THURSDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:04.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Dr A S NKOMO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Government’s strategy of prevention, treatment, care and support, human and legal rights, monitoring, research and evaluation is based on the thesis that there is a causal link between HIV and Aids;

(2) recognises that sub-Saharan Africa is hardest hit by the pandemic and, therefore, we have to broaden our strategy to include the link between disease and poverty;

(3) urges the people of South Africa to protect themselves appropriately;

(4) calls on the scientific community to work together to find a solution to HIV/Aids which is throttling our country and our continent; and

(5) calls on all stakeholders to combine forces to find solutions to the pandemic and to strengthen the partnership against HIV/Aids.

[Applause.]

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) endorses the motion put forward yesterday in which condolences and sympathy were expressed to the families of the two men who died in a tragic shooting incident at the Simonstown Naval base;

(2) urges the Minister of Defence to desist from his now-customary and wholly superficial practice of making personal findings and reaching conclusions about tragic and unhappy incidents as and when they occur, and thus undermining the commissions of inquiry which he appoints;

(3) calls on the Minister of Defence to make public the “extraordinary steps” he will take to alleviate the racial tension which he says exists in the South African National Defence Force;

(4) notes that the South African National Defence Union warned Minister Lekota, even before the Tempe incident last year, that some of the problems experienced by soldiers had the potential to erupt into life- threatening situations; and

(5) urges the Minister to meet with the South African National Defence Union urgently to address these issues.

Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes the announcement by the Minister of Correctional Services to the effect that the incidence of HIV infection in South Africa’s prisons has increased by 300% over the last three years;

(2) reaffirms the protection afforded by the Constitution to the rights of all human beings;

(3) realises the danger presented to officials in the prison services and HIV-free inmates by the increase in the number of infected prisoners; (4) notes that the Minister and the Department of Correctional Services have already taken steps and have produced a substantial draft policy document entitled “Management Strategy: HIV/Aids in Prisons” which sets out the purpose, policy framework and principles, including guidelines which deal with precautions, treatment and procedures to be followed at admission and throughout the incarceration period; and

(5) commends the Minister and the Department for their initiative and would support the implementation of this strategy immediately.

Mrs R R JOEMAT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that eight members of a family - four children and four adults - died after their home burnt down in Frankdale near Table View outside Cape Town this morning; (2) further notes that the survivors of this tragic incident are ten-year- old twins and their elder sister who is in a stable condition in hospital;

(3) expresses its condolences to the family of the deceased; and

(4) calls on all communities to be extra careful when using candles and paraffin stoves.

[Applause.]

Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move:

That the House -

(1) notes the remark by Cosatu, at its seventh national congress, that those who call for labour market flexibility are in fact defending inequality;

(2) further notes that Cosatu, through its hostile behaviour, is responsible for the greatest inequalities in South Africa, in the light of the following:

   (a)  the unemployed currently number 5,8 million while Cosatu can
       only boast a membership of 1,8 million, but still insists on
       policies that protect jobs instead of creating jobs ...

[Interjections.]

   (b)  Cosatu boasts of its R62 million contribution to the Job
       Creation Fund, but managed to cost the economy billions of rands
       and consequent job opportunities, through its national strike
       against job losses earlier this year; and


   (c)  the Government, in the interest of the economy, is calling for
       wage restraints, but Cosatu is once again threatening strike
       action if its wage demands are not met; and

(3) urges the ANC Government, in the interest of the millions of unemployed people in South Africa, to refrain from yielding to Cosatu’s self-centred demands and act in the interest of those who are seeking an opportunity to contribute to the economy of South Africa.

[Interjections.]

Mr M E MABETA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move:

That the House -

(1) welcomes the consideration of a conscription system by the Department of Defence; and

(2) believes that -

   (a)  such a system will promote a culture of ownership and renewed
       pride in the SANDF, and will assist in the constitutional
       obligation of the SA National Defence Force to defend and
       protect our country, its people and our Constitution, especially
       in human right components of civic education for defence new
       personnel;


   (b)  the initiation of new and original training programmes, together
       with practical experience, will empower new recruits to add
       value to the SANDF in promoting professionalism and discipline,
       as well as strengthen it; and


   (c)  an effective conscription system will eventually build and
       strengthen our all-volunteer reserve force.

Mr M RAMGOBIN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Deputy President, Mr Jacob Zuma, has been awarded the freedom of the city of Prague;

(2) believes that this affirms an important contribution our leaders and the people of our country have made in the human rights discourse and efforts and practices toward national reconciliation and nation- building;

(3) further believes that this will strengthen economic, social and cultural ties between the people of Prague and South Africa; and

(4) congratulates the Deputy President on this important award.

[Applause.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC:

That the House -

(1) notes the Special Review Report on the selection process of strategic defence packages for the acquisition of armaments at the Department of Defence released by the Auditor-General yesterday;

(2) further notes that the report recommended a forensic audit of processes in the R30 billion arms acquisition package deal, after saying that there were material deviations from generally accepted practices;

(3) acknowledges that the PAC has been vindicated and will continue to monitor the process; and

(4) calls on the Minister of Defence to act swiftly on the recommendations of the report and to extend the brief of the Auditor- General to also investigate all the sub-contractors.

Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Azapo:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the steep escalation in the price of crude oil on the
       international market and, therefore, of all petroleum products;
       and


   (b)  that this high price of oil is playing havoc with economies
       worldwide, leading to public protests in many industrialised
       countries;

(2) observes that there is no clear sign, as yet, of the price of oil coming down; and

(3) urges the Government to consider subsidising the price of paraffin, which is used by the poor and vulnerable in our country for cooking and lighting.

Mrs B M NTULI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  former President, Nelson Mandela, will this evening receive the
       World Methodist Peace Award for the year 2000; and


   (b)  former recipients of this prestigious award include
       international luminaries such as Kofi Annan, Anwar Sadat and
       Mikhail Gorbachev;   (2) congratulates former President Mandela, who is regarded throughout
   the world as a great symbol of freedom, justice and peace; and

(3) calls on our former President to continue with his excellent efforts to bring peace and stability to Africa and other parts of the world.

[Applause.]

Mr G A J GROBLER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House notes -

(1) the growing rift in the ANC-SACP-Cosatu alliance in the light of the following:

   (a)  that Ministers Kader Asmal and Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi were
       awarded a "worst employer" award by Cosatu ...

[Interjections.] (b) that this goes to show that there are serious differences between the Government and its trade union alliance partner; and

(2) that the Democratic Party wishes to congratulate Ministers Kader Asmal and Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi on these awards, since they must be doing good work in South Africa’s interest if they have upset Cosatu to this extent.

[Interjections.]

Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) congratulates the Bhekulwandle Primary School in Amanzimtoti and the Mariannhill Park Primary School in Mariannridge, KwaZulu-Natal, on their success in winning the School Computer Centre Award held among disadvantaged schools around Durban;

(2) notes that the winning prize is a fully-equipped computer centre for each school together with training and technical support;

(3) expresses its appreciation for the role played by Unilever and McCarthy Retail in sponsoring the competition and the computer equipment; and

(4) calls on the private sector to play a more prominent and active role in the provision of computer facilities for disadvantaged schools in South Africa.

Mr T L MAKUNYANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Cosatu's seventh congress presented awards to comrades who
       played a significant role in the trade union movement;


   (b)  presentations were made in acknowledgement of all Rivonia
       trialists, recognising their outstanding service and sacrifice
       in the struggle for freedom and justice in our country; and


   (c)  the Elijah Barayi Award for outstanding leadership was awarded
       to Comrade Nelson Mandela;

(2) believes that these patriots made an important contribution in building a new nation, democracy and unity amongst South Africans; and

(3) joins Cosatu in thanking these patriots for the sterling contribution they made in our struggle for democracy.

[Applause.]

Mrs M E OLCKERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move:

That the House -

(1) notes the high levels of air pollution in the industrial areas in South Africa, and that industries specifically in the Durban, Sasolburg and Table View areas must accept responsibility for polluting our environment in the light of the following:

   (a)  that independent testing of air around Sasolburg has found very
       high concentration of 16 very dangerous chemicals, seven of
       which are known to be causes of cancer;


   (b)  that concentrations of these chemicals have been found to be
       eight times higher than the maximum levels allowed in the United
       States of America;


   (c)  that the levels of pollution of some chemicals in Table View
       were found to be seven times higher than the exceptionally
       polluted air in Sasolburg; and


   (d)  that The Mercury, a Durban-based newspaper, found in a door-to-
       door survey that levels of childhood leukaemia ...

[Time expired.] Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) supports the Auditor-General’s call for a forensic audit of, or special investigation into, flaws and deficiencies in certain aspects of the arms procurement process;

(2) notes with concern the Auditor-General’s conclusion regarding the unsatisfactory explanation provided by the Department of Defence on the alleged material deviations from procurement practices; and

(3) calls on the President to issue an order authorising an investigation into these irregularities identified by the Auditor-General as a matter of urgency.

Ms N L HLANGWANA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the perception of many South Africans that some financial institutions are biased against black people;

(2) believes that such perceptions undermine the confidence of the majority of South Africans in the financial sector;

(3) recognises that for the South African economy to grow, the confidence of our own citizens in the business sector is as critical as the confidence of foreign investors; and

(4) calls on organised business to desist from its knee-jerk response of saying that any attempts to address the rights and concerns of the disadvantaged will undermine business confidence, and instead to engage creatively in ensuring that prejudice is eliminated in the financial and business sector.

[Applause.]

                  CONGRATULATIONS TO TERENCE PARKIN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that Terence Parkin won the silver medal in the 200-metres breaststroke event for men at the Olympic Games in Sydney;

(2) believes that this achievement despite the fact that he is deaf serves as a shining example to all South Africans, especially those with disabilities; and

(3) congratulates him on his sterling performance.

Agreed to.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL SYSTEMS BILL

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, I count it an honour to be given the privilege of introducing this important Bill before the House. The resounding defeat of apartheid and the 1994 democratic breakthrough have created the imperative of identifying strategies which are appropriate to the ongoing task of deepening democracy in our country.

Before the House today is the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill.

Mr A BLAAS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: What happened to the consideration of this report of the committee? This is now the second Order of the Day. What happened to the first Order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Your point of order is actually in order. I will request the hon the Minister to take a seat and we will dispense with the issue of the report which will not take the House long. [Interjections.]

The House should now consider the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill. Order disposed of without debate.

Report adopted.

              LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL SYSTEMS BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, before the House today is the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill, a Bill which puts planning, community participation, performance monitoring and service delivery at the centre of its objectives.

The general tenor of the public debate on the Bill suggests that many amongst us have no difficulty in accepting the importance of a local government whose performance standards are such that they are seen to be adequately responsive to local needs. What makes this Bill particularly important is its recognition that in addition to the council and its administration, the local community is an indispensable part of the municipal equation.

It is the Bill’s hypothesis that participatory governance is the key to fostering a harmonious relationship between the council, the administration and the local community. The Bill makes it mandatory for municipalities to consult communities when making decisions which have a bearing on local development and delivery of basic services. In this regard, municipalities will be required to set aside resources for use in encouraging participation by members of the community. Not only will this enhance municipalities’ accountability to the people, but it will also ensure that the needs of the poor are reflected in the policies, practices and programmes of local government.

As elected public representatives, we do not need to be reminded that people have a right to expect their government to be efficient in its dealings with them. The current state of affairs suggests that a revolution in style of governance has to take place amongst both political representatives and officials alike. Indeed, across the world there is an enormous variety of developing practices aimed at finding ways of building and mastering public participation in matters of governance.

The systems which we are introducing, whilst they are unique in many respects, are another welcome addition to the global menu of options for modernising local democracy. I am confident that this Bill will create the legislative climate necessary to inspire public confidence in the business of governance, help enhance the quality of public services and keep our continuing search for a better life on course.

In conclusion, I wish to place on record my profound appreciation to the chairperson and all other members of the portfolio committee for a job well done. I have no doubt that the results of their work will inspire our people’s hope for a better society. [Applause.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Chair, comrades and friends, to put it mildly this is a fascinating, innovative, truly transformative Bill. It is particularly apposite that it is being passed today, on the eve of the local government elections. It is a telling reminder that our local government campaign is not just about the elections, as important as they are, but is also, very crucially, about the transformation of local government. The elections are part, in fact, of overall transformation. So the local government campaign certainly does not end on election day. The elections merely usher in a qualitative new phase of the ongoing local government transformation campaign.

The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is a crucial part of the package of legislation, as explained by the Minister, that defines the new system of local government which is to come into effect after the local government elections. While the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act defines the political structures of the new local government model, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill focuses on the internal systems of municipalities. Essentially the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill gives practical effect to the notion of developmental local government in the Constitution and the White Paper. It sets out an integrated cycle of community participation, integrated development planning, performance management and municipal services provision.

Different speakers from the ANC will deal with different aspects of the BiIl. I will deal with more general issues. Among the major challenges the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill has to respond to are the following: firstly, the need for municipalities to effectively exercise the powers and functions allocated to them and, over time, to take on increasing responsibilities. I hope that the acting DDG, Jackie Manche, is impressed that it is the first thing I have mentioned, as she was very strident about this in a different structure yesterday.

Secondly, there is the need to remobilise local communities and ensure their active and concerted engagement in municipal activities; thirdly, the need to ensure economically and financially viable municipalities; fourthly, the need to restructure municipal administrations to make them more effective, efficient and accountable; fifthly, the need to ensure proper planning and the speeding up of service delivery, especially to the poor and disadvantaged; and sixthly, the need to enhance co-ordination between the three tiers of government and more effectively implement co- operative governance.

These concerns are addressed not just through the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill, but also through the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act and the pending legislation on local government finances. The new system of local government defined through this legislation is a considerable improvement on the present system. Of course, we will not be able to fully implement the new system immediately after the elections.

The ability of a municipality to appropriately implement the provisions of this Bill will depend crucially on issues of capacity, resources and funding. Therefore, there are provisions for the phasing in of aspects of the Bill and the need to take into account the differing capacities of municipalities.

The department has set out its programmes for the transformation of municipalities. The effective implementation of significant provisions of this Bill depends crucially on this programme of transformation, and the committee urges that this programme be appropriately resourced and implemented.

Obviously, this is a Bill that regulates an entire sphere of Government. It deals with issues that are also being taken up by several line-function Government departments and Ministries. As the policies and legislation of other departments and Ministries are finalised, it may be appropriate in future to review some aspects of this Bill, especially if practical experiences in the transformation of municipalities also suggest this. However, it must be stressed that the core aspects of this Bill will easily stand the test of time.

The portfolio committee is acutely aware that the appropriate implementation of the Bill depends on the necessary funding. Municipalities will have to increase their capacity to raise their own revenue, but the national and provincial governments will also have to consider reviewing their financial and other support for local government.

It must also be stressed that the effective implementation of this Bill also depends on the political will of public representatives in all three tiers of government. The ultimate success of the implementation of this Bill depends on the concerted co-operation of all three tiers of government. Clearly then, we do not have some romantic, idealised view of the challenges of this transformation.

Of course, the restructuring of municipal services will pose particular challenges. We recognise that municipalities on their own cannot deliver on all the basic needs of our people. The Bill requires municipalities to become more efficient and effective in the delivery of services through their internal structures. It also provides for municipalities to enter into a variety of partnerships with both the public and the private sectors to speed up the delivery of services.

We have found a very good range of partnerships to speed up service delivery in a way that is sensitive to the needs of the current phase of our unfolding transition. The Bill certainly provides a framework to avoid some of the major difficulties of Egoli 2002 and other restructuring projects. But legislation is obviously not enough. The success of the restructuring of municipal services will depend significantly on the sense and sensibility of all the key stakeholders, including the councillors, the administration, trade unions, business organisations and community structures.

Because of the transformative nature of this Bill, the Democratic Alliance will inevitably not support it. They are resorting to the usual empty mantras. They say that the Bill is too prescriptive and centralist. But the Constitutional Court has already passed judgment on the parameters of national legislation on local government. They say that the Bill will inhibit private-sector involvement in service delivery. But it does not. On the other hand, the rampant, unfettered free marketism of the Democratic Alliance will serve only to further marginalise the poor.

They say that community participation will paralyse councils. This comes from a party that calls itself democratic - the Democratic Alliance. Nevertheless, if one reads the Bill clearly and holistically, it will not. The Bill, in fact, seeks to strengthen democracy and municipal government. It finds an appropriate balance between the need to ensure community participation on the one hand, and the right, ultimately, of elected councillors to govern, on the other. It has to be stressed that there is a mutual interacting relationship between the two.

