Mr. Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.

I have listened very carefully to the general debate under this Vote up till now, and let me say immediately that I have discovered a new spirit even as regards certain aspects in respect of which we had had criticism from the other side in the past. A new spirit is evident as regards our Coloured population, our brown people in this country. During the past years this Government and this Minister of ours have seen to it that a completely new deal has been brought about as far as our brown people are concerned. Unlike 15 years ago the brown people are no longer a cynical, unprolific power-political factor in the politics of the white man. Prior to that the United Party showed great interest in the brown people, but it was only during elections that the United Party took any notice of these people in order to get them to the polls. Real and true community development for the brown people at present ensures that the old shadowy and ambiguous position of the brown people on the fringes of the white community, is rapidly making way for one of a population group in its own right. Let us no longer have any illusions about this. To me one thing is quite clear. This new deal we have now in respect of our brown people, a new deal in the social, political and other spheres, which the National Government has afforded the brown people during the past years, is going to contribute towards an intensified political awareness being awakened among our brown people in the immediate future.

This deal is going to lend a weighty voice and definite personality to our brown people throughout South Africa. The brown set-up or the brown establishment, if I may call it that, will henceforth become a growth point which will have far-reaching implications in the homeland of the white man. I say in the homeland of the white man, because it is axiomatic that once the Government has planted the idea of a separate territorial freedom for the black majority in this country, we are not left with a country in which we as Whites would be able to create our own and only homeland through our own ingenuity alone. On the face of it it would appear as if Whites and brown people are destined to live together in this country for many future generations. This basic truth particularly affects those of us who live here in the Western Cape. It is particularly in this part of our country where we will have to try and find during the coming years with greater wisdom the boundaries which are required for good neighbourliness in our part of the country. Our future, particularly in the Western Cape, remains intensely bound up with that of the brown people. We in the Western Cape cannot wish them away from our back door. In future we shall have to face with the greatest wisdom the complicated tasks of the shaping of a policy and the practical implementation thereof.

It is against this background that I as one who lives in the Western Cape want to ask to-day whether, as regards the future dispensation for our brown people, the time has not come that we should have a Tomlinson Report—if I may call it that—on the new patterns of the future which are developing at present. Should we not utilize the best brain power in our country, as was done in the case of the Tomlinson Commission at that time, to consider afresh the whole situation in which we are finding ourselves? When saying this, I do not mean that this should, in the first place, deal with the political dispensation with which a start was recently made as far as the Coloureds are concerned; there are other factors on the present level of our existence and on that of the brown people which I believe it is time to reconsider basically and anew.

I just want to mention two of these in passing. In the first place, we have the process of our brown people becoming blacker, particularly in the Western Cape and, in the second place, the coming into being of a Coloured metropolis on the Cape Flats where literally thousands upon thousands of Coloureds are concentrated within the smaller set-up in the Western Cape. Thousands of single Bantu migrant labourers in the Western Cape are responsible for a process of interbreeding with the Coloureds as a result of which the Coloureds are becoming blacker and blacker, a process the end of which we shall never know. I do not think it is our intention ever to push the brown people over to the side of the black majority in this country. If we were to try to do this, we would have more than a million brown Bantu persons, if I may call them that, among us in the Cape Province alone. I say “among us” because for their aspirations there is no homeland of their own at present. It appears to me to be elementary common sense to lay down the principle that in the great contrast of White and Black at the southern point of Africa, the brown people and the Whites belong to the same side—please note, not in perpetual enmity, but for the sake of the power and balance which are required in practice for the political peace in this country.

Sir, I now come to a second problematical statement. The concentration of the fantastic number of Coloureds, the creation of what is virtually a metropolis for the Coloureds in the Cape Peninsula, is a cause of concern to those of us who live in the Western Cape. The issue at stake here is the enormous concentration of Coloured people particularly on the Cape Flats. Sir, we have here to-day a twilight region of sub-economic housing in which thousands of brown people are being concentrated to an ever-increasing extent. Sir, within one generation and within a radius of approximately 20 miles a mass population of a few million people, less than half of whom will be Whites, will be concentrated in the Cape Peninsula alone. To me it is abundantly clear that we have reached the stage where we will have to consider this situation particularly within the boundaries of our smaller Western Cape. This is a situation which is bound up with many other factors in respect of the development of our future pattern in the smaller Western Cape. I just want to mention three of these: the increased drain on the water potential of our smaller Western Cape; the signs of overconcentration in the Cape Peninsula and, together with that, the creation of new growth points in our smaller Western Cape as a whole —all these things are factors which are bound up with the situation. It is against this background that the thought has occurred to me whether the time has not come that we should consider basically whether new momentum should not be provided particularly in respect of two traditional Coloured townships. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Moorreesburg has come along with the same old story again that the United Party always wants to use the Coloured people for political gain. Of course, we have made use of the Coloured vote, but the old Nationalist Party did the same. There was a time when the Coloured people in this country voted for the Nationalist Party and for the United Party; they did not distinguish between the two parities. I am thinking of the time of Mr. Bruchner de Villiers. In his time many Coloured people voted for the Nationalist Party, but the Nationalist Party lost the Coloured vote because the Party told them: “We are going to take you off the Common Roll.” Surely the Nationalist Party could not expect the Coloured people to continue voting for them after they had told them that, and consequently they voted for the United Party. This is an old story which does not carry any weight in this country any longer. The hon. member should not come along and tell us that the Coloured people have now become politically conscious, because many of them have been fully conscious politically during all these years. Sir, I do not want to go into this matter any further.

The hon. member for Peninsula made a speech here yesterday in which all of us probably showed great interest. He made a serious appeal to the Coloured community to obey the law of the land and to make full use of the Coloured Representative Council. He appealed to them to strengthen, improve and develop themselves. But he also appealed to the white community. He appealed to us to display our goodwill towards the Coloured people and to see to it that they do not drift away from us further or that they do not become more embittered. But the hon. member did not say that the Coloured people should accept the Coloured Representative Council as the end of the road as far as they are concerned. He said the Coloured people should use the Coloured Representative Council to win back the rights they have lost. The hon. member for Westdene, who is not here at the moment, thereupon attacked the hon. member for Karoo because he was supposed to have said that the Coloured people should never be satisfied with this Council. We on this side of the House do not expect the Coloured people to be satisfied with the Coloured Representative Council and with the political rights they receive through that council. Neither can we expect them to be satisfied with that. The Coloured people will not be satisfied with that indefinitely. The conclusion one has to draw from what the hon. member for Westdene has said, is that the Coloured people should now be satisfied with those rights they will receive through the establishment of the so-called Coloured Parliament and that they will receive nothing besides that. One cannot expect them to be satisfied with that indefinitely. The Coloured people will have to develop further, and they will develop further. I feel absolutely certain that the Coloured people will not be satisfied and that they will want further political rights to be given to them in this country.

The hon the Minister was so kind as to invite me to visit the training centre for Coloured cadets. I must say I was very impressed with the work that is being done there. The buildings and the facilities which have been erected and are being provided there, are excellent and I think good work is being done at that training centre. I must say that the officials that are working there—and I am thinking particularly of Colonel Van Dyk who who is in charge of the training centre—intend doing excellent work there. The institution was established only recently, but Colonel Van Dyk is a person who sympathizes with the Coloured people and I am sure he will provide them with the proper training in the right spheres. Of course, I regret that the institution is still such a small one and that it has not developed more, but I take it that this will happen in due course. When I visited the institution recently, there were approximately 200 cadets and I think they were making good progress; at the moment the training is more of a disciplinary nature. Training of this nature will be invaluable to them. We should keep up this good work and develop the institution so that more cadets may be accommodated as soon as possible.

I should like to associate myself with the hon. member for Malmesbury. We do not always see eye to eye, but in this case we do see eye to eye as regards the shortage of schools, particularly in the country areas. The Coloured people in the country areas are also leaving those areas and are moving to the cities. Nobody can blame them if they think that they may improve their position by doing so. However, I am not sure whether they are actually improving their position, because they come to the cities while they are quite unprepared for city life. In many cases their position deteriorates after they have moved to the cities. However, we do not blame them for doing so, but it will be in the interest of many of them if they remain in the country areas. They leave the country areas and move to the cities for several reasons. One of the reasons is that the school facilities for their children in the rural areas are inadequate. Another reason is that they do not have sufficient sports and social facilities in the country areas. Of course, provision is being made for school buildings on farms at present. School buildings are rented after the farmers have erected them. However, not many farmers are in the position where they can afford to erect farm schools and then to let them. They simply do not have the capital. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is possible to provide farmers with loans in cases where they are prepared to build such schools on their farms. I notice that the Department recently informed the Cape Agricultural Union that it would be prepared to erect schools on farms under certain circumstances. But to my mind this will be a very slow and drawn-out process. I may be wrong, but to my mind at least 50 or possibly 60 per cent of the Coloured children in the country areas have never attended school. The schools in the towns are usually overcrowded and accommodation is extremely scarce with the result that there are no boarding facilities for them. The result is that they cannot attend those schools. It is also in the interests of the children that their parents should remain on the farms. For that reason I want to ask that more farm schools be built, whether by assisting the farmers to erect these buildings or through the Department erecting these buildings itself. Bound up with these schools are dwellings for teachers which are absolutely essential. These dwellings have to be built as well. Usually the farmer does not have the capital to build these dwellings. Either the farmer will have to be assisted in this or the Department will have to erect these dwellings itself. I think this matter is being given serious attention in the Department. However, the time has come when more hostels should be built. The Department is actually prepared now to build these hostels at places where there are secondary schools, but no provision is being made for children in primary schools yet. Hostels will probably have to be built for these children as well to see to it that they attend schools in places where they cannot attend farm schools. There are even people who are of the opinion that, if this cannot be done, provision should be made for bus services for children living a short way from the towns in order to take them to the schools in this way. But the problem is that even the schools in the towns are overcrowded at present to the extent where it is impossible for them even to accommodate the Coloureds living in the towns. I ask for more money to be spent on schools. I am speaking particularly of the country areas. This should be done in the cities as well, but I am pleading here to-day particularly for the rural areas. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, during the course of this debate the Opposition to a large extent created the impression that what had been done over the past 20 years was merely destructive. Appreciation is expressed of the fact that—and I am very glad about it—what is taking place now, amounts to a new deal. At the same time however it is being alleged in a negative way that all we had been doing during the past 20 years, was to break down; that everything was simply broken down and that nothing was provided in the place of what had been broken down. I am thinking of what was said about the hon. member for Peninsula. He said very nice things, but he also said something which I simply cannot allow to pass without comment. This was the same spirit which was displayed in other speeches as well. I quote: “They and many of their white friends have urged that they should be considered as part of the white population”. The impression is being created now that, because we had deliberate political segregation, it was one uninterrupted process of breaking down. Hon. members do not keep in mind the positive side of the matter, namely that it has formed part of an absolutely positive policy throughout, and that what is taking place at present is a logical result of a policy which was expounded by the National Party even before 1948 as its accepted policy according to which certain rights in this Parliament would be taken away and be replaced ultimately by political rights elsewhere, namely in the Coloured Representative Council. We have been carrying out this very policy all along up to the present. I want to put it quite clearly now, and I would like the Opposition to tell me whether they find any fault with that, because this is, basically, what we have been doing all along. The white people of South Africa has maintained its identity as a white nation in this country for over 300 years, because it was something sacred and precious as far as the white people was concerned. The Whites were not prepared to sacrifice their white identity. For that reason the Whites were prepared to maintain that identity, in spite of the liberal world opinion, the United Party and the Progressive Party. That was our policy and we have been carrying it out all along. We said that this was the course we followed, and we have been following that course all along. [Interjections.] Wait a minute, I am coming to the point I want to make. We shall never allow it to be watered down or to be sacrificed. That has been our policy and we have proceeded along that road. This is one of the corner-stones on which the National Party has been built and on which it has became the great and powerful party it is to-day. We shall never deviate from that policy and we shall never apologize for it. As a matter of fact, we have nothing for which we have to apologize. Because we appreciate the value of having an identity of one’s own and because we were prepared to make sacrifices to maintain that identity among the other population groups, we were also prepared to pay a considerable price to help the Coloureds to obtain an identity of their own. For that reason we have helped them socially and economically to uplift themselves and become self-dependent, to obtain something of which they themselves can be proud—something which is peculiar to their nation as well as a national identity. That has been our positive policy all along, a policy which is being held up now as having been a terribly negative one over the past 20 years.

It is being alleged that we have only now become converted because we have just started applying a positive policy. What utter nonsense—I almost want to say what rubbish, what unworthy statements in a worthy House such as this. The Government has made available to the Coloured people educational facilities which cannot be compared with what was made available in any other country in Africa. What other country in Africa has provided its Native population with similar educational facilities as have been provided by this Government to the Coloureds in South Africa? We have given them their own university, something to which the Opposition has objected strongly. We have founded their own development corporation not only to help them financially, but also to teach them to develop their own economy and in this way to develop something which they can be proud of. It has therefore been a positive policy all along. We have also educated them politically by establishing boards for them in which they could learn from experience the practices of government. In view of all these things one sometimes becomes a bit tired of hearing all the time that we have only broken down these people, as though we have not also taught them to be attached to the land, as though we have told them that they are a loose element hanging in the air and that we want nothing to do with them. Have we not given these people the opportunity of becoming attached to the land in their own group areas? Have we not created for them all possible facilities to develop economically? Have we not provided them with all the educational facilities which I have mentioned a moment ago? We have done all these things for them, and hon. members opposite should admit it. But this is not all. Have we not given the Coloureds their own rural areas and have we not assisted them in developing those areas? Have we not provided them with extension officers? Sir, I should very much like to invite these people who are talking a different language to my constituency to see what is being done in the areas of Steinkopf, Concordia, the Richtersveld, Komaggas, Lelie-fontein and other areas. Those areas have all been planned. Some of our best extension officers have been made available to them and we have helped them to improve their farming methods. While it has hurt one in the past to see the condition of the animals of these people, we have helped them by means of extension officers and economic assistance provided by the Department, to breed decent animals. A few years ago it was not worth their while to allow the small number of cattle they had to graze on the land. But the quality of these cattle has been improved in the meantime and they are proud of it now. As a matter of fact, they like to show you these things today. They have achieved an identity and pride of their own. Hon. members will do well to go and look at the white and black sheep they keep in that area; let us go and have a look at their system of fencing off their land in camps and the water that was laid on for them. Sir, we have tried to instil into these people a pride in their land; we have helped them to become attached to the land. In short, we have given them everything possible which is required for them to develop a national identity and national pride of their own. I can honestly say that the Coloured people have responded with pride to all these things; they have accepted these things in a wonderful way and they have made proper use of them, notwithstanding all the allegations we still have to listen to, allegations that they are supposed to be treated in a negative way and that they are being kicked out and pushed away. Of course, we did not want to make them “part of the white population”, and we do not apologize for that. Our policy is a positive one of segregation and sacrifice. The hon. member for Peninsula must admit this, as he has in fact done, although he regarded it as something terrible that we did not want to make them “part of the white population”.

Mr. Chairman, if you would allow me to continue for another couple of minutes, I want to deal with …

You only have half a minute left.

In that case I merely want to associate myself with what was said by the hon. member for Gardens and the hon. member for Malmesbury. We have a serious problem as far as education is concerned. I support the idea of taking the school to the pupil. [Time expired.]

I have no intention of following up the type of comment made by my hon. friend, the member for Namaqualand, because I should like to deal with something quite different. By August arrangements will be made for the first sitting of the new Coloured Representative Council. In terms of a Press release issued by the Minister’s own Department in March, with the establishment of this council the functions of the Department of Coloured Affairs will be transferred to the executive of that council. From then on we shall have two departments. Firstly, an Administration of Coloured Affairs, a department which, I understand, will be linked with the Public Service Commission and whose task it will be to assist the executive committee of the C.R.C. Secondly, we shall have a Department of Coloured Relations, which is to act as a link with the Government and perform the remaining functions of the Department of Coloured Affairs. That is what I understood the position to be.

Let me say, first of all, that we welcome the creation of the Department of Coloured Administration as being a practical means of training the Coloured community in the mechanics and responsibilities of local government and local affairs. This is essential for the proper working of any democratic system anywhere in the world, and it is important that our Coloured people should actively participate in the administrative affairs of the country as a whole. I think it is important that in dealing with the matters which will come before them they will see their activities as part of the administration of the country as a whole and that they are making their contribution to it.

