Yesterday the other side raised the objection that this debate had started immediately after my Budget speech. I do not want to attach a wrong interpretation to a person’s words, but I should like to know whether I understood the hon. the Chief Whip of the Opposition correctly as having said that I as the Minister had insisted on this, because I just want to make it very clear that I as the Minister did not insist on that. It was an arrangement quite beyond my control. I was informed that this was an arrangement which the hon. the Leader of the House had made with the Whip, and that the arrangement had been accepted by the hon. Whips of the Opposition. Therefore I just want to make it clear that I am not to blame.

The Leader of the House insisted on it.

Yes, but it was accepted by you and therefore you should not level this accusation at me, because it is really none of my concern.

I am the guilty man.

I want to apologize to the hon. member for Germiston (District) for having passed him over in my reply to the Second Reading debate. I should like to reply to him now.

The hon. member for Germiston (District) proposed that the roneod forms being sent to those applying for telephones, should be done away with as they are so impersonal. I want to tell the hon. member that the use of roneod forms is necessary in order to eliminate the large amount of work which would otherwise have been necessary, i.e. that of composing individual letters to applicants and of having them typed and checked. However, we agree that the roneod letters do not always look very neat, and I gladly undertake to go into this matter with a view to improvement in the future. In the second place, the hon. member said that officials were not prepared to furnish their names when members of the public were discussing telephone problems with them. It is departmental practice for officials employed in certain telephone departments not to furnish their names. In cases where the name of a junior official employed in a department which controls the provision of telephones becomes known, it may lead to malpractices. This may also cause disruption in certain sections, if one person, whose name is known, is continually being called to the telephone, especially once that person has changed jobs. Nevertheless, we shall go into the matter to see whether an improvement can be effected. We shall see what can be done in this regard.

The hon. member for Vanderbijlpark referred to the F.M. reception in his area. If the names and addresses of listeners experiencing problems in regard to F.M. reception are forwarded to the S.A.B.C., the complaints in question will be investigated. Listeners are also requested to make use of aerials on their radios in order to derive the maximum benefit from F.M. transmissions. If the hon. member forwards complaints to the S.A.B.C., the matter will be investigated.

The hon. member for Simonstown, who unfortunately cannot be here this afternoon and who has apologized, referred to the salary improvements and said that what the Post Office officials had been granted, was very little. Last night I explained the position very clearly. I do not know on what grounds this assertion is made, because the same conditions that apply in regard to the improvement of salaries in the Public Service, i.e. in respect of the 6 per cent pensionable allowance and the subsequent increase to 10 per cent, do of course apply in the case of the Post Office as well. There is, therefore, no question whatsoever of smaller salary improvements having been effected in the case of the Post Office officials. In the course of this Session the hon. member for Orange Grove asked me a question in this regard, and I replied that I had given the staff the undertaking that I would gradually bring about a salary and wage structure in the Post Office which would be adapted to the distinctive circumstances of the Post Office, and in these Estimates I have in fact made a start with it. Hon. members will see, when the scales are made known, that considerable improvements have been effected in the salary and wage structure of certain departments. Of course, I did say that these improvements would be effected gradually. Rome was not built in one day, and we shall have to effect improvements gradually as and when the available money, which of course is always a restrictive factor, permits our doing so.

The hon. member for Simonstown also referred to the house ownership scheme. I can tell him that this will involve considerable benefits for the staff. Persons in the Post Office service who earn up to and including R3,000 and who have existing loans, will be subsidized so that they would only have to pay 4 per cent interest on those housing loans. Persons earning between R3,001 and R7,500 will be subsidized to this extent, i.e. that they would only pay 5 per cent on their housing loans. Of course, this does not only apply to existing loans, but also to loans contracted in the future.

The hon. member for Vryheid asked that a certain place which was about to be considered for the provision of certain capital facilities, had to be visited by the planners this year, before such provision was commenced, and that at the same time the M.P. had to be contacted so as to ensure that the tempo and the extent of the development there would not be more rapid and more extensive than was originally thought to be the case in order that the necessary adjustments may be made. I want to tell the hon. member that the proposal is a logical one, but that it is unfortunately not a practicable one. Planning is a lengthy and continuous process and, although minor adjustments can sometimes be made at the eleventh hour, substantial changes are usually impossible at an advanced stage. The effectiveness of planning depends to a large extent on how correctly needs have been determined and the degree of accuracy with which anticipated growth, etc., can be projected. The Post Office’s physical planning embraces projects which have to be planned well in advance and cannot be amended over night, such as buildings and the design and manufacture of sophisticated equipment. However, we can give the hon. member the assurance that with the new dispensation we are geared for adapting the pattern of planning to our specific needs and for displaying as much flexibility as possible in doing so.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) said, in the first place, that the Post Office had to straighten out its priorities in regard to telecommunication planning. He referred here to places such as Mandini and three other places, and said that they had been provided, at considerable cost, with automatic telephone services, whereas there were long waiting lists at other large places and problems were being experienced in large centres such as Durban in having local calls put through. Now I want to tell the hon. member that he is apparently labouring under a misconception. His statement concerning the Post Office’s priorities in regard to telephone planning is quite unjustified. The automatic dialling to the smaller towns to which he referred, was not introduced in order to improve the position at those exchanges, but for the very purpose of alleviating the pressure on the trunk exchanges in the major centres to which he referred. Direct dialling to those smaller towns has had the effect that members of the public can handle their own calls to those places and consequently this leaves the staff in the major trunk exchanges free to run those exchanges more smoothly. In the second place, the hon. member said that in cases where a trunk call can be dialled automatically and the person on the other side is making a local call, it is not possible for the exchange to break into the local conversation. In particular he also referred to calls which people from other places wanted to make to the hostel at Richmond, and said that when they dialled the exchange at Richmond they were informed that the hostel telephone was engaged. As regards the hostel at Richmond, the position is that calls which are intended for the hostel and are dialled directly by the public from other places to the Richmond exchange, cannot interrupt calls that are in progress on the hostel telephone, since the person who dialled the exchange can easily do so again later on, just as if it were a local call. In any case, it does not cost him anything if he only dials the exchange and cannot get through to the hostel telephone because it is engaged. To interrupt calls is a disruption for persons who are conducting a conversation. Where there are no direct public dialling facilities to an exchange and calls from other places still have to be handled by the operators on all the exchanges along the route, all those operators along the route are concerned with that call and they have to keep the route clear so as to be able to put that call through. Under such circumstances it is necessary to interrupt local conversations for the incoming trunk calls, but not when, as is the case at more and more places to-day, a trunk call can be dialled by the public in the same way as a local call can be made. If members of the public are experiencing too much inconvenience as a result of the hostel telephone being engaged all the time, the alternative is for the hostel to apply for an additional telephone.

There are in actual fact not many other matters to which I need reply. As usual the hon. member for Orange Grove repeated some of the things said in the course of the Second Reading debate. He said that the Opposition was highly delighted about the assurance I had given that I would not hesitate to take action if the S.A.B.C. were using programmes for party political purposes.

Let us see what course matters take in practice.

Yes. I grant the hon. member all the pleasure and all the delight he derives from my assurance. The hon. member said that he would write down my words in block letters, and I now want to suggest that he should put that piece of paper under his pillow every night and sleep on it if it would help him to drive away at night the Broederbond bogey he sees in the S.A.B.C. If he does that, I grant him that pleasure. May he by doing so rid himself of his political nightmares.

As regards the programme “Current Affairs”, the Opposition should try to be a little consistent, no matter how difficult this may be for them. Just listen to what the hon. member for Orange Grove said at the Committee Stage last night. He said the following: “Would the hon. the Minister admit that at present a certain interpretation is being given to the policy of the Nationalist Party, an interpretation which does not tally at all with the policy of the Nationalist Party of the past, that ‘numbers do not count’ is the policy which is being advocated now, and that the S.A.B.C. is going out of its way to defend that policy?” In other words, it is being suggested all the time that the S.A.B.C. is adopting the “verkrampte” attitude. But here the statement is being made by the hon. member for Orange Grove that the S.A.B.C. is defending the Government in its so-called “verligtheid”.

Is it an enlightened policy to say “numbers do not count”.

I suppose it is an enlightened policy if one departs from the Party’s principles, not so? I want to read out what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition had to say. I quote (translation)—

Hear, hear!

The hon. the Leader was not listening when I read this quotation. The charge made by the hon. member for Orange Grove was in fact that because the National Party had departed from its previous course, the Current Affairs programme was in fact a great champion of the National Party in this “verligte” condition in which it finds itself. Both assertions cannot be true. According to the hon. member there is no difference whatsoever between the “verkramptheid” and the “verligtheid” of the National Party. The Opposition should at least try to argue about these matters in a somewhat logical manner. They cannot level this double accusation at the S.A.B.C. and then expect me to take logical action.

The hon. member for Orange Grove referred to an excerpt Current Affairs had quoted from a speech by the Prime Minister in the Other Place. Then the hon. member said, “Of course, this is not party politics; this is merely a leader of a political party who says that”. But I want to remind the hon. member that the hon. the Prime Minister is not merely a leader of a political party. He is the Prime Minister of this country. This makes a rather big difference. I also want to remind the hon. member, as I said last night, that the policy of apartheid has now been the policy of this country for the past 21 years. With each election the Government is returned to power on the basis of this policy to govern this country for a further period of five years. The trouble with the United Party is that since 1948 they have never accepted that they no longer govern this country, but that it is the National Party that has governed this country for the past 21 years. If the United Party regards the national interests of South Africa, as they are interpreted in Current Affairs, as being propaganda for the National Party, this is the best proof that the National Party is still following the right course for serving the national interests of South Africa.

Then the hon. member for Orange Grove said that we had different criteria of comparison. I can really say, “Thank God that this is so”. This is the case. The National Party and the United Party have different criteria of comparison. I on the one hand and the hon. member for Orange Grove on the other hand definitely have very different criteria of comparison. Now I just want to show hon. members, especially hon. members opposite, how easily that hon. member for Orange Grove can misinterpret one’s words. In my reply to the Second Reading debate last night I said the following—

In the first speech the hon. member for Orange Grove made during the Committee Stage, he said—

After all, I did speak clearly.

I was concerned about postal tariffs in general.

Yes, but you misquote. It seems to me as though this is in the hon. member’s nature and that with the best will in the world he cannot act differently. By way of interjection I tried to set the hon. member right. At the time I said—

In this way I tried to clear up the misconception under which the hon. member was labouring—I take it that it was a misconception and that he did not do so wilfully. However, immediately after that the hon. member said—

What admission did I make?

We shall see what happens.

The hon. member should not try to get away from this now. This is the interpretation you gave to my words after I had tried to set you right. One can say something now and the very next moment the hon. member puts into one’s mouth words one simply did not use. The hon. member also said—

Here the hon. member once again gave an incorrect interpretation to my words. When the hon. member spoke for the first time yesterday, he said that this existing telephone shortage was an unprecedented record in the history of the South African Postal Service. I reminded the hon. member for Orange Grove of what Minister Mushet had said in 1946, according to what this hon. member had written in Die Kruithoring. At that time the hon. member was still immature and to me he does not seem to have matured since. The Minister was supposed to have said that 45,000 people were waiting for telephones and that the backlog would not be made up until 1951. The hon. member said that these facts were included in the first miserable speech made by the new Minister of Posts, Mr. Mushet, who had said that the telephone shortage which had developed under the regime of the United Party would grow until 1951, and that the figure would only show a downward trend then. [Interjections.] The hon. member must listen now. In 1951 there was a shortage of 102,000 telephones. The hon. member now wants to suggest that it was very naive of me to mention it because a National Party Government was in power at the time. But as far back as 1946 Minister Mushet predicted that the shortage of telephones would only begin to show a downward trend by 1951. Surely, the hon. member knows that the position during the last year of the United Party regime was simply terrible. Surely, he knows that at that time the shortage was 79,000 already. The total number of telephones at the time was only 318.000 and in comparison with that the shortage, expressed as a percentage, was 24.8 per cent. What is the position to-day? To-day there is in fact a shortage of 72,000 but …

Talk about the Post Office instead.

The hon. member is in difficulties—that is why he wants me to talk about the Post Office now. As I have said, the shortage of telephones is 72,000 to-day. The total number of telephones in use is 1,310,000. If we contrast this with the shortage of 72,000, we get a shortage, expressed as a percentage, of only 5.5 per cent. How does this compare with the shortage of 24.8 per cent in the last year of the United Party regime? In spite of this the hon. member comes along here and in a booming voice he proclaims that the current shortage of telephones is unprecedented in our history. He ought to be ashamed of himself for making such a wretched and untrue assertion. “What about the shortage of 72,000 telephones?” resounded like a refrain from the mouths of hon. members opposite. All they are doing, is to fix their minds on the shortage only. They do not look at the Estimates, because the answer is to be found there. There they will see what we are doing in regard to telecommunications in South Africa. If they had consulted the Estimates, they would have seen that we had spent R39.5 million this year on expanding our telecommunication system—the largest amount ever. But, what is more, in the year that lies ahead we are planning to spend R52 million, almost R13 million more, on the expansion of our telecommunication system. Surely, here we have the answer they are looking for. And yet the hon. member for Orange Grove says that this is not a courageous Budget. I say that it is more than courageous—it is a vigorous attempt at wiping out the backlog in telephones. Let me tell hon. members that if we wanted to wipe out the telephone shortage over the past five years, we could very easily have done so. But that would have been very short-sighted of us, and I shall tell you why. If we had applied all available money and means for this purpose only, there would of course not have been a telephone shortage to-day. But by doing so our entire telephone system would have collapsed as the outmoded manual operating system would not have been able to carry all the traffic. In addition to that the Post Office would have had to employ a large number of telephone operators throughout the country for putting through local and trunk calls.

Of course, apart from the fact that we would not have been able to find them, we would not have been able to provide all of them with housing, even if we could find them. At the moment 76 per cent of our telecommunication system has already been automized. We are trying to make this 100 per cent by 1980. This brings me to the staff. Hon. members of the Opposition have been wanting to know all day what we are going to do in regard to our staff shortage. Well, here is the answer now. At the moment the degree of automation we have already been able to introduce, has eliminated the services of 24,000 operators. By 1980, when we expect to have the entire system automized, the saving will amount to 36,000 in all.

Mr. Chairman, I do not think that there is anything else to which I can reply. In conclusion I could just express the hope that all these things will not be raised once again in this afternoon’s debate. I take it that the hon. member for Orange Grove has in the meantime had the opportunity of glancing at the Estimates and making a study of them. If he has done so, we may at least expect him to put intelligent questions this afternoon on what is happening in the Post Office.

Mr. Chairman, I leave the hon. the Minister to the hon. member for Orange Grove. He is quite capable of defending himself. I should like to return to the speech of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) who spoke when the House adjourned last night. All he did was to praise the S.A.B.C. As a matter of fact, he seems to find the S.A.B.C. so intriguing that it appears that he spends all his time listening to the radio.

That’s all he is good for.

But he must remember that tastes differ and that what is sauce for the goose is not always sauce for the gander. As we have no TV, the radio is our only source of on-the-spot information and the only source of entertainment in our homes. Consequently, it must be of the best—unbiased and of the highest quality. The Broadcasting Corporation can afford it.

At the outset, however, I want to be honest and congratulate the Minister on his first autonomous Budget. We are looking forward to the introduction next year of the popular Budget he has spoken about. It is also my great pleasure to congratulate and thank the Postmaster-General and all his staff for the wonderful service they are rendering to the public despite the strained staff condition under which they had to work during the year.

I wish to mention a few matters that I raised previously. The Minister has not yet replied to them. I am referring to the Pietermaritzburg telephone exchange extension. The original Estimate in 1965 was R200,000. The revised Estimate approved in 1968-’69, was R268,000. The present Estimate has increased to R275,000. At the end of the present financial year R265,000 will have been spent, leaving a balance of R10,000 for the 1970-’71 financial year. When it first appeared in 1965 it was an urgent necessity; three years later it had not yet been commenced. It was only during the 1967-’68 financial year that it was commenced. On 23rd August, 1966, the then Minister informed me that it would be completed during the next few years. In answer to a further question he stated that a “few” years would be 1½ to two years. Pietermaritzburg is a border area and one of particular importance according to the Minister of Community Development. The tempo of expansion with the present industrial development is ceaseless. Thousands of flats, dwellings and businesses are continuously rising and telephones are of the utmost importance. On 12th March, 1968, the Minister informed me that the new exchange would not be able to meet the backlog of telephones, but on 5th June, 1967, the then Minister informed the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) by letter No. M.1/2/67 that the extension to the exchange under construction had been planned to make provision for approximately 17 years. He stated in his letter that there would be an increase of 2,000 lines, bringing it up to 3,800 lines, but on 7th February, 1969, the Minister informed me that the new exchange would now provide for 5,286 additional lines instead of 3,328, and that the exchange was expected to meet requirements until the middle of 1973, based on present developments. Sir, this is now becoming a Chinese puzzle and the Minister must please elucidate it and give me the true position and the figures. May I ask at this stage where the equipment for this exchange is? Has it been ordered yet? What is the promised and expected delivery date? What is the cost thereof? Where is provision made for payment for this equipment?

The next matter that worries me and the pockets of Pietermaritzburg subscribers is this disparity in telephone charges between Durban and Pietermaritzburg, and Pietermaritzburg and Durban. If a Pietermaritzburg subscriber has four calls, one each of three, six, nine and 12 minutes to Durban, it costs him 42 cents more for 30 minutes duration than it costs the subscriber speaking from Durban to Pietermaritzburg. On 5th March, 1968, the Minister informed me that this is merely of a transitional nature and will be eliminated as fast as possible. Surely this is now becoming a serious matter and not a laughing matter. We cannot continue fleecing the public for another two years in this way, according to the Minister’s reply on the 19th March, 1968. I suggest that arrangements be set in motion to equalize the charges between the two cities as soon as possible. Sir, whilst we are on the question of exchanges, the Minister informed me that the question of taking over the Durban Corporation’s private telephone system was under consideration. As a result, an article appeared in the Daily News of the 14th February, 1969, setting out certain grievances of the staff of that exchange. The present Estimates reflect that the telephone system of the Durban Corporation is now being taken over as from the 1st April, 1969. What I want to ask the hon. the Minister is whether all the grievances of the officials who are being taken over have been settled to their satisfaction—I repeat: to their satisfaction? According to recent Press statements this is not the case. It would be interesting to learn what the Minister is doing in this matter. Have all the technicians agreed to come over to the Post Office?

Then I would like to ask whether local calls all cost the same irrespective of their duration? I should also like to know what arrangements, if any, are being made to have congratulatory telegrams delivered to bridal couples on Saturday afternoons throughout the Republic—a very necessary and important service to the public, especially the younger generation. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) referred to the excellent speech which the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) made in this House last night, and he stated, inter alia, that tastes differ, from which I deduced that he is not satisfied with the programmes of the S.A.B.C. I want to elaborate on that theme, because I found on perusal of the S.A.B.C. Bulletin that the S.A.B.C. also, to an exceptional degree, meets the needs of the United Party in particular. I am referring here to a programme “Calling all Farmers”. I think the hon. member for Newton Park would benefit tremendously if he listened to that programme.

Then he would perhaps learn something about farming.

He would undoubtedly be able to make a more constructive contribution to debates in this House on farming matters. When the United Party is in a nostalgic mood and longs for bygone days, then I cannot think of a better programme than “Op Soek na Gister”. Then there are undoubtedly those who suffer from calcification and sterile thought processes, and here I am referring to the programme “Talking of Medicine”. I also have an idea that some of them, after a heavy day in the political arena here in the House of Assembly, seek an escape and recreation, and for that purpose I cannot think of a better programme than “Current Affairs”. In addition they will at the same time take cognisance of the existence of the programme “Calling back the Past”. There are undoubtedly quite a number of them who need handbooks on good manners. What about a programme like “So maak mens”? I am thinking here of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) in particular. The hon. member for Telephone Shortages will undoubtedly benefit from the programme “Your Hate Parade”. And what about a programme like “Leave it to Van der Merwe” for the hon. member for Durban (Point)? And then, last but not least, to achieve perfect balance—and here I am thinking in particular of the hon. member for Port Natal—what about “Talking of English” and “Afrikaans vir die Immigrant”? Sir, the S.A.B.C. Bulletin itself offers many informative articles. In particular I want to recommend to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) the article “Die Man wat nie wou Praat nie”. This taciturn, lovable, reserved and modest member will undoubtedly benefit from that article. Since the United Party is quite determined to sit on this side of the House one day, they must read “On the Rocks”. I am convinced that if we were to page through the S.A.B.C. Bulletin for a while, we would find that ample provision is made there for the taste, and particularly for the needs of the United Party.

The Post Office has emerged strongly as a development partner. In certain regions and cities the Post Office is spending considerable amounts, and I find it strange that hon. members opposite omitted to mention this. For example, the expenditure of an amount of R1,400,000 is being envisaged in Hillbrow, R200,000 in Pietermaritzburg, R28,000 in Pinetown, etc. These things are passing unnoticed by those members, and it is consequently the duty of hon. members on this side to bring these matters to the attention of the voters. The spending of money by the Post Office generates development in those areas as well. Not only is the Post Office rendering essential services, but it is also undoubtedly generating optimism and, last but not least, confidence in the Government. This brings me to Bloemfontein. We are grateful to take cognisance of the fact that in the near future buildings to the value of R1,254,950 are going to be erected in Bloemfontein. This would undoubtedly enable Bloemfontein to serve its hinterland to much better effect. For its development Bloemfontein is particularly dependent upon its tertiary sector, and education, trade and other services, and that is why this announcement is of great importance. Previously we heard about this in the Press, but now we have heard more details. It will undoubtedly lead to Bloemfontein coming into its own to better effect as a national service point.

While we are dealing with large amounts it is also with pleasure that we take cognisance of the considerable surplus of more than R5 million. This alone is proof of good management. This also causes me to feel free to point out to the hon. the Minister that, although we have already received considerable concessions from him in respect of radio licences, particularly for our aged and our blind, we would appreciate it if, whenever it is possible, and if further good results can be achieved as a result of the good business sense of our dynamic Minister, we can receive a general and uniform concession in respect of the people I have just mentioned. This will bring them a considerable degree of alleviation because for most of these people the radio is a source of entertainment and relaxation.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just spoken has indicated that at last they have found something for the great army of unemployed Nationalist M.P.s to do, namely to sit and listen to the radio all day and night. The hon. members for Port Elizabeth (Central) and Bloemfontein (West) apparently have occupied themselves doing nothing else, judging by their knowledge of programmes. But I am afraid the hon. member for Bloemfontein (West) would not get a job as a comedian; I have heard people laughing much more heartily at Current Affairs than we did at his speech to-day.

Last night the hon. the Minister asked me whether I was going to thank him. I am not going to disappoint him—I do not intend to thank him. I have no intention and no need to thank that Minister. The reason is easy to find; the reason is he has 120 mbongos who have been thanking him for the last five hours, so why should I waste my time thanking him?

Order! Only the two official languages may be used in this House. What does that word mean?

Mr. Chairman, I submit the word “imbongo” will be found in any modern English dictionary. It is a praise singer adopted into South African idiomatic English as being a paid praise singer.

Order! This word has been disallowed before and I ask the hon. member to withdraw that word and substitute another word for it.

I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman. I say he has enough praise singers. We in the Opposition are here to point out the weaknesses and the failures. It is our job to try to get better Government for South Africa. It is our job to try to shake this Government into doing some of the things that are necessary in the interest of our country. We have not come here to thank the Minister. We leave that to those members who have their eye, even if it is very far over the horizon, on possible Deputy Ministerships and boards. We are here to do our job.

I want to start immediately by dealing with this facile argument of the hon. the Minister in regard to telephones. The hon. the Minister said that one cannot expand at short notice. It is on record. What does the Minister mean by “short notice”? He said first that in 1946 the peak shortage was estimated to be in 1951. That is 18 years ago. Now, in 1969, he tells us that it is estimated that we will reach the peak in 1971. In other words, after 18 years he has suddenly discovered that there is going to be a shortage of telephones. I think he is like the hon. members who have been praising him here for so long. They are used to sending messages on drums and sending letters by forked sticks. They are not used to picking up telephones or being able to live in the twentieth century. If the Minister has discovered this state of affairs at short notice, then he must have been living in a dream world. For years, in fact, for the last 21 years, people have been screaming about the telephone shortage. Now it is going to be supplied “at short notice”, because the Government has just discovered the shortage. What did the Minister give as an excuse? In 1946 there was a shortage under the United Party Government. Yes, there was a shortage here in South Africa, and there was a shortage of staff, too. The hon. member for Germiston (District), who had a lot to say about having been in the Post Office, was one of those who was working there at that time. The reason was that one could not be choosy in those days, because the people who were worth something to South Africa were fighting for South Africa. They were laying telephone lines in the deserts and in the mountains of Italy. There were telephones there and that is why there was a shortage in South Africa. I am now going to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his Department. Since those days we have got a much better quality of worker in the Post Office than some we used to have during the war and in the immediate post-war years.

I now want to deal with what I believe is a very significant statement which was made by the hon. the Minister this afternoon. It is a statement to which I now want to draw specific attention and which I believe is one on which there will be much debate in the months and years that lie ahead. The Minister said clearly and unequivocally this afternoon that a “verligte” “een is wat afdwaal van Nasionale Partybeleid”.

No, that is your contention. Do not misquote me again.

I ask the hon. the Minister to check his Hansard. He said, in defending “Current Affairs”, that we accuse this programme of being a verkrampte mouthpiece and then he said that we had complained that it is supporting the Government. That is “verlig” and to be a “verligte”, said the hon. the Minister, “is om af te dwaal van Nasionale Partybeleid”. I ask the Minister again to check his Hansard.

That is nonsense.

Then the Minister does not believe that to be “verlig” “is om af te dwaal van Nasionale Partybeleid”. The Minister does not believe that a “verligte” is one who wanders away from Nationalist Party policy. This then means that the “verkramptes” are the ones that are running away from Nationalist Party policy. We have now had a wonderful reversal here. The hon. the Minister who said that one must accept Nationalist Party policy or get out, is now defending the views of the verkramptes, defending “Current Affairs” and those in his party who have attacked his own party newspapers and have said things about the Nationalist Party Sunday Press which are far worse than anything that has been said about the English-language Sunday Press. The hon. the Minister is now the new defender of those who attack the verligtes and the verligte newspapers who support the Nationalist Party. What is more significant is the hon. the Minister’s definition of politics. He said that statements by the Prime Minister and by implication statements by Ministers of the State, are not party politics. In other words, the radio is to be used to put across the views of the Nationalist Party Cabinet Ministers because they are in power. Because they are in power their views become the views of the State and therefore the S.A.B.C. is there to put across these views. The hon. the Minister said it.

That is nonsense.

What did the hon. the Minister then say this afternoon?

You are now drawing your own conclusion.

I am drawing that conclusion and I say it is a fact that the S.A.B.C. is putting over the view of the Government and the Nationalist Party. This is a symptom of a one-party state and a symbol of dictatorship which we will yet argue further with this hon. Minister.

I do not have the time to go into this in any great detail, but I want to deal with two matters in brief. On 25th February I asked the hon. the Minister a question, namely what post offices, towers or other structures under his control are named after persons. The Minister answered that with the exception of post offices bearing the names of the towns, airports, etc. where they are located “there are no buildings or structures under my control which are named after persons”. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the Albert Hertzog Tower has been given a new name since that member’s dismissal from the Cabinet. There was a ceremony at which it was announced that that tower would be known as the Albert Hertzog Tower. There is also a post office called the Hendrik Verwoerd Post Office, which I will not argue about. But I want to know about this Albert Hertzog Tower which has suddenly disappeared from the nomenclature of the Nationalist Party and the Post Office Administration. Is it now going to be called the Basie or the Hasie van Rensburg Tower? I also want to suggest that when that tower is renamed the Television Tower, the first programme on it should be of the unity twins, namely the hon. member for Moorreesburg and the hon. member for Innesdal. The ex-Minister of Posts and Telegraphs will of course be the compère. I can visualize a beautiful introductory programme with the hon. the Minister in the background, the ex-Minister as compère and the unity twins telling us how they reconcile the “Current Affairs” view, the hon. member for Sunnyside’s view and the view that has recently become known as “Die Nuwe Beeld” of the Nationalist Party.

Mr. Chairman, I find it astonishing that a front-bencher, such as the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, should tire himself out in criticising the National Party. I think that if he had mastered the problems which his own Party has in Natal, his status in Natal would not have declined to such an extent. We hope that he will in due course keep his own house in order and retain the status he has at present, because we like him in the position in which he is now.

In the few minutes I have at my disposal, I should like to say a few words about the South African Broadcasting Corporation and, in particular, to associate myself with what the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) said last night. I want to make it clear that I specifically want to discuss the Afrikaans service. However, I believe that what I say in Afrikaans about the Afrikaans service, can be said with as much sincerity in English about the English service. If one looks at the S.A.B.C. in an appreciative manner, one must say that one appreciates the fact that the programmes are so faithful to the Afrikaner way of life; that the programmes reflect this so well and remain so closely connected to the national traditions of that section of the Afrikaans nation that is served in Afrikaans. If one listens attentively to these programmes, one can really say that the Afrikaans character finds an echo in the programmes presented to them.

We know that the radio is a mighty means of communication and that it penetrates the most intimate domestic circle. One finds radios in the kitchen, in the lounge and even in the bedroom as well. The radio is at the disposal of the whole family and it is employed in such a way that through live broadcasts we are presented with a very clear picture of those events which are connected with our national life. That picture remains closely connected to our national traditions. We have great appreciation for that.

