WEDNESDAY, 14 JUNE 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 11:01.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                    TIME FOR DECLARATIONS OF VOTE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That, notwithstanding Rule 81, the time for a declaration of vote today shall not exceed two minutes. Agreed to.

                    COMMEMORATION OF 16 JUNE 1976

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The SPEAKER: Order! Before calling on the hon the Minister to address the House, I just want to note that the absence of members from this House is in no way reflective of our desire to commemorate this day. As all members are aware, there have been problems in trying to travel to Parliament. Perhaps we are, as MPs, experiencing some of the other problems that most of our constituents face regularly. I now call upon Minister Pahad to address the House. [Applause.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, may I also, on behalf of my Cabinet colleagues, tender their apologies because they are sitting in a meeting of the Cabinet right now.

I think it is most appropriate that Parliament continues to mark Youth Day, which, as we all know, we shall celebrate on Friday. In doing this, it is also timeous that we take stock and think about the role of the youth in our nation and our world, and gain inspiration for all of us to build a better future.

The date 16 June 2000 marks the 24th anniversary of a day which was exceedingly bloody, but in some respects also beautiful. It was a day on which many thousands of young people marched to declare war on apartheid, language bigotry and minority rule. They put their nation first, before their own pleasures and pastimes, and they risked the bullets with at times nothing but their bare hands to defend themselves.

There are some who are members of Parliament who were in the forefront of that particular struggle. With this sacrifice in mind, in two days’ time we shall be celebrating the theme ``Youth action towards the African century’’

• a theme dedicated to young people who shall make their future an African century.

It is also necessary, I think, in reflecting upon 16 June 1976, to state briefly the profound impact that the Soweto and connected uprisings had on the entire liberation struggle. For example, it galvanised, energised and brought into the ANC’s people’s army, uMkhonto weSizwe, a very great number of young people. These young people not only added quantitatively to the people’s army, but also, in many serious respects, qualitatively. From amongst these young people a number are no longer with us. We will recall that in the heinous raids on Matola in Lesotho, and in Botswana, a number of our people who were killed were of the 1976 generation.

At the same time, from the 1976 generation we produced some of our best quality cadres. Today many of them occupy very important positions in the public, as well as the private sector. But it also behoves us to ask ourselves: What is it that led to these young people agreeing to make the sacrifices that they were ready to make? What is it that we need to do today to fire our young people with that same kind of enthusiasm to sacrifice in the national interest?

As is well known, a host of activities will take place and have started already during this month. There will be a week focusing on youth against crime, an ongoing HIV/Aids awareness campaign, a wreath-laying ceremony at the Hector Petersen Memorial and a national youth rally, which will be held on 16 June in Durban. An important event that will take place on that day will be a joint conference between the ANC Youth League and the Afrikaner Jeugliga. Both leagues have reached consensus on the fact that there is a shared commitment to building a new, united, nonracial, nonsexist, prosperous South Africa.

Let me add that, in the interactions between these two youth leagues, what the ANC Youth League has found from the NP Youth League is a very positive approach to South Africa. I might add that it will get the same response from young Jewish people, because a survey done by the Jewish Board of Deputies, found a very optimistic approach to South Africa.

It is as well for us to remember that we are sitting in this democratic Parliament in a free South Africa because there were many millions of people throughout the world who were prepared to make sacrifices and give of their time in order for us to liberate South Africa. In what was one of the most powerful solidarity movements that we have ever seen in the history of the world, there were young people of all colours and creeds, men and women, who took to the streets, gave up their time, attended meetings, and fought so that their governments would come and be a part of the broad anti-apartheid movement.

Therefore, it is necessary for us today also to pay due homage to those many millions of young people who gave their all so that we could be in a democratic South Africa. Those members who are young enough to remember 1968 will recall, if they were in Europe and the USA, the tremendous struggles put up, especially by students, against the then French Government, the Vietnam War, and archaic educational systems which stifled the creativity and initiative of students. The revolution, insofar as it was a revolution that occurred within the education systems in many parts of Europe, was a direct consequence of those 1968 student revolts.

I should add that those of us who were in the ANC Youth League and were students at that time are quite proud that we were part of that great struggle, including President Mbeki. One of the interesting things about our own history in South Africa is that, if one takes the ANC from the time it was founded in 1912, one will find that there were always young people in the leadership of the ANC.

In more recent times, President Mbeki, Deputy President Jacob Zuma, and the late Chris Hani were three of the people who, when they were elected onto the national executive committee of the ANC, were still between the ages of 33 and 35. They were not put there because of their age. They were put there because it was recognised that they could and would play a fundamental role in our revolutionary struggle and in the future, and I think this has proved to be correct.

Today, as we in Parliament mark this wonderful Youth Day, let us make an appeal to all political parties not to party-politicise this matter. Let us appeal to all the youth of all the racial and ethnic groups of South Africa and say to them that this is not a Youth Day only for black youth. This is a Youth Day for all of us, because this is the day on which the youth should say to themselves that they are now in a new, democratic South Africa. The past will not be forgotten, but learning from the past, together we are going to build that most beautiful of countries, a democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous South Africa. [Applause.]

Ms H I BOGOPANE: Madam Speaker, Minister Pahad, members of the House, I have been tremendously distressed by the renewed calls in the printed and electronic media about the appropriateness of Youth Day in the new millennium. These calls are then followed by pictures of drunk young men shouting insults at their female peers and their mothers and their President, as if to justify calls that Youth Day be condemned to the dustbins of the past.

Reactive forces within the opposition party appear to be behind some of the mischievous and insulting questions raised as to whether the time has not come to let bygones be bygones, and put the past behind us and look to the future by closing the chapter on the 16 June uprising that no longer has any relevance to today’s youth. These calls come - needless to say - from the very same reactionaries who today are sitting comfortably in the opposition benches, and who were, in fact, the masters of the madness and evil that triumphed when police opened fire on unarmed children on that fateful day of 16 June 1976. This is a day to be shared and remembered, not only by South Africa, but by the international community as a whole.

Children and young people were killed, abducted, raped, tortured, poisoned and imprisoned for long periods without trial, and harassed mercilessly for their actions and beliefs. Limbs were broken, joints crushed, heads smashed and eyes gouged out. Many young people lived in fear, often on the run for months at a time. Many were forced to flee this country.

I want to state today that the pictures of drunk youths disgracing themselves and the nation, are precisely why we cannot allow our youth ever to forget the sacrifices that our children and our young people made in 1976 in the name of justice, peace, freedom and equality. The time has come for us to honour the young men and women who sacrificed their limbs, their lives and their sanity so that we could be free as a nation, be given back our dignity as a people and be reunited with the people of our continent of Africa. We owe it to those heroes to ensure that our youth of today internalise the fact that our youth counts, that they can and should make a difference, that they are central to the development and prosperity of South Africa, and that they are key role-players in the African century - leaders of tomorrow.

We also owe it to our country to ensure that no one is marginalised in the process, that we not only respect the diversity in our nation but that we, in fact, thrive on it. We need to do this by ensuring that all young people, irrespective of how poor or rich they are, whether they live in suburbs, townships, informal settlements, on farms or in rural villages, whether they are disabled or non-disabled, whether they are black or white, whether they are Muslim or Christian, can contribute equally to the development and transformation of our society, as they did in 1976 and continue to do to date.

We also need to acknowledge that the only way we can ensure that they have access to equal participation is if we ensure that we level the playing fields by removing barriers to participation and if we find ways of using our diversity to contribute to the same vision of the African century - that of an Africa united against conflict and war, against poverty, against corruption, against exploitation and against HIV and Aids; as an Africa proud of who we are, of our achievements and the rich history of our humanity, an Africa that is ready to take its rightful place in the global village. We are and we will.

However, we can only achieve this if we are provided with new opportunities to regain our sense of direction, respect for ourselves and other people, by being introduced to our roots, by being brought into contact with our youth leaders of the 16 June uprising, and by being provided with opportunities and tools for development and improvement. Thus far we are on the right road. It is, indeed, an achievable dream.

Even more importantly, we need to renew and strengthen our efforts to ensure that our youth reach adulthood and realise their dreams, by ensuring that they know how to protect themselves against contracting HIV and Aids. Thus far we are on the right track. We will win. We are on the right track in terms of youth development. Never have we been free as we have been in the past six years as young people in this country. Allow me to quote what our President said during the launch of the partnership against HIV and Aids. He said:

HIV and Aids is not someone else’s problem. It is my problem, it is your problem. By allowing it to spread, we face the danger that half of our youth will not reach adulthood. Their education will be wasted and the economy will shrink. There will be a large number of sick people, who the healthy will not be able to maintain. Our dreams as people will be shattered. The young people of this country are saying that the same energy and the same fighting spirit we had in 1976, when we contributed to the liberation of this country, are being redirected against HIV and Aids. It is a battle that we as young people are prepared to fight, and we will win.

Youth Day is about honouring the memories of South Africa, of those young people that have fallen in the name of justice, peace and freedom. Youth Day is about celebrating the abilities and contributions that the youth made and are making to the transformation and reconstruction of South Africa. However, Youth Day is also about reminding ourselves that we need to ensure that we create an enabling environment within which our youth and, in particular, youth with disabilities, are able to participate and contribute to the transformation of society by enabling them to play a central role in this process.

As young people in this country, we promise our President our support. He can count on us. We will be there to transform South Africa. [Applause.]

Mr M L DA CAMARA: Madam Speaker and hon members, the DP joins the country in celebrating our Youth Day. On the eve of 16 June, we, as Parliament, should use this opportunity to reflect on the state of our youth. There is undoubtedly much to celebrate. The sacrifices made by young South Africans in 1976 and throughout the apartheid era have borne fruit. The slogan of liberation now, education later’’, has been replaced by cries of education now’’.

The days of our young men and women fighting in wars they could neither understand nor support are now over. It is an indisputable fact that throughout our recent history, young people have played an important role in establishing a stable, democratic South Africa. The fact that there are many of those young people sitting in this House today - perhaps not so young any more, but still as vociferous - bears testimony to that.

It is therefore reasonable for our youth to expect that such a stable political climate should bode well for their future. It is thus unfortunate that this sound political platform has not translated into social and economic opportunities. [Interjections.] It is with sadness that we must also realise that too many young South Africans have little to celebrate this Friday. The achievements of the past are beginning to wear thin, as many young people contemplate the future with far too many obstacles.

Whilst we must celebrate the fact that more young people have access to education, we must also accept that the quality of that education in many instances leaves much to be desired. We must also accept that particularly rural young people have to walk far too far to get to their schools - schools which have inadequate facilities, whose teachers are poorly qualified and in classrooms that are far too overcrowded. We must accept that those who overcome these hardships must still reckon with the fact that only one in ten of them will get a job or manage to further their studies.

We must celebrate the fact that our youth have a new political freedom, but we must also realise that this freedom is tempered by fear. We must realise that on the Cape Flats our youth continue to be lured into gangs of violence and drugs. We must realise that young female people in our country are being raped at schools and at tertiary institutions and face a wave of indiscriminate violence. We must also realise that too many young people themselves are becoming perpetrators of violence and crime.

We must celebrate the fact that young entrepreneurs are slowly starting to emerge. However, we need to accept that the rate of unemployment among the youth is far too high. We must also accept that conditions are not conducive for young people to start their own businesses and that only 30% of graduates will find employment within five years of their graduation. We must celebrate all that is good and positive, but we must not forget to accept these harsh realities. We must never accept these realities as an excuse for complacency. On the contrary, it must be by accepting these facts and understanding them better that we as a nation can find solutions and paths to a better, brighter future.

If we succeed as a nation, then the Government can no longer afford to shirk its responsibilities to the youth. The Youth Commission has failed. The Government must, as a matter of urgency, put in place far-reaching programmes to address the issues of unemployment, crime and HIV/Aids, amongst the youth. On 16 June the DP will celebrate the potential of our youth. We will celebrate the fact that the South African opportunities society is possible and within our grasp if we try. We will celebrate the courage of our youth in the past and congratulate them on their achievements, despite great difficulties.

But the DP will also not forget that there is much to be done. We will not forget that there are many for whom there is little cause to celebrate on 16 June. We will not forget that today some boy has walked many miles to get to his overcrowded classroom, that some girl has been raped and that too many others sit at home unemployed, feeling hopeless. On 16 June the DP will celebrate, knowing that our future is in good hands, because the future of the youth will determine the future of South Africa. The DP is determined to stand by our youth and to fight that good fight, to invest in the potential of those good young people of our country. [Interjections.] This is a fight we must and will win and for that we celebrate. [Applause.]

Rev K M ZONDI: Madam Speaker, the events of 16 June 1976 have gone down in the annals of history as some of the most momentous and significant events in our struggle to liberate South Africa. South Africa was never the same after the brave and heroic uprising of the students in Soweto, who could no longer put up with the unacceptable conditions under which they had to receive education. The date of 16 June 1976 was a tragic moment for black South Africa, as many young and peacefully demonstrating students were mown down by trigger-happy police of the apartheid state. They unleashed an unjustifiable amount of violence against some unarmed, innocent children.

One would have thought that if the Sharpeville incident in the 1960s had been a mistake, a repeat of that mistake would not be allowed to occur in Soweto in the mid-1970s. But it was not to be. So, it turned out that Sharpeville had not, after all, been a mistake, but a deliberate policy of state repression through the merciless unleashing of violence against anyone who dared to defy apartheid laws. This gave South Africa the notorious legacy of state repression which was maintained by violence at all costs. Indeed, scores of young people lost their lives and, thus, paid the supreme price for the eventual liberation of their country and its oppressed majority.

The enforcement of Bantu education, with compulsory instruction in Afrikaans, was the immediate cause of the uprisings. However, there was no shadow of doubt as to what the real cause of the problem was. The wider application of apartheid was at the real root of the problem. The young people who took to the streets of Soweto were part of the oppressed black majority, and, as such, were part of the black community which had for decades been at the receiving end of racial discrimination in its various forms, be it trusteeship, segregation, the native reserves policy, separate development, Bantu homelands, urban black councils or, simply, apartheid.

The date of 16 June 1976 has gone down in history as an event that changed the face of liberation politics in South Africa for good. It put young people in the forefront of the struggle for liberation, once and for all, in a manner that had not been seen before in this country. From then on, the participation of black youth in the struggle for liberation was heightened to unprecedented levels. The repressive state, on the other hand, stepped up its conscription of white youth to join the SA Defence Force to alarming proportions. Apartheid had thus succeeded in polarising blacks against whites, using the notion of the so-called ``swart gevaar’’, and thus the foundations of what later crystallised into a total onslaught strategy had been firmly laid.

The rest of what the black youth did in the struggle for liberation from 1976 onwards is now history. Maybe, within the limitations of time we have available for this debate, it will suffice to say that scores of young people skipped the country to join the then banned liberation movements; others remained within the country to join the underground forces and many more remained within the country to pursue the struggle in various ways, above board.

Young people became the very hallmark of the struggle to liberate and democratise this country. They shed their sweat, tears and blood in the quest to see their country free. Therefore, it is very fitting that this democratic Parliament of a liberated South Africa should set aside time to pay tribute to all sections of the youth of our country who, in various ways, have contributed to the struggle to free South Africa from the shackles of racism and apartheid.

Today we remember all those young people who laid down their lives in the pursuit of the struggle to liberate this country. We salute them! They paid the supreme price for freedom. We are where we are as a result of their contribution to a broad and multifaceted struggle for freedom. The least we can do for them is to keep them in our fond memories. The best monument we can build to their memory is to ensure that the values they fought for forever remain the hallmark of society in our liberated South Africa. The best tribute we can give to our youth today is to ensure that we tackle the many challenges they are still facing in our country that detract from their hopes and dreams.

We must face head-on the various challenges of poverty and deprivation, in which many of them live. The best tribute and gift we can give to our youth and to those who laid down their lives is to ensure that never again will our society produce the circumstances under which those young people who died in 1976 grew up. Never again should we allow our society to decline to such a level that it would be necessary for any young people to have to lay down their lives for freedom in our country. [Applause.]

Mr C M MORKEL: Madam Speaker, Minister in the Presidency and colleagues in youth development, yesterday I asked some colleagues from other parties who are members of the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons whether they would participate in today’s debate. Some of them said no and said that they were too old. I laughed because I beg to differ. Youth is not merely that category of citizenry between the ages of 16 and 35. Youth is much more. Youth is about the spirit of one’s soul, whether one is 16 or 60.

Discrimination, therefore, on the basis of age is a human rights abuse and cannot be tolerated. We are therefore all young and youthful as long as our spirit allows us to be. Similarly, we face varying degrees of challenges that remain relative to each other as individuals and as sectors of development.

Yesterday we heard the President allude to some of these challenges facing his administration. Mr Mbeki referred to the twin challenges of globalisation and localisation. After all the blood, sweat and tears shed by the generations of youth since 16 June 1976 have begun to dry, the President’s statement begs the question: Have the youth of South Africa become empowered enough to compete amongst the leaders in the global village or are we becoming the village idiots? Are the youth of our local communities empowered enough to deal with the challenges that will face the next generation of South Africans who are born out of communities still segregated by race and class? Ultimately, did we all, in our own way, struggle in vain? These are the questions that we need to ask ourselves.

Unfortunately, as a rule, the majority of youth from all South Africa’s varying communities are still not empowered enough, in terms of the demands of the global village, to participate fully in social, political and economic activities as citizens utilising the same opportunities. Similarly, as a rule, the majority of youth from previously disadvantaged communities are not empowered enough to participate on an equal footing utilising the same benefits bequeathed to the majority of youth from previously advantaged communities.

These being the rules, the youth from previously advantaged communities are nevertheless facing the challenge of becoming the disadvantaged of the future, unless employment rates grow rapidly enough to avoid the transformation process that takes from the rich to give to the poor. These being the rules, the youth from previously disadvantaged communities are nevertheless facing the challenge of remaining disadvantaged, unless the culture of hope that any transformation process would inspire is not confused with the culture of entitlement. Too much of the time, the typical Afro-pessimism, entrenched by the neocolonialism espoused by the likes of the DP earlier today, has limited the opportunities for South African and African youth who too often are portrayed as having a culture of entitlement. My brothers and sisters simply have unsatisfied basic needs.

Rightly or wrongly, the youth have a right to be angry - angry because of slow or no delivery. We all face another election, when it will, once again, be so easy to play the race card in short-sighted efforts to make political gains, at a time and period when our nation-building demands a much higher level of statehood. The low level of debate during the discussion of the President’s Vote yesterday was overshadowed by too much of a deliberate low liberal discourse. Sadly, it was ill-concealed racism. It did not even attempt to resemble political showmanship. It was pure gutter politics. Rightly, the youth should be angrier.

An HON MEMBER: Are you angry?

Mr C M MORKEL: I am angry!

An HON MEMBER: Good, be angry!

Mr C M MORKEL: Some leaders are leading some of our youth into the abyss, that is why I am angry. They are leading them into a place of exile from which it will be difficult to return, knowing that they have been denied such a wonderful opportunity to share the benefits of their privilege with so many young people who share the same biology, regardless of ideology. Similarly, some leaders skew the past to cloud, instead of inform, our vision of the future. It is short-sighted. [Interjections.] Thank you! Youth who follow these leaders will travel the world in search of greater material wealth, whilst yearning for the spiritual wealth that they can only receive by giving.

We always supported the principle of having a statutory youth structure to channel the energy of youth into an integrated growth and development strategy. But the National Youth Commission, unfortunately, is undermining the energy with administrative and managerial challenges, as confirmed by the Minister yesterday. The admission yesterday reiterates two consecutive years of warning by the Auditor-General on the financial statements of the commission.

We cannot be on course if the initiatives to facilitate youth development are continuously frustrated by a breakdown in the relationship between national, provincial and even local spheres of governance. The recent amendment to the National Youth Commission Act is an admission that the structure of the commission was far too bloated and that the relationship with provinces needed to be strengthened. Yet, a bloated structure needs more than the abolition of posts, especially when those posts are integral to the strengthening of the relationship between the commission, the provinces and local areas of governance. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr S J MOHAI: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and colleagues, I am speaking today on this debate about 16 June, a day declared by the ANC Government as national Youth Day. I am doing so in the fitting memory of young men and women who laid down their lives at the hands of apartheid security forces on that fateful day 24 years ago - 16 June 1976.

There is great cause for this House to celebrate the courageous and death- defying resilience of the successive generations of young people of this country to end white minority rule. The 1976 youth uprisings marked the maturation of revolutionary consciousness and an organisation of the generation of young people against the tyranny of apartheid. Indeed, it was a turning point when the youth declared: enough is enough.

Accordingly, the struggle of youth against the gutter apartheid education was inseparably leading to the struggle for the liberation of this country, led by the people’s movement, the ANC. Therefore, our quest to define and construct a new society that knows no colour, gender, religious and class prejudice, cannot be realised without the youth being the constituent ingredient of that construction.

The history of South Africa never remained the same after 16 June 1976. The reign of terror unleashed by the NP-led apartheid regime, together with their brothers who gave themselves different names, was met by the consolidation of popular resistance against the apartheid regime, marked by the mushrooming of student organisations and civic structures all over the country.

The education system for black children became a terrain of fierce contestation between the apartheid and democratic forces. The schools became war zones between security forces and the youth. Students had to learn under the barrel of the gun and many died at the hands of the apartheid security forces. Today, we are told by our colleagues in the opposition about the collapse of the education system, youth indulging in crime, lack of skills that pervade the lives of millions of youth in this country and massive unemployment, particularly relating to the youth. All they are saying is that the ANC-led Government lacks the vision to address the plight of young people in this country.

Any attempt to teach the ANC about how it should be the custodian of the aspirations of young people is tantamount to teaching the Pope about Catholicism. Fifteen years back, in 1985, the late former president of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo, at the height of the mass incarceration of the youth and the disruption of township schools by security forces, had this to say:

A nation that does not value its youth deserves no future.

Six years after the ascendance of the ANC to political office, our country has witnessed the creation of a single nonracial education system; free and compulsory education; the introduction of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme in the tertiary education sector; the transformation of the curriculum to provide for outcomes-based education, in response to the changing needs of society; the restructuring of further education and training, to address the backlogs in the education system; the restoration of the culture of learning in schools; and addressing the problem of overcrowding without refusing children access to schools. These are but a few highlights of the achievements of the ANC-led Government in the education sector in six years. These are achievements which the NP and its allies could not record in more than four decades.

There has never been a moment that the nation has had hope in its future as it has today. We concede that there are challenges, but every step that the ANC-led Government takes translates problems into solutions. With the renewal of the democratic mandate of the ANC by the overwhelming majority of this country on 2 June 1999, the people were reconfirming their confidence that, despite problems and hiccups, their future is secure under the leadership of the ANC.

In partnership with our people, we are not going to be distracted by the noises of the DP and its allies. [Interjections.] The manner of proceeding of the ANC in addressing the aspirations of the youth is not limited to the provision of services and opportunities to a passive youth populace: The ANC-led Government has created mechanisms to integrate the youth in the overall process of governance through, amongst others, the creation of the National Youth Commission, which by its very nature is the voice of the youth in shaping the future of this country.

There is no doubt that in the history of this country, it is only the ANC that has accorded the youth a rightful place in society. The very considerable proportion of the youth within the ANC representatives in this Chamber and other legislatures is one touchstone of the ANC’s embodiment of the youth’s aspirations. This is not by accident, but a conscious strategy to build a corps of future leaders who will carry on the legacy of not being intimidated by the complex challenges of constructing a new society.

In conclusion, allow me to dedicate my speech to Comrade Solomon Mahlangu, Siphiwe Mthimkhulu, Sipho Muzi, Hector Petersen, and many others who were deprived of the opportunity of being part of building this new South Africa. To them I say that there is no better and more fitting way of honouring them than using Parliament as a popular tribute of our people to bring about a better life for all. We are on course. [Applause.]

Ms O N MNDENDE: Chairperson, we salute our young heroes who, on 16 June 1976, sacrificed themselves and stood up against the unjust and cruel actions of the apartheid government. The date of 16 June should have a dual purpose whereby all South Africans, irrespective of colour, give respect to and honour the youth and those fallen heroes whose innocent blood was spilt by the inhuman powers of the past government. That government killed innocent children who were able to separate good food from poison, the poison being Bantu education.

We salute those heroes who made it possible that today there should be no discrimination: we all know that there was discrimination even in the use of toilets. Before getting into a toilet, one had to look for a sign indicating which race was to use it, because it would be written either slegs blankes'' orNie-blankes’’, which meant Whites only'' orNon- whites’’. Today we have an education system that caters for all and not an education system that aims at creating an identity crisis and confusion in certain racial groups.

June 16 should also be the day when those who were involved in those atrocities of killing innocent children, because one language was made more powerful than the indigenous languages of the people, should be reminded that their system caused us to lose our loved ones. The name of Hector Petersen should be a constant reminder that some souls should still have been alive today. To those who were involved, 16 June should be the day of appeasement and the day on which they take a vow that never again will there be discrimination.

Bekumele ukuba bathi: Uxolo, siyazisola. Asinqweneli ukuba inkohlakalo enje ingaze iphinde ibe khona eluntwini jikelele.'' [They were supposed to be saying:Sorry, we accept the blame. We do not wish to have such cruelty again in society at large.’’]

On that historic day the South African youth who loved their country, and who formed the majority of the underprivileged, stood up and said:

``Unotshe! Asisokuze siyamkele into yokuba sithi sihleli sinikwa ixibhiya kakade, ixibhiya yemfundo ekuthiwa yiBantu Education, siphinde sinyanzelwe ngolwimi lwesiBhulu, lwimi olo ilolwabacinezeli. Ngaphezulu, akukho nento esinokuthi siyenze xa sinokuthi siphume siye kuphangela ngaphandle, ngaphandle kokuphangelela oobaas.’’ (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Over our dead bodies! We will never accept, over and above the poor quality of education called Bantu education, to have Afrikaans, the language of the oppressor, imposed on us. In addition there is nothing we can do with it, if we go out to work outside, other than to work for the `baas’.]

It is also strange that, today, in our new democracy in which there are 11 official languages, including Afrikaans, there are still those who complain about Afrikaans not getting the recognition that they want. It clearly shows that those who need a volkstaat do not regret anything or that their guilty conscience is dead. Because, to them, Afrikaans should still be superior.

Ifika ibe ngumnqa ke kuthi into yokuba aba bantu bafuna ukuba sibuyele kundalashe ibe ngabo nabakhalazela ukungalingani, ngelo xesha iilwimi zazingalingani kwangaphambili. Namhlanje iilwini ziyalingana. Xa sukuba sicula uNkosi sikelela iAfrika, iAfrika leyo edibanisa zonke izizwe, edibanisa zonke iilwimi, ubani ufumanisa into yokuba kwa aba bantu abafuni kumcula uNkosi sikelela iAfrika. Into abayiculayo ngu`Die Stem’ yedwa. Ingaba ke bethu le mini ithetha ntoni kubo namhlanje?

Lilonke, uRhulumente kufuneka asebenzise imali ukuze abumbe ulutsha oluza kuthi luzingce ngengomso lalo, oluza kuthi ludibane, lube yinto enye, lukwazi ukwakha uMzantsi Afrika omtsha, lukwazi nokuphuhlisa.

Okokugqibela, into endiyicelayo kuRhulumente yeyokuba kufuneka sithi namhlanje siyazi into yokuba ulutsha lwasezilalini nalo luyangcamla kuyo le nto. [Laphela ixesha.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[It surprises us that the people who want us to return to the old order are the ones who are complaining about the unequal status of languages. Yet previously languages did not have equal status. Today languages do have equal status. When we sing Nkosi sikelel’ iAfrika, the Africa that unites all nations, that combines all languages, one finds that these very people do not want to sing Nkosi sikelel’ iAfrika. What they sing is `Die Stem’ only. I wonder then what this day means to them.

On the whole the Government must use the money to develop young people who will be proud of their future, who are going to be united, become one, in order to build a new South Africa and advance development.

Lastly, what I ask of the Government is that today we must say that we know that the youth from the rural areas, too, are having a taste of this. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, the ACDP supports the commemoration of 16 June 1976 as a very important day. I, myself, have recollections of that day, even though I was not sure of what was going on. But I knew that there was a problem with Afrikaans and the Boers. A friend of mine, Xolile Musi I recall, was the first victim in Langa. We could not bury him, because when we went to bury him next to the Langa station, the police came and fired tear-gas at us; and even his family could not participate in his burial. I recall that his friends from Harlem Boys’ boxing club were the only people who were able to bury him. It was a very sad occasion.

Having said this, I want to appeal to the Minister, whom I understand is involved with policy in the President’s Office, that I, personally, feel that there is a vacuum in terms of guidelines for the behaviour of the youth. I say this because, when I was at UWC between 1989 and 1994, we never had a single examination disruption, despite the fact that that institution was at the forefront of the liberation struggle. The reason for that was the able leadership, at that time, of the UDF in the Western Cape. Whenever there were attempted disruptions at UWC, they would come and tell the students that part of the struggle was education. That is the message that the youth of today do not understand, because they were babies at that time. They do not have an idea of what happened. And so, I feel that there is a vacuum in that regard.

Therefore, I think that the Ministry has to examine all the laws that are passed, even by this House, and ask itself what would be the possible negative impact on the youth of whatever law is passed in this House. For example, there are already laws that have impacted negatively on the youth. Members know that there are a host of them that the ACDP is against. Those are laws that relate to the relegation of Christian religious tradition to nothing. We need to bring back that culture in schools as well, because religion has been completely removed from schools. As a result there is a vacuum of discipline. I believe that these are the issues that we need to address.

Having said so, I think this is a very important day that we must continue to commemorate. [Applause.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, Jeugdag gaan oor die jeug en die jeug van enige land is die toekoms van daardie land, en daarom is dit ook belangrik om te kyk na die jeug om ‘n voorspelling te kan maak oor hoe die toekoms van daardie land gaan lyk. Daarom vind ek dit tog jammer dat die klem in hierdie debat baie meer op die verlede val as op die toekoms. Ek sê nie dat ‘n mens die verlede kan vergeet nie, of dat ‘n mens nie daaruit moet leer nie, maar ek meen die balans moet gehou word. Ons behoort meer oor die toekoms te praat. Ek glo dat enige jeug sonder drome en sonder dissipline geen toekoms het nie. Dit geld vir alle lande. ‘n Mens kan maar gaan kyk waar jy ookal deur die wêreld reis. Dissipline en drome is wat van die jeug ‘n sukses maak.

As ek by die Afrikaanse jeug kom, dan sien ek hulle worstel tans met presies wat hulle rol is en wat hulle plek vorentoe in Suid-Afrika is. Hulle probeer bepaal waar hulle moet inpas. Ek is jammer om te sê die boodskap wat hulle kry, is dat daar nie op die oomblik plek vir hulle is om in die toekoms in te pas nie. Al wat hulle van 1976 weet, is wat hulle in die geskiedenisboeke leer. Agb lede moet hulle somme gaan maak om te gaan kyk; die jongmense wat in 1985 tot 1986 gebore is, gaan die kiesers wees wat 18 jaar oud is in 2004. Ons werk met ‘n totaal nuwe geslag wat klaar die goed waaroor ons praat as verlede ervaar. Hulle vra: Waarom is regstellende optrede ook tans op ons van toepassing?'' Dan word daar verduidelik:Ja, maar julle is ook bevoordeel,’’ en so meer. Dan vra hulle: Gaan regstellende aksie vir ewig van toepassing wees of is daar 'n afsnydatum waarná ons gelyk kan meeding?'' Dan sê minister Kader Asmal by die RGN dat daar geen afsnydatum moet wees nie. Dit moet onbeperk voortgaan. Dan sê die Afrikanerjeug:Watter droom is daar vir my verder in hierdie land, as ek hom nie kan kry daarmee saam nie?’’ Dieselfde Minister sê in Alexandra die volgende. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, Youth Day is about the youth and any country’s youth is the future of that country, which is why it is important to look at the youth in order to predict what the future of that country is going to be like. That is why I am sorry that the emphasis in this debate is much more on the past than on the future. I am not saying that one can forget about the past, or that one should not learn from it, but I feel that a balance must be struck. We should talk more about the future. I believe that any youth without dreams and without discipline will have no future. This applies to all countries. One only has to take a look wherever one travels through the world. Discipline and dreams are the elements that make a success of the youth.

When it comes to the Afrikaans youth, I see that they are at present struggling with precisely what their role and their place in South Africa will be in the future. They are trying to determine where they must fit in. I am sorry to say that the message they are receiving is that right now there is no room for them to tie in with the future. Whatever they know about 1976 is what they have learnt from the history books. Hon members must do a few calculations to understand; the young people who were born in 1985 and 1986 will be voters who are 18 years old in 2004. We are dealing with a totally new generation which already experiences the issues that we are discussing as the past. They are asking:Why does affirmative action also apply to us right now?'' The explanation then comes:Yes, but you were also advantaged,’’ and so on. They then ask:Will affirmative action apply forever or is there a cutoff date after which we can compete as equals?'' Then Minister Kader Asmal said at the HSRC that there should not be a cutoff date. It must carry on indefinitely. The Afrikaner youth are now saying:What dreams are there left for me in this country, if I cannot have them along with it?’’

The same Minister said the following in Alexandra.]

This he said to the black youth, and members know what happened in Alex. He said: ``We are no longer slaves, we have to revolt and make use of all instruments of democracy to achieve our goals.’’ Then he spoke on discipline. And that is the problem, as far as I can see, on the other side

• discipline from that side with our dreams on the other side.

Die geslag van 1976 het ons ``die verlore geslag’’ genoem. Dit is ‘n hartseernaam. Kom ons waak daarteen sodat ons nie weer begin om ‘n verlore geslag aan beide kante, as ‘n mens dan so wil praat, te skep in hierdie stadium nie. Dan is daar nie drome vir hulle nie. Dan is daar nie dissipline vir hulle nie. Dan is daar nie ‘n toekoms vir Suid-Afrika wat hulle betref nie. Kom ek sluit af uit die Bybel. Ek wil tog Efesiërs 6:1 vir agb lede aanhaal, wat lui:

Kinders, wees as gelowiges aan julle ouers gehoorsaam, want dit is wat die wet van God vereis.

Dissipline, dus. En Efesiërs 6:4:

Vaders, moenie julle kinders so behandel dat hulle opstandig word nie, maar maak hulle groot met tug en vermaning soos die Here dit wil.

Kom ons hoop ons kry die resep reg en met ‘n gesonde jeug gaan ons die toekoms binne, anders is daar nie vir een van ons ‘n toekoms nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [We called the 1974 generation the ``lost generation’’. That is a sad name. Let us at this stage guard against creating another lost generation on both sides, if I may put it like that, because then there will be no dreams for them, there will be no discipline for them, and there will be no future in South Africa as far as they are concerned. I want to conclude by quoting from the Bible. I would like to quote Ephesians 6:1 to hon members, which reads:

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Discipline, in other words. And Ephesians 6:4:

And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

Let us hope we can succeed with the recipe and enter the future with a sound youth, otherwise there will not be a future for any of us.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Speaker, I align myself with the sentiments expressed by the Minister on the approach to 16 June, that it should be a national event and that we should therefore approach it in unison.

The youth of our country took to the streets to fight against the apartheid government’s implementation of the Bantu Education Act. This Act meant that the majority of South Africans were provided with an inferior education that would not enable them to rise above certain forms of labour. Hundreds of people were killed in the ensuing clashes with the police.

The youth and leadership involved in the 1976 riots had a vision to liberate South Africa and, indeed, today, we are able to celebrate their achievements. We owe it to our fallen young heroes and heroines to take this process forward by restoring the culture of teaching and learning, obedience to the authorities and respect for our elders in building our communities.

Youth were motivated by a strong desire to break down the walls of oppression and to build a new nation completely different to the existing, unjust system. The role youth played in the democratisation of South Africa cannot be underestimated. They fought for quality education and a better life, and if their immediate expectations are not realised, there exists a real threat to every institution they fought for, and the institutions are at risk of being questioned as not having been responsive to their needs.

As leaders, we should endeavour to provide things which will make life meaningful to them by, amongst others, providing recreational facilities and educational opportunities. Furthermore, the immediate challenge facing today’s youth is to carry forward the spirit of togetherness in building our communities and in advancing youth programmes of action; and to continue to fight, this time through education, in order to better their lives.

The role the youth played in the democratisation process is acknowledged and recognised. They now have the responsibility to rebuild our highly polarised society into a just society where every citizen, young and old, poor and rich, and urban and rural can live peacefully in a society free from hunger, slavery of some sort, illiteracy, disease, crime and human hatred.

In most cases, the way our youth behave leaves much to be desired. Lack of respect for elders, defiance of authority and drunkenness in public are some of the things that disgrace us as a nation. But there are youth who serve as role models to our youth, and we urge them to continue to be a beacon of hope to those youth who have not lost hope. [Time expired.]

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Madam Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity which comes courtesy of the youth of the ANC.

I have said before in this House that South Africa has a youth to be proud of. When their country needed them most, they responded en masse, as true patriots, to the clarion call to push the frontiers of apartheid to its limits. In the process, they paid the supreme price.

The Soweto Students Congress was an organisational formation of students. There were two representatives from each school. The two representatives were representing the interests of those schools in that particular meeting of the council of the SRCs. We also had another section of the students who had left the country, trained and come back. The problem was that, as the SRC, we could not work jointly with those students, because they already were MK cadres and we, as students, had to stick to issues of students. The most important thing was that, as we planned our own campaigns as students, we would, for instance, institute a campaign for parents to support us and not go to work. This armed wing was led by Paul Langa. Incidentally, he served 20 years on Robben Island for the activities of what we called ``the suicide squad’’ at that time.

The students organised protests, firstly against Afrikaans as a medium of instruction and, secondly, against Bantu education in general as a discriminatory school system. The students at that time had their own council meetings, and they were able to take decisions which bound them as a student body. However, the aims and objectives of the students at that point in time were also to fight for their demands for free and compulsory education, one education department for the whole of South Africa, and the abolition of apartheid as a discriminatory political system.

The demand for the release of political prisoners and the unbanning of organisations was yet another issue. This campaign that began in Soweto was carried through the length and breadth of the country, across all black townships. The death toll of 500 to 600 casualties during the unrest is still under dispute, bearing in mind that many young people disappeared without trace.

In 1976 I attended the funeral of Jackie Malebane at Doornkop cemetery in Soweto. He was a student at Turfloop University and died after being pushed from the four-storey building of the campus by the police. As we entered the cemetery, singing and chanting, the riot squad faced us with rifles ready. Without any provocation, they suddenly opened fire. A female student in front of me was hit in the chest. As she fell backwards, she landed on my feet. There was a gaping wound in her chest. She gasped for breath. Blood was oozing from her mouth, her nose and her ears. Her body was twitching as she kicked and kicked. Her eyes were wide open. As she finally lay still, I came to my senses and I started to run. With the sound of bullets whistling past my head, I scaled a two-metre wall and landed, unscathed, on the other side. To this day I do not know how I did it.

I will never forget the look in those eyes. They were probably saying something to me and to hon members. Probably what they were asking was: ``Was it all in vain?’’ I have a response to the question in those eyes, 24 years later. This is the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. This is what we were fighting for. [Applause.] This is a copy of the South African Schools Act that we passed in 1996. This is what we were fighting for. [Applause.]

On behalf of the generation of 1976 I wish to say the following to the students and youth of today. The struggle for a better and progressive education system has been fought and won. Their deaths and the sacrifices they made have led to us attaining our freedom. The Student Representative Councils and other rights that they fought for, for which they went to prison and received banning orders, are now entrenched in our Constitution and in the South African Schools Act. They should unleash their talents and fly high.

Therefore, our concept of a student leader and hero are these young people who will ensure that our education system produces engineers, economists, medical scientists, who will discover the Aids vaccine, doctors, lawyers, political revolutionaries, who will defend our young democracy and build a South Africa that can stand alongside other great nations.

We appeal in particular to the Minister of Safety and Security, Comrade Steve Tshwete, and the Minister of Justice, Comrade Penuell Maduna, that we should assure our youth today that never again will they be subjected to detention without trial, to torture in detention and to being targets for trigger-happy police to practise on. In short, never again should our beautiful country be at war with itself. [Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the PAC of Azania salutes all the youth of our country on this 24th anniversary of the Soweto uprising. This uprising was extraordinary. It involved the youth of this country, inspired by the lofty ideas of Black Consciousness and Africanism, in which the real soul of the African finds solace and true identity. Steve Biko and others, like Onkgopotse Tiro, provided critical leadership to this unparalleled uprising in the world by school children.

The other leader who played a role in the Soweto uprising was Zephania Mothopeng, who was sentenced to 30 years’ imprisonment by the apartheid regime for this uprising. Sentencing this PAC leader in a secret trial in Bethal, Justice Curlewis said:

You, Mothopeng, acted to sow seeds of anarchy and revolution. The riots you engineered and predicted eventually took place in Soweto on June 16 and Kagiso the next day.

The youth of this country were protesting against a barbaric education system, which was intended to destroy Africans psychologically and subordinate them to an inferior position in human society.

Of course, it is a shame that on this day some young people who abandoned their education to swell the ranks of the armed struggle for liberation are sitting in the jails of South Africa as criminals, because the African struggle has been criminalised through the so-called TRC. The youth of this country must now be offered the opportunity of rising to the stars. The best must be invested in the African youth. No young person should fail to acquire an education merely because he or she cannot afford it. We need a government which will give free education for 20 years to all students in universities and technikons whose parents are poor.

The PAC wants the youth of this country to be equipped with knowledge that will enable them to shoulder the tremendous task of rebuilding the broken walls of Africa and its destroyed shrines. Our youth must receive education which enables them to be in charge of their cultural and psychological direction. This education must reinforce the Afrocentric view of the world and preserve African epistemology. Education is not for personal aggrandisement or comfort. [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, 16 June 1976 proves to us that South Africa was blessed with young people whose powerful souls were guilty of a crime under the apartheid regime and that crime was a passion for freedom.

The intention of the innocent, harmless march was to have a mass gathering of Soweto pupils at Orlando Stadium to express the battle against the system of inferior education and unjust political practice. It took ordinary people on an extraordinary day to sacrifice their lives to rewrite history for future generations in South Africa. Not a single student had a preconceived idea that the white police establishment would play a happy war game against unarmed school children by firing live ammunition, with the intention to kill. The determination of the white government to account for its savage political stance by means of the bullet, did not destroy the passion of the youth to persevere in order to accomplish the virtue of democracy. June 16 gave birth to the violent reaction against black councillors and policemen who refused to resign from their jobs.

