Mr. Speaker, the business of the House for the next few days will be as follows: After the Water Amendment Bill has been disposed of, we shall continue with the Forestry Vote. Then we shall take the Votes of the hon. the Minister of Health and of Coloured, Rehoboth and Nama Relations. If there is any time left, we shall deal with some legislation. On Wednesday we shall discuss the proposals relating to the consolidation of the Bantu homelands, which discussion is expected to last two days. We hope, therefore, to conclude this discussion on Friday, whereupon we shall proceed with legislation.

Mr. Speaker, I want to begin by saying that the Bill which is before the House today was referred to a Select Committee. I just want to say that I am glad there was general agreement on the Committee and I want to thank hon. members who served on the Select Committee for their consideration of this Bill. I now move—

In respect of clause 1 I should like to mention that after the passing of section 9B of the Water Act in 1971, it appeared that the way the section was worded, it did not serve its purpose, namely to prevent any person from storing more than one hundred morgen feet of public water or withdrawing more than four cusecs of water from a public stream, except under the authority of a permit. The way the section is worded at the moment, it is still permissible for any person to construct on any property more than one water work in which more than a hundred morgen feet in aggregate can be stored or by means of which more than four cusecs in aggregate can be diverted, provided that the capacity of any single water work does not exceed the prescribed limit. Consequently the wording of the section has to be improved.

As far as clauses 2 and 3 are concerned, conditions recently developed along the coast where sea water is used for industrial purposes, particularly by fish canning factories, and where the effluent of that water, which is returned to the sea, is of such a quality that it has become essential for such conditions to be controlled by the State. In consultation with the Department of Industries, the S.A. Bureau of Standards, and other interested parties, it was decided that this control should fall under the Minister of Water Affairs, who is already responsible for exercising control over effluent arising from the use of fresh water for industrial purposes, and it is felt that the proposed control could be incorporated into the activities of an existing organization without much disruption. The intention is to exercise such control only where sea water is used on land and not where it is used at sea. It is anticipated that it will not be necessary to expand the organization of the Department of Water Affairs as a result of the proposed step, and that it will bring about only a slight increase in the activities of the Bureau of Standards.

Mr. Speaker, as far as clause 4 is concerned, the position is that prosecutions under section 23 of the Act in connection with the pollution of public water often fail, unfortunately, because of problems experienced in proving an offence. The amendments to the Act which are now being proposed and which are expected to facilitate matters were suggested by the Hon. Mr. Justice A. J. Milne.

Clause 5 of the Bill: In terms of the provisions of section 28 of the Act, Mr. Speaker, the State President may proclaim a subterranean water control area, as a result of which the Minister will be authorized to control the abstraction of underground water in such an area, only if the Minister is of the opinion that such area is a dolomite or artesian geological area or that the abstraction of underground water in that area may result in undue depletion of the resources.

However, Mr. Speaker, it is felt that when it is known that water supplies in a certain area will be required in the public interest in the future, and when surface supplies are not available or cannot be exploited or conveyed there economically, the State President must be able to declare such an area to be a subterranean water control area, even if the area is not situated in a dolomite or artesian geological area and even if the abstraction of underground water in that area may not for the present result in undue depletion of the resources, in order to enable the Minister to reserve the limited underground resources for future requirements in the public interest.

In clause 6, Mr. Speaker, it is being proposed that section 30 of the Act be amended so as to confer upon the Minister the same powers in respect of a subterranean water control area as those applicable in the case of a Government water control area, where the Minister is authorized in terms of section 62(4) and (5) to exercise control over the measurement and regulation of surface water. Accordingly, the additions to section 30 are worded in the same manner as subsections (4) and (5) of the said section 62 of the Act.

I explained in regard to clause 5 why the State President has to be able to declare certain areas to subterranean water control areas. In order to exercise effective control over the abstraction of the water in such an area, the proposed measures contained in this clause have to be made applicable.

Mr. Speaker, clause 7 embodies a number of amendments to the existing Act, but before dealing with the proposed amendments, I just want to mention that the entire Chapter IIIA has really been rewritten here. This has been done, Mr. Speaker to fill the gaps presently occurring in the Act after the repeal of the Weather Modification Control Act, 1972, which is referred to in clause 27 of the Bill, and in the process of rewriting the substitutions and amendments now being proposed in the Bill were incorporated at the same time, so that a more streamlined version of the old Chapter IIA was obtained. You will notice that as a result of the rewriting there has been a considerable reshuffling in the sequence of the existing sections of the chapter concerned, but in regard to the actual amendments proposed, Mr. Speaker, I point out the following:

The existence of two almost identically worded Acts regulating the same matter, viz. Chapter III A of the Water Act, 1956 (Act 54 of 1956), and the Weather Modification Control Act, 1972 (Act 78 of 1972), which are administered by the Minister of Water Affairs and the Minister of Transport respectively in consultation with each other, has given rise to problems in the enforcement of the respective Acts, and consequently it is being proposed in terms of clause 27 that the latter Act be repealed. The necessity for qualifying “Minister” in section 33A of the former Act consequently falls away, and the relevant provision is amended accordingly.

It has been found in practice that in exceptional situations the provisions of Chapter IIIA of the Act are sometimes impractical and that in other cases exemption from compliance with these provisions will not defeat the purpose of the said Chapter. Accordingly, provision is being made in the proposed amendment to section 33B for the Minister to grant exemption, under these circumstances, from compliance with any provision of the said chapter. The necessary amendment is being made to section 33F in order to enable the advisory committee to advise the Minister in this respect as well.

Since licences and permits in respect of the modification of precipitation are issued by the Minister of Water Affairs as well as the Minister of Transport in terms of the existing legislation, it is now necessary, in consequence of the repeal of the Weather Modification Control Act, as proposed in clause 27, to re-regulate these functions. The department of the Minister of Transport is considered to be better qualified to determine the technical knowledge and skill which a licence holder should possess, while my Department of Water Affairs is considered to be better able to lay down where and when modification of precipitation may be allowed. Consequently it is being proposed in terms of the amended sections 33C, 33D and 33E that licences be issued by the Minister of Water Affairs in consultation with the Minister of Transport and that permits be issued by the Minister of Water Affairs, while it is also felt that a mere warning that a modification of precipitation is going to be effected is not in the best interests of the public and that interested parties should be afforded the opportunity of objecting to such an intention. These remarks explain the intentions of clause 7 of the Bill.

Clauses 8 and 9, Mr. Speaker, provide for the following: In terms of section 55 (b) of the Act, the allowances which may be paid to members of water courts have to be prescribed by regulation, with the result that whenever it is necessary to revise the allowances, the regulations have to be amended, which is a cumbersome and time-consuming procedure. It is consequently being proposed that an addition be made to the Act to authorize the Minister of Water Affairs to determine such allowances in consultation with the Minister of Finance. The proposed amendment does not mean that control is being relaxed, since the Minister of Water Affairs still has to authorize these allowances in consultation with the Minister of Finance.

In regard to clause 20, Mr. Speaker, it is deemed necessary for the provisions of section 141 (3) of the Act to be applicable in relation to the acquisition of any servitude by the State, for the same reason the provisions of sections 142, 145(1), 145(c) and 151(2) are already applicable. All the provisions concerned, which are contained in the Chapter of the Act dealing with the acquisition of servitudes by private persons or bodies, are related to the acquisition of additional rights when a servitude is expropriated by the Minister for the State.

The amendments proposed in terms of clauses 11 and 18, Mr. Speaker, are necessary as a result of an amendment made to the Act in 1972, when section 60 was replaced by the relevant provisions of the Expropriation Act, 1965. Through an oversight, the consequential amendments were not made at the time.

Clause 12 of the Bill contains an amendment to section 63, because the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, under whose administration both the Land Tenure Board and the Agricultural Credit Board fall, requested that the section concerned be amended for reasons of efficacy to provide for recommendations in regard to the retention of water rights to be made by the Agricultural Credit Board instead of the Land Tenure Board. At the moment, the Land Tenure Board is more concerned with checking valuations for expropriation purposes, while the Agricultural Credit Board is considered to be the better body for making recommendations in regard to the retention of water rights.

Clause 13, Mr. Speaker, deals with a proposed amendment to section 66 of the Water Act. The way the Act reads at the moment, the Minister may assess rates and charges for water from a Government waterworks, but there are cases where the Minister’s assessment is limited by other old Acts or agreements. It then happens that the rates fixed by such an old agreement are quite unrealistic and do not keep pace at all with operating costs incurred when water is supplied today. The proposed amendment will now authorize the Minister to assess such rates and charges as he may deem fit, notwithstanding maximum tariffs laid down in other Acts or rights.

As far as clause 14 is concerned, this is an addition in consequence of an administrative impediment which was experienced when it was necessary to amend the existing regulations in connection with the appointment of advisory committees. The Government law advisers pointed out that the Act required separate regulations to be made in respect of every Government water control area. This is quite unnecessary, and it is being proposed that section 68 of the Act be amended to do away with this requirement. As regards the payment of allowances to those members of advisory committees who are not in the fulltime service of the State, a similar arrangement to that contained in clauses 8 and 9 is being proposed for the reasons already explained, namely that the allowances be determined by the Minister of Water Affairs in consultation with the Minister of Finance. This proposal is aimed at simplifying and facilitating the administrative procedure on those occasions when the allowances are being revised. The present procedure is so cumbersome that it causes great delays and even embarrassment.

Clause 15 is an addition which arises from a shortcoming in section 70 of the Act, a shortcoming pointed out by the Government law adviser. It lies in the fact that in section 68 provision is made for advisory committees to be instituted in respect of subterranean water control areas and catchment areas as well—which is desirable—while section 70 contains no provision for regulations to be made in such cases.

In terms of clause 16. an amendment is being proposed which is consequential upon the insertion of section 95A into the Act in 1969. Through an oversight, the consequential amendment to section 78 was overlooked at the time.

In clause 17 an amendment is being proposed to section 92 of the Act. Some irrigation boards have indicated that they often have to arrange for a bank overdraft as a result of the fact that rates are still outstanding after the due date. The boards are then obliged to pay current interest rates, which exceed the rate of 7% laid down in section 92 of the Act in respect of outstanding taxes. For this reason it is deemed necessary, in all fairness, to provide for a variable rate.

Clause 19 arises from the fact that the Secretary to Parliament has pointed out that in terms of the Standing Rules and Orders of Parliament, a Minister is unable to submit a petition to Parliament. However, it is in order for a Minister to table a report. This is the reason for the proposed amendment.

As far as clauses 20, 22 and 23 are concerned, it was not possible, in terms of the provisions of section 157 of the Act, as it existed up to 1972, to grant or to increase a loan or a subsidy in respect of a water work after the construction of such water work had already commenced. Nor was it possible to do so, in a case where the estimated cost exceeded R150 000, until specific provision had been made for it in the Budget. This meant that the construction of a major water work in respect of which a loan or subsidy had already been granted, and the estimated cost of which had inevitably increased through the process of obtaining tenders, had to be delayed, sometimes by up to 18 months, until such time as specific provision could be made in the Budget. In order to solve this difficulty, the sections concerned were amended by the General Law Amendment Act of 1972 to provide for a loan or a subsidy to be granted in spite of the fact that the construction of a water work in respect of which a loan or a subsidy has been granted has commenced or has been completed. For technical reasons it is now considered desirable for this amendment to be replaced, but without changing the effect of the legislation in any way.

In regard to clauses 21 and 24, the maximum amount of a subsidy which may at present be granted to any person or body, other than an irrigation board or a local authority, is determined by section 162(2)(c). Because of the effect of inflation it has been necessary from time to time to revise the maximum amount and to adjust it to changing circumstances, which required the Act to be amended every time. In order to facilitate the administration of the Act in this respect, it is now being proposed that the maximum referred to be determined by the Minister by way of regulation, which will greatly facilitate and expedite its periodic adjustment. Control over the granting of subsidies in terms of the said section is not being relaxed, since regulations have to be submitted for approval to the Treasury, in accordance with existing provisions, before being promulgated.

Clause 25 contains a proposed amendment to section 169 of the Act in order to prevent certain developments in flood danger zones. In March 1972 a precipitation of 178 millimetres, compared with an average annual precipitation of 200 to 250 millimetres, was experienced within the space of 16 hours in the catchment area of the Hardap Dam in the Fish River, South West Africa. This caused a flood with a peak of 6 100 cumecs. compared with previous recorded peak floods of 3 180 cumecs in 1908, 2 830 cumecs in 1922 and 1 530 cumecs in 1934. In spite of the judicious management of the Hardap Dam, as a result of which the peak flood was reduced from 6 100 to 3 700 cumecs, considerable flood damage was caused within the town of Mariental. The damage could have been avoided to a large extent if the municipality of Mariental had heeded repeated warnings by the Water Affairs Division of the Administration of South West Africa to the effect that extensions which had been made since 1956 were subject to flood damage. A further example which may be mentioned in this connection is the flood which occurred in the Vaal River recently and which caused great damage in Standerton, Vereenging and Parys. In order to prevent a repetition of incidents of this nature, the steps set out in clause 25 are being proposed.

Clause 26 merely involves the changing of the present long title of the Water Act, Mr. Speaker, in order to include the proposed amendments to the Act as contained in this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister has expressed his appreciation to the members who served on the Select Committee which revised the original Bill. On behalf of the members of the Select Committee I wish to express my thanks for his faith in the Select Committee system. I believe the House should take note of it and perhaps other hon. Ministers will follow his example in future and make more use of the Select Committee system. The hon. the Minister has dealt with this Bill, which we are supporting, in his introductory speech in great detail and he covered a wide range. This Bill is a wide-ranging Bill. I believe that there are six major points in this Bill which are of importance to the public.

Firstly there is the control of the size of dams on a single farming unit. Dams are limited to 100 morgen feet, but subject to a permit which may be issued by the hon. the Minister the dams may be enlarged. This is an important factor in the conservation of our water.

Secondly there is the introduction of seawater into the Act and there is an endeavour to define the pollution of water more clearly. This is a great step forward.

Thirdly, it establishes more clearly the proclamation and control of subterranean water-controlled areas.

Fourthly, the provisions relating to weather modification have been streamlined and brought under the purview of one Act as a result of the amendments to Chapter IIIA and the repealing of certain other Acts which caused confusion. This is a great step forward in the field of weather modification.

Fifthly, and I believe this is very important to the farmers of this country, the subsidy system has been brought up to date in relation to the world inflation which we are experiencing at the moment. I believe that this is absolutely necessary and it will be widely welcomed by the farming community. Sixthly, and an extremely important one, the control of town planning in areas likely to be flooded and compulsion on the part of the planner to insert a flood line in his proposed plan. In this way one would obviate difficulties in the future. A buyer who buys a plot below the flood line shown on a development plan, will know and be aware of the fact that his property may be inundated by floods. I wish to make one suggestion which has come to my notice since the Select Committee completed its work, a suggestion in regard to the pollution of water. We always have great difficulty in establishing who is responsible for the pollution of a public stream or who is responsible for discharging effluent into the sea or into a public stream. This is why we have revised clauses 2, 3 and 4. Under clause 6 the Minister has certain powers, namely to give notice in writing to somebody in a subterranean water-control area, to make alteration to his water works in order to bring them up to the standards specified by the Minister and the department. I feel that, perhaps, something along these lines could be done in regard to factories and mining operations that may possibly be expected to cause effluent being discharged. I believe that overseas there are things called automatic samplers freely available. I believe that some of these are at present being used in South Africa by ecologically-minded industrialists. I am just wondering whether the Minister some time in the future could consider the possibility of introducing legislation similar to that in clause 6 in relation to the control of pollution by factories and mines. He could legislate to say that after having given the people concerned notice in writing, they must install a water sampler so that we could know at all times precisely what is going on with regard to their discharge of waste. If they do not install this sampler, it could then be done by the department and the cost reclaimed from them. In this way I think we would take a giant step forward in the control of pollution. Unfortunately we could not discuss this matter in the Select Committee because this information came to hand after the Select Committee had completed its work. I make this suggestion now, and want to stress once again that we regard this as a very important Act. It is particularly necessary for us that our Water Act should be a good Act because pure and clear water is more precious to this country and its people than all the gold of the Witwatersrand and the diamonds of Kimberley.

Mr. Speaker, we on these benches will give our support to this Bill. It is good legislation and covers aspects of water control which thus far have been neglected. In particular, the clauses relating to the control of the pollution of sea water are very welcome indeed. I believe we still have quite a long way to go in terms of legislation to prevent sea water pollution, but this is a positive step in the right direction. The clause providing for the control of the extraction of public water by means of water works, e.g. the building of dams, is a good and necessary clause. The control over subterranean water is also very timeous indeed. We are all well aware of the danger of falling water tables in many areas and the depletion of our underground water resources. The escalating costs of dams makes necessary the clause concerning increased subsidies which could be made to assist farmers. This is a welcome and realistic move. During the deliberations of the Select Committee considerable worry was expressed concerning clause 25. Reservations were expressed on two aspects of it. This clause concerns the unrestricted building of townships which could be flooded. Firstly, there was concern that the already drawn-out process of proclaiming townships would even be extended to an unreasonable degree. This is possible, but I believe that the clause in its present form will cut this to a minimum. There is no doubt at all in my mind that the public must be protected when it comes to the purchase of land in areas likely to be inundated by flood water. The other area of concern in this clause was the form of control through local authorities. I think the present amended wording of the clause covers operating procedures for township developers in the most satisfactory way possible.

All in all, this is a very good Bill indeed and we on these benches give it our unqualified support.

Mr. Speaker, as has been said, we appreciate the co-operation we have had from everybody. This is actually an outcome of the Select Committee which considered this legislation. With regard to the one remark which the hon. member for Albany made here, I just want to say that the hon. member is not very well informed on the method of control of the effluent of industries. I want to tell the hon. member that it is not necessary to change the Act. At present the department is being required to do two things when, it comes to industrial water. In the first instance an industry may not use water unless it is used in terms of a permit. We therefore have to issue such a permit. There also is the very important second permit, the one in terms of clause 22, which provides that the effluent of an industry has to be disposed of somehow. In order to do that an industry also has to have a permit which states precisely what should be done with it. It may, for example, discharge the water into the effluent system of the municipality. The permit tells the industry what should be done with it and of what quality it should be. It is not necessary to amend the legislation, for the permit itself states that it has to comply with certain standards. These standards are laid down in co-operation with the Bureau of Standards. It is, in other words, a provision which tells the industry precisely what standards it has to comply with. Now I want to tell the hon. member that we are keeping an eye on thousands of these factories and are allowing them to discharge their effluent under permit. The conditions which are laid down, are very strict. To tell the truth, the conditions spell out so well what has to happen that we do not even hesitate to delay the progress of such factories in certain cases—as has already happened—until such time as we are certain that they are able to comply with these conditions. It is, therefore, not necessary to amend the legislation, for what is required is already being done by regulation. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that the system of samples which are taken every day has been devised very carefully, is toeing applied thoroughly, and works very well indeed in practice. The Bureau of Standards as well as the Hydrological Institute of the department are continuously revising and keeping an eye on standards. The hon. member will know that the Section Industrial Water of the department is attending to this. A great number of scientists are involved in this, and they do nothing tout keep an eye on the major industrial areas of South Africa and determine what type of effluent is discharged. The hon. member also knows that a great deal of the research which is being done today toy the commission, as well as the department and other bodies, is in fact to draw up the necessary provisions and to enable the Department of Water Affairs to keep an eye on the position. Therefore, as regards the concern of the hon. member, I want to tell him that he might not have as much reason to feel concerned as he thinks. I am perfectly satisfied that not only is the control we have in South Africa in the best interests of the public, but also that the standards we have are far higher than that of most countries in the world. If the hon. member will now accept this from me, I want to tell him that if it is a subject in which he is interested— it is constantly being discussed—it will perhaps be worth his while to have an urgent discussion with the department about it some time, and to find out precisely what is toeing done in this regard. I think he will be pleasantly surprised.

I thank the hon. members for their support.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Committee Stage taken without debate.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Chairman, when this debate was adjourned on Wednesday night, I had quoted statistics which indicated very clearly that South Africa was falling behind in meeting its timber requirements and that within the next 15 years we would toe faced with a very severe timber shortage. We are not planting trees fast enough to meet the demand, and I am sure that the hon. the Minister is very well aware of this. The big question now becomes: How can we encourage potential growers to plant trees?

The Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure has done something in this connection with its 5% loan scheme. The encouragement of forest growing by the granting of low-cost loans is imperative, but it is obvious that this is not the total answer. I believe that the present shortfall is so serious that it is up to the Government to take further steps. I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he should consider giving some sort of tax relief to timber growers. I think I am correct in saying that in the United States of America a company growing timber only pays something like 50% of the normal company tax and that commensurate relief is also given to individual growers.

