I rose last night to draw the Committee’s attention to three of the most important problems in regard to the upliftment and the development of our Coloured population. I referred to the problem of the abuse of liquor, the problem of crimes committed as a result of vagrancy, and the problem of illegitimate births. With only a few minutes at my disposal it is not possible for me to go into these problems thoroughly, but I just want to point out that we will gain nothing if we try to approach these problems from a pessimistic and fatalistic point of view, and merely point out the tragic aspect of the abuse of liquor amongst our Coloured population or the other evils. Sir, I should like to draw your attention to the fact that the solution to these problems must be sought in Coloured education. There are certain things which will have to be done in regard to excessive drinking. It is possible that certain changes will have to be made in the legislation to eliminate certain abuses. I am thinking for example of the bulk provision of liquor to Coloureds, particularly the underdeveloped Coloureds who are the worst offenders as far as excessive drinking goes. But I feel that if we seek a long-term solution to these problems, we must look to the Department of Coloured Affairs, with its educational programme for Coloureds. Then I would like to point out that the number of Coloured teachers at present employed by the Department of Coloured Affairs must be in the vicinity of 14,000. In 1966 the number of approved posts was 13,345, and towards the end of 1967 it was considerably more than 14,000, according to the growth rate maintained over the years. If we glance at the number of Coloured children attending school, we see that in the fourth term of 1966 there were no fewer than 392,372 Coloured children at school, and to-day it is considerably more than 400,000. If we look at these problems in regard to the development of our Coloured population and their preparation for occupying a worthy position in our society, and seek a solution to their problem, we will inevitably have to turn to education and the educational programme. If we then bear in mind that we have 14,000 teachers at our disposal, and that there are 400,000 Coloured children attending school, then this is definitely a factor we will have to take into account and a field in which we must try to find a long-term solution. In this regard I want to point out that the tendency is for Coloured chilren to leave school at a relatively early age. Out of a total of plus-minus 400,000 in 1966, only 1,383 were in Std. X. In Std. VI there were 17,168, and in Std. VII there were 9,446, whereas in Std. X there were only 1,383. In other words, we are dealing with a school-going sector of our population which is inclined to leave school at an early age, but even this should not upset us. The point I want to make and emphasize here is that we must make the best use of that opportunity of reaching those 400,000 Coloured children, particularly in their primary school years; and that we should concentrate on bringing home to these people, in a simplified way, certain basic norms; that we should, in a psychological way, simply impress upon and hammer into them certain basic norms so that they find acceptance. These things must relate to the abuse of liquor; they must relate to their moral life in regard to illegitimate births; and they must relate to juvenile delinquency, which has assumed tremendous proportions. When we bring home those simple norms to these people it must in the long run have the desired effect. In this regard I want to state with gratitude that the Department of Coloured Affairs is making a large number of Bibles available to Coloured people each year. The figure was 15,748 in 1966 at a cost of R3,149. By doing so we are giving into the hands of those Coloured children the norms which must help them to develop into civilized people. That is why I say that we must not become perturbed because they are leaving school at such an early age. Many of our parents had less school training—one year, two years and in many cases less—but in suite of that they became civilized people, they were responsible citizens of the State, and they made a sound, useful, valuable contribution. Since we to-day have 400,000 Coloured children attending school, of which the vast majority leave school before Std. VI. that is where we must make the best use of the opportunity of working on them and forming them for four, five or six years in order to bring home to them those basic norms of civilization. That is why it is of great value and great significance, and why I want to mention with gratitude here to-day that the Department has made Bibles available to those people, for where else does one find a greater norm for civilization than in the Ten Commandments which those children will find in the Bible? Where else does one find better standards than those which the Bible can give those children? If I had to advocate any improvements or changes in the educational system here to-day, then I should like to see a return to and particular emphasis being placed on the fundamental things, the important things, so that certain basic things can be brought home even to the child who leaves school in Std. II or IV, basic norms which he will take with him when he leaves school. In this way we have a better chance of countering the abuse of liquor drinking, illegitimate births and crime, etc. Mr. Chairman, I want to express the hope that the authorities concerned will not become despondent. If we speak the language used here last night by the hon. member for Sea Point, if we were merely to see the dark, foreboding side of the picture, then we would have reason to become despondent but there is a favourable side to this matter. That is why I want to express the hope that our educational authorities, the Department of Coloured Affairs and all the authorities concerned, as well as the hon. the Minister, will take an optimistic and courageous view of the Coloured population and will tackle the problems courageously, bearing in mind that human problems of this kind cannot be solved in one decade, but that we must seek a longterm solution, and that in education for the 400.000 Coloured children, in the 14,000 teachers we are in fact able to find a solution to these problems. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, may I ask for the privilege of the half hour? Sir, the Coloured people of South Africa now stand on the threshold of a new political era as the result of the legislation already passed by Parliament this Session. The Government has presented to the country its plans for the future political status and rights of our Coloured citizens. We in this House have already spent some considerable time during the course of this Session in debating the Government’s plans. I feel that no good purpose would be served by my re-hashing in this debate the many important issues involved in the Government’s new plans for the Coloured people. They have already been discussed very fully by Parliament and, as I say. legislation has been passed giving effect to the Government’s plans. I feel that the Coloured people must now become reconciled to the fact that for the foreseeable future at any rate, they are bound by the Government’s blueprint in regard to their political future and that they must accept that position, whether they like it or not. I feel that the Coloured people must accept the fact that the Government has decided that in lieu of continued representation in this sovereign Parliament of South Africa, they are now to have an enlarged Coloured Representative Council to deal with their own affairs. I feel that the time has come for the Coloured people to accept this position and to make the most of it.

I intend to-day to devote some portion of my time in this debate to make an appeal to the Government as well as to the Coloured people in regard to this new Coloured Council. In the first instance, my appeal to the Government is to give to the Coloured citizens every possible help and encouragement to establish a Council which will be truly representative of all the Coloured people living in the Republic of South Africa. Sir, a prerequisite to this Coloured Representative Council is that there should be established as soon as practicable a comprehensive Coloured Voters’ Roll. I know registration on the new Coloured Voters’ Roll is compulsory, but we know only too well from our past experience —and I say this with great respect—how lethargic some of our Coloured people can be and how indifferent they can be towards registration. I feel that the Government, through its Coloured Affairs Department, despite the fact that this may form part of the work of the electoral officer, should as soon as possible appoint teams of Coloured canvassers to go into the Coloured areas in order to encourage and help every eligible Coloured man and woman to register as a voter on the new Coloured Voters’ Roll. At the same time I would like to make an appeal to our Coloured citizens to co-operate as fully as they possibly can in the establishment and the building up of this Coloured Voters’ Roll. The time has come when the Coloured people must really be prepared to do something for themselves in that connection. I feel that the time has come when it is necessary for us to make an appeal to the Coloured leaders throughout the country to close their ranks, to sink their differences and their petty jealousies and to go forward with a determination to make a success of this new Coloured Representative Council. I am sure that I am correct in saying that every well-disposed person in this country hopes that this new Coloured Council will be the success which is envisaged for it. It will help to absorb our Coloured citizens into places and positions of responsibility and may well open up a new vista for them in South Africa. The Coloured people must really make a concerted and determined effort to make the most and the best of the opportunities which are now being afforded them in this Council. I suggest that they must not allow political considerations to stand in their path. I am auite sure that the Coloured people will receive every possible support if they show a willingness to help themselves and a determination to make somethin really worth while of this new Council. They must realize that in the Government’s scheme this Council can ultimately play a very important part for the Coloured people of South Africa. They must realize that this Coloured Council will be the only proper mouthpiece of the Coloured people for the foreseeable future. I suggest that it is therefore the duty of every Coloured leader to do everything that is humanly possible to build up this new Council and to see that this Council has the ear of the Government and the respect of all our citizens.

At the same time, however, the Government must realize that with the lack of finance and with the lack of proper organization, the establishment of a proper electoral system, truly representative of the Coloured people of South Africa, is going to be a very difficult task for the Coloured people themselves unless they receive all possible help, encouragement and guidance from the Coloured Affairs Department. I know the Minister is determined to make a success of this new council and I would urge him earnestly to place at the disposal of our Coloured citizens whatever help and guidance is necessary so that the new electoral roll can be got off to a good start. I want to emphasize that the Minister must not think the Coloured leaders are going to have an easy task in building up this roll or in establishing this council. The Minister must not think that all the Coloured people have accepted the Government’s plan. Already there are rumblings of boycotting this electoral roll, of boycotting this new council and resuscitating the ill-feelings which existed years ago when the present council came into being. Already there are sections of the Coloured people who have declared they will do everything possible to break the Government’s scheme for the Coloured people. Fortunately these people constitute a small minority of our Coloured citizens but they nonetheless consist of a fairly large number of irresponsible men and women, who are determined to make things as difficult as possible for the vast majority of the law-abiding Coloured people in this country and who are prepared to do everything to stultify the Government’s plans in regard to the future of the Coloured people. I would suggest that the vast majority of the Coloured people are willing to co-operate in giving the new set-up a fair trial which the Government has, rightly or wrongly, prepared for our Coloured citizens. But their task is not going to be an easy one by any means. They are going to be confronted by these agitators who are doing everything possible to try and prevent this roll coming into being and this council being established. I therefore urge the Minister to treat this matter as seriously as he possibly can and to give to our Coloured leaders the help they deserve in order to try to bring into being as speedily as possible the new set-up which the Government has in mind for our Coloured citizens.

I am quite certain that this irresponsible section of the Coloured people are receiving help from outside quarters and this irresponsible section must not be taken lightly. Responsible Coloured leaders have handed to me a scurrilous printed pamphlet purporting to have been issued by the “South African Colloured People’s Congress”, in English and in Afrikaans, which has been distributed widely among the Coloured people in this country. I have a copy of the pamphlet here and it is headed “Forward to Freedom”. I propose to read some of the statements in this pamphlet so that the Government can realize that they do not have the entire Coloured community behind them in their future plans and can realize how much intimidation our law-abiding Coloured citizens are being confronted with and what the decent people are up against. The pamphlet reads as follows—

I am reading this so that the House can appreciate the difficulties with which the decent Coloured people are confronted and the intimidation which is being meted out to them. The pamphlet goes on—

I have read this pamphlet at length so that the Minister will appreciate the difficult position the law-abiding members of the Coloured community have to face. From what I have just read the Government will realize that there exists a very strong and a very real, and may I say a very dangerous, underground movement whose function it is to intimidate Coloured leaders and prevent them from pursuing any course of action which might help to build up this Representative Council envisaged under the Government’s new plans. I am certain the vast majority of the Coloured people will not allow themselves to be intimidated by these agitators. I am satisfied that the vast majority of our Coloured citizens will continue to remain law-abiding and will help to maintain law and order in our country as they have done in the past always whenever this country has been confronted with any crisis. The most law-abiding section of our people generally have been the Coloured people of South Africa. I felt however that I should draw the Government’s attention to what is happening so that they do not think all the Coloured people are behind them in their plans for the Coloureds. I want to draw the Government’s attention to what is happening in the hope the Government will do everything possible to help and encourage the vast majority of our Coloured citizens who are anxious to establish a truly representative council of responsible persons to speak on behalf of the Coloured people of South Africa.

I was very glad to hear from a speech made by the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs in the Other Place that one of the first subjects he would ask the new Coloured Representative Council to deal with, would be that of social welfare services for their own people. I am very glad that the hon. the Minister said this. It is a statement for which the Coloured leaders have been waiting for some time. This is one of the most important matters affecting our Coloured citizens, namely social welfare work amongst their own people. I am sure that Coloured leaders are very anxious to deal with this subject as early as possible. The Coloured people will welcome the opportunity of coming to grips with the social welfare fields of their own people.

As has already been pointed out by previous speakers in this debate one of the most important matters with which Coloured leaders are confronted and which will require the constant attention of the hon. the Minister is the question of Coloured education. Coloured leaders have expressed a great deal of alarm and uneasiness in regard to the trend in this very important department, namely the Department of Coloured Education. I must say at once, and I say this in all fairness, that there has been an improvement in the number of children attending the Coloured primary schools. What is alarming and is causing a great deal of uneasiness in the minds of Coloured leaders is the fact that firstly there are not enough matriculants emerging from the Coloured pupils, and secondly that there are not enough matriculants entering the teaching profession. These are two important aspects to which the hon. the Minister must apply his mind. To my mind the reason for this unfortunate position is a very simple one. It is the inadequate pay which the Government offers to Coloured teachers as compared with the white teachers of this country. I think that that is one of the fundamental reasons behind the shortage of Coloured teachers in this country. It must be remembered that in order to enable a Coloured teacher to qualify professionally he or she has to spend at least three years at the university college to obtain either a B.A. degree or a B. Sc. degree.

And an additional year for the teacher’s diploma.

Yes, as I am reminded they have to spend an additional year there for the teacher’s diploma. During that period these people earn no pay whatsoever. This is a tremendous sacrifice for them. Most of them cannot afford to spend these years furthering their education, and may I say furthering their education in the national interest. It is in the national interest that they are furthering their education. Their financial position is such that most of them cannot afford to attend college and even when they do and ultimately qualify as teachers, the pay they receive is not sufficiently rewarding to compensate them for these years of study which they have devoted to obtaining their degrees. Many of them find it more advantageous to join commerce and industry without furthering their education. The result is that we are not getting sufficient Coloured people taking up the teaching profession in this country. That is another reason why we are not getting sufficient Coloured matriculants and sufficient Coloured matriculants entering the university college with a view to taking up the teaching profession.

It is interesting to review the position of Coloured education since this department was taken over some four years ago by the Department of Coloured Affairs. These figures have been quoted from time to time in this House but they do bear repetition. The average number of teaching vacancies over the past four years is 1,575 per annum. There has been an increase of 708 new teaching positions per annum but against this the average loss to the department due to retirements on pension, deaths and resignations amounts to 867 per annum. The average shortage of qualified personnel is 745 per annum. The only way in which the department is able to meet the shortage is by appointing Coloured married women to the position. The figures for these appointments have increased from 1,474 married women in 1964 to 2,944 in 1967, which is more than double the previous figure. I suggest that this is a very unsatisfactory position because we know and the hon. the Minister will agree with me, that married women cannot be regarded as a permanent part of the teaching structure. There are various reasons for this. They have families and other household matters to which they must attend. They are not the best kind of person to form a permanent part of the teaching structure in this country. Another very alarming aspect of the matter is that only 13 per cent of the Coloured high school teaching staff, possess university qualifications. I suggest that all this is due to the inadequate pay the Government is providing for our Coloured teachers. I think that that is the fundamental reason for the whole problem. I am certain that if the hon. the Minister were to take the bold step of substantially increasing the pay and improving the conditions of service of our coloured teachers, many more Coloured men and women would enter the teaching profession. In addition we would not lose the considerable number of teachers who are resigning from service and taking up permanent residence and employment in Canada and elsewhere because of the higher pay and better conditions of service there. I was interested to read a few days ago that Canada has decided to halt the immigration of our Coloured people and that that country would only consider applications from people whose husbands, parents or children are already settled in Canada. An official statement was made in that connection. This will to some extent alleviate the position here, but I am afraid, and I say this advisedly, that the mere closing of the door to Canada itself is not sufficient. I feel that unless the Government faces up to the necessity of giving substantial increases in pay and providing better working conditions for our Coloured teachers, we will find that most of the aspirant teachers will go over to commerce and industry where the pay and working conditions are infinitely better than those in the teaching profession.

I should like to say a few words about the rather late announcement made about the issue of free school books to Coloured children. I was very glad indeed to learn of the public announcement made by the Secretary for Coloured Affairs, Mr. Bosman, a few days ago to the effect that all Coloured schoolchildren will receive free text books, basic equipment and stationery from the beginning of next year. I should like to say immediately that this decision has been well received, not only by our Coloured people but by the vast majority of our Whites as well. It has the effect of bringing into being a uniform system in this country. It was a great pity that this announcement was delayed for so long. I submit that it should have been made a year or two ago. In any event it should have been made at the same time that a similar announcement was made in regard to the white schoolchildren of the Cape. The delay caused much misgivings, alarm and unnecessary criticism. However, the correct decision has now been made by the department and I am very glad to place on record our appreciation for this deicision as my colleagues and I have clamoured for these free books for quite a long time. I am very glad that this decision has now been taken. Mr. Chairman, it was also very gratifying to hear the suggestion which emanated from Mr. Bosman, the Secretary for Coloured Affairs, that a nautical school for Coloured seamen is becoming a reality. Our Coloured people have for generations played a very important part in the fishing industry of our country, both in the off-shore and in-shore sections of the industry. The fishing industry has realized for some considerable time now that there are not sufficient white men adequately trained to take command of the fishing vessels used in the fishing industry, and that the time has come when everything possible should be done to train and encourage Coloured men to take up these responsible positions.

Here again the question of education arises. A greater degree of education is required if our Coloured men are to be fully trained in the higher ranks of seamanship. The decision to establish a nautical school for Coloured seamen is a very wise one indeed, and I would like to commend the department for having made this very wise decision. Here again I would like to make an appeal to our Coloured people to make use of this nautical school, and to allow their young men to attend this important institution at an early age in order to enable them to obtain a basic training, which will help them to enter upon a career which can be of tremendous benefit to them in their future years.

Now I would like to deal with another important matter, which I have been asked to raise. I would like to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister in his capacity of Minister of Coloured Affairs to do something urgently to help the better class of Coloured persons to acquire suitable housing in the new Coloured areas. I would like to say immediately that I am fully conscious of the good work that has been done by the Minister’s department, the Department of Housing and by local authorities. with the help of the Government, in providing houses for the sub-economic group of Coloured people. But there has now developed an urgent need for a better class of house for these Coloured people. We must not lose sight of the fact that the standard of living of our Coloured people is improving all the time. It has improved over the last 20 years, and it is now improving very rapidly. Quite apart from those who attain professional status, the Coloured artisans have improved their standard of living and have now formed virtually a new middle-class among the Coloured people. There has emerged a new middle-class among the Coloured citizens of South Africa. Local authorities are beginning to realize that this new class of Coloured citizens is no longer satisfied with a sub-economic house, and is no longer satisfied with the type of house that hitherto has been made available to our Coloured people in their own areas. They are anxious to obtain a better class of house of their own. Certainly the better class of Coloured person has striven for this for years. Now this large section of middle-class Coloured people are clamouring to get this better type of house. It must be realized that as time goes on, as education becomes compulsory and more university graduates and professional men emerge from among the Coloured people, the demand for better-class houses will increase. Local authorities are doing all they possibly can to meet this demand, but I am afraid that they will not be able to achieve anything without considerable help from the Government. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Peninsula adopted a very positive and a high tone to-day, and I want to give him the assurance that the entire House appreciates this and also his speech very highly. The hon. member referred here to the shortage of Coloured teachers. I just want to tell him that that shortage is a general phenomenon. This is the case in all education departments, provincial or otherwise, and also in respect of the Whites. This is the effect of the economic prosperity of the country. However, I want to give him the assurance that the hon. the Minister and his Department are very much aware of the problem and that urgent attention is being paid to it.

Members of the Opposition are continuously insinuating that the Government’s Coloured policy is still somewhat in the air and does not make provision for the Coloureds’ ties with the soil, as though this is supposedly an unpracticable policy and leaves an enormous void in our policy. I want to tell the hon. Opposition at once that that argument does not hold water at all. In the rural areas the Coloureds have more than 2 million morgen of land. They have group areas, and in those group areas they have their roots and derive their ties with the soil. But what is more, their political rights are slowly but surely being anchored in those parts, in as far as it is possible. I want to admit that these areas do not form a geographic unit. We would most certainly have wanted it to have been different if we could have remedied it, but we are dealing here with an historical fact, with a situation we inherited from the past. We must accept it and make the best of it. Under the circumstances we are engaged in making the best of it and in anchoring, in the best possible way, the Coloureds’ ties with the soil in those areas in which they are living.

But statistics now prove that 64 per cent of the Coloureds in the Cape have become urbanized and that the rest of them are still living in rural areas. These are statistics about which I am rather concerned. It is a fact that the rural Coloureds are known for the ties they have with their church, their families and their area. To my mind these are wonderful characteristics displayed by the rural Coloureds, characteristics we should not allow to disappear under any circumstances. I am afraid that when these Coloureds—and this has really been my experience—or the rural areas are obliged to move to the cities because of financial and other circumstances, some of those very fine characteristics disappear in the process, to the detriment of the Coloureds. My request to-day is that something should be done to safeguard those characteristics. A population statistical and demographic projection shows us that 206,500 Coloureds were living in Kimberley and the Northern Cape in the year 1960, whereas it is calculated that 591,250 Coloureds will be living in that area in the year 1990. If we consider that we are already living in the year 1968, we realize that we have come very close to that time. That year is hardly 22 years away. I fear that we have no reason whatsoever to think that that calculation will be proved wrong. For that reason we have on our hands a tremendous problem, i.e. that of seeing to it that the Coloureds are settled and established themselves in those rural areas to which I am referring. In this respect I am referring to the extensive area, Namaqualand, in which there is almost 1½ million morgen of rural land for the Coloureds. In the rest of the North-West there is an additional ½ million, which brings the total to almost 2 million morgen. Now I want to ask that industries should be established in that area so that the rapidly growing Coloured population may be anchored in those areas. I want to plead that those areas should also be granted benefits similar to the benefits enjoyed by border industry areas. I do not like the term “border industry area benefits”, in this regard. It is not applicable to or descriptive of those areas, because strictly speaking we are not dealing with border industries here. As far as I am concerned, I prefer the term “settlement benefits”. Therefore I am pleading for the settlement of industries in that area and for settlement benefits to be granted to those industries—in other words, industries should be settled in that area by means of Government aid, with the positive object of keeping the Coloureds settled in that area where they have their natural homeland. In fact, it is in the interests of the Coloured population and the whole country that those industries should be such that they will serve as an attraction for Coloureds from other parts of the country, from those parts where conditions are less healthy and less conducive to the advancement of the Coloureds—morally, ethically, educationally and economically. That is why I want to make a strong plea to-day for the Kimberley/North-West Cape area to be granted certain industrial settlement benefits which will also serve as an attraction for Coloureds from other parts of the country to settle there and to relp them to realize themselves and to build their own nation there.

You may ask, “What is the viability of those areas?” Everybody seems to think that those areas are simply not viable. Admittedly those areas are economically in a very backward position at the moment. But this is definitely not the case because those areas are not viable, but because those areas have as yet received no infra-structure to stimulate economic development. This is a vast area. For instance, the constituency I represent extends over an area of 38,000 square miles, and in that entire area there is not one single mile of railway-line. There is therefore a total lack of infra-structure in any form. The result is that we have there to-day the most expensive electric power in South Africa—the cheapest tariff is 4c per unit. In addition the price of water in our towns is R1.25 per 1,000 gallon. Taking these circumstances into account, one finds it easy to realize why there had not been any development as yet. But this does not mean that the potential for development does not exist there. With the necessary infra-structure the North-West would be viable. At present my constituency alone is already producing copper and diamonds to the value of R47 million per annum. Therefore tremendous potential does exist there. With the infrastructure that exists at present, only the cream of potential can be skimmed off. That still leaves a tremendous potential which can be exploited. [Time expired.]

Over the years the Opposition has been holding up integrated political authority to the Coloureds as the alpha and omega of everything. At the same time they have been holding up to the Coloureds the reputed disadvantages and grievances which another political set-up would imply for them. But fortunately this era has, I hope, passed. In the meantime the Government has continued to foster the socioeconomic and cultural upliftment of the Coloureds. In fact, the Government has been regarding this as a matter of top priority. But now that they have finally been granted political rights, they must nevertheless be assisted in exercising those rights in a democratic and responsible way. Apart from socio-economic upliftment it also requires an accelerated tempo of education so that they may be taught to appreciate that which is their own and to accomplish something through their own initiative. As a result of greater exertion on their part in return for what has been done for them, they will develop a feeling of self-respect and pride, self-respect and pride based not only on individual achievements, but also on their joint achievements as a group.

It is true that in certain spheres a great deal can still be done for these people. However, at the same time there are spheres in respect of which one can expect the Coloureds to contribute their share. It is already possible for us to take appreciative cognizance of the fact that in many fields they have not lagged behind as far as counter-achievements are concerned. Let me refer to education in this regard, a matter on which the hon. member for Gardens also held forth yesterday. He referred to the poor educational facilities that existed for Coloureds, and said that we were not doing enough as yet to provide adequate school and training facilities for the Coloureds. He also asked for compulsory school education, particularly with a view to the large number of children who, between Sub A and Standard V, disappeared from school between the first and last terms. I think he mentioned a figure of 32,000 in this regard. Now I want to ask the hon. member to take note of the fact that the maximum quota in the existing 13 training centres for teachers in this country, is 2,200, i.e. the number of enrolments for which provision has been made. As against that only 1,787 Coloureds enrolled in 1966. At present there are approximately 400,000 Coloured children at school, 150,000 more than was the case 10 years ago. In order to keep pace with this growing number of children attending school, 800 new teaching posts have to be created annually, apart from replacing teachers who retire and who also number approximately 800. Therefore a total of almost 1,600 new teaching posts have to be filled every year. As against this only 2,400 Coloured teachers qualified over the period 1964 to 1966, i.e. an average of 800 a year. Salary increases are not unimportant. In fact, the Minister has already intimated that the matter of salaries is being attended to. But in this regard I should like to quote what was said by the hon. the Minister in the course of a rally for Coloureds held in Kimberley on 17th February. He said there that the question of salaries would be attended to, and went on to say (translation)—

As regards compulsory school attendance, I must point out that the bottlenecks to which I referred, and others as well, will merely be aggravated if compulsory school attendance is introduced now. It would be extremely detrimental to the standard of the education offered. That is why I think that at this stage it would be unrealistic to introduce compulsory school education summarily and blindly. But to my mind it would be a very good policy to introduce it gradually. I want to draw the attention of the hon. member for Gardens to the statement which the hon. the Minister made on 29th December, 1967, and in terms of which compulsory school attendance will to a large extent be applied in 1968 in that it is being provided that all schoolgoing children who live within three miles of a school and who at the beginning of the year are enrolled as pupils at that school, will be obliged to attend that school up to the end of that year. I feel that the hon. member should at least take note of this sort of thing, otherwise it may seem later on that he did not try to obtain the correct information, in which case one’s criticism does sound rather superficial. If it should happen that compulsory school education is introduced for the Coloureds, as it will be when it can be done profitably, then the hon. member should after all not ask for it six months afterwards.

