col. 469 of this year), the Deputy Minister of Economic Affairs in his Second Reading speech said:

I do not know how it is possible for the Minister to have made that statement in regard to the use of this blasting agent prior to the passing of this Bill in Parliament. I think in this particular case we should have the whole position investigated. I do not know how that sort of thing comes about. It says distinctly that we did have experiments here, but I do not know whether these are the experiments that took place. It may be. but who gave permission for these experiments to take place in all these mines? Is it any wonder then that the accident rate in regard to explosives has been going UP?

Lastly, I want to ask the hon. Minister, if he can, whether he would be good enough in his reply to give the country some indication as to I what the prospects are for us finding oil in the country, and whether he thinks that it is worth while going on with the tremendous activity that is taking place and what hope and signs there are for finding oil. All of us are praying that oil will be found in this country. I do not know if we are likely to do so. The hon. the Minister will know more about it, and if it is possible to divulge some of the details to this House we will be most grateful and I am sure that the country will be relieved if he can indicate to us that at least there is some hope that oil will be discovered in our country.

I should like to associate myself with the hon. member for Rosettenville in the appreciation he expressed of the fact that the monthly-wage agreement had been successfully concluded. I hope and trust that it will be conducive to labour peace and order, but I think we are also indebted to the mediation committee, which performed a gigantic task in order to make these negotiations succeed.

Then I should also like to congratulate the new Minister of Mines on his appointment as Minister of Mines. We believe that his medical background, his knowledge and ability will enable him to implement the Pneumoconiosis Act in such a way that it will give rise to general satisfaction. We know that the hon. the Minister’s task is not an enviable one, because on the part of the mineworkers there has always been dissatisfaction with the operation of the Pneumoconiosis Bureau. In fact, I expect that with his ability this Minister will succeed in bringing about a mutual spirit of trust between the mineworkers, the Chamber of Mines and the Department of Mines, because I think that this holds the key to a satisfactory solution to all the difficulties. In this regard we also want to convey our appreciation to the previous Minister, who made it possible for a number of members of Parliament to visit the Pneumoconiosis Bureau during the recess. We were really impressed by everything which is being done there. The research project in connection with the prevention of pneumoconiosis and the consequences of pneumoconiosis was indeed a revelation to us. One of the tasks of the Bureau is to determine the effects of working in dust-laden air and the dangers involved in this, as well as to determine how long a person can work in dust-laden air without harmful effects. It is also essential that after-care should be applied, and we were truly impressed by the work done by the research unit in this connection. Visits such as these are not only informative, but I believe they will also create confidence in the Department of Mines and in the new Pneumoconiosis Bureau. The only point of criticism one may perhaps raise is that the reception and waiting rooms at the Bureau have a gloomy atmosphere because of their dark walls, and this is of course not beneficial to a person who thinks that he is suffering from pneumoconiosis. We were assured, however, that the necessary changes would be made in the new building, and we hope that a more cheerful atmosphere will be created in the reception rooms. Sir, pneumoconiosis is and remains a frightening disease. Fortunately, as the hon. member for Rosettenville also said, the incidence of the disease has decreased remarkably in recent years. This is attributable, of course, to the new development methods which are employed and also to the preventive measures which are taken to ensure that there is not so much dust present in the air. Nowadays it is not unusual to meet a person who worked in the mines all his life without contracting pneumoconiosis. In the old days, when we still referred to miners’ phthisis and not to pneumoconiosis, one was actually marked for this disease the day one started working on the mines. Nevertheless one should, when dealing with a mineworker, treat him with the utmost circumspection. One should show interest in him without pitying him unnecessarily. He must be treated sympathetically, because pneumoconiosis also has a psychological aspect which has to be taken into account. It is therefore essential that there should be the closest co-operation and mutual trust between the Department of Mines, the trade unions and the Chamber of Mines. Mutual trust and co-operation must be created between them in order that the suspicion and distrust which are frequently aroused unjustly against the Bureau may be avoided and removed. It is a fact that there has always been dissatisfaction among the miners as regards pneumoconiosis and the compensation payable in respect of it. In 1962 the Pneumoconiosis Act was revised in this House, and many improvements were effected to the Act, and one expected and hoped that this would result in great satisfaction among the miners. On the contrary, however, it resulted in great dissatisfaction, and a campaign was launched against the implementation of that Act, which was deplorable. The Mineworkers’ Union then pleaded for a new approach in respect of pneumoconiosis. The Chamber of Mines and the Mineworkers’ Union then produced the so-called new scheme. The premise or basis of the new scheme was the principle that pneumoconiosis compensation was a matter for negotiation and bargaining between the employer and the employee, and that the State should not be involved in it. The previous Minister of Mines then referred this scheme to the Silke Commission, who inquired into the whole scheme. As we expected, the Silke Commission rejected the new scheme and stated most unequivocally that certifying and compensation in respect of pneumoconiosis and tuberculosis of miners working in dust-laden air should remain the responsibility of the State. In my opinion, however, there were nevertheless two aspects in this new approach which merited attention. The first is the patient-family doctor relationship, on which the Silke Commission made a recommendation, and the second is the principle of combining a pension scheme and pneumoconiosis compensation in order to make one payment. We know that on a previous occasion the Government had a draft Bill in this connection, and I should like to ask the hon. the Minister, in view of the fact that the Chamber of Mines and the Mineworkers’ Union have now also accepted this principle, whether he will not try to effect a compromise between these two schemes, the one proposed by them and the one devised by us, in order to be able to provide better compensation to a mineworker if he has to leave the mines. The Silke Commission published a report on the question of the patient-family doctor relationship, and I shall deal with that at somewhat greater length, but in the time available to me I cannot elaborate any further on the principle of combining pneumoconiosis compensation and a pension scheme. In the time available to me I would just like to mention briefly that the Silke Commission made certain recommendations which most certainly merit attention. From the report it appears that there are certain provisions in the present Act which caused dissatisfaction among the miners. The commission found that there were certain factors which gave rise to dissatisfaction among the miners, firstly the relationship between doctor and patient, and secondly the ineffectual liaison between groups of employers, groups of employees, the Department of Mines and, thirdly, certification standards and the concept of pneumoconiosis as a disease. The commission concluded its report with these significant words:

The commission has refrained from commenting on matters not mentioned in its terms of reference but would nevertheless suggest that various relevant matters dealt with by witnesses in their evidence before the commission enjoy the attention of the Department of Mines as soon as possible.

These are the matters which they requested should enjoy attention, and we should like to hear from the hon. the Minister whether these matters have already enjoyed the attention of the Department, because we believe that if proper attention is devoted to these matters it will create confidence and distrust will be eliminated, in order that there may be a satisfied and contented mineworkers’ community.

Permit me to thank the two hon. members who have just spoken for their congratulations to me. The hon. member for Virginia did not qualify his congratulations, but the hon. member for Rosettenville did, with the qualification that he was certain that after the next election there would be a new Minister of Mines in this House. Well, I do not know what plans the hon. the Prime Minister entertains as far as the portfolio is concerned, but I want to assure the hon. member that if I am spared I shall be back as the member for Johannesburg (West), and I may also add that I think Johannesburg (West) may distribute some of its strong sections among the surrounding constituencies to reinforce them. I hope that hon. member will still be here, if in the following five years he will behave as he did this afternoon. With reference to his remark, I cannot refrain from just making this observation. I have been away for three and a half years, and if my memory serves me correctly there were 53 members on that side when I left, and now I count 39 members. The hon. member should therefore not try to write me off as far as the next election is concerned, but I thank him because I know that his congratulations were sincere, notwithstanding the humour which he added and which is typical of him. I also thank the hon. member for Virginia. I think I have now disposed of the congratulations and thanks, except that in his absence I want to thank my predecessor, the present Minister of Economic Affairs. I want to convey my appreciation to him for the period he acted as Minister before I arrived in the country and also afterwards, up to and including 3rd May, when the election claimed so much of one’s time. I am particularly grateful to him for the attention he devoted to these Departments while he himself had to take over a new Department.

Then there is just a third point which I feel duty-bound to correct in the House. After my arrival from London there were several reports in newspapers, some correct and others, incorrect, which stated that I had said at the airport that if I could choose I would not have chosen Mines and Planning. I want to correct this. I said exactly the opposite. I said that it was not for anybody to choose which portfolios should be assigned to him, but if I could choose I could hardly have made a better choice. I say this here specifically in order that hon. members who come into contact with me, and also my officials and other concerns such as the Chamber of Mines, the mine-workers and those who are concerned with the general planning of the country, should not get the impression that they are dealing with an unwilling horse of a Minister. For that reason I just want to put this right and say that I was very pleased and that I could hardly have made a better choice if the choice had been mine.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville also mentioned the question of the Government Mining Engineer’s Report, which was tabled a few days before this discussion took place today. May I say that there has been a tremendous backlog in years gone by, as the hon. member knows, in regard to tabling this particular report. But we have been fortunate in overcoming certain staff shortages and also certain printing problems, so that we were able to table the 1965 Report, which is now before the Committee, and we also hope to be able to table the 1966 Report during this Session still. So that we will catch up on the backlog there has been in past years. In all fairness, I should also like to point out that although the hon. member referred to the report of the Government Mining Engineer, there is this other report from the Miners’ Medical Bureau, which is up to date. The 1966 Report is the one being quoted from now. The hon. member. and also the hon. member for Virginia, referred to the settlement in the gold mining industry. I think we should couple with that also the coal mines. I am extremely grateful that matters have developed up to the stage where to-day we have a reasonable settlement. But may I in this respect point out that the Minister of Labour and the Committee he appointed have been largely responsible for the negotiations, and I think that the Chamber would also like to put on record our sincere appreciation to the three gentlemen who served on this Committee for the work they did, and also to the miners and the Gold Producers’ Association. May I say in this respect that I think the results they have achieved are in a large measure also due to the fact that we as politicians have refrained from saying too much about the whole matter. I, for my part, since I have been Minister of Mines, have not said a single word because I feel that this is a matter between the employees and the Gold Producers’ Association. I think we have served a good purpose by not in our public utterances referring to this particular issue, and I hope that during this debate we will refrain from doing so, except for what has been said up to now.

Then the hon. member referred to the price of gold and the statement made by the President of the Chamber of Mines a few days ago. Now, I have not had discussions with the Chamber of Mines. It is my intention to have very full discussions in the recess, but I would like to point out that all of us, including the President of the Chamber of Mines, ought to be very, very careful not to paint too dark a picture of the gold mining industry, or to speculate in this regard; because, as the hon. member perhaps does not know, the Chamber has submitted for consideration by the Economic Advisory Council a full report on the present situation together with certain proposals. This report and the proposals are being studied at the moment by the Economic Advisory Council, and in the meantime of course the Government is continuing its assistance to mines. Hon. members are familiar with these measures which the Government has taken. I would like to suggest that whilst the Economic Advisory Council is considering this report and the proposals, it would be unwise for me to disclose what these proposals are. I repeat that I think one must be extremely careful, and especially people in high places like the President of the Chamber of Mines, not to paint too dark a picture of the gold mining industry. One can easily play with figures. That reminds me of the story of the hundred workers, males, who were working somewhere in South Africa and there were two elderly ladies looking after them and doing their cooking, and then, as happens all over the world, one of these workers decided to marry one of the ladies. The man in the office was not content with reporting to head office that one of the workers was marrying one of the housekeepers; he thought he would make it a little more attractive and wrote a report saying that 1 per cent of the workers was marrying 50 per cent of the housekeepers. One therefore has to be careful in playing with figures. I would not like to say more about this, except to say that one is of course very much aware of the difficulties of the marginal mines, and although the question of the price of gold is entirely a matter for the hon. the Minister of Finance, as hon. members know, it has always struck me as rather peculiar that South Africa, which produces 70 per cent of the gold of the free world, which is the basis of the whole economy of the free world, should have to subsidise certain of the mines producing that gold.

It seems to me so wrong that a relatively small country like South Africa subsidises 70 per cent of the basis of the economy of the free world. I leave it at that because, as I say, it is a matter for the Minister of Finance, and, as hon. members know, the question of the price of gold is receiving the continual attention of the Government and other interested bodies.

*There have also been references to pneumoconiosis and asbestosis. I shall reply to that later, because I know that there are other hon. members who also want to speak on that.

But I feel that it is nevertheless my duty to make a statement here in connection with the search for mineral oil, to which the hon. member as well as the hon. member for Virginia referred. I should therefore like to report to the House on the progress and the present position of the search for oil in the Republic. As far as I can, I also want to report on the financial implications, in which this House will be interested.

Two years ago, on 12th January, 1965, Soekor was founded at the request of the State, and on 1st May of that year it came into being with the appointment of the general manager. Six months later four local diamond drills started the first boreholes in the search for oil. These drills were located in accordance with existing geological knowledge and on the advice of the Geological Survey Division, which is a branch of the Department, as you know, which serves as technical advisers to Soekor, and of overseas oil geologists whom private oil companies and the Geological Survey Division appointed in the past as consultants to investigate the possibilities of oil in the Republic. Approximately a year ago the first great imported oil drill started operating on Kareebosch, in the Murraysburg district. It is the drill which was commonly referred to as the “Scottish drill”. This drill started drilling operations and in January of this year the second imported oil drill of a French company was started by the hon. the Prime Minister on the farm Weltevrede in the Aliwal North district. Both these drills are rotation drills. The drilling sites were chosen on the basis of the latest knowledge available at the time when those drilling operations startel. So far three holes have been completed, two diamond drill boreholes in the Fraserburg and Victoria West districts, and one rotation drill borehole at Kareebosch. Drilling operations are still in progress in four places, with two diamond drills and two rotation drills. At the moment the position is that rotation drill No. 1 is on Skietfontein in the Aberdeen district. It has reached a depth of 2,900 ft. Rotation drill No. 2 is on Weltevrede in the Aliwal North district, and has reached a depth of 8,785 ft. Diamond drill No. 1 is on Sambokkraal at Laingsburg, and has reached a depth of 12,770 ft., and the second diamond drill, on Klipdrift at Sutherland, has reached a depth of 11,350 ft. Further sites for drilling are at present being located intensively and scientifically.

I offer the House a somewhat detailed statement of Soekor in respect of drilling activities, as it may be stated unequivocally that the ultimate location of oil sources can be achieved only through drilling, and because drilling activities comprise at least half of the total expenditure. The whole point I am trying to make is that with our present knowledge it is only by means of drilling that one can determine finally whether or not there is in fact oil in paying quantities.

