WEDNESDAY, 19 APRIL 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:03.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                 WELCOMING OF PRESIDENT OF BUNDESTAG

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please take your seats. Before we proceed with questions, I wish to recognise the presence, in our midst, of the President of the Bundestag of Germany, the hon Wolfgang Thierse. [Applause.]

You are welcome, sir, and we hope to develop closer links between ourselves and your parliament.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the reported killings in Zimbabwe of white farmers and killings of black supporters of the Movement for Democratic Change;

(2) believes that violence will erode the hard-won freedom of the people of Zimbabwe;

(3) unequivocally condemns the destruction of life and property in Zimbabwe; and

(4) calls on all those who are involved to resolve their differences through meaningful and peaceful dialogue.

[Applause.] Mrs P W CUPIDO: Mr Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern that Government has effectively spent only 40% of the R203 million allocated for poverty relief in the previous financial year;

(2) notes that the child-care grant of R100 per month is totally inadequate;

(3) notes that R300 million is to be spent on a new luxury jet for the President while poverty is rife on the ground;

(4) records the fact that the Leader of the Opposition is in Orange Farm, Gauteng, today at the Tebogo Home for Mentally and Physically Handicapped Children and through the generosity of the private sector has arranged to hand over more than 20 wheelchairs to them, while Government and its national and provincial welfare departments have done absolutely nothing to improve the cruel and inhuman conditions under which the children and staff at that home live;

(5) notes that I visited this home in December 1999 …

[Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) warmly congratulates Nombulelo Mazibuko of Guguletu, Cape Town, on being chosen from 15 finalists from all over Africa as the M-Net Face of Africa;

(2) notes that South Africa rejoices with her and expects her to be a worthy ambassador of our country;

(3) notes that only a few of our national newspapers celebrated this achievement on their front pages; and

(4) congratulates The Citizen and any other newspaper which accorded Nombulelo Mazibuko the singular honour she so richly deserves. [Applause.]

Ms T R MODISE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the contradictory and opportunistic position adopted by the DP regarding the Government’s proposal to buy a jet for an estimated R300 million to be used by the President;

(2) notes that the DP and other parties were part of the deliberations and adoption by the House two years ago of the Defence Review, whose force design included the aspect of VIP transport for the executive;

(3) recognises that the jet, with its up-to-date technology, will make it possible for the President to be contacted in-flight during any journey abroad and that it would cut out refuel stops; and

(4) reiterates its support for the buying of the jet to ensure that the President effectively carries out all his duties.

[Applause.]

Mnr F BEUKMAN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) sy ernstige kommer uitspreek omdat die openbare vergadering vir rolspelers oor die voorgestelde munisipale wyke in die Kaapse Unistad gister nie kon plaasvind nie weens ‘n gebrek aan bestuur deur die Munisipale Afbakeningsraad;

(2) dit betreur dat geen verteenwoordiger van die Munisipale Afbakeningsraad by die vergadering opgedaag het nie;

(3) dit betreur dat tyd en koste van raadslede, lede van belastingbetalersverenigings en lede van die Parlement onnodige verspil is en duur advertensies in die dagblaaie dus ‘n nuttelose uitgawe was; (4) ‘n beroep op die Minister vir Provinsiale en Plaaslike Regering doen om dringend met die Munisipale Afbakeningsraad in verbinding te tree om ‘n behoorlike en deursigtige openbare konsultasieproses oor wyksafbakening in die Kaapse metropool te verseker;

(5) die Ouditeur-Generaal versoek om ondersoek te doen na die aanstelling van Xhakhaza Development Consultants deur die Munisipale Afbakeningsraad om die betrokke vergadering te reël; en

(6) die Ouditeur-Generaal versoek om vas te stel …

[Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr F BEUKMAN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) expresses its serious concern that the public meeting for role- players on the proposed municipal wards in the Cape Unicity could not take place yesterday as a result of a lack of management on the part of the Municipal Demarcation Board;

(2) regrets that no representative from the Municipal Demarcation Board arrived at the meeting;

(3) regrets that the time and money of councillors, members of ratepayers’ associations and members of Parliament were needlessly wasted and that expensive advertisements in the daily newspapers were therefore an unnecessary expense;

(4) appeals to the Minister for Provincial and Local Government urgently to contact the Municipal Demarcation Board to ensure a proper and transparent process of public consultation on ward demarcation in the Cape Metropole;

(5) requests the Auditor-General to investigate the appointment by the Municipal Demarcation Board of Xhakhaza Development Consultants to arrange the meeting in question; and (6) requests the Auditor-General to ascertain …

[Time expired.]]

Dr G W KOORNHOF: Mr Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern the continuously deteriorating situation in Zimbabwe with regard to land invasions, coupled with increasing political tensions within that country;

(2) acknowledges that this untenable situation in Zimbabwe has already resulted in a negative mood in financial markets, including those in South Africa;

(3) urges President Mugabe, as the custodian of his country’s constitution, to exercise his moral and legal duty to ensure that law and order prevail in Zimbabwe, since it is his duty to prevent any further loss of life in his country with regard to this issue; (4) urges all the parties involved in the Zimbabwean situation to negotiate anew measures and resources to implement the land reform programme; and

(5) emphasises that priority number one is to defuse this situation as a matter of urgency, and thereafter to focus on free and fair elections, with a result accepted by all, and then to build the economy of Zimbabwe.

[Time expired.]

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes with grave concern the killing of Cape Town bus driver Luvo Patrick Ganganu and the disruption of public transport in the townships of Cape Town, caused by certain taxi associations;

(2) recognises the consistent engagement of the ANC in the Western Cape in seeking solutions to conflict in the transport sector in the face of the inactivity and passivity of the provincial authorities;

(3) expresses its condolences to the family, loved ones and colleagues of the murdered driver;

(4) calls upon taxi associations to desist from illegal activity and encourages them to abide by the laws of the country and listen to the wishes of commuters; and

(5) welcomes yesterday’s move by the authorities in the Western Cape to end their silence and inaction and act decisively to ensure that taxi operators obey the law.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairman, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) acknowledges that our law currently allows murderers to use drug and alcohol abuse as an excuse for their actions and that they thereby never have to face any consequences;

(2) calls on more judges to boldly and firmly stand against injustice, as did Judge Hlope in his ruling in the Western Cape on 5 April when he sentenced a drug addict to 36 years’ imprisonment for the murder of his two friends;

(3) calls on the courts not to override the overwhelming evidence of a calculated cold-blooded murder by Jared Jackson, alleged murderer of Jodi Williams, by finding him both unfit to stand trial and not in control of his mind at the time of the murder; and

(4) calls on the courts to protect other vulnerable 18-year-olds from Jackson and other drug dealers and conment by seeing that justice is served and that criminals face the consequences and pay the price.

[Time expired.]

Gen C L VILJOEN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the FF:

That the House -

(1) notes with indignation the shameful and lunatic actions comprised of racial attacks with weapons, the burning down of houses and farms and crude intimidation by so-called Zimbabwean veterans against fellow Zimbabweans;

(2) is alarmed and dismayed that a member of state in our region, with the full support of the head of state, could allow the large-scale racial violation of the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights and that he is allowed to get away with it;

(3) consequently resolves that the South African Government, as a member state, will without delay lay a charge against Zimbabwe at the Organisation of African Unity for contravening the said charter; and

(4) further resolves that the South African Government should consider the use of all possible means to bring pressure to bear on the government of Zimbabwe to end the instability before it flows across the borders into the entire region.

Mr M MPEHLE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the strong leadership by the Government as a whole and in particular President Thabo Mbeki in the fight against the HIV/Aids pandemic;

(2) notes that a number of initiatives have been taken to curtail the pandemic, including the establishment of the Partnership against Aids, the formation of the SA National Aids Council, our participation in international fora, former President Mandela acting as patron of UNAids, the previous Minister of Health’s election as vice-president of UNAids and strong leadership by Minister Tshabalala- Msimang on health issues in SADC;

(3) notes the multisectoral approach to the pandemic as evidenced by the budgetary allocations to all line departments;

(4) notes and congratulates the Government on its continuing commitment to stem the tide, as manifested by the 0,4% drop in the incidence of HIV/Aids; and

(5) calls on the pharmaceutical industry to lower its prices on pharmaceuticals, to withdraw its court action on the Medicines and Related Substances Control Amendment Act and to provide voluntary licenses to the Government for the local production of pharmaceuticals at cost-productive levels.

[Applause.]

Mr M WATERS: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  with concern the increasing attacks and murders in Zimbabwe on
       supporters of opposition parties and white farmers;

   (b)  that the High Commission in Harare closes its doors at 09:00
       owing to queues of more than 700 people applying for visas; and

   (c)  that the president of Zimbabwe has deemed certain segments of
       the population as enemies; and

(2) calls on the Minister of Home Affairs immediately to -

   (a)  invoke section 35 of the Refugees Act which allows the Minister
       to grant automatic refugee status to any group or category of
       persons who qualify for refugee status by a notice in the
       Gazette;

   (b)  ensure that the necessary arrangements are made to accommodate
       the anticipated refugees; and

   (c)  deploy additional staff to the High Commission in Harare to help
       with the increased workload.