The main functions of the executive committee of the C.R.C., working in conjunction with the Administration of Coloured Affairs, will be finance, education, community welfare, rural areas and local government in Coloured areas, as and when certain functions in this regard are delegated to it by the different provincial administrations. I quote here from the official handout. Could the hon. the Minister tell us to what extent this whole administrative scheme has been thought out in any depth, because it seems to me that there will always be a degree of overlapping in many fields of local government and other matters for the Coloured people. For instance there is the position of local government for them and for other sections of the population. There will be overlapping in a great many fields. Let us take the question of finance and education. Where education is concerned this will presumably cover such matters as the day to day running of the schools, teachers’ appointments, salaries, pensions, leave, study provisions, examinations, both internal and external, the control of hostels, where these exist, and teacher training. They must be interested and at least have some views on that, although they are not to have any say with regard to the University of the Western Cape. There will be the question of the proper election of school committees. I am interested to see from the Department’s report that out of a total of 1,400 State-aided schools only 12 have school committees at the present moment. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us why? They will obviously want to discuss agricultural and technical training. None of this can be handled by them or by anybody else in a kind of Coloured vacuum. After all, the Coloured people are part and parcel of our community. If anybody made that clear this afternoon, it was the hon. member for Moorreesburg. What I should like to know is what link there will be, if any, between the Coloured Council and its Executive Committee and the two departments of Administration and Coloured Relations on the one hand and, for instance, bursaries that are granted and their training necessities which will be met in part by the University College of the Western Cape. We have been told by the hon. the Minister in a previous debate, that they would have no say or representation where this university was concerned. What kind of a link will there be educationally with the Joint Matriculation Board since if they are to deal with education, they will presumably be concerned with educational standards as well? Of course, anything to do with education means that these matters will also have to be considered in terms of ultimate employment at whatever level they happen to consider it. I should like to have the hon. the Minister’s assurance as to where the control of finances will lie. Will this lie with the administrative section as matters are at the moment? No one is educated in a vacuum. That is quite clear. Once trained, most people have to get down to some kind of work. There is bound to be a direct relationship between school leavers and their qualifications on the one hand, with which the Council will presumably be concerned, and the South African labour market on the other hand. Will it be a function of the Coloured Council to discuss these highly relevant matters? I should like to know from the Minister how they can fail to be interested or involved, and whether he, in fact, will encourage them to discuss matters such as guaranteed wage rates, the scope of employment for their people, the nature of jobs open to them, the question of unemployment insurance and workmen’s compensation. One may say that these are all matters for this Parliament, but they are all matters of concern in the field of education and training as well. There is the relationship of supply and demand for professional people which is bound to concern them. I am not only thinking about teachers. There are doctors, nurses, engineers to be trained and so forth. All of these are linked with education in the secondary schools. What about apprentices and trades, such as the building trade and motor mechanics? There will be no one left in Parliament to speak directly for them and their interests in these matters. We are now forbidden by law to take any part in discussions of this kind at a local level. Can the hon. the Minister tell us, as regards all these practical everyday issues linking education with the availability and the disposition of labour and with the economic prospects of the Coloured community, how all these are to link up in terms of the activities of this Coloured Representative Council? Where are these matters to be discussed and decided and to whom must these people make representations on these particular questions when they have taken any decisions? In other words, where is the link to be between education, locally administered and controlled on the one hand, and the organized South African labour market with all its ramifications on the other hand? It is quite clear that the Coloured community cannot spend their whole lives in terms of their economic activities, taking in each other’s washing. As we know, the majority of them work for us. These matters, I maintain, cannot be dealt with in separate compartments. They have to be dealt with in terms of the country’s economic activities as a whole.

Now the second matter I should like to raise is the question of community welfare, over which the Council will have jurisdiction of a kind. Now I find it most ironical in terms of welfare that the last report of the Coloured Development Corporation shows that the largest sum of money, 31 per cent, was allocated to setting up liquor businesses, and another 26 per cent for setting up hotels. That means that 57 per cent of the capital that was lent to people for business undertakings by the Corporation last year went to liquor businesses and hotels, which means liquor in both cases, and one of the greatest social evils among the Coloured people is the high degree of alcoholism from which the community as a whole suffers. In fact, in the Press the other day it was reported that a big hospital for alcoholics was to be built at Athlone, which will cost R130,000. It will only deal with 30 cases initially. But this is to deal specifically with alcoholics in the Peninsula area, and it is to be right next door to the hotels. I really find this rather ironical, and perhaps the Minister can give us some explanation. This hospital is to be built by an organization called the S.A. National Council for Alcoholism. I should like to know how much active co-operation across the colour line will be permitted to this organization if the Coloured community is to take full advantage of the help offered to it? It seems to me to be important that we should know whether they are going to be in a position to work together.

The Coloured community has already begun to make suggestions as to the various matters with which this Council should deal. The liquor laws is one of those matters and I have a Press report here dealing with it. [Time expired.]

I am glad that the hon. member for Wynberg has taken a more positive approach to this problem to-day, but certain remarks came from the other side last night which we cannot allow to pass. I very much regret that the hon. member for Karoo is ill and I hope he will very soon return to perfect health. Unfortunately the hon. members for Peninsula and Karoo created the impression that with the coming into power of the National Party the Coloured man was the loser and that he was demoted in some way. They pose to the Coloured man and to the outside world as angels of light and the up-lifters of the Coloured people, but what is the real position? We live in a very complicated country and the impression is given from the other side in this debate that there are only two kinds of people in South Africa, Whites and Coloureds. But the fact is, as we know, that historical processes over 300 years resulted in the development of a white nation which is established here in South Africa, and there are also many Black nations amounting to 14 million people, and in between them there is developing a brown nation, the Coloureds, of 1½ million people. Whatever the Coloureds may do, they will always be a minority in South Africa. One thing is certain, as the hon. member for Namaqualand said: White South Africa will never accept integration, and I believe that there must always be separation between Whites and non-Whites in South Africa. Apart from anything else, integration in any form will never be accepted by white South Africa. Not only will Nationalist supporters or the Afrikaans-speaking people not accept it, but it will not be accepted in any way by supporters of the party opposite either. About 10 years ago I was associated with the constituency of Pinelands, which as hon. members know is a very strong United Party seat. At that time the Council at Pinelands wanted to build a few houses in the compound where they keep their equipment, for Coloured people, but there were flashes of blue flame and indignation and the plan had to be dropped. What was the position of the Coloured man in 1948? I remember very well what the position of the Coloured man was in 1948. At that time the United Party Government looked upon the Coloured man as the appendage of the white man. I would like to say that we on this side as Nationalists have not got the racial arrogance to look upon anybody as an appendage.

You have always said so.

We know the force of nationalism; we want to be ourselves and we know that the Black nation and the Brown nation want to be themselves and that they want to control their own affairs, and within their own areas we are going to make that possible for them. I believe that the only way in which we can all live together here and enjoy our rights is by following the policy of separate development of the National Party. Sir, I want to refer briefly once more to the position of the Coloured man in 1948. At that time he was neglected by the white man; he was exploited economically by the white man, and on the other hand he was undermined economically by masses of Bantu who came into the Western Cape, which is the Coloured man’s traditional home. One has only to recall what happened in places like Kensington to know that that is absolutely true. The Coloured man was undermined in his work because the Black man who lived at a lower economic level could always undercut the Coloured, and the filthy slums of Kensington and District Six developed under the regime of the United Party. Sir, the Coloured man faces a Black majority in this country, and just as we want separation between White and non-White, so the Coloured man does not want to be absorbed by the Black man. The Coloured man knows very well that he will not get sympathetic treatment from the Black man if the United Party’s policy of gradual political integration were to be carried out in South Africa, a policy which must culminate in Black rule

Where do you get political integration?

If you are going to have Coloured M.P.s in this House and white representatives of the Black man in this House, that is political integration, and then ultimately the power must fall into the hands of the Black majority and the Coloured man will be crushed and so will the white man. Therefore I believe that the Coloured man has a vested interest in the implementation of the National Party policy of separate development.

Mr. Chairman, I want to refer briefly to three other matters. Far from oppressing the Coloured man, we are the uplifters and the liberators of the Coloured man. What chance did a Coloured man have in 1948 to start his own business? What share did the Coloured man have in the wealth of the liquor trade or any other trade? He had no chance at all; he was exploited by the white man.

Put him in the liquor trade—a jolly good idea!

As I say, the Coloured man was undermined by the Black man. But three things were done by the National Party to uplift the Coloured man and to bring him to the state where he is to-day and to give him his chance. Sir, one thing shines through every page of this report of the Department of Coloured Affairs and that is that the hon. the Minister and his Department are absolutely sincere in their desire and their determination to give the Coloured man his chance. One of the great things that we did for the Coloured man, was to stop the movement of the Black man into the Western Cape which is the Coloured man’s traditional home, and to give the Coloured man the chance to find his own feet and to provide the labour for this area. Secondly, we established group areas. We as a white nation have not got one piece of land. From our inception as a nation in 1910, South Africa has been divided by Black states created by Britain, i.e. by Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland, and under our own policy it will become more broken up. The Coloured man has not got one piece of land either, but he has his stake in South Africa. As the hon. member for Namaqualand has said, the Coloured man is an agriculturist, and I believe that a certain percentage of every nation must make their living on the land. The Coloured man has that chance in the areas set aside for him. In the group areas in the towns …

Where are these areas you are talking about?

The hon. member for Namaqualand spoke about the 1½ million acres of land in Namaqualand. These areas are traditionally his. In the group areas in the cities he can own his property and his own business. He may even have a liquor or any other business and he is protected from white competition. This is the first chance in history the Coloured man has ever had and we are giving him this chance. Thirdly we are giving the Coloured a political chance. Every nation in the world wants to control their own affairs and to elect their own people. When the four Coloured representatives came to this House I believe there were 33.000 registered Coloured voters. Now there are 500,000 registered voters, because the Coloureds have taken a positive interest in this matter. For the first time not only the Coloured man in the Cape, but also the Coloured men and women in the whole of South Africa, are being given a chance. (Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am aware of the fact that this Government is taking a lot of trouble to improve the position of the Coloureds in the Western Cape, and we on this side of the House are grateful for that. However, the Nationalist Party is now singing a different tune to the one it sang in the days when we ruled the country and when they spoke of the fact that we were spending too much on Coloured education, etc. I thought that the Nationalist Party would be satisfied not to rake up the past, because we on this side of the House have a clean record in respect of the Coloureds. [Interjections.] When the hon. members for Namaqualand, Moorreesburg and others place statements on record here which are untrue, someone must put them right. I want to do so, and I want to begin with what the hon. member for Moorreesburg said. I now merely want to remind him of the days in 1949 when he was an election agent for Mr. Van Rensburg and when he had six Coloured committees to do election work against me for the Nationalist Party. He had two in Kensington which gave shoes to the Coloureds. Hon. members may ask the hon. member for Outeniqua. He was there and he knows what happened. At that time we took a photograph and I can give this photograph to the hon. member for Moorreesburg. [Interjections.] The hon. member did do that. Do not tell me that at that time the Nationalist Party was not seeking the Coloured vote, because they were trying to bribe the Coloureds with shoes and football jerseys. As far as the hon. member for Namaqualand is concerned, I merely want to tell him that we should rather leave the matter there. We must forget about those days. I can also refer to that. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it would do any good if I once again raked up the shoot-them-down politics of the Nationalist Party in respect of the Coloureds?

The hon. member must come back to the Vote now.

I am dealing with the Vote, Mr. Chairman.

Which Vote?

The same Vote under which that hon. member spoke when he accused the United Party Government of advocating integration. This is not true. When Ben Schoeman was a member of the United Party he did not advocate integration. Ian Wentzel and Ian Viljoen’s son did not advocate integration either. [Interjections.]

Order!

If hon. members opposite want us to rake up the past, I do not mind, because I have a clean record. However, if we were to do so I do not know whether South Africa and the Nationalist Party are not going to suffer losses. Hon. members opposite must not …

What about the letter?

The hon. member must please keep quiet.

Order! The hon. member may continue, and must confine himself to the Vote.

I am restricting myself to the Vote. I am grateful that you have given me the right to continue, but I regret that you have not denied hon. members opposite the right to make continual interjections.

Order! I want to point out to the hon. member that he must not cast reflections on the Chair.

I am not casting any reflections. I am blaming hon. members opposite …

Order! The hon. member must come back to the Vote.

I am dealing with the Vote and I shall restrict myself to it.

Do not argue with the Chair.

Order!

I do not know whether that hon. member was in order …

Order! The hon. member must continue and must speak about the Vote or else he must resume his seat.

I shall speak about the Vote. I have never deviated from the Vote. The position is that we on this side of the House will not allow ourselves to be intimidated in ways such as those which were tried this afternoon. There are many more serious matters which we could discuss in connection with the Coloureds. For example, the Coloureds on farms in the Western Province are becoming progressively fewer to-day and nothing is being done about that. Here are statements that there is not a shortage of Coloured labour in the Western Province. At the same time the Secretary for Coloured Affairs stated the following—

He goes further and proposes that we build community centres for Coloureds in the country districts, in order to keep them there and in order to pay them higher wages. This is all very well, but the fact of the matter is that at present there is a chronic shortage of Coloureds in the Western Province.

At first you said there were too many.

I have never said so. On 16th October, 1968, Mr. De Villiers, the chairman of the Cape Agricultural Union, said (translation)—

I get the impression that there are people who altogether underestimate this matter and who are not aware of the seriousness of the position in the Western Cape. I was glad when the hon. member for Moorreesburg said that these Bantu migrant labourers were interbreeding with the Coloureds to the extent that the Bantu strain was becoming predominant. This is so, and it is a dangerous state of affairs about which I speak every year, but nothing is done and no interest is displayed. As a result of these migrant labourers without their families, our farms are being depopulated, losing their Coloured labourers. The hon. member is correct in saying that this is still continuing. There is a great deal that we can do for our Coloured labourers. Last year I pleaded for special services for Coloureds so that social workers could teach Coloured women in the country districts in particular to do needlework, etc. The old farmworkers, who have spent their whole lives working on a farm, are also being thrown to the wolves in their old age. Is it not possible for the Department to help farmers so that they may jointly establish old-age homes for Coloureds who have given them faithful service for years and years, from early in the morning to late at night? Why must they specifically come to the cities in order to receive these facilities at old-age homes and why must they come to places in the city to die? Is it, then, not possible for us to think of ways and means of helping those people so that they may know that in the evening of their lives they will also obtain accommodation in the country districts?

In the short time at my disposal I want to touch upon another matter, i.e. education. I am grateful for the educational facilities which are available for Coloureds to-day, but the greatest breeding ground of Communism was and still is those schools where they learn subjects which they will never again use ever. The so-called “three R’s” are very good, but I consider it essential that skilled training be given to Coloureds in the country districts so that those people can prepare themselves for their callings later in life. I accompanied a Judge’s wife to a wedding and the mother of the Malay bridegroom told her to go and look at the bedroom suite which had been made by the bridegroom. The Judge’s wife admired the bedroom suite and said that she had thought that the bridegroom was a teacher. The Malay woman then said that they teach their children that everyone in life will fall, and that when they fall they must land feet first. In other words, you must be prepared to do something if that other profession goes wrong. Is it not then possible to give a kind of training at school where they could learn something which their homes would need, i.e. to look after their husbands’ clothes, and look after the children and to cook food. The majority of them will, in any case, never become teachers.

Why only the Coloureds?

No, not only the Coloureds. I do not know why the hon. member has now asked that question, but I said that the majority of them would not become teachers because the children from the country districts have the least chance of all of becoming teachers. They must be taught this so that they can do something and be worth something. Hon. members can picture for themselves the position of a Coloured person who has obtained Std. 6 in the country districts and who thinks of himself as educated. When he goes to look for work he finds out that there is no position in which he is acceptable with the education that he has. I honestly do not think that this is a political matter, but a matter to which the hon. the Minister could give his serious attention because this is necessary. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat has done this debate a very great injustice because the debate has thus far been conducted at a very high level. He nearly succeeded in once more bringing the debate down to the level of backyard politics. I was just waiting for him to crawl into the gutters again, in order to salve his conscience, which he finds so troublesome because of past United Party policy.

Oh, but you are a mean little man!

Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member for Sea Point entitled to tell the hon. member that he is a mean little man?

Order! The hon. member must withdraw it.

Mr. Chairman, are you saying that it is unparliamentary?

I am saying that the hon. member must withdraw it!

Very well, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it if it is unparliamentary.

That hon. member’s conscience is troubling him to such an extent, in respect of the United Party’s past, that he specifically had to come along and make that kind of speech this afternoon. He is as aware as we are of the fact that the United Party has vanished from the political arena as a result of their integration policy of the past, which they still adhere to to-day and, in fact, advocated yesterday. I want to leave it at that now.

When we speak about Coloured affairs in this House we are speaking about an important matter in the composition of our South African nation, because the Coloureds are one of the population groups in South Africa. In other words, we are dealing with our relationships policy. In speaking about that we must do so in such a way that we do not damage those good relations which are so essential to peaceful coexistence. I am glad that throughout this debate the speakers appeared to have that sense of responsibility. I am also particularly glad of the fact that it appears as if the policy of the National Party in respect of the Coloureds is also being accepted to an ever greater extent. It is essential that this should be so, and we believe now that the Coloureds have also received proper political rights for the first time, as we heard from the mouths of the Coloured representatives yesterday, and that when the Coloureds first begin to exercise those rights, the support and approval of the Government’s policy will continue to increase. It is essential that this should happen. I want to express the hope that our Coloured community will, to a large extent, make use of the opportunity which they are now being offered, that they will also give their approval to the Government’s policy, by way of the political rights which they have now obtained, at the election which is to be held within the space of this year. They can do this by casting a high percentage of votes. I hope and trust that the Coloureds will do so, and thereby will indicate, not only to South Africa, but to the world, that they are accepting this opportunity with tremendous joy and responsibility, and that they will also exercise it in a responsible manner in the interests of South Africa, but especially in their own interests as well.

I now want to speak about the position in respect of Johannesburg. This links up with what I have already said. In Johannesburg, Coloureds are now being gathered in their own residential area. Coloureds are being taken out of the various areas of the Johannesburg complex and are being settled in their own area. It goes without saying that Coloureds who, in the past, did not know one another, or had nothing in common, are now being gathered together in their own area. We are glad of that. I am convinced that the Coloured population are also particularly glad that they now have their own areas where they can develop to full maturity. But there are, of necessity, problems involved when such a resettlement takes place. I am now grateful to be able to say that I am convinced that the Department of Coloured Affairs is doing everything in its power to eliminate levels of friction of bottlenecks which may be taking place, and to allow this resettlement process to take place on a very sound footing. This appears from our findings there. We see that the people are happy. The only conclusion to which one can come is that it is being done in such a way as to meet with the approval of the people concerned.

But, Sir, obviously that complex, which is now being built up there, is situated between the white and Bantu areas. On one side it is separated from the white area, with a very small area in between. On the other side is the Bantu residential area. Between those two groups the Coloureds must now find and establish themselves. They must be happy there in the future. I consider it essential that the planning should be done right from the start in such a way as to eliminate all possible levels of friction which could develop in the distant future. The planning must be of such a nature that, as far as possible, no levels of friction shall develop in the future. This is essential, because the entire survival of South Africa, and especially the white man in South Africa, depends on the measure of future success we achieve in connection with racial peace and the peaceful co-existence of races in South Africa. We all realize this. We know that the entire policy of the Government is aimed at bringing about that peaceful future co-existence of the races. I now hope and trust that success will be achieved in doing it in that way.

