Mr. Speaker, I move—

At the outset, Mr. Speaker, I should like, on behalf of the Council of the University of the Orange Free State, to express appreciation for your having decided to allow this private measure to be dealt with as though it were a public Bill. I should also like to convey my thanks to your staff, Mr. Speaker, for their friendly and thorough assistance. In terms of subsection (1) of Section 7 of the University of the Orange Free State (Private) Act, No. 21 of 1949, the rector and three elected members of the Senate have representation as full-fledged members on the Council of the University. Apart from the said three members of the Senate, no professor, lecturer or other teacher of the University may be elected as a member of the Council—according to the existing statutory provision. However, there is nothing to prevent other members of the administrative staff or even other persons who receive a salary or remuneration from the University being elected or appointed to the Council.

Such a situation is not considered to be in the interests of good administration and conduct of the University, and an amendment is necessary.

At the same time the hon. the Minister of National Education and his department endorse the principle contained in the Bill which is now before the House and which means that no member of the academic staff and no person who receives a salary or remuneration from the University, may be appointed or elected as a member of the Council of the University—subject to the exceptions as are already contained by implication in the constitution of the Council, viz. in respect of the rector and three members of the Senate. A similar provision is, for example, contained in the University of the Witwatersrand (Private) Act, No. 15 of 1959.

In conclusion I want to state that the proposed amendment will not prejudice any sitting member of the Council.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the United Party I want to state that we support this amendment Bill. Our standpoint is that a university is an autonomous body and has the power to decide on this matter. The principles contained in this Bill have also been laid down in the statutes of other universities, and if they meet with their approval, we would be the last to oppose this principle in respect of the University of the Orange Free State. We support this Bill.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Committee Stage taken without debate.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Chairman, when this debate was adjourned last night, I was referring to the question of the steel price. I had also dealt with the question of profits and losses and pointed out their possible effect on steel producers. Hon. members will recall that when this matter was discussed on a certain occasion earlier this session, the hon. member for Johannesburg North was one of the people who pleaded for a further increase in the steel price, even after the 25% increase we had introduced in the price of steel. I just want to refer to the report of the Highveld Steel and Vanadium Corporation, the report by its chairman, in which he says (translation)—

He goes on to say—

†Mr. Chairman, I mention this to show that this steel corporation in fact showed an increased profit of 49% in its most recent year. I do not think that there is anything particularly wrong with the price of steel as far as that particular corporation is concerned although I say immediately that vanadium was also involved.

I want to deal with what I believe to be a very important point affecting Iscor and affecting all the public corporations, or, as some people prefer to call them, the semipublic corporations. I am referring to an issue in regard to which I have been criticized a good deal this session. It was alleged that I withheld certain information which I should have made available, particularly as far as Iscor was concerned. My argument is very clear; I believe that I have acted with the fullest sense of responsibility, and I believe that I have acted absolutely properly in this respect, and I am going to give you my reasons, Sir.

In the first place there is all the world of difference between a public enterprise set up and conducted as a direct department of State with a Minister at its head, a department of State, such as the South African Railways or the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. That Minister, of course, sits in Parliament and sits in the Cabinet. The Budget, the whole financial plan, of that enterprise and everything that goes with it has to be presented to Parliament and Parliament, of course, has every opportunity to scrutinize it in great detail; that is perfectly clear. But, Sir, when you come to a so-called semi-public corporation like Iscor, you have a very different type of ownership and a very different type of enterprise. There you have a semi-public enterprise. The whole question of public accountability is at least one important step removed from the type of public accountability that applies to a direct department of State which operates as a business—an undertaking like the Railways, for example. Take Iscor. What is the position there? It was set up by Parliament. It is a statutory body with its own board of directors, whether all of the directors are appointed by the Government or only some by the Government. Once those directors have been appointed, they are absolutely autonomous. I could no more prescribe to the board of Iscor what decision they should take on any matter than I could prescribe to the man in the moon.

Sir, if I were a director of Iscor, I would certainly wish to take account of the broad direction of Government policy, for that if I took decisions which went against the board direction of Government policy affecting that type of operation, I would have to be quite sure that I knew what I was doing and I would have to have very sound reasons; but nothing could stop the board of Iscor taking any decisions which they deem fit; that is perfectly clear. Sir, the Budget, the financial statement, the whole basis on which this corporation is to operate in the year ahead, is not presented to Parliament; it never has been and never will be, just as the Budgets or balance sheets or profit and loss statements or capital budgets of public companies would not be presented to Parliament. [Interjections.] Sir, my hon. friends are talking a little bit soon. As you know, Sir, Iscor also has private shareholders. I was coming to that point.

The controlling shareholder is the Government.

Sir, my hon. friend must listen. It is perfectly clear that this corporation which I am talking about, a semi-public corporation set up by Act of Parliament with an absolutely autonomous board, can have only public shareholders if the Government has supplied all its capital and holds all its shares. In the case of Iscor—and several other corporations—there may be and are private shareholders as well, shareholders in exactly the same sense as shareholders of Anglo-American or any other company. Sir, what is the sanction operating there which does not operate anywhere else? It is exactly the same. How can I go and give information about this corporation, which the shareholders of a public company would regard as completely improper, if there were private shareholders involved? Sir, it is not only I who say this, as my hon. friends will find if they take the time and the opportunity to study this very large subject. Sir, if I may make a personal allusion here, which I do in complete modesty, I want to remind them that public finance has been my subject for 30 years. If you read the great authorities on public finance you will find that these things are spelt out in crystal-clear terms. Has my hon. friend ever heard of the great Italian authority, De Viti de Marco? If he has not, he must not start interrupting me. These matters have been studied for a very long time and there are world authorities on these issues, and they spell out the fundamental difference between an enterprise which is owned and operated as a direct department of State, directly under a Cabinet Minister, and a semi-public corporation which is a legal persona in its own right and is a company in the best sense of the term; it is a joint stock company; there is the world of difference, and the whole question of financial accountability and accountability for policy is completely different. When Parliament sets up this type of corporation, it says that it is going to use public money, and therefore there must be a responsibility to Government, and that is why Iscor—I come back to Iscor, because Iscor has been hammered here for how many months—has to put up an annual report which is tabled in Parliament and which every member sees. Iscor is responsible under our set-up in South Africa to the Minister of Economic Affairs in matters of policy. They have to account to the Minister, and on broad matters of policy I keep this House informed. I read that report with the greatest care to see that it is a meaningful report, and when hon. members come and ask me what the capital budget is for the Sishen/Saldanha railway line, I give them that information. Even when they come and ask how many sub-stations another corporation, Escom, is going to put up, I give them that information too. But I say that it is no part of my responsibility, and I believe that it would be absolutely wrong for me to give the details of the capital involved in every one of those sub-stations. Sir, I will quote authorities in a moment to justify the attitude I have taken and which has been adopted in this House right from the beginning. Sir, I can go further; I have nothing to do with the day-to-day running of Iscor.

Thank goodness.

That’s all right, Sir. We are accustomed to that sort of remark from that hon. member. I am trying to talk seriously because that hon. member and some members of his party have shown a confusion here which is not exactly to their credit. But let me leave it at that. The position is that I have nothing to do with the day-to-day administration or the running of this corporation. It would be absolutely wrong for me to try to interfere, and I want to say here that a number of the questions which have been put to me at question time in this House by Opposition members, and particularly by the hon. member for Johannesburg North, have gone well beyond the bounds of what would be proper questioning on this matter. If they do not want to accept my view, which is founded on a very long study, let us have a look at some of the great constitutional authorities. What does Erskine May say? Has the hon. member for Yeoville heard of him?

Never.

This is what Erskine May says in his famous definitive work—

In other words, bodies like Iscor—

Safety; that is what a Minister could deal with—

Even on the annual reports of the industries, which are tabled—

What about policy matters?

Then I come to Taylor’s famous work The House of Commons at Work, the 7th edition, where he says—

Just as we are doing in this country—

That is the Act which nationalized these industries and constituted the corporations—

Are there not Select Committees for this purpose?

Now, let us go a little bit further and let us look at this question of the refusal to reply, while we are dealing with this, because when I, on the grounds of public policy, the other day said I was not in a position to answer, the hon. member for Walmer immediately asked why not. He wanted to know the reasons. Let us just look at this while we have it in front of us. Here is Ralph Kilpin, perhaps the leading authority on these matters in South Africa. On page 80 of his Parliamentary Procedure in South Africa he says—

He goes on to say that an identical or a similar question may not be asked again either of him or of any other Minister. Then, Sir, you know precedent is important on our affairs. What have other Ministers said in these matters? In 1958, for example, a member here, Mr. Cope, asked the Minister of Economic Affairs a long list of questions affecting Escom, a public corporation, questions not unlike the sort of questions which the hon. member for Johannesburg North was asking me in detail—not the same questions but a long list, and the Minister of Economic Affairs replied in 1958—

And then, more recently, in 1972, the then Minister of Economic Affairs was asked a number of questions about another matter affecting Iscor and his answer was this—

I can read many other answers in similar vein, such as have been allowed in this House over the years. I just want to add that as far as the semis plant is concerned, about which I have been asked questions too, particularly by the hon. member for Walmer, the position is perfectly clear, as I attempted to state yesterday, namely that that is an international company. It is not Iscor; Iscor is only one shareholder, and I would no more be entitled to disclose particulars of that organization’s affairs than I would be to disclose those of any public company. If the hon. member as a shareholder of some company wishes to disclose particulars, that is up to him and he can then deal with the body of shareholders and the directors in any way he sees fit.

May I ask a question? Has the hon. the Minister the passage there from Erskine May in which he deals with the voting of funds for a public corporation and the asking of an explanation in connection with the voting of funds, because in respect of the voting of funds, Sir, will the Minister not concede that there we are entitled to ask how the funds are to be spent?

Mr. Chairman, I think that does not arise, because I have not refused to give an answer. In fact, when the question of Iscor’s capitalization was before the House in a previous Bill, I gave a great deal of information. In fact, I gave more information than I thought I should really give. However, I decided to provide all that information, on the whole plan, covering the next 10 years. I gave a breakdown of the position in considerable detail. I mentioned the funds which would be used for share capital and said that the balance would be loan capital. I explained the whole relationship, so I do not think that that arises at all. That is not an issue that is before us. I have not refused to reply to questions.

*Mr. Chairman, I have to hurry, but there is one remaining matter to which I must refer. This, too, is in connection with Iscor. I think hon. members will know what I am referring to. I am referring to the scandalous allegations that have been made in this House and in this beautiful country over the past few months in regard to corruption on the part of members of Iscor’s staff. These allegations of corruption were extremely serious and extremely scandalous, and they still are.

†Mr. Chairman, corruption is an extremely serious matter, and I think nobody would wish to take a stronger line against corruption in public life—and that covers the whole gamut of the Public Service and public corporations, as well as anybody concerned with them—than this Government. But there is one thing which is more serious and which is worse than corruption, and that is to accuse an innocent man or an innocent organization of corruption. You may remember, Sir, how the hon. member for Sea Point raised this matter. The things he had to say were so important and so urgent to him that he asked for the adjournment of the House. He could only deal with this matter in a snap debate, which immediately of course drew tremendous publicity, as anyone could imagine it would. The mere fact that you have a snap debate immediately must draw the attention of the Press and everybody interested in public life in South Africa. The hon. member said some remarkable things. Talking about Saldanha, he said that what had happened was “enough to make the hair stand on end of anyone who is concerned with orderly development in the public interest”. He went on to say (Hansard, col. 2096)—

Hon. members know how the hon. member for Sea Point put this case. He proceeded to demand a judicial commission of inquiry to investigate this matter. Now, the moment you ask for a judicial commission of inquiry, you are quite clearly saying that this is a matter of the gravest public concern. What could be more serious than a matter which a man says demands an immediate judicial inquiry, an inquiry by a judge or more than one judge if necessary? Sir, that was the position put before this House. I had 12 minutes in which to answer this, but I said that we had done our best to find out what was happening. I said that at that moment I did not have any prima facie evidence of any irregularity or any corruption by anyone who was connected with Iscor in that whole area. I said, however, that if any hint of that sort came to me, I would immediately move that proper inquiry be made. This matter has been going on for quite a long time. It moved from Saldanha to Newcastle in Natal. Some very dreadful things were said about Newcastle, and just lately

What do you say about it?

I am going to refer to that. Just lately it has moved to Rosslyn, because questions have been put on the Order Paper in which information is asked about Iscor at Rosslyn. I must deal with this matter here because if I do not do it, I shall be told that I cannot answer about what has happened elsewhere in matters affecting Iscor. Obviously I have to deal with this matter now. The hon. Senator Crook in dealing with Newcastle and the operations there and the buying of land by Iscor, said this in the Other Place on 9 September—

He went on to say—

Of course, I never said that. I said that if I received any evidence of any kind pointing to that, I would have an inquiry made.

Order! In terms of Standing Order No. 110 the hon. the Minister is not allowed to refer to a speech made in the Senate during the same session.

Then I shall not read from it. I shall merely draw attention to what the hon. the Senator said there. He went on to make it perfectly clear, as he said, that what had happened at Newcastle was infinitely more serious than what had happened in the Faros scandal. We know of course how very grave that was and what the outcome was. We all know that a number of people have been put in goal as a result of the Faros case. Clearly, when he said the he had evidence of corruption among people high and people low at Newcastle, he was making the gravest possible allegation of corruption. Of course, the Press jumped on to all this just as they had jumped on to the hon. member for Sea Point’s allegations. I could not possibly bring all the Press cuttings I have because they form a file probably two feet thick. However, I have never in my experience seen such a sustained and hostile campaign on the part of the Press as happened after these allegations. It has been an exceptionally serious matter and I could say as much as I liked, bring me just a tittle or a jot of evidence, which may even be prima facie evidence, pointing to corruption and I shall see to it that an inquiry is made. But I could not get such evidence although I asked Senator Crook to give it to me. I pointed out to him that if he said that, he must produce the evidence. I said that I would then consider having an inquiry, but he refused. I challenged him in the Senate to give me that evidence. He said that he had it. He then said that it arose …

Order! The hon. the Minister is not allowed to refer to a debate which took place in the Senate during this session while the session is still in progress.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, but this is making it rather difficult for me. I shall abide by your ruling. I think I could still put my case by referring to it because these things appeared in the Press left, right and centre. The hon. Senator told me he would say it outside the Senate. He said quite clearly that this evidence he had arose from an attorney-client relationship, he being the attorney, and that he was consequently not prepared to make it available. He said he would only make it available before a judicial commission of inquiry. What then happened was that we had some extremely serious Press comment and Press reports. The Star from Johannesburg, for instance, on September 13 had huge headlines: “Crook has evidence of Iscor scandal.” The Daily News of Natal on 4 September carried the headline “The Shambles of Saldanha”, and shambles was not even placed in inverted commas. The Cape Times of course issued a number of leading articles demanding of me that I appoint a judicial commission of inquiry. The Daily News of 17 September had “Confirm that Iscor leak” in huge letters right across the top of the page, and then they went on to make all sorts of extremely serious statements involving Iscor. The Sunday Tribune of 15 September carried the headline “I paid R25 000 in Iscor tipoff—farmer ready to give evidence”. So it went on. Here I have another example, a huge headline in The Daily News as follows: “Newcastle secret land deal shock.” “Mr. Y’s widow speaks.” This has been quite unprecedented. People I have spoken to with wide experience in these matters have said they have never seen anything like it. When this allegation was made in The Sunday Tribune, “I paid R25 000 in Iscor tip-off”, the hon. the Minister of Justice and I got together because we felt this thing had gone much too far and we decided we would immediately ask the Police to conduct an absolutely thorough inquiry into all these allegations that were being made about what was supposed to have happened at Newcastle. The Police carried out an investigation on which they have worked for a long time. They made an extremely thorough inquiry and the police dossier was handed to the Minister of Justice a short while ago. Incidentally, one of the documents in the hands of the police is a statement that was made by the hon. Senator Crook on this matter. A document from the Commissioner of the S.A. Police, dated 17 October, tells me that this whole dossier was put before the Attorney-General of Natal after the very full inquiry had been completed.

*It was laid before the Attorney-General of Natal. The Commissioner of Police reported as follows to me and to the Minister of Justice (translation)—

I do not want to say much more about this matter. I kindly requested the hon. Senator on several occasions to let me have the evidence so that I could examine it and order an inquiry. The Police have conducted a very thorough investigation under the guidance of a senior officer, and I want to read again what was said by the Attorney-General—

†I just want to say …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Does the hon. the Minister not regard his own allegations in respect of Newcastle as prima facie evidence warranting an inquiry?

I made no allegations whatsoever. When the question of the excessive prices paid at Saldanha was raised, the excessive prices referred to by my hon. friend, the member for Sea Pont, I dealt with a number of instances on 3 September in this House—it is in my Hansard—to show what sort of prices were paid under those conditions when a big development scheme started taking root. I referred to Richards Bay, Prospection, Saldanha Bay and Newcastle. One of the instances I gave—I gave a whole number of them—was that Senator Crook had bought land in the Newcastle area for R25 000 which in a short time he sold for R600 000. I made that as a statement of fact and I stand by it.

That is not true.

I absolutely stand on this. If that hon. member says it is not true, he is going to be called to account.

When did he get that option?

It came from the Deeds Office. I am not talking about the option; let us get this clear. [Interjections.] The hon. member sitting there must be careful not to discredit himself and make a fool of himself. I know what I am talking about; does he know what happened? Why does he not get the facts?

We know the facts.

You do not know the facts. I will tell hon. members the facts. Whether there was an option for 20 years or 100 years makes no difference. The Deeds Office shows that that piece of land which was bought for R25 000 was sold within 18 months for R600 000. [Interjections.] Let me tell the hon. member that on two separate occasions senior people have been to that Deeds Office and have given me a verbatim account of those transactions with the relevant dates. But the hon. member says I am wrong.

You have not even got the full facts.

I am saying that the hon. Senator Crook purchased land for R25 000 and that he sold it for R600 000. I challenge that hon. member to say that it is wrong.

He was given the option for R25 000.

I challenge that hon. member to say that it is wrong.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question?

No. Please sit down. I am dealing now with this hon. member who has told me that I do not know what I am talking about. I take the strongest exception to this when I have gone out of my way …

I don’t care what exception you take.

Of course not; you are not fit to sit in the House because you talk about things you know nothing about.

Order! The hon. the Minister must withdraw the words “unfit to sit in the House”.

Only my extreme respect for the Chair persuades me to … [Interjections.] I withdraw them.

You are not even an elected member.

Order! If hon. members refuse to give the hon. the Minister a chance to finish his speech properly I shall have to forbid all interjections.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, is a member such as the hon. member for Jeppe entitled to say “You are not even an elected member of this House”?

The hon. the Minister may proceed.

I may say that I fully expected this today. I knew it would happen. Let us see what the facts are. Don’t let us get diverted by this sort of outburst of extreme bad manners in this House. Let us stick to the facts. What are the facts? The facts are that the most scandalous allegations have been made against Iscor that have ever been made in public life in this country. It has been a sustained attack. It was not just a fly-by-night attack which was then dropped; it went on for months. The newspapers—I have given only a few examples—went so far as to draw an analogy between this and Faros. In a leading article on 2 September the Daily News even put this on a par with Watergate. In other words, presumably I, or somebody else, was trying to cover up a scandal. So it went on. You ought to see the things that were written. I am not prepared to hear this talk about Iscor and evade my responsibility. I am responsible for Iscor now and am not prepared to see Iscor’s name dragged through the mud by people who are not fit to tie the shoelaces of the members of Iscor’s board or its senior management. I will stick to my guns and see this thing cleared up. For the hon. member to tell me that Senator Crook did not pay R25 000 for that land and sell it for R600 000 is a perfect disgrace in this House.

Who said that?

Order! I have appealed to hon. members before not to make so many interjections.

I say it is a perfect disgrace.

Could I ask the hon. the Minister a question?

I have already told the hon. member that he has had his turn to speak. I am speaking now. He spoke yesterday, and he said a great deal about Iscor. I am now replying. I have to make haste, for there are other Votes still waiting to be discussed. However, I cannot leave this matter at that.

†Sir, this is what is happening; this is what has been going on. Watergate has been dragged in. Iscor has been put on a par with the Faros affair, which was a very grave matter. I have just heard that the hon. Senator Crook has apparently made another statement to the Police. I have not seen that statement, and I have not heard what is the Attorney-General’s view on it. The fact is simply that Senator Crook earlier made a statement which he gave to the Police. The Police collected a number of affidavits and made a very deep study of the whole matter. On the strength of that, on 17 October the Attorney-General said he could find nothing which would warrant these matters being taken further, let alone a judicial commission of inquiry.

We cannot go on like this. I want to tell the House that there are a few people—I say this with a full sense of responsibility—in public life who owe this House and the Other Place an unreserved apology. I believe there are certain people who have to withdraw unreservedly certain statements they have made. If they do not, they are going to stand discredited in the public life of this country. Just as the public of this country will not put up with corruption, and quite rightly will always react in the most serious manner to genuine allegations and proof of corruption, so those same people—if I know South Africans—are not going to stand for false evidence and for false witnesses of corruption which has not taken place. I have said this all along.

Say that outside the House!

Say what outside the House?

That those are false statements.

Is the hon. member saying that he agrees with what has been said about Iscor? Is that what he is trying to tell me?

Say it outside the House.

I think it is very disgraceful of the hon. member to say that. Sir, I know what my responsibilities are, and I say that it is absolutely incumbent on certain people to make a public apology and withdraw these dreadful allegations of corruption which cannot be proved. As for the hon. member for Umlazi, who is an ex-senior officer of the Police to sit there and wave his hands … I think he should not make a fool of himself on this issue.

Anyway, let me come back to the point. What about those newspapers that have carried this matter to the four corners of the earth and have issued dreadful statements of “secret land deals”, “corruption”, “scandals” and everything else that has been published in huge letters, not to talk of the dozens of leading articles attacking me, the Government and everybody connected with Iscor? They have even attacked me for not instituting a commission of inquiry. But I have no prima facie case whatever. What about all these accusations? Let us see what the papers do about this matter. Will the papers give publicity to the statement of the Attorney-General which I have just read? Will they give publicity to it also in letters two inches deep? Will they put it on the front pages?

One of the most appalling aspects of this matter, as I stand here, is the attitude of a few hon. members opposite me. For these hon. members to adopt the attitude they have adopted, is absolutely deplorable. Here are innocent people being accused of the gravest corruption, worse than the Faros scandal; and what are some of these hon. members doing? They are trying to ridicule me for pointing out these facts. I think the whole House will take note of that. As a matter of fact, I think notice will be taken of that in far more places than in this House. This Government is a responsible Government despite the things said by hon. members opposite. This Government as an honourable Government has standards and this Government is not prepared to let this sort of thing continue.

Hear, hear!

We will not let this continue. My hon. friends may say that I have said this before. If this session had not been in its dying moments, they would see in black and white what I am talking about. [Interjections.] I give the assurance today—there are some of my colleagues in the Cabinet present—that as soon as it can be done in the next session you will see what is going to be done about this. [Interjections.] Steps will be taken …

You make me nervous.

You are stupid, not nervous.

You see, Sir, we continue to have this irresponsible attitude. I am not interested in whether that hon. member is nervous or not. I am interested in the fact that no unjust accusations will be made against people who cannot defend themselves, i.e. public servants, Iscor and Iscors Board, and the boards of other public corporations. I am not going to see them accused unjustly of corruption, whether that hon. member likes it or not. I can assure you, Sir, that steps have already been taken to put before this House a measure which will show quite clearly what we will do. This sort of thing will not happen again. [Interjections.] Let me put it like this, if it does, then even that bombastic hon. member at the back, if he tries it, will find himself in so much trouble that he will not know what to do. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, may the hon. the Minister refer to another hon. member as “bombastic”? [Interjections.]

Order! That can be construed as a personal remark and accordingly I would appreciate it if the hon. the Minister would withdraw the word “bombastic”.

If you want me to withdraw the word “bombastic”, Sir, I do so. [Interjections.]

Order!

I repeat that a measure will be put before this House. It will be a perfectly democratic measure that will be dealt with by legal officers, and all parties concerned will have all the legal protection they have under our system. But it is bound to be an extremely effective measure aimed at putting an end to this type of thing. These are absolutely unjustified allegations of a scandal.

*Mr. Chairman, I do not want to prolong this debate unduly. I have stated my case. I want to express my sincere thanks to hon. members, those on this side in particular, for their contributions, and I also want to thank those members on the other side of the House who made positive contributions. I have not been able to reply to all the points that were made, but I have made notes of all the arguments and I shall gladly go into them with my officials at a later stage. Finally, I should like to express my appreciation to Mr. M. A. du Plessis, who has retired as the Secretary for Industries since the last discussion on the Vote of the Minister of Economic Affairs. I want to thank him sincerely for the excellent service which he rendered over a period of many years. I want to wish him all the best for the future. At the same time I want to express my sincere thanks to all the officials of my two departments for the work they have done and the way in which they have done it. I have the greatest appreciation for what they do, and in particular I want to extend my sincere congratulations to the new Secretary for Industries, Mr. Theron, on his appointment. I am quite sure that all will be well with the Department of Industries under his guidance as Secretary.

