Mr. Speaker, I move—

The primary motive in moving this motion is to draw attention to what I believe is one of the most important single issues in our national life, namely the use of our labour. Usually we debate this issue in the somewhat heated atmosphere of a no-confidence debate or a part appropriation debate. I have deliberately sought to draw attention to it by way of a private member’s motion, because perhaps that will create a setting in which we can consider this important problem in a more calm and sober manner. The intention is also to create an opportunity for the Minister or Ministers involved to respond to this problem that we pose and to do so, I hope, in the spirit in which we raise it, because I think that on this important issue of labour, we must forget our political postures. I believe that we are possibly experiencing the calm before the storm, and perhaps it is true to say that this is one field in which we should review the situation and make very dramatic readjustments. That in fact is the essence of this motion, to look at the labour situation and to try to determine how we should approach it. The mechanism which is specified here, the device that is suggested, namely that of a commission appointed by the State President, is obviously not one that we are wedded to. It is normally just a device which one follows. All I want to suggest is that I believe it is essential for us to look at the labour situation and to do it in depth. When you do an analysis of this kind and make a penetrative analysis, then a commission of experts, people who have no political obligations, might well be the best way of handling this particular problem.

I make no apology for drawing attention to the problem of labour in this country. It is undeniable that the patterns which are set now will determine for many years what is going to happen in this particular field. We are at that phase of economic development in this country where we are moving rapidly from a subsistence to a mass consumption society, which again emphasizes the importance of labour. We live in an era of inflation where all of us are conscious of the rapid erosion of our money values, and perhaps the only counter to inflation is productivity, and that you can only achieve through the better utilization of your labour forces.

I think that labour and what we do in the industrial setting is also important from another point of view, because it is in the work situation where our people of different races and different colours very often work shoulder to shoulder. It is very often in the factory situation, on the shop floor and down in the mine where there is close contact between people of different races. Obviously what happens in that work situation can have a spill-over effect and can affect race relations in a much broader sense. I think it is also true to say that that what happens in the labour relations field can have a spill-over effect as far as our relationships with our neighbours in Southern Africa are concerned, because of the vast numbers of migratory workers that we have in South Africa. It is against this background that I want to draw attention to only a few aspects of the labour problem in South Africa. Colleagues on my side will be emphasizing other aspects.

The one issue to which we must refer briefly is the question of labour peace. For years we have been priding ourselves on the fact that we have such a peaceful labour situation in South Africa. That, of course, is true. But I regret to say that there are indications and many signs that we are entering a new age which will lead to very considerable worker unrest. I believe that the statistics do not always give a true reflection of what is happening, but it is certainly true and we have been told officially by the Government that during 1973 some 70 000 workers went on strike in about 120 different factories or work situations. In the 18 months up to June 1974 there were over 300 strikes. These are the broad statistics, the official figures, but the position in practice might be very much worse. Unfortunately, in the mining industry, these disturbances have also taken a distinct line. We know that over the last year more than 60 people have been killed in disturbances on the mines.

I think it follows from this that our communication systems with our workers are inadequate. I think one of the first things we should therefore do is to see whether it is possible to improve the communication procedures which exist at the present time. It is true that nearly all these strikes in recent years have occurred amongst the Black workers. The fact that Black workers have no legally recognized trade unions may be entirely fortuitous, but on the other hand may be an important contributing factor. We are not, at any time, wedded to trade unionism. We are not trying to suggest that if you were to change the Industrial Conciliation Act and were to extend legally recognized trade unionism to all Black workers, it would constitute a panacea and would overcome all our labour problems. We do not say this, but at the same time I think it would be obstinate on the Government’s part to continue with the point of view that you can only have works or liaison committees and nothing beyond that. The works or liaison committee can obviously fulfil an important role in this labour situation, but the works or liaison committee is primarily a communication device and not a negotiation device. I think this should be understood.

The hon. member for Vanderbijlpark made great play last night of the study which was made by the University of the Orange Free State where they found in a survey that where these committees operated there had been a significant improvement in the industrial situation. Workers felt happier, there were fewer stopages and productivity had gone up. That is so and one would expect this to be the case, but this takes one back to the classical Hawthorne experiment in America where for the first attention was paid to worker productivity. There they found that when you have a group of workers and improve the physical environment in which they operate, they all work better and produce more. In the second part of the experiment the physical environment was made much worse, e.g. the lights were dimmed and the ventilation was made much more difficult. They found that even under these adverse conditions the workers still produced more. The answer why this should be so is obvious: For the first time the management took some real personal interest in the workers. That is why they produce more and not because of a change in the physical setting in which they operated.

I think the Government would be wise to remember that the unionization of Black workers is going to come. There is nothing we can do to stop it. Already you have 22 different Black unions operating in South Africa and surely there is nobody on the Government side who is going to pass a law to make them illegal. But it goes beyond this. If these unions are not permitted to form here in South Africa they will be formed elsewhere. Already in Lesotho mineworkers are establishing a union. The president of the Chamber of Mines has said that he will find it difficult to negotiate with them. This might be so, but I would much rather negotiate with unions which function in my own country and over which I might have some control, then to negotiate with unions which operate from foreign territories. The choice before us, as I see it, is not whether we are going to have unionization for Black workers or not. The fact is that we are going to have Black unions. In fact, we have them now. As such, we must direct their efforts in such a way that they will play a peaceful and constructive roll in the industrial set-up in South Africa. If we do not do so, if we deny them this role, we shall be doing so at our own peril because we shall then be creating non-White unions which might be up to a lot of devilry in the society in which we are living.

There is another entirely different issue which I believe one should look at, i.e. what our labour requirements are in South Africa. I do not believe that we have the machinery at the moment for making the exact kind of estimates that are necessary for forward planning. The hon. the Minister of Labour, talking vaguely, says that in 1977 we will have a shortage of 82 000 White workers in this country. His statistics might be perfectly relevant and entirely accurate, but globular figures of that kind are not really helpful to us. Let me pose this simple question: How many instrument mechanics will we require in South Africa in five years’ time? I suggest that it is very difficult to supply an adequate answer to that question because I do not believe that we have the basic planning machinery in South Africa to provide us with meaningful statistics of that kind. What I want to draw attention to is the fact that I believe it to be absolutely essential for us to create the machinery for proper manpower planning and for the subsequent development of manpower that will follow.

Another entirely different field that the Government will have to investigate is the adequacy of the existing laws. Quite clearly, many of them are antiquated and obsolete. For years we from the Opposition side have pleaded that the master and servant regulations and laws be done away with. We have always been told by that side of the House that this could not be done because an hiatus would be created which would lead to immense problems. Then recently, when the Americans said that they were not going to buy our coal unless we did away with this legislation, the laws were changed overnight by way of a General Laws Amendment Bill, and no one has cried over that. There are obviously many other legal enactments that should be similarly treated. Take a simple issue such as the regulation of wages for Black people. For that there are two entirely different devices. There is the Wage Act and there are agreements which are covered by the Industrial Council. The Industrial Council agreements, it must be said, cover only about half a million Black workers, and yet we know that nearly six million of them are economically active. Obviously, then, only a very small sector of the Black economic work force is covered. Worse than this, however, is the fact that Black workers are not legally entitled to be represented in Industrial Council negotiations. Obviously, this is a situation which we also cannot sustain. I think this is the type of thing that the Government should urgently look at.

Let us take the example of job reservation. How long can we continue with this farce? How long can we introduce and operate in South Africa a form of mediaeval guildism which should have none out at the turn of the century? How long can we impose an artificial ceiling on the occupational development of certain people? How long can we go on prosecuting employers because they employ Black workers in positions in which they are not supposed to employ them? There is, in point of fact, a shortage of White workers. We are not creating a substratum of Black workers. It is known right at the moment that only 0,5% of the economically active Black workers in South Africa have been trained as artisans. This creates an imbalance which is highly dangerous and the Government should take immediate steps to rectify it. There are a vast number of fields of this kind to which we should immediately draw attention. By the very nature of things I can only refer fleetingly to some of them. Take the Physical Planning Act which has now been in operation for some eight years. At the moment we know that nearly all applications are passed. Apparently they refuse only about 10% of these applications. All cases which are reasonably well motivated are passed. This obviously is a piece of legislation which we can no longer sustain.

My time is very limited and I want to turn briefly to the labour position in the mining industry. When we talk about mining we are inclined to think of gold mining, diamond mining, coal mining and even platinum mining, but what we do not always realize is that mining goes well beyond these specified fields. At present we produce 22% of the world’s antimony, 25% of its chrome, 15% of its manganese and some 50% of its vanadium. Mining as such is not only the greatest employer of manpower in this country, but is by far the biggest consumer of manufactured goods. It is the biggest earner of foreign revenue and is certainly by far the biggest stimulator of secondary and tertiary economic activity. In fact it would be true to say that if we did not have the mining industry in South Africa, we would be an impoverished State. There are a number of developments in the mining industry which cause us very considerable concern. In recent months we have had a series of tragic misunderstandings which have led to upheavals, to riots and, as I have indicated, to loss of life. It has created a degree of uncertainty which is merely a precursor of industrial instability. The mining people are terribly concerned about this because it has also led to a draining away of our manpower resources. It is known that over the last quarter the gold mining industry in this country has lost some 30 000 workers. Over the last two years they have lost some 70 000 workers. At the moment the gold mining industry is operating on a complement of only 70% of their actual requirements and at certain mines like ERPM, where they are entirely dependent on labour from Malawi, the complement is only 45 %.

