Mr. Speaker, I just want to inquire from the hon. the Deputy Minister what gave rise to the deletion of the words “or offered” and “offer”. To me these seem to be important amendments to this clause, and we should like to know the background to this from the hon. the Deputy Minister.

After discussions had been held with the Chamber of Mines and the Property Owners’ Association, we felt that this might cause delay when the Chamber of Mines or a mining company wanted to acquire part of a piece of land for specific mining purposes. That is why we saw fit to introduce these amendments in this way, so as to facilitate subdivision for specific mining purposes.

Amendments put and agreed to.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The Bill before this House at the moment is a consolidating measure which, as is required by the rules of this House, has been certified by both the law adviser concerned and the Parliamentary Counsel as a Bill which re-enacts existing law without amending it.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed to Committee of whole House.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Chairman, I understand that in the near future the hon. the Minister of Mines will be introducing a Bill which will deal with pneumoconiosis and allied diseases. I am not certain when this Bill will come before the House, but I think that this is a good time to exchange a few thoughts about what is contemplated as far as the health of the mineworker is concerned. Because of the growing complexity of the mining industry and allied industries, I find that pneumoconiosis alone cannot be considered as the only disease that is affecting the mineworker, for which compensation is required. Pneumoconiosis as we know it has been subdivided and there are other conditions as well which we now have to take into consideration when we are dealing with compensation of the mineworker. The main one that is taken into consideration now is tuberculosis, and another one of the subdivisions of pheumoconios is that is compensated for is asbestosis. But there are others; we have to consider cardiac diseases and bronchitis.

It is chronic bronchitis that I want to say a few words about now. An experiment, known as the Carletonville Study, was conducted. The hon. member for Carletonville probably knows about this. Some remarkable findings were obtained as the result of this study. Up to now chronic bronchitis has not been compensated for, but as a result of this study we find that the time has arrived when consideration must be given to compensating miners who are found to be suffering from chronic bronchitis. There were two groups of people who underwent this investigation. 265 people were not exposed to a dusty atmosphere. Of those 265 people, only 19,6 per cent were found to be suffering from bronchitis. 562 people were exposed to a dusty atmosphere and of this group, 39,3 per cent contracted chronic bronchitis, and have not been compensated for the disease. When the Minister contemplates introducing new legislation, I feel that he must not only bear in mind those diseases which are already being compensated for, but he must include chronic bronchitis, because we know now that the disease is aggravated by the dusty atmosphere, that they do suffer from this disease, and that it is debilitating, and I feel that they should be compensated for it.

There are allied diseases which the Minister of Mines, in his capacity as Minister of Mines and Minister of Health, will have to take into consideration. One of the reasons why I suggested that the Division of Industrial Health should be expanded, is because, in general industry, cases of pneumoconiosis have been found in the following industries: Monumental masonry, ferrous foundries, refractories, ferrous and non-ferrous foundries, engineering (especially where grinding is taking place), asbestos products manufacturing, metal polishing and buffing, stock brick manufacturing; pottery, tile and pipe manufacturing, face-brick manufacturing, ornamental pottery manufacturing. All these industries are employing people who suffer from pneumoconiosis as a direct result of contact with dust. Sir, I want to leave that for a moment, but I want to impress upon the Minister how important it is for him to take all these diseases into consideration when he is dealing with pneumoconiosis. I want to ask him to take these people who are suffering from diseases in allied industries under his wing for treatment and to see that they are compensated on the same basis as the mineworker.

I want to say a few words again about the accident rate on the mines. I spoke about this briefly last year, and in the few minutes left to me I want to say to the hon. the Minister again that something must be done to try to lessen the accident rate on the mines. In 1970 on the gold mines there were approximately 425 000 people employed. We had nearly 25 000 accidents on the gold mines. Of these 24 thousand were not fatal accidents. All in all, we had 524 fatal accidents. On the coal mines we had 79 deaths out of 1 788 accidents. On the diamond mines we had 21 deaths; in other mineral mines we had 146 deaths. All in all, in 1970 there were 813 deaths on the mines. The position is very unsatisfactory because many of these accidents in which people have been killed could have been obviated. Here I have a few examples to show what is taking place—

Sir, these are injuries which are not trivial; they are injuries which resulted in the workers having to be put off work for not less than 14 days. How long can an industry be allowed to go on when the casualty rate is as high as that? In an industry fraught with such great potential health and accident hazards, where two people die almost every day and where there are over 30 000 non-fatal accidents every year, I feel that the pensions and the compensation paid to these people working in the mines are totally inadequate. The pneumoconiosis pensions and the compensation paid in respect of accidents and deaths should be reassessed and re-adjusted immediately to what we regard as rational and reasonable figures. I feel that the hazards to which people working on the mines are exposed must be taken into account when determining compensation, otherwise I am certain that we are going to find that as the years go on we are going to have fewer and fewer young people entering the mines. It is impossible to go on like this, and I ask the hon. the Minister to take these matters into consideration when he introduces his new Bill. I feel that people working on the mines have not been fully compensated in the past for health hazards. The same applies to the accident rate, where people are disabled or killed and where the widows simply cannot make ends meet on the compensation that is now paid to them. [Time expired.]

Sir, I rise immediately to reply to the few points raised by the hon. member for Rosettenville, and I should also like to raise one matter with him. The first point is in connection with accidents. I am referring now to all mines and works in South Africa. Let me say, firstly, that the incidence of accidents, and death as a result of accidents, is of course a matter about which we are always concerned. It is a matter which we handle with the greatest circumspection at all times; it is a matter to which the Government Mining Engineer devotes his personal and continual attention. Secondly, when one compares these statistics with mining in the rest of the world, one should not overemphasize the incidence in South Africa. I think that would be wrong. I also want to tell the hon. member that since I have held this portfolio, I have not received any specific complaints or representations from the mineworkers in regard to this matter. In other words, they realize that within the limits of the dangers which, in any case, are inherent in mining, there is the closest co-operation on the part of the authorities, mine management and the mineworker to keep the accident figure as low as possible. The position last year, for all mines and works, was that 824 persons were killed and 30 046 injured. When one compares these figures with those for the previous year, one finds that the accident figure per thousand is the same. The fatality rate last year was slightly lower than that for the previous year. In 1970 it was 1,18 per thousand, as against 1,14 per thousand last year. In other words, there was no increase. I can also tell hon. members that the main causes of accidents in mines other than coal mines are rockbursts or falls of ground, while accidents in the coal mines are caused mainly by traffic—in other words, trains, rail traffic and so forth. In the second half of January this year, I launched a campaign at the Blinkpan Mine in the Eastern Transvaal which was aimed at reducing the number of traffic accidents in the coal mining industry, if at all possible. I also want to say that the Chamber of Mines as well as the mineworkers’ unions were represented, and that every effort is being made to make a success of this campaign. So much as regards accidents.

Now, as far as occupational diseases are concerned, hon. members will remember that during the discussion on this Vote last year, I announced that I intended to introduce legislation this session to amend the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act, 1962. Briefly, the historical facts are these: This legislation has been in operation now for about 10 years, 10 years during which a great deal of good has been forthcoming from the operation of the Act for the unfortunate mineworker who has contracted pneumoconiosis. However, we also learnt a great deal during this decade. This legislation was drawn up by my Department last year and it was discussed with all interested persons. I may say that I also had exhaustive discussions with the Mineworkers’ Union and with the Federation of Mining Trade Unions. I am pleased to say that we reached a very large measure of agreement. In this connection I want to emphasize that this legislation does not relate to pneumoconiosis only; it will be called the Occupational Diseases Act. The hon. member for Rosettenville intimated that chronic bronchitis would possibly be such a disease. There are others as well. I shall say a word or two about that just now.

I have also had this legislation made available to all interested parties, including the Chamber of Mines, for their comments. We are still having talks with them. This is a very important piece of legislation and we envisage far-reaching changes. Without going into detail, allow me to mention just two things. The one is that it is intended now to have two stages instead of three. The second principle is to pay a person a lump sum instead of a pension, and that amount will now take the same form as an amount disbursed under the Workmen’s Compensation Act. In other words, if a person has contracted an occupational disease, it is his right to be compensated in that regard. Hon. members will, of course, also realize that one must not act precipitately with legislation as far-reaching and as greatly improved as this, nor do I want to place this House in the position of having to decide overhastily in this regard. I want to say furthermore that as far as the financial implications are concerned, the Cabinet instruction was very clear and the Federation of Mining Trade Unions and other interested parties are aware of it. The instruction was that these lump sums of money had to estimated actuarially in such a way that they would involve no increase in current expenditure. Any increase is a matter for the Cabinet itself to decide, and a decision has still to be reached in this regard. Because these discussions have not yet been finalized, I do not intend to introduce this legislation this year, but to discuss it further with interested parties during the recess and, if possible, to publish it. If possible, visits will also be paid to other countries and places, either by my Department or by myself, so that we can acquaint ourselves with what is being done there in regard to occupational diseases generally, not only pneumoconiosis.

The further point I want to emphasize is that this legislation will apply not only to the mineworker, but to all workers in South Africa who are employed in mines, works or factories. I have taken the liberty of introducing this legislation a year later because I have experienced a great deal of goodwill among the representatives of the mineworkers and because, in any event, at the beginning of the session next year, I intend not only to introduce the Bill, but to have it referred to a Select Committee. I think it is fair and equitable to deal with such an important matter in this way, because we must not forget that this legislation, the pneumoconiosis legislation already on our Statute Book and the legislation we envisage, is legislation which really gives the lead to the entire world. We are in the van in regard to modern legislation concerning pneumoconiosis and, once the new legislation is placed on the Statute Book, that will be the position with regard to occupational diseases generally. I am aware that there are certain pneumoconiosis sufferers who are finding things difficult at the moment, but they are also conscious of the fact that this Government has always been more than generous to them. During the five years that I have been responsible for this portfolio we have effected increases on no fewer than four occasions, and I think it was quite unexpected that, notwithstanding the economic conditions prevailing in the country when the Budget was introduced, we were still able to give relief to the widows of pneumoconiosis sufferers and to pneumoconiosis pensioners. I therefore want to appeal to the mineworkers in general and to their representatives to be patient and to enable us to make use of this further year so that eventually we can produce what will really be model legislation. In the meantime they do still have the benefit of the concessions made in the last Budget.

The hon. member referred to other possible occupational diseases in respect of which compensation ought to be paid. Just let me give the hon. member the following facts: The first is that the National Research Institute for Occupational Diseases came into being under the wing of the Medical Research Council with Prof. Oosthuizen as Chairman of the Institute. All interested parties, including the Department of Labour, my Department, employers and employees, are represented on that Institute, and they are doing research in regard to occupational diseases. I inaugurated a mobile unit recently which will visit various industries to give lectures and to carry out tests. The hon. member for Virginia has raised the question of schlerodermi in the past. I want to give the House the following information so that hon. members will have some idea of the enormous amount of research required before one can say with reasonable certainty that such an industrial disease is of a compensable nature. On my instructions, research has been done in this connection over the past 18 months; 89 263 cases among South African Railway personnel have been investigated; 20 000 cases in the military services have been investigated; and 33 917 cases in the Mine Benefit Society have been investigated. This deals with the whole history of the case, including the findings. 7 440 post-mortem examinations were carried out, 6 000 at a certain clinic in Johannesburg. In other words, each of 156 000 cases was investigated properly by scientists. The files from 1953 at the Miners’ Medical Bureau and all the out-patient files from January, 1970, to October, 1971, at the Johannesburg Hospital were examined. From this research it appeared that there were 136 cases of schlerodermi. Of those 136 cases, there were 115 which had in some or other way been connected with mining. In other words, there is a strong indication that the incidence of the disease schlerodermi possibly has some connection with mining. If it is proved that there is some connection, provision will be made under the new legislation for compensation to be paid in such cases. I think that answers the questions of the hon. member in connection with accidents as well as in connection with the pneumoconiosis legislation. There will most probably be other hon. members who will want to discuss this matter.

I want now to raise a matter with the hon. member which to my mind is of great importance as far as our miners are concerned. My colleague, the hon. the Minister of Labour, has already referred to it. During this session the chief speaker on labour matters, the hon. member for Yeoville, said here on behalf of the Opposition that it was the policy of the United Party that Bantu workers should be given affiliated trade union rights. This is the way he put it—and I quote from his Hansard—

And so he goes on. The hon. member for Wynberg also made a statement on this matter before she was gagged. She had this to say—

In other words, what has been suggested by the Opposition during this session is that the present situation in regard to trade unions in South Africa should be changed so that the Bantu could become organized; so that, as the hon. member for Yeoville said, they could be affiliated with the White trade unions “at the outset”—in other words, with the Mineworkers’ Union as well—and so that they could then speak with one voice. Firstly, they are in favour of changing the present situation; secondly, they are advocating that the Bantu should have their own organization; thirdly, they are advocating the affiliation of that organization with the White trade unions, and fourthly, that they should speak with one voice. There is one question that I want to ask the hon. member for Rosettenville immediately. It is not clear to me what the hon. member for Yeoville meant by the words “at the outset”. What does he mean by that? Does he mean that this will be the beginning and that it is an interim arrangement which will have to develop further at a later stage? I should like to know this from the hon. member.

I want to tell the hon. member now that our policy is diametrically opposed to this. I am not going to enunciate the policy now, because the hon. the Minister of Labour put it very clearly during the past two weeks. What is clear, however, is that the policy enunciated by the hon. member for Yeoville is in conformity with the policy not only of the Progressive Party, but also of Tucsa. Tucsa has been working towards a situation of this nature for some years now. I want to state very clearly that not only must our trade unions, and specifically the Mineworkers’ Union, take note of this, but that they ought also to express their views in this regard. The Mineworkers’ Union in South Africa is a trade union which acts very responsibly, a trade union with which we have sound co-operation. However, it is a trade union which is very careful to ensure that the colour bar in the mines is maintained. It is exclusively a White trade union and I think that they should state whether they agree with the policy of the United Party that the nonWhite, and specifically the Bantu, should be organized to affiliate with them and to speak with one voice with them. The second question I should like answered is: If they are to speak with one voice, how is this to happen? Will the Mineworker’s Union be asked under United Party policy to allow the Bantu to affiliate with them in the mining industry? That is clear from what the hon. member for Yeoville has said. If this is so—and I have no reason to believe that it is not so—I want to say that what is now emerging in South Africa is a terrible thing. It flabbergasts me that we have had the suggestion here, completely unsolicited, that the Mineworkers’ Union, together with the other trade unions, should become affiliated with the Bantu, or the Bantu with them, so that when they come along to talk to me, as they have come along to discuss this legislation with me, they can speak with one voice. I shall be pleased if the hon. member will give us some clarity in this regard. Our mineworkers must know that, should the United Party come into power, this is going to be the policy. They must know then, as we on this side of the House see the policy, that it constitutes a most deadly threat to any mineworker in South Africa. If a policy of this nature is applied to the mineworker in South Africa it will not only be a dangerous policy. The labour peace which we enjoy on our mines and in our industries, the labour peace on which the security and the future of the mineworker are based, the peace that he has known down the years because his trade union has negotiated responsibly with us during this period— this is done because there is adequate machinery to provide for the needs of the Bantu—will be threatened. That labour peace will be affected. I want to say today that if ever such a policy is applied in South Africa in regard to the mineworker, not only will the mining industry suffer, but the whole of South Africa will face possible ruin. I want to ask the hon. member for Rosettenville whether this policy which the leader on his side in respect of labour matters has advocated—the changing of the present situation, the affiliation with the White trade unions—applies to the mining industry as well and whether it applies specifically to the Mineworkers’ Union. I think the miners in South Africa are entitled to replies to these questions from the hon. member from Rosettenville. I can come to no other conclusion than that that is the policy. It is inherent in the words of the hon. member for Yeoville and in the statement of the hon. member for Wynberg. Let me say on behalf of this Government that, together with the mine-workers, we shall oppose a tendency, a direction, a policy of this nature to the utmost, because it is in the interests of nobody.

Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the hon. members who represent mineworker constituencies, I at once want to thank the hon. the Minister for the very strong standpoint he has adopted in connection with the matter to which he has just referred. I think it is a good thing for us all, including every mineworker, to take note of the standpoint of the Government.

In the few minutes at my disposal I want to raise a few local matters with the hon. the Minister. Very recently, there on the East Rand, we had to take note of the closing of the office of the mining inspectorate. I want to say that we are very sorry that this office has had to be closed after so many years. We understand that the requirements of the service make this essential, and we accept it as such. I think it is fitting that we express appreciation here today to those people, who manned this office throughout the years, for their excellent service, including their services in the interests of the mineworkers on the East Rand.

If one looks at the annual report one sees—the closing of this office has a bearing on that—that the mines on the East Rand are slowly but surely disappearing. They are gradually closing down. Now we have another problem in this connection. It is also true that as a result of the proposed closing of the mines there, an increasing number of miners are actually being pushed out into the street at a relatively advanced age. Provision cannot be made for these people at other mines. I do not want to say that this is going to cause a social problem, but I do want to say that many of those families experienced quite extensive financial problems, particularly recently with the economic recession which has prevailed and which has restricted employment opportunities. I do not know what the solution is, but I want to know whether the Department of Mines cannot institute an investigation into what can be done for these people.

I also want to refer to a matter which was raised here by the hon. the Minister, i.e. the question of accidents on the mines. As the hon. the Minister rightly indicated, one must be grateful that the death rate due to accidents has decreased in the past few years. But now there is also another matter that bothers me in that connection. In the light of the proposed closing of the mines, particularly there on the far East Rand, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he can give us the assurance that the safety measures for the protection of the workers will be applied as strictly at those mines which are closing down as they normally are at other working mines. I do not want to make allegations in this connection, but there is a bit of talk about this matter from time to time. One sometimes gains the impression that a little slackness creeps in when it comes to the application of these safety measures.