But this afternoon I want to point to one very important link in this process, i.e. the Rand College of Education. I believe that this training college should serve as a very important factor in this process of the establishment of the Coloureds and in the expanding of their area, so that, eventually, as a population group, they will reach full maturity there, feel an attachment for the soil and also be able to continue living happily. Let there be no mistake about the fact that eventually a very large Coloured population will be settled there. I now want to ask that, in the first place, we gratefully take note of the very good work which is being done at present at this Rand College of Education by the white rector, several white lecturers, as well as Coloured lecturers. We should very much like to express a word of gratitude and appreciation to them for their work, especially the Whites who are working there under very difficult circumstances. As far as that is concerned, we also want to ask for the position of those Whites always to be treated in a very sympathetic way. But now I want to ask that the position of this college be given thorough consideration and that we do our level best to allow this college to develop in such a way that it will, in fact, be the cultural centre, the life source and the vital artery of the Coloureds in that area when it has finished developing. I want to say that we are also grateful for the development which is taking place, for the erection of a new college building and for the new grounds which they have received. But it is extremely regrettable that I must say here to-day that we have knocked in vain on the Department’s door in order to have those grounds enlarged. Our request fell on deaf ears. This is regrettable. It is a tragedy. The excuse that there are no opportunities for extension, that further land cannot be purchased because it is too expensive, is, as far as I am concerned, a very weak and a very unacceptable excuse [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I hope that the hon. member who has just resumed his seat will pardon me if I do not follow him up in his speech. In the time at my disposal there are a few small matters about which I should like to state my point of view.

Speak louder!

Sometimes not even loud words are of any use, not if they fall on deaf ears.

I want to associate myself with the speech which the hon. member for Peninsula made in this House yesterday evening. The hon. member and I discussed his speech before the time. I want to associate myself with it and to give him the fullest support in everything he said. The hon. member made a constructive and objective speech here yesterday evening, a speech based on the experience which we have gained as Coloured representatives. If there are hon. members who were nettled at criticism which he expressed, I merely want to refer them to a private discussion which I had with the late Dr. Verwoerd in March, 1966. On that occasion he said to me, inter alia: “I am not interested in the political standpoints of the Progressive Party, the United Party or the National Party. I know them. As far as Coloured representatives are concerned, they must be independent, because I want to know what the Coloureds feel and think and what their needs are. If there is any criticism I want to hear it; but I must feel that it comes from the Coloureds and not from a certain political party.” Now the criticism of the hon. member for Peninsula must be accepted as such.

In connection with the hon. member for Peninsula’s speech I want to indicate the stage which we have reached this year with the election of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. I want to repeat the hon. member for Peninsula’s appeal to the Coloureds, because what happened was that when the Coloured Council was originally constituted, and thereafter, a great deal of criticism was forthcoming from the Coloureds about the people serving on the Coloured Council. It was found that there were many more competent and more experienced people outside the council, but my reply was: But why, then, did they not take part and ensure that those people got onto that council? But at the same time I merely want to warn the hon. the Minister in a spirit of goodwill by saying that with the nomination, the organization and the establishment of the original Coloured Council, there was also a great deal at fault with the Department of Coloured Affairs. People were used who ought never to have been in the Public Service, apart from the fact that they were used in order to look for people co serve on the Coloured Council. I do not want to go into details. The person whom I specifically have in mind is no longer in the service of the Department, but it is only after she had done a great deal of damage that she was discharged. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to be very careful, when it comes to the nomination of the 20 members of the Coloured Council, about how he decides on who must be nominated. I hope that the hon. the Minister accepts this in the spirit in which it is meant.

There may be a great deal of criticism, and a great deal of destructive criticism was levelled here yesterday evening at the dispensation for our Coloureds to-day. My time is too limited to go into particulars, but I want to say here that what I appreciate of the Prime Minister was the statement which he made in this House during this Session about our children having to decide. He was criticized and it was said that he did not have a Coloured policy, but I maintain that it is impossible to define a Coloured policy to-day which would have to bind our children, because we do not know what the conditions will then be. This honest and frank statement of the Prime Minister also links up with what the late Dr. Verwoerd said at one stage, i.e. that we could not continue in South Africa to drag the Coloureds along behind the Whites as an appendage; they must develop into a fully-fledged population group in South Africa. If that development were to take place and we were to begin with the most elementary requirement, it means that single roof over a family’s heads instead of four or five families in one room in District Six. I am speaking of a private roof over a family’s heads, where there are at least doors which can be closed. And if the educational development were to take place, as it is doing at present, and were to be extended, and the socio-economic development be added to that, we would, in the future, in our children’s era, as the Prime Minister said, have a position in which the attunement to and the determination of relations between the Coloured group and the white group would be totally different. Therefore I take my hat off to the Prime Minister for his frankness in having said this, and I accept it. This is as I have always seen it.

I want to repeat what the hon. member for Peninsula said here in appealing for care when thoughts were entertained in the future about legislation which discriminated against the Coloureds. I think that we already have too much discriminating legislation on the Statute Book. I am not delving into the past and I do not want to rake up old stories, but there is a great deal which could be done away with or that we could soft-pedal a little. But I can give the assurance to the hon. the Minister and the Government that these small discriminations cause a tremendous degree of frustration among the Coloureds. I have now been here for 11 years and I know what I am talking about, and there is so much that is unnecessary and in respect of which coercion need not be used, but in respect of which coercion is used as a result of measures which are already on the Statute Book, but which as far as I am concerned, ought never to have been there at all. They are now there, but let us be careful, because it is these small things which cause the greatest frustration and are the most volatile fuel for frustration and embitterment. Let us be careful with them. Let us develop the Coloured population group to a fully-fledged population group, citizens of South Africa who can go to meet the future without those irritations and causes of friction.

I briefly want to thank the hon. the Minister for the invitation which he extended to us to visit the cadet camp at Faure. The hon. member for Peninsula has already spoken about that. I personally have been there and I am proud, for the reasons which I gave on that occasion, of the fact that I supported that legislation at the time. At the time of the discussion of that legislation, my thoughts went back to the years when I was a young boy and saw a train full of recruits of the White Pioneer Corps arriving at the Bloemfontein station, half of them barefoot. I can remember what fruits we reaped in the war years from the training of those lads in the Pioneer Corps. What I saw at Faure, at that training centre, is very encouraging. All that I can say is that Colonel Kingwill agreed with me when I wished that, at the time when we were soldiers, we could have had such a camp, such mattresses to sleep on and could have enjoyed such housing and food. It was begun de novo and it was beautifully planned, but now I should like to ask the Minister this. Since there is now a para-military organization in existence for Coloured boys, can the hon. the Minister, in consultation with the Minister of Defence and the Government, not go into the matter of whether the time has not come for us to have a general call-up system for the Coloureds as well, as is the case for white boys? I can understand that this is now a beginning. Registration must now take place between the ages of 18 to 24 years, and thereafter they must be registered each year at the age of 18, but can we not make this permanent so that the Coloured boy would also be called up to undergo military training? Now that my children must undergo military training, I myself have found, in my own home, what a tremendous difference this can make to a young boy. It gives him a feeling of pride and of responsibility. I think that we would inspire a greater sense of responsibility in the growing Coloured generation if we could place this training on the same basis as that for Whites, so that a Coloured boy has to register at a certain age and must undergo his military training.

I am glad the hon. member for Outeniqua raised the question of the political future dispensation for the Coloureds, especially in view of the fact that recently the reproach has often been levelled that this side of the House does not want to indicate to the Coloureds what the end of the road will be. To a certain extent I also agree with the hon. member for Outeniqua. Unfortunately I could not be present in the House when the hon. member for Peninsula was speaking yesterday. I have been told that he said a number of first-rate things and gave good advice to the Coloureds in regard to what was in prospect for them in the immediate future, but there is one thing I did not hear, i.e. that he asked them to develop towards having a national aspiration and an identity of their own.

His time ran out.

Fine, in that case the hon. member can have another turn to speak, but I do not suppose the hon. member intends to speak further, because if the hon. member felt strongly about the matter, there have been many subsequent opportunities for doing so. In any case, as far as the Coloureds are concerned, the position at present is such that we may be grateful for many things. For a population group which is so heterogeneous and which genealogically has developed out of unrelated groups and which has a long history of inferiority or rather, to put it this way, of being in an inferior position in many spheres of their life, it is difficult to develop a national aspiration, a national identity and a national pride of their own. And we must help these people to develop these things, because our whole policy is aimed at giving them these things. Now, it is not only necessary for them to develop a national pride in the eyes of the white nation, but also in their own eyes; and I think that at this stage this is perhaps still the most real problem for the Coloured population. I think this is an instruction, a challenge, which hon. members could have set the new Coloured Persons Representative Council, i.e. that in this respect they have a task to fulfil with the knowledge that further political rights will be based on the degree of maturity of the nation and the responsibility of the members of that nation. That is why I am at this moment extending my congratulations to the Coloureds on the new era which is in the offing for them. I congratulate them on the large number of people who have been registered and who are going to vote in the coming elections. That proves that these people are interested and that the seeds of this aspiration are present. I congratulate the Coloureds on the calm and honourable manner in which they have conducted the election contest up to now. It is unnecessary to say any more in this regard, but with reference to the reproach that we do not see the end of the road and with reference to the attempt to force us to say where we are taking the Coloureds, I nevertheless want to read experts from a debate on the Bantu and the Coloureds in which the late Dr. Verwoerd and the Leader of the Opposition, Sir de Villiers Graaff, took part. In 1961 the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said the following (Hansard, column 4388)—

In other words, in respect of a race group, i.e. the Bantu, where at that time the National Party had already outlined the road as seen right up to the end, he was still not at all in a position to work out a practicable policy and spoke of the “foreseeable future”, not even of generations to come. Consequently Dr. Verwoerd was quite justified in giving this reply in the same debate (column 4547)—

Mr. Chairman, I think it is political audacity, if I may say so—after all these things have been said, after it has been the policy over the years to advance in the light of what one sees, as far as one is able to see it, towards solving the problems—to expect this party and this Prime Minister all of a sudden, after seven years, to furnish them with a plan up to the very end. What I should like to tell them, is that the foundations have definitely been laid. We do not have a final solution as yet, but we have laid the foundations of the road ahead, and that is important. It took this Government eight years, from 1948 to 1956, to create the framework up to the point where we can proceed with the political rights of these people. The road ahead has therefore been paved. Now we are expected to indicate the end of the road. I have already said what my summary is in respect of such an attitude. Sir, some time ago a certain person wrote as follows (translation)—

Sir, a nation is after all not born in the space of one or two generations; that has often been said here, and that is why I think that the hon. the Prime Minister was fully justified in saying what he said here this year, and I once again endorse this to-day—

Sir, I think this summarizes the matter. I think as far as this matter is concerned, an adequate reply has been given in as far as it can reasonably be expected from this party and its leadership at this stage, and the object of my speech to-day was to ask the future Coloured Persons Representative Council to follow that lead, to avail themselves of their opportunities and to aspire after a national identity of their own.

I am inclined to agree with the hon. member for Gordonia that it is indeed impertinent to expect any political party or political leader to predict the ultimate solution to the Coloured problem or to lay down a hard and fast policy.

Do you agree with me?

Yes, I agree, but I think it is equally impertinent for the hon. member to assume that the National Party had found a final solution to any of our non-White problems, which is what he has done. Sir, we have no final solution. We are watching the volution of this country as far as every racial group is concerned, and all one can do is to try to see the direction that one wishes such a policy to follow, but I do not think that anybody in this House should dare to have the impertinence to guarantee its ultimate success, and that applies to any group. I might say that even the hon. member for Moorreesburg, who asked for a sort of Coloured Tomlinson Commission report, cannot expect that that would solve our problem, particularly as the Tomlinson Commission’s report has not in any way solved the African problem in this country, although it appeared in 1956. But I do agree with him that some effort should be made at least to anticipate the problem and to know the magnitude of the problems that we tackle when we go in, for instance, for the wholesale removal of people.

As I see it, the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs is going to find himself without a portfolio one of these days; he is going to be in the same position as the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs, because one finds that education is now going over to the Coloured Representative Council; that social welfare for the Coloured people is going over to the Coloured Representative Council. Then there are three other matters which vitally affect the Coloured people: Group areas belong in part to Planning and in part to Community Development; housing belongs to Community Development; separate amenities to Community Development; beach apartheid has now been handed over to the Cape Provincial Council. The hon. the Minister is going to be left with one university plus the training centres of which there is one only at the present stage, plus whatever vocational training centres he is going to set up. I sincerely hope that be gets a move on with that, in view of the fact that during 1968 there were only 985 contracts of Coloured apprentices registered. Other than that, of course, he has the portfolio of placement of Coloured labour, and here he comes into conflict with his other portfolio, which is the portfolio of Labour. Where he has to decide which interests come first with him, the interests of the Coloured people, whom he is supposed to look after in his capacity as Minister of Coloured Affairs, or the interests of white labour, he of course opts for the interests of white labour. We had a very glaring example of that quite recently in the case of the machine operators in a bank. Coloured matriculated girls applied for those jobs and the hon. the Minister, acting administratively, as he said, in the field of job reservation—I would say that he was acting in an intimidating fashion because what was he doing except to threaten the bank that he would use his power to introduce job reservation if they made it necessary —opted against the Coloured girls who had got the jobs and in favour of white girls who, he said in a long answer to me, were available but who, I might say, the bank found unsuitable. Where his interests clash therefore the hon. the Minister opts for the white labour interests as against the Coloured labour interests. So we are going to have this interesting situation where, virtually, he is going to be a Minister without portfolio, just like, and I am sorry to make such an odious comparison, the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs. However, I agree with the hon. member for Moorreesburg in one respect. That is that we should have some form of planning. Here the hon. the Minister can at least serve a useful function by repairing some of the depredations of other hon. Ministers who have such a vital interest in the future of the Coloured people, i.e. the Minister of Community Development and the Minister of Planning. In the hands of these two Ministers lies the future of the Coloured people as far as their place of residence is concerned and where they may occupy premises for business purposes. To the best of my knowledge no proper forward planning has ever been done before the Department of Planning decides to declare an area a white group area and the Group Areas Act is implemented by the Department of Community Development. When I say “no forward planning”, I mean planning as regards the people who have to be moved. Of course, planning is done to see whether it fits in with white interests and whether it fits in with the Government’s policy of segregation. However, no actual planning is done as far as the individuals arc concerned. Afterwards the hon. the Minister’s Department moves in and somebody comes out with a survey of the number of families that are going to be affected by the move.

I believe this is putting things quite the wrong way round because before a single move is planned, the hon. the Minister should make it his business to find out everything about the community involved so that he may know exactly what is going to be involved, not only the number of people but also what it is going to mean to their family and social life. We talk about community development and yet it does nothing else but break up existing communities. Thus, District Six has been a Coloured community from its inception, from 1830, and if District Six is not a traditional Coloured area, I do not know what a traditional Coloured area is. Now it is proposed to move 6,250 families out of District Six and scatter them all over Bonteheuwel and the Indians out at Rylands. I do not think these things are ever taken into consideration. What information does the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs furnish his colleagues with about the economic effect of a proposed removal? There is, for instance, the additional cost of transport, because those who had lived within walking or cycling distance of their places of employment are now going to be moved as far out as Bonteheuwel and those in Simonstown 10 miles away to Slangkop. This will mean additional transport costs for them. What efforts are made to contact their employers to find out whether they are prepared to subsidize these people at least to the extent of the additional transport costs? Because these additional costs are going to weigh very heavily on unskilled labourers particularly, such as the dockworkers in Simonstown, and semi-skilled workers working in the factories. What efforts are made to determine what income a family is going to lose as a result of the fact that women and children can not do any casual part-time work to augment the family income? All these aspects are aspects of enormous importance. If I am wrong, I hope the hon. the Minister will tell me, but I do not believe that any proper survey of this nature is ever carried out before the Department of Planning decides that a given area is going to be a white area and the Department of Community Development steps in to implement the decision. From this point of view I would agree with the hon. member for Moorreesburg that we need a proper survey, but not a survey in anticipation of an all-time solution of the Coloureds’ problem.

I should now like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he is prepared to correct the incorrect impression created by the Press report about the raid threat to the Coloureds, as it was headlined in a newspaper, to get recruits for the Coloured training camp. In reply to a question of mine the other day he told me that no such intention was in his mind. What he expected, however, was that police would ask the Coloured youths to produce their registration certificates on demand. In yesterday’s first edition of the evening paper, I think, that impression was put right because in terms of the Act, Coloured people are given seven days in which to produce those certificates. That is in terms of the only amendment of mine which during the period of 15 years that I have been in this House, has been accepted by a Minister, a fact for which I am deeply grateful nevertheless. However, I hope the hon. the Minister will correct this impression, because there is a considerable anxiety amongst the Coloured people that they are now going to be subjected to the sort of pass raids to which Africans are subjected.

I want my speech to follow up the speech made by the hon. member for Sea Point. While I sat listening to him, he reminded me of the man whose mind was so closed to any intelligent ideas that he was only open between one and two. The hon. member’s arguments revolved around education. It was education that he wanted to discuss and in regard to which he wanted to express criticism. He said that years ago, when the United Party still ruled the country, they also tried to do something for the Coloured people in the field of education. Of course, no one would want to suggest that they did not try to do anything. The basic difference, however, lies in the fact that what they wanted to do would have led to the disintegration of not only the White, but also the Coloured community, with everything attendant upon that, while what the National Party is doing is based on the principle that there is a difference between the two groups —the Whites on the one hand and the non-Whites on the other. That is why what the National Party is doing for the training and education of the Coloured people can only lead to the consolidation of both groups.

If one looks at the activities of the Minister and of his department during the past year, one sees the same constant growth of the past two decades. When any student of population problems, both in the outside world and here in South Africa, wants to test the success or failure of a policy, there are three tests that can be applied in the case of the National Party. In the first place the National Party’s activities can be tested against what has been done elsewhere in the world where there are also White and non-White population groups living together. The regulation of the contact situation can be compared, on the one hand as carried out by the National Party here and on the other hand as carried out by the authorities in the other society. If we look at other parts of the world where there is a more or less similar racial situation, we notice that there are mainly two ways of approaching the matter. In the first place there is the approach on the part of the Whites to spend money on the training of the non-white group, especially in the educational and economic spheres. However, they do so entirely for their own selfish considerations, i.e. only to serve the white community. For this reason this approach cannot succeed. On the other hand one finds in those communities the so-called sentimentalists, i.e. those people who want to spend money on the non-Whites only to satisfy their own egoistical ideology. In this lies the problem that we find in other parts of the world. If one tests the National Party against this, one finds that those two approaches do not form part of our approach.