Let us look somewhat more closely at this statement. To the Afrikaner his religion is a very intimate, tender and sensitive matter. If one looks at the way the S.A.B.C. handles this matter, one cannot have anything but appreciation for it. The day is started with an early-morning meditation. Later in the day morning service is broadcast. In the evening there is the popular family programme “Laat ons Boeke vat”. And later in the evening the day is once again concluded with a late-evening meditation. Therefore, the day’s activities begin and end with divine worship. I think that this is a good example of how the character of the Afrikaner is reflected in the programmes. There is hardly a person, no matter what his occupation may be, for whom it is not possible to tune in to these divine worship programmes at some time or other. On Sundays the various church services are broadcast. There are many people who live on remote farms and for whom it is a practical impossibility to go to church on Sundays. They really do derive a great deal of benefit from these programmes which are presented on Sundays. The S.A.B.C. also recognizes the various denominations and they are granted various turns to preach. This matter is taken even further in that the listener is being afforded the opportunity of participating. He may forward his questions to the programme “Wat sê die Bybel”. These questions are then replied to by experts in that field.

One of the other characteristics of the Afrikaner is that he is particularly interested in State affairs. To put it differently, one may say that he is particularly fond of politics. Of course, this is not an uncommon characteristic, because as far as it is humanly possible he determines his own future and that of his children through his politics. Nor is the Afrikaner only interested in South African politics. He takes just as great an interest in what is happening on the world scene. This sphere is covered by the programme “World Affairs” and by the excellent news services.

When we come to the programme “Current Affairs”, which has become so contentious here in this House—why this is the case, I do not know—we see that it covers national issues for the most part. Those aspects with which every citizen of South Africa is in daily contact, are discussed in this programme. As far as I am concerned, this is a most stimulating programme. It affords us new horizons, and new viewpoints are opened up for us by this programme. One would certainly not agree with all these viewpoints, nor do I believe that it is by any means the compiler’s aim to make everybody agree or to make everybody accept everything. However, if a person says that “Current Affairs” propagates party politics, that person must be very afraid of his own politics. If that is the case he should take care that whatever political foothold he still has, is not slipping away from him.

The agricultural programme, of which mention has already been made, means a great deal to our farmers. There are many farmers at remote places for whom it is not possible to get their morning paper together with their coffee in bed. It might take weeks or longer before they receive their mail and are able to read these articles. In the meantime that radio programme makes a better-informed and more intelligent farmer out of him. However, I have my misgivings about the suitability of the time of the programme “Calling all Farmers”. This programme is only broadcast at 1.35 p.m., and by that time the farmer who is worth his salt is already doing his work, whereas the farmer who has already made his fortune is taking his afternoon nap. Therefore I feel that it is not possible for the vast majority of our farmers to avail themselves fully of this programme as it is not being broadcast at a suitable time. I wonder whether it is not possible for the S.A.B.C. to effect a change in this regard?

In this way it will be possible for one to analyse all the various programmes. The music programmes offer something for everybody; there are talks for housewives and there is the excellent news coverage in which the South African view on news is always given preference. In the past we in this country were accustomed to the South African standpoint taking a back-seat. We were accustomed to hearing first what had happened abroad. The South African news always followed last, like a small appendix at the end of the programme. Now we want to tell the S.A.B.C. that that priority which they, in their news coverage, are giving to what is our own, means a great deal to us. I think the hon. member for Durban (Point) could benefit himself if he would listen to the new economic survey which is being presented, and he might select a few good shares if he has the right approach to it. This means a great deal to our people. These programmes range from “Siembamba” to “Oupa and Ouma”, and nobody is forgotten, not even the aged.

Now I should like to conclude with this. If one were to make a summary of everything the S.A.B.C. offers, I should like to make this statement, i.e. that nowhere in this country can so much value be bought with so little money, for if one takes one’s family to a concert or to a cinema in the evening, it could easily cost one R10. But for R5 per annum the S.A.B.C. affords the whole family information, instruction, education and much more. [Time expired.]

In addition to all the things the hon. member who has just sat down says the S.A.B.C. gives us, he has forgotten to mention “Current Affairs”. Of course “Current Affairs” has become rather a matter of confusion amongst the ranks of the Nationalist Party. Here we find the “verligtes” defending the “verkramptes” and the “verkramptes” defending the “verligtes” and the poor Minister is in the middle. He reminds me of the conductor of an orchestra. The brasses are playing one song and the tympanists are keeping beat to another, and he, the poor conductor, is trying to get something decent out of the two groups. It would be quite amusing if it were not so tragic to those people who have to pay licences and who have to swallow what that programme dishes up day after day. But of course the Minister does not consider that to be politics. Well, I think it is the worst type of politics, because it is politics not only run by this Government but it is the politics of a monopoly that is talcing money from the whole of South Africa.

But let me get on to something a little more parochial that I want to bring to the Minister’s attention. Now, a lot of praise has gone to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, but in my case I think there has been a serious dereliction of duty in some of the work performed by this Department. It is not usual for me to condemn people who are working under difficulties, but in this case the service is being paid for by the public and that service is not being conducted efficiently and in some cases it is being conducted most unfairly. In my own constituency we have a telephone exchange, which I see is going to be enlarged at some time or other, but at the moment serious difficulties are being experienced in this exchange which have resulted in a technical breakdown. This technical breakdown, I understand, took place in October last year. It was apparently discovered in December. From October to December the accounts department of this telephone exchange was simply chaotic. Circulars had to be sent out in February explaining to the subscribers that the exchange had broken down through this technical fault and a revision of the accounts had to be made. When the accounts came out, every single account showed that the subscriber had previously been undercharged.

That is funny. I am always being overcharged.

The first thing that strikes me is that it is always the subscriber who has not paid enough. I have yet to find an account where the subscriber has paid too much and he gets a refund. These people found that they were debited with an average number of calls, or an estimated number of calls, but how the estimates were made I do not know. However, after three months they were asked to pay an additional amount to the usual account, which was the normal account plus an accumulation of calls that took place over a period of three months. I wrote to the Minister about this and I said to him in my letter dated 3rd February—

I then ended up by saying I trusted that he would give this matter his immediate attention. A few days later I got a letter from the Private Secretary of the hon. the Minister, saying—

He then deals with the inquiries regarding the charges collected from subscribers and says—

I have now waited six weeks for a reply to that letter. I have received requests from my constituents asking what is going to be done in the matter, and I can only tell them that I have not yet received a word further from the Minister or his Department. Now we find some quite serious overcharges by the Department. I do not want to read from newspaper cuttings, but I will read from my own notes. There is a woman here who was given an average account of R12 to R14 and she says to me that this is ridiculously high. On a check of her calls, this R12 to R14 is approximately three times what she usually pays. Now she is told that even the R12 to R14 is incorrect and she has to pay an extra R8. What is quite surprising is that during this period of three months her telephone was out of order for nearly a month, but she still has to pay that. I just cannot understand what has been going on in this exchange. I will not deal with the other complaints I have here, but for the past three or four months this whole telephone exchange has been chaotic. Its number starts with 26, but as soon as you dial 2-6-1 you cut into somebody else’s conversation. That may be interesting to some people who like to butt in, but to people who have to use the telephone it is quite a nuisance. If conversations take place of a confidential nature between people and it is open for everyone to listen in, it results in only one thing, namely that people have to use a telephone in another area. I do not want to continue along these lines, but I regard this as a very serious matter and I would like the Minister to look into it immediately and see what can be done to remedy the position. Because this exchange may be antiquated or badly serviced, or it may not have sufficient personnel, a review of it is necessary. I see on the Estimates under Sub-head 4 that the Johannesburg-Rosettenville telephone exchange is going to be enlarged. But before that enlargement takes place, it is essential for the present telephone exchange to be put into proper working order. Without that it is absolutely useless to go and spend money on the enlargement of this exchange. Tied up with the enlargement of the exchange because of the demand for telephones in the area, especially from the business people, I want to tell the Minister that the Post Office in Rosettenville is hopelessly inadequate. The Minister probably knows through his Department that this is one of the fastest developing business areas in Johannesburg. Houses are being demolished and blocks of flats erected in their stead and the business centre is expanding so much and so quickly that the streets can barely carry the traffic in the area. But this post office is virtually a tiny little room. There is a constant queue of people trying to get into the post office, let alone being served at the counter. It has insufficient room for the people who want to use the telephones and it is also a badly placed post office. I understand that the post office is in leased premises. [Time expired.]

For South-West Africa it is an historic occasion that the hon. the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs could present this Budget in which the Postal Services of South-West Africa are also included for the first time in history. Therefore, as a representative of one of the South-West Africa constituencies, I cannot omit in the first place to pay tribute to the officials of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in South-West Africa, in all its wide ramifications, and to say a few words in this connection. Firstly, I want to pay tribute to-day to the Post Office officials in South-West Africa who have in the past done their duty over a widespread area and who have performed a great task in the interests of South-West Africa and its progress.

It is also interesting to take note of the development of Postal Services in South-West Africa, and in that connection I then want to mention a few interesting figures. The first postal service in South-West Africa was already begun more than a century ago, and it consisted of traders, travellers and other people who conveyed the mail on a voluntary basis. In 1848 the Rhenish Missionaries decided for the first time to institute a fixed postal service in South-West Africa. All mail was consequently sent to the mission station of Otjikango, and from there the resident missionary sent it to Windhoek by two Herero mail carriers, where two further Carriers took it to Rehoboth. From Rehoboth Willem Swartbooi sent it to Bethanie and from there Dawid Christiaan in turn sent it to Komaggas in the Cape Colony, whence it was sent further to Cape Town and other parts. It is interesting, if one pages through the old archival documents, to find that the missionary Kolbe, for example, made mention of the reliability with which the carriers of that mail executed their task in those olden times. It is interesting that in the remote areas of South-West Africa we still make use of Bushmen to-day, for example, to carry a letter to a neighbour. The letter is placed in a forked stick and handed over to the Bushman and he then covers the entire distance at a slow trot. He does not know what the letter contains but he believes that the voice of his master is enclosed in that envelope and he regards it as his great task to deliver it intact. In 1856 a postal service was instituted for the first time from Otjimbingue to Walvis Bay. It traversed the desert by ox wagon and the journey lasted about three weeks. On 28th April, 1888, South-West Africa became a member of the International Postal Union in terms of section 18 of the International Postal Union of 1878. The postal service was then placed under the control of the German Department of Posts, and the first post office in South-West Africa was opened at Otjimbingue on the 16th July, 1888, and it was not a postmaster who was in charge of it but a police officer, Hugo von Goldammer. The incoming mail was kept there until someone collected it and this sometimes took as much as five years. In 1891 the civil administration was transferred to Windhoek and the post office, of course, as well, and from there the mail once more traversed the desert to Walvis Bay by means of pack oxen. The mail bags were placed on pack oxen and the pack oxen were then driven through the desert by natives. In 1892 a scotch cart was introduced which was pulled by eight oxen, and passengers could also travel in it if the mail bags allowed sufficient space. On 9th March, 1895, the German Department sent a certain Sachs to investigate and to extend the postal services in South-West Africa. On his recommendation a by-law regulation was issued on the 6th August, 1896, in terms of which any private person was compelled by law to convey mail, if requested to do so by a postal official. It was a transgression of the law if he refused. It is also interesting that the arrival of mail in South-West Africa was always announced by means of flag-hoisting, i.e. a red flag for outgoing mail to Europe, a blue one for outgoing mail to the interior, a red one over a blue one for incoming mail from Europe and a blue flag over a red one to indicate incoming internal mail. Skipping quite a long period in time, it is also interesting that in 1920 a distance of altogether 110,000 miles was covered by the Postal Services in South-West Africa in order to convey mail, and it is interesting to note the way in which it was conveyed. Mail was conveyed over 21,820 miles by motor car; by horse and cart over a distance of 35,880 miles; by ox wagon over a distance of 11,380 miles; by camel over a distance of 16,050 miles and by pack oxen over a distance of 24,870. It is also interesting to note that in that year R17,516 was spent in the conveyance of postal items, by comparison with more than R¼ million today. The first telegrams in South-West Africa were sent in 1901 and were in fact sent by heliograph and later by Morse Code. In 1930 the Creed printing telegraph was introduced for the first time. In the fifties when I was a newspaperman, I was the person who made the first direct link-up between Windhoek and London and I operated the printing telegraph myself. In 1915 there were still only 175 telephones in South-West Africa. On 30th September, 1966, there were already 17,968. In the same year there were already 24,774 miles of farm lines in South-West Africa, supplied to 4,434 farmers. In 1966 there were only 122 applications throughout the whole of South-West Africa on the waiting list. South-West Africa’s Estimates in 1920, for the entire Postal Service merely amounted to R65,983. In 1966 it was already over R2 million and to-day it is very much more. With this tremendous development one has no choice but to pay tribute to the inhabitants of South-West Africa, to those postal officials who were responsible for this phenomenal progress in the Postal Services in South-West Africa, and since South-West Africa’s postal services will in the future fall under this Parliament, I want to express the hope that the same dedication will be displayed as far as the development of South-West Africa’s Postal Services is concerned. Knowing the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs as I do, and knowing the head of the Postal Services, Mr. Strauss, and his officials, I am left in no doubt at all that they will display the same dedication to the extention of South-West Africa’s Postal Services, so that they can reach even greater heights.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) congratulated me on the Budget. I want to thank him and all the other members who congratulated me on it. The hon. member referred to the new exchange. The hon. member should re-read the letter written by the previous Minister in this connection. The previous Minister wrote, inter alia—

The period of 17 years refers to the building and not to the equipment. The planning for the extension of the exchange equipment makes provision for 5,286 lines. This will meet the requirements up to the middle of 1973. Additional equipment will be installed at the appointed time in order to meet any further needs. The cost of the apparatus is R613,764. The apparatus will be delivered in the 1969-’70 financial year and its installation will be completed during 1970.

The hon. member once more referred to the difference in rates in respect of telephone calls.

I gave the hon. member a full explanation on a previous occasion, and therefore I do not believe that it is necessary for me to do so once more.

We know why it is like that. We want it just the other way round.

This anomaly, of course, arose when national subscriber trunk dialling was introduced at the Durban exchange in November, 1967. But, as I have said, I do not believe it is necessary for me to explain once more. I may just inform him that the implications of this inconsistency are fully realized. It is actually a transitional problem and it must be accepted as such by national subscribers in the interests of an improved national telecommunications network. As a result of multiple technical and other considerations, national subscriber truck dialling is being extended step by step. As a result it was not possible to make the facilities available to Pietermaritzburg at the same time as they were introduced in Durban. However, we are doing everything possible to eliminate the inconvenience as quickly as possible and to extend the services. All anomalies will be eliminated as soon as the system is in operation throughout the country. According to present indications national subscriber trunk dialling cannot be made available to subscribers in Pietermaritzburg before 1971.

The hon. member also asked whether the same period applied to all local telephone calls. My reply to that is in the affirmative. Then he also wanted to know whether congratulatory telegrams were delivered everywhere on Saturdays. The position here is that all telegrams which are handed in to the office of destination in time, i.e. before closing time, are still delivered that same day.

To the hon. member for Bloemfontein (West) I want to say that the Post Office surpluses cannot be used to subsidize concessionary S.A.B.C. licences. The S.A.B.C. is an autonomous body and is therefore responsible for its own funds.

There is another question which the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) put to me. It concerns the staff of the Durban Corporation. In this regard I want to assure him that the points of dispute were not between the Post Office and the staff, but between the Durban Corporation and the staff. However, those points of dispute have all been ironed out.

The hon. member for Durban (Point) apparently enjoyed attaching his own particular interpretation to my words. He is welcome to it. He is welcome to the pleasure which he derived from setting up his own skittles and then knocking them down again. I accept it in very good spirit, because he too was actually only joking and not being wilful. Therefore I shall not respond to it any further. As far as his question about the Hertzog Tower is concerned, I must tell him that the Hertzog Tower does not fall under my control, but under that of the S.A.B.C.

As regards the matter which was raised by the hon. member for Rosettenville, I regret that the hon. member has not yet received a reply. He complained about the building and about the exchange. In regard to his complaint about the exchange, I still cannot furnish him with a reply. As far as the building is concerned, I must tell him that as a result of the tremendous backlog in building work—there are about 430 major works—and the priority being accorded to automatic exchanges, a Government building for Rosettenville cannot be constructed in the foreseeable future. However, the question of whether relief is possible by means of taking up a lease will be investigated. As far as the other matter which he touched upon is concerned, I shall once more give instructions that a reply to him be expedited.

The Minister referred to the question of concessionary radio licences and stated that it was a question for the S.A.B.C. This matter was taken up with the Board of Governors of the S.A.B.C. as far back as 1962. During the course of 1963 I received notification from the head of the Secretarial Department stating that the Board of Governors of the S.A.B.C. had approved the suggestion that concessionary radio licences be granted to all old-age pensioners, persons who receive an allowance from the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions and to the blind. I was informed that the existing regulations had been revised and submitted to higher authority for consideration. The Minister’s predecessor, after a long negotiation, did agree to revised regulations concerning the granting of concessionary radio licences to certain groups of social pensioners. I submit that it is, therefore, within the power of the Minister to take steps to extend the limited concession which was granted some three years ago by his predecessor. As I have told the Minister, the extension of this facility has already been approved by the Board of Governors in principle. It is now, therefore, only a matter for the responsible Minister. I submit that the Minister can and should extend this facility to a number of other social pensioners, people who deserve that consideration. However, in view of the fact that the time allotted to the Committee Stage is just about exhausted, I shall raise this matter again at an appropriate stage later on.

May I just tell the hon. member that these concessions were last considered in 1967. At that stage it was calculated that if concessions were granted to old age pensioners who were living alone and had no income other than their pensions, the revenue of the S.A.B.C. would be detrimentally affected to the tune of R45,000. In the case of the 130,000 white social pensioners the S.A.B.C. would lose revenue to the extent of R500,000 per annum. But this is a matter which can be reconsidered, and I promise the hon. member that I will go into it again. Later on in the present session legislation will be introduced in connection with the collection of licence fees. This may result in the S.A.B.C. being able to collect more money from this source, because then fewer people will be able to evade payment of their licence fees. If it appears that the S.A.B.C. has some money left over and does not know what to do with it, we can reconsider this request of the hon. member. The hon. member must not doubt my sympathy in this connection. I assure him that we will accommodate this group of people to the extent that our financial position allows us to do so.

Schedules 1 and 2, as printed, put and agreed to.

House Resumed:

Bill reported without amendment.

(Third Reading)

Mr. Speaker, I move, as an unopposed motion—

Mr. Speaker, I am not standing up to object to the Third Reading because naturally, we should like to see the money being voted so that the Post Office workers can be paid their belated wage increases and the Minister is given a chance to see what he can do in order to alleviate the telephone shortage. Before coming to the main points of the few short remarks I should like to make, I want to refer to a certain remark made by the hon. the Minister. I take if from his Hansard. It is in Afrikaans because his speech has not yet been translated. We were discussing the alleged difficulties experienced by firms manufacturing telephone equipment in South Africa in getting Bantu labour, and the Minister replied to me as follows when I pointed out these firms had these difficulties—

He said three times my statement was not true. I want to refer the Minister to a reply which was given to me by the hon. the Minister of Planning in this House on the 25.2.1968 when I asked him whether there were such firms which had difficulty in obtaining Bantu labour. My question was as follows—

The Minister of Planning replied by giving names of firms and said that the first firm, A. E. I. Henley, had applied for 33 Bantu labourers and only 19 had been approved; Siemens at Isando had applied for 40 Bantu labourers and only 20 had been approved. The firm of Siemens at Koedoespoort had applied for 186. Its application was first of all refused but on reapplication a lesser number was granted. These are the facts as stated in Hansard, Weekly Edition No. 4, column 1344. Therefore I cannot see how the Minister can say it is untrue on my part, and can say it three times, when I said that certain firms had difficulty in getting Bantu labour and they simply did not get enough. As a matter of fact, there is an application from Siemens at Koedoespoort for 947 Bantu labourers until the year 1986. This application was received at the end of 1968 and is still under consideration.

You are putting up such a show of innocence now that figures would not melt in your mouth.

If I have misread the question then I am quite prepared to accept the Minister’s reply, which is fair.

There is a second matter which I wish to raise, and that is the utter inadequacy of the Minister’s reply when we questioned him about the strange action of the S.A.B.C. which, with or without the Minister’s knowledge, went to Malawi and Swaziland and assisted there in the construction of broadcasting establishments. I want to make it quite clear that the fact that these are two black countries is entirely irrelevant to the question, for had they been white countries, I would have made the same remarks as I am making now. The first question was, on whose authority did the S.A.B.C. go to Malawi and offer to construct a broadcasting station of R50,000 and a studio of R20,000? I am going by Press reports, and the Minister can tell me whether the Press reports are correct. According to one Press report—

He announced that in Malawi itself. The report continues—

I think a matter such as this does merit the attention of the hon. the Minister. We have often pleaded in this House that the Auditor-General should review the financial transactions of the S.A.B.C., and this seems to me to be eminently a matter which should be reviewed. It is one on which the Minister should give information to this House. If I were to have put such a question to him, say last year, or at the beginning of this year, it is quite probable that he would have replied it was none of his business, as the S.A.B.C. could do what it wanted to. That is the reply I would have got from his predecessor. I do appeal to the hon. the Minister now, where we have this opportunity of raising this matter, of telling us where did the S.A.B.C. get the right to install these stations, under what legal authority was it done, where did it get the money for this project? Was the money obtained by way of listeners’ licences or was the money granted to the S.A.B.C. by Parliament?

I should like to say something now about the debate which is now rapidly ending with this Third Reading of the Bill. It appears to me that certain salient features have emerged from this debate, and I am trying to find those features on which we can have agreement. I am trying to find agreement with the Minister as far as possible, as he will have noticed. The first point is we have a telephone shortage of 73,000 in South Africa. I will admit it is the second greatest shortage and the greatest shortage was under a Nationalist government, whosever fault it may have been.

And under a United Party government?

I am not arguing, I am trying to find points of agreement so far. The second point is that the telephone shortage is going to get worse, probably until 1971, and the backlog will not be eliminated until 1974, that is, within five years. I trust that there is agreement. I want to see what we have arrived at in this debate. There has been confusion among the public, who have read about great amounts that are to be spent on telephones; they have read about new telephone installations, and they have been confused by the figures given by the Minister. Some of this confusion has arisen from the fact that in giving the amounts for new installations of telephone services he has included transfers, i.e. where a telephone service has been given up by a subscriber at one exchange and simply transferred in his name to another exchange, even if it is the same subscriber. In other words, if a subscriber changes his telephone from, say, the central Johannesburg exchange to another exchange nearby that would be included as a new installation in the Minister’s figures. In that way confusion has arisen. The position is clear, and we are now ad idem on the salient point that the telephone shortage amounts to 73,000. It is going to get worse until 1971. The backlog cannot be eliminated until 1974, with a certain number of “ifs”. I will not go into these. I submit that the hon. the Minister was not even sure that it would be eliminated by 1974. I believe that that was an admission that this state of affairs is an extremely serious one. I shall not go into the seriousness of the matter. I have done so on two occasions in this House. The public will take notice of this, and the public, I hope, will also take note of the state of affairs in many other countries among the Western democracies where this state of affairs simply does not exist.

The second fact that has emerged from this debate, is that the Government unfortunately still seems to be adamant in its unreasoned opposition to television. I grant that the arguments used against television in this debate have, in many instances, been more sophisticated than those advanced in the past. I am leaving out, naturally, a few of the theories of our flat-earthist friends from Innesdal and Sunnyside; but on the whole, the arguments against it have been more sophisticated. However, there does not seem to have been any change in the attitude of the Minister towards introducing television on its merits.

Hear, hear!

I am glad the hon. member for Witbank can be arbitrary on this matter.

It is an old standpoint which is still being adhered to by the Minister.

In other words, he is following the old policy of Minister Hertzog, the present member for Ermelo. The only time we have a hope to get television, will be if outside circumstances and new technological developments in satellite broadcasting and re-broadcasting, force the service on South Africa from outside and compel the Government to introduce a local service in response. It is a sad state of affairs, when there is this magnificent means of communication, entertainment and of instruction and the Government has to be forced, cajoled and kicked into introducing it by the rest of the world, instead of the Minister being only too happy to accept this wonderful medium. I am sure the country is going to be disappointed in having to realize this. The remarks from the other side seem to indicate that I am right to say that, in this respect at least, the hon. the Minister has capitulated to a strong “verkrampte” element in this Government as well as to the very sgrong, dominating “verkrampte” element in the S.A.B.C. itself.

The third salient point that appears from this debate is the statement made by the hon. the Minister that he would act if the South African Broadcasting Corporation ever interfered in party politics. It seems that a fine distinction is being drawn between politics and party politics. The hon. the Minister will interfere if the S.A.B.C. indulges in Nationalist Party politics, but he will not interfere if the S.A.B.C. indulges in politics alone. Is that correct?

You have my speech in front of you. Read it yourself.

I have read it and the hon. the Minister used the term “party politics”. He insisted that the word “party” should be included with the word “politics”. I gather from that that ordinary Government politics will be permitted on the S.A.B.C. and that, in fact, it will have carte blanche as far as that is concerned. We were a bit surprised at the Minister’s interpretation even of the term “party politics”.

Is TV politics?

No, it is not politics. I trust the S.A.B.C. will raise the matter of television.

Is the price of bread politics?

The price of bread can well be politics.

Exactly! Now just think again!

If this Government were to increase the price of bread by 100 per cent, it would be a political matter that we could discuss in this Parliament. The policy of hon. members opposite with regard to 100 per cent increase in the price of bread would be defended by the S.A.B.C. If we objected to it, that, however, would be party politics. That is the point.

Don’t twist.

Order! What does the hon. member mean by “twist”?

To give a misrepresentation of what I said.

The hon. member must withdraw the word “twist”.

Then I shall withdraw it.

The hon. member may proceed.

Sir, I do not take much notice of the hon. member for Umhlatuzana. The sincerity of the hon. the Minister in what he has said about the S.A.B.C. and its interference in party politics will be tested very thoroughly during the coming year.

The last point which appeared from this debate was the almost unexpectedly vehement defence of the S.A.B.C.’s programme Current Affairs, particularly by “verkrampte” hon. members on the other side, and the violent language used against those newspapers who dared to criticize Current Affairs. I conclude by saying that what we have here is an unhappy picture of unsolved problems, a divided party, and not much hope for the Post Office and its administration for the coming year. [Time expired.]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member for Orange Grove thinks for one moment that there is division within the National Party, he is making a big mistake. If the hon. member thinks he can use words such as “verkramp” and “verlig” and say that this will divide the National Party, then he is making another mistake. The National Party is founded on principles and not on mere words. No one can say that the National Party is divided by using certain words and by putting a label on certain members. Those people are in the National Party because they believe in the principles of the Party. At present the National Party is stronger than any party in this country has ever been. While in a few minutes’ time we will accept the first Budget of an independent Post Office which stands on its own feet, which has its own staff department and which controls its own affairs we want to congratulate the Minister together with the Postmaster-General and his staff. But we do not only want to congratulate them. We in this House and the public outside realize that all the problems that exist cannot be solved by a wave of a magic wand. We must realize that the Post Office is to-day faced with its greatest challenge ever. It must be in a position to compete in rendering services in a country which is most definitely developing at a faster rate than any other in the world to-day. I am convinced that the new Minister, as well as the Postmaster-General and his officers, will accept this challenge of the times.

Did the former Minister not accept the challenge?

He did accept it. He tackled his task with dedication. He did his best, and if it had not been for the former Minister, we would not have been in the privileged position to-day that the Post Office can function as an independent Department.

I should like to exchange a few ideas with the hon. the Minister. While we are placing the Post Office on the road to independence to-day, I should like to ask him whether a department of planning cannot be set up in the Post Office. Then this department of planning must continually investigate the most modern methods in order to apply the highest degree of efficiency so that the best service can be rendered to the public. This department of planning must break away from the old concept of Government buildings. When we see a red brick building, we know immediately that it is either a post office, a police station or a magistrate’s office.

Or a school.

Yes, or a school. We are grateful to see that the Post Office is gradually breaking away from this idea. Our post offices should be planned to look attractive and modern, so that people would enjoy going there to do business. Neither should the rooms in the post office be little cubicles that one is loath to enter. The interiors of post offices should be planned in such a way that it would be a delight to enter them and to do business there, because surely the object of going to a post office is to do business there. What does one find in our major post offices to-day? There are a few cubicles in which one has to write while standing up. Has the time not come to modernize, and for tables and chairs to be provided at which people can sit down in order to do their business in a dignified way?

Another very important matter I want to deal with is the question of public telephones. To-day the public telephone is the only means of communication for the less privileged man. Not every one in this country can afford to have a telephone in his home.

There are 72,000 persons who cannot get them.

Will the hon. member please keep quiet. The only means of communication for these persons is the public telephone. When such a person wants to call a doctor, when he wants to call an ambulance or the police, or when he wants to talk to a friend, he must make use of a public telephone. And what do we find? One comes to the conclusion that the man in the street does not know for what purpose that telephone is there. These telephones are constantly being damaged. I want to plead with the hon. the Minister this afternoon that these persons who have no respect and appreciation for the property of others and who are bent on damaging these public telephones, should be prosecuted. This Parliament should provide that if such a person is under the age of 18 years, females excluded, corporal punishment must be imposed. Hon. members may raise their eyebrows and think of it what they will, but I want to suggest that persons who damage these telephones so that other persons cannot use them, should be sentenced to week-end imprisonment. If just a few persons were prosecuted this vandalism which is now running riot would be stopped. I also want to plead that public telephones should be provided at all police stations and fire stations and in the entrance halls of all large buildings, and that the presence of a public telephone should be indicated by a proper neon sign, because these public telephones render the greatest and most valuable service to the people of South Africa. I should like to see the people get this service, and I should like them to know that when they go to a police station or a fire station, a public telephone will be available there.

Should they hang black lights on these telephone booths?

The hon. member for Durban (Point) always wants to make a joke of everything that is said in this House. He is never serious and never contributes something constructive and all he ever wants to do is to break down and to play the fool. This Parliament is assembled here to make constructive suggestions to the hon. the Minister, and that is why we are having a Third Reading debate. The hon. member never makes a constructive suggestion, because he has nothing constructive to contribute.

