Mr. Speaker, I move, as an unopposed motion—

1. (a) the hours of sitting on Tuesday, 11th June, and on Thursday, 13th June, shall be—

   2.15 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.

   8 p.m. to 10.30 p.m.;

2. (b) Saturday, 22nd June, shall be a sitting day; and

3. (c) the hours of sitting on each sitting day on and after Monday, 17th June, shall be—

   10 a.m. to 12.45 p.m.

   2.15 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.

   8 p.m. to 10.30 p.m.

Agreed to.

Mr. Speaker, I move, as an unopposed motion—

Agreed to.

As a member of the Oosthuizen Commission of 1954, which investigated pneumoconiosis and silicosis in miners, I feel it is my duty to say that it is a great pleasure to me to-day to read the report of the Miners’ Medical Bureau and to see what a change has taken place during the intervening period. The spirit of the staff which in 1954 was one of lassitude and disinterest seems, according to this report, to have been awakened into what we hope will persist as a feeling of interest in the welfare of the miners. I do not want to be misunderstood as saying that everything is perfect, but I nevertheless feel that with the new Director and the new set-up there has been a considerable improvement. I refer particularly to the lung function testing. It was one of the recommendations of that Commission, that the testing of lung functioning should take place. One of the findings of that Commission was that one of the main reasons for the discontent among miners at that particular period was the fact that some miners would receive compensation at the rate applicable to the third stage while others with what appeared to them to have the same disability, would be told that they could receive no compensation as they were not suffering from pneumoconiosis. The reason, we found at that time, was that there were varieties of lung disability which are not detectable satisfactorily by radiographic examination. For this reason lung function tests were suggested, because the commission had found, as had been realized previously in Great Britain, that the X-ray, whilst an extremely good and reliable test, did not show all forms and did not satisfactorily evaluate all degrees of pulmonary disability in miners. I am only sorry that there seems to be, according to the report, some unwillingness on the part of the miners themselves to undergo a function test, but the arrangements which have been made seem to be satisfactory and I hope that the Bureau will persist so that ultimately the miners will realize how important it is for them to cooperate. I am pleased also to see that there is an investigation into the effect of deep-level mining on the health of those who are employed there, also that an ear, throat and nose specialist has been appointed with a view to helping the miners who have nasal or other disabilities. Here I should like to say that he has been also told to investigate the acuity of hearing of the miners. This is a most important matter and it should be pursued further. It is a well-known fact that many mineworkers, not necessarily under-ground workers, end their lives with a great deal of hearing loss. It is time that this was appreciated. The men should at any rate be protected as far as possible. During their careers they should be warned that the loss is taking place. They should be protected as far as possible and if necessary they should be compensated for that loss. These matters show a spirit that is very welcome.

I am glad to see that Kuruman station has been opened and that it has issued a pamphlet on the control of dust in and around asbestos plants. The keywords here are “in and around”. The Oosthuizen commission found that a certain man who did not work on the mines developed an advanced degree of pneumoconiosis. He worked on the trams which passed the City Deep mine every day and he developed a fairly advanced degree of pneumoconiosis. He was unique, but it is not exceptional to find that people in and near asbestos mines develop asbestosis. Quite an appreciable number of these people have developed asbestosis and even malignant disease which follows asbestosis. Yet they had no connection with mining at all.

This brings me to another question. As we saw in the Sunday Times of yesterday, the aircraft industry is to increase the use of beryllium. If anything beryllium produces more certainly malignant disease of the lungs than does asbestos.

If mining in this country, which must take place, and the aircraft industry and other industries, such as fluorescent lighting industries, are going to continue with the use of beryllium it behaves the Department of Mines to take particular steps to protect the workers in the beryllium mines, and particularly so because according to the article, in America at any rate, most of the mining is hand-mining. The article comes from New York, and as far as one can understand, it is the small particles that cause the trouble. The processing can if necessary be modified. Perhaps the miners can under the circumstances wear respirators. At any rate there is no longer any reason for the department to ignore the fact that beryllium produces malignant disease of the lung in a shorter time than is usual with asbestos.

Mr. Chairman. I should like to refer to what the hon. member for Rosettenville said in regard to the increase in mine accidents. I think the hon. member is making a mistake in saying that there has been an increase in the number of accidents. In a certain respect this is a reflection on the staff of the various mining companies, as well as the Department’s officials who were appointed to supervise mining. I think the hon. member has most probably read the wrong report. Here I have the Mining Statistics Report of 1966, and I want to refer to page 23 of this report. It is pointed out very clearly that there has been an increase in the number of workers on the mines; consequently more accidents can be expected. However, this is of course no criterion. The other aspect which is of importance in the mining industry, is the fact that we have deeper mines nowadays. It is stated in this report that the number of fatal accidents was 739 in 1965, whereas it was 707 in 1966. Where the hon. member for Rosettenville finds an increase, I do not know. In another column in this report it is shown that the death rate per 1,000 per annum was 1.31 in 1965, whereas it was 1.18 in 1966. On the next page there is a graph which clearly indicates that there has been a decrease in the number of accidents per 1,000 persons working on the mines. I therefore want to object to the hon. member’s misrepresentation in connection with the increase in accidents in our mining industry. Along with new developments problems are created and adjustment is essential, and as far as I know this is a very marked trend throughout our mining industry. I say this on the authority of my own experience of the mining industry. South Africa is one of the countries which takes the lead in the world in regard to combating mine accidents, in spite of the fact that we probably have some of the deepest mines in the world. We are constantly trying to prevent mine accidents by means of research.

Sir, I want to elaborate on what the hon. member for Parktown said. In fact, I actually want to associate myself with a few of his ideas. I want to elaborate on a few of the points he mentioned in regard to the processing of our uranium ores, and I must point out that the hon. member for Hillbrow has previously referred to that in the same vein. As far back as 1966 I myself referred to the necessity of our uranium ores being refined locally. The hon. member said: “We must meet the challenge of moving into a new era, and we do not want to be caught on the wrong foot.” In addition he referred to the importance of retaining our scientists, and in this regard I want to refer, just as I have done previously in various debates since I became a member of this House, to the annual report of the Geological Survey Division. Here I have the report of the Geological Survey Division for the year ending 1967, and once again it is very clear that, as I said last year, there is really an indictment contained in this report. I want to draw attention to the importance of this division. It determines the quantitative extent of our natural resources in the Republic as well as South West Africa. At the present moment officials of the Department of Mines are being seconded to South West Africa to carry out the planning of the uses of the resources on a national basis. The Geological Survey Division fulfils an important function in the promotion of the economic welfare of the country. If we want to accept the challenges of the future, much more than merely casual attention will have to be paid to this key department. This chronic phenomenon of a shortage of efficient staff in this division of the Department of Mines is something which, according to this report before the House, still persists. The importance of the mineral industry of which uranium represents a status symbol to-day, is apparent from the fact that the immediate causes of the last world war were psychological and political ones. But these causes had their origins in social conditions, which in turn are influenced by the distribution and control of mineral raw materials. When the use of mineral raw materials is controlled by ethical values, when the marketing benefits everybody and when the processing and benefits of our natural resources are placed at the disposal of everybody, with a common benefit, it may bring about a spiritual disarmament which creates trust, friendship and tolerance, which will prevent future wars. For the sake of this it is, of course, essential that we should in the meantime do everything in our power to broaden our knowledge of geology, the distribution of mineral deposits and the economic aspects thereof. This is essential for vital, intelligent planning for the future. What is required for this purpose, is geological research, along with the branches connected with it. This research paves the way for sound socio-economic planning, and provides our political leaders with guidance for placing the nation of South Africa on a sound and conservative course.

Time and again mention was made here of pneumoconiosis legislation and improving the conditions under which our mineworkers are working. But this research in regard to our mineral deposits concerns the future and the life of the nation of South Africa, and in the light of these circumstances we cannot disregard it. In order to motivate the attitude I adopt, I just want to mention to hon. members that the compilation of a geological map of South West Africa recently called forth a great deal of interest in regions which would otherwise never have received any attention. I do not wish to go into the merits of the question of compiling a geological map of South West Africa, since I was personally involved in the matter. But I just want to point out that it roused so much interest that one of the largest concessions ever granted in South Africa, was the result of this research work and the compilation of this geological map.

Opportunities, a creative urge and imagination constitute a healthy atmosphere for a research institution. Although the opportunity for creative work does exist, it is lacking owing to an inherent shortage of the right staff and consequently of the creative urge and imagination in this key department. These are inherent and fundamental shortcomings of which we have been aware for a very long time.

It was reported in the Press that on the occasion of the opening of the Kloof mine the hon. the Minister recently expressed the wish that a second Witwatersrand might be discovered somewhere. I want to make the statement in this House this afternoon that in view of these chronic phenomena that are evident in the Geological Survey Division, we do not have any hope of bringing about a second Witwatersrand, and I do not only have gold in mind; I also have other metal deposits in mind. Platinum, for instance, is just as important in our mineral industry. If we do not do continuous research work in this regard, we do not have any hope of competing with the rest of the world and maintaining our international status. To my mind the picture of the continuously decreasing staff is actually a very gloomy one if we look at page 26 of the report … [Time expired.]

Now that the National Party has been in power for 20 years, I think it is a good thing for us to place on record this year a few figures to show that the National Party has always had the interests of the worker at heart. Let us, in the first place, take the compensation paid to a married worker who has one child and who has been rendered completely unfit for any further employment owing to pneumoconiosis. The maximum pension to which he was entitled in 1948, was R38.75 per month; at present he is entitled to R114 per month. It is a good thing that we place figures such as these on record for general information. Let us, in the second place, look at the pensions paid to the widows of mineworkers. In 1948 it was R13 per month; at present, after the announcement the hon. the Minister has just made, it is R42 per month. Whereas in 1948 these widows received only R6.50 in respect of each dependent child, they receive R21 at present. The total payments made in respect of pneumoconiosis sufferers in 1938, amounted to R1.6 million in comparison with the amount of R6.6 million paid out this year. As I have said, I mention these few figures for the record, and also to help us to remember that the National Party—apart from smaller points of dissatisfaction which may be found amongst the mineworkers and in respect of which we should have liked to accommodate them if we could—has always had due regard to the interests of the workers.

I should now like to thank the hon. the Minister for having rectified, according to the announcement he has just made, the position of certain persons in terms of section 94 (1) of the 1962 Act. The hon. the Minister will recall that I raised this matter in 1966 on behalf of the persons concerned, i.e. the fact that the total amount of any pension awarded to a person who was remunerated on a monthly basis, may not exceed the amount of that person’s highest monthly earnings. In 1966 there were still 133 of these people. I do not know how many there are at the moment, but on their behalf I want to thank the hon. the Minister for having rectified this matter, which I regard as having been an injustice to them.

Another matter I should like to discuss here, is the question of miner’s diseases in general. At the moment, in terms of existing legislation, pneumoconiosis is the only disease in respect of which compensation is paid to a mineworker. Admittedly, certain concessions are being made to mineworkers in respect of tuberculosis, for instance the fact that such persons receive a certain amount of money and are allowed a certain period for convalescence, but then their red cards disappear and they cannot return to their work. There are in addition certain circumstances under which mineworkers can be compensated in terms of the Workmen’s Compensation Act, such as in the case of skin diseases. But the mineworkers feel that they have a very strong case for certain other diseases being declared to be industrial diseases. In this regard the following diseases are mentioned in particular: chronic bronchitis, emphysema, arthritis and certain heart diseases. I am quite aware of the fact that the mine management’s reply is simply that people who never go underground can also contract these very same diseases. That is why these diseases cannot be regarded as industrial diseases for which the mine management is to be held responsible.

Although I accept this, there are nevertheless a few factors which we should not overlook in this regard. In the first place I think an investigation should be made with a view to determining whether the incidence of diseases of this nature is more widespread amongst mineworkers than it is amongst the rest of the population. Should it be found that this disease is of more frequent occurrence amongst mineworkers than amongst the rest of the population, or even that it occurs to the same extent, then there is to my mind justification for a thorough investigation into the possibility of declaring these diseases to be industrial diseases. Those who know the circumstances under which mineworkers do their work, know that those circumstances are conducive to many of these diseases being contracted. Just think, for instance, of cases where workers have to work underground at depths of more than two miles and where rock temperatures are sometimes as high as 107 degrees fahrenheit. Of course, major advances. have been made in regard to our cooling techniques; thousands of tons of ice are being manufactured in refrigerating plants every day, and air is blown over this ice in order to bring down the temperature. This is true, but these people who work underground are nevertheless working under extremely difficult circumstances, circumstances which are definitely conducive to quite a number of the diseases to which I referred being contracted. A mineworker is sometimes expected to work in water up to his waist and to go on with his work once he is out of the water; he is expected to work in places where the temperatures are high and then again in cold passages where temperatures are kept low by means of air-conditioning. To my mind these and other circumstances justify our taking another look at these diseases. Something which should not be overlooked, is that a mineworker has to pass a fitness test before he can work on the mines. Therefore he cannot be suffering from a weak heart, chronic bronchitis or emphysema; if he does he would not be permitted to work as a mineworker. That is why I say that even if the percentage incidence of this disease is the same amongst mineworkers as it is amongst the rest of the public, the mineworker should nevertheless be placed in a special position in view of the fact that he was a healthy man before he started working as a mineworker. Consequently I wonder whether the time has not arrived for us to appoint a commission of experts, a commission consisting, inter alia, of medical men, to determine whether the incidence of these diseases is more extensive amongst mineworkers than it is amongst the rest of the population, to what extent work on the mines is conducive to the contraction of diseases and to what extent mineworkers should be accommodated in that regard. This is one of the matters about which our mineworkers feel unhappy. Whereas we can appreciate the attitude adopted by the mine management, this is nevertheless a matter which can only be settled in one way, namely by appointing a commission of experts to enquire specifically into this matter.

In the few minutes I still have at my disposal, I want to touch upon another matter, and in this respect I want to come back to the United Party. It must not be said that I am trying to make a political issue out of this matter, but in the course of this debate last year, something was said which apparently passed unnoticed at the time, but is nevertheless something which should not have passed unnoticed. I am referring to a speech made by the hon. member for Karoo in which he asked, inter alia, for a course in mining and engineering to be introduced for Coloureds at the Western Cape University College. He wanted to know why the hon. the Minister had made no provision for assistance to that university college so that it might offer these courses. He went on to say (translation)—

And what is the gist?—

I think it is necessary for us to take cognizance of this attitude of the hon. member for Karoo, a member of the U.P. caucus. In public, in this House, he said that he had nothing against the fact that the workers in the mining industry would not necessarily remain white workers. That was what the strike of 1922 was about; on account of that the mineworkers made enormous sacrifices. I think it is a good thing for us to take cognizance of the fact that members of the United Party are still thinking in that direction at this stage.

The hon. member who has just sat down, said that he did not want to bring politics into this debate, but he then proceeded to do so.

No, I only stated the facts.

He started off his speech by telling us what the mineworkers earned in 1948 in comparison with what they earned to-day …

No, I said nothing about their wages.

… or rather he compared the compensation that they received. Sir, he said nothing about the depreciation in the value of money over the last 20 years that his party has been in power, nor did he talk about the increase in the cost of living over that period. He was strangely silent on those two aspects. Moreover, he did not give us any figures either for the period up to 1933 when his party was in power. He was silent on that aspect too. Sir, I think one can discount the propaganda which he made here this afternoon. He obviously wanted it in Hansard so that he can show that he was doing his job as propaganda chief of his party.

Then he can quote himself.

I want to take up with the hon. the Minister a far more serious matter which affects far more people. In reply to a question on the 14th May in regard to the farm Boschhoek in the Dundee area, the hon. the Minister fold me that prospecting licences had been given on this farm. This farm Boschhoek was a Bantu-owned farm and it has now been taken over by the State. The interesting thing is that the agreed figure of R251,000, which the State was to pay the Bantu for this farm, has at this date not yet been paid. The other interesting aspect is that the Bantu who have been moved from that farm, have not received title deeds in respect of the farm to which they have been sent. Sir, that is all by the way. What does fall under this Minister, of course, is the fact that before those Bantu were moved out of their homes, prospecting plates were put on the various plots on this farm, right next to the houses occupied by the Bantu. I would like the hon. the Minister to tell me what notification was given that this ground was being opened for prospecting purposes. Was this fact advertised so that the public could know that they could apply for licences to prospect on this farm?

Where did you get your information from?

I got this information on the 14th May in reply to a question. The Minister gave me the names of the people who hold the prospecting licences, and in reply to a question put by the hon. member for Rosettenville, the Minister said he was unable to tell us how it came about that these permits were issued and why no notification was given. I raise this question here this afternoon because I would like to know how the public can be informed when an area is opened for prospecting and particularly how these particular persons were informed so that they could apply for licences to prospect on this ground. I would also like to know why the prospectors were allowed to put up prospecting pegs on land which was still occupied by the Bantu. Then I should like to know whether the figure of compensation for this farm takes into account the possibility that precious metals or base minerals might be found on this farm. Surely there was an indecent haste in this whole matter. The hon. the Minister need not look at me like that. I repeat that there was an indecent haste in this matter. The Bantu were still occupying the houses on the farm when white prospectors were allowed to put their pegs into the ground. I say to the hon. the Minister that this was a disgrace and that it has caused deep hurt to the Bantu concerned. I ask the hon. the Minister therefore in all seriousness if he can tell me how this came about because one is left with the suspicion, which may be unwarranted, that these Bantu were evicted from this ground because somebody felt that it might be a prosperous area for mining or prospecting. Sir, I would like the Minister to give me his replies to this question in detail because they affect a great many people.