Mr. Chairman, may I say that the case for an inquiry into the points which I raised in connection with land transactions at Saldanha has never been better demonstrated than by the performance of the hon. the Minister here this afternoon. The hon. the Minister must realize that bluster, personal attacks, innuendoes and threats are no substitute for meeting argument with argument. If the public has been concerned about the performance of this Minister in particular, then I believe that the public is even more concerned as a result of his attacks on individual members of this House last night and again today. Sir, the hon. the Minister does what he has done consistently; he hides behind Iscor and the other public corporations

Get your facts right.

He is the Minister responsible. We are not asking for an investigation into Iscor on its own; we are asking for an investigation into the whole association of his department with the Saldanha project, and the hon. the Minister knows this. He knows, as I have pointed out time and again in this House and in public, that he is hiding behind Iscor. This is an association that Iscor is faced with; it has to deal with and through the Government; it has to deal with and through large departments. People outside Iscor are brought into the situation prior to Iscor’s being able to make decisions.

The public do not believe you. Sit down.

Order! The hon. member for Newcastle should refrain from making constant interjections.

Sir, if there have been newspaper headlines about this, it is a reflection of public concern. Let the Minister realize that there is public concern. [Interjection.]

You have no respect for the facts.

Order! I have asked the hon. member for Newcastle to refrain from making constant interjections. He should please respect the Chair.

Sir, I am not getting involved with the allegations of Senator Crooks with regard to Newcastle; I have nothing to do with that. But the Minister knows that in response to questions he himself revealed that certain individual speculators, not farmers but certain individual speculators, made vast profits at the taxpayers’ expense in the Saldanha area. We believe that there is sufficient in that information to justify a further probe. Mr. Chairman, we have not made specific allegations of corruption against any particular organization, but what we have said is that when you take this matter in its entirety there must be something wrong with the system; there must be some inside trading; there must be some inside information which has allowed individuals to make money at the taxpayers’ expense. Sir, I want to make this quite clear. I am supported in this by Mr. M. D. Marais who is a director of Iscor and who said that

Then he went on to say that he

Sir, it is not members of this House who are saying this; this is a director of Iscor saying that people outside of Iscor might have gained secret information. I believe therefore that there is a case not for an investigation of Iscor per se but for an investigation into the whole of the circumstances surrounding both the Government’s decision, the decision of various departments and the activities which preceded the purchase of land in that area.

Sir, I want to make another point to the hon. the Minister. I think it is reprehensible that he should have attacked the hon. member for Johannesburg North in the personal terms in which he did last week. I sense that the Minister gets an inferiority complex when he has to deal with the hon. member for Johannesburg North. Sir, this House has long wanted more people with expert knowledge in the field of commerce of industry and of mining, and when such an expert comes to this House the hon. the Minister accuses him, by innuendo, of not declaring his interests, of failing to disclose his interests, and he suggests that he should not raise certain matters because of his business interests. Sir, what about all the other hon. members? What about the hon. the Minister of Agriculture? He is a well-known farmer. So, should he not talk about agricultural matters? [Interjection.] There is a gentleman here who know about pharmacy. Should he not have anything to say about that field? What about the doctors who can speak about medicine? Here is a man who comes with expertise, with a certain experience in application, a man who can speak with knowledge and authority. This is an asset to this House and should be an asset to the hon. the Minister. I want to say that in attacking this hon. member in the personal way he did, the hon. minister gave commerce and industry right throughout South Africa a slap in the face. We should be encouraging business leaders to come into this House to give of their expertise, but instead of welcoming the constructive criticism that can come from the hon. member from Johannesburg North, the hon. the Minister dismisses this by way of personal innuendo. I want to say to the hon. the Minister it is about time he forgot himself; it is about time that he forgot his own importance in this situation. It is about time that he dealt with facts and put the real issues of the South African economy first, because co-operation between the semi-public corporations, this Government and the private sector of South Africa, is important for the economic development of this country. But it will not take place when this Minister continues in the secretive way in which he has continued in the course of this session, or if he engages in personal attacks on hon. members on this side of the House.

I suppose I have heard a few pathetic contributions in this House in the time I have been here, but I cannot think that I have heard anything more pathetic than what I have just listened to—for this reason: The hon. member had an opportunity to get up and to withdraw these very grave allegations he made. Let him not tell this House that he did not attack Iscor, because I have his words. The hon. member is now saying he was not attacking Iscor, but now he is attacking everybody. That does not hold water. [Interjections.] Read his speech. I want to say to the hon. member that it is very easy to attack me. The hon. member could have got up and said that in so far as his grave allegations against Iscor were concerned, no possible, not even prima facie, evidence could be found to substantiate them and that he withdraws them. That would have been the honourable thing to do between us, but, Sir, he did not do it and so I must accept that he will not do it. I expected that. But, Sir, there is one point I want to comment on, and that is the hon. member’s extreme arrogance in pointing to me as having done anything to the detriment of the best interest of our economy, when almost every utterance that hon. member makes is to the detriment of our economy and of South Africa. [Interjections.]

Order!

You see, Sir, nobody can hide words that have been said. These things are on record. Just take Iscor and what the hon. member had to say here, and in the Press statements he issued, which carried the matter still further. At that moment Iscor was negotiating for important contracts for finance and for partners in this big venture at Saldanha, and the hon. member knew it. Does the hon. member think that this fantastic vendetta he started against Iscor has helped in those very important negotiations? [Interjections.] If the hon. member wants to call that in doubt, I will get the proof of it. Why, does the hon. member think, senior members of Iscor had to go abroad to reassure people over there on these issues?

*Then the hon. member has the audacity to tell me that I am the one who is not serving the best interests of the economy of South Africa, but I had to spend many hours and days on rectifying the misconceptions to which he had given rise. Sir, I leave the matter at that.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 42.—“Indian Affairs”:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to begin discussion on this Vote by offering my congratulations to the hon. the Minister in taking over this portfolio, which to him is a new responsibility. It is a responsibility for an important section of the South African community, representative as it is of a large number of people, an advanced group of people and a group of people who, as I shall show, are making rapid progress. I should like to say, though, that I hope the hon. the Minister occupies this portfolio rather longer than his predecessors did, because there is no portfolio which has had Ministers of a more transient kind than this one. I regret it, because I do believe that continuity in management, in interest, in direction of policy and in the unfolding of policy can only take place if the Minister concerned stays here for some time. I hope that the hon. the Minister, both by his own wish, because of his interest in his task, and by the efforts of the Prime Minister, will stay there for some years.

Secondly, I should like to compliment the hon. the Minister, or his department, rather, through him, on the report we have had for the year 1972-’73. I say this sincerely. The report is comprehensive, it is informative, and it presents a picture. I should like to say that whilst I have been concerned with Indian affairs, which goes back some years, I cannot recall a departmental report as well put together and as interesting to read as this one.

The opening section of that report reveals that there is a new dimension in Indian affairs today, because for the first time, with the demise of the last council at the end of August of this year, provision has been made for 15 elected members. The council has been increased from 25 to 30 members, half of whom are to be elected members. In the past, when we discussed this matter with the hon. gentleman’s predecessors, we had some difficulty in drawing from them the guidelines for the future. We wanted to know what their plans were regarding the future development of the council, the direction it would take, the additional powers which it would be given, the guidelines which would give us some idea of how soon these developments would take place, and indeed the stage at which this council would become fully elected. I hope that this Minister, embarking as he is on a new field, where he is taking over a new portfolio, will take the House into his confidence and give us some idea of how he sees developments taking in that field; because we are speaking—and I think the hon. the Minister will concede this—in a time when there is movement a foot in most spheres of public administration. I think that both the Indian community and this House are entitled to hear his views as to how this council will develop and what the guidelines are. I hope that in his reply he will also be able to tell us something of the various ad hoc committees of that council which have been set up in the various provinces. They are councils which have been, one might say, in abeyance for some time, but they have recently taken on a new lease of life and I should like to hear from him the fields in which they operate and what the intention is in this regard.

Further, Mr. Chairman, I should like to hear in his views and his statements on the development of the council, how he proposes to accommodate the social and religious points of view of the various groups which exist as known entities within the Indian community. It is apparent from this report—and I think one must say this in fairness—that there have been substantial developments in the Indian community socially, in the educational field and in the economic field during the period which is covered by this report. It is very interesting—and I think that the hon. the Minister will probably concede this—that the greatest advance appears to be taking place in Natal, to judge by the improvement in the educational or examination results. What interests me, because my party is associated with the provincial administration there, is that the greatest advance in the field of local government has taken place in Natal. From this report hon. members will see that all the fully elected town councils and local affairs committees are in Natal. I think this pays great tribute to Mr. Percy Fowle, who during this period of time administered the portfolio of local authorities in Natal and who has won the confidence of large sections of the Indian community, particularly for his work in the field of the development of local authorities. It is well known that in the federal philosophy of the United Party the Indian community has a distinct place. One is happy to say that one’s party has been able to make these developments because to an extent they fit in with the federal philosophy of the United Party. But things do not end there. There is a great tradition of self-help in the Indian community which can be seen in the extended family relationship which was for many years known and is still known in that community; self-help in respect of the aged and in respect of the infirm. I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he allows this tradition of self-help to operate in the field which comes under his administration. I wonder whether the hon. gentleman would not consider giving extended powers to the Indian Council at a much faster rate. Why should education not be extended as a power to the Indian Council? The control of education, and not only lower education, but higher education and within a short time the control of the Durban Westville University could be given to them. Education is a field in which the Indians have an intense interest. It is a field, as one can see from the department’s report, in which there have been tremendous developments, and now with the advent of a partially elected council one wonders whether the hon. the Minister could not outline for us a more rapid development towards the granting of that power to this council than we have had in the past. It would not only be the right thing to do, but I believe it would be a gesture of confidence and goodwill which would make the administration of that department and that community a good deal easier.

So far as the report is concerned, there are good aspects, as I have said, one of them being the easing of restrictions on inter-provincial movement. The figures in the report indicate that that has been very welcome and that it has been taken advantage of by the Indian community itself. So far as it goes it is welcomed. The military training for young Indian men is a matter to be welcomed. I wonder if the hon. the Minister could elaborate upon this. I know it is not specifically his department, but I am quite sure that the Department of Defence takes the advice of the hon. the Minister in this field. Are they to become an adjunct of our naval forces or of the army or of both? The uniform that they wear suggests that they are probably to be associated with the navy. We should like to hear more about this because the Indian community have both a naval and a military tradition.

The aspect of the administration by the Government of Indian affairs which is depressing as it emerges from this report, is the implementation of group areas. One has only to look at the number of displaced traders who have to find places elsewhere in all the provinces, but particularly in Natal and in the Transvaal, to realize that this is a burden which bears perhaps more heavily than any other on the Indian community. It is something which we regret very much indeed.

Finally, before my time expires, I want to ask whether the hon. the Minister can give us an indication of whether there has been any result of the committee of inquiry into the events surrounding the burning of the Indian market in Durban. The report suggests that there is an inquiry into how the impact of this can be alleviated. If the hon. the Minister can tell us more about this, I shall be glad to hear from him in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, I am of the opinion that the hon. member for Umhlatuzana made a positive speech, especially as far as the observations he made at the outset of his speech are concerned. I should like to associate myself with the congratulations he conveyed to the Minister. We on this side of the House would also like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on this, his handling of this Vote. We know that since his appointment as Minister he has done a great deal to acquaint himself with the various ramifications of the department. We wish to express the hope that his association with this department will be a fruitful one. I also want to associate myself with the hon. member in expressing appreciation for the informative report of the department.

On 4 February of this year, during the first session when he was still representing the constituency of Zululand, the hon. member had the following to say (Hansard, col. 70):

I want to ask the hon. member whether the Indians accept the policy of the United Party. Are the Indians in Natal, where the vast majority of the Indians of South Africa are living, in any way inclined to accept the policy of the United Party as it is contained in their federation plan and particularly as it has been conveyed to them by the hon. member, the leader of the United Party in Natal? During the by-election in Umhlatuzana the hon. member, specifically, made quite a number of adverse comments on the Indians. In his campaign against the Democratic Party he said at a meeting that the policy of the Democratic Party would lead to Indian domination of the Natal Provincial Council and local authorities. He went on to say that this would not be to the benefit of the Whites and Blacks. There was a tremendous reaction to that on the part of the Indian leaders in Natal and, inter alia, on the part of the two Indian newspapers, The Leader and The Graphic. On 26 June 1974 The Leader said the following, inter alia, in a leading article under the caption “A bankrupt party”:

I think this was with reference to a meeting he had held in Northdene.

I think that this, in any event, belies the hon. member’s claim to so-called acceptance by the Indians of the policy of the United Party.

When we discuss this Vote, it is always very pleasant for me to discuss educational matters. The hon. member has admitted, as even the fiercest critic of the Government has to do, that the progress made in the sphere of education since the take-over of education by the department in 1966 in Natal and in 1967 in the Transvaal has been phenomenal. One need only read Hansard to see what opposition to and destructive criticism there was at the time from the Opposition when the Indian education legislation of 1965 was being discussed. Hon. members need only look up the prophecies of doom which were made about what retrogression there would be in the standard of education in Natal. The very opposite happened. There was a tremendous increase in the number of pupils on the primary and secondary, and students on the tertiary levels. There was also a tremendous improvement as far as accommodation was concerned. The beautiful University of Durban Westville was established. There was also a tremendous increase in the number of teachers, and in addition teachers were better trained than in the past. Then, too, there was the free and compulsory education which was announced last year. The general level of education also improved. There were improvements in examination results, and many others. In addition to this the harmonious co-operation of the Indian parents through the parent committees and the Indian Council should be emphasized. We know that the Indian parent places a very high premium on the education and the training of his child, to which this progress was, in part, attributable. One need only read the monthly publication Fiat Lux to see time and again of what co-operation there is. The fact that Indian education is already being controlled on the primary level by the Indian Council is also jointly responsible for the harmonious co-operation which exists on the part of Indian parents. I should like to quote an objective observer in regard to the progress of the Indian population in various spheres, but particularly in the sphere of education. I am quoting from a book by Douglas Reed which appeared recently under the titled The Siege of Southern Africa. He visited Natal for the first time 27 years ago, and in this book he gives his opinion of the progress that has been made since that time. Incidentally, his first visit to Natal was just prior to the time the National Party came into power. On page 90 of this book he writes as follows—

I should like to refer to the progress being made by Indians particularly at university level. The number of students at the university has increased tremendously. In 1961 there were only 114, of whom 11 were women. In 1970 this number had increased to 1 654, of whom 547 were women. By that time they already comprised precisely one-third of all the students. In 1973 the number had increased to 2 192. I am mentioning the number of women students to point out that the Indian woman is also entering the labour market.

This number of students could already have been greater if there had been more faculties at this university. As far as I know, there are at the moment five faculties at this university, viz. the faculties of natural sciences, literature and philosophy, education, law and commerce. One realizes only too well that it is expensive to establish and maintain a faculty, but I am of the opinion that the time is ripe for the establishment, for example, of a medical faculty at the University of Durban-Westville as well. Indian students are beginning to show a tremendous interest in the medical profession. In 1974 647 Indian students applied for admission to medical schools. Of this number only 93 were admitted, viz. 15 to the University of the Witwatersrand, 12 to the University of Cape Town and 66 to the University of Natal. We know that the University of Natal is performing a very commendable task in regard to the training of Indian medical practitioners, but I believe that Indian students, if they could receive their training in the milieu of their own university, would prefer to attend that university. On the one hand there is the need for more Indian medical practitioners, and on the other the intense interest on the part of students and prospective students. Since the facilities are still too limited however. 554 prospective students had to be turned away during the past year because they could not be accommodated [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I had not anticipated speaking a second time in this comparatively short debate, but I cannot allow to pass what the hon. member for Gezina has just had to say in re gard to myself, because most of it is unrelated to the facts. What are we dealing with here? We are dealing with newspaper reports, to which he apparently has access, about what I said during the Umhlatuzana by-election in relation to the Indian community. I was dealing with the Democratic Party. Mr. Gerdener, the candidate supported, as you will remember, Sir, both by the Nationalist Party, actively, and by the Progressive Party …

Stick to the facts.

That is right; let us stick to the facts. That gentleman, apart from spreading pamphlets referring to my party and the Progressive Party as advocating policies which would sell the White man down the drain, said on 3 July that the federal policy of the United Party would bring about the subjugation of the White man in South Africa. It was a campaign of this kind with which one was dealing, and it was accordingly necessary to analyse the policies both of the Democratic Party and of the United Party, which I set about doing. What was the policy of the Democratic Party? It was to bring about a situation of equality, of “one man one vote”, between Whites Coloureds, and Asiatics in what is called “White South Africa” on the basis of a unitary system of Parliament and on the existing basis of provincial councils and town councils. It is a matter of fact that in those circumstances there would be town councils and provincial councils in this country which would be likely to be dominated by the Indian community. I said that in my view it was unwise. I went on to say that in my view it would be unwise because we stood for a federal philosophy which moved away from the domination of any one racial group by any other. I could see no point in substituting one minority group in control for another minority group in control. You will bear in mind, Sir, that the Democratic Party does not admit into this scheme of theirs the urban African. That is what I said. When I spoke on this subject and gave the facts, as I have given them now, at a symposium held by the United Party at which a prominent Indian speaker representing that community was present, he accepted what I had said and withdrew all the criticism that had been made against me in this respect. I would like hon. gentlemen, like the member who has just spoken, to make sure of their facts as to what people say before they make allegations of this kind.

I have received support from another quarter, I am glad to say, in respect of my criticism of the policy of the Democratic Party. That comes from a very interesting source.

Jaap Marais?

Not Jaap Marais. My friend over there will swallow his words when I tell him who it is. I received the other day a pastoral letter, which I get as a member of the Anglican Church, from my bishop, the Bishop of Zululand, who happens to be one of the most respected Black men in South Africa, namely Bishop Zulu. What did he say in that pastoral letter? He said that in his view it was most unwise—I am paraphrasing his words—that there should appear to be a ganging-up between the Indians, the Coloureds and the Whites of South Africa, because it would be seen by the Black people of South Africa as a ganging-up against them. He hoped that no such thing would be brought about. When one has allies of that stature in regard to what one says, I believe that one is on the right road.

I want these facts to be placed before the House because the hon. member for Gezina attempted to start a hare running here which I have no doubt he wanted to run through the entire debate in order to distract attention from the inadequacies not only of himself but also of his Government. I do not believe that one can allow a debate of this nature to be side-tracked by that means. What is more, I want the record put straight in respect of my utterances. For some years now I have had the honour of speaking in this House on the relationships between ourselves and the Indian community. When people attribute statements to me, I like those statements to be the correct statements and not the figments of somebody’s imagination.

Mr. Chairman, by this time we are used to the United Party’s double-talk. It is clear that the hon. member for Umhlatuzana has total disrespect for facts, at any rate as they are reported in the Press. I am unaware of any occasion on which that hon. member has denied the facts as reported and as quoted by the hon. member for Gezina.

May I ask the hon. member a question? Is the hon. gentleman not aware that the very next night, after that report appeared in the Press, I spoke publicly on this matter at Hillcrest and refuted everything?

Well, that was certainly never ever reported in the Press.

*That is typical of the United Party. The Indian population of South Africa found them out a long time ago. All we get from them every year is a string of words. We showed them up last year in this regard. When the United Party-controlled City Council of Durban had the opportunity to prove to the Indian community there that they would convert their words into deeds, the Durban City Council left them tragically in the lurch. This was in regard to the restoration of the Indian Market. Those are the true facts of the matter. However, through the years the National Party has built up the confidence the Indian population has in it and that is why we are being given this co-operation today, in the political field as well. It is this party that does things; we do not merely talk about them.

I have always found it a pleasure to participate in this debate on Indian affairs because it has always been possible for us to be positive. The political, economic and social development of the Indian population in South Africa offers so much that is positive, particularly in recent years, that one can look back with satisfaction at what has already been achieved by this department in this regard. This has been rendered possible particularly as a result of the fine co-operation the Government has had from the Indian population, i.e. through the various channels that are already functioning. The election of the Indian Council, which is now also constituted on a partially elected basis, is to take place shortly. The enlargement of the Council will afford the Indian population greater opportunities to decide on their own affairs. The Indian population is a homogeneous population group which is united by its cultural bonds and national pride and which maintains its own identity to a large extent. It is for these very reasons that the constitutional development of the Indian population in South Africa fits in so exceptionally well with the policy of separate development on a parallel basis as we see it. Since the Indian population have used the powers conferred on them in this evolutionary political process on behalf of their own population group with such a degree of responsibility, we shall have to accelerate this process greatly in the future. In the case of the Indian population, too, consideration will have to be given to contacts at a higher level between the Indian Council, or a future Indian Parliament, and the Central Government and this Parliament, because in my opinion they have to a great extent proved their responsibility in the bodies that have been established for them. However, the Indians in South Africa should just remember that as long as they govern themselves as a separate minority group, their problems and needs will remain distinct and can therefore be given more specific and purposeful attention.

However, if they are swallowed in the broader political set-up, they will only be able to function as an unimportant pressure group. The political evolution of the Indian population in South Africa can only be seen as being to their own advantage within the framework of separate development and mutual confidence. However, there are a number of problems—and these problems fall outside the political sphere—which I should like to emphasize this afternoon. I believe that we shall be able to iron out these political problems through consultation and co-operation. I believe, too, that we shall be able to move away from any discrimination that still exists, and that we shall place the emphasis on differentiation as far as the Indian population is concerned, too. I believe, too, that it is their endeavour to maintain their separate identity in South Africa. However, I want to mention a few problems which we shall have to consider with great circumspection in the future and which will have to enjoy the attention of the State and the co-operation of the Indian population in this regard. Time does not allow me to discuss these problems in detail, but the first I want to mention is the matter of bringing to finality and developing group areas in South Africa.

I want to make a plea this afternoon that the co-operation we have had in regard to this matter, particularly in recent times, be continued as far as the Indian population is concerned. The housing problems and the problems arising out of the resettlement of the Indian population group and other population groups are matters which we shall have to give our earnest attention. As regards the question of economic viability referred to by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, in so far as it concerns the resettlement of Indian businesses and industries, I should like to associate myself this afternoon with what the hon. member said, because we may not allow any injustice to take place in the application of our policy. But, Sir, there is another problem which we have perhaps forgotten for the moment, and that is the pre-occupation of the Indian population with distributive trade. To a large extent this problem is already solving itself in the sense that much progress has already been made in the past in regard to occupational diversification on the part of the Indians. It is heartening to see that to a large extent the Indian population are beginning to enter industry, too, and even the manufacturing industry, and that they are making a major contribution, not only in respect of production and productivity in South Africa, but in that they are starting to make a substantial contribution to the economy of the country as a whole.

Sir, the last aspect I want to mention is the problem that arises on the platteland, and here I have a word of criticism concerning the matter of possession of land and the farming methods employed by Indians on the platteland. Since up to now, planning in South Africa in regard to group areas has for the most part been concerned with urban areas, it is a fact that the rural areas have lagged behind to a large extent owing to the scope of this task. Sir, in Northern Natal, for example, there are a number of Indian farms, in consequence of which the Indians are becoming involved in farming activities, other than the cultivation of smallholdings as we find in the coastal areas, to an increasing extent. These activities on the part of these Indian farmers are creating problems and many dangers. The development of these problems is very disturbing to the White farmers in the vicinity, and we shall have to pay serious attention to this matter. There is a tendency among many of these Indian farmers to allow their lands to be used as squatters’ farms for Bantu. One finds that large numbers of Bantu who are not bona fide farm workers, are living on some of these Indian farms. Not only does this create Black spots in the White areas, it also gives rise to problems with regard to theft and friction, and this we may not ignore. I also get the impression that on many of these Indian farms, very little attention is being given to the broad principles of soil conservation and that over-grazing is the order of the day. Most of these farms have shops and cause crowds to develop, and this often leads to problems, although in a certain sense they are perhaps providing a service. We should also consider the incessant complaints we receive from time to time concerning the activities of Indian hawkers who trespass on White farms and even undermine local businesses.

There is a great deal of uncertainty about possession of land on the platteland by Indians. I have had a number of requests from Indians who want to purchase land. The time has come for this to take place in accordance with a clear, planned pattern in the future, and although for the most part this is a planning problem, I take the liberty here this afternoon of asking the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs to do his bit, too, by acting as a link in dealing with the needs that may exist in this regard.

I trust the hon. member for Newcastle will forgive me if I do not react to his speech. My time is limited. I would like for a moment to put the record straight in so far as the hon. member for Gezina is concerned and to say to him that it has been my privilege to participate in discussions with the Indian community at all levels and from all walks of life, and my overall impression has been that the Indians themselves admit that there would be greater opportunities for them under the federal plan of the United Party than under the policy of this Government.

I want to come back both to the estimates and to the report, but before I do I want to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Zululand and to extend my felicitations to the hon. the Minister. I trust that his sojourn in this portfolio will be long, fruitful and successful.

