FRIDAY, 22 JUNE 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 09:08.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000. SITUATION IN NONGOMA, KWAZULU-NATAL

                             (Statement)

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, on Tuesday afternoon reports were received about the escalation of violence and lawlessness at Nongoma. The reports indicated that the combined units of the SA Police Service and the SA National Defence Force had been attacked. They further indicated that in another area in the province a similar attack had resulted in the death of one SANDF member. These reports gave an indication that the situation was getting out of hand.

Based on these reports Ministers dealing with justice and crime prevention, Ministers Tshwete, Maduna, Skosana, Nhlanhla and Lekota, had to become involved as a matter of urgency to help address the problems. Upon arrival at Nongoma these Ministers received reports from the police about the situation. They were informed that there were three factors causing violence at Nongoma and that these were faction fighting, political intolerance and taxi violence around the Nongoma area.

There is ongoing faction fighting between the Dladla and Zondo clans. According to police reports the conflict is centred mainly on a land dispute which has been going on for a long time. This dispute has resulted in the deaths of a number of people. A new wave of violence erupted after a letter came from Johannesburg, reporting the death of a member of one of the clans, who was killed, according to the reports, on 18 April 2000.

It is estimated by the police that up to 200 members of each clan have retreated into the bush and are armed. Some members have taken refuge at the Okhukho police station. They report that these two clans are under Inkosi S Zulu, whose attempts to mediate have not been successful. In one such mediation attempt, an agreement was reached by both clans. However one clan was ambushed after leaving that very meeting and violence ensued again.

The police further reported that on 20 June 2000 they attempted to apprehend two armed men, who opened fire on them and ran away into the bush. The police followed them and discovered an armed group of people who ran away upon catching sight of the police. The police estimate the number of people they found at 45. The police succeeded in arresting seven of them and seized a number of weapons, including AK-47s. Security personnel who undertook this operation form part of the combined force of the SAPS and SANDF, which numbers 300, including 25 detectives from outside the area who have been deployed in the area as a result of the current violence.

The police also reported that political intolerance in the area was one of the factors that had resulted in a number of problems in the area. They reported that any attempt to establish an ANC branch in the area is always resented. The area is regarded as an exclusively IFP area. The police report that they are often accused by both sides of political bias and this has adversely affected their policing capacity. These allegations have put a lot of pressure on the police, further eroding an already weakened command structure in the Nongoma area.

Because of this situation the provincial commissioner, together with the national headquarters of the police, have evaluated police capacity at Nongoma and have come to the conclusion that the police station needs to be restructured and that this restructuring should take priority in the enhancement of the capacity of the police and policing in the area.

They also reported that taxi violence has been going on for a long time at Nongoma and has resulted in many people being killed. Police are aware that even the mayor of Nongoma is one of the people who has been murdered as part of this raging violence in the area. The Minister has also established that the member of the SANDF who was killed in an ambush had been attacked in a different area, at Bambayi in Inanda, during a joint operation of the SAPS and the SANDF. Government is concerned that there have been too many killings in the Nongoma area and the situation seems to be worsening. Government regards Nongoma as a flashpoint and is of the view that the rule of law is being seriously eroded there. The Government therefore believes that extraordinary measures must be taken to stop the escalating violence. Efforts should be made to assist the Inkosi who is trying to mediate between the two fighting clans.

The taxi violence must be stopped. The two political organisations that are, in fact, working together in the province, the IFP and the ANC, must address the situation at Nongoma. It is, however, pleasing to report that the leadership of the ANC and the IFP met yesterday and agreed to reactivate structures put in place to deal with violence in the province. These structures include, among others, the executive committee that oversees other substructures; the facilitation committee which deals with flashpoints; the committee that deals with matters relating to traditional leaders; and the committee that deals with the code of conduct.

They have further agreed that in their further discussions they are going to work out ways and means of taking action against any of the members, from both organisations, who might be found to be involved in such activities. The leadership has agreed to address the Nongoma violence with more vigour and with the aim to bring about peace and stability in the area.

We will continue to monitor developments closely and ensure that measures to address the violence are implemented. Given the volatility of the situation in Nongoma, we thought it important for the House to have this briefing before it rose today. [Applause.]

Mr J SELFE: Madam Speaker, we thank the hon the Deputy President for informing this House on the events that have taken place. It is entirely appropriate that he should have made this announcement in this House because it allows us, as decision-makers in Parliament, to reflect on what is going on in our country and to take appropriate action. It is also appropriate that we thank the Ministers who were involved, for their intervention in the situation on the ground.

The events in Nongoma over the past days and weeks are the latest in a tragic tale of violence and bloodshed that has affected the people of the province of KwaZulu-Natal for many years. Literally thousands of people - over 4 600 - have been killed. Many more thousands have been injured, have had their houses burnt down and have lost their possessions in the process. Thousands more have been forced to flee their homes and seek shelter elsewhere. To these, the unfortunate people caught in the middle, we extend our deepest sympathy. These people look to us here in Parliament to provide leadership, solutions and security, and I am not always sure that we give it.

Violence in South Africa, and in KwaZulu-Natal in particular, is a very complex issue. In the case of Nongoma itself there is, as we heard, apparently a mixture of faction fighting, economic competition and political violence. It is difficult to know what the actual cause is of each isolated incident, but what is certain is that each incident contributes to raising the temperature and increasing the misery. Each incident makes finding a solution more elusive. Each incident adds to the legacy of bitterness. Each incident leaves widows or orphans and we are very pleased that the Government is as concerned as we are about it.

But we must find a solution, and the first order of business must be to provide real security. Without security there can be no political solution, and we say to the Government: Do what it takes. By this, we do not mean apartheid style suppression, but we do mean that there must be a strong enough presence of police and defence force units to allow people to live their lives and go about their business without fear of death or violence.