Along with the hon. member for Randfontein I, too, want to express my personal appreciation for the considerable improvements that were announced in respect of the dependants of pneumoconiosis sufferers. I do not know why some members take exception when the hon. member for Randfontein indicates how progressive improvements have been effected in regard to compensation for mineworkers. You know, Mr. Chairman, how difficult it is to do a good deed. The quickest way of making a name for oneself, is to commit a crime; then one’s physiognomy is depicted in every newspaper in South Africa. But good deeds, even the good deeds of a government, are very seldom accorded the favourable publicity they merit.

I take great pleasure in associating myself with every word said here by the hon. member for Randfontein. But what is more important, is the fact that he also insisted on an inquiry in regard to diseases which are prevalent in this industry and in respect of which no compensation is paid as yet. We have been making representations in this regard for many years, and I hope that in the near future these representations will be responded to. I want to associate myself wholeheartedly with these representations, and I believe that every member in this House will do so, even hon. members of the Opposition. If ever there have been representations which deserve the support of the whole Committee, then it is these representations. I should like to point out that a few cries of despair in regard to the mining industry were voiced in this House last year. I warned against them and said that there was no need for cries of despair to be voiced in regard to the mining industry and, more specifically, the gold-mining industry. The unfounded fear was expressed here that the life of the mining industry, especially the gold-mining industry, would not be a very long one.

Mr. Chairman, nobody wants to be a prophet, but from my own experience of the mining industry I can tell you, Sir, that the gold-mining industry will still be there when none of us are left in this House. For that reason, and for that reason in particular, we should not allow the idea to take root that the life of the mining industry is a short one, and that we consequently do not care about the future of the mineworkers. For that reason in particular we must not only pay special attention to investigating industrial diseases, but also to combating them. A very great deal can be done in the mining industry to curb the incidence of miner’s diseases effectively, i.e. not only phthisis, but also other diseases. When we talk about industrial diseases in the mines, phthisis still remains the most important one. I maintain that year after year the mining industry—and this is the responsibility of the Government Mining Engineer—should be in a position to report that progress is being made in regard to incidence of dust. I am not concerned about the incidence of dust above-ground; I am referring to the incidence of dust which causes silicosis in the mines. This does, of course, present a major problem to the mining industry; all of us realize that, but silicosis gives rise to many diseases which have not been recognized as yet. For instance, here we are dealing with the incidence of tuberculosis.

We are told that tuberculosis is a disease which is also found amongst people who have never worked on the mines. We know that; but we also know, if we allow ourselves to be guided by medical science, that once a person has had dust in his lungs, he is so much more susceptible to tuberculosis. I see my hon. friend over there nodding assent, and this is true.

The greatest authority on tuberculosis the world as yet produced, the late Dr. Watkins Pickford, told us that it was the most infectious disease in the whole world and the one that was most difficult to combat and eradicate because at a temperature of 100°Celcius, which is boiling point, the tuberculosis germ could still remain alive for 20 minutes. Now we must realize that the mining industry is called upon to pay special attention to the combating of those diseases, and we are grateful for the fact that medical science has progressed to such an extent that this disease can in fact be combated and cured at present. This is one of the most gladdening tidings we have heard for many years in regard to the combating of that disease, i.e. that it can be combated so effectively to-day that one can recover from it.

But I think everybody will agree with me that the prevention of this disease is much better than the cure. That is why we want to urge that precautionary measures for healthy conditions in the mines should be aimed in particular at silicosis which may subsequently cause tuberculosis, and that in that regard we should take more effective action in the future. That is why I want to emphasize that the dust should be laid, for this is not only the cause of one disease, but of many. I want to lay particular emphasis on this aspect to-day, and I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister, even though he might not have found it necessary in the past, to speak to the Government Mining Engineer and to tell him that dust in the mines should, if possible, be combated even more effectively in future. You must not expect me to be satisfied with the reply that this is in fact being done.

I would only be satisfied if the Government Mining Engineer submitted to me a schedule indicating what the dust content in the mines was over a period of 10 years and that it has now been reduced to such and such an extent. Only then will it be possible for us to say that we are now combating that deadly dust in the mines effectively, but in the absence of such proof we are fooling ourselves if we talk about the combating of a disease without being able to prove in this House that the elementary cause of that disease is in fact being combated. That is what I want to urge very strongly to-day. If by next year we are able to report good progress in regard to the combating of dust, we shall have progressed a great deal towards safeguarding the health of our people in the mining industry. I emphasize the point that the mineworkers are not so pessimistic as to think that the gold-mining industry in particular will come to an end soon.

We must prepare ourselves for many more years of mining development, and we must prepare ourselves for many more years of new discoveries. That is why it is the duty of all of us to look after the future of those young South Africans whom we want to work in the mines, and who would go to the mines if they see that the conditions existing in the mines are also receiving the attention of the employers as such and not only that of the State. It remains the pre-eminent duty of the employers in the mining industry to comply with these requirements, which I have now tried to bring prominently to the notice of the Minister.

I am grateful to be able to participate in this debate once again this afternoon, and I am grateful for the standard maintained and for the fact that this matter has been discussed on such a high level. When we speak about the miner and his circumstances and about mining as a whole, I think that both sides of the House are agreed that we should obtain the best possible conditions for these people that can be obtained in any industry. And when I speak about the miner, I am speaking about all the workers, from the general manager down to the lowest-paid person in that industry. I want to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the hon. the Minister and to thank him for the concessions he has made to the dependants of pneumoconiosis sufferers and also to the persons who have contracted this dreaded disease. I want to thank him very much.

You know, Sir, every person cherishes an ideal and all of us who have come here, probably cherished the ideal of coming to Parliament, and once you have come here, you have a further ideal that you cherish. Some members may want to become Ministers and perhaps even have the idea of becoming Prime Minister one day, but I cherish one ideal in life and that is to do as much as possible on behalf of the miners. Where I can assist, with the support of my colleagues, in alleviating the burden of these people who have contracted this dreaded disease, I shall always be prepared to do so.

It is the most fervent wish of my life to assist these people when they have contracted miner’s phthisis—let us call a spade a spade—or tuberculosis, or are crippled by rheumatism, so that they can be free of anxiety during the last days of their lives. They will have to endure pain and sorrow, but I want to see to it that they will be financially independent because the State or the mining industry will care for them. After all, this is probably the industry which makes the greatest contribution to our national economy to-day. It is the industry in connection with which we cherish the hope that the price of gold will be increased in the future and that many of the marginal mines will be able to continue in existence, so that a bright future will be in store for the mining industry. But I am making this request to the hon. the Minister, himself a medical man and still a young man in the prime of his life. Since 1911, as we heard from the hon. member for Virginia, this Act has been amended 17 times. Let us harbour no illusions. I want to thank the hon. member for Springs for the fine explanation which he gave on Friday in regard to the certifying of pneumoconiosis. The miner is dissatisfied about that to-day; let us not evade the issue. Therefore I ask the Minister to appoint a commission of inquiry to see if we cannot find a solution to this problem once and for all, because the miner does not understand this percentage system, of 20 per cent and then again from 20 per cent to 50 per cent, and from 50 per cent to 75 per cent, and from 75 per cent upwards. He simply says: “I have contracted this disease and the death sentence has been passed upon me. No doctor in the world can cure me.” If the price of gold is increased one day, I hope that both the Chamber of Mines and the State will do everything in their power to assist persons who are suffering from this dreaded disease, so that they need not worry about where to obtain their daily bread.

I want to return to the hon. member for Rosettenville, who also spoke about the monthly wage system. This matter actually falls under the hon. the Minister of Labour, but I nevertheless want to express my gratitude for the system which came into operation a year ago. There are certain anomalies which still have to be eliminated. I can assure the House that that agreement is probably one of the best which has ever been concluded as far as the mining industry is concerned. It is to the benefit of both the workers and the mine-owners. The young man who begins to work in the mines knows that when he reaches 60 years of age he will receive a living pension. Through the hon. the Minister of Mines I thank the hon. the Minister of Labour very sincerely for that.

Mention was made here of working conditions and the many accidents which occur in our mines. I want to compliment and thank the mine-owners and mineworkers for the stringent safety measures which are applied in our mines. Hon. members must not become pessimistic about the accidents which occur. If there is any industry which is extremely careful and which does everything in its power to ensure the safety of employees, it is the mining industry. Unfortunately accidents still occur. Why? Because the miner and the mine-owner are expected to produce twice as much as 10 or 15 years ago. At to-day’s rate of production it will take at the most half as long to work a mine out as it took years ago, and under these circumstances one can expect a considerable number of accidents to occur. I believe, however, that everything possible is being done to make the work as safe as possible. I want to thank all the Departments who are assisting in maintaining the safety of our miners at as high a level as possible. They are doing their utmost and the safety measures are the best possible.

My time is running short, and there is a last request that I want to make to the hon. the Minister. Bursaries are made available for the children of widows and pneumoconiosis sufferers to go to university. The bursaries are made available by the State, the Chamber of Mines and the Pneumoconiosis Council. However, the requirement is laid down that the students can only take up a certain career. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the trend of this debate has been the health of our miners and the incidence of pneumoconiosis, and one wonders whether we would have had the position which we have to-day had more attention been paid to these matters in the past. The hon. member for Krugersdorp quite rightly said prevention was better than cure, and there is no doubt that if the relevant laws and regulations could be better applied by both sides, the position may be improved. I feel that both sides of the House are agreed that the more stringent application of the applicable legislation could improve the position. It is tragic to think that mineworkers still have to face the great danger which is facing them to-day, and it is necessary that they should be paid adequate compensation. In this regard I want to cross swords with the hon. member for Randfontein. He said certain things here, and I want to put the record straight.

Invariably improved working conditions or improved compensation have been inspired from this side of the House. The hon. member for Randfontein knows that hon. members opposite dare not get up here and plead for better wages or working conditions. They may do that in their caucus but not here. It is on record that proposals on those lines always emanate from this side of the House. I want to put the record straight as regards the past 20 years. The hon. member can tell his voters that the Government, with the United Party, improved the working conditions of the mineworkers, but the inspiration came from the United Party. The hon. member must admit that. That is the correct record. [Interjections.]

I should like to get back to the Vote. We are pleased to see the Government are at last taking note of the position of our dying mines and that it has been possible to induce the hon. the Minister of Finance to give them R82 million. We will shortly have a Bill before us dealing with that subject. Mining does not begin and end with gold mines. If we read the Annual Reports of the Government Mining Engineer and of the Geological Survey we find the Reports cover a very much wider field. We have other minerals being mined in this country and they are facing certain difficulties, difficulties in respect of marketing. We find that with the very high cost of railage to the coast our iron ore and manganese mines are suffering as a result. According to a newspaper report the Deputy General Manager of Railways said the following, referring to the transport of export minerals by pipeline—

He gave us some interesting figures regarding the cost of conveyance in Australia—

Here then is a plea that our ore should be conveyed as economically as possible to our ports. The Minister of Mines should give his attention to this problem. We have our dying gold mines which might get a new lease of life if the gold price is increased. We also have the very wealthy hinterland of ores. We have to see how they can be mined economically, and if they are exported in their raw state we must export them as cheaply as possible in order to keep those mines alive, otherwise we will have other dying mines. I think that is something the Minister must keep in mind.

I should like to come to the question of oil research. In the report mention is made of inland research. In the Minister’s maiden speech as Minister of Mines, he said that inland research would possibly end in 1969 and that new decisions would have to be made as to how far we would go. At the present moment I see that we are down to two lease drills. It is essential for this country that we do everything in our power to try to discover oil in this country. I think that the hon. the Minister should let us know exactly what the Government’s policy is in regard to further research. Some of these very expensive drills which we have had on lease, have possibly been returned overseas. If, however, they have not, we should like to see them retained in this country, so that further research can be undertaken inland. I think it is generally accepted by people in the oil industry all over the world to-day, that the future supplies of oil will be found off-shore. They are finding very much more oil in the sea than they are finding on land. We would like to hear from the hon. the Minister what is happening there and what progress has been made as far as off-shore drilling is concerned. With all the research that is going on, it is disappointing to read the section of the report where it is stated that the Director of the Geological Survey made representations to the Public Service Commission for better conditions for his staff which have been rejected. He said that his section, like other departments, was suffering as a result mainly of poor pay and service conditions. When one reads the report and sees the resignations, and one notes what staff he has at the present moment, I think it is a matter which the hon. the Minister has to consider seriously. There has to be some revision in the pay scales and conditions. One cannot continually say that we cannot compete with commerce. What really happens is that the Government has to hire agencies from commerce to do the job for them. They then have to pay twice as much. Surely we must wake up to that fact and review the salary scales. The inland and the off-shore search for oil in this country is most essential for the lifeblood of this country. It is necessary for the Government to go out of its way to see whether it cannot retain the scientists whom we train at very great expense. We must retain them here in our service, because we are not really saying anything by allowing them to go. If we want development to continue, we have to hire outside agencies and pay them two or three times as much. Therefore we may as well pay our own men a decent salary and retain those services for the State. These are the items I would like the hon. the Minister to give his attention to, and I should like to hear his views on these matters.

Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes at my disposal, I should very much like to bring a certain matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister. It concerns the lot of a group of diggers who live in my constituency. A few years ago we made a survey, and then the total number of bona fide diggers was between 300 and 400, with an average age of about 57 years. Since then the number has decreased, and according to the latest statistics I obtained from the mining office in Barkly West, there are at present about 225 bona fide diggers there. These people have been on the diggings throughout their lives. New digging licences are no longer being issued. Therefore, it is naturally a problem which will solve itself in time. But these people can do nothing else. They have lived their whole lives on the diggings. They are diggers to the core. Now the problem is to obtain land for these people. We know that there is land which could surely have been deproclaimed, but because the diggers cling to it because of a lack of additional land, it is impossible to deproclaim it. We know that we cannot expect the impossible. But now we know that there is land which may possibly become available for them. I am referring to the locations at Smitsdrif, which have now been evacuated. The Bantu have been removed from there. The diggers are pleading for it. They are asking that ground be proclaimed for them so that they can dig there. I want to plead their case very seriously with the hon. the Minister. I want to point out to him that, even if we can make land available for the next 10 or 12 years to these 225 bona fide diggers where they can dig, this problem will solve itself in the course of time because no new licences are being issued. Therefore we want to ask that the hon. the Minister give very serious attention to the representations which the Diggers Advisory Council made to him directly, and that he will consider setting aside that ground, which is now becoming available, and earmark it for those diggers, so that they can make a proper living. We know that if he does so, we cannot expect more. I think it would be a big step forward to rehabilitate these diggers. It will possibly be a deliverance for them.

Mr. Chairman, we are all aware of the fact that the mining industry makes a major contribution to the Treasury. In 1948 the contribution to the gross domestic product was 10 per cent. In 1965 it was 12.2 per cent. To-day the mining industry stands third on the list of contributions made to the gross domestic product. I am proud to be able to state that platinum is also making an important contribution to the mining industry. My constituency is an area where platinum is mined, and the largest platinum mine in the world is situated just outside the town. There are no less than 1,750 white miners working in that mine. There is also a second platinum mine, namely Union Platinum, with more than 300 white miners. Union Corporation is now developing the Impala Mine, where between 400 and 500 white miners will be employed. It is remarkable that the Impala Mine is being planned in collaboration with the I.D.C., which will hold 10 per cent of the shares in the mine. Virtually all the equipment and machinery which will be used in the refineries for refining purposes, will be produced in South Africa. Only a few items of highly complicated machinery will have to be imported from overseas. In other words, the platinum industry alone in Rustenburg will have more than 2,500 white mine-workers in its employ. I am grateful to be able to state that, notwithstanding the fact that these mines fall under the Pneumoconiosis Compensation legislation of 1962, there was only one case of pneumoconiosis contracted by a miner who had not worked on other mines in the past. In other words, the danger of pneumoconiosis is very slight. Therefore I do not ask for a sub-medical bureau. On the contrary, what will be of great importance to this area, especially since the platinum industry is so dynamic, will be a research institute. I am convinced that the mine-workers who deal with the mining of platinum, are indeed exposed to other industrial diseases. In Rustenburg, where I move among my constituents a great deal, we find ourselves faced with the problem that the medical aid funds to which the people belong, are not sufficient to allow them to have the necessary medical treatment. We find this on all mines. Unfortunately the position is such that the medical aid societies do not receive any contributions from the employers. This is in contrast with other industries, where the employers normally make a contribution. I feel strongly about this matter, and I think it should not be made a bargaining point. If the hon. the Minister, who is a doctor, and who is infused with the idea of having the miner live a more healthy life, can ensure that this aspect will not be a bargaining point, and if employers were to make the same contributions as mine-owners do in the case of pneumoconiosis, I believe that it would prove to be of great value to the miners. We in South Africa want to have greater productivity. If the health of our miner is not looked after, it is impossible to have this productivity in the interests of our nation.

