Mr. Speaker, with your leave I should like to make a statement to the House. I think that, while the House is in session, it is proper for me to make this statement to the House before issuing it to the Press, and it is to the effect that the Minister of National Education and Cultural Affairs has tendered his resignation to me and that it has been decided to recall our present Ambassador in Vienna, Mr. Johan van der Spuy, to South Africa in order to take charge of those two departments upon his return to South Africa. In the meantime, until that office has been filled, Minister M. C. Botha will take charge of the Department of Higher Education, while Dr. C. Mulder will take charge of the Department of Cultural Affairs.

You will permit me, Mr. Speaker, in a few brief words to express the thanks of this House to Senator De Klerk for the years of very distinguished service which he rendered to this House as well.

In the debate yesterday afternoon the water situation was dealt with further, and I should like to reply to the various points raised here by the respective members. The hon. memlber for Wolmaransstad made a few observations here in regard to the Water Year. I want to thank him for it and I want to express the hope that there will be general co-operation on the part of the bodies which will be involved in that matter and that we shall also receive the enthusiastic support of the public in general. The present indications are that next year a great deal of interest will be shown in the activities which are being planned at the moment.

†The hon. member for South Coast dealt with the water situation and referred to the position as it is in South Africa to-day. He made the remark that water was actually our weakest link. I agree with the hon. member. He also said that it was essential that we succeed in our efforts eventually to get the situation under control. I can assure the hon. member that we shall succeed and that it is the intention of the Department of Water Affairs to plan ahead timeously and to plan on a big enough scale to be able to cope with the situation by the turn of the century. The hon. member also referred to the position of existing communities. He was perturbed about the possibility that existing communities would not get their fair share of water. I wish to assure the hon. member that the guarantee of an assured supply of water to existing communities is actually a fundamental component of our water planning programme for the future. We must be very careful not to think about existing communities as communities which under all circumstances will be entitled to abstract any volume of water from South Africa’s resources. The guiding rule should be to make water available to communities at those points where it is in the best interest of the country. But under our general planning scheme our idea is to assure existing communities not only of the water which they need for their present requirements, but to assure them of the water they will require for a reasonable growth rate.

The hon. member also referred to our relationship with neighbouring states with regard to the exploitation of water. He warned against indulgence in foreign exploits. I wish to assure the hon. member that there is actually an international agreement as to the use of water where different states have common interests. We have reached agreement in the case of most of the rivers where we have common interests with our neighbours, and I am sure that we will not have any trouble in the future in reaching agreement with regard to those rivers which we will develop on a common basis. I cannot visualize any instance where we will have to use water from a foreign source without South Africa being a participant in the development of a certain stream. In the case of most of the water sources in which we will be interested, we have a common boundary and, of course, a common interest.

The hon. member also referred to what he called the grid system. If the hon. member has in mind a system under which there will be a pooling of water resources and a reticulation of water at any price all over the country, then I must differ from him. But if he has in mind the establishment of commanding dams from which we can divert our water to those places where it will be used, then I agree with the hon. gentleman. I think that is what he has in mind.

That is my point.

That is what we have in mind and what we are in fact doing now with the development of the Tugela Basin, and that is what we will actually be doing with the development of the Theewaterkloof project. If that is the idea, then I am in full agreement with the hon. gentleman and I must point out that in our overall planning we are seeking to pin-point all these commanding dams. It will be a fundamental part of our reticulation system to be able to distribute our waters from these commanding dams and in that way to have a grid system. The hon. member also referred to the principle of apportionment. I think I dealt with this yesterday when I replied to the debate. Under the idea of apportionment there must, of course, be an apportionment to all the various sectors that will have a claim upon water. That is also a very fundamental component of general planning. I think we are in full agreement on that point also.

The hon. member asked me a question in connection with the development of what he called the Vleitjieskraal Canal Scheme, that is to say, the canal scheme beyond the Van der Kloof Dam. We are busy with this construction and in the construction of those canals we are planning in such a way that we hope that we will in future be able to increase the capacity at a reasonable cost. The hon. member will understand that it is not always good business, from the point of view of State expenditure, to build canals or dams to their full capacity, because this scheme will be a living scheme and there must be the necessary scope for development and for increase in the capacity in future. That will be done in this instance as well and we are planning accordingly.

The hon. member also asked me a question, a very important question, in connection with the use of the water in the J. G. Strydom Dam, to the west of the Lebombo mountains. I have stated before and I wish to reiterate that it is not the intention to use the water to the west of the Lebombo mountains. It will be used primarily for agricultural purposes to the east of the Lebombo mountains. At the moment we foresee the irrigation of about 45,000 morgen on the Makatini Flats, but I must also state emphatically that we feel that it will be very unwise to apportion all the water from our big project in future and that we are keeping a reserve for eventualities in the J. G. Strydom Dam. I think it will be wise to do so. We do not want to commit the full contents of the dam without knowing what developments will take place in the future. I think the hon. member will agree with me that that is a wise policy to follow.

I agree.

The hon. member also asked me whether we were giving the necessary attention to the possibility of bilharzia being pumped into the Transvaal from the Tugela. We are doing our best to try to obviate that possibility. The water that will be pumped in, will be extracted from the deep level of the dam where generally no bilharzia is encountered. The water is being pumped up to a point where we believe that there is the least possibility of bilharzia. We are not sure whether we have bilharzia in the Vaal as yet. There is, of course, that possibility.

We are going into this matter very thoroughly and we are keeping a keen eye on this possibility.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? In dealing with the question of water from the J. G. Strydom Dam, east of the mountains, can the hon. the Minister tell me if water will be made available through other works for irrigation to the west of the mountains?

We cannot as yet say whether that will be done. There could be very rightful demands for water to the west and we will look into that question very thoroughly. This also applies to all the rivers in Natal. We cannot as yet foresee how we will develop all the rivers in future, but the necessary attention will also be given to the rightful demands of people to the west of the mountains. I intend appointing a planning commission for that portion of Natal. I am not sure whether I will be able to appoint the commission this year, but it will be done as soon as possible. Instructions will then be issued for the planning of the northern part of Natal. I also hope that in future we will be able to do more thorough planning for the whole of the Tugela Basin. I think the explanations I have given will satisfy the hon. member.

*I should like to come back to the comments made here by a few other hon. members, and I should like to do so now. The hon. member for Pinetown once again argued with me about the dispute between Durban and Pinetown. I did not want to say this to the hon. member yesterday, but perhaps I should state on this occasion that the attitude I adopted was that the Department of Water Affairs could not interfere with the provision of water by local authorities. We think it is the responsibility of such authorities to do this themselves. We are also of the opinion that we are not the authority which has to keep an eye on such matters, but that this should in fact be done by the provincial authorities. The Administrator of Natal stated that if we were to reach agreement and a decision were to follow which would make it necessary for a higher authority to offer to serve as an appeal authority or a control authority, he would be prepared to accept that responsibility for Natal. I intend to take this matter up with the Administrator and then to create means on the basis of which what I am saying now may perhaps in practice lead to a satisfactory agreement being reached—satisfactory to the hon. member and to everybody who may become involved in this matter—in order that there may be clarity as to the authority with whom an appeal can be lodged. I hope this satisfies the hon. member.

The hon. member for Etosha referred to growth points in South-West and to the possibility of major water shortages. I want to tell the hon. member that a few weeks ago I accompanied senior officials of the Department on a visit to South-West and that we had the opportunity of criss-crossing the whole of South-West for two weeks and to get to know as much about the problems of South-West as one possibly can in such a time. I was particularly impressed by the future needs and the possibilities of South-West, and I want to say that if we in South Africa have a problem in regard to water, the problem South-West has in regard to its water shortage in the future is enormous and relatively speaking greater than that of South Africa. The differences are greater and there are topographical problems as well. In addition the available resources are smaller and therefore legitimate demands are also relatively greater. An enormous challenge awaits us in South-West. We hope to be able to announce shortly, perhaps within a few days, the appointment of an inter-departmental committee, the terms of reference of which will be wide enough to enable it to make a special and an intensive study of the whole water situation of South-West and to furnish the Government with plans for the future so as to make the water of South-West available at those very points where water will be needed most. The points where water will be needed, are the points where there is no water at the moment, and where major mine developments are expected. I hope that such a committee, which will consist of experts, will be able to process existing information, seek new information and come forward with a plan which in fact one would also be able to call the grand water plan for South-West Africa.

The hon. member for King William’s Town also participated in the debate and he commented on the planning in that area. The hon. member said that in our planning for the development of the area we had not kept abreast of events. I think that is not quite correct. This area has a main water source and this water source has virtually been overdeveloped. This water source is the Buffalo River. In the meantime a very great need for water has developed in that vicinity. We virtually had to try, by means of what one could call an integration of pipelines, to keep pace with the development in that vicinity and with the future needs. Hence the construction of pipelines and the utilization of the Nahoon Dam and the Laing Dam. These are the two dams we are using in particular. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that according to our estimates and our planning we foresee that until such time as we are in a position to develop a greater source of supply, we shall manage to meet the need which is developing and which already exists in that area. I visited this area last year, and it was immediately obvious to me that it would be very foolish to build the Fairways Dam. At that stage I had already decided that, in spite of the fact that it appeared on the Estimates, I would not allow construction work on that dam to be proceeded with, since I was of the opinion that it was not in the economic interest of the area and of South Africa for us to proceed with the construction of that dam. We would prefer to bring in water on a larger scale from a perennial and larger river. We are investigating the possibilities at the moment and will probably have to bring in water, either from the Kubusi side or from the Keiskamma. We shall know shortly from which of these two points the water will be brought in. We shall proceed at once with the planning and the construction of such a project. This project will receive priority in order that we may be ready round about 1975-’76. We hope to be able to bridge this situation. I do not think the hon. member need be afraid that we shall not be ready in time, because I think that we are going to be ready in time. Once we have improved the water situation, we can, as far as that vicinity is concerned, make provision for major developments up to the end of the century.

The hon. member also complained that we were following too cumbersome a procedure as regards applications in connection with obtaining approval for drilling matters. I want to tell the hon. member that, as he himself knows, we have simplified and smartened up the procedure to such an extent that, from the Department’s point of view, a person is immediately notified of his application having been approved or rejected. Delays no longer occur. From the time when the person concerned mails the application until it reaches us, a delay may in fact occur, but the Department is not responsible for that. We cannot abandon the principle that approval has to be granted beforehand. It has to be approved beforehand; otherwise we would be opening the door to a practice which would simply cause us a great deal of inconvenience in future. It is an acknowledged principle with the Treasury and with all Government Departments that nobody may start building until he has obtained permission. Nobody may proceed with a project if permission has not been granted beforehand. After all, the Treasury has to shoulder the responsibility for all the expenditure incurred by the State. One of the ways in which this is done is that when expenditure is incurred, one has to know beforehand and should not have to grant approval afterwards. We try to overcome problems which may arise along the way—especially problems involving merits of some kind or other—in that we may nevertheless grant approval on an ex gratia basis. That is what the Department is trying to do. I think the hon. member may rest assured that we have smartened up the machinery to such an extent that the approval is virtually granted at once. In certain cases we are even prepared, if it is an emergency, to react to a telephone call and to grant telegraphic approval. I think this is the furthest one can be expected to go.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Is it not possible to amend the necessary authorization in such a way that it will apply to both private and Government drills? Perhaps it will only be necessary to change the wording so that one person may have authorization for either private or Government drills. That is the problem.

This is, of course, a very difficult problem. The hon. member must appreciate that as soon as one has to do with private drilling, the Department also has to exercise better control over it. However, I can see the hon. member’s point. The hon. member wants to suggest that in the case of private drilling it takes longer to receive approval than is the case in regard to Government drilling. Administratively it is impossible to do it differently, but the hon. member has a point there. However, it is obvious that in such cases it will take longer to obtain approval. After all, we must know by whom the drilling is undertaken and that is why it is not possible to grant authority which is verbally identical, because the circumstances may differ completely. However, I want to give the hon. member the assurance that the speed at which these matters are despatched, has increased a great deal. We are also trying to despatch them as soon as is humanly possible. I do not think that approval was ever granted as quickly as that in the past, but I think that we should bear with the measure of delay which occurs.

Last night the hon. member for Smithfield asked a question in regard to the development at the Kaffer River and Egmond. The hon. member complained about canals. The hon. member was quite correct, because there are many canals in South Africa which are still ordinary earth canals. I have already stated our declared policy in this regard on more than one occasion. The canals which conduct our water constitute one of our major points of loss. We shall gradually have to undertake clearance work. At many points where water flows into canals, and where many losses occur, we shall have to line the canals in question. This is the policy. The hon. member will appreciate that it will be an enormous task to line overnight all the canals which are already in existence in South Africa and have been in existence for many years. However, in future the emphasis will be placed on this aspect of this work. We hope to effect visible and comprehensive changes in the future, changes which will cover the situation as a whole. The canals in the hon. member’s constituency will be included as well. The hon. member also made inouiries about the Welbedacht Dam. The construction of this dam will be commenced shortly. The silt run-off at the Welbedacht Dam is of course, high. The Welbedacht Scheme will hold back approximately 5,000 morgen feet of water per year, but our sluices will be constructed in such a way that the flood there, which is a silt-bearing flood, will be regulated so as to allow a maximum amount of the silt to pass through. Technically it is possible to adjust the sluices and to regulate the flood in such a manner that a maximum amount of the silt will be allowed to pass through. It is possible to apply the principles of hydraulics so as to effect this. This dam will be constructed in this way, but in spite of that we shall have to hold back a quantity of silt of approximately 5,000 morgen feet. I want to tell the hon. member that as far as the future is concerned, we are engaged in development plans for the Caledon Scheme. At the appropriate time we shall also publish the pattern in full. The latter will include the development of the whole area, the development of every possible dam point as well as the prorities. We shall also have to try to hold back the silt out of the Verwoerd Dam basin, not only with a view to the supply of water to Bloemfontein, but especially with a view to safeguarding the Verwoerd Dam. Future work will in all probability include these elaborate works which will not only supply water, but also be aimed at holding back silt.

The hon. member also referred to a matter on which I should like to speak more fully, i.e. the question of the sitting up of the Verwoerd Dam. People all over South Africa have been talking about the possibility of the Verwoerd Dam silting up. One of the rumours which reached me was of the effect that it was being said that the Verwoerd Dam which was going to cost such a great deal would be silted un within 20 years. Some people estimated this at 50 years, and others, on the other hand, at 100 years. However, the general impression with a large section of the public is that the Verwoerd Dam will be a white elephant one of these days. If a dam is constructed with a storage capacity which is equal to the average annual run-off, such a dam holds back 90 per cent of the silt content. If on the other hand, the dam is built considerably smaller, only for 30 per cent of its average annual run-off, it holds back 60 per cent of the silt content. We are building the Verwoerd Dam with a capacity of 2.210.000 morgen feet. The average annual run-off is 2.500 000 morgen feet. The dead water level of the dam—i.e. that part of the water below the sluices, water which does not flow out—is 60,000 feet. This is water which, in other words, can never be used profitably unless it is pumped out. That leaves us with a balance of 2,150,000 morgen feet of water which can be used effectively. The figure with which we have been working up to now, is a figure which tallies with the average figure for this type of river in South Africa. This is how we calculated it. We said that if the silt content should be .8 per cent, which is a high estimate, 50 per cent of the capacity of the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam would be silted up in 70 to 75 years’ time. It is in regard to this fact that there were arguments and speculations. Here I want to add that if the dam wall is raised to this height, the quantity of silt which is held back will be equal to 18,000 morgen feet per year. If hon. members were to work this out, they would arrive at the figure of 70 to 75 years which I mentioned. That will be the position if we build the dam as we now intend doing, i.e. 4,130 feet above sea level. With that we can, as I have said, go on for 70 years. Then we will be able to raise the dam to 4,150 feet above sea level to make up for the silt which will already have accumulated in the dam. If we were to do that, we would once again have to raise the level of the dam wall in 120 to 130 years’ time, i.e. increase it by another 30 feet up to 4,180 feet above sea level. If we were to do that, it would mean that in 250 years’ time we would again have to make further provision, i.e. to raise the wall of the dam to a height of 4,300 feet above sea level. By doing that we would be able to give the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam a life of 1,000 years. But by doing that we would also increase the surface area which will be under water to such an extent that the evaporation factor will also be more considerable; in other words, we shall lose a large quantity of water through evaporation. I can tell hon. members that over the past few years we have undertaken intensive studies in this regard. The result of those studies, which at the moment we accept as scientifically absolutely correct, is that we have been working on a dry weight basis of the soil of 55 lbs. per cubic foot. We have also caused a thorough study to be made of the dry weight basis of all the water which flows down in the Orange. The result is that we are able to tell you that the dry weight basis of the silt in the Orange is just over 80 lbs. per cubic foot. The periods which I gave you a moment ago change on this basis, i.e. 70 years—120 years—250 years, to 100—120 years —200 years—400 years; in other words, in this way we shall extend the life of the dam. But this would be the situation if we were to be irresponsible enough to do nothing about it. As far as this is concerned, we shall be able to do much. In the Kraai River, 20 per cent of the silt content flows down; in the Orange it is 50 per cent and in the Caledon 30 per cent. If we do what is necessary in the upper reaches of these rivers, we shall be able to lower the percentages considerably. However, what has to be done, is not the task of the Government only; it is the task of the whole nation. Every citizen in that catchment area has to realize that with that in view he must co-operate, and we hope everybody will do so. If we do that, we can lower the percentage of silting up before we reach the stage where we have to think of raising the dam wall for the first time. But we can do more than that. We could construct specific works in the upper reaches which would be concentrated on holding back the silt there. We know that in the Caledon, at any rate, it is possible for us to construct such works. If we could do all these things and lower the silt content, we would have to change the life expectancies which I set out earlier on, because the position would have changed. In fact, we may extend the expected life of the dam to such an extent that we need not be concerned about this factor in our lifetime. I hope that by giving this explanation I have made an end to all the speculation about the possibility of the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam becoming silted up.

The hon. member for Simonstown asked me to declare Zeekoevlei to be a water-sport control area. The three authorities involved in this matter are the city council, the divisional council and the provincial administration. I can appreciate the hon. member’s difficulties; in fact, I have sympathy with him. I want to suggest to him that the divisional council and the Province should reach agreement as to which of them wishes to accept responsibility. Once that has been done the hon. member may approach me with a recommendation, and I shall listen to it.

The hon. member for Stilfontein spoke about the pumping out of water by the mines. Let me tell him that I cannot forbid a mine to pump out water. The only control I can exercise, is over water which has already been pumped out. In that regard I can issue a permit. But we must approach this problem in a circumspect manner. In fact, we can handle it in two ways. At the moment we are conducting negotiations for the purpose of replacing water, or we may make up as far as possible for the damage caused by the abstraction of water, for instance, by buying up the land, as we are in fact buying up the land to the north of the hon. member’s constituency at the moment. The hon. member also referred to the waste of water by industries. I am as concerned about this as he is. He asked us to introduce legislation to force industries to use their water over and over. However, this is not so easy. This involves a great deal of expense. It would be better if all used water was brought together in a central pool and purified there at a lower cost. To a large extent this is already being done. Yesterday I elaborated on this matter at length and discussed the procedure followed in using this water twice or even three times over. In other words, we are already doing what the hon. member is asking for.

The hon. member for Aliwal expressed his appreciation yesterday for what the Department had done in his area. I want to tell the hon. member that we took pleasure in doing so. Hon. members may rest assured that when such disasters strike an area, we shall always be at hand to do everything in our power in an attempt to remedy the situation. He referred to the various rivers in his vicinity. As I have already explained, we are trying to cover the whole of South Africa and to prepare ground-plans for every area. This is an enormous task. If we had enough chairmen, secretaries and professional people to be everywhere at the same time, we could do that. On our part there is no lack of goodwill nor of vision as to what has to happen. It remains a question of the available manpower and how much manpower we can mobilize from the private sector for this task. We have already succeeded in mobilizing some of them, and I hope that by this time next year I shall be able to give the hon. member a better indication as to how things are in that area.

The hon. member for Nelspruit made some kind remarks yesterday. I want to thank him for that. He made a remark, inter alia, in connection with the situation as regards our engineers. I agree with the hon. member as far as that is concerned. It is simply inconceivable that we shall be able to handle the position in future unless we have enough engineers to be able to do so. I want to tell the hon. member that I had a calculation made of what we are doing per engineer in the Department at present as against what was done in the past. A number of years ago the average responsibility per engineer for, for example, planning, design and construction, was approximately R160,000 per year. That figure now stands at R600.000 per year per person. Since the hon. member mentioned this, I just want to tell him that I have the highest regard and the very highest praise for the way in which the engineers of this Department are trying to cope with the situation. We took a few engineers into service recently. During the past few months we gained 16 extra engineers. We do not only need 16 extra, we need hundreds. We have granted a large number of bursaries. In fact, this year alone 119 students are studying at the various universities on bursaries that were granted this year. They are studying with a view to joining the Department of Water Affairs upon completing their studies. I also want to appeal to hon. members on that side of the House to make it known that we make bursaries available. We have publicized this through the medium of the radio and the Press and in other ways as well. We are prepared to grant bursaries to persons who come forward. We will give bursaries to them. We are continuing with these efforts. We have to train extra people in this direction. Hon. members must appreciate that we are, of course, the recruiting field for the private sector as well. I referred to this yesterday, and I hope the private sector will also do its share in training people, and not only lure away our trained people. The hon. member also made a remark in connection with the equipment. He remarked that there was a considerable increase in the expenditure on equipment. I just want to mention a few interesting figures to the hon. member. These figures are standard not only in South Africa, but also in the world. We know that the machinery complement should be a minimum of 15 per cent in the case of large construction works. It was very low in our case because we suddenly came forward with a large number of works. If we do not make provision, the percentage in respect of the machinery complement will decrease. We are equipping ourselves so as to be able to complete these large schemes efficiently and I quickly. That is why this extra amount of almost R3 million is being spent on the purchase of machinery this year. We will have to maintain this rate of making large purchases in the future. I want to tell him that our aim is to bring about an increase in the machinery complement. That is why we are trying and will try to ensure the provision of the means of production to our people on the large schemes they are building, as quickly and effectively as possible.

The hon. member for Colesberg also made a few observations. He referred inter alia, to the P. K. le Roux Dam and to the possible neglect there. I had a special inquiry instituted into that some time ago. I want to tell the hon. member that it is not true that there is very serious deterioration there, although there is some deterioration in certain cases, and a number of windows have been broken. The cost of that represents only a small percentage of the benefit we derived in the form of savings on interest alone by holding back this scheme a little as we did. A house that is standing empty, always looks a bit neglected. Sometimes it looks neglected simply because the grass in front of the house is overgrown. I always compare such a house to the beach-houses of my good friends that stand empty for long periods every year. When they get there, the house looks neglected. Within a day, after the children have been running on the grass and the weeds have been flattened out a little, one cannot even notice that the house has been standing empty for a year. We are sorry that the houses have to stand empty. I am satisfied, however, that the actual loss is not so great.

The hon. member also referred to the pipeline to Noupoort and Colesberg. It is true that that water is terribly expensive. But the water is expensive because the pipeline is expensive and the consumption is small. If the consumption increases the unit cost of the water will decrease. Because these two towns are small, the initial cost is high. Deputations from the hon. member’s constituency have been to see me. I spoke to them and told them that we would help. If more help is needed, we shall investigate the matter further. It will be cheaper, however, to find one or two sources in the immediate neighbourhood from which water can be pumped. With water from such sources the position can be temporarily solved until we can make further provition for the future. It is actually this intermediate period which is the difficult one. I want to assure the hon. member that he and his people are always welcome to come back to us with their problems. We shall always go into them again, and we can always discuss them again. We are saddled with a factual situation, i.e. a small number of people, a long distance, a small consumption and expensive unit costs. These are facts which cannot be denied.

The hon. member also referred to the high price of water where supplementary water has to be supplied. We shall try to help the hon. member as far as we can. He also asked whether it was not possible to fit automatic brakes to windmills. Now I wonder whether we must not start thinking—and then the farmers must think along with us—whether the problem is not that, if the farmer is away and the wind keeps on blowing, the dams overflow unnecessarily for weeks on end. Four hundred to 500 yards further on one sees the water running to waste, evaporating or sinking away into the soil. Can we not install automatic overflow valves there which will return the water to the hole? Surely it will be easy to do this. Should we in South Africa not start thinking of installing a pipe to return the water to the borehole, instead of allowing the water to flow away? Then that water will not be wasted, because it will flow back into the borehole.

In connection with the query raised by the hon. member about the lease of land in the dam basin, I can tell the hon. member that I do not know of any leasing to officials. However, we do not handle that matter. That is done by the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure. That Department takes the responsibility for that. I would be surprised if there was leasing on a large scale to the officials of my Department. They may have a cow here and there …

That is merely what is being said; I cannot vouch for the truth of it.

I would be surprised, but this is a matter which must be handled by the other Department.

The hon. member for East London (City) asked me a few questions in connection with the Orange River project. He put forward a plan. I wish we could implement it. The plan he suggested was that we should build a pipeline or a canal—I think this is what he had in mind—to the dry parts of South Africa. That pipeline would not only supply water for drinking purposes; here and there it would also supply a little fodder bank of approximately ten morgen on every farm. As a practical farmer I have considered this myself, but I am afraid that if we had to undertake this scheme it would cost such enormous amounts to irrigate ten morgen on a farm that in some cases the amount would be more than the total value of the farm. However, I agree with the hon. member, and I said so yesterday, that we shall reach a stage where we will have to admit, and will have to accept as a policy, that we must link up our grazing areas with our rivers in order to provide water wherever this can be done by means of an economic, practical and viable project. This must happen. The hon. member also inquired as to whether the 240 morgen of land that are now under irrigation in the Berlin area will remain intact with the development there. As far as I know, we have never had any intention of withdrawing the irrigation rights. A man’s rights are his rights. The hon. member also asked …

The real purport of my question to the hon. the Minister was whether the 240 morgen falling under the Department of Water Affairs were the 240 morgen in the Berlin township area that were mentioned by the hon. the Minister of Planning.

Yes. The hon. member also asked about the Kubusie and Keiskamma Rivers. I have explained what the plans for the development there are. The hon. member also asked whether we could not tap the water of the various rivers flowing through the Transkei, outside that area, or even agree to tap the water within the areas. The principle is, however, that if portion of the water flows through South African territory, we are joint owners of the water. If it flows over our territory, we are therefore entitled to it. The hon. member asked that we should negotiate, that we should secure our rights in good time, and that we should come to an agreement as to how, where and when that division will take place. This is a matter in connection with which we do not only have to deal with the Transkei, but which we are considering in South Africa in respect of all our neighbour states.