The three completed boreholes did not produce oil or gas of any significance, but did in fact yield valuable information, and the new knowledge will play an important part in Soekor’s further exploration programme. I must emphasize that we are only at the beginning of our search. There are approximately 200,000 sq. miles of sedimentary rock on land which justify testing, and with regard to which we have extremely little geological knowledge. The first three dry holes must therefore by no means be regarded as a criterion for our expectations of oil. In two years’ time Soekor has established a dynamic organization. I think hon. members will agree with me that the search for oil and everything related to it is such a great and complex matter that Soekor truly deserves the gratitude of this House and of the country for what they have achieved within the period of two years. In addition I should also like to mention that some 20 qualified geologists and geo-physicists of the Geological Survey Division are taking an active part in the search for oil in support of Soekor. Over and above drilling the most comprehensive and expensive aid to the programme are the four imported seismic teams, two of which are British and two French. In the final instance these seismic teams approve those places which are indicated by the other geologists, geo-physicists and geo-chemical technicians as sites of promising oil-geological interest, before drilling is undertaken at such places. Soekor is not the only oil prospecting concessionary in the Republic. I should like to place the emphasis on the prospecting—as yet it is not mining for oil—also as regards our people outside. At present there are ten ether concerns which hold oil prospecting rights in the interior, and of these five have agreements of active co-operation with Soekor, to their mutual benefit. Soekor’s original prospecting area comprised approximately 100,000 sq. miles. At present Soekor has a mandate over approximately 150,000 sq. miles in the interior, over the continental shelf, i.e. the sea areas, which comprise approximately 65,000 sq. miles, and over the Transkei. Soekor must be regarded as a catalyst and as the co-ordinating body which brings about the desired uniformity in participation by technically qualified and economically strong companies. In this regard I also want to refer to Soekor’s successful attempt in respect of sub-letting on the continental shelf. This is the sea area. In February, 1966, the Government decided to extend the search for oil to the sea areas of the Republic, and this task was entrusted to Soekor. Because Soekor could not explore the areas on its own in view of limited funds— because sea exploration is approximately five times more expensive than land exploration —a shortage of trained manpower and technical experience, the area which, as I said, comprises approximately 65,000 sq. miles, was subdivided into eleven exploration blocks. Qualified and financially strong exploration companies were approached to take part in the search, and here it is a pleasure to be able to say that Soekor received no fewer than 44 applications for these blocks. The blocks were finally allocated to ten companies, including eight of the world’s biggest oil companies, of which four are united in one consortium. For the past ten months Soekor has been finalizing contracts. Our mining legislation had to be adjusted, and as hon. members know these amendments were passed by this House in March of this year. Our Income Tax Act had to be reviewed and the necessary legislation will be before the House shortly. This attention had to be given to numerous facets, for example fisheries, shipping, marketing, customs regulations, divisional control, etc. In the process virtually every Government Department has been consulted. These consultations have now been concluded. The companies are ready, and as soon as all the necessary legislation has been passed, I shall have the contracts finalized. Operations will then commence immediately.

Soekor has also succeeded in arousing the interest of local groups, groups in the Republic who have certain convictions as far as oil is concerned and who are prepared to put these convictions to the test by way of financial expenditure. Hon. members will know how many people there are with divergent views on the matter of oil. But I am now referring to those who are prepared to bear them out and to proceed with their own financial expenditure. Agreements have been concluded with three groups holding prospecting rights —and by this I mean more specifically drilling rights—from Soekor in areas of a hundred or two hundred square miles, respectively. Two of these areas are situated in the Free State and another in the Transvaal. Apart from these companies three other groups have approached Soekor for similar prospecting rights. Other foreign groups are at present assessing inland areas with a view to possible participation in the search for oil.

The search for oil is an expensive and lengthy process, but it is essential that it should also be seen in its proper perspective. The annual expenditure in foreign exchange on the importation of oil products borders on the R100 million mark. That is what it is costing us in foreign exchange. If Soekor therefore spends an average amount of from R5 million to R7 million annually on a search for oil, it cannot be regarded as exorbitant. As far as overseas companies are concerned, I want to assure hon. members, the House and the public outside that clauses were included in the prospecting lease contracts and that the possibility was provided for in the mining lease that if oil was discovered, the Republic’s interest would be fully safeguarded. These people advanced vast sums of money, and for that reason we cannot impose demands on them which will deter them. But I want to give the assurance, without going into details— which would be unwise in any event—that it is a matter of serious concern to the Government that the Republic’s interests should be safeguarded if oil is discovered on a large scale. As hon. members know, R14 million has been made available through the Strategic Minerals Fund. There are indications that this provision will not be adequate to complete the drilling programme, that is, to the end of the period for which these large oil drills will be available to South Africa. I think this period extends to somewhere in 1969. For that reason more money will have to be made available to Soekor. Subject to certain reservations, it is the Government’s intention to complete at least the present phase of the search for oil. I want to give the assurance that Soekor is very much aware of the fact—it was impressed upon them—that where large sums of money are handled there must be no wastage or unnecessary expenditure of public funds. But it is in the interests of the country that we complete this drilling programme, at least up to 1969. After that we shall have to take a new decision on the matter.

I presume hon. members would want to know why more funds have to be made available. It should be borne in mind that the two drills cost some R3 million each, while the expenditure in connection with the seismic work undertaken by the four teams to whom I have already referred and who have to point out the final drilling sites, comes to approximately R1 million a team per annum. As I have said, there are four teams afield in order to keep ahead of the drills. This is the reason why more money is now needed, something which we could not foresee; mainly because the work was commenced with at a relatively late stage and the first drill, which was to go down to approximately 16,000 feet, struck the pre-Cambrian stratum at a depth of about 8,000 feet and had to be employed elsewhere as soon as possible. I mention these things in order that hon. members may appreciate that on the basis of the knowledge available at the stage when these drills were taken into service it was thought that they would go down to a depth of 16,000 feet. It has now been found that they drill more rapidly and not as far down as was originally thought on the basis of all available technical and geological knowledge. For that reason the seismic teams now have to work at a greater pace and more extensively, and drilling has to be done in places where the maximum amount of knowledge is not available in order to determine the possible results. But I want to repeat that although we are going to complete this programme in the interests of South Africa, there will be no wastage of money. In the light of the strategic importance and the economic independence of the Republic I want to assure the House that my Department and I and also Soekor will persevere industriously in the search for oil on land and at sea, in order to give the critical answer as soon as possible to the question of whether or not the Republic has oil resources. I think South Africa should be prepared to pay if we want to know whether or not we have oil.

I think I have now disposed of this matter …

Have the oil drills been set the condition that you can compel them, if the Department so prefers, to go down at least 20,000 feet, or not?

The oil drills were leased by Soekor. of course. All that counts to the oil drill is the fact that it is paid on the basis of time.

Was no depth laid down?

The owners of the oil drills do not decide to what depth drilling should go. where or when it should take place. These drills are in the service of Soekor and on the basis of the findings of its seismic teams and geological services Soekor decides where, when and to what depth drilling should be undertaken.

We appreciate the fact that the Minister has given us such a lengthy explanation in regard to our prospecting for oil. I do not think there is anything we on this side of the House can add except to say that we certainly hope we shall find oil. We are also glad that a number of outside firms are sharing the costs of this venture and whether oil is found inland or on the continental shelf we shall be glad to know that oil has been found. I should also like to congratulate the Minister on his maiden speech as a Minister in this House. I want to tell him in all sincerity that although he may be the junior Minister in the Cabinet he has in his charge one of the most important portfolios at this particular moment, a portfolio which is going to become increasingly important as the years go by.

Last year I dealt fully with the question of marginal mines or marginal ore, as I prefer to call it. I dealt with the mines that had already been forced to close down as well as those that we foresaw would have to be closed down in the foreseeable future. I also dealt with the volume of gold that was being left in the ground. We noted the help that was being given by the Government by way of grants for pumping, loans against losses and allowing amalgamations of certain mines, and other measures. In the reply of the debate last year the then hon. Minister of Mines said the Chamber of Mines had been asked for proposals on how marginal mines could be kept going and how marginal ore could be assisted. He did not want to say anything further until this report had come to hand. Well, part of this report is now available and although the report contains no proposals it has some very interesting things to report. I think the hon. the Minister has either said too little or too much when he talked about speculating with figures. I do not know now whether the hon. Minister means that we are not to take the Chamber of Mines’ figures as authentic and as being of value.

I was speaking to the hon. member for Rosettenville.

So we can start a new discussion. I had a client once with whom I was doing business. Every morning when I saw him and talked to him about what we had discussed the previous day he used to say that that was yesterday and that we should start again to-day. So the hon. the Minister and I can start de novo. That is fair enough. The hon. the Minister also said that he could not understand why we as a gold-producing country had to subsidize goldmines. I agree with him. I cannot understand why we only get 35 dollars for an ounce of gold. I cannot understand it either, but unfortunately we are not the ones who make the decisions. Therefore, although we cannot understand, we have to accept, because these are some of the facts of life. There is one point in this appraisal which I believe to be of the utmost importance. That is where it says that South Africa is as dependent as ever on its gold production, that reliance on gold production cannot continue indefinitely and that secondary industries, aided by primary industries, must eventually take over from declining goldmines. This is not a new thesis. This is what we said to this House last year. I am going to be immodest enough to quote from the speech I made last year (Hansard, Vol. 18, Col. 3459):

These views are reinforced by what we read in this report. The problem of the gold mining industry, or of gold in this country is very much like the problem of inflation. People just do not believe that gold is ever not going to be produced in this country. We have got used to it. We have had four crises in the gold industry. We have had devaluations, we have had increases in the price of gold, we have had new mines being discovered. Each time we have had what we may call a fortunate escape. Four times lucky is four times lucky, Sir, and we have to appreciate the fact that although our gold production will rise within the next few years, it is thereafter likely to come down. If by some casus fortuitus the price of gold should go up, or new goldmines should be discovered, or processes should be discovered which will make it cheaper to mine gold, we shall raise our hands in thankfulness, but we cannot expect it. I hope the hon. the Minister in handling his Department will deal with the matter on the basis that these things will not happen. If they happen, good luck to him. We shall be the first to cheer with him.

Some of the problems in regard to new goldmines have been pointed out by the hon. member for Rosettenville. It is interesting to find from the Chambers’ report that, on the basis of pennyweight per ton in respect of most of the old mines on the Rand, few mines would have been opened with costs as they are today. This is an interesting factor we must remember. History is past. The days of the 188s are gone. We are now living in the 1960s. Gold mining is still the largest single industry in this country. It provides the base on which our other industries are being built, figures are given as to when we are likely to end gold production in this country. I do not want to use those figures again, but I want to point out one very important thing. One is apt to say that gold production will end in the year 2015, if there is no inflation, which of course is an impossibility.

Are you playing with figures?

No, I am not playing with figures. I want to bring the figures to the hon. the Minister’s notice.

If the production of gold ceases in the year 2000, to settle for an intermediary figure, it does not mean that we have got until the year 2000 to deal with this problem, because the production of gold will drop at the rate of about a third of the production for each third of the period. We will find ourselves in 1975 with half our production gone. This is the aspect of which we must be mindful. We have not got until the year 2000 because there will be a decline all the time unless other factors come to our aid. I think that what one has to realize is that the production of gold affects every single person in this country. I hope that this debate on mining will be treated in that light so that we will not have some of the discussions which we have had in the past about what the gold-mining companies are doing and the taxation that they should be paying, etc. Gold is the wealth from which we operate. It is the base on which we are building, but our building is going very slowly because we have problems in our building.

We have inflation and we cannot expand at the rate we would like to. Yet we all know that industrial production has eventually got to take over from gold. We need time. That is our greatest problem because every single person, the farmer, the industrialist and the worker, everybody in this country depends upon the production of gold for a great deal of his well being. The usual cliché that one uses is: Export or die! I am going to suggest to the hon. the Minister that in the face of the situation which is likely to develop after the next five years, the cliché we may have to use is: Mine more gold, or die! Because gold is what keeps our economy turning. The change from a mining economy to an industrial economy is very difficult. It is by no means easy. The mines are the people who are buying a great deal of the production of all our factories. If you take that away, the base is gone and the problem remains. This is what we must achieve: Mining first, industry thereafter. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, discussed the problem of a wasting asset, such as the gold-mining industry, in a very level-headed way. I just want to ask him that he should perhaps be a little more positive in his approach in the sense that he, as an expert in that field, should be specific in suggesting to us exactly what he expects from the Government. Exactly what does he expect us to do in this regard? In what way must we accommodate the mining industry as such? I know that the hon. member’s time has expired and I accept that he will speak a second time in order to put that to us. The Estimates we have before us at present, clearly prove that assistance is being rendered to marginal mines, which is, for instance, one of the means by which we are trying to help them. The increase in expenditure for one year amounts to R1,124,000. Therefore the amount that was spent last year has been more than doubled within one year.

You missed the point completely.

No. The hon. member is throwing up his hands. I quite understand. I say that in the form of assistance to marginal mines, the State itself does as much as it possibly can. It doubled its expenditure in this regard within one year. Name me another Vote where expenditure has been doubled this year. We do not want to say that it is wrong. We do not want to say that the matter should not receive attention. Therefore I want the hon. member to tell us more explicitly where the assistance has to come from if we have the need for it.

I want to address a few words to the hon. the Minister. He has already been welcomed in his new capacity and therefore I shall not repeat it. I just want to tell him that on behalf of the Randfontein constituency I want to extend to him a word of cordial thanks for his personal interest during his visit to the sinkholes in and around Westonaria. By doing that he immediately showed the inhabitants of that town and everybody that he takes a personal interest, because he took the trouble to see for himself what is happening there. I know that the community there has the greatest confidence in him; they are confident that this problem, over which we actually have no control, will receive all his personal attention, and that he is prepared to go to all lengths to ease this problem for those people as much as possible and to take the necessary steps to obtain compensation for those who need it. That is my first point.

The second point I want to mention is the question of pneumoconiosis compensation. The Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act of 1962 was passed and the undertaking was given at the time—and this is the way we made it known to the electorate outside—that this Act would serve as a basis and that it would be reviewed from time to time and that the bottle-necks would be eliminated. There are a few bottle-necks that I should like to bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister on this occasion. The first bottle-neck is in connection with section 94 (1) of the 1962 Act. That section provides—

In the Act the concept “monthly earnings” is defined as follows—

I want to bring a specific case to the notice of the hon. the Minister in order to illustrate my point. There are three such cases in my constituency, and I understand that in the entire country there are only 133 such persons left who are affected by this specific section. Persons who left the mines in the thirties and in the early forties earned monthly earnings of between R60 and R65 at that stage. The Act provides that the total amount awarded to any person in the form of pneumoconiosis compensation may not exceed his maximum monthly earnings plus R15; that is, the maximum pension these people may receive under this Act is R75 a month, but some of these people qualify purely on health grounds for this stage of pneumoconiosis, namely more than 75 per cent respiratorial impairment, and under this Act such a mine-worker, with a wife and three children, would be entitled to R105 a month, but in terms of this specific section he may not receive more than R75 a month. Mr. Chairman, we know that there are certain problems and that this matter is also connected with the Workmen’s Compensation Act and with labour legislation, but, surely, we cannot compare the value of money in the thirties and forties with the value of money at present. Since then the value of money has decreased considerably, and I think that the correct technical way of remedying this position is to increase this R15 for which the Act already makes provision— which appears to me to be a sort of adjustment for the reduced purchasing-power of money—to a reasonable amount, if we do have to retain the principle that the compensation any person receives in the form of a pension, may not exceed his original maximum wage. I think that this is a reasonable request, and since this provision only affects 133 of these unfortunate people and the financial implications are not exceedingly great, I want to ask the hon. the Minister to devote his personal attention to this matter.