Mrs I MARS: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) welcomes the commitment made by the World Bank president, James Wolfensohn, that ``There will be no limits to the funds available to fight HIV/Aids in the developing world’’; and

(2) expresses its fervent wish that this commitment translates into action and encourages our Government to ensure that HIV/Aids sufferers gain access to available drugs as soon as possible.

Mr R K SEPTEMBER: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the UN’s finding that the world’s major commercial fisheries are in decline, 40% of agricultural land is degraded and water scarcity may soon limit economic development globally;

(2) further notes that 80% of grasslands are affected by soil degradation, fishing fleets are 40% larger that the oceans can sustain, 20% of drylands are in danger of becoming deserts and 58% of coral reefs are endangered by human activity;

(3) acknowledges that the mismanagement of our planet has already resulted in thousands of deaths, millions of people being left homeless after natural disasters and extensive damage being caused to international economic activity; and

(4) calls on all governments, especially in SADC countries, to ensure that proper laws and regulatory structures are put in place to protect the earth for future generations.

Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP: That the House -

(1) is appalled at the continuous, escalating conflict between a taxi faction serving Khayelitsha on the Cape Flats in Cape Town and the Golden Arrow Bus Company;

(2) is disgusted at the recent death of a bus driver who was shot dead on Saturday, 15 April 2000, whilst performing his duties and also at the slinging of a petrol bomb at a bus;

(3) is aware that the conflict between taxis and bus companies has been coming on for some time and that the recent actions of a certain taxi faction clearly indicate civil disobedience;

(4) denounces violence as a method of solving problems and believes that the principle of ``live and let live’’ should be applied in the present situation;

(5) calls on all role-players to get together to find a suitable solution to the existing problems; and

(6) calls on the authorities to act firmly against any taxi drivers or associations that take the law into their own hands.

                  RETIREMENT OF MS L A ABRAHAMS, MP

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the House -

(1) noting that Ms Liz “Nana” Abrahams is retiring from Parliament this month, and today is her last day in the Chamber;

(2) recognises Ms Abrahams’ long and rich history of involvement and commitment to the struggle for a democratic, non-racial and non- sexist society in our country;

(3) acknowledges that she served this new democratic Parliament with dignity and dedication; and

(4) expresses its sincere appreciation to Ms Abrahams for her outstanding contribution and wishes her a peaceful and restful period during her well-deserved retirement.

Applause.

Agreed to.

              CALL FOR SAFE TRAVEL DURING EASTER PERIOD

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the draft resolution as printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the House -

(1) notes that millions of Christians will, during the weekend, commemorate the death and celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

(2) recognises that there will be long queues of traffic to and from areas of commemoration and celebration;

(3) calls on drivers to observe traffic rules and to drive carefully; and

(4) wishes everyone a happy Easter and a safe journey.

   Arrive Alive! Do not speed! Do not drink and drive! God bless all!

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

          ABSENCE OF MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY DURING
                            QUESTION TIME

                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, the next item on the Order Paper is the subject for discussion. However, before I call upon the Deputy President, I would like to say the following. As I have said, I did communicate with the Minister of Minerals and Energy and have received a letter which I will read to you.

The Minister wishes to convey her humblest apologies, and she then explains her absence and that of the Deputy Minister. She says that the trip abroad on which she is was planned in December and has been postponed twice. In the light of the increase in the petrol price and the need to co-ordinate and co-operate with other countries which also seek to find a solution to the problem of the high petrol price, the trip could not be postponed further. The formation of the state oil company, through the merger of Soekor and Mossgas, is imminent and, therefore, it became critical that the Minister familiarise herself with a successful oil company such as Petrolux.

South Africa is about to introduce gas into the South African economy. The Deputy Minister is attending a conference that is dealing with some of the regulatory matters that they intend to raise with the Cabinet, and then put before Parliament through a gas Bill. It was unforeseeable that the Deputy Minister would not be able to attend and, once again, she sends sincere apologies to the House. It is signed on behalf of the Minister of Minerals and Energy, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka. So that is the apology to the House, and the explanation that we have received for the Ministers’ absence.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, may I just draw your attention to a problem that we have. One of the Ministers, the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, was not present, probably for a good reason, and the Minister of Finance is not present, again for a good reason. In each of these cases, the last occasion that we put oral questions to those Ministers was on 15 March this year. The next occasion that we will have to ask any of those Ministers who are not present oral questions is in June this year. [Interjections.] I would ask that this be looked at, because it is clearly unsatisfactory in terms of our constitutional duty to monitor, call to account and scrutinise Ministers’ performances. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Thank you, Mr Andrew. I would remind you - I do not think you were at the meeting, but your representatives were - that at the meeting of the Programme Committee, when we actually discussed this, we looked at it in the light of the President answering questions as soon as we come back and we then discussed what we should do. So this matter was looked at. If there is a view that it was not satisfactorily answered, I am sure we can look at it again at the next meeting of the Programme Committee. I think the point may be valid, but it was discussed and agreed to by all parties.

I should indicate that with regard to the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism - and I apologise that I did not explain - there was an unplanned summit meeting with President Chissano this morning, and the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism phoned to indicate that he was held up there and conveyed his apologies to me. As I say, my apologies to the House that I did not explain that. [Interjections.] I am providing you with the information I was given.

          PRESIDENT'S APPARENT REFUSAL TO ACCEPT MAINSTREAM
                       SCIENTIFIC VIEW ON AIDS

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, as hon members are aware, there are reports which indicate that sub-Saharan Africa accounts for two thirds of the world’s incidence of HIV/Aids. It has also been reported that millions of Africans have died of Aids, with even larger numbers destined to die. It is within this context that we consider today’s debate to be very important. This, indeed, reflects the seriousness with which we regard this topic. It is, however, regrettable that the manner in which the topic is phrased is based on wrong assumptions and not on facts.

Neither the President not the rest of our Government has made any determination, whatsoever, that would prejudge the conclusions of whatever scientific investigation is happening on HIV/Aids. Accordingly, at no point has the President said that he challenges the view that HIV causes Aids or the contrary. All he said is that there are many issues that are in contention with regard to the matter, and that we need to hear what all the scientists say to ensure that we respond correctly to the frightening and pressing challenge of HIV/Aids.

The President, as the head of state, needs to take informed decisions on all questions that affect the lives of all our people. He is adopting this position with respect to the matter of HIV/Aids. During the last decade and a half, and more, a heated debate amongst scientists and others, relating to this question, has been going on. As the President said in his address to the NCOP last year, a lot of literature has been generated by this debate. We reiterate his challenge to hon members to acquaint themselves with that literature.

As part of Government’s effort to respond to this catastrophe currently, we decided to familiarise ourselves, as extensively as possible, with all matters relating to this pandemic. We came to the conclusion that no scientist or group of scientists can claim a monopoly on all knowledge relating to or regarding this particular matter.

Our view is that it is fundamentally wrong to accept the notion that established mainstream scientific truths must not be questioned. All views on HIV/Aids should be interrogated as part of the process of scientific inquiry and as an attempt to find answers that will enable us to prevail over this disease.

We should not, and we will not, leave any stone unturned, even if this means including the views of the so-called dissidents. It should be remembered that throughout the years, alternative arguments were defined as dissident views, sometimes even as heresy. However, in the fullness of time, those views were often proved to be scientifically correct.

In Europe in the 17th century, the mainstream scientific view was that the sun moved around the earth. An Italian scientist, Galileo, had a different view and believed that the earth moved around the sun. However, his views were considered to be so threatening to the scientific establishment that he was forced to publicly recant. As we all know today, he was right, and they were wrong.

An HON MEMBER: It was his job!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Certainly!

In the history of science, and in particular the history of medical science, there are other examples where solutions were found to difficult challenges as a result of robust scientific debate between conventional and alternative views. This House, which is based on the fundamental principle of the right to differ and to express a different opinion, ought not to balk at the idea that the hon the President is asking scientists to behave as scientists. I would like to refer to a letter written to the hon the President by ACTUP San Francisco, one of the HIV/Aids NGOs in the United States. They state that their organisation has been denied the opportunity to exhibit at the 13th International Aids Conference hosted by South Africa. In their letter to the hon the President they say, and I quote:

For the past decade in San Francisco, we have witnessed the destruction of human life caused by Aids drugs. We hoped, by exhibiting at the conference, we would warn participants to prevent a similar catastrophe from occurring in their countries. Unfortunately, our voice has been silenced by organisers who have, ironically, chosen the theme of ``Break the Silence’’.

What they are saying is that they are committed to open scientific debate and the free exchange of ideas.

The ANC’s political programme is the mainstream political view in this country. However, it would be wrong in the extreme to brand, and therefore shut out, all other political programmes as dissident views. The DP is a minority party that represents less than 10% of the voters of our country, but this party, like all other minority parties in this House, has a programme that appeals to some South Africans. They have a right, therefore, to have their views represented and heard. This fundamental right is indeed enshrined in our Constitution.