But on the other hand our policy can also be compared with that of the United Party. As I said a moment ago, the United Party also spent a little money in its time. At that time there were also education and training for the Coloureds. However, I just want to mention a few figures briefly in order to indicate the difference between the quality and the quantity of what they did, and what we are doing. In 1945 there were only 173,000 Coloured children at school. In 1952, that is to say, four years after the National Party came into power, there were already 203,000 Coloured children at school. We must bear in mind that at that time the National Party already had to start changing the basic principles according to which the United Party had set to work. In 1964 we had nearly 350,000 Coloured children in primary schools. In the secondary classes there were more than 37,000, while there were 164 Coloured children in the tertiary sphere. In 1968 there were more than 400.000 Coloured children in the primary schools. In the secondary classes there were more than 44,000 children, and in the tertiary sphere there were 805. This same growth in numbers, which is not only a growth in quantity, but also a growth in quality, one also finds in respect of the schools, in respect of the teachers, and in respect of the syllabuses. In other words, if one were to carry out a test in South Africa to-day and test the National Party’s standpoint in relation to the outside world, one would find a stability such as exists nowhere else in the world, when one tests the United Party, one finds the same. But the best way of testing whether our policy is succeeding, is to test it against its own principles; those principles out of which the National Party grows and as translated into policy by the hon. the Minister of Defence when he was Minister of Coloured Affairs, and now again by our present hon. Minister. Then one will find that the National Party’s approach to education and training is not directed at the Coloured people merely for the egocentric benefit of the Whites. That is why it is not concentrated merely on certain facets of the life of the Coloured community, but covers all the facets of their society. It was not only directed at formal education, but also at informal education. It covers the entire Coloured community; all its members, all generations and all age groups. We are trying our best to permit the talent of each individual in the Coloured community to develop and grow.

I just want to mention a few examples. Just look at what the Government is doing to acquaint the urban Coloured population with the rural community, and in this way acquainting the urban Coloured not only with the rural atmosphere, but also with those Coloureds who belong to the rural community. In other words, contact is being brought about between the two groups. The reverse is also being done, however, so that the rural Coloured person will also be able to adapt himself to urban surroundings and will not degenerate if for some reason or other he has to go and settle there. There are other facets as well. We think for example of training for leadership. If there is something the Coloured people probably want very badly and of which they have a great need, it is leaders in their community. I call to mind, for example, the leadership course that was offered by the Hewatt Training College from 30th September to 4th October, at which one of them said, inter alia, the following (translation)—

In other words, in contrast to what the hon. member for Sea Point said when he took a very superficial look at this education, the National Party is covering all facets of the community of the Coloured people. I also want to quote a few other examples by reading from Alpha’s index to show what spheres of the Coloured community are covered by the department. In July, 1967, an article appeared about a shoe industry at Saron. The article will naturally point out the Coloureds’ association with the specific aspect mentioned. Social work among the Coloured population has also been written about. An article entitled “An Attorney” was also published in order to acquaint the Coloureds with the various legal aspects. Further articles were, for example, “A School for Epileptics”; “Training of Marriage Counsellors”—one of the most important matters in a Western community, i.e. the stabilization of marriage and family life; “Housewives arrange a Fashion Parade”; “Blood Donation”; “Horticulture Society blooms”. In a subsequent edition of Alpha articles appeared on “Nutrition Advisory Services”, “The Crechè at Eersterus”, “How your Child is Protected”, and “Unhealthy Eating and Drinking Habits among Children”. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, there are a few unconnected matters I should like to bring to the hon. the Minister’s notice. In the first place, the hon. the Minister recently visited the Coloured communities of South-West, which now also fall under him. According to reports it seemed as though his path was not strewn with roses everywhere. According to reports the Basters of Rehoboth displayed fairly strong signs of dissatisfaction. There was even talk of their wanting to bring a charge against the Government with world bodies. Other reports, again, stated that the 12,000 Basters wanted immediate independence for Rehoboth. They wanted their own Prime Minister and Cabinet. In any event they wanted to take charge of Justice and Home Affairs immediately. They also wanted the same syllabuses for their schools as the schools for Whites have. I do not want us to rely on newspaper reports. I hope the hon. the Minister will comply with my request to give us an account of what precisely is happening there and what the Government envisages in respect of particularly the constitutional development of Rehoboth. According to what we know of Rehoboth, it consists of a number of farms, a few schools, some shops and a couple of bars. If it is the policy of the Government to make this area an independent republic, we should very much like to know precisely what procedure will be followed.

What, Rehoboth a Republic!

Yes, an independent state. Is this not the policy?

Are you after a presidency?

The hon. the Minister has members on that side who are not of much assistance to him. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what constitutional plans he has for this state.

The hon. the Minister also visited the Nama at Gibeon. He also met the Coloured Council of South-West. We should like to know what resulted from that. After his visit the hon. the Minister announced that he was going to give the Basters a department of their own. He himself is now becoming the Chief Baster, as it were. In future he will be known as the Minister of Rehoboth Affairs.

They can make you commissioner.

I believe that post has already been filled. But seriously, I should like to hear what the hon. the Minister envisages. Is this going to be included in his official designation? Will he also be Minister of Rehoboth Affairs? If that is so, what is the intention with the Nama? Will he also become Minister of Nama Affairs? In general I should also like to know what attention is being given to the constitutional development of the Coloured communities, of which there are three different ones in South-West? In South-West African newspapers reports appeared to the effect that it is the intention that all three of these communities will receive representation on the Coloured Council of the Republic. We should like to know what the plans in that connection are; what the nature of the representation will be; how it will be granted; and whether the Minister thinks that the Coloured Council of the Republic will be satisfied with it when it does happen.

While I am dealing with the position in regard to South-West Africa, I just want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to three items in the South-West African Estimates. The one item falls under primary, secondary and high schools, and at the bottom the following observation is made by way of a footnote; “the minimum and maximum salaries of teaching staff are R36 and R3,720 per annum, respectively.” I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what teaching staff are only getting R36 per annum. This item definitely looks strange to me. Then under subhead E there is the item “Population register photography in respect of pupils”. I will be grateful to know whether the population resister is being introduced in South-West Africa, and what the significance of this item is. Under the same subhead there is the item “Allowances, presents and rations to headmen, etc.”. Now, we are dealing with Coloureds, and I should like to know what headmen are concerned in this.

Then I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to a little matter that has been brought to my notice by Coloured parties, and this concerns the training of Coloured boys and girls as medical doctors, advocates and attorneys. The hon. the Minister will know that most of the Coloured people are Afrikaans-speaking, and for that reason most of them receive their school education in Afrikaans. Those who then want to continue their studies, especially those who want to become medical doctors, advocates and attorneys, and also those who want to enter many other professions for which no provision is made at the University of the Western Cape, must then take these courses at the English-language universities, where the medium is English, while there are in fact Afrikaans facilities at other universities. This nuts those students at a very great disadvantage, and it seems to me as if the Afrikaans universities have a great responsibility here. It will take many more years before there are sufficient facilities in this field at the University of the Western Cape, and there can be no doubt about this. I think it would be a serious indictment of the Afrikaans universities if Afrikaans-speaking Coloured persons cannot continue their advanced studies through the medium of Afrikaans, but are forced to do so through the medium of English because the Afrikaans universities refuse to help them. In my opinion there is a very important principle at stake here, and this is where the Government ought to intervene. Surely the principle is that an Afrikaans-speaking child is entitled to receive higher education in his own language. It would be the height of irony if Afrikaans universities should reject this principle, and by doing so forced Afrikaans-speaking persons to receive their training through the medium of English. There are facilities available for the training of attorneys and medical doctors and other professional men in Afrikaans. These institutions are being heavily subsidized by the Government, and I should like to know how the Government intends to meet them halfway and to see to it that justice is done to Afrikaans-speaking Coloured students.

Another little matter which also deserves earnest attention is the question of the increasing occurrence of child labour among the Coloureds. I do not know whether I should rather have raised this under the Labour Vote, but as Coloured Affairs also falls under this hon. Minister, I want to raise it here. The fact of the matter is that clergymen and other social workers are seriously concerned about the fact that many young Coloured children are being employed by bazaars and shops, and that they are being used as newspaper sellers until late at night. This practice has a very detrimental effect on the desire of the young Coloured to receive further education. Everyone who is concerned with the problem tells me that the attraction of the money they earn undenmines their willingness to receive education. It is generally complained that this has a disrupting effect on education. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether Coloured Children are enjoying the necessary protection in this respect, and whether they are enjoying the protection we deem fit to give white children, i.e. that they are not allowed to work before they have reached a certain age.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who sat down a moment ago addressed the hon. the Minister in the first place and asked various questions to which I take it the hon. the Minister will reply in due course. I should therefore like to submit for your consideration a few thoughts following on those of previous speakers. I am referring specifically now to the hon. member for Houghton and the hon. member for Outeniqua. Reference was made to the fact that in our formulation of a policy in regard to the Coloured population we cannot yet see the end of the road. Reference was also made to the hon. the Prime Minister’s having pointed out this year that this is a matter about which future generations will also have to think and will have to decide. I just want to point out to hon. members that the hon. the Prime Minister was not suggesting by this, as the hon. member for Houghton and the hon. member for Outeniqua mentioned in passing, that we have not formulated a policy, but that the Prime Minister was referring specifically to the question of whether the Coloured population should have their own separate homeland or not. In regard to that specific matter the hon. the Prime Minister pointed out that the intention to create a separate, continuous homeland for the Coloured population was still an open question which would form the subject of a great deal of thought and discussion and on which future generations would make decisions. Future generations will have to solve this problem in the light of the development over the years and in the light of the particular circumstances prevailing at the time.

I also want to submit, however, that in our time we can with our policy of separate development in regard to the Coloured population and their needs and aspirations, make a great deal of progress in cultivating and stimulating a sense of having ties with and a love for the soil among the Coloureds. We can cultivate a love for the soil of South Africa among them, because this is also their South Africa. We can also cultivate real patriotism among them and in this way we can make a very great deal of progress without necessarily having finally to decide about the question of a separate, continuous homeland area for the Coloured people. In view of the history of the Coloured population, in view of the history of our country and in view of the potential of the Coloured population. I think that there is very little chance of our being able to achieve such an ideal. However, we must go out of our way and we must plan purposefully, so that we can as far as possible have full-fledged Coloured communities developing in particular areas. In those particular areas they should have proprietary rights, as is in fact the case. The development of complete services for specific communities should also be made possible.

I do not think we can easily separate the Coloured population from the white community along with which they have developed, to whose economy they are attached to a large extent, and on which they are largely dependent. If we look at the development in certain areas, we shall notice that there used to be quite a number of home industries in mission reserves which were under the charge of white missionaries or white managers. Recently quite a number of changes have been effected, and Coloured people have taken over those responsibilities. In many cases the tendency is that where there is no proper white supervision, control, management and planning, nothing comes of those industries. On the contrary. they gradually break down because they cannot compete. That is why I want to ask that we should bear in mind that our Coloured population will at this stage, and probably for many years to come, need a great deal of assistance and guidance from the Whites, and that they depend to a large extent on the leadership and the initiative of the Whites. When looking to the future we must bear this in mind. I therefore feel that we must create such a structure that the Coloured community, wherever it may be situated and wherever we see it developing, should be able as much as possible to find contact with and to offer its services to the white community, or to those white industries that are within its reach.

I think it is largely the position that the Coloured community in the Peninsula is already a reasonably prosperous and rapidly developing community to-day. This is largely attributable to the fact that the Coloured people can find contact with a mainly white economic structure, and that they can sell their labour there and so enjoy the fruits of the prosperity of the country. I think that with a view to the future and the development of the Coloured people we must definitely bear this in mind. We shall be doing the Coloured population a disservice if we just want to put them together somewhere and tell them to develop and find their own way. In that case we will be leaving them in the lurch. They are simply not capable of doing that, and do not have the managerial ability, at least not at this stage of their development. They still need the assistance and guidance of white leadership and initiative too much. I want to stress, however, that we have to give consideration to, where this is at all possible, reserving large, continuous areas, or areas as large as possible, for the Coloured population and to allow them to develop, if I may put it this way, into full-fledged districts. Perhaps we should get away a little from the idea of thinking in terms of residential areas only, and think of areas which can develop to full-fledged districts. This is extremely necessary in the Peninsula. These should be areas in which the Coloured people, Coloured leaders and Coloured businessmen will in due course also be able to render the additional services to that community, so that they will be afforded more opportunities of realizing themselves to the full and of not only working, but also assuming managerial responsibilities. In this way they can themselves exercise leadership and lead their community and population group on their road of development. There are too few white leaders to bear the burden and the responsibility of leadership, managerial responsibility and business initiative alone.

We have this in Namaqualand and in the larger Coloured areas and reserves, where we find a good deal of this. In those areas there are good possibilities for development, but I think we could come closer and also bear this in mind in areas that are situated closer to us. In the Swartland, near Malmesbury, there is such an area in the neighbourhood of Mamre, Kalabaskraal, Dassenberg and Riverlands. This could be investigated, and it could be established in good time whether such a broad, full-fledged community development could not take place there, not only as a residential area, but as a full-fledged district which will eventually have not only its own post office, but also its own magistrate’s offices, police offices, etc., which will be staffed by Coloureds.. I also have in mind an area near Piketberg, where the Wittewater and Goedverwacht missionary stations are situated, where there are already a few thousand Coloureds living. Should we not perhaps consider consolidating two such areas and developing them as a larger complex where a larger community can live and where a more extensive development of the talents and initiative of the Coloured population can take place? There are other areas I could mention, but I want to leave it at this.

I just want to ask that our approach to the Coloured community should be as open as possible, and if we approach the matter in this way, I think we need have no fear of becoming entangled in our own planning in the near future. We will then find that the overall management, i.e. the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council, which will in due course get into its stride and render service, will also be able to perform its functions more easily, and to act more easily without clashing with white governing bodies at our white towns and cities, because they will be more concerned with Coloured communities in their own areas, where they have their own governing bodies. If we look at the development of the Coloured population during the past two decades, we see that it has definitely been encouraging. I want to say here to-day that the Department of Coloured Affairs and the hon. the Minister, to whom the hon. member for Houghton referred here as a Minister who might lose his portfolio, have done very encouraging work. While they probably come up against discouraging things too from time to time, I want to express the confidence that the hon. the Minister and his Department will continue with optimistic planning, having regard to the true facts. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I trust the hon. member for Piketberg will forgive me if I do not follow the trend of his discussion. I want to raise two matters with the hon. the Minister. The first one concerns the provision of recreational facilities for the Coloured people. It is not my intention to dwell upon the controversy that has existed in the past, in regard to the provision of suitable venues for Coloured people when they sought to put on performances and to hold social functions. Having been involved quite closely with some of their problems I can appreciate their difficulties and their frustrations. I hope that in the future when these cases arise, sympathetic consideration will be given to the difficulties which the Coloured people have in regard to finding suitable venues when they wish to hold various functions and to indulge in recreational facilities.

I want to raise with the hon. the Minister the question of the difficulties which exist now and future difficulties in regard to the planning of these facilities. I realize that much depends on the basic facilities and I am aware of the good work that is being done by Council for Culture and Recreation. They have ambitious plans which I believe will be to great advantage for the Coloured people when it comes to culture and recreational facilities. But it will be very difficult for them to carry these plans to fruition if adequate facilities do not exist. I know that the hon. the Minister is sympathetic in this regard, and I want to appeal to him most sincerely to assist further, because I believe that at the moment under the present circumstances we have difficulties in this regard. I want to give the hon. the Minister a specific case, because then I believe he will realize that this case may not be an isolated one. We have in the Wentworth complex in the Durban area a housing scheme for the Coloured people. I know, regrettably, that it has fallen behind schedule, but I believe that the intention is that nearly 1,400 houses will be built there for the Coloured people. These houses will be of a sub-economic and economic standard and also for people who wish to own their own homes.

It seems that no positive plans have been made in that housing complex to provide the facilities which I know the Council for Culture and Recreation is working for and is seeking. I want to quote to the hon. the Minister a reply I received when I made an inquiry to find out what exactly was planned for this area. This comes from the Department of Community Development and it reads as follows—

Now, bearing in mind that we have this housing scheme of 1,400-odd houses, I want to lay emphasis on the following—

My problem is, that I do not believe that a cinema will provide the recreational facilities envisaged by the Council for Culture and Recreation. I believe there must be more intensive planning in this regard, and I ask the hon. the Minister to instruct his Department to pay specific attention to this particular aspect.

Now I want to raise another aspect. I should like to seek clarity in regard to the scheme for the distribution of vitamin tablets to Coloured schoolchildren. I know that the Government has set its face against school feeding in any form, but to me this scheme which is operating for the Coloured children is a ray of hope and perhaps something which could be developed in the future. There are certain problems I have, and perhaps the Minister can help me and give me information. I understand that this scheme is a legacy from the work undertaken originally by the Cape Department of Education and it was continued on that basis and that each year funds have been made available for the purchase of vitamin tablets to be issued to undernourished and indigent Coloured schoolchildren. The information I have is that in 1964 there were 73,000 schoolchildren in the Cape Province who were benefiting from the distribution of these vitamin tablets. At the time it was said that owing to the doubtful benefits, the scheme would have to be reconsidered. In 1965 I was told that roughly 43,000 indigent children were still receiving these tablets. The tablets were over 4 million in number, their cost was just over R3,200, and the distribution cost was roughly one-tenth of that amount. Then in 1966 I was advised that this scheme was still in operation, but that as from 1st January it had been put into operation in all the provinces in the Republic. The number of tablets distributed still amounted to just over 4 million. The number of schools where distribution was effected was 557, and the number of pupils remained approximately the same at 47,000-odd. I was also told that there was no accurate assessment of the results, but that the principals of the schools reported that pupils receiving the tablets had shown improvement in health and in school work. I believe that was a very encouraging conclusion to which the principals came.