Secondly, we must track down, arrest and prosecute those responsible for the violence and deaths, whoever they may be. Unless there is visible and effective justice, people will simply take the law into their own hands. And in this respect it is worrying that there is only a 34% clearance rate

• that is arrest of people suspected of murder with firearms. A solution in this respect requires resourcing of the justice system. There is a police station in KwaZulu-Natal in respect of which not a single detective has received training in ballistics or forensics and from which 355 firearms have been stolen or lost. We simply cannot carry on like this.

Thirdly, we must look anew at tracking down and confiscating illegal weapons. I am told that there are enough illegal weapons in KwaZulu-Natal alone to start a moderate war. A total of 4 111 illegal weapons were recovered between 1 April and 31 December last year, and that constitutes a mere drop in the ocean. We all know that the sort of operations needed to seize weapons are costly and personnel-intensive, but whatever the cost it is cheaper than ending a war.

Fourthly, we must ensure that the various elements of the security forces are properly integrated and co-ordinated. The police must work with the Scorpions, both must work with the SA National Defence Force, all must get accurate intelligence from the National Intelligence Agency. The question needs to be asked in the light of what has occurred today: Are we getting the right or any intelligence from the National Intelligence Agency about what is actually going on on the ground?

But all these measures, important in their own right, are useless unless there is a political solution to the violence. A political solution must be based on tolerance of opposing views and acceptance of democratic outcomes. We are very pleased that a political structure has now been established to deal with some of the issues that have been raised, and we wish this political structure and the people that are involved in it all the strength and all the wisdom to seek a lasting and durable solution. [Applause.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Somlomo, mhlonishwa iphini lika Mongameli, bafowethu nodadewethu [Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, ladies and gentlemen], I ask myself and I am sure my colleagues are asking themselves and the nation is asking us a simple question: Why are we here? Parliament was due to rise yesterday and we were scheduled to disperse into our constituencies. We are now here for a matter which is, in my view, of marginal importance and which has been blown up out of proportion and out of context.

An HON MEMBER: Bazokubulala abantu. [People will kill you.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Ngazalwa kwaNongoma futhi ngihlala khona. I was born in Nongoma and I am still living there.]

Hon members had better listen to what I am going to say. The facts of the matter are that this is a small faction fight, which has gone on for decades, since long before the IFP was ever established. Those participating in this fight have now taken to the bushes in the mountainous territory and often come out when their women bring them food and supplies and right now there is a specialised unit of the Defence Force which has been assigned to deal with this specific problem. This specialised unit followed the women - I am now referring to the specific incident - and ambushed some of the fighters. An armed skirmish broke out in which two people were injured. They stand a good chance of recovering.

In my view, this incident is now being used and actually blown out of proportion. Even those people who participated in that skirmish were not aware that they were actually shooting at the police or soldiers, because it occurred in the bush. [Interjections.] The incident at Matheni has no political connotation whatsoever, nor does it point to any involvement on the part of the leadership of any political party.

EMatheni kade lwaqala udlame. Lwaqala ngo-1973. Kuthangi bengikhuluma nenkosi yakhona umntwana uSibusiso. Sihlele umhlangano. Sizoya khona ngeSonto ukuyonqanda loluya dlame olwenzeka laphaya. Okwamanje, induma uZondo nabantu bayo … (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Faction fighting in Matheni started long time ago. It started in 1973. The day before yesterday I was talking to the inkosi of the area, Prince Sibusiso. We had a meeting. We will go to Matheni on Sunday in an attempt to stop this faction fighting. At the moment the headman of the area, Mr Zondo and his people …]

… have taken refuge at Okhukho police station in the Mahlabatini district. They are actually fleeing from police brutality. Some of iNduna Zondo’s ribs were broken and …

… sekunedokodo elivulwe yinduna uZondo. [… Mr Zondo, the headman of the area, has opened a docket on this matter.]

The other faction, which is led by iNduna Dladla, is in the mountains right now, also fleeing from police brutality. I think that that is the issue which we should be addressing here.

Udaba lwesibili lumayelana nokuthi kuthiwa kunodlame lwabamatekisi KwaNongoma. Uma ngisuke ngingekho lapha eNdlini ngisuke ngiKwaNongoma. [Another issue concerns the assumption that there is taxi violence in Nongoma. If I am not in this house it means I am in Nongoma.]

Therefore I know exactly what is happening in Nongoma on a daily basis. [Interjections.] Secondly …

… yebo, udlame lwabamatekisi olwathatha isikhathi eside lwaba khona KwaNongoma. … yes, at some stage there was ongoing taxi violence in Nongoma.] together with the local amakhosi, got involved in resolving that, and it was indeed finally resolved as long ago as 1997. In fact, two months ago, I had a meeting with the local taxi association, to actually try to arrange …

… umcimbi wokubonga ukuthi sikwazile ukunqoba udlame, abantu babuyisana ematekisini. [… a party to celebrate that we have succeeded in stopping the violence and we have also brought about reconciliation among taxi people.]

So there is no taxi violence going on in Nongoma. None. The third point is about political intolerance.

Kukhona abaholi be-ANC abavela KwaNongoma. [There are leaders in the ANC who come from Nongoma.]

One of them is Philemon Nduli, a relative of mine, and my neighbour. I have known him to be an ANC member as far back as 1985. In fact, last year, during the run-up to last year’s election, we were driving together in the same car, visiting various polling stations in Nongoma.

Manje-ke kuphumaphi lokhu kungabekezelelanani ngokwezepolitiki okukhulunywa ngakho lapha? Kuphumaphi? Ukungabekezelelanani ngokwezepolitiki okukhulunywa ngakho lapha … (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Now, where do you get the information that you are talking about in this House, namely that there is political intolerance in Nongoma? Where do you get that information from? The political intolerance that people are talking about here …]

… started this year when four people at uSuthu were killed. The murderer of those people took refuge in the house of a leader of a certain political party in Empangeni, and there was no condemnation of this. There was dead silence on that.