Planting trees is a long-term investment. Depending on the variety of trees, a forest takes anything between 10 and 30 years to grow to maturity, and such a long period is not particularly attractive to capital in these days of high interest rates. I should therefore like to urge the hon. the Minister to give attention to the matter of further incentives. I believe that it is very important indeed. The savings on foreign exchange that could be brought about, alone would make it well worthwhile to give this sort of tax relief. If we were ever to reach the target of an additional 50 000 hectares being put under trees every year, something will have to be done very urgently indeed.

The other matter which I want to raise very briefly with the hon. the Minister, concerns the question of nature conservation in forest areas. At the end of March 1974 the department had something like 1,5 million hectares of State forests under its control. These areas are probably one of the greatest repositories of wild life to us in South Africa, apart from our national parks. Obviously the whole approach to the conservation of wild life in these areas is very important. I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister what is being done about this conservation. I read in the department’s report of troubles being experienced with buck-browsing in newly established Acacia melanoxylon or Blackwood plantations. I also read of damage being caused by baboons, monkeys, bush-pigs, cane rats and other rodents …

And Progs!

All of these are regarded as problem animals—no, not Progs as the hon. member over there says. We are no problem animals. I see that the department is aware of the wild life that it controls in that, for example, counts have been made of the number of klip-springer and grey Rhebuck in the Cape region. But I am nevertheless still very concerned about what is being done. Is there adequate staff with special responsibility for this in the department to assist it in its task of game preservation? I should like to ask the hon. the Minister just how seriously he takes this matter. If one looks, for example, at the Knysna elephant situation, it is a prime example of the wild life that does exist in our forest areas. In some other cases, species which are in danger, or are rare, are still found in these areas—for example, the leopard population of the Knvsna forest areas. These must be conserved, but does the department have the trained staff necessary to give the matter the attention it deserves? Is the whole matter of nature conservation regarded as a very important one by the department? I hope the hon. the Minister will throw some light on his attitude in this regard.

All in all, Mr. Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister and the department on the quality of the annual report, which I think is first class. If several other departments would take a leaf out of the Department of Forestry’s book, I think it would be a first-class idea. It is a very, very good report.

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to follow the arguments of the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. He advocated tax concessions. I want to go along with that, although I want to point out that a plantation formula already exists in terms of which some kind of concession is granted to growers. In this present Budget, there are also measures in terms of which the owners of the farms to be included in the homelands for the Swazi, are given further relief. However, I agree that it is a matter which has merit, and now I am not speaking only of tax concessions in the case of income tax. An aspect which perhaps has merit as well, is the idea of estate duty concessions, on the death of persons, where the total value of a plantation is realized and converted into capital.

I think it is generally accepted that a considerable acceleration in the rate of planting is necessary, if we want to achieve what we envisage. There are encouraging aspects in this connection, for example the recently increased prices of different types of timber. Recently increases were granted in respect of firewood, pine saw timber, mine timber and pine pulp. The bark position is exceptionally favourable at the moment. The Japanese contract has now become a reality, which holds great advantages. The loans at 5% and the simpler procedure which is to be followed in this connection, provide a great deal of relief, in my opinion. I want to allege that things are going better with the timber industry at the moment than has probably ever been the case in its history in this country. It is also clear that the decline in production has been stopped. However, I agree that if we are going to achieve what we are setting out to do, where we want to provide 50 000 ha per year and supply three times the quantity until the end of the century, we are going to have to try to remove the bottle-necks which exist today. Therefore, I want to allege that, in a long-term undertaking such as forestry, there are two factors which are of cardinal importance. The one is planning in an objective and scientific way, and the second is that there should be dear objectives which should be pursued, regard being had to the fact that we are dealing here with a programme extending over a period of 20 or 30 years. In this connection there is one special and cardinal aspect if we are going to expand satisfactorily, and that is the basic idea of satisfactory timber prices. It is necessary that the price should be realistic for the grower as well as for the processor. It is necessary that it should ensure a fair and competitive return to the investor who is prepared to invest his money over that long period. It is true that the market price of timber is also determined by the normal economic law of supply and demand, with this difference, however, that the sale of timber takes place at the end of the procedure and not at the point of delivery. This brings about that what the grower receives, what the farmer receives, is calculated after provision has been made by the consumer and processor for all his costs. It is overhead costs, administrative costs and profits, and that which is residual, which remains, is in fact all the grower receives. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that this gives rise to some dissatisfaction among growers and in the industry, because, in the first place, it has no connection with production costs. In the second place, it has no connection with capital investment, an investment which is ploughed in for a period of 10, 20 or 30 years. It also involves a tremendous interest burden. It has no connection with the erosion of the value of money; nor does it have any connection with the escalation of the value of land as has happened in recent times. Therefore I say that it should be taken into consideration. In reality it is a very complicated procedure in this case to measure production costs in real terms. In this connection, I also see the Forestry Council fulfilling a very important function. It has at its disposal the skilled and professional people, entrepreneurs who are able to exercise satisfactory control over the position. They do outstanding work. I see the task of the Forestry Council as a three-fold one: In the first place, to calculate the price of roundwood and to submit it to the hon. the Minister; in the second place—and this is important —to find a method for the adjustment of prices, so as to keep abreast of changing circumstances in the light of what I have already said and to get the calculated prices accepted on a voluntary basis by all the sections who are involved. In this connection, I accept that it should take place on a voluntary basis. I do not believe that control and a control board are suitable in this connection, especially in the market into which we are moving at the moment, where the demand is going to be very great.

I want to raise one very important aspect which is a bottleneck as far as the industry is concerned and in respect of which they are in the dark to a large extent. When one has regard to the fact that the Department of Forestry is the largest single grower of timber in this country, when we have regard to the fact that the department controls plantations to the extent of a quarter million ha which produce 2 million cubic metres of timber per year at a price equivalent to an amount of about R11 million, the important question is this: The department is a very important partner in this whole set-up, and I want to ask what consultation there is with the private sector in the determination of prices. I want to ask what liaison is there with the Forestry Council, which is doing such a fine job of work? I understand that this council has appointed a subcommittee to carry out this very task. I want to ask whether there is a formula in terms of which the fixing of prices of the department takes place, and, if so, what such a price formula embraces. I want to say that the department should not fix its prices in isolation, but that it should take place in consultation with and in co-operation with the private sector in which a great deal of money has been invested. As far as production costs and profit margins are concerned, the approach of the department is, in fact, of a completely different nature from that of the private sector. Therefore, I think that I should like to see us gaining, since the industry regards this as a bottleneck, since they allege that as far as these aspects are concerned, they are in the dark to some extent, some more clarity in this connection from the department. I want to accept that there has already been a tremendous improvement in this connection since the establishment of the Forestry Council and with the consultation which we do have. I know, however, that this remains a bottleneck in the industry, and for that reason I put these questions to the hon. the Minister.

In conclusion, I want to associate myself with all the other bodies, including the industry, in an expression of gratitude to the hon. the Minister for his dynamic help and guidance in this connection. I should like to quote from the report of the South African Timber Growers’ Association in which the following is said, in their minutes (translation)—

Sir, we owe them a large debt of gratitude for that sound guidance. As the hon. the Minister is about to depart for America and South America, we should like to wish him everything of the very best and express the hope that this visit of his will eventually result in many good things for the industry.

Sir, I should very much like to associate myself with the hon. member for Ermelo in wishing the hon. the Minister and the members of staff who will accompany him on this journey well. Sir, here we have a department which was known as a stepchild until quite recently, but which has expanded rapidly in recent years. It is a department which has not only expanded rapidly, but which also fulfils a real need among our people. We are gaining the impression, to an ever-increasing extent, of the necessity of adequate supplies of the different types of timber which are used by the people of the Republic of South Africa. I say that this department has made excellent progress and has a record of fine achievements. Today it is known as one of our prestige departments. This department showed us during 1973-’74 what can be achieved on the basis of a planned campaign. I am referring to the campaign Our Green Heritage. Today the outcome of that campaign is becoming more and more evident. By means of that campaign people were not only made aware of the necessity of afforestation and of the conservation of existing forests, but we also notice that the surface area under afforestation has increased rapidly. I am referring to the more than 8 million saplings issued at departmental nurseries, and to the 200 000 saplings requested and obtained by different schools to make school grounds more attractive, but I am also referring especially to the educational value of this campaign, which made people, especially the younger generation, aware once again of the necessity of afforestation and which cultivated an appreciation of our forests among them. Sir, I think here too of the result which our Green Heritage campaign had of certain mountain catchment areas being proclaimed wilderness areas. The success of the attempt in this connection is difficult to gauge, because we are dealing here with a long-term campaign, a long-term education task, through which a new appreciation of nature has been cultivated. With the proclamation of these wilderness areas, a new sense of responsibility has also been encouraged among our people in respect of the combating of mountain fires or forest fires. It is noticeable that with the proclamation of these wilderness areas, our people have become all the more aware of the necessity for each person to see it as his task to try to prevent forest fires. Sir, it is not only in this field that the department has gained exceptional achievements, but I also want to mention here its exceptional achievement in the reclamation of certain areas which were threatened by driftsand. We know that the problem of driftsand assumed alarming proportions in recent years. Nevertheless, we gained the impression that nothing was being done about the driftsand threat. Now, however, it has become conspicuous that drastic attempts were made in recent years to curb the expansion of the driftsand threat, and now I am able to state it as an exceptional achievement of the department that 11000 ha has been reclaimed in this connection. We want to congratulate the department sincerely on this excellent attempt of converting an unsightly area into an area where plants can grow again. I also want to refer here to the exceptional attempts which have been made in respect of research especially research in connection with the use of waste timber. We know that it is the custom among our people, and also at our forestry plantations, to burn waste timber. Now, however we have come so far through research that even waste timber is put to outstanding use. I am thinking here of the research which resulted in waste timber being processed and being made available as building material. I only want to express the hope that the export of waste timber will be limited or will be stopped altogether in the near future. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to impose restrictions on the practice of exporting waste timber, and perhaps to stop it completely, because waste timber has become of special importance in the Republic. It is true that this department has achieved excellent results through research, and it strikes me that the Department of Forestry is not only keen to extend its knowledge, but is also prepared to share that knowledge with other countries. In this connection, I refer to a congress which was held during 1973-’74, a congress under section 5 of the International Union for Forestry Research Organization, which was held in the Republic of South Africa for the first time in history. On that occasion, invitations were addressed by the Republic to 23 countries who sent a total number of 123 delegates to this country. Now I can imagine delegates to that congress, a world congress which was held in the Republic of South Africa for the first time, being really impressed not only by what they learnt here from the 140 papers which were delivered on that occasion, but also by what they saw here, because that congress was held in Cape Town as well as in Pretoria. It struck me that delegates and their wives were taken on sightseeing tours by the department.

I want to refer again to the proclamation of certain catchment areas as wilderness areas. I find that three such areas in the Republic have been proclaimed, two in the Natal Drakensberg and one in the Western Cape. However, it strikes me that the Eastern Cape has no such wilderness areas. I am particularly struck by the poverty of the Eastern Cape as far as wilderness areas are concerned. Even as far as nature reserves are concerned, we in the Eastern Cape are extremely poor. Sir, I am thinking of the slopes of the Suurberg, where we have large yellow-wood forests and where a species of buck, the bushbuck, which is becoming more and more rare, is also found, as well as a rich variety of indigenous species of birds. I want to advocate here this morning that the hon. the Minister should think of using those slopes as well, at the already existing mountain catchment area of the Suurberg, by enlarging the indigenous forest by further purchases, and opening it as a wilderness area for the people of the Eastern Cape, especially those who live to the north of Port Elizabeth. I believe that a wonderful future is awaiting this department which has already gained such a wonderful record of achievements, and which has already created so much from virtually nothing, especially because it constantly evokes a love of nature among our people. I think of the wilderness areas which not only have an element of conservation and an aesthetic element, but also offer relaxation for body and soul to many of our people.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Somerset East will forgive me if I do not follow his argument as I wish to speak about my own constituency.

†There is a very large factory on the South Coast which produces cellulose and other materials, such as rayon. I am sure that this factory is known to the hon. the Minister. It is one of the biggest exporters of finished goods in South Africa. It claims to be the second largest earner of foreign exchange of all the manufacturing industries in South Africa. This factory uses only local raw materials and exports its entire production. This factory is, however, faced with problems. One problem is the shortage of woodpulp. There is not sufficient woodpulp to keep this factory in full production and to allow it to expand in the way it has been expanding. In the 20 years since 1955, when this factory started its operations, it has grown sevenfold in size, which is a phenomenal growth rate. In other words, its output is seven times larger than it was at the end of its first cycle of three years. The problem is that there are no new sources of raw material, a situation about which it is very perturbed. The factory is buying up all the hard wood and soft wood in Natal which it can possibly get. It also gets wood from the Northern Transkei and the Eastern Free State, but it is not getting sufficient raw materials. It also has other problems, but these do not concern this hon. Minister—problems such as the shortage of coal and the apparent inability of the Railways to handle the timber. The shortage which is experienced at this factory makes one think about the wattle contract to which the hon. the Minister referred on Wednesday. The timber industry seems to view this contract with a great deal of self-congratulation. In all honesty, the hon. the Minister did say that there might be thoughts in the next two or three years that the price which was negotiated was not such a wonderful one after all because of the escalation of the cost of timber and the difficulty in buying timber. It must be assumed that it will be impossible for this factory to go on with their production and increasing their production if they had to rely on imported raw materials. The raw material must therefore be local goods, otherwise they cannot compete. One wonders if it is such a wise thing to go into long-term contracts with regard to our raw materials such as has been done. However, this has nothing to do with this debate. I am not blaming the hon. the Minister for this contract. I think that it was a wonderful piece of work which was done at a time when the timber industry was faced with the problem of where to find overseas markets. I believe it was wonderful to negotiate the contract, but it has tied up the wattle timber industry for another ten years because they will not be able to supply much else than the Japanese contract. One wonders whether the wattle bark industry will not be subsidizing the wattle timber industry because of the escalating prices. One is now faced with the problem of where to find more raw materials for this expanding industry. According to the calculations of this department it is shown that by the turn of this century we shall be producing less than half of our own requirements. According to the Report, South Africa will be requiring 31,4 million cubic metres of timber per year by the year 2000 while we shall only be producing 13,5 million cubic metres of timber per year, which is less than half our requirements. I know the Government through the department has done wonders with encouraging the plant in of timber. Farmers, particularly small farmers, who have suitable land are being encouraged to use all land that they do not require for other purposes and to put it under timber. The department has done a great deal to campaign in this respect. The granting of loans at an interest rate of 5% is a great step forward, because it makes money more freely available to farmers at a low rate of interest. The long-term measures taken are also a great step forward. For all this we are very grateful. Of course, we are also grateful to the department for what it is doing itself in afforestating new lands and through planting forests all the time. But we are not able to catch up. By the department’s own admission, according to its Report, we are falling further behind each year. One wonders what is going to happen to all these wonderful forest lands which have just been handed over to the Homelands. According to table 2:1 on page 106 of the Report of the department we had over 51 000 ha of land two years ago. Now this area has shrunk to only 1 712 ha. The rest has been excised. One wonders what is going to happen to that 50 000 ha of good forest land. It is in this respect that I would like to ask the Minister for some clarification.

*I have the greatest respect for the hon. the Minister and for his dedication to his task, as well as for his integrity, and I wish I could say the same about some of his colleagues. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to kindly furnish a few replies in this regard.

†The hon. the Minister did not answer the hon. member for East London North fully on Wednesday on this very matter. I am referring to the attitude of the department to the homelands regarding water, including catchment areas, and afforestation. The hon. the Minister said that encouragement was being given to these people. I know that KwaZulu and the Transkei have done very little in this respect. Up till a short while ago, the authorities in KwaZulu considered forests as something to be preserved purely for conservation or for environmental purposes, e.g. to encourage tourism. It is only lately that their agricultural officers are trying to persuade the Zulu farmers to plant trees. Although the planting of trees results in a wonderful cash return, it is a long-term process because it takes anything from eight or 10 to 20 years for the money to come back. These Black farmers are not interested in such long-term returns and rather go for short-term crops. We know that in the Transkei very little has been done beyond replanting trees where trees have been felled. The hon. the Minister tells us that they are going to try to encourage these people to carry on with afforestation, but I would like to hear something more positive than this. Can the hon. the Minister tell us, for example, if there is going to be continued maintenance of those forest areas which have been taken over by the Bantu homelands? Are they continuing maintaining them at the same standards as our Department of Forestry has maintained them and are maintaining them? The second question I would like to ask is what steps are being taken to ensure that there will be continued expansion of these forests in the same way as we are planting forests? There are very good forestry lands in these Bantu homelands. There is no doubt that some of our best forestry lands now fall within KwaZulu and the Transkei. I am referring to the mist belt and the mountainous regions of the eastern coastal areas. This is the best forestry land in South Africa. The third question on which I would like a reply from the hon. the Minister is whether we are assured of a continued supply of timber from these forests. Are we sure that this raw material will in the future come back to us or—and this is a thing that worries us all—is somebody else going to step in and grab these forests and their products? Because the whole world is short of timber. If that happens, we shall not reap the benefit of all the work, know-how and assistance we have given these people to keep these forests going.

Mr. Chairman, in a recent article—it was an attractively illustrated article—we read about the restoration of our largest monument—Table Mountain. The Table Mountain Conservation Board is planning the restoration of the ecology of that mountain as a whole. It is a great undertaking which certainly arouses the interest of all of us. In this great attempt, however, the view is held, inter alia, that all non-indigenous trees and bushes should be removed. We can understand that the people want to restore what has been lost, because there is a variety of unique flowers in the Cape Peninsula. There is a variety of about 2 565 kinds here—more than the total of all the British Islands together. As regards the removal of all non-indigenous trees, we should also think of how the stately oak tree, which is typical of Stellenbosch, and also of other places in the shadow of this mountain, came to this country together with our founder, Jan van Riebeeck, and is just as much a part of the country as Western civilization is. Together with the oak tree, we can also mention the vineyard, or rather, the vine. Surely we cannot want to remove the vine because it is a non-indigenous element. The hon. member for Worcester will certainly hold that against us.

He will murder you!

We also have plantations with pine and blue gum trees, which are particularly important because they provide us with timber. We can surely feel at liberty to say that if it had not been for the non-indigenous trees which provided us with timber, our own forests would have been completely destroyed years ago or would not have been able to have met our needs. In addition to this, there is the fact that our natural trees, such as yellow-wood and stinkwood, simply do not grow in places other than their natural habitat.

Other members spoke about sources of timber, but I should like to exchange a few words about the nature conservation function of the department. From the Loan Vote we notice that an amount of about R18 million is being voted under this Vote. That is divided amongst our forestry regions and districts. We also see in the Budget how much of these funds are voted for the establishment and management of plantations and how little thereof is voted for indigenous forests, catchment areas and for driftsand reclamation. It is only about 10% of the amount of R18 million, which comes to R2 million. We know that the department is engaged in ambitious planning in respect of the opening of nature and wilderness areas to our public. However, this requires special funds. The hon. members will understand that the Department of Forestry cannot merely throw the gates open to the public. Therefore, the department has to make provision for receiving the public. There must be the necessary supervision, there must be the necessary facilities for the use of the public which also take the safety aspect of the public into account, there must be camping sites, picnic sites, washing facilities, toilet facilities and there must be footpath facilities. In this connection, and in respect of the function and task of the Table Mountain Conservation Board we can just mention that the injudicious use of footpaths on the mountain slopes, has already caused erosion which has become virtually uncontrollable. In connection with the hiking ways, we just want to inquire from our hon. the Minister what progress has been made with the long-distance hiking way. We are grateful that, an amount of R250 000 is being voted for this purpose this year, whereas R100 000 was voted in previous years. It will bring our public, especially our children, back to nature where they would very much like to be.

I want to express a last thought in connection with the conservation function. In those areas with a high rainfall, erosion occurs on a reasonably large scale in the soft parts. We want to ask whether planning cannot take place between the Departments of Agricultural Technical Services and Forestry, so that trees may be planted timeously in certain areas on inclined slopes suitable for afforestation in order to prevent erosion. I can give the assurance that in some parts of the Eastern Transvaal, there are dongas caused by erosion which are more than a 100 years old. Over this period, attempts to curb such erosion have been made without much success. Some of those dongas are probably more than 100 metres deep. Will it not be possible, by timeous afforestation of particular species, to prevent erosion?

Mr. Chairman, I am not a forester nor do I farm with timber. As the hon. member who has just resumed his seat said, the vine from which we made hardtack in the Boland is surely of more importance. Nevertheless, I am glad that I, too, can say a few words under this Vote.

In the Boland we do not have many sources of wealth. We cannot compete with the North when it comes to wealth. We do at least have the beauty of the Boland mountains, of which we are very proud. The mountains of the Boland inspired our poets and composers. The mountains are a paradise for the botanist, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Standerton. The mountains of the Boland offer our people recreational facilities. As a result of the policy of the department, our people have recently been invited in different ways to make use of these beautiful mountains and to go and relax there. The mountains are a refuge from the tar and concrete jungles of our cities. The mountains offer our youth the opportunity to find themselves. Consequently we find that movements such as the Voortrekkers and the Scouts make abundant use of our mountains. Our mountains in the Boland are within easy reach because of an excellent road network. The mountains are an asset for the public, in that they can use our mountains for recreation.