The Soweto Students’ Representative Council was spontaneously elected as the main voice to represent most townships. The boycotting of exams became the norm in the majority of schools for approximately two decades. This noble, self-sacrificing, political action was against those who believed that half a loaf is better than no bread at all. They were, in fact, advocating that an inferior system of education was better than none at all. This resulted in further self-destruction which is obviously still evident in the new, democratic South Africa. The side effects are the millions of historically disadvantaged youth who are still illiterate and unemployed. For most, the last resort is crime.

The self-respecting action against the forceful implementation of the oppressors’ language, Afrikaans, was, in essence, correct. The lost generation - the youth with an historical conscience - had the guts and integrity to set the record straight for the world. They showed that political, social and economic control can never be achieved without mental control. The spiteful efforts to control the African culture and language in order to destroy our self-determination was an unconditional failure. The African languages are not only powerful tools for communication, but they systematically reinforce the innate desire to learn and to know, and they encourage the internalisation of behaviour which can be expressed in the development of technology and science. Undoubtedly, the youth who were part of the freedom struggle proved to us that culture and language are essential ingredients … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, ek wil op ‘n persoonlike noot begin. Die hoogtepunt in my bediening as predikant oor ‘n tydperk van 22 jaar was ongetwyfeld toe ek op my 45ste verjaardag vyf jaar gelede my eerste kleinkind, klein Caspertjie, kon doop. By dié geleentheid was die teks uit Psalm 90, ‘n gebed van Moses in daardie moeilike tyd in die woestyn. Hy sluit die psalm af met die gebed: ``Laat U heerlikheid wees oor ons kinders.’’ Die plek van ons kinders was daardie tyd reeds so belangrik vir almal van ons.

Daarom wil ek vandag met agb lede praat - en nie die debat verpolitiseer soos vandag hier gebeur het nie - oor die reg om kind te wees. Het ons kinders nog werklik die reg om kind te wees? Wat behels dit? Dit behels ‘n sorgvrye bestaan as kind in ‘n veilige omgewing. Een van die profete bid ook dat ons kinders weer op die pleine moet kan speel in veiligheid en sorgvryheid. Ons trek ons kinders te veel in die grootmense se stryd en vetes en struggles in.

Te veel van die toesprake vandag gaan ook daaroor; ‘n politieke debat oor die struggle, en nie ‘n debat oor kindwees en ons jeug nie. Moet die saak nie bietjie omgekeer word nie, want ons vergeet van kindwees. ‘n Kind het die reg op geleenthede, op opvoeding en onderwys en oop geleenthede. Ek wil vir agb lede sê dat die Afrikanerjeug wat niks van apartheid weet nie, nie verstaan waarom hulle nog steeds gestraf moet word nie.

‘n Kind het die reg op ‘n identiteit, op kultuur en godsdiens en taaloordrag van sy ouerhuis, ook in die skool waarheen hy gestuur word, want hy kom nie as vreemdeling of wêreldburger in hierdie wêreld aan nie. Dit is baie belangrik dat ‘n kind die reg het op twee ouers wat bymekaar bly in die huwelik. Hoeveel gebroke gesinne is daar nie vandag in Suid- Afrika nie? Grootmense los mekaar vir elke bakatel en die kinders ly daaronder. Die kind het die reg op dissipline. ‘n Ongedissiplineerde jeug is ‘n verwilderde en ontredderde jeug. Die rankplant het die reg op die rankstok waarteen hy gevorm kan word. Daarom haal ek ook Psalm 144 aan: ``Laat ons seuns wees soos plante wat opgekweek is in hul jeug.’’

In die lig hiervan wil ek vandag ‘n beroep doen - dit mag omstrede wees - dat Jeugdag in Suid-Afrika op ‘n ander dag as 16 Junie gevier sal word. Die datum 16 Junie spreek van opstand en rebellie. Dit spreek van die jeug wat ons agendas moet vervul en het ‘n verdelende karakter. Kom ons kyk eerder na ‘n dag waarop al die jeug van Suid-Afrika saamgesnoer kan word sonder die verdelende faktore van die hede en sonder stryd. Kom ons gee aan ons kinders weer die reg om kínd te wees. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, I would like to begin on a personal note. The highlight in my service as a minister over a period of 22 years was undoubtedly when, on my 45th birthday five years ago, I could christen my first grandchild, little Casper. On this occasion the text was from Psalm 90, a prayer by Moses in those difficult times in the desert. He concludes the psalm with the prayer: ``May Your splendour be upon our children.’’ Our children’s place was then already so important to all of us.

For that reason I would like to speak to hon members today - and not politicise the debate as has happened here today - about the right to be a child. Do our children really still have the right to be children? What does this entail? It entails a carefree existence as a child in a safe environment. One of the prophets also prayed that our children should once again be able to play in the fields in safety and carefreeness. We involve our children too much in adults’ battles and feuds and struggles.

Too many of the speeches today also dealt with this; a political debate about the struggle and not a debate on being a child and our youth. Should the matter not be reversed somewhat, because we forget about being a child. A child has the right to opportunities, to education and training and open opportunities. I want to tell hon members that the Afrikaner youth who know nothing about apartheid do not understand why they should still be punished.

A child has the right to an identity, to culture and religion and language transfer from his parents’ home, as well as in the school to which he is sent, because he does not enter this world as a stranger or a citizen of the world. It is very important that a child has the right to two parents who remain together in marriage. How many broken families are there in South Africa today? Adults leave one another over the smallest things and the children suffer as a result. A child has the right to discipline. An undisciplined youth is a wild and damaged youth. The vine is entitled to the support against which it can grow. I therefore also quote from Psalm 144: ``Then our sons in their youth will be like well-nurtured plants.’’

In the light of this I would like to make an appeal today - it may be controversial - that Youth Day in South Africa be celebrated on a day other than 16 June. The date 16 June denotes revolt and rebellion. It refers to the youth who must fulfil our agendas and has a divisive character. Let us rather look at a day on which all the youth of South Africa can be drawn together without the divisive factors of the present and without struggle. Let us return to our children the right once again to be children. [Time expired.]]

Mr N J CLELLAND: Madam Speaker, this Friday, 16 June, we will commemorate the youth of our country who stood up against the brutal massacre and defied police bullets in a sustained campaign against oppression, exploitation and racial humiliation. Their very real foe was the apartheid state and a system that denied them any hope of a normal life. They took to the streets in a protest that today is widely recognised as one of the first turning points in the fight to end apartheid. Youth Day is an opportunity for all of us to pay tribute to the heroic and selfless role that the youth of this country played in securing freedom, democracy and justice.

It is great to celebrate the achievements of the youth of the past; but, as Government, we have another function to perform and that is to address the issues of the youth of today and the youth of tomorrow. The challenges they face are very different from those of 1976. Aids and poverty are central challenges which threaten the future of our youth. Even Minister Skweyiya has warned, and I quote: ``South Africa is sitting on a time bomb of poverty and social disintegration.’’

Here are the facts. Every single day 1 700 South Africans, mostly young South Africans, become infected with HIV - 1 700! A million jobs have been lost since 1994 and employment in the formal sector of the economy is now down to a level on a par with that of the late 1970s. That is an ironic and terrible linkage to the youth of 1976. The future facing our youth looks bleak.

Our Government’s attitude in addressing some of the central challenges facing the youth varies from the ineffectual to the bizarre, the most obvious of which is the presidential attitude and approach towards Aids that creates controversy, ridicule and scepticism. We also have an expensive, toothless and largely ineffectual Youth Commission tasked to deal with youth development and transformation, and, of course - with respect - an hon Minister in the Presidency tasked with youth matters who has achieved nothing in terms of improving the plight of our youth during his first year in office. Frankly, the youth of our country deserve more than an ineffective ragbag of commissions, Ministries, bizarre strategies and an annual holiday. Government must get real. The DP believes that the only way in which poverty and unemployment can be reduced in a substantial and sustainable way in South Africa is for South Africa to have a growth rate of 6% or more per year. [Interjections.] This can be achieved, but it requires of Government a resolve, which so far it has lacked, to tackle thorny issues such as faster privatisation, greater labour market flexibility and a more efficient Public Service. If the hon the Minister in the Presidency wants to play a meaningful role in the eradication of poverty and the upliftment of our youth, he should champion this cause and use his influence to effect this kind of consequential change.

With regard to Aids and HIV, the Government must start implementing effective and efficient strategies based on careful thought and planning. Financial resources must be used to implement a programmed, response-based plan to tackle Aids and HIV on three different levels. The first level is an education programme that informs people of the transmission of Aids and demystifies the myths surrounding the disease.

The second level is a counselling and treatment programme aimed at destigmatising HIV/Aids testing and providing pre- and post-HIV test counselling. It also incorporates treatment initiatives, including distribution of antiretroviral drugs, condoms and any other treatment that will prevent an infection. On the third level of the fight against Aids, there should be a nondiscrimination programme that will be aimed at sensitising society to the issues of Aids/HIV.

It is time to take decisive action against the challenges that face the youth today, which are poverty and HIV/Aids. This is the new struggle. It is different from the struggle of 1976, but the message then, from Oliver Tambo to the youth, is just as valid now, and I quote:

There can be no going back. The offensive must be broadened, deepened and generalised to encompass the whole country and involve every section of our people.

[Applause.]

Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, the duration of tyranny is as long as the endurance of the oppressed. When the oppressed stand up and say no more, it is the beginning of the end of the oppressor. Although we had been under the heel of racist white settler colonialism for 342 years, we never, as a people, gave up. June 16, 1976, is a manifestation of that heroic spirit of our people. The events of 16 June 1976 gave our struggle for liberation a mighty push forward. Although more than 600 of us were killed by the regime, Steve Biko murdered in prison, thousands of young people, in particular, imprisoned, 17 black consciousness organisations banned and lots of property destroyed, the impetus given to the struggle could not be reversed. As a result of those events, the political consciousness of our people reached unprecedented levels. The ranks of the liberation movements, both inside and outside the country, were swelled by patriots eager to give their all.

As we prepare to commemorate this important day in the history of our country, some of us are concerned about the amount of money we are spending on it. We are not a rich country and our needs are enormous. In a country where millions live in mekhukhu [shacks]; where school children sit on the cement floor for lack of desks and others learn under trees; where the Minister of Education is considering discontinuing the free supply of stationery and textbooks for lack of money; where patients in public hospitals sleep on the floor with their own blankets, because of the lack of linen and beds in those hospitals, it seems inappropriate to spend R20 million on just one commemoration.

Many of us know that we have in the past commemorated these important days without spending too much money. Can Comrade Minister Pahad tell us why we have to spend so much money? Do we think that if there is no promise of food, drink and dancing to the music of the likes of Boom Shaka, the people might not come? What about the fact that some of us in this House have, rightly so, been criticising students on campuses for spending too much money on freshers’ balls, when their families and the institutions they are at are so poor? Will they not say that they are taking a cue from the state? Will they not tap into the wisdom of Patrick Mphephu of Venda Bantustan fame and say: If the state did it, why can’t we do it? [Laughter.]

May the memory of our gallant 1976 patriots direct all of us to work hard for our country, for our people, and may we all be prepared to make sacrifices for the upliftment of our people. [Applause.]

Mr K M N GIGABA: Madam Speaker, the 24th anniversary of the 1976 uprising is, once more, upon us. Yet again, our national memory is drawn towards the youth that time and again had to pay a high price for freedom. Our attention is drawn to the monumental sacrifices that they had to make in the firm belief, knowledge and conviction that we had a glorious future to fight for. This day stands as a watershed between liberty and bondage in our country, in our region and in our continent.

Exactly 24 years ago, the evil regime of apartheid savagely maimed our youth in answer to their legitimate demand for freedom and quality education. In maiming the youth, arresting their leaders and killing others, such as Hector Petersen and Steve Biko in 1977, while forcing others to exile, the regime thought it would permanently silence the youth into submission. However, we continuously rose in revolt against this criminal system and fought it relentlessly to its demise. We organised ourselves into mass youth organisations, in anticipation and preparation for the titanic battles ahead.

The people of South Africa, in their response to this callous challenge from the apartheid authorities, resorted to all forms of struggle to defend the lives of their children and youth and their right to be free. The international community was mobilised like never before. It isolated the apartheid regime and imposed sanctions against it, demanding freedom for the people of South Africa. Everywhere in South Africa and abroad one common message echoed: Down with apartheid; away with fascism; freedom for the people of South Africa.

Relentlessly, since that fateful day, the youth rebelled against and refused to be governed by a regime we had not elected. Determined that this struggle should result in victory, we took the responsibility for fighting on with courage and the tenacity characteristic of the stoicism displayed by our forebears during the anticolonial wars.

For this, we became the pre-eminent targets of the apartheid forces of repression. The full force of repression was unleashed against us in an endeavour to break us materially and spiritually. But even the persistent force of the apartheid forces could not achieve this goal. We kept our heads high and held aloft the banner of freedom, fighting resiliently in the full believe and conviction that victory was in sight. It makes sense, therefore, that the nation should salute the youth of 1976, and all the generations of youth that have ensured that apartheid was as shortlived as its founders were shortsighted. By forever rising in favour of freedom and justice, we ensured that their maniacal dreams were turned into nightmares. Even today, apartheid stands condemned in front of all our people, and the serial murderers who sustained this system are still haunted by their deeds.

While the date of 16 June appeared in form only as a rejection of the imposition of Afrikaans as a language of instruction in African schools, it was, in essence, a crystallisation of the discontent that had been building up in African communities, as a consequence of the socioeconomic effects of apartheid. All that was needed was a single spark that would turn the apartheid edifice into an uncontrollable conflagration.

By these actions, we conducted ourselves - and we must continue to conduct ourselves - in a manner that confirmed that youth interests are inseparable from the interests of our people as a whole. As a result of the victory of our struggle, we have arrived at a point where we, as a people, can commence with our task of a continental renaissance. The youth must play a leading part in the achievement of this goal.

If the saying is true that we must think globally and act locally, then we should, in every locality, act to contribute to the achievement of the objectives of the African century. By our local actions - in fighting crime, learning intensively, working very hard, fighting HIV/Aids, striving for excellence, embarking on community service, and in everything else that we do - we will be laying a very strong foundation for our continental renaissance.

All of us must know that the African renaissance will be a result of local actions everywhere, the totality of which will lead to the common reconstruction and development of our continent as a whole. Transcending our local areas, we must demonstrate our solidarity with the youth of other African countries such as Angola, which is today plagued by wars, dictatorships, terrorist violence, floods, drought and poverty.

We have witnessed the savagery of the wars and the lack of democracy in many countries. We have watched in horror as our fellow African youth have been maimed in wars. We have come to appreciate the principal necessity for democracy and elections. We should, therefore, as South African youth, not demean our rights to vote by abstaining from participation in democratic elections in our country. Accordingly, we urge the youth of South Africa to go out and register to vote in the local government elections, and when that day comes, to vote. Surely, we would also be irresponsible and negligent if we gave the youth a blank cheque - they must vote ANC! [Applause.]

We must condemn the recruitment of children to fight wars, and reject the absurd notion of child soldiers. Through this, we must promote the culture of solidarity and oneness with our fellow African youth and fight xenophobia everywhere - in South Africa, Europe or the Americas. As the current generation of the African youth, we must act according to the challenges of this epoch, indeed, to earn ourselves the accolade of being called the renaissance generation.

As we commence this African century, so should we work hard to ensure that it also becomes a century during which the problem of the colour line, namely racism, is resolved. June 16, 1976, was produced by this very refusal of the South African youth to accept that our people should continue to be defined by race, colour or ethnic group. Even at the height of racism in our country, we rejected the notion that we should posit black racism as an alternative to white supremacy. Instead, we put forward the demand for a nonracial and nonsexist South Africa, insisting that this new society we were creating be united in its diversity. [Applause.]

Towards this effort, we must take drastic steps to promote dialogue, understanding and co-operation between the South African youth. Our young white compatriots must know the truth that it is not democracy and a nonracial society that threaten their future, but rather racism that continues to pose a dire threat to our common survival as a nation. [Applause.]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank all the speakers for participating in this debate. First of all, I would like to turn to the hon member Pieter Mulder. He knows that for a long time now I have been trying to understand why he keeps on saying that Afrikaners and the Afrikaner youth cannot fit into the new South Africa, when for the first time in their lives, they have an environment in which to grow up free from hatred. It is an environment in which they can look people in the eye in such a way that they can see them as human beings.

We are now in a position which is better than what we have ever been in before in the history of this country. [Applause.] I would like to say to Pieter Mulder that we will, however, continue with our discussion. I would ask him also to have discussions with the ANC Youth League, and to let us see how we can solve the problem, if there is a problem.

I want to turn to the two speakers from the DP. I want to say that if it were not for my great respect for this wonderful institution, I really would treat with contempt the way they treat with contempt debates in this Parliament. One of the great failings of white liberalism in South Africa was not to escape from the stifling and deadening attitudes of paternalism. From the way in which some of these people speak, it looks as if this is not yet dead: ``You must tell these poor blackies: `This is what you must do; this is what you must not do. If you do this, you would be better off.’’ I mean, really! We have had enough of that.

If the DP wants to approach us positively, and if they want to come with constructive proposals, and if they want to say: ``Let us sit down and find common solutions to common problems’’, we will listen. But, frankly, I can promise them that I am not going to listen to a lot of barmy lectures. [Interjections.] It is a great pity that in that party the one person with soul, the one person who still commands our great respect, is somebody who is young at heart, but old in age. I just wish the DP would learn something from the hon Eglin. [Applause.]

Who else but someone who has benefited from a privileged education and a privileged background can come and stand in this Parliament and say, The quality of education leaves much to be desired'', when listening to Mr Montsitsi speaking? Of course the quality of education has fallen at the school Mr Da Camara went to. If he went to a school in the townships, he would not say the same thing. If he stood here and said,How do we work together to improve the educational facilities for the millions of young African children who still require them?’’, we would have something to talk about. But he must not come and talk to me about the quality of education, because that hon member has had all the privileges. He benefited from the fact that education spending was five times more on every white child than on every African child. [Interjections.] Yet he sits here and talks about the quality of education. [Applause.]

I want to say to the hon member that it is about time that he began to understand that there is a history that we have come from, that there is a history of resistance that we have been involved in, that there are many people sitting in this room who were prepared to sacrifice their lives so that he could come and sit in a democratic parliament. [Interjections.] His predecessors were sitting in a racist parliament.

Even though there was Helen Suzman, she was alone, but it was a racist institution. All the local councils that the hon member sat in were racist. The Johannesburg Council - that stupid thing they put outside the Johannesburg City Hall - was a racist council. Now it is we, and above all the black people of South Africa, who, by their sacrifices, have enabled the hon member to come and sit in this institution. So sometimes the hon member must just show a little bit of respect to the black people of this country, and to the democratic institutions of South Africa. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Business suspended at 12:38 and resumed at 14:07.

                          Afternoon Sitting

                  MEETING OF JOINT RULES COMMITTEE

                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Order! Before we deal with the orders of the day, I would like to remind members that a meeting of the Joint Rules Committee will take place tomorrow, commencing at 08:30, in the Old Assembly Chamber.

                    TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

                           (Introduction)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, taxes and death are the inevitables. We cannot do too much about the laws of death, but the Bill we are presenting before this House today introduces amendments to almost all the different revenue laws administered by Sars, thereby incorporating into law most of the tax proposals announced earlier this year.

As we have said in this House before, the package of tax proposals put forward this year is the biggest ever announced in this country. This Bill, therefore, is the first instalment in the codification of those proposals. There are, however, more to come in the form of the residents-based approach and capital gains tax later this year and early next year.

The current Bill before the House has already received some extensive press coverage. What is, however, disappointing is that what so often happens is that the focus is directed only to issues that are sometimes perceived as unpopular measures. Again, it is like death and taxes: everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. [Laughter.] Everybody wants South Africa not to have a bad tax system, but nobody wants to pay tax.

Therefore, the comments about the changes have, at times, been exceedingly unflattering, but these are necessary measures to protect South Africa’s tax base and to keep this country in line with international tax practice. I would, therefore, like to make use of the opportunity, in the first instance, to highlight certain relief measures dealt with in this Bill.

Firstly, in respect of personal income tax, the Bill fixes a new tax rate structure for individuals, which will cost this Government about R9,9 billion. This is, undoubtedly, the biggest tax cut for individual taxpayers that has ever been introduced in this country. It reduces the tax burden across the board for all taxpayers, and is a step in the direction of narrowing the gap between the company tax rate and the maximum marginal rate for individual taxpayers. It eliminates the effects of inflation completely and, therefore, effectively puts extra money in the pockets of all taxpaying individuals in this country.

Secondly, interest exemptions, coupled with these, are adjustments that have been made to the exemption levels for interest received by individual taxpayers. The R2 000 exemption, as we recall, has been increased to R3 000 in the case of persons under the age of 65 and R4 000 in the case of persons who are 65 years old and older. As interest-bearing investments such as fixed deposits are often used by lower-income earners, this measure should provide some relief in that regard. The family unit can, therefore, earn up to R6 000 tax-free by investing in such discretionary savings instruments. This exemption now also includes foreign dividends received by individuals.

Thirdly, on the question of small business corporations, we all understand the importance of small business in this country and the role that it can play in stimulating growth and job creation. We are acutely aware, however, of the capital formation and cash-flow constraints experienced by these entities. It is for this reason that this Bill also introduces a dual-rate tax system for active small business corporations. To qualify for the reduced rate, they will need to comply with certain criteria, one of which is that the turnover may not exceed R1 million a year.

Small business corporations will, therefore, with effect from their financial years commencing on or after 1 April this year, pay tax at a lower rate of 15% on the first R100 000 of their taxable income. The normal rate of 30% will apply in respect of the taxable income exceeding R100 000. This effectively means a cash-flow advantage of R15 000 for each small business corporation which has a taxable income in excess of R100 000.

Further, just to jog the memory, I will address the depreciation for permanent structures. A further area of relief is the granting of a depreciation allowance for tax purposes in respect of certain structures of a permanent nature, such as pipelines used for the transportation of oil and gas; telephone and electricity transmission lines; and railway lines.

The development of this country and of the region as a whole is of paramount importance. The exploitation of natural gas in the area is, therefore, an important contributing factor to the development of the region. Similarly, as some of our large parastatals become taxpaying entities, it is necessary for them to become entitled to internationally accepted tax practices, in relation to assets, such as railway lines, electricity and telephone transmission lines which were traditionally state- owned. It is in this regard that it is proposed that pipelines used for transporting natural oil or gas be depreciated for tax purposes over 10 years, while electricity, telephone and railway lines will be written off over 20 years.

In respect of public benefit organisations, so-called nonprofit organisations, the existing relief measures in this regard have developed in a somewhat fragmented way over many years. The purpose of the measures in this Bill is to regulate the exempt status of these types of organisations and the tax deductibility of donations to such organisations in a more organised and systematic way, and, at the same time, to extend the ambit thereof.

The logic of the new provisions will be that this Bill provides the framework in terms of which I will be able to determine the categories of public benefit activities that public benefit organisations must engage in in order to qualify for tax-exempt status. Once that has been done, the public benefit organisation must approach the commissioner for approval in terms of certain objective criteria set out in the Bill.

The Bill also extends the category of public benefit organisations, which now include organisations mainly involved in HIV issues and the provision of care to persons affected by Aids; pre-primary schools that provide an approved educare programme, as well as primary schools; children’s homes caring for abandoned, abused or orphaned children; and organisations involved in caring for destitute aged persons.

One of the much-vaunted elements of change is the taxation of foreign dividends. As far as some of the other issues in this Bill are concerned, the proposals relating to the taxation of foreign dividends have attracted a great deal of attention. The origins of our income tax system can be traced back to the income tax system of New South Wales in Australia, as it was at the beginning of the 20th century.

The source principle of taxation, on which many of the tax regimes of the earlier British colonies was based, is therefore, still, to a large extent, enshrined in our system, whilst many of those jurisdictions abolished this principle decades ago. As South Africa has now become a player in the global market, its tax system must also develop along similar lines and become internationally competitive.

The taxation of foreign dividends is therefore a step in that direction. Even the Margo Commission, which advocated the abolition of tax on dividends in the mid 1980s, suggested that foreign dividends should be taxed on a basis suggested by that commission. The taxation of foreign dividends also has the added advantage that it neutralises certain tax schemes operating through tax havens.

As the proposal applies in respect of all dividends accruing to South African residents on or after 23 February this year, it has been argued by some that the measures are of a retroactive nature and that reserves built up prior to 23 February will now become taxable. A point worth stressing in this regard is that the amendment will not be introduced on a retroactive basis, as the event that will trigger the tax will only arise in respect of dividends accruing to shareholders from the date of the announcement. No tax will be levied on the companies declaring the dividend. The tax liability will fall on a different taxpayer, namely the shareholders, on a proactive basis.

When the secondary tax on companies, STC, was introduced, it was done on exactly the same basis and no distinction was made between old and new profits. The same also applied when the STC rate was increased thereafter or later halved. The proposal also contains internationally accepted relief measures to avoid the effect of economic double taxation. These will be further refined when the provisions in relation to the full residence system are introduced.

As always, the annual Taxation Laws Amendment Bill contains measures to neutralise attempts to exploit the tax system. I said to tax advisers gathered earlier this week that, by implementing such avoidance measures, we keep them honest and creative. This year is no exception and extremely important measures are proposed to deal with issues of this nature, such as matching income and expenditure, taxation of restraint of trade, the proposal to tax certain personal services companies.

The amending Bill before us is 137 pages long and contains 94 clauses. Within the time limit available it is impossible to deal comprehensively with all of them. I would just like to place this Bill before the House and plead for consensus support in the interest of serving the people of this country. [Applause.]

Bill, together with the introductory speech, referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration and report.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                 (Debate on Supplementary Estimate)

Vote No 3 - Agriculture:

Mnr A J BOTHA: Mevrou die Speaker, agb Minister, die DP het gedurende die begrotingsdebat oor landbou verskeie tekortkomings geïdentifiseer, en enige aanvullende bedrae geld word dus verwelkom. Hoewel R10 miljoen nie veel mag klink nie, is dit geld, en vir die armes en die arme belastingbetalers is dit sommer baie geld. Dit word aangevra vir die aanwending in die provinsies, waarop ons dus die aandag moet toespits.

Hieruit tree die uiters kommerwekkende beeld van die Vrystaatse landboudepartement na vore. Hierdie geliefde provinsie van my wat dekades lank ‘n eenpartyjuk van die NP moes verduur, word nou oorheers deur die ANC wat daar regeer, presies soos pres Mbeki gister op sy blitsbesoek aan die Parlement verduidelik het. Die lewering waarna die President verwys het, vind egter net nie plaas nie. Dit is die einste direkteurs-generaal wat deur die President aangestel is, en waarop hy so trots is, wat die probleme skep. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A J BOTHA: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, the DP identified various shortcomings during the debate on the agriculture Vote, and any supplementary amounts of money are therefore welcomed. Although R10 million may not sound like much, it is money, and to the poor and the poor taxpayers it is a lot of money. It is being requested for application in the provinces, on which we should therefore focus our attention.

In this regard the extremely troubling image of the Free State agricultural department comes to the fore. This beloved province of mine, which had to endure the one-party yoke of the NP for decades, is now being dominated by the ANC which is governing there, precisely as President Mbeki explained yesterday during his flying visit to Parliament. The delivery to which the President referred is, however, simply not taking place. It is the very same directors-general who were appointed by the President, and of whom he is so proud, who are creating the problems.]

The hon President is so committed to land reform, that he even negotiated a R100 million aid package for our neighbours, who are being mugged by president Mugabe. But, the President apparently is blissfully unaware that a similar R100 million aid package has since 1997, for three whole years, been gathering dust on the bureaucratic shelves in the Free State.

The European Union granted this aid over a period of five years, depending on commitment and, for our part, a demonstrated capacity for constructive projects. To date less than 3% of the money has been utilised. Not because the money is not available or because there are no projects. On the contrary, the European Union is desperate to give the money. The recipients are desperate to receive it. The farmers, although besmirched as being recalcitrant by the Ministers of the hon President, are willing and anxious to get involved.

And yet nothing is happening, because the political appointees of the President are demonstrating a lust for internal political infighting that precludes any reasonable delivery on their part and, worst of all, prevents others from getting on with the job. The notorious squabbles in the Free State are being caused by the ANC mandarins of the President who from Johannesburg appointed three different premiers in six years and now a new ANC leadership in the province. This administration clearly has little truck with democracy and demonstrates an alarming distrust of its own supporters. This same political interference has so incapacitated the Free State Department of Agriculture that it cannot even place foreign gifts into the supplicating hands of the people.

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, before I ask the Minister of Agriculture whether she wishes to respond to that, I want to make it clear that I was advised, literally as I was coming into the House, that the normal procedure had been changed by agreement between the parties and that the DP would not be asking questions but would be making three statements. On the basis of the agreement between the parties - as I said I was advised as I walked into the House - I have allowed this. It should not be seen as a precedent for the future. We will have to discuss it, but since it was agreed to, I have allowed it for the moment.

Mr J H MOMBERG: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I may totally not be here. I know nothing about these three statements. I have not been party to them. The ANC has not talked about them and I do not know what is going on. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry, I was given the wrong impression.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: May I address you on that point of order? There seems to be some misunderstanding. Let us just clarify matters. The fact is that one is not constrained to ask questions only. One can make statements; and that has always been the case from 1994 onwards and long before that, too. Thus, the parties… [Interjections.]

I invite the hon the Minister to read the Rules, if he would like to do that. The parties do not have to ask questions. They can make short statements as well. Each party has a certain time allocation, and when it has used up that time, whether it is on one speaker making a speech or three or six speakers, that is their business. That is the procedure that we have always followed and we should continue to follow.

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr Chief Whip, I am aware of that procedure. The point I am making is that it will be very strictly adhered to in that the statement should be relevant to the supplementary estimates. [Interjections.] It will not be a general political statement, and I will apply that very strictly.

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, maybe to clarify some of the issues that have been raised by hon A J Botha, I do not think the allegation that he seems to be making around why spending has not happened in the Free State, particularly around the donation of the EU, is actually factual. It has nothing to do with any in-fighting whatsoever.

However, one of the difficulties around that donation was that it was supposed to be matched on a rand-for-rand basis by the provincial government. And the provincial government is looking at that matter in relation to their budget. So, there is no money that is just sitting and gathering dust, and beneficiaries have been told what difficulties are being experienced.

I think he should understand that that was an agreement which was reached at a particular time and the European Union has been informed of some of the difficulties.

Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, I would like to enquire from the Minister whether, in respect of this programme, any money will be made available for research with regard to the extraction of methanol from sugarcane, to add to our limited petrol supplies and in order to make sure that South African motorists will be able to buy petrol at a reasonable price in future?

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, in response to the hon Cassim’s question, I am not sure whether the money for agricultural research can actually be used for that type of research. However, in consultation with the Ministers of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, and of Minerals and Energy we can surely explore whether there are any possibilities of undertaking joint research to deal with the matter the hon Cassim has raised.

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, you are welcome to sit. That is my seat and you are most welcome to take it.

The MINISTER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Madam Speaker, I merely want to ask the hon the Minister whether she can indicate, with regard to the additional amount that is being sought, what portion thereof will be directed towards assistance for up-and-coming previously disadvantaged farmers?

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, the amount that has actually been added to the Agriculture budget relates to the Jobs Summit commitments we made. The programme that is run under that programme is actually the land care programme, which assists not just farmers, but also communities in order to improve their natural resource base, be it land, water or removing alien or invasive vegetation.

Vote No 4 - Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

Mr I J PRETORIUS: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon the Minister which poverty relief projects will benefit from the additional funds being allocated to his department.

The SPEAKER: Order! Minister of Finance, are you responding to that? Oh, sorry Minister Ngubane, I did not see you there.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology is in the House, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: I am sorry, I did not notice that you were in the House.

The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, I thought the question was for Agriculture.

The SPEAKER: No, we had moved on. I apologise.

The MINISTER: Madam Speaker, I will certainly tell the hon member that we have allocated R12 million to the promotion of arts and culture in the Republic, and R18 million to Programme 5: Science, technology and meta- information, subprogramme: Science, technology and knowledge system development and maintenance. I can give more details about this, if needs be.

The SPEAKER: Order! Regarding the question from the New NP, perhaps Mr Pretorius wants to repeat his question.

Mr I J PRETORIUS: Madam Speaker, I will repeat my question: Which poverty relief projects will benefit from the additional funds allocated to the Minister’s department?

The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, the major outputs of the allocation will be to projects that comprise job creation, poverty alleviation and infrastructure development. The projects will include those that foster cultural tourism, cultural industry development, heritage development and paper packaging.

These are in the arts and culture sector. They are: firstly, cultural industry development - the Buy South Africa Campaign, the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal spatial projects, small-batch production centres, cinema development, recording facility development; secondly, heritage development

• Khoisan community centres; thirdly, cultural tourism development - African cuisine, cultural performances, cultural festivals, business management skills; and, fourthly, paper packaging projects, which will all run from June 2000 to March 2001.

With regard to Programme 5: Science, technology and meta-information, the aim is the implementation of strategic initiatives that facilitate the introduction of technological processes for developing secondary industries for agricultural products in such a way that new business ventures are generated, particularly for community participants in rural and semi-rural areas.

The outputs will be, firstly, the introduction of processing technologies for natural and plant fibres and indigenous foods in the following specific areas: hemp, cashmere, silk, leather, essential oils and foods. The timeframe for primary processing operations, that is extraction, in selected communities is September 2000. Manufacturing, that is value-added products, will be operationalised by February 2001. It is estimated that these projects will assist in the generation of 850 jobs over a 12-month period.

Secondly, the introduction of superior indigenous cattle genetic material to improve the quality of cattle types, which will be set up in selected committees, will be finalised by September 2000, and the breeding programme will be initiated by December 2000. Nkszn O N MNDENDE: Somlomo, njengoko esitsho uMphathiswa ukuba inxalenye yale mali iza kusetyenziselwa ukuphuhlisa iilali, ndicela, ukubuza okokuqala, ukuba malungiselelo mani anawo ukuqinisekisa ukuba ngenene nangenyaniso oko kuza kwenzeka? Okwesibini, njengokuba iimfuno zasedolophini zingafani nezasezilalini, ngubani oza kwenza izigqibo ukuqinisekisa ukuba olu phuhliso luhamba ngokweemfuno zabantu bendawo? (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Ms O N MNDENDE: Madam Speaker, as the Minister has said that part of this money is going to be utilised in developing the rural areas I would like to know the following. Firstly, what preparations are in place to ensure that this really happens? Secondly, since the needs in the cities are different to those in the rural areas, who is going to take decisions to ensure that development is in line with the needs of the people of the area concerned?]

The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, in partnership with technikons we already have programmes going. We have partnerships with the following technikons: Mangosuthu in Durban, North West, Pretoria, Bloemfontein and Free State. These are ongoing projects in the area of chemical and electronics, manufacturing, and metals moulding.

Together with Technikon Witwatersrand, we have a paper packaging programme in Eshowe which is producing materials out of recycled paper used as carrier bags and boxes. We have orders placed with major shopping centres, particularly around gift packaging. We are also working towards providing wine packaging and so on from recycled paper. The technologies use grass and all sorts of waste to produce packaging paper. The quality is good enough, and big industries are impressed.

On the other hand, in the cultural industry sector, we have crafts promotion, and we are setting up a sector education and training agency. We already have export programmes with major orders from the jubilee celebration in Rome. We have had many orders for Easter eggs which have been bidden for and which have already been delivered. Even Gucci has placed an order for some of their jewellery. So the infrastructure and apparatus are there, and we are going to extend the outreach of these pilot projects into the areas that I have enumerated. Therefore rural communities will be adequately provided for because we are already active in those areas.

Vote No 8 - Education:

Adv A H GAUM: Madam Speaker, can the Minister explain the allocation of the amount of more than R3 million in the supplementary estimate, which has been earmarked for consultants and other professional services, and tells us how and for what purposes he intends utilising the services of these consultants?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, the supplementary estimate is for R31 295 000 and it is not for consultants. The supplementary allocation is part of a Cabinet decision earlier this year to allocate R75 million to deal specifically with HIV/Aids. Out of the R75 million, the Minister of Finance, on the advice of the three Ministers involved, has allocated R31 million to the Department of Education. This will be used to focus on training young people with regard to HIV/Aids, to train trainers, to develop learning areas, and I am prepared to answer the question in detail.

As far as the consultants are concerned, this is in fact because the department is entirely a department of policy-making and monitoring. It is necessary in a small department, although the question has arisen from the supplementary estimates, to turn to people on the outside, whom we call consultants. They are educationalists. They are specialists from outside who work within the department and add value to the department. They are not the normal kind of consultants, such as engineers and others, who add very little value to Government departments. They work together in a team, and it is absolutely vital for any development in the department to rely on external services, particularly since the allegation has been made that my department does not have a sufficient number of specialists at national level. As these allegations have been made publicly, it is important to turn to specialists.

On the other hand, we would like to recruit specialists, so that they are available permanently, but at the same time there are demands for a leaner Public Service. We cannot have it both ways. We have to rely on external assistance for the formulation and implementation of policy.

Mr S J DE BEER: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon the Minister a question about the largest part of the supplementary amount to be voted, namely R26,9 million, which is described as transfer payments. Firstly, how is this amount to be spent under programme 3 and what is the desired outcome? Secondly, can the hon the Minister indicate which provinces will benefit most from the supplementary amount to be voted?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, yes, the constitutional arrangement is that the provinces are the implementing agencies. Out of the R31 million, R4,3 million is earmarked for the national department, which will work out the direction and approach to dealing with HIV/Aids. All the provinces will obtain an equitable share of the R26,9 million. The amounts are, if hon members would like to know: for the Eastern Cape - R4,5 million; the Free State - R2,2 million; Gauteng - R2,2 million; KwaZulu- Natal - R4,6 million; Mpumalanga - R2,4 million; the Northern Cape - R1,4 million; the Northern Province - R4,5 million; the North West - R2,3 million; and the Western Cape - R2,2 million.

How will these amounts be spent? Well, they will, in fact, be spent on the basis of a business plan worked out by each province. The business plan will replace the agreements entered into by the Government departments. Documents comprising about 20 pages have set out in detail how the training and activities will take place in each of the provinces. They will be supervised by both the national department and the Department of Finance. Payment will only be made on the basis of the business plan and stage by stage, as the business plan is fulfilled, payment will be made. It is a very important question, for the provinces have not been using the money, which has, for example, been allocated for training at institutions for principals, and the in-service training of teachers.

Less than 50% of the money allocated last year was actually used by the provinces, so in a sense this kind of question will add a particular strength to the need that provinces must work out the implementation programme, particularly for HIV/Aids. This is a reflection of the Government’s seriousness that we must be dealing with this - in the absence of a vaccine - with an educational vaccine of training and education. It will be a very extensive programme that will be worked out. However, the hon Mr De Beer is right. The actual implementation will depend on the capacity and the pertinacity of the provinces.

Adv A H GAUM: Madam Speaker, I am afraid that the hon the Minister’s reply to my question was not correct. It is clear from the estimate that the R31 million is made up, inter alia, of R3 million for consultant services and other professional services, so my question remains as follows: For what purpose within the broader framework of Aids will these consultants be used?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, I do not know what lawyers do in their offices, but one has to train trainers. These are not employed by the Government department. Perhaps they are employed in the lawyers’ offices. One has to make provision for the institutional arrangements in each of the provinces. We have to work out, from the central allocation, how the provinces will implement the R26 million or R27 million, as Mr De Beer has asked. One therefore needs these specialists, because we do not have the resources in the central department.

The Auditor-General has said that central Government departments are very poor at project management. That is a serious matter. Because we are very poor at project management, one has to have project leaders for that. One can call them consultants, Beelzebubs or anything one likes, but that is the technical term that is used in terms of Public Service regulations, and they are absolutely vital for the implementation of this very important allocation.

I gain the impression that Mr Gaum, like me, has very little time for consultants. I agree with him, because they very rarely add value to the employer or contractor. That is why I think it is important that we should see them as suppliers of special technical services which are vital for the implementation of the HIV/Aids programme. I would like to thank the member very much for his question.

Vote No 9 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

Mev M E OLCKERS: Mevrou die Speaker, die Nuwe NP is baie dankbaar vir die ekstra geld wat goedgekeur is vir Omgewingsake en Toerisme. Ons wil net graag van die Minister weet of die departement die kapasiteit het om die ekstra fondse vir die projekte te administreer, en indien wel, of die Minister vir die Huis ‘n kort beskrywing kan gee van watter tipe kapasiteit dit is. Gaan die provinsies dit administreer, gaan die NRO’s dit doen of wie? Indien nie, gaan dit deur oordragbetalings gedoen word? Hoe gaan dit gedoen word en watter interne beheermeganismes is in plek om te verseker dat die geld effektief bestee gaan word in die gemeenskappe waarvoor dit bedoel is? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mrs M E OLCKERS: Madam Speaker, the New NP is very grateful for the extra money which has been approved for Environmental Affairs and Tourism. We would just like to know from the Minister whether the department has the capacity to administer the extra funds for the projects, and, if so, whether the Minister could give the House a brief description of what kind of capacity this is. Are the provinces going to administer this, are the NGOs going to do so, or what? If not, is it going to be done by way of transfer payments? How is this going to be done and what internal control mechanisms are in place to ensure that the money is going to be spent effectively in the communities for which it is intended?]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Madam Speaker, I am sorry but I did not get the interpretation of the first two sentences. I got it towards the end and I struggled with the interpretation. Could the hon member repeat her question in English please? Mrs M E OLCKERS: Madam Speaker, would the Deputy Minister like me to say it in English? [Interjections.] Should it be just the last two sentences?

The DEPUTY MINISTER: The first two.