Ukungabekezelelanani ngokwezepolitiki kuqale ngenkathi kulinyazwa uSombese Buthelezi, elinyazwa ngabantu angabakhomba namanje … [The political intolerance started when Sombese Buthelezi was injured by people whom he can identify even today …]

… but there was no condemnation, only dead silence.   Ukungabekezelelanani ngokwezepolitiki kuqale ngenkathi kubulawa u-Ace Ntshangase … [Political intolerance started when Ace Ntshangase of the ANC was killed …]

… our councillor, by people who are well-known in the community, but there has been no condemnation. There has been only dead silence.

Ukungabekezelelani kwezepolitiki kuqale ngenkathi kubulawa uSkhonde kusele imizuzu eyi-15 kushaye elokuqala ngoMsombuluko mhla zi-5 … [Political intolerance started when Skhonde was killed at 15 minutes to one on Monday 5 …]

… in broad daylight by people who are known. There has been no condemnation and there has been dead silence.

Who is actually involved in this political intolerance? This is a chronicle of IFP members who have been killed up to the present moment in Nongoma. I think that those are the issues that we should be addressing in this House. We cannot afford to go back to the kind of situation that we came from in the pre-1994 era. We must be serious about peace. We must make peace work. We must actually refrain from making propaganda capital out of small things. [Interjections.] That is my assertion.

My proposal here is that we should have a summit on this violence taking place in Nongoma which will involve all local stakeholders - amakhosi [chiefs], izinduna [headmen], abafundisi [priests] and local community leaders. Abahlonishwa oNgqongqoshe [Hon Ministers] should then come and see, and listen to what the local people have to say about the situation in that place. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, would you please take your seat.

Mr D A MOKOENA: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is the hon member prepared to take a question?

The SPEAKER: Order! I think the hon member’s time has expired, in any case.

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Madam Speaker, I will take that question at the airport. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, hon members, last week

• or during the debate on the President’s Vote, to be precise - I indicated that the political assassinations in particular, and the violence in general, in the province of KwaZulu-Natal, and specifically around the Nongoma area, are a matter of grave concern. No serious thinking politician can even begin to dream that that situation has been exaggerated, as the hon member Mr Mncwango wants to suggest. I also indicated during that debate that Mr Mncwango is a problem. [Interjections.]

What he has just uttered here today is an eloquent expression of what we consider to be exactly what he is - a disaster incarnate, and part of the problem that has to be attended to when we are looking for a permanent and lasting solution to the problems that continue to afflict our people in that particular area. He is a problem, and he will need to be attended to as part of that suggestion that I put forward and that we need to have a look into. [Applause.]

Even before we got there, we were provided with the political statements that he has made to the media about ``swords being drawn’’, as one screaming headline quoted him. He is not at all a politician who is keen to see the bloodletting in that province being terminated. He is engaged in every way conceivable, doing his level best to … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, I must caution you in terms of what you are saying. Please reflect that you are in the National Assembly, and if you wish to launch an attack on a member, you should do that by way of a substantive motion.

The MINISTER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The issue here is that there are over 400 people who are in the bush, not fleeing from police brutality. There is not a single incident of police brutality as far as the handling of that situation is concerned. We were with the provincial command yesterday, and also with the national command. They spent the better part of two hours briefing us about that situation. There was not a single word that was referred, by the police themselves, to any element of brutality on their part. It is completely untrue to say that there has been brutality there. [Interjections.]

If they were keeping quiet, it is precisely because of the problem that we feel should be attended to. Nobody, not even the police, said that that faction fight is politically motivated. Even the Deputy President did not say that. The crux of the matter is that one cannot say - I am not referring to the hon member. I would have liked to refer to him directly because I still contend … [Interjections.] - when there are 400 people out there in the bush, and hundreds are seeking shelter and refuge elsewhere in mid-winter, that that situation is not serious. Absolutely not.

Added to that, yesterday we said to the police and the soldiers: Do not go into those bushes and try to flush out those people. Where are you going to be taking them? Because, indeed, there was truth in what the police said, that when they venture to intervene, this way or the other, they are accused by both factions of partisanship. I am saying, as I have said in relation to the problem in the Western Cape, that the root cause is around the issue that has been alluded to by the Deputy President - the land issue. There are no politics about it. We need to reinforce and strengthen the hand of the iNkosi who is handling that problem, and that should be done as a matter of urgency.

In so far as political intolerance is concerned, nobody in this House and outside of this House, specifically from that province and from these two political parties, would refute the statement made by the police yesterday and even on other visits that we made to that area, that the degree of political intolerance seems to be increasing every time there is a election pending. And everybody knows that.

We have discussed the matter between ourselves - that is the Minister of Correctional Services, the Minister of Home Affairs and the Deputy President - and none of us has denied the reality that there is political intolerance in that part of the country. The police stated in no uncertain terms that the idea by the ANC to open a branch there was resented. That is the term they used. It was an act of provocation on the part of the ANC in so far as the followers of the IFP were concerned, because that area has always been seen as an uncontested IFP area. That is what the police have said, and that is, at any rate, what historical common sense says about the politics of that province and area.

The political parties, that is the ANC and the IFP, have been engaged in numerous discussions to address the issue of political intolerance, specifically in that area. It surprises me that there could be somebody rising in this House to say that there is nothing of the kind. That is what the police are saying. They went further to say that at national level, everything is fine. There is good rapport between the ANC and the IFP. But they said that what the politicians needed to do was to ensure that that kind of good relationship that exists at that particular level filters through to the grass-root supporters of these two organisations.

We accepted that analysis by the police, and we said, as political parties, that we must take the blame. We must not blame the police. The blame rests squarely on our shoulders, as ANC and IFP, to address the issue of political intolerance amongst our grass-roots supporters. The member cannot deny it unless he does not want to solve the problem. [Applause.] He does not want to solve the problem so he says it is not there.

We had agreed then that we should reassure the police because, as a matter of fact, it is very difficult for those police - as the Deputy President has said - it is very difficult for them to do this. A politician dies and the police suspend all their core functions. They go and watch the visuals, the funeral, the marchers and everything else. They are not doing their work, and hence, in terms of ordinary crime, Nongoma is far below par. But as regards the issue of violence, gunrunning is central to this issue of political tolerance. That is the issue we have agreed needs to be addressed promptly and forthrightly. It cannot only be confined to Nongoma.