The hon. member for Potchefstroom asked for details in connection with the protection of the Mooi River compartment. I may tell the hon. member that the water which is at the moment being pumped out of the river at the uppermost compartments, automatically flows down to the Mooi River compartment. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that long before any dispute can arise, or long before any danger can arise, we shall take the necessary measures. This presents no problem to me in practice. At present there is no danger, and we also deal with the arrangements in such cases, and therefore I think the hon. member need not be concerned about this. The hon. member asked about the Schoemansdrift Dam. As yet it is not the intention to build it. It will probably have to come later, within the greater planning for the Vaal complex. Then the hon. member asked about our international status. I want to give him the assurance that our Department is participating on the international level in various ways. We are participating in matters on a very large scale. We belong to international commissions, and we are sought-after members thereof. We are a member of the International Commission for Large Dams. We are playing an important part on the executive committee. Our people also hold chairmanships. I just want to add that, apart from this, our engineers in the Department belong to a wide variety of organizations which serve various spheres and which are sought after all over the world, and of which we are recognized, important and esteemed members. I want to tell the hon. member that the status we have, we have on account of the achievements of South Africa’s engineers. There are various fields in which our engineers have taken the lead. I want to mention an example.

I want to tell him that we are the leading country in the world as regards the multiple arch dams we are building. This is a fulfilment and the development of ideas and plans initiated by Professor Rocha of Portugal. We developed those ideas further, and I want to tell the hon. member that if he ever looks at the Pongola Poort and at the Stompdrift Dam he must know that what he sees before him are constructions which, judged by world standards, represent one of the most important, complicated and greatest feats ever achieved in any part of the world by construction engineers. We are sought-after members. We participate in these international conferences, and our standpoint is that we can also through the Department of Water Affairs show friendship and render assistance to neighbouring countries, and we can also provide guidance to countries that have the same conditions as we have, dry countries or semi-arid countries like our own. I want to put this on record to-day. We may be small: we may be a small Department, but with what South Africa has achieved in this field, we rank as one of the great countries of the world. We do not take second place to any other country in this field, and we are prepared to share this knowledge with our neighbours and with other countries of the world where we can render assistance.

The hon. member for Christiana asked me whether we could change the name of the Oppermansdrift Dam. He asked that it should be called the Bloemhof Dam. I have great pleasure in telling the hon. member that the dam will be called the Bloemhof Dam in future. With this, I think, I have completed my reply.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 47,—Forestry, R2,350,000, Loan Vote F,—Forestry, R12,750,000, and S.W.A. Vote 25,—Forestry, R59,000:

In this Vote we also have a new Minister and I would like to welcome him to the portfolio and say that we are extremely pleased to see that he has got this onerous task. He has taken over a portfolio which is also growing in importance year by year. There are now many scores of millions of rands invested in forestry >by the public and the private sector, and the responsibility now rests on this Minister’s shoulders. I can assure him that we will do our best from this side of the House to help him, and while the time allotted for the debate on this Vote is short this time, it is perhaps not precisely equal to the importance of the subject, so that that may be changed in future years. But when T welcome the Minister to this important portfolio, I must also add that there are problems which have come down to him from the past, historically, and I should just like to deal with a few of those matters.

Firstly I would like to deal with the question of the situation in which the grower of pine logs for pulpwood finds himself in South Africa. Pine pulpwood to-day is virtually limited to one channel for disposal. There is virtually one channel in South Africa through which the grower of pine pulp logs can sell his product. That is one particular industrial undertaking with several factories in South Africa and it constitutes therefore the only practical market. Into that market goes the produce of the individual grower, as well as the thinnings from the Government Forestry Plantations. This, I am afraid, has created a very sad state of affairs in South Africa. We on this side of the House in the past have pleaded for a certain type of organization to be established in the forest industry. We have had co-operation from the Government. There has been an appreciation at top level from the Government side of the need to cope with this growing industry along certain properly organized lines, and the result was the putting on the Statute Book of the Forestry Act a few years ago. But while that provides the framework within which forestry can develop in South Africa, there are specific problems which arise, and the disposal of pine logs by growers is one of them. I want to make this point at once in view of what I am going to say hereafter, that the private grower who grows pine logs or pulpwood can be making that his objective, his target. He is not like the ordinary farmer who can wait for a 30-year cycle for saw logs from pine trees. There are very few farmers who can start young enough and who can hope to reap the benefit of their investment if they are going for a rotation of 25 to 30 years, and it is becoming more and more dear that if we are to produce the right quality of saw logs from pines in South Africa, we must produce them from mature timber. The fast-growing timber big enough to cut into merchantible saw logs is not the timber which is going to bring any great kudos to us as timber-growers in South Africa. It is the mature logs, the old trees, and that is, generally speaking, beyond the means of the ordinary grower. So this can be the market for the individual farmer, but in the case of the market itself, which as I say is virtually one industry in South Africa, there is now competition against the State, the precise point we have been making for years, namely that this unfortunate position was likely to arise. In the case of the State, the pine log is a by-product; the nine log that goes into pulp is a by-product. The necessary thinnings have got to be done. In terms of the over-all plan for forestry, the State produces saw logs from its forests, and in the obtaining of the best saw logs, in the course of the best plantation practices, it has to do thinning as well as pruning, etc.; and the thinnings, in the early stages, in the first 12 to 16 years, is the pulpwood which goes into the factory. But it is a by-product from the State forests, so that the State with a by-product is competing against the private grower whose bread and butter it is. So I want to make this point at once. I want to say that as the result of the last two or three years’ difficulties with the factory that buys the pulpwood—and I am talking only about pine pulpwood—pine growers have been told that there is a surplus of pine pulpwood, and so growers are being cut back in their supplies to the mill. The factory concerned is in the happy position that it can cut back private growers, not on a true quota (basis, because apparently it is entirely without any recognized rules by which a supplier’s supplies are cut back. It is not a common percentage of everybody’s supplies. They are just cut back as and when the opportunity comes for the mill to cut back the supplies from a private grower. But the mill does not run short. The mill has the whole of the State forests to fall back on; it falls back on the thinnings from the State forests. So what is happening is that the mill is taking its big bulk supplies from the State forests and then it fills up with the supplies from private growers. Now I am going to suggest to the Minister that he should now, as a matter of State policy, say: I am going to stop this and I will reverse it. Let the private grower get the market that is available and let the factory use the State forests as a balancing factor to fill up. The factory will not run short. The factory will not be put in a position where it can turn round to the Minister and say that in this way they are likely to run short and will not have adequate supplies of pulpwood. They can keep the factory going 100 per cent throughout every working day that they are operating. But let the position be that the private grower has the market, and let the by-product from the State forests be the balancing factor.

Let us have a look at the situation which has arisen in this regard. I have here the latest report from the World’s Paper Trade Review which I have been able to get, dated 24th October, 1968, and it is most interesting when you read these figures to see that in that year the materials for our mills resulted in R5.2 million’s worth of raw materials being imported into South Africa. We are producing pulp in this country at an ever-increasing rate, and we are producing the trees at a faster rate than they can be turned into pulp, but we are still importing pulp. This seems to me to be altogether wrong, that at a time when we have surplus pulpwood available, if the factory will take that wood, we are actually importing pulp ourselves from overseas. [Time expired.]

Apparently the hon. member for South Coast did not complete his argument and he will probably have more to say about it at a later stage. Allow me also to express the delight of this side of the House at the wise decision that the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs should also be the Minister of Forestry, because the two are so closely related. This was specifically one of our basic problems in the past, i.e. that there was not sufficient co-ordination, in our opinion, between the various departments, in respect of forestry. Allow me also to extend my congratulations, on behalf of the producers of wood and certainly also, no less, on behalf of the foresters in general who are employed by the State, to the Secretary, who now has his first full year of office behind him. I also want to congratulate him on this very fine annual report, about last year’s activities, which has appeared. From this annual report one thing is very clear and that is that comprehensive planning has apparently been undertaken in regard to State forestry. At a meeting the other evening the hon. the Minister said that in respect of forestry we were slowly coming to the stage where the investment would reach R2,000 million. In other words, forestry is no longer an industrial appendage; it has become an independent colossus in our economic life, and for that reason I just want to mention a few points for the hon. the Minister’s attention and consideration. While the State has ensured planning for State Forestry, my plea is that there should also be planning for the individual forester. I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for South Coast said in this connection. We do not frequently agree, particularly not in the political sphere, but as far as this cardinal point is concerned, we have a common interest when we make a plea on behalf of our individual farmers. Until now there was no direct State capital available to the individual farmer for afforestation. Farmers over the years have sunk their own capital into afforestation. The result was, as in 1956 when the forests of many farmers were destroyed by snow, that they eventually ended up at the Land Board where they had to plead for the consolidation of their debts under the State schemes, because they had invested capital, which was not available to them at a low interest rate, in forestry. Their interest rate was higher than their incomes. In other words, my first plea is that the State should consider, in the first place, making capital available to the individual forester at a subsidized interest rate. It is very important that the interest rate should be subsidized and that the interest should be low, because an investment in forestry is a long-term investment. In other countries, where forestry is the most important industry, it is subsidized, and there, comparatively speaking, the State is to a lesser extent in competition with the individual forester than in this country. This competition, on the part of the State, with the individual forester, has this detrimental effect, i.e. that good agricultural land is ploughed up and afforested on a very large scale, instead of forests being planted in the sourer regions with a rainfall of 30 inches and more. Good agricultural land is being afforested on a very large scale by individual farmers in order, thereby, to compete on an economic basis with the State, which has extensive plains and mountains at its disposal for afforestation and which, of course, has many benefits which the individual does not have.

My second plea, particularly with reference to my constituency, where we have a narrow-gauge railway line from Greytown to Pietermaritzburg, a narrow-gauge line which runs right through the forestry area, is that the loading facilities should be improved for those people. Railway stations such as New Hanover and others have been rebuilt by the Railways but there are no platforms from which these people can load the timber which they saw. They must load it from the ground, which is level with the lower edge of the stone on which the railway line rests. In other words, they must lift their wood approximately an additional two feet ten inches higher than would be necessary if there were the necessary loading facilities.

Mr. Chairman, in the past we have pleaded for a control body for forestry. If this were to be done, the problem of the hon. member for South Coast, my problem and the problem of our farmers would fall away. There ought to be a body caring for the interests of forestry, including the forestry interests of the State. But, Sir, it must not be a statutory body. We have enough of these statutory bodies, we know what happens there, and I am not disposed to making a plea for a statutory body. I also know that the Department would not be content with that. As far as my farmers are concerned, I think that they would only be satisfied if such a body were established under the Marketing Act. In other words, we are pleading for the establishment of a control board on which there would be a majority of primary producers. They could then ensure, under the supervision of the Department, that orderly marketing and planning took place. In my opinion this would not detract from the functions of the Department of Forestry, because the main function of the Department is the administration of State Forestry. But if we were to have a control board we would have a fair distribution of activities, there would be fairness in respect of the supplying of funds and then there would be fewer instances of smaller farmers being bought out by forestry companies who are well endowed with capital and who offer them attractive prices for their land. Sir, I have here a letter from Ixopo, from the constituency of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). If I were to read this letter to you, you would see what my problem is. These large forestry companies buy land at very high prices on the upper reaches of the rivers: in other words, in the catchment areas. They buy farms there at very high prices, knowing full well that the people lower down in the thorn-bush region would be dependent upon the run-off from those areas. Although it is said that the influence of afforestation on water is not very great, I can tell you that the average flow of the Ixopo River over the past ten years has decreased from seven cusecs to three cusecs as a result of the afforestation in its upper reaches. Sir, these large companies are very clever, and this morning I do not want to plead for these private companies to be restricted, but what I do, in fact, want to plead for is that the private individual should be placed in the position in which it is not necessary for him to accept these attractive offers which the large firms make to him. It is ironic that these large firms buy, at tremendously high prices, those farms which are situated at the mouths of the fountains which eventually become the rivers which flow into the low-veld. [Time expired.]

As I was saying just now when my time expired, the position is that we have this one factory which is providing virtually the only market in South Africa for pine pulp wood timber. Another factory is now starting up near Durban for the production of paper, and that factory is to import its pulp wood. Sir, this makes absolute economic nonsense. Here is the raw material grown in South Africa by private growers and by the Forestry Department. More than enough is being grown with the result that growers are being told, “Leave your trees standing; we cannot buy them from you,” and at the same time the factory is working flat-out, to full capacity, preventing other people from coming in and establishing themselves. Then another factory, which wants to start manufacturing paper, comes along and it needs pulp, for which we have the trees but we merely lack the means to grind that timber up and turn it into pulp so that this new factory can use it. It is establishing itself and it is now going to buy heaven only knows how much in the way of pulp from overseas, importing it into this country when we ourselves have all the raw material here. Sir, this is economic nonsense. Sir, I want to say this, and the Minister will appreciate it, and this is one of the reasons why we are so glad that the Minister of Water Affairs is the Minister of Forestry, and why we asked the Prime Minister last year to try to make this change to help us: A factory which seeks to establish itself on a river, where the river is likely to be polluted as a result of its manufacture of timber products, cannot be permitted to do so by the Minister of Water Affairs, and I hope that the Minister of Forestry is going to listen to the Minister of Water Affairs in this regard. But this factory can be established so as to produce pulp in South Africa and to break the monopoly which is being held at the present time by virtually this one concern. Sir, in this Digest which I have here, it is indicated that a programme of further massive investment is still necessary to keep pace with the demand for paper in South Africa. The report says this—

It goes on to say—

Sir, I am not complaining about Sappi being business like in its conduct of affairs. I am not complaining about that at all. They are entitled to make a profit and pay dividends, and so far as I am concerned they are a vast concern which is a wonderful market for South African products. But, Sir, that position itself is unhealthy in the overall picture. We do not want public money invested in the Forestry Department, producing pine for pulp purposes as a by-product, to be in competition with the private grower who is using his own capital, as the hon. member for Vryheid said just now, producing pine which, even if it is as the result of the pruning of his plantations, is a by-product for which he must be paid so as to keep his own business going. It is vital to his existence; it is not vital to the existence of the Forestry Department. Sir, this is basic in our consideration of this particular matter.

Now I want to move to the next point and that is this: Last year I asked for an investigation into the big concern that is controlling more than 50 per cent of the wattlebark milling quota in South Africa. Sir, there was a certain amount of exception taken to my request by the then Minister of Forestry. In fact, if he had known anything about his portfolio at all, he would have been very cross with me, but he could not get too angry because he could not come back at me because he did not know anything about his portfolio, which was a sad state of affairs. Sir, the present Minister will not be cross with me. I want to say that if ever I was justified in criticism in this House, I was justified in making the remarks which I made here last year, calling for an inquiry into the dominating financial interest in the South African wattle industry in the preparation of tanning extract. Because if we are to judge by what we read in the newspapers to-day, that concern which had the controlling interest last year and the dominating position in the production of tanning extract, has now been taken over by another concern altogether, an international concern from outside South Africa. Only last night on the news I heard grave complaints being made by a very prominent gentleman associated with the agricultural industry in South Africa, from the Transvaal, who complained about overseas companies with no direct representation here in South Africa, who are running affairs in South Africa and over which we have no control. Here, Sir, is a classic case. I think there should be an inquiry into this particular matter, particularly now that the takeover has been announced. Here we sit with our major market in South Africa for our own product which is being manufactured from trees grown by our own planters, absolutely in the financial hands of an overseas concern over which we have no say, no control and no kind of influence whatsoever. It is wrong and I am one of those who have been squeezed out of it. I can now speak with absolute clarity in my mind, because I have no interest left in it whatsoever. It has cost me R6,000 to R7,000 in the past two years. So b? it. That is the price I have paid because we wanted organization. I was the first one and for six to seven years we pleaded with the then Minister of Forestry, Mr. Sauer, for such an organization. In the end we did get such an organization. We have a good Bill and a fine statutory instrument and I was one of the first to suffer. I accept this without complaint and now I can come with clean hands. I want to ask the Minister to investigate this matter. How far are we going to have the destiny of our wattle growers in the hands of an overseas company which does not have any kind of regard whatever for South African interests? That company is only concerned with one thing, namely to make its profits in the light of international interests. If it does not make them in South Africa, it will make them in the Argentine, or somewhere else. But this is wrong and an investigation will not hurt. If an investigation shows that everything is as it should be and the hon. the Minister is satisfied, well and good. The hon. the Minister can then say to this House that as a result of the investigation he is satisfied and has no complaints and that that is the way he would like to see the position in South Africa. On the other hand, if there is cause for complaint and if there is a need that South Africa should be master in its own house in regard to these matters, then the opportunity will be there for the hon. the Minister to take action, because he has powers under the Act. If the hon. the Minister needs further powers we will give them to him. The hon. the Minister need not worry about asking us for further powers. We will give him powers in regard to these matters so that all branches of our forestry industry shall be put on a healthy basis, on an economic basis and provide, what we believe, is a fair basis for a very good and responsible section of the South African agricultural economy, based on the timber industry right throughout our country in its various branches.

Mr. Chairman, further to the statement made here by the hon. member for Vryheid, I just want to point out to the hon. the Minister the conflicting interests which exist among, for example, soil conservation, water yield or water conservation, and afforestation. When we want to apply soil conservation, we must ensure proper vegetation; otherwise silting up of all our dams takes place and reduces the storage volume for our water. On the other hand, if maximum water output is the object, we must actually, as far as soil conservation is concerned, let things take their own course and simply forget about soil conservation. It is said that afforestation is detrimental to the down-flow of water. I consulted quite a few research sources in connection with this matter, and it appears to me that the facts are not convincing at all and that the experiments were not carried out over a sufficiently long period. Therefore they did not impress me at all. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what the standpoint of the various departments is, and whether there is not perhaps some policy aspect or other which would apply here. Many reckless statements are made about the possibility of afforestation being detrimental to the run-off of water. I have sometimes wondered whether this is not simply a temporary facet, and whether it is not perhaps simply wishful thinking on the part of people making these statements. I therefore want to ask whether this matter cannot definitely be investigated, particularly as far as the hydrological aspects of afforestation are concerned. When one consults the facts, it is very clear that the hydrology of forestry is actually something about which we can still do a great deal in South Africa. These facts still fall very far short of the mark. I want to content myself with these few remarks.

Mr. Chairman, I very briefly want to refer to the hon. member for Etosha’s approach. I consider this a very interesting matter and one which definitely requires attention and a comprehensive study. I can also tell the hon. member that there are quite a number of facts available, and perhaps the hon. member did not go into the matter deeply enough and devote enough time to it. If he should have any doubts about forests needing a lot of water, and if he were to try to plant them in South-West Africa, he would soon find out that problems develop. There is, of course, the approach that, because forests use water they are planted in the high rainfall areas. I do not want to dwell on that any further, and I hope the hon. the Minister will give us some information about this important matter.

In the first place I want to begin by referring to the importance of forestry and its products in our country. I particularly want to emphasize this, since we frequently find the idea prevalent that undertakings such as Iscor, Foscor and Sasol were the only ones established by the State in this country. When tracing the history of forestry, we find that it was actually the first large-scale industry which was established here by the State. I find that in the Estimates of 1918-T9, the first £50,000 were voted for afforestation, because the legislators of those days foresaw the problems we would have if we could not supply our own future needs in respect of wood and its by-products. At that time the State determined that about 300,000 acres would be suitable for afforestation, and planting was then begun with this modest £50,000. We know to-day that that calculation was altogether wrong. The State has already afforested 300,000 morgen, and 840,000 morgen has been afforested by private individuals. More than 2,000 private owners are involved in this afforestation. I find this very encouraging, but as a result of the arguments of the hon. member for South Coast, to the effect the State must withdraw and give preference to private people, I nevertheless want to point out that, while the State initiated this whole industry which has now grown so tremendously, in about 1935 the problem arose that not sufficient people were coming to the fore to utilize the forests. The trees were large and wood had to be processed. The State was then forced to build saw-mills in order to put these forests to use, and the State also gave guidance here and transferred its experience to the private sector in order to stimulate the saw-mill industry. At present there are still nine State saw-mills which process 12 million cubic feet of wood annually. This wood is only obtained from State forests. Private sawmills are already processing 56 million cubic feet of wood annually. I just feel that we should put this matter in perspective and I want to mention that these private saw-mills draw half of their wood from State forests. The State is the supplier of the raw product to the processors.

Then I want to mention the next step, i.e. marketing. It is always very well to say that we must produce, but the marketing question remains a cardinal one. After the ordinary processing of wood and the supplying of containers and construction wood, etc., we have the very important paper industry, which has developed in this country, particularly in recent years. I just want to mention that the Volkskas Finance and Trade Review of December, 1968, contains a very comprehensive study, i.e. “The pulp and paper industry in the Republic of South Africa”, written by Professor Marais of the University of South Africa. In that article there are a great many facts and particulars. Inter alia, it is shown how the industry in South Africa developed over a period of 30 years and how important it is at present. What I find interesting and would like to mention is the following:

I mention this for the sake of interest because nowhere have I found any favourable comment in writing about Afrikaans Sunday newspapers, but here I now have done so, in this important article. The possible development of a monopoly in the paper industry is, however, very important. The hon. member for South Coast referred to this, but I do not think that we must now say that the State must cease to supply wood pulp and give preference to the private grower. I think that we must try to achieve a dynamic balance in that connection. Therefore, I feel that the hon. the Minister should, in fact, give attention to the further development of the paper industry. The State has already given attention to this. The Minister must continue to do so so that competition will take place. From the facts at my disposal I have found that there is a new mill being established in Natal, and there is also co-operation with the existing undertaking in the paper and plate industry to prevent them producing too much paper. The hon. member said that pulp was still being imported, but quite a lot of processed paper is also being exported. I therefore want to suggest that, since the State and existing undertakings have already invested in this industry and stimulated it, the State should, in fact, now give close attention to the establishment of another paper mill. In my opinion this stimulus was very important. I think that there are quite a few of our forests in respect of which there are shortcomings because actually we cannot process all the by-products of our wood efficiently. The State should, in fact, give close attention to the establishment of another paper mill, even though the State stimulated the establishment of the first one. The State must give a measure of stimulus to the development of an additional mill so that the possible development of a monopoly in the paper industry can hereby, to a large extent, be counteracted. However, as has been said, I understand that the various interested groups have already held discussions so that they would not work at cross purposes.

There is another matter which I want to deal with briefly, if I have sufficient time in which to do so. This is the question of the fire protection committees. Sections 12 and 14 of the Soil Conservation Act of 1969 make provision for declaring an area a fire protection area and for the establishment of fire protection committees. Reference is also made to this in the Forest Act. In my opinion, in view of the fact that the Department of Forestry is pre-eminently equipped for this task, in areas where they carry out forestry and have permanent officials, I want to ask that the Minister give consideration to holding consultations with the Minister of Agriculture, so that this task, where possible, could be assigned to the Department of Forestry, and so that >the committees could consist of officials of the Department of Forestry. I ask this because these people are permanently on duty and are more organized than a group of farmers who, as a result of circumstances, sometimes have farm labourers available and who, at other times, are very busy. I think that they are pre-eminently equipped for this task and I want to ask the hon. the Minister to think along these lines, because I am convinced that it would be in everyone’s interests.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Etosha has raised a point which I think the hon. the Minister has already conceded. I wish to refer to the conclusions of the inter-departmental committee of investigation into afforestation and water supplies. One of the conclusions of the committee which appeared under the heading “Catchment Management” was that “the committee finds that no generally serious shortages of water which can be confidently ascribed to the limited afforestation have developed in the regions investigated”. I want to make the point that the committee found that no generally serious shortage of water can be ascribed to the limited afforestation in the regions investigated. The report states further:

This is the important point. Last year the hon. the Minister as Deputy Minister of Water Affairs declared the area to which I referred yesterday, namely the Nyamvubu and Ixopo areas to be controlled areas. When he did this, I think he conceded my point, namely that afforestation will have a local effect on specific catchment areas of specific streams. I think that the conclusions of the committee were quite definite in this regard. Afforestation in the catchment areas has had a serious effect on the flow of streams in certain areas. The Minister has taken the necessary steps. I was extremely interested to hear yesterday that the hon. the Minister is considering now to pass the control of those areas he has already declared as controlled areas over to the Department of Forestry. That, I think, is the correct thing to do. The Department of Forestry has, after all, been investigating the question of stream flow and afforestation for years. I am impressed by some of the work which, according to the report, has been done at Cathedral Peak. On page 93 of the report I see that catchment A will be afforested with eucalyptus saligna in 1969, i.e. after having been calibrated for 12 years. Now we have a definite standard against which to measure the effects of afforestation with saligna in that area, which is a high rainfall area. I also notice that catchment B will be conservatively grazed by sheep for an indefinite period, while catchment C will be afforested with pinus patula in 1973, i.e. after having been calibrated for 16 years. Here, I think, we have an answer, certainly in that area of Natal, whereby we can measure definitely the effects of these different practices. Under the Water Affairs Vote I pointed out that there were certain practices which would have to be applied. For instance, the grass cover has got to be retained. In this connection the committee’s finding was that a well managed covering of grass is the best way to maintain stream flow. The problem is to determine which practices are going to be the practices calculated to ensure a cover on the ground. We do not want the soil to be eroded; that would be worse than afforesting it. Forests would at least hold the ground while acting as a positive measure of soil conservation.

I do not think the hon. member for Nelspruit understood the hon. member for South Coast quite correctly. The point the hon. member for South Coast was making about the private grower is that the private grower should have the first opportunity to market pulp wood and that the State should look to an export market rather or for some other means for disposing of the pulp wood it has got to thin out from its forests. The point made by the hon. member for South Coast was that for the State pulp wood was a by-product to the saw logs. The hon. member for Nelspruit was quite correct in stating that the State to-day was one of the greatest users of saw logs. I do not see that the private industry is showing any tremendous interests in this direction. But the pulpwood the private grower is producing on short rotation is of tremendous importance to the small farmer if he can be assured of a regular and orderly market for the pulpwood he produces.