Mrs M E OLCKERS: Madam Speaker, we want to know whether she has the capacity in the department to utilise the funds well. If she does have it, what is that capacity that she wants to utilise to administer the money in the interests of communities, the environment, etc. If she is not going to do it within the department, how is it going to be done? Is it going to be through transfer payments? Is it going to be internally managed so that the provinces do it? How is she going to spend that money? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER: Madam Speaker, firstly, the member knows that we work with the provinces. Certain projects are implemented by the provinces, since they have the capacity to do that. Secondly, we are working with community projects. Once there are community projects, it means that they are community driven. The communities themselves run the projects in order that they will be sustainable and they account to us. For instance, our waste management projects are initiated by the communities themselves, and then we are able to make those transfers and they run the projects. The NGOs also assist us in that. Most of our projects are therefore done in partnership. The provinces, NGOs and communities implement them and account to us with regard to each and every step and for each and every cent that they spend. We then do the rest.

Gen C L VILJOEN: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister to give us more details on what is meant by tourist product development, in respect of which R20 million will be spent. I can understand the infrastructure development and the other R14 million, but what is meant by product development?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Madam Speaker, the tourism development allocation is the money we are using to sell South Africa to other countries and everybody else. It is also used to develop the tourism industry, because we are quite aware that we have many people who were left outside that industry. We need to develop this. For instance, we have cultural and township tourism, and those are the structures that we need to support as Government. We need to develop them, so that they can also participate fully in the tourism industry.

Prof L M MBADI: Madam Speaker, how many jobs does the Deputy Minister hope to create through the R85 million allocated to tourism development and the R14 million allocated to environmental quality and protection during the next 10 months of this financial year?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon member is quite aware that I cannot give exact figures at the moment, but what I want to assure the hon member of is that we are going to create more jobs than we had last year, as hon members can see in the budget. If the hon member can make a follow up through my office, I will send him the exact figures. I do not like thumbsucking.

Vote No 13 - Health:

Mrs S F BALOYI: Madam Speaker, of the R75 million announced by the Minister of Finance during his Budget Speech for integrated HIV programmes, R36 million has been allocated to the Minister’s department. In view of this, what criteria have been used in the allocation of the R16,8 million to provinces? Can the Minister assure this House that the money will be spent as was intended, and that the provinces have the capacity to spend the money? Thirdly, can the Minister also outline the strategies in place to ensure that the R20,1 million allocated for national programmes will not be rolled over again?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, yes indeed, I can assure this House that the money or the resources will be used.

Mr M J ELLIS: [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER: No, that is me. That hon member just has to clean his ears in order to hear me. I am using the microphone - maybe it is not working. I was saying yes, I can assure the House that the money will be spent. There are quite a number of mechanisms that we have put in place. As hon members know, we have been working feverishly, in the first place, to ensure that we have a programme based on our policies to stop the spread of HIV in this country.

We have completed the development of the five-year strategy plan in the fight against HIV/Aids. This is one programme we were very consultative on as we were putting it together. Many stakeholders participated in that. As hon members know, we have also established the SA National Aids Council, which is a body that will monitor the implementation of that strategy. We, as the department, have allocated that body R20 million for its operations for monitoring the implementation of the strategic plan.

We are also in the process of training health workers to use the guidelines for managing opportunistic infections, and for properly managing pregnant women who are HIV-positive when they come to deliver. So there is a lot of activity that is going to be taking place, and we are convinced that this money will be utilised.

In so far as the provinces are concerned, yes, the R75 million, as hon members will all remember, was allocated to the three departments by the Minister of Finance during his Budget Speech. As a department we were allocated R36 903. We are also going to utilise that money. This is very much an integrated plan in which the Departments of Health, of Welfare and of Education are participating. We are going to use this money for the implementation of the lifeskills programme, the rolling out of counselling and voluntary testing sites, community outreach programmes and community- based programmes.

Yes, part of the money, R16 819 of the R36 903, was allocated to the provinces. We are convinced that the provinces will be able to utilise this money because they themselves have put in place their own programmes, and they are also in the process of establishing their own provincial councils. I am happy to announce that KwaZulu-Natal has in fact launched its own Provincial Aids Council, and Gauteng will be launching its own council next week, on 20 June 2000. We are hoping that all the provincial councils will have been launched by the end of this year. I could continue and read the figures which show how these funds were allocated. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, we have asked Ministers to try to confine their responses to two minutes. I am sure there are a lot of supplementary questions that will be coming up. Would you like to just draw your answer to a close?

The MINISTER: Madam Speaker, I was trying to give a comprehensive response, but if that is enough, I will be happy to sit down.

The SPEAKER: Order! We are going on, as it is, till eleven o’clock tonight. So, I do not think hon members want to go beyond that. Ministers will be required to be in the House as well.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, a supplementary estimate of R36,9 million has been made available for implementing a national integrated plan for children infected and affected by HIV/Aids. The areas to be covered include lifeskills and training, community-based care and support, voluntary counselling, testing and community outreach. Can the hon the Minister explain what allocation has been made for drug-based treatment? Secondly, the plan says that 32 teachers will be trained as lay counsellors. Can the hon the Minister explain how these 32 teachers were selected; in other words, what were the selection criteria? And which areas will these counsellors cover?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, the R75 million is not the only amount we have for implementing our programme. As I said, the R75 million only covers the implementation of the integrated plan that we have been working on together with Education and Welfare. We have funds in our regular budget for acquiring drugs for managing opportunistic infections. So, it is not part of this allocation that was made available to us by the Minister of Finance in his Budget.

As far as the teachers are concerned, certainly if it is an integrated plan, and we are working together with Education, we are going to be relying on the Department of Education to identify the teachers that must be trained. But what I know is that we are going to be targeting, in particular, those provinces where we have the highest prevalence of HIV/Aids, and it is going to be quite some task for us to identify those provinces and those particular areas. But we are working together with the Department of Education.

Dr S J GOUS: Madam Speaker, first of all, we would like to welcome the extra funds in respect of the fight against HIV/Aids. What I would like to know from the Minister is whether she could enlighten us on the voluntary counselling and testing. Firstly, which institutions or areas will be designated, and on what criteria or basis will this happen? Secondly, which laboratories will be utilised for the testing? Thirdly, could she give us an estimate of the costs of one of these rapid tests?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, the process that we undertook was to ask the provinces first of all to do an audit of the counselling and voluntary testing in the provinces. Once we have done that, then we are going to roll out the voluntary counselling and testing. We have not quite finished the audit yet, but I know that most provinces do have these sites. What was the next question?

Dr S J GOUS: Hon Minister, the next question deals with the basis which would determine where these sites would be. On what basis would these sites be allocated - on a higher incidence of HIV/Aids or on a higher population?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The hon member has just said it. I think what we also want to do is ensure that these sites are not only concentrated in the urban areas, but in the rural areas as well. Yes, we are going to do that because, at the moment, the Elisa test is the cheapest test that we have - and I am sure that the hon member knows how much it costs.

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, with regard to the supplementary estimate amount of over R36 million, the Minister has indicated here that this is going to assist children infected with and affected by HIV/Aids. Would this amount cover all the children who are either infected or affected, or does the Minister foresee that there are children this amount could not possibly help?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, again I think it must be accepted in this House that the question of fighting the epidemic and of taking care of those who are infected and affected, including the children, is not just the responsibility of Government alone. This is why we have also established Sanac, because members of Sanac in their own projects are able to mobilise funds, and this is the amount that Government is putting on the table. The other members of Sanac are doing likewise - mobilising their own funds, so that we can pool all the resources and, indeed, attend to the children and orphans who are affected as a result of HIV/Aids.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, the Minister evaded my question. Could the Minister be more specific as to the amount within the allocated and/or additional budget to be used specifically for drug-based treatment?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, I am not able to give that figure. All I can say is that as a department we have R2 billion to spend on drugs across the board. We have not said which amount will be for purchasing antiretrovirals, because we know that the same drug which we may use for opportunistic infections may also be used for something else.

Ms F B MARSHOFF: Madam Speaker, I just want to ask the Minister, following on from her response on the voluntary counselling and testing issue, whether the national department has systems in place that would support the provinces in the implementation of the voluntary counselling and testing, and whether there are enough resources available for the training of lay persons to provide home-based care.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, the question as to whether we have enough resources is always problematic, because what is meant by ``enough resources’’? However, as the hon member can see from the amount that has been allocated, these resources are additional to what we as a department already have, and to what other departments have as well. It must also be accepted that this is not the responsibility of the Department of Health alone. All departments in Government have the responsibility of implementing these programmes. All that has happened is that the Minister of Finance has given us additional funds, and each department has its own allocation. This is similar with regard to the provinces and also local government.

So we have some resources, but I cannot say whether these resources are enough or not. However, we do have mechanisms in place at the national office to support the training of lay counsellors. We have just completed a curriculum for training lay counsellors, and there are people at the national office and also at the provincial offices, who will be monitoring the training.

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, are you requesting the Minister of Health for some medical assistance? I note that you are limping. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I suspect that I am paying for having laughed at the hon Douglas Gibson some time back. I am also limping now! [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Mr Gibson, I was well aware that it would be your fault. I already have a supplementary question.

The MINISTER: Madam Speaker, I am told by the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs that in Zulu they say: Inxeba lendoda alihlekwa. [Never laugh at someone’s suffering.] One should never laugh at another man’s suffering because one will pay for doing so. [Laughter.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, on the point of order raised by the hon the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development: May I address you on that as well?

The SPEAKER: On the same point of order, yes.

Mr D H M GIBSON: He has been struck down and retribution was swift and sure. [Laughter.] But he was so kind to me, and I am sorry that he is limping. I hope he gets better soon. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER: Madam Speaker, I am very impressed with his ability to empathise with an ill person. His sins are forgiven, as a result. [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: I think we should now return to the Supplementary Estimates.

Vote No 19 - Labour:

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Madam Speaker, noting that the amount allocated, as requested by the Minister, is relatively small, how will the projects that are indicated in the Minister’s explanatory memorandum contribute to poverty relief and job creation? Secondly, why should funds be utilised to print posters to be placed at mines and other places, instead of utilising these funds for poverty relief and job creation?

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBEMZI: Somlomo, linyanisile ilungu elibekekileyo ukuba imali le siyifumanayo incinci kakhulu, zizigidi ezi-3,4 zeerandi. Le mali yeyokwenza laa msebenzi uchaziweyo, wokwazisa abo basebenzi badendwayo okukuba mabathini na bakuba befumene imbalelwano okanye ukudendwa oko emisebenzini yabo. Uninzi lwabasebenzi abadendwayo lusemigodini. Kuyanyazeleka ke ngoko ukuba sibe nento esiyenzayo ukwazisa abasebenzi abasemigodini.

Ngelishwa ke, le asiyo mali yokudala amathuba emisebenzi, yeyokulumkisa abasebenzi, okokuqala. Okwesibini, yeyokunceda abaqeshi ukuba mabenze ntoni na ukulungiselela abo basebenzi badendwayo emisebenzini. Ke ngoko, le mali yeyaba bakhutshwayo emisebenzini.

Sizama ukukhawulelana naloo mba wokudendwa kwabasebenzi emisebenzini, kuba basuka balahlwe nje okwenja engena lufele okanye efileyo, okukompha. Thina ke apha kweli sebe lethu sizama ukuqokelela sihole abo badendwayo, sibabonise ukuba mabathini na.

Adv Z L MADASA: Somlomo, ndicela ukubuza kuMphathiswa ukuba kutheni le mali engayibonanga ngela xesha bekusenziwa uhlahlo-lwabiwo mali? Kutheni eyiveza mva nje, eyinyengeza? Kutheni engasixelelanga kwa ngela xesha ukwenzela ukuba nathi sikwazi ukuzilungiselela ukuze sibenakho ukumphendula. Kutheni eyifaka mva ngoku? Akayifihli kodwa?

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Somlomo, ngethamsanqa, ukuba ilungu elibekekileyo linokubuyela kumaphepa alo eSebe lezaBasebenzi linakho ukuqaphela ukuba sasinikwe imali engama-50 ezigidi zeerandi. Loo nto yalixelela ukuba siye sasebenzisa imali engakanani na ukwenza lo msebenzi. Kuyabonakala ke ukuba umsebenzi lo siwenze kakuhle kakhulu, kwanyanzeleka ke ukuba songezelelwe imali.

Akukho nto siyinyengezayo kuba asina nto siyifihlayo, ngoba nalo ilungu elibekekileyo eli liseza kudendwa ngomso, silincede ngale mali xa eli qela lalo lezopolitiko lingasalifuni. [Kwahlekwa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Madam Speaker, what has been said by the hon member is true: The amount we have been allocated, namely R3,4 million, is very small. It is meant for the stated objective of informing workers who are being retrenched what they should do when they receive correspondence informing them of their impending or actual retrenchment. Most of the workers being retrenched are from the mines. Circumstances demand that we do something and inform mineworkers.

Unfortunately, though, this amount is not meant for job creation. It is to be used to inform workers, first and foremost. Secondly, it is meant to help employers so that they know what they have to do to help workers who are retrenched. Therefore, this amount is for those workers who are being retrenched.

We are trying to minimise the impact of retrenchments on workers, because they are often discarded like a mangy or dead dog, something useless. We in our department are trying to bring together such workers and show them what to do.

Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister why this amount was not indicated during the budget stage. Why does he indicate it so late, and so secretively? Why did he not tell us at that stage, so that we could prepare ourselves and be able to respond to him? Why is he including it so late? Is he not hiding it?

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Madam Speaker, if the hon member refers to his documents from the Department of Labour, he will realise that we were allocated an amount of R50 million. That tells him what portion of this amount we have used for this purpose. It was obvious that we did a very good job, and had to get an additional amount. We are not including anything secretively, because we have nothing to hide. When the hon member’s political party no longer wants him, he too will be retrenched and we will give him assistance from this fund. [Laughter.]]

Vote No 22 - Provincial and Local Government:

Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon the Minister about the amount of R75 million that has been allocated in the Supplementary Estimate. This amount is for specific local economic development initiatives, and these projects will have to meet certain criteria. The last of these criteria is priority-targeting of previously disadvantaged sectors. What I would like to ask the Minister is: Will sectors other than the previously disadvantaged ones therefore be excluded from this specific grant?

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, will you respond to that?

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, the main thing is that municipalities that want to take initiatives which require that they be assisted must produce the necessary business plans, but the real test will be whether these projects will have the effect of tilting the balance in favour of the poor. We cannot conceivably say that we are alleviating poverty by putting money into the pockets of people whose pockets are already bulging.

Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, could I ask the hon the Minister something? I understand what he is saying, but does that mean he is referring to all the poor?

The MINISTER: Madam Speaker, it is important that we address the situation in which all the people who are poor find themselves, but one cannot just throw money at the problem of poverty. One must be satisfied that there are projects which are intended, in the end, to benefit poor people.

Chief N Z MTIRARA: Madam Speaker, an amount of R42 million was approved in the Adjustments Estimate of 1999-2000. Now an amount of R75 million is being allocated in the Supplementary Estimate for 2000-2001 for the Local Economic Development Fund. Why was there no provision in the Main Estimate for 2000-2001 for this programme? Secondly, how many municipalities will be assisted with this supplementary amount that is to be voted on, and in which provinces are they primarily located? How many jobs does the Minister intend to create with this additional allocation of R75 million?

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, I first want to make the point that if we did not demonstrate that we had the capacity to spend the money allocated to us for these purposes, the Minister of Finance would indeed not have approached Government and said that we must be given additional funds. So, because we demonstrated that we have the requisite capacity, we are receiving these additional funds.

The hon member will know that all the provinces have communities that are in dire need of this kind of resource. So, this money is not targeted at specific provinces to the exclusion of others. In our criteria, we are indeed keen to ensure that preference is given particularly to rural areas and poor areas that exist on the peripheries of cities and towns. However, we are not targeting these areas exclusively, but I am saying that, primarily, we are targeting these areas. [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: When is the election date? [Laughter.]

The MINISTER: Madam Speaker, the hon member is free to proclaim the date.

The SPEAKER: Order! On the point of order, neither the Minister nor Mr Gibson was recognised. [Interjections.]

Chief N Z MTIRARA: Madam Speaker, how many jobs does Mr Mufamadi intend to create?

Angandinceda ngaloo mbuzo umtwan’egazi? [Can the hon Minister answer this question for me?]

The MINISTER: Mulangadzulo, tshipiḓa tsha u thoma tsha mbudziso yavho. A tho ngo pfa tshipiḓa tsha u thoma tsha mbudziso yavho. [Zwiseo.] [Speaker, as regards the first part of your question; I did not hear the first part of your question. [Laughter.]]

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry:

Mnr S SIMMONS: Mevrou die Speaker, die Nuwe NP verwelkom in beginsel die bedrag van R231 miljoen wat addisioneel tot die agb Minister se begroting onder program 5 aangevra word, en het geen beswaar daarteen nie, aangesien dit oorwegend benut gaan word vir infrastruktuurinvestering ten opsigte van waterdiensteprojekte om water te bring tot waar die nood die grootste is, en vir die Werk vir Water-program wat werkskepping teweeg sal bring.

Ek wil graag vra of die Minister eerstens kan aandui welke interne beheermaatreëls in sy departement gevestig is om te verseker dat die staat waarde vir geld kry, en tweedens welke provinsies deur die Werk vir Water- program geraak word met gepaardgaande bedrae sowel as die moontlike getal werkgeleenthede wat staan geskep te word vir elke betrokke provinsie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Speaker, in principle the New NP welcomes the amount of R231 million which is being requested in addition to the hon the Minister’s allocation under programme 5, and has no objection to it, as it will be utilised mainly for infrastructure investment in respect of water service projects in order to take the water to where the need is the greatest, and for the Working for Water programme which will create employment. I would like to ask whether the Minister could firstly indicate what internal control measures have been established in his department to ensure that the state gets value for money and, secondly, which provinces are affected by the Working for Water programme, with the accompanying amounts as well as the potential number of job opportunities that may be created for each province involved.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Speaker, the internal measures of the department for the Working for Water programme are so exceptional that my colleague on the right has, as members can see from the estimates, increased the amount in this allocation to this department, for which we are very grateful. So, the Department of Finance clearly show their vote of confidence. We have the measures within the department’s strong management. With the Working for Water programme, we have exceptionally strong management to monitor proceedings, and I must say that I am delighted with the kind of reports that I receive, which show this to me.

As far as job creation and benefits are concerned, in terms of water service projects, the number of jobs that will be created are 10 000. The Working for Water project will create just under 3 000. The number of people served by the water projects will be 150 000. The number of hectares of invasive, alien vegetation cleared will be 25 000. Over 4 000 people will receive training, in all, for both projects.

Genl C L VILJOEN: Mevrou die Speaker, ek wil graag hê die Minister moet vir ons sê hoekom die waterdiensteprojekte beperk word tot vier provinsies. Volgens my het dié vier provinsies almal ‘n redelik hoë reënval. Wat dan van ander provinsies soos die Noord-Kaap, die Wes-Kaap en Mpumalanga? Kry hulle nie ook werkgeleenthede nie, of wat is die rede dat die waterdiensteprojekte net aan vier provinsies toegeken word? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Madam Speaker, I would like the Minister to tell us why the water service projects are being restricted to four provinces. To my mind all four of these provinces have a fairly high rainfall. What about other provinces such as the Northern Cape, the Western Cape and Mpumalanga? Are they not also going to receive job opportunities, or what is the reason for the water service projects only being allocated to four provinces?]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Speaker, the provinces of the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Northern Province were identified by my illustrious predecessor to my left, and I followed his trail very closely, because it works.

I can tell the hon member Viljoen that the three provinces were identified because these are the provinces with the greatest number of people suffering from poverty. The problem is quite enormous. These three provinces have 80% of the people in this country who have not been reached by our water service, and as we all know they are the most rural provinces and the provinces with the highest population rates.

The other provinces are indeed dealt with by the department in terms of our ordinary ongoing work, but this particular amount for poverty alleviation goes principally to these three provinces, as far as the water projects are concerned. Members will see that the North West has been included, and that is because we are striving to deal with the figure of just under 10% of the people who have not been serviced with water, putting that province in fourth place.

As far as the clearing of alien vegetation is concerned, this applies to all the provinces. The amount that has been provided will go to the teams in all nine provinces.

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, the increase in the budget for the implementation of water service projects from R609 million to R730 million is quite substantial. Was it not possible to include that in the Main Estimate? Why is that increase so substantial? Secondly, are the projects that are in place sustainable, or will the Minister come back to this House next year and ask for a substantial amount of money to sustain these projects?

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Speaker, I am afraid the member’s first question is not really focused on the allocation for poverty relief that I am addressing here, as far as I understand. The question is not of working out a budget vis-à-vis poverty relief. We work out our budget and we would love to have as much as possible. That is obviously not possible, as we are in a real world and not in heaven yet. [Interjections.] We work out the allocation to the best of our ability. Anything additional which the Minister of Finance and the committee dealing with poverty relief are able to provide, of course we are very grateful for and will try to apply that where it will do the most work.

As far as sustainability is concerned, last Friday I did present the defence of my budget in the National Assembly. One of the key elements of what I described as four pillars of delivery is termed sustainability. The sustainability factor is improving all the time. The first goal of my department, with the backlog which we inherited in 1994, was to deal with 12 million rural people who had never been serviced with water. The strategy that was adopted is one that I would have adopted myself and I would say any military man would have as well. That strategy was to try to develop that infrastructure to reach as far as possible. That was done at a magnificent pace.

The question of ensuring ongoing operation, maintenance and sustainability is an area that presented a certain degree of problems. This is something which we are focusing on now as a key element, and I am confident that when I return to this House in a year’s time - if, God willing, I am still here, and I hope the member is praying for me - I will be able to show that sustainability is improving all the time.

Mnr S SIMMONS: Mevrou die Speaker, dankie aan die agb Minister vir die antwoord wat hy verskaf het. Hy het egter in gebreke gebly om ‘n sekere gedeelte van die vraag te beantwoord, naamlik welke provinsies deur hierdie projekte geraak word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Speaker, thank you to the hon the Minister for the reply he gave. However, he neglected to answer a certain part of the question, namely which provinces are affected by these projects.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Speaker, he is quite right. I apologise. I have indicated which provinces the Working for Water programme essentially focuses on. As regards the water projects, there is an area of the spacial development initiative, and as far as that is concerned, we are focusing on the Wild Coast area. We have a number of projects there - 8 in all. In the Lebombo area, three projects are being delivered.

In as far as the remaining amounts are concerned, our business plan has not yet been completed. That is being worked on and will be provided to me within a month. I will certainly provide members with all the information then. But, essentially, the water projects - as I mentioned to the hon Constand Viljoen - are primarily in the Northern Province, KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. Those are really the provinces on which we are focusing.

Ms B P SONJICA: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, it is generally known that there is a huge backlog in sanitation. I would like to know whether sanitation is going to benefit from this allocation?

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon member very much. In as far as the spatial development initiative is concerned, which we are, incidentally, focusing on together with the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs and the Minister of Trade and Industry, we are striving to develop those spatial development centres for tourism and for the local people.

The question of sanitation, which constitutes an extremely serious backlog for this country with over 20 million people unserviced, is something which we will pay special attention to in the SDIs. As far as the remaining funds are concerned - and those are substantial - we are looking at the extent to which sanitation, the Cinderella service, can receive assistance.

Vote 35 - Welfare and Population Development:

Mrs P W CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, in the budget debate earlier this year, the DP expressed its concerns on the failure of service delivery and poverty relief in the Department of Welfare and Population Development.

Because of the increase in poverty in this country, and the fact that mass unemployment is driving many people to violence and crime to survive, any supplementary amount would be most welcome. The DP, therefore, welcomes the additional R6,8 million for the relief of HIV/Aids, but what actually happens to the rest of the money in the Department of Welfare and Population Development? The Minister announced in his supplementary budget of 2000-01 that he is suspending - and I emphasise, suspending - R83 million, which he promised for additional poverty relief.

In sy verklarende memorandum blyk die Minister se rede te wees dat daar geen definitiewe, konstruktiewe beplanning in die welsyndepartement bestaan nie. Minister Fraser-Moleketi wat verantwoordelik is vir die dilemma waarin ons ons bevind, asook die huidige Minister, Dr Zola Skweyiya, wat onsuksesvol is om vertroue in te boesem by die Minister van Finansies en die breë publiek, sit albei nog veilig in die ANC-kabinet. As die departement nie vinnig reggeruk word nie, stuur hy af op ‘n bankrotboedel. Wat anders kan ons verwag as daar ‘n wisseling van vyf direkteurs-generaal oor ‘n tydperk van vyf jaar was? Elke keer word daar ‘n nuwe direkteur- generaal met sy of haar eie beplanning aangestel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[In his explanatory memorandum the Minister’s reason appears to be that there is no definite, constructive planning in the Department of Welfare. Both Minister Fraser-Moloketi, who is responsible for the dilemma that we find ourselves in, and the present Minister, Dr Zola Skweyiya, who is unsuccessful in inspiring the confidence of the Minister of Finance and the general public, are both still seated safely within the ANC Cabinet. If the department is not straightened out soon, it will be heading for bankruptcy. What else can we expect with a turnover of five directors-general in a five- year period? Every time a new director-general is appointed with his or her own way of planning.]

The Minister for Welfare and Population Development must get his act together, so that the Minister of Finance can review the supplementary amount in October/November. It is a shame that poor people must suffer because of bad planning, whilst additional money is available for poverty relief.

HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Die Regering sal in elk geval dringend moet kyk na staatsondersteuning vir skoolgaande kinders tussen die ouderdomme van agt en 18. Die President sal miskien vir eers moet vertoef in Suid-Afrika en toesien dat mense se armoede aangespreek word, en dat die situasie in Welsyn drasties verbeter. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The Government will in any case have to look urgently into state support for school-going children between the ages of eight and 18. Maybe the President will have to remain in South Africa for a while and see to it that the poverty of the people is addressed and that the situation in Welfare improves drastically.]

My question to the Minister is: Can the Minister tell this House what job creation programmes … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order!

Mrs P W CUPIDO: … he is planning for poverty relief and in what provinces they will occur? Can he also tell us why the R83 million was suspended?

HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The MINISTER FOR WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to answer the lady’s question. The R83 million that was cut from the poverty relief funds was cut for the same reason that it was given in the first place, namely that taking into account the department’s current financial capacity, we would be able to spend the R120 million that was allocated by the Department of Finance for poverty relief. Whatever money is left over from this amount will be distributed in all the provinces.

The hon lady should, firstly, understand that the money that we get has to be given to projects that are able to spend that money. The money that has been allocated has been allocated in two instalments. Only 10% of that amount ought to have been allocated, and the majority of the projects in the provinces have not necessarily spent the money to our satisfaction. So what we are going to do - should they be able to spend their allocations to our satisfaction - is to concentrate in general on all the provinces that show such deficiencies and give them the capacity to spend the money effectively.

Secondly, the hon member must understand that the people we are dealing with are not like her, they generally need to be assisted, not only by the department, but basically by everybody, including the NGOs and the churches. We are working on that basis at the present moment. The money we are asking for at the present moment is meant for Aids, as my colleagues in Education and Health have already said, and it is mainly going to be spent on community-based Aids projects in six provinces, that is the Eastern Cape, the Northern Cape, the North West, the Northern Province, Mpumalanga and the Free State. In general, all the funds that are meant for poverty relief are being spent on the poor in almost all the provinces.

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, arising from the hon the Minister’s reply, what percentage of what amount of money from this estimate is going to go to the economic empowerment of disabled people?

The MINISTER FOR WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, this money is meant specifically for community-based care projects that deal with Aids and HIV in the six provinces I have mentioned.

The disabled people were given R20 million last year by the Office of the Minister in the Presidency, and they have not spent all that money yet. A large amount of that money has not yet been spent, and we are talking to them to enable them to spend that money.

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, would you sit down there. Mrs Cupido is going to speak first and I will call you thereafter.

Mrs P W CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, the Minister mentioned the amount of R83 million. I would like to quote from the explanatory notes. There the Minister of Finance indicated that the reason he suspended the money was because the department did not plan well. That is what is said in the explanatory notes. I would like to know, specifically, how the Minister plans on improving the management structures in the department.

The MINISTER FOR WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I think it has been said here in this House before that we have been working with the Ministries of Finance and of State Expenditure to improve the financial management capacity of the department. We are in the process at the present moment of appointing a chief executive officer for the financial part of our department. We are working with the Department of State Expenditure to find that person. We have advertised, and the Auditor-General is working with us to finally ensure that we do get the right person, as he promised before.

Prof L M MBADI: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, in the explanatory memorandum it is stated that R5,6 million is earmarked as a conditional grant to provinces, and six provinces have been identified. On what basis has this amount been divided among the provinces and which ones will receive the largest monetary benefit? Secondly, what guarantee can the Minister give that the amount asked for will, in effect, be spent on community-based care and will not be rolled over at the end of the financial year?

The MINISTER FOR WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, as I have said, the amount of R6,8 million has been earmarked for the community- based care projects on HIV/Aids in the six provinces I mentioned. An amount of R1,180 million of that money has been earmarked for the national department.

The provinces that are going to receive this money, as I said, are the ones that have been mentioned. This is based on the incidence of Aids in the province and on the population of the province. Regarding the capacity of the provinces to spend this money, we are working with the provinces themselves and, as I have said, the Department of State Expenditure is working very closely with us to ensure that the provinces have the necessary capacity to spend the money. Having spoken to the MECs, I have no reason to doubt that they will be able to spend that money. Mr E SALOOJEE: Madam Speaker, we are encouraged to learn that the Minister has made the reform of social security one of his department’s priorities. In the light of the huge unemployment problem, it is encouraging that consideration is being given to the notion of a basic income grant targeted at the most needy sectors of our society.

We trust that the task team appointed to investigate such reforms will enable us, as the Government, to implement reforms that will have a fundamental impact on providing a better life for all. Could the Minister tell us when the report of this task team will be made available?

The MINISTER FOR WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, when we announced the setting up of this inquiry, we indicated clearly that it would take from a year to 18 months for the work to be done. The work has been going on and we hope that in the next few weeks the committee will be able to give a report to the group of Ministers that are leading this whole project. We will make that public as fast as possible so that everybody is informed.

Debate concluded. APPROPRIATION BILL

            (Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I have been informed that the Whips have identified Votes in respect of which parties would like to make declarations, or have objections recorded, or call for divisions. I will therefore deal with this item in line with that arrangement.

Vote No 1 - Presidency - put.

Declarations of vote:

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, yesterday we were treated to a lecture from many members of the ANC about the opposition. [Interjections.] The hon Mr Derek Hanekom, having failed in Government, presumed to give the opposition a lecture on how to behave. Actually, it is not the Government’s job to tell the opposition how to do its job. It is the Government’s job to govern. We would actually like the Government to govern effectively, wisely and well. [Interjections.] We would like to see a 6% to 7% rate of economic growth in this country, so that we can get the poor out of poverty and get South Africa back to work. When that happens we will support this Vote. Until that happens, we will not support this Vote. [Interjections.]

However, I would like to say that people also ask what is going on in the opposition. I am pleased to say that this morning the DP signed up the following as members from various communities: Prof Themba Sono - the Chairman of the Free Market Foundation, Mr Hernus Kriel, and the Malemelela Organisation for the Social Unemployed. [Interjections.] I think that these are developments which are exciting for South Africa and I think it means that we are going to start breaking the monopoly of power exercised by the ANC.

However, I want to say this: The hon the President yesterday confronted us on Zimbabwe. He said that there was essentially violence in Zimbabwe today, and that there was violence in South Africa in 1994. What is the difference? The difference is this: The man the President chooses to literally and figuratively hold hands with, Mr Mugabe, promised that: death would befall his opponents'' and that they wouldbe met with fire’’. Those are the words of the head of state - the head of government - who turned an entire section of his population into enemies of the state. [Interjections.] Those are not the people that our President should consort with. That is the difference between South Africa and Zimbabwe. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Could we have some order, hon members? Proceed, hon Zondi.

Rev K M ZONDI: Madam Speaker, yesterday we did not get time regarding Vote No 1 to declare our support for the difficult work that the Deputy President has been assigned to do, particularly in leading the task team that has to deal with the HIV/Aids pandemic, which we all know is a very difficult problem.

We really want to appeal in this House for calm, because this is a national problem which should not be used, however much temptation there is, as a party-political football. The mothers of young people who are dying from Aids do not have the time to make jokes about the disaster that is on their hands. Those of us who also have the responsibility of presiding over funerals know that we are at a loss for words as to what to say when people ask what they have done to God to deserve this. So we wanted to say the Deputy President deserves our support in what he is doing.

We also want to extend our support to the work of the Minister in the Presidency, because we do know that he is also in charge of very difficult assignments - gender issues, the youth and the disabled. All these issues, actually, are national issues which should be prioritised. We want to encourage them in what they are doing, and we support them. [Applause.]

Mr R S SCHOEMAN: Madam Speaker, on behalf on the national leader of the New NP, Martinus van Schalkwyk, I wish to record that the New NP will support the Vote of the Presidency. We are going to vote for this budget because the President has put positive policy frameworks in place, and is attempting to govern in a more professional way, which we welcome. [Applause.]

As a party, we place a high premium on good governance and the setting of clear goals and objectives. Coming after the Mandela era, with its heavy emphasis on symbolism, our country now needs such a businesslike approach. There are, however, a number of concerns on our side. Firstly, an important concern is the increasing centralisation of power to the Presidency, which, in our view, is not healthy. A second and major criticism in the past year, is the President’s handling of the Zimbabwean issue, as articulated by the national leader of the New NP yesterday, during the discussion of the Vote of the Presidency, when he said the following:

… our conviction is that quiet diplomacy was not the way to deal with this issue. All our concerns and predictions about the dangers of quiet diplomacy and the meaninglessness of Mr Mugabe’s undertakings have since been proven correct.

He further said:

What could have been the launching pad of the President’s vision of the African renaissance - to stand up with courage and conviction for what is right, to give moral leadership, to alienate old political friends if necessary - is now, instead, becoming just another tombstone in our continent’s graveyard of elections conducted in the absence of real democracy.

That is our strongly held view. However, all aspects considered and on balance, the New NP will vote in favour of the Presidency’s budget. [Applause.]

Mr M E MABETA: Madam Speaker, we support the Vote on the Presidency and we would like to stress the points that we made yesterday; firstly, that the complexity in the institutional reconstruction of our society and the international system as a whole, makes it very naive to expect short-term changes which might impact on the capacity of our Government to deliver immediately. We also accept the Deputy President’s commitment here that rural rejuvenation and working together in the establishment of a sustainable development strategy are a priority in his department. We think this is very, very important. We will do everything in our power to make an input in this respect.

We strongly feel that opposition politics in South Africa are likely to degenerate, because of a tendency amongst ourselves to resort to racism and to biased, opportunistic tendencies to mobilise the feelings of people for purposes of short-term gain. In our view, the only acceptable criterion to the people of South Africa for a respectable and constructive opposition is a commitment to the original agenda of the transformation of our society, such that the gains made in 1994, as defined in our Constitution, cannot be lost through the forces of racism and the resurgence of fascism in our midst.

We, therefore, hope that our members on this side of the House and all the opposition parties will, whilst pursuing their own party-political interests, make this moral commitment that our society should never, at any point time, go back … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and members, we in the ACDP of course realise and support the importance of the work that the President’s Office is doing, and we also realise and support the importance of having the necessary resources. However, we are very concerned about the increased centralisation of power in the President’s Office and we think that is the reason there has been a significant increase in the medium-term expenditure estimates for the President’s Office, but of course this, we notice, is due to the expansion of core activities.

We, however, welcome the recommendations by the Presidential Review Commission. We commend them for the good work that they have done and we also commend them for actually managing to increase the capacity within the Presidency. What we believe is that what can be done by line function departments, by the Cabinet and the various departments, should be done by those departments, and should not be taken over by the President’s Office. However, the ACDP will support this Vote. [Applause.]

Genl C L VILJOEN: Mevrou die Speaker, die VF het kritiek teen die Presidensie uitgespreek. Ons sê eerstens dat daar sekere ooreenkomste is wat die hoofrolspelers van hierdie Presidensie met die VF aangegaan het wat tot dusver nie nagekom is nie.

Sy party het verder ook nie praktiese erkenning verleen aan die toepassing van taal- en minderheidsregte in Suid-Afrika nie. Sy Regering werk te gesentraliseerd en konsentreer hoofsaaklik op globalisering in plaas van lokalisering, wat meer by die Afrikastyl pas. Die misdaad, werkskepping, swak ekonomie, ondoeltreffende regering en korrupsie is alles aanduidend dat die President op die oomblik te veel in die buiteland is en nie heeltemal sy hande op die stuur het nie. Die VF aanvaar egter die Presidensie se bona fides aangesien goeie internasionale betrekkings opgebou moet word en die President in dié verband hoë prioriteit daaraan verleen. Tweedens probeer die President hoë prioriteit verleen aan die werf van beleggings wat sekerlik vir armoedeverligting, vir ekonomiese groei en vir ons almal baie belangrik is omdat Suid-Afrika ‘n rol te speel het, sowel internasionaal as in ‘n onstabiele Afrika. Met inagneming hiervan sal die VF hierdie begrotingspos steun. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Madam Speaker, the FF voiced its criticism of the Presidency. We want to say in the first place that there are certain agreements that were concluded with the FF by the main role-players of this Presidency, which have not been complied with as yet.

His party furthermore did not give practical recognition to the application of language and minority rights in South Africa. His Government operates in too centralised a manner and mainly concentrates on globalisation instead of localisation, which suits the style of Africa better. Crime, job creation, the poor economy, inefficient government and corruption are all indications that the President is spending too much time abroad at the moment and does not quite have his hands on the steering wheel.

However, the FF accepts the bona fides of the Presidency since sound international relations must be forged, and the President is lending this a high priority. Secondly, the President is trying to lend high priority to recruiting investment, which is certainly important for poverty relief, for economic growth and for all of us, because South Africa has a role to play, internationally as well as in an unstable Africa. Taking this into consideration, the FF will support this Vote.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, it is very interesting to have the trio we have in the Presidency in the persons of the President, the Deputy President and the Minister, and to see the manner in which they exert themselves and exercise their responsibilities over the different aspects that they administer. When one compares this to the situation next door in Botswana, where a deputy president even had to be given leave because of disagreements, we can consider ourselves very, very fortunate that things are going well.

We are very, very grateful and we would like to request that this unity should continue and that the people outside, particularly the disabled people, should get the necessary attention and support, as they have been doing. Our womenfolk, under the care of the Minister in charge, should also continue to be assisted. On that note the UCDP will in no way hesitate to vote in favour of this Vote. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, the Presidency is the arms and legs of the entire political administration in the country. The budget plan for the Presidency facilitates the implementation of an effective measure as a tool for transformation and successful performance management, so that the demands of the national and international community can be met. The MF wholeheartedly supports the Vote of the Office of the Presidency. [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Madam Speaker, I have nothing new to add at this stage.

Dit word laat. Ek het niks om te sê nie. [Gelag.] [It is getting late. I have nothing to say. [Laughter.]]

Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, some people say it is easier to fight for freedom than to govern. When one is fighting for freedom, both the enemy and the frontline are clear. But when one is governing, the fronts are many and undefined, and the pitfalls are as many and treacherous as the potholes in some of our townships.

In our own case, the direction we need to take as a country is very clear. We must normalise our society as quickly as we can. We can only do that by improving the social and economic status of the black majority, who have lived under oppression for nearly three and a half centuries.

Are we moving in that direction? Yes, we are. Are we moving fast? Not fast enough. Are we perhaps too impatient? Maybe we are, but we have every reason to be eager to see rapid change for the better.

Azapo will support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr C NQAKULA: Madam Speaker, the Vote of the Presidency is informed by the commitment of the ANC to fundamental, democratic transformation to benefit, in the main, those of our people who for many years were deprived, through institutional means, of their human rights. The Presidency needs our co- operation and support so that it can fulfil its role as the nucleus and the main co-ordinator of Government’s work to provide a better life for all our people.

As the main force for democratic change in our country, the ANC is committed to bringing relief to the millions of our people whose socioeconomic conditions were designed by the apartheid regime to condemn them to a state of perpetual poverty, illiteracy and ill-health. We are committed to consolidating and strengthening our new political order and to securing the necessary conditions for thoroughgoing democracy and freedom for all our people, black and white.

It is incumbent on all of us as public representatives to work together to foster a sense of national consensus that will refocus our people and reorientate them towards the national goals of full democracy, reconciliation, peace and justice. Consequently, the ANC supports the Vote, believing that all the people of our country who love freedom and peace will do the same, and let the retrogressive forces, led by the DP, stew in their own self-inflicted isolation. [Applause.] Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 277: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smit, H A; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Deventer, F J; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 34: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Singh, A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.   Vote No 3 - Agriculture - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr A J BOTHA: Mevrou die Speaker, die DP het die agb Minister in die begrotingsdebat gesteun, ten spyte van ernstige tekorte wat aangedui is. Daar is veral daarop gelet dat die Landbounavorsingsraad heeltemal te stief behandel is. Navorsing is die mees basiese vereiste vir toekomstige ontwikkeling, waar sonder ons nie die aanslag van globalisering sal kan hanteer nie. Hierbenewens sal Suid-Afrikaanse landbou ten gronde gaan as die agb Minister nie druk op die Kabinet uitoefen om ‘n doeltreffende stelsel vir die hef van tariewe daar te stel nie. Sonder hierdie stelsel sal Suid-Afrikaanse landbouers net nie kan meeding met swaar gesubsidieerde ingevoerde produkte nie.

Voorts moet ons ons ernstige teleurstelling uitspreek oor die agb Minister se onvermoë om die dieselrabat vir landbou te herstel. Die agb Minister van Finansies het onlangs sy twyfel uitgespreek daaroor of dit moontlik sou wees om mariene diesel se rabat te misbruik. Ek kan die agb Minister van Finansies verseker dat dit net so maklik is vir ‘n matroos om skelm te wees as wat dit vir ‘n boer is om skelm te wees.

Die MINISTER VAN FINANSIES: Jy weet mos, né!

Mnr A J BOTHA: Almal van ons weet dit, agb Minister. Wat hier ter sprake is, is onregverdige diskriminasie wat uit die weg geruim moet word. Die DP versoek die agb Minister om in die komende jaar baie nouer met die portefeuljekomitee saam te werk sodat landbou weer sy regmatige plek in die Begroting kan herwin. Die DP steun hierdie begrotingspos. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr A J BOTHA: Madam Speaker, the DP supported the hon the Minister in the Budget debate, in spite of serious shortcomings that were pointed out. Special attention was given to the fact that the Agricultural Research Council has been treated particularly badly. Research is the most basic requirement for future development, without which we shall be unable to deal with the onslaught of globalisation. Apart from this South African agriculture will go to rack and ruin if the hon the Minister does not put pressure on the Cabinet to introduce an efficient system for levying tariffs. Without this system South African agriculturalists will simply not be able to compete with heavily subsidised imported products.

