TUESDAY, 18 APRIL 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:05.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the statement by the Deputy President, the hon Jacob Zuma, at the SADC Parliamentary Forum workshop yesterday, viz that ``parliaments in the region should question whether they are defending their people’s rights and freedoms and preventing the abuse and manipulation of power’’;

(2) further notes that abuse of power and undemocratic practices in one member state may lead to political instability in others and this can have an adverse effect on the development of the region as a whole; and

(3) endorses the Deputy President’s call for parliaments in the region to be guardians of human rights, the rule of law and democracy.

[Applause.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Nice try, Tony!

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes, that was a good one! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Mr N J CLELLAND: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock reports that the Government is planning to spend R300 million on a new jet for President Mbeki;

(2) further notes that the current Falcon 900, good enough for President Mandela, is still capable of flying to all corners of the earth in all weather conditions;

(3) notes that R300 million could provide AZT to 6 million mothers infected with Aids, saving at least half of these babies from Aids infection, or could provide 17 647 housing subsidies to homeless families; and

(4) calls on the Presidency to confirm or deny these reports and, more importantly, to justify this kind of expenditure to the nation.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the revenue budget overrun of R12 million, arising from greater efficiency in collection over the past two tax years, has allowed for a reduced budget deficit, a reduction in tax rates and more social spending;

(2) recognises that the SA Revenue Service will find it very difficult to make further efficiency gains if it is constrained on account of existing capacity, especially in view of the additional administrative burden caused by recently introduced tax arrangements; and

(3) calls on the Minister of Finance to give the SA Revenue Service the resources and autonomy necessary for it to achieve optional success in its efforts to stamp out tax evasion and to achieve a high level of tax morality in South Africa, leading to further tax benefits and greater social spending on education, health and welfare.

[Time expired.]

Ms L A ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the ANC has received complaints from citizens in the Western Cape, alleging that financial institutions are discriminating against them on racial grounds;

(2) believes that such discrimination is in conflict with the fundamental principle of the equality of all South African citizens on which our democratic constitutional state is based;

(3) deplores the statement of the DP that the ANC action is aimed at the local government elections; (4) reminds the DP that the fight of the ANC for equality and nondiscrimination is an historic commitment dating back to its founding in 1912 and not adopted for political expedience and vote- catching; and

(5) supports the call of the Western Cape ANC for an investigation.

[Applause.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) congratulates Zimbabwe on its independence anniversary, but reminds that country that freedom without the rule of law is a hollow concept;

(2) calls on President Mugabe to honour article 3 of the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights, which reads as follows: Every individual shall be entitled to equal protection of the law; and (3) calls on the South African Government to honour its obligations in terms of article 47 of the charter, which reads as follows:

     If a state party to the present charter has good reason to believe
     that another state party to this charter has violated the
     provisions of the charter, it may draw, by written communication,
     the attention of that state to the matter.

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with deep concern -

   (a)  the increase in the number of informal settlers in many parts of
       our country;

   (b)  the shockingly slow pace at which claims before the Land Claims
       Commission are being processed, considered and finalised; and

   (c)  the lack of a co-ordinated nationwide campaign to address
       poverty and unemployment and also the lack of adequate housing;

(2) congratulates all stakeholders on the reported finalisation of the 1 800 Nongqongqo land claims on the West Bank at East London; and

(3) calls upon the Government to -

   (a)  speed up the process of providing serviced building sites to the
       homeless;

   (b)  devise means which will speed up the processing and settlement
       of land claims;

   (c)  evaluate the potential of all Government-owned land for future
       agricultural use;

   (d)  create mechanisms for the allocation of such land to would-be
       farmers; and

   (e)  empower such entrepreneurs by creating agri-co-operatives which
       can provide seeds ... [Time expired.]

Mr N M NENE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the call by our Minister of Finance at the IMF to revise the strategies agreed upon last year to speed up debt relief for the world’s poorest countries, as they are not working;

(2) believes that the requirements to receive relief are a significant obstacle to faster debt relief;

(3) further notes that to obtain relief from the IMF and World Bank, the principal creditors, often other developing countries, have to secure similar levels of debt collection from bilateral lenders, which, in the words of Minister Manuel, is ``immoral and unjustifiable’’; and

 4) calls upon the IMF to look for realistic ways of ensuring that debt
    relief for the poorest countries is implemented speedily to end the
    suffering of the people of those nations. [Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die AEB sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) met waardering kennis neem van die aanwysing en werk van die tegniese advieskomitee insake die beoogde wetgewing oor die Kommissie vir die Bevordering en Beskerming van die Regte van Kultuur-, Godsdiens- en Taalgemeenskappe, soos vervat in artikel 185 van die Grondwet;

(2) vra dat die insette van hierdie tegniese komitee, wat saamgestel is uit verteenwoordigers van die verskillende gemeenskappe in Suid- Afrika, op die hoogste vlak aandag sal kry, sodat die produk nie die eindresultaat van politieke agendas sal wees nie, maar ruimte sal bied vir die noodsaaklike uitlewing van diversiteit in Suid-Afrika;

(3) van mening is, in die lig van die kritieke belang van die beskerming en bevordering van die regte van gemeenskappe vir vrede en stabiliteit binne die diverse Suid-Afrikaanse samelewing, dat toegesien moet word dat die beoogde kommissie gelyke status sal hê met ander grondwetlike kommissies, soos die Menseregtekommissie;

(4) van mening is, in die lig van die omvattende aard van die werksaamhede van die beoogde kommissie, dat die kommissie direk in die Presidentskantoor moet setel …

[Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the AEB:

That the House -

(1) notes with appreciation the appointment and deliberations of the technical advisory committee on the envisaged legislation on the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities contained in section 185 of the Constitution;

(2) asks that the inputs of this technical committee, which consists of representatives from the various communities in South Africa, receive attention at the highest level, so that the product will not be the final result of political agendas, but will leave room for the essential realisation of diversity in South Africa;

(3) in the light of the critical importance of the protection and promotion of the rights of communities to peace and stability within the diverse South African community, is of the opinion that it will have to be ensured that the envisaged commission has a status equal to that of other commissions, such as Human Rights Commission;

(4) in the light of the wide-ranging nature of the activities of the envisaged commission, is of the opinion that the commission should reside directly in the Office of the President …

[Time expired.]]

Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  tomorrow evening is the first day of the Jewish festival of
       Passover, which celebrates the Jewish people's liberation from
       slavery and persecution more than 3 300 years ago; and

   (b)  Passover teaches that no oppressive regime, based on injustice
       and exploitation, can survive for any length of time before
       justice and freedom ultimately prevail; and

(2) resolves to -

   (a)  wish all Jewish South Africans a joyous Pesach;
   (b)  remind ourselves, on this symbolic holiday to celebrate freedom,
       of all South Africans' success in casting off the yoke of
       oppression and creating a free and just nation; and

   (c)  call on all those involved in the Middle Eastern peace process
       to redouble their efforts at this time to ensure that all the
       people are able to live in peace, security, justice and freedom.

[Applause.]

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the illegal occupation of state land at Dukuduku, KwaZulu-Natal,
       continues;

   (b)  this occupation by people, many of whom are illegal immigrants,
       has virtually destroyed a valuable national asset in the
       pristine coastal forest where the land invasion has taken place;

   (c)  this state of affairs has existed for nearly 10 years;

   (d)  both the provincial government of KwaZulu-Natal and the
       Department of Water Affairs and Forestry have been ineffectual
       in resolving this matter;

   (e)  despite efforts to negotiate, offer alternative land and find
       sensible, fair and rational solutions, nothing has happened; and

   (f)  a tiny minority of the community refuses to co-operate and has
       threatened violence against both the state and other Dukuduku
       land invaders ...

[Time expired.]

Mrs I MARS: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) congratulates the various tiers of government for giving satisfactory service to the South African public, as established by a recent survey conducted on behalf of Business Day by Market Research AC- Nielsen MRA; and

(2) encourages everyone concerned to improve further on the good ratings.

Ms H F MALEBANA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that child labour is still prevalent at coalyards in Soweto, despite the promulgation of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act;

(2) further notes that owners of the coalyards insist on employing and exploiting children;

(3) recognises that this kind of labour practice is detrimental to children’s health, safety and wellbeing;

(4) calls on all employers who abuse children in this way to stop this despicable practice; and

(5) calls on the public to support the laws that relate to child labour and basic conditions of employment.

[Applause.]

Mnr F BEUKMAN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) sy ernstige kommer uitspreek oor die bevinding van die Wêreldnatuurfonds dat die oorontginning van see- en skulpvis in Valsbaai en die Kaapse suidkus die ekostelsel finaal kan vernietig;

(2) ‘n beroep op die Minister van Omgewingsake en Toerisme doen om dringend ‘n kommissie van ondersoek aan te stel om die vernietiging van marienebronne in die gebied te ondersoek en aanbevelings aan die Parlement te doen;

(3) versoek dat bykomende fondse deur die Regering bewillig word om wetstoepassing en strafregtelike vervolgings teen die onwettige ontginning van marienebronne op te knap en te versterk;

(4) die Regering versoek om onmiddellik stappe te doen om die voorkoms van onwettige treknetvangste in Valsbaai te beëindig; en

5) 'n beroep op die Departement van Omgewingsake en Toerisme doen om
   dringend 'n openbare opvoedingsprogram te begin om by plaaslike
   gemeenskappe die belang van bewaring en volhoubare ontginning van
   marienebronne in te skerp. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr F BEUKMAN: Mr Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House - (1) expresses its serious concern at the finding by the World Wide Fund for Nature that the overexploitation of marine fish and shellfish in False Bay and along the Cape South Coast could finally destroy the ecosystem;

(2) appeals to the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism urgently to appoint a commission of inquiry to investigate the destruction of marine resources in the area and to make recommendations to Parliament;

(3) requests that additional funding be voted by Government to improve and strengthen law enforcement and criminal prosecutions with regard to the illegal exploitation of marine resources;

(4) requests the Government immediately to take steps to bring to an end the occurrence of illegal trawl-net catches in False Bay; and

(5) appeals to the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism urgently to launch a public awareness programme to impress upon local communities the importance of conservation and sustainable utilisation of marine resources.]

Chief N Z MTIRARA: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with great concern that match fixing has become endemic in South African sports codes and threatens to destroy the healthy competitive spirit that always characterised South African sport in the past;

(2) notes that a case in point is the recently reported taped conversation between officials allegedly discussing the fixing of the MTN League match between Dynamos and City Sharks, where Dynamos won the match; and

(3) calls on the Minister of Sport and Recreation to appoint a commission of inquiry to probe into and root out this cancer before it gets out of control.

              CONGRATULATIONS TO NATIONAL CRICKET TEAM
                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr J J DOWRY: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die huis:

(1) kennis neem en die Protea Krieketspan gelukwens met sy skitterende oorwinning in die reeks van drie eendagwedstryde teen die wêreldkampioen, Australië;

(2) kennis neem dat die oorwinning soveel merkwaardiger is, in die lig van die ongelukkige gebeure die afgelope twee weke rondom die span;

(3) van mening is dat Shaun Pollock en sy span die ware durf en wil van ‘n wennasie het soos Suid-Afrika beklemtoon deur behoorlik wraak te neem vir die teleurstelling van Edgbaston-wêreldbekertoernooi in 1999;

(4) verder van mening is dat die oorwinning tekenend is van die veggees en vermoëns van alle Suid-Afrikaners wat hulle nie laat onderkry deur terugslae nie; en (5) die span sterkte toewens vir die toer na Sri-Lanka en later vanjaar se herontmoeting met die wêreldkampioen in Australië.

Goedgekeur. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr J J DOWRY: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) takes cognisance of and congratulates the Protea cricket team on its splendid victory in the series of three one-day matches against the world champions, Australia;

(2) notes that the victory is so much more remarkable in view of the unfortunate events of the past two weeks with regard to the team;

(3) is of the opinion that Shaun Pollock and his team emphasised the true bravery and willpower of a winning nation like South Africa by properly revenging the disappointment of the Edgbaston World Cup Tournament in 1999;

(4) is further of the opinion that the victory is an example of the fighting spirit and abilities of all South Africans, who do not allow themselves to be beaten by setbacks; and

(5) wishes the team everything of the best for the tour to Sri Lanka and the next meeting with the world champions in Australia.

Applause.

Agreed to.]

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 25 - Welfare:

The MINISTER FOR WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson, hon members, MECs for social welfare and distinguished members of civil society organisations seated on the public gallery … [Applause] … in his opening address to Parliament in February this year, hon President Mbeki made a statement that is of particular significance to social welfare and development. He stated:

… at no other point in time have we ever been as well placed as we are today to take decisive forward steps towards the creation of the humane and people-centred society for which the organisations that were unbanned 10 years ago struggled for many decades.

Today I wish to focus on what steps we have taken towards the creation of the humane and people-centred society that our President referred to in his speech.

During the first period of democratic government, the foundations were laid for a fundamental restructuring of the social welfare system. My predecessor led the introduction of significant policy and legislative changes within the framework of the Constitution and the Reconstruction and Development Programme. The White Paper on Social Welfare and a number of other policies provide examples of policy changes in social welfare.

Establishing an enabling policy and legislative environment to deal with the legacy of apartheid in social welfare provision was an essential and necessary first step in securing basic welfare rights for all, especially the most marginalised and alienated sectors of our society. During this term of Government, the challenge is to consolidate these policy gains and to translate them into programmatic changes so that every citizen, especially those who experience the worst forms of poverty, can begin to see evidence of real change in their daily lives.

The nature and extent of social fragmentation and alienation highlighted the need for a vision and strategy that is responsive to both the structural causes of problems and their social manifestations. These were the imperatives that led to a national consultative process that brought together a range of organisations representing women, children, the disabled, the homeless, poor people, development workers and professional associations during October last year.

Changes at the national level have yet to be translated into real gains for the excluded, particularly women, children and poor people, at provincial and local levels. Transformation, if it has to have meaning for the poor majority, has to be felt at the household level. It is at this level that economic and social conditions are manifested in profoundly unequal gender relations and gender-based violence. The challenge therefore is to sustain the changes in the political sphere and to extend these to households and the poor communities. In many ways, this is the most difficult aspect of the transformation process.