If we take the latest faction-fighting episode, we have to go beyond the province to address the hostels, to address our supporters outside the province and outside Nongoma around the issue of political tolerance, because some of the time it is imported from outside the province right into the province. We also need to address the question of guns that are flowing from Pongola and Mozambique into these areas. There are so many guns in that province. That is why we have had to have the presence of the police and indeed we are making a breakthrough in terms of confiscating the guns that are there.

As far as the shooting at the SANDF is concerned; in fact, when the observation post was attacked, it was not attacked because people had been interfering with women who were taking food and whatever to the people in the camp. That is not true at all. The police themselves are saying that the observation post was attacked that morning by people who were moving in that direction and who, when they were called upon to stop, refused to stop, whereupon the police opened fire. They then pursued them into the bush, where they made contact with about 45 other people who were heavily armed. They took those weapons and arrested seven of them. One of them has a gunshot wound and one is said to have broken his ankle whilst trying to escape. Those people have been hospitalised. There was no incident involving the police and the army harassing people who were bringing food to those people. There was absolutely nothing of the kind. The work of the police is to man roadblocks, to intercept those firearms that are being ferried into that area. In Bambayi, where a soldier was shot and killed, I gather this took place during a cordoning-off operation by these two combined security forces. When the soldier was killed, he was searching a bag containing firearms which belonged to one of those people who were escaping from that co-ordinated search operation. That is how it happened. So, everybody agrees that what we need to address is the issue of political tolerance - the issue of making sure that people are allocated what they require, namely land. Because that dispute basically centres around land.

The taxi violence continues to be a menace in that area, and to this day there is a special taxi unit that is attending to the question of that violence. This concerns the police because besides ordinary collusion amongst taxi operators themselves, a taxi driver will always, in some way or another, be linked to a political party. It makes things difficult for the police, once that happens. Police say that both these political parties have a tendency to claim corpses and that in turn results in the escalation of tensions. That is what the police themselves are saying there.

We received a report from the police on Tuesday and we received another report from the police yesterday. That is the situation at the moment. [Applause.]

Mr A BLAAS: Madam Speaker, I had perceived this to be a serious debate, but I never thought it would be so serious that parts of the national anthem would be played during this debate. [Laughter.]

Ons wil graag onderskryf wat die agb Selfe teenoor die Adjunkpresident gesê het. Ons wil ons waardering uitspreek dat ons die geleentheid het om te luister na wat in Noord-Natal gebeur, asook vir die aksies wat uitgevoer gaan word. Ons moet ook vir mekaar duidelik sê dat die aanwending van magte en sekuriteitsmagte vir die onderdrukking van hierdie soort geweld maar ‘n tydelike oplossing is. As ‘n mens kyk na die ontleding van die konflik, dan is dit duidelik dat daar ‘n baie sterk politieke oplossing agter hierdie probleme lê. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[We would like to endorse what the hon Selfe said to the Deputy President. We want to express our appreciation for the opportunity to listen to what is happening in Northern Natal, as well as for the action which is going to be taken. We must also make it clear to one another that the utilisation of forces and security forces for the suppression of this sort of violence is only a temporary solution. If one analyses the conflict, then it is clear that a very strong political solution lies behind these problems.]

This brings me to the comments made by the hon Mncwango. He made the statement that there was a faction fight behind this whole conflict. My humble opinion is that if that is the case, he himself has the very serious responsibility of trying to get involved in that conflict to resolve it, bearing in mind that we are on the verge of local government elections.

An article which appeared in a KwaZulu-Natal newspaper yesterday, The Daily News, on the increasing tension and conflict in Nongoma, KwaZulu-Natal, was headed ``Opening old wounds’’. Tragically, this is precisely what is happening, and developments in the area must be a source of great concern to all members of this House and also to the citizens of KwaZulu-Natal. What has happened in recent weeks threatens to drag KwaZulu-Natal back into the tragic and untenable era of political intolerance and politically motivated violence in that province.

If that happens, it will be a tragedy for all of us, and it must not be allowed to reach that point, especially in view of the potential instability which can occur in a pre-election phase, which we face between now and 1 November. What is needed now is absolutely cool heads and absolute impartiality on the part of every single arm of Government.

The message of political tolerance must be carried through to the rank and file of all political organs. The example set by the President of the IFP, Mangosuthu Buthelezi, and by hon President Mbeki, should be emulated. Visits by senior members of the executive to this area must be inclusive. All statements should be carefully analysed to ensure that they do not induce provocation. The slightest hint of promotion of a political agenda by organs and officers of Government, who are there to serve all members of society, will not only be totally unacceptable, but unforgivable if the situation deteriorates or spreads further.

Care must be taken not to compromise state organs like the security forces and the Police Service in political conflicts. It is demoralising to the forces and it leads to polarisation in the units. This can only result in inefficiency.

The New NP urges the Deputy President and all political leaders on all levels in their relevant organisations to ensure that a nonpartisan, inclusive, tolerant and responsible approach is ensured. [Applause.]

Mr M E MABETA: Madam Speaker and hon members, on behalf of the UDM I would like to thank the Deputy President for addressing this issue in the manner that he did - straightforwardly, clearly and sensibly identifying important aspects of the problem. I would also like to commend the cluster on peace and security for being able to go there and have an on-the-spot assessment of the situation.

We agree that political violence - or violence per se - cannot be viewed by sensible people as resulting from a single factor. One cannot say that it is just taxi violence, political intolerance, hostilities between one group and another or a land issue. There is usually a multiplicity of issues that are exacerbated as competing interests become more focused. This periodically happens around elections or other such events.

I would like to take a moment and say to the hon member Mr Mncwango that he seems to have highly privileged information about this matter. [Interjections.]