The mountains are also the sponges of the Boland. For that reason our water supply is dependent on the sound preservation of our mountains. There are certain parts of our mountains which are used for commercial timber growing. The vine has a habit of growing crookedly and therefore we must have straight poles to guide the vines upwards. We are dependent on our forests for creosote poles and certain parts of our mountains can be put to good use for growing trees which can be processed into creosote poles.

We love our mountains and we are glad that when the control of our mountain areas was transferred to the Department of Forestry in 1970, active steps were taken to preserve our mountain areas. Firefighting committees were established and I think it is fitting that we pay tribute to the members of these committees who have voluntarily, without compensation, rendered very good services to the department. However, these fire-fighting committees have problems. They are enthusiastic and want our mountains to be preserved properly, but they have problems. It is necessary that we also call in the help of our communications media, the Press, radio, the film industry and other interested parties to be of assistance to these committees in the solution of their problems. I shall return to this shortly.

One of the important problems facing these committees is the shortage of manpower. I can remember, in the years when I was at university, that the Forestry Department of the university was a very small department. Very few students entered that faculty at the time. It seems to me as if we shall have to make a special effort to recruit young men to qualify themselves in that direction, as foresters, for example. Today we have the situation that it takes a forestry official, who is appointed for a certain area, a long time before he knows the mountain, because that area is usually a vast one and not easily accessible. As soon as the forestry official knows the mountains and co-operates well with his fire-fighting committee, it may happen, for various reasons, that he is transferred on promotion. Then a new man is appointed in the area concerned and the whole process starts from the beginning. If we can recruit more men for the department, it will help a great deal. Furthermore, these fire-fighting committees also experience the problem at times that, while they have to protect an entire area, the entire area does not belong to the State. The Boland mountains belong mostly to private people. Now such a team works on State-owned land and, for example, eradicates hakea on that land. Then it happens that a small corner or strip is on private land. In that case negotiations must first be conducted with the owner of that land, and the owner must actually take responsibility for the eradication of hakea in respect of his own piece of land. Perhaps it will be desirable for permission to be granted to work teams of the department to clean small pieces of private land if it is in the way of firebelts, etc.

We also have a particular problem with fires. If one reads the annual report of the department, one sees that in the Drakenstein Forest district in the Western Cape, three plantation fires broke out, affecting 11 ha. That was during the period from 1 April 1973 to the end of March 1974. Fortunately little damage was caused. However, let me quote from paragraph 3.5.10 on page 33 of the report—

The committee tells us that in 1973-’74 there were actually only three fires which started in the veld, while 12 fires started in road reserves. The Act contains the necessary provision for obliging road administrations to clean out firebelts and I just think that we should take a strong line with these road authorities, and perhaps with the Railway authorities as well—I also read that in the area around Elgin many fires started near the railway line—because otherwise our beautiful mountains will burn down. But the greatest problem with which our fire-fighting committees are faced is the public. We should like to have the public in our mountains, we welcome their interest but they give us problems. You know, to enter a forest reserve, one must have a permit. However, the public is totally ignorant. Many of them stop along the road on a Sunday afternoon and start climbing a mountain. There is no proper control over them. They are not even aware of the fact that they should have permits. The pollution of our Boland mountains is much more serious than hon.members may think. The mountain streams are also polluted, and I have already said that these are sponges from which we must get our water. I have also indicated that many of our mountain streams have already been polluted to such an extent that they are becoming dangerous for man. If one had to offer solutions, one could say that there should be much stricter control. The problem is how to obtain it. There are some areas which cannot accommodate many visitors. There are some pars which soon become over-exposed. The hon. member for Standerton referred to Table Mountain just now. When the sun is shining brightly, one need only look out from the top offices of this building to see how Table Mountain is being defaced by footpaths. Mountain climbers will tell you that where there was only a footpath two years ago, there is a donga now which comes to one’s waist. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is seldom that I can agree entirely with the ideas expressed by the hon. member for Malmesbury. However, on this occasion I really believe that he has expressed the views of all those who live in the Western Province and particularly those of us who have such a deep love for Table Mountain, most admirably.

As the guardian of the indigenous forests and the mountain catchment areas of South Africa, the Department of Forestry has a very difficult task to perform, and we are very grateful for the work it is doing in this connection. If it may be said that the Transvaal industrial triangle is the pulsating, economic heart of industrial South Africa, I believe it may also be said that our forest and catchment areas are the repository of the soul of South Africa. This makes the Department of Forestry our trustee and that of those who follow us, for all time of this soul of our country. I believe that not only the hon. the Minister of Forestry has a soul; all members who serve under him have a soul, which becomes more apparent when one studies the report and commentary on our National Scenic hiking trials. This is more true of this department than it is of most other hon. Ministers and their departments. In this connection I would like to quote from an outstanding pamphlet that has been produced in introducing the Fanie Botha hiking trial in the Eastern Transvaal. This is pamphlet No. 47. It typifies what these men who love the forests and the trees of South Africa really feel in their hearts and souls, They quote the poem “Trees” by Joyce Kilmer—

And finally—

I believe that it is in this spirit that this debate is being conducted today and I too want to add ny words of congratulation on the quality and calibre of the annual report for 1973-’74 which reached us recently.

It is clear that the year 1973-’74 was a vintage year for forestry. Not only did we have our Green Heritage celebrations, not only did we see the opening of the three wilderness trails—one in the Cape in the Cedarberg Mountains and two in Natal— and the idea and inception of national hiking trails, but also we saw the demand for timber in all its forms and all its usages reach possibly the highest figures ever. It is against this background that I think we must realize that when we discuss our forest heritage it is no subject for political debate. I believe that this has been the tenor of the speeches that have been made across the floor of this House today.

I want to raise two particular matters, firstly, in regard to the availability of recreational services to members of the public and secondly, in regard to some practical industrial and commercial problems that have been experienced in connection with forestry. I refer in essence to the comment made by the Minister himself when he said—

Unfortunately, because of the public’s tremendously enthusiastic reception of this development, we begin to notice already, as is stated in the report, that the facilities are being over-extended and that there will have to be a restriction or contraction in usage. My plea, Sir, is that the Minister and his department should take a second look at all our natural forest areas and that they should develop at the greatest possible speed more and more recreation areas of the type that can be made available to men and women from our cities, It would be a tragedy if only the privileged few were able to have access to these wonderful vantage points.

Then, Sir, I want to ask the hon. the Minister if he will allow his department to continue their close co-operation with the members of the Mountain Club of South Africa, a club whose history is a proud one in our country and whose members have contributed largely to rescue work that has been undertaken, and also with the Ski Club of South Africa. The members of these clubs have never confined themselves to trails as such. The members of these clubs are the eagles amongst men and women. They climb to far greater heights and, with the co-operation of private owners and the Forestry Department, seek to reach our mountain tops, and one hopes that they will never be restricted only to the close confines of the trails themselves. The Department of Forestry has allowed members of these clubs by permit to traverse hitherto unexploited areas.

What is your request?

My request is that the present spirit of cooperation between the department and these clubs be allowed to continue and that the restrictions which have been introduced in respect of hiking trails will not apply to mountaineers as such. Then, Sir. I have another request to put to the hon. the Minister. Notwithstanding the fact that he has been the architect of these trials and that he has been honoured, quite rightly, by having the first trail in the Eastern Transvaal named after him, I want to suggest that in future, where possible, the national hiking trails be given names which are indicative of the areas through which they pass.

I now want to come to a practical problem. I refer to the 1975 timber year in which the demand for timber for building purposes has fallen off considerably and growers are suffering from falling prices and inability to dispose of their products. One of their problems is the fact that possibly we have excessive imports, and I would appeal to the Minister to ensure, in collaboration with the Minister of Economic Affairs, that our own natural resources of timber are used first before excessive imports are allowed to have a deflating effect on prices generally. Sir, I am given to understand that the biggest culprit is the Department of Railways and Harbours, which imports without any of the import restrictions which govern private enterprise. I understand that they are importing considerable volumes of timber which could be made available to them from sources within this country. I refer more especially to the grading of timber by the South African Bureau of Standards, who are doing a wonderful job in protecting the public as far as quality is concerned. I understand that our Cape pine grows far more slowly than its Northern Transvaal counter-species, but when it comes to sawn timber the physical grading of the Cape and the Northern Transvaal timber by the Bureau of Standards is similar; in other words, a length of timber grown in the Cape is examined visually and given the same grading as a length of timber grown in the Northern Transvaal, whereas actually the more slow-growing timber of the Cape is of far better quality, whether it has one or two knots in it or not. We should therefore have a higher grading for the Cape timber vis-à-vis the Transvaal timber.

Finally, Sir, I come to the question of assistance to timber growers. Both the hon. member for Orange Grove and the hon. member for Malmesbury have indicated that with our present planning we cannot hone to meet the long-term timber requirements of this country. Would it not be possible for the facility of subsidization to timber growers to be extended not only to the small grower but also to the larger grower? I believe that the larger grower, who is able to expand more intelligently because of his greater knowledge of timber products and timber production, should receive the same facility as the small grower. The larger grower’s capital investment is larger, and he is more dependent on income from his investment over the 20 to 30 years needed for the maturing of timber, and I do appeal to the hon. the Minister to have this matter specifically investigated.

Finally, I see that in the Vote itself funds are allocated to forest research in two categories, i.e. the indigenous forest plantations and wattles and the storing and seasoning of timber, and that it is a mere R122 000. I believe this figure could well be doubled and that we should scour the world for information as to how we can improve our technique in all branches of the timber industry. I refer merely to the fact that in the suburb of Clifton, near Cape Town, when I was a boy we called those bungalows wooden motor-car packing cases, but only last week one of those wooden packing cases bungalows was disposed of at a price of R68 000, which brings me to the conclusion that we have not made sufficient investigations into the possible utilization of timber to a greater extent, it is known generally to hon. members of this House that in countries like Canada and America timber houses are readily accepted, whereas in this country we see very little of them except outside the cities. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think we have come to the end of a very pleasant debate on a subject which enjoys ever-increasing interest both among hon. members and in the country as a whole, because it is a fact that South Africa is already feeling the pinch of the backlog, which is increasing all the time, in our supply position with regard to timber. The entire debate was for the most part concerned with the present situation and the future supply position. But before dealing with that matter, I first want to express my gratitude to the hon. member for Humansdorp on this occasion for the fact that he welcomed the new Secretary for Forestry. I think everyone of us in this House is looking forward to having a very pleasant period of co-operation with our new Secretary. On behalf of the department, which went to great trouble to submit to you an excellent annual report, I wish to express my gratitude to those hon. members who referred to the excellent annual report and the comprehensive information contained therein.

I now start with the hon. member for Humansdorp, who referred to the question of afforestation permits. As hon. members will know, it was essential a few years ago to prevent injudicious afforestation from taking place in order to avoid a conflict arising between forestry interests and other interests later on. From various sides, starting with the hon. member for Humansdorp, reference was made to the question of permits. He wanted to know what the present position was as far as the issuing of permits was concerned and whether the fact that permits are being withheld in certain areas does not have a restrictive effect. He asked the question last night and this morning I had the exact position determined. Yesterday 933 applications were received and of this number 862 were granted, i.e. 92,4% of the applications of the percentage surface area. In addition, 42 applications were partly granted i.e. 4,5%. Only 3,1% is being held back. The surface area in respect of which application was made, amounts to 259 000 ha and the surface area for which approval was given, amounts to 230 000 ha. The surface area in respect of which applications are being held back, is 28 000 ha in extent. I am furnishing hon. members with these figures because the impression is being created that the afforestation programme is being delayed unnecessarily because of the fact that permits are held back while there is no need to do so. This is not the case, as hon. members themselves will see from these figures. It is quite essential—as we did a few years ago—that we should issue permits for afforestation. Hon. members should appreciate that had the situation been left as it was, we would have clashed with various other bodies which also have a right to the future utilization of the land, and this could have led to considerable monetary loss. Apart from that, an important industry such as the forestry industry cannot be allowed to develop in South Africa if no indication is given as to where its protected forestry areas are going to be. This is why this is being done. I also want to say on this occasion that no application is held back unless sound reasons exist for doing so and unless people apply to undertake afforestation in a critical area. Such critical areas do exist where the land will probably be required for industrial and other purposes in the near future. Critical areas also include areas in which critical water run-off areas are situated. I am referring particularly to the Umgeni area. Hon. members know that enormous development is taking place around Durban and such development depends on the available water supplies. Afforestation does have an effect on the run-off of catchment areas and although there is a need for timber, we can nevertheless not allow afforestation in areas where it may cause other damage. As far as the issuing of permits is concerned, I want to say immediately that permits are not being held back unnecessarily. As a matter of fact, it would have sounded unbelievable if we spoke of an afforestation programme of 50 000 ha per annum a number of years ago, but I can nevertheless inform hon. members that even at this stage applications have been received for 259 000 ha and that permits were granted to the majority of the applicants. I want hon. members on the opposite side of the House who discussed this matter, to bear in mind that if all the land for which permits have been granted is planted to trees, our programme will immediately be what it would have been in five years’ time according to our programme. In other words, it will provide in the needs of five years as far as afforestation is concerned. Consequently the position is not as poor as is being suggested.

The hon. member for Humansdorp wanted to know what progress we had made with our attempts to achieve our goal with afforestation. It is very difficult to answer this question because a goal is an ideal one has to strive for. I want to deal with questions which have been raised by other hon. members at the same time. Hon. members wanted to know what we, knowing that there is going to be a shortage in future, are doing to relieve that shortage to such an extent that we will not be heading for a catastrophe in 30 or 40 years’ time. When discussing the availability of timber and timber supplies. I want to point out to hon. members that afforestation alone is not the only factor by means of which we will be able to provide in our needs. There are also quite a number of other factors. Our afforestation economics is to a certain extent geared to a non-conservational industry, because people have, through the years, to a large extent not used the available supplies in the most economic manner. We in South Africa have never acted on the premise that we have to consider the tree as a whole. The fact is that there is so much waste in South Africa which is not being used at all that we would have far more timber if this reserve were to be utilized as well. For that reason it was essential that provision should be made that the available waste in the wattle industry be converted into an asset to the country. The Japanese export contract is a contract which is partly geared to using timber which was otherwise regarded as waste timber and which remained behind in the plantations or which was not utilized. According to current values, the contract is worth R100 million to the wattle growers today. There are also other possibilities. As I have said on a previous occasion, there is also the possibility of improving timber growing in a different way. It could be improved by making use of fertilizers. We have done nothing in this regard. The whole world seems to think that we should only use fertilizers for the production of food. However, no one has ever thought of increasing our timber supplies through the utilization of fertilizers for the production of timber. If one wants to grow a conifer over a period of 30 years, it does not mean that one has to apply fertilizers for 30 years. The indications are that when one wants to try and assist a tree in its initial growth through the application of fertilizers, it grows quicker than it usually does. In this way we could increase in our timber considerably. I do not know what the percentage is, but I am told that it could be as high as 50 to 80%. However, I cannot vouch the correctness of this percentage because we have done so little about it up to now. There are also other substantial reserves which could be used. In addition, we in South Africa have not yet developed a method to reclaim a satisfactory portion of our waste paper for re-use. In other parts of the world this is being done to a large extent. I am told that there are countries in which up to 40% of the waste paper is processed again. In some parts of the United States 24% of the waste paper is reclaimed. In our country, however, waste paper is destroyed by having it burned, or allowing it to be blown away by the wind. Just as water and also other materials can be reclaimed, so one can also reclaim paper. In addition, there are also other possibilities. What we are doing, is to ascertain whether a higher production could not be obtained on the same surface area by means of tree-breeding. Considerable progress has been made with such a tree-breeding programme, and today we are in a position to obtain considerably more production from trees which have been planted. On a previous occasion I said that by eliminating spirality and by developing plus trees—we were one of the first countries to have applied this system—suppliers would be enabled in future to enjoy very high production on the same surface area. There are many other things that can also be done. We in South Africa acted on the premise that we do not plant trees in areas where the rainfall is less than 32 inches per year. It is only now that we are thinking of making use of marginal areas, because there are many such areas where timber can be produced. In marginal areas timber increment might be slower, with the result that the private sector would not be interested in afforesting marginal areas at such a high cost and over such a long period of time. Perhaps this is where the State can fulfil a function. That is why it is so important that the State should remain to be a shareholder in the forestry industry. There are many people who reproach the State and who say that it should get out of the industry, but if the State were to withdraw from the industry today, and if the Department of Forestry were to hand over its production areas to other agencies—fortunately this kind of agitation is diminishing these days—I doubt whether any further marginal areas in South Africa would be afforested. Who else would do it? Only the State can do it. Perhaps our solution is not only to be found in this direction, but also in a different direction. Recently the Cabinet decided to proceed with the establishment of a Forest Union for Southern Africa. In the years that lie ahead the Republic of South Africa will not be able to provide in all its needs with the best will in the world. For that reason we have to ascertain what our neighbours will be able to provide us with.

In this regard I want to mention the example of the Transkei. A little while ago the Transkei, with the assistance of the Department of Forestry of the Republic, started its own afforestation programme. An agent was designated for this purpose. This agent—I am now speaking under correction —received 250 000 ha in the Transkei to afforest during the years that lie ahead. This will provide those people with an income. This industry is labour intensive and can quite easily be operated by them. We should continue in assisting one another in this way. As far as Swaziland is concerned, South Africa is its market. If we continue in this way, we might be able to find a field in which to co-operate to the benefit of all of us. South Africa is the natural market of the timber that comes from areas with which we hope to live in peace in future. I think if there is a terrain in which we can make co-operate and let people understand that it is better to talk together and to see what we can do for one another instead of threatening one another, the timber industry is an important terrain. As far as future supplies are concerned, I think we have to consider the whole complex of possibilities.

I hope that with this I have also replied to some of the sentiments expressed by other hon. members. The hon. member for Humansdorp also referred to the disposal of forestry land for other purposes. It is a fact that claim is continually laid to forestry land, be it on the part of industry, be it on the part of agriculture and other bodies. The standpoint has always been that in cases where no other possibility exists and where the Department of Forestry, after everything has been taken into consideration, has to make a contribution to prevent the economy from being impeded or in order to assist the infrastructure, it is willing to assist and make concessions, and that it will always do so in future. I also want to say that the Department of Forestry has to be very careful, because it is a State institution, that it does not always tend to give away and relinquish, because it also has a duty to provide in the timber needs of South Africa.

The hon. member also wanted to know what the position is in regard to afforestation loans. Hon. members will remember that the idea does exist. The hon. member for Orange Grove also made enquiries in this connection. I think my reply also serves as a reply to the representations made by the hon. member for Orange Grove. The hon. member for Humansdorp wanted to know what progress we have made in this connection. Hon. members will recall that these are loans to small afforesters. These are loans at 5 % interest which should partly assist in establishing a small woodlot, or the small plantation on every small farm. We see the possibility of having a large number of small woodlots in certain parts of the country which could all be exploited together and could make a contribution to our aggregate timber supplies. The necessary machinery has now been created and I believe considerable interest is being displayed in this matter. The scheme really commenced on 1 April, and if the enquiries that have been received and interest in this scheme are anything to judge by, I can tell you that many people are making use of this scheme. I hope this scheme is really going to be what it is intended to be, i.e. a major contribution to the afforestation programme of South Africa. The hon. member also asked me about marginal and sub-marginal land. I have just furnished him with a reply to his enquiry, but I want to say that we should also start afforesting marginal land. However, research is required in this connection, because we will probably also need the species suitable to marginal land. For that reason we are continually watching what is being done in the rest of the world. We are continually travelling throughout the world to see whether we cannot bring new and foreign species to South Africa to supplement that which we already have and to see whether they will be suitable for circumstances such as we have here. With the kind of research work that is being done, I believe that we will eventually know what the proper species is to plant in respect of all circumstances and all areas as far as climatic conditions and even the drier parts of our country are concerned. The hon. member for Oudtshoorn referred to the achievements of the department as far as safety measures are concerned. Where is the hon. member for Oudtshoorn?

He is not present.

The hon. member is not here. The hon. member referred to the achievements of the department and I want to say that the Department of Forestry is the first Government department to take part in the competition of the safety organization and it is indeed an achievement for a Government department to compete and beat the private sector as far as safety measures are concerned.