Then in 1968 I was told that the scheme was still in operation, but that it had not been found possible to follow up with research to discover the benefits which had been derived from the scheme because the costs would be high. Sir, if there is obvious benefit, I see no necessity for instituting an intensive research programme, but it seemed to me that there again there was no extension of the scheme. The expenditure had risen slightly: it was R3,780 and it was still operating on a Republic-wide basis, but no specific details were available on a provincial basis. This year on 5th May I was told, in reply to a question, that the scheme was still in operation in all provinces, that roughly 4 million tablets had been distributed, that the cost was still in the region of R3,300-odd and the cost of distribution roughly R600. But the point that puzzles me was that initially when the scheme was in operation in the Cape Province only, there were 44,000-odd pupils who benefited. Now that the scheme is operating throughout the Republic, there are still only 44,000-odd pupils benefiting and my question to the Minister is this. Is it then right to conclude that some of these indigent pupils in the Cape who used to benefit have now been deprived of this scheme in order to allow a broader distribution to the indigent children in the other provinces? I would appreciate some clarity in that regard. I appreciate very much the difficulty in assessing the results, but I want to emphasize again what I consider is the importance of the comment of the principals themselves when they emphasized an improvement in health and school work. I believe that if for such a small expenditure an appreciable and noticeable benefit can be seen in school work and in the health of these children, then I am right in asking the hon. the Minister to consider a gradual extension of this scheme, not only primarily in the Cape but in the other provinces also, and to make the tablets available to as many children as possible.

I am sure that the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, will not expect me to follow up what he said, since he discussed a few matters in which he is interested and which he put directly to the Minister.

The election of the Coloured Persons Representative Council towards the second half of this year, is a special event for us as Whites, but is particularly so for the Coloureds. In fact, I want to view it as the introduction to a new era, a new dispensation, which opens to the Coloureds a special sphere and new fields, fields to which, in the past, they could not lay any claim and could not have any hope of entering. It is in fact in that that I see the point of separate development, as the Coloureds are now, for the first time, being enabled really to be in the service of their own people. I cannot fail to see the difference between the old dispensation and the new dispensation, i.e. that those spheres which in the past were cared for by the Whites, where the Coloureds were administered along with the Whites, are now being opened to them; Coloureds may now rise in those posts, be they in the sphere of education or administration, until they reach the highest posts in those fields. In other words, the Coloureds are now being afforded the opportunity of developing themselves, of really living their lives to the full and, in actual fact, of looking after their own interests. If we look at this report of the Department of Coloured Affairs, it is striking and also gladdening to see to what extent the Coloureds are already participating in the various spheres of the life of the Coloureds. It is interesting to see to what extent they are already entering the liquor trade and commerce in general—butcheries, for instance. We are also familiar with the extent to which they have already entered the field of education, and with the tremendous privilege they have of having their own university which, after studying there, they can leave unfrustrated and without building up frustrations there, as was the case at other universities in the past, and can once again return, without a period of adjustment, to serve their own people. As I see it, this is already proof of the success of separate development as implemented by this Government.

But this great privilege which has now accrued to the Coloureds, i.e. that of assuming responsibility for themselves, places a tremendous task on the shoulders of those who have to lead the Coloureds, the Coloured leaders. To bring this responsibility home to the broad masses of the Coloured population, is definitely a task which is much greater than merely passing this on to the Coloured Persons Representative Council. Although there are many organizations which are making a point of inculcating this sense of responsibility upon the Coloureds, I think that the Department will definitely devote even more attention to this matter in the future, particularly in the sense that the Department will go out of its way to encourage those people who make contact with the Coloureds in various spheres to inculcate this sense of responsibility upon the Coloureds.

I just want to mention one single facet. We are aware that the Coloureds do in fact represent a poor section of our population, the result being that they are quite often at the receiving end of welfare services. It is quite often the case that at present the Coloureds still do not really appreciate the responsibility, i.e. that the spending of these funds should have a special significance for them, and that these funds should be spent in such a manner that it should also meet with the approval of those who make those funds available. If we think of the extent to which old-age pensions and family allowances and especially children’s allowances are quite often being mis-spent, then we feel that our people in the rural areas in particular, who are taking offence at this, do after all have some justification. I am aware that the Department is doing everything in its power to ensure that these funds are used in accordance with the purpose for which they are granted, i.e. that in the case of children’s allowances the latter should be spent on the children. We are aware that the Department is doing everything in its power to ensure that these funds are spent in the right manner, but I nevertheless feel that we may ask the Minister whether it is not possible for him to give us some more clarity in regard to the extent to which attention is being devoted to this aspect.

My time has almost expired, but I would still very much like to call attention to this one point. In this new dispensation we feel that it will perhaps be easier to-day and that it is possibly time for us to reconsider the idea of providing the Coloured children at farm schools with a certain measure of agricultural training. I should like to view this against the background that the Coloureds are not being granted the full opportunity of qualifying themselves for the work they will have to do in the future. I know that there are valid arguments to the effect that this training cannot be offered in primary schools, which is what farm schools are, but I nevertheless feel that we have here a gap which has to be filled in some way or other, especially if we consider that so many of these children from families which have lived on farms for generations, are being lost to the agricultural industry as a result of the fact that they move away to the towns. I am convinced that if something can be done in that direction— even if it did not imply changing the syllabus but merely providing in some way or other practical guidance at these farm schools—it would yield good fruit.

The hon. member who has just sat down will excuse me if I do not follow him because there is a specific matter that I wish to discuss with the Minister. This relates to a problem that is causing considerable concern to municipalities in the Eastern Cape and in particular to the City Council of Port Elizabeth. Listening to the debate here on this particular Vote, one is inclined to think that it is only in the Western Cape that we find Coloured people. I think it must be borne in mind that in the Eastern Cape we have well over 200,000 Coloured people. In fact, that figure might quite easily be exceeded if we take into account all the areas west of the Kat/Fish line. The problem to which I wish to refer is the one of finding an effective way of dealing with those idle Coloured persons who are social misfits, who as a result of alcoholism, drug addiction and other causes, have fallen by the wayside and who in ever increasing numbers are establishing themselves in shacks on the outskirts of Coloured townships. Sir, apart from the slum conditions which these people create and which arise from their social problems, they also constitute a threat to the law-abiding Coloured community who are making such a splendid effort to uplift the status of their townships. They want as much as anybody else to live their lives in peace and quiet, and I believe, therefore, that we owe it to the Coloured community to see that they are protected from elements who have failed to discipline themselves and to utilize the proper housing facilities adequately and who cause social problems by their non-conforming behaviour. Sir, there is no doubt that this problem is a socioeconomic one and that in the long term it has to be solved by providing better education, greater work opportunity, better wages and better recreational facilities. But in the meantime there must be more effective short-term action to take care of the immediate situation. This will obviously involve housing. In this particular regard I believe that great progress has been made in the Eastern Cape. I believe that in Port Elizabeth the City Council has this matter in hand, but in spite of the already spectacular completed housing programme, there is still a very considerable shortage of houses. To a certain extent this has been brought about by the fact that 80 per cent of the new houses that have been built in Port Elizabeth, had to be taken up by displaced persons under group areas removals. In addition, the present population of Port Elizabeth and the surrounding area has been increased by some 20 per cent by immigrants to the City due to lack of work opportunity in the rural areas which, as you know, Sir, are labouring at the present time under a very considerable economic set-back. A sum of R2½ million is to be spent in the next year or two to provide some 2,600 units in the Coloured townships in Port Elizabeth, and it is confidently expected that within the next four or five years some 7,500 houses, excluding private building, will be completed. Sir, although housing is an important factor, it in itself will not solve the problem to which I have drawn the hon. the Minister’s attention. Rehabilitation will have to play a very vital role indeed. As the Eastern Province is a Coloured preferential area with Port Elizabeth as the main centre, the Coloured population which is already in the vicinity of 100,000 in Port Elizabeth, is going to grow spectacularly in the years that lie ahead. I would, therefore, urgently request the hon. the Minister to provide the area with rehabilitation centres which are proving so successful here in the Western Province. These centres are not available to us at the present time in the Eastern Cape. As I have indicated, we have a very considerable Coloured population, and I think the time has arrived when the Minister must seriously consider the question of providing that area with rehabilitation centres such as those which are available at present in the Western Cape. I believe investigations by this department, by the Department of Social Welfare and by the Department of Justice, have revealed that a very real need exists in the Eastern Cape for these rehabilitation centres. I refer, of course, in the first instance, to a rehabilitation centre for adult men such as you have at Kraaifontein. This institution has to serve the whole of the Cape Province, and at the present time, to the best of my knowledge, that institution is already full. It appears to be most logical that a further expansion will have to take place, and I would say most emphatically that if further expansions have to be made it would be wise to make arrangements in the area which the centre has to serve. It would greatly facilitate visits by families to men who are detained in these particular centres. Not only do we plead for a rehabilitation centre such as you have at Kraaifontein, but when the hon. the Minister considers the building of a further Coloured cadet camp, I would ask the hon. the Minister to give the Eastern Cape very serious consideration. I want to say that I was one of those who was privileged—and I want to thank the Minister for the honour he did me in inviting me—to see the Coloured cadet camp at Faure. I must say that I was most impressed indeed with what I saw there. I can only say that I think these training centres are going to play a tremendously important part in rehabilitating young Coloured people, to equip them to play an effective role in the country’s expanding economy. Not only this, but they will also be an asset to their community and will help to overcome delinquency and other tendencies which create social problems and ultimately lead to the creation of these shack villages which are creating a great problem in the Eastern Cape. On the same basis, Sir, I think the Eastern Cape could well qualify for the establishment of a youth camp like the one which is presently proving very successful, I think, at Weltevreden.

Lastly, I want to make this plea to the hon. the Minister: He is in fact the Minister of Education in so far as the Coloured people are concerned, and in this process of rehabilitation I believe that education plays a very vital role indeed. But I am concerned over the fact that many school children—and this applies not only to Bantu school children but also to Coloured school children—are going to school to-day without having been properly fed. I am quite convinced that hungry school children simply cannot make use of the educational facilities which are afforded to them, and for that reason I believe that the money spent on education does not often yield the full benefit that it should because the children attending school are hungry. Sir, one of the most serious problems confronting the agriculture sector to-day is agricultural surpluses, and I am quite convinced that the Minister of Agriculture is not going to clamp down on production because that would be the most fatal approach that he could adopt. Therefore we have to find better ways and means of distributing the foodstuffs which are available in this country, and I can think of no better way of doing it than to channel it towards those school children who are attending school without having had a decent meal. I would ask the hon. the Minister to give this matter very serious consideration. I make this appeal to the hon. the Minister to think positively with regard to the establishment of rehabilitation centres in the Eastern Cape. I believe that with our very considerable Coloured population, a population that is going to expand tremendously within the next few years, the time to give this matter consideration is now, before some of our social problems get completely out of hand.

Before I reply to the individual requests and pleas made here, I want, right at the outset, to refer to the different interpretations by the Coloured Representatives as well as certain members on the opposite side in regard to the speech made in this House by the hon. Prime Minister earlier this year. There is for example the interpretation given to it by the hon. member for Karoo, who unfortunately, owing to an indisposition, cannot be here to-day, that this speech by the hon. the Prime Minister, in which he referred to posterity which would also have to play its part in the governing of future relationships between Coloureds and Whites, was supposedly an admission of the failure of our policy. There was another interpretation forthcoming from the other side to the effect that the hon. the Prime Minister’s reference to the youth was supposedly an indication that the National Party had no policy. I consequently think it would be a good thing to have absolute clarity on what the hon. the Prime Minister said and meant. I would just like to quote a few sentences from the speech the hon. the Prime Minister made in this House on 7th February. He said on that occasion, to use his own words, that we will be dealing with a white nation on the one hand, and a Coloured nation on the other. He also stated that we must lay the foundation now for the development and the pattern in future. He went on—with this he concluded his speech—to say that the development which would follow in this field, would take place according to the policy of separate development. It would be a pity if any person had to have any doubts in regard to what the hon. the Prime Minister envisaged in this regard. There is no question of there being any obscurity in regard to the policy of the National Party. There is a lack of clarity in regard to how it will eventually be developed further. But there is one thing no person in this House need have any doubt about, and that is that this development for the Coloureds will take place in accordance with the policy of parallel development. That is the basis of our entire pattern. How they will in future liase with this Parliament, is a matter which not only the white children but also the brown children can think about. The Prime Minister quite rightly, said that the question of liaison between the Coloured Persons’ Represenative Council and Parliament was a matter which he would leave to the Coloureds, meaning the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council. A decision would have to be taken about that. Whether it would be a select committee or a commission, might not even be the final answer. There is still the idea which Dr. Verwoerd himself expressed here, that even a commonwealth might be established. Whether it could be done will have to be decided in the future, but there is one thing nobody need have any doubts about, and that is that this liaison which will develop, will develop between parallel political bodies. That is the basis of our policy. I think it is necessary that we emphasize this aspect, i.e. that the children will also play a part in future. The hon. member for Moorreesburg was quite right in pointing out the importance of the development of a new Coloured political personality. This Coloured Persons’ Representative Council is going to introduce a new Coloured personality in this country, and it is going to confront us and particularly our children with a new relations problem, or rather a new relations situation, and for that reason it would be a good thing if our children can know in good time that we have laid the foundations for this development; that we have opened the way for them to accomplish parallel development. But we must envisage what this development will include in the future. It is going to include the fact that this Coloured Persons’ Representative Council, with its executive body, is going to occupy an important position in society, not only in the Coloured society but also in South African society. I think it is necessary for our children to realize that they must in future have the right attitude in regard to the Coloureds who are developing in this connection, and that within the framework of parallel development the necessary respect will have to be displayed towards those institutions and the people serving on those bodies. But I have also heard from the Coloured Representatives in this debate that strong exception is being taken to the discrimination which is supposedly to be found in our legislation. Exception is being taken by the hon. member for Karoo, by the hon. member for Peninsula, and the hon. member for Outeniqua has lent his support to this, to the fact that our legislation has over the years been discriminatory. I want to concede that our apartheid legislation has discriminatory aspects. But this discrimination is not merely one sided, does not emanate from the Whites towards the Coloureds. After all, it is at the same time a protective measure for the Coloureds themselves. Would the Coloured be able to develop and expand his little business without these discriminatory measures? No, Mr. Chairman, these discriminatory measures comprise the protection the young Coloured business men need to-day in order to remain viable against the more powerful, hetero-racial capital, even that of the Whites. In the social sphere it is necessary that they be protected against the numerically superior Bantu. These discriminatory measures are necessary for the protection of their group consciousness and their own identity. The Coloured leader who advocates to-day that these discriminatory measures, which include group areas, should be abolished, is doing his people an ill service. For group areas, which according to the Opposition constitute a discriminatory measure, imply sound benefits for the Coloureds in the social and economic spheres. In the intellectual-political sphere it also benefits them, because they acquire as a result a sense of place and they can realize their attachment to the soil and in this way occupy their rightful place in South Africa.

I therefore feel that there is a task awaiting our children, a task of treating these Government bodies of the Coloureds and the Coloureds themselves with the necessary respect in future, because if we as Whites expect respect, our children must also learn to show respect to the other racial groups.

Why cannot we learn to do the same.

We must all learn this, and not only learn it, but also put it into practice in our own lives. It produces quite beneficial results as far as goodwill is concerned. We can testify to that. We have received an abundance of proof of this in the implementation of our policy of parallel development. In fact, this mutual respect invests South Africa with the strength which makes it unassailable.

I want to come now to the requests of individual members. The hon. member for Peninsula appealled to the Coloureds to make use of the coming election. I am very pleased about that, and I have no doubt that his request will produce good results. He expressed concern about the possibility that the voter’s rolls might not be available in time. The Department of the Interior assured me this morning that the lists have already been typed. It is expected that this work will have been completed by the end of June. The typed lists will then, even before they have been printed, be made available to the Coloured political parties. That ought to leave them plenty of time.

The hon. member for Malmesbury expressed his thanks to the Department for the registration work being done. Of course there are other Departments and bodies to whom we also owe a vote of thanks in this connection: the Interior. Information, Police, the radio, the Press—all played their part here. We are very pleased that the registration campaign went off so well. There was a time when The Star was predicting that the registration would be a failure. It was predicted in that newspaper that only between 300,000 and 350,000 would register. In reality almost 650,000 registered. That is why this is something one is grateful for, that use was made of this registration opportunity with so much interest.

In addition the hon. member for Westdene, who apologized for not being able to be here to-day, referred to the need for giving the Coloured voter guidance in so far as the polling procedure is concerned. If one thinks how few of those 650.000 ever voted in the past, one can understand that they must be afforded an opportunity of being instructed. I can inform him that we are already engaged in this. We have asked the Department of Information to be of assistance. The Department has made a film with the title “This is how one votes”, which has already been shot and in which Coloured voters play a role, even at the polls. This film is almost complete now. We intend distributing it throughout the country so that it can be shown in all Coloured bioscopes. In that way it ought to be possible to instruct the Coloureds in this regard. Over and above that, the Department is engaged in drawing up a brochure on a question and answer pattern in regard to the various questions which a voter may perhaps put. In reply to his additional questions, whether it is going to be published in Alpha, I can give him the assurance that this is going to be done. The hon. member also pleaded that Alpha which at present has a circulation of 15,000, should be expanded. I can also assure him that this is being considered at present.

The hon. member for Mossel Bay made an appeal, on the basis of the misuse of liquor among our Coloureds in particular, that research be undertaken, if need be at our universities, to inquire into the causes of this. I just want to inform the hon. member that this is one of the matters into which the research has been instituted to such a thorough extent now, that one doubts whether even further research is necessary. I have here in my hand a list of 13 publications, research works on the question of the drinking habits of Coloureds which have been published. I think that we have now reached the stage where one feels that we already have a lot of information. We now have a great deal of knowledge and information. One should rather proceed now to the intensification of the treatment process. It appears from all these research works that in the treatment process one should preferably treat the Coloureds in a preventative way than, say, undertake the rehabilitation of a drunkard. In that regard we can all do a great deal. Members put in pleas here to-day for various forms of welfare services and recreational activities. We already have the example of Vlaeberg in the constituency of the hon. member for Stellenbosch That, I think, is the field which we can now enter with far better results than to give our attention to further research. Not that I am being derogatory in regard to it, but we now have this wealth of information. We know the problem is that they do not really have any programme for spending their leisure time. While that is the case, I think that we should rather concentrate on organizing their free time to better effect, of helping them with various activities, which are known to us all, and in this way perhaps getting them so far as to develop another living pattern and national pattern.