In a booklet called “Opportunities for Coloureds” a former Minister of Coloured Affairs wrote that one could help those who wanted to help themselves. Now, without holding back in any way my appreciation for what is being done in the sphere of education and without belittling what is being done in return, I want to refer to a sphere in which the Coloureds have well and truly come forward with fine counter-achievements.

I am referring to the 20 Coloured rural areas which covers a total area of two million morgen and to which reference has already been made. In 1959, in respect of 10 of these areas, the annual revenue of those boards amounted to R43,284. The cash they had on hand amounted to R 14,610. But as at 31st March, 1968, these boards had a revenue which had already increased threefold and stood at R 146,205, and their cash on hand had increased sixfold and stood at R86,585. In 1961 the annual revenue derived from agricultural products produced in these areas amounted to R192,000, and as at 31st March, 1968, it had already reached the R439,948 level, a tremendous increase of nearly R½ million. Over a period the Government has also spent on these rural areas an amount of almost R1¼ million in providing these people with guidance, in helping the Coloureds to develop as agriculturists, and also in nurturing and meeting by those means their need for feeling connected with the soil, as was said by the hon. member for Namaqualand. In this respect, too, the counter-achievements did not fail to materialize. These people have already paid back more than R30,000, and cognizance can also be taken of the fact that of their own accord they have already spent the sum of R78,000 on development works. These boards consist of Coloureds and they are accepting more and more responsibility so that they may undertake their own development works. They have in fact accepted the responsibility of undertaking these works in full. More interest is being shown in administration in these areas. These people are taking an interest in the elections for their local boards, and in this respect the administrative ability of the Coloureds has improved tremendously. In conclusion, these are therefore areas in respect of which we can take cognizance of the fact that the Coloureds are coming into their own.

The Government’s approach in respect of the Coloureds, i.e. that they should be helped to come into their own by their own efforts, is being proved here to be the correct approach; and if the Coloureds take the helping hand that is being extended to them, and if at the same time they roll up their sleeves and start working themselves, the fruits in the spheres that were mentioned here by other hon. members will not stay away either. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Namaqualand made an astonishing statement this afternoon. He talked in terms of border industries for the Coloured people in order to ensure their settlement in the platteland, which is really something of a contradiction in terms when we have the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration getting up in this House month after month and telling us that we want the Coloureds in the towns in order to replace the Bantu who are being sent out. Sir, you cannot have it both ways; you cannot have your cake and eat it.

But they are confused.

To get back to the practical problems in regard to the Coloured people, I would say that there is hardly any aspect of our discussions of Coloured affairs under this Vote which is not related to their socio-economic situation in one way or another. I think that has been made clear by several hon. members in this debate. I am very pleased that the Minister himself has admitted as much on several occasions, and I am glad that this Minister also admits the complexity of the problems with which he has to deal. I would not be in his shoes for all the tea in China under the circumstances that exist among the Coloured people at the moment. But I particularly endorse his view that all these problems are inter-related If one takes the need for compulsory schooling amongst the Coloureds, that perhaps reflects more than ever the nature of their background and the environment from which they come. It is very interesting indeed that the hon. the Minister made a statement last year in the Other Place on 16th March, when he was dealing with the Training Centres for Coloured Cadets Bill, and this is what the hon. the Minister had to say in regard to compulsory schooling for Coloured children—

That is the problem of having to put young Coloured men from 18 to 25 years of age in labour camps. The Minister said—

Then the hon. the Minister went on to make a very much more important statement. He said—

I emphasize the word “illiterate”—

I emphasize the word “literacy” and not “education”. I want to make a distinction between the two. The Minister then went on to say—

This was at Kromme Rhee—

This was a very important statement by the hon. the Minister which I heartily endorse. In fact, his emphasis there was placed on the acquirement of a basic skill, or the learning of the three Rs in the first few Standards at school, in order to be able to make a living, if nothing else. It is as basic as that. Now the hon. the Minister issued a proclamation in December last year, which we all welcome, which does not increase the school enrolment but does oblige the number of Coloured children who are within three miles of a school and are already enrolled to remain at school for that school year. We commend him also for having taken at least some step in this direction. But the interesting thing is that if you look at the report of the Coloured Education Council, you find that the reasons for the Std. 8 examination failures relate also very largely again to the socio-economic conditions under which the Coloured people live. They talk about the 40 per cent standard being too high and too difficult to attain, and they mention specifically the lack of self-discipline and ambition among the pupils, the irregular school attendance, the home conditions which retard the progress of the pupils in school, and things of that kind.

I make the point that here we have some of the important reasons for the poor examination results in Std. VIII, which is a very important moment in their school life, because these are the people who go on later to the training colleges and training schools and achieve the lower primary teacher’s certificate or, as we call it, the P.T.C. It is quite clear from the report of the Education Council, prepared with the assistance of the Department, that the social background of these pupils has a great deal to do with their failure in educational attainment. I would say that a prerequisite for disciplined, keen and ambitious school children is, of course, a stable family and community life. One wonders how much of that the Coloured child in South Africa ever gets. I wonder how many people know that we have 30,000 illegitimate children amongst the Coloured population in the Republic at the present time and that the majority of those do not have any home-life at all, particularly if the mother has to go out to work. The majority of them do not even know who their fathers are.

Sir, I would like to thank the hon. the Minister for his attitude yesterday in dealing with the question of alcoholism amongst the Coloureds. I was very pleased to hear him suggest that this matter should be approached with care and discretion. It is an extremely delicate matter and it should, of course, be handled as a sociological problem. The Minister is quite correct in that regard. The figures in respect of drunkenness amongst the Coloured population have assumed alarming proportions. In fact, in August, 1966, Mr. J. D. Retief, the senior welfare officer in the Department of Coloured Affairs, stated that 25 per cent of all Coloured men, including Malays, over the age of 20 years can be described as semi-alcoholics. The official figures of convictions for drunken driving and drunkenness over the years prove this to be correct. I just want to mention that in the years 1961 and 1962, with a Bantu population of 11 million and a Coloured population of just under two million, there were 13,000 more Coloured people convicted of drunken driving or of drunkenness in the Republic in each of those years than Bantu. I have no doubt whatsoever that the figures since 1962 have increased a great deal.

But, Sir, there is another disturbing phenomenon, and we find this year after year in the Department’s Estimates, a situation which has now deteriorated very considerably. Some of us find the details in the Estimates rather difficult to assess because they are under rather strange headings, but it would appear that the money voted year after year for all aspects of schooling—I refer to administrative figures— both primary and secondary, including the training of teachers, andl the money voted for welfare for children, for retreats, rehabilitation centres, related services, schools of industries and reform schools, practically balance each other out, and in some instances more money is voted for welfare than for schooling. That is because it is needed; I have no doubt about that. The comparable figures for 1966 and 1967 make even more pessimistic reading because added to the welfare figure there is nearly a quarter of a million rand which has been added for training centres for Coloured cadets. These figures reveal starkly the extent to which welfare and rehabilitation indebtedness to the State go up and up every year, and it looks as though very soon the amount spent on welfare and rehabilitation is going to exceed the money voted for education in the positive sense.

Sir, I want to make one concrete suggestion, if I may, before I sit down. I think we shall have to get to the grass roots of the problem. It is worse than useless really to think in terms of locking up skollies; they cannot be rehabilitated by the time they have reached that age; that is not going to solve the problem at all. I suggest that we should make an all-out effort amongst the Coloured children in South Africa to eliminate illiteracy in the first place. I think this is the essential, especially where the educational backlog becomes greater and greater every year. The basic need, if I may say so with respect, is to get a clear distinction in our minds between literacy as such and education, which is quite another thing. I have a book here which perhaps the hon. the Minister has seen. It is called “Illiteracy, a World Phenomenon”, by Sir Charles Jeffries, an authority on the subject. He talks here about literacy as “a campaign, being essentially the acquisition of a skill”. He then says—

[Time expired.]

The hon. member for Wynberg will pardon me if, in the limited time of 10 minutes I have at my disposal, I do not try to follow up the arguments she advanced, because we also realize that we have a real duty towards the Coloureds.

Mr. Chairman, with your leave I want to plead with the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs to-day the cause of the Whites and, in particular, the cause of the white municipal taxpayers in our northern suburbs. It is a matter which might sound strange to you, Sir, but we do not want to do so in a spirit of antagonism towards the Coloureds. On the contrary, the spirit in which we want to do so, is that we actually want to plead for more assistance to the Coloureds so that the burden which is at present being borne by our white municipal taxpayers in these areas may be lightened. In this process I may touch upon matters or make requests which the hon. the Minister may perhaps reject with good reason on account of the fact that these matters are not his responsibility, but we nevertheless find ourselves in the situation where he is the only person to whom we can address ourselves, since he is after all the person who pleads for the weal and woe of the Coloureds with the various Departments. The task of the settlement of the Coloureds in the Cape Peninsula in particular, is principally the task of the white man to-day. This is the case because it is a proven, accepted fact that it is the wealthier members of the community, who are still the Whites in this case, who have to subsidize the lower income groups in their pattern of living. However, it is also true that this division of responsibility is an unfair one in the Cape Peninsula, because this responsibility is determined by municipal boundaries, which have for the most part been determined as a result of arbitrary, historic development, and not as a result of planned areas. The effect of this fact is that the distribution of the financial burden, particularly the distribution of the financial obligation in respect of Coloured housing and facilities, is an unbalanced and unfair one. In Greater Cape Town—and by this I mean the Cape Peninsula, i.e. those areas which fall under the Cape Divisional Council—-the Cape Town City Council has at its disposal 74 per cent of the total rateable valuation, and it has to accept responsibility for 62 per cent of the Coloured population in the Cape Peninsula. In other words, the rest of Greater Cape Town, with merely 26 per cent of our rateable valuation, has to accept responsibility for 38 per cent of the total Coloured population. This would perhaps not have been such a poor pattern, but what actually renders the situation of the rest worse, is the fact that municipalities such as Fish Hoek, Pinelands and Milnerton, with a joint valuation of almost R48 million which forms part of this 26 per cent of the rateable valuation, do not make any contribution in respect of Coloured housing, Coloured facilities, and so forth. In other words, what it amounts to, is that the municipalities of Goodwood, Parow, Bellville and perhaps to a lesser extent Durbanville and Simonstown as well, must, with their limited resources, make provision for 38 per cent of our total Coloured population. Whilst Coloured housing places heavy burdens on the budgets of those municipalities—and I emphasize the fact that this is particularly so in the northern suburbs and perhaps to a lesser extent in Cape Town as well—the municipalities of Fish Hoek, Milnerton and Pinelands escape their responsibility in this regard, but they nevertheless share in the advantages of Coloured labour in the Cape Peninsula. One asks oneself whether these people, and I am thinking here of the taxpayers of the northern suburbs in particular, are not justified in asking why they should bear the financial burden, why they should be weighed down with this problem every day, whereas others get off scot-free. This problem is very definitely going to become an infinitely more serious one for us in the future. At the end of 1965 there was an estimated population in the Peninsula of 975,000, of whom 334,000, or 34 per cent, were Whites and 517,000, or 53 per cent, were Coloureds. It is also a proven fact that of all the races and population groups in South Africa the Coloureds have the highest birthrate. Supplementary to this matter there is also the tendency amongst the Coloureds, as is also the case amongst the Whites, to move from rural areas to urban areas. However, this is the difference. The Whites do not always settle permanently in the Peninsula, since many Whites move to other areas again, but the Coloureds settle permanently here in the Peninsula. We can expect this tendency to be intensified in the future, since we anticipate major industrial expansion here within the next few decades. Besides, there is still a reasonable reserve of Coloureds in the rural areas. At the present rate of growth it is expected that by 1980 the Peninsula will show an increase of 351,000 people, of whom 283,000 will be Coloureds. In other words, the total pattern in the Cape Peninsula complex will then be as follows: We shall have 390,000 Whites as against 800,000 Coloureds; in other words, a ratio of 2: I in favour of the Coloureds.

I do not like your mathematics.

I do not care what the hon. member does not like; I must say that I do not like him very much. These figures give us an indication of the enormous task which awaits us in this sphere, especially in regard to housing for Coloureds. I would probably not be exaggerating if I say that for the next 10 years we shall annually have to provide a minimum of 4,000 living-units for our Coloureds to enable us to meet their increasing needs. This would require large amounts of money and would entail major annual losses for our local authorities. I shudder at the thought that a few municipalities will have to accept this responsibility. I wonder whether it is not time that we accepted this whole question of Coloured housing as a national responsibility. In recent times a welcome note has been struck in this regard in the sense that the Cape Divisional Council has, subject to certain conditions, declared itself prepared to take over some of these areas, such as Elsie’s River and Bishop Lavis. The Divisional Council is better equipped to handle such matters, since it has the power to impose taxes on all municipalities, taxes which may then be used for this purpose. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in contrast with what we heard in the course of this debate from speakers on the Government side, we frequently heard flat notes from members on that side of the House in respect of the alleged degeneration of our Coloureds. But, surely, the Opposition knows that this is not true. In all spheres upliftment work has already been done for them, and I wonder in what circumstances the Coloureds would have found themselves to-day if the National Party had not come into power. In passing the Coloured Persons Representative Council Amendment Bill, a major step forward was taken in developing the Coloureds as a nation and making them a contented people. For the first time the Coloureds are now being afforded the opportunity to live a full life and to look the world full in the face with self-respect. The Coloured Persons Representative Council has been granted certain legislative powers in respect of finance, education, community welfare, pensions and other matters as determined by the State President. Initially an amount of approximately R50 million is being appropriated for the Council, which they themselves will administer, and I am quite confident that they will exercise control over it in a thorough and responsible manner and for the welfare of their own people.

With further reference to what the hon. member for Tygervallei said, I should also like to refer to the consultative committees and the management committees of the separate Coloured areas. At the moment those consultative committees function in an advisory capacity only. They are defined as follows: “They are responsible for furthering the interests and welfare of the inhabitants of their area and bringing all matters that could have a bearing on them to the notice of the municipalities concerned.” As conditions are at present, these committees are consulted by the municipalities as regards appropriations which are applicable to the Coloured areas. These relate to all those services which are being provided to those areas and to the inhabitants of such a town. Most of the Coloureds live in sub-economic houses rented from the municipalities, and consequently those people do not nay any property tax. They merely pay the rentals, which are collected from them. Except for the basic services such as sewerage services, water and lights, the Coloureds are completely dependent upon the tax-payers as regards additional services that are provided to them. Sometimes these basic services are provided at a loss, and have to be paid for out of the pockets of the white ratepayers.

In Boksburg, the constituency I represent, we have a Coloured community, and it so happens that over the past financial year the municipality has suffered a loss of more than R9,000 in respect of the Coloured area there. Now I just wonder whether the situation has not arisen where the Coloureds accept as a matter of course that all services and facilities should be provided by the Whites. Has the situation not arisen by now whether we as Whites accept as a matter of course that we should spoon-feed the Coloureds? We are all agreed that the Coloureds should accept responsibilities in all spheres and should contribute their rightful share in all respects so that they may develop into a self-supporting population group in their own residential areas. Since the Government has already implemented the major part of its programme of separate development in respect of the Coloureds, the time has therefore arrived for the Coloureds themselves to accept certain responsibilities and obligations in respect of themselves. In their own residential areas there is the need for recreational facilities such as halls, sports fields and other facilities, and I know that the Coloureds are prepared to provide those facilities for themselves. Now I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible for the working inhabitants of those Coloured areas to pay a levy which can be collected by the local authorities along with the rentals. These moneys can then be paid over to the consultative committees, or to the management committees, and they themselves can decide on the utilization of those funds. This will make them feel that they have a share in those facilities and it will also cause them to develop a certain pride in those facilities. After all, it is a fact that one attached more value to what one has accomplished oneself. It will also have the effect that that Coloured community itself will ensure that the facilities acquired in that way will not be damaged so easily. I am thinking, for instance, of how the windowpanes of their halls are being broken, and so forth. I am not advocating a separate system of taxation, but merely a levy which will be of a local nature. This will lead to greater responsibilities which, in turn, can only lead to greater maturity amongst the Coloureds. After all, it is a fact of life that if one wants a minor to achieve maturity, one has to entrust him with certain responsibilities.

I also want to touch upon another matter here. It was with appreciation that I saw in the report of the Coloured Development Corporation what had been done in respect of the Coloureds as regards the establishment of businesses. I had the opportunity of visiting one of the supermarkets here in the Peninsula. The plea I should like to make to the hon. the Minister is whether, through the agency of the Coloured Development Corporation, it is not possible to provide in Boksburg, too, the same facilities for a supermarket, a bottlestore and perhaps a cinema as well for the Coloureds living there. Many of the problems that were mentioned here, can be solved in this way. It would be instrumental in placing the Coloureds on the road to self-development and being self-supporting.

Then I also want to say something in respect of the Reigerpark Coloured area. As the hon. the Minister knows, we have very little space there. The area is small, and it is a geographic fact that there are no possibilities Whatever for expansion in any direction. Have we not perhaps reached the stage already, as far as this matter is concerned, that in cases where housing is provided the Coloureds are given the impression that they must receive a small piece of land along with each house. Is it not possible for us to make use of flat facilities, as we do in the case of White areas, so as to save our valuable land in that way?

Mr. Chairman, I hope that it will not prove too much of a shock to the hon. the Minister if I associate myself with some of the words of praise which have been showered on his unresisting head this afternoon. I want to say that I am very glad, as hon. members who have spoken before me have said, that the hon. the Minister has extended the privilege of free school books to Coloured children. This is much required and I am sure much appreciated by the Coloured community. This is certainly something which may help Coloured parents to keep their children at school longer, which is something that is urgently required if the hon. the Minister is going to be able to recruit the teachers he needs so badly. I was also glad to see the hon. the Minister’s notice about children staying at school for at least the school year in which they were enrolled, if they live within a certain three-mile radius. That will also do something towards starting compulsory education for Coloured children in certain areas. Unlike the hon. member for Peninsula, I think that the hon. the Minister’s department has taken the right step by putting married women teachers in some of the permanent positions and retaining them in these positions after they have married. This is absolutely essential. The whole education system would break down completely if it were not for the fact that married women teachers were employed. This is a struggle that is being carried on in the field of white education, where it is also badly needed. I am glad that a pioneering step has been taken by the hon. the Minister’s department. Married Coloured women teachers make responsible members of the teaching profession. Very many of them are able to go on teaching because their children have grown up, making them able to return to the profession which needs them so badly.

If I am correct, the hon. the Minister’s colleague, the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, to-day gave notice of a Bill which inter alia is going to empower the Secretary for Coloured Affairs to condone for pension purposes service breaks in the case of certain persons. I might say that this is long overdue. I believe that approximately 111 Coloured teachers had breaks in their service and that these were condoned for pension purposes by the Cape Education Deoartment. but when the responsibility for Coloured education was taken over by the Government in 1964 it required legislation to condone breaks in service. Some legal technicality was involved. Of course the delay has been far too long. Those teachers have been very badly penalized in the meantime. Since Coloured pensions are not really among the highest paid in any event, I am very glad to see that at last some steps are being taken to put this matter on the right basis. I hope that it will not be too long before these 111 teachers will receive adequate compensation.

The hon. member for Peninsula mentioned the tremendous shortage of Coloured teachers. This is quite true. He also mentioned that there was a very low standard of qualification in the case of many Coloured teachers. Far too few are sufficiently qualified, particularly for high school teaching. This is a problem which is going to grow and not diminish unless radical steps are taken to improve the conditions of employment of the teachers. The hon. member said that a large number of Coloured teachers have emigrated already and that many more wish to emigrate. He mentioned that the Canadian Government had in fact stopped emigration from South Africa. This is of course not correct. It is indeed, as the hon. the Minister of the Interior made quite clear yesterday in reply to a question from the hon. member for Umlazi, not the position. This is in fact due to a change in the regulations of the Canadian Government which now requires a personal interview with intending immigrants. Our Government has refused to allow a Canadian mission to come into this country to screen the backlog of immigrants waiting to go to Canada, a large number of whom were Coloured people and among whom there were of course many Coloured teachers. If the Government thinks that by putting stumbling blocks of this kind in the way of teachers who have already decided that they no longer want to stay in this country, it will keep these people here, it is really tackling the problem quite from the wrong angle. One cannot make dissatisfied people remain in the country and continue with a profession which they have obviously decided is not paying them sufficiently high salaries.

If they cannot go to Canada, they will certainly look for another country to go to if they want to leave. They will go elsewhere because teachers are in short supply all over the world. If the Government really wants to stop the egress of Coloured teachers, it must do something about the conditions of service, which are obviously highly unsatisfactory, especially since teachers with the same qualifications as white teachers receive only approximately 60 to 65 per cent of the salaries of white teachers. That is the first requisite if the hon. the Minister wants to do something about keeping the existing numbers of teachers who are already in the profession in their jobs, and not have them attracted away from the profession by commerce and industry which is prepared to pay these people much higher salaries. It is no good talking about devotion to duty or vocation because, if people feel that they are not being paid what they are worth, and they find that there are other people who are prepared to pay them what they are worth, they will not remain in the teaching profession. Not only are people presently teaching going to leave the profession, but it will also not be possible to recruit adequate numbers of new teachers. I think this is borne out in particular in the Transvaal.

I do not know what the position is in the Cape, but I have no reason to believe that it is any different. There is a parlous position in the Transvaal, where I understand from a memorandum I have, there is not at present a single pupil in Matric who is prepared to study further and become a teacher. Not one of the pupils in standard X is prepared to become a teacher. Those who are prepared to study further in the B-stream total only 17 out of 140. This is a parlous situation. Where is the hon. the Minister going to recruit his teachers from? He must simply improve the conditions so that first of all teacher-parents can afford to keep their children at school for longer and ordinary parents can encourage their children to stay on at school, knowing that when their children leave school, having matriculated, they will go into a profession which will pay them a decent salary which is comparable to the salaries paid to white teachers. There is a stigma when teachers who have the same qualifications do not receive the same salaries merely because they are of a different race or colour.

The second point, of course, is that commerce and industry then will not be able to attract aspirant teachers away from the profession into their own ranks. This is something which is terribly important. Also very important is to encourage children to stay at secondary schools, because this is where the recruitment can take place. At the moment the number of Coloured children who are leaving school in the lower classes and never even reach the secondary school, is far too high for the future prospects of a well-trained and well-educated Coloured population, without which the growth pattern in this country, the economic development, is going to be stultified. These are the suggestions which are obvious to everybody. It is no good talking about inflation etc.; the one profession which should be exempted from any of these pleas for not having high salaries, is the teaching profession. Because it is on them that the burden of training a young generation for the future, the potential workers and producers in this country, will rest. We are taking a very shortsighted attitude if we do not realize this.

Finally, I wonder if the hon. the Minister would give this Committee some information about the extraordinary event that took place at a Coloured school the other day, at Bonte-heuvel, where a teacher was dismissed, apparently without any reason being given for his dismissal. The children apparently quite spontaneously went into rebellion against this dismissal, since it is apparent that this teacher is a very popular member of the staff. I think that the Committee is entitled to some information about this matter, because it does seem that some high handed action was taken in the case of this teacher. I would be obliged if the hon. the minister would give us some information in this regard.

I do not think there are many other matters II want to raise. I could go on at length on the question of the Coloured teachers, but the points at issue, I think, are obvious to everybody. They have been made by other members and I do not think there is anything much more to say, except perhaps to quote one section out of the memorandum of the Transvaal Association of Coloured Teachers. It says:

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Wynberg said a moment ago that he would not be in the shoes of ¡the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs for anything in the world, because there were so many problems in regard to the Coloureds. That remark made me think that this is the basic difference between the attitude of the Opposition and that of the Government. The Government is prepared to tackle problems and solve them, but as the hon. member for Wynberg put it, if the Opposition sees any problems, they do not want to be in any position to have to tackle it, for anything in the world.

No.

That is what the hon. member said. But arising out of that, I want to say at once that I want to praise the hon. the Minister for the standpoint he adopted here yesterday in respect of what is a very serious problem. He made it clear to this Committee how he was dealing with the matter of the Coloureds. He was dealing with it circumspectly and sensibly. I should like to associate myself with the appeal made by the hon. the Minister.