Kufuneka ke aze nolwazi analo, aze kusixelela ukuba kwenzeka ntoni phaya. [Uwele-wele.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] [He should come forward with the information that he has and tell us what is happening there.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]

I will be suggesting to the chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence that the hon member be called to explain to us what exactly is going on there. We will not allow him …

[ukuba athethe isimanga phaya athi incinci laa ngxabano iphaya [Kwaqhwatywa.] Angathini ukuma phambi kwabantu afike athi ukubulawa kwabantu phaya yinto encinci? [Applause.] [to tell a strange story and describe the problem there as a storm in a teacup. [Applause.]] How can he stand before the people and say that the killing of people there is insignificant?]

It is ``a minor squabble’’ compared to what?

Kufanele ukuba ibe inkulu le nto ayaziyo. [Maybe he knows more than he is letting on.]

He has to explain it to us. We want those details. [Applause.]

Adv J H DE LANGE: That is exactly why we have requested a summons. [Interjections.]

Mr M E MABETA: We would like to urge the Government to encourage all the parties involved there - not just the ANC and the IFP, but even the amakhosi - not to pay attention to agreements and records of understanding only when there is tension. It must be an ongoing process that is protected from being exploited by the likes of the hon gentleman lo tata unesimanga [who came here with a story]. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

When he goes to Nongoma, he speaks as if he is accompanied by a certain member of the opposition party. Angathini ukwenza loo nto [How can he do that] in his own area?

Instead of telling us exactly what is happening, who the people involved are, how this has evolved, what efforts have been made, what the different chiefs in the different areas have been saying, the history of the land disputes, the involvement of the churches, and so on, he simply says that this is nothing. Compared to what? [Interjections.]

When we come here, we must understand that there are issues which are serious national issues, particularly violence. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Let us not be so used to violence that we talk about it so lightly. Let us honestly demand from Government and interested parties to mobilise relevant measures and mechanisms in order for people to have their fears, hopes and interests addressed in a manner which does not allow a particular group or political formation to manipulate the situation to such an extent that the interests of the ordinary people are undermined. [Applause.] We do not want another Vietnam; we do not want another Lebanon. We want a free South Africa in which all people can exercise their political rights in a situation that is acceptable by national standards. We have worked for the situation that we have in South Africa. [Applause.]

Ukuba akazange ayisebenzele makahlale phantsi athule. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [If he did not work for that he should sit down and keep quiet.] [Applause.]] Genl C L VILJOEN: Mevrou die Speaker, dit is ‘n ernstige aangeleentheid hierdie en ek is dankbaar dat dit onder die aandag van die Parlement gebring is. Ek wil van die VF se kant ons simpatie uitspreek teenoor die Zuluvolk met dié interne stryd wat by hulle aan die gang is.

Drie faktore is genoem wat ‘n rol speel, naamlik faksiegevegte, taxigeweld en politieke onverdraagsaamheid. Wat die faksiegevegte en taxigeweld betref, is dit ‘n gewone taak wat uitgevoer moet word deur die uitvoerende gesag van die provinsie en op nasionale vlak. Die politieke onverdraagsaamheid is egter ‘n saak wat my hinder en een wat myns insiens in die Parlement aandag moet kry. Daarom verwelkom ek hierdie bespreking.

Ons weet almal van KwaZulu-Natal en die probleme daar. Die regering op nasionale vlak is vir ons ‘n voorbeeld van hoe die probleem opgelos kan word. Niemand van ons kan ontken nie dat die spanning wat aanvanklik tussen die IVP en die res van die Regering - die ANC - geheers het, het op nasionale vlak in ‘n groot mate verdwyn. Ons is dankbaar daarvoor, maar ons weet ook op provinsiale en plaaslike vlak is die dinge nie so goed soos dit moet wees nie. Dit is dus ‘n politieke probleem wat aandag moet kry, en ek wil bietjie hieroor praat.

Die stryd op die oomblik in KwaZulu-Natal gaan oor die volk van Zululand se siel. Die Zuluvolk word uitmekaar geskeur deur politiek. Aan die een kant kry ons ‘n trotse, nasie-georiënteerde volk wat sy geskiedenis hoog ag, wat graag homself wil bly, wat glo aan identiteit, wat tradisionele gebruike wil handhaaf en wat graag oor homself wil regeer, en wat graag sê hulle hou nie van hierdie indeling wat tans op die plaaslike regeringsvlak aan hulle opgedwing word nie.

Aan die ander kant kry ons weer ‘n ander groep wat nuwe liberale swart denke inbring en vir wie die Zulu-identiteit self nie heeltemal so belangrik is nie, maar vir wie Suid-Afrikanisme belangriker is. Dit veroorsaak spanning, maar dit is nie vir ons om op te los nie. Dit is eintlik vir die Zuluvolk self om op te los, maar ons as Parlement moet rigting gee hieraan, en ons moet ‘n beroep doen op die leiers van die IVP en die ANC om hierdie saak aan te pak.

Ek wil graag aansluit by mnr Mncwango, wat gesê het daar moet ‘n spitsberaad gehou word om die saak te hanteer. Ek dink dit is noodsaaklik, want as ons so ‘n probleem nie hanteer nie, as ons maar net voortdurend salf aan die wonde smeer, gaan die wese van die probleem nie opgelos word nie. Iewers vorentoe, met die volgende verkiesing miskien, gaan dit weer ‘n keer uitbars. Ek wil dus ‘n ernstige beroep doen op die leier van die IVP en ook op die ANC om hierdie saak aan te pak en nou bymekaar te kom.

Hierdie voorval kan dalk baie meer wees as net ‘n gewone misdadigheid. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit kan ‘n opborreling van nasionalisme wees. Ons moet waarsku dat dit betyds gehanteer moet word voordat die probleme so aangroei dat daar, soos voorheen gesê is, ook ‘n tipe Viëtnam ontstaan. Dit kan ons nie bekostig nie. Ons wil graag alle mense in Suid-Afrika gelukkig sien. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Madam Speaker, this is a serious situation and I am grateful that it has been brought to Parliament’s attention. From the side of the FF I want to convey to the Zulu people our sympathy with this internal struggle.