Mr. Chairman, in the first place I want to express my gratitude to the 13 hon. members on both sides of the House who participated in this debate for the general spirit which prevailed. It not only testified to the thorough knowledge on the part of hon. members of the circumstances prevailing amongst the people they represent, but also to the marked seriousness and interest with which they approached the matters relating to mine-workers and the mining industry. It is gratifying to see that we have at least progressed so far that, when we are dealing with human lives and with dangerous conditions under which people have to work, as well as with those who have been left behind as a result of certain industrial diseases, we were able to discuss these matters in this spirit. I also find the appreciation expressed in regard to the pneumoconiosis concessions announced, and legislation which will in the near future be submitted to this House gratifying. I can only say that it is with great pleasure that I have been able to do this at least, particularly in the case of widows and dependents, and in other cases where the position was an unequitable one owing to the fact that payments were not equal when they ought to have been equal. There were also a small number of people who, several years ago were not earning very much, but it has now as a result of this legislation been made possible for them to receive better payments. I must say that these concessions which have been made emanated from three sources in particular. The first was the desire which this Government has always manifested to lend assistance where it is possible to do so. Nor can I omit to mention that it originated from representations which were made by representatives of the miners, i.e. the Mine Workers’ Union, and these were presented in such a way, particularly during the time in which we had to deal with inflation, that it testified to a sense of responsibility. If representations for increased benefits for their people are presented in this way, I feel that we will in future be able to co-operate in a very fruitful fashion. I want to place on record today my gratitude and appreciation for the way in which the Mine Workers’ Union has up to now conducted its negotiations with me in regard to this matter. In the third place, they originated very strongly and definitely out of the repeated and very clear representations which were made by members of this House who represent constituencies in which there are mining activities. I think that it is not realized sufficiently by the mine-workers or by other persons that it is not only the speeches made in this House, but that it is more particularly those discussions and consultations in committee and in groups and the caucuses which ultimately result in these steps being taken. I do not think that this should ever be underestimated, and I should like to place this on record, so that it stands there for all to see.

The hon. member for Rosettenville introduced this debate and brought several matters to the fore. The first point he mentioned was the question of certification and research. In this he was followed at a very high level by several hon. members, for example the hon. member for Geduld, who spoke medical language in a way which was not only understandable to everyone in this House, but which dealt with aspects which we after all believe should be brought forward in a debate such as this. The hon. member for Virginia mentioned this question, as well as the hon. member for Durban (Central), the hon. member for Stilfontein and others. I want to ask hon. members not to expect me to reply to each one of them specifically, for I would rather discuss these matters in their broader perspective.

Firstly, I want to discuss the question of pneumoconiosis certification and the question of research.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville inquired about a possible obstruction in the field of research as far as pneumoconiosis is concerned.

*Mr. Chairman, let me say at once that I cannot accept this. There is a pneumoconiosis research unit, as hon. members know, which froms part of the C.S.I.R., but which is stationed in Johannesburg. I not only had the privilege of opening it, I also have had the privilege of visiting it on more than one occasion. Generally speaking I want to say that both the bureau and the pneumoconiosis research unit are rendering a service to the department and the Chamber of Mines, but this is all being done on behalf of the miners. The medical practitioners at the Bureau and the research institute, as well as the research workers there, are not instructed in any way by either the mining industry or the department. It is not necessary for me to say that a scientist or a professional officer, such as the doctors at the Bureau, who are people whose aim it is to do their best for the patient and who are worth their salt, will never tolerate anything like that. But for the sake of the record let me state this very emphatically again here to-day, and I want this to be made as public as possible, although it is not really necessary to say this, that not one of the doctors at the Bureau or the research institute allow themselves to be influenced in their findings or in their research by other consideration than the interests of the patients with whom they are dealing. They may under no circumstances— and I know that they do not do this—take into account the fact that it may possibly result in increased costs either for the industry or for the Government. The exclusive approach is, and must always be, that what each mine-worker deserves, provided he is suffering from pneumoconiosis, within the framework of the legislation, must not be withheld from him, regardless of the costs involved to the State or to the mining industry. I want, in the first place, to make that very clear.

The second point that was raised, was the problem in regard to certification. I must say that I have a great deal of sympathy, particularly in regard to the fact that it is difficult for the general public to understand and accept precisely what the position is, particularly if one is in the difficult situation of having possibly contracted pneumoconiosis. I can understand that it is a very difficult matter to understand fully, and in certain circumstances, to accept fully.

I now want to furnish the following figures, simply to indicate to you the magnitude of this task, and how many people, each one of them a person, an individual, with a responsibility and a family, are concerned in this matter. During the past four years the average number of first examinations made was approximately 9,500. Annually between 50,000 and 54,000 periodical examinations are made. Approximately 18,000 benefit examinations are made annually. Approximately 2,500 postmortems are carried out. I am simply mentioning these figures to indicate to hon. members how closely the examination tie up with the individuals and of what magnitude the task which is being undertaken by the Bureau and the undertakings concerned is. At present there are 5,794 white miners, 5,084 white women, 3,016 white children, 472 Coloured men, 348 Coloured women and 797 Coloured children who are receiving compensation.

I then come to the plea, made in regard to certification and the revision of the pneumoconiosis Act, for a commission of inquiry. Let me say at once that I think a reasonably good case has been made out here. In addition let me say that I have taken thorough cognisance of the fact that hon. members on this side of the House in particular, such as the hon. member for Stilfontein, Virginia, Geduld and others, feel that such a commission should in fact be appointed in order to undertake an investigation of such an extensive nature. I also assume that this arises from the fact that the Act has been in operation in its present form for several years now, and that it is felt that the time has come for us to reconsider it. I may add that the Mineworkers’ Union, through their representatives, have also made this clear on every possible occasion. I have up to now had three or four interviews with them. I have also availed myself of the opportunity of visiting them in their own offices. I think that this is necessary, because if you work with people, you must know under what conditions they are working. I then recommended that a deputation of the Mineworkers’ Union should conduct an interview with the hon. the Prime Minister, at which I would also be present. Let me say at once that it is not the custom, as hon. members know, for a Prime Minister to agree readily to grant such an interview. However, I felt myself quite at liberty to recommend this to the hon. the Prime Minister, and attended the interview because the hon. the Prime Minister also represents a constituency which is situated on the Witwatersrand. I think it is a good thing that attention should be focused, at the highest Government level, on the interests of the mine-workers, the interests of whom we may not underestimate. At that interview the representatives of the Mineworkers’ Union lent very strong support to the plea also made by hon. members for a Commission of Inquiry.

However, I find myself in a difficult position—and I must be quite honest with hon. members—in that I am really not entirely convinced that it is in the interests of the person who must ultimately receive the compensation if he is entitled to it for such a comprehensive investigation to be instituted at this stage. I therefore want to ask hon. members to accept my assurance, in the spirit in which it is being extended, that I have taken cognizance of the very strong demand which exists for a Commission of Inquiry. I will not presumptuously undertake to say that a commission will in fact be appointed, but I foresee that we will discuss this matter again with the representatives of the Mineworkers’ Union. Naturally I shall return to the hon. the Prime Minister before I approach the Cabinet, and I can assure hon. members that I will bear these pleas of theirs very much in mind.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville raised a few other matters. In dealing with the monthly pay scheme he said that perhaps all was not well with the system, and he wanted to know whether there were difficulties. He then referred to the introduction of an industrial council and to a possible disruption of productivity. I want to say to the hon. member that I do not for one moment question his good intentions, but one must be very careful in the position in which one finds oneself as a Member of Parliament not to refer lightly to these matters in the terms used by the hon. member.

*We are to-day experiencing peace amongst the ranks of the mineworkers; to-day we at least have an understanding and a relationship between employer on the one hand and employee on the other, a relationship which has brought peace and quiet, which is a different situation to the one we had two years ago, and I feel that we must do nothing to disturb this in any way. I also want to say to the hon. member that since I took over this portfolio, I have adopted the standpoint very strongly that there should be clear lines of demarcation in regard to the responsibilities of the Minister of Mines. Matters such as the pay scheme, the creation of something akin to an industrial board, and other matters which deal with labour I am not prepared to have the Department of Mines involved in; that is the domain of the Department of Labour. I have the full support and co-operation of the representatives of the mineworkers in this regard. Secondly, pleas were also raised here in regard to the question of mining tax. Representations were made here to the effect that if the price of gold should be increased, the taxes should not be such that the gold mines would be prejudiced as a result. In this regard I only want to say that the Government has in this regard shown its bona fides beyond any doubt, and has also done so with the legislation which is still upon the Table, namely the proposed improved formula in regard to the marginal profit mines. It is the fixed policy of the Government, particularly with a view to the possible increase in the gold price, to offer the marginal profit mines the opportunity of remaining in operation as long as possible, and the legislation is already upon the Table. But in this regard I want to say that the question of taxes and the question of the price of gold are fields into which I as Minister of Mines do not want to venture because it is the task and the function of my colleague, the Minister of Finance, with this exception—I would like the mining industry to know this; in fact, I have conveyed this to them on the occasion of discussions—that I do in fact see it as my task to look after the interests of the mining industry in all its forms, including the question of taxes, and that my door is open at all times to the mining industry. They can bring their representations to me, and I shall then support their representations, according to merit, and convey them to the Minister of Finance who is the responsible Minister in respect of taxation, because it should be the task of the Minister of Mines to see to it that the mining industry is so sound, financially and otherwise, that the people who have to earn their bread out of that industry, will always be ensured of a decent subsistence.

Then, thirdly, I just want to refer to uranium, and the international aspects thereof, as well as to nuclear power. This is another field into which I as Minister of Mines do not want to venture; it is a field which is dealt with by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and quite rightly so I think.

In addition certain pleas were made in regard to railage and transport matters. I shall most certainly take up this matter, if it is in the interests of the mining industry, with my colleague, the Minister of Transport, because I think that this is also a matter which is in our charge. In order to complete the picture I also want to refer to the question of soil conservation, particularly in regard to surface mining activities. This is the task of the Minister of Agriculture. We are at present conducting negotiations to see whether we cannot effect an improvement in this regard. When it comes to mining in the Coloured and the Bantu areas, this is a matter which belongs exclusively to my colleagues, the Minister of Coloured Affairs and the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development respectively. But we are, and we must always remain the watchdog in that respect as well in order to ensure the best utilization of the mining possibilities in the Republic.

Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to state our policy approach very clearly. I want to assure hon. members that in regard to all these matters the Department of Mines will in fact adopt a watchful attitude in regard to other Departments in order to protect the interests of the mining industry in the Republic.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville also referred to the accident rate on the mines. He described it as a shocking accident rate and said he was not so sure that everything possible was being done by the management to ensure that the accident rate was as low as possible. The hon. member for Stilfontein has already dealt with this matter, but may I just add that I am quite convinced that a vast amount of research is being done to keep the accident rate as low as possible and to determine the underlying causes of accidents on the mines. May I also point out to the hon. member that all accidents, from the smallest scratch on the finger to an accident which results in death, which have to be reported under the Mines and Works Act, are investigated to determine the underlying causes, and if we have a very large number of accidents, we must not forget that the very trivial accidents are also included in those figures. Apart from the investigations carried out by the Government Mining Engineer and his staff, there is a prevention of accidents committee which continuously and actively concerns itself with this type of research. All the interested parties, including Government Departments, are represented on this committee. Conditions underground are unnatural and factors such as heat, artificial lighting and others play a role. Mineworkers are examined regularly and physical fitness, or the lack of it, does not play a very important part in this aspect. As far as can be ascertained alcohol does not play a role in mine accidents. The use of alcohol in the mines, as is well known, is not allowed, of course, and if a mineworker should report for duty while under the influence of liquor, he would be sent away immediately. It is interesting to note that most accidents occur between 10 a.m. and 11 a.m., i.e. during the period when operations are at their peak. Research, both as regards the underlying causes of accidents and improved methods of prevention, is continuing and will be continued in our mining industry as long as accidents occur. I am quite convinced that both the authorities and the mine owners do a vast amount to see to it that the accident rate is kept down to the minimum.

*In addition the hon. member, and others as well, raised the question of sinkholes here. The hon. member stated that a tremendous eruption of gas had taken place at Westonaria. I am not aware that the position is as bad as he made it out to be.

†The hon. member was good enough to send me certain pamphlets which set out various methods of tracing sink holes. May I say to the hon. member that these have been examined and tested over the past two years. The mining companies have considered them and the C.S.I.R. has done experimental work, but the results were negative and it is not considered advisable to spend more money on the techniques involved. That is the position notwithstanding the excellent articles dealing with this matter which appear from time to time.

*In regard to the question of oil, I should like to draw hon. members’ attention to a statement which I would like to make in this regard, because I think it is necessary for me to furnish this information I can state that an acceleration in the exploration programme in the Republic has been effected during the past year. An intensive and scientific search was launched, in co-ordination with the Geological Survey Section, Government Departments and other holders of prospecting leases for crude oil. This search has really gained momentum, as I shall indicate.

The fact that Soekor has joined the search has had an activating influence on prospecting in other prospecting lease areas, and was directly responsible for an accelerated and comprehensive exploration attempt in Zululand, in the first instance by the Zululand Oil Exploration Company, or ZOE, as it is known, and subsequently by Gulf Oil Exploration. In the prospecting territory of H.M. Mining and Exploration Company, in the district of Port Elizabeth and adjacent districts, first Soekor and then a capable Canadian firm, Syracuse Oils, undertook prospecting work. In the technological field, particularly as regards seismic and boring activities, useful information was obtained, not only about working methods but also in so far as it brought to light peculiar and unique South African problems which have to be bridged. Sub-letting agreements were entered into with 12 capable and financially well-provided exploration companies by Soekor in respect of the search for crude oil in the territorial waters and on the continental shelf of the Republic. Great progress has been made with seismic and aeromagnetic surveys, and the sublessees have already spent R1.25 million in the first six months after the commencement of activities, whereas the obligations they incurred for a full year were for a lesser sum than that. In the first phase of their search 3,600 miles of seismic lines—and I understand that this has already increased to 4,000 miles—and 3,300 aeromagnetic line-miles have been completed. Soekor has made various further geo-physical and geological surveys on land, of which seismic, magnetic and gravimetric surveys are the most important. As a result of the intensive seismic survey, undertaken by four teams, drills can now be situated at the most promising places, according to the information acquired. Surveys over 4,000 line-miles have been carried out in parts of the Karoo, the Eastern Cape and the Transkei. Inter alia the four teams discovered the catchment structures for the two rotary drills at Schietfontein, Graaff-Reinet District, and Klein Waterval, in the Prins Albert District, and are continuing to determine new ones, as well as to unravel the regional structure. A gravimetric survey of approximately 40,000 sq. miles stretching from the eastern to the western Karoo, has been completed and a new project in the chalk area of Algoa Bay is in process. An aeromagnetic survey was carried out over approximately 20,000 line-miles of the southern Karoo and the eastern Cape. The latest information I have is that four diamond drill and two rotary drill boreholes have been completed in the Karoo. Altogether more than 40,000 ft. has been bored with diamond drills, and approximately 45,000 with rotary drills. At present Soekor has two rotary drills in operation. One is situated at Schietfontein in the Graaff-Reinet district, and the second on the farm Klein Waterval in the Prins Albert district, and both these drills have reached a depth of plus-minus 16,000 ft. In addition Geological Survey in support of Soekor have drilled with diamond drills at Colchester, near Port Elizabeth, Swartberg, Cedarville and Bergville in the Utrecht district. Sublessees of Soekor are drilling at Glen, near Bloemfontein, at Clocolan, and will soon commence drilling operations at Matatiele, while Karoo Petroleum is drilling at Vrede, and at Graaff-Reinet. Midlands Oil will, according to reports, soon commence drilling operations at Riversdale and in the Swellendam region. Then, too. Soekor will soon open up certain areas in South West Africa for subleasing, and this will take place in co-operation with the South West African Administration.

In addition I can state that up to the end of December, 1967, Soekor had spent R11,346,000 on its exploration programme, and according to the present programme Soekor’s fixed obligations in respect of two major oil drills on a three-year contract must comprise an additional R20.25 million by the end of 1969. In addition to this I just want to say that I think—and this is in fact the view taken by the Government—that in this search for oil there is no place for pessimists if South Africa’s position in the present world situation is borne in mind. We have an obligation towards future generations to at least determine, if there is no oil in South Africa—and I do not believe this at all at this stage— for those future generations that there is no oil. I am stating this at its most pessimistic. Secondly, one must at least understand that very vast sums of money are involved here, and notwithstanding the hundreds of letters which I, the Department and Soekor are receiving from people who are even going so far as to boil up iron-stone in kaffir pots, and others who are still able to see oil with the naked eye, there is only one basis on which millions of rand of the taxpayers’ money can be spent, and that is on the scientific basis which is generally accepted, with all its failings. But it is impossible for me to accept any other basis on which to spend money if it was not a scientific basis which is accepted by the world.

In addition I want to add to this now and state that up to now there has been no reason to believe, either on the part of information furnished by Soekor or on the part of information we have received from the private companies that it would be wiser not to continue operations on a very intensive scale. I do not know of a single private company who, after the investigations they made, did not go further and possibly spent larger amounts, and continued the search more intensively. That is why I maintain that there is every reason to proceed at an accelerated pace with the search for oil. I just want to mention one example. In the first two quarters a greater amount has been spent by private companies than their joint obligation for the full year. That is why I feel myself quite at liberty to inform hon. members that as far as Soekor’s next programme is concerned—that is to say, up to 1969—it is very clear to me that we will have to continue on this basis at least, and possibly at an accelerated pace.