I would like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that according to the estimates an expenditure of R51 odd million is allocated to this particular Vote. It is a satisfactory increase of approximately 30% over the previous estimates. Yet I cannot find a single cent allocated to rehabilitation centres or services. I may be wrong in regard to the services. The only figure I see there which may indicate that it is for rehabilitation services—and I know there are such services—is the amount of R73 000 to be expended on social workers. But there is no rehabilitation centre for Indians and according to the Loan Vote, under the Public Works heading, although over R3 million is planned to be expended on Indian services from the Loan Vote, here again we have no provision for rehabilitation centres. Sir, I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that the population of the Indians in South Africa is approximately 700 000, and I want to refer to the debate which took place under this Vote when the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Senator Horwood, was in charge of Indian affairs. I referred to the lack of provision of rehabilitation centres and I quote what the hon. Senator Horwood the then Minister of Indian Affairs, said in this House in May last year. He said—

That was 18 months ago. In August this year, when I put a question to this Minister in regard to the establishment of rehabilitation centres for Indians, I was told that no Indians had been committed to rehabilitation centres. The reason was obvious, Sir. I quote from the hon. the Minister’s reply—

I hope that this Minister is also anxious, and that he will translate his anxiety into action. Let us pause for a moment to consider what the position is in regard to the Indian community. I refer to certain figures in regard to convictions of Asians during the year ended June 1973. These refer specifically to dagga. I do not want to take up my limited time with convictions in regard to drugs because they are relatively insignificant compared with the convictions for dagga. For possession there were 480 convictions, not charges, and for dealing in dagga there were 73 convictions. They had been convicted and found guilty, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister: Is prison the only place where these people can go when they have been sentenced, found guilty and convicted? I want to draw attention also to an increasing problem with alcoholism among the Indian community. There again, there are no rehabilitation facilities. I want to say that sometimes we in this country seem to get our priorities a little mixed. In the latest report we find that five out of the eight hotels for Indians have been completed, and six more applications for licensed restaurants and bottle stores are under consideration. I do not say that that should not be so, but I suggest that we must at least get our priorities balanced.

Then, Sir, I want to ask this new Minister to adopt a new attitude to an old problem. I ask him sincerely to show a more sympathetic approach to applications for naturalization. There have been relaxations in regard to the movement of Indians. I know that they appreciate them. I want the hon. the Minister, if he will, very carefully to consider the hardships that exist as a result of the refusal to grant naturalization applications. During the year ended June 1973, 191 applications were submitted by his department to the Department of in Interior. 113 were approved and 26 were refused. Some of them are still under consideration. I want to suggest to this Minister that the basis of decision needs review in order to eliminate unnecessary hardship and also to bring about better race relations. I believe that any relaxation of the restrictions in so far as this aspect is concerned must be initiated from the Department of Indian Affairs. I appreciate the responsibility of the Department of the Interior, but I believe that the initiative must come from this hon. Minister. I quote an example to substantiate my claim that there is hardship and that it is time for review. I refer to an Indian professional man whose family came to South Africa in 1881. He was born in Durban and saw service for three years during World War II in the East African campaign. He attended Wits University for a year and thereafter went over to Glasgow to qualify as a dental surgeon. He qualified in 1950. When he was in Scotland he married an Indian-born Indian woman. His wish was to come back to the country of his birth in order to serve his own people in South Africa. He initiated a long series of negotiations because he wanted to go back with his bride. What happened? In 1952 his application for a South African passport was not granted. In 1955 his wife and child were admitted to the Republic on temporary permits. These temporary permits were renewed in 1956 and in 1958 and then the hon. the Minister will remember that in 1961 for the first time Indians were granted the privilege of being known as South African Indians. They were granted a new recognition, but that does not matter because in 1964 this man who I believe had a very good case, applied for a certificate of naturalization for his wife, but it was not approved. He made a second application in 1966, but it was not approved. Up to this day this woman has been unable to obtain a South African passport. The husband and three sons all have South African passports, and when it comes to travelling beyond the borders of the Republic they enjoy the facilities which exist under a South African passport but the wife has to travel on a visa which involves all sorts of indignities and problems which cannot be overcome. I believe that the time has come when something should be done about it. She is not alone; there is a small number of people who suffer this indignity. I want to tell this new hon. Minister that my personal approach to three hon. Ministers, two Ministers of the Interior and one Minister of Indian Affairs, has been of no avail because I believe there has been a hidebound system which has applied for years. I ask the hon. the Minister again that he should go into this question and see if there cannot be some minor relaxation—it will be in the interest of good race relations—because only 36 of the 191 applications which were submitted, were refused. It does not involve a large number but it does involve a lot of heartache and bitterness.

I want to refer further to the report. In regard to the admission of wives to the Republic I concede readily that control may be necessary, but the figures supplied in the latest report show that seven applied of which seven were refused. This again is an uncompromising attitude which is creating hardship. A recent case was brought to my attention and although nothing could be done about it because that was the law—that was the ruling—I want to say that this man was the son of an indentured Indian who decided to take medicine. He brought himself up, worked hard and went over to India where he qualified as a medical practitioner. Over there he met and fell in love with an Indian woman who was also at university and who also qualified as a doctor in a specialist branch. He could not bring her to South Africa, but he came out himself and was able to obtain a post in a hospital in South Africa. When he sought permission for his bride to come, he was allowed a temporary permit for three months only. She could come out and visit her South African born Indian husband for three months and then she had to go. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise at this stage of the debate not to reply to all the issues which have been raised up to now by hon. members, but in the first place to thank hon. members for their complimentary remarks about the department and the report which I shall surely convey to them. I also rise to thank the hon. members for the expressions of goodwill and the felicitations which I received on my appointment. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana will know that it is not in my power to determine how long I shall stay in this department.

Before I reply to the issues which have been raised, I should like to preface these replies by certain general observations.

*I looked forward anxiously to the discussion on this Vote. No one is more aware than I am of the singular responsibility which rests on any person when he is placed in the problem-strewn field of relations and relations politics. For that reason I want to make the general observation that I greatly appreciate the spirit of goodwill towards the department in the first place, and in respect of the Indian population of our country in the second place. I expected hon. members opposite—they are fully entitled to do so—to turn the spotlight on the Government’s policy in respect of the Indian population. Similarly, I expected them to make a critical evaluation in respect of the pace and scope of the implementation of the policy. I expected that, besides the critical examination of the Government’s plans and their execution, we would also get an alternative to the Government’s policy. I want to say at once that, although the hon. member for Umhlatuzana claims that the establishment and existence of the South African Indian Council fits to the pattern of the United Party’s federal concept and philosophy, we cannot pass it off so easily. Against the background of the Government’s policy in general and in the light of the alternatives to that policy, alternatives which exist and are being propagated, I intend making certain general statements which I believe are essential if we want to conduct a meaningful debate on the present circumstances and the future of the Indian population, as we see it.

Before I reply to the arguments and representations in detail, I want, in the first place, to make a general observation. In respect of its relations policy in general the accusation is very often levelled at the Government that the policy is stagnating and that the changing world in which we live and the changing demands which such a world makes on us are not being taken into consideration. I want to analyse this statement in the South African context for a while and try to indicate that in respect of the Indian population the Government, I believe, is able not only to interpret and evaluate the changing circumstances, but, in the light of these circumstances, to do what I believe has to be done to ensure that the relations situation between us and the Indian population can be cleared of tension. When we discuss this subject, I do not think we can do so efficiently and effectively if we do not take certain factors and facets into account. The most important of these to which, in the first place, we should devote attention and of which we should take cognizance—let me concede immediately that the hon. member for Umhlatuzana also admits this—is that among the population groups and, what is relevant here, between the Indian population and ourselves there are points of difference. On the other side of the coin I want to say that I am convinced that we can create and handle a successful relations situation only if we acknowledge the equality of, in this instance, the Indian population group. Consequently we should, in the second place, not only recognize this equality as a theoretical or philosophical statement, but create real opportunities for the Indian population to demonstrate this equality in practice and to realize it to the full. Furthermore, I believe that we should take the realities of the South African situation into account. In respect of our constitutional development and adjustments we should take into account the real balance of power situation which exists within South African society. I believe that the development and adjustments which have to come in this particular regard and, I believe, will come, must follow the pattern of inter-group relations and that we should have an understanding of the deep-seated outlooks on life of the various population groups. It will avail us nothing to philosophize on constitutional notions which fail to take these aspects to which I have referred into account. Similarly, it will avail us nothing to philosophize on constitutional developments and entanglements which have no growth potential whatsoever in South African society and in South African relations politics. I am not claiming that we as a Government have formulated a clear destination in absolute terms in every sphere of life in respect of the Indian population. I believe that to do so would be presumptuous. In any event, we know only in part. What I do want to claim, however, is that this Government has set its compass in a certain direction in respect of the Indian population. In this regard my belief is strengthened by what I find in the speech of the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, i.e. that this direction has done a great deal for meaningful relations, but has done far more to place the Indian population on the road to development in many spheres of life. If we contrast the factual situation today with the one that prevailed a decade ago, I believe that it is within the framework of this Government’s policies that those very opportunities were created which caused the social, economic, political and educational development of the Indian population to prosper. I believe that this direction, in so far as it affects the delicate problem-strewn field of relations politics—which we call separate development—is the basis on which we want to build relations attitudes. It is not enough for us to formulate or work in a particular direction of constitutional development if our attitude towards this population group, and theirs towards us, does not take the form of a spirit of cooperation. The Government’s policy of separate development, as it is unfolding in respect of the Indian population, lays down the guidelines according to which, in a changing world, an orderly arrangement can be achieved in the social and political spheres in South Africa to ensure stability, continuity and progress. As far as the Indian population is concerned the National Party Government has irrevocably placed them on the road to good neighbourliness within the same national boundaries. I want to ask that as far as this is concerned, there should be no illusions in respect of the party’s policy. Now that I have said this, the question arises, and it is an important one, whether this direction, which the National Party initiated for the Coloured population in the first place, has had results. One is normally inclined, when forming an opinion, to ask what the material benefits were which the communities concerned derived from it. I do not think this is unimportant, but I think that what is of primary and cardinal importance is what we have achieved in terms of relations attitudes in the first place. It will avail us nothing if we are able to show only a long record of achievements in respect of material benefits and are unable to satisfy the other facet, which is the guarantee of stability, continuity and order. I believe that as a result of this the Indian population have gained an increasing measure of say in their own affairs. But what is more, I believe that the foundations have been laid for negotiation machinery which will also give the Indian population participation in and bargaining powers concerning matters which are of common interest to all of us. Once again I do not think, and I do not lay claim to this either, that this bargaining and negotiation machinery has been cast in its final form. However, what I do maintain, is that it does exist and that the Indian population is experiencing the benefits of evolutionary development which is based on, in the first place, constitutional change in South Africa which is greater than has taken place in any other country I know of. Secondly, we have taken dialogue, which has become such a popular term, further. I believe that we have passed that stage. I believe that we have entered the phase of negotiations politics in respect of the Indian population. This means, as I see it, that the pace and the scope of the development of the Indian population will not take place by prescription, but that it will be and has to be the result of negotiation and consultation. We who are sitting here—I want to say this in all seriousness—may not do anything through our statements and attitudes which might harm this process of negotiation, which is essential for development. I want to ask that we should do nothing which might damage these political instruments which have come into being since 1961 when the department was established. I believe we would be doing the Indian population and ourselves a disservice if we were to label as inefficient that which they are utilizing effectively.

I now want to deal with the political development of the Indian population, to which the hon. member for Umhlatuzana referred. It strikes me—hon. members must pardon me for saying so—that lately people in the Opposition parties have been so obsessed with the idea of dialogue and the concept of consultation that one would have thought they were the people who discovered this idea. The fact remains that it was the Government—I can say this because it was not I—which took the lead, as far as dialogue with the Indian population is concerned, with the establishment of the Department of Indian Affairs in 1961. It is so often alleged that the Government’s relations politics and policy is the cause of tense race relations. I do not want to speak about this in general terms. I want to analyse this statement in so far as it can be applied to the Indian population. If we cast our minds back to 1947—I am specially going back to 1947—when there was resistance among the Indians and subsequently to 1961 and 1963, when there were demonstrations and campaigns through which the Indians expressed their displeasure in respect of the dispensation which was applicable at that time, and we compare that situation with the situation of today, I maintain that it is my firm conviction that the most objective observer will agree that that tense relations situation no longer exists.

It was made illegal.

I shall reply to the hon. member on that statement. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout is not capable of creative thought. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout is not interested in the positive results of this policy. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout is prepared to play petty politics without responsibility in respect of every subject. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout will disparage everything which does not originate in his own mind. He even disparages his own leader’s policy.

You must just get your facts straight.

I want to make this statement and I want to prove it to the hon. member for Bezuidenhout. To begin with I want to assert that a tremendous improvement has taken place in our relations with the Indian population. I do not want to attribute the success which has been achieved in this particular regard to the Government alone. In the first place it would be untrue, and in the second place it would be selfish. I want to say that the true value of the contribution which the Indian communities in general and the Indian leaders in particular have made, can never be estimated. I also want to say that, in the ’sixties, while the Department of Indian Affairs was struggling to introduce the machinery for conducting the dialogue to which I have referred, for the very negotiations politics to which I have referred, it was these very people, who regard themselves as the discoverers of dialogue and consultation today, who tried to ridicule the attempts of the department in this particular regard and tried to dismiss as Government puppets those members of the Indian community who were prepared to co-operate. In this particular regard I want to say this, and there is no doubt that I would be neglecting my duty if I failed to mention it at this stage. I say that, by its responsible action, the S.A. Indian Council has not only earned for itself high esteem and praise, but has done a great deal to win the goodwill of the Indian community for this institution. This Council has furnished practical proof that they are not government puppets. They did indeed furnish proof that the road of consultation and negotiation is the road of evolutionary progress, and that this road is always better than the road of confrontation. I say I want to pay tribute to those members of the Indian Council who, initially, were prepared, in the face of tremendous opposition, to adopt this course in preference to the other.

Mr. Chairman, as a wholly inexperienced Parliamentarian, I am still not quite sure whether, when one refers to the speakers that have spoken before one, one should berate them for saying things one wanted to say or whether one should thank them for it. I am therefore not going to refer to the previous speakers.

Sir, I should like to say a few words about the welfare services in this department and in this regard I should first just like to make a few general remarks. When a certain group or groups of people go to another country and stay and work and live there, in entirely different circumstances but also with certain other specific benefits, then those people, as a result of their inherent affinity for each other, as a result of their common language and religion, develop an identity and entity of their own in the new milieu, and this is the case as regards the Indian population of South Africa as well. It has old religious ties and rich cultural ties with its old country in the East, but by this time it also has fundamental new links with its new country, South Africa, here in the West. Such a population group, then, differs from the inhabitants of its country of origin, but it also differs from the old-established population groups in its new country. Sir, I say “different” not “better” or “worse”. If I may use an English expression here, the South African Indians are “similar to others, but they are not identical to others; they are identical only to themselves”. Sir, in this regard I just want to make a few general remarks. Apart from India herself, Ceylon, Pakistan and Bangladesh, there is no greater concentration of Indians in the world than in South Africa, and in addition, the Indian population in South Africa is bigger than the Indian population in the rest of Africa. Of course they also enjoy more peace, quiet and security here than the Indian populations in the rest of Africa. Sir, of the Indian population in South Africa, about 70% are Hindus, who for the most part are descendants of the so-called indentured labourers of 1860; about 25% or more of them are Moslems, who are for the most part descendants of the “passenger” Indians. The Hindus in South Africa have, for the most part, four languages; the Moslems have two languages, one of which also occurs among the Hindus, but I do not want to go into that except to make this interesting remark: As the result of trade and as the result of education, English is becoming a fairly important language, and also a home language for the Indian, with the result that these days there are young Indians who are no longer able to speak their mother tongue. In other words, a change is taking place, and it is for that reason that I say that the Indians in South Africa are different to the Indians in their countries of origin.

In South Africa Indians are for the most part urbanized; about 90% of them live in cities and in the bigger towns. In 1960, 8,6% of economically active Indians were in agriculture, and in 1970 it was only 3,7%. Only 7% of the Indian labour force is on the platteland.

The position in South Africa today is that in spite of language, cultural and religious differences, in many spheres the Indian population has become an integral part of South Africa and the South African way of life. They are here to stay. Repatriation does not and will not work. They have been living here for as much as four or five generations; they are anchored and rooted here. Sir, this is no political argument. All political parties agree on this and I only mention it as a background fact in pleading that as regards welfare services, too, we should all cooperate in the interests of every one of us, so that the Indians may also continue to live here happily. I say we should help each other and we should learn from each other. The hon. the Minister also referred to this. This is vital for good human relationships and for a good understanding. I may just mention in passing that in my opinion, if there is one thing we can really learn from the Indians, and which I recommend strongly, it is the place of the woman in the household. You know, the Indians can serve delicious food. I have had meals with them in the past and one finds that the women stay in the kitchen and they take pleasure in serving and waiting on the men. I strongly recommend this.

But let me come to social welfare. To me the Afrikaans word “volkswelsyn” (social welfare) is a beautiful word. After all, we all want things to go well and a contribution to be made so that the people will “fare well”. The Minister referred to the establishment of this department in 1961, and on 1 April 1963, 1 April 1964, and so on up to 1 April 1969, welfare services have been systematically transferred to this department. The question arises whether progress has been made, and the answer is a decided “Yes”. I just want to mention a few examples. In 1964 there were 7 593 cases of old-age pensions and R905 802 was paid out. In 1973 there were 10 698 cases and R2 510 514 was paid out, in other words an increase from less than R1 million to R2½ million, representing an increase of about 250%. As far as maintenance and foster parent allowances in terms of the Children’s Act of 1960 are concerned, we find more or less the same position. In 1964 there were 3 902 cases and R505 933 was paid out. In 1973 there were 9 871 cases and R3 111 852 was paid out; in other words, an increase from R½ million to more than R3 million, which, according to my calculations, represents an increase of about 600%.

I say that there has in fact been definite progress. But I have said that people are different. Now, I read the following in a report in this morning’s Burger, concerning a lecture given in Pretoria by Dr. Erica Theron (translation)—

She went on to say what she meant and concluded by saying that (translation)—

That is, in allowing these people to participate themselves (translation)—

This fits in outstandingly with what I have said about what is different. People who are different, know better than those who are different to them what is going on among themselves.

I want to take the example of the use of alcohol, and today I am referring its use rather than its abuse. Reading the report of the HSRC, we find that only about 20% of the Indians use alcohol and 80% are teetotallers. If we analyse this sex-wise, 35,7% of the male population use alcohol and only 3,9% of the female population. Religion-wise, the Hindus among them number 23,3%, the Christians 10,2% and the Moslems only 1,9%. Language-wise, one has the same phenomenon. Only 3 to 4% of the Urdu and Gujurati speakers use alcohol, and that is the case for the very reason that it is, inter alia, a religious conviction, because the Moslems do not use it. Drawing a comparison between the Whites, the Coloureds, the Indians and the Bantu, we find that 25% of the Whites and 39% of the Coloureds are teetotallers. It is interesting that the Coloureds have more teetotallers than the Whites. Among the Bantu the figure is 37% and among the Indians, 80%. But the percentage of those who do drink—and I am referring to the use and not the abuse of liquor, but one must remember that there is a fixed percentage of consumers who become alcoholics—is 75 among Whites, 61% among Coloureds, 63% among Bantu and 20% among Indians. These facts illustrate again that the problem and the nature of the problem can differ from national group to national group and it differs in accordance with the level of education and so on. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have listened with interest to the speech made by the hon. member for Krugersdorp, particularly to his comments on the question of repatriation although this no longer applies. It may be interesting for this House to know that Indian people first arrived on the Witwatersrand very shortly after the discovery of gold. There are many families there today who have lived on the Witwatersrand since 1887. The hon. the Minister has in broad philosophic terms outlined the attitudes of his Government and the so-called creative thoughts which lie behind these philosophies. I can only wish him well as a new Minister. I hope he will meet with success and, as a new member, I hope from these benches to be critical of what is done and I hope to put forward our own philosophy. As the hon. the Minister said, it was in 1961 that the South African Government for the first! time abandoned the active advocacy of the policy of repatriating Indian South Africans to India and Pakistan. At the time it was a great step forward because it accepted that Indians in this country had as much right to be called South Africans as anyone else had. It was a step forward at a time when the situation of the Indian community was quite unbearable. The Pegging Act of 1946, which incidentally was brought about by a United Party Government at the instigation of their Natal right wing, was changed.

[Inaudible.]

I am pleased indeed to hear from the hon. member for Umhlatuzana that the anti-Indian attitudes of the past are no longer with them. The Pegging Act resulted in unbelievable overcrowding of living areas. Living conditions for Indians were absolutely appalling. For a time some of the pressure was taken off, as far as living space was concerned, by the opening up of new townships for Indian occupation, e.g. Lenasia and others. Regrettably, 13 years later, we still have a tremendous shortage of land for housing. This shortage can only be described as an artificial one, created by the Government and its Group Areas Act. [Interjections.] This shortage of land is absolutely critical, whatever that hon. member in the front bench over there may say. The housing shortage is also critical.

“Honourable” or “horrible” member?

In Chatsworth, for example, there are some 200 000 people living in 20 000 tiny houses. [Interjections.] I am not interested in the past; I am talking about the present. [Interjections.] What the hon. the Minister said were fine sounding words. In Chatsworth there are 200 000 people who are living in 20 000 tiny houses. Officially Chatsworth has, I think, a population of only 150 000, but unofficially it has been estimated that there could well be a quarter of a million people there. Whatever the number is, the extent of the overcrowding is quite frightening. Actonville on the East Rand is another case in point. So short is land in this area, that building plots, one-sixteenth of an acre in extent, if available, and they are not often available, change hands for R15 000 or more. In other words, an acre subdivided into 16 plots could bring in R200 000, in the unlikely event of such an acre-plot being available, which it is not. Compare this with the price of a house in the most expensive White suburbs in Johannesburg. The price of land in these expensive suburbs would cost, at most, a quarter of or less than a quarter of the price it does in Actonville. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister please to do something about this critical land shortage in respect of Indian housing. We find that amenities in townships are just not there. Lenasia, for example, with its huge population, after 13 years has no hospital. Amenities in every Indian township are almost non-existent. One is particularly upset by the apparent lack of planning for the future. What is going to happen to the Indians? We have heard the words of the hon. the Minister. It is about time that the Government made up its mind. A good start would be to make more land available, e.g. in Lenasia where no building land is available at all.

The Durban city council, for example, must be pressurized into making more land available. We could also stop group area removals and house people who are living in conditions of dreadful overcrowding. The Government does not have to change its policy. All it has to do is to slow down the implementation of that hovey until the happy day when there is sufficient housing for all.

Another unpleasant aspect of group area removals is the uncertainty which is the lot of a large section of the Indian trading community. All over the country traders who have not yet been moved live in fear that their livelihood is going to be destroyed. A little earlier in the session the hon. the Minister of Community Development in reply to a question I asked, stated that 524 Indians were still to be moved from business premises in the Cape Peninsula alone in terms of the Group Areas Act. The same is true throughout the country. There are many Indians who are still living in fear and trembling because they do not know what is going to happen to them. I want to ask hon. members just to imagine the desperate plight of thousands of Indians all over the country. Over the years they have slowly but surely been restricted and in some cases they have been absolutely destroyed as a trading community to the enormous benefit, I may say, of some White-owned businesses. We have even had the unedifying spectacle at certain congresses of the Nationalist Party where delegates decided that it was unpatriotic to patronize Indian businessmen; of course, the boot is never on the other foot when it comes to Black people patronizing White-owned businesses.

Just tell us where!

All I can say is that the position of the Indians who are faced with the methods used in the implementation of the Group Areas Act is extremely unpleasant to say the least. Just as a sideline to the main question, I want to say that I find it extraordinary that so many Indian townships are positioned in areas which have something wrong with them in the geological sense. Lenasia is right on top of a potentially dangerous dolomitic area …

That is an absolutely scandalous allegation!

… while, huge areas which are reserved for Indian occupation in Durban are located on ecca-shale which is also very difficult to build on safely. The hon. the Minister has stressed the importance of taking cognizance of the realities of the South African situation and I believe that these realities must involve the sharing of power. Any political philosophy which does not face up to this reality is of no account. I think that the Indian community of South Africa could well be described as a forgotten community. We hear very little about the Indians both within and outside Parliament although we hear a great deal about the other people in South Africa. What has interested me as a newcomer to this hon. House was how little attention has been paid to this hardworking section of the community. We in the Progressive Party regard the presence of 700 000 people of Indian origin as a great asset to our country. They have contributed much to what has been built up in this country. How are we rewarding them for this contribution? They are starting on the same road of failure which has been followed by the Government with regard to the Coloured people. On 6 November this year Indian people will for the first time be going to the polls to elect 15 people to their council of 30 members. Already many Indian leaders, including Mr. Joosub, the former chairman of the council, have pointed out that this half-elected council will have no meaningful powers. The hon. the Minister can only delegate to that council those powers which are held under his portfolio, such as education and social welfare. For example, funds for administration are still controlled by this Parliament in which Indian people have no voice at all. Even in terms of Government policy, unless the Government entrusts the Department of Indian Affairs with more functions such as housing and health which in turn can be delegated to the Indian Council itself, we are in no way either sharing power or giving Indians the right to look after their own affairs. It is the same dreary story as with the Coloured Representative Council. The Indian Council seems doomed to the same depressing round of powerlessness, futility, dejection, despair, rebelliousness and ultimate rejection as we have witnessed over the past five years in relation to the CRC, with the same potential for hostility and bitterness. We have already had many rumours that Indian people will boycott the forthcoming election. When it comes to the delegation of powers, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister just how many Indian people are employed in his department. I should like a particular answer to this question because it appears to me that in this we have another instance of Whites planning for others.