The second matter I should like to bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister is the following:

The report of the Silk Commission was made available at the end of the session last year. The then Minister of Mines pointed out that it was impossible to study that report fully at that stage, along with the recommendations contained therein, particularly the recommendation in regard to increasing pheumoconiosis pensions. At that time he also announced a general increase of 20 per cent in the pneumoconiosis compensation and he undertook to study the implications of the Silk Commission fully during the recess, and that he would then have actuarial calculations made as to what the exact situation was. and that subsequent to that, in the light of the facts that would appear from a study of that report, a further adjustment would be made if the 20 per cent were not enough and, if the 20 per cent appeared to be enough, that he would then make a statement to that effect. I should just like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he is in a position at present to tell us, after a thorough examination of the report of the Silk Commission, that the mine-worker may expect a further increase in his pension this year or next year, and whether, as a result of the recommendations made by the Silk Commission, he regards the 20 per cent that was awarded last year, as sufficient.

The third point I should like to raise also concerns the question of pneumoconiosis, and that is the certification of mine-workers. We who are dealing with mine-workers in our constituencies every day, appreciate the problems these people have. They go to the Pneumoconiosis Bureau for an examination and that examination is done very thoroughly— as we learnt from the report and as we also noticed during our visit to the Bureau last year—but to the mine-worker himself nothing is said on that occasion. He is not at all informed about the result of the examination; he does not have the vaguest idea of what is happening. He returns to the mine with a sort of resistance to the Bureau; he has been examined thoroughly by them; he passed through the Bureau like a number and when he arrived at the other end, they did not tell him anything, and he knows that in two or three weeks’ time he will receive a letter informing him that there is nothing wrong with him. That is the general attitude adopted by the mine-worker. I do not want to suggest that the doctors who are doing the examinations there do not act humanely, but I nevertheless want to ask if it is not possible for the doctors to be more talkative while they examine the mine-workers, and whether it is not possible for the patient-doctor relationship there to be a little more intimate. The impression the mine-worker gains, is that he is regarded as a number and that the doctor adopts this attitude: “I must examine number so and so now, and I must still examine a further 20 cases to-day.” The mine-worker gains the impression that the examination is carried out as quickly as possible. I am not saying that this is the case. [Time expired.]

I hope the hon. member who has just sat down will forgive me if I do not explain to him why the doctors do not talk more to the miners when they examine them. He will get that much better from the hon. the Minister who is peculiarly well qualified to give him the reasons.

I want to add my congratulations to the hon. the Minister on his appointment, and I do so particularly because he was kind enough, when I made my maiden speech in this House, to congratulate me, and I hope that in congratulating him I have more reason to do so than he had on that occasion when he congratulated me.

I want to move away from the general outlook which has run through this debate so far and I want to refer in particular to the diseases which afflict miners, the chief occupational diseases, pheumoconiosis and tuberculosis.

As far as tuberculosis is concerned, one can say that roughly about 50 cases a year during the last five years have occurred in miners who entered the mines with a clean bill of health. In other words, these men contracted the disease after the initial examination. I am not saying that they contracted the disease in the mine but they acquired it after starting work in the mines, and I think one can assume that a certain proportion of these 50 men did actually acquire it in the mine. I think that every effort is being made at the present time to prevent miners with active tuberculosis from entering the mines, and I think with a great deal of success, but it is evident that somewhere along the line there is a breakdown in preventing miners from acquiring this disease during their working life. I suggest to the hon. the Minister that he must now change his outlook as far as the bureau is concerned. While the bureau must continue with its present efforts and continue to use the methods which they adopt at present, I feel that it should consider whether there is not a new outlook to-day as far as tuberculosis is concerned. He will find, if he asks the co-operation of the Government adviser on tuberculosis, that in the last two years the anti-tuberculosis programme of the country has been modified to this extent that the Department is using immunological methods in the hope of preventing the development of tuberculosis. Already tuberculosis is largely under control among the white population and it is hoped by this method that further control will be obtained over the non-White population who are so susceptible to the disease. This is the introduction of B.C.G. injections to immunize patients who are tuberculin negative.

The Department of Health has found that there is no longer any need for pre-testing these patients. It has found that B.C.G. will change the outlook altogether for many of these patients. It may be able to reduce the number of miners who contract the disease, particularly among the Bantu. There is a new method of giving the injection which is being carried out by the Department, and so far the results are most promising. Last year the Government adviser on tuberculosis was able to obtain R5,000 from the Department for the purchase of this vaccine, and this year I see from the Estimates that the Department is purchasing R80,000 worth of this vaccine. In other words, they are now convinced of the value of this vaccine and of its harmlessness. I ask that the Minister should consider this with a fresh mind. I want him also to look upon the question of pneumoconiosis in a different light from that of his predecessors. He comes to us with a fresh mind, a mind which to some extent has been trained in this type of observation, whereas his predecessors have all been tied to their advisers. I want him to deal with the advice of his advisers in a new light. I refer to the fact that the engineers have reduced the dust content and improved the ventilation of the mines as far as possible There may still be refinements, but on the whole they will not get very much further. I refer particularly to the asbestos mine, where the outlook is extremely grave. The latest figures I have from some years back were that, roughly, the average working life of a miner in an asbestos mine was about seven years, whereas in the quartz mines and the gold mines the average was about 20 years. Can we perhaps find some method to protect these people? I know that one of the predecessors of the hon. the Minister sent medical men overseas to study this question, and particularly to study the question of aluminium substitution in the case of the gold mines. He was kind enough to let me see the report he received, and his advisers reported unfavourably. But I have examined the evidence and the literature and I am convinced that in this country we ought to give the matter a trial I have found that, firstly, the aluminium is easily administered. It is in a fine dust form and it is pumped into the changing rooms of the miners in such a fine form that they cannot see it. It is harmless. They breathe it for about 15 minutes.

I have not much time left, but I would like to say that the American College of Chest Physicians recommend the use of this substance and the German Mining Institute in Westphalia has carried out experimental work and recommends it, and the mine which uses it mostly, a mine which employs 1,100 miners all the time, about 900 of whom are exposed, has 200 miners who have worked for 30 years and still show no sign of silicosis. Since they have used this aluminium, excluding those who worked there before aluminium was used, there has been, in some 16 years, no new case of silicosis. It seems to me that here is a cheap method and one which probably would be the saving of the asbestos mines, because if asbestos goes on as it is doing, costing the lives of people through cancer and a high incidence of silicosis, there must come a time when the people of this country will say that we will no longer mine asbestos. [Time expired.]

I can agree with many of the points raised by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, and it will be worthwhile to investigate those various points. But permit me, Sir, also to congratulate our new Minister of Mines. I am doing so because I represent one of the biggest, if not the biggest, mining constituencies in this House. More or less 11,000 of my voters are connected with the mines, and I am grateful for being able to convey the congratulations of my voters to our new Minister. I want to wish him a very successful career.

I agree with other hon. members who said that the problem at present, the danger the mine-workers see and feel once they go underground, is pneumoconiosis. In the past there were many problems in the mining industry. There were difficult circumstances. We are aware of the problems and unrest that prevailed recently, and we are grateful that that unrest has now come to an end. You will permit me, Sir, also to thank the Minister of Labour for having assisted, by means of his mediating committee, in settling those disputes amongst the workers in both the gold mines and the coal mines in such a way that we have peace and calm to-day. As I have said, pneumoconiosis is a disease which is feared by every person who works in the mines, and the 1962 Act makes provision for us to review that Act.

I want to ask the Minister to appoint a commission to inquire once again into all the aspects of this Act, but in this case to consult all the trade unions in the mining industry as well, so that we may obtain the co-operation of those people in order to see whether there is a possibility of our solving this matter once and for all in the foreseeable future. Since 1910 this Act has virtually been reviewed every year, but discontent amongst the mine-workers remains. The main reason for this is the fact that the mine-worker does not understand it very clearly. It is not made very clear to him. It is as the hon. member for Randfontein said. One passes through the medical bureau, but the necessary contact between the mine-worker and the medical staff does not exist. I myself passed through that bureau for 19 years. I know that those people are doing their best. They are people who are well-trained for that purpose. They do not tell the mine-worker whether his condition has improved or deteriorated. They do not say that they recommend this or that. There is a barrier between the doctors and the patient. I am pleading for those workers to-day. When the worker contracts that disease, his troubles start. He does not only suffer financially, but there is not much of a future left to him either. He may die within a year or two or three after contracting that disease. I am pleading for those persons who are qualified under the Pneumoconiosis Act. They, as well as their dependants, receive a pension. If such a worker has children, a pension is paid to them until they reach the age of 18. Once they have reached the age of 18, that pension is no longer paid out to them. Those persons who have children studying at universities, receive assistance from the bureau in the form of bursaries and other financial aid. But for the girl or boy who goes to a teachers’ college, there is no such financial aid. I am pleading with the new Minister that he should render assistance in this respect as well. It may be said that bursaries are being made available. That is so. Bursaries are also being made available in respect of high school pupils. In the case of a child attending a high school, even his school funds contributions, his clothes, etc., are paid by the Tuberculosis Board. I feel that when these children go to a teachers’ college, an exception should be made in their case as well. I shall not go as far as to say that the amount that should be paid out in their case should be the same as the amount paid out in the case of those children who attend universities. But a grant should nevertheless be made to them. A parent whose child is already attending a teachers’ college—and this happens when the child is 18 or 19 years of age—loses a great deal. When he contracts phthisis, he loses a large part of his income. In the first place, he will automatically be removed from his work—where he may perhaps have earned a large income—and be given other employment. I am pleading that the hon. the Minister should please help us in this respect.

I also want to plead for another matter. Hon. members on that side of the House said here to-day that the mines could only continue in existence for a relatively short period. The year 2000 was mentioned here. Is it not time the mines cut down their large expenses a little? In my area five new shafts are going to be sunk. The companies are erecting many houses there. These houses are not being erected in the area of the local towns, but in the immediate vicinity of each of these new shafts. Now the danger exists that if these mines are to be closed down in the year 2000, the State will be landed with these small townships that sprang up like mushrooms. Hon. members will remember the Dominion Reefs township in the Western Transvaal and how there were advertisements for the sale thereof. At present it belongs to a private undertaking in Pretoria. Therefore I plead that permission should not be granted for living units and married quarters to be erected at these shafts, or else they should be restricted to a minimum. Where local authorities are in a position to satisfy housing requirements, those houses should be built in the areas of town councils. This is a serious matter. I cannot over-emphasize it. I feel that the mines spend millions and millions of rands unnecessarily so as to cause their expenses to soar in order that they may tell the Government, “Look how high our expenses are in respect of production. What must the State do to help us?” To the Opposition I just want to say that no government can make gold. Everything possible is being done to help the gold mines. Once our gold resources have been exhausted, I hope and trust that there will be a substitute for gold.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the good wishes which have been extended to the hon. the Minister. I should like to add that, having known him for many years. I am quite certain that he will acquit himself very well in this very important task that he has undertaken.

When making my first speech in this House during the last session of Parliament, I pleaded for a substantial expansion of the diamond-cutting industry in South Africa, and in making this plea I stressed the fact that this very valuable industry had been allowed to stagnate over the years and that because of this it had not made its proper contribution to the economy of South Africa. I went further and expressed the opinion that with the right kind of encouragement the South African diamond-cutting industry could have been expanded to the point where it could have employed at least 5,000 qualified diamond-cutters.

Order! Diamond-cutting works fall under the Labour Vote and not under this Vote.

Mr. Chairman, I submit that the issuing of licences falls under the Department of Mines.

The hon. member was discussing the labour question.

No, Sir, I am talking about the expansion of the industry, as a whole, and I was referring to the need for the granting of more licences.

Order! The hon. member may proceed.

Are you talking about the question of diamonds being cut in this country?

That is right, yes. Mr. Chairman, when you ruled me out of order I was expressing the opinion that the diamond-cutting industry in South Africa could have been expanded to where it could employ at least 5,000 diamond-cutters, as against the mere 600 odd which it was employing at that particular time. I am very happy indeed to say that apparently my plea did not fall on deaf ears, because we find that just a short while later the then Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech made this statement—

It is perfectly obvious from this statement that the 5 per cent increase in the export duty was designed, firstly, to bring in additional revenue and, secondly, to encourage the expansion of the diamond-cutting industry in South Africa. There is no doubt that this 5 per cent would have been a shot in the arm for the local cutting industry, because it would have meant that the South African diamond-cutting industry would now be receiving from the Government an indirect subsidy of 15 per cent as against the 10 per cent which it had previously.

Unfortunately the South African diamond cutting industry has not benefited from this 5 per cent increase because, according to my information, the central selling organization, the body which is responsible for marketing South African rough diamonds overseas decided not to pass this 5 per cent increase on to its customers and in fact absorbed the 5 per cent itself. This of course meant that the status quo as between the price charged in South Africa for rough diamonds and the price charged in London remains the same. I appreciate that the central selling organization is a very responsible body. I will be the first to admit that it has been mainly through their efforts, through the system of control and correct marketing, that the world diamond industry has remained as stable as it is. So one must assume that they had a good reason for not passing this increase on to their customers in London. Nevertheless, this body through its actions has created a very anomalous situation. On the one hand we find the Government making a constructive move to expand the South African diamond cutting industry and on the other hand we find the central selling organization through its action completely nullifying this gesture. In the light of this action I must ask myself very seriously whether the central selling organization really wants to see an expansion of the diamond cutting industry in South Africa. I realize that we are dealing here with a new Minister of Mines but I am certain that he will have some knowledge of this rather strange situation. I wonder if the hon. the Minister in the course of his reply to this debate will tell us what his reaction is to the action of the central selling organization.

I must be honest and say too that there have been efforts by the Government in the past 18 months to assist the South African diamond cutting industry to expand because we find that a number of new licences have been granted by the Department of Mines which brings the established number of diamond cutting firms in South Africa to 55. At the same time a fairly large number of apprentices have been allowed into the trade. The result is that we now have 650 qualified diamond cutters and 611 apprentices. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that obviously the new apprentices will not make any sizeable contribution to diamond cutting production in South Africa for a number of years. We know too that of the 650 qualified diamond cutters many can be classed in the higher age groups. Unless therefore there is a continuous injection of new blood into the diamond cutting industry, we will find ourselves back where we started in a few years’ time.