†The hon. member for Parktown raised the question of uranium and he raised it in a manner which, I am happy to say, is more or less along the lines on which the Government is tackling this whole problem. I may tell the hon. member that both the Government and the industry are very much aware of the value of research, as well as the benefits which directly and indirectly accrue from these results; secondly, that the second five-year research programme, as the hon. member knows, is now drawing to a close, and that the programme for the ensuing five years has been submitted to me. I may also tell hon. members that it is my intention to discuss this matter not only with the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Board, but also, if time permits, towards the latter part of this month, to discuss this whole matter—I hope on the premises at Pelindaba—in the presence of the Prime Minister and also the Minister of Finance, so as to finalize this ensuing five-year programme. I may say that the current figure per annum which is being expended is R4,985,000. I also agree with the hon. member that we must not relax our efforts in looking for further deposits, as well as to solve the problems still facing the large-scale utilization of nuclear power.

*Now in addition to this I can just say that as regards the financing of this five-year programme hon. members will know that the mining industry, as well as Escom and other industries, have up to now made contributions. As soon as I have dealt with the question of the five-year-plan and know what is necessary, attention will again have to be given to this matter. I just want to point out that whether it is long term or whether it is short term, the benefits which will accrue from the brilliant work which is being done by the Atomic Energy Board will also be to the good of the mining industry. I cannot for one moment accept that the contributions being made by the industry and by Escom are not contributions which will fully justify the advantage which they will ultimately derive from it. On the other hand, we must understand clearly that we are dealing here with a strategic and a very sensitive material, and that in respect of nuclear research it is quite impossible to give the industry or the mining industry a say which is directly related to their contribution, because the Government simply has to deal with the matter of nuclear research on a highly confidential basis. That is why I simply want to inform the hon. member for Parktown that since he has made a plea for research and for increased funds for research with a view to all the advantages he sees in that, I can testify to him with the greatest responsibility, because I have knowledge of his matter, that the research in respect of this extremely strategic material, and related matters, is in the very best hands, i.e. those of the Atomic Energy Board. I am very proud of, and happy about what our scientists have been able to accomplish here. I think that I ought to leave the matter at that.

The hon. member for Virginia quoted certain figures from the report of the Department in regard to post-mortem examinations. To a certain extent this also ties up with aspects raised here by other hon. members. The hon. member for Virginia pointed out that it had been disclosed by these post-mortem examinations that a large number of people had been suffering from pneumoconiosis. In the hon. member’s opinion a mistake had been made here. But in all fondness and with all respect to the hon. member I want to say that I do not think it is sensible to view this matter in that light. May I point out to hon. members that in post-mortem examinations use is not only made of microscopic and macroscopic methods; chemical methods are also used to determine whether pneumoconiosis was present in the respiratory system of the person. In that way the presence of pneumoconiosis is discovered, which, according to the present methods, it is quite impossible to do while the person is still living. To my mind this large number of cases found to be suffering from pneumoconiosis after a post-mortem examination is a testimony of the honesty of pneumoconiosis research workers, because they did not try to gloss over or conceal a single case. On the contrary, if there is the slightest sign of pneumoconiosis, it is disclosed. Nor must we forget that the next of kin of these cases do in fact receive compensation. The hon. member for Geduld, inter alia, alleged that the percentage was difficult to justify, but I want to point out that the percentage is not really the point at issue here because the next of kin received precisely the same compensation. I am speaking of course of those above 20 per cent.

In addition the hon. member for Geduld raised the question of tuberculosis, and pointed out that perhaps the mine worker was only exposed to tuberculosis infection if he had to work in an enclosed space with Bantu labourers. But I must point out to the hon. member that the Bantu labourers have to pass a very strict test, which is for the precise purpose of determining whether they are tuberculosis sufferers or not. This is something which the hon. member must not lose sight of. This question of tuberculosis will have to be taken in conjunction with the request which was made for a general investigation, a matter which I dealt with at the outset of my reply. If such an investigation should take place, this matter would also be included.

The hon. member for Randfontein referred to certain other occupational diseases to which mineworkers are prone. The hon. member will recall that the Allen Commission, appointed in the early 50s, went into the entire matter of industrial diseases very thoroughly. But I must admit that circumstances have changed considerably since then, both as regards mining methods and scientific medical knowledge. I have an open mind on the question as to whether an investigation, such as the one requested by the hon. member is necessary or not. I shall discuss this matter thoroughly with my Department and with my medical advisers and let the hon. member know what the result of those discussions is.

In addition the hon. member for Port Natal raised a matter here which was really not necessary.

†The hon. member referred to a reply which I gave on the 14th of May in regard to the farm Boschhoek. The questions and answers are recorded in Hansard, column 5230. Except for one point, each point raised by the hon. member to-day was fully answered then.

*The position is simply this. This land was purchased by the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, as all land is purchased, for a certain amount. I cannot be responsible in regard to whether or not it has been paid, but I am quite certain that there are in fact reasons for this. It is a question which the hon. member can advantageously put to my hon. colleague. The land was purchased for the clearance of black spots. I understand that that is the reason why it was done. I am speaking under correction, but that is as I understand the matter. Now the hon. member has come forward with a great many unpleasant accusations, which are not justified. He stated, “The people were evicted from the land because someone felt there is a good chance of prospecting.”

I said the suspicion is there.

Well, then I must say the hon. member has a suspicious mind. I must say I am also suspicious of his suspicion. Let me say quite openly that all the information was given to the hon. member, every word of it. What was the reply? The hon. member asked me, according to Col. 5230 in Hansard—

1. (1) Whether prospectors’ licences have been issued in respect of State-owned land on the farm Boschhoek in the district of Dundee; if so (a) for what type of prospecting; (b) how many licences have been issued and (c) to whom have they been issued.

I gave him the reply as follows—

1. (1) Yes, prospecting permits have been issued;
   1. (a) To prospect for previous metals and base minerals;
   2. (b) Ninety prospecting permits.

Then I told him to whom they were given. His next question was—

The reply was as clear as daylight when I said the following—

How do these people know?

It is automatic. Once that land becomes State-owned land it is open for prospecting.

Even if the people are still on it?

It does not matter who is on the land. All the Department of Mines concerns itself with is the fact that it has become State-owned land, and we do not go around finding out whether it has become State land, but are informed that it has become State land.

*I want to leave it at that, but I think it was entirely unnecessary in any case to introduce this kind of matter into this debate. I now want to issue an invitation to the hon. member. He has asked questions in this regard, and he has discussed this matter again to-day. I am now asking him: What is ailing him? There is something he has not yet told us. I am now asking him across the floor of the House: From whom does he obtain his information? Where does he obtain his information?

The hon. member for Krugersdorp broached the question of dust in our mining industry, and in the first place I want to tell the hon. member in regard to this matter that I am quite satisfied. I shall let him have the information per letter, because it contains long technical details about processes and research which have been undertaken as well as certain samples which have been taken. I shall furnish him with full information in regard to this matter.

The hon. member for Stilfontein also touched upon the question of a commission and raised the very important point in regard to bursaries for mineworkers’ children. R100,000 has been made available for this purpose, and it has not been fully utilized. I know that this matter lies close to the hon. member’s heart. May I just inform the hon. member that this matter is being dealt with in terms of section 85 (5), where certain formulas have been laid down in terms of which the general pneumoconiosis Board subsequently allocates these bursaries. For my own information I have gone into this matter quite thoroughly and the matter is not as simple as all that. The results, and by that I mean the progress made by students receiving bursaries are not all they should be. In addition it is a requirement that students can only obtain these bursaries if they comply with certain requirements. Their school achievements and the results of certain tests they have to undergo are taken into consideration here. I was concerned about the fact that the bursaries for school training are not allocated to persons over the age of 18.

However, the fact of the matter is that upon the death of a pneumoconiosis sufferer his child is entitled to a bursary provided he has not yet reached the age of 18, but it even goes as far as the age of 21 years. As far as the extent of the choice of subjects is concerned, I have been informed that owing to the shortage in education and in the nursing services, there are so many provincial administration bursaries available that it will not really serve any purpose to create bursaries for those professions as well. We are now investigating the matter, and I hope we shall at least succeed in having students enrolled in the pharmaceutical profession and in one other profession which I cannot remember now. Those professions will subsequently be included in the syllabuses. I want to assure the hon. member that we shall see to it that an improvement is made here at any rate, i.e. in respect of the choice of trade or profession.

In regard to the non-utilization of the full R100,000, the problem in that case as well is that thorough provision must in fact be made for future obligations as students progress, but as I have already said on a former occasion to the hon. member, I shall go into this matter again thoroughly during the recess.

The hon. member for Salt River brought up for discussion the matter of the search for oil, one which, I think, I have already replied to in detail. The hon. member also wanted to make a little political capital out of the position of the mineworker. Let me just inform him that in respect of the mineworkers’ interests there could have been no inspiration on the part of the United Party. Not only do the mineworkers know who their friends are, i.e. this side of the House, but the mineworkers know specifically that their enemies are sitting on that side of the House. Over the years up to now the mineworkers have proved this in every constituency where they became the majority. I do not want to turn this into a political issue—the mineworkers do that themselves by voting for the National Party at every election. I shall leave the matter at that.

The hon. member for Kimberley (South) raised the question of our diamond diggers. Their numbers have decreased considerably, as the hon. member indicated. But although their numbers have decreased to such an extent, the search for precious stones is still an eager one. My information is that there are many certificate holders who no longer undertake digging operations themselves and towards the end of last year the number of bona fide diggers was 329 in the Transvaal and 260 in the Cape Province. Those figures are going to decrease because it is not a profession which is expanding. Nevertheless I think that South Africa will be the poorer without these people. They are individualists; they are in the good sense of the word “a race apart”. They enrich South Africa; they do not make us any the poorer. I held discussions with them after the hon. member was kind enough to bring them to me. I must tell hon. members who have not yet made the acquaintance of the digger community: It is worth taking the trouble to become acquainted with these people. They are like the North Westerners: Nothing gets them down. The plea they made to me was that they preferred to take the risk rather than to have absolute security. They want to experience that tension, that pleasure which can be derived from the possibilities which digging work offers and the privations associated with it. They prefer those things to the security which could perhaps result from an agreement between certain parties. The Schmidtsdrift area is at present a Bantu area which is being cleared, and it will possibly become State land. I have received representations that area is a traditional diggers’ area. We shall now have to consider what we must do in this regard. Problems are being experienced in this regard but I nevertheless feel that I can state at this stage that, when the time is ripe, the Department and myself will have to make at least a part of the land available to the diminishing number of diamond diggers.

The hon. member for Rustenburg raised a matter here in regard to the platinum mines and their importance. We are well aware of the importance of the platinum mines, particularly in that region. As he himself knows, I was there not so long ago. Unfortunately I cannot accede to the request for a clinic there. As regards the research institute which he advocated, I shall go into the matter thoroughly. If it is in any way possible to establish it there, we will have to consider this matter in a very favourable light. In this regard it will coincide completely with my other obligations, i.e. the decentralization of activities. Therefore the hon. member can rest assured that, if it is in any way possible from a scientific and mining point of view, Rustenburg will in fact come into consideration for such a research institute.

It was unfortunate but I have to spend some time on the following matter, i.e. the training schools for mineworkers, or Government mining schools, as they are called. As hon. members are aware, these mining schools are jointly established by the Chamber of Mines and the Government. The training schools are organizations registered under the Companies Act and are administered by a board of directors, of which five are appointed by the Government and ten by the Chamber of Mines. I am merely furnishing this information to indicate to hon. members that in my opinion the name “Government mining schools” is in fact a misnomer. It subsequently came to my attention that there was a degree of disquiet and uncertainty amongst the staff at the 18 training centres where the young people are being trained as mineworkers, inter alia, as a result of the decrease in numbers to 750. In addition I received representations from hon. members and from other sources to the effect that it would perhaps serve a good purpose to review this matter thoroughly. It affects a considerable number of people, apart from the superintendent who is in general control. I was told that there were 115 training officers and 39 administrative officers. Hon. members will understand that it is absolutely in the interests of the industry that there should be certainty, peace and quiet at these training centres. As I have said, it has come to my attention from various sources that this is perhaps not entirely the case. I then saw fit to request a report from my representatives on that board of directors. They subsequently furnished me with information. After that the fact that I had requested this report was discussed by the board of directors, and they requested me to investigate the dissatisfaction and complaints. I just want to inform hon. members that I have complied with this request. I appointed a senior regional magistrate to undertake a private investigation and to report to me personally in regard to this matter. This investigation has already commenced. He has someone to assist him, only as far as the technical aspects are concerned. He can hear evidence, pay visits and attend lectures and has a free hand to do whatever he finds necessary in order to keep me fully informed and to advise me in this regard. He is also at liberty, if he feels so inclined, to make recommendations. I am expecting the report towards the end of August and I shall then take the necessary steps, if any arising out of the report. I should also like to place on record my gratitude and appreciation towards the Department of Justice for their kind assistance in making available to us a senior magistrate of that status, i.e. Mr. Nel, to undertake this investigation. I hope that it will result in general satisfaction, peace and quiet and that we will be able to proceed with the important work which is in fact being done at these mining schools.

I think that I have replied in general to most of the questions. If there are any questions which hon. members asked during the course of the debate to which I have not yet replied—my time is running a little short—I shall definitely check up on this in Hansard and will perhaps furnish them with written replies. Once again I want to tell hon. members on both sides of the House that I appreciate the fact that we have since Friday afternoon been able to concern ourselves with the interests of our mineworkers, a very important facet of our labour force, in this dignified way.

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I can ask the hon. the Minister one question in regard to the shortage of geological staff? What does he propose to do to solve that problem?

I was going to say something about it, but may I say in general that I am also very perturbed about the shortage of geological staff. I could quote figures to the hon. member: Out of 108 posts, only 54 are filled. There are 19 contractual posts, but of course we are also losing them very fast. There are four posts which are filled on a temporary basis. I have already given attention to this matter, and I have written to my colleague the Minister of the Interior, because he is responsible for the Civil Service Commission, in regard to this question. But in the near future I will deal with the whole question of not only geologists, but of scientists in general. Unfortunately I shall not be able to do so under my next Vote, Planning, but I hope to make a considered statement as to this whole question of scientists, and a possible investigation, in the very near future, perhaps this week.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 50,—Planning, R11,920,000, and Loan Vote H,—Planning, R650,000:

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. the Minister is not too exhausted to listen to our discussions on this Vote. There are a number of matters, covering a very wide field, which we should like to raise with him, because the Department of Planning, as it has now developed, is really covering almost every field of the country’s activities. We have before us the report up to the end of June, 1967. When one sees the number of commissions, councils and committees of experts, universities, senior public servants, technical staff and other officials who are involved in the work of the Department in one way or another, it almost seems as if all the people in the country are being employed to plan what the other half ought to do. I do not mean for one moment to disparage the importance of planning. Actually I do not intend doing so, because we have criticized the Government from this side of the House for years its lack, or apparent lack, of systematic, long-term planning. But when one sees what is going on under the aegis of the hon. the Minister, I think one does ask oneself what the Government has been doing, during the last 20 years to make this, what one might call, planning “explosion”, necessary. It looks like a frenzied attempt to atone for the neglect of the past 20 years. I am reminded of a story of the past war when the late General Wavell was ordered to take command in the Far East when the Japanese were overrunning South-East Asia. Nothing could stop them and things were desperate. It is said that General Wavell sent a telegram to Sir Winston Churchill in which he said that he was prepared to carry the baby but that he felt bound to point out that he thought that it was going to be twins. I cannot help feeling that the hon. the Minister must have felt rather like General Wavell when he surveyed the leeway of all the years that the locusts had eaten which he was called upon to make up. This report is some indication of what the Minister is intending to do and how he is trying to do it. The report is of course a year old but I think that we might have a look at it and ask the Minister whether he can bring us up to date on some of the matters which are mentioned in the report. A number of reports had been received a year ago or were expected to be received in the near future, as far as we know. I think that the hon. the Minister might be able to enlighten us as to what has happened to these reports. His department is responsible for the preparation of these reports. They are then presumably handed on to the responsible Department. I do not know who is concerned with them after that. I do not quite know whether the hon. the Minister passes the baby of the report to the Department concerned and forgets about it or whether he follows it up and sees to it that something happens. If it is simply a committee or a commission’s report or a planning report, it is merely handed on to a Department. Unless somebody then sees that something is done about it a good deal of time, labour and money is liable to be wasted. There are a number of instances of this here and I should like to mention one or two examples. In paragraph 17, “Automation and Computation”, which falls under the heading “Scientific Planning” we see that the Council for Automation and Computation wanted to establish closer liaison with the Government. Their report on this matter was expected to be submitted to the Government very soon. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us whether anything has been concluded. In paragraph 18, “Industrialized Building”, we see that a report has been submitted to the Government on the question of establishing a national advisory committee on industrialized building, dealing with industrialized building techniques and materials and malpractices. Can the hon. the Minister tell us what has happened to that report and whether any action has been taken on it? Then there was also a proposal to establish an institute for coastal engineering at the University of Stellenbosch. That was under consideration at the time that this report was compiled and certain recommendations were made. I come then to the report to which the hon. the Minister referred just now, namely the report on the subject of scientists. Negotiations were being conducted, and this was over a year ago, to make it possible to obtain more reliable information on the loss of scientists. That is a very cryptic statement. With whom is the hon. the Minister negotiating on a subject such as this? I think he said just now that he had written to someone and that he hoped to make a statement, possibly next week. I do not know why he has to do this next week and cannot give us this information while this Vote is under discussion. Over a year ago he was conducting negotiations in order to get more reliable information. This is possibly the most important point to which I have referred. If we are indeed losing scientists and technical men and the position becomes serious and remains serious, obviously the work of the hon. the Minister and his Department is largely going to be wasted. I do hope that he will be able to give us some information on this subject while we are discussing his Vote.