However, despite their inane opposition, we thank the Democratic Alliance for their active engagement with this Bill. It must be stressed that the vast majority of members of this committee are, in fact, new and that they set out on the course of long hours of debate well into the early hours of the morning.

The hon Peter Smith of the IFP - the IFP, of course, sensibly supports this Bill - has been particularly helpful in processing this Bill, and we express our appreciation for that. Of course, he can be a pain, but he is also a gain to our committee. I know this sounds very much like Muhammad Ali’s type of poetry, but the fact is that Peter Smith, stripped of his ideological straitjacket, has been especially useful to our committee, and we thank him for that.

My thanks also go to Mohammed Bhabha, chairperson of the NCOP select committee, for his outstanding work in processing this Bill, while retaining the integrity of the NCOP processes that must surely unfold after today. My sincerest thanks also go to the Minister and the Ministry, as well as Jackie Manche and her excellent team in the department, Alroy Africa, Petro Bouwer, Fanie Louw, the director-general, and others.

Finally, I want to say that whether this Bill succeeds in the way that we mean it to or not, it is ultimately the responsibility of each and every one of us, including the Democratic Alliance, to see to it that this works because at the end of the day the challenges that confront us in local government are not fundamentally party-political or fundamentally ideological. It is no use sitting on the side and carping, because we all have the common responsibility to ensure that local government works, given, especially, the new model that we are setting out, which is going to increase the responsibilities allocated to local government. Ultimately, the test of service delivery, development, nation-building and a whole series of other issues, not least the economic challenges of job creation, local economic development and so on, will be the value, the success and viability of the new model of local government. [Applause.]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Madam Speaker, hon Minister Mufamadi, hon members, reports from various parts of the country indicate that local government is in a state of crisis. One wonders how the complete changing of the municipal system will affect that crisis. Will it solve it or compound it? That is what this House has to decide.

Let us see what the situation is at the moment. The past six years have been characterised, at local government level, by gross incompetence, overspending, insolvency and corruption; nobody can deny that. [Interjections.] The transitional municipalities created by the ANC have failed the country, but more notably, they have failed the poor. [Interjections.]

Take the recent situation in the Umzinyathi Regional Council, where the councillors voted themselves nice, big, fat pay increases which they had not budgeted for. So, where did they find the money? They just helped themselves out of the equitable share. [Interjections.] This means that they feathered their nests out of the fund provided to enable municipalities to subsidise services for the poor.

In many places, service delivery is scant on the ground. Often, services which have been delivered have been substandard. Maintenance costs have been so high that essential resources have had to be redirected away from delivery into an abyss of unsustainability and insolvency.

An audit published towards the end of 1999 clearly illustrated this crisis in local government. Almost half of South Africa’s 843 municipalities are in a financial crisis; 151, or one in six, are destitute. It has been estimated that municipalities owe a total of some R12,4 billion to their creditors. That amounts to 19 weeks or nearly five months worth of rates and service charges. We live with this legacy today, everywhere - in the cities and the dorps; in the towns and the rural villages. [Interjections.] It is a legacy of failed dreams and broken promises. Over the weekend, it was reported that a voter who was registered arrived at his polling station to demand that his name be taken off the voters’ roll. He was angry with the politicians who had promised roads and other amenities, but had failed to deliver on those promises. [Interjections.] This is the legacy of the transitional municipalities which the ANC forced upon this country. The new package of legislation designed by the ANC to revolutionise local government must now not only deal with the legacies of apartheid, but also the corrupt and bankrupt policies of the ANC’s tenure as leaders of this country. [Interjections.] Today we are to vote on a Bill which defines the internal mechanisms of municipalities in a new system of government. This, it is hoped, will effect transformation at the local level.

The DP believes that the proposed legislation contains many positive features, and please note this: These include the principle of public participation, integrated development planning, performance management, service delivery, credit control and debt collection. However, the DP is convinced that the proposed system is so onerous and stringent that it will be almost impossible for municipalities to respond to their communities’ needs in a timeous, efficient and sustainable manner. The Government is saying to municipalities: Whilst you are struggling to crawl and to walk we demand that you not only run, but bring home Olympic gold in the pentathlon.

The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is characterised by two contradictory and equally onerous policy prescriptions. On the one hand the Bill proposes to implement a rigid policy of community participation and consultation for local government. The close interrelationship between the community being served and the local authority is at the very heart of the system of local government. Community involvement in the affairs of municipalities is therefore not only desirable but necessary if that system is to be called democratic and accountable. However, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill takes this very noble and essential policy imperative to a bizarre and far-fetched conclusion.

The Bill creates cumbersome and expensive structures which all municipalities are required to introduce. These new structures are required to implement, maintain, develop and promote a culture of community participation. Such prescriptive and onerous micromanagement of municipalities will only serve to tie the hands of councillors and municipal managers. Further, it will divert essential resources away from real service delivery into meaningless and superfluous bureaucratic structures.

This emphasis on community participation and grass-roots democracy is, however, completely negated by another provision in the Bill, ministerial regulations and guidelines. Towards the end of many of the most admirable and inclusive chapters of this Bill, the ANC is proposing a mechanism for ministerial intervention in the most detailed internal affairs of municipalities. In direct contrast to the spirit of grass-roots participation, outlined in the White Paper and realised in the chapter on community participation, the numerous ministerial guidelines and regulations institute a rigid, top-down, centralised power framework.

The proposals give the Minister wide, sweeping powers to interfere in the day-to-day affairs of municipalities. The Minister will be able to poke his nose into everything from the remuneration of municipal staff to the seizure of property. The ANC has justified the inclusion of these ministerial measures by referring to the need for guidance during what is likely to be a problematic and painful transition. The DP believes that there should be a limited transitional period during which these awesome powers can be exercised, but past experience has shown that when Ministers are given the power to override normal procedures, the temptation to use and abuse them is too great to resist, and many in this House will know exactly what I am referring to, having themselves been the victims of ministerial megalomania. [Interjections.]

I now wish to point out a further weakness in the Bill. As we all know, delivery of essential services is the basic indispensible function of municipalities. A local council which fails to provide these essential services is like a cow that yields no milk. On the surface, the Bill appears to provide for the outsourcing or privatisation of some of these services, but it then hedges it all by laying down rigid and complicated procedures to be followed. These are so onerous that they will almost certainly deter private contractors from tendering for the services.

The Development Bank of Southern Africa is in constructive partnership with the South African Government. One of the initiatives they are focusing on is public-private partnerships at local government level. We are of the opinion that this initiative will find itself utterly hamstrung by the restrictions imposed by this proposed legislation.

The key to the whole crisis in local government lies not in this or that piece of legislation. It lies in people. In municipalities, this comes down to management and professional people. If we get good management and top- class professionals, then we will have well-run municipalities.

For this to happen along with transformation, infinitely greater attention will have to be given to the upgrading and training of people and the provision of adequate support systems. Get poor management and one will get a Randfontein. There the CEO has had to be suspended because his professional negligence led to a shutdown of electricity for 181 000 residents. The town owed Eskom R6 million. Eskom repeatedly asked the CEO to take remedial action, but the CEO was busy having a conflict with the council and failed to do his duty. It is widely known that this is no isolated incident.

No amount of legislation can make people competent. Because of the reservations we have expressed, which in our opinion highlight the serious defects of the Bill, the DP cannot support it and calls upon this House to reject it. Just here, I would like to assure the committee and our chairperson, Mr Carrim, that the DP will be working alongside everybody else in local government, in order to make it work. We will be playing our part there, together with everybody else. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr P F SMITH: Madam Speaker, may I start by thanking the hon Yunus Carrim for his kind words. They are appreciated.

I think it is important to contextualise this Bill and maybe rather crudely, juxtapose two notions of what local government is. There is the old traditional notion. If one thinks of traditional local government of the old days, one would describe it as rule-driven, hierarchical, bureaucratic, remote from the people, certainly nonparticipatory and technocratic in character. It centres on the delivery of services, and these services are to residents and ratepayers. It is pretty staid and, frankly, boring.

Over the last 20 years, there has been a revolution. Let us call it the neoliberal revolution. If one juxtaposes that with what happened before, what kinds of words do we use to describe it? First and foremost are notions of competitive, compulsory tendering, by which everything municipalities do is available to the private sector to do better than the municipalities. Everything becomes cost-driven. Downsizing, outsourcing and privatisation are key words. It is customer-focused rather than focused on residents, it is highly participative, it is developmentally oriented, it is competitive and dynamic.

That is what happened when the process started 20 years ago, but there has been a process over the last 20 years of softening that approach, and it has coalesced over the last couple of years into what is called the best- value approach to local government. It is that that this Bill seeks to embody in legislation.

There are key elements that the chairperson has referred to. Public participation, for example, is a key thing. I think the DA’s argument that that is overdone is totally false. We define the municipality as comprising three legs. We have the political structures, the administrative structures and the community. The community is part of the municipality and participates in it.

There is the whole notion of integrated development planning, which is both a composite plan, including within it all the other plans, and also a strategic document guiding vision, guiding one’s budgeting process. There is the whole notion of performance management, setting clear objectives for delivery and key performance indicators, so one knows where one is going, measures where one is going and achieves what one is trying to do.

Correcting the problems we have now in council administration relations, there is a hands-off relationship between the political structure and the administrative structures, codes of conduct for each and contracts with senior managers. All these things are designed to improve delivery. Then, of course, there is a whole lot of options for service delivery itself - options which are internal, including ringfenced commercialised operations, and a host of possible external service delivery agreements with other organs of state, with the private sector or what have you.

Finally, the most important issue referred to by the chairperson is the notion of phasing this in. The argument that it is too onerous would be correct if it had to be implemented on day one. The whole point about the regulations is to phase this thing in over up to 20 years. Who knows how long it could be before we get the whole Bill going?

I praise it. I think the Bill is very, very good. Having said that, however, I think of all these things that the Bill tries to do, the biggest challenge is delivery, and it is on the delivery side that we have the greatest weakness. If one looks at the infrastructure, there is crumbling and inadequate infrastructure in the country, and there is a massive need to roll out huge volumes of infrastructure. In fact, Gugu Moloi, who is with the department and now heads up the municipal infrastructure unit, is quoted as saying that R100 billion is the shortfall for municipal infrastructure. That is a vast amount.

Municipalities do not have the finance and they do not have the skills to roll it out, so unless we leverage private sector capital and private sector expertise, it is not going to happen at the rate we want it to. This is where the Bill fails to provide sufficient attention to those mechanisms. We feel that it does not adequately facilitate the provision of private capital. It does not adequately compel municipalities to explore alternative mechanisms for service delivery other than those which are internal and, in the context of promoting private-public partnerships, which is an environment in which we are still experimenting in this country, that is, in fact, too prescriptive.

I think there is an in-built suspicion of the private sector. We need to realise that the private sector is not the enemy. The private sector can work with the state to deliver. But people are too fond of quoting bad examples of PPPs. Sure, there are international water companies, for example, which did not succeed in delivering water, and Bolivia is such an example. However, by the same token, there are examples where the opposite occurs and where the partnership works extremely well. I refer hon members to Buenos Aires.

In 1993 when a contract was entered into between an international private water company and the city, the contract stipulated an immediate drop of 27% in the price. The company had to invest $3 billion over 30 years and roll out water to 5 million people in the city. What has happened in the process over the past few years, is that revenues have doubled, costs have tumbled and everybody is happy. Those are the kinds of examples we are talking about. There are hundreds of examples - some are good, some are bad. but let us not throw the baby out with the bath water by saying that they are all bad. We need to encourage much more of that.

The World Bank itself - I know the World Bank is not very popular on that side of the House - estimates in a report, using water as an example, that there are over 1 billion people who currently do not have access to clean and potable water and that 3 billion lack access to sewerage facilities. It says in the report, and I quote:

Unless governments begin spending much more, the number of people without clean water will rise to 2,5 billion, and to one person in three by the year 2025.

So that is the challenge before us: delivery, money and expertise to deliver infrastructure. That is where I think the Bill is a bit short. Otherwise, the Bill is very good, but just in this one area, it is a bit weak, and I think we will have to revisit this as time goes on.

Perhaps there is no harm in a drop of levity in this House. I would like to propose a toast. Now, of course members of this House do not normally drink toasts, and I do not think that they all have glasses. But even if they had glasses, I would ask them to charge them with H2O, ie water - because of PPP and all the rest - because we do not have champagne. [Laughter.] This Bill is so important. It is really an important Bill. It is going to revolutionise the way in which the entire sphere of Government operates.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Pick up your glass!

Mr P F SMITH: I have a glass here. I want to propose a toast to the person probably more responsible than anyone else in the world today for this Bill, an icon of the 20th century and a revolutionary who stormed the Bastille of poor governance. I am sure that hon members on that side of the House will be delighted to join in the toast to Comrade Lady Thatcher. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: Madam Speaker, the good intentions expressed by the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill are seriously jeopardised by the unreasonable desire of the trade unionists and Communists in the ranks of the ANC to centralise power in the hands of the Minister. [Interjections.] In no fewer than eight chapters of this Bill, regulating powers far beyond what is needed are given to the national Minister for Provincial and Local Government. There can only be two reasons for this. Firstly, the Minister has no confidence in the ability of local government councillors and officials to conduct the business of local government and, secondly, the Minister is nothing more than an instrument in the hands of the SACP and Cosatu, in order for them to reach their political and philosophical goals. [Interjections.] He may even be part of that think-tank.

Ek sien sy beskermheer in die SA Kommunistiese Party sit nou net so twee sitplekke van hom af daar, sodat hy net nie verkeerd moet praat nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [I see that his protector in the SA Communist Party is now sitting only two seats away from him, so that he does not say the wrong thing. [Interjections.]]

The democrats in the ANC must seriously start recognising the enormous dangers for democracy if they keep on allowing the erosion of their legislative power by ministerial regulations directed at satisfying pressure groups within their ranks. [Interjections.]

Die agbare voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee het seker die ``understatement’’ van die jaar gemaak ten opsigte van die hantering van hierdie wetsontwerp. [The hon chairperson of the portfolio committee probably made the understatement of the year with regard to the handling of this Bill.] He said that this Bill was not particularly ideological or party-political, but when we discussed certain chapters of this Bill, the same hon member wanted to ignore the opposition parties because he saw this Bill as the implementation of the policies and ideology of the ANC.

Nou kom daardie agb lede vandag hier en hulle neem ons kwalik as ons vir hulle sê ons gaan nie stem nie vir ‘n wetsontwerp wat die magte in so ‘n mate in die hande van die Minister sentraliseer dat hy plaaslike regering absoluut kan beheer. [Tussenwerpsels.]

In die tweede plek word daar in artikels 40 en 41 van die Grondwet ‘n bepaalde status aan plaaslike regering toegeken, maar as ‘n mens gaan kyk na al die dinge wat in hierdie wetsontwerp omtrent plaaslike regering ingebou is, bly daar van daardie status as ‘n behoorlik gedefinieerde sfeer van regering, soos die Nasionale Vergadering en die provinsiale wetgewers, weinig oor.

Daar moet ‘n rede wees daarvoor. [Tussenwerpsels.] Daar moet ‘n rede wees daarvoor, en die rede is niks anders nie as die volgende, en as ek dit sê, wil ek my in die eerste plek baie duidelik en sterk kwalifiseer. Soos enige ander politieke party, glo die Nuwe NP in die gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid van die plaaslike regeringsvlak. As ons dit sê, wil ek vanmiddag vir die ANC dít sê: hulle het dit gesê voordat hierdie Parlement byeengeroep is. Hulle het dit gesê voordat die provinsiale wetgewers byeengeroep is.

Nou wil ek vir hulle sê hier sit hope van hulle wat nie eens weet waar hulle bedieningsgebiede is nie, en dan praat hulle van gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid en dies meer. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hulle gebruik hierdie wetgewing om agter raadslede op wie hulle ‘n houvas het weg te kruip om hulle pligte na te kom ten opsigte van die raadpleging van die gemeenskappe. Waar is die agb lid Salie Manie se bedieningsgebied? [Tussenwerpsels.] Hoeveel keer kom die agb lid daar?

As ‘n mens verder gaan, sien jy by die definiëring van munisipaliteit word daar verwys na die politieke strukture, na die administrasie en die gemeenskap as deel van daardie munisipaliteit. As ‘n mens kyk na die klem wat daar gelê word op gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid - ons sê weer ons stem saam met gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid - dan is dit vir my ‘n bietjie onbegryplik hoe die regsaanspreeklikheid alleenlik op twee van daardie gedefinieerde entiteite van ‘n munisipaliteit van toepassing gemaak word. Terwyl gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid, ek wil byna sê gemeenskapsdruk, aangemoedig word, word daar hoegenaamd nie verwys na enige poging om dan daardie einste gemeenskap medeverantwoordelik te hou as munisipaliteite van die spoor sou loop nie.