In this connection we have also lent a hand by way of a film. The National Film Board has had a film made by the name of “Johnny”, which has already been showing for some time in Coloured bioscopes, to emphasize the question of the abuse of liquor. I saw this film myself and found it particularly striking as a very effective means of bringing home this disadvantage of abuse of liquor in a fitting way. The intention is that this film will be followed by one which will perhaps place emphasis on positive factors, which will show how a person can be useful to society if he is able to resist those evils. I really want to suggest that we, and not only the State, but all those who have an interest and who are interested, will concentrate on intensifying this preventative programme of action for the Coloureds. This to a large extent, also serves as a reply to the plea made here by the hon. member for Sea Point.

In regard to the cadet centre, I am very pleased that so much praise was expressed for this centre. The only person I did not hear expressing any praise was the hon. member for Houghton. To her way of thinking it is probably still a “forced labour camp”, as she described it here in the debate last year. I do hope the hon. member will still find occasion to go and have a look at it. It is not far from here. One can reach it in quite a short time. She can then go and have a look at what that “forced labour camp” looks like. Perhaps she will find that her impressions coincide with those of her bench-fellow and other colleagues. This training centre is a show piece which was established to render a very useful service, of which the Coloureds themselves are very proud. Hence the pleas we have received, inter alia, from the hon. member for Malmesbury and others, who wants us to establish as many as five or six similar centres. The hon. member for Walmer, the last speaker, made a plea to the effect that we should establish one in Port Elizabeth as well. This is a matter which I feel is very deserving; but for the sake of fairness we will at least have to give it a chance for a year, so that it can prove itself properly, before the State can proceed to establish the next one. Then, I think, those places where there are large concentration of Coloureds such as Port Elizabeth must obviously come into consideration for such a centre. But at this stage we feel that we should at least give this institution a chance to grow.

The hon. member for Houghton was concerned about the appeal I made the other day, and in which I referred, inter alia, to police raids. If she had read the appeal properly, she would have seen that I had not stated that they would be carried out, but I did say that they would be considered if the legal provisions were not obeyed. She has already received the figures which I furnished in reply to a question. It has also been mentioned here already that only a little more than 2.000 reacted, while it should in fact be 15,000. This is a circumvention of the Act. It is a matter which the Coloured leaders are displeased about. Hon. members also saw how Dr. Morkel and Mr. Le Fleur expressed opinions condemning this, and did not disapprove of this appeal which I made with the possibility of police raids being carried out later on. For that reason this is a matter which we will in fact consider in future, i.e. if there is no response to these appeals.

In addition the question of schools and hostels was raised by the hon. member for Malmesbury. Other hon. members also referred to it. They pleaded for schools, and particularly hostels in the rural areas with the purpose of keeping the Coloureds in the rural areas. We realize to the full the need for the provision of education in the rural areas as a means of keeping the Coloured children there. We realize to the full the need for providing education in the rural areas as a means of keeping the Coloured child there. For that reason many schools are being established on farms now in implementation of this policy and conviction of ours. If there is no church or other body capable of establishing the buildings, the State itself will erect the school buildings, as well as the accommodation for teachers. All that we desire is that the farmers make the grounds available to us, which we can of course rent from him.

As far as hostels are concerned, the hon. member for Malmesbury expressed himself greatly in favour of our establishing country hostels in remote areas, not only for high schools but also for primary schools. The hon. member for Gardens also expressed an opinion in this regard and pleaded for hostels for primary school children. The State wants to tackle this matter in a way which will bring about the establishment of these hostels for us in the following order of priority: Firstly, at each multi-stream high school; secondly, at every country high school; and thirdly, at primary schools in the sparsely populated country areas. In this way I hope that we will in fact be able to contribute to keeping the Coloureds in the rural areas.

The hon. member for Sea Point also made a plea for vocational training for the country children. I can inform that hon. member that we are at present considering the possibility of including a subject like agriculture into this multi-stream pattern as such at these schools. With this I am also replying to one of the last speakers who pleaded for this. The other subjects include domestic science, commerce, technical subjects, and so on. This is a matter which is therefore receiving consideration at the moment.

The hon. member for Wynberg referred to the high percentage of the expenditure by the C.D.C. on liquor concerns and hotels. This gives quite a distorted impression. The hon. member has the figures correct, but I am afraid the impression is distorted. In the past one had the problem that the drinking localities for Coloureds were in the white areas. This applied to the hotels as well. With the establishment of Coloured group areas the problem was that there were none of the necessary drinking facilities in these areas. The Liquor Commission therefore came forward with proposals that the drinking pattern of the Coloureds should be changed. It had to be changed by for example introducing the restaurant idea where they could buy food together with the liquor. The result of this has been that the Coloured Development Corporation had to intervene immediately in order to assist with the financing necessary for the establishment of those kind of drinking localities where a new drinking pattern could be introduced. When I visited those drinking places in the Cape Flats a year or two ago I was really impressed by the orderly and acceptable way in which the Coloured persons there were behaving themselves. Because we had to tackle this matter first, it seems as if the C.D.C. is concentrating on liquor matters. However, this is no fair representation.

The hon. member for Sea Point also mentioned homes for the aged in the rural areas. I can give him the assurance that the Department is taking an interest in this matter. We are always prepared to lend generous assistance to organizations in regard to those establishments. Of course, the demand must be such that such institutions are fully justified. The hon. member must kindly forward those requests to the Department. We will surely consider them.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout asked quite a number of questions. The hon. member should in future make an attacking speech because there would then be less for me to reply to. Now he has asked so many questions instead of making a speech that we will have to get down to his questions. The hon. member asked, inter alia, for details in regard to the amount of R36 which appears on one of the schedules and which was paid to a teacher. The reply is that female needlework teachers receive R42 and R36 per year in the rural areas for part-time instruction of approximately one hour per week. For that one hour per week, R36 is regarded as being quite fair. In addition the hon. member asked a question in regard to Coloured children who were working. This is a matter which belongs under the Vote of the Department of Labour. The same Act applies to both, whether one is a Coloured or a white child, i.e. that if they are under the age of 15 they may not work in shops, nor may they work in factories if they are under the age of 15. There is of course an exception, and that is in respect of children who sell newspapers. That does not fall under one of the wage measures. As you know, that is a job which lasts only an hour or two. That is a separate matter. If there are children working in shops who are younger than 15, or in factories who are younger than 15, then it is a matter which the hon. member can certainly report to our Police so that it may be investigated. In addition the hon. member asked what chiefs appeared under the South-West Africa Coloured Affairs Vote. These are the chiefs of the Namas.

I think I should also furnish an immediate reply to the other question the hon. member put in regard to the Rehoboths and others in South-West Africa. The Rehoboths, Namas and Coloureds there, I have all visited. I have held conversations with them all. The impression I gained, in the few days I was with the Rehoboths, was that there was a great need for development in the Rehoboth territory. It is a beautiful territory, as the hon. member knows. He previously represented a constituency in that part of the world. It is among the best pasturage in South-West Africa. But there is a great deal of neglect. There is no fencing or enclosed paddocks. The situation is therefore one which requires development. I have also found in my conversations with Rehoboth leaders that there is a great need for this among them, and that they would welcome State assistance. Opposed to that there is another group among them which is distrustful in regard to anything the Whites or the Administration or the Government wants to undertake. To that the South-West Administration and the hon. member for Windhoek, who is chairman of a committee of inquiry that did valuable work in regard to the Rehoboth matter, can fully testify. The question now is whether one should allow this development, which is essential, to wait until the constitutional struggle has eventually been finalized. The hon. the Prime Minister met the Rehoboth Bastard Council earlier this year. On that occasion he invited them to draw up their own constitution. Since 1923 already they have been engaged in drawing up a constitution. A constitution is drawn up and is then negatived by the citizens. It is simply impossible to make progress with this matter. Then the hon. the Prime Minister invited them to draw up a constitution which will give them self-government. He even offered to make Government lawyers available to assist them with the drafting of that constitution. That invitation stands. But at the same time the development for the sake of those in the Rehoboth territory who want it and who need it must continue. With a view to that the Secretary for Coloured Affairs is in Rehoboth to-day. He is to day once again addressing the Bastard Council of the Rehoboths in regard to the plans we have. I hope to be able to issue a statement within the next 10 days which may perhaps answer many of the questions the hon. member wanted to put, arising out of what the Government will be able to do in this connection and at this stage.

In regard to the Coloureds of South-West I can give hon. members a very favourable report. I met the Coloured Persons Council of South-West and experienced among them the greatest goodwill towards the Republic and the Government. In fact, it was so great that they were in fact eager to obtain representation on the Coloured Persons Representative Council. Hon. members know that according to the White Paper South-West is being granted only one representative. However, they desire to have more. I said to them that this was a matter they could discuss with the council, when it was established. I do not think it is fair that any change be effected at this stage. As far as the Namas are concerned, Sir, you will recall that according to the Odendaal Report Namaland has in fact been increased in size. It has been increased in size twofold as a result of the white farms which have been bought out. It is now a large territory, with Gibeon as their capital. There I also met the chiefs. I can also testify that they displayed the greatest goodwill towards us and our officials. The hon. member also asked whether the title, Minister of Rehoboth Affairs, will be used. When I deal with Rehoboth matters, I shall be termed that.

The hon. member for Swellendam referred to the question of social pensions and the abuse thereof. I can just inform him that the Department has for the past year-and-a-half been engaged in a very intensive plan of action aimed at eliminating the abuses. According to replies which I have already furnished in this House, we have already achieved a great deal of success in that regard. We are continuing, with the assistance of the Police and other bodies, together with the persons who have complained, to iron out these matters. I join the hon. member in thinking that these pension abuses are not in the interests of the good race relations which ought to exist.

I come now to the hon. member for Moorreesburg. He asked for a kind of Tomlinson Commission. One is of course never averse to making inquiries and gaining knowledge, but there is undoubtedly a great difference between this present position and the position in respect of the Bantu matters which the Tomlinson Commission went into. The Tomlinson Commission was appointed before there was a Transkeian Parliament, and before there were territorial authorities. That commission helped to a large extent to assemble that information, and it was also of assistance in regard to the policy which has ultimately been formulated now. To-day the position is a different one. Here we are on the verge of achieving an additional administration for Coloured Affairs. Under the commissionership of Mr. Gaum, we are now going to obtain an administration for Coloured Affairs. In addition we have the Department of Coloured Relations. In other words, we have now reached an administrative stage where we have at our disposal the largest possible administrative machine. This administrative machine has at its disposal the necessary knowledge. That development has already taken place now. But in addition we also have the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council, Which is to be established. I really believe that this Coloured Persons’ Council should be afforded an opportunity of reflecting on its major problems itself. Whether it is a question of a homeland or homeland areas, that council must reflect on the problems. As I stated at the last meeting of the Coloured Persons’ Council, it is a matter on which the Coloureds must also reflect now. We as Whites have always done the Coloureds’ thinking for them. We shall still continue to help them to think, but I really do think that we should afford the Coloureds the opportunity, by means of their statutory and administrative bodies, of also making a contribution. That does not mean to say that we will not reach a stage where we will feel that there is nevertheless a need for this, but I really think that at this stage it is a matter which we can safely leave in the hands of the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council which is still to be established. The hon. member for Wynberg wanted to know whether there could not perhaps, as a result of these two Departments which are now going to be established, be duplication, and whether there would not be any duplication between this administration and the provincial administrations. That is in fact the objective with the establishment of the Department of Coloured Relations, namely to prevent such duplication. The Department of Coloured Relations will to a large extent be a liaison department between the administration and other Government Departments and the provincial administrations. It ought to be possible to prevent the problem which the hon. member foresees by means of this machinery.

The hon. member also pleaded for the expansion of welfare services. I can just inform the hon. member that it is the intention that the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council, as one of its first measures, shall pass a measure dealing with social services. The Department has already drafted this, and it is being kept in preparation for the consideration of the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council. If they are satisfied with it, it will be given to them to introduce as one of their first legislative measures.

The hon. member for Houghton was also concerned about the question of co-ordination among the various departments. I can inform her that we are in fact, with a view to the danger that there may not perhaps be sufficient co-ordination, establish a permanent committee for the re-settlement of Coloureds throughout the Republic. The four departments serving on that committee are the Department of Planning, Community Development, Labour and Coloured Affairs. During the past week the Ministers of these Departments have convened for the purpose of actually reorganizing this permanent committee and placing it in future under the guidance of the Department of Coloured Affairs. One of our senior officials will be in charge of that committee, and the hon. member can therefore deduce that this ought to bring about the necessary co-ordination.

The hon. member for Berea asked whether more could not be done in regard to recreational facilities. The hon. member serves on the Council for Culture and Recreation for the Coloureds, and as he knows, it is one of the tasks of the local authorities to be of assistance in this respect. The Council for Culture and Recreation is of course still prepared to render the necessary financial assistance in this regard. All that is necessary is that those bodies should furnish us with the necessary information. The hon. member also put a question in regard to vitamin tablets. This service is being undertaken by the Department of Health. The Department of Coloured Affairs is only exercising control, and pays for the service. The onus is on school principals to apply for the provision of tablets to the schools concerned, and the Department of Health indicates whether they approve an application. The expansion of the service therefore depends upon the fundamental need for the tablets and the applications from school principals.

The hon. member for Walmer put in a plea for a rehabilitation centre near Port Elizabeth. We have already considered this matter on a previous occasion. The city council of Port Elizabeth has also addressed representations to us in this connection already. It is therefore not a new request which is being addressed to us. The question of such a rehabilitation centre near Port Elizabeth, similar to the De Novo rehabilitation centre in Kraaifontein, is a matter which one considers with quite a good deal of trepidation, because one wonders whether this is the basic requirement. The hon. member referred to people who were inclined to abuse liquor, and also to people who had been warned, and so on. The plea for a training centre at Port Elizabeth is perhaps more substantiated, for the De Novo rehabilitation centre at Kraaifontein has 38 people who came from the Eastern Cape. But apart from that we decided a year or two ago to establish a second rehabilitation centre at Wellington. The plans have already been drawn up, and the hon. member will realize that we cannot at this stage establish such a centre at Port Elizabeth as well. That is why I think that these two rehabilitation centres will in the meantime have to be used by the Eastern Cape for their inebriates. For the rest it remains our task to cope with this problem on the preventative level, as I said in my former reply. Mr. Chairman, I think that that covers the matters which were raised.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister unfortunately did not reply to me in regard to two points I raised. The one deals with population registration under the South-West Africa Estimates, and the other is the question of the training of Coloured doctors in Afrikaans.

I am afraid that we cannot reply to the first matter the hon. member raised now.

Would the hon. the Minister reply to the question if I placed it on the Order Paper?

Yes, that is not a bad idea. The training of Coloured doctors is a matter that is receiving attention from us. In fact, we are now acquiring land for the establishment of a medical school for Coloureds in Bellville. During the past week or so 80 morgen adjoining the present university college has been acquired by the Department of Community Development for a medical school for the Coloureds in this area. But, as the hon. member can understand, the establishment of a medical school is a process which can take years. In the meantime the Universities of Cape Town and Stellenbosch will help with the provision of this training.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 30.—Bantu Administration and Development, R46,225,000, Loan Vote N. —Bantu Administration and Development, R59,100,000, and S.W.A. Vote 14,—Bantu Administration and Development, R12,674,000:

Mr. Chairman, may I ask for the privilege of the half hour? The Nationalist Party is beset with race prejudices. Just lately there has been concentration on White prejudice and the rallying of the prejudiced by exploiting the so-called “liberalism” of the English. For obvious reasons it is not so easy or wise to appeal openly to white prejudice. Therefore, it is done cunningly by using the field of religious dogma to show that one section of the white race thinks liberally towards the black races. Therefore, the suggested dilution of the Afrikaans-speaking Nationalist Party with English-speaking people will endanger the outlook and the policies of the Nationalist Party Government towards the African people. The attitude of the Prime Minister and the Cabinet towards the different race groups is causing concern. It is getting close scrutiny. The question everyone is asking is whether the Prime Minister will ride the storm. Does the Prime Minister know where he is going and does the Cabinet know where the Government is going with regard to race policies? After recent clashes in this House on the Prime Minister’s Vote and in the Other Place on this policy of the Prime Minister, we are justified in wondering where exactly this Government now stands. If there is any uncertainty about the Prime Minister, then there must be uncertainty about the future of this Government and its policy as well. We have for long been saying that the rank and file of the Nationalist Party do not believe that the Government will carry out its Bantu policy as propounded in this Assembly. Although the late Dr. Verwoerd made it clear that it was his intention to carry out separation through to its logical conclusion, to give the reserves sovereign independence and to take back Bantu to the reserves, to the homelands as he called them, the people did not believe him. We have been saying that. After disclosures made by the hon. the Minister of Defence last year in this House that although Dr. Verwoerd was promising the Coloureds and telling the world that the Coloureds would not lose their parliamentary representation, we heard that in fact he was saying directly the opposite to one of his Ministers. Bearing this in mind, the Government cannot blame the country if it is suspicious about any policy statements made by its Ministers on race problems.

We know that the verkramptes in the Nationalist Party …

Oh dear!

I suppose they got together, but the cartoon in one of the newspapers which asked, “In a merger, who takes over, the verkramptes or the verligtes?” was very good. There is no doubt about it that the Prime Minister and the other leaders have certainly lost face. [Interjections.]

Order! What has that got to do with this Vote?

We do not know where we stand. The country does not know where it stands with the Prime Minister.

That has nothing to do with this Vote.

But the Prime Minister surely lays down this policy. We doubt whether the Prime Minister knows what the policy is.

