Mr. Speaker, as regards the business of the House for next week, I wish to announce once again that the Third Reading debate on the Transport Services Appropriation Bill will take place on Monday, 15 March.

The Post Office budget will be introduced on Tuesday, 16 March, and the debate on the measure will commence on Wednesday, 17 March. The Third Reading will be taken on Thursday, 18 March.

For the rest we shall follow the Order Paper, as printed.

Mr. Speaker, we have been listening to Opposition spokesmen for a long time. Both the hon. member for Berea and the hon. member for Amanzimtoti moved an amendment. The contributions from my side of the House have been praiseworthy and outstanding. It is true that there were a few positive contributions by the Opposition as well, and I shall refer to them in the course of my speech.

There is one thing that the hon. member for Berea and the Opposition should realize, so that we can get it out of our heads for once and for all. This undertaking, like any other undertaking, will have to be operated on the basis of cross-subsidization, and one can forget about having an undertaking like the South African Transport Services if one cannot transfer the profits made on one section to other, non-profitable sections.

†The hon. member once again referred to a certain theme. Well, I cannot understand why reference has to be made so frequently to that theme, viz. the Government’s colour policy. He told the House that the Government’s colour policy is the reason why the S.A. Transport Services cannot show any profit. One can paint all the people of South Africa the same colour—green or yellow, which colour does not matter—but one will not show a profit on the Transport Services, and not because of the Government’s policy. Take for instance the Trans-Karroo Train. Can the hon. member for Berea tell me whether this train has anything to do with the colour policy? Absolutely bugger all! [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order …

Sir, I withdraw that remark.

*I apologize; I should rather speak Afrikaans for a while: Moreover, in Afrikaans that is not a bad word. [Interjections.]

The contribution made by that train is 61% of the total cost. It is the case throughout the S.A. Transport Services today that passengers have to be subsidized, due to the specific cost structure. Various cost factors have to be taken into account in determining fares, for example the cost of fuel, labour, steel, electricity and other factors.

The hon. member referred to the high cost of air travel.

†He said the cumulative effect of air fare increases over the past two years was 80%. Hon. members on that side always refer to the United States as the country of free enterprise. In the United States the increase over the same period was 84%. The S.A. Airways with its regulated system is therefore well within acceptable limits, bearing in mind that fuel costs alone increased by 106% in 1980. The overall increase in our air fares was less than that of the United States.

The hon. member also referred to a delay of between two and 19 days in the transit time of containers between Durban and City Deep, and he asked for high efficiency. I am not suggesting that nothing is wrong and that we are efficient throughout, but compared with other businesses in South Africa and in the light of of the vast turnover of the S.A. Transport Services, I think the level of efficiency is not too bad after all. The refusal of the private sector to accept deliveries during the holidays in April and May last year, contributed to a large extent to these delays. However, delivery has since improved to an average of less than four days between these terminals.

*The hon. member for Newton Park made a sound speech on containerization. I shall come back to that later.

The hon. member for Berea wanted to know when I and the hon. the Minister of Finance were going to agree about the Franzsen proposals. The Franzsen proposals can only be implemented after the necessary legislation has been passed by this House. The Franzsen proposals make provision, inter alia, for the State, the employer and the employee to pay a third of the cost of transporting the employee. Will the hon. member support me if we introduce that legislation in this House?

You must just be patient.

The hon. member will not support me. I say even now that the hon. member is not going to support me, because he will say that it is unjust that the employer and the employee should each have to pay one-third. However, the hon. member keeps asking when I am going to introduce the necessary legislation in this House. I think he does this in an effort to trap me. I want to tell the hon. member that we are drafting the legislation, but that it is a long process. The hon. the Minister of Finance and I regularly consult one another about this matter and I trust that we shall be able to introduce legislation in this regard next year. When that happens I want the Opposition to support me. However, the hon. member is not saying anything now.

†The hon. member referred to salary increases and thanked me for these increases.

*Actually, he is not such a bad fellow. We get along very well. He was born in the Free State, although one would never have said that such a person came from the Free State. However, we get on well and he is grateful for the salary increases. He is also grateful for the pension adjustments and the medical scheme which will cost R21 million. However, he then asks: “Why the increases in fares?” We are allocating R460 million for salaries and pensions, and the hon. member cannot understand why we are increasing tariffs! What is the task of the Opposition? If I were in the Opposition, I should have performed even better. Let me tell him frankly that I am not angry with him about that, but in any event, I shall come back to the hon. member’s argument at a later stage.

The hon. member for Langlaagte spoke after him, and he has apologized for not being able to be here this afternoon. I just hope he does not go and cause trouble in his constituency! The hon. member first asked: Who pays for the concessions for the national servicemen, viz. the 30% discount? It is not the hon. the Minister of Defence. The S.A. Transport Services pays for it. The condition attached is that their journeys must be such as to fit in with aircraft and trains that are not fully booked. We shall spell this out clearly to our Defence Force men. I might just mention in passing that there was also a request in this regard in connection with the members of the S.A. Police. The hon. member has asked me before, and it goes without saying, that men trained by the police qualify for the same benefits as the Defence Force men, in view of the representations of the hon. the Minister of Law and Order and hon. members on this side of the House. The hon. member also asked a question in connection with the interest rates. He wanted to know how much money is borrowed. For the financing of the capital programme for 1982-’83, domestic loans of R700 million—with a redemption period of 25 years—-and foreign loans of R450 million—with a redemption period of four to five years—will be negotiated. The average interest rate on our total loans as at 31 March 1981 is 9,3%. I shall discuss with him personally the other matters to which the hon. member referred.

The hon. member for Kroonstad gave a sound financial exposition of the entire S.A. Transport Services and asked that we should not summarily terminate certain capital projects at this stage. In his amendment the hon. member for Amanzimtoti asked that we should “stop capital projects …”

I said review it.

Review it and retard the whole thing.

No, it does not say retard.

I have said before that a pessimistic spirit prevails here, because financially we are going through a trough. The hon. member for Berea told me that I should get a different crystal ball. The hon. member for De Kuilen said very clearly that it was not necessary for me to get another crystal ball. The ball I have is quite all right. No one in this House can tell me what the gold price is going to be in six months’ time. I make predictions on the basis of discussions that I and the Management of the S.A. Transport Services have with Assocom, the Chamber of Commerce, die Kamers van Koophandel, the Handelsinstituut, financial people and banks, and after our discussions with them we reached the conclusion that that will be the situation. Are we now to put a stop to the doubling of a railway line to Richards Bay, certain suburban train services, the construction of a better railway line between Durban and Johannesburg for rapid passenger traffic, projects to have trains running at speeds of 230 kilometres per hour and the construction of other railway lines? Then, in six to eight months or a year, we are out of this financial trough and there is another economic revival. When that happens we shall have another increase in the demand for transport and I shall be caught with my pants down, because I shall be unable to meet the demand. Therefore, one cannot simply say that new developments should be stopped. I am therefore very grateful to the hon. member for Kroonstad. He also put a question relating to the house ownership scheme. Lifting of the loan limits will be considered.

Hon. members on this side of the House constantly ask questions relating to matters which will benefit their voters. I appreciate this. I have never once met a single employee of the S.A. Transport Services who votes for the Progs. [Interjections.] Give me his name please. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Ermelo referred to the role of the S.A. Transport Services in Southern Africa. He referred in particular to the railway line we are now going to build through Swaziland. When I went to negotiate with the Swaziland Minister of Transport in Mbabane, I reached the conclusion that those people wanted our co-operation in the field of engineering and practical knowledge. They extend the hand of co-operation to us, and their Minister of Transport put it very well when he said that South Africa does not live in isolation and that if a country approached us in friendship and proposed that we co-operate, we would be prepared to do so.

†The hon. member for Amanzimtoti made a lot of accusations. He said in the first place that the R2 225 million capital programme must be stopped. I have already referred to that.

I did not say stop it; I said it should be reviewed. There is a difference.

Yes, there is a difference. He then gave us a long story about the under-utilization of our coaching stock. The hon. member for Durban Point also referred to that. The hon. member says that suburban coaches earn R38 per day. That is perfectly correct. What, however, are the reasons for this? The average number of passengers carried by third-class suburban coaches is 540 per day. This roughly equals 2½ single journeys. The reason for this is the existence of peak periods. In 1½ hours in the morning we transport approximately 250 000 people from Soweto to Johannesburg. What happens to those coaches during the rest of the day? We have to contend with both peak and valley periods. During valley periods the rolling stock is completely underutilized. Over the Easter and Christmas holidays and other peak holiday periods we run several hundred special trains, and again these trains are under-utilized during valley periods. The hon. member made a calculation, but arithmetic does not work that way.

I should like to hear from the hon. member for Durban Point what we should do with specially-equipped fruit wagons when no fruit is available.

*What are we to do with those wagons? Must we fill them with coal? We have thousands of fruit wagons which can only be used for the conveyance of fruit. Where are we to find grapes to transport by wagon in August?

†I want to stress an important point. The South African railways wagon covers an average distance of 51 km per day. This is the best performance in the Western World. The figure for the United States is 36,8; for France, 24,4 and 19,3 for the United Kingdom. The average effective work done per wagon in South Africa is 1 530 nett ton per kilometre per day. This compares well with 572 nett ton for Japan; 512 for France and 407 for the British railways. In addition to that, the turnover time has decreased and is better now by one day. It is now 10,68 per day and not 11 as the hon. member said.

*People from America and France come to learn from us and want to know how we manage to travel such long distances, and it is really an honour when the Japanese ask us how we manage to utilize a wagon so effectively at this high capacity.

I understand that hon. members of the Opposition have to criticize us, but they are rather poorly informed. If I knew as little as they did, I, too, should have put up such a poor show.

†I can point out that new services, such as the service from Mabopane to Pretoria and between Cape Town and Mitchell’s Plain, require extra stock. I must also point out, however, that no piece of equipment lasts for ever, and replacement on a regular basis, i.e. every 40 years, is essential. Neither the hon. member for Berea nor I can hope to be here for more than 40 years. We also have to be replaced. The same applies to a truck. After 40 years we have to replace those trucks. In 1980 we scrapped 3 873 trucks and purchased 2 375 trucks. This meant, in reality, a reduction, in the overall fleet, of 1 498, and the purpose was to save capital.

The hon. member referred to the luxurious Umlazi hostel for Blacks. I simply cannot understand it. We build a hostel for R58 million, and he says we should compare it to an hotel. Does he, however, know how many people are going to sleep in that hostel? The other amenities such as sporting facilities, cooking facilities, recreational facilities, etc., are included in the price. In the Brown Book there is a certain amount designated, but we subsequently find that our business is growing and we add another wing onto the hostel. In the meantime, however, there are cost escalations to take into account. One cannot compare it to a hotel. One only has to compare the price of a bed in this hostel with the price of a bed in a hotel. We want to give our Black workers some comfortable amenities.

Give us the cost per bed.

Yes, that can be done. I shall give the hon. member the information in the Committee Stage. [Interjections.] I think I have now spent enough time on that hon. member.

*Is the hon. member for Standerton present? [Interjections.] Old Willa is a fellow who really has a smart constituency. [Interjections.] He spoke about sound economic principles and mentioned Sentrarand. If the hon. Opposition would only speak about the marshalling yard at Bapsfontein. Have hon. members ever thought about trains full of manufactured goods travelling from the Vaal Triangle to the Cape Province? One wagon is destined for Beaufort West, another goes to Koekenaap and a third to Hotazel. In this way the wagons are distributed throughout the country. However, the trains have to be marshalled, some with semi-wagons. We are building a complex there where trains can be marshalled with the aid of computers. I thank the hon. member for Standerton for having referred to this masterpiece of our engineers.

The hon. member also pointed out that we are granting an incentive discount in the field of containerization. It has been asked what Sir Freddie Laker has done to our industry. I could be popular by introducing a nice budget and not increasing any prices, but one of us has to go on governing, and one cannot leave a bankrupt estate. Sir Freddie Laker did the transport services of the world a major disservice.

The hon. member for Kimberley South stated certain matters very clearly, but then asked why drinks were served during flights. My ailment is not a drinking ailment. I have a different ailment. [Interjections.] When we speak about a drink on an aircraft, this should not immediately be associated with alcohol because there is orange juice, apple juice, tomato juice, grape juice and also a good Cape dry wine which does not have a very high alcohol content. Of course, he can also get hard tack like …

Bols.

We carried out an investigation and gave questionnaires to the passengers on all our passenger flights. On the flight between Durban and Johannesburg we asked whether these people wanted a full meal, just a sausage roll, or a drink without anything else. We then correlated all the answers. The vast majority asked only for light refreshment, because the flight lasts a mere 35 minutes. What did we do then? If the drink or the cooldrink has to be paid for, it means that the air hostess has to have change. That would be troublesome. We therefore did away with one stewardess and we now provide the drinks free of charge. The glass that we have to provide for nothing is more expensive than a quarter bottle of wine. South African wines are the cheapest and best in the world.

Hear, hear!

The hon. member may well shout “Hear, hear!” louder. After all, we are in the Cape Province. In any event, I can give the hon. member for Kimberley South the assurance that we consider all the proposals. We investigate what is best for our passengers and at the moment that is how they want it.

What discount do you get on the stale bread and bread rolls?

You know, Sir, I asked Pik Botha this morning: “Why are you so thin? Is it because you fly with S.A. Airways too much that you are losing weight?” So, if you want to lose weight, fly with the S.A. Airways. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central asked me a few very interesting questions. He asked how many additional staff members would be required to administer the new medical scheme. Initially 370 additional clerks will be required. This number will be reduced as mechanization is introduced and progress is made with it. The hon. member must remember that we are now switching over from the old railway doctor to the new medical scheme. Accounts will have to be controlled. It is a new scheme and a new undertaking, but eventually this work will be mechanized and will be done by computer.

The hon. member also spoke of the right of the S.A. Airways to solicit a bigger share of the market from its travel agents. He remarked that international airlines operating to South Africa were incensed about South Africa’s attitude. S.A. Airways does not demand more than its rightful share of the market from its travel agents. If we appoint a travel agent, we expect him to bring us 50% of the business, only 50%. We had a meeting with the Association of S.A. Travel Agents at which we said: “Give us 50% of the business for S.A. Airways and give the other 50% to our pool partners”. We are in a pool business. I cannot see anything wrong in asking these people to have this attitude towards our own business.

The hon. member also suggested that S.A. Airways should rationalize its international services and asked why S.A. Airways could not withdraw from the Tel Aviv route and allow El Al to operate this route alone. You know, Sir, it is strange to have a South African asking that South Africa’s business should be reduced to the benefit of another country. In business terms I can agree with him.

It is to our own benefit as well.

Yes. The income from the S.A. Airways flights to Rome, Athens and Tel Aviv covers the direct costs and a proportion of the indirect costs. S.A. Airways negotiated with its pool partners in an attempt to cut the losses, but they were not prepared to meet us. Services are rationalized on a continuous basis and considerable savings have been effected to date, mainly due to route changes. However, the cancelling of flights without the sale of capital assets and a reduction of staff will in actual fact increase and not decrease losses. Nevertheless, we shall go into these suggestions. As the hon. member said, we are not mad about the idea of having the yellow tail in every country of the world. We must look at the question of profitability. We shall, however, look into this matter.

Lastly the hon. member asked whether the concession to national servicemen could not also be extended to members of the Permanent Force. Members of the Permanent Force are salaried staff and are normally resident adjacent to their place of employment. They have requested this in the past. However, if one gives such a concession to the Permanent Force, there are a lot of other people I can mention to whom it should be given too. This is only for the young chap without a high income who is compelled to leave his residence to go for training in another province. That is why we give him the 30% discount.

*The hon. member for Kempton Park also put a few interesting questions to me. At the moment other hon. members who belong to our transport study group are also in the House. I also wish to thank the hon. member for De Kuilen for his willingness to be chairman of that group and of the Select Committee. I thank him and other hon. members for the help and advice I receive from them. Certain hon. members requested me to grant specific benefits to the staff of the S.A. Transport Services. I shall refer specifically to the staff during the Third Reading debate.

Of course, it is easy for me to stand here and spout, with all the answers in my hand. But who provided me with these answers? It is the staff. After all, one cannot simply go and catch a man in the bush and make him Minister of Transport Affairs and think that he will be able to provide all these answers as well as I am doing, if he does not have people who put them in his hand. [Interjections.]

I now come back to the hon. member for Kempton Park. He asked for the introduction of a “Visit South Africa” concession for foreign visitors. That is a very good idea. There is already a proportional fare for foreign visitors, permitting them to travel in the Republic at a discount of 20% on the normal sector fare. Consideration is being given to extending this concession and making it even more attractive. I have said before that we want to attract foreign visitors here, not only for the sake of our own industry but also for the sake of the hotel industry and the business world.

While in London I happened to enter an office and stood there listening—no one knew who I was—to a man who was standing there talking. It was a man wearing a hat with a rim—what does one call them again?—bowler hats. He stood there with his umbrella over his arm and asked for a Blue Train ticket. He was told that the Blue Train was fully booked in advance for six months. He was also told that he could obtain a ticket if he was prepared to travel with the SAA. He did so. He was a rich man. He came to South Africa, and I am sure that he stayed in the best hotels, that he visited the Kruger National Park and in so doing promoted tourism. He also promoted the activities of our Parks Board, of course. I am also sure that he left with a favourable attitude. After all, when one has seen this country, one cannot be angry with it.

Some people were born here, but are nevertheless angry with South Africa.

Yes, fortunately they are only the exceptions. However, we are retaining the existing concession and we envisage expanding it.

With reference to a further question put by the hon. member for Kempton Park, I should like to take this opportunity to announce that in order to stimulate internal passenger services and make better use of the unutilized capacity on flights operated at inconvenient times, particularly flights that leave late at night, it has been decided to introduce an Apex excursion rate instead of the excursions of 7 to 28 days and 10 to 21 days with effect from 1 April 1982. A limited number of seats on selected flights will be offered throughout the year and a discount of 15% will be offered on the economic return fare. The Apex fare between Johannesburg and Cape Town will be R240 instead of R282. In order to maintain the competitiveness of the airfreight services at the SAA, the following internal airfreight tariffs and costs have been exempted from the tariff increases to come into operation on 1 April 1982: Container rates between Johannesburg and Cape Town/Durban; city jet cargo service tariffs applicable between the SAA’s domestic points in Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban; and express air cargo tariffs applicable to domestic services.

Mr. Speaker, I arrived at D.F. Malan Airport to catch the 6 o’clock flight to Johannesburg. There was a group of people there who said to me: “Man, our names are on a waiting list. We cannot get a place on the flight.” I told them: “But there is a flight at 8 o’clock.” Their reply was: “But then I will only get to Johannesburg at 10 o’clock, and I still want to have a few drinks before I go to bed.” Those are the well-off people, of course. However, those of my customers who are not so well-off are prepared to take the 8 o’clock flight and arrive in Jonhannesburg at 10 o’clock, and then they prefer to take a glass of milk. This is the person who will now be getting this discount. In any event, he can be in time for work the next morning. I just mention this matter with reference to what the hon. member for Kempton Park had to say.

The hon. member Dr. Welgemoed discussed productivity and the effective conducting of our affairs and said that this should be seen together with the capital investment. The USA, for example, is a country in which a system of free enterprise is upheld. In that country an amount of R600 million was refused United Airlines for the purchase of Boeing aircraft. That is a country with a system of free enterprise. The hon. member Dr. Welgemoed is acquainted with the Transport Services. It is his life. He has already given us a great deal of advice and I am very grateful to him for his contribution.

I shall have more to say about the Transport Advisory Board, to which he referred, when the Transport Vote is discussed in this House.

The hon. member for Greytown discussed the use of the labour of people of colour. We are making increasing use of people of colour and this fact is proved by the statistics. We have 260 000 workers on the railways, 110 000 of whom are Whites.

And only two air-hostesses.

The hon. member for Berea refers to air-hostesses. You see, Sir, he is side-tracking me now. Is the hon. member going to ask me these questions at a later stage?

Yes.

I shall refer to them then. I have a very good answer to that. [Interjections.] Very well, then, I shall leave it. As I say, we are making increasing use of people of colour and we have our staff associations for Blacks, coloureds and Asians. Some of these staff associations have already intimated that they are prepared to accept this. We are not imposing this on the staff associations. If one of the staff associations intimates—and this has occurred—that it is prepared to accept Blacks, then we certainly shall not under any circumstances refuse.

I find it strange that a member of the Opposition could put this question to me: What will we do about South West Africa if independence is declared and we do not want people to flee from there when the place becomes Namibia? Why should people flee from South West Africa? Why does the hon. member ask such a question?

I said, ensure that the posts are occupied by people who will not flee.

My assumption is that no one will flee. My assumption is that if the Blacks there come to an agreement with the Whites under the conditions set by South West Africa, why should anyone flee? I find it ironic that underlying that hon. member’s thinking there is the connotation of flight. One can do what one likes; someone is going to flee. To me this is the wrong approach entirely. However, I can say to the hon. member that there are already 1 200 Black workers who have been trained to continue with the Transport Services in South West Africa when a settlement is reached in that country some day.

The hon. member for Newton Park compared our containerization set-up with those of Rotterdam, Hamburg and Southampton. It gives me great pleasure when the hon. member for Newton Park tells us that we can draw a comparison between the containerization set-up in South Africa and those in harbour cities such as Hamburg, Rotterdam and Southampton and that our services here are in fact better. In 1966 I read in the newspapers that in one evening there were 28 ships in our harbour. The tonnage of cargo handled in our harbours is increasing constantly. The tonnage of cargo that can be handled in a period of eight hours is remarkable. We have set a world record, due to these new techniques we are using in our harbours. I am pleased the hon. member has made a study of this. I thank him for his contribution.

The hon. member for Mossel Bay said that the S.A. Railways must be administered on business principles but that we are also a socio-economic undertaking. The hon. member also referred to the human material of the transport services, on the platteland in particular. Hon. members of the Opposition have not experienced this, but ask any hon. member on this side of the House what happens on the platteland. Travel to a place like Laingsburg or Pofadder, for example, where there is a station, and visit the station master and tell him where you come from. Just experience the warmth of those people. This is the human material we have there. Go to the home of such a person and see how neat it is. Look at his wife’s flower garden, too. She will give you a cup of coffee and a koeksister as well. I find it praiseworthy that hon. members on my side speak about the human material of the S.A. Transport Services.

†The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North said that one could transport a kilogram of yarn for 16,5 cents by road and 19,5 cents by rail.

No, 16,5 cents and 12 cents.

Very well, 16,5 cents and 12 cents. That is as far as a kilogram of yarn is concerned. But would that same private haulier transport a ton of lucerne? Never! Forget it! He is not interested in that. There is no money in it. They skim off the cream; the private haulier will transport goods if there is money in it for him. However, our organization has to carry everything from kraal manure to Progs! [Interjections.] I am only joking.

The hon. member also said that our locomotives were withdrawn from Zimbabwe for political reasons.

Of course they were.

The hon. member said he was in Zimbabwe.

That is correct.

He was there? What is the name of their Minister of Transport?

Chinamano.

And his first name?

Josiah.

Yes, the hon. member was there. [Interjections.] The hon. member should listen to this: The National Railways of Zimbabwe was warned as early as August 1980 that the diesel locomotives on hire to them would be withdraw systematically as the various contracts lapsed. This was necessary in order to meet our own requirements for motive power during the winter season when the demands for coal increase. The locomotives were again made available to them after the winter season. The hon. member knows that this is true.

Why did the winter season start at the end of June?

All depends on the request for transport in our country. The steam locomotives leased to them were not withdrawn as they could be spared. The hon. member should not try to play politics with this issue. We are a business undertaking and if those people pay us the price we ask, in which a profit is included …

But they were paying for them.

Yes, they were paying, and that is the reason why we helped them, but we cannot let our people shiver in the cold here while we supply those people with locomotives.

He also asked whether there was a committee to investigate commuters’ problems. He also wanted to know, if there was such a committee, whether commuters were represented and what the terms of reference were. There are railway transport committees for Coloureds, Indians and Blacks, and they meet at regular intervals to assist local system managers to sort out commuter and related problems. Prominent members of the local communities serve on the committees and form a valuable liaison to the advantage of both the S.A Transport Services and the local commuters.

The hon. member requested that race separation be abolished on all trains.

On suburban trains.

Except in the case of the Blue and Drakensberg Trains which are classified as international trains, passengers of different race groups are in accordance with Government policy not normally allowed to travel together on ordinary passenger trains. I have received a request from the Durban municipality to abolish separate seats on buses…

The hon. member for Algoa asked that.

That is all right.

While I was busy with this, I received a few letters. In one of them the correspondent stipulated that the city council comprises wealthy people. This correspondent, I think, is a supporter of the PFP. In his letter he told me that he was a poor man and therefore he had to travel by bus; he was not a city councillor. He said that the city councillors should travel by bus and soon they would find out what could happen to them. I am not a racist, but I want to protect the minorities in this country.

But he cannot travel third class.

The hon. member does not travel by train during the peak periods.

I do travel by train.

The hon. member has a motor car on which he receives a subsidy. Yes, that is indeed so. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North is a poor man of the PFP.

There are no poor people in the PFP; only fat cats.

The questions asked by the hon. member for Sundays River are very illuminating. Since his questions concern buses and therefore do not affect the activities of the Transport Services I shall only give attention to the matters he raised when we discuss the Vote of the Department of Transport. Nevertheless he made an illuminating speech attesting to indepth study.

The hon. member for Koedoespoort said that the Opposition only criticized and did not offer any alternative. I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member. He was one of those hon. members who asked me to adopt a sympathetic approach with regard to pensioners who had retired before 1973. I shall give further attention to the request of the hon. member.