Ten spyte van die belemmerende aspekte in hierdie wetsontwerp, is daar goeie goed, en hier is vanmiddag na baie van daardie goeie goed verwys. Beter dienslewering is baie noodsaaklik. Goed opgeleide amptenare is baie noodsaaklik. So is dit ewe noodsaaklik dat waar munisipaliteite, veral in die oorgangstydperk, nie voldoende kundigheid gaan hê om te doen wat van hulle verwag gaan word nie, daar groter klem gelê moet word op privaat- openbare vennootskappe in die uitvoering van munisipale dienslewering.

Nou kom die agb Regering in hierdie konsepwetsontwerp, en hulle sê hulle wil darem so ‘n effense mate van beskerming kan toepas. In dieselfde asem is hulle só voorskriftelik ten opsigte van hoe dié ``public-private partnerships’’ moet werk dat geen private entrepreneur dit sal waag om werklik intens by die diensleweringsaspekte van plaaslike regering betrokke te raak nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die oomblik wanneer ‘n mens voorskriftelik begin raak ten opsigte van die private sektor, tas jy nie net hul finansiële oorleefbaarheid aan nie, maar ook hul integriteit ten opsigte van dienslewering. Die Regering sal moet leer. Die agb Minister van Sport en Ontspanning ry die wêreld vol agter sportlui aan - die agb Minister kan maar lag! - maar kan hy vir die Huis verduidelik hoe die Regering dit reggekry het om in ses jaar bykans 1 miljoen werkgeleenthede te vernietig? Kan die agb Minister dit vir die Huis verduidelik?

Ek wil vanmiddag vir die Regering sê hy kan op sy kop staan, maar met die voornemens wat in hierdie wetsontwerp opgeneem is, naamlik om plaaslike regering in ‘n soort werkverskaffingsburo te omskep gaan hy verdere werkgeleenthede inboet in plaas daarvan om dit te skep, omdat hy die private sektor buite rekening laat in die hele opset. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Wat die nie-betaling van dienste- en belastinggeld betref, het ons nie beswaar indien daar spesiale maatreëls getref word vir mense wat dit nie kan bekostig nie. Ons is egter nie bereid om onbepaald te aanvaar dat almal wat daarop aanspraak maak dat hulle disadvantaged'',poor’’, dit of dat of inheems is, eenvoudig die reg het om terug te staan wanneer dit kom by die nakoming van hul verpligtinge as verbruikers van dienste nie.

Wanneer ons na hierdie aspek kyk, sal ons noodwendig ‘n middeletoets moet ontwikkel, anders gaan dieselfde gebeur wat nou met hierdie maatskappye gebeur wat so oor hul voete val om aandele teen groot afslagpryse aan agtergeblewenes beskikbaar te stel om hulle ekonomies te bemagtig. Wie koop daardie aandele? [Tussenwerpsels.] Daardie aandele word opgekoop deur mense wat ekonomies meer bemagtig is as ek. Nie ‘n sent daarvan kom by die gewone arm mense uit nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Mense moet ophou om armoede te definieer uit die oogpunt van swart en inheems en mense wat, soos die agb Minister dit stel, rykdom het omdat hulle wit is en weens die kolonialistiese stelsel. Die agb Minister speel met vuur. Ek dreig nie, maar die agb Minister kan gerus na die wêreld rondom hom gaan kyk. Hy is gedurig in Amerika … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Now those hon members come here today and take exception when we tell them that we are not going to vote for a Bill which centralises power in the hands of the Minister to such an extent that he can control local government absolutely.

In the second place, in sections 40 and 41 of the Constitution local government is allocated a specific status, but if one looks at all the things built into this legislation regarding local government, very little remains of that status as a properly defined sphere of Government, like the National Assembly and the provincial legislatures.

There must be a reason for this. [Interjections.] There must be a reason for this, and the reason is nothing other than the following, and when I say this, firstly I would like to qualify myself very clearly and strongly. As is the case with any other political party, the New NP believes in community involvement at local government level. When we say that, I want to say the following to the ANC this afternoon: They said this before this Parliament was convened. They said it before the provincial legislatures were convened.

Now I want to say to them that there are many of them here who do not even know where their constituencies are, and then they talk about community involvement and the like. [Interjections.] They use this legislation to hide behind councillors whom they have a hold over to meet their obligations with regard to consulting the communities. Where is the hon member Salie Manie’s constituency? [Interjections.] How often does the hon member go there?

If one goes further, one sees in the definition of municipality that reference is made to the political structures, to the administration and the community as part of that municipality. When one looks at the emphasis which is placed on community involvement - we say once again that we are in agreement as regards community involvement - then it is somewhat incomprehensible to me how the legal accountability can only be made applicable to two of those defined entities of a municipality. While community involvement, and I almost want to say community pressure, should be encouraged, no reference whatsoever is made to any attempt to then hold that very community jointly responsible should municipalities go off the rails.

Despite the obstructive aspects of this Bill, there are good things, and many of those good things have been referred to this afternoon. Improved service delivery is essential. Well-trained officials are essential. In the same way it is equally essential that when municipalities, particularly in the period of transition, are not going to have adequate expertise to do what is going to be expected of them, greater emphasis must be placed on private-public partnerships in the execution of municipal service delivery.

Now the hon Government comes along with this draft Bill and they say that they want to be able to apply a slight degree of protection. In the same breath they are so prescriptive with regard to how these public-private partnerships must work that no private entrepreneur would dare to become really intensely involved in the service delivery aspects of local government. [Interjections.]

The minute one starts becoming prescriptive with regard to the private sector, one not only tampers with their financial survival, but also with their integrity with regard to service delivery. The Government will have to learn. The hon the Minister of Sport and Recreation travels the world following sportspeople - the hon the Minister can laugh! - but can he explain to the House how the Government has managed to put paid to nearly one million jobs in six years? Can the hon the Minister explain that to the House?

This afternoon I want to tell the Government that it can do what it likes, but with the intentions contained in this Bill, namely to transform local government into a type of labour bureau, it is going to lose more jobs instead of creating them, because it is not taking account of the private sector in the entire setup. [Interjections.]

As far as the nonpayment of service fees and tax money is concerned, we have no objection if special measures are taken for people who cannot afford to pay. However, we are not prepared to accept indefinitely that everyone who claims that they are disadvantaged, poor, this or that or indigenous, simply has the right to back down when it comes to the meeting of their obligations as consumers of services.

When we look at this aspect, we will inevitably have to develop a means test, otherwise the same thing is going to happen as is now happening with those companies which are falling over their feet to make shares available to the disadvantaged at greatly discounted prices to empower them economically. Who is buying those shares? [Interjections.] Those shares are being bought by people who are more economically empowered than I am. Not one cent is reaching the ordinary poor people. [Interjections.]

People must stop defining poverty from the point of view of black and indigenous and people who, as the hon the Minister put it, have wealth because they are white and because of the colonialist system. The hon the Minister is playing with fire. I am not issuing a threat, but the hon the Minister would do well to look at the world around him. He is constantly in America …] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: … en Europa en orals om beleggings te kry en dan is dit die soort opmerkings wat hy maak. [… and Europe and all over to get investments and then this is the sort of comment that he makes.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr J M NGUBENI: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and hon members, the transformation process in the local government sphere since the dawn of freedom addresses the challenges to enhance and deepen democracy at a level closest to the people. In preparation for this final phase of local government transition, the new vision of developmental local government has been developed and largely implemented through legislation such as the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act.

The Municipal Systems Bill before us today is also a significant piece of legislation which will complement a system of local governance in which municipalities will play an increasingly important role in service delivery, the eradication of poverty and the improvement of the social and economic conditions of our people, especially the disadvantaged communities. During the dark days of the NP, who are the newborn democrats, community participation was never part of their language or practice. The voice of the majority was deliberately suppressed. Government accountability and transparency were nonexistent. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill introduces concepts that will shape the system of local governance to be more efficient, transparent and accountable and to have effective leadership. The Constitution recognises that participation and accountability, among other things, are critical for ensuring sustainable democratic and developmental local government. The Constitution states that one of the objectives of local government is to provide democratic and accountable government for communities, and to encourage the involvement of communities and community organisations in matters of local government.

Because of this constitutional mandate, the Bill provides for community participation which is neither negotiable nor a choice, hence it is central throughout the Bill. The Bill compels municipalities to develop a culture of municipal governance that complements formal representative government with a system of participatory governance.

It is interesting and sad to note that the Democratic Alliance that claims and pretends to be the sole custodian of democracy opposes this democratic and progressive piece of legislation which extends and deepens democracy at local level. This makes a mockery of democracy and demonstrates evident traits of opposing and delaying transformation. The Bill, through community participation, will ensure and instil responsible citizenry, as communities will be actively involved in the budget preparation processes that will take their needs and priorities on board. For the first time in the history of local government in our country, because of the ANC-led Government, communities will be the planners through the processes of integrated development plans. Communities will be able to monitor municipalities through the process of performance management systems. Communities will be strategic decision-makers when it comes to the provision of municipal services. This is democracy at its best, understood by men and women who evolved from the structures founded and guided by true democratic values and principles. In this respect, which other structure can be more democratic than the ANC?

The prophets of doom, the so-called democrats who are opposed to transformation, present an argument that allocating resources to capacitate local communities in a meaningful way will add an extra burden to the financially cash-strapped municipalities. Firstly, this is not true when one considers that municipalities are to be reduced and clustered so that they are financially viable. Secondly, the Constitution qualifies the provisions of section 152 by saying that local government should meet the requirement of this particular section within its financial and administrative capacity. Thirdly, communities are not homogenous. They are made up of different groups, some of which are more organised and have better access to resources than others. It is therefore important that the poor and disadvantaged groups are not marginalised and excluded.

Though the Bill places strong emphasis on community participation, it also maintains a delicate balance for elected officials to govern. It also guarantees the rights and duties of municipalities to exercise their executive and legislative authority without improper interference.

Most municipal councils, throughout the country, are experiencing financial constraints due to nonpayment for services and poor administration. If communities are active participants in the affairs of their municipalities, this problem will be easily dealt with. This will enable municipalities to effectively implement credit control and debt collection policies. The Bill introduces the concept of customer care and management with regard to credit control and debt collection.

This system aims to create a positive and reciprocal relationship between persons liable for these payments and the municipalities. It further directs municipal councils to adopt, maintain and implement credit control and debt collection strategies. This will correct the old practice currently employed of introducing credit control and debt collection measures haphazardly and without proper policies. Municipalities will be able to identify people who can afford to but do not pay for services rendered by making provision for indigent debtors and also to differentiate between different categories of ratepayers or users of services. In conclusion, local government has a critical role to play in consolidating our new democracy and it is up to each citizen to make their contribution in the area where they live and work. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is one of the important and critical building blocks to facilitate and promote democratic developmental local governments. According to the hon Bornman, the world started in 1994, but she forgets the years when they messed up local government, together with their friends in the NP. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Chief N Z MTIRARA: Mhlali ngaphambili, abaphathiswa ababekekileyo, amalungu ePalamente abekekileyo nabantwana beenkosi zam abalapha. Kunzima kumasipala kodwa ke … [Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members and all traditional leaders here, things are bad in the municipalities, but …]

… in principle we support the philosophy that underpins the municipal system of local government. Indeed, the system is particularly ideal in urban areas where it readily blends the local systems of social organisation that bring together people from diverse backgrounds.

However, the organising of the process of preparation of the groundwork is so advanced. We would urge that in the not-so-distant future the process of implementation of local government structures be revisited with a view to tailoring and adapting it to suit the peculiar specific conditions of the rural areas which have evolved over centuries and thus acquired a culture and values of their own and which, in most constituencies, are unique.

In terms of section 81(4) of Act 117 of 1998 the MEC for local government in a province may by notice in the provincial Gazette, after consulting traditional leaders, prescribe a role for traditional leaders in the affairs of a municipality. It is very sad that at this stage the role of traditional leaders in council affairs has not yet been decided, but that it will be a subject for negotiation between traditional leaders and the MEC for that particular province. This state of affairs is likely to cause great uncertainty for traditional leaders as regards their enthusiastic participation in the forthcoming municipal elections, when the role they are expected to play in municipal affairs has not been defined, even at such a late stage, namely one month before the local government elections are to be held. Section 81(4)(a) of Act 117 of 1998 further states that the MEC for local government in a province may regulate the participation of traditional leaders in the proceedings of municipal councils. This statement is very vague and ambiguous indeed. It cannot be assumed that such regulations would necessary be in the interest of traditional leaders. There have been so many regulations in Government processes that have caused overregulation and necessitated deregulation. It is always in the interest of the parties involved that before regulation takes place, deliberation should take place between the interested stakeholders and that the regulation should be the product of consensus.

Whether or not deliberations have taken place to the satisfaction of both the traditional leaders and the MECs, the province has to agree on the matter and mode of regulation for the participation of traditional leaders in the proceedings of municipal councils, of which they are part. Section 81(3) of Act 117 of 1998 states:

Before a municipal council takes a decision on any matter directly affecting the area of a traditional authority, the council must give the leader of that authority the opportunity to express a view on that matter.

Surely expressing a view on a matter does not amount to an effective decision-making process? There is a grave danger that the view expressed by a traditional leader in a council may be overruled, and that a decision contrary to the interests of the residents of a rural community may be implemented. Such a state of affairs would make traditional leaders’ subjects feel that they have been sold out by traditional leaders, and cause untold harm in the relationship between traditional leaders and their subjects. Such a process is surely a recipe for political instability.

Section 16(d) of Act 117 of 1998 provides for the determination of the designation of certain councillors to full-time status. What are the criteria used to reach such status? Does this not amount to the usurpation of the electoral mandate by the MEC? On what basis will certain other councillors not be specified as full-time? In terms of what legal framework is the MEC guided in reaching such a decision? Is there no possibility of the employment of discrimination or nepotistic tendencies? Does such as an action in terms of the Constitution of the country not deprive those who are not declared ``full-time’’ of an opportunity to be selected justly and according to a transparent procedure which is generally known to all interested parties?

In conclusion, traditional leaders are here to stay, and those who are sailing with the Western culture will one day realise that this institution was created by God and will never die.

Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members and colleagues of the portfolio committee, today marks another critical phase of transformation. It is a day, in essence, that all South Africans have been yearning for. The question of transforming local government is long overdue. As we all know, local government is one sphere of government that is close to the people. It is charged with the responsibility of implementing not only basic services, but also, in a sustainable manner, with dealing with the infrastructural backlog inherited from the apartheid regime. To do so it will have to be development-orientated.

When the vast majority of people voted for the present Government in the different electoral periods, they did so consciously, saying clearly: Carry on with the good work. Carry on with the mechanisms, processes and measures that will improve our quality of life.'' Increasingly, despite deliberate obstructions, disinformation - as we witnessed today - disruptions, deceit, lies and distortions from those who cling to the past or from the prophets of doom, the people spoke recently in loud voices, saying:Carry on with the programme of transformation. Continue to ensure that South Africa belongs to all who live here’’, and ``the people shall govern.’’ This is the mandate bestowed on us by the toiling, ravaged masses of this country whose interests the ANC Government represent.

The people are saying: ``Break down the apartheid legacy. Do those things that have to be done to ensure development for a better life for all.’’ However, they are also saying that all these things have to be done in a responsible, disciplined and systematic way. Hence, today, we are to pass what is called the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill.

This Bill should be seen as a tool that can be used to deal with the apartheid baggage in almost all its forms and manifestations. It is a tool that will deal with problems such as inequality, gaps in social stratification, overcrowded and impoverished settlements, lack of proper roads, insufficient infrastructure, and lack of access to potable water, especially in the rural areas of our country. In short, it will deal with poor services and fragmented developmental patterns.

I think I would not be doing justice to this debate if I did not address some of the issues that were raised here. It is very clear that some members, particularly those from the opposition parties, who serve on the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, do not understand this Bill. They do not understand what is supposed to take place. They do not understand that there is a need for transformation.

Both Frik and Gloria really said nothing. What they said has no substance. Of course, one can understand that because they say very little at committee meetings and most of the time they keep on going up and down or sleeping. We are not going to waste time on what they are saying because there is work to be done.