Dr. Verwoerd always envisaged a commonwealth between white South Africa and the seven or eight small black independent states. However, Chief Kaiser Matanzima, we see, has different ideas. He talks of one black nation and one big black federal state which will talk with the South African Government on equal terms. Bearing that in mind, we should like to know from this Minister whether the intention still is to proceed with this policy of independence. Having been told by the Government that it has no solution for the Coloured problem, there is concern amongst Nationalists themselves about whether the Government has any solution for the Bantu problem. The development of the reserves are fundamental to the Government policy. It is fundamental to Dr. Verwoerd’s policy. After all, he was the architect of separate development. It was his idea that the Africans should be taken from the white areas back to the reserves. But what do we hear now? Is that still the policy that the Africans are to go back? We now hear that numbers do not count. They are important, but they are not decisive. I should like to quote from a leading article of a Nationalist newspaper which illustrates the absurdity of the position; which illustrates just how worried Nationalists themselves are becoming about this policy and which has justified the attacks we have made on the policy from the time when it was first announced that it was impractical and that it would not be carried out. This article is dated 2nd March, 1969, and the heading is “Dit deug nie”. It reads as follows:

Which paper is that?

It is Die Beeld. I think you have heard of it. [Interjections.] I will start again—

That is the Prime Minister.

The article reads further:

It goes on to say:

They use this article to attack the Deputy Minister of Justice. However, two days after this article appeared the Prime Minister made the same statement in the Other Place. The Minister had made the statement before. Why the poor Deputy Minister alone must be picked on at this stage I do not know, because the hon. the Minister had made a similar statement before. Everything they say in this article about Advocate Froneman’s argument applies to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Bantu Affairs. They say:

This Prime Minister and this Government are now “hands upping” at every difficult problem and leaving it to our children. The article goes on to say:

It is dangerous to suggest that separation is not necessary for a separate policy.

Separation without separation.

Why the people are worried and why the Government is now announcing that numbers although important do not count, is because there will always be numbers in the white areas unless the Government can take them out and they can only take them out by developing the reserves. I want to ask if it is still the Government’s policy, after these statements have been made in fact, to take the Bantu to the reserves. Dr. Verwoerd said that he expected the turn to take place in 1978, but I think Mr. De Wet Nel said it would be in 1976. These two gentlemen spoke a lot about the separate development of the reserves. It is 14 years since the Tomlinson Commission reported and precious little has been done in that time. The latest critic is the Commissioner-General of the Transkei who should know. Last year he criticized the development and this year he has done so again. He pointed out that it is neither scientific nor profitable to enforce economic development where economic growth does not exist. We have also had the report of the Xhosa Development Corporation. This is a corporation which was brought into being to develop the reserves. It points out that agricultural production under existing conditions has shown no appreciable advance. It says that despite the painstaking devotion and energies of the officials concerned, the output is below the potential of the area and is below that of comparable areas in the Republic. They say that the improved concessions of the Government on the basis of those applicable to border areas will not provide sufficient assistance. In the opinion of the corporation additional concessions such as lower transport tariffs and tax reductions will be necessary in order to create competitive industries. This was reported in the latest report of the corporation which was brought into being to develop the reserves. It has become obvious that border industries are not the answer, and it is also obvious that the Bantu cannot bring about sufficient development on his own. We have heard from the hon. the Prime Minister that we must not develop faster than the Bantu himself can absorb. But the hon. the Deputy Minister of Justice, who seems to be the chief spokesman on Bantu Affairs, especially for the Rapportryers who all want him, provided that he tells them the things they want to hear, said the following:

The hon. the Prime Minister says that it will not happen in his time or our time and now the hon. the Deputy Minister talks about centuries. If we have to rely on the Bantu themselves, there will be no development. There can be no development. The Government has also announced an agency plan. They want Whites to go into the reserves on an agency system. This in itself is a departure from Dr. Verwoerd’s policy. When Dr. Verwoerd was asked about the investing of white capital in the reserves, he said that he was not going to allow White capital into the reserves at all, because if you took White capital in, you would want white management; if you took white management, you would want white staff; if you took white staff you would want white wives and their children; you would then have to have schools, schoolmasters, churches and ministers and therefore a white community again. His policy was to get rid of the Whites. The fact that white capital is now going to be taken into the reserves on an agency basis, is contrary to what Dr. Verwoerd said. I want to know from this hon. Minister whether it is considered to be his duty to develop the reserves or whether he considers it to be a burden. We have had two Deputy Ministers speaking with two voices. On the one hand we have the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration who made an excellent speech at George, where he said that he regarded it as his duty and that of the country, that the reserves should be developed. On the other hand we have the speech by the hon. the Deputy Minister of Justice at Stellenbosch to the Rapportryers, where he spoke differently. He told the audience there of the magnitude of the task. He said that accommodation and work do not have to be provided for all the Bantu; all of them do not have to be removed from the white areas, but only the superfluous. They are those not gainfully employed, the wives, the children, the elders and the idlers.

You are slanting it.

I am not slanting a thing. I have the exact speech handed out by the Minister of Information. He repeated that the removal of these superfluous appendages was not dependent on the development of the homelands because they were dependants and not the workers, and all the Government had to do was to supply housing facilities for them. At any rate, he showed some humanitarianism there. He estimated that in 1960 there were 3.8 million odd of these people. There are many more now of these superfluous people, and in considering the magnitude of the task, and remembering that they increase every year, the task becomes greater every year. Just in case any of the Rapportryers thought that he and the Nationalist Government were to blame for these “oortolliges”, he set their minds at rest by saying—

The hon. member has been in Parliament for a long time and he was Deputy Chairman of the Native Affairs Commission. He is not a newcomer here and he should know better. I hope he was not deliberately misleading those Rapportryers. What did section 10 of the 1945 Act passed by the United Party contain? It gave the Governor-General the right, if requested by an urban area, to prohibit the entry of Bantu into urban areas, and he could also lay down conditions under which those who were there could stay there. Who introduced the provision that they could stay there and have citizenship rights and that they could stay there for 10 years if they worked for one employer or if they had worked for 15 years for different employers and were born there? Who gave them that right? It was Dr. Verwoerd. In 1952 Dr. Verwoerd amended that Act and what did the Deputy Minister say? He said this—

The architect of separate development, Dr. Verwoerd, introduced that measure, and this Deputy Minister tells them that it does not fit in, and he says further—

Sir, are they thinking of tampering with it, and if they are, there is no doubt that the Verwoerdites will attack them, because thinking people know that Dr. Verwoerd himself introduced it. [Interjections.] He blames the United Party for the maintenance on the Statute Book of this provision treating people as citizens and in case some of the Rapportryers were critical of the employment of Bantu in white areas, he provides them with balm for their consciences. To those who asked whether they had to say farewell to the implementation of separate development because of the need for Bantu labour in the white areas, he said no, not at all. The use of foreign black labour, he said, was not in conflict with separate development, provided there were four conditions applied to it; firstly, that they were not to become domiciled and obtain citizenship rights, secondly, that they were not encumbered with their superfluous appendages like wives, children and other dependants; thirdly, that their numbers did not become uncontrollable; and fourthly, that the labour force would not be used to the detriment of the white labour force. Sir, can anyone imagine a more callous and shocking approach? The labour force, despite section 10, has been migrant and under his policy it will be completely migrant with all its economic and social evils. The Deputy Minister and other Ministers, when talking of charitable organizations and churches in the past who protested against the treatment of the Africans in the urban areas, referred to these people as “do-gooders”, and it has become a term of contempt. Sir, the “do-gooders” are not only the English churches and organizations now, but the Afrikaans churches are coming out also against this system of migrant labour, so they are also becoming “do-gooders” now. The Cape Town Municipality just recently was put in this embarrassing position that it had to decide, in discussing its male Bantu hostels, whether to have prostitution and venereal disease or homosexuality and rape. That is what it has come down to. The Deputy Minister completely closes his eyes to the fact that there are probably millions of Africans who are already domiciled in the white areas.

And what about the thousands of mineworkers who were migrant labourers over the years? [Interjections.]

They have no other home. That was why Dr. Verwoerd gave them protection. The Government does not intend relieving the Africans of their obligations as South African citizens. They suggest giving them dual citizenship, but they regard them as South African citizens. They made them South African citizens. Sir, it is not section 10 which made them South African citizens, and those people will have that citizenship no matter what they may say. Then the Deputy Minister insists on controlling their numbers. Sir, these numbers are controlled now. Influx control was introduced in 1945 to control their numbers, but he wishes to control them in an unsympathetic and inhumane manner, making physical use of their bodies from year to year and replacing them irrespective of whether they are needed and whether they need the work or not: all they will be is a cog in the labour machine. His fourth condition is that they must not be a threat to the white labour force. They will not be a threat unless the Government carries out its policy of training Bantu labour in the border areas in competition with white workers. Then they will become a threat, but not otherwise, because there is a shortage of labour now. In case there were some of the audience who were still uneasy about the continued employment of such large numbers, he produced his ace card. He asked them to consider and give their thoughts to the fact that without this labour force we could not maintain our economic growth of 5 per cent per annum. Without that growth he said we could not afford to spend R250 million on defence, and he did not believe that any right-thinking Afrikaner would suggest that we should reduce this amount. He said that without that economic growth we could not educate our youth, nor afford the technical or technological education of our people; and above all he said without that economic growth we could not finance the policy of separate development. [Interjections.] I am reading a translation of what he said. These, he said, were the sober facts. They are sober facts, Sir, and these are the facts we have been telling the country all along. You cannot do without that labour; you will not have that economic growth without that Bantu labour in the white areas. You cannot do the things he is talking about without that labour. They said we were all wrong, but now they are preparing the people to accept that labour force, to accept the Bantu in the white areas. They say that numbers do not count, but what a selfish way it is of putting it, because they do not consider the interests of the black people at all; they are only considering the interests of the white people, appealing to that particular audience for support. Sir, Dr. Verwoerd and Mr. De Wet Nel, when stating their policy for the development of the Reserves and their ideas for removing the Natives, always put it on a humanitarian basis. They spoke loftily about ideals and appealed to us to have ideals and to help these people. Now we want to know from this Minister what his ideas are. When does he think, if ever, will the Native population be taken back to the Reserves? Is it still the policy? Why are they preparing the people now? Why do they keep on making speeches about numbers not really counting? Is it because they have abandoned that policy and do not intend taking them back any more? Is it that they now admit the failure of their policy in regard to the development of the Reserves? I challenge the Minister or any hon. member to tell us what is happening about the development of the Reserves, and how many more people are being employed there. There is nothing happening at all, and the Bantu people cannot be employed there. You only have to look at the numbers of the Bantu being taken out of the Reserves every year to work in the white areas. [Interjections.] That hon. member has so much to say, but he must know that the white areas are getting blacker and blacker. And what about the farms? Why did the Deputy Minister when addressing the Rapportryers not talk about the people on the farms? What is going to happen to their wives and children? Are they not going to be allowed to stay on the farms? Are they superfluous, too, and must they also be sent back to the Reserves? And where is all the money going to come from to house all the superfluous people in the Reserves if there is no provision made there for the employment of any of them? [Interjection.] It is the same old story, but it is so true and we have been saying all along that this policy is a fraud and a bluff. Die Beeld and other papers are also saying: “We are not bluffed by this story that numbers do not count.” It is time that the Government now faces the facts and lets us know.

But what is your policy?

You know what our policy is. But I am not discussing our policy now. We are trying to make the people realize that this Government has no policy. The policy of the Government for the Bantu is as bad as it is for the Coloureds. The Prime Minister has had the honesty to admit that he does not know what will happen to the Coloureds in future; he hopes our grandchildren will solve the problem. As far as the Bantu are concerned, they just talk and theorize, but when it comes to applying it they fail. The trouble is that the policy of separate development was enunciated by Dr. Verwoerd; he was its architect. He told them all about it and he gave them the blueprint as to how to set about it, but unfortunately he passed away. Now this Cabinet is left with the task of carrying it out and they do not know how to carry it out. They are failing as Dr. Verwoerd would have failed. We told him he could not do it and this Government is failing also, because it cannot carry out that policy. The sooner they admit it and face up to the fact and make a change in their policy and admit that the Bantu are living here permanently in the white areas and let them enjoy a normal family life in the white areas, the better. [Interjections.] They are going to live here in any event. But under their policy they want them to live there for a year so that they can go back again, with all those social evils. Why not face up to the fact and let them have their families living with them; those who are permanently urbanized? Why not give them a stake in the country and let them have their own homes in their own townships? The sooner the Government faces the facts and realizes that it will have to accept our policy in regard to the Bantu, as it has done in so many other instances to their advantage, the better for them and the country.

Mr. Chairman, I think you will have the greatest sympathy with me this afternoon, because I do not know where to start replying to the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. The hon. member is the chief spokesman of the United Party on this important matter. I can only say that it astonishes me to find that this is the knowledge the hon. member has in regard to this most important problem. As I have said, I do not know where to start replying to him.

Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Yeoville is trying to squash everything by exclaiming, “Hear, hear!”, and he is trying to hide his embarrassment by doing so. Sir, we are dealing here with an important problem. The hon. member for Transkei came along and asked this question: What about the Bantu woman and the Bantu child on the farms, for instance; is it our intention that these Bantu should remain on the farms as single persons? Unequivocally I say here this afternoon that the United Party does not only have a lack of knowledge, but that they are also being wilful in this regard. It is possible for them to ascertain the policy of this Government any day, and here we find the chief spokesman of the United Party making such absurd statements! [Interjections.] Sir, let me tell the hon. member for East London (City) that he may still keep servants on his farm and in his town house. He may still keep a Bantu woman with her family on his farm.

But not in a city.

What change has been brought about?

But now they are redundant.

Why did the hon. member for Transkei advance this argument?

He merely stated the truth according to the Deputy Minister.

I say that that is not true; I have just given you the facts. If the hon. member wishes to draw that conclusion from what the hon. the Deputy Minister of Planning has said, then he is free to do so, but he must read and interpret that speech as a whole, and then he will obtain a different picture of the situation.

What about the 3,800,000 who are redundant?

Sir, the greatest single dividing factor between the United Party and the National Party is to be found in their different approaches to the position of the Bantu in South Africa. It is quite clear that these two standpoints of the United Party and the National Party are under no circumstances reconcilable, especially after this afternoon. Just imagine, Sir, that an hon. member speaks here this afternoon about Bantu Administration and about verkramptes, in the same breath. See how bankrupt they are! They staked all their money on a split in the National Party, and now it is a question of sour grapes; they were mistaken. Sir, in 1948 the electorate of South Africa gave this Government a clear mandate, and that mandate is that distinctive separate development for the various population groups in this country should be implemented. That is the great mandate that was given to this side of the House.

And you have ridden it to death.

Time and again at elections the electorate emphasized this in no uncertain terms. Now the hon. member says here this afternoon that the Nationalists no longer know what apartheid is and that it is not being implemented. I want to make this statement here to-day: What the policy of the National Party claims for the white man of South Africa, is undamaged survival here at the southernmost tip of the continent of Africa. The policy of the National Party must be implemented, regardless of what it may cost; it must be implemented since it is the only way to protect the white man here. The policy of the National Party does not only grant survival to the white man here on the southernmost tip of the continent of Africa, but also to the Bantu in South Africa. I do not wish to suggest that our policy is without difficult angles. In fact, it definitely involves some nagging problems. My plea is that we as Whites in South Africa should solve these nagging problems jointly. There were problems in the past and there will perhaps be greater problems in the future, but we as Whites must necessarily cope jointly with those problems which crop up and which will necessarily crop up in the future as well. This is a challenge to every white man in South Africa. From any individual, no matter to what political party he may belong, this requires greater things than mere politicking. If the United Party does not want to contribute its share towards thinking in terms of bigger things, then the National Party will, as it has done over the past 21 years, carry out this task on its own and do so in no uncertain manner.

When are you going to start carrying out this task?

Sir, permit me in the few minutes I have left to extend a special word of thanks to my predecessor in the office I hold to-day, i.e. that of Deputy-Chairman of the Bantu Affairs Commission. It is with praise and appreciation that I want to bear witness on behalf of this side of the House to the great things he did while holding that office for many years. Along with him I want to mention the hon. member for Krugersdorp, who was a member of the Bantu Affairs Commission. We are expressing our appreciation for those services they rendered. Sir, you will also permit me, as newcomer to this Department, to tell you briefly what I found in this Department. Reference was made here to the late Dr. Verwoerd as the person who laid down this policy. Rather derogatory remarks were made here about the present hon. Minister, but I want to say this here this afternoon: It would be a good thing for any person who does not know this hon. Minister intimately, to make a point of improving his acquaintance with him, because we on this side of the House say that he has accepted this supreme task in the Republic of South Africa with devotion and with dedication. He does not permit himself any rest, by day or by night, in carrying out this task, and that is why I say that this task is in the hands of a good person. I cannot help mentioning in addition the two hon. Deputy Ministers who are assisting him. South Africa will thank them for the way in which they are carrying out this unenviable task of theirs, especially in view of the fact that one has to deal with an Opposition such as this one. I shall go further by telling the United Party and South Africa this afternoon that the Secretary for the Department and all his officials are people who are carrying out this difficult task with dedication. I am merely asking one thing in respect of these people who are working together as a team to carry out this difficult task, i.e. that the Opposition will take this into account and not come here with absurd arguments as the hon. member for Transkei did this afternoon.

Mr. Chairman … [Interjections.]

Order! I only called upon the hon. member for King William’s Town to speak.

It surprised me this afternoon that a Whip of the Government Party, a leader of a province, a Deputy-Chairman of the Bantu Affairs Commission, could get up here and talk such nonsense. The hon. member contradicted his own Deputy Minister here. How can we understand the policy of the Government under these circumstances? The hon. member took it amiss of the hon. member for Transkei that he quoted figures here which had been mentioned by the hon. the Deputy Minister of Justice. According to him, we do not know what their policy is and so he presented the policy. On page 29 of his speech to the Rapportryers the hon. the Deputy Minister gave a complete exposition of the number of male and female Bantu in municipal locations, in compounds, in backyards and on white farms. According to these figures there are nearly 1½ million female Bantu on white farms. He then continued and made an analysis of who was working and who was not working, and eventually arrived at the conclusion that 3,800,000 people could be taken back to the Bantu areas; that is the number of appendages that could be taken back.

The redundant ones.

That includes them. Now the hon. member for Klip River tells us that this is not Nationalist Party policy. The hon. member said here with a grand gesture: “We received a mandate from the electorate.” Sir, I wonder how many voters know this. I wonder whether that Party would still be sitting on that side if the voters knew this.