The hon. member for Bellville was previously the secretary of our study group. We have now obtained just as smart a secretary. The Van der Walts and Van der Watts are excellent fellows. I want to say that the hon. member really made a sound contribution. He discussed growth and stability. He also referred to the cost pressure factors. We do not create inflation, but are victims of inflation. I regard it as very important that the hon. member said that.

†I now want to come to the hon. member for Durban Point. He spoke about the turn-round time of trucks. I have already dealt with that. The hon. member says he asked for the concessions for national servicemen. But he was not the only person who asked for it. He also suggests that we must link the journey from Windhoek to Durban. One buys two separate tickets at a linked price, so one does not pay for one ticket from Upington to Johannesburg and for a separate ticket from Johannesburg to Durban. Although one gets two tickets, one gets it at the through fare.

A ticket from Upington to Durban costs more if one breaks the journey.

I will give the hon. member the exact figures. The hon. member also referred to the question of people being dismissed without getting an annuity. I am at the moment engaged in correspondence with the hon. member over the matter and I do not want to go into detail now. You know, Sir, I do not like writing letters.

*There was once a young man who said that for three years he wrote two letters a week to his girl. When someone asked him why he did not marry her, he replied that she had in the meantime married the postman! Therefore I do not believe in this business of letter-writing. However, I shall provide the hon. member with detailed information about this matter.

†The hon. member further made an accusation about tipper trucks and inquired why the S.A. Transport Services entered into this field. How can one reply to a question like this? Why do the S.A. Transport Services acquire tipper trucks? Simply to compete with private enterprise? The South African farmers say that fertilizer prices are too high and that they must therefore switch over to the bulk handling of fertilizer. They order it from Potchefstroom or from Sasolburg, or from wherever the factories are, and they want it delivered on their lands and the price must include delivery on the land. They say they do not want to pay a price to the station and then pay for its delivery on the land where the crop is produced. So when the farmers ask the S.A. Transport Services to buy tipper trucks so as to be able to give them a complete service in order for them to save money and to produce food at a lower price, the Opposition say that we are in competition with private enterprise. The hon. member must not say things like that now. If he makes statements like that in my constituency, we shall work his case for him. The hon. member also referred to the intention to close Cape Town station for all mainline passenger trains, with the exception of the Blue Train. Can you believe it, Sir?

I asked whether that was true.

Must I ask the hon. member whether it is true that he weighs only 40 kg? [Interjections.] With due respect, the hon. member could just as well have asked me whether the Union Buildings in Pretoria was going to be closed.

That is obvious nonsense.

Yes, my old friend, I did not really want to say it to the hon. member myself. However, we shall not close Cape Town station; I promise the hon. member that.

Is it then not going to happen?

Definitely not. The other points raised by the hon. member will be followed up.

*The hon. member for Rosettenville gave an excellent survey of the activities of the S.A. Transport Services in the course of his speech. The hon. member enters into the spirit of this organization. He is a part of it; that is why his name is “Sporie”. Last Saturday night I accompanied the hon. member on a social visit to his constituency and I could see how fond his voters were of him. Can hon. members believe that “Oom Sporie”, chief elder in the church, arranged a dance in Rosettenville? [Interjections.] During the Third Reading I shall refer to the other matters which the hon. member touched on concerning the staff of the S.A. Transport Services. I thank the hon. member for his kind words about this organization.

†The hon. member for Walmer referred to the S.A. Transport Services as an all-powerful monopoly. Yesterday I referred to certain things which the hon. member said and I offered him, a capable businessman, to take over our Road Transport Services. The city council of Cape Town is not prepared to take over City Tramsways. Undertakings of this kind are not very profitable.

It is because there is apartheid on buses.

Forget it! Is there apartheid on buses in Cape Town?

[Inaudible.]

No come on, Alf. I had been thinking of giving up smoking to make you happy, but now I shall carry on.

†The hon. member wants to know what our policy is with regard to future salary increases, taking the inflation rate into consideration. I ask him as a businessman: What is the policy of private enterprise in South Africa with regard to salary increases? How can the S.A. Transport Services compete with private enterprise where they give 18% increase and we give only 15%? And now the hon. member asks me what our policy is. I say that the whole matter will be resolved in South Africa if private enterprise will face the situation at one stage or the other. In this connection I refer to the recent announcement by the Ford Motor Company of America wherein they said that they were not prepared to grant salary increases. But why do the S.A. Transport Services lose personnel to private enterprise? It is for only one reason. It is because they pay bigger salaries than we can afford.

*The hon. member wants us to put on the brakes, but in the meantime he poaches our staff by offering them higher salaries. However, that is probably just the approach of the good businessman.

†I too am in business and I know that salary increases must come from both sides. I cannot stand up here and say that we are not prepared to give the employees of the S.A. Transport Services an increase in salary to keep pace with the inflation rate. I have to discuss everything with my staff associations and I must get them to agree with me. The whole matter, however, depends upon South Africa’s financial situation next year. It will depend upon the gold price, etc.

The hon. member also inquired whether the statistic in connection with the quoted interest rate of 8% were correct. The average interest rate on total loan capital was 9,3% on 31 March 1981. This average rate is lower than the current market rate because some of the loans were acquired at relatively low fixed interest rates long ago. The newer rates are much higher, however. As hon. members know, one cannot borrow money today at 9,3%. Nevertheless, the average of our interest rate is 9,3%, as I have already mentioned.

*The hon. member for Bloemfontein East replied to the Opposition very effectively. He is the new secretary of our group and he said that the S.A. Transport Services form part of South Africa. That is true. It is integrated throughout our entire country, and I am not referring only to pipelines, harbours and road transport services. Taking the society as a whole, with its population, it forms part of South Africa.

The hon. member for Nigel put certain questions to me. He asked that the pensions be consolidated and referred to the amounts of R44 and R22. In the old days there was a pension problem and at the time a person with dependants obtained R44, and one without dependants, an amount of R22. I know that the hon. member wants this consolidated with the pensions. This will cost additional money, and accordingly I cannot give a positive answer to that at this stage. The hon. member also put a question relating to tax exemption for pensions. However, this is a matter which falls under the hon. the Minister of Finance. The hon. member can raise that when the Finance Vote is discussed. I, too, shall bring it to his attention for what it is worth, but I cannot even budge him with regard to estate duty. Therefore the hon. member can make a plan to join me in discussing this matter with him. I shall inform the hon. member personally with regard to the branch lines.

Mr. Speaker, the Whips have said that I had to speak for an hour, but I am unable to. In any event, I am very grateful that I was able to reply thus far. I shall reply to the Committee Stage this evening after supper time. On Monday, in the Third Reading, I shall react to anything I have overlooked.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question,

Mr. Chairman, we are now in the Committee Stage, dealing with the Schedules, and as the first speaker on this side of the House I know that you will allow me to deal in general terms with the Bill and some of the comments made by the hon. the Minister during his reply and by some of the other hon. members on that side of the House during the Second Reading debate.

The hon. the Minister and hon. members on that side of the House have complained that it is easy for us to criticize and said that, when one criticizes higher tariffs and higher fares, one should suggest where else the money must come from. The hon. the Minister said yesterday afternoon and again today that he has had to meet salary demands, pension demands, higher interest rates, higher electricity rates and higher fuel costs. I think I indicated perfectly clearly in the Second Reading debate that we recognized that the hon. the Minister had these problems. I also indicated that there were two problem areas which accentuated the difficulties in which the hon. the Minister found himself. I referred to the problems in regard to the passenger services and said that they arose from Government policy—I shall come back to that. I also referred to the fact that the hon. the Minister—this is reflected throughout in his budget speech—had a problem this year, as he did last year and the year before, with escalating fuel costs which obviously made it very difficult for him to draw up a budget. I indicated too that I believed that it was the result of certain aspects of Government policy that that problem too, was accentuated. Were it not for these two factors, the problem in relation to passenger services and the difficulty to anticipate the price of fuel and the fact that we have to pay an excessively high fuel price, I believe that even in a difficult economic climate—we concede that the climate is difficult, not only in South Africa but also elsewhere—the Minister would have had a far easier task and could have presented a budget which would have been found more palatable by the people of South Africa.

The hon. the Minister this afternoon came back to the question of losses on passenger services. He said that, if one were to remove the colour issue from the problem, the losses would still be there. One is talking here of losses on commuter passenger services and, certainly, it is in terms of Government policy that in the great urban areas of South Africa the labour force are being compelled to live great distances from their places of employment. That is at the root of most of the problems in regard to the transport services, because it is in terms of Government policy that people are required to live long distances away from their work. If one looks at other parts of the world, one finds that the reverse is really the case there. In other great cities, in other great industrial centres, it is the workers who actually live within the cities close to the industrial areas and it is the others who live at a distance outside the cities. In South Africa we have the reverse situation. It therefore places an unnatural burden on urban passenger transport costs. This is at the root of many of the problems with which the hon. the Minister has to contend. Transport services have to be provided, and they have to be provided at uneconomic rates because they have to be provided for workers who are unable to afford the cost of travelling such great distances. That is why the hon. the Minister has this annual discussion with his colleague the hon. the Minister of Finance to try to find a formula.

This afternoon the hon. the Minister told us that the Franzsen Committee had sat and what its recommendations were. He then said again that he was going to discuss the matter with his colleague the Minister of Finance. As I have indicated earlier, he told us that last year and again this year. One wonders what the problem is in regard to these negotiations. One would think that the hon. the Minister was involved in international negotiations to try to find a solution or, at least, that he was trying to negotiate with the hon. member for Waterberg over something, but he is actually negotiating with one of his own colleagues. I presume they do discuss things with each other. They see each other frequently. I want to know what the reason is for the delay. How long is it going to take to find a solution? The hon. the Minister spoke this afternoon of introducing legislation next session. Does this mean that he has now at least concluded his negotiations with his colleague the Minister of Finance?

It is important that a solution be found. The whole question of the burden placed on our transport services in regard to passenger services is also of course a reflection of the dilemma in which the Transport Services find themselves generally, a dilemma which has been emphasized once again throughout the Second Reading debate: Is it a business undertaking, or is it an undertaking which is performing a business operation but also a socio-economic operation? I think we must decide once and for all what we are expecting from our Transport Services. It is clearly not a business organization in the strict sense of the term, and I think that perhaps the sooner we acknowledge this the better. The hon. the Minister said again this afternoon that it was a business undertaking. He said so in his budget speech too. We do know, however, that traditionally and historically the Administration has had to—and it still does—provide services which take it far beyond the scope of a mere business undertaking. The S.A. Transport Services have included in their activities the opening up of areas of South Africa. They have, in difficult times—particularly if one thinks of the 1930s—provided employment opportunities for people in South Africa. They have also included in their activities the need—and this has really happened—to adapt to political ideologies of the Government of the day. I believe that very often—particularly in difficult times—the Transport Services are in fact finding themselves the victim, in many respects, of political policies of this Government.

The dilemma was also emphasized yesterday when one listened to speeches from hon. members on the Government side. The hon. member for Mossel Bay, for instance, made a good speech. He made out a strong case in his attempt to indicate that the S.A. Transport Services was a business undertaking, that in terms of its charter it was to operate in a business-like manner. He underscored, however, the social and economic obligations attaching to the S.A. Transport Services.

The hon. member for Bellville, on the other hand, made an extraordinary speech. He over-emphasized the social and economic responsibilities of the S.A. Transport Services. Then he found himself in the economic field, and I think he is the only man in South Africa who will say that this budget is not inflationary. There he was, for a fairly tortuous reason, reasoning—and I believe he is a lawyer by profession—in the most extraordinary way. I watched him closely. I know he was referring to the hon. member for Amanzimtoti. He said that when the hon. member for Amanzimtoti spoke quietly and slowly he had a strong case, but when he spoke quickly and loudly he had a weak case. I looked at the hon. member for Bellville while he was speaking. He is a lawyer and he was arguing his case, but he had a smile on his face all the time. I believe that even he was amused at the sort of nonsense he was talking when he spoke about the non-inflationary aspects of this budget.

So, one sees again the dilemma in respect of the question of whether the S.A. Transport Services is a business undertaking or whether it has to perform more of a socioeconomic service.

I want to deal now with the hon. member for Ermelo, who is unfortunately not in the House now. He made a good speech too, especially when he was dealing with the responsibility of the S.A. Transport Services towards stabilizing the situation in Southern Africa. Then, however, he succumbed to playing party politics when he attacked my credentials and the credentials of other hon. members on this side of the House as spokesmen for Railways and Transport Services. He suggested—and the hon. the Minister made the same sort of suggestion here this afternoon—that we were so far removed from the problems of railway staff and personnel that we had no knowledge of them and no sympathy for them. I do not know what the credentials of the hon. member for Ermelo are when he talks on Transport matters. I do think, however, it is time it was placed on record that I am the son of a railwayman, that I grew up in and around railway stations, both in the Orange Free State and in Natal, and that I have had a very close association throughout my life with people who have been involved in the S.A. Transport Services.

I also believe that the hon. member for Ermelo and the hon. the Minister should be told that their party does not have the monopoly of the support of S.A. Transport Services employees around the country. Fact is many thinking employees support the PFP. Of course, this is their right, and I hope that the fact that they support the non-governing party is not going to prejudice them in their careers as employees of the S.A. Transport Services. The arrogance of the hon. member for Ermelo in suggesting that all Transport Services employees are good Nationalists is quite astounding, and I hope that this is not the view of the Administration, because we must realize that when we are dealing with the S.A. Transport Services we are dealing with a State undertaking which should be free of party politics. [Time expired.]

Sir, give the hon. man a chance to complete his speech. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea referred to certain remarks I made yesterday during the Second Reading debate. I should like to react to this. If the hon. member for Berea had consulted my Hansard he would have seen that I had not at any stage stated explicitly that the tariff increases of the S.A. Transport Services had no effect on the consumer price index. I never said that at any stage. The main point I tried to make in my speech was that the tariff increases of the S.A. Transport Services were the result, inter alia, of the increase in prices and inputs over which the Administration had no control. In the economic sense of the word it is not fair to single out the S.A. Transport Services when it increases its tariffs and accuse it of taking an inflationary step, for that is not true. In the first place the tariffs are being increased as a result of factors over which the S.A. Transport Services have no control. In the second place the tariffs are being increased on services that do not even cover the basic costs of those services. I have already mentioned the fact that as far as passenger services are concerned, only about 25% of the costs are covered. As far as mining is concerned, only about 11% of the costs are covered. This means that 89% of the mining goods conveyed are conveyed below cost. That is why I stated—and I want to repeat it this afternoon—that owing to cross subsidization as such, tariffs are not being increased to push up the profits of this undertaking but to reduce the losses. That is why, in the purely economic sense of the word, the tariff increases are not inflationary. However, I am not denying that the increase in tariffs will have an effect on the consumer price index. However, we must then extend the parallel to the private sector and we must affix the same label to the private sector. I said that if the cost of the paper used by the newspaper companies to print their newspapers were to rise that increase in costs would be recovered by increasing the price of the service offered. The same principle applies to the S.A. Transport Services. As far as inflation is concerned the all-important question is: Could these tariff increases not have been lower if there had been more managerial skill, better rationalization of the capital programme, or an increase in productivity? If you were to tell me that managerial skill should be improved, that productivity should be increased and that the capital programme should be better utilized, and that these factors had been the cause of tariff increases, I would agree with you, for we would then be dealing with inflation in the purely economic sense of the word. However, the present setup is not inflationary in itself.

I shall not make the speech I prepared for the Committee Stage because there is insufficient time left, and instead I shall associate myself with this theme of the dynamic and imaginative programme of the Administration to fight inflation. This programme of the S.A. Transport Services to fight inflation forms part of their entire capital programme in the sense that provision is being made for self-financing from Revenue. An amount of R150 million is being transferred to the Revenue Reserve Account this year. Provision for depreciation and higher replacement costs is also being made from Revenue. The combination of the Revenue Reserve Fund and the Higher Replacement Costs Reserve Fund is the dynamo for a self-financing capital programme at present totalling an accumulated amount of R1 300 million for the present financial year.

Where does the anti-inflation campaign of the S.A. Transport Services come into this? What it amounts to is that 50% of the capital programme for this year need not be borrowed. This is self-financing therefore and it means that interest amounting to R200 million a year which would have had to be recovered from the user of railway service facilities has been saved. This is the position over a period of five years, because this process has been under way since 1975. In five years the S.A. Transport Services has saved R1 000 million for South Africa, for the economy of South Africa and for the travelling public of South Africa. This is what I call imaginative managerial skill, for not only will we reap the benefit of it this year, but also in the years that lie ahead.

What other anti-inflation benefits does this capital package hold? The hon. member for Langlaagte referred to loans. If you are negotiating loans on the capital market, international bankers do not ask who your Opposition is. They do not ask if you play around with words like “power-sharing.” As the hon. member Dr. Welgemoed said, they ask you what your transport stability is and what your debt ratio is, based on your own capital and foreign capital. If your debt ratio is sound, you have access to capital and favourable terms for loans. However, the incalculable anti-inflationary benefit lies in the fact that if your capital operations are internally sound, the risk margin at which you lend money is very low. This saves South Africa and the travelling public hundreds of millions of rands every year.

That is why I said that in the economic sense of the word the tariff increases are not inflationary, and I also said that the Administration ought to be congratulated on the anti-inflationary measures it initiates year after year. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to be able to speak after the hon. member for Bellville. It is always enjoyable to listen to a man who knows what he is talking about and how to put his case. That is why we on this side of the House so frequently enjoy ourselves when we listen to Nationalists speaking.

Hear, hear!

I think the hon. member for Bellville has already replied most effectively to the speech by the hon. member for Berea.

I should like to refer to items 299 and 491 in the Capital Budget in bringing a few matters to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

To start with, I want to say that I am sure every hon. member in this House is as grateful as I am that the hon. the Minister is always willing to discuss any matter affecting his department. However, this is not all; the hon. the Minister is also willing to invite any hon. member to discuss the problems in his constituency with him, and one can rest assured that these problems will soon receive attention. For this reason I feel at liberty to raise this matter.

I want to bring to the attention of this House that although it may seem strange to hear me, the member for Virginia, speaking about item 299, which actually concerns Welkom, one-third of Welkom actually forms part of the constituency of Virginia. It represents about 7 000 voters. In addition, the town of Virginia is, of course, part of my constituency. My colleague, the hon. member for Welkom, and I are working together on this matter about which I have something to say to the hon. the Minister today.

Last year we were very grateful to note that in last year’s budget an amount in excess of R2 million was earmarked for certain improvements to the station at Welkom. This year R1 666 000 is being voted for this purpose. As is indicated in the budget, this money is mainly intended for improvements to facilities at the goods shed. We are grateful for this because it is urgently needed. Item 491 refers to a new road transport depot at a cost of R222 400. We are grateful for this, too, because it is also urgently needed. We are grateful that the hon. the Minister has seen fit to make available such a large sum for the erection of better facilities, particularly in respect of the goods shed.

However, with all due respect I want to say that Welkom and the Goldfields are at present probably one of the most rapidly growing growth points in the country. I do not want to say any more during this vote about the growth potential and the real growth that has taken place in this region this year and in recent years. However, I do want to say that this growth will continue in the years ahead. It is not only I who say so; economists who are well informed about the situation there say the same thing. I feel this rapid growth in Welkom and the Goldfields may have caught certain State departments offside.

Although we are extremely grateful for this large sum voted in the budget for the erection of better goods shed facilities, I just want to say that the station as a whole—I refer to the yard, the buildings and the offices, as well as the passenger section—in other words, what is actually in the public eye—is not good enough for a modern city like Welkom. If I were to show an hon. member around the modern and rapidly developing town of Welkom and then take him to the station, the station building and its yard is definitely no credit to the city nor, indirectly, to the department concerned.

We should very much like the hon. the Minister to consider making available a sum of money available in the budget for the improvement of the yard and the passenger services. We want to tell the hon. the Minister that on behalf of Welkom and the Goldfields, including Virginia and Odendaalsrus, we shall provide him with a well thought out and scientifically based memorandum analysing this need.

The station at Virginia is not in a much better condition than the one at Welkom. Granted the need in Virginia is not so pressing at the moment, but I am convinced that it should be given the necessary attention now, otherwise in a year or two we shall have exactly the same problem in Virginia as we now have in Welkom. This state of affairs has arisen because the more rapid growth in the region has extended to Virginia, and Virginia lies on the main line— whereas Welkom does not—and we should greatly appreciate it if the hon. the Minister and his department were to look at the existing facilities in Virginia in good time and consider the possibility of improving these facilities, with due regard to the rapid growth in this part of the Free State.

While I am at it, I should also like to refer to a matter that has frequently been discussed here, inter alia, by the previous hon. member for Welkom, namely the facilities provided by the airways. It is true that the existing facilities, namely the buildings and the runways, are good, but the real problem is that Welkom is not integrated into the scheduled flights of the S.A. Airways. I am aware that it must be borne in mind that the S.A. Transport Services is a business undertaking, and I fully endorse this view, but due to the tremendous expansion, and as a result of the need that exists, we in the Goldfields are convinced that the number of passengers would justify Welkom’s being included in the scheduled flights of the S.A. Airways. I know this will cost money, but the local authorities there are very well disposed towards this entire matter, and I think they will also make their contribution if necessary.

It is true that Welkom is quite close to Jan Smuts Airport and Bloemfontein Airport, but it is also true that Kimberley is near those two airports, and I think that if the routes are reorganized, Welkom could indeed be included in such a way that the transportation of passengers to and from Welkom could even be profitable. I should very much like the hon. the Minister to consider this matter.

As I have already said, we shall set out these matters in a memorandum, in which we shall define the entire area to be served by Welkom and the potential there. I believe that people from as far afield as Klerksdorp would find it better and more pleasant to travel to Welkom, because although the distance is more or less the same, the traffic on the roads is so much less if they travel to that area. It would therefore serve a large area and not just Welkom as such.

I conclude by saying that the hon. the Minister has already proved that he is a man who can get things done. We are looking forward to his getting these things done for Welkom.

Mr. Chairman, I want to refer to item 653 of the Capital Budget. To indicate how important the matter is, I just want to point out that last year in this House I gave hon. members an idea of the tremendous scope and size of the Koedoespoort workshop. I also gave an indication of the large number of workshops and of the important service that is being rendered there of the S.A. Transport Services. In the Capital Budget under items 648 to 651 there are other extensions and improvements being planned for Koedoespoort. These extensions and improvements will make the workshop at Koedoespoort more and more important in the set up of the S.A. Transport Services. Under item 653 provision is being made for security lighting around workshops. In general I think this matter is of very great importance. I cannot talk about the workshops of the S.A. Transport Services in other places. However, I am well acquainted with the circumstances at Koedoespoort. I do not want to suggest that the security arrangements at that workshop are not effective, but bearing in mind its position and certain incidents that have occurred, it would perhaps be advisable for the S.A. Transport Services to ensure that the people working there are properly protected. To the west of the workshops there is a bypass road that carries heavy traffic and there are also other roads running past, that the hon. the Minister knows about, and on which I shall not elaborate at the moment. In addition the workshops are also surrounded by houses which accommodate a large number of people. Bearing in mind all these factors it is of the greatest importance that this site be secured to the utmost.

Recently a number of terrorist attacks were carried out in and around Pretoria. These attacks indicate that Pretoria and its environs have become the target of the terrorists, against which they want to launch their attacks. Since the workshop at Koedoespoort renders important services to the S.A. Transport Services, I am convinced that we must do everything in our power to prevent it’s also being attacked by terrorists. I am therefore asking that we ensure that maximum safety measures apply at this workshop. I am not only referring to the large entrance gate on the south side, but to the entire site. It is a large piece of ground that has to be protected and safeguarded, and that is why I am asking, for the sake of the services provided there, for the sake of the large amount of money invested in it, and for the sake of the people working there, that we ensure that there is maximum security at this workshop.

I also want to refer briefly to the estimate of operating expenses, particularly refreshments and bedding service. When one travels on the Trans-Karoo train from Johannesburg to Cape Town, one can have lunch and supper that compares favourably with what an average hotel has to offer. If one compares the price of those meals with what one pays for similar meals at a hotel, it is so reasonable that I sometimes feel the S.A. Transport Services must either make the price of those meals more comparable to those of hotels, or change the meal in such a way that you need not necessarily eat a full midday or evening meal. I ascertained from the department that they can change this service into an á la carte service in certain dining cars. This will mean that you need not eat a large lunch and a large supper, but that you can have a cheaper and lighter meal or even light refreshments, that will be served throughout the day. I trust that the hon. the Minister will give serious attention to this question, and that the lighter meals will be available on most train services, particularly those over long distances. I am speaking for myself. Perhaps other people eat more than I do, but it is not possible for me to eat and to enjoy two large meals a day. On such a long journey one would like to eat one large meal for which one pays enough. I have no objection to paying for the food I enjoy, but I must then have the opportunity to have a light meal as I hear is being envisaged. My plea is that the hon. the Minister gives attention to this matter so that this service can be expanded.

In spite of what the hon. the Minister said in his Second Reading speech regarding the serving of free drinks on aircraft, I still want to ask that the matter be reconsidered. I am not yet convinced by the reasons furnished by the hon. the Minister for the serving of drinks. In spite of what he said, I want to ask him to reconsider. I am convinced that it is not necessary for someone travelling from Pretoria to Cape Town, over a period of two hours, to drink liquor. If he wants to, he must pay for it. My plea is that we should not provide this service free of charge. I just want to raise these few matters, and I am confident that the hon. the Minister will give serious attention to them and in particular to the question of providing security.

Mr. Chairman, of course I agree with many of the things said by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. However, If I have to pay R280 for a plane-ticket and I cannot even get a free drink, then I do not know what the world is coming to. I do not know if it will make much difference to the airways if the drink is paid for. However, I shall leave the matter at that.