There can be no doubt that persistent and increasing levels of poverty, violence, social inequality and unfulfilled expectations place an enormous challenge on existing social services. The violence experienced by children, women and the elderly is an affront to the type of society that we are building. Added to this is one of the fastest-growing incidences of HIV/Aids in the world. It is poor people who are the most vulnerable to HIV/Aids and HIV/Aids exacerbates poverty.

The age, gender and racial characteristics of South Africa’s population indicate that the most vulnerable households are in the rural, peri-urban and township areas. It is in these areas that infrastructure and services are virtually nonexistent. Low economic growth and high levels of unemployment place increasing demands on the social welfare services.

Since I have been in the Welfare and Population Development portfolio I have had many opportunities to interact with the sector and our intended beneficiaries at provincial and other levels. I met the grandmother in the rural village of Inanda caring for a HIV-positive daughter, the girl-child taken from school to care for her siblings, and the single mother who cannot find a job. I saw the pain on the face of a young child who had been abused and raped in Claremont near Durban. I heard the frustration of a father with a disability who wants to learn new skills in Maokeng, Kroonstad, but has nowhere to turn to. I listened to the anguish of the devastating effect of the loss of a pension or grant in poor families.

All this has been a true journey of discovery. What I have heard and seen has brought me to one conclusion. Despite many courageous and sensitive responses to the challenges faced by the most vulnerable, much more needs to be done. At every level of our society, we need to reverse the degradation and narrative of marginalisation of the poor people, especially women, children and the elderly. This is why we need to act now and act together in unity. But we have to set about this task with a full understanding of our achievements and the challenges that lie ahead. Such an appreciation creates a foundation from which we can translate President Thabo Mbeki’s call for a caring society into reality. To be responsive in this way means that the Department of Welfare has to mobilise our communities to establish a caring society, based on the principle of people first, Batho Pele, for sustainable development. In the light of our mandate and what we heard during the national consultative process, the department has identified the following priorities that we need to address during our term of government.

I will now outline some of our activities and plans which give effect to the social welfare programmes of Government and those of the NGO and voluntary welfare sector in our country. Firstly, the ethic of care and human development must be infused into all our programmes. Our developmental welfare programmes are being redesigned to promote social integration at the level of households, families and communities. We have begun working with civil society organisations, the faith-based community and youth organisations to promote a culture of voluntarism and civic responsibility. We continue to implement an integrated poverty eradication strategy that provides direct benefits to those who are in greatest need, with a sustainable development approach. In other words, we are addressing poverty in rural and urban areas with the prime beneficiaries being women, children, the disabled and the youth. During the past year, we supported 1 933 programmes in all provinces and 15 national programmes. These projects assisted approximately 11 197 women, 2 904 men, 2 055 youth and disabled persons. Detailed information on the projects that have received funds is available on the department’s website. This can be found at www.welfare.gov.za.

Corrective measures have been instituted to deal with problems related to the initial delays in the disbursement of poverty relief funds. These measures include, firstly, a financial audit of the poverty relief disbursements made in the 1997-98 and 1998-99 financial years. Secondly, the responsibilities and roles of national and provincial departments have been clarified and a more varied disbursement process is being negotiated. Accountability structures with detailed guidelines are to be established for all sectors. In addition, I have held a series of meetings with a number of faith-based organisations and NGOs working in the area of poverty relief. Based on these consultations, guidelines are being drawn up on ways of improving the programme management processes in the poverty relief funds.

The role of the Independent Development Trust, IDT, as a disbursement agency, has been very invaluable in the poverty relief programme. Their disbursement role will be enhanced to encompass a monitoring and capacity- building function. This monitoring and evaluation will include a central role for the NGOs and faith-based organisations, and we take this opportunity to thank the IDT for all its endeavours to ensure that all the funds have been distributed.

These protocols will need to have acceptable guidelines for the selection of projects and disbursement procedures, as well as financial and professional accountability and evaluation. We will ensure that the national and provincial departments of welfare have the requisite procedures and systems for effective financial control, management, monitoring and accountability. In this regard we have already acquired the services of financial consultants to provide the necessary assistance. Immediate steps that have been taken to improve the financial management and administrative measures of the welfare function include, firstly, processing the appointment of a chief financial officer; secondly, basic financial training of all officials in the welfare sector; thirdly, filling vacant posts in the finance and internal audit sections as a priority; and, lastly, drafting of a plan with the Department of State Expenditure to improve the expenditure performance of the department.

Further initiatives, as part of the integrated poverty eradication strategy, include community empowerment programmes currently being piloted in the North West and the Eastern Cape. Plans are under way to extend these programmes to Mpumalanga. The main aim of these programmes is to build community capacity to plan and manage a range of locally based development initiatives.

We are expanding the microsave programme in KwaZulu-Natal to the Northern Province and the Eastern Cape, as part of the integrated rural development strategy. These programmes are aimed at strengthening the stokvel-type savings collectives to promote a culture of savings and the economic viability of micro enterprises for poor households, especially for women. We value the partnership with the people’s dialogue, and appreciate the technical support provided by the UNDP and ILO in these programmes.

A key policy objective of our social security system is to provide social assistance to those citizens who are not able to provide for themselves. The social assistance programmes provide benefits to approximately 3 million of the most vulnerable people in our society, namely older persons, persons with disabilities and children under the age of seven.

A major success in the past year was ensuring that the computer systems throughout the welfare system were upgraded to avoid the Y2K bug. Last year all social assistance benefits were paid before the Christmas holidays, so that all our people could enjoy the festive season without undue concern. During the same year, 127 mobile units were deployed in the rural areas to help people obtain identity cards and apply for social assistance benefits. We hereby thank all the MECs in the provinces for the assistance that they gave to this programme.

The uptake rate of the child support grant has increased from 36 000 in April 1999 to 334 000 in March 2000. This represents an increase of almost 1 000%. We acknowledge the role played by faith-based organisations and NGOs in accomplishing this increase, and appeal for their continued support. In seven of the provinces the reregistration process is almost complete. This process is designed to clean the database and eliminate fraud from the system. In the past year, a national call centre was established, which responds to over 100 telephone queries per day from the public concerning social welfare services.

Our disaster relief fund has processed applications for assistance in response to various floods, tornados and veldfires across the country. The department has played a key co-ordinating role in disaster relief within the country and in the region.

Our region is beset with a number of problems requiring us to provide humanitarian assistance. As part of this initiative, we call upon all South Africans to support our solidarity with Angola during the week of 15 May. We want to mobilise the people of South Africa to provide humanitarian assistance to the people of Angola. The objects for enhancing social protection were also adopted by the international community at the World Summit for Social Development in Copenhagen in 1995. The declaration adopted by the summit contained a commitment to ``implement policies that ensure that all people have adequate economic and social protection during unemployment, ill-health, maternity, child-rearing, widowhood, disability and old age’’.

The South African Constitution grants everyone the right to have access to social security and appropriate soci*al assistance for those individuals who are unable to support themselves. It also obliges the state to implement measures to ensure the progressive realisation of these rights. It is, therefore, crucial that we develop a comprehensive social security system that links contributory and noncontributory schemes and prioritises the most vulnerable households.

The Welfare department is leading a critical process this year, investigating issues and proposals for a comprehensive social security system. The ministerial committee established by Cabinet, as part of its brief, has to investigate the extension of social protection to the working poor, unwaged workers and all those currently not covered by any form of assistance.

A new welfare payment system and information service are being established to improve operational efficiency of the welfare system. However, all these initiatives need to be supported by appropriate infrastructural development at provincial level to ensure that pensioners do not suffer in long queues. To ensure that our social security services are reaching those in the greatest need in the most effective manner, we are currently designing a social security audit and monitoring audit. Such a unit will incorporate both Government and civil society representatives.

According to the latest available census information, there are about 2,6 million persons with disabilities in South Africa. This number constitutes about 6% of the total population of this country. The current social assistance programme provides disability benefits to about 610 000 beneficiaries, representing a coverage of over 23% of all people with disabilities in South Africa. The Financial and Fiscal Commission estimates that this coverage constitutes about 56% of all those who are eligible. A review process of services to people with disabilities has been undertaken. This is to ensure that disabled persons participate in planning programmes that promote their human rights and economic development.

A key challenge that we face, not only as a department, but also as a nation, is the ever-increasing violence against women, children and older persons. We have strengthened programmes to respond to the brutal effects of all forms of violence against women, children and older persons. We are also developing effective strategies to deal with the perpetrators. The department has established 60 one-stop service centres through which abused women and children can receive assistance. A commission of inquiry into elderly abuse has been established. The high levels of abuse against elderly persons are unacceptable and need to be addressed urgently. I can clearly inform the House that that committee has already started working.

We have begun consultative work on a national strategic framework for children infected and affected by HIV/Aids. Our developmental welfare programme includes the provision of a range of services to support community-based care for people living with HIV/Aids and those affected, such as Aids orphans.

Urgent attention has been given to the development of a national strategy to reduce the number of young people in trouble with the law and to promote youth development. Our prevention and remedial services for youth have sought to accelerate the transformation of the child and youth care systems to ensure that our interventions are developmental.

We have introduced 15 child and youth care service projects in eight provinces, with development assistance from the government of the Netherlands. One of these projects, Stepping Stones in the Eastern Cape, won an award for innovative service delivery. The government of the Netherlands recommended that it should become an international learning site. These projects have provided best practice models for ongoing work in this field.

Making social welfare services accessible and available to people in rural, peri-urban and informal settlements, as well as ensuring equity in service provision, is critical to the transformation process. In this regard I am pleased to report that in respect of access and coverage, our service provision is increasingly reaching the poorest members of our communities. There is a significant shift away from a race-based welfare system to one that is needs-based. In addition, social welfare services have become more socially and community development oriented. The welfare financing policy is being refined and phased in through an agreed process to ensure the direction of resources to underresourced areas.

Our work is based on our commitment to co-operative governance that includes working with different spheres of government and civil society. In this regard I am pleased to announce that the MECs of the provincial welfare departments, as well as the full range of civil society organisations - including the voluntary welfare sector and faith-based organisations - have engaged with me and the department to find practical solutions to the problems we face. I commend their commitment to addressing the needs of the poorest people, and I am sure that together we can develop a process based on accountability, responsiveness, efficiency and equity.

The Department of Welfare and Population Development has undergone a process of strategic planning to ensure that its programmes are in line with the national priorities identified through the consultative process. Provincial welfare departments have also completed similar processes to align themselves with the national priorities. The national population unit has developed programmes to promote research, capacity-building and advocacy in support of the developmental thrust of the department and Government’s work at both national and provincial level.

A key focus of the unit during this current year, is the research into the socioeconomic impact of HIV/Aids in this country. The national population unit hosted the third African Population Conference in December 1999. The conference gave further impetus to research and policy partnerships in Africa. The United Nations Population Fund is a key partner in this process. On the regional and international front, the department has played a key role in leading initiatives on social development. As chair of the United Nations Commission for Social Development, I have had the privilege of being part of the review and appraisal of Government’s implementation of the Copenhagen commitments on social development.

That there have been many advances in social welfare and development is not in question. However, our capacity as a department to accelerate the delivery of services to those in greatest need is constrained by the limited institutional reforms within the national and provincial departments. Changing the organisational culture, service orientation, training and recruiting of professionals with appropriate skills and knowledge remain a challenge that has to be addressed. An audit of the skills, organisational structure and organisational processes in the entire department has just been completed. This information will contribute to a thorough and systematic overhaul of systems, procedures, human resource planning and performance management processes.

Critical to the process of reorientation is the role of the SA Council for Social Service Professions and its engagement with the social service workers who contribute much-needed services under extremely difficult conditions. With the assistance of the council, we plan to ensure that there are changes to such conditions. Efficient and effective service delivery is a reflection of the calibre of staff in both Government and nongovernmental organisations and agencies. For this reason, it is essential that the full range of social service workers are provided with appropriate training and education relevant to South Africa’s needs. These workers include development, probation, child and youth care, social work and social security staff.

These priorities form part of a systematic, co-ordinated strategy for social development over the next year. They are linked to the department’s medium-term expenditure framework. The mobilisation of national and international resources, including the use of a wider pool of technical expertise, will help us to accelerate service delivery. Many of our achievements are due to the dedicated work of key individuals within the department, members of the Portfolio Committee on Welfare and a range of other organisations in the development sector, and even in civil society. To them I extend my thanks and appreciation.

I would like to invite hon members of this House to join me as I continue my journey in the Welfare and Population Development portfolio. In more concrete terms, they can join me in monitoring the implementation of these national priorities through joint civil society and Government processes. We need to move quickly at all levels to link social development and population concerns to economic strategies, so as to establish socially integrated and caring communities. In reclaiming South Africa’s place in the global community, let us work towards a social development renaissance to eradicate poverty, social inequality, women’s marginalisation, violence and alienation, and to mitigate the impact of HIV/Aids. Let us promote sustainable human development that builds social solidarity. Let us mobilise for a caring society. [Applause.]

Mr E SALOOJEE: Mr Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon Minister for Welfare and Population Development and hon members, on 4 February 2000, in this very Chamber, our President, Thabo Mbeki, called upon all of us to continue to intensify the fight against poverty in our country. In the words of the President:

The elimination of poverty remains one of the central objectives of the Government and the country. Its elimination is fundamental to the realisation of the goal of the restoration of the dignity of all our people.

Furthermore, in giving effect to our vision of a better life for all, we are committed to creating a situation of hope in the lives of millions of people for whom despair has been a way of life.

It is, indeed, not surprising that the media and the opposition have deemed it expedient to focus on one aspect of poverty relief. This Government, in the past year, has spent approximately R18 billion on poverty relief. We should remind ourselves that pensions are poverty relief, disability grants are poverty relief and the child support grants are poverty relief. I intend to address myself here today to the issue of this Government’s significant poverty relief funds and the antipoverty programme in the broader context.

I want to submit that our long-standing and real commitment to the poor and the vulnerable is unquestionable when considering the increase of about R1,2 billion allocated to welfare in the present budget. Furthermore, provincial welfare departments pay monthly benefits to welfare beneficiaries at the cost of about R1,4 billion a month. These benefits go to the most vulnerable in society, the elderly and disabled, as well as to poor families with children.