Broadening the debate on HIV/Aids has not stopped Government from addressing the pandemic in accordance with the mainstream scientific view. All existing programmes are continuing and new ones are being developed. A ministerial task force against HIV/Aids, chaired by the Deputy President, has been established and meets monthly. We have also established the SA National Aids Council or Sanac, which also meets monthly and is chaired by the Deputy President. This forum brings together the Government and civil society.

Sectors that are represented in Sanac include the youth, women, business, labour unions, religious communities, traditional leaders, traditional healers, people living with HIV, NGOs, the hospitality sector, sports, local government, national Government Ministers and the media. Sanac’s technical task teams have been appointed to address the following priority areas: firstly, prevention; secondly, treatment, care and support; thirdly, research, monitoring and surveillance; fourthly, legal and human rights; and fifthly, social mobilisation, information, education and communication.

We are doing everything we can to increase the level of public awareness about the importance of safe sex and the use of condoms. Whatever the outcome of the research by scientists for answers to the pandemic, clearly, sexually transmitted diseases are an important part of the elements which result in immune deficiency and, therefore, the inability of the human body to cope with various infections. Work is also being done on the development of a vaccine.

As members will recall, we presented to Parliament this year a dedicated budget to fight HIV/Aids, and trust that this House will support the allocation of these funds to fight this pandemic. Indeed, we are doing all we can in the fight against Aids. But suppose we discover, as Galileo did, that the so-called mainstream scientific view is incorrect? Suppose there were even a 1% chance of the solution lying elsewhere? Surely the consequences for all of us would be catastrophic. As a country, we cannot afford to overlook this possibility. In the light of this, an international panel of scientists will be convened next month. It will be expected to openly and candidly discuss all the matters in contention. This panel includes all points of view in the debate, and is constituted of the most eminent world scientists who can help to ensure that we understand HIV/Aids correctly and, therefore, respond to it correctly.

Unfortunately, this has earned us the anger of some, including scientists, who argue that through this process we seek to give legitimacy to dangerous and discredited scientists. They claim that all scientific questions relating to HIV/Aids were resolved in 1984. Needless to say, we do not agree with the view that seeks to freeze science at a particular point in time. Unlike Galileo, we are not in any way suggesting that it is a fact that the prevailing mainstream scientific view is wrong. All we are saying is that issues must be debated and all views considered.

Our ultimate goal is to save the lives of the many men, women and children who are dying daily. We hope that hon members, regardless of political affiliation, will understand the need for them to support the work that we are doing on this important matter. This is not an issue that we should be party politicking about.

Finally, as members of this House, we should consider ourselves as activists against HIV/Aids and accordingly ensure that, in our activities among the people, we further promote the campaign against HIV/Aids for the benefit of our country and its entire people. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker …

Mr T M GONIWE: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I appeal to you to please give me time to make my point.

The SPEAKER: It will have to be very short and sharp.

Mr T M GONIWE: Madam Speaker, while we have been discussing this matter of grave national importance, the very speaker who initiated the debate has not had on an Aids awareness ribbon.

The SPEAKER: Hon member, thank you for that point of order. [Laughter.] It is not a point of order, but it is a point. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, that is quite the most pathetic point of order I have ever heard.

The matter of public importance today is clearly aimed at the President’s apparent refusal to accept the mainstream scientific view that HIV causes Aids. It is, indeed, a pity that he is not here today. However, I want to thank the Deputy President very much indeed for taking this debate, and for participating in it today.

On 17 March David Rasnick, the dissident Aids researcher, released an e- mail in which he reported on a telephone conversation he had held with President Mbeki on the subject of HIV/Aids. [Interjections.] Nothing wrong with that. In the e-mail he states:

Mbeki is good friends with Clinton, the prime minister of England and the German chancellor. He told me that he is going to write these heads of state and ask them to join his efforts to bring about an international discussion on Aids.

Today’s edition of The Washington Post published the letter, dated 3 April, that the President sent to various heads of state, including President Clinton of the United States. The Deputy President today has really simply repeated much that appears in that particular letter. [Interjections.] The letter reveals that President Mbeki remains steadfast in his defence of the Aids dissidents and their views, as the Deputy President has done again today. Its tone and content constitute a serious lack of judgment on the part of the President, which will further undermine South Africa’s international reputation and harm our efforts to combat Aids effectively. [Interjections.]

In the letter President Mbeki makes the valid point that Aids in Africa is a disease that exists on a scale unseen elsewhere in the world. This means that we, as Africans, must develop and implement a response that is effective in our context. There is surely no problem with this, and the hon Mrs Kalyan will deal with elements of what that effective response needs to be. However, the unfortunate and damaging aspects of the President’s letter needs to be discussed.

In the letter the President accuses his critics of an orchestrated campaign of condemnation, of being in the frontline ... of intellectual intimidation and terrorism'' and of acting out ofreligious fervour born of a degree of fanaticism’’. [Interjections.] He says:

The day may not be far off when we will, once again, see books burnt and their authors immolated by fire by those who believe that they have a duty to conduct a holy crusade against the infidels.

[Interjections.] President Mbeki seems to have become so defensive on the subject of Aids that he is placing at risk sound judgment and rational thinking. The consequences for our international standing and reputation can surely only be negative.

Despite what the hon Deputy President said today, we need to consider all views relating to HIV/Aids. There is no doubt about it. Hon members must accept that there is probably more information about HIV/Aids, other than how to cure it, than about any other single disease known to humankind. Billions of dollars annually go towards researching causes and cures. The careers of many of the world’s most talented medical scientists are devoted to this disease.

The hon Deputy President talked about the sun moving around the earth. Amongst the great wealth of knowledge we have on HIV/Aids, there is a tiny, widely discredited fringe group that believes Aids does not exist. [Interjections.] And I say to the Deputy President that this is no great surprise. There are, after all, flat earthists who believe that it is possible to fall off the edge of the world. Every theory has its sceptics, but they are seldom taken seriously. What is surprising is that our President is openly supporting these Aids sceptics.

The President, in his letter, poses three points which, for him, make HIV/Aids ``a uniquely African catastrophe’’ as opposed to the disease in the West. [Interjections.] But this does not address the issue of whether HIV causes or does not cause Aids. The evidence that it does is so overwhelming that to question it is to place oneself in a scientific cul-de- sac.

Aids is a testable phenomenon, one that has been tested many times, with increasing validity. It is tested by scientists in laboratories and doctors in hospitals who use credible, rigorous time-tested scientific methods. These are the points that the President misses in his letter, and in his insistence on dealing with these dissidents.

We are concerned that the reason President Mbeki and his loyal Health Minister want this issue debated, is to obscure the truth that the problem they face is essentially a political one. The issue is not about HIV/Aids, but about what they are going to do to limit its spread. The issue is now not about the success or otherwise of the scientific method, but about the success of the political method. This Government has turned the issue into a serious political one, with serious effects for this country, both nationally and internationally.

This Government has failed dismally to date, and the failures are many: Sarafina 2, which proved beyond doubt that throwing money at the problem does not help at all; the Virodene saga, when, ironically enough, the same President - who was the Deputy President at the time - was prepared to entertain at length a small group of people who claimed to have found a cure for Aids, but this obviously turned into a total scam and also led to the firing of the chairman of the Medicines Control Council, which in itself was a major blow to this country’s medical profession, and perhaps ultimately to the fight against HIV/Aids as well; castigating the pharmaceutical industry in such a way that they became the villains of the piece, rather than the potential heroes they might well prove to be in the race to find a cure for HIV/Aids; and refusing to supply antiretroviral drugs, even to pregnant women, despite the fact that prices of that are hugely discounted, and regarded as cheap worldwide. The failures go on and on.

But perhaps, worst of all, is this whole question of the connection between HIV and Aids. To place the country’s wellbeing into the hands of a few dissidents, whom even the president of our own Medical Research Council has indicated in the most recent Financial Mail - in an article which I believe the Deputy President should read - are not welcome in this debate. He states very pointedly what will happen if we do not heed these implications, and I quote:

… history may judge us to have collaborated in the greatest genocide of our time.

The dissidents with their theories, like the seasons, will come and go. When they are gone, we South Africans will still face the consequences of this unrelenting epidemic and the daunting challenges of the African renaissance.

I want to say to the Deputy President that for someone so committed to this African renaissance, I sincerely hope that he will listen very carefully to what his president of the Medical Research Council has said. [Applause.]

Dr A S NKOMO: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, we contend that Government action is influenced by ANC policy, an ANC policy which forever seeks the truth, and does not worship at the altars of transient calves.

In 1994 the ANC health plan came out with a policy position based on five basic tenets, programming 10 mechanisms of implementation for an holistic approach to the pandemic. I refer hon members to page 42 of the ANC health plan. [Applause.] Already in 1988 the ANC participated with the frontline states at the Maputo Conference in charting a course for the fight against Aids.

We do recognise that most illnesses, including Aids, exhibit essential traits which make for their identification, but they do subject themselves in manifestation to the elements of geography, climate and social conditions. Therefore we see the prevalence of a subtype c-variant of the virus in Southern Africa. It is a subtype whose severity and rapid rate of progression differs significantly from the strain found in the United States.