During the Second Reading debate I tried to sketch the part played by the S.A. Airways in the promotion of tourism to South Africa. I pointed out that tourism is the goose that lays the golden egg. I also tried to indicate that the first impression an overseas traveller gets of South Africa is the impression he gets when he boards one of our aircraft in an overseas country.

The South African Airways can be praised for the high quality of its service. Today we have reason to be proud of the far-sightedness of our management and the timeous planning that ensured that we have at our disposal the best aircraft fleet available. In this connection I am thinking of the new aircraft we have, those that have been purchased and those which still have to be delivered. I am thinking for example of the new Airbus and the new Boeing 747 SUD (stretched upper deck) aircraft. Our company is the second company in the world to place an order for these extremely modern giants of the air. I have already mentioned that our airways brings 500 000 tourists to South Africa, and that they spend an amount of R400 million here. Only when the activities of the S.A. Airways are expressed in terms of the effect they have on the country’s balance of payments, can we fully appreciate the contribution of this airline’s activities. In 1980-’81 SAA earned R238 million abroad, conveying passengers and freight. It earned R413 million for South Africa for passengers and freight conveyed from South Africa. This money remained in South Africa. The airline’s total contribution to our balance of payments therefore amounted to R651 million.

I now come to a very important point I want to raise. Today I should like to make an appeal to the patriotism and loyalty of our people to South Africa. Since South Africa now has an unfavourable balance of trade, this is a good time to point out that when South Africans travel with other airlines or convey freight—whether imported or exported goods—with other airlines, the tariffs which are paid accrue to the countries to whom the relevant airlines belong. Without elaborating on this matter, I think it is the duty of every patriotic person in South Africa to support his own airways as far as possible. On the home front, too, our airline is no sluggard. The SAA conveys more than 3 million passengers per annum on domestic flights and offers the tourist a very good and reliable service.

As regards the excursion tariffs I have discussed in the past and during the Second Reading debate, as well as the existing hotel plan, I want to thank the hon. the Minister most sincerely for the announcements he made in this respect today. I am convinced that if we can succeed in filling our aircraft during quiet periods, by means of incentive journeys, our position will be considerably improved and we will also be able to make a far greater impact. I believe that hon. members of this House will agree that the SAA plays a very large part in the development of tourism and the total tourist infrastructure of South Africa.

This brings me to another matter—since there is so little I shall be brief. Today I want to express thanks on behalf of the thousands of sportsmen and women throughout the length and breadth of our country for the provision the S.A. Transport Services makes for promoting sport and recreation in the Republic. An extremely modern recreation club has been built in my constituency of Kempton Park. The Railways Recreation Club, Avion Park, is to be officially opened by Dr. Loubser on the 20th of this month. The Avion Park Club had to be moved from its present position very close to the airport because that site was needed for extension to the technical division at Jan Smuts Airport. This club grew out of the old S.A. Airways Sports Club that was started in 1948 at the Rand Airport. When the club moved to the Jan Smuts Airport in 1953 the name was changed to S.A. Airways Recreation Club. In 1956 the club’s name was finally changed to Avion Park. The year 1960 saw large-scale developments taking place when more funds were voted to promote various sports, for example rugby, soccer, baseball, softball, cricket, tennis and bowls. This club grew and expanded to such an extent that this site is now needed to build this new complex. For the huge complex that arose there, R5,9 million was voted. It is a beautiful complex and I am inviting hon. members to come and see all this for themselves.

What about bowls?

Oh yes, bowls is being catered for. With its present membership exceeding 3 000—and membership is still growing—it is probably one of the largest sport and recreation clubs in the country. For the sake of interest I could point out to hon. members that there is a hall for functions with an area of 448 sq. metres. The auditorium has an area of 1 000 sq. metres, there is a ladies bar with an area of 115 sq. metres. There is a VIP lounge of 115 sq. metres, and a general lounge of 1 500 sq. metres. There are facilities for every type of sport imaginable on that site except, as far as I know, for golf. There are snooker rooms, there are darts rooms and there are six squash courts. Provision is made for almost every type of sport. There is also a conference hall. As regards rugby, I can mention that some of the individual members of this club even undertook an overseas trip last year to play rugby in Wales and in Switzerland. Although the trip was not official they nevertheless acted as ambassadors for South Africa there.

The target shooting club for example has produced five Springboks, and there are three competitors at provincial level. There are also a number of bowls’ players of provincial calibre. As regards target-shooting it could also be mentioned that a Springbok achieved 598 out of a possible 600 points at an international Bisley. Later this year he will receive an award from the State President. The club is also represented by three members in the Northern Transvaal target shooting team. The club has three rugby teams.

I have furnished these particulars in order to give an indication of the tremendous size of this club. However, at the same time I must point out that it is also a tremendous asset; for Kempton Park as well. The club stands as a worthy monument to the hundreds of thousands of sportsmen and women of our S.A. Transport Services. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I find the sympathetic way in which the S.A. Transport Services treats its clients worthy of note. If one takes cognizance of the things which other hon. members mentioned here today, for example in connection with the various schemes for senior citizens and for national servicemen, one cannot but express ones thanks and appreciation for them.

What I find particularly striking however is the special way in which the S.A. Transport Services treats its employees. The budget under discussion demonstrates once again the sound labour relations that have been established in the S.A. Transport Services. In this regard we must remember that this is a very large organization. I am not only referring to the salary increases that have been granted, or to the increase in pensions—for which we are of course extremely grateful, particularly in the case of that category of persons who retired prior to 1970—but also to the further narrowing of the wage gap, to the further training facilities that have been created and to the provision of proper accommodation. It is with pride that I am able to point out that, particularly in rural areas, it is remarkable how many Railway people are living in very decent houses nowadays. There is a variety of housing schemes. In rural areas it frequently happens that Railway people live in the best houses in town. This is a matter I want to express my thanks for.

I think it can be justifiably said that the S.A. Transport Services enables the Railwayman to hold his head high. The other day I was speaking to a businessman who told me he liked to do business with Railway people. According to him they were people who are able to pay, who are reliable and who pay their debts regularly; they were people who lived in decent houses and had attained a respectable status. Of course this is all thanks to the Government and the hon. the Minister we now have.

I also want to refer to the old Sick Fund that has been converted into a medical fund. In this regard I want to dwell for a moment on the new method the S.A. Transport Services has introduced to do justice to everyone in its service, almost 250 000 people. This brings us to the question of work evaluation. This is a system by means of which the efficiency of people is determined with a view to eliminating shortcomings and to increase the productivity of people. This means that the man who renders the best service receives the best compensation. This is a versatile management technique that has been introduced. It is used to solve organizational problems, as well as problems connected with the provision of staff and the determining of salary structures. This technique basically entails the determination of the total work content of a post, so that comparisons can be drawn between the diversity of graded tasks.

It is true that in the S.A. Transport Services there is still a staff shortage in various graduate posts. Nevertheless an attempt is being made to utilize the available labour force in the most beneficial way and to compensate people fairly and to spur them on to increased productivity. It should also be noted that under this system no reduction has been made in the salary of any employee already in the service of the S.A. Transport Services, or former employee. However new corners to the service are appointed at the correct levels of remunerations. According to the principle of work evaluation the work content or grade is measured against various factors and I shall refer to a few of them briefly. There is for example the candidates’ sense of responsibility, the theoretical requirements he has to comply with, his experience, the physical requirements he has to comply with, the conditions of employment, and so on. With the information obtained in this way as a guide the various grades can be compared with each other and the salaries related to this.

The exercise just completed—i.e. the first phase—consisted of a choice of a key grade from each salary hierarchy, for example the driver grade, a constable or a grade I clerk, and the result is that a point value was used to determine the relative position of the key grades within the total structure. On the basis of this, certain salary hierarchies moved up or down within the overall salary structure.

The next step is to examine all grades within the various salary hierarchies in depth and measure them against the same value system. Every grade will then, according to the points it earned, find its correct place in relation to other grades in the salary structure.

The S.A. Transport Services has approximately 270 000 posts and almost 1 000 different grade designations. In such a large organization it is essential that this objective method be used to control the salary structure. As I have already mentioned, this method is aimed at giving additional compensation for increased productivity.

In conclusion I want to bring another matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister. The hon. the Minister treats his clients well and he also treats the employees of the organizations well, but he must please treat the farmers whose farms and the owners whose land is traversed by newly-built railway-lines, in the same sympathetic way and negotiate with them. I also think this happens in most cases. I want to refer specifically to my constituency in which, as a result of the rerouting and doubling of the Richards Bay railway-line, people find that although a railway-line was recently built across their land, they now have to part with more land. Often it is valuable land on which there are cultivated fields. All I am asking the hon. the Minister on behalf of my constituents is that he should treat these people in the same way he treats his clients and his staff.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vryheid made an interesting speech about the use of job evaluation as a management technique in order to increase productivity. There is no doubt in my mind that the recent activities of the Administration, particularly in recent years, have contributed to a considerable increase in the productivity of the manpower employed by the S.A. Transport Services as a whole.

Manpower certainly is a major cost factor in the total budget of the Transport Services, but another very considerable one is capital investment. This was the gravamen of my whole speech during the Second Reading and I wonder whether the hon. the Minister is aware that just on the railway side of the budget in the Estimates before the House he is asking for R1 178 840 000 to be allocated to or budgeted for depreciation and higher replacement costs, for interest on funds and for financing costs. All these costs concern capital and represent 24,85% of the total expenditure on Railways this coming year. It is for this reason that I as an Opposition MP believe that one must attack in regard to matters which one feels should be given special attention by hon. Ministers. I said that the utilization of these capital assets should be looked at. If the hon. the Minister studies my amendment he will see that I did not at all say that he should scrap his capital programme. I appeal to the hon. the Minister when he replies in future to reply to me in regard to what I have actually said. I said it should be reviewed.

The hon. the Minister told me that the utilization of our trucks was better than it was in the United States, in Britain, in Europe and so forth. I do not for one moment dispute that but that is really not something to be proud of because a number of the railway operations in those countries have gone bankrupt over the past few years because of over-capitalization, and because of union feather-bedding in the United States—feather-bedding meaning people wanting to be paid for not doing any work at all. I want to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to a cutting I have here from the Financial Times of the United Kingdom regarding train drivers. It concerns how train drivers in Europe compared in regard to the number of hours they are permitted to work per day. In Great Britain they are only permitted to work eight hours per day. They are not permitted to work longer than that. In South Africa I believe a train driver is not allowed to work more than a maximum of a 12-hour day as it is in the case of West-Germany. The point that I wish to draw to the attention of the hon. the Minister is the fact that things have become so bad in some countries that in regard to West Germany, for instance, which is considered to be the epitome of efficiency in Europe, this press cutting states, inter alia—

I want to draw this fact to the attention of the hon. the Minister to show that those railways may also have been run inefficiently in the past and may not have taken total costs into consideration. However, in this same newspaper there is, interestingly enough, a reference to the profits of Swissair having increased during the past financial year. In this regard it is stated—

If I remember correctly, that was the second leg of my amendment. I asked the hon. the Minister to look into the operation to see whether he could cut costs. As far as the German railways are concerned—I believe they are called the Bundesbahn—which own 25% of Lufthansa, they have been running into trouble and I find it rather interesting to note that they have recently appointed a chief executive from outside the Bundesbahn possibly in order to introduce some new ideas in connection with cost savings. This gentleman they have employed happens to have been a top executive of the German division of IBM. We in these Opposition benches try to give the hon. the Minister some new ideas in the hope that some of them may be practicable. One idea I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister is that possibly the Railway Board should consist of some highly qualified men in the sphere of business and transport from outside. It should not consist of old retired politicians, with all due respect to my ex-colleagues who are members of the Railway Board. I love them dearly but I wonder whether they are the right kind of people to assist the General Manager and the staff. Perhaps commerce and industry could be approached to put forward a panel of three names and thus allow the hon. the Minister to select his Railway Board members so that he will have people on that board who are business-orientated and efficiency-orientated. The fact remains that, regardless of what the revenue earned per truck overseas is, in relation to our capital investment—not only in respect of trucks but also in regard to railway stations, sidings and all that sort of infrastructure—the revenue earned per truck, whether it be R38 or R40 per day or whatever it is, is too low.

It would have thought the hon. the Minister would have looked at my amendment and thought that maybe it had merit and was worth considering. How can one for instance correct the tremendous losses that are experienced on rail? It can be done in two ways. One can either increase revenue or reduce costs. That is what is done in business. Surely the hon. the Minister will agree with that. How can one then increase revenue? The hon. member for Kempton Park said that tourists coming to our country prefer to fly around the country. We know the Blue Train is a great success. Why then do we not run a similar train between Durban and Johannesburg during the daytime so that people can see our beautiful scenery? They can then maybe travel by Blue Train To Cape Town, fly to Durban and then take the Natal Blue Train back to Johannesburg.

But the Blue Train also shows a loss.

If it shows a loss, and at the same time there is a six month waiting period to get onto the train, then maybe the fares are too low.

All right, I will remember that. [Interjections.]

I am talking about a luxury train. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is cheaper by air or by Blue Train to Johannesburg?

It is cheaper to fly.

It is cheaper to fly, and yet there is a waiting list of six months to get onto the Blue Train. I could not even get onto the Blue Train this year.

It is a snob train.

Well, if people want to pay for snobbery then expand the utilization of the railway routes we have in South Africa to cater for them.

Talking about increasing utilization, I want to say to the hon. the Minister that there are a lot of first class passengers, especially suburban passengers, who are leaving rail. The reason why they are leaving rail is the conditions on railway stations. I am sure the System Manager in Durban has a whole file of letters from me in this regard. In fact, the previous System Manager accompanied me on a trip on a train and I pointed out to him some of the problems experienced by passengers. Last week I had a similar letter from people in the Peninsula stating that the conditions on stations for first class passengers have deteriorated to the stage where first class passengers no longer want to travel by rail. Why is this so? There are loiterers on the stations and muggings take place. I believe we need to take a good look at this problem. I know the Administration is considering limiting access to stations and I think this is the key to the whole problem. We should limit access to stations to passengers only and there should be better supervision of passengers on stations. [Time expired.]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Amanzimtoti raised two specific matters. In the first place he asked the hon. the Minister to re-investigate the capital investment. I am confident that the hon. the Minister and his top management are constantly looking into this aspect. The second aspect the hon. member touched on was that of cutting down on certain costs. In this respect the S.A. Transport Services is also doing its utmost.

I want to demonstrate by means of an example that the S.A. Transport Services is doing its very best. I want to refer to the use of three-deck wagons. The use of these wagons has particular advantages for producers and dispatchers of sheep. The most important advantages are of an economic nature. The fact that ordinary VZ wagons have been converted into triple-deck wagons for the conveyance of sheep increased the carrying capacity from 120 to 360 sheep. The service could therefore be introduced at approximately half the normal tariff for small stock. If that is not cutting down costs, then I do not know what is. What is also important is that the S.A. Transport Services did not appropriate the cost savings brought about by the three-deck wagon for itself, but passed it on to the consumer. In this way the S.A. Transport caused R2 107 404 to end up indirectly in the pocket of the dispatcher in just one year, 1980. This happened because during 1980 1 713 199 head of small stock were conveyed by rail, of which 1 023 840, i.e. 60%, were conveyed in these trucks. If it is assumed that the average distance over which these animals are conveyed is 1 079 kilometres and if one takes into account the tariff rebate applicable on these wagons, and the rapid transportation of animals, which eliminates the costs involved in feed and water in transit, then more than R2 million ended up in the pockets of the dispatchers. This amount represents R2,06 per small stock unit, which is a significant amount in these times of high production costs.

The amount of time taken to convey the animals from the farm to the abattoir has a direct effect on mass loss and for this reason rapid transportation is of particular importance, especially for producers in remote areas and for this reason producers in remote areas who are dependent on rail transport are also given the opportunity to make use of the most profitable markets. The only prerequisite is that these three-deck wagons must reach their destination within 48 hours because the livestock in the three-deck wagon are given no food or water. In spite of this drawback or restriction, sheep can be conveyed for a distance of 1 249 kilometres, i.e. from Laingsburg to Pretoria, within 48 hours. Together with the tariff the user of the three-deck wagon enjoys, the brief transportation time, as I have already told you, and the fact that the livestock need not be given water and food has the further advantage of a minimum mass loss. In practice it has however been found that one dispatcher seldom sends a full wagon-load, in other words 360 sheep, to a market. There are various reasons for this, which I do not want to go into now. To intercept and overcome this problem each level is divided into four compartments so that each compartment can accommodate only 30 sheep. For this reason up to 12 different dispatchers can use the same truck without having to worry that their livestock will get mixed up in transit. Although one person is responsible for ordering the truck, all the users’ names, addresses, the number of sheep and relevant compartments into which the sheep are loaded are recorded on the consignment note. In this way dispatchers with small numbers of sheep can also share in the economic advantage of a lower tariff. What it amounts to in practice is that the local marketing agent orders the trucks, and loads his clients’ livestock into it.

It has also been proved beyond doubt that the carcases of sheep conveyed in these trucks have fewer bruises than the sheep conveyed in the existing large wagons. This can be attributed chiefly to the fact that these decks, as I have already mentioned, are subdivided into different compartments and thus prevent large-scale congestion which can cause bruising and even death. The non-slip floors in the wagons also play an important role in preventing bruises. The good condition in which the sheep are off-loaded at the abattoir is ample proof of this. I also want to mention that the non-slip floors in the wagon are easy to clean, but what is more important is that they have been installed in such a way that water does not accumulate in puddles on these floors and does not leak through from one level to another either. This has the great advantage that it reduces pollution of the wool, which in turn improves the quality of the fleece. The use of the three-deck wagons is unlimited in the sense that it is not limited to certain despatching or receiving stations. The only condition is that it must reach its destination within 48 hours. In addition, if such a wagon is ordered, it must be ordered not less than seven days before it is needed from the local station master in order to ensure that the wagon can be conveyed as part of a fast train. In addition, these wagons need not necessarily be sent to abattoirs either, but can even be used to convey sheep to other grazing areas.

At the beginning of my speech I said that the S.A. Transport Services is a dynamic organization which is constantly undertaking research to keep abreast of the transport needs of the country and to adopt the necessary measures, within its financial means, to meet the needs of the consumers and to adapt transportation methods. By introducing these wagons the S.A. Transport Services sought to make a more efficient wagon available for the conveyance of small stock, to make the conveyance of livestock less unprofitable and also to relieve the cost pressure on the livestock producer in respect of transport. By making use of measures such as rapid transportation, reduced tariffs and good condition on arrival at the abattoir, the S.A. Transport Services has succeeded in its aim. For this reason I want to appeal to our producers this afternoon to give this service their wholehearted support.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow upon the argument of the hon. member for Smithfield. I fully endorse what he had to say about the two-deck and three-deck wagons. It strengthens the plea I want to make, because I come from a part of the world that has such vast expanses that it is very difficult to make use of this excellent service. However, this does not detract in any way from the excellence of the service provided by the S.A. Transport Services.

Road transport services play an important role in supplementing, by way of a kind of umbrella coverage, the effective service provided by the S.A. Transport Services throughout the length and breadth of the Republic of South Africa. Usually the road transport services cater to the remote communities, of which I have many in my constituency. I am thinking for example of Prince Albert, Merweville, Fraserburg, Loxton and Vosburg, places up to 115 to 120 km from the nearest rail or road junction. It is also true that the road transport service must meet the needs of all these communities. It must supply their necessities of life and also get their products to the market. Owing to the nature of farming in this area, transportation is frequently sporadic. It is seasonably bound and wool is one of the main products; so, too, is meat, in which case it is not practical to make use of the road transport service. It frequently happens that road transport services vehicles have to run uneconomically, but this afternoon we heard here from the hon. the Minister that one cannot always use every wagon or in this case every freight carrier of the road transport service productively and at full capacity. However, these communities that are far from the markets, have to be provided with this service, whether it is the means of production or the products themselves that have to be conveyed. In addition, it is in the interests of the country that this infrastructure should be retained in remote rural areas. As I said, the road transport service plays a tremendous part in this regard.

I shall prefer not to mention the name of the place to which I am now going to refer, otherwise the department may transfer that official. At one of the small stations I was speaking to an official who has four children at school. At some stage his children will have to attend a high school elsewhere, and that it will cost him R110 per child per term. It will therefore cost him R440 per term or R1 760 per annum for his four children. However, I was pleased to learn from that official that he would be able to afford it. One is gratified to know that that man does not mind providing a service to the community in that remote town. A farmer I know very well happened to arrive at that moment. I know he never praises anyone who does not deserve it. Nevertheless he said to me: “Let me introduce you to the best S.A. Transport Services official in the Republic of South Africa”. That is the kind of railwayman we have on the platteland.

However, this afternoon I want to address a very serious request to the hon. the Minister. These remote communities are dependent on road transport services for the conveyance of their post, medicine and food. There are also hostels, hospitals and homes for the aged in these rural towns, and it causes a disruption if fresh vegetables and fruit are only delivered every second or third day. I am in favour of uneconomic services being eliminated as far as possible, but in my opinion it is not possible to curtail road transport services to these remote places without harming the rural communities.

The S.A. Transport Services has a wonderful history as regards research and improvement of services, and I want to suggest that lighter vehicles or lighter trailers could be used instead of the traditional 10 ton vehicle and trailer. As I mentioned, a journey of up to 250 or 280 kilometres must frequently be undertaken to carry one load from the junction to its destination. I concede that there is not work every day for these heavy vehicles, but there is work for the light vehicles. This will meet a real need in transporting fresh produce and smaller quantities of products. I have already mentioned that wool and meat are the main export products of this region, but here and there one also finds smaller quantities of vegetables, or cream, which are dependent on regular transport.

When the mail bus, as we call it, arrives, one neighbour phones another and asks if Faan’s train has gone past. If the answer is in the affirmative the man goes to town to fetch an urgent postal item. It is important for him to know that the post will be delivered today and tomorrow as well, and that is why I am appealing to the hon. the Minister not to curtail these services.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat must please excuse me if I do not follow up on his line of thought, because basically his plea was for a local area. Perhaps I could say that at one stage I thought he was going to move a little closer to us physically, but that was not to be.

I should like to speak about the harbour in Port Elizabeth. Port Elizabeth has many great attributes, but many of its facilities are not used to the best advantage of Port Elizabeth and its people. One of the attributes— and I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to these attributes—is Algoa Bay which is, as we know, a bay in the Indian Ocean. It is therefore a warm-water bay with islands and both game fish and various kinds of bottom-feeders. Secondly, we have a good deal of wind in Port Elizabeth, and I am sure hon. members will not be surprised to hear this. [Interjections.] I believe that these two factors, if properly utilized, could turn Algoa Bay and Port Elizabeth into one of the foremost recreational resorts in the Southern Hemisphere, for both yachtsmen and game fishermen. It could attract international events, with teams from throughout the world. It could be a show-case for South Africa, but before that can happen we need facilities to cater for such events. In short, we need a small-boat harbour, and the only person who could make this a reality is the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs.

The current situation is that the deep-keel yachts use the commercial harbour in Port Elizabeth. We are very grateful for this facility but it does, of course, have certain shortcomings. First of all it is not as clean as the average yacht-owner would like it to be, and this is to a large extent because of the iron ore dumps. As soon as one has a westerly wind blowing, the ore dust blows across onto the yachts. I just want to add in passing—and I should like the hon. the Minister’s comment on this—that it would appear that the spray system that is used to damp down those ore dumps is perhaps not as efficient as it has been in the past. There seems to be a certain resurgence of this problem in Port Elizabeth. When the problem was first attended to, the solution seemed to be fairly effective, but in recent months it does not appear to have been quite as effective.

The other problems are, of course, that attractive recreational surroundings are absent in a harbour area. There is also the conflict that arises with commercial traffic, and I believe that this is also a very great problem here in the Cape Town harbour. The smaller yachts, the Hobie Cats and wind-surfers, currently use what is known as Hobie Beach at Humewood. There again the problem is protection from the elements. In order to overcome these problems, it was recently proposed—I think they are starting to build it already—to build a barrier of floating tyres, in other words a sort of tyre harbour. Whilst we welcome this—there seems to be quite a lot of merit in it—it nevertheless does have certain problems. Apparently the idea is to construct a breakwater of some 5 000 tyres that will stretch for a length of 100 metres and be anchored 100 metres from the beach, providing calm conditions for boats entering the water. A report in the Evening Post of 30 January says the following—

It goes on to say—

This is all very well, but there are possible environmental problems, though the environmentalists have predominantly agreed to this. In the event of the tyres breaking up—and one does not know how long they will last who is going to reassemble the 5 000 tyres and make sure that the whole area is kept clean? It is, however, an interesting solution, but I believe it is only a temporary solution to the problem. One must also remember that the solution only affects Hobie Cats and wind-surfers. It does not solve the problem for deep-keel yachts or sport fishing vessels. The best solution for the whole area would undoubtedly be a small-boat harbour. One must also consider the possibility of this harbour being used for sports fishing.

We have without doubt a large number of sporting fish within reach of Algoa Bay. We have broadbill swordfish, marlin, tunny and other fish of that nature. We do, however, need decent facilities to enable fishermen to go out. There is a ski-boat club at Noordhoek whose members do go out to a certain extent. I intend speaking in the discussion on the Vote of Agriculture and Fisheries on this particular subject, when I shall direct a plea to the hon. the Minister’s successor in that particular post with a view to investigating more fully the sport fishing potential of the area.

I believe we should investigate more fully the possibility of a small-boat harbour in Port Elizabeth. First of all, we must decide whether it is a practical idea. I understand it was mooted before the construction of the new container berth in Port Elizabeth. Unfortunately, it was not agreed to at that stage because then it would have been relatively cheap to provide as it would have been part of an overall scheme. I believe we should now start an investigation, which should include investigation of sport. As I have said, I shall be speaking to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries about this.