I now come to the last matter I want to touch upon. If one looks at the annual report one sees on page 3 that in order to aid pneumoconiosis pensioners and their widows who are old, ill and needy, as far as medical treatment is concerned, a procedure was. in addition, decided on under which such persons could be provided with free medical services by District Surgeons similar to those with which civil pensioners were provided who could not afford medical costs. It has now come to my attention that there are some of these pneumoconiosis pensioners, and also some of their widows, who are expected to pay their monthly medical fund contribution at the mine as in the past. This is taken from the pensions they receive. The other day a case came to my attention of a family from which R8 per month is taken in this respect. These people’s standpoint is rightly that it is very difficult for them to still furnish this considerable monthly contribution to this medical fund. I should now like to ask the hon. the Minister, in the light of what appears here in this annual report, if an arrangement cannot be made to exempt these people from this compulsory contribution which they must pay every month. It might sound like a very unreasonable request, but I do nevertheless wonder whether an arrangement could not possibly be made whereby they are not simply referred to a district surgeon but, particularly with respect to the older people, whereby consideration is given to allowing them to retain their family doctors for the purposes of medical services and that those services then be granted to them free of charge. I am honestly convinced that this minor concession would mean a tremendous amount to these people.

Mr. Chairman, I must say that the House has been extremely surprised to hear the Minister intervene in the debate at this early stage in order to deliver his message to the voters of Brakpan, by trying to drag in some suggestion—he need not look at me in surprise—and express his pious determination to support the rights of the White miners in this country. I do not think that the House has ever listened to such blatant electioneering for many a year. The hon. the Minister knows very well indeed that we have advocated that any change in the labour pattern in this country will only take place in full consultation and through discussions with all recognized registered trade unions in South Africa. The Minister knows that extremely well. He knows, furthermore, that in fact the problem is in his court at the moment. He has to deal with mining development in the homelands and with the opening of fresh mines there. He has to exploit the minerals in those homelands. He has the problem of introducing the indigenous labour of that country to skilled and semi-skilled occupations. That is a problem he will have to take up with trade unions. In fact, this matter was raised last year when the hon. the Minister was told …

May I ask the hon. member a question?

No, it will be too stereotyped. The position is that the hon. the Minister knows that there is a great scarcity of skilled labour in the country. Not only was this pointed out to him last year when he said he was quite satisfied with the situation, but even in this year’s report of the Secretary for Mines for the year ended December 1970 we find that he lays great stress on the shortage of skilled labour in this country in the mining field. He is in the awkward position that he cannot even complete the geological surveys which have been demanded of his department, because of his lack of satisfactory employees. So bad is the position that he admits that at this stage already, there is a backlog of 15 years. He goes on to say very pertinently: “The inability to do so …”, that is to carry out these geological surveys in regard to minerals, … “not only hampers development, but also causes prospecting companies unnecessary and fruitless capital expenditure”. He goes further and says this: “It is clear that unless a satisfactory solution for the geological survey’s personnel problem are speedily found, the development of the country’s natural resources will be seriously hampered and important development projects retarded.” This is in an age when SAFTO is having a special seminar with regard to the question of the export of base metals from this country which it says will be the capital growth of the country in future years in so far as minerals in this country are concerned. It says: “South Africa’s best hone for its exports is to sell base metals.” That very phase, which one of my colleagues, I am sure, will deal with in the course of the debate, is one of the most serious features which the hon. the Minister has to face. This is where he should direct his attention—not to electioneering speeches, but to tell us what steps he is taking to deal with this problem. Did not he himself, when he opened the National Institute for Metallurgy, draw attention to the fact that there was a serious shortage of young men who are entering the fields of mining, for example, in extraction-metallurgy or mineral beneficiation? He knows himself that our universities, of which we only have two providing these courses at the moment, cannot attract sufficient satisfactory students to these departments. Does he not know himself that in his own Vote there is only a small sum of R200 set aside for scholarship bursaries at the University of the Witwatersrand? The maintenance and general expenditure for training schools, in fact, has been reduced by R60 000. Where is the provision the hon. the Minister should have been making in his Vote in order to cope with this particular problem? This is not a case which you can throw at the feet of the private sector, as we are often told we should do in the field of labour. Here is something of which the country should take note. Does he know, for instance—I am sure he knows it—that only 200 students approximately are at the moment being trained in these important fields? A country like Australia, which is very similar to ours with regard to prospecting for and exporting base metals, has over 1 000 students already at ten universities in which they have departments of mines and metallurgy, where they are encouraging students to study in order to equip the country for the future. When a country stands at the brink of such enormous developments as South Africa undoubtedly stands, one would expect the Minister to make a statement of important policy as to how he is going to meet this situation. Then we know that the Chamber of Mines themselves have said that, despite all the talk about gold dwindling in so far as its production is concerned, we will within the next 15 years be short of over 20 000 skilled workers in the mines—White workers, let alone the shortage of another 100 or 150 000 non-White workers in the field of mining. These are facts to which we would like an answer from the hon. the Minister, because these are important matters which certainly deserve attention.

Sir, I would like to draw attention to another aspect with regard to the Vote. I notice that the amount of money that has been provided this year for the low-grade mines is less than last year. It has been reduced by a considerable sum. I would like the hon. the Minister to tell us whether, in view of the fact that there has been this tremendous increase in the price of gold, and the importance to this country of extracting every ounce now that it can, he is going to take some steps with regard to a reduction of R5 million in the assistance to needy mines. I think this is an important factor. I am not being critical at the moment, because, obviously, when the Budget was drawn up, the hon. the Minister was not aware of what was happening or what was to happen to the price of gold. I am a little surprised, though, in that the Minister of Finance always had faith in the fact that the price of gold would increase, and to his great pleasure and extreme surprise, I am sure, it has increased to the remarkable sum that it is now, namely over $50 an ounce. That is something which I think the hon. the Minister should explain to. us, and give us some enlightenment of what is taking place. Furthermore, I think that in view of this remarkable development, in view of the fact that the question of Saldanha Bay is becoming vitally important, and in view of the fact that we have had negotiations with large buyers like the Japanese, this is an occasion when, instead of listening to a tirade, we should rather hear from the Minister what his policy is in regard to mining in general in South Africa. What steps does he intend to take in order to ensure that we can now prepare, for a period of 15 to 20 years ahead, a complete plan to build up what is South Africa’s natural export product, something which will help us to build up our G.N.P., which will help us to maintain our balance of payments, and which will raise the whole level of the South African economy, both for those who live within the economy now, and those who will be here in days to come? This is the sort of story we should like to hear from the hon. the Minister. I think it is time for him to tell us this. I notice, from what he said last year, that whilst he skirted around a number of subjects, including labour and so on, he has not given us any sound and direct policy.

I should like to support the hon. member for Rosettenville with regard to the question of industrial diseases. We are aware that the question of a new pneumoconiosis bill has been in the offing; we are just a little surprised that we have not had an opportunity of seeing a copy of this bill, so that we could study it and contribute our thoughts in this regard. In this way we could assist the Minister with regard to the structure of a bill of this nature. The hon. the Minister knows that over the years it has been the concern of this side of the House that workers should be adequately compensated. We have assisted the department and the Minister by constantly seeking new avenues into which we could direct their thinking, to ensure that sufferers, who have become victims of this disease, should have some improved form of income. This is a disease about which we knew very little at one time, but we are improving our knowledge in this regard; we are, however, not assisting those who have suffered from this disease in days gone by. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to link up with the hon. member for Springs and thank the hon. the Minister for the fine, detailed explanation he gave us in connection with the envisaged legislation he will introduce shortly, or otherwise early next year. We hope and trust that the Act will be a great success. I am not going to follow up on what the hon. member for Jeppes said; the Minister will square accounts with <u>him </u>when he replies.

Today it is my unpleasant task, not to follow up on what someone has said, but to reply to two Press reports. The first appeared in the publication of the Mineworkers’ Union of 19th April, under the heading: “Mnr. Koeks Rossouw het ons gewis baie teleurgestel.” The report appears under the name of the general secretary, Mr. Paulus. Then, Sir, I also want to reply to a letter which appeared in the Western Transvaal Record of 5th May, under the heading “Miners Angry—Rossouw fails to see them in Cape Town”. Sir, if there is one matter which even the Opposition cannot blame me for—and for which I believe no one can blame me—it is the fact that I shall act in the interests of the mineworkers in season and out of season. I believe there is a misunderstanding here, and that I must put this right today. I shall begin by saying that in mid-February I was contacted telephonically by Mr. Arie Paulus, the secretary. He informed me that on 2nd March, at 9 o’clock, he would be having an interview with the Minister of Mines. He also asked me whether the mineworkers’ group of the National Party could give him a hearing at 8 o’clock in the morning. In that same conversation I informed him that unfortunately I would have to offer my excuses. 1st March is municipal election day throughout the Transvaal. On 1st March elections were also held at Stilfontein and Orkney and I have to be there. No less than 90 per cent of the candidates who stood for election in Orkney and Stilfontein on 1st March were mineworkers or persons connected with the mining industry. Sir, I briefly want to put it to you in these terms: In the previous issue of the publication, which I have just mentioned, the issue of 23rd February, Mr. Arie Paulus makes an appeal and states: “Support miners in election on 1st March.” He appeals, in addition, for mineworkers to support their people in the municipal elections. In that same newspaper the local member, who represents the mineworkers in the districts of Klerksdorp, Orkney and the surrounding mines, Mr. Fanie Coetzee, also asked the mineworkers to support their people during the municipal elections. A year ago I already committed myself to that appointment. I committed myself to being in my constituency on that day. That is also how I put it to Mr. Paulus in our telephonic discussion. I told him that I could not be present here on that day, but that I would make arrangements for the deputation to be given a hearing. I immediately contacted the Minister of Mines and he informed me that it was not fitting that we should give Mr. Paulus a hearing before he had given him and his delegates a hearing, advising me however that we could contact them as individual members. I then took it upon myself to contact the various members. I shall mention their names: I mention the name of Mr. Van Wyk, the chairman of our group. I also contacted Dr. Brandt and told him. I also told Dr. Paul Bodenstein, who is not here this afternoon. I also informed Mr. Gielie de Wet. I am mentioning by name these persons who represent large mining constituencies. I also contacted various other members. I shall also mention the names of Messrs. Willie Grobler and Cas Greyling. There are also other members who, like myself, could not be here on that day, but who were busy at some town or other conducting a municipal election and helping their people. I explained all these things to Mr. Paulus, and now I want to say this: It is a pity that he took the very first chance to grab a pen and try to discredit me in the mineworkers’ newspaper. It is also a pity—after I had put the matter to him in these terms—that his representative, Mr. Fanie Coetzee, also tried to discredit me in the Western Transvaal Record which circulates in Klerksdorp and Potchefstroom and in Orkney and Stilfontein.

I am thankful for the results obtained in the discussions the Minister held with the deputation on that day. I am glad we have got to the point where shortly we shall be introducing an amended Act. We must make a great success of the said Act. But today I want to lay at the door of Mr. Arie Paulus—and I also say this in all due responsibility to this House—that it will depend on Parliament whether we pass this Act during this Session, and everyone, on the Government side and the Opposition side, looks forward to this Act being amended. We worked hard to get it this far. Initially this Act could even have been passed this year if he—and now I am mentioning his name—had not boycotted it at the start. Sir, it is a pity that one must cross swords with people that are one’s friends, but unfortunately I must do so. I have here in my hand a memorandum, which I am keeping in my charge, in which the General Secretary of the Mineworkers’ Union condemns the new draft Bill to amend the Pneumoconiosis Act. If he had also co-operated in the beginning, I believe this Act would have been passed this year. But this Act will be passed next year, God willing. It will, as the hon. the Minister informed us, be called the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Act; it will not only be applicable to the mines, but will also include other industries which will fall under this Act in future. Sir, pneumoconiosis is not the only disease in the mining industry. There are also other diseases, as we have heard here today from a doctor. We agree that chronic bronchitis is also one of the causes. It is up to the doctors to convince the Minister and the department that provision must be made for that in the Act. Sir, this Act must be a success. Since we play a leading role throughout the world, we cannot allow this Act to fail again, as the 1956 and 1962 Acts failed.

I do not know why the hon. member for Stilfontein came to this Committee to cross swords unilaterally with the leaders of the trade unions. I doubt whether we will be able to help him with his problems very much. As far as we are concerned, we are having discussions with people; they take place peacefully, and there is mutual confidence, and I hope the hon. member will be able to have his further discussions with the trade unions on the same basis.

f Mr. Chairman, I want to refer briefly, first of all, to the staff position in the Department of Mines. I raise this matter with a great deal of sympathy for the Secretary of the department and for this staff, who have a heavy responsibility at a time when the South African economy needs to be revitalized, when our foreign trade position is in considerable difficulty and when we are all searching for opportunities to redress our balance of payments. It is at a time like this that the Department of Mines is obliged to say that it has not got the staff to do the job that it is required to do. It indicated by implication that because of the vital role it has to play in the development of mining, the inadequacy of staff is, in fact, acting as a brake on the rapid development of mining in this country. These words will be found in pages 1 and 2 of the report. I might add, Sir, as a matter of regret, which I am sure the department shares with me, that we have to debate this important matter on the basis of a 1970 report. Sir, it is true that certain departments are able to produce reports which take us well into the preceding year, that is to say, into 1971 in the case of this year. The Department of Mining does include in its report a good deal of statistics. It is obviously not able to put together all the information which it is necessary for us to have in this report as a basis for a debate in 1972 unless it has the staff and the means to do these things. We read in the report that some three years ago it asked for a five-year review of its staff position. In 1970 the department was informed that the five year programme which it had drawn up could not be implemented because it was merely a first step; and that implementation could not occur until after a review by the Public Service Commission. Now this review by the Public Service Commission was postponed, it was said then in 1970, until 1st April, 1972. I hope that in view of the importance of this matter and the brake that the staff situation is putting on the development of mining in this country, the hon. the Minister will be able to give us the assurance that a review of the staff position is taking place or has taken place and that the measures necessary to equip this department to do its work will be put in hand as soon as possible.

I stress this with particular reference to geological survey. The reason is that the Department of Mines has to do the pioneer work in geological survey. Private enterprise has done a great deal in prospecting in order to chart the future of the mining industry in this country, but because of the high cost of prospecting, private industry can never look ahead for more than about 25—30 years. It cannot carry the high capital costs of geological exploration and prospecting and drilling for more than such a period ahead. A country is safe if indeed raw materials and minerals can be found sufficient to provide for the foreseeable future of about 30 years. If one wishes to plan further ahead and one wishes to decide where to conserve, where to reduce development and where to expand development, it is in fact, through the Department of Mines and its geological division that this future planning and design must be conducted. We regret that they talk in this report of such small matters as one Land Rover being equipped with first rate instruments and that this will be started in 1971. We hope that the Land Rover has got started. In a country like this with its vast size and its vast geological resources, we should have a division of geological survey with a fleet of aircraft to conduct aerial surveys. It should have many Jeeps and Land Rovers on the ground; it should in fact be exploring the country in a far more intensive way and in greater depth than is at present taking place. However, we understand the difficulties of the department. We know that the manpower shortages are universal and we hope that the department, with the Minister’s intervention, will do what it can to remedy this situation as quickly as possible.

In the short space of time available to me, I wish to touch on another specific subject and to seek the Minister’s guidance and to get information from him. This relates to oil exploration. According to the department’s report—and again we have to base our information on the 1970 report—on page 51, it appears that some research is going forward and some exploration is continuing but there is nothing to report, up to that date at any rate, which is truly economic or truly exploitable. We see no new hope in the land surveys being conducted by Soekor, of which this department is the technical adviser; there is nothing to justify any high hopes. We find in the report of the Industrial Development Corporation more recent information. This is what the IDC report for 1971 says:

Soekor: The results of exploration work during previous years indicated that only three areas on land justify further exploration: the Zululand, Algoa and Northern Karoo basins.

They go on to say what they have done and it turns out that very little has in fact been proved which justifies further work. Now Soekor, which leads land exploration for oil in South Africa, has spent upwards of R30 million, or had spent that amount by 1971. It also has extensive participation in oil exploration at sea. I would guess, although the figures are not available, that it has expended in the order of R40 million in the search for oil. This kind of money could well be justified if the prospects continue to be favourable. If the prospects are dwindling, if, in fact, the prospects of finding oil on land are virtually nil, as these reports seem to indicate—I am talking of economic oil—then has the time not come to review our position, to write off our losses, and to decide whether we might not with more advantage spend our capital resources on things which will yield greater results? I have in mind some other mineral resources which could well be developed. I have in mind the matter I raised when I started, namely that our geological survey could well be expanded to conduct exploration in other fields, which are almost certain to yield greater results than the apparently fruitless oil exploration. We share with the Minister his hopes that this most important and strategic material will in fact be found, but let us not waste our years and our millions of rand on a fruitless endeavour. We do not have the information on which to base a decision or an opinion on this matter, and we ask the Minister to tell us what the real position is at the moment and what a realistic assessment indicates we should do, particularly with regard to exploration for oil on land.

Briefly, I would also like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he has any progress to report in respect of the development of atomic energy. I refer particularly to the pilot plant for the enrichment of uranium in this country and, secondly, to the development and choice of a reactor for the first nuclear power plant to be erected in the country. I should like the hon. the Minister to give us an indication, if possible, of the progress made, what kind of economic results can be predicted and what sort of dates he has in mind for bringing both of these two projects into effect. If he has time, I should be grateful if he would also mention to us what progress has has been made in respect of fuel reprocessing. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, this afternoon I should like to express my personal thanks to the hon. the Minister for the assurance he gave us to the effect that next year we are going to obtain revised and consolidated legislation in connection with pneumoconiosis. This will be the fulfilment of a promise made in 1962 when the 1962 Act was introduced. We trust that not only will the shortcomings of the 1962 Act be ironed out, but that, as the Minister promised, the net will be thrown wider so that other diseases, which also occur in mines, can be covered by it. In addition I am particularly glad that he gave us the assurance that the disease schlerodermi would possibly be included under this wider cover. And then I also want to congratulate the Government and the Minister on the far-sighted policy they have adopted in recent years to grant assistance to our marginal profit gold mines. The record price obtained on the market over the past few days is proof that the Government’s confidence in gold was not misplaced and that the effort is now being rewarded. This means certain advantages for the gold-mining industry, for the mine-workers and also for the State. In that connection I want to point out that in: recent years the marginal profit mines received State aid to the tune of R31 500 000 to enable them to mine low-grade ore. This ensured work for 10 000 White mine-workers and 125 000 non-White workers. The gold production of these mines realized about R115 million per year. This was calculated at the official gold price. If a calculation were now to be made with the free market price as a basis, that amount would be in the region of R175 million—as against a total amount of R61 500 000 already spent on the marginal profit mines. This points to only one thing, and that is a far-sighted policy adopted by a good Government.