What is the essence of this difference? Is it the strain itself? Is it the difference in locale? Or is it the difference that one is in the First World and the other one is in the Third World? Can we explain why more than 25% of the adults in Zimbabwe are HIV-positive, while in Madagascar there are only 37 reported cases of Aids, and yet sexually transmitted diseases are common in both countries? Can we explain why, in our country, the subtype variant differs even amongst black and white?

These are questions begging for answers, certainly questions that are worth asking if we are up to arming ourselves with effective and efficacious responses. The result is that we have elicited the help of scientists, not only of local pedigree, but also of wide-ranging international experience, not to reinvent the wheel, but to reinforce our interventions both around prevention strategies and treatment programmes. This is the core, the heart of the matter.

Whilst there is a set of fixed conventional programmes which we are implementing, so much still has to be done in order to come to terms with the full meaning of the pandemic. Yet what do we hear from the hon member Sandy Kalyan and Mike Ellis? They say to us: ``Do not think. Listen to us. We know it all.’’ This is the blissful chorus to which they dance and they invite us to join in this clean-hands charade. Is this not reminiscent of the censorship and jackboots of Vorster, Strijdom and the others before? [Interjections.] Government is charged with a grave responsibility …

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr Ellis, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. May I point out that the hon Mrs Kalyan has not yet spoken so the member cannot respond to her speech.

The SPEAKER: Order! Thank you, but that is not a point of order. Please proceed.

Dr A S NKOMO: Madam Speaker, she has syndicated various articles to various newspapers which we read every day and she is going to repeat those viewpoints this afternoon.

Government is charged with a grave responsibility to care for the afflicted, and actively prevent and lower the rate of new incidences of the disease. We enjoin people to join all progressive forces in finding new qualitative levels of scientific enquiry, in plumbing new depths in relation to the manufacture and cost of pharmaceuticals and vaccines. Should we not challenge the big manufacturers to respond with such new approaches as offering voluntary licensing of pharmaceutical agents so that they may be produced cost-effectively in this country? Should they not begin with persuading their allies to withdraw their court action against the Medicines and Related Substances Control Act which is languishing in the courts of this country? Why not join the call for the rights of patients who submit themselves to trials, the results of which will benefit all of humankind, including themselves? [Interjections.]

Government has not instructed Government-subsidised regulatory authorities to ban the use of antiretrovirals. They are available to this day in the private sector to those who can afford them. But what is strange about this? Whenever legislative action has been taken to extend the availability of the selfsame products to the public sector for all to benefit, it is the same forces who have vehemently opposed and attempted to block such efforts. They want to keep the prices high so that the profits of the pharmaceutical industry should keep rising. [Interjections.]

While orthodoxies are challenged in order to extend the frontiers of access to treatment against the pandemic, it is the same forces who cry wolf. Let us pray that they are themselves not wolves in sheep’s skin. [Interjections.] What is being orchestrated here is that scientific enquiry, which may challenge the profits of the pharmaceutical industry into perhaps effective, homegrown, and therefore cheaper, cost-effective treatment which will be discovered in this process, may in fact ruin the basis upon which the profits of the multinational industries are based. Precisely because there is this possibility, we are not surprised to hear this chorus, this charade of ill-founded opposition. [Applause.] We have here communication, which has been made available to us, intercepted correspondence between presidents of countries, President Mbeki and President Clinton. I do not know if this is not a breach of protocol. Where I come from it is, but this is the level to which people are prepared to sink in order to obfuscate and blur the real issues at hand. May the people of South Africa cease to be used as guinea pigs … [Interjections] … for products which are effective and have been tested in the First World but which may not necessarily be useful here. [Interjections.]

They do not want us to produce pharmaceutical agents which are relevant and peculiar to our conditions here. They want these things to be exported to Britain and the United States and come back at a cost which we cannot afford. [Applause.] Is it not the same thing as what is happening in the mines, where diamonds and gold are extracted by our own people in the mines, and yet, when those products come back, the people cannot afford to buy them?

What is happening today is that products will be produced here, processed in the First World countries, and when they come back here, we will not be able to afford them. The President asked this question and we contend that this question should continue to be asked. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, I think it is very important that we should have a sense of balance on this issue. The President has not said that HIV does not cause Aids. He has never said that. What he has said is that he wants to get as much information as possible, so that the basis of decision-making on this issue, which is so crucial and serious, is a sound one.

Let us take an example. About 4 million people are said to be living with HIV in this country. If we were going to start giving them antiretrovirals, it would cost the Health department about R223 billion. At the moment, they only have R22 billion. Perhaps we are saying that only a certain group of people will get this treatment, but not everyone. That is the only basis on which we can do that. Otherwise, the country cannot afford it. [Interjections.] No, that is nonsense! [Laughter.]

We are thus looking for ways that are meaningful, such as treating the intercurrent infections and the opportunistic infections in those people, which in itself costs a lot of money. Treating cryptococcal meningitis and the TBs that are usually resistant to the general anti-TB drugs costs a lot of money. And that is where our priority is - to help those people who have been infected and to allow them to have sustainable lives through constant medication.

If we are going to go for AZT in pregnancy, people seem to think that one can just do it anyhow. One cannot. One needs very extensive infrastructure if one is going to do this, because people must be hospitalised; and it would also mean that every pregnant woman with HIV must have access. But the tendency is that the cities can afford it and the rest of the country cannot. We cannot discriminate when we give this drug intervention. It must be available and affordable to everybody. Under the present circumstances, it is impossible to achieve that.

I was at a meeting with the head of UNAids, and he said that they quite accept that breast milk carries the virus, but, at the same time, they cannot recommend formula feeding for these mothers, because most of them in the developing world live in rural areas where water is not clean and the children will die of diarrhoea anyway. Thus, they have decided that, although they know that HIV is transmitted in breast milk, the mothers should feed the babies. Now where is the logic in spending huge sums of money giving AZT during pregnancy, only for the mother to go back home and breast-feed. One immediately annuls whatever benefit the intervention would have had.

It is issues like these that the President is asking us to look at seriously and thoughtfully, and to find solutions that are applicable. We should not just think of the urban areas, of the rich people, but what also can apply right across the whole nation. Therefore, emphasising the treatment of STDs, TB, fungal infections and so on, is what we need to proceed with. We must also identify those interventions that will be affordable but effective.

At this stage, we cannot even supply iron tablets and vitamins to every pregnant women in this country. That is where we must begin. One needs to support these pregnant women so that they have healthy children and their immune systems are healthy. Why should we jump to implement expensive interventions when we cannot even provide the basics? That is the nub of the matter. [Applause.]

I have here some print-outs saying that the drug nevirapine causes serious liver damage. If people are on nevirapine or AZT, they need to be constantly monitored medically, because the complications themselves kill people. So, as soon as one sees the elevation of a transaminase - the liver enzymes and so on - one then immediately stops the treatment. Where is one going to have that kind of medical supervision available out there in the rural areas? We know that it is not there, and yet we are expected … [Interjections.] No, no. This is the whole essence of the approach which says … [Interjections.] No, dissidents are one element of the story here. [Interjections.]

In 1974 … [Interjections.]No. In 1960, Howard Temin identified the theory of the provirus as the factor which leads to the perpetuation of the virus in infected cells. It took 10 years before the scientific community would even accept that theory. So we have these occurrences in science where someone comes up with an idea but there are many other people who do not see it, and therefore they look for other options. They look for other alternatives, and this is what is happening in this area.

So dissidents are not, by nature, saying that one should not carry on with research or not look for the right explanations, because we do not have all the explanations. One cannot tell me that a child infected at birth in Africa lives only for 10 years, and that a child infected at birth in the UK and America lives beyond 10 years of age in most cases. Why is that? Is this a racist virus that kills the African child sooner? [Laughter.]

Clearly, there are many other factors that are involved in this issue. How can we be so simplistic and lambaste the President when he says that we should hear all views, get ideas from all sides, and then conclude, when we have had these discussions with all the experts, on what strategy to adopt for this country? That is the direction that we are moving in. [Applause.]

So let us not confuse the people in South Africa. We have never said that they must not use condoms, that they must not alter their lifestyles and that promiscuity is not dangerous. The President has never said that. We are carrying this work on forcefully in the communities. The department is working on plans for voluntary counselling and testing because we want to come to a situation where the majority of people in this country have been tested. We are working on the Aids vaccine, at a tremendous cost to the country. We are funding it. This is a priority, because we realise that we must find a solution to HIV/Aids and we are making strides in this direction. So why is it that it seems that we are believing dissidents and doing nothing? It is not the case. It is, in fact, a very bad piece of disinformation against our President. [Applause.]

Dr S J GOUS: Madam Speaker, the President’s contact with the so-called Aids dissidents has sparked a massive response, especially in the lay press. One can understand this response from the media because the content and implications are indeed sensational. Now, whether the intention was that this interaction become public knowledge, or whether it was merely to satisfy the inquisitive nature of the President’s mind, is not clear.