†The hon. member for Orange Grove asked me about tax relief. I want to say to him that it is very important—and we are doing our best—to have this increase in our supplies through afforestation as quickly as possible, and the hon. gentleman introduced the idea yesterday of having a system of tax relief in order to increase the tempo of afforestation. May I read to the hon. gentleman what the Minister said in relation to occasions where the Department of Bantu Administration excise land and take over forest areas—

*One of the other hon. members also referred to this matter. I want to say immediately that to have an industry in which one has a capital appreciation such as one has in the forestry industry, which results in an increase in valuation, and in which one is allowed to deduct all the expenses attached to the industry for income tax purposes, it means that one is being subsidized indirectly. I cannot see in which other way we could subsidize the forestry industry than by the method which is being applied at present, and I do not want to express an opinion on this matter either, because the whole question of subsidizing and tax concessions is really one which is being considered very carefully by the hon. the Minister of Finance. At this stage I would prefer not to anticipate anything else in this connection, because I do not believe that it will be easy to apply this principle in the forestry industry.

†The hon. member also indicated that he was perturbed about the staff position. He also referred to the question of the Knysna elephants and asked what was being done in connection with the conservation of animals in our nature reserves. I may point out that we in the department as well as others were always guessing how many elephants there were but we have received a report on the number of elephants since they were counted some years ago. We have again appointed a person, one who, I think, is the best qualified to do the job, to count the elephants in July this year. He is Dr. Adrian Bouchier of the Museum for Nature and Man, Johannesburg. I believe that Dr. Bouchier will be able to come to the correct figure. As for conservation in general, the hon. member will know that we have adopted the policy during the past few years of stressing the importance of nature conservation in our catchment and reserve areas. That is why we are going ahead with the idea of having wilderness areas and are also progressing in our endeavours to proclaim more areas as such. I may say that I think the next wilderness areas will be in Zululand and the Eastern Cape.

*The hon. member for Ermelo also referred to the question of tax concessions on death. I think I have already replied to that matter. The hon. member also expressed concern about the timber prices. I must say things are going better than ever before as far as the timber industry is concerned, and the hon. member agrees with this. From 1952 to 1972 timber prices only increased by 11%. I know of no one other commodity in respect of which prices increased at such a slow rate. In 1973 the price of softwood pulp increased by 15%, and in the following year there were two increases of 10% each. The price of softwood logs increased by 15% in 1973 and by 28% in 1974. What is important is that timber prices in South Africa increased by 65% during the past 23 years while the consumer’s index increased by 113%. Therefore, I say that as far as this commodity is concerned, the prices of raw material have increased at the slowest rate by far compared with price increases in the rest of our economy. It was also very difficult to obtain these price increases, because hon. members will appreciate that we experienced a surplus demand of timber in certain fields for a considerable time. It is a fact as far as the timber industry is concerned that we are self-sufficient in certain fields, while we are not self-sufficient in other fields. In a small economy it is very difficult to effect price adjustments in a just manner. One is not always in a position to do it the way one would like to do it. Then one has to allow the market mechanism also to play its part. The market mechanism has really played its part since 1972. It was at that time when a profound awareness manifested itself that strong competition has set in as far as our timber products are concerned. You will recall, Sir, that large quantities of timber were available before. For example, I have in mind hardwood species and the timber which was available in the wattle plantations, which could not be sold at a proper price and not all of which could even be sold. The mines bought a portion of that timber, but there was always a dispute as to what would become of the timber. There was always a dispute between the timber growers and the mines, because it was said that the timber was sold on a buyer’s market and not on a seller’s market. The result was that prices simply could not go up. As far as all kinds of timber is concerned, including timber used in mines and firewood, we have reached the stage where the position has changed today. The seller is now also in a better bargaining position.

I believe that we are going to experience a different kind of problem in the years ahead. We are going to hear this question, which we have heard to an increasing extent in the past, i.e.: “How are we going to establish proper price bargaining in the timber industry?” This has not always been an easy thing to achieve. If I may discuss the department itself, I want to say that the Department of Forestry owns its own forests and therefore sells timber itself. By establishing the price of sawlogs, the department had to give an indication in the past as to what the approximate price levels in South Africa should be. The department investigated its own cost structure as far as it was able to do so, but it also had to take into account the saleability of the final product. Because we have a very sensitive industry, it was unfortunately a fact in the timber industry that the price of timber to the grower, unlike the position in the other industries, was a residual price. The reason for this is that one has to start at the end and not at the beginning. It depends on what the price of the manufactured product is. From that point one works backwards to determine what the dealer in the final product is going to pay the supplier of sawn timber. On the basis of that price it is determined again what price is going to be paid to the supplier of round-wood. In other words, the grower, the person who sells round-wood, had to be satisfied with what was left. However, the situation is changing now. In the present-day world there is no longer a system according to which the person who produces the article has to be satisfied with the price that is left. The fact of the matter is that there is not sufficient timber for everyone in the world. This is also the case in South Africa. But since there is no longer such a thing as a residual price, a different kind of price determination has to come into effect. As far as the department is concerned, it tries to take all these factors into consideration. As far as the private grower is concerned, he now has to find other machinery. We hope the Forestry Council will be able to establish this machinery. A great deal of deliberation has taken place on this matter. I have had discussion with them and they themselves appointed a committee to go into these matters. In the first place, they: have been instructed to determine the basis according to which such a price assessment will take place. After this basis has been laid down, they have to determine all the factors which affect such a price. Furthermore they are also under the obligation, when I instruct them to determine a price in respect of timber of a particular kind, to determine such a price through mutual consultations. Sir, what we do not want is another control board. We do not want a forestry control board if it is in any way possible. Both sides of the House are satisfied with that, and this we want to try to avoid. But, Sir, if one does not want the State to the initiative and establish a control board, there has to be something else. Then the industry itself should try to control the matter. We are fast approaching the stage where the industry will have to sit down at a conference table and consider this matters. They appointed a committee of experts under the chairmanship of Prof. P. C. de Villiers, a forestry economist, to consider this matter. Now, it is a fact that if the committee fails to come to an agreement in respect of a dispute between the two parties, the seller and the consumer of the timber, or the grower and the buyer of the timber, this question will still remain: “What is the Minister going to do now?” because whatever this committee lays down, is not enforceable. All that remains to be done— and I cannot tell hon. members now what I am going to do—is to determine in which way one is going to enforce it when an agreement cannot be reached in regard to the price. I hope the Forestry Council will act in this manner itself and that it will not be necessary for the Minister to furnish that answer. I hope they will be able to find that answer themselves. It would then mean that the Forestry Council is going to establish the machinery to fix prices to the satisfaction of all parties in future. Because both sides have discussed this matter with me at such great length. I want to say now that I am not prepared now to say what I am going to consider in future. All I want to say, is this: I hope that the council will accept the responsibility to reach an agreement as adult persons in the interests of their own particular industries, in respect of the machinery they are going to create to determine those prices.

I have already dealt with the matters raised by the hon. member for Ermelo. The hon. member for Somerset East referred, among other things, to the problem of mountain fires in South Africa. It is a fact that this is a major problem. We are trying to combat these fires wherever we can. I can tell you that we have seen a considerable improvement in this connection during the last few years. The hon. member also referred to drift sand and what is being done in this connection. Furthermore, the hon. member wanted to know whether the export of waste timber could not be stopped. I do not think it should be stopped if there is no local demand. I should like briefly to sketch the history in this connection. As I have said a moment ago, there was a stage when we had a surplus of wattle timber. With the best will in the world the wattle growers could not succeed in selling their wattle timber. At that stage I was asked whether we would allow some of that timber to be exported. Three steps had been taken before permission was granted to enter into such a contract. In the first place, I asked the Forestry Council to consider the matter. The Forestry Council discussed the matter, and all the bodies are represented on that council. The mines, the major consumers, the sawmills, and everybody interested in the matter are represented on the Forestry Council. In conjunction with and with the permission of the mines that council then decided that there is a surplus of timber and that this excess timber may be exported. In addition, I requested the Board of Trade and Industries to consider this matter as well. The Board of Trade and Industries made a penetrating investigation into this matter and decided that a certain quantity of this kind of timber was available and would be available until we were of the opinion that it could be utilized here; timber which could be exported in the interim. In the third place, before we allowed this contract to be concluded, a specific offer was made to all consumers. They were asked: “Do you want this timber, now or in future?” All of them rejected this offer. After all these steps had been taken, the Cabinet decided that this timber could be exported to Japan until the industry had progressed to such an extent that our waste timber from the wattle industry could be used in South Africa. We then entered into a contract for 10 years. But after the contract had been entered into, the people said: “You should not have concluded the contract”. These were the same people who gave their, Permission, the same people who rejected, the offer to accept this timber. Then they said: “Yes, but in the meantime the gold price increased”. However, I want to put the record straight in this connection. The gold price had begun to rise already when this offer was made. By that time the gold price was no longer $35 per ounce. By that time the gold price was approximately $100 per ounce. Now the gold price is being advanced as an argument. To those people who argue in this way, I want to say immediately that I do not think we should put South Africa’s name at stake by cancelling a contract with Japan. I think we should do something else. I think they should start thinking of ways and means of processing the existing waste products, because until such time that all this will have been processed, there will still be a large quantity of timber which can be exported. In other words, I do not think we should cancel that contract. They should use their common sense and consider in which way they can process the waste timber, not all of which they can use in any case.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, only a few questions remain, and I should now like to dispose of them. The hon. member for Ermelo asked me to what extent the Forestry Council is undertaking planning in regard to the future timber supply. I can only tell the hon. member that the department itself is engaged in planning with a view to the future afforestations. I also want to point out to the hon. member that one of the important things which the Forestry Council has done, has been, inter alia, to carry out an exhaustive investigation of the entire timber situation. The Forestry Council, on its part, has also established a study group to see to what extent it is possible for rationalization to take place in regional areas so that timber need not be conveyed back and forth between areas. I think there is a measure of profit inherent in this. Then, too, the Forestry Council is, in co-operation with other bodies, ascertaining what it is able to do on its part with its own afforestations with a view to the future.

The hon. member for Somerset East also asked me about possible wilderness areas in the Eastern Cape. I have already stated in passing that there is such a plan I want to tell the hon. member that we have identified an area which will be very well suited to this purpose. In regard to the area concerned it will also be possible to make a contribution in regard to nature conservation. It is a pleasure for me to tell him that the identified area which is soon going to be declared a wilderness area is the Groendal area. This is the Kouga and Baviaanskloof area. I was there a little while ago, and I found that the area is a little inaccessible, but its natural beauty is unsullied. I think that this area will also in future make a contribution to general nature conservation. It is an exceptional area, and with the necessary planning I think that the hon. member may be satisfied that the Eastern Cape is not being forgotten.

The hon. member for South Coast inquired about the position in regard to SAICCOR. I think I have already dealt with the entire question of timber provision. In general, SAICCOR is concerned about where it is going to obtain its supplies, but that concern it has already had for a very long time. As a matter of fact, they asked: for reserves which can be used, and I do not think that SAICCOR itself need be concerned about the future. After all, if they have their eye on the Japanese contract and on the timber which is being exported, I want to tell them that I do not think the Japanese contract is going to make such inroads that they need be concerned. We must bear in mind that SAICCOR manufactures rayon pulp, pulp for export purposes. The question also arises whether the day is not going to arrive when we should utilize the pulp in South Africa for South Africa’s purposes. In general I do not think there need by any great concern about the future, for we are keeping an eye on matters in this regard.

The hon. member also expressed concern at the fact that certain afforested areas will be transferred to the Bantu homelands. Transference to Bantu homelands need not inevitably be accompanied by destruction or deterioration of such forests. In the Bantu homelands afforestation has been tackled for many years, with the Department of Forestry acting as agent. The hon. member must also bear in mind that it is a source of income and employment in the homelands. I also want to say that the Department of Forestry, in co-operation with the Forestry Council, is already negotiating with the Department of Bantu Education on the training of Bantu for the forestry industry, so that they will be more knowledgeable as far as the management and also the control of their own industry is concerned. In other words, it is not merely the simple transference of such a forest, but also the maintenance thereof, and it would be very foolish of such homeland leaders if they did not see to this. Once again I want to mention the case of the Transkei. The Government of the Transkei itself, on its part, went out of its way to develop the forest industry in the Transkei. We have no reason to think or to expect that there is any deterioration. In fact, I think it is possible for considerably more afforestation to take place in the homelands.

The hon. member for Standerton asked what progress had been made towards the completion of the hiking ways. This hiking way has stirred people’s imagination throughout the country, it has aroused so much interest that everyone is asking what progress has been made with it. I just want to say that attention is being given to five different points at the same time. As far as the Eastern Transvaal is concerned, I can inform the hon. member that he will be able to let his children go hiking along that path in their holidays. The hon. member also expressed concern about the erosion which is taking place in areas which are to afforested. This is true. Erosion is taking place throughout the entire world. We are doing our best to cope with it. In Natal, for example, there is very good co-operation between the Department of Forestry and the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. There is a professional officer from that department who is in fact furnishing advice in regard to the restoration of such, forest areas. I want to say that this co-operation already exists. Any person may come forward and express his concern, and attention will be given to this. I want to say at once that we are not merely giving attention to those areas which fall under our control. There are mountain catchment areas—water conservation areas—and in addition there are areas which we are administering on behalf of the Department of Agriculture. We must also see to the conservation of these areas. This is a very important object of the control exercised over these areas by the Department of Forestry. The hon. member will also recall that the Act provides that the Minister may intervene in such an area and issue directives. He may require people to do certain things or to refrain from doing certain things. This will be done. In fact, all of us feel that these areas should not simply be set aside; we should also protect and preserve what we set aside.

The hon. member for Malmesbury raised quite a number of points. He discussed firefighting and the fire-fighting committees. He asked whether the Department of Forestry should not give attention to the hakea which grows on private property. We can also consider eradicating hakea on private property as well. The hon. member also complained about the fires which occur. He raised the question of people who camp next to the roads, and cause these fire problems for us. This is of course a major problem. How can we cope with this problem? How can we let everyone know that they should behave in a proper manner in this regard? We are doing our best as far as this matter is concerned with information and control. What happens, however, is that people tend to stop next to the road and light a fire. Then they leave the fire, and this gives rise to bigger fires. I want to tell the hon. member that the legislation provides that we may counteract this. We have also tightened up the provisions of the Forestry Act to enable us to take more stringent action. However, it is not merely à matter for the department; it is also a matter for the entire country. Our entire country and entire nation should be more careful in regard to the lighting of fires when they stop next to the roads.

The hon. member for Cape Town Gardens asked whether we could not develop the recreational resorts more rapidly. Recreational resorts are being developed, and I think that in future we will have far more of them. We are trying to do more in this regard. If he discusses this matter with the department the hon. member would be surprised to see the map on which all the recreational resorts are situated. The hon. member also asked whether we cannot in future co-operate with the mountain club. That is the intention. The Act which we passed a short while ago provides for the appointment of a board which will be able to take action in this regard. It is also my intention to appoint a member of the mountain club to such a board. The hon. member also referred to the problems which arose a short while ago in regard to paper, the importing of paper, and the fact that at one stage too much had been imported, and that our own paper manufacturers in South Africa were unable to dispose of their supplies.

That was the result of over-importation at one stage. The matter has to rectify itself, but attention is being given to the matter by the Department of Trade and Industries to see whether something of this nature cannot be avoided in future. With this I think I have replied to all the questions.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister referred to an agency which has been allocated to someone in the Transkei for growing timber. I think he mentioned 250 000 ha. Will there still be control by permit as to where or when these people may export their timber?

It is up to the Transkei Government to deal with that. The important fact is that we shall have the utilization of the land in the Transkei. It is important that we should have the development of the industry in the homelands. I have cited this one instance to indicate that there is not just a possibility of this development. Actually, in pursuance of this policy, that situation is being developed at the moment.

We will have the utilization of the land, but will South Africa have the use of the timber?

Of course, South Africa will he the natural importer of the timber. In any case, we as a close neighbour will, of course, help with the development and give advice. I think we will be the natural buyers.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 29 and S.W.A. Vote No. 18.—“Health” and Revenue Vote No. 30.—“Health: Hospitals and Institutions”:

Mr. Chairman, about three months ago a directive went out to mission hospitals from the Department of Health to the effect that the Government had decided to place the homeland mission hospitals under State control. This is a direct reversal of the assurance given in May 1970 to the mission hospitals consultative committee, to the effect that the autonomy of mission hospitals would never be interfered with. To make them State hospitals now against the repeated recommendation of the mission hospitals consultative committee, and without any negotiations with the missions and churches concerned, seems to me to be not only a very high-handed method of dealing with these people, but also another example of bureaucratic government. What does this mean? This means that the Department of Health, on behalf of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, will take over these hospitals. This takeover does not only involve one or two hospitals. The mission hospitals are the backbone of the health services in the homelands. From the figures I have, it would appear that there are 92 mission hospitals that are going to be taken over, and that in contrast to the 13 other hospitals in the homelands. There are also 543 clinics, and these will be taken over by the Government as well. Not all of these clinics are run by the mission hospitals, but a great majority of them are. These mission hospitals are run by churches. For many years they have provided the service that this Government has failed to provide. They have been financed to a great extent by the State, but the running of these hospitals, the devotion given to the patients by these people and the recruitment of staff have in the main been the concern of the churches, who do this work. The churches, of course, are of all denominations and we should be grateful to them for what they have done. This is not just a matter of providing money to run these mission hospitals. These mission hospitals are run as a family unit. They recruit and bring together people from outside this country to serve the hospitals. I have here a brochure from one of the mission hospitals, which gives some idea of where these people come from. They come from Ireland, America and England, and not only that, but these people bring students from overseas universities as well. How are these mission hospitals now going to be run? The Minister must tell us why it is necessary for the State to take them over. This is going to be a mixed bag of control and one does not know where to start or where to end in this control. From what I can see from the directive that was sent out by the Department of Health, it would appear that State will have a share in the control. The homeland Governments will have a share in the control and the Department of Bantu Administration and Development will have a share. I want to refer briefly, in the short time I have, to this directive. The doctors, the paramedical staff, pharmacists, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, etc., will be separated from the administrative and clerical personnel, the stores officer and so on. The two departments will continue to second staff to the homeland Government. Each will have to second staff to the homeland Government. If that separation is not enough, we find that the State, the Republic of South Africa, will look after the White staff, and the homeland Government in the same hospital will look after the Bantu staff. Just imagine the chaos that will come about in these hospitals. Furthermore, one will not be able to ascertain who is going to control what. I just for the life of me cannot understand why it is necessary to have this separation. If these people were not doing their work properly, if the mission hospitals were a failure, and we found that because of the structures that are there it was necessary for the State to take over, it may be necessary then to do so, but what has gone wrong with the mission hospitals that the State has got to interfere with them? Why did they not consult with the mission hospitals and get their agreement, and why has it not been made clear to us in this House that this was going to be done and that the various compensation measures were going to be taken? These are matters that we want to know. If this was going to alleviate the shortages that eyist in the mission hospitals, as in all other hospitals and departments, I could understand that there would be some reason for it, but will this give more beds to the mission hospitals? Is this going to give a better staff to the mission hospitals? Is this going to allow the present staff of the mission hospitals not to be members of the Public Service? The Minister must tell the House what the idea was behind all this. It is obvious to me that the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has had his finger in the pie here. He is not satisfied unless he can have some control of hospitals outside White South Africa. He is always interfering and up to now he has not made a success of anything. I do not know why the Minister of Health allows this sort of thing to happen. I should like to hear from the Minister this afternoon why he has allowed this to happen. In addition, as I have said, to the difficulties we have to face, we have to decide what to do about the growing shortages which are occurring not only in the Bantu homelands but also in White South Africa as far as staff is concerned. It was good to hear that a medical school is going to be established at the Ga Rankuwa Hospital.

Do you like that?

I think it is a very good idea, but why only now? It should have been done years ago. [Interjections.] All of a sudden the other side of the House has become verlig whilst we on this side of the House have been pleading year after year that the Baragwanath Hospital be converted into a teaching hospital for Black medical students. Refusal after refusal followed and the Government still will not use a well-established and well-staffed hospital like Baragwanath, which is world famous. [Interjections.] When a man is sick, what difference does it make whether the doctor was trained in a homeland or in White South Africa? Since when must we have these restrictions when it comes to education? Apparently it is a great sin to have a White student and a Black student studying together at the same university, but at the moment it is not a great sin for a White man and a Black man to sit and have a drink together at an hotel. They are allowed to do that, but when it comes to higher education that, of course, has to be separated. I think that what has been going on in our country is disgraceful. We are supposed to be a verligte and outward looking country, but what are we doing? In regard to the things that matter we are doing nothing. Education is as separate today as it was years and years ago. But the hon. the Minister has asked the two White universities to help at the Ga Rankuwa Hospital.

So?

Of course that is right, but why do they not use Baragwanath Hospital which has all the staff ready and which is next door to the University of the Witwatersrand? The hon. member for Rustenburg was a student there and he probably took out teeth at Baragwanath Hospital, which probably is the reason why he is a good dentist. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not know why my hon. colleague for Rosettenville became so excited today. These things have been going on for years and it has taken him so many years to get excited about them. I simply do not understand it.