For us to make progress, it should be realised that development is for the people. Therefore a Bill such as this one …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon member. Could you please take your seat. Let us listen to this point of order.

Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would just like to ask if I heard correctly. Was the hon Solo telling me that I had been sleeping in the meetings, because not once have I slept in a meeting? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That is not a point of order, hon member. Continue, hon Solo.

Mr B M SOLO: Therefore a Bill such as this one needs a socially structured approach in order to bring about development that will ensure a better life for all. Thus we have developed clearly defined mechanisms with regard to integrated development planning.

It is a known fact that up to 1994, development in this country favoured a specific group in South African society, blatantly neglecting the vast majority. The system as it exists at present is that municipalities are generally not planning as much as they should. Where there is planning, councillors and communities are usually not involved and the planning is done by officials or external consultants, whose interest is nothing other than fleecing the council down to the last drop of blood. This results in volumes and volumes of documents that mostly never get implemented. Therefore, to avoid that, the Bill deals with how municipalities should plan and carry out the delivery of services. It promotes a culture that is responsive to the needs of the people.

To be able to do just that, Chapter 5 of the Bill deals with integrated development planning. This chapter takes absolute control of development planning away from technocrats and/or consultants. In fact, Chapter 5 is one of the elementary chapters that ensure people-driven evolutionary change. If one looks carefully at and understands this chapter, one can therefore, through thick forests beyond the mountains, across rivers, see the light at the end of the dark tunnel.

One of the biggest problems is the lack of consistent development planning. The apartheid regime failed to deal with development planning in a holistic way. This has created a lot of uncertainty and a lack of creativity and vision. As such, Chapter 5 of the Bill deals with how municipalities should developmentally orientate planning.

Chapter 5 establishes the basic mechanisms and procedures that underpin the notion of developmental local government set out in the local government White Paper. Chapter 5 is meant to be a strategic tool for planning medium- term focus. Therefore, integrated development planning is nothing but a strategic planning instrument that can be used and show outcomes of local government.

Maybe to ensure that everyone understands, we need to look at specific provisions of this chapter. Clause 23 deals with developmentally oriented planning, so as to ensure that municipalities strive to achieve the objectives of local government. [Time expired.]

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, hon members, the hon Solo, in his speech just now, made use of the ANC’s slogan that says: ``South Africa belongs to all the people that live in it.’’ I think he made a mistake. What he actually meant was that South Africa belongs to all the people who live in it, as long as they all support the ANC. [Interjections.]

I have not seen anyone so enthusiastic about an Act or a Bill of Parliament as Mr Peter Smith today. Mr Peter Smith was very enthusiastic about this Bill. The fact is that he, in the end, proposed a toast with regard to this Bill to Mrs Thatcher. Now the question arises: Does the ANC also support that toast to Mrs Thatcher, derived from the provisions of this Bill, or not? I do not think that they would agree on the contents in that regard.

The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is the third piece of legislation to give effect to the local government White Paper. The other two, as we know, are the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. On its own, this is one of the better pieces of legislation. However, one has to see this legislation also as part of a total package, a package that deals with the ANC’s transformation policy for local government. One cannot see this in isolation.

Chapter 7 of the Constitution deals with local government. Section 152(1) of the Constitution deals with the objects of local government and states as its first object, the following:

(a) to provide democratic and accountable government for local communities.

Now, the question one should immediately ask is: What exactly does this mean?

Prior to the adoption of the White Paper on Local Government, we in the FF had negotiations, amongst others, with the hon the President, Mr Thabo Mbeki. Mr Mbeki, of his own accord, referred to the example of a town like Carolina. What he said at that stage was that if one took a town like Carolina, with 3 000 white residents and adjacent to that a black township with, let us say, 12 000 to 15 000 residents, if one went ahead and put these two together in one municipality, one would actually be disempowering that white minority, and that was the last thing that the ANC wanted to achieve. We all know today that that is exactly what has happened and that this will happen in each and every demarcated local municipality in South Africa. I think one should take the ANC seriously in that sense. They are committed to the total transformation of local government, and that is exactly what is going to happen. The problem is that there is a positive aspect in Chapter 4 of this Bill, where it deals with the involvement of local communities in the whole process.

Daar is egter ‘n probleem. As ‘n mens luister na die Demokratiese Alliansie, kry jy die indruk dat hulle bekommerd is oor die betrokkenheid van plaaslike gemeenskappe, want hulle sê plaaslike gemeenskappe gaan gebruik word om verkose rade te destabiliseer. Aan die ander kant is die werklikheid dat die ANC ná die verkiesing feitlik ieder en elke stadsraad gaan beheer en dat ander gemeenskappe hulle in ‘n minderheidsposisie gaan bevind en gebruik sal moet maak van die beperkte fasiliteite wat daar is om te probeer om darem ‘n inspraak te kry.(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[There is, however, a problem. When one listens to the Democratic Alliance, one gets the impression that they are concerned about the involvement of local communities, because they say local communities are going to be used to destabilise elected councils. On the other hand, there is the reality that after the election the ANC will be controlling virtually every single town council and that other communities will find themselves in a minority position and will have to utilise the limited facilities which exist in an attempt to have any say at all.]

They will be totally disempowered as part of the whole process. We cannot support this Bill. [Time expired.]

Mr A G LYLE: Chairperson, local government in South Africa is undergoing a profound transformation. The profundity of this change will certainly not only manifest itself in local government, but will also transcend positively into the daily lives of the citizens of this country, thus bringing a better life for all.

We take great pride in the way this Bill has been crafted. This, indeed, is a masterpiece. Its architects were acutely mindful of the deficiencies that existed in the old order. Chapter 6 of this Bill eliminates that deficiency

• the lack of good management. Gone are the days when municipal managers would report to work and all one would see for the duration of their working hours would be a jacket hanging over an empty chair, and gone are the days when municipalities operated in a void. Appropriate key performance indicators must be set by municipalities as a yardstick for measuring performance, outcomes and impact with regard to the municipalities development priorities and objectives. What does this mean for a municipality? It means that a municipality must establish a performance management system, a system that is commensurate with its resources, best suited to its circumstances and in line with the priorities, objectives, indicators and targets contained in its integral development plan.

It is important to know that performance management has never been a characteristic of local government in South Africa. This ANC-led Government is introducing a performance management system as part of local government legislation - a system that is visionary and practical, and that will maximise productivity and make a positive impact on the life of every citizen in this country, especially the poor. Amongst other things, a municipality must promote a culture of performance management in its political structures and administration.

Currently municipalities do not have an early warning system. We attribute this to a system inherited from the apartheid regime, a system that is archaic, lacking in foresight and not developmentally orientated. This piece of legislation will certainly serve as an early warning indicator of underperformance. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill in its performance management system, for the first time in the history of this country, makes provision for the meaningful participation of local communities in the development, implementation and review of the municipality’s performance management system and, in particular, allows the community to participate in the setting of appropriate key performance indicators and performance targets for the municipality.

This means that no municipality will work in isolation. Its local community will become an integral part of the municipality. The Auditor-General will audit the results of the performance measurements annually. The municipality must prepare for each financial year an annual report consisting of a performance report reflecting the municipality’s and service providers’ performance. The MEC for local government must annually compile and submit to the provincial legislature and the Minister a consolidated report on the performance of the municipalities in the province. We believe that this piece of legislation, together with other pieces, will place local government in South Africa in the realm of international standards, having taken note of our unique situation in this country. May I take this opportunity of registering my profound and heartfelt gratitude to our charismatic and inimitable chairperson, Comrade Carrim, for patiently and diligently taking our study group and portfolio committee line by line through this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr G E BALOI: Chairperson, when the Government of this country opted for wall-to-wall municipal governance, hence ensuring that every square centimetre of this country would be ruled by elected people, the Government should have seen to it that issues on the system were addressed at that stage to avoid a situation that has had people sitting in meetings for hours.

The Bill makes provision for community participation and the hope is that this will not be done so as to lure the electorate into believing that they will be caused to participate in the municipal forum. The steps set out on integrated development planning are most welcome, as long as municipalities are given support in raising funds and trained in how to achieve the intended goals.

It is striking that the Bill goes out of its way to single out the traditional leaders and their treatment when it comes to the code of conduct. If traditional leaders were elected in a fair way, they could be readily taken as ordinary members. This is done because they come to serve on the municipal councils at the pleasure of the MECs. One would expect that those of them who accept nominations to serve on the municipal councils would subject themselves to the same code. On the question of the code of conduct, there is no need to have a different set of rules for people who serve on the same municipal council.

The code of conduct for employees of the municipal council is a step in the right direction. We hope that whoever is charged with this will discharge their duties well.

Mr S A MSHUDULU: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members of this House, hon guests, the department and South Africans at large, it is my wish today that on behalf of the ANC I confine my debate to local government, public administration and human resources and municipal service delivery as contained in the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill.

It is also important that before I elaborate on the above, I bring to the attention of this House symptoms of the apartheid problems that were identified in service delivery, and these include the following. Communities and users of services were not consulted about the level and quality of the public service they received. Communities and users of services were not expected to know about the level and quality of these services. There was unequal access, or nothing at all in some rural areas, to services which communities were entitled to. Those in power did not care to treat the poor women and the disabled with courtesy and consideration.

Citizens - predominantly the poor - had no right to know about how local government handled its affairs, as there was no full and accurate information. There was no speedy and effective remedy to the problems and complaints of communities and users. There was no consideration for a public service ethos. The then municipalities did not have sound safety practices. There were no capacity-building programmes put in place for employees working in municipalities. The ANC-led Government further strengthened its research capacity towards transforming local government and addressing the abovementioned imbalances of the past by adopting the RDP general principles that lay the foundation for developmental local government; by demonstrating the will to implement the basic values and principles governing public administration as enshrined in the Constitution and to implement the objects of local government as enshrined in the Constitution; by accepting Government’s obligations to its citizens with regard to provisions in the Bill of Rights relating to environment, property, housing, health care, food, water and social security; by having the will to implement the National Framework Agreement entered into by Cosatu, Salga and Government on restructuring local government for better, efficient and effective public service delivery, by consulting broadly through the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government; by, as the ANC, consulting the masses during constituency work, that is during the ``talking to the people’’ campaign; most importantly, by auditing all councils on service delivery, performance and capacity; and, lastly, by having the will to implement all other legislation mentioned by my comrades earlier.

It is therefore against this background that the ANC-led Government adopted a bold problem-solving stance aimed at uplifting the social standards of all South Africans, with special emphasis on the poorest of the poor, and the transformation of our local government system.

Chapter 7 of the Bill addresses public administration and human resources by referring, under ``Basic principles’’, to the following, which, I think, I need to mention to empower our opposition: local public administration that is governed by democratic values and principles, including the maintenance of a high standard of professional ethics; promotion of the efficient, economic and effective use of resources; public administration that must be development-oriented; the provision of services in an impartial, fair, equitable and unbiased manner; responsiveness to people’s needs and the encouragement of public participation in policy-making, which, of course, is the ANC culture; to remind the opposition, accountable public administration; transparency fostered by providing the public with timely, accessible and accurate information; the cultivation of good human resource management and career development practices aimed at maximising human potential; and, lastly, the fact that public administration must be broadly representative of the South African people, with employment and personnel management practices based on ability, objectivity, fairness and the need to redress the imbalances of the past to achieve broad representation.

The clause further includes the following regarding the objects of local government in administering its affairs. A municipality must strive to achieve its constitutional objectives, which are to ensure democratic and accountable government for local communities; to ensure the provision of services to communities in a sustainable manner; to promote social and economic development; to encourage the involvement of communities and community organisations in the matters of local government; and to comply with its duties in general.

The powers of local government, which include the exercise of executive and legislative authority and use of the resources of the municipality, must be exercised in the best interests of the local community to strive to ensure that municipal services are provided to the local community in a financially and environmentally sustainable manner; to give members of the local community equitable access to the municipal services to which they are entitled; to promote gender equality in the exercise of the municipality’s executive and legislative authority; to contribute, together with other organs of state, to the progressive realisation of fundamental human rights; and to respect the rights of citizens.

To this end, the Bill balances rights with responsibilities, whereby the local community in return contributes to the decision-making process of the municipality and when exercising its right to observe the mechanisms, processes and procedures of the municipality.

This Bill provides that, in the event of any inconsistency with the applicable labour law, the labour law shall prevail. It outlines the roles and responsibilities of political structures, councillors and municipal managers regarding service delivery. It provides for a code of conduct in an endeavour to fight corruption on the part of both councillors and staff.

We in the ANC, therefore, believe that in promoting partnership, the option of the private sector cannot be ruled out, but should be a last resort. Public sector delivery has the following to offer: Meeting social needs and providing services; democratic accountability; sustainable and legitimate planning; minimising of direct costs; improving social relations between workers and users; implementing affirmative action; implementing training programmes; protecting the environment and improving conditions for workers.

Because of time constraints, I would prefer to focus on specific areas of interest in this Bill. Chapter 7, as I mentioned earlier, deals with how the administration is organised to meet the objects of the municipality. The Bill also identifies key role-players. [Time expired.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Mr Chairperson, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill aims:

To provide for the core principles, mechanisms and processes that are necessary to enable municipalities to move progressively towards the social and economic upliftment of local communities, and ensure universal access to essential services that are affordable …

The Bill further states that it aims -

… to empower the poor and ensure that municipalities put in place service tariffs and credit control policies that take their needs into account …

This is commendable, and the PAC welcomes and supports this aspect of the Bill.

But, is there a guarantee that this Bill will achieve these noble ideals for the poor? The reality is that the colonial and capitalist mode of economic development in this country has not changed. The practice of developing the traditionally developed areas where whites live has not stopped. Areas where Africans live continue to be underdeveloped, and Africans are still third-class citizens subjected to a Third World economy in a country endowed with all kinds of mineral wealth.

Rural areas and African townships have inferior schools, hospitals and roads, even police stations. They suffer severe unemployment and poverty, lack of education and technical skills. Illiteracy is high, and millions of Africans live in filthy squatter camps unsuitable for human habitation. Many are in arrears on payment of services. They have lately become victims of sheriffs. The other factor that must be noted regarding this Bill is that a substantial gap remains between the Government and traditional leaders about the structure and powers of local government. Traditional leaders have reiterated their opposition to the demarcation of new boundaries to President Thabo Mbeki.

Will this Bill achieve its purpose in the rural areas without the co- operation of traditional leaders? Some leaders in this country seem to have no sense of history. Unfortunately, history often repeats itself. Laws such as the Native Land Act of 1913, now replaced by section 25(7) of the Constitution, created massive poverty and destroyed African economic power.

The rural areas are in need of more land and a rapid agrarian revolution to restore the economic power to the African people there. The eurocentric approach of turning rural areas into dependent municipalities may cause more problems for this country in future.

African royalty is related to the land question. The land question was the basis of the liberation struggle against colonialism and apartheid. It will not be swept under the carpet for ever. [Time expired]

Rev A D GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, the Local Government: Municipals Systems Bill provides, among other things, for a system of co-operative governance, and my contribution in this debate will be on sections dealing with this.

We have had provincial and national elections, and we are heading for the municipal elections which will complete the transformation of governance in all spheres. The transformation of the third tier of government is going to be of the utmost importance, because this is where the delivery to communities actually occurs.

I now want to refer the House to section 41 of the Constitution, which provides for a system of co-operative governance which municipalities must adhere to whilst exercising their executive and legislative authority. This entails, amongst other things, preserving national unity and securing the wellbeing of the people. Provision is also made for effective, transparent and accountable government. It goes without saying that for co-operative governance to be really effective, we need to have some degree of uniformity. This Bill clearly does that, and it seeks to address the fragmentation which was deliberately aimed at dividing communities in the past. In the context of co-operative governance, the national and provincial tiers of government have a duty to empower local government.

Reading through the Bill, one can appreciate that communities and organised local government are integral parts of a municipality. Communities are now an official component of the municipalities in terms of clause 2 of the Bill. In fact, the Bill provides for communities to be active participants in the affairs of a municipality.

Organised local government, and in our case, Salga, has a responsibility to bring about uniformity amongst municipalities. The Bill recognises that some municipalities have the expertise and resources to be effective, while others do not. This Bill therefore provides for organised local government to do three things: firstly, to develop common approaches to local government affairs; secondly, to find solutions to problems; and, thirdly, to facilitate compliance with the principles not only of co-operative governance but of intergovernmental relations as a whole. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill also provides for another dimension to co-operative governance, and this is the requirement that a municipality’s planning must be compatible with the planning of other municipalities and organs of state. Municipalities will thus not be carrying out their functions in isolation. No, there will be uniformity, and this will be to the benefit of all citizens.