I want to submit a plea to the hon. the Minister in regard to another aspect as well. The motor vehicles that are used in the Post Office play a very important role in the postal service. It hurts one to see at what speed and how carelessly these vehicles are sometimes handled. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the time is not ripe for him and the Postmaster-General to consider, when a person is responsible for the driving of a vehicle and he handles it properly, looks after the tyres of that vehicle and keeps the repair costs of the vehicle low, the possibility of a bonus being granted to that person at the end of the year. If we can bring it home to these persons that they must be careful because, inter alia, it is their own taxation money that is used for the purchase of these vehicles, we will all be very glad.

As far as television is concerned, I want to say that it is not the hon. the Minister who has to decide about that, but the National Party. It is no use the Opposition or anyone else trying to force the hon. the Minister in that direction. Like the hon. the Minister, I also say that in principle I have nothing against television. If we could get television in South Africa to-day which would offer programmes of the same high quality as those offered by the S.A.B.C., including Current Affairs. I would be the first person to vote for it. Television can come to South Africa provided it meets the high standards we set as regards the quality of the programmes. Each of us sitting here has to admit that the programmes offered by the S.A.B.C., whether they be broadcast over the Afrikaans, English or Bantu services, are of the highest quality, and therefore all of us should express our gratitude and appreciation to the South African Broadcasting Corporation for the wonderful service they are rendering. We extend our best wishes to the hon. the Minister and his staff in their difficult task of eliminating the telephone shortage and in rendering the best service to the public, and we hope and trust that next year we will all be amazed at what has been achieved, because we know that he and his staff will render nothing but selfless service to the Republic.

To the hon. member for Brakpan I want to say that the Division of Planning he pleaded for is already in existence. With the head office reorganization of last year, a special Division of Finance and Planning was established, and it was placed under the control of one Deputy Postmaster-General. As regards the seating facilities in the Post Office buildings he asked for, these are of course provided at numerous places. In other places, of course, they could be considered. I shall pass on this suggestion to that division and see what provision can be made.

Basie, is this a private conversation, or can we listen too?

I do not think the hon. member for Durban (Point) would like to know about this. The hon. member for Brakpan also asked that telephone booths should be installed at every fire station, every police station, and in the entrance hall of every large building. I think that in many cases these already exist, but in other cases where they do not exist, we can consider the possibility of installing such telephone booths there.

As regards the granting of special recognition by way of bonuses to motor vehicle drivers of the Post Office, I just want to say that no bonuses are being paid to them, but that they are specially mentioned in the Post Office Circular. But consideration can be given to this suggestion.

To the hon. member for Orange Grove I want to say that I am really not going to say anything more about the summary of the debate which he tried to make here, because it will only be tedious repetition. In connection with the so-called donation to Malawi, as he called it, this was a business transaction between the S.A.B.C. and the Malawi Radio Service. The equipment was not donated to them but was sold to them, and assistance was rendered with its installation.

Was the assistance given free of charge?

Oh really, Sir, I said it was a business transaction. This is only a minor matter. I cannot say offhand whether the service was free of charge, but why does the hon. member want to tamper with the relations between South Africa and its neighbouring states? The hon. member now wants to make a mountain out of a molehill. The hon. member for Orange Grove said I must please come back to certain matters. I did not think he would be so unwise. I shall gladly come back to them. He said I should tell him what he did wrong, and that he was still adhering to that view in connection with the non-White labour of the firms manufacturing Post Office telecommunication equipment. But it is no use the hon. member’s pretending to be so innocent. Surely he knows very well what he said. Surely he knows very well that he drew certain conclusions in the Press when he was again competing with the hon. member for Hillbrow in making a statement to the Press. Surely he is aware of the conclusion he drew when he told the country what he did tell it. It is not merely the question he put to me that has a bearing on this matter, or the question he asked the Minister of Mines and of Planning. Surely this is not one isolated matter. He then made a Press statement and said he knew who the guilty man was who was responsible for this telephone shortage of 72,000. He said he suspected that the difficulty was that we could not get the equipment in time.

Not only that.

The hon. member said more. I shall come to that. He blamed the hon. the Minister of Planning for it in that he refused to give those people sufficient Bantu labour. The fact of the matter is that not one single Post Office telecommunication work in South Africa has been delayed as a result of our having had to wait for equipment. This is Fact No. 1.

Does this include all exchange equipment?

Yes, this includes everything hundred per cent. The second reason he furnished was in connection with Bantu labour. They applied for more Bantu labour for future production. These people are very upset about these Press statements which the hon. member is making and by which these private firms are being politically implicated. They are very upset about this and I also want to say that they have written to the Minister of Planning. The firm concerned said the following (translation)—

They are expressing their concern about this matter.

I got the information from the Minister of Planning.

Yes, tout you did not get the conclusions from the Minister of Planning. You asked the question in connection with Bantu labour, but you drew your own conclusions. [Interjection.] No, that hon. member will not succeed in getting away now. It is to those conclusions he drew that this firm is seriously objecting, and it is irresponsible to make such statements about large overseas firms that are manufacturing telecommunication equipment in this country. I do not mind the hon. member criticizing the Government, but I take the strongest exception against private initiative being drawn into this, against their being implicated, in a way they should not be, through the irresponsibility of the hon. member for Orange Grove.

All they are saying is that they did not give me any information, and that is correct, because they did not.

They strongly object, because they say that all their applications for labour have so far been dealt with within reasonable periods of time, and this labour they need is only in connection with future production. These people not only manufacture telecommunications equipment; they also manufacture equipment for the Railways and for other industries in the country. The hon. member for Orange Grove must consider matters carefully before making such irresponsible statements in the Press. He should ponder the fact that he is not dealing with criticism against the Government only.

May I ask a question?

No, the hon. member should rather listen. Sir, he only wants to place a slanted construction upon the matter by means of the question he wants to ask me. He must listen to what I have to say now. The hon. member should bethink himself, because here he is drawing irresponsible conclusions that affect private industries, industries that cannot defend themselves in this House, and are completely exposed. That is the way in which the hon. member for Orange Grove wants to deal with private industries in this country. I take the strongest exception to his making political capital out of this, and I again want to tell the hon. member that all the conclusions he has drawn are devoid of all truth. I think the time has now come that I should also say that the country outside should simply take no notice of Press statements made by the hon. member for Orange Grove, because in most cases they are the most irresponsible statements one can imagine.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a Third Time.

I move the amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper, as follows—

This particular clause deals with the discharge of a member of the staff, appointed permanently and, in the clause as it stands, there are six reasons for which a member of the staff of the University may be dismissed by the council: On account of attaining the pensionable age; in the case of a female, on account of her marriage; on account of continued ill health; owing to the abolition of his post or to any reduction in or reorganization or readjustment of the staff of the University; if his discharge will in the opinion of the council facilitate improvements in the organization of the university by means of which greater efficiency or economy will be effected; and finally, in terms of the conditions of service governing his appointment. Now, in terms of my amendment I propose that paragraphs (b) and (e) shall be omitted. Paragraph (b) reads: “In the case of a female, on account of her marriage.” First of all, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister one question. During the course of this debate, both in the Second Reading and in the Committee Stage, the Minister indicated on numerous occasions that various clauses are in operation in certain universities, not necessarily in South Africa, but in some parts of the world. I would be interested to hear whether this is a clause which is embodied in many university statutes in other parts of the world, because as far as I am aware it certainly does not apply under the Universities Act in South Africa, and I believe it is quite unique in so far as university legislation is concerned. Not only do I want to ask the Minister that, but I also want to ask him whether, if this clause should be enforced—and I appreciate that it is a permissive clause because it says the council “may”—it will not aggravate the existing teacher shortage. One only has to read the recent report of the Commission appointed to investigate the Teachers Training Bill to see in several instances that they say “owing to the acute manpower shortage”. It seems to me that the Minister is now condoning the introduction of a womanpower shortage, because this is a clause which, as far as I know, has not been embodied in other legislation. Is the Minister suggesting that this clause should be included because he feels that if a woman on the staff of the university, who has given good service, suddenly takes unto herself a soulmate, she may become subject to subversive influences because her husband may have a harmful effect on life on the campus? Because if that is the case, I believe it to be a very weak argument. I think it could apply just as well to a man who is on the lecturing staff and suddenly takes unto himself a wife. I think the Minister is underestimating the influence women may have in the lives of men, if he is prepared to differentiate on that basis.

Then I come to the second amendment, and that is to omit paragraph (e), which says he may be dismissed by the council if his discharge will in the opinion of the council facilitate improvements in the organization of the university, by means of which greater efficiency or economy will be effected. I do not believe that that provision is really necessary in this particular context. I believe that the reasons listed under the other headings are quite adequate and I do not believe that the council should be invested with that sort of power. It does not seem to me to be fair and I ask the Minister to omit these two paragraphs.

At the outset of his argument the hon. member asked the hon. the Minister whether this clause was contained in any University Act, if I understood him correctly, and in terms of his amendment the hon. member then objected to two paragraphs of the clause, i.e. paragraphs (b) and (e). This is somewhat illogical. If he objects on the grounds that this clause does not appear in other university legislation, he should object to the clause as a whole and not only to certain paragraphs. Sir, if I am not mistaken, this entire clause was taken word by word from the Public Service Act. This provision is applicable to and valid in respect of all State institutions. A matter such as the capacity in which a woman may be re-employed after her marriage or whether she may be re-employed in a similar post, or a post of the same nature, is a matter on which the council, in my opinion, should decide. It is not necessary to omit the paragraphs or to provide here that she should be re-employed. The council can decide on that matter.

Rubbish!

I do not know what “rubbish” is seen in this by the hon. member who interrupted me. We know what her attitude is as regards matters in respect of the married woman.

Then I come to paragraph (e), which I should like to read out again—

Sir, I think this is a very fair provision. The hon. member alleged that this was unnecessary. This is an exclusively domestic matter. Here the council is being empowered specifically to act in this way. I repeat that this is a domestic matter, and I should like to mention one example: If, for example, a member of the staff is inefficient or if a member of the staff neglects his duty, or if as a result of a state of disease he is unable to continue, surely it is necessary for the council to take a decision in connection with that member of the staff, because to replace him with another person will promote greater efficiency or economy. For that reason specific provision is being made for the council to take this task on itself. Throughout the representations made here by hon. members and throughout the arguments advanced here by them, they objected to the powers of the Minister and asked for more powers to be given to the council. In this provision certain powers are being given to the council, but the hon. member still objects to this provision. I simply cannot see how the hon. member can object to certain parts of this clause and not to others.

The hon. the Minister took particular umbrage at the remarks I made about this clause when I spoke during the Second-Reading debate on this Bill. He was very incensed because I said that this clause, if nothing else, proved that this so-called university would be nothing but a glorified school. The reason I gave was that this particular clause appeared to be taken holus-bolus from the Coloured Persons Education Act which, as we all know, governs the school education of Coloured children. I do not know whether the Minister in his reply acknowledged the existence of this clause in the Coloured Persons Education Act, but he went on to tell me that this very clause appeared in the University College of Fort Hare Constitution. Also, he made the point, which has now been made by the hon. member for Koedoespoort, that this clause has been taken word for word from the Public Service Act. [Interjections.] Well, let us say that materially it was taken from that Act. I am not concerned about whether it appears in the Public Service Act or not. We are not dealing with the Public Service here; we are dealing with the creation of a university …

With professional people.

We are dealing with professional people, expert people, people who are meant to be given responsibility for taking charge of the higher education of the students who go to the University of Fort Hare. We are not dealing with the Public Service. Perhaps that point has not struck the hon. member for Koedoespoort or the hon. the Minister. We are not dealing either with the University College of Fort Hare. We are not creating the University College of Fort Hare by this Bill; we are creating, we believe, or the Minister appears to believe, the University of Fort Hare. Therefore one would expect a completely different set of circumstances to apply to the staff of the university as against the University College of Fort Hare. The hon. the Minister’s argument therefore is absurd, and I maintain that my argument holds good that there is no place for a section, which is to be found either in the University College of Fort Hare Act, the Public Service Act or the Coloured Persons Education Act, in a Bill which is creating an autonomous university such as we have heard about from hon. members on the other side.

This does not belong in this particular constitution, and I am going to vote against it, of course. I take exception to the whole clause. I think the whole clause should be reworded to bring it more into line with the Constitution of other universities. I agree, of course, that the two particular paragraphs, which have been referred to, should be omitted. I think paras. (d) and (e) should be omitted as well as para. (b), but let me deal with (b) first, because that incenses me particularly. Just imagine that a female, when she marries, can be kicked out of her post at the university! I want the hon. the Minister to give me the name of any other university in South Africa or elsewhere, Greece notwithstanding, where a woman lecturer, a university lecturer or a university professor, loses her job because she marries. That used to apply years and years ago at the White universities in this country. I can remember when Mrs. Ballinger, I think, suffered the same unhappy fate. Her job at the Witwatersrand University was not only jeopardized when she married but I believe she was no longer able to stay on, or at any rate there was such a threat. Those days, however, have long since passed. This is a modern country and women are employed in every walk of life in South Africa to-day, and to suggest that a woman lecturer at a university or a professor should lose her job when she marries, is an absolute anachronism in this day and age.

I wonder if the hon. the Minister knows where he is going to get the staff from for his universities if universities dismiss women lecturers and professors as soon as they have married. Does he think that there are dozens of teachers lined up, ready to take these jobs? Does he not know about the shortage of staff at every single university, with chairs vacant and lectureships vacant, pinching staff from one another inside South Africa because they are not attracting people from outside. Yet the hon. the Minister has the impertinence—that is the only way that I can describe it in this day and age—to put this clause in a university constitution. It is a shocking clause, and I might say that paras. (d) and (e) are pretty bad too, because under (d) and (e) there is no security of tenure whatsoever for any member of the staff at the Fort Hare University or any of the other universities which have a similar clause in their constitution. There is no security of tenure because the hon. the Minister can abolish a post if he does not think it is in the interest of the university to retain the post, or he can discharge a person if in his opinion or in the opinion of the council it will facilitate improvement in the organization of the university.

The council, as has been pointed out over and over again, consists of the Minister’s appointees, so the Minister has only to say that in his opinion the discharge of So-and-So will in fact improve the organization of the university, or he can say that in his opinion a post which has been created by him should be abolished, and that person then loses his job. There is no security of tenure therefore, under paras. (d) and (e). I believe that any self-respecting staff of any self-respecting university in South Africa would fight the inclusion of a clause like this tooth and nail, and I am going to vote against this clause entirely.

Sir, I do not like this clause. There are many things in it that I dislike. In the first place I do not like the word “dismiss”. “Dismiss” has a completely different connotation from what is intended here. You can retire a person; you can terminate his services, but when you “dismiss” a person it is similar to sacking him and that is not what you are doing here. When a woman marries you do not dismiss her because she has married; you terminate her services; she may not continue. That is the first point I wish to make. I do not like the word “dismiss”. Sir, let us take para. (e). For what reasons can a man be dismissed? He can be dismissed if his discharge will result in greater economy. In other words, if you want to save his salary, you can dismiss him. He has no security of tenure. The man is told: “We want to save the money that we are spending on your salary, so you must get out.”

Well, I do not think that is the purpose of a university bill. Surely we must give the man something better than this. It does not help to say that his provision appears in other legislation. Sir, there is another point I wish to make and it is something that I have had on my mind ever since Fort Hare was established, and this is the very clause to which I wish to refer. When Fort Hare was established the staff were classified in three classes; first of all, members of the staff who wished to remain at Fort Hare as a Government institution; secondly, those whom the Minister did not wish to have and whose services he wanted to terminate, and, thirdly, those men who said: “I have been a lecturer or a professor in a university; I do not wish to remain in a Government institution.”

Sir, I am quite certain that these circumstances can crop up again. This is how they were dealt with—and that is why I want to deal with the “abolition of posts” as a reason. The hon. the Minister said to those who wished to stay: “You can carry on; you will get your pension rights and everything will continue as if there has been no change.” He said to those he did not wish to have, including some people from overseas who had been at the old Fort Hare: “I do not wish to retain your services, but I will give you full pension rights and something extra, and a gratuity,” they left Fort Hare and some of them left South Africa with their pockets bulging with money. Now I come to the third class. They said to the men, who would not stay, that they would be treated, as far as pension rights are concerned, under the section of the Public Service Act dealing with the abolition of posts, and this is what happened: Those men got their gratuity money—that could not be refused—but they lost their pension rights.

Order!

Sir, that is what can happen here if these men are dismissed under the section governing the abolition of posts. Those men lost their pension rights. I have raised this matter in this House on more than one occasion. Sir, one man lost almost R14,000. He was a great South African, a distinguished man in later life and he was an acting principal. He was one of the seven persons who did not remain. There were six Africans and one white man. They forfeited all this, and for that reason I support the hon. member for Durban (Berea) when he says that the fact that this clause appears in the Public Service Act is not sufficient reason for its inclusion here.

I just want to add a few words in support of what has been said by the hon. member for Durban (Berea) in moving this amendment. As the Committee will probably surmise, I want to deal with para, (b) which talks about the dismissal of a female on account of her marriage. Sir, I am surprised to hear the hon. member for Koedoespoort adduce the ridiculous reason that this is a clause which appears in the Public Service Act as though that is sufficient justification for continuing a system in this country which has become archaic. There is no justification for it, in whatever sort of Statute it appears in South Africa at the present time. It is absolutely archaic. I must say, speaking as a woman myself, that we really think it is time the authorities in South Africa grew up a little with regard to this type of legislation. Sir, as the hon. member for Houghton has suggested, can you imagine anything more ridiculous than dismissing a woman member of the academic staff simply because she gets married, a woman who, since she has achieved that sort of position, no doubt has precisely the same qualifications as her male counterpart or colleague? Can you imagine a situation where in this day and age in any university, if it is going to be a university, a woman is automatically faced with the prospect of dismissal because she gets married?

It is not automatic.

It may not be automatic, but I do not even think that it should be included in the Statute. It is ridiculous. It is absolutely absurd. Perhaps the Minister will elucidate, but as I read this clause I imagine that it must apply to the administrative staff as well, because the word “staff” covers not only the academic staff, but also the administrative staff. Really, Sir, if it is the Minister’s intention that clerical staff, or anyone else who happens to be attached to the university, shall be dismissed after marriage, it is quite fantastic. Certainly, in the teaching profession, we know only too well that very often the most highly qualified and experienced teachers are married women who have been teaching for many years. These are the people who are very often appointed on a temporary basis after their marriage. We disapprove of that as well. The hon. member for Koedoespoort produced what seemed to me to be a very strange argument. I do not know what sort of working married women they have in Koedoespoort, but obviously he is not “with it” at all as far as this type of thing is concerned. This is surely not an internal matter for the council of a university to decide upon. Surely they should not have these powers of dismissal in regard to the women members of staff? We take the strongest exception to this principle. It is time that the authorities in all spheres in South Africa realized that this should remain a personal decision to be taken by the couple concerned. The individuals concerned should be able to make their own decisions, because this is a personal matter. If a woman marries, no matter what her job, or in what capacity she serves, whether it be academic, or professional or in business, teaching, or anything else, the decision as to whether or not she will stay on in that field of activity after marriage, if she is competent in her job, should be an individual decision. It should not have anything to do with the Public Service or a university council or any other governing body. As the hon. member for Berea said, one does not find this provision in any other university statute that I know of. I think that the provinces themselves, in regard to the teaching profession, are to-day waking up to the fact that married women should be appointed increasingly on a permanent basis, if only because of the chronic shortage of staff in the academic field. If that can apply to a school, surely to goodness that principle should apply with even greater relevance to women who are employed by a university, whether they are members of the administrative or academic staff, and irrespective of their colour or anything else. I give all my support to those who have moved and spoken in favour of this amendment.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Will he tell us whether he would be satisfied to retain paragraphs (a), (c) and (f)? That is what our criticism amounts to.

Mr. Chairman, in reply to the question of the hon. member for Kensington, I shall not be satisfied to retain only those few paragraphs. Hon. members from the opposite side who addressed the Committee dealt with virtually the same points. I should like to reply to their speeches point by point.

In the first place I should like to emphasize what was said by the hon. member for Algoa by way of interjection. The hon. member for Wynberg was correct in saying that this provision covered administrative staff as well. I do think, however, that too many members on the opposite side tried to suggest that any woman, i.e. a female lecturer or a female administrative officer, would automatically lose her position on her marriage. That is not what this legislation provides for. This very clearly is a permissive provision in this Act. The words used are “kan” and “may”. For hours I listened here to the sacrosanctity of the autonomy of the council. Here provision is being made to enable the council to do this work. Now I know that hon. members will say that the council simply is Michiel Coenraad Botha. I know hon. members will say this. But here it is being provided that the council may do this work. Hon. members will also notice in clause 14 that that very same ogre of whom such a great deal was said, i.e. the Minister, may veto the decision of the council if he wishes to do so. In other words, the council may decide that a woman should retire on her marriage. The Minister may veto that if a replacement for her cannot be found. In terms of the clause it is possible to do so. But hon. members opposite do not argue like this. They merely argue along one line. They only have one way of arguing and that is to hold up their own hypothesis to themselves. The hon. member for Berea asked me where else this practice was to be found. Now hon. members will probably not want to hear, or they will be very sorry to hear, that this very same position is the practice in terms of the statutes of other universities in South Africa. I am not going to mention any names.

Why not?

It is my business why I do not want to mention the name. There is no need to mention the name, but I can tell hon. members that I have had inquiries made today into the position at a certain white university in South Africa. The position there is that if a female member of the staff marries, she loses her post. This applies to a member of the academic as well as the administrative staff.

I know why you will not tell us the name of the university.

Mr. Chairman, who is addressing this Committee? May I know whether or not I am the one who is doing so?

Order!

The hon. member for Houghton should kindly display her manners here. That will help me to finish. [Interjections.]

Order! If objection is made to interjections, I shall take strict action. In that case I shall not allow one single interjection. The hon. the Minister may proceed.

It is very difficult to reply to the hon. member for Houghton if she does not want to listen. The position at that university, as I ascertained it to-day, is very clear. If a female member of the staff, for example a woman lecturer or a woman professor, marries, she has to apply anew to be retained in service after her marriage. She is then retained in service on a temporary basis. Now I wonder whether anybody would say that I am making misrepresentations or telling lies. If hon. members accept this their entire analogy that this does not happen anywhere else in South Africa falls away. This is the position as I ascertained it in respect of a university. I can see no reason why I should mention the names of our universities here unnecessarily. This is the factual position, and hon. members opposite may ascertain for themselves whether or not this is so.

Is this the position at all universities, or only at one?

I did not telephone all nine universities in order to ascertain what their statutes are. That hon. member has more time than I have, and he may well do so. [Interjections.] I said that I would not mention the name of the university.

Why are you ashamed of it?

I am not ashamed of it, and least of all when it concerns that university.

As I have said, the position is very clear. If a female member of the staff of that university marries, she has to apply anew to be retained in service after her marriage. She is then employed on a temporary basis. I have already pointed out that this clause is permissive. Hon. members on this side of the House pointed out that these measures also applied in the Public Service. The hon. member for Wynberg may scoff at the Public Service as much as she likes. We are used to that. We are quite used to it that she and other hon. members scoff at the Public Service. But in spite of this attitude we have an excellent Public Service. This principle is a general and recognized phenomenon everywhere. Even in the private sector it happens that when a woman member of the staff marries, it does not follow ipso facto that she continues in service on her previous conditions of service. That is also the position in this regard, and I cannot sec anything sinister in that. I can see nothing wrong with that. In the past this position obtained at these colleges as well as at Fort Hare. Some of the colleges requested this provision. For particular reasons some of them requested this provision very specifically.

The hon. member for Berea, as well as the hon. member for Houghton, asked whether there was an acute shortage of teaching staff. We know there is an acute shortage of teaching staff. For this very reason this is a permissive and not a mandatory provision in this Bill. Had it been mandatory, it might have landed us in difficulties. But do you think, Sir, that any of these councils, and particularly the rector, would dismiss any woman who marries from service in a case where a lecturer is not available while the students are in the lecture room and when they know that they do not have a male lecturer or another female lecturer to replace her? Indeed, they would be fools if they were to do so. Why would they do so? If provision were to be made in the Bill that they had to do so, it would mean that we would deny them every opportunity of using their intelligence. But, because of the permissive character of this Bill, we are giving them the right to use their intelligence, according to practical circumstances. And to come and tell me now that they will not use their intelligence really is something in the nature of making too high a demand on one’s general knowledge. The hon. member for Kensington raised one point to which I am sympathetically inclined. If the hon. member wants to give me some assistance in this regard, I am prepared to listen to him. This point relates to the words “dismiss” and “ontslaan”. If the hon. member wants to suggest anything else so as to phrase this more positively, so that this will not sound so nasty—the hon. member said the words “dismiss” and “ontslaan” sounded nasty to him—then he should do so with a view to the inclusion of his suggestion in the preamble of this clause. Of course, it is not at all the intention to attach a nasty stigma to this as the hon. member alleged. I think these are the only points which were raised.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister started by referring to the question of the autonomy of this university and that of the council and stated that we had earlier pleaded for greater autonomy to be given to this council and that where he is now giving certain powers to the council we take exception thereto. But, surely, the hon. the Minister must realize that when we plead for greater autonomy for the university and its council, it is within the limits prescribed by this Bill. It is within the limits which will be prescribed in the Act for the University. I do not agree with the hon. the Minister’s argument that we are now going against our previous arguments in regard to autonomy. We feel that anybody who is employed by this university will be employed under a contract of service entered into between … Mr. Chairman, it is no good speaking as the hon. the Minister is not paying attention to what I am saying.

I am just busy writing out a message which is intended for your side of the House.

Surely, the hon. the Minister realizes that anybody employed by this university will be employed under a contract of service entered into between the university as the employer and the individual as the employee. We feel that such a contract of service should be unfettered and that it should be a matter of negotiation between employer and employee. But the conditions which the hon. the Minister is laying down now fetters both the employee and the council. What price his argument now about the autonomy of the council? He is now tying the council because when it employs anybody they are compelled to insert these conditions into any contract of employment. This is not giving any greater freedom to the council. In fact, it is tying greater knots around their autonomy and freedom. The hon. the Minister also mentioned about the women that are being employed and that they can be re-employed. The hon. member for Koedoespoort said the same thing. And I wanted to ask the hon. the Minister the question which he answered for me. They are now going to be re-employed on a temporary basis. This is one of the points raised by my hon. friend the member for Kensington. They are going to lose the pension rights they had prior to marriage.

The hon. member is now repeating previous arguments.

With respect, Mr. Chairman, I will abide by your decision. There is another point which has become quite apparent in this debate on this clause. During the Second Reading debate on this Bill, I said to the hon. the Minister that what he was creating here was not a university as we have come to accept the term in South Africa, but a Government department.

Order! The hon. member should come back to the clause and the amendments and not refer to the Second Reading debate in general terms.

Mr. Chairman, I am not speaking generally. This is one of the clauses which led me to that conclusion. These terms and conditions which are laid down here make it sound like another branch of the Government service, and this was confirmed this afternoon by the hon. member for Koedoespoort. That hon. member said that this was taken directly from the Public Service Act. If the hon. member for Koedoespoort had taken a look at the Public Service Act, he would have found that they are not the same. The principles are perhaps the same. This brings us back to the very point whether we in this Committee are creating a university or are we creating merely another Government department? I say we are creating merely another Government department, which is not in the best interests of the people whom we are trying to serve, namely the Bantu people generally and in particular the Xhosa people. It is not in their best interests that we should merely create another Government department, another section of the Department of Bantu Education for them. Let us create a university and let us give them the rights of a University.

Mr. Chairman, I do not know why the hon. the Minister is so coy about naming the university that has this clause in its, constitution. If he thinks it is a good clause, he should be prepared to boast about it. Why the hon. the Minister has been so coy with us, I would not know at all. Perhaps he is frightened that some women’s organizations might start agitating about this, that the Vrouefederasie or something might start agitating against it. I do not know why he does not tell us. But let us leave that aside.

Or the Black Sash.

It may be the Black Sash. Who knows? I do not know what university it is. But it is certainly not a clause which is likely to be approved by any women with any pretentions at all to academic training. Every answer that the hon. the Minister gave us was not a positive stand in so far as this clause is concerned. It was a defence. He kept on telling us that it was permissive. We all know it is permissive. The word “may” means permissive. We know that. But the point is that it should not be there at all. There should be no possibility of any woman being dismissed because she has committed matrimony. That is the point. And whether it is the council of the hon. the Minister or whether the Minister has the right to veto any council decisions, is quite irrelevant. The point is that this does not belong in the statute of a modern university. I should be surprised to find that any of our other great modern universities have this in their statutes. I do not believe that changing the word “dismiss” to “discharge”, “kick out”, “fire”, or any other word you may care to insert, is going to make the slightest difference. It is a question of calling a rose by any other name and all that jazz. It means the same thing. It means the woman loses her job or may lose her job if the council so decides and the Minister does not veto that decision. I am afraid, therefore, that the omission of the word “dismiss” and the insertion in the place thereof of “discharge”, or any other word that the hon. the Minister is contemplating, does not make the slightest difference to my basic objection.

Mr. Chairman, I have some sympathy with the attitude adopted by the hon. member for Houghton in connection with the position of female members of the staff. One is coming to realize more and more to what extent women are beginning to enter in ever-growing numbers the academic sphere of our universities, that sanctum which used to be the virtually exclusive domain of the male, and that they are doing very good and useful work there. One should like to give them some degree of continuity in those positions, but now hon. members cannot say that this clause does not belong in the statute of a modern university at all. This has actually been a traditional practice throughout the years. I may be wrong, but I think that as far as the Afrikaans-language white universities in South Africa are concerned, this is a traditional practice. It goes without saying and it most definitely is so that when a woman in such a position who is a useful and satisfactory worker, enters into a marriage, her appointment will most definitely be reconfirmed. But this will be done on a temporary basis, because a married woman is, from the nature of the case, a temporary employee.

This argument too has been raised before.