I do not want to follow up on the hon. member’s argument. I want to discuss our health planning services. As hon. members are aware, last year, 1974, was the U.N.’s population planning year. During the State President’s address at the opening of Parliament in 1974, the State President said the following—

Nor has the Government let the grass grow under its feet. In June 1974 the hon. the Minister announced the National Family Planning programme. What is the aim of this planning programme? The department is establishing a safe, reliable and acceptable service. In the second instance, the service is being expanded so as to be comprehensive and affect the whole country and in addition it must be co-ordinated so that all the services in the country, both those which already exist and those which are still to be created, will continue with the programme. I do not think it is necessary to investigate the requirements. We know what the requirements are and we know what the birth-rate is. We are given this by the Department of Statistics and then we get a projection of the demographs for the future. From these it is very clear that since the beginning of the century, the birth-rate of the Whites has tended to drop, with the result that the birth-rate among Whites is in the region of 23 per 1 000. Over the past ten years there has been a tendency among the Coloureds, too, for the birth-rate to drop, with the result that their birth-rate is now 35 per 1 000 whereas ten years ago it was 45 per 1 000. In other words, the Coloureds’ birth-rate has dropped by 25%. On the other hand, the Bantu still have a very high birth-rate, viz. 45 per 1 000. We know that this high birth-rate is very closely linked to high fertility. The higher fertility of the Bantu is closely linked to the high death-rate—I almost want to say the traditionally high death-rate in developing countries and developing populations. As health services have improved, this high death-rate has dropped and at the moment it is very low. This, again, results in a high population figure, and as a result we have the so-called population explosion. In my opinion we have reached the stage at which we must get away from the sensational figures that are often quoted. Predictions are often made as to how by the year 2000, 2010 or perhaps 2050 we shall be treading on each other’s toes; how there will no longer be water for us to drink, etc. I think that we are now past that stage. We have reached the stage at which we have to tackle the matter, put our shoulders to the wheel and do something purposeful. What must we do? What is the aim of family planning? The whole programme is aimed at informing men and women and providing services and means for voluntary—and I repeat “voluntary”—control of fertility. It can rightly be said, “uplift people socio-economically, and the birth-rate automatically drops”. That is correct, but nevertheless not entirely correct, since the opposite is also proven. In countries such as Brazil and Mexico, for example, where large-scale socio-economic upliftment is taking place, the birth-rate has by no means dropped. We therefore have no alternative but to split this whole effort into a short-term and a long-term programme. The long-term programme does not fall within the ambit of the Department of Health; it is based on the socio-economic upliftment of the entire population—the Whites, the Asians, the Coloureds and the Bantu. When we come to the short-term programme, we are faced with family planning. During the ’thirties, family planning started with family planning associations. It started on a voluntary basis. However, these organizations did not really develop momentum before the ’sixties. It was only in the ’sixties that we began to have the real discoveries in this sphere. I refer to the development of the preparation now commonly known as “the Pill”.

Hear, hear!

Through routine use this preparation has made it easy for the woman to control and reduce her fertility. Only at that stage could a start be made with true family planning. In addition, a start was made at that stage with, the extension of clinics by local managements, provincial administrations and hospitals and also clinics manned by volunteers. The Department of Health assisted by awarding subsidies and providing medicaments. At that stage, however, there was only a seven-eighths subsidy in respect of the staff. This was the position from 1965. From 1972 we entered the second phase. The department went ahead and did the necessary spadework. The clinics were expanded and the necessary co-ordination was established between the hospital administrations of the provinces and the local managements, the district surgeons, the clinics and the Department of Health as well as day hospitals and other bodies. The financial expenditure was guaranteed in toto by the Department of Health.

The third phase started in 1974 with the announcement by the State President, and subsequently by the hon. the Minister, of a national family planning programme. When this phase started the clinics were already established and intensive efforts could be made in regard to the training of staff. The training of guidance officers enjoyed high priority. Training courses for nurses included courses in guidance so that special guidance sisters could be trained. The implementation of the whole programme started to develop momentum. What is most important is the fact that propaganda could be made owing to the availability of guidance officers. The necessary guidance is now being provided and there is an intensive campaign to persuade people to visit these guidance clinics. A high degree of success has already been achieved in this regard. Let us consider the circumstances. In 1967 there were 370 clinics. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member came up with a number of interesting ideas and evidently he has not completed his speech. I should like to ask that he be given the opportunity to complete it.

Mr. Chairman. I thank the hon. member. As I have said, in 1967 there were 370 clinics. By the end of 1974 there were already 1 864 clinics. In 1969, 289 000 women visited the clinics, and in 1974 the figure was 437 000, in other words, almost double the figure for 1969. In 1968, 430 000 packets of pills were issued and in 1974 this rose to 5,5 million at a cost of R1,6 million. In the meantime, the staff had also increased and in 1974 there were 155 part-time and full-time doctors, 469 nurses and 74 other staff involved in family planning. The intention is to have 900 guidance officers within five years. The whole programme is therefore under way and these people are doing a wonderful job.

The homelands, too, are being brought into the picture. The planning as far as the homelands is concerned, is level-headed. The basic services are provided at clinics and hospitals for those who request them. However, the third phase is not being implemented, unless the homeland leaders themselves also request it. The propaganda, the information service, can only succeed if the people who are dealing with it are properly motivated and if we get away from population scaremongering and Malthusian theories and if the people who have to make use of this service see that it involves an immediate benefit. That is why, in their liaison with the homelands and the homeland hospitals, the Department of Health has achieved outstanding success. They have been so successful that some of the homeland governments, inter alia, those of Bophuthatswana, Lebowa and the Ciskei have asked the Department of Health, “Come and help us with this task.” A truly exceptional service is being performed here.

How does the Department of Health disseminate this information? When we were all gathered here at the beginning of the year, all of you received an interesting programme, viz. the National Family Programme. It provides a full explanation of how this service is planned and this information disseminated. It is done by means of Bantu Radio, show exhibits, placards and brochures. But apart from the dissemination of information through all these mass media, the most important way in which this information service and family planning service can be brought to the attention of the population is still personal information. In other words, it is the task of the guidance officer to attend to the people at the clinic, the people to whom the services have to be provided, the women who have to make use of the services. I have already mentioned the figure indicating the degree of success achieved. If you were to ask me whether I was quite satisfied, I should have to say “yes”. In my opinion these people have achieved an exceptional degree of success. But the most difficult part still lies ahead and only after a number of years will it be possible to evaluate whatever success the department may have achieved in this regard because the success of a pian of this nature, however intensively tackled, cannot be determined or evaluated before a number of years have passed and we have birth statistics for the years concerned. Only then snail we be able to evaluate the degree of success. In the meantime, the department is engaged in further research in regard to the percentage of people who accept guidance. What percentage of women accept this guidance, but do not use it? What are the reasons for their not wanting to accept it? Why do they stop doing so? One could speculate at length on this interesting problem. However, I do not want to say any more about it. I think that the department has tackled an exceptional task in this regard, a task about which one could say, if one were trying to be funny, that it should have been tackled long ago. But the fact remains that it has been tackled, and we are grateful for this. We are particularly grateful for the degree of success achieved. I think it would be fitting for this House to congratulate the Department of Health and wish them every sucess and, in the first place, express its thanks to the many men and women who have rendered services through the years for which they have received no compensation. It is fitting that we should convey our sincere thanks to these people, who are still rendering an unselfish service by administering these guidance clinics for propaganda purposes. There is still a great deal to be done. The average population growth of the Western world is about 16 per 1 000. The rate of increase of the Whites in South Africa is 23 per 1 000 whereas that of West Germany is 10 per 1000. I do not know whether one would want such a low population increase as that of Japan. According to the projections of demographs, the Japanese have reached a stage at which, by the year 1990, there will be one elderly person for every child who needs to be looked after by an adult. I do not know whether we should go to that extreme. Whatever the case may be, I think the Department of Health and its team deserve our thanks.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Fauresmith has dealt with family planning. I propose to deal with the planning of dental services. The hon. member for Fauresmith is in a very fortunate position, because if one studies these Estimates, we find that an amount of R3 500 000 has been voted for family planning services. Believe me, I agree with the hon. member when he talks about the priority of this service. But when we come to the subject which I wish to raise, viz. the question of dental services, we find that the amount is only 1/ 300th of that, viz. R125 000. Before I expand on this particular subject, I want to ask the hon. the Minister a question. I want to refer him to subhead E in the Estimates, where I note that for “Health publicity and educative work” almost R½ million is to be voted, and that this represents a 300% increase. I want to make it quite clear that we welcome the increase in expenditure on this most important item. The question I wish to address to the hon. the Minister is whether he is able to reassure me that sufficient emphasis will be placed on publicizing the health hazards of cigarette smoking in the ambit of activity of this particular vote. I raise this particularly because in the hon. the Minister’s estimates there is an amount of R200 voted for the S.A. National Cancer Association. To my knowledge that amount has remained at R200 for almost ten years. In effect, with the decreasing value of the rand, it is probably worth about R75 to the S.A. National Cancer Association. As far as I am aware, that is the only public body which has utilized its resources and energies in trying at least to neutralize the effect of modern promotional methods in regard to the promotion of the sale of cigarettes. I hope the hon. the Minister will answer me in regard to the expenditure which he intends will be allocated under the item “Health publicity and educative work”, and that he will be a little more generous in future to the S.A. National Cancer Association.

I come back to the question of dental services and I wish to quote from last year’s report of the Department of Health in which it says, referring to dental clinics—

In reply to a question which I asked the hon. the Minister earlier this year, he indicated that as far as these clinics were concerned which were being developed and established as a result of the report, where the three bodies were concernd, eight clinics had been established in the Transvaal and three in the Caps Province and that an amount of R182 000 had been expended; R106 000 for the three in the Cape Province and the balance for those in the Transvaal. I notice an omission, in that there was apparently no development in this direction either in the Free State or Natal and as far as I am aware, no expenditure is recorded in that connection. I want to ask the hon. the Minister if he can give any information as to when a start will be made in that direction and what the nature will be of the development of these particular clinics.

I want to refer also the latest report, because here a fair amount of well-merited publicity is given to the fact that the chief dentist of the Department of Health attended the world congress of the Federation Dentaire Internationale, where there were 3 000 delegates representing 68 countries. It is interesting to consider the wording which appears in the report of the Department of Health. In the report of the chief dentist, he said—

The report went on to deal with salient features such as the high demand for dental care in certain special avenues. As regards the priority groups, it listed the school children, the infirm and the aged. The report went on to say that throughout the world health authorities were playing an increasing role in providing services since—and I think this is very important— private practitioners are unable to do this on a nationwide basis. It also said that there was a significant shift of emphasis to preventive services and that the authorities were assuming increasing responsibility in this regard. I hope the hon. the Minister will prove me wrong, but I want to ask him whether his department is not dragging its feet a little in this particular respect as compared with expenditure on other heads.

I know that from the point of view of the White population one could claim that the services are adequate—I believe the services are expensive for those who do not benefit under medical schemes and even under medical schemes there is the problem of dentists opting out because of increased payments to medical aid schemes but what is the picture in regard to non-Whites in general? I am sure the hon. the Minister will recollect that in 1963 a special commission was appointed to inquire into dental services and the training of non-White dentists. In July we shall have had this report for five years. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can indicate the extent to which his department has been able to implement some of the recommendations of that commission, during this period.

The commission (pointed out that in 1965 there were 1 380 dentists, which included only 12 non-White dentists. It became apparent during a debate this week that in so far as the homelands are concerned, there is not a single non-White dentist in practice in the homelands at the moment. The commission made the significant statement that it also found dental care in African schools to be almost non-existent.

Time precludes my going into further detail there, but I want to express a personal opinion in regard to the Coloured population. I find it a cause of distress to notice the large number of Coloured people who appear to have lost their teeth at a comparatively early age. I wonder, too, whether the time has not come for consideration to be given to more extensive services for them.

Then we have the question of the Indian population. The hon. the Minister will recollect that in 1973 in dealing with a Bill I raised the question of the shortage of Indian dentists and also the question of the registration of Indian dentists with foreign qualifications. I know there are safeguards that exist in that connection and I realize the necessity for them in the Act. However, the hon. the Minister agreed that there was a difficult situation in Natal. I quote from Hansard where he said—

Is the hon. the Minister able to indicate whether this position has now been eased through a relaxation in respect of the registration of Indian dentists with foreign qualifications?

I think it is advisable to try to examine the participation of the State in dental services at the present time. If one studies the report, one finds that there seems to be an emphasis on the medical profession, which is very necessary. It is indicated that there are 618 professional medical staff members in the service of the State, but it would also appear that the dental services of the State are operating at a low key because there are precisely 15 dentists and one dental mechanician listed on the establishment of the State in the report. It is no use our believing that the provinces can supplement these services to any marked degree because the provinces have limited powers of taxation and they are dependent on the State particularly for subsidies in regard to health services in general.

Finally, Sir, I want to quote this comment which came from a well-known dentist in 1971. He said—

These are his words. He goes on to say—

I realize that the hon. the Minister is in a difficult position in regard to this particular matter. There is a division of opinion particularly among lay people in regard to the advantages and disadvantages of fluoridation. I know that the public has been bombarded with material by people who claim to be authorities on anti-fluoridation. I also believe, however, that the hon. the Minister is the only person who can impartially and objectively assess the position in regard to fluoridation. I want to ask him whether he will be prepared in his reply to indicate whether the Government in fact intends to implement the recommendations of the commission which investigated the question of fluoridation. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea raised the very important question of dental services in South Africa. However, one cannot ignore the fact that for many years we have had a chronic shortage of dentists in South Africa. In fact, I think that at one stage the number of dentists practising in South Africa actually decreased. This is certainly a serious situation and I want to pay a special tribute to the dental profession today and to say that II think they are doing a very fine job in very difficult circumstances.

*Mr. Chairman, the medical profession cannot get away from the fact that the knowledge explosion in the world during the twentieth century has brought about a change in this profession with regard to methods of practice as well as the evaluation of certain data. It is also the case as far as the attitude of the doctor towards his patient is concerned. This relation between doctor and patient has also undergone a great change, mainly as a result of changed values, changed economic considerations, and perhaps also with regard to the availability of time as far as the general practitioner is concerned. Although people’s life expectancy kept increasing during this process, these changes were not always for the better and a tendency developed to take a more materialistic view of life, as far as both the doctor and the patient are concerned. In order to meet this situation, the medical profession and the Department of Health have had to make considerable adjustments over the past few years by the re-organization of the department and by bringing new legislation to this House. I want to state frankly that the Department of Health has succeeded wonderfully in building up an excellent system for us in South Africa in the process of change. By that I do not mean that there is not room for considerable improvement, although much has been done. During the past week we had another opportunity to see what this department is doing, while paying a visit to certain institutions for the mentally ill here in the Peninsula, namely the Majestic Hotel and Valkenberg. It was good to see how this new approach of the Department of Health is already starting to bear fruit. Although the medical profession has maintained a very high ethic standard through the years and still does, certain aspects which result from this changed situation unfortunately cause me great concern. I am referring to certain malpractices which have appeared in recent years in particular. These malpractices in the medical profession result mainly from certain factors in this new situation. The practitioners do not always keep abreast of new methods and developments, because new methods are developed throughout the world almost every day. Secondly, because of the pressure resulting from limited time, patients and their problems are not adequately examined. Furthermore, Sir, the loss of clinical expertise, because of the availability of an enormous number of special examinations which are readily available— unfortunately at very great cost for the patient—entails that a great number of very often unnecessary special examinations are carried out. I also want to point out that the lack of judgment in applying modern potent and sophisticated remedies —I do not want to suggest that it happens on a large scale, but it is noticeable —has certain iatrogenic results and that they are sometimes applied to kill the proverbial fly with a sledgehammer. Furthermore, Sir, far too many unnecessary operations are performed because of the fact that it is fairly easy today to obtain operative facilities. Many operations are performed today on cases where I think a more conservative treatment or other method could control a condition. In this regard I wish to mention an example which was mentioned to me recently by a colleague about a certain patient who wanted to have an adipose gland under he skin removed. This patient insisted that he wanted to see a specialist. It seems to be fashionable these days to see a specialist for anything. This patient had to travel to Pretoria. There he was subjected to a number of special examinations which had nothing whatsoever to do with this particular condition. This particular case could possibly have been treated in the consulting rooms of the doctor under local anaesthetic for a few rand. After all these special examinations had been carried out, and after additional proceedings which in my opinion were unnecessary, because the results were negative in any case, the patient’s account amounted to R600. This is the type of thing which happens today and which we are unhappy about. Sir, this is just one example, but I wish to ask how many hysterectomies are done in South Africa where the pathological report which is later sent to the doctor is negative. These are things that worry us, Sir, and we are not mentioning it today to pass negative criticism on medical science, but indeed to make a contribution to this vitally important profession. It is of course impossible for the public to judge for themselves in such cases, but I know that there is a great need for medical knowledge on the part of the public and that they are tremendously interested in medical news. I think the Press would do well to take notice of this situation. Of course, it is not possible for the Medical Council, which maintains a very high disciplinary code, to act effectively except in cases where a complaint is laid before the board, and then it still remains an open question whether such a doctor did not indeed act in good faith. The solution does not lie in legislation; the solution rather lies in the fact that the public should be better educated and informed and that the medical schools should give more special attention to these particular problems and that our medical associations in South Africa should have much more authority over their members and profession. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Newcastle has drawn the attention of the House to a very serious matter and has expressed his unhappiness about some of the abuses within this very noble profession. One is reassured to know that whilst of course some of these abuses do take place, it is only in a very small minority of cases.

I wish to refer briefly to the annual report of the Department of Health, which contains many interesting and informative examples of the kind of work done by the department. I want to refer especially to the report on family planning, which was specially focused upon last year, in 1974. This is a tremendous step forward and one can only wish the department well in its continued efforts in this direction. Just as a comment, I want to say that I noticed in the Press that the S.A. Broadcasting Corporation had banned a special little song composed by Des and Dawn Lindberg, which was supposed to be played over the air. It is quite an attractive little song with a nice melody and I wondered whether the Minister of Health had made any approaches to the SABC or to his colleagues to veto that or to overrule it, or whether there is another song being written. I understand the Zulu version is being played regularly, but not the English and Afrikaans versions.

Sing it for us.

It is a very attractive song and if I had the time I would sing it, but unfortunately I do not have that opportunity. Sir, on a more serious note, one of course has to accept the fact that family planning is not a politically neutral issue in South Africa, unfortunately. Once again one has heard voices raised against this and suspicions voiced, and I hope very much that the hon. the Minister will reassure us that where this family planning has been practised and has been extended throughout the country, the resistance to it has been minimal. Mr. Sam Motsenyane, the president of the African Federated Chamber of Industries, does, I think, make a very good point when he says that the elimination of Black poverty and mass illiteracy must go hand in hand with family planning. I am sure that this whole socio-economic problem must be seen against that background.

The other point I want to raise from the report relates to the care of the mentally handicapped. Once again we have seen from the report that there is still overcrowding. The report very honestly faces up to this problem, but this was raised last year and we raise it again. The capacity for Whites, for example, is 5 488 according to the department’s report, with an overcrowding of 210, and the capacity for Blacks is 9 243, with an overcrowding of almost 3 000. The department points out that in addition there are more than 1 200 Whites and almost 2 0000 Black patients absent on leave, who may be sent back at any time, thus aggravating the overcrowding situation. In this connection I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he is familiar with an article which appeared in the Sunday Times on 27 April under the headline: “Millions out of madness”. I am not certain whether this is correct, but I certainly have not seen any denial of this by the department, although I may have missed it. In 1963 a private company started off by accommodating 700 Black mental patients which the department could not handle, and this company has now had an amount of over R5 million set aside in the Estimates for the current financial year. This is a very large amount of money and it is a very serious situation. I suppose that one should be grateful that a private businessman is willing to meet a situation which the department simply cannot handle at this time. One hopes very much, however, that this is not going to escalate and that there is adequate control and inspection of these areas. If this article is correct, a great number of these institutions which are managed by private enterprise leave a great deal to be desired. In fact, the facts as stated in this article are very alarming indeed. I hope that the hon, the Minister will respond to that in his reply to the debate.