It is within the broader socioeconomic context that we as the ANC Government have recognised that in South Africa the poorest 40% of households still live below the minimum household subsistence level, and many have no real source of income. However, an example of the process of support for the survival of the poorest and most vulnerable people in our country is Government’s provision of a social safety net in the form of a cash transfer to poor households.

Under the ANC Government, social spending targeted at the poor has shown an increase of approximately 34% between 1994 and 1997. This increased allocation was a direct result of programmes aimed at the poor, such as housing subsidies, poverty relief, child support and a whole host of other benefits. In addition, since 1994, there has been a steady increase in pension and disability grants, particularly for beneficiaries from the rural areas. Old age pensions remain the major component of grant expenditure within welfare.

Recent research has highlighted that 75% of poor households have older persons in receipt of an old age pension, who have children living with them. This point is important to bear in mind. This must be seen as a poverty relief measure of huge significance in our present context, not only in our country but, as researchers will tell you, in the world. It is one of the more equitable grants given in the world.

In the light of this, the value of old age pensions cannot be emphasised enough, as this form of social security targets the poor more generally and is, thus, an effective redistributive and affordable poverty relief measure. In fact, research undertaken last year confirmed that Government’s spending programmes have become more effectively targeted in favour of the poor, with an estimated 50% of spending now going to the poorest 40% of our people.

There is talk that the solution to the widespread poverty in South Africa will come only on the back of high economic growth and the creation of jobs that must result from such growth. Indeed, we have witnessed the effective restructuring and improved international competitiveness of our economy. We are striving towards ever-increasing economic growth and an economic environment favourable for investments. However, let us recognise that in many instances very little benefits have reached those plagued by unemployment and extreme poverty in the deep rural areas, which we must remedy.

The survival of a young child in a very poor household cannot wait for the promise of eventual delivery under the Government’s policy of growth, employment and redistribution. For millions of poor people, the battle to survive is becoming increasingly more difficult and the urgency with which we, as the ANC Government, have to respond has never been more apparent, and that determination to do it is there.

It is not by accident that the welfare sector is fourth in line in terms of the share it received from the 2000-01 Budget. A total of R20,92 billion has been allocated to welfare in the new Budget. The largest part of this Welfare budget is dedicated to poverty relief, to social pensions and to developmental welfare services. However, it remains a serious challenge to us to ensure that welfare recipients benefit from this allocation in a timeous and effective manner.

While it is clear that the ANC Government has provided benefits that directly target those most in need, we must strive to make the social safety net and delivery mechanisms within the welfare sector more efficient. We say that we are the ones who are really determined to see that that efficiency comes about. It is unacceptable that administrative delays may have resulted in increased hardships for poor people who could have benefited from some of these funds. Furthermore, we are compelled to ensure that such administrative shortcomings and blockages within the welfare system do not further add to the suffering of beneficiaries who have had their grants temporarily suspended, often with little warning. Our Minister says that, too, and he commits himself to that.

One of the ways in which to strengthen delivery of poverty funds in the short run is by implementing an integrated poverty strategy. Such an integrated poverty strategy must have as its ultimate aims to decrease the economic vulnerability of the poor and unemployed and to attain, in the words of our President, the realisation of the goal of the restoration of the dignity of all our people.

However, in effecting significant transformation on the scale that we have done, with an inherited apartheid-style welfare administration, is no mean feat. It is, therefore, not reasonable to expect efficient delivery of services over a relatively short period of time, given the structural obstacles we have had to overcome. In acknowledging the shortcomings and, in some instances, nondelivery, we want to say that we do not want to tell lies nor do we want to claim easy victories.

In addressing ourselves to the issue of unspent poverty funds, the welfare portfolio committee’s recent engagement with the director-general and other senior welfare officials has sought to highlight, and bring into focus, the lack of administrative and financial management capacity within the Department of Welfare. We would have been remiss in our responsibilities to the poor, if we did not address the shortcomings in the department. We have proposed that developing such capacity is necessary, and it is overdue. Significant changes such as the filling of key posts, the development of financial management competence and the establishment of systems for monitoring and evaluation will result in more effective delivery of funds and services.

Such effective, targeted spending on poverty relief will impact positively on the lives of beneficiaries. Furthermore, we have to make sure that our developmental policies bear fruit for those who depend on our commitment and our support. We are confident that these proposed improvements will be effected within the Department of Welfare. They will change profoundly the way in which allocations are disbursed and money is spent.

We are very encouraged by the Minister’s commitment to making the development of capacity and transformation within the department his highest priority within the coming months. We have also expressed our concern at the slow take-off rate of the child support grant, as a target of reaching 3 million of the poorest children was established. We are encouraged to hear from the Minister that the current number of beneficiaries will increase dramatically in the months ahead. This is something that we are determined to do and it is something that the portfolio committee will be overseeing in a very careful way.

The initial strategy for targeting our country’s poorest children is to be followed by broader coverage, to ultimately include all the country’s poor. In the light of the slow pace of delivery, it seems clear that comprehensive coverage will be somewhat delayed. If these children remain hungry and have parents with no visible means of support, we have failed those children by not providing them with support to ensure their protection and development.

Allow me to consider our collective responsibility and commitment to the children who are in need of care in our country. Our children’s youth should be seen as a time of hope that can either blossom or be stifled by the challenges they face. Comprehensive child care legislation is in its final stage of development. This will afford children additional legal protection to affirm their rights.

I offer further proof of the ANC Government’s commitment to the elderly, children, the nonprofit welfare sector and the disabled. In recognition of our responsibility, we have seen fit, in the present Budget, to include a provision of tax relief for nonprofit organisations that provide essential services to the poor, including services for disabled people. A further positive aspect of the Budget is that private donations to preprimary and primary schools, children’s homes and organisations caring for the aged will be tax deductible. We expect that these organisations will benefit from increased community contributions. On the issue of the underspending of poverty funds, let me give members the facts. We, as members of the ANC within the Portfolio Committee on Welfare, see our oversight role as one of the key aspects … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs P W CUPIDO: Mr Chairperson and hon colleagues, President Mbeki, in his address at the start of the second term of Parliament in June 1999, opened with the words [Hansard, Joint Sitting, 1999, col 2]:

Steadily, the dark clouds of despair are lifting, giving way to our season of hope.

At the dawn of a new life, our practical actions must ensure that none can challenge us when we say - we are a nation at work to build a better life!

Daar is geen twyfel nie dat dié beter lewe slegs vir sekeres bedoel is. Miljoene Suid-Afrikaners word gefolter deur verwaarlosing, teleurstelling en hopeloosheid en is nou vir die sesde jaar van die nuwe regering vasgevang in ‘n groef van armoede, sonder ‘n teken van verligting in sig.

Niks kan nader aan die waarheid wees nie as die realiteit van die dag. Die realiteit is dat die Departement van Welsyn reeds as ‘n noodtoestand verklaar moes gewees het. [Tussenwerpsels.] Sedert 1994 het hierdie departement al vyf direkteurs-generaal in vyf jaar gehad en drie Ministers in ses jaar. Daar was ook die uitvloei van 50 top-personeellede in drie jaar, vele wie se poste nog vakant is. Daar is wel begroot vir 40 poste, maar geen aanstellings is gedoen nie. Nog ‘n realiteit is dat die poste van die direkteur, adjunkdirekteur en selfs sekretaresse in die interne ouditafdeling nog vakant is. Vir die afgelope vier jaar was daar geen finansiële bestuurder in hierdie departement nie. Die staat het nou geëis dat dié pos binne drie maande gevul word.

Altesame R500 miljoen wat vir die vorige boekjaar begroot is, is oorgerol omdat dit nie gebruik is nie. ‘n Bedrag van R203 miljoen hiervan was beoog vir armoedeverligting. Die Minister en sy departement beskik nie oor die vermoë om geld wat vir die armes beoog is aan hulle beskikbaar te stel nie.

Die voormalige Minister vir Welsyn en Bevolkingsontwikkeling, Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, het in die verlede 10 uit 10 gekry vir haar hantering van haar departement. Met dié dilemma wat tans in die departement heers, weet ek nie of die Minister in die verlede enige punte werd was nie. Die Kabinet het haar verskoon, maar ek meen dat sy aan hierdie Huis ‘n verduideliking verskuldig is.

Dit is die eerste keer dat die staat by ‘n departement moes ingryp, soos die Komitee oor Openbare Rekenings moes doen. Dit op sigself dui op ‘n mosie van wantroue in die huidige Minister, wat reeds 10 maande lank hierdie pos beklee sonder enige duidelike, konstruktiewe beplanning met haalbare doelwitte en sperdatums om sy departement reg te ruk. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[There is no doubt that this better life is only intended for certain people. Millions of South Africans are being tortured by neglect, disappointment and hopelessness and are still, in the sixth year of the new Government, trapped in poverty, with no sign of relief at all.

Nothing can be closer to the truth than the reality of the day. The reality is that the Department of Welfare should already have been declared a state of emergency. [Interjections.] Since 1994, this department has had five directors-general in five years, and three Ministers in six years. Then there was also the resignation of 50 top staff members in three years, many of whose posts are still vacant. Forty posts were, in fact, budgeted for, but no appointments have been made. Another reality is that the posts of the director, the deputy director and even the secretary in the internal audit division, are still vacant. For the past four years there has been no financial manager in this department. The state has now demanded that this post be filled within three months.

A total amount of R500 million budgeted for the previous financial year was rolled over because it was not utilised. Of this, an amount of R203 million was intended for poverty relief. The Minister and his department are not able to make money intended for the poor available to them.

The former Minister for Welfare and Population Development, Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, scored 10 out of 10 in the past for her management of her department. With this dilemma prevailing in the department at present, I do not know whether the Minister should have earned any points in the past. The Cabinet excused her, but I think she owes this House an explanation.

This is the first time that the state has had to intervene in a department, as the Committee on Public Accounts had to do. This in itself can be regarded as a motion of no confidence in the present Minister, who has held this post for 10 months now without any clear, constructive planning with feasible goals and deadlines to put his department in order.]

Dr Zola Skweyiya must stop hiding behind the bad performance of his predecessor. He must take the initiative and transform his department into a delivery machine.

Die huidige direkteur-generaal, me Angela Bester, het duidelike leiding en ondersteuning nodig om stabiliteit in haar departement te verseker en om sodoende rigting en moed aan haar personeel te gee. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The present director-general, Ms Angela Bester, needs clear guidance and support to ensure stability in her department and in this way to give her staff direction and courage.] I do, however, foresee extreme difficulties for Ms Bester, because of the history of mismanagement and fraudulent activities within her department. [Interjections.] Will money for the poor ever reach them while we have some Government officials who have no concern for their wellbeing and while there is no proper ministerial guidance to oversee effective management, which has resulted in the unauthorised payment of Government funds, as stated by the Auditor-General in his report of 31 March 1999?

My colleague Aumi Singh, in his speech, will address all the issues regarding pensioners, disabled persons and children, while I will highlight a few findings concerning young people at risk.

Prepayments totalling R766 000 were made to 13 organisations without the required Treasury approval. That reminds me of the fact that the Independent Development Trust has just reported to the portfolio committee that it had received a list of approved projects from the department that it needed to fund from the unspent roll-over millions, but apparently it was found …

Mr B W KANNEMEYER: Chairperson, I want to find out if the hon member is prepared to take a question.

Mrs P W CUPIDO: No! [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! No, she is not prepared to take a question. [Interjections.] Order! Members, you are making rather too much noise! Please continue, hon member.

Mrs P W CUPIDO: The department gave a list of approved projects to the IDT which were supposed to be funded from the roll-over millions, but apparently the IDT found that 350 of the 2 300 approved projects did not even exist or were irregular. An unauthorised payment of R350 000 was made to an organisation before a contract was entered into, R50 000 was paid to a project that was not even related to welfare and the Auditor-General also disclosed that a person who is not a Government official had countersigned numerous payment advices. Furthermore, an amount of R2,7 million that was budgeted for the flagship programme, Unemployed Women with Children under Five, was not utilised and never reached the people it was intended for.

Where do we go from here? The DP says that the ANC Government must stop struggling and start governing. The struggle is supposed to be over. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It must implement significant interdepartmental training programmes in order to lift the level of competency in all departments; eradicate all racial appointments and appoint people with the necessary qualifications and skills, irrespective of race or colour; and create economic growth so that the signs will read Employees wanted, apply within'' and notSorry, no jobs!’’. Cabinet Ministers must be held accountable for their departments, improve internal controls and restructure finance and procurement measures.

The DP exercises its mandate from the voters to be an effective watchdog over Government matters. It will surely work towards becoming the alternative government, and with the flood of people, including traditional ANC supporters, who are now coming over to the DP, the alternative government will be realised sooner rather than later.

Hierdie Regering moet Suid-Afrika op die weg van hoër groei en beter lewering van dienste plaas, sodat daar verligting kan kom vir die armstes van die armes. President Mbeki moet self agter die stuur inklim. Mense wat nie aan die taak toegewyd is nie, moet langs die pad afgelaai word. Maak die mense van hierdie land ‘n trotse nasie. Laat die vlag van Suid-Afrika in elke klaskamer, elke werkplek en elke huis wapper. Dit sal tot nasiebou en patriotisme lei, wat tans nêrens te bespeur is nie.

Mense wil gelukkig wees. ‘n Man soek ‘n werk om sy gesin te onderhou. Hy soek brood op sy tafel en sy kinders moet in die skool wees. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[This Government must place South Africa on the road to higher growth and better delivery of services, so that there can be relief for the poorest of the poor. President Mbeki must take the lead himself. People who are not dedicated to the task, should be dropped off along the way. Make the people of this country a proud nation. Let the flag of South Africa fly in every classroom, every workplace and every home. This will lead to nation- building and patriotism, of which there is no sign at the moment.

People want to be happy. A man wants employment so he can support his family. He wants bread on his table, and his children must be at school.] If they cannot deliver that, they must remember that the people voted them into Government and if they fail them, they will vote them out of Government. That is why an alternative government will have to be prepared. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mrs I MARS: Mr Chairman, Mr Minister, in his state of the nation address the President said:

The good that has been done puts into very sharp relief everything that still has to be done to extricate millions of our people from the conditions of poverty …

He also said:

The elimination of poverty remains one of the central objectives of the Government and the country.