Why hon. members on the opposite side of this House are making such a fuss about this clause, I really do not know. I think this clause is very fair and reasonable. If I myself were in charge of this, I would perhaps have added a great deal more to this. It is not an easy task to dismiss a lecturer from his post, nor should one want to see that it should be easy to do so. After all, one must afford the necessary protection to these people who have high academic qualifications. But we are living in a time when these people can potentially do a great deal of harm at a university. The story is told of a professor who went fishing regularly and never attended his lectures. The council cannot dismiss him. No provision was made for his dismissal. The story may be a fabrication, but this can happen. To this one would be able to add that a person could be dismissed on account of neglect of duty or on account of intentional and malicious disregard of council decisions. I have in mind something of this nature which will afford the council increased powers. And at the back of all this there still is ministerial protection. If the council were to decide to get rid of a difficult person, he could always still appeal to the Minister. Therefore he does have this strong protection. I really think this clause does not go far enough.

Mr. Chairman, those of us who have been employed in the profession of education know that when we accept a post we enter into a contract. There is an employer and an employee. Now, if this is part of the contract it means that the discretion rests only with the employer at any time. He can decide to dispense with the services of the employee. I know it is sometimes argued that when a man accepts a post he does so under these conditions. But it is not a fair condition to impose when the man is employed. That is the point I wish to make. And, therefore, I think the hon. the Minister will be very well advised to accept the suggestion I made, namely that he should retain those three, namely (a), (c) and (f). I think that should be sufficient for him. It will cover all that he requires, and if the hon. the Minister is not prepared to do that, I think we must vote against the clause.

Is the hon. the Minister not going to answer?

I gave my answers when the hon. member was outside this House.

I have not been outside the House.

Outside this Chamber.

I have not been outside the Chamber since the Minister gave his last reply. There is another matter that I wish to raise. The hon. the Minister said that a woman could apply again to be appointed to whatever position she forfeited when she got married. The hon. member for Koedoespoort said that these provisions were virtually the same as those in the Public Service Commission Act.

And the arguments are virtually the same as those that have been put forward by other hon. members.

With respect, Sir, you have not heard me yet. What I want to say is that that is in fact not so. They are not exactly the same. And there is a very important difference. I think the hon. the Minister might well think whether he should not in fact import the provisions of the Public Service Act as being much better than these provisions in this Bill. I am not detracting at all from the argument that it does not matter what is in the Public Service Act, because that Act does not apply to a university. But what are the provisions in the Public Service Act? I am reading from Butterworths Consolidated, volume 17, page 239. The Act provides—

—and here comes the big difference—

It seems to me, looking at this, that she would be entitled to say, “If I get married will you recommend that I stay on?”. It might be a terribly important question.

But not permanently. Not on a permanent basis.

It says so. The effect of this is if there is no recommendation from the Commission and the Minister or Administrator, whoever it may be, does not approve, then she is deemed to have been discharged on that day, she is deemed to have retired voluntarily, at any rate her services cease. But if the Commission makes such recommendation and the Minister of the department concerned, or the Administrator, approves, then she continues. At least she can find out whether that recommendation and approval are forthcoming before she gets married. This is the point. Surely, that is the least a woman is entitled to know. She is entitled to know whether she is to be retained. The Minister’s suggestion puts her in this position that she has to get married, while she does not know whether she will be retained. It may be terribly important to the contraction of the marriage for her to know whether she has got this job or whether she has not, whether in the circumstances she can stay on or not. But she cannot ascertain what will happen. She has to take a chance and hope for the bounty of the Committee. But in the civil service she is able to apply beforehand for a recommendation from the Commission and get the approval of the Minister, and so, before she gets married, she knows that she will be retained in the service. Does he not consider that something like this should be in the Bill, in all fairness to women on the staff who want to get married? In these days it is very important for women when they first get married to have employment, and it is a very important part of the contemplation and the consummation of marriage.

Mr. Chairman, I replied so fully to all points of view that I really cannot add anything new in connection with the matter advocated by the hon. member for Berea. I said very explicitly that the services of a woman could be retained, although not on a permanent basis. To that I added that this would be nothing unique in our case, as we also had these circumstances at some of our white universities in South Africa. I said that would be on a temporary basis; I said the Minister could veto this if it was in the interests of the institution to do so; I said that I had every confidence that the councils would act in the best interests of the universities, etc. I have no new argument with which to serve the hon. member; I have said everything possible. I regret that I cannot reconsider the point. The colleges considered these aspects very carefully and they asked for them.

Amendment put and negatived (Official Opposition and Mrs. H. Suzman dissenting).

Clause, as printed, put and the Committee divided:

AYES—93: Bodenstein, P.; Botha, H. J.; Botha, M. C.; Botha, M. W.; Botha, S. P.; Carr, D. M.; Coetzee, B.; Coetzee, J. A.; Cruywagen, W. A.; De Jager, P. R.; De Wet, J. M.; Du Plessis, A. H.; Du Plessis, H. R. H.; Engelbrecht, J. J.; Erasmus, A. S. D.; Erasmus, J. J. P.; Frank, S.; Froneman, G. F. van L.; Greyling, J. C.; Grobler, M. S. F.; Havemann, W. W. B.; Hayward, S. A. S.; Henning, J. M.; Herman, F.; Heystek, J.; Janson, T. N. H.; Jurgens, J. C.; Keyter, H. C. A.; Koornhof, P. G. J.; Kotzé, S. F.; Kruger, J. T.; Langley, T.; Le Roux, F. J.; Le Roux, J. P. C.; Lewis, H. M.; Malan, G. F.; Malan, J. J.; Malan, W. C.; Marais, J. A.; Marais, P. S.; Maree, G. de K.; McLachlan, R.; Meyer, P. H.; Morrison, G. de V.; Mulder, C. P.; Muller, S. L.; Otto, J. C.; Pansegrouw, J. S.; Pelser, P. C.; Pienaar, B.; Pieterse, R. J. J.; Potgieter, J. E.; Rall, M. J.; Raubenheimer, A. J.; Raubenheimer, A. L.; Reinecke, C. J.; Reyneke, J. P. A.; Roux, P. C.; Sadie, N. C. van R.; Schlebusch, J. A.; Schoeman, B. J.; Schoeman, H.; Schoeman, J. C. B.; Smit, H. H.; Smith, J. D.; Stofberg, L. F.; Swiegers, J. G.; Torlage, P. H.; Treurnicht, N. F.; Uys, D. C. H.; Van Breda, A.; Van den Berg, M. J.; Van der Merwe, H. D. K.; Van der Merwe, W. L.; Van Niekerk, M. C; Van Rensburg, M. C. G. J.; Van Staden, J. W.; Van Tonder, J. A.; Van Zyl, J. J. B.; Venter, M. J. de la R.; Viljoen, M.; Viljoen, P. J. van B.; Volker, V. A.; Vorster, B. J.; Vorster, L. P. J.; Vosloo, A. H.; Vosloo, W. L.; Waring, F. W.; Wentzel, J. J.

Tellers: G. P. C. Bezuidenhout, G. P. van den Berg, P. S. van der Merwe and W. L. D. M. Venter.

NOES—33: Basson, J. A. L.; Basson, J. D. du P.; Bennett, C.; Eden, G. S.; Emdin, S.; Fisher, E. L.; Graaff, De V.; Higgerty, J. W.; Jacobs, G. F.; Kingwill, W. G.; Malan, E. G.; Marais, D. J.; Mitchell, D. E.; Mitchell, M. L.; Moolman, J. H.; Moore, P. A.; Oldfield, G. N.; Radford, A.; Raw, W. V.; Smith, W. J. B.; Streicher, D. M.; Sutton, W. M.; Suzman, H.; Taylor, C. D.; Thompson, J. O. N.; Timoney, H. M.; Wainwright, C. J. S.; Waterson, S. F.; Webber, W. T.; Winchester, L. E. D.; Wood, L. F.

Tellers: H. J. Bronkhorst and A. Hopewell.

Clause, as printed, accordingly agreed to.

Clause 18:

Mr. Chairman, a little earlier in the debate the hon. the Minister took umbrage when I referred to the fact that after appointing the council, he then proceeded to go ahead and pass a vote of no confidence in that council. This is the clause which I should like to dub “the no confidence in the council clause”. As I said, and as we know from the debates on previous clauses, the hon. the Minister appoints all the members of the council, in effect. In terms of this clause he is taking away all the powers they have, and takes a power by which he can after he has taken the full responsibility for appointing those people, control them even further. In terms of subsection (2), if in the opinion of the Minister any staff member has committed an act of misconduct and the council fails to do so, the Minister may direct the council to institute an inquiry. If after directing them to institute an inquiry he is not happy that they will take the necessary action, he takes the power, according to subsection (3), either to approve of the action which they contemplate or to direct that they shall take such other action as he might consider necessary. He is taking the powers of the high priest of Fort Hare. This is the reason why I said that this Bill is not giving autonomy to the university. It is no extension of rights to this university college and creating of it a university. It is really taking more administrative control on the part of the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I must record my objection to this clause. I really cannot imagine why the hon. the Minister has taken it upon himself to supersede the right of the council to exercise control over its staff, to investigate misconduct or inefficiency on the part of its staff. It seems to be a very highhanded clause indeed. Even if the council has investigated and has decided what action it should take against a member of the staff, if in the hon. the Minister’s opinion that action is not sufficiently drastic, or is too drastic, he can reverse the decisions of the council in regard to its own staff. I do not know whether this is a clause common to our other universities. I doubt very much that it is so. This means too that there is no right of appeal. At all other universities, if a member of the staff is dismissed by the council, that staff member has the right of appeal to the hon. the Minister of National Education. But in this case, by virtue of the fact that the hon. the Minister sits in judgment himself, there is, of course, automatically no right of appeal whatsoever. I believe, too, that this denigrates the status of the university, and I wish to record my objection to this clause.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot accept the statement of the hon. member for Houghton and other members on the other side that this clause is not compatible with the work of a university as is the intention of the Bill. This clause is taken over exactly as it stands from the legislation concerning the university colleges. It has been inserted in this Bill at the explicit request of the councils of all the colleges. As I have said before, we have consulted and negotiated with them with regard to these Bills, and they have definitely asked for the retention of this clause as it appears in the existing legislation. I just cannot accept the complaints of hon. members on the other side, because this is being done on the request of the councils. They really should know better than we do.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister has justified this clause on the grounds that this is the law as it stands at the moment with regard to the colleges. Surely, the whole object of this Bill is to elevate the colleges to university status. Here we have a long clause giving the Minister power to interfere with what would normally be the functions of the council. There are four subsections to the clause, laying down in detail how the Minister can go about it. Then the Minister still justifies it on the grounds that this was acceptable to the colleges which are not yet universities. The Minister should realize how very far the provisions of this clause differ from what one finds when it comes to the appointment and dismissal of staff members at a proper university, one of our white universities, for example. I want to quote from the Rhodes University Act in this connection. This is what it says about appointment and dismissal of staff. It says that professors, lecturers and other teachers at the university shall be appointed by the council after consultation with the senate or with such faculty or committee thereof as may be appointed for that purpose by the senate. Then it goes on to say that the conditions of service of members of the teaching staff shall be prescribed by the council, provided that the discharge from office of any such person who has been permanently appointed to a post by the Minister shall be subject to a right of appeal to the Minister. Here exactly the opposite is taking place. There is no right of appeal to the Minister given and the Minister is taking the right to interfere in the affairs of the university. I want to ask the Minister this. In line 20 there are the words “who is alleged to be inefficient or whose conduct is alleged to be unsatisfactory”. From whom are these allegations going to come?

Order! On what clause is the hon. member addressing the Committee now?

Clause 18 (1), line 20.

It is not surprising you cannot follow.

Order! What is the hon. member insinuating by saying that it is not surprising that I cannot follow?

I am not insinuating anything Mr. Chairman. I think it is a very difficult matter to follow.

I think the hon. member should withdraw that.

I withdraw it.

The hon. member may proceed.

I was dealing with the procedure to be adopted in the case of a member of the staff of the university who is alleged to be inefficient or whose conduct is alleged to be unsatisfactory. Who is going to make these allegations? Will it be the council or the senate of the university? This opens a tremendously wide field for people to go running to the Minister to make allegations about the conduct of the staff. Or is it the Security Police who will allege that his conduct is unsatisfactory? I think the Minister should think again about this matter.

I do not know what suspicions the hon. member for Albany has in regard to people who can allege all sorts of things in connection with the members of the staff at universities, but surely we must have the trust in the council to know that they will not just listen to any sort of gossip that reaches them. I think we can accept that these university councils are responsible bodies who will be able to protect their staff against gossip which should not be taken any further. If there is a proper allegation coming from proper persons, then they are the persons to go into it and this is the procedure laid down here. Besides, in subsection (4) there is still this overriding responsibility on the Minister to table all those reports here in both Houses so that he can be taken to task if he allows something improper to happen at the university.

At the Second Reading I referred to a case which occurred at Fort Hare. On several occasions in the House I raised the matter under these regulations and eventually the lecturer had charges laid against him and an investigation was held by the council. After I had even asked on the Minister’s Vote for a copy of the proceedings and received them, I am still convinced that that man did not get what I would regard as a fair deal. I say he was not tried by his peers to begin with, although his peers were in the advisory council. They were in the advisory council, but they were never consulted. Why have an advisory council and all this paraphernalia we have here and then have this man tried on a charge which I think could not be substantiated? Of course I did not have all the evidence and I could not decide, but I am quite convinced, not that there was a miscarriage of justice—I would not say that—but that there was not a complete investigation as there should have been.

The hon. members opposite are trying to arouse suspicion where none really exists. This clause deals with the incompetence of a staff member, or with his misconduct. Those are the two matters at issue here. After all, there must be some or other form of machinery by means of which the university authorities can rid themselves of a man who is incapable of doing his work. Or must he be kept on there and protected, and must the taxpayers’ money be wasted in this way? The question of misconduct can also crop up and there must be some way in which the university council can take steps against a person who commits a misdemeanour. If, for some reason or other, the university council perhaps does not deem it advisable to take steps itself, a stage must be reached where the Minister can act and get rid of the person, or order a university council to do so. After all, this is a very necessary clause. I cannot see how there can be any suspicion in regard to it, or that any unjustifiable or unfair steps can be taken against any person. The Minister is after all the responsible person, who, here as well, has to answer for any steps he may take in that regard, and he can be hauled over the coals here if he were to take any irresponsible steps. That is why this clause, in my opinion, is essential.

The Minister has been at great pains to say that the council should be trusted and that the council can run this matter properly, and one should not worry at all, because after all there is the council. But whether the council will perform its duties in the way one hopes it will, having regard to the way in which the Minister will appoint it, is another matter. But if one looks at the proposed section 18 (2)—this is after the Minister’s pious words about the council—one sees that it says that if in the opinion of the Minister any staff member has committed any act or omitted to do any act and thereby renders himself liable to a charge of misconduct or inefficiency in terms of his conditions of service, if the council then fails to institute an inquiry within a month after the Minister has asked them to do so, then the Minister himself can institute an inquiry. I find it rather interesting to find a provision like this when the Minister says that we can leave it entirely to the council. If the council is there and they know what is going on and they are running the show, how is the Minister going to have an opinion? From whom is he going to get the information to form an opinion which is different, obviously, from the one the council has? The Minister has in mind that his opinion is going to be a different opinion from that of the council, these people whom he says are there on the spot and know what is going on and who must run the show. But he contemplates a situation where he, the Minister, will have an opinion as to whether there is misconduct whereas the council, not only having had the matter brought to their attention, and therefore having examined it, nevertheless refuse to hold an inquiry, despite the Minister’s opinion. I find this rather interesting. How is the Minister then going to have an opinion which is worth anything if the council disagrees with it? It is bad enough having a council which is entirely appointed by the Minister, but when the Minister cannot even trust the council to deal with matters of this sort, matters of internal discipline, I think things have come to a very sorry pass. That is why the hon. member for Albany, quite properly, asked who will do the alleging in relation to the inquiry under subsection (1). Who alleges that the man is inefficient, and how is the allegation made, and is the person against whom the allegation is made given any notice of it? Does the allegation have to be in writing or can it just be verbal? It is no good the Minister just sitting there. I hope he will give an answer to this. We want to know what sort of action the Minister contemplates and what events will arise which will cause him to use these extraordinary powers under subsection (2).

The hon. member for Durban (North) is being either very naïve, or ignorant or wilful. The hon. member has of course absolutely no experience, and will never have any either, of what happens in a Minister’s office. If it were possible for him to work in a Minister’s office for only a week, even if it were only as a messenger, as the hon. Minister of Transport is saying here, he would know that a regular stream of information reaches a Minister. Of course, a lot of this information is anonymous and this is thrown away, because the complaint of a coward who does not want to sign his name to that complaint must be ignored. But there are complaints from Members of Parliament, members of provincial councils and from leading members of the public and it is the Minister’s responsibility to examine those things well, and the Minister is learning all the time. The Minister has a Department with experienced officials who can investigate these matters for him. The Minister has officials of his Department and leading members of the public on those councils. It could happen that a responsible person—I am not talking about irresponsible persons now—brought in a complaint on the grounds of facts which the council did not have at its disposal at all. Then the Minister is shown the way of following it up. But the hon. member ought to know that when such complaints come to a Minister’s attention, he will at least have the sense of responsibility as a Minister, who can be called to account in terms of subsection 4 in this House, not to react unthinkingly to any nonsense or gossip and dismiss people from their posts. That is why the Minister can take steps if he is convinced that he has been furnished with the facts which were obviously not before the council or which were to the best of his knowledge not before the council, because the Minister has the Secretary of his own Department sitting on that council and he can form an objective opinion as to whether the facts were before that council, apart from the chairman of the council. If the Minister knows that such facts were not before the council, he can say to the council: Other facts have been submitted to me than were before you. The council can then be furnished with all the details and it can be said to the council that despite its former decision not to have an investigation made it must now have an investigation made. I can see nothing wrong with that. After all, a Minister will not level a new charge against a person every week.

It is all very well for the Minister to talk about getting information in his office which is not always available to others.

You are one of the persons who have already brought information to me.

I accept that, but let me put it to the Minister this way. If he has faith in this council which he will appoint, why not pass the information over to the council and let them take the necessary action? [Interjection.] The Minister of Indian Affairs can have his turn. I see him sitting here taking notes so that he will know what the answers are, but we are waiting for him. He has been sitting here swatting up things, but we are waiting for him. Sir, before I was so rudely interrupted, I was saying that the Minister gets information and I accept all that, but he should have faith in the council he is appointing.

Order! The hon. member should withdraw the word “rudely”.

I withdraw it. I say if the Minister had faith in the council which he himself will appoint, this could be referred to them with the request that they take the appropriate action.

That I have said.

But the Minister goes further, as the hon. member for Durban (North) pointed out: Under subsection (2) he takes the power that if he considers that the council has not taken the appropriate action, he can then direct the council or compel them to hold the inquiry. But unfortunately the hon. member for Durban (North) did not take this matter to its conclusion. Under subsection (3) the hon. the Minister need not even accept the recommendations of the council after their inquiry. He can direct them to do something else which he considers should be done, and he can do so, I would venture to suggest, without conducting an inquiry. Let me quote the whole subsection—

Even if the council does not want to take that action, even if the council does not deem it advisable or necessary to take that action, this Minister takes the power to compel the council to take that action, whether he has conducted his own inquiry or not. That is the point, Sir. The hon. the Minister says that the safeguard lies in subsection (4), which reads—

What more do you want?

Sir, what is the good of this? It is a fait accompli; the action has been taken. It is a deterrent on the Minister; that is all it is.

We can tackle the Minister.

As my hon. friend says we can tackle the Minister but we cannot help the unfortunate member of the staff against whom the action has been taken. As I said when I started, I cannot understand why the hon. the Minister appoints his council and then proceeds to pass a vote of no confidence in their ability to run the affairs of this university.

Clause put and agreed to (Official Opposition and Mrs. H. Suzman dissenting).

Clause 19:

This is another one of those clauses which merely corroborates my contention that what we are creating here is merely another Government Department. We find that in terms of this clause, a member of the staff of the university may, with his own consent—I am prepared to concede that point before hon. members on the other side start jumping up—be seconded either for a particular service or for a period of time to the service of any office, department or administration of the Government of the Republic, including the Railways Administration, a provincial administration and the Administration of the territory of South-West Africa or of any office, department or administration of any other Government. In effect this means that the staff of this university—and I guess that it refers to academic as well as administrative staff—can be seconded to other departments.

Sir, is this not in fact making these people merely civil servants and this merely another department of the Government service?

With his own consent. Did you not read that?

He emphasized it in the beginning.

I emphasized it. I accept that it can only be done with his own consent, but that does not alter the position at all. This merely strengthens my argument. During the Second Reading debate the hon. member for Cradock claimed that this clause gave the hon. the Minister the power, if he so wished, with the consent of the member of the staff concerned, to second him to another Government. The hon. member’s argument was that he can be seconded perhaps to Lesotho or Malawi or some other Government for the purpose of establishing a university. Sir, I do not see that in this clause, but let us hear what the hon. member has to say about this.

Sir, this is one of the factors which I deplore in this Bill. I accept and I welcome the principle of creating a university for the Xhosa people, but this is not doing it; this is merely creating another Government department and narrowing even further, by control, the education of the Bantu people.

The hon. member who has just sat down, displays a surprising inability to read. Here it is very clearly stated in lines 53 and 54 of the Afrikaans version, “departement of administrasie van ’n ander regering”. If the hon. member consults the English version, in case he does not understand Afrikaans, he will see that the following words appear there—

How would he have it stated more clearly that these officials may even be seconded to another government?

I concede that.

That hon. member imagines himself to have a monopoly of wisdom and knowledge.

Order! Hon. members should not become personal.

There have been cases of officials of the University of Fort Hare having been seconded to other governments in order to advise them, but the hon. member denies that.

No.

To give out that this clause is making public servants of the academic staff of Fort Hare is an absolutely foolish and ridiculous argument. In the first place this has to happen with the consent of the member of the staff himself. This clause has been inserted in the Bill for one reason only, and that is that if a lecturer at a university wants to do certain research at a Government Department, he is removed from the paysheet of Fort Hare and placed on the paysheet of that Department in which he is serving as he is rendering certain services to that Department. There is nothing sinister in this. The Minister does not have any power to take this man from his position and to place him in the Department of Bantu Administration and to tell him that henceforth he will be a public servant. The clause does not give him the power to do so This can only happen with the consent of the member of the staff concerned. What justification is there then to accuse us of making public servants of the academic staff of Fort Hare in terms of this clause? I think it is a foolish and ridiculous argument.

Clause put and agreed to.

Clause 20:

I would like to ask the hon. the Minister if he can explain the purpose in including paragraph (c) in subsection (1)? Par. (c) reads—

Sir, I do not see any reference to this particular clause in the Universities Act and I wonder whether there is any intention to lay down conditions which will allow the admission of students with an examination qualification lower than matriculation or matriculation exemption. I think we have a right to express concern in regard to this clause because already there is a high proportion of students at these Bantu university colleges who are not matriculated or matriculation exemption students, and I believe that if we wish to maintain the high standard of the university, this is one of the cardinal aspects that should be accepted. I would welcome the Minister’s explanation as to the reason for the inclusion of this paragraph and I should like to hear whether my interpretation of it is correct.

Sir, my objection to this clause stems from what it does not contain more than from what it contains.

You are very suspicious.

No, not suspicious. This clause does not include what practically every other university in the country does have included in its statutes and that is a conscience clause. In other words, in this clause which gives very wide powers indeed for exclusion of students, there is no proviso that a student may not be excluded on the ground of religious beliefs.

The conscience clause is out of date.

It is not out of date at all; it is very relevant. The hon. member should hear some of the remarks that I hear in this corner of the House and then he will know that it is very relevant indeed. The conscience clause in the statutes of the other universities reads as follows—

Sir, there has not been one word of explanation in this regard from the hon. the Minister in introducing this Bill. It was one of the points that I raised during the Second Reading debate, and I raise it now because it is relevant. This clause gives the council the right to limit the number of students, which is correct because quite obviously if the facilities are not available then the council must have the power, with the approval of the Minister, to limit the number of students. I understand that that may be necessary because there may not be the necessary facilities to accommodate the vast numbers of students who are going to apply for admission. I do not think that the University College of Fort Hare, which will now become a university, is in fact going to experience any such difficulty, because obviously there are not going to be sufficient matriculated students to stampede the university. But the conscience clause is omitted here. Although the Minister has the right to exclude students, in fact they can select from among those students who have applied for admission, those who shall follow a certain course. Apart from RAU and Potchefstroom, which have no conscience clause, all the other universities have it in some form or another. In the Statutes of the Orange Free State University it is there in its entirety. Even at Potchefstroom it applies to the students but not to the staff. I think Port Elizabeth retained the conscience clause.

Unfortunately, yes.

The hon. member is chafing under this. I wonder whether it has in any way impaired the development of Port Elizabeth? Has it been such a tremendously hindering factor in the development of the University of Port Elizabeth? I do not think so. Apart from RAU, this will be the only university, other than the University of Potchefstroom which did retain it in some form, which omits the conscience clause. I wonder if the hon. the Minister would tell us something about that aspect of this clause?

Sir, I really want an interpretation from the Minister. I refer to subsection (1) (b), the conditions under which a student may be registered. Paragraph (a) says that the student must have the matriculation certificate. Paragraph (b) reads “that unless he is a graduate of a university institution or has been admitted by a university institution to the status of a graduate”, he shall not be registered as a matriculated student of the university. What is a “university institution”? According to the definitions, a university institution means any university established by Act of Parliament. The Minister of National Education has come along with a new definition. He says a university means a university established by Act of Parliament but does not include any such university which in terms of the relevant Act of Parliament has been established to serve a Bantu national unit. Apparently he does not recognize that this is a university. So, when a graduate from Zululand comes along, they can say: “In terms of the definition of ‘university’ which the Minister of National Education is going to give us, the institution you attended is not a university.”

Mr. Chairman, I shall deal with the last question first. I am aware of the new definition of the Minister of National Education which applies to the other universities. As a matter of fact, the need for that definition really arose, in a way, as a result of this Bill. According to my information, the expression contained in clause 20, which is defined in clause 1, applies to all institutions which are universities. As the hon. member should remember, it may even happen that a non-White is allowed to take a certain degree at a white university. If he then wants to return to Fort Hare, it should be possible for him.

I think the hon. member for Houghton, who spoke about the conscience clause, knows the answer to this question. She is quite knowledgeable enough to know the answer to this question. She knows that in this country we already have other universities for the white community which do not have the conscience clause.

Why not?

That is of no consequence. There are universities which do not have it. Neither did these five colleges have it all these years. I do not think that anyone who values the freedom of the individual and the complete freedom of a university so highly as the hon. member for Houghton does, should object if a conscience clause is not included.

It is a limitation on prejudice, and you know it.

No. The hon. member wants a conscience clause to be inserted so that it may be laid down what kind of people cannot be disregarded. Nothing is mentioned here in that regard. It is in fact being left to the consciences of the councils and the Minister to do what is right.

The hon. member for Berea also asked me a question. Unfortunately I must admit that I could not follow his question very well. I would be glad if he would repeat his question.

†The hon. member for Berea placed a certain interpretation on paragraph (c). I would be glad if he could repeat his interpretation very concisely.

Mr. Chairman, I asked whether paragraph (c) was intended to provide for conditions under which persons with exemption qualifications lower than matriculation or matriculation exemption could be accepted into the university for diploma courses.

Mr. Chairman, the paragraph is not intended to provide for that. It may be that, in the case of certain courses, a certain grouping of matriculation subjects could be found to be very necessary. In paragraph (a), for instance, the council is empowered to require a certain percentage pass at matriculation level. I may add that we do, of course, allow holders of the senior certificate to attend the university colleges and also the universities. That is to say, persons who passed Std. X without obtaining a matriculation exemption, may also attend these universities. But that is nothing new in South Africa. At Stellenbosch there are at present almost 400 such students taking certain diploma courses. There are such students at the university colleges and I hope that we shall also have them at the universities.

Mr. Chairman, I am surprised at the hon. the Minister for advancing such a childish argument. Freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to shout “fire” in a crowded cinema. However much I might protest that I am in favour of freedom of speech, I am not in favour of people being allowed complete licence, and he knows that. Equally, Sir, autonomy of a university does not mean the freedom to exclude people on the grounds of religious belief, or the freedom to practice discrimination on the grounds of prejudice of any kind. The conscience clause applies to every other university, barring one, and in part to another, which is a university specifically devoted to religious teaching, namely Potchefstroom. But even at Potchefstroom this clause applies to students, although not to staff. The conscience clause applies to every other university, with the exception of R.A.U. The universities willingly accepted that restriction on their autonomy. The hon. the Minister should know that, and he does know it. I do not for one moment accept this sort of garbled argument which tries to turn the onus back on me to prove that I am being illiberal or that I am removing autonomy from the universities when I say that this clause is objectionable to me, not so much for what it contains, but for what it omits. For that reason I am going to vote against this clause.

Mr. Chairman, there was no real reason for the hon. the Minister to be so sensitive in his reply to the hon. member for Berea about the question of the admission of students who have not matriculated. There is no real provision in this Bill for the admission of such students, but I am very glad to hear that the Minister is going to admit such students.

We have always done so.

We know that perfectly well. We accept the fact that this has always been done. But this Bill is supposed to be bringing about a change in the status of Fort Hare. The university college is being upgraded. But we welcome the fact that this will now be done administratively, although there is no provision for it in the Bill. I was going to ask the hon. the Minister this very question. The Bill makes provision for the registration of a person as a matriculated student. I was going to ask that very question, and I welcome his reply, because we need more educated people amongst the Bantu.

People who can read.

Yes, I sincerely hope that they can read before they go to this university. I sincerely hope that they have been sufficiently educated to be able to read when they get there.

People come to Parliament and they cannot even read.

Yes, we know all about that.

There is another aspect which has not been touched upon during the discussion of this clause. In terms of subsection (4), the council may, after consultation with the senate and with the prior approval of the Minister limit the number of persons who may be permitted to register for any course. I do not really follow the reason for such a provision in a Bill of this nature. I know that if, for example, there is accommodation for only 100 students, the number of students who will be able to register will be limited to a hundred. That is obvious. But is there not more to this provision than just the question of accommodation? I wonder whether this will not allow channelling to take place. Is the Minister not giving the council the power to channel the development of these people along certain lines by giving the council the power to limit the number of persons who may be permitted to register for any one course? I shall be glad to hear from the hon. the Minister whether this is intended to channel the development of these people along particular lines.