Finally, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to expedite the evening-out of salary scales in respect of teachers and university personnel. The hon. the Minister has done a great deal in this connection already and for this I must congratulate him. Although strides have been taken towards parity, I believe that complete parity should come about immediately. There is no moral justification for discrimination at an Indian university by, for example, paying a White lecturer more than an Indian lecturer when they are doing the same job. The new salary scales for Indian teachers are also unsatisfactory. The very least the hon. the Minister could be doing is consulting, having dialogue—he himself talked about having dialogue—with the S.A. Indian Teachers’ Association. I hope that he will set up a time-table as soon as possible to eliminate the gap because this sort of discrimination really cannot be defended.

Mr. Chairman, in the last decade the Indian people have learnt to have confidence in the sincerity of the National Party. They have also learnt to reject hypocrisy and insincerity on the part of many people who pay lip service to what should be done for the Indians in the interests of their own development and progress.

There are a few matters I would like to deal with but before doing so, I would like to refer to the fact that the hon. member for Umhlatuzana was rather upset that a part of one of his speeches in his election campaign was quoted in this House.

It was not quoted—that is what I was upset about.

It may not have been quoted but he said:

He said that when he was dealing with the Democratic Party’s policy.

That is right.

It is quite true—he was dealing with the Democratic Party’s policy which stipulated that they wanted to combine the Indians, Coloureds and Whites in a single political society. The hon. member rejected that. However, five hours before he said that at a meeting in North-dene, there appeared in The Daily News an article reporting on a statement made by Senator Eric Winchester, I quote from the newspaper:

I agree with that. It is no contradiction.

This was five hours before the hon. member for Umhlatuzana spoke in Northdene. Senator Winchester called for a multi-racial city council but the hon. member for Umhlatuzana said he was against this sort of body because of the domination of one group over others.

That is not what I said at all.

Consequently, it is obvious that the Indian community cannot have faith in this type of double talk from people who do not really know what they want or who are prepared to continue with this double talk from one platform to the next depending on the audience they address.

You should be in an audience a few times.

Be that as it may I am quite convinced that the Indians have lost all confidence in the sincerity and political honesty of the United Party, and the Progressive Party for that matter.

Tell us about Ladysmith and Newcastle.

I shall speak about Ladysmith. There is a matter which affects Ladysmith directly and which I would like to mention briefly. It does not concern the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs directly, but, since the hon. the Minister deals with the general community interests of the Indian people, I would like to deal with this matter now. There is a section 19 area in Ladysmith which has been set aside for business developments for Indians who are scattered around various parts of Ladysmith. The position is that because of the group area proclamation the Indian traders in Ladysmith cannot effect improvements to their business premises because they know they will no longer retain those premises when effect is given to section 19 and they have to be resettled. Nothing tangible has been done yet to develop this section 19 area. I appeal to the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs to consult with the hon. the Minister of Community Development to expedite this development. It is rather urgent because it is creating a tremendous problem for the Indian traders in Ladysmith. I appeal for some rapid progress in this respect.

Another matter I would like to deal with is the University of Durban-Westville. The United Party, incidentally, called this university a “bush college” some years ago. Apparently it is now accepted by them as indicating some real progress for the Indian people. This university has also been accepted by the Indian people as a tangible contribution to the progress which they have attained. I might mention that the University of Durban-Westville was the most expensive university of all universities built in South Africa in its initial development. It was even more expensive than the Randse Afrikaanse Universiteit. I would like to ask that urgent consideration be given to the establishment of a medical faculty at this university and to link it with the R. G. Kahn Hospital in Durban. The present situation, where there is a medical faculty for Indian and Bantu students attached to the University of Natal, is a bit of an anomaly. I ask that this matter be resolved by considering all the implications. I am in favour of establishing a medical faculty at the University of Durban-Westville for the purpose of encouraging more Indian medical students.

May I ask the hon. member a question?

My time is very limited and so I regret that I am not able to answer questions. As far as the Indian people are concerned, I think we have a community in South Africa which since it has become accepted in South Africa as being a permanent part of South Africa can genuinely be regarded as one which has greater potential for development than any non-White group in South Africa. Not only do they compare favourably with the non-White groups; they compare favourably in their general living standards with the White group in South Africa as well. As far as their moral norms are concerned, the hon. member for Krugersdorp has already indicated their attitude towards liquor and alcoholism. They have very high standards as far as that is concerned. As far as welfare is concerned they have shown that they have done more to provide welfare services for their own people than any other non-White group has done. As far as education is concerned, before the Government took over Indian education, they did far more for education among their own people than any other group, including the Whites. As far as industrial development is concerned, they have reached the stage where they hardly need assistance in the way that the Coloured people or the Bantu people need assistance, because they are in a position to provide tremendous industrial development for their own people. Another important factor is that among the Indian people there is a very low crime rate, the lowest of all racial groups in South Africa. Consequently, within the policy of the National Party of giving a genuine but differentiated identity, there is a tremendous potential of goodwill that can be generated between the Indian people and the White and other peoples in this country, provided we treat them fairly and have definite clarity about our policy towards them. We should stop double-talk as far as the Indian people are concerned.

Mr. Chairman, I never thought that I would rise in this House to find myself facing a situation of obvious “toenadering” between the Nationalist and the Progressive Parties. Both the hon. member for Orange Grove and the hon. member for Klip River spoke in terms of “regard” in respect of the Indian community. The hon. member for Orange Grove “regards” the Indian community as an asset. Let me say at the outset that my party does not “regard” from a distance. The United Party accepts and acknowledges that the Indian community is an asset and is part of our South African community. [Interjections.] Furthermore, the hon. member for Klip River thinks that the Indian is going to find sincerity in the Nationalist Party, I say that the Indian would be equally foolish to look for sincerity in the Progressive Party. I was very interested to hear the hon. member for Orange Grove’s speech this afternoon. I had already read most of it in The Daily News of Monday, 14 October 1974. It is all here. The progressive Party’s Natal Coast Region refers to—and I quote—

The hon. member even mentioned the shale in his speech—

They are further quoted as saying—

The speech is all here for him. Instead of those hon. members writing speeches for the Press, the Press now write speeches for them. There is one matter not mentioned by the hon. member but referred to by the Progressive Party Natal region, viz. an Indian area next to the sea. They are quoted as saying:

I would suggest that some of these misinformed gentlemen should look around Natal some time and drive north of the Umhloti River, where they will find a beautiful stretch of coastline, which forms part of the Desainagar Township, stretching from the Umhloti River to the Tongaat turn off. Believe me, it is a beautiful stretch of coastline, and I would be proud and happy to own a property there. There is also, of course, Isipingo just south of Durban.

Now let us get off the petty politicking and talk about the Indian community as I know and understand them in Natal, and their part in the South African society. I believe that this community is playing an ever-increasingly important role in the scheme of things and in our South African way of life. I believe that their contribution towards keeping our country more economically viable and towards keeping themselves socially stable is becoming more apparent as each day goes by. I believe this because the South African Indian has become a South African, and a true South African at that. I would like to illustrate this by referring to an incident which occurred some 12 to 18 months ago. I was conversing with an Indian doctor from the North Coast. We were talking cricket. This is a game, incidentally, we play a lot of in Natal, also on Sundays. We were talking cricket … [Interjections.] Some members of certain parties here do not know about cricket, incidentally. My friend, the doctor said: “You know, our team will beat the MCC this year.” I replied “I do not think they will.” He said: “No, we will beat them. We really will.” So I said: “Well, you are going to have an opportunity of providing that.” He then asked: “How are we going to have an opportunity? They are not touring South Africa.” I replied: “But they are touring India.” He said: “I am not talking about India; I am talking about our team, the South African team.” That is as the South African Indian thinks today. Although it is well known that they will retain their languages, their cultures, their beliefs and their religions, they have become South African in the general sense in respect of their way of life, in the houses that they build, in their sporting interests and in their trades, occupations and professions. If any hon. member here cares to inquire he would find that the Indians are a caring community with a deep sense of responsibility towards society and South Africa. I refer here again to The Daily News of the same date as that on which the Progressive Contribution was written. The report states:

This is proof of their feeling of responsibility. I submit to the hon. member for Klip River that it is not Nationalist policy that keeps the crime rate at the low level which it enjoys among the Indian community; it is their sincere feeling of responsibility. [Interjections.] They are a people who are constantly trying to improve their position both socially and economically. They recognize the need for education both at school and at higher level. The South African Indian today is taking his place in industry in Natal and other parts of the country and is proving to be a tradesman of the highest order. He can hold his head high in this sphere. I do not think it is necessary for me to tell the House about the Indian’s natural business acumen. He is respected as an astute and successful businessman. He is too often regarded as an exploiter. I believe that people are too quick to say this of the Indian and that this type of remark is often founded on jealousy.

As far as education is concerned, I should like to dwell for a moment on a rather pitiful state of affairs that exists at present in Natal in regard to school children below Std. VI. We are told that in the case of sub-standard classes there are no fewer than 199 classes or 6 756 pupils operating on the platoon system; Stds. I and II, 169 classes or 6 328 pupils; and for Stds. III and IV, there are 47 classes and 1 617 pupils. This is indeed a sorry state of affairs and I would like to ask the hon. the Minister to acquaint this House of any measures he may have taken, or is considering taking, in order to alleviate this situation.

I should like now to deal with some aspects of the hon. the Minister’s report. I join my colleague, the hon. member for Umhlatuzana in commending the hon. the Minister on the presentation of this report. The report deals with industrial sites and at some length with the availability of sites at Stanger and Isipingo. I would urge most strongly that, when these sites become available, they be sold with built-in development clauses in the deed of sale in order to encourage the genuine developer to purchase the site and to discourage speculators. The question of military training has already been dealt with. In regard to the question of local government I can speak with some authority having had some 17 years experience in local government in Natal. I want to say here and now that the people at the level of Indian local government—I speak here of the Verulam Town Board with which I have had a close association—know how to run their affairs. They do this extremely well. I want to urge the hon. the Minister to consider the establishment of further Indian local authorities and refer him to Desainagar and Tongaat among others. I also commend our Natal Provincial Council and Mr. Percy Fowle for their sterling efforts in this connection over the years. As regards employment, it is pitiful to note—and I quote from the report—

Sir, I would like to hear something from the Minister in this connection. It is noted, too, that—

This is to be commended. I would like to hear the Minister tell us that he, too, is taking steps to ensure that more and more trades are opened to the Indian community. They need this elevation of social standing. They are not all capable of achieving matriculation level, and, to those who cannot, technical training and advancement is of the utmost importance. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Umhlanga must excuse me if I do not follow up on his political excursions. I think that the hon. the Minister will reply to him in full.

Mr. Chairman, I want to make the statement that the Indian population is one of those nations that is utilizing the opportunities offered by the policy of multinational development to the full In order to realize this, one need only look at the achievements of the Indian in the sphere of industrial development.

It has been said of the Indian in the past that in the Transvaal and the Cape Province in particular, he over-occupied trade. Bearing in mind the few employment opportunities that existed previously, this situation was understandable, because if the Indian had been unable to earn his bread in trade, he would certainly have become a burden on the State. We should also, in all fairness, bear in mind that particularly in the earlier years, these traders also rendered an important service to the various communities throughout the country. Many of them opened shops in outposts of our country where no one else would have been prepared to live in solitude, and in so doing they created facilities for those people there which would not otherwise have been available. These traders, who established themselves throughout the country in this way, definitely also made a substantial contribution to the economy of the country, because there is no doubt that they formed the link between the producer and the consumer.

When the department of Indian Affairs was established, one of its tasks was to try to diversify the Indian economy and to guide it away from trade towards industry. The Indian, who at that stage was not yet recognized as a permanent part of the South African community, was not very keen to invest large amounts of capital in the manufacturing industry, but when these people were recognized as a permanent part of the population, an entirely new attitude was aroused in them in the knowledge that he could now establish himself here, the Indian grasped the opportunities offered to him to diversify his economic activities and entered the sphere of industry. Sir, statistics show this quite clearly. Whereas 22,4% of the economically active population were employed in industry in 1936, by 1964 the percentage had risen to 35.4% and since then this rise has been maintained. More than 1 650 Indians already hold the status of employer in the manufacturing industry. Investments in the manufacturing industry are at present estimated at R30 million and it is expected that this amount will rise to R60 million in 1980. The number of industries has risen from 181 in 1961 to almost 700 in 1973.

The Indian youth is realizing that trade cannot offer them a living in the future and that owing to the establishment of the chain stores, the retailer would eventually have to disappear, and for that reason the depopulation of the platteland, as the hon. member for Krugersdorp put it, is taking place, and the Indian is going to the cities where he is accepting employment in factories and other major undertakings. Sir, the experience of White entrepreneurs is that Indians employed by them do satisfactory work and that absenteeism, for example, is very low. That is why I think we may take the liberty of appealing to White entrepreneurs, in these times of manpower shortages to employ Indians to a greater extent.

But a very interesting phenomenon is also occurring with regard to the Indian woman. In the past, very few Indian women entered the labour force. In terms of Eastern culture, it was the custom that the woman confined herself to her housekeeping and that the daughter, after leaving school, did not enter the labour force, but became more proficient in the performance of household duties. Today the picture is an entirely different one and one finds the Indian woman in various branches of the labour market. The percentage of economically active Indian women has more than doubled in the period from 1960 to 1970. It has risen from 4,9% to 10,8%. At present 13 460 Indian women are employed in the manufacturing industry, representing a percentage increase of 435% between the years 1960 and 1970. The clothing industry, to mention one industry alone, has shown a significant growth over the past 20 years. In 1948 there were ten clothing factories in the Republic. By 1970 this number had grown to approximately 100. It is generally acknowledged today that the Indian factories manufacture approximately two-thirds of the clothes for the lesser-privileged section of the South African community. It is also estimated that at present, manufacturing industries in Natal alone employ 70 000 Indians and that this number will grow to 113 000 by 1990. But we should also bear in mind that the establishment of these manufacturing industries provides employment possibilities not only for the Indians, but for thousands of Bantu and Coloureds as well. This industrial growth, which I have tried to indicate briefly, and which is a major asset for the economy of our country, is also clearly to be seen in the Indian group areas. But now the Indians’ one complaint is that an insufficient number of industrial sites are available in the group areas. This situation gives rise to intense competition among the Indians to obtain the available sites. Consequently very high prices have to be paid for sites, and this, again, has a detrimental effect on the distribution of articles at an economic prices. Since the reaction of the Indian to Government policy has been so positive in this respect, it is a pity that problems of this nature should crop up. I therefore want to make an earnest appeal in this regard to the developers of these group areas to ensure that sufficient industrial sites are made available in the planning of group areas. Short-term planning with regard to group areas, planning that fails to make adequate provision for future industrial development by the Indians, might not only harm the country’s economy, but could also lead to areas of friction in human relationships, something to be avoided at all costs. Whereas this planning and development is in most cases handled by the local authorities concerned, or by the Department of Community Development, I should like to plead with the hon. the Minister that he too use his powers here to ensure that attention be given to the matter so that the zeal and the initiative of the Indian industrialist will not be dampened in this way.

Sir, it is my conviction that with the positive reaction we are getting from the Indian population and industrialists, with the correct planning on our part, the Indian population could become the showpiece for the development of multi-national development.

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Geduld will not mind if I do not follow up his argument. He made a few very interesting points especially regarding group areas. I hope to deal with that later on. I should also like to take the opportunity of welcoming the hon. the Minister to his new post. I agree with him: I think he occupies a very responsible position, and listening to his philosophy and the statements he made when he spoke just now, it is quite clear from the things he said that he means it very well with the Indian community. He spoke of “gelykwaardigheid” and all the things one would like to hear him speak about. But It is was also clear that he is caught up in this dilemma in which the Nationalist Party finds itself when it comes to accommodating the Coloured and the Indian community. I do not want to spend much time on this dilemma. The Minister spoke of the evolutionary process. The question is, of course, always where the evolutionary process is to lead to. I know it has been debated in this House many times and I do not want to repeat the arguments in regard to the question of how one is to bring about sovereignty for the Coloured and Indian communities. The Minister, towards the end of his speech, said with reference to the present set-up that the council is valued by the Indians and that it is serving a good purpose. He said that we should be careful before we disparage it or pull it to pieces. Unfortunately I am not going to go along with him all the way in this view. As the hon. member for Orange Grove said, the problem is that the Indians themselves do not seem to have that amount of confidence in the constitutional set-up of the Indian Council. The hon. member for Orange Grove mentioned the words of Mr. Joosub who commented on this matter in detail when he spoke to the students at Potchefstroom. I see that the hon. the Minister knows about this speech, so I need not quote any details. I think one of the things which is important is that we have to accept that the confidence of both sides is necessary for this set-up to succeed. In the arguments put forward by Mr. Joosub in his speech there seem to be very cogent reasons why they do not have any confidence in it. I wonder if the hon. the Minister would not come back to this matter in his reply.

After talking to the leaders of the Indian community on the Witwatersrand it seemed to me as if they were, in fact, very hopeful about their future. They feel a lot has been done for them since 1961 when the department was established. But what they really feel hopeful about now, are certain statements which were made, among others, by the hon. the Prime Minister, to the effect that whatever is to be done for the Coloured community will also be done for the Indian community and that one cannot deny the Indian community something which one does not deny the Coloured community. Secondly, no commission of investigation has been appointed to go into the position in regard to the Indians as has been done with the appointment of the Theron Commission in regard to the Coloureds, because the Government has made known the fact that the broad recommendations of the Theron Report will also be utilized when considering the future of the Indian community. I should like the hon. the Minister to reply to that, because the Indians widely believe that this will be done. They would be very disappointed if they were to find out that this was not the case.

One of the problems experienced by both the Coloured community and the Indian community, and one dealt with by the hon. members on the other side of the House, is the implementation of group areas legislation. This is one of the biggest issues and one resulting in the most hardships that these communities have to bear. Quite clearly, the Erika Theron Commission is going to make far-reaching recommendations in this respect. We have heard hon. members on that side of the House plead for a relaxation of these measures. We have heard the hon. member for Geduld mention the hardships experienced, and his plea for better planning. Let us assume that this will probably be one of the major recommendations of the Erika Theron Commission’s report. If that is the case, it is also going to be implemented in respect of the Indian community. That would mean that the Indian community would get whatever relief the Coloured community is going to get. In the light of this I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not worthwhile—because the commission’s report will be coming out in the not too distant future—to stop all forced removals of the Indian community until such time as the report of the Erika Theron Commission is published, so that we can see what the recommendations are. It just seems that to continue with these forced removals, with their resultant hardships, only to find out in a few years’ time that they were not necessary after all is something that could be avoided. Therefore I want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider that.

Another point I wish to bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister is something which really affects his colleague, the hon. the Minister of Community Development. It concerns the price of stands in Lenasia. The position is that a lot of land was bought. Townships were planned on this land but then it was found that this land could not be used for development and therefore, the planning had to the redone on other land. Tests had to be conducted, which showed that much of the land which was originally bought could not be used for townships. In the meantime the cost of services had escalated tremendously because they were dealing with very difficult ground. There are other costs involved and all these costs have been amortized—that is the law of this country—into the cost of the remaining stands. This is adding an increase price or a sort of levy on to these stands which should not have been incurred in the first place because the land should never have been bought. You cannot buy land for a township if that land cannot be used for a township. These people who are forced to buy there, because there is nowhere else that they can buy, are forced to pay the additional levy. They have no alternative and I think that if the hon. the Minister could do something about this, if he could have the price adjusted to what is would have been if all this wasted land had not been bought, it would be appreciated by the Indian community.

I wish to raise another point and that is that Lenasia, which has a population of some 40 000 people at the present moment, does not have a hospital. I think that one of the reasons why they do not have a hospital has to do with the dolomitic problems which are found there. This is obviously a critical matter. I know that various wealthy Indians in Lenasia have made offers and are prepared to make financial donations in order to get a hospital going. If the hon. the Minister could do something about that it would also be very much appreciated by that community.

One of the other aspects about which the Indian community of the Witwatersrand are concerned—now I refer specifically to the community of Page View—is the fact that they have to leave their existing trading situations where they have been able to hold them freehold over the years. They now find themselves having to operate from the Indian Bazaar which is a Johannesburg Municipality project. Whilst the Bazaar is very good …

The Indian Plaza?

Sorry, I mean the Indian Plaza. Whilst this is very good, it is in fact changing their whole way of life because, initially, when they were in Page View, the whole family took part in the trading operation. The mother, after she had put the children to bed, could help, as could the brothers, once they had finished their work in hotels in Johannesburg. They could then come back to help in the shop. So the whole family’s way of life was built around the trade. Now they have to live in Lenasia; they have to come in to the Plaza. This whole thing is going to break down and is going to knock up their overheads. One of the things they are worried about is the possible escalation of rentals in future. If possible they would like to be able to acquire their shops under sectional title freehold, but because this is not a free area, they are not in a position to do that. They are not even in a position to start negotiating with the Johannesburg Municipality on this. This is another aspect which I would be very grateful if the hon. the Minister could give his attention to.

Finally I want to deal with the aspect of the difference in wages. There is no doubt that as a result of the difference in wages between Whites and Indians a lot of professional people are in fact leaving the country. That, of course, is a great loss to the Indian community and to South Africa because, since they cannot get proper reward for their positions here in South Africa, they find that they have to go elsewhere where the expertise which they have will be accepted and well rewarded. I think that in view of the small cost in rands and cents involved to even out the wage gap between the Indians and Whites, this is something which should be done not only to promote good race relations, which the hon. the Minister spoke about when he made his introductory speech, but also to retain the services of those people with expertise who are leaving South Africa because they feel that they are not getting their full value here. We should retain the services of these people because both we and the Indian community in South Africa need them.

Mr. Chairman, this afternoon I find myself in the very difficult position of actually being tempted to congratulate the hon. member for Randburg on certain matters to which he referred. I feel that I can in fact thank him for the good testimonial he impliedly gave the Government at the beginning of his speech. By making the admission that the Indians are very hopeful about their own future in the country, he admitted by implication that the policy of this Government offered the Indians the only really positive solution of their problems. I must thank him for that admission he made because is a good testimonial.

He also referred to another matter which I do not feel very happy about because he did not follow it to its logical conclusion. I should like to know from him what he meant by it. To be specific, he pleaded that the hon. the Minister should put a stop to the compulsory resettlement of Indians with a view to what could possibly happen in the future. I have a bone to pick with the United Party in this regard, because, without the hon. member stating it in so many words, the United Party is going round with the story at the moment that it is only a question of time before the Indians are allowed to live in the White areas among the Whites. Surely they are being extremely unfair to those people in suggesting that such a possibility exists because surely one is thereby creating expectations that will not be fulfilled, since the policy of this Government as regards that matter is very clear and well known. I want to tell the United Party that in my opinion it is extremely unfair for them to make such a suggestion, and that it can only lead to disappointment among the Indians.

Who made that suggestion?

I am prepared to tell that hon. member in a private discussion which of the United Party members are going round with that story. He as a member of the Old Guard will be quite interested.

Tell us now.

Tell us in public.

Without going into unnecessary detail, I just want to refer in passing, this afternoon to the establishment and existence of the Natal Indian Cultural Organization as mentioned in the Department’s annual report. In my opinion, if ever there was a positive step in respect of which the Indian Council deserves praise for the initiative they have displayed, then it is what they have done in this regard. I gather, too, that it is the intention to establish similar organizations in the Transvaal and that this would eventually lead to the establishment of an umbrella national body which would have a co-ordinating function relating to all the cultural activities of the Indians in South Africa. While the Indian is in fact a person steeped in culture who has demonstrated that he is prepared to sacrifice a great deal for the retention of his culture and his traditions, I think I am speaking on behalf of the whole Committee this afternoon when, in the first instance, I wish these cultural organizations the prosperity and success they deserve. Because this matter is so important, I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that his department should, when and where necessary, consider affording financial support, too, to encourage the establishment of these cultural organizations. But on the other hand, it is also true that while the Indians have great respect for their traditions, even at this stage we should not neglect to point out that when the Indian is being settled in residential areas, it should always be in such a way that, in the first place, a duplication of religious and cultural institutions will not be necessary, and in the second place, that as large a group of them as possible will be able to live in the same area with a view to the convenient pursuance of their cultural activities.