In view of the damaging publicity given to the poverty relief programme, it is actually necessary to examine the facts surrounding this issue. It is our understanding that the department engaged in a number of poverty relief projects and we know from the department’s 1998-99 annual report that there are currently 1 933 provincial and 15 national projects.

During an extensive briefing by the IDT we confirmed that its role is clearly defined by a memorandum of agreement which defines its role as that of a disbursement agency and, furthermore, that the building of financial and administrative capacity of cluster agents who actually deal with the projects is a further requirement of the service. Payments are made in terms of three tranches and the money is only transferred when certain conditions have been fulfilled. It is, therefore, reasonable to have a certain roll-over which, in any case, requires Treasury approval. It is our understanding that all available funds have either been spent or are committed.

This understanding, however, does not necessarily imply approval of the system. Poverty alleviation is a fairly recent additional activity of the department. My party feels that the portfolio committee’s oversight role can be vastly enhanced once the department releases to it a detailed list of all projects undertaken in terms of the poverty relief programme, with details of their location, cost, number of beneficiaries and the names of cluster agents. We understand that this information is readily available from the department’s data bank, which contains all the information that has been supplied to it by the IDT. My party will formally request this information and we hope that the Minister will support this request.

At the public accounts committee meeting on Welfare, the chairman asked the department to prioritise the appointment of a well-qualified financial manager, a request which the IFP fully endorses. The urgency of this matter cannot be overemphasised.

It should also be noted that the chairperson of the public accounts committee was critical of the welfare committee for its perceived lack of oversight. I would like to state that the Chairperson of the welfare committee drew our and the department’s attention to a number of issues. Obviously, the many presentations that we attended did not reveal to us the fact that there was an urgent need for the appointment of a financial manager. Once again, we ask the department for an organogram that gives details of the heads of departments, with contact numbers and descriptions of their line functions.

In welfare, where all functions are people-oriented - vulnerable people at that - lines of communication between the departments, those at national and provincial level, need to be opened up so that we as public representatives are able to address problems on the ground with minimal bureaucracy. It also appears to us that no matter how good the planning, authorisation, management and monitoring processes appear to be in theory, empowering the elected representatives with information can only add to the effectiveness of the over 2 000 projects and other programmes.

The department needs to understand that when we return to our constituencies, we are able to receive first-hand information of the standing of a project from the community. It is the politicians who are held responsible by the public, and not the department. The IFP also wishes to record that the pension increase of R20 is welcome. However, in real terms, taking inflation into account, there is a decrease in the spending power of 1,7%. We urge the Minister to keep this in mind when he next increases pensions. We have to accept the realities. Old age pensions are, and have been for a considerable time, the main contribution to poor households, which, with job losses and the addition of Aids orphans, carry an ever-increasing burden.

My party also wants urgent attention focused on the many Aids orphans. It is expected that there could be 700 000 to 1 million by the end of the year

1. We have to consider how we can give these children an opportunity to obtain an education, without relying on grandparents, siblings and other family members to further share their meagre incomes. We need to ask ourselves; what happens to these children when their grandparents die, pension income is no longer available to the household, and the unemployed siblings and other care-givers are unable to fulfil even the most basic requirements of these children? Perhaps the department has thought this matter through and has plans in hand. If so, this is part of the information that we urgently require.

Welfare has R75 million available to fight the HIV/Aids epidemic. The planned amount for 2000-01 is R125 million and R300 million for 2002-03. May we be informed how this money is to be applied and what programmes are in place, or do we assume that these amounts will be given to provincial governments?

We find it encouraging that the partnership with NGOs, church organisations and others - something that we have pleaded for - appears to be accepted. We would urge that the partnership protocols be finalised as a matter of urgency in order to strengthen these organisations in the valuable work undertaken by them. We also support the Minister’s proposal that at provincial level, the monitoring and assessment structures include NGOs and other concerned organisations.

Further concerns expressed by the IFP caucus revolve around programmes for the physically challenged and senior citizens. Programmes need to be devised and implemented at NGO and local government levels. We therefore plead that attention be paid to these special needs. We note with pleasure that nonprofit organisations that are caring for the aged, the handicapped and offer other essential services to the poor will benefit from some financial relief.

There are, of course, many other issues arising from the budget which need to be addressed. I have already raised the question of the low uptake of the child support grant which, incidentally, has not been increased from R100, thereby losing 5,5% in real terms. We understand that there will be an increased uptake, with the ultimate aim of reaching 3 million children. The current monthly addition of an integrated R20 000 raises the question of the decreased budget provision from R91 million to R90 million for the year 2000-01.

There are many more questions and concerns, but we feel that with improved communication between the portfolio committee and the department, resulting in a more productive dialogue, many of these concerns can be addressed before they become controversial budget issues. We wish to express our thanks to the hon the Minister for his 10-point plan which defines Welfare’s obligation to our citizens and assure him that the IFP wants to be an effective partner in implementing the goals set by him. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr B G MBULAWA-HANS: Mr Chairperson and hon Minister, I do not think that I should waste my time with the hon member Cupido who does not even understand when presentations are made in the portfolio committee. She is a shame, because she does not even understand the constitutional obligations of the present Government. I am not sure whether the DP is really a watchdog or a noisemaker. [Laughter.] Mrs Cupido needs to remember that when she was a member of the NP, Abe Williams was the Minister of Welfare. What did he do, and what would she do to help? She should not come and waste our time here. She is actually a shame to her party because she does not understand why she is in Parliament. [Interjections.]

We are aware of certain problems in our social security system, but I think that it is necessary to reflect on the progress that we have made as the ANC-led Government in providing this crucial safety net. In 1980 pensions for Africans were R33, paid every two months, compared to R122 for whites. During a parliamentary debate on the health and welfare Vote, a certain Mr Brian Goodall of the then PFP said that there would be a rapid increase in the number of older persons, and the cost of old age pensions could … [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, is the hon member prepared to take a question?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, would you take a question? Dr B G MBULAWA-HANS: Nonsense, I am not taking any questions! [Laughter.]

The cost of the equalisation of pensions for coloureds and Indians would be considerable, he said. He suggested that legislation should be introduced to compel employers to create compulsory pension funds for their employees. The gist of the member’s sentiment was clearly that the Government could not be expected to carry the burden of equalising pensions. Yet this Government does provide such pensions, costing about R12 billion annually. The point is that the member I have just referred to is now the leader of the DP in Gauteng. This is the party which is suddenly the champion of the poor. No wonder that they have to do a meet-the-people tour at the beginning of the year - the poor are very new to their constituency.

The ANC, however, has struggled since 1912 and has a history of being concerned with, and driven by, the needs of the poor. Amongst these are, of course, older persons, who are often frail, with no families left and dependent on care and protection from elsewhere. The abuse of older persons is a matter of grave concern to the ANC-led Government. Section 12(1) of the Constitution clearly states that all persons shall have the right to be free from all forms of violence from either public or private sources, as well as the right not to be treated or punished in a cruel, inhuman or degrading way. The passing of the Aged Persons Amendment Act must be seen as an important milestone in our effort to protect and defend the human dignity of all our senior citizens. This Act aims to prevent the abuse of older persons, and draft regulations in this regard have been completed by the department.

One of the features of these regulations is the proposed establishment of a national register, in which the particulars of abusers of older persons will be recorded. The regulations focus on people in institutional care, but we know that abuse is not limited to these institutions. Therefore we need to sensitise our communities to the fact that older persons also have a recourse to protection in terms of the Domestic Violence Act. Here co- operation would be required between welfare service providers, community policing forums and the Departments of Justice and of Safety and Security to ensure that communities - in this case specifically older persons - are informed of the protection they enjoy in terms of this Act.

Planning for social welfare services, therefore, never included making provision for the majority of the population, that is by the previous NP government in which the hon Cupido was serving. Therefore we have inherited an unrealistic overemphasis on institutional care. Coupled with these, there are few real alternatives in place for disadvantaged communities, where often social support systems have disintegrated.

Institutional care is no longer seen as a large-scale feasibility - our approach is focused rather on the family as the first line of care and support - because it is unaffordable, impersonal and removes people from their communities. There is general consensus that we should develop models for community frail care services. The department has, therefore put in place a policy framework to enable a shift from limited state resources in institutions for the older persons to a community-based social care system which will be accessible to all.

An important principle in this approach is the sharing of the responsibility of caring for older persons by individuals, families, communities and Government. It means not just sending older people away because it has become difficult for us to care for them, but accepting the responsibility to care for those people who, in the past, had been the care- givers and strength of our communities. One of the advantages of this paradigm shift is that when older persons are kept within the community, they can contribute and continue to contribute to that community.

Providing home-based care involves training members of the community to respond to older persons’ needs in respect of nutrition, exercise, social interaction and medical care. In this regard, Government must seek to strengthen the partnership it has with NGOs and faith-based organisations, because these are the people best positioned to provide such care.

This must serve as another indication of our commitment to enhancing the quality of life for all our senior citizens. However, Government cannot do it alone. Therefore, we call on our partners in civil society to continue the work they are doing, and to serve the people and the Government of the day. [Applause.]

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Mr Chairperson, in addressing this Vote today, one is tempted to fall into the same trap as the DP, viz that of spending a lot of time on the unspent funds that were budgeted for poverty relief in the country. I am of the opinion that this debate has already taken place in the media and in the portfolio committee. All that remains to be said, once again, is that the Government has failed dismally to fulfil its promises to the poor and the destitute. Let it echo in their ears, but even more, let it burn into their hearts: They have failed, they have failed, they have failed! [Laughter.]

I want to be positive by turning my attention to the road ahead and some of the challenges that will face the department in the near future and in the years to come. I want to quote from a statement by the hon the Minister during the launch of a 10-point programme of action during January this year. He said:

This disintegration of our social fabric - of family and community life - is a reality that has not been acknowledged at a fundamental level.

Our special policies assume the ability of families and communities to respond to the crisis. Welfare has proceeded as if these social institutions are fully functional and provide the full range of social support that is required to restore the wellbeing of the people. Such a business-as-usual-approach cannot continue.

In spite of the restructuring of the department it still lacks the ability to address the fragmentation of the policy network between the various branches within the department. The department will have to redesign its operational system and maximise its resources towards service delivery. The fact that there are still 147 vacant posts within the department’s staff requirement of 389 is a major contributory factor to poor service delivery.

Die departement sal homself moet toespits op die behoorlike opleiding van personeel op bestuursvlak aangesien dit een van die grootste leemtes is wat deur nuwe direkteur-generaal geïdentifiseer is. Laat my dan toe om in hierdie stadium me Bester alle sterkte toe te wens met die enorme taak wat sy het om die departement van die grond af op te tel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The department will have to concentrate on the proper training of staff at management level, as this is one of the biggest shortcomings identified by the new director-general. Allow me then at this stage to wish Ms Bester everything of the best with the enormous task she has to get the department on a sound footing.]

I trust that she, unlike her predecessors, will have the necessary staying power.

Section 27(1) of the Constitution stipulates that all citizens are entitled to social security and that social assistance will be given to people who are unable to provide for themselves. It is unfortunate, therefore, that the department lacks the ability to deliver to these people. How does one explain to a person who qualifies for an old age grant that she has to wait for more than two years, from March 1998 to April 2000, when she complied with all the requirements? Mrs O’Reilley from Helenvale in northern Port Elizabeth is one of the many thousands of South African citizens who are suffering this fate. I can show the Minister proof - here is the copy. The first application is dated March 1997. The enquiry was in October 1999. The second application was made in December 1999. It is now April 2000, but there is nothing yet. There is no trace of the second application in the department. What is the department going to do? [Interjections.] Although there are some people in society who benefit from the Government’s child support grant, there are also thousands of people who are suffering due to the Government’s new belief that a child stops being a child at the age of seven years. I believe that the Government will have to review its policy on the payment of the child support grant.

We, in the New NP, believe that the provision of money on a monthly basis for people who are poor and destitute and who are making use of the system to provide for themselves can never be the long-term solution. Eradicating poverty is a very complex process, a process that needs to be driven tirelessly by people who are motivated and who understand the process. The most important key factor in poverty alleviation is job creation. The Government has a role to play by creating a climate for economic growth.

Coming from the Eastern Cape … [Interjections.]

Mr E S MAGASHULE: Mr Chairperson, will the hon member take a question?

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Mr Chairperson, I will not take a question now.

Coming from the Eastern Cape, I want to thank the Ministers concerned for the announcement of the Coega development project in Port Elizabeth. I trust that the Eastern Cape as a whole will benefit by this project. In a province in which the unemployment figure is estimated at 54%, creating jobs should be the number one priority.

Poverty eradication should not only be the responsibility of one Government department. There must be an integrated poverty eradication strategy with interministerial collaboration and interdepartmental co-operation. The Government must build on the foundation that was laid at the national consultative process during October last year and should consult the key role-players on an ongoing basis. The full process of the public-private partnerships must be managed and monitored continuously to optimise the intended benefit to the beneficiary communities.

In conclusion, one has to realise that the role and the responsibility of this department is to utilise the funds and the resources available to touch and improve the lives of all those people who lack because of circumstances beyond their control. The task of the Government is to improve the quality of life of the poor, to protect the children, to take care of the elderly and the disabled and to drive the process, but it is also expected of every responsible member of this Parliament actively to contribute towards the process. The New NP will support the Vote.

Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Mr Chairperson, I am a rural woman who was marginalised and disadvantaged by the whites who are here.

Ndi wone uyu muhasho u dzhielaho tshumelo … [U dzhenelela.] [It is this department that renders services … [Interjections.]]

Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: I would suggest that the context within which the member made that statement is an incitement to racism. I would like her to withdraw that remark.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, would you please withdraw those words.

Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Mr Chairperson, I do not see the relevance of withdrawing. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, that is my ruling. Could you withdraw those words?

Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw.

Ndi wone Muhasho wa Vhulondavhathu wo zwi dzhielaho nṱha uri vhafumakadzi vha mahayani vha vhavhalelwe ngauri ndi vhone vho shayesaho zwihulwanesa. Kha miṅwaha miṱanu, sa zwe Phuresidennde wa shango vha amba uri hu fanela u fheliswa vhushai kha vhafumakadzi vha mahayani vho tambulaho vhukuma.