Besides the fact that municipalities must co-operate with one another in a spirit of co-operative governance, section 153(b) of the Constitution also requires them to participate in both national and provincial development programmes. It therefore goes without saying that if municipalities are required to comply with national and provincial legislation, the onus is therefore placed on the organ of state concerned to consult with the affected municipality as well as with organised local government if and when the need arises for a particular function to be assigned to a municipality individually or to municipalities generally.

Having said that, may I add that when a Cabinet Minister or MEC assigns a function to a municipality, that particular Minister must ensure sufficient funding and capacity-building to ensure the successful execution of that particular function. Each municipality will be completely autonomous. It therefore goes without saying that a municipality has the right to govern on its own initiative, and to exercise executive and legislative authority without interference.

In conclusion, I want to say this. Now is the time to move ahead speedily. Now is the time to make life worthwhile for the people. Now is the time to take local government, especially delivery to the people of South Africa, to a yet higher level. [Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit is welbekend dat die AEB ernstige probleme het …

Mnr J H MOMBERG: Al weer?

Mnr C AUCAMP: … met oom Jannie! … met die totale strukture en afbakeningswette van die munisipale bedeling. Ons is egter bereid om positief te kyk na wetgewing binne hierdie struktuur, en hierdie is een van die beter wetsontwerpe. Ons het die openheid. Ons weet dat die totale pakket wetgewing op munisipale gebied op ‘n ramp afstuur. Indien hierdie wetsontwerp egter daartoe sou bydra dat hierdie rit na die ramp aangenamer sou wees, sou ons dit selfs steun.

Daar is positiewe aspekte in hierdie wetsontwerp. Kom ons gee erkenning daaraan. Die eerste is die betrokkenheid van die gemeenskap, iets wat baie mooi aanklank by ons vind. Eie ervaring is dat ‘n mens verder kom met gewone mense as met politici, en dat die leiers van ‘n gemeenskap meer die gemeenskap se belange op die hart dra. Dit is positief.

Verder kan dit ook ‘n verdedigingsmeganisme wees teen ‘n politieke agenda wat afgelaai word op plaaslike owerhede. Ook die probleem van ``careerism’’ by plaaslike raadslede, waarvan gepraat is, kan aan bande gelê word deur die magte aan die gemeenskap. Dit bied ook geleentheid vir groter selfbeskikking waar ‘n kultuurgroep hom inpresteer. Daarom kan ek verstaan dat die IVP ook opgewonde is oor hierdie wetsontwerp. Verder is dit in pas met die afwenteling van gesag.

Daar is egter ook in hierdie saak ernstige probleme. Die eerste is die kiesstelsel. As ons hierdie ding van gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid wil laat werk, moet ons die verkiesings ook depolitiseer. Ons kan nie in die verkiesing ons gemeenskappe mobiliseer en sê hulle moet ANC of DA stem, en dan wil hê die gemeenskap moet self die verantwoordelikheid aanvaar nie.

Verder vereis gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid gemeenskapsverantwoordelikheid, anders kan dit ontaard in populistiese anargie. Ek sien nie die riglyne wat werklik die verantwoordelikheid van die gemeenskap onderstreep nie. Wat hier wel staan, is ‘n klomp voorskrifte van hoe die gemeenskap homself moet organiseer, en dit is geen waarborg vir verantwoordelike besluitneming nie.

Ten spyte van hierdie probleme wat ek genoem het, sou die AEB hierdie wetsontwerp wil steun ter wille van die geleenthede vir plaaslike bemagtiging, maar, soos die Afrikaanse liedjie lui, ``agter alles, wie laaste lag, is skoppensboer’’. Wie is skoppensboer in dié geval? Die Minister. Die Minister kan by feitlik elke saak ingryp. In wese het ons maar nog ‘n gesentraliseerde opset. Die wetsontwerp verleen magte aan die plaaslike gemeenskappe, maar hulle is soos ‘n bobbejaan aan ‘n ketting, en die Minister hou hierdie ketting vas; jy kan nie verder beweeg nie, jou vryheid is ingeperk.

In dié verband ‘n woord aan die DA. Hulle het gevra vir die uitfasering van die Minister se bevoegdhede. Hulle het in die verlede al gevra vir ‘n sonsondergangklousule vir regstellende optrede. Die vraag is tog hoekom dit nie beding is nie. Is 90% van ``Fighting Back’’ nie dalk teen wat hulle self in die Grondwet beding het nie?

Die AEB, daarenteen, vra ‘n ander grondwetlike bestel wat werklik magte verleen aan gemeenskappe, vry van die finale band en hand van Big Brother. Die AEB is gunstig ingestel teenoor die wetsontwerp, maar kan dit om hierdie rede nie steun nie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, it is well known that the AEB is experiencing serious problems …

Mr J H MOMBERG: Again?

Mr C AUCAMP: …with Uncle Jannie! … with the total structure and demarcation laws of the municipal dispensation. However, we are prepared to look positively at legislation within this structure, and this is one of the better Bills. We have the openness. We know that the total package of legislation in the municipal sphere is heading for disaster. However, if this Bill were to contribute to making this ride towards disaster a more pleasant one, we would even support it.

There are some positive aspects in this Bill. Let us acknowledge that. The first is the involvement of the community, something which really appeals to us. Our own experience indicates that one gets further with ordinary people than with politicians, and that the leaders of a community pay more attention to the interests of the community. That is positive.

Furthermore, this can also be a defence mechanism against a political agenda which is dumped onto local authorities. Also, the problem of careerism on the part of local councillors, which has been discussed, could be curbed by the powers given to the community. It also presents an opportunity for greater self-determination where a cultural group can come into its own. Therefore, I can understand why the IFP is also excited about this Bill. In addition, this is in line with the devolution of power. However, there are also serious problems in this regard. The first is the voting system. If we want this concept of community involvement to work, we must also depoliticise the elections. We cannot mobilise our communities during the elections and say to them that they have to vote for the ANC or the DA, and then expect of a community to accept the responsibility themselves.

Furthermore, community involvement requires community responsibility, otherwise it can develop into populist anarchy. I do not see the guidelines which really underline the responsibility of the community. What does, in fact, appear here is a host of regulations regarding how the community must organise itself, and this is no guarantee for responsible decision-making.

In spite of these problems that I have mentioned, the AEB would like to support this Bill for the sake of the opportunities for local empowerment, but, as the Afrikaans song says, ``agter alles, wie laaste lag, is skoppensboer’’ [after everything, the one who laughs last, is the jack of spades.] Who is the jack of spades in this instance? The Minister. The Minister can intervene in practically every matter. In essence, we still have a centralised setup. The Bill grants powers to the local communities, but they are like a baboon on a chain, and the Minister is holding this chain; one cannot move any further, one’s freedom is limited.

In this regard a word to the DA. They asked for the phasing out of the powers of the Minister. They have, in the past, already asked for a sunset clause for affirmative action. The question is why this was not negotiated. Is 90% of ``Fighting Back’’ not perhaps against what they themselves negotiated into the Constitution?

The AEB, in turn, asks for another constitutional system which truly gives powers to communities, free from the final bond and hand of Big Brother. The AEB is favourably disposed towards this Bill, but for this reason we cannot support it. [Time expired.]]

Mnr D A A OLIFANT: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil net graag vir die agb mnr Cassie Aucamp sê dit is baie belangrik dat hy hier kom erken dat hy ‘n nikswerd politikus is. Dit is natuurlik ook so dat hy alreeds lank voor hy hier kom sê het dat hy dit nog sou oorweeg om die wetsontwerp te steun, geweet het dat hy dit nooit sou steun nie. Nie lank gelede nie het die agb Frik van Deventer hier gestaan en hom vreeslik uitgespreek teen die DP wat hulle so ondermyn het. [Tussenwerpsels.] Nou kom hierdie einste man en hy kom sê vir ons ons speel met vuur en ons het probleme! Daardie agb lid het ernstige probleme! [Tussenwerpsels.] Hy is so ongelukkig in hierdie samesmelting, hy is gefrustreerd en hy gaan nie baie lank hou voor hy gaan aftree nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D A A OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to tell the hon Mr Cassie Aucamp how important it is that he has admitted here that he is a useless politician. Of course, it is also true that long before he stated here that he would still consider supporting the Bill, he already knew that he would never support it.

Not long ago the hon Frik van Deventer stood here and expressed vehement disapproval of the DP, that had been undermining them so much. [Interjections.] Now this very same man comes here to tell us that we are playing with fire and that we have problems! That hon member has serious problems! [Interjections!] He is so unhappy in this merger, he is frustrated and will not last too long before he resigns.]

Mark my words! [Laughter.]

Ek wil net verder sê dat Gloria … [In addition I just want to say that Gloria …]

… is coming here to teach us as if we are school children. We are not school children. [Interjections.] It is true that we were never …

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Mr Olifant referred to this lady next to me as ``Gloria’’. I do not think that that is parliamentary. [Interjections.]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Chairperson, I withdraw the reference to Gloria''. I just want to say that, before coming to ... [Interjections.] I said that I withdraw that reference. I will refer to her ashon Gloria’’. If that will elevate her status, it is fine with me. I do not have a problem.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, just withdraw that reference nicely and then continue with your speech. Mr D A A OLIFANT: Chairperson, I nicely withdraw the reference, and I am now calling her ``hon Gloria’’.

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, on a point of order: That hon member referred to me as ``Cassie’’ but I did not mind. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Chairperson, I just want to say that the hon Frik van Deventer stated here that the majority party has been so ignorant of their input. Let me just tell hon members that he is spreading disinformation in this House. We have painstakingly gone through this Bill, night after night. We have established task and technical teams which worked for three weeks and on an average of four nights a week. We kept them here until one o’clock in the morning, and we knew that their brains would switch off by nine o’clock in the evening. [Laughter.] So we kept them here.

I must tell hon members just how democratic we were. The hon Minister must also listen to this. We were so democratic that we did not receive this Bill from the Cabinet and simply put it on the table and say: ``That is the Bill’’. We have debated this Bill amongst ourselves as the ANC. Obviously, they were out of the picture because they did not understand at all, as they still do not understand at this point in time. [Interjections.]

So we are saying that when we came to the finalisation of this Bill, everybody had been brought on board, even the hon Gloria. [Laughter.] She comes here and tells us that … [Interjections.] The amazing thing is that every single speaker … [Interjections.]

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The speaker referred to this member as the hon Gloria. She is the hon Mrs Borman. [Interjections.]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Chairperson, that is the essence of the DP - sheer stupidity! [Interjections.]   The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Olifant, let me just make a ruling on this. The member is not out of order. He referred to Mrs Borman as ``hon Gloria’’. That is fine. There is no problem with that. [Interjections.]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Well, Chairperson, that is the quality that they are producing here. One can see where they are going with their Disastrous Alliance. [Interjections.] I just want to say that I think it is important to stress that right through the debate and right through this whole process of this Bill this afternoon, every single speaker has referred to the importance of community involvement. Why is it important? For so many years, local government was for the advantage of a certain sector which was 3% of the community, and not to the advantage of the entire community.

Mrs G M BORMAN: We agree with you!

Mr D A A OLIFANT: I must also emphasise to the hon Mrs Borman that life did not start in 1994. She has so conveniently forgotten we had unsafe townships for so many years. Why is that so? Why do we not have these wonderful established residential areas? Because she was living off the fat of the land at the time and everything was hunky-dory. [Interjections.]

Now we are saying that with this Bill we are trying to change everything. That hon member has forgotten where she comes from. She must look in the mirror every day and check what the colour of her face is. [Laughter.] She must just check that … [Interjections] … because I know what my colour is. [Interjections.] Everybody in this country has been yearning for a better life under local government.

We have been saying that the hon Borman and the DA - the New NP and the DP

• do not understand this Bill. Nowhere in this Bill have we said that the community can prescribe. We have said that we must bring in a framework within which communities can actively participate in the operations and the management of local government. We are quite serious about that and we are not shy to say it.

I would like to tell the hon Frik van Deventer that we are not shy to go to Cosatu and say that we need support from them, because they are our allies. We do not have a bed that we cannot make. That hon member is too scared of getting up in the morning and coming out of Houghton, because he does not want to be seen in Houghton with Tony Leon. I am not scared of being seen with Cosatu. I am happy to be with them, because that is an alliance that has come a very, very long way. It is an alliance that neither that hon member nor anybody else is going to break. [Applause.] We will decide when and how that alliance is going to function. We just want to say … [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Koel af, Olifant! [Calm down, Olifant!]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Dankie, ek gaan afkoel. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Thank you, I am going to calm down. [Interjections.]]

We just want to bring to the House’s attention the fact that over the last registration weekend they had placards on lampposts saying: Oppose unfair rates''. Do hon members know where they put up these placards? It was in Manenberg, Atlantis, Delft and all these areas. They are saying to people in Athlone, Manenberg and Atlantis:You must keep on paying higher rates so that we, in Constantia, can enjoy the low rates and so that our stable lives can continue.’’ [Interjections.] [Applause.] That is what they are saying.

Let me give the hon Mrs Borman a fact: In Atlantis we are paying higher rates than those paid by the residents of Camps Bay; in Athlone, we are paying higher rates than Constantia. And she is saying to those very people of hers: ``Keep it up, keep it up.’’ [Laughter.] That is not on. [Interjections.] We are in the process of changing this whole country with local government. We are in the process of totally revolutionising the whole question of local government. Therefore, we thank with pride Yunus for his leadership and the Minister for his inspiration, as well as the committee and the department. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, could we please give the Minister a chance to reply to the debate.

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon members, the DP’s hon Mrs Borman, thanks to the democracy for which our people fought so hard, has a democratic right to say things which do not make sense. [Laughter.] [Applause.] She describes with alacrity what she calls ``the crisis in local government’’. [Interjections.] She not only doubts the efficacy of what we are putting forward as solutions, she resents them.

In her view, the emphasis on public participation is negated by ministerial intervention. If she was the democrat that she professes to be, she would have understood that whilst there is indeed an inherent tension between the two, the solution does not lie in opting for one to the exclusion of the other, but, rather, in the dialectic between the two. [Applause.] Where the debate is about democracy, the DP member, the hon Mrs Borman clearly needs an interpreter. The hon Mr Van Devénter …

An HON MEMBER: Van Deventer.

The MINISTER: … however it is pronounced, does not believe in the importance of saying things which are relevant to the matter under discussion. He uses the platform to confess to the fact that the New NP is still haunted by the spectre of deepening democracy in our country. Tired arguments about communists and trade unionists attest to this. [Interjections.] When he wants to say things which are particularly irrelevant and naughty, he resorts to the use of Afrikaans. [Interjections.]

I want to assure the hon Mr Mtirara that I noted everything which he said about traditional leaders and their relationship to local government. I do not know whether to attribute this to a poor state of organisation or to the fact that he is possibly circumspect. Clearly, he read a script which was intended for an intervention in the next debate.

Having said this, I wish to thank all the hon members who participated in this lively discussion. [Applause.] Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time (Democratic Party, New National Party, Freedom Front and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).

        LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL STRUCTURES AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson and hon members, since the passage by Parliament of the Local Government Transition Act, Government has put in place a substantial architecture of policy and institutional mechanisms for purposes of enabling the local government sphere to discharge its constitutional mandates.

Looking back we can be proud of the distance we traversed within this relatively short period of six years. The distance traversed thus far enables us to make a clean break with the negotiated phase of local government transition, and to break away from the old dispensation within the constitutionally prescribed timeframe.

In the last few months we have established in all provinces municipal facilitation committees which have since been engaged in the process of disestablishing old municipalities and creating conditions for the creation of new municipal entities. In the course of this process it became clear that the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act had sections which retarded rather than facilitated the process. The proposed amendments are informed by the practical experience of the various practitioners who have been attending to this task. They had to tackle a task which, in many ways, was without precedent.

It goes without saying that this democratically elected Parliament is committed to the deepening of local democracy. The Bill before the House offers us the opportunity to put that commitment into practice. I wish to take this opportunity to commend the MECs for local government affairs, leaders of organised local government, as well as the officials of the Department of Provincial and Local Government for their co-operation in helping to smooth the path towards the creation of a new local government dispensation.

A word of thanks goes to the many traditional leaders who not only worked with the Municipal Demarcation Board to facilitate the redemarcation of municipal boundaries, but also participated fully in the work of the municipal facilitation committees. The participation of traditional leaders in the establishment process augurs well for their future enhanced role in the governance of the country. It was with this idea in mind that Government initiated a process of consultation with traditional leaders and other interested parties. As we were conducting these consultations, we proceeded from the given reality that, whilst it provides for the creation of three tiers of government, our Constitution does recognise the traditional structures of governments.