There is a possibility that private investment could be utilized to help in providing this harbour. I imagine that the possibility also exists that municipal investments could be utilized. The spin-off for Port Elizabeth would be considerable. There would be a spin-off in terms of tourism, chandlering businesses and boat building and repairing businesses. These businesses today, not only in South Africa but throughout the world, have grown into extremely big concerns with a turnover of millions of rand per annum. It could become a major centre for cruising yachts. In Britain, in the Mediterranean and along the Brittany coast large sums of money have been expended on yacht marinas. These are now being fully utilized. They become more expensive the better the facilities, but apparently they are economic and they are very well utilized. I do not believe that we in South Africa should fall behind what the rest of the world is doing in this particular sphere.

I understand that the hon. the Minister and his department are considering a small-boat harbour in Cape Town. I applaud this idea, but I believe that Port Elizabeth should enjoy priority in this regard.

And Mossel Bay should receive priority over Port Elizabeth.

There are many facilities in False Bay stretching from Simon’s Town right round to Gordon’s Bay. On the Atlantic side there is of course Cape Town harbour itself and a small harbour at Hout Bay. I would ask the hon. the Minister if he would be prepared to set up a committee to investigate the feasibility of such a small-boat harbour in Port Elizabeth. I believe that on this committee should be represented, apart from the S.A. Transport Services, also the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Universities of Port Elizabeth and Rhodes, the municipality of Port Elizabeth and the Cape Department of Nature Conservation. If such a facility is feasible and is constructed, I have no doubt that it will be of great benefit to Port Elizabeth and its people as well as to South Africa as a whole.

In the time remaining to me I want to refer again to a subject I raised during the discussion of the Additional Appropriation before the hon. member for Durban Point made his biggest contribution this session by suggesting I was out of order, which I was. I had to stop discussing that subject at that point. The last point I wanted to make in connection with the level crossings in Port Elizabeth along the line of the Apple Express, that narrow-gauge railway line, concerned the compulsory stops required for this railway line. The AA has calculated that, with petrol costing 54 cents per litre, a stop from an initial speed of 60 kilometres per hour costs 1,56 cents. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, Mr. Malcomess, says that Port Elizabeth has a lot of wind. Surely the windmill people, the Malcomesses, welcome the wind. Unfortunately the hon. member did not make a very wonderful speech and therefore I shall not react to it further.

I should like to thank the hon. the Minister for the concession he granted to the older railway pensioners. He will remember that in this debate last year I made an appeal on behalf of the pensioners who retired before December 1973. The hon. the Minister felt compassion for these people, who are really in distress. On behalf of thousands of those people I want to thank the hon. the Minister for that increase of 18% which he has granted them.

Actually it is 20%.

Well, then, 20%. That is even better. It is no art granting such a concession when money is plentiful. However, this year the hon. the Minister had to cut his coat from cloth which has become very narrow and meagre this year. For that we thank him. The relief to pensioners amounts to R16 million. This is not to be sneered at. The position of older pensioners has now improved to such an extent that on 1 April they will have achieved parity with pensioners who retired at a later stage with the same salary that the old guard of pensioner received when they were still in the service. For that, too, we thank the hon. the Minister.

Now that the hon. the Minister is being so open-handed, this is perhaps the right moment to ask him for other things as well. My Bloemfontein colleagues and I are of the opinion that Bloemfontein—and the Free State as well—is being neglected in many respects. Among other things, Bloemfontein is neglected with regard to transport services. The J. B. M. Hertzog Airport in Bloemfontein nowadays handles 10 times more passengers than when that airport was opened in 1961. Since then, there have been no improvements to the facilities at that airport. In the past five years the number of passengers using that airport annually has increased by 45 000 per year, so that at present, 200 000 passengers use the J. B. M. Hertzog Airport annually. This large number of passengers, from all parts of the country, are now starting to complain about the inadequate, antiquated and crowded facilities at that airport. That airport has to make do with discarded furniture from Jan Smuts airport. There is not a single lock-up garage for passengers there. Some hon. members’ cars sometimes have to stand there in the sun for weeks. There is no roof under which they can park their cars. We are not jealous of other airports. All we are asking for is our share, please.

I want to congratulate Mr. Jacobs, the airport manager at the J. B. M. Hertzog Airport, for trying to take the sting out of the inconvenience experienced there, by growing the most beautiful gardens and flowers there, more beautiful than at any other airport in South Africa. People who visit the airport, are moved to ecstasy by the beautiful flowers there. The hon. the Minister himself once said that the flowers at the J. B. M. Hertzog Airport is something to be experienced. We thank the hon. the Minister for having seen them.

I had rather look at the flowers than at the airport. [Interjections.]

You see, Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what I mean. All we can do is cultivate flowers to make up for the facilities we do not have. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to help us. A model province such as the Free State cannot have an airport with such shabby and “verkrampte” facilities.

Order! I should just like to point out to the hon. member that airports really fall under the Transport Vote.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have now dealt with this matter. [Interjections.]

Furthermore, I wish to ask the hon. the Minister to give renewed attention to flights to and from Bloemfontein. Some time ago the flight schedule was changed in such a manner that people had to fly from Bloemfontein via Kimberley to Cape Town. When they return to Bloemfontein, they again have to fly via Kimberley. There are only three direct flights between Cape Town and Bloemfontein. The other 28 flights all fly via Kimberley. This is especially time-consuming for businessmen, because this almost doubles the flying time of these flights. We accept that the Airways probably have good reasons for doing this, but nevertheless I want to ask the hon. the Minister if it would not be possible for a few of the northbound flights to land at Bloemfontein first, thereafter fly to Kimberley and from there to Jan Smuts. I also want to ask whether the southbound flights could also land at Kimberley, then fly to Bloemfontein and thence to Cape Town. This would give us more direct flights to Cape Town. To my hon. colleague for Kimberley over here I just wish to say that by this time we have really seen enough of Kimberley’s Big Hole. [Interjections.] This proposal of mine would also benefit the people of Kimberley in that they would have more direct flights from Kimberley to Johannesburg. When these aircraft do not land at Bloemfontein, they fly directly from Kimberley to Johannesburg. By this time these hon. gentlemen of Kimberley are also surely tired of Bloemfontein’s white horse against the mountain, put there by the English soldiers during the Anglo-Boer War. [Interjections.] You see, I am pleading on their behalf as well.

I have one final request, perhaps the most important, to put to the hon. the Minister. I have heard on good authority that from some time later on in the year the Blue Train is going to operate four times a week as a result of the tremendous demand from overseas visitors in particular. It seems to me that the time is now ripe for me to repeat my previous request. This is that this Blue Train should travel alternately via Bloemfontein and Kimberley. The route Pretoria-Vereeniging-Kroonstad-Bloemfontein-Springfontein-De Aar could then be considered as a new route. The large number of tourists who are so keen to travel on this show train of ours will also enjoy travelling through a different part of our country, perhaps a more attractive part. This alternative route will take them through the heart of the Free State, past the Free State Goldfields, and also the picturesque Verwoerd Dam. I have requested in the past that the Blue Train should run through the Free State via Bloemfontein.

During the daytime or at night?

I just wish to say to the hon. the Minister that it does not matter whether it is by day or by night, but that on the previous occasion that I made this request, I was given the astonishing excuse that if the train were to travel via Bloemfontein, the sun would be wrong for it. Therefore, I say: Bring the train through Bloemfontein at night, but bring it through Bloemfontein.

I do not expect quick replies to all these requests I have made. I would much rather have the hon. the Minister giving due consideration to these possibilities and replying to me in this regard at a later stage. Perhaps I have confronted him with these requests too suddenly. This I promise: If the hon. the Minister complies with these requests of ours, we Free Staters will bestow upon him the freedom of the Free State.

Mr. Chairman, I do not quite know how to react to the previous speaker, as he obviously has so many problems there in the Free State. I can only suggest that a bottle of Bols brandy be substituted for the white horse of the whisky drinkers. In any case, brandy is healthier than whisky. Secondly, I wish to say that seeing that the Chair has ruled that reference to the airport at Bloemfontein is out of order here, the Minister may possibly come and take a look at East London’s airport, which is much smaller and overcrowded. I should just like to tell the hon. the Minister that we who have to fly over the Free State, are not all that anxious to get off at Bloemfontein every time. Please just let us fly past and get to where we are going.

This afternoon I wish to speak in general. The S.A. Transport Services are doing a tremendous amount for sound human and peaceful labour relations in this country. I should like to deal with two of these aspects very briefly, since recognition is not always given to this fact, perhaps because the truth is not always known.

The first is the narrowing of the wage gap between Whites on the one hand and Coloureds, Asians and Blacks on the other. The following salary adjustments have been made over the past few years: In July 1976 Whites received 10%; Coloureds and Indians, at least 12,5%; and Blacks, 15%. In April 1979 Whites received 10%; Coloureds and Indians, 12,5%; and Blacks 15%. In April 1980 Whites received an average of 12,7%; Coloureds and Indians, an average of 15%; and Blacks once again a higher average of 17,5%. In April 1981 Whites received an average of 12,5% and Coloureds, Indians and Blacks an average of 15%. This year Whites are receiving 15% and Coloureds, Indians and Blacks 17,5%.

Owing to the fact that a great number of Coloured, Indian and Black workers is involved, we must all realize that the sudden elimination of the wage gap is, from a financial point of view, just not possible at this stage. The salaries of Coloureds, Indians and Blacks have been adjusted percentagewise over the past few years, however, and this has meant that great progress has been made with the narrowing of the wage gap.

In addition the Government has established a fixed programme for the elimination of the wage gap which is to be introduced from the highest cadre to the lowest ranks. The S.A. Transport Services are committed to carrying out the programme of the Government, and apart from larger percentage salary adjustments, the Government programme for the elimination of inequalities in salary is being strictly adhered to. Up to April 1981 progress was made up to phase 6 of the programme, and the first group of Transport Service workers of colour—there are almost 650 of these workers—were placed on a par with Whites as regards salaries. It is expected that by 1984 equal pay for equal work will have been achieved for all staff on the S.A. Transport Services.

The question now arises why the Opposition avoids these facts like the plague. Why do they and their Press not blazon this abroad? Are they so inimical to the truth that the truth should always be avoided as far as they are concerned? These are facts of which the world should take cognizance.

An in-depth study was made of the matter during December 1979. The study showed that it would cost approximately R258 500 000 a year to eliminate the gap between the salaries of White employees and those of Coloureds, Indians and Blacks in the S.A. Transport Services at one stroke and at the same time to equalize the conditions of service. I do not know whether the Opposition would have been in favour of such a step, despite the noise they make every day, if we had come forward with this huge expenditure this year, even if we had had the necessary funds. Let us consider the position of overtime, Sunday time and related costs. Where salary parity has already been achieved, the scales on which Coloureds, Indians and Blacks are remunerated for overtime and Sunday time, are calculated on the same basis as those for Whites. The same principle applies with regard to costs. The indications are that concessions which have been made since the in-depth study, have reduced the additional expenditure connected with the establishment of salary parity in the S.A. Transport Services to approximately R247 million. This is already a reduction of R11,5 million. These facts reflect a wonderful achievement by the S.A. Transport Services. I again want to ask the newspapers which support the Opposition, to take note of these facts and blazon these facts abroad, instead of their usual poison.

I briefly want to say something about the employment of Coloureds in the Western Cape. A decision by the Government caused all work in the Western Cape to be reserved for Coloureds. When insufficient Coloureds are available, Blacks with the necessary residence qualifications, or Black contract workers may be recruited on a temporary basis. Because of the excellent salaries offered by private institutions, and the fact that Coloureds in general are not interested in doing heavy manual labour, the S.A. Transport Services have had problems over the years to fill all the posts for Coloureds, and continuous use has had to be made for local Black and contract workers. However, Coloureds are available outside the Peninsula area, and two temporary hostels have been erected at Muldersvlei and Eersterivier respectively to accommodate single Coloureds who have been recruited elsewhere. These two hostels, which accommodate 230 and 360 residents respectively, are fully occupied. Coloured labour is more readily available at present, and this is being fully utilized in the spirit of Government policy. This has brought about a substantial change in the labour pattern in the Western Cape, as statistics show. In December 1967, 6 177 Coloureds and 4 428 Blacks were employed as against the figure of 10 224 Coloureds and 3 000 Blacks for December 1981. There has been a reasonably large reversal of the previous trend.

I should like to indicate further what the S.A. Transport Services are doing for the Coloureds in the Western Cape. A major problem being experienced in the Peninsula area, is the need for housing. Altogether 42 houses in Coloured areas in the Peninsula which were previously occupied by Whites, were allocated to Coloureds after they had been vacated by Whites. As funds become available, more houses will be constructed for Coloureds in the Peninsula. In order to provide for the housing scarcity, a modern staff residence is being planned at Philippi where single Coloureds can be accommodated.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister announced last year at the congress of the Griqualand West Regional Development Association that the extension of the Sishen-Saldanha railway line over Kuruman to the Rand is a viable proposition. The hon. the Minister further stated that a Cabinet committee on economic affairs would make the final decision on this railway line as soon as comment had been received from the various State departments. This is a railway line which will run from Saldanha Bay, the most ideal harbour on the southern tip of Africa, through the mineral-rich North Western Cape, Northern Cape and Western Transvaal to the Rand, the economic heart of South Africa. I wish to ask the hon. the Minister whether comment has already been received from the various State departments concerning this railway line and whether a final decision has been reached. Then, too, I wish to thank the hon. the Minister for the initiatives of his department which enabled him to make this announcement concerning the railway line, which is an absolute necessity for the development of a future South Africa. I also wish to thank Dr. Loubser, who is now retiring, for his contribution, his initiatives in connection with this railway line, and I venture to express the confidence that this railway line will finally come into being during the lifetime of Dr. Grové, who is a product of this area, and that the trains can glide along it and so that the Blue Train of the hon. member for Bloemfontein East can also glide through the heart of the Kalahari to the southern tip of South Africa.

The building of a railway line is essential in the present development situation, especially in the area which I represent. It is a fast developing area, especially as far as mining development is concerned. Tswana labour is used extensively, especially in the Sishen area. Approximately 4 000 Tswana labourers have already been settled at a place like Sishen, which is approximately 60 km from the Bophuthatswana border. This mineral-rich region, the embryo of future development, is situated right next to Bophuthatswana. It borders on an independent neighbouring state and affords us the ideal opportunity to settle the Tswana workers in their own fatherland and to bring them to work daily by means of the express service of the S.A. Transport Services. It affords us the opportunity of settling these Tswanas in their own homes, with their own families, within their own fatherland, and of bringing them to work daily by means of the express service which the hon. the Minister has spoken about, and which now operates between Johannesburg and Durban, so that they can spend the evenings at home with their families. This is the first reason for my request that this railway line be expedited.

My second reason concerns Kuruman, a beautiful little town with 6 000 White residents, which the hon. the Minister visited last year. At a bus terminus which is situated in the heart of Kuruman, an average of 10 000 Tswanas board and alight from the buses either to do shopping, or to work, or because they are on their way to places of employment in Sishen, Postmasburg, Hotazel or other places in this area. This terminus and the site on which it is situated, lacks the necessary facilities, is unsightly and has already become a source of friction. Thousands of Tswanas alight at this bus terminus on Sundays. This bus terminus is close to two churches and is close to the houses of our people in Kuruman. It is very clear to me that another site will have to be found for this bus terminus for these thousands of people, who will increase in numbers in the years to come. The ideal place for the erection of such a terminus is at the new railway station. Our town council is prepared to provide facilities there, facilities which will afford shelter for these Black people who use this bus terminus every day. In order to assist our town council in their planning, it is essential that the site for the railway station be identified as soon as possible. It must be identified so that the town council can proceed with the planning and construction of the facilities. This afternoon, therefore, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister and his dynamic department to identify the site for the railway station at Kuruman as soon as possible, so that our town council can proceed to establish a terminus which could be such as to eliminate friction between the growing number of Tswanas who visit Kuruman daily and pass through Kuruman to other places of employment, and that it can be removed from the heart of the town, where it could cause problems. A place must be created where the Tswanas can be settled happily. I hope and trust that in expediting this whole process, the S.A. Transport Services will succeed in carrying out the policy of the Government, viz. that the Black man, in this case the Tswana, be settled in his own fatherland and can travel to his place of employment daily at, for instance, Sishen and Postmasburg, on the express service of the S.A. Transport Services, and at night return to sleep in his own home and in his own country.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister will undoubtedly react to the representations made by the hon. member for Kuruman. This afternoon I want to deal with other matters affecting the S.A. Transport Services.

†In the first place I want to say that I can think of no-one who will not welcome most heartily the concessions made to our national servicemen and women in the form of a 30% concession on the airways and a 50% concession on the railways. In so far as the air concession is concerned, the 30% concession applies only to nominated flights. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to give consideration to the possibility of servicemen being accommodated on partially empty aeroplanes. There are occasions—I have seen it here in Cape Town as well as in Johannesburg—where there are queues of servicemen standing at the counters waiting to see if all seats are taken up in the aeroplanes. Where, for example, it is the last flight and the aeroplane is not full, I can see little reason why—because no other passengers will be excluded—they cannot be easily accommodated. In those cases, where they have not booked two months ahead, I think they should be accommodated free. In countries such as Israel and other overseas countries where the situations are similar to ours, it is a known thing that servicemen and servicewomen enjoy free flights on certain occasions. I do not think that we can afford to have young servicemen and servicewomen wishing to fly all over the Republic every weekend to go home to their families. That is not right for their morale, it is quite wrong for discipline and for other reasons it is unnecessary. On the other hand, I do think that if they are limited to three or four flights a year then those servicemen and service-women should be accommodated on our aeroplanes in seats not required by the ordinary travelling public.

Then as far as the rail concessions are concerned, I want to ask the hon. the Minister if he will not give consideration to the restoration of the serviceman’s pass. During the war people in uniform were allowed free passes on the railways. I think that the step that is now being advocated by the hon. the Minister of reducing the fares by 50% by way of a concession is a good one, but I cannot for the life of me see why the limited number of servicemen who use our trains cannot be accommodated by way of a free pass to their destination, again on a limited basis, perhaps so many times a year.

I want to make a further appeal to the hon. the Minister, and that is in respect of a scholars’ concession. For many, many years there was a scholars’ concession to enable children to go to school outside of their area. There is at present a limited concession. I now find that on suburban lines, those serving the northern suburbs and also the southern suburbs here in the Peninsula, a distinction is made between the fares paid by such scholars under the age of 12 and those who are over 12. In my view that is senseless. A child is at school, and he should be given a concession. I would, therefore, appeal for one of two kinds of concessions. The one could be the scholar’s concession that all children attending school could enjoy, while the other could be a special excursion fare for scholars on holiday.

As far as the elimination of level crossings is concerned, there apparently is a priority list, but I must say that the level crossings in my area seem to figure very low on that list. As far as I can remember, over the past 20 odd years there has only been one of seven or eight level crossings in the Southern Peninsula that was not eliminated and replaced by a bridge but in fact closed down, and that was the level crossing at Muizenberg. Previously there were gates at this crossing, but now it has been closed altogether. That leaves about six or seven level crossings in the Southern Peninsula and I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to instal half-gates and lights at these crossings. For example, the level crossing to Fish Hoek beach is a very popular one and is used by tens of thousands of people. There we have the old-fashioned light system, but there is not a half-gate system, whereas at Lakeside, at the level crossing leading to the Zandvlei playing area, there is at least a flashing light and also a half-gate system. I know that the Fish Hoek municipality is making representations to the hon. the Minister for a half-gate system to be installed at the local level crossing. I sincerely hope that the hon. the Minister will give attention to this request which I support wholeheartedly because it is very necessary that these improvements should be made. There have been fatal accidents at that level crossing and it is one of the most popular level crossings on the whole of the suburban line between Cape Town and Simonstown.

As far as the southern suburbs line is concerned, all the people living south of Wynberg are entirely dependent on this line for their transport if they do not use cars. If their children have to attend schools, they use the trains unless, of course, they attend a local school. We are, however, naturally very concerned about the type of service that we have on the Southern Peninsula line, although I think it has improved enormously during the period that I have been in this House. For many years I complained about it, but I think that complaints these days are minimal and that the service has undoubtedly improved considerably. It is, however, a busy service and particularly so during holidays and weekends when, in addition to the communting traffic, there is also traffic to the beaches.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North made a plea yesterday for a fully-integrated service on the Southern Peninsula line. I want to say to him that his party may stand for integrated schools, integrated residential areas and for integrated facilities at all levels, to the extent that our South African society will not even be recognizable—no one would be able to recognize the South African society if that party were ever to have a say in the administration of an area such as Johannesburg—but his way of life and the way of life of his party is not the traditional South African way of life. We say that where there are expensive facilities, facilities that cannot be duplicated such as the Blue Train or the Drakensberg Express, there economic standards can apply and one can have mixed facilities. However, when the masses of the workers travel, when they go to the industrial areas to work or from the outlying areas to the cities to earn their daily bread, at that level one cannot have integrated facilities. I would suggest that before young members such as the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North get up in this House and talk about matters about which they are completely unfamiliar, they should also consider the wishes and the desires of those people who use the suburban services here in the Peninsula. What is needed in respect of both the northern suburban line and the southern suburbs line is more peak-hour trains serving the Coloured and Black townships. That is necessary. If the hon. member were to stand up here and make a plea for more trains to serve those people who use them at peak hours, there would be some sense in his argument. His idea, however, that we must change the commuter service of the southern Peninsula line and the northern areas line into the sort of integrated Zimbabwean service that he wants in South Africa generally, is not something that is wanted here in the Peninsula.

I want to make a last appeal to the hon. the Minister to give consideration to the appointment of more railway police to look after the suburban lines. Many of the conductors and inspectors on the suburban lines complain that they are in fear of their lives, particularly on Friday and Saturday nights when they are confronted by knife-wielding gangs, mainly of Coloured people. Those people need protection, yet there is an inadequate force of railway policemen.

There is another area, I am afraid, in which the railway police are conspicuous by their absence, and that is in the subways leading to some of the stations. The Wynberg station is one station at which it is particularly bad. At Plumstead station the conditions are not very good and at Retreat the position is bad. At Steenberg, Muizenberg and Kalk Bay the situation is also bad. I have been to see these stations at night. When women and young children return from cinemas or discos on the late trains on Friday and Saturday nights, there must be railway policemen to see that they are not waylaid by the gangs that frequent those trains.

The same argument, of course, applied to the peak-hour trains on Friday nights when people, with their pay packets in their pockets, are going back to their homes in the Black and Coloured townships. This also applies to White stations that serve Coloured townships, for example Retreat and Steenberg. There must be more evidence of railway police seeing that the people concerned are not molested by “skollies”.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Simonstown has stated his case in his usual excellent way. It is not necessary for me to elaborate on the matters which he dealt with, except to say that I support his request for further concessions for our men in the Defence Force.

On behalf of my constituency and the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage metropolis, I should like to convey our gratitude to the hon. the Minister for the announced decision to proceed with phase 2 of the Cuyler Manor workshop extension. It is estimated that a total of R118 million will be spent on this. Admittedly the expenditure has also been scaled down there, because of cut backs on capital, but I understand that significant progress is going to be made with this project this year. This project includes production workshops, warehouses, as well as crossings and coaching stock workshops, and this decision means a tremendous boost to our area. It is a meaningful gesture by the Government to assist this metropolis, as large-scale unemployment is still rife there.

The history of Uitenhage and that of the S.A. Transport Services is very closely linked. We are very proud of this association, which is to our mutual advantage. It was a partnership for progress which started in 1875 with the commissioning of the first railway line between Port Elizabeth and Uitenhage, which was consolidated the following year with the erection of workshops in that area. At that time, only three locomotives and six short wagons could be repaired in these workshops. From that humble beginning, more than a century ago, the railway workshops at Uitenhage have grown into a huge complex which plays a key role in maintaining the rolling stock of the railways, and similarly, plays a key role in the economy of my constituency. Some of the original red brick buildings are still in use. Unfortunately, they are situated in what is virtually the central business area of Uitenhage and they take up approximately 9 ha of ground. This means, of course, that no proper planning can take place. In addition the progress and further planning of the central business area is inhibited by this. A planned new police station and other municipal projects have, for instance, constantly been shelved as a result of the situation of the workshops, and uncertainty about the date of removal. This decision should be very reassuring.

I have already said that the railway workshops play a key role in the economy providers of employment. I want to stress this by saying that 452 technicians, 80 senior workmen, 209 workmen and almost 1 000 labourers and permanent way workers are employed there and that the budget for this year amounts to R74 million. The importance of the workshops at Uitenhage can never be over-emphasized, especially if we bear in mind that the economy of the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage metropolis leans very heavily on the manufacturing sector, which of course consists of the motor industry and related industries. As these industries are responsible for 60% of all economic activities there, it is essential that this industry, which is so sensitive and changeable, should be supported by other industries which can have a stabilizing effect in the event of a downturn in the business cycle. Over the past years many requests from hon. members on this side of the House have been addressed to the State to bring such stabilizing industries to that metropolis or to encourage them to go there. The workshops at Cuyler Manor fulfil this function in an excellent way.

It is a compliment to the staff, who have to work under very difficult circumstances in buildings which in no way designed for modern production methods, that these workshops have remained so productive. It may interest hon. members to hear what a predecessor of mine, Mr. Dolley, said in this House during the discussion of the 1937 budget (Hansard, 8 March 1937, column 2887-8)—

He went on to say—

†I am of the opinion that what the hon. member Mr. Dolley said in 1937 is still applicable today, both in respect of the quality of the work and the men involved, and also in respect of the condition of the present workshops and the necessity for their improvement. The announcement by the hon. the Minister in this regard is therefore of major importance for our area and is especially well-timed. The workshops handle 48% of all heavy repairs to wagons and approximately 28% of all light repairs. We deserve the facilities in Uitenhage and I am quite sure that the investment to modernize the workshops there will prove to be a very sound investment. The hon. the Minister is indeed to be complimented on this decision.