Muhasho wo vhetshela thungo R9 milioni uri hu khwinisiwe vhutshilo ha vharema na vhafumakadzi vha mahayani. Ri tshi sedza zwo bveledzwaho nga muhasho uyu, ri wana zwi zwinzhi. Muhasho wo vhea dzikomiti dzi no nga Minmec uri dzi lavhelese mvelaphanḓa ine ya khou itea kha thandela dzi re mahayani.

Phuresidennde vho zwi sumbedza uri ndi rine ri fanelaho u rangela phanḓa lushaka, ri na vhusedzi ha u vhona uri vhathu vhashu vha khou tshila nga nḓila ifhio. Ra sedza vhutshilo ha mahayani, zwihulwane vhafumakadzi vho tsikeledziwaho, muhasho washu wo zwi vhona uri vhathu vha mahayani vha tea uri vhutshilo havho hu shanduke. Ra sedza kha thandela dzi re hone, zwo vhonala uri hu fanela u itiwa ngudiso uri vha vhe na nḓivho ya u tshimbidza thandela dzine vha vha nadzo nga nḓila yone na uri masheleni a vhulungiwe hani. Ndi wonoyu Muhasho wa Vhulondavhathu une wa nea ngudiso idzo uri vhathu vha tshile nga nḓila i fushaho. Arali ra sedza vhushayi hu re mahayani, ri a kona u zwi vhona uri vhafumakadzi vha mahayani vho tsikeledzwa zwi vhavhaho u bva murahu. Muhasho washu wo kona kha u ita zwithu zwinzhi. (Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraphs follows.)

[It is the Department of Welfare which recognised that rural women should be taken care of because of their poor condition. This was also echoed by the hon the President who supported the eradication of poverty amongst rural women.

The department has set aside R9 million for the improvement of rural black people including women. We have observed that this department has improved a lot of things. The department has also established committees like Minmec in order to monitor rural development projects.

The hon the President has indicated that we should be the first to look into the livelihood of our people. That is why our department has realised the necessity of uplifting the lives of rural people. When we look at the projects involved, we realise that training and management of financial resources are important. The department has therefore embarked on the kind of training required, which will benefit people. The process has improved rural women’s lives, for they are emerging from their disadvantaged situation of the past.]

The co-operation of the department with other Government departments such as Water Affairs, Trade and Industry, Agriculture, Transport, Tourism and others achieved the following: Firstly, rural-based projects aligned with integrated, sustainable rural development strategies; secondly, the development of workers identified and appointed urgently from benefiting communities, thus ensuring that the poverty relief fund is directed to the poorest of the poor; and, thirdly, immediate attention to the training development of workers in facilitating development and management of projects.

Minisiṱa vho zwi sumbedza zwino kha tshipitshi tshavho uri ri funa u vhona tshanduko kha vhutshilo ha vhathu vha mahayani vho tambulaho. Ḽihoro ḽa NP ḽe ḽa vhusa nga itsho tshifhinga, ḽine ḽa ri zwino ndi ḽiswa, ḽo ita mini zwine ra khou vhona zwi zwiswa? Ri khou vhona vhukwila hu itiwaho nga nḓila ntswa. Vhushayi ha vhathu mahayani ndi hune na vhafumakadzi vha lusa nga u ḓitika vhutshiloni havho nga mavu.

Mulayo wa 1913 wa Mavu wo itisa uri vhatshena vha dzhie mavu a 87% ngeno vharema vho sala na 13%. A ho ngo lavheleswa uri vhathu vhanzhi shangoni ḽashu ndi riṋe na uri ri tshila nga mavu. Zwibveledzwa zwa mavu zwo ita uri vhathu vha kone u rengisa zwiṅwe uri vhana vhavho vha ye zwikoloni. Muvhuso uno u rangiwaho phanḓa nga ANC ndi wone une zwino wa khou ita tshanduko ya u vhuyedzedza mavu kha vhaṋe vhao. Ndi hone vhathu vha tshi khou thoma u tshila khwine.

Maambiwa a mahoro mahanedzi ha khou ḓisa tshanduko ngauri tshe ra thetshelesa ṋamusi a ri khou pfa na muthihi a ambaho nga ha vhafumakadzi vha mahayani vha ṱoḓaho tshanduko. Hu na dzithandela dzine dza khou bveledza zwiṅwe zwi no nga hezwi zwe nda ambara. Dzi luka makunda, malungu na u runga miṅwenda. Vhafumakadzi vha dovha vha vhumba dzikhali, u suka zwidina na zwiṅwe zwinzhi. Hezwo ndi vhuṱanzi ho fhelelaho ngauri na muvhuso u khou dzhenisa tshanḓa khazwo uri vhutshilo hu khwinisiwe.

Ndi uno muvhuso wa ANC une wa khou vhuedzedza tshirunzi tsha vhafumakadzi uri vha zwi ḓivhe uri na vhone ndi vhadzulapo vha Afurika Tshipembe. Ri vhona zwi zwihulwane zwo itwaho nga uyu muhasho. U dovha wa shumisana na madzangano ane a si vhe a muvhuso na IDT ine ya thusa sa dzhendedzi ḽa mvelaphanḓa.

Murangaphanḓa wa uyu muhasho Vho-Skweyiya vha na bono ḽine vha ḓivha uri lushaka lu ya ngafhi. Vhafumakadzi vha mahayani kha vha ḓihudze nga uyu muhasho une wa ḓivha uri hu na Vho-Nyamasindi, Vho-Nyasivhe na vhaṅwe-vho.

Kha zwiṅwe zwi itwaho nga vhafumakadzi, ri vhona fhano Western Cape hu na thandela ya u foroma zwidina zwo fhaṱaho dzinnḓu dze dza leludza mushumo wa Muhasho wa Zwa Nnḓu. Vhathu vha renga nnḓu nga mutengo wa fhasi, zwine zwa vha mvelaphanḓa.

Ri tshi ya Mpumalanga, vhathu vha na thandela ya u ita na u akha ḓaraṱa, ine ya vha mushumo u vhuyedzaho. Ndi a livhuha ngauri ANC yo ita zwihulwanesa. [U fhela ha tshifhinga.] [U vhanda zwanḓa.] (Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraphs follows.)

[The hon the Minister has indicated in his speech that we have to see a change in the lives of the rural communities that suffered before. What new things did the NP, which now claims to be new, do during its term of governance? All that we see is a new way of misleading us. The poor rural people and women depend on land for their survival.

The Land Act of 1913 made 87% of land available to whites and blacks were left with only 13%. There was no consideration for the majority of the people and the fact that we blacks survive on land. The produce from agriculture allowed us to live well and we had an income for other expenses, such as educating our children. The ANC-led Government is making changes by also giving land back to its rightful owners. This will indeed improve the lives of people.

The opposition parties are not in favour of change, since they do not even say anything about changing the lives of rural women. Women are involved in projects that are making clothes and traditional wear similar to what I am now wearing. They make bangles and do beadwork, including traditional dresses. Women also do pottery, make bricks and other things. This is proof of their progress and the contribution that the Government is making towards their improvement.

It is this ANC-led Government which is restoring the dignity of women so that they realise that they are also citizens of South Africa. We applaud this Government for doing these great things. It is also working with NGOs, including the IDT which is a vehicle of development.

The hon Minister Skweyiya has a progressive vision for leading our people. Rural women should be proud of his department which recognises women like Nyamasindi, Nyasivhe and others.

Amongst other things being done by women, we see a brick-making project in the Western Cape, which has facilitated the building of houses by the Department of Housing. People are buying low-cost houses and that is progress.

In Mpumalanga, people have wire-making projects which are profitable. I am grateful to the ANC for the work done. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Prof L M MBADI: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, Ministers of various departments and colleagues, allow me, firstly, to congratulate the Minister, Dr Zola Skweyiya, on his appointment as Minister for Welfare and Population Development, and his equally newly appointed director-general, Angela Bester, who, by the looks of things, is rallying to the task of delivering. The UDM wishes the two the best of everything in their mammoth tasks of delivering services to the poorest of the poor.

The department’s aim to facilitate sustainable human development through the provision of welfare services and developmental projects is reflected in the budget, through the amount allocated for the year 2000-01, which is R341,906 million, and the amount allocated for 1999-2000, which was R185,429 million. The difference of R156 477 million represents an increase of 84,39%. The UDM appreciates this increase and hopes it will go where it is intended.

However, when one looks at critical areas such as social security, one realises that there is a decrease in the allocation. For example, the amount allocated for the year 1999-2000 was R75,874 million, and the amount voted for the year 2000-01 is R73,110 million. This is a difference of R2,764 million, which represents a decrease of 3,62%. The reason given for this decrease is that this is the result of the restructuring of the department and the redeployment of officials in the department.

The social development programme sees an increase of R153,848 million. The increase is ascribed to the restructuring of the department and redeployment of officials in the department. The increase will enable the department to fulfil its aim of developing, implementing and monitoring policies, strategies and regulation of social development and public- private partnerships.

A fair share of the national Budget has been allocated to the department for poverty alleviation. These poverty relief funds are being used in development projects at community level, strengthening the developmental thrust of the work of the department. The fact that these funds are allocated to a range of NGOs that focus on poverty alleviation through community programmes will enable the communities to own the projects and to participate fully in the implementation. The involvement of communities is highly commendable.

However, concerns have been expressed over the increasing proportion of underexpenditure by the Department of Welfare since 1996-97. I have the privilege of having received an explanation for this underexpenditure from the Minister, for which I am very grateful. I am now going to share that information with Parliament, the details of which are as follows: For 1996- 97 the underexpenditure rate was 43%; for 1997-98, it was 43,3%; and for 1998/99 it was 78,5%.

The huge underexpenditure in 1998-99 was attributed to the poverty relief fund. The Department of Welfare received R203 million in 1998-99 from the infrastructure and investment fund for the poverty relief programme. When the Department of Welfare appointed the Independent Development Trust as its investment agency, it transferred to it a sum of R81 million towards the end of the 1998-99 financial year. As the amount was paid from the suspense account for control purposes, it was not reflected as expenditure in 1998-99.

Furthermore, the Department of Welfare obtained approval from the Department of State Expenditure to roll over R202 950 million from the poverty relief allocation for the 1999-2000 financial year. The original allocation of R50 million for 1999-2000 was reduced to R40 million. The total amount of funds allocated for poverty relief in 1999-2000 was, therefore, R242 950 million.

The allocation for the poverty relief fund is divided as follows: For 1998- 99, an amount of R203 million funded 193 provincial projects amounting to R111 583 297 and 38 national projects costing R91 446 703. [Time expired.]

Ms O R KASIENYANE: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and hon members, the need for an effective social security system is increasingly important in South Africa, especially because of its impact on income levels in the poorest of poor households.

The gap between the rich and the very poor is becoming even wider. Our challenge is whether we can meet these expectations. I believe that we will only have met these expectations when the hunger of the poor has been stilled. The reality is that some of our people who receive welfare grants are not always convinced that their conditions have improved since 1994. We must therefore ensure that the improvements that we have legislated are translated into reality.

The department is currently responsible for the monthly payment of 11 different grants to approximately 2,8 million beneficiaries throughout South Africa. Seen together with other forms of social spending on health, education and developmental welfare services, this represents a very substantial portion of our Budget.

Pensioners countrywide have welcomed the R20 increase in pensions. However, we must acknowledge that this increase does not fully take the rate of inflation into account. We must also not underestimate the importance of this safety net for our people, as it is a reality that the pension paid to a grant beneficiary reaches the whole family and sustains whole communities.

We must therefore congratulate the ANC Government on its commitment not to cut down on this form of social spending, but to sustain it and even increase it. For example, through the child support grant, rural women feed between five and nine people. The broadening of the child support grant, is very important, because it confirms that ntima, mme o mphele ngwana [I can be denied food, but my child must be fed]. However, we must step up our efforts to reach more and more beneficiaries with this grant. The slow take- up rate of the child support grant is one example of a number of problems we are experiencing with the social security system.

It is unfortunate that the process of reviewing beneficiaries has caused so many problems. In many cases, those of our people who have been permanently disabled are removed from the system and can only be reinstated after a minimum of three months. This sends a wrong message to our people. The department needs to re-examine the policy on disability grants and ensure that the policy is properly implemented.

The process of reregistration of beneficiaries was a necessary part of the transformation of the welfare system. However, it caused some discomfort and anxiety to beneficiaries. We hope that this process will be completed by June this year. We have pointed out some of the problems; now we must look at what is being done to improve the situation. Out of the department’s budget of R520 million, R75 874 has been allocated to facilitate the development, implementation and monitoring of policies and strategies for a comprehensive social security system. We hope that this will ensure better lives for our people.

The department has launched training and capacity-building programmes for officials involved in pension payments as a lack of capacity - especially in those provinces forgotten by the apartheid past - has been the cause of many of the problems. Poorer provinces and the deep rural areas have been targeted for a roll out of fax and telephone lines to improve communication between beneficiaries, officials and the department.

To improve the take-up rate of the child support grant, a number of decisive steps have been taken. Among these are important mass communication strategies, relaxation of the regulations, additional funding and support to staff and the implementation of regional-specific project plans. It is important that the department streamlines its registration system, Socpen, nationally, because we still have people receiving social security grants from two provinces. Ba kgonwa ke ba ba dinaka. [They have it both ways.]

The department has tried to improve the conditions under which pensioners are paid, for example by outsourcing the pension payout to private companies. This has had a positive impact, but too often pensioners still have to wait for the whole day for their grants. They are exposed to harsh weather conditions, waiting in long queues without being under a roof. The department must ensure that the service levels agreed to with private companies are adhered to.

We must also establish a system of co-operation between public representatives and administrators. When we speak to our people in our constituencies they complain to us about the bad service they receive from the department, but when these problems are brought to the departmental officials they see us as interfering in or threatening their jobs.

The relationship must be improved, so that we can proudly say to our needy that somebody still cares, because fifing go tshwaranwa ka dikobo [when things get tough we must share what we have].