Three factors that are playing a role have been mentioned, namely faction fighting, taxi violence and political intolerance. As far as the faction fighting and taxi violence are concerned, it is an ordinary task that has to be performed by the executive authority of the province and at national level. The political intolerance, however, is a matter that concerns me and it is one I feel that should receive the attention of Parliament. That is why I welcome this discussion.

We all know about KwaZulu-Natal and the problems there. Government at national level serves as an example to us of how the problem can be resolved. None of us can deny that the initial tension between the IFP and the rest of the Government - the ANC - has to a great degree disappeared at national level. We are grateful for that, but we also know that at the provincial and local level things are not what they should be. This is therefore a political problem that should receive attention, and I want to talk about this a bit.

The struggle in KwaZulu-Natal at the moment is about the soul of the people of Zululand. The Zulu people are being torn asunder by politics. One the one hand there is a proud, nation-oriented people who hold their history in high regard, who prefer to remain true to themselves, who believe in identity, who want to maintain traditional customs and to govern themselves, and often say they do not like this dispensation that is now being forced on them at local level.

On the other hand there is another group, who are bringing in new, liberal black ideas and to whom the Zulu identity itself is not quite as important, but to whom South Africanism is more important. This causes tension, but it is not up to us to resolve it. It is actually up to the Zulu people to resolve it, but we as Parliament should give guidance in this regard, and we should appeal to the leaders of the IFP and the ANC to deal with this issue.

I would like to associate myself with Mr Mncwango, who said that a summit should be held to deal with the problem. I think this is essential, because if we do not deal with such a problem, if we simply carry on putting ointment on the wounds, the essence of the problem will not be solved. Some time in the future, possibly during the next election, this is going to erupt again. I therefore want to appeal in earnestly to the leader of the IFP and also to the ANC to tackle this matter and to get together now.

There may be much more to this incident than simply ordinary criminality. [Interjections.] It may be the surfacing of nationalism. We must warn that it should be dealt with expeditiously, before the problems accumulate to such a degree that, as has been said previously, a type of Vietnam develops. This we cannot afford. We would like to see all people in South Africa happy.]

Rre P H K DITSHETELO: Motlotlegi Mmusakgotla, Motlotlegi Motlatsa Tautona le batlotlegi Ditona tse di leng teng fa, re lebogela pegelo le tshedimosetso ya kwa Nongoma. Rere seso se monate se ingwaela, le gone molelo o fisa moori. Nako e gorogile ya gore bana ba ga Zulu ba itharabologelwe, ba lemoge gore baba ba bone ba baja setshego. Gape ba lemoge gore maragana teng a bana ba mpa ga a tsenwe, a tsenwa ke masilo fela.

Nako e re leng mo go yone ke ya kgwetlho, ya go lepalepana le dilo tsa botshelo go tokofatsa matshelo a batho ba re ba emetseng mo Palamenteng. Nako ya dintwa tsa semorafe e fetile, mme ga go maungo ape a a molemo a re ka ikgatlang ka one, ntle le go gakologelwa matlhotlhapelo ao a tsisitseng mo bathong.

Aforika e lela selelo sa matlhotlhapelo, sa boeteledipele jo bo lolameng le go lebosega. Fa motho a reeditse selelo seo, o lemoga tsholofelo ya Aforika mo go Aforika Borwa go nna motsereganyi-mogolo mo tharabololong ya mathatha le dintwa tse di mo apereng.

Rona bana ba Sebilo re itse mathata a rarabololwa ka ditherisano le mowa o o edileng. Re gakolola batho ba kwa Zulu-Natala gore fifing go tshwaranwa ka diatla, le gone mathata a bone a tla fela jaaka dilo tsotlhe di tshwanetse go fela, mme ga sala lefoko la Modimo fela.

Ntwa tsa sepolitiki ga dina mosola, ka gonne di a re dia, ebile di dia tswelelopele. A re tshwaraganeng, re lwe le sera kgatlhanong le ditiragalo tse di diragalang. A pula e nele bana ba Aforika Borwa. (Translation of Setswana speech follows.)

[Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Mr Chairperson, Deputy President, Ministers who are here and hon members, we are grateful for the report on the situation in Nongoma. We say that it is much better for one to tackle one’s own problems, not losing sight of the fact that a fire can burn the very same person who is enjoying its warmth. The time has come for the Zulu people to solve their problems, and to realise that their enemies are laughing at them. As the saying goes, it would not be wise for us to poke our nose into their affairs.

We live in challenging times. The time has come for us to tackle our problems head-on, and improve the lives of those whom we were sent to this Parliament to represent. The time for tribal warfare is past. In any event, nothing can come of such conflicts other than the hardship they leave in their wake.

Africa is crying out for upright and exemplary leadership. It is obvious that Africa is looking to South Africa to mediate in some of the conflicts that are bedevilling the continent.

We Africans know that problems can only be resolved through negotiations, in a calm manner. We wish to remind the people of KwaZulu-Natal that they should be there for each other, no matter how bad the situation may be. Like everything else, their problems will come to an end.

Political conflict is not good, because it retards progress. Let us join hands and fight against this common enemy. God bless the children of South Africa.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the PAC thanks the Deputy President for briefing this House about what is happening in KwaZulu-Natal. That part of our country has bled for far too long. A solution to the problem of KwaZulu- Natal is long overdue.

The PAC sends its condolences to all families who have lost their relatives and property in that area. There is a time for war, there is a time for peace, there is a time for funerals and there is a time for weddings. This is the time for peace among the Africans.

The PAC appeals for peace in the country. Recriminations will not solve the problem of violence in KwaZulu-Natal. Political thuggery must be uprooted in this country. It is criminal. Human life is sacred, it is not a cheap commodity. It must be protected. Enough people died during the struggle for the liberation of this country. Let all leaders and parties work for peace in this country. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, Deputy President and Ministers, I would like to thank the Deputy President for coming and enlightening us on this terrible situation.