Having mentioned Malawi, Sir, I hope you will allow me to digress for a moment. The hon. the Minister of Water Affairs rounded upon me the other day because he indicated that some several years ago I had referred to the President of Malawi in disparaging terms. This, of course, was not so; it was an entire misunderstanding. I think it was a construction which was placed upon it by the Press. I certainly have not referred to the President of Malawi at any time and certainly not in that context. It is true that in discussing the vacuum that had been created by the Government in terms of its diplomatic policy, I did indicate that certain officials from Malawi had come here to ask for financial assistance. I did say that this had been hailed by the Government as a major diplomatic triumph. If this particular point which I have made has ruffled feathers elsewhere, I shall be very happy to withdraw the remarks I have made and to apologize for them.

What I am trying to suggest is that in the setting that we have at present, our vulnerability has been completely exposed. Where we are so dependent upon labour from so many other countries in Southern Africa, I think it is essential that the Government, in consultation with neighbouring Governments, should consider establishing a permanent labour secretariat for Southern Africa. This should serve as a permanent consultative body on labour issues so that whatever agreements are made in the field of labour they can be ratified by the various Governments concerned.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a question? Because this motion is being discussed in earnest, I should like to know from the hon. member what his solution is to the problems which have arisen on the mines among the subjects of various States, and which were largely responsible for the fact that there were disturbances?

Of course, this is a particularly difficult question. I am losely associated with certain of the mining groups and they are concerned about this situation. They want to try and determine what has given rise to this situation. No one really knows what the solution is. The only solution I can suggest, is that there should be a permanent secretariat.

†On such a body all the Governments concerned, the workers and the employer organizations would be represented. It seems to me that at the moment Governments can take decisions unilaterally without consulting with the South African Government or any of the employer organizations.

Must foreign Governments such as that of Lesotho also be represented on this committee?

Yes, I think a secretariat is required on which these governments together with the employer organizations are represented. What is actually required is a sort of convention similar to the Mozambique Convention which, I think, was entered into some 30 or 40 years ago.

In other words, it must in any event be bilateral?

Well, if such a convention can be made bilateral, there is no reason why it should not be made multilateral. All that I am suggesting is that that ought to be done. If there is an agency of that kind, an agency which could act as a permanent consultative body, I think it should also be stipulated that no matter changes should be made in the conditions of employment of any of these workers without the other parties concerned being consulted. At the moment we have uncertainty and confusion. I certainly do not have all the answers to this problem. I am merely suggesting that, if we look long enough at this problem, we might arrive at some solution. As I say, at the moment there is uncertainty and confusion in the labour situation. I believe that this is the type of situation that can be exploited by political and foreign adventurers. I believe that if anybody from the outside were to exploit latent hostilities in our labour force, they could do South Africa far more harm than all the terrorists we might have on our borders.

Mr. Speaker, I have unfortunately run out of time. All I really wanted to do was to focus attention on what I believe is a vitally important problem. I might just suggest to the Government that they should not merely take up a defensive stance on this issue or merely laud what has already been done and adopt an air of complacency, because if they do so we are heading for serious trouble. If the Government were to view this problem with great perceptivity of mind as I have suggested, if they were to discard all the outworn shibboleths, I think we could save something from the situation. It is my hope that the Government will approach it in this spirit and that is why I have moved the motion standing in my name.

Mr. Speaker, we have just listened to the argument of the hon. member for Hillbrow. Since his motion dealt in general with labour conditions in the mining industry, I had expected that the hon. member would give a more detailed exposition of the problems he sees and the problems which are being experienced in the mining industry.

My colleagues will do so.

Yes, I hope the next speaker on the Opposition side will go into it in greater detail. What the hon. member for Hillbrow said today simply means that the hon. members of the Opposition want to throw the labour market wide open, that they want to do away with job reservation and that every non-White, whether he comes from our neighbouring states or was born in South Africa, should be able to perform any job for which his capabilities equip him. We on this side of the House do not agree with that. His entire argument amounted to the establishment of trade unions for the Bantu in particular. I want to give him the assurance today that enough machinery has been created by means of which these persons—whether they work in the industries or in the mines—can put their problems to their employers. We have several works committees, liaison committees and regional committees which yield very good results, not only here in our country but throughout the world. These committees yield good results not only in South Africa, but also in the Netherlands, Germany, Japan and various other countries in Europe.

I want to ask the hon. member, as a man who is directly or very intimately involved with the mining industry—and I am now going to deal in particular with labour in the mining industry—whether the mining organizations or the various major mines make use of the committees which have been established. With the exceptions of Kimberley, of which we have taken cognizance, and an organization in South West, we understand that the various committees yield very good results. The hon. member for Hillbrow—whether he did so innocently or not—laid it at the door of the National Party that the Government had invariably been to blame for the various disturbances or strikes, whatever the case may have been, during the past year. I believe that if use had been made of all the machinery which has been established by the Government, all these disturbances which were mentioned by the hon. member would not have taken place, and the 60 people who lost their lives in these disturbances might still have been alive today. I find it regrettable that something of this kind happened, and for that reason I want to make an earnest appeal to the various mining organizations, especially to the Chamber of Mines, for these committees to be established so that the Black man, too, may have a channel through which he can air his problems and through which he can inform his employer about his problems. In this way many of the disturbances would be prevented. I want to say emphatically that it is a mistake to request the Government to establish trade unions immediately, since the Bantu in the mining industry, excepting perhaps a small percentage of them, are not yet in a position to realize the importance and the necessity of a trade union and to accept the responsibility which it entails. As the hon. member indicated, we are of necessity dependent on labour forces which we get from our neighbouring states, such as Lesotho, Botswana, Swaziland, Angola, Rhodesia, the Transkei, the Caprivi, Malawi and Mozambique. Unfortunately I do not have the latest figures, but I think we get 400 000 Bantu per annum from the neighbouring states alone. We have experienced many problems recently in drawing an adequate supply of labour from Malawi. We know what gave rise to this, and we hope that a peaceful solution will be found to this problem. Sir, I know that the hon. the Minister will reply in person to the hon. member for Hillbrow, but I am pleased that the hon. member withdrew the charge today that he levelled some time ago. In the heat of the moment one sometimes says something one should not have said, but we are grateful that the hon. member has withdrawn the charge today—better late than never. Even now there are major problems in respect of mine labour. I can speak from experience of the problems which arose in my constituency, in connection with mineworkers from Lesotho. Sir, approximately 80 000 workers are recruited from Lesotho every year to come and work in our mines. I said a moment ago that these people are not yet ready for trade unions. I want to add that if liaison committees had existed at the mines concerned, which could have explained the matter fully to the workers, those disturbances would not have taken place. But unfortunately the mines do not make use of the machinery which has been established by the Government, and that is why the misunderstanding arose. I want to make an earnest appeal today to the mineworkers who come from Lesotho not to destroy and ruin the property of our mining companies because they are dissatisfied with a ruling given by their own Government. Sir, I want to go further, I want to appeal to the South African Police not to allow the property of mining companies to be destroyed, as happened there, and to take firm action against those reckless persons who come to earn their bread and butter in this country and then, as the result of a misunderstanding with their Government, wreck the property of their employers. Sir, since the mining industry must be the largest industry and the biggest employer in the country today, the Chamber of Mines ought to do everything in its power to create the necessary organization so that if working problems or other problems arise, or anything which is not clear to these workers, they will have a channel through which they can raise their objections and make their representations. I believe that this will largely eliminate problems such as the one which was experienced recently. Sir, I think that other Opposition speakers will rise this afternoon and tell us that one reason why not enough Bantu can be drawn to the mines is the fact that the Bantu workers there are housed on a single basis, and that they ought to be housed on a family basis. I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that that would be attempting the impossible—and now I am speaking of the mining industry only. I do not believe the mines will ever see their way clear to providing accommodation for every Bantu, wherever he comes from, and for his family. I do not believe this Government will ever approve the creation of those facilities for the Bantu who come from our neighbouring States. But what I am pleading for is that the mines should indeed be able to create facilities for Bantu who can at this stage and with the approval of the State be recruited in released White areas. In saying this I do not mean that they should be able to work where they please, but that they can draw some of those surplus Bantu who are to be found in our major cities and in the rural areas even today and who are living here legally, and that they should be able to create housing for those Bantu on a family basis, in the approved local Bantu townships. If they were to do so, I believe that the mines would be able to solve this major problem to a very large extent. Moreover, they would be getting good Bantu to work there. But I want to repeat the warning that the mines should not perform recruiting work which would disrupt the labour structure of our country. By that I mean that they should not go and recruit where the Bantu are already employed and have good jobs, but that they should do their recruiting where there is a tremendous surplus of Bantu, and that they should be prepared to house the surplus Bantu from those areas in approved Bantu townships. If they were then to provide housing for those Bantu on a family basis, I believe that it would help them and that it could provide a solution to many of the problems we are experiencing today in the mining industry in particular.