I was particularly interested to see in the interdepartmental committee’s report on the relation of afforestation and the preservation of water that the average annual amount of water used by a plantation of a given species grown on short rotation is less than that used by that same species on a similar site when grown on long rotation. The department should take this into consideration. Here I come to the point I want to make, i.e. about the extension services of the Department of Forestry. There is a section in the department’s report about these services. As far as I can make out, these services were more or less confined to exhibitions at shows, talks to bodies of people, and that type of thing. This is not the type of extension I want the department to undertake. What I should like to see is the private farmer being practically instructed, because what it comes down to, a point also made by the hon. member for Vryheid, is the participation of the private farmer in the forest industry. The reason why large companies have bought out farmers and established large tracts of land is that they could not rely upon the private farmer to produce a guaranteed quantity of timber. That happened in the wattle industry for instance. Two mills are being moved and hundreds of people will go out of wattle. If you base an organization like SAPPI on private growers, who may at any time change their minds about whether or not to plant plantations, one can realize the tremendous problem such an organization has to face. But in the Natal Midlands there are thousands of acres which to-day are not being used to their maximum potential, a potential which only afforestation could give them. In this connection the point has been made before, now again by the hon. member for Vryheid, that there should be State aid to what the S.A. Timber Growers Association calls the “woodlot” farmer—the chap who has odd patches of ground which cannot be beneficially used for grazing, which he then puts under trees. This is the type of thing I should like the Department of Forestry to undertake. The committee which considered private forestry asked that the staff of the Department of Forestry should be expanded to allow them to undertake this type of work. I know every Minister is only too pleased to hear that the staff of his department should be expanded. That is the old Parkinson’s law. But in this case such an expansion would be completely justified and I urge upon the Minister to give more attention to interesting the farmer, because to-day in the Natal Midlands and particularly in the wattle growing area the interest of the farmer has been lost. They have been dealt a severe blow. As a result, thousands of acres of trees are being taken out and, what is more, this is on the average good farming land. In the old days people did not have bulldozers or the mechanical power to provide roads. As a result, they planted trees on land which to-day is being reverted to agriculture. Where trees have to be planted on the rougher portions, the farmer turns his back on it. If the private farmer is to retain his place in the forest industry, if he has to have any secure stake and future in this industry, this is something the department should look at. As a matter of fact, I hope that the Minister will be able to do something of this nature in order to recapture the imagination of the farming community. Here I speak specifically for the whole of my constituency and for a great part of the Natal Midlands.

The other point I want to raise is whether the department is prepared to assist the S.A. Timber Growers’ Association, the Wattle Growers’ Union and other interested bodies, in producing something like the wool mark for leather. [Time expired.]

When my previous turn to speak elapsed, I was just busy pointing out the economic utilization of land by its afforestation. I do not want the impression to be created that I want the Department of Forestry to be handicapped. It does, in fact, remain the task of the Department of Forestry to promote forestry in general and not to curtail it. But what I am opposed to is that the Department of Forestry itself should reserve the right to encourage afforestation on land which could be utilized to greater economic advantage in another way. We know that, as far as blue gum and even fir trees are concerned, one obtains, at present prices, an income of about R16 per acre per year. It is a better income than one would receive from many grazing areas, particularly in the sour veld areas where there is a very high rainfall. With present-day technological development in the field of agriculture, afforested areas can, with that high rainfall, yield much greater incomes to the individual or company farmer if the land is withdrawn from forestry and applied for agricultural purposes. Forestry can then be applied on the grazing areas of that farm, as my hon. friend said here.

Afforestation has become a matter which is dear to everyone’s heart. Mention was made here of the fact that thousands of acres were withdrawn from forestry because the farmers were, in fact, deceived by quotas being allocated to them and to the factories. This upset the farmers a great deal. For example, if a factory does not like the colour of a farmer’s eyes it is very easy for that factory to tell the farmer that it had already taken up its quota. This could mean that that farmer would have to transport his bark miles further in order to obtain a market for it. The point here is that this loose federation of interests in the timber industry is something that lends itself to malpractices. We are opposed to this and we want a firm foundation to be established.

As far as the planting of blue gum trees is concerned, I am aware of the fact that in its report the Department states that the water consumpion of trees is exaggerated. But it has been scientifically proved that a blue gum tree, for example, in the warm parts with a high rainfall, uses 237 gallons of water per day in its tenth year of growth. The contrary could not yet be proved. Allow me to refer to the Minister’s own constituency. The Louis Trichardt Dam was emptied as a result of the planting of blue gum trees. This resulted in people there having to convey water across a distance of 33 miles at tremendous expense. I claim that it is not only the subterranean water level which is prejudiced by the planting of those trees, but even the surface fountains as well because they dry up completely, while there is no great fluctuation in the average annual rainfall. Therefore I think it would be a good thing for the Minister and his Department to prohibit altogether the afforestation of the catchment areas of our rivers, particularly in respect of trees with a long growth period and a consequently high water consumption. We are actually pleading for a control board under the Marketing Act, although it could remain under the Department of Forestry. We do not want to curtail the activities of the Department of Forestry. All we want to do is to protect what is absolutely necessary. If, at this stage, I may refer to my own constituency, I just want to say that there are literally thousands of morgen of good agricultural ground hired out under a 30-vear contract at R7 per acre per year by the owner of the land. He is now a squatter on his own land. It is fine arable land. However, blue gum trees are now being planted there. We know that that ground is lost to us and to our descendants, because to clear up a piece of ground, on which there was a blue gum plantation, costs more than it would cost to buy land in Argentina or in another country. Each blue gum tree must virtually be taken out separately. They cannot simply be pushed over with a bulldozer. There is no machinery yet invented that is large enough to push out a 60 ft.-high blue gum tree with a tap root 60 ft. deep. I just want to mention a practical example. Long before I was born a row of blue gum trees was planted on the piece of land on which I am now farming. When I was born those trees had already been chopped down. Last year I wanted to plough that field and found that they were still virtually on the surface. Of course, it was still, as the old people called it, the blue gum with the knotted grain. I found that those roots were still exactly as they had been. I had to dig each one out separately to a depth of 6 ft., chop it off and cover it with soil again so that I could use that land for other purposes. The tree stumps remain unscathed underground because the water level is high and the trees get little air. Therefore they do not rot, as in the case of the period of shorter use. I really consider this to be a serious matter. Since the Minister is also Minister of Water Affairs, and since we are speaking about a question which could prove damaging in the future to us and to our descendants, I want to ask that we should at least look after our land. We should take timely measures and create bodies which can evidence the same degree of planning for all concerned with forestry, as was done, judging from this report, in respect of State forests. This includes the Department of Bantu Administration, the State and also private growers. If we could deal with them all under one roof we would be able to eliminate all these irregularities, for example in respect of prices, in the question of the downgrading of forestry products after they reach the furthest point and in that kind of game which is played by certain companies these days. Then we would know that there was a body which could act contractually between consumer and producer. This could only be a control body. It must not be established in terms of an act such as the Wattle Bark Industry Act or the Sugar Act. We farmers would not easily allow ourselves to become squatters on our own farms once again, as was caused by those two Acts in the past. I am grateful for this opportunity to speak about these problems. We hope that some of these matters, which were mentioned, will be implemented or that there will at least be some research done in this connection.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vryheid has made a very earnest and real plea to the hon. the Minister and his Department with regard to the planting of blue gum trees. There is only one little point on which I could differ with the hon. member. That was when he spoke about the planting of blue gum trees in the sources of rivers which, he suggested, “verbied moet word”. He suggested that this must be prohibited. I wonder if perhaps he is not a little bit too strong on that point.

I referred to the catchment areas and not the sources of rivers.

Well, even in the catchment areas. It is pertinent there as well that I wonder whether it should perhaps not be controlled rather than forbidden. Perhaps he put that a little bit too strongly. However, I am not going to argue with him on this point. I want to support him also in what he has said about wattle and the poor unfortunate farmers who no longer can produce wattle. I have many of them in my constituency as well. I hone that the hon. the Minister and his Department will watch out that this does not happen again.

I want to associate myself with the hon. member for South Coast, the hon. member for Vryheid and those who welcomed the hon. the Minister to this portfolio. It is the first time we have had the opportunity of discussing this with him personally. We also want to welcome the Secretary who now as somebody said, has one year behind his back. We hope that we will now get something out of this Department. It has for years been a Cinderella department as has been pointed out so often. It has been shunted backwards and forwards to different Ministers. We hope that we will have the present team for a long time, though not too long. I hope this team will at least be given time to get on and really do something especially as at last we have what we have pleaded for for so many years, namely the association of this portfolio with the portfolio of water.

Last year I discussed the question of statistics with the then incumbent of this post. The hon. the Minister pointed out to me that the new Act which was then in the process of being passed provided for the collation of statistics by the Department. They could call for such statistics, in fact could demand them in certain cases. I want to know what the Department has done in this connection. How far have they gone with regard to the collection of statistics? They have presented us with a very good and a very comprehensive annual report. But this report only deals with Government forests. When one comes to the section of statistics one finds that there are 42 tables. These tables are very comprehensive. But they only deal with Government plantations, those under the control of this Department and under the control of the South African Bantu Trust. Unfortunately it has once again been left to the private sector to get on with the job and to undertake what really was a function of the Government. The Federation of Timber Associations has produced two excellent reports.

The first one is a report of plantation statistics which is very comprehensive. I am sure the hon. the Minister and his Department have copies of this report. I am sure that if the Department collate the information contained in this report, together with what is in their report, we are at last going to get some picture of the plantations in South Africa. From this projections can be made and ultimately we are going to have statistics which will be of use to the timber industry as a whole. It will be of use, not only from the growers’ point of view but also from the point of view of the consumer. The second report is on current and short-term forecast demand for round logs. This, from the point of view of a consumer of timber, is absolutely invaluable. It is now at last putting the manufacturer in a position where he can plan ahead, knowing what is coming. This report covers a tremendous range, from the type of timber through the demand figures, to the areas covered and the period covered is from 1967 to a projection for the year 1971. I sincerely hope that the hon. the Minister’s Department is now going to go ahead and work on this firm base that the Federation has given us. I hope that the Department will go on on the basis which the Federation has started. I might mention in passing that the Federation is to be complimented on these returns, as well as the growers who co-operated. I do want to appeal to those growers who have not sent in their returns, or who have sent in their returns late, that they should also co-operate in future with their Federation and the Department, so that we can get accurate statistics for this industry.

Last year I mentioned to the hon. the Minister’s predecessor that the production of sawlogs had grown to the point where we no longer need to import building timber. I also mentioned that they were in fact facing the position of an overproduction. I also asked him what they were going to do to seek other markets, and to stimulate the consumption of timber, particularly in this country. In his reply the hon. the Minister mentioned the question of industrialized timber houses to me. In passing, I just want to say that I received a note from a South African visiting the United States who said that it was the exception to find a house built of brick in the Northern States of New York. He said that he saw very few houses which were built of bricks. I think that with acute shortage of housing which we have, the time has come when we will have to make use of this type of housing. The ease with which these structures can be erected and the prices at which these buildings can be erected make it necessary that this must be stimulated. I was disappointed to see in the Annual Report of the South African Timber Growers’ Association the following remark—

This is where last year I hoped that the hon. the Minister would do some form of research through the Department. I want to mention an experience I had since I last spoke to this Committee on this particular subject. I needed two residential units at Hammarsdale in a hurry. I received quotations for indstrialized timber houses. They were houses with three bedrooms, lounge, dining room and all the necessary facilities. The quotation was for R6,500 each. Unforunately, before I could build them the Railways expropriated the land on which I wanted to build these houses. Then, not having sufficient land on which to build two houses, I had to resort to two concrete-and-brick-built flats. These flats covered smaller areas, but they worked out at R1O,000 each, compared with R6.500 for a larger unit of industrialized timber.

You have been swindled.

I hope not. Now I come again to the report of the S.A. Timber Growers’ Association, where they write about this question of research, and where the point I raised with the Minister’s Department last year comes in. They say—

This appears to be the problem, that we are trying to be too fanciful. I know that the Department of Community Development has accepted it, that many local authorities to-day are accepting timber houses, and that building societies are now advancing money on them. We have to educate the public to accept them, and as long as we are being silly with complicated designs and production methods as mentioned here, we will not sell these houses. May I suggest to the Minister and his Department that they investigate this matter and encourage research to the greatest degree. Let us get on and produce these houses, which will solve two problems, not only the shortage of houses in this country but also the problem of the over-production of timber. This is a primary interest of the Minister, I know, and I am sure that this can be done, particularly in the light of advances which have been made in this country and overseas in regard to finger-jointing, lamination, etc. There should be no shortage of building timber in this country and I commend this to the hon. the Minister.

The hon. member for Vryheid referred here to the indiscriminate planting of blue gum trees in areas which are suitable for agriculture and where one is subsequently faced with the problem of trees that have to be removed at very great expense in order to use the ground for other and better purposes. I should like to take this opportunity of focussing attention on the Western Cape area, which is actually very treeless by comparison with the Eastern parts of our country. It is treeless, largely because of a relatively low rainfall, but it is an area which nevertheless deserves our serious attention, because in this region we have an extensive soil erosion problem as a result of wind action.

There are various areas in which large tracts are simply blown away, in which there is a stretch of up to 2,000 morgen which has become drift sand and dunes as a result of the scarcity of any vegetation. Here to-day I want to ask the Department of Forestry to give its serious attention to this Western Cape area, i.e. the districts of Piketberg, Clanwilliam and Vredendal, in order to see whether, through the Department of Forestry, we cannot also make a contribution to the combating of wind erosion by the planting of the kinds of trees which can grow in those particular climatic conditions and whether we cannot assist in checking this tremendous destruction to our soil. The Department of Agricultural Technical Services is combating that wind erosion at very great expense by planting reeds and other vegetation growing in the valleys and rivers. [Interjection.] The hon. member for Stellenbosch drew my attention to the fact that it is the Department of Forestry. If this is so, I want to mention, with appreciation, the work that is being done, but I want to ask that we carry out investigations to discover whether we cannot do more along those lines in order to combat erosion in other areas where it has not yet taken place, by the timely planting of forests or trees which can afford a covering to the soil. I have in mind parts such as the Redelinghuys area in the northern part of the Piketberg District, a little distance from the sea, where one has a reasonable subterranean water level which is not very low.

At Redelinghuys one sees blue gum trees growing to a tremendous height, with very thick trunks that could supply a great deal of wood for economic utilization at a later stage. But, merely to improve the dismal appearance of that part of the world, I should very much like to see the Department of Forestry granting assistance and purposefully cultivating certain plantations, even if they are only experimental plantations in order to see what can be achieved. I am convinced of the fact that there are parts where blue gum trees could be planted very successfully without the danger of that land subsequently being needed for agricultural purposes. In that part of the world land is still cheap and I think that the Department could obtain a few thousand morgen there at very little expense. I want to express the hope that serious attention will be given to that. I also have in mind the western part of the Clanwilliam district, where good possibilities exist. The railway line traverses that area. If one were to lay out a blue gum plantation there, the wood could easily be transported to a station in order to be utilized.

Then I want to request your attention for another matter, i.e. the controlling of fires in our mountains. It is actually a very tragic fact that our mountains in the Boland are set alight every five or seven years. An example is the Riebeek-Kasteel mountain, so called because at a distance it looks like Van Riebeeck’s castle. That is how the first travellers saw the mountain; it rises a little above its surroundings. There is no control. The mountain lies between various farms. I have been familiar with it for the past 25 years. One can almost predict that every six or seven years someone will make a fire on one side of the mountain or the other and set the mountain on fire. This is so spectacular that people come from Paarl, Wellington and Cape Town to see our mountain burning. I am just mentioning this because I actually find this to be an example of what happens periodically through the entire Western Cape, particularly in the dry season.

I want to ask the Department to give attention the question of the periodic large-scale destruction by mountain fires. Can we not do something about it? I want to tell the Minister that old inhabitants, such as a certain Mr. Niewoudt in the Sederberge, say that the Department’s policy is altogether wrong; they permit no fires and then, when a fire occurs, one has that heavy covering of vegetation and dry wood and it burns like a haystack. He is a very reliable person; he says that he can give his word that in his region, in one year, the veld was set alight in eight places, not by people, but by lightning. You know that it is an area between the summer and winter rainfall belts, and he says that it is not necessarily always people who set the veld alight; it is lightning. When there is thunder, fire breaks out at some place or other and then the mountain burns until denuded of all vegetation.

I should like to submit for consideration that thought be given to having controlled fires, that the areas be demarcated and that from time to time, when the veld becomes too dense, it should be burned where there are no usable trees. Those people tell us that the original natural cedar trees of the Sederberge were totally destroyed. You can count the remaining trees on the fingers of your one hand. The cedar trees remaining to-day are trees which the Department planted at great expense, and I want to express my appreciation for that venture. But we shall have to examine this matter, because it deserves our serious attention, in order to see whether there cannot be a better form of control. Where possible we must remove excessive dry vegetation from time to time, so that, when a fire breaks out, one avoids having a continuous stretch in which the vegetation is such that the fire can simply progress unchecked. I want to express the hope that the hon. the Minister and his Department will give serious attention to this great need in our West Coast area, the northern part of the Piketberg District and the western part of Clanwilliam, to see whether we cannot do more by the planting of suitable trees in that area, which could prove not only of economic value, but of value in helping us with the tremendous wind erosion with which we are faced. Let us try to develop a policy to prevent the mountains of our Boland from being destroyed from time to time by fires over which we have no control, with the consequent destruction of useful and valuable vegetation, our wealth of flowers and even our wild life.

Mr. Chairman, when my time expired last time I spoke, I was asking the hon. the Minister whether he and the Department would consider some kind of support and assistance being given to bodies such as the South African Wattlegrowers Union to get a leather mark on rather similar lines to the wool mark. Sir, my hon. friend, the member for Graaff-Reinet is not here, but many of us farmers on occasion wear a tie bearing the wool mark. This has had a tremendous success throughout the world in propagating the sale of pure, new, virgin wool. Sir, it has had fantastic success, and I believe that the future of the wool industry has been assured against any kind of competition that the commercial interests, the people who make artificial fibre, can bring.

I am not so sure about that.

I am quite certain of it. Wool has been established as a prestige fibre. It has a name in the world to-day, and we would very much like to see the same sort of thing being done for leather, something which is of guaranteed quality. The purity of the substance which goes into the making of the product should be guaranteed, whether it is handbags or coats or dresses or mini-skirts or whatever else it might happen to be. I believe that this is something in which the hon. the Minister’s Department should be interested, because I think that the tanning industry, and the leather industry in South Africa, do not have the tremendous financial resources which were available to the wool industry when they launched the wool mark. But the precedent has now been established, and I think this is something which would benefit the farming community as a whole, not only the wattle farmers and the tanning industry but those who produce hides and skins for tanning as well. I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister how he would feel about a move of this sort.

Then I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. member for Piketberg in relation to fire protection. I had occasion last year to write to the Secretary of the Department in connection with the fire protection of the mountain areas of Natal. As I have said before a great deal of my constituency lies along the Basutoland border. Farmers in that area are very conscious of fires. Throughout the whole of my constituency we are very concerned about fires, and every year we take active steps to burn what we regard as adequate fire breaks.

Farmers who border on forests of the Department of Forestry—I refer to the Underberg Association and other associations in that area—have assured me that they make a point of burning breaks along the property which is held by the Forestry Department, because it is uninhabited and there is nobody there to keep a look-out and to give early warning that fires may be breaking out. Sir, one of the problems is that having burnt a break, frost can burn off any little growth of grass that may grow there and allow a fire to run across the break which you have burnt. This is what happened last year when a fire ran through about ten farms, totally destroying the reserves of fodder and everything else on at least two farms in the area, completely wiping out the hay and everything that they had stored up. The fire came from a forest of the Forestry Department, ran across the break which had been burnt off by the frost and came to the farming areas.

Sir, I wonder whether it would not be possible for the Forestry Department to take steps to burn perhaps a second break when you are deeper into the winter, under control, along the areas adjoining the farming areas, because a fire break which is burnt at the end of June in those particular areas where the frost starts to fall at the beginning of May, would then have the effect of inhibiting any fire coming across. The tendency there is to burn a break as soon as the grass will burn, as soon as you have a frost to burn a break, and after that, if you get a warm period, there is a little growth of grass which then frosts off. I think the farmers in that area would be very interested indeed to hear from the Forestry Department whether an eye can be kept on this because it is very damaging indeed to farmers in those areas to have these fires coming across from the areas of the Forestry Department.

Sir, I would like to make one or two comments on the report presented to us. I want to say that I was impressed with that part of the report, under the heading of General Administration, which is concerned with the safety of employees of the Department. Sir, those of us who work in the forestry business and who work everyday with buzz saws and that kind of thing, know that this is one of the most hazardous occupations. A tree coming down is dangerous; felling with buzz saws is doubly dangerous and the handling of mechanical equipment under the wet and slippery conditions under which the forester so often has to operate, is additionally hazardous. I am very grateful indeed to see what care is being taken to instruct ail persons who are working in the Forestry Department in occupational safety. This is something which I think is of the utmost importance, and I wonder whether this question of extension cannot perhaps be brought home to other farmers, because sometimes when you visit farms you see things going on which make your hair stand on end. Sir, another point that I wish to raise is the question of afforestation in the Swartkop Bantu Reserve near Pietermaritzburg. I see from the report that there is an area of some two thousand odd acres and that an additional area of 43 acres was afforested last year. Sir, I know that area quite well and I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister whether this is commercial forestry; whether this is something which is being done on a sustained yield basis; whether it is firewood production for the local Bantu living in that area, or what exactly the intention is in afforesting an area such as this. The 43 acres is neither here nor there. I think there are considerable areas of ground in the Swartkops area which could be afforested beneficially because they are close to markets. There are sawmills in Pietermaritzburg which could very easily utilize any timber produced there. It is a very rough area further away from Pietermaritzburg and it is carrying a very dense Bantu population. Now that the plantations have been established there I would like to hear from the hon. the Minister who is responsible for fire control. Is this the responsibility of the Department and its officials, or is it the responsibility of the local headman and the Bantu authorities in those areas? Sir, anybody who establishes timber is establishing an asset which is growing into money continually, and I think that the control of fires in those areas should be in the hands of the Department. I should be interested to know who exactly does have control over those areas.

Sir, one of the things that struck me in reading the report of the Minister’s Department is the number of fires started in forest areas by honey hunters. Sir, this is an extraordinary thing. I think some 37 per cent of fires started in the forest reserves are started by honey hunters. Surely, we ought to be able to do something about this. The problem, of course, is prosecution because the persons who start these fires are usually little Africans.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I should like to refer to what the hon. member for South Coast said when expressing his concern about the possibility of foreign interests monopolizing our forestry industry. I believe this to be a substantial danger and I do not believe that we can simply let the matter slip. We ought to give attention to it in order to see what we can do to prevent it developing further.

Then I should like to associate myself with what the hon. members for Piketberg and Mooi River said when they referred here to veld fires. This is something which is constantly increasing each year, and the ensuing devastation is assuming ever greater proportions. One can do nothing to prevent this. We all know this. One can adopt no preventative measures. But what one could, in fact, do is to try to combat veld fires. In an organized manner when they break out. I feel that we could perhaps do a lot in that respect by coordinating various associations and interests and by establishing fire protection associations.

To come back to the Budget debate, I notice that an amount of R57,000 rs being appropriated this year for forest research. The amount last year was R39,5OO. This consequently means an increase of R17,500. In the report of the Secretary for Forestry, mention is made of the improvement in the timber quality of, in particular, the eucalyptus species. Now I should, in all modesty like to ask the hon. the Minister a small question. I do so for the sake of obtaining information. How does our eucalyptus species compare with the Australian species. And how do our conifer trees compare with those of the rest of the world? That is in respect of all purposes, for building as well as for boxwood. I cannot neglect to express my appreciation to the Secretary for Forestry for the fine, illuminating and all-embracing report on Forestry which he submitted this year. We learned a lot from it. It gives us a very clear picture of how we are progressing; it is a very interesting and encouraging report. We are glad to be able to state that forestry, particularly in the Eastern Transvaal, has developed to such an extent that at present, by the initiative of the private sector, we have a paper factory at Godaran. to which the hon. member for Nelspruit referred. Sir, we welcome that factory, because in the past a great deal of good wood, with which we could do nothing and which can now be processed into wood pulp, went to waste. This is a step forward. This could also result in the profits of the forester being increased, and his losses decreasing to a minimum.

I want to thank the hon. the Minister most warmly for the amount of R690.000 which has been appropriated for housing at Tweefontein in the Sabi area. I can give him the assurance that the lumbermen greatly appreciate it and that this will encourage them to make their services available to the Department to an increasing extent.

Now there is another small matter which is troubling me a little. When I go to my constituency, and particularly among the lumbermen, I am constantly having to hear of the possibility of the State transferring its sawmills to private undertakings. Those stories are creating unrest among our people. I would appreciate it greatly if the hon. the Minister would make a statement in the House about those stories so that our people can be reassured.

The following aspect which I should like to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention is that, if we look at the report, and also at the report of the “committee of investigation into private forestry in South Africa”, we see that the small forester is very uneasy. Those people have to fight against undertakings that have tremendous capital behind them. They are concerned because the price they get for their trees is always dependent upon the purchaser. They are therefore at the purchaser’s mercy and he can do with them what he likes. Therefore I want to plead for State protection for the small grower and, as other hon. members have said, for the establishment of a control board or a marketing board under the Marketing Act, and for the subsequent grading of the wood according to its type and quality. Prices must then be determined accordingly.

In conclusion I want to emphasize that we are just as responsible for the small forester as for the small farmer. Those people do have the capital. Therefore they cannot compete with these undertakings that are well-provided with capital. Because they also supply an extensive service to our country and to the industry as such, I feel that it is the State’s duty to look after their interests.

Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to my colleague, the hon. member for Mooi River, for closing the gap left by the last few minutes I had to speak, in dealing with the question of the disposal of surplus pine pulp wood that may be produced in South Africa. He pointed out that what I intended, was to indicate that that should be exported. That was the outlet for our surplus.

What I am going to say now, depends upon the professional and technical ability of the staff of the Department of Forestry. Let me say at once that I think we are fortunate to have the dedicated men we have on the professional and technical side. South African forestry owes a very great deal to them. Private forestry is being built up on the examples set by the State forestry, which is being served by these people so well. Therefore, when I talk about the export of our surplus pulp wood, I am dealing with a matter which has already been experimented with here in South Africa, and which was successfully experimented with. Pine pulp wood has been exported. It is true that in the past it seems that after an initial shipment there was a failure to provide further supplies for additional shipments, which is bad from whichever way one looks at it; because if we start exporting, we should maintain our export trade. But having said that, I am not certain that, except for perhaps a very short period, it would be necessary for us to export at all.