It is rather sad that one has to stand here and speak about the brutal killing of our people in Nongoma. One should be speaking about peace and progress in our country, not killings. The MF’s message to the killers is: Stop this merciless act and embrace brotherhood. Life is for loving, not for killing.

The MF conveys its condolences to all the bereaved families that have lost their loved ones, and prays for the safety of those that have sought refuge in the bushes and elsewhere. May God be with them.

The MF pleads that we all get together, stop this bickering and fighting amongst ourselves and stand for peace in our lovely South Africa. [Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, dit is duidelik dat hier ‘n konflik ontstaan het, ook in hierdie Huis, oor hoe hierdie saak wat deur die Adjunkpresident geopper is, gehanteer moet word. Daar is ‘n verskeidenheid interpretasies daarvan, soos ons vandag ook gesien het. Dit is nie die AEB se gewoonte om oorhaastige uitsprake te maak en kant te kies voor ons die volledige feite op die tafel het nie, en daarom sal ek my daarvan weerhou.

Wat ek wel wil sê, is dat een dood een dood te veel is. As een mens sterf, kan ‘n mens mos nie sê ‘n saak word opgeblaas nie. Of dit ‘n sterfte in Nongoma is, en of dit ‘n plaasboer is wat vermoor word, dit is ‘n saak wat ons almal raak.

Daar is enkele beginsels waarna ons moet kyk. Wat tog vir my dieperliggend hieruit na vore kom, is die feit dat ‘n stryd soos dié daarop dui dat ons nog nie die ware resep gevind het om die verskeidenheid van belange en groepe in Suid-Afrika te hanteer nie. KwaZulu-Natal en die Zoeloe-volk is ‘n baie goeie voorbeeld daarvan. Hier word pragtig saamgewerk. Die IVP stem vir elke begrotingspos, maar dit is eintlik ‘n kwessie van stille waters diepe grond, maar onder draai die duiwel rond. Dit is kunsmatige oplossings. Ons sal moet kyk na hoe ons die verskeidenheid in ons land kan akkommodeer om hierdie tipe belange te kan hanteer.

Ons vra die Minister om eers die saak te beveilig. Die Minister moet die saak eers vasvat, maar laat ons ook kyk na ‘n politieke oplossing oor die lang termyn om hierdie sake te hanteer. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, it is clear that conflict has arisen, in this House too, about the way in which this matter, which was raised by the Deputy President, should be dealt with. There are a variety of interpretations of it, as we have also seen today. The AEB is not in the habit of making rash statements and choosing sides before we have all the facts on the table, and so I shall refrain from doing so.

What I do want to say is that one death is a death too many. If one person dies one cannot say that a matter is being exaggerated. Whether it is a death in Nongoma, and whether it is a farmer who is murdered, it is a matter that affects all of us.

There are a few principles which we have to examine. What nevertheless emerges from this is the fact that a struggle such as this indicates that we have not yet found the correct recipe for dealing with the diversity of interests and groups in South Africa. KwaZulu-Natal and the Zulu people are very good examples of this. There is wonderful co-operation here. The IFP votes in favour of each Vote, but it is actually a matter of still waters running deep. These are artificial solutions. We shall have to look at how to accommodate the diversity in our country in order to deal with these kinds of interests.

We want to ask the Minister first to safeguard the matter. The Minister must first clamp down on the matter, but let us also look at a political solution for dealing with these issues over the long term. [Applause.]]

Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, government Ministers did very well by going to Nongoma and trying to attend to the ugly situation there. But, a lasting solution in Nongoma and elsewhere will come from politics. The leaders of the ANC and the IFP are co-operating in government at the national and provincial levels. They do not murder one another in the Cabinet offices or in the corridors of Parliament. The challenge facing the leadership of the two organisations is to take this same spirit to ordinary members in the branches and to help the members overcome the pain and bitterness associated with the violence of the past.

We have heard pronouncements by the provincial leaders of the two parties that they plan to visit their constituencies together to address them jointly, to demonstrate this spirit of co-operation and to eradicate the phenomenon of no-go areas. This will help to stop the violence and needless killings amongst supporters of the two organisations. We hope that campaign succeeds. Other factors contributing to the violence need different strategies that other hon members have addressed at this podium. We hope they too succeed. But above all let whatever needs to be done be done to bring peace among our people. [Applause.]

Mr H A SMIT: Madam Speaker, we cannot allow incidents like these under discussion to occur. Our young democracy cannot afford it. The question then arises: How should it be handled? I am not going to refer to political intolerance. I am going to refer briefly to the involvement of the SANDF in KwaZulu-Natal at the moment. I quote from the White Paper on Defence, which was approved by this Parliament in May 1996, as follows:

… to defend South Africa against external military aggression. Deployment in an internal policing capacity shall be limited to exceptional circumstances and subject to parliamentary approval and safeguards.

Furthermore, the White Paper foresaw that the SANDF will only be deployed in -

… the most exceptional circumstances, such as a complete breakdown of public order beyond the capacity of the SAPS, or a state of national defence.

With this in mind, one must evaluate the situation in KwaZulu-Natal as outlined by the Deputy President this morning. In principle my party is opposed to the internal utilisation of the SANDF. If certain support services are needed, however, especially due to South Africa’s current abnormally high crime rate or in the case of incidents such as those outlined by the Deputy President this morning, then provision must be made for a programme of action. But until such times they should be withdrawn.

We must never again allow our National Defence Force - I repeat we must never again allow our National Defence Force - to become a political football. Never, never again must we allow, through internal incidents, that our soldiers become the enemy of certain parts of our community. At present the SANDF is being utilised for too many operations which are not part of its primary functions.

In conclusion, we pray for peace and stability, not only in KwaZulu-Natal, but in the whole of our beloved country.

Dr S C CWELE: Madam Speaker, I was hoping that Mr Mncwango, a person who comes from KwaZulu-Natal, would join me in thanking the Deputy President for raising this important matter, and also in thanking the interministerial committee which went to do an assessment.