I realize too that because of the critical shortage of the larger sized gemstones, it will not be possible to expand the diamond cutting industry substantially unless a far larger percentage of diamonds below one carat in rough are processed in this particular country. It is also true that because of the wage structure pertaining in the South African diamond cutting industry, it would be quite uneconomical for the existing factories to process diamonds below one carat in weight. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he should give very serious attention to assisting in the establishment of a separate diamond cutting industry in South Africa, an industry which will concern itself mainly with polishing diamonds below one carat in weight. We know that in Belgium and Israel, where the bulk of these small diamonds are polished to-day the industry has become very highly mechanized. We find that in these countries the small diamonds are being polished very economically indeed. I want to suggest that there is no reason at all why the type of machinery needed for this mechanization cannot be imported into South Africa. I see no reason why we cannot develop our own smalls industry in this country. I have always believed that in the interests of South Africa we should eventually process every gem quality diamond found in South Africa. I want to say that the ex-Minister of Finance was obviously thinking in the same direction because we find that when he opened the Finch Mine, he said this:

I appreciate of course that this ideal cannot be brought about overnight, but I certainly believe that we should start working in that direction.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Johannesburg (North) quite rightly says that we have known one another for a long time. As a matter of fact I am sure he will not mind me saying where we met for the first time. It was in a Turkish bath and since then a lot of water has passed under the bridge. I must say that we have come a long way to find the member, and I appreciate it and am grateful for it, pleading here so vigorously for the extension of South Africa’s own diamond industry. Naturally I am not prepared to say much about the central selling organization. I saw something of it in London, as the hon. member knows. Amongst other things they have a very beautiful building. I must say that I was rather perturbed by the reply I had to give to the hon. member the other day in regard to the mining of diamonds in this country. I gave him the figure of approximately 27 million carats of diamonds, of which something like 20 per cent are of gem quality. Of those nearly half are under one carat. The figure that really upsets me, and which I think will upset any South African, is that only 2½ million carats out of the 27 million are being cut in this country. As the hon. member said, the previous Minister of Finance had certain thoughts about this. Having indicated my own concern about these particular figures in the reply given to the hon. member, I think I must leave the central selling organization at that, if the hon. member is satisfied with the reply I have given him, because I do not think that I can go much further.

*Then I should just like to say the following in connection with the question of asbestosis that was raised here by several members. The question of asbestosis as well as pneumoconiosis, which is coupled with it, is, of course, a very important one in South Africa. More and more attention is being paid to these two diseases, particularly in countries that are large-scale importers of asbestos for secondary industries. Unfortunately it is also true that in certain countries exaggerated importance is being attached to this problem, and that it is being seized upon for ulterior motives. As regards the diseases connected with this industry, namely asbestosis and pneumoconiosis, it is unfortunately the case in Europe and also in Britain that attention has been focused upon political aspects, which, unfortunately, has also made it more difficult for us to continue with certain research projects. I do not want to elaborate on that at the moment. The fact of the matter is that this has affected our interest in what is being done abroad. However, as regards the Republic I want to give the assurance that the health problem which arises from the mining and processing of asbestos is receiving the serious attention of both the Government and my Department. As regards the asbestosis research project I can engage the attention of hon. members for a long time by mentioning a whole series of steps that have been taken, but I do not think that hon. members expect that. A year or two ago this research project was undertaken as an urgent and intensive effort. We are making good progress. As I have said, I have here a progress report in this connection. A research clinic of the Miners’ Medical Bureau at Kuruman has already been completed and equipped, and one of these days I shall open it personally and put it into commission. However, I want to give the assurance that the situation is under control, and that on the part of the public there is no reason to be panicky as far as asbestosis and pneumoconiosis are concerned.

† I should also like to point out to the hon. member for Durban (Central) that we do not accept that in the case of asbestos, the engineer in the prevention of dust has fulfilled his role. The difficulty, however, is that appliances to prevent dust efficiently are too expensive for asbestos mines to afford. Experiments are continuing and progress is being reported from time to time. May I also say to the hon. member that in regard to the aluminium therapy which he referred to—I think “aluminium therapy” is a term which is more easily understood—it has been found that it has a limited application in other countries, for instance Canada and Australia. My medical advisers tell me—here I would like to say that I am very grateful to have Professor Oosthuizen as my medical adviser—that they are not very enthusiastic about this aluminium therapy. But I shall, as a result of the hon. member’s speech this afternoon, ask for a very up to date report on this whole matter.

*I should like to tell the hon. member for Stilfontein and the other hon. members who conveyed their congratulations to me that I appreciate this gesture very much. The hon. member for Durban (Central) also did so. If my memory serves me correctly, it was when I congratulated him on his maiden speech that I also availed myself of the opportunity to thank him because during my years at university he, in his capacity as the external examiner, had been so kind as to give me a first-class in surgery. However, I can assure the hon. member that I shall not use it on him.

The hon. member for Stilfontein asked whether it was not possible for us to appoint a commission to conduct another inquiry—or to review the whole matter once again—into the Pneumoconiosis Act, which has now been in operation for five years. I think I am correct in saying that the then Minister held out the prospect that once this Act had been in operation for a certain period—five years, or whatever the period may have been—consideration would be given to reviewing it once again. However, I cannot accede to the request that a commission of inquiry be appointed now. At a later stage I shall make a detailed statement on pneumoconiosis as such. What I should like the hon. member to consider is that, in respect of pneumoconiosis and the interests of the mine-workers, this House has never been in a better position than it is at present. At the moment we have several members in this House who used to be mine-workers. In this House we have several members who represent large mining constituencies and who know the practical circumstances. But added to that we also have more doctors in this House than ever before. In addition to that we have the representatives of mining interests. In view of the machinery that exists in the House of Assembly—I am not referring to machinery in this House, but outside, in the various caucuses, because it has to be joint action on both sides—I wondered whether, if we used that machinery correctly, we ourselves could not achieve better results as far as reviewing the Pneumoconiosis Act is concerned than a commission of inquiry would achieve for us. Unfortunately I cannot accede to the request of giving the assurance at this stage that we shall appoint a commission to inquire into this matter.

Then the hon. member raised a very important point. It was in connection with the cost involved in a teachers’ college or university for the children of pneumoconiosis sufferers. I must say that I do not know anything about this, but I shall definitely go into this point very fully. I shall devote my personal attention to that and inform the hon. member by letter as to what may possibly be done. I want to tell the hon. member for Stilfontein, the hon. member for Virginia, the hon. member for Randfontein and other members on the other side that the way they act as intercessors for the mine-workers, is striking. I just want to say that if I were a mine-worker, I would have considered myself fortunate to have various people to present to the House of Assembly, in the way that they do, these various aspects which are matters of intimate and personal concern to me.

Then the hon. member for Stilfontein also mentioned the question of the provision of housing for mineworkers and matters relating thereto. I think that what he had in mind are the townships that are being planned by the mining companies themselves, as opposed to the available residential areas and housing provided in ordinary towns. I may just add that this matter has very prominently come to the fore on the West Rand, especially at Carletonville and Westonaria, where I paid a visit not so long ago and where problems are being experienced in connection with sinkholes. I have asked the Department of Planning in collaboration with the Department of Mines —fortunately both of them are now my responsibility—to look into this whole matter, also from the angle of co-ordinated physical planning. I want to say at once that to my mind it appears to be wrong to allow townships and hamlets to spring up everywhere, particularly in view of the fact that they are connected with an industry in respect of which we know beforehand that within a certain period that industry will no longer be in existence. In other words, I am now referring to ghost towns. That is the old term that we use. I am leaving the matter at that, but I think that the hon. member will have gathered that this matter has already been brought to our notice, particularly after our visits there. I am not saying that such towns are only to be found there, but that is where they first came to my notice.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville referred to the paragraph on page 7 which deals with the age, weight and body build of recruits. May I say that it is only a relaxation and not an abolition of that type of screening. The lack of proof that age, weight and body build play an important role became evident in the light of practical experience and statistics. Over the years this was discovered as a fact. I must also emphasize that although this is so, our screening methods are still very effective. I am not personally aware of this relaxation, but I shall investigate the matter, especially in regard to what degree changes have been made, and why. I do think that the question of age, weight and body build is important. One has to be guided in these matters by experience over the years and what is found by reliable statistics, and what one learns from the reliable statistics which have been built up over many years.

*Then the hon. member for Randfontein raised the question of pensions that had been pegged as a result of the monthly earnings such a person had earned originally. At this juncture I do not want to give a decisive reply in regard to the rejection or the retention of this principle, which is also embodied in other legislation; I am not in a position to do so, but so far it has not yet been possible to concede the principle that a pensioner should be better off than he was while he was still working. In other words, the fundamental starting-point—and I am not saying that it is right or wrong—is that the pension of a person cannot put him in a better position than the one in which he was while he was earning a salary. I may just add that even if, as a result of this principle, persons do not receive the maximum allowances at present, some of them nevertheless receive more than they did in the past because of the increased benefits granted to them in order to counteract the devaluation of money. My information is that this was in fact brought into account. But I shall look into the matter again. It appears to me that this is a matter about which I shall have to consult my colleague the hon. the Minister of Labour as well as the hon. the Minister of Finance. As a matter of fact, as far as the Minister of Finance is concerned, it is not merely a question of consultation; anything of this nature has to be done in consultation with the Minister of Finance.

Then I come to another point which was raised by the hon. member for Randfontein, and that is the increase of workmen’s compensation benefits and the possible adjustment of pneumoconiosis compensation. Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether at this stage I should occupy the time of the Committee with this very tedious matter. I wonder whether I should not make this information available to hon. members in the form of a letter, because I am sure that all hon. members, particularly those who represent mining constituencies, have to reply to questions in this regard from time to time. This information will then be readily available to hon. members, and then they will know precisely what the present position is. I can assure hon. members that the position in respect of the payment of pneumoconiosis compensation is favourable and not unfavourable, if one looks at the picture as a whole.

Then the hon. member for Parktown raised once again the question of gold-mines which only have a limited life, and he also raised the question of the price of gold. I think that it is being accepted generally that our gold mining industry cannot go on forever, and that can. of course, create a very serious situation in South Africa. I just want to point out to the hon. member once again that the Economic Advisory Council is at present looking into this whole matter, as it was out to them by the Chamber of Mines. But I nevertheless think that there are a few things I should tell hon. members, and the first is that our people do not always realize what an important contribution the mineworkers and the mine owners are making, in that they are still able to produce gold at a price that has remained pegged for as long as 30 years. I truly think that this is one of the greatest feats South Africa has accomplished. There are, of course, reasons for that—the fact that more effective mining methods are used to-day—but the fact of the matter is that the mineworkers and the owners of gold-mines are the people who are making it possible for South Africa to get out of the gold-mining industry what we are in fact still getting to-day. I do not want to under-estimate these problems at all. We are faced with the problem that the quantity of gold at our disposal is steadily decreasing, and we are faced with the further problem that we do not know what is going to happen in connection with the gold price. One should, at any rate, always bear in mind that there is still a great deal of gold left in South Africa, but owing to depth and other factors such gold cannot be mined economically at present, but there is always the possibility that new and better mining methods may be devised and that we shall be able to mine at greater depths. The hon. member laid a great deal of stress on secondary industries so that they may replace defunct gold-mines. I cannot agree with the hon. member more. Only yesterday somebody, who is not at all connected with my Department, pointed out to me that the people who are working in the gold-mines at present are pre-eminently people who should be absorbed into the engineering industry in particular. In other words, where a gold-mine can no longer produce, the mineworker is perhaps the most suitable person to be absorbed into secondary industries, particularly into the engineering industry. We should not merely be obsessed by gold-mines as gold-producing mines; we should always give very thorough consideration to the question of the production of uranium which is mined together with gold, and the way matters look at present the demand for uranium and the price of uranium may still be very favourable for South Africa in the years that lie ahead. In respect of the question of replacing gold-mines that are no longer in production by secondary industries, I may just add that there is, at any rate, one method by which the process of replacement may be facilitated, and that is to have co-ordinated physical planning, and having listened to hon. members in this debate on the question of the future of the gold-mines, I am sure that if I or someone else were to approach this House in the future for such powers, hon. members would lend the Government their full support.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville raised the question of ammonium nitrate blasting agent which is known as Amba. I have certain information here in this connection and I think I should read it out to hon. members.

Experience gained in using Amba in goldmines, has shown that its effectiveness compares favourably with 60 per cent ammon dynamite. However, on the basis of the weight of explosives required approximately 16 per cent more Amba is required to bring down the same quantity of ore. Then there is a long story about its price, and I do not want to go into that now. The position in regard to this reasonably new material is that Bantu are helping white mine-workers with the transportation and the use of explosives. When explosives are open and accessible, the white mine-worker himself is held responsible. When box-holes are loaded with Amba, Bantu are allowed to handle the loading tube under the supervision of the mine-worker, but the latter must handle the detonator and place it in position himself. No white mine-worker has been replaced as a result of the use of Amba. Viewed from the angle of possible explosions, Amba is safer than ordinary dynamite because it is less sensitive and the blast cannot go off without a detonator. The mine-workers’ trade union is satisfied with the properties of Amba as an explosive, but to a certain extent it is nevertheless upset and anxious about the possible effect it may have on the health of its members. They are of the opinion that the loading apparatus that is used, is faulty and ineffective in some cases, and they would like to see that only loading apparatus of an approved standard be used. The trade union would like to see research being conducted on the effect the handling of Amba has on the health of human beings. We know that nitro-glycerine, an ordinal explosive, causes headaches. However, this effect is not apparent when Amba is used, and in the U.S.A. and elsewhere overseas, where Amba has long been used on a large scale, there is no evidence that it causes chest or any other serious ailments when it is used in normal concentrations. Amba dust does in fact burn the eyes and the skin, but it is not a serious burn; it is more of an irritation than a burn. Control measures are being adapted so as to prevent dust from escaping from drill-holes during the loading process. I understand that this dust is a powder.

It is a dry compound.

There are control

measures for preventing dust from escaping from the drill-holes during the loading process, and the design of advanced loading appliances shows promise of these disadvantages being eliminated. However, from the nature of the case research is a long-term project. I can only say that in the meantime the position will be watched very closely by the Government Mining Engineer with a view to more rigorous action being taken in cases where control measures are inadequate.