I want to discuss another matter as well, namely the question of powers of local management for the Indians. The policy of conferring these powers of local management to the Indians in three phases is very well thought out and corresponds with the evolution of the policy of the Nationalist Government. The conferring of these powers having already progressed a long way under this policy, I want to congratulate the department and the hon. the Minister in this regard. The three phases in accordance with which these powers are conferred on the Indians comprise, of course, in the first instance, the Consultative Committees that are called into being. Looking at them, one notes that during the year covered by the report, Consultative Committees for 13 towns in the Transvaal were established. It is also mentioned in the report that altogether 20 Consultative Committees are already functioning in the Transvaal, while three committees, namely those at Lenasia, Laudium and Actonville, have already achieved a higher status in the sphere of local management in that they have been converted into Management Committees. This brings me to the second phase, namely that these Consultative Committees are converted into Management Committees at a certain stage, which means that they are given greater powers. Eventually they would be converted into full-fledged local authorities. Then it would be the endeavour to have all posts on those autonomous local managements manned by Coloureds. I do not think there can be any dispute on that score. This is essential and it is good that it should be so. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that this is the road he should follow. I only wonder whether the hon. the Minister could possibly give the Committee an indication—I realize, of course, that this is not the task of the hon. the Minister’s department—of steps that are being taken to prepare the Indians for the acceptance of this very important responsibility in regard to their own people. In this respect, too, I think it is essential for me to repeat the serious warning that in the planning of group areas, things should be done in such a way that these group areas—I want to make the plea to the hon. the Minister that his department makes its influence felt—are established in such a way as to enable those local managements which will eventually take control there, to be able to do this. In this connection I read a very interesting article in Fiat Lux. Admittedly it is an edition of a few years ago, but what is said in this article is still valid today. The necessity for these local managements and their composition is discussed. They say here very clearly, when referring to the “prerequisites”—

Then they refer to certain problems that have already been experienced in this re’ gard. This is an extremely important matter and I really want to make a very earnest plea that cognizance be taken of it, that these areas be planned in such a way that it will be possible for them to be excised from the local mother body. The second point they make in this connection, is the following—

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Springs has dealt with various items, but in the first part of his speech he made an accusation against the United Party to the effect that we had been advocating that the Indians should be permitted to live where and how they wished. But, of course, he did not substantiate these remarks; he did not give any reference as to who the person was who said it or when he said it. The position is that the hon. member for Umhlatuzana has clearly indicated that there are certain aspects in respect of which we are concerned about the welfare of the Indian community. He has brought to the attention of the hon. the Minister certain items which we believe deserve attention.

I would like, too, to say to the hon. the Minister, who is a new Minister in this department, that there are many people in the Indian community looking to him for assistance and who have high hopes that he will be able to fulfil some of the promises that have been made in the past to them. I would like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment. I hope at a later stage to be able to put forward various suggestions to the hon. the Minister as far as the welfare field is concerned. I believe that he can play an important part in that connection.

The hon. the Minister also indicated earlier this afternoon his views in regard to the future development of the Indian people and the South African Indian Council. I believe the hon. the Minister should indicate whether this council is to have meaningful powers in dealing with some of the items that are presently on the Estimates for the Department of Indian Affairs. I refer particularly to welfare services as this is one of the major items, together with education, as far as this Vote is concerned. We would not like to see a situation develop such as has been the case with the Coloured Representative Council. Many of their resolutions and motions that are passed are referred to the Government, but that is as far as the resolutions and motions go. This means that the council as such is not really having any meaningful say in the administration of some of its powers. Here I refer particularly to certain aspects which are of concern to the Coloured community and are of equal concern to the Indian community. I refer to the fact that there is considerable differentiation—the hon. member for Newcastle prefers the word to “discrimination”—between the services that are offered to the White group and those offered to the Coloured and the Indian groups. We know that the Indian community has certain difficulties in regard to housing. Indeed, the report indicates that this is one of the most serious problems facing the Indian community, particularly in the urban areas. It indicates that there is a serious backlog. I know of several cases where Indians have been on a waiting list for housing since 1965.

As regards the overall services provided to these people, such as welfare services and social pensions, one finds that there is a considerable difference between the In’ dian community and the White community. I hope that the hon. the Minister will give his attention to narrowing the gap that does exist in many of these services. I want to refer here to the position of the social pensioner. It is interesting to note in the Estimates that disability grants constitute a larger amount than old-age pensions. There are more persons receiving disability grants than old-age pensions. If one takes into account the position as it now exists, that the White pensioner receives a basic pension of R52 per month whereas the maximum basic pension for the Indian pensioner is R26 per month and, as has been announced, the pension of the White pensioner is to be increased with effect from 1 December to R57 per month and that of the Indian pensioner by an amount of R3-50 to R29-50 per month, this might appear to be a slight narrowing of the gap. In actual fact, however, the gap is wider in that whereas the difference previously was R26 per month, from 1 December the difference between the pension paid to the White social pensioner and that paid to the Indian social pensioner will be R27-50 per month. I feel that the hon. the Minister should give his attention to this matter because it is a matter for concern on the part of a number of the members of the Indian community.

There is also the question of the means test applicable in respect of Indian social pensioners. When one looks at the figures applicable to the White group and compares them with those for the Indian group, one will notice that the difference is 50% in relation to what is permitted in regard to assets and in regard to income. As far as the Whites are concerned, we know that there is a free income of R42 per month whereas in the case of the Indians this only amounts to R21 per month. We know that the Whites are permitted what are termed free assets amounting to R9 800 while in terms of the means test applicable to the Indian social pensioner only half this amount, viz. R4 900, is permitted. I believe that these are matters which require the close attention of the hon. the Minister.

The same thing holds good in regard to subsidies in respect of homes for the aged. We know that it has been Indian custom and tradition to look after their old people. However, from various reports, one sees a rapid Westernization taking place among the Indian community in South Africa in this regard as well. The position will continue to change as time goes by. We see that the subsidy payable in respect of inmates of Indian old-age homes is R3-50 per person up to R19 per month for infirm cases whereas for the Whites, depending on the degree of infirmity, the subsidy ranges from R5-50 to R66-50 per person per month.

Order! Hon. members must not stand talking in the aisles while another hon. member is speaking.

Mr. Chairman, I should also like to refer to another aspect of social services affecting Indian children. It would appear that there are several gaps in relation to the service that is being rendered for Indian children in this regard. If we look at the Estimates, we will see that there is a place of safety for Indian children in Durban. According to a reply the hon. the Minister gave in this House earlier this session, it would appear that there are presently some 78 children accommodated at that place of safety. What does concern me is that the average length of stay of these children at such place of safety is six months. The intention with such a place of safety is that it should act as a transitional home from which such children will be transferred either to children’s homes or other institutions. In some instances, of course, they are returned to their parents but in most instances they are children who are declared to be in need of care, usually as a result of uncontrollability or truancy or something similar. I contend that a period of six months is far too long for these children to remain at a place of safety. As far as the other services are concerned, we know that children who are detained because of uncontrollability or truancy can be sent to a school of industries. However, I understand that this school of industries which accommodates 80 children at the present time is only for boys. There is no school of industries for girls. I do hope that the hon. the Minister will give his attention to this matter because there is obviously a need for a school of industries for girls as is provided in respect of White children. Commitment to such school of industries has in many cases been found to be conducive to rehabilitation.

There appears to be another glaring gap in that no provision at all is made for juvenile offenders as far as reform schools are concerned. The Indian group is the only race group in South Africa in respect of which no provision whatsoever is made for the rehabilitation of young juvenile offenders by this means. In most cases juvenile offenders are sent to reform schools where they receive specialized education, guidance and discipline so as to assist them to readjust to the community on their return from such reform schools. It would appear that this is definitely a situation which requires the further attention of the hon. the Minister. As I have indicated, this is a matter which the S.A. Indian Council has from time to time discussed. They have discussed these very matters, for instance where there are gaps as far as the welfare services of the Indian community are concerned, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to these pleas and bring about a more comprehensive system of welfare for the Indian community. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Berea indicated that he had to leave, and therefore hon. members will pardon me if I deal immediately with the facets which he raised. Firstly, he inquired about the progress being made with the rehabilitation centres.

I† hasten to assure the hon. the member immediately that I share his laudable sentiments, as I would call them. The hon. member will understand that although the decision was taken in principle to build such a centre for the Indian people, the actual planning and the reaction of the centre do not fall within the purview of my own department. But I would like to give him the assurance that I will do everything in my power to see that this work is expedited.

The hon. member also referred to the question of the naturalization of the Indian people. In this regard he will understand that my department does not deal with applications for naturalization of Indian persons or anybody else for that matter. But I would like to assure him that I have taken this particular issue up with my colleague, the hon. the Minister of the Interior, and we shall have further discussions about this at an early opportunity. I cannot make any promises at this stage except to reiterate that the S.A. Indian Council has brought this to our attention and to the attention of the department on many occasions and that we intend taking this further with the department concerned.

May I bring a specific case to you?

Naturally, if the hon. member wants to bring a case to me I cannot prevent him from doing that. He may do so, but I shall have to refer the matter to the department concerned. I must also suggest that we do not at this stage deal in terms of individual cases, but let us rather have discussions between the relevant departments and see what decisions can come out of that discussion. I think that would be much more satisfactory.

*I want to digress for a moment and say that I appreciate the suggestions and even the criticism expressed by hon. members, even the criticism which hon. members expressed in respect of what they thought could still be done. I myself believe that departmental efficiency can only be ensured if the activities of such a department are regarded critically. For that reason I hasten to say that I understand and appreciate that there will always be room for improvement, and when hon. members identify that problem, I do not take it amiss of them for doing so. But I do want to take issue with the hon. member for Orange Grove on a certain matter. If his constituency had been called “Orange Grave” I would have been able to understand his making a funeral oration. This phenomenon in South African politics can of course be troublesome, but I can assure you, Sir, that it is going to be of a short-lived nature, for those hon. members think for some inexplicable reason that they were returned to this House with an increased representation on the basis of their policy. Sir, no objective political observer today will believe that that party will, as a political phenomenon, have a place in South African politics in future and no one believes that they were returned to this House on the basis of their own formulated policies. I want to say at once—and there is no illusion whatsoever about this—that the votes for the Progressive Party were not a vote for their policy; they were a vote of censure against the crises which had arisen in the United Party. I want to tell you, Sir, that had there not been a leadership crisis in the United Party, had there not been a crisis of confidence in its ranks, had there not been a crisis of policy in its ranks, then that hon. member would not have been a member of this House. But I want to tell him that I expect nothing else of him for you see, Sir, we are aware that in politics we have to be content with, in contrast to other people who try to represent transforming forces on the South African scene, there also being the destructive institutions, those people who oppose and wish to demolish everything positive which other people want to do for the furtherance of the country in general. This is not the first time that destructive forces, as we have now in the person of the hon. member and his party, have appeared on this scene. We have had them before, and South Africa dealt with them. But I want to tell him that on the path he is following, with his statements and their creation of unfulfillable expectations among people, they will, with their destructive actions, leave behind them the ruins of strained relations; and they who are the apologists of co-operation, they who are the apologists of consultation, they who are the apologists of a sharing of power, will become the exponents of confrontation. Sir, I am not saying this without evidence, for in what company does that hon. member and his party associates find themselves? The Natal Indian Congress met, and who was one of the speakers, the hon. member for Rondebosch. And with what did he identify himself at that congress? With Black polarization. Now I ask him whether this is the course which he and his party associates foresee for the people in this country? If he were to refer to the Post of 9 September of this year, he would find the following report there: “our future lies with the Blacks.” And associated with this, through his presence, was the hon. member for Rondebosch, that hon. member who comes to this House time and again and accuses the Government of intervening in the politics of the Bantu. I want to ask him what they are doing in regard to Indian politics? I want to ask him, secondly, who his principal is in speaking on behalf of the Indians in this House, while the Indians have the leaders to speak on their own behalf and have the forums in which to speak?

Sir, I want to take this matter further with him. I want to reiterate that I have no objection to our debating the effectiveness of political instruments. I have no objection to our arguing with one another about our alternatives. But I object vehemently to that hon. member sitting there, he and his party associates, and becoming both here and elsewhere, the exponents, the ringleaders, of revolutionary action. I want to tell him that I am not prepared to take cognizance of him. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. the Minister must withdraw those words.

I withdraw them. I meant unconsciously, not deliberately. Sir, I am not prepared to listen to that hon. member when he discusses the needs, or the reputed needs, of the Indian population, for neither he nor his party have the weal and the woe of the Indian population at heart, and they care very little about them. To them the Indian population is simply another political football which they can use to get their ideologies established in South Africa.

How dare you question our sincerity?

I want to tell him this, that I take cognizance of what the Indian leaders tell me, and what do they say? But let me first say this. That hon. member refers to the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council which is doomed to failure, and by way of prophetic prediction he says that the Indian Council is also doomed to failure. Sir, why does he say that; with what object does he say that?

The hon. member and his party associates want it to fail. They will try to do everything in their power to ensure that these bodies are a failure. I do not concede that the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council is a failure, but to the extent to which problems have in fact arisen, I want to lay the blame for this at the door of the hon. member and people like him. Sir, the discordant note in this debate was sounded by the hon. member for Orange Grove, not because he was pointing out problems, but more because his approach was not geared to improving the circumstances of these people; his approach was to tell everyone that the Progressive Party group which is sitting here is the principal mouthpiece for all dislocated persons. Whether it harms South Africa makes no difference to him; whether it harms relations, makes no difference to him; and whether this is going to allow us to proceed with the evolutionary course of development, makes no difference to him. Sir, I think it is farfetched to make the allegation in this House that the group areas and townships which are being developed for the Indian communities are usually the poorest. I challenge him to go and take a look at the group area for Indians in Pietermaritzburg. I challenge him to go and take a look at the community development there, which goes much further than the mere development of a group area; I challenge him to take a look at the development which has even stimulated industrial development in that same area. I challenge him to take a look at many of the group areas for Indians; I challenge him to take a look at Rylands and Cravenby. But, Sir, those hon. members are not interested in that. They are only interested in protest. They are only interested in what they are able to identify as matters which give rise to discontent in South Africa. I want to ask the hon. member whether it is not true that phenomenal progress has been made in respect of political participation. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana was quite correct in stating that as far as development on a local government level was concerned, the greatest progress had been made in Natal Of course this is true, because most of the Indian population is living there. Sir, I am asking the hon. member for Orange Grove: What meaningful role, what meaningful say or participation did the Indian community have in the political structure of South Africa ten years ago? But what are the facts today? The fact of the matter is that more than 200 elected members of the Indian communities are serving on local governments where they are dealing with their own affairs. But, Sir, that party does not want to afford these people an opportunity of serving their communities. That party does not want to afford these people an opportunity of creating channels and instruments for bargaining, negotiation and development. It is not seeking order. Sir, it is writing off the Indian Council. I want to tell him that this Indian Council, to which he referred in such disparaging terms, is going to hold an election on 6 November to fill 15 vacancies, and 45 candidates have been nominated. Sir, there are almost more candidates than there are Progressives in South Africa. That is what the Indians think of the Indian Council. But what does the Executive Committee of the Indian Council have to say? Surely the hon. member will not tell me that they are puppets. When another so-called leader, who is an activist, levelled an accusation at them and said that they were not allying themselves with him in the fight against the Whites, what did they say? They said—

Sir, I wish that hose hon. members would learn from them—

Sir, why do those hon. members not take a leaf from the book of these responsible Indian leaders? This statement by the Executive Committee of the Indian Council goes on to say—

And they are going to get this, Sir—

The one which the hon. member writes off—

May I ask a question?

I just want to finish-

Finally, until by a process of evolution, political institutions which will satisfy the ultimate needs and aspirations of all sections of the South African society become a reality, we believe that the Indian people would be committing a grave error if they were to reject outright the channel of communication now open to them for negotiation with the Government and other authorities.

Sir, precisely what that hon. member advocated, they rejected.

May I put a question now?

No, I want to finish my reply first; then the hon. member can put his question. Sir, I want to go further and say to the hon. member for Umhlatuzana that the election of 15 members of the Indian Council is going to be held on 16 November. Secondly, I want to inform him that the decision on the machinery used for the election of members of the Indian Council and on the procedure in accordance with which this took place, was not a one-sided decision of the Government, but was taken in co-operation with the Indian Council itself. Sir, the Indian Council has since its establishment foreseen for itself three phases of development, which were firstly that a third of the members would be elected and the other nominated; the second phase was that a larger number would be elected and fewer nominated, and the third phase was that all the members would be elected members. Sir, in terms of time we have already anticipated the phases of development which they themselves foresaw with regard to the election of the Indian Council, and I want to say that it is the express intention and the policy of the Government that the Indian Council shall become a fully elected body.

When?

When we have negotiated with the Indian Council, not with you. I have already indicated that we anticipated the phases of development, and when the terms of the Council which is now going to be elected has expired, we shall give our attention to whether it should be a fully elected council. If it should be, I shall take the decision. The hon. member need not be concerned about that. I want to reply to the hon. member further by saying that it is the intention that the powers and functions which have up to now been limited in respect of the new council, will be expanded considerably. The new council may, after negotiation, take over the powers which I have in respect of education and welfare services. The fact remains that we are now entering a new phase of development, namely that functions other than purely advisory functions will now be transferred to this council.

†The hon. member has inquired about military training for Indians. The answer to his question is that the training consists of naval training. It is a voluntary training system. Once they have completed their training, they may apply for positions in all the other branches of the Defence Force, i.e. the Air Force and the Army, in the various capacities in which they may serve.

*Mr. Chairman, I want to proceed and explain, with regard to the hon. member’s question on the Indian Market, that my predecessor appointed a committee to resettle the Indian traders who forfeited their business premises as a result of the fire. That committee has made considerable and good progress with regard to the settlement of these traders. Last year the traders had already been established on a temporary basis. The resettlement of those fish, meat and other traders who have been accommodated in the restored section of the old market and who have to move at the end of this year as a result of road and railway construction programmes, will be resettled in Chatsworth. According to my information it will take a further 12 to 18 months before the buildings in Chatsworth can be occupied. The committee is negotiating with the city council of Durban to make temporary accommodation available as an interim arrangement. We are doing our best in this regard, in co-operation with the city council of Durban. As the hon. member knows the Government donated R100 000 to the City Council to construct the present market building. However, I must explain that the State is not responsible for the uprooting of the fish and meat traders, and is therefore not responsible for their resettlement either. This relates to other programmes. The State and my department will try to be of as much assistance in this regard as possible. I should like to convey my thanks to the City Council of Durban for the co-operation which has been forthcoming on its part in this regard. I want to express the hope that the City Council will make the land which is known as the Old Beer Hall site, you will know where that is, available at a reasonable amount to an Indian consortium to accommodate these traders there. I think that this will be generally welcomed.

†The hon. member referred to the ad hoc committees. I should like to explain that these committees, established by the Indian Council for the three provinces, deal with local and provincial matters. Their reports are referred to the Executive Committee of the S.A. Indian Council for further steps and representation to my department and myself if and when required.

*The hon. member for Newcastle referred to the question of soil conservation on Indian farms. We already have approval for training Indians to provide extension services in this regard. However, it will still be a year or two before it is possible to put the scheme into operation. Since I am now dealing with this specific point, I also want to say that we have decided in respect of the flood damage suffered by Indian farmers to give them the same assistance as that given to White farmers. I think that I have already replied to the points raised by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana.

Various hon. members, inter alia, the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, the hon. member for Randburg and other hon. members, discussed the proclamation and implementation of group areas. Hon. members know that the question of the proclamation of group areas, for whatever ethnic group, is a matter which is the responsibility in the first place of the Depart ment of Planning. I want to say at once that my department and I receive the most sympathetic treatment from the hon. the Minister of Planning when we approach him with representations in respect of the Indian population. It is a fact, and there is no doubt about it at all, that a shortage of premises exists for Indians in certain areas exists. As far as Lenasia is concerned there is a set of unfortunate circumstances, of which the hon. member for Randburg is aware, which happened to bring about the present state of affairs. The hon. member inquired about a hospital in Lenasia. Negotiations in regard to this site have ultimately been finalized, and I shall as far as I am able, use my influence with the Transvaal Provincial Administration to try to expedite the construction of a hospital, a hospital which will serve a population of 40 000 and more. The hon. member for Randburg referred further to the possibility of an Indian consortium purchasing business sites in the Oriental Plaza. The hon. member will understand that I will not be able to furnish him with a reply to that question because it relates to the activities of another department, namely the Department of Community Development. Nevertheless I want to say in general that I have negotiated with the departments concerned on the method of selling premises to Indian businessmen. Hon. members will know that in the past these were sold per tender. Frequently the people who were really being resettled did not have the opportunity of being able to purchase it. We are devising a method, and we are considering whether we cannot utilize a method other than the tender method to help those traders who want to form a consortium to become the owners of their specific shops in these specific cases.

The hon. member for Gezina referred to the education and training of the Indian population. I want to thank him for his observations in that specific regard. I do not want to occupy the time of the House by quoting a long list of statistics, but I do want to make one statement. It is that although we introduced compulsory education for Indian pupils up to the age of 15 years, we did not have a great influx on the primary school level in the first year in which this was effective. This really indicates that 100% of the Indians of school-going age are already attending schools on a primary school level. I do want to emphasize one aspect, which is that since the Department of Indian Education took over, the attendance of Indian high school pupils increased phenomenally. In Natal the increase on the secondary level was the greatest, namely 77,9%. The average increase on the primary and secondary levels was 17,7%. In the Transvaal the increase on the secondary level was 16%, while the increase in the Cape Province was 148%. An important point which I want to make here is that the increase in the number of primary school pupils displays a relatively stable graph, while it was phenomenal in respect of high school pupils. This is unmistakable proof that the ability of the schools to attract and hold the children is far higher. Then I want to point out that the teaching staff at the secondary schools increased by 108.9% between 1966 and 1970—these are the latest figures. As far as education in general is concerned, I want to say to the hon. member that this department is one of the first to introduce a completely differentiated system of education for Indian children, and that we are making progress with the building of technical schools. Where technical schools do not exist, vocation-orientated subjects will be introduced in ordinary schools. The hon. member also referred to the university. I want to tell him that the story of the University of Durban-Westville is a success story in the eyes of the Indian community as well. I want to tell him that I share his sentiments in regard to medical training, as well as those of the hon. member for Newcastle who made a request to me in that respect. It is true that the number of Indian medical practitioners, in proportion to the Indian population, is relatively one of the highest when compared with the ratio in other population groups. I believe that a medical school at the University of Durban-Westville, apart from anything else, could impart status to that university. I also believe that it is necessary, in the implementation of our policy, that training on a tertiary level should be offered at the University of Durban-Westville. For that reason I can say that the Government has decided in principle that a medical faculty or school be established at the University of Durban-Westville. This will take a long time to plan and establish, but the decision in principle has been taken in accordance with the Government’s general policy in this particular regard.

I have already dealt with the hon. member for Berea. The hon. member for Krugersdorp referred inter alia, to the welfare services, as did the hon. member for Umbilo. I also want to inform the hon. member for Krugersdorp that in the sphere of welfare services the Indian population has most probably made the greatest progress. Apart from the progress which was made on the departmental level, and apart from the fact that the professional officers in the department are already Indians, there is another important facet which I should like to emphasize, namely the natural acceptance of the Indian population of the obligation that they should be responsible for the welfare services of their own people. It is true that the amounts which are being paid out in the form of old-age allowances and disability grants have increased. One could deduce from that that there are increasing numbers of persons among the Indian population who would be unemployed. However, it is very interesting to know that the unemployment rate among this population group has dropped, and is at present minimal. While I am dealing with this subject, I want to say at once to the hon. member for Umbilo that, if he were now to consider the increased social pensions and allowances for Indian population as well, he will find that as far as the increase is concerned, it is proportionally higher than that for the Whites. It is in any event quite correct that before the increase came into effect there was a relatively large gap. I want to say at once that my department, together with the other departments concerned, is investigating the possibilities of closing the gap in respect of pensions and allowances as well. The hon. member will understand that this cannot be a once only matter, but that it is a phasing process which requires time to implement to the full.

The hon. member also referred to the question of children who are kept in places of detention. He expressed concern at the periods of detention which, according to him, were relatively long. I want to give him the assurance that I shall discuss the situation with my department and we shall see whether we can effect an improvement in this particular regard or whether we can in any event establish what the reasons are for the problem which may exist there.

Fortunately I have dealt with the hon. member for Orange Grove. The hon. member for Umhlanga referred, inter alia, to the shortage of school accommodation. The hon. member was quite correct in this regard. The problem which we are experiencing does not lie in our ability to erect the buildings, but to find school premises in the established residential areas. I want to point out to the hon. member that we have made considerable progress with regard to the provision of school amenities for the Indian population. Apart from other progress in the sphere of education, the department has, since it took over responsibility for this, particularly since 1966, built various schools. When the State took over the education of Indian children from the Natal Provincial Administration, education was in a chaotic state. I am not saying this in a spirit of reproach; I am simply trying to state the facts. Since 1966 we have spent R29 million on the construction of school buildings. In Natal 49 primary schools and 16 new high schools were built, and in the Transvaal nine primary schools and six high schools. In the Capt one primary school has already been built, and construction work is at present in progress on a high school as well.