Sir, my time has expired. The next speaker on our side will, I believe, discuss in detail, with special reference to trade unions this matter which the hon. member for Hillbrow raised.

Mr. Sneaker, the hon. member for Stilfontein entered this debate with a background of personal knowledge of the mining industry and he has raised a number of very important and significant points. I was particularly struck by his reference to the possibility of solving some of the migratory problems surrounding the mining industry, problems like housing, and certainly this is a matter which needs a great deal of attention. There are problems, though. For instance, unfortunately you have to mine the gold where you find it and this means in many instances that these mines are in isolated areas where you do not always have townships for African people in the immediate area. There are some such existing townships but not everywhere, so that this can only be a partial answer to the problem but it is nevertheless a very important step forward because time and time again individual mining companies have requested that this could be a possibility but thus far it has been turned down by the Government. [Interjections.] I am very glad to hear of this development, and I hope that there will be some more developments in future.

The question whether or not the existing machinery is adequate is, I think, a matter which is really under survey in this very debate and I cannot help but feel that if one is to follow the logic of the hon. member for Stilfontein then we must say that there is no need for a mineworkers’ union at all. It is clear, if one knows the history of the mining industry right back from those early days, that the miners were often exploited simply because the employers were strong and the workers and their organizations were weak. I am now talking about White workers. I am not referring at all to Black workers at the moment. It was quite clear that until such time as the White workers formed a strong and responsible union, so as to counteract or to be held in tension with the strong employers’ organisation, they would be victimized and exploited. Now they can come as equal partners and discuss and negotiate and there can be collective bargaining. I think that this is very healthy and that the Mineworkers’ Union would agree with this and would certainly not for one moment agree to disband that union and form a workers committee or a liaison committee Here we find the dilemma that thousands upon thousands of other workers … [Interjections.] What is good enough for one worker inevitably must be good enough for another worker.

The other point which was made by the hon. member for Stilfontein was that some of the mining companies are simply not using the existing facilities that are available. Unfortunately the law which governs works committees and liaison committees or industry does not include the mining industry. That does not mean that they cannot introduce works committees and liaison committees. I want to say that certainly some mines, a great number of mines, have actually done this. I want to return to that, because I think this is the crux of the problem and therefore the debate has been advanced.

The labour situation in South Africa is neither simple nor does it have a single answer. It is extraordinarily complex and a most sensitive issue in our national life. The aim of all thinking South Africans, whether they are representative of management or labour, Government or Opposition, is to secure lasting industrial peace. Anyone who is familiar with our history has no desire to see a repetition of the 1922 White miners’ strike with its dreadful consequences, the loss of more than 200 lives. Whilst the strikes in Natal during 1973 were remarkably free from violence and destruction, nevertheless, no economy and no country can stand the repeated action of taking to the streets by thousands of workers. We must be able to channel this conflict in some way.

The continued economic development of South Africa has introduced what may be termed a new economic imperative which stands directly in contrast with our historically determined racially stratified labour market. Early in 1973, the Department of Labour released its manpower survey No. 9. I would like to refer to that now. This detailed man shortages as of April 1971, a very long time ago. The survey indicated at that time a shortage of some 96 000 White and Coloured workers. At the artisan level in the metal and engineering industry, there was a shortage of some 7 000 artisans and apprentices. There was a shortage of over 2 000 in the electrical trades, of nearly 3 000 in the motor trades, and of almost 10 000 in the building trades. This critical manpower shortage has led to a significant rethinking in Government policy towards the use of Black and Brown manpower. For example, the 1972 Department of Planning “Economic Development Programme” states—

This view was supported by the Reynders Commission, which stated inter alia—

I believe that that commission has done its work, that its conclusions are valid and that the Government itself is attempting to adjust its own policy in relation to the desperate need to maintain our economic growth, to increase it and, in order to do so, to include on a much wider basis the use of Black and Brown manpower. Perhaps the most significant statement of the changed attitude came from the hon. the Prime Minister himself when he opened the annual conference of the Motor Industry Federation in October 1973. He said—

That is exactly what one is trying to say, nothing more and nothing less than that. It is the productive use of Black labour in this country which is at stake and what this debate is all about. The essential point is that we are all agreed that our economy must be viable and that our growth rate must be maintained and increased. It is agreed by all who know what the situation is that in order to do this we simply have to introduce more Black and Brown South Africans into skilled jobs. What are the consequences of this? It means that they will be introduced into more skilled jobs and will receive higher wages and they will have to be trained. As Blacks occupy more and more essential jobs in industry, it is therefore vital that they are incorporated into a formal industrial relations system because without formal leadership the advancement of Blacks, which I suggest is essential, the greater pay differentiation for Black labour and in general the normalization of Black labour conditions, will be fraught with potential conflict. That is why you have industrial relations, in order that you can negotiate, in order that you can take care of the workers as they develop. On the one hand, if you have a vast developing Black labour force, which is a prerequisite for our economy, and on the other hand you are not keeping pace with your industrial legislation, you must have conflict. In my judgment the Industrial Conciliation Act itself, the cornerstone of industrial legislation in South Africa, needs to be overhauled considerably for the benefit of management and of workers, Black and White.

While it is true that the signs of conflict are there to be seen by all who have eyes to see them and that most of it is in the area of Black labour, one begins to see the emergence of a potential problem among White labour or our mines as well. I am sure the hon. the Minister of Mines will know of the strike at the St. Helena goldmine in which he was probably quite heavily involved, where White miners interpreted the 1973 agreement in a way in which it was really never intended. I suppose it is not without significance that Dr. Albert Hertzog was the speaker at the mineworkers’ meeting prior to that. It is nevertheless true that Black labour in particular presents an enormous problem. Of course, one is aware of the development of works committees and liaison committees and the way in which they have succeeded in dealing with what I term “household” grievances. One is only too grateful for this, but they cannot and should never be seen as a substitute for collective bargaining and negotiation. That is the whole idea of calling for a commission, not to argue at this time because time is limited, but simply to make that point.

Before I conclude I want to refer very specifically to the mining industry, because this motion directs our attention to it. Our mines are particularly vulnerable at this time in our industrial history due to the fact that we have, for so many years, depended on labour from countries outside our borders. For example, well over 20% of our labour comes from Malawi. We all know that that has now been stopped. If my information is correct, there does not seem to be any prospect of that door being opened in the foreseeable future, and we would consequently be well advised to think in terms of alternative sources of labour so that we will never again be as vulnerable as we are now. A similar percentage of labour, i.e. over 20%, comes at present from Mozambique. I do not have to emphasize in this House the troubled character of that particular country and its problems at this time. Who knows for how long we are also going to be able to depend on that country for labour? Then, of course, we also have the problem of Lesotho. This problem gives rise to very grave concern. A recent compulsory deferment of pay has led, as we know, to rioting, to damage to property and to loss of life. As a result of the shortage of labour and the threatened further shortage, the Chamber of Mines has undertaken a very intensive recruiting campaign. One may well question the wisdom of bringing workers from Rhodesia, again a country in transition. One may also question the wisdom of attempting to bring workers from Angola. To my mind it is the height of folly to attempt to do this. It is too early to know whether the Chamber of Mines in its recruiting policy will be successful in recruiting workers from the urban areas. We know well the enormous difficulties and problems in attempting to recruit workers from agricultural areas outside the homelands. It therefore follows that the homelands themselves must be seen as the pool for continued subsistence labour, as it is called. It is true, however, that we do not know how long this pool itself is going to exist. In short, whilst the Black workers of the Republic of South Africa are coming to our mines, and while one hopes they will do so in larger numbers, it is all too clear that they will not meet the desperate shortage which exists at the moment and which will be intensified. We must bear in mind that we are not talking only in terms of present needs. Enormous developments have already been announced in the Press in respect of new7 mines that are going to be opened. As the result of this enormous concentration and the spending of vast sums of money, we shall need a great deal of regular, stable labour for these new gold mines as well.

My time is also rather limited, so may I just conclude by saying that this state of affairs will surely lead to intensely competitive conditions between industry on the one side and mining on the other because both groups will be competing for labour from the same source. This must have far-reaching consequences and there must be an almost inevitable increase in wages across the board because there will be this competition. Although one does, fit course, welcome wage increases when they are necessary, this is nevertheless going to change the pattern of labour in South Africa. It is also going to change the pattern of wage determination in South Africa. We must also pose the question: How is this going to affect the farmer? Only last night I was speaking to a farmer in the Stellenbosch area.

Hey, hey!

Yes. I am working there!

How are you doing?