Finally, in support of the budget, let me say that we can meet these challenges. The department can do it, even though some detractors claim that this department is small and ill-equipped for these challenges. However, let me warn them: It is not the size of the dog that determines the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. Hon Van Jaarsveld is qualified to speak about failures, because his government failed for 48 years to rule this country. [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, the budget debate on welfare reminds me of a song that goes: ``There are more questions than answers.’’

I am tempted to give my enquiring mind some flight and suggest that the circumstances surrounding the problems in the Department of Welfare are strewn with questionable intentions. The picture painted after the performance of the department over the past few years ought to confound the collective moral mind of the alliance Government. It has been established that 15,6% of the 1994-95 allocation of the department’s budget of R85 million has not been spent. In the three years subsequent to that, the figures climbed to 24,2%, 43,9% and 43,3% respectively. Over the 1998-99 period, 78,5% of the department’s total budget of R450 million had not been spent. In fact, as the Auditor-General’s report makes mention, less than 1% of the R204 million earmarked for poverty relief was spent in that year.

It is generally accepted that Government’s policy is to uplift the previously disadvantaged communities. These are the moral obligations that all members of the Government purportedly support. The poor, as the Minister says, are the most vulnerable, and the HIV crisis in South Africa does exacerbate poverty. The Government must ensure that the funds budgeted for poverty relief gets into the hands of those proven to have made good use of it by helping and empowering those who most need it. The critical factor may lie on what processes to follow for Government to achieve its objectives, and perhaps there are those who may simply not fancy the road that it has taken. In fact, I dare to state that there may be very many who may be out of gear with the intentions of Government!

A more probable explanation though, that is generally accepted, are the irregularities attached to the way in which the department administered its programmes. Blame must also be laid at the door of the State Expenditure department for a shoddy job in not detecting the incapacity of the Welfare department to dispense of its funds, but continuing annually to approve additional appropriations for Welfare. What needs to be done? Parliament must make a special ruling to call to account the former Minister for Welfare and Population Development for her role in allowing the mess that the department is in at this moment.

Furthermore, Government must dismiss all top Welfare officials for the part they played regarding the crisis over the unspent millions earmarked for poverty relief. If Government finds it difficult to keep adequate check on its employees, it must outsource the monitoring and evaluating functions to a body equipped to do so. May I add that it is the ANC which is in Government and not the New NP, so could the ANC please take responsibility? [Interjections.]

Dr E E JASSAT: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, hon members, this afternoon I would like to focus on Aids orphans in Africa in general, and in South Africa in particular. The cumulative number of Aids orphans in the world is estimated at 8,2 million. About 90% of these orphans live in sub-Saharan Africa, which, incidentally is home to only one tenth of the world’s population. Within South Africa alone it is estimated that there will be 3 million orphans within the next 10 years.

The most likely impact before the death of a parent is on schooling, as children may have to work to supplement the household income or stay at home to care for sick adults or younger siblings. As income may fluctuate, household expenditure is likely to be reduced. Poor families who have little or no assets may reduce food consumption, with the nutritional status of the sick and children being seriously compromised. Psychosocial distress begins with a parent’s illness, and they are left emotionally and physically vulnerable after the death of the parent or parents. Family structures and role changes within families will change due to the Aids epidemic. Children may be fostered or adopted. These orphans could be taken care of by grandparents, aunts, uncles or their siblings.

In supporting Vote No 35, we would like to commend the mission of the national population unit of the Department of Welfare, which is to provide an expert service that facilitates and supports the implementation of population and development strategies aimed at sustainable human development of the quality of life of all South Africans. In April 1998 the White Paper on Population Policy was tabled in this House, reflecting the interests, hopes and aspirations of all our people, especially those who remain disadvantaged because of past policies and practices. However, with the emergence of HIV/Aids with its insidious and devastating effect on the socioeconomic fabric of our country, expectations of population development and a better life for all our people are dangerously threatened.

By the beginning of 1998, over 30 million people worldwide were infected with HIV, and 11,7 million people around the globe have already lost their lives to this pandemic. Over two-thirds of all the people in the world now living with HIV, nearly 21 million men, women and children, are in sub- Saharan Africa and 83% of the world’s Aids deaths have occurred in this region. An estimated 87% of the world’s children infected with HIV are in Africa.

More and more child-headed households will arise. Young people under the age of 18 will be caring for their younger brothers, sisters, cousins, nephews and nieces. All the children will leave school in order to work to supplement the household income. This situation already exists in KwaZulu- Natal. It is quite often associated with the increase of movement of children onto the streets of the cities or into commercial sex work.

Child-headed households will increase child labour. Unless families and communities are strengthened and provisions made for adequate resources and support structures, the number of children orphaned as a result of Aids will place an unimaginable strain on extended families, and an overwhelming pressure on the Department of Welfare, not forgetting the community.

What stares us in the face in South Africa is increasing numbers of children in distress associated with the escalating Aids epidemic, the inability of traditional models of surrogate support or care to accommodate the number of children in difficulty, the inability of poor communities to absorb these children in distress into informal care facilities without the introduction of outside support, the stigma associated with HIV/Aids- infected and affected families and the pressing need to develop intervention strategies to ensure that the rights of children who are infected or affected by HIV/Aids are protected. To meet the above challenges, firstly, we need to transform the care system to ensure efficiency, effectiveness and appropriateness. Secondly, we have to identify families and community strengths and build upon them to maximise the potential to care for the vulnerable children. The department has already undertaken research in order to inform policy and the development of programmes. The Women in Partnership against HIV/Aids was launched on 8 March 1999. A national strategic framework for children infected and affected by HIV/Aids was approved by Cabinet at its meeting on 25 November last year. The SA National Aids Council, under the chairmanship of the Deputy President, has taken off.

We, in Parliament, have a moral duty to come up immediately with innovative, affordable and sustainable plans to contain this horrendous threat and disaster that we as a people face. I would like to end by thanking both our President and Deputy President for the very active support and leadership in this life-and-death fight against HIV/Aids that they have given to our people and to this country. [Applause.]

Mr A SINGH: Chairperson, it is rather unfortunate that the present Minister for Welfare and Population Development, Minister Zola Skweyiya, is now responsible for the unspent funds from the 1999-2000 budget, an amount of R2,003 billion of unspent roll-over funds. It now his responsibility to take the unpleasant publicity that he got for it, but the Welfare budget is the responsibility of this Government and its previous Minister who, in this case, is also an ANC member.

The Minister has a very important responsibility for unspent funds. The previous Minister, Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, should do the honourable thing and resign from this Parliament. [Interjections.] She has created a problem in the Welfare portfolio and is responsible for R516 million of unspent funds over the past three years - R52 million in the 1996-97 financial year, R110 million in 1997-98 and R353 million in 1998-99. It is like adding fuel to the fire by saying that there is a further R203 million of unspent funds in the 1999-2000 financial year.

This is a disgraceful situation in which a Minister and a Government that claim to care for the poor are really not caring. Maybe a code of conduct for MPs and Cabinet Ministers could censure Ministers who do not perform their duties responsibly. Have we forgotten the election slogan of the ANC, ``A better life for all’’?

On 23 February, the Minister announced, in the Budget, a R20 increase in the grants to pensioners, the disabled and other grantees. A 3,4% increase in these difficult times is really a drop in the ocean. To make matters worse, on 4 April, before the pensioners could even get their increase, there was a fuel price increase. It dug deeper into their pockets. Some pensioners and disabled persons have to pay more than R20 to travel in taxis and buses to collect their pensions.

Our pensioners of this country have built us a strong foundation, and today we are able to reap the benefits of the land. They have toiled in order for us to have a better life. I call on the Minister to rethink the 3,4% increase. A more substantial amount is deemed necessary, and I call for an increase in pension grants and grants for the disabled.

The DP leadership has gone on a sizokubona'' tour - a look-and-see tour - of this country and found many families and institutions having to make ends meet without any Government assistance and subsidies. I would like to quote a heading from the Cape Argus of 16 March 2000, which read:Grant cut leaves poor families facing destitution.’’ The subheading read: ``Mother of five Sandra survives on maintenance grants for kids - but she will get nothing under the new system.’’

It is sad that this is the direction in which this Government is moving, with families left hungry whilst our Ministers hoard millions of rands of poverty relief funds. Let us give hope to our pensioners and disabled people who are collecting grants. Let them not be forgotten. According to a prediction of the figures released by the Minister, only 1 million children under the age of seven will be reached by the year 2003 by the child support grant. This is two million short of the Government’s target figure. The Minister needs to seriously consider whether the child support grants are really working for the people they are intended for.

Only children under seven get this kind of child support grant. What about the whole schooling life of a child until the age of 18? Where do they get their support? The child support grant programme has not been accepted by the larger community. Only 30 000 recipients registered, whilst the department has budgeted for 370 000 recipients. This is over 12 times fewer than estimated. [Time expired.]

Ms X C MAKASI: Chairperson, Deputy President, hon Minister, hon members, South Africa has a rich institutional framework of NGOs, such as voluntary welfare organisations, religious organisations and community-based organisations that participate in the delivery of welfare services. They have a long history of struggle and they made an undeniable contribution to the political transformation of this country. There is no doubt that they are an extremely valuable partner in the Government’s effort to provide people with a better life. They have always been close to the people and because of that, they are often in the best position to deliver effective services.

Now that the struggle of political liberation is over, for some of these organisations a new struggle has just begun because of the increasingly difficult financial position the NGO sector experiences. How has the Government responded to problems these NGOs have? As a responsible partner, Government has tried to create an enabling environment for the optional use of capacity and expertise which NGOs command. The introduction of the Nonprofit Organisations Act, No 71 of 1997, allows for voluntary registration of nonprofit organisations. It is encouraging that there are 5 871 organisations currently registered in terms of this Act.

The ANC Government has made an enormous effort to try to redress the imbalances of the past by way of increasing social spending. A considerable portion of the budget is now allocated to various programmes in the developmental welfare service sector. A total of R20 million, of which R8 million is for economic empowerment, has been allocated to people with disabilities. A further R6 million has been allocated to a clean-and-green job creation programme for integrated waste management, in partnership with the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. A total of R3 million has been allocated to a project called Ex-offenders, which is a joint project in partnership with the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, and 500 ex-offenders are employed through this initiative. The implementation of these programmes has been possible through the contribution of organisations from civil society.

Just under 10% of the Welfare budget is available for spending on developmental social services. It is, therefore, crucial that the money is targeted at those programmes and organisations where the best possible service can be delivered within the constraints of the budget. NGOs have responsibilities in the partnership. Government cannot provide all the funding for the services they provide as the traditional funders of NGOs become less eager to continue channelling money to them. New and innovative ways of fundraising must be found. NGOs must also be seen to be accountable to the communities they serve. Registration in terms of the Nonprofit Organisations Act can assist NGOs and the public to establish some criteria, enhancing the legitimacy and credibility of the people handling public money.

In our partnership with NGOs we must ensure that the limited resources reach the proper targets. This can be improved if they assist communities in doing careful and appropriate community profiles and needs assessments. In building and strengthening the partnership, the portfolio committee of Parliament also has an important role to play. NGOs often develop alternatives, from their view, and policy on how things should be done, and they bring expert opinion into the debate. Here we must note that a continual stronger relationship is being built between the Portfolio Committee on Welfare and Population Development and role-players in the welfare delivery system. The relationship must be built even further, as a dynamic relationship would mean that we have an ear on the ground where it matters most.

The ANC has always stressed the need to ensure that our policies are informed by concrete conditions on the ground. The ANC approach to the integrated social security system means that the focus is on the complete and integrated development of the human potential of each individual. This also means that we want to integrate fully the capacity and skills of organisations of civil society. We must engender the relationship of trust and openness, as this will facilitate optimal use of our limited resources.

I support today’s Vote, because I am convinced that it will go a long way in addressing what is close to my heart: a better life for all. We believe that Welfare will deliver. As we confront the challenges of poverty, we call on all South Africans to support the effort of Government to meet people’s basic needs. I can proudly say: We are on course. [Applause.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson and hon Deputy President, I want to start with a quote from someone who most of us in this House hold in high esteem, Archbishop Ndungane, who said: ``Words, words, words, do not feed the poor.’’

We have seen more than our fair share of summits, conferences and empty debates about poverty and the suffering of the poor masses of this country. All we need is delivery. The poor are not asking for hand-outs; they are asking for access to resources and skills.

We have witnessed how bureaucracy is stifling and, at the same time, eroding the resources originally designated for the poor, especially the pensioners. Let us take a few examples. Old age pensions increased from R410 per month from the 1995-96 financial year to R520 per month for the 1999-2000 financial year, which translates into an overall increase of approximately 26,8%. Sacob economists, however, have calculated that based on core inflation rates over the past five years, old age pensions are effectively 11,5% lower than five years ago, simply because inflation generally excludes interest rate fluctuations. Pensions for the elderly increased by R20 per month from R520 to R540 per month. If the pension kept up with inflation, then it should have been R560 per month. Two million people in this country receive social pensions, and keeping up with inflation would cost Government approximately R40 million. Yet, this Government allows tax cuts of R9 billion. Not only is this unfair, but it is also devastating to a family of five who try to live on a pension.

The change in individual income tax means that there will be R9 billion less in Government’s Budget. This money could have been used for the basic income grant programme that is calculated at R7 billion. Instead, the tax cut actually goes to the wealthy, because they purchase capital goods and imports that do not create local jobs. A basic income grant would put money into the hands of those living at the marginal standard and who buy locally produced goods that, in turn, create jobs.

Expenditure for pensions in the current Budget decreased in real terms by 1,5%, whilst Defence spending increased in real terms by 19%. We have to ask ourselves the question: Why? The biggest threat to our democracy is not foreign invasion, but the poor. The only explanation for this is the failure of Government to look at their Gear policy, which has not met any of its targets since its inception. [Applause.]

Mr M T MASUTHA: Chairperson, allow me, on behalf of this House and the nation at large, to convey our most sincere gratitude to the large numbers of our people, especially women, who relentlessly continue to make a vital contribution to mending the lives of many of our children by providing them with care and support in the form of adoption, foster care and acting as their care-givers. [Applause.]