With the legislation in respect of the Coloureds and their political dispensation, which has been passed during this Session, we have now reached a stage where the weal and woe of the Coloured population has been removed from the white political arena and will remain that way unless people wilfully try to drag it back again. In these circumstances the matter of the Coloureds can be discussed peacefully in this Parliament, with the necessary sense of responsibility and understanding. In the same way the circumstances of the Coloured population can be reviewed in their own Coloured Persons’ Representative Council thoroughly and with a sense of responsibility, without white politics always being present in the background. That this is the case, has been our experience in this (House this afternoon. I want to express my satisfaction at the way in which both sides of the House have participated in this debate. Even the hon. member for Houghton …

Thank you!

… Who is usually as sharp as can be, and who, towards the end of her speech this afternoon, was scratching among the Estimates, and looking for something she could not find, was very tame and subdued in her behaviour. I think it is a sound dispensation which, thanks to this legislation, has been introduced on the Coloureds’ behalf and for the sake of race relations in this country.

I want to advocate that we should not, in these circumstances, view the Coloureds as a problem, but as a responsibility. We must not see them as a stumbling block, but as an opportunity, an opportunity for our white population as well. As long as the Coloureds were involved in white politics, the discussion of their interests, more often than not, appeared to be a problem and a stumbling block in the way of sound political relations. But if we are in earnest about developing the Coloured population until they are an asset to themselves and to our country, as more and more Coloured leaders themselves are also indicating that they are earnestly trying to do, we will no longer see our Coloured population as a problem but as a very great asset to our country. Those of us who have known the Coloureds from our childhood days, are aware of the virtues of the top layer of the Coloured population, as well as of the shortcomings and the backwardness of the large mass of the Coloured population. But what nation does not have its shortcomings? And that is why I want to advocate that we should approach the matter of the Coloureds positively and sympathetically and see how we can help to bridge the shortcomings in order to turn them into the best possible asset. We as Whites must ask ourselves whether the shortcomings of the Coloureds are all attributable to their own inability, or whether a great deal of it has not, on more than one occasion, perhaps been attributable to injudiciousness on the part of the Whites, or is not perhaps the result of confusion which arose amongst the Coloureds because the Whites have in the past quarrelled amongst themselves in regard to the political position of the Coloureds. I believe that we must help our Coloured population develop a national consciousness of their own, because without that the basic problem in respect of the Coloureds’ attitude towards productive labour cannot be solved. How else can a Coloured leader, for example, inspire his own people towards achievements if he does not have them behind him as a nation? I believe further that ties with the soil should be developed amongst the Coloureds, ties with and a love for those parts of South Africa which the Coloureds occupy, cultivate and develop as a community. I also include in that a love for the wonderful capacity of our soil in general, and for the systematic cultivation and conservation thereof. That a very long and exhausting road lies ahead for the Coloured leaders and their people in this regard is obvious, but if they have a love for the land and the soil, and have the will to succeed, then one sees the opportunities for the Coloured nation developing.

This afternoon the question of Coloured education has been discussed extensively. I want to say a few words this afternoon about that part of education of the Coloureds which deals with the preparation for their task which lies outside school education, and to which the Department of Coloured Affairs is devoting such dedicated attention in the form of adult education. I also want to point out that since the Whites are still at present the chief employers of the Coloureds, and will perhaps remain so for a very long time to come—they are in this way ensuring the Coloureds the possibility of a good subsistence—it would be foolish and shortsighted on the part of the Whites to adopt the attitude that it would be to their best advantage if the Coloureds remain undeveloped. That would be a foolish attitude. It is not only in the interests of the white employer, but also in the interests of the Coloureds that his ability to render service should be developed as far as possible, even outside the school. More use should be made of them as workers. The Coloureds speak the languages of our two most important white ethnic groups and understand our way of life, and their way of life agrees to a very large extent with that of the Whites. It is the Cape Coloured who can be developed most rapidly into good workers—much more rapidly than any Bantu nation, for example—for productive labour which is also to the advantage of the Whites. Even if a white employer is burdened by certain shortcomings of the Coloureds, these can and must be eliminated by taking positive steps. The solution does not lie in seeking labour elsewhere.

The solution lies in the elimination of the shortcomings which are perhaps present in the Coloureds who are available. A commendable example of what the Government is doing in this regard, is what is being done in respect of the rural Coloureds. In particular I want to advocate that the rural areas should remain an anchor for the Coloureds, because I believe that, just as for the Whites, the rural areas will have a conservative and stimulating influence on the Coloureds. As an example of this, I want to refer to what is being done by the agricultural gymnasium at Kromme Rhee. There Coloureds are being taught to equip themselves for agriculture. This school is open to all those who have had few opportunities of attending school. There was, initially, after this scheme was commenced, a measure of antipathy amongst our farmers because they feared that a man who had received his training there and who had equipped himself better, would no longer work for him as labourer and would leave. We are living in a world of continual competition in the labour market, and the same applies in South Africa. Our farming population will also have to be prepared to compete for the best and the most efficient labour. This knowledge is beginning to take root amongst our farmers, and progress is being made at this agricultural gymnasium. I should like to pay tribute to-day to the work which is being done by the staff of that institution, and to their exceptional dedication to their task. I should also like to pay tribute to the control committee of that institution which is continually concerning itself with the requirements and practical integration of courses being offered to the Coloureds there. I also want to pay tribute to the way in which love for the soil is being inculcated in those Coloureds. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, before I commence my remarks, I would like to place on record my appreciation for the courtesy and help, that I have had from the officials of the Department of Coloured Affairs, who have responded promptly and efficiently to all queries, which I have sent to them from time to time. There are many of them and many of them are complicated.

Much has been said about teachers and teachers’ salaries and I do not propose to cover the same ground, because it is a well-known fact that among the Coloured community the question of salaries and wages is a very burning question. I want to give two examples of the type of thing, which I think militates against the Coloured person taking his rightful place in the community. I want to take one example, arising from the question of teachers’ salaries, of a 20-year-old artisan’s income in the field of industry and commerce—be he a mason, carpenter or plumber —with a junior certificate and that of a teacher of the same age with a senior certificate and two years training. The artisan gets R1,820 a year and the teacher R1,080 a year. These figures may not be absolutely correct, but for practical purposes they illustrate one of the reasons why young Coloured men and women are not anxious to enter the teaching profession. It is no argument to say that they must make a sacrifice and do the job for the benefit of the community. The second example I want to quote is, that in the nursing profession, a qualified Coloured nurse after seven yearly increments reaches a salary equivalent to a third-year white student nurse.

The result is that they leave the profession in large numbers. I wonder if the hon. the Minister knows that in the last examinations for nurses, a Coloured nurse passed at the top of the group, both white and Coloured combined, and obtained an honours pass. If that person should go on training for seven years, she will only get a salary equal to a third-year white student nurse. I mention these two examples because I find that an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. These are practical examples of the real reasons why there is such difficulty in getting Coloured persons to enter the Government service in these professions. I believe that the whole future of the Coloured community should be examined, because we have heard to-day of the numerous facets, in which these people fail. I can also speak of them in regard to the fields in which they do succeed. In order to get to the crux of the problem and to give these people a chance in life, we have to face up to one thing and that is that it costs them just as much to live as it costs us. Unless we get more teachers and unless the professional people are prepared to enter the professions and work where they will be paid adequately, I think that the position of the Coloured person will deteriorate.

The question of Coloured persons, who want to leave this country has been discussed in this House previously. The question of Coloured persons wanting to emigrate was also mentioned this afternoon. The difficulty Coloured persons have in obtaining passports is legend and I, in my ignorance, used to blame the hon. the Minister of the Interior, until I made some very close investigations and discovered, that these applications are all referred to the Department of Coloured Affairs. Surely the fact that these people want to leave the country must be signal and sign enough, to the hon. the Minister, to realize, and appreciate, that there must be some good reason for this. When these people do go overseas, they are employed in highly paid jobs, they are accepted in the community and they are only too anxious to get their families with them in order to break out into the open and live a new life. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that this is the problem, which faces him, and I think he is making a mistake by stopping these people from going. Those who are forced to remain here, are not happy people, and are frustrated and disgruntled. I for one, do not blame them, nor do I think the hon. the Minister can, if they want to leave the country, and shake the dust of the place off their feet, make a new life and a new start elsewhere.

In the short time at my disposal I want to raise one or two other points. The one is whether we are making the best use of the schools. When I say this I appreciate, like everybody else, the decision to give free books and to make education more or less compulsory for those who live within a three-mile radius of a school. There are a number of Coloured children who live a long way from schools and I want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider seriously the establishment of suitable hostels with bursaries for travel allowances and hostel fees, in exactly the same way as is done for white children in the provincial schools. We will then begin to see a little daylight and will make a far better community out of them. They will be able to receive an education. They will feel, that they belong, and are part of the community, which makes up South Africa. The three things which struck me in the course of my travels around my constituency were the distances, the serious lack of secondary schools and, of course, the old bugbear of compulsory education for all.

The Minister has usually, and probably quite correctly, answered that if they had the teachers they could do it. I believe that the correct procedure here, is first of all, to look at the salary structure of these people, but at the same time I think the Minister should make maximum use of the schools which are in existence by providing the transport facilities and the boarding bursaries for which I have pleaded this afternoon. If he would do that, I think he would find a new spirit among the Coloured community, because they would feel that they were wanted.

The third matter I wish to discuss with the Minister is this question of the cadet camps. I went to a lot of trouble to ascertain what the feelings of the Coloureds really were in regard to these camps. Surprisingly enough, they welcomed the idea, but many of them, if not the majority, thought that these camps were going to be run more or less on military lines, and that these people would get training of a military character. By that I mean, not that they would be taught shooting, etc., but that they would be taught useful occupations in a military atmosphere. The reason they think that is because they feel that the disciplinary code attached to these camps, which is in terms of crimes contained in the Criminal Code, should be brought under the Defence Code, whereby delinquents can be handled by means of court martials and the like. This is the feeling among the community and I commend it to the Minister for his consideration. I also took the opportunity of discussing it with certain military officers, and they feel that these camps could be successfully handled along such lines, probably in conjunction with military camps, which we all hope will be set up by the Minister of Defence, although he has said that the one establishment at Eersterivier is the only one which is envisaged. If the Minister would give some consideration to that suggestion, I think he Would also please the community.

The next thing which comes before me from time to time, is the lack of social workers in the Coloured townships, and also of course the complaints they make of the lack of protection by the police. The Minister has stated in public that he expects assistance and is getting it from the vigilance committees which have been recruited in certain townships. [Time expired.]

Since the hon. member for Karoo, who has just resumed his seat, touched upon matters which had already been covered reasonably well, I shall not follow up the arguments he advanced. I may just make mention of the really positive contribution he made. I found it pleasant to listen to him, and I suppose all of us found it pleasant to-day to be able to debate Coloured Affairs here in an atmosphere of exceptional calm on both sides of the House. When Coloured Affairs come up for discussion here, we usually grab one another by the shirt-front, in a manner of speaking, but it is simply because we have not been discussing the political rights of the Coloureds that we have had such a placid debate. I believe that as far as the education and the upliftment of the Coloureds and the improvement of their position are concerned, both sides of the House have really made a good contribution.

In the few minutes I have at my disposal I should like to say a few words about disability grants and in particular about maintenance allowances paid to Coloureds, and the complications involved in doing so. At the outset I want to make it quite clear that I have no fault to find with the underlying principle with which we are dealing here. In cases Where there is distress in a Coloured family, I believe that it is the duty of the State, and that the latter is also under an obligation to assist in relieving such distress. But now we can pose the question of whether the assistance offered by the State in the process of relieving distress does not often go much further than was the original intention, or whether quite often it fails to hit the mark at all. I want to refer to a few aspects in regard to which there is a great deal of dissatisfaction and discontent. In saying that, I do not only mean dissatisfaction and discontent amongst the Whites; we also find it amongst the non-Whites. As you know, the constituencies of the Coloured Representatives are extensive and very large, and it is not always possible for the Coloureds to make the necessary contact with their representatives. In such cases, of course, they do the obvious thing; they approach the White representatives and discuss their problems with us. In this respect I want to make mention of the exceptional sense of responsibility I have encountered among Coloured leaders when they discuss the problems of the Coloureds with us.

The points to which I actually want to call attention and which cause trouble, are these: When a Coloured family applies for an allowance, investigations are made and sometimes there are factors preventing finality in regard to an application from being reached soon. Sometimes it takes a year or more before a definite reply is received, and if the reply is favourable the Coloureds are paid out as from the date of application, and then it often happens that a particularly large sum of money, often as much as R500, is paid to a Coloured family. Now, you can imagine. Sir, that if one is not used to so much money and such an amount falls into one’s lap all of a sudden, then there would be a tendency not to utilize the money in the right way. In such cases it is often utilized for purposes for which it was not intended. Outsiders regard this as a waste of money, and then they feel that there is ample reason for lodging complaints and feeling discontended. I feel that, particularly in the case where a large sum of outstanding money is paid to a Coloured family, we should take special precautions to ensure that such money is spent in the right manner.

Another general complaint is that the allowances paid to families often encourage workshyness, and that some of the younger Coloureds exploit this position and often live off the recipients of such family allowances for a long time. If one really wants to shirk work, one can manage on very little. This is a phenomenon which is being noticed in our towns in particular. I have thought of how one can deal with, this problem and I want to suggest that municipalities, if they are prepared to exercise better control over the houses of Coloureds living in their particular areas, can to a large extent assist in combating this evil.

Then there is something else which I have often seen and which I feel is wrong. There are Whites who draw the maintenance allowances and spend them on behalf of the Coloureds by buying food and supplies for them. Those supplies are delivered once a week or once every fortnight so that the Coloureds may use them, but it does not take very long before it is known on what day those supplies ¡are delivered, and then one finds guests descending upon that house from all sides. The children for whom that food was actually intended and on behalf of whom the allowance was granted, do not receive their rightful share of that food at all, because it is eaten up by the other guests who visit that house.

I also want to mention a fourth point, i.e. illegitimate children. As you know, Sir, the position at the moment is that an allowance is paid in respect of illegitimate children when the lawful father cannot be traced. I think many irregularities take place in this regard. There are many Coloured children whose lawful fathers are in fact known, but this fact is very easily concealed. The appeal I should like to make to the Department, is that in this respect we should put the screw on a little more tightly, and that fathers who have begotten children should be held responsible for caring for those children and ensuring that those children get what they need. I realize that when it comes to legislation one cannot adjust one’s sieve so accurately that one may separate those who need and deserve assistance from those who do not need it. I think we can accept that there will always be a certain percentage of Coloureds who will receive maintenance allowances and disability grants which they do not really need, and, on the other hand, that there will be those who should receive them but do not. In this respect the general public can assist us to a large extent. It is impossible for the officials of the Department to be eveiywhere and to keep an eye on all cases at all times. If the public wants to co-operate by bringing to the notice of the Department cases which require assistance, those cases can be investigated; and, on the other hand, if in cases where these allowances are not utilized in the right manner, the public would take the trouble to bring such cases to the notice of the Department, these matters can be set right. But in this respect we really do not receive much assistance from the public. The public is much more interested in criticizing from a distance than it is to contribute its share towards finding a solution to this problem and towards assisting in making this system function properly.

I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Peninsula said in connection with the salaries of Coloured teachers. I do not want to go into that any further. It has been dealt with adequately, but if we consider what progress Coloured education has made since it was taken over by the Department of Coloured Affairs, it is disturbing to see how it is being handicapped by the shortage of Coloured teachers. We have heard in this House that last year alone 380 teachers left the country to teach in other countries. I hope the Minister will give positive attention to the salaries, because this is the main cause of it.

I want to bring a matter of a lesser nature of which I happen to have some knowledge, to the notice of the hon. the Minister. It concerns the Coloured village of Mamre, approximately 35 miles from Cape Town. This traditional Coloured village was established by the Moravian missionaries in 1880. Prior to that it was a military outpost of the Dutch East India Company, from 1701 to 1791. It has a church which the missionaries built there and which was declared a national monument last year. The village has a unique appearance with its typical thatched houses which are built by the people themselves of locally obtained material. Now that the Department of Coloured Affairs has taken over the administration and management of the village, we hope that if further extensions are added, the unique appearance of that little village will be maintained. I also want to ask that when further housing is to be provided, the Department should consider building the same type of house which we find there at present, and with local material, because I am convinced that this will be much cheaper than doing it in the usual way, i.e. by calling for tenders. The population of that village is such that each morning 17 large buses, loaded with people Who work in Cape Town, leave Mamre for Cape Town. The fact that people living in Mamre have to work in Cape Town is a clear indication that further expansion should be provided for people who work in and around Cape Town. If the development which has taken place particularly in Milnerton over the past years is taken into account, it is clear that an industrial complex is developing there. In addition we must bear in mind that the fishing harbour near Rietvlei will be situated in the Milnerton area. It seems to be unpractical to expect or to plan in such a way that the labour for that industrial complex and for the fishing harbour should come right across Cape Town from the Coloured complex on the Cape Flats. Therefore this seems to be the practical and obvious place for housing to be provided for Coloureds on a larger scale. This is the obvious place for various reasons. In the first instance it is a traditional Coloured area with its own character; it is within reasonable distance of Cape Town and the developing areas. The people are already making use of bus transport to Cape Town, so the tendency already exists at present. The land in the neighbourhood of Mamre is still reasonably cheap, but with the development which is taking place there now, the land will become very expensive and it will cost much more to develop that place and establish the people there. A further reason is that the road along the West Coast, which will make it even easier to reach the village from Cape Town, is going to be developed. There are further practical considerations, which have to be taken into account, such as that Escom power is available there. As a result of the new water schemes on the Berg River the necessary water will also be available there. A further consideration is that the seaside area opposite that village has hardly been developed, owing to the lack of access roads. If a seaside area should be given to the Coloured population of that village, it would not cause any disruption of vested interests. I therefore want to ask the hon. the Minister to give his serious attention to this, in consultation with the Minister of Planning, and that planning should be undertaken in good time with a view to developing that area as an additional Coloured residential area for Cape Town and its environs, and that people working in Cape Town will not be expected to come right across Cape Town from the present Coloured area which is being developed on the Cape Flats.

There is another aspect I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister, and that is that in one municipality after another in my constituency I have met with the problem that a Coloured residential area is declared, that houses are built and people are settled there, but that it takes a Coloured ages to obtain business premises in that area. The members of the town councils or city councils concerned in the matter are usually local businessmen,, and I cannot but come to the conclusion that they want to prevent the establishment of Coloured business concerns in the Coloured area for as long as possible because these will affect their own business concerns in the town. I feel that where such cases occur, the Department of Coloured Affairs should approach the Provincial Administration and ask the Administration to see to it that the local authorities concerned make business premises available to the Coloureds. I feel it is unfair that the development of these people should be hampered in this way. In one case which is well known to me, the Coloured Development Corporation is prepared to finance Coloured business undertakings, but they simply cannot succeed in persuading the owners of existing business concerns to sell their concerns to Coloureds.

Then there is another case which I want to bring to the notice of the Minister, and that is the case of a female Coloured teacher. When Coloured Education still fell under the Provincial Administration, this Coloured woman, who is a divorcée, had five school-going children. She received no money from him; he simply ignored the order of court. He is a useless unemployed person and cannot be traced either.

At that time the Provincial Administration granted her a cost of-living allowance on the scale of an unmarried woman. Quite some time after Coloured Education had been taken over by the Department of Coloured Affairs, it was suddenly discovered that her husband was subject to an order of court and that she should receive money from him, and not only was her cost-of-living allowance stopped then, but she was also forced to refund what had allegedly been paid to her illegally. I went so far as to submit a certificate by the Magistrate’s court at East London to the effect that that man had never given her a cent and that he could not be traced. This was done at the request of the Department, but nothing has as yet been done about the matter and she has to continue repaying the money she had been overpaid, and at the same time she has to make do with the reduced cost-of-living allowance of a married woman. If the Provincial Administration was prepared to grant this woman a cost-of-living allowance on the unmarried scale, why cannot the Department of Coloured Affairs do the same? I shall again make the particulars available to the Department, although the Department already has them on record. I hope that in cases such as this where there is real hardship, the Department will be able to do something about the matter and that the same rules will be applied as had been applied by the Provincial Administration.

Mr. Chairman, I found it a real pleasure to listen to the discussion of this Vote. It really testified to an objective approach by all the speakers who participated in the debate, and I want to express my appreciation to the entire Committee for the positive, objective approach. Even the contributions which contained points of criticism were to my view positive in this respect that they testified to an understanding of the complicated human problem we are faced with here. To begin with, therefore, I want to express my appreciation for that.

I want to begin with the first speaker on the Opposition side, the hon. member for Gardens, who expressed his concern about quite a large number of educational matters. He stated that enough was not being done for education and he dealt with various aspects of it. I readily concede that a great deal can still be done, but in all fairness, you will allow me to mention a few aspects which will show the picture as a whole. I think that what has been done since 1964, when the Department of Coloured Affairs took over Coloured Education, is really impressive. If one listens now to a few of the particulars which I am going to furnish, one cannot but conclude that we have, since that time, been engaged in an impressive programme. Since the take-over of Coloured education, 103 primary school buildings have been made available, with altogether 1,508 classrooms; 8 new secondary schools have been built, with 92 classrooms; and 17 high schools, with 197 classrooms. In addition there are at present 90 projects for new buildings on the Estimates, which are in various stages of planning. This definitely testifies to the fact that this Department is tackling its difficult task with great zeal and enthusiasm, but this zeal is also being reflected in the percentage of passes. This statistic has already been furnished to hon. members in reply to questions, and I am not going to burden this Committee with it unnecessarily now, but I do want to mention one statistical item as far as the senior certificate is concerned. Last year we had the wonderful pass figure of 64 per cent in the Cape. If one takes this figure into account, one realizes what is being done by the educationists who are dealing with this major task. I think that they deserve the appreciation of each one of us for what they have accomplished.

The hon. member for Peninsula, to whom I shall come in a moment when I deal more specifically with his contribution, also expressed his concern about the number of matriculants. This is a matter in regard to which I have expressed my concern on all public occasions when I addressed Coloureds and have urged them to encourage their sons and daughters to complete their school career. Fortunately there are encouraging signs that our teachers, who form such an important link, are making use of the various courses which we have established to equip themselves better in order to make these pass figures available. We have special refresher courses, we have orientation courses, and the way in which we are making use of these is really encouraging and I want to express my appreciation for that.

In regard to the question of compulsory education, I do not really deem it necessary to repeat previous arguments. The hon. member for Gordonia gave a summary here of the reasons why we are unable at this juncture to introduce compulsory education. We have in fact, by way of the regulation to which the hon. member referred, taken a step in this direction, and I think that we will for the time being have to leave it at that, in the light of the arguments which the hon. member for Gordonia stated here. Fortunately there has been, according to the statistics, a very gratifying improvement as far as attendance is concerned. This is attributable to various factors, inter alia, the regional boards and the school committees on which the Coloureds are serving and on which they can contribute their share, and one would like to express one’s appreciation for that. That we are in future going to find it a bit of a struggle to obtain a steady supply of teachers, is a fact we have to face up to. It is a fact which is the result of our entire socio-economic programme, and the development which we have set in motion in the economic sphere. The development of affording the Coloureds a place in the Public Service is drawing the available matriculants and others away from the teaching profession. In other words, education must to-day compete with quite a number of sectors, which was not previously the case. I do not think we need be unnecessarily concerned about this. The question of salaries is of course an important one. The hon. member for Gordonia repeated the standpoint which I stated to the Coloureds in Kimberley, and which I still adhere to. Hon. members are aware of the fact that with effect from 1st April, 1967, we granted teachers a salary increase of one notch. I can also say, in reply to the hon. member for Outeniqua and other members who referred to this, that it is a matter which is still receiving attention from the Government. Unfortunately I cannot say more than that at this juncture. For a time we found the number of resignations, which was sometimes used for propaganda purposes to show to what extent the ranks of the Coloured teachers were being depleted, a cause for concern, but the number of resignations has gradually decreased. It decreased from 380 in 1967 to 64 during the first quarter of 1968. Therefore, there has been an improvement in this trend, at which one can also express one’s gratification. We are trying, with bursaries and other means, to encourage the teachers to continue their studies, and I can inform hon. members that these are in fact being put to good use.

I come now to the hon. member for Malmesbury, who raised a number of important matters. Inter alia, the hon. member raised the question of Coloured drinking premises in white areas. He also asked whether those localities should not be removed to the Coloured areas. This is an important sociological problem. It is also a matter which affects the good relations between Whites and Coloureds. These cases to which the hon. member referred—and the hon. member for Sea Point also referred to them, but he did so in a way to which I reacted last night—is of such a nature that it is annoying the Whites and is prejudicing the goodwill of the Whites towards the Coloureds, and that is why it is a matter which is in fact receiving careful attention from the Government. This is a matter to which the Government did not begin giving attention to a short while ago; the Government had been giving its attention to this matter for a long time. When the present Prime Minister was still Minister of Justice, he had this in mind when he introduced the Liquor Act. The question of excessive drinking and this question in particular of the possible removal of drinking premises, to which the hon. member for Malmesbury and others referred, is of course a matter which falls under my colleague, the Minister of Justice, who is administering this matter in terms of the Liquor Act. I am now able, with leave of the Minister of Justice, to inform the Committee that he will deal with this matter during the discussion of his Vote, and will suggest a solution which will eliminate certain of the evils. The Department of Coloured Affairs will of course co-operate in this matter, to the extent to which they are concerned in it.