Not too badly, actually! This farmer pointed out to me that the had 500 workers coming from the Transkei. Whether it is right or wrong to have migrant workers is not part of this debate. The fact of the matter is, however, that he himself is concerned because he says that with the Chamber of Mines intensifying its recruiting campaign in the Transkei, he wonders whether he will be able to get those 500 workers again.

But he has all those Coloureds in his immediate vicinity.

Yes, but the fact of the matter is that he cannot get Coloured workers because they are all coming to the towns. As a direct result of this there is an acute labour shortage and we must be aware of the attendant problems. I do not have to emphasize the importance of gold for the South African economy, providing as we do 75% of the free world’s gold. This brings South Africa inestimable benefits. Nothing should therefore be allowed to interfere with the increased production of ore so that we can continue to reap the rewards of increased gold prices. Therefore I believe that it is right from these benches to support the motion as it stands and to request the State President to appoint a commission of inquiry. Now that we know who the new State President is and knowing his particular interest and commitment to gold, I would imagine, and I say it with respect, that he would be wide open to a request of this kind from this House. Last year I reminded this House that the Botha Commission of 1951 did a very excellent piece of work but, unfortunately, not all its recommendations were accepted by the Government. I think that was a grave mistake on the part of the Government. I know that only last session the hon. the Minister of Labour again refused to appoint a commission to investigate the sources and the problems of labour despite pleas from this side of the House. Despite the emergence of new initiatives by management and despite their skill and their serious commitment to change, the way ahead which shines so very, very bright for our mining industry will only be so provided that we take cognizance of the very serious problems which face our mining industry and our labour market as a whole. I therefore support the motion.

Mr. Speaker, so far we have listened to two speakers of the joint, but divided Opposition, and not one of them has succeeded in presenting any substantive proof which justifies in any way the proposal that a commission of inquiry be appointed. The hon. gentlemen referred to certain problems in the field of labour and it is my intention to deal with some of these problems as I proceed as there will not be time to deal with all of them. The hon. member for Pinelands, who has just resumed his seat, referred to the shortage which existed. I think that it is common knowledge that the Government is indeed thoroughly aware of the problems which exist and that it has already taken the necessary steps to overcome those problems. I think that it is general knowledge that private centres have been established or will be established at Bloemfontein, at Benoni, Vanderbijlpark, Pretoria, Krugersdorp, Pinetown and Port Elizabeth, which will be under the direct control of the industry concerned and at which courses will be established at semi-skilled and operator level. The centres will provide training to Black people in respect of work on motor vehicles and machines, mechanical practices, finishing work, spray painting and polishing, basic electrical work, laboratory practices and many other fields into which I cannot go now. I mention it only to show that the Government is not unaware of this and that it has already taken the necessary steps to overcome this.

I want to come back to the mover of the motion. He began by saying that we should elevate this matter above party politics. I can well understand this, because the Opposition is still on its via dolorosa, on its road of suffering. For that reason they can advocate here what we elevate this matter above party politics so that they may first go and work out what their policy should be. That doubt exists in their ranks, not only now, but that it has existed for a long time, as to where the United Party stands in respect of labour, is very clear. If we look at The Star of 25 July last year, we find the following large headline: “U.P. plans a policy change.” That policy change concerned labour. I can well understand their planning it, because only a week or two prior to that, on 18 June to be precise, the hon. member for Pinelands, who has just resumed his seat, raised the idea that “a new commission of inquiry be appointed”. That was what the hon. member said about labour matters. After all, it is generally known in this House that it is the Progressive Party, and the people who have now left the United Party as well, who have always taken the United Party in tow and have told them what to do. Therefore they cannot give birth to that policy change which we do not expect from them today either. They touched on a few odd matters without telling us what they actually had in mind.

In the course of the hon. member for Hillbrow’s speech he came back to the question of trade unions. I want to say at once that, when we speak about a matter such as labour, it is essential for us in this House to oppose standpoint with standpoint so that not only the White worker, but also the Black worker outside may know what they have in the Government on the one hand and in the joint Opposition on the other hand.

Although I do not want to deal with trade unions now, I want to say that, where the hon. member did indeed deal with them, it was interesting to look at the company in which he finds himself. Then we are also entitled to ask what motivated him to deal with them. If we look at the question of trade unions, we see that the functioning of the trade unions has to do with certain basic circumstances which the worker experiences, problems which can be overcome by means of other machinery which the Government has created and to which I shall return. Trade unions go further than merely providing for those basic needs. The fact is that they have a political motive at the back of their minds. I see the hon. member for Maitland is shaking his head. That I can well understand, because he would like to dissociate himself from it. The hon. members on the opposite side speak of the necessity of trade unions, but if one looks at the International Socialist League of January 1916, one sees that even at that time the issue was “the lifting of the Native workers to the political and industrial status of the Whites”. More recently a man with the name of M. W. Shope, the general secretary of Sactu, said at the international Trade Union Conference which was held in Geneva on 15 June 1973—

After all, we know them. After all, we know that this is what they want. If the issue was merely the advantage of the worker, they would have come forward with a different motion today. I have here in my hand a lengthy document which indicates the things about which the Black workers complain. However, this is not what the hon. members on the opposite side presented here today. It is not about this that they made their case. Basically, they advocated once again that the doors be thrown open so that the Black man may obtain trade union rights. Surely that does not hold water. Because this is the position, I say that the time has arrived when we in this House should indeed oppose standpoint with standpoint.

My time is very limited. I just want to say that when we speak about labour affairs in this House, it must be very clearly understood that this Government in the 27 years for which it has been in power, has always taken up the standpoint that it must act in such a way so as not to disturb the labour peace in South Africa. The Government prides itself in having succeeded in that. I think that the Government’s record is very good in that respect. The hon. member who is going to speak after me, will not be able to hold up a single example to us of Government action against the worker, White or non-White, which had led to those people rebelling. The strikes which took place, the misunderstandings which there were, are due to the political agitation which took place behind the scenes, and the United Party also had a part in that in the past. It is their prompting which gave rise to these.

Another matter which we must have very clearly on record, is the fact that this Government, as far as its labour policy is concerned, will never act in such a way that the White worker needs to doubt that this Government is his friend, because otherwise it will lead to labour unrest and strife in this country. What has already been done to provide for the needs as far as the different workers are concerned? In the first place there is the organized wage regulation machinery. The industrial council system, in terms of the Industrial Conciliation Act, has already made such progress that there are 103 industrial councils. There are 104 wage agreements which cover more than one million workers of all races. Councils of this nature are autonomous bodies which regularly consider conditions of service under the system of collective bargaining. It is about these things that there should really have been complaints. In other words, there is no reason whatsoever for a motion of this nature. If that hon. member wanted to be honest, he should in fact have come here today and said that he wanted to move a motion of thanks in the Government for what this Government has done in respect of the accomplishment of labour peace. There are still other agreements as well which, for example, make provision for fringe benefits for workers, such as pensions, illness and holiday benefits, etc. About 800 000 workers of all races are members of pensions and provident funds while 350 000 are members of medical schemes. As far as the unorganized workers are concerned, there is a wage board system which recommends wage determinations. At the moment there are 69 wage determinations in force, regulating the conditions of service of almost 500 000 workers in this country. In addition to this industrial legislation to which I have referred, there is a special measure which has been placed on the Statute Book in order to regulate the channels of communication between the Bantu worker and the employer. Another hon. member on this side will elaborate on that. The fact remains however, that while there were only 43 works committees in 1973, there are over 200 at the moment, while as many as 1 500 liaison committees have been established which represent over 530 000 Bantu workers. As far as the better utilization of manpower is concerned, there are many training schemes in terms of the Industrial Conciliation Act—in addition to those to which I have already referred—which have been negotiated by trade unions and employers and in terms of which jobs are classified. Semi-skilled jobs and other more responsible jobs have been made available to Bantu workers as well. Training to satisfy the labour needs of our country takes place continually in terms of the Apprenticeship Act. In 1974 over 11 000 apprentices served apprenticeships in terms of the Apprenticeship Act. The Training of Artisans Act also offers training facilities for adults and over 2 000 adults have achieved artisan status in terms of this arrangement. I give these facts to show that as far as the human needs of workers are concerned, the machinery is there. As far as shortages which exist in the field of labour are concerned, the machinery is also there. It is also not merely a question of machinery which exists. That machinery is duly employed and with very great success.