Let us view the position to-day in the light of the Forest Act. The information regarding supplies is known. It is available through Satga and the Department. The machinery has been constituted for the information to be readily available. In the reports of the Federation of Timber Associations, the last report which has just been issued, we have all that information virtually tabulated. It is easy to take out the figures. So, it can be easily seen and foreseen for the future what volume of pine pulp timber is likely to be produced in the years that lie ahead. Those figures may indicate that we have what is called a surplus at the present time. I am far from satisfied that it is a surplus. It may be an artificial surplus for the purpose of arranging prices and as a factor in price fixation. But whether there is in fact a genuine surplus, I rather doubt. But, Sir, in any case these figures indicate that in the very next few years there is going to be a shortage of pulp timber. That is why the world report indicates that there should be an injection of vast capital expenditure into the pulp and paper industries in South Africa. But I want to put the following to the Minister. I should like to ask him to take the initiative and through the appropriate official, whether it is the Secretary for Forestry or whoever it may be, to call a conference of the people who are the producers and the manufacturers, to go into this question of the alleged surplus.

The Forestry Department itself has very rigid thinning programmes. These programmes are worked out, and if they are to carry on with proper silvicultural processes, they will have to stick to those rigid thinning programmes. Labour requirements and all the technical requirements of timber growing calls for a rigid adherence to their thinning programmes. Big timber growers, the so-called large growers, are in the same position. But the small grower can adjust himself. Small timber growers, and for that matter the large ones as well, are not going to worry unduly because they cannot get a market for their timber for one or two years, providing they can see that the market is secure in say three or four years time. That is what they want to know. They want to know that the market is secure, not necessarily that they can sell their product to-day. They are not like maize farmers, who have to sell their products in the year in which they produce it, and for whom special financial arrangements are made. There are no special financial arrangements made for the benefit of the timber growers. That is why I suggested a conference, called at the instance of the Minister, so that the matter can be thrashed out and the growers can see clearly what future market lies in store for them. They will have to see whether there is a surplus in South Africa. If there is a surplus, I suggest that the State again export pulp timber, as it did in 1962. The small wood lot grower, that my hon. friend referred to, should be encouraged by every means possible, because that is the man who can be a balancing factor in the production of this class of timber. He can easily be the balancing factor. There must be extension services to reach the small wood lot grower throughout South Africa, particularly where pines can be grown. That goes for the Eastern Transvaal, the eastern part of Natal, the high rainfall areas, and for the Western Cape down here. There are different varieties of pines, it is true. But they are all conifers. They all go through the same mills. With this point in view, I am quite certain that it can be worked out whether there is a real surplus at the present time; if there is not, when demand will meet supply, then the man who is sitting with his timber in his plantation at the present time, will know that in two or three years time he is going to have a market available to him. That is going to stabilize the industry. It is one of the advantages of the fact that we all worked so hard to be able to provide these sets of figures, which are reliable. In the main, they are reliable. If there is a percentage error here and there, it does not matter. If one is dealing with millions of cubic feet of timber, it does not make very much difference, one way or the other. So I would appeal to the Minister to consider in this matter the State taking the initiative and, if necessary, undertaking again the export of pulp timber from South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the hon. the Minister of Forestry on his appointment and to welcome him to this Department. I also want to congratulate him on the fact that his Department is now linked up with the Department of Water Affairs. I consider this to be an ideal state of affairs, particularly as a result of what he said yesterday, under the discussion of the Water Affairs Vote, in respect of the Control of water catchment areas. At present the Department of Forestry as such controls a mere 1.2 million morgen of this catchment area as against a total of 13.3 million morgen of mountain catchment area. Under the discussion of the Water Affairs Vote yesterday the Minister intimated that he had very definite ideas about this and also about where the Department of Forestry would fit into it all. Particularly for that reason I therefore think that it is such an ideal state of affairs that these two Departments should be under the same Ministerial control.

I should also like to point out to-day that this industry and this Department have, for many years, been regarded as inferior or neglected. However, now this industry has developed and grown into one of the largest as well as into one of the key industries in our country. If one looks at the history of this Department and this industry one sees that in 1918 the State placed a meagre R100,000 on the Loan Vote for the development of our plantations. The State placed a small amount of R100,000 on the Loan Vote for that purpose, when a report specifically mentioned the fact that South Africa’s indigenous forests could only provide 5 per cent of our timber needs and that with a view to the future we would have to give serious attention to afforestation. At that time the amount of R100,000 was praised as being a very large amount. At present the Department of Forestry is investing an annual Loan Vote amount of about R12 or R13 million in additional afforestation. This is being done in spite of the fact that the area of State plantations is only 305,000 morgen as against the 846,000 morgen of private forestry property, i.e. about one third. If one compares the amount which is invested in afforestation every year with that which is invested in private afforestation, one gains an impression of the extent of the industry and also of the key role which the Department of Forestry plays in this overall context. In addition one could also mention that in the year 1962-’63 it was calculated that the forestry industry contributed about R240 million per year to the national revenue. This being so, I believe that the Department of Forestry should continue to play its key role, its directive role, in this important industry. In those early years the Department of Forestry had, of necessity, to take the initiative in the laying out of plantations and, in so doing, in artificially supplying the country’s needs by planting forests where nature did not provide them. Then private industry came onto the scene and it also plays a tremendous role to-day. If one regards this against the background of the strategic value of the timber industry to a rapidly growing country, it is clear that the Department of Forestry will have to continue playing this role. The Department of Forestry is not in control of State plantations alone, having a great number of functions, which in my opinion, are more extensive than those of any other State Department. These extend from the partial processing of timber products to the training of technicians and other people for the forestry industry. Its function also extends from control of nature reserves in forestry areas to the combating of drift sand. Then the Department also has a variety of other functions which would take up too much time to enumerate. These are all functions which play an essential role in the success of the forestry industry. One of those functions is training. If one examines this it strikes one that the Department of Forestry, perhaps with the assistance of the University of Stellenbosch, where graduates are trained, is virtually the only body which can train people for the forestry industry, i.e. for the State and for the private sector. If one merely looks at what is happening in other branches of the country’s economy and at how people are constantly leaving the Public Service for employment in the private sector, one becomes concerned about whether the Department, which also plays the key role in training, will always be able to have sufficient trained manpower available for this extensive task which it has undertaken. On this occasion I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what the situation is in respect of staff matters in the Department and in the industry.

There is one field, in particular, which I want to emphasize this afternoon, i.e. that of information. I believe that there is still a great deal of room for the private sector in the forestry industry. However, this can only be tackled if the Department of Forestry, like the Department of Agriculture, has sufficient extension officers available to provide guidance for the individual farmers as well. In the first place, these farmers may perhaps not be forestry farmers who make their living from the forestry industry. However, there are numerous farmers in our country who have redundant land where the climatic conditions are favourable for the planting of forests. The position of such land is, however, unsuitable for other agricultural uses. I believe that in future we shall particularly have to focus our attention in this class of farmer and this class of farm for the purpose of supplementing our forestry industry. In several cases these are people who do not have a practical everyday knowledge of the forestry industry. They are people who would only venture to develop in this direction, and to use such redundant land to their own and the country’s best advantage, if they could receive expert guidance from the Department of Forestry. Speaking of this, I believe that such private afforestation, not necessarily afforestation by the forestry farmers, but also by other farmers who have redundant land, can be and will be encouraged to the benefit of the country and of the farmer himself, if provision could be made, by way of loans, for investments in that direction. An investment in the forestry industry is a long-term investment. It is an investment which one would not simply make if one could not easily obtain the available loan capital. The dividend is only drawn after many years. It is therefore not a short-term investment. Therefore I believe that, in addition to all its other functions, this Department should take another function upon itself, i.e. to supply an additional service to the forestry industry in South Africa and our country’s economy in general. This function will be to investigate the possibility of loan capital for the establishment of forests on such redundant land.

Mr. Chairman, on this, the first occasion on which it is my privilege to deal with this Vote, I want to express my appreciation towards those who had friendly words to say, not only about me, but also about the Department. Hon. members referred to the Department as one which is being served by very dedicated officials. That is correct. It is my privilege to work with these dedicated officials. I want to give hon. members the assurance that in the years which lie ahead I will seek this co-operation with great confidence and will find it. I hope that together we will be able to deal with the situation in regard to forestry in South Africa to the satisfaction of our country as well as to the satisfaction of this House. This morning a remark was made, inter alia, by the hon. member for South Coast, in regard to the annual report produced by the Department. I was equally impressed by it and am as proud of it. It is complete. It is good that we could present it to hon. members in this way. I hope that this good service will improve even further in future. In this connection reference was also made to the wealth of statistics contained in the report. The desire that we should effect further improvements in the statistical service in future was also expressed. We hope it will be possible to do so. There are plans afoot to obtain the co-operation of the private sector as well. In terms of regulations they would be required to produce the necessary information which will enable us to provide hon. members with a much improved and correct picture of the situation as it exists in South Africa. Hon. members will probably find reason next year to derive satisfaction from this and say something about it.

A wide field is covered in the discussion of aspects which are important to the Department and to us all. I do not think hon. members will mind if I begin now to reply to the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. I am doing this not because I want to work my way up from the bottom, but I want to refer to one remark he made, which in my opinion is the fundamental point. That is the magnitude of the industry itself. It is true that I said that the Department of Forestry serves one of the industries which can at present be called one of the largest industries in South Africa. This industry is now one of the giants in our country. The forestry industry began years ago in our country to create in South Africa what other countries had inherited in a natural way and to which they had done nothing. We have to create it in order to meet a need in South Africa. Apart from the correct figures which were mentioned here, and which related to the surface extent, it is a fact that in 1963 the forestry industry was valued at R250 million. To-day the valuation is in the region of R650 million. It is correct that the valuation is on its way to R1,000 million. If we take into consideration the latest developments resulting from the processing of forestry products we can see that forestry products have a tremendous influence on our daily existence. There is such a variety of products which are being manufactured in South Africa out of the products of our own forestry: Our clothing, our cigarettes and our packaging, to mention only a few. To-day the farmers’ containers consist for the most part of processed forestry products. The processing of rayon pulp and allied products all derive from forestry products. If I want to undertake building operations on my farm I need forestry products. In this building in which we are at the moment we are surrounded by forestry products. In other words, the forestry product is being more extensively used. It is also being more extensively used for the utilization of the veld on which it has been planted. Hon. members will realize that if an industry becomes so comprehensive, it makes one important demand on its people. This demand is that the industry must be served and that one must keep ahead as far as its demands are concerned. The hon. member who has just spoken also asked for an adequate number of technical extension officers for farmers. That is correct. It is the intention to meet this demand, for the small farmers in particular cannot be let loose in this very competitive field unless he is given assistance to help himself. For that he needs proper information. What he wants is that we should do the same as was done by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. However, there is as great a need in our Department as there is in that Department. There is as great a need for proper research. Research is being carried out. In fact, we are apparently a leading country in this field as well. We are so far in advance that other countries are sending their research workers to observe what South Africa is doing in this field. Then there is also the particular technical research which has to be carried out into this new direction. We must make people available who, in the field of science, can meet our needs. In its own comprehensive function the Department is continually increasing in size. The Department must also render services to allied Departments. A service which we will have to render South Africa is one we have been discussing all morning. Numerous hon. members have referred to it. It is the question of conservation areas in South Africa. If the Department of Forestry should be called upon to accept, in conjunction with the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, the Department of Bantu Administration and the Department of Water Affairs, this new function, as I envisage under the previous Vote, you can understand that this will be a further greater function which it will have to take upon itself. That is why I appreciate what the hon. member for Stellenbosch said. If we do not make provision for that we will never be able to fend for ourselves. Nor will we be able to keep up with this development which is now getting out of hand in South Africa. I want to inform the hon. member that it was a source of concern to me to learn that the number of students who were studying at the University of Stellenbosch, the only university which offers facilities for advanced studies in forestry, was decreasing. This should not be, but unfortunately is the case. As hon. members are probably well aware, technicians are also being trained by Saasveld. We are carrying out our own specific research. It is not only we who must maintain research services for ourselves; we must also assist in having research carried out by others. The C.S.I.R. is also carrying out other research in regard to timber construction.

Since we are referring to this now I can just deal with this aspect. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) also made a suggestion in this connection. He suggested that we call in the assistance of the Department of Forestry in regard to the provision of houses. There is a considerable amount of research to be done in this connection in South Africa. Our climate is different, the quality of our wood is not necessarily poorer, but is also different and we must build in such a way that it is adjusted to what we have to build with, as well as the requirements of the country in its various climatic regions. We must do it in such a way that we can meet a need. The hon. member asked that we be more practical in our designing of such buildings. All this requires research. It is essential that we keep aibreast in an industry which is now, together with the steel industry, being classed as one of the three or four largest industries in South Africa. In addition the industry is continually increasing in size. I want to repeat therefore that the fact that we do not have the necessary trained people is a source of concern. Consequently we are also obliged to recruit quite a number of trained persons outside South Africa. This is already being done, and these persons are rendering excellent services. I want to make an appeal to all the inhabitants of our country to regard this work as a direction in which our young men could also be trained. They could equip themselves in this direction, since we are competing strongly with many others who also have a need for staff in this field. Not only will the Department, for its part, give encouragement, it will also give financial assistance to students who want to study in this direction.

In addition the hon. member for South Coast raised various matters here with which I want to deal.

†The hon. member for South Coast wanted me to go into the position of overseas financial interests. This is a very important question. He asked for an inquiry into the production and marketing of wattle extract and he has intimated that overseas interests are dictating sales policy to the South African industry. The wattle industry in South Africa is managed through the Wattle Board, which is a statutory body, and is democratically constituted. The board consists of 14 members, seven of whom are growers, and seven of whom are processors. Of the latter only one member may be regarded as representing overseas interests. A similar position exists in the Marketing Committee, which consists of nine members. This committee handles all sales of South African wattle extract. The Marketing Committee consists of representatives from each manufacturing company and three grower members. Each member has an equal vote. The Marketing Committee lays down the policy in regard to prices to be charged and the conditions of sale. Overseas agencies take no action without specific instructions from South Africa. It is therefore impossible for one company, even if it controls 51 per cent of the monetary interest in the industry, to dictate marketing policy. In view of the common interest between the British, the Argentine and the South African industries, there is close collaboration between them, but no one is subservient to the other. As a result of this co-ordination of effort, notable success has been achieved in the price war with other vegetable tanning materials. The South African controlled wattle extract companies, namely the Union Co-operative Bank and Sugar Company, Comec Mimosa Extract Co. and Natal Chemical Syndicate, have their own joint overseas sales organization with its own identity vis-a-vis the selling organization controlled by Forestal. In the interest of international trade relations I deem it unwise to furnish certain information which has a bearing on this matter, but I am prepared to discuss this with the hon. member for South Coast in private. In view of the explanation furnished by me, I hope the hon. member will agree with me that an investigation as suggested by him is not warranted at present.

*Various matters were also raised by the hon. member and other hon. members in regard to the unfair treatment of timber growers. This is of course a very sore point and a matter which can be widely debated from different sides. Because I am acquainted with all the arguments and because I know that this is a matter in regard to which there are very specific and very strong opinions on both sides, I have decided to exercise caution in expressing an opinion in regard to the matter, with the exclusive intention that we will at a later stage be able to meet in debate on this matter, and I would in the meantime like to interest myself in this situation and also feel safer in forming a personal opinion in regard to it then, as the hon. member can understand. In pursuance of the hon. member for South Coast’s argument in regard to the unfair treatment of timber growers, the question arises whether there is in fact a deliberate prejudicing of timber growers by the processing industry, which could be ascribed to a monopolistic state of affairs. I can in fact state that the Government is not unaware of the possibility of monopolistic tendencies, but it is not a foregone conclusion that timber growers are being exploited. To my mind it is really not a foregone conclusion. I would like to convince myself more firmly in this regard. I also want to give the hon. members who have argued this matter all the credit for having, with their arguments, made out a good case. But it is a complicated matter and because I am not myself a timber producer and have only been dealing with this matter for a few months, hon. members can understand that I want to be very careful about expressing an opinion on this matter. I hope to be able soon to put forward a stronger argument in regard to this matter, if I can put it that way. The S.A. Timber Growers’ Association has in fact expressed its objections in this regard to me. We argued this matter for a long time, but although I will give my full support to every attempt to curb monopolistic abuses, the handling of such a matter is the sphere of another Government Department. Without venturing into this sphere it is clear to everybody that any official investigation which may be instituted in this regard will have to prove, firstly, that the prices which the timber growers are receiving for their timber are unfairly low, and here an onus rests on the timber growers themselves, and, secondly that the lower prices are due to monopolistic conditions and not to other economic factors. I understand that the South African Timber Growers’ Association has already held discussions with the Department of Economic Affairs in regard to this matter. The second contributory factor which may enable the processing companies to keep the prices of pulpwood low is the fact that such companies own large plantations, and hon. members argued this point. This may enable them to manipulate the transportation of timber to their factories, particularly during price negotiations with timber growers. May I also state here that I have strong suspicions in this regard. Regarded in conjunction with a monopolistic state of affairs such a mode of conduct would be a flagrant case of exploitation, which would not be tolerated. Since large-scale afforestation by processing industries is now under discussion I want to avail myself of this opportunity in order to make my standpoint clear.

Overseas it is apparently customary that timber processing industries should to a certain extent have their own sources of the requisite raw materials available, and in this connection I am consequently quoting the following from a report by Professor Bruce Sobell, Professor of Forest Genetics, School of Forestry Resources, North Carolina State University. He says the following—

While the foregoing statement may be valid in the U.S.A., where quite a number of factories within a specific area compete with one another for the same raw material, we would not like to see this practice being carried out in South Africa. We believe that the human, aesthetic and financial benefits offered by forestry ought to be distributed among the largest possible group of individual timber growers. There are slightly more than 1,800 small growers, a considerably lesser number who own units in the region of 10,000 and 30,000 acres, and a few that are considerably larger. But the set-up in South Africa differs considerably from that in the U.S.A. We also think that it is in the interests of farming in South Africa that where climatic conditions make this possible and where a farm is situated within economic distance from a timber processing industry, each individual farmer should undertake afforestation himself in order to diversify his farming activities. Last but hot least we also believe that the carrying out of forestry activities by individual farmers in conjunction with other farming activities will result in a better utilization of soil and water as opposed to the major afforestation schemes which processing industries are embarking upon. It has come to my attention that a few of these processing industries have already purchased large tracts of land and have planted these with forests. I have also been informed that farmers are leasing their farms to such companies on a long-term basis and that trees are being planted on these farms from one end to the other. I went to have a personal look at a few of these farms to see what kind of farming activities were being carried out there. Such practices are not always in the interests of the country and are not, in the long run, in the interests of the farmer either. I want to make a serious appeal to farmers not to mortgage or to sell their farms at prices and on conditions which may initially seem very attractive without thorough consideration. I do not know whether such an appeal will be of any use, but we are making it. We must make it. This practice also has a prejudicial effect on other private timber growers who are placed in an unenviable position in regard to the processing companies when it comes to marketing their timber. A third circumstance which could enable processing industries to bargain for low timber prices, would arise from unco-ordinated and unorganized actions on the part of small growers. Farmers are often unable to bargain for fair conditions of sale, and here I would advise the timber growers to organize themselves into co-operative associations which would be able to cope with their affairs far more effectively on a collective basis. But I should like to argue this matter further, so that we could get it absolutely clear in our minds.

The next point which was mentioned here was the representations on the part of various members—in fact, almost all the members mentioned this—on behalf of the small growers, to enable them to earn a livelihood. I want to inform you that in the past the timber growers as a group have never received any form of assistance, and that they can in future lay claim, as a group, to being assisted in some way or other. This will help them, since the product is a long-term product, to make the planting of this product attractive enough for them. It will also help them to afforest unproductive parts of their farms. It will also help them to make a major contribution to South Africa, since we have little land which can still be afforested. But we want to bring in the small units, and I think it is essential that we encourage those small plantation units, but it costs money to do so, and it is capital which lies dormant for a long time, and not everybody is able to do so. And South Africa also has a need for it. South Africa needs it. If we are not going to obtain timber from this source as well in future I do not know in what way we are going to supplement our resources, for, as I see the future situation, our resources are already too slender. That is why I want to agree with hon. members that there is a justified need for assisting them. I also want to say that in my opinion we must think in terms of forest farmers, just as we do in terms of other farmers. They are not different people simply because they plant forests; they are also farmers. Because of their activities they may in fact fall under the Department of Forestry, but they are also farmers. Hon. members will therefore support me when I say that it is essential to go further into the matter, and I also want to support the representations, and for that reason I now want to announce that I have appointed an inter-departmental committee to institute an inquiry into and to report on (a) the need for making low-rate-of-interest loans available to timber growers; (b) if it is found that low-rate-of-interest loans are justified, which (i) sources are at present available for low-rate-of-interest loans to timber growers and if no such sources are available to make proposals in regard to the introduction of such sources with an indication of the administration of the proposed scheme, including procedural prescriptions in regard to applications for loans; (ii) which rates of interest will apply to such loans; and (c) the requirements which ought to be laid down for the qualification for low-rate-of-interest loans, and (d) the conditions, including repayment conditions, which will apply to low-rate-of-interest loans. The Committee will consist of representatives from the Department of Forestry. Agricultural Technical Services, Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, Agricultural Economics and Marketing and Finance. I hope that something good will come of this for our people.

Various other matters were also touched upon, which I want to deal with very rapidly. The matter of a statutory commission for private forestry was raised by various members, I think by the hon. member for Vryheid as well. During the lunch break I informed the hon. member for Vryheid that I did not at the present stage feel qualified to furnish him with an adequate reply in this connection. I think the hon. member must give me an opportunity of investigating the situation even further. At the present moment my reaction is that I think we should rather seek our salvation in our own organization rather than to establish a body which, no matter how well-intentioned, is also operating in other fields, but which may not work out as well in regard to forestry. I am not very enthusiastic about the idea of a control board. That is my own thought on this matter, but I know the Department has other arguments, and other members also have their own opinions on this matter. I should like to express an opinion on this matter on a subsequent occasion. The hon. member for Vryheid also stated that forestry was being carried out on our best land, but I do not think that is correct. The premise of the Department of Forestry is not to purchase only the best land in South Africa and then to plant this with forest. The premise is in fact to plant forests, and we are in fact doing so, particularly in areas which are reasonably inaccessible for other purposes. But preference is being given to food production. At the moment there are large tracts which are already afforested, and which have been this for an historical period, but further purchases of new land by the Government in future will be carefully considered. As far as the private sector is concerned, our standpoint is as I stated it a moment ago. In other words, when we encourage people to undertake afforestation, then we are going to encourage them to afforest marginal lands, i.e. lands which normally yield no production. The private sector will therefore be encouraged to afforest on a small scale in those areas where nothing else can be planted and where afforestation is the most beneficial form of utilizing the soil. I think that is a sensible policy. In the case of afforestation by the private sector in water catchment areas, strict control will of course be exercised. This brings me immediately to the so-called clash between water interests and timber interests. I have on various occasions expressed an opinion on this, but in general I just want to say the following: It is important that we should at all costs protect our water interests; it is also very important that we should in general promote our forestry interests in South Africa, but when we talk about this, then the keyword is “balance”. We must maintain the balance between the two interests. Recently I have convinced myself that the contraventions in the field which are eliciting a reaction from all quarters are not being committed by the Department of Forestry. The Department of Forestry is the Department which has to play the role of caretaker in the mountain catchment areas. The thoughts of the Department in regard to this matter are the same as mine and that of the hon. member. We issued a warning word in respect of irresponsible afforestation in areas where planting forests was not allowed. Hence the fact that I reacted immediately to representations from Natal itself to freeze various areas, but the study of the situation is a very complicated one; it is not so easy. Our first step is going to be to place the control under a central body. Step number two will be to lay down a norm, in consultation with all concerned and then to begin doing the most difficult and the most unpopular thing, i.e. to determine where afforestation should be carried out and where water should be conserved. But if we are conserving water in an area and are not planting forests there, then it does not mean that people will be allowed to graze their animals there and in that way destroy the veld. If we are conserving water in catchment areas, then it is not only conservation against encroachment by forests; it is conservation against any kind of encroachment. The area is then preserved for water purposes, and many of our people misunderstand this. They think that we must chop down the forests and allow the soil to wash away, and also allow them to graze their animals there. Of course, that is as wrong. Conservation areas are absolute conservation areas which we will only throw open to tourists and other people who will not disturb the soil. I think we are all agreed on that. And I have every confidence that the disposition of the Department of Forestry towards this situation is the correct one, and that the two Departments do not differ with one another in this regard. They will still have to settle the formula and details between them, because this is a technical matter; it is a different matter. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that we will probably be able to make much more progress with this matter which I am now discussing during the recess I also want to say that the Department has for a considerable time been negotiating, and I think that they have made a good deal of progress in their attempt to reach general agreement on this important point.

In addition I just want to say a few words about the remarks which have been made here by the hon. member for Nelspruit. The hon. member spoke about the importance of forestry products. He was afraid of monopolies; we of course are also afraid of them. This is a matter which is being watched by the Department of Trade and Industries—not so much by us—but we also have a great interest in preventing the development of monopolies. I just want to give the Committee the assurance that my personal thoughts on the matter are the same as those of the hon. gentleman who spoke here. Then, just a few words in regard to fire prevention committees. When we proceed to have a central authority in order to exercise control over our mountain areas, it will probably at that stage be easier to incorporate fire prevention functions into the Department which will probably be able to deal with it more conscientiously and in a more competent way. I think we have too many authorities looking after our catchment areas. I think it is time we had one authority which could go into the question of fire prevention more effectively. I share the concern expressed by various hon. members in this connection.

The hon. member for Piketberg made a few remarks in regard to drift sand. This is of course a very serious problem. I have always been interested in the drift sand problem. At first I thought that I knew something about it, but now I see that in fact I know nothing about it. It is a very serious problem. It is not only a problem along the West Coast here. We are also beginning to find this problem in the Transvaal and Free State. I have now heard the history of drift sand in South-West Africa, and was able to imagine how this part of the world probably looked 500 to 600 years ago, and what drift sand has accomplished during that time in the Territory. We are engaged in the necessary research. Considerably more work will have to be done in this connection. We are hoping to be able to publish a bulletin shortly which is the result of a consideration of this matter, a bulletin in which we will also be able to furnish information on how to counter the problem of drift sand by means of vegetation. The idea expressed by the hon. member is a very good and sound idea; I agree with him. One must try to counter the problem in a biological way. We shall try to do so in future. I hope the hon. member will find the publication which will appear one of these days useful. I think it will also provide a reasonable reply to his concern in this regard. Sir, the hon. member for Etosha also discussed this matter, and I think that with this I have in fact replied to the points he made here.