No amount of budgetary allocations can make a dent in the challenge of reconstructing our families and communities out of the rubble left by the social breakdown caused by poverty, disease, joblessness and violent crime. Our country is one of the few developing nations of the world that continues to invest heavily in social spending, a significant percentage of which goes towards child-related programmes. In this budget, an amount of nearly R21 billion - constituting about 9% of the total national Budget, and about 2,5% of GDP - is to be invested in social welfare services, including social security. This confirms our Government’s commitment towards the poor.

In my previous input in a debate on this budget, I reflected on the international and constitutional obligations regarding our children to which we as a nation have committed ourselves, and some of the budgetary allocations aimed at supporting our efforts towards the fulfilment of this obligation. On this occasion, allow me to reflect on some of the efforts that we as a nation have undertaken to improve our institutional framework for the realisation of this goal, and areas that need further development, especially the area of legislation.

The Child Care Act of 1983 and the Social Assistance Act of 1992 present themselves as the key pieces of legislation in the field of welfare that profoundly impacts on the lives of children in this country, in that they regulate the provision of services, care and support, particularly for children in especially difficult circumstances, such as abandoned and abused children and those living on the streets in abject poverty. These laws, however, were by and large based on the old welfare paradigm that did not reflect the value systems of the different sectors of our society. In particular, they were framed with the object of an apartheid state in mind, namely of promoting white interests, completely disregarding the needs and aspirations of the majority of our people.

Following the establishment of a democratic state in 1994, one of the immediate challenges was to transform, amongst other things, the legislation that defined the nature, content and primary beneficiaries of services, so as to achieve equity, promote equality and enhance social justice. In pursuit of this new goal and pending the introduction of comprehensive new legislation, urgent measures were introduced in the interim in the fields of childcare and social security in the last Parliament.

These measures include the passing and implementation of various amendments to these laws, the first of which was the Child Care Amendment Act of 1996 which, amongst the more important changes that it introduced, was the substitution of a parent-centred approach with a child-centred approach in dealing with children in need of care. This new approach was aimed at empowering families through reconstruction services and other forms of intervention to enable them to fulfil their responsibilities towards children, rather than punish them for being ``unfit or unable’’ to look after their children, as was the approach in the past, and removing their children from them.

The Welfare Laws Amendment Act of 1997 provided for the abolition and phasing out of the previous maintenance grant and the substitution thereof with the current child support grant. Although the maintenance grant covered children up to the age of 18 years - as opposed to the child support grant, which at this point in time is only limited to children under the age of seven years - it was only available to single mothers who could not afford to care for their children, and limited to two children per beneficiary of the grant. The child-support grant, on the other hand, recognises the fact that many young children are cared for by other care- givers, such as grandparents and other members of the extended family, and covers all children. Provision is made in the legislation for the maximum amount of the grant payable and the maximum age to increase as and when it becomes sustainable to do so. It must be acknowledged, however, that the age limit and the fairly limited amount payable are both factors which will continue to impact negatively on the social security system for children as a whole, hence the need to review the situation when the new comprehensive social security system is developed.

In 1998, following a Constitutional Court ruling, Parliament passed the Adoption Matters Amendment Act of 1998, in terms of which - for the first time in our history and in line with our Bill of Rights - responsible natural fathers, excluding rapists, can now exercise their right to have a say on the proposed adoption of their children born out of wedlock. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, Deputy President, Ministers and hon members, enabling the individual, empowering the communities and facilitating development must be the key objects of the Welfare department.

The social Welfare department, political parties, the community, development institutions and especially local government - that is, the councillors, who have intimate contact with the people at grass-roots level

• must strategise and co-ordinate a partnership to be actively involved in assisting communities to establish and create their own future. The aim must be to transform the status quo towards what they desire personally, without becoming totally dependent on the Government and empowering themselves independently with survival skills. In order to sustain human development through the provision of welfare services, disparities existing in the communication and administration procedures must be sorted out first.

Poverty in South Africa is not a joke. It is our harsh reality and is destroying the livelihood of our people. Policies, legislation and budget allocations to mobilise human development are well and good, but superior to policy development is action. We must learn to practise what we preach. Budget allocations to poverty relief programmes must be sanctioned after an investigation to avoid the excuse that unforeseen problems were suddenly detected in the programmes. This delays the distribution of resources in the country, which is to the greatest disadvantage of the poor.

The trial-and-error period in the new democratic South Africa is over. Our sacred duty is to focus on delivering the goods and providing services to our people, which, to a certain degree, the Department of Welfare has achieved. The evidence is in the numerous poverty relief programmes that have been implemented to uplift the poorest of the poor, for which we thank the Welfare department. To improve efficiency and eliminate fraud, the social security delivery system has been re-engineered. However, due to clumsy administration by personnel, on re-registration many guarantees and pensioners who have met the legitimate criteria have either received their social security only after a long waiting period, while there are others who, after six months, have not yet received their grants or pensions.

For many, the social security is their only source of income. They depend on it to survive, and being cut off from their financial resource means that they are destitute. The fact that most victims are not empowered with the necessary literacy skills to investigate the delay in the social security grant, has worsened their plight, leaving them totally helpless. To eliminate this problem, expert community development trainers must be appointed to educate the social security beneficiaries and the personnel in the department. We must meet the challenges of a crucial era in South Africa, where skills and education are prerequisites for success and development.

According to the Social Assistance Act of 1992 male beneficiaries of state pension must be 65 years of age. This the MF disputes. Medical research proves that the average life span of a South African citizen is 75 years - I hope members live longer. The MF advocates that, irrespective of gender, on reaching the age of 60, the individual concerned must qualify for a pension. This will also make room for younger people to get employment. The principle of equality in the Constitution must complement the distribution of resources. Social welfare policies must be engineered to suit the life span, lifestyle and economic needs of the poor.

The aim of implementing the child support grant is to reach 3 million children under the age of seven in poor households by the year 2003. In principle, the MF accepts the child support grant. However, what the MF does not agree to is the limitation applied in respect of the age of seven years. We, therefore, request the Government to relook at the limitation of age. Unemployment, malnutrition and nonmaintenance of children by legal or biological parents are adverse elements which are fragmenting the family system, and thus that of children, who are the fabric of our society.

If the above negative social factors persist in an individual’s life from birth until that individual is deemed legally capable of fending for himself or herself independently, the state, being the supreme guardian, is automatically ordained with the responsibility to financially aid the child so that his or her basic psychological needs are met. In other words, the MF is calling on the Government to allocate the child support grant to deserving individuals until their school-going years have been completed.

If the child support grant is not increased to a reasonable amount over the years and is limited to the age of seven, this will, unfortunately, intensify the social decay amongst our youth, such as care-givers abandoning their children, a high percentage of school dropouts, gang formation and an increase in crime, unemployment, drug and alcohol abuse. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M A MANGENA: Mr Chairperson, the Department of Welfare is the tool of our society to look after the weak in its midst. It is a vehicle through which the old, the infirm, the disabled and the poor are assisted by society. More often than not, the Department of Welfare literally stands between death by starvation and life for a whole family. It stands between the stunted growth of children, kwashiorkor and poor mental growth due to malnutrition on the one hand, and the survival of our children on the other.

The Department of Welfare does help many, but it fails many others. In theory, it ought not to fail so many. The constitutional arrangements, legal arrangements and financial provisions are not so bad, but there seems to be a lot wrong with some people working in the Welfare department. It seems there are many people in the department who are sloppy, do not care and are lacking diligence.

One has seen a few letters written by functionaries in the Welfare department to some old people, informing them that their pensions have been stopped and will not be reinstated unless and until they produce their own death certificates. One has seen other letters sent to people who are more than 80 years old, asking them to produce letters from doctors indicating if they still qualify for a pension. What kind of logic is that? One would have thought that one needs one’s pension even more as one gets older. The only way to explain these absurd but shocking happenings is to accept that there are people in that department who just pull out the pre-printed letters and mark any box without applying their minds. In the process they are causing a lot of pain, embarrassment, suffering and anguish to our senior citizens.

Children under seven years of parents whose monthly income is below a certain sum are entitled to a child support grant from the Welfare department. There is a clear legal provision for it. Yet mothers of such children often have a hard time accessing the grants. Many a mother out there would throw up her hands in despair because the magistrates’ courts that are supposed to help her get maintenance from the father of her children are not doing their job.

That, of course, is not exactly a matter for the Welfare department. It is a matter for the Justice department, except that the failure to get maintenance forces the mother to seek help from the Welfare department. And if the Welfare department is not responsive, as is often the case, all sorts of possibilities open up - child malnutrition, prostitution, street children, substance abuse and so forth. We would also like to know why, six years after the end of apartheid, Africans are the only people who must still queue for their pensions at the paypoints? If other racial components of our population get their pensions in a dignified and humane way, why is it that the same methods are not used for the Africans?

Considering the fact that the Constitution outlaws discrimination on the basis of gender or sex and the recently passed Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act does the same; that older men are hit very hard by joblessness in this era of high unemployment; and also bearing in mind the fact that, in general, men die younger than women, why is it that women qualify for old age pension at the age of 60 while men have to wait until they are 65 years? Is it any wonder then that there are more women than men in pension queues? When is the discrimination against men on the basis of their sex going to end? [Interjections.]

The legal framework and finances to deliver a social welfare service exists. The problems revolve around lack of diligence, application, compassion, efficiency and care on the part of officials in the Welfare department. Perhaps the Welfare department should do something drastic about those of its officials whose hearts are made of stone. [Applause.]

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Mr Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers, fellow members, the Minister for Welfare and Population Development, through his detailed speech, has managed to set the record straight about misgivings on a number of issues in the Welfare department, particularly on the issue of the poverty relief fund. The ANC prides itself on looking after its people in South Africa, with emphasis on the poor.

Today all members serving in the portfolio committee have been surprised by the attitude of Mrs Cupido. Mrs Cupido actually says nothing in the meetings. In fact, the utterances she made recently to the media … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Are you rising on a point of order, hon member?

Mrs P W CUPIDO: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: I only quoted from the director-general’s report. [Interjections.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That is not a point of order. Continue, hon member.

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Chairperson, the hon Mrs Cupido has surprised most of us in the committee today. She hardly says anything in the committee meetings. In fact, the utterances she made to the media recently - and again in her speech earlier today - are clearly not her views, but those of her masters. The ignorance she displayed during the briefing by the IDT last Friday, was seriously embarrassing. Today she misrepresented the IDT. The IDT did not actually say the projects she was speaking about never existed. They said those projects did exist, but did not meet the criteria. [Laughter.]

At that meeting she demanded a document from the IDT officials, not even realising that the same document she was reading was the one she was asking for from the IDT. [Laughter.] In fact, her history in the welfare committee over the past five years leaves much to be desired. I doubt whether the DP applied their minds when they grabbed her to join them. [Interjections.] I know that she joined the DP because her husband did not make it onto the New NP list. [Laughter.] Thereafter she had to join the shorter queue of the DP. She was harassed by the New NP. She continues to say that the ANC will not stop struggling as long as our people are discriminated against by sex, race and class. Who is discriminated against? Who was discriminated against? Was the DP ever discriminated against?

HON MEMBERS: No!

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Mr Chairperson, who is she referring to? Or is she just singing a song! [Laughter.] Recently, the DP reinforced Mrs Cupido in the committee with the hon Mr Singh, who is just as hopeless in that committee. [Laughter.] They both discovered that they cannot reduce this hard-working committee to petty politics and DP media propaganda. Mrs Cupido mentioned that a state of emergency should be introduced within the department. What did she do when Abe Williams was in the New NP and was actually embezzling the funds? [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The hon Mrs Cupido should be ashamed of herself. For instance, the Barrydale brick-making project in this province of hers, through the poverty eradication programme, has transformed two people operating a small, manual machine producing only 200 bricks per day to a major local development. From the funds allocated to these people, they bought two modern brick-making machines and are employing 37 people with 150 members benefiting directly from this project. This brickmaking is now linked to a local development which is responsible for building 140 low-cost houses, 30 houses for farm workers and 95 water-borne toilets.

I just want to quote Mr Van Jaarsveld. He said: ``You failed! You failed! You failed!’’ His voice echoes the excitement about the failure, which would not have been if the present Government had not started from no foundation at all. This department is still in a process of rectifying the mess made by his party in the past. [Applause.]

The only concern the hon member has on the child support grant is age. The hon member must remember that the previous state maintenance grant, under the NP rule, reached only 300 000 by 1996, and only the Western Cape children were benefiting. Contrary to that, the child support grant, in only three years, had already reached 273 000 beneficiaries nationally, by February 2000.

During the briefings by the Department of Welfare, it was clear that there were good policies, good plans and good intentions, but we do agree that shortcomings exist. Corrective measures have to be introduced. We call upon the Minister, through his political leadership, to speed up the capacity- building of personnel in the department. And I believe the Minister has already begun to do that. I am not going to mention what he has done, because he actually, in a detailed manner, was able to do that.

Concerning Mrs Southgate’s utterances on unspent money, I think, they were actually malicious. The only thing that I can say to her is that she does not listen. Facts have been given here about that unspent money, and because she had prepared that speech, she continued to talk about unspent money when that was actually explained. [Laughter.]

To the hon Patricia de Lille, whom we have never seen in the committee, I do not know where she gets her facts from. [Laughter.] I am appealing to the member to attend the meetings in order to see what has been discussed if she is interested in welfare. It is not a matter of just coming to make statements here without actually participating in the committee. [Laughter.]

We are positive that we are going to overcome these teething problems. Today, as the ANC Government, we have managed to get where we are through the support of the people. The people vote for us because we are working for the people and we are interested in the poor.

I want to say to the IDT that this department should make use of the IDT because we commend the good work that they have done, and we think that they can be used effectively in order for the department to pay more attention to welfare work and concentrate on other areas which are more important. As the ANC, we support the budget. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson, I think most of the issues that I wanted to raise have been answered by most of the members here. So, I will not continue to bore this House by answering some of the questions that were uncalled for, simply because some members, specifically from the opposition side, are not prepared to listen or to participate in the work of the portfolio committee. [Interjections.]