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I may just deal with one other point that was raised by the hon. member for Randfontein, and that is the question of the doctor-patient relationship, particularly as far as the Bureau is concerned. I just want to call attention to a few points in this regard. The doctors of the Bureau must act sympathetically at all times, and I think that from the nature of his work the doctor is in fact sympathetic in most cases. But hon. members should realize that the relationship between the Bureau doctor and the mine-worker is not exactly the same as the relationship one finds between a family doctor and the family he has been caring for over the years. I know that the objection is that Bureau doctors do not devote enough time to the mine-workers they examine. I just want to point out that this matter has already been investigated by three different commissions consisting of doctors themselves. The doctors who are on the staff of this Bureau have a specific task. To them it is attempting the impossible to listen to the mine-workers other problems as well. We are like that; we go to the optician but then we also want to tell him about the other aches and pains we had at some stage or other, and if he does not want to listen to them, the doctor-patient relationship is disturbed to a certain extent. I am only mentioning these things because they are problems that are in fact being experienced in the Bureau. Then there is also the other problem, namely that the family and the panel doctors of the mine-workers are very much opposed to interference taking place in their field, and in this respect, too, the Bureau doctors have to be careful. However, I can say that in general the relationship between the Bureau doctors and the patients, and also the private doctors who have to care for those patients at their homes, is as good as one can expect it to be. I know that there is also a further complaint, namely that Bureau doctors are professional people and that they adopt an aloof attitude to mine-workers, that they regard these patients as machines. That is not quite true. Virtually every member of the Bureau’s panel of specialist physicians has his own practice. But in pursuance of this discussion I shall once again bring this matter to the notice of the medical adviser, Professor Oosthuizen, as well as the doctors who is in charge there. As regards the relationship between the Bureau doctors and the mine-workers, I think that I can safely say that generally speaking there has been a tremendous improvement in the past few years.

I want to add my congratulations to those of other hon. members as far as the new Minister is concerned. I am pleased that the Departments of Mines and Planning fall under one Minister. We know that it is usually the discovery of gold or some other mineral that gives rise to the rapid establishment of towns. Now we have this problem, as the hon. member for Stilfontein put it, that we are dealing with the opening of new mines and the establishment of new towns. I want to associate myself with the plea of the hon. member for Stilfontein—and therefore I am pleased that the Minister has replied to that plea—that from the point of view of the greater physical planning, proper attention will be given to the establishment of such new towns situated at new mines.

At present our gold-mining industry is faced with three major problems, and it is in this regard that I want to express a few ideas. The first is the cost/price pincer. The second is the problem in connection with marginal mines and the third is the problem in connection with the anticipated disappearance of our gold-mining industry and its replacement by secondary industry. We can virtually say, if we read the latest reports in newspapers, that our gold-mining industry finds itself in a crisis, or at least, that is the impression we gain. There are many difficulties. I just want to mention a few of them, because I want to address a few requests to the Minister after I have done so. We hear that there has been talk in America that they want to do away with the statutory gold backing of the dollar so that that gold may be canalized as ordinary gold to their ordinary reserves of gold. We also hear that the U.S.A. is going to withdraw or abolish the convertibility of its dollar into gold. If these things do happen they must necessarily have an effect on our gold-mining industry as far as the cost of or the price for our gold is concerned. Confidence in the dollar will be undermined and that will cause a considerable decrease, calculated in terms of gold, in the value of the dollar. That may lead to the devaluation of the dollar, especially if certain countries maintain their rate of exchange with gold. If other countries decide to maintain their rate of exchange wih the dollar, it may be that our gold will fetch a higher liquid price. I merely mention these things—I do not have the time to go into them—as difficulties which our gold-mining industry will encounter on its road in the future. If we read the headings of articles in newspapers, we see the following. I just want to read a few which appeared in the Press in the past three weeks (translation)—

Large Decrease in Profit of the Evander Mine.

I mention these things because according to these headings our gold-mining industry finds itself, in the first place, in this cost/price pincer. As I am standing and as you are sitting here to-day not one of us is able to say on grounds supported by an investigation, that the cost structure of our gold-mining industry is at its lowest and that the industry is operating on the most economic basis. In the light of this crisis for which our gold-mining industry is heading, and always with that in mind. I want to say in all seriousness that we cannot depend on an increase in the price of gold, but even if that were to happen, my request would still be based on sound reasons. Therefore I want to ask very seriously for an investigation into the structure and the cost structure of the gold-mining industry, the part it plays in our country and the steps to be taken so as to utilize and exploit its enormous assets to the best advantage of our country. I honestly think that the public is entitled to an assurance that wise developments are taking place in the gold mining industry and that the management and the further development of the industry will be in keeping with the interests of the entire community now and in the future.

There is a second difficulty, namely our marginal mines, and here I pointedly want to make a request for the stripping of all marginal mines to be frozen. Once a marginal mine has been closed down and has been stripped, it has been closed down for all times. Our marginal mines still contain gold to the value of thousands of millions of rand, which can be an asset, even if it is mined on a subsidized basis in the future—whether it is mined by the State or by private concerns after public tenders for the mining of such mines have been invited by the State. We do have evidence of the fairly profitable mining of marginal mines which were closed down and which were taken over by other private concerns. Therefore I ask this in view of the asset which is waiting to be exploited, because once a marginal mine has been closed down and stripped one can only reopen such mine at very high costs. I ask for the stripping of all marginal mines to be frozen until such time as this Investigation I have requested has presented a full report in connection with the entire cost structure and the entire economy of our gold-mining industry.

I then come to my final point, and that links up with what the hon. member for Stilfontein said. The day will come when the gold-mining industry will be going down and when one mine after the other will be closed down. The transition period between gold-mining and the establishment of secondary industries which must necessarily follow to take its place, will be a difficult period. That may come sooner than we expect and may cause a depression. But the blow is going to be even more severe if the population centres which have been established there as a result of the development of the gold-mining industry are going to be completely stripped of any source of revenue to justify their existence. Secondary industries will have to take its place. Now I want to ask, and with this I want to conclude, whether the time has not arrived for a fund to be established to be used when that evil day dawns at some such population centre. We have a fine example of the way in which such a fund can function in the establishment of the water fund of the Western Witwatersrand Dolomitic Association. Within a few years that fund became a very powerful one and at present people are being compensated from that fund, much to their benefit—no one is suffering any loss—as a result of developments and losses which arose because the gold-mining industry had attracted those people to that area. These three requests, a thorough investigation into the cost structure, the freezing of the stripping of our marginal mines until such investigation has been completed, and the establishment of a fund to lighten the burden during this transition period in which one mine after the other will close down, and to serve as a source for financing secondary industries which may be established there, are reasonable requests and they more or less cover all aspects of this major problem.

First of all, may I add my congratulations to the hon. the Minister to that of others, and say, that I wish him well in his new post.

The theme I wish to develop is the future position of the Coloured people in regard to mining. To what extent does the Minister think they should share in the mining development taking place in this country? Up to now, Coloured people have not had very many opportunities to participate in this very extensive part of our economy. Their experience in regard to alluvial diamonds has been a very sad one. The Department of Mines knows full well, that there are a number of Coloured men who hold diggers’ licences and who search for new ground from time to time. In many cases they struggle to make a living. One would think, that in terms of the Government’s declared policy of separate development, all sections of the community would have an opportunity to share in the country’s wealth. Alluvial diamonds, diamond digging or diamond mining in Coloured areas in which Coloured persons could work with advantage, should be allocated to them. I raised the question here a year or two ago, about the unfairness of the Government in giving the Komaggas Coloured Settlement to a consortium of private white companies to work. There was a sop given by the Department to the Coloured Development Corporation in the form that it would get 5 per cent of the gross finds, which last year amounted to some R60,934. When the second concession came along, we were horrified to find that an offer made by a diamond-mining company to develop this particular concession for the benefit of Coloured persons was rejected. After a strong plea made by me here, let me say to the credit of the Government, it was decided to accept the offer of this particular company. Negotiations have been proceeding in order to have this thing finalized. But now we come to a third one. Here, once again, we find that Coloured people are not getting their share of the possibilities of finding diamonds, or of mining diamonds for their own benefit. I refer in this case to the farm or Coloured settlement known as Mier, which is 120 miles north of Upington. What happened in this case? It is for this reason that I rise to-day to lodge a protest on behalf of the Coloured community as a whole.

The Department of Mines advertised for offers to prospect this property, and among the applicants were 14 white companies or partnerships and individuals, one Coloured company to be formed, and one Coloured man on his own account. To the astonishment of all concerned, the Minister of Mines, in answer to a question I put on the Question Paper, said that by arrangement with the Minister of Coloured Affairs this concession was handed over to the Coloured Development Corporation, which would float a company consisting of the Development Corporation itself, the local management board of the particular settlement, the Coloured company to be formed and the individual Coloured man who had applied. This reply was given on 14th February this year. So far so good, but then we come back to the same old story, where the 14 companies, individuals and partnerships, were more or less directed to float themselves into a company to prospect this enormous farm. This farm is 432,000 morgen in extent and it seems to me a sad state of affairs that an enormous piece of ground like that, can be allocated to a group of white persons, entities or individuals, when it rightfully belongs to the Coloured community, who are just as skilled and know all about the prospecting and mining of diamonds. They also have access to all the money that could be required to prospect this property thoroughly and to the satisfaction of the Minister of Mines and his officials. One cannot help but wonder whether or not the attitude of the Coloured people is correct, namely that there is no intention by the Government that they should really share in these propositions, where wealth is possible and where wealth may lie in great measure. I am told, with unfailing regularity, that it is useless for Coloured people to expect to get anything in this particular field, because certain white companies get preferential treatment. When one looks at the names of these companies, and sees the individuals concerned, and examines the background of all the shareholders and the companies’ registers of these consortiums and companies who have worked on these concessions, one must be led to the conclusion that certain people have influence and that Coloured people have none. I therefore say to the hon. the Minister in his new capacity, that, in dealing with concessions which fall within the purview of the Minister of Mines, Coloured persons should be considered to a far greater extent than they are. I would appeal to him to deal with these matters, absolutely and exclusively on their merits. He should not concern himself in any shape or form with the type of arrangement which was made, and about which I have got a very full reply from the Minister who was then responsible for the portfolio.

Having disposed of the alluvial aspect and the mining aspect, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister what facilities are contemplated for the training of Coloured men as miners. What share do they get of the higher remuneration which is paid to miners in the coal-mining industry and in the gold-mining industry? We know of course that in the copper-mining industry many of them are employed and I am sure that it will be confirmed that these people are not only satisfactory miners, but they observe all the rules that go with that particular occupation. They acquit themselves very well indeed. It is a well-known fact, that the white mining unions object to some of the activities of Coloured miners, but I think these matters could be resolved. So, I ask the hon. the Minister whether he would not apply his mind to my plea, that Coloured persons, should be utilized in view of the fact that there is a tremendous shortage of manpower in this country. I see on the Estimates that there is a large sum of money for training schools for Whites to learn the art of mining. This is not the first time I am making this plea. I would like to have something placed on the Estimates—I hope it will be next year—providing for a training school for Coloured men to learn the art of mining, so that they would know how to go about the job. There will then be an end to this business, which is far too prevalent, where concessions which are within the purview of the State, are handed out to white mining companies and Coloured persons are excluded. I ask the hon. the Minister to give me some idea of what his policy is in this regard.

Mr Chairman, I shall not reply to the matters raised by the hon. member. I leave that to the hon. the Minister. I want to associate myself with all hon. members who congratulated the Minister. I can boast, more than other hon. members in this House, that he is one of my political sons, that I raised him and that I am very proud of him. The general friendly reception of these words of mine proves that everyone agrees with me and that I have not done a bad job in this case. I want to wish the Minister a very prosperous and happy time and I hope that the country as a whole will benefit greatly, in all respects where we expect that of him, from his undoubted talents as a Minister. I may assure him that in general his appointment as Minister of Planning and Mines is highly appreciated by the mine-workers as well as by myself. When hon. members of the Opposition to-day pulled a kind of dark veil across the floor of this House in connection with the mining industry—because of the story which is being told that the mining industry is now nearing its end—one could not help but think that they were people who at least spoke with the authority of experts. The Chamber of Mines knows when they speak of this probable life of the mining industry. When they now announce that time is running out very rapidly and that we are beginning to see the end of the mining industry—the gold-mining industry in particular—I cannot help but think of the year 1931 when we also heard expert advice. The late Mr. Hans Pirow, the Government Mining Engineer, the most expert authority in the field of the mining industry, said at that time that the maximum life of the mining industry was only 25 years. We have exceeded that maximum by many years. I only mention this to show to hon. members that one cannot always depend entirely on so-called expert advice as far as the mining industry is concerned. This is an industry where one has to leave things to new discoveries, because subsequent to that year, in which the first prediction of the end was made, the mining industry has grown to an extent which has exceeded the wildest expectations of any optimist in South Africa. Let us wait a little while. There are many possibilities for the gold-mining industry which can still play a much greater part in South Africa, and I hope that that will be the case.

Where?

One does not sink a new shaft at a worked-out mine which has no more life. There are many indications that the gold-mining industry will continue to exist and prosper for many years to come. At this stage I want to express the hope that in the future, when the gold-mining industry may once more be blessed with new discoveries, it will adapt itself to a greater extent. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, will hon. members please leave this dialogue. When I hear those tiny voices I do not want to hear my own harsh voice intermingle with them. I want to express the hope that if a new day dawns for the gold-mining industry, it will, as an industry we have often boasted to be the goose that lays the golden egg, try to adapt itself to the South African way of life and will meet its obligations to South Africa. Not everyone agrees with me, but to my mind the gold-mining industry as such has never adapted itself to such an extent that it has produced the highest possible degree of prosperity for the South African nation. It has in fact been the goose that lays the golden egg, but for many years that golden egg has contained a considerable amount of poison.

Then we come to the biggest problem about which we have to hear year after year, namely the question of diseases and compensation in respect of them. I am pleased about the hon. the Minister’s reaction to the suggestions made here by hon. members. However, I want to go somewhat further to-day, because I do not want the hon. the Minister to find one of these days that he is being flooded with requests to which he has no reply. He has not yet heard the last word about the question of miner’s phthisis. I humbly want to give him some advice to-day so that we may hear the last word about this question. During a major dispute which arose in the mining industry we followed a new method. We had a mediating committee in which interested parties were brought together. The outcome of that was a tremendous success. Now I want to extend that. I want a similar committee to assist in this connection in negotiations in the future, because there will have to be negotiations in regard to the question of miner’s phthisis. But that should not be the end of it, as has been the case since 1930. I want to tell the Minister the following. The brain-racking which follows on the complaints we hear here year after year is attributable to the fact that each time a new Act is passed one always hears that it is a measure which has been agreed upon. Do you know why, Sir? It is because Parliament has not accepted its responsibility but has made it a measure which has been agreed upon. Therefore, after such a mediating committee has completed its work, I want no Act to be amended until such time as a select committee has considered this matter so that this House will be able to accept its full responsibility. Mr. Chairman, do you know when last this troublesome question was considered by a select committee? That was in 1931. Because the report of that Select Committee was not implemented and because all subsequent legislation in this connection was passed on the basis of being measures which had been agreed upon, the hopes of all predecessors of the present Minister were disappointed. Each time they were once more saddled with a series of new requests and a whole lot of new dissatisfactions. In my modest opinion one will never be able to put an end to that dissatisfaction until such time as one has done so according to this pattern. If the Minister proceeds along these lines I foresee the end of this problem and this annual repetition of the same complaints and dissatisfactions. I just want to repeat this because when I said it before the Minister was not in the House for the moment. I was saying that the question of negotiations should start at the mediating committee subsequent to which there must not again be talk of a measure which had been agreed upon. This matter must be referred to a select committee of this House so that this House may accept its responsibility and so that we may avoid a repetition of measures which have always been agreed upon and under which the mine-worker has been prejudiced time and again. I hope that these things will find favour with the Minister and that he will at least find it acceptable as a method of attempting to put an end to the constant complaints and investigations. I want to conclude by saying that an end will not be put to these complaints until such time as we, as a House of Assembly, say that we are really going to tackle this matter, and that we are going to start with a mediating committee.