*In this debate and in the previous debate as well, negative emphasis was placed on many matters and there have been certain plus factors which have been pointed out by my colleagues as well. I wish to refer to one of those plus factors. This is related to manpower. The hon. the Minister referred to the sound labour relations in his department which had contributed to the fact that the Transport Services had performed so well in many areas, despite a dire shortage of staff in key grades. The staff relations are sound because of effective communication between employer and employee, and the realization on the part of both that these relations ought to be adaptable and dynamic in order to keep pace with developments in the sphere of industrial relations. The various staff associations—there are seven White associations, two Coloured associations, one Indian association and one Black association—are especially positive about this approach. Apart from many other reasons, I think it is the opportunity which the associations have to negotiate freely with top management and the Minister, which is of decisive importance to these sound relations. The implementation of the recommendations of the Riekert and Wiehahn reports will, of course, have far-reaching effects in the sphere of labour relations. That is why a bargaining mechanism has been created in co-operation with the association, within the framework and the spirit of this new dispensation. The staff associations support the philosophy of freedom of association within the concept of trade union autonomy, and three of the associations, with a joint membership of 34 990, have already taken on multi-national status.

Harmonious labour relations are being experienced in this department as a result of this positive co-operation, while certain parts of the public and private sectors are having to deal with strikes at this time. Sound labour relations are a compliment to the hon. the Minister of his department. They testify to vision and sound judgement.

This brings met to one final aspect to which I wish to refer, i.e. the continued annual increase in the number of trainees who enter the various trades. It appears from the annual report that the training quota has increased from 2 772 in 1980 to 3 312 this year. This in-service training is a further plus factor for the department, as the duty of the employer in this regard cannot be over-emphasized. Transport Services play a leading role in this, not only in the number of apprentices who are trained, but also in the quality of the training and the eventual standard of the apprentices who become available. This happens because strictly controlled, efficient and planned training takes place, and because modern equipment is used in the process. The demand for the apprentices of the S.A. Transport Services in the private sector is evidence of the high standard of training. All things considered, this remains a dynamic department, which deserves praise for the services which it renders.

Mr. Chairman, I will not follow the same line of thought as the hon. member for Uitenhage. This being a Committee Stage, I should like to draw to the attention of the hon. the Minister once again certain deficiencies in respect of the railway services in my constituency. Before proceeding with my criticism, however, I wish to place on record my appreciation of the hon. the Minister’s personnel and their efficiency shown during the recent visit to South West Africa. Their efficiency and organizing ability were no mean achievement, and in my opinion it is indeed something to be proud of. Personally I found it a very interesting and informative few days, and I was grateful for the experience I could gain.

I should personally like to deal now with the Port Shepstone railway station. I also concede that it appears that a certain uncertainty exists at the present time in some people’s minds about whether the station complex of Port Shepstone will remain where it is or whether it will be moved to some other site. In this regard serious consideration will have to be given to the capability of the complex to handle the traffic if the Port Shepstone area becomes a decentralization point of industry. For the sake of this debate, however, I will presume that the station complex will remain at its present site. If that is the case, what we should look at firstly is the passenger/parcels’ office and storage shed. I notice in the Brown Book— item 321, on page 24— that an amount of R29 300 is to be spent on this particular shed. I hope that this will remedy the position that exists at the present time. If one goes to that station between 07h30 and 09h00 one is faced with an obstacle course second to none. All the parcels that have arrived on the morning train, plus some of the barrows and various odds and sods, require the most skilful navigation if one wants to reach the parcels office along the platform. On arrival at the office one wonders how the staff working there can cope, let alone serve the public. I trust that this amount of money to be spent is going to ease this particular problem, and that it will also improve the working conditions of the staff and the facilities to the public.

In respect of the station itself it can be said that little or no renovation, besides the usual maintenance, has ever been carried out there. Certainly no modernization has taken place, and in my opinion that railway station is inadequate for the travelling public, both Black and White, not to mention the railway personnel who have to work there. I think it is about time that stock was taken of the position and that attention was paid to providing the public with a better amenity than it has at the moment.

Next I should like to refer to the bus rank on the property of the S.A. Transport Services at Port Shepstone. It leaves a lot to be desired. I refer specifically to the congestion of buses and taxis, both legal and pirate, that occurs at train arrival times, especially on Friday evenings; not to mention those “shebeen de move-on’s” that operative a very lucrative business with the Black commuters. They begin to operate at about 09h00 or 10h00. In this regard, may I respectfully suggest that an approach be made to the local authority and a joint effort be mounted by the railway authorities and the local authority to end this unhappy state of affairs.

What do you mean by a “shebeen de move-on”?

It is a shebeen that gets a move on when the police come.

That is correct. In other words, it is mobile shebeen with a cardboard box on its head which runs along beside the track and serves while it is running. [Interjections.]

I now come to the rail user and the predicament in which he finds himself when using the Port Shepstone flyer. In most cases the train does not stop adjacent to the platform for the first and second class passengers. This, of course, means climbing down high steps to the ground which is not easy for the elderly, or alternatively, walking through the third class coaches so as to be able to alight on the platform. I may also add that this is a traumatic experience for elderly passengers. I am sure the Administration is well aware of this as I know of one particular claim that was made against it when a woman who was alighting from the train which had not stopped at the platform actually fell down the steps. For some unknown reason—maybe the hon. the Minister can tell me what it is—the first and second class coaches are in most cases not adjacent to the platform.

As far as the question of coaches is concerned, any passenger who travels past Kelso in either direction is required to change trains at that particular station. This practice, I may say, is not exactly amusing if one happens to be getting on in years or has a lot of luggage or it is raining. I am not sure of the reason for this unpleasant procedure but may I ask this question: Is it because the sliding doors on coaches used on the Durban-Kelso section are not suitable for the Kelso-Port Shepstone section, or is it because of the low platforms on the south section? Whatever the reason, why should the travelling public be inconvenienced to this extent? I believe that the train service should be there to encourage the travelling public, not to discourage them.

You know, Sir, in the old days when steam was used the travelling public complained about the length of time it took to get from Durban to Port Shepstone. Promises were made aplenty that when the line was electrified the journey would take that much less time. I may add that in those days the train referred to ran express from Umkomaas to Illovo Beach to Rossburgh and from there to Berea Road and Durban. Now that we have electrification the trains take longer! Very few of them run non-stop after leaving Umkomaas and Rossburgh. There may well be reasons for this but I also find it amusing that on a Saturday one cannot catch a train from Port Shepstone to Illovo Beach without having to change trains at Kelso and then again at Umgababa to catch a connection that will stop at Illovo Beach.

I should like now to refer to the toilet facilities which in many instances, I am afraid, leave much to be desired. I want to ask whether this is because this service is now considered to be a suburban service. I specifically refer to this because as one gets older and travels, these particular matters become more important, and I have the firm impression that a large section of the travelling public are senior citizens. Going back to 1960, Kelso was then the headquarters of the District Engineer and it was also an engine depot. At that particular stage a fair amount of cane traffic was carried by the Railways and a new loading place for cane was established adjacent to Hibberdene. I may say at this juncture that all cane traffic is now by road. This caused some difficulty in regard to train control in regard to trains from Hibberdene and Mtwalume. The section was then cut in half and Mfazazaan was brought into being as a passing point. It was at the same time made an alighting and joining place for non-White travellers. As I say, today there are no cane trains because all cane traffic is by road and I am led to believe that only one crossing takes place now once a week on a Saturday afternoon. I mention this because while the passenger train stands waiting for train control at Mfazazaan, the layabout element pesters and begs the White passengers for money and cigarettes and then, if nothing is forthcoming, hurls abuse at the passengers because there is no police protection there whatsoever. May I therefore suggest that since Mfazazaan crossing has served its original purpose, it should be done away with and that, if any other place is required to be provided, Turton could quite easily fit the bill. All in all I believe improvements could be made with a little effort and co-operation. I look forward to attention being given to the few points I have raised.

In closing, may I inquire from the hon. the Minister why his department last year in September or October granted loans to certain of its employees to purchase houses and then, when the houses were selected, advised the staff members that funds were no longer available and that they had to wait until April this year? Does the right hand know what the left hand is doing?

Another matter which I find highly unusual is for an estate agent to be advised that an employee’s application has been granted before the employee himself knows. When I queried this with the local passenger and goods superintendent he advised me that the entire process of loans was handled in Durban and the official concerned would be approached. He came back to me in due course and advised me that the official was coming to Port Shepstone on a certain day, but that he could not see me as he was too busy. I certainly accept that—officials are busy just as we are busy—but what I find difficult to accept is that a selected estate agent can be informed that a certain staff member’s loan application has been granted prior to the staff member himself knowing about it. [Time expired.]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to speak after the hon. member for South Coast. In spite of all his complaints I think he has a wonderful constituency. It provides one of my consolations in life. As Langenhoven said, a member of Parliament has a very hard life, because it is difficult to be elected to Parliament, it is difficult to remain here and it is difficult to go away again. I holiday at Port Edward once a year, and I think the hon. member has a very beautiful constituency indeed.

I should like to mention a subject which affects an important aspect of the S.A. Transport Services, i.e. public relations. Public relations is authoritatively defined by the Public Relations Institute of South Africa. There definition goes more or less as follows—

The relationship between the S.A. Transport Services on the one hand and the public on the other is extremely important because the S.A. Transport Services is such a big organization and because it comes into contact with the public in so many ways of its facets.

Let us give an idea of the size of the S.A. Transport Services as an organization, for only then does one realize how important public relations are for the effective functioning of this organization. As a national transport service, the S.A. Transport Services is a State controlled organization which is involved not only in rail transport, but also in road transport, commercial harbours and pipelines, and which also operates a comprehensive domestic, regional, national and international airline. One has only to look at the Administration of the S.A. Transport Services. There are a Minister of Transport Affairs, three commissioners, a General Manager, three Deputy General Managers, 10 Assistant General Managers, with the Republic divided into 10 systems with a system manager in control of each. Considering this, one realizes that the public relations section is of decisive importance to the S.A. Transport Services. What is more, with more than a quarter of a million employees, the S.A. Transport Services is the biggest single employer in our country, and every second, every minute of every day the S.A. Transport Services is involved in public relations with the whole of South Africa. Its nationwide activities are best illustrated by hard statistics which actually sound breathtaking. It operates a route of almost 24 000 km, with almost 1 000 stations. In addition, the S.A. Transport Services conveys millions of suburban and main-line passengers. Furthermore, one has only to think of the number of passengers who make use of the airways, of the large number of road transport vehicles used by the S.A. Transport Services and of the vessels that tie up in our harbours. Looking at these statistics, one realizes that we are dealing with a big public organization. However, we are very pleased to know that the S.A. Transport Services has a public relations section to serve as a link between transport management and commerce and industry on the one hand and to serve this management and the general public on the other. We applaud of the fact that the S.A. Transport Services has clearly and correctly identified these target areas. Although it is the function of the marketing section of the Transport Services to remain in close contact with commerce and industry, we know that the public relations section also stays in contact with public, commerce and industry because the section realizes that this is important in order to maintain a good relationship with its clients. Often, when a problem arises, there has to be a public relations officer to help find a solution by giving the necessary attention to this problem and bringing it to the attention of the management, for example, or by trying to solve the problem himself. We know that since the energy crises in 1973, more and more people have been using trains as a means of transportation. In this respect, too, the public relations section is ready to help regular and prospective passengers whenever problems may arise. There has been closer liaison between this section and the passenger services and road transport section in order to ensure that commuters and long-distance passengers are provided with a convenient and effective service. Attention is given in particular to the needs of the Black population, which is largely dependent on rail and road transport services. Because the Transport Services falls under the authority of the State, it is obvious that it has a responsibility towards the State to ensure that its various services function effectively and that the greatest consideration is shown in dealing with the needs of the various population groups. We live in a heterogeneous country, and the Transport Services, and specifically the public relations section, actively endeavour to preserve and develop good relations between the S.A. Transport Services and the various races and peoples in the country.

Now one asks: How does the public relations section of the S.A. Transport Services reach its targets in practice? In the first place, by means of the mass media with which it has developed mutual understanding and with which it is on good terms. Contact is maintained with target areas by supplying background articles and informative articles and by providing regular replies in the correspondence columns to all the complaints which appear in these columns from time to time.

Secondly, there is personal contact, on which a very high premium is placed. This is of course the ideal type of relationship for communication, where ideas can be exchanged to the advantage of both parties.

What else is being done and achieved in practice? This section tries to be as positive and as active as possible by conveying to the news media the latest news within the organization and by gaining access for the media to all departments. Public relations officers are available 24 hours a day to handle inquiries, which means that the news media do not draw a blank before or after normal office hours.

The public, too, can lay claim to the goodwill and assistance of the public relations section. Priority is given to the needs of the public and they may rest assured that they will find a ready ear, no matter what the nature of the problem and whatever proposals they may make.

As has already been said, the S.A. Transport Services has built up a very good relationship with the communications media over the past few years. In an attempt to show appreciation and to promote and stimulate reporting on transport affairs in general, it was decided three years ago to award prizes annually to individual members of the editorial staff of news media for reporting on transport affairs. This function, too, is performed by the public relations section.

Time does not allow me to mention other examples of media which they utilize, such as television, films and scientific associations. No wonder that the S.A. Transport Services has an image of efficiency, dynamic performance and pride in its service and work. It is a modern image, an image of progress, an energetic image, an image of understanding, thanks to their public relations activities. Therefore we are proud to associate ourselves with the image of the S.A. Transport Services in this debate concerning the public relations section.

Mr. Chairman, it is a privilege for me to speak after the hon. member for Bloemfontein East. He has made a very fine contribution here tonight. Like many of us, he is an MP who works 18 hours a day, and consequently he is a very good MP. He is also a very competent and efficient secretary of this group. Like the hon. the Minister, he has got snow on his roof, but he has certainly still got a big fire going in the fireplace.

Over the past year, more than 44 million tons of freight has been shipped through the S.A. harbours. It is sensational to note that the youngest harbour in South Africa, the Richards Bay harbour, has shipped 20,067 million tons over the past year. Several weeks ago we passed the hundred million ton mark with regard to coal exports. This tremendous achievement testifies once again to the correct decision taken by the Government and to its farsightedness in deciding to build this deep sea habour. This Richards Bay success story also testifies to the outstanding quality of the planning and management and the effective functioning of the Ministry of Transport Affairs, from the top management to the most humble employee. Every member of staff is an indispensable cog in a well-oiled machine. We take this occasion of paying tribute to our people in the service of the S.A. Transport Services. They are outstanding people, people of the highest calibre.

The amount of coal and coke exported through Richards Bay during the year under review had increased by more than 3,8 million tons or 16,06%, from 24,2 million tons to 28,1 million tons. During the past year, 25,5 million tons of coal was conveyed to Richards Bay by rail, while 25,3 million tons was exported. During the year, 14 air-brake trains, each consisting of 84 wagons, and loaded to a maximum carrying capacity of 80 tons per wagon, ran between the Transvaal coal fields and Richards Bay every day, while two air brake trains, each consisting of 75 wagons ran between the Natal coal-fields and Richards Bay every day.

It should be mentioned that the repair and maintenance depot at the Richards Bay harbour has completed 1 million accident-free hours and has consequently received an award for this. It is a great privilege for me to take this opportunity of once again extending my sincere congratulations to At Stander and his men on this outstanding achievement. It served to increase productivity and made possible the exportation of this enormous amount of coal. Such an achievement is only possible through effective management, total dedication and loyalty in the work situation.

With regard to the capital appropriation for further expansions at Empangeni and Richards Bay, an amount of R207 million has been appropriated, including the railway line for the 80 million tons which is eventually going to be exported every year.

While I am on this subject, I want to point our that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North, who had a great deal to say about Richards Bay and this railway line, alleges that such an amount could not be handled. I want to suggest to the hon. member that he should rather confine himself to matters which he knows something about, and that he should leave my constituency alone. The hon. the Prime Minister has on occasion told the hon. member what he should do. We have heard that one gets food and drink free of charge during Airways flights, but there are other articles too which one receives free of charge and which the hon. member could use. With the compliments of the S.A. Airways I now wish to present him with a small gift. Here is a Kimbi’s fashioned nappy, with the compliments of the S.A. Airways. I shall give it to him presently.

I did not talk about liquor. [Interjections.]

I suggest that you keep that for yourself as you need it.

In addition to the R207 million appropriated for this financial year, there is a further R1 044 million as estimated investment for the completion of existing projects. In this connection I should like to enquire of the hon. the Minister what expansions in freight handling facilities are being envisaged for Richards Bay. We are grateful for the fact that work on the Richards Bay railway line and the coal wharf is continuing in spite of the economic climate, since the coal exports are an important source of exchange for our country. It would be very interesting if the hon. the Minister could indicate the amount of exchange we have so far earned from the exportation of coal through this harbour.

The drop in the gold price underlines the importance of proceeding with this capital project, because it will enable us to find additional sources of capital.

As far as the airport at Richards Bay is concerned, 11 630 passengers have passed through the airport over the past five years. Every month, 664 passengers have been conveyed to and from Richards Bay by the scheduled flights of S.A. Airways, while between 850 and 900 passengers have been conveyed by means of chartered flights, amounting to an average of 1 400 passengers per month. At the moment there are three scheduled flights between Mondays and Fridays, while there is one flight on Saturdays and Sundays and two direct flights from Johannesburg to Richards Bay, and a flight back on Mondays and Wednesdays.

I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my heartfelt thanks for the R300 000 appropriated for the extension of the runway, and I trust that this work will be completed before the end of the financial year, because the amount of money was only appropriated some weeks ago.

As far as the Hluhluwe air-field is concerned, we have requested that it be provided with a tarred surface. We accept that it is not possible to do so within this financial year, because of the limited funds available to the department, but we trust that this request will receive favourable consideration next year. It is important, since this area has become an important attraction for tourists in this country as well as from abroad. The various game parks in the area are particularly popular and attract 83 000 visitors every year. The airport nearest to Hluhluwe is 102 km away, at Richards Bay, and the airport at Durban, a suburb of Richards Bay, is 282 km away. Therefore it is essential that a proper airfield be built in this strategically situated area.

I should like to build it, but the Minister of Finance says we must save money.

No, the hon. the Minister shakes his head.

We shall twist the Minister’s arm as soon as sufficient funds are available.

Finally, I wish the hon. the Minister and the management every success for the year that lies ahead.

Mr. Chairman, I listened with interest to the speech of the hon. member for Umfolozi. We from the Transvaal also appreciate the very good work that has been done in the conveyance of our coal to Richards Bay. Unfortunately he also spoke about the airport that he wanted. He really put the fly in the ointment by trying to blacken the name of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North. He spoilt a very good speech by bringing in personalities. This is something I think he should not do in future.

I should like to direct my remarks to cabin crews on S.A. Airways’ international flights only. In a bureaucratic Public Service organization such as the S.A. Airways the cabin crews on international flights believe that the only reward for individual achievement is promotion, because pay increases are given on an organizational basis. So pay is unlikely to generate a motivational thrust. My investigations seem to indicate that although the S.A. Airways’ staff salaries have almost doubled in the last few years, cabin crews on international flights feel that this only correlates with the boom conditions that were then prevailing, the rising cost of living and inflation, and the need for S.A. Airways to retain all skilled and trained labour in the face of the incursions of private enterprise and the threat of strike action in 1980. What are the highlights of the complaints raised by these cabin crews, if it was not pay? They can be found in three categories. Firstly there is the question of rosters, then that of working conditions and, thirdly, bureaucratic alienation.

I should like to quote from the Bible about the requirements of the SAA on cabin crews and perhaps the hon. the Minister could tell me what he thinks about this. I quote from Isaiah 40:31—

The system of rosters seems to be an unsatisfactory system because cabin crews on international flights never know their future schedules, whilst the cabin crews on internal airbus services, working on the block system, know in advance what their schedules for the coming six months are going to be. The overseas cabin crew complain of inadequate rest periods at home between flights, allowing them insufficient time to pay their rent, see their loved ones or recover from jet-lag. Some long flights are called “22-hour shuttle flights”, and it takes six days to go on SAL 262 from Johannesburg to Tel Aviv and back again. This places a tremendous burden on them. The problem of the roster clerks— and they complain about this—is that they cannot arrange the rosters properly because of a shortage of staff. The result is a continual downward spiral, ending in a complete flat spin. “The more the cabin crews have to fly, the more this leads them to resign, thus leaving more work for those remaining, and since those remaining have to do more flying, this leads to more resignations.”

This brings me to the question of working conditions. Equipment seems to be archaic. With the removal of sex discrimination in the allocation of jobs, air hostesses are now forced to push heavy trollies, and this they can only do with great difficulty. I was told of one young air steward who found that he had been issued with a trolley with three wheels. He reported the matter to the catering section. One month later he found himself on another aircraft with the same three-wheel trolley. In frustration he took the fire-axe and hacked off the remaining three wheels.

All trollies have three wheels. We do not have four-wheel trollies.

This was not a question of sabotage. The only way to get the trolley fixed, was to resort to those measures, because requests for repairs were, for some unknown reason, ignored.

This brings me to the question of promotion. Air hostesses believe that men are promoted more rapidly than women, although they do the same work. This immediately brings me to the question of assessing merit. With the roster system it seems impossible for an air crew ever to consist of the same group of people on two separate occasions. Therefore it would be very difficult to find suitable criteria for the assessment of merit. An insidious system of gauging merit involves the “please explain” letters from passengers. These “please explain” letters are placed in the personal files of the air crew members concerned, and then too often the personal files are used for quality assessment. Liaison officers have apparently been appointed, but many feel that this was done just before the last election in order to try to handle complaints. It is thought, however, that this was only done for political reasons, because those people are now never seen any more. Very senior members, from the rank of chief upwards, for obvious reasons tend to place their allegiance with the management and are tempted to defuse potential resistance on behalf of the management, and often they do this in the guise of crew members representing crew interests. They tend to be predominantly of one language group—and this is through no fault of their own—and are politically more orientated towards the governing party. Younger crew members feel that these senior members are more management-orientated than they are crew-orientated.

Therefore top management, which I believe is more than highly sympathetic towards the problems of crew members, is not penetrating this barrier and getting the true facts about crew members.

I turn to the question of education. Many of the air hostesses have university degrees and come from the teaching profession. Little is done for their intellectual stimulation. A great deal of boredom exists which demotivates them and acts as an incentive to rot mentally.

I want to turn to the question of the possible use of Black air hostesses. Insufficient psychological work appears to have been done to prepare for the acceptance of Black air hostesses to enter the ranks of the White cabin crew on international flights in the light of the social and colour prejudices of many White South Africans. This is a very delicate subject and it will require the patience of Job because of the work situation of cabin crews on these long flights.

I come to the question of passengers. Somehow a more relaxed atmosphere is necessary on S.A.A. international flights. A suggestion I wish to make is that some of the informal features of Air France and UTA could be introduced with success into the S.A. Airways, particularly with regard to the serving of drinks and meals.

A problem arises with the Cabin Service Manager. He is seen to be unapproachable. I believe that in May last year the Cabin Service Manager, his assistant manager and the Roster Clerk Manager were transferred because of serious staff discontent. However, even now little has changed. He seems to be more interested in “please explains” than the working conditions of the staff.

The next subject I want to touch on is trade union representation. The present trade union representation is unsatisfactory because the most vital weapon of strike action is precluded. At one time SALSTAF had the majority but a recent poll gave an overwhelming majority to the SAR & H Employees Union (Group E). However, because of their travel commitments, members have little opportunity to utilize the services of their trade union representatives. I should like to recommend to the hon. the Minister that a permanent office at Jan Smuts Airport in the Cabin Services Building should be allocated to certain of the trade union representatives who would work the same hours as administrative staff. All cabin crew members should then be free to lodge complaints with their union representatives who must be allowed to take them up. In addition, there must be no sanctions by management when complaints are being investigated.

I should further like to recommend that the roster system be changed to a block system so that crews can be more integrated, better served and better evaluated.

Finally, I should like to refer to a particular letter, but, as I have the privilege of the House, I want an undertaking from the hon. the Minister that no sanctions will be taken against cabin crews if I read this letter. I refer him to a letter Air/CTC 29/10-2 of 10 July 1981: “Instructions to cabin crew resulting from passenger complaints.” This is not the sort of letter that is sent out by a responsible staff. I quote—

I do not believe that that is absolutely true—

I believe it is correct that not enough announcements are made in this regard—

I have never come across that. If someone happened to be sitting near the galley, I could understand it, but it surprises me that this should be brought to the notice of the cabin crews—

Why not? People are allowed to discuss their particular jobs. Why must they be prevented on S.A. Airways from saying they are dissatisfied? The letter ends up as follows—

That is nice and sweet, but then it goes on—

I think this is not the sort of letter that should be sent out to responsible people. I believe that they should be trained in such a way as to make this letter unnecessary.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, before I come to the subject which I should like to discuss, I just want to refer briefly to a problem with which we are faced in Pretoria.

Are you talking about the meeting at the University of Pretoria today? [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, that is no problem to us at all. [Interjections.] The problem I am talking about is the lack of interest on the part of commuters in the train service between Mabopane and Pretoria. I believe that one of the reasons for this under-utilization lies in the fact that there is a built-in resistance to the service. Passengers have grown used, when making use of bus transport, to getting on and off the bus at specific places. The commuters have also chosen their places of work accordingly. When travelling by train, however, they cannot get on and off at the same place. In some cases there is a significant difference in the distance as a result of this factor. In this connection I want to repeat a previous request of mine, namely that the S.A. Transport Services and other bodies should consider the matter and try to establish a practical network of stops and stations between the various suburbs. If this is done, the commuters will be more willing to make use of rail transport along that route.