Therefore we have the fullest right to say that this motion is entirely misplaced, that it is unnecessary and may be rejected since the Government is a responsible Government which sees to it that what must be done, is done properly. In these circumstances I must express myself against the motion before this House.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who has just sat down once again voiced the continuous fear that seems to run through the thinking of hon. members on the Government side with regard to the question of trade unions. I am not terribly sure whether he is as much concerned about peace and order and improved relations in the labour field as he is with the fact that if there is any improvement in this particular field to the advantage of the country, he might lose what has been the main slogan, the main plank in the political platform of the party on that side, and that is that the White workers run the risk of having their positions usurped by non-Whites. They have used that argument in the past to whip up the country politically in order to gain votes for themselves. Sir, that line of thinking is completely out of date in South Africa; it is also completely out of line with the thinking of the Prime Minister over the last six or eight months. It is rather surprising, in view of the Prime Minister’s present line of thinking, to find an hon. member on that side making a speech of this nature, in which he decries trade unionism on the grounds that it will bring about no improvement in labour relations and that it will not lead to increased production in this country. Sir, I think hon. members on this side have made some very constructive suggestions here this afternoon, suggestions which should convince the hon. the Minister that there is an urgent need to take a good look at what is happening today in the labour field in order to ensure the future mining development of South Africa. Sir, not only are three new gold mines on the verge of being opened, but the vast mineral resources of the North-Western Cape are to be exploited at a cost of billions of rands. Surely it must be realized that with all this mining development, as well as the industrial development that will accompany the opening of new mines, labour on a tremendous scale will be required and that we will have to ensure that that labour moves in an orderly way and that it is satisfactorily and productively absorbed to give us the fullest benefit and advantage of our mineral wealth.

May I put a question to the hon. member? Is the shortage of labour in the mines and in industry not a stimulant to increase efficiency in those industries?

Of course. Sir, a shortage of labour in any industry would be an incentive to increased efficiency, but that does not detract from the fact that in order to be able to cope with the tremendous mining activity which the Minister has foreshadowed, you will require additional manpower. Sir, we have to take into account the fact that at the moment If million Whites and 5½ million Blacks are active economically in all fields. We have a tremendous potential and pool of Black labour which is five times as large as that in the case of White labour and we still hear speeches such as we heard this afternoon about the outdated methods, what I might almost call puerile methods, of dealing with the orderly development, control and incentives to enable this labour to be used fully and productively. People said in the past—and I met an industrialist years ago who said so—that we were one of the luckiest countries in the world because we had this tremendous untapped pool of labour resources. To use it properly, not only in-service training and the training of operatives, to which reference has been made, is necessary. Proper use must also be made of the 5½ million economically active Black workers in the country, to whom must be given the same opportunities in every field of activity in their labour life as is given to any other worker in the country. In other words, we have to grow up and we must begin to look at labour not as White and Black and Coloured and Indian; we have to look at labour as labour per se, and if you deal with labour per se then you have to deal with all the necessary factors which help to bring about a satisfied, balanced and contented labour force in the country. You have to consider the question of wages, the conditions of employment, living conditions, education, housing conditions, security of employment, medical aid, pensions, health facilities. You have to consider innumerable matters. These matters cannot be dealt with by works committees. Even in the countries to which reference has been made where works committees operate, trade unionism is still the strongest of all the cohesive forces in the field of labour in those countries. These other committees are merely adjuncts in the more fragmented echelons, the more intimate echelons, to enable communications, as the hon. member for Hillbrow has so correctly stated, to take place much more easily. And, talking of trade unions, the Confederation of Labour in this country is, I understand, officially against the establishment of trade unions for Black people or, let us say, is against allowing Black people to become members of registered trade unions and to form part and parcel of the Industrial Conciliation Act machinery. But their secretary is on record as having stated that in his view it would be essential to appoint a commission of inquiry to go into this matter.

Let me make another point very clear. I do not think there is any doubt that it is fully accepted in this country by all sides, despite political red herrings, that the Black man one way or another is permanently in this country, whether you call it the White part of South Africa or the Republic of South Africa or the confines of South Africa. He is here permanently, and once you have permanent workers in a country, you cannot differentiate in the trade union field. The first people to admit it will be the top people in the Confederation of Labour, who will tell you that once you accept the principle of permanence then the whole question of trade unionism is wide open and you cannot use this type of political red herring that the hon. member for Springs, who gave an assurance to his voters in regard to the type of protection they will have, tried to do. In fact, the protection which every worker, and particularly those ruling this country and the White workers will have, can be afforded only through the negotiating system which trade unionism brings about.

We have had a number of strikes in the last few years. You will find, however, that in some industries no strikes took place. For example, a firm like Smith & Nephew Ltd., one of the biggest companies in this country, completed a wage agreement with an unregistered African trade union. In the textile industry itself, if it were not for the influence of the unregistered trade unions, things might have been very much worse than they were during those riots in Durban. I think everyone will admit that. In fact, the greatest influence which has helped to avoid bloodshed for us in all the strikes we have had, except for the unfortunate incidents in the Free State, was the influence of these unregistered bodies, who had trained workers and who used their best endeavours to try to bring about some form of peaceful negotiation in regard to the problems that existed. I want to say that I think we have reached the stage where the Government should grow up and not be childish in their approach to these matters. They should approach the matter in a much more sophisticated manner, in a manner which will spell peace for the country, advancement for the country, and a better understanding of the country by the world outside, and furthermore which will enable us to proceed along the lines of the theme of 1975, the theme of detente, and that is to begin to treat people as people and not to use this old, archaic form of differentiation whereby we can climb on the back of one section in order to secure what we think are better rights for another. In fact we are doing the greatest harm in the world by doing so, because we are achieving nothing. The facts will show that in the last few years we have advanced considerably in the field of wages; not sufficiently, but considerably. This is something that was denied years ago. We begged the hon. the Minister of Labour to have a continuous rotating investigation into conditions of labour and wages in the various fields of industry and commerce. He suddenly woke up when the strikes took place last year and began instituting a much fast-moving form of investigation into what was taking place. What did Mr. Tindall, the chairman of the Wage Board, say? He was the very man who said that we had to establish a minimum wage in this country. Let us not forget this principle of a minimum wage. This is one of the most important factors in the whole labour set-up of this country. I pleaded for this question of minimum wages 15 years ago, and I was derided by the Government side who said that I wanted to oust the White people from their jobs. The idea of a minimum wage, which has today become the basis of the assessment of the poverty datum line and minimum effective levels, is something which is now a prominent feature in all countries of the world, and is aimed at allowing every worker to receive a reasonable living wage. If we can get to that stage in this country where we establish a minimum living wage for the entire labour force of South Africa, this whole fear of trade unionism and the political difficulties that it may bring will entirely disappear.

I would like now to make a categorical statement, and I would like the hon. the Minister to tell me if I am wrong. To the best of my knowledge there was a report on one of the risings on the mines in the Free State and the Police report was that there was no political motivation at all. The hon. member for Springs stated positively that all these strikes took place as a result of political motivation. There has been very little political motivation in any of the strikes or any of the labour unrest that we have had in the last few years. It has been traced basically to the question of misunderstandings between employers and employees. It was traced to misunderstandings as to when improvements in wages would commence. It has been traced to the fact that people have been earning too little and have not been able to catch up with the cost of living. Here is another factor that we have entirely forgotten about. We talk of all these labour problems in a vacuum. There is the question of the entire change in our economic structure which brings in its wake need for tremendous changes in this country in its approach to labour and the manner in which it is to approach sections of our community. I think that we have to get away from this question of sectionalizing labour according to colour. That is basically a weakness in the whole structure of labour in this country. It exists in no other country in the world. I know that there are countries in the world where people are very badly paid, but I am talking about Western countries. I am not talking about backward countries and countries where there has been exploitation. I am concerned with the Western countries such as we are, sophisticated countries who have the wealth and the opportunity for supplying their people with all their needs if necessary.

I would like to make one other point. I read an interesting account of what is happening in the United States of America. Over the last few years, despite the inflationary process and the problems people are complaining about, the real income of Americans went up by 43%. There we have an example of the entire standard of a country rising, despite inflation …

Over what period?

From 1960 to 1973. This article appeared in the News Digest of the United States Information Service, and I read the following extract from it—

This is an example of the fact that when a country can be productive and deal with all its labour as labour and make the best use of all its resources, when it can give normal education to its people, when it endeavours to look after the normal needs of communities in the form of housing, health facilities and a properly regulated wage structure, it has an inbuilt strength that can resist many difficulties which assail it in its economic life. Here is the best example one can give. The time has come to get away from this whole question of whether you feel that trade unions are politically motivated because a person in some other country has stated that Trade Unions are to enable the Black man to become politically dominant. We always boast that we will look after our own affairs and internal problems and that we do not need advice from abroad. We hear this from the Government side almost every day. I concur with that thinking; let us therefore not worry about what people in other countries say. I can give many examples of what people in other countries say, but I know what is right in my country for my country. That is what we want the Government to consider; that is why we want a commission of inquiry to consider all these factors in the light of our modern times.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who has just sat down began to hide behind the Prime Minister immediately after he had risen to speak, as has now become customary. When the hon. member for Jeppe went on talking, as usual, after his time had expired, one immediately wondered whether the hon. member was in fact conducting negotiations or whether it was his swan song he was singing from that bench.

The wording of the motion we have before us today is fairly wide. It is a motion which one can discuss at length and in regard to which one can wax eloquent. Hon. members on the other side did in fact wax fairly eloquent. One question they did not answer, of course. This was the question put to the Opposition by the hon. the Minister of Labour during the discussion on his Vote last year, namely whether discussions had been held with the Mineworkers’ Union to find out whether they would accept the registration of Black trade unions in the mining industry in South Africa. We are still waiting for a reply to that question. We expected that the hon. member for Hillbrow would give us the reply during the discussion on this motion today. The hon. member for Pinelands has thought fit to refer to the Mineworkers’ Union, and perhaps he can give us the answer. He is a man who lives in close contact with the mineworkers and he has urged that nothing should be done which the Mineworkers’ Union would resent.