I come then to controlled areas. In regard to controlled area No. 1, namely the Northern Free State, we are told that a revised plan will probably be issued at the end of 1967. I have a personal interest in this matter. I think that I was responsible for starting the first controlled use of land in this area. I would be very glad to know whether the revised plan has been received, to what extent it differs from the original and what is being done about it? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I was under the impression that the hon. member had asked for the privilege of the half-hour. I was still preparing myself to listen to his many objections to the Department of Planning. I do not believe that the hon. member was fair as regards his opening remarks. Let us be fair. If the hon. member looks at the establishment of this Department, which is four years old, he will see that it consists of 183 officials only and this is not a large establishment for a Government Department. If he takes into account the tasks which this Department has gradually made its own and with which it has been entrusted in the course of four years, he will see that it was wrong of him to have spoken of so many people who wanted to indulge in planning. He wanted to know what else they were doing. In addition he asked a few other minor questions such as those I have just mentioned. All of this makes his criticism sound very shallow. He also said that the Government had been doing nothing for 20 years and now this Department wanted to do everything all at once. Sir, here we are concerned with planning. Here we are concerned with a new administrative Government Department which even in Western countries, such as France and England, only originated during the post-war years of technological development. Only then did any real need for this type of co-ordination arise. The hon. member should not use such weak arguments. I believe that this Department had definitely justified its existence during the four years for which it has been in operation and that it is still justifying the reason for its existence by acting in a way which is scientific and which other countries before long will come to regard as an example worth following. In this regard I have in mind particularly those Western European countries that are trying very hard at this stage to put their planning machinery into smooth operation in various spheres.

What I really want to do, however, is to express a few ideas in regard to regional development associations. These associations have developed over the length and breadth of our country over the past 25 years. At the moment there are nearly 50 of them in our country. What they have in view, is economic development in their regions, and the people themselves are taking the initiative. Many of these associations have carried out regional studies. Some of these have been completed. As regards some of these regional studies the Department of Planning has rendered highly valued financial assistance as well as other information services to these associations. These associations first gather the basic facts concerning their regions. From those basic facts it is possible to make an analysis of the bottle-necks and in the end a decision can be taken as to how those people can be assisted to accelerate their slow economic development. A logical consequence of such a regional study is a development plan. Giving a summary of natural resources, the population and various other factors concerning economic development is not the only purpose which such a regional study serves, but it has to give rise to a development plan and it has to reflect what the indications are of potential economic development. It is very essential that such a development plan should be drawn up; as a rule this is implied in the report or recommendations of such a regional study. We know that some regional studies were undertaken in the years following the development of the Free State goldfields; we know that development guide plans were drawn up in quite a number of areas; that some of these guide plans have already been implemented and that some, as appears from this report, have been revised for re-implementation according to the new requirements brought about by development. But in all these cases these are mostly areas in which rapid economic development is already in progress. This may be the result of stimulation provided by some large Government project or the discovery of precious minerals or mines, etc., and in such areas rapid economic development is in progress. We may say that such development gives impetus to that guide plan. It necessitates action and the implementation of these guide plans.

I should like to refer, however, to regions which we may call backward regions, regions which are hardly making any real headway economically. There are various causes for this state of affairs, and I feel that fundamental points of growth ought to be created in such regions. These regions are the vast rural areas of the white homeland, particularly in the Cape Province. We do not want these regions to be forced into economic stagnation. We know that economic decentralization is accepted policy. As far as the rural areas are concerned, their principal resources are the people in those areas. If these people offer their enthusiasm, one does not want to frustrate them by not giving attention to their requests. If the inhabitants of the rural areas have carried out certain work, with the assistance of regional studies, there is a possibility under the present set-up that the recommendations flowing from such a regional study may not be implemented in the right way or in a way which those people can understand. A certain form of industrial development or a Government project may be required for the development of a region; a particular form of infrastructure may be essential for the development of such a region; it may be essential to grant such a region border industry advantages, but the final decision remains the prerogative of every individual Department concerned. We know that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council acts as the coordinating and advisory body. We know that this Council is the forum where private initiative and the Government meet for the promotion of economic development, but in spite of the advice and the recommendations of the Resources and Planning Advisory Council the situation arises, after a regional study has been carried out and after recommendations have been made and even after the Resources and Planning Advisory Council has accepted those recommendations, that it is still necessary to go from Department to Department to advocate projects of which such a Department takes a completely isolated view and which it does not see as part of a plan approved by the Resources and Planning Advisory Council after all aspects have been taken into account and after such a project has in point of fact been viewed against the background of the best interests of the country. Mr. Chairman, I am not pleading for a super-department, nor am I pleading for full executive powers for the Department, because I know that all these things are not possible at this stage. I am simply pleading for a clearer modus operandi in cases of this nature. I am pleading for continuous action from the lower levels, routine action, up to the highest level when the matter is submitted to the Cabinet for decision. I am doing so in view of the fact that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council is an over-all advisory body, a very important one, but it has no authority to take decisions. This will prevent many of these plans from gathering dust on the shelves. I know that this will take time and I want to be fair to the Department. The development regions have not been demarcated properly. The pattern of development regions as they evolve, has not been finalized as yet. There still is a great deal of overlapping. Some towns belong to four development associations. The essential implementation of guide plans for regions experiencing rapid economic development has to be given preference. I admit this, but in conclusion I just want to ask that the Department should take the active lead in co-ordinating the work of these development associations, which have been established freely, even if the Department does so by means of calling a congress, followed by an investigation and then by a demarcation, because then these people will not feel frustrated; they will then know for sure that there is order on the road ahead. When they have travelled the road and have made their recommendations in regard to a certain region, then they will know and realize and feel satisfied that their problems will be dealt with in an orderly fashion further along that road, and that the Cabinet will take the final decision in regard to those problems. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Gordonia has been dealing here with the problem which the Minister and his Department face whenever a development association comes into being. As he has said very correctly, it is for the Minister and his Department to co-ordinate all the various sectors in government and in the economic life of our country which lead towards the development of certain regional areas. The irony of this, of course, is that we have in Natal an area which has been planned for many years. I refer, of course, to the Tugela Basin. This is an area which was planned many years ago by a far-seeing and wise Administration of the Province of Natal through the medium of its Regional Planning Commission, which prepared a blue-print which throughout the world is accepted as an absolute classic example of regional planning. The irony is that this area, which has been planned and the potential of which has been known for so long, has yet to find the inspiration, the motive-power, to get it started on the development of which we know it is capable. I want to ask the hon. the Minister how he sees the function of his Department in the future development of the Tugela Basin and the whole of the surrounding area. Sir, I want to give the hon. member for Klip River credit for taking the initiative in starting the Catchment Development Association, which is a pressure group, designed to put pressure on the Minister and the Government to get something done in this area. I want to know how the Minister sees the function of his Department and what role he thinks his Department will play in the development of this particular area. Of course, the hon. the Minister has a limited stock of goodies that he can dish out. Only one more Iscor is planned; there is a very small number of big developments that the State has at its disposal.

Pressure won’t help.

May I say to the hon. the Minister that I am quite certain that the new Iscor will be sited where the maximum number of economic considerations dictate it shall be sited, and I believe that the Tugela Basin area has by far the greatest potential in that respect. If the hon. the Minister were to make the mistake of siting any of these large projects on the basis of political considerations alone and not on an economic basis, then I think he would be making a very grave mistake indeed. The point I want to make is that the area requires some sort of seed industry to get the development going. I have raised the question of the establishment of another Iscor; this might well be what the area is needing. I would like to know whether the Minister’s Department sees this as an area in which private enterprise has to take the initiative; whether his Department has at its disposal some resources in the way of loan funds or the ability to guarantee loans to enable the Catchment Association to act positively in the way in which American cities, for example, have acted. I refer to the case of the Springfield Armoury, for instance. The town of Springfield was built about the armoury which since 1911 had been making munitions for the American Government on a very large scale indeed. It was recently announced that because of obsolescence and for various other reasons the armoury at Springfield was to be closed down. This announcement immediately brought to the town of Springfield the prospect of a depression and unemployment. The people in the area got together and raised funds. The council of Springfield and the local business community took positive steps to attract new industries to their town. They took over from the Central Government at a nominal fee the immense space under roof cover which the armoury comprised and they attracted people there to work in those buildings and even to use some of the plant which the Government had left behind. I would suggest to the hon. the Minister, if he is interested in getting these regional areas developed, that this is the sort of line that his Department should be taking. The hon. member for Gordonia is interested in the development of these regions. Sir, the local people are by far the best agencies to follow up and to chivvy the various Government departments into seeing that these obstacles and blocks on the road to development are overcome. These obstacles can and will be overcome if they have the means at their disposal. If this area of Tugela, under the Government’s policy of border areas and decentralization, is going to become something meaningful, if it is not merely going to be something which involves changing the names of half the industrial area of Natal and then claiming that all the Bantu have been repatriated from the white areas, then it has to be developed and developed soon.

Do you support it?

Of course I support the decentralization of industry to an area such as this which has been earmarked as a border area simply because the Government is intent on trying to prove something which otherwise is unproveable. Sir, when you move the border areas closer to areas which are natural industrial areas, you are not really solving the problem; you are just bringing them closer to where the white people live. Sir, the point about the Tugela Basin in particular is the question of water supply. The hon. the Deputy Minister of Water Affairs said that the Tugela (Basin was viewed by his Department as being the last undeveloped or potential source of water for the Witwatersrand and for industrial development in general. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the Water Planning Commission which he has appointed has been appointed on the basis that it will look into all the potential water supplies of the Tugela Baisn. not only the main Tugela River itself but the Mooi River, the Buffalo River and other rivers in the area in order to be able to co-ordinate all those supplies and make them available for industrial development. Because this is literally one of the last major sources of water for industry in South Africa. Sir, it is a sobering thought that we in South Africa are building the whole of our industrial future on conserved water.

That is a very dangerous thing to do.

My hon. friend says it is dangerous. It can be dangerous. When one turns to the matter of the re-use of water and the treatment of effluent, etc., I wonder whether the hon. the Minister will not now take the step, which has not yet been taken by the Government, of making the C.S.I.R., which is part of his portfolio, the watchdog of water pollution, the agency in the Government which will be responsible for seeing that water pollution does not take place. The Water Act provides that water shall not be polluted, and they should enforce it. The Minister himself said in a previous Vote that he regarded himself as the channel through which the Minister of Finance could be approached for anything which might be necessary in the way of finance from the Government. I wonder whether he will not approach the Minister of Finance with a view to getting tax concessions made to industrial concerns which instal effluent purification plants in their factories. We know there are many factories, as in the timber industry, where the treatment of effluent is a major problem. If tax concessions can be made to these people, as is being done in America in the new campaign they have for cleaning up their water supplies, these people who are now planning the most modern treatment plants can be assisted.

Why not the Minister of Water Affairs?

Because I believe that this hon. Minister is responsible for the C.S.I.R. [Time expired.]

It seldom happens that the hon. member and I can sit round a fire and hold an amicable conversation, but this afternoon I also want to say a few words in connection with the Tugela Basin. Before doing so, I want to say immediately that in these times everyone everywhere is talking about the population explosion. As far as this is concerned, it is necessary to discuss this in view of the fact that the population of the world was 3,400 million people on 1st January, 1968, and this figure will double itself within 40 years or less. Now, for the purposes of my speech this afternoon, I want to say this. In South Africa, with its 18 million people, we will have a population of 42 million by the year 2,000, and I foresee, and I want to emphasize this, that in future there will be many overpopulated countries in the world which will look for living space outside their borders. I want to make bold by saying that South Africa is going to be one of those countries to which many countries of the world are going to look in an attempt to acquire living space. I want to say that as a result of this population explosion which is taking place and which is going to assume even larger proportions within this short period, the hon. the Minister of Planning and his Department have the most important task. Now I want to say immediately that the constituency of Klip River, which is situated in the Tugela Basin, will give the Minister and his Department its support in this connection. [Interjections.] When grown-ups are talking, small fry should not be heard. I intend this for the ears of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). In order to succeed in our object of supporting the Minister and in order to make a contribution not only to Natal but to the Republic of South Africa, we have established a Tugela Basin Development Association in the constituency of Klip River. Since that time this association has snowballed, so much so that parts of the constituency of the hon. member for Mooi River, who has just resumed his seat, have now also applied for membership of this association, as well as those areas of the constituency of Newcastle which are situated within the Tugela Basin.

What about Greytown?

Greytown is not situated within the Tugela Basin, and as far as I am aware the association has not seen its way clear to go outside the borders of the Tugela Basin, because if it should do so, where would matters end? We know that the whole of Natal would like to be brought into that association.

The Natal Town and Regional Planning Committee, to which the hon. member for Mooi River referred, has made a very thorough investigation into the Tugela Basin over a period of many years. Valuable publications are available to the association and to the Minister and his Department to assist them in their future work. In other words, the Tugela Basin Development Association, which has just been established, has a sound foundation of information on which it can build, one which has already been established for it. But now I want to tell the Minister immediately that there are two things which are bothering the people of Klip River and of the Tugela Basin.

What these people are concerned about, in the first place, is that the water which may be taken from the Tugela to be pumped to the Vaal Triangle, may stimulate further development in the latter area. If this were to happen, it would have the effect of delaying the decentralization of industries. In the second place it would mean that the population pattern would become more involved. I trust that the hon. the Minister will take note of these two points, because the people of the constituency of Klip River, as a matter of fact, the people of the Tugela Basin, are concerned about these two points, and I think the hon. member for Mooi River is as concerned about this as I am, particularly as regards the complicated population pattern of the Republic.

In the second place, these people are afraid that the Tugela Basin, which offers so many advantages, may create the impression in the mind of the Minister that there is no need to take a specific project to this area in view of the fact that the potential of the area itself provides sufficient attraction for industries. It is true that the Tugela Basin is the area in the Republic of South Africa which offers the best advantages for industrial development.

Except Standerton.

Except Standerton, where they grow mealies and pumpkins. I say this Basin is the most suitable place in the Republic for industrial development. In spite of that I want to ask of the hon. the Minister, if a third Iscor, for example, can possibly be established strategically in the Tugela Basin, that should be done seeing that would, in the first place, immediately accelerate decentralization of industries over the entire Republic, and, in the second place, provide relief as regards the population pattern in South Africa; this will be the immediate effect. The fact of the matter is that the Tugela Basin is ripe for development on a large scale. It lends itself to such development. In view of the fact that the Spioenkop Dam is being built and that Bantu residential areas are being established at Peters in the Estcourt District, immediate development on a large scale is possible. Consequently we want to make an appeal for this matter to be expedited, and we want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to do whatever he possibly can in this connection.

In addition I want to say that industries in the Tugela Basin will be to the advantage of all population groups in the Republic of South Africa, and not only in Natal, as one already has concentrations of Whites, Bantu, Coloureds and Indians in the Tugela Basin. In other words, there one is going to create a new metropolitan area and I make bold to say here this afternoon that we are going to develop an urban complex in the Tugela Basin which will put the Witwatersrand in the shade, and I say this with all respect to my hon. friends who come from the Transvaal. But these are facts and this has to be done for the simple reason that there is going to be a population explosion and that one will have to place the largest concentrations at those places which offer the greatest advantages, places where the people can be absorbed and accommodated.

But will it not become a Bantustan or a Zulustan?

Included in the advantages which the Tugela Basin offers are the following. [Time expired.]

All I would say to the hon. members of the rivers, both the Mooi and the Klip, is that we envy them their problem. You see, Sir, we in the Transvaal have additional handicaps, mainly in the person of the hon. the Minister, and whereas they can divert their rivers and can even dam their rivers, we are in the somewhat unfortunate position of being limited in the action we can take.

When the hon. the Minister introduced the second reading of the Physical Planning Bill Last May, he made a number of very important statements and gave some very important undertakings. That Bill, which is now an Act, provided that no factory can employ more Bantu to-day than it employed on 19th January, 1968, unless it has the Minister’s permission. I want to refer to what the hon. the Minister said in his second-reading speech, as reported in Hansard, Vol 21, col. 6766—

Now I want to test what is actually happening against the undertakings the hon. the Minister gave during the Second Reading. In reply to questions put to the hon. the Minister, he gave the House certain information. He gave certain figures of applications that had been made to him from 19th January to 22nd February, and he gave certain figures in regard to subsequent applications which were made up to 14th May. If you summarise all these figures, you find the position to be that between 19th January and 14th May, 1968, a total of 563 applications were submitted to the Minister. Of these applications, 84 were advised that their applications were not necessary; 234 applications were granted, 43 were refused and 202 were still under consideration. It is quite clear from the figures that the Minister gave the House that of the 202 applications that were still outstanding at the 14th of May some have been waiting to be finalized for periods ranging from one to four months.

Months?

Yes, from the 19th of January until the 14th of May. This is a far cry from the assertions of the Minister when he told us and emphasized that there would be no delay regarding the performance of the functions of the committee he would set up in terms of the Act. The Minister knows as well as I do that industry is very concerned with the delays that have been taking place in dealing with their applications. The Minister must correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told that in some cases applications have been in the hands of the Minister or his department for nearly four months and have not been disposed of. This is a very serious state of affairs.