The hon. member for South Coast raised the question of the exportation of pulpwood. The hon. member (will recall that a few years ago we exported a quantity of pulpwood, conifer wood, to Italy. The negotiations which were then entered upon ended in a fiasco because when we were well under way with the delivery and were building up a market, we found that we needed the wood ourselves here in South Africa. It is a very difficult thing to try to regulate a market locally as far as (wood is concerned. It is not so easy to regulate the market as it is in the case of mealies or other products. It is a gradual kind of increase because wood grows slowly, and what makes the problem difficult in the case of wood, is the fact that the increase in the demand for wood comes in phases. If one factory is established which manufactures pulp wood then it takes a large percentage of the total available quantities and immediately converts a surplus into a shortage. It is very difficult under such circumstances, where there is no fine adjustment, to deal with such a situation. It does not seem to me that that offers a solution. I think that as far as wood in South Africa is concerned we must keep our supplies here, and for that reason I also agree with the hon. member. I am as concerned as he is. Nor do I like the fact that the impression is being created in South Africa that there is a shortage of wood, and in the meantime pulp is being imported to keep the factories going. I agree with him that that is the wrong thing to do. But we shall go into this matter at a later stage, and I hope that when we meet again I may perhaps be able to discuss this matter with the hon. member with more authority.

Sir, I think that with this I have replied to all the hon. members’ contributions.

Will the hon. the Minister, before he sits down, deal with the question of statistics, or will he write to me about it?

I have already replied to that.

He was not here.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 48,:—Information, R5,000,000:

Mr. Chairman, unfortunately we have very little time in which to deal with this important Vote, but that is neither the hon. the Minister’s fault nor mine, and we shall therefore have to make the best of the short time at our disposal.

The Department of Information was kind enough to provide several of our members with a complete set of the latest publications of the department, and I must say that the publications we received make a very good impression and give a very good overall picture of life in South Africa. I notice from reports that the Department also achieved a good deal of success abroad with films in the past year, and I want to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate them on this. Sir, it strikes me, when going through the publications, that, taken as a whole, the publications now place less emphasis on the political picture in South Africa. I think that is a good thing. I think that under the circumstances it is better to steer clear of the political side of things as far as possible. It struck me that, for example, in the case of the Mexican publication Auge, which recently published a big special edition on South Africa—it is in actual fact the Mexican Life—the political side of South Africa was avoided completely. It seems to me as if we shall achieve more success if we accentuate the general things about South Africa rather than the political.

What do you mean by the “political side”?

The ideological side. That is what was accentuated in the past and I do not think it brought us very far. Sir, I have one serious criticism of official publications and that is the increasing use which is being made in these publications of the terms “State policy” and “policy of the country”. My reason for saying this is the following: In countries, especially the leftist countries, where you have only one official political party, party and State are the same thing and they talk about State policy and the policy of the country, and any person who is against State policy is against the State. But in democratic countries this terminology is not used, because in democratic countries Government and Opposition both form part of the State; they both form part of the machinery of government, of the Parliamentary machine, and consequently people in democratic countries speak of Government policy and Opposition policy, or of “official policy” when referring to Government policy. You will find that these terms are used in all democratic countries. In America they speak of “the policy of the Administration” and of “minority leaders” and “majority leaders”, or of the “minority view” and the “majority view”.

If you speak about “the policy of the country”, as in the leftist countries, it contains the implication that the person who is against the policy is against the country, and this does in fact apply in a one-party State, such as in the leftist and rightist countries; it is chiefly a leftist term, and my point is that it is wrong to use leftist, one-party State terminology in the case of South Africa. The Department of Information must not complain if people in democratic countries regard the use of these terms in a bad light and if their suspicion is aroused if they come across leftist terminology in publications of a democratic country such as South Africa. I hope that the hon. the Minister, as a new Minister in this portfolio, will see to it that undemocratic terminology is avoided in official publications of the country.

I notice, Sir, that where political policy is set out, it is done in the best possible light, and that is good. But, because it is our task to address criticism and warnings to the Government, I also want to say that the policy is sometimes presented in too utopian a fashion, with the result that we get a sort of reaction among people who come into contact with reality. Recently, for example, I had an interview with two visitors, guests of the Information Service in South Africa. They were distinguished guests. I asked them about their impressions of what they had seen and experienced in South Africa. Both of them told me that it had been their first visit to South Africa. They had made a very thorough study overseas of our official publications in connection with policies followed in South Africa. These had impressed them. They thought that their goodwill, which was based on that study, was responsible for the fact that they were invited here. But they were also very disappointed, when they came here, to see that there was a “glaring difference” between the theory, as they had read it in the official publications, and the reality here. This applied especially in respect of petty apartheid measures, which they found repulsive. They left here with a less favourable impression, because there had been a reaction on their part. These may be exceptions. I have also come across cases in which the reverse was true. Consequently I do not want to generalize, but I think the Department must take care not to stray too far from reality when trying to present an image of the political policy of the Government in official publications, because it can cause reactions when people come into contact with reality.

I want to mention another example. Last year two Dutch journalists visited this country. I looked up the report which they prepared. They wrote a long article in the Dutch Life namely Avenue, in which they stated that they had put certain awkward questions to certain officials of the Information Service. These officials could not answer these questions, and so they said: “We shall take you to a man who has all the answers.” The officials then took them to Deputy Minister Koornhof. [Interjections.] The magazine gives an account of the interview they had with Dr. Koornhof, and of how Dr. Koornhof explained the policy to them in the following terms:

Here we had an utopian representation of the policy. It was represented as the miracle of the twentieth century. What was the effect? These journalists went back and wrote a big article in the publication in the Netherlands, which poked fun at this representation. I do not have the time to go into details now, but I just wanted to quote a practical example in order to show that one will not succeed by presenting your case in too utopian a fashion. It is necessary to come closer to reality.

In November last year the hon. the Minister, shortly after he had become Minister of Information, made a speech at Elsburg about the work of the Department of Information. I have his official speech here, and this is what he said on that occasion (translation)—

I underline these words, and again we have the term “state policy”, which means nothing but Government policy. This must now be explained to every individual in the country. He continued as follows:

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, before coming to the hon. member for Bezuidenhout, I should like to congratulate the Minister, who is taking charge of this debate as Minister for the first time this year, on having been assigned this very important portfolio, and on this portfolio now having been elevated to the first in importance of those which he holds. This is a proof of the importance of this Department in the eyes of the Government. We are very pleased that this Minister is occupying this position. We know him as one who is eminently suited for this task. He is also very dedicated, and we believe that he will carry out the work of this Department with great distinction.

When the hon. member for Bezuidenhout holds something up as an example of a phenomenon which he wants to identify, he is in the habit, as he showed only the other day, of making all sorts of covert references in order to present it in the most unfavourable light. To-day, again, he spoke about the “undemocratic terminology” which was being used. It is a fact that he did not go too far, but he is continually suggesting to the outside world that the hostile climate towards South Africa is in fact justified. In actual fact he is only using the charge of undemocratic action on the part of the Government to express his propaganda in a subtle way. He referred to publications being far removed from reality. In this way he wants to confirm the impression, which is also given overseas, that the publications and the information of the Department of Information cannot be trusted, because they are too far removed from reality and too utopian. I do not know whether the hon. member for Bezuidenhout choses his words deliberately for this purpose, but the impression left by his words is a very unfortunate one. It is not the approach which one expects from someone who wants to be factual in this connection, and who has no other propagandistic objective than the factual discussion of these matters. I also saw some of these publications and I did not gain the same impression at all as the hon. member for Bezuidenhout wants to give.

I think that the publications were presented with excellent taste and fine judgment. Even a South African will gain the impression that it is good publicity. We have a good country to advertise. Why should we not advertise it tastefully in standard publicity terms? What is wrong with that? I am quite sure that many of the publications which I have seen will contribute a great deal towards removing the false impressions which were deliberately created against South Africa over the years. But I am not so optimistic about this that I think we shall be able to remove in a jiffy by means of a few publications the entire hold which these false impressions have gained over the years. I am sure that these publications are instalments which will yield good results, and I shall be very glad if the Department continues to maintain the standard of these publications. I do not think there is any reason for us to pay serious attention to what the hon. member for Bezuidenhout said to the effect that the publications are too far removed from reality.

I said that I was not so optimistic as to believe that we shall be able to remove within a jiffy this prejudice which has been built up against South Africa over the years. Let us be quite realistic about this. In the course of 15 and more years a stream of propaganda which gave a completely false impression was let loose in the world against South Africa. Almost an entire generation has been exposed to it. To-day this propaganda has found its way into permanent publications such as books, into films, etc., and this is what we have to fight against now. It is a fact that the greatest immediate threat to us is probably to be found in the English-language world. It is also a fact that especially in Britain and the U.S.A more favourable conditions now exist in which we can put our case. As far as Britain is concerned, the effectiveness of the “Anti-Apartheid Movement” has been reduced a great deal in recent times. The position is no longer the same as a few years ago when, as somebody put it, they “could rent a riot against South Africa”. The climate is no longer the same as it was before, and that is why I think the time is now opportune to intensify the information programme there.

We have to do with a large volume of prejudice. I have here with me The Spectator of 7th February, 1969. The Spectator is a publication of the Conservative Party of Britain, and I just want to read something from this issue in order to show how deep these things have penetrated. An article under the heading “Political Commentary” read, inter alia, as follows—

I then skip a small passage in the article. Then it continues—

Hon. members must listen carefully now—

The hon. member for Kensington is sitting here. He understands English much better than I do. I wonder what these words “they would have no compunction in shooting up the white Rhodesians (largely on … linguistic grounds …)” can mean other than what is stated here. After all, it cannot be because the people in Rhodesia speak English. It can only be because the white Rhodesians are identified with the Afrikaners here that the British army now says that they “would have no compunction in shooting up the white Rhodesians”. [Interjections.] If that is not the reason, I should very much like to know whether the reason is perhaps that a Bantu language or English is spoken in Rhodesia.

This is merely a symptom of the deep-rooted prejudice against the white community of Southern Africa that has been established over the past 10 years. That is why we should not be pessimistic if our information programme does not yield positive results in a short space of time. We must not simply say that it is ineffective, because we must be prepared to wait for results. We are dealing with something in the nature of an investment.

Mr. Chairman. I referred earlier on to the speech which the hon. the Minister made at Elsburg and in which he said that the distribution of political publications to every individual in the country would now also become a function of the Information Service. I do not think the words I quoted are open to a great deal of misunderstanding. However, it is my duty to tell the hon. the Minister that we are very strongly opposed to this attitude. We are opposed to it for two reasons. In the first instance, the Minister’s Department has an enormous task in the outside world. The hon. member who has just sat down, also placed the emphasis on this task. I do not think that the Department, with the funds at its disposal, can deal with half of the work which has to be done in the outside world. It is nobody’s fault, because there are limits to the amount of funds which can be made available to any Department. In the face of the enormous task awaiting us overseas, I think it would be quite wrong if the Department drew off funds for the purpose of distributing political propaganda within the country itself. If the Minister wants to do that, it goes without saying that we shall have to reconsider out attitude in regard to the funds which are made available to the Department. We regard the attitude of the Minister in this connection in a serious light.

I now come to my second reason. According to our system the political policies of the Government party and of the Opposition parties must continually be submitted through the channels of the political parties and the Press to the electorate of the country for consideration and decision. That has to be done by way of a general election at least every five years. I believe that it would be in direct conflict with our entire parliamentary system if the Government were to apply the taxpayers’ money towards using the Department of Information as a medium for making political propaganda within the country itself.

When was that done?

The hon. the Minister can explain the position, but in my opinion there can be no doubt that the Minister’s statement must be interpreted as meaning that he intends to enter upon the sphere of domestic, politics and enlighten every individual in the country about the “policy of the country” as it is interpreted by the Government. I am mentioning this because it will be in directly conflict with our existing system, and it would be a pity if that should happen. I want to make allowances for the fact that the hon. the Minister had then just been appointed as Minister and that he perhaps allowed himself to be carried away by his enthusiasm to some extent. However, I hope that he will give us the assurance this afternoon that the Department of Information will not be abused in this way. I also want to say that our standpoint has always been that the Department of Information has a specific task to perform. No one can blame the Department for putting the standpoint of the Government clearly to the outside world.

Within that framework we are prepared to co-operate with the Department, but the Department of Information is the one Department in the country which ought to have the support and the sympathy of the entire nation and both our political parties. As far as domestic politics are concerned, the Department ought to stand aloof and be impartial. I hope that the hon. the Minister will make the position clear and put it right, but the way I read his statement it is not the way in which the Department can expect to obtain the goodwill and the co-operation of this side if it is going to take that course. If the Department is going to be used as a medium for the internal dissemination of political propaganda then the hon. the Minister will realize that the Opposition will have no choice but to adopt a hostile attitude towards the Information Service, Surely that cannot do any good neither internally nor externally.

There is a further criticism which I want to raise. The Department regularly makes available to the Press official ministerial statements and speeches which are made at official functions. There can be no objection to this. In February I put a question, which appeared on the Question Paper, to the Minister and he then gave me the following assurance: “The Department of Information does not handle speeches for unofficial purposes.” However, I should like the Minister to explain to us how it happens that political speeches before organizations such as the Rapportryers are regarded as official. I want to say that I have no objection at all to the Rapportryers organization, neither to the Rapportryers as such. However, it is generally known that it is a supporting organization of the National Party.

Where do you get that from?

The hon. the Prime Minister used the term “supporting organization”. Hon. members should not ask where I get that from, because I check my facts before using them. Only members of the National Party can become members of the Rapportryers.

That is not true.

There is nothing wrong with that. I am not concerned about the Rapportryers here. People are al their most innocent when they are eating, but when Ministers appear there they are appearing at a political function and not at an official function. I think it is improper that the taxpayers’ money should be used to distribute speeches made by Ministers at unofficial functions, at the expense of the taxpayers. I want to give the hon. the Minister an example. I have here a copy of a speech made by Deputy Minister Froneman. He made this speech before the Rapportryers in Cape Town. Was this an official function? Among other things, he said the following (translation)—

He continues in this vein, in his usual abusive way, and he calls the United Party supporters integrationists. It was a political speech, and as a politician he was entitled to have his political say, but nobody must tell me that this was an official function and that it is the task of the Department to make available to the Press political speeches made at political functions. This is the only point I am trying to make here. In view of the enormous task which this Department has abroad, and I have already mentioned the point that it ought not to venture into the field of domestic politics, I hope that the hon. the Minister will give us a satisfactory assurance that only speeches of an official nature which are made at official functions by Ministers ought to qualify for distribution by the Department of Information.

I now come to the question of publications. I paid a compliment to the Department right at the beginning of my speech. I think its publications are creating a very good image. I only said that in the field of politics care should be taken not to go too far in the direction of creating a utopian image which may lead to a reaction on the part of visitors. I particularly like the booklet The S.A. Quiz. I take it this is the new Quiz. Here again one comes across certain things. For example, 2j pages are devoted to apartheid. It is well put, but perhaps a little too idealistically. Among other things, there appears in it one point which one would not exactly expect in a booklet such as this. I am referring to the portion which reads as follows—

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bezuidenhout once again objected, just as he did last year, to the use of the term “State policy” or “national policy”. I do not know to what aspect of the policy the hon. member has objections. I just want to raise the point that the policy of separate development is, as far as I know, both State policy and national policy. It is not only the National Party which supports it. To my knowledge the United Party is also in favour of separate development. After all, the opposite of separate development is integrated development. If the Department of Information refers abroad to the policy of separate development as being State policy, the U.P. must either accept this or, alternatively, admit that they are following the road of integration and should be regarded as an integrationist party.

That is rubbish.

This is not rubbish. I should like to deal with a point that was also raised by the hon. member for Bezuidenhout. The hon. member reacted to a speech made by the hon. the Minister in which he had said that the policy had to be brought home to individuals domestically. The hon. member described this as domestic political propaganda. In my opinion there is no need whatsoever to regard the work done by the Department of Information at home as amounting to political propaganda. There is a great difference between a case where the work done by any person promotes a political party as such, and where the Department publicizes legislation which has already been passed and interprets the implementation of that legislation correctly. If that is the case political propaganda is not involved. In my opinion it is in fact the task and the function of the Department of Information, domestically as well, to acquaint, where necessary, the public of South Africa with the accepted policy, as it appears on the Statute Book and is being implemented from day to day. This does not amount to an abuse of the task of the Department of Information. I would go as far as to plead for that aspect of the task of the Department of Information to be expanded. I have various cases in mind. Last year we had the case of Limehill. For months reports appeared in the Press about inhuman acts which had allegedly been committed at Limehill. We also had the phenomenon that, subsequent to a debate on this matter having taken place in the House of Assembly and official replies having been furnished, there was an immediate silence about it. Nothing further was said about it. The reason for this was that the propaganda that was made against the implementation of policy was unfounded. I consider the Department of Information to be the public relations division or publicity division of the Government of the country, including the Opposition, in the performance of its task. I should like to plead that the Department of Information should expand its domestic activities considerably, because that Department is rendering a specialized service. Every Department cannot be expected to have its own public relations officer. However, the Department of Information may serve as public relations officer for all Government Departments, because its task is a specialized one. The Department of Information knows how to acquaint the public of South Africa with the implementation of policy in a just and proper manner. There are also other cases where, if the Department of Information had come forward with the true facts in good time, much grief would have been avoided. The case I have in mind here is that of the difference in the salaries paid to non-White and white doctors. A publicity campaign about this matter was launched for months. Many Departments showed no reaction. Here, in my opinion, the services of the Department of Information could have been enlisted, because the furnishing of that news was in the interests of the good relations in this country; not to state the policy of the National Party, but to state the facts in regard to the implementation of the Act. I therefore want to plead that more attention should be given to these matters in the future.

There is another aspect I should also like to mention. I should like to express my gratitude for the fact that under the previous Minister it was decided last year to grant the staff of the Department of Information better home leave arrangements. I think it is absolutely essential that officials of the Department of Information who are serving abroad should be able to come back to South Africa not only every four years, but every three years, to acquaint themselves again with the developments that have been taking place here. In this way they will indeed be better equipped to put across the image of South Africa in its entirety in the outside world. I also want to mention that it has often happened in the past that, after trained and even senior men of the Department of Information had returned from abroad, they left the service within a comparatively short period. This happens as a result of the very keen competition in this country for obtaining the services of specialized persons. I am grateful for the Government’s decision this year to grant better conditions of service to, inter alia, members of the Department of Information as well. As a result of the housing benefits they are now able to receive, there is, according to my information, greater satisfaction. Persons who return from abroad must adapt themselves again to the conditions here. Whereas they had more funds at their disposal abroad for the performance of their task, and here in South Africa have to adapt themselves to a salary scale which entails changed circumstances, it is desirable that the services of those people, especially those who have gained specialized knowledge abroad, should be retained in South Africa. I am grateful for the task that has in fact been performed. I also want to extend my congratulations to the hon. the Minister. I am convinced that he will make a great success of this Department, which is actually one of the most important Departments of the Government.

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to repeat the arguments about the terms “State policy” and “policy of the country”. I just want to tell the hon. member that in a country with more than one political party, there is no such thing as “policy of the country”. The implication would then be that criticism of that policy was criticism of the country. This only applies in a dictatorial state, a state where there is only one official party. I want to repeat that this is terminology that is used in the leftist countries. It does us no good if these terms are read abroad in publications issued by us.

As regards the hon. member’s argument that the Department should propagate the policy, I want to say that I disagree with him entirely. Parliament sits here for six months; here policy is announced; here speeches are reported fully to the people outside. This is done by means of the Press and the radio. We have our entire party-political system under which the leaders of both sides go out and inform the people. This is the way in which things are done in a democratic country. But it will be for the Department and the hon. the Minister to choose whether they want the full support of all, or whether they want to go their own way alone.

I was interested to see the annual report of the Department of Information. I am glad that it was made available to us in good time on this occasion. I should like to quote a statement that is made on page 5 under the heading “Interior Division”. It reads as follows—

I should like to have an explanation of the last part of this statement. It seems to me as though this kind of indirect contact between the population groups and the Government should never take the place of direct contact. I should like to hear how the Department sees its task in this connection, and how the Government is advised of the ideas of the non-white population groups?

What do you mean by “direct contact”?

There are various ways in which one could have direct contact. In the case where the Prime Minister or another Minister sits in the Coloured Council and discusses matters with them directly, it is certainly direct contact. The Coloured representatives in this House also form a medium of direct contact. But whatever the standpoint is, there should be direct contact even under the Government’s policy as it stands.

There is more contact now than ever before.

But why is the impression created here that the Information Service is the channel for contact?

It is further direct contact.

Very well. I just asked the question so that the hon. the Minister could inform us on that point. I see that the Department of Information now has 15 representatives abroad. But so far not one of them is in an African state. I was just wondering whether the hon. the Minister had not yet reached the stage where he, in view of the outward policy and the need we have to improve our position in Africa, has been thinking in the direction of having more representation in African countries? This would be to our mutual benefit. I think this is of cardinal importance.

I see that the circulation of South African Digest stands at 89,000 at the moment. In my opinion this is a good publication. But I wonder whether the hon. the Minister will not consider something which I think is better? One of the best information publications I have ever come across is the German Tribune. This publication has the special advantage that all its reports are excerpts from the Press of the country concerned. Articles from the Press are quoted in it. Consequently this is not regarded in the outside world as a Government publication, but as a representation given by the Press, which is naturally selected by the foreign information service. But it is read as being an independent publication which does not create the impression of being government propaganda. It seems to me as though this is a better way of sending out propaganda than directly through a government channel.

Then I want to conclude with the following, so that other members can also take part. I have been wondering whether the Department would not have done better if it had also given a short summary of the standpoints of the other two Parliamentary parties in South African Quiz, because the Department gave a brief summary here of the position of the parties in the House, and after that a long explanation of the apartheid policy of the Government. For the sake of completeness this publication should also give a brief summary of the standpoints of the other two Parliamentary parties. South Africans travelling abroad are asked questions about the entire political image of our country. This can very easily be drawn up in consultation with the two parties that are represented in this House.

You will be ashamed if your policy is represented there.

I could say the same of the present Government’s policy. That is no argument. The hon. member must decide whether the Department is there to give a complete image of South Africa or to give half an image. If the Department says it wants to give a complete image, it must give a correct image of the political position as it exists in South Africa. There is not only one party with one policy. This is a small point of criticism, and I have raised it before. We should like our publications to present a full and complete image of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, in pursuance of what the hon. member for Bezuidenhout has said by way of criticism, I want to say that the policy of this Government has been endorsed at every election and that this policy has for all practical purposes now become Government policy and the policy of the country. I simply cannot see why the hon. member should criticize the fact that this policy is expounded in the official publications of this Department. Before dealing with the hon. member’s statement that the publication should cater for more matters of general interest than merely matters of ideological interest, I want to say that I recently had the opportunity of coming into contact with many of our information officers abroad. I want to say here to-day that I was particularly impressed by every one of them. They are doing excellent work, and they are performing a major task. They display a great deal of initiative, often with very limited means at their disposal. At the end of my tour I came to the conclusion that the task of the Government will pre-eminently be one of information in the outside world in the near future. I do not doubt that at all. The foundation of our traditional policy has been laid. Now the Department will have to disseminate information, and it will have to take it upon itself to make this policy and what the Government is doing in South Africa known in wider circles. As I see it, it is also the task of the Department to expound the message of the policy of the Government in as unadulterated, powerful, attractive and rapid a way as possible. I see nothing wrong with that and I cannot understand the criticism of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout either, i.e. that the Department of Information should not do this. I now want to read to the hon. member what the official policy is of the American Information Department, which is the counterpart of our Department. I have here the report of an interview Mr. Leonard Marks, Director of the U.S. Information Agency at that time, had with the well-known American magazine, U.S. News and World Report in 1967. Mr. Marks said the following—

I should like to underline the word “domestic”—

Then he said elsewhere in the report—

This is precisely what our Department of Information is doing. It presents to the world the opinion of the Government, no matter what Government is in power. If the misfortune should ever befall us that the United Party should come into power, it would be the task of the Department to present the policy of that Government as well. [Interjections.] But what is wrong with it if this is being done now, particularly since the United States Information Agency is doing so, too? In my opinion the criticism of the hon. member therefore does not hold water at all.

I also want to say that I am very glad that the Government has seen its way clear to increase the Estimates of the Department of Information this year with as much as R841,000. In my opinion this is still not enough money in view of the enormous task this Department has to perform, not only abroad but in our own country as well. I do not want to plead here for an increase in the Estimates, but I just want to bring it to the attention of the Minister that he should do everything in his power to get the Government to vote an amount of more than R5 million for this most important Department in future.

But half of that increase goes for stamps.

These information officials I have met abroad are working very hard and we have seen how fruitful the work of these people has been. If one looks at page 2 of the latest annual report of the Department, one will see that it is becoming increasingly clear that the U.N.’s special committee on apartheid is becoming afraid and panic-stricken of the excellent results achieved by the information officers of this Department, especially in America. I do not want to quote anything in this connection now, because my time is limited, but I want to plead specifically that more information officers be appointed in one country particularly, i.e. in the U.S.A. In my opinion the U.S.A, is the most influential country in the Western world to-day, and our case will simply have to be put on a much larger scale there. But in my opinion we definitely do not have enough information officers in that country and when I say this, I am putting it very mildly. One only has to travel from coast to coast in America to realize how vast the American Continent is, and in this country our information service has only four information officers. In fact, there are only three information officers, not counting the information office at the U.N., because they are performing a very special task there; they do not really disseminate information about our country on a very large scale outside the U.N. The other three officers are in New York, Washington and San Francisco, and in Washington the information officers are performing a special task too. They concentrate mainly on the capital and on the American Congress. We must therefore carry out our task there as regards the dissemination of information, a task that is, in fact, being carried out from only two offices which have to cover the whole of the vast American continent. I want to mention an example. The office in New York, for example, has to work on no fewer than 26 states from Maine to the Dakota’s and from Michigan in the centre of America to Kentucky in the south; this is a vast area. From San Francisco no fewer than 13 states have to be catered for and this even includes the distant Hawaii. You can see therefore, Sir, that it is absolutely essential that our representation in America should be extended. The impression J have formed there, as was also said under the Foreign Affairs Vote, is that the American people are beginning to understand our policy better, and I feel that if we could use more information staff we would be able to reach the Americans on a much larger scale. The time is now ripe to do so.