We took it as a given that the law enjoins us to design institutional arrangements which will facilitate co-operation between all the tiers of government, and between the tiers of government and the institution of traditional leadership. We are also mindful of the fact that recognition of traditional structures is not expected to present an excuse for blocking or even reversing the hard-won democratic rights of our people. Government has taken steps to immediately improve the level of representation of traditional leaders within structures of local government. This will, hopefully, go a long way towards stabilising governance in the hitherto marginalised rural areas of our country.

The arrangement proposed in the Bill throws up a big challenge to elected public representatives and traditional leaders alike - the challenge of mastering the art of peaceful coexistence. Those who are custodians of the institution of traditional leadership are being called upon to realise that, in order for the institution to be embraced by democracy, the institution itself must embrace the reality that democracy is here to stay.

Yesterday, the Minister of Home Affairs and I met with the Independent Electoral Commission and the Municipal Demarcation Board. After that meeting, it became clear to me that we are still on course, as planned, to proclaim the election date next week. A favourable consideration of the Bill by this House can only give the necessary impetus to the process of further democratising our country, and we look forward to it. [Applause.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Mr Chairperson, comrades and friends, the magnitude of the local government transition under way should not be underemphasised. It is a mammoth and gigantic transformation. It is unique, creative and power- breaking. In fact, many experts, both in this country and internationally, tell us that it is one of the most ambitious transformations of local government in recent times. They also point out that it is almost universal that it is far more difficult and challenging to transform local government than provincial or national government or what are called state governments elsewhere in the world.

Given the complexity and magnitude of the transformation, it is inevitable that, while the fundamental aspects of the Bill are constantly retained through the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, certain other aspects might have to be reviewed, based on practical and other considerations that cannot always be foreseen. The amendments to the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act have to be understood in this context.

Essentially, the amendments seek to provide greater legal certainty on some issues, and take into account certain practical needs in establishing the new municipalities. The Bill provides greater clarity on the distribution of functions and powers between district and local municipalities. The different functions and powers have now been disaggregated or broken down through consultation with various line-function departments and Ministries. Also, it has now been decided that the district and local municipalities will be allocated the functions and powers that are due to them, respectively, in terms of the Constitution and legislation.

Where the district councils cannot exercise a particular function or power because of a lack of capacity or for other reasons, they will authorise the local councils to exercise this function or power. There will now be a separation between the allocation of a function or power and the exercise thereof. Needless to say, the reverse can also apply, but the aim, essentially, is to reduce the gap between this over time, so that there is coincidence between capacity and the exercise of function and power. Various consequential amendments - they are highly technical and they do not need to detain us here - flow from this, relating to the establishment of the new municipalities. These include issues around the transfer of assets, staff and liabilities in particular.

What flows from this essentially is a two-year transitional period as part of the longer-term transformation of municipalities. These amendments, it must be stressed, do not detract from the fundamental values and politics of the new local government system. In fact, they advance it. If the Bill is appropriately implemented, the process of ensuring, for example, strong district councils, will be enhanced.

In fact, if one looks at the new system, the district councils are meant to provide for regional planning, redistribution, capacity-building of local municipalities and bulk infrastructure. This particular concept we now have in the new amending Bill will actually enhance that in time with the rural integrated development strategy that the Deputy President’s office is preoccupied with. Of course, the Minister has dealt at some length with this and I need hardly say much about it. But this Bill does increase the percentage of representatives on municipal councils from 10% to 20% in respect of traditional leaders.

Of course, there are sections of the traditional leadership who are not happy with this - indeed the IFP is not. But, as the Minister indicated and as the portfolio committee has repeatedly said, there are ongoing discussions between traditional leadership institutions and traditional leaders and the Presidency and the Minister. A Green and White Paper process is unfolding. This matter must be seen in the context of the overall review of the role and function of traditional leaders in our new democracy.

I want to end by thanking the many people that contributed to processing this Bill very, very expeditiously, in particular Fanie Louw and Jackie Manche from the department. I also want to take this opportunity to say that if there are many issues that do divide the different parties in the portfolio committee, there is one that certainly does not, and this is that we have an outstanding committee secretary, Llewellyn Brown - I hope he is in the auditorium. We are deeply grateful to him for all that he does to process our work. I want to take this opportunity to express our deepest gratitude to him. Also in the gallery Debbie Hene who, in the absence of a researcher for the portfolio committee and with the co-operation of the opposition parties, serves to play that role. I want to express my heartfelt thanks to her. [Applause.] Thanks to all the committee members. Finally, I want to say that in our committee of about 14 to 15 people, only three of us, the old guard, were in this committee before June 1999. But if one were to observe our committee, one would doubt that very much. I want to thank particularly the members of my own party for their excellent work. [Applause.]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, Minister Mufamadi, hon members, we are all anxiously awaiting the date of the elections. When that is all behind us, the restructuring process will reduce 843 municipalities to 284. Much of the apartheid legislation will be replaced with new legislation aimed at developing and uplifting those who were previously disadvantaged. There will be a reduction in the number of councillors from 12 000 to 8 000. But megacities will come into being, taking local government, I am afraid, away from the people.

These amendments to the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act will provide for transitional arrangements necessary to ensure that services will not be interrupted. That is extremely important. The Bill also contains a chapter which allows for prescribed intervention from national Government during a specific timeframe for a limited period of transition. However, we remain concerned about the expense that this period of restructuring will exact on the fiscus, and more specifically on municipalities.

As we emphasised in the previous debate, many municipalities are already in dire financial straits. This legislation promises to aggravate an already parlous situation.

Pierre Uys, the MEC for Provincial and Local Government in the Western Cape, has estimated that it will cost in the region of R500 million to restructure each of the Category A megacities. This means a total of R3 billion, and on top of that comes the expense of restructuring another 237 municipalities. We must also consider this figure, knowing full well that municipalities collectively owe more than R12 billion to creditors already. As we all know, in exercises such as this, there are invariably cost overruns. This all points to one massive financial nightmare. Good luck to the Minister when he goes cap-in-hand to the Minister of Finance to bail him out of the mess.

We also remain concerned about the process the Government has decided on for rationalising merging municipalities’ staff remuneration packages. As it stands, staff moving from one municipality to another will earn as much as their highest paid equivalent colleague in the new municipality. It has to do with the grading system. Salary bills are going to skyrocket. Who is going to pay for this? Is there a budget allocation for all these as-yet- unknown expenses, or will our new-look municipalities be doomed to chaos and bankruptcy from the word go?

This week we also heard that the proposed Johannesburg megacity has begun to refurbish its offices at the not-so-bargain price of R6,3 million. In most of the transitional councils, huge expense was involved in providing lavish accommodation for themselves within the last five years. For example, in the inner-west of the Durban Metro, where I served as a councillor, R650 000 was spent on a new council chamber, which now becomes redundant. In the new dispensation, this process will presumably be repeated, not only in the six megacities at some R6 million a throw, but in all the rest as well. If municipalities are left to carry the can, as they were forced to in the last transition, we can expect nothing less than further municipal indebtedness, insolvency and ineffectual governance at local government level.

I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate the IFP on its decision to support the DA in its rejection of the executive mayor option for the Durban metro. [Interjections.] The DA remains convinced that the proposed system of executive mayors will institute a system of distant and unaccountable government, unresponsive and out of touch with the real needs of their communities.

The ANC, no doubt, will manipulate and exploit their self-designed centralist mechanism to entrench power in the hands of national Government and the Minister through the deployment of ANC cadres to local government. We have even heard a speculative rumour - maybe I am mistaken - that the hon the Minister may even find himself heading up a municipality somewhere come next year.

The ANC has legislated for yet another expensive, painful transition for local government. The people who are finally affected by all this, the residents of our new municipalities, can, it seems, look forward to further declining service standards, higher rates and crumbling governance. I hope they prove us wrong.

The DP, despite the serious reservations that I have outlined, will support the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill.

Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Sihlalo namalungu ahloniphekile, labo abathetha amacala nabaziyo ngokuthethwa kwamacala bayazi ukuthi uma kusabangwa, mhlawumbe uma abantu bebanga inkomo, umuntu akayithathi inkomo leyo ayinikeze omunye icala lingakanqunywa.

Kusekhona-ke inkulumo ekhona lapha. Kunombango ophakathi kwabaholi bomdabu nomasipala. Kodwa sesibona kuthiwa akuqhutshekwe omasipala banikezwe amandla emisebenzi leyo eyenziwa ngamakhosi.

Udaba lokwenza amakhosi abe yimihlobiso emikhandlwini yohulumeni basekhaya luthulwe phambi kukaMongameli wezwe, sekulindelwe ukuba amakhosi noMongameli babambe izingxoxo nabaholi bomdabu kuze kufike ezivumelwaneni, njengoba uMongameli ethembisa. Uma singazikhohlisa ngokuthi ukukhushulwa kwenani lamakhosi emikhandlwini yomasipala kungukuphendula udaba lwamakhosi, angixheguli ukuthi lokho ngabe ngukusinisa amahleza nje. Lokhu kukhushulwa kunjalo nje akunawo namalungelo okuvota.

UmThethosisekelo waleli zwe ubonakala ububhuqa ubukhosi uma uthi uyabuhlonipha kodwa bube buphucwa ubuholi namandla okuphatha izindawo zabo. Kimina, lesi senzo sifana naleso sokuzingela kanye nezinja ube ubaleka nezinyamazane. Lo mThetho wenza ubukhosi isichuse sohlobo lombuso owafika nabezizwe. Akusilona iqiniso ukuthi umsebenzi wamakhosi awunikwa yimibuso yamakoloni kanye nombuso wobandlululo ngoba ngisho nengane encane, esanuka ibele, kufanele ngabe iyazi ukuthi amakoloni ephuca ubukhosi amandla okuphatha. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon members, even judges and prosecutors know that if there is a dispute, possibly over a beast, the judge does not give the beast to one of the disputants while the case is still being tried.

There is an outstanding issue here. The dispute is between traditional leaders and municipal councils. Now we hear that municipalities should be granted powers to perform the duties that were previously performed by amakhosi. This notion of regarding amakhosi as waxwork images in local government has been reported to the President. Now the President and traditional leaders should have a meeting so that they can reach an agreement as the President has promised. We would be fooling ourselves if we believe that the increase in the number of traditional leaders in municipal councils is a solution to the problem faced by amakhosi. I am quite certain that taking such a step will be a joke because that increase does not include voting rights.

The constitution of this country appears to be mocking the system of traditional leadership while it says it respects it. It deprives the system of traditional leadership of its power to govern in the areas of amakhosi. I liken this action to hunting with the hounds while at the same time running with the hare. This Bill makes traditional leadership a figurehead type of leadership, which was introduced by colonialists. It is not true that amakhosi were given their duties by colonialists and the apartheid regime. Even a baby who still smells his mother’s milk should know that the colonialists were the ones who deprived traditional leaders of their power to govern.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, it appears that we have a problem. The interpretation is not coming through. I can make out that there is someone trying to interpret, but it is not coming through. I wonder if we could arrange for the interpretation to come through so that members can hear what is being said. You may take your seat, hon member, until we sort out the problem. [Interjections.]

Hon members, we have not been able to get someone from technical services to deal with the problem. I think the hon member should continue, and we hope to be able to hear the interpretation. [Interjections.] Yes, let us try one more time. Hon member, you may continue.

Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, bengithi-ke nengane esanuka ibele nayo kufanele ngabe iyazi ukuthi amakoloni ephuca amakhosi amandla okuphatha nokubuswa kwezwe kanye nomhlaba. Wona amakhosi aphenduka aba yizakhamuzi zombuso wamakoloni ezingenawo amalungelo; kangangoba iqembu elibusayo, i-ANC, lasungulwa nawo amakhosi eyingxenye yomzabalazo, kodwa namhlanje kubhalwa le mithetho esizithokozisa ngayo ekwenzeni amakhosi inhlekisa.

Sekuphele iminyaka eyisithupha abantu baseNingizimu Afrika beqalile ukuvota, kodwa mayelana nodaba lwamakhosi kusathungathwa ukuthi bangafanelwa yini abaholi bomdabu. Kepha lokhu okungesikhona okwakithi yikho esesiphenduke saba ngongqeqe ngakho, esesikwazi kangcono. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Thank you, Chairperson. I was saying that even a small baby who still smells his mother’s milk should know that the colonialists deprived amakhosi of their power to rule over their own areas and to resolve land issues. Amakhosi became mere citizens as they did not have rights under colonial rule. The ANC as it is ruling now, was founded with the assistance of amakhosi as they were part of the struggle. But today legislation is passed so that we can please ourselves by making amakhosi a joke.

It is six years since the people of South Africa voted for the first time. But the issue of amakhosi is still unresolved, and amakhosi do not know whether they are recognised or not. What is traditionally not ours, is what we have become expert in. We know it better than our own legacy.]

I would like to conclude by reading from a letter containing the Government’s response to the submissions by traditional leaders on their role, powers and functions, which was signed by the President, and I quote:

The challenge we are faced with at this moment in time is to find a way of stabilising our system of governance in the rural areas by creating a climate within which the institution of traditional leadership and elected institutions of Government can co-exist. This is a challenging task, but it is achievable.

I submit that converting traditional leaders into zombies and then increasing the number of those zombies to 20% is not addressing the concerns raised by traditional leaders and their communities. [Time expired.]

Mnr F J VAN DEVENTER: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil graag van die geleentheid gebruik maak om te sê dat die Nuwe NP hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp sal steun, deels omdat dit te doen het met die oordragmaatreëls na die nuwe munisipaliteite, maar ook deels omdat die voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee hierdie wetsontwerp op ‘n baie billike manier in die portefeuljekomitee gelei het. Aan hom baie dankie daarvoor.

Die oordrag van funksies van die ou of bestaande munisipaliteite na die nuwe munisipaliteite gaan noodwendig ‘n klomp groeipyne hê. Daar gaan baie onsekerheid ontstaan omtrent die personeelsituasie - die hantering, oorplasing en aflegging van personeel - wat ‘n geweldige ruimte kan skep vir inmenging in die sake van plaaslike regering, wat op sy beurt eindelose laste kan plaas op die belastingbetalers en finansiële bronne van plaaslike bestuur.

In die tweede plek is dit ook nodig dat ons in gedagte moet hou dat dit plaaslike regering se doelwit is om regering so na as moontlik aan die mense te hou en dat ons baie versigtig moet wees met die oordra van funksies van die B-munisipaliteite na die C-munisipaliteite. As ek dit sê, het ek begrip daarvoor dat baie van die funksies beter uitgevoer kan word deur sommige C-munisipaliteite, maar daar is B-munisipaliteite wat wel die kapasiteit en die vermoë het om op ‘n gedesentraliseerde wyse dienste te lewer op grondvlak aan die publiek en die mense rondom hulle.

Omdat hulle nader aan die mense is, glo ek, is dit noodsaaklik dat daar in die hele oorgangsproses en in die hele proses van die vestiging van die nuwe munisipaliteite baie noukeurig daarop gelet moet word dat ons nie in ‘n poging of in ‘n strewe om beter dienslewering te bied hierdie soort regering wegskuif van die mense af na ‘n punt toe waar hulle nie daarby kan uitkom nie.

Wat die nuwe Hoofstuk 2 betref wat in die wysigingswetsontwerp opgeneem is en wat handel oor die oorgangsfunksies, is dit so dat daardie hoofstuk ná twee jaar verval. Indien die Minister dit goeddink, kan dit ook ná ‘n korter tydperk verval wanneer die oordragfunksies plaasgevind het.

Ons gaan ‘n nuwe bedeling binne wat nuwe eise gaan stel. Ons gaan ‘n nuwe bedeling in wat vir baie raadslede en amptenare ‘n vreemde situasie gaan skep. Die manier waarop raadslede en amptenare hierdie onbekende pad gaan aanpak, gaan ook in ‘n baie groot mate afhang van hoe hierdie Nasionale Vergadering en die provinsiale wetgewers sake gaan hanteer waaroor hierdie twee sfere van regering beheer het.

Ek wil vanmiddag in hierdie vroeë stadium ‘n pleidooi lewer dat ons nie sommer waar daar ‘n probleem mag ontstaan hardhandig op hierdie mense moet afkom nie. Ek dink ons moet werklik intens daarna kyk om eerder by wyse van opleiding en die uitbreiding van vaardighede raadslede en amptenare te bemagtig om goeie dienslewering op grondvlak te beskerm.