It is actually as the hon Ms Ramotsamai has just said. In all that has been happening in the portfolio committee, there has been very little contribution from the DP as a whole. [Interjections.] Yes, I do. I listen and I come up to it. So the issue that arises is: If they cannot contribute on that platform, why do they come and use this one? What contribution are they making to alleviating the plight of the poor in this country? It is simply because, Mrs Stupido wanted to make use of the television more than anything else. [Laughter.] Is it Stupido? Is she Mrs Stupido or what? [Laughter.] I am sorry about the name. But I think, in future, she should make use of the information that is made available to the portfolio committee. And I think it has been made available many times. The IDT had to come here and spend three whole hours explaining each and every penny that has been spent and that is still to be spent. Unfortunately, Mrs Cupido was not prepared to listen to that. I do not know whether I should continue to answer her questions.

HON MEMBERS: No!

The MINISTER: I do not think so. [Laughter.] I really do not think so, because all those questions have been answered here by all the members who spoke in this House. I think I would really appeal to the DP, when it recruits members from other parties, to always try to recruit the best … [Laughter] [Applause] … and not people who are about to be thrown away. And the representatives of the DP in this debate have not been very exemplary at all. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, let us give the Minister time to reply. You have had your chance.

The MINISTER: Mr Chairperson, I think they have not been exemplary at all. I think what Ms Ramotsamai has just said is quite clear. They do not participate in the portfolio committee at all. They keep quiet and then somebody from the DP writes speeches for them, and they come and shout here. Really, we cannot allow such a situation. That member is also paid, just like me and others. In principle, she should do her work, and should listen. [Interjections.]

She is only using outdated information. She did not listen to what Ms Lulu Gwagwa said to the portfolio committee last week. [Interjections.] I have all the information. I do not think I should continue, but I think that she has been answered by Ms Ramotsamai and Mr Mike Masutha, on almost all the issues that have been raised here. Mrs P W CUPIDO: You lied to the … [Interjections.]

The MINISTER: I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the other members of the portfolio committee for their contribution to this debate. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member Mrs Cupido, I heard you saying that the Minister lied. Could you withdraw that word, please. [Interjections.]

Mrs P W CUPIDO: Mr Chair, I really quoted from the Auditor-General’s report … [Interjections] … and from the IDI’s report, and I can prove that to you. It will be incorrect if I withdraw. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Mrs Cupido, I heard you clearly saying that the Minister lied to the … [Interjections.]

Mrs P W CUPIDO: But the Minister also indicated that I lied.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Mrs Cupido, I am ruling. Could you please withdraw. Mrs P W CUPIDO: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER: I think I will appeal to hon Stupido and to …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Minister, the correct surname of the member is Mrs Cupido. [Laughter.]   The MINISTER: Oh, Mrs Cupido! [Laughter.] I think I would like to thank all the members who participated in this debate … [Interjections.]

Ms J A SEMPLE: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: You have already pointed out the probability of the Minister referring to the hon member as Stupido. Could he please withdraw? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I have corrected the Minister and asked him to pronounce the surname correctly, and he is definitely doing that. That is not a point of order. Continue, hon Minister.

The MINISTER: Chairperson, I think I would advise the hon members of the DP to read my speech and that of all the other members who have spoken, more importantly that of the hom Mike Masutha, Ramotsamai and all the other members who have spoken today. I think they have clearly answered all the questions that have been raised. And if they are not satisfied, I am always available for them to answer whatever questions they might have.

In so far as people like Mrs Southgate are concerned, I think those questions have also been answered. And I am very surprised, being a member of the ACDP, that she has not been able to acknowledge the role that has been played by the churches in the field of social welfare in general. [Interjections.] Honestly, she should, at least, have said that the churches and the faith-based organisations are playing a role, and I think she should acknowledge that beyond any reasonable doubt.

I think we should trust one another in this debate. It should be based on trust and openness, not on using this platform for party-political purposes as such. We have to work together. It is quite obvious that Government alone cannot work and network with the rest of society in general. We need the participation of NGOs, the faith-based organisations and the private sector in order to cure some of the ills of our society. I think when we in the ANC say ``A better life for all’’, we mean the participation of each and every individual and the participation of each and every organisation in making that life better for all our people.

I would like to agree with the way in which Dr Jassat contributed in this debate in so far as clearing up the minds of our people generally - and that of the members themselves - with regard to Aids. And I want to thank all the other members, eg the hon Saloojee, the hon Mrs Mars, the hon B Mbulawa, the hon Mrs Tshivhase, the hon Prof Mbadi, the hon Ms Kasienyane, the hon M Masutha, the hon X Makasi, the hon Miss Rajbally and the hon Mr Mangena.

I think the hon Mr Mangena is right: we need - in fact the department is going through - an audit of all the facilities and infrastructure that is available for social welfare in this country. We are not satisfied with that infrastructure, and we will work towards ensuring that it is improved as much as possible.

The issues that have been raised are quite clearly issues that we will keep. On the question of the appointment of a chief financial officer, I think I said - if the member had listened very carefully - that it was in the process of being done, as agreed. There is a process that is going on through which we are working towards filling the post. With regard to the gaps in social assistance which hon Mrs Mars raised, we acknowledge that, and I think we should work together to ensure that that gap is filled as soon as possible.

On the question of the child support grant, of course, I said that in general the increase had been more than 1000% in one year as such, and will continue to rise. The ANC Deputy Chief Whip has told me that each and every ANC member of this House is expected to register at least 100 children every month for the child support grant. [Interjections.] I am sure the IFP and all the other parties will do the same, as a minimum number. I am not sure if the DP will do it, simply because they do not represent the poorest of the poor at all. [Interjections.]

I am pleased that the members of this House share my concerns about the capacity of the department. As I have indicated in my speech, one of the corrective measures I have taken is to have a comprehensive review and skills audit done of the department. This review has just been completed and we are studying the recommendations. The vacant posts will be filled as a matter of priority and training will be intensified.

From the responses of the hon members, it is clear that our initiatives are making a difference. To create conditions that are enabling and to extend these, we must be mindful that we need the full and active participation of all members of communities, the private sector and Government to achieve the goals of social development. That development is no development if it is voiceless, if it does not have the participation of the poorest of the poor, if it is rootless, and if it does not take into account our history.

Business suspended at 17:01 and resumed at 17:03.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, we now resume the debate, but before we do so, can I advise the members that when you are given a glass of water to drink, do not let the sound system drink it. You are thirsty, not the system. [Laughter.] The MINISTER: Chairperson, I was trying to say that we need to work together as much as possible to ensure that our efforts bear fruit, specifically for the poorest of the poor in this country. I think the partnership and co-operation that we are building - specifically with civil society through faith-based organisations and, more importantly, nongovernmental organisations and the private sector - should be strengthened as much as possible. We appeal to all members to participate in that process to ensure that the lives of our people are improved as much as possible.

We are aware of the shortage of resources. I think we should accept that the resources are not enough - everybody knows that - but we should also not play party-political games over that. We should ensure that our people receive whatever is possible, and that the efforts that the department is making should take into consideration hon members’ support, so that we can work together as much as possible. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 17:05. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                        MONDAY, 17 APRIL 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister in the Office of the President on 7 April 2000
     submitted a draft of the The National Youth Commission Amendment
     Bill, 2000, and a memorandum explaining the objects of the
     proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms
     of Joint Rule 159.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Standing Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on a Petition, dated 12 April 2000:

 The Standing Committee on Private Members' Legislative Proposals and
 Special Petitions, having considered the Special Petition of Ms H E
 Liebenberg, referred to it, reports as follows:


 1.     Ms Liebenberg's husband, who was in the employ of the then South
     African Railways and Harbours Administration for more than 40
     years, passed away in 1996.

 2.     She and her husband were both classified as "coloured" in terms
     of the Population Registration Act, 1950.


 3.     Her husband was a member of a pension fund for "non-whites",
     which did not provide benefits for surviving spouses.

 4.     Accordingly, no legislative authority exists whereby she can
     receive a widow's pension.

 5.     The Committee approached the Ministry of Public Enterprises who,
     through the Transnet Pension Fund, reported that the management of
     that fund identified the rule excluding dependants of black
     pensioners who retired before 1 April 1986 to be an anomaly and
     obtained approval from the Pension Fund's Board of Trustees on 25
     May 1999 to amend the rule in question.

 6.     The proposed amendment also provides that all current widows
     must be approached so that they can register a claim with the fund
     within a period of 12 months.

 7.     Should the amendment to the Transnet Pension Fund rules be
     approved, Ms Liebenberg could qualify to receive a gratuity as
     compensation for loss of income.

 8.     However, the amendment to the Transnet Pension Fund rules must,
     in terms of the Transnet Pension Fund Act, 1990, be approved by
     the Board of Trustees, the Managing Director of Transnet and the
     Minister of Public Enterprises, with the concurrence of the
     Minister of Finance.

 9.     The Committee therefore recommends that Ms Liebenberg be advised
     to approach the Fund and provide it with documentary evidence to
     substantiate her relationship with her deceased husband, so that
     her claim can be settled once the amendment to the rules has been
     effected.


 Report to be considered.

                       TUESDAY, 18 APRIL 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
 Independent Development Trust (Main Fund) for 1997-98 [RP 182-99]. 2.    The Minister of Finance:


 (1)    Rider Number one to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Parliamentary Support Programme, to be
       tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (2)    Rider Number one to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Policing in the Eastern Cape, to be tabled
       in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (3)    Rider Number One to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Technical Support to the South African
       Department of Education, to be tabled in terms of section 231(3)
       of the Constitution, 1996.


 (4)    Rider Number One to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Public Service Management Development, to
       be tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (5)    Rider Number One to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to
       be tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (6)    Rider Number One to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning the Cato Manor Development Programme, to be
       tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (7)    Rider Number One to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Private Sector Development Programme, to be
       tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (8)    Rider Number One to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning FISCU, to be tabled in terms of section
       231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (9)    Rider Number Three to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning District Health System, to be tabled in
       terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (10)   Rider Number Three to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Health Technical Support, to be tabled in
       terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (11)   Rider Number Two to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Non-Grid Electrification of Rural Schools,
       to be tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
       1996.


 (12)   Rider Number Two to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Technical Assistance Consultancy Support,
       to be tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
       1996.


 (13)   Rider Number Three to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning HIV/AIDS Programme, to be tabled in terms
       of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (14)   Rider Number Four to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning District Health System, to be tabled in
       terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (15)   Rider Number Four to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Health Technical Support, to be tabled in
       terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (16)   Rider Number One to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Public Health Sectoral Support Programme,
       to be tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
       1996.


 (17)   Rider Number Two to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning SADC Finance and Investment Research
       Programme, to be tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
       Constitution, 1996.


 (18)   Rider Number Two to the Financing Agreement between the
       Government of the Republic of South Africa and the European
       Community concerning Private Sector Development Programme: Small
       and Micro Enterprises, to be tabled in terms of section 231(3)
       of the Constitution, 1996.


 (19)   Financing Agreement between the Government of the Republic of
       South Africa and the European Community concerning Sector
       Support for Community Water Supply and Sanitation, to be tabled
       in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (20)   Agreement between the Government of Sweden and the Government of
       the Republic of South Africa on General Terms and Conditions for
       Development Co-operation, to be tabled in terms of section
       231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (21)   Amendment Agreement between the Government of the United States
       of America and the Government of the Republic of South Africa on
       Community-based Water Board Development Project, to be tabled in
       terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (22)   Amendment Agreement between the Government of the United States
       of America and the Government of the Republic of South Africa on
       Primary Education Results Package Programme: Department of
       Education, to be tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
       Constitution, 1996.

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 (1)    Report of the Board of Control of the Woordeboek van die
       Afrikaanse Taal for 1998-99.


 (2)    Government Notice No 1034 published in the Government Gazette No
       20410 dated 3 September 1999, Withdrawal of Government Notice No
       644 of 19 April 1999 made in terms of section 5(1)(c) of the
       National Monuments Act, 1969 (Act No 28 of 1969).


 (3)    Government Notice No 1044 published in the Government Gazette No
       20410 dated 3 September 1999, Entries in the register of
       immovable conservation-worthy property in terms of section
       5(1)(cC) of the National Monuments Act, 1969 (Act No 28 of
       1969).


 (4)    Government Notice No 2063 published in the Government Gazette No
       20436 dated 10 September 1999, European Programme: Support for
       small, medium and micro enterprises in South Africa.


 (5)    Government Notice No 90 published in the Government Gazette No
       20458 dated 10 September 1999, Designation of Provincial
       Language Committee in the North West, made in terms of section
       8(8)(a) of the Pan South African Language Board Act, 1995 (Act
       No 59 of 1995).


 (6)    Government Notice No 92 published in the Government Gazette No
       20458 dated 10 September 1999, Designation of Provincial
       Language Committee in the Western Cape, made in terms of section
       8(8)(a) of the Pan South African Language Board Act, 1995 (Act
       No 59 of 1995).


 (7)    Government Notice No 91 published in the Government Gazette No
       20458 dated 10 September 1999, Publication of a decision in
       terms of section 11(7) of the Pan South African Language Board
       Act, 1995 (Act No 59 of 1995).
 (8)    Government Notice No 1125 published in the Government Gazette No
       20476 dated 23 September 1999, Registration of heraldic
       representations made in terms of section 10 of the Heraldry Act,
       1962 (Act No 18 of 1962).


 (9)    Government Notice No 97 published in the Government Gazette No
       20499 dated 1 October 1999, Designation of Khoi and San National
       Language Body, made in terms of section 8(8)(b) of the Pan South
       African Language Board Act, 1995 (Act No 59 of 1995).


 (10)   Government Notice No 98 published in the Government Gazette No
       20499 dated 1 October 1999, Normative Framework for the
       recognition of Provincial Language Committees made in terms of
       the Pan South African Language Board Act, 1995 (Act No 59 of
       1995).


 (11)   Convention on the Means of Prohibition and Preventing the
       Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural
       Property, to be tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
       Constitution, 1996.


 (12)   Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention.


 (13)   Convention to the International Centre for the Study of the
       Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property (ICCROM), to
       be tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (14)   Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 (1)    Constitution of the United Nations Industrial Development
     Organisation (UNIDO), to be tabled in terms of section 231(2) of
     the Constitution, 1996.

 (2)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Constitution.