The other aspects of excessive drinking are of course being tackled in other ways as well. You are aware of the various Boards on alcoholism and the National Council for Alcoholism, which are welfare organizations and which are dealing with this problem. In this regard as well there are certain facts which make one feel less pessimistic than the situation sometimes appears to merit. From statistics it appears that there has in fact been a decrease in the number of Coloureds who have received sentences for drunkenness. The number has recreased during the past few years, and this is one ray of light. However, it remains a major sociological problem, in regard to which the State can also assist. But I think that this is a matter which should be tackled by the community as a whole as well as by the Coloured community itself, and I hope that they will do their duty in this respect to the fullest extent possible.

In addition the hon. member referred to the misuse of pensions and allowances. It was only last year that I announced that the Department would take certain steps to combat these abuses more effectively than had been done in the past, and as a result of the investigations which were instituted during the period 1st July, 1967, to 31st March, 1968, 157 applications were refused ibeause unemployed persons were living with the family. One hundred and seventy four current cases have been cancelled owing to misuse, and 630 payment cases were placed under administration. These figures indicate that we are in fact keeping a careful eye on the payment of pensions. We are keeping a watchful eye open for abuses, because the abuse of social pensions also has a prejudicial effect on the White-Coloured relationships. When the Whites see that the Coloureds waste public money to such an extent, they become upset, and the Coloureds cannot in this way improve their own positions, and that is why we believe that we will continue with this control.

The hon. member for Malmesbury asked whether we could not re-establish the old local pension committees. These committees did in fact exist in the past, but I have been informed that fundamentally they did not render a large contribution to the actual combating of the problem. Often their activities caused major delays and even privations. What one should actually do in this regard, has a bearing on what the hon. member for Mossel Bay has just advocated here, and I want to associate myself with that without reservation. It is that the public would also like to make a contribution. Perhaps we are all the watchers on the wall, and if members of the public see that abuses are taking place, I think it is their task to bring these cases to our attention.

The hon. member for Sea Point referred, inter alia, to the question of coupons which can be issued for food and clothing instead of pension money. However, it would entail: tremendous administrative costs, and we feel that it is not in fact a practical system to apply ourselves to.

The hon. member for Peninsula raised various matters. In the first place I want to express my appreciation to the hon. member for the positive and realistic attitude which he adopted here this afternoon to what he called the “new era” we were entering. It was a matter which he opposed because he was not satisfied with it, but as a practical person he is now accepting it as a new era, and we as practical people can rightly describe it as the pattern for the future. That is why I appreciate it that he has urged the Coloured leaders to make the best use of this constitutional pattern, and because he has enjoined them to contribute their share in making a success of this Council. I have myself on a former occasion said—and I repeat it to-day, that we have now indicated a course for them, we have now established a body, but it is now to a very large extent going to depend upon the Coloureds themselves as to how much respect will be felt for this body and of what value it will be.

The hon. member also asked for assistance to be granted in affording the well-to-do Coloureds the right type of housing. It is an important matter because every nation in the world depends on its middle class. It is neither the very rich nor the very poor who constitute the strength of a nation, but as we know, it is the middle class which carries a nation. For the Coloured population a middle class must be built up, and that middle class must obviously be able to live in a better type of house, if they so desire. Progress is being made with this matter. In fact, when I was in Bloemfontein the other day to attend some or other Coloured gathering I discussed this matter specifically with the City Council there, i.e. the matter in regard to the new layout which is being envisaged for Coloured housing. Part of that lay-out can be set aside, which may be owned exclusively by Coloureds. It will be possible for them to own that property, and they will be able to feel proud of the fact that they can make a living there.

The hon. member for Peninsula also referred to the question of the voters’ roll which still have to be drawn up. He spoke about the registration of Coloureds in terms of this new measure which we have passed here. The registration work will soon be proceeded to, with the assistance of the Department of the Interior. The plan is to have registration points at all magistrates, police and regional offices of Coloured Affairs and the Interior, where the Coloureds can have themselves registered. We also intend launching a large-scale publicity campaign, by means of the radio and the publications at our disposal, to bring it to the attention of the Coloureds that they must register at those places. It is also our intention to make a very serious appeal to employers to help Coloureds in their employ to register. In addition the Coloured political parties also have a major task to fulfil in this regard. We who belong to political parties know that it is one of the primary tasks of a political party to undertake the registration of voters. A party usually registers those people which support it. It is a primary task of a political party to do so. In fact, it is one of the lifegiving factors of a political party, on which it engages, and I really trust that the political parties, together with the other bodies, will play their part in making the voters’ rolls as complete as possible.

The hon. member for Piketberg also referred to the question of excessive drinking. My inspectorate of education are concentrating upon constantly bringing the social disadvantages of excessive drinking to the attention of the teachers. They are constantly seeking the co-operation of the teachers in this task to act as educators in this regard. I can just mention to the hon. member that since the beginning of 1968 guidance in this respect has been a compulsory subject in all schools, and the question of the combating of excessive drinking, is one of the matters which is included in that guidance programme. In addition the Department of Information has, at the request of my Department, made a film on excessive drinking, which runs for 40 minutes. I have just seen that picture in Pretoria, and I think it ought to have very good results. These are all means which are being applied in order to combat this problem through the medium of education.

The hon. member also referred to the need for the distribution of Bibles in schools, a matter in regard to which I think we are all in complete agreement with him, and in respect of which I give him the assurance that we are doing quite a good deal. If we bear in mind that we have over the past three years distributed 52,000 Bibles in schools, then I think that it testifies to the fact that we realize the desirability of such a step. To this must be added that in many of our part-time classes, where adults are learning to read and write, the Bible is being used as a textbook. And it must also be addled that from 1959 Bible study will be prescribed as a matriculation subject.

The hon. member for Peninsula also referred to the question of married Coloured women teachers. This is an important factor. As hon. members may perhaps recall, steps were recently taken to employ married women on a more permanent basis. We realize to the full their value for the teaching profession and I can assure hon. members that we are very satisfied with the service which married women teachers are rendering for us.

The hon. member for Namakwaland referred to a population projection, for the Kimberley and the North-West areas, of the expected population increase over a certain number of years. It is calculated that by 1990 approximately a half million Coloureds will be living in that area. He then advocated that certain settlement benefits for that large population in that area should be established. This did not meet with the approval of some of the other members, members who felt that this was contrary to the policy of the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education. It is true that one cannot have one’s entire population living in cities. A large portion of the people must be in the rural areas, and that is where its spiritual resources actually lie. To afford this half million which will by 1990 have been settled in that area, a sub-sistance, additional undertakings will certainly have to be tackled. This is a matter which to a large extent falls within the sphere of my colleague, the Minister of Economic Affairs. But in any case, I want to give the hon. member the assurance that I realize the desirability of keeping a large section of that Coloured population in those rural areas and that we should really give some attention to the question of whether certain settlement undertakings cannot be established there.

The hon. member for Tygervallei raised a very difficult matter, i.e. the problem being experienced by the municipal ratepayers in the northern areas, where these large Coloured complexes are in fact a municipal liability. This is a problem in regard to which I am very sympathetic. In the first place it is of course an unavoidable part of the development of a community that it should bear the responsibility of the non-white groups, whether these are Bantu or Coloureds. That is so. But I want to concede that, in view of the large concentration—and the concentration of Coloureds is going to increase—it is in fact unfair that this should continually be placed on the shoulders of the white ratepayers. The ideal situation would of course be to have those Coloured areas converted into a distinctive Coloured local authority. This is one of the aims of the Government. That is why one of the members of the Executive has been entrusted with the question of local government. I hope that it will be possible for us to make considerable progress in that direction in the near future.

The hon. member wanted to know whether the question of Coloured housing oould not be accepted! as a national responsibility. To a large extent this is already the case, for funds which are derived from the National Housing Commission are being utilized for the erection of the most of the housing schemes. All of us who see what is happening in the environs of Cape Town and other cities are aware of the construction work which is taking place on such a large scale. In future it will simply be necessary to continue doing so in order to make provision for this serious housing shortage.

The hon. member for Boksburg made a plea for a supermarket in his area, for which I of course have the greatest sympathy. The hon. member and other members visited a number of these places the other day, including the supermarket in Athlone, which I myself visited this week, and were impressed by the really excellent quality of that supermarket. Socially this can also contribute a great deal to keeping the Coloureds in the area in which they are living, because in that supermarket they can purchase everything that is possible to purchase in any one of the supermarkets in the city. These items are being offered at prices which are quite competitive. Consequently a supermarket there does not only have an economic value by offering Coloureds opportunities for employment and by training them so that they may even occupy managerial posts, but it also has the social advantage that it is possible to keep the Coloureds in that area.

The hon. member for Stellenbosch referred, inter alia, to Kromme Rhee for which I am very grateful; there equally important work is being done to train the Coloured agriculturally. I am particularly grateful for the interest which he is displaying in this regard.

The hon. member for Karoo referred to the cadet centres and the concern the Coloureds were supposedly feeling in that these were supposedly militaristic. But even though these cadet centres fall under the Department of Coloured Affairs, they are nevertheless cast into a military mould. We have never denied this. We must discipline those Coloureds. That is one of their greatest needs. How can one discipline people if it is not done on a military basis? With a view to this, the co-operation of the Department of Defence was obtained. My colleague, the Minister of Defence, agreed that officers of the Coloured corps could be used for the training in that training centre. I think that this will only lead to good results for those Coloureds who need it.

The hon. member also referred to the shortage of social workers, a matter in regard to which I cannot agree more. There is a shortage, and all of us will constantly have to urge the Coloureds to do social work amongst their own people. We have introduced a social work course at the University, and have made bursaries available. But these are, alas, not being used to any great extent. I really want to express the hope that more Coloureds will make use of these facilities.

The hon. member for Mossel Bay raised the question of applications for disability grants which were being delayed. All that I can say to him is that as far as those arrear pensions to which he referred are concerned, payments will in future be made from the date of approval of the allowance, and no longer, as was previously the case, from the date of application.

In regard to the other aspect which the hon. member raised in regard to the fathers of illegitimate children, I can only give him the assurance that great pressure is in fact being applied to them to face their responsibilities.

The hon. member for Karoo—to return to him again—raised the question of hostels and boarding-house travel bursaries. In this regard I can only give him the assurance that the policy is to give those bursaries to pupils attending secondary and high-schools. If the hon. member were to glance at the Estimates, he would see that for the 1966-’67 year an amount of R262,000 was made available for that. As far as primary school pupils are concerned, our point of view is that they should at least live close to home. There they can receive their best training within a family context. But we realize that there are in fact cases where long distances have to be travelled, and in those cases we are in fact considering the possibility of affording boarding-house facilities to such primary school children as well.

The hon. member for Boksburg also referred to the question of welfare work and local authorities. In this regard I can just inform the hon. member that there is an interdepartmental committee which consists of Departments of Social Welfare and Pensions, of Indian Affairs and of Coloured Affairs. They are at present investigating the possibility of helping local authorities with the establishment of welfare institutions, and they are also considering the granting of a subsidy to such institutions, particularly as far as the defrayal of their administrative costs is concerned.

The hon. member for Wynberg stated, inter alia, that the educational expenditure was approximately the same as the welfare expenditure. This is not a correct presentation. If the hon. member were to look at the educational expenditure, she would see that in these Estimates, it amounts to R32 million. The actual expenditure on child welfare amounts to only R5 million. I think it is unfair to include old-age pensions under this, in order to try and reduce the educational expenditure in that way. Old-age pensions are to a large degree being paid to people who can no longer achieve much. I really do not know what the hon. member had in mind with this comparison, because to me it does not sound at all positive. I come now to the question of literacy, to which the hon. member also referred. I can just inform her that with the introduction of part-time classes, one of the principle aims was to promote literacy amongst the Coloureds. The demand for classes such as these is very encouraging. During the past two years 3,000 adults have made use of them.

The hon. member for Houghton asked me to say something about the incident at the Arcadia High School. I do want to say something about it, but what I want to say is very little. As hon. members have seen in the Press, there was a strike at that school. It was caused by the incitement by a certain Mr. Bastiaan. As a result of this an investigation is being instituted at that school. The latest report is that all is peaceful there. Circumstances are returning to normal. Nevertheless I shall want a very thorough report, not only in respect of the said teacher’s incitement, but also in respect of others who participated in that, because at that school, and in any other place, they must realize that there shall be order in this country.

In conclusion I want to come to the hon. member for Outeniqua, who spoke about the replanning of Mamre as a town. The proposal that Mamre should also make provision for the housing of a large number of workers in the Cape is a possibility which we are considering. At the same time we feel that Mamre, in the same way as Genadendal, is a place which has such historical value that care will have to be taken when it is being replanned to ensure that it retains its character. It is an inspiration to our country and to the Coloureds to have a place like that. In future Mamre and Genadendal, to mention only two places, are really going to constitute a increasing cultural historical value for our country. I think I have replied to the most important questions. I want once again to express my appreciation for the very fruitful discussion which has taken place on this Vote.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 45,—Bantu Administration and Development, R37,160,000, and Loan Vote N,—Bantu Administration and Development, R48,280,000:

Mr. Chairman, may I have the privilege of the half hour? The Government advocates its race policy on the ground that it offers self-determination and separate freedoms to the various race groups. As far as self-determination is concerned it is logical only when applied to the Bantu because it promises them self-determination to develop to the ultimate in political progress, namely to sovereign independent reserves or homelands, if they so desire it. If they do not desire it they are nevertheless put on the way and given no other choice or determination except to refuse the final break from the Republic. The only reserve where the experiment is now being carried out is the Transkei. It is therefore proper that we consider what is happening in that territory because what happens there will be a pointer to what happens elsewhere in the other reserves when the experiment is tried there.

Firstly let us consider the Bantu themselves and what their reaction is. They are politically divided. Some accept the Government’s offer and others refuse it. The Transkei National Independence Party under Chief Kaizer Ma-tanzima, at present the governing party, accept this offer and the promise of independence. There are also others who support that policy but who are more impatient than Chief Kaizer. They want independence immediately. The promise has been made to them and they want it now. As hostility to our Government’s policy grows, that is to say, the policy as it is applied to the Transkeians outside the reserves, namely in the form of restrictions on their admission to and residence in the white areas, so will they be more hasty to seek the breakaway. The movement for immediate independence is gaining ground. We have seen from recent reports in our newspapers that there was a debate on this issue recently in the Transkei Legislative Assembly. The motion, which was carried, asked the Government of the Transkei to prepare for independence as soon as possible. There were two amendments. One which rejected the concept of independence, and refused it altogether, was moved by the opposition party, the Democrats. This amendment was rejected, as was another amendment asking for independence in 1968. The movement for independence is therefore gaining ground. The Bantu are divided. There are those who largely support the Government under Chief Kaizer Matanzima and those who are opposed to the policy of separation. They do not call it separation but separate development. Unfortunately the term “separate development” is applied to Government policy in its entirety, as the Government proposes to carry it out. The words “separate development” can be literally interpreted as being separate economic and political development for the different groups. But they attach all the different facets of the Government’s policy to this term. It has become a term of abuse in the Transkei. One only has to read the debates in the Legislative Assembly to see the definitions applied to separate development. Those words are now as unpopular there as was the word “apartheid”, a word which the Government tried to shed. The Government tried to get away from the word “apartheid” but the Bantu attach the whole stigma of apartheid and its odious terms, as far as they are concerned, to the present words “separate development”. The majority of the Bantu belong to the group which opposes Government policy.

How do you know?

They won the majority of the elected seats in the last general election. In the last by-election they won a certain seat with a very great majority as well. I think it was 80,000 votes to 62,000. The only tests we have had so far show that the voters themselves reject the Government’s policy and that they support the Democrats. But there is a general election coming, later this year, when this will be tested again. The nearer we get to that election, the more the Transkeian National Independence Party will try to dissociate itself from Government policy. It has happened before. The hon. the Deputy Minister will remember that on one occasion, when there also was a by-election, Dr. Verwoerd himself had to rebuke the Chief Minister of the Transkei for a speech he made on the Witwatersrand in which he told his people living in Soweto to ask for home ownership and not to come back to the Transkei because there was no work for them. The hon. the Deputy Minister will remember that Dr. Verwoerd then told him that that was no concern of his and that it was Government policy that was being applied in Soweto. Recently we again had statements from Chief Kaizer Ma-tanzima as well as motions in the Transkeian Assembly asking for more land for the Transkei. The Minister will know that they have now asked for Maclear, Elliot, Mt. Currie, Matatiele and Port St. Johns. This raises an interesting question. Recently we altered section 60 of the Transkeian Constitution. This section applies zoning to the various towns and villages in the Transkei, zoning for occupation by the Bantu. When once zoned the area concerned could eventually by proclamation be brought within the jurisdition of the Transkeian Government. When we amended that Constitution at the beginning of this year, we exempted Port St. Johns and Matatiele from the operation of section 60. I should like to know from the Minister whether he consulted the Transkeian Government before introducing that amendment? The hon. the Minister says “yes”. Well, then I cannot understand—perhaps the hon. the Minister can explain it—why Chief Kaizer Matanzima, after having agreed to that amendment, can now ask for Port St. Johns and Matatiele to be included in the Transkei. In any event, that is an indication of what is happening, and as we get nearer to the coming election so we will get more and more demands of this nature from the Chief Minister.

We shall also hear more and more about influx control. What is the main reason for the hostility to the Government’s policy in the Transkei? Undoubtedly it is on account of the labour policy of this Government. We in the United Party support influx control—as a matter of fact, we introduced it originally. So, we support it. I am sure we would get a greater measure of support from the Bantu themselves for influx control were it not for the way in which this was being applied. We could get a greater measure of support from them especially from those permanently resident in urban areas and who want to see their jobs protected against the consequences of unrestricted influx. What in the main is the objection the Bantu have against influx control and to the Government’s policy as applied to urban areas? In the first place, naturally it is that they cannot come in as they like. And I agree that they should not be allowed to stream in as they like. I say that for obvious reasons. But what they cannot understand is the application of the Government’s policy within the urban areas. There is, for instance, the way in which they are being endorsed out. These people are not criminals who came to the cities only with the object of coming to commit offences. They are South African citizens who want to make a living here.

They all want that and that is why they all want to stream in.

That is what I have said. These people are law abiding people, only wanting to earn a living to support themselves and their families. But even widows are being endorsed out. Section 10 does not give widows any protection any more in terms of Government policy. There are the young men who are also forced to go back to the reserves. There is the denial of family life. One need only read the debates of the Transkeian Assembly to see how much score they place on family life. And that is quite understandable beause they are not different from anyone else. So, they cannot understand why those who live in urban areas permanently cannot be allowed to enjoy family life. Let me give hon. members one instance of the unreasonable way in which this policy is being applied. I brought this particular case to the notice of the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education and he received me very sympathetically. He promised to have the matter investigated straight away. This is the case of an Anglican person who was transferred by his church from Soweto to Klerksdorp. While in Soweto he lived with his wife but he was not allowed to take his wife with him to Klerksdorp. He was told that his wife cannot accompany him there and thus he is denied family life. Of course, there may be some special reason for this action. I do not know. However, I did the best I could and presented all the facts to the hon. the Deputy Minister but up to now I have not had any reply yet although I discussed it with him in March. But I am raising it here only for the purpose of demonstrating the sort of thing which is exasperating the Bantu.

That happens in thousands of cases. That is the law.

The hon. member can make a speech and bring her own cases. I am only relating the facts of a particular case. Why can I not do that? After all, the hon. member can quote all her cases if she wants to. Sir, there are a multitude of laws which the Bantu cannot possibly understand. As a matter of fact, there are only a handful of people in this country who can understand all these laws. I doubt whether there is one member of Parliament who understands all the laws applying to the Bantu.

Including hon. Ministers.

Yes, including the Ministers. Neither do I think the officials understand all these laws they have to apply. And I do not blame them beause it is impossible to know all the laws. What happened in the case of Evaton is proof that the department itself does not know the laws it has to apply. There the department thought it was acting legally but the Supreme Court found they were not. Well, if that is the position with the officials of the department, how can these poor Bantu be expected to know all the laws? It is impossible for them to know all the laws. And these Bantu who are being endorsed out do not know which laws apply to them and how.

Do you know all the laws which apply to you?

No, I do not. But the more I thank heaven that I am not an African. What is more, these laws are not always sympathetically applied. Some of them are being applied very harshly. It is no use hon. members opposite trying to deny this. There is the question of graft. You only have to talk to the Bantu to find out what they have to say about the graft that does go on in order for them to get a permit, not only from white officials but also from black officials. This is another thing they cannot understand and which annoys them. There are these illegal endorsements out, as the courts have in fact found. And we must remember that it is only those who got some assistance that could go to court to have their cases rectified. These are irritations which they resent and which lead to hostility. Let me quote another instance of where these people cannot understand what is happening to them. Take the question of the aged. What has happened to the old people who have been endorsed out to the Transkei? There is nowhere for them to go there. I have made inquiries from the department because I have had oomplaints. The old people say that they have been endorsed out but where must they go? They cannot get land in the Transkei. They are expected to go and stay with their relatives, but often they do not have relatives there. They want to know from me where they can go. I have approached the department and they said that normally you can buy kraal sites near Umtata, because it is a surveyed area. But there is no land available, and they cannot afford to buy land in the zoned areas in Umtata and the villages. I want to know what the Government proposes to do for the old people who find themselves endorsed out of the urban areas, once they are no longer protected by the law.

There is undoubtedly dissatisfaction with the conditions in the Transkei, and the proof of that is the reluctance of the Africans living outside the Transkei to register as voters in the Transkei. Their reluctance was due to their fear that if they registered they might be sent back to the Transkei, because it proved that they were Transkeian citizens. The Minister himself had to intervene and he gave the assurance that if they registered they would be more acceptable in the urban areas than if they did not register. The Minister was hoping to reassure them, but it is not very reassuring to the other Bantu who could not register as voters anywhere to find that the Transkeians who are on their way to independence were going to get preference in the urban areas. If there was no necessity for the Bantu to come out and work, there might be some justification for the Government’s attitude in regard to their employment in the urban areas. But they have to come out simply because there is no work for them in the Transkei, or in the other Bantu areas for that matter.

Now, what does the Government do to meet the problem? Its answer is to establish border industries. Now we are not opposed to decentralization of industry, but what we do oppose is the contention that border industries will be the answer and that will give employment to the Bantu living in the reserves. I ask the Minister or any of his Deputies to-tell me of what use border industries have been to the Transkei. I ask them to name me one. We have a report here from the permanent committee for the location of industry and the development of border areas. This report is for the period ending 31st December, 1967. Look through this report, Sir. What do you find about the Transkei in this report? We find that on page 10 they talk about growth points in the border areas. They say—

And then they mention East London, King William’s Town, Queenstown and Kokstad. Kokstad is the only one mentioned in connection with the Transkei. I ask the Minister what is being done in Kokstad? What industry has been established in Kokstad for the Natives of the Transkei? As regards the Ciskei, we are told so often that we must take the Transkei and the Ciskei together. I am sorry the hon. member for Queenstown is not here. He suggested the other night that the hon. member for Yeoville had misled the House by saying that he and I travelled through the Transkei and that we could not find a border industry. I challenge that hon. member to name any border industry for the Transkei. Then dealing with the Ciskei area, this report says—

And then they mention the high electricity charges, the heavy burden of basic facilities, etc. Then they go on to say that the 10 per cent railway rebate to the Ciskei is not of much assistance to industrialists in enabling them to compete in the main market. Furthermore, although they are often able to compete as the result of express delivery, the 25 per cent surcharge on the express goods service of the Railways virtually keeps them from the market. So even this 10 per cent we hear so much about which is intended to encourage industries in the Transkei and the Ciskei, according to this committee, is of no use.

I say the Transkei is the test. If the Transkei fails, the whole policy will fail. The other reserves have their eyes on the Transkei to see what is happening there. Either it works or it does not, and what has been achieved there? A lot of money has been spent there. As a resident of the Transkei I am glad to see money being spent there. Coins are made round so that they can roll and they are rolling in the Transkei and we welcome it, but what is the money being spent on? On buildings in Umtata and other industries which really are negligible and which give no work at all. It is no use quoting figures to show that so much employment is being given in the meat factory and the decortization plant for New Zealand hemp. What I go by is by what I see and hear there, and in the Transkei I see standing outside the recruiting offices hundreds of Africans all looking for employment, desperate for employment. I get reports from residents in the area and from traders of jobseekers, educated youths and men, coming to them daily looking for jobs. The residents of the Transkei are becoming very worried. They ask me what is going to happen to these people because there is no employment for them there. The Government or somebody else must do something to find employment for them, because they roam around looking for jobs and at night they become criminals. Their families cannot help them. Normally they grow a portion of their own food, but this year we are having a drought, probably the worst drought in history, and that accentuates the problem. They have to buy their food now. The Transkei Government is certainly going to start some relief work in order to give them the wherewithal to buy their food, but I think it is a very sad reflection on our system that in an area declared as a drought-stricken area, assistance is given to transport fodder for animals, but no assistance is given to provide food for humans. They cannot even buy the mealies they need.

Thousands of bags of mealies have been imported, and they have to buy them. The traders have to carry them. They cannot even buy mealies at the export rate; they have to pay the full price. Charity starts at home.