Furthermore, we must convey our deep disappointment regarding the hon the Minister’s inability to restore the diesel rebate for agriculture. The hon the Minister of Finance recently expressed his doubts as to whether it would be possible to abuse the rebate on marine diesel. I can assure the hon the Minister of Finance that it is just as easy for a sailor to be dishonest as it is for a farmer.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: You would know!

Mr A J BOTHA: All of us know that, hon Minister. What is at issue here is unfair discrimination that must be eliminated. The DP wants to request the hon the Minister to work much more closely with the portfolio committee in the coming year so that agriculture can regain its rightful place in the Budget. The DP supports this Vote.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, we in the IFP are happy to support Vote No 3

• Agriculture. We are greatly heartened by the hard work of the Minister and the Deputy Minister. They have a great team.

We need, as we have said before, to focus on indigenous vegetables, herbs and plants. We are returning to a pre-antibiotics age, since we know that most of our antibiotics are now failing. South Africa, because of its great heritage of plant materials, needs to exploit this to the advantage not only of our country, but the world at large.

We also request the Minister that there be a downward transfer of technology to the rural communities, in order that they may be able to farm in a sustainable manner and also be able to enjoy greater profits.

We also wish to raise the problem of the fruit farmers in the Western Cape. We feel that the markets for our fruit farmers are beginning to diminish, and it is the role of the department, probably together with the Minister of Trade and Industry, to see how we can continue to expand our fruit export markets.

Finally, there is another problem with regard to our farmers. Farmers are losing whole herds overnight, and even their crops just when those crops are about to be harvested. Some form of security will serve as encouragement to our new farmers that, if they do go into farming, it will provide a guaranteed form of income.

We also wish to plead, on behalf of the IFP, that land transfer to black farmers be accelerated. We know that the Minister is doing a good job and we encourage him in this respect. We support him and we hope that this process will be accelerated further. Finally, we hope that there will be a sufficient number of field officers to enable our new farmers to enjoy scientific and technical expertise, in order that they do not remain as subsistence farmers, but indeed become commercial farmers. The advent of the black commercial farmer will indicate that our Government and the Ministry have succeeded. [Time expired.]

Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, we support the attempts by the Department of Agriculture to democratise farming in our country. Suggesting that 38% or so of agricultural land could be in black hands in the near future is welcome news indeed.

We are aware that the acquisition of land, training of farmers and provision of support systems will cost a lot of money and take quite some time, but it has to be done. White farmers are where they are today because governments of the past gave them lots of support. The future of our country is integrated. We should therefore seek to correct the situation where large-scale commercial farming is the preserve of a particular race group. Azapo will support this Vote.

We also wish to observe that since 1995 only 2 500 restitution claims, out of 63 000 lodged, have been settled. This is roughly 4% of all restitution claims. This has benefited roughly 70 000 families or households in our country. The Minister and the Land Restitution Commission have been assuring us that the tempo of settlements will be increased. We are really hoping that this will happen in the near future. Once more, we support the Vote.

Adv S P HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker, we as the ANC support this Vote. The Ministry of Agriculture and Land Affairs is in constant communication with all relevant stakeholders in the agricultural sector, both the commercial and emerging farmers. We are aware of their concerns, including the matter of the diesel rebates. The Minister of Finance is looking into this matter, and we are hoping that a resolution of the problem will be found soon.

With regard to the ARC, that is the Agricultural Research Council, the Minister is looking into it. She is working hand in hand with the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, as the money for that particular council comes from that department, to be deposited with the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs. Land is, indeed, being transferred into the hands of some of the black members of our society. The department has a programme that will soon be implemented. The programme will, firstly, be looking primarily at ensuring that agricultural land that is in the hands of the state is targeted and transferred to the deserving black communities. The Minister is working hand in hand with her counterparts in the provinces, and we are convinced, as the ANC, that results will soon be seen. [Applause.]

Vote No 3 agreed to.

Vote No 4 - Arts, Culture, Science and Technology - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr R S NTULI: Madam Speaker, in opposing this Vote, the DP wants to make the following points: The party is concerned at the manner in which the department handled the new coat of arms for the country. [Interjections.] There was no consultation with Parliament. National symbols are intended to unify the nation, but become unnecessarily controversial when imposed by the ruling party. [Interjections.]

If we are serious about national unity in our cultural diversity, then consultation on such symbols is necessary. A further reason for not supporting the budget is that there was no adequate funding for the performing arts, because of the department’s overspending. The failure of the Ministry to nurture and integrate emerging African artists into the existing infrastructure in performing arts is a cause for concern.

Finally, it is very difficult to accept the integration of arts and culture with science and technology, because their objectives do not form a natural cohesive unit. This becomes obvious in discussions in the portfolio committee. The state would be better served if the departments were disbanded and the portfolios transferred to other departments.

In conclusion, this restructuring would be cost-effective and would assist all portfolios to meet their objectives. The DP will not support the Arts, Culture, Science and Technology Vote. [Interjections.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, it is very sad indeed that the DP will not be supporting this Vote, when this particular department has done so much. For example, last year we had the Year of Science and Technology which, for the first time, anywhere in the world, happened over one whole year. It has never happened in the annals of history. One needs to congratulate the hon the Minister and also to recognise the unique role that the IFP has been playing in respect of arts and science. Wherever we go in the world, the combined role of the ANC and the IFP in respect of arts and science has been universally accepted. The fact that we have so many binationals with Germany, the United States of America and every other country indicates the way in which the rest of the world focuses on our arts and science.

We have, indeed, an important role to play in this regard. The fact that we perfected negotiations in this country is one which, through the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, we can give to the rest of the world as part of the legacy of the new Government. We do, of course, need to brand ourselves as a peculiarly African country. And this is the new challenge that the Minister and his department will have to face in this respect.

I must also point out the fact that with the large telescope, in respect of the laser, and in respect of a number of other aspects of high sciences, this country, through the CSIR and the Science Foundation, has been really contributing in a sterling manner to South Africa, to its economy and to its intellectual growth. It is really presuming on the generosity of the masses of this country that the DP fails to recognise the signal contribution and to give it the wholehearted support it needs. We in the IFP want to say to this House: ``Support this, because, via arts and science, we will indeed become the premier nation on this continent and in this world.’’ [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr I J PRETORIUS: Madam Speaker, the main reason the New NP will be voting against this Vote is that the Government, inter alia, abolished art and music as subjects in state schools. The South African music industry is presently valued at approximately R2 billion. The entertainment industry is valued at approximately R7,4 billion. The whole industry employs approximately 32 000 people.

The other criticism I have against this department is the fact that the Government is not buying any library books. Our domestic publishing industry is worth more than R6 billion, and employs between 60 000 and 80 000 people. Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, the Minister, the Deputy Minister and members of the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology have told this House of their intention to correct the discrimination of the past by promoting and supporting cultural projects in the black community. May they please do something that we can see.

In particular, could they consider doing something that would promote and benefit our legendary and senior artists such as Philip Tabane and his Malombo, Miriam Makeba, Jonas Gwangwa and so forth. Could they do something that will brighten their lives and make them more comfortable in accordance with their exalted status in our society. Could we do something while they are still alive, so that we do not repeat the regrets that we had when Mahlathini, Margaret Mcingana and others passed away. We will support this Vote.

Ms N M TSHEOLE: Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the ANC to support this Vote, because, although other people do not see the value of arts and culture, the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology is redressing the imbalances of the past. When the imbalances of the past are being redressed, obviously, certain people have to feel neglected, because they have been getting more than the others were getting.

On behalf of the ANC, we would like to support this Vote because we look at the pilot projects in science and technology. We have pilot projects which have been established. They use technology stations and technology incubators for the development of SMMEs. This is a good foundation or a good basis for full-scale technology-development-related SMMEs.

Then we also have money put aside for IKS, the Indigenous Knowledge Systems. This is seeking to address the imbalances of the past where indigenous knowledge was not given any attention at all. On this basis, we support this Vote.

The other issue that I would like to refer to is the legacy projects. Members know that everything that is being done is to redress the imbalances of the past. We have science and technology legacy projects and community-based, multifunctional centres. One will find that they are there in arts and culture. The people who are complaining are those who have been getting more; and, because they do not want to share, they feel that they cannot support this Vote.

We look at language. There are lots of positive developments. We know the Khoisan community which has been neglected for centuries. The department has done a lot. There is already a body established for the revival of the culture and the languages of the Khoisan communities. The portfolio committee is also establishing a project for living treasures for the issues that the hon member Mangena referred to. So on all these issues - they are so many - we support this Vote. [Applause.]

Vote No 4 agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).

Vote No 5 - Communications - put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, when we debated this Vote here in May, we said that the department behaves like a law unto itself, instead of respecting the law as it stands and accelerating the preparation of new law to liberalise the sector. It follows therefore that we said that we could not support the Vote and that remains the position today.

In particular, we objected to the fact that the director-general treats the regulators like toy telephones … [Laughter] … and that the hon the Minister had repealed Satra’s regulations on interconnection and facility provision after gazetting them - yet another example of executive interference with the independent, predictable, stable regulation without which we cannot hope to establish an attractive investment environment.

Since then, Satra has taken legal opinion. It has reinstated its regulations. Relations between Satra and the director-general have deteriorated to the point where the latter calls Satra, I quote: People who do not have the interests of Government and the industry at heart,'' and for whom he has, therefore, no time. He has described the reinstatement of the regulations as:The last kicks of a dying horse.’’ And that is a shocking statement.

As the information industry of South Africa said this week, we cannot have Ministers and bureaucrats sweeping aside controls simply because it does not suit their agenda to follow the law. We congratulate the Minister on achieving a reduction in Telkom’s exclusivity period and for announcing a date for full liberalisation, although we think that 2007 is too far away. But, until the department learns to respect the regulators and the law, we vote against. [Applause.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Mhlonishwa Somlomo, i-IFP, ngaphambi kokuthi ilwesekele lolu daba, ifuna ukuveza ukuthi ukukhuliswa kwezilimi kwa-SABC kufuneka kwandiswe ukuze zonke izilini ezikhulunywa lapha eNingizimu Afrika zizwakale zonke.

Okwesibili, sifuna ukuthi lo Mnyango wenze isiqiniseko sokuthi ezemidlalo ziyazeka kulo lonke izwe laseNingizimu Afrika, zingatholakali esilungwini kuphela. Okwesithathu ngukwehliswa kwemali ekhokhelwa ukusebenzisa omakhalekhukhwini. Kufanele bangabizi kangaka bese kuthi umuntu ongenayo imali angabi nawo umakhalekhukhwini. Kufanele batholakale kalula. Okwesine ngukuthi uM-Net mawungatholwa yizigwili kuphela kepha mawutholwe yiwo wonke umuntu.

Ngakho-ke, kunesidingo sokuthi kuzo zonke lezi zinto ezixhumanisa abantu, ezibafundisayo, ezibakhulisayo ngokomqondo, nezenza ukuthi bakwazi ukuxhumana, kungasetshenziswa isiNgisi kuphela kepha kusetshenziswe zonke izilimi zabantu khona bezokuzwa. Siyowesekela-ke lo Mnyango uma ukwenza lokho. (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, before the IFP supports this Vote, it wants firstly to point out that the use of different languages by the SABC should be increased so that all languages spoken in South Africa will be heard on the air.

Secondly, we want this department to ensure that sport is broadcast not only on English channels but also on all channels for all South Africans. Thirdly, the price of cellular phones should be decreased. Cellular phones should not be so expensive that low-income-earners find it difficult to have cellular phones. Cellular phones should be easily obtainable.   Fourthly, M-Net must not be a channel for rich people only, everybody must be able to receive it. Therefore, there is a need for the SABC not to broadcast only in English, because the programmes that it broadcasts facilitate communication, teach, increase knowledge and connect people with their world. All languages must be used so that people will be able to understand what is being said in these programmes. We will support this department if it does exactly what I have just mentioned.]

Mnr J J DOWRY: Mevrou die Speaker, van die positiewe aspekte van telekommunikasie die afgelope drie jaar was die feit dat 800 000 nuwe telefoonlyne aangelê is, waarvan 70% na plattelandse gemeenskappe aangelê is. Aan die einde van vanjaar sal meer as 1 miljoen voorheen benadeelde mense beskik oor telefone.

Die openbare uitsaaier het ook die afgelope jaar beter gevaar op finansiële gebied, soseer dat staatshulp aan dié korporasie tot ‘n groot mate beëindig kan word. Nog ‘n positiewe aspek is dalk die moontlike opening van die 800- frekwensiespektrum, wat nie net die derde selfoonlisensiehouer sal baat nie, maar ook die bestaande twee netwerke.

Die Nuwe NP is egter verontrus en teleurgesteld oor die hantering van die derde selfoonlisensie, asook die feit dat Satro se begroting soos wat aangevra is, nie aan hom toegestaan is nie. Die somtotaal is egter dat die arm mense van ons land groot voordeel getrek het uit die werksaamhede van die Ministerie oor die afgelope jaar. Dit sal daarom volgens die Nuwe NP verkeerd wees om teen hierdie begroting te stem. Gevolglik steun ons die begrotingspos. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J J DOWRY: Madam Speaker, one of the positive aspects of telecommunications during the past three years was the fact that 800 000 new telephone lines were laid on, of which 70% were laid on to rural communities. By the end of this year over 1 million previously disadvantaged people will have telephones.

The public broadcaster also fared better financially during this past year, so much so that state aid to this corporation can be stopped to a great degree. Another positive aspect may be the possible opening of the 800- frequency spectrum, which will not only be to the benefit of the third cellular licence holder, but also the existing two networks.

The New NP is, however, alarmed and disappointed about the handling of the third cellular licence, as well as the fact that Satra was not granted the budget that it requested. The result, however, is that the poor people of our country benefited greatly from the activities of the Ministry during the past year. It would, therefore, in the opinion of the New NP, be wrong to vote against this budget. We accordingly support the Vote. [Applause.]]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, the department has very important functions to perform, and it has made great strides. Some statutory bodies function under the aegis of this department and, therefore, its importance increases accordingly. All facets of the communications fraternity fall under the department.

However, all is not well with this fraternity. There has been controversy surrounding the awarding of the third cellular licence. The successful bidder has still to be identified and informed of its identification. Legal action has been instituted and allegations and counterallegations of alleged misdemeanours abound. Suspicion and mistrust seem to be the order of the day.

The Minister and her director-general will have to act decisively to restore confidence. What has been happening does not augur well for the future of communications and investor confidence in the industry. One cannot expect possible investors in the third cellular network to be held hostage for over a year, whilst decision-makers are bickering. If need be, the entire process should be stopped, and a new process set in motion within strict timeframes for its finalisation. With these few remarks, the UDM will be supporting the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and members, effective communication is crucial to sustain a healthy democracy. South Africa, in comparison to the rest of Africa, has the capacity to become a world player in the field of telecommunications. Despite our potential and Telkom’s attempts to put a telephone within the reach of every family and every home, we have noted in this new millennium that there are several million poor families who cannot afford a basic telephone service.

We welcome the decision by Government to end Telkom’s monopoly by the year 2001, and we believe that a new competitive national telephone company will assist to put an affordable telephone system in every home. We commend the two cellphone companies, Vodacom and MTN, for the improvement in their services and we deplore the incompetent manner in which Satra has handled the process of granting a third cellular licence, which has still not been finalised. We are also very disappointed about the manner in which the IBA has treated the applications of Christian community radio stations. Almost all of them have been rejected and we therefore cannot support this Vote.

Dr P W A MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, die VF en die komitee het goeie verhoudinge met die direkteur-generaal en daar is gereelde skakeling met hom. Ek wil hom ook graag gelukwens met die verskeie prestasies van sy departement, veral met betrekking tot telefoonvoorsiening.

Ongelukkig, aan die ander kant, is daar ook heelwat probleme. Miljarde rande word jaarliks in die Suid-Afrikaanse telekommunikasiewêreld bestee. Daarom is dit belangrik dat ‘n liggaam soos Satro se geloofwaardigheid bo alle twyfel moet wees. Die fiasko met die derde selfoonlisensie het hierdie geloofwaardigheid permanent in Suid-Afrika en internasionaal geskaad. Dit maak dit vorentoe problematies om dit weer te herstel.

Die SABC val ook op ‘n indirekte wyse onder hierdie departement en onder die Minister se pos. Ons het in die verlede tydens die bespreking van die begrotingspos volledig ons probleme en besware met die SABC uiteengesit. Ons het ook waardering uitgespreek vir verbeterings by die SABC, byvoorbeeld taalblokke wat ingebring is wat verstandiger is en meer konkreet met die mark ooreenstem.

Hierdie Parlement het egter wat ons betref ‘n onregverdige stelsel van televisielisensies aanvaar. Baie mense word geforseer om vir televisielisensies te betaal terwyl hulle nie ‘n volledige diens ontvang nie. Baie gedeeltes van die platteland ontvang nie al die kanale nie. Ons het ook probleme spesifiek wat die nuusdekking betref. Die bimediabenadering, glo ons, werk mee tot nuussentralisering en tot die manipulering van nuus en ons kan nie daarmee saamstem nie. Ons dink ook dit is uit ‘n kommunikasieoogpunt die verkeerde benadering. Die VF sal teen hierdie portefeulje stem. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, the FF and the committee have a sound relationship with the director-general and we liaise with him regularly. I would also like to congratulate him on the various achievements of his department, in particular with regard to the provision of telephones.

Unfortunately, on the other hand, there are also quite a number of problems. Annually billions of rands are expended in the world of South African telecommunications. That is why it is important that the credibility of a body such as Satra should be above reproach. The fiasco with the third cellular licence has permanently harmed this credibility in South Africa and internationally. This is making its future restoration problematic.

The SABC also falls indirectly under this department and the Minister’s Vote. In the past, during the discussion of the Vote, we fully expounded our problems with and objections to the SABC. We also expressed appreciation for improvements at the SABC, for example, language blocks that were introduced that were more sensible and corresponded more concretely with the market.

However, as far as we are concerned, this Parliament accepted an unfair system of television licensing. Many people are forced to pay for television licences while they do not receive a full service. Many parts of the rural areas do not receive all the channels. We also have problems specifically concerning news coverage. The bimedia approach, we believe, contributes to the centralising and manipulation of news and we cannot agree with that. We also think that from the point of view of communication it is the wrong approach. The FF will vote against this portfolio.]

Mr N N KEKANA: Madam Speaker, we are sick and tired of the fairy tales of the DP. [Interjections.] What we know is that behind the headlines and the sound bites there is real work to be done to address the legacy of apartheid.

The ANC supports this Vote because we are on course to roll out 2,8 million lines by March 2002. Telkom, our national operator, has installed over 1 million lines. Of these lines, 14 000 were installed in schools, hospitals and police stations, and over 2 091 villages have received, for the first time, basic telephone services.

Today the Post Office receives no subsidy from the Government. We have entered into a strategic management partnership with the New Zealand Post Office in order to turn around the loss-making Post Office and meet the postal needs of all South Africans. In more than 200 years only 3 million postal addresses were allocated in South Africa. Today, as we speak, the ANC-led Government has, in just four years, added 4 million new addresses. That is a major achievement.

We are supporting this Vote because we now have 112 community-radio-station licences and 15 private radio stations, introducing a plurality of voices and opinions. The public today has a variety of programmes on radio and television, with e.tv and DSTV offering additional television programmes to the three SABC television channels.

The department and the Ministry are also paying a lot of attention to training and skills development. There is also an investigation into the possibility of launching, for the first time, our own satellite. Therefore, the ANC believes that the department and the Ministry are on course to deliver and improve the lives of our people in this country, and we stand to support this Vote. [Applause.]

Division demanded. The House divided:

AYES - 270: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Masithela, N H; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smit, H A; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Deventer, F J; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.

NOES - 41: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Mayatula, S M; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Singh A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Viljoen, C L; Waters, M.

Vote No 5 accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 6 - Correctional Services - put.

Declarations of vote:

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Speaker, the budget provides for the incarceration of 150 000 prisoners, 17 000 short of the existing number. It is inconceivable that the budget can be supported on the basis of an expected and definite shortfall. Two of the most important programmes relating to offenders, namely the care of offenders and their reintegration into the community, have received the lowest increases proportionate to other main functions.

A figure of R33 million was allocated to design a new uniform, despite a Cabinet decision on 1 April to demilitarise. In contradiction to the Cabinet decision, the old uniforms are still in use, and a possible return to the old uniforms, with cosmetic changes, at a price of R18,75 million is being considered.

The electronic monitoring project is still not in a position to be implemented, despite the fact that the department initially undertook the project from September 1996 to August 1997.

The totally inadequate amount of R4,6 million allocated for the imposition of private-public partnerships shows that the department has still not realised that the privatisation of certain functions within the department is financially and effectively better managed by the private sector. About R35 million of the 1999-2000 budget will be unspent and rolled over to the next financial year.

The management of the Department of Correctional Services levelled major criticism at the department owing to the lack of proper planning and budgeting, the overcentralisation of many of its functions, the lack of any official service delivery improvement plan, the overcentralisation of control, and the deeply felt sense of unfairness towards the organisation, which was thought to be riddled with favouritism, cronyism and corruption.

In conclusion, the DP does not support the budget.

Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Speaker, the IFP fully supports this Vote. [Interjections.] This is one department that, I think, really works under extremely difficult circumstances. It works under circumstances not of its own making. The Departments of Safety and Security, and of Justice play a big role in the overcrowding which the Department of Correctional Services has to deal with. It is important that we applaud the Minister and his department for the initiatives they have taken to sort out the corruption that they have found in the department. This is something to be applauded, and should not be knocked at all.

I think that it is time that the people who vote against such things take the time and trouble to understand the transformation that has taken place in this department. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It is one of the greatest transformations I have seen in any department in this Parliament since

1. [Applause.] We congratulate the Minister, and the IFP will be supporting this Vote. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, corruption, bad management and the misappropriation of funds have rocked this department. The New NP demanded intervention by President Mbeki. We are pleased to say that President Mbeki and Minister Skosana did not cover anything up. Our call to clean the department and kick out corrupt and incompetent officials has been heeded to. A new commissioner has been appointed with officials from the Public Service Commission. Vacancies have been advertised to replace corrupt officials. I visited the Durban-Westville and Pietermaritzburg prisons, and I could see great improvements.

Die Nuwe NP is verbind tot skoon, effektiewe regering. Ons sal die begroting steun en belowe aan alle Suid-Afrikaners om ons waghondfunksie vreesloos en konstruktief te beoefen. Ons wil die agb Minister gelukwens met die goeie werk wat hy doen en dat hy sonder aansien des persoons ook vreesloos optree om skoon te maak. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The New NP is committed to clean, effective government. We will support the budget and promise all South Africans to perform our watchdog functions fearlessly and constructively. We want to congratulate the hon the Minister on the good work he is doing and that he is also acting fearlessly, without fear or favour, to clean up the administration. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, during the submissions on this Vote the issue of overcrowding in the prisons was emphasised. In this regard, I was recently able to visit the Potchefstroom prison, where I was able to personally witness the deplorable overcrowding, owing to, inter alia, budgetary constraints.

The concept of restorative justice is a definite method of addressing overcrowding in prisons. By means of employing divertive programmes, offenders, particularly the youth, can be diverted from criminal justice processes, and thus possible incarceration.

The focus is placed on acknowledgement of blame by the offender and on restitution to the victim. In terms of the recent United Nations Crime Conference Declaration, member states are encouraged to develop ``restorative justice policies, procedures and programmes that are respectful of the rights, needs and interests of victims, offenders, communities and all other parties’’.

In this regard, the Applied Fiscal Research Centre of UCT, having been commissioned by the SA Law Commission to evaluate the cost of implementing the proposed child justice Bill, which proposes directing children towards restorative justice programmes, concluded that, possibly, the most outstanding aspect of the new child justice Bill is that it will enable the Government to realise substantial savings, and also ensure that the remaining state expenditure is spent more effectively.

Whilst we have severe reservations about this Vote, owing to widespread corruption and nepotism, we trust that the actions taken by the new commissioner and the Ministry will address these issues. We earnestly request the Minister, together with other departments in the security cluster, to implement and look at these concepts of restorative justice as a matter of urgency.

In conclusion, we support this Vote. [Applause.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, I also rise to support this Correctional Services Vote, firstly, because I have just visited the prisons and have seen for myself what they are like.

However, arising from that, I received a letter from a New NP supporter. This New NP supporter asks me in the letter: ``Why are you protecting the coloured and kaffir, black child criminals?’’ This is in the letter. Now, this makes … [Interjections.] No, she said so. Here is the letter. I will give it to members just now.

I just want to tell the hon members that when I visited the prisons, I was surprised not to see one white child in prison. The question remains: Where are the white children in this system? Nobody can tell me that one cannot find a naughty white child. Why is it only coloured and black children who are kept in this system?

This is from a New NP supporter. She says: ``I voted for Mark Wiley.’’ [Interjections.] No, that member is confused. He is dead already, in any case. [Laughter.] The reason I rise to support this Vote is because the keeping of children in prisons is a violation of sections 12, 28 and 35 of the Constitution. I think that the New NP should go and teach its members about the Constitution. [Applause.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Mevrou die Speaker, ek is bly dat Patricia de Lille die … [Tussenwerpsels.] [Madam Speaker, I am glad that Patricia de Lille … [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Mnr D V BLOEM: Enige regdenkende mens in Suid-Afrika sal hierdie begroting steun. Dit is net mense wat nie probleme het nie wat teen hierdie begroting sal stem. Patricia de Lille is heeltemal reg dat hierdie mense nie weet wat in die gevangenisse aangaan nie. Daar was in die verlede probleme. Hierdie probleme word gehanteer.

Die Minister, die President en die hele Kabinet is besig om aandag te gee aan probleme wat daardie agb lede se party geskep het en vir ons nagelaat het. Ons het nie hierdie probleme geskep nie. Minister Skosana is nou ‘n paar maande in hierdie pos, en hy is al grys soos hy werk aan hierdie probleme. Hy slaap letterlik in die gevangenis om te kyk hoe dinge daar verloop. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ons steun hierdie begroting. Hierdie mense wat so baie kla dat daar by hulle huise ingebreek word, is net daar om met die media te praat.

Ek wil egter hê die mense daar buite moet sien wie is die mense wat kriminele aanmoedig om hierdie land in ‘n swak lig te stel. Dit is die DP en andere wat teen hierdie begroting gaan stem. Dit is die mense wat nie wil hê misdaad … Hulle gaan praat in die buiteland oor die misdaad, maar hier in die land sê hulle hierdie begroting moenie gesteun word nie. Hulle is volslae lafaards om nie hierdie begroting te steun nie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D V BLOEM: Any right-minded person in South Africa would support this budget. Only people who have no problems would vote against this budget. Patricia de Lille is quite correct in saying that these people do not know what is happening in the prisons. In the past there were problems. These problems are being dealt with.

The Minister, the President and the whole Cabinet are addressing problems which those hon members’ party created and bequeathed us. We did not create these problems. Minister Skosana has been in this post for a few months and already his hair has gone grey from working on these problems. He literally sleeps in the prison to see how things are progressing there. [Interjections.] We support this budget. These people who are always complaining that their houses are being broken into, are only there to talk to the media.

However, I want the people out there to see which people are encouraging the criminals to create a negative image of the country. It is the DP and others who are voting against this budget. They are the people who do not want crime … They go abroad and talk about the crime situation, but back in the country they say that this budget must not be supported. They are utter cowards not to support this budget. [Applause.]]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it Parliamentary for the hon member to refer to the official opposition in such unflattering terms? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Bloem, could you just translate what you said? [Interjections.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Mevrou die Speaker, hy is die eerste lafaard na wie ek verwys het. [Madam Speaker, he is the first coward I referred to.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! No, could you just say what you said?

Mr D V BLOEM: Ek het gesê … [I said …]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Moenie lelik wees nie. Ons is groot vriende. Moet nou nie lelik wees nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Do not be nasty. We are great friends. Do not be nasty now. [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Gibson, please let the hon member answer my question. [Interjections.] Please take your seat. Hon Bloem, please take the podium and proceed.

Mr D V BLOEM: Wat ek gesê het, is dat lafaards teen hierdie begroting gaan stem, en ek glo nie dit is onparlementêr om te sê dat hierdie party ‘n groep lafaards is nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I said that cowards are going to vote against this budget, and I do not think that it is unparliamentary to say that this party consists of a bunch of cowards. [Interjections.]]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, may I address you?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! No, hon member, you asked whether it was unparliamentary for the hon member to refer to the Opposition party in such unflattering language. He says he referred to the DP as ``cowards’’, right? [Interjections.] I really would like to examine the Hansard before I decide on this one. [Interjections.] Being a coward is something very human and so I really wish to look at the Hansard to make up my mind whether it is unparliamentary or not.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Thank you, Madam. I abide by that ruling. May I raise another point of order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Another point of order? Mr D H M GIBSON: Yes, the other point of order is that after that this hon member said I was the first one of the cowards and he pointed straight at me. [Interjections.] Because if the hon member does not admit that, then he is unfortunately a liar. [Interjections.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Mevrou die Speaker, ek het gesê die lid lyk soos ‘n coward''. Hy is nie 'ncoward’’ nie. [Interjections.] [Madam Speaker, I said that the member looks like a coward. He is not a coward. [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please take your seats! Please take your seats! Hon Bloem, please, if you did refer to the hon member as ``the first coward’’, would you withdraw that? [Interjections.] I am waiting on you.

Mr M J ELLIS: Be a man.

Mr D V BLOEM: Ek is al lankal ‘n man. Ek trek daardie woorde terug, want ek is ‘n man. [I have been a man for a long time now. I withdraw those words, because I am a man.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please take your seats. I have four members of the ruling party on their feet. Please take your seats, hon members. Hon members, we are going to be here beyond midnight. Are you aware of that. [Interjections.] I just want to remind you. [Interjections.] Order! I just want to remind members that our programme already takes us beyond midnight. [Interjections.] And therefore, really, I do not think it is fair that we waste our time on just bickering about who said what. I am still going to rule on the question of whether or not hon Bloem was unparliamentary in what he said. I am still going to rule on that and I would like us to proceed.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, a real point of order! In his concluding remarks hon Mr Gibson said: If he said so, then he is a liar.'' That is quite clear. One does not need an interpretation and I ask him to withdraw that the hon memberis a liar’’.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Gibson, the hon member has already withdrawn his words, so I would like you please to withdraw unconditionally and not to waste our time.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I do so with the greatest of pleasure. [Laughter.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Thank you. Let us now go back to Vote No 6 - Correctional Services.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 281: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Belot, S T; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa- Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba- Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; September, C C; September, R K; Serote, M W; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smit, H A; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Deventer, F J; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.

NOES - 33: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Singh, A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.

Vote No 6 accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 7 - Defence - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr A J BOTHA: Madam Speaker, our soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen, and medics could face one of the toughest military missions ever, should the military be deployed in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Because of this, there is no more appropriate time than now to take a hard look at the SA National Defence Force.

Because of year-on-year budget cuts and the imperatives of providing jobs to the party faithful, the military preparedness of the SA National Defence Force has been devastated. The Defence Force’s full-time component is unable to maintain adequate border protection because of budget cuts. The South African Army can man only 12 of its 148 Rooikat armoured vehicles, and the South African part-time component is unable to give adequate support to the SA Police Service, particularly in the rural areas, because of budget cuts. Only 15% of the Defence Force’s part-time component vehicles are serviceable.

Rather than a professional military, we have a form of armed welfare where soldiers lie idle in barracks, aircraft remain in hangars and ships lie alongside in harbours. The hon the Minister should note that we have a situation where we are spending huge amounts on new equipment while funds to use our existing manpower, even on old equipment and existing equipment, is lacking. For this reason, the DP cannot support the Defence budget of R13,7 billion for the 2000-2001 financial year.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, the IFP believes that the Government must make more concerted efforts to address the difficulties within the Defence Force that have arisen as a result of misunderstandings between personnel from different cultural backgrounds. The tragic killing at the Tempe military base in the Free State reinforced the IFP’s view that a much greater effort must be made to ensure that effective intercultural education is provided to members of the Defence Force. We must teach all personnel to understand and respect each other’s traditions.

Retrenchments must also be tackled sensitively. The need to reduce overall force levels is well understood, but I urge that this should be done with great caution, particularly with regard to the proposed employment initiative retrenchments. To turn large numbers of trained military personnel out onto the street without alternative employment could add significantly to the crime crisis which we already face in South Africa. Force levels can surely be managed down through natural attrition, rather than compulsory retrenchments. Tragically, the incidence of HIV/Aids in our armed forces suggests that many personnel will be retiring early over the coming years. It would be more sensitive to conduct proper research to assess the likely effect of HIV/Aids before the employment initiative retrenchment plan is adopted.

The IFP will support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr H A SMIT: Madam Speaker …

Mr J H MOMBERG: Hier kom Hernus Kriel nommer 2! [Here comes Hernus Kriel number 2!]

Mr H A SMIT: Mevrou die Speaker, daardie agb lid sal my nog altyd by die Nuwe NP kry. Ek loop nie agter Hernus Kriel aan nie. [Gelag.] [Madam Speaker, that hon member will always find me in the New NP. I do not follow Hernus Kriel. [Laughter.]]

The SANDF is a proud and important arm of our public sector. [Interjections.] Anyone who plans to harm this arm will meet with serious resistance from the New NP. [Interjections.] I regard the SANDF as an institution that should be above petty party politics. I seriously hope that the DP will take this statement to heart. [Interjections.]

Our Defence budget is, of course, underfunded. I believe that it is of the utmost importance to try to achieve the ideal rightsizing of 70 000 personnel as agreed upon in the Defence Review. We must get a satisfactory ruling regarding certain expenses, such as our involvement during the Mozambique general elections. We will fulfil our duty as an opposition party to criticise if necessary, but hon members will never have to doubt our loyalty when it comes to this proud force. We will vote for the adoption of the Defence budget.

Lastly, on behalf of my leader and my party, I want to express our sincere gratitude to all members of the SANDF who participated in the much-needed rescue and humanitarian aid operations in South Africa and Mozambique during the recent floods and fires that devastated so many parts of our region. The SANDF rescued nearly 15 000 people and delivered more than 7 500 tons of food, medical and emergency supplies to people in need in both South Africa and Mozambique. In conclusion, one can always find reasons to criticise, but the SANDF is, in the famous words, simply the best. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I thought that it would only be proper for the hon member to talk of the SANDF, not the SADF. [Laughter.]

Mr H A SMIT: The South African National Defence Force! Thank you, Minister. [Interjections.]

Mr M E MABETA: Madam Speaker, we support this Vote. Our support follows a process of in-depth discussions and briefing by the department on the various aspects of the transformation programme by the department and the management of the SANDF. We would wish the following aspects to be addressed. The first is the clarification of the restructuring process and the relevant arrangements made to offset the impact of this on those who end up being retrenched from the Defence Force.

We also request that adherence to the White Paper review on Defence be established. We further request that the special sensitivities of all soldiers from the formerly disadvantaged communities, who largely occupy the lowest ranks in their divisions, be addressed. We also request that the special civic education programme, aimed at the reconciliation of the different cultures from the statutory forces and nonstatutory forces, should be supported, so that, as the country as a whole addresses such issues as racism and language issues, the SANDF is not left behind. We also request that the role played by the Secretary for Defence and his relationship to Parliament be further discussed and clarified. We also request that the role played by Parliament be further enhanced by continued communication between the Department of Defence and the various committees that deal with issues of defence.

In conclusion, I would like to commend and thank the Minister of Defence for the respectful and dignified manner in which he has treated the Portfolio Committee on Defence.

Adv Z L MADASA: Somlomo, umbutho we-ACDP ufuna ukuvakalisa inkxalabo ngeenquleqhu neenzame zoMphathiswa zokurhwebelana namaTshayina ngezixhobo. [Uwele-wele.] Asilwali urhwebelano namaTshayina. Wonke umntu uyarhwebelana nawo nangona kukhalazwa ngamalungelo oluntu kulaa ndawo. AmaMelika namaYurophu nawo ayarhwebelana neTshayina. Kodwa sithi kuMphathiswa, phambi kokuba enze olu rhwebelwano makasazise siyikomiti ukuze sazi ukuba yintoni le ayenzayo nala maTshayina.

Okokugqibela ndithi, eyona nkxalabo ingamandla kolu rhwebelwano namaTshayina kukuba sirhwebelana nawo ngezixhobo ngexesha apho simele uxolo eAfrika. Loo nto ke ithanda ukungqubana kwaye iyaxhalabisa. Nangona ndithethe oku kungentla, siyavumelana nevoti yeZokhuselo. (Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)

[Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, the ACDP would like to express its concern regarding the endeavours of the Minister of Trade and Industry to enter into an arms deal with the Chinese. [Interjections.] We are not against trade with the Chinese. Everybody trades with them even though there are complaints about human rights abuses in China. Americans and Europeans also trade with China. However, we are saying to the Minister that before concluding this deal, he must first inform us as a committee so that we know what it is that he is doing with the Chinese.

Finally, our main concern about this arms deal with the Chinese is that it comes at a time when we are standing for peace in Africa. That is rather ironic and a cause for concern. Be that as it may, we support the Defence Vote.]

Genl C L VILJOEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, hoe kan ek nou teen verdediging stem! Verdediging was nog altyd ‘n onderwerp vir konsensus. Die Minister het belowe om dit so te hou. Daar is kritiek wat ons kan uitspreek, maar ek wil begin deur te sê daar is tog redes waarom ons hierdie begrotingspos sal steun.

Eerstens het die Minister saam met die SANW daarin geslaag om die Weermag professioneel en lojaal te hou teenoor die land sodat hulle hul plig gedoen het. Hulle het onlangs ook baie goed gepresteer tydens die oorstromings in Mosambiek. Die Minister het sy bes gedoen om die hoë professionele standaarde in die Weermag tydens die moeilike proses van oorgang te handhaaf.

Verder het die SA Nasionale Weermag vandag ‘n spesifieke rol in Suid- Afrika, veral as ons sien hoe oorlog in baie gevalle om ons besig is om oor te spoel na die aangrensende lande. Ons is nie noodwendig hiervan gevrywaar nie. Dan is daar ‘n kommandostelsel in die Weermag wat baie belangrike en nuttige werk kan doen om veral die moorde op boere teen te werk. As die kommandostelsel goed befonds en gebruik word, kan dit gebeur.

Daar is egter ook kritiek. Ek dink die onoordeelkundige en lomp hantering van die Lesotho-operasie het lank geneem. Die laaste mense is onlangs eers daar onttrek. Lesotho sal nie die rekening kan betaal nie. Ons sal dit moet betaal. Die inwoners van Lesotho is nou vyande van Suid-Afrika, en dit vorm ‘n nuwe grensbedreiging vir ons.

Die dissipline in die Weermag is nie op standaard nie, en dit wil kort-kort lyk asof daar ook probleme met die samehorigheid is. Meriete is nie die hoofkriterium van die aanstellings nie. Dit raak die moraal in die Weermag, en dit laat politieke aanstellings deurglip wat dan weer in die naam van transformasie deurgevoer word. In die geheel gesien is die VF egter bereid om hierdie begrotingspos te steun. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Mr Chairperson, how can I vote against Defence! Defence has always been a subject for consensus. The Minister has promised to keep it that way. There are aspects which we can criticise, but I want to start by saying that there are reasons why we will support this Vote.

Firstly, the Minister and the SANDF have managed to keep the Defence Force professional and loyal to the country, with the result that they did their duty. Recently they also performed very well during the floods in Mozambique. The Minister has done his best to maintain the high professional standards in the Defence Force during the difficult process of transformation.

Furthermore, the SA National Defence Force has a specific role in South Africa at present, especially when we see how wars around us are in many cases spreading to neighbouring countries. We are not necessarily safeguarded against this. Then there is a commando system in the Defence Force which can do very important and useful work to counteract the murdering of farmers in particular. If the commando system is properly financed and utilised, it can happen.

However, there is also criticism. I think the injudicious and clumsy handling of the Lesotho operation took too long. The last people have only recently been withdrawn there. Lesotho will not be able to pay the account. We will have to pay it. The inhabitants of Lesotho are now enemies of South Africa, and this now poses a new border threat to us.

The discipline in the Defence Force is not up to standard, and every now and then it appears as if there are problems with regard to solidarity. Merit is not the main criterion for appointments. This has an impact on morale in the Defence Force and political appointments slip through, which are then implemented in the name of transformation. However, as a whole the FF is prepared to support this Vote.]

Ms T R MODISE: Chairperson, the ANC will definitely be supporting this Vote. It is necessary for us to remember that we all agreed on a balanced, modern, technologically advanced defence force. It is also necessary to remember that a few weeks ago we were all proud of the Defence Force. We were all in tears over and enraptured by the pictures we saw on our TVs.

That better consideration should be given to rationalisation and retrenchment is a fact, and we will do that. We do not see why that should be brought here as an issue and used to reject the budget. Therefore, there is absolutely no basis for the rejection as outlined by the DP. We definitely support the budget. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, order! There is a lot of speaking and laughing on this side of the House. Please keep quiet.

Vote No 7 agreed to (Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 8 - Education - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr R S NTULI: Chairperson, the DP cannot support the Education Vote for the following reasons. Firstly, the entire education system, as we all know, from the primary education sector to the higher education sector is in a dysfunctional state in terms of management and delivery. This is reflected by the following poor performance indicators. The management and implementation of Curriculum 2005 in Grades 1, 2, 3 and 7, as reviewed by the Curriculum Review Commission recently, were found to be painfully inept.

The ethos and general discipline in many schools, especially in the previously disadvantaged communities, as regards both teachers and learners, is a matter of great concern and needs serious redress. The overall effect of these glaring shortcomings is the chronically poor performance of learners as reflected by the perennially poor matric results over six years in the historically disadvantaged schools. [Interjections.] The late delivery of textbooks and other learning materials contributes to the poor performance of the learners.