There is another question I should like to ask. This subsection goes on to state that the senate may select from among those persons qualified to proceed to such course the persons who shall be permitted to register therefor. I wonder if the hon. the Minister could tell us on what terms and conditions such a selection will be made?

Mr. Chairman, I want to begin by sympathizing with that hon. member, because obviously he knows absolutely nothing about the way in which a university functions; neither from hearsay nor from direct experience. A provision of this kind is applied at every university in our country. There are facilities which must be used and one cannot allow twice as many students in a science laboratory as there are retorts available that is to say, if the hon. member knows what a retort is.

I agree with that.

One cannot admit more medical students than the clinical facilities can cope with. More examples of this kind are to be found. If the number of students has to be limited, it is left to the council of the university to select those that may be admitted. The council should be able to prescribe its requirements. In a case where the council receives more applications for admission than the facilities permit, they may decide to make the criterion for selection 70 per cent at matriculation exemption, or whatever other requirements they may lay down. This is only in order to select where facilities are limited. I think the hon. member did a great deal of harm to the development of the Bantu by insinuating that we are devising sinister schemes and that we are planning the “channeling” of Bantu students. We have no intention whatsoever of planning sinister channelings of this nature.

Mr. Chairman, I do not think the hon. the Minister has clearly answered the hon. member for Houghton on the question of the conscience clause and the reason for omitting it.

It is not in the Bill.

That is right.

It should be put in.

Order! I cannot allow that discussion under clause 20.

But, Sir, it has to do with the selection of students.

Where does such a provision appear in the Bill?

The hon. member for Houghton explained why she wants to raise it under this clause. Under what clause can we then bring it up?

I do not know. It is not in clause 20.

On a point of order. Sir, para. (c) says:

Under the wide wording of that clause it is surely possible to mention what conditions may be laid down by the council and to mention what conditions we consider should be laid down by the council.

Under these circumstances, particularly in dealing with a group of people whose religious thoughts are hardly the same as those …

Order! I am sorry, I cannot allow this discussion to continue.

I am sorry, Sir, but I thought the hon. member for Houghton had explained …

Order! The hon. member for Houghton raised a point of order that this can be included under paragraph (c), but I am afraid I have to rule that out of order.

Mr. Chairman may I raise another point of order under subsection (4)? Subsection (4) reads as follows:

Again there should be some limiting factor. I know that this is an accommodation clause primarily.

Order! I allowed the hon. member to discuss it earlier on, but it is not under consideration in clause 20.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, would an amendment or a proviso to that effect be competent to this clause? If the answer to that is yes, I submit that this discussion can then take place.

The answer is no.

But, Mr. Chairman, is it your ruling that we may not move an amendment to provide a proviso to the effect that no discrimination on religious grounds should take place?

I think if I allow that, there will be an entirely new principle contained in the Bill. It cannot be done by moving an amendment at this stage.

The principle is turning it into a university. This is part of the usual set-up of the universities in this country. It is not something new, most of the university bills contain such a clause.

I have given my ruling and hon. members should abide by it.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot say that I am wholly satisfied with the reply by the hon. the Minister. Let me say that I accept the question of lack of facilities and accommodation. I have pointed that out when I first spoke to the hon. the Minister. What I deplore is, firstly, the attitude of the hon. the Minister and, secondly, that he says that I have made certain insinuations. I have made no insinuations at all. I have only asked him an outright question as to whether this is to channel the development of the Bantu people. I did not insinuate, as the hon. the Minister now insinuates, that the development would be channelled to the detriment of the Bantu people.

I note your explanation.

You note my explanation. I hope you accept my bona fides too. With regard to this clause, accepting the hon. the Minister’s explanation on that the limitation will be only on grounds of lack of accommodation in one way or another, is this subsection then necessary, because surely it is something which follows naturally from the nature of the university that if they do not have the accommodation they cannot accept the students? Therefore, what is the necessity for this clause?

Mr. Chairman, if one looks at clause 20 as a whole, one finds that it is merely a question of who shall or who shall not attend this university as a student. This clause is not wide enough. It allows too many loopholes. If we look at clause 20 (1) we will see that the hon. the Minister has there put in a clause ensuring that he does not have to discriminate against the Whites. They are already discriminated against. That he felt he should do, but we will discuss that later. The whole of clause 20 deals with the question of who shall attend the University of Fort Hare, which students may be admitted, but it does not say which students may not be admitted. Further, it gives him wide powers—too wide. It gives the hon. the Minister power to select on all sorts of grounds. He can even select students by the colour of their hair and if they have lost their front teeth. Some are bound to try to knock out their front teeth; some sharpen them. The hon. the Minister can have all those privileges which he wants in clause 20, but we ask that there is one particular test which he should not use. That is religious belief.

Order! I have given my ruling on the conscience clause and the hon. member is coming back to the aspect of religion.

On a point of order, Sir, the hon. member said that he is not satisfied with this clause because it could bring discrimination on religious grounds. I do submit that that is in order.

The hon. member may proceed.

This is not a principle; this is concerned with this clause. This is the clause stating who may attend the university and under certain conditions, who may be excluded. We do not want the hon. the Minister to have too wide a range, so we want a conscience clause to be inserted. That will then stop the hon. the Minister or whoever does the selecting, from using religion as an objection. These people are mostly irreligious and have no religion at all, but they do have their traditions and their customs.

What are you worrying about?

I am worrying about these people being discriminated against if they are not Christians or something of that nature. Many of them are Moslems. I do not think the hon. the Minister or anybody else should have the right to exclude a student from obtaining education. After all, he has only one place to go to. Why then should he be excluded only because he has no religion?

Mr. Chairman, would you consider this proviso in the light of what the hon. member for Durban (Central) has just said? In any event, I move as an amendment—

I am unable to accept the amendment as it seeks to introduce a new principle not contemplated by the Bill as read a second time.

Clause, as printed, put and the Committee divided:

Ayes—90: Bodenstein, P.; Botha, H. J.; Botha, M. C.; Botha, M. W.; Botha, S. P.; Carr, D. M.; Coetzee, B.; Coetzee, J. A.; Cruywagen, W. A.; De Jager, P. R.; De Wet, I. M.; Du Plessis, A. H.; Du Plessis, H. R. H.; Engelbrecht, J. J.; Erasmus, A. S. D.; Erasmus, J. J. P.; Frank, S.; Froneman, G. F. van L.; Greyling, J. C.; Grobler, M. S. F.; Havemann, W. W. B.; Hayward, S. A. S.; Henning, J. M.; Herman, F.; Hertzog, A.; Janson, T. N. H.; Jurgens, J. C.; Keyter, H. C. A.; Koornhof, P. G. J.; Kruger, J. T.; Langley, T.; Le Roux, F. J.; Le Roux, J. P. C.; Lewis, H. M.; Malan, G. F.; Malan, J. J.; Malan, W. C.; Marais, J. A.; Maree, G. de K.; McLachlan, R.; Meyer, P. H.; Morrison, G. de v.; Mulder, C. P.; Muller, S. L.; Otto, J. C.; Pansegrouw, J. S.; Pelser. P. C.; Pienaar, B.; Pieterse, R. J. J.; Potgieter, J. E.; Rall, J. W.; Rall, M. J.; Raubenheimer, A. J.; Raubenheimer, A. L.; Reinecke, C. J.; Revneke, J. P. A.; Roux, P. C.; Sadie, N. C. van R.; Schlebusch, J. A.; Schoeman. B. J.; Schoeman, H.; Schoeman, J. C. B.; Smit, H. H.; Smith, J. D.; Swiegers, J. G.; Torlage, P. H.; Treurnicht, N. F.; Van den Berg, M. J.; Van der Merwe, C. V.; Van der Merwe, H. D. K.; Van der Merwe, W. L.; Van Niekerk, M. C.; Van Rensburg, M. C. G. J.; Van Staden, J. W.; Van Tonder, J. A.; Van Zyl, J. J. B.; Venter, M. J. de la R.; Viljoen, M.; Viljoen, P. J. van B.; Volker, V. A.; Vorster, B. J.; Vorster, L. P. J.; Vosloo, A. H.; Vosloo, W. L.; Waring, F. W.; Wentzel, J. J.

Tellers: G. P. C. Bezuidenhout, G. P. van den Berg, P. S. van der Merwe and W. L. D. M. Venter.

Noes—31: Basson, J. A. L.; Basson, J. D. du P.; Bennett, C.; Eden, G. S.; Emdin, S.; Fisher, E. L.; Graaff, De V.; Higgerty, J. W.; Jacobs, G. F.; Kingwill, W. G.; Malan, E. G.; Marais, D. J.; Mitchell, D. E.; Mitchell, M. L.; Moolman, J. H.; Moore, P. A.; Oldfield, G. N.; Radford, A.; Raw, W. V.; Smith, W. J. B.; Streicher, D. M.; Suzman, H.; Taylor, C. D.; Thompson, J. O. N.; Timoney, H. M.; Wainwright, C. J. S.; Webber, W. T.; Winchester, L. E. D.; Wood, L. F.

Tellers: H. J. Bronkhorst and A. Hopewell.

Clause, as printed, accordingly agreed to.

Clause 21:

Mr. Chairman, during the Second Reading debate I mentioned that I had strong objections to the fact that the University of Fort Hare would to all extents and purposes be a closed university. In other words, the inclusion of clause 21 means that the Minister does not even have the right to admit any white students at all who apply to become students at the University of Fort Hare. The following section, which limits the university to the Xhosa group, does allow the hon. the Minister to make exceptions. He may admit Africans from other ethnic groups and Coloured and Indian students to the University of Fort Hare. But here we have, for whites, a complete and absolute prohibition. In the same way as I was against the closing of the open universities (where non-white students may still be admitted to certain courses with the permission of the Minister), I am also against the provision making the University of Fort Hare into a closed university. I think it will do the students of different races a world of good to get to know and understand each other during their university years. It would do white students a great deal of good to know that there are non-white students Xhosa students …

Will you send your daughter over there?

Certainly, if she wants to go, I shall have no objections whatsoever. If she does not want to go there, she can always say no. This is the same answer I have given to the ridiculous question whether I want my daughter to marry an African. Nobody is going to force any white child to go to the University of Fort Hare or to the University of Zululand and nobody would force my daughter to go there. If she wants to go there, I shall give her the option of going. Does that answer the hon. member’s question? I hope it does. I am not asking that this should be made compulsory. I am asking that this should be allowed. It should be the free choice of students who wish to attend a non-White university. There are many reasons why they may wish to do so. They may wish to acquire the languages, which they would certainly acquire in a far better way than learning the language as a foreign language at a white university. They might be anthropologists or sociologists who wish to make a special study of African students at those universities, and they may just decide that they want to go to those universities for the reasons I have mentioned, and that is that they would like to get to know their fellow South African non-white students rather better than they are able to do under present conditions. For those very simple reasons I am going to oppose this clause. I do not believe that a new university like this should have an adamant prohibition against the admission of white students.

Clause 21 put and a division demanded.

Fewer than four members (viz. Dr. A. Radford and Mrs. Suzman) having supported the demand for a division, clause 21 declared agreed to.

Clause 22:

Mr. Chairman, I move the following amendment—

The clause as it now stands reads as follows—

There are three points I wish to raise concerning the clause. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (3) of section 2, about which we had quite a debate two days ago, the council may approve the admission of somebody who is not a Xhosa, or not a member of the Xhosa national unit as referred to in that subsection, but, of course, subject to the provisions of section 21 which has just been agreed to by this Committee. The second part of the clause says the council may admit such a student “if the council is of the opinion that the admission of such person is justified.” I wonder what the Minister means by this phrase, what does he mean by the words, “If the council is of the opinion that the admission of such person is justified.” The third section of this clause is the proviso, namely—“Provided that the first admission of any such person shall be subject to the approval of the Minister.” My amendment seeks the deletion of the proviso. I want to ask the Minister this question outright: has he got nothing better to do than to sit down and decide whether or not to admit a Bantu student? First of all, the Minister must decide whether or not he is a member of the Xhosa national unit, referred to in subsection (3) of section 2, and then he has to decide whether or not he will allow that Bantu to take the course at the university. Why does the Minister want to stick his finger into this pie? Why must he be the one who shall determine whether or not some person who is not a member of the Xhosa national unit shall be admitted to Fort Hare?

I want to discuss further with the hon. the Minister the question of who will constitute persons who belong to the Xhosa national unit. I mentioned half-a-dozen and more surnames to the Minister yesterday, and the persons bearing those names can all be Xhosa-speaking but not all those surnames would belong to persons belonging to the Xhosa national unit. In terms of another Bill, this is going to be a complete and utter mockery. Persons will assume that a person belongs to the Xhosa national unit merely by his association with people who belong to that group. How is the Minister going to decide, how is it going to be applied in practice? As I said earlier on, these two sections are the most ridiculous sections in this whole Bill. The other aspect has to do with the words “if the council is of the opinion that the admission of such person is justified” in the clause. On what ground is the council going to decide whether it is justified or not? This is something else I should like a reply on from the hon. the Minister.

The most important thing of all, however, is this. We on this side of the House have never regarded education as a privilege, we have rather considered it as a right of all people. This is not merely the adornment of democracy, this is democracy, this is freedom. Everybody should have the right to education to the maximum degree. These universities are the doorway through which these people can pass to become useful citizens in South Africa, where they can make a contribution to the running of our country rather than be a drag on the development of our country.

As I said before, I deplore the lack of choice which the Bantu pople have in their lower education, where it is purely secular, because they can only go to schools, with the exception of three that I have mentioned, which are controlled by the Minister and his department. Here in this Bill we are not only controlling their university education, limiting them to the universities which will be controlled by the Minister and his department, but we are limiting them to only one of five institutions, because certain Bills concerning other universities are before this House, and they have similar provisions. I believe that the Minister concerned in each case can allow the admission of Bantu people to those universities. In effect what we are doing here is this. We are giving a Minister the right, the power, to say to a Xhosa, to a Zulu, to a Pedi, and in other instances, to the Coloured and the Indian, that he shall only go to one university unless he first obtains the permission of the Minister to go to another one. I submit this is completely and utterly unnecessary. I do not know why the Minister wants to involve himself with this matter of deciding which university will be attended by whom.

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry, but the amendment moved by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) is not acceptable to me. I am not prepared to delete the proviso. As hon. members know, clause 22 is there to provide for the admission to a university of someone who, strictly speaking, does not belong to that university by virtue of his ethnic group. The council is expected to arrange such matters, provided that the first admission is subject to the approval of the Minister. This is the proviso. There is a reason for this proviso. This matter is left to the council, which must see whether the physical facilities are available, and so forth. As regards the first admission of such a person, the purpose of the provision is to ensure a certain measure of supervision so that people will not be admitted unnecessarily, people who actually belong with another university by virtue of their ethnic group. There may be other reasons why a person cannot be admitted to a certain university, reasons on which the Minister and the Department may be better informed than the university itself, and for that reason it is right that the Minister should have this say in respect of the first application. The hon. member asked on what grounds decisions were going to be taken. This is for the council to decide. The council will approach the matter in a practical way. Let me give the hon. member one practical example. An agricultural faculty is now being initiated at Fort Hare; attempts are being made to establish such a faculty. None of the other Bantu universities has an agricultural faculty yet. Agricultural faculties may still be established at those universities as well. If a Tswana student is very keen to take a course in agriculture at a university, the council will most definitely decide that admission to that university is justified in his case, because he cannot go to Turfloop to take a course in agriculture. The council may therefore decide to admit him if accommodation is available for him. When application is made for the first time the Minister may permit the student to take the course and in subsequent years his admission will only be subject to the approval of the council. This is one example, and there may be others. There may be another university which is the only institution which has a faculty of law. The institution at Turfloop is the only one where Bantu can be trained as pharmacists. If a Xhosa man or a Xhosa woman wants to study pharmacy, the course has to be taken at Turfloop, and such a student will definitely be admitted to that university. This is the reason for this provision and these are the grounds on which the council will decide.

Mr. Chairman. I see the hon. the Minister’s point. I take it that Coloured or Indians can also be admitted?

I have already allowed a Coloured to Fort Hare, last year or the year before. I considered it was necessary and he was allowed there.

Yes, I read it correctly. I understand the Minister’s case in this. My point is this. Why should the Minister trouble himself about it at all? He nominates the council. Surely he can leave it to them. He knows the people on the council, and if the council is going to make any change whatsoever in its policy, the obvious thing to do is to get in touch with the Minister or members of his department and say, “We are considering these cases,” Surely it is obvious. He nominates the whole council, why then should he have this proviso? That is what I cannot understand.

Mr. Chairman, I am afraid the hon. the Minister rather argued against himself when he replied to my representations on this matter. He quoted the case of Fort Hare where they are busy with a faculty of agriculture. I want to congratulate him on this step. I am extremely pleased to hear it. He mentioned a Tswana might want to attend that faculty. My point is, why must the Minister give permission for that Tswana to go there? I want to give him another example. In time, I hope, Turfloop and Ingoya will also have faculties of agriculture, and we will then have faculties of agriculture at all three universities. A Tswana might want to take a degree in agriculture, but why must he be limited to Turfloop? If he feels that the training at Fort Hare is better than that of Turfloop, surely he should be permitted to apply for admission to Fort Hare?

What about facilities?

Of course, always subject to facilities being available. What nonsense are we getting from this hon. member?

Business interrupted to report progress.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.

Mr. Speaker, as Chairman of the Select Committee on the Orange River Development Project Bill, I move, as an unopposed motion—

Agreed to.

I move the motion as printed in my name—

Mr. Speaker, most of us are aware of the great wealth of flora and fauna in our country, but generally speaking, I do not think we have enough knowledge to estimate and appreciate at its true value our exceptional heritage of flora and fauna. With this motion I therefore hope to gain not only the support of the Government but also to focus the attention of the public outside on this particular wealth and how it should be treated and how we can expand our knowledge of it.

The motion refers specifically to the conservation, publicizing and study of our rich botanical heritage. Not only is a request being made for increased financial support, as further indicated in the motion, but the request reads that this must be done in a particular manner, and this is important as far as this motion is concerned. It asks for the development of a particular organization, the National Botanic Gardens with its headquarters at Kirstenbosch, and here I want to state at once that this motion does not concern Kirstenbosch as such. Kirstenbosch is the headquarters of this State-aided institution, and Kirstenbosch is also a place which is known not only in South Africa but throughout the world. That is why it is of particular significance that the name Kirstenbosch should be mentioned here. In addition, what is involved here is not only nature conservation and plant conservation in general; what is involved is how the task has to be carried in order to obtain the best results in the conservation of our flora, and even the fauna. A great deal is being done for nature conservation and in particular for the conservation of our flora, and is in fact being done to such an extent that we may ask whether, in certain fields, it does not verge on the exaggerated a little. That is why it is important that we should put this entire matter in its correct perspective and see what the best way of tackling this major task is.

I therefore deem it necessary to make it very clear here that the National Botanic Gardens of South Africa is performing its task in an exceptional way. This exceptional way in which it is fulfilling its task is summarized very well by the Director, Prof. Rycroft, in an edition of Lantern of September, 1963, in which he writes as follows—

Mr. Speaker, that is why I am referring specifically, in the first place, to this particular organization and the task which it is fulfilling in this direction. Here we have an undertaking which is supported by the State, but which is not only receiving support from the State; it is also being supported by an organization known as the Botanic Association of South Africa, of which there are 5,000 members. In my opinion we therefore have an ideal constitution here. People do not come forward and say that the State must do this, that or the other; people come forward and say: “We are doing this and that is what we want to promote, and we would like the assistance of the State and public bodies for this particular task.” This is in my opinion a very sound basis on which to approach our problems, namely that we draw as many people as possible into it and arouse their interest.

The Botanic Gardens which have been established and are to be established by the National Botanic Gardens of South Africa envisage the collection of plants from surrounding areas and even areas further afield in order to plant them, not only to protect and conserve them where necessary, but in particular to display them to the public by means of attractive planting and display. In this way knowledge and a greater appreciation of our botanical heritage is cultivated, and this stimulates the conservation thereof. The city dweller, who so often sits hemmed in in a concrete jungle, but also the town dweller and the country dweller become acquainted in this way with our flora in a more personal way, and not in the superficial way which we often find when we only have nature reserves.

One educational aspect of the National Botanic Gardens must be emphasized, namely the inculcation of the importance of the protection of our indigenous flora everywhere, and to assist in the establishment and maintenance of regional gardens, where local inhabitants can become personally acquainted with the plants of their region and where they can also learn how to cultivate them and obtain expert advice in this regard. The concern is exclusively with plants here and not with animals. By means of close liaison with the Botanic Association of South Africa the distribution of seed is undertaken and facilitated and, information and instruction in regard to the cultivation of flowers and plants is supplied, which leads to greater acquaintance with and a cultivation of a love for what is our own. By concentrating the planting of this flora in specific areas the plants in the Gardens are accessible to the public and are a showcase for the tourist, the city dweller and other visitors. There is consequently a very clear distinction between a botanical garden and a nature reserve, and I think it is important that I should point out that difference. It is also important that I point which bodies in this country are concerning themselves with the conservation of our flora and our wild life. If all the bodies and individuals who are to lesser or greater degree active in regard to nature conservation were listed, it would indeed be an impressive list, and if we look at the surface area involved, then it is so impressive that one feels that possibly too much is being done in the direction of nature conservation.

I want to sum up very briefly what is in fact being done for nature conservation in this country. The bodies concerned in this are in the first instance the National Parks Board. The National Parks Board has six parks in the Cape. The largest of these is the Gemsbok National Park with a surface area of 1,119,000 morgen. In the Transvaal there is the well-known Kruger National Park with a surface area of more than two million morgen, where particular attention is given to flora and fauna. In the Orange Free State there is the Golden Gate National Park, but in Natal the parks are not controlled by the National Parks Board. In addition we have the Department of Forestry which concerns itself with this particular task. The Department controls mountain catchment areas with a total surface area of 1.2 million morgen, and the Department exercises control over 63 nature reserves with a surface area of 16,000 morgen. Then, too, we have the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. The National Botanic Gardens falls under the Department of Agricultural Technical Services as a result of an Act which was passed by this Parliament in 1966, and since 1967 the National Botanic Gardens has fallen under the control of this Department. There are 17 other State-aided institutions which fall under other Departments. Under the direct control of this Department there is also the Botanical Research Institute which includes, inter alia, the Pretoria National Botanic Gardens. These National Botanic Gardens in Pretoria, which are controlled by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, differ widely from the National Botanic Gardens of South Africa which is a State-aided institution. In Pretoria the idea is that plant material or plants, which have been collected from all over the country, are cultivated there for research purposes. These National Botanic Gardens are in reality therefore what is called a “living herbarium”. It is very difficult to undertake research with dry material and with what is available in ordinary herbariums. That is why these gardens have been laid out in Pretoria for our scientists, and there are more than 4,000 different kinds of indigenous plants there, where they are available for research purposes.

The next bodies are the Provincial Administrations. In Natal the Natal Parks, Game and Fish Preservation Board controls 26 parks and reserves. Unfortunately I was unable to obtain information in regard to the surface area but it must be considerable. In South-West Africa there are nine parks, game reserves and reserves, of which the Etosha pan is by far the largest and comprises 4.7 million morgen. In the Transvaal the province, besides what the National Parks Board has there, has 17 nature reserves with a surface area of 60,000 morgen, but there are 387 private nature reserves with a surface area of more than one million morgen. To place the extent of nature conservation in its correct perspective, I just want to mention that one tenth of the Transvaal’s surface area of 109,600 square miles, has been set aside for nature conservation. I am mentioning these figures because it is important that we should take cognizance of what has already been done, and it may then be asked why more should be done. That is why I emphasize that more should be done in a particular way, and for this purpose large surface areas are not required.

Apart from the bodies which I have already mentioned, we still have the municipalities with natural gardens or reserves, and in the Cape the Divisional Council has six nature reserves. In addition we have institutes for biology or nature conservation at our universities, and there is a long list of bodies which are concerning themselves with this very important task. However, it is necessary that the entire matter should be seen in its correct perspective, and that the love which the nation is displaying for our natural heritage should be channelized, guided and placed on a sound basis. For this knowledge and a scientific basis is necessary. I make so bold as to say that the National Botanic Gardens of South Africa, as a result of the premises which I have already mentioned, is the most suitable institution and one which deserves the support of the Government, individuals and public bodies. We have a great deal to say about the conservation of our soil, but in my opinion, our greatest ally in the conservation of our soil is our vegetation; that which covers our soil. This is the cardinal point. If we treat our vegetation with loving care, the task of conserving the soil has presented itself automatically. Apart from Kirstenbosch the National Botanic Gardens control other establishments in the Cape, and I should like to bring the extent of their activities to your attention. There is the Karoo Garden at Worcester, and a few other less well-known places, to which I shall return if time allows. What is important however is that the National Botanic Gardens is now spreading its wings and making the rest of the country aware that our vegetation ought to be conserved. The Kirstenbosch gardens have been in existence since 1913, and it is only now that we have gone so far as to establish gardens in other provinces.

One of the first places where efforts are being made to do something constructive in this regard is the Free State. For the Drakensberg there is the Eastern Free State Botanic Gardens at Harrismith which were recently established, and also the Orange Free State Botanic Gardens at Bloemfontein. Perhaps you will now ask why there are two gardens. I want to mention to you that at Harrismith the idea is that vegetation which grows above 5,000 above sea level and is to be found in the Drakensberg area will be collected there so that the public can see it, whereas in Bloemfontein the vegetation which is more peculiar to the Free State will be collected. Then there is also the possibility of the establishment of a garden at Nelspruit in the Eastern Lowveld, and what inspires me to-day in particular is to fulfil the task of pleading for your support. I have a love for the vegetation of the Lowveld. Because I am a person who grew up there and who appreciates it, I would very much like my fellowmen to share in this love and the particular value which these plants have for us. In addition the takeover of the botanic gardens in Pietermaritzburg has been envisaged, in which case the existing controlling organization would transfer it to the central organization in order to try to obtain better results in this way. We therefore have a nicely balanced, although perhaps not perfect distribution. I hope that the assistance which we will receive will be of such a nature that we will at least be able to develop these gardens which exist and those which are being envisaged to such an extent that in the other provinces, apart from the gardens which will still be developed in the Cape, these gardens will serve as a stimulus for the public and will carry their appreciation for our vegetation to even greater heights.

I also want to make particular mention of the assistance which this association of local bodies have received. I want to emphasize that we are not only asking for assistance from the State, but for contributions from other bodies and individuals as well. I went into this matter and I want to mention specifically here that the contributions from Harrismith and Nelspruit were more than 70 cents per inhabitant. In Bloemfontein the contribution was 10 cents per inhabitant. I was, however, very disappointed to discover that Capetonians and the Municipality of Cape Town only contributes 1 cent per inhabitant. I should like to place even further emphasis on this matter, because it is to my mind a deplorable state of affairs that people who are so well provided with natural beauty and a wealth of flowers do so little and simply take it for granted. In one of the publications on Kirstenbosch it is stated that “The people of Cape Town are well known for the complacency”. I found this particularly striking and I do not want to criticize people unnecessarily, but I feel that great emphasis must be placed on this matter.

I want to go further and express my gratitude to the State for the assistance which has been granted. During the past financial year R184,000 has been spent on Kirstenbosch, of which R119,000 was contributed by the State. This contribution is particularly important, because it was possible by that means to complete a dam at Kirstenbosch holding 11 million gallons of water. Every year during the dry summer months the shortage of water made it very difficult to keep up the appearance of the cultivated area of Kirstenbosch. However, with the assistance of the State it has been possible to build that fine dam there, and this will be of great value in the future. According to estimates, approximately 400,000 people visit Kirstenbosch every year, and it is therefore very important that these people are placed in a position where they can fulfil this task in such a way that visitors will be able to observe with pleasure, joy and satisfaction what is being done there. In this country, in spite of what I have just said, our rich botanical heritage often failed to enjoy the attention it ought to have enjoyed. Long before our cultivators and the general public began to estimate the true value of our flora, botanists from England, Germany, Holland, Sweden, Australia and probably other countries as well undertook the task of improving the plants. South Africa had to import gladioli which were sent overseas from this country and improved there. Flowers such as barberton daisies, geraniums, pelargoniums and nemesias were taken abroad from this country, improved there, and brought back. Many of us were not even aware that they were our own flowers. In America and New Zealand our proteas, pin-cushions and heath are being commercially cultivated. Our heath has in fact been popular with gardeners in England for more than 100 years. I was struck recently to learn that a botanist, on a visit to Moscow, saw fine displays of geraniums along the avenues. The layman would not have known this, but those geraniums had their origin in South Africa. For such a person who had the knowledge it was in fact extraordinary to see the plants from his own country in these particular circumstances. To sum up I want to point out that in South Africa there are probably between 16,000 and 20,000 species of plants. There are probably more in the Cape Peninsula, where, according to estimate, there are 2,600 species of plants, than in the entire British Isles where it is estimated that there are approximately 2,000 species of plants. If we take the heather family for example we see that, according to estimates, there are approximately 800 different species in the entire world, and that 602 species of heather are to be found in the South-Western Cape. The same applies to a certain extent to irises, proteas and lilies. It is therefore a fact that we are dealing with something exceptional here which we are not always aware of. It is very necessary that attention be given to this matter and that we receive the necessary support, not only from the authorities, but also from other bodies.