Basutoland once found itself in a similar plight and the Government then, under the late Dr. Verwoerd, made a very generous donation to them of grain. I say the Government must do something for the Africans now, not necessarily giving them mealies for nothing, but it must certainly help to bring the price of mealies down by helping with the freight charges and in other ways. I went through the Transkei last week. It looks like a desert. There is no grazing and the water is giving out. The caittle are thin and will die in their thousands when the cold weather sets in. There is a meat factory there which I hope will take the scrub stuff. It is not taking the scrub stuff at the moment, but I hope the Government through the Xhosa Development Corporation will try to get this meat factory, the deboning factory, to take up that scrub stuff, because the economic loss to the Bantu living in that area is going to be terrific. The Deputy Minister of Bantu Development was in the one area just recently and he saw what conditions were like there, and I think he will confirm that the cattle are going to die there in their thousands.

Not only in that area, but also in the white areas.

Yes, but the Whites can get assistance. The Bantu have no Land Bank to help them. They cannot buy fodder for their stock. They do not get cheaper rail rates.

Now, in so far as the Whites are concerned, we saw a statement recently from the Commissioner-General advocating the zoning of all the villages and towns in the Transkei as black. Zoning committees will be appointed. How is that going to help the Whites living in the Transkei? >It is no good zoning all the towns and villages black unless the Government undertakes at the same time to buy the property of anybody who wishes to sell. Zoning them black does not give these people a market, because the Bantu cannot buy. I have stressed before that when it zones, the Government must offer to buy. What happens now? You find that Whites living in zoned areas are certainly better off than those living in unzoned areas, because they can at least offer their property to the Government and then the adjustment committee will decide what to do. According to the White Paper, the adjustment committee will act in the same way as it does in regard to trading stations and it gives consideration to the urgent cases first. But I want to give an example—and this is not a singular case—of a young man who owns an hotel in quite a big town, not in Umtata. His hotel is zoned black. He was negotiating for the sale of this hotel to a firm in Johannesburg when the zoning proclamation was published. Those people got in touch with me at once and asked what the position would be if they bought the hotel; could they sell to whom they liked, and I said: “No, not in terms of the zoning proclamation; you have to get the permission of the Minister if you want to sell it to a white person.” Then they said they were not interested any more. This young man then offered it to the Government, but what was the reply of the adjustment committee? They said he was not an urgent case; he was still a young man.

Sir, must all these people wait now until they are so sick that they can no longer work, or so old that they can no longer work? Why must those young people be forced to stay there-They have no other market; they cannot sell to anyone else. It is quite wrong. That young man wants to establish himself elsewhere, and in terms of the Government policy of issuing liquor licences to Bantu a Bantu licensee has now opened, up alongside him. He cannot sell for on-consumption but the Bantu can. I say it is quite wrong, and the Government must reconsider the whole position of the Whites in the zoned areas. This policy of the Government has the effect of forcing integration on the people, and there are complaints: There are complaints in Um-tata. It is no good the Deputy Minister shaking his head. He does not know. Has he been in Um.tata? There are complaints; there is now friction between the people. The ¡Bantu are buying and moving in. They do not have the same ideas and ideals as the white people living alongside them, and they do not all have the same hygienic practices, so friction is growing. It is quite wrong to force these people to live under such conditions. [Time expired.]

At the outset I want to point out that the hon. member for Transkei asked for half an hour to make a speech and that under this Vote he paid attention exclusively to the Transkei.

That is untrue. Did you not listen?

A large part of this Vote deals with the Bantu in general in the whole of South Africa, but the hon. member spent three quarters of his time on a subject which has actually been assigned to the Government of the Transkei, namely labour. In terms of the Transkei Constitution Bantu labour was assigned to the legislative body of the Transkei, and actually it does not belong here; it belongs there and should be discussed there, and that body is the mouthpiece in regard to that matter with the Minister here in South Africa, and not the hon. member for Transkei. The hon. member for Transkei represents the Whites in that area, and now he seizes upon matters which have been assigned to the Transkeian Government, but this is something of which we should not take any notice. If his purpose is to prompt those people in connection with that subject, then it is a different matter; then he is making that specific matter a political one by prompting the voters of the Transkei who vote for the Transkeian Legislative Assembly and putting certain words into their mouths. [Interjections.] An amount is being appropriated here for them to spend according to their Estimates, but their Estimates are not relevant here now. All that is relevant here, is the amount which has been appropriated for them, whether it is good or bad. They are the ones to spend that amount.

Mr. Chairman, I want to come to the question of labour now and I want to say a few words about it. The hon. member complained that there was serious dissatisfaction in the Transkei because not enough work could be found for work seekers in the white homelands. I want to tell him now what my personal experience in this respect has been, because I happen to be concerned with farm labour in the Republic.

Sir, what happens when requisitions come through our offices for farm labour in the Republic, and they are sent through to these specific offices in the Transkei where queues of Bantu are waiting for work? If they are told that work for 100 people is being offered, they want to know what kind of work it is, and as soon as they hear that it is farm labour, they turn their backs on it; they are not interested in it. I can mention a number of cases in which requisitions were sent from the sugar area of Northern Natal for labourers from the Transkei. As soon as they hear that they will have to cut sugar-cane they are no longer interested. This is also largely the case as regards the mining industry, with which I happen to deal as well. When recruiting is done for the mines, they are fussy; they do not want to accept that kind of work. But this is not the actual point I want to make; the point I want to make is that the Transkeian Bantu want to have their cake and eat it too. They do not want us to return the Bantu, who are virtually entrenched in the white homeland in terms of section 10, to the Transkei.

In other words, in applying influx control we must see how much labour we already have here in Cape Town, for example, or in Somerset East, or in Uitenhage, before we can allow the addition of more; after all, this is the whole idea of influx control. But if those Bantu who are entrenched here in terms of section 10, want to return to their homelands and if we can then recruit them there again to come to work here, it will bring great relief. We know that many of the section 10 Bantu, who were bom here, are nothing but tsotsis and loafers, but we must take those numbers into account. They are entitled to ask for work here, and because they are entitled to that, we cannot allow an influx of more Bantu. But if they would all return to their own homelands and could then be recruited there, the keen ones would he employed here and then we would not be saddled with the large number of unwilling workers who are entrenched in the white homeland in terms of section 10. If the Transkeian Government would ask all their citizens who are entrenched here in terms of section 10, to return to their homelands, we would obtain employment here for those who are willing to come to work here, without having to take into account the large number of Bantu who are already here and who may be possible work seekers in the white homeland.

I just want to point out that on 1st April a proclamation was issued in connection with labour bureaux at tribal authorities. The Transkei was excluded from this proclamation, but I want to point out that this proclamation can also be accepted by the Transkei if they want to do so, and then we shall be able to recruit amongst them in the same way. I should like to explain how this matter works. Under that proclamation a tribal labour bureau has been established at each tribal authority. That tribal labour bureu receives requisitions from the white homeland for the recruitment of labour. This is now being handled by the Bantu authority itself. The authority itself now recruits Bantu in its own area amongst the members of its tribe. Under that requisition the Bantu then come to work here for a year. This is virtually the same pattern as the one we have in the case of Malawi, according to which the Bantu leave their area to come to work here for a certain period, which in the case of Malawi is a maximum of two years or 18 months, while under this regulation it is one year. Why this cannot apply in the Transkei as well, I do not know. But labour is a matter which was assigned to them under their Constitution, and they can fall in with this scheme if they want to do so.

The hon. member for Transkei also referred to the drought prevailing there. I want to tell him that this is not the only part of our Bantu areas which has been hit by this disaster. There are many other Bantu areas which have been hit by drought, but again I have to point out to him that the farming industry, or Lands, is also a matter which has been assigned to the Transkeian Government, and if the Transkeian Government needs help, it must submit representations to this Government. This is what Lesotho did, for example. It is not necessary for the hon. member for Transkei to come and pose here as, the mouthpiece of that Government to advocate these things here.

The hon. member also referred to border industries. Sir, border industries had to be established first at growth points where it would be easiest to set the economy in motion. The border industries of the Transkei do not have the necessary raw materials; there are not sufficient electricity and water on the Transkeian borders. Therefore it would not be easy to obtain a good growth point there immediately. But now that the whole idea of border areas has proved to be a success at places such as Rosslyn, Zwelitsha and Pietersburg, not even to mention Hammarsdale and Umlazi, and now that these growth points can develop further under their own steam, the permanent committee can begin to concentrate on other places. But the hon. member must bear in mind that places must be selected which offer attractions to the industrialist. The industrialist will not establish his industry at such a place simply because it is situated on the Transkeian border; there have to be other things which attract him there. It is not the Government which starts these industries; the Government merely provides the inducements, and those inducements are all there. For example, industrialists can go to Kokstad if they think that there are enough inducements to make it possible to establish a profitable industry there. The Government is not the body which places the industrialist there. The establishment of industries depends on white capitalists in and around the Transkei, represented here by the hon. member for Transkei. He must encourage them to establish their industries there and not in Durban or at any other place. [Time expired.]

The hon. member who has just sat down dealt in the main with the removal of Bantu from the white areas and that is the topic with which I wish to deal. I want to deal with that particular member specially since he has set himself up as an authority on this particular subject.

What are you?

I would like to show that one can very well discount anything which that hon. member has to say on this subject. Just a few days ago he addressed a meeting here in Cape Town, and he gave us a very lengthy hand-out of his speech. When I received this, I thought that perhaps the hon. member had been addressing a large meeting of some importance; so I was surprised to discover that there were no more than 30 odd people at this meeting. But we were given this hand-out as though he had been addressing a crowd of many hundreds. In this particular speech he dealt with Limehill in particular, and that is the matter I want to take up with that hon. member. He started off by stating that at Limehill an anti-Nat campaign had been launched. Sir, I have a copy of the hon. member’s speech here. If by “anti-Nat” he meant anti-heartlessness, then I say: “More power to those people who condemned the Limehill move.” The hon. member went to Limehill some weeks after the move, and I would like to say to him that I too have been to Limehiill. The account which he gave of the position at Limehill in his speech here in Cape Town was so full of inaccuracies as to be discredited entirely. First of all, he made the statement that nobody was forced to move at Limehill, and the hon. the Minister, in replying to a question of mine earlier this Session, made the same statement, i.e. that everybody in Limehill had moved voluntarily. Well, I think that the construction which hon. members on that side put on words is different from the construction we place on them. Sir, the sort of thing that happened at Limehill was this: Officials of the Department would say to the Bantu: “You are going to move on such and such a date. If you do not move on such and such a date you will be trespassing or squatting illegally.” The people at Limehill were threatened with 90 days or 180 days …

That is not true.

They were told that if they did not move they would find themselves in gaol. This is the sort of “voluntary” move that hon. members on that side talk about.

That is not true.

That is a lie.

Sir, everything I say here is perfectly correct.

What proof have you got?

Many of these Bantu were moved from mission stations.

Order! Which hon. member said: “That is a lie?”

I did.

The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw.

Sir, 300 years of missionary work has been undone at Limehill and hon. members sit there quite complacent, particularly the hon. member for Heilbron who made the sort of speech which he made here this afternoon and last week here in Cape Town. Sir, if these moves were so voluntary, why has the hon. member for Heilbron not admitted that at this very moment there are six affidavits in the Minister’s Department from Bantu protesting against the move? Sir, we heard nothing of that. The hon. member for Heilbron said that before the move took place these black spots were overcrowded. Sir, that is not so. That is nowhere near the actual position. He also went on to state that water was scarce in these various black spots and that these Bantu had to buy their water from white neighbouring farms. Sir, there is no white farmer in the area who is not prepared to say that he never at any stage sold water to Bantu. When the hon member states, as he did last week, that not only did white farmers sell water to the Bantu when there was a shortage of water but that a United Party Senator had sold water to the Bantu …

I never said so and you know that that is not true either.

Order! The hon. member is not allowed to say that the hon. member knows that what he is saying is untrue. He may say he ought to know that it is not true.

On a point of explanation, Sir, I used those words outside this House …

Order! The hon. member must withdraw the allegation that the hon. member knows that what he says is untrue.

Hon. MEMBERS: Withdraw!

Order! The hon. member must withdraw those words.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw, but I still say it is untrue.

That is something different. The hon. member may continue.

One can say he is almost lying.

I prefer to let the people of South Africa judge what really happened at Limehill rather than to accept what the hon. member says happened there. I say the hon. member could not have got out of his car and looked around when he went to Limehill and the black spots from which these Bantu were moved. Contrary to what the hon. member said, on the first day at Limehill 600 people lived in tents. There was only one drinking point. The first latrine at Limehill was built three days after the Bantu had moved in. This is the sort of thing we have to put up with from hon. members on that side. I admit that conditions here have improved tremendously and I believe future moves of this nature will not be a repetition of what happened at Limehill, but the reason for that will not be anything that hon. member and that side of the House have done but because the churches, and the various bodies concerned pricked the conscience of people in South Africa as to what was taking place at Limehill. To them we owe a debt of gratitude, not to people like the hon. member for Heilbron.

But the point about the whole matter is that it is all so futile. In the last 20 years the Government have moved 75,000 Bantu from black spots in South Africa, but during the same period over one million Bantu have moved into the towns and cities of South Africa. How futile it is to take people from their homes where they are perfectly satisfied and move them to other places. It must be clearly understood that the people who objected to what was happening at Limehill did not object to the principle of the move but to the conditions which existed while the removal was taking place. Let me show how futile this removal is. The hon. the Minister of Transport is at this moment building a compound in the Durban docks to house 6,000 Bantu, and that is double the number that were there five years ago. But the Government goes into the back of beyond and removes a handful of Bantu, causing great disruption, and then claim their policies are succeeding.

The people they are moving in this particular instance have been moved 25 miles from their nearest place of employment. I should like the hon. the Minister to reply to a few questions I wish to put to him in regard to this move at Limehill. What bus fares do the people who have been moved have to pay to get to their nearest point of employment? My information is they have to pay 50c on the bus, and I should like to know how the ordinary Bantu can afford to pay such fares. Will extra land be given for the young people in Limehill or will they have to share with their parents the plots which have been allocated to their parents? [Interjections.] It would be easier to talk about these experiments with human beings which the Government are conducting if hon. members on my left were to keep quiet. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Port Natal will pardon me if I do not follow up what he said. All he did was to show us that he was very annoyed with the hon. member for Heilbron, and if I also annoy him, he might break down; it seems to me as if he was near to breaking down already. About the previous two Opposition speakers, I just want to say this. One of them is angry with an hon. member on this side of the House. The other asked for the privilege of the half-hour and I expected him to say a good deal about Bantu development and administration, but he came forward with a lot of personal complaints from his constituency, complaints which he, according to what the hon. member who is sitting in front of me also says, should not have brought up here. All of us probably have various complaints from our constituencies; after all, that is nothing out of the ordinary. The hon. member spoke about political disputes in the Transkei. We have such disputes in this House as well. Here we have the United Party and the Progressive Party, and that is not strange either. After all, this is not criticism of the Government’s policy or its implementation. I am astonished that the hon. member did not once more put forward their old story about White capital and enterprise. I recently had the privilege of visiting the proposed homelands in South West Africa together with other hon. members, and I once again came to the conclusion that the Government’s policy was the best policy. The United Party speaks of the development of the homelands, and they are too concerned about the development of the homelands themselves, and that is why they sometimes tell these wild stories about white capital. We on this side realize that in the first place we must develop the Bantu within the homelands and that the Bantu themselves will then be able to develop their homelands further. We will then have no stories about labour problems in those homelands, stories which the Opposition are so keen to spread. This party is busy solving all those matters. I think one of the greatest achievements of the National Party is in fact the way in which it has succeeded in causing these eight Bantu nations to develop. We must remember that less than 50 years ago they consisted of warriors, agriculturists and pastoralists. This party has succeeded in causing those people to develop and to adapt themselves to their own scientific, industrial, agricultural and political pattern. [Interjections.] I will come to that presently. The hon. member opposite has difficulty in understanding things. The most remarkable of all is this. The eight ethnic groups have already developed so far without losing their individual dignity. They have retained their language and their valuable, age old traditional customs. The Transkei has been mentioned here. Surely it is obvious that there must be different political parties. But just consider what peaceful constitutional development there has been in respect of the Transkei. The Transkei to-day enjoys almost complete self-government. You will agree with me, Sir, that the way in which the National Party is developing the Bantu homelands is the right one. It is being done from the bottom and not from the top. We must remember that there are 260 separate Bantu areas in the Republic, which together comprise 17 million morgen or 57,000 square miles. In South West Africa there are 22 such areas, with a surface area of about 79,000 square miles or 24 million morgen. Some of these areas have a greater economic potential than others, but without exception they are all under-developed areas. The homelands are actually poor. The gross geographic product of the Republic’s homelands in the year 1959-’6O was estimated at only R105 million, which is only 2.3 per cent of the total gross domestic product of all the sectors in the Republic. Now you can see how far that development has progressed and how a variety of economic activities has to be built up. The development of any nation must begin in the agricultural field. In the Transkei 85 per cent of the Bantu practise agriculture or forestry. The method which the National Party is applying for the development of these homelands is the best. It is firstly the development of agriculture and secondly the development of commerce and industry. It is being done by the Bantu themselves or through cooperatives. In the third place, in order to develop those people it is necessary to train them in the academic and technical fields. The fourth and least important aspect—and this is the only point which the hon. member for Transkei discussed—is the establishment of border industries to provide those people with additional employment opportunities. Let us consider for a moment what the Government has done in this connection during the past few years. On the five-year plan which ended in 1961 an amount of R114 million was spent. The next five-year plan, which ended in 1966, cost the State R491 million, which means that the amount increased more than four-fold. Even then we still get criticism from hon. members on that side of the House. [Interjections.]

That hon. member will not remember it now, but if he would read it up, the question of how the value of land has been developed will also prove of value to him. In the field of agriculture, 50 per cent of the available agricultural land has already been cultivated. Thirty-four per cent of the land which was destroyed by wasteful exploitation, has already been reclaimed and cultivated. In the homelands there are 687,000 acres which are suitable for forestry, and 130,000 acres have already been afforested. The planned afforestation is 10,000 acres per year. Sixty thousand acres have been set aside for the cultivation of hard fibres and 17,000 acres have already been cultivated. There are 44,000 acres which are suitable for the cultivation of sugar cane and half of that, namely 23,000 acres, is under cultivation, ensuring 3,500 farmers of a livelihood. By the end of 1965 22,500 morgen of land were under irrigation. These are the facts in connection with agriculture, but we need only look at what has been done in the past few years in order to develop and plan agriculture to this extent. In order to reestablish these agricultural people, 37 townships with 38,600 houses were erected during the first five-year plan. For the next five-year plan, which ends in 1971, 61 townships with 93,480 houses are being planned. This is being done to build up this infrastructure to the point from where those people can develop themselves in the industrial field. Up to 1965 4,707 dams were built for the development of agriculture, 7,400 boreholes, 619 bridges, and more than 25,000 miles of roads. In spite of this we find that the Bantu cannot help themselves as yet; for that reason we have already set to work along the same lines as proposed by the United Party, but on a sounder basis.

Order! The hon. member for North Rand must stop distributing newspapers.

Ninety mining concessions have already been granted for the purposes of this development. I should now like to say a few words about trade in this area. There are already 4,000 retail licences, and I want to emphasize that about 1,200 of them are still in the possession of Whites and Indians. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, this afternoon we listened once more to the lamentations of the hon. member for Transkei. But in all his lamentations the hon. member made no suggestion to assist in the execution of this task which rests upon the shoulders of the National Government, probably the greatest task in the world to-day. I do not believe that India had as great a task in separating the two groups of Indians, as we have to-day. Therefore I want to express my gratitude to-day to the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and his two Deputy Ministers, as well as his Department, which must accomplish this enormous task. The fulfilment of this task will become a reality in the future. But because it is going to become a reality, hon. members opposite are getting nervous. One hon. member warns against the cities being flooded by Bantu, while another hon. member asks what we are going to do with the Bantu in the homelands. He suggests that we are preventing them from working in the urban areas.

But I want to return to the hon. member for Transkei and answer him on the allegations which he made this afternoon to the effect that this Department was returning Bantu to the homelands unjustly. I want to issue a challenge to him. I want him to name me an example of a Bantu who has been unjustly returned from an urban area to a Bantu homeland. I address this challenge to the hon. member for Transkei. The Bantu who have been returned to the homelands are those who unlawfully slipped into the cities in their hundreds. [Interjections.] I think the hon. member for East London (City) knows absolutely nothing about influx. Perhaps he knows more about wool than about influx.

You know nothing about the Bantu.

I want to say, and let us be reasonable, that many Bantu enter the cities unlawfully; but as soon as those persons are traced, their cases are thoroughly investigaged, and every District Bantu Commissioner sees to it that those Bantu are returned to the homelands from which they came.

In addition, the hon. member referred to certain officials—I do not know whether they are White or Bantu public servants—who were transferred from one area to another without their wives being allowed to accompany them. I say that this is not true.

How can you say that?

It is not true. If such a Bantu woman qualifies and is the lawful wife of that official, then she is allowed to accompany him when he is transferred, even if it is on a temporary permit, until they are again transferred to the next place. But this allegation is not true. In other words, Mr. Chairman, statements are made in the House which cannot be proved. Only the unfavourable side of a matter is presented and it is untrue. I repeat, and I say this clearly: Show me the Bantu who was returned to the homeland unjustly, and who could have remained in an urban area lawfully. Let us take the Witwatersrand complex as an example. I am not going to speak on behalf of the Whites now. I am going to speak on behalf of the Bantu already living there. If influx control is not applied most strictly, what do hon. members think will happen to the Bantu who live in that area lawfully and who earn their bread and butter there every day? Let me say to those hon. members: It is the Bantu on the advisory councils who have often said to me that we should take a firm stand. They are also the ones who take the lead and who say that if a Bantu woman comes to a white area she should be lawfully married, and not even under the lobola system. This is so and we are doing that. But only the unfavourable side is presented. I want to ask the Opposition whether the gates of all the homelands should be thrown open so that the Bantu can stream to the cities at will. They must say yes or no. They are as quiet as a quiet morning here in Cape Town. Why do those hon. members not answer? The future must be planned for, but now that this Government is having success with its homelands …

Where are they succeeding?

Doubting Thomases like you will also see it in the future. I only hope that hon. members grow old enough to witness it. Success is being achieved in the planning of the homelands. Border industries are taking shape to-day— and we accept that the progress is slow—to offer the people a future in their homelands, but I want to go further and once again ask the hon. the Minister to see to it that the Bantu are taught that they also have a duty in this country, and that they should realize that they must work. The Bantu of Africa must be taught that the Whites cannot simply create a province or a country for them, but that they must create and develop it themselves. The Bantu must be taught that that is their land and that they must love it. They must be taught to develop away from the chieftainship system under which they have never had any say, under which they always had only their wives and their cattle and never owned any land. The Bantu must be taught to love the Transkei or Ovamboland or whichever country it is. I want to ask that large schools like those in the cities be erected in the Bantu homelands as well, and this is an earnest appeal which I am making now, so that the Bantu child can learn to love his fatherland and to realize that this is the country which he must develop for his descendants. There are thousands of aged Bantu in the cities whom I do not want to push back into the homelands to die there, but I want to make an appeal for those Bantu to be placed in old-age homes in the homelands so that they can spend their last days in the country of their forefathers. If one educates the youth to love their country and if the youth sees that the parents are prepared to die in their country, then we shall, while already having achieved much, also triumph in another matter, namely in cultivating a pride in his homeland in the Bantu. We shall have the Bantu realize that they also have a task to perform here on the southern tip of Africa.

I just want to make another earnest appeal to those hon. members. I want to ask them if they have ever paused and reflected upon these enormous tasks which have to be carried out for the benefit and protection of themselves and their descendants.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Stilfontein challenged us to produce one Bantu who has been removed from the white urban areas to the Transkei. I do not think that it is necessary to produce one. He has only to open his eyes and to go to the Transkei himself and see the Deputy Commissioner of Police and a few other officials who will show him not one, but hundreds of thousands of such people. That hon. member comes from the Transvaal. I want to ask him whether he does not know of the hundreds who are removed from the Transvaal in handcuffs and taken to the Transkei. He then went further and spoke about Bantu women and the marriage laws. Is he not aware of the cases decided by the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court where this Government and this Department have deliberately ignored the provisions of the law? In such cases they had repatriated wives who were entitled to stay in the urban areas—in terms of the decisions of the Supreme Court. How many of them get to the Supreme Court?

Nonsense.

I am not talking nonsense.

You are an agitator.

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister must withdraw that word.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw.

Mr. Chairman, so much nonsense has been spoken on that side of the House in the short while that this debate has been under way that it is impossible for us to answer all these matters raised by hon. members opposite. The hon. member for Heilbron, for instance, spoke about the hon. member for Transkei only representing the white people in this Parliament. Who does represent the Bantu people? Every one of us in this House represents the Bantu people. We represent every person in our constituencies. I should rather say that we on this side of the House take our responsibilities seriously. We are not like those hon. members on that side of the House. I must say that one bit of sense did come out of what was said here this afternoon. The hon. member for Heilbron has at last admitted, and it is on record in Hansard, that there are no border industries for the Transkei. This hon. member is a senior member of the other side, and he has admitted this afternoon in his speech that there is not one border industry on the borders of the Transkei.