The situation in higher education is also no cause for comfort. Financial mismanagement of several of these institutions is too common. Student unrest in these institutions is on the increase. We submit that the performance audit of the department remains dismal, to say the least, despite numerous noble pronouncements by the energetic Minister, Kader Asmal, which we salute. The DP, therefore, cannot support the Vote. [Interjections.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Mr Chairman, the IFP enthusiastically supports this Vote. In saying that, we are also quite puzzled and dismayed by the fact that if education is jointly and severally controlled by the Minister and the MECs in the provinces, the vote of the DP - which is a negative vote - must also then imply a negative vote against Minister Helen Zille and what she is attempting to do in the Western Cape, because it cannot be the responsibility of the one Minister and not of the other. The fact also remains that the cruellest injustice perpetrated against the people of this land was in the form of the denial of education over a very long period of time.

Restitution has begun, and we are only six years into this process. We wish to salute those who are at the helm of education, who have taken us from those dark days and age when our children had almost a kind of intellectual holocaust perpetrated against them. That is how serious the situation was. This denial has to be corrected and we believe that by, jointly and together, taking education out of the political arena we can constructively support the growth of education for the benefit of our children.

We wish to argue very strongly that as a form of restitution of mathematics and science education, in particular, which the black child in this country was denied, we must begin to employ extra resources in this important area in order to have a skills base from which our economy can continue to grow. We also feel that the tradition of hard work and good discipline, which the IFP supports, must permeate education in order that we should succeed in this area. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Adv A H GAUM: Chairperson, the New NP has considered voting for this budget, because Minister Asmal has taken a number of sensible steps which may very well improve the education situation in our country in good time. He has even allowed the review committee to slaughter the ANC’s sacred cow, Curriculum 2005. But we have decided otherwise, because it is this Government that created a curriculum which was doomed to failure and which was forced down the throats of educators and learners despite our warnings from the outset that it would not work.

Millions of rands of taxpayers’ money has been thrown into yet another bottomless ANC pit. Thousands of children have fallen victim to a failed social experiment. Millions of rands in this budget will still be wasted on Curriculum 2005, before it is eventually overtaken by Curriculum 21. There is widespread uncertainty on the phasing out of the old and the implementation of the new curriculum. The first sign of a looming new crisis is that many publishers are once again at their wits’ end, because textbooks for Grades 4 and 8 have already been printed. The publishers are about to sustain heavy losses, because the books are probably going to be useless. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: [Inaudible.]

Adv A H GAUM: That is true, Mr Minister, that is true! This will lead to more expensive textbooks and more problems with textbook supplies next year. We cannot see how this budget will help to implement Minister Asmal’s flagship plan Tirisano. We support Tirisano but do not believe that it will succeed if the Government is not committed to financing it.

We have serious doubts about the Government’s sincerity about the promotion of mother-tongue education, notwithstanding the direct correlation between the availability or otherwise of mother-tongue education and achievement. If the Government intends to reach equity in education, then the vehicles for communicating thought, developing cognitive skills and engaging with the content of the curriculum need to be brought to the surface. Hiding from or dodging the language issue is not a useful way of planning for success. Mr S J DE BEER: Mr Chairperson, the UDM will support the Education Vote.

Wanneer ons dit sê, wil ons egter nie daarmee sê dat ons volkome gelukkig is met wat op die oomblik op die onderwysterrein gebeur nie. Daar is baie aspekte wat pla. Wanneer ons kyk na die skoletoneel, dan blyk dit dat daar ‘n groeiende onrustigheid is. Ook ten opsigte van ons tersiêre inrigtings is daar ‘n groeiende onrustigheid.

Onderwys in sekere gebiede, veral in die verre platteland waar die parlementêre portefeuljekomitee ook onlangs ‘n besoek gebring het, is inderdaad op die rand van ineenstorting. Die onrus wat besig is om toe te neem in sekere skole is ‘n kommerwekkende faktor. Die hantering van Kurrikulum 2005 het veel te wense oorgelaat.

Ons moet egter ook die positiewe dinge raaksien. Dit is miskien in die tyd waarin ons lewe meer belangrik om die positiewe dinge raak te sien as om oor alles negatief te wil wees. Daar is op die oomblik duisende hardwerkende, entoesiastiese onderwysers. Ons sal vir die onderwysers wat pligsgetrou hulle werk doen, sê ons ondersteun hulle, en ons sal hulle moet aanmoedig om hierdie taak te verrig. Dit is ons taak om nie vas te steek by die verlede nie. Ons mag in hierdie tye nie van die onderwys ‘n politieke speelbal maak nie. Om onderwys te laat slaag in hierdie tydsgewrig moet ‘n uitdaging wees vir alle regdenkende Suid-Afrikaners, en daarom sal die UDM hierdie begrotingspos heelhartig steun. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[However, in saying that, we are not saying that we are entirely happy with what is currently happening in the sphere of education. There are many aspects which are cause for concern. When we look at schools, it becomes apparent that there is a growing uneasiness. Also with regard to our tertiary institutions there is a growing uneasiness.

Education in certain areas, particularly in the isolated rural areas which the parliamentary portfolio committee also recently visited, is indeed on the verge of collapse. The uneasiness which is on the increase in certain schools is an alarming factor. The handling of Curriculum 2005 left a lot to be desired.

However, we must also recognise the positive things. It is perhaps more important in the times in which we live to recognise the positive things than to want to be negative about everything. There are currently thousands of hardworking, enthusiastic teachers. We want to say to the teachers who do their jobs diligently that we support them, and we will have to encourage them to carry out this task.

It is our task not to remain stuck in the past. In these times we must not turn education into a political football. To enable education to succeed at this juncture must be a challenge for all right-minded South Africans, and for that reason the UDM wholeheartedly supports this Vote.]

Mr L M GREEN: Mr Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, the ACDP supports this Vote, despite our reservations, because we believe Minister Asmal, being a new Minister of Education, deserves a chance to prove himself.

We are also mindful that the Minister has inherited a difficult Ministry with many problems, and we should not be quick to judge him and his Ministry. We recognise his sincere attempts, firstly, to address the low teacher morale in all communities; secondly, to address the problems of management and administration in our schools, universities and colleges; and thirdly, to address the poor quality of learning in our schools.

The national mobilisation of education and training under the slogan Tirisano, for us, is also commendable, and we pray that Minister Asmal will succeed where his predecessor struggled with this Ministry. A vote against this Vote would, I think, send a message of no confidence in our teachers and in our pupils, and therefore we support this Vote.

Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, daar is algemene konsensus dat onderwys tans een van die grootste probleme in Suid-Afrika is. Die Minister het ‘n reusetaak aangepak, en ons sê vir hom baie sterkte met die verrigting daarvan. Die Minister het besluit om realisties oor Kurrikulum 2005 te wees. Dit het moed gekos, en ons gee hom graag erkenning daarvoor dat hy die foute van sy voorganger begin regstel.

In my toespraak tydens die begrotingspos het ek volledig uitgebrei oor hoe belangrik moedertaalonderrig is, nie as ‘n VF-beginsel nie, maar as ‘n universeel aanvaarde onderwysbeginsel orals in die wêreld op primêre vlak, op sekondêre vlak en op tersiêre onderwysvlak. Dit bly vir my wreed - en ek het sulke voorbeelde in my omgewing - om ‘n graad 4-Sotho- of -Zulukind te sien wat skielik deur medium van Engels moet leer, en om die onsekerheid te sien as daardie kind dit moet deurgaan. Ek verstaan dit nie.

Suid-Afrika het 22 universiteite, en die VF het reeds vier jaar gelede voorgestel dat ten minste twee van hierdie universiteite erkenning kry as universiteite wat hoofsaaklik Afrikaans as onderrigtaal gebruik, anders gaan daar op die lang termyn nie één kan oorleef as ‘n mens die getalleprojeksies maak nie. Tot nou het ons geen sukses hiermee gehad nie.

Afrikaanse staatskole maak minder as 5% uit van alle staatskole in Suid- Afrika. Tans word meer en meer Afrikaanse staatskole jaarliks dubbel- en parallelmediumskole, om kort daarna dan alleenlik Engelse skole te word. Dit is vir ons onverstaanbaar en onaanvaarbaar. Terwyl artikel 23 in die Grondwet wel enkelmediumskole moontlik maak, lyk dit egter asof daar geleidelik nie daaraan voldoen word nie. Die VF sal teen hierdie begrotingspos stem. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairperson, there is general consensus that education is currently one of the biggest problems in South Africa. The Minister has tackled an enormous task, and we wish him everything of the best in performing it. The Minister has decided to be realistic about Curriculum

1. This took courage, and we would like to recognise that he is beginning to correct the mistakes of his predecessor.

In my speech during the discussion of his Vote I elaborated comprehensively on how important mother-tongue education is, not as a FF principle, but as a universally accepted education principle everywhere in the world at primary, secondary and tertiary levels of education. To me it remains cruel

• and I have such examples in my area - to see a Grade 4 Sotho or Zulu child who suddenly has to learn in the medium of English, and to see the uncertainty when that child has to do so. I do not understand it.

South Africa has 22 universities, and four years ago already the FF proposed that at least two of these universities receive recognition as universities which primarily use Afrikaans as the medium of instruction, otherwise in the long term not one will be able to survive if one does the numerical projections. Up to now we have had no success in this regard.

Afrikaans state schools comprise less than 5% of all state schools in South Africa. Currently more and more Afrikaans state schools are annually becoming dual and parallel-medium schools, shortly after that to then become solely English schools. To us this is inexplicable and unacceptable. Although section 23 of the Constitution does indeed make provision for single-medium schools, it would appear however that this is gradually not being complied with. The FF will vote against this Vote.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, I want to state briefly why the AEB cannot support the Education Vote, despite a very energetic Minister doing his best. I want to mention a few points. Firstly, the funding of private schools is in practice zero, and that must be looked at. Secondly, the ideology of the education system is not neutral. It has more and more signs of a New Age ideology in which our children cannot be at home. Together with that, I think that our children are being deprived of the right to education according to the ethos, belief and culture of their homes. Then a large amount of money was wasted with the Curriculum 2005 experiment, despite the warnings from this side of the House that it would not work. We extend our congratulations to the Minister for seeing that it could not work and accept the aanbevelings van die komitee. [recommendations of the committee.]

School governing bodies were deprived of a lot of their jurisdiction, with the adoption of the education amending Bills. Then, I think the suggestion

• I think it was from the Minister - that a means test may be used for paying for textbooks will be quite impractical. It will be impossible to do that and is a deviation from free education as stipulated.

Laastens is daar toestande in die onderwys in die Noordelike Provinsie waar ek vandaan kom, sowel administratief as logistiek, wat hoegenaamd nie na wense is nie. Die AEB wens die Minister baie sterkte toe met sy moeilike taak, maar vir hierdie rondte sal hy nog ons magtige stem moet ontbeer. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Lastly there are conditions in education in the Northern Province, which is where I come from, both administratively and logistically, which are not at all as they should be. The AEB wishes the Minister everything of the best with his difficult task, but for this round he will still have to do without our vote.]

Prof S M MAYATULA: Chairperson …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, both to my left and my right, you are speaking rather too loudly. I agree you might be tired, but I think you can still lower your voices.

Prof S M MAYATULA: Chairperson, hon members, the ANC supports this Vote. Even if what the members of the DP are saying, namely that the entire education system is dysfunctional, there is late delivery of textbooks, student unrest etc were true, I do not understand how not voting for this Vote will make things better.

As we accept and support this Vote, we are mindful of the problems and conditions under which our people work due to the legacy of apartheid. Some have no classrooms, no toilets, no offices in which they can talk to their people, no water, the basic necessities of education. Though we know that, we must also understand that 21% of the budget of this country goes to education. In the provinces, 85% of the budget goes to education, health and welfare. Basically this means that we are contributing as much as we can as far as education is concerned.

This Government has taken many strides to turn the education system around. The country is abuzz with Tirisano, where everybody is giving a hand, both in cash and in kind. We must also commend the international community that is working with us in these areas.

The norms and standards for funding are biased towards poor schools in order to improve them. An amount of R1,5 billion has been set aside for building schools. The Financial and Fiscal Commission has put proposals that are going to be changing, so that we are able to take along the backlogs. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 247: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, F F; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kekana, N N; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, G L; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Masala, M M; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, E G; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.

NOES - 52: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Viljoen, C L; Waters, M.

Vote No 8 accordingly agreed to.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! We now come to Vote No 9 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism. There are no requests for declarations in respect of this Vote. I now put the question. Are there any objections to the Vote being adopted?

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt, sir.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Yes, Mr Ellis.

Mr M J ELLIS: With regard to the Education Vote, I cannot believe that there were only 41 people who voted against it. There are 30 people, at least, in the DP. The New NP voted against it. How do you get to 41, sir? [Interjections.]

Mr J H MOMBERG: [Inaudible.]

Mr M J ELLIS: I beg your pardon, Mr Momberg? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Mr Mike Ellis, I am advised that there were an additional six members who brought their cards for the noes, therefore 47 members voted no. [Interjections.] Order!

Mr M J ELLIS: I would like to say with respect, sir, that that is still not correct. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, according to our records, there should be at least 56 or 57 people who voted against the Vote, not 41 or 47. [Interjections.] There is something wrong, sir. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I am in charge in the House. I am going to repeat the division to put an end to all this arguing. [Interjections.] Order! Hon members, let us vote again on Vote No 8, please. [Interjections.] Order! Dr B G MBULAWA-HANS: Chairperson, I am concerned because the DP had not raised their concern about the numbers. I do not think it is fair to this House that we should repeat the division. The DP did not have this questioned, so why now with the Education Vote? I think it is unfair that this House should be subjected to that type of thing. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.]

Take your seat, Mr Ellis. Order, hon members! Take your seat, hon Mlangeni.

Mr A MLANGENI: I cannot hear you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: You cannot hear me?

Mr A MLANGENI: Yes, you are inaudible. Mr Chairperson, could you have the sound system checked please?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Could the mikes be fixed please? Not Mike Ellis, my mikes here. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Can you hear me now?

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I think we have got this sorted out now. I now have the results in writing. I have 13 abstentions. [Interjections.] Order! Some of those abstentions come from the opposition parties, which could be added to the noes. I think then I have got … [Inaudible.] [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, are you saying that all 13 abstentions will be added to the no-votes? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes.

Mr M J ELLIS: Thank you. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Let me just correct that. Not all of them, Mr Ellis, because some of them have already brought their cards here. Some of them will be added to the no-votes. [Interjections.] Order!

Mr M RAMGOBIN: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order, and to help the House: If the DP so wishes, I think it would be possible for us to reveal from the papers there who has voted for and who has voted against. Perhaps it would be a good thing for the DP to know, and to expose them.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The matter is now settled.

Vote No 9 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put and agreed to.

Vote No 10 - Finance - put and agreed to.

Vote No 11 - Foreign Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr C W EGLIN: Mr Chairperson, the DP will be supporting this Vote, but, as a cautious opposition party, it will certainly have certain reservations and concerns.   The role of South Africa in international affairs has grown enormously. Today, our country enjoys a status as an important international player amongst the medium-sized nations of the developing world. This is a plus for our country and we congratulate the department on it. However, we must realise that, in due course, our success will be judged not on the status that we enjoy or accolades that we receive, but on the harsh realities of results and delivery. On that issue, the jury is still out.

While the role and responsibility of the department have been expanding, its budget in real terms has been shrinking, and that has placed tremendous strain on the personnel of the department. In these difficult circumstances they have done extraordinarily well, displaying skill, expertise and a deep commitment to a democratic South Africa.

The department has recently announced that it intends launching a new process of departmental transformation. The DP believes that in doing so, the sterling work that has been done by the personnel under the guidance of the previous director-general should be recognised and built upon. We believe that the transformation that is required by the Constitution should be achieved by creating new opportunities, developing new skills, and augmenting existing skills and expertise, and not merely by discarding the old ones.

We have one serious concern, and that is that South Africa’s commitment to advancing human rights, which was the cornerstone of its foreign policy during the Mandela presidency, appears to have been put on the backburner in favour of tactical expediency. [Time expired.]

Rev K M ZONDI: Chairperson, in voicing our support for the Foreign Affairs Vote, we would like to highlight the following issues. Firstly, in view of exchange rate fluctuations against the rand, a situation which severely undermines and erodes this department’s budget, we appeal once again to the Minister of Finance, as we did during the debate on the Vote of the department, to find creative ways to ensure that crucial programmes of the department are not jeopardised.

Secondly, in view of the new outbreak of conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo, we would like to see the department intensifying diplomatic efforts to ensure that the war does not escalate to the extent that the Lusaka agreement is severely undermined.

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson, the Department of Foreign Affairs is one of the best-managed departments in the Public Service. One of the reasons for this success story is undoubtedly the dedication of its officials in promoting the interests of South Africa worldwide. It is therefore regrettable that some of them were informed through the press that they have outstayed their welcome and hopefully the Minister of Foreign Affairs will put the whole process of transformation in perspective as soon as possible.

Indien die begroting, en vorige sprekers het daarna verwys, steeds afneem in reële terme, gaan hierdie belangrike departement in ‘n posisie beland waar hy nie meer operasioneel sal wees nie. Miskien moet daaraan aandag gegee word om die departement ten minste te vergoed vir die verlies in die wisselkoers. Die Nuwe NP steun die begrotingspos. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[If the budget, and previous speakers have referred to this, continues to be reduced in real terms, eventually this important department will be in a position in which it will no longer be operational. Perhaps attention should be given at least to compensating the department for the loss in the exchange rate. The New NP supports the Vote.]

Mr M E MABETA: Chairperson, the UDM supports this Vote. We will continue to criticise where appropriate, and we hope that the Minister of Foreign Affairs will respect this right in every instance where it is required. We will support and commend those actions and decisions that are in the best interests of our country.

We would like to make the point that we welcome the announcement by the director-general that his priority in the department is the transformation of the Department of Foreign Affairs. We are not aware of any commendable work done by the previous management of the Department of Foreign Affairs that can honestly be said by any South African to have adequately addressed the issue of transformation in the department.

It is unfortunate that when the director-general made this announcement that the department needed to be transformed and that he was committed to this, it was understood to be a deliberate, contrived agenda to sideline certain people. Every racial group, black, white or whatever in South Africa will be affected by the reconstruction of our state, our governmental institutions and any other structures in our society that have been put in place to achieve the objectives that have been entrenched in our Constitution and that were accepted by our people in the 1994 election. It is an unfortunate sideline that these efforts are racist. We wish to deliver by means of these methods. [Time expired.]

Dr Z P JORDAN: Mr Chairperson … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I see the ACDP here, but you sent me a note that you were not going to speak. Have you changed your mind now? [Interjections.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Mr Chairperson, I would like to state the fact that the last time we discussed the issue of sending a peacekeeping force to the DRC, I stated that there was no peace to be kept in the DRC. This morning, the Secretary-General of the UN stated that he was not prepared to send a peacekeeping force because fighting has resumed in the DRC.

I just want to state that, secondly, as the ACDP, we would like to urge the Minister of Foreign Affairs to speak out, unequivocally and clearly, wherever she goes, and promote the issue of human rights, as this country is known as a champion of human rights.

Lastly, I would like to state that we support the Vote, and also say that uMphathiswa unqabile [the Minister is scarce].

Dr Z P JORDAN: Mr Chairperson, the ANC supports this Vote. I think it is only the churlish and the wilfully blind who can dispute the fact that the status and standing of South Africa in the world today has radically changed from what it was before 1994.

Thanks to the efforts of the previous Minister and our current Minister, South Africa now is a respected place in the international community. Its voice is heard loud and clear in every part of the world and that voice is taken seriously.

In supporting this Vote, we want to commend the Minister of Foreign Affairs and her department for the sterling work they have done on behalf of our entire country. [Applause.]

Vote No 11 agreed to. Vote No 12 - Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 - Health - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs S V KALYAN: Mr Chairperson, the DP would be doing all South Africans, especially those persons who are HIV-positive or living with Aids, a great disservice by supporting the Health budget.

Drug-based treatment has been omitted from the national integrated plan for persons infected with and affected by Aids. The Minister has consistently avoided answering questions on this issue. We have heard her waffle about across-the-board, broad-spectrum drugs, but she hedges at committing specifically to antiretroviral medication.

Given that there is one Aids death every ten minutes, one would expect the Government to be pulling out all the stops in preparing to limit the damage that this pandemic poses to our country. Yet they continue to prevaricate. Despite standard opinion that the administration of AZT can protect the infant of an HIV-positive mother, that the price for AZT has been reduced, and it has been demonstrated that it is cheaper to protect the child than to treat the later effects of Aids, Government still vacillates as it queries possible side effects and the status of registration.

Economist Nicoli Nattrass says that funding a short course of AZT is 18 times cheaper than caring for a child with Aids with the average …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mrs S V KALYAN: The DP opposes the Health budget.

Dr K RAJOO: Mr Chairman, the IFP enthusiastically supports the Health Vote. In saying this, I would like to state that we understand the concern about Aids. Everybody understands it. The Minister also understands it, and she is doing sterling work in trying to combat Aids in our country.

We enthusiastically ask her to look at all possibilities as regards in the newest of medicines and education in respect of Aids. The Minister of Education is also helping the Minister of Health in schools, in educating our children, and that is a step in the right direction.

In the area of service delivery, we understand that the Minister is building clinics and crèches. We are happy that she is doing so. She should please look at the rural areas and dormitory townships, where hospitals are far apart and clinics are scarce. In those areas, where the poorest of our poor people need assistance, we need the Minister to build crèches and clinics.

The needy of our country, people who are welfare recipients, pensioners and unemployed, need medical aid. These are the people for whom these health clinics are needed. Today, under Dr Nkomo, the Portfolio Committee on Health adopted the SADC proposals and we now ask our Minister to look far beyond our borders. There are 119 million people in 14 SADC countries and she will also have to work with other Ministers. We support her and wish her well.

The IFP supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Dr S J GOUS: Mr Chairperson, there is a breath of fresh air blowing through the Department of Health in the form of our new Minister of Health. She has all our sympathy for the many problems she has to face, most of which, one must say, she has inherited. The Department of Health has succeeded in one of its major objectives in the transformation and restructuring of a highly fragmented department and this has been achieved under difficult circumstances. Quality service delivery is still lacking and it would appear that nobody is more aware of this than the Minister and the Department of Health themselves.

When we examine the conditions under which the Department of Health must operate, we find an almost unbearable load, especially due to violence and crime, which would include motor vehicle accidents, TB and Aids. None of these factors are of the department’s making and they are simply trying to cope as best they can.

There has been much criticism in respect of HIV/Aids, but when one examines the facts rationally the only thing the Department of Health is guilty of is allowing other departments, as well as the President, to hijack the issue under the guise of an integrated, multisectoral approach. We understand this concept and in fact we support the concept of a multisectoral approach, but, after all, HIV/Aids is primarily a disease and therefore the Department of Health should always be in control and under all circumstances dictate and co-ordinate policy.

Obviously this does not mean we have no criticism; in fact there are many things which we dealt with more thoroughly during the debate on the Vote. On balance, however, the department needs our support and encouragement and we do not enjoy seeing them suffer. Therefore we will support the Department of Health in this Vote. [Time expired.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, Ministers and members, the Government, and in particular the Department of Health, is continuing with the slaughter of unborn children in our hospitals and clinics, despite the opposition of the majority of South Africans to the legalisation of abortion. Time after time, we have stood up in this House and made declarations on the biblical world view in terms of which we believe that abortion is murder.

Recently, over the past two to three weeks, we have also seen opposition to the implementation of the policy of abortion. We have noticed that despite the acceptance of the legislation in this House, doctors, nurses and medical people have actually rejected the legislation on moral grounds. [Interjections.]

Mr J H MOMBERG: They are being paid by backstreet abortionists.

Mr L M GREEN: Let me finish, Jannie. On the issue of backstreet abortions, it has been found that there is no decrease in backstreet abortions since the introduction of this legislation. I therefore do not think the member’s argument is valid when we come to the issue of abortion. [Interjections.]

We as the ACDP cannot support this Vote because of the funding that will be used for the continuation of the destruction of unborn children. We are taking a moral position here and we are going to vote against this Vote.

Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek dink in hierdie Huis is daar konsensus oor hoe ernstig die probleem van vigs tans in Suid-Afrika is. As ons al ons probleme in ‘n ry plaas, sal dit waarskynlik die eerste of tweede probleem wees wat hierdie Regering moet aanspreek. Elke minuut word 11 mense wêreldwyd deur die vigsvirus besmet, waarvan 10 in Afrika is, en spesifiek suid van die Sahara woon. Dit is ‘n reusekrisis wat ‘n gesamentlike veldtog van ons almal nodig het. Die feit van die saak is dat dit niemand gaan oorslaan nie. Mense wat maklik dink dit gaan hulle nie raak op watter wyse ook al nie, maak ‘n groot fout as hulle dink die krisis gaan nie elkeen op die een of ander wyse raak nie. In Suid-Afrika lyk dit of die veldtog teen vigs nou wel begin momentum kry. Ons wil die departement gelukwens met wat gedoen is tot nou toe om die momentum aan die gang te kry.

Teen hierdie agtergrond van sukses is dit egter ‘n fout om nou skielik ‘n openbare debat oor die verwantskap tussen MIV en vigs aan die gang te sit, of dit nou van die departement of van watter kantoor af ook al kom. Hoekom is dit ‘n fout? Omdat die debat so tegnies is dat die gewone nie verstaan waaroor dit gaan nie. Wat is die resultaat daarvan? Dit is dat ons tans verwarring kry: is MIV werklik nou die oorsaak of nie? Sommige veldwerkers berig dat die jeug heel verstaanbaar sê, ``As die Regering twyfel of MIV vigs veroorsaak, waarom moet ons ons bekommer?’’, en dan begin hulle terugkeer na ou gewoontes. Jare se werk en miljoene rande word deur hierdie verwarring vernietig. Dit geld dan ook die konferensie wat onlangs gehou is om te luister na alternatiewe wetenskaplikes. Die harde feite is dat die geld wat daaraan gespandeer is genoeg middels sou kon koop om ongeveer 2 000 babas se lewe te red, en ons is oortuig dit sou beter aangewend wees daar as andersins.

Die VF gaan teen hierdie begrotingspos stem. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairperson, I think there is consensus in this House on how serious the Aids problem in South Africa is at present. If we arrange our problems chronologically, this would probably be the first or second problem which this Government must address.

Every minute 11 people worldwide are infected with the Aids virus, 10 of whom live in Africa, more specifically south of the Sahara. This is a major crisis which requires a joint campaign from all of us. The fact of the matter is that nobody will remain unaffected. People who think that they will not be affected by this in one way or another, are making a big mistake if they think the crisis is not going to affect all of us.

In South Africa it seems as if the campaign against Aids is now gaining momentum. We want to congratulate the department on what has been done thus far to get the process started.

However, against this background of success it is a mistake now suddenly to launch a public debate about the relationship between HIV and Aids, whether it was initiated by the department or any other office. Why is it a mistake? Because the debate is so technical that ordinary people do not understand what it is about. What is the result of that? It is the confusion we are experiencing at present: is HIV really the cause or not? Some field workers report that the youth are saying, understandably, ``If the Government is uncertain whether HIV causes Aids, why should we be concerned?’’, and they then revert to old habits. Years of work and millions of rands are wasted through this confusion.

This also applies to the conference which was held recently to listen to alternative scientists. The hard facts are that the money that was spent on that, would have been enough to buy enough drugs to save the lives of approximately 2 000 babies, and we are convinced that it would have been better served there than elsewhere.

The FF will vote against this Vote.]

Dr A S NKOMO: Mr Chairperson, there is no way that the ANC cannot support this Health Vote. As the Minister has indicated, the bulk of the supplementary estimates will go towards the HIV/Aids programmes - R16 million is being allocated as conditional grants to the provinces, and R20 million to the national department for programmes such as health promotion, voluntary counselling and testing, and the training of lay persons in home- based care and nursing. The main budget allocation goes to promoting equity in health through the establishment of health systems and the primary health care approach - all of which are ANC policies.

We would be like Satans … [Interjections.] Yes, Satans! That member should listen to what a certain famous sportsperson is saying these days - Satan!

We would be like Satans if we voted against this Health budget, because we would be removing from the mouths of hungry babies food that is provided through the integrated health system. We do not intend to be such Satans. Also, what would we be saying to the millions of pregnant mothers and children under the age of six years who are receiving free health care in the health services? We would be like Satans if we did that. [Interjections.]

But more than that, there are the hopes of millions of people who are waiting for answers from the Minister about what we are doing, about the definitive treatment of HIV/Aids. At the moment we are providing treatment against opportunistic diseases, to help these women and mothers who are faced with this lethal disease.

If one can look at Europe, people there are dealing with a disease which wears the face of a chronic illness: a person living with HIV/Aids can live for 10 to 15 years. We are living with people who are dying by the minute. Maybe there are some people here who are running undertaker businesses and want to benefit from that!

We will support this Vote. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided.

AYES - 271: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabudafhasi, T R; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Mahlangu, G L; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa- Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smit, H A; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Deventer, F J; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Woods, G G; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G. NOES - 42: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Mabeta, M E; Madasa, Z L; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Singh, A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Viljoen, C L; Waters, M.

Vote No 13 accordingly agreed to.

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, on a point of order: According to one of the members on that side, there are now 42 Satans in this House. [Laughter.] As there are people who voted against this, it means that that was an insult. Would the member now withdraw his statement? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I did not hear you, hon member.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, I said that they have got Hansie Cronjé voting on their side. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That is not a point of order, Mr Aucamp.

Vote 14 - Home Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the Department of Home Affairs is treated by the ANC very similarly to how Cinderella was treated by her stepmother - expected to do all the work with basically no resources. In my budget speech, I outlined several examples where the department is being underfunded, and some of these were that 1 200 officers are required to police the eight million illegal people in this country.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members! All members, please be seated. [Interjections.] Hon member!

Mr M WATERS: Yes? The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Please resume your seat. I am waiting for all hon members to be seated. We are dealing with the declarations of vote, and it is an important function of Parliament. This is not the place to be frivolous. Please continue, sir.

Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chairperson.

In my my budget speech, I outlined several examples where the department is being underfunded. Some of these examples are that 1 200 officers are required to police the 8 million illegal immigrants in this country. The department has only 325 officers. The Airports Company Limited was forced to employ 15 people itself in order to prevent the total collapse of passport control at Cape Town International Airport. The IEC is underfunded by a staggering 54,91% for the local government elections.

To add insult to injury, the ANC-dominated Cabinet forced the department to appeal against the case of the National Coalition for Gay and Lesbian Equality. This case cost taxpayers R862 000, which is about three times the total budget for litigation.

Another area where the ANC has set the department up for failure is through the invalidation of non-barcoded IDs. The department will be flooded with 900 000 applications. It might make perfect sense that we should all have the same sort of ID, but one must bear in mind that the new smart card system is to be phased in during the last quarter of next year at great expense to taxpayers. Why not then simply suggest that every person without a barcoded ID be the first to apply for the new smart card system, instead of putting additional strain on the department?

When the ANC starts taking the Department of Home Affairs seriously and stops treating it like a stepchild, then only will the DP take the ANC seriously by supporting the budget. Until then, the DP will oppose this budget.

Prince N E ZULU: Chairperson, the IFP supports this Vote and wishes to express a concern that the department’s budget has been showing a tendency to decline over the years, including this year. That tendency accounts for staff shortages and long queues at the Home Affairs offices.

The Department of Home Affairs is a service provider for well over 40 million South Africans and many more other nationals from all over the world who have different statuses. There are those who seek permanent residence, those who come as visitors, those who seek asylum and those who are undocumented immigrants. Presently, the department is crafting an international immigration law which is intended to attract to this country people with skills and capital to help the economy.

The Department of Home Affairs needs to be given the fiscal muscle to service that class of people when the time comes. That Bill is considered a world-class piece of legislation. It is going to surprise hon members if they are spared long enough to realise its economic spin-offs.

We support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mnr I J PRETORIUS: Geagte Voorsitter, die Nuwe NP gaan teen die begroting stem, omdat die departement mank gaan aan doeltreffende administrasie en beheer.

Dit is veral die onthulling oor die gebrek aan doeltreffende administrasie en beheer oor die staatsdrukker in Umtata wat ons beweeg het om teen die begrotingspos te stem. Die direkteur-generaal van die departement het op 5 Junie vanjaar die Portefeuljekomitee oor Binnelandse Sake ingelig dat die staatsdrukker in Umtata laas in 1995 gefunksioneer het. Dit kos die belastingbetaler na raming R11 miljoen per jaar. Dit is ‘n saak wat onmiddellik reggestel moet word.

Ek het egter persoonlik simpatie met die agb Minister, want die departement kry nie genoeg geld om behoorlik te funksioneer nie. Die OVK is ‘n goeie voorbeeld. Die departement kry ook nie genoeg geld om personeelvakatures aan te vul nie. Die agb Minister is egter ‘n harde werker en die volgende uitspraak van Abraham Lincoln is dus nie op hom van toepassing nie. Lincoln het gesê: ``Wanting to work is so rare a want, it should be encouraged.’’

Sommige oorlopers uit die Wes-Kaap na die DP behoort egter dié uitspraak ter harte te neem. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr I J PRETORIUS: Hon Chairperson, the New NP is going to vote against this budget, because the department is lacking in effective administration and control.

It was above all the revelation about the lack of effective administration of and control over the government printer in Umtata which has moved us to vote against this Vote. On 5 June of this year the department’s director- general informed the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs that the government printer in Umtata had last functioned in 1995. This is costing the taxpayers an estimated R11 million per year. It is a matter that should be rectified immediately.

However, I personally sympathise with the hon the Minister, because the department does not receive enough money to be able to function properly. The IEC is a good example. The department also does not get enough money to be able to fill staff vacancies. The hon the Minister is a hard worker, however, and the following utterance by Abraham Lincoln therefore does not apply to him. Lincoln said:``Wanting to work is so rare a want, it should be encouraged.’’

Some of those in the Western Cape who crossed the floor to the DP, however, should take that utterance to heart. [Interjections.]]

Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, the UDM will not be supporting this Vote for the simple reason that we believe that the department is not receiving enough money to fulfil its task. The IEC is underfunded by more than R500 million. This is directly affecting voter education and the ability of the IEC to provide mobile voting stations in rural areas.

This is a threat to our young democracy, in view of the fact that the local government election will be a far more complex and intricate system than the general elections of last year. A further contributing factor which leaves us with little choice but to vote against this budget is the plea by the director-general of the department to the portfolio committee that he needs a further R56 million just to perform the department’s most basic functions.

The department’s inability to provide the most basic services to all South African citizens further disenfanchises those who are already the victims of lack of delivery and poverty. It is especially in rural areas, where people have to travel hundreds of kilometres to the nearest Home Affairs office to register births or deaths, and to receive the most basic of services, that this department fails completely. This is not because of a lack of will but because of a lack of funding. The underfunding of this department compromises it and will further enhance its negative image.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your seat is right here. [Laughter.]

Mr D A MOKOENA: Chairperson, hon members, this is a very serious Vote. South Africa is home to all of us. The Ministry of Home Affairs is a very important Ministry because it looks after everybody from the cradle to the grave. It is therefore in our interest not to politicise issues of Home Affairs. It is precisely for that reason that I stand here to support the budget, and, in fact, to state that the Minister must get more money.

Over the past few years, the budget has been static at R1,3 billion, and yet Home Affairs is expected to deliver a lot. That is why it is important for members to forget about partisanship when it comes to Home Affairs. It does not help to pillory Home Affairs. We must work together because if Home Affairs falls, all of us are going to collapse. We therefore support this budget. [Applause.]

Vote No 14 agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).

Vote No 15 - Housing - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr T D LEE: Mnr die Voorsitter, aangesien die staat se lewering … [Mr Chairperson, since the State’s delivery …]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! [Interjections.] Hon members you are making it difficult for the member to continue. Some senior members are shouting, and I do not expect that from them. Please continue, sir. [Interjections.]

Mr T D LEE: Voorsitter, aangesien die staat se lewering van behuising so onaanvaarbaar stadig is en aangesien die grootte, sowel as standaard van huise wat wel gebou is, in baie gevalle baie swak is, sal en kan die DP nie die behuisingsbegroting steun nie. [Chairperson, since the state’s delivery of houses is so unacceptably slow and since the size, as well as the standard of houses that are built are in many cases very bad, the DP will not and cannot support the housing budget.]

The drastic decrease in the Housing budget from 5% in 1994 to 1,4% this year shows that the housing of the poor is not a priority of this Government. In the Western Cape alone, there is a waiting list of more than 200 000 people in dire need of housing. This list is getting longer by the day as people are moving from all over South Africa to the Western Cape in search of employment. It is estimated that 20 000 people or more are moving to the Western Cape annually. While this is happening, the Western Cape’s housing budget has been cut by one third. It has been reduced by a whopping R112 million from R350 million last year to R238 million this year.

Instead of building houses, we are establishing bureaucracies. The NHBRC is a case in point. These bureaucracies are costing the state millions of rands which could have been put to much better use, like building more and bigger houses. Most of these bureaucracies are duplications and they serve more to impede than to assist the delivery of housing. Could the Minister stop building bureaucracies and start building houses. Mr B M DOUGLAS: Mr Chairperson, I do not want to touch the delicate sensibilities of some of the politicians here today, save to say that it seems that it is true that when some men and women have persuaded themselves that, after having derived some powers or commission from omnipotence itself, they can superintend on matters sometimes so mysterious as housing, informal settlements or living in townships, where they never set their foot, they will not understand what is happening there.

I think this misrepresentation should be banned, as they say in Latin, pro salute animarium, otherwise the electorate will be mislead infinitum in ad absurdum. The IFP supports this Vote with the necessary conscientious conviction.

Mr S SIMMONS: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, and hon members, housing is a key portfolio. One of the ways of addressing poverty is to provide adequate, suitable housing to metropolitan and rural areas in South Africa. [Interjections.]

The New NP notes with alarm that, notwithstanding the need for housing, a number of provincial governments have refrained from spending the following amounts, as of 31 March 2000, which were budgeted for housing: the Eastern Cape - R77,2 million; the Free State - R143,6 million; KwaZulu-Natal - R108,65 million; Mpumalanga - R77,95 million … [Laughter] [Interjections] … the Northern Province - R3,69 million; the North West Province - R3,66 million. The figures given in respect of money not spent are untenable. Allow me to congratulate the provinces that spent their allocated amounts of money, and they are the Western Cape, the Northern Cape and Gauteng.

Housing should not be used to score cheap political points, but there is a clear lack of capacity regarding the building of houses and the administration and spending of budgeted money. The New NP will oppose the budget for Housing.

Ms N E HANGANA: Mr Chairperson, there is only one reason why the New NP and the DP are rejecting this budget. It is because the Department of Housing is now shifting its resources towards the rural areas. That is why the Western Cape budget has been cut, and that is why they are crying so loudly here. [Interjections.] There is no scandal. It is because the hon members do not want the resources to go to rural areas. That is the scandal. And we are saying that now the Department of Housing must concentrate on the poorer provinces.

The Western Cape always says that the Western Cape is the best- governed area. They should first address the question of the taxis in this province. [Interjections.] If they are the best- governed province, they should show us how they can deal with the taxi issue. What we are saying is that this Government is committed to shifting resources to the poorest of the poor in the rural areas. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 264: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser- Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke- Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa- Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Serote, M W; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 47: Andrew, K M; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Mabeta, M E; Moorcroft, E K; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Waters, M.

Vote No 15 accordingly agreed to.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! There is no Vote 16.

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I really believe that you should address the hon Minister Erwin. It is quite clear that he is engaged in spread betting over there, and the DP would like you to check that. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, we are not playing cricket here. Please keep it until later. [Laughter.]

Vote No 17 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.

Declarations of vote:

Adv P S SWART: Voorsitter, die DP steun die begrotingspos, maar slegs omdat die fondse wat in die verlede begroot is doeltreffend gebruik word, alhoewel die direktoraat heeltemal onderbefonds is. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die Polisie funksioneer daagliks in die spervuur. Sommige lede voel tereg asof hulle hande afgekap is, terwyl misdadigers wat nie aan dieselfde reëls gebonde is nie, bykans daagliks polisielede vermoor. Die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit doen nie veel om die saak te verbeter nie wanneer hy lede aanmoedig om hardhandig met misdadigers te werk, wat verkeerd geïnterpreteer word deur gefrustreerde polisielede as goedkeuring om reëls te omseil. Wat die Polisie juis van die misdadiger onderskei, is dat dit hulle taak is om mense te beskerm, binne die reg op te tree, die minimum geweld te gebruik en verantwoordbaar te wees vir hulle dade.

In 1999 is ‘n totaal van 9 784 klagtes ontvang deur die Onafhanklike Klagtesdirektoraat, waarvan slegs 3,2% dissiplinêre optrede teen lede tot gevolg gehad het. Voorts word ongeveer R32 miljoen per jaar deur die Polisie aan geskorste lede betaal, R7,8 miljoen meer as die Onafhanklike Klagtesdirektoraat se hele begroting vir die boekjaar 2000-01. Die direktoraat is totaal onvoldoende gefinansier. Slegs 28% van goedgekeurde strukture word gefinansier. Daar is ‘n 70%-tekort aan personeel, met die gevolg dat 71% van die ondersoeke na die Polisie terugverwys word vir ondersoek. Die gereguleerde word so dus die reguleerder.

Die raamwerk vir mediumtermyn-uitgawes sal hersien moet word om behoorlike finansiering te verseker. Slegs dan sal die verantwoordbaarheid van die Polisie verseker word en die vertroue van die publiek in die Polisiediens herstel word. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, the DP supports the Vote, but only because the funds budgeted in the past are being used effectively, although the directorate is totally underfunded. [Interjections.] The Police function in the firing line on a daily basis. Some members justifiably feel as though their hands have been tied, while criminals who are not bound by the same rules murder police members virtually every day. The Minister of Safety and Security is not doing much to improve the situation when he encourages members to deal roughly with criminals, which is incorrectly interpreted by frustrated police members as approval to circumvent the rules. Precisely what distinguishes the Police from the criminal, is that it is their task to protect people, to act within the law, to use minimum force and to be accountable for their deeds.

In 1999 a total of 9 784 complaints were received by the Independent Complaints Directorate, of which only 3,2% led to disciplinary action against members. In addition, approximately R32 million is paid annually by the Police to suspended members, R7,8 million more than the entire budget of the Independent Complaints Directorate for the 2000-01 financial year. The directorate is totally inadequately financed. Only 28% of approved structures are financed. There is a 70% shortage of staff, leading to 71% of the investigations being referred back to the Police for investigation. In this way the regulated becomes the regulator.