Which clause are you referring to, 2 or 3?

I am dealing with applications for additional Bantu labour.

You information is incorrect.

Will the Minister tell me then how long has the oldest application been outstanding as at the 14th of May. Unless the department has got a move on since then, I can only go by the information the Minister gave us last time.

Your deductions are wrong.

While the Minister's department is sitting on these applications the factories cannot get on with the job. They cannot plan their production; they do not know the extent to which they can commit their output. In the long run it is the end consumer who has to pay the price for any tardiness by the Minister or his department by increases in prices.

If a factory is asked to submit a tender, what happens? Unless an industrialist knows that he can get a reply to his problem of additional labour which he may need to be able to tender on a project, he runs into trouble, because he can do one of two things. He can gamble and put in his tender in the hope that the Minister will give him the additional Bantu, or he can be cautious and say, “I cannot tender, I must leave it to my competitors”, and that means he does not get the job and so we start setting up monopolies.

What would you describe as a reasonable time?

A reasonable time is a week. According to what the Minister told us it ought to be settled within a week or a few days. As a matter of fact, I think the Minister once made a statement that it could be settled within 24 hours. There is another question I want to ask the hon. the Minister. He received 563 applications up to May of which he told us 234 had been granted. I want the Minister to tell this Committee what he means by “granted”. What does he mean when he says “an application is granted”? Were these applications granted in full, because that is what I understand the term to mean. Were they granted to the extent of 50 per cent or 40 per cent or 30 per cent or 20 per cent? What was the position? I understand that in many cases less than 50 per cent of the additional labour that was asked for was granted. I think the Minister should tell the Committee in respect of the 234 applications he granted how many Bantu were actually applied for and how many Bantu were actually granted. When the Minister reduced the number that had been applied for did he tell the applicant the reason why he had reduced the number, and what was the basis of the reduction?

In his second-reading speech the Minister said he had deliberated with the committee and once they had made certain policy decisions they would be able to function. I want to ask the Minister whether he has told commerce and industry what his criteria are, what his yardstick is for the granting of additional Bantu labour, because as far as I can ascertain industry to-day has no idea whatsoever on what basis the Minister makes his decisions. If he does not want to have complaints from industry then it is essential that everybody should know the basis on which the Minister works. The impression is gaining ground that the decisions are ad hoc decisions and that no basic policy is being followed.

The Minister in his second-reading speech also dealt with problems he thought might arise in the implementation of the Act. He mentioned for example seasonal labour and casual labour. I want to ask the Minister what is he doing about these two problems. What decision has he come to, for example, on casual labour? He knows as well as I do that casual labour is a constant problem and the example has been quoted ad nauseum of railway trucks that have arrived and have to be offloaded in a hurry because the Railways are shouting for a quick turn-around time. When casual labour is required an application has to be made to the Minister before they can be used. I think the Minister will agree that hundreds of industrialists to-day are breaking the law because they are using casual labour which they have to do, before they can get the Minister's permission. They do not have the time to wait for permission.

I want to ask the Minister whether some of the effects of the Act have become apparent to him. First of all, he has only got three officers as far as I know, or he had them last month, namely in Pretoria, Port Elizabeth and Pietermaritzburg, which dealt with these applications. People outside those areas who want to apply for permission are having a certain amount of difficulty. Another strange, or perhaps not strange, effect of the Act is that where rented premises are being used by manufacturers the fact that permission must now be obtained from the Minister to establish a new factory has given the landlord a hold over the tenant who is now in very serious fear of being exploited, because he does not know on which criteria the Minister operates. If he is a tenant in the factory and the landlord says to him, “I am going to increase my rent”, he pays the higher rent because he does not know what the Minister's attitude will be if he moves his business to other premises. As we know, permission has to be obtained from the hon. the Minister for the establishment of a new factory. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to follow up the argument of the previous speaker. As far as previous speakers are concerned, I just want to say that I was very pleased to learn this afternoon that the hon. member for Mooi River has at long last decided to support the Government's policy of border industries, and I want to congratulate him heartily on that decision.

I want to touch on another matter, and this concerns controlled area No. 9. According to the population census of 1951, the white population of the Empangeni municipal area was 1,336 at that time and in 1960 it was 2,570. The present estimated figure is just over 5,000. This gives us a population increase, calculated as a percentage on a compound basis of 7 per cent, during the period 1951 to 1960, which is fairly normal. For the period 1960 to 1967, the increase was a compound percentage of nearly 10 per cent per annum. We want to accept that this rate of increase already exceeds the normal rate of increase. We now have to ask ourselves what the future trend is going to be, and to form an opinion in this connection, we must have regard to the following matters. Firstly, the construction of the Empangeni-Richard's Bay railway line, at an estimated cost of R3.8 million, which will commence at an early date. Secondly, the electrification of the railway line from Durban to Empangeni. Thirdly, the construction of the Vryheid-Empangeni Railway line at an estimated cost of nearly R40 million with an anticipated date of completion in 1971. Fourthly, the construction of the Richard's Bay harbour which will commence within the next three years. Fifthly, the commencement of the Durban-Richard's Bay-Ogies pipeline. Sixthly, the commencement of the construction of the aluminium foundry. Finally, there is the construction by Escom of a comprehensive network of powerlines in that area. In order to emphasize the importance of the aforegoing, I may refer to the report of the Railways and Harbours Board which has been published and which contains the only official information in regard to the planned development in that area which we have obtained up to now. Paragraphs A to H of that report deal with this.

The hon. the Minister of Community Development said as long ago as 1966 that the Government had great plans as regards this Empangeni-Richard's Bay complex. He said that he was not sure whether this area would become practically as large as Durban or whether Durban would be practically as large as this area! During the opening of the Zululand Show last year, the hon. the Prime Minister said the inhabitants of the area would not recognize that area within 10 years and that this complex would be able to compare with Durban within the next 25 years.

If words mean anything, then we want to accept that this complex will experience an unparalleled growth before the end of this century. We accept that the growth will not be equally rapid at all times. We shall have times of rapid growth followed by periods of consolidation, so that if we were to draw a graph, the line would not go straight up, nor would the curve be gradual, but the graph would be one which rises and falls.

Now, if we accept a white population density of 20 per acre, and a white population of 100,000 by the year 2000, an area of well over 5,000 acres will be required for residential purposes only. Add to this the area required for roads, services, recreation, education, hospitalization, not to mention commercial and industrial development, and we may safely accept that an area of well over 10,000 acres will be required within the next 25 years. Now comes the question. Who is responsible for the development of this large area and who is going to finance that development? Who is going to provide the services in the area? Who is going to decide what areas will receive their power from the local authority or directly from Escom? Is there planning in respect of a regional water supply board? Is there planning in respect of a regional sewerage scheme, regional abattoirs, a regional cemetery? These are only a few of the numerous problems to which we have to give consideration at the present time. What is very clear, however, is that the present white population will never be able to bear that financial burden.

Is it not possible for us to find somebody else to plan the cemetery?

It depends on whom we want to bury, Mr. Chairman. The costs would run into millions of rand, even if we were able to obtain loans at the present high rates of interest. The local authorities do not have the staff or the knowledge to enable them to get to grips with this programme of rapid development, and—and this I want to emphasize—advance information of this programme which will enable them to call in consultants, is simply not available. Consequently we believe that the responsibility for the development of the first stage of this programme will have to fall on the shoulders of an organization or body under the patronage of the Department of Planning and/or another Government Department. We believe that funds will have to come from the State, loans will have to be long-term ones and the fixed rates of interest low. The constitution of such a body requires deep thought. There is the possibility of a public utility company or of a special committee possibly falling under the control of the I.D.C. We have already made representations for local representatives on such a body for the sake of local knowledge and interests. mindful of the fact that co-operation with local bodies and persons is very important and necessary. In the interests of sound planning, it is recommended that when the time is ripe the complex should be placed under the control of one local authority to which the interim development authority may be transferred, and this is to happen as soon as possible. With this in view it is necessary even at this stage to standardize the regulations, by-laws, etc., of the existing local authorities so that amalgamation may be expedited and simplified. The intention of this approach is not to take over or usurp the powers and the functions of local authorities. We believe that local authorities have a very important role to play in this entire matter, and it must be possible to rely on their cooperation at all times.

I should like to touch on a second matter and this relates to the Indians in the area to the north of Durban and to the south of the Tugela River. The natural tendency at the present time is for Indians to the north of Durban and to the south of the Tugela to seek a livelihood there in larger numbers and to a progressively increasing extent. This is already bringing problems in its wake in respect of housing, services, and the provision of employment. I think the time has arrived when we may make representations to the hon. the Minister for this area to be developed and planned on a regional basis, so that it will be possible to provide accommodation, the attendant services, and especially employment to these Indians. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to assure the hon. member who has just spoken that any agreement between the United Party's policy and that of the Government is purely coincidental and temporary. Because he must realize this: It is the United Party's policy that there shall be made economic use of Bantu labour, whether that labour be in an adjacent Native reserve, or elsewhere, while his policy is that these Bantustans will gradually become independent, and the whole of white Natal will be merely an adjunct. Under their policy one might almost say that Natal will be a white location of independent black Bantustans. That is what we reject, and that is what he favours.

I want to speak about another problem, almost as great as that of Natal in future, namely the problem of the Witwatersrand, where I come from. It has been surprising to see how few hon. members on the other side who represent seats on the Witwatersrand, have come out in defence of their constituencies against, I would almost call it, the nefarious political plans of the hon. the Minister. As a planner he has shown very few positive results, particularly as regards the Witwatersrand. In fact, as far as industry and commerce in that area are concerned he can be called “King Chaos”. He is threatening those areas with economic deterioration and even, many say, in future economic ruin. The bludgeon that he is using, is this Physical Planning and Utilization of Resources Act, which was passed last year. With this bludgeon he is to-day hitting the Witwatersrand, against all laws of economics, merely following his own ideological star or will-o'-the-wisp. I believe that his actions are becoming more and more dictatorial as time goes on, as dictatorial as his own statement that he wanted to do, or he could do, without an Opposition in South Africa, a point which I do not wish to raise and follow further here, but which I am certain will be raised later on with the hon. the Minister. It is a disgraceful statement to say that there need not be an Opposition in South Africa.

What has that to do with planning?

It has a lot to do with the Minister of Planning, let me assure the hon. member for Brakpan. I would like the hon. member for Brakpan to tell us how many applications in his own constituency for industrial sites and for the use of African labour, were refused by the Minister, in his as well as in the adjacent constituencies depending on the town of Brakpan as the economic centre. Let him tell us that and discuss the matter with the hon. the Minister. Let there be no mistake about the express aim of the Government to slow down economic growth on the Witwatersrand, the economic heartland of South Africa, the area which contains the gold capital of the world, merely on account, as I said, of their ideological will-o'-the-wisp. Recently the Government's own Resources and Planning Council made an analysis of the Transvaal industrial areas. They decided on their own— I take it with the approval of the Minister— that—

They said that in this region—

I want to draw hon. members' attention to those last words, “with the decentralization programme it will slow down even more”. I am. justified, therefore, in saying that this is a deliberate policy to slow down the economic growth of the Witwatersrand. Again I deplore it that so few hon. members on the other side who represent constituencies on the Witwatersrand are protesting against the deliberate slowing down of the economic growth of that important area. Until the hon. the Minister became Minister, the Witwatersrand was not so vulnerable. Its growth potential was not relatively slow, as he believes it has now become. The danger was not so great that their decentralization programme would slow down that growth even more. The hon. member for Parktown has mentioned instances of the refusal of applications for the use of industrial land and of Native labour. Let us look at the aim of the hon. the Minister, or his hope, I would almost say. Under normal growth as it was in the past, his own Planning Council told him, in the year 2000 the gross product of the Witwatersrand would be R10,300 million. Just leave the Witwatersrand alone, and that is what we shall have: An annual gross product of R 10,300 million. Then bis Planning Council says that it has to be cut down to R6,700 million by almost a third. How is this to be done. By the adaptation in terms of the Government's policy of industrial decentralization. That is the policy of the “King Chaos” that we are having in the Department of Planning. It is being followed by deliberately freezing the number of Bantus that are permitted to be employed in adjacent industries.

Do not call me names. Plead for integration directly, and have done with it.

If the hon. the Minister will give me a definition of the word “integration” then I will discuss it with him. But I am not prepared to discuss a term on the definition of which he and I cannot agree. By “integrated” I mean that Bantu lagour is necessary for the economic development of the whole of South Africa. Does he accept that? If he accepts that, he is also an integrationist. That is all. But to talk of integration as meaning social mixing, a mixed race, etc., is utter, complete nonsense. In other words, let him define “integration”, or let him accept my definition of integration and then we can discuss what it means.

It is a political catchword, that is all.

The hon. the Minister froze the number of African labourers on the number they were on 19th January, a foolishly chosen date, so stupidly chosen, that his own Department later had to admit that they thought they had made a mistake in choosing that particular date. In planning the way he does, he is throttling the advance of the Witwatersrand. Commerce and industry experts, who know their labour needs, now have to go almost on their knees to ask the hon. the Minister for additional labour. Firms have had to wait, and he cannot deny it, for their applications for many weeks. I believe matters have now improved. He will probably tell us that they have improved. Why? Not because of any improvement in the hon. the Minister himself, but because of the common sense of industry and commerce, which forced him to change his attitude in this regard. What sort of planning is this we are going to have on the Witwatersrand? In a leading article in the Transvaler the following appeared:

Then he refers to a speech made by the hon. Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. This then appeared in a leading article:

Bantu labour will be available to no one in the Republic. Is that what he is aiming at? If that is so, he is aiming at the economic ruin of South Africa. Let me mention some of the other results of his policy. Thirdly, where approval has already been received from other authorities to employ additional labour within a local authority or for contract labour, the permission of die hon. the Minister is still required before this labour can be hired. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to reply to the speech made by the hon. member for Orange Grove. The hon. the Minister has already said enough about it by way of interjection. I just want to mention something to the hon. member which is the opposite of what he said. In view of his plea for the Witwatersrand, I am sure that hon. members on this side of the House who come from the Rand would also do so if they were given the opportunity, but I am sure they would do so in a way which would differ from the viewpoint of the hon. member for Orange Grove. I also represent a constituency where tremendous industrial development is anticipated. I should like to see Witbank and Middelburg develop. However, I want to say to the hon. the Minister and the Government that if Witbank must be developed at the expense of the future of South Africa, then Witbank must rather not be developed. [Interjections.] It is an inherent part of members on this side of the House that, if we have to choose between personal interests and national interests, we choose, as we always do, that parochial and personal interest be subordinate to the interests of the country and the people. If the hon. member wants to plead for the Witwatersrand where this serious retardation is supposed to exist, I just want to ask the hon. member to think in the first place about what his Government, the party which he subsequently decided to join, did in order to bring about proper and orderly development on the Witwatersrand. Before he levels reproaches across the floor of this House, I want to ask him whether he still remembers Moroka, where the labourers were accommodated in factories on the Rand. This is something this Government inherited from the previous Government. The Government had to clean up those things for the sake of the industrialists of the Witwatersrand as well. I want to ask him what was done by that Government as far as the conservation of water sources for the Witwatersrand is concerned, a matter which was referred to this afternoon as well. Of course, that side did nothing. That is why we had a water crisis, which this Government had to cope with. The hon. member for Orange Grove will do well to think about those things and to see things as he saw them at the time when he was editor of the Kruithoring.

I want to leave the hon. member at that, and I want to thank the Secretary of the Department and his officials for the report which they submitted and which gives an indication of the extent to which this Department has grown under the guidance of the hon. the Ministers in the few yeans of its existence. It is true that this Department has only been in existence for a few years. Both Ministers who dealt with these portfolios and the officials concerned, proved to the country during these past few years how necessary it was for a Department of Planning to have been established.

It certainly was necessary after 20 years of Nationalist Government.

I want to ask that one more job be given to this Department if they can find the time to do it, namely to plan a reorganization of the United Party, especially with a view to throwing the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) out of that party.

I only tackle big projects.

I think that proof has been given of how important this Department is within the whole Government framework to the interests of our country.

I want to say a few words about a few matters. I do not want to be critical when doing so, but I just want to get more clarity and to ask whether the modus operandi of the activities of this Department cannot be improved in any way, I am referring in the first place to the work done by the Group Areas Board. I want to confine myself to the case in the Transvaal where quite a number of Coloured group areas have already been proclaimed and Where it has been laid down as the policy of this Department, as we see on page 7 of the report, to endeavour to proclaim group areas for the Coloureds in the Transvaal with the least possible disruption. The assertions made here that the Coloureds in the Transvaal do not like to live among the Bantu, are absolutely true. The Coloureds in the Transvaal prefer to have their own group areas. They do not want to be accommodated among the Bantu. It is also true, as is stated in the report, that the rural Coloured community is so small that the expense is not justified in proclaiming a group area for Coloureds in every small town. I think that it is necessary to notice appreciatively that the Department has been trying to meet the Coloureds in the Transvaal in respect of Coloured group areas with as little disruption as possible. Five areas in particular, apart from those in the Witwatersrand-Pretoria-Vereeniging complex, have been set aside. One of those areas is Witbank. I want to assure the hon. the Minister that the local authority there and other organizations concerned, will do their best to plan for our Coloured population with the least disruption and to their utmost satisfaction. But I think that it must be remembered that there is still a lack of coordination between the Department of Planning and the Department of Community Development. I do not want to discuss a Vote which has already been approved, but I notice from the report that the Department of Planning has also drawn attention to this shortcoming, namely that there is some lack of coordination as regards the necessary preliminary work, that is to say the gathering of statistical data about the number of people that must be re-settled, the financial requirements to accommodate them, the areas available and the availability of employment opportunities with a view to making the best possible use of this Coloured labour force. In the second place, this cannot be followed up satisfactorily after a group area has been declared by the Department of Community Development. I do not want to criticize this Department, but the fact is that there are certain problems of overlapping which cause disruption for the Coloureds and which make it difficult for the authorities concerned to carry out this task properly. I therefore want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider whether attention cannot be given to this matter by his Ministry to deal with these difficulties of overlapping and other related difficulties.