Mr. Chairman, I should personally like to convey, also on behalf of the many mine-workers of Boksburg, our congratulations to the hon. the Minister on his appointment as Minister of Mines and Planning. We want to wish him, as an ex-Boksburger, the very best. We also want to wish him a very long and fruitful term of office as Minister of Mines. As a doctor from Boksburg he is acquainted with many of the problems of the mine-workers. I should like to associate myself with what the hon. member for Virginia said with reference to our visit last year to the Miners’ Medical Bureau in Johannesburg. We were really impressed with what we saw there and I also believe that we have the fullest confidence in what is being done there. The hon. member referred, inter alia, to the reception room which in appearance created a somewhat sombre impression. I think that that is so, but in addition I want to ask the hon. the Minister, since a new building is being planned or has already been planned, for better provision to be made also in respect of the changing-rooms so that there may be more privacy for the older people. I notice that at present some of the older men have to share the same changing-rooms with the younger men. I do think that we may perhaps owe it to those older people to give them a little more privacy.

Quite a great deal was said here about pneumoconiosis. It remains a problem, particularly as regards the determination of the disability or the degree of a person’s disability. In spite of the progress which has been made in respect of clinical tests and the improved apparatus being used, mistakes are still being made. This only shows us how fallible these tests may be. According to the Medical Journal of 22nd August, 1964, it was found at the post-mortem examinations of 88 white mine-workers that 38.7 per cent of the cases had shown no pneumoconiosis at radiological tests but that those persons did in fact have pneumoconiosis before their death. This is where a considerable amount of dissatisfaction is caused amongst the mine-workers. The mine-worker believes that he is a sick man. He feels convinced that he is certifiable. He goes to his family doctor and the family doctor—a person in whom he has a great deal of confidence—tells him that he suspects him to be suffering from some chest complaint. It is in this connection that I want to plead with the Minister that there ought to be close liaison between the family doctor and the Bureau. Section 31 of the Act provides that a medical practitioner is legally bound, if he suspects a person who has worked at a controlled mine to be suffering from pneumoconiosis or tuberculosis, to communicate his findings to this committee. But in spite of this, many of our medical practitioners are not aware of this provision. Even many of our mine-workers are not aware of it. In other words, in many cases of determining the degree of disability, the family doctor’s knowledge of the person’s background is not taken into account. A record is kept at the Bureau of the periodic examinations of that person, but that is a record of the examinations at the Bureau only. I should like to suggest that apart from the record which is being kept at the Bureau, a mine-worker, on being informed of his periodic visit to the Bureau, should first obtain a report from his family doctor, which he can take along with him, covering the period between his last visit to the Bureau and the present visit. Such report is also to form part of his record.

We know that the man in the street has a great deal of confidence in his family doctor. If his family doctor tells him that he is presumably suffering from pneumoconiosis, he attaches a great deal of value to that. Consequently I think that it will give a man a great deal of satisfaction and consolation to know that a report by his family doctor will go to the Bureau and that his family doctor also has some say in the matter. It does happen, for example, that a person feels very good on the day of his examination. When he arrives at the Bureau he is given a good report as far as his health is concerned, whereas he really is a sick man. If the Bureau had a report from the family doctor covering the preceding period it might possibly determine the degree to which that man had already been affected more closely. The opposite is also true. A mine-worker may suspect that he is suffering from pneumoconiosis but may not want to be certified. Even to the detriment of his own health which may suffer, the man is afraid that if he is certified he will no longer be allowed to work at the mine. It may also happen that the man may possibly have an attack of bronchitis on that day, something which, of course, also makes him certifiable. That may happen in spite of the fact that he feels that he does not want to be certified. As I have already said, the man in the street has confidence in his family doctor and therefore I should like to see that the family doctor, as far as certification is concerned, has more say so as to limit that doubt to a minimum. Should there then be any doubt, I want to ask that the mine-worker should be given the benefit of that doubt.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member addressed his remarks mainly to the hon. the Minister and I shall leave the matter at that. We are particularly glad that the Minister has indicated that he will go into the future of the gold-mining industry. On various occasions, both inside this House and outside, attention was drawn to the important role our gold-mining industry was playing in our national economy generally. On each occasion it was indicated that this particular industry was still making a major contribution to our national income; that it was one of the country’s largest providers of employment; that it purchased large quantities of locally manufactured goods; and that it continued to earn foreign exchange at a rate which, at present, amounts to approximately R800 million a year; this is twice as much as the figure in respect of our agricultural industry and it is four times greater than the contribution made by manufacturing industry.

The particulars, the facts and the statistics about what is going on in the gold-mining industry and the effect of inflation on the life of our mines are well-known. Quite a number of reports have been prepared. These reports were submitted from time to time. All we ask now is that the Government should take active steps. Even when the Budget was introduced we felt that those mines which were still producing would be given some relief. But just the reverse happened; we found that the loan levy was increased.

The particulars are clear. I can only express the confidence that the new Minister of Mines will display the real insight that is required, that he will act dynamically, and that he will be more successful than his predecessor in convincing the hon. the Minister of Finance and his colleagues that something should be done in connection with this matter. He will probably get advice from all sides, but I just want to tell the Minister in passing—because my time is limited and I should like to touch upon another aspect of the matter—that he must really not accept the kind of advice he got from the hon. member for Krugersdorp, for example. I am thinking now of the time when the hon. member delivered himself of a lengthy tirade about the mining industry earlier this Session. When this side pointed out the difficulties experienced by the mining industry the hon. member adopted the attitude that we were only making propaganda on behalf of the mine-owners. What is more, he made a particularly serious allegation. He alleged that the mine-owners were pushing up the working costs of the marginal mines in an artificial manner in order that they might qualify for more concessions. I want to quote what he said amongst other things, and I refer to Hansard, Column 814, where the hon. member said the following on 7th February, 1967—

But the hon. member brought us under a wrong impression. In actual fact he showed how ignorant he was. If he had done his homework, he would have noticed that the average cost in the case of the marginal mines amounted to R5 per ton at present, and that the average working cost of our 12 most productive and highly profitable mines was not less than R5 per ton, but amounted to R6.6 per ton. In other words, it is 30 per cent higher. I therefore say that that kind of contribution is of no use to us; it confuses the issue completely.

When speaking of the mining industry we are inclined to think of the gold-mining industry. I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to refer briefly to another important sector of our mining industry, and that is our coal-mines. Here we are also concerned with an important group of mines. I should like to quote a few particulars just to give you an idea of the size of these mines. Approximately 80,000 workers, of whom one out of every ten is a white person, are employed in our coal-mines at present. These mines purchase manufactured goods to the value of approximately R36 million every year. The sales of these mines take place on a large scale. Local sales of bituminous coal at present amounts to approximately R73 million a year. Anthracite sold locally comes to approximately R2 million. Our coal exports amount to about R6 million. The total amount involved is therefore slightly more than R80 million. By any standards we are therefore dealing with a major industry here. However, in this particular industry, too, all is not well. I now refer to a summary which appeared in Die Burger recently in which we read the following (translation)—

It seems to me as though this is another matter to which the hon. the Minister will have to give attention. We have to determine what future there is for our coal-mining industry. At present approximately 50 per cent of our coal is being used for the generation of power, and it seems as though this tendency will increase progressively. There is, of course, the possibility that coal may also be used in the petro-chemical industry, but I do not think this will ever assume large proportions. Taking Sasol as an example, we find that at present it uses only about 4 million tons of coal a year. It would therefore seem that the future of our coal lies in the sphere of the generation of power. Circumstances in South Africa are not particularly favourable for the generation of hydro-electric power, and experts think it unlikely that nuclear energy will be used for the generation of electricity in the immediate future. If then coal is seen mainly as a means of generating electricity, it seems as though we are going to have a problem in this respect as well. At present we in South Africa use approximately 6,000 megawatts at a time. Experts such as the head of Escom, predict that we will need approximately 60,000 megawatts by the end of this century. To produce 2,000 megawatts requires approximately 7 million tons of coal. The mining methods that are employed, however, are such that for every 7 million tons of coal taken out 5 million tons have to be left behind for purposes of support. In other words, reserves of approximately 12 million tons are needed to produce 2,000 megawatts. If we make the necessary projections it therefore follows that we will have to produce 360 million tons of coal a year by the end of this century in order to keep our power installations going. This immediately gives rise to the following question: What is the extent of our coal reserves? It seems as though this whole matter as well as the integration and the co-ordination of power generation have to be properly investigated in order that this important asset we have in South Africa—our coal—may be utilized in the best possible way in the national interest and on a long-term basis.

The hon. member who has just sat down, criticized what the hon. member for Krugersdorp had said in regard to the operating costs of mines. I want to ask him whether he is in favour of the proposal by the hon. member for Carletonville concerning an investigation into the economy of our mines. In the field of agriculture the Government is already engaged in such an investigation. As a matter of fact, all ramifications of our political economy have been investigated from an economic point of view, but this question of the operating costs of mines has not yet been examined by the State. It seems to me as if the hon. member for Hillbrow evaded that aspect. It seems strange to me that the mining industry has always been able to keep going over the past number of years, say, the past 30 years, in spite of increasing operating costs, at a price fixed in the thirties. Only such a commission of inquiry will be able to determine how the mining industry has been able to do so.

The hon. member for Hillbrow went on to deal with the coal mines. He drew attention to the importance of the coal mines as far as the generation of power was concerned and said that by the end of this century we would need 60,000 megawatts annually for the development of our industries. He went on to say that we would need 360 million tons of coal annually for the generation of the power which would be required by our economy. The Government is already taking our future requirements into account and for that reason negotiations are in progress at present with our neighbouring states in connection with the development of hydro-electric power. I can assure the hon. member that the Government is fully conscious of the importance of the generation of power and also cheaper power than the thermo-power we use at present. It is obvious that once the Sahara Bassa scheme on the Zambezi as well as the Kunene scheme has come into operation and has been linked up with the supply of thermo-power, it will be possible to generate considerably more power than we shall require at the end of this century. Mr. Chairman, it is true, of course, that our economy—at any rate many divisions of our national economy—is at present geared for and adapted to the use of oil. We use a considerable quantity of oil and other energy-supplying materials and for that reason every possible step is being taken to become self-supporting as far as these raw materials are concerned; hence the search for oil. The hon. member for Rosettenville expressed quite a great deal of concern in regard to our search for oil. He asked the hon. the Minister to tell the Committee what results had been achieved in this connection up to now. The hon. the Minister naturally was careful in his approach to this question. If I had been in his shoes, I would also have been careful, because it seems to me that in this regard we are dealing with something which is similar to the position in which a man finds himself who runs away from a lion, looks for a tree and at the end of that race finds a tree to climb. What happens in the meantime, from the moment he parts running until he climbs into the tree, is of course a serious matter. However, prospecting, or the race, is in progress and we do believe that we will ultimately achieve results in some form.

The hon. the Minister spoke of four seismic teams who are conducting research. One of the investigations being conducted which really is a disappointment to me, is the position occupied by the Geological Survey Division in the investigations. Here one has an organization that has been engaged in investigations since the existence of the Union and the Republic. At present one finds that this sub-department of the Department of Mines is being gradually stripped down. As hon. members will see in the Estimates, there are certain divisions, such as the Atomic Power Research Unit, a Metallurgical Research Institute, etc. These are all divisions of the Department of Mines which do research work. Amongst these divisions one also finds the Geological Survey Division. The Geological Survey Division is the oldest of these sub-departments of the Department of Mines. It is the Division that has been doing basic research work since the earliest days. It is a division without which no nation, no national government, can do. It will be interesting to determine what part the Geological Survey Division has played in the basic development of our fatherland, directly and indirectly. Take for example the question of the discovery of our new gold fields about which some hon. members are so pessimistic. I simply cannot share in their pessimism. I agree with what the hon. member for Kirugersdorp said in this connection. We know that since the discovery of the gold fields on the Witwatersrand in the year 1898 there have been misgivings in regard to the future of the gold mining industry, but further research work has indicated that there are in fact further gold fields in South Africa. Just consider the Free State gold fields where there were no signs of gold-bearing ridges as on the Witwatersrand and which were discovered by scientific means alone. Just consider the contribution made in this connection by the Geological Survey Division. Just consider the contribution made by the Geological Survey Division and other geological organizations to the discovery of coal mines. There are numerous coal fields which were covered by other formations and which would never have been discovered were it not for the Geological Survey Division. There are also other mineral sources which were discovered as a result of the research work done by this Division. All these discoveries are directly attributable to the geological and geophysical research work initiated by this Division which stimulated the interest of private bodies and persons. For example, if I think of all the various oil companies that come to the offices of this Division to make inquiries in regard to the potential of our geological formations with a view to the discovery of potential sources of energy in our soil, it seems to me that the amount allocated for Geological Survey is too small by far. Then one comes to the question of staff. If one compares the salaries earned by the staff with the salaries paid to people outside the Public Service. the report of the Department of Mines, particularly that part relating to the Geological Survey Division, is in actual fact a charge against the Government. This report mentions staff problems. This report covers the year 1965 and I am convinced that the 1966 report will reveal a much worse position. In these Estimates of Expenditure particulars are given of the salaries which are paid and if we compare that with what is paid by mining groups to the heads of their geological departments we find amounts such as R9,600, R10,000, R12,000 per annum. One finds that juniors with B.Sc. degrees are paid R3,000. A man with four years’ experience is paid R5,000 if he has his B.Sc. degree. Then we come to the salaries paid to officials of the Geological Survey Division and we find that the salary scale of the director is R6,000 × R300—R7,500 and that the commencing salary of a B.Sc. graduate is R1,680. It is obvious that if one can earn a salary of R3,000 after leaving the university with a B.Sc. degree one most certainly will not join the Geological Survey Division of the Public Service: one will offer one’s services to the company which remunerates one at a rate of at least R3,000 and up to R5,000 or more. [Time expired.]

I readily agree with the hon. member for Etosha that the Geological Survey Division is being neglected; it is one of the stepchildren of the Government. If we look at the Estimates, we see that the amount which is being supplied for Geological Survey this year has been reduced for R271,000 to R165,000. I wonder whether there was any other division where there was a similar reduction of 33 per cent. Particularly in view of this, it is important that this division should not be neglected any further, and I shall have something more to say about this later on, particularly because, as Treasury informed me this afternoon, the Geological Survey Division is chiefly responsible for the large number of boreholes which have been sunk in these subsidence regions of the Western Transvaal. Whether it is true or not, I do not know, but that is the information I received.