The other aspect I wish to refer to is one which I am sure is referred to every year during the debate on this Vote. That is the perennial shortage of doctors. Many figures have been advanced, but I suppose the best was the one advanced by the hon. the Minister of National Education in 1972. He said that South Africa—I realize that these figures must be qualified, and I shall do that in a moment—has one White doctor for every 400 Whites and one African doctor for every 44 400 Africans. Obviously, a great number of White doctors care for African, Coloured and Indian patients as well, but nevertheless it is a serious situation. My attention has been drawn to a little booklet entitled The need for doctors in South Africa by Peter Cooper and I am sure that the hon. the Minister has seen it, that his department is aware of it and that hon. members of this House have read it. This booklet does highlight the quite incredible overall shortage of doctors which exists in South Africa today. I want to make a plea again for more doctors and especially for more facilities on every level for the training of Black doctors. One welcomes the announcement made earlier this week that there is going to be a further medical training school at the hospital at Ga Rankuwa, but as was suggested earlier in this debate, this is just a drop in the ocean. A great deal more attention should be given to the need for more and more doctors in South Africa. There is one aspect of this to which I want to refer. No matter how much provision is made for the training of doctors, and even if there was a national campaign and enormous funds for education, training and opportunities, it is going to take us years to meet the backlog. I wonder if the hon. the Minister would care to comment on the attitude of his department today towards the whole question of medical auxiliaries. This is nothing new and one obviously knows that this practice is followed in places as far away as China, Africa and India where they have a similar problem, namely a problem of a developing country with masses and masses of people especially in the rural areas who have no or very little medical attention at all. As a result they have introduced this category which one can describe as medical auxiliaries. Of course there is opposition from the medical profession because it is felt that the medical auxiliary is a kind of second-rate or inferior doctor. This, however, is not what I am talking about and I am not asking that we replace the present doctor, but I am suggesting what has been suggested in other places and that is that we develop the whole team concept far more because the incredible neglect of people in the rural areas in respect of medical health is illustrated again and again in the case of the mission hospitals, for example, where one sees the overcrowding and the hundreds and thousands of people who come streaming from large areas over vast distances in order to try to get some sort of medical assistance. It seems to me to be a matter of fundamental importance to develop a concept of medical auxiliaries. To do that, we simply have to overcome the prejudice against this. One has to look at it very carefully. One of the things that would help us enormously over this hurdle is to make sure that we do not speak only of Black medical auxiliaries otherwise it may come to the minds of people that there are first-class White doctors and then Black medical auxiliaries or second-class doctors. This is not what I am talking about. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am very thankful this afternoon that the rules of this House do not make provision for hon. members singing while they make their speeches, because if we had to be regaled with a song by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, it would have been about as much as flesh and blood could stand.

I, too, wish to refer to the specific article to which the hon. member for Pinelands has just referred. In my opinion it was a distasteful article because it referred in a derogatory way to a sincere effort being made to tackle the problem of the shortage of accommodation for our mentally ill. It was distasteful in other respects, too, in that, in many respects, it did not take account of the facts. It was aimed at being sensational and was presented in unpleasant terms. In the modern idiom we no longer talk of “millions out of madness”. This article begins like this—

At the present time we no longer refer to “mad” people; we do not use the expression “madness” or “insanity” any more with which this article abounds. There are much nicer terms to describe mental illness than talking about “mad people”. Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into all the unsavoury aspects of this article, but instead would like to refer to a few of them. For example, the payment to this company for the accommodation it provides to patients is referred to as an item “tucked away in the Estimates”. How does an amount appear on the Budget? It is itemized and I do not know how one can say that it is “tucked away”. Then, mention is made of the fact that there are no residential psychiatrists at these institutions and that no efforts are made to rehabilitate these people. Reference is made in derogatory terms to the fact that for the sake of the work therapy benefits to them, these patients are employed to work in the gardens and the grounds of these hospitals. What is wrong with that? It is an age-old principle that at all psychiatric institutions it is a very important aspect of therapy that these people must be kept busy, particularly in nature, and they are set to cultivate vegetables, flowers, etc. They do not do so for the sake of profit, but for the therapeutic aspect. “Patients are expected to feed and look after themselves”, is another quotation from this article. Then—and I find this particularly reprehensible—these institutions are referred to as follows—

I think that this is a scandalous remark by a person who has not even gone to the elementary trouble of ascertaining the true state of affairs. The fact is that the true picture is quite different to the one being painted here. One wonders whether this article is not connected with the campaign which the scientologists are waging against our psychiatrists. Then, too, I want to warn that we should take cognizance of these attacks and undermining of the psychiatric profession by this movement in particular, because if we allow confidence in our psychiatrists to be undermined, I can assure you that these unfortunate people, who benefit enormously from psychiatric treatment, will be right back in the Middle Ages, when people who were mentally disturbed were locked away behind closed doors. This discipline is doing much important work at a time when their work is becoming progressively more important owing to tension and pressure on human beings. I want to convey a warning that our people should not allow themselves to be misled in this way by scientologists.

To return to these institutions employed by the department to accommodate certain patients, I want to point out that at the moment, the situation is such that in these institutions in which the company provides accommodation to mentally disturbed persons, there are at present 640 Whites, 790 Coloureds and 8 666 Bantu. Let me say at once that not a single cent of State capital is spent on any of those institutions. These people are really providing a service. If private companies are allowed to establish private hospitals for the treatment of other complaints, then I see nothing wrong with the use of private institutions in the psychiatric sphere as well. It results in an enormous saving for the State, because otherwise this enormous number of patients would have had no care or would have had to be accommodated by the State at a very high capital cost. If one bears in mind that this service is provided at a tariff varying from about R1-22 per day to a maximum of R4-31 per day, one is really dumbfounded to see that this can be done under present circumstances. Let us understand each other fully in this regard. The service provided by these institutions is by no means an inferior one. The department provides psychiatric coverage—psychiatrists visit the institutions very regularly—as well as professional staff, although not as often as would be desirable because, as everyone knows, professional staff, particularly in the psychiatric discipline, are very scarce. Those who can be detailed to provide treatment for these patients, are detailed to visit these institutions. In addition, use is made of specially trained nursing assistants and others to assist with the care of the patients. What is important, is that the tariff in accordance with which these people are paid is not determined by the Department of Health.

The tariff is approved by the Treasury, which satisfies itself at the same time that these institutions do not make an excessive profit and that the rates are reasonable and fair. Last but not least, tenders are also invited for the accommodation of patients of this kind.

The patients in the institutions of these companies are for the most part long-term patients, old chronic cases or burnt-out cases, viz. people who have already suffered so much brain damage as to have virtually no chance of recovery. The unusual does occur, however, because over the past year 10% of the patients from these institutions were discharged in a condition enabling them to be accepted in a normal milieu by a normal community. This truly bears testimony to the quality of work performed in these institutions.

One very major complaint also quoted in this article is the fact that there are no beds for some of the Bantu patients and they have to sleep under blankets on mats on the floor. However, we must also take the background of these people into account. Many of the Bantu prefer to sleep on the ground because that is what they are used to. In many cases it is essential for these people to sleep on the floor because in the case of sufferers from epilepsy, for example, they could fall off the beds and seriously injure themselves. However, an effort is being made to eliminate this shortage. There will always be some of them who want to or have to sleep on the floor. However, more and more beds are being provided, and there are already 3 000 rubber mattresses available for these 8 000 patients, on which they can sleep if they find it necessary to do so. I found this article both shocking and reprehensible. One hopes that as much publicity will be given to the rectification of the facts as to the original article.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to agree with everything the hon. member for Cradock has said. I think those of us who have taken the trouble to look into the care which the Department of Health gives to those with mental illnesses will have only praise for what they are trying to do and what they hope to do.

I would like to continue where the hon. member for Fauresmith left off and briefly discuss some aspects of the department’s family planning programme. I would, first of all, like to congratulate the department.

I am pleased to see that they have doubled their budget since last year and I am pleased to see that they have now appointed a head of family planning services, which is a new post. I am pleased to see that they have introduced a new computer service to keep a better statistical record of people who attend clinics and those who fall away after completion of their treatment, and I am very pleased to see that Drs. McDonald and Neethling have been to South America and have been able to attend the world fertility conference. I think we have all been very encouraged to see that the department is attempting to establish a structure with which it can develop family planning in all its aspects. For that it is to be congratulated.

But if a man has a broken femur and a stove-in chest it does not help to treat him with Zambuk and Mercurochrome. In this country with its population explosion we are standing before a problem which is so colossal that it amazes me that the hon. member for Fauresmith can regard it as something which is being dealt with adequately. Our problem is so serious that it will indeed be in the nature of a national catastrophe if we do not deal with it swiftly. If you read Sadie’s statistics which were prepared for the IDC, you will find that he estimates that our population will reach 50¼ million by the year 2 000. This is always a conservative estimate and many people reckon that a more realistic estimate would be 60 million. That means that, while I am speaking for the 10 minutes during which I am allowed to have the attention of this very sparsely populated House, there are 11 babies being born in South Africa. When I resume my seat after my speech the 12 th will be struggling to be born.

Then keep standing.

Let us look at some more statistics. In terms of housing we are going to have an urbanization problem which will be unbelievable. By the year 2 000 there will be 3½ million Coloured people urbanized in the Western Cape alone. If our population growth continues at the present rate, we will have 6 million Coloured people who will have to be housed in the towns and cities in the Western Cape by the year 2 020. As far as our Black people are concerned, we will have 16 million of them in cities in the homelands and in South Africa by the year 2 000. When we think of the implications in terms of education, health services and the provision of facilities we realize that it is, indeed, awful. I would like to quote from Dr. A. P. Burger’s article. Dr. Burger is one of the vice-presidents of the CSIR He speaks about the mathematical model which they have developed for South Africa which deals with interrelationships and the ecology of development in South Africa. He writes as follows—

That is exactly what I want to do this afternoon.

Let us consider a few suggestions. The department has specified a certain programme in terms of which it wants to expose 50% of all women to family planning in South Africa. Mr. Chairman, with great respect, I suggest that that is completely unsuitable. As the South African Medical Journal reminded us last week, we must aim for Zero population growth if we are to get anywhere. We must not be told in this House that that cannot be done or that it can only be done in communist countries, because it has been done in Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, Malaysia and also in Communist China. If we do not do the same, we are heading for a catastrophe.

Fundamentally a family planning programme has two legs. Firstly it has a service leg providing clinic facilities, and that leg has to be in walking distance of every citizen in South Africa. Carnarvon must have an adequate family planning service, and not only Carnarvon but also the adjacent location. Hobhouse must have a decent family planning clinic. Every village must have one. Cofimvaba, Mahlabatini and Nongoma must have one. If we do not have these clinics in areas accessible to every citizen in South Africa, we shall never have an effective family planning programme. Secondly, there must be education and motivation. It is no good having just a vague awareness, desirable as that awareness is. This education must be given in a personal way. In this report we are told there is going to be one adviser to every 30 000 members of the population This is completely inadequate if we are to deal with the crisis which is developing in South Africa. We need many more advisers than that. We need a much better development programme. There must be jingles and decent films on the subject. We have a very dusty grey advert on family planning which appears on the screens in Cape Town Yet, just before that advertisement comes on, there is a superb advertisement advertising Smirnoff Vodka. Mr. Chairman, with great respect, we know that Smirnoff Vodka has a worse influence on our community than anything else. Yet here we are putting poor advertisements on when the liquor people can put good ones on. We know, of course, what Shakespeare said about wine. He said it is a great provoker of three things, Urine, sleep and lechery. If we are to counter the effects of advertisements like the one for Smirnoff Vodka, family planning must have much better ones.

I should like to know what else is going on. Our Progressive friends like to talk about problems of White/Black relationships in connection with family planning. I am pleased to say that Dr. Connie Mulder, when he was Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, repudiated his colleague, Mr. M. C. Botha, with his nonsense of having more babies. He made it quite clear that the policy of the South African Government is family planning for all race groups. Let us just talk to some of the verkramptes who may think that the Whites can catch up with the Blacks. If the White population is even to approach the non-White population in terms of population growth, every White woman between the ages of 19 and 45 will have to be permanently pregnant, but furthermore she will have to reduce her gestation period from nine months to three months. It is obviously ridiculous nonsense to carry on suggesting that Whites must have more children than non-Whites. What is more, Chief Mangope, Chief Matanzima and Chief Buthelezi are all on record as supporting family planning, and there are probably others. I believe that red tape must be cut. When I looked at this report and saw how many bodies are co-ordinated by the Department of Health, I was amazed. I believe we should have a Ministry of Family Planning to cut this red tape so that family planning can be given the priority it deserves. It should be on a par with Defence. I wonder what follow-up service there is in respect of those people who do not make use of family planning. We have just passed a very important law in this country dealing with abortions, but that legislation, strict though its provisions may be, has no meaning unless it is balanced by a very active and effective family planning programme. When we read this report in regard to one of the objects of family planning we find that it states—

One of the factors which militates against our Black people enjoying a decent socio-economic life is migratory labour. It is a curse and every superintendent of every mission hospital in the homelands will agree. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to react at length to the speech by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, except just to tell him that the picture is not quite as sombre as he sees it. For example, Dr. Gunning of the Netherlands, a world authority, points out that a country like the Sudan can be fed with only a tenth of the water of the Nile, but that the only problem is that such a scheme will only work when there are 150 million people. At present there are only 15 000 000 and they are far too few.

The hon. member rightly pointed out that in many instances, family planning has not entirely succeeded. There are certain countries such as China which he mentioned where the birth rate has been brought down from 50 per 1 000 to 10 per 1 000 and where it does work. In other words, this family planning can work and in certain circumstances it will definitely work. However, there are two other aspects to which I want to refer. In the first instance, whereas in the past we have relied on medical science and whereas we have made such progress with things like the pill and so on, it is highly probable that in the near future, medical science will discover even better methods, for example a pill that can be effective for two years. These things develop. One should not look at family planning solely from the point of view of the stage it has reached today. There are other aspects as well. We cannot treat the woman only; that is not logical. It is logical to treat the man as well. There will definitely be progress in this connection. As they say, Sir, the old saying remains true, viz. “It takes two to tango.” The other one must also be treated. I leave the matter at that. Mr. Chairman, allow me to draw the attention of the House, through you, to the fact that the expression “health” does not embrace merely the dispensing of pills and dramatic operations such as heart transplants and so on. As far as operations are concerned, I also just want to say that I do not want the House to be under a mistaken impression with reference to what was said by the hon. member for Newcastle. I know that there are farmers who steal cattle; I know that there are attorneys who embezzle trust funds, and I know that there are a few doctors who also do such things. However we must not risk generalization in cases which are only exceptions.

Basically, the concept of health embraces the human being, his internal milieu, and his environment, the external milieu. When there is something wrong with the internal or the external milieu, this has an effect on the human being and then one has a sick person. Therefore the task of this Department of Health and of health in general is the establishment of a healthy balance between a healthy person and a healthy environment. The old verity that prevention is better than cure becomes truer all the time because one cannot cure permanent damage and because the environment it shrinking. It is also true that environmental health or community health is playing a more and more important role in health as opposed to the lesser role played by the ordinary therapeutic practices such as operations and dispensing of pills. It is also striking that early in the Bible, in Genesis I, verses 27 to 29, we find it said that God made man and blessed him, and that he was given two specific instructions. The first was to multiply and replenish the earth and the other was to have dominion over the sea, over the fish of the sea, over the fowl of the air and over the living things of the earth, with specific reference to food. With reference to what the hon. member said, may I just mention here that in my opinion the instruction to “replenish the earth” is being taken a little too far at some places and that the instruction to “have dominion over the environment” it is perhaps not being adequately carried out Sir, I find it interesting that the numbers of any animal species in areas untouched by man—and man is one of 3 million animal species—is inversely proportionate to its size. We find, for example, that there are far more mosquitoes than elephants and that there are far more finches than ostriches. But man with his God-given soul also has a God-given intelligence, and that intelligence enables him to effect phenomenal developments in the technological and scientific sphere, and this gives him not only the right but also the ability to increase his numbers out of proportion to the original number of animal species in the world. But the important fact is that that right and that ability of man’s continues to be linked to the fact that he must carry out the second instruction in the Bible, viz. that he must have dominion over his environment.

Sir. I do not want to mention once the long series of numbers that have already been mentioned in this debate and in other debates such as the agricultural debate. We know that it took about 100 000 years up to the year 1 A.D. for there to be half a billion people on the earth; that it then took about 1 850 years for this number to increase to 1 billion; that from there the population doubled within a hundred years and that it is now going to double within 45 years. That is what we call exponential growth. Sir, perhaps I could just mention one example in this regard. Let us take as an example, a hall that can accommodate exactly 800 people standing upright next to each other. When one has exponential growth, then the one person one has in the hall doubles and becomes two; the two are doubled and become four; the four become eight, the eight become 16, etc., until, on the ninth exponential growth, the ninth doubling up, one will have 512 people in the hall. Then the hall is not much more than half full —and that is where the world is today— but the next time there is a doubling up there will be a catastrophe because that hall will no longer be able to accommodate that number of people. Sir, the world has reached the stage at which it can no longer carry a doubling of the present population. But, as I have said before, the picture is not quite so sombre because we can build a bigger hall and we can limit the exponential growth.

Mr. Chairman, I want to quote from a very well-written article written by Mr.Ronald Higgins and published in the Sunday Times. He wrote this article after a good deal of research and investigation. His article was entitled, “Is the world committing suicide?” This is what he says—

Then he states—

I must mention, Sir, that he wrote this article for England—

Sir, I mention these things in order to point out how important it is that we should stress that part of medicine which deals with the environment, because if there is something wrong in that regard, then this has an effect on man as well. Sir, the people in the world must help each other. We, for example, can assist Southern Africa. We can assist Southern Africa with food, but that is temporary assistance. The main type of assistance we can give Africa and Southern Africa is teaching them how to help themselves by means of our “know-how”; on the one hand, teaching them to suppress the population explosion there, and on the other, teaching them to develop their own resources as well.

Sir, I conclude with this one thought: With back-bench modesty, I think that a good case could possibly be made for a reconsideration of the set-up of this department. I personally feel that a case could be made for a Department of Health, Social Welfare and the Environment. I have not discussed social welfare now, but if we consider the amount of work done by the medical practitioners and those providing para-medical services in social welfare, then I think that these three departments ought to fall under a single department, or at least under one Minister. From the experience we have had in the past, and since we have again referred today to re-writing all these medical Acts, I just want to say that the Minister of Agriculture who knows nothing about farming is no good; the same goes for a Minister of Justice who knows nothing about Acts. I say, therefore, that the Minister of this department of departments should be a doctor.

Mr. Chairman, I have followed the remarks of the hon. member for Krugersdorp and I agree with much of what he has said. I now want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to give his urgent attention to a matter to which he has been somewhat indifferent when it has been raised in the past, and that is in regard to combating the spread of venereal disease. Sir, I hope to convince him this afternoon of the need for urgent action by giving him certain statistics which have been made available to me, and also a certain number of expert opinions. The Minister’s attitude, as I say, in the past has been one of some indifference. Last year when the matter was raised in a debate by the hon. member for Rosettenville, he asked the Minister to give some indication of his attitude, and the Minister’s reply was that we were always a little worried about venereal disease, but that this way a disease which was hidden behind so many cloaks. He then went on to discuss the problems, one of which was that it was not a notifiable disease. He also went on to say that we would have to make a renewed effort to try to stamp out this disease. His attitude, if I might summarize it, was; Firstly, that there was cause for some concern; secondly, that because it was not notifiable it was a difficult problem; and, thirdly, that something should be done about this disease. Sir, this session, in reply to questions, he has adopted a somewhat similar attitude, e.g. it will not really help if it is made a notifiable disease. I believe this is a completely wrong attitude. Positive action is long overdue. I do not have to dwell on the frightening results of this disease or on the mental and physical deformities that pass from one generation to another, but I will make mention of certain statistics and opinions of experts which have been made available to me. If the Minister wishes to know the source of this information, I am quite prepared to pass it on to him.

Sir, with the advent of penicillin, in the 1940s, the reported cases of venereal disease, as the hon. the Minister knows, decreased rapidly throughout the world. Attendance, for instance, at the Johannesburg clinics dropped from 96 000 in 1952 to only 24 000 in 1958. After the introduction of penicillin in eight clinics of Soweto also the incidence of syphilis dropped from 20 cases per 100 to as little as six per 100 in 1962. But the imported disease, which was coming into the country was the result of movements of persons from one country to another, has now seemed to develop according to the evidence of medical experts, an immunity to this kind of treatment, and added to that the introduction of oral contraceptives has resulted in an increasing number of venereal disease cases, particularly among the young people of South Africa. In South Africa in 1953 we had 19 venereologists on the South African medical register. Today there are only ten in this country. But in six South African cities, which comprise 20% of the population, the cases of syphilis and gonorrhoea reported have risen by 100% since 1960. As a country we are spending R½ million a year to care for syphilitic insane in our mental institutions. The figures which have been given and which have been checked, indicate that some 100 South Africans contract venereal disease every day. In 1973 some 35 000 cases of syphilis and gonorrhoea were treated in clinics in Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban. In the Cape Town clinic there were 1 000 new teenage cases in 1973, which are the latest figures available to me. Can we simply adopt the attitude of only being a little worried at this taking place? We seem to be content that there should be no official sex education in South African State schools. The public is indeed concerned. A recent survey by the Sunday Tribune showed that 90% of the people replying to the poll favoured wider sex education by trained health educators in our schools. When the Medical Association of South Africa published a really down to earth booklet on venereal disease in November 1973, the public’s reaction was so overwhelming that 150 000 copies were asked for and after that they have been distributing them at the rate of 2 500 a week. This is not a problem to be left to the voluntary response of people in general nor to the voluntary response of a person who has contracted the disease. We need planned education and I believe also that the disease should be certifiable. When it comes to the question of education, a professor of obstetrics and gynaecology has made the following comment—

A prominent civic medical officer has said that education is the only answer. Some years ago 30 young males were treated in a Johannesburg clinic or treatment centre in one day and all 30 were traced to one source of infection, which had not been notified because it is not notifiable. These are the harsh facts of the position in South Africa at the present time. I believe the hon. the Minister must give his attention to this scourge which is serious in this country. Firstly, he should introduce legislation to make these diseases notifiable so that the sources can be traced and eliminated as quickly as possible.