I was also glad to read in the report that the committee of inquiry into the Republic's water sources which had been appointed would fall under this Department. One of the terms of reference of this committee is the following: “The systematic development, safeguarding, stabilizing and conservation of the available and potential water supplies and water sources.” I want to leave the matter by asking a question, namely, while the conservation of the available sources is being discussed here, may I just mention the question of the pollution of the streams, as the hon. member for Mooi River did, too. This pollution creates a serious danger to our country, so much so that at some time or other finality will have to be reached as to which Department is responsible not only for the investigation, but also for the elimination of this pollution. In this connection I am referring particularly to the pollution by exhausted mines. I think the C.S.I.R. published a report in respect of Natal in which it warned that present conditions could lead to a crisis within 20 years, especially at the upper reaches of the Tugela. A similar investigation was also carried out in the Witbank-Middelburg area to point out the danger which existed there as a result of water being polluted by exhausted coal mines. This danger may develop to such an extent that it may create a major crisis for large parts of our country. I shall be glad if the hon. the Minister can give us an indication of how the commission can carry out this part of its terms of reference properly.

I also notice from the report that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council was asked, according to Government policy, to investigate the subdivision of land into small pieces of good farmland for agricultural and residential purposes. In this connection I just want to point out that land is sometimes subdivided into smallholdings by speculators without their making provision for the necessary services, services such as roads, schools and other services which may be required later. This matter creates endless problems. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is very nice of the hon. member for Witbank to want to sacrifice the future development of his area for the benefit of South Africa, after having made sure that coal mines cannot be moved and that the steelworks have already been built! Otherwise the sentiment he expressed is something which we must admire.

I want to take part in this debate from a different angle. First of all I should like to associate myself with the criticisms expressed by the hon. member for Constantia and also by the hon. member for Zululand, of this report. You see, Sir, this hon. Minister is being held up as a veritable Czar of planning, the solution to all the problems facing South Africa. But if one goes through this report, one finds that it contains no information at all. Take, for example, the two instances also referred to by the hon. member for Constantia. First of all, there is paragraph 19 of the report referring to a full investigation which has been carried out in regard to the question of an Institute for Coastal Engineering at the University of Stellenbosch. But there is no indication here whatsoever of the recommendations which have been made, e.g. whether it has been recommended that such an institute be established or whether it has been recommended that it should not be established. Because this is a most important subject, I should like to have some further information about it. Then there is paragraph 21 referring to negotiations which have been conducted to make it possible to obtain more reliable information about the loss of scientists.

In the first place, with whom have negotiations been conducted? Secondly, more reliable information than what other information? More reliable, for instance, than that which he can get from the hon. the Minister of tihe Interior? If that is so. I am in absolute agreement with this hon. Minister.

I shall confine myself mostly to harbour investigations. Here we come to paragraph 42 of this report, which we can consider under the heading “Milnerton/Rietvlei area”. According to this report this area is being investigated with the eye to establishing a fishing harbour. It is pointed out that these investigations are being delayed on account of investigations into sand movements being carried out in Pretoria. Maybe this is one of the reasons why the hon. the Minister wants to establish these facilities at Stellenbosch. I sincerely hope it is so. I myself went to see some of these experiments in December last year and by that time these experiments had just got under way. They were far behind schedule.

However, I should like to know from the Minister whether this area is still being planned with an eye to the establishment of a fishing harbour? Or has some rethinking taken place in view of the committee which has been appointed to investigate the. possibility of developing Rietvlei as a big commercial harbour, as an extension of Cape Town Harbour in fact? These things have been mooted and discussed in debates with the hon. the Minister of Transport. But here we have a report that it is to be developed as a fishing harbour. Many thousands of rand have been spent by people on investigations of the possibility of establishing a shipbuilding industry in this area, as also at Saldanha Bay to which I shall come just now. But according to this report we are still talking about fishing harbours and the like, for this area. What is in fact happening here? Is it being investigated purely and simply as a fishing harbour or are various Departments looking at it from different angles? I do not know.

Surely, if this hon. Minister is doing the planning, he should be doing the planning. If it affects the harbour Department and the hon. the Minister of Transport is going to handle it, let us then be told who is in fact going to handle this issue. This applies again to containerization, I think, which is an aspect I will touch if I have the time later on. This is some of the information I would like to have in regard to this area, because it is of vital importance to South Africa at the moment. It is obvious that the Suez Canal route is not going to be reopened for a considerable time and if we are still thinking in terms of Rietvlei as a fishing harbour, we are obviously never going to catch up and never going to cope.

I would now like to come to the question raised by the hon. member for Zululand. Paragraph 43 of the report in regard to Richard's Bay says practically nothing. It is not really a report at all. It consists of only 3½ lines and says—

This is going to be the biggest and most important harbour in South Africa, according to the hon. the Minister of Transport, and I think it will be. In spite of this we have the hon. member for Zululand beseeching and begging the hon. the Minister for Information to try and see in which direction the planning is going. He himself has had to rely on information he received from the Railways. That is the only information the hon. member said that he had, here this afternoon. Local authorities, according to the hon. member, do not know what is happening. They do not know who is going to finance the land purchase which are going to be necessary and who is going to finance the development. He is looking for this information now. I think that this information should be more readily available and that at least the local authorities should know something of what is going to be expected of them in the development of this area. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us and I hope that he will.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister one more question in connection with Richard's Bay. He talks about the aluminium smelter. Where is the bauxite an aluminium ore, for this smelter going to come from? I will be quite honest with the hon. the Minister. I have heard that it is coming from Australia and Malawi. Will he tell us whether this is correct? I would also like to know from the hon. the Minister how it is going to be transported to Richard's Bay. Will new railway systems be necessary to handle this development or what transport system is envisaged? I understand that Malawi has such huge deposits of bauxite that it will last our smelter for many many years to come. I would like to know if we are contemplating getting that ore and, if so, what means are going to be used to transport it.

As far as the planning is concerned, I can tell the hon. member that the bauxite will be there.

The hon. the Minister can tell me in his reply where it is coming from. In paragraph 44 of the report, the planning of Port St. Johns harbour as a trading harbour is mentioned. It states that a report is being made available. Has this report been published? Could we have access to this? It would help if we could criticize, because our criticism in the past has been of assistance to this Government and South Africa. I am quite sure that some constructive criticism might well help to spur this hon. Minister on. If we do not have the information, we are coming back to his theory that he does not need an Opposition.

I believe he needs an Opposition and if he would make this information available to the Opposition I am sure that we could help him, or spur him on to get these reports out quicker and better and perhaps to get on with the job sooner. In regard to Port St. Johns I would like to know whether the hon. the Minister is planning to make it a commercial harbour. What depth of water is he planning there? What wharfage is going to be supplied and will cranes be provided to work ships? These are questions I want answered, because the hon. the Minister invites them in his report. The hon. the Minister says that there is a report, but I think it is essential that we should know what the position is.

Lastly I want to deal quickly with his report in regard to St. Helena Bay and Saldanha Bay. I want to refer to paragraph 49 in connection with a Namaqualand Coast harbour. I take it that he means, St. Helena Bay, Saldanha Bay and a Namaqualand Coast harbour together. What are the hon. the Minister's intentions there? What does he hope to do? Does this in fact tie up with the rumoured ore pipeline? What prospects are there for the shipping of ore from the West Coast? Is it going to be practical or not? If it is going to be practical, what capacity ore carrier is he going to equip the harbour to handle? This is a very important matter. It is not sufficient for the hon. the Minister to say that he is going to establish a harbour on the West Coast for the conveyance of ore. The economic aspect must be considered fully and absolutely. These are just a few of the questions the hon. the Minister can be asked on his planning of harbours and what he has in mind for the various matters which I have put before him. I wish I had more time to discuss the position more fully with him, but unfortunately I do not have that time.

Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member for Umlazi was, as usual, unnecessarily biting and spiteful. Nobody has ever held up the hon. the Minister as somebody who is going to solve all the problems in connection with planning immediately. Neither has the hon. the Minister said so himself. This is too enormous a task, because little or nothing has been done about this matter over the last three centuries.

I would like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to a certain matter in connection with the nuclear power-station on the West Coast. The fact of the matter is that suitable seaside resorts, particularly in the vicinity of the Peninsula, are very scarce. On the West Coast, in the immediate vicinity of Cape Town, there is not one place suitable for a Coloured seaside resort. The problem is that Bloubergstrand and Melkbosstrand are overcrowded during week-ends and holidays. After lengthy consideration it was decided to proclaim an area for Coloureds, known as Ouskip, on the West Coast immediately north of Melkbosstrand. This area was proclaimed by the Department of Community Development and immediately afterwards the Cape Divisional Council started to build a road to the area. While negotiations were still being conducted between the Divisional Council and the owner of the land, Escom purchased the site for the erection of a nuclear power-station. I want to say immediately, and I do not want to be misunderstood, that I want to express my gratitude towards Escom and the Department of Planning for the fact that the nuclear station is to be erected on that site.

Is it still going to be erected there?

Yes, if it is decided accordingly. I feel that some combination could be effected between the nuclear power-station and the sea-side resort. We visited the area some weeks ago together with the Secretary and other officials of the Department of Planning, the Provinsial Administration and divisional councils of Cape Town and Malmesbury, as well as the chairman of the Atomic Energy Board. I am no expert, but according to what I hear there should not be a densely populated area within a range of two miles from the nuclear power-station. The water required for the power-station has to be taken from the sea at a rocky part of the coast. Unfortunately, the only area along the west coast where such a rocky area is to be found and which is not heavily populated, is precisely in the vicinity of Ouskip. As a layman, I see no reason why the nuclear power-station cannot be erected two miles inland. The seaside resort, which is a suitable one, can still be established in that area. If this is done, it may cost slightly more, but on the other hand not only the Coloured sea-side resort which will be lost there, because between Melkbosstrand and Ouskip there is another white seaside resort, which is a very suitable terrain and which has already been divided into plots. If the nuclear power-station is erected at the coast, it will mean that white beach will also fall within the two-mile zone, which should preferably not be densely populated. I honestly think that it will be more economic to have the nuclear power-station erected away from the coast. I believe and I hope that, although problems will be experienced as regards the soil formation, it will be possible to do that. I raise this matter, because I hope the hon. the Minister will do something to reach finality in this matter as soon as possible. It is in the interest of all race groups that finality should be reached as soon as possible. The Divisional Council of Cape Town is prepared to do its share, and the provincial administration is also prepared to tackle the matter. Everyone who is concerned with this matter is ready to act. As I see it, there is no other suitable beach in the immediate vicinity in that part of the west coast. For that reason it is necessary that finality should be reached on the part of the Department and of the hon. the Minister.

Before I sit down, I cannot refrain also from thanking the divisional council of Cape Town for their co-operation as regards the implementation of the policy of the Government, as contrasted with the Municipality of Cape Town which is not very keen to assist in obtaining sea-side resorts for Coloureds. Because we are enjoying this goodwill on the part of that body, I think it is most necessary that the hon. the Minister should help us to obtain finality in this matter as soon as possible.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Malmesbury has put certain questions and suggestions to the hon. the Minister about the establishment of a nuclear power-station. To my mind there are two questions which arise. The one is whether it has now been finally decided that nuclear power-station will be in this locality.

This should have been discussed under the previous Vote.

Not necessarily. This is the whole point with that hon. Minister. As soon as we ask him a pertinent and direct question he says that it is not his decision. What is his function?

Order! The hon. member had the opportunity to discuss that matter within the last 24 hours.

Sir, I am discussing the functions of the hon. the Minister. What is the function of the Minister?

Order! The Mines Vote has been dealt with and the amount has been voted.

I still say that I do not know what the function of this hon. Minister is. Every time we put a question to him he says that it is somebody else's baby.

Order! The hon. member should have raised this matter under the Mines Vote.

Sir, I am merely replying to the hon. member for Malmesbury. He was the one who raised this matter of the nuclear power station.

Order! The hon. member did not raise the question of atomic energy.

At any rate, there is nothing to be gained by wasting more time on this. Let me come to something which I do not think the hon. the Minister can wriggle out of by saying that it falls under somebody else. Sir, I want to talk about the Coloured communities in Southern Natal. We have around the villages in Southern Natal—Richmond, Harding, Ixopo, Umzimkulu, Umzinto and various others,—settled Coloured communities who have been there for well over a hundred years. The actual numbers, unfortunately, are not obtainable, but I do know that they run into hundreds of families. These people are businessmen, farmers, labourers, shop assistants and artisans. In fact every single motor garage and every aspect of the building industry in that area is wholly dependent upon the Coloured people for artisans. Sir, they also form an integral part of these towns and villages and of their economic wellbeing. In many, as I have said, they are the only artisans and the Whites and the Bantu are dependent upon them. At the moment there is within those communities a terrible feeling of uncertainty, of being completely unsettled, although many of them have been there for over a hundred years. Many of them have title to property and many of them even own large farms. This uncertainty is being caused through failure by the Minister's Department to zone certain group areas for them, to set aside certain definite areas for the Coloured people. We find in this report that places like Richmond and Umzinto have been zoned, but that no provision has been made for the Coloureds. White areas have been zoned and in some instances Indian areas have been zoned. We find that in places like Ixopo, investigations were carried out as far back as 1964 but that no decision has yet been taken. I have here a letter received from the chairman of the Town Board of Richmond in Natal, which reads amongst other things—

They have asked me to do what I can about it. Sir, I want to know from the hon. the Minister what his plan is in this regard. As I said these people are living there at the moment with a feeling of insecurity. They feel that they have the sword of Damocles hanging over their heads; they have no permanence at all and they are continually faced with the threat of removal. Sir, it goes a bit further than merely a bit of dilatoriness on the part of the hon. the Minister's Department in actually zoning those areas. There are very strong rumours going round Natal that the idea of the Minister's Department is to remove those people from those townships and to concentrate all the Coloured people from the Southern area of Natal in one centre, and it is rumoured that they are going to be settled near Mariannhill, in the Pinetown district. I do not want the hon. the Minister to fob this off again and to say that this is not his responsibility. I wonder if he can give this Committee and the Coloured people of Southern Natal an answer to the following questions: First of all, is it his intention to proclaim group areas for the Coloured people in the townships of Southern Natal? If it is not his intention to proclaim those areas and to leave these Coloured communities in those settlements, where does he intend to resettle them? Thirdly, when will he resettle them? If his decision is to resettle them in one concentrated area, I want to point out to him that such a move can only be to the detriment of the communities of these villages as a whole. In fact, I would go so far as to say that some of those villages in Southern Natal will die; they will become ghost towns if the Coloured people are removed, because the white population cannot keep going on their own without these Coloured people. Sir, I want to make a plea to the hon. the Minister —I know, or at least I hope, that no decision has yet been taken—to leave these people where they are and not to remove them. This wholesale movement of people, which is usually accompanied by a cynical disregard for the feelings of a settled community, means that these communities are going to have to dig up roots which have grown deep into the ground over a period of a hundred years. Another question that I would like to put to the hon. the Minister is this: If they are removed and concentrated in one area, will employment opportunities be provided for all the employables before they are moved? Secondly, will schooling, hospital and other social amenities be provided before they are moved and settled in these areas? There is yet another aspect. Many of these people, as I have said, are farmers. They have their own farms. What is the hon. the Minister's intentions?

Surely the hon. member knows that is a function of the Department of Community Development.

With submission, Sir, here once again we have the hon. the Minister passing the buck.

I am not passing the buck.

What is the function of this Minister and his department if it is not the co-ordination and the planning of this sort of thing? The hon. the Minister's department has established an inter-departmental committee to consider this matter. His department has formed this committee, not the Department of Community Development. I submit that it is the Minister's function to co-ordinate this and I do not want this passing of the buck. We want straight answers to our questions. Sir, I was dealing with the position of these farmers. What is the attitude or his department or, if he does not want to accept responsibility, what is the attitude of his committee which is investigating this matter towards the farmers? Will they be compensated with farm land or are they going to be made to go into some other business or trade? If they are going to be compensated with farm land can the hon. the Minister tell us. Where are there areas set aside for Coloured farmers?