I now want to leave the hon. member for Heilbron and ask the hon. the Minister what his policy is in regard to the employment of Bantu in Hammarsdale and in regard to the Bantu who will be housed in the Hammarsdale Bantu township. I have two examples I want to put to the hon. the Minister. One concerns a Bantu man who moved with his family to the Hammarsdale area in 1960. They have lived there as squatters since then. He was employed for some years in various factories in the Hammarsdale area and recently he got a new job with another enterprise. When he applied for registration the reply of the officials of the hon. the Minister’s Department was “It is regretted that he does not qualify for registration as a work seeker, and should return to Estcourt. If you want a worker, please contact this office and I will endeavour to find one.” This was a man who was qualified as an assistant to a blockman in a butcher shop. Persons with experience of this kind are few and far between. The Minister’s Department was unable to provide a trained Bantu for that job. This particular Bantu, who was trained, was not allowed to remain there because he belonged to another district. I want to ask whether this principle is to be applied in Hammarsdale and townships which are situated in the so-called homelands. Is this to be the case where industries are established on the borders of the homelands for the sake of the Bantu and their homelands? This all forms part of what we hope will ultimately be the Zulu homeland. This man is a Zulu, although his home district is Estcourt. What is the policy of the hon. the Minister in this regard? The other case concerns an ex-teacher who had been employed and live in the Umzimkulu area. There was no work there and she had moved to Hammarsdale. She too was refused registration when she tried to register in her job. She too was told that she did not belong there and that she must go home. Umzimkulu has no employment opportunities at all and Estcourt does not have sufficient opportunities for employment. I should like to know what the hon. the Minister’s policy in this regard is. Further in regard to this township I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he considers this township in the same light as the Umlazi township. They are both townships in the Bantu areas.

When we adjourned I was asking the hon. the Minister whether he could tell me whether the same conditions of occupation at Hammarsdale would apply as apply in Umlazi, ad I was dealing particularly with the township of Hammarsdale. We find from a social survey conducted by the University of Natal in 1957-’58 that in the Hammarsdale area there were at that time 12,500 Bantu. Last year, in reply to a question, the Minister told me that there iwere 45,000 Bantu at Hammarsdale, but as I have explained to him, certain people are being removed from that area. But I find from reports, and from the plans I have of the Hammarsdale Bantu township, that the Minister’s Department is planning for a township of 16,000 houses, which, at an average of six per family unit makes a total population of 100,000 persons there. I want to ask the Minister, if it is his policy to remove the people from outside the Camperdown district, where is he going to get 100,000 people to occupy that township?

I want to go further and say this. At the time when Hammarsdale was declared a border industrial area, the I.D.C. set out to create 5,000 job opportunities, for Bantu. They have done so; they have created those 5,000 job opportunities, but a township of 100,000 people means that between 30,000 and 40,000 people require employment. What is going to happen; where are they going to get that employment? We find from the report of the permanent committee that Hammarsdale is now fully developed and provision is only being made for the normal expansion requirements of the established undertakings. Now, this is the point. I want to warn the hon. the Minister and ask him please to take cognizance of the fact that he is creating a flash point at Hammarsdale; he is creating the position there where you are going to have between 30,000 and 40,000 people seeking emploment and only between 5,000 and 6,000 employment opportunities are created. This is in line with statements by the Minister’s colleague, the Minister of Planning, and others, that the development of Hammarsdale is complete. The hon. member for Heilbron said earlier that this industrial township should now generate its own development. But I want to ask the hon. the Minister what his ideas on this subject are, and is he prepared to use his influence with his colleagues to see that employment opportunities are created for the additional 25,000 to 30,000, people who will require employment? [Time expired.]

By way of introduction I just want to return to the speech made by the hon. member for Port Natal. The hon. member made a very petty attack on a senior member of this House this afternoon, and he made certain statements here which I can prove to this House are not true. The hon. member referred to a speech made by the hon. member for Heilbron, before a very responsible audience, namely the Institute of Citizenship, in the Cathedral Hall, Queen Victoria Street, Cape Town, on 30th May, and the hon. member for Heilbron also made his speech available to hon. members opposite. In this spech, in which he gave a very detailed exposition of the conditions upon which removal from these areas takes place, he tabulated the conditions very clearly, and I should just like to put a few of them on record.

Firstly, the hon. member for Heilbron stated that before these Bantu were removed, provision was made for sufficient water for human and animal consumption. He explained that compensation was paid, plus an amount of 20 per cent over and above this amount for any inconvenience suffered, and also that these persons were entitled to demolish their old buildings and to take the improvements with them; in addition every family was supplied with a tent or a prefabricated house, completely free of charge, which is erected for him on the new premises; they were provided with three days’ rations and free transport. The Bantu Trust even provided them with material to build their new houses on the new premises; schools were built on the new premises according to the standards of the Department of Bantu Education, and as he put it, “these school buildings are always of much better standard than the old ones”. Furthermore, sufficient sanitary facilities were provided and, most important of all, before these removals took place, these Bantu were consulted by the department and their permission and co-operation were obtained, as was done in this case as well. In this case the Bantu of Limehill said that they wanted to be removed. And if the hon. member refers to six affidavits which were allegedly submitted to the hon. the Minister, I just want to say to him that this Government cannot always heed only the dissatisfaction of the minority when a major undertaking has to be carried out.

But I want to return to the accusation made by the hon. member when the hon. member for Heilbron called him a liar and the Chairman compelled the hon. member for Heilbron to withdraw it. I should like to point out that when the hon. member for Port Natal made that assertion he was really moving along the outskirts of the truth. What did he say? He said—

He was referring to this speech—

Surely he knew then that he had not found that in this speech, and I challenge the hon. member to show me where that is stated in this speech and I have read the whole of it. From 6.30 p.m. to 8 o’clock I read through the entire speech of the hon. member for Heilbron, and I challenge the hon. member, and if he has any decency in him, he will get up and admit that he accused the hon. member for Heilbron falsely. [Interjections.] But I do not consider it worth while to waste any more time on the hon. member for Port Natal.

I should like to return to another subject. I should like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that in Potchefstroom, in my constituency, the office complex of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner is in a particularly poor condition. I realize the difficulty which the department has in connection with the replacement of buildings. I also realize that building cannot simply be replaced. I hope that the buildings in Potchefstroom are already on the priority list, and I should like to hear from the Minister whether that is the case. I shall particularly appreciate it if the hon. the Minister can give an indication of what the planning is in connection with the erection of a new building complex for the Bantu Affairs Commissioner in Potchefstroom.

Then I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to have an investigation made as regards the site of the new premises which may be provided in the future. My information is that the premises being made available for the purpose are situated in Van Riebeck Street, directly behind the police station and the magistrate’s offices. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to consider establishing this building complex in the industrial area near to the Bantu township and more or less directly opposite the municipal offices. I think that this is a very convenient place and on occasion I also took the Deputy Minister of Bantu Development on a tour through the area, and I feel myself at liberty to say that he agreed with me as far as the site is concerned.

But there are other and more important matters which I want to discuss this evening. I am of the opinion that a particular responsibility rests on each member of this House of Assembly to consult with the manager of nonwhite affairs and the town council in his constituency and to join with them in giving serious consideration to matters concerning the application of our Bantu policy and all matters concerning this department. I think it is time that we planned in conjunction with these local authorities, which are actually the most important factor in the application of our policy, to induce and to assist the Bantu to think about their own problems. We must help the (Bantu in this way, so that they can also take the lead among their own people. I should like to mention two examples of how this situation can yield successful results in practice.

We in Potchefstroom are fortunate to have as manager of non-white affairs Dr. P. J. Rieckert, who recently obtained his doctorate with a thesis about the law of marriage of a tribe in the Tswana homeland. This person is really an expert, and we are also fortunate in having on the management committee there persons such as Professor J. H. Grobler and Professor H. L. Swanepoel, who have made a study of these matters for many years, and whose object it is to assist the Government in the application of its policy. In addition we have Professor J. H. Coetzee, who is an expert in this field and who can give the Bantu in this area and in the Tswana area guidance in their problems, and who1 is in fact consulted by the Bantu in respect of their constitutional position and problems. Years of consultation and discussion with these Bantu leaders have in fact had the result that—and hon. members opposite will not like this at all—in the last election of the Bantu Urban Advisory Committee, the Bantu, under the leadership of a person by the name of Gabriel Moraladi, who is the chairman of this committee, and his supporters, conducted the election purely on the policy of the Government in the Bantu township there. Their election manifesto gave full support to the apartheid policy, and they drew 89 per cent of all the votes. That is the Bantu of this Tswana area. ¡[Interjections.] These Bantu, who have already learnt to think for themselves about their own problems, adopted the following resolutions as far back as August, 1966, and there was not a single white man present when it was adopted.

Firstly, they adopted a resolution about the housing of Bantu on a family basis in the Tswana homeland area. Therein they declared, inter alia, that since the homelands had to be strengthened, it was felt that no additional family housing should be erected in that Bantu township and in all Bantu residential areas in urban areas, but that it should be erected in the homelands concerned and that the members of the family who work or who want to come and work in Potchefstroom, should be housed in well-equipped hostels in the Bantu township there. In addition, they adopted a resolution about making deduction from wages of migratory labourers and paying these deductions to members of families in the homelands. Unfortunately I cannot elaborate on that, because I do not have time. They also adopted a resolution about the housing of the aged in the homelands, and in addition they adopted a very important resolution in connection with the establishment of secondary and technical schools in homelands with hostels which should be erected there, and not in the Bantu residential areas. This is what happens when the Bantu are taught by the Whites to think for themselves about their problems. Another great advantage inherent in this, and another matter which must be given very serious attention by our town councils and municipalities, is the provision of greater financial assistance in the homelands in which they have the greatest interest. [Time expired.]

I want to come back for a moment to the speech of the hon. member for Heilbron this afternoon. I must admit that I was amazed to hear what the hon. member had to say. He was dealing with the speech of the hon. member for Transkei, and said that the hon. member had no right to claim that he was representing the Bantu in the Transkei because he was here to represent the white people of the Transkei. Sir, this is a most extraordinary statement for a man, who claims to be a responsible member of this House, to make. I have declared myself before to-day; I have said that I represent everybody in my constituency, whether he is a Bantu, an Indian, a Coloured man or a white man.

But he is not in the Transkei.

Any Bantu who has a complaint that he thinks I can assist him with can come to me, and I will listen to him as I would to anybody else who comes to me with difficulties in regard to which I can help him. I want to take the matter further. [Interjections.] I wonder whether the hon. member for Heilbron would listen to me for a moment. I am addressing my remarks through the Chairman to the hon. member for Heilbron. I want to ask the hon. member for Heilbron, or any hon. member opposite, whether they take up the position as Members of the Nationalist Party that they as Members of Parliament do not represent any Natives who may come to them and who are living in their constituency, when they have a difficulty? I am asking this in all seriousness.

I do not represent Bantu; I represent white voters.

My door is always open to you on behalf of anyone.

Sir, the hon. the Deputy Minister says that his door is open to me. That is begging the question. He knows that I am not a Bantu, but it calls for a reply in kind from me and again I am going to resist the temptation. This is a serious matter.

I say that on behalf of any Bantu my door is always open to you.

That is fair enough.

On behalf of any Bantu?

Yes.

I am sorry, I misunderstood the hon. the Deputy Minister and I apologize. Here then is a clear statement from the Deputy Minister that through me or presumably through any other member his door is open to any Bantu. That is fair enough. What does the hon. member for Heilbron have to say about that? Is he going to repudiate the Deputy Minister? You see, Sir, this strikes very deep where Parliament is concerned. Whatever may be said by anyone for political motives or any other reason whatsoever, Parliament is still supreme in South Africa, and it deals with the destinies of all the people in South Africa, irrespective of their race or colour. We debate those matters and the Government brings matters before it dealing with the Bantu for debate. How are we to debate them if we do not discuss matters with the Bantu? Do we debate those matters in the abstract, in vacuo“? Do we not know what we are talking about when we discuss these matters? You see, Sir, the hon. member for Heilbron made this attack for purely political reasons. But I want to draw to his attention a statement made in this House by a former Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, Mr. de Wet Nel, who in this House once appealed to us on this side of the House to be careful in our speeches because, he said, you must bear in mind that the Bantu are great readers of Hansard. I see the present Minister nods his head with approval. May I draw the attention of the hon. member for Heilbron to that remark. His Hansard will be read by the Bantu throughout South Africa. What will they say when an hon. member, who is a senior member occupying a specially responsible position in regard to Bantu administration in this Parliament, makes a statement like that in regard to the representation of the Bantu in the Transkei by the hon. member for Transkei?

That horse won’t run.

I want to go further with the hon. member for Heilbron and deal with the speech which he made earlier on this Session, because it ties in with what he said here this afternoon. Dealing with this question of Bantu affairs, the hon. member for Heilbron said this (Hansard, col. 89)—

Wherever the white homeland may be—

What is wrong with that?

Then he went on—

There was the position. Then dealing with the Bantu who did not work in the white homeland, he said—

Sir, what an extraordinary question to ask? Surely it is a matter of common humanity to find employment for them before you send them to a place which they have probably never seen in their lives. What would be his attitude if white people were being removed by a coloured race? He went on to say—

Presumably in his homeland—

The hon. member repeated that this afternoon—

He looks upon himself as elderly.

He went on to say—

Sir, what a philosophy! The hon. member for Heilbron preaches this philosophy for the world to know. I wonder what the hon. the Minister thinks of that philosophy; I wonder if he really subscribes to it. According to the hon. member, children and elderly people, because they no longer have the protection of section 10, can be sent back to their homelands. The hon. member went for my friend, the hon. member for Transkei, in regard to the Bantu who are being sent back to the Transkei because they are being endorsed out from white areas. They are going back there again and they are starving at the present time, and the hon. member for Transkei made a plea for assistance to them. Sir, they are starving. I wonder if the hon. member realizes that. He throws scorn at this suggestion. Sir, why are those people starving? Because they cannot get out to work.

May I put a question to the hon. member?

My time is very limited. I want to ask the hon. the Minister how the labour bureaux, which are to be established in the tribal areas by the regional or territorial authorities, or whatever authority it may be, that will be controlling them, are going to mesh in with the requirements of commerce and industry in the white area where the Bantu at the present time are enjoying virtually the only employment that they can get? The hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Development virtually stated the other day at Middelburg in regard to farm labour: Once a farm labourer, a farm labourer for ever. He could not go back to a town. [Interjections.] I have a copy of this speech here. This is a free translation of his speech, and this is what he said—

The Bantu cannot leave his employer and look for other employment. Sir, here is a cardinal point and I want to know from the hon. the Minister whether that is so. Is a Bantu farm labourer a farm labourer for ever and aye? Cannot he change his employment and get employment in commerce and industry?

He can return to his homeland.

Before I come to the hon. member for South Coast and the hon. member for Transkei, permit me just to say something of lesser importance to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). Has the hon. member ever heard this little English verse?—

Why cannot the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) be like that wise old owl? I leave the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) at that.

I now come to the hon. member for South Coast. The hon. member made a terrible fuss here because the hon. member for Heilhron had allegedly said that the hon. member for Transkei did not represent the Bantu in the Transkei. But from the nature of the case he does not represent the Bantu there. If hon. members ask me who represents the Bantu there, then I say that the elected members and the chiefs of the Bantu represent them in the independent Parliament of the Transkei. The hon. member for Transkei represents the Whites, and if he will concentrate upon doing that, he will be a better M.P. for his constituency; he represents the Whites of the Transkei. The Bantu have their own Parliament in the Transkei, a Parliament which passes their own legislation and their own budget, etc. The hon. member for South Coast now wants to sow suspicion. Sir, I am still speaking to the hon. member for South Coast.

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister is asking for the hon. member’s attention.

If the hon. member for South Coast does not want to listen to me, it makes no difference to me. I am making a statement of policy here. The hon. member for South Coast objects to loafers in white areas not being allowed to remain there. That is what he objected to and what the hon. member for Heilbron said fitted in with the Government’s policy. If someone does not want to work here in white South Africa, why should he stay here? I am very sorry that the hon. member for South Coast does not know where the homeland of the Whites in South Africa is. Are we still at the stage where an hon. member in this House does not know where white South Africa is?The Bantu are here to sell their labour in the white homeland, and if the Bantu do not want to sell their labour here, why should they be here? Why should services be provided for them here; why should housing be provided for them; why should pensions be provided for them; why should education be provided for them; why should health services be provided for them?

Who says they do not want to sell their labour here?

Sir, this hon. member, who spoke for half an hour and said nothing, now wants to use my ten minutes. Why should the Bantu who do not have labour to sell be cared for here in the white area when there are Bantu who are very keen to come and sell their labour here? Those Bantu then have to stay away because there are Bantu here who might want to work.

But that is not true here in Cape Town; you know it.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not object to the hon. member saying that I am saying something which is not true and that I know it, because he knows that what I am saying is the truth.

On a point of order, Sir, may the hon. member say to the Deputy Minister, “That is not true and you know it”?

Order! What the hon. member said was quite in order. What he said did not have the same implication as the hon. member is attaching to it.

Sir, if hon. members will keep quiet now, I shall deal with them further. The hon. member for South Coast referred to what I had said about labour at Lichtenburg last year in opening a show there, when I explained to farmers what the Government’s policy in regard to labour matters was. He now wants to suggest here, as they tried to do, encouraged by the English Press, shortly after I had made that speech, that I said that we would in fact have slave labour in South Africa. Sir, nothing is further from the truth. The hon. member should go and read my speech again. What I said there was that a Bantu who is registered as a farm labourer in the white area could not enter a prescribed area, i.e. an urban area, from there to seek employment in that prescribed area unless he was signed off there, and if he should return to his homeland and have himself registered as a work-seeker in his homeland, then he can obtain employment from there, whether as a fruit picker or a shearer or a building worker or whatever. The hon. member can go and read my speech again. He also knows that this is so. If he has a free translation of my speech, an incorrect translation, I shall provide him with a correct translation. Hon. members on that side should stop sowing suspicion as though we were making use of slave labour in South Africa. They are still propagating their dual policy here, i.e. to say that we are oppressors, when it suits them, particularly when we discuss this Vote, but to sing a completely different tune when they go back to the rural areas; when they go to the rural areas they are the most conservative country people and then the negrophiles (Kafferboeties) are sitting whether large grants should be made to them.

I just want to come back to the hon. member for Transkei, who told the sad story this afternoon of the tragic drought conditions prevailing in the Transkei. He is quite right. It is dry and people are having a hard time there. But why does the hon. member suggest here that so much is being done for ¡the Whites in drought-stricken areas, while the people in the Transkei do not receive that assistance? The hon. member can look up the Estimates of the Transkeian Government. If ¡the hon. member looks at those Estimates, he will see that that Government receives a statutory allowance plus an additional allowance from this Government. Their Estimates are submitted to the Ministry and passed by us. If the amounts are insufficient, we consider on this side of the House, according to them. The hon. member should look at sub-head M, on page 16 of the Transkeian Estimates, under the heading “Relief for distress—R201,000”. We also find appropriations under “Agricultural Planning and Development, Improvement of Livestock, Project Experiments, Improvement to Crops, Assistance to Farmers”, etc. They also spend a large amount on assistance to farmers, just as this Parliament does. Why does the hon. member try to suggest here that those people do not receive assistance as well? The hon. member knows that that is not the case, or he ought to know that it is not.

That is untrue.

The hon. member may say “That is untrue” if he wishes. The hon. member knows that what I am telling him is true. He knows that if there is famine in the Transkei, that Government will approach this Government. They will not approach us through him, because he does not represent the Bantu here. The Transkeian Government will approach us and if there is any shortage of food, we shall help them. We have already supplied them with mealie meal, maize, and so forth, in the past. The hon. member says that maize and kaffir corn are given to Lesotho, but not to the Transkei. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Deputy Minister who has just sat down made an absolute exhibition of himself. Atone moment he attacked the hon. member for Transkei because he pleaded on behalf of the Bantu in the Transkei. Towards the end of his speech the Deputy Minister quoted from the Estimates of this House …

No. [Interjections.]

You are making a fool of yourself, I quoted from the Transkei budget.

Now he tells us what he was quoting from. A moment ago he said he was quoting from the Estimates under subhead “M” to show what was being made available.

No.

Oh, well, I accept he was quoting from the Transkeian budget. But that is not the only item which the Transkeian Parliament deals with. This Parliament has granted certain powers to the Transkeian Parliament to deal with certain aspects of government. It has withheld others, and it has withheld above all the right to veto by the Cabinet of any law passed by the Transkeian government. In other words, this Parliament remains supreme over every subjeot which they can legislate upon.

For the moment.

For the moment, yes. But that Minister and the Government want to hand over that supremacy, whilst we on this side do not want to hand it over. For the moment this Parliament still controls numerous aspects of government as far as the Transkei is concerned. I want to ask the hon. the Minister or the Deputy Minister whether in fact this Parliament has no right to deal with matters which fall under the direct control of this Parliament, for instance influx controls in white areas, which was the original issue raised by the hon. member for Transkei. The Chief Minister of the Transkei himself has questioned the Central Government’s policy in regard to influx control. When the hon. member for Transkei raises a subject which the Chief Minister has himself questioned and attacked then the Deputy Minister gets up and says it has nothing to do with this Parliament. So it would appear that the black Chief Minister of the Transkei can attack this Government on influx control but we. the members of the supreme legislative body of South Africa, are not allowed to do so. Is that what Parliament has come to? Are we not allowed to raise in this Parliament, subjects which we control? [Interjections.] That hon. member, however, is prepared to listen to the Chief Minister of the Transkei. I want to deal with the other issue raised by the Deputy Minister, namely his allegation of so-called slave labour. We have had another chapter in the Hocus-Pocus, the great illusion of the. Government in regard to legislation and administration. In the past Durban was a white city and now suddenly Hocus-Pocus comes along and waves a wand and says, “Here is Umlazi, it is a border area”, and Durban ceases to be a white city and becomes a border area. Pretoria is a white city and Hocus-Pocus, says, “Abracadabra! I declare thee now a Bantustan”. [Interjections.] And so they create the illusion of a Bantustan at Rosslyn and the white city of Pretoria becomes a border area. East London was a white city and he says, “Abracadabra! Mdantsane is also here …” [Interjections.]

Order! What language is the hon. member speaking? There are only two official languages in this country.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I understand that is an accepted English idiom, it is the first word in most English dictionaries.

We now have the latest episode which we have heard described tonight as a “change in labour control regulations”. I happened to be present, and in case the Government or the Minister are interested. I was legally present, at a meeting where I heard this described as “the abolition of influx control”. Those are the new regulations to which the hon. member for Heilbron referred. The regulations are contained in Government Gazette No. 2029 and were described to the Bantu at an official meeting by an official of the Government as “the abolition of influx control”. There we had the abracadabra again, the waving of a wand. This looking in a mirror is achieved by saying the new regulations of the Minister mean there is no longer influx control into the white areas but there is now efflux control, out of the Bantu areas. I was present when it was explained to the Bantu that this was the new image of the Government; the Bantu would now control the movement of their own workers out of their areas, instead of the white man controlling the movement into the white area. Both the hon. the Deputy Minister and the hon. member for Heilbron agree. I have the regulations right here and I wish I had time to deal with them because they contain certain over-riding conditions. For instance, one lays down that no one may be placed in employment unless he is requisitioned by the chief labour officer. Secondly that the chief labour officer shall determine and zone every area and say where those people may work.

You should read that at the first light of dawn.

I have read this over and over. This is the official Government Gazette, but because of my limited time I have to compress it. If ever there was anything approaching slave labour it is contained in this edict, because every unemployed Bantu isobliged by law to register for employment within one month. He is placed under a penalty if he fails to register and then to accept the machinery which is linked to these regulations.

But you are in favour of this.

I am not in favour of this. This means that Bantu labour officers in every tribe in South Africa are going to determine who shall obtain work. They will determine it and I submit that many of those Bantu labour officers will determine it not on the ability of the person to work, but on what it is worth to him to find work for that person. What about the employer? No employer may now employ anyone other than a section 10 Bantu for more than one year. At the end of that year he must go back to his homeland, which provides a free subsidy for the hon. the Minister of Transport. The employer must then pay a registration fee of R1 as subsidy for the Bantu employment officers and to create jobs for the tribal labour officer, the regional labour officer and the territorial labour officer. This is a subsidization expected from the employers. Every householder in South Africa who employs a Bantu has to employ that Bantu, if they are not section 10 Bantu, for one year. At the end of that year they must go back to the homeland even if they have not seen it in their lives and even if they have never been there. They then go to a tribal labour officer and apply for work. If there is a requisition they come back, the employer paying the R1 and the transport. This is nothing but a direction of labour contrary to every concept of labour usage in the whole civilized world. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durban (Point) made a terrible statement here in saying that the new idea of control over the Bantu from the homelands was slavery.

I said that it came close to slavery.

The hon. member also insinuated that the Bantu headman who had to allocate the work would consider what it would be worth to him, in other words, he was already accusing that man of being open to bribery.

I did not refer to the headman.

The man who allocates the work. Last year hon. members voted in favour of the control of Coloured labour, and listen to what the hon. member for Durban (Point) is saying now. Where do we stand with these United Party members? One shudders to think that half of the time in this Parliament is spent on listening to this kind of talk, which only creates unrest and dissatisfaction. There are quite a few misconceptions here, because the United Party is under the impression that all the hon. members on this side of the House are suppressors of the blacks. This is the idea that they have. The hon. member for South Coast takes great pride in saying that he represents both the Whites and the non-White in his constituency. What does the hon. member think I am doing? What does the hon. member think are my feelings towards the non-Whites? Do I regard them as enemies? I regard them as people who, just like me, are doing their best to develop this country and who are also doing their share. Mr. Chairman, in these debates the United Party has said in the past that the National Party was deceiving the electorate. They maintain that we first said “apartheid”, and then changed it to “separate development”. The hon. member for Hillbrow said in this House that we had had apartheid for 300 years, and he asked why we had to put it on the Statute Book now? In other words, why should we be honest and state our point of view clearly and unequivocally so that the world may know it? Therefore, why should we not bluff and continue in the old way? He asked, “Why separate entrances for White and non-White? Why must there be Bantu homelands?” Let me just read to hon. members a piece written by a Negro, Harry Edwards, in the latest Saturday Evening Post in America. Under the heading “Why Negroes should boycott Whitey’s Olympics” he wrote as follows—

Vause, Vause!