I just want to mention briefly that Kirstenbosch, which is at the moment and will probably remain the most important gardens, was established in 1913 when Professor Pearson, who also came from abroad, performed this task with great enthusiasm and showed the people what an exceptional opportunity existed here of displaying our flora there. Since then the Karoo Botanic Garden at Worcester, the Harold Porter Botanic Gardens at Betty’s Bay, the Drakensberg and Eastern Free State Botanic Gardens at Harrismith, the Orange Free State Botanic Gardens at Bloemfontein and the envisaged gardens at Nelspruit were established. In addition there are other smaller gardens which, owing to lack of money, could not be developed. I want to conclude by giving a short historic survey of Kirstenbosch. Kirstenbosch is also of historic value. There is a wild almond lane which the Company planted there in 1660 to serve as the boundary of their settlement and also to keep the Hottentots, who were stealing their cattle, out. This lane has been declared an historic monument. During the course of years various people stayed at Kirstenbosch, inter alia, a certain Kirsten, an official of the Company after whom the gardens are presumably named. Subsequently a certain Dirk Eksteen purchased the property. In 1895 the property was bought by Cecil John Rhodes as part of his idea to conserve the eastern slopes of Table Mountain and Devil’s Peak as a national park for the nation of South Africa. Through the serious efforts of Professor Pearson these beautiful and exceptional gardens were established. In 1922 320 morgen of land from the Department of Forests was added, and at the moment the surface area of Kirstenbosch covers 566 morgen and extends from a height of 300 ft. to 3,500 ft. above sea level to the top of Table Mountain. Of this there are only 30 morgen to-day which are being intensely cultivated where the public can view the planted flora. Here 4,000 species of South African plants have already been planted.

I want to conclude by referring to the envisaged gardens at Nelspruit, and I want to address an invitation to all who visit Nelspruit and the Eastern Lowveld to pay a visit there in the future. When I think of our beautiful trees and of our flowers there which have not yet come to the attention of our public, I should like to refer to the beautiful lesser varieties, i.e. thunder trees, kiaat trees, marula trees, African wattle, the water berry, the sand apple and the Transvaal ebony which can be planted there. In particular I should also like to mention the impala lily. Which hon. members have ever seen an impala lily?

I have.

I am pleased that a few hon. members are so enthusiastic about it that they are even putting up their hands. With these words I want to conclude and I hope that we will receive support from one and all.

Mr. Speaker, I think that an appeal such as we have just heard from the hon. member who has just sat down is never likely to fall on deaf ears on this side of the House. With a matter of this kind I think the hon. member and those who think like him can rely upon our support. The hon. member has given an exposition in regard to Kirstenbosch and the approach of that institution and of the institutions of a similar nature which it is instituting in other provinces. He also painted some of the facets of the beauty and the value of our various botanical species we have in this country. I want to say at once that we are supporting the hon. member. I would have liked his motion to have been drawn on a wider scale and not narrowed down so much, because it limits us to a certain extent in what we may discuss here to-day.

I want to take a different line to that which the hon. member has covered fairly adequately in the speech he has just made. I want to come to the value of this institution, Kirstenbosch, and its branch institutions which it is establishing elsewhere and the part those institutions can play from a scientific point of view, not only in regard to agriculture, but also in regard to many other aspects. We must remember that perhaps part of our difficulty and that of the hon. member in going to the Government with a request for further financial assistance for Kirstenbosch arises from the fact of its own title. It is looked upon as a garden and a place where people can go to see beautiful flowers. This can be very misleading and it makes the hon. member’s task more difficult, because when he asks for money for a garden, then the real fundamental values which are implicit in the existence of Kirstenbosch are likely to be overlooked. Those values, and it is true some of them are associated with the wonderful flowers that can be produced there in profusion, are nevertheless much more widely based than that in terms of scientific value to South Africa.

I would say in passing that with every year that passes new techniques, new methods, and new instruments which are being used by scientists to evaluate our natural flora in South Africa and all those matters associated with the natural flora, are increasing year by year. New techniques are being evolved in other countries and being picked up very quickly by our scientists in South Africa, and some of the techniques are being evolved in South Africa and then adopted by other countries. The hon. member referred to some of our beautiful flowers which are being domesticated in countries overseas, and unfortunately we have domesticated some of the plants from other countries here in South Africa, much to our dislike. I leave it to my colleagues to deal with that aspect presently. I must admit I was very interested when I heard certain things mentioned in a S.A.B.C. broadcast the other day. Usually I do not listen to the S.A.B.C. with any great pleasure, but on this occasion the visiting Minister of Agriculture of Western Australia was being interviewed on the radio. He dealt with one of our watsonias which has become a pest in his country, and said: “I wish you would take it all back to South Africa.”

Here is a particular bloom of which we are proud and it appeared from what was said that this species finds its home and its only home in South Africa in a very limited area around Port Elizabeth. It has not spread in its own homeland, but it has gone to Western Australia and it has become a pest there. So not only techniques but also plants travel round the world. Their value is appreciated and developed in one part of the world, but it may not be appreciated and developed elsewhere. We have to thank some of our own development in connection with forestry to this. Some of our forestry development is based upon eucalyptus and what is commonly called a wattle, the acacias, which come from Australian sources. In terms of economic value these developments to-day run into many millions of rands per annum. We must not lose sight of this side of the matter when we talk about the Kirstenbosch National Botanical Gardens, and so forth. The idea of a garden gives us the wrong impression. We are only at the beginning of the appreciation of the scientific value of our own flora and fauna, but certainly flora for the purposes of this discussion. As I said, these new techniques are being extended year by year and, because we do not have the means of evaluating, we have failed to appreciate much of what is available underfoot here in our own country. We see a plant like the Welwitsia Miribilis from South-West Africa.

What is the position in regard to a plant like that? People see it and they say: “This is a wonderful plant, how does it manage to exist under these desert conditions?” Then someone writes a little article and says it has a very long tap root or it has an underground stem, its roots go down a long way, it draws on sub-terranean sources of water, and that sort of thing. Then they talk about golf or race-horsing or something or other and they forget all about one of the most remarkable plants that we have got in the whole of Southern Africa. As far as I have been able to ascertain we have learnt no lessons from it, but perhaps we are not in a position to evaluate the lessons we can learn from that one plant. A similar position exists in regard to the scores of varieties of plants which we have got. Perhaps we are not able to evaluate them.

Let us look at homo sapiens for a moment as an example of what I am trying to indicate. We have new techniques and new instruments for evaluating some aspects of the daily lives of human beings which until a few years ago were quite unknown because they were never recognized. It has taken all the years right up until a few years ago for somebody to get up and question how it is, for example, that the Patagonians can live in a climate which is bitterly cold with no clothing on them. They do not have warm furs and coats and that sort of thing. How does it come about that they can endure that cold? How is it that there are people up in the Arctic Circle who do use warm clothing but who get most of their food from bitterly ice-cold water? They spend hours and hours on end in that cold water getting shellfish with their bare hands. How do they manage that? Why do they not lose their hands and feet from frostbite? It was never questioned. They were also people, they were part of homo sapiens and nobody worried much about it. It was not given a thought until somebody came along and questioned it. It was found, as you no doubt know, Sir, that up in the north people who were descended from Mongoloids stock have a special blood system in their bodies and that their hands and feet can get 50 per cent more blood pumped to them in any given time than people from Caucasoid stock. Up in the north where you have descendants of Caucasoid stock and of Mongoloid stock, the Mongols can stand that cold water and the Caucasoid stock cannot. Therefore the one group find their food among shellfish and in the water and the other group find it from reindeer and from the land, because of their own physical properties built into them.

Our plants are like that also. We have plants that can withstand drought, we have plants that can stand up to the natural conditions of life here in a certain climate which we have got, the soil conditions, and so forth. But plants do not stand in isolation, separated from the rest of the living world, they stand as communities. A community is not only a plant community but it is a community where there are birds, animals and insects and the whole of the living life which form our set-up here in South Africa. It is the study of the community which can bring so much benefit to South Africa, but we need money and we need trained scientists who will question and evaluate, and we need the money to train them and to keep them here in South Africa when we have trained them. To train our South African people, the first thing to do to evaluate the primary necessities for research in South Africa, is to have South Africans to do it. Let the man born and bred in this country be trained as a scientist. We have got plenty of raw material. The money is needed. I am quite certain in my own mind that the driving force, the compelling force, is there; it is inborn; it is built into our young South Africans, and they will use it if they are given the opportunity. Train them and let them be the scientists and come forward to evaluate what we have got to offer in the way of economic advantage. If, instead of talking about Kirstenbosch as a garden, we could express Kirstenbosch in terms of rands and cents, if we could show the value in terms of rands and cents, then we would have a very much quicker approach to the hon. the Minister of Finance, who sooner or later has to open the purse if we are to get the money for the purpose of scientific research. We want the money. If we can show him a profit for South Africa then our case will be easier than merely to talk about the development of gardens.

In that connection I want to say we have vast areas which are not properly called gardens but which should be brought into the ambit of any development programme used for the training of scientists and so forth. I am sorry the hon. the Minister of Forestry is not here because one of the aspects touched on by the hon. member who moved this motion was the forestry side of it. I am glad the hon. the Deputy Minister of Agriculture is here because from time to time we have a Select Committee dealing with state-owned land and we get reports about areas which were set aside as part of a scheduled or proclaimed forestry area, sometimes on the mountains, sometimes in the valleys. We have various levels of country from 11,000 feet high in the Drakensberg right down to sea level and the swamps at the mouths of some of our rivers up in Zululand. We have this vast change in altitude with a corresponding change in the communities that inhabit the different levels, and I think this fact is of great value to our scientists. In the course of their work the Department of Forestry find that very often a piece of land has been proclaimed a forest under the Act and then they do not want it. They say then it is not suitable for the cultivation of trees and they wash their hands of it. They say it cannot produce whatever it is that they want to grow and so they are not interested. What happens to that land? It gets excised, resolutions of this House are passed, as well as those of the Other Place. It goes to the Department of Lands, that department then decides to lease it for grazing or else they hand it over to some neighbouring farmer who has an uneconomic holding. In this way the land gets back into private ownership. It is a great pity. That land is publicly owned, it is quite unfit for forestry, but covered with its natural vegetation it is worth untold gold to South Africa if we would use it for the purposes of research in its thousands upon thousands of morgen. We do not want to worry about 40 or 50 acres. As I said not so long ago, in America they have gone throughout the whole of the West looking for a piece of undisturbed prairie land and they could not find it. Eventually they found such a piece of land in a graveyard. Because the graveyard had sharp corners and they employed graders and steam ploughs and what have you to plough the whole area, so that they could dig the graves easily, the graders went round and left the corners untouched and in those corners was the only land they could find in the Western states which was untouched prairie land. When they examined that soil and plants, they found plants and organisms which had not been seen since the times of the great buffalo herds in the Western states of America. They found organisms there which were valuable from the point of view of contributing to the fertility of the soil in the production of their wheat crops, and so forth.

We are at the beginning of it and therefore we should learn from other people. We should not hand these lands over to private ownership because they are on an unproductive mountainside. Never mind about the use of those areas in the line of their being utilized for the protection of water supplies—“water-bronne”. Never mind that. Let us look for a moment at the vegetation. As the hon. member said just now, we have got to protect our soil which we live on and by which we live. It is not all just soil; some of it is rock but it has got its vegetation and its specialist types of vegetation. By scientific investigation of our vegetation and the communities that go with that vegetation we can derive immense advantage in rands and cents in the future of our own country. We need the money, the scientists and we must make use of what we have available here to us in the way of land which is not being utilized at the present time adequately for scientific purposes, but which the scientist will make the fullest use of if we have the money to develop the new techniques and the new plant and equipment which they are using for the purpose of evaluating what we have got.

I want to congratulate the hon. member for Nelspruit on having found this opportunity to raise this important and interesting matter here. I also want to contratulate him on the way in which he did it. The hon. member occupies an exceptional position because there are not many more of us who have places in their constituencies after which popular plants are named. The hon. member is in the fortunate position of representing areas from which the Barberton Daisy and the Pride of De Kaap, the Bauhinia Galpinii, so popular in gardens, derived their popular names. Therefore it is all the more fitting that the hon. member should be the one to raise this subject here.

As a city dweller it is a pleasure for me to support him. The asphalt and concrete of our cities lead to an estrangement from nature. Now, more than ever, it is necessary for us to give attention to these matters, because at present there is still a generation representing the transitional period from the country to the city, a generation which may also disappear within the next few decades. Therefore the present is the appropriate time to give fresh consideration to publicizing and conserving our natural heritage, while we still have all these plants and are merely seeking more effective methods for their conservation. It is unnecessary to say—the hon. member for Nelspruit also did so, though in a different way—that the indigenous florae are the garments of a country. Nothing is more intimately a part of the soil on which we live than the flora. In the indigenous flora of our country we see the essential features, the essential nature, of each region. One can judge by the flora whether it is hot or cold, dry or wet, whether the soil is sour or sweet, whether there is a great deal of sunlight or of shadow. One actually knows one’s country by its flora, and vice versa, one cannot know one’s country if one does not know its flora.

The hon. member for South Coast displayed a very interesting approach to this. His approach was more economically orientated, and I am sure that a great deal can be done in that direction. But if, speaking of these matters, we think in economic terms, it is the succeeding generation which is going to pay the price. We can never think about a matter such as this in purely economic terms, because we are here dealing with values which cannot be measured in economic terms. The hon. member referred here to the Watsonias which have become such a nuisance in Australia. I am sorry that Australia has the nuisance, but you will also know that the sickle-bush of South Africa caused a great deal of difficulty in Cuba a few years ago, although we are not so sorry about that as we are about the Watsonias in Australia. It simply happens to be the position, in this country too, that exotic plants are regarded as being more valuable than indigenous ones. Thereby one runs a risk, as we do here as well. For example, here we sit with the Port Jacksons in the Western Cape, which we obtained from Australia. Australia is saddled with the Watsonia species—actually a sort of “tit-for-tat”.

As I have said, we frequently think that exotic plants are superior to our own. We are frequently impressed by the description given of exotic trees, shrubs and plants. When one thinks of large trees, one’s thoughts are so dominated by the Americans’ description of their Redwoods that one simply takes it for granted that there can be nothing comparable in South Africa. But we have our fine specimens too. Thus, for example, we have the Big Tree near Knysna along the Garden Route and the Wonderboom at Pretoria. I wonder how many of you have read the description of a group of Acacia Galpinii by Eugene Marais. You will find it in a book published last year under the title “ ’n Paradys van Weleer”. He describes the Acacia Galpinii of the Magalakwien River. On page 118 he states that the lowest branches of the Acacia Galpinii are thicker than the trunk of the largest oak in the streets of Stellenbosch. On page 120 he states that the trunk of the Acacia Galpinii is 78 feet in circumference at a height of three feet from the ground, and that if the accumulated sand deposits of the centuries could be cleared away to the stump, the circumference there would be about 146 feet. The height of the tree from the stump would be about 400 feet. And then it must be remembered that while the Redwood grows straight, the Acacia Galpinii spreads its branches. The area covered by its shadow at noon is 7,200 square yards.

This is therefore something to be considered. We must consider conserving these fine specimens of our indigenous plants for our descendants. Although we are concerned here with such large dimensions as could never be equalled in a garden, there is still always the possibility, for the man who wants to plant such a tree in his garden, of dreaming of the large trees which will one day be standing there—even though it is almost like the rooster who stood beside the ostrich egg and said to the hen, “It can be done”!

In order to stimulate interest in the National Botanic Gardens of South Africa, it is necessary to eliminate the lack of knowledge in respect of our indigenous flora. Let me say immediately that Kirstenbosch and other national botanic gardens have gone a long way towards doing this. But in the efforts to bring this knowledge to the public, shortcomings still exist. In addition, the means for doing so are also meagre. In the past few years we have had a great deal of interest in the cultivation of Proteas, Pincushions, and Heath—probably the most spectacular kinds of plants in the whole world. In fact, I do not believe that there are shrubs anywhere else in the world that flower for longer periods than do these three kinds. There are, of course, reasons for the greater interest in these plants. The book by Marie Vogts and the book about our Heath, which appeared recently, have contributed a great deal towards supplementing knowledge and stimulating interest. But these books are expensive. The book about Heath, which appeared last year, cost, I think, about R12 and that price had already been subsidized! However, I am convinced that if we want to rouse the interest of our people, we must be prepared to spend more on the publication of such works, as lasting propaganda for this matter.

This subject can be presented vividly, and it is a fact that as soon as people have some knowledge of the plants, they develop the urge to grow some themselves, and only when one begins to grow a plant, does one develop a love for their conservation wherever one encounters them in the veld. That link is absolutely necessary. There are still so many riches to be brought under cultivation in this connection. The hon. member for Nelspruit has indicated that many of our plants are known in other parts of the world. But it is perhaps not so generally known that in Australia the small shrub which grows about two or three feet high, Adenandra Fragrans, with the leaf which smells like licorice, is regarded as the best small shrub in the entire world. Then there is our own Virgilia Capensis perhaps the tree with the most rapid growth in the world. However, it is very seldom cultivated in our gardens. Then there are our beautiful shade trees—our White Stinkwood trees, our Red Natal Mahogany trees. I do not believe that there is a more beautiful shade tree in the whole world than our Natal Mahogany tree. Apparently this tree is not as sensitive to frost as was generally expected at first either, because it is now being cultivated on a somewhat larger scale. Our flowering trees, the Wild Wisteria and the Cape Chestnut, are also believed to be without equal in the world, but how seldom does one see the trees in any garden in South Africa? One seldom if ever does.

Besides the encouragement of literature to stimulate this interest, I think that we must also think of promoting the availability of plants for cultivation in home gardens. As far as this is concerned, the situation is a miserable one. Due to the lack of literature in which there is an adequate description of the plant—how large it grows, what its growth rate is and what type of soil it must have, etc., there is still a lot of confusion in some respects about the characteristics of our South African plants. This must be supplemented, but the availability of these plants is an equally great problem. Where does one obtain these plants? At the commercial nurseries, for example, one may search for years to obtain something like the Ochna Pulchra, which grows on the northern slopes of Pretoria, with the white bark and yellow flower in spring, which later change to the red bracts and the dark coloured purplish-brown berry underneath, one of the most vivid trees in the world, especially in the spring when it displays its copper red leaves cannot obtain it in a commercial nursery. The Burkea Africana, the Wild Syringa, which one also finds there on the northern slopes, with its flat crown and grey leaves, one cannot obtain in any commercial nursery, I have referred to the Adenandra Fragrans. The Adenandra Uniflora, one of our best and most beautiful shrubs, one cannot obtain anywhere in a nursery either. Thought will have to be given to extending this work of the botanic gardens to the individual, the family, the community, in order to ensure that, besides the publications, the nurseries who devote themselves to indigenous plants, are assisted in the propagation of those plants, so that they can be made available for people’s private properties, even if it must be done by means of further subsidies. I think that if we do this we can give the work and the money spent on these botanical gardens a much greater effectiveness, something we have perhaps previously not managed to do.

I should like not only to thank the hon. member for Nelspruit but also to congratulate him on this motion. He raised a matter which, as the hon. member for South Coast also said, is not a political matter, but a national matter which we must discuss jointly and exchange information and suggestions on. Because South Africa, owing to its climatic conditions, has great fluctuations, we have many kinds of plants. For example, along the Cape coast the weather and the soil conditions change tremendously, and if one travels a little further inland one finds what are virtually desert conditions. In the same country we have sub-tropical regions where one finds an entirely different type of vegetation. Then one has the Karoo on the other hand which has different characteristics. One has a winter rainfall region as opposed to a summer rainfall region, and one has low rainfall regions as against high rainfall regions, and there are also desert conditions. The result of this is that South Africa to-day has the richest variety of plant species in the world. In South Africa we have plus-minus 18,000 species of flowers, and the sixth largest country in the world is Russia, and this only has 20,000 species. The United States of America is seven times the size of our country and it has only 15,000. This small Cape Peninsula comprises only 180 square miles, and has as many indigenous plants as the British Isles. This is an indication of the treasure we have in this country. That is why I am pleased that it is possible to discuss such a heritage as we have in our hands by means of a motion such as that of the hon. member for Nelspruit. However, I do want to say to the hon. member for South Coast, arising from what the hon. member for Innesdal said about Port Jackson, that he must remember that we also imported the hakea from Australia as an ornamental hedge, and as a result we are finding ourselves in a tight spot to-day. And if he talks to a farmer about foreign plants, there is always the khaki bush which was also brought into this country, and also the satan bush. Those countries gave us many things which have caused us great difficulty. It is also a pleasure to participate in a motion on which, in the first place, the hon. member for Nelspruit spoke, who hails from a sub-tropical area, who was then seconded by an hon. member who has made his living from forestry, in an entirely different climatic region, and then to find that a city dweller such as the hon. member for Innesdal also displaying an interest in the ornamental gardens in the cities. We have stated before in this House that we are discovering that the city dwellers are multiplying. The concrete flat dwellers are increasing in numbers and this is an occasion to say to them: Circumstances are such that you have to live in those buildings, but you can spend your week-ends in a garden so that you do nevertheless have a measure of contact with the soil.

Now I should like to refer very briefly to what has already been done. Because the Government is very sympathetically-disposed towards this matter of the conservation of our plants, there is the Botanical Research Institute, which at present falls under the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. This includes the maintenance of the National Herbariums at Pretoria and the Regional Herbarium in Durban, and those at Grahamstown, Stellenbosch and Kimberley. The Department is giving attention to the provision on a national level of plant identification and instruction services regarding indigenous plants, as well as weeds and cultivated seeds, and annually an average of 20,000 plant specimen identifications are made and thousands of other inquiries are replied to by this Botanical Institute. The national herbarium of the Department contains approximately a half-million specimens, whereas the collections of the regional herbariums comprise a further 150,000 specimens. In addition there is a team of trained botanists engaged in a comprehensive revision and classification of 18,000 species of our country’s flora. These include plants from South-West Africa, Lesotho and Swaziland. We also have in our institute a permanent liaison officer stationed at the world famous herbarium of the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew. At the moment this post is occupied by Mr. Oliver, who is returning in July. These men remain there for three years. In addition the Department undertakes botanical surveys where plants are catalogued and species of flora in South Africa are defined. Botanical surveys include the drawing up of distribution maps of plant species and the study of factors influencing their distribution. We also have the standard work of Acocks on the “Veldtipes van Suid-Afrika”. This is the most extensive and intensive study of its kind ever undertaken on the Continent of Africa. We also have, if we subdivide it into groups, a study, survey and collection of indigenous plants which are of potential economic importance. We must consider the economic side as well. However, I agree with the hon. member for Innesdal that our children will suffer if we say that we should regard this matter as a profitable industry. That is not the intention at all. But one does have plants which can entail economic benefits for one. I am mentioning for example the edible, medicinal oleaginous and fibrous plants. These have been planted in groups in order to study their potential value. I think hon. members are aware of the fact that we are manufacturing cortisone from the elephant’s foot plant as a result of this research. Then I am thinking of the maintenance of botanical gardens at Pretoria, at Brumeria, for indigenous plants for study purposes. These national gardens cover 90 morgen, and are also there to be used by the public who are interested in our flora for recreational purposes; it is of great value to them. The hon. member for Nelspruit emphasized that these matters should be brought to the attention of the public. It is of no use having these gardens if one does not reach the public in order to stimulate its ideas in that direction.

We come now to the publications which were mentioned, which require as much attention in order to publicize the matter among the people whom we want to accommodate. Here I am thinking of the most important publications, which are published with the assistance of the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. There is Botalia. Since 1921 ten volumes each volume consisting of four sections, have appeared. There is “Blomplante van Afrika”. This, series consists of coloured illustrations of plants. Since 1921 38 volumes have appeared, in which more than 1,500 of our plants have been illustrated. There is Flora of Southern Africa. This contains a survey of botanical descriptions of all the flowers of the Republic, as well as South-West Africa, Lesotho and Swaziland. There is the Botanical Survey Memoirs; 38 editions of this series have already appeared since 1919. There are various other publications, but I am mentioning one to you here, Flowers of the Transvaal, a book which I agree with the hon. member for Innesdal, unfortunately costs R12.50 at a subsidized price, but it is truly a treasure in any home. It is illustrated. Sir, there you see the lily of the field described in the good book; it neither spins nor weaves. All the beautiful colours are to be found in this book, complete with descriptions. I am mentioning another publication, also compiled with the assistance of the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, namely Ericas in Southern Africa. These are the species of heath in our country, and they are also illustrated in colour. It is a beautiful work. These are all treasures of our nation which we are in this way trying to draw attention to. Then I am thinking of our information services, the work which is being done by the Vrouelandbouvereniging, the land service movement and the boy scouts. All these people are in some way or other doing something and they are being assisted in this. Reference was made to the Department of Forestry. I was surprised when I went into these matters, to see what the Department of Forestry is actually doing. It is with pride that I can refer to this book. The Minister of Forestry to-day has the power to declare a state forest in the Gazette in any part of our country which he thinks should be reserved in order to protect the grass, the trees, the flowers, and the ferns. He has the right to do so and, as the hon. member stated, he has already protected 15,930 morgen in this way. In addition to the nature reserves the Department of Forestry at the moment controls 226,800 morgen of indigenous forest. In addition this Department controls 1.2 million morgen of State land as water catchment areas. This brings me to the point which the hon. member for South Coast made. I was not aware of those regions to which he referred, but we in the Department of Land Tenure are subjected to tremendous criticism from farmers who state: There the land is lying; let us utilize it. The Department of Forestry, and also as far as the problem of the silting up of our dams is concerned, the Department of Land Tenure is withdrawing some of this land to let it lie fallow rather than to have it trampled, and so preserve it for posterity. Now one always finds this difficulty. If the State has a piece of land which is lying fallow the farmers always ask why it is lying fallow. You know, Sir, grass is something which a farmer wants to see devoured. But I think we must simply be firm and say that we are going to protect the soil there. I am thinking of the work being done by the Department of Forestry in the Cedarberg Forest reserve in the Western Cape. At present the Department is engaged in projects there in re-establishing the Clanwilliam cedar. This is a cedar which would otherwise have died out. In the same way protea seed orchards have been laid out in the highlands forest reserve in the vicinity of Grabouw, from where protea seed is made available for sale. In its forest reserves the Department makes facilities such as roads, picnic spots, camping spots and footpaths available. The Department is spending R30,000 in one year alone on these few things simply to make it possible for the public to reach, see and admire our natural beauty spots.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to go further and refer to our Provincial authorities and what they are doing to promote nature conservation, etc. In the Cape Province there are seven provincial nature gardens. At Springbok alone there are 6,000 morgen where the veld flowers of Namaqualand, which are probably one of the most sought after sights in the world, after it has rained, are being protected. In conjunction with local authorities 41 natural gardens have been laid out in the Cape Province. This has contributed a great deal towards arousing a pride in their flora among the local communities. The Provincial Administration of the Cape contributes 50 per cent to the expenditure in connection with the nature reserves, and an amount of R132,000 was made available for that purpose during 1969-’70. In the Transvaal there are 17 nature reserves covering a surface area of 63,000 morgen, while Natal can boast of 33 reserves consisting of more than a quarter million morgen. I do not know why Natal is being favoured! The Orange Free State, unfortunately, only has one nature reserve consisting of 13,000 morgen.

We come then to our national and provincial parks, to which the hon. member for Nelspruit also referred. Sir, we must not, if we visit the public game reserves, only look at the wild animals. At these reserves one is able to obtain a list of the names of the species of trees in the reserve. These things must be expanded; one should be able to obtain a list of all the grass types and plants growing there. When we go to the game reserve, we look only at the wild life, the lions, the elephants and the predators, but we should also look at the trees, the birds sitting in the trees, not only the big birds but the small ones as well. Other bodies which are making contributions are the Departments of botany at our universities where the indigenous flora of our country is being studied. In addition there are our schools which are making a contribution through the Pathfinders, the Voortrekkers and the Land Service—all nature enthusiasts.

I then come to Kirstenbosch and in this regard I want to say that in 1967 the hon. the Minister of National Education appointed a committee of inquiry to investigate the requirements of state-aided institutions. Virtually all the recommendations of this committee were accepted by the Cabinet. One of the recommendations was the establishment of a statutory advisory council. In addition the new basis for State aid will take effect from 1st April of this year. During the present financial year the total income from the National Botanic Gardens was R184,312, and the Department of Agricultural Technical Services added R119,000. I can state unequivocally here that the hon. member for South Coast need not feel concerned that Kirstenbosch, because it is called a garden, will not be dealt with sympathetically. This Department will always be sympathetically disposed towards it. As the hon. member for Nelspruit rightly said, the Department not only looks after the plant, but looks after the plant, the soil and man, because if there is a blanket over the land, if it is covered, then our future generations have a chance of a good life.

In regard to the expansion of regional gardens, this committee to which I referred, realized the need for the national botanic gardens to be able to carry out their functions in a truly national way. These gardens must be expanded to other Provinces. Their reserves must be expanded to other Provinces. Provisional arrangements in regard to the establishment of a Lowveld Botanic gardens at Nelspruit and the Natal Midlands Botanic Gardens at Pietermaritzburg have progressed to a stage where offers of suitable sites and a certain measure of financial assistance have already been made by the various municipalities. We owe these municipalities who made an offer of land for this noble purpose a vote of thanks. Since there are so many bodies which are to-day concerned with the conservation and the protection of our indigenous flora, the Department of Agricultural Technical Services has taken the initiative of establishing a co-ordinating advisory committee on flora and fauna in order to provide all interested parties with advice so that unnecessary duplication can be avoided. The wholehearted co-operation of all these bodies in this regard is greatly appreciated. Now I also want to make mention of Nakor, the co-ordinating council for nature conservation, which acts in a co-ordinating capacity on a broad level.

Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude with this idea, for the information of all who have this matter at heart. The Research Institute for Fruit and Nutritional Technology is a special research section which concerns itself with and concentrates on veld flowers, particularly proteas, while the botanical institute in Pretoria also gives attention to veld flowers. The hon. member for Innesdal stated here that he was unable to obtain certain species of trees, and in this connection he mentioned the wild lilac. My experience of the wild lilac is that where it grows there is leaf poisoning and cattle die if they walk there. But wild lilac in a garden is of course a different matter. At the Roodeplaats research station at Pretoria a whole section has been set aside in order to inform the people of Pretoria as to what specific shrubs they can grow in their gardens. We will give attention to the provision of these plants to nurseries. City councils and local authorities ought to be encouraged to display more initiative themselves in laying out nature reserves and not always asking the State and the Province and Kirstenbosch for assistance. That is why I am pleased that the hon. member for Nelspruit referred to the City Council of Cape Town in a friendly way as far as this matter was concerned. Sir, ours is a country richly endowed with green grazing lands, with grass plains, with bush covered hills, mountains and gullies, and if we tackle this matter in the spirit of the ideas expressed here by hon. members and bring home to the people that if they do something for South Africa’s soil, if they are prepared to encourage our youth to take an interest in botany and the conservation of our flora along the channel which has been created, then I believe that it will be supported by this Department and then I see light for us in the future.