Sir, in the few minutes still at my disposal I want to raise one other point with the hon. the Minister where once before he ducked away when I tried to pin him down, and that is with regard to the question of the future of Hammarsdale. The hon. the Minister knows that I asked him about this once before and at that stage he appeared to be ill-informed. I made a plea the other day to his colleague, the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, to advise this Minister what he is doing at Hammarsdale so that this Minister, when he plans the development, will know where he is going and what he has to plan for. I want to ask this Minister the pertinent question now which I put to his colleague: Does he plan any further industrial development at Hammarsdale? We have had the reports of the Permanent Committee for the Location of industries and I know what they say, but I have the impression that both this hon. Minister and the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs do not know what the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration is doing, or that they did not know, and I hope that since I spoke to the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development they have been told, because the hon. the Minister is creating a flash point at Hammarsdale if he is going to settle in that area 100,000 Bantu people with an employment potential of between 30,000 and 40,000 with only 5,000 to 6,000 jobs. This appears to be the road on which this Government is moving, and I submit that it is the function of this hon. Minister to co-ordinate and to let us see a direct development. [Time expired.]

I should also like to make a submission. I do not think it is necessary to take any notice of that hon. member. One can talk nonsense, but as much as he talks—and what is more, he is presumptuous about it—I have not yet heard before.

Reply to what he said.

I have never yet seen anybody as presumptuous as he is when he bangs upon his bench and says: “I want to tell the Minister”, etc.

I want to say a few words about the people in my region. I want to speak about the middle region of South Africa, the major part of which consists of the Free State. The Free State has experienced considerable stress and strain recently, but I do not think it is fair to consider that area as one that is continually subject to stress and strain and in which there are constant witch-hunts. It is indeed an area with many problems because we do not have the same development potential that some other areas have. But I believe it is an area the development of which is perhaps as important as that of the more metropolitan areas.

As in many Western countries, the settlement factors which gave rise to the establishment of many small towns in the rural areas are of an historical nature. In the meantime the economic conditions have changed and other circumstances have come into play. Due regard must be had to these forces and influences in our present planning. The development of a sound rural economy is, where such development is indeed possible, a primary necessity for the community development of South Africa. It is necessary to such an extent that it requires special attention and assistance on the part of the State. The small number of urban complexes with their apparent wealth and material prosperity in contrast with a declining countryside will not, in the long run and seen from a national point of view, bring about sound community development. It is a fact that the prosperity of a community depends upon the community itself, but it is equally true that the standard of community development in any region is to a large extent determined by its economic development potential. It is a common statement that development has to spring from the community itself. I want to say that some communities have become depopulated to such an extent that it is no longer possible for development there to spring from the communities themselves. Decentralization in the direction of border areas is necessary, but subordinate to that there is the stimulation of economic vitality in these rural areas. A far more comprehensive development programme is needed. The inherent value of a vigorous rural population, as seen in a wide socio-economic perspective, cannot be measured in terms of statistics alone. This value must not be under-estimated or minimized. It is therefore very necessary that, while we are planning the exploitation of our material riches and the development of our industries so carefully, the rural sector should also receive its fair share in this national planning. Agricultural planning is very necessary in this regard.

The hon. member for Gordonia pleaded this afternoon for better communication from the central authority, for more effective communication from the higher authorities to local communities, and I should like to agree with him. I think we have a need for better communication. A democracy is only a democracy if it is a well-informed democracy.

We are not concerned exclusively with the development of our manufacturing industries; we are concerned with the development of human beings. After all, the development of the human material of an area is what is of most value. It is for this reason that I am concerned about this area, and I almost want to say the entire area from the Drakensberg south of the Vaal River and extending westwards, an area which is to a large extent considered to be the white heartland of South Africa. If we neglect these people and the fundamental qualities of faith and stability, something will be lacking in the human material on which our future has to be built. If we show a lack of initiative and enterprise now, we will realize later that we have lost our opportunities. Therefore I want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to give his serious attention to this area.

If I may also refer to the report of the Department of Planning, I cannot but say that I am a little disappointed with it, because I notice that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council consists of 33 members, only one of whom comes from the Free State. I want to say that I have the most pleasant memories of this department and that they have always been extremely helpful to me. An office of this Department in the Free State will mean a very great deal to us. I think the Minister can do something for us in this respect as well.

A socio-economic survey conducted in my constituency has brought four points to our notice. Firstly, there has been an increase in the total population of that area. Secondly, there has been a decrease in the white population of that area. Thirdly, the average age of the white population in that area has risen. In other words, one must deduce from that, fourthly, the age gap between Whites and non-Whites in that area is increasing. Hence my concern. The hon. the Minister of Finance made a speech during the past week in which he made an appeal to the Western Cape Province: Keep your people here; do not let them go to the Witwatersrand or the Vaal Triangle. If that appeal made by the Minister is applicable to the Western Cape, it is much more applicable to us in the Free State. It is essential for us to keep our human material there. We are asking the Department to assist us in this regard.

The hon. member for Fauresmith has raised a matter of a nature which the hon. the Minister will, no doubt, reply to. But I would say to him that, if he is looking for sympathy from us of the Cape Province, I think he must ask some of his colleagues to drop their territorial ambitions, as far as some portions of the Cape Province is concerned.

I do not think there is one of us in this House who does not wish to see the rapid development of our Republic based on sound economic planning, and development and progress which will ensure: firstly, our self-sufficiency in as many industrial fields as possible; secondly, a balanced economy; thirdly, the maximum use of the manpower which is available; and fourthly, and above all, an increase in the productivity and the economic well-being of all sections of our population. This hon. Minister's responsibility in the economic planning is of course very wide. It is far too wide for us to cover all its aspects in the time at our disposal. Whilst the department, through its advisory councils and committees to which the hon. member for Constantia has referred, is investigating a multitude of matters, I wish to-day to mention to the hon. the Minister what I believe to be some of the shortcomings in the planning, and matters in which the Government is failing to give adequate attention.

Only last week in this House the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development made a statement and emphasized what he termed “the interdependence” of African States and of states in the southern part of the African continent. I welcome such an approach and such a statement, because it is a departure from what has for a long time been the thinking in economic planning, so far as this country is concerned. I believe that this Minister has an immediate problem and a challenge which cannot be left unattended much longer. That is that in economic planning within the Republic of South Africa, there is the acceptance of the fact that there is an economic interdependence in South Africa of the racial groups, one upon the other. If we are facing economic planning, as the hon. the Minister was frank enough to tell us when we debated the Physical Planning Bill, we are planning to implement a policy, the Bantu policy of the Government, as a primary consideration in the siting of industrial development in this country. When we in the past have referred to this interdependence between the races, and the fact that they are interdependent daily upon each other in our industrial and commercial life, it was suggested from the other side that it is integration. I hope that now that the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has said that the states of Africa are interdependent, we are not now going to have that considered as integration between the black states and the Republic of South Africa. I need not enlarge upon the extent. The hon. the Minister is well aware of the contribution to our industrial and economic life which is being made by the non-Whites in this country. Of the persons actively employed in industries and in commerce, they form a section which bears a relationship to the proportion they constitute of the population in this country of ours. But their preparation to play their part in the future is not receiving, I believe, sufficient attention. A professed creed of separate development has so often been used as a reason, more than as a positive industrial and commercial reality. The more we progress as a nation, the more the responsibility rests upon the Coloureds and the Bantu people to fill more technical and responsible occupations.

The hon. the Minister of Planning in October last year issued a statement, which I think was welcomed, that at last there was some attempt to co-ordinate the question of investigation into medical education. He issued a statement that a committee had been appointed. If I may say so, its composition of men directly interested in and concerned with education, is one which gives pleasure to those concerned with this matter. This committee has been appointed to make a thorough investigation into all aspects of further medical training, and to consider the medical training of Whites and non-Whites simultaneously. He knows what the target and the need is, not only in the medical sphere but in other spheres as well. When we look at the present position, we find the fact staring us in the face that in all the Bantu university colleges there are only 897 students who have obtained a matriculation standard. Less than 500 matriculants are being added every year. When one looks at the Coloureds one finds that in 1967 only 257 Coloureds obtained exemption passes out of 1,500 enrolled matriculants. So approximately 750 Bantu and Coloureds were available for post-matric study at the beginning of this year. That is the total source from which we are to draw the executive and professional classes for the non-white people of this country. Separate development becomes completely empty when we look at this state of affairs; it becomes a theory and not a policy. This is the position we find after 20 years of Nationalist rule and of separate development. I want to say that failure to plan adequately for the use of this manpower will have serious results. We must use it more. The Minister knows to what extent in industry and commerce we rely on the non-white manpower, and we are increasing our reliance on them. Unless this is put right we face grave dangers.

What would you say is the remedy?

I attempted to suggest a remedy to the Ministers who deal with the different race groups, but as far as this Minister is concerned I am saying to him that the problem is far more extensive than can be solved by presenting a blue-print because the blue-print does not contain the infra-structure of which we hear so much from the other side. It goes for the Whites as well. Too many of our white children are not receiving the maximum education which they should receive. They are leaving school for economic and other reasons. I mention this because I believe it is a grave problem which we must face and there is no easy solution which one can give across the floor of the House. It is alarming to see the progress is so very slow, as it has been.

I turn to another matter, one which I regret has not been taken further this session, and that is the matter to which the Minister referred in the Other Place and to which he gave attention in the form of a draft Bill, namely some method of co-ordination of medical research. The information given by the hon. member was quite alarming. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to reply fully to the various matters raised by the hon. member who spoke before me, except to say that it should be very clear to him and to anyone else that it has never been the policy of this side of the House that the various races should not rely upon one another in some or other respect in the economic field. However, this is a political question which can be argued on another occasion. I think that this is an old piece of criticism which the hon. member levelled at us repeatedly here this afternoon. I think that if the hon. member considered very carefully what he had said this afternoon about the alleged lack of planning on the part of the Government in respect of the non-Whites, namely the Bantu, Coloureds and Indians, and if he reconsidered what he had said in reply to the hon. the Minister's question, he would honestly have to admit that the particulars which have been supplied repeatedly in this House, indicate that this Government has gone and is going out of its way in respect of the planning of secondary education, in particular, for the Coloured groups in South Africa. I cannot understand how the hon. member wants to bring this reproach against the hon. the Minister into a debate on planning. Only a few days ago the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education silenced the hon. member for Houghton, in particular, with comprehensive arguments and statistics in respect of education and secondary education for the Bantu. I think the hon. member would do well to read the reports of that debate.

Are you satisfied with the figures that were furnished?

Yes, I accept the particulars and figures which the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education furnished. I know that he would give no figures and particulars to this Committee which are not correct and which he does not regard as correct to the best of his knowledge.

There is another matter which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister, and that is the establishment of a faculty of engineering at a certain university. In recent years this matter has become very important, particularly in view of the acute and continually increasing shortage of qualified engineers in South Africa. One thinks of a Department such as the Department of Water Affairs, which has a shortage of between 70 and 80 civil engineers. It is essential that this shortage be supplemented as soon as possible with a view to the welfare and the economic development of our country. In this connection I want to refer to certain findings and recommendations of the Straszacker Commission, which was appointed by the Government as far back as 1957. The Commission's report was published in 1965. The Commission stated, inter alia, that the number of persons with bachelor degrees in pure and applied sciences stood at 42 per cent in respect of the period 1933 to 1952, and in respect of the period 1953 to 1962 at 47 per cent of all first degrees. The number of engineers with bachelor degrees in pure and applied sciences decreased from about 25 per cent of the total for the period 1933 to 1952 to about 19 per cent for the period 1953 to 1962. On the other hand the percentage of students with degrees in pure sciences increased rapidly during the past decade, namely from 24 per cent to 39 per cent of the total number in pure and applied sciences. The Commission found that it was essential that the percentage in respect of engineers be increased to 25 per cent as soon as possible.

The ratio of the number of engineers in South Africa per 100,000 of the total population is the lowest as compared with 19 other industrial countries. Per 100,000 of the white population only we are, however, the fourth highest in the world. We then have 10 engineers for every 100,000 members of our white population, while in Canada there are 12 and in the U.S.A. 18, and Russia has the highest figure with 32 graduate engineers for every 100,000 of the population. What is important in our case is this. If the Whites and the urban non-Whites are taken into account, that is to say, in the urban complexes, where our industrial development is, then only Greece, Portugal, Spain and Australia have fewer graduates in these 19 industrial countries which have been considered by way of comparison. It is therefore essential, also according to the finding of this Commission, for the more intensive industrialization of our country and especially with a view to the development of the rural border area industries that serious attention be given to the question of engineers in South Africa.

I also want to put it to the Minister that the Government should consider establishing an engineering faculty at an Afrikaans university. There are already three engineering faculties at three English-language universities and two at two Afrikaans-language universities, but the statistics compiled indicate that the new faculty should preferably be at an Afrikaans university. When these statistics were compiled about six years ago, it appeared that of all the first-year students at the Afrikaans universities 4 per cent were studying engineering, while at the English universities 14 per cent were studying engineering. Another interesting fact was that the larger Afrikaans universities regularly attracted more than the average number of students with first-class certificates, while with the exception of the University of Cape Town the English universities drew fewer than the average number of students with first-class certificates. They nevertheless have this high percentage of first-year students interested in engineering. This therefore indicates that in our country, especially among the Afrikaans-speaking section of the population, there is unutilized university potential which must be harnessed in the scientific field. There are more of them in the Afrikaans sector than in the English sector.

The Commission also found the following. Measured in terms of the gross income per capita in the various Western countries and in an attempt to increase production by 2 per cent in order to double it in 30 years, graduated engineers will have to be increased by 1977 from the present 10 per 100,000 of the white population to 27 per 100,000, that is to say, by 50 to 75 per cent. This increase must inevitably be supplied mainly by the Afrikaans universities. The Commission also found that during the period 1958 to 1962. 1,234 students qualified in engineering at English universities, as opposed to 383 at Afrikaans universities. If we look at the particulars which we receive from the universities, it appears that too large a percentage of Afrikaans-speaking students at Afrikaans-language universities qualified in other fields instead of entering the engineering field, in which there is such a tremendous shortage in our country. Therefore I want to ask the Minister if it is not possible for the Government to decide as soon as possible, or to appoint a commission to advise the Government, at which university this engineering faculty is to be established. I also want to plead for the Government and this commission to decide that this faculty be established at an Afrikaans-language university.

Mr. Chairman, I am not standing up to reply to the debate, because it is too late in the day for that, but since the hon. member for Potchefstroom has raised the question of the training of engineers, I should like to make a statement in this connection which may save the Committee further discussion of this subject. It is a statement in connection with the appointment of a committee of inquiry into additional facilities for the training of engineers.

As a result of the report of the commission of inquiry into the training methods for university degrees in engineering, namely the Straszacker Commission, and the comments of the Scientific Advisory Council on that—particularly with reference to further training facilities for engineers—as well as a few memoranda and divergent opinions which were brought to my notice, the Cabinet considered the matter and it was decided to instruct a committee to investigate the matter under the following terms of reference, namely, firstly, to institute a thorough investigation into all aspects of the need for additional training facilities in engineering, and secondly, if additional training facilities are needed, to determine what the nature of such facilities should be and where and when they should be created. The following factors, inter alia, are to be considered: (a) the effect of such new facilities on the occupation, staff and extent and quality of research of existing faculties; (b) economic as well as student potential from the geographic vicinities and potential centres for efficient expansion of the training concerned; (c) the economic and educational implications of new facilities in respect of basic training for engineers in the pure sciences.

The following persons have been appointed to the Committee and have kindly agreed to carry out this task and to report to me as soon as possible. The chairman is Mr. A. W. S. Schuman (Federale Mynbou), and the other members are Professor D. W. de Vos (University of Pretoria), Mr. R. Stander (Consulting Engineer of Cape Town), Mr. N. Smit (AMCOR), Dr. S. J. P. K. van Heerden (Deputy Scientific Adviser), Dr. Bux Fouche, (Sanlam), Mr. J. C. Steenkamp (Union Steel Corporation), and Dr. N. Stutterheim (C.S.I.R.).

Mr. Chairman, I wish to raise a matter here this afternoon with the hon. the Minister which has not been discussed at any great length so far in this debate, and that is the question of the planning of group areas. I raise the question particularly to point out to the Minister the difficulties that occur in the planning of group areas in this country. One is often left with the impression that group areas are planned in South Africa with little regard to the human feelings and human emotions involved.

If the Minister feels I am being unfriendly in this regard then it is because the planning is often unfriendly to the people affected by it. The Minister knows that during the war in Europe many people were moved out of air attack areas and it was realized that the moves would have certain effects on the lives of the people concerned. A committee investigated the problems attached to the actual removals, for instance, from the London area to the country areas. I want to suggest that little consideration is being given in South Africa today when removals take place or group areas are proclaimed. This is highlighted by the fact that in Durban, where many group areas have been proclaimed for Indians, little consideration seems to have been given to the fact that the Indian lives a different kind of life to that of the European. He requires a larger house because the average Indian family consists of 7.7 people whilst the average European family consists of 4.5 people. This point seems to be so often overlooked, and as a result we find that an area like Chatsworth in Durban is almost over-crowded before pen is put to paper declaring that to be an Indian group area. I feel that very little consideration is given to the race groups involved and to their different modes of living when this sort of planning is undertaken.

I notice from the report that the Minister says the Coloured group area in Barberton is being accepted, but it will under no circumstances be extended. How does the Minister propose not to extend the group area at Barberton, as well as in places like Pietersburg, Zeerust, and so on? He says only small Coloured communities live there and the areas must be discontinued and discouraged. Does the Minister think those people will not measure in numbers? How is he going to stop the population growth of the Indians and the Coloureds in these areas set aside for them? I say that none of the present group areas will in time be large enough to contain all the people whom he proposes to settle there.