May I ask a question for the sake of clarity?

You can make a speech yourself in a moment.

The hon. the Deputy Minister said that progress and development must take into account the absorptive capacity of the Bantu. Of course, one can agree with that; naturally that has to be borne in mind. But who is there but the Whites of South Africa to expand and strengthen that absorptive capacity? It is not only on the question of policy that there are always contradictions among Government members; we even have it here. Members on that side are continually boasting about the number of properties and businesses, especially in the Transkei, which are being taken over from Whites by the Bantu, and then the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Education comes along and gets carried away by the idea that industrialists should quickly apply to establish industries on the agency basis, otherwise they are going to be left behind. At the same time the hon. the Minister tells us that the agency basis is not a new policy. It is an old policy, in contrast to what was stated by the hon. member for Transkei. If it is an old policy, as the hon. the Minister says, and there is such a rush, as the hon. the Deputy Minister says, how much money has already been invested in the homelands on this agency basis? After all, under these circumstances it must be a substantial amount. Surely there must be results. But we all know, Sir, that there are difficulties, even with the border area benefits. As we pointed out in a previous debate, there are difficulties even for the white border areas. The benefits are not adequate. It is interesting to note what is said in the report of the Xhosa Development Corporation, in which specific reference is made to the concessions which are offered there. I have the English report here. They say, inter alia—

Surely this is the agency basis of which we hear so much. More benefits are being envisaged. I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister what benefits he is envisaging? What are the provisions going to be? What are the restrictions going to be? What is the norm he is going to apply? Because you see, Sir, it is no use saying that industrialists should apply and that there applications will be considered on merit. The people do not know what they should do. They do not know what the possibilities are. Only if that position is made known, is advertised, so that industrialists may know whether it is an attractive proposition or not, can they decide what can be done. Notwithstanding everything that had been said, Dr. Eiselen said the following:

He was not talking to the Government; he was talking to other people.

Sir, we all know that the concept “more rapid development” implies a great deal. We realize it. There are all kinds of economic activities. But even here there must be a list of priorities. It will be so much easier if, for example, the number of workers for whom employment opportunities have to be provided are properly trained. If we do not do that—the Government is in fact not doing enough in this regard at the moment—then we are only creating a reservoir of unplaceable unemployed persons. We are living in a technological age to-day. That has been said many times. The development that is taking place and the continual demand for productivity are leading to more and more mechanization and automation. We are encountering this position to an increasing extent in every undertaking, in every industry. That is why employees are being replaced by machines; not only that, but a smaller number of employees are required to look after one machine. Coupled to that there is the fact that the one remaining to look after the machines has to be a skilled worker. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for King William’s Town got himself into a corner by quoting the statement, “Please move”, from the Eiselen Report. This is precisely what the United Party should do. It should get a move on. But it cannot get a move on because the Party’s wheels will no longer turn. They are no longer being greased. They have seized up. In fact, the Party has shrunk or dwindled away virtually to nothingness. They always refer to verkramptheid as something from which we allegedly are suffering. In view of that I think it has become necessary for us to investigate to some extent where real verkramptheid is to be found. What is political verkramptheid? They constantly relate verkramptheid—the hon. member for Transkei again tried to do so—to the philosophy of the Government in respect of its policy of separate development. I think it has become necessary for us to ascertain who in the composition of this House really is verkramp. With reference to this matter I should like to make the statement, because I am sick and tired of this, that in the political development of South Africa there has never been a more explicit example of verkramptheid than that we have in the United Party. I believe that future political historians will confirm my statement that the Opposition is merely the attenuated appendage of the old U.P. or S.A.P. verkramptheid. With regard to references made by hon. members to the events of the past few days, I just want to say that in reality the small number of immature, wet-behind-the-ears authors of smear letters and articles in Veg is nothing but an insignificant verkrampte ally which that large verkrampte Party has gained in their struggle against the Government. That is all. The definition of verkramptheid which they want to apply to us is in fact applicable to them. What else is verkramptheid but a chronic tendency or disease in persons, organizations and parties to cling desperately to outdated, impractical and obsolete customs, ideas, principles and philosophies?

Order! Will the hon. member come back to the Vote? I have already allowed the hon. member two-and-a-half minutes.

Mr. Chairman, I want to prove that in respect of our philosophy, these people are clinging to an old obsolete view …

The hon. member must revert to the Vote; otherwise he must resume his seat.

But, Mr. Chairman, surely the Vote under discussion is the one on which they attack our policy of separate development, and I want to prove that their policy is a verkrampte vision. The very fact that they are suffering from that disease, i.e. a lack of political insight, is the basis of their attack on the policy of separate development of the Government. Their past proves that. Throughout the years those hon. members have been opposing every positive step and enlightened thought in respect of our political development.

The hon. member must revert to the Vote now; otherwise he must resume his seat. This is the last time I am saying this to the hon. member.

Mr. Chairman, in that case I regret that my interpretation of what is permissible on the Vote is incorrect. The United Party has no grounds on which it can attack us and cannot furnish any proof that we have not progressed with our policy in respect of separate development. They tried to prove that we were not succeeding in decreasing the numbers of Bantu concentrated in our urban areas and they tried to prove that we would not succeed in removing them through the implementation of our border area policy. But whatever argument they may advance, they will not succeed whatever may happen as their approach is in direct conflict with the policy of the National Party. The hon. member for King William’s Town said the implementation of our policy would require large sums of money. In other words, here we once again have the purely materialistic approach of the Opposition. They want to know what it will cost to implement our policy and how deeply South Africa will have to put its hand into its pocket to implement our policy of separate development. We have stated repeatedly that we do not ask the question, “What will it cost South Africa to implement the policy?”. With us it is merely a question whether we shall succeed and whether we shall be able, with the assistance of a united white nation, to implement a policy which will ensure the future of the white nation in South Africa. That is what the United Party cannot understand. That is why I have just tried to prove in a few words that the Opposition clings to verkrampte ideas. Surely it is an obsolete idea that one can bring together under one roof peoples with widely divergent and different cultures, languages and religions, politically and otherwise. We have sufficient proof from history that this does not work out satisfactorily. Even the Negroes in America to-day are aspiring to an identity of their own, not so? They want to get out from under the roof of integration, but the Opposition still wants to bring together under one roof the different peoples of South Africa. History proves that such a policy cannot succeed. Here in my notes I have these details, but the Chairman does not want to allow me to use them on this Vote. The colonial history of the Western European powers contains examples of attempts to pacify conquered nations by offering them political rights, for example, increasing political representation under one roof. That never succeeded. Even as long ago as the time of Alexander the Great the Greeks tried to do that after Alexander the Great had conquered the Persians. He told his soldiers, “Marry the Persian girls”. He himself took a Persian princess; his drastic plan did not work out. Even the Egyptians of Biblical times tried that with the Israelites. Even after 400 years when they tried to raise a fine young Israeli boy in their royal court they could not succeed. What did that boy do in the end? He led the Jews to their own freedom. The policy of integration and assimilation of the Pharaohs did not succeed. What the United Party is doing to-day is to cling to antiquated, verkrampte ideas of that nature. That is why it cannot make any progress. That is why they cannot make any headway, to use the words of Dr. Eiselen “Do get a move on. Modernize your thinking. Wake up. You are asleep. You are clinging to an illusion which cannot succeed in practice in South Africa”. Surely it is impossible. The idea of the Opposition of representation, under their policy of integration, in terms of which a qualified franchise will be given to the Bantu according to which they will first be represented by Whites and subsequently even by their own people in this House, is unacceptable and also in conflict with the tendency and the aspirations at present displayed by all non-Whites here and in the Black states of the whole of Africa. They are aspiring to an identity of their own. They want to be free. They want to get out from under the roof which the white colonial powers placed over them, no matter what equality there is under that roof. They want to avail themselves of opportunities over which they are acquiring authority in their own territories, in homelands of their own. That is the pattern of our policy, and it is a positive, progressive and enlightened policy vis-à-vis the adherence of the Opposition to an idea which is an obsolete and impractical one in South Africa. It is their desire to bring together people who do not belong together, politically and otherwise, in terms of an obsolete idea. That proves the deep-rooted verkramptheid from which the United Party is suffering.

Did you say a progressive policy?

Yes, progressive in the right sense of the word. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, this is really a time of confusion. If the hon. member for Marico thinks that we are advocating a qualified franchise, then he is definitely confused as to our policy. In addition he is definitely very confused as to what he may raise under this Vote, as was apparent from the fact that he got tangled up with the Chairman. But, Sir, never in its history has the Nationalist Party been as confused as it is to-day. We have seen how confused it is in respect of its policy in regard to Afrikaans-English relations. I know that you will not allow me to elaborate any further on that, Sir, but consider how confused this Party is in respect of its own Bantu policy. In its midst it has people who differ with one another in principle, as I shall try to prove in the course of my speech. They say that there is a firm unity between the Nationalist Party and its newspapers; they go hand in hand. In other words, they propagate the policy of the Nationalist Party.

Who says i that?

The hon. member for Langlaagte wants to know who says that. I thought it was general knowledge, for this unity in their ranks has of late been shouted from the rooftops. But we have always told them that where there is large-scale apartheid, there is no development; and where there is development, there is no large-scale apartheid. We have always said that there should be development in South Africa. But what do we find now? We are getting support from a most unexpected region, as my hon. friend for Transkei has just proved. I want to emphasize this point a little more, because from the region of the hon. the Deputy Minister of Justice and Planning we have received the greatest support possible in this regard. He said: “Of course, it is also true that we need these labourers just as they need us, and I want to submit for your consideration the idea that without this labour we shall not be able to maintain a 5 per cent growth rate in our economy.” He went on to say (translation)—

That is what he said. He is trying to evade the fact that large-scale apartheid has therefore failed completely, i.e. by sending back to the reserves all of those who are not working. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is really his policy that everybody who works inside the so-called white area has to come here on this basis of migratory labour? If this is in fact the case, I should also like to know whether he thinks he is acting in accordance with the views held by the best amongst the thinking Afrikaners? But I said that we found in the Nationalist Party at present that there were conflicting opinions in regard to matters of principle. I want to quote further from the speech made by the Deputy Minister of Planning where he said—

That is what he is saying now. To whom is he referring?

To you.

This speech was made just after the editorial had been published in Die Beeld. Therefore, he is referring to his own newspapers. In that respect he was referring to Die Beeld. He could just as well have referred to Die Burger, too, because in 1958 Die Burger wrote in an editorial that in the course of time and in view of the increasing development in the Bantu reserves fewer and fewer Bantu would come to the white area for the purpose of gaining a means of livelihood here.

Is that a Burger of 1948?

No, of 1958. I can show you the clipping. They went on to say that this would happen if we were serious about this policy and if this was not merely an empty slogan. In other words, the policy they have now, is the direct opposite of the policy their newspapers are propagating. We were told how close the co-operation between the Nationalist Party and its newspapers was and how they went hand in hand. There are, therefore, two absolutely conflicting policies which are being propagated by the Nationalist Party in respect of their Bantu policy. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister which of these two policies he supports. I shall listen attentively to hear what he replies to that.

I want to refer to another point. The hon. the Prime Minister is always proclaiming that we have peace and calm in South Africa at the moment. He also suggests that the policy of separate development is to be blamed for it.

To be thanked for it.

Or rather, to be thanked for it. Judging by the chorus of voices I hear, I can conclude that this is also the view of the hon. members on the other side. But that is not true. Does Rhodesia have a policy of separate development? Do the Portuguese have a policy of separate development? Rhodesia is a country which has a much higher ratio of non-Whites to Whites than we have; they are locked in a struggle with, one can almost say, the whole world. World sanctions have been introduced against Rhodesia; they are a small country but they do not have this policy. Who would say that they have less peace, calm and order than we have? Who can say that? This is, in other words, an argument which does not hold water. The same applies to the Portuguese territories. Surely, they do not have this policy. I do not want to go into the reasons why we still have peace and order in this country; that is a long story, but any Nationalist who wants to claim that the prevailing calm and order is the result of their policy, is simply not propagating the truth.

Now I want to refer to the hon. the Minister himself. This hon. Minister often wants to make us believe that their policy is being accepted whereas ours is not. To-day I do not want to go into the matter of whether or not our policy is being accepted by the Bantu; I only want to confine myself to the question of whether or not the policy of the Government is being accepted by the Bantu in South Africa. The hon. the Minister will probably not suggest that the Opposition in the Transkei accepts it, and I do not think that he can furnish any evidence to prove that the urbanized Native accepts it. I think his statement is based purely on the fact that the Party of Kaiser Matanzima does apparently accept the movement towards independence. However, there are no grounds for such a statement. The Government of the Transkei take what they are offered, but they are also asking for much more. Who can say that this is an acceptance of the Government’s policy? They have already told us that they demand much more land and that their people should be granted permanent rights in our cities. As has already been said, they do not only demand that they should be on their own, but they demand that they should now be able to introduce a federation system for themselves. They demand changes in the Pass Laws; they are quite opposed to the fact that they can be sent back to their own areas. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether the Transkei is willing to accept these resettlement towns, which he is now establishing in the Ciskei and at other places where they have not yet reached the stage of development the Transkei has? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pinelands, who has just resumed his seat, put numerous questions to the Minister and I think the Minister will reply to them. However, I should also like to say a few words about them. The hon. member asked whether it was the policy of the Government for the entire Bantu labour force in South Africa to consist of migratory labourers only. I believe that state of affairs will never be possible, but if that could have been the case, it would have been the happiest and finest state of affairs ever. An example of an industry we have managed to run with migratory labour from its very earliest days, is the mining industry. The Bantu live in their compounds and we have never experienced any problems with them.

There are young Bantu as well.

With young Bantu one may perhaps have more problems than with the old ones. It would be much safer to get the old ones only than it would be to get the young ones. We have never had any problems with them. Therefore I think that if this were a matter which had been settled and if it were possible to attract all our labour from the homelands under the system of migratory labour, that would have been the best system. The hon. member also asked what our policy was in respect of matters affecting numbers. It is our very policy to make as much use as possible of migratory labour and to the extent to which that is practicable. The hon. member for King William’s Town mentioned here what the hon. the Deputy Minister had allegedly said in connection with agencies. The United Party is never prepared to go about something from the bottom up. It is an extraordinary thing that the hon. member did not simply say at the same time that we should introduce white capital and white initiative into the homelands, which is their policy, but we shall probably hear that before long. I can only tell the hon. member that as far as agencies are concerned, and according to information we have at the moment, there were as many as 90 mining concessions in the Bantu homelands quite some time ago. The difference simply is that the National Party realizes that it has to start its policy of separate development in the homelands from the bottom up and not from the top down. It should not be done by introducing white capital, for example. If we were to introduce white capital, it would mean that Whites would be undertaking the development in the homelands and that the Bantu would be and remain no more than workers. The Bantu cannot develop their territory in that way nor will they be developing themselves. That is why it is the policy of the Government to develop those homelands from the bottom up. What is more, this will not be such a rapid process. In spite of the fact that the development of the homelands will take longer if it is undertaken by the Bantu themselves, they must do that themselves so that they themselves may develop their homes and their territories. This is the only way in which that can be done. In the first place we must have regard to the fact that the homelands in the Republic consist of approximately 260 small areas and black spots. These areas must be consolidated and developed. We must accept that the economic potential of some is greater than that of others, but all of them, without exception, are typically under-developed areas.

It is on this basis that development has to take place. The homelands are poor. According to the 1959-’69 estimate, the gross geographic product of the homelands of the Republic was R105 million, which represents a mere 2.3 per cent of the total gross domestic product of the Republic. Therefore one can see how poor and undeveloped the homelands are. To pump in capital and not do anything more and for the Whites to develop these territories will not be of any real help. We must start from the bottom so as to develop the Bantu themselves. The question of policy was mentioned, but the National Party does have its policy. In the Transkei approximately 85 per cent of the economic activities of the Bantu are in the field of agriculture and forestry. Therefore it is an excessively low productivity which prevails in that territory, and for that reason the Government has laid down its policy to develop those homelands. In fact, development in four directions has been laid down.

The first direction in which development will take place in these territories is in the field of agriculture. In the history of the world this was the first kind of development and therefore it should also be the first in the homelands. In the second place the development of trade and industries should be undertaken by the Bantu themselves and through the corporations. I do not have the time to go into these corporations now. Even the United Party knows of these corporations which are in existence and of the way in which they are being developed so that subsequently they may be handed to the Bantu themselves. In the third place the academic and technical training of the Bantu is important. A fourth important aspect is the establishment of industries in border areas. In order to illustrate what progress the Government has made in this direction, I want to mention the fact that a five-year plan is drawn up each time. In 1961 R114 million was spent. For the next five-year plan an amount of R491 million was budgeted in 1966. This shows us what progress has been made in this connection.

My time is very limited, but I should like to refer to one further matter and that is education and technical training. These have been changed for the Bantu in the homelands and, in general, also for the Bantu outside the homelands. In 1948 R2¼ million was spent on education. In 1967 R30 million was spent. In 1952 there were 814,000 schoolchildren and in 1967 2,100,000. At the time when I obtained this information there were 8,000 State-controlled schools in the Republic of South Africa for the Bantu. There are three university colleges, 42 training colleges for teachers, 5 agricultural colleges and 36 centres for technical training and the training of artisans. When one has regard to these things as well as to the progress made over the past few years in the homelands and as far as the Bantu in general are concerned, it ought to be clear even to the United Party, and they ought to realize, that it is a senseless question to ask, “What is your policy?” If in the course of these 21 years the United Party has been unable to grasp or learn the principles of the policy of separate development of the National Party, hon. members opposite should not put such questions to the hon. the Minister. Furthermore, he has told them these things so many times and if it has not sunk in yet, I think it is time they simply forgot about it and realized that they will never understand the policy of the National Party. I think it is either beyond their powers of comprehension or otherwise they do not want to understand it because they are afraid of this policy. As has already been mentioned, they have had the experience that this policy of the National Party has diminished their numbers to such an extent that they are so “verkramp”, as the hon. member said, that soon there will be nothing left of them. [Time expired.]

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.