One of the reasons why countries such as the United States are far more prepared to-day to listen to the Government’s policy and its message is because many Americans are now beginning to see their race problems on the same level and in the same light as those of South Africa. In support of this I want to quote from a television programme which was transmitted in New York and in which the former South African Bantu female singer, Miriam Makeba, and her extremistic Negro husband, Stokeley Carmichael, took part. The programme was transmitted on 5th April, 1969, and the programme leader asked Miriam Makeba, inter alia-. “How would you compare the situation that the Blackman faces in this country (the U.S.A.) to that in your native land, South Africa?” Makeba replied—

So one can see that the Americans are now facing the same problem as we have in South Africa, i.e. this distortion of their domestic policy.

In conclusion I also want to ask whether the hon. the Minister could not consider the advisability of mobile information officers, a kind of roving information official, whom one can send to a particular part of the world where we have no representatives and where there may be an opportunity of making efficient use of an important situation which may give us publicity.

The hon. member for Turffontein told us about the tremendously difficult task that our two offices in the United States have to try to sell South Africa over there. Of course we on this side of the House can understand why this task is so desperately difficult under a Nationalist Government. We know what the answer is. The answer is a United Party Government. The hon. member also welcomed the fact that there was an increase in the amount budgeted under this Vote, an increase of nearly R800,000. We welcome it too, but I wonder whether he noticed that R35O,000 of that increase is lost in payments to the Post Office? The hon. member for Turffontein and the hon. member for Umhlatuzana both raised again this whole story about “volksbeleid” and “landsbeleid”. Sir, it is no good playing with words. When a thing becomes “landsbeleid”, when it becomes the policy of the country, it then becomes treasonable to criticize it, especially where you have a two-party system. This is the difference, namely that we have two or more parties in this country, and as long as that is the position, it is not correct for any party to claim that its policy is “landsbeleid”, especially when you have the position which we had during the last general election, of 45 per cent of the voters voting against that policy. That is the percentage of the voters, and how many of the people who do not have the vote are opposed to that policy?

But I want to get away from, that and I want to welcome the hon. the Minister to his Post as Minister of Information. This is the first time we have had an opportunity to discuss this Vote with him. I wish him luck. He has a tremendous job and I hope that he and his most efficient officials will be able to do something for the benefit of South Africa. I also want to congratulate him and his Department on the fact that he is one of only two Ministers who presented to us their reports before their Vote was discussed. But we have a rather peculiar happening on page 13 of this report, where we have quoted a person who has been banned. It reads that the Department placed a number of advertisements in a well-known American daily, the Wall Street Journal, and included was one on security. The heading is “More Vital to the West than the Golden Reef”, and it reads as follows—

Sir, here we have a deliberate quotation of a person who has been banned. There has been a slip somewhere. I would be glad to hear from the Minister his explanation of what has happened in this case.

As I say, this is a very excellent report we have had from the Department. We find on page 8 an article on publications aimed at abroad, where apart from those which regularly come out there were certain pamphlets, and I want to congratulate the Department on these pamphlets, “South Africa in Fact”, “South Africa: Export Country”, and “South Africa: Land for Investment”. It is only recently that we were able to get copies, but I must congratulate them on those. On page 20 of the report we have an interesting reference to television, where recognition is given to the value of television in the propagation of information. That is what this side of the House has been saying for so many years. I wonder whether the Minister and his Department can perhaps bring some influence to bear on his colleagues and let us see whether we cannot get television in this country, because when you go through this report and you see the amount of trouble that is gone to in order to influence the non-white people in South Africa, please let us think of what a power television would be in this task the Minister and his Department have to perform.

We now come to page 15 of the report, referring to publications aimed at the interior, and there is reference to baNtu, the illustrated monthly magazine issued by the Department in both English and Afrikaans. This is the beginning of what I really want to say to the Minister to-day, namely that I think he must see that publications and films and things like that must be factually correct, especially in regard to things which are aimed at the Bantu, because you are dealing here with the most critical audience in the world, particularly when it comes to something which they can see. They are generally illiterate and cannot read or write, but they are the most observant people in the world. They will pick up a detail, such as was pointed out by the hon. member for Durban (Point) the other day. The publication baNtu published a duplicate of a photograph which appeared in the publication Bantu Education, with a different caption, showing that these came from two different schools in two different parts of the country. This sort of thing should not happen. I hope the Minister will take note and be careful to be factually correct in every instance.

On page 33 reference is made to the non-white population groups again, and one paragraph reads—

Here again, when it comes to personal liaison, I hope the Minister will find people who are fully bilingual in the sense that they are capable of properly speaking the language of the people with whom they are dealing. At the foot of that page it says—

I had the privilege earlier this week to be invited by the hon. the Minister to see a series of films, here in Cape Town, put out by his department. The first two were, according to the programme, for use during lectures overseas. They were aimed at the overseas public, and let me say that I think they put across a reasonably fair presentation of affairs in South Africa, and with their object of giving information and selling South Africa, perhaps they can pass; but when we come to the second two, the film “Uit eie Krag” and “Leboa Homelands”, according to this programme they were for Bantu information in the Bantu’s own language. Here again I want to criticize the factualness of this, the correctness of this. When the commentator was saying that “we are now on a train journey through the Ciskei”, and showed a shot of this train, it was on a double railway line. Sir, there are no double railway lines in the Ciskei. They say: “These white people are just leading us astray; do they think that we are children and that we cannot understand?” Similarly, while talking about the Ciskei, they showed a shot of the Umzimvubu bridge. Sir, these people see these things and they know. I hope that the commentary that we heard is not the commentary which will be put across to the Bantu people because this person could not even pronounce the Xhosa names correctly. He started talking about Mr. nKumalo and Mr. Gumede. He spoke of places like Ngobo. Sir, this is wrong when it is aimed at the Bantu people. The person who does the commentary must be fully conversant with the language. [Interjections.] I am being critical, but I hope I am being constructive, I am not being destructive.

The last two films were two in the Ditaba series, and the one particularly dealt with the establishment of the Mashomangashoni Regional Authority in Zululand. That was very good up to a point. I was very impressed with that film—with the shot of the Commissioner-General, of the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner, of the chairman of the Regional Authority. All those are very good but the whole film was spoilt at the end with a short show of mngoma dancing, which the hon. the Deputy Minister saw, of men and women mixed. Sir, this does not happen in Zululand and I am prepared to say now that it was shot in the Valley of a Thousand Hills at the community which is kept there for the benefit of tourists from overseas. This is not genuine. Sir, this is the sort of thing that the Bantu people will pick out. This is why I am speaking to the hon. the Minister this afternoon in seriousness, and I hope that he will take my criticism as constructive criticism, as it is meant to be, and not destructive criticism. More power to him and his department.

I should like to associate myself with the previous speakers who congratulated the hon. the Minister on his appointment to this position. I am quite convinced that he will make a great success of it. Even at this early stage one can see from the results which were achieved during the past few months that the hon. the Minister knows what he wants to do and in which direction he wants to move. I also want to congratulate the Department, from the Secretary down to the most junior staff member, on what they are doing in this Department. I agree with the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) —something I cannot do very often—in what he said about this fine report which we received before the commencement of the debate. We not only received the report before the commencement of the debate, but it also deals with the year ending 31st March, which is only a short while ago. This is really an achievement. It is an achievement particularly when one considers—as one can read in this report—that as regards Information the Department had a staff shortage of 27 out of the 133 posts, and that the 106 officials had an average term of service of only three years and two months each. These officials acquitted themselves well of a very difficult task in spite of the fact that they had not been in the service for long. Sir, I can understand why the United Party is so concerned about the image of South Africa the Department of Information is presenting to the outside world. They confuse the image which is presented to the outside world with party political propaganda, but this is not so, and this I want to try and prove to them. Sir, the hon. member for Bezuidenhout said we should leave politicking to the newspapers. I want to tell him what has happened in my own constituency, and this is what comes of it when one relies only on the newspapers. A certain person came to South Africa for the first time after the last World War; he was an English-speaking person and, as one may well appreciate, he could only read English newspapers. In 1948, when this Government came into power, he could draw the conclusion from what he understood and read in the English newspapers that there was no future for him as an English-speaking person in South Africa and that it would be better for him to leave the country, because if he did not do so, he would virtually be chased into the sea by this Government. After wise consideration he decided to stay on in this country and he continued to read the same newspapers because they were printed in the language he could understand. Shortly afterwards elections were held again and then the referendum was held in 1960 and the same person resorted to this same newspaper in which he had read all these prophecies of doom, for example, that it was the end of South Africa and that bankruptcy would necessarily follow on what happened in October 1960. Mr. Chairman, I visited this person in 1965, and he told me that that English newspaper was responsible for the fact that he became a very good Nationalist because the information contained in that newspaper did not tell him what the true state of affairs was and that the facts did not correspond with the picture the newspaper held up to him. That is why I can appreciate that the Opposition is concerned about the facts which are now being presented to the public of South Africa. Sir, the truth follows the lie and will always catch up with it and this is what is happening here now. I am convinced that 90 per cent and more of the white voters of South Africa associate themselves with and support the policy of this Government. We can rightly say that it is national policy. [Interjections.] I want to tell that hon. member that I visited first-class English-speaking friends, former supporters of his Party, in Natal recently. Hon. members of that Party will be surprised to know what is going to happen with them in the next election in Natal.

I also want to deal with another task of the Department of Information. The hon. member for Turffontein asked for more officials to be appointed. Sir, more than 200.000 visitors come to South Africa every year and to my mind the Department of Information can use those tourists with advantage as ambassadors for South Africa when they go back to their own countries, if the Department of Information would only furnish them with the necessary documents, the necessary facts—without propaganda—to be able to discuss South Africa with their fellow-citizens in their own countries. What I should like to see, is closer liaison between the Department of Information and the Department of Tourism. To my mind there should be closer ties between these two Departments. When tourists arrive in this country from overseas the Department of Information should furnish them with all the necessary information about South Africa, not only in the constitutional or political spheres, but also as regards the scenic and tourist attractions in South Africa. This information should be furnished to them in the form of a proper publication or various publications so that they can know which places to visit in South Africa. Possibly it may be a good thing if the Department of Information could employ a public relations officer to meet tourists on organized tours from overseas when they arrive and to accompany and assist them and even to accompany them on the tour so that they may get a proper idea of South Africa and also be accompanied by somebody who can take them to places which are really worth visiting. They pay a great deal of money to come to South Africa and they often know only one or two addresses; they visit the Kruger National Park but there are many other attractions they do not see at all simply because the necessary information is not made available to them.

There is another suggestion I should like to make. Every year we devote more than 100 hours to the discussion of the Budget during the Committee Stage and all the public gets is publications which are published piecemeal in the Press about the Budget, but the South African voter is never given an over-all picture; he gets the information piecemeal but he never gets an over-all picture of the Budget. What I should like to see, is that the Department of Information should publish a logical summary of the Budget debate and make it available at various points. I am thinking of post offices and airports as well as other Government offices where this may be made available so that any South African citizen who may be interested, may see how the money is spent and where it comes from. In conclusion I want to tell the hon. member for Transkei that the majority of this Party will increase even further at the next election.

I have here in my possession a copy of Crusade, a publication which is published in London. The leading article in the November 1968 edition appears under the heading “Cape of No Hope”. I want to quote two paragraphs from the leading article in pursuance of the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Bezuidenhout in this House this afternoon—

The leading article reads further—

The above-mentioned quotations come from the leading article which appeared in Crusade, a church journal of which thousands of copies are distributed in Britain. Sir, this is quite familiar language. All of us, particularly hon. members on that side of the House, know where this language comes from; this is the kind of language which besmirches South Africa’s name in the outside world. Sir, an English-speaking lady in my constituency gave me this journal after she had visited England. She told me she was not interested in politics; she said she was only a Christian but she could not allow a lie such as this one to stand in black and white unanswered. We approached the Department of Information with the specific purpose to see how this new section, Data Subdivision, works. Within half a day we had all the answers to the factual misrepresentations which had appeared in this leading article. The result was that this lady, with the facts she obtained from the Department, was able to give a factual reply which was published in the February edition of the journal and which presented South Africa in a very positive light and exposed these untruths. To this somebody in our country, a South African, replied in the same vein as that in which the leading article had been published under the heading “Cape of No Hope”.

With further information which she again obtained from the Data Subdivision, this lady, as far as this controvery was concerned, was as well equipped as any information officer of the Department could hope to be. This brings me to the particular value of this division, the Data Subdivision, about which only one paragraph appears on page 16 of the report. Sir, an enormous amount of factual material—and not ideological material as the hon. member for Bezuidenhout wants to suggest—has already been collected and is available to every South African who wants to act as a voluntary ambassador and information officer for our country in this way.

Sir, the hon. member for Germiston (District) referred to the large number of tourists who visit our country and to whom assistance may be given by the Department. I am now thinking of the great number of South Africans who leave South Africa for tours overseas every year and who come across examples of such untruths all over the world. If these South Africans would use this material which is given to them on a platter and in a processed and factual form by the Department of Information, they could simply inundate these distorted publications, which appear in America, Europe and all over the world, with letters in which people are told the truth about South Africa and so refute these lies. I have noticed and found that South Africans make use of these opportunities to an increasing extent. As the arguments advanced by that hon. member and the reports published in the anti-Nationalist Press in our country are sent out into the outside world, they realize to what extent the image of our country is marred to our own detriment. Whites as well as non-Whites are getting sick and tired of it—to put it plainly. Replies sent in the form of letters to the editor are very effective. As regards the work of the interior division of the Department which has also been belittled and disparaged by the hon. member, I may just mention that this excellent publication, namely Digest of South African Affairs, is made available to many South Africans who are unable to understand Afrikaans yet, for example immigrants.

This publication is also sent to hundreds of overseas visitors. The members of the Barbarians rugby team were treated to lunch in Parliament the other day. Three or four of them told me that they wished they could obtain more information about South Africa to take back with them to England because their visit to our country was only a short one and they could not assess conditions in our country properly. This Department is so efficient that the first copies of the Digest and of Bantu had already been forwarded to their addresses before the team was even back in England. These publications are going to be sent to these people regularly in future and this is the type of factually processed material they want. This is no political ideology. The hon. member for Germiston (District) referred to the foreign division of the Department and mentioned tourists. In 1965 a group of farmers from Illinois in America visited our country. The week before last I received a letter from the organizer of that same group of farmers in which they asked whether they could not pay another visit to the same farms near Pretoria where they had been entertained in the traditional South African manner on their previous visit. They specifically asked that we should again make available to them the same type of reading matter about the various aspects of the South African way of life they had on their previous visit. Surely people will not come back three years later and ask for reading matter about a country of which they received a distorted picture during their first visit. In this connection I also have in mind the excellent work that is being done by an association known as the “Maatskappy vir Europese Immigrasie” as well as the “Duits-Afrikaanse Kultuurunie” which are two of the many organizations working behind the scenes in conjunction with the Department of Information. All of us are “unpaid officials” of the Department of Information as well. As a matter of fact, this Department is the favourite Department of the country by virtue of these very services it renders. Thousands of copies of the publication of the “Maatskappy vir Europese Immigrasie”, namely Nieuws uit Zuid-Afrika, are sent to Europe and other parts of the world and I can just mention that this publication may warrant a subsidy from the Department of Information. The newsletter of the “Duits-Afrikaanse Kultuurunie”, thousands of copies of which are sent to Germany, may also warrant a subsidy from the Department. This is voluntary material and it is this voluntary material which appeals from the heart to the hearts of the Whites, whether in South Africa or in the United States or Europe or wherever it may be. In conclusion, I just want to mention an example of the excellent work that is being done by the foreign division of the Department. Visitors are being brought to South Africa. I have here in my hand a report from the Tucson Daily Citizen which was written by its editor, Paul McKalip. The heading alone is quite significant, namely “While our Indians wait South Africa’s Bantu learn”. Then there follows a factual report of what he has seen here—and of what the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) saw in the cinema the other day in one of the information films he was not even aware of. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, on this the first occasion on which I am in charge of this Vote, I first of all want to express my sincere thanks to everybody who participated in this debate and particularly for the good wishes which were addressed to me personally in connection with the new office I am now occupying. I want to give hon. members the assurance that I greatly appreciate their standpoints and congratulations and that I am grateful for the good wishes which were expressed. I on my part want to give hon. members the assurance that I am setting about this task in real earnest and that I shall devote my best energies to the matter of making a resounding success of this task in the interests of South Africa. Before starting my actual reply, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity, seeing that this is the first occasion on which I am acting in this capacity, to pay tribute to my extremely capable and dedicated predecessor from whom I have taken over this portfolio. Minister De Klerk devoted his energies to this office with great dedication and he laid the foundations on which this Department will continue to build for many years to come, and it gives me great pleasure to-day to pay tribute to him on this occasion for the excellent work done by him up to this stage in the interests of this Department.

In my reply I want to react as follows. In the first place I should like to reply in brief to the criticism and suggestions which came from hon. members who participated in this debate. In conclusion I should like to give a review of the task of this Department, as I see it, and possibly cast a look towards the future in which this Department will operate. I should like to start with the hon. member for Pretoria (District). I want to thank the hon. member for his positive suggestions in connection with the various matters on which he touched here. I want to assure the hon. member that I greatly appreciate his contribution. I may inform the hon. member, as well as the hon. member for Germiston (District), that we make large quantities of folders and brochures available at all our airports to persons entering or leaving the country, from where these brochures may be taken free of charge so that the facts contained in them may be used overseas. This is the method which is being followed at present. Of course, we are very grateful to private bodies, such as those mentioned by the hon. member, that are undertaking this task of their own accord. It is true that the Department of Information ought to be given the support of everyone in South Africa in all respects, because this is the Department that has to propagate South Africa’s image abroad. When we address the outside world, and this is how it ought to be in a state like ours, we ought to speak out of one mouth in the interests of our country. That is why I want to say at once that I welcome the work of the organizations mentioned by the hon. member and that I have high regard for what they are doing.

I think the same argument applies to the remarks made by the hon. member for Germiston (District) in connection with tourists at harbours and airports. Also in this case I want to thank the hon. member for his friendly contribution. We are aware of the fact that the hon. member has this matter near to his heart. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) touched on a few matters to which I should like to give a little more attention. In the first place he referred to the fact that R35O,000 of the increase in the Vote of this Department as such would go to the Post Office. It is true in a certain sense that because of the new dispensation in respect of the Post Office, a larger sum will be paid out to that Department, but this does not detract from the fact that there has nevertheless been an increase of R490,000 in respect of a small budget of just over R4 million. This at least shows in what light we see this matter. The hon. member also criticized the films of the Department. The hon. member asked for the films and the releases of the Department to be factually correct. I want to adopt a positive approach to the criticism and I want to say at once that I welcome positive criticism, because that is the function of the hon. the Opposition. But the hon. member should not express his criticism in such an obvious way which allows one to see through it immediately. The first point of criticism which the hon. member had of the films shown the other night, was that a certain train was travelling in the Ciskei but that a double railway line was shown. But does he not know that that train was travelling over a very long route and that sections of that railway line are in fact double? Not in the Ciskei itself, but en route to the Ciskei.

After the visit to Alice?

I am not sure about that fact.

I think that section was in Natal.

The fact remains, however, that there are double lines in this country and that that train was en route to the Ciskei. Whether that was inserted after the visit to Alice is another matter. We shall go into that. One will have to check the facts in that case.

Then the hon. member criticized the Xhosa pronunciation of the narrator concerned. I just want to point out to the hon. member that when these films are shown to the Bantu themselves, that is not the sound-track which is used. The entire sound-track is in the Bantu language. Every word is in that language. In other words, on that sound-track the narrator is a Bantu person who has a full command of the Bantu language. The sound-track to which the hon. member referred had in fact been added for the benefit of the hon. member and for our benefit, because we do not understand the Bantu language. But when the film is shown to the Bantu themselves, the entire narrative is in the language of the Bantu themselves and the narrator is someone who has a perfect command and pronunciation of that language. As I have said, we shall continue to watch the factual position in this connection. I shall come back to his allegation with regard to the question of party policy and Government policy at a later stage when I reply to the argument of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout.

The hon. member for Turffontein addressed an appeal to me for more officials to be appointed and for the services of more people to be employed in the United States of America. I want to give him the assurance at once that this matter is receiving my serious attention at the moment. We realize what role the United States of America is playing in the world to-day. We also realize only too well that we should rectify our image in that country and give a clear representation of it. We want to pay the highest tribute to the few men we have in that country and praise them for what they are doing. They are men who are performing a great task under difficult circumstances in that they have to operate in an enormous field. At the same time I want to say, however, that we are giving serious consideration to the establishment of more offices and to the appointment of more staff in the United States. This matter is still being investigated.

He raised another matter, and that is the possibility of having mobile information officers. I am afraid that it is not possible to give effect in practice to the suggestion in the form in which it was made by him. In order to have status in a specific country and in order to be able to act effectively, the information officer must be attached to a mission and be properly accredited, otherwise he is not able to do the necessary work in that country. I just want to tell him that the departments do in fact have their own ways of undertaking certain matters. Our publications, for example, are being distributed all over the world at present. I know that a publication called “Care”, which contains information and which was drawn up by us for the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions, was distributed at the International Congress at Helsinki. In other words, we do make use of occasions to distribute publications in this way. I should also like to thank him for his kind words in this connection.

The hon. member for Umhlatuzana addressed a special appeal to me for more attention to be given to the Department locally. I shall come to this before long when I shall give my general review. I want to tell him that I agree with him that locally we also have a special task and that we dare not and may not give our attention to the outside world only. The statement was also made that officials should maintain closer contact with the Department. This is so. We are constantly giving attention to this matter. In due course we do return our officials to South Africa so as to bring them into contact once again with conditions here before we send them back. This is the ideal. One cannot always achieve this ideal fully, but we are endeavouring to realize the ideal in all respects. To this I want to add that I hope that the conditions of service and better salaries which can now be offered after the latest announcements will contribute towards enabling us to retain our experienced officials for longer periods in the service of the Department. Of course, the picture is not so very black. A series of resignations occurred. This one fully understands. But, on the other hand, a whole number of the people who came back from abroad immediately requested to be returned overseas to continue their work in the service of the Department. We shall give attention to the situation and we shall ensure that nothing will go wrong in this connection.

I should also like to thank the hon. member for Innesdal for his congratulations. He addressed a request to me in connection with the intensification of our information work and asked for more staff to be made available for this purpose. I want to say at once that we are keeping this in mind with a view to the future. We do have the situation, however, and this I want to emphasize very strongly, that a better understanding of South Africa is coming into existence in the world. It is against this background, in other words, to make the best possible use of the wave of new, positive interest, and secondly, for neutralizing the destructive actions of our zealous opponents, that it is essential for South Africa to continue with renewed energy to put its case strongly both in this country and in the outside world. This is how we shall deal with the matter and we shall continue on this road, because I think it is in the interests of South Africa to do so.

I now come to the hon. member for Bezuidenhout, who launched the main attack from the Opposition benches. I should like to thank him at once for his congratulations to the Department and the publications, as well as for his favourable criticism of our publications. I want to tell him at once that we appreciate the fact that he adopted such a positive standpoint and agreed with what was being done. However, I should like to deal with a few of the points he raised here; in the first place, the attack of the hon. member on my speech at Elsburg. Now, first of all, I should like to read to the hon. member my exact theme and exactly what I said in that connection. This is what I said. I quote (translation)—

Then I clearly stated and emphasized the following—

I went on to state very clearly—

I should now like to deal more specifically with this matter, as it appeared to be one of the main points of attack on me in this connection.

In the first place, I should like to say that in the various countries of Europe to-day, as well as in America, it is customary for the policy of the specific government of the day to be conveyed in the information documents of those countries. I had the clearest example of this during the presidential election in the United States of America. After the designation of the candidate for the presidency, but prior to his assuming office, we received information publications from the United States which still propagated the attitude of the Johnson administration, which was in conflict with that of the Nixon administration, in spite of the fact that the new president had been designated and only had to assume office officially. We regularly receive information documents from France. In these documents the De Gaulle policy is stated every day in each and every respect. This is as clear as daylight. No other party policy is stated either. The De Gaulle standpoint is stated, because it is that of the government of the day. To me it is as clear as daylight whether or not a state is being governed as a democratic state, that the policy of the governing party during the time it is in power is the policy of the country for the period for which such a party governs. Surely this is so. [Interjections.] I want to state this very clearly. The position is, when the government takes any decision with regard to some aspect of national life, that such a decision affects all people concerned fundamentally. Then it is the essential duty of the Department of Information to convey this to those people.

While I am dealing with this aspect, I just want to tell the hon. member what the task of this Department of Information is. What I am going to tell him is not going to be the opinion I hold as far as this matter is concerned, nor what other people think of this matter. I am now going to read from the Government Gazette of 1st December, 1961, after the establishment of this Department in which the State President announced the task of the Department of Information. I am quoting from the Government Gazette of 1st December, 1961. At that time the Department was established with the following functions—

This is my assignment. This function was assigned to the Department on its establishment. A second assignment is—

I shall omit one or two points which need not be mentioned now. A final assignment is—

Then follows the general, all-embracing assignment—

Therefore the assignment to the Department is to convey the policy, as it is being implemented, affecting, for example, the Bantu, the Coloureds and the Indians. Knowledge of this must be conveyed to all the inhabitants of South Africa and of other countries. In other words, I am acting specifically in accordance with the assignments I have just read to this House.

Could the Minister just refresh our memories? Under what section of what Act was that proclamation issued?

It is a quotation from the Government Gazette of 1st December, 1961. It appears in Government Notice No. 1142 of 1961. It is the announcement of the establishment of this Department of Information as a separate Department. At that time these functions were specifically assigned to the new Department by the State President.

May I put a question to the Minister? I did not hear anything which related to policy. Would he kindly repeat the section dealing with the Bantu and the Coloureds?

I shall put this very clearly. The relative section of this notice reads as follows—

But not political policy?