Order!

… that I had overheard his description. But discus-throwing in no way dimmed my memory of the south side of East St. Louis, where I grew up. Like everyone else there, the Edwards family lived on beans and spaghetti and watched neighbourhood kids …

This is in America, where they have equality. This is where the United Party policy is being applied—

This is the man’s photograph. The article was published in America. Then these people tell me that we are oppressing the non-Whites. This man writes here that he had been in jail without having had a trial.

In America?

In America! Cassius Clay said, “Let us also have our own area where we can live.” But what is happening there? And then we hear the bluffing stories of the Opposition, “do not tell them this is apartheid. It has been going on like this for 300 years.” But what is happening in America to-day? The greatest riots imaginable are occurring there. If the United Party could only appreciate two points! If they could only understand the people! The first is that they do not accept that the Bantu can be a nation. Neither do they accept that the South Africans, English and Afrikaans speaking, can be a nation. Must I tell hon. members why?

How many nations are they?

One nation, the South African nation. The hon. member for Hill brow is making a remark. there. Just see what the hon. member for Hillbrow said on 7th February (Hansard, 1968, col. 139-140)—

[Interjections.]

Order!

He is not prepared to accept that he, a farm lad like myself,_ born in the Free State, is a member of a nation. I have to vote in Holland. Really, I cannot take this. If this is the idea of the United Party, they will never understand the nationhood of a Bantu either. Why should the Xhosa of the Transkei not be proud and say: “This is my country, and eventually I shall get my own government and develop independently”? But they see oppression in our policy. I see separate development for both groups in our policy. But one also finds a type of person who always see nothing but problems. The United Party are always seeing nothing but problems. What is the result of this? The result is that they keep on shrinking; they are becoming smaller and smaller. If I may make a suggestion to those members, I want to tell them that if they also want to be proud of their party their approach should be: We are also prepared to tackle an enormous project. This side of the House is prepared to undertake this enormous task of developing the homelands for the Bantu. Those hon. members made a fuss because the hon. the Minister had said that he did not care what it cost. My own people tell me that if they know that the Whites and the non-Whites can have a future in this country, they do not care what it costs, because the future of their children cannot be measured in terms of money. The task is too great for them to understand. I want to read something to them and if they can manage to understand it, their whole approach to this matter will change—

I am not saying that those hon. members are “cowards”—

Those hon. members can berate this side of the House morning, noon and night, and they may touch here and touch there in this kind of debate, but they will not get anywhere. [Interjections.] We are in a happy mood tonight, but I say that I am in earnest about this matter, because I want my child to live in this country as I have lived in it.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Standerton covered a wide range of subjects. When he started speaking about spaghetti and beans I thought that he was even going into the realms of agriculture but he came back to the old story when he started speaking about apartheid and separate development. He said that a party will succeed if it thinks it can win. Well, ours is a party that knows it can win. They, on the other hand, have been thinking about these things for 20 years and we have been looking for the fruits of apartheid and separate development but we see nothing happening. We have seen no development at all. At the end of the hon. member’s speech I felt like saying “Vrystaat”. There were a lot of empty noises but nothing was really achieved. I would advise the hon. member to get down to some solid thinking and to have a good look at separate development and see where he can mend his ways. I believe that that policy has a lot of things which should be put right in the very near future. I do not want to follow the hon. member any further because I do not think that he made any serious contribution to the debate. Earlier in the debate there was considerable confusion on that side of the House as to who was representing whom. I want to say to hon. members opposite that we on this side accept that we represent not only the Bantu in our own constituencies but the Bantu anywhere in South Africa. It is with this object in view that I have risen to speak. There are very serious problems on which I want to focus attention, especially in the platteland of the Eastern Cape. If hon. members opposite took their duty seriously they would have been raising these very problems which I am now obliged to raise on their behalf. I refer to towns such as Middelburg, George, Knysna, Mossel Bay, Humansdorp and Graaff Reinet.

What about Walmer?

Walmer is in very good hands and the hon. Deputy Minister need not worry about it. I should like to tell the hon. Deputy Minister that as long as he is in this House I will be representing Walmer. If conditions in the platteland brought about especially as a result of the policy of that Government go on as they are I have grave doubts as to whether that Deputy Minister will be in his seat for very much longer. I want to focus attention on the position in the Bantu locations in these platteland towns to which I have just referred. I want to say that these locations are now in a very serious condition. The situation that has arisen there has definitely arisen as a result of the lack of policy of this Government. They say they have a policy but there is nothing that they seem to implement. There have introduced the Eiselen Line and they tell us that all the areas east of the Eiselen Line constitute a Bantu preferential area whilst the areas west of the Eiselen line, although I believe that it has been shifted lately to the Cat-Fish-line, is a Coloured preferential area. Now, as it happens, these towns that I mentioned earlier, which are situated just west of the Eiselen Line, are now in a Coloured preferential area but at the same time they have a very considerable Bantu population. I make bold to say that that population will be there ad infinitum.Irrespective of the policy of this Government they will be there forever. They are a detribalized, permanently settled community west of the Eiselen Line. The problem that has arisen is that the Government is prepared to assist in sub-economic housing in these Coloured preferential townships for the Coloured people. But they are doing absolutely nothing to assist the development of the Bantu townships for the Bantu people. I want to make a very strong plea here this evening that this Government must look into the situation. They must go and see what is happening there and take steps to implement immediately some method of providing housing for these people. Nothing is being done for these people in these Bantu townships. I want to inform the Committee of conditions there. Let us take the example of Middelburg. No houses have been built in the Bantu location in Middelburg since 1938. Squatters’ camps are springing up. The streets are bad, littered and untidy. Sanitation consists of a bucket system which the municipality recovers in a very haphazard manner. Generally conditions are very bad. The population there consists of 5,000 Bantu people who are going to be there permanently settled for as long as we can see into the future. Nothing is being done by this Government to ease the housing situation there. This Government tells us that it is keeping communism under control. I want to warn them that in these places where the conditions are deteriorating so rapidly they are creating the very conditions which agitators can exploit. These conditions are worsening and the local municipalities are deeply concerned about it. When they approached the Government the Government said that its policy is that these Bantu are to be moved into the Bantu homelands or into the areas east of the Eiselen Line. But this is not going to happen, Sir. This position is going to get worse and worse. My question to the hon. the Minister this evening is to ask him what he is going to do about these locations which are housing in the platteland towns some 5,000 Bantu. What is he going to do about the housing situation in these particular towns?

What is your policy?

Our policy would be to see that sub-economic loans are made available to them so that the municipalities can build the houses which those people must have. I am warning hon. members opposite that if they do not follow this same policy they are going to create a very serious situation.

And land ownership?

I am not talking about land ownership. I am talking about housing. Furthermore, if the hon. member wants to know, this party stands for a well settled middle class of Bantu. The sooner this Government accepts that policy, the better oil they will be.

Mr. Chairman, there is one matter on which I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. member for Walmer, and that is when he called out “Vrystaat!” to the hon. member for Standerton’s statements in connection with the practical implications of the implementation of our policy of separate development. I also call out “Vrystaat!” to that. It is well-known how the Opposition can trim their sails to the wind. In the rural areas they can act Nationalist, and in the cities they can talk Progressive. Here in the House of Assembly they are much more wary of discussing matters of policy. They are very reluctant to do so; sometimes one can hardlytempt them to do so. It is difficult to persuade them to do so. Sometimes they veer to the right and then they veer to the left again. This evening we had a veritable Babel of tongues. It is difficult to comprehend the Opposition’s approach to separate development. Sometimes it would seem as though a few of them are gaining a better insight into the matter and a slightly better understanding of what separate development really means. In this connection I refer in particular to the hon. member for Sea Point, who recently declared in great earnest that there was a large measure of agreement between the Opposition and the Government in respect of separate development. His approach was inter alia—this is how he put it here—that separate co-existence was an accepted traditional way of life in South Africa on which all were agreed, which should also be made very clear to the enemies of South Africa abroad. The question then arises whether this is a sign of a break-through to greater political realism within the ranks of the Opposition. Another manifestation of acceptance among members on the opposite side is the sporadic attacks on “petty apartheid”, as they term it, or “little apartheid”, as the hon. member for Bezuidenhout calls it in this House, outside and even abroad. If one analyses the attacks made on petty apartheid, it is clear that deep in their minds they accept the fundamental basis of apartheid or separate development. In actual fact one should rather put it in a negative way and say that deep in their minds they cannot reason it away. In front of non-Whites they try to create the impression that they are as sensitive about certain separate amenities as the Coloured people supposedly are. The fact of the matter is that what they describe as petty apartheid is an accepted pattern of life in South Africa …

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order …

Order! A point of order is being taken.

Sir, I have only a few minutes.

Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member allowed to read his speech?

The hon. member is not allowed to read his speech.

Sir, I am not reading it.

The hon. member may proceed.

What they regard as petty apartheid is a centuries-old traditional way of life in South Africa. Any neutralization of this finer nuance of our policy will, in my opinion, amount to driving in the thin end of the wedge. It will bring about social contacts which will eventually undermine the foundations of our South African way of life, and undermine and threaten our survival as Whites, with our numerical inferiority. If petty apartheid is the Opposition’s main objection to the Government’s policy, they must tell us how, by means of their integration policy, if they should get an opportunity to implement it, they would protect and maintain this way of life, which, _ according to the hon. member for Sea Point, is accepted by them as well. How would they be able to protect it and preserve it as a treasure for the future? The misconception lies in the fact that they supposedly accept the South African race relations tradition of separate co-existence, but fail hopelessly when it comes to formulating it. Then they have no political formula for this traditional way of life which, in its practical application and implications, is acceptable to both the Whites and the non-Whites in our country.

Sir, I am a supporter of the idea that, as far as the colour problem is concerned, we as Whites, and even here in this House as Opposition and Government, should as far as possible display a united front both internally and externally. Nothing would be more beneficial to South Africa than if we could be unanimous in stating our colour policy to the outside world and to the non-Whites as well. That would convince the ouside world that, as far as this matter is concerned, we formed a firm united front. This would also make the Bantu, as well as our enemies abroad, aware of the fact that, even if there should be a change of government, there would be no change of policy in respect of the application of this colour philosophy or way of life in South Africa. In my opinion the very basis for such a united attitude is to be found in the general acceptance of the traditional South African way of life, as applied in practice in history and also at the present time. The success of the National Party and this Government lies in the very fact that they have succeeded in not only propagating but also formulating their policy. They are implementing it by way of legislation and it is being generally accepted. The test lies in the content and the purport of policy. As the English saying goes, the proof of the pudding lies in the eating, not so? Therein lies the success of the National Party. The fundamental defect of the United Party is the fact that they cannot succeed in formulating an acceptable colour policy. They vacillate between the policy of the Progressive Party and that of the National Party. They speak of accepting the traditional colour policy, with the omission of petty apartheid, but accept a contradictory policy of integration, and align themselves with the world point of view in respect of the equalization of all races, in which the colour line is removed. They propagate economic and political integration in this country. If it should eventually be applied, it would inevitably and logically lead to social integration, which would inevitably mean the downfall of thewhite man in this country. It would also result in the majority vote ultimately determining who is to rule this country in future. By means of their integration policy they are laying the foundation for a position that would become untenable in future and which would inevitably lead to a black majority government in this country. The rightist group in the Opposition should not allow themselves to be led by the nose by the leftist group in this way. The rightist group ought to make a drastic attempt to alter the divergent policy of the “verligtes” in such a way that a basis can be found on which we can present a more united front to the outside world and also to the non-Whites as far as colour relations are concerned, to the benefit of all of us. [Time expired.]

I want to refer to the political hypocrisy which is practised by the United Party. They sit in this House under the protection of an apartheid Government, and if it were not for the principle of apartheid or separate development which is maintained in this country by the Government, they would definitely not have been in this House. Then the same chaotic conditions which prevail in Africa and elsewhere in the world because there is no separate development, would also have prevailed here. I want to refer to what the situation was in 1948, when there was a form of control which simply created chaotic conditions throughout the war years. If it had not been for the fact that this Government. after it came into power in 1948, introduced measures to bring the situation under control and gradually to tighten up matters in this connection, we would in fact have been in a position to-day in which it would have been impossible to maintain proper government in this country.

Now the hon. members for South Coast and Durban (Point) come along and make certain statements here, but these same hon. members enjoy protection of hearth and home and enjoy the benefits of progress, but if it had not been for this Government there would have been no protection for capital investment in this country, there would have been no security, and industrial development would not have taken place, because one would have had the same chaotic conditions in the industrial and social spheres as one finds elsewhere in the world to-day. That is why I call what those hon. members are practising here hypocrisy.

But I should like to come to another point, i.e. in connection with South West Africa, and I want to try to make a constructive contribution to this debate. I want to refer to the enormous natural resources in the Okavango River area and the homeland of the same name. In fact, in all those northern border areas of South West Africa there are exceptionally large water supplies, a commodity which is otherwise so scarce in Southern Africa and the Republic. I want to ask that attention be given to the matter of establishing a dynamic infrastructure in those Bantu homelands. I am aware of what has been done and I am grateful for what is being done to establish an infrastructure, but in my opinion we can still do a good deal more. Hon. members who recently visited those areas will agree with me that that is a natural resource which can mean a great deal not only to those Bantu areas, but also to South Africa, in that in the field of agriculture, for example, one can turn the Okavango Valley into a source of supply for the whole of South Africa as a result of the water resources which are there and which are not being fully utilized at present. A dam can be built there and electricity can be generated. These are all things which can contribute to the infrastructure, but before something like that is undertaken, roads will have to be built, and in my opinion a railway line is essential for heavy traffic to and from those areas, especially if the timber reserves in the woody parts in that area and further eastwards towards the Caprivi are to be developed. Transport is difficult there because it is a sandy area. That is why the cost of ordinary road transport is very high, particularly as a result of the fairly high cost involved in building roads there. Road-building materials have to be brought in from a distance, which entails heavy expenditure. In my opinion the obvious solution is to build a railway line for the development of those areas.

I mentioned that we should develop the Okavango area to become a source of supply for South Africa. Until quite recently, with drought conditions prevailing in those areas, especially in the south, considerable quantities of maize were imported from the Republic, at very high cost. I suppose that the cost is so high as a result of the fact that transport costs to those areas are high as a result of the circumstances mentioned. In my opinion this would in fact not have been necessary if, for example, all the water of that area had been properly utilized and planned and if a grain elevator had even been built there to store up food supplies for hard times, especially when agricultural production decreases. The question of how one is going to get the water out of the river is asked here. The area is a level one and it is easy to get the water out of the river. In fact, a form of irrigation is being practised on a small scale at present and I think that by using ordinary gravitational methods water can be taken from the river by means of canals at various places. Plans have already been drawn up. I am aware that the water division of the South West Africa Administration investigated the matter as far back as 1955. But as a result of the fact that it would require a considerable amount of capital, it was referred to the authorities in the Republic, and one of the reasons why the Odendaal Commission was appointed was in fact to investigate such questions and to see what the potential of those areas is. In fact, the Odendaal Commission points out the importance of developing aninfrastructure for those areas. Thus, for example, a road is being planned from the white area, from Grootfontein all along the Okavango and through the Caprivi Strip to Katima Mulilo on the Zambezi River. I am only mentioning this because it will mean a considerable saving in costs to us and will at the same time stimulate other development and make those areas independent of the food supplies of the Republic.

I cannot follow the hon. member for Etosha in his detailed references to South Weest Africa; but I cannot but refer to his reference to the fact that in 1948 there were chaotic conditions in South Africa. To my mind, for anybody to say that shows how time allows you to stand things on their head. In 1948 South Africa’s name stood far higher in the world than it does to-day. In 1948 immigrants were streaming into this country and positively had to be kept out. In 1948 money was flowing to this country in a way it has not done ever since. [Laughter.] Hon. members opposite, including Ministers, show some mirth at that comment. It just shows that they are not aware of the situation. The fact is that in 1948 the country was in such a good position that the changeover when the present Government took over happened as smoothly as the changing of a glove, and indeed they made very few changes in regard to representation and things like that for a very long time. We had representation of the Native peoples in this House right up to 1959. One would have thought, judging from the way they talk, that the world would come to an end if one had any such representation in this House. So much for the hon. member for Etosha, but then the hon. member for Marico made some remarkable statements which, since I am the first speaker on this side of the House to follow after him, I must make some comment upon.

The hon. the Deputy Minister, Mr. Coetzee, is very fond of saying that we see a lion in our road; but the hon. member for Marico and every hon. member opposite see a far bigger lion when they keep on being mesmerized by numbers. They are mesmerized by the majority of the Native peoples in this country. They used not to be. There was a time, right up to 1959, when hon. members opposite saw no difficulty in having limited representation for the Native peoples of this country. But in 1959, under their late leader, they suddenly saw a great big lion in their road. But funnily enough, they see a lion in their road as far as the Natives are concerned, but as far as the Coloureds are concerned, a far more advanced section, they apparently see no difficulty in having no representation in this House for them at all, even though it is believed that in time the Coloured people will outnumber us in this country.

We are not arguing the Coloured Vote now.

The hon. member for Marico says we are not arguing the Coloured Vote. That is just as well, because there is no logic in their point of view. We are told that we must have independent states for the Native people because otherwise we cannot have peace in this country; but for the Coloured people there are to be no independent states. I cannot tarry very long on the hon. member for Marico, except to make one other point, and this is also in answer to the hon. the Minister.

In reply to the debate on South West Africa, he said there are two roads in this country, either integration or separation. I said to him then that in the World Court case in regard to South West Africa at The Hague an expert, speaking on behalf of South Africa, said there were at least three roads in a situation like ours, in a situation where you have more than one group intermingled as we have here. This was Prof. Van der Haag, the professor of sociology, I think it is, at New York University. He said that where you have groups intermingled, you have at least three situations, and this is as reported in Die Burger. He said you can either have partition, which hon. members opposite stand for, or you can have integration leading to assimilation …

As you stand for.

Yes, that is what hon. members opposite think, and of course they never tire of saying it and we cannot prevent them from doing so. But Prof. Van der Haag says there is a third way which he mentioned in the name of South Africa at The Hague, namely that where you have people intermingled you can have them with a separate existence but under one Government. That is what he said, and I will read it to hon. members in case they do not believe me—

That is what hon. members opposite profess they no longer see. For all the years of Nationalist Government régime until 1959, they were perfectly happy on that third road, and it is that third road upon which we are set and it is the third road which will produce the answer for South Africa. [Interjections.] You see, Sir, they see lions in their road very readily, and they are not like their fathers, because their fathers did not see such lions in the road.

Sir, I want to get on to certain questions affecting the urban Native. We were told by the hon. member for Marico, when he spoke a moment ago, that we in our hearts accept separate development but, Sir, how can we when this policy is changing so rapidly? In a discussion with “Trouw” on the 13th Decernber, 1963, Die Burger, perhaps the most influential organ of the Nationalist Party, indicated what their policy was and what the great issues were, and what did they say? They said that the great issue was whether we could suck back—note “suck back”—to the Native reserves the Bantu who were here, and secondly, whether the Bantu people here could be won for the idea of these homelands. Those were the two questions which, according to Die Burger, we in South Africa went to bed with and stood up with in the morning. That was their policy at that time, namely, that the Banu could be sucked back to their homelands and that they could be won over to accept the idea of Bantu homelands, and now what do we find?

We have not changed.

The hon. member over there says that they have not changed, but I want to say to him that they have absolutely abandoned the idea of sucking these people back to their homelands by means of creating opportunities for them there. They are now in favour of a policy of forcing them back by endorsing them out of the white area. In a moment I will quote their own departmental circular which bears this out. They have abandoned the idea of winning these people over to accept the idea of going back to their own areas. The hon. the Minister went to Potchefstroom and this is what he said there: “Die kern van ons beleid is nie om ’n grootskaalse verwydering van die mense te kry nie, maar om hulle te veranker, tradisioneel, politick, ens.”

Why do you not quote properly?

I have a report of the Minister’s speech here. I think I have given substantially what he said.

Quote from the original report.

The hon. the Minister said—

Read on.

Sir, I only have about another three minutes.

Do not be a coward.

I am not going to get injury time and I need my three minutes.

Sir, I say that this Government has run away from the policy as outlined by Die Burgerand that they are now forcing these people back; that they are not going to try to win them over to go back to these areas, but they are going to put them back there, and the only anchoring that is going to take place is to dump them there. I now want to quote to he Committee from a circular of the Department of Bantu Administration, dated the 12th December, 1967, a circular which has only come to light now. This is what it says—

There is no queestion now of “sucking them back”—

[Time expired.]

Before I come to the interesting part of my speech—not that the other part will be uninteresting—I just want to deal with a few random ideas which the hon. member for Transkei expressed here. The first is the question of the aged. The hon. member for Transkei said that we were endorsing pensioners out of here “and that we dump them in the homelands.” He js talking the greatest nonsense he has ever talked. They are not being endorsed out. We are affording the Bantu pensioners every possible assistance. We are trying to draw them to the homelands. We are giving them free transport to the homelands, for them and their possessions, and for any dependants they wish to take with them. We are giving them free housing there.

Where?

There are many such places. The hon. member for Transkei ought to be ashamed of himself.

I have a letter here which I shall read out.

Yes, he always has letters, and I shall return to one of his ridiculous letters in a moment. I challenge him to prove to me that we have dumped one aged pensioner in the homelands. It is untrue. [Interjections.]

Order! I wish to point out to the hon. Whip, the hon. member for Transkei, that one of his functions is to help me to maintain order.

Mr. Chairman, I feel sorry for you if you are dependent on his help. I say that not one single aged pensioner is being dumped in the homelands, and that the hon. member for Transkei is talking the greatest nonsense, malicious nonsense against his own country.

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister must withdraw the word “malicious”.

“Malicious”?

Yes, the hon. the Deputy Minister must withdraw it.

Sir, if you say that I must withdraw it, then I do so, but my vocabulary is really becoming limited now.

I now come to the hon. member for Transkei’s complaints about the adjustment committee. He apparently wants us to purchase all the properties which are offered to us. In the case of a large number of those properties, the offers made to us are just “phoney” ones. Those people want to make money out of the matter and we do not want them to make money out of it. Every case is investigated on its merits. From 1965 up to the present we have spent nearly R5 million on purchases in those areas.

That is nothing. What is the value of those places?

The hon. member has brought many of those cases to my attention. If they are urgent cases, jf they are cases causing distress, cases of hardship, we go into them. The hon. member knows that he brought quite a number of those cases to us and that they were referred to the adjustment committee and that the decisions were revised. The hon. member has not brought this hotel case to my attention previously. We are using all the money at our disposal to buy out these properties. The first properties which we buy are the urgent cases, but I want to say to the hon. member that he and a few of his old “pals” there must not come along to me with their “phoney” cases.

On a point of order, Sir, is the hon. the Deputy Minister allowed to accuse a member of this House of bringing “phoney” cases to him for purchase?

Sir, they bring all kinds of ridiculous cases to me. I simply refuse to accept those offers. They bring along all kinds of cases of mortgages which are ostensibly being called in and all that type of norisense. They must not come to me; let them look for other “suckers”

I now come to the cases of endorsing out, and I challenge the hon. member of Transkei to name me one single case in which a Bantu who was in the White area lawfully was endorsed out. Let us deal with the case which he mentioned, the case of the parson. This parson was in Soweto and he has now gone to Klerksdorp. He could not take his wife with him to Klerksdorp. What are the facts of the matter? The parson arrived in Klerksdorp and he did not tell the authorities that he was married. When he eventually brought it to their attention that he was married, they gave him and his wife a house. This now is one of the “cruel” cases of people being endorsed out! The hon. member mentioned two other cases of two church associations which could not obtain premises in Ottoshoop and De Hoop. Does the hon. member know that we are to-day still waiting for the applications from those church associations? Not a single application has been received from church associations as yet, and then the hon. member comes along here and talks about cases of endorsing out. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) spoke of hundreds of people leaving here in shackles. Does he know that each of those persons was found guilty by the courts? Does he know that they are tsotsis and law-breakers? Does he know that they are persons who cannot lawfully be here? That is the position. Then the hon. member for Durban (Point) comes along— and I must honestly say that I did not expect it of him—and he refers to these new regulations of ours as verging on slave labour. Sir, the last countries which levelled charges of slave labour against South Africa were Ethiopia and Liberia, and when they were challenged to come and see if there was slave labour here, they were too scared to come, and the World Court did not come here. Ethiopia and Liberia then withdrew every charge of slave labour against South Africa, but here we have to sit in this House of Assembly to-night and listen to a United Party M.P. repeating in this House the charges which Ethiopia and Liberia had withdrawn. I say that the hon. member for Durban (Point) ought to be ashamed of himself.

Is there compulsory registration?