In the Third Reading debate I shall again have a great deal to say about the aspect of marketing with a view to increasing the number of passengers who make use of rail and air transport. However, I want to touch on one aspect which is of great value to the Airways, and which could further enhance the positive image which has already become associated with the S.A. Airways.

This is a matter which I have already discussed with the hon. the Minister. He has indicated that he will investigate the matter. We have all heard about little Fransie Geringer. This is a little boy who suffers from what is known progeria or aging disease. Fransie visited America at the end of last year, accompanied by his parents. Hon. members will recall that he visited Disneyland with great enthusiasm. During that visit, he also had the opportunity of meeting an American boy who is suffering from the same rare disease. That little boy, Mickey Hayes of Texas, then expressed the wish to come to South Africa and to visit Fransie in this country. He would also like to see what gold looks like, and is very keen to see the wild animals in the Kruger National Park.

On his return to South Africa, Fransie Geringer was very enthusiastic and excited about the love and goodwill he had experienced in America. Now a car dealer in Pretoria—in my constituency—has taken the initiative, in co-operation with an Afrikaans morning paper, in launching a fund-raising project for this purpose. They want to enable Mickey Hayes and his parents to visit South Africa. Mr. Martin Jonker and his firm have already contributed R2 000 to this fund.

Meanwhile, the fund has been registered with the Department of Health and Welfare. Therefore it is now a registered fund-raising project. The trustees of the fund are Mr. Jonker himself, Fransie Geringer’s father— they live in Orkney—the mayor of Orkney and the mayor of Pretoria. Meanwhile, the invitation has been sent to Mickey Hayes and his parents through our consulate in Houston, Texas. He is now going to visit South Africa, and if everything goes according to plan, he will arrive in this country at the beginning of June. His itinerary provides, among other things, for a visit to Cape Town and to the Kruger National Park. While he is in Cape Town, he will also have the opportunity to visiting Parliament.

It has been suggested that the S.A. Transport Services should accept responsibility for conveying Mickey and his parents to South Africa and back, in the first place as a gesture of goodwill, but I believe also to show the world that the S.A. Airways is the best in the world.

Hear, hear!

It will not only be a compassionate gesture, but also a wonderful demonstration of South African hospitality and goodwill, which will be manifested in the fine work of the S.A.A. I want to plead in this House tonight that we should make this gesture and that we should fully utilize this opportunity. We do not expect the hon. the Minister to give an answer in this connection at this stage. We know that he will want to discuss the matter with his management and with the board, but I believe there is already such a degree of unanimity in this connection that there need not be any doubt about what the reply will be. I also take it that the Opposition will support this gesture through the mouth of their spokesmen—they have only to nod their heads if they agree.

I agree.

I thank the hon. member for Amanzimtoti We have now had the response of one party; the official Opposition has not yet indicated what its attitude is, but I take it that they will not have any objection to it either.

We shall not be creating any precedent by doing this. I think this is a deserving case which should be judged on merit, and I ask the hon. the Minister to give attention to this matter.

Mr. Chairman, I am glad to be speaking after the hon. member for Gezina, for a very specific reason. If there had been a direct international flight between Johannesburg and either Houston or Dallas, it would have been very easy to comply with the hon. member’s request. However, the hon. the Minister stated categorically in his budget speech that no additional international routes were being planned at this stage. It is a pity that this should be so at the moment, in the light of the fact that the rand is performing so poorly against the dollar, which is making exportation to South Africa cheaper and more attractive. Tourism to South Africa is of course a form of export.

For this reason I also wish to refer to the reply given by the hon. the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism on Monday, when he said that we had received 693 228 tourists in South Africa from abroad between 30 September 1980 and 30 September 1981. Our earnings from this amounted to approximately R520 million. Here is a very interesting figure: Over that same period, we received only 80 238 tourists from America, as against the 173 861 tourists from Britain.

For this reason, we were very gratified last night to learn of the announcement that Pan American Airlines is soon to resume its regular passenger service between New York and Johannesburg. Apart from the other benefits arising from this service, the fact that Pan American will again be flying between J. F. Kennedy Airport and Jan Smuts Airport means that the number of tourists from America will increase. Therefore it is a pity that we do not have an international route between Johannesburg and some other city in the USA, preferably in the south. Places which could be considered are Miami in Florida, New Orleans in Louisiana and Houston and Dallas in Texas. At the moment, the only routes to the Americas are those from Johannesburg to New York and from Johannesburg to Rio de Janeiro and to Buenos Aires in Argentina. Those cities, especially the two South American cities, are also served by flights from Cape Town.

The advantages attached to an international route between Jan Smuts Airport and any of the above-mentioned cities in the south of America are considerable. I believe that Miami or Houston are perhaps the best choices. Such a service would make it much easier for Americans in the southern and western states to undertake tours to South Africa. However, it would also make it easier for tourists from the Central American countries such as Mexico, and especially the northern countries of South America, such as Venezuela, Colombia, Equador, Peru and northern Brazil, to travel to South Africa.

In recent years, an interest has developed in South Africa in tours to the USA, and most recently in tours to South America in particular. The introduction of such a route would hold great mutual advantages. Therefore I appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider introducing such a route if possible.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to begin with the hon. member for Berea. The hon. member asked me to announce when the Franzsen report would finally be ready. I have said that the necessary legislation should come before this House by next session. It is very unlikely that there will be any delays. If we do not have the legislation ready for introduction during the next session of Parliament, we may expect certain problems, and I shall inform the hon. member about these. I am 99% certain that we shall have finality about the Franzsen proposals by next session. The hon. member said he was the son of a Railwayman. This hon. member is my opponent, but I want to tell him quite frankly that I do not regard him as a person who will ever become a bitterbek. This debate has now been going on for two full days, and he, as chairman of his party’s transport affairs group, and the chairman of the NP’s transport affairs group, the hon. member for De Kuilen, have virtually never left this Chamber. This shows how much interest they take in Railway affairs. I also want to thank the hon. member for Berea for showing so much interest.

As regards the other questions the hon. member put to me, I will reply to them in more detail tomorrow.

The hon. member for Bellville explained the question of inflation in a very lucid manner. Whether I disagree with him or not, he nevertheless heartened me by saying that this budget was not inflationary. Even though I said in my budget speech that the budget was slightly inflationary, the hon. member has convinced me that it is not. My sincere thanks to the hon. member for his contribution.

The hon. member for Virginia asked for certain improvements to the goods shed at Welkom. It is already in the Brown Book and the work is proceeding at great cost. He also referred to the rapid growth of Virginia. Then he referred to the improved station grounds at Welkom. Consideration will be given to the whole question when the report of the inquiry to which the hon. member referred is received. The hon. member also asked us to include Welkom in the network of the S.A. Airways. At the moment there is a service between Johannesburg and Welkom which is operated by Comair. This is a very sensitive subject for those people who say that we should not kill the private companies. However, we have regarded it as a feeder service. Some of these private enterprises, such as Comair and United Air, and other private companies, operate feeder services until we reach the stage where the demand is such that it will be profitable for us to include those services in our network. As soon as the hon. member can prove that those services are inadequate, we shall investigate the matter to see whether it would be financially profitable for us to provide the service ourselves. Comair also used to operate a service between Welkom and Bloemfontein, but they had to cancel it because there was not enough demand for it. If Comair could not operate a profitable service on a smaller scale, I do not know how one could operate a profitable service with a Boeing or one of our other smaller aircraft, which all have a greater seating capacity than Comair’s aircraft. However, we take cognizance of the hon. member’s request.

They do not go to Bloemfontein; they go to Cape Town.

Yes.

They go further.

We shall have to examine the details more closely before I can give the hon. member an undertaking in this connection. Perhaps we shall have to cut out Bloemfontein!

That is not so difficult.

The hon. member also spoke about the airport. That is a matter which falls under the Department of Transport.

The hon. member for Koedoespoort made a request about the security situation. In this connection I can tell the hon. member that it has been decided to buy the most effective security lighting possible with the available funds. There is already an ordinary wire fence around all workshops, as well as other security measures which I cannot describe, as the hon. member will understand, because as soon as one reveals what security measures one has, one’s enemies also know. However, I can tell the hon. member that we do give attention to these matters because one can never relax one’s vigilance.

We shall look at the question of train meals again. I know that some members of our travelling public who are travelling long distances want two big meals. In any event, we are reviewing the entire situation to see whether we cannot change meals in accordance with the needs of the travelling public as revealed by a survey.

The hon. member also referred to the serving of liquor during flights. From the survey we made it was quite clear to us that the businessman on a flight of 35 to 40 minutes prefers to receive a cup of coffee or tea or a cooldrink free of charge rather than a meal. The survey showed that it was the overwhelming feeling of the travelling public that we should rather give them refreshments. I shall inform the hon. member at a later stage of the exact number of people on our flights who drink coffee, tea or non-alcoholic drinks as against alcoholic drinks. When someone comes to visit me, I ask him what he would like to drink. Would he like apple juice, tomato juice, orange juice, brandy or wine? I do not begin by offering brandy and wine, for in the first place they are more expensive than the other drinks. It depends on how the matter is put.

The hon. member for Kempton Park said that it was the duty of a patriot to support the S.A. Airways. On a visit to a foreign country I was once asked by an inhabitant of that country whether I knew what TAP stood for, and he pointed to his own country’s aircraft. When I asked him what TAP stood for, he said, “As a patriot of my country it stands for ‘take another plane’.” However he was not a patriot. But this the hon. member says “Fly SAA”, and I agree with him. I also want to thank the hon. member for the gratitude he expressed for Avion Park and the recreational facilities in his constituency.

The hon. member for Vryheid raised quite a number of important points, including housing and other benefits, such as job evaluation, which ensures that the worker is remunerated according to his abilities. Then the hon. member asked me to adopt a sympathetic attitude towards the farmers whose land is traversed by the railway line, especially in the case of the doubling of the line to Richards Bay. However, the problem sometimes arises that we give out the construction and development of a railway line to a private firm which has tendered for it. But we shall give specific attention to this matter. We do have the goodwill of the farmers, but there are isolated cases of firms which enter on the farmers’ land without informing the farmers. They behave as though the land belonged to them. We shall give attention to this once again, but in cases where we have expropriated the land, I can assure hon. members that we have not had a single court case under the Expropriation Act in the past two years. We try to accommodate the farmer when we are disrupting his activities. When it comes to building a new line, as we are doing at the moment in the vicinity of Broodsnyersplaas in the Middelburg constituency, the hon. member for Middelburg came to see us with the owners and we discussed the whole matter. We told them that if they were not satisfied with the valuations, they could come back to us.

†The hon. member for Amanzimtoti referred to certain problems in relation to cost efficiency on S.A. Airways. We decided to sell some of our Boeing 727s and we replaced them with 13 Boeing 737s which we purchased at a much higher price in order to save 30% on fuel consumption. Then the hon. member referred to Swissair, S.A. Airways, together with Swissair, have resorted to cost saving. It is a known fact that Swissair derives considerable profits from their hotel and restaurant businesses in order to achieve the profit which they show.

Why do we not have our own restaurants?

Must we go into the hotel business like Sol Kerzner to make profits? [Interjections.] The hon. member Prof. Olivier says “no”. But that is what Swissair is doing and now they are bragging that they show a profit, but where do they make the profit? It is in the hotel business and in the restaurant business. In addition, Switzerland is actually a holiday country.

*Then the hon. member said something which I must correct. Some of my colleagues also took offence at what he said. He said that the Board of the S.A. Transport Services should consist of business people. In the first place, the hon. member is insulting the men in our general management. If a member of the general management were to tell me today that members of the board had to be trained economists—one of them has an M.Com. in any case—I would ask them whether, with such a top management, they really needed businessmen. I would ask them whether they did not have enough business skills available. After all, there are people with doctorates in the economy serving in the top management. Between 1910 and 1948, the people who were appointed commissioners were not retired politicians. One of the present commissioners is much younger than the hon. member for Amanzimtoti. Who are my advisers at the moment? They are the people who know the hard reality of politics; they are people who have walked the streets and know what the needs of the Railway worker are. If only the hon. member for Amanzimtoti had not been so stupid as to belong to that party, I would have appointed him as commissioner of the S.A. Transport Services tomorrow. [Interjections.] In General Smuts’s time Mr. Esselen, a politician, was a top Railway commissioner. He was no economist, but hon. members would do well to read up his achievements as a commissioner. I am quite willing to admit that I put the present three members, who are politicians, on an equal footing with Deputy Ministers. [Interjections.] Let us understand one another. Do not insult my staff by alleging that we have a shortage of economists. However, I do need political advice.

Of course!

That does not mean that I want to play politics, for when I am negotiating with a man to offer him a position, I never ask him which political party and which church he belongs to. He only has to be a Christian. [Interjections.]

†The hon. member for Amanzimtoti in referring to the Blue Train called it a “snob” train and asked why, if it was not a profitable service, did we not increase the tariff. During the supper hour we decided to increase the price of journeys by Blue Train by 25%. Is the hon. member satisfied?

As long as you can fill it, it is fine.

The last time we increased the tariff there was a waiting list of six months. Last year we increased the tariff by 50% and afterwards there was a waiting list of eight months. It is therefore a “snob” train.

*I said on a previous occasion that people who lived in Waterkloof had to go around in Mercedes cars, for when they travelled by bus, they had to pay cash. [Interjections.]

†The hon. member for Amanzimtoti brought some other very important matters to my attention. In regard to some of them I shall reply in writing,

*I want to thank the hon. member for Smithfield for having spoken about the three-deck wagons and made suggestions about compartments. All these aspects have already been investigated and some proposals are already being implemented. If farmers can only be persuaded to make more use of the three-deck wagons, the turnover would be so much higher and we could go into the question. I thank the hon. member again for his contribution.

The hon. member for Beaufort West spoke about Loxton, Merweville, Prince Albert and other remote towns which have no railway connections. There people have to travel 115 km to get to a station. Although it would not be profitable to introduce a full-scale road transportation service over those long distances, I do keep telling the Management that those people must remain in the rural areas. We should rather consider using smaller trucks. If the amount of traffic does not justify a 20-ton truck, we must consider using smaller trucks so that we can continue to provide that service. It is true that this is a business enterprise, but hon. members on this side have also said that it is a national enterprise. Once, on a hot summer’s day at Loxton, my car broke down and there was no form of transport available to me. I therefore feel that the plea of the hon. member for Beaufort West will certainly carry weight.

A fine Minister this is.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central says that Algoa Bay is the show-case of South Africa and needs to have a small-boat harbour. [Interjections.] This matter actually falls under the Department of National Education, as do matters relating to Granger Bay, and the hon. member also referred to Granger Bay. Those are developments which, strangely enough, fall under the Department of National Education. I shall discuss the matter with the hon. the Minister concerned and ask him about the committee to investigate the whole issue and also about the breakwater to be constructed of 5 000 tyres, etc. Our officials are, however, giving this matter their attention. I shall definitely be getting back to that hon. member on these points.

*The hon. member for Bloemfontein North mentioned pensioners and said how many times he had asked for this adjustment from Bloemfontein. He said I had said in my budget speech that the pre-’73 people were getting 18%, but in the last paragraph of that announcement I said that the statutory increase of 2% was still being applied as well. So the pre-’73 people are getting a pension increase of about 20%. There are some Railway officials who work in the parliamentary building. After the budget I met one of them at the lift, and he had tears in his eyes. He told me what his pension was and asked me to work out for him what the pension would now be. One sympathizes with those people. They have to come and work here at night because their pensions are inadequate. In this way we are relieving their problems. I thank the hon. member for having raised that matter.

The Bloemfontein airport falls under the Department of Transport. I should be glad if the hon. member would raise it under the Community Development Vote, because the hon. the Minister of Community Development wanted to raise the matter with the Department of Transport. The Bloemfontein City Council and the hon. member once came to see me at the airport. The hon. member for Bloemfontein East was also there. We shall really have to do something about it. That garden which Mr. Jacobs maintains is really something which should be mentioned.

I shall furnish the hon. member with a full reply concerning the Blue Train travelling via Bloemfontein, as well as the change in the air route from Johannesburg via Kimberley and Bloemfontein to Cape Town. With that charge, the working expenses of a flight via that route would be R2 000 more, but if we would get more passengers, we could go into the whole matter, because the service has to be profitable. [Interjections.]

Let it go via Welkom.

The hon. member for Virginia says we should forget about Bloemfontein and stop at Welkom. We can investigate that as well. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for East London North spoke about salary parity and the employment of people of colour. I thank the hon. member for his contribution.

The hon. member for Kuruman spoke about the railway line from Sishen to Kuruman.

Where is Kuruman?

It seems to me that the attention of the hon. member for Kuruman was distracted for a moment. I have already given half the reply, but I should just like to repeat the last part. [Interjections.] The whole proposal is part of the five-year programme, as I announced at the meeting at Kuruman which he attended. Because it was merely a feasibility study which had been done, it was only possible to investigate routes and not to decide on definite routes. The latter will receive attention when there is greater clarity concerning the financing of the project. We have made a viability study and found that there is in fact justification for the construction of this extremely long railway line, but we are still waiting for all the inputs and hon. members know what our present financial position is. However, I have taken cognizance of the hon. member’s representations.

The hon. member for Simonstown addressed a whole series of requests to us which we are giving attention to.

†He said that national servicemen should be given a 100% free pass. We already give them a 50% deduction.

30%.

On the aeroplanes it is 30%, but on the railways it is 50%. I do not think we can afford at the moment what the hon. members has suggested. If one gives a man a 100% free pass and limits him to three journeys per year, who is to control that? It is very difficult to see how this is to be controlled. In which months must the three journeys be undertaken? We shall in any event pay attention to these things.

As regards the level crossings, I shall tomorrow have certain answers about the level crossings he mentioned. He will understand that I cannot reply off-hand on all these matters.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister why the Department of Defence should not pay that subsidy to the servicemen? After all, the hon. the Minister is losing money on the rail services. Why should the Department of Defence not pay?

The Department of Defence is not paying a single cent.

But why should it not?

Well, we want to encourage servicemen to fly on the late flights which are usually not fully occupied. If an aeroplane on a certain flight has, on average, an 80% occupation and has 20% of the seats unoccupied, is there anything wrong in telling servicemen they can fly on that flight at 70% of the fare provided they alter their plans and take the 8 p.m. flight rather than the 6p.m. flight?

Does the same apply to railway journeys?

On railway journeys the deduction is 50%. The same applies in respect of the 40-off card for older people. Those cards can be used at times when the trains are not full. They are encouraged to travel by train at those times when the trains are not full. I am not altogether stupid either. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Simonstown also referred to the problem of insufficient policemen being on duty on Friday evenings at certain subways. We take note of that and will give it our attention.

He also made the point that, where masses mix, separate facilities must be provided. Let us for a moment forget about the Whites. I want to agree with the hon. member. I took a train from Mitchell’s Plain to Cape Town at 5.30 a.m. and at Langa station a Coloured woman, who got on the train at Mitchell’s Plain, came to me and said: “Can you not provide separate amenities for us Coloured people? These Blacks are taking over the whole train.” I do not want to talk about the Whites now. Forget them.

*I am now talking about the Coloured minority and the Asian minority. An Asian came to me and asked: “Can’t you just give us Asians separate eating facilities in our workshop?” Am I a racist if I comply with the request of a minority group which asks for protection and says: “We are being crowded out”? I want to take this matter out of the political sphere. I am tired of being branded as a racist every time. I am realist. I have never looked down on a person of colour. However, I have personally travelled in a bus late in the day in which I was jostled and pushed aside. One has to travel some of these routes onself in practice. The hon. member for Simonstown travels to Simonstown by train and he has experience of this. I too have travelled to Simonstown by train to widen my experience and to see the beautiful route to that wonderful constituency of Simonstown. In any event, I have now replied to the questions and requests of the hon. member for Simonstown. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Uitenhage asked a question in connection with Cuyler Manor, the workshops at Uitenhage. The hon. member said that he noticed in the budget that we were proceeding with the project. It is something that is essential for Uitenhage. The hon. member also spoke about sound labour relations. I am glad to say that there are sound labour relations within the ranks of the S.A. Transport Services. If hon. members could be present when the Coloured trade union and the Black trade union come to see me, along with the members of the management, and if they could see how positive they are in their conduct, and what an inspiration it is to realize that we can in fact live in harmony in this country, they would find it a very pleasant experience. Therefore I am very glad about the fact that the hon. member also referred to this.

The hon. member for South Coast referred to the Port Shepstone railway station.

He is a nice guy.

Yes, and I like him. I do not know why. He is a reasonable person. Tomorrow or on Monday I shall give a full reply on all the problems he mentioned. However, I just want to ask him for the name—confidentially, of course—of the man who applied for a loan.

†Can the hon. member let me have it? I should also like to have the name of the agent, because this matter must be investigated. I am sure there was a good reason. Unfortunately we could not contact the System Manager during the supper break. It was impossible to get hold of him this evening. I shall, however, try to get all the particulars, also those in respect of the conditions at the Port Shepstone railway station. I will discuss this matter again later with the hon. member. This so-called “shebeen de move on” we shall bring to the attention of the police.

*This really is a curious way of doing business. [Interjections.] I must say I should like to see such a “shebeen de move on” for myself one day. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Bloemfontein East spoke about public relations. I am very glad he did. The hon. member made a thorough study of this. In a gigantic organization such as the S.A. Transport Services, public relations must be of a high standard. These relations are important, especially with regard to our relationship with the public, the Press and the media which have to introduce us to the world. Fortunately, our public relations are of such a nature that discussions always take place in a positive spirit.

The hon. member for Umfolozi spoke about the enormous developments at Richards Bay. He also referred to the airport at Hluhluwe. In connection with Richards Bay I can only give the hon. member the following information. Additional wharves with facilities for handling freight, such as wooden logs, granite, ferro-alloys and steel, are being planned for the foreseeable future, and the hon. member will know that we are at present investigating the possibility of exporting maize through Richards Bay.

Between the commissioning of the harbour on 1 April 1976 and the end of January 1982, 112 million tons of freight was exported through Richards Bay, of which coal accounted for 104 million tons. The total foreign exchange earned by this youngest harbour of South Africa over this period is R3 300 million. This just shows us what an enormous project this is.

†The hon. member for Bezuidenhout read a very long speech given to him by an air hostess one evening on a flight to Tel Aviv. [Interjections.] The lights were on, of course. [Interjections.] I shall have to read the hon. member’s Hansard again in order to reply to him in detail. [Interjections.] The hon. member said, among other things: “The more they fly, the more they have to fly”. Listening to the hon. member delivering his speech so terribly fast, made me think of an old owl that lived in an oak tree—

[Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, the hon. member spoke so fast, it was difficult at times to follow him at all. He became so excited he even quoted from Isaiah, chapter 31. I am sure I can give the hon. member a better quotation. In any case, I shall go into the matters mentioned by him.

The important thing is that we become upset and disappointed when members of the cabin crew complain to passengers. When one goes to a hospital and a nurse complains to one as a visitor, one immediately wonders whether she is doing the right thing. Why does she not take her complaints to her superiors or to her professional organization? If people are not sufficiently concerned to approach the correct channels but complain instead to passengers on a flight, they are definitely not acting in a right and proper manner. Be it as it may, however, I shall have this matter investigated. We will go into the whole matter and either tomorrow or Monday of next week I shall reply to hon. members in regard to Black air hostesses and give full details in regard to these other problems.

*The hon. member for Gezina spoke about Fransie Geringer and his American friend Mickey Hayes. Hon. members will understand how much we sympathize with a little boy who, at the age of 12, is the equivalent of 70 years of age because of the disease he is suffering from. This means that he can expect to live for another year or two. However, when it comes to international flights, IATA has firm rules with regard to discounts. Fortunately we have a secret fund at the S.A. Transport Services. [Interjections.] Can you believe that we have one? This fund is meant for charity, but it is very strictly controlled. I can tell the hon. member that for the time being, we shall contribute an amount of R1 000 from this fund towards his air fare, and we shall find other ways of providing further assistance if this is at all possible. The hon. member was moved by kindheartedness to plead the case of a child who has at most another year or two to live. No one could fail to be moved by this. We shall try to be as accommodating as we can, but meanwhile, I want to ensure that this amount of R1 000 is given to the hon. member for this purpose.

The hon. member for Hercules referred to the question of additional international routes. He spelt the matter out clearly. He made a reasonable plea in this connection, but we are faced with the problem of certain routes which are not even economical as it is. This is mainly because of fuel prices. I shall furnish the hon. member with full particulars in connection with his requests. The only trouble is that one has to clear this internationally and there is also the question of the agreement one has entered into with one’s pool partners, etc. I should very much like to introduce a flight to Dallas, but in any event, I shall let the hon. member have full replies to his questions in due course.

Mr. Chairman, now that I know that the hon. the Minister regularly drinks coffee with the station master of Pofadder, I feel much happier. I regard this budget as a narrow escape.