I am not speaking of political policy. If the hon. member thinks I am, he is making a big mistake. I am not such a fool. In addition this notice deals specifically with the distribution, internally as well as externally, of data concerning the Coloured and Indian communities and their development. I have put this very clearly. I want to repeat that what we are concerned with here is not the specific political policy of a political party. If it is the policy of this Government to develop the Bantu homelands in a specific way, it is part of our assignment to convey information of such development to all people. It is part of our assignment to do so. Therefore I want to state very clearly that we shall continue on this road. We shall not be stopped. I want to repeat this. The hon. member must not misunderstand nor misinterpret me. What has to be conveyed, is not the political policy of the party, but that policy which affects development and _ which the Government decides upon from time to time.

There are two arguments I should like to mention in this connection. In the first place, the National Party as such in South Africa does not need a Department of Information to do its information work and to convey its policy to the public. It is not necessary for the National Party to do so. At the moment the National Party has an information service of its own. I myself used to be in charge of that and therefore I know what has been done. The hon. member for Stellenbosch is in charge of that information service at the moment. It has been built on sound foundations. It is capable of conveying information to all party members effectively. It is a special organization created in the party for conveying its policy. Therefore there is no need for the Department of Information to perform that task. There is no need for that.

There is a second matter on which I should like to touch. Now I want to think out loud. I am recalling the days of World War II in which South Africa was landed on the strength of a majority of 13 votes. After war had been declared, on the grounds of a majority of 13 votes in this Parliament, the State as a whole and the Government as a whole, with all the power it had at its disposal, was geared for the policy of making war in spite of the fact that that did not meet with the approval of a large section of the population. At that time there was no Department of Information. At that time the radio was used. Posters appeared in every street and on every corner bearing the words “We appeal to you to join”. At that time the entire country was involved in a war. That was the policy of the country. That was the policy of the Government and that was national policy. That was the position, but now when we with a larger majority, adopt a standpoint and lay down a policy in connection with matters which are not so real or as far-reaching as that, we may not supply information in that regard as it is not the policy of the country. But at that stage they could employ the State as a whole and all its machinery to implement policy. Hon. members must at least be consistent if they want to launch an attack on us in this connection.

I think I have now disposed of this question of the policy of the State, the policy of the country and the policy of the Government. I believe that in any democratic state the policy of the majority party is the policy of the Government and the policy of the country for as long as that party is in power. If another party is returned to power and becomes the government of the day, its policy becomes the policy of the country and the policy of the Government for the period it is in power. This is the position in every Western country. This is being done in America as well as in France, as I have indicated. There are no problems in this connection.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout advanced another argument. He spoke of the gap between theory and practice. He said that by means of our brochures we were creating an impression overseas that South Africa was a kind of Utopia. I think that was the word he used. He said when people came from the outside world to South Africa and came face to face with reality here, they were terribly disappointed. I want to tell the hon. member at once that my experience in this connection has been the opposite to his. I also have interviews from day to day with people from abroad who visit South Africa. They pay us a visit and they come to see the country. We meet them virtually every day. What is the attitude of these people? I need not mention any specific case. I almost want to go so far as to generalize by saying that virtually each one of them tells me, “We are astonished at the development of South Africa. Why do you not tell us more of what is happening in South Africa? Why do you not write more about the country? Why do you not commend your country more? Why do we know so little about your country? When we came here we were astonished at the excellent development. We are astonished at everything you are doing for the non-Whites. We are amazed by all these things.” This is the exact opposite of the experience of that hon. member. My experience is that they are not disappointed when they arrive here. Our experience has been that they usually are astonished and pleasantly surprised at the tremendous development. I want to concede at once that there are exceptions to all rules. It may be that the hon. member came across one or two exceptions, but in my opinion it is wrong of him to take those two exceptions and to quote them here in this House as representing the general state of affairs. I think in this regard his entire approach is wrong.

I did not say it was general.

In that case, why did the hon. member quote only these two cases? Why did he not mention all the other visitors he had also met? We use the hon. member for Bezuidenhout, in view of the fact that he is a member of the information group of the United Party, to put the standpoint of the United Party to these people. We give these people the opportunity of meeting the United Party. He usually is one of the members who meets these people. I am convinced that he, too, had met some visitors from abroad who had favourable criticism of South Africa.

I said that.

The next point that was made, was that the Department of Information was being used at the present time as a distribution channel of political speeches. In this connection reference was made to the Rapportryers. I want to tell the hon. member at once that to us as the Department of Information the point at issue is not the organization to which such a speech has been delivered, except when such organizations are political parties. When a speech has been made at a political meeting, we have nothing to do with its distribution. Our concern is not the organization itself. What does matter to us is whether or not matters of policy were affected in a speech. At times a Minister may think fit, and it may suit him well, to make an important policy announcement at a function of the Rapportryers. This can happen. At times it happens that a Minister specifically wants to do this. Sometimes official policies are stated at meetings of Chambers of Commerce or meetings of other organizations. For example, this is sometimes done at shows. When it happens that matters of policy are affected it is essential for us to disseminate information in that regard. If such a speech includes political matters, we cannot screen that speech in advance and say that it should first be scrutinized by us before we can take any decision as to whether or not we are going to make it available. If a Minister has a policy statement to make, or wants to explain some policy, we undertake the dissemination of information in that regard on his behalf. We make such information available to all newspapers, so that all of them may have information in that regard.

A further question the hon. member put to me was what our position was in respect of countries in Africa as such. I want to tell him at once that at the moment we have an information office in Rhodesia. If circumstances develop in such a way that an information officer could be stationed fruitfully in any particular country, serious consideration will be given to doing so, just as is the case in respect of overseas countries. The fact remains, however, that in this field we shall also progress from place to place as we are guided by circumstances. We do not have any objection to this, but we shall consider the case on its merits, as these appear to us from time to time.

I think I have now dealt fully with the few points on which the hon. member touched. He made a suggestion in connection with South African Digest. We shall go into that matter. I am not sure what the position is in this connection, but we shall give consideration to it. I want to give the assurance that we shall continue to proceed along these lines.

Now I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to state a few general matters in connection with the policy of my Department, the tasks we are fulfilling, and have to fulfil, and with regard to our entire approach as far as this matter is concerned. In the first place it may be well to mention a few illuminating figures appearing on our Vote. The total expenditure for this year is R5 million, and of this amount 35 per cent will be spent internally and 65 per cent externally. The break down is made on that basis. The low cost of living in this country, which is a feather in the cap of South Africa, is clearly proved from the following interesting statistics: Of our establishment of 428, only 50 members of our staff work abroad. In other words, our staff abroad constitutes 11.7 per cent of our establishment. In salaries, wages and allowances that 11.7 per cent earns 57.4 per cent of the total amount spent on salaries, wages and allowances, whereas the remaining 88 per cent receives only 42.6 per cent of that amount. This does not mean that we are over-paying the people overseas, but it does mean that the cost of living there is so high that they have to be paid much more to place them in that category in which they ought to be. Their salaries and and allowances have to be adjusted in this way, and that is why their salaries and allowances are so high in comparison with the salaries and wages paid in South Africa. This, i.e. the low cost of living in this country, is a feather in the cap of South Africa.

Expenditure on our Publicity Division alone comes to twice the amount of the total expenditure on salaries and wages and constitutes more than 54 per cent of the total provision on this Vote. Publicity is our task. Whereas increases, expressed as a percentage, in the present Budget come to approximately 9 per cent in general, the increase on this specific Vote, Vote No. 17, comes to 17 per cent. This is indicative of the seriousness with which the Government regards this matter.

I should like to devote the rest of my speech to the following ideas: In the first place, what is the field of activity of the Department of Information? The world of the twentieth century has shrunk in the sense that we have been brought closer together than ever before by means of communication media, transport, etc. Where it used to take six months for news to reach the outside world, news can now become available within minutes over the radio and on the television screens. Therefore we are living in a small world. The world has become more complicated.

That sinful thing, television?

Hon. members must please make their petty remarks somewhere else. This problem has become even more involved. Nations are living in close contact with one another, and as a result of the new communication media it is becoming progressively more easy to have knowledge of one another and to influence one another to and fro. But there is a further problem. At present the struggle concerns the views people hold and the way they think. The attitudes of people must be influenced. This is the struggle which is being waged between peoples and nations at the moment. Now the attitudes of a nation must be influenced. A nation must be informed in such a way that it reveals what its attitude is towards other states either in one direction or another. In the outside world there are many people who seek our undoing. There are people who have organized themselves for the specific purpose of seeking our undoing. There are foreign powers that are trying to push us out and, if possible, to isolate us in the field of sport, diplomatic relations, international relations and in the field of various international organizations. These people want to create prejudice against us from every situation. We are contending with those powers. The task of my Department is to see to it that we do not allow them to succeed in the approach they have.

We have 18 offices abroad which are spread over 14 countries. We have 24 offices in this country. During the past year new offices were opened at Vienna, Buenos Aires and Geneva we opened an office specifically in South America as we have never before had representation in that region. In addition it is the specific policy of the Government to seek closer contact with the continent. This is being borne out further by our air service links with that part of the world. We opened the office in Geneva as that is the international city in which so many international congresses are held. We feel we should have a finger on the pulse there so that we may know what is happening in the international world.

Having outlined this field to hon. members, I should now like to say something in connection with our staff, in other words the human material we have for fulfilling this task. It happens from time to time that allegations are made in the press or by ordinary members of the public to the effect that the officials of the Department are not qualified for performing the information task properly. One journalist wrote as follows about the officials of the Department. I quote—

This is the idea which some of these people have. The deduction I have made is that the quoted writers are of the opinion that the information task is one which can only be done by people with journalistic experience. I am prepared to accept that a journalistic background is very desirable for someone employed in this service. In a moment I shall make an analysis of the staff, and then hon. members will see that we do have many of these people in the Department. However, there are other divisions in which journalistic experience is not necessary at all, and in which it is necessary to have more training in particular directions. In those divisions we need people who have a background of, for example, Bantu studies, ethnology and Bantu administration. However, it is easy to prove that the above quote does not reflect the true state of affairs. This Department is chiefly and largely a professional one. This Department also has an administrative division just as any organization of its size has. As indicated in the latest annual report, however, the Department also has three specialized divisions for performing its information task. Before joining the Public Service the three professional officers in charge of the said divisions were in journalism where they gained experience for twelve, seven and three years, respectively. In addition to this all three of these officers have university degrees as well as considerable experience of liaison work in this country as well as abroad. The said three officers in charge of these divisions are being assisted by a properly trained group of officials. Of the officials of the Department 130 are in possession of university degrees. These degrees vary from bachelor degrees to doctor’s degrees. Thirty-eight of these officials have had experience in the private sector as journalists and publishers and seven have experience of radio work. Quite a few of them have a good grounding in film work. In the ranks of this considerable number of graduates there are people who graduated in Afrikaans, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, German and various Bantu languages. Other subjects in which they qualified and which are essential for the service, are subjects such as history, geography, economics, ethnology, psychology, political science, Bantu studies, Bantu administration, history of art, painting, law, theology, philosophy, sociology, agriculture and even music. Several of these officials also have experience of teaching and have gained experience in public bodies such as municipalities, etc. I am making this statement deliberately as we often hear criticism and statements to the effect that the Department is staffed only by people who have been taken over from other Departments and who are not fully equipped for the task they have to perform. To this I want to add that we always need more professional officers and that there are vacancies for them. With the new salary scales and better conditions of service which were announced very recently. I hope we shall succeed in this regard as well by attracting more people to fill the vacant posts.

I now come to our methods of operation. What are our methods of operation as such? Because we must achieve a great deal with a small staff we have to ascertain at whom our work is to be directed. After proper consideration has been given to this matter, we adopted the attitude that we should concentrate on the rulers of to-morrow. In several cases therefore young people have been brought into this, and information is being provided to them as they are the rulers of to-morrow. We reach them by means of lectures, talks, film shows, etc. In the second place we involve those people who control the communication media, in other words, the people in journalism, in broadcasting and in television. These people specifically are being borne in mind when we work in this direction. Thirdly we involve not only the people who mould opinion, but also the people who are the authors of the policy of a country. They include academic people, industrialists, businessmen and the politicians of various countries. In other words, with the means at our disposal we concentrate specifically on these people in the first place, although we are also fulfilling our full task in the wider field.

Of our methods of operation publications constitute one of our primary media. An enormous amount of money is spent on publications every year. I furnished this figure to hon. members a moment ago. I want to take as an example the very popular and effective publication, Panorama. This publication is fairly well known. At the moment Panorama is already being published in Afrikaans, English, German and French. It gives me great pleasure to announce that we hope to publish Panorama in the coming year in Dutch and in Spanish as well. In the Spanish world in particular there is a wide field for us. We feel that we should also like to give specific attention to the Netherlands. I have here a whole list of publications of the Department of Information. These include monthly publications, weekly publications, etc., the circulation figures of some of which come to more than 100,000. In addition there are occasional publications such as “South Africa —300 Years of Progress”. It is interesting to note that this book is published not only in English but also in American, because we draw a distinction in our publications between American and English. In a certain sense we regard the two languages as separate languages. Other publications are “Republic of South Africa—Progress and Prospects”, “South African Tradition”, “This is South Africa”, “South Africa in Fact”, etc. In addition we have occasional publications such as “Die Feitedis” which is already being published in Afrikaans, English, German. French, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Swedish and Italian. Recently we also added Danish. There also are specific publications for the Bantu in their own languages. These publications are intended specifically for the internal service. I am not going to try to pronounce these names as I am unable to pronounce them, but, in any event, these publications are published in the different Bantu languages, i.e. Xhosa, Zulu, Tsonga and Venda. Specific newspapers are also published for the Xhosa and for the Zulu as well as for the Coloureds. Specific publications are also prepared and printed for the Departments. One publication is for the Department of Coloured Affairs, another for the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and another for the Department of Indian Affairs. I can go on telling hon. members about these publications for half an hour, but unfortunately I have to leave it at that.

The next method of operation which we use is the medium of films. In this connection I may just mention that for this year we have made provision for R292,000 for our films. Films make a considerable contribution towards this service. These films are distributed in various countries of the world. The amount of R292,000 is a realistic approximation of the amount required for the number of films we are able to produce within one year. Our films are released in various countries of the world. In the United States of America alone the Information Office made a total of 149 copies of eight films available to television stations in 1966. In 1967 we made available 198 copies of 10 films. Easily 450 television broadcasts were seen by 15 million people in 1966. In 1967 24 million people saw the films on television programmes. Immediately after the closing of the Suez Canal three special television films dealing with this subject were prepared. More than 30 million Americans saw these television films dealing with the value of the Cape as an additional sea route. Similar adaptations were sent to France, New Zealand, Australia, Rhodesia, Switzerland, Canada, Portugal, the United Kingdom and Germany and were seen by 90 million people. Several other films, too many to mention, were shown on television by a large number of television stations in many Western countries. The Department regularly achieves success on a large scale at international film festivals, and its documentary films are screened and lectures and speeches are held on a regular basis in the outside world. We have just received another very interesting award for one of our films dealing with Radio Bantu. I hope to be able to show this film here in the Cape to hon. members next year as the Department usually does.

Then I should like to say a few words about our visitors from abroad. This number has shown a marked increase. During the past year we had 103 guests from abroad as well as 37 guests from this country. These guests came from various countries of the world and they were people who move on a high level. These people are moulders of opinion and our procedure is very clear. When they arrive here we let them see what they want to see. In addition we give them the opportunity of acquainting themselves with the standpoints of all the political parties. They have discussions with members of the Governing Party, members of the Opposition Party as well as with the hon. member for Houghton who puts the standpoint of the Progressive Party to them. Thereafter they are able to form an overall picture of the entire South African situation.

Then I should like to refer to the folders. This is a very interesting development and our entire approach in this regard is the distribution of these pamphlets on a large scale. Hundreds of thousands of these pamphlets are being printed and are being made available abroad. This is a further attempt to advertise our cause in the outside world. I should also like to say something in connection with advertisements. In the past year we advertised in 23 magazines in 9 countries. An amount of R49.440 was spent on this. The advertising idea has been criticized as being useless in that the advertisements bear the official stamp of the State. We realize only too well that advertising is not always one hundred per cent effective but by advertising we are nevertheless attracting the attention of the readers or of the public as such. In this regard I should like to mention a specific case. We advertised in the Wall Street Journal. I have here a copy of that specific edition. The advertisement which appeared in this Journal contained a whole series of facts in connection with South Africa. In response to this advertisement we had numerous inquiries about the opportunities and benefits in South Africa from the American commercial and business world.

I have been asked whether our labours are fruitful. My immediate and very definite reply is, “Yes”, our labours are very fruitful. Things are going well with our Department, we are making progress abroad, we are making progress in the world, and South Africa is proceeding step by step along this road. To this I must add that the work of this department is that of work which cannot be seen. By this I do not mean that our work i-s underground; by this I mean that our results cannot be seen immediately as the results of the work of my colleagues can be seen. If the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs plans a dam and has it constructed, there is concrete proof of the work of that Department. The work of this Department is a gigantic task but one cannot see the results immediately. We have a long-term policy and we must wait before we can see the results. The work we are doing will gradually follow its course and eventually we shall achieve success. However, we are achieving success, so much so that the U.N. is concerned about our success. The Secretary quoted in his report the reaction of the special committee of the United Nations on South Africa. I quote from the report—

This is a quotation from the report of the U.N. in which is reacts to the work we are doing. There is no clearer proof than this of the fact that we are achieving success, because these people who seek our undoing now mention specifically that we are taking effective steps and that they have to devote more energy to undoing our work. But I want to make another quotation in the same connection. The Secretary mentioned this in his annual report, but more recently than that, during the session of the Anti-Apartheid Committee of 17th and 18th March, in New York, Mr. Orleans of Ghana paid high tribute to the efficiency of the South African propaganda by saying—

Now I am not quoting from newspapers but from official U.N. documents. The fact that the Anti-Apartheid Committee of the U.N. has to take cognizance of our work and is reacting to our work, is proof that we are achieving success. I say we have awakened new, positive interest in many countries. You will be surprised at the number of letters I receive in which I am asked, after all these years, what apartheid is. (Laughter.)

The Chief Whip does not even know.

I like to listen to the laughter of the Opposition. At times, when one forgets one’s responsibilities for the moment, one feels like replying to these people and to ask them what they have been up to for 21 years if they do not know what apartheid is. However, I am mentioning this specifically in order to illustrate that we are at long last reaching a position where people no longer simply condemn, criticize and besmirch our policy, no longer detest our policy without their examining the policy, but where they now have a desire for the first time to have more particulars and to know what apartheid is. They have always been condemning apartheid without their having known what apartheid was, but now they ask what it is. I am dealing with the fruits of our labours. I have here a number of quotations I should like to make, and I can occupy the time of this House for many hours by making quotations so as to show what the fruits of our labours are, to show what people are saying, but I merely want to read out a few by way of illustration. We had a visit from a leading political columnist from Canada, and this is what he wrote—

This Canadian speaks of his own country’s “unrealistic and biased attitude” towards South Africa after he has paid us a visit and has seen the true state of affairs. A professor of the University of Indiana in America wrote—

A professor at one of our southern universities in South Africa wrote as follows (translation)—

Then one final idea before I drop this matter. An Italian industrialist of Johannesburg wrote as follows in pursuance of a series of eight articles by the chief editor of an Italian newspaper. This editor was a guest of ours in South Africa and this Italian reacted as follows from Italy—

In other words, these people come to see for themselves. They find that things are better than they expected them to be, and they have the courage of their convictions to speak out. I may refer in passing to the present controversy in Belgium with regard to the standpoint adopted by Prof. Du Bouisson, concerning Bantu Education in South Africa, a standpoint which has caused a great fuss to be made but in spite of which the professor still holds his view, i.e. that in the educational field this is a matter which he accepts with great approval. I am able to pay more compliments as far as our publications are concerned, but this has already been done adequately.

I want to say how I see my task as Minister of Information. Sometimes it is said that the Department of Information is the ears and eyes of the Government and of the country, but it is much more than that. The Department is the nervous system of the body of the State. It must be sensitive so as to be able to feel every movement and to sense every nuance, and it must be able to react immediately to those things. It must be sensitive so as to perceive when and where steps are to be taken in the interests of the State. It must be extremely sensitive and susceptible to criticism and it must know immediately how to neutralize that criticism. We, as a Department, are specially attuned to setting about this extremely difficult task with a will, but to me our task is to take responsible and strong action under all circumstances. Occasions often occur when one sometimes feels tempted in a moment of impulsiveness to do the wrong thing, but the very thing in which the strength of a State and of our Department is to be found is to act responsibly, maturely, calmly and correctly under all circumstances, in spite of the severest antagonism and the severest provocation. This is our task internally in the first place. It is our task to convey information to all the peoples within South Africa from day to day as regards the policy of the State and of the Government so that they may know exactly what that policy is because it affects them from day to day. This is our primary task. It is also our task to convey this information to the outside world. I want to begin with Africa. We shall take this information to those countries as well when the time is ripe for doing so, and we shall also take this information to the outside world. This is our task and this is our calling.

In conclusion I want to say that the strength and the influence of a nation, the greatness of a nation, do not necessarily reside in its large numbers or in its wealth or in the extent of its territory, it sooner resides in its inner values and integrity, in its inner determination and strength. We have often seen in history that large nations with enormous populations exersised virtually no influence in the world whereas small nations changed the face of the world and made large contributions to world history because they were led and inspired by people with strength, vision and faith. Numbers are not always the decisive factor; it depends on the inner strength of a nation. Our task in the Department of Information will be to see to it that the right image of this progressive country with its determined people, with its faith in the future, is projected to the outside world, and we shall steer our own people in the right direction to go into the future in safety. We in South Africa have the people; we have the right attitude and the will and the faith. We shall have success in the future, and my Department undertakes to fulfil its task in that field.

The hon. the Minister is a new Minister in this portfolio and it has always been the attitude of the Opposition to give any new Minister a fair chance. We shall give this Minister a chance as well, but I shall be failing in my duty if I do not tell him that we are not satisfied with his replies especially those he gave to two points. The first is the reply he gave to my question concerning the use of the information service for the distribution of political speeches. I think I proved that political speeches were being distributed at the expense of the taxpayer. Previously in reply to a question of mine, the hon. the Minister stated emphatically in this House that the Department handled only speeches in respect of official occasions, and not speeches in respect of unofficial occasions, but now we learn that the occasion does not matter. The Minister may go along and talk politics to the Rapportryers, the occasion does not matter. To me there is a contradiction. For the moment, I shall leave it at this, but the Minister must know that we shall keep a watchful eye on this and that we shall raise the matter again at the next session if he continues this practice. We are not satisfied with his reply in this connection.

Sir, we are not satisfied either with the reply the Minister gave with regard to the question of the dissemination of information relating to internal political policy to individuals in the country. I must honestly say that I did not read anything in the assignment of the hon. the Minister, the assignment he quoted, which gives him the right to disseminate internally information relating to political policy. We have no objection to the hon. the Minister or his Department informing anyone by means of distributing an Act or an official document or regulations of which the public should have knowledge. It would also be quite in order if he were to disseminate information amongst Whites about the life of the Bantu and the Coloureds, but we read nothing in that instruction —and I hope he will have another look at his assignment—which empowers him to disseminate information relating to political policy amongst individuals. According to his interpretation the information service has the right to disseminate internally amongst all voters in South Africa. Why does he use the term “every individual”?

But what else?

But then my interpretation surely is the correct one. As this is set down on paper, the Minister claims the right for the information service to put the policy of the Government to every voter in South Africa.

May I ask a question? Will the hon. member admit that politics are nothing but the science of governing a country?

Of course, but that is why we have a Parliament which sits for six months, and in this Parliament we fight out the politics of the nation. Then we have an election and the two sides address the nation and present their respective policies. The essence of the democratic system is not only that one should have the right to change the Government, but that the two political parties should have an equal chance of doing so. Any country that rejects the principle that the political parties should have an equal chance to change the Government, cannot call itself a democratic country. We must decide whether or not we are a parliamentary democracy and it is in terms of that norm that I am measuring my criticism. We are not satisfied with the reply of the Minister. We shall give him a chance, but we shall watch the position very closely, and I hope he will give serious consideration to the situation during the next six months. There is no point in his saying here that this is being done in other countries, because it is not being done there. I know of no democratic country in which the Government uses its information service for the dissemination of information relating to internal political policy. I place emphasis on “democratic” countries. Special powers were taken in countries such as France. At one time full powers were placed in the hands of the President and once he was virtually in the position of a dictator, but in no democratic country does the Government use its information service for the dissemination of information relating to internal policy. He mentioned America. In America as well as in England the parties are given equal time on the radio. This is almost gospel in these countries. I am not talking about the authoritarian countries, but in every democratic country the whole system of the parliamentary democracy is that no single party may have an advantage over any other party where the money of the taxpayer is used. The party may do everything it wants to do; it may control for itself all the newspapers it is able to control; it is its party political privilege to fight the other party in the field of party politics, but our objection is to official channels, Government channels which are there for matters affecting the State, being used for the dissemination of internal political policy.

They must propagate the policy of the Government.

That is a political policy. There is no objection to the Government explaining itself to the outside world; that is its right. The hon. the Minister may check British Record and the publications which are forwarded to us regularly, and he will find that Britain will not send out information about any political matter without adding what the standpoint of the Opposition in the British Parliament is. Each document which leaves England explains what the standpoint of the Government is and what the criticism of the Opposition is. It presents the right image of the country. One must give a complete image of the country. We do not agree with this idea which the hon. the Minister expressed here this afternoon.

Furthermore I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I am sorry that he misunderstood me at the beginning. In the cases to which I referred of the two persons who had been to this country and who had been disappointed, I was referring to one aspect only. I can testify to the fact that I have not as yet met a single person who visited South Africa and who was not impressed by our material prosperity and our progress, but in the same breath I may say that neither have I met anyone who did not give vent to his dissatisfaction about petty apartheid.

That is not true.

Men like Sir Alec Douglas Home, even some of the best friends of South Africa, say that they can see sense in many of the standpoints of the Government, but one and all criticize pettty apartheid.

But were you not their tutor?

How small a thing is petty apartheid?

Where is the dividing line between petty apartheid and big apartheid?

Order! Hon. members cannot all talk simultaneously.