The hon. member for Nelspruit has moved a very interesting motion, which has received the support of all members who have spoken, and quite rightly so, because I believe that this present generation of which we are members has a very important obligation to the generations of the future and that is to see that all forms of wild life, with which our country is so richly blessed, is properly preserved for the generations to come. I think previous speakers have given us a very clear outline of the tremendous efforts that are being made by the various organizations in the country, and I think that we as South Africans can be very proud of all the steps that have been taken by the various departments and provinces to preserve and to display and to put out publications about our wild life. I think that these efforts are very commendable and I do not think there is any need for me to speak further about these efforts. The Deputy Minister himself has given us a very good outline of what is being done. Sir, it is difficult when one has heard what is already being done to try to come forward with suggestions as to what may still be done. Is there still place for improvement? I think we must recognize that there is always room for improvement. We are glad for what has been done but there are aspects where we can make further efforts, and I want to draw attention to one field in which I think more can be done. We all realize that in the matter of nature conservation, decentralization of effort is a good thing. That was accepted at the time of Union when the various provinces were entrusted with the duty of conserving our nature. Each province plays a very real part in this regard. I think decentralization of effort is the right approach but I do feel that where the Deputy Minister said that a co-ordinating body should be brought into being, he is on the right track, otherwise there is going to be a tremendous amount of overlapping of effort, and I think that this should be avoided where possible. Sir, in the Cape Province we have no fewer than 41 nature reserves which are subsidized by the province. These cover a very extensive portion of the Cape Province, but there are still many areas which, I believe, do not have a nature reserve of any kind. There are 41 nature reserves. Several of them are in one district, whereas other districts have none at all. I believe that this is a matter to which this co-ordinating committee to which the Deputy Minister referred, could well give its attention. In the Karoo, the area from which I come, there are many districts which have very interesting flora and fauna, and with the passage of time much of this vegetation is being destroyed and will not be there for the generations to come unless active steps are taken now to create some kind of reserve where this vegetation and, to a lesser extent, the animals can be preserved. I think of an area like the district from which I come, the Graaff-Reinet district with its nationally known Valley of Desolation, would I believe be an ideal place to establish a nature reserve. In that area there are not only animals of interest but also vegetation of tremendous interest there, especially in the field of the aloe. I believe that a municipality like that of Graaff-Reinet, if it could get more assistance than it has been offered in the past, would be very happy to set aside a portion of its commonage in order to turn this Valley of Desolation area into a nature reserve for the benefit not only of the present generation but also for the benefit of posterity.

What about tortoises?

The hon. member says “What about tortoises?” I am not so sure about that. There are also other areas which deserve our attention. Take a district like Middelburg in the Cape, which has vegetation that is entirely different from that of Graaff-Reinet. There is no nature reserve there of any kind, although, of course, the agricultural college at Grootfontein does take steps to try to preserve the vegetation by means of certain of their field experiments. In the district of Molteno you also have a totally different type of vegetation and the climatic conditions are quite different from those that prevail in the Karoo and at the present time no effort is being made to preserve for posterity the vegetation that grows there. I believe it is important to try to preserve the vegetation that grows in a particular area in the habitat where it belongs. In the Kirstenbosch Botanic Gardens you have assembled all the various types of plants that we have in the country for the public to see, but I believe that to be of real botanical value it must be possible to study these plants in their natural habitat, in the environment to which they belong, and it is for that reason that, in supporting the hon. member’s motion, I make a very strong plea that the necessary finance should be made available through the municipalities and the divisional councils to the various districts of the Cape so that we can be quite sure that within a very short space of time a nature reserve will be established in each one of these districts, a nature reserve in which the flora and fauna of that particular area can be preserved and looked after in its natural habitat. But not only must that be done; I believe that these reserves should be developed even further so that those who visit the reserves can better understand their significance. The various plants which grow there should have their names indicated; their particular value as grazing plants should be indicated, and where they are plants of not much value an indication should be given of the harm that they do and of the importance of eradicating them. After all, not every plant is a useful plant.

We should have these reserves covering the whole of the Cape Province. They must be well looked after and easily accessible by road and paths. The vegetation in these reserves have their names, value and significance well indicated by proper notices. These reserves will become an important factor in making our public and also our farmers more conscious of the economic importance of the variety of plants we have and also make them more conscious of preserving what we have for posterity. In this way I think we can promote this question of preserving the cover of our soil to which the mover of this motion referred and which is so important in combating soil erosion. The public must be made more conscious of the value of our vegetation so that they may help too with this question of soil conservation, which is something to which I have often referred in this House.

Mr. Speaker, coming from one of the most beautiful areas in South Africa and appreciating the importance of nature conservation and preserving flora in South Africa this motion is naturally to me a very interesting and important one. I am only sorry that the motion does not go further than to stipulate National Botanical Gardens. However, I want to deal very briefly with the financial side of the motion.

I was a member of the Cape Provincial Council for years, and it was in the Provincial Council that I realized and appreciated the importance of preserving flora in South Africa. In the Provincial Council I had to do with nature reserves and subsidies pertaining to nature reserves. The Government subsidizes the National Parks Board and Botanical Gardens; this fact has already been mentioned. I want to point out to this hon. House what the provincial councils are doing in assisting the preservation of flora in South Africa. In the Cape Province alone the Administration in 1967-’68 paid out for nature reserves the sum of R45,000 and in the same year for nature conservation in general an amount of R96,850. For this year, according to the provincial council estimates of expenditure, I see they Province has budgeted for an amount of R160,925 for nature reserves and—this is important—an amount of R288,800 for nature conservation. This is a large sum of money and it will be used to subsidize city councils, town councils, divisional councils and all other bodies in matters pertaining to nature reserves. I am well aware of the fact, and I am satisfied that this province is doing all it possibly can at this stage, with the financial resources at its disposal, to preserve flora in South Africa. I see in the Estimates of Expenditure for the Cape Province the increase is more than three-fold for the next year. One can therefore see how we in the Cape realize the great need and importance of preserving flora. I might mention too that in the Cape Province 50 per cent of expenditure is paid in subsidies. This includes a reserve such as the “Table Mountain Reserve”, where of course there are hazards such as fire. Fire is one of the greatest hazards we have, not only here in the Cape Province, but all over South Africa. I noticed the other day in doing certain work in the Newcastle constituency, what a beautiful part of the country that is. Even there in one of the finest parts of our country we see some terrible scars being formed, and created by none other than man himself. I noticed that the hon. member for Uitenhage seemed quite interested for a few moments in what I was saying! Last year the State grant to botanical societies in South Africa was a mere R119,000. It is for this reason I find it a pleasure to support the motion.

I do believe the State should be assisting the botanical societies to a greater extent than is the case at the moment. When we see beautiful gardens such as Kirstenbosch, Bloemfontein, Nelspruit, Harrismith, Worcester and Betty’s Bay which need financial assistance very badly, I believe it is time the Government seriously considered giving these institutions more financial assistance. More money is needed to preserve flora in South Africa. I do not want to cover ground which has already been covered, all that has been said should not be viewed only in terms of tourist attractions. I view this subject, as far as tourist attractions are concerned only as a sideline. Can one imagine what South Africa will look like by the year 2000 if too little is done to preserve our rich botanical heritage? It is estimated that by the turn of the century there will be no less than 40 million people living in South Africa, and at the rate we are deliberately destroying our beautiful scenery, and our flora, there will be absolutely nothing left by the year 2000. No so long ago when I was a young boy and used to walk in the veld of the Eastern Cape and Border on hot summer days, I could lie down and drink from a crystal clear stream of running water at any time, or any place. One cannot do this now. To-day we find that people have deliberately contaminated the streams which nourish our flora and vegetation from which grows the most beautiful foliage one could ever wish to see. In our streams we find cans, empty tins, bottles, oil drums, and even derelict motor cars. We also find rubbish lying all over the place destroying flora and defacing our scenery. I appeal to the State to consider this matter very seriously, and to assist these bodies with more money. The provincial councils are doing so, as I have already said, but they are strained to the limits financially. I know of people in the Cape Provincial Council who are going out of their way to preserve fauna and flora in South Africa. But I believe the Government can do more in developing our National Botanic Gardens in South Africa.

Mr. Speaker, this motion moved by the hon. member for Nelspruit has enjoyed the support of both sides of the House and rightly so, because the work being done at Kirstenbosch is work of national importance and is work of a very high standard. If this work is to be brought to the fullest possible fruition then it is necessary that it be carried over the country as a whole. This point was also made by the hon. member for Innesdal. One of the ways in which it can be carried over and by which it can be supplemented is via the other channels of the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. Here I particularly have in mind the staff of the department who are engaged in botanical survey, namely the botanical survey officers. These people have done very good work, but I think the hon. the Deputy Minister will agree with me that there are occasions when they find it difficult to keep the complement of botanical survey officers up to strength, I think this has happened in the past. If the hon. the Deputy Minister will grant me his attention for a minute, I would like to say to him that I hope that he will pay attention to this aspect regarding the staff of his department. I think he should keep the botanical survey side of his department completely up to strength as far as it lies in his power to do so. This question of the botanical survey is very intimately connected with the matter the hon. the Deputy Minister himself mentioned here, namely the plant herbariums or plant libraries. One knows the value of these libraries and as the hon. the Deputy Minister has said, there is one in the town which is the centre of my constituency, namely Grahamstown, and a very valuable function it performs. It is necessary that this should be a continuing work because our knowledge in the plant field is certainly not complete by any means. This also has economic importance, for example, as regards which plants are poisonous to stock. Here the plant libraries, although they possess a great deal of information, still do not know all the poisonous plants in South Africa. I had a case about five years ago where we were able to identify another poisonous plant, which was not listed by the plant library as being poisonous but that we, with the co-operation of Onderstepoort, were able to identify as being a very poisonous species indeed.

I realize that the hon. the Deputy Minister is aware of the importance of these plant libraries, and I hope this is a section of the department which will not be stinted. Hon. members on both sides have mentioned the part played, not merely by the Central Government, but also by the provincial authorities. I want to say that we are hoping to emulate in a very friendly way in Grahamstown the activities of Kirstenbosch here in the Western Cape. The taking over of the botanical gardens there by the Provincial Administration and their subsequent extension into an overall nature reserve is a factor of very great importance for the Eastern Cape as a whole and for the country as a whole. It is certainly our aim to establish what will be a second Kirstenbosch. These are botanical gardens of very long standing dating certainly from the 1850s and perhaps a little earlier. It is a most suitable place to have a nature reserve of that kind, and there no less than seven ecological areas—I will not call them regions—with types of vegetation and different climates which meet at that point. You have your winter rainfall area with your Macchia vegetation, you have your coastal summer vegetation, you have sourveld vegetation, Karoo vegetation, semi-Karoo vegetation, sweetveld vegetation, and Fish River bush. For all these reasons this is a most important central point for there to be such a second Kirstenbosch. We are extremely grateful for the very fine efforts of the Cape Provincial Administration in making funds available. As I say, we hope to emulate Kirstenbosch and built this second institution up into one which will be able to take its place alongside Kirstenbosch in a spirit of very friendly rivalry with Kirstenbosch.

Mr. Speaker, I feel that my motion was very well supported. I want to extend my sincere thanks to everybody who has participated in the debate, particularly to the hon. the Minister, and since the motion has served its purpose I shall, with your leave, Sir, withdraw it.

With leave, motion withdrawn.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to move the following motion standing in my name—

1. (1) the consumption of alcohol and tobacco with particular reference to their use and methods of promotion;
2. (2) the increasing tendency to drug depen dency and excess and combating it by—
   1. (a) formulating a system of effective control; and
   2. (b) the institution of an educational programme; and
3. (3) excessive noise in so far as the urban and built-up areas of the Republic are concerned

May I say at the outset that I am not a prohibitionist, that I do enjoy a drink, and for many years I was a smoker. But I do claim to be a realist and I believe the time has come when we must have some investigation into this question and place it in its correct perspective. There is no denying that both alcohol and tobacco can lead to dependancy and they can also lead to sickness and ill-health. I want to emphasize that if there were a drug which had the alleged sedative or tranquillizing effect, which both alcohol and tobacco are claimed to have, this drug would be under strict control, and moreover the advertising of the drug would also be under very strict control. But what is the picture as far as alcohol and tobacco are concerned? We find that every visual, audio, or audio-visual aid is enlisted to promote the sale of these two substances. No one can pick up a newspaper, go to a cinema, or listen to the commercial or regional broadcasting stations without being inundated with propaganda promoting the use and sale of these preparations. What to me is so tragic is that in many respects the advertising is directed mainly at the youth of South Africa, and I believe that as far as alcohol is concerned its appeal to youth can lead many of our youth on the slippery downhill road to eventual alcoholism.

To show what I have in mind I want to quote from some advertisements which appear regularly in the daily Press. They are big advertisements. One of them advertises a certain brand of spirits and it depicts a scene where young people besport themselves in bathing costumes in sight of the surf. I believe the suggestion is that a bottle of that type of spirits should be packed in the picnic hamper when they go to the beach. What is the result of that? Imagine the dangers to which our own lifesavers, many of them acting voluntarily to save the lives of people who get into trouble in the water, expose themselves when patrolling our beaches. What would their attitude be if they knew that they had to risk their lives to save somebody who had consumed too much alcohol on the beach and then gone in for a swim?

There is another aspect and that is the slogans which certain of these advertisers use. Listen to this: “Are your drinking habits right up-to-date?” I am sure most young people like to think they are “with it”, that they are up-to-date. They despise the so-called “squares”, as you and I are sometimes regarded, Mr. Speaker. Everything is directed at these young people. I think these slogans are wrong, I think it is wrong for people to be taught by implication that there can be no enjoyment without liquor. We know that large amounts are expended on the advertising and promotion of alcohol, and always the accent is on pleasure and enjoyment. Never do we see the other side of the coin, the morning after, the road accidents, the broken homes, the threat to health. In none of the advertisements or promotions that I have come across is there a warning issued that there may be harm in it if a person consumes alcohol, particularly to excess. We also have a State-orientated broadcasting system which is used to promote the sales of both these products.

Should this type of promotion continue unrestricted when we know that one out of every 16 individuals who consume alcohol could become an alcoholic? We are facing increasing problems with this question of alcoholism, and it causes concern in both commerce and industry. The question of productivity becomes a major issue, and we know we have a desperate manpower shortage in this country. Industry has expressed its concern through its mouthpiece, the Federated Chamber of Industries, in their organ known as Viewpoint. It is made clear therein that many aspects of alcoholism are causing deep worry. The article which I have here in my hand says that 90 per cent of alcoholics fall within the age limits of 35 and 55 years, which are the years of maximum productivity. Furthermore, surveys show that the average alcoholic loses 20 to 30 working days a year through his drinking habits. Moreover, he is twice as prone to accidents as his sober or non-drinking colleague. When it comes to what alcoholism is costing South African trade and industry a certain figure has been mentioned in more than one reliable publication. It is stated that R100 million a year is the loss suffered by trade and industry because of the overall effects of alcoholism.

Another distressing feature is the fact that much of the promotion to-day is directed at our non-European people. We already have a tragically high incidence of alcoholism among the Coloured people. This is a social problem, I believe and I think from the social welfare aspect we are entitled to ask whether this state of affairs among the Coloureds is not a legacy of the tot system. I think we must seriously ask ourselves whether the time has not come for the tot system to be taken under review. Anyone who wishes to see some of the evils of this system could well read the book called “South African Winter” by James Morris. He quotes an instance in the Cape Province where six tots of wine, the equivalent of 1¼ bottles of wine, so he says, are issued daily to farm labourers. He visited a wine farmer and his comments I think are worth repeating. He described the scene where the liquor was handed out to the farm labourers as an “eerie spectacle”. He said it was perfectly plain to him that those “dazed and ravaged Coloured labourers were in a state of perpetual debauchery”.

If we examine the findings of a survey team headed by Professor Gillis of the University of Cape Town, we find another depressing picture. This team investigated a Coloured community of 8,000 souls and they found that 22 per cent of the Coloured men could be called excessive drinkers and of these one-third were addicted alcoholics. One only has to refer to the comments of Dr. L. F. Freed, the well-known sociologist, when he addressed the Randse Afrikaanse Universiteit. He said that South Africa has the fourth-highest incidence rate of alcoholics of 20 nations examined, Then we read in a certain Press report that wine production has increased by 123 per cent in the last ten years. Time does not permit me to go into detail as far as this particular aspect is concerned, but we cannot fail to consider the role of alcohol and its excessive consumption as far as road accidents are concerned. I believe the official figures which have been released speak for themselves and tell their own sorry tale.

What State action has there been? We know that last year R71,000 was allocated for the rehabilitation of alcoholics, and this amount is 3½ times the amount voted in 1963. But if we compare that amount with the estimated R100 million which South Africa is losing, then I believe it is a small amount. One must not disregard the wonderful work that is being done by the various voluntary associations who deal with alcoholics. We have Alcoholics Anonymous. We have socially minded people who devote their energies and their money to combating this problem. Members of the public subscribe to the funds of these organizations. I have personal knowledge of Lulama in Durban. I know of the wonderful work that is being done there, I know what aftercare is given there, I know what efforts are made to help restore broken homes caused by this scourge, as I call it. I hope we will hear more during this debate of what the State is doing and what the State intends to do. I believe the State is dragging its feet in this matter.

In December, 1966, by courtesy of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions, members of this hon. House who were interested in social welfare were invited to Pretoria and after a visit to the Department’s office they were invited to visit certain rehabilitation centres. I must say what we saw there was an eye-opener to us. I think one and all left there feeling impressed and proud of what had been done and what was being done to rehabilitate these unfortunate people. But what happened after that? Going back by train that evening, I purchased an evening newspaper, and it brought me face to face with reality again! Because in the newspaper this stack of liquor advertisements appeared. I show them to hon. members. There are 12 in all, all of them advertising alcohol. These advertisements pressurize, they urge these poor derelict souls to consume alcohol, but nowhere was there any word of caution, nowhere was there a word of warning.

All I could find in the entire edition was a tiny notice by Alcoholics Anonymous on page 57, in which they drew attention to the work they did and indicated where they could be found. I was so concerned about the whole matter that I wrote to the hon. the Prime Minister sending him all the advertisements which appeared in this one edition. I told him I felt the time had come where we should be realistic about this and that we should at least investigate the matter. In reply he told me that he had referred this matter to the Minister of Justice. This is a matter which, and I am sure the Minister will bear me out, deserves the attention of his Department. As a matter of fact, the Minister and I have on occasion interchanged information on this matter. However, I am not aware of any positive action having been taken so far. In any event, there has been no improvement in the position.

In connection with this matter, I should also like to refer to the report of the commission on undesirable publications, the Cronje Commission of 1957. On page 189 hon. members will find a paragraph headed “Liquor advertisements”, which reads—

Now I ask, respectfully, what consideration has been given to this point in the report? I know South Africa is regarded as a country of free enterprise and that, hence, any interference or excessive controls are resented. That is accepted. But when advertising encourages practises and habits which lead to moral degradation and physical deterioration then, so I believe, the time has come that the State should consider this aspect. As far as promotion is concerned, I do not have the time to deal with the many examples of countries where this aspect has already been given attention. I can only say that in many countries the authorities are aware of what is going on. In certain countries limitations and controls have been imposed. In certain instances liquor advertisement is confined to “prestige” advertisements. As a matter of fact, there are a number of such prestige advertisements in this newspaper cutting I have been talking of. The name of the product is being listed but without any extravagant claims glamourizing the qualities of alcohol. As I say, this is a question which should be considered. When one sees the stress that is being placed on youth in so many of these advertisements, then we should follow the example of other countries and limit the depicting of drinking scenes especially where youths are present. I believe the general tendency is not to use photographs of young people under the age of 25.

I now want to come to tobacco and its products. I have here an unusual little exhibit. You will not find it on any of the shelves of any trader in South Africa, in any event not in this form. It is an empty cigarette packet with the following words printed on it, “Caution! Cigarette smoking may be hazardous to your health”. This packet comes from America. I have never seen anything similar in South Africa, in any event not in that form. I believe in certain states of America this type of thing is compulsory by law. In certain countries there are, in fact, certain stringent requirements. It is not my intention to prove to-day that smoking is the cause of lung cancer. One of my colleagues will deal with this aspect more specifically. All I want to say is that there is certain contradictory evidence on this point. This prevents a specific conclusion being drawn. However, I think we cannot get away from the fact that tobacco has harmful side effects. If tobacco was regarded as a drug—the Minister and I had a talk about this in his office one day when he suggested that I should make a speech on it—its sale would be rigidly controlled as it would fall under the control of the Drugs Control Council. The requirements to be observed in the advertising of tobacco would then be very strict. I am not suggesting that there should be control at this stage. All I am suggesting is that there should be an investigation to find out exactly what the position is, e.g. whether it is not wise to protect people against themselves. I believe there is ample evidence to justify such an investigation. Reports come from an increasing number of countries witnessing an increasing concern about the ill effects of the use of tobacco. In West Germany, for example, it is reported—I quote here from the German Tribune of November last—that 20,000 people per year die from nicotine poisoning, and that the figure is increasing by 1,000 every year. It is pointed out that this figure of 20,000 exceeds the number of deaths from road accidents in West Germany. In Britain and America reports have been issued in which it is stated that the mortality rate amongst cigarette smokers is two-thirds higher than amongst non-smokers.

Have you never smoked?

Yes. I smoked for years. I like my fun too. As regards the position in South Africa, I have here the Transvaal Education Bulletin of June, 1965. In this attention is drawn to some of the undesirable aspects of smoking. The title of the comments is, “The smoking habit of pupils in secondary schools”. I should just like to quote a small part of these comments—

There is yet another aspect about tobacco and its production to which I think it will be only fair to refer. In this connection I should like to quote what the previous Minister of Health, Dr. Hertzog, said in 1963 (Hansard, col. 6575) in reply to a member who raised the question of smoking and its possible harmful effects. He said—

Mr. Speaker, when I make a plea, not for prohibition, but for a responsible approach to this matter, I believe that it is in the interest of our people and particularly in the interest of our young people. If I could feel that as a result of this debate, we adopted the principle that there should be at least a warning sentence on every packet of cigarettes that is sold, I would feel that the time of the hon. House had not been wasted.

Part 2 of my motion refers to the increasing dependency on drugs and to the question as to how it should be dealt with. I believe that during this Session we have had a very full discussion on the question of drugs under the Medical, Dental and Pharmacy Amendment Bill. I am very happy to know that control will soon be on the Statute Book which will help the police in dealing with the illegal possession of drugs. I want to pay a very sincere tribute to our Police Force. I know that they are doing magnificent work in the control and illegal use of drugs. I want to make a suggestion that there could be closer liaison between the police and professional organizations such as the medical and pharmaceutical associations which are all situated throughout the country. The police could obtain expert assistance and advice from these bodies who I know would be only too pleased to give it. I think it is very encouraging to realize that there is an increasing public awareness of this problem of drug dependency and that many municipal authorities, mayors and other responsible individuals, are taking a lead in establishing bodies which at least can discuss this matter to see what can be done. I know that organizations such as Lifeline and Alcoholics Anonymous have been established. I suggest that the time could well be right for the establishment of an organization known as Drugs Anonymous to help these poor, stricken people. I hope, too, that as these bodies develop, the Treasury of our Government will be generous and that if these bodies need financial assistance and encouragement, it will be forthcoming with the minimum delay.

The question of excessive noise also forms the subject of my motion. My hon. colleague from Orange Grove will deal with this in greater detail. I merely want to, as a chemist and druggist, express my feelings and concern as to the effect that noises have on people. Anyone who lives in a large city to-day and anyone who comes into contact with people as I do in my pharmacy, will appreciate the problem that noise constitutes in the day-to-day living of people in a large city. I am very concerned about the number of ordinary people who come to my pharmacy and ask me to please give them something to help them to sleep at night, because they cannot stand the noise any longer. They complain that they cannot fall asleep and when they eventually do fall asleep they are disturbed by some noise with the result that they wake up the next morning not fit for their daily work. This is a genuine demand by people who are concerned because they cannot have the sleep which nature ordains that they should have. I believe here, too, that the time has come to investigate the effect of noise on the human population and to see whether there are means that can be taken to eliminate noise wherever possible or to soften its effects where it is likely to upset the health of our people. I believe that all these factors merit some form of investigation. I hope that through this discussion we will be told to-day that there is a sympathetic feeling on the part of the hon. the Minister who will be dealing with this motion.

Mr. Speaker, in my speech I find myself in the fortunate position of calmly being able to concur with, and to supplement, remarks made about this matter. In all earnestness the hon. member for Berea pointed out to us the evils and harm which result from the misuse of drugs. One wonders what kind of creature, in this atmosphere, would want to get up here to-day and, as a disturber of the peace, launch an assault on the Government about its miserable policy and neglect in connection with the prevention, instruction and therapy in respect of unfortunate victims who have fallen prey to drugs. In thus looking around me the question arises, what is the resemblance between a Sunday Service and a Friday afternoon debate where a private motion about drugs is being discussed? The reply is that the audience does not turn up because it is afraid of the truth. All the same, I want to say that it appears to me as if there are not many people in the House of Assembly who are afraid. One can always think of the international entertainment programme in the superlative, especially if it is coupled with drugs, and if the entertainment is coupled with adventure, sensuality, illegality, impropriety and the undermining of health, the estimates quickly assume unsurpassable proportions.

Mr. Speaker, although we discussed the use of dagga last year in very great detail, you must permit me to say, since the hon. Speaker who preceded me pointed to the expenditure on alcoholic beverages, that dagga costs R32,000 a ton, that is to say R16 a pound. Supply and demand can increase the price to 50 cents for a single dagga cigarette.

The dagga and alcoholism evils do not differ, because the turnover in the dagga trade amounts to R100 million a year. As far as turnover is concerned, the dagga industry is regarded as the seventh largest industry. One wonders whether this is perhaps also attributable to the fact that the participants in this industry and this evil are mostly to be found in the lower stratum of the population. It is a fact that, although South Africa prohibited the smoking of dagga for the first time in 1928, its use was none the less encouraged among Bantu mine workers at an earlier stage. Its use was encouraged among them because —just imagine, Mr. Speaker!—it would lead to increased productivity. I have come to the conclusion that money can do a great deal of harm, although it is also capable of doing a great deal of good. But I have also come to the conclusion that the lust for money can do no good and knows no good. The lust for money remains plainly and simply a curse. These drugs display a marked similarity to Communism, because both always strike at the degenerate and the desperate. It is a fact that a lack of research leaves room for a difference of opinion about the long-term effects of, for example, the smoking of dagga on the victims. We usually remain dependent upon the much appreciated opinions and experiences of our senior police officers who are engaged in exterminating the dagga plant, while society concerns itself too little with the victims. There is a vague realization of lost man-hours, mental disturbance, physical degeneration, crime, etc., but not enough by far. I want to make the bold statement that the use of drugs, terrorism, student unrest, strikes, truancy and sabotage are all the elder or younger brothers and sisters of the same family. It is a half-truth to say that the basic cause of the use of drugs is boredom, and equally that its only aim is escapism, but you know that a half-truth is doubly wrong. I shall now add the other half of the truth by suggesting that the basic cause is also to be found in obedience to the promptings of Satan and that the aim is to seek unmerited publicity. The evil-complex can be traced back to the great falsehood which made the Fallen Angel the father of all lies. I am referring to the lie of all lies, partake of the fruits of this tree and you shall be equal to God. I make no apology for saying these things. I am saying them in deadly earnest. The world is partaking of forbidden fruit, because it wants to be the bearer of its own authority, its own lawmaker, its own arbiter, its own guide, its own defender, its own apologist, its own judge. In short, it wants to be its own God. No power above it, outside it, under it, all power in it, from it, unto itself. Student unrest. It is tragic that the drug addict knowingly and wilfully breaks down the resistance which his body itself builds up, by taking more and more of it. He breaks through the protective wall of immunity by neutralizing growing resistance with increasing abandonment. He opposes his friend and deliverer and makes common cause with his enemy, thus bringing about his own ruin and spiritual and physical degeneration. Can you believe, Sir, that one can enter into an alliance with the Devil against one’s own person? Alcohol. Transgressors have been sentenced for 13 or more different offences in connection with alcohol. I go back to 1951 in order to show you how we arrive at the conclusion. The number of convictions was then 264,336. As far back as 1952 a slavish consumer of alcohol drank 90 bottles a month, and if he merely partakes of the cheap kind it costs him R120. As far back as 1952 the State received R22,844,414 in excise duties on alcohol. Modern psychology gives the following reasons for the abuse of liquor, in ascending order of importance. It is the convention and the habit and it is fear of the inferiority complex, it is craving for excitement, a search for relaxation, a desire to win social esteem, pleasure and escapism. And what are the consequences? They have been mentioned and are all too well known; drunkenness, assault, broken homes, child neglect, cruelty, divorce, poor health, imcompetence, mental derangement, accidents, unemployment, time wasting, squandering of money, wastage of food, the erosion of our police activities since they must use their time to control these people, the erosion of our hospital services which can provide better health services than having to admit these unfortunate victims, but this must take place because we cannot discard them. The law? Therapy by legislation will make little progress, it seems to me. Listen to pronouncements from “A South African Study of the Alcohol Question” by Dr. Simpson Wells, as far back as 1930. He stated, inter alia, that—

In 1944 at Worcester Justice Jones already stated—

And in 1952 Professor A. I. Pretorius said before a Select Committee that—

In the British Parliament in the fifties Lord Randolph Churchill had the following to say—

Now we come to control. There is the curtailment of licences. America, for example, relinquished prohibition, but 20 per cent of the population live in areas where local choice prevails in connection with the issuing of licences and the finding is that in heavily licensed areas—and this is of great importance—there is one case of drunkenness out of every 72 residents. But where licences are thinly scattered, there is one case of drunkenness out of every 1,054 residents in that area.