I want to say a few words today about trade unions in South Africa and more particularly about their association with the works committees and liaison committees. Two poles have crystallized out in our trade unions in South Africa in recent years. On the one hand there are trade unions with White members only, others with mixed membership, and trade unions with Coloured and Indian members. These are grouped together under the South African Trade Union Council, better known as Tucsa. On the other hand we have the Confederation of Labour. One might say that they have a more conservative approach to labour matters. However, there is a basic difference. Tucsa is outspokenly in favour of the creation of Black trade unions which are to be registered in terms of the Industrial Conciliation Act. They are also in favour of open membership of existing trade unions for Black people in South Africa. The Confederation of Labour, on the other hand, is outspokenly opposed to this. Also, a kind of stigma has begun to attach to the term “trade union” in South Africa in recent years. I suppose one should seek the reason for this in Europe and America. Our people have been shocked by the way in which trade unions in countries in Europe and America are not only able to influence and manipulate economies, but in certain cases even dictate to the Government what to do and what not to do. In certain cases they can even bring Governments into power or threaten to unseat them. We in South Africa do not find ourselves in that situation. Without going into the reasons why we have steered clear of that situation up to now. I want to say that we are fortunate, for the most part, in having mature and generally responsible trade union leaders at the head of our trade unions in South Africa,

Like Gert Beetge.

I shall come to the hon. member in a moment. One is very grateful for this. Something one cannot always say of the Opposition, however, is that one often perceives some patriotic sense of responsibility on the part of the trade union leaders in South Africa. This is the one thing for which one is grateful, for it is the indisputable right of any trade union in South Africa to approach the employers on behalf of its members, with representations for better salaries, conditions of service, etc. On the other hand it is also the bounden duty of our trade unions and our trade union leaders to urge their members to produce better work and to work harder. They must encourage their members to take pride in their work. One is grateful to know that this is in fact being done by trade unions. However, it is something which could be done more often. I have said that the Confederation of Labour is opposed to the creation of registered non-White trade unions in South Africa. The reason they have always advanced for this attitude is that the people concerned are not yet ripe for this. If one considers that more than 600 000 Black people are employed in the mining industry in South Africa, and that more than 80% of them are foreign Bantu in South Africa, one can imagine the dilemma which would arise if a trade union were to be created for this labour force, the members of which come and go as their term of service commences or expires. This is not just a question of the registration of a trade union, after all. The Opposition likes to hold out the prospect of a Utopia for the Black man in South Africa if the Government were to amend the Industrial Conciliation Act in such a way as to enable Black trade unions to register in terms of that Act. But once they have been registered, it will not do to sit back and to say that the problems are now going to solve themselves because you belong to a registered trade union. It will be no use saying that you will call in the tikoloshe or anybody else to solve problems when these arise. It will not be so easy. We must accept that trade unionism in South Africa is an enterprise which requires a sophisticated management. For that reason trade union officials in South Africa must bear in mind that they have a responsibility to see to it that certain duties with which they have been entrusted by the Industrial Conciliation Act or by the provisions of the particular constitution of that trade union are carried out. If these are not carried out, this may constitute an offence in certain cases. The registration of a trade union may be cancelled, for example, if certain of the provisions are disregarded. Some White trade unions have found, when wanting to act on behalf of their members, that certain requirements have unfortunately not been complied with and that their registration has lapsed as a result. If this happens in the case of Whites, people who are better trained for this and who have been involved in it for years, it is so much more likely to happen to a registered Black trade union. Just think of the labour unrest we could then have in our labour circles. Why then should we create trade unions of this kind while this has been our experience with the Whites? In the light of this one cannot help supporting the Government in having created a forum and machinery for bringing about consultation between employer and employee—and this goes for the Black worker in South Africa as well. In 1973 it was decided to develop the system of works committees and to establish liaison committees as well, and now we are glad …

And what about our mines?

We know that it can work there as well. For that reason we are glad that 1 740 of the committees have been established since 1973. For that reason we are also glad that the University of the Orange Free State has analysed the work of these committees, the way they have functioned in 326 organizations in all. They found that 82% of these 326 organizations were quite happy with the functioning of works committees and liaison committees. Perhaps as the hon. member for Hillbrow has shown, one cannot expect those members to pay much attention to the analysis undertaken by the University of the Orange Free State, for the survey was undertaken in the Free State, where there is no Opposition. Therefore, let us rather turn to an analysis made in Natal. I want to refer hon. members to an edition of the Rand Daily Mail, the official organ of one of the opposition groups in this House, which appeared on 21 January 1975. I quote from an article entitled “Most firms for works committees”. The article reads:

Then an important thing follows. I shall come in a moment to facts which will interest the hon. members who come from the Witwatersrand. I quote further:

The very next day, however, another article appeared under the heading “Do something!” I quote:

The article concludes:

It is not very difficult, after all, to see who the people are who clamour for Black trade unions every day. After all, the hon. member for Hillbrow comes from the Witwatersrand, and so do the hon. members for Jeppe, Johannesburg North and Orange Grove. The only pity is that Pinelands is not also situated on the Witwatersrand. These are the people who clamour for better relationships and for better machinery every day. Here, however, their own Press is saying that the machinery is there and that it can work. Now their Press wants to know from them why they do not use it. We from this side also wish to pose the question: “What are you waiting for? For more strikes?”

Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to be the last speaker on this side of the House in this debate and for that reason I regard it as my duty to discuss in brief a few points which were raised by previous hon. speakers. I must say that I listened with interest to the hon. member for Pretoria East. He said that the establishment of trade unions for Black workers was not a desirable step at this stage, since the Black worker was not ripe for it. I want to tell the hon. member that to my mind his statement is a sign of progress. If we were to put the same proposition to the hon. member for Springs, he would say “Trade unions for the Black workers? Most decidedly, never!” Am I right? The hon. member for Springs says “Never”, while the hon. member for Pretoria East political purposes, merely says that the Black workers are not yet ripe for it. In other words, there is a possibility that they will in fact become ripe enough.

I never said so.

I find it pleasing that, since the hon. young member was talking about verligtheid and verkramptheid, he has at least seen a glimmer of light. I think there will be other glimmers of light as well.

We are living in a time of change. To show how quickly things are changing, I just want to point out that whereas only a day or two ago the Nico Malan Theatre was only partially opened, the theatre has now been opened without restrictions.

Are you pleased?

That is why I say one should be grateful for the crumbs of progress which drop from the table of the National Party. That is why I am pleased that the hon. member for Pretoria East adopted that attitude.

I found it a pleasure to listen to the debate which was conducted this afternoon. That side as well as this side of the House endeavoured at all times to discuss calmly a matter which is of great importance to South Africa. Perhaps there was just one false note, and that was struck by the hon. member for Springs. He was like a concertina in a string ensemble. I did not quite understand his behaviour. He was on the war-path, but I still do not know what about. The hon. member made a few statements which I want to touch on briefly. I want to ask the hon. member please to listen attentively. In labour debates in this House we deal with certain matters over and over again. Nevertheless hon. members go on making the same mistake time and again—I will not say deliberately; perhaps they do not read the speeches. What did the hon. member for Springs say? He said we wanted trade unions for the Black workers so that they could be placed in a position to abuse these trade unions for political purposes.

Is that not correct?

Let me put it to the hon. member this way: There are Black trade unions at present, and our only fear is that, since those approximately 20 trade unions are totally without control, the situation may arise that those trade unions may indeed abuse their position for political purposes. The Government has no control over them whatsoever. What we are requesting in this House is that the Government should act wisely, even at this stage, when the people are perhaps not yet ripe enough. Let them, even at this stage, grant the advanced Bantu representation in these bodies, let them organize the labour position in South Africa properly and allow the people to become accustomed to machinery which is very, very old. The hon. member for Stilfontein is very proud of his works committees, and I have no objection to them. They seem to me to be a good instrument as a transitional stage. Now the hon. member is complaining that no use is being made of this particular instrument in the mining industry.

Why not?

Now the hon. member is asking me “Why not?” Why does the hon. member not ask the Minister of Mines? Why does he not ask the Minister of Labour? Surely I am not the person to reply to this question. That hon. member is sitting on the Government side. He should raise his voice a little and tell his voters that the Government is not doing its duty. I shall tell you that the hon. the Minister of Labour will be the first one to listen to the hon. member for Stilfontein.

I feel that there is no problem as far as that is concerned. I should like to tell the hon. member for Springs that we already have trade unions in South Africa, trade unions that have been in existence for many years and which were often used for political purposes prior to 1924. Since then we have had responsible action on the part of the trade unions, properly balanced action on the part of trade unionism in South Africa. And now I should like to know from the hon. member what there is left for him to be afraid of. Why does he not hold talks with the White trade unions; what initiative is he taking? Now people are asking whether the White trade unions in the mining sector have been consulted. Has the Government done anything? Has the Minister of Labour or the Minister of Mines said, “Has the time not arrived for us to effect a change?” But they remain silent and are afraid, and I should like to know why. After all, I have never known the Afrikaner to be a fearful person. If they want to take action, it will be found that the field is wide open for a change in South Africa, even at the Nico Malan.