For all races?

Yes. Secondly, the Government should see to it that greater publicity is given to the availability of treatment centres. We know they exist, but the notices and the indications in public places that they exist and where they are situated are not as noticeable as they should be. The third point is that the hon. the Minister should use his power and his influence in the Cabinet to urge the introduction of appropriate sex education at schools. It has to be frank and direct education and the warning must be real. The young people at school, especially in these days of freedom of the youth, must be left under no misapprehension about the scourge of this disease and what it could mean to them and their families and to the generations following them if this disease is contracted and not adequately dealt with at an early stage. I hope the hon. the Minister will give attention to this particular problem in this country because it is reaching epidemic proportions.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Green Point touched on a very interesting and important subject. However, I do not want to follow up on his arguments.

I cannot but come back to the arguments raised by the hon. member for Pine-town. The hon. member spoke with great emotion—and I emphasize “with great emotion”—about family planning. We had a very interesting survey of everything the department had done in regard to family planning and how far they had already progressed. I want to tell the hon. member for Pinetown that family planning in our country with its particular ethnic composition is a matter that must never be handled emotionally. It is a matter that must be dealt with the greatest circumspection. For many years—I think the hon. member for Green Point, who has also been concerned with health services, will agree with me— family planning has been considered and discussed. However, progress could not be made. It is only since this department has been tackling this matter in a very careful way, the way that is being adopted now, that real progress has been made. The hon. member must remember that we are dealing with peoples here among whom traditions and customs play an extremely important role. Through incautious handling of family planning, a totally distorted image can be created among people among whom educational work has to be done so as to persuade them to undertake family planning. A speech of this kind does a great deal of harm to a very major and important matter, when delivered as emotionally as the hon. member for Pine-town delivered his speech.

What about M. C. Botha’s utterances?

I want to make the statement that health services in South Africa maintain a very high standard, probably equal to the standard of such services in any other civilized country. Our standards in South Africa are undoubtedly the highest in Africa. In addition. South Africa provides a very effective health service. The health service provided in South Africa is provided over a very broad spectrum. It is this very broad spectrum to which I want to refer and about which I want to express a few ideas. I do not know whether all of us are aware how many bodies in South Africa are concerned with health services or provide health services directly. On a list I have before me there are no fewer than 20 different bodies in South Africa which provide health services or are very intimately concerned with these services. I am only going to mention a few of them, because I cannot read all of them here. For example there are the provincial administrations that provide comprehensive general and specialized hospitalization, clinical and therapeutic services. Then too there is the Department of Health. Local authorities, too, provide hospitalization in regard to infectious diseases, provide general and preventative health services and have clinics and sanatoriums. Divisional councils in the Cape Province provide general and preventative health services and also administer general hospitalization. Then, too, there is the Department of Mines, the Natal Health Commission, the Department of Defence and the Department of Labour who contribute their share as well. Then there are organizations that provide emergency services, e.g. the S.A. Noodhulpliga, the St. John’s Ambulance Brigade and the Red Cross Association. We know that the Red Cross Association in particular has a number of hospitals at which services are provided. I could continue in this vein, but suffice it to say that there are 20 such organizations. Apart from these 20 organizations providing health services, we also have research in regard to the manufacture of medicine and general medical research undertaken by various bodies. However, what I want to refer to is the fact that there is very little co-ordination between these various bodies providing the health services. We know that there is, in fact, a degree of co-ordination between the Department of Health and provincial authorities, and also, to a certain extent, between provincial authorities and local authorities, but among the vast majority there is virtually no co-ordination of services in South Africa.

Now one could ask this question: If there are so many bodies concerned with the provision of health services in a country, and there is a lack of co-ordination, will we in fact be providing the most effective service possible with the available manpower at the disposal of these different services? It goes without saying that if there is no co-ordination, duplication of services must occur in many respects. When we have duplication of services, it goes without saying that we must have a duplication of facilities. We have excessive use of medical, para-medical and all other staff concerned with the provision of health services. However, what is also very important is the fact that when there is no co-ordination, there cannot be proper planning in regard to our health services either.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the time has not come, particularly if we bear in mind the progress we have already made in the sphere of health services in South Africa, for us to take a penetrating look at the services rendered by various bodies so that we may have co-ordination, because once we begin to have co-ordination, then we shall achieve the final and also the desirable step in South Africa, viz. an integration of services. We shall realize what a saving this will bring about in South Africa and what efficient services we shall provide with the manpower at our disposal when we have reached that stage. It goes without saying that if we want to provide integrated services in South Africa, we shall have to have a central health policy in South Africa. In my opinion, the time has come for very serious consideration to be given, in the first place, to a central health policy and for us to investigate in depth the services provided by the various bodies in South Africa. When this is done we can make our services even more efficient.

It goes without saying, too, that planning suffers as a result of this and that a further step will have to be taken. We have the report of the De Villiers Commission on private hospitals. It is interesting that the provincial hospitals do in fact fall under the provinces, but I think there is only one province whose ordinance provides that the province can approve or turn down the construction of a private hospital. In the other provinces, certain conditions are set for the construction of private hospitals, and if those conditions are complied with, such hospitals may be built. It goes without saying that this results in a further hampering of the planning of hospital services. That is why, together with my request that we have a central health policy in South Africa, I want to ask that the hon. the Minister give earnest attention at this stage to the recommendations of the De Villiers Commission in regard to the establishment of private hospitals so that the planning we shall have to carry out in the future in regard to the co-ordination of services will not be hampered further.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rosettenville mentioned the fact that we attended the same university. That is correct; he is an old “gabber” of mine. He understands that word and I think here are few members who will understand that word, but it is so that, as far as friends are concerned, he remains a “gabber” of mine. I want to say to the hon. member for Rosettenville that when one has passed through that university, the University of the Witwatersrand, and emerged on the other side with the right attitude, one has the right attitude all one’s life. Politically I want to dissociate myself completely from my alma mater, but as far as my training is concerned, the hon. member is quite correct in saying that it is a very good training university as far as medicine and dentistry are concerned. The hon. member for Rosettenville mentioned the powers which are being taken away from mission hospitals. I often deal with mission hospitals owing to the nature of my constituency and the fact that my town is situated adjacent to a Bantu homeland. I have never regarded being situated adjacent to a Bantu homeland as being dangerous. On the contrary, I regard it as an enormous challenge to be of assistance as regards the self-determination of another people.

We agree.

Please, that youngster must keep quiet today; I am talking to grown-ups.

But he is agreeing with you!

Yes, even if he agrees. The George Stegman Hospital is a D. R. mission hospital and has no objection to the so-called take-over by the State. It is a hospital in which that which is accomplished is praiseworthy. If one were to lock at the way they treat tuberculosis, and all sorts of other treatment which is given at the hospital, it is a show window of what can be done by the agent, namely the Department of Health. I doubt whether there is any problem with the development in our homelands as far as hospital services are concerned or as to whether we shall be able to be of assistance to them in the development of the health services in their own country up to and including independence—and may be after that as well There the hon. member for Rosettenville and I differ as far as Baragwanath is concerned. Baragwanath is in a White area. We must give the homelands this opportunity. We must give Ga Rankuwa, which forms part of a Bantu homeland, the opportunity, with the assistance of the Whites. It is so that we in South Africa have been consistent throughout the years in the steps we have taken as a good guardian and in being of assistance in the process of evolution and education and in offering opportunities to the non-White peoples of South Africa. Would it not be a wonderful achievement the day when Ga Rankuwa’s medical faculty, dental faculty and faculty of veterinary science can be manned by their own people? This is our objective and this is the direction in which we are moving, and it remains my conviction that the Department of Health will play a special role in the development of the medical and dental school.

†The hon. member for Berea had a lot to say about dentistry and I would like to say to him that I agree with a lot of the things that he said. I would like to state it very categorically that in South Africa I think we ought to feel very proud of the dental profession, in this sense that you have 1 800 dentists serving over 20 million people.

I agree with you.

Of the 1800 dentists 70% are in private practice. Only 15% of the population today receive dental treatment. Under these circumstances, the dental profession is under a terrific strain and stress to render the necessary services. We must accept that they have terrific problems in rendering this professional service.

*I feel the time has arrived when it is essential for us to take cognizance of the fact that public dental services in the Republic of South Africa are inadequate. We make no secret of this. In other sectors of the medical world hon. members experience—as the hon. member for Bloemfontein East said—a lack of co-ordination as regards the services rendered by the provinces, the services rendered by local authorities and the services rendered by the central authorities. I want to ask the hon. the Minister very politely how much progress has been made in drawing up a national dental policy. I think it is a mater of urgency for us to have a national dental policy in South Africa in order to meet many of the problems we have to contend with today. In South Africa, which has a tremendously large population, it remains my conviction that the dentists have to use their time to the full to do work which really ought not to be necessary. If we could pay more attention to preventive services, I believe it would not be so essential for dentists to occupy themselves so incessantly with the provision of other services.

†I think of services such as extractions, the conservation and filling of teeth, etc. I think that in the years gone by the profession has not received the attention it should have received. I am convinced that the loss of manpower, expressed in hours, due to dental problems and toothache is enormous. They say that there is no worse pain in the world than toothache, except perhaps the pain suffered by people who are members of the party on the other side of the House I believe toothache is one of the cruellest pains that there are.

It is a privilege to be a member of this party, not a pain.

Why are your expressions then always so painful? As I say, I am convinced that the lack of mouth hygiene and mouth care lead to a lot of hours of manpower being lost.

*I should like to suggest that when television starts functioning, programmes will be organized to make preventive dentistry interesting to the youth in an attempt to see what can be done preventively for the protection of teeth. That mouth hygiene can Play a very important role should not be illustrated by means of cheap advertisements, but by means of demonstrations to the youth and to the population in general. If we were to follow this up, I remain convinced of the fact that the work of the dentist in South Africa will be reduced considerably as far as restoration is concerned.

I should also like to address a plea to my colleagues. I have been out of practice since 1966, but I still find it a pleasant task to extract the teeth of the United Party members in this House. There is a tendency in my profession to contract out of the medical aid schemes—I know the hon. member for Fauresmith does not like the terms “contract out” and “contract in” —and I want to request my colleagues not to contract out. I believe that by means of the hon. the Minister’s Medical Aid Schemes Amendment Bill a solution has largely been found to the problems with which the profession has had to contend and that the profession as such, especially under these circumstances of an acute shortage of dentists, should not create the impression to people outside that they are contracting out in order to earn more than they would if they were to contract in. I know they have problems, for instance with dental mechanicians but it is due to the fact that the tariffs of the dental mechanicians are determined by the Industrial Conciliation Board. It is therefore a real problem which can be met. With the assistance of the commission which determines tariffs, this problem can be met. Therefore I want to address a friendly yet urgent request in this House to my practising colleagues not to contract out, but to co-operate in making a resounding success of these medical aid schemes in South Africa in the interests of the future of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, naturally all of us here are interested in the health and welfare of our country and that is why this debate is being conducted on such a sombre and serious note. I am in full agreement with what the hon. member for Bloemfontein East had to say about the 20 or so bodies connected with the Government, the provinces and the local authorities and about the voluntary bodies serving South Africa. It is a good thing that we should have voluntary bodies because, after all, there is that spirit of vocation and people want to help their fellow-men. It has always been a source of wonder to me why there should always have been this chronic shortage of doctors, dentists and nurses. One can run through the gamut of the entire medical profession. There is a chronic shortage throughout and this makes the position very serious. Last week we had the privilege of being shown around the Majestic Hotel, Kalk Bay, and at Valkenberg where we saw the excellent work that the department is doing. As far as the Majestic Hotel is concerned I may perhaps have looked at it from the point of view from which I looked at hotels when I was still in the Police Force. I could give the Secretary for Health one or two tips in regard to improvements to the building in relation to fire-proofing, proper drainage and that sort of thing. I shall give him my advice free of charge.

We hope that anybody who takes up medicine as a career does so as a vocation. This is a profession which calls for dedication, patience, self-sacrifice and skill. It therefore behoves all of us, whether we are doctors or tradesmen or politicians or farmers, to encourage any young person to study for whichever branch of the medical profession they have the aptitude to study for. We must not leave it to the department to do this work on its own. However, at the same time, one would expect the department to embark on a planned, systematic and I would say dramatically imaginative campaign of recruitment for the medical profession and not just leave it to the young person going to the university to make up his or her mind that he or she is going to study for the medical profession. We should start motivating our children when they are young so that when they matriculate they will already have decided to study medicine in one form or another. I think that the department could be of great assistance in this regard.

I also want to discuss the shortage of medical staff. Some time ago the hon. the Minister informed this House—I think it was in February of this year—that there was a shortage of 85 full-time district surgeons and 54 part-time district surgeons. This gives us a total of 139. This is a very serious shortage when one considers that according to the annual report there are 136 full-time district surgeons and 347 part-time district surgeons. This gives us a total of 483. The shortage of 139 district surgeons out of a possible total of 483 gives us a percentage shortage of 28%, and this is very high. However, a total of 483 district surgeons out of a population of some 20 million people is to my mind ridiculously low and I would say that the position has reached dangerous proportions. We should do everything in our power to get men to join this service and to serve not only as district surgeons but also in the other branches of the department as psychiatrists, etc. The district surgeon may perhaps not be such a prominent figure in the city, but I can assure hon. members that in the country towns where a lot of us grew up the district surgeon— who incidentally was part-time—was a very respected, loved and revered figure. He was capable. He brought many of our brothers and sisters into the world and he knew us inside out. He played an important part in the town. I picked up a Government Gazette at random today dated 21 March in order to see what salaries are paid to these part-time district surgeons. In a large town like Alberton his salary is R7 200 a year and his medicine allowance is on contract. The part-time district surgeon at Blijderivier only gets R1 320 plus a medicine allowance of R720. The best-paid of the part-time district surgeons is the one at Middelburg, Transvaal, who gets R24 000. I see that the one at Empangeni in Natal gets R15 000. But there are numbers of part-time district surgeons here who get between R3 000 and R7 000. In spite of the fact that they are supposed to be part-time district surgeons, I say that this is a niggardly salary to pay to a professional man, having regard to his qualifications and having regard to the work that he does. Sir, it must be remembered that a district surgeon is called out day and night and that he is at the beck and call of every soul in the district. The annual report quite rightly refers to the wide scope of the duties of district surgeons, and since the department acknowledges the work done by district surgeons, their salaries should be adjusted accordingly. The annual report says—

It then goes on to say—

Sir, that is quite correct. These men are overworked. I know that from my own experience and observations. I have seen how these doctors work, particularly the district surgeons, and I know what complaints are made because of the shortage, when they have to attend to policemen and their wives. Sir, these men are being called out at all hours, and it is only right that the burden which they carry should be lifted somehow. I know that the Minister is going to say that they can bring in a private doctor sometimes but that does not always work and it is not always easy to do so. It is my honest opinion that if we were to pay these men the salaries that they should be paid—and here I refer to both part-time and full-time district surgeons—we would solve this problem and we would then get men and women who are dedicated and who would regard their job as a vocation and not as a money-making concern.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the appeal made by the hon. member for Umlazi that the manpower shortage in the sphere of medicine be made good. If one wants to form any kind of image of the state of health care in South Africa, and if one peruses the annual report of the Department of Health, then it is very clear that health care in South Africa enjoys high priority under this Government. This afternoon I want to confine myself to the role played by the department in certain aspects of preventative medicine in South Africa. In this regard I want to refer to the effective handling of outbreaks such as the gastric fever epidemic at Mamre in May 1974 and the outbreak of cholera on the Witwatersrand, as well as the recent so-called Marburg virus contracted here in South Africa by two Australian students, about which the hon. the Minister made a full statement in this House earlier this year. Sir, if we consider the appalling catastrophe that would have faced South Africa if this dangerous virus were to have reached epidemic proportions, then it is only right that we as South Africans express our praise and sense of gratitude to the Department of Health and all those who aided it, such as the Centre of Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia, in the USA, the London Hospital for Tropical Diseases, other medical practitioners in foreign countries, the Johannesburg Local Health Service and the Transvaal Provincial Hospital Service, the South African Medical Research Institute and the Poliomyelitis Research Institute. I say that it is only right that the public of South Africa should express their praise and sense of gratitude for the teamwork carried out by these bodies to maintain the high standard of health in South Africa. Perhaps this episode, which took place on South African soil, came to us as a timely warning of the extreme dangers which virus diseases can entail for us in this country.

It is a fact that a correct diagnosis of a virus infection on clinical grounds is very difficult for a medical practitioner. Most people start with headache and fever and soreness of the body as in the case of ordinary influenza, and an accurate diagnosis of a disease of this kind without the assistance of specialized laboratory facilities is virtually impossible. Furthermore, these viruses are also capable of changing their characteristics, their nature. We then find that a very innocent virus can change and become a highly dangerous virus capable of sowing death and destruction.

In fact, we in South Africa had the tragic experience of seeing how a treacherous disease like poliomyelitis sowed death and destruction among our children in the early ’fifties. Fortunately, we in this country also had the positive experience of seeing how a body like the Foundation for Poliomyelitis Research carried out pioneering work in this regard, to such an extent that for all practical purposes, poliomyelitis is no longer regarded as a danger. But what happened then was that the public lapsed into complacency and omitted to comply with the basic immunization procedures. We then found that there was a resultant increase in the incidence of this disease. In 1971, 460 cases were notified. In 1972 this figure rose to 842 cases and in 1973, it reverted again to 206 notified cases. However, it is necessary to warn that the figure for 1973 has already reached the 493 mark once again. In addition, one should mention that the poliomyelitis vaccines are very effective. In passing it must also be mentioned that this vaccine is made available at no cost to all the local authorities in this country and in these circumstances I think it is a crime that the Public do not afford that form of protection to the children of this people.

However, I want to come back to the so-called arbor viruses, of which the polio and Marburg viruses are examples. It is true that this virus, which caused the recent episode, apparently came from Africa. It is also true that at the moment, South Africa’s political relations with other African countries are more relaxed. As a result, interstate tourist traffic could possibly increase, and co-operation in the medical sphere could also increase, and it could be required of South Africa to take the lead in this sphere as well. In view of this, one would like to ask the hon. the Minister whether it has not become necessary to develop and improve the existing research facilities still further with more sophisticated facilities such as those at centres like the Centre of Disease Control in the USA. After all, we in this country already have the necessary infrastructure. I say this without derogating from the work that is really of international quality which has already been done in this country. For example, I want to quote from an article that appeared in the Lancet, which is a world-famous and internationally acknowledged medical periodical. The article appeared in the 29 March 1975 edition in connection with this Marburg virus episode—

I do not doubt that if we were prepared to make the financial sacrifices we do possess the human scientific material to enable us not only to maintain our leading position in Africa but also, in fact, to take part in international co-operation on this level together with the great powers. We must bear in mind that when disease and human suffering strike a country, they enjoy a higher priority than political disputes or ideologies. In this way, therefore, we are not only better able to protect what is ours, but can also prove our goodwill to Africa and the rest of the world. This could give rise to a valuable and sound mutual attitude.

In conclusion, I want to point out that according to the Department’s report last year, the arbor virus unit of the S.A. Foundation for Poliomyelitis Research was able to identify a fever epidemic in South Africa in the autumn of 1974. Thousands of people fell ill with fever and a rash. These viruses were then identified by this unit as the West Nile and Sindbis virus carried from birds through mosquitoes to people. Furthermore, South Africa was able to provide immunization material to a large number of countries, including Rhodesia, Swaziland, Malawi, Moçambique, the United Kingdom, Israel, etc. It is therefore clear that a great deal has been done in this regard in South Africa, but I do want to plead that we do not lapse into complacency, and rest on our laurels. We must provide our scientists with these facilities to enable them to use their knowledge and ingenuity to the benefit of the South Africa of the future.

Mr. Chairman, at the outset I should like to thank hon. members very sincerely for the interesting debate which has been conducted here this afternoon. My friend, the hon. member for Rosettenville, became a little hot under the collar at the outset of his speech, and I think he raised something which could easily lead to this discussion losing its impartial and non-political character. I want to warn the hon. member that he should be careful as far as this matter is concerned. Nevertheless, I do not want to detract from the fact that he raised an important matter, seen from his point of view.