I just want to say a word about the irresponsible speech made here this afternoon by the hon. member for Krugersdorp who stated that the South African gold-mines were not aware of their responsibility towards the country. It is a pity that he makes an accusation of that nature and is then not present here to listen to the reply. It was a totally irresponsible accusation against an organization which controls one of the greatest industries in the world. I challenge anyone to show me a mining industry in any other country in the world which is better managed than the gold-mining industry. I hope the hon. the Minister is not in agreement with the hon. member for Krugersdorp when he accuses the gold-mines of this country of irresponsibility. We should very much like to hear what he has to say about that, because we want to be sure that the Minister does not share those ideas.

I should like to touch upon a matter which is a cause of continual concern amongst a large number of people in South Africa. This is in regard to the sinkholes in the dolomitic area in the Western Transvaal. It is not my intention to create unnecessary uneasiness in regard to the matter, but I cannot help recalling what happened earlier this year when a meeting of the inhabitants of that region who were deeply disturbed about the position there was held. At times stormy words were spoken at that meeting. A woman got to her feet and said: “I cannot live here any longer. I refuse to live here any longer.” That uneasiness is not as a result of anything which was written in the Press or which the Government or the Opposition is supposed to have done, the uneasiness was there as a result of a deep hole, almost twice as deep as this building, which subsided only 30 yards away from where that meeting was held and which caused damages to the value of R30,000. That was the reason for the uneasiness.

Something which caused me to feel uneasy in my turn, was part of a reply which I received from the Minister of Mines or his predecessor, in which he stated that they could not give the assurance that that specific area was safe, that surveys had been made but that the surveys had not been completed, and that an assurance of safety could not be given. The people in that area was definitely under the impression that the area was safe. Placatory words were conveyed to them. Why was it not said at that time that it was not possible to give them that assurance? I should like to know whether it is possible to give an assurance to-day, and if it is not possible to do so, we want to know why it is not possible to do so. We want adequate investigations made so that that assurance can be given to those thousands of people who are living in fear, not so much in fear of their own safety, but for the safety of their women and children and for their properties. We hear of thousands of boreholes which have been sunk in that area, but when we examine the figures we find that 8,000 of them were to a depth of less than an average of 60 feet. Many instruments were brought to the area, but those instruments are not as yet successful in, as they are intended to do, predicting where further serious subsidences may take place. In this particular case in Westonaria the instruments could not predict the subsidences. There must be something wrong when R4 million has already been spent and it is still not possible to predict those subsidences.

What is wrong?

Go and look at a hole 100 feet deep, near to schools and houses, and then the hon. member will realize what is wrong. He must not be so indifferent towards the interests and the lives of those people. I have not the slightest doubt that the position is even more serious. If we consider that 34 persons have already lost their lives in that area, and that more than 300 houses have been evacuated, that more than 150 have been demolished, and that there are schools which have had to be evacuated, that two explosives stores at West-Driefontein had to be evacuated, that a garage and petrol station building at Westonaria had to be evacuated, that an existing Buntu hospital at West-Driefontein had to be evacuated and demolished, that the Apostolic Church at Carletonville and a garage at Venterspos had to be demolished and if one considers that the damages there amounted to more than R14 million, then we cannot remain indifferent to the situation as that hon. member is doing.

Consequently I say that although the population of that region is not panic-stricken they are entitled to point out the following: Firstly, that they have the right to know from the authorities whether their houses, their families and their children will be safe in the future; secondly, they are entitled to maintain that the work which has been done up to now has not made it possible to indicate all the subsidences, because otherwise they would have found this hole at Westonaria; thirdly, they are entitled to point out that the instruments which are supposed to give an early warning, did not function correctly or did not function at all, fourthly, that the Government is still not able to declare regions where thousands of people are living to be absolutely safe. The Government simply does not know what the position is. Fifthly, as a result of the uncertainty, the capital value of the properties has decreased to a tremendous extent and the people there have suffered serious damages. That is why they are entitled to ask that if compensation is requested, the reply should be immediate and favourable and generous. I do not want to blame the hon. the Minister personally for the errors of the past, but from now on the responsibility is of course his.

What errors were made?

The error was that that particular hole was not discovered at all, and that even those thousands of boreholes could not predict the subsidence. Another error which was made was to give the people an assurance which was not borne out by subsequent events. Of course errors were made. Is the Minister satisfied with the position there? Can he tell the people there that the entire region is a safe one to-day? The day he can say that, he will have fulfilled his duty as a Minister well, then we will no longer talk about errors, and then it will be possible to judge from future events. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, referred with great ostentation to the so-called irresponsible speech made by the hon. member for Krugersdorp. But the hon. member for Orange Grove is known for displaying great predilection for making irresponsible speeches and this afternoon he surpassed himself in that regard. The speech which we had to listen to this afternoon and which the country in general had to take cognizance of, is a speech which had only one purpose, and that was to sow unrest in that very unfortunate region which is being stricken by disasters which nobody could have foreseen or forestalled. But now the question arises as to why the hon. member was so alarmist in his approach to the matter. Is it because he is in earnest that the interests of the people living there must be protected? Or are there other interests at stake which he has represented here this afternoon? I can only say that the country outside will take as little notice of this speech of his as they usually take of his speeches.

However, there are three matters which I should very much like to bring to the hon. the Ministers attention. The first matter deals with the Report of the Inspector of Mines of Springs, in which he refers to the heat and the humidity in the mines around Springs. Many reasons can be put forward for these mines being warm and for their being humid. One of the reasons which has been suggested, is that the mines are deep and that that is why they are so warm. Other reasons are also mentioned in the Report, i.e. that there is a limited air supply available in proportion to the number of people working there. Whatever the reason is, I think that we have the right to advocate very seriously on behalf of our voters here this afternoon that the hon. the Minister should give this matter his attention in the near future. It is not only unpleasant to have to work under those circumstances, but those circumstances are also conducive to many diseases to which those people then become subject to. I really want to plead that the hon. the Minister should give this matter his urgent attention.

Another matter which is of equally great importance for our voters, is the following. In the same report we find that reference is made to the high dust counts. A little further on in the report it is mentioned that this is attributable to the faulty installation of the air conditioning. I think that this is a matter which cannot stand over but which should rather receive the necessary attention immediately in order to ensure that the dust count in that particular mine is decreased. I am asking this in the interests of those people who have to work under those conditions every day and who are as a result exposed to factors which may be prejudicial to their health.

But there is also a second matter to which I should like to refer. That is the question of technical examinations. If we glance at the annual report of the Government Mining Engineer we find that on page 121 it is stated that of the 528 candidates who presented themselves to be tested by the examination commission a total of only 67 succeeded in obtaining the mine managers certificate. If that was an exception to the rule then one could still accept the situation. But in the same report it is mentioned that in the previous year, stated as a percentage, it was also a case of only a little more than 10 per cent being allowed to acquire that certificate. Now I wonder, in view of the long hours of study involved and all the trouble this entails whether it is not time the Department had an investigation instituted into the reasons why there are such a large number of failures. It may perhaps be possible at the same time to institute an investigation into the possibility of amending the appointment of the examining body in such a way that it will fall under the Department of Education, Arts and Science. I other words, to see that it is amended in such a way that it will be an entirely neutral body. I could go much further and I could oose very interesting questions in regard to this matter but I should rather leave it at that. Perhaps it is time, however, that we began asking questions as to what particular language group those people who succeed in obtaining this certificate belong, and to what language group those people who do not succeed in obtaining this certificate belong.

The last matter I want to refer to, and one in regard to which I want to make a very strong plea here this afternoon is the question of heart diseases which are not acknowledged as industrial diseases. Now I know that the Allen Commission investigated this matter thoroughly as far back as 1952 and that it did not find itself competent to recommend that this be done. But I think we can accept with a great deal of assurance that our most healthy men enter this industry and that in spite of the small number who ultimately die of heart diseases one can nevertheless find reason to suppose that the circumstances under which they work can be conducive to the development of heart diseases as a result of various factors. For that reason I want to plead that our mine-workers be given the benefit of the doubt if there is any doubt in regard to the reasons to which those heart diseases have to be attributed. In all sincerity I want to ask that we look after, in this particular field as well, the interests of our mine-workers.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to tell the hon. the Minister that I think we are all very pleased that it was in fact he who was given this portfolio. We have every confidence that he is going to get things going as never before. It is hardly necessary to say that our mineral wealth is a tremendous asset to our country. But it can only be an asset if that wealth is exploited. And it is precisely in regard to the exploitation of that wealth that there is a little matter which I would like to bring specifically to the hon. the Ministers attention. The hon. the Minister is aware of the fact that the northern part of my constituency in particular—let us call it the Northern Cape—is rich in minerals. It is in fact with the exploitation thereof that our problems have arisen. I do not know whether a stop has already been put to this custom by legislative means, but I want to refer to a custom which was put into practice in former years on a large scale. It is namely that in earlier years it was practically the custom, when a farmer sold his farm property, for that farmer to reserve the mineral rights for himself. You are aware that the original discovery of diamonds and other minerals was apparently an encouragement to do so. People secretly entertained the hope that there was some hidden wealth for them buried under the earth. That is why they reserved the mineral rights. In this way it came to pass therefore that they stated in their wills that there rights would pass on to their descendants without these descendants being definitely or more accurately defined.

Now it sometimes happens that when somebody in that vicinity is interested, say for example he is influenced as a result of his geological knowledge, in prospecting there he is confronted by the insurmountable problem that he cannot do so before he has obtained the written permission of the so-called heirs to those rights. In most cases those descendants have become widely scattered throughout the world over the years. I know of cases where it was established that the descendants were in Britain, in Australia, in Rhodesia and spread throughout the entire Republic. If we take these factors into consideration it is very clear to us that this is something which impedes the exploitation of minerals considerably. I can elaborate further on this matter, but I do not think it is necessary to do so because I know that the Minister realizes the full scope of this problem. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he consider whether legislation cannot be introduced in order to eliminate this problem. I want to make the courteous request that this legislation make provision for the following aspects.

In the first instance no owner must have the right to sell his land and reserve the mineral rights. Circumstances may arise which will justify his doing so, but in such a case he should not be able to do so without further ado. He should first have to obtain permission from the State. A concession must then be issued for a limited time, say for five years, or as the Minister sees fit. If, after that period has elapsed, no proclaimed discovery has been made, the mineral rights must resort to the owner. All rights which have already been reserved, except those which already belong to a registered company which acquired those rights through purchase, must lapse within five years from the date of proclamation of such an Act in favour of the owner unless minerals are discovered before that time which lead to a proclamation of an alluvial gravel or a mining area. Then it must be provided that mineral rights can only be sold to registered companies or reserved in their interests in the deeds office. I do not want to prescribe to the hon. the Minister what he should include in such legislation.

Order! The hon. member is not allowed to plead for new legislation.

I just wanted the hon. the Minister to take these few points into consideration. I feel convinced that if these few aspects are taken into consideration it will be possible to solve the problem with which we are faced.

I am grateful to the hon. member for De Aar for displaying the courtesy towards me of believing that I understood everything which he had to say to me. But the hon. member made a very complicated suggestion and, to be honest, I must say that I am not quite sure what it was all about. However, I take it that the hon. member would not have raised the matter if it were of no importance, of no importance to his part of the country in particular. That is why I shall ask my Department to investigate his proposals thoroughly and to inform me of the implications thereof.

The hon. member for Springs spoke about the unpleasant conditions, such as heat and humidity, which exist in certain mines in his constituency. It is a good thing that these matters are brought to our notice. Perhaps it would also be a good thing to go and inspect not only the show-piece mines, but also those mines where the conditions are not of the very best. I think the French are playing a rugby match at Springs on 25th July and I want to suggest to the hon. member that if he can combine a visit to one of those mines with this match I should like to avail myself of the opportunity of visiting such a mine. The hon. member also spoke about planning. That, however, is a matter which will have to be considered in consultation with the Department of Education, Arts and Science. That is why I shall, after my Department has had an opportunity of giving this matter some attention, write to him and inform him of the circumstances in this regard.

I now come to the hon. member for Orange Grove. I must say that we have had a quiet afternoon, although the hon. member made a few statements which I cannot leave unanswered. Amongst other things the hon. member said that the Geological Survey Division was the stepchild of the Government. On the basis of figures which he dredged up from somewhere—I do not know precisely from what source—he alleged that there had been a major decrease in the amount which was being appropriated for Geological Survey. But if the hon. member were to glance at page 307 of the Estimates of Expenditure he would note, against the item “Geological Survey”, that there has been an increase of R7,150.

But if one glances at item L on page 306 one will notice that there is a decrease of almost R90,000. Of course the overall amount will be larger if one takes salaries and wages into consideration.

If one speaks of a Department, or a section of a Department, as a stepchild, then one creates the impression that the officials of that Department or section are also stepchildren. In this regard I want to refer the hon. member to page 301 of the Estimates of Expenditure where the staff of Geological Survey are enumerated. Here there is an increase of R87,000, i.e. from R457,000 to R542,000, in respect of the staff only. The decrease in respect of Geological Survey, so I have been informed, is attributable to certain apparatus which was purchased last year for oceanographic research, a purchase which is not repeated every year. Hence the decrease. But the total provision has been increased by more than R7,000, while the provision for the officials in this particular section has been increased by approximately R87,000. Therefore there can be no question here of a stepchild.

The hon. member for Etosha indicated clearly in his contribution that he wanted to be of assistance and that he knew something about this matter. In respect of these specific geological surveys we must not lose sight of the tremendous amount of work which has been done in the past, as well as in respect of the present search for oil. If it had not been for the years of consistent contributions and surveys by those people these things which are happening to-day could never have happened. I also want to say here that even after such projects as the search for crude oil may perhaps have come to an end one day the Geological Survey Division will always have to be there to continue their work in the interests of South Africa unabated.

The hon. member for Orange Grove also spoke about the sinkholes. I am wondering now what areas the hon. member visited there? I do not think the hon. member did those areas a favour with what he said here this afternoon. It is of course a matter which is a source of constant concern. It is a matter involving human lives, a matter where human lives have already been lost. But let me also say this: I was there myself and I am satisfied that everything humanly and scientifically possible was done there. I want to pay the highest tribute to the technical committee which investigated this matter and for the tremendous amount of work which has already been done there. If the hon. member wants to witness appreciation for what has already been done, he need not talk only to individuals, he only has to go and speak to the town council of Carletonville or the town council of Westonaria. To tell the truth, I would appreciate it if our newspapers would publish a copy of one of the maps indicating the tremendous amount of work which has already been done in regard to the determining of what places are safe for occupation. Let me also say this. In the intensive investigations which have been made there, there is irrefutable evidence that the various methods which are being applied —not only the boring of holes but other methods as well—are extremely effective. I am not saying that they cannot be improved upon, but they are extremely effective. After intensive investigation it is possible to designate a site as safe for occupation. That is what has been done in regard to certain premises where, even after the subsidences occur, schools and other institutions had been built. However, the problem is that a site sometimes becomes unsafe owing to poor drainage. An entire strip is indicated as being safe, for example, but unless specific investigation is undertaken within a very small area, it is difficult to say that a particular site will be completely safe. It is difficult to say so unless that site has been intensively investigated.