The fact is that the whole process has been very poorly managed. Whilst we accept the President’s right to speak to whomever and whenever he wants to, there is also a responsibility on the Office of the President not to create doubt, chaos or negative publicity. This certainly has done so. It has created the perception that the President is not sure whether HIV causes Aids. [Interjections.] It has created a podium for discredited scientists, given false hope to Aids sufferers and created doubt in the public mind as to whether HIV causes Aids. This is counterproductive and disruptive, and has the potential to jeopardise the upcoming World Aids Congress in Durban.

The Aids dissidents believe that Aids does not exist, that HIV does not cause Aids, and that HIV is not sexually transmitted. They also believe that poverty, poor sanitation and malnutrition and antiretrovirals cause Aids. Poverty has never been and shall never be a disease. It is part of a complex socioeconomic condition that makes certain people more susceptible, vulnerable and exposed, but is never per se primarily responsible for any disease. Poverty can, at most, be a contributing factor. The fact is that affluent and well-nourished people also contract HIV and die from Aids.

As far as conventional scientists are concerned - which are, by the way, the overwhelming majority - the issue has been settled years ago and is, in fact, a nonissue. [Interjections.] The Aids dissidents’ views were rejected point by point in a 61-page document published in 1995 by the United States National Institute for Health.

Many scientists of good standing and repute have the view that one must not engage in this kind of stale debate or even share a podium with dissidents, as this affords them undue credibility and is counterproductive as it is reinventing the wheel. [Interjections.] It would also be easier to convert flat-earth believers. As Dr Makgoba, the president of the Medical Research Council, so aptly explained:

In science, unlike in politics, we never seek consensus. You are either right or you are wrong.

Here are some irrefutable facts: The HI-virus has been thoroughly researched, probably more than any other known virus. It has been isolated, duplicated, propagated and identified in the most minute detail. No less attention has been given to the link between HIV and Aids, as well as the effect of Aids on the human body. Phenomena and so-called mysteries like immunity, different strains of the virus and different epidemiologies have been well researched and scientifically explained.

Members should please not confuse misdiagnoses, false positive and false negative tests with defective science. These are problems inherent to medicine as a whole. Based on a massive volume of accepted science and experience, I categorically and emphatically state that HIV does exist. HIV introduced to humans leads to a disease known as Aids. The virus can be, and usually is, sexually transmitted. Antiretrovirals have a positive effect on quality and duration of life, despite side effects. They also have an effect on the prevention of vertical transmission. I, therefore, challenge anybody who does not believe that HIV causes Aids to undergo a five millilitre transfusion of HIV-positive blood. [Interjections.] In other words, they must put their money where their mouth is.

In conclusion, perhaps the Government has been so blinded by its vendetta against the pharmaceutical industry that it has allowed itself to be hijacked and led astray by fringe fanatics and nutcases. This leads to the collapse of coherent strategy and more people receiving an inescapable death sentence due to Aids. [Applause.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, South Africa’s liberal approach to sex outside of true marriage carries with it a death sentence that mainly impacts upon our youth. According to statistics, it is the youth who are most vulnerable to the Aids pandemic. The Government is aiding and abetting sexual promiscuity by indiscriminately encouraging a condom avalanche that is steadily undermining all efforts to get HIV/Aids under control. [Interjections.] It is the message of abstinence outside of marriage and not safe sex that will address health and social problems in this nation. Uganda is a good example of this.

Government’s decision regarding an international expert commission which will examine various aspects of the Aids issue has raised much concern, mostly because the primary objective is not to do with how to allocate health care resources in South Africa in an equitable manner, but whether or not HIV causes Aids. David Lepage of the weekly Mail & Guardian suggests that the heart of the problem is a profound misunderstanding on the part of the President, successive Health Ministers and their advisers. An understanding of the nature of science, how it advances and how to make use of its insights is apparently lacking.

Former dissidents who questioned HIV as a cause of Aids have since said that the debate is, quite rightly, dead and buried. This is largely because of the tremendous gains made with regard to successful Aids treatments which were developed on the basis of the HIV-causes-Aids hypothesis.

It does not make moral, economic or political sense to ignore the mountain of evidence that has shown nevirapine and AZT to be effective in reducing HIV transmission from mother to child, nor does it make sense to ignore the fact that Government has been giving AZT to health workers and the drug has proved to be 80% effective in preventing HIV transmission in needle-stick injuries.

These patients can be monitored and the information is, therefore, reliable. Based on these findings, it is more than reasonable to assume that the result would be similar with rape victims. No one is suggesting AZT is the ultimate answer. Toxicity reports must be taken seriously, but in light of these facts, the ACDP believes that mothers and rape victims should be given the choice.

Government’s legitimate concern with regard to the cost of AZT cannot be applied to nevirapine, which costs less than R30 for a full treatment. Many Aids activists and sufferers, however, cannot accept AZT as simply unaffordable when Government gives the impression that money is easily available for millennium bashes and other celebrations. President Mbeki’s view that open debate is useful and a good thing is unquestionable, but what should - and indeed, must - be questioned is the use of public funds to allow this decade-old debate to be dug up when no new evidence has emerged that would justify it.

By the way, breast-feeding alone does not put the baby at risk and the nevirapine dosage is minute. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, Ministers and members, HIV/Aids is not just a health crisis but also a socioeconomic disaster. Therefore, not planning for or accommodating a vaccine to reduce the rate of HIV transmission from mother to child, rape victims, accidental injuries, etc, will cost thousands of lives, especially those of people who are not economically viable, thus creating a setback in human development. It is predicted that the average life expectancy is expected to decrease to 31 years by the year 2010. This makes it almost impossible for employers to reach the quotas required from them by the Employment Equity Act.

An estimated amount of 200 000 children have been orphaned by the disease. SAA loses at least 10 cabin crew annually through Aids-related illness. It costs the airline R22 500 to train an airline attendant, 100 of whom have died over the past 10 years at the cost of R22,25 million.

The HIV/Aids crisis is worsening every day and the hunt for a cure is being urgently intensified. We need to produce a good, cheaper preventative drug. Medical research has proved that nevirapine is 15% more effective, less expensive and easier to administer than AZT. The South African Government cannot afford to administer AZT to pregnant mothers, nor does medical insurance companies cover it, even for members who cannot afford the treatment.

At the moment there is no cure for HIV/Aids. However, the MF advocates combined antiretroviral therapy, for research indicates that this treatment delays the onset of the HIV/Aids symptoms. The side effects are frightening, but which drug does not have side effects? These side effects must be weighed against the advantage of the drug for the prescribed condition. Thereafter, with substantial fairness, reasonable adjustment must prevail. Research shows … [Time expired.] [Applause.] Mrs M A A NJOBE: Madam Speaker, as South Africans I believe we are fortunate to have a President of the country who, from time to time, poses challenges to the nation on issues impacting seriously on the lives of the people. And one such challenge is the basis for today’s subject for discussion. Since the establishment of a democratic order in this country, our President has posed many challenges to this House and to the nation as a whole. We cannot forget his now famous ``I am an African’’ speech to Parliament. At the end of that debate all who made interventions, including all the leaders of the opposition parties, concurred without reservation that they, too, were Africans.

Africa in general, and South Africa in particular, has taken seriously the challenge for a debate on the African renaissance. Recently this very House accepted and committed itself to yet another challenge by the President, viz to make the 21st century an African century.

The question raised by the President on the HI virus should be understood in the context of these broad challenges. It is conventional practice that scientific research methodologies and results are tested, questioned and scrutinised over and over again by other researchers, until most, if not all, questions have been answered. All the better if there is consistency in the answers that emerge. Dr Gous, as a medical person, knows that this is so.

At this stage we cannot claim that all questions about the behaviour of the HI virus have been answered. Arguments about its origin, for example, keep surfacing. The Africans and the monkey meat story, experiments that went wrong in the then Belgian Congo, the link to homosexual males, the linkage of various strains of the virus to the specific regions of Africa and methods by which the effects of the virus on the body’s immune system are measured are all still outstanding questions.

The ANC, as an organisation, is committed to addressing the HIV epidemic within the context of the Bill of Rights. This is reflected in the ANC’s health plan of 1994 and the 1997 Mafikeng conference resolution on HIV/Aids. The ANC-led Government takes seriously the impact the epidemic has had and is projected to have on our society. With 1 700 people said to die of Aids daily in this country, the Government is deeply concerned, particularly that young people are the most affected. The seriousness with which the Government regards the epidemic is reflected in the HIV/Aids policies of the various departments, but more especially in the budget committed to HIV/Aids awareness campaigns and preventive measures. This is indeed an acknowledgement by departments that the HIV/Aids programmes can no longer be the responsibility of the health department alone. Departments on whose constituencies the pandemic impacts most have been clustered to work together in order to address the problem. For example, in its Tirisano co-operative plan, the Department of Education prioritises HIV/Aids as programme number one. With the disease affecting young people mostly, the reasons for such prioritisation are obvious.

Meanwhile, the Department of Health continues to play a leading role in addressing the epidemic. Partnership in Aids programmes allow a common activity in this country. Consortia of NGOs working together under the Beyond Awareness campaign are awarded substantial amounts from the HIV/Aids budget, and that is R34 million to this campaign alone in the last three financial years. For HIV/Aids programmes, the Department of Health’s budget, for instance, in the 1999-2000 financial year, was R109 721.