Thirdly I should like to discuss a small matter with the hon. the Minister. It has been my unpleasant experience during the past year to have had a few of my voters arrested and sentenced as a result of illegal diamond transactions. According to newspaper reports doubts have been raised, in this connection, about the decoy system. Church bodies also expressed doubts about this system. In addition I also want to say that newspaper reports sometimes create the impression that innocent people are exposed to temptation by police traps which subsequently lead to lamentable results for them. Therefore I thought fit to go and find out from the Department of Mines which with the Police, is jointly responsible for the administration of the 1946 Precious Stones Act, what the actual state of affairs is. It was alarming to hear that in the past few years there have been between 500 and 700 per year arrests for contravention of the trade provisions of the Act. Secondly, during the past 12 years uncut diamonds with an overall value of R2 million have been found on persons who have obtained them illegally. These are not diamonds in respect of which traps were set, but diamonds stolen by employees in the course of their work at the mines and diggings. One must accept that only a small percentage of the actual cases in which diamonds were stolen was discovered. Therefore the true amount involved in the illegal diamond trade will amount to many millions of rand. In the first place this activity causes a great loss to the State. In the case of large diamond mines the Treasury receives from 60 per cent to 80 per cent of the profits from the undertaking. In addition, the raw and uncut diamonds exported out of the Republic and South-West Africa are subject to an export duty of 15 per cent and 10 per cent respectively. If the diamonds to the value of R2 million, to which I referred, were not recovered, the State would have lost between R200 000 and R300 000 in export duty. In the second place we must also think of the diggers who struggle to make a living because most diggings have been exhausted, while the possibility of getting profitable new diggings is extremely small. These people deserve the protection of the State, because this is their livelihood, and one cannot allow them to be deprived of their hard-earned incomes by unscrupulous law-breakers. I think that every right-minded person would like to see the illegal diamond trade combated. There can be a difference of opinion as far as the methods are concerned. However, the fact is that it is a difficult matter. A diamond is an article that can easily be hidden, transported and taken out of a country. That makes the policeman’s task that much more difficult. The Police also tangle with unmitigated rogues, people who have a great deal of money and the contacts to sell the goods. The Police assure me, however, that they do not set traps without a good reason. It is only done after reports are received about the person and after the reports have been properly verified. A subsequent watch is kept on such a person’s activities for a long time. Besides, we all know that not everyone is free to buy diamonds, and that ought to be sufficient warning not to take part in similar illegal activities. Those engaged in illegal diamond trading are robbing the State and the producer on a large scale. For that reason one does not want to advocate anything that restricts the actions of the Police, but since the Minister has appointed a commission to investigate the diamond industry, I trust that the commission will also give its attention to this matter, even if only to eliminate the stigma attached to the police trap system.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Virginia, who has just sat down, and the hon. member for Springs, followed a theme which I should like to develop. Before I do that, I should like to express my thoughts as far as the <u>minin</u>g industry is concerned, with reference to pneumoconiosis and other dangers attached to working on the mines. It is well to know that a new Bill will be introduced into this House. It is disturbing to find at this late stage in the mining industry we do have this devastating disease with its effects on the workers. I hope that when the Bill is passed through this House, the miners will receive such compensation as to assist them when they are of no further use for the industry.

The point that I should like to develop is the question of the dying mines. The hon. member for Springs made a point here in regard to the difficulty of absorbing the workers of these mines into other mines. The hon. member for Virginia also drew our attention to the higher price of gold. At this stage I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he cannot bring us up to date in this regard. We are dealing with an outdated report. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether, in the light of the high free price of gold, a review has been made of the position of those mines that may or may not close down. It would appear that a number of our mines that were on the border line with the price of gold at $35 an ounce, will now probably have a completely new lease of life. I think the Government owes it to the country and to the mineworkers to tell us what the future of these mines is. I am fairly certain that a number of the mines on the East Rand and on the West Rand, that were on the verge of closing, may be able to carry on much longer in view of the new higher price of gold. I think the Government should tell the country what the future of these mines is. When a mine dies, unfortunately the towns surrounding that mine die as well. Then an industry has to be built up with great difficulty in an effort to absorb the population, the shopkeepers and so forth, of that town and to make the town viable again. Some towns, of course, never become viable again. I think that at this stage in the mining industry, the Government should make a statement as to what the future of those mines will be. One becomes distressed when one reads in the papers that a certain mine has given notice that it will have to close down in a year or two years’ time. It is disturbing not only to the local population, but to everybody concerned. In view of the new stabilized price of gold on the free market—it seems to be stabilized and it does not seem that it will drop to any extent—I feel that a number of these mines that would have gone down the drain, will have another lease of life. I remember that some time ago, before we had devaluation, the then mining engineer gave the Reef, I think, another seven years of life. That was quite a long time ago. Today we see with the new price of gold what is happening. I feel that we have now come to a new stage where a number of our mines will be able to be saved. I know that the Government has spent a lot of money in order to save the border-line mines. But things have changed and with the new inflow of money from the new gold price, we expect to see a change in the industry.

It is interesting to read in this outdated report that 95 per cent of the revenue of the mines is spent on stores and wages. This goes on from year to year and never changes apparently. I think they only transfer the figure of 95 per cent from one report to the other. This is the major expense of the mines. One can therefore imagine what an effect it has on many other people, other than miners. I want to support the hon. member for Von Brandis in expressing my concern over the cut-back of geological surveys. We are disturbed to find a cut-back in this respect. I feel that a greater amount of money should be spent at this stage on the surveying of our country. From ordinary prospecting we know of the vast mineral resources that do exist in this country. Whether they are payable it is hard to say. There are, however, no two ways about it that the Government is not doing enough in this direction. Even in this report, old as it is, it is disturbing to note the limited research that is being done concerning these vast mineral resources that do exist in the country. We must not only seek to export our ores but must also look to developing them and thereby building up the prosperity of our country. I think the Department of Mines is one of the most important we have in this country. The mining industry achievements have kept the future of this country going over the years and it must be kept up to date. Yet, one has a feeling when one reads this report that this industry is becoming a backwater. One feels that the department itself is leaving it to private enterprise to produce the reports and to obtain information instead of giving private enterprise and the country a lead. One can get very much better information outside than is produced in this particular Report. This is wrong. I think it should be the reverse— the Government should take the lead. While private enterprise is prepared to assist I think the Government should take the lead so that one will not have to read outside reports by other sectors of the industry to find out exactly what is happening.

I would also like to deal with oil research. A lot of money has been spent on this research and I think that most South Africans are disappointed that we have not found oil in our country. I agree with the hon. member for Von Brandis that we might have to give this matter second thoughts. We must have another very good look at our coasts, to see what we can find in our seas. There are no two ways about it that oil companies agree that our future oil supplies will not come from the land, but from the sea. They never expected to find oil off the coast of Great Britain, but today they are finding vast new beds of oil. Whether it is going to pay to exploit these resources, is another thing, but it will keep Britain going. I am fairly certain that if more research is done in this direction, we may get somewhere. It is expensive, but I am fairly certain that everything has not been done as far as this search for oil in the sea is concerned.

The other item I want to deal with is the staff position. Other members have also dealt with this problem. I would like to suggest, notwithstanding what is reported here about the regrading of staff and the extra salaries, that the Minister should give further consideration to making salaries more attractive so that he can recruit the necessary staff in this very important department.

Mr. Chairman, firstly I just want to clear up a misunderstanding. I am compelled to do so. The hon. member for Stilfontein probably misunderstood me when he said that I also went to Carletonville on 1st March in connection with a municipal election. I just want to say that I had absolutely nothing to do with the municipal election in Carletonville. I was in the Transvaal on other business.

I think it is necessary for us to have a general rsum of the whole problem of sink-holes in the Carletonville and far West Rand area.

I think I shall begin by saying that there are five large water compartments. They are the Venterspos compartment, the Bank compartment, the Oberholzer compartment, the Boskop-Turffontein compartment and the Suurbekom-Gemsbokfontein compartment. In the Venterspos compartment are situated the Venterspos mine, the Libanon mine and the Kloof mine. In the Bank compartment are situated the East Driefontein mine, which is a new mine that is being developed, a portion of the West Driefontein mine, which was recently flooded, and another large-scale activity, which has now been threatened by the cave-in, i.e. the large brickworks called Brick or. In the Oberholzer compartment are situated the West Driefontein mine, the Blyvoortuitsig mine and Western Deep Level. The Venterspos compartment is about 44 square km in extent. The Bank compartment is about 117 square km and the Oberholzer compartment about 145 square km. Through the Venterspos compartment run 34 km of roads and 6,1 km of railway lines; through the Bank compartment run 84 km of roads and 27,7 km of railway lines. Through the Oberholzer compartment run 48 km of roads and 11 km of railway lines. For all practical purposes these compartments have already been dewatered, or are in the process of being dewatered. The new mine which the Johannesburg Investment Corporation, or “J.C.I.” as they call it, is establishing, lies in the Suurbekom-Gemsbokfontein compartment. The Elsburg and Western Area mines lie there. The Suurbekom-Gemsbokfontein compartment will not be dewatered. Through certain gravitation measurements they can so regulate their mining activities that it will not be necessary, in the foreseeable future, to mine there and be subject to the danger of a flooding.

In the Bank compartment there are still about 100 inhabitants left—most of the houses have been evacuated. In the Venterspos compartment there are still about 9 000 inhabitants, and in the Oberholzer compartment there are about 72 000. The amount of work done in this area—it is a fairly large area—is tremendous, particularly if we take into account that in the Oberholzer compartment 119 000 gravitational observations have been made. In the small town of Oberholzer alone, with the intention of determining whether it is suitable and safe for building purposes, 2 000 gravitational observations were made. Twenty-two boreholes were sunk to determine whether it is safe. In the Suurbekom-Gemsbokfontein compartment more than 17 000 gravitational observations have been made to date—I am now speaking of March 1972. In this area 1 029 boreholes were sunk by the technical committee. Two hundred and twenty-nine boreholes were sunk at a cost of R119 800. Thousands of not very deep boreholes have been sunk by the mining authorities. With the intention of inserting detectors to supply knowledge of any dangerous displacement of the ground. In addition there are 4 750 levelling points to determine to what extent the land is stabilizing. Water level readings are constantly being taken. Readings are taken at 165 boreholes. As far as building undertakings are concerned the area is divided into two categories. The first category is the “acceptable risk” category, where an owner can improve. The second category is the “non-acceptable risk” category where an owner cannot improve. Under those two categories, if they are again divided up, there are 349 cases in the whole area, out of a total of 1 652, which were acceptable risks. The remaining number, i.e. 1 302, constituted the non-acceptable risks. According to the policy those non-acceptable risks, where an owner cannot improve as a result of the nature of the caveins, must be reimbursed.

I now come to the payments. To date, since the Water Association was established, farm properties of 20 503,8364 ha have been purchased, for the sum total of R10 718 373. Eighty-nine improved urban properties were purchased and 1 504 unimproved urban properties. Since the caveins began there have been 250 sink-holes. Here 29 Bantu were lost, suddenly disappearing under the water together with the big crusher. There was also the family of four, the Oosthuizen family at Blyvooruitzicht and Mr. Nortier there at the tennis courts at Venterspos, who lost their lives. That is the loss of life. I now say that we cannot but commend, and if we want to be realistic, greatly commend, the handling of this whole problem. The development of these sink-holes was a new geological phenomenon as far as densely populated areas are concerned. Sink-holes are unique to dolomite areas. There are hundreds of sink-holes in the whole dolomite belt that stretches from Pretoria down into the Kuruman area. But then we come to those cases where mining activities were taking place and there was a concentration of the population, with the concomitant feelings when such a sink-hole occurred. Since that began, and since the Association was called into being, we cannot but give praise. Firstly for the Government’s initiative; secondly for the technical committee established under the guidance of the Government to take care of the geological and scientific research and findings, and thirdly for the mining authorities.

I think I have now more or less given a sketch of the present situation. We are now saddled there with 20 503,8364 ha of land, which cost R10 718 373. They are all small nieces of land, which were fragmented. Most of those pieces were uneconomic as far as agriculture is concerned. In this connection I should like to suggest an idea today. In that whole area, which includes the towns of Carletonville, Fochville, Randfontein, Westonaria, Potchefstroom, Ventersdorp, Koster, etc., there is not a public holiday resort of any great compass where one can establish a game reserve, for example. There is water, there is land where cultivated vegetation can be planted, and there is space. I want to suggest today that we should consider establishing a large public holiday resort there. Perhaps the Chamber of Mines can be persuaded to do that, since the Government contributed 60 per cent of the amount which it lost in revenue—that is after an amount was also deducted by the Association as working capital. The total amount is about R14 million, and the Government contributed about R7 million. I therefore make this suggestion. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to follow up on what was said by the hon. member for Carletonville. However, I just want to mention that before he rose to speak, only 17 members on the Government side were present here in this House, besides the Minister.

And only six United Party members.

And then this Government wants to suggest that they are the patrons of the mineworkers and that they care for their interests.

I want to talk about pollution in the mining industry and point out that between Nigel and Randfontein on the Witwatersrand, there are approximately 368 mine dumps, of which 95 are sand dumps and 237 slimes dams. The biggest sand dumps cover approximately 76 ha, and the largest slimes dams approximately 200 ha. In the 1970 report it is mentioned that “in order to meet the requirements of the Atmospheric Pollution Prevention Act, 1965, and the Water Act, 1956, the surfaces of the sand dumps and slime dams are shaped and then planted with grass or other suitable types of vegetation. By this means erosion by wind and rain is arrested. Considerable areas have been vegetated and steady progress with the project is being maintained”. I want to ask the hon. the Minister of Mines on how many of these mine dumps vegetation has already been planted; how much is spent on them annually and by what organization the work is done. According to a Press report I saw, approximately R500 000 per year is spent on it. In my opinion the Department of Mines is performing a very good task, but it is not sufficient yet. We know that in order to get the vegetation established, they had to carry out many tests and experiments. In addition, we know that they had to fertilize the barren steep slopes, and that they even had to lay on sprinkler irrigation in order to get the grass established. But the rain still drains the salts, acids and other chemical substances from these mine dumps; they pollute our rivers and there is a layer of silt along all our steams and as far as the Vaal River. Mr. Laburn, the Chief Engineer of the Rand Water Board, said on an occasion that the 70 kilometre long Vaal River barrage was so badly polluted that in some years the water was not suitable for domestic consumption for more than 100 days. The cause of it is acids and undissolved salts which wash down in the tributaries on the Witwaters-rand, drain and accumulate in the Vaal River and increase the acid content above the levels which are suitable even for domestic consumption. The water can hardly be used, except if it is purified at a very high cost. The Rand Water Board has built 50 barrages across the different tributaries of the Vaal. Four officials are employed in a full-time capacity to measure the flow, to take water samples and test them for quality. If they find pollution, they try to trace it upstream. They have found that the pollution originates mainly from the industries and mines. It has been found that mine water pollution is on the decrease, except on the East Rand. There are still numerous mine dumps on the East Rand which are uncovered and which are washed away seriously every year, smother the streams with mine silt and pollute the water with acid. As a solution, Mr. Laburn proposed that all the run-off water from the mines which contains salts and acids, may be drained by channels to a series of separate dams before it reaches the Vaal. This mineralized water may also be pumped from the streams to natural pans on the East Rand, or even to dams which have been constructed without outlets, where the water may then evaporate gradually. The water may still be used for the non-sensitive industries and the dams may be used as pleasure resorts and for boating if the pollution is not too serious. This is already being planned on the coal mines. On page 36 of the report of the Secretary for Mines, he reports as follows—

Sir, we should like to see a similar scheme being applied on the East Rand, so that we may not be held responsible for the pollution of the Vaal River barrage. Furthermore, the Secretary for Mines says—

We should like to know from the hon. the Minister exactly how the money is being spent and what precisely is being done.

The other form of pollution in the mining industry is of mine air by gases and airborne dust. As we have often heard here in the past already it may cause tuberculosis, pneumoconiosis and asbestosis. It has been rigidly controlled for many years already and research is being carried out all the time. For the financial year 1970-’71, R468 600 was voted for research in respect of pneumoconiosis and asbestosis. I should like to know what is being done in order to control the surface asbestos airborne dust which blows down from the different mine dumps. At the asbestos mines around Kuruman in the Northern Cape, there are numerous dry, denuded mine dumps which pollute the air. After many years, asbestos dust can cause a certain type of lung cancer known as mesothelioma. Various cases are known where adults have contracted lung cancer after they have moved away from the asbestos area, where they had perhaps played on these mine dumps as children.

Lastly, Sir, I should like to make a plea for the small tiger’s eye mines which one finds situated on small farms in the asbestos mountains in the Northern Cape which are often exploited by private individuals. The export to overseas countries is restricted. In the past the small stone polishing works at places such as Niekerkshoop, Kuruman, Postmasburg and even Prieska served as a good market. [Time expired.]

I am sorry that the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, started on the tone in which he did. Unfortunately I shall have to refer him to the fact that those mine dumps of which he spoke and which pollute the surrounding areas to such an extent, were in fact placed there by the United Party in their time. They were placed there even in the time of the old United Party. They have a long history, but the tragedy of it is that the United Party did nothing during its rgime till 1948 to combat this pollution.

Where would you have placed the mine dumps?

The hon. member must not try to blame the National Party, because if there is one party which has in fact always borne the future in mind as far as this matter is concerned, namely of combating pollution, it has been this very party since 1948. Nowhere in any Budget in the time of the United Party, or even of the old South African Party Government, can you point out an item in a Budget which concerned the combating of this pollution of water and air as a result of mine dumps, etc. But as far as I can see, at the moment it is to a large extent a matter for the Chamber of Mines, which in fact operates under the supervision of the State Mining Engineer, and I believe this matter is in fact being given and will be given the necessary attention. The hon. member also spoke of the pollution of water. It is the position, of course, that over the years it has increased steadily. One gets a type of stone, especially the pyrite, in the rock formation, and if it is exposed to the air and oxidizes, this oxidation later forms sulphuric acid which is washed down the rivers when it rains. Of course, you will realize, Sir, that if a mine dump has been there since the Anglo-Boer War, for example the big mine dump at Randfontein, it is a big task to combat the formation of acid and on such a large mine dump, and as erosion takes place, more and more acid is formed all the time. As a result of oxidation, the acid increases all the time, and if one takes all the mine dumps on the entire Central Rand and on the East Rand, one would realize the extent of this problem. But this is not a matter which we should discuss under this Vote, and in fact the hon. member wasted our time by raising it here, because it comes under the Water Affairs Vote.