†Mr. Chairman, the loss on passenger traffic was R435 million in the 1980-’81 financial year and it is estimated at R690 million in the 1981-’82 financial year. We are also told that if no effective action is taken this amount could increase to R2 000 million by the year 1990. On 24 February I put a question to the hon. the Minister to try to ascertain how this loss was divided between long-distance traffic and suburban traffic but apparently the S.A. Transport Services do not have these statistics. I think this is a pity because I think this is an important division to have. We know that this loss is borne in two ways. Firstly, there was a Government subsidy of approximately R300 million in the 1981-’82 financial year and secondly there was cross-subsidization from other more profitable S.A. Transport Services operations of a further amount of approximately R390 million during the same financial year. Suburban passenger services are run in the four metropolitan areas plus East London. During the 1980-’81 financial year a total of 681 million journeys were undertaken. Of this number, 53% were undertaken in the PWV area, 25% in the Cape Town area, 20% in the Durban area and 1% in the Port Elizabeth area. If the direct subsidies through the State and the indirect cross-subsidy in respect of passenger services totalled R690 million in the year 1981-’82 alone, what amount was in respect of long-distance traffic and what amount was in respect of suburban traffic? We have to make this calculation because we do not have the statistics in this regard. If one makes this calculation in proportion to passengers carried it will be a R650 million subsidy in respect of suburban traffic and R40 million in respect of long-distance traffic. If, on the other hand, one makes this calculation in proportion to revenue received, one finds that the figure is R290 million in respect of suburban traffic and R400 million in respect of long-distance traffic. It is therefore apparent that commuter traffic, that is suburban traffic, was subsidized in the financial year 1981-’82 by the taxpayer to the extent of somewhere between R290 million and R650 million. These are enormous sums. To put them in perspective, let us consider what was said at the Good Hope conference with reference to the cost of the proposed industrial development programme. One must remember that what was launched there was nothing less than a regional development strategy for Southern Africa, a grand design to redistribute trade and industry, to change the flow of population movements and to reverse the direction of social and economic development. This is an immense conception, good in patches but in other ways unrealistic and doomed to failure as the other great illusion, apartheid.

It is proposed to regulate developments in the four metropolitan areas, to promote development in eight deconcentration areas and in 20 decentralization points in the Republic and in 27 decentralization points in the independent Black States by a package of incentives designed to reduce the disadvantages of those areas which are remote from urban areas. One of these incentives is subsidized rail tariffs. I do not propose discussing the hon. the Prime Minister’s regional development strategy on this occasion, but I do want to make an important point. The hon. the Prime Minister, advised by his economists, believes that all this can be done “at a cost of almost R100 million to the Exchequer.” This really puts into perspective the benefits which have accrued to the metropolitan areas of the Cape Peninsula, the PWV area and Durban which are served by the suburban rail services. Something in excess of R300 million in the form of subsidies, which were borne in some shape or form by the South African population as a whole, was paid out last year. It has the effect of reducing personnel transport costs, and therefore production costs in precisely those metropolitan areas which least need that assistance. These are the areas, which already have all the natural advantages which the hon. the Prime Minister’s development strategy for Southern Africa is designed to counteract. The gross distortion caused by passenger service losses made in the suburban areas is of such a dimension that it has influenced the economy to a significant degree. I want to refer to the position of Port Elizabeth, historically an industrial area and battling to remain so against the magnetism of the larger metropolitan areas as well as against the Government’s traditional indifferent attitude towards that area. If the Port Elizabeth area were to share in the transport benefits in proportion to its industrially active population, it would have received approximately R20 million as a transport subsidy in the year 1981-’82. What does this indicate? It highlights the dangers of the type of subsidy we are so prone to give. It is convenient and politically easy to subsidize a needy area in an indirect way, for example through low rail tariffs. However, is this wise? Should assistance not rather be given in a visible and measurable way to areas which have difficulty in developing for one reason or another? If this is done, there is an automatic cost benefit appraisal whenever money must be found for the continuation of that assistance.

The losses on urban passenger transport highlight how grotesquely distorted our actions become if, in so far as the S.A. Transport Services are concerned, prices are unrelated to costs. Changing circumstances, such as fuel increases, industrial development, population shifts and regional development, can make nonsense of rail tariffs which were originally introduced for good reasons but which have no relation whatsoever with costs. Rectification of the situation then becomes an almost impossible task without causing serious economic and social disruptions. Let me make it clear that I am sufficient of a pragmatist to say that this should not prevent the S.A. Transport Services doing a certain amount of charging what the traffic can bear. It does not concern me if it is decided that there is an element of the economy that should be selectively loaded for some good purpose. However, the profits from these operations should be channelled back through the Exchequer for systematic and strategic allocation in the form of subsidies.

I asked the hon. the Minister a question with regard to his attitude to salary and wage increases at a time of rampant inflation. As a good politician he returned the question to me and asked what we would have done. I believe there is no responsible sector of the private sector that will not be prepared to say that they will keep their total wage bill— I am not talking about individual wages but of the total remuneration being paid—at something substantially less than the inflation rate in the coming year.

Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member for Walmer does as the hon. the Minister suggested and studies the Franzsen recommendations again, those recommendations in terms of which the consumer, the employer and the employee should each contribute one-third, I think he will see the matter in its correct perspective. It is a complex report and the recommendations can only be implemented with the support of all Opposition parties. Today the hon. the Minister asked them whether they would support legislation in this connection.

In the ten minutes at my disposal I want to discuss items 500 to 510 and 523 to 559 in the Capital Budget. The first-mentioned items deal with diesel locomotive sheds, in respect of which the estimated amount is R20 million, whereas the latter items deal with electrification, for which R526 million is being appropriated.

I want to contrast this with the role the steam locomotive has played during the past 150 years, which has led to the steam locomotive finding a place in the hearts of people in this country and abroad. South Africa is one of the few countries in the world where steam locomotives can still be seen in all their splendour. All the glossy publications on steam locomotives that have appeared recently testify to this. It is really worth while to acquire these publications. In addition there are the calendars depicting steam locomotives which are to an increasing extent being offered for sale in our stores, together with photographs and even the sound effects of the steam locomotives on tape and records. This is all part of the cultural historical background of South Africa.

That is why steam locomotive enthusiasts from all over the world also get together in this country. Every day of the year tourists can be seen making recordings along the picturesque railway lines at Bethlehem and Modderpoort, as well as George and Knysna. Can the hon. the Minister not investigate the possibility of keeping these steam-propelled giants in operation on a section when the day arrives when steam is finally phased out of the service? Many overseas Railway publications have described the excellent attributes of steam engines. Time and again I am struck by the number of sections which are being kept in operation abroad just for these steam locomotive enthusiasts. Why cannot this also happen in South Africa?

As I have just said, the steam locomotive served us well in the mass transportation of goods and passengers for over a century. It also made a tremendous contribution to the development of our country and its people in the economic sphere. According to the annual report there are 1 659 steam locomotives still in operation today. Twenty, years ago there were 2 666 steam locomotives. Consequently there are 1 000 less today. It makes one feel sad to travel through Salt River and Paarden Eiland or past of Touws River and look at what can be called the burial ground of steam locomotives. These locomotives have served this country and its people and the railwayman faithfully.

Ten years ago the position in respect of the gross ton/kilometres was as follows: Steam represented 32,6%; electricity 49,2% and diesel 18,2%. Today steam’s share is less than 5%. I am quoting these figures because we must take them into account. If the traffic is analysed on a gross ton/kilometre basis today, electricity represents 30% and diesel 25%. When all the electrification schemes are completed, the position will be as follows: Electricity will supply 85% of the power, diesel will drop to 10% and steam will remain at 5%.

Tractive power must always be supplied economically. I realize this. That is why South Africa began to electrify sections in Natal as long ago as 1925. In 1971 it was decided to do away with steam locomotives entirely over a period of 15 years. Then came the oil crisis and in 1973 other financial considerations emerged that indicated to us that we had to prolong the period of utilization of these steam locomotives.

There are certain limitations and I know what they are. I know about the maintenance costs per locomotive/kilometre. In this connection the price of steam is very high. Steam costs R1,82 per locomotive/kilometre; electricity costs 23,79 cents; and diesel costs 49,46 cents. By analysing these figures one realizes that the cost of steam is up to four times that of diesel. The tractive power costs per kilometre per locomotive are indicated by the following figures: Steam costs R7,54, electricity R2,44 and diesel R3,45. One appreciates these economic considerations and one also recognizes the limitations that exist.

There is for example the shortage of water in dry regions. There is the need to make fire-breaks, which cost a great deal of money. There sharp bends and steep inclines. Frequently two steam locomotives with two staff members in each locomotive have to be used to pull a train, whereas a crew of two people can control up to five diesel or electric units pulling in Tandem. There are trains with air brakes that need less rolling stock and railway facilities.

In 1986 for example—it is necessary to plan for this too—44 million tons of coal will be conveyed annually to Richards Bay. This will be made possible by using seven or eight 200 waggon trains a day, pulled by four electric units; which, when one makes comparisons, is also to the detriment of steam. If two steam locomotives were to pull 40 waggons, it would mean that at least 35 trains a day would be needed. Steam power also requires coal to be transported over long distances for locomotive purposes, for example from the Transvaal to the Cape.

We realize that this requires many waggons, manpower and line capacity, and that it is still a better proposition for coal to be used to generate electricity instead. Steam locomotives utilize only about 7% of the energy value of coal, whereas electric locomotives utilize 30% and diesel locomotives 10% of this energy value. We are well aware of all these matters, but I want to request that the steam locomotive should still have a place in our society. As someone once rightly said, this locomotive—

Mr. Chairman, far be it from me to try and follow in the footsteps of Mr. Sporie van Rensburg.

Do not even try.

No, I shall not. I would rather tell the story I heard recently on the “Bosveld Express”. The story goes that the big shot in this House, the hon. member for Jeppe, had to be bribed with kudu’s to speak, and then another hon. member of this House had to pelt him with cans to shut him up. I therefore that I shall not be silenced with the big gun this evening.

I should like to say a few words about maize exports. This is an important matter because the export of export maize costs between …

First tell us what the Tukkies did this afternoon.

Surely there are no Tukkies in Kuruman.

I do not know what the Tukkies did. I sit here in this House and do my work. [Interjections.]

The transport costs of export maize amount to between R100 million and R140 million a year. This is therefore a fairly important issue. Unfortunately the problem is that some people misrepresent this matter, and this evening I want to try and throw a little light on this so that there can be a greater degree of co-operation between the producers on the one hand and the authorities on the other, and so that the taxpayers of South Africa act in a more sympathetic way towards the maize farmer.

I want to state categorically that the transport of export maize is not subsidized, although it is transported at a level of 87% of the economic cost. One could say that I am contradicting myself, but this is only an apparent contradiction. When one brings in the concept of marginal costs, one sees that all directly apportionable variable costs, such as fuel prices, including diesel and electricity, are included. In addition there are directly apportionable labour costs, for example the driver, the shunter and the ticket inspector’s salaries and wages are also included in marginal costs. There are also the directly apportionable fixed costs, such as depreciation of rolling stock, and the tractive power used in the transportation of maize. These are what are called marginal costs. In addition there are also further allocations of railway lines, the inspection and maintenance of sections, salaries and wages of station staff at the starting point and destinations and at stations en route as well. Then there are still the overhead costs of the administration of the head office and I think even the costs of the staff of this department who work here in this Parliament. As a matter of fact there are innumerable costs and although it seems as though the export of maize is being subsidized, it makes many of the country’s remaining exports economical.

There you have it! We calculate all the costs when we fix the maize price. Why cannot we also do so in this case?

Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, but I just want the hon. the Minister to repeat what he said. [Interjections.]

When we determine the maize price, we calculate all the costs. Why cannot we also calculate all the costs in the case of transport?

This brings me to the matter I should like to discuss with the hon. the Minister. [Interjections.] I know he is only asking me because he is a big maize farmer. He just wants me to state the matter firmly so that he can talk to the people concerned about it. [Interjections.] Let us consider this section to East London. I am now using the figures of those clever gentlemen with the M.Com degrees sitting beyond the hon. the Minister. From September to January 1,8 million tons were exported, and 1,5 million tons were maize. The section was there. This was infrastructures that was built to carry the entire country’s transport, and not only maize exports, but what did this fact that maize exports constituted such a large percentage—83%—of the total exports mean? It meant that those innumerable allocations of overhead costs for the section in which I referred to were made applicable to the export of maize. In other words, maize exports to a great extent bear the costs of this section. That is what I am referring to. I am not saying that maize exports bear the costs involved in the rest of the country. Far be it from me to make such an allegation.

You are coming very close to it.

I am here to rectify the matter and not to seek confrontation. [Interjections.] I had to throw more light on this matter because the hon. the Minister asked me to. [Interjections.] However, there is also the argument that we are using the most distant harbour and not the nearest harbour. It has been asked why we do not use the harbour at Durban.

East London is the best harbour.

As usual it is a man from the Cape who does not know what is going on. [Interjections.] Durban has two major disadvantages and that is why it cannot be used to export maize. In the first place at high tide Durban can only accommodate ships with a displacement of 21 000 tons, whereas East London can accommodate ships with a maximum displacement of 35 000 tons. This is a very important advantage if one considers the costs involved in the transport of maize by ship. In the second place the railway line to Durban is badly congested with goods traffic, to such an extent that the Durban export terminal can only handle 75% of its maximum capacity. For this reason Durban is not a very good alternative export terminal. We are experiencing a period of crisis in the maize industry today, what with interest rates that have more than doubled, and droughts. Perhaps one can ask why I am speaking of maize exports when I have just said we had a crop failure. However, we are still exporting last year’s crop, but we do have the crop failure. [Interjections.] This time I at least made sure that I asked the hon. the Minister something in his sphere of activities. Last time I was a little wide of the mark because I asked him a question about something which fell outside his jurisdiction. [Interjections.] In view of the fact that imports will definitely decline now, cannot the Railways arrange with the Maize Board for the Durban harbour to be fully utilized, for at present that harbour exports at R7,30 per ton cheaper than East London harbour, and at R10,70 cheaper than Cape Town harbour? We are therefore asking that Durban harbour should export to full capacity. The Cape Town harbour exports at a rate which is R3,40 more than East London harbour, and for this reason we are asking—because we are in a quandary—whether the railways cannot accommodate us. Although the situation has changed, cannot they do as they did in the past and charge the same tariff for goods to Cape Town as for goods to East London? This was done for us in the past. It is a question of a million rands. This means nothing to the Transport Services, but to us it is a great deal of money.

In conclusion I just want to say that the question of Richards Bay as an alternative harbour is something we shall return to in the main budget.

Mr. Chairman, the previous speaker sounded rather disconsolate to me. It seems to me he had a few problems with the pun on kudus and mealies.

Not to mention “Spore”.

It also seems to me that he is concerned about power-sharing between the harbours at East London and Durban. For the rest he made a very good speech.

A healthy speech.

The beginning of his speech in particular was very good.

I want to finish what I was saying earlier about the wonderful things being done by the Transport Services for the Coloureds in the Western Cape. Allow me just to finish what I was saying. The construction of staff quarters at Philippi is expected to get under way soon. The staff quarters are planned to house 1 000 single Coloureds. The quarters will be enlarged later to make provision for a further 1 000 workers. The people of Eerste River and Muldersvlei will also be housed in the staff quarters. In addition, family housing is being planned for Kleinvlei. Apart from this, up to December 1981 a total of 442 100% loans were granted to Coloureds in the Peninsula in terms of the home ownership scheme. It is expected that better housing will serve as an inducement to the better class of Coloured who will be an asset to the S.A. Transport Services and will to a large extent solve the existing problems. This is how the Transport Services is going about caring for the Coloureds in the Western Cape.

I agree with the Opposition members who said that this budget is inflationary. Any capital expenditure and any increase in wages and pensions is inflationary. We cannot deny that. However, I differ with them as to the degree. I contend that the budget introduced by the Minister is a very responsible one under the circumstances. However, the Opposition must not only criticize, they must also put forward solutions, which they have not yet done. They must also suggest alternatives in the light of current circumstances and taking the realities into consideration. What are the realities? We are aware of the extra burden of interest, the increased electricity tariffs, the rising diesel prices, etc. The hon. the Minister cannot be held responsible for that. We all know this.

However, I concede that the Minister can be held responsible for and does control the deficit of R690 million on passenger services. He also controls the increase in salaries and pensions. He could have curtailed unprofitable passenger services and increased fares drastically. However, I also contend that if he had done so, he would have betrayed the very essence and aim of the Transport Services, viz. service to South Africa. It is precisely because of this aim of service to South Africa and its people that the fares for Blacks and the less well-off are being kept as low as possible. The reason for this is to do exactly what the Opposition is always supposed to be advocating, namely to keep fares as low as possible for these people. The S.A. Transport Services has tried to help these people as far as possible, and the deficit is due partially to the fact that the Transport Services has made it possible for lower paid people to travel to work cheaply and to travel to their homelands and back cheaply. Surely the Opposition members know that these workers cannot pay or afford the same high fares that the “fat cats” of Yeoville and Houghton can afford.

Leave Yeoville alone.

They are all “fat cats” there, even if some of them look thin. [Interjections.] It is the Railways that opened up this country and helped this country develop. It is the railway worker who, through his dedicated service, has helped to build up and improve the welfare of this country over the past 60 years. Under these circumstances do they not deserve salary increases? Do they not deserve pension increases? Is this what the Opposition is asking for? They say they are grateful for the salary increases, but they push up inflation. You cannot have it both ways, Mr. Chairman.

You want it both ways!

Must we sit back and let pensioners, who have given life-long service just to make these fat cats even fatter, go hungry now? Do they not deserve an increase in pensions now that they are old?

Have you ever looked at yourself in the mirror? You should do so if you want to see what a fat cat looks like. [Interjections.]

Do those pensioners not deserve an increase in their pensions? Have hon. members of the Opposition no sympathy, no compassion at all? Have they no humanity? Do they not feel sorry for those people? Do they want those people to die of hunger? Do they want those people to walk around with no clothes on their backs in their old age? Do they want those people, who gave the best years of their lives to S.A. Transport Services, to struggle too in their old age? We Nationalists have always championed the cause of the pensioners. I myself know what a hard time the pensioners in East London are having.

Which Nationalists are you referring to now? [Interjections.]

Because I know what a hard time pensioners in East London are having, I should like to thank the hon. the Minister for this increase in pensions and salaries. Particularly as regards pensioners who retired before 1973 …

Most of them vote for the PFP in any case.

That hon. fat cat should keep quiet now. [Interjections.] Pensioners who retired before 1973, and who were hardest hit, are now getting a better deal, thanks to the increase in their pensions, which effectively totals 20%.

You were just afraid to leave with Andries and his friends. [Interjections.]

No, now you are very wide off the mark, Harry.

I concede that these increases are inflationary. However, everyone in this country must do their best to help those people, because they are having a hard time of it. I know these increases are inflationary. I also know that the hon. the Minister did not really have the money to grant these increases. But because he is human, because he is a Christian, because he is Hendrik Schoeman, the hon. the Minister continued to search until he found the money to give these people an increase in their pensions and in their salaries. We praise him and thank him for this.

Harry agrees with him, not so? [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I just wish this increase could have been larger. I know the hon. the Minister very much wanted to give more …

Harry did not want to.

… but unfortunately, circumstances and the realities of the economy did not permit him to do so. No matter how badly off pensioners in South Africa may be, this Government has never neglected its duty to do everything within its power to alleviate the lot of pensioners regularly.

Mr. Chairman, let me give an example of this. Let us for argument’s sake take a pensioner who received R100 a month in March 1968. As a result of all the increases he has received over the years, on 1 April 1979 he received R253 a month. By 1 April 1981 the R100 he received in 1968 had grown to R351 a month. Now, in 1982, that R100 a month has grown to R421 a month. This is almost 4,25 times as much as it was 14 years ago. This is what the NP has done for the elderly and for the S.A. Transport Services. I agree that this is not a princely sum by any stretch of the imagination. However, I contend that this attests to the fatherly care of the hon. the Minister. It is his fatherly care that keeps these people fed, and helps the big family of the S.A. Transport Services to keep its head above water. We praise and thank him for this.

No one, not even the fat cats, will deny that the S.A. Transport Services cares well for its people. It has always done so, and it will continue to do so in the future.

That is why they vote National.

In the short time still at my disposal I just want to touch briefly on another matter. During the past year, wagons transporting maize have been derailed between Queenstown and Stutterheim on two or three occasions. This maize was not going to Richards Bay. This maize was going to East London—the right place, of course. Unfortunately the train was derailed. [Interjections.] I should like to know from the hon. the Minister how the maize that fell out or was damaged, was sold. Who was approached to tender for it?

The chickens ate it.

How were the specific people who eventually purchased that maize, contacted?

Who were those fat cats?

Fortunately there are not many fat fats in that part of the world. The fat cats are all on the Witwatersrand. [Interjections.]

Never mind, I shall see to it that you remember this evening. [Interjections.]

I want to suggest that if something like this happens again, the hon. the Minister or the authority concerned must approach the farmers’ association in the magisterial district in which the incident takes place. They can keep a list of the chairmen or secretaries of the farmers’ associations, and if the matter is urgent, the authority concerned can telephone the chairmen or secretaries and ask them to take the necessary steps so that the maize can go through the correct channels. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, during the Second Reading debate I put specific questions to the hon. the Minister with regard to South West Africa. I put the matter very mildly; I was not looking for trouble. However, the hon. the Minister’s reply was somewhat vague. He did not answer the question that I considered to be an important one. I wanted to know what the hon. the Minister’s specific plan was with regard to administering the South West Africa division so that it could exist as an independent, complete railway system when that area becomes independent. I accompanied the hon. the Minister on a short visit to the area and I spoke to the people there. I understood from them that there are in fact problems in obtaining certain classes of staff, for instance, and that contracts must be signed with them in order to attract them to South West Africa and to keep them there. I therefore want to know from the hon. the Minister exactly what is being done, with regard to staff, to recruit people who are former South West Africans for instance. I also want to know what the special conditions apply with regard to job reservation, for instance, that apply in South Africa and have to be removed there in order to adapt to the situation there. What is being done with regard to maintenance facilities, for instance, in order to insure that that railway system can maintain itself? What is being done with regard to training facilities to insure that those people can manage the organization themselves? What is being done with regard to rolling stock, for instance? Has a definite plan already been worked out or is such a plan being worked on, to make a certain section over to such an independent State, for instance? Therefore, what is the hon. the Minister’s specific plan in this regard? We know that in South Africa the SATS budget is approximately a third of the total budget of the country and I should think that the position would be more or less the same in South West Africa. Therefore, what is at issue here is chiefly the stability that would prevail in that economy after we had withdrawn or after that area had become independent. I should therefore like to have a rather more comprehensive reply from the hon. the Minister.

As in the case of many other hon. members I should now like to raise a few matters about my constituency. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I had to go very far to find problems although this is not to say that everything is running so smoothly there. I put questions to those organizations that have the potential of making a great deal of use of the railways, and they told me that they do not actually have anything to complain about because in any event they no longer use the railways! However, it is nevertheless a cause for concern that in the timber industry, for instance, road transport facilities are increasingly being made use of instead of rail facilities. Therefore, possibly at a later stage we will experience the same position as in the case of sugar cane which in the end are transported entirely by road. Then we have the conflict between the two sections that fall under the hon. the Minister where we are going to experience the overloading of our roads and where the hon. the Minister will be in competition with himself.

There is another problem that did arise and which may possibly be experienced in other areas too, and this has a bearing on the smaller stations, particularly with regard to bus shelters and toilet facilities, for instance, at the stops on bus routes. There are places where the road transport service links up with the railways or which are gathering points for private buses. For instance, along the old mainline from Durban to Pietermaritzburg most of these small stations are situated in the areas of smaller local authorities, for instance Umlaas Road and Cato Ridge where the stations are not always open for the full period in which the buses are running. Therefore, one has situations where the toilet facilities on stations are not open for the bus passengers to make use of them. One then has complaints from authorities and individuals that people are acting indecently in public. Therefore, if the hon. the Minister is shortly requested to contribute something towards this situation with regard to rectifying the provision of public facilities, I hope that he will be sympathetic towards it.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North will not refer to this again in his speech because the same area is involved, but I nevertheless want to say that the passenger facilities at the Pietermaritzburg Station—a fine national monument, but unfortunately it was simply constructed and left at that—is inadequate. In particular the section for non-White passengers is definitely inadequate. This is even more applicable because the station is an important junction for buses from the rural areas. The station serves as a junction for various mainlines, as well as for sidings, for instance the one to Griqualand East. Passengers have to queue for a long time because the waiting room facilities for non-Whites are totally inadequate.

There are also insufficient shelters on platforms. There are shelters on the main platform only, but there are no shelters on any of the other platforms. It rains much more in Pietermaritzburg than it does in Koekenaap, for instance, and I therefore feel that attention should be given to this aspect.

Another aspect that I want to raise, is the compensation with regard to unexploited minerals. Under item 27 of head No. 2 of the capital budget a sum of R700 000 is being set aside for the Ogies-Broodsnyersplaas line out of a total of R3 million. In other words, this is approximately 23% of the total estimated value for the unexploited minerals. If this is to be the pattern, one can say that the holder of the mineral rights will recover all his compensation for the unexploited minerals within approximately four and a third years. This sounds somewhat generous to me, because it is not a case of someone who had a farm, for example, and immediately had to find another source of income. In addition, I do not think that the holder of the mineral rights would be able to mine the minerals within such a short period.

According to last year’s Select Committee on the Accounts of the S.A. Transport Services it appears that there are further outstanding sums in this type of case, amounting to approximately R37 million. I do not know whether these are all of them. Dr. Loubser said the following on this—

He refers specifically to the fact that they are minerals that lie beneath the railway line that was built specifically to transport the minerals. I should like to know whether further progress has been made towards reaching an agreement in this regard.