Business suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.05 p.m.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I shall be brief. I should like to refer to the observations made by the hon. member for Geduld. I want to agree with him that it was not only recently that we found that the Indian population was an asset to South Africa. There is one very important aspect which he mentioned and with which I also agree. When the Department of Planning makes provision for group areas, it must be possible for community development to take place within the group areas. The emphasis falls not only on residential and commercial areas, but provision should also be made for industrial development and for areas which may be utilized for that purpose. The hon. member is quite correct when he points out that in respect of participation in the manufacturing industry of the country, the progress which has taken place has in fact been unprecedented. When the hon. member states that it is expected that by 1980 an amount of approximately R60 million will have been invested in industry in which Indians have the controlling share, he is quite correct. In this regard I want to point out that according to the Executive Committee of the Indian Council a need exists for information in respect of cost accounting planning for manufacturing enterprises. I have held discussions in this regard with the Industrial Development Corporation, for they are also available to the Indian population as a source of finance. According to my information more than R2 million was recently made available by the Industrial Development Corporation to Indian businessmen for the establishment of industries. The statistics in this regard confirm very emphatically that the Indian population is to an increasing extent diversifying their involvement in the business world. Whereas they were once, according to the old traditional pattern, primarily in the distribution trade, as another hon. member said, they are now to an increasing extent venturing into the sphere of manufacturing. As the hon. member quite correctly observed, there are at present more than 700 such manufacturing entrepreneurs who are at present employing 14 000 Indians. In 1960 there were 31 600 Indians employed in the manufacturing industry throughout the entire Republic. In 1970 this figure had already risen to approximately 70 000. In conclusion I just want to say to the hon. member that, although I agree with him in principle, considerable provision has already been made in various regions of the country for industrial premises for Indian businessmen. The regional planning committee for the Pitermaritzburg/Durban complex in particular is concerned in this. It is expected that by 1980 a total of 113 400 Indians will find work in the industries in the Durban /Pinetown area. The clothing industry is, for example, one of the specific industries in which the Indian businessman is not only becoming involved to an increasing extent, but in which he, as far as price and quality are concerned, can compete with the best we have. I do not want to take the matter any further at this stage, except to tell the hon. member that I agree with him and that I thank him for his contribution.

The hon. member for Springs referred, inter alia, to the Natal Indian Cultural Organization. In this regard I just want to say to him that the Indian Council initially requested that an organization similar to that which exists for the Coloureds, and which is composed of Whites, should be established for them. My own standpoint and that of the department up to now is that they should establish such a body themselves. Hon. members will be aware that the Indian population actually have hundreds of small cultural organizations. Personally I believe that it is desirable for them to establish a co-ordinating organization. This has already been done in Natal, and I hope and trust that it can also be done in the Transvaal. The department has no objection whatsoever to giving them financial support in this specific regard. I think that I have now replied to almost all the various points which were raised.

The hon. member for Springs adopted the standpoint in respect of the planning of group areas that one should in fact establish larger and more viable group areas so that this may give substance to local government matters. Although I agree with him in general that this would be the ideal state of affairs, I must nevertheless emphasize that this matter rests in the first place with the Department of Planning which, when group areas for Indians are being considered and planned, consults with the Indian Council and my department in respect of the standpoint which we adopt in regard to that specific context. Although I agree in general with the hon. member, that it is desirable for one to establish a community which is viable from the point of view of the establishment of local government, one should also on the other hand ensure that unnecessary removal processes are not set in motion.

I think I have replied in general to the arguments which were raised. Once again I want to thank hon. members very sincerely for the participation in the debate and for their constructive criticism. I promise that the aspects which I was unable to deal with owing to the lack of time will in due course receive attention from the department. In conclusion I want to thank the officials of the department very cordially for what I believe was a Herculean task which they have performed over the past decade or so. I believe that they have laid the foundations for the meaningful further expansion of the development of the Indian community, which is making exceptional contributions to the development of our country in general.

Vote agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 43.—“Tourism”:

Mr. Chairman, we now come to the other half of the split personality of this hon. Minister and I want to join my colleague, the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, in welcoming this hon. gentleman to the high posts which he has now attained. I want to say that he has tackled a tremendous job in this particular portfolio. At the same time as welcoming him I want to welcome the new Secretary of the department, Mr. Behrens who has come into, what we hope will be, a new-look department, and particularly a department with a new outlook.

As I understand the situation, and as we on this side of the House see the job of the hon. the Minister, the functions of his department are broadly threefold. They are, firstly, the promotion of tourism from outside the Republic using, of course, the South African Tourist Corporation, known as Satour, as its agent, and through participation in the Southern African Regional Tourism Council, which is known as Sartoc, and related bodies. Its second function, as we see it, is the promotion of tourism within the Republic where we believe it should use the publicity associations and that it should establish regional offices and committees and other agencies where its function will primarily be that of providing information. Thirdly, we believe—this is perhaps the most important task of the hon. the Minister and his department—that it should promote the development and improvement of accommodation establishments, of travel facilities and of tourist amenities within the Republic.

Unfortunately, unlike my friend, the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, I cannot congratulate this hon. Minister in this half of his split personality and this department on an excellent annual report. The latest report we have of this department is unfortunately dated March 1972, but I do not think that we can blame the hon. the Minister or his department tonight—I am not making an issue of it and am merely placing it on record—that we have not received a report since then. We sincerely hope that we will have reports for the years 1973 and 1974 before we debate this particular subject again next year so that we will be able to debate with the latest information available to us. As I say, it is a shocking situation, but we are not making an issue of it tonight.

I hope that the hon. the Minister and his department will take cognizance of the changes which have come about in conditions, not only within the Republic, but outside the Republic as well in recent times. I hope that he is gearing his department to take the necessary steps to cater for the advent of more tourism in South Africa as a result of this. I refer particularly to the change in the school calendar to a three-term school year that has now been started in the Transvaal as an experiment. I hope that he and his department and the ancillary bodies with which they should be in contact all the time are taking note of this change and of the change that there is going to be in the pattern of tourism withing the Republic.

We must, of course, also mention the position of Mozambique. The hon. the Minister is surely aware that many South Africans particularly from the Eastern Transvaal and many people from Rhodesia, Malawi and other African territories have holidayed traditionally in Mozambique. It would appear from the present political situation there, that this is not going to continue and I hope that the Republic is going to be able to capitalize on it. I hope that the hon. the Minister and his department will see that the Republic is able to capitalize on this to encourage those people to come to South Africa. There is also a big change in tourism throughout the world where political changes in Europe, the fuel situation and inflation have changed the whole pattern of tourism. I hope that the hon. the Minister is going to take cognizance of this as well.

The United Party believes that for the Republic to take full advantage of these changed circumstances, there are certain things which the department should be doing. The first is that the tourist potential of South Africa and the benefits accruing to the Republic warrant a greatly expanded budget for the department. When we look at the budget, we find that R3,3 million is allocated to this department of which R2,6 million is handed straight over to Satour and we are left with only R700 000 for a department to administer an industry the value of which in the Republic is in the region of R260 million according to the latest figures which I have been able to get. I believe that this is totally inadequate, but one of my colleagues will deal with this in greater depth a little later in the debate. Secondly, the United Party believes that comprehensive research into both foreign and internal tourist requirements, particularly regarding facilities and amenities, should be undertaken to enable this department more effectively to guide and to advise the tourist industry. This will also be dealt with by one of my colleagues at a later stage.

Why do you not do it? [Interjections.]

Well, I have only ten minutes. The hon. members make a lot of noise, but let us hear them participate in this debate. There is also a third point in which we in the United Party believe sincerely, viz. that tourism is not the sole privilege of the White people of South Africa. We therefore believe that this department should use its influence, its finances and its resources, to ensure that tourist facilities, accommodation, transport and amenities are made available to all races.

Who wrote that speech?

It is all very well for the hon. member for Worcester to interject, but he has no tourist potential in his area. Therefore he is not interested …

You will be surprised.

… and that is why he just sits there making a noise instead of coming into the debate. [Interjections.] There is another point too. The fourth leg of our policy is that we believe that while it must not neglect tourism from overseas, the department must encourage internal tourism and that there are certain factors which the hon. the Minister should take into account when doing this. In particular this department should be interested in the dissemination within the Republic of comprehensive information on tourist attractions in South Africa. I had the experience a couple of days ago of going down to the S.A. Railways Tourist Bureau at the station—I know this has nothing to do with the hon. the Minister’s department—and of asking for information on South-West Africa because I thought that I might take a trip into South-West Africa in January if I have three or four days to spare. I found that they had nothing to tell me and there was no help at all. A series of brochures was thrown on to the table in front of me and I was told “Well, there you are; go ahead and do it yourself.” I hope that this hon. Minister’s department is not going to adopt that sort of attitude. I believe that they have got to go further than that. I believe also that this Minister’s department should be concerned with stimulating and co-ordinating tourist promotion at local level by providing financial and other assistance where it is necessary. It must assist the voluntary committees which it has established; it must establish more offices; it must assist the publicity associations, if necessary, with financial support; it must assist local authorities and parks boards and other authorities which are concerned with the tourist industry in this country. Finally, Sir, we believe that it should be encouraging the provision of more efficient, more convenient, more attractive and more comprehensive tourist amenities and transport facilities.

Sir, to come back to the point regarding non-Whites and the fact that tourism in South Africa is not the sole privilege of Whites, I want to say that the hon. the Minister must be aware that non-White people in this country are not travelling within South Africa; they are leaving the country; they are going to other countries such as Mozambique, Swaziland and Rhodesia for their holidays. I believe that this department must encourage them to get to know our own country. Sir, this matter will be dealt with more specifically by one of my colleagues later, but I must mention the question of the Southern African Regional Tourist Council and our membership of that body. I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment as chairman of that body for this year.

The ensuing year.

I hope he has realized the full implications of membership of this Southern African Regional Tourist Council, which has as its members such countries as Malawi, Mauritius, Swaziland and others. I hope that he has realized that there is a potential for Coloured tourists to come to South Africa, and I sincerely hope that he will use his influence within the Cabinet to make all tourist facilities and amenities within the Republic available to them, and I sincerely hope that he will use his influence with the hon. the Minister of the Interior regarding the visas which these people will require to come into South Africa.

I want to conclude, Sir, by saying to the hon. the Minister that I believe that in the development of the country’s internal tourism, the first essential is to encourage our own population to travel within its boundaries. There is a side-effect to this, and that is that in this way new holiday centres are developed and exploited with the result that the country has more to attract overseas visitors. Sir, you know the potential of overseas visitors at the moment. People are running away from the traditional resorts of Europe and central America and we in this country can claim our share.

Mr. Chairman, you will understand why I am not reacting to the previous speaker. What is more, I am not opening the debate on behalf of this side of the House. I am simply giving birth to my maiden speech—a sort of late arrival.

Sir, tourism is the largest single industry in the world, and it may justifiably be said that it is also one of the oldest industries in the world. The movement of people from one place to another, from one country to another, is as old as recorded history itself. In 1972, 189 million tourists travelled the world. It might surprise you to hear that these tourists spend the colossal amount of R20 milliard in the course of their travels. By 1973 the number had risen to over 200 million, and according to estimates the number will rise to over 300 million by 1983. Up to now South Africa’s share in this astronomical number of tourists has been relatively small. In 1973, 610 000 tourists visited South Africa, of whom approximately half came from Africa. Conservatively estimated, these tourists earned R250 million in foreign exchange for South Africa. This is indeed a contribution to our trade balance which is not to be scoffed at. At present tourism is South Africa’s third most important export product. I foresee the day when tourism will become South Africa’s most important export product, when tourism will also become South Africa’s largest single industry, and when tourism will become our greatest earner of foreign exchange.

In order to achieve this, we shall have to be in the position to lure at least one million tourists to South Africa within the next decade. This will mean that we will have to market South Africa in countries which have up to now been lying quite fallow. World tourism is growing at a rate of between 7% and 9% per annum. South Africa finds itself in a rather unfavourable position as compared with other popular and better known tourist destinations overseas. We are faced, for example, with tremendously long distances from the major tourist markets, which must necessarily push up considerably the cost of coming to this country. In addition, as you know, a serious and unjustified degree of prejudice exists in many countries towards our country and its people. All these things, coupled with tremendously tough competition from other countries, give us a tremendous handicap. We are nevertheless proud, and justifiably so, of the fact that the Republic has in recent years succeeded in maintaining a growth rate which is easily twice as high as the world average. This is a success story of which we in South Africa may justifiably be proud. I give all the credit to the Department of Tourism, and the S.A. Tourist Corporation, as well as all the other bodies that are active in this sphere.

The way I see it is that every tourist who visits South Africa and leaves! us to return to his own country, goes back with a totally different insight into and outlook on our circumstances. I want to put it this way, i.e. that I see him returning to his own country as a kind of honorary ambassador. If we consider that approximately 800 000 South Africans went touring abroad in 1973, I want to say that if we expect tourists visiting our country to go back to their own countries as honorary ambassadors for South Africa, how much the more should not South Africans travelling abroad be true ambassadors for South Africa?

Unfortunately thousands of South Africans attach snob value to imported articles, irrespective of price and quality. Likewise, it has become fashionable nowadays to go touring abroad without our knowing, for example, where the Kruger National Park is situated or without our ever having visited it ourselves, and without our knowing where the Transkei is, what it looks like or what development is taking place there. Unfortunately it is true that tens of thousands of South Africans who go touring overseas do not know their own country, and consequently they are not in a position to promote tourism for South Africa abroad or to sell South Africa overseas. Suffice it for me to say that to know is to understand and that one knows best that which one has experienced personally. The Department of Tourism has up to the present not been directly concerned with or involved in the physical creation or development of the tourist product. Up to the present it has been and in fact still is the Government’s policy and approach to leave the development, creation and provision of facilities for tourists in the hands of the private sector and, to a lesser extent, public bodies at lower levels. I want to make an urgent appeal by asking whether the time has not arrived for the Government to enter this sphere on a selective basis. We must market South Africa among our own people too.

It is my pleasant duty to extend my sincere congratulations to the hon. member for Kimberley South, who has just made his maiden speech. He did admittedly say that it was—really a late arrival, but this late arrival has made fine progress and we foresee a good future for the hon. member.

Mr. Chairman, he has also facilitated my task for me. Allow me to extend my sincere congratulations to that hon. member opposite who is the chief spokesman on tourism. He got off to a much quicker start than did the former member for East London City, who was very slow to rise and toured just as slowly. However, one does not tour as fast as this hon. member does. I should like to review the task and the future of the Department of Tourism. In my opinion the task of the Department of Tourism is to exploit the market, the market and its requirements, as well as to determine the way in which these requirements may be met and so to promote tourism. When one travels around in Europe and notices the extent to which European tourist resorts are inundated, I think there is no better time than the present to exploit the tourist market. There are many opportunities and attractions. It is the task of the Department of Tourism to investigate and identify the attractions and opportunities which exist so that even more tourists may be attracted to South Africa. As the hon. member for Kimberley said, South Africa is already getting 610 000 tourists a year. The target is to attract a million tourists to our country by the year 1978. At present the development of matters relating to tourism in South Africa is undertaken by, inter alia, the provincial administrations, private individuals, the National Parks Board, provincial parks boards, and so on. The development of large dams and river banks has been specially assigned to provincial administrations. Something which complicates the control of tourism is the fact that there are also other bodies which are involved in it—for example, the National Transport Commission, which has to indicate where the access roads are to be located; the Department of Health, which exercises control over the provision of water; the Department of Community Development, which has to deal with zoning; provincial inspectors, who supervise caravan parks, etc. There is a lack of proper liaison among these various bodies and persons. In my opinion there is a lack of proper standardization in respect of requirements, such as those that are to be found in South-West Africa, Switzerland, Spain and other parts of the world. I think this task is cut out for the Department of Tourism, which will have to give serious attention to it. However, I should also like to see the Department of Tourism being a developer. In the first place, I think it is the task of the Department of Tourism to jump at the opportunity which tourism offers for earning foreign exchange. I do not fear that this country will be inundated by tourists, as is the case in Europe. The distance between us and Europe will preclude anything of that nature. However, I think it is the task of the Department of Tourism to make a penetrating, in-depth study of the possibilities that have not yet been exploited or of the exploitation that has not yet been carried out properly. After such a study has been conducted, I think it will be the task of the Department of Tourism first of all to find developers. In this regard, I want to agree with the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South where he said that the Department needs to operate on a much larger budget. I think it should be the task of the department to provide the necessary loan funds to those developers who have to undertake that development. It would meet with my approval and I would be very pleased if the Department of Tourism could even make development funds in the form of loan capital available to the provincial administrations. In addition, there are still a number of major projects which could be identified and could possibly be developed by any of these bodies. The other day it was my privilege to pay a visit to a development such as the Marina da Gama at Muizenberg. It is a splendid development. I have also seen in the newspaper that the Government is making a contribution of R7½ million towards the development of a harbour there. This is a fantastic development. If the Government makes such a contribution, I think it is right, but I think that there are other bodies, too, which are entitled to this type of contribution or instances in respect of which the Department of Tourism should in my view act as a developer. We have a magnificent creation in the form of the Orange River Project, with the H. F. Verwoerd Dam and the P. K. le Roux Dam lower down in the course of the river. I think a wrong decision was taken at the time, i.e. when it was decided that the Orange Free State would undertake the development at the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam while the Cape Province would undertake the development at the P. K. le Roux Dam. I think there are such wonderful opportunities for development at both of these dams that every possibility should be utilized. I think the decision which was taken at that time should be reconsidered, for if that is not done, some of the finest natural scenery in South Africa, especially in the vicinity of the P. K. le Roux Dam, could be lost to the tourist. There are excellent possibilities in that area for constructing marinas, and so forth. Developments of this nature can only be undertaken by a Government department or by a provincial administration which will have to receive substantial aid from a Government department for that purpose. There are other parts in our country which could also be developed. I do not want to speak about other people’s constituencies, but a part of the world where I often spend my holidays is the Wilderness area—at Die Vleie, to be specific. I think that that development could be developed far more effectively than is being done at present if the State would bring about some order in that area and prevent its being developed in a haphazard way.

There is a second matter which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister and his department. There are many fine halls in South Africa which can be used for holding congresses, but I think that we still lack a congress centre, a centre capable of accommodating 2 000 or more professional people brought from Europe or elsewhere for congresses and at which pre- and post-congress tours could also be arranged for them. They are the people who can spend money in our country and can act as ambassadors for us after they have returned to their countries of origin. However, we lack such a congress centre—a truly wonderful hall with all the necessary facilities. It should, for example, have a computer which could immediately give one all the information on where in the world congresses are being held, how many people are attending those congresses, how much money is being spent in the various countries and so forth. Furthermore, a language bureau should be established for this congress centre, for an intensive translating bureau will be necessary if one wants to hold a congress attended by people from different nations who are not all able to speak English or Afrikaans. We should have a congress centre which one could approach immediately. If we have such a centre, we will be able to know at once that this centre has information available on all congresses that are being held, on accommodation and on other related matters.

Mr. Chairman, I listened with interest to the hon. member for Fauresmith.

Are you the Mr. Dalling whom we have heard of?

I must say that I found he presented several ideas that were interesting. While we agree with a lot of what he said, I think we cannot go along with his idea that the department should be a developer, builder or entrepreneur in any sense. We feel that the function of the Department of Tourism is in fact a coordinating and advisory function and one of supplying information and not that of a developer or entrepreneur. I found it interesting that both the previous speakers placed great stress on the importance of tourism to South Africa in view of the tremendous amount of foreign exchange that is brought into the country by tourism.

You are a horrible member.

Mr. Chairman, those members who have had too good a dinner tonight should go to sleep and not bother to listen rather than make the type of remark that is coming from the hon. member for Carletonville. I suggest he goes to sleep as he usually does instead of making rather peculiar noises from that far comer of the House. It is very interesting to me that, whereas some R200 million in foreign exchange is brought into South Africa every year through tourism, this Government is prepared to spend only approximately R3,3 million in its budget. I think that the very arguments put by the hon. members for Fauresmith and Kimberley South bear out the contention of this side of the House that a greatly expanded budget for this department is really warranted.

I would like to join my colleague in wishing the hon. the Minister well in his task; he has an important job. We also wish the new secretary to the department, Mr. Behrens, well. I would like to say that, where they do well, they will receive the support of this side of the House.

I want to deal with one aspect mentioned by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South. It is an aspect that is not discussed very often when we talk about tourism. Perhaps it is time that we gave a certain amount of attention to this particular aspect of tourism.

We believe that tourism is not the sole privilege of the White people, but that South Africa’s scenic beauty should be enjoyed by all of South Africa’s citizens. Towards that end we say that the department should use its influence, its finances and resources to ensure that tourist facilities such as accommodation and transport amenities are made available to all races. With the urban sprawl, the development of townships and vast communities throughout South Africa, a growing number of people live together in close proximity. In these communities which are growing into vast cities in themselves, one finds messengers, factory workers, labourers, teachers, white-collar workers and a growing number of professional people. Although the official statistics tell us that there are 350 000 people living in Soweto alone, we believe that there could well be almost a million people living there. The pattern is the same throughout the country where large numbers of Indians, Coloureds and Black people every day of the week and every month of the year live and work in close proximity to one another. An annual holiday is vital for the efficiency and peace of mind of anyone who is a hard worker. The stresses of modern urban life play havoc with the nerves of all people who do a job of work and are busy, particularly people who form part of the urban scene.

The problems which are evident in non-White holiday making and tourism are enormous. Let me mention just a few. Firstly, the ordinary Black, Coloured or Indian person, the man in the street, does not have all that much money to spend There are exceptions, but the ordinary man in the street requires economical holiday and transport facilities. Secondly, if such a family, for instance, chooses to go anywhere by car there are very few stop-over places for such people. If there are stopover places, these are of a very low quality. The third point is that even where roadside facilities are available to non-Whites—I might say that roadside facilities are on many occasions not available to non-Whites at all—they are normally of a very primitive nature, to say the least. Fourthly, there is always the decision which the non-White who wishes to go on holiday has to take. That decision is where to go on holiday. We know that many Black people go back to Bantustans, if they have families or friends there. However, a huge community of Blacks, plus all the Coloureds and the Indians have little or no connection with the Bantustans and there are precious few holiday resorts throughout the country open to these people. Fifthly, information as to what holiday resorts are available is very limited and difficult to obtain. Even where in national parks and nature reserves provision is in some cases made for non-Whites, this is often of an inferior nature. Finally, when Whites take along members of their staff to hotels, we find that the accommodation offered to such members of staff is of a very poor quality.

This department is not to blame for this position. The real blame lies with all of us, our philosophy of exclusivity and the so-called “traditional” South African way of life.

I do not blame the department, but I do say that there is much that it can do. Firstly, there should be a plan, a dynamic programme, a series of co-ordinated initiatives, directed by this department at making tourism and holiday-making in South Africa both enjoyable and possible for all races. What should they do towards this end? Firstly, they should train and employ non-Whites to do skilled promotional work within the department, aimed at the non-White market. That is the first thing that should be done. Secondly, the department should prepare and implement a detailed programme of financial, technical and other aid to homeland Governments in an effort to encourage tourism in those areas. The skills of this department should be imparted to the governments of those territories. Thirdly, the department should assist private entrepreneurs to provide economical holiday-type accommodation, such as camping sites and the like, for non-Whites at all points over the Republic. Fourthly, the department should encourage the provincial authorities, local authorities and private entrepreneurs to provide stopover facilities of a reasonable standard for non-White holidaymakers. Again, where necessary, finance should be channelled in this direction. Fifthly, much can be done through the Hotel Board to ensure that non-White persons travelling with Whites are afforded reasonably comfortable accommodation instead of the generally poor standard of accommodation which prevails today. Lastly, the department should use its influence with local and provincial authorities, particularly in the coastal areas, to open up new areas and new places to holidaymakers and provide facilities in these areas.

I have not covered all the possibilities, but these are some positive suggestions. In this short time I have surely said enough, to prove my point, which is that, by introducing not an ad hoc plan, but an enlightened, dynamic plan for non-White tourist upliftment in South Africa, the department could do a great service to all of us and to all non-Whites in South Africa who are permanently trapped in the urban jungle and cannot get away from it. In doing this, the department can assist in restoring their peace of mind and help them to be more efficient and to enjoy themselves. Finally, the department, in embarking upon such a programme, using some of these ideas as a basis, can also generate business and financial growth which will be to the benefit of all South Africans.

Mr. Chairman, allow me to convey on behalf of this side of the House our sincere congratulations to the hon. the Minister on the new responsibility which has now been entrusted to him, as well as to the Secretary for the department, Mr. Behrens, who has already entered upon his duties in that capacity. When we convey our good wishes to the Minister and the Secretary, we do so in the hope that they are going to derive joy from the work they will be doing for South Africa through the department. It was interesting to listen to the two Opposition speakers, and me sometimes wonder whether one was really engaged in a discussion of the Tourism Vote, for the ideas and arguments which came from that side of the House could just as well have been raised under the Votes of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, the Department of Community Development or the Department of Transport. I should like to agree with the hon. member for Sandton in one respect, i.e. that the tourist potential of the homelands should also be developed. We join that hon. member in asking the hon. the Minister and the department to transfer the know-how of White tourist organizations to the departments which are going to be created in the homelands.