Furthermore, in regard to the pollution of the streams on the Witwatersrand, I merely want to say here again that when the United Party was in power nothing was done to combat this pollution of our water streams around the Witwatersrand and Pretoria.

Does that pollution not fall under Water Affairs as well?

Yes, it should be under Water Affairs. Surely I have said so. The other point which the hon. member raised, was the question of tiger’s-eye mines and protection in that regard. This is also a matter which has already been dealt with by the National Party Government, and as far as I can remember, since the commencement of his term of office, the hon. the Minister has appointed a commission of inquiry and the matter has been given considerable attention; so that what the hon. member said here is, in my opinion, in fact no constructive contribution to the debate.

But I want to adopt a more pleasant tone and deal with an aspect mentioned here in regard to the geological staff. While the United Party was in power, I was an official of the Department of Mines for 10 years, specifically a member of the Division Geological Survey, and I want to say that members opposite do not appreciate the problems. I want to refer to the hon. member for Jeppes, who tried to confuse the professional staff of the Department of Mines with the White trade union workers. He executed a neat political manoeuvre here in order to dodge the point the hon. the Minister had made here in regard to the relations between the Government and the White labourers on our mines and particularly with reference to the members of the mine trade union and the protection which the National Party gives them and which the Minister had emphasized. It is for the sake of our mining industry that that protection is given. Hon. members may realize for themselves what the position would have been if that protection for which our people shot each other dead in 1922, did not exist. We asked for that protection and in 1924 and subsequently the National Party gave it to our White workers in our mining industry. It brought stability in our mining industry. No person in the world can want to deny that we brought about that labour peace in the mining industry. We have had labour peace especially since the National Party came into power. It was brought about by the fact that we afforded our White employees in this industry protection. This is the aspect which the Minister proved very clearly here.

Then the hon. member for Jeppes came along and referred to the report of the Department of Mines and said there was a shortage of the different professional people and asked why the Minister did not do something about it. The shortage of professional staff in the Department of Mines is a chronic phenomenon. It was the position when the United Party was in power and it will remain so in the distant future as well. The people in the Government departments who have had technical and professional training, are able to earn better salaries outside the Public Service. That is why a certain degree of perpetual staff shortages arises. In my time, when I personally resigned from the Public Service in 1946, I earned double the salary outside the Public Service than I received as a geologist in the Public Service. From this hon. members will gather why there is in fact always a shortage in the Public Service.

I want to point out the other facet in regard to prospecting now. The hon. members opposite do not realize the problems attendant upon prospecting. For example, we may consider the drawn-out process of prospecting on the Witwatersrand formation, which is a gold-bearing formation. In this regard I want to refer specifically to the prospecting on the West Rand. The first borehole was sunk shortly after the Anglo-Boer War where the present Venterspos Mine is situated. This mine was established there only in 1936, when production work started. There was a period of 36 years in which prospecting was done. Of course, it did not take place continually because in the meantime capital was also invested and prospecting was done on the East Rand which resulted in a period of non-activity on the West Rand. Of course, these problems are applicable to our search for oil as well. It will most certainly take a long time still. For example, I think of prospecting which was done in respect of base metals at a specific place where, for example, 30 boreholes were first sunk before success was achieved with another borehole which then led to further prospecting. Hon. members will understand that if the boring is not done on a large scale, prospecting may take a very long time. The position is such that when, for example, boring takes place for oil, only one or two boring machines are used, and not 50 or 60 large boring machines. Only when a positive result has been achieved, of course, can the extent of the boring be expanded, because then there will be justification for further prospecting. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I listened with a certain amount of amazement to the hon. member for Etosha who apparently holds the United Party responsible for the mine dumps on the Witwatersrand. I found it rather difficult to understand his logic in that regard, but perhaps he could tell us where those mine dumps and mines should in fact have been placed. Is it part of his party’s policy that they should be moved to one of the new embryo Bantustans?

You did nothing to combat the effects of those mine dumps.

It is altogether wrong to say that nothing was done, because in those days the Department of Mines was constantly in contact with the Chamber of Mines in regard to this matter. If the hon. member went back into the history, he would find that over the past few years the Chamber of Mines has appointed a special unit which should investigate, inter alia, the planting of vegetation on the mine dumps. However, as my hon. friend rightly pointed out, the problem is much greater than this, and at present this Government is not doing enough. As he himself indicated, the problem is worsening as the mines become older. The Government has been in power now for well over 20 years; in other words, the problem is worse to the extent of 20 years than it used to be.

The mine dumps existed in your time and you did nothing about them.

Another interesting aspect which I noticed today, is that the great friendship, brotherhood and comradeship which as always existed in the past between the Government and the mineworkers, is dying off somewhat. This is the conclusion I had to come to after listening to the speech made by the hon. member for Stilfontein. He criticized certain members of the Mineworkers Union, and one wonders what in fact went wrong there. It really seems to me as if the mine-worker is starting to realize that there is only talk and no action with that Government and that the actual friend of the mineworker and of the ordinary worker in South Africa is not to be found in that party, but in this party. Even more interesting is the fact that my hon. friend for Carl-tonville and the hon. member for Stilfontein cannot agree on where they were on a certain important date and that there was even a little dissension between them in regard to a very important meeting which they should have attended.

Your wife does not always know where you are either.

Very well, I shall tell the hon. member where I was on 4th March if he will tell the Committee where he was on that particular day.

Tell us something about the trade unions.

I want to raise two little matters in this Houe briefly. The first is in connection with the sink-holes about which the hon. member for Carlton ville spoke. The other matter—I shall deal with it if I have any time left—is in regard to air pollution by the waste products of atomic installations, namely atomic radiation, etc.

Tell us something about the trade unions.

About the trade unions?

Yes, about the affiliation of Bantu with the Mineworkers Union.

I believe in the trade union movement in South Africa, and I believe in the work they do for all workers, including those on the mines. I believe the mineworkers will know best and that through negotations with them by a sympathetic Government, a good solution will be found. That is our policy. What is your policy in that regard? This is my reply to the hon. the Minister’s question.

The hon. member for Carltonville pointed out the problem of the sink-holes, and it would appear that he, as a great optimist, apparently thinks the Government should be given high praise in this regard. I am not so sure. I should like to hear from the Minister the most recent figure in regard to the number of sink-holes there were last year. If I remember correctly, the figure the year before last was 60. I hope the figure was less last year and that he is able to divulge reassuring figures in that regard. These sink-holes remain a major problem with which we have to contend. If I understood the hon. member for Carltonville correctly, he wants both a holiday resort and a game reserve to be established in that area where the subsidences have taken place. Does he think it is a practical example? Is that what he proposed?

The whole area has already been consolidated. You do not know what you are talking about.

Sometimes I

have some doubt whether the whole of that large area in which hundreds of subsidences have occured, has already been consolidated. It would demand a very penetrating investigation before one could determine whether that area could in fact be used for that purpose. I do not want to allow myself to be distracted by these matters. In my opinion, the problem of the sink-holes has not yet been solved at all. Recently again we had the case of a collapse on a sports field near a school.

It had already been fenced off.

Yes, I made a note of it that that area had already been fenced off. I have it here in my notes. I want to say that it was fenced off. That particular piece of land is not dangerous. But I want a full assurance from the hon. the Minister this afternoon that after a while a penetrating investigation will again be instituted in the immediate vicinity in order to make 100 per cent sure that that area at a school and in the residential areas are 100 per cent safe and not 99 per cent or 95 per cent safe. In the past the hon. the Minister gave us a comparable assurance in regard to the Western Areas primary school. Does that assurance still hold? The occurence of these sink-holes unfortunately continues. As long as they occur, we shall want an account from the hon. the Minister, who is the responsible person, every year in regard to the combating of those unfortunate happenings.

The second item I wish to discuss in this Committee today is the question of atomic pollution with the growing use of atomic energy in South Africa today. I believe that the use of nuclear energy is a great and magnificent boon to mankind. It will be the fuel energy of the next century. I believe that we must make full use of it, but together with the use of this nuclear energy, there is this ever-present danger of atomic pollution by radio-active material in the sky, in the water, in the ground and in the animals and in the milk we get from the animals that feed on plants which can be contaminated with radio-active material. We are only on the threshold of the development of nuclear energy in this country. I am glad to see from the 1970 report by the Atomic Energy Commission—I wish we could have had the 1971 report—that they are taking steps—these seem to me to be significant steps—to establish the amount of radio-activity in the air, in the water and so forth in the vicinity of Pelindaba and also in our atmosphere as a result of the atomic explosions and the thermo-nuclear explosions we have had during the past years. If we are to make full use of nuclear energy in South Africa one day, we shall have to make the combating of radio-activity in our soil and our food one of our major tasks in the fight against pollution that we have in this country.

We shall need nuclear energy, for instance. for the desalination of sea-water. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us how far the investigation that he started in 1966 has now progressed. We know there has been some progress. He told us about a committee that was appointed in those years. We should like to know what has been done in that respect.

Radio-active pollution can have an incalculable effect on the human being. It can cause cancer; it can affect the genes and the chromosomes of the human being. It can result in unfortunate mutations. It causes dangers. We saw that in the horrors of the atomic bomb. We remember the story of the Japanese trawler and what happened to the unfortunate crew of that particular vessel. Some radio-active material has a life of many hundreds of years. It is essential that when this atomic waste is being disposed of, we should think of this matter. There are strontium and cadmium isotopes being spread in South Africa today which have a lifetime of 600 years. These wastes have to be stored. Are they being stored satisfactorily today? We hear that they are being stored in the ground, under the earth, but we also hear that they are being stored in the earthquake belt in the United States of America. There leakages occurred after twenty years, while these wastes are only safe after 600 years. Therefore I say that it is now the time for a considered programme in this regard. [Time expired.]

It is praiseworthy that the hon. the Minister could announce this afternoon that he is already engaged in—that is how I want to put it— far-reaching legislation dealing with our mineworkers, whom all of us in this House are concerned about. It is far-reaching in the sense that we are getting away from the idea of the old Pneumoconiosis Act we had in the past, and that this now deals with industrial diseases. In other words, a wider spectrum of the health position of the mineworker is now being affected. It is also praiseworthy that the Minister is continually negotiating with all interested parties in this process, in particular with the Mineworkers’ Union. I think this Government has a very good record as far as its negotiations and consultations with the Mineworkers’ Union are concerned, including those in this respect. This Government has always been approachable as far as the mineworkers are concerned, because they are our people, and has always been prepared to negotiate with them about matters of interest. The hon. the Minister made a statement here and the hon. member for Jeppes replied to it. I am glad the hon. member is present in the House again. He said it is also the United Party’s policy to negotiate, from time to time, in connection with certain matters such as labour relations and the amendment of mine regulations. I want to tell the hon. member that the United Party is not in a position to negotiate with the Mineworkers’ Union.

Who says so?

I say so. I am going to prove this statement.

I challenge you to prove it.

I shall prove this statement. If I were a mineworker and a United Party wants to come along and negotiate with me on the basis that the colour bar should be removed in our relationships in South Africa, I would not speak to him. The United Party is in no position at all to negotiate with the mineworkers. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Yeoville said on several occasions that the Bantu should be placed in a position where he can sell his labour on the free market, so too in the mining industry. If there is one thing the mineworkers are really jealous of it is the colour bar which this Government has guaranteed them since 1924. The United Party cannot speak to them, because they will always reject that party.

I now come to a second aspect I want to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention. The hon. member for Salt River also referred to it. It relates to the question of goldmining—and all mining in South Africa—being a vanishing asset. The hon. member said that the Minister and the Government should make a statement at some time or other about what the position is in respect of mines that cease operations, the danger existing that ghost towns could develop. That was more or less the gist of the hon. member’s argument. I just want to point out that last year the hon. member for Odendaalsrus also spoke about this matter. I want to tell the hon. member for Salt River that we, who know the East Rand, know that there are several mines that have already ceased production and that East Rand towns like Springs, Brakpan—and I want to emphasize Brakpan—and others, are still progressing and expanding, despite the fact that many of the gold mines there are no longer in production. Where one does encounter a problem in this connection, it is true, is in the more rural areas where there is not the same high degree of industrial development as in the Witwatersrand area. Here I want to refer to one of the richest, newest goldfields in the Eastern Transvaal, i.e. the Evander area. Sixteen years ago a new town sprang up there. It is a limited mining field where there are only three mines, i.e. Kinross, Winkelhaak, Bracken and Leslie. This very fine town is solely dependent on the goldmining industry in that area. We are particularly grateful that there has been an improvement in the price of gold. This perhaps gives us an opportunity to be able to plan further if this problem develops in future. One of the most disrupting and demoralizing stories in these towns involves people asking what happens to these towns when the goldmines cease production. This creates frustration as far as private initiative is concerned and the danger that proper development cannot take place. This ’specific town was established at the time under the supervision of the then Natural Resources Development Council, and it was borne in mind that other industries must systematically also develop so that the town will grow systematically and in future be less dependent on goldmine development. I think it is essential for us to reassure the people in some way or other, particularly in such towns in the far-off rural areas, where one does not have this intensive industrial development ore has on the Witwatersrand.

Another matter I should also like to discuss with the Minister is the development of our coal reserves. I want to say at once that we are looking forward to the report of the Commission of Enquiry into the Coal Resourses in South Africa. The terms of reference of this commission are chiefly to report on the conserving of coal, bearing in mind the existing sources of energy in South Africa, and on the best way in which mining can take place with a view to optimum utilization. I say that we look forward to this report. It can probably also be discussed profitably in this debate, because there are quite a number of aspects in connection with mining which are certainly receiving urgent attention. I see many of these mines. There are 14 of them in my constituency. I therefore know what is going on. We have problems in connection with mining, and here I am referring particularly to the burning of these slag heaps. There are a large number of slag heaps that burn when the waste coal is dumped in the open air. This causes pollution due to certain gases released upon combustion. I am thinking, for example, of carbon dioxide. Many of the local communities are complaining about this problem. It causes air pollution. We would be glad if the Minister could explain to us what can be done in this connection.

I can also mention that we have the problem of surface subsidence in my area, where there are no proper supports and stope works underground and where the surface has consequently caved in completely. Certain areas must be set aside because they are regarded as dangerous areas. The other problem that develops as a result of mining in this area, is the question of water pollution. It is gratifying to see that the Natal Coal Owners’ Association has laid down certain codes of practice in connection with the pollution of water by coal mining in the Tugela catchment area. I now want to tell you that this mining area in the Eastern Transvaal lies chiefly in the catchment area of the Loskop Dam. It is very essential for us to have a similar system in the Transvaal and that discussions take place with the Natal coal owners to see whether they cannot lay down similar codes for this area as well to prevent unnecessary pollution from taking place there. We look forward with great expectation to the report of this commission, because some or other statutory provision will probably be made for the mining and the conservation of coal, also bearing in mind other factors such as water, surface damage, etc. I am thinking, for example, of the problem of the establishment and development of townships. We know that coal mining is chiefly shallow mining and that there are tremendous problems as far as building restriction matters are concerned. Witbank is a specific example of that. Someone said one should fly over Witbank to see how the town is laid out along the reefs. These are matters we shall have to give very serious attention to in the mining of coal. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am standing up to reply to the hon. member for Orange Grove in connection with the doubts he expressed about my proposal concerning the area of 20 503,8364 ha that was bought up. I did say that I proposed the possible establishment of a game reserve and a public holiday resort. The hon. member has certain doubts about that. I now want to tell the hon. member that he must stop talking about things he has no knowledge of. I want to mention three facts to him in connection with that area. Firstly, a large portion of that area was not bought up as a result of sinkholes, but as a result of dewatering and because of the fact that farmers previously obtained water from the Wonderfontein and Bankoog mines at a rate of 21 million gallons per day. That is why the association decided to buy up the land. It was not as a result of sinkholes, but as a result of dewatering. The second fact is that that land is still being inhabited today. The mines themselves carry out farming activities; the mines lease them to other people. It is not as terribly dangerous a business as the hon. gentleman wants to imply. Thirdly, the process of geological consolidation in that area has already made considerable progress. I think that no person with any sound intelligence would rush in like a bull at a gate and simply establish a holiday resort without linking this up with careful geological surveys and determinations. The hon. member must be careful, and if he gets up to speak here in the House he must make sure of his facts. I find it so strange that some of our people can sometimes talk such nonsense, and he is one of them.

In the second place—I have a very limited amount of time—I want to say that I think it is in the general interest for us to know that about a year ago some of the National members of the House of Assembly made suggestions to the Minister about whether a mediating committee could not again be appointed on the initiative of the Government, as was the case when salary were being negotiated, so that they can assist as mediators between the Chamber of Mines and the mineworkers’ trade unions. The Minister was in touch with them and obtained the following reply from Mr. Ken Du Preez—I think he is the chairman of the Co-ordinating Council of Mineworkers’ Trade Unions (translation)—

I am saying this so that all the mineworkers can know exactly what the position is.

With reference to what the hon. member for Carletonville has just said, I want to say it is true that representations were made to me, specifically by inter alia Nationalist members of the House of Assembly and the mining group of our caucus, representations to the effect that in regard to pensions, in contrast to pneumoconiosis pensions, mediatory action could possibly be taken and assistance be granted to the mining trade unions in their talks with the Chamber of Mines. I was not reluctant to consider something of that nature, provided that such a request was to be made by the mining trade unions themselves. The reply which was read out by the hon. member for Carletonville, is the reply I had received an made available to every member of the House of Assembly for his own use. In fact, in the course of the talks we have had up to now on the new legislation concerning industrial diseases, the question of life pensions has never cropped up. I think it is proper for the two matters to be separated from each other completely, namely compensation for an industrial disease and a life pension received by a person upon his retirement from his ordinary work. What is more, in the latest talks and negotiations between the mining trade unions and the Chamber in regard to an improvement in earnings and other benefits, and also in their talks in regard to Republic Day—which, to my joy, will now be a full public holiday for our mineworkers—they also regarded and used this matter of pensions as an integral part. I think this is a most healthy situation, and I appreciate it that the mining trade unions are jealous of the fact that this is a matter which they themselves are handling with their employers.