The hon. member for South Coast referred to people being endorsed out and “dying of starvation”in the homelands. Who has died of starvation —the hon. member for Durban (Point)? Has he died of starvation? I say to the hon. member for South Coast that he ought to be ashamed of himself. If there are Bantu who are dying of starvation—and he is the person who says that he represents all the Bantu—why has he not yet been to me, to my colleague or to the Minister? Is he not ashamed of himself? This is the type of thing which, in the present world atmosphere, is heing proclaimed in this House by members in an abortive attempt to catch a few votes. I challenge the hon. member for South Coast; he is a senior member and a person for whom I have great respect. He said that people who are endorsed out die of starvation in the homelands. I challenge him to stand up to-night or on any other occasion and mention to me the name of one single Bantu who had been endorsed out and who died or was dying of starvation. If he has any such facts at his disposal, then it is his duty to bring those facts to the attention of the Minister, the Deputy Ministers and the Department. I am sick and tired of the irresponsibility which we get here from hon. members on that side. To continue, I say that not one single Bantu, male or female, who was in the White area lawfully, and who was in employment here, has been endorsed out. I want to ask the hon. member for Transkei whether he wants to keep those unlawful sojourners in the White area? If he wants to keep them in the White area, what becomes of their influx control? If people enter the White area illegally and you are not allowed to endorse them out, what becomes of influx control? The United Party is forever telling us that it is in favour of influx control. It reminds me of the hon. Senator Rail in the Other Place, who said, “Yes, the people are there illegally, but abolish all the laws, then they are there legally.” Sir, I am not going to let the Opposition get away with these ridiculous accusations against the Government. What is their policy? They supposedly stand for influx control, but their policy is that Bantu labour should ibe supplied in White areas upon demand. Every shop, every industry, every commercial undertaking which wants Bantu labour, must be able to get it, and that labour must then come in on a family basis. Sir, in a speech a year or so ago the hon. the Minister said—and he proved it—that if the industrial land on the Witwatersrand continued to be occupied according to the same pattern as at present, and if all the land which is at their disposal to-day, is occupied, one would have an increase of 700,000 Bantu on the Witwatersrand, of whom 200,000 would be unmarried, and according to the United Party’s policy these 200,000 would be allowed to bring in their families as well. That would mean an extra million. We know that for every man who works in industry, two work in secondary and tertiary industries. In other words, one must bring in almost 2½ million more Bantu on a family basis. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we have heard a lot of blustering from this hon. Deputy Minister before, but never as bad as to-night. And why? It is because of a guilty conscience. He thinks that he can bluster his way through the charges we made against his party. It is remarkable that this hon. Deputy Minister is always put up to defend the Government when they are in a spot. He even used unbridled language, for which he had to be called to order. He himself said that his vocabulary was being censored. The fact is that he does not know how to speak unless he uses insulting language, and unless he can make personal remarks he is not happy. This does not help him to get out of his troubles, however.

Order! The hon. Deputy Minister has withdrawn those remarks, and the hon. member for Transkei may not refer to them again. [Interjections]. Order! I want to point out to hon. members that order is maintained by the Chair. The hon. member for Transkei may proceed.

The hon. the Deputy Minister first dealt with the case I raised with him, namely about the parson who was not allowed to take his wife with him. He now tells me that inquiries made by his department showed that the parson did not apply for his wife to go with him. I find this very strange, because on the 20th March I wrote to the hon. the Deputy Minister because I received a complaint that the man was not allowed to have his wife with him. At Klerksdorp they said that he could not have his wife with him unless she was transferred from Soweto. At Soweto they said they knew nothing about transfers and they would not give her a transfer. I went to see this hon. Deputy Minister and I told the House that he met me very sympathetically and said that he would enquire about it. That was on the 20th March, and since then I have given him a reminder, written to him and seen him personally, but have had no reply. When I raised the question I said that there may be an answer, but that I have had no reply from the department. What more could I do than to bring this case to the attention of the department? Why could the department not have given me an answer before? The hon. the Deputy Minister could have given me an answer through his department before. I do not blame him. He did not have the answer presumably and has only got it now. I saw him this morning and he did not have the answer.

Do you believe every story you hear?

That is not the point. Before raising the case in this House I had the decency to go and see the department to find out what the facts were. Why could I not be given the facts? Why has it taken so long?

Why did you not wait for the facts?

I went to see the hon. the Deputy Minister this morning because the Vote was coming on this afternoon and told him that I have not had a reply since the 20th March. He told me to raise it in the House.

I did not say that.

You did say, “Raise it in the House”. I had no information and the least he could have done was to tell me that he had the information and then to give it to me. He did not do that. He did not have the defency to come and give me the information if he got it after I spoke to him this morning. This is what we get from that hon. Deputy Minister. I am surprised at him behaving in this manner. He says that nobody is endorsed out illegally. Is he going to say that the courts here have never overruled an endorsing-out order? Is he going to say that?

You know that mistakes can occur. It is the exception.

The point is that I said that people are endorsed out illegally. That is what I said. I also said that the courts have found that they have been endorsed out illegally. He now attacks me and challenges me and asks me to prove my case. He now says that this is the exception. It does not matter whether it is the exception or not. It is a fact that people are being endorsed out illegally, and that is what I said. That is what the people resent and that is also what I said to the hon. the Deputy Minister. He goes on and tells how he protects the Whites in the Transkei. He admits that I see him from time to time about the Whites in the Transkei and that I do take all my cases to him. He now talks about me bringing “phoney” cases to him. I want to ask him to give me one example of a “phoney” case which I brought to him. The hon. the Minister has helped in every case I brought to him personally. I will give him his due— every case I brought to him personally he has helped me with. Why? Because they have not been “phoney” cases, but cases with which the adjustment committee could not help me. Therefore I had to go to him. He is quite right that he is the Minister who gives this assistance.

He talks about calling up bonds. I have only given him one case where a bond was called up, and was that a “phoney” case? He assisted me. He told me how to get assistance. Then he said that other people were calling up bonds unnecessarily. But I want to ask the Deputy Minister: If a man has a bond on a property in the Transkei, why should he be compelled to sit with that bond until this Government decides whether it is an urgent case and the Bantu should be repaid? Why should a bondholder not be able to call up his bond? When a bondholder calls up the bond, why is it a phoney case? If he wants the money, why should he not be able to call up that bond? I have never heard anything so unjust as the policy stated by the Minister now, namely that, where bonds are called up, they are treated as phoney cases. They think there is collusion between the bondholder and the mortgagor. I wonder what he would do if he had a bond. He would call up the bond at once if he wanted the money. How does one know who does not need money? The case I brought him, was one in which a summons and a writ had _ been issued by the Supreme Court. Well, a bondholder does not go to all that expense and take that action if it is a phoney case of calling up a bond. That is absolute nonsense. This Deputy Minister is responsible for endorsing out. Why he is so annoyed and upset to-night, is because the whole policy is a failure. What he set out to do, he cannot do. But I want to tell him this: Instead of trying to make the towns less attractive, why does he not make the reserves so attractive that the Natives will want to go there? Under their policy influx control should be applied in the reserves to stop the Natives from flocking in. They do not want to go there because conditions are so unattractive. This Deputy Minister is the man who said they must make the towns less attractive so that the Bantu will go back to the reserves. I say to him again: Make the reserves more attractive, and they will go there. That is their natural homeland, according to the Government’s policy. That is where they should be. One will only make the reserves more attractive by giving the Bantu work. What is the Government doing about giving them work there?

The Minister talks about aged persons. He said that they do not send them to the Transkei without homes. I received a letter yesterday— and I shall bring it to him—from the Department of the Interior in the Transkei to say that there are no homes for them. I challenge this Deputy Minister to get up now—and everybody can hear the challenge—and to name one place in the Transkei where there is a home for aged people. He made the accusation that I was talking falsehoods. I challenge him: Name one place where old people can go to in the Transkei. There is not one. What is happening now, is that there is a place in the Ciskei where Transkeians are being put. But in the Transkei there is not one. I ask him to get in touch with his Department to find out. The challenge is there. He will have to-night and to-morrow to get an answer to this challenge I have given him. I say that the attack made by the Deputy Minister to-night was most unjust. It did not help him one bit.

When we talk about starvation, we talk about the shortage of food. This Deputy Minister must know that there is a shortage of food. His Department knows that I had to go and see the Department and the Railways to get mealies in the Transkei because there were no mealies coming through and the people were starving. If the Minister would just get in touch with his own Department, he will find out what the Department of the Interior in theTranskei—I have also got in touch with them —have arranged. His Department got in touch with their Department at my request. At my request this Department got in touch with the Department of the Interior to find out what is happening about the position of mealies. They said that there was a great shortage of mealies, but the Department of the Interior got in touch with the Railways and the Mealie Board, and they were able to send the mealies through. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, my complaint against this hon. member is not that he raises these matters in the House, but that he apparently takes notice of every bit of gossip that reaches his ears. He brought me the case of the parson. That was in March. I have to make inquiries. I do not have knowledge of every individual Bantu parson. I have to write for information. The hon. member knows as well as I do that it takes time to obtain this information.

More than two months?

What of it? That is quite normal. [Interjections.] The hon. member came to me this morning to inquire whether I had received the information. But at that time I had not yet received the information. Thereupon he informed me of his intention to raise the matter in the House. I had no objection to that. Subsequently the information became available to me, and what does it show? It shows that the hon. member based his case on nothing but gossip.

Why did you not give me the information?

How could I give that information to the hon. member privately after he had accused the Government in this House of refusing to allow a parson who was transferred by his church from Soweto to Klerksdorp, to take his wife with him? (Interjections.)

Order ! If hon. members do not cease making undue interjections now, I will have to prohibit interjections altogether.

I am not the one who raised this matter in the House; the hon. member did so. Why should I now go and tell him behind the scenes, in secret, what the position is, after he has here publicly accused the Government of refusing to allow a parson to take his wife with him from Soweto to Klerksdorp? What are the facts? We are not responsible for the fact that his wife did not go with him; he himself is responsible, because he omitted to say that he was married. But immediately after he had informed us that he was married, we gave him a house. The hon. member spoke of illegal endorsingout. Let hon. members bring such cases to our attention, because obviously cases do occur where people make mistakes. After all, it happens throughout the Public Service that peeople make mistakes, mistakes which are later rectified by the authorities. But the whole point of the attack made by hon. members opposite is not that there have been a few cases in which persons were endorsed out illegally, but that thousands upon thousands of people are being sent back illegally, and in shackles on top of it. Then they also come along with the story of slave labour, and the hon. member for South Coast comes along with the story that people are dying of hunger. And then they want me to keep quiet! No, Sir. I want to say that we are sick and tired of this false and erroneous propaganda which is being made, not against this Government, but against South Africa. [Interjections.] Yes, Sir, I say that any man who suggests that slave labour exists in South Africa, as the hon. member for Durban (Point) did, is not making propaganda against the Government, but against South Africa.

That is untrue.

Very well, but that also applies to any man who says that a situation verging on slave labour exists here.

I referred to compulsory labour registration.

Will the hon. member for Durban (Point) deny that he used the words “slave labour”? Did he not use the words “slave labour”?

Yes, but with reference to …

Well, any man who flings about the accusation of “slave labour” here, is not besmirching this Government, but the country as a whole, because it is a totally untrue allegation.

Is there compulsory registration or not?

Of course there is. As a matter of fact, there is compulsory registration for the hon. member as well, and if that had not been the case, he could not have become a Member of Parliament. But does that make a slave of the hon. member? The hon. member for Transkei wants to know why we do not make the homelands more attractive. But the fact of the matter is that the homelands are more attractive to-day than ever before. With its policy of the development of border areas the Government is succeeding in keeping at least one million Bantu in the homelands, Bantu who would have come to the white cities under the United Party’s policy, with families and all. I do not object to hon. members’ bringing irregularities to our attention, but they must not come alonghere with this kind of story; they must not come here and talk of slave labour and of thousands of people being endorsed out illegally. They suggest that people who are allowed to work here, are placed in shackles and endorsed out to die of hunger in their homelands. Can anything be more shocking than that? Hon. members can carry on as they like; they can abuse as much as they like; they can do just what they like—I shall proclaim these things from the rooftops wherever I go.

While the hon. member for Transkei was engaged in his disturbing outburst and in his emotional tirade, I sat the whole time and thought of how sorry we ought to be for him if the hon. the Deputy Minister should once again deal with him. Well, it has happened, and in that, I think, the hon. member got more than he can take this evening.

To the hon. member for Pinelands I want to say that the National Party sees no lion in the way. It sees no lion in the way as far as the execution of its policy of separate development is concerned; neither as far as the development of the Bantu homelands to stem the flow of Bantu to the White cities is concerned. In my previous speech I quoted examples of that, examples upon which I should now like to elaborate. I argued that our municipalities should make more funds available for the development of Bantu homelands. In this connection let me mention certain examples of what is in fact taking place. The municipality of Potchefstroom, for example, allocated the following amounts for that purpose during the past three years. Firstly there was an amount of R 150,000 to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development; secondly donations amounting to R20,500 to the territorial authority of the Tswana, donations with which, inter alia,they purchased an official motor car; thirdly, R1,000 to the Government of the Transkei; fourthly, R3,000 to certain regional authorities; fifthly, R9.300 to certain tribal authorities; and sixthly, R7,000 to schools and educational institutions—a total of R 191,400 over the past three years. This money was drawn from Bantu beerhall funds and from other funds that were available for the purpose. In addition an amount of R 1,300 was made available this year as bursaries for education in the homeland. These steps are being taken so that more hostels and schools can be built in those areas, so that children can have their education there. A by-product of this is the good influence which it has on the Bantu, because the Bantu appreciate this assistance. What is essential, is proper liaison between municipalities and the particular Bantu homeland in which they are interested. Recently, for example, the Municipality of Potchefstroom, sent three buses with school children, more than 100 of them, to areas in the Tswana homeland. This was done so that those children could learn more about their own homeland and in order to make them more aware of it. What was the reaction to this on the part of the Bantu? In this connection I want to quote to you from “The Voice of Ikageng”, a newspaper which circulates in this area. In it one pupil, 17 years of age, writes—

Listen to what the chairman of the Bantu Advisory Council of Ikageng has to say about Bantu homelands. Hon. members opposite must take note of this, because they are continually asking what we are doing to develop these areas and to make them attractive for the people. Surely it is something which cannot happen overnight. Surely one must begin from the bottom when you want to develop a nation and its territory. This is also the standpoint of these people. The person concerned—and here I again quote from “The Voice of Ikageng”—had the following to say in this connection—

That is what the Bantu themselves say after having made these visits. The editor continues by writing as follows—

These are the so-called backward areas referred to by hon. members opposite. It is important that this liaison should be there; it is extremely important that guest houses should be built. It is very important that money should be spent by these town councils on the entertainment of these chiefs from the tribal areas with their retinues. What is the result? The result is that the homeland is made more familiar to the urban Bantu by the Bantu from the homeland itself. It is also important in that the moneyed urban Bantu becomes interested in investing some of his capital in the Bantu homeland. He is also encouraged to do so. What is more, the homeland Bantu also receives an opportunity during these visits of exchanging ideas and discussing his problems not only with the Bantu leaders in the urban area, but also with the White leaders in the urban area.

Another idea which occurs to one is whether in the erection and establishment of these Bantu townships in the Bantu homelands the hon. the Minister should not consider making more use of the knowledge of the managers of non-White affairs and other officials of the town councils, who have had years of experience of the establishment and Administration of these Bantu townships. Use can also be made of the advisory assistance of these persons in connection with the administration of these townships in the Bantu areas. It is a well-known fact that as soon as a Bantu group accepts its homeland as its own country, they become positively orientated to assist actively in the development of that homeland. As the development takes place, shops are built, business undertakings are established, schools are built, and that is actually the important aspect. The schools which are established there, not only help to make those children culture conscious of their own area, but also attract teachers to that area, and they are an extremely important section in the development of any community. The people are attracted there and they establish themselves there. They then assist with the development of these areas. It is important that this development should take place. It must be borne in mind that municipalities should make more money available in respect of the subsidizing of the transport of the migratory labourers from the Bantu townships to the White areas where they can go to work. The Bantu can then visit his family in the homeland, say once a month or even more frequently if it is at all possible. I know that it is not always possible, but where it is possible, consideration must be given to the freezing of Bantu housing in the White area and to the greater development of Bantu housing in the Bantu homelands. This should be done wherever possible. An aspect which can be kept in mind along with this is the following. If a Bantu settles in such an area, then the wage which he earns in the White area should not be paid to him in full. A portion should be withheld to be paid to his family in the Bantu area where they are housed, because in practice it has been found that the Bantu will most probably not reach the Bantu homeland with all his money intact.

I mention these few steps which can be taken in developing these people and the areas of these people to ensure that the homelands can be developed in such a way that the black stream can return to the Bantu homelands. These are all positive steps which can be considered very profitably.

Mr. Chairman, we have heard some very sweeping statements made by hon. members opposite during the debate here this evening. I think one of these statements particularly deserves comment, and I refer to the statement made by the hon. member for Etosha earlier this evening when he said that before the National Party took over in 1948, there had never been greater integration chaos and unrest in South Africa.

How right he was.

There, we hear the hon. the Deputy Minister saying how right he was.

Are you denying the difficulties that General Smuts had both here in this country and at UNO in about 1947-’48? [Interjections.]

Why do you say he had difficulties?

Do you want to make another speech?

I wish the hon. member for Etosha would make another speech to see how he is going to explain himself. We know that during all the years before 1948, for almost 300 years, people in South Africa practised social segregation and economic integration. This was the position all the years preceding 1948 when that side took over from the United Party. What has happened since then? Over the past 20 years we have had more economic integration than we ever had prior to 1948. No-one can deny it. [Interjections.] All the figures show it. Figures from Government departments show us that never before have we had as much economic integration in South Africa as we have had here over the past 20 years, despite all this hot air we have had from Nationalists for 20 years. We can go out of this House and walk down any street in any town, village or city in South Africa and what will we see? We will see Coloured people, black people and white people.

That is not integration.

Of course it is economic integration. Under this Government it is not economic integration but when the United Party governs, then it is economic integration.

What attracts people to certain areas? It is work. This applies to anywhere in the world, not only in South Africa. Employment attracts people. This Government believes if Mohammed cannot be taken to the mountain, thenthe mountain must be taken to Mohammed, but it will never work. We in South Africa to-day owe our peace to the fact that the people’s bellies are full. I accept that this Parliament is supreme, I am distressed and disturbed that we here are in the process of creating unrest in South Africa because under the Government’s policy we are moving people away from work to areas where there is no employment or where no employment is being provided for them. [Interjections.] I should like to answer all these questions fired at me from that side, because there is nothing I like better than to hammer a Nat. When he asks me a question, but I do not have time.

During last yeear the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education mentioned as examples, industries here in the Western Cape introducing modern machinery which enables them to discharge many Bantu workers. They then have to go to the reserves, or they are forced to go under the Deputy Minister’s five per cent policy. The Deputy Minister also went further and said, as recorded in Hansard, that he stakes his political reputation on certain things happening by the year 1978.

During the recent celebrations of the Nationalist Party, when their congress was held here at Parow, the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development mentioned the same point. They celebrated 20 years of Nationalist rule. The Minister supported the Deputy Minister’s statement and he said the following—

Last year the Deputy Minister told us about the brick kiln which had paid off so many Bantu workers. He told us that between 600 and 720, Bantu worked in the brick kiln, producing 60 million bricks a year, and, when after the modern machinery was introduced the firm only required 60 Bantu to produce the same number of bricks. That would mean there are at least 600 displaced persons from that industry, according to what the Minister told us. I want to know from him, what has he done with them? Have they been sent back to the reserves?

It is all very well to make these sweeping statements and to bluff the Nationalist Party that something is being done. As a responsible South African I want to know from the Minister: what have you done with all those displaced persons? The Deputy Minister will have plenty of time to tell us. If they were sent back to the white areas of the Eastern Cape, for example to East London, which is close to the border of the Bantustan but is still in a white area, then what about modern machinery in East London? We are also civilized and developed in that part of the world. Not only the Western Cape is developing.

The Deputy Minister and I inspected certain looms some time ago. Only a few years ago those looms were each being operated by five men, and what is happening to-day? With the introducion of modern machinery each loom is being operated by one Bantu girl. What has happeneed to those men? You see, we are also introducing modern machinery to that area.

According to the hon. member for South Coast they all died of hunger.

I have heard the Deputy Minister making many statements to-night, and the more I listen to him the more confused I become.

We have heard so much about influx control. The Bantu people come to the white cities in terms of regulations. We have a Minister and two Deputy Ministers dealing with Bantu affairs. It is a pity they are not sitting together because it would remind me of the old phrase of “hear not, see not, speak not.” Did they think about influx control when they sent Bantu back to King William’s Town, Queenstown, East London, and other places, namely into white areas again? I fail to see how the Government can send Bantu from the Western Cape to the Eastern Cape without providing them with employment there. But this is being done. To-day we have thousands of jobless native people in the Eastern Cape. See, what the position is in the modern township of Mdantsane close to East London. Nobody can ascertain or estimate the total Bantu population in this township. There are supposed to be 40,000 people living there, which means six people to one dwelling. It is anybody’s guess how many people are in fact living there. Some people allege there are between 80,000 and 100,000 people living there. The surplus people have no employment. I have often wondered how hon. members opposite can claim that their Bantustan policy, their policy leading to sovereign independence can be acceptable. Yes, it is acceptable to some people who are not affected thereby. We have the Afrikaans saying, “Dit is maklik om bree rieme uit ’n ander man se vel te sny.” In the areas where the people are being affected by the Government’s policy, the people are supporting United Party policy. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for East London (North) spoke about economic integration. According to him, every Bantu working in a White area is an example of economic integration. I cannot understand why hon. members opposite should always follow this line of argument. We have approximately 600,000 Bantu working in the mining industry and the vast majority of them come from our neighbouring states. Is there economic integration between our neighbouring states andus because their citizens are working here? This is the question I want to put to the Opposition. Because so many of the people from our neighbouring states are working here, does that mean that those people are now bringing about the integration of the economies of South Africa and those neighbouring states? Are the thousands of Italians who are working in Germany integrated in the German economy? What then is the position in regard to the Spaniards who are working elsewhere? Those are old arguments. That matter has been thrashed out time and again in this House, namely that this is not economic integration. All that is happening is that those people are coming here to perform services, and their services are integrated in our economy, but the workers themselves are not integrated in our economy along with those services. This point we have already argued time and again.

The hon. member also contradicted himself here. He said that many thousands of Bantu were entering the White areas, and in the same breath he said: “We are moving them out from the work here.” Surely, this is a contradiction. Now I want to ask the hon. member whether he is able to mention one case of a Bantu having been removed by the Government from his employment in a White area where such a Bantu was legitimately employed? If he could mention a single case only, I would appreciate it very much, but I do not believe he can.

He tried to make out as though the 5 per cent decrease in the number of Bantu in the Western Cape applied to the whole of South Africa. Because we are decreasing the number of Bantu in the Western Cape by 5 per cent per annum, it does not mean that the Bantu are not available for employment elsewhere in the country. If they do not want to work elsewhere, they may remain in the Bantu areas. Employment can be made available to them in other parts of South Africa.

Actually I am on my feet to deal with the hon. member for Port Natal. He probably does not even know where Lime Hill is. When I was young, I also walked around with a small Winchester rifle and I knew its bark was worse than its bite. I know the hon. member’s bark is also worse than his bite. The hon. member does not have the faintest idea of what has taken place there, apart from the falsehoods he put into my mouth this afternoon. He put an outrageous falsehood in my mouth which he cannot prove, and I challenge him to prove it either here in this House or outside the House or wherever he likes. I shall then deal with him as a Winchester rifle should be dealt with.

I have been there and it is still true.

He said that those people were forced from their areas against their will. I now want to read a letter to you which we received. We receive many letters like this from Bantu. This Bantu ended his letter by writing—

I could give that person’s address too. This is not the only letter we received. Many similar letters have been received by the Commissioner of Bantu Affairs.

The hon. member had that speech of mine at his disposal. I did not place it to his disposal. Where he got it from I do not know, but it does not matter. I am not ashamed of my speeches. It was written out word for word, and he could have read … [Interjections.]

Order! I must warn the hon. member for Port Natal. The hon. member may continue.

He could have read in that speech inter aliathat the only water supply in those black spots was a quarry in which there was a little water covered by green duckweed. That is the kind of water those people living in those black spots would have had to drink. In Lime Hill, where they have been moved now, there is a proper bore hole from which the water is pipelined to a tank. In fact, it first goes to two reservoirs, then to a tank, and then to approximately 20 different points in Lime Hill where the people can fetch their water. Then the hon. member says that Lime Hill was not supplied with water. The water supply at the place from which those people came was a quarry, a quarry covered with green slime. That is the kind of water they had to drink. He and certain priests referred to the sanitary facilities. Let me tell you what the sanitary facilities in that black spot were. The sanitary facilities there consisted of a donga leading to a dam from which the Bantu had to obtain their water during the summer months, when it rained. This fact they do not and will not mention.

In that speech I also pointed out, inter alia, that we had 363 black spots in South Africa. The expression “black spots” means that there was Bantu property in White areas which we cleared up. In that speech I said that we had cleared up 106 of those black spots. More than 75,000 Bantu were moved to the Bantu homelands, where they are living under proper conditions now and where they are being cared for, as the hon. member for Potchefstroom explained. I did not mention the smaller reserves, nor the number of people we moved from there, but it is more than 75,000. More than 100,000 Bantu have been moved from those reserves. This the hon. member disregards.