Following the intersectoral approach, provinces are also doing just as much. In July 1999, the Minister of Health initiated the development of an HIV/Aids strategic plan for South Africa for the next five years. This was in response to the President’s challenge to all sectors of society to become actively involved in initiatives designed to address the HIV/Aids epidemic. A wide range of stakeholders identified, discussed and agreed on priorities for such a plan. These include research, treatment and evaluation. Structures to take charge of all priorities have either been formed or are in the process of being established.

The Department of Health supports research conducted by the Medical Research Council. Unlike in the past when this body concerned itself with basic research, the MRC, under the leadership of Dr Makgoba, its president, is now involved in applied research, including relevant research on an Aids vaccine. The MRC, that is the Medical Research Council, also receives budget support from the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology.

Therefore it is clear that the call by the President for an international panel on HIV/Aids cannot and is not going to stop programmes on HIV/Aids. The President himself is a signatory to the HIV/Aids pledge signed by MPs on 11 March 1999. All that the President is saying is: Let us open our eyes. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: Chairperson, hon members, the idea of sharing South Africa’s effort in the fight against HIV/Aids with world leaders must surely be complimented. However, in his letter to world leaders on Aids in Africa, President Mbeki omitted to highlight the shortcomings of the programme, and I want to take this opportunity to do just that.

In his letter, President Mbeki says that Government has committed itself to a partnership against Aids. Now, in order for any partnership to succeed, there must be mutual trust, sharing, respect and co-operation. What he does not say is that, in reality, the present Government partnership lacks all of these essential qualities.

He goes further to mention that a SA National Aids Council, bringing together Government and civil society, has been established. What he does not say is that in South Africa we have a bunch of politicians, who lack the necessary skill and expertise, directing the national Aids programme, and indulging in a serious power play at the expense of precious human lives. [Interjections.]

One only has to look at the composition of Sanac to see that Government does not wish to engage in debate with civil society. [Interjections.] The council is heavily stacked with 15 Cabinet Ministers and chaired by the Deputy President. [Interjections.] The 17 people who have been selected to represent the so-called civil society he refers to have very little history in dealing with the epidemic and certainly are not experts in the field. [Interjections.] They are also known not to stand up to Government when necessary. [Interjections.]

The President further states that his Government works to ensure that no section of society, whether public or private, discriminates against people suffering from HIV/Aids. However, this is not completely true, because although, in principle, free medical care is provided to pregnant women by the Department of Health, only those women who are HIV-negative qualify. Those one in three pregnant women who are HIV-positive are not given AZT or nevirapine, so the stark reality is that they are discriminated against by virtue of their HIV status. [Interjections.]

President Mbeki also says that, as a government, we are trying to organise ourselves to ensure that we take care of the children affected by Aids. How exactly is this being done, may I ask? Despite proven research that vertical transmission can be reduced by 50%, Government is intent on further research, preferring to hang its refusal on five deaths that are unrelated to nevirapine.

There are moves afoot to spend R300 million on a jet for President Mbeki, yet there is no money for medication to reduce mother-to-child transmission. [Interjections.] At a cost of R25 per child, he will save thousands of lives, give hope to their mothers and save a whole generation of South Africans. [Interjections.]

Forty per cent of the allocated Aids budget was unspent last year. [Interjections.] The Minister of Health says that it is committed. Committed to what, I ask? It is committed to funding a small minority of people to come to South Africa and air sectarian and discredited views, some 15 years after most Western countries finished the debate. [Interjections.] President Mbeki is sceptical about the relevance of Western medical models to the so-called unique African catastrophe of Aids. [Interjections.] He feels that it would be a criminal betrayal of his responsibilities to his people if he were to mimic foreign approaches to treating the disease. [Interjections.] Therefore he insists on South Africa’s right to consult dissident scientists’ views.

The President’s communication with Rasnick and Duesberg is not only dangerous, but also divisive and diversive. In fact, many statutory scientific bodies worldwide have not given credence to any of their views. Peter Duesberg says that he would not worry too much if he were HIV- positive because his hypothesis is that HIV does not cause Aids. Why then does he not put his money where his mouth is and inject himself with HIV- infected blood to prove his hypothesis? [Interjections.]

Duesberg, the supposedly brilliant scientist, does not seem able to differentiate between strains of a virus, because he says that African Aids, American Aids and European Aids are totally different things, and that all they have in common is the name. This is the calibre of the debate which he appears to be capable of, and this is the sort of nonsense that President Mbeki is going to align himself with if he goes ahead with this forum.

In being sceptical about the relevance of using Western medical models to address the so-called catastrophe here, one wonders why President Mbeki even bothers to wear the Western red ribbon on his lapel in support of HIV/Aids awareness. He is making a mockery of those people living with it. [Interjections.]

Surely using Western medical models is a starting point while we search for the so-called African solution? Where is the urgency that the President speaks of in fighting the greatest challenge that we are facing? In his attempt to set up yet another international panel to discuss issues on which only he needs clarity, Nacosa’s comprehensive and sound plan, completed in 1994 and accepted and approved by the Cabinet five years ago, which is a plan for the people by the people, is ignored. It is a typical case of fiddling while Rome burns. [Interjections.]

Mamphela Ramphele says, and I quote:

No coherent management strategy has yet been developed by the Government. This failure results not from lack of expertise in South Africa, but from its disregard by those in government - with tragic consequences. The present government position on Aids is nothing short of irresponsible, for which history will judge it severely.

President Mbeki’s intention to force this debate at an international forum just before the Aids conference … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member!

Mrs S V KALYAN: … is ill-timed, ill-considered … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member! [Interjections.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: … and unfortunate. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Mr Chairperson, Deputy President, the UCDP welcomes the snap debate on this dreadful disease. However, we have observed that the approach towards finding a solution to it has brought about conflicting opinions. People tend to ignore international medical consensus that the benefits of AZT outweigh its risks.

In 1995, the United States National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases published a 61-page scientific rebuttal of the theory that HIV does not cause Aids, concluding that individuals from different groups, for example homosexual men, elderly transfusion recipients, heterosexual women and drug-using heterosexual men, have, in fact, all developed Aids with only one common denominator, infection with HIV.

At the 1992 international Aids conference in Amsterdam, delegates sported badges stating: ``It’s the virus, you idiot!’’ in reference to Duesberg’s theory that HIV does not cause Aids. Then he was the butt of international jokes. Now South Africa, with this story, is making headlines in the USA.

Glaxo-Wellcome’s discounted price for AZT for HIV-positive pregnant women is R350. At this price, treatment with AZT of every HIV-positive pregnant woman in South Africa would cost around R28 million. Add to this, testing, counselling, breast milk substitutes, formula for total … [Time expired.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Mr Chairperson and the hon the Deputy President, Aids exists; let us fight it together. The issue of the HIV/Aids epidemic was identified in January 2000, in the United Nations’ proceedings, as the single greatest threat to Africa’s future. Southern Africa stands at the epicentre of this scourge.

The hon the Deputy President is correct when he says that all views must be considered. This is my view, viz that Aids exists. Hon President Mbeki’s dream of an African renaissance is more likely to turn into an African nightmare, as a direct result of these careless and unfounded utterances on the existence of the Aids virus.

It will be remembered that, together with the former Minister of Health, Dr Zuma, President Mbeki criticised those who questioned the use of the industrial solvent Virodene. Today, I want to challenge all the political leaders in this Parliament, President Mbeki, the Deputy President, Dr Buthelezi, Marthinus van Schalkwyk and all others, to go for Aids tests publicly. [Interjections.] Listen, I said all the leaders! [Interjections.] Leaders must set an example by publicly going for the test to show their followers that it is better to know your status rather than to live in ignorance and possibly infect more people around you. [Interjections.] I will personally make the arrangements for this test.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon member, there is a point of order.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: No, Mr Chairperson, I was just saying to my sister that if the bishop will go for a test, then I will go for it as well. [Laughter.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Yes, I said all the leaders, including the bishop. Everyone! Everyone, I say. [Interjections.] President Mbeki as well.

I wish to draw hon members’ attention to a study that was done in the United States which found that most of the people go into a very strong denial phase once they are diagnosed with the disease. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Mrs P DE LILLE: Am I going to get my time, Chairperson?

Mr D J SITHOLE: Mr Chairperson, I wonder if the hon member would take a question?

Mrs P DE LILLE: Mr Chairperson, I do not have time. Outside the House I will take a question, so if he wants to fight I will fight outside. I just want to draw the attention of the House to a study that was done in the United States, which found that most people go into a very strong denial phase once they are diagnosed with the disease, and they question HIV.

My second challenge to all members in this House is to stop talking and start doing what I did and sponsor at least one HIV orphan. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson, is the hon member allowed to bribe me in the House? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! It is not in order, hon member, but I have carefully watched it happening in the House. [Laughter.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, I will not hug the hon the Minister. He does not need to worry!