There is a motion before the House requesting the appointment of a commission. The question which immediately presents itself to me is whether or not it is necessary. The hon. member for Pinelands has stated that the labour question is complex. I want to say that I have no doubt that the problem will be twice as complex in ten or 20 years’ time. I feel that if there are questions in the air and if there are specific unanswered questions in respect of the labour question in South Africa, we have made out a case for a commission to be appointed to investigate the matter. If I remember correctly, the last commission was appointed in 1951. It was a commission which investigated this matter, but, as the hon. member for Pinelands said, not all the recommendations were accepted. Since that time far-reaching and radical changes have taken place in South Africa, not only as far as the real position is concerned, but also in the outlook of the Government. In 1951 the standpoint was that the Bantu were strangers and that the time would come when they would disappear from the South African labour scene. Today this is no longer the case, and we find that they are being incorporated in increasing numbers. This is a basic change which has taken place during the last 20 years. In my humble opinion, this in itself presents South Africa with a position which requires penetrating investigation.

We speak about change. In our labour field in South Africa I see tremendous changes which will have to take place. We are certain of a few things, although we do not know what the total scope of the changes will be in the next 10 to 15 years. We do know, however, that the people in South Africa will have to double or even triple their production capacity if they want to maintain their standard of living. This will mean that numerous new growth points will have to be created in the industrial sphere in South Africa. This will result in the movement of large numbers of people, White and non-White, all over this field. With the conditions prevailing in South Africa this will create problems which, in my humble opinion, will require penetrating investigation. For that reason I want to tell the hon. the Minister of Mines that we are not merely trying to be critical. We are also trying to indicate that this is a matter which, after 25 years, has to be investigated properly. It does not seem to me that any reason has yet been advanced for not investigating it. No right-thinking hon. member can rise in this hon. House and say that we do not have problems. The question which arises is whether they have solutions to all the problems. As someone who readily participates in debates in this House, I say that if they do not have them, a commission should be appointed in which we can combine the best minds in the country to examine the position, in the hope that we shall thus find a better solution than we ourselves could find. Sir, this is the state of affairs. The worker, as a person and as a production unit, will be very intimately involved in these changes I am discussing, for the White man will not wonk only with fellow Whites, as was originally envisaged; he will also work with 10 to 15 non-Whites. A completely new labour field will be created and as the Bantu is absorbed and becomes more sophisticated, he will make new demands on South African society, even in the sphere of trade-unionism. Sir, we cannot ignore these things; we know that these things are going to come. Sir, Bantu trade unions will come, as the hon. member for Hillbrow said; it is just a question of time, and that is why we are asking the Government to have the matter investigated and to make all the necessary adjustments now, perhaps not as rapidly as in the case of the Nico Malan, i.e. within the space of 24 hours. But make a start right now. The Government should not be afraid of making a start with the necessary adjustments, even at this stage; it has the courage to do so. Sir, as far as labour arrangements are concerned, as far as bargaining machinery is concerned, we are still making use of labour legislation today which had its origin in 1924, 50 years ago. How can anyone suggest that that foundation is still completely sound today? Of course it is bound to show cracks after 50 years. Sir, we repeat the request to the Government: Investigate the matter; do not be afraid of what you might find; surely we have nothing to hide. That is why the hon. member for Hillbrow has introduced this motion in all sincerity and we are debating it in earnest and asking the Government not to be afraid; to investigate this matter and then to tell South Africa, “We have a new dispensation for the labour problems of South Africa; here it is; we shall see what can be done in the next 20 years.”

Sir, the hon. member for Pretoria East is so interested in this labour debate that he has left the debating chamber. I want to tell him that we are acting as a responsible Opposition, an Opposition that does not merely scold and disparage and speak of throwing open the sluice-gates to the Black workers, an Opposition that does not play politics, but an Opposition which is trying to make a constructive contribution in the interests of South Africa. We are asking the hon. the Minister, fully aware of our responsibility: Would you not like to examine the problem with us and see whether we cannot perhaps find answers to the questions which are as yet unanswered?

Sir, together with the hon. member who has just resumed his seat and other hon. members on that side of the House, I should just like to consider this problem. But we must consider this problem very sensibly, quietly and calmly and then take a decision which we believe will in this regard be in the interests of the Republic of South Africa. Although I welcome this debate very sincerely, and also the calm and pleasant spirit in which it was conducted, let me say at once that the Government of course regards this matter of labour as being very vital and very important, and that it is the considered standpoint of the Government to do everything in its power to establish a satisfied and stable labour market in South Africa, a labour market consisting of White, Bantu, Coloured and Indian workers. There must be no doubt at all about this.

Before saying a few words on the motion, I want to refer to the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. He referred to the question of trade unions on the mines, to works committees, etc. Sir, let me state at the very outset of this discussion that I have no doubt at all that this system of works committees, which affords the Bantu an opportunity of negotiating with the employers and of learning to negotiate in a responsible manner, is a brilliant and outstanding system, and that one should be careful here not to try to run before one has learnt to crawl. And if one does not begin on such a firm basis, one is going to run into difficulties in South Africa, just as other countries have run into serious difficulties, for then one would be saddled with an exploitable situation, in which the very workers whom one wants to be satisfied can be exploited for political and other objectives on a large scale by bodies whose first concern is not the workers’ interests, but who have political designs. For that reason I am personally delighted at the sensible manner in which the establishment of works committees proceeded, so that they may be used as a foundation on which to build until an answer is found which, in South Africa’s circumstances, will be the best answer. What is going to happen in future no one knows for certain. But if the foundation has been laid well and correctly, the foundation of one of our most important and burning issues, namely the trade union movement, there is no one in this House who will not admit that one has set about doing so in a very sensible way. And that these are working well, is proved by the fact that we have had approximately 300 strikes. But do you know, Sir, that if you analyse the position, you will find that 281 of those strikes took place where there were no liaison or works committees. Strikes occurred in only 19 cases where liaison and works committees did exist. At present there are more than 1 700—this is the latest figure—liaison and works committees serving approximately half a million Bantu workers. The hon. member asked, with reference to what the hon. member for Stilfontein said, whether I had discussed these matters with the bodies concerned. Let me inform you now, Sir, that I had Mr. Harry Oppenheimer in person here in my office in the House of Assembly where we discussed this matter at length, and I think I convinced the hon. gentleman that this system of works committees forms a very excellent basis, or foundation, from which one can operate. I read in the newspapers the other day that they have now made a start with these committees at Kimberley as well. This very week I received another letter from Mr. John Lamb, the Public Relations Adviser of the Chamber of Mines of South Africa, in which he wrote, inter alia, the following—

We all agree that “communications between management and labour” are of vital importance.

†It is important, but if the inference is made that we do not give the necessary attention to communications then I say that is not correct because the Chamber of Mines are doing it, we are doing it on the part of the Government and all responsible bodies realize that that is the vital point and are trying wherever possible to establish a good rapport between labour on the one hand and management on the other hand; and if we are successful in establishing a good rapport then we will be successful in creating a peaceful, stable, satisfied and happy labour force in South Africa. I make bold to say that we are progressing in this respect. Then Mr. Lamb, the Public Relations Adviser, added this—

*Sir, I can give the assurance that at the time of the strikes and disturbances which occurred on the mines, not a week went by in which I did not hold personal talks with the bodies concerned, and in which I did not call the people of the other departments together to conduct those talks jointly with me. We did not issue a spate of statements on these matters because it was not necessary. However, serious attention is in fact being given to these matters.

We come then to this motion which calls for a commission of inquiry, i.e. that the State President should appoint such a commission of inquiry into the labour situation in South Africa, with particular reference to the mining industry. Now let us consider this matter calmly and quietly. I want to try at once to eliminate a misunderstanding. I know of no other country in the world in which there is greater labour peace than there is in South Africa. Viewed in the light of the fact that we are dealing here with a powerful Bantu, Coloured, Indian and White labour force, this is certainly a very great and wonderful record of which one may be proud. If hon. members shake their heads they need only go to other countries to establish what the circumstances in those countries are. I talk to many people from overseas who visit this country, and I have been overseas myself to see how matters stand there. Let me tell hon. members that South Africa truly has good reason to be proud of its labour force. Nothing the hon. members say can detract in the least from the fact that we have built up a proud record in this regard. I am not saying that there are no problems, but the hon. members should go and see what problems are being experienced in Germany, Great Britain, America and Italy and then compare these with our problems and circumstances. They will then see that South Africa, as far as this matter is concerned, glitters like a diamond and like gold, as I shall indicate in a moment.