I should like to refer to an article which appeared in the South African Financial Gazette of 17 August 1973, in which the following was said:

I believe that this responsibility may not only be laid at the door of this Minister and his department, but that it should be directed chiefly at, the South African tourist, the local developer and perhaps the local authorities too. I also want to quote the following paragraph, which I find rather disconcerting:

I think this is a spirit we will have to stamp out in South Africa. Unfortunately it is true that in recent years some of our private developers and some of our local authorities have been adopting the attitude of making as much money as possible while providing the poorest service possible in the shortest possible space of time. We in South Africa will have to realize that a tourist industry cannot be built and a tourist potential cannot be developed if we do not make it our constant endeavour to provide a sustained, improved service for the tourist. That is why we welcome the fact that this department is always engaged in a scientific investigation, on a scientific level, into this unexploited form of revenue. [Interjection.] After this confusion, I want to say that I believe that the department, if it conducts this investigation on a scientific level, will soon find that the future of the South African tourist industry is to be found in the distinctiveness of the South African potential, the special character of South Africa’s people and also in the special character of what South Africa has to offer. Now, it is also true that a foreign tourist programme cannot be developed unless South Africans established a sound infrastructure for this industry. There are numerous natural resources which we could utilize in South Africa. There are also some natural resources which we should be careful not to utilize injudiciously. I am sure, however, that this department, in developing this industry, even if the establishment and the better utilization of an organization should have to be proceeded to, an organization similar to the Industrial Development Corporation, which one could regard as a tourist development corporation, will promote a synchronized and representative image of this fine country of ours, not only for the South African tourist but also for the visitor from abroad. There are various channels in South Africa which we shall be able to utilize in order to make our tourist attractions more inviting to visitors from abroad. There is one source in particular which we may not overlook, even though it might appear unimportant on the face of it. The holidaymaker or tourist enjoys eating well; this is only human. Whereas the world is approaching a situation of food scarcities at present, we in South Africa are grateful and happy that, to a large extent, we have surplus food production. That is why I am asking that this department should also institute a scientific investigation into the appetite, the tastes of the tourist as far as his eating habits are concerned. I believe that as regards the traditional dishes which we in South Africa can serve a development could also take place so that the world may be shown that South Africa is the larder of Africa. Some of our friends in the Health group will, admittedly perhaps be a little sceptical, but even if we have to serve the fatty meat and the rich foods of South Africa to show the world that we have prosperity here, I believe we shall be able to do so successfully. It is also true that industrialists and business men from all over the world will invest today in that country in which there is food, and we may not allow a situation to develop where our wonderful gift, i.e. food in sufficient if not plentiful supply, is not utilized or used to the full.

Perhaps there is something else we could consider, too. During the past few years we have had a development of water resources in South Africa such as has seldom been experienced in the past, either in this country or in other countries of the world. We are grateful that the Department of Water Affairs is taking trouble to make these water schemes and canals attractive to our people. According to some of the officials of the Department of Water Affairs, the dam which will shortly be put into service in the Bethlehem constituency, i.e. the Sterkfontein scheme, is one of the finest in the country. This dam has a natural earth embankment which has been planted with grass, and I believe that this scheme, too, has a tourist potential which we could develop. This area is situated halfway between the Witwatersrand and Durban.

It is Natal’s water that will be used for that purpose.

The Sterkfontein scheme is situated close to the Golden Gate plateau, i.e. close to the wool and the meat of the Free State and in the wheat and the maize-producing area. That is why we want to ask that, all things considered—the food, the beauty and the exhilarating climate—this scheme should be developed in such a way that the tourist will be able to enjoy what we in the Free State have to offer.

There are other facets, too, to which attention could be given in future. Since we in South Africa are far away from most of the markets, consideration should be given to working out itineraries in such a way that South Africa will be included in an itinerary for Africa, for, after all, we in South Africa are part of Africa. When we can succeed in showing the world that there is a difference between the Republic of South Africa and the other African countries as a result of the fact that development has been taking place here at a faster rate than it has in the other countries of Africa, we will at the same time be able to present the image of South Africa to the world and to project it abroad. Whereas our aim is to attract the tourist and his money to South Africa, we might also in this way be able to persuade the industrialist, the business man and the investor to use this country, which we consider to be the finest and the most fertile country, so that Africa, too, may be developed to the level which we in South Africa would like to see our neighbours attaining.

Sir, it really amazes one that the hon. members for Pietermaritzburg South and Sandton should have brought colour into tourism as well. I believe that these hon. gentlemen spoke this evening without making a proper survey. Today provision is being made in many spheres for the non-White tourist as well, and I can mention with a great deal of gratitude what is being done on a very large scale in the Little Karoo, and in Oudtshoorn in particular, for the Brown tourist. Sir, I want to say that they are very welcome in Oudtshoorn. Since tourism is today acknowledged to be the biggest single industry in the world, it is with gratitude that one takes cognizance of the fact that South Africa is active in this industry, too. Not only is there an increase in the number of tourists, but there are also very good prospects of our increasing this number still further. Sir, these people come to South Africa in spite of the hostile attitude adopted towards us and in spite of the irresponsible things said about us. I do not believe that these people come here to observe the political set-up in South Africa; they come to this country to view our tourist attractions. Sir, it is also true that these people visit South Africa because good work is being done abroad today in the field of advertising. I want to emphasize very strongly this work that is being done in the field of advertising, and I want to convey our thanks to the department this evening for this major task that is being performed. But, Sir, my question in this debate this evening is whether enough is being done within South Africa. Firstly, I want to begin with the general public. Should the general public not be made more tourism conscious? Recently I placed a letter in Die Burger with the intention, inter alia, of publicizing the Little Karoo as a tourist region. A few days later a letter appeared under a pseudonym in which the writer objected to my letter and said, inter alia, that tourists only came to befoul the environment. He mentioned that they left bottles and papers strewn everywhere. Sir, if that is the attitude of our people towards tourism, we shall not be able to get very far. I believe that our people should take a different view of tourism and that they should see it as being truly the biggest industry in the world; but the attitude of our people towards tourists must be correct, too. I know there are people who plead for industries as the only source of development and growth for a specific region, but they forget the harm caused by industries, and they also neglect to further promote tourism, which could stimulate that region. Sir, it is not only a country’s tourist attractions that bring people to that country. That country’s own people play an important role, too, in regard to tourism. The friendliness and hospitality of the people of that particular country play a major role. For example, I have in mind this evening a visitor who pays a visit to a certain part of our country. Does he still experience that friendliness and does he still enjoy that hospitality for which we are known. Is it not true that our people have become too reserved and that we no longer perceive the stranger; we no longer recognize the visitor and do not always make him feel at home in our midst? Sir, I also want to make a plea tonight that we in South Africa should be much neater. We are in fact polluting this beautiful country of ours. There are many unsightly places, particularly around our cities and around our airports in particular, that need to be cleared up. I do not think it is inspiring to any visitor landing at the D. F. Malan Airport to see all the slum conditions around that airport. Then, when he travels to Cape Town by road, he has to pass a rubbish dump—I do not know whether it belongs to the Cape Town Municipality or to the northern municipal areas—where the daily rubbish is off-loaded, and then he has to see how people are swarming there. Sir, it is true that perhaps they are collecting valuable bits and pieces, but no visitor is impressed by it and it certainly does not create a good impression of our country. I believe that South Africa, as a sunny country, could appear much neater in this regard and each one of us has a duty as far as this matter is concerned. Each one of us sitting here tonight and the public in general who often leave pieces of paper or bottles strewn about, have a duty to make this beautiful country of ours look much neater. We could refer to countries abroad. Why do they manage to do this and why are we in South Africa unable to? But in the second place, faithful to my former profession I also want to emphasize that we must preserve our character as well. Is modernization not a real danger to us? Are we not modernizing South Africa in such a way as to cast away what is old, with the result that that which is old, which is what impresses people and causes them to come to a country, is disappearing? Why do people go abroad? Sir, we go abroad to see the snow-capped mountains of Switzerland, because they stand alone, they are unique of their kind. We go to see the great and wonderful cities abroad. We go to Holland to see the tulips there. In the same way we should bring people to South Africa. [Interjections.] We must bring people to South Africa to view that which is attractive to the tourist here. And if the United Party supporters want to come to Oudtshoorn, they can recall the 1972 defeat. We must make people feel at home here. We must show them what is ours, so that they will remember South Africa and return to us. I want to plead not only that we preserve our own character, but also that there should be greater co-ordination between the various regions in our country. I fear that every region, every town, every city in our country is building up a little kingdom for itself to see how many people it can attract, whereas there should in fact be a joint effort as far as these tourist attractions in our country are concerned, and one region should publicize the next as well in order to attract people there. I want to refer specifically to the coastal regions of the Western and Southern Cape. It is a fact that these regions only really attract tourists and lure holiday makes in the summer months, but when they link up with the immediate interior, then, I believe, they would be able to attract tourists throughout the year. This is a fundamental problem for our coastal regions, i.e. that in fact they are only geared for the reason, the summer months. Then, too, I want to ask that we also allow every region to participate in tourism through original ideas, that every region should develop its own attractions. There are attractions in every region, but when we reserve them to ourselves alone, we are unable to utilize them to the full as far as tourism is concerned. When we can have the general public playing a part in the great task of our department, and if we could arrange for our regions to be co-ordinated, then I believe we should have an incentive as regards tourism and we should attract yet more people to South Africa and have a bigger share of this industry.

I agree with the hon. member for Oudtshoorn about the importance of bringing to the consciousness of people in this country the importance of tourism. I should also like to wish the hon. the Minister well. This is a most important industry which has earned us some R250 million for the year ended 31 March 1973. Now, the hon. the Minister will know, as indeed most hon. members opposite will know, that foreign exchange is extremely important to this country, as indeed it is for every other country. The tourist industry in this country is therefore something which needs to be encouraged, particularly from that point of view. There are also certain other incidental benefits which it will bring which I shall touch upon later. As the hon. the Minister will know, it is also interesting that the director of the S.A. Tourist Corporation said in Pretoria in November of last year that it was not far-fetched to envisage that tourism would replace gold as the biggest earner of foreign exchange in the foreseeable future. The hon. the Minister will naturally know that we still have a long way to go, measured against that objective. However, I am in full agreement with the remark that everything should be done to encourage that objective. Therefore, I hope the Minister will agree that when—I repeat the point made by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South—one looks at the position in that context, a vote of R3,4 million seems to indicate, or so it can be deduced, that the Government as opposed to the hon. the Minister accords a fairly low priority to the tourist industry. Of course, an increase of R800 000 over last year is something to be welcomed. However, the hon. the Minister will know that this is a highly competitive business. We are up against nearly all the other countries of the world and in a very direct way. Persuading tourists to come to South Africa as opposed to their going to any other particular country has now become a highly sophisticated and extremely expensive business. The hon. the Minister will also know that the rewards for success, at least in monetary terms, are extremely high. Of course, this is the explanation for the very considerable and much higher priority given to this industry by governments in Europe and elsewhere. I should like to tell the hon. the Minister that if, therefore, as I hope, the Government wants the tourist industry in our country to realize its potential, it must be prepared to face up to a much higher bill. As I have said, the scope is enormous. Last year, as the annual report of the Board of Control of the S.A. Tourist Corporation states, foreign tourist arrivals, which is the technical definition, in different countries of the world amounted to no fewer than 200 million people. The figure for South Africa was merely 534 000 or approximately a quarter of one per cent. Tourists from overseas, as opposed to those from neighbouring countries, amounted to approximately half of that, or to one-eighth of one per cent. Bearing in mind the revenue derived from tourism of R250 million, the hon. the Minister will realize that that amounts to expenditure in South Africa of approximately R500 per tourist on the average. I think the hon. the Minister may concur—although there are no figures to prove it—that the figure for those coming from overseas, in the sense of the definition used in the report, as opposed to those coming from countries over the border, would be much higher and the figure for the latter reversed would be correspondingly lower. If that is the case, I hope the hon. the Minister will agree that it is the former category of persons we want to encourage to come to this country. South Africa has a considerable number of assets as far as tourism is concerned. Some of them have been mentioned, for example, climate, scenery, sea, game, etc. However, it also has the disadvantage of its geographical position in the sense that it is a great distance for people to travel if they want to come here. Therefore the cost to the individual is much higher than in the case of most of the alternatives which compete for his presence as a tourist. As I understand it, and I hope the hon. the Minister will confirm it or at least enlighten me on this point, the policy up to now as far as we have been concerned, has been to concentrate on the higher income groups. Whilst that is an understandable objective, it is by definition a limited one. I agree that it is vital, as the hon. member for Oudtshoorn and other hon. members said, to have adequate facilities in every respect for all tourists who come to South Africa. It seems however to me that an unnecessary degree of constraint is imposed by this policy, which has barred our country from realizing the potential which would otherwise have been open to it. This has an added relevance in these particularly uncertain times when the earning of foreign exchange is of abnormal importance and when, according to the most recent figures I have, the tourist industry world-wide is showing a decline compared to the previous year. I understand South Africa is no exception to the trend and the figures so far this year show a decline over those for the previous year.

The hon. the Minister will also know that apart from its importance as a foreign exchange earner, tourism is in one sense a very clean industry. It is also a vehicle for the promotion of international understanding or at least international knowledge through the fact that visitors who come to South Africa or who go to any other country glean a knowledge of the problems and opportunities of the particular country they have visited. This seems to me—I hope that the hon. the Minister will agree—to be a particularly relevant advantage to a complex society such as the one in which we find ourselves. One facet of tourism which could provide a really major injection of foreign exchange on a regular basis per annum would be charter flights. These would go a long way to overcoming the price disadvantage which is inherent in our geographical position. This Government has up to now refused to allow these flights. The hon. the Minister will no doubt give us reasons why. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister at least to be prepared to review this position very carefully in two ways. Firstly, and in general, there is this competitive disadvantage which is considered a right and not a privilege by other countries of the world. There is also the question not only of the earning of foreign exchange but the direct benefit of the additional jobs that will be created. The benefits are difficult to quantify but they will probably be substantial. Secondly, within that broad market, will the hon. the Minister be prepared to consider the incentive tour market? As the hon. the Minister will know, this is where the operators are generally under contract with one or more reputable business firms which offer cheap trips to, in this case, South Africa, for an individual’s or a group of individuals’ outstanding performance in the company. In other words, in the incentive business, the market or the passengers are defined within a special category and thereby the abuse to which some charter flights are open will not exist. Incentive tours, as the hon. the Minister will know, are more prevalent in developed countries than elsewhere. This is for instance the case in the United States of America which is a most lucrative market. The hon. the Minister will know that in the last year for which figures are available only 9,6% of our tourists came from the United States of America. We only had in the order of 26 000 to 32 000 tourists from Germany. If the hon. the Minister is prepared to allow such tours they will go a very long way to overcome the practical difficulties which arise in respect of those people who are a long way from South Africa. They will also go a long way to overcome the practical problems which tourists are faced with, namely, that when they go from South Africa to other parts of Africa, certain countries will not accept South African stamps on their passports. The latter is also a competitive disadvantage.

Finally, in regard to tourists from other countries, there is also the question of race. There is no way in which we can actually realize the potential for tourism in this country in so far as the outside world is concerned if we are going to bring into it the question of race. Therefore I hope the hon. the Minister will be prepared to give an undertaking to this House that there will be no further instances such as when the South African Tourist Corporation in Britain was found to have been guilty of a contravention of the Race Relations Act of that country. All the pamphlets had to be withdrawn and as a result there are very considerable difficulties in regard to supplying information to those in Britain who wish to come to this country.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to try to indicate that it is of the utmost importance for our tourism that White South Africa form a co-ordinating tourist council in co-operation with the Bantu homelands.

The climate for further expanding and developing the tourist industry in the Republic has never been more favourable than it is at present. Present-day communication media show that there is a noticeable decline in the movement of tourists to certain traditional tourist countries, to Europe in particular. In contrast, there is a fast-growing interest in journeys to Africa as a whole. The fact that a record number of visitors came to South Africa in 1973, is evidence of this new tendency. Judging from the present pattern of travel, our country with its variety of attractions may expect about a million visitors by the end of the seventies, as has already been mentioned this evening.

A further significant development in our tourist industry is the fact that the Southern Africa Regional Tourism Council, otherwise known as Sartoc, is at present developing into full maturity. What with the various countries of Southern Africa which now, through Sartoc, are able to join forces and promote tourism here, the results could be phenomenal. We have all the necessary ingredients for a sought-after tourist product: an unequalled climate throughout the year, unsurpassable scenery and abundant natural life. We probably have the most interesting variety of cultures of people who, through their works of art, can attract tourists throughout the world. I believe that this entire tourism potential can be coordinated by Sartoc to develop and expand the tourist industry in Southern Africa.

I believe that co-ordination is one of the key words for success in tourism. Each sales method, each activity, must be designed, not only to perform an effective task in itself, but also to form part of and contribute towards the greater efficiency of our overall tourism promotion campaign. This co-ordinating function will be handled by Sartoc for Southern Africa as a whole.

Co-ordination within the borders of South Africa itself is also of the greatest importance. For that reason I think the hon. the Minister and his department deserve the highest praise for the far-sightedness they displayed in, for example, including Chief Kaiser Matanzima of the Transkei in their deputation to the second general meeting of Sartoc. Bantu legislation that is being piloted through Parliament at the moment, and Government policy, propose that tourism in the Bantu homelands will eventually fall under the control of the homeland governments. This can have a material influence on tourism in South Africa. It will affect tourism fundamentally. I should like to furnish a practical illustration of this.

One of the most common tour routes at present followed by tourists is the route from Port Elizabeth, by car or by bus, along the East Coast up to Durban. On such a route, in the course of which, for example, Grahamstown, King William’s Town, Butterworth, Umtata, Mount Frere, Kokstad, Ixopo and Richmond are called at, the homeland area of the Ciskei will have to be travelled through at least twice. It will also be necessary to travel through the Transkei and through KwaZulu. Another popular tour route the one from the Kruger Game Reserve through Swaziland to the Natal Game Parks at Hluhluwe.

All good things end up in Natal.

Such a route would have to pass through Vendaland, Gazankulu, Lebowa and KwaZulu. From this it is obvious that it will not be possible for tourism in White South Africa to be managed effectively independently of the Bantu homelands. For that reason I believe that it is of urgent importance for tourism in South Africa that a co-ordinating tourism council be formed in conjunction with the Bantu homelands.

There could be major advantages for the development of the tourism potential of the homelands in having a co-ordinating council of this kind. It is of the greatest importance that the homelands be made aware of tourism, but particularly as far as the broad infrastructure of tourism is concerned. There is at present a tendency among independent Bantu states to concentrate on a tourist structure based on a single aspect, such as, for example, the establishing of casinos. However, this is by no means a sound long-term tourist policy and we can only hope that the Bantu homelands will not tend in this direction.

A co-ordinating tourism council could also draw up a marketing programme for tourism in South Africa. It is essential for the homelands to make a study in depth of their own areas in order to determine the tourists possibilities existing there. The Transkei, for example, with its thrilling mountain scenery, trout fishing, sea angling along the Wild Coast, Coffee Bay and Mazeppa Bay, possesses a number of tourist attractions which, if correctly marketed, could perhaps persuade the tourist who was initially intending to travel direct from Port Elizabeth to Durban, to linger there a day or two.

A co-ordinating tourism council could provide the homelands with assistance by means of research projects of this nature. For example, it could arrange joint action in retard to promotional activities, the printing of publications and the joint drawing up of travel programmes and advertising.

Apart from the co-ordination of activities which such a council could bring about, it could also afford the homelands the opportunity to become acquainted gradually with the activities of the tourist industry. It would afford the homelands the opportunity of developing towards self-sufficiency. That, I believe, is of the greatest importance; because no country that is self-sufficient can afford not to regard tourism as an extremely important growth industry. Tourism can furnish the homelands with a steadily growing contribution to the balance of payments and will also help to create employment opportunities. I believe that the establishment of a co-ordinating tourism council could develop tourism in the Bantu homelands at an early stage so that when they eventually achieve independence, they will be able to play their part in Sartoc and make a positive contribution to tourism in Southern Africa as a whole.

For that reason, my plea is for the establishment of such a co-ordinating council, and also because I believe that it will be of the greatest importance for tourism in White and non-White South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, I think it would perhaps be a good thing at this stage if I replied to the points which have been raised up to now in the debate. I shall begin by performing two duties. The first is to congratulate the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South on having taken over the portfolio of tourism. I hope that he will retain it for a long time there where he is. Secondly I want to congratulate the hon. member for Kimberley South, who is not present here, very sincerely on his maiden speech which. I believe, testified to exhaustive study.

†The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South enunciated what he thought the functions of this department are, or should be. I have no argument with him on that score at all. He went further and explained the ways by means of which one should attain the objects he enunciated. I should like to refer to some details. The first point the hon. member raised—he was followed in that argument by other members, amongst others, the hon. member for Johannesburg North—is that we should have an increased budget commensurate with the importance of this industry and the functions of this department. However, let me say at the outset that I am very glad that I have the support of hon. members to increase the available funds for this department. But at this stage I must make it perfectly clear that the amount available as expenditure under this Vote is not necessarily indicative of the importance being attached to the department. I must point out that, as hon. members will know, the development of the tourist industry in general is not the function of the department. The total investment in the tourist industry in this country by the private sector and the public sector amounts to something like R5 000 million. Hon. members can therefore appreciate the tremendous importance of this industry. The only point I would like to make in this particular regard is that the amount of R3,3 million is not indicative of the value we attach in the department and in the Government to tourism.

*I am pleased that I have advocates for more money. If I had known last year that I would be in charge of this department this year, I could perhaps have made provision in time for an increased amount, but I shall nevertheless, with a view to this, use the influence which I still have.

I think it is important that when I reply to hon. members, I do so in general terms so that what I say may tie up with what the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South and other hon. members had to say in this specific regard. As I see it, tourism within South Africa, in other words the indigenous tourist, is the responsibility of my Department of Tourism, while the overseas tourist, or tourism to South Africa, is the responsibility of the S.A. Tourist Corporation. Personally I am convinced that this system works very well indeed, and I can state that the co-operation between the Department of Tourism and the S.A. Tourist Corporation is on a sound basis and of the highest calibre. In fact, I believe that we are already plucking the fruits and getting the results of this co-operation. I am mentioning this specific aspect in particular because the idea has already been raised in various circles that these two bodies ought to amalgamate. I want to emphasize that apart from the financial benefit which we naturally derive from tourism, to which hon. members have already referred, there are certain by-products and benefits for South Africa with regard to our image abroad. I believe that the corporation can operate with far greater effect and efficiency abroad than could a Government department, which is normally accused of disseminating propaganda. I have already mentioned that the co-operation between these two legs of the Department is in my opinion very sound. I want to say that we have over the past year attempted, and shall in the ensuing year attempt to develop this co-operation in the various fields in which the Department and Satour operate so that we can exploit the market effectively and efficiently.

The Department itself concentrates on the internal marketing of tourism, i.e. to expand the movement of tourists in South Africa itself. Everyone knows that the tourist pattern in South Africa has been and to a very large extent still is historically circumscribed. Persons and families going on holiday are usually, for various reasons, inclined to visit the same places. I think one of these reasons is the force of habit, while another is probably implicit in the “unknown, unloved”. For that reason the department has already—and I am saying this in reply to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South as well—set itself the target and the task of serving the South African more effectively and inspiring him to visit other parts of his own country as well. I feel that complete misconceptions sometimes exist in respect of certain areas in our country because there is the general impression that we allegedly have a limited season. I believe that there is much we can do on the domestic scene to extend our seasons. With this object in view the department this month changed the designation of its offices to National Tourist Bureaux. These bureaux will not only be able to provide the public with advice on where they can spend their holidays and what attractions there are in these specific areas, but also to apply itself to the tourist industry in general in order to market the attractions of our country. It may interest hon. members to know that these national tourist offices have already been established in Johannesburg, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Durban, Eshowe, Bloemfontein and Nelspruit.

What about East London?

I am coming to that. A new National Tourist Bureau was also established in Pretoria, while the one at George will most probably be opened at the beginning of November. It is planned to establish National Tourist Bureaux in Kimberley and East London as well early next year. Later on in 1975 this will also be done in the far Northern Transvaal. The department is at present engaged in publicising these bureaux so that as many people as possible will know where these bureaux are situated.

In the second place the hon. member also referred to the question of research. Let me hasten to say at once that this is no new idea. On the contrary. We in the department believe that in the first place this industry is a highly specialized industry and that we are in no way able to achieve our objects and aims without in the first place having done proper market research. Therefore I want to inform the hon. member that we have during the past year already been engaged in research in this particular regard. The department is engaged in this research in various directions, in particular to establish what the vacationing habits of the travelling South African public is on the domestic scene. The information, we think, will be available to us for processing in November of this year so that it may be determined which parts of our country should be marketed to a greater extent, and so that the ideal which I held out to the hon. members, i.e. of greater tourist mobility in the Republic, may be realized.

In other words, we anticipated what the hon. member said in this regard. I firmly believe that together with the travel industry the department can at present accomplish a great deal in changing the present stagnant pattern of tourism in South Africa. I want to repeat a truism here: The fact remains that South Africa is a beautiful tourist country which has a very great many and a very great variety of things to offer tourists, including our own people. Unfortunately the hon. member for Kimberley South is correct when he says that many South Africans prefer to travel abroad rather than learn to know their own country well so that they are fully informed on South Africa in the first place and are able to sell it as a tourist country with unequalled tourist attractions, in that way making a vigorous contribution to attracting foreign tourists to South Africa. The second reason is that if they know their own country, they will be able to participate meaningfully in conversations abroad on South Africa and its circumstances. I want to agree with the hon. member that a great deal could be done in this regard. Whether this marketing of South Africa to South Africans in the first place can succeed in its entirety will depend upon the co-operation which we are able to obtain from our regional committees, to which the hon. member for Oudtshoorn referred.