Fish Hoek in the Cape Peninsula has a unique history. When, in olden times, the land was promised to a certain Andries Bruyns, Lord Charles Somerset provided “that no wine shop should ever be established on the property”. I do not know what the case is to-day. It is said that peddling is the consequence. And what did police sergeant Van Tonder say in the early fifties to Fish Hoek’s town clerk, Mr. A. B. M. Wright? Fish Hoek has the lowest crime figure in the entire Peninsula. Sir, the same also applies to Great Brak River. In the early fifties Dr. Wells also wrote, inter alia—

Then I come to education. I know of no other single act of volition on the part of man whereby so many millions are squandered, bringing misery and grief to so many millions. And if this is so, I ask: Can man be educated against the excessive use of drugs in his later life? And if this is the case, I ask in addition: Is this possible if enticing and challenging opportunities for drinking tempt him from around every corner? Is it possible if smuggling drags him along mercilessly and often causes him to end up in the vortex of the contraband trade where he earns a salary which he would never obtain by working out in the sunlight. Is it possible, Sir, if advertisements costing millions and millions of rands sing out and entice him in every step he takes? Is it possible if social opportunities for drinking, which can become objectionable, are sanctioned under his very eyes by adults? Is it possible if street-front pubs are crawling with boozers whose irritating carousing rends the air into the late hours of the night and no one can sleep? Sir, is it possible if the wives and children of drink-sodden Bacchanalian demons sit at home every night in humiliation and wait for them to turn up? Is it possible if their vile language wafts down the street for the ears of White and non-White children, adolescents and adults? Show me an animal, no show me a monster, with which a brutalized human being can be compared, brutalized as a result of not knowing what he is doing because he has become a poor, unfortunate slave to drugs. Sir, to combat this we have that triangle, i.e. the church, the home and the school. They form a triangular source of strength and education is their task: The home, the church and the school. Mr. Justice Ramsbottom stated—

Noah, the righteous, was not to die in the flood waters. Who still remembers something of him, except that he sailed in the ark and landed on Arrarat, that shortly afterwards he lay drunk and brought shame upon his house? And to-day? Precisely the same, what I want to call the Noachian drink, drunkenness and shame pattern. We can only fall back upon the old methods in endeavouring to save the situation. Firstly, merciless action against smuggling; secondly, harness the triangular source of strength—the home, the church and the school—as a preventative measure; thirdly, provide rehabilitation centres; and, fourthly, however hackneyed it may sound, meet these people in their urge to escape and save them.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

Mr. Speaker, the question of noise is serious. It has bad effects on health almost to the same extent as the abuse of tobacco and alcohol. It has received less attention from the Government than any of these other abuses. Recently a Bill was passed concerning rehabilitation centres for the alcoholics. This House in the course of the last two weeks also passed a Bill concerned with the trading in drugs. Cigarettes have been left alone for the moment. But the question of noise has never been given the prominence which I think it deserves. We must first try to define “noise”. It is merely sound produced by movement of air, so that it makes an impact upon the human ear. We are only concerned with the human ear at the moment, which is offended by the noise, or sound, or air movement, which has become prevalent in the country. Now we must ask ourselves why we are concerned about noise. This concern is a comparatively recent phenomenon. We did not hear about it 40 or 50 years ago, whereas if we look back in history we will find that the older European nations were concerned about noise long before that time. As soon as a conglomeration of human beings came about and created large cities, the question of various noises came into prominence. If we look back, we would find that countries like France and Britain have passed legislation concerning the relationships between neighbours. In these countries there was no need to pass laws when the wireless was invented, nor to pass legislation when people had a brass band and gave a dance at their house or residence. All these problems have been quietly solved by the various countries themselves. As neighbours began to live closer together and increased, so one finds that the various civilized countries began to take action. They had to settle the problem of how much notice one is allowed to make before one’s neighbour has reasonable grounds for complaint. This is a question of civilization. It has come to the fore here because the cities have become larger. Traffic which formerly consisted of an iron tyred vehicle rattling over the cobbles once in a while, is now a roar in which, in actual fact, one cannot separate any individual noise. It includes the hooting of motor cars and motor cycles. One of the worst people in the world, I should think, for personal discipline would be the average Frenchman.

What about the backbenchers in the kitchen?

Well, they too. A few years ago the Prefect of Police in Paris ordered no hooting at night. Everybody said that they would never do it, but they accepted it and it is an offence in Paris to hoot after dark. The result is that there is little hooting in France to-day, in the cities anyhow. They have become used to it, but one does not find that here. There is no restriction on hooting noise.

I lived in a pleasant home in Durban. It was a house from which one could see neither the road in front nor the road behind. My house was not unique in this respect. The whole of Musgrave Road in Durban was like that. There were few flats. Everybody had large gardens and it was a pleasant area in which to live. My nearest neighbour decided to put his house on the boundary next to me. I was delighted. One could not have a better neighbour. He put the kitchen on that boundary. But he had the misfortune to die. The house which he had built and which was so quiet, was bought and converted into a hotel. The manager of this hotel decided that he would increase his income by giving dances. If anybody here has ever lived near a hotel which gives dances, and had the kitchen on his boundary, they will understand with what one has to cope. First of all, one has to put up with the music, which is reasonable. I do not object to that. But then the dance comes to an end. On Saturday nights they have to end at 12 o’clock. On the other nights they may continue. Saturday night is a nightmare. After the dance has ceased, the women go into what is known as a toilet room. There the young girls get together. Their escorts go outside and rev up their motorbikes. They collect at the doors which lead to the toilet room. They start by hooting, perhaps a little gently. Then end by standing on their hooters. They rev their motorbikes occasionally, just to make sure that they are still running. Ultimately, the women come out, chattering and gabbling. The hooting stops and one thinks that all is well. At last, one can turn over and go to sleep. But one is wrong. At this stage, the waiters commence to empty the dining room, to take the empties into the pantry, or wherever they store their supplies. The hon. the Minister would know that licensed hotels have two doors from the dining room into the kitchen. In the case of this particular hotel, neither of them has a latch, but both have springs. So the waiter leaving the dining room pushes a door and slams the door “bang” behind him. The waiter going in the other direction does the same thing with the door which swings in the opposite direction, but the sound goes in all directions. This goes on for roughly an hour after the dance is over. All the time it goes “bang, bang, bang”! When they come to the time when there are no more dishes to be moved, one thinks that now is the time for a little sleep. No, one is wrong. The beer and mineral water suppliers will come early the next morning, or, in fact, the same morning to collect the empties. The empties must be put into little boxes. The result is again “bang, bang, bang”! That goes on for a full hour. One can do nothing about the situation. The amenities at one’s house have been destroyed by this habit of one’s neighbour. It is a fine residential area, one of the best residential areas in the country. I want the hon. the Minister to bear that in mind. There should be rules laid down by which persons must consider their neighbours. It is made worse by wirelesses and all the noises of modern society. In our law no account is taken of this noise. We must take account of it because, as the hon. member for Berea has said, few people to-day can have a quiet night at home. They can habituate themselves to the roar of traffic, because it is a continuous roar.

At one time, when I was a student, I lived at the terminus of a tramway. This was a curious sort of tramway. Edinburgh is a town with beautiful streets. They do not want to have overhead tram cables, so they have what is known as a “trolley system”. The ropes that pull the tram are underground. This system is at the moment disappearing in Great Britain, but it still exists in San Francisco. As a student, the noise made by the trams did not wake us up. We were used to this roar. It was a terrible noise, but when it stopped, it woke us up, so we could not get a decent night’s rest anyhow. We realize that life should be possible without unnecessary noise. The unnecessary noise to which I particularly refer is that caused by the builder. The builder is a pest, and in particular the builder of a tall building or one in a town, where the water level is about two inches from the surface, like in Durban. They are now erecting these large buildings. They are driving piles night and day. In order to do so they use unsilenced compressors. In an office, or a business, with outside the window an unsilenced compressor and a pile driver one soon learns what noise is. The Concorde is the only thing that will exceed it.

Mr. Speaker, I am taking part in this debate this afternoon mainly for two reasons. The first reason is of course that I am particularly interested in this subject, and the second is that it affords me the opportunity to make my maiden speech. I hope that before we take a closer look at this motion, the mover of the motion will permit me to mention a few other matters. In the first place I bring good tidings from Newcastle. During the past few years we in Newcastle have experienced unparalleled development in both the economic and the industrial field. I think this fact places me in a special position this afternoon to make a contribution to this specific motion, because the matters that emerge from this motion may apply in that vicinity as well. The rate of development we have maintained during the past few years is probably unparalleled in the history of South Africa. We have developed at a rate of approximately 14 per cent per annum. Great progress has also been made in the agricultural field, although certain of the small farmers have begun to experience difficulties. The reasons for that are of such a nature that I shall not discuss them here this afternoon.

Let us take a look at this motion now. My concern is more with the abuse of tobacco and alcohol and other things then merely with their use, as stated in the motion. As regards item (3) of this motion I think the point at issue is more the possible detrimental effect of excessive noise. The factors that usually give rise to the abuse of alcohol in particular are normally found in an area where rapid development is taking place or where the normal order of things is disturbed. These are the factors which in the first place promote the abuse of these things. Let us look at this problem for a moment, especially with reference to my town and constituency, Newcastle. As I have said, we have had this unparalleled development there. We have had an unparalleled influx of people there, which has given rise to all kinds of factors. One may ask why this place has made such progress. I want to mention a few reasons before we proceed with this discussion. Of course, we form part of the Tugela Basin, as described in the report of Thorrington-Smith, “A Plan for the Development of the Tugela Basin”. We have sufficient level land, something which is very rare in Natal. We have water in abundance. We have the Buffalo River there with a potential of 185 million gallons per day. We have the Chelmsford Dam there, thanks to the timeous planning of the Government. At this stage the dam still has surplus water. We have, of course, the great coal industry at Newcastle. We have no fewer than six or seven large coal and coke mines. Thanks to the Government’s policy of separate development we have, with the development of Madadeni and Oxizweni and other Bantu townships and areas, the largest labour potential in this country. The development that has taken place there, with the influx of people there, has given rise to certain social problems.

I now want to quote a few figures in order to indicate what the rate of development there has been. On 28th February the hon. the Minister of Labour quoted certain figures in this House, to which I shall now refer again. In Dundee the building figure for 1958 was R142,000 and in 1968 it was R.572,000. In Newcastle the figure in 1960 was approximately R150,000, while in 1968 it increased to R3,320.000. These places have therefore experienced phenomenal growth. What has been the result of this? The factors I have mentioned have given rise to housing problems. Perhaps the standard of living of the people there has also increased too rapidly. Sir, you know what a man buys who gets rich too quickly. He buys cigarettes and consumes alcohol, and this actually determines his new way of life. These things as it were have to serve as symbols of his new prosperity. The social problems mentioned in this motion have increased to a large extent. I do not suppose it is necessary for me to mention examples of alcoholism and the abuse of drugs and similar preparations. We see examples of this new cult in our streets. But we took note of these problems and we planned in good time. Through the agency of the Department of National Housing extensive housing projects were tackled there. Publicity campaigns were conducted by the various departments of health as well as the local authority. We tackled town planning on a large scale, which necessarily serves to counteract the social problems. We made use of the Slums Act in order to combat these problems. We undertook intensive planning, and provided inter alia the necessary sports facilities for the people. The old saying “Satan finds some mischief still for idle hands to do” remains true to this day.

I should now like to make a few observations on the various aspects of this motion. Firstly I want to refer to alcohol. The problem of alcoholism probably is as old as man himself. No subject has been more thoroughly investigated or discussed. Up to the present no real solution to this problem has been found, although certain scientific recommendations have been made. There are, however, a few facts in regard to alcoholism, and it is as well that we take note of them. This matter is not in the first place a moral problem only. It is a moral problem too, but in actual fact it is pre-eminently a psychiatric problem. It is a disease. We must consider it as such in giving it out sympathetic consideration. This phenomenon strongly manifests itself in times of social disorder. This has been proved over and over again by numerous examples. We think of the rapid industrial development. We think of the abuse of alcohol in times of war. We think of the use of alcohol during times of stress. The use of alcohol also increases with an increase in people’s standard of living. A great deal of important research has been done on this aspect. We are aware of the detrimental effects of alcohol. We know that it has certain organic and mental effects. The psyche of man is affected. There are also other aspects of alcohol we must take into account, and these are the beneficial qualities of alcohol. We should not lose sight of these qualities completely. Alcohol is a food, because it is a very important source of calories. Alcohol is also an aperitif. In that respect it has many beneficial effects. I think the well-known initial stimulating effect alcohol has contributes much to the quality of some speeches that are made. There is one fact which is as plain as a pikestaff, however, and that is that no restrictive measure has ever brought anybody any closer to a solution to the problem of alcoholism.

The observations I want to make in respect of tobacco are to a large extent the same as those I have made in respect of alcohol. We are thoroughly aware of the detrimental effects of tobacco. We know that it may cause chronic bronchitis, emphysema, and probably lung cancer as well. As a matter of interest I want to mention that the incidence of lung cancer in the case of pipe and cigar smokers is little higher than in the case of non-smokers. The statistics would seem to indicate, however, that it is substantially higher in the case of cigarette smokers. There are still so many unknown factors or carcinogens, however, that one cannot be dogmatic about this matter. This question still has to be investigated very thoroughly. This is the task of the scientists. Therefore we must continue our research. We must wait until there is certainty about this matter before we try to find a solution to the problem, because no statement can be proved scientifically on the basis of statistics alone.

I would not like to discuss the matter of drugs. This matter was discussed very thoroughly in this House in the course of the debates of the past week or two. We also know that this matter is being very carefully controlled and handled by the hon. the Minister of Health, and that it is at present under discussion in the Other Place. I therefore want to say that I am not going to express any opinion on this matter at this stage. In any event, it does not fall in quite the same category as alcohol and tobacco. Let us just consider what the solution to this problem is. Do we find the solution in restrictive measures such as were mentioned here this morning? I just want to say that the best practical example we have in history in respect of restrictive measures is what happened in America at the time of its prohibition on alcohol. It is said that after that prohibition was applied the use of alcohol increased enormously. The mover of this motion said this morning that in certain states of America it is provided by law that there must be a warning on each packet of cigarettes that it was a dangerous substance. I just want to say that this has had no effect whatsoever on the sale of tobacco or cigarettes in that country. In Italy tobacco advertisements are totally prohibited. This prohibition has been in force for several years, without there being any decrease in or any appreciable effect on the sale of tobacco. We must seek the solution in education, in our universities, in our schools and in all the various educational media. We must look for the solution in the upliftment of our people, but I think the real answer is that we should find the solution by the cultivation of self-discipline. The State is already doing a tremendous amount towards the solution of these problems; there are the financial contributions to universities and various institutions, inter-departmental investigations are conducted in this connection, and there are facilities as provided by the Mental Disorders Act, just to mention a few.

Before concluding I also want to make a few remarks in connection with the question of noise. It is a good thing that we are aware of this particular problem, but I think that if we want to discuss this matter profitably we must confine ourselves in the first place to industrial noise. We must confine ourselves to industrial noise, because it definitely presents dangers. City noise does affect one’s nerves, but industrial noise definitely presents mental and other dangers, such as impairment of the sense of hearing and so forth. That is why the Government provided that this matter should be properly investigated by means of research by the C.S.I.R. and the South African Bureau of Standards. In 1962 a practical code for the combating of excessive noise was adopted. This code was drawn up by the Bereau of Standards. In 1966 the Minister of Planning appointed an auxiliary committee which investigated the noises made by aircraft at various airports. In 1967 the Johannesburg City Council issued certain instructions in connection with sound research. Recently, in 1969, the Steering Committee on Accoustics and the Combating of Noise held their first meeting. Mr. Speaker, you can see that this Government has for many years been aware of the problems involved in this matter. Thorough research is being conducted, and the matter is being properly investigated.

In conclusion I want to try to summarize the matter by saying that in these modern times of so-called freedoms we must look for the answer in the first place in education and in the cultivation of self-discipline, because unrestricted and undisciplined freedom is no freedom. We must lead our people back to their churches; we must lead our people back to the Altar and we must lead them back to our proven Afrikaner principles. In this modern age we need maturity and knowledge, because restrictive control measures alone will never solve this matter. We are grateful to know that this Government is also doing its share in this important matter.

Mr. Speaker, we have listened attentively to the maiden speech of the hon. member for Newcastle and we all will want to congratulate him on having surmounted the first hurdle of his Parliamentary career. He is the son of a distinguished and well-respected ex-member of this House. In his father he had an excellent example, which I am sure he will live up to. In passing I just want to say that he mentioned that he was bringing good news to the House from Newcastle; we thank him for it.

I am really glad that we have this motion before the House to-day. I only wish to deal with the latter part of it, namely noise and noise prevention in South Africa. In the past I have had private motions on this matter on the Order Paper, but unfortunately they could not be discussed and therefore, I am glad to have the opportunity this afternoon of speaking to this motion.

The problem of noise is a serious one. It is one caused by our modern industrial society, by the technological advances during the past decades and by the population explosion. One might almost call it these days a plague of decibels caused by the rising tide of the clatters and the bangs and the whistles and the clangs and the thumps that one hears in our modern society. The symptoms of this industrial disease, as one might almost call it, are serious. The effects of noise are not only of an annoying nature—I am not trying to pun—but they are indeed of a health nature, and excessive noise is indeed a health hazard. As a matter of fact, it has been estimated that the loss of hearing is five times greater to-day in a heavy industrial area than it is, say, in a country area or a quiet area. In America it has been estimated that if a 10 per cent loss of hearing were to be compensable in the case of people between the ages of 50 and 60 years, it would cost the American people and Government no less than R700 million a year. This gives an indication of how serious a health hazard noise is. Laboratory animals have been subjected to excessive noise, and there have been definite indications of change of brain structure, of liver, blood and enlarged hearts, and even of increasing blood cholesterol. All this was the result of noise.

In South Africa some brilliant work has been done in investigating this problem of noise. I think the S.A. Bureau of Standards has to be congratulated on the excellent work they have done in this respect. It has been estimated by Mr. Meij, the head of the division doing this research, that in no less than half of the 17,000 factories in South Africa the workers are exposed to excessive noise; they are exposed to a health hazard. It is indeed a health hazard throughout South Africa and particularly in our large centres. It is caused by many factors obvious to us. Traffic is a major factor. We have heavy duty vehicles. Scientific tests have shown that if you have a heavy lorry going up a hill with a defective exhaust, it makes a noise equivalent to that caused by 100 ordinary motor-cars. One finds special exhaust devices attached to their vehicles by young people which also cause excessive noise. There are buzz bikes and the needless revving of engines and the needless blowing of hooters. A bus stopping on a hill and starting with a long trail of cars behind it creates excessive noise, above the danger line of 80 decibels.

Then there are industrial noises and the noises associated with construction work. I am sure my hon. friends who represent Johannesburg constituencies will know all about construction work in that area and the noise caused by it. Pneumatic drills and rivetters and other construction tools create a din, day and night, in our cities. You find noise in the newspaper plants, and you find it in the mines where there are explosions and drills. You find it also in railway workshops, and particularly do you find it at airports, where the new jets will be coming soon. This will be one of the great problems of the next decade.

I see the hon. the Minister of Post and Telegraphs is here, and although we have ceased our discussions I might mention in passing an example of excessive noise in Johannesburg to-day. In Hillbrow you have one of the most densely populated areas in the whole of the world and in that area a huge tower is being erected. They are building this tower day and night, and it is causing excessive noise and a vast amount of dissatisfaction amongst the people living around that tower. Indeed, it is an ugly concrete monstrosity roaring and belching sparks day and night which cause a lot of inconvenience. It is one of the noisiest constructions ever undertaken in this country. It is hurling its detritus over all the motor-cars in the vicinity and on buildings. It is one of the biggest nuisances, in fact so big a nuisance that I think the hon. the Minister of Justice might be asked to investigate it. It is a very serious matter.

The future will also bring difficulties. The age of the jumbo jets is upon as and soon we will have the supersonic planes. These planes can cause a supersonic bang which can be heard for over 80 miles. It can have deleterious effect on health. In fact, it has been estimated that the supersonic Concord has the power of all the ships that leave a harbour such as Southampton in a whole week. That indicates the amount of noise that can be generated by such a plane. In South Africa, I am glad to say, investigations have been made on quite a considerable scale into this trouble of noise. We have the department of acoustics of the C.S.I.R. and we have the Mechanical Research Institute working on noise and investigating how it can be countered. We have had an important inter-departmental committee for the abatement of noise at airports under Mr. J. J. van Tonder, which was appointed either by the Minister of Planning or by the Minister of Economic Affairs. The Department of Labour has, I think, classified hearing loss as a compensable industrial affliction and, as I say, the Bureau of Standards has done brilliant work in regard to the matter. We have sent delegates to international conferences in Scandinavia on noise and we attended a conference in Copenhagen some years ago. The Bureau of Standards has done some practical work and it has drawn up an industrial noise code in 1962, a vehicle noise code in 1965 and a disturbance code in 1967. We have, therefore, got the facts on which some real practical steps can be taken to combat this nuisance.

I believe that the remedies have been delayed a bit too long. Certain municipalities have tried to act in regard to excessive noise. The Johannesburg Municipality is one, but they found that to a certain extent, although they have powers under the by-laws, they are hampered by the fact that certain enabling legislation is necessary from the side of the province and also from the side of Parliament itself. That has been the experience of some of the other big cities in our country, too, and this, I think, is where our duty lies, to determine how soon we should introduce legislation to combat this dangerous health hazard. I do not want to say how it should be done. There might be a select committee appointed to investigate the matter or we might have immediate legislation.

Overseas many countries are ahead of us in this respect. In Britain they have a very lengthy report on noise, a huge book, which came out in 1963, and since then they have been acting very actively in respect of this matter. In the U.S.A. many city ordinances and even state laws have been passed in regard to noise. I am personally interested in this matter and I have had a great deal of interesting correspondence with a Congressman from New York. He represents the 17th Congressional District in New York. We have had correspondence in regard to this matter of noise, and he has sent me copies of his speeches and also of a Bill he intends introducing in the U.S. Congress, and he wishes us luck with similar efforts of ours in South Africa. But the most important thing is to have legislative enactments in regard to this matter.

More important even than this are the practical steps that could be taken immediately. I believe that in all our cities the traffic police could do more in regard to stopping traffic noises. I believe that demolition workers should be curbed if their work causes excessive noise. In New York, I have been told, you are not allowed to use an air compressor or a pneumatic drill between the hours of 8 p.m. and 7 a.m. These things can, I believe, be prevented under by-laws. I believe that where cars are regularly tested, as they are for roadworthy certificates, it should not be too difficult to have a decibel counter to judge whether the noise made by such a car is excessive or not. I believe that is being done in West Germany. I also believe that there should be a ban on transistor radios in public, on trains and on buses. I do not wish to ban them altogether. I have no objection to somebody taking a transistor radio with him on to the beach if it has earphones. That would be practicable. A great deal can also be done now in regard to the effective planning of residential areas. Residential areas at the moment are growing like mushrooms near to the large airports and we will create a big problem for ourselves in future if we allow them to grow unplanned as they are growing to-day. In fact, I think in Cape Town it is estimated that in more than half of the new townships planned in the vicinity of the D. F. Malan Airport, the noise problem will become dangerous within the next 10 years, and it has been proved that even now the noise from jets is excessive in those areas. One can well imagine the greater problems we will have at Jan Smuts Airport in Johannesburg and at the airports in Durban and Bloemfontein.

I do not wish to pursue this matter further. I have made a few points which I hope will be noticed by the hon. the Minister and particularly the Minister of Health, who for good reasons is not able to be here this afternoon, to show how serious this matter is and how we believe that steps are urgently necessary. I believe that a lead can and should be given by this Parliament and the Government, and that we dare not delay any longer in dealing with this matter.

I find myself in a rather difficult position this afternoon. I was supposed to take the place of the hon. the Minister of Health in order to listen to the debate and convey the contents to him. But now the debate has taken such a turn that I am obliged to participate in it. I want to tell the hon. member for Berea that I find it a pity that his motion was framed in this way, i.e. so that it does in actual fact affect more than one Minister. I think that the Minister of Agriculture is affected, and so is the Minister of Health, as well as the Minister of Social Welfare, and as a result of the turn the debate took right at the beginning in regard to alcohol, my Department is affected, too. It would have been better to have done the same thing the hon. member did last year when he introduced a motion on dagga, when he isolated it so that we could discuss it properly.

I do not want to express views on the question of drugs, nor do I want to express views on the question of noise, or even on the question of the detrimental uses and effects of tobacco, but I do want to say a few words on the question of the consumption of alcohol, for as the Minister of Justice I am to a certain extent involved in it. This motion asks for an investigation to be made into the consumption of liquor with a view to the detrimental effects it may have on the health and well-being of the present and future population. Recently I also received a request from the welfare organizations, from the temperance society and from various church organizations for an inquiry to be made into the detrimental effects of the consumption of liquor. I gave very, very serious consideration to whether such an inquiry should be made; I think they requested a judicial inquiry, but eventually I arrived at the conclusion that it was not necessary for us to investigate the matter. Everybody knows exactly how detrimental it is and what the effects of excessive drinking are.

But we do not listen.

Of course, whether people take this to heart is something else again. I want to congratulate the hon. member for Newcastle on having pointed out that the moderate use of liquor could also have beneficial effects. However, the difficulty lies in the abuse of liquor. The Liquor Act, which I administer, provides that I shall exercise control over the distribution of liquor. However, I do not have any control over the production of liquor. That is a matter for the Minister of Agriculture. We must remember that South Africa is a wine producing, a liquor producing country. We have a huge industry which has been built up around it. Of course, the people who produce liquor want to sell their liquor. The same applies to tobacco; the people who produce tobacco, want to sell their tobacco. In exercising control one must try to see to it that one eliminates the detrimental effects of the consumption of liquor. One can, of course, control it in various ways. The first way is to prohibit it entirely. The most desirable form of control would be to prohibit the use of liquor entirely. We all realize fully that it would be of no avail to prohibit the use of liquor. Prohibition in America taught us that it would be of no avail to prohibit the use of liquor, for if that were done people would only drink more; they would go on distilling liquor, even if they eventually had to distil it from a piece of wood. Therefore, there will always be liquor and people I will always drink liquor. What is the next thing one could do? One could try to curtail licences. I see the hon. member for Durban (Berea) nodding his head; he says that is the right thing. But experience has also shown that the number of licences granted makes very little difference when it comes to the quantity of liquor consumed.

All that happens is that fewer people get rich.

Yes, all that happens is that fewer people get rich. People who want to buy liquor will do so. The next thing one could do is to throw the liquor trade wide open, but in the established liquor trade and the industry which has developed out of it there is not a single person who would tell one that the liquor trade should be thrown wide open. Therefore one cannot do this either. One should try to preserve the balance between the producer, the wholesale liquor dealer, the retail liquor dealer, the hotel-owner and the needs of the public. I can tell you, Sir, that it is not so easy to preserve that balance. And then one must, on the other hand, take the churches into account; one must take the temperance society into account; one must take the welfare organizations into account, and I am sure that nobody will envy the Minister of Justice that task which rests on his shoulders. But I want to add this: From my experience I am profoundly convinced that our welfare organizations and our churches and our temperance societies are waging an uneven struggle. The hon. member pointed out that millions were invested in the liquor trade, whereas these people did not have at their disposal the necessary means for combating the evils of excessive drinking. Of course, this evil may to a certain extent be combated by a Christian upbringing at home, where the evil of excessive drinking is pointed out, but I am afraid that the churches and the temperance societies and the welfare organizations are waging an absolutely uneven struggle. When everybody has had his share, these organizations are saddled with the wrecks. I feel that there is something lacking in this respect. What the solution is, is not clear to me at this stage. Where the money is to come from to enable them to wage this struggle properly, is not clear to me either. I am thinking along certain lines, but it is still not quite clear to me what should be done. What is in fact clear to me, is that they should in fact be enabled to wage this uneven struggle which they are waging at the moment, in a more effective manner

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to tell you what is happening in this country, what is happening in the Western Province to our Coloured population and what is happening to families that are being neglected. This is not something new to us; there is no need for me to have it investigated. I think we all know what the position is. One of the methods the hon. member mentioned, was that we should combat advertisements for liquor. That is not always such an easy thing to do. One would like to learn from the experience of other countries, of other people, and I have ordered an investigation to be made so as to ascertain what is being done in other countries.

We have received reports from roughly 16 different countries: New Zealand, Belgium, the Federal Republic of Germany, Japan, Brazil, Kenya, Australia, Canada, Spain, Austria, the Netherlands, Greece, Switzerland, Italy, France, Sweden and the United States of America. We looked at what they were doing in this regard. They told us what they were doing in their countries, and it appears that out of the 16 there are only four countries where something is really being done about counteracting to a certain extent the publicizing and the attractive display of liquor. These countries are Canada, France, Sweden and the United States of America. At the moment my Department is engaged in studying further the legislation of these countries in this regard, and at this stage I do not wish to elaborate on it any further.

I do not think that I should go into the question of liquor and excessive drinking at this stage. I feel that if I did so, I would be treading on the toes of either our producers, or the distribution trade or our hotel industry, but I repeat that I believe that the welfare organizations and the people who see the other side of the coin, are waging an uneven struggle, and I think it is the task and the duty of the State to do something in this regard. I hope that it will sooner or later be possible for me to introduce a motion which may perhaps facilitate this task for them.

I welcome the hon. the Minister’s indication that he is investigating what is going on in other countries in connection with this question. I believe this motion has served a useful purpose in enabling both sides of the House to discuss what is, basically, a great social problem. As the time for the debate on this motion has now lapsed, I wish to withdraw the motion.

With leave, motion withdrawn.