In the first place, I want to say something which I feel should have been said. Although we sometimes, in the past, had to wait two or three years for annual reports, the departmental officials—and I want to thank them for this now—have during the past 18 months succeeded in making up a leeway of four reports, so that hon. members were today able to read a report here which was completely up to date. I want to express my thanks to them for the particularly hard work this required, and for the fact that they kept their promises to me to have this report on my table at the beginning of April this year. I think it is time we mentioned things like this. Although hon. members have frequently admitted this by implication by referring to it every now and again, something which last happened years ago, I felt that I should say it directly.

†I now want to deal with what the hon. member for Rosettenville said about mission hospitals. I do not want to be drawn into an argument on a matter which does not really fall within the purview of my functions. While I do not like to pass the buck, I must say that this is a policy decision which had to be made by Department of Bantu Administration and Development. It is not for me to enter into an argument on whether that policy decision was the right one or not. I may agree with some things while we can talk about the others, but I think it is perhaps better for the hon. member and for myself, when a matter like this crops up, to discuss it outside the House and not here, because it may embarrass both of us. The policy as such does not concern me really. I am only acting as an agent for the department who decides on these matters. But I have been given to understand that some of the homeland leaders did submit requests for this change to be made. Some homeland leaders requested the Department of Bantu Administration to take over these mission hospitals. As the agent, I can only assure the hon. member that we will do our best and make the most of it. In any case, it is not just a question of condemning this action from the outset, because there are good reasons for taking over these mission hospitals. I do not want to discuss them in detail, but I think we will eventually find that it was the right move at the right time.

*I come now to the hon. member for Fauresmith, who introduced a very interesting discussion on family planning. Family planning was also raised by quite a number of the other speakers. This is a very important matter, and I am very pleased that the hon. member did not conjure up the spectre of population figures again, because we must be careful on that score. The more dynamic one becomes in one’s approach to population figures and the inundation by numbers, the more one’s motives are regarded with suspicion. As far as this matter is concerned, one simply has to do one’s work and persuade the person that it is in his own welfare and that of his family. One should also be able to convince him that he is able, in that way, to contribute to his own economic welfare, in a general sense to the welfare of the community as well, and in an even more general sense to the welfare of his country and the world. However, let us not discuss this matter on a group basis by referring to a specific race or nation which is allegedly increasing in numbers to such a considerable extent and in that way creating a danger. I am afraid that this matter is a very delicate one, and for that reason we should always deal with it with the correct degree of circumspection. In this regard we are receiving excellent co-operation, and I do not want to go into our programme again now. The programme has already been explained to hon. members, and our objects were set out in it. I do not think that we are called upon at this stage to accord a much higher priority to this matter than we have already done, without harming in some way or other what we are envisaging. I am therefore very pleased that the hon. member for Fauresmith approached this matter in such a judicious and well-balanced manner. Co-operation forms the basis of the success of the family planning programme. With this programme we have only reached the take-off phase. When one comes to the take-off, one must ensure that the engine does not stall and cut out. I just want to add to this that the integrated co-operation on the part of the department, which drew up this planning structure, extends to the provinces, the private medical practitioners and even to the homelands, from whom we are also receiving co-operation. But we must not embarrass the homeland leaders. This is not necessary, because these people are co-operating, and it is also necessary for them to persuade their people to co-operate with them. We are reaching a stage throughout where we can see the results of our hard work over the past three years to place the matter of family planning on a firm foundation. Hon. members may refer to the figures, and they will then see that whereas, a few years ago, we had an attendance at the clinics of approximately 289 000 women, this figure has now grown to almost 500 000 per annum. Hon. members will also see that whereas, five or six years ago, we budgeted for R250 000, we are now budgeting for R2,5 million—ten times more. With any programme one can proceed only as rapidly as one’s manpower permits, but it is also necessary that people accept this programme. If one wants to move too rapidly, one can, as I have already stated, actually defeat the object one wishes to achieve. So much, then, for family planning, and I think that I have with this also replied to the points raised by the hon. member for Pinetown.

†The hon. member for Berea raised the question of the large increase from R159 000 to R479 000 in respect of the item “Health publicity and educative work” under sub-head E—“Miscellaneous Expenses”. At the beginning of his speech he pleaded specifically that I should be more generous with the South African Cancer Association. I must tell him that we have earmarked a considerable amount for educative work in the health field. Last year we realized that enough had not been done and therefore it was decided to seek additional funds. This larger amount will be spent in a very balanced manner, but it will be particularly allocated to matters such as family planning, dentistry, psychiatric educative work, the department’s image as a whole and the provision of specific information to doctors and dentists in respect of medicines registered with the Medicine Control Board. This item therefore covers a wide range, but I think it will be money well spent. The hon. member also spoke about the hazards of tobacco addiction. Educative work will also be undertaken in this regard notwithstanding the fact that people in our country may differ on the whole issue of tobacco and nicotine poisoning. I can assure the hon. member that there is a very close liaison between the South African Cancer Association and the department and the department will be able to make a contribution in so far as the association’s requirements are concerned. I think that our contribution will meet the requirements as set out by the hon. member and I do not anticipate trouble in that connection.

The hon. member also spoke about dental services. It is quite correct that as far as dental services are concerned there is even today a sad lack of co-ordination. There is also a sad lack of control. The Schumann and Borckenhagen Commissions took note of this state of affairs and they expressed the opinion that there should be central control. I can inform the hon. member that some of the recommendations of those commissions have already been implemented and at the moment I am giving my personal attention to a national dental scheme in terms of which my department will exercise central control. We have already prepared a comprehensive plan in this connection which is receiving the attention of the Cabinet and perhaps this will also be in the take-off stage before the end of the year. This is as far as I can commit myself on dental matters.

*The hon. member for Rustenburg also raised this matter, and I am glad he did so. I think this is an extremely important matter in view of the poor co-ordination and poor control which existed, as well as the piecemeal way in which many bodies are providing dental services to our schools and public. Of course there is also the tremendous shortage of dental services for our non-White population groups. These are are all matters which have required our attention during the past year. As far as this is concerned, positive attention is now being given to the matter, and I can announce that we are engaged at present working on a national dental health service pian, which has already been drawn up, one which will be centrally inspired and controlled by the Department of Health. I expect to make an, announcement in this regard later this year.

†The hon. member also mentioned the question of the registration of foreign doctors, especially Indian dentists. We started a new faculty of dentistry at the University of the Western Cape to alleviate the shortage of non-White dentists as far as possible. At the moment there are approximately ten Coloured and ten Indian students, in their second and third years respectively. So, we are at least making a little progress in this respect. There has also been a relaxation on foreign Indian doctors, but that matter falls under the S.A. Medical Council. We must try to raise our standards rather than to lower them. The question of standards is one that comes into the picture.

*The hon. member for Newcastle also presented an interesting argument dealing with our profession and health care in general. I really cannot say anything further about this, without also presenting an argument. Therefore I merely want to say that I hope thorough cognizance will be taken of what he said here.

The hon. member for Pinelands discussed family planning. (I definitely agree with certain aspects he mentioned. With what he had to say about psychiatry and the overcrowding of psychiatric hospitals and institutions I can also agree. We have to accept that there is overcrowding in our psychiatric institutions, but no one can point a finger at the Department of Health and say that the department and its staff is not doing its utmost to ensure that the most is made of the new approach and treatment which has evolved in this direction. This is a matter which has, for many years, been regarded in a certain sense as the Cinderella of health care, something for which I do not want to blame anyone. Prior to 1944 psychiatric services fell under the Department of the Interior. Our people have always thought of this as “insanity”.

†They spoke about insanity and lunatic asylums, hut we do not speak like that any more. In 1975 we do not speak of insanity any more. We speak rather of mental illness and of mental health care. In other words, we turn to the more positive aspects of the new era.

*The hon. member also said that there had not yet been a denial of what had been stated in that unsavoury article in a certain Sunday newspaper, a matter which the hon. member for Cradock dealt with very effectively. A denial has been issued, after the Secretary for Health had ascertained how much truth there was in that article. It had been wrested quite out of context, and no credit had been given for what has been done. One gains the impression that someone, somewhere inspired this person to make allegations of that kind.

†If the hon. member were intent on finding out the truth he could have decided for himself after personal inspection. I was a little bit disappointed that the hon. member did not visit Valkenberg and the Majestic Hotel institution at Kalk Bay last week. Those hon. members who did visit those places could see for themselves where the mistakes and probable limitations are and at the same time they would have appreciated what has been done and what is being done with the limited resources and facilities at our disposal.

*I do not want to dig any deeper into this now. I have already replied to the matter of family planning. The hon. member also discussed the question of more non-White medical practitioners. The hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has already replied to this question as far as Ga Rankuwa is concerned. The problem is not really to find sufficient medical students, but the fact that medical faculties cost an enormous amount of money, and that we already have six. Therefore we should rather expand the existing facilities. In respect of the non-White population groups, which are not well provided for as far as this matter is concerned, I am not altogether certain that they always receive their fair share as far as admission to White universities is concerned. They are able to obtain admission with the Minister’s consent, and I simply grant consent automatically, because we have such a tremendous need for them. However, I can also mention that apart from the faculty of dentistry which has already been started at the University of the Western Cape, we have already made progress with the planning in regard to a medical school for the University of the Western Cape. Therefore there is a programme of action which will definitely be of great benefit to these population groups as far as these services are concerned.

†The department is in agreement that we need more para-medical services. I am not completely in agreement as far as the idea of medical auxiliaries are concerned, because the hon. member did not specify what he meant by that. We are dead against the second-class doctor-type of thing. We are for a policy where you can train nurses to do the duties which they are fit to do and capable of doing so that the doctor does not have to stand in for actions or services for which he is not really trained. In that connection we can do a lot. In fact, as far as para-medical services are concerned, people like occupational therapists, physiotherapists and these people, we have embarked on a scheme to train a great number of these people. We have started by training dental therapists. On the medical side, the South African Medical Council embarked on training anaesthetic assistants. These people will be under full control of qualified anaesthetists. It is definitely not a question of second-class doctors.

*That is what I want to say as far as the hon. member for Pinelands is concerned. I am very pleased the hon. member for Cradock sounded a warning note in regard to an attempt which is being made to bring the psychiatric profession and services into disfavour. This profession is at this stage finding matters extremely difficult as far as facilities, manpower and to a certain extent resistance from various quarters are concerned in rendering services which hon. members on the opposite side need not criticize and may with, justification criticize at present. This is a profession the practitioner of which first has to become a doctor before he can become a psychiatrist, and has to undergo at least twelve years of intensive scientific study. Nevertheless it is a profession which is today, with little manpower, rendering a tremendous task to the 31 000 people in our country whose intellects are not completely normal. I want to object most strongly, not only to the scandalous allegations, but also to this calculated behaviour on the part of people and groups of people, and people who under the cloak of religion try to influence our members of the House of Assembly and Senators to ask questions on this matter in this House and in the Other Place. I am pleased, Sir, that our members of the House of Assembly, the leaders of our people in Parliament, and our Senators, with very infrequent exceptions, do not allow themselves to be used by these people. Sir, when I refer to infrequent exceptions, I am not including the hon. member for Pinelands, because I think he asked his questions out of real interest. Nor did he take sides as far as this article was concerned. Therefore, I do not take it amiss of him for having asked questions in regard to this matter, yet I know of other cases in regard to which I think I have reasonable grounds for my suspicions. We should not allow ourselves to be used by these people. I am pleased that the hon. member for Cradock put the entire matter of rented beds into perspective. We have had agreements with these people for many years. They render the service and receive their fees. The fees are of course determined in accordance with the particular service they are rendering. It also depends on the type of building. But tenders are called for. The conditions under which these people provide beds are so favourable that they are able to give the patients treatment which is better than the treatment which we ourselves can provide, as far as facilities, etc., are concerned. Sir, what should we do now, since we are so far behind? I just want to say that the department has not allowed the grass to grow under its feet as far as psychiatric services are concerned. The Cabinet decided 18 months ago on an expenditure of R100 million in an attempt to eliminate the tremendous backlog in psychiatric buildings, some of which are almost 100 years old. We are already making progress; we have already made a start, but what should we do in the meantime? If hon. members cannot provide me with a reply in this regard, then I say that we should continue to do what we are doing today. My officials inspect these places regularly and reports are made to me. If all these abuses which are being complained about did in fact take place, they would have come to our attention. But if there are bona fide complaints, these people have every right to come and see what is going on in these institutions. I am very pleased that some hon. members availed themselves of the opportunity to take a look at some of our institutions, which are in any case inspected regularly. I want to thank the hon. member for Cradock very sincerely for his contribution.

†Sir, I have already replied to the hon. member for Pinetown. But as far as zero population growth is concerned, the hon. member must surely be aware of the fact that we are supposedly a Christian people. The countries with which the hon. member compared South Africa are all countries with homogeneous populations, not heterogeneous populations such as we have in this country.

*One cannot compare the position in South Africa with the position in a country in the Far East which has a homogeneous population, a population which is not Christian, and which is not always governed in a democratic way. I found it interesting that the hon. member only used countries in the Far East as examples. This matter cannot be resolved all that easily. I have already said, at the outset, that we should not gaze at the stars now but should at least try, first, to arrive at our destination on earth in the vehicle which we have at our disposal, before we acquire a mooncraft. We must always regard family planning as a facet of community health. Family planning should not be compartmentalized; it should not have political motives. There is one thing I wish to emphasize to the hon. member for Pinelands again.

†There are no political motives and there should not be, even if there are. I am not going to stand for any political motives behind it. I want to do it scientifically and it must be scientifically and economically motivated. Those are the factors that really count. That is why we are all ad idem as far as the necessity for family planning is concerned. But it is not population control. Please let us remember that. I do not want the idea of population control to become an idea that gets ingrained in the minds of people because then you get prejudices and it is very difficult to overcome those prejudices.

*We have really come a long way in our efforts to try to persuade people in a sensible and balanced manner that this is imperative. And now I may as well say here that of our homeland leaders there are quite a number who are co-operating splendidly. But is it fair now to cry out their names from the rooftops? Surely they are also dealing with populations which are lagging far behind economically, and which have an enormous number of old prejudices and old customs. Surely one should have respect for that. At the same time we realize the danger of too many children and of a completely uncontrolled population increase. But we are receiving co-operation. However, we should not become too dynamic for the sake of headlines or because some country or other has achieved great success, particularly with regard to this or that group, for if we cause that idea to take root, we are cutting our own throats as far as this matter is concerned.

†The hon. member for Green Point raised the matter of venereal disease. I agree with him. It is a very important matter. It has been one of the real scourges of the past. To a certain extent it does not create the same fear in the minds of people because there are anti-biotics. But at the same time I also want to stress the fact that I am not indifferent to it. We are convinced that education is the key to the solution of this problem. If there is to be a solution at all education will be the key to it, but we have our troubles with sex education in schools.

Call it health education.

Yes, call it health education but you have just heard that I have allocated an amount two and a half times the amount allocated before. We must not be too vociferous about matters like that. I think we should rather let that matter rest for the time being but I can assure the hon. member that as far as venereal disease is concerned, we are not indifferent to it. In regard to the notification of venereal disease, that is a very tricky matter. We have found in foreign countries that as soon as they start with notification it goes underground and it is sometimes very difficult then really to find out what the true position is.

*I want to tell you, Sir, that we shall watch this matter very carefully. We shall not scorn the suggestions which were raised here today. I think we are in agreement on this matter. My department is already doing certain things, hut one has one’s priorities. The fact that I have said that there are problems to which we are giving attention, does not mean that we have not done anything. No, we have taken steps, hut these have not emerged very clearly, for one has one’s priorities. The hon. member has now raised this matter, and once again I owe it to you to report what was done during the past year in respect of this matter. Then you can ask me again, and find out whether I have done my work. But as far as sex education is concerned, we have to proceed very carefully.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein East discussed the co-ordination of health services. I see the hon. member is not here … Or wait, he is here. The hon. member for Pinelands, who is rather bulky, is seated in front of him and consequently I was not able to see him. The hon. member for Pinelands need not lie flat now! The co-ordination of services is a problem with an historic background. In 1910 we had the struggle over the autonomy of the provinces, and subsequently the struggle inevitably was resumed between the departments, the provinces and the local authorities. There was a constant struggle between centralization on the one hand and decentralization, devolution and general sharing of power on the other. I cannot but agree in full with the hon. member, for the Snyman Commission as well as earlier commissions drew attention to this matter. After that we waited for 12 years for the report of the Borckenhagen Commission, in which suggestions were made, some of which have already been implemented. Since last year we have been engaged in a reassessment of the entire position. I can inform hon. members that we have recently overcome a large part of the prejudice which existed against co-operation. The central government, the provinces and the universities have made joint appointments in respect of psychiatric services, and these appear on our establishment. We have a far better division of manpower in respect of community health services and forensic services, and we hope in the near future to be able to obtain virological services as well.

The hon. member also discussed private hospitals. I just want to tell him that I have already studied the reports, and that decisions in regard to the report have been taken. At this stage I can only say that I am contemplating making certain of the regulations recommended in the report applicable, for we must at all costs have a central policy, for the high medical costs and the high costs of health services today are something which are at some time or other, causing all of us sleepless nights. The De Villiers Commission report has not been shelved. On the contrary. It is lying on the table, and it will remain there until we have finally disposed of it. In view of this report legislation will be essential, and we are therefore unable to implement all these recommendations immediately.

I was pleased about the contribution made by the hon. member for Rustenburg. He expressed his opinion in regard to mission hospitals. I think that I have already replied to him as far as the national health service and in particular as far as dental services are concerned, when I said that we are contemplating introducing such a service and furnishing a reply on this matter before the end of the year.

†The hon. member for Umlazi spoke about the salaries of doctors in full-time service and the salaries of district surgeons. I cannot allow this opportunity to pass by without expressing my appreciation for what our district surgeons are doing in the towns and especially in the far-off country areas, in the outback. I expect that a statement concerning physicians who are in full-time service of the Government will be made in the near future, as soon as the hon. the Minister of the Interior has returned from his overseas tour. It might even be sooner than that. Nevertheless that falls under his purview and not mine. It has however been discussed, a decision has been come to and in due course we I shall issue a statement on it. The remuneration for district surgeons is, in fact, being revised continually, from year to year. I do not think that their present remuneration is something to be ashamed of.

*I think that if the hon. member for Umlazi considers the amounts, if he considers what salaries these people are really receiving, he will find that we cannot at this stage dramatically increase their remuneration in any way. Nevertheless, they will always receive a sympathetic hearing from me because I was one myself, and for 18 years I had a hard enough time of it not to forget them now. This does not mean that they should receive preferential treatment, for the interest of the general public is what is most important.

In conclusion: The hon. member for Pietersburg made an exceptionally interesting speech on the virus diseases which we are, with ever-increasing frequency, having to deal with in this country. As hon. members know, viruses are the smallest of organisms, which we know about, that can affect human health. These viruses are now spreading throughout the entire world, and are entering our country with ever-increasing frequency because there is a greater movement of people, not only in Africa, but throughout the world. These viruses are also transmitted by animals. In this way cases have now occurred in which we are experiencing problems with these diseases—for example, the recent episode with the Marburg virus, which could possibly be a Jo’burg virus now, as the hon. member said. We were to a great extent dependent upon foreign aid, but I must pay tribute to our own scientists as far as the diagnosis and the examinations are concerned, and as far as the administration is concerned, I must pay tribute to my own department. They acted, to such an extent in the finest spirit of the medical profession that one was able to read of the tribute paid to them in that fine article in the Lancet, a publication which is internationally known. This publication paid us the tribute that it was a blessing and a good thing that there were scientists in this hospital who acted in the way they did. All they forgot to say was that the department’s officials sometimes battled up to 3 o’clock and 4 o’clock in the morning to make sure that all the lines of communication remained open. There was no loss of life after the nature of the disease had been ascertained. This has now convinced us that with the more frequent incidence of these virus diseases, we must have a viriological institute in South Africa. We have the Poliomyelitis Research Institute, which may serve as a starting point. Scientists there already have the equipment with which to carry out the investigations. However, they cannot render a comprehensive service as far as virology is concerned, so that we can place this research on a sound basis as far as Africa is concerned as well. The Cabinet has decided that we will take over the Poliomyelitis Research Institute. This Institute is at present being operated on a semi-private basis, although the department renders assistance to the Institute. This Institute can be expanded so that we will eventually have an institute at which research, training and service may be rendered to our people, and at which the onslaught of new diseases which could be extremely dangerous, could be combated not only in South Africa, but throughout the whole of Africa. By liaising with the Centre of Diseases Control in America, the only body which was able to provide serum in this case, South Africa’s name could once again be placed on the world map as far as international co-operation is concerned. We have the scientists. Give them the facilities and the opportunity and we will always be able to hold our own in all spheres.

I think I have now replied to all questions and requests, and I once again want to thank the hon. members for a very interesting debate.

Votes agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr.Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.