I shall go into his arguments in detail in a moment and reply on that aspect. I just want to say at this stage that I agree with him that the tendency exists to act in a rather petty bourgeois way and to offer regions and their potential in isolation, in contrast to a far more co-ordinated programme. Sir, at present there are 22 such regional committees. As far as the request of hon. members in this regard is concerned. I just want to say that we anticipated it and that a meeting has been arranged for November in Johannesburg where all the representatives of the regional committees will get together and we will discuss subjects such as the classification of areas and planning for the areas on a coordinated basis. Sir, with the active assistance of these committees, I believe that justice will be done to internal tourism in South Africa. Sir, as far as overseas tourism to South Africa is concerned, 1973 was a very good year.

†The hon. member for Johannesburg North gave the figure for 1972. The figure for 1973 was a much increased figure. There was an increase of about 14% over the previous year.

*The correct figure in this regard was furnished by the hon. member for Kimberley South, namely 610 000; this represents a growth rate of 14% over the previous year. This in itself may not sound impressive, but it is probably twice the world growth rate, and this means that we are with relatively great success undertaking the marketing of South Africa abroad. This year international tourism has suffered a severe blow as a result of factors which are known to all hon. members, factors such as the sharply increasing costs of travel, labour unrest in many countries and the inflation problem which is being experienced almost every year in every country. The decline in tourist traffic resulted—and I want to emphasize this—in some operators in this industry, in the travel industry in particular, suffering heavy losses. For a few it resulted in bankruptcy. Airlines, particularly those who operated services across the north Atlantic ocean, are facing grave problems, and apart from the fact that flights have been cancelled, some airlines have also added more seats to their aircraft to counteract the great increase in fares.

The world recession in the tourist traffic in the international sphere has hit those countries which received millions of tourists every year particularly hard. In this regard it is expected that Spain, for example, which relies to a great extent on this particular industry for its economy, will receive 3 million fewer tourists this year. South Africa has also experienced a drop in its arrivals figure. I am pleased to be able to inform hon. members this evening that this drop was not really a drop in the tourist figure as such, but more of a drop in the percentage increase in relation to that of the previous year. Up to the end of April South Africa showed an increase of 5% in comparison with 8% last year.

Provisional figures which I have received from the Department of Statistics, indicate that during May and June the figures were on a par with those of 1973, but that July was a poor month with a decrease of approximately 8 000 tourists. But in spite of these factors which appear unfavourable, I want to hasten to add that I personally believe that there is no need for us to be overly pessimistic in this regard, for I believe that we still have a great potential in this regard which can be exploited and utilized to the benefit of South Africa. The South African Tourist Corporation has already adjusted its marketing methods to cope with the new trend in tourist growth.

While I am on this subject, I want to point out that the department convened a conference of the managers of all the foreign offices of the corporation in Monaco, where specific attention was in fact given to more effective marketing methods based on efficient and specialized research within the market. Marketing policy is now going to be far more dynamic, with the assistance of the tourist industry itself. There will now be closer liaison with the areas where the selling actually takes place, in other words closer contact has to be made with travel agents, tourist operators, airlines and other bodies which organized tours for their members. There are still millions of people—the hon. member for Kimberley South mentioned a figure of 200 million—who are travelling abroad in the world, and I therefore think that the potential for us is there. They also believe that apart from the traditional markets within which we have up to now been operating, there are also markets in the Middle East and in the East which could be investigated and exploited by us with excellent results. The fact remains that we can only utilize this potential by going out to find the business.

We are ready for this effort, and as a result of the zeal of the South African tourism industry, the private industry, I am convinced that we will achieve the goal to which hon. members referred, namely to welcome a million tourists per annum in South Africa, before the end of this decade. Events along our borders could naturally have an effect, but I believe that this is of a temporary nature, and I can only trust that it will be of brief duration. There are attractive possibilities which we are going to try to utilize to the benefit of South Africa. In this way, for example, I think of the enormous international conference business.

The hon. member for Fauresmith made a plea which has a bearing on this potential. He asked for a congress centre. I think this is a fruitful idea and we shall in future have to give serious consideration to it. It is true that from time to time international congresses, conventions or conferences have been held in South Africa. I remain convinced that if more positive efforts were made, we could obtain a far greater portion of this business for South Africa. I am pleased that the Government, aware of the possibilities of this type of business and aware, too, of the State’s responsibility in promoting it, has decided to approve in principle the appropriation of funds by means of which we could assist the private sector, which arranges these conferences, provided the conferences or congresses are of an important international nature.

In this regard I may just mention that one important congress which is going to be held, is the congress of urologists which will take place later this year. I could also refer to the congress of the technologists in the sugar industry who with great results held a successful congress here and had representatives from more than 46 countries present here. I am therefore in complete agreement, and I am pleased to have been able to have made this announcement in this regard. But in addition I also want to announce at this stage that my department, in view of this, is convening a meeting of interested parties to discuss the matter shortly prior to the envisaged national tourist conference next month. It is too early to venture any predictions in this regard. I trust, however, that these discussions will lead to the establishment of some or other body or organization which will be geared, in consultation with international organizations, to recruiting and ensuring more conference business for South Africa.

In conclusion I just want to refer in this context to a third leg of our official tourist action, namely our Hotel Board which is ensuring that satisfactory and acceptable standards are maintained and ensure in the accommodation industry. Up to and including the last meeting of the Hotel Board on 6 August, the board had registered a total of 1 414 accommodation institutions as hotels. Of these institutions nine were five star, nine were four star, 61 were three star, 250 were two star and 1 085 were one star hotels. At present there are fewer than 50 licensed accommodation institutions which have not yet been graded. I want to thank the Hotel Board for the work which it has done in this regard. As far as non-licensed institutions are concerned, the picture is not as favourable. Approximately 50 of them have been registered. Generally sneaking, our hotel industry, as regards the physical as well as the service aspect, is for the most part prepared to meet all requirements. The board is exerting itself further in regard to the training of hotel staff in all categories in order to ensure that competent and efficient service will at all times be made available to our hotel guests. The fact that approximately 3 000 staff units have already been made available to the industry, is proof of the importance of this service and the effective way in which the Hotel Board is doing this work.

The tourist aspect which is at present causing me concern, is the question of properly trained and equipped tour guides or tour leaders. There exist at present a number of courses for the training of people for this extremely important service, but matters are not proceeding as they should. It could perhaps become necessary, and I shall not hesitate if it should appear to be necessary, to introduce legislation at some stage or other to rectify this matter and to ensure that we obtain efficient service.

On a general level I want to refer to the question of tourist promotion in a region or specific area, namely Southern Africa, and in which connection South Africa is one of the member countries of the Southern African Regional Tourism Council, also known as SARTOC. The hon. member for Geduld referred to this, and I shall try to reply to him in a moment. At the latest meeting of SARTOC which was attended by South Africa, Malawi, Swaziland and Mauritius, much prominence was given to Southern Africa as a tourist terminal point. All the delegates were agreed that joint action by member countries could accomplish a great deal to attracting tourists to South Africa. Consequently a work programme for the following year was decided on. Europe and North America were identified by the meeting as the first target market, and it is hoped to begin positive promotion in the regions concerned early next year. This is also important if other considerations are taken into account for example that we believe we should look to the marketing of the Southern African region, which for these and other reasons are also in the interests of South Africa. I content myself with what I have said. I shall reply subsequently to the individual members.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question at this stage? Is the hon. the Minister satisfied with the efforts which are being made at South Africa House to attract overseas visitors and, if not, what is he doing about it?

In the first place, it is not the function per se of South Africa House to attract tourists to South Africa. We have an office of Satour in London, which is manned by a very efficient staff whose responsibility it is, firstly, to promote South Africa as a tourist country to the people in England. I can say in all sincerity that this office functions very well indeed and that it is handled very well by the officers who work there.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to join those hon. members who have welcomed the hon. the Minister in his new position. The hon. the Minister and I have known each other for quite a long time. We started our acquaintance as members of the same young men’s service organization and during that acquaintance with him I realized his capacity as an organizer. I wish him well in this new ministry.

I should like to start by asking the hon. the Minister whether the Tourist Advisory Committee which was set up by one of the hon. the Minister’s predecessors about two years ago is still functioning. I do not believe that it is …

It is not functioning.

Well, I am not sorry that it is not functioning because I think it was an ill-conceived committee which was wrongly constituted. It was constituted by people who were responsible to the Minister only and not to Parliament. Furthermore they were not responsible to any particular section of the tourist industry themselves. I should however like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that there is a need in the overall organization of the tourist industry for a properly constituted advisory board near the top of the organization. I have in mind a body quite separate from the national tourist conference which the hon. the Minister proposes to hold early next month. It must be a permanent body which can possibly be of a statutory nature. It must be constituted of persons who are skilled and have experience in the various branches of the tourist trade. I have the greatest respect for the new Secretary for Tourism and I believe that he is an able and experienced person in his field, but I do not think that such an important industry—the hon. the Minister has just told us that some R5 000 million is invested in this industry—should be left with individual top officials, in other words that the responsibility for the running of the department should be borne solely by various individuals and particularly the hon. the Minister and the Secretary. I would have thought that there would be great value in a permanent but not too large advisory board whereby the skills of people in the various sections of the trade could be made available to the department. Such a body would benefit the department and would benefit the trade as a whole. I do not think that such a body would overlap in any way with the board of Satour. I think that it would be complementary to it. I would be very interested to hear the hon. the Minister’s views on such a suggestion.

In the time available to me I want to draw the attention of the House and the hon. the Minister to an event of considerable importance to the tourist trade, an event which will take place next year. This event will not only benefit and affect the area where it is going to take place, but will also be of benefit to the country as a whole. I refer to the Cape Town Festival which is going to be held here from the middle of March to the end of April next year. I should like to stress that this is not a parochial affair, but that it is a market promotion which is aimed at the whole of South Africa as well as Cape Town. I think many members will recollect the Van Riebeeck Festival which was held in 1952 to mark the arrival of the Dromedaris 300 years before. That festival was a tremendous success. It attracted hundreds of thousands of people to Cape Town but that was an event that was essentially South African orientated. Next year’s Cape Town Festival is intended to acquire much more of a national and international character, and to draw visitors not only from all over South Africa to Cape Town but also to draw people from abroad to Cape Town, and to South Africa as a whole for that matter. I would like to appeal to the hon. the Minister to regard this festival as a South African event and to use the resources of his department as well as those of Satour to assist the city of Cape Town in the promotion of this festival. I do not need to tell the hon. the Minister the important part which festivals of this nature are playing in the tourist activities of coun tries in Europe where such festivals form important tourist attractions. There are famous festivals such as the one held in Edinburgh in Scotland, the one in Salzburg in Austria and the one in Flanders in Belgium, to mention only a few. These festivals attract not thousands of visitors, not tens of thousands, but hundreds of thousands and even millions of visitors in Europe, and they attract them from all over the world. I believe for that reason that this festival which is being organized for Cape Town is an important event not only for Cape Town, but for South Africa as a whole.

I would like to say in this connection, and to stress it, that I do not raise this as a local Cape Town matter. If any other centre in South Africa were to hold a festival of this nature I would be just as much in favour of the department and Satour backing it as I am in favour of their doing so for the Cape Town Festival, but I do think that holding it in Cape Town does make a lot of sense. Cape Town, after all, is the cradle of the history of South Africa and of much of its civilization and tradition. It is one of the main centres of culture of the country. It is a centre which can boast of incomparable scenery, particularly during that time of the year when the autumn colours will prevail. At that time of the year, Cape Town’s climate will be temperate, calm and reliable and it will also fall between seasons so that both summer and winter sports can be enjoyed. I think the festival programme is exciting and …

We have heard all that before. Come with something new.

If you stay awake for ten minutes, you will hear something new. As I say, I think the festival programme is going to be an exciting one. There is a huge musical programme. There will be drama and sporting events, cultural and art exhibitions, shows, community events, a military tattoo and so on. This festival is also being held at a time when there are no festivals being held in European countries so that it is at a time when visitors will be looking for something of this nature.

Finally, I would like to say that I think that the department must look at city promotions in addition to national promotions as such. City promotions are likely to succeed on some occasions when national promotions will not succeed, because they will not attract from certain quarters the same amount of anti-South African propaganda that national promotions may attract. I think that that was well demonstrated by the two Cape to Rio races, which were city to city races. They were more successful on that basis than they would have been if they had been South Africa to Brazil races.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Constantia will forgive me if I do not follow up his argument, although I want to congratulate him on the ideas he expressed in connection with the promotion of tourism. I envy the hon. member his calm delivery when he makes a speech. I envy the calm manner in which he tours our country, for in that way one is in a position to see all sorts of things in the Republic of South Africa. This really is a calm approach which I envy him.

I wish to address a word of thanks to the hon. the Minister for what he has held up to us in regard to the co-operation between the department and Satour. We want to thank the hon. the Minister sincerely for this assurance which we received from him. I also want to congratulate him on the enthusiasm with which he has tackled the work in this department. I believe that under his inspiring leadership and with the splendid co-operation of the department, the Department of Tourism will continue to reach new heights. We should very much like to assure him and the department of our good wishes in undertaking a very important task in the Republic. I also want to express a word of congratulation in respect of the excellent publications that were published by the department. This is a facet of the department which really catches the eye, not only as a result of the colourfulness of those publications, but also on account of their variety, both in our country and, especially, in countries abroad. This is really something to be very proud of. Then I want to express a word of thanks to the hon. the Minister for the undertakings expressed by him in the course of the recently held conference for tourism, a conference in which 46 countries were involved. I believe that these undertakings will continue to be carried out further.

Our country finds itself in a unique position as far as visual attractions are concerned. It is not only a country with a variety of population groups, but also a country with an unusual political institution, a country with a great deal of sunshine and a continuous holiday season, a country which, through the variety it offers, is very definitely rousing the interest of more and more tourists from all over the world. The Republic of South Africa is pre-eminently a country with a tradition of conservation extending over a period of 300 years. It is interesting to note that hardly four years after Jan van Riebeeck had landed here, he was already imposing conditions on the then inhabitants with regard to game-hunting. In 1669 the first hunting-licence was issued by the then Governor. This constitutes very clear proof that ever since the settlement here the White inhabitants of this southermost point of Africa have always been inspired with conservation motives. It is interesting to note that in 1837 the Voortrekker Government at the Vet River passed an ordinance consisting of nine articles with regard to the protection of game. Since those years this conservation aspect has been faithfully pursued by the inhabitants of the Republic. The first game reserve was the Pongola Game Reserve, which was founded in 1894. Several others followed on the proclamation of this game reserve. The best known and also the largest one, the Kruger National Park, is larger than the State of Massachusetts in the United States. It is also interesting to note that at the present moment 2 737 000 ha of land has been set aside for game conservation purposes in the form of national game parks. In this connection I must also mention the areas which our provincial authorities have made available as reserves and which cover, in the aggregate, an area of 332 400 ha. It is these areas which are being withdrawn for conservation purposes and are being placed at the disposal both of the inhabitants and of the visitors from abroad as a unique attraction. Furthermore the Republic also has more than 18 000 species of plants, as well as hundreds of species of fish. Then there is, in addition, our many species of birds and our unique variety of animals Then I also want to mention the fact that the Republic of South Africa has a coastline of 4 800 km spanning two oceans. We therefore have sights to offer which have become extremely scarce in the rest of the world. Tourism implies a valuable source of earning foreign exchange for us, but, as the hon. member for Kimberley South said earlier on, I believe that another asset of tourism is the message which these people are going to convey abroad. In this potential there is for us a channel for presenting our image abroad, for which we must definitely show more and more appreciation.

Then there are also certain other aspects that were mentioned by the hon. member for Oudtshoorn, namely the marring of our environment as a result of the refuse being scattered along our roads. I wonder whether in this regard, too, we should not be given more encouragement from the Department of Tourism.

There is another matter which I consider to be very important and want to put to the hon. the Minister, albeit hesitantly, and that is whether the time has not arrived for our national parks to fall under the control of the Department of Tourism. I feel that we have an area here which really requires some pondering, deliberation and thought since national parks play such an important role in respect of tourism. In view of the fact that they do not fall under the control of the Department of Tourism at present, I want to ask, in all humility, whether the time has not arrived for us to think of a take-over and reclassification in this regard.

Another point I want to make as a last thought is the fact that we are geared for foreign tourism. However, it is a well-known truth that according to a projection 90% of our Whites will have become urbanized by the year 2000. The question rises in my mind now is whether we should not be gearing ourselves more and more for internal tourism. With the urbanization of our people the need for clean air, for being out in the open and for our particular species of plants and animals will become an ever greater one. I should also like to associate myself with the hon. member for Oudtshoorn as regards his appeal that consideration be given to better travelling facilities for our non-White inhabitants. I feel that this is an area to which we must give our urgent attention, because our non-White people are increasingly becoming the owners of motor cars and are therefore, as travellers, more and more in a position to take a delight in the roads and scenic beauty of our country.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words later on, associating myself with what has just been said by the hon. member for Somerset East. To begin with I want to say that I have always thought that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South was politically very obtuse, but this evening I discovered that he really is obtuse, because when he tells me there are no tourist attractions in the Boland, it only goes to show how obtuse he really is.

Right at the start I should like to raise a small matter concerning a tourist road which, in my opinion, is a very important road. If I had the talents of an author and a poet, I could write volumes about the Boland. I want to take hon. members with me from Paarl to De Dooms across the Du Toit’s Kloof Pass.

Now it is the red wine again!

I shall, in fact, come to the wine shortly. When one drives over the pass, particularly in the weekends, there is barely space for a 100 cars to park along the entire length of the Du Toit’s Kloof Pass, a distance of about 37 km. I understand that a tunnel which is to cost about R50 million and which will shorten the Du Toit’s Kloof road by about 11 km, is to be built. I know that the hon. the Minister is not responsible for the building of tunnels, but I want to say that the Du Toit’s Kloof Pass, with the fine view it affords, is probably one of the finest passes in our country. The pass can be used as a tourist attraction par excellence. I have already mentioned this to the hon. the Minister personally, but I want to mention again here that we could build a four-lane road in the Du Toit’s Kloof Pass from where it starts near Paarl. The waste material that will become available when the road is built could be used to build up parking places along the road on the outer side. I have calculated that 20 parking places of about a morgen each could be created, as well as a total of 35 km of paths for people to stroll along. I have before me a little poem by one of our well-known poets in which he relates why one flees the city on a Saturday or a Sunday and makes one’s way to the country. I want to quote a few lines from it, but first I want to say that it is true of all our city dwellers and those of us who have to stay in the city for four or five months, that we share the city dweller’s need to go out into the open spaces for a time. The words of the poet were—

I think each of us, the urban dweller in particular, has need of quiet. If the hon. the Minister could assist us in our appeals to the hon. the Minister of Transport, the mountain pass could be converted, with the aid of landscape architects, into something beautiful for both internal and foreign tourists. Thousands of people drive along these roads every year and we should create those facilities for them.

Then there is a second point I want to mention in this regard. Between Cape Town and De Doorns there is not a single place that provides toilet facilities or other facilities for people. I wondered whether the Minister should not give attention to the possibility of the Administrations or whoever the appropriate authorities might be, ensuring that these facilities be constructed along our roads for use by tourists.

A great deal has been said about pollution and I, too, want to raise an interesting point in this connection. Last year, one of our provincial administrations performed a test on a 12 km stretch of road near one of our cities. They appointed a few people to clean that stretch of road every day. I want to tell hon. members what their “harvest” was over that period of 12 months. Thirty tons of paper was picked up on that 12 km stretch of road in the course of 12 months. Forty tons of waste material was picked up there—pieces of steel, motor parts, etc. In addition, thousands of beer cans and cool drink cans were picked up. I wondered whether the department could not perhaps print attractive stickers and have them distributed at garages so that every vehicle, truck or car, could paste these stickers on their windscreens telling people not to let any waste fall from their cars. Recently I was driving behind a bus full of children. At one stage I had to give way and stop because so many paper bags, papers, tins, etc., were being thrown out of the windows that I was afraid they would damage my car’s windscreen. This aspect of pollution is a matter the department would do well to give attention to, with a view to making an effort to combat it. In the second instance, I think this department could certainly contribute a great deal towards asking people, when they climb or camp in the beautiful mountain ravines of our country—even though it involved putting up a notice board there—to put their rubbish in paper bags and take it home and get rid of it there. The hon. the Minister of Water Affairs is engaged in major water projects in the Boland—I mention this, inter alia, for the information of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South—in my constituency. Some of these projects involve the building of large dams. I know what the policy is. The Department of Water Affairs cedes the areas to the administrations for use and the administrations, in their turn, cede the right to use the surface of the dams, to the local managements. I ask that the hon. the Minister’s department take cognizance of this timeously and that they make use of these facilities for water sport and so on so as to afford our people the opportunity to use and enjoy those expanses of water.

My hon. friend who sits close to me here, raised the matter of red wine. I should like to read hon. members another short poem. Hon. members know that I like to talk about the orchards of the Boland and their product. In my opinion the Boland, with its beautiful orchards, is one of the finest scenic beauties one could admire. I hope hon. members have had the privilege of viewing them. Now A. G. Visser wrote a little poem entitled “Nat en Sap”. This “Sap” has nothing to do with our hon. friends over there. When he emerged from his ark, Noah said to his son—

In my opinion the wine industry in the Boland is worth while getting to know more intimately, particularly since we have the wine routes in the Boland today and also the fine Boland houses. These are an example of Boland culture and are definitely worthwhole going to see.

In conclusion, I want to pay tribute to those who have done so much to restore the damage done by the earthquake. From the tourist’s point of view the town of Tulbagh has become one of the finest tourist attractions in the Boland.

Mr. Chairman, I agree fully with the hon. member for Worcester that the Boland is probably one of the most beautiful parts of South Africa. I think it is a great tourist attraction. However, I cannot agree that it is the job of the Minister of Tourism to restrain the activities of the litterbugs. I should rather say that that was a job for the Department of National Education. Those of us who have had the privilege of touring overseas know that South Africans are the greatest litterbugs of all. It is a question of education; it is not a job for the Department of Tourism.

In his speech, the hon. the Minister mentioned the fact that there was a total investment of R5 000 million in the tourist industry in South Africa. When we see that there is a return of only R250 million, this seems a very bad investment. However, I do not think it quite works out that way otherwise there would be no tourism in South Africa at all. I think, however, that we all agree that a woefully small sum is being spent on tourism in this year’s Budget. The amount is R3,3 million. I feel that Satour is South Africa’s greatest agent or advocate overseas; there is no doubt about that. Every person who is brought to South Africa as a visitor is a potential friend of ours. Those friends of ours become our best advocates and agents overseas. All the speeches of the Department of Foreign Affairs at the United Nations and all the talks on television by our politicians do not accomplish what one visitor to South Africa does. For that reason alone I think it is justified that a great deal more money be spent on tourism. I think it is a wonderful idea of the hon. the Minister to subsidize international conventions. I think it should be made possible and inexpensive for the people who wish to attend these conventions to come to South Africa because we are making friends of these people. It is an excellent idea.

I, for one, am very pleased to see a new Minister of Tourism. I know it is disrespectful to speak badly of the dead, but I do not think that anyone who has been involved in travel or tourism is mourning the departure of the hon. the Minister’s two immediate predecessors. [Interjections.] I think the hon. the Minister is also very fortunate in having a new secretary, someone with whom we are very impressed. I wish the hon. the Minister and the new secretary a very successful term of office. We are expecting great things from the hon. the Minister, but if those things will not be forthcoming, he shall of course hear from us again.

Many things were shamefully neglected in the past by the Department of Tourism, but not one was more shamefully neglected than the Natal Anti-Shark Measures Board. I see that the subsidy to this board last year was R10 000 and the amount being appropriated this year is another R10 000. I feel this is out of all proportion and I should like to convince the hon. the Minister that a great deal more money should be allocated to this very worthy institution. We know how popular the Natal and East Coast beaches are with tourists, not only South African holidaymakers, but also international tourists. Those beaches have now become one of the favourite surfing spots of the world and people come from all over the world just to surf there. Much as we were faced with a danger some years ago, we are once again faced with a danger, a disaster, I would say, which is threatening the coast of Natal. I am referring to oil pollution which is threatening this coastline and which could, of course, kill that industry altogether. I do not wish to speak about that as we have spoken about it before. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Boksburg must heed calls for order. Hon. members must please heed the Chair’s calling them to order.

Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the children know that they should keep quiet when the older people are talking.

†We have tried to intercede with the hon. the Minister of Transport as regards the question of oil pollution and I therefore do not wish to nag the hon. the Minister of Tourism. However, when we were faced with the shark scare in 1957 it nearly brought ruin to the entire Natal Coast and were it not for the efforts of the Natal Provincial Council at that time I do not know what would have been the result. We know that in 1957, after a series of shark attacks, the Natal Provincial Council established the Natal Safety Bathing Association and started it off with a small subsidy of R4 000. This proved inadequate and in 1964 when Ordinance No. 10 was passed proclaiming the Natal Anti-Shark Measures Board it was started off with R53 350 which financed 16 local authorities to install nets at their beaches. From 1966 to this year it has grown to a colossal organization. I was privileged to attend the opening of the headquarters only a few months ago which cost R450 000. There is a colossal staff today involved in fighting sharks, in research into the shark menace and in servicing the nets which are installed. The estimates for this year make quite impressive reading. The grant by the Natal Provincial Council is R437 000, while the Department of Tourism1 gives a grant of R10 000.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.