Sir, I have risen to reply to this debate, which has actually been an amazing debate, in which general matters of interest were raised by us, and quite rightly so. But the decisive, cardinal matter to the mineworker in South Africa is the protection, in the first place, of the colour bar and, in the second place—I am almost tempted to say the sacredness—of his trade union. Now, hon. members opposite said they would consult with them on those matters, and they would speak to them. But on what basis will they do so? They are going to speak on the basis of affiliation of the Bantu, who have now been organized in the mining industry. They are going to speak to them on this basis, namely that they are speaking with one voice. In that regard the hon. member for Bethal is quite correct—not one single trade union and not one single mineworker will say one single word to those hon. members on that basis.

What discussions did you have with them about the Bantu areas?

I am coming to that. I think the hon. member for Jeppes mentioned that. I want to say that the matter has been dealt with, and there is no more to be said about it. It is completely over and done with. It has been put into practice. As far as I am concerned and as far as the mine workers’ union is concerned, except for the practical implementation, there will be no more discussion.

You know it cannot be implemented.

Do not talk nonsense. It is being implemented today at the Atok mine. There have been only three requests for exemptions. In the one case the whole thing is settled; it is being implemented for the next three years as an experiment. The other is still under consideration, and in the case of the third one, it has withdrawn its application. The whole thing is completely finished; there is no reason to talk about it any more.

Why do you not tell Parliament about it?

I am telling you now.

Tell us the details.

I shall tell you in detail when I reply to you.

*Mr. Chairman, I shall come to the hon. member for Jeppes as far as this matter is concerned. As though he is so concerned about the Bantu homelands! By all appearances he seems to me to be a Japie man.

I want to start with the hon. member for Springs, who put a number of important questions to me. He apologized for having to leave. I quite understand this, but I am giving him these replies because he is a member who takes a special interest in mining, at all times, and because he had the courtesy to inform me that he would not be able to be here. He referred to the closing of the office of the mining inspectorate at Springs, and expressed his thanks for the work that had been done there. I may just add that I am grateful for that appreciation that was expressed to my officials. On 1st April this office, this mining inspectorate, was moved to Rustenburg, where major developments are taking place. Major developments are taking place in that whole area, up to Thabazimbi and beyond. Hon. members will appreciate that the office there is a properly established one if I point out that at the moment, notwithstanding the recession in the platinum market, there are still 82 000 workers who are being served by that office.

While mentioning the platinum market, I may just refer to the latest announcements in this regard in the U.S.A. Before the end of 1974 all motor cars which are on the roads in the U.S.A. must be properly provided with a certain apparatus for purifying exhaust gases. It is highly probable that this will imply a revival for the platinum market, since this apparatus, which is considered to be the most effective one today—other inventions may still be made—must contain a small quantity of platinum. I say it is a small quantity, but if one thinks of the large number of motor vehicles on the roads of the U.S.A., there will be a large market for platinum products from South Africa in that country. I may also add that I think we in South Africa will have to give serious consideration to whether we should not follow America’s example in regard to our motor vehicles.

Then the hon. member spoke about an important matter, and that is the problem experienced by mineworkers—especially on the East Rand, where more and more mines are closing down, and especially mineworkers who have reached an advanced age —in finding other employment. Let me say in this regard that the mining companies are doing a tremendously great deal to have them placed at other mines. But, at the same time, the same mining companies have a major interest in industries in this same area. They are also placing these people in these industries, and in this regard the Department of Labour is also lending a hand. An interesting thing has now happened at Rustenburg, where, as a result of the temporary recession in the platinum industry, approximately 1 600 or 1 700 White mineworkers could not be retained as employees. A very small number of them went to other mines, especially gold mines. The rest of them found their way into industries, where, as hon. members know, there are many opportunities for employment. I want to give hon. members the assurance that the department will, as it did in the past, continue to do its duty by giving these people every possible assistance and advice so that they need not unnecessarily leave the area in which they have established themselves and which they would not like to leave.

Then the hon. member made the request that the precautionary measures applicable to these mines which are to be closed down in the years that lie ahead, should not be relaxed. I want to give the hon. member for Springs the assurance that this will not happen, but that, on the contrary, it is quite likely that the precautionary measures in such a mine will be tightened up. There are various reasons why the precautionary measures in such a mine must in fact be tightened up. I am thinking, for instance, of the pumping of water, etc.

The hon. member also made the request that mineworkers who retired on pension and who were obliged to go on making contributions to the miners’ sick funds, had to be exempted from doing so. I want to tell the hon. member that they are not obliged to make contributions. They have a free choice in this regard. However, as the Minister of Mines I want to give those people retiring on pension the advice to keep up their membership of the sick fund, if they can afford to do so, because this gives them access to the private doctor to whom they have grown accustomed over all these years as members of the miners’ sick fund; it gives them access to specialist services, and it gives them access to all the other benefits connected with the sick fund. I do not think that there is a sick fund which holds greater benefits for its members than in fact the miners’ sick fund does. Therefore I want to give them the advice to retain their membership even if they should find it difficult to do so. As regards those people who have not retained their membership, who are not members of the sick fund, we have made arrangements for their needs in respect of medical examinations and medicines to be catered for by the district surgeon, just as is done in the case of any other pensioner, and, of course, they are also free to report to the outpatients’ departments of the provincial hospitals. Through the Department of Health, in conjunction with the Department of Justice, I shall once again bring to the notice of magistrates the fact that in future it will not be necessary for those people to obtain the permission of the magistrate first, that they may receive the necessary treatment upon producing the pension card which they already have—I am referring to persons receiving pneumoconiosis benefits—and that they need not obtain a certificate at the magistrate’s office.

The hon. member for Jeppes referred to the question of Bantu employed in the mining industry in the Bantu homelands. He wanted to know why we did not consult with the mineworkers’ unions. That is a problem that he must take up with the trade unions. Let me say to the hon. member that he is behind the times. It is not a matter for me to take up with the trade unions. That is over and done with, as I have said. I had prolonged discussions the year before last and at the beginning of last year for the last time, not only with the executive committee of the Mineworkers’ Union, but with the full body of, I think, between 50 and 60 members, for a full day, and the whole thing has been thrashed out. We have had three requests for exemptions, one from the Atok Mine in Sekukuniland. At that mine 12 Bantu are at the moment employed in certain jobs Which they did not do before. The regulations have been drafted and are in operation, and it has been done in consultation with the Mineworkers’ Union and also with the Chamber of Mines, and I may say that we have also asked them now to translate these regulations into the Tswana language, because it is one of the regulations, and also the policy of the company, that these Bantu must be a member of that particular nation. I may say this exemption is for three years. As I see it now, there is no reason why it should not be extended, but we thought three years was a good time, seeing that this is the first time that it is being done. There was also a second request from the Griqualand Exploration Company, but this is still under consideration. I have laid down certain procedures to be followed, and I think in the near future we will also be able to give a final answer in that respect.

Have you consulted with them?

Yes, of course there has been consultation. But let us get this straight. There was consultation in so far as the practical application is concerned. As far as the policy is concerned, there is no consultation whatsoever, but consultation has been done, and the Government stands or falls by the policy of the Bantu doing more and more responsible work.

Is the training done by the White mineworkers?

Not necessarily by the mineworkers. As far as training is concerned, we insist that a certain training must be given to our satisfaction. Wo gives the training, and how it is done, is not a matter for the Government at all. This I have made clear over and over again also to the Mineworkers’ Union. It is a matter of agreement between the mine management and the Mineworkers’ Union, and up to now it has created no problem whatsoever.

Then the hon. member referred to the reduction in the allowance to marginal mines. I might tell the hon. member that there is a lesser amount on the Estimates for this year. That is because of the rise in the price of gold. When the Budget was framed the price of gold was of course not nearly as high as it is today. I should like to say to the hon. member that up to now a round figure of some R70 million has been spent since 1964 to assist these mines. Furthermore, the amount of gold produced by these mines from 1967 to 1971—that is the only figure I have—is a round R400 million. Furthermore, in 1967 the production of these assisted mines contributed 7,2 per cent of the total gold production in our country; last year it was 15,9 per cent and one would expect, of course, with the rise in the price of gold and with the lower-grade ores being able to be mined now, that perhaps this figure will go up. Then I may just point out in conclusion that as the result of the assistance to these mines, no fewer than 10 000 Whites and 110 000 Bantu have been able to work in these mines, whereas if the assistance was not given, the work would not have been available.

*Then the hon. member said we should “come with a complete plan” in regard to our mining industry in South Africa. Let me tell the hon. member that we do not do things that way. We do not come forward with blueprints, because mining in South Africa is mainly vested not in the hands of the State, but in the hands of private initiative, and let me say that this is where it should remain.

What about the shortage of technical people?

I am coming to that in a moment. But that is where it should remain. I think that in regard to prospecting and mining they proved in the past that South Africa could rely on the mining bodies to carry on mining operations in South Africa properly, to their advantage and to the advantage of the State.

The days when you wanted to take over the mines, are past now.

But, surely, Albert has left; he has after all joined you now. [Interjections.] But the State does in fact have a duty in regard to a number of things —in the first place, in regard to metallurgy.

I think the hon. member knows that the National Institute for Metallurgy is an institution which is second to none in the world. I do not think the National Institute for Metallurgy can complain that the Government does not give it attention and all possible assistance. They are doing grand work, and on that scale, with their new buildings going up on the Rand, in Randburg, I am sure that their contribution, for which we are in a certain respect responsible, will increase in the years to come.

I am concerned with the question of personnel.

I am coming to that.

*In the second place, in regard to the refining of our minerals, the Government has to lay down a policy, and that policy is clear for all to see. There is not a single mining house which is not aware that the State is in earnest about our minerals having to be refined to an ever greater extent. We are also aware that this is not something which one can do overnight, and that the refining of our minerals should always take place on an economic basis. But in examining the various reports of the various mining houses, Sir, you will see that they are continually proceeding with the process of refining minerals and, I may as well add here, the location, if this is possible, of these refining works in the areas where the mines are closing down, i.e. the refining of minerals which do not necessarily come from a mine in that area. In this way one has, for instance, the refining of minerals from Rustenburg, which is being done in Springs, and which, in turn, has brought more opportunities for employment to that area. As far as the exports of iron ore are concerned, I may also say that it is the intention that some or other processed form of iron ore should be exported, not necessarily the pig iron only, and that all contracts will be concluded on that basis.

The hon. member is also concerned about the personnel. What personnel? There are two aspects to the matter. The one is the State personnel, especially of the Geological Survey Division. I may tell the hon. member that there is an improvement. But, as the hon. member for Etosha rightly said, this is a chronic situation which one has in regard to State personnel and which we have had all these years. In the second place, it is an unfortunate fact in South Africa that a small number of students are interested in geology. The bursaries are available. The hon. members wanted to know why the provision on the Estimates had been reduced. This is so because we have learned from experience that these people simply do not come forward, and surely there is no point in making provision for something if no use is made of it. But let me also tell the hon. member that we in the department are doing everything possible, also recruitment abroad, to obtain people to fill these posts. You should not be confused by the figures you sometimes see, for these figures show the number of permanent posts filled. There are many posts that have been filled on a temporary basis. In other words, the work is being done. The work is being done in an excellent manner, but a greater amount of work can be done if only we have the people. Then I must also say that the training at our State mining schools has been improved to a considerable extent and adapted to the new circumstances; the mining industry itself sent two missions abroad in an attempt to recruit personnel. In that regard we are also experiencing a problem, namely that approximately half the students leave the State mining school before they have qualified. And the reason is obvious, namely the fact that South Africa is such a prosperous country and that it is doing so well A person may leave by one door and enter by another and perhaps get a better job. Then there is another point I want to mention in regard to the manpower we have. Hon. members should not forget that if we did not have the legislation we do have, and if we did not take the steps we are in fact taking, also on the part of the Government, in order to have labour peace in South Africa, the numbers in the mining industry would have been much smaller. We still have sufficient numbers for keeping this industry strong because a policy is being followed in South Africa in terms of which the worker feels that he is being protected while working in the mining industry. The hon. member should not lose sight of this factor.

Then the hon. member for Stilfontein mentioned the question of a dispute or misunderstanding that was supposed to exist. I am sorry that it does exist, but I think it is a good thing that he put the matter straight. In this regard I want to say in general that I do not think it is correct or desirable for the Mineworkers’ Union to claim that it has fathered this legislation. This is simply not true. They co-operated, but at first there was opposition. Initially we asked them to prepare legislation, and they said it had to be done by the department. Not only during last year’s parliamentary session and prior to that, but also during the recess, the mining group of our caucus met in Pretoria to be of assistance to me in regard to this legislation. They were not only of assistance—I think I may as well say this now—but also very difficult because they wanted the very best for the mineworker in South Africa.

Why did the hon. the Minister not send a copy of that to the chairman of the mines group of the Opposition?

Let me tell the hon. member very clearly that I do not discuss any matter with a group of the United Party caucus.

But you send Bills to us.

That is a procedural matter. Yes, but it is available; you can get it.

We have seen it already; we have also had ours.

So, what are you complaining about? However, I want to make it very clear that this is not my procedure. I do not think it has ever been the procedure. I want to make it very clear that outside organizations should appreciate that a caucus group—whether it is a mining group, a tobacco group, or whatever—is subject to the rules of the caucus. The function of such a caucus group is not—in fact, it has been forbidden to do so—to conduct negotiations as a group with any organization outside the caucus. If a group of M.P.s are interested in mining, wants to consult in season and out and day and night with the Mineworkers’ Union or whoever, it is not only a good thing, but also desirable. But the mining group as such should, just as is the case with all sorts of groups, be seen as an integral part of the caucus which has its function inside the caucus and not outside it.

That is real gagging!

Real gagging? But, surely, I have just said that these persons may hold any discussions as persons and jointly. What is more, I do not think that that hon. member’s groups do things that way. At any rate, I do not want to concern myself with that aspect now.

The hon. member for Von Brandis referred to the report, which in his opinion is outdated. This has been the position since before the rinderpest. The hon. member knows that it is absolutely impossible for the Department of Mines to have a report on the 1971 activities ready in 1972. We have to rely on a very large number or organizations; there are all the mining companies and other organizations from which information has to be obtained. This will therefore remain the procedure in the future as well. If Parliament had sat in the second half of the year, this would have been possible. However, this is not possible at the moment. The report for 1970 which has appeared in 1972, is a new and a very good report, and I cannot change the position.

Then the hon. member asked me about the question of oil. I should like to make a statement on this matter. In the first place, as far as the search for oil on land is concerned, Soekor proceeded during 1971 with its prospecting programme in the cretaceous deposit in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth. Indications of oil were found in a few boreholes, but these are of no economic interest. At the moment a consulting firm from France is in the process of evaluating the prospecting results for us. Subsequent to that Soekor moved its drilling activities to Zululand. The first two boreholes. which were completed in 1971, were negative as far as oil or gas occurrences were concerned. The drilling programme in Zululand was concluded for the time being after two more boreholes had been sunk. In other words, four boreholes were sunk in Zululand. These two boreholes were sunk this year without any success, and Soekor is now moving its drilling activities to the North Karoo Basin. For the information of hon. members I may just say that the North Karoo Basin is that area which partly surrounds Lesotho, i.e. the area from Harrismith up to Zastron. The two off-shore drills, namely the Ocean Traveller and the Trans-World 61, which were still in commission at the end of 1970, disposed of their drilling commitments during the first quarter of 1971. On behalf of Soekor and a certain mining group the Trans-World 61 sank a borehole at Mossel Bay and another at Plettenberg Bay. Both were unsuccessful. The Ocean Traveller sank one borehole near Knysna and another one opposite the mouth of the Tugela River for two respective private consortiums. The hole near Knysna only showed indications of gas, and the other one was dry. I want to add, and this is important, that the evaluation of data on the offshore areas was continued during the year and that it is, hoped to have located enough drilling positions by the middle of 1972 for a continuous drilling programme of one year. In reply to questions I stated previously what amounts had been spent, and therefore I shall not go into that matter again.

As far as the off-shore drilling is concerned, private sublessees of Soekor have up to now sunk a total of ten boreholes in the sea-bed, and Soekor had a share in some of them. As I said before, I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that our total expenditure of R62 million over the past seven years is very modest in comparison with the amounts spent in other countries. I want to mention one example. In Australia, 700 million Australian dollars were spent on the search for oil over the past seven years. In South Africa, depending on the type of drill we have to use in South Africa, our drilling costs on land vary between R50 and R90 per metre. The off-shore drilling costs are calculated at approximately R30 000 per day.

As far as the future is concerned, I want to say the following: Soekor’s activities on land have now been moved to the North Karoo Basin, as I have already said, and this will take approximately one year’s drilling. The first drill is now being erected in the Harrismith district. The hon. member asked another question in that regard, and I want him to listen attentively now. The main object here is to try to find a sufficient number of reservoir properties in the Karoo formation, where small oil and gas occurrences have been located repeatedly. Depending on an evaluation report, on which we are waiting, additional drilling may be carried out in the Algoa Basin. According to our present knowledge, some of our offshore areas are more promising and renewed interest is being shown by international oil companies in actively exploring the sea-bed. Several off-shore areas have been sub-let by Soekor, and other negotiations for sub-letting are in progress. In recent times a scarcity of off-shore drills suitable for our waters, has been experienced. However, negotiations for the mobilization of an off-shore drilling platform—for other reasons I am not keen to mention the name of the platform now—have virtually been concluded, and it is trusted that after the modifications have been effected in the Cape Town harbour, it will be ready before the end of 1972 for starting drilling operations on the Agulhas Bank. Mindful of the necessity of carrying on the search for oil in South Africa in a purposeful manner and of granting every assistance to possible prospectors and developers, I announced in a Press statement as far back as 25th February of this year that the Government was prepared to consider proposals made by prospecting companies, proposals which would stimulate further the search for economically exploitable oil and/or gas resources and especially the more expensive search on the sea-bed. The House will remember that we made certain concessions at the beginning. We feel that we should perhaps go further now. The companies have been requested to submit economically founded proposals in this regard to the Department of Mines, which will examine these proposals in consultation with other interested Government departments and organizations and submit recommendations to the Government. As I have said, we have, of course, announced considerable tax concessions to the first discovers of oil and gas on land and on sea, but it is hoped that it will also be possible to find other ways and means for making the search for oil in our country more attractive to these companies.

In the last place, I just want to add that oil is not something which is found quickly. The soonest that oil has ever been found in the history of exploitable economic quantities, was here at Cabinda, after a search of nine years. Australia has at the moment, as hon. members know, fairly strong oilwells. They searched for 50 years.