The Medium-Term Expenditure Framework will have to be reviewed to ensure adequate funding. Only then will the accountability of the Police be ensured and the confidence of the public in the Police Service be restored.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: Chairperson, the IFP will be supporting the budget of the Independent Complaints Directorate. Our support is based on the principle that the SAPS cannot investigate their own conduct and an independent, neutral body is needed to perform this important task.

Whereas we have no problem with the ICD per se, we are very concerned about both their independence and their political neutrality. Up to 80% of their case dockets are investigated by functional SAPS personnel, which impacts on their independence - an issue which urgently needs to be rectified.

Their political independence and neutrality is widely questioned, with very good reason. There are numerous examples which question their neutrality. Their insistence, for instance, in the Northern Province, on being personally involved in all promotions in the SAPS, is just one of those examples.

The ICD has an extremely important task to fulfil in our country. If they were to stick to their mandate instead of trying to run the Police Force, they would do us all a big favour.

Mr M E GEORGE: Chairperson, the ANC stands to support this Vote. We understand the concerns raised by the DP and the IFP. In actual fact, their concerns are being addressed and, as members of that committee, they know very well that we are all concerned about the underfunding of the ICD, but we must also agree that it is doing good work and it must be supported.

Lastly, I want to say that there is no way we can have all the money which we want in the country, so the money that the ICD has is quite enough to make sure that their job is done properly. The ANC will support the ICD. [Applause.]

Vote No 17 agreed to.

Vote No 18 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.

Dr J T DELPORT: Chairman, the DP cannot support the Justice Vote for the following reasons. First of all, the legal system is malfunctioning to an alarming degree. This was publicly admitted by the Minister himself. It was admitted in statements made by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development before the portfolio committee, and it is malfunctioning in terms of the evaluation of prominent members of the legal fraternity.

Secondly, the Minister himself and majority party members of this House have, on more than one occasion, referred disparagingly to members of the judiciary, and, in general, have shown disrespect for the rule of law.

Die DP neem in ag dat baie van die probleme die resultaat is van die swak administrasie van die huidige Minister se voorganger, maar ons is jammer om te sê die Minister het ‘n lang pad voor om die vertroue van die publiek, die regswêreld en die internasionale gemeenskap in sy Ministerie te herstel. [The DP has taken into account that many of the problems are the result of the poor administration of the present Minister’s predecessor, but we are sorry to say that the Minister has a long way to go to restore the confidence of the public, the legal fraternity and the international community in his Ministry.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, the IFP supports the Vote, but there is something I would like to ask, and that is, why is it that the DP is all of a sudden opposing 20 of the Votes, whereas last year they only opposed a fraction of that number? And I think that the reason why they are doing so, is not because they are opposed to it in principle but because they want to demonstrate to all of us that they have the guts to fight back. [Applause.] And now we have to sit here until 12 o’clock tonight to watch the guts of the DP. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order!

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: I want to tell the DP something. They may be feeling on top of the world at this stage because Hernus Kriel joined them today, and dozens of rats are now swimming to them from the sinking ship of the NP. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Order! Order!

An HON MEMBER: Where do you come from?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: I come from Pretoria, and you? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member Koos van der Merwe, please be seated. [Interjections.] Order! Hon member, I will not allow you to heckle all the time. [Laughter.] Order! Hon member, we are not worried about rats. We are discussing the Justice and Constitutional Development Vote. Please continue. [Laughter.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I have been in this Parliament for 23 years, and you will be surprised how many rats I have met here. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon member, I advise you that hon members in this House are not rats. Please continue. [Laughter.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Well, I accept your assurance, Mr Chairperson …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Unless you are going to lead the pack.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: In conclusion, I want to say to the DP, in all seriousness, that one day, on its tombstone, will be written the following: ``The DP perished because it could never win significant black support.’’ [Applause.]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, that will be a hard act to follow. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order!

Mrs S M CAMERER: The Justice budget does have some severe shortcomings, as the Minister admitted to this House. In the first instance, it is inadequate, as usual. This has been the case progressively for the past three years, so that last year we felt constrained to vote against it. The apparent increase of approximately 10% is not an increase at all in real terms.

Briefing the portfolio committee, a deputy director-general of the department admitted that there would be less money for operations this year. Virtually every official of the department briefing the committee pleaded lack of funds as the main reason for the department’s woes. However, what has changed this year is the management. The new team at Justice: The new Minister, the new Deputy Minister and the new Director- General have frankly admitted and acknowledged past shortcomings, and have promised to improve the situation through new initiatives.

The Minister has made a hands-on commitment to root out crime. He has established four more rape courts, making a total of six, and he has built many new court buildings. We will, therefore, despite our reservations, give them the benefit of the doubt this time and vote for the budget. However, if things do not come right, they should not count on us next year. [Interjections.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the primary role of Government is to safeguard its citizens and to wield the sword of justice. There is no doubt that the South African criminal justice system is struggling to cope with the high levels of crime. It is, therefore, a serious admission of the Government’s failure to protect its citizenry when a member of the judiciary, Justice Jeppe, describes as ``reasonable and genuine’’, an emigrating businessman’s fears that his children will be exposed to crime, among other risks. However, as was evident in the recent United Nations crime conference, South Africa is not alone in facing this scourge of levels of high crime.

During the recent hearings on the Vote, I was, indeed, impressed by the commitment of senior management to improve our criminal justice system. We further believe that the judicial system must be accessible to all, and this can be achieved by the provision of adequate legal aid and an adequate infrastructure.

Whilst the allocation of funds for the provision of functional court buildings and maintenance falls short of needs, the allocation of R154 million, for capital projects for this financial year, is welcomed by the ACDP. Furthermore, the facilities for specialised courts, such as sexual offences courts and family courts, provided at new court buildings at Waterfall, Knysna, Bethlehem and Alexandra, are also to be welcomed.

We also welcome the Minister’s announcement, as reported in the media, that he does not intend setting up a second investigating unit. We are, however, concerned about budgetary constraints place upon the Heath Special Investigating Unit and call upon Government to increase its budget allocation.

In conclusion, we support this Vote.

Genl C L VILJOEN: Agb Voorsitter, die VF kan nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie, om hoofsaaklik twee redes. Eerstens gaan die VF as party se politieke spil oor sake soos minderheidsregte, die beskerming van inheemse tale, kulture, asook selfbeskikking. Die beleid van hierdie departement om Afrikaans, ‘n gevestigde inheemse regstaal, uit ons howe te weer sal Afrikaans as ‘n gevestigde juridiese instrument benadeel, asook die taal- en die kultuurregte van die Afrikaanse gemeenskap. Dit is ongrondwetlik en dit is ook kwetsend.

Voorts is die doeltreffendheid van die Suid-Afrikaanse howe wat onder die juridiksie van hierdie departement val, onaanvaarbaar swak en dit dra so by tot ten minste ses ernstige situasies. Eerstens is daar die onhanteerbare misdaadsituasie in die land omdat die juridiese proses daar vassteek. Tweedens het ons die aanhouding van groot getalle verhoorafwagtendes vir onaanvaarbaar lang tye. In die derde plek is daar die skokkende getal jeugdiges wat in tronke aangehou word as verhoorafwagtendes.

Vierdens is dit ‘n feit dat tronke só oorvol is dat dit onmoontlik is om die regte van al die aangehoudenes, naamlik normale menseregte, te handhaaf. Vyfdens is daar die ontsnappings uit die howe en laastens die vermorsing van geld en tyd van die staat, maar ook van die burgers wat van daardie fasiliteite moet gebruik maak. Om dié redes sal die VF die begrotingspos nie kan steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Hon Chairman, the FF cannot support this Vote, mainly for two reasons. Firstly, the political hub of the FF as a party is issues such as minority rights, the protection of indigenous languages, cultures, and self-determination. The policy of this department to remove Afrikaans, an established indigenous legal language, from our courts will prejudice Afrikaans as an established judicial instrument, as well as the language and cultural rights of the Afrikaans community. It is unconstitutional and hurtful.

Furthermore, the efficiency of South African courts, which fall under the jurisdiction of this department, is unacceptably poor and therefore is contributing to at least six serious situations. Firstly, there is the unmanageable crime situation in the country, because the judicial process gets stuck there. Secondly, we have the detention of large numbers of awaiting-trial prisoners for unacceptably long periods of time. Thirdly, there is the shocking number of youths being detained in prisons while awaiting trial. Fourthly, it is a fact that prisons are so overcrowded that it is impossible to maintain the rights of all the detainees, that is their normal human rights. Fifthly, there are the escapes from courts and finally the wasting of the state’s money and time, and also that of the citizens who have to use those facilities. For these reasons the FF will be unable to support the Vote.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, net baie kortliks: die AEB kan ook nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. Die Departement van Justisie funksioneer nie na wense nie. Die oorvol tronke en die lang hofrolle is daarvan voldoende bewys. ‘n Groot rede daarvoor is onervare staatsaanklaers en landdroste, en ek dink ek wil die Minister adviseer … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, just very briefly: the AEB cannot support this Vote either. The Department of Justice is not functioning as it should. The overcrowded prisons and the long court rolls are proof enough of this. A big reason for this is inexperienced public prosecutors and magistrates, and I think I want to advise the Minister …]

… to take a leaf out of the book of the hon the Minister of Education, whose intention it is to redeploy officials with experience.

Die voorneme om Afrikaans as verslagtaal uit die howe te weer kan ons ook nie steun nie. Ook het hierdie departement die verantwoordelikheid van konstitusionele ontwikkeling, waarvan daar niks gekom het nie. Verder is daar duidelike tekens van inmenging in die regbank, wat ons alreeds hier uitgewys het.

Ten laaste het mnr Koos van der Merwe vertel wat op die DP se grafskrif gaan staan. Ek weet wat op syne gaan staan:

Hier lê Koos van der Merwe. Sy droom lê aan skerwe. Hy het die KP verlaat, Want Buthelezi sal praat. Maar die Alliansie het alles bederwe.

[Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[We cannot support the intention to do away with Afrikaans as a language of record in the courts either. This department is also responsible for constitutional development, but nothing has come of this. There are also clear signs of interference in the judiciary, which we have already pointed out here.

Lastly, Mr Koos van der Merwe told us what would appear on the DP’s tombstone. I know what will appear on his:

Hier lê Koos van der Merwe. Sy droom lê aan skerwe. Hy het die KP verlaat, Want Buthelezi sal praat. Maar die Alliansie het alles bederwe.

[Interjections.]]

Adv J H DE LANGE: Mr Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the ANC to express my unconditional support of this budget once again. It is very sad to see that three of the parties have not supported this Vote. It is interesting to note that two of these parties have never attended any justice committee meetings.

I think it is important to deal with the hon Gen Constand Viljoen’s point about Afrikaans, which point is, once again, completely wrong. As usual, he got his lines a bit mixed up again. At no stage has the ANC ever adopted a policy or suggested one to remove the use of Afrikaans from the courts. In fact, it is the ANC’s policy to stick to the Constitution which states that all eleven languages are official languages. Any person who wants to speak Afrikaans in court will be given the opportunity to do so. There has been some discussion, but no policy adopted, on the question of a single language of record for the courts. That matter is receiving further attention amd has not been finalised.

Yesterday, the hon the President noted that the biggest opposition party often resorts to mere sloganeering, and that if they do so, we should hear them and then ignore what they are saying and move forward to deal with the real problems. Today is a prime example of such sloganeering.

They are coming here to tell us that the justice system is completely malfunctioning and that the Minister of Justice has said so. This is, of course, nonsense. The Minister of Justice has indicated that he has, on many occasions, admitted that there are problems in the judicial system, but that does not mean that it is malfunctioning to the extent that it does not operate. Secondly, it definitely does not mean that because one is dealing with these problems openly, one is suggesting anything of that nature.

Lastly, there is something I want to point out. I think it is important for the DP to note this. When one votes against the Justice Vote, one is not voting against the hon Minister or Penuell Maduna, as they have indicated. One is not voting against the ANC. One is voting against the thousands of people that are trying to make the justice system work. That is who they are voting against. [Applause.]

I want to tell those hon members that I will remind the people of South Africa, every day if I can, that the DP has not respected or appreciated the work that those people are doing to try and make things work for the better. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 276: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Magubane, N E; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Serote, M W; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Deventer, F J; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 37: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Singh, A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Viljoen, C L; Waters, M.

Vote No 18 accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 19 - Labour - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr R J HEINE: Chairperson, hon members, the budget for Labour before this House is a budget designed to increase unemployment. It is a budget designed to make businesses pay for the Government’s union-appeasing policies, and it is a budget that will do nothing whatsoever to help get South Africa towards the 6% growth rate that it needs to survive economically and provide for its people.

We will not support this budget because, of the R748 million received by the Department of Labour, R144 million goes to policing the businesses which actually pay the taxes which fund the department. We will not support this budget as long as we as a nation are dealing with chronic unemployment and as long as the Department of Labour does not think it necessary to allocate a single cent to job creation.

When our President addressed Parliament at the beginning of February, he announced that there would be a review of South Africa’s onerous labour legislation. Now, five months later, there is still no progress. In the meantime, 391 businesses have applied for exemption from various sections of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act. They say that it is simply too expensive to shoulder the burden and bear the costs. Nearly 400 000 employees are affected by these applications alone.

It is common knowledge that there is resistance to employing more people because of the problems associated with complying with the Government’s labour laws. The DP refuses to be a partner in unemployment creation. We will not protect the interests of organised labour over and above those of the millions of ordinary people who just want a job so that they can house, feed and clothe their families.

The budget gets a resounding no-vote from the DP. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Barbara Hogan, please take your seat. [Laughter.]

Mr N S MIDDLETON: Mr Chairperson and colleagues, the IFP will unite with anybody to do that which is right and correct. But we will not unite with anybody to do that which is wrong or detrimental to the people that we represent.

It is for this reason that the IFP has pledged to support this Vote, with the earnest request to our beloved Minister to see to it that the matters of the creation of jobs and unemployment get priority. [Applause.]

Mnr D M BAKKER: Mnr die Voorsitter, die mense in ons land stem grootliks saam dat werkloosheid ons enkele grootste probleem is, maar werkloosheid is aan die toeneem en slegs een uit dertig werksoekers het vandag hoegenaamd ‘n kans om werk te kry.

Die agb Minister van Finansies, die agb Trevor Manuel, sê in ‘n onderhoud dat die Regering se beleid nie werk geskep het nie en dat ‘n beleidsverandering nodig is. Hierdie uitspraak is baie bemoedigend, maar ten spyte van uitsprake soos hierdie sien die land ‘n Departement van Arbeid met die mees rigiede arbeidsbeleid denkbaar. Die agb Minister van Arbeid deel my mee dat die voorgenome wysigings aan die arbeidswette gereed is en dat hulle binnekort voorgelê sal word, en hopelik sal dié rigiede bepalings daardeur aangespreek word. Intussen word dit al hoe duideliker dat werkgewers in ‘n toenemende mate sukkel om gehoor te gee aan die rigiede bepalings van die arbeidswetgewing.

Verder ondervind die staat self ernstige probleme met hierdie wetgewing. Hoe die Regering kan verwag dat ander werkgewers die wetgewing moet toepas terwyl staatsinstellings self nie daaraan gehoor kan gee nie, gaan ‘n mens se verstand te bowe, en dit is ‘n duidelike bewys van die onvermoë om die werkskeppingprobleem aan te spreek. Solank as wat hierdie toestand voortduur, is dit nie vir die Nuwe NP moontlik om hierdie begrotingspos te steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Mr D M BAKKER: Mr Chairperson, the people in our country largely agree that unemployment is our single biggest problem, but unemployment is on the increase and today only one out of every 30 job-seekers has any chance of finding work.

The hon the Minister of Finance, the hon Trevor Manuel, said in an interview that the Government’s policy has not created jobs and that a policy change is required. This statement is very encouraging, but despite statements like these the country has a Department of Labour with the most rigid labour policy imaginable. The hon the Minister of Labour informs me that the envisaged amendments to the labour laws are ready and that they will be submitted shortly, and these rigid provisions will hopefully be addressed by them. In the meantime it is becoming clearer that employers are struggling more and more to meet the rigid provisions of the labour legislation.

Furthermore, the state itself is experiencing serious problems with this legislation. It is beyond one how the Government can expect other employers to implement the legislation while state institutions themselves cannot comply with it, and this is a clear indication of the inability to address the job creation problem. As long as this situation continues, it will not be possible for the New NP to support this Vote.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Mhlalingaphambili, nangona simxhasa uMnu Mdladlana kule Voti yakhe, singa singakuvakalisa oku kulandelayo: Oosomashishini nabatyali- zimali bayakhalaza besithi abasebenzi beli lizwe baziindleko nangona bengena buchwephetshe. Bathi ke oku kubangela ushishino lungakhuli. Oosomashishini abasakhasayo bayabethakala ngakumbi kuba umthetho ungqongqo malunga nemivuzo.

Sithi ke makenze into ngoku, ajike le meko. Olu hlengahlengiso lomthetho weBCE athetha ngalo makade alugqibe. Sekunjalo ke, siyamxhasa umhlekazi kule Voti. (Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)

[Adv Z L MADASA: Mr Chairperson, even if we support Mr Mdladlana’s Vote we wish to express the following: The business community and investors are complaining that workers in this country are expensive despite their lack of expertise. They are saying this causes the industry not to grow. Small businesses encounter hardships especially because the law with regard to wages is strict. We are therefore saying that he must do something now in order to change this state of affairs. He must eventually complete the rationalisation he has referred to. Nevertheless, we support the hon the Minister’s Vote.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, unemployment is South Africa’s biggest problem. The FF is convinced that unemployment is also the main cause of our totally unacceptable crime rate. How do we solve it? By creating more jobs. It is as simple as that. But the Government cannot create those jobs. The private sector must do so. Broadly speaking, our economy is healthy and growing, yet no new jobs are being created. Why? Because of the effect of our labour relations legislation on the economy. In South Africa we daily lose more jobs than we create. Between 1994 and 1997 R5,7 billion was invested by employers in factory technology. That is automatisation and one realises the impact of that. In the same period, 46 000 factory workers lost their jobs. Why? Simply because the labour legislation does not in any way encourage the creation of new jobs.

In Europa het die hoeveelheid werkers die afgelope 20 jaar bykans konstant gebly. In sommige lande verminder die werksmag selfs. Europese werkers is oorwegend hoogs geskoold en semigeskoold. Ons wetgewing is hoofsaaklik op Europese modelle gebaseer wat vir daardie wêreld werk, maar Suid-Afrika lyk anders. Ons het meer van die Amerikaanse tipe wette nodig, ongewild soos dit mag wees by sommige mense. Dit is wette wat min geduld met onwettige stakers toon, wat effektief met baie nuwe toetreders en met kompetisie in die arbeidsmark kan werk.

Die Regering het gesê hulle gaan kyk na die arbeidswette ten einde onvoorsiene gevolge te verbeter. Die feit dat nuwe werk nie geskep word nie, is een van die ernstige gevolge wat tot nou toe nog nie gehanteer is nie. Voor ons dit nie doen nie, gaan ons dié probleem nie oplos nie. As die probleem opgelos is, sal die res outomaties volg. Die VF gaan teen die begrotingspos vir hierdie portefeulje stem. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In Europe the number of workers has remained virtually constant for the past 20 years. In certain countries the labour force is even decreasing. European workers are mostly highly skilled and semi-skilled. Our legislation is based in the main on European models that work for that part of the world, but South Africa is different. We need more American-type laws, unpopular as this may be with some people. These are laws that show little patience with illegal strikers, which can work effectively with many new entrants to and competition in the labour market.

The Government has said that it will look at the labour laws in order to improve on unforeseen consequences. The fact that new jobs are not being created is one of the serious consequences that has not been dealt with as yet. Until we do this, we will not solve this problem. Once the problem has been solved, the rest will follow automatically. The FF is going to vote against the Vote for this portfolio.]

Mr M S MANIE: Deputy Chairperson, the ANC supports this Vote. If I ask the House how we judge what parties stand for, all we need to do is watch what they vote for and what they vote against. And I must say it comes as no surprise … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, please resume your seat. On what point do you rise, sir?

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, will the hon Mr Manie take a question? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Manie, would you take a question, sir?

Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, I am sure that Mr Gibson, as somebody who has served in the old parliament and as well as in this Parliament, understands that this is the time for declarations of vote, and, Chairperson, I hope that you will not penalise me for taking up this time. But he can ask me how old I am. I am much older than he is and he better respect me from now on. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEE: Order! I will give you injury time, but do not advise us how old you are, sir. Please continue. [Laughter.]

Mr M S MANIE: So it comes as no surprise to me that those parties which have indicated that they are going to vote against this Vote, will do so. It was very predictable, because we know that whatever the DP says here in Parliament, they are anti-transformation and anti-worker. But I think this is best captured by their slogan of fight blacks or fight back - to me this means exactly the same. What that means to me is the English translation of the swart gevaar. The swart gevaar worked so well in the past that when they wondered how they could capture the imagination of those people who had supported that policy, they came up with the English version of that which says: Fight blacks or fight back - whatever they want to say about it. [Interjections.] But I want to say something to them. I will not waste my time giving them advice. I want to warn them that they must remember that the people they vote against here in this House are not stupid. At the next elections they are going to vote against them. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 258: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Serote, M W; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 55: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Viljoen, C L; Waters, M.

Vote No 19 accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 20 - Land Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr A J BOTHA: Mnr die Voorsitter, die DP het die agb Minister onderskraag gedurende die begrotingsdebat, hoofsaaklik omdat grondhervorming op ‘n gesonde grondslag geplaas is, met die klem op die vestiging van kommersiële boere. Terwyl bestaansboerdery en tradisionele beheer nog vir ‘n geruime tyd sal voortduur, moet ons aanvaar dat daardie stelsels wêreldwyd in onbruik verval wanneer die ekonomie meer gesofistikeerd raak en die druk op voedsel- en veselproduksie vermeerder.

Die agb Minister moet ook saam met die portefeuljekomitee besin oor die uitwerking van die beoogde belasting op landbougrond. Dit sal ‘n vernietigende invloed hê op alle bestaande boere, sowel in die kommersiële as in die bestaansektor. Dit sal die vestiging van nuwe boere prakties onmoontlik maak. Die agb Minister moet ook kennis neem van die groeiende weerstand in die portefeuljekomitee teen die wyse waarop ons gemarginaliseer word. Dit is te algemeen dat ons van nuwe planne verneem via die media, soos nou onlangs weer met die aankondiging van die nuwe grondhervormingsplanne. Soos hierdie jongste beleidsverklaring meer algemeen bestudeer word, sal ons uiters seker moet maak dat daar geen sweem van rassisme daaraan verbonde is nie. Hiervoor het te veel mense te lank geveg teen diskriminasie en die vooroordele van die eeue. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A J BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, the DP supported the hon the Minister during the budget debate, mainly because land reform has been placed on a sound basis, with the emphasis on the establishment of commercial farmers. While subsistence farming and traditional control will continue for quite a while, we have to accept that those systems become obsolete whenever the economy becomes more sophisticated and the pressure on food and fibre production increases.

The hon the Minister must also, together with the portfolio committee, consider the effect of the envisaged tax on agricultural land. This will have a destructive effect on all existing farmers, both in the commercial and in the subsistence sector. It will make the establishment of new farmers in practice impossible.

The hon the Minister must also take note of the increasing resistance within the portfolio committee to the manner in which we are being marginalised. It is a common occurrence for us to learn of new plans via the media, as happened again recently with the announcement of the new land reform plans. As this most recent policy declaration is studied more in general, we will have to make extremely sure that there is not a hint of racism connected to it. Too many people have struggled for too long against discrimination and the prejudices of the ages for that.]

Lastly, the hon the Minister should please convince her colleagues with statistics, and provide the thread of information about the land actually available for immediate settlement, so that we can get on with this job and avoid the ANC campaign of discrediting existing farmers, who are loyal citizens of this country.

The DP supports this Vote. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Mbuyazi, please be seated.

Prof H NGUBANE: Mr Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members, the MECs of agriculture and land affairs have been given power of attorney in order to administer the allocation of state agricultural land in their respective provinces to aspiring people coming from the previously disadvantaged groups. We support this development, because it is pragmatic and fast- tracks the distribution of land.

Access to land is basic to the fight against poverty, to which the Government has committed itself. The Minister and the Department of Land Affairs have embarked on a number of reviews which lead to fresh approaches in this exceptionally emotive issue of land.

May I take this opportunity to welcome back Minister Didiza after her brief maternity leave. As an indication of the importance of this stage in her own individual development and lifecycle, I would like to present her with the badge of motherhood. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Genl C L VILJOEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, grondsake raak baie mense. Daar is by baie mense in Suid-Afrika groot verwagtinge oor grond geskep. Baie mense se emosies loop hoog. Dit is ‘n plofbare saak.

Ons het die geval dat die Suid-Afrikaanse Regering nie na wense vorder met die herverdeling van staatsbeheerde grond wat beskikbaar is nie. Hulle het agter geraak met hul doelwitte en die mense wat verwagtinge het, begin hul ongeduld in dié verband te wys. Dit is presies wat in Zimbabwe gebeur het.

Waar grond wel oorhandig is, soos op Riemvasmaak en ook in baie ander gevalle, is die grond oorgedra aan nuwe eienaars wat dit nie goed kon benut nie. Waar herverdeling van skaars landbougrond plaasvind, moet die Regering tog toesien dat die benutting van daardie grond moontlik is en dat armoede verminder en nie vererger nie.

Die stadige vordering met die staat se toewysing van grond en afhandeling van grondeise is besig om hier emosies soos dié in Zimbabwe te genereer. Grond is beskikbaar, maar die staat gee dit nie vinnig genoeg uit nie en nou swaai die gevoel van die massas teen die private grondeienaars, soos in Zimbabwe. Die begroting vir Landbou toon ook nie vanjaar ‘n ernstige benadering met betrekking tot voorligtingsdienste nie en, soos reeds voorheen gemeld, het ons die probleem van die gevare van grondbelasting. Navorsing binne die departement is ook nie goed gefinansier nie. Die gevolge hiervan is dat die opkomende boere al hoe swaarder gaan kry om die mas op te kom.

Hoewel die VF saamstem met die positiewe aspekte van die agb Minister se hantering van hierdie saak, iets wat ook deur ander partye genoem is, is ons bekommerd dat die Regering nie voldoende vorder nie, en daarom sal ons beswaar aanteken teen hierdie begrotingspos. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Mr Chairperson, land affairs affects many people. Great expectations in respect of land have been created in the minds of many people in South Africa. The emotions of many people are running high. This is an explosive issue.

We have a situation where the South African Government is not making the desired progress with the redistribution of state-owned land which is available. They have fallen behind with their objectives and the people who have expectations, are beginning to show their impatience in this regard. This is exactly what happened in Zimbabwe.

Where land has, in fact, been handed over, such as at Riemvasmaak and also in many other instances, the land was handed over to new owners who could not utilise it properly. Where redistribution of scarce agricultural land occurs, the Government should please see to it that utilisation of that land is possible and that poverty is reduced and not worsened.

The slow progress with the state’s allocation of land and the finalising of land claims are beginning to generate emotions here such as those in Zimbabwe. Land is available, but the state is not allowing it quickly enough and now the feeling among the masses is swinging against private land owners, as happened in Zimbabwe.

The budget for Agriculture also does not exhibit a serious approach this year with regard to extension services and, as has already been mentioned, we have the problem of the dangers of land tax. Research within the department has also not been financed well. In consequence upcoming farmers will find it increasingly difficult to make the grade.

Although the FF agrees with the positive aspects of the way in which the hon the Minister is handling this issue, something which has also been mentioned by other parties, we are concerned that the Government is not making sufficient progress, and therefore we record our objection to this Vote.]

Business suspended at 19:00 and resumed at 20:04.

                           Evening Sitting

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I am glad to see you awake and energetic. [Interjections.] We will now continue with the consideration of Vote No 20

• Land Affairs. Will the PAC please make their declaration?

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, just before the adjournment the House made us choose between land and food, and we chose food. I want to say that there is no food without land. There is absolutely no food without land! I want to put a finger on what is absolutely fundamental and that is land. We want to say that we support the Government’s policy of land reform. We are, however, worried by the state of delivery and the 63 000 claims which were not met. I know that the number is not quite that now, but I believe this is a thing that should not happen again in the year that is before us.

Not long ago it was reported that the Minister of Land Affairs had bought some land from somewhere - I think it was from the state - and decided to redistribute it among farmers. I want to say that it really warmed my heart to begin to see the small farmers - the so-called non-farmers - becoming farmers in the land of their birth. That, I think, is a line we should be taking; we should be accelerating along it, because it is the right line to where we are going.

We support land reform. We say it is not enough. We want basic redistribution of land. We want to suggest something very fundamental, some might even call it radical. When we were at Codesa, we made a big blunder with section 25 in the Constitution, and I want to suggest that it is now time that that section should be repealed. We have the majority. We have enough votes in this House to bring that about. We really have no excuse whatsoever not to tackle that section, because until that section is repealed we can go on talking but nothing is going to happen. [Time expired.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, may I, by way of introduction, say that if you wear that dress when we come to our farewell speeches, I could give you another CD, Lady in Red.

Of, soos ons in Afrikaans sê: Tannie met die Rooi Rokkie''. [Or, as we say in Afrikaans:Tannie met die Rooi Rokkie’’.]

Currently, a large degree of uncertainty exists in the farming community as to where the Government is going with the land redistribution process. Land and land reform is the most crucial issue.

Ons moet meer duidelikheid oor hierdie saak kry. Die hele saak van grondpryse en van verbetering op bestaande plaaseiendom kom hierdeur in gedrang. Die program van staatsgrondverdeling is ver agter en die belofte dat 15% staatsgrond binne die volgende twee jaar verdeel sal word, is heeltemal ontoereikend. Ons soek ook duidelike waarborge dat, anders as in Zimbabwe, ‘n kaart en transport werklik nog in ons land waarde sal hê. Ook die voorgestelde belasting op landbougrond bring groot onduidelikheid. Vanweë die onduidelikheid oor hierdie saak en vanweë die feit dat daar nie ‘n duidelike koers of rigting is nie, sal die AEB nie hierdie begrotingspos kan steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[We must have more clarity on this issue. The whole matter of land prices and of improvement of existing farm property is prejudiced by this. The programme of the division of state land is lagging far behind and the promise that 15% of state land will be divided within the next two years is completely inadequate. We also seek clear guarantees that, unlike the case in Zimbabwe, a title deed will truly still have value in our country. The proposed tax on agricultural land is also giving rise to a great deal of uncertainty. Due to the uncertainty about this issue and due to the fact that there is no clear course or direction, the AEB will not be able to support this Vote. [Interjections.]]

Adv S P HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker, as the ANC we support this Vote. We support it because the department has a workable programme, which is designed to address the legacy of colonial and apartheid dispossession of Africans of their land. The Minister is embarking on a process of making state land available for both the landless and the people who want to practise commercial agriculture.

Restitution is also picking up, with 5 000 claims having been finalised in a matter of one year. We are, however, perturbed by the callousness displayed by some farmers who continue to commit criminal acts with the illegal and inhumane eviction of poor and vulnerable farm dwellers. Let those who continue to do these things be warned that the patience and tolerance of their victims are not endless. I am disappointed but not surprised that the DP and those of their ilk do not speak out against this scourge in the way they continue to speak about other matters.

The Minister has issued powers of attorney to MECs in the provinces with the intention of accelerating land delivery, and it is our hope that these powers will not be used for party-political purposes. The Minister is also working closely with other Ministries to ensure that newly acquired land is used productively within an integrated development system. [Applause.] Vote No 20 agreed to (Freedom Front and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).

Vote No 21 - Minerals and Energy - put.

Mr I O DAVIDSON: Madam Speaker, the DP wishes to raise its objection to the Minerals and Energy budget as tabled. This objection is based not so much on what the Minister or her department have done, but more on what they have not done. Here I am referring to the whole question of the restructuring and re-regulation of the liquid fuels industry. Let me say here that the Minister, herself, indicated that this was one aspect of her portfolio that she had neglected.

Fuel prices in South Africa have increased from R2,20 per litre in March last year to a record level of R3,24 per litre this year. Now we recognise that the increase in the dollar price of oil has played a role in respect of this increase. But what the Government has, at worst, failed to recognise, or, at best, failed to acknowledge, is that there are many anomalies in the way the fuel price has been structured in South Africa, and that these anomalies have led to higher prices at the pump. My speech in the debate dealt fully with these aspects. The Minister, herself, has recognised the need for such a restructuring and re- regulation. However, she has indicated that a precursor to such a development is the attainment of certain milestones, one of which is a 25% black-empowerment presence in the industry. When asked, in a question by me, whether there was any progress in this regard, she indicated that, indeed, there was no progress.

Now, restructuring and reregulation, and therefore lower prices, have been kept hostage to black empowerment - a laudable objective, but not at any price. Fuel-price increases have delicate and complex ramifications which affect every individual, every business and, ultimately, the economy as a whole, as we have seen by the recent increases in the producer- price and consumer-price indices. The Minister, for heaven’s sake, needs to act boldly and to act now, and until she acts, we must register our objection. [Interjections.]

Mr E J LUCAS: Madam Speaker, the IFP supports the 2000-2001 Minerals and Energy Vote. We do, however, request the Minister, as we have done in the budget debate, to urgently review the current petrol-pricing mechanism with the objective of reducing the price of petrol to the paying consumer. We realise that it is a difficult task, and we also know that she does have the capability to perform this challenging and complicated task.

Mr A H NEL: Madam Speaker, although we are not going to vote against this Vote, we would have supported it with more enthusiasm if the Minister had been more proactive in, firstly, addressing the price of petrol in a more imaginative manner, for example, by temporarily lowering the tax on petrol, and, secondly, solving the issue of mineral rights and spelling out exactly what is meant by the principle of ``use it or lose it’’.

Of course, there were also positive developments, such as the facilitating role which the Minister and her department played in the holding of a mining summit. Unfortunately, this Minister had to deal with the legacy of her predecessor, but, fortunately for her, because of certain differences, she cannot imitate him in being a bull in a china shop.

Mnu D M NKOSI: Somlomo, ngiphakama ohlangothini lwe-ANC ukusho ukuthi siyahambisana nalesi Sabiwo-zimali. Ngithi sisamukele njengoba sibekiwe. Kuyacaca-ke ukuthi umsebenzi usemningi.

Amalungu ekomidi lawa akhulume ngaphambili, abonise ngokucacile ukuthi umsebenzi osimele ekomidini mningi kangakanani. Engikuvezayo nengizokuphakamisa kule Ndlu ngukuthi lokhu abakuphakamisile uNgqongqoshe ukuzwile. IPhini lakhe kanye nomNyango wezaMandla neziMbiwa ngiyethemba ukuthi bazokwazi ukusisiza.

Ihhovisi likaNgqongqoshe yilona kuphela esele nomsebenzi omningi osalele emuva ngoba yiyo eyabambezeleka kakhulu. Ukubambisana nezinye izinhlangano nokushintshwa koNgqongqoshe bethu kuyinto esichithele isikhathi eside kakhulu.

Umsebenzi mningi ngakho amalungu ekomidi mawalungele umsebenzi. Sizoqala bese siqhubekela phambili. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Mr D M NKOSI: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the ANC I rise to say that we support this Vote. What I am saying is that we support it as it stands. It is clear that a lot still needs to be done. Members of our committee who have spoken just now, have clearly shown us the work that is still awaiting us as a committee. I would like to inform this House that everything that the previous speakers proposed was heard by the hon the Minister. I hope that her deputy and the Department of Minerals and Energy will be able to assist.

The office of the hon the Minister is behind with a lot of work due to the delays it has recently experienced. The change in Ministers and our working together with other organisations are the things that have wasted a lot of our time.

There is a lot of work to be done, therefore members of our committee must be ready. We will start and then keep on working. [Applause.]]

Vote No 21 agreed to (Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 22 - Provincial and Local Government - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J SELFE: Madam Speaker, the Department of Provincial and Local Government engages in a great deal of activity, but there is always the danger of confusing activity with action.

There are several reasons why we cannot support the Vote. Firstly, despite a programme to monitor the financial viability of local government, one in six municipalities is technically bankrupt and only one in four can raise credit at commercial banks. Secondly, there is no coherent disaster management policy and legislation in place. Thirdly, there are hopelessly insufficient funds to cover the transition to the new system of local government, despite the fact that elections are going to be held in November this year. Fourthly, a draft to the Bill on property rates has caused major panic amongst home owners, yet the department has done nothing to reassure the public. Fifthly, despite a crying need for capacity building at local government level, the training board for this purpose has allocated only about a third of the money voted for this. For these reasons we will unfortunately not be supporting the Vote.

Mr P F SMIT: Madam Speaker, I was actually hoping to address these comments in part to the Minister, but I cannot see him. He is hiding somewhere in the masses. May I say, in any event, that it would be churlish of us not to acknowledge that the department is doing much that is good and positive in respect of local governance. I do want to say, however, that it is not our function today to pat the Minister on the back, or his department for that matter.

I want to take this opportunity to remind the House and the Minister, in case he needs reminding, of our implacable opposition to government policy in so far as the relationship of traditional authorities with municipal government is concerned. It beggars belief that after eight years we still have not resolved this issue. It has been on the agenda since Codesa. It has been through process after process, and we still have no resolution to the dispute. In fact, it is precisely because this Parliament has failed, the ruling party has failed and there has been a failure by everybody involved in the process, that the President has had to intervene to promise that negotiations will start next month. Hopefully the matter will now be resolved.

We expect the department to be useful and helpful in this process, not to be defensive of the existing positions, and to contribute positively towards an outcome that will, in fact, resolve the matter satisfactory. However, we are concerned that there is too much of a buy in, by both the Ministry and the department, into the status quo, and the status quo is precisely what the problem is. So we would like to say that the process must be given a chance. We are not entirely confident about what is going to happen, but we must give it a chance. [Interjections.] We will, nevertheless, support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mnr F J VAN DEVENTER: Mevrou die Speaker, toe ek vanaand voor ete so kyk, het ons amper besluit om die begrotingspos te steun, want ons het gesien die Minister vir Provinsiale en Plaaslike Regering en die Minister van Finansies praat ‘n slag met mekaar. Ons het gehoop dit gaan oor meer geld vir hierdie departement om hulle kapasiteit te bou, en om die oorgang na die nuwe plaaslike regeringstelsel behoorlik van die grond af te kry. Toe kom ons vanaand terug ná ete en sien die Minister is weg. Hy is nie hier nie. Nou, dit is soos die departement werk - wanneer hy teenwoordig moet wees, is hy afwesig, en wanneer hy afwesig moet wees, is hy teenwoordig.

Hierdie departement staan voor een van die grootste uitdagings ten opsigte van die konstitusionele ontplooiing van die Suid-Afrikaanse staatkunde wat enige departement in hierdie Parlement seker nóg die hoof moes bied. Die belangrikheid van die stap wat hierdie departement moet doen, naamlik om Suid-Afrika in ‘n nuwe plaaslike regeringsbedeling in te lei, word ondermyn as gevolg van ‘n departement wat nie oor die kapasiteit beskik om die werk te kan doen wat hy moet doen nie, en as gevolg van onderfinansiering.

In die tweede instansie kry ‘n mens die gevoel dat daar nie behoorlike beheer oor hierdie departement en sy werksaamhede is nie, en daarom kan ons hierdie begrotingspos nie steun nie. Daar is ‘n verdere aspek wat vandag na vore gekom het. Die party hier aan my linkerkant is besig om oudministers wat belas was met plaaslike regering uit die ou apartheidsdae by hulle te versamel. Ek wil nou net vir die agb Huis sê dat hulle katvoet moet loop, want diegene wat hulle tot dusver versamel het, is ‘n bietjie pale- faced'', en 'n bietjie uit die ou dae uit. Die Minister is nie hier nie, seker omdat hy op die oomblik 'n oproep het van mnr Tony Leon om darem daardieimage’’ reg te stel, veral met die oog op die munisipale verkiesings. Ons kan hierdie begrotingspos om daardie rede dus nie steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: Madam Speaker, this evening before supper we almost decided to support the Vote, because we saw the Minister for Provincial and Local Government talking to the Minister of Finance for a change. We hoped that it was about more money for this department, to build their capacity, and to launch the transition to the new local government system properly. Then we came back after supper this evening and noticed that the Minister was missing. He is not here. Now, this is how the department works - when he should be present, he is absent, and when he should be absent, he is present.

This department is facing one of the greatest challenges concerning the constitutional development of South African politics that any department has probably ever had to deal with in this Parliament. The importance of the step this department must take, namely to lead South Africa into a new dispensation in local government, is being undermined owing to a department that does not have the capacity to do the work it should do, and owing to being underfinanced.

Secondly, one gets the feeling that there is no proper control over this department and its activities, and that is why we cannot support his Vote. There is a further aspect that has emerged today. The party here to my left is collecting former ministers who were entrusted with local government in the apartheid era on their side. I just want to tell the House that they should exercise caution, because those they have collected thus far are a bit ``pale-faced’’ and date back to the old days somewhat. The Minister is not here, probably because he is now taking a call from Mr Tony Leon about rectifying that image, especially with a view to the municipal elections. For that reason we cannot support this Vote. [Interjections.]]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, what still remains a concern is the equitable share of the national revenue to local government, and what formula is used to decide on the equitable share.

What was not clear in the budget was what the financial implications would be for the establishment of new municipalities and the cost of the transition. Most municipalities do not have the capacity to raise their own revenue to make it economically and financially viable. This brings us to the controversial Bill on property rates. The communities are very concerned about this proposal, especially the once disenfranchised communities, who feel that they will be penalised a second time, because of these increases. They feel that it will cause greater hardship and many of them might even lose their homes.

However, with all our concerns, the ACDP will, with reservations, support the Vote and I just feel that we need to stress that not enough is being done to turn the tide of unemployment and poverty in many of our poorer communities.

Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, die VF is jammer dat die agb Minister nie op die oomblik in die Raad is nie. Ek wil my spesifiek bepaal by twee punte. Die eerste is dat tydens die bespreking van die agb Minister se begrotingspos daar spesifiek gepraat is oor die sogenaamde artikel 185- kommissie, naamlik die kommissie van regte van gemeenskappe. Die Minister was bekommerd daaroor dat die VF na bewering die standpunt sou inneem dat die tegniese komitee nie vinnig genoeg gewerk het nie. Die VF het nooit verwys na die tegniese komitee wat nie sy werk vinnig genoeg gedoen het nie, maar juis na die Regering se vertraging van die hele proses vanaf die finalisering van die Grondwet in 1996 tot en met die tegniese komitee se implementering.