Every minute, 11 people in the world are infected by the HI virus. Ten of those are in Africa south of the Sahara.

Dit is ‘n reusekrisis wat ‘n gesamentlike veldtog van ons almal verg. In Suid-Afrika lyk dit of die veldtog teen vigs nou uiteindelik begin momentum kry. Die probleem is, teen hierdie agtergrond van sukses glo ek dit is ‘n fout van die President om in hierdie stadium ‘n openbare debat oor die verwantskap tussen MIV en vigs aan die gang te sit. Hoekom sê ek dit? Ek het twee redes.

Ek sê dit omdat die debat só tegnies is dat die gewone man nie verstaan waaroor dit gaan nie. Wat is nou die resultaat? Daar is verwarring by mense oor of MIV werklik vigs veroorsaak of nie, en hoe dit elkeen raak. Sommige veldwerkers berig dat die jeug heel verstaanbaar sê: ``As die Regering vraagtekens daaroor plaas, waarom moet ons ons bekommer?’’ en dan weer begin terugkeer na hulle ou gewoontes. Jare se werk en miljoene rande kan deur hierdie verwarring verkwis word. Dit is die eerste rede.

Die tweede rede waarom dit nie nou ‘n goeie idee is nie, is dit: die Adjunkpresident is reg dat Galileo veroordeel is omdat hy gesê het die aarde draai om die son. Galileo is egter nie deur die wetenskaplikes van daardie tyd veroordeel nie, maar deur die kerkleiers; kerkleiers wat niks geweet het van die wetenskap nie en as bewys ‘n Bybelteks gebruik het wat sê die aarde staan op pilare.

Is dit nou die taak van almal van ons as politici wat hier sit, ook van myself en die agb President, om by hierdie tegniese debat betrokke te raak? Die agb President, ons almal in hierdie Huis en Suid-Afrika in sy geheel, loop die risiko om, wat gesondheidsnavorsing betref, ons geloofwaardigheid in die wêreld daar buite te verloor. Laat die wetenskaplikes die geveg uitveg sover dit hulle aangaan. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[This is a huge crisis which requires a joint campaign by all of us. It seems as if the campaign against Aids is at last gaining momentum in South Africa. Against this background of success, I believe that the problem is that it is a mistake for the President to start a public debate on the connection between HIV and Aids at this stage. Why am I saying this? I have two reasons.

I am saying this because the debate is so technical that the ordinary person cannot understand what it is about. What is the result of this? People are confused about the question of whether HIV can really cause Aids or not, and how it concerns everyone. Some fieldworkers report that young people are saying, quite understandably: ``If the Government is questioning it, why should we be concerned about it?’’, and then go back to their old habits. Years of work and millions of rands could be wasted because of this confusion. That is the first reason.

The second reason why it is not a good idea at present, is this: the Deputy President is correct in saying that Galileo was condemned because he said the earth revolved around the sun. However, Galileo was not condemned by the scientists of his time, but by the church leaders; church leaders who knew nothing about science and used, as evidence, a text from the Bible which states that the earth stands on pillars.

Is it the task of all of us, as politicians sitting here, including the hon the President and myself, to get involved in this technical debate? The hon the President, all of us in this House and South Africa as a whole, run the risk of losing our credibility in the outside world, as far as health research is concerned. Let the scientists sort this matter out between them.]

The South African Department of Health expects 250 deaths this year from Aids. Our ultimate goal is to save lives, according to the hon the Deputy President, and I totally agree with him. Let the scientists fight it out, because this debate is only causing confusion and does not help anybody. [Time expired.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, die blote formulering van ons onderwerp vandag laat reeds rooi ligte flikker. Wat ons vandag bespreek, en die uitspraak, lê nie op die terrein van ‘n president nie. Dit is nie die taak van ‘n regeringshoof om as’t ware ex cathedra-uitsprake te lewer oor ingewikkelde medies-tegniese kwessies nie. In dié opsig skaar ek my by die agb dr Mulder.

Is dit nie ironies nie? Die agb President maak soos Liewe Heksie. Hy praat as hy moet swyg, maar hy swyg as hy moet praat! Dit waarvoor hy tot die hoë amp verkies is, naamlik die beskerming van die demokrasie en die beginsels van die regstaat, word gruwelik aan ons grense deur mnr Mugabe verkrag. ‘n Krisissituasie ontstaan in die substreek waar mnr Mbeki die leiding moet neem, spore daarvan masel uit in ons eie land en hy bly doodstil. Hy swyg soos die graf. [Tussenwerpsels.] Intussen debatteer ons vandag uitsprake van die agb President wat tuishoort by, nie eens ‘n gewone medikus nie, maar by spesialisnavorsers. Nie eens die man met die stetoskoop nie, slegs die man met die mikroskoop, kan hieroor uitsluitsel gee.

Hierdie is die vierde uitspraak van tegniese aard in die vigsdebat wat deur politieke ampsbekleërs in die Regering gemaak word. Dit was eers Virodene, toe AZT, toe nevirapine en nou die ontdekking dat MIV nie vigs veroorsaak nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Is dit moreel regverdigbaar dat welbewese medisyne om onaanvaarbare redes gedemoniseer word? Is dit regverdigbaar dat toksologiese en ekonomiese redes met mekaar verwar word? Is dit nie opvallend nie dat die deskundiges wat oorspronklike navorsing gedoen het deur die bank die kousaliteit van MIV met vigs onderskryf, terwyl geen oorspronklike navorsing deur die dissidents'' gedoen is nie. Dit staan soos 'n paal bo water dat vigs in Suid-Afrika seksueel oorgedra word. Dit staan verder vas dat alle vigs-pasiënte die MI-virus onder lede het. Ons kan projekte van stapel laat loop, ons kan 'n rooi strikkie om die Unie-gebou bind as ons wil, maar onverskillige uitsprake soos dié sal die probleem net vererger en ons samelewing, wat reeds promisku is, kan 'n sein ontvang van,laat waai maar, dit is nie so gevaarlik nie’’.

In die laaste plek … [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, the very formulation of our subject today is already causing the alarm bells to ring. The subject we are discussing today, and the pronouncement are not within the province of a president. It is not the task of a head of state, as it were, to deliver ex cathedra verdicts about complicated medical technological questions. In this regard I am siding with the hon Dr Mulder.

Is it not ironic? The hon the President is doing what ``Liewe Heksie’’ does. The President speaks when he should remain silent, but he remains silent when he should speak! What he was elected to the highest office to do, namely to protect democracy and the principles of the constitutional state, is being grossly violated on our borders by Mr Mugabe. A crisis situation has developed in the sub-region in which Mr Mbeki should take the lead, and there are indications of a similar situation developing in our own country, but he remains dead quiet. He is as silent as the grave. [Interjections.] Instead we are today debating statements made by the hon President which are not even relevant to an ordinary doctor, but to specialist researchers. Not even the man with the stethoscope, only the man with the microscope, can pronounce upon this.

This is the fourth statement of a technical nature which has been made by political office bearers in Government in the Aids debate. First it was Virodene, then AZT, then nevirapine and now the discovery that HIV does not cause Aids. [Interjections.] Is it morally justifiable for proven medicines to be demonised for unacceptable reasons? Is it fair to confuse toxicological and economic reasons? Is it not significant that the experts who conducted the original research without exception endorse the causality of HIV with Aids, while no original research has been done by the dissidents.

It is as plain as a pikestaff that Aids in South Africa is sexually transmitted. There is also no doubt that all Aids patients have the HI virus. We can launch projects, we can tie a red ribbon around the Union Buildings if we like, but careless remarks such as these will simply compound the problem and our society, which is already promiscuous, may receive a message that says, ``go ahead, it is not that dangerous’’.

In conclusion … [Time expired.]]

Mr M A MANGENA: Chairperson, a lot of people have said all sorts of things about HIV/Aids, but the basic, solid facts are the following: HIV is not a myth. The existence of the virus has been established scientifically through research. HIV is passed from one person to another through body fluids such as blood and sexual secretions. In time, those with HIV go on to develop Aids. All people with Aids, without exception, are also HIV- positive. No one has ever developed Aids without being HIV-positive first. All these facts have been established through scientific research.

A few voices have been heard doubting whether HIV leads to Aids. This suggests other factors might be responsible for Aids or at least the speed and the scale of its manifestation. These sceptics have conducted no known scientific research and their pronouncements are therefore pure speculation, at least at this point in time. At present, while we may not smother the voices of the so-called sceptics, we have to wait for them to produce scientific evidence to back their theories. That is what science demands of us.

The same science demands that we do not close our minds to anything, as no one can claim to know everything. This Parliament, as a national institution, has a duty and responsibility to alert all people to the dangers of HIV and to urge everyone to take the necessary measures to prevent infection by that virus. The Government has an added duty to provide those who have been stricken by HIV/Aids with available and safe medicines to deal with associated opportunistic infections. Government is further duty-bound to encourage, facilitate and support attempts geared at finding a cure or a vaccine for Aids. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I have just returned from Atlanta in the United States, where I attended a conference representing a collaborative effort of more than 24 Ministers of Health of Africa, US representatives of bilateral and multilateral agencies, the private sector and NGOs. Had Mr Ellis been there to deliver the kind of speech that he subjected us to this afternoon, I am sure that every one of those participants would not have believed that he is a South African. [Interjections.]