The challenge we are facing today demands that we should go beyond just petty party-political point-scoring and utilise our collective wisdom to find lasting solutions. We welcome the measures taken by the Government to enhance the effectiveness of the security forces in Nongoma. As the ANC, we say that the ongoing violence and killing, of whatever nature, in Nongoma is totally unacceptable.

It is definitely not of marginal importance when people are dying, when homesteads are destroyed and when orphans are left roaming around. It has become even more unacceptable that some of these elements are trying to undermine the rule of law. They even have the guts to attack the law enforcement officers. These elements deserve the harshest reaction from and isolation by the democratic forces. To Mr Mncwango I say that it is no excuse that they were not aware that they were shooting at the police. Shooting of whatever nature must stop. [Applause.]

As the ANC …

… sithi umphakathi awubambisane nabezomthetho ukuze kube noxolo futhi sivimbe lezi zinswelaboya. Sekwanele ukubulawa kwabantu beSilo, ngakho makuphele. [… we say people should co-operate with the police so that there will be peace and perpetrators will be arrested.]

In looking for a solution, the main question is: What are the ANC and the IFP, as the major political parties, doing to ensure lasting peace and stability in KwaZulu-Natal? Firstly, we have committed ourselves to peace. Our comprehensive peace agreement is irreversible, despite what Mr Mncwango is saying. The ANC and the IFP agreed that the province of KwaZulu-Natal must never be thrown back to violence again. This agreement derives its mandate from our two party conferences at Mafikeng and at Ulundi respectively. It is also blessed and unequivocally supported by our President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, umntwana wakwaPhindangene [the prince of the Phindangene] and iSilo samabandla [His Majesty]. Business and religious leaders also support it.

Secondly, the peace in KwaZulu-Natal is succeeding. Five years ago, violence was endemic in that province. It was plagued by massacres like the ones in Shobashobane, Inanda, Empangeni, etc. Today the violence is limited to small flashpoints or pockets in areas where backward and retrogressive elements live. This peace process or move has passed, at least, two critical tests. We have had two successful and peaceful elections in 1996 and in 1999.

Thirdly, the bilateral peace structures have laid the foundation for sustained peace in KwaZulu-Natal. Members will remember the signing of the code of conduct by Sbu Ndebele and Mr Mtshali, witnessed by Msholozi and Mthethwa before the 1999 elections, in front of thousands of ANC and IFP supporters in Durban. The youth of both organisations have taken the lead, as demonstrated by a crowd of 20 000 proudly celebrating 16 June last week in their colourful T- shirts. However, the conflict-resolution subcommittee of the peace structure has not been moving at a desirable pace.

We are pleased that the 10-a-side structure, competently led by Sbu Ndebele and Rev Mthethwa has injected new vigour in moving the peace process forward after recent meetings, the latest being yesterday, as mentioned before. They have agreed to urgently finalise the timetable of joint briefings to the lower structures of our organisation, including Mncwango, and joint visits to flashpoint areas to inform the people about our irreversible commitment to the peace process.

The ANC is fully supportive of these initiatives and hopes that such joint visits will be prioritised in places like Nongoma to assist with stabilisation. We also welcome the commitment by both organisations not to shield or protect those criminal elements fuelling violence under the auspices of our parties.

Sithi masiyekele emaphoyiseni ahlakule lezi zigelekeqe ezicasha ngezinhlangano uma zibulala abantu. [We say, let us leave the matter with the police, who will eradicate crime and arrest these criminals who hide under the banner of our political parties when they kill people.]

The third force is not going to take this victory for peace initiatives lying down. They are going to strike out desperately. This is the reason one finds nonsensical statements like the one which appears in UmAfrika newspaper. It is mischievous to suggest that the Deputy President is in possession of some tapes which are supposed to be discussed in bilateral meetings, with allegations of threats to the King of the Zulus.

Lastly, there are those who come with accusations of hit lists. The ANC believes that this does not help us to move forward. All organisations can produce such lists. Clearly, there are some forces feeding in wrong information in order to fuel this conflict. We strongly recommend that those who have such lists or such information hand it over to the police, as agreed in our bilateral meetings. This will help to break the cycle of impunity.

It is irresponsible, however, for leaders or public representatives, such as the one who is leaving now, to make such dangerous utterances in public, without giving the information to the police when they are called on to submit statements. We call upon the security forces to act decisively against those who continue to inculcate the culture of fear and killing in Nongoma or similar areas. We also call on all the people of KwaZulu-Natal to heed the call by the ANC and the IFP to promote peace, more so because we face the last leg of the democratisation of local government in our land with the coming local government elections. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, that concludes the response to the statement by the Deputy President. We want to thank the Deputy President for responding to the request by the House to come and brief us, and we are also appreciative of the presence of Minister Tshwete, to add to the briefing.

Hon members, to remind you, and I think you probably do not need reminding, that you have had a number of weeks of very intensive sessions and now go on to a well-deserved period of leave, followed by constituency work. Committees dealing with legislation will be allowed to meet from 14 August. All members will return to Cape Town on 11 September. I wish you both a rest and a very intensive constituency period. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 10:20. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

Papers:

1. The Speaker:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance:
     Regulation No R.556 published in Government Gazette No 21249 dated
     31 May 2000, Treasury Regulations made in terms of section 76 of
     the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance for comment:


     Regulation No R.562 published in Government Gazette No 21253 dated
     5 June 2000, Draft Regulations published for comment in terms of
     section 5 of the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework, 2000
     (Act No 5 of 2000).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Training Board for Local
 Government Bodies for 1998-99, including the Report of the Auditor-
 General on the Financial Statements for 1998-99 [RP 66-2000].

1. The Minister of Public Works:

 Tiro - Community Based Public Works Programme Publication, June 2000,
 Volume One Number One.

1. The Minister of Labour:

 Report and Financial Statements of the National Economic Development
 and Labour Council for 1999-2000.