I should very much like to discuss that with the hon. member over there, but this is not the occasion to do so. The Chairman will not allow me to go into the details of the policy. I say I am sorry that the hon. the Minister misunderstood me. I did not say that everyone who came here gained a wrong impression, but there are people who have never seen South Africa before and who rely on the Utopian way in which the policy is presented to the outside world, because the Minister must admit that some of the publications of the Department sound like the language of the French Revolution: Liberty, equality and fraternity! That is the language in which the policy of the Government is being presented to-day. Very well, if they are able to make friends for South Africa, that is first class; it is to our benefit…

We only present the policy of separate freedoms.

Order!

But the way in which it is being presented is, after all, far more attractive than reality. The hon. member for Yeoville told us that when he visited America with the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education he often had to protect the Deputy Minister. He himself said here that the presentation of the policy by the hon. the Deputy Minister to which he had to listen, made the policy unrecognizable to him, and that is true. For everything the Minister can gain overseas, he has the full support of this side, and in general we want to support the Department of Information, but now the duty will rest on that hon. Minister —and this is a great responsibility—to win the goodwill of both sides of this House and of the whole population for the Information Service. He will get it from us, but if that service were to be abused for making internal propaganda, he must expect a hostile attitude and he will get it.

I cannot allow the hon. member who has just resumed his seat to get away with all the nonsense he has been talking here.

Before the Minister starts his reply, will he answer my query about the advertisement publishing a statement by Bram Fischer?

Mr. Chairman, in connection with the last matter raised, I just want to tell the hon. member that I shall go into that specific matter. I do not know what happened there. But I shall furnish them with a written reply.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout tried to create the impression here that I had given him different information in reply to a question of his, than the information I had given him on this occasion. He suggested that the information I had given him on this occasion was completely different. Now I want to read to him the reply to the question he put to me—

That is what I said. To that I added—

That is the reply I gave him.

Yes, but read the last part of the reply too.

The second question was whether the Department ascertained whether the speeches were intended for official or unofficial purposes. The reply to this question reads as follows: “The Department does not handle speeches for unofficial purposes.”

Their preparation is not official.

When does the hon. member decide what is official and what is not official? Is a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce official or not? Is the opening of a show official or unofficial? When is a Minister acting in an official capacity and when is he acting in an unofficial capacity?

When he is invited by a public body in his official capacity as Minister.

If the Rapportryers is not a public body, is the Minister there in his official capacity?

Yes, in his political capacity.

He is not invited in his political capacity. The hon. member for Yeoville also addressed the Rapportryers; in what capacity was he acting?

In his political capacity.

No, Mr. Chairman, I want to make it very clear to the hon. member that I am not interested in the fact that he wants to play the bloodhound on me for the next six months. I shall continue to do my work in the way I think it should be done in the interests of South Africa. If the hon. member wants to be so disloyal towards South Africa as not to accept the image and the policy of South Africa which I present to the outside world, I shall accuse him of being disloyal towards the country.

I am speaking of this country. In the outside world you can do what you like.

The task of the Department of Information in this country is to let every inhabitant of South Africa have the information he ought to have.

Who decides?

The Minister is there to do so and the responsibility of deciding is his. The hon. member may criticize me if I employ the wrong means for this purpose. That is why I am here. But in that case the hon. member should mention specific cases. He should not make a general statement and tell me I may not do so. There is no need to send each voter in South Africa a pamphlet; that is the biggest lot of nonsense under the sun. This is not done by the Department of Information. I want to make this perfectly clear. What we do in fact do is to communicate to them the standpoints taken up by the Government with regard to policy matters and any policy statements which have been made, or decisions translated into policy by means of legislation, those things which affect every individual fundamentally, which determine whether he will go this way or that. Surely it is the task of this Department to do so; it is the task we have to perform internally. That task I shall perform despite the hon. member’s arguments. I shall continue to do so and I want to tell him now in anticipation—and he may keep a watchful eye on this-—that if he is of the opinion that we are striving to achieve political ends, he is making a big mistake. I repeat, the party to which I belong, has no need to use the machinery of the Department of Information for the dissemination of information; we have a very strong party information machine which provides information to supporters of the party. I want to leave this matter at that.

The second argument raised by the hon. member, was in connection with the …

Circulars?

No, I have dealt with that matter. I want to put this matter to the hon. member as follows: We are prepared to listen to him and we should like to do so in future; but I am not prepared to allow him to dictate to me what my task is and what my task is not. What I do, I shall do in the interests of South Africa, and that is how I shall act in the future. I want to express the hope that as a loyal South African the hon. member will also stand by what is being done for South Africa.

Vote put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 49.—Social Welfare and Pensions, R128,900,000, and S.W.A. Vote 26— Social Welfare and Pensions, R1,250,000:

Mr. Chairman, may I ask for the privilege of the half-hour? This is a most important Vote, and it is being undertaken by a new Minister. When one looks at this Vote, which involves some R129 million, and takes into account the many thousands of people who are involved in the money that is to be voted, we realize that many thousands of people are vitally concerned with the policy of the hon. the Minister. Since he is a new Minister, we are hoping that there will be new ideas brought to the fore in regard to the welfare of the poorer section of our community. If one considers the enormous amount of wealth in South Africa, it is indeed a pity to realize that there is still a considerable percentage of poor people in our community. We realize, too, that this hon. Minister is, of course, primarily concerned with the welfare of the Whites in South Africa, as in terms of Government policy the functions of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions have been divided amongst the various departments concerned with the various racial groups.

However, I believe this in an opportunity for the hon. the Minister to take into consideration all aspects of our welfare services in South Africa. That is why I am pleased that a national conference on welfare planning has been called for the 24th to the 26th of June. According to the statement made by the hon. the Minister, this is intended to be a national conference on welfare planning to obtain delegates from various welfare organizations, so that stock might be taken of the availability of welfare services in South Africa. This is indeed welcome, because we realize that no such national conference has been held since about 1944, when a conference was held on post-war planning and welfare services. We realize that there has been an enormous amount of urbinization in South Africa and the evolution that is taking place in this country from a mainly agricultural, rural community, to an urbanized, industrialized community.

However, there is one point here which I believe should receive the hon. the Minister’s attention. When such a national welfare conference is held, due consideration should be given to make it as national as possible by seeing that as many organizations are able to attend as is possible, and also to see that those persons who are presenting papers at this conference, or leading discussion, also come from a more or less cross-section of the various universities in South Africa. We know that in terms of the National Welfare Act, the National Welfare Board was created, as well as four commissions, and it came as a disappointment to many of the outstanding persons at the English medium universities that they were almost entirely ignored in those appointments. That is why it is also a disappointment that, when one studies the agenda and the programme for this national conference, there are no persons at all from the English medium universities, which also have faculties of social science and social work. Representatives from the Universities of Natal, Witwatersrand and Cape Town have evidently not been considered to lead discussion on these various important aspects of national welfare planning. I believe that the hon. the Minister should give consideration to this, as it is intended to be a full national conference as such, and spread the net a little in regard to those persons who are also able to make constructive contributions to the welfare services in South Africa.

The reason for calling this national welfare planning conference is obviously to take stock of welfare services in South Africa. It is certainly something which we welcome in principle. We realize that the Minister is new in this portfolio. He has an excellent department behind him for the administration of welfare services. I am sure that he only too fully realizes that he has a dedicated staff in his Department. I should particularly like to pay tribute to the officials in the Department who are undertaking this work. With the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions, it is certainly important that the officials, who have to serve the community in this respect, are not only ordinary public servants but are dedicated people with sympathetic leanings towards those people who are in need of assistance. That is why it is pleasing that the hon. the Minister has called such a conference and that he has also certain statements in regard to his policy concerning various aspects of his duties, such as family life, which is indeed the very corner-stone of the welfare services in any state, and also a statement in connection with his policy regarding the care of the aged.

This afternoon I should like to indicate that we on this side of the House have certain points of agreement as far as the Minister’s policy for the care of the aged is concerned. I should like to mention some of these points because we on this side of the House would also like to put forward suggestions arising from our attitude in regard to these matters. First of all, I think that one should quote from a statement which was made recently and which appeared in the quarterly newsletter of the South African National Council for the Welfare of the Aged. I should like to quote the following—

I believe that this quotation sums up the position as far as the ideal for the care of the aged in South Africa is concerned. When the hon. the Minister opened a home for the aged he made an important statement setting out his policy in regard to the care of the aged. He made this statement at the opening of the Silverjare Home, and it has since been issued as a publication of the research and information section of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions. The important points in this statement underline the necessity for a review of our welfare services as they affect the aged section of our community. In this policy statement the hon. the Minister made the observation that “the aged should remain as members of the community as long as possible”. We on this side of the House strongly endorse that point of view. The next point, however, deals with how this should be attained, the efforts that should be made, and the direction in which these efforts must go so that these persons will remain members of the community for as long as possible and not be accommodated in homes for the aged which are sometimes situated in isolated areas. Many of the aged persons in these homes feel that they have really reached the end of the road. As far as keeping the aged within the community is concerned, I believe that we should bear in mind six important points, which will to a certain extent bring about such a state of affairs. I believe that the most important point is the amount of pension which is paid to the aged. It is important that if a person is to remain in the community, he must have the financial resources to do so. It is indeed a great tragedy that many of these people in the latter part of their lives are forced to give up their familiar surroundings. They then virtually have to leave the community in which they have lived for many years because of financial difficulties. I believe that the hon. the Minister was perhaps just as disappointed as I was, and certainly as other members on this side of the House were, because in the Budget speech an increase in pension of only R1 per month was announced. This increase is payable from the 1st October. It is obvious that a pensioner is not able to maintain himself on the pension he receives. Various Government spokesmen have said from time to time that the pensions of the aged must be supplemented in various ways. The question of an increase in pension also revolves round the policy of the Government about providing a pension to all members of the community when they have reached the end of their working days. During the course of a similar debate last year, I once again made a plea for a contributory pension scheme, as I have done on many occasions. I pleaded for a national contributory pension scheme, the main object being that all persons in the Republic of South Africa would be entitled to receive a pension in the latter part of their days and that it should be a more adequate pension so that they would be able to maintain themselves at a more decent standard of living. When the hon. the Minister’s predecessor replied to the debate last year, he replied that the Government was investigating this whole question of contributory pension schemes fully, particularly in the light of the report of the Cilliers Committee. This was a committee of inquiry into pension fund matters. This committee submitted a detailed report which pointed out various shortcomings and which contained various recommendations in regard to pension schemes and pension funds. Last year the hon. the Minister indicated clearly that he accepted that we on this side of the House were not in favour of a welfare state and that the adoption of a system of social security such as that of the United States of America and Canada will not mean that we are on the road to becoming a welfare state and that the adoption of such a scheme would not be socialistic in any way. He accepted that fact and we are pleased that he did. However, he then indicated that it would not be possible for him to give any further reaction to the plea that had been made until such time as this commission of inquiry’s report had been fully investigated. I would therefore now like to ask the hon. the Minister whether his department has concluded its investigation, its survey and consideration of the very important recommendations of the Cilliers Commission’s report. It mentions in this report the transferability of funds and the difficulty whereby a person resigns from a pension fund so as to obtain immediate financial reward. It also mentions that an amount of over R60 million was withdrawn from the various pension funds for other purposes than retirement or death. This is an alarming state of affairs when one considers that these funds are primarily established so as to provide pensions and retirement annuities for the people concerned. The position as far as we are concerned, would appear to be that as regards private pension funds it will take many decades before one will be able to say that all White persons, are covered by pension schemes. I specifically mention the White group, because we are discussing the welfare matters and the care of the White persons in South Africa due to Government policy of separating these items. Increased pensions, I believe, will to a certain extent meet one of our present shortcomings by keeping these people in the community by reason of the fact that the present pension that is paid is a small supplementary amount of just over R1 per day for them to keep themselves on. It means that if they do not have any other financial means they have no alternative but to seek accommodation through a welfare organization in a home for the aged. The hon. the Minister has indicated in his policy speech that he realizes that South Africa has perhaps a higher percentage of aged persons living in old age homes than any other country in the Western world. He indicated that he was not satisfied with this state of affairs and that the matter required immediate rectification and certainly further investigation.

The other point which I believe is very important in keeping these people within the community is the question of housing. Obviously with the progress that has been made and the demolition of many old buildings a large number of aged persons and pensioners, not necessarily social pensioners, but other pensioners such as civil and railway pensioners as well who are living in accommodation with reasonable rentals are then faced with the difficulty that the buildings are demolished and they have to find somewhere else to live. I believe it is important that the hon. the Minister should have the closest liaison with his colleague, the hon. the Minister of Community Development, so as to ensure that where housing schemes are established, a percentage between seven per cent and 10 per cent, which is more or less the percentage of the population of people over 65 years of age should be provided for so that homes can be established, not necessarily old age homes as such, where these people can remain independent with semi-detached houses, cottages and flatlets. This obviously is the ideal as far as housing is concerned for those aged persons who are still able to look after themselves. If one looks at the problem one will soon see that in Johannesburg, for example, where a market research organization conducted a survey, that there are 16,000 elderly White men and women in Johannesburg having to live on R50 per month or less and that the accommodation position for these people is critical. The survey certainly highlighted the fact that widows represented approximately eight out of 10 of the women pensioners who were included in the survey, which means that this problem is indeed a growing one as far as accommodation is concerned. It also means that those who wish to establish old age homes for the aged have a great deal of difficulty in meeting the demand. The question of the availability of land is another important matter. As the cities develop there should at least be an area set aside for the housing of these people so that they can be provided with adequate housing. If possible, of course, this should be done on the cottage basis or on a system whereby these people do not become fully dependent on a home or a welfare organization. Indeed the various annual reports of the National Council for the Welfare of the Aged have indicated that the emphasis should be placed on providing housing which would be with in the means of aged persons who are able to look after themselves so that these organizations can rather concentrate on homes for the frail and the infirm.

Whilst dealing with the question of housing, I want to mention that during 1967 the House passed the Aged Persons Act which aims amongst other things to provide a degree of protection for persons who are living in old age homes and provides for certain minimum standards that have to be met and for the registration of these homes. Unfortunately the regulations governing this portion of the Act have not yet been promulgated and it is hoped that the hon. the Minister will be able to expedite the promulgation of these regulations so that that important Act can come into operation and serve the purpose for which it was put on the Statute Book. There is no doubt about it that there unfortunately are still persons who exploit the shortage of accommodation as far as aged persons are concerned.

The next point whereby I believe it is important to keep these people in the community is on the basis of the domiciliary services provided by various welfare organizations. Obviously these welfare organizations have to receive financial assistance. The hon. the Minister’s department does provide vital financial assistance, and advice to these various welfare organizations, but the one aspect which I believe is most important in respect of the domiciliary services is the question of the meals on wheels. This is a service provided to room-bound aged persons. In many cases they are suffering from a degree of malnutrition when discovered by social workers. I have had the privilege to serve on the management board of one of these organizations. We have found an alarming increase in the number of aged persons who have not sought the help of welfare organizations. These organizations have carried out investigations and have found that many of these people are certainly in dire need of assistance, as they are no longer able to cook for themselves, and that they are becoming under-nourished so that sooner or later they become a severe financial responsibility of provincial hospitals and later enter the lists of the chronically ill persons where there is another gap in our welfare services. I believe that the meals on wheels scheme has rapidly been extended and expanded throughout the Republic. It started off in a small way and has extended to various church denominations and to welfare organizations who administer a meals on wheels service, thus providing nutritional meals to these people who are home-bound. It is unfortunate that the hon. the Minister has not seen his way clear to grant a subsidy for this service. If one looks at the financial reports of welfare organizations one sees that there is an enormous loss involved in these meals on wheels services. It costs 40 to 50 cents to provide these meals and the pensioner is of course only asked to pay 15 cents and in some cases 20 cents for a meal. I believe it is important that the hon. the Minister should give further sympathetic consideration to the subsidizing of the meals on wheels service. A person who becomes house-or room-bound due to the advance of age and certain disabilities, can also benefit from the home-help service scheme undertaken by welfare organizations, which again carries out a very important task. Many of these people are assisted in regard to their everyday needs, such as making their beds, bathing and so forth, by this home-help service. These people are kept out of homes for the aged and are still kept in the community to a certain extent as many of them would rather live in their rooms and receive assistance such as the meals on wheels or the home help service rather than be admitted to a home for the aged. Incidentally, these two schemes carry out a very important function in that invariably they improve the health of the pensioner, both mentally and physically, and delay their future admission to a home for the aged. I believe that the home-help service should also receive a subsidy from the Government so that the scheme can be extended on a greater scale. Many of the welfare services would like to extend their schemes, but they are hindered by a lack of finance and in extending their services they are often hindered by having to raise funds continuously.

The next point I want to raise is the shortage of welfare workers which is another means whereby these aged people can be kept within the community. When one looks at the position one finds that as far as qualified social workers are concerned, most of these people are attracted to the care of children, for instance, and child welfare. This is understandable as this appeals to young women who are qualified social workers. They therefore rather work in child welfare agencies. Consequently the organizations that are caring for the aged have difficulty in finding qualified social workers to fill the posts. In spite of the fact that many of these posts are recognized posts for subsidies, some of the welfare organizations caring for the aged are unable to fill the posts and find it almost impossible to recruit social workers for this work. It is vitally important to attend to the everyday needs of many of these aged persons, who require the assistance and guidance of a social worker. I would therefore like to suggest that the hon. the Minister should give consideration to extending these subsidies in regard to certain of these social workers in view of the fact that some of them are married and have children and are therefore unable to work in a full-time capacity for a welfare agency. If there are two of them working on part-time basis with a 20-hour week each, then of course a subsidy is received by the welfare organization. However, there are a number of qualified social workers, who would be prepared to work mornings only, that is a ten-hour week. These people will then become available to welfare organizations and will continue with their welfare work for which they are highly qualified. I would therefore like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that consideration should be given to having a subsidy paid for these part-time social workers who are also able to provide an excellent service to the aged in order to keep them in the community.

These I believe are six important points which could assist in making the aged remain part of the community, namely increased pensions, adequate housing, the meals on wheels service, the home-help service, social workers and service centres and clubs for the aged. These service centres and clubs for the aged are also providing an excellent service amongst aged people. These facilities mean that one of the main problems of the aged, namely loneliness, is overcome to a certain extent. When one visits these service centres, one can only be impressed by the magnificent work which is undertaken by the social workers and the volunteer workers as well. The clubs for the aged which do not provide quite the same services as service centres also assist aged persons to remain in the community. Through these clubs they have contact with people. I believe these clubs are doing a vitally important task and I believe the Department of Social Welfare should give every encouragement to the welfare organizations doing this work, because it is an important aspect of welfare work. However, when one looks at the Estimates, one is surprised to see that only an amount of R5,000 is to be granted to these clubs for the aged. It is the same amount that appeared on the Estimates last year as far as subsidies for clubs for the aged are concerned. This is another important aspect which I believe should receive the consideration of the hon. the Minister because it helps to keep the aged persons within the community.

Now I come to the group where most welfare organizations believe the greatest need arises, namely the persons who are frail and infirm and who have to be admitted to homes. They are unable to look after themselves and have no alternative but to be accommodated in a home for frail and infirm aged where they can receive assistance. There are some of those who unfortunately do not qualify for social pensions and since their incomes are small, they are faced with the difficulty that when they become chronically ill and bedridden enough to be cared for by private nursing homes, for example, they are charged over R100 per month, which is beyond the means of many of them. The question of providing accommodation for the frail and infirmaged has been receiving the attention of the department. There is no doubt about that. Certain homes are in the course of being erected. I believe that this aspect is one of vital concern. If one has read the report which I quoted in the debate last year and which appeared in the magazine, Social Work, the professional journal for the social worker, this great gap which exists in our welfare services was highlighted. The gap exists where an aged person receives treatment but who then suffers certain after effects and who is then classified a chronic sick person. Then the hospital authorities ask that these people should be placed somewhere else because the bed is required by a person who needs treatment. No further treatment is then possible for this particular case. Fortunately this person then becomes the responsibility mainly of welfare organizations who find it extremely difficult in placing him anywhere. I believe this is an important gap in our welfare services which requires the urgent attention of the hon. the Minister. The whole question of care of the aged and the housing of the aged, is one which revolves around finance. The hon. the Minister and his department are responsible for that finance and for giving the necessary encouragement. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, since the hon. the Minister is dealing with this Vote for the first time, it is our privilege not only to congratulate him on his appointment and to welcome him to that position, but also to assure him that we on both sides of this House regard this matter of Social Welfare seriously and that we will support him in every possible way. Since he took over the Vote, we have seen that he has big plans as far as the Department of Social Welfare is concerned. Reference has already been made to this attractive brochure which has been published and in which it is quite clearly set out who are entitled to pensions and what requirements they have to comply with. We are very grateful to the hon. the Minister and his Department for this publication.

The previous speaker referred to the major congress which would be held in connection with welfare planning. It is a pity that he cast some doubt upon the persons who would act as speakers on that congress. These people are recognized throughout the country as authorities in that sphere. I do not think anybody has been done an injustice by their appointment. We expect major results from that congress; we are looking forward to it, and we want to thank the hon. the Minister and congratulate him on this step forward. Other members of the group on this side of the House will reply from time to time to matters raised by the previous speaker.

In the few minutes left to me, I should like to raise a few matters which are of great importance to us. The first one I should like to raise, concerns the rehabilitation of the alcoholic. We know that this major threat is presenting itself in our country to an increasing extent. I am referring to statistics which have been properly processed by the South African National Institute for Personnel Research. Statistics reveal that there were 84,000 alcoholics in our country in 1960. With the increase in population and other factors, it is estimated that there are 100,000 alcoholics in our country at present. If one were to consider what it means to have such a large number of alcoholics, one could get a good idea of how it affects the country’s economy. It is calculated here, according to statistical formulae, that we can safely say that 1,320,000 working days are lost as a result of the fact that alcoholics are not in a position to do their work. We are very grateful for the fact that there are various organizations which concern themselves with the rehabilitation of alcoholics. We want to ask the hon. the Minister that he and his Department should investigate and support to an increasing extent all the different trends in this sphere in future wherever it is possible to do so. In cases where transit homes or homes for after-care exist which are considered essential, the Department should help us in this task whenever an appeal is made for assistance. We know, however, that the Department will not turn a deaf ear. Some of us have already had the opportunity of visiting various Government retreats. We have in mind particularly the magnificent and excellent work that is being done at Magaliesoord. We want to ask that if it is decided in future to extend places such as this, the Department should seriously consider decentralizing and establishing similar units in other parts of the country where they are needed just as much. We in the Northern Cape held a series of regional conferences throughout that area. The regional welfare council of the Northern Cape was deeply impressed by pleas received from distant places for a home to be established in their vicinity where alcoholics could be rehabilitated. From the nature of the case, this is a difficult task because those people must first of all be conditioned so that they are willing to accept assistance. If this is not done, it is no use sending them to a retreat. This has been my experience of many people in remote areas, namely that after they have worked on a person and have eventually reached the stage where such a person is willing to accept assistance, they have found that there is no accommodation to be had in the homes. None of the homes can accommodate them and, moreover, the person is unwilling to go away because he will have to go a long way from his home and his domestic environments. In this way a good opportunity of rehabilitating an alcoholic is lost. We plead that a retreat of this nature and one similar to those that exist in other parts of the country be established somewhere in the Northern Cape. We know that such a retreat will pay handsome dividends.

Then there is another matter I should like to raise under this Vote. We know that the Van Wyk Commission went into the entire problem of the mentally retarded child. We know that the Department of Health, by whom the terms of reference were issued, is considering the report. We have learned that the English text is not available yet, but we know that when this report is published, it will be evident that various Departments are involved. We want to ask the hon. the Minister to help us as far as the responsibility of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions in this matter is concerned, that we should do all we can to see that justice is done to that type of child. There are various places in which this type of child can be cared for and treated to-day. If we consider the work, we have in mind that the Van Wyk Commission has already brought out a report and has pointed out to us that 60 per cent of the children have been made productive overseas. Here we have this large number of children and there still seems to be some uncertainty as to which Department should be responsible to care for these children. We want to plead with hon. the Minister to alleviate the needs of these people in the meantime, if possible.

Then there is another matter which I raised here last year, and which I want to raise here again this year. I believe the hon. the Minister has this matter much at heart. It concerns people suffering from incurable diseases. I am now referring to people in the subeconomic group. If these people suffer from incurable diseases, the hospitals do not want them. These people have nowhere to go. They must practically look for a place to die. They suffer severe pain because they cannot afford the expensive medicines to alleviate the pain. We feel this is a matter which most definitely falls under this Department. We want to plead very seriously with the hon. the Minister to consider doing something, as has already been done and is being done in certain overseas countries for people suffering from incurable diseases. We should establish these facilities so that they can spend the last few years of their lives in peace and quiet.

Another matter which I should like to mention, is the question of the settlement at Ganspan which is situated in the Northern Cape. It is a pity my hon. colleague of Kimberley (North) is not here at present, otherwise he would have supported me wholeheartedly. However, I am doing it on his behalf and I want to ask that we should consider making even more use of Ganspan. We are very grateful for what is being done there, but we want to plead that Ganspan should be converted so that a certain part of it may also provide housing for those people who cannot live on their premises. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, when my time expired, I was dealing with the question of providing homes for the aged infirm. I do not intend replying to the hon. member for Kimberley (South) who has just spoken, as other members intend dealing with the question of alcoholism. As far as homes for the aged infirm are concerned, the question of additional subsidization is necessary. According to reports there is a joint committee of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions and the Department of Community Development which is making a special study of this problem. However, where a home is being established for the aged infirm, one of the greatest difficulties is the cost of equipping that home. In terms of the department’s policy a subsidy of 75 per cent of the cost of the furniture and equipment is granted, up to a maximum of R90 per subsidizable inmates. There has been a tremendous increase in the cost of the equipment and furniture. It is found that the cost of equipping such a home to-day amounts to over R200 per inmate. Obviously, these welfare organizations are faced with this ever-increasing cost. Provision was made in the Estimates for special grants. This year I see that this amount has been increased from R100,000 to R200.000. It is hoped that much of this amount of money to be voted will be channeled towards these organizations which are experiencing difficulty in meeting the cost of furnishing the homes for the frail and infirm aged. In terms of the sales tax, of course, we will find that the estimates of costs will be further increased due their having to pay the additional amount on furniture and fittings. I do hope that the hon. the Minister will give due consideration to these organizations who are endeavouring to meet this important gap which does exist in the welfare services. I also hope that the hon. the Minister will give consideration to the providing of accommodation for people who have become helpless.