What Mr Ellis has said this afternoon about the White House and President Clinton is also not true, because he is misrepresenting the White House. If it were true, the White House would not be gearing itself to receive our President Thabo Mbeki on a state visit in the US. Mr Gous of the New NP is also really out of step. HIV has not been thoroughly researched. I just got a book, also in Atlanta, which outlines HIV research being undertaken in the US and all over the world, including South Africa. Mr Gous might want to borrow my book.

Let me begin by stating categorically for the record that neither the President nor, indeed, members of the Cabinet have ever said that they do not believe that Aids exists, nor have we ever said that we deny the linkages between HIV and Aids. I trust that, having said this so clearly today, the opposition parties and the media will now cease to repeat their lies. [Interjections.]

What we are saying is that there is no consensus on the variety of issues on HIV and Aids. Questions of science are not always answered directly. Sure, light bulbs can turn on and the sun rises in the east, but medical sleuthing always works in strange ways. Researchers often speak of serendipity or an accident. They focus on one thing and discover something very different or even more important. Sometimes finding the answers comes from the study of a clue and self-evidence, creatively acting on a hunch. So the debate amongst scientists goes on and will always continue to be there. [Interjections.]

Science has already indicated that there is a clear difference between the types of HIV that infect the people in the West and sub-Saharan Africa. Certainly, therefore, our responses to the epidemic can never be identical. We as South Africans must seek solutions that are specific and targeted, so that they indeed intensify and enhance our own programmes. Moreover, the determinants of the HIV/Aids epidemic cannot be explained only in terms of individual risk-taking behaviour. Some of the other factors that fuel the epidemic are social deprivation, migrancy, poverty and gender imbalances - factors to be found mainly amongst the Africans in this country.

In addition, in developed countries the infection is mainly found among men who have sex with men, people who use drugs by injection and commercial sex workers. In sub-Saharan Africa, the infection is found mainly amongst heterosexual people. But the question for us is: Why has there been an increase of new HIV cases mainly amongst the blacks, in particular Africans? Is there something that we are no getting right? What about our communication strategy? Why the racial and gender differentials even amongst us, the citizens of South Africa?

Despite the propaganda that is being spread to the contrary, in our country the fight against the disease has intensified greatly. Please hear me when I say this: the scientific debates that have been going on both here and in the international arena have not disturbed or derailed our efforts in any way. The Department of Health has developed a comprehensive five-year strategic plan for HIV/Aids, with five priorities which have already been mentioned by the Deputy President. For those who persist in saying that the Government, under the leadership of our President Thabo Mbeki, is doing nothing, let me give a brief outline of what we are doing every day in terms of the strategic plan - and I expect members of Parliament to know this. In fact, we are procuring and distributing condoms freely to the public, including at nontraditional outlets such as youth clubs, hotels and spaza shops. A policy on the distribution of female condoms will soon be in place. We are tightening and improving the syndromic management of STDs in the public and private sector, and the efforts to encourage all businesses to provide care for their employees in the workplace. Pilot sites have been established in four provinces in order to address the dual HIV/TB epidemic.

Guidelines on the holistic management of HIV-positive pregnant women have been developed. We are rolling out voluntary counselling and testing sites in our country. We are continuing to support research on the use of antiretrovirals, including nevirapine. Treatment guidelines on the management of opportunistic infections in adults and children have been developed. Several models of home-based care have been costed, and provinces are currently looking at adapting these to suit their own unique situations. We are consulting widely in order to find creative and suitable ways of coping with the challenge posed by the growing number of orphans in our country. All this is about improving the quality of care for those infected and affected with HIV and Aids.

Countries that have shown success in the fight emphasised the need for a strong intersectoral response to this silent scourge. Government continues to fund NGOs and community-based organisations whose activities empower communities to cope with the impact of the epidemic and to devise their own interventions for care and support. In this context, the SA National Aids Council becomes very critical.

The challenge is enormous, but there is hope. Yesterday we released the 1999 antenatal survey findings. These figures are, in fact, slightly down from those in 1998, despite the opposition parties’ conspiracy theories and dire predictions. The national figure for 1999 is 22,4%, as opposed to 22,8% for 1998. Amongst the youth we have recorded a decline in the prevalence rates amongst teenagers from 21% to 16,5%. [Applause.]

These figures suggest that the rate of infection might be beginning to stabilise slightly. Perhaps, despite all the criticisms, some of what we are actually doing is beginning to show dividends. For those who are interested in facts, rather than destructive rumour-mongering, the report is available from the Department of Health.

In the light of the antenatal survey findings, as announced and published yesterday, if I were Mrs Sandy Kalyan, I would not even have participated in this debate. [Interjections.] Shame on her for misleading the nation by saying that the most obvious reason for not releasing the antenatal survey findings is that the results are embarrassing to Government, because they indicate a large increase in the number of infections.

Ngithi kuye: Uphoxekile ntombazane! [To her I say: lady you were disappointed!]

Scientific debate is a healthy and necessary aspect of our response. Mr Jim Warner, the then White House policy adviser, in January 1998, called for a similar meeting to the one we are convening in May this year, in order to deal with some of the concerns of the policy-makers. Warner, at the time, was concerned that funds spent on Aids research and programmes should not be misdirected. This meeting did not take place, because Robert Gallo said that he had no time to waste over such things. I hope that is not what hon members are saying. Ours will go on. [Interjections.] No general goes to war without knowing everything there is to know about the enemy at hand. [Interjections.] We have to be brave in order to face the challenges posed by the epidemic, even in the face of the opposition’s criticism.

Success can only be achieved if everyone contributes to the efforts. Our success resides in our collective responsibilities, and our efforts should be within the communities. Government and civil society should continue to foster new relationships in order to address this epidemic in a united and comprehensive manner. I am sure most South Africans - I am not sure about the DP - will rise to the occasion. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I want to say that this has really been a frustrating and debilitating debate, because all it has really done is to polarise parties on the issue of Aids, and this can really be detrimental to this country’s fight against the disease.

Quite frankly, the vilification today by the ANC of all those who have expressed serious concern about the President’s fraternising with the HIV/Aids dissidents is appalling. However, what we really have to worry about is whether this debate on whether HIV leads to Aids or not, is taking this country back many years. At a time when we should be boldly moving forward with nonparty-political policies to counter the spread of Aids, instead, in reality, we are now only debating what the cause of Aids is, and whether it even exists.

I want to say that the response from the hon Abe Nkomo was exactly what we expected from him, because opposition parties have become used to him doing little more than strutting ANC rhetoric, regardless of whether it is relevant in a health debate or not. We tend to forget that he is a medical doctor, because most of his statements these days seem to ignore any real medical facts, and he is there clearly only to please his masters. [Interjections.] It is hard to believe that he received the Kaizer award for service in the field of health last year. I believe he should seriously consider handing back that medal. If he does not, we should at least be asking the Kaizer Foundation to take it back. [Interjections.] The Minister clearly does not know what is going on. Here is the letter - I beg members’ pardon: I do not have it with me here - which the Minister claims was interpreted wrongly. The Minister should do what the President loves doing: she should go to the Internet and get it off, and then she will see for herself exactly what the President said. [Interjections.]

Quite frankly, I believe that the hon the Minister will regret her time in Parliament. She will not be forgiven for having made the pronouncements on HIV/Aids that she has made. But only time will tell. She will see that I was right. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, please take your seats. The House is not adjourned yet. Just sit down and relax a little bit. I know we have been rubbing shoulders - that is very healthy.

Hon members, on behalf of the presiding officers, I want to wish you a good stay with your families during the Easter holidays. May God protect you and keep you safe, until we meet again when we come back in May.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 18:53. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bill was introduced in the National Assembly by
     the Minister in the Office of the President on 19 April 2000 and
     referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification
     in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     National Youth Commission Amendment Bill [B 25 - 2000]
          (National Assembly - sec 75). The Bill has not yet been
          referred to a committee. [Explanatory summary of Bill and
          prior notice of its introduction published in Government
          Gazette No 21107 of 17 April 2000.]

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    The National Council of Provinces on 18 April 2000 agreed to the
     Competition Amendment Bill [B 10B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec
     75) subject to proposed amendments (see Announcements, Tablings
     and Committee Reports, p 344). The Bill and proposed amendments
     were thereupon referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and
     Industry in accordance with Rule 270.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
 Economic Co-operation Promotion Loan Fund for 1998-99 [RP 63-2000].

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (1)    Report of the Department of Justice for 1998-99 [RP 52-2000].

 (2)    Report of the South African Law Commission for 1999 [RP 53-
     2000].

 (3)    Report of the Judicial Service Commission for 1998-99.

 (4)    Draft Protocol to the African Charter on Human and Peoples'
     Rights on the Establishment of an African Court on Human and
     Peoples' Rights, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
     Constitution, 1996.

 (5)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Draft Protocol.