The question of loading coal was also raised in the Select Committee. We know that at this stage Richards Bay is not yet showing a profit and that the original contracts were made in order to get a business off the ground. Dr. Loubser says that they were “contractual clauses to get it off the ground”. With regard to the increase of coal exports, Dr. Loubser says that other factors played a role and that it will give rise to complicated negotiations. I should like to know how these complicated negotiations are progressing. I do not think it is right for a few exporters to get away with tremendous profits whilst the general public is expected to compensate by paying the higher tariffs. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to commence by being able to say thank you. A few years ago I made a request in this House for the planning of the Mossel Bay harbour to be revised and for the improvement of the facilities there. At the time officials of the Department of the Railways and Harbours, as it was known then, investigated the conditions in the harbour, together with officials from the Department of Trade and Industries that was responsible for the fishing industry at the time. After this investigation had been carried out, certain proposals were made for the improvement of the facilities in the harbour and for revising the planning of the harbour so that it could be better utilized. During the subsequent years it was not possible to carry out the proposed work due to financial circumstances. Now that the financial circumstances have improved, but have nevertheless not improved to such an extent that an excessively generous attitude towards money is justified, this planned improvement of the harbour is nevertheless being pursued. I should like to express my gratitude and appreciation towards the hon. the Minister and his department for accepting the importance of carrying out these planned works and actively pursuing them now.

Whilst on the subject of the Mossel Bay harbour, allow me to refer to another problem in this harbour. This is the accommodation in this harbour for small craft. These small craft in the harbour create a problem for the officials who run the harbour because to a certain extent they have a hampering effect on the exploitation of the harbour as a commercial harbour. However, because there are no other facilities for these small craft, they must inevitably be accommodated in this harbour. This must also be taken into account in replanning the harbour.

Over the past years plans have already been drawn up for establishing a small craft harbour outside the existing harbour basin, but due to the cost involved in this, the Department of Sport and Recreation which is also involved in the matter has not yet given effect to it. I therefore want to ask whether this hon. the Minister will not consider in the revised planning of the Mossel Bay harbour to make proper provision for small craft.

Earlier today the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central made a plea for such a harbour at Port Elizabeth and the hon. the Minister has already furnished the hon. member with a reply in which he also referred to a possible small craft harbour at Granger Bay. However, I make bold to say that a small craft harbour at Mossel Bay would have much more merit than a small craft harbour anywhere else.

I do not have the time to go into this matter in detail now, but I should like to give the hon. the Minister the particulars that I have in this regard, and I believe that he will then agree on the merits of such a small craft harbour at Mossel Bay. On this occasion I just want to put my word in, with regard to the possibility of such a facility at Mossel Bay, so that the other hon. members who have already had their say will not anticipate me and so that when my more deserving request reaches the hon. the Minister, I will not find that they have already escaped with the booty.

During the Second Reading debate I referred to the socio-economic function of the railway component of the Department of Transport Affairs in particular. I now want to go into this matter a little further on this occasion. I believe, as I said during the Second Reading debate, that it is necessary that every effort should be made to make all services as profitable as possible, but also that those services that are not so profitable, should be continued in the interest of the people and the communities that are served by them. Now I want to refer to the passenger service between Cape Town and Port Elizabeth. I believe that this service is one of the less profitable services. I make use of this service myself from time to time, and it is very clear to me that this train is usually under-occupied. However, I am convinced that if an adjustment could be made to the departure time of this train from Cape Town in the direction of Port Elizabeth, it would probably be much more popular and be utilized much more. The same applies to the departure of the train from Port Elizabeth. It appears to me that this train, despite the fact that it is a diesel train, is still running at the same times as the old steam train ran to a large extent, and as if it stands just as long in certain stations as the old steam locomotive did when it had to be provided with water, coal and so on. I feel that if the times of this train could be adjusted, it would also be much more popular and probably much more profitable than is the case at the moment.

There are also various railway bus services in my constituency, some of which are also under-occupied and others of which are not being used in the way that one would like to see them being used, but nevertheless this road transport service fulfills a very essential function. Even though the loads are not as large as one would like them to be for the sake of the profitability of the service, it is nevertheless true that for those who are in fact dependent on the service, this service is fulfilling an extremely essential function. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to be speaking after the hon. member for Mossel Bay. He gave thanks for what he has already received.

Ask for a harbour in Springs. [Interjections.]

At this moment we have everything we want in Springs. We are being given a railway line encircling the town that will be aimed chiefly at serving the industries, and all we can say about the railway service that we are receiving on the Eastern Rand, is that it is evidence of good planning by this department. When we have problems, there are officials that we can approach. They all have an ear for our problems and always try to accommodate us.

I should like to talk about industrial safety and will indicate that the S.A. Transport Services maintains a very good record in this regard. Industrial accidents are something that can never be entirely prevented. Safety is part of good management in any industry, and therefore the management of the S.A. Transport Services has a care for industrial safety in every sphere. The practical staff of this enterprise in particular are always being encouraged to work according to industrial regulations because these are aimed at promoting industrial safety. We must look at the accident figure of the S.A. Transport Services against the background of its increasing activities. There are many factors that contribute towards accidents, and one of them is the human factor. Accidents are often caused by outsiders and they in turn can be divided into a number of groups. An interesting group is the group that tries to commit suicide by means of the railways. I am not talking about political suicide now. According to the report 22 people committed suicide in this way during 1981-’82 whilst three were seriously injured in an attempt to commit suicide. Then there are the people who tresspass on railway lines, and in the past financial year no fewer than 423 people have died in this way, whilst 219 were injured. Carelessness also claims many fives. People enter and leave moving trains, and 22 people died and 84 were injured in this way. A particular cause for concern is the large number of people who tresspass on railway lines and are then involved in accidents. When such an accident takes place, in the nature of things the train is delayed, and this in turn could give rise to other accidents. When the driver tries to bring the train to a halt, there is a possibility that passengers may be injured.

The management of the S.A. Transport Services does everything in their power to eliminate accidents of this kind by fencing off railway lines and installing barrier gates at crossings where pedestrians have to cross the railway-lines. However, I think that the public should be educated to avoid transgressions of this nature.

Accidents also occur at crossings where roads cross railway-lines. In spite of the fact that 317 of these crossings have already been eliminated, an increasing number of accidents is still taking place at crossings. R77 million has already been spent in this regard. Last year 288 accidents took place, in which 123 people were killed and 142 were seriously injured. There are still about 226 crossings in the country, and we notice in the capital programme that provision is being made for eliminating these crossings as well. In spite of the preventive measures on the part of the S.A. Transport Services, for instance erecting barriers, flashing lights, stop signs and posting guards at crossings, the road user still thinks that he can play a type of roulette with a train, and often he comes off second best. In this sphere there is a tremendous educational task to be carried out, and according to my information the National Road Safety Council has in fact been requested to take action in this regard.

The human factor also gives rise to accidents, and here I am of course talking about people who are involved in the industry itself. In this sphere the railways is accomplishing a tremendous task. Train accidents, which include collisions and derailments, are on the decrease, in spite of an increase in traffic. The number of accidents has decreased from 732 in 1975-’76 to 489 in 1979-’80. This represents a drop of more than 33%. In 1980-’81 there was a slight increase, in comparison with the previous year, which then brought the decrease over the past six years to 25,6%. Accidents in shunting yards decreased from 6 771 in 1975-’76 to 4 447 in 1980-’81. This is a decrease of 34,4%. These good results are evidence of good management but the railways are not yet satisfied, and efforts are continually being made to decrease this accident figure further. A series of steps were taken to cause this accident rate to shrink even more, and attention is being given to the human factor in particular. This is being done by means of training and officials are continually being trained in practice. They also attend seminars and refresher courses. One-day symposiums are arranged to keep this staff continually aware of the fact that in practice, industrial safety is also a very big factor in the profit motive of the organization as well.

Senior officials regularly attend meetings at which other officials are informed on accident prevention. When a student visits the training college at Esselen Park, accident prevention is one of the very important aspects of his training programme. Train drivers, as we used to refer to them in the old days, are one of the most important elements in the prevention of accidents. In the first place these people are properly selected, they undergo intensive training and are then specifically trained to deal with certain stages. Danger points are pointed out. A check is continually being kept to see whether these people are acting in such a way so that it is clear that accident prevention is important to them. The mental state of these people is continually being taken into account. One’s mental state, one’s psychological condition, determines one’s susceptibility to accidents. The management is continually giving attention to eliminating the susceptibility to accidents, and when there are psychological or social problems, the necessary attention is given to them. If we think that the person who handles a coal train with its freight and equipment, has approximately R8,5 million worth of responsibility in his hands—not to mention the responsibility of a person who handles a passenger train—we are impressed by the importance of the task that is being carried out.

There are also incentive measures to attempt to eliminate accidents. There are competitions in various categories, with trophies that are presented. I believe that motivation also play an important role. Brochures, posters and other information material are also being distributed continually. I think that all these aspects combine to produce excellent results and that this is also continually being viewed as a high priority by the S.A. Transport Services.

I want to allege that there is profit in safety. When safety in general comes up for discussion in any industry, there are a few characteristics that can be identified. Inter alia, there is the loss that the business suffers due to a loss of production time, the loss of equipment, staff that are killed or lose limbs as a result of such accidents. In its safety drive the railways takes into account economic as well as social responsibilities in this sphere.

In conclusion I just want to point out that in the business world it is a recognized fact that motivation, labour satisfaction, successful management and mutual involvement by the management and workers correlates positively with industrial safety. Therefore, the involvement of the management, good management and staff motivation are the reasons for the excellent safety record of the railways.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Springs once again drew our attention specifically to the accident risk to which so many of the employers of the S.A. Transport Services are exposed. This is a good thing because it makes one realize once again how essential it is that incentive measures should be taken and also that workers in this large enterprise should be properly remunerated.

The Committee State of the budget gives hon. members the opportunity to express certain criticism and to make requests. Surely then it is not out of place to pay the hon. the Minister a compliment from time to time as well. In my own constituency over the past year I have experienced how efficient the hon. the Minister and his management are and how quickly they react to problems that occur locally. During the past year we had a general election.

You nearly lost.

That may be so, but it will not happen again. In the course of the election campaign I encountered a problem in connection with the main station in the largest suburb in my constituency, and I made representations to the hon. the Minister. Not only did he react to them, but he paid a visit himself and investigated the matter accompanied by all three commissioners and some of the senior officials. The speed at which he gave attention to this problem—I shall elaborate on it a little in a moment—shows with what confidence one can bring real problems to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

Although this is a local matter, I think that there is a lesson to be learnt in it for all of us. To the south of Durban we have a fairly large industrial area, a concentration of industries, the Mobeni area, which is situated in the midst of a number of White suburbs and immediately adjacent to what is probably the largest Indian city in the country viz. Chatsworth. This city accommodates approximately 300 000 of the almost 780 000 Indians in South Africa. The industrial area is also situated very close to the Black residential area of Umlazi. During the election campaign in particular, although prior to it and subsequently as well, it came to my attention very specifically that a crowding out problem—in actual fact not a problem of one group crowding out another, but merely a throng—had arisen at the Montclair station. According to figures that we have gathered since then, it appears that from day to day 29 000 factory workers arrive and depart from the Montclair station—I assume that the station was originally built for the convenience of the approximately 20 000 residents of the Montclair and Woodlands suburbs—in comparison with the approximately 160 White residents of the Montclair and Woodlands suburbs.

It is true that such a problem cannot be solved overnight. I am particularly grateful that the hon. the Minister saw his way dear to arrange that additional railway bridges be provided there. Nor is it possible, and I do not think anyone expects it of an organization that is run on business principles, to argue in the face of such figures. No one can expect there to be a special dispensation for such a small number of people, the residents of those White suburbs, as against the tremendous preponderance of factory workers. Nor could anyone surely expect the administration of the S.A. Transport Services to do more than has been done to prevent the crowding in the station area.

Having said all this, however, the problem still remains that the station staff is simply too small for such a large number of factory workers and that there would inevitably be an overflow into the residential area, that there would be congestion in the streets of the residential area and that there would be the greatest possible potential for friction.

I do not have any request to make of the hon. the Minister in this regard. I am satisfied with what he has already done for us. However, I have said that I believe that there is probably a lesson to be learnt in this. During the Third Reading debate I hope to elaborate a little more on the future patterns, as they are developing now, with regard to the population trends in our country, and the influence thereof on the S.A. Transport Services. I feel that one thing that is very clear, is that in the coming years, until the end of the century, we are going to experience a tremendous increase in the concentration of city dwellers in our existing large cities. I believe that the lesson we can learn from this, is that the S.A. Transport Services should be closely consulted in the planning of future industrial areas, and that the transport services should also take this into account in planning the placement of junctions for train traffic.

The issue here is not whether they are White residents on the one hand or Black factory workers on the other. The mere fact is that a tremendous concentration of factory workers is taking place in a residential area, and is a potential cause of friction. I want to go as far as to say that even if there was no colour content in this situation at all, the same potential for friction would still exist. Therefore I believe that the Administration will have to take this carefully into account in future planning.

Mr. Chairman, I do agree with the hon. member for Umlazi when he says that many of our problems in respect of overcrowding and the use of amenities in this country are not of a racial nature. The real problems are caused by inadequate facilities. We often complain of overcrowding and tend to regard this problem in a racial light instead of realizing that the real solution to those problems lie in the creation of more and proper supervision at facilities and the creation of more and adequate facilities. Clearly, any mass transport requirement pertaining to a suburban area will create tension between the owners of suburban properties and the commuters who make use of those facilities. Therefore, I do agree with the hon. member for Umlazi on that point.

I am also grateful that I can speak after the hon. member for Umlazi because 10 months ago he was very talkative when it came to the NP’s achievements in Natal. I believe the hon. member thought that Pietermaritzburg North was a safe NP seat and that he was home and dry in Umlazi. I should like to remind him though that the voters of Natal are independent-minded people. He had better watch his seat very carefully in future elections. [Interjections.]

The first matter I should like to raise concerns a recent court case involving railway employees who were found guilty on charges of fraud and theft in the Uitenhage magistrate’s court. This case was widely reported in the Press. Rapport of 28 February this year also carried an extensive account of the court case. Those men stole goods worth between R200 and R300 each, and also defrauded the S.A. Transport Services through bonus and overtime claims. There are two points I want to make in connection with this case. In mitigation their attorney pointed out that the court should take into account two factors. The first factor was the lack of control which put temptation in the way of these men. The public relations officer, Mr. Le Grange, in the same report, pointed out that in an organization as large as the S.A. Transport Services one was going to have temptation put in the way of men, as a former State President and a former Leader of the NP in the Transvaal also discovered.

Order! Has there been a final verdict or is the matter still sub judice?

No, the matter has been decided in the court and the men have been found guilty.

Does the hon. member know whether an appeal has been lodged against the verdict?

No, not that I am aware of. From reading the report in the newspaper it does not appear to me as though an appeal has been lodged. [Interjections.] They are talking about who set fire to Table Mountain. That matter is not regarded as sub judice. Mr. Chairman, in any large organization there is a problem in regard to theft—shrinkage as it is politely termed but, clearly, control should not be so lax that people can steal or defraud with impunity. It would appear from the attorney’s plea in mitigation in regard to these three individuals who are involved that these men were in fact in a very difficult situation. Apparently there are a number of other court cases pending which the S.A. Transport Services own Police Force has exposed and I should like the hon. the Minister to tell us whether this poor control is being tightened up in the Eastern Province and also in other areas.

The second aspect of this matter, which I think is a very interesting insight into the S.A. Transport Services, is the loss of occupation that these three individuals will incur. I spoke to the attorney who was involved in this case defending these men and he told me that one of them was a plumber and two were carpenters and all three of them were earning a basic salary of R855 per month. In addition to this, they enjoyed housing, medical aid and pension benefits in excess of those they could enjoy in private business. Furthermore, as many railwaymen do as well as people in private business, they were able to increase their earnings by at least 50% by means of overtime. I have obtained some salary levels for carpenters and plumbers in private enterprise by telephoning a number of firms this morning, both small and large public companies employing a large number of people. Plumbers and carpenters in these firms are earning between R500 and R700 per month, depending on their years of service. They are qualified artisans.

In regard to this matter concerning these Railwaymen, the report that appeared in Rapport has, inter alia, this to say—

May I ask a question?

Mr. Chairman, I should like to answer a question but only when I have completed my speech and perhaps have a minute or two left. [Interjections.] Here is another interesting passage that appears in that report—

[Interjections.] Keep quiet now, I am now talking to the hon. the Minister. [Interjections.] I quote further—

I want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider the matter very carefully should these men apply to the S.A. Transport Services for re-employment once they have served their sentences. I say this because it would appear as though they are enjoying salaries and benefits far superior to those they could enjoy outside the S.A. Transport Services. [Interjections.] Perhaps the answer to the question posed by the hon. member for Walmer in regard to the 1% per annum decline in the proportion of White employees in the S.A. Transport Services over the past four years lies in the well above open market salaries and fringe benefits which certain employees of the S.A. Transport Services enjoy. I should like to say here that we shall discuss this matter again on other occasions elsewhere in this building.

Another point I wish to raise is the pleasing fact that the S.A. Transport Services is spending large sums of money on comfortable hostels for Black male workers, and we support that. Clearly, the desire is to build pleasant environments with leisure facilities and we commend that desire. However, a much bigger issue is involved, namely the destruction of family life in South Africa. This Administration—as do many other people in business—finds that it is cheaper to house its Black workers as bachelors throughout their whole working life.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: May the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central read á book in the House?

I am not reading a book; I am merely paging through a magazine.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North may proceed.

In Imbali and Umlazi, which are KwaZulu areas where there is no need at all for reasons of Government policy to erect bachelor accommodation for married men, this Administration is persisting with this policy. The hostels are beautiful, as far as can be ascertained from newspaper reports about them. It is also stated that R60 million will be spent on such hostels, and it also carries a report about Mr. Harding of Mr. Le Grange’s Public Relations Department. Last week there was another report in the Sunday Tribune about the grand facilities at Imbali. However, it is in these areas where the S.A. Transport Services cannot hide behind Government policy, that it continues to promote the awful system of housing working men away from their families. What happens to their families? They live in under-developed, neglected, deteriorating rural areas which become natural environments for cholera. Let me tell hon. members, the cholera outbreak in Natal is a case of the crows coming home to roost. It is not my job to raise these matters, but I hope that Black staff associations and Black unions will do their utmost to persuade the S.A. Transport Services to discontinue building single accommodation. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to say that it is a pleasure for me to speak after that hon. member. The hon. member made many conflicting statements in his speech. First of all, the Opposition complains about the budget because it is inflationary. Secondly, they complain about the amount of overtime remuneration that certain Railway workers receive.

I did not complain, I was in fact pleading on their behalf.

The hon. member questioned the very way in which overtime remuneration is paid in his speech. The Opposition must spell it out to us whether they are for or against overtime remuneration in principle. If they are against it, they must say so.

We are for it.

If the Opposition is for it, then why does the hon. member complain and thrust his finger into a hole in the sieve and joke about it? The S.A. Transport Services is a vast organization that due to the nature of its activities has to pay overtime remuneration under certain circumstances in order to carry out certain services. On the basis of this is it understandable that certain anomalies might find their way into this process. However, the S.A. Transport Services is following a specific procedure according to which such transgressors can be caught out, where the right to appeal exists and where justice can consequently be done. The Railway Commissioners—who are in the gallery at the moment— have dealt with such matters from time to time. It is in fact possible for this organization to see justice done with regard to the organization itself, as well as with regard to the individuals in question.

I now want to deal with another matter. Fairly large increases have been announced in this budget. In the nature of things we can understand that cost increases must take place in the S.A. Transport Services and that these costs must be recovered by means of the transportation of goods. I know that the hon. the Minister was closely involved with agricultural affairs and that they still mean a great deal to him. I should like to bring one matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister. As far as agricultural goods are concerned, the hon. the Minister has raised a very important aspect. He quoted maize as an example and said that as far as the domestic transport of maize is concerned, only 88% of the costs are recovered. As far as export maize is concerned, he recovers only 86% of his total costs, i.e. he does not cover the total cost of the transportation of the product. On the part of agriculture, we appreciate this situation, but there is another side to the matter, too. The S.A. Transport Services is in the fortunate position in some respects of it being possible to pass the cost increases that take place within their branch of industry, onto those who make use of the facility and recover it from them. However, if we look at agriculture as such, the agriculturalist cannot necessarily recover the cost increases through the price at which he is remunerated. In the cost of maize for domestic consumption, the farmer delivers the product to the coastal grain elevator and the transport from there to the mill is for the account of the miller. As far as the transportation of the processed product to the consumer is concerned, the cost can also be recovered from the consumer. With regard to export maize, the cost of the transport of that maize, that is sold on the basis of supply and demand, cannot necessarily be recovered. This will mean that the farmer will have to pay the total cost increase involved, either in the form of a levy, or in a way on which the board and the Government may decide.

With regard to livestock, it is also true that the farmer carries the cost of transportation to the market. It is deducted from his account. Therefore, the producer cannot pass that cost off onto the consumer and he will have to absorb that cost increase himself, which will mean a smaller net income for himself.

Agriculture is experiencing a problem situation. I do not want to allege that agriculture expects the S.A. Transport Services to carry the total cost increase alone. There are certain expansions that must be made, and to a certain extent there are cost increases with regard to salaries and pensions and on the part of agriculture, we realize that these are adjustments that must be made. However, it has happened in the past that maize, for instance, was transported at tariff 12 minus 10%. That tariff was done away with a few years ago and then the maize was transported according to tariff 12. I think that the tariff was amended last year to tariff 12 minus 4%. However, I am speaking under correction, but this is the figure that I have in mind.

Mr. Chairman, I feel that agriculture will also have to be treated sympathetically in this respect as far as the cost increases are concerned, taking into account the extent to which agriculture is in a position to absorb cost increases. I feel that agriculturalists and the hon. the Minister should conduct discussions in order to see which measures can be taken to limit that cost to a minimum. I want to pay the hon. the Minister and the S.A. Transport Services a compliment. We are aware of the degree in which the turnaround time of trucks has been decreased for the transportation of export maize. Yesterday the hon. the Minister told the hon. member for Durban Point that the average turn-around time for trucks is 10,7 days per truck. For maize the turn-around time is much shorter. This is due in particular to block freight trains and the accommodating attitude and co-operation that is being received from the industry and the S.A. Transport Services, and therefore a great deal of progress has been made in this respect. I therefore think that I am entitled to allege that agriculture, wherever possible, tries to do its share towards increasing the efficiency of the railways in order to allow the capital investment to be utilized to the optimum. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to take into account the dilemma in which agriculture finds itself, particularly in this time of drought where price increases and the prevailing inflation have resulted in agriculture not being in a position to absorb cost increases alone, which is in fact possible in certain cases.

There is a second point to which I want to refer and this is in a completely different sphere. I have already spoken about the turn-around time of trucks used for the transportation of maize, and the fact that it has been shortened. As far as passenger trains from Johannesburg to Cape Town are concerned, I think that the turn-around time for those trucks has not decreased much over the past few years. I am speaking from practical experience. The time that the Trans-Karoo Express train takes to run from Johannesburg to Cape Town, has not been shortened very much over the past number of years. I therefore want to address a friendly request to the hon. the Minister that the S.A. Transport Service should give attention to the possibility of shortening the travelling time by three or four hours. Then I think there would be many more people who would make use of the railways instead of flying to and from Johannesburg. I also want to ask the hon. the Minister to investigate increasing the time spent in stations and increasing the speed of the trains. This would mean additional benefits for the S.A. Transport Services.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to follow on from the hon. member for Ventersdorp. I do not really have any criticism on the activities of our Transport Services, but I do in fact want to break a lance for the men who work quietly behind the scenes and do not always receive the recognition that they deserve. I am thinking here in particular of the station master at Maraisburg. The railwayman is prepared sometimes to put the shoulder to the wheel and do more than is expected of him. A station master plays a very important role, as we all know. It appears as if he is simply checking up on things and is there only to see that the wheels keep rolling. However, this is not always the case. In the case of Maraisburg station, which incidentally is a neat station on the West Rand stage, passenger traffic was the chief activity for a number of years. About a year and a half ago a certain station master was transferred there through promotion and he immediately took the bull by the horns and tried to improve the transportation of goods that were being dispatched by goods train at the time, and to provide services to the growing economic activities there. When he arrived there, only approximately eight tons of goods were being handled per month. Since then he has pushed up the goods traffic to 158 tons per month. This required hard work and it meant that he had to go personally to each one of the surrounding factories and sell the services, in the face of considerable competition from private initiative which was also of the opinion that it is cheaper to dispatch goods by private road transport. This man even called in specialists from the department to take a look at individual tariffs. In this way he could convince the people there that in many respects it was cheaper to make use of the S.A. Transport Services. There were cases where people would not believe that their parcels could be dispatched cheaper by rail than by road. However, he has convinced them to such an extent that today they dispatch all their parcels, even those going to the neighbouring States, through this specific station.

The staff consists of clerks, who deal with the sale of passenger tickets, whilst three labourers and the station master are involved with the goods traffic. Nor is it anything unusual to see the station master on top of the lorry, lending a hand to load the goods. He is not supposed to do that work, but he does it out of a love for it and also because he is proud of the S.A. Transport Services, an organization that has always treated him well in the pursuance of his career.

In general Railway officials never make the headlines. They seldom receive recognition for their work, except from the Management and, of course, the hon. the Minister. That recognition is never wanting. Indeed, the Management does everything in their power to support the Railway official in his task and always tries to eliminate frustration that may arise as a result of the rapid increase in traffic. I cannot ask the hon. the Minister to do more than is being done at the moment in this specific case, because he has indeed reviewed salaries once again and has also improved the pension benefits. It does one’s heart good to realize that a man who devotes his life to his job is rewarded accordingly and that, one day, when he retires, he will be sure of a fairly carefree life ahead. In addition, adjustments are always being made to pensions.

However, I should like to address a small request to the hon. the Minister. I have been talking about “station master” throughout, but can the hon. the Minister not consider changing this designation to “station manager”? Our local station master, Mr. At Stander, is more than simply a master; he is in fact the manager of Maraisburg station. I therefore want to request that that recognition be granted to him, as well as to the other people who carry out the same task throughout the Republic.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.