Die tweede punt wat betref die probleem wat die VF het met dié departement se werksaamhede handel oor plaaslike regering. Die blote reg wat ‘n individu het om as sodanig te stem beteken nie noodwendig op sy eie demokrasie nie. Die probleem met die huidige plaaslike regeringsverkiesings en proses waarheen ons beweeg, gaan in die praktyk beteken dat, as gevolg van die afbakeningsproses, en as gevolg van die hele proses wat daaruit gaan voortvloei, verskeie gemeenskappe in Suid-Afrika in iedere en feitlik elke dorp, ontmagtig of ``disempowered’’ gaan word as gevolg van die getallesituasie, en as gevolg van die wyse waarop die afbakening plaasgevind het. Wat dit gaan vererger, is die volgende: daardie gemeenskappe wat gaan vind dat hulle ontmagtig is, gaan in ‘n groot mate die las opgelê word om die belastings in daardie gemeenskappe te betaal.

Agb lede sal onthou dat die Amerikaanse Revolusie sy oorsprong gehad het by die slagspreuk, ``no taxation without representation’’. Die praktiese proses mag daartoe lei, met hierdie hele proses, dat gemeenskappe gaan vind dat hulle geen werklike inspraak gaan hê op plaaslike regeringsvlak nie, dat hulle totaal ontmagtig gaan word, maar dat daar van hulle verwag gaan word om die finansiële las te dra. Daardie proses is ‘n resep vir probleme en konflik in Suid-Afrika en sal dringend opgelos moet word. In die lig daarvan sal die VF nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, the FF regrets that the hon the Minister is not in the House at present. I want to concentrate on two aspects specifically. The first is that during the discussion on the hon the Minister’s Vote specific mention was made of the so-called section 185 commission, namely the commission on the rights of communities. The Minister was concerned that the FF had allegedly taken the stand that the technical committee had not worked quickly enough. The FF never said that the technical committee had not done its work quickly enough, but that the Government had delayed the whole process from the finalisation of the Constitution in 1996 up to and including the implementation of the technical committee.

The second point relating to the problem that the FF has with the activities of this department concerns local government. The mere right a person has to vote as such does not necessarily mean democracy, if considered in isolation. The problem with the present local government elections and the process towards which we are moving, will in practice mean that, owing to the demarcation process and owing to the entire process that will emanate from it, various communities in South Africa in virtually every town will be disempowered because of the situation in respect of numbers, and owing to the way in which the demarcation took place. What is going to exacerbate this is the following: those communities that will find that they have been disempowered, will to a great degree be burdened with the liability to pay the taxes in those communities.

Hon members will remember that the American Revolution had its origin in the slogan, ``no taxation without representation’’. The practical process, in this whole process, may lead to communities finding that they have no real say at local government level, that they will be completely disempowered, but that they will be expected to carry the financial burden. That process is a recipe for problems and conflict in South Africa and will have to be resolved urgently. In the light of that the FF will not support this Vote.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, om eerlik te wees moet ek sê dat plaaslike bestuur in baie gevalle in ons land in ‘n ernstige toestand is. Baie munisipaliteite is tegnies bankrot en ander op die rand van bankrotskap. Verder is daar probleme met die afbakening van munisipaliteite ten opsigte waarvan daar nie naastenby gepoog is om die werklik spesifieke eie belange van gemeenskappe in ag te neem nie. Duidelike probleme hier is sekerlik die geval van Orania waarna verwys is, asook die posisie van tradisionele leiers. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, to be honest, I must say that in many cases in our country local government is in a serious state. Many municipalities are technically bankrupt and others are on the brink of bankruptcy. Furthermore there are problems with the demarcation of municipalities, in respect of which no effort at all was made to take the specific individual interests of communities into consideration. Definite problems here are certainly the case of Orania, to which reference has been made, as well as the position of traditional leaders.]

This department is preparing the section 185 commission Bill. Although the AEB is not entirely satisfied with that, we believe that there is an avenue open through which the fundamental issue of the rights of linguistic, cultural and religious communities can be addressed. I am positive about that.

In die laaste plek skep die konsepwetsontwerp oor eiendomsbelasting wat in omloop is baie groot onsekerheid. Ons sien dat dit al die tiende uitgawe daarvan is. Tydens die begrotingspos van die Minister van Finansies het ek gevra vir groter toewysing aan munisipaliteite. Dit het nie gebeur nie. Ek wil weet of ons dan nou ‘n groter belading gaan kry op die tweede linie, naamlik op plaaslike belasting. In die lig van hierdie onsekerhede sal die AEB dan ook nie hierdie begroting kan steun nie, alhoewel ons positief is oor die sake wat verband hou met die artikel 185-kommissie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Lastly, the draft Bill on property rates that is doing the rounds is creating great uncertainty. We see that the tenth version has already been published. During the discussion of the Minister of Finance’s Vote, I asked for a larger allocation for municipalities. That did not happen. I want to know whether there is now going to be a heavier load on the second line, namely local tax. In the light of these uncertainties the AEB will be unable to support this budget, although we are positive regarding matters relating to the section 185 commission. [Interjections.]]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Speaker, Comrades, friends, nothing new, nothing original, but rather boring issues, frankly, have been raised here. All these issues were, in fact, addressed in the 15-page report that appeared in the ATCs last week.

It is very boring to have to say this, because all the opposition parties know about it, but I will say it, yet again. Firstly, with regard to financial viability … [Interjections.]

If the hon member can give me a moment … yes, indeed, there are difficulties with the current municipalities. That is precisely why we have a demarcation process under way which is almost complete. We have a major local government financial review under way which is looking at the issue of the equitable share, the fiscal powers between district councils and local councils, national tariff policy, and a wide range of other issues. Of course, demarcation in and of itself will not solve these problems, but will provide a foundation to address them.

Regarding the issue of transition, we have said it before and we will say it again: We could not cost the transition until the demarcation process had been completed and we had a better sense of the nature and number of the new municipalities. [Interjections.] As the opposition parties know, there is a process under way, which includes the Departments of Finance and of Provincial and Local Government, the Demarcation Board and the Financial and Fiscal Commission, to do precisely that. [Interjections.]

With regard to the issue of the rates Bill, as we know so well, this rates scaremongering is totally unfounded. Only today at about 13:30, the Minister met the opposition parties and communicated that to them. In fact, the new draft is being processed. It will come before the portfolio committee shortly, but even before that, early in July, it will be published for public comment.

With regard to the local government education and training matter, of course, Seta has now been created and will address those issues. With regard to traditional leadership, as we know, some two weeks ago, on 6 and 7 June, this very Parliament had a major public hearing. The process continues on 13 June and 1 July. In fact, we understand from the press and other sources that the President will, in fact, be meeting the traditional leaders.

Finally, regarding the section 185 commission, that Bill will reach us in July and will, hopefully, be processed before 24 July. What about local economic development? I have barely begun, but I will forego it for now. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Vote No 22 agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party, Freedom Front and Afrikaner Eenheidbeweging dissenting).

Vote No 23 - Public Enterprises - put.

Declarations of vote: Ms R TALJAART: Madam Speaker, Minister of Public Enterprises and hon members, in Vision 2004, the department states its strategic objective as follows:

Given South Africa’s development path historically, the restructuring programme of the Department of Public Enterprises is guided by a strategic objective that seeks to balance economic and social objectives. In this strategic objective vests the judgment on the Minister’s Vote.

Investors will base their investment decisions, as will the DP its support or opposition to his work, on where the balance will fall between economic and social objectives, and on whether we will sacrifice economic objectives wholesale in selected instances in the interests, purely, of social policy or a political agenda.

In having to decide on this Vote, I was particularly constrained by the absence of a policy document to make a guided decision. The only guidelines I was left with were those that Minister released in his Vote speech in April, primarily among which I would cite the Government’s priorities and the restructuring timetable for the next four years which we are awaiting in his policy document.

The Vote of his department forms a further strategic building block in the transformation of the department into a streamlined, corporate-minded unit focused on privatisation. The DP hopes to see a unit that will focus its attention on a restructuring timetable and a privatisation timetable that would not only meet our expectations, but also the expectations of the international investment community.

We have seen very little detail on the privatisation of the big four, that is, Transnet, Eskom, Telkom and Denel, despite waiting for a policy document on the privatisation process for six months since the December interministerial Cabinet committee lekgotla on restructuring. Next week exactly one year will have lapsed since the headline-grabbing announcement on the SAA privatisation by our President. I say to the hon the Minister that this is what we need. We need more announcements, such as the SAA announcement. We need more success stories, such as the SAA success story.

In the absence of the Minister’s policy document, I regret that we do not support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr M D MSOMI: Madam Speaker, South Africa like a bear has come in out of the cold of a long winter of isolation and discontent, lean, fit and ready to come of age. It has carved for itself a niche position in the global village to become a dynamic player in the restructuring, transformation and orderly privatisation of state-owned enterprises.

That bear is figuratively represented by the hon the Minister of Public Enterprises, his department, officials and the management of the state- owned enterprises. The department is well resourced to tackle the difficult task of turning around the state-owned enterprises, destined for the business scrapheap, from becoming monumental failures of our time.

The budget represents the vision of the majority of people in South Africa, which is to become a regional and global player in business and in the economic development of the majority. For this reason, the IFP supports the budget. [Applause.]

Mr S T BELOT: Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the ANC to support this budget. The Department of Public Enterprises has succeeded in making sure that the state-owned enterprises fulfil their mandate.

According to today’s Business Day, for example, Transnet has reported positive results, and so have many others. I thank the Comrade Minister for that. The department has put in place systems and processes that will make sure that those state-owned enterprises are viable. I want to appeal to all members whenever we deal with the restructuring process, that we deal with the economy of the country.

Yesterday hon Minister Alec Erwin appealed to members, whenever they dealt with the economy of the country, to be very careful of the signals that they sent out. Let us not try to score political points. Those who oppose this budget are not arguing or questioning the viability and profitability of the state-owned businesses. They are not questioning whether the enterprises are achieving the social programmes for which they were intended. They are deliberately avoiding the question, because they know that those enterprises have had a turnaround and are achieving what they are meant to.

It is not correct to say that there is no policy that guides this process of restructuring. Cabinet has considered the policy framework and it will be released when the appropriate time comes. I need to say to hon members that we are not going to be rushed into selling state assets. Government is going to move at a very cautious speed, a speed that will make us rich and get what we have set ourselves. We support this budget. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 272: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan- Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Magubane, N E; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa- Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smit, H A; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 32: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Singh, A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.

Vote No 23 accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 24 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.

Vote No 25 - Public Service Commission - put and agreed to.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I just want to assure the House that the fact that they are adopting this Vote does not mean that salaries for MPs will not be dropped. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, I am waiting to draw your attention and that of the Minister of Finance to the fact of how hard members work. I hope you have noted that. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, will the hon the Minister consider overtime pay?

The SPEAKER: Order! I think that should also be taken into account.

Vote No 26 - Public Works - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S E OPPERMAN: Madam Speaker, grave concern was expressed at the meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on Wednesday, 7 June, about the present state of financial management and control in the Department of Public Works. Serious implications were attached to that concern. It is clear that, unless Government becomes serious in dealing with the finances entrusted to it, it will surely lead to more disasters. We need skilled people in key positions. It was disturbing to hear at the same meeting that some officials had refused to co-operate with the Auditor- General. Do these officials have different options to choose from?

The Deputy Chairperson of this House, the hon Dr Rajoo, proposed, during that same meeting, a thorough investigation into what he suggested could be sweetheart agreements that are costing the taxpayers of our country millions of rands. In spite of the fact that the director-general of the department is new, it is important that every official must realise his or her responsibility and, therefore, accountability. Until such time as we get our house in order in the Department of Public Works, we cannot support this Vote.

INkosi M W HLENGWA: Somlomo namalungu ahloniphekile, siyasisekela iSabiwomali esinikezwe umNyango wezemiSebenzi, nanxa kunesidingo esikhulu sokwengeza ukuze kushatshalaliswe ubuphofu kuleyo miphakathi eyayilahlwe ngaphandle okwenyongo yenyathi kwezentuthuko, ngesikhathi sombuso wencindezelo.

Kuyiqiniso ukuthi umhlonishwa onguNgqongqoshe wezemiSebenzi uwufice lo mNyango kukhona izinto ezidinga ukulungiswa njengokuthi nje kwakunezikhala ezikhundleni eziphezulu ezinjengesomQondisi-Jikelele womnyango. Siyamethemba uNgqongqoshe ukuthi uzozilungisa lezo zinto ayezifice zonakele.

Sifisa ukukhuthaza umnyango ekusebenzisaneni ngokubambisana nabaholi bomdabu - amakhosi phela - ukuze kugwemeke ukubukeka kwamakhosi njengezigxivizo nje emsebenzini wentuthuko emiphakathini eholwa yiwo amakhosi.

Iqembu leNkatha liyasisekela lesi Sabiwomali. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Chief M W HLENGWA: Madam Speaker and hon members, we support the Vote of the Department of Public Works, although there is still a great need to increase it so that we can eradicate poverty in the communities that were marginalised by the apartheid government as far as development is concerned.

It is true that when the hon the Minister took this position, there were things in this department that needed to be corrected. For example, senior posts like the posts of Director-General are still vacant. We hope that the hon the Minister will rectify all those things that were not corrected before she became Minister.

We wish to encourage the Department to work together with the amakhosi so as to dismiss the notion that they are the rubber stamps of the department when it comes to the development of the rural areas.

In conclusion, the IFP supports this Vote. [Applause.]]

Mnr A S VAN DER MERWE: Mevrou die Speaker, dit is algemene kennis dat die Departement van Openbare Werke een van die departemente in die staatsdiens is wat die swakste bestuur word. Gelukkig het die agb Minister ‘n nuwe direkteur-generaal en adjunkdirekteur-generaal aangestel en ons sien met verwagting uit na die nuwe jaar.

Die nuwe direkteur-generaal erken dat daar ‘n gebrek aan toesig en beheermaatreëls was. Verder erken hy dat daar ‘n gebrek aan verantwoordbaarheid in verskeie bestuurstrukture bestaan het. Daarbenewens het hy die ontsettende verskoning dat daar nie interne beheermaatreëls bestaan het nie. Hy verwys ook na die onkundigheid van die departement ten opsigte van staatstenderraadprosedures, en ook die onkundigheid wat daarmee verband hou dat personeel nie weet dat kontrakte op skrif behoort te wees nie, of dat betalings met stawende en magtigingsdokumentasie gepaard moet gaan nie.

Die feit dat die Komitee oor Openbare Rekenings besluit het om nie meer te wag vir die Ouditeur-generaal se volgende verslag nie, maar op ‘n gereelde basis fisiek te gaan kyk of beplande bestuursmaatreëls wel in plek is, is tog ‘n rede tot kommer. Dit is ‘n klad op die naam van die departement dat daar van soveel kundigheid ontslae geraak is, en dat dit vervang is met totale onkundigheid.

Ons stem teen die begrotingspos omdat geld wat bestem is vir die verligting van armoede, naamlik R226 miljoen, nie gebruik is nie. Dit dui op ‘n onvermoë in die departement om die geld aan te wend, en dit vir so ‘n belangrike saak. Dit is alles net omdat regstellende optrede voorkeur geniet bo die verligting van armoede. ‘n Mens ys om te dink hoe doeltreffend die aanwending van geld wat wel bestee is, geskied het. Ons stem teen hierdie begrotingspos. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr A S VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, it is general knowledge that the Department of Public Works is one of the departments in the Public Service which is most poorly managed. Fortunately the hon the Minister has appointed a new director-general and deputy director-general and we await the new year with anticipation.

The new director-general admits that there was a lack of supervision and control measures. He furthermore admits that there was a lack of accountability in various management structures. Apart from that he has the appalling excuse that internal control measures did not exist. He has also referred to the lack of expertise in the department with regard to State Tender Board procedures, and also the lack of expertise which related to the fact that staff do not know that contracts should be in writing, or that payments must be accompanied by corroborative and authorisating documentation.

The fact that the Committee on Public Accounts has decided not to wait for the Auditor-General’s next report, but physically to check on a regular basis whether the planned management measures are indeed in place, is surely a cause for concern. It is a blot on the name of the department that so much expertise was shed, and that it was replaced with total ignorance.

We are voting against the Vote because money which was voted for the relief of poverty, namely R226 million, was not used. This indicates an inability within the department to utilise the money, and for such an important matter too. This is all simply because affirmative action receives preference to the relief of poverty. One shudders to think how efficiently the utilisation of money which was indeed spent, took place. We are voting against this Vote. [Interjections.]]

Adv Z L MADASA: Somlomo, siyahambisana neVoti yobekekileyo nendimhloniphileyo uNkszn Sigcau. Sixhalabile kodwa.

Ekuqaleni konyaka sathi siyiKomiti yeNkonzo yakwaRhulumente sahambela kwiphondo laseMpuma Koloni, apho aphuma khona naye uMphathiswa. Saya nakwelakhe isebe. Sabona into embi phaya, amagosa engqunga, esoyika ukuhlangana nathi. Ethubeni beza, bethu. Babenkwantya besoyika ubani ebajongile nje.

Isizathu soko babesithi kukuba abayazi nabo ukuba bathini na, bevuma ukuba izinto azintlanga kwelaa phondo. Xa izinto zingentlanga kwiSebe leNkonzo yakwaRhumente azibi ntle ke kuwo onke amasebe.

Makazame ke uNkszn Sigcau, kuba abantu bajonge kuye. Siyamxhasa ke phofu kwiVoti le. (Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)

[Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, we support hon Minister Sigcau’s Vote, but we are apprehensive.

At the beginning of the year we, as the Portfolio Committee on Public Works, visited the Eastern Cape where she also comes from. We visited her department. What we saw there was awful. The officers there were going around in circles, because they were reluctant to meet us. Eventually they came to meet us, but fear was written all over their faces.

The reason for that, as they themselves admitted, was that they did not know what to say to us, as things were not going well at all in that province. Once things go wrong in the Public Works Department, they go wrong in all other departments. The hon the Minister should please try and do something, because people look up to her. However, we support her Vote.]

Mr E M SIGWELA: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports the Vote. We are aware of the heavy responsibilities of the Department of Public Works. It has to care for the accommodation requirements of all the other departments. It has to care for state property which is valued at R120 billion and needs a budget for the maintenance and proper management of all those assets. We in the ANC know that the Minister’s department is the hope of many disadvantaged, emerging contractors who are eagerly looking forward to and standing to gain a lot from the emerging contractor development programmes.

We cannot forget that, in the very near past, it was a crime for Africans here in the Western Cape to work in their trades - the trades that they were qualified for. I cannot forget, in particular, the trucking of nearly 2 000 workers in the winter of 1981 by Piet Koornhof out of the Cape Peninsula and dumping them in the Transkei in Umtata to starve and die there. The community-based Public Works programme, which is at the forefront of the job creation and poverty alleviation programme of the ANC Government, is looked upon by the rural communities as their hope for salvation from the quagmire of a lack of development and grim poverty which are the legacies with which former white minority regimes left us.

We are particularly happy that this programme is currently focusing on the creation of Community Production Centres - the CPCs, not the Coloured People’s Congress - and multipurpose centres - MPCs, not Members of the Provincial Council - based on the concept of rehabilitating existing disused, unproductive assets … [Interjections.] We support the budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 262: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Magubane, N E; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba- Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 50: Andrew, K M; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Waters, M.

Vote No 26 accordingly agreed to.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: It is now the second time tonight that Minister Erwin has engaged in spread betting. I really ask you please to call him to order and say that this is not allowed in this House! [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Order! I will take that on advisement, consider it and then report back to you.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, we would like you to confirm that the bookies did not get to the table this evening. [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Is that what you were doing when you came out … [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Speaker, I think it is really reprehensible to accuse an hon Minister of spread betting. I am merely trying a bit of political education. [Laughter.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, yes, he has just referred to himself as the Minister of Spread Betting. I think that is probably exactly where it lies at the present time. [Laughter.]

Vote No 27 - SA Management Development Institute - put and agreed to.

Vote No 28 - SA Police Service - put.

Declarations of vote:

Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, owing to the absence of the Minister of Safety and Security in the House, I will ask his official whisperer, the hon Ndlovu, to convey the message to him in the corridors sometime. [Interjections.]

Yesterday I witnessed a very sad thing in this House. I saw a cowboy crying, and that being our chief cowboy. When the Minister, the very person tasked with ensuring safety and security in this House, complains in Parliament to the President about people operating and acting outside the scope of the law, it tends to underline his inability to successfully address crime in this country.

The reason for this - and also the reason why the DP cannot support this SA Police Service budget - is the very fact that, while we are talking about empowering the people, owing to manpower and resource shortages we are disempowering the very people that must keep us safe, the bobby on the beat. At every police station we heard the same story - at least 50% understaffed, vehicle shortages and a lack of other resources. The budget makes provision for 300 new personnel for the Firearms Control Bill and millions of rands for the administrative implementation, but does not at all address its enforcement.

Where are the police officers who should go round ensuring compliance with this Bill, thus making provision for the grandiose plans of the national commissioner? Almost nothing is budgeted for the plight of police officers on the street, not only in terms of being understaffed and underresourced, but also very much so in terms of improving their service conditions, which are a disgrace to this Government.

I trust the Minister’s whisperer will explain to him why we cannot support this Vote, while our people are being murdered, raped and robbed every day on the streets of our country. [Interjections.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, ngaso sonke isikhathi uma kufanele silwe nezigebengu kufuneka amaphoyisa abe nazo izinto zokulwa nazo ukuze sikwazi ukubhekana nazo, ngqo, emehlweni.

Okwesibili, kufuneka sikhuphule umdlandla wokusebenza kwamaphoyisa, ikakhulukazi ezimweni asebenza phansi kwazo. Izimo asebenza phansi kwazo zibukhuni kakhulu. Abanye abakhokhelwa ngendlela okufanele ukuthi bakhokhelwe ngayo. Abanye basebenza amahora amade kakhulu angaphezu kwabanqunyelwe wona, kanti abanye basebenza isikhathi eside kakhulu besemahhovisi. Ngakho-ke, mayelana nezikhathi abasebenza ngazo, bezinikela emsebenzini omkhulu kangaka, kubonakala ngokusobala ukuthi bazinikela ngempilo yabo yonke.

Kufuneka ngaso sonke isikhathi, thina njengoHulumeni, sibabhekele ukuze bakwazi ukukhokheleka kahle futhi bakwazi ukusebenza kahle. Ngamanye amazwi kufuneka ngaso sonke isikhathi sibone ukuthi, uma kufanele bakhushulwe ezikhundleni zabo, bakwazi ukukhushulwa, kungavimbeleki lokho ngenxa yokuthi imali ayikho. Kudingeka sizame ukuyithola imali ukuze bakwazi ukuthola izikhundla ezikahle.

Okwesithathu, kufanele sizame ukuthi sibalekelele ngomxhaso kwezempilo ukuze bakwazi ukukhokhelwa ngokugcwele yonke imali eqondene nokuthola usizo lokwelashwa. Kuyathokozisa ukubona ukuzinikela kwabo, besebenza amahora angaphezu kwanqunyelwe ngaso sonke isikhathi. Kodwa, ngaso sonke isikhathi kufuneka, thina njengoHulumeni, sikwazi ukuhlangabezana nabo kuzo zonke izimfuno zabo nezikhalo zabo.

Kubuhlungu-ke ukuzwa ukuthi njengoba sengaziwa ukuthi umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe uhleba nami, kube khona abantu abakujivazayo lokho ngoba uma umfowethu ekhuluma nami, usuke ekhuluma nami, akuyona imfihlo leyo. Uma bengebona abafowabo kuye, akundaba yami leyo. [Uhleko.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, firstly, if we want to fight criminals, we need to arm our police officers so that they will be able to confront them.

Secondly, we should create incentives in the job of policing, especially because of the circumstances under which they work. They work under difficult conditions indeed. Some are not paid in the way that they should be. Others work longer hours than they are supposed to, while some work long hours in offices. Looking at their working hours, during which they commit themselves to this difficult job, it is clear that they are sacrificing the whole of their lives.

We as the Government have to consider the possibility of paying them fairly so that they will be able to work well. We should always know when it is time to promote those who qualify, without being prevented by financial constraints. We should raise money so that they will be able to obtain positions that suit them.

Thirdly, we should assist them with medical aid so that they will be able to pay for all the expenses pertaining to medical treatment. We appreciate their commitment and their willingness always to even work overtime. We as the Government should be able to meet all of their demands and grievances.

It is saddening to hear people criticising the fact that the hon the Minister and I have some secrets. It is bad, because if the hon the Minister talks to me, that is not a secret. If those critics are not friends of the Minister, it is none of my business. [Applause.]]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Madam Speaker, despite the fact that the Minister of Safety and Security has declared war on criminals and even arrested one single-handedly, despite the fact that the national commissioner introduced an innovative approach to combating crime and despite the commitment by a very capable Deputy Minister, the New NP cannot support this Vote, for the following reasons: The budget is totally inadequate to combat crime or to improve the working conditions of the SA Police Service. The shortage of 7 000 trained police officers and 7 860 vehicles and equipment worth R85,2 million are not being addressed in the budget. [Interjections.] Furthermore, the Government has failed to fulfil its most basic responsibility, namely to protect its citizens. Om dié rede is daar al twee siviele eise teen die Regering ingestel van R110 miljoen en R10 miljoen onderskeidelik. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is die enigste land in die wêreld waar so iets gebeur.

Daar is ook ‘n laaste rede. Die begroting maak voorsiening vir ‘n wapenbeheerwetsontwerp wat nie die probleem van onwettige wapens in Suid- Afrika sal oplos nie, maar wat duisende wetsgehoorsame wapeneienaars oornag in kriminele gaan verander. Ons is dus teen hierdie begrotingspos gekant. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It is for this reason that two civil claims of R110 million and R10 million respectively have been instituted against the Government. [Interjections.] This is the only country in the world where this has happened. There is also a last reason. The budget makes provision for a Firearms Control Bill which will not solve the problem of illegal firearms in South Africa, but which will change thousands of law-abiding firearms owners into criminals overnight. Therefore, we are opposed to this Vote. [Interjections.]]

Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, we believe that the integrated, holistic approach adopted by the SA Police Service is a step in the right direction in fighting crime. Though more will always be welcome, the UDM believes that the increase of R1 billion in the budget will go some way towards addressing the shortcomings in the department. The UDM does, however, call on the Minister and his department to build into upcoming budgets funds that will drastically improve the conditions of service of members of the SA Police Service.

The time has arrived for South Africans to unite as one behind the SA Police Service and its members in the fight against crime. The first line of defence is the SAPS and its dedicated members. The community should form a shield around the SAPS. This House should set the example, in that political parties should commit themselves and demonstrate their commitment by working actively in finding solutions and improving the framework within which the SAPS functions. This requires much more than verbal criticism. It requires active participation within the committee to contribute to and improve the Bills before us and initiate other actions that will contribute positively to achieving the aims and objectives of this department. The UDM wishes the Minister, the command structures and all members of the SAPS well in their fight against crime and providing a safe environment for all South Africans. We will support the Vote.

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, although there are various provisions in our legislation to provide protection or limited compensation to victims of crime, such as the Criminal Procedure Act, Probation Services Act, Prevention of Family Violence Act and Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, there can be no doubt that victims have been neglected in South Africa. The perception is created that the South African legal system is geared to the protection of the rights of the offender whilst victims enjoy little protection. Whilst the National Crime Prevention Strategy sought to address the needs of victims by setting up a national programme in victim empowerment, much still needs to be done in this regard.

The international community agreed, in the 1985 United Nations Victims Declaration, on the following rights for victims of crime: Firstly, the right to be treated with respect and recognition; secondly, the right to be referred to adequate support services; thirdly, the right to receive information on the progress of the case; fourthly, the right to be present and to speak at all crucial stages of criminal proceedings; fifthly, the right to protection of physical safety and privacy; and, sixthly, the right to restitution from the offender.

The ACDP welcomes the victim empowerment programmes of the SAPS and the budgetary allocations for these, but calls for more resources to be allocated to assist victims of crime. Subject to the above reservations, the ACDP supports this Vote. [Interjections.]

Genl C L VILJOEN: Mevrou die Speaker, ek mag stroomop wees, maar om die SAPD alleen aanspreeklik te hou vir misdaad, is nie reg nie en dit wys ook nie dat mense verstaan wat met misdaad in die land aan die gang is nie. Ek voel verder dat om die SAPD te straf vir die 800 boere wat sedert 1994 wreedaardig gesterf het en selfs vir die toenemende voorkoms van plaasaanvalle, is ook nie billik nie.

Sou ek as ‘n party vandag hier staan en miskien ligtelik, maar miskien ook baie ernstig vir partypolitieke doeleindes, met my stem demonstreer dat ek ‘n organisasie in uniform wil afsny van fondse, dan voel ek dit het ‘n invloed op daardie geüniformdes se selfbeeld. Dit kan ons ook nie bekostig nie. Die hele ANC-regering moet die aanspreeklikheid vir hierdie saak aanvaar. As ons eerstens misdaad in die algemeen, tweedens spesifiek die feit dat sewe maal meer boere per 100 000 vermoor word as ander Suid- Afrikaners, derdens die feit dat hierdie departement saam met die susterdepartemente van Justisie, Korrektiewe Dienste en die SANW gekoördineerd behoort op te tree, en laastens die ingewikkeldheid van die oorsake van misdaad, wat geskiedkundige, ekonomiese en sielkundige grondslae het, alles in ag neem, dan lê die probleem van misdaad in Suid- Afrika baie wyer as net by die SAPD.

As ek die President was, het ek ‘n Adjunkpresident aangestel om spesifiek te kyk na landsveiligheid. Die koördinasie binne die Regering is nodig; een polisiemag - soos die Grondwet sê - is goed, maar hy moet groter desentralisasie na die laer vlak en na gemeenskappe bewerkstellig en daar moet ‘n diepgaande ondersoek kom, dan kan die herorganisasie van al die departemente volg. Om dus solidariteit teenoor die SAPD en my geüniformde kollegas te toon sal die VF hierdie begroting tog steun. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Madam Speaker, I may be swimming against the stream, but to hold the SAPS alone accountable for crime, is not right and also indicates that people do not understand what is happening in the country with regard to crime. I furthermore feel that to punish the SAPS for the 800 farmers who have died cruelly since 1994, and even for the increasing incidence of farm attacks, is also not fair.

If I as a party were to stand here today and perhaps lightly, but perhaps also very seriously for party-political purposes, demonstrate with my vote that I want to cut an organisation in uniform off from funding, I feel that this will have an effect on the self-image of those in uniform. We can also not afford this. The entire ANC Government must accept responsibility for this matter. If we take into account, firstly, crime in general, secondly, specifically the fact that seven times more farmers per 100 000 are murdered than any other South Africans, thirdly, the fact that this department together with the sister departments of Justice, Correctional Services and the SANDF should act in a co-ordinated manner, and, finally, the intricacy of the causes of crime, which have historical, economic and psychological foundations, the problem of crime in South Africa is attributable to far more than merely the SAPS.

If I were the President, I would appoint a Deputy President specifically to look at public safety. Co-ordination within the Government is necessary; one police force - as the Constitution says - is good, but it must achieve greater decentralisation to the lower levels and to communities and a far- reaching investigation must take place, which can be followed by the reorganisation of all the departments. Therefore, to display solidarity with the SAPS and my uniformed colleagues, the FF will support this Vote after all.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, bearing in mind the existing backlog in personnel, the fact that some 40 000 employees who have qualified for promotion have not been promoted during the past two years and the fact that the superintendent of police in Mpumalanga has acknowledged that a lack of vehicles is seriously limiting the ability of the police, the question may be asked whether, within the present budget, the Minister has a snowball’s hope of reforming the SAPS into a body which can fulfil its duty of protecting our lives and property.

Die personeelsituasie in die Polisie is só kritiek dat die Minister nou al self arrestasies moet uitvoer! ‘n Saak wat kritieke afmetings aanneem, is plaasmoorde met ‘n totaal van 4 730 sedert 1992. Laat ons maar die feite in die oë kyk: hierdie kritieke situasie word nie met die doelgerigtheid deur die Regering aangepak wat dit vereis nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The personnel situation in the Police is so critical that the Minister himself now has to make arrests! A matter which is assuming critical proportions is that of farm murders, with a total of 4 730 since 1992. Let us face facts: This critical situation is not being tackled by the Government with the single-mindedness of purpose that it demands.]

As regards the proposed Firearms Control Bill, despite an unprecedented public outcry and petitions signed by hundreds of thousands of law-abiding citizens, despite enough public presentations to fill the four telephone directories that were blown up in Stalplein this morning, the chairperson of the portfolio committee said, ``you can bluff and `skel’ [shout] as much as you wish, we are elected by the public and the ANC will decide’’. He said this despite section 59 of the Constitution, which boasts about public access to and involvement in the National Assembly.

Mr Paul Swart of the DP quoted Naas Botha when he said, ``cowboys don’t cry’’. I also want to agree with Naas Botha. At the end of the day, the AEB cannot support this Vote.

Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Speaker, I want again to say to the DP, the New NP and the FF that crime is the biggest challenge facing our young democracy, and I do not think they understand that, although they might say that they understand it. [Interjections.]

We support this budget, but we want to appeal to the DP to stop their game. Crime is a serious challenge. They must stop turning it into a political football, to the point where they believe their own lies. They keep on telling the public and themselves that nothing is adequate in the department. They say there are not enough policemen, there are not enough funds and nothing is adequate in the department. They believe their own lies.

When efforts are made to combat crime, when laws are drafted which are aimed at bringing down the levels of crime, they are the first to oppose them. When we talk about firearms control, which is aimed at controlling the proliferation of arms, they are the first to say that they do not support that. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, indeed I am. The hon member who is addressing the House has accused the hon Mr Ellis or myself of telling lies. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, did you say that?

Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Speaker, what I said, and I want to repeat it so that he can understand - because I know he does not understand anything in South Africa these days - is that the DP keeps on telling the public lies about what is wrong and what is lacking in the SAPS. [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, condemned out of his own mouth. The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, I think you need to withdraw the reference to the members telling lies.

Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Speaker, let me say that the DP, the New NP and the FF are telling untruths, and I withdraw. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Order! The member has withdrawn. [Interjections.]

Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Speaker, just before I finish, I want to warn the FF that the game that they have been playing for the last five years is over. [Interjections.] The farmers are not represented by them. They have said openly and unequivocally that there is no party in this House that can claim to be talking on behalf of farmers. We have supporters who are farmers just like the FF has supporters who are farmers. So, the farmers are speaking for themselves.

So, if the opposition thinks that it is talking for farmers, they must go and look for some other people to talk to. We are just as concerned about farmers as they are. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Division demanded.

The SPEAKER: Order! The bells are ringing, Minister Manuel. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, I was just going to ask if you could take the bets early. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The House divided:

AYES - 270: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 52: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Baloi, G E; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Waters, M.

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister Manuel, it may be more profitable if you actually bet on the total numbers that vote. I have been noticing the differences.

Vote No 28 accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 29 - Sport and Recreation - put.

Declarations of vote:

Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, this is the third time today I have risen to declare, and the first time I find the relevant Minister in the House. Maybe, I have something nice to say about the Minister of Sport and Recreation. I want to acknowledge the positive role he has played in rejecting racial quotas and the equally unacceptable behaviour of Nocsa in preventing the men’s hockey team from going to the Olympic Games. I thank him for that role that he is playing.

As a liberal party, the DP supports the concept of a lean and efficient state. These unfortunately are not the words I would use to describe the Department of Sport and Recreation. Out of the department’s R57 million budget this year R22 million, an incredible 39%, will be spent on the National Sports Commission. We have an even more amazing 21% of the entire department’s budget being spent on salaries and the administration of the commission.

Frankly, common sense must ask why South Africa needs a sports commission operating in parallel with the Department of Sport and Recreation. The commission was originally meant to replace the National Sports Council and the department, once the sports Ministry was dissolved in line with the recommendations of a presidential inquiry into the structure of governance. This never happened.

The commission, which came into effect last year, is now a really useful accessory to the department. While, in theory, the two have separate functions, when one comprehends the reality of the R57 million Sports budget, the arrangement seems unwieldy and extravagant. We believe in giving credit where it is due, and we did so to the hon the Minister. However, we also believe in a lean and efficient state. The DP cannot support this budget. [Interjections.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: Madam Speaker, the IFP will be supporting the Vote for Sport and Recreation. We are, however, in agreement with the Minister, as he pointed out in his budget speech, that the amounts budgeted for are completely inadequate. Government is paying very good lip service to the importance of sport in nation-building. However, when one looks at the national sport budget in terms of rands and cents, one does not really get the impression that it is all that serious about this matter. There is no adhesive in our country that can bond South Africans of different languages, cultures and persuasions together in the way sport can. Government should not be shy to invest more in sport. The returns will be tremendous.

The shortage of sports facilities, especially in the rural areas, is quite shocking. Although Government is doing its fair share to improve the situation, they have only just started scratching the surface. We hope and trust that it will be possible, in next year’s budget, to invest more in sport and recreation. We are happy to see that sport will be one of the beneficiaries of the South African national lottery. [Applause.]

Mr C M MORKEL: Madam Speaker, during the Minister’s budget speech, we mentioned that 0,025% of the total national Budget is not good enough, and we want to suggest that he improves his relationship with the Minister of Finance. I understand that the Minister is himself quite a friendly chap.

With Youth Day approaching, I have to add one thing that we did not mention in the last budget debate. School sport is being left behind as a stepchild. We need the Minister of Education and the Minister of Sport and Recreation to decide which Minister is going to deal with it, because it seems there is a vacuum at the moment. We need clarity on this point. The United Students’ Sports Association of South Africa has complained to the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation that they feel like a stepchild, and one of the Ministers will have to deal with that.

On the issue of investigations into boxing, soccer, cricket, etc, it is not a good situation to be in, but we do understand that the Ministry of Sport and Recreation will have to deal with these things from time to time and will require money for it.

Concerning Nocsa, we need the Minister to be more firm with, in particular, Sam Ramsamy. We feel that he is using personal gripes with the administrators in SA Hockey to punish the men’s hockey team. This is unfair to the men’s hockey team just because he has a problem with the administrators. We want the Minister please to deal with this issue as quickly as possible. It has nothing to do with them not being representative enough or good enough. They are!

About the broadcasting of sports events of national importance, I am sure the Minister has already seen the paper in which we state our position. We believe that we must move away from exclusive broadcasting rights to primary and secondary broadcasting rights, because there will then be universal access.

About the Soccer World Cup bid, our party is still fully behind Safa and the Ministry of Sport and Recreation on this. We are disappointed in Morocco, but we will support this Vote. [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, I am thankful to see that the hon the Minister is in the House. [Interjections.] Sport deserves a more equitable and workable budget from Government. The department must play a strong role in the way in which money is used and allocated to federations, and measures must be implemented against those who do not adhere to the criteria set out in the funding policy.

I wish to commend the Minister on the sterling work he is doing, especially with reference to the manner in which he has handled Fifa and the sensitive way in which he is dealing with Morocco, which has become the second African bidder. I wish him every success as he continues in his negotiations with the Moroccans. I am sure I am speaking for the whole House when I say that we are looking forward with anticipation to a positive result regarding the 2006 Soccer World Cup.

However, everything is not rosy. [Interjections.] The Minister should not get involved in the indemnity issue of the cricketers. He should leave this matter in the capable hands of the commission and the lawyers of the parties involved. His involvement could compromise his neutrality.

The ACDP supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Ms N R BHENGU: Madam Speaker, the Vote for Sport and Recreation is centred on the transformation agenda as outlined in the ANC’s policy. This transformation agenda seeks to address imbalances in sport that are still reflected in some of the sporting codes which are not yet accessible to the previously disadvantaged people of South Africa, especially those in the rural areas.

This Vote aims at addressing the imbalances in sport by making sports facilities accessible to all communities and ensuring that all sporting codes adhere to the principle of representivity and move away from a tradition of lily-white teams. This we seek to do without compromising the merit standards.

The ANC supports the Vote, fully understanding the challenges in sport, which include racism, as we have seen in Upington and Calvinia during our study tour visit to the Northern Cape; corruption, as alleged in the Hansie Cronjé saga; the promotion of indigenous sports, and the accessibility of sports and sports facilities to the disabled people of South Africa.

It is not surprising that the DP does not support this Vote, because they have never been on the study tours to the provinces. Therefore, they would not even relate to the Vote that is needs-based. We went to the Eastern Cape and the DP chose to go to Zimbabwe to engage in political rhetoric and sloganeering, instead of dealing with the real issues affecting South Africans.

We support this Vote. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, before I take the vote, was there a declaration of a party when South Africa wins the bid next week? I was just checking if you had made the declaration of a party for the House when South Africa wins the bid. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I bet you, Madam Chair, that you will try to make sure that we have a party, but we have to do some betting around here. [Laughter.] And I think I can fix it. [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Minister of Sport and Recreation, I think that is a dangerous statement to make. [Laughter.]

Vote No 29 agreed to (Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 30 - State Expenditure - put and agreed to.

Vote No 31 - Statistics South Africa - put and agreed to.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put.   Declarations of vote:

Mr N S BRUCE: Madam Speaker … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order!

Mr N S BRUCE: I want to thank the IFP member from Pretoria for pointing out the guts that the DP has. It is not often that recognition comes in this House and it is not often that recognition comes from that quarter. But I must say, to be candid about it, that during the 23 years that the hon member has been in this House, I do not think that he has shown any guts at all. [Laughter.] But I will say this: He showed a great deal of gut. So much so, in fact, that I thought, when I first arrived here, that he was a member of the governing party. He looks so much like the hon Jannie Momberg, and one never knows which side of the House he is sitting on. [Interjections.] If both these members ate less and thought more, they would know that it is very difficult to see that this party is not firing on all four cylinders. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order!

Mr N S BRUCE: I could read out a long list, but there are some things that they did well, for instance, the European deal. There is the fact that we are keeping on reducing protection in this country, and the fact that we are taking a more enlightened view on international trade. These are all solid achievements. We were very tempted to vote for the Minister on this matter. Certainly they are more solid than counting water taps, which is all the Minister of Education can boast about these days - his outcomes- source reticulation. [Interjections.]