The motion calls for the appointment of a commission of inquiry, and I want to say at once that I am very, very sympathetically disposed to this. We should like to do what is in the best interests of South Africa. However, if we examine the question more closely, we see that the Industrial Conciliation Act has already proved itself in respect of wage negotiation and the system of collective bargaining in terms of that Act, and that our system is the envy of numerous other countries. Experts from other countries have told me personally that they think South Africa’s industrial conciliation system is one of the very best in the world, and that is most certainly true. Already there are more than 100 autonomous industrial councils that are constantly giving consideration to conditions of service. These councils control 104 wage agreements, as well as a further 93 agreements which make provision for fringe benefits such as pension, medical and vacation benefits. More than a million workers are sharing in the benefits of these agreements. I have made rather a close study of this subject, and I can honestly say that I know of no system of negotiation in any country which I would accept in exchange for our own industrial conciliation system. I have examined the systems of Germany, Great Britain and America, but ours is the best for our circumstances, and the history of this system has proved this.

As far as unorganized workers are concerned, the wage board system has been established. However, this system is a complicated one, and one has to delve deeply into it from early in the morning until late at night before one will be able to understand it in any way. One must first become conversant with what the system makes provision for before one can speak with authority on it, and express an opinion as to what system is the best. The conditions of service of almost 500 000 workers are governed by 69 Wage Board system determinations.

We have a channel of communication for Bantu and to enable us to develop this further, the Bantu Labour Relations Regulation Act was passed. I have already pointed out that in just over a year more than 1 700 such committees were established in terms of the Act, offering representation to more than 500 000 Bantu.

Looking at the question of training which is of cardinal importance for sound labour relations in South Africa, we find the National Apprenticeship Board which is constantly providing the Minister with advice. The 32 apprenticeship and 30 subcommittees are constantly giving consideration to training requirements. Unfortunately I do not have sufficient time at my disposal to indicate how much progress has for example, been made with the training of Bantu workers in the White areas in South Africa during the past two months alone. The hon. members would do well to take a little trouble to establish the facts. And now I am not even mentioning the training of Whites. The hon. member for Pinelands mentioned the shortages which came to light as a result of the manpower survey. He pointed out that there had been a shortage of 97 000 in 1971. He is quite right, but apparently he failed to ascertain that that shortage had, according to the 1973 manpower survey of the Department of Labour, dropped to 71 190. I can furnish him with all the figures. In professional occupations there is a shortage of 11 800; in the clerical section, 6 300; transport and communication, 8 800; services, 6 100; and artisans and apprentices, 16 800. Unfortunately I do not have the time to tell the hon. member for Hillbrow now what the requirements in a certain category of work will be in five years’ time. But we are able to do so. Hon. members do not acquaint themselves with the powerful machinery which has been created in regard to our manpower and the future planning in regard to it. I must be brief now and therefore I will only be able to sketch the broad outlines, although I have very detailed particulars here. Quite a number of bodies are constantly investigating labour matters in this country, which would make a commission of inquiry in this regard absolutely unnecessary and superfluous. I want to mention the manpower survey of the Department of Labour, as well as the brilliant work being done in this connection by the Human Sciences Research Council. In addition there is the Economic Advisory Council of the Prime Minister, the Scientific Manpower Advisory Board, the Department of Statistics, which is constantly engaged in these matters, as well as the economic research bureaux at our universities. After all, we are all acquainted with the one at Stellenbosch. Their findings are regularly quoted here. To try to create the impression here that we do not know what the future requirements, etc., are, is not correct.

In regard to our mines, I can refer the hon. member to a brilliant piece of work which was recently done in this regard which enables us to know precisely what the available manpower position should be in the year 2000, 2025 and by the year 2050 in respect of Bantu labour, in respect of White labourers and particularly in respect of highly skilled technical people in the mining industry, such as mining engineers, chemical engineers and similar professions. Work in this regard is therefore being done.

Upon considering the set-up further, we see that the Committee for the Better Utilization of Manpower is constantly engaged in this entire matter. If we take the entire spectrum into consideration, we find that all these matters are being properly attended to, and that South Africa therefore has reason to be proud. With the best will in the world I cannot find in regard to the general labour situation that a case can be made out for appointing a commission of inquiry at this stage, while all these bodies are engaged in this matter, because we could create more problems with a commission of inquiry than we would solve in the process.

What do we see when we consider the position on the mines in particular? It is very important that hon. members should take cognizance of the fact that in December 1973 there was an average of 42 000 Whites being employed on the mines. There was a shortage of 650. A total of 437 000 Bantu workers were being employed, with a shortage of 15 000. In addition there were 17 Asiatics and 900 Coloureds, with no shortages in these categories. Let us consider what the position was in December 1974, a year later, for this is what this entire discussion is all about. We must not lose our heads in regard to this matter; it is really not necessary. A time will still come when South Africa will be very grateful for this process which it is going through, for in the process our mines have been forced to mechanize and to become less dependent on foreign labour. As surely as we are discussing these things now, we are going to benefit from them. Therefore, instead of being unrealistic, let us be grateful for what we can learn in the process and grateful that the circumstances are forcing us to be independent and autonomous as far as our most powerful exchange earner and our largest industry in the Republic of South Africa is concerned. If we examine the position in December 1974 we see that a total of 73 000 Whites were being employed—a thousand more than in the previous year While the shortage was only 450. At the time 389 000 Bantu were being employed, with a shortage of 93 000. However, hon. members must bear in mind that the mining industry is growing every year, and that the position in reality is that even if more Bantu were being employed, the number would still be less than the number we really require. From South Africa and its immediate neighbouring states the mining industry has so far this year been able to recruit between 4 000 and 5 000 more Bantu recruits than during the same period last year. The labour position ought to improve considerably if the intensified recruiting in these particular areas can be maintained. Therefore I do not want to say that the general position in regard to our mines, and as far as Bantu labour is concerned, is the best in the world. There was a shortage, as I have indicated, but there was no year, while this matter has been my concern, in which there was no shortage. The only difference is that the shortage is greater now in comparison with 1973.

Far greater.

That is quite true, but let us consider the facts again. A commission of inquiry is now being requested here. However, I want to quote what the Chamer of Mines said—

[Interjections.] No, wait a minute.

How can you say that?

No, look, there is after all only one criterion which can be applied, and that is production.

Development work has stopped.

Allow me to state the facts. I think these are very important facts. I quote again—

Because they moved workers from development to stoping.

I admit that, but surely I have already said that the labour situation on the mines is improving. In spite of the shortage, production dropped by only 0,4%. The labour situation is therefore improving. Hon. members must bear in mind that the Chamber of Mines has budgeted R150 million, which it is spending in respect of increased mechanization, etc. Does the hon. member honestly think that a country like South Africa, with all its exceptional abilities and technical skills, will not succeed and will not produce results if it makes R150 million available for better and greater mechanization? We are producing results, and that is why I am able to furnish these impressive figures to the House this afternoon.

However, we have been requested here to appoint a commission of inquiry. What better authority can I quote in this regard than the Chamber of Mines? The Chamber of Mines, which has made a very thorough study of this matter, has informed me that according to them it would not be the right thing to do if we were now to appoint a commission of inquiry into mining matters. [Interjections.] No, they say it is not in the interests of South Africa to appoint a commission of inquiry at the moment. I shall quote their decision verbatim—

Why would it not be a good thing? Because the Chamber of Mines, the Mineworkers’ Union and all related bodies are giving very serious attention to the matter. They are, in addition, achieving great success. I do not want to spend too much time on this, but I do want to say that it is the immediate target of the Chamber of Mines and the other bodies to become 50% dependent on foreign Bantu on the mines, instead of the present 75%. Surely we will then be able to be proud of the fact that our most powerful industry in South Africa had produced those results. Now, the following question may be put in respect of the disturbances on the mines: What steps are being taken by the gold-mining industry to investigate and limit disturbances in compounds on the mines? Let me tell the hon. members candidly that I admire the way in which these people are trying to resolve and deal with the matter. No commission of inquiry in the world could have done it better than these people, who are working day and night on this problem.

†The Human Resources Laboratory of the Chamber of Mines’ Research Organization is conducting a top priority research programme in this respect. The channels of communication between mine management and Black workers are being investigated and where necessary they are revised almost on a daily basis. I want to thank them for the excellent work they are doing. Thirdly, attempts are continuing to narrow the inter-group differences in the rates of pay for various job categories which was one of the prime reasons for the disturbances and the difficulties we have experienced. Fourthly, the security organization of one of the groups has been instructed to study the recent disturbances at the different levels.

*After everything I have said, I think that I have advanced and motivated sufficient reasons for such a commission of inquiry not being necessary. Although we are very sympathetic to the request and although we are grateful for the opportunity we have had of discussing this matter, it will not be wise and in the interests of South Africa to appoint a commission of inquiry now. I have the support of those people who are very closely involved in this matter. They also feel that a commission of inquiry is not appropriate under the present circumstances.

Mr. Speaker, since we have now had the opportunity of discussing this matter in some detail. I shall withdraw my motion with your leave and with the leave of the House.

With leave, motion withdrawn.

Mr. Speaker, I move—