Ek steun graag hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: Mr Chairperson, I would like to take the opportunity to say that the New NP will support this amending Bill, partly because it deals with the transitional measures to new municipalities, but also partly because the chairperson of the portfolio committee has piloted this Bill in a very fair manner in the portfolio committee. Thank you very much to him for that.

The transfer of functions from the old or existing municipalities to the new municipalities will of necessity experience any number of growing pains. Many uncertainties will arise regarding the staff situation - the handling, transfer and retrenchment of staff - which will create tremendous room for interference in the affairs of local government, which in turn may place endless burdens on the taxpayers and financial resources of local government.

In the second place it is also necessary for us to bear in mind that the objective of local government is to keep government as close as possible to the people, and that we should be very careful with the transfer of functions from the B municipalities to the C municipalities. Having said this, I understand that many of the functions can be performed better by certain C municipalities, but there are B municipalities that do in fact have the capacity and the ability, in a decentralised manner, to render services at grassroots level to the public and the people around them.

Because they are closer to the people, I believe it is essential that in this entire transition process and in the whole process of the establishment of the new municipalities, great care should be taken that we do not, in an attempt to deliver better services, remove this kind of government from the people to a point where they cannot reach it.

Concerning the new Chapter 2, which has been incorporated in the amending Bill and which deals with transitional functions, it is true that the chapter in question lapses after two years. If the Minister deems it desirable, it may also lapse after a shorter period once the transitional functions have taken place.

We are entering a new dispensation that will make new demands. We are entering a new dispensation that will create a situation which is alien to many councillors and officials. The manner in which councillors and officials tackle this unknown course will, to a great degree, depend on how this National Assembly and the provincial legislatures are going to deal with issues controlled by these two tiers of government.

This afternoon I want to appeal, at this early stage, that we do not just, wherever a problem may arise, adopt a harsh stance towards these people. I think we should instead really take an intensive look, by means of training and the development of skills, at empowering councillors and officials to protect sound rendering of services at grass-roots level.

I take pleasure in supporting this amending Bill.] Mnu I B NTSHANGASE: Sihlalo, oNgqongoshe kanye neNdlu yonke, ngiyanibingelela. Sekungokwesithathu izigatshana zalo mthetho, esiwuchibiyela namhlanje ziza lapha phambi kweNdlu ukuthi kuzoxoxwa ngazo.

Kunezigatshana ezine ezibalulekile engizothanda ukukhuluma ngazo namhlanje, ngaphambi kokuthi ngiphendule kwezinye zezinkulumo esezike zenziwa ngaphambili. Isigatshana sokuqala ngese-14 esenza ukuthi imikhandlu ekhona njengamanje ikwazi ukuthi ibe sokhethweni ezinyangeni ezimbalwa ezizayo, ngokuthi isebenzise lezo zinombolo eyanikezwa zona ngenkathi imingcele iklanywa, kungasasetshenziswa amagama ngoba amagama azothatha isikhathi eside ukuba enziwe ngoba uKhongolose, okuyiwona ohola imikhandlu eminingi, uyathanda ukuthola kubantu ukuthi magama maphi azosetshenziswa emikhandliwini ezayo.

Lesi sigatshana se-15 sibeka nemigomo ezosetshenziswa, esemthethweni, ezokwenza sikwazi ukuthi sakhe imikhandlu emisha kanjalo futhi sichithe nemikhandlu emidala. Siphinde futhi senze kukwazi ukuthi kushintshwe abasebenzi bomasipala, basiwe kwimikhandlu emisha, ngokulandela umThetho wezabasebenzi. Lesi sigatshna futhi siphinda senze kube khona ukuguqulwa noma ukuhanjiswa kwamafa nezikweleti, kususwa komasipala abakhona kusiwa komasipala abasha, kanjalo nokuqhubeka kwemithetho yomasipala ezobe ikhona sesiyisusa kohulumeni abadala, siyisa kohulumeni abasha.

Siphinde futhi lesi sigatshana sibeke nemigomo ezolandelwa ukuze sikwazi ukuthi sivikele izimpahla zohulumeni basekhaya, njengokushintshwa kwezabasebenzi kanjalo futhi nokukhethwa noma ukusungulwa kwezikhundla ezintsha ukuze kube khona ukuvikeleka. Sike sabona ngaphambilini ukuthi uma sekuza okhethweni, sekuzoshintshwa uhulumeni, labo abaphethe baye bazisikele amaqatha amakhulu, bezinikeza izikhundla. Kuzophinda kongiwe nezimpahla zikahulumeni ngokuthi kungathengwa izimpahla ezingenasidingo kunqandwe futhi nokunyamalala kwazo. Yiso lesi sigatshana esizokwenza ukuthi nezimali zingachithwa, ikakhulukazi lezo ezigodliwe.

Kukhona nesigatshana sesibili, sona esikhuluma ngesibonelelo esenziwe nguMongameli sokwandisa inani lamakhosi azobe ekhona emkhandlwini kusuka eshumini kuya kuma-20%. Lokhu kuzothi kwenzeka, ngaso leso sikhathi, sibe futhi silindele izingxoxo ezizobe zenziwa zeNcwajana yoHlu lweNqubo engahle ilandelwe ekubunjweni kwemithetho (Green Paper) kanye neNcwajana yoHlu lweNqubo ezosetshenziswa ekubumbeni umThethosivivinywa (White Paper) mayelana nodaba lwamakhosi. Siyakuqonda kahle-hle ukuthi lolu daba lwamakhosi wudaba olubucayi, ngakho-ke kubalulekile ukuthi lwenziwe futhi luphathwe ngesinono kanjengoba singakaqedi nanokuthi ngempela, kahle-hle, ngobani abangamakhosi ngoba siyazi ukuthi imibuso engaphambilini yobandlululo neyamakholoniyali yasikela abanye abantu ababeyizincelebana zayo, yabenza baba ngamakhosi. Kubalulekile nokuthi nalo lolo daba singaluqali phambili, emandleni, kodwa siluqale ekutheni ngobani ngempela labo abangamakhosi oselwa angempela. Kubalulekile-ke ukuthi lolu daba, uma siluxoxa, siluxoxe ngendlela okuyiyona futhi enobunyoninco ezokwazi ukuthi ithathe zonke izingxenye ezibalulekile.

Kubalulekile futhi ukuthi, uma sibheka isigatshana 3, sibone ukuthi sikhuluma ngamandla okufanele ukuthi anikezwe ohulumeni bomasipala, ikakhulukazi labo abasezingeni lezifunda, ukuze kungabi khona ukungqubuzana phakathi komasipala abazobe bengaphansi kohulumeni bezifunda. Esinye futhi isigatshana esilandelayo esibalulekile ngesesi-4, okuyisigatshana eselulekayo ngokuthi amandla kufuneka ukuthi ehlukaniswe kanjani lapho kufakwa khona ibhodi ezimele, okuyiyona eklama imingcele, kanjalo noNgqongqoshe bezifunda.

Okunye okubalulekile ngukuthi kunodaba lwabaphathi bamadolobha obeluke lwabekwa ngaphambili. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Mr I B NTSHANGASE: Chairperson, it is a pleasure to salute you, hon members and the House at large. This is the third time that sections of the Bill that we are amending are being tabled in this House.

There are four important clauses that I would like to talk about today before I respond to other speeches that have already been delivered. The first clause is clause 14, which enables the present municipal councils to vote in a few months’ time by using the numbers that they were allocated during the demarcation period. They should not use names because that will take too long. The ANC, as it leads many of these councils, wants to find out the names that will be used by the future municipal councils.

Clause 15 provides the legal policies that will be used and will enable us to elect new councils and disband the old ones and transfer municipal workers from the old municipal councils to the new ones. It provides policies that will enable us to transfer the existing by-laws to the new councils. This clause also stipulates the procedure to be followed so that the property of the local governments will be protected. Human resources will be transformed and the creation of new posts will be protected.

We have seen before that when it comes to elections, this means that there will be a change of government. Those who are in power go to extremes when they award themselves positions. Government property will be saved by ensuring that no unnecessary property is bought and that what is there does not disappear. It is this clause that will make it impossible to spend money unwisely, especially the reserved funds.

Clause 5 of this Bill talks about the example that has been given by the President which will increase the number of amakhosi who will participate in the municipal councils from 10% to 20%. While this is taking place we will also be waiting for the report which will be printed in the Green Paper and in the White Paper with regard to the issue of amakhosi. We understand that the issue of amakhosi is serious. We know that the colonialists and the apartheid regime appointed their spies as amakhosi. It is important not to overlook this point and also not to be emotional about it. We should first look at who the indigenous amakhosi were. It is important that when we discuss this issue, we discuss it well and in such a way that every important fact is considered.

It is also important to look at clause 6 which talks about the powers that should be given to municipal councils, especially those that are at local level, so that they will not conflict with those of provincial governments. Another important clause is the clause which clarifies how powers should be distributed and when to include Ministers and an independent body that will demarcate the boundaries.

Another important issue that was put forward is that of mayors. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The technical support team is attempting to make it possible for us to hear the interpretation. In the meantime, I have communicated in writing to Madam Speaker that there has been a general deterioration in the quality of sound that we have been experiencing. If that is so from all quarters of the House, I think it would be imperative for this matter to be dealt with expeditiously, in order that each one of us is in a position to hear clearly what is being said by the speaker at the podium. [Interjections.] So I hope that that matter will be resolved in due course.

Chief N Z MTIRARA: Mhlali ngaphambili, ifani yam nguMtirara. ke Ngoko ndiyaqiniseka ukuba kwithuba elizayo uya kuyibiza ngohlobo olufanelekileyo. Mhlali ngaphambili, nawo onke amalungu eNdlu … [Chairperson, my surname is Mtirara and I hope that next time you will pronounce it correctly. Chairperson, hon members …]

… to build our country, we must all accept that traditional leaders have an important and integral role to play in this country. This institution of amakhosi needs to be transformed so as to achieve full legitimacy, democracy and, accordingly, respect and acceptance by all.

In order to achieve a clear definition of roles between elected councillors and born leaders of royal blood in our country, local government in rural areas must be restructured in a manner that removes the existing uncertainty and friction that has led to the performance of municipal functions being the responsibility of elected councils. Traditional leaders should play a vital role for their people, and their roles should be related to category B municipalities.

There must be an interaction of both district and local municipalities in terms of projects or programmes within the traditional leaders’ jurisdiction. The demarcation authority should have taken into account the existing boundaries of traditional leaders when the demarcation process kicked off. In the light of this, section 12 in Chapter 2 of the principal Act makes mention of demarcated areas, but does not outline the process of incorporation of traditional authorities into a municipal council in the process of the establishment of municipalities.

A problem arises in Schedule 5 to the Act, where traditional leaders are included in disciplinary proceedings for misconduct against them, for contravening or not observing provisions of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 1998, viz failure to attend three consecutive municipal council meetings, disclosure of information, pecuniary interests, etc. This matter was not discussed with traditional leaders at all.

Nowhere in the Act is mention made of the recognition of traditional authorities being expressed. It would appear that the status of traditional leaders is equated to that of councillors. A traditional leader’s status in African custom, and even by Western standards, cannot rank equal to that of his subordinate.

The Act does not address the matter of disparities between urban and rural infrastructure, and how the integration of the administration of these diametrically opposed segments can be effectively maintained. During the past five years, the effectiveness and practicality of the structure of rural councils have been merely symbolic as they did not command any semblance of authority or financial muscle to satisfy the basic needs and requirements of the residents of rural communities.

There is no evidence in the Bill of significant structural changes being enlisted to transform the present pathetic and gloomy financial outlook and image of rural communities. There is no point or reason why, on our soil, African customs and traditions should be seen to be at war with the demands of new democratic governance. We need to follow a constitutional arrangement which combines both traditional leaders and elected local government councillors to build and develop rural communities.

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, the concept of wall-to- wall municipalities has been around since 1994, but has yet to be perfected and presented in an acceptable form to the populace. The patchwork being done on this Act clearly gives the impression that it was not well thought through to start with.

The fact that the representation of the dikgosi in each district council municipality is being raised to 20% indicates that this is one level of leadership that was taken for granted at the beginning. Their participation as ex officio members is still insufficient. Members of any council should have the right to vote, and not only sit without decisive votes.

The Bill comes across as unfortunate because it will assist in marginalising traditional leadership, something which will make service delivery and sustainable development in their areas difficult to achieve.

The continued delay in the tabling of the proposed property rates Bill spells uncertainty for the people. The electorate is being forced to buy a pig in a poke by rushing into the elections and, later Government will come up with a shocking surprise in the form of the piece of legislation on property rates when the system will have been entrenched and that will be a point of no return.

Realising that a newly established municipality will supersede the existing ones is welcome and acceptable. [Time expired.]

Mfh M C LOBE: Mohlomphehi Motsamaisi wa mosebetsi, ke batla ho nka motsotso ona bakeng sa ho lokisa ditho tse ntseng di bua, haholo-holo ba mokga o ka sehlohong wa kganyetso, tse bontshang ho hloka kutlwisiso ya hore na bothata bo tjametseng mebuso ya selehae ke bofe.

Mohlomphehi Mmusisi mona, o sa ile a bolela dinthonyana tse mmalwa tseo a hopolang hore di tla etsa hore ho be thata bakeng sa hore re tswellise pele leano lena la rona la ho ntlafatsa maphelo a batho, mme o bolela hore dintho tsena tseo re buang ka tsona di bitsa tjhelete e ngata haholo mme bommasepala ba keke ba kgona hore ba di phethise. Jwale ke batla ho re ho mohlomphehi mona, ka mehla, rona ba mokga wa ANC, ha re leka ho ntlafatsa maphelo a batho, batho ba tshwanang le yena, majelathoko, ba re jwetsa hore dintho tseo re batlang ho di etsa di bitsa tjhelete e ngata mme ha di kgone ho etsahala. Ke batla hore ke mo tsebise hore ntshetsopele ya maphelo a batho ha ho na hore re ka e tlohela hobane yena a nahana hore e bitsa tjhelete e ngata haholo. Re e etsa re tseba hantle hore e bitsa tjhelete e ngata.

Empa, hore ke mo etsetse bobebe, hobane ke a bona hore o tshwere bothata mono, ke tla sebedisa puo ya hae. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows)

[Ms M C LOBE: Chairperson, I want to take this opportunity to correct what has been said by some of the previous speakers, especially those from the main opposition party, who showed a lack of understanding of the problem facing local government.

The previous speaker referred to a number of things which he felt would make it difficult for us to promote our programme to improve the lives of our people, and he said that the issues which we are discussing would cost a lot of money and, therefore, the municipalities would not be able to implement them.

Now I want to say to the hon member here that every time we, from the ANC, try to improve the lives of our people, people like him, rebels, keep telling us that it will cost a lot of money and it will not be possible to implement it. I want to inform him that there is no way we are going to stop improving the lives of our people simply because he feels that it is too expensive. We do it with full knowledge of the cost implications.

So, in order to make things easier for him, because I can see that he is experiencing difficulties here, I will speak his language.]

Local government has been given a new constitutional mandate to create and sustain humane, equitable and viable human settlements. This developmental mandate requires fundamental transformation of both the political and the administrative system and structures of municipalities.

The White Paper on Local Government provides a framework in terms of which radical transformation of the existing municipalities will take place. As part of this process, Parliament passed two major Acts on local government in 1998, that is, the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act, and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. Today, we are dealing with a very critical piece of legislation - the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill.

These pieces of legislation form part of a comprehensive plan to provide for structural and institutional transformation of local government on its path to viability, delivery and good governance. This Bill provides for a transitional arrangement - which I think the hon member does not understand

• which ends two years from the date of the forthcoming local government elections. Amongst other things, this includes the naming of the new municipalities. Clause 14 of this Bill is redesigned to accommodate the disestablishment of the existing municipalities and the establishment of the new municipalities in terms of section 12 of the Act.

A number of concerns have been raised by numerous people on the issue of traditional leadership. I think it is very important to know that, with these amendments, we are giving a 100% increment in the representation of traditional leadership, because it is our belief that there is no reason why African customs and traditions should be seen as being in conflict with the demands of modern governance.

The co-operative model proposed here provides a constructive role for traditional leadership at local level, and in the governance and development of rural communities. I hope Ntate Mtirara is listening. A municipality has powers and functions assigned to it in terms of the Constitution. These powers and functions should be exercised in a way that has maximum impact on the social development of communities, in particular, in meeting the basic needs of the poor majority, such as Africans and women.