The second point I want to mention, is that the Soekor Board, with Mr. Dawid De Villiers of Sasol as chairman, is adamant about undertaking the matter in a scientific way, for this is the only way. Every hole that is drilled, is not necessarily drilled for the purpose of searching for oil. It is always hoped—and hope springs eternal in the human breast—that even in that hole oil will be found. But several holes are drilled so as to ascertain whether the formation corresponds with the findings made through other methods of prospecting. I am saying this very clearly so that the idea should not take root in the public mind that every hole is sunk because the primary consideration is that oil or natural gas is specifically being searched for on that spot. This is not the position, although it may in fact happen.

Then the hon. member put questions to me on the question of uranium. I can give him a very short reply in this regard. I think I am going to read it as it is a very delicate matter. I discussed the matter in detail with the Ucor Board. As hon. members know, the names of the members of the Ucor Board are not known, and this is so for good reasons. I may just say in general that the pilot enrichment plant is doing very well. I just want to furnish hon. members briefly with certain information so that they may be informed.

In pursuance of the general policy of curtailing Government expenditure as far as possible without bringing about serious disruption by those means, serious attempts also had to be made to curtail the expenditure of the Uranium Enrichment Corporation wherever this was at all possible. In other words, they had to make a contribution, too. By way of a replanning of the erection of the pilot plant, the board of directors of Ucor succeeded in effecting a reduction in the funds for the present financial year. This replanning nevertheless makes it possible for the enrichment process to be proved on a part of the plant according to the original time-scale, but the completion of the plant as a whole will be effected on a somewhat later date than was originally planned. In other words, on a part of the plant, the enriched uranium will still be produced on the date we have in mind, but the plant as a whole will now reach the production stage at a somewhat later date.

The research and operating activities are progressing according to plan, and although technological problems have been cropping up sporadically, as was expected, it has been possible to meet all of them successfully. A most important aspect of the uranium enrichment project is that Ucor has to rely chiefly on having the spare parts and the components of the pilot plant manufactured by South African industries. This circumstance has stimulated our industry into gearing itself, to a greater extent than was the case before, for being able to undertake manufacturing complying with our exceptionally high requirements. It is gratifying to see that the industrial sector has very successfully been undertaking the tasks entrusted to it. Several industries are involved in this matter, especially on the Witwatersrand and also in other centres.

Then the hon. member asked me whether I could mention any dates to him in this regard. Unfortunately I cannot. We shall simply have to wait to see when the enrichment plant will start production. But, as I have already indicated, the original date still holds good for a part of that plant, but the plant as a whole will be completed at a somewhat later date.

Then the hon. member for Virginia raised the question of diamond smuggling. I am glad he did so, for I think he furnished the House with information which is not only correct, but also very interesting and valuable. It is true that the commission of inquiry—and I may tell the hon. member that the indication given by the chairman is that the report will be made available to me during the second half of the year; in other words, it is not a drawn out inquiry—will, it is hoped, report on this matter as well.

The hon. member for Salt River wanted to know about the help we are giving to marginal mines. I may say to the hon. member that as far as the “lease of life” is concerned, I think it would be unwise for me as the Minister of Mines to give details about every single mine. All I can say to the hon. member is that we have very strict regulations and rules as to when we should give assistance to a mine and when not. If we are not certain that that mine’s life will at least be extended for another eight years, we do not consider it. Secondly, with the high price of gold, it is quite true that the life of these mines will perhaps be longer. I do not think much longer, because again it is for the mines themselves to evaluate what the potential of their mines is. When a mine closes, the Minister of Mines has to be given notice well in advance. It is then thoroughly investigated by the Chief Mining Engineer, who then advises the department and the Minister. We may even go so far as to ask other instances to take over the administration and the working of a mine if we feel that it can still be run on a profitable basis. I think the hon. member will agree with me that it would be unwise to give the exact dates as to when these mines will close and when not. It is for the mining companies themselves to decide. I can assure the hon. member that they do inform their employees well in advance of what the situation is.

*The hon. member for Carletonville raised the question of sinkholes, and spoke with appreciation of the work which was being done there by the technical committee, of the contribution of the State, etc. I note this with appreciation, because I think the knowledge we have of sinkholes is unparallelled in the world on account of our situation. The facts which the hon. member mentioned, are perfectly correct. It is the true history of the situation and of conditions as they are. As regards the land which have been bought out, it is in fact the position that the various mining companies have to pay a levy to the association. That association is obliged, under certain circumstances, to purchase the land and to perform other tasks. For example, they have to supervise the drilling of holes, etc. It is also true that the levy paid by the mines to the association is not subject to income tax. In other words, by way of a loss in revenue, the State makes a contribution to the purchase of that land and to the other tasks that have to be performed. In past years I went into this matter very thoroughly, because the hon. member had mentioned it to me long ago. I think this is the right way, because if the mines were to have prevented subsidences the water would have had to be drawn off, and that would have been infinitely more expensive than pumping out the water. In addition to that there would still have been the purchase of land and the other items of expenditure. If they had prevented subsidences in that manner, if it would have been possible to do so in practice, no tax would have been levied on all the money that would have been spent on preventing subsidences either. In other words, this indirect contribution of the State, or a larger one, would have been made in any event. Now the question arises, however, of what the association’s policy should be with regard to the land which has been purchased. At the moment land which has been declared safe, is leased to farmers. The mining companies or the association is not carrying on any farming operations on such land that I know of. This land is leased to farmers. Secondly, the constitution of the association provides very clearly that such land which has been purchased, shall not be utilized for the profit of mining companies which pay the levies. Article 3 (b) of the association’s constitution reads as follows—

In other words, these profits cannot accrue to the mining companies. The hon. member for Carletonville also came forward with the interesting idea that that land could possibly be used for recreational purposes. I do not think he has all the land in mind, but only portions of it. However, I want to tell the hon. member for Orange Grove at once that he spoke about something of which he really knew nothing. Negotiations are already under way to use this land for recreational purposes in that area. Of course, this cannot be done at the moment. It will only be done and considered once one has overall stabilization. However, scientifically we are absolutely sure, just as sure as we are that the sun will rise tomorrow, that we will have general stabilization. So the idea of the hon. member for Carletonville i s a perfectly good one. Perhaps, some day when we have attained a ripe old age we shall be able to drive around in that area and perhaps have a braaivleis in Greyling Park.

Hear, hear!

Then the hon. member for Benoni raised the question of dust control at mine dumps. This is a function prescribed by an Act administered by the Department of Health. However, as the hon. member knows, part of that is administered in practice by the State Mining Engineer. In terms of section 27 of the Act, dust-control areas, which include 21 magisterial districts, have already been proclaimed. These include virtually all the mine dumps on the Witwatersrand. Secondly, a special unit was established by the Chambers of Mines in 1965. Some 3 000 ha of land has been put under grass, and more than R5 million has been spent on these projects. I may also draw the hon. member’s attention to the fact that an amount of R70 000, which is the State’s contribution for the next financial year, appears on the Vote of the Department of Health. In this regard I have to agree with the hon. member for Etosha, i.e. that this amount which the State provides on that Vote, appears in the Estimates specifically as a result of the years of United Party rule in which they did not do their duty in respect of this problem. One can no longer find the owners of those mine dumps, so the State simply had to say that it would make a contribution. The State contributes 80 per cent at the moment, if I am correct, while approximately 20 per cent comes from the land-owners and the local authority. The fact of the matter is that this is a difficult problem because the grass simply does not want to grow. However, we have made a great deal of progress in this regard, but this must in no way serve as an indication to the mining authorities or to my department that now we may proceed quite leisurely. August last year I myself drove through Johannesburg on a windy day and found that it was rather unpleasant as a result of the dust coming from the mine dumps which as yet had not been planted with grass.

The hon. member also spoke about water pollution. I just want to tell him that the available codes have been drawn up and made available by the Department of Water Affairs, the Department of Mines and the Bureau of Standards. There are two codes, one for the gold mines and one for the coal mines. The idea which the hon. member has of collecting large pans of water on the East Rand for other uses, is not quite practical. Where we are to get the land from, I do not know. However, I want to tell the hon. member that as yet my department and I have not received any specific complaints of water pollution from those areas. In any event, the inspectors of the department are always keeping a watchful eye not only on the prevention of pollution, for sometimes pollution cannot be prevented altogether, but also on restricting pollution to an absolute minimum, and they see to it that these codes are duly complied with. If he likes, the hon. member may peruse these codes, for they make interesting reading. Then the hon. member also mentioned the question of mesothelioma. It is a lung disease contracted by people who work in an asbestos—loaded atmosphere. In such cases there is a high incidence of lung cancer as well. It is a disease for which compensation is paid. This is one aspect in respect of which we are extremely active. Research in this regard is being done at the clinic at Kuruman. A month or two ago at the new Unit for Occupational Diseases, which already exists under the Medical Research Council, I put into operation a mobile unit which will go from one factory to another —not necessarily asbestos mines, but also in the building industry—in order to see what the effect is on our overall working community.

Lastly the hon. member mentioned the question of tiger’s-eye. I may just say that the export of tiger’s-eye in its natural state had to come to an end and did in fact largely come to an end on 31st May last year. Since the imposition of the prohibition the Department of Commerce and Industries have still issued certain export permits, which amounted to approximatelymillion pounds. Unfortunately, however, the definition of tiger’s-eye in the regulations was made too wide, and there are still people who get round the measure. Now we have tightened up the regulations so as to provide that it should be in a certain kind of processed state only. I do not want to tire you by reading out everything to you, Sir, but with the sound co-operation of the Police, we are combating the export of tiger’s-eye which is not in a properly processed state. In this regard I may say that to my mind the public, and especially the people there at Niekerkshoop who are in the know, also have a duty to bring it to our attention when people who are not entitled to do so, export this particular mineral, which is found in South Africa only. That is why I want to make the plea, also through hon. members here, that if there is any information of tiger’s-eye, which is not in a properly processed state, leaving the shores of South Africa, for such information to be brought to our attention, because that may simply not happen.

The hon. member spoke about the question of pollution by mine dumps. I am glad he raised it, because he will recall that it was during his years in the National Party that the United Party neglected their duty in respect of this matter. However, the hon. member also asked questions about the sink-holes. If he makes a careful study of the Hansard of the hon. member for Carletonville, he will find valuable information. I shall just give him a little additional information. Since we have become aware of sink-holes, there were 250. 110 of those developed in five areas from 1947 to 1963. From 1963 to 1972 there were 140. In 1970 there were 60; 57 in the Bank compartment and 3 in the Venterspos compartment. Last year there was none in the Venterspos compartment and 1 in the Bank compartment; in other words, there was a decrease of approximately 20. As far as the future is concerned, I think the hon. member may safely assume that in several areas—I do not want to go into details now—stabilization is setting in. In some areas stabilization is already complete. Furthermore, the Venterspos and the Bank compartments are now covered by an overall grid of 300 feet, as is the largest part of the Oberholzer compartment.

Then the hon. member raised the question of pollution resulting from nuclear activities. On that point I want to give the absolute assurance that we are extremely strict, to the complete satisfaction of the scientists who have to advise us. This is done, not only in co-operation with, but strictly in accordance with the international rules and regulations laid down. I may add that in the area of Pelindaba there is proof that this is successful, because as yet the readings and the tests conducted there have not in any way indicated that there is a disturbance of the normal atmosphere or of the water supply. But in this regard the hon. member will realize that we have to allow ourselves to be guided solely by international practices and by our own scientists who have served us for the best so far.

Then the hon. member for Bethal voiced his concern over the mines which are closing down, and asked what was going to become of such towns.

In the rural areas.

Yes, in the rural areas, especially where these areas are remote from the industrial complexes. In the first instance, I want to say that although they are a source of concern to all of us and although the Department of Planning is continually giving this matter its attention, as the hon. member knows, one must be realistic. One can only do that which one is able to within the present limits. In other words, the location of other industries can only take place if it can be done on an economic basis. The location of industries is not in the hands of the Government; it is in the hands of private initiative. Where we may possibly use our influence, as we in the Department of Mines do in respect of the refining of minerals, we do try to use our influence, with some success, so as to see to the location of industries in those areas from which mining may eventually disappear.

As far as the coal position is concerned, I may say that they have been specially charged with the aspect of conservation. Unfortunately I cannot tell the hon. member when we shall be getting this report, but I do know that they are hard at work in that regard. The hon. member will know that we were inclined to say in the past that South Africa had vast deposists of coal. We do have vast deposits of coal, but the coal is of a low grade. Conservation codes are being applied with great care in order to save our coal for posterity as long as possible. As regards pollution from coal mines and coal-talings dumps, the position is that these codes drawn up by the Departments of Mines and Water Affairs and the Bureau of Standards, were drawn up separately specifically for coal mines. Unfortunately I do not have any information on the implementation of these codes in the hon. member’s constituency but if he approaches us with his particular problem, he will receive all possible assistance from the Department to have the codes applied, if they are not being applied—although I have a feeling that they are being applied—and if they are being applied, but are not been applied as they should be, to see that pollution is eliminated as far as possible.

Sir, I think that with these answers I have replied to the questions put to me. However, no reply has been forthcoming to the question which I put to the United Party.

They are afraid to reply to it.

Sir, what has been a feature of this whole debate is that the United Party has not been prepared in any way to talk about mining trade unions. As far as we on this side are concerned, the mining trade unions are of the greatest importance in the mining industry in South Africa. A rift has now opened up between the policy of that side and the policy of this side, one which has never existed before. This side is not prepared, as the United Party is, to tell mining trade unions that the Bantu on the mines must be organized. We are not prepared, as the United Party is, to say that the Bantu must be affiliated with the mining trade unions.

Now you are talking politics.

But of course I am talking politics. I am not afraid to talk politics with a mine worker. I should like to know what mineworker would be prepared even to consider the idea that Bantu should be affiliated with his trade union and that they should then speak from the same mouth. We, along with the mineworkers, reject this, because it is a policy in which unrest and infinite problems for South Africa are inherent.

As yet you have not replied to the question I put to you about the desalination of sea water by nuclear power.

That question the hon. member will have to put either to the Minister of Water Affairs or to the Minister of Planning.

By nuclear power?

Yes, by nuclear power.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Votes Nos. 29.—“Health”, R41 420 000, and 30.—“Health: Hospitals and Institutions”, R22 236 000, and S.W.A. Vote No. 15.—“Health”, R746 000:

Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words firstly about the outbreak of malaria in the Eastern Transvaal. There seems to be a difference between the figures given by the hon. Minister and the figures made public by a Nationalist member of the Transvaal Provincial Council. At the beginning of this outbreak this Nationalist M.P.C. made a statement in the Press, and the Argus of 28th April repeated some of the things that this gentleman had said. The report reads—

Sir, if a group of people have to form themselves into an anti-malarial committee, then something certainly must have gone wrong with the prophylactic measures taken by the department and with the directives that were given by the Minister. This gentleman will tell the hon. Minister that there were two deaths from malaria and 89 positive cases. There were nine deaths at Elim Hospital, and at the Tsombe Mission Hospital there were 13 deaths from malaria; at Bushbuck Ridge there were four deaths from this disease. He gives a list of the numbers of persons who were suffering from malaria in the various hospitals. These figures differ considerably from the figures that were given officially by the hon. Minister of Health. The figures of the hon. the Minister of Health, quite rightly, are based on the notifications of malarial cases in the various centres. Either the Minister’s figures are right or the Nationalist M.P.C.’s figures are right. This M.P.C. says that the figures given by the Department were not only incorrect but that they were twisted. If the Minister is right, then this M.P.C. should resign his position from the Provincial Council of the Transvaal. They cannot have it both ways. This is a serious matter because the figures given by the Nationalist M.P.C. are far in excess of those given by the hon. Minister.

I am quite certain that this department knows how to deal with an outbreak of malaria, but I am rather surprised to find that the money voted by the Central Government to combat infectious diseases has been reduced by R260 000. I want to ask the Minister to reconsider the position and to ask himself whether that reduction was justified. Sir, I want to leave it at that because in the short space of time that I have at my disposal I want to deal with another very important matter and that is the continual rise in the cost of medical care. The Minister, with due regard to the requirements of the population, agreed that every encouragement should be given to the medical aid and medical benefit societies schemes. The doctors who belong to the medical aid schemes have had their fees pegged, and that pegging, as I work it out, will last for a minimum period of three years. The doctors are playing their part; they have agreed to this pegging. But what is happening in the other spheres? I cannot see how the medical aid schemes can keep going unless the State helps them to keep going. I know what the feeling of the Minister is. He has publicly stated that he will not subsidize the medical aid schemes but just see what it costs to be ill these days; just listen to these figures, that have been given to me by a medical aid scheme. A patient was treated for 19 days in a nursing home for a perforated peptic ulcer. The total cost of drugs, theatre and ward was R956 and the total hospital bill was R1 181 and the medical aid scheme had to face it. A male went in for a chest investigation and his hospital bill was R354 for 11 days.

Did he get another ulcer?

There was another investigation lasting 26 days and that ran to R449. I want the Minister to note this. How can any medical aid scheme keep going at the present subscription rates if they are faced with bills of this nature?

What is the average?

I do not have the average. Perhaps you can give it to me.

I will give it to you.

The Minister will tell us that the cost of drugs is probably too high, but this Government imposes a duty on the importation of drugs and raw material, and the customs and excise that is put on by the Government swells the cost of drugs enormously, because the charges are the percentage charges from the time of the first handling until the time of the receipt of the drugs by the patient, and that keeps on going up and up and it is 30 per cent or 33 per cent, probably, on each handling. You cannot go on like this, and I say to the Minister that unless he helps the medical aid schemes in some way or other, those schemes will have no option but to keep on increasing the contributions they expect from their members. As a result more and more people will have to fall out of the medical aid schemes and will become a burden on the provincial hospitals, which are already overburdened. The Minister knows as well as I do that beds are vacant in hospitals because there are not enough nurses to man them. The nursing homes are overcrowded because the people cannot get into hospitals today, and when there are beds vacant there is a long queue of people waiting to get into those beds. Can we afford to let these conditions slide along without taking some sort of action? I say that competition by the nursing homes who are taking away the nurses be stopped. The salary scales for nurses must be increased and the conditions of service must be such that nurses will become attracted to the provincial hospitals and to the State hospitals. The nurses would much rather work in one of those hospitals.

I have enough.