I repeat that, in the full realization of my responsibility one can at this stage, particularly after the investigations which have been carried out in the Carletonville residential area, say with a great deal of certainty that it is reasonably safe to live there. Now I am not excluding a few odd sinkholes which can still subside. But we must not single out those areas as the only places where sinkholes can occur. Sinkholes occur in many other parts of the country. I do not want to arouse unnecessary unrest, but there are certain areas very near to Pretoria and Johannesburg where the number of sinkholes occurring there is greater than the number in this area. So it is not only in this area where we have the problem of sinkholes. In addition I just want to say that the technical committee is carrying on the good work they are doing there. There are large areas which have already been mapped, and it would pay hon. members to go and have a look at it.

In regard to compensation I may just say that there are two types of damage, namely indirect and direct. I do not think there are any problems as far as direct damage is concerned, but in respect of indirect damage we are at present making certain representations to the Chamber of Mines, from whence the money must ultimately come. As I have said, I am grateful for the sober and helpful attitude displayed by the hon. member for Etosha.

I come now to the hon. member for Hillbrow. This hon. member for Hillbrow seems to me to be a very clever man. I mean what I have just said, and I say it as a result of the contribution which he made in respect of our coal mines. But if he has so much knowledge of the gold mining industry as he revealed here in his speech then I think that it was unfair of him to create that impression which he created here in respect of the loan levy on the gold mines. The hon. member is aware that the formula is such that this loan levy and all that goes with it does not affect marginal mines and other mines which, shall I say, are almost suffering hardship.

I spoke about the other mines.

Yes, but the impression which the hon. member created, was that these loan levies make it difficult for gold-mines to maintain their gold production and whatever was associated with that in respect of the benefits which this entailed for the mine-worker on the mines. That is not so. The benefits of the mine-worker and the gold production in the gold-mines which are producing normal profits are not affected by this specific loan levy in such a way that it is difficult to produce gold. The hon. member had quite a lot to say about the hon. member for Krugersdorp. Now I must say that arising from what the hon. member for Krugersdorp said about me, I cannot allow the hon. member for Hillbrow to say all kinds of things about my “Dad”. You will recall, Sir. that the hon. member for Krugersdorp said that in a certain respect he was my “Father’. Now I just want to tell the hon. member for Krugersdorp the following: A good father sees to it that his will is made in such a way that his son is very well provided for. I also want to tell the hon. member for Krugersdorp that I was not discourteous when he spoke. I was in fact in the Chamber, but I was standing at the back here.

The hon. member spoke about the Pneumoconiosis Act, and he laid particular stress on the advantages and disadvantages of an agreed measure. He then expressed the opinion that if any further legislation was introduced it should be referred to a Select Committee. Of course I cannot give a final decision on something like that now. I have only one problem in regard to this proposal which is that according to my view the outcome of a Select Committee’s recommendations is also an agreed measure. However, I think we can settle this matter amongst ourselves when we discuss it again.

The hon. member for Boksburg, just as many other hon. members did, has acted as the champion of the mine-worker again, and in particular he also allowed emphasis to fall on the Pneumoconiosis Act. However, he raised a new point in regard to cloakrooms. I must honestly say that I have no knowledge of this matter, but I shall have this matter investigated in order to see whether we cannot accede to the representations made by the hon. member.

†The hon. member for Karoo spoke about the Coloured people and the share they ought to have in the diamond industry. He raised a specific case as well in regard to the farm Mier. Let me just give the hon. member certain information about this matter. My predecessor gave a very full reply to a certain question which the hon. member asked some months ago. The position is this. The Department did not call for tenders or the submission of applications to prospect on Mier. All applications, including those received from Coloureds, were submitted on the initiative of the persons concerned in these applications. Furthermore, those Coloured applicants who are said to be capable of conducting prospecting on Mier are also members of the Leliefontein Company. Perhaps not all of them, but certainly a number of them. In that case the De Beers Company had to come to their rescue.

No, they did not come to their rescue.

Well, perhaps the hon. member has not the full information, but I will come back to that in a minute. The Mier area is over 400,000 morgen, twice the size of Leliefontein which, as the hon. member knows, the Coloureds simply cannot manage on their own. The hon. member created the impression here that the Coloured people are not getting their fair share. Let me say emphatically that this Government will not allow, first of all. that the Coloured people do not get their fair share, and secondly, that they are exploited. The fact of the matter, and this we must also realize, is that whoever wants to share in the benefits of mining or any other industry must work and think and plan for himself. Moreover, he must also be able to finance the activities. Now, the hon. member knows full well that the Coloured people are not capable, and are not in a position to finance these rather expensive operations. It is the policy and the intention of the Department that the Coloured Development Corporation will look after the interests of the Coloured people. The interests of the Coloured people cannot be looked after by private individuals because somebody must finance them. The prospecting licence will be in their name and they will do the work. But who is doing the financing? The C.D.C. is there to see that their interests are looked after properly.

The hon. member also spoke about the Coloured people being given the opportunity to be trained in the art of mining. I will certainly look into that and see what we can do about it, if we can do anything about it. That is certainly a positive suggestion and I will ask my Department to look into the matter.

*May I just return for a moment to the hon. member for Hillbrow. He said something about coal. I may just tell him that I already have representations before me asking for a new survey to be undertaken of our coal reserves. This will not, however, as was the case in the past, be done from a geological point of view but from a mining point of view. Research is already being undertaken into improved mining methods in the coal-mines. A study of methods which are being used in Europe is already in progress. I entertain the hope that even our coal exports can be increased as these processes are put into operation.

The hon. member for Carletonville also raised a few matters here. If I may say so, the hon. member dramatized things a little. To a certain extent this creates problem, especially since I have warned against sketching the gold-mining industry in too sombre colours. The hon. member said here that there was no possibility of an increased price of gold. Now, that I cannot subscribe to.

I quoted what the newspapers had written.

Then the newspapers were wrong. The hon. member spoke about a crisis which our gold-mining industry was heading for. It is in fact a difficult situation, but I feel that we must be very careful when we discuss this matter. The hon. member also asked for the dismantling of marginal mines to be frozen. Well, those are brave words, but how it must be done, is another matter altogether. Suppose we decided to freeze the dismantling to-morrow, then those marginal money will have to be subsidized. Where is the money going to come from? I am merely mentioning that in passing. The hon. member also spoke here about the establishment of a fund. Well, that is a good idea I am acquainted with some of the need which exist in the hon. member’s constituency and I was grateful to be able to pay a visit there. But I would be in a difficult position if I were to accede to all those requests. It is simply impossible for me to do so. I do not want the people there, whom I grew very fond of, to entertain expectations of me which, on my part, I will find quite impossible to carry out.

In conclusion I want to give an explanation and undertake a survey of the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act. Several members raised this matter. I do not want to mention all the names. I think that just about every member who participated in this debate raised this matter. I should like, as far as it is possible for me to do so, to furnish a picture of the position as I see it to-day. When the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act was being introduced the then Minister of Mines, m. colleague the hon. the Minister of Finance, pointed out that the legislation was the product of research and of an intensive study of the systems which were operating in other countries of the world in respect of the compensation for pneumoconiosis. He then gave an undertaking that the working of the Act would be watched very carefully and that rectifications would be made if they appear to be necessary. However, he also said that in most respects the Act was so flexible that it would be possible in most cases to make the adjustments indicated by research and practical application without amending the Act. The Act will soon have been in operation for five years, and in my opinion that is a long enough period of time to be able to make an objective judgment of its efficiency. That is why I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to inform the House briefly in regard to the state of affairs in regard to the operation in general of the Act, and the statutory bodies involved in the administration of the Act. It will be realized that I have not had the time, nor the opportunity, to acquaint myself fully with these matters and that is why I will have to rely to a large extent at this stage on what has been reported to me by my Department, the Mine-workers’ Medical Bureau and my medical adviser.

From these reports it is clear to me that there is nothing much wrong with the operation of the Act and that at this stage there is no reason to expect that the underlying principles of the Act will have to be revised or amended in any important respect. As you are aware, the Act was amended in 1964 in order to rectify minor matters which had been overlooked in regard to compensation, aspects which had been disclosed by the revision of individual cases. In the same way compensation was increased throughout by 20 per cent in 1965 and compensation for the dependants of deceased mine-workers whom post-mortem examinations revealed to have been suffering from minimal pneumoconiosis without acceptable signs of any disability, was reinstituted. By that means a right was restored which the dependants of deceased mine-workers had had under former legislation. When I speak therefore of the operation of the Act, I am not referring to the compensation as such or to the question of whether the compensation is adequate. The question of compensation, i.e. the amount of the compensation which had to be paid, is a question on its own which has nothing to do with the medical basis of certification and the determination of disability.

Apart from the adequacy, or otherwise, of compensation, the basis of certification is the most important factor in compensation legislation and it is particularly this aspect which I have in mind when I say that basically there was nothing much wrong with the Act. From the medical side, the basis of certification introduced by the Act is not presenting any problems any more. The certification bodies, that is the Committee for the Certification of Mine-workers and the Revision Authorities for the Certification of Mine-workers, are functioning particularly well. From experience they have established for themselves standards of certification which, together with the standards which were promulgated in terms of the Act by my predecessor, acknowledge all the anatomical and clinical symptoms of dust damage. In terms of this Act full recognition is being given to the clinical symptoms of pneumoconiosis for the first time; that is why it is true that more than half of the certifications, during the lives of mine-workers, takes place on the basis of clinical symptoms and disability as determined by means of lung function tests in the absence of the acknowledged radiological science of pneumoconiosis. In this respect the Act has effectively succeeded in combining the former Siliosis and Bronchial Ailments Laws.

I know, and I think hon. members know, that the Republic, is, as far as is known, alone in the world in this approach towards the certification of pneumoconiosis, i.e. the fact that we acknowledge the existence of pneumoconiosis even if there is no accepted radiological evidence to that effect. In this respect our mine-workers therefore have a more favourable dispensation than their colleagues anywhere else in the world. At the same time, however, there are signs that our approach is beginning to gain ground amongst scientists elsewhere. I have even on a few occasions had the experience that important scientists have said to me in this respect that what South Africa is doing is as advanced and as modern as can be found in any country in the world.

The basic problem still remains that the mine-worker apparently cannot understand that a disease can be divided up into percentages. The same problem arose when we previously spoke of first, second, third and fourth degree pneumoconiosis. Apart from that, i.e. that it is possible to speak of the degrees of severity or stages of development of a disease, the categories of percentages in the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act do not imply that pneumoconiosis as a disease is divided up into percentages. I think it is important for us to understand this point very clearly. The percentages have nothing to do with the disease as such. They merely indicate the degree of disability for the purpose of compensation. The damage which has been caused by dust, measured on the basis of the degree to which heart and respiratory functions have been impaired, is expressed in percentages for the simple reason that there are varying scales of compensation for the different degrees of disability. In this respect there is no difference between the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act and, inter alia, the Workmen’s Compensation Act.

It makes no difference whatsoever whether one speaks of degrees or percentages of disability. The statutory basis of compensation remains the same, and for that reason I still believe that the use of the percentages in the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act is not seriously conducive to dissatisfaction. However, I myself am convinced that the present basis of certification and the basis on which dust damage is determined is the fairest one for the mine-worker. In this important respect therefore, it appears that the legislation is effective and functions satisfactorily, and in view of the advice at my disposal I cannot at this stage hold out the prospect of any amendment to the Act.

There are less important problems of a practical nature which hon. members of the House have already brought to the attention of my Department, and have done so again to-day. These problems are, inter alia, with the neglect on the part of the doctors to remove the respiratory organs of mine-workers after their death, the question as to whether house and panel doctors should be obliged to appear before the Certification Committee and the Revision Authorities on behalf of their patient, and so on. For example, the hon. member for Boksburg raised this matter here to-day. The Act already makes adequate provision for all these matters and, in my opinion, no amendments are necessary. However, there are practical problems and considerations, but my Department is giving renewed attention to these matters and I hope that it will in fact be possible to find satisfactory solutions and that we will also be able to muster the assistance and mental abilities of all members of the House in this respect.

A matter which has already been raised on occasion is the question of the revision of the categories of disability and the lowering of the percentages of disability so that mine-workers will qualify sooner for the appropriate scales of compensation. I am obviously prepared to give thorough consideration to any specific representation in this regard. In practice it of course amounts to an increase in the compensaton. In addition there are also serious economic and practical financial considerations involved and for that reason I cannot at this stage give any definite undertaking in regard to the matter. This is a matter in regard to which negotiations will, inter alia, have to take place between the mine-owners and the mine trade unions. The Treasury and the Minister of Finance are also intimately involved in any increase in benefits.

In conclusion I just want to say the following. A matter which is seriously impeding the effective functioning of the Bureau is the critical shortage of the necessary accommodation and laboratory facilities. It is with very great pleasure, therefore, that I announce that a start has already been made with the construction of the new building for the Bureau. It is hoped that it will be possible to occupy the building early in 1969 and then the Bureau will have the necessary space and modern facilities at its disposal.

I think that I have replied to as comprehensively as possible to all the matters which were raised here. If there is no further discussion I now want to avail myself of the opportunity to thank hon. members for the friendly way in which the discussion has taken place here.

I think it is essential that we take this sink-hole problem raised by the hon. member for Orange Grove a little further. We cannot leave the matter there. Just as the present Government inherited other problems from the former United Party Government, it also inherited this sink-hole problem from them. I say that by virtue of the fact that with one single exception all the township establishments in these dolomitic areas took place during the time of the United Party Government. If the relevant proclamation for the establishment of townships had not been issued during the time of the United Party Government, then the preparatory work had already been done and had already reached an advanced stage when the National Party came to power. I am just drawing hon. members’ attention to that in view of the fact that the hon. member for Orange Grove always blames the present Minister, the Department or the National Party Government for the situation. I was personally concerned with the surveying off that region in the thirties. Even at that time there were about 27 sink-holes in that area. It is generally known that the sinkholes occur mainly in valleys. A mining company—I think it was Western Areas or West Witwatersrand Areas—applied to have the area in which Carletonville is situated proclaimed as a township. It was in an area where they knew there were sink-holes. I just want to conclude by saying that the hon. member for Orange Grove is making a sink-hole of himself and of the United Party by continually raising this matter in this House.

Votes put and agreed to.

Progress reported.