These are quite solid advantages. We came very close to voting for this Minister. However, one cannot possibly vote for a Minister who has deprived the poor, the sick and the suffering of the proceeds of charities that are rightfully theirs. This is really a dreadful thing. He clearly does not have the poor in mind, and the more I point that out, the more indignant he gets about it. But I must say that when I listen to him defending himself he reminds me of that bravado politician Piet Koornhof who was all conscience, kitsch and kugels. So I am afraid we are against the Minister. [Applause.]

Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Speaker, thank you for calling the Minister of Sport and Recreation to order. We in the IFP fully support that party and we fully support the World Cup bid.

With regard to Vote 32 - Trade and Industry - the IFP supports this Vote. Trade and Industry policy is directed at attracting direct foreign investment and encouraging local investors to invest in industry and, particularly, in manufacturing.

The IFP is, however, of the opinion that much more can still be done. In this regard we support the Minister’s concept of industrial development zones. The IFP believes that these development zones could attract substantially more foreign investment if we could cluster them, adjoining them to one or more future free ports. That would mean that industrialists operating in such port areas would be exempt from taxation and duties - very much along Hong Kong lines.

In this regard we are particularly looking at the Richard’s Bay area, the Mpangeni area, the Durban area, as well as the Nqurha port area in the Eastern Cape. All of these areas should actually be favourably considered.

Hon members are reminded that the Government’s economic policy has shifted substantially towards the basic IFP philosophy of a socially responsible free market economy. Despite the hon the Minister turning up his nose at us, I can assure him that as has been the case in the past, the more the Government steals the fundamental principles and economic policy of the IFP, the better it will be for this Government. Therefore, I have no hesitation in giving the Minister, the Deputy Minister and the director- general - the whole group from Trade and Industry - the thumbs-up. The IFP supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Mnr F BEUKMAN: Mevrou die Speaker, politieke partye wat teen hierdie begrotingspos stem, stem teen die belange van Suid-Afrikaanse maatskappye, teen die belange van Suid-Afrikaanse boere en asook spesifiek teen die belange van die Wes-Kaap. Alhoewel ons oor die bestuur se finansieringsprobleme met die kleinsake-finansieringsagentskap van die departement probleme het, is ons van mening dat die departement se begroting met die oog op die herstrukturering van Handel en Nywerheid, globalisering, wêreldwye tariefvermindering en nuwe handelsooreenkomste reg gerig is. Suid-Afrikaanse vervaardigers van motorbande, onderdele, die tekstiel- en volstruisbedryf, die vrugte-inmaakbedryf en landbouprodusente word direk deur die EU-ooreenkoms bevoordeel waaroor die amptenare van hierdie departement onderhandel het.

In ‘n tyd waar wynboere, sagtevrugteprodusente en koöperatiewe kelders in die Wes-Kaap finansieel baie swaar kry, is toegang tot groter markte vir ons mense, veral ook die werkers op ons plase, van oorlewingsbelang. Die departement se bydrae tot die finalisering van die ooreenkoms plaas ‘n verpligting op opposisiepartye wat ernstig is oor Suid-Afrikaanse produkte, en vervaardigers en plaaswerkers se regte om hierdie begrotingspos te steun.

Die feit dat 32 miljoen liter Suid-Afrikaanse wyn en spiritualieë na die EU nie onderwerp word aan tariewe nie, kan vir ons Wes-Kaapse wynprodusente en hul werkers oorlewing beteken sowel as groter toegang tot markte en afsetgebiede. Enige politieke party wat die Wes-Kaap se belange vooropstel, sal hierdie begrotingspos weens hierdie feite steun. Ons gaan nie weens die een of ander probleem oor loterye hierteen stem nie. Ons gaan hierdie begrotingspos steun. [Tussenwerpsels.][Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F BEUKMAN: Madam Speaker, political parties who vote against this Vote are voting against the interests of South African companies, against the interests of South African farmers and also specifically against the interests of the Western Cape. Although we have problems with the management’s financing problems with the small business financing agency of the department, we are of the opinion that the department’s budget is correctly directed with a view to the restructuring of Trade and Industry, globalisation, worldwide tariff reduction and new trade agreements. South African manufacturers of car tyres, parts, the textile and ostrich industries, the fruit canning industry and agricultural producers benefit directly from the EU agreement on which the officials of this department negotiated.

At a time when wine farmers, deciduous fruit producers and co-operative cellars in the Western Cape are struggling a lot financially, access to bigger markets is essential to the survival of our people, particularly also the workers on our farms. The department’s contribution to the finalisation of the agreement places an obligation on opposition parties who are serious about South African products, and producers’ and farm workers’ rights, to support this Vote.

The fact that 32 million litres of South African wine and spirits to the EU are not subjected to tariffs, could mean survival for our Western Cape wine producers and their workers, as well as greater access to markets and outlets. Any political party which places the interests of the Western Cape first, will support this Vote for these reasons. We are not going to vote against it because of some or other problem regarding lotteries. We are going to support this Vote. [Interjections.] [Applause.]] Dr R H DAVIES: Madam Speaker, the Department of Trade and Industry is engaged in an energetic and very far-reaching process of restructuring aimed at significantly improving its capacity to effect transformation in the real economy, which is essential in promoting growth and development in our country.

As part of its oversight function, the portfolio committee has decided to engage with this process, among other things, through quality time interactions on key policy and delivery issues with the department. We had one such engagement in May, and it is a great pity that Mr Nigel Bruce did not find time to engage seriously in the real issues on that particular occasion. [Interjections.]

Yesterday Minister Erwin distinguished between opposition based on real engagement and empty vessels making meaningless gestures, playing to the gallery. I think we saw a particularly pathetic version of the latter in Mr Bruce’s objection just now. Several of us have given advice to the opposition over the past few days, and I cannot resist adding my own voice. [Interjections.] If they want to make an impact, they should choose a few issues and focus on them. This evening the DP has done just the opposite. It has raised vacuous objections to almost everything, and instead of creating an impact, they have just created tedium. I do not think that anybody is paying any attention to them outside this House. They will have no impact whatsoever. The ANC will, of course, be supporting this Vote. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I now put the question. Are there any objections?

HON MEMBERS: No.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, the hon the Minister’s lucky number has not come up and the DP is therefore objecting to this one. Please note our objection.

Vote No 32 agreed to (Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 33 - Transport - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S PILLAY: Madam Speaker, the DP is clear that, among other matters, road safety, especially the law enforcement component, road maintenance, the Arrive Campaign, the underutilisation of nearly 12 000 km of railway lines, and the activities of the Road Accident Fund have not received sufficient resources, nor have they been efficient with the funds allocated to them.

One life lost on the roads owing to a lack of law enforcement is one life too many. Supporting an inadequate budget that is inefficiently used is not in the interests of the country. Accidents have increased by approximately 14% over the past ten years as more and more commuters rely on private transport as the preferred way to commute. Yet, if one looks at the budget presented here by the hon the Minister, it is surprising to note that where one would expect a major increase in allocations towards regulation and safety, one sees an overall decrease of some 17%.

Taxi violence is escalating. There are approximately 8 000 vacant traffic police posts throughout the country. There is no efficient mechanism to ensure the efficient utilisation of the previously allocated funds. On 15 February my hon colleague, the hon Stuart Farrow, offered to share information about certain members of the SAPS from the police stations in Breedgat, Shoshanguve and Puthanong, who are intimately involved in taxi violence. To our knowledge, no investigation is taking place.

The backlog of over R9,5 billion in road maintenance renders this budget inappropriate and inadequate, and will continue to breed inefficiency. Therefore we cannot support this Vote.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I trust that as we leave here, the incident that happened last week will not repeat itself. After I spoke on Wednesday, I was robbed on Thursday. I trust that this will not happen again.

We cannot support this Vote. [Interjections.]

Mr J H SLABBERT: Madam Speaker, since I spoke on the Transport Vote on 11 March, violence has escalated, buses have been burnt, and ordinary, poor, hardworking people and even schoolchildren have to struggle to get to work and school and back home again. Our people were promised a better life for all. Surely they are also entitled to better transport for all. Transport is becoming a fiercely contested terrain.

Mr M J ELLIS: [Inaudible.]

Mr J H SLABBERT: I wish hon Mr Ellis would keep quiet. [Laughter.] This is a huge challenge to law and order and to government in general.

Once again, let me return to another issue of great concern, which I am sure the hon the Minister is also concerned about, and that is that despite our 32 000 km of railway lines, 15% to 20% of freight is being moved by rail, whilst thousands of huge lorries are destroying our roads.

While the IFP will support this Vote, we request that the issues we have raised be addressed seriously and quickly. [Interjections.] I wish the hon the Minister the wisdom and strength he needs to sort out these problems. [Interjections.]

Mnr S SIMMONS: Mevrou die Speaker, die Nuwe NP wil sy besorgdheid uitspreek daaroor dat paaie, veral op die platteland, in ‘n haglike toestand verkeer, en dat die verval van paaie so groot is dat hulle byna heeltemal herbou sal moet word. Dit is ook sorgwekkend dat die agb Minister in die huidige boekjaar nie ‘n enkele sent begroot het vir die instandhouding van ons paaie op die platteland nie.

Die swak instandhouding van paaie het ‘n nadelige effek op landbou, toerisme en kommersiële dienslewering. Daarom sal die onvoldoende fondse wat beskikbaar gestel word vir hierdie diens eenvoudig nie die nodige fisieke toegang tot werkplekke, klinieke, hospitale en skole bied nie, en ook nie help om die lewenstandaard van ons mense te verhoog en om ekonomiese groei te stimuleer nie.

Die Nuwe NP is terdeë bewus daarvan dat die Departement van Vervoer ‘n tekort aan fondse het, en ons doen ‘n beroep op die agb Minister om meer fondse te beding om gemelde tekortkominge in die komende boekjare te dek. Nieteenstaande die gemelde tekortkomings, steun die Nuwe NP die begrotingspos. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Speaker, the New NP wants to express its concern about the fact that roads, in particular in the rural parts, are in a dreadful condition and that their state of disrepair is so great that they will have to be virtually rebuilt. It is also alarming to note that in the current financial year the hon the Minister has not budgeted a single cent for road maintenance in the rural parts.

Poor road maintenance has a detrimental effect on agriculture, tourism and the rendering of commercial services. That is why the insufficient funds that are being made available for this service simply do not grant the necessary physical access to workplaces, clinics, hospitals and schools, and also do not help to improve the standard of living of our people or to stimulate economic growth.

The New NP is fully aware that the Department of Transport is experiencing a shortage of funds, and we appeal to the hon the Minister to negotiate more funds in order to cover the above-mentioned shortfalls in the coming financial year. Despite the said shortfalls, the New NP will support this Vote.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon members, this morning while on our way to Parliament, my colleague and I left our homes at 06:30 with the intention of arriving at Parliament at 07:15. What is usually a 45-minute journey took us more than three hours. We later discovered, when listening to the radio news, that the bus drivers of Golden Arrow had decided to block all the roads leading to Cape Town in protest against the senseless killings of bus drivers which has taken place over the past few months.

We are approving this Vote this evening, because we would like to have safe roads. I am sure that this morning most MPs and staff members lost at least three hours. This state of lawlessness on our roads cannot be allowed to continue in our nation. We are especially concerned when MPs, who have to prepare themselves for an important day like this, and who also have certain privileges in terms of the privileges Act, are being blocked or prevented from coming to their work on time.

We appeal to the Minister of Transport, as well as the Western Cape Provincial Government, to collectively address this crisis in the Western Cape. We support the Arrive Alive campaign. How about promoting an ``Arrive On Time’’ campaign?

Our party supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Speaker, I am glad that the previous speaker referred to the events of this morning, because I am quite disappointed that at least one of the parties here - continuing the strain of oppositional device of objectional behaviour that we have seen - has decided to oppose this Vote. I think that this is not the signal we want to send on this particular Vote out there in the public. We want to convey an impression of unity and determination, as politicians and leaders, that we want to get the public transport system right in South Africa.

This morning’s events, which the hon Green has referred to, are born of frustration, fear and incomprehension by bus drivers that not enough has been done to address their safety concerns. I hope that from the law and order side there will be an understanding of what this particular action was born of. I think it has wide public support, notwithstanding the frustrations that many of us must have felt this morning in trying to get to work.

What these actions underline - and all the events that have been happening around us in the past several months here in this province - is that we have to have a planned and equitable approach to the provision of public transport. Operating licences must be awarded on the basis of the actual social needs out there, on the basis of plans and clear regulation, and they must be aligned with the development of our cities and towns. They must be awarded transparently and by bodies which are representative and have legitimacy - much of which does not exist, not least here in this province.

The Bill that we will be bringing on Monday to the National Assembly, the National Land Transport Transitional Bill, envisages trying to implement all these things. If we pass this budget, it will help us to make progress in this direction. It will even help the coalition government here in the Western Cape to sort out the mess that it got itself in - of course, assuming that the coalition government survives.

We have been listening to the hon Gibson and hon Ellis standing up and saying: ``We are obliged to divide, divide, divide, divide.’’ I am not sure whether they are talking about the voting process here or what they intend doing out there.

As the ANC, we support this Vote. [Time expired.] Vote No 33 agreed to (Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put and agreed to.

Vote No 35 - Welfare - put.

Declarations of vote: Mrs P W CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, I think this is the first time that I have been able to agree with the ANC, and that is on the fact that the Welfare department is in a shambles.

Die DP het groot kommer oor die welsynsbegroting wat deur die Minister aangekondig is. Dit is ‘n absolute skande dat die kindertoelae vir skoolgaande kinders weggeneem is en niks, maar niks, in die plek daarvan ingestel is nie. Ek hoop dat hierdie Huis besef dat daar in hierdie stadium van die bewind van die nuwe Regering geen staatshulp vir gestremde kinders onder die ouderdom van 18 jaar oud bestaan nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Wat sê die Handves van Regte in die Grondwet? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The DP is very concerned about the Welfare budget which has been announced by the Minister. It is an absolute disgrace that the child grant for schoolgoing children has been abolished, and absolutely nothing has been put in its place. I hope that this House realises that at this stage of the tenure of the new Government there is no state aid for handicapped children under the age of 18 years. [Interjections.] What does the Bill of Rights in the Constitution say?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, can we have some order! We need to hear the hon member.

Mev P W CUPIDO: Wat sê die Handves van Regte in die Grondwet? In Hoofstuk 2, artikel 27(1)(c) word bepaal dat elkeen die reg het op staatsondersteuning as hulle nie by magte is om na hulself om te sien nie.

Tans is daar geen voldoende begroting of konstruktiewe debat om verligting en verandering aan te bring in die lewens van straatkinders, verhoorafwagtende kinders, kinders in tronke, kinders met vigs en weeskinders nie. Die land vier op Vrydag, 16 Junie Jeugdag terwyl dit duidelik blyk dat daar geen toekoms vir jongmense in ons land is nie. Wat bied die Regering die derduisende matrikulante elke jaar? Absoluut niks. Daar is baie min of geen werkgeleenthede vir jongmense nie. Die Minister kondig ‘n verhoging van R20 aan vir pensioentrekkers wat ‘n week later deur ‘n aansienlike verhoging in die petrolprys ingesluk word weens die verhoogde taxifooie.

Subsidies vir tehuise vir bejaardes en ander hulpbehoewende inrigtings is ernstig aan die afneem en beperk dienslewering in sulke sentra. Die bewilliging van R83 miljoen vir armoedeverligting is opgeskort omdat die Departement van Welsyn nie oor die vermoë beskik of enigsins die potensiaal toon om die departement suksesvol te bestuur nie. Gevolglik is dit onmoontlik vir die DP om ‘n begroting te steun wat glad nie voorsiening maak vir die welsyn van die armste van die armes nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs P W CUPIDO: What does the Bill of Rights in the Constitution say? In Chapter 2, section 27(1)(c), it is provided that everyone has the right to social security if they are unable to support themselves.

At present there is no adequate budget or constructive debate to bring relief and change in the lives of streetchildren, awaiting-trial children, children in prisons, children with Aids and orphans. On Friday, 16 June, the country will celebrate Youth Day, while it is clear that there is no future for young people in our country. What does the Government offer the many thousands of matriculants every year? Absolutely nothing. There are very few, if any, job opportunities for young people. The Minister announced an increase of R20 for pensioners, which was cancelled out a week later by a considerable increase in the petrol price, which led to increased taxi fares.

Subsidies for old age homes and other institutions for the needy are decreasing dramatically and this is restricting service delivery in such centres. The allocation of R83 million for poverty relief has been suspended because the Department of Welfare does not have the ability or show any potential to manage the department successfully. Consequently it is impossible for the DP to support a budget which does not make any provision at all for the welfare of the poorest of the poor. [Interjections.]]

Ms S C VOS: The IFP voiced its concern regarding the Department of Welfare during the main Budget debate. We take this opportunity to reiterate our commitment to ensuring that, in future, the oversight obligation of the portfolio committee is strictly observed in order to elicit adequate responses from the department, as we have a collective duty to ensure that South Africa has a welfare sector committed and sensitive to the very real needs of the most marginalised sector of the South African population. We have supported the Welfare budget despite our genuine concerns, as we are confident that this goal can be achieved. We remain committed to making South Africa a better place for all.

We support this Vote. [Applause.]

Mev M E OLCKERS: Mevrou die Speaker, die nuwe NP kan nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie, omdat daar in die vorige boekjaar 99%, bykans R203 miljoen van die bewilliging vir armoedeverligting nie bestee is nie. Die afgelope drie jaar is altesaam R516 miljoen van die departement se geld nie bestee nie, en dit alles dui op swak administrasie en totale onbekwaamheid van die vorige Minister en die departement.

Volgens getuienis voor die portefeuljekomitee is daar erken dat senior amptenare wat in 1996 en 1997 in die departement aangestel is, ‘n skok gekry het toe hulle hoor dat deel van hul verantwoordelikhede finansiële bestuur sou insluit. Daar was al ses direkteurs-generaal oor die afgelope ses jaar in daardie departement. Dit is duidelik dat van die amptenare weinig benul het van wat in die departement aangaan. As sowat 78% van die totale begroting nie benut is nie, is dit absurd om meer geld vir die departement te gee alvorens daar beter bestuur in daardie departement gevestig word. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mrs M E OLCKERS: Madam Speaker, the New NP cannot support this Vote, because in the previous financial year 99%, almost R203 million, of the allocation for poverty alleviation was not spent. In the past three years altogether R516 million of the department’s money was not spent, which all points to poor administration and total incompetence on the part of the previous Minister and the department.

According to evidence before the portfolio committee it has been admitted that senior officials who were appointed in the department during 1996 and 1997 were shocked to learn that their responsibilities would include financial management. Over the past six years there have been six directors- general in that department. Clearly some of the officials have very little idea of what is going on in the department. If about 78% of the budget has not been utilised, it would be absurd to give more money to the department before better management has been established there. [Interjections.]] Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, Mr Minister, bad management, corruption and the misappropriation of funds have riddled this department for a very long time. Over the past six years they have changed five directors- general. If I may add, I do support the present director-general, and I hope that she will stick to this department and, at least, try to make it float.

I would just like to raise some of my concerns. The R83 million which the Minister of Finance has withdrawn from the department has sent out loud signals of a vote of no confidence in this department.

The state maintenance grant to children has been withdrawn and not replaced with an alternative. The reintroduction of the child grant of R100, which is paid to children up to the age of seven, does not alleviate hardship. It has actually caused severe hardship in some homes.

The old age pension is badly administered. This has subjected our aged - especially those in the rural areas, where there is a lack of co- ordination, sympathy and compassion - to harsh conditions, no refreshments, unsuitable venues for drawing pensions, long queues and, at times, very bad weather conditions.

To add insult to injury, the Constitution guarantees that everyone has inherent dignity, and the right to have their dignity respected and protected. The inhumane treatment that our elderly are subjected to in institutions and in their family homes, flies in the face of these constitutional rights. The ACDP will do everything in its power to fight these abuse of our elderly citizens.

I regret that we as the ACDP do not support this Vote.

Mr E SALOOJEE: Madam Speaker, in the short time that I have I think I should just mention one thing. We have had to live with Mrs Cupido for the past six years in the Portfolio Committee on Welfare and Population Development. In all those years, she has not learnt a thing, very true. [Interjections.] When she addresses herself to any problems, it is in a hopelessly superficial way. Her indifference to this is shown by her lack of even proper attendance.

The reason I mention this is because the DP is continually harping on the plight of the poor in our country. [Interjections.] None of them have ever come to terms with what the ANC has actually done. Research has also shown that the South African social security system, and more especially the social pensions system, is possibly one of the best antipoverty programmes that one can find in any place. But none of the DP members have that information; they do not know what the numbers are. They send poor little Mrs Cupido to confront us here. As a result, she really has nothing to say.

Many of the other parties in the opposition have, at least, gone a long way to signal that we have a common problem here, and that we have to impact on the lives of the poor, and they are doing everything to help. They know that there are good policies in place. They know that the state has released substantial funds for a lot of these programmes, and they try to help. But this lot here have no concern or commitment to the poor and the disadvantaged of our country. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Division demanded.

Mr J H MOMBERG: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The parties came together on four occasions to decide on divisions and objections, but the ACDP never indicated to us that they were going to call for a division. I think this is against the spirit of our negotiations.

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, let me address you on this matter. I would agree that the Whips did sit down and negotiate the whole matter. However, you must also understand that we did not consult with our caucus at the time when we finally negotiated with the Whips. [Interjections.]

The Rules of Parliament, however, allow us to call for a division, if we so wish. So we have played along very consistently until the very last minute. I think that the Rules allow us to call for a division, if we so wish. Mr J H MOMBERG: Madam Speaker, please give me a chance!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Hold on, hon Momberg. I think it is clear that the Whips discussed the issue of how they were going to conduct the deliberations of this evening, including who was going to object to what. That is why I have lists here. It is clear that the ACDP has deviated from that. I think that the hon Momberg is correct to object to the fact that the ACDP has deviated from the arrangement that was agreed upon by all the parties.

However, we have to allow the party to ask for a division. But I think it is clear that the Whips should discuss the matter of how we are going to work in future, because it breaks the faith between the parties if, after having negotiated and agreed on issues, there is a deviation from that agreement. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon Green, I do not want us to spend a whole hour discussing this problem. [Interjections.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, on a further point of order: If the hon Jannie Momberg can recall, we also said that when we reached 10 o’clock, we would be flexible. That is what we agreed to. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please let us hear him out!

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, I appeal for that flexibility.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I now would like to establish whether we do have four members who support the request for a division? [Interjections.] Are there four ACDP members in the House? [Interjections.]

Mr J H MOMBERG: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The Rules are clear that the ACDP has a right to call for a division. I am not going to object to that. I just want to say in front of the whole House that the ACDP has reneged on all our agreements, and they must not come to us in future and cry, because they will get nothing from us. [Interjections.]

The House divided:

AYES - 248: Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan- Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M M S; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Serote, M W; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, N; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 47: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Ellis, M J; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Rabie, P J; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Waters, M.

Vote 35 accordingly agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL
                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker and hon members, we have rights. One of the rights we have is to test the tolerance of this House. My speech is fairly long, so I move. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, I have it on good authority that at supper time there were lots of bids going on how long this debate was going to take. I would like to see where it stands at the moment. But this Budget has been debated extensively, both in the First Reading debate and in an extensive debate on each Vote. Suffice it for me to say, on behalf of the ANC, that I rise to support this Bill for reasons that have been put far more eloquently by my colleagues in this House than I could put them. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Chair, I regret to advise the House that their luck has run out! May I start by thanking the UCDP and the FA for giving us their time, so that we can cover this important debate a little more thoroughly. [Interjections.]

This is the last debate on the Appropriation Bill, which was tabled on 23 February this year. Since then most of our economic indicators have taken a turn for the worse. Economic growth has been slower than anticipated, inflation has increased, business confidence has decreased sharply and the value of the rand has declined substantially. Time will tell whether these adverse developments are a temporary aberration or not. However, we should not allow our attention to be diverted from the desperate plight of the unemployed and poor people of our country.

The ANC Government should hang its head in shame when it comes to the neglect of the poor in our society. [Interjections.] Six years after the ANC came to power, there are more poor people and they are worse off than they were in 1994. [Interjections.] Six years after the ANC came to power, we discover that nearly half a billion rands - nearly R500 million - which was specifically budgeted for poverty relief last year, has not been spent. Nearly half a billion rands for poverty relief was unspent in just one year. This is not just a disaster in one department: at least six departments are guilty of perpetrating this injustice. It is an absolute disgrace, yet the Ministers responsible remain comfortably ensconced and protected from the consequences of their ineptitude.

In the Budget debate, the DP emphasised the importance of South Africa achieving a 6% growth rate, to enable us to reduce unemployment and poverty. As usual, the Minister - who always has the last word in these debates - avoided addressing the serious issues raised and chose to ignore, twist or scoff, as the mood took him. He did anything but answer the arguments presented. He declared, and I quote:

… the DP’s criticism of our Budget proposal amounts to no more than a clutter of soft-headed populist appeals to the simple-minded. This is how they insult the electorate with their unbelievable, unashamed and unaffordable populism.

[Interjections.] What were these soft-headed, populist appeals of the DP? The first appeal was: Get our growth rates up to 6%, to reduce unemployment and poverty. Just three days after that budget debate, the IMF produced a report on South Africa, and what did the IMF say? I quote:

The urgent challenge facing the authorities is to raise South Africa’s growth potential so as to facilitate job creation and improve living standards.

I wish to ask the Minister if that is soft-headed populism. [Interjections.]

The second appeal by the DP was: Make South Africa attractive for both domestic and foreign investors. What did the IMF say? It said:

The key to generating high and sustainable output and employment growth lies in the pursuit of policies aimed at, amongst other things, accelerating structural reforms that would help increase domestic investment and attract foreign investment.

Is that more soft-headed populism? [Interjections.]

The DP’s third appeal was: We need rapid privatisation. The IMF noted how slowly the privatisation process was taking place and stressed the importance of accelerating it. Was that unbelievable and unaffordable? [Interjections.]

The DP’s fourth appeal was: We need a deliberate campaign to increase the supply of skilled people. What did the IMF say? It said: ``South Africa must increase the skills of the labour force.’’

The DP’s fifth appeal was for greater labour market flexibility. [Interjections.]

Dr R H DAVIES: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I am wondering whether the DP is the local branch of the IMF. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! That is out of order.

Mr K M ANDREW: No, Mr Davies, and we are not the local branch of a communist party either. [Interjections.]

We appeal for greater labour market flexibility. What did the IMF say? It pointed to the need for faster labour market reform and underscored the need for more fundamental changes to certain aspects of the labour market policy to encourage job creation for the unskilled. What does the Minister want us to believe? That the IMF executive board are soft-headed populists? And who is the chair of the board of governors of the IMF and the World Bank? A soft-headed populist, propagating, unbelievable, unashamed and unaffordable populism, or our very own Minister of Finance himself? [Interjections.]

As part of short-term poverty alleviation, the DP proposed a basic subsistence grant. Obviously, this touched a raw nerve in the ANC and, naturally, the Minister tried to shoot the whole idea down, yet within weeks, President Mbeki appointed two committees to look into South Africa’s social welfare system, including the concept of a basic income grant. So much for the Minister’s scorn and derision.

The simple fact is that Government lacks the courage and imagination to take South Africa away from a future of increasing unemployment, poverty and crime. Government is planning to implement policies which Government itself knows will result in rising unemployment and poverty. The DP will not support such an approach. The DP will not support this Bill. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Dr G G WOODS: Madam Speaker, it is not because I am afraid of being mugged outside at midnight that I am going to invite members to consult the Hansard of, I think, 8 June, or the First Reading of this debate, should members be interested in the IFP’s views on the Budget and why we supported it. [Applause.]

Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the New NP is an opposition party with a social conscience. The Budget of 2000-2001 is particularly noteworthy, because it is an attempt to alleviate poverty and address the needs of the marginalised sectors of our society. As a constructive opposition party we will give credit to the Government and to the Minister of Finance where it is due. However, we retain the right to criticise legislation which we feel is not in the interests of the public.

The New NP supports the Appropriation Bill and we will vote for it. Economics is not an exact science. [Applause.] It refers to human beings, their needs, their aspirations, their material and spiritual wellbeing. The Government’s serious attempt to reduce the Budget deficit of 2,6% of GDP in 2000-2001 is commendable. The hon the Minister said in his Budget Speech that a healthy fiscal policy must be matched by sound monetary measures. This is an accepted international norm at present.

The vote against the Department of Trade and Industry by the DP is a sad one. I would like the DP to explain this to the thousands of poor people in the Western Cape who depend on the canning industry, and on the wine exports and so forth. Maybe their vote is not important, but to the constituents who I represent, this is a serious thing, and I think the DP will have to pay much serious attention to that.

The New NP supports the measures taken to curb inflation. The target band of 3% to 6% by 2002 is important. Rising inflation invariably leads to higher interest rates, a phenomenon which invariably imposes hardship on the materially deprived and a severe financial burden on the small and medium-sized business sector. The reduction in personal and corporate tax is acknowledged. We welcome the relief for the lower, middle and higher income tax brackets.

The question remains whether our tax relief measures are adequate. South Africa competes within a global economic environment. In order to retain a competitive edge, our tax measures must be fair, and attract foreign investors to invest in our country. Direct foreign investment is a prerequisite for sustained economic growth.

The hon the Minister predicted an average growth of 3,4% over the next three years in his Budget Speech. Our present population growth is roughly 2% per year. Our official unemployment rate is something like 37,5%. The present rates of crime, and of emigration of skilled South Africans are, however, the result of our present unacceptable rate of unemployment. We should not be complacent. Our present economic growth rate will have to be increased, and we call upon all role-players to do something in this regard.

A number of other factors have had a negative effect on our economy. The weakening of the rand in relation to the dollar since April has forced us to pay considerably more for imported crude oil, which has adversely affected our inflation rate. I would like to conclude.

As dit oor die welsyn van die ekonomie van ‘n land gaan, behoort daar nie goedkoop politieke stellings gemaak te word wat wanpersepsies na buite kan skep nie. Die privatisering van die parastatale instellings is van sleutelbelang en dit moet versnel word. Die Nuwe NP versoek egter die agb Minister dat ons die herstrukturering van ons staatsbates met takt en oorleg hanteer, sodat ons tog nie sekere sektore van die samelewing bevoordeel en andere benadeel nie. Hierdie is ‘n sleutelvereiste. Ons staatskuld moet gedelg word en dit kan en moet aanleiding gee tot volhoubare ekonomiese groei.

In hul voorlegging aan die Portefeuljekomitee oor Finansies het die Buro van Inkomste getoon dat daar ‘n lae belastingmoraliteit bestaan. Dit is ook ‘n verskynsel wat kommer wek, en weer eens versoek die Nuwe NP dat ons hierdie baie betreurenswaardige verskynsel deeglik moet ondersoek. Dit is ‘n verskynsel wat hierdie land nie kan bekostig nie en wat ons skade kan berokken. Ek wil afsluit en sê dat hierdie begroting van sleutelbelang is. Dit lewer ‘n positiewe bydrae tot die verligting van armoede en my party steun dit. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[When the welfare of a country’s economy is at issue, cheap political statements should not be made which can create false perceptions in the outside world. The privatisation of parastatal institutions is of key importance and should be speeded up. However, the New NP requests the hon the Minister to handle the restructuring of our state assets with tact and consultation, so that we do not favour certain sectors of society and prejudice others. This is a key requirement. Our state debt must be discharged and this can and must give rise to sustainable economic growth.

In their submission to the Portfolio Committee on Finance the Bureau of Revenue indicated that a low tax morality exists. This is also a phenomenon which causes concern, and the New NP once again requests that very deplorable phenomenon be thoroughly investigated. It is a phenomenon which this country cannot afford and which can damage us. I want to conclude by saying that this appropriation is of key importance. It makes a positive contribution to poverty relief and my party supports it.]

Mr C T FROLICK: Madam Speaker, the Appropriation Bill is not only a policy statement which gives effect to Government policy, but it also indicates the priority areas for spending the money allocated in this Budget. The process is taken further in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework in which estimates and policy priorities are reflected for the next three years on a rolling basis.

The UDM wants to give credit to the Minister of Finance, the director- general and officials from the department who have championed this transparent process. Few people will disagree that the economic fundamentals are in place, especially with reference to our fiscal and monetary policies. The budget deficit is even lower than was anticipated in the Budget Speech of the Minister, made less than three months ago. Good progress has also been made to bring inflation down to acceptable levels. The UDM believes that the greatest challenges for South Africa in the economic environment currently are to achieve sustainable economic growth and to create jobs for our people.

Lastly, I want to say a word on the current budget process in Parliament. We need to review the role of Parliament and its committees in this process to achieve a more direct impact on the budget, including its capacity, the budget timeframe and the oversight and monitoring role. We appeal to the Minister to investigate, in consultation with Parliament, this possibility. The UDM supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Prof B TUROK: Madam Speaker, it is quite extraordinary how people can see a glass as being half full or how they can see it as being half empty. It is quite amazing how people can interpret data in different ways. The hon Andrew is a member of the finance committee like myself. What I heard in the finance committee where a paper was delivered by the director-general on the supplementary estimates on poverty relief, infrastructure spending and job summits, was that the total spending for those heads was exactly the figure that Mr Andrew quoted. So, he sees a lack of spending, I see spending.

Therefore, I ask the House to study the data, look at the books, see the figures and see what has really happened. The truth of the matter is that the finance committee, of which the hon Andrew is a member, was told that R448 million had been spent on issues such as poverty relief, etc. So, let us be careful in the judgments we make about these figures. We were extremely fortunate to have a presentation which gave us a lot of detail about the new situation in which the Government finds itself. We were, for example, told that the fiscal objectives of the Government have now shifted and changed because of the improved budget deficit situation and because the squeeze on spending is not as great as it was before.

Therefore there is no battle between spending on poverty relief and the budget deficit problem that we inherited. Now we can concentrate on the question of spending on poverty relief and so on. The real challenge for us is to ensure that the money that Parliament approves is actually spent, and that is a function that we all share.

I would just like briefly, because this is no time to make a speech, to make an appeal that all the portfolio committees should do as we were asked to do, and that is to monitor the poverty relief spending and the allocations that were made to us. Members of Parliament in their constituencies should monitor where the spending takes place, and even where the spending does not take place, because, let us be honest, there are difficulties and logjams in various areas. These logjams have been well analysed and it is up to us, as members of Parliament, together with civil society and the NGOs, to do as the President asked us to do at the beginning of the debate the other day.

He asked us to ensure that we have a strong developmental state that will bring the people into the process of Government and will make ample room for civil society to participate in spending. I would like to make an appeal, not in the terms that come from the DP, but on the positive claims that come from our Minister, our director-general, our Ministry of Finance and other departments, because we are clearly in a much better position now than we were a year or even two years ago. Therefore, let us proceed with the developmental state and with mobilising poverty relief for our people. The need is great and let us not listen to the doomsayers from the DP. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and members, the day has been long and we are all tired. We have been given sufficient time to make adequate inputs into the whole Budget and all the Votes, many of which we have supported, and, of course, three of which we could not support.

We do not need to cover the same points which we have raised during the First Reading of this Appropriation Bill. We supported the Budget during the First Reading, we are satisfied with the account given by the Minister, and we will have ample opportunity to monitor the spending by this Government. With these words we, therefore, support the Second Reading. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, I want to agree with the hon Turok that this is not the time to make a speech. It is 10h25.

The Appropriation Bill is structured in a transparent, rolling budget format which supports effective planning to meet policy priorities of national and subnational Government. One cannot deny that efforts have been made to implement the priorities within the country’s financial resources. The economy is dynamic, therefore, the Budget policy framework is also dynamic. However, the MF is confident that, from year to year, the creative Budget process will be implemented to circumvent difficulties that affect the economy. The MF supports this Bill. I have cut my speech short. [Applause.]

Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Speaker, hon members and Minister of Finance, regrettably, I am not going to cut my speech short, I am afraid to say.

During the hon Barbara Hogan’s speech in the debate on the Finance Vote, extensive reference was made to the role of our Ministry of Finance in acting as a bridgehead between the developing and the developed world, the role we play in reforming global financial institutions, and the progressive governance debate. Yesterday, in the President’s debate, we again heard of the efforts of South Africa.

But let us look a little more closely at the old and the new Washington consensus. The old Washington consensus emphasised the following standard elements; fiscal discipline, unified and competitive exchange rates, deregulation, financial liberalisation, trade liberalisation, privatisation, and, essentially, price and market reform, together with macro stability. The new Washington consensus calls for additional elements

• liberalisation of labour markets, enhanced financial supervision and credential regulation, orderly opening up of the capital accounts, transparent governance, and social safety nets.

But as Dani Rodrik, professor of international political economy at Harvard’s John F Kennedy School of Government, points out, the new Washington consensus has by no means displaced the key terms of the old Washington consensus. In his book The New Global Economy and Developing Countries, Rodrik points out that the new Washington consensus has not dropped any of the elements of the old consensus. What the new consensus is doing instead is adding other things, not replacing the old Washington consensus en masse with a coherent new Washington consensus.

As we engage many of these policy questions around privatisation, labour market flexibility, further trade liberalisation that we have voted on today …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! On what point are you rising, hon member?

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I am sitting three metres from the speaker …

Ms N E HANGANA: And so what? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! Proceed, hon member.

Mr K M ANDREW: … and I would ask you to keep sufficient order or quietness in the House. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I do so with great respect, and I also believe that it is a form of gender discrimination because if people do not … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon member, what is your point of order? Is it about the noise level?

Mr K M ANDREW: Do you want me to shout at you, Madam Speaker? I am trying to … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! No, no! Is your point of order about the noise level?

Mr K M ANDREW: Yes, please. And I think it must not be a requirement of members of Parliament that they must be capable of delivering their speeches by shouting in order to be heard in a debating chamber. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Please let the hon member finish her speech, and let us hear her. [Interjections.] Hon members, please let us listen to this hon member’s speech. Proceed, hon Taljaard.

Ms R TALJAARD: As we engage many of these policy questions around privatisation, labour market flexibility and further trade liberalisation we have voted on today, we must bear this ongoing debate between the old and the new Washington consensus and the cohabitation of the two in mind. We must bear this in mind when we engage these policy issues at home and abroad. We must particularly bear this in mind when we engage these policy issues abroad on behalf of other developing countries.

The other matter that I wish to discuss is inflation targeting. In the Minister’s Budget Speech he said the following (Hansard 2000, col 931):

Inflation targeting increases the transparency and accountability of monetary policy. It provides stability in the value of money which, in turn, enhances growth prospects.

The DP supported the adoption of inflation targeting as a key tool of monetary policy. We supported it because it injects the key principles of certainty, transparency, accountability, and, above all, policy credibility.

I need not rehash the spats between the Minister and the Governor of the Reserve Bank, in both March and May this year. Suffice it to say that in May, in particularly, the Minister increased the uncertainty in a question session at the Bureau for Economic Research … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Please finish up, hon member.

Ms R TALJAARD: The Minister indicated that we would not make unnecessary sacrifices to achieve our objective, that we would not make sacrifices just to reach something that a model has told us is the only correct answer.

However, the DP calls on the Minister to prioritise the key principles of certainty and policy credibility, instead of escape clauses. This does not mean that we deny the presence or the impact of external economic shocks on our target. We must take the short-term pain for the long-term gain of credible, transparent, monetary policy-making. We must not budge from our target.

Credibility once lost is credibility not regained. This is particularly true, given that developing countries’ experimentation with inflation targeting is both limited and varied, and it is early days in our experiment. We are an emerging market that has to continue to build and expand its credibility, and we can, quite literally, not afford to miss our target. [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, I prepared a nice two minute speech on this Bill. But when I said during my speech on the previous order of the day, that I would not speak again, I got a standing ovation from Mr Manuel, and since I do not want to disappoint such a good man, I rest my case by stating that although there are many positive things in this budget, in view of what I have already said in this House, we cannot support it. [Interjections.]

Mr B NAIR: Madam Speaker, like the Minister, I have at least half an hour’s speech. But due to the lateness of the hour, I have decided to forego it until another day. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, I just do not know whom the hon Aucamp is talking about when he says we''. [Laughter.] Is that the royal we’’? I would like to repeat, for the benefit of the hon Andrew, that, if he does not accept now that it is soft-headed populism, then he will on Monday when we debate the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill, because he will oppose every change to bring our tax policy in line with the rest of the world. He cannot have his cake and eat it. He must wake up and smell the coffee. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 240: Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Dithebe, S L; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Grové, S P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lockey, D; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, M J; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Masutha, M T; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A H; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, B M; Nzimande, L P M; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Rajoo, K; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Schneemann, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Serote, M W; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vilakazi, B H; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 31: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Viljoen, C L; Waters, M.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 22:35. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

   (1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 14 June 2000 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a money Bill:

        (i)     Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 38 - 2000] (National
             Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Finance -
             National Assembly).
   

National Assembly:

The Speaker:

1. The following changes have been made to the membership of Committees, viz:

 Communications:

 Appointed: Maziya, A M (Alt).
 Discharged: Mohai, S J.

 Correctional Services:

 Appointed: Maziya, A M.
 Discharged: Ntuli, S B.

 Housing:

 Appointed: Douglas, B M; Slabbert, J H (Alt).

 Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women:

 Appointed: Mbuyazi, L R; Ngubane, H (Alt).
 Discharged: Vos, S C.


 Public Enterprises:

 Appointed: Ntshangase, I B (Alt); Martins, B A D (Alt).

 Public Service and Administration:

 Appointed: Zulu, N E.

 Public Works:

 Appointed: Middleton, N S (Alt).
 Discharged: Slabbert, J H.

 Sport and Recreation:

 Appointed: Moonsamy, K (Alt).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance: Explanatory Memorandum on the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill, 2000 [WP 1- 2000].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Health on the SADC Health Protocol, dated 14 June 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Health, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol on Health in the Southern African Development Community, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs on the Meat Safety Bill [B 29 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 7 June 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs, having considered the subject of the Meat Safety Bill [B 29 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 29A - 2000].

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on the Local Government: Municipal Electoral Bill [B 35 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 12 June 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, having considered the subject of the Local Government: Municipal Electoral Bill [B 35 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 35A - 2000].