Then give some to the provincial hospitals and do not hog them all for yourself. I want to suggest that the hon. the Minister gets Directors of private nursing homes together for talks and let him do to the nursing homes what has been done to the doctors. Let us see whether we cannot peg the charges which are being made by nursing homes for the next three years in the same way as doctors’ charges have been pegged. Then perhaps we will be able to review the position again. But let us now see whether we cannot stop the cost of treating the sick from skyrocketing or at least bring it down to a level commensurate with the general cost of living today. [Time expired.]

I do not really want to follow up on what was said by the hon. member for Rosettenville, who has just resumed his seat. In regard to the remark he made about malaria., I wonder whether the hon. member expects the hon. the Minister to furnish any other figures than those officially supplied to the department in terms of law as a notifiable disease. We fully realize that after the heavy rains which have fallen throughout the country, especially in the Lowveld, the conditions for the hatching of malaria mosquitoes are exceptionally favourable, although it is pathological it may perhaps be natural in any case for the incidence of malaria to increase considerably in this area. It is just as logical that people will become excited about this, particularly lay members of provincial councils, and other bodies as well, and will issue statements. But I leave the entire matter in the hands of the Minister.

I should actually like to say a few words in regard to the training of medical students. When I speak of the training of medical students, I have to ask myself whether the training of our medical students has really been adapted to the requirements of South Africa. At present 11 500 doctors are registered with the Medical and Dental Council. For a population of 22 million this works out to be a ratio of one doctor for every 2 000 patients. For Africa this is satisfactory. If we compare it to European standards where there are approximately 800 to 900 patients to every one doctor, it is less satisfactory. If we consider only the Whites in South Africa, we see that the ratio works out to be one medical practitioner for approximately 400 to 500 patients. This is considerably better than the position in the European countries. But if we consider what the position is in regard to non-White medical practitioners as against non-White patients, it works out to be a ratio of one to 18 000, which is a rather alarming position. [Interjections.] Oh, my friend, is money all you think about? The fact of the matter is this. Recently there was a question in this House as to how many medical students had presented themselves at the various medical faculties, and how many had been refused admission. The important aspect is that the supply of Whites is considerably greater than can be accommodated. On the other hand, a man like Prof. Okkie Gordon, Dean of the Natal non-White Medical Faculty, recently said “I have scraped the barrel”. He had accepted all the nonWhite students whom he could possibly train, and still the number he could trian was insufficient. The reason is very clear; it is because in regard to pre-graduate training, pre-university training, the non-Whites have a considerable backlog, not because the necessary facilities are not being created for them, but for numerous other reasons, which I do not want to go into here today. The fact of the matter is there are simply not enough non-Whites, particularly Bantu, who are able to present themselves for training. If one bears those facts in mind the question arises whether the actual medical curricula which we offer are adapted to the actual demands made in South Africa on the medical profession. The question arises of how we can improve this, and whether we cannot offer a curriculum for auxiliary medical services among the non-Whites—even if it is only on an interim basis. The people trained for auxiliary medical services should be able to assist with preventative medicine, health education and with minor medical and surgical requirements. However, I do not want to call these people second-class doctors. In English there is a term for them, i.e. medical auxiliaries. It seems to me that we could in this way bring about a considerable improvement in our medical services, particularly in the homelands, and particularly since the medical services which are being provided to non-Whites definitely differ widely from those which have to be provided to the Whites. With the Whites we have progressed to the stage where we in fact have an out and out hospital bed-centralized medical training. I doubt whether this is the best training for South Africa. I do not want to comment any further on how this should be changed, but we have a great many needs and possibly the fact that we are doing so little in regard to preventative medicine and other related services, and the fact that we concentrate on an out and out hospital bed-centralized service, should be attributed to the fact that our training is in fact of such a nature. It seems to me as if we should begin to concentrate to a greater extent on the study of health services, including social services. We should make a study of voluntary health organizations, local authorities, home problems, the duties of the Department of Health, such as those of district surgeons, isolation hospitals, immunization services, social welfare and lastly, but not least, geriatrics. In addition, a study should be made of permanent disability, such as paraplegics and rheumatoidal arthritics. The people suffering from these diseases are becoming more and more of a problem today. I think the Department of Health is by no means to be absolved from this problem. The reason is probably because the training facilities for medical students consist only of what is provided by provincial administrations. There to one side, quite isolated, one finds for example a mental hospital; all one hears from a district surgeon is that no one is acquainted with immunization services. Visits are paid to a T.B. hospital only by way of exception. I can only see us providing the best services for South Africa if all these services, at least at the places where the medical schools are, are made available in a single building. When I say that, I do not mean that the T.B. hospital should also render its services there. What I mean is that the district surgeon’s services, immunization services and the services rendered by local authorities at clinics, pre-natal clinic services, out patient services, and so on, should all be made available near to these medical schools. I can only see our obtaining proper training if we can integrate the services rendered by the provincial authorities, by the Department of Health and the local authorities. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Fauresmith has referred to the question of training Bantu medical auxiliaries. He has referred to the present ratio which exists of general practitioners to the population as a whole. I believe that it is impossible to get a realistic conception of the picture because of the uneven distribution of the medical practitioners in South Africa which creates an imbalance in medical services throughout the country.

I want to come back to the cost of medicines and of certain medical services. I realize that in the limited time at my disposal, it is impossible to deal adequately with such a complex matter. I wish to refer to the Snyman Commission report. The Snyman Commission was appointed in 1960, and the report became available in 1962. It was appointed to investigate the high cost of medical services and medicines. We realize that in this complex matter this particular Minister is vitally concerned because he is concerned with the administration of the Drugs Control Act and also of the Medical Schemes Act. We know that the Minister exercises rigid control and supervision over the cost of medical and dental services which, however, have been rising appreciably nevertheless. We know from facts at our disposal and also references made in the Snyman Commission report that the cost of medicines as such is controlled at various levels. It is interesting to record that the Snyman Commission report said in so far as the wholesalers involved in the distrubution of medicine were concerned, that they did not contribute in any significant way to the cost structure because they worked on what was virtually a fixed profit margin of 15 per cent. I have read the Snyman Commission report and I cannot trace any specific complaint that the high costs of medicines were due to the last link in the chain, viz. the retail chemist who supplies the final product to the public. In fact, on page 118 of the commission’s report it says that it would appear that the part played by the prescription fees in the total cost of the prescription is relatively small. I think that the hon. the Minister will agree with me, as a result of his discussions with the members of the pharmaceutical profession, that the economic position of the retail pharmacist at the moment has deteriorated and that many of them find it necessary to diversify into commercial avenues in order to survive. They cannot exist in so far as the remuneration for their professional services alone is concerned.

I believe that there are other factors in the constant rise in medicine prices. This is a matter which, we are all aware, is causing great public concern. My question to the hon. the Minister at this stage is: How do the South African prices of prescription medicines compare with the same brand in countries where the parent drug companies manufacture and operate? I believe that this is a matter which requires constant review in order to satisfy ourselves that at least the prices in South Africa bear some relation to the consumer prices in the countries of manufacture. I ask whether the hon. the Minister has any up to date information in this respect. I appreciate that devaluation has been responsible for significant price increases on imported medicines. But we have to bear in mind, as the hon. the Minister recently pointed out when he addressed one of the drug associations that 2/3 of the manufactured medicines are imported and that 2/3 of the raw materials are also imported.

I now want to come specifically to the recommendation made in the report of the Snyman Commission on page 189.

This is what is said—

Now. Sir, this duty, as my hon. colleague for Rosettenville indicated, is applied at source. It therefore has some significant effect on the final price to the consumer. This recommendation was Tabled ten years ago. I want to ask the hon. the Minister what steps have been taken to investigate the feasibility of such a recommendation, and whether steps have been taken to implement the recommendation; if no steps have been taken, what are the reasons for not having taken steps? As I understand the Customs and Excise Act— and I refer to section 401 of Schedule 4 of the Customs and Excise Act, No. 91 of 1964—provision exists for exemptions by way of rebates. As I understand the position, the Central Government, the South African Railways and Harbours Administration, Provincial departments and certain other bodies are eligible on application for a rebate of the full extent of Customs duty in regard to medicines and other commodities. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether there has been an investigation which would indicate that there is virtually discrimination in the sense that those people who avail themselves of the services of State or provincial hospitals receive the benefit of medicines under some sort of rebate, whereas those members who are members of a medical aid scheme and in many cases receive their medical services from nursing homes are not in that favourable position because the drugs and supplies through the nursing homes are not eligible for the particular rebate which is provided for in the Act.

Arising from this I want to refer to the question of private nursing homes and to the manner in which some of them render their accounts. I believe that the medical aid societies are experiencing great difficulty in this particular matter. They claim that some charges appear to be excessive and that accounts are almost impossible to check. It is not always possible to obtain a doctor’s prescription in respect of the drugs supplied to a patient while he is in a nursing home. They claim too that many of the accounts do not disclose sufficient details; that quantities are not plainly indicated; and in many instances the strength of particular medicines are also not clearly shown. It means that the accounts are complicated and that it is difficult for them to check. Photostat copies are sometimes very difficult to read and are not clear. There is therefore a waste of administrative time and money which is costing the Medical Aid money. They suggest that some sort of standard account form should be obligatory. They feel, too, that as far as the medical aids are concerned that they should only pay for medicines which have been specifically prescribed on a doctor’s prescription, unless they happen to be drugs and other items supplied from the theatre where this would be difficult. They suggest there too that there should be a specific prescribed list and a limitation of quantities of medicaments prescribed from the operating theatre. They feel that failing this the Medical Aid should have the right to refuse payment of accounts which cannot be justified or substantiated. They also say that investigations should be made into the possibility of providing for the credit of unused and unopened items issued to patients. They quote vacolitres as a specific example. They also suggest that a set of rules governing nursing homes should be introduced to provide for a review of accounts which are subject to query. In addition they believe that there should be some attempt to standardize the theatre fees because most accounts apparently do not disclose the time during which the patient has made use of the operating theatre. They say that fees for theatre expenses differ from nursing home to nursing home for services of a similar nature. They also indicate that there is a variation in charges and that they have no means of checking in so far as the use of anaesthetic gases and oxygen are concerned.

Who is saying this?

The medical aids claim that all these factors complicate their rendering of accounts and increase their expenses. That is why they feel that there should be some laid-down system.

In the few moments left to me I would to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister in regard to the grant-in-aid which has been given annually to the National Cancer Association of South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to level criticism at the speech made by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. Nevertheless I do want to make a few remarks, partly in reference to what he said. In the first place I think that it is necessary to read the Snyman Commission report in its full perspective, and not extract from it a few phrases, when this entire matter of the high costs of medicine is being discussed. What is quoted on page 118, and the recommendations on page 186, no matter how correct these are—and I do not for a moment doubt their correctness—are only a small component of a very bulky report drawn up by this commission, in which reference was made to a 101 different factors which draw attention to this high cost structure in meeting requirements in regard to illnesses. I think it is necessary that there should perhaps be an announcement by the Minister in this debate, or that he should perhaps give us more information, if he thinks fit, concerning the fact that the Public Health Act, which has over the years done good service in regard to the prevention and combating of diseases in this country, has been on the Statute Book since as long ago as 1919, and that it is only with great difficulty that changes and amendments were effected from time to time. I think it is probably of the greatest importance that cognisance should be taken of the fact that now, at last after all these years, there is a Select Committee which is going into this entire matter and which inter alia envisages giving guidance and direction in future in regard to the matters mentioned by the hon. member. I hope that it will be possible for the Select Committee to do this work. This work was tackled by the hon. the Minister and his department with opposition from many sides, which fortunately it seems possible to eliminate. This Select Committee is at present engaged in its activities and will, it is hoped, be able to complete them, because thorough preparatory work was done.

I want to agree with the hon. member that the question of the high cost of medicines is a disturbing factor, particularly for the less well-to-do sector of our population. I want to ask the Minister to consider that, according to my information, our medicines are imported principally from five countries, namely England, America, Germany, Switzerland and Italy. In the case of American and English firms the prices which their pharmacists have quoted in the past two years, between 1970 and 1972, have increased by between 20 per cent to 50 per cent. This is an unheard of increase. This is not the fault of the Government, but is apparently as a result of monopolistic conditions which arose overseas and the kind of mutual agreements firms are able to reach. The increases in the wholesale prices of medicines imported from Germany, Switzerland and Italy during the past four years were also in the region of 20 per cent to 50 per cent. One can therefore imagine what this must cost the less well-to-do sector of our population. I think it is also necessary, when discussing these matters, that we should note there are other factors as well which are beyond the control of the Government, factors to which the various auxiliary bodies should give serious attention. I think for example of what would happen if the pharmaceutical profession, of which the hon. member is a member, were to take steps to combat the tremendous incidental costs. I am referring inter alia to the soaring costs associated with the advertising of medicines. One cannot understand where these manufacturers find the money to keep travellers on the road advertising medicines in colourful variety, and distributing thousands of tablets free of charge to individuals and doctors. I think this is a clear indication that this artificial mode of increase, which is eventually recovered in any case from the client who has to buy the products, should be counteracted. A further contributory factor is that at times there are 10 different varieties of the one kind of medicine on the market—this is the information I have from pharmacists. This is not something which a Government can control strictly by means of legislation. This is something which could to a certain extent be kept in check by the pharmaceutical industry if they were able to debate matters of this kind on a mutual basis.

In any case I want to ask whether the hon. the Minister cannot give his serious attention—I advocated this last year as well—to assistance being provided, by way of advice, encouragement and even, if it should become necessary, the kind of subsidy which is provided in other spheres, so that all the different medicines which are needed—in any case the most essential—can be manufactured in South Africa. I think this is a matter to which serious attention should be given. If we should reach a position—in this world in which we are living—where boycotts are imposed on us, I do not know if I am exaggerating the position if I say that the supply of medicines is one matter in respect of which we are almost totally dependent on overseas manufacturers. In this connection I am referring specifically now to Witbank, where a factory was erected but which, owning to various factors which I do not want to go into now—for example the price of raw materials, etc., —was unable to maintain production. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what the possibility is of thinking along these lines in South Africa.

Then I want to conclude by referring to the other sector of the medical profession for which protection has to be requested, namely the pharmaceutical profession. I have heard that recently there has been a development where, unlike in other professional bodies, this profession, which requires a difficult course, one which is probably almost as difficult as that of a medical practitioner, finds itself in the position that they can for example have one qualified person in a business and may employ as partners and other assistants people who are not fully qualified. I understand that an attempt is also being made now on the part of the supermarkets to try to promote the supply of medicines by appointing one qualified person. I think of the pharmaceutical profession, particularly in small country towns. I turn to the hon. member for Berea.

Yes, speak to him; will they support us?

Yes, will that hon. member and pharmacists in the major cities now support us in our attitude in respect of the position where major pharmaceutical firms have only one qualified pharmacist in service, and then employ a lot of people in inferior positions? But because that firm has one person in service who is qualified, it is able to control a whole chain of outlets, and virtually dictate the prices for an entire community. I think the smaller chemists in the rural areas and elsewhere in the cities deserve to be protected. I think the pharmaceutical profession ownes it to the smaller firms—in the same way as other smaller business enterprises are being protected against these groups—so that the pharmaceutical profession will be preserved as it has been preserved in the past, and continue to render good service to us. I am making an appeal to that hon. member to support me.

Not only him.

His entire profession, yes.

Mr. Chairman, I think it is quite fitting that one who is neither a chemist nor a doctor should enter the debate at this stage. The problem which the hon. member for Witbank has raised, particularly the cost of medicines and the manufacture of medicines in South Africa, is, of course, largely linked with the patent rights which are vested in the overseas inventors or the original prescribers of these medicines. I believe that this is a matter which the hon. the Minister is looking into to see to what extent there can be reciprocal arrangements to get over the patent prohibitions that exist. The second problem, of course, is the recoupment of the vast amounts spent on research before the medicines were produced in the first instance. These manufacturing firms, where they are not supported by their Governments, have to recoup their expenditure on research. I am sure that that is a matter that the hon. the Minister will deal with. I want to come back just briefly to one matter that was raised by the hon. member for Fauresmith and that is the question of medical services in the Bantu homelands. Sir, the problem which the hon. member sketched is a very real one, particularly as we find in the latest statistics that the Bantu themselves are not producing the number of matriculants that are necessary to provide for the various professions in which they must become self-sufficient over the years.

Except in nursing.

Yes, except in nursing. I am talking about the matriculants who are needed to become lawyers, doctors and dentists in the Bantu homelands. I want to raise with the hon. the Minister one matter which is of concern to what one might call the para-medical personnel who are working in the Bantu areas. I am infomed that the State health inspectors in the territories do not get the territorial allowances which are paid to medical officers in these areas. I refer to the health inspectors attached to the State Department of Health…

Whites.

Yes—who are seconded to the Bantu areas. I think they should be encouraged to stay where they are and to continue doing this work. Quite obviously they have certain difficulties to cope with; their children have to be sent to boarding schools in the White areas, at extra cost to themselves, to complete their education. They should also therefore get this territorial allowance.

Sir, there is one thing that has become apparent in the debate so far. and that is that there is general concern in this Committee over the cost of medicine, medical treatment and hospitalization. If that is the feeling in this Committee this afternoon, then one realizes an everpresent fear in the mind of every member of the public as to what is going to happen if illness should overtake him, particularly some serious illness. Sir, medical aid schemes are assisting and they can assist, but they can only assist provided the subscriptions or membership fees which have to be paid to them are contained within reasonable limits. Basically these medical aid and medical benefit schemes are there to provide safeguards against the cost of illness. Naturally the subscription fees or premiums collected by these societies must be sufficient to cover the cost of the medical services given to their members. There is a tariff committee which looks after the medical practitioners’ charges, but I want to add to what has already been said about the lack of control of charges made by nursing homes and private hospitals. Many of these homes have absolutely prohibitive tariffs. Some of them, I would say, are blatantly profiteering, when one looks at the details of the accounts which they render to patients. If one goes to a certain type of specialist, you find that it seems to be quite infra dig, for you to go to a nursing home or private hospital unless it has a five-star hotel rating, with plush entrance doors and receptor rooms with armchairs together with coffee service, so that by the time one goes into the theatre for half an hour or an hour, one is conditioned to pay five-star rates for a short stay in the clinic. There seems to be an attempt on the part of each new medical centre to out-smart the previous one, and I believe that that is so because there is no restriction on the charges that can be levied for the services that they render. Sir, either these tariffs must be brought under control or the State, in collaboration with the provinces, should provide free hospitalization. It must be the one or the other. In any event, I believe that patients who are directed to a particular nursing home should be informed as to who are the proprietors or the beneficial shareholders of that nursing home. Alternatively, if a doctor or a specialist refers a patient to a nursing home in which he has a financial interest, he should be obliged by law to disclose that fact to the patient. In other words, where specialists or medical practitioners establish a nursing home, as many of them do, where the profits accrue to them, they should, if they refer their patients there, be obliged by law to disclose to their patients the fact that they have a financial interest in that nursing home. I believe that the present basis of provincial financing gives the hon. the Minister an opportunity to look into the whole question of free hospitalization. We have a new system now in which the provinces apply to the Central Government for the funds they require to run provincial services, and I think one should look at the position as it now exists. In the Cape Province, according to the latest figures I have available, the collections from hospital fees amount to less than 8 per cent of the total maintenance expenditure. In the year 1969-’70, for example, I find that the estimated expenditure on the running of hospitals was R55 720 000 and that the estimated collection of fees for that year was R4 675 (XX). That is the position in the Cape Province; I am not sure what the position is in the other provinces, but I think the position there would be pretty well the same. Sir, there is an enormous amount of work involved in the collection of this 8 per cent. This 8 per cent is collected from a minority of the population, that is to say, from those persons who do not belong to medical aid schemes. Members of schemes would, of course, be turned away from provincial hospitals and be told to go to private hospitals. Others are admitted free of charge because of the means test.

They are not necessarily turned away.

They are, of course, admitted in cases of emergency or in those cases where they cannot get treatment elsewhere. I realize that basically there are exceptions. Sir, we have the same position in regard to motor vehicle accidents. When people involved in motor vehicle accidents were admitted to the provincial hospitals the hospitals tried to recover fees from the successful litigants. That has now been dropped and an arrangement has been made whereby the MVA Fund pays the hospitals R500 000 a year, I believe, to cover the hospitalization of persons involved in motor vehicle accidents. This has done away with the paper work.

That is a provincial matter.

Unless the Central Government is prepared to give the provinces the necessary finances the provinces are unable to introduce free hospitalization. The Minister will be aware that a new dispensation has been introduced as far as the financing of the provinces is concerned. The provinces no longer raise their own revenue; they cannot raise their own revenue by taxation. They look to the Central Government for funds. My request to the hon. the Minister is that he should make representations to the Cabinet that the Treasury should pay a sufficiently large amount to the provinces to enable them to provide free hospitalization. Sir, I want to say—and I do not think that there is a single member of this Committee who would disagree with me—that if the private nursing homes and private hospitals are permitted to go on charging what they are charging at the present moment, then inevitably the subscriptions and premiums payable to medical aid schemes will rise and continue to rise to a figure that is beyond the means of the ordinary man. [Time expired.]

In the

main I want to agree with the hon. member for Green Point, who has just sat down, in his plea concerning the costs of private nursing homes. We who have experience of the fees charged by these private homes, know full well that in many cases, or in most cases, the fees charged by these people for accommodation in their homes, are exceedingly high. I want to associate myself with the plea made by the hon. member, i.e. that the time has arrived when the cost structure or the fee structure of these homes should be looked into.

Actually I am on my feet to discuss a matter which the hon. member for Berea touched on only in passing and that is the question of the maldistribution of doctors in the Republic of South Africa. My hon. friend, the member for Fauresmith, pointed out that in our White areas the ratio of White doctors to White patients was 1 to 400, which is a very favourable ratio. However, I want to make the statement that we are experiencing an acute shortage of the services of doctors in the rural areas at the moment. Even though this ratio is so favourable in our White areas, we are experiencing the phenomenon in the rural areas, particularly in the smaller towns, that White doctors are virtually completely unavailable. It is difficult to prove this statement with statistics. I have made enquiries at the Medical Council, but unfortunately the Medical Council does not keep its records in a form from which one may readily ascertain the distribution of doctors over the Republic. However, from my own observations as well as from talks with colleagues, I can testify to the fact that our rural areas are suffering under this shortage at the moment.

Further proof of this fact is that if one looks at the Department of Health’s list of vacancies for district surgeons, one finds, in the Cape in particular, that 40 or more posts have been vacant for the past few years, and that these vacancies all relate to smaller places. These communities suffer because of this, and this situation contributes to the increased costs of their medical care as they have to call in doctors from neighbouring larger centres, and this costs money. The situation is so serious at some places that a columnist in one of our local newspapers recently wrote that a deputation of leading residents were even visiting medical schools in an attempt to persuade the younger students to come and practise at those places. Of course it is not the duty of the State to provide private medical services to such communities, but I do think nevertheless that since the position is beginning to assume critical proportions, the State does in fact have a duty. If one has regard to the fact that the training of a doctor costs the State between R10 000 and R12 000, surely the State should eventually have some say as to where and how such a doctor practises his profession. I do not want to advocate that the State should tell specific doctors that they should settle at specific places, but I think there may be some merit in the idea of conducting urgent discussions on this subject with the Medical Association. The Medical Association, too, as spokesman for the medical profession, has a responsibility to the public, and I feel that a fruitful discussion between the department and the Medical Association may possibly lead to finding a solution to this dilemma.

There are various reasons for this phenomenon of doctors no longer wishing to settle in the smaller centres as readily as they did in the past. It is symptomatic of the whole phenomenon of the depopulation of the rural areas, but I should like to mention a few of these causes and perhaps throw a little more light on them. In this regard I again want to associate myself with the hon. member for Fauresmith in his plea for more purposeful training of our students. I ask myself the question whether our training of medical students does not in fact discourage these people from settling in the rural areas. My hon. colleague pointed out that the students are taught to see a sick person as someone in a hospital bed, and they forget that there are also sick people who need care in their homes and on farms. Our students are trained up to a very high degree today, and for that one has great appreciation, but one also asks oneself whether these people do not, because of the climate, the background and the inspiration they experience in these medical schools, come to regard specialization in their field as the only course open to them and forget that there have to be general practitioners as well. Throughout the ages it has always been the view that the general practitioner in medicine is really the backbone of the profession. I am not advocating a lowering of the standard of our medical training; I am simply asking for an approach of encouraging these people to settle in private practices in the rural areas where fruitful work can be done, where enormous compensation is offered for the work one does and where one is able to realize oneself fully. I make the statement that this over-concentration of doctors in cities is one of the major factors giving rise to the increased costs of medical services. It is a fact that when there are too many doctors in an urban complex, all the doctors cannot draw to them the optimum number of patients who can guarantee them a reasonable living. We find the situation that doctors, and young doctors in particular, settle in cities; that they are not consulted by a sufficient number of patients to provide them with a decent livelihood and that they consequently persist in demanding an increase in the fees of medical practitioners. This is definitely a factor which contributes to the increased costs of medical services. The solution to this situation is not obvious. More training facilities in this country will not solve this problem for us. I have already referred to the question of discussions with the Medical Associations, but I am also aware of the fact that the Department of Health has, in its search for more district surgeons, given consideration to paying these people a subsidy which will enable them to settle in smaller places. I want to encourage this idea, and I want to ask them to press on with renewed vigour. The position is that they advertise a post in the rural areas where there is a vacancy for a district surgeon, a post to which a certain salary is attached. Over and above that salary, the prospective doctor is paid an annual amount as an incentive to settle there. Subsequently the amount decreases annually as the doctor’s income from the general practice increases. I think this is a step in the right direction, and that it will make a large contribution towards meeting this serious shortage under which our rural communities are suffering.

Mr. Chairman, I rise with trepidation to join in this distinguished field of doctors who are discussing the subject of health services, because I am neither a doctor nor a dentist. I am not even a veterinary surgeon. But I do sometimes get toothache, and for this reason I feel that I am qualified to venture into the field of dental problems. The hon. member who has just spoken raised the question of doctors in the platteland areas. I must say that I agree with him entirely and that he has made out a very good case. I hope that what he has said has not fallen on deaf ears. I remember only too well the old family doctor of days gone by, who was certainly a distinguished person in the community. I would certainly like to see that situation maintained and even improved upon.

The problem I wish to raise is one of dental facilities for indigent people. It has come to my notice that there is a drastic shortage of dental facilities for indigent persons. I refer more particularly to the area that I serve, namely Port Elizabeth. I believe this problem is not only confined to the area of Port Elizabeth; it is a problem which is probably nation-wide. To give some idea of the tremendous shortage of these facilities, I can say that to the best of my knowledge, in the whole of the Port Elizabeth complex, there is only one limited dental service or clinic for Bantu people, and I refer to Bantu schoolchildren especially. This clinic is a Red Cross institution; it is a charitable organization. This clinic, as the hon. the Minister may well know, is a place called Veeplaats. This service is given only once a month and then plus minus 50 patients are treated. The hon. the Minister must bear in mind that I am dealing with a population group of something like 200 000. Fifty of them are treated once a month at this clinic which, to a large extent, is a charitable organization. To illustrate the urgency of the reed for such a service, I want to tell the hon. the Minister that people start queueing at 10’clock in the morning to attend this clinic in the hope of possibly being one of the 50 who will get some kind of service. I do not know what happens to those who are not in the front of the queue. What happens to the balance? The hon. the Minister’s guess is as good as mine. I believe that this state of affairs is not good enough. I know that the hon. the Minister will agree with me. I have every reason to believe that the hon. the Minister is fully aware of the extent of this problem and of allied problems throughout the country. He has only to read, which I am sure he has done, this great big report of the commission of enquiry into dental services and the training of non-White dental surgeons. This is a tremendous report. In answer to a question tabled by my colleague, the hon. member for Berea, the hon. the Minister in fact said that consideration had been given to this report, but that only certain aspects of it had been accepted and that the others would receive attention later. I do not know which ones the hon. the Minister has already accepted and to which he will still give attention. I think we received this report in July, 1970. Time is going by and we have still not heard what the hon. the Minister intends to do in respect of the recommendations made in that report. I want to know from the hon. the Minister what steps he intends taking to alleviate the position that is highlighted in this report. I do not want to read it out, but it stands there as a serious indictment of inactivity in this field. It fully confirms the situation that I have just quoted at this clinic, namely a drastic shortage in all the big urban areas. I want to know from the hon. the Minister what he intends doing, not only in the long term, but also in the short term, because this matter has now reached an urgent stage. Obviously there has to be long-term planning to put this whole matter straight for the years that lie ahead, but I am also interested in what the hon. the Minister will do in the next six months or the next year to alleviate the position in my area to which I have especially referred.

As far as I can ascertain, there have been negotiations for a very long time in respect of dental clinics with the hope, perhaps, that something would be achieved. These negotiations break down because there is never any clarity as to who must ultimately accept the financial responsibility. Is it the local authority? Is it the provincial authority? Or is it possibly the Department of Health?

What is this?

For dental services. I am still on dental services. I have consulted all the authorities that I could, and now I am talking to the hon. the Minister. He is the final authority, the final arbitrator in this matter. The Schumann and Borckenhagen reports are about the longest reports I have ever read, but I could not find anything authoritive in them. Now we have this report on dental services, and it makes it fairly clear, I think, that the financial responsibility rests fairly and squarely on this hon. Minister’s broad shoulders. If that is so, when can we possibly hope to see a little action? If the hon. the Minister does not clearly state what the position is, we will have a period of complete inaction ahead of us, because the local authorities will sit back and say that they are not going to do anything because this is a State health matter. Provincial authorities will take the same attitude and we shall find that no progress whatsoever will be made. I think that if the Minister and his department are going to take the responsibility he should say so, so that this particular aspect of the matter can be completely cleared up. I accept that the local authority will have to continue to play an important part. It will most probably have to provide the infrastructure. I realize that the question of money is the limiting factor. What concerns me even more is that on the present Estimates there is absolutely no provision for any extended services. In 1971 already it was reported that they could not undertake anything more in this regard because there was not sufficient money. Now, in the Vote for 1972.—the Vote we are consiring now—there seems to be even less money available. Is one in a position really to expect that anything more can be achieved unless this hon. Minister has a confrontation with the hon. Minister of Finance with a view to having more money set aside for this very vital field?

I realize too that finance is not the only problem. It will be no use having the clinics established without the personnel to man them. It is therefore pertinent to ask what steps the hon. the Minister is taking to see that sufficient non-White people do become trained as dentists to provide the services which are urgently required by these people. As far as I could find out very little progress has been made in this respect. I think we are entitled to know from the hon. the Minister what steps he intends to take. Obviously, with a view to long-term planning this will play a vital role, namely the training of non-Whites to deal with the dental requirements of the non-White people themselves. I believe that at the Witwatersrand University at the present time there is only one Coloured man who is training to be a dentist. Where will this lead us? And we should not forget that in Port Elizabeth there are 200 000 Bantu people. I think if we did a survey of their teeth we would be surprised to find the enormity of the problem that exists. And there we have no Bantu dentists at all. We have a special problem in Port Elizabeth. We have no medical faculty, although I believe the hon. the Minister may promise us one. I think it is going to come out of his little magic bag. We hope for a medical faculty and even more so, for a dental faculty. But perhaps he may consider some plan to help our clinics get off the ground. Some of these students that are training could perhaps be flown out to our area to help in these clinics as part of their training. Something drastic of that nature will have to be undertaken.

This is really the essence of my plea. I hope that the hon. the Minister will give this matter clear consideration, but above all that he will give us a clear answer in this debate as to what the position is so that the local authorities can in future know what the plan of campaign will be and on whose shoulders responsibility rests. Above all, I think the hon. the Minister should take the responsibility to see that he with his authority gets something effective off the ground.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Walmer spoke for the most part about dental services in South Africa and what is wrong with them. I think he will probably agree with us that the dental services available in South Africa exceed those available in the rest of Africa. It is rather remarkable that the United Party could only offer a small measure of criticism in this debate this afternoon. I think this is really a feather in the cap of the hon. the Minister and his department. The fact remains that they did, in fact, comment on matters of a topical nature, for instance, the cost of medicine and the question of malaria. I think the Minister will definitely reply to these comments, but I am surprised that a member such as the hon. member for Rosettenville, who knows how this department functions, could say the things he did about the reporting of malaria cases. I think the Department of Health is probably one of the best organized Government departments we have. So I want to express my appreciation this afternoon to the Secretary and his staff. This department is for the most part concerned with functions in connection with the health of the nation. I think that one must really congratulate the Department of Health when one considers the mortality rate, which is decreasing gradually, the life expectancy, which is on the increase, the infant mortality rate which is dropping all the time among all the racial groups and the fact that we seldom, if ever, experience severe epidemics in South Africa. A further indication is the fact that almost 8 per cent of our total population consists of elderly people. These are the people who will in future make more and more use of the services provided by the State in the sphere of geriatric medicine. However, this does not mean that we have a perfect department in every respect. For this reason it has become necessary to improve even further this high standard we are setting as far as health in South Africa is concerned. That is why the Minister has thought it proper to have the whole of the Health Act of 1911, as amended through the years, rewritten. The Select Committee is carrying out this task at present, and I think this could only be to the advantage of health in South Africa generally.

We are also proud of our medical profession in South Africa. This profession is one which as proved to be capable of showing the way in respect of practically every facit of medicine in the world, not only in the surgical field, but also in the field of immunological research as well as the new medical techniques. The medical profession, which has been respected through the years, and which acts with autonomy, is naturally subject to certain limitations, viz. the principles of the Hippocratic Oath and the self-discipline instituted by the medical profession and applied by the Medical Council. For that reason instructions cannot easily be given to such a self-disciplining profession at statutory level. We can hardly tell these people how to conduct their profession. But in view of rendering a better service and considerations of cost in connection with medical expenses, we merely ask whether certain aspects of the conduct of the medical profession should not, after all, be scrutinized. The fact remains—and this question of the high cost of medicine has been discussed in great detail here this afternoon —that to my mind there are certain shortcomings in respect of certain other aspects not covered by the report of the Snyman Commission and which were not mentioned here this afternoon either.

It has been said here this afternoon that there are too many preparations on the market. When one consults the “Monthly Index of Medical Specialities” one finds that more than 2 000 preparations are mentioned there. These do not include the ordinary B.P. preparations which are also still being made to a large extent. I am of the opinion that there is a large measure of overlapping, as far as the use of these preparations is concerned, which must inevitably lead to unnecessary expenses. There is another aspect which I think is also an important one. Although we do not want to tell the medical profession what to do, it has become common practice with the Sick Fund of the South African Railways and Harbours, as well as with certain other medical funds, for certain preparations to be prescribed, but I want to suggest that the quantities prescribed must also be indicated. Because, Sir, I am of the opinion that in many cases excessive quantities of certain types of medicine are prescribed by doctors and not taken. One can walk into any home today and find numerous half-empty medicine bottles. The amount of money spent on medicines which are not used must be tremendous.

Then there is the other aspect of excessive treatment. I think, for example, how frequently antibiotics are prescribed for common colds. Probably the public is also to be blamed in this respect, because everybody wants only the best these days. In other words, they sometimes compel the doctor to prescribe antibiotics where it is probably not necessary to do so.

Then I want to draw attention to the serious abuse of the use of vitamins. Vitamins are only effective in the body when taken in small quantities. It is a fact that serious poisoning of the body may occur as a result of the excessive intake of vitamins. This is another factor which results in heavy expenses.

Then there is the factor of placebos which are liberally used and prescribed. Although placebos may have a salutary effect in certain psychological cases, excessive use is too frequently made of them.

I also want to ask that attention be given to uniformity in connection with the cost of medicine, because I simply cannot understand why here in Cape Town the very same preparations sometimes cost up to one-third or even more of the price paid for them elsewhere. This matter should be rectified by the pharmaceutical profession and it should receive the attention of the Department of Health.

I want to raise another matter, and I do so with some hesitation because this necessarily reflects on the professional judgment of our medical practitioners. This matter concerns the unnecessary and excessive special examinations carried out. You know, Sir, special examinations are extremely costly. I feel that far too many unnecessary X-rays are taken. I suggest that far too many and unnecessary blood tests are carried out in the medical profession today. It is a fact that the medical practitioner should probably again be allowed to make a special attempt to develop his clinical diagnostic ability. The time when the medical practitioner had this clinical diagnostic ability, when he was unable to carry out these special examinations, is fast becoming something of the past. For this reason I very much want to raise this matter, although I know that I am treading on dangerous ground because we should not like to restrict the professional judgment and the right of self-determination of the medical practitioner. [Time expired.]