These powers and functions should be divided, in the case of category C and B municipalities, within an area of the district municipality. Section 84(1) is therefore aligned with sections 156 and 229 of the Constitution and other related regulations within the system of intergovernmental relations.

We also propose that section 84 of the Act be amended to allow the Minister, after consultation with key stakeholders, to authorise a local municipality to perform a function or exercise a power which has been allocated to the district council due to capacity-related considerations. This, however, does not negate the vital role that district municipalities should play to integrate their areas. The district is the most central level of local government in ensuring that services and local government resources are redistributed equitably across all the municipalities in a particular district.

In conclusion, the future developmental local government must play a central role in representing communities, protecting human rights and meeting basic needs. It must focus its efforts and resources on improving the quality of life of our communities, especially historically disadvantaged groups. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, before I call the Minister, take note that we are dealing with matters municipal this afternoon, and between one municipality and others there are demarcation lines. Such lines are also to be found in this House, where hon members may have many conferences with those who are immediate neighbours, but not across boundary lines. All those members who are having conferences outside boundary lines must please confine themselves to the demarcated boundary. [Laughter.]

Mrs S A SEATON: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Does that mean that I cannot have a conference across the way here?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes. These are very strict demarcations: Neither across nor behind. It is only a limited degree of horizontal conferencing that may take place. Anything outside that will not be permissible. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank all those who participated in this debate, especially those who spoke in favour of the Bill.

Local government elections are around the corner. We cannot be sitting here in this House indulging in discussions about rumours on who is going to be deployed where. The hon member who showed a passion to discuss rumours did say that she once served in the Durban council. I hope that her being here has increased the prospect of improved local governance in Durban.

Those who oppose what they call megacities which have the prospect of taking government away from the people cannot expect us to join them in perpetuating the legacy of divided cities which condemned the black majority to residential areas cut off from the revenue base which the majority of our black people helped generate. We do not see how this can be said to be a recipe for worsening the financial problems currently faced by municipalities. In short I am saying: We will not join hon members who think in this way in advocating policies which are appropriate for times we no longer live in.

I also want to place on record - given the time constraints, I am not intent on debating all the issues raised about the ongoing matter of traditional leaders and local governance - the fact that another meeting between traditional leaders and Government is scheduled for 26 September this year. So there is also no need for us to use this House as a dress rehearsal for that meeting. We will meet at the meeting on 26 September. Once more, thank you to everybody who participated in this debate. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time (Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).

CHALLENGE FACING GOVERNMENT IN EFFECTIVELY UTILISING STATE AND NATIONAL RESOURCES TO ALLEVIATE POVERTY

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Mr K MOONSAMY: Chairperson and hon members, this is a very timeous debate because half of the world’s population lives in grinding poverty. Poverty is degrading and humiliating to any human being. It is also a poor reflection on society itself because no one wants to be a beggar.

The destructive nature of poverty defies any adequate definition and measurement of poverty itself. Poverty is characterised by low incomes and a poor standard of living reflected in inadequate access to nutrition, health, water, sanitation, housing, education, culture, a clean environment, communication, technology, sports, transport, jobs, land and finance.

Scientists struggle to define it. Serious scientists try to define it on the basis of arbitrary assumptions, such as those who earn less than US$ 2 a day''. Poets may define it asthe squalor of the soul’’. While different professions may disagree on its definitions, human beings all over the world should agree on the need for the eradication of poverty. This is a challenge facing not only the Government, but also the corporate sector and organs of civil society.

It is well known that we inherited from apartheid enormous problems of poverty and inequality. These were perhaps summed up by the fact that our country ranked 39 places lower on the UN human development index in 1994 than it would have been on the basis of income per capita. By contrast Cuba was ranked several places higher. Our democratic Government has accepted responsibility to effectively use state and national resources to eliminate the source of poverty.

We are having to do this in the context of the process known as globalisation. Whatever benefits the technological developments of ICT potentially hold out for poor people in developing countries, none can deny that its record to date is one of widening differentials between and within countries, with many poor communities threatened with marginalisation.

The G7 countries control 72% of world GDP, while South Africa’s share of world GDP is less than half a percent. Globalisation has accordingly been thus far associated with growing inequalities within and between countries.

Ten years ago, the world had 147 US-dollar billionaires, five years ago there were 274, and today there are 447. These 447 billionaires have a combined wealth greater than the annual income of half the world’s population. Fifty-one of the 100 largest economies in the world are now transnational corporations, rather than countries. This, I think, is a naked plunder and robbery by the TNC - transnational corporations - of mainly the Third World economies.

Today in South Africa, 46% of our population remains rural, 52% are women and 34% are children under the age of 14 years. The social inventory of poverty is horrendous in a 21st century South Africa, which has the most vibrant economy in Africa. Of the total 9 million households in South Africa, 5 million have pit, bucket or no latrines and 3 million have no refuse removal facilities. About 47% of our population still use wood, coal and paraffin as sources of energy for cooking, heating and lighting. This is a clear indication that poverty, by its very nature, defies definition and measurement.

The first interrelated priorities are job retention and job creation as a means to create and redistribute wealth through the wage system. There is a need for Government, while adopting appropriate fiscal and monetary measures, to stimulate the economy to achieve these priorities in the short term.

The provision of basic health care is a fundamental right and includes free primary health care such as immunisation, prevention of diseases, maternity and child care, youth health care services, family planning and oral hygiene. In terms of its drugs policy, Government is committed to making available essential drugs of good quality, safety and efficacy to all South Africans.

Since more than 70% of the poor live in rural areas, the Government utilises clinics, community health care centres and local governments to distribute its health care services. An essential part of this distribution network is foreign doctors, for example, Cuban doctors, in the rural areas of our nine provinces.

By 1999 the Government had built 474 clinics, upgraded 212 clinics and had 99 313 beds in public hospitals. As there are pressures on these public facilities, these facilities need to be increased and made accessible to people who have historically been deprived of them. There is spare capacity in South Africa’s 357 private hospitals, and I call on their owners to make facilities more accessible to the poor and the hungry.

The Government needs to continue its allocation of resources to fight preventable diseases such as malaria, TB, HIV/Aids, STDs and preventable deaths such as infant mortality. In this regard, we should note that the scourge of malaria was eradicated in Europe after World War II by using DDT. We need to revisit our stance on this issue. Currently, there are 35 000 households directly exposed to the risk of malaria. Needless to say, they are the rural poor in KwaZulu-Natal, the Northern Province and Mpumalanga - three of our poorest provinces.

Another preventable scourge which needs eradication is TB, which has been with us for the past 200 years. Its spread follows the pattern of mining, industrialisation and urbanisation. It is rooted in poverty and has an annual growth of 20%. Its treatment is complicated by Aids and the failure to cure it at the first attempt. About one third of 103 000 TB patients are linked to HIV. About R500 million was spent in 1996 in fighting this scourge and an eight-person national team was set up together with nine provincial co-ordinators. Treatment at all public hospitals and clinics is free of charge.

The mother of all scourges which this nation, Africa and the world is facing is HIV/Aids. In our country there are more than 3,2 million people infected by this scourge and daily there is an increase of 1 500. About 50% of the sufferers are between the ages of 15 and 24. Business, media, trade unions and all civil society organs need to join Government in this fight. While we acknowledge that HIV is the basic cause of Aids, we also need to acknowledge that environmental factors such as poverty and preventable diseases exacerbate the development of HIV, resulting in full-blown Aids.

The Government needs to allocate more resources to fighting child mortality, pregnancy, related deaths, violence against women, birth defects, polio, measles, chronic diseases, disabilities, leprosy, occupational health hazards and problems of mental health. The most vulnerable group in our nation are the children. There are about 9 million children below the age of nine years. About 23% of our children are stunted, and 5,5% are abnormally underweight, which is symptomatic of malnutrition. The Government’s integrated nutrition programme is therefore appropriate. Its national nutrition and social development programme, the protein energy nutrition scheme and the primary school nutrition programme are meant to overcome malnutrition.

This nation cannot transform itself without addressing the problems related to the poverty of the mind. Educating the nation is embedded in the twin priorities of job retention and job creation. It is critical to creating self-reliance and resourcefulness. There are about 32 000 schools with pupil enrolment figures reaching 12 million learners and there are approximately 360 000 educators. At a physical level, there are shortages of classrooms, and of maths, science, design and technology educators. About a quarter of these schools do not have a proper supply of drinking water and about one third of them are in a state of decay.

In this regard, our Government is taking vigorous steps in eradicating the legacy of the past. As a part of this process, the Department of Education has embarked on a campaign which is called ``Culture of Learning and Teaching Science’’. We should allocate more resources to early childhood education in which the foundations for mathematicians, scientists, designers and technologists are laid.

Cognitive education theories, strategies and instructional models need to be developed further and implemented. The support of various newspapers, the SABC, businesses such as Iscor and Liberty Life and nongovernmental organisations are invaluable. More nongovernmental organisation involvement is encouraged. In order to achieve equity, 60% of nonpersonnel and noncapital resources are allocated to the poorest 40% of schools. There are now new national norms and standards for school funding.

Sectoral education and training authorities are now emerging as a new force in education and training. Through the Skills Development Act they will access levies of about R1,2 billion this year and utilise them to achieve national skills strategy targets of a labour force which is 80% black, 54% women and 4% disabled. These levies are raised from the private sector’s wage and salary bills, and not from our national budget.

As part of a basic necessity, the Government is committed to overcoming the housing backlog. Between 1994 and 1998 the Government spent R9,3 billion on housing. The provisions of the Housing Act and the Rental Housing Act are being effectively used to address this problem.

I touched on only a few items on the long inventory of poverty merely as an illustration of the mammoth historical challenge to eradicate poverty. I might also add that to crush poverty and eradicate it is a herculean task, and for such a task we need herculean people. [Applause.]

Mrs P W CUPIDO: Mr Chairperson, South Africa is facing the biggest challenge ever in utilising the state and national resources to alleviate the poverty of millions of its people, to substantially reduce unemployment and to uplift the standard of living of all. Failure to alleviate poverty will result in disastrous consequences for our very fragile democracy.

South Africa’s economy is characterised by a dichotomy. On the one hand, sustained monetary and fiscal discipline has resulted in some of the economic fundamentals being in place, and on the other hand, poverty and unemployment have continued to increase.

South Africa has to increase its growth rate to 6% per year if unemployment is to be substantially reduced. The challenge for this Government is to look at the deficiencies in our economy which inhibit our ability to achieve a 6% growth rate and to improve our domestic and foreign fixed investment.

We do not have much more room for destructive social spending. We have to become smart spenders and target our poverty relief expenditure. It was a total disgrace earlier this year to discover that the Government had been unable to spend over R500 million allocated for poverty relief. This means that the Government suffers from maladministration as well as major corruption.

There is also an alarming lack of confidence in the Department of Welfare, which is a key role-player in the poverty relief programme. The turnover of directors-general and Ministers in strategic portfolios breeds despair and hampers investment confidence.

Furthermore, no country was ever created rich. Few have succeeded in having wealth thrust upon them. Many have tried, but most succeed in dissipating capital flows faster than it can be received. Let us look at the following example. Africa has received more capital in the form of aid and small investment over the last 60 years than ever before. What result did these donations have? It resulted in a loss of agricultural self-sufficiency and a general increase in poverty in many of the recipient countries, of which South Africa, luckily, was not one. [Interjections.]

This shows that, when countries rely on donor funds instead of tax revenues, they tend to act irresponsibly towards the needs and conditions of their own citizens, especially the poorest of the poor. This Government must therefore aim to achieve greater fixed investment and job-creating growth, and specifically focus on the reduction of personal income so that people have more disposable income and are able to save.

Incentives need to be granted to encourage people to save. The DP therefore proposes that the first R12 000 or 10% of an individual’s taxable income, whichever is the greatest, be tax free and that donations tax and estate duty be abolished. The DP further proposes a sincere gesture by the state to assist the millions of poverty-stricken people. This proposal is as follows: That a basic subsistence grant be paid to every person with an income of R7 000 per year or less, the income tax system be used to make it uneconomical for people who do not qualify to apply, there be a maximum of R400 per month for any one family, the cost be financed by a 1% increase in VAT, and the scheme come into operation after allowing six months for people to register. No person who qualifies for any other state pension or grant would be eligible for the basic subsistence grant.

The six-month period would be used to register applicants and to get an indication of how many people would be on the scheme, so that the monthly amount could be determined. I suggest that an amount of not less than R100 per month per person is affordable. It is, however, important that this grant, which is essentially survival assistance, be administered as cheaply as possible and not be a deterrent to obtaining employment. This supplementary income will give people some assistance in feeding their families on a daily basis.

We cannot be satisfied with growth rates of 3% to 4%, because that will simply cause unemployment and poverty to increase. We must be determined to ensure that our economy grows at 6% or more per year on a sustainable basis. For that to happen, the key areas identified in these proposals must be addressed.

In attacking poverty we must ensure that we address opportunity, empowerment and security, as contained in the World Bank’s World Development Report 2000-2001. The report recommends that the governments of developing countries at all levels, donor countries, international agencies, NGOs, civil society and local communities mobilise behind these three priority areas.

Regarding opportunity, economic opportunities for poor people should be expanded by stimulating economic growth, making markets work better for poor people and working for their inclusion, particularly by building up their assets such as land and education. Regarding empowerment, the ability of poor people to shape decisions that affect their lives should be strengthened and discrimination based on gender, race, ethnicity and social status should be removed.

Regarding security, we should reduce poor people’s vulnerability to sickness, economic shocks, crop failure, unemployment, natural disasters and violence and help them to cope …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mrs P W CUPIDO: … when such misfortunes are felt. [Interjections.]

Mr N S MIDDLETON: Chairman and hon members, it is an undisputed fact that a large section of our South African population suffers every day under the scourge of abject poverty. No one can argue or dispute that South Africa’s poorest of the poor are in that situation due to the historic and institutionalised racial discrimination and neglect of the past. [Interjections.]

We have no doubts about what South Africa’s number one priority should be. It should be the immediate, comprehensive and sustained alleviation of poverty. Some might say that we have other priorities on which we should concentrate, such as fighting crime and the spread of Aids, as well as addressing other social and economic ills. These matters are, indeed, priorities, but we have to recognise the fact that the causes of all these are related to poverty and the incidence of crime. Poverty provides a tremendous and fertile breeding ground for these problems in our society. Yes, there will still be crime. We will still have Aids and unemployment when poverty has been eradicated, but there will be so much less of it. We simply have to make poverty our public enemy number one. This is where the real challenges lie.

In turning more specifically to the matter being discussed here today, the challenge of eradicating poverty is not and should not be limited to the Government only. Yes, the Government is vitally important when it comes to deciding the appropriate policies to deal with poverty, the proper allocation of resources and in implementing successful programmes on the ground. That is not in dispute. However, the challenge to eradicate poverty belongs to all South Africans, all political parties in this House, all institutions of state, organisations, individuals and civil society. Even the business sector and the poorest of the poor must help in this regard. We have to develop a collective acceptance of the need to fight poverty and we have to collectively pull together, as one, to realise our ultimate objective which is to eradicate poverty in the shortest possible time and to ensure life and dignity for all people.

What can the Government do to effectively use our national resources in the alleviation of poverty? Firstly, I would like to suggest that it must allocate the bulk of available resources to where it is needed most at this time - in the communities that were marginalised and neglected by apartheid. Secondly, it must ensure that the allocated resources are actually spent. To hear, for instance, that there are hundreds of millions of rands that were not spent on welfare services is an indictment against the ability of the Government to fight poverty. It is an indictment against the commitment and ability of Public Service officials to manage and successfully implement service delivery programmes and to assist the poor.

It must implement drastic measures to assist the poor, such as further zero rating of VAT on basic foodstuffs and sources of household energy like paraffin. It must make full use of the limitless opportunities afforded the so-called new world economy. In order for our economy to grow, it must embrace the opportunities inherent in increased competitiveness.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, please take your seats. You may continue, hon member. [Laughter.]

Mr N S MIDDLETON: It must recognise that no government will be able to eradicate poverty on its own. It must accept that success will only be achieved in partnership with the people of South Africa. What all South Africans do …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mr N S MIDDLETON: Chairperson, may I, under section 15 of the Rules, be allowed … The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Unfortunately, no.

Mr J DURAND: Chairperson, after five years as Minister in charge of privatisation, Stella Sigcau failed to deliver and had to make way for Minister Jeff Radebe. [Interjections.] Everyone thought that a practical President Mbeki and an effective Jeff Radebe would be able to do a good job. Mr Radebe made the right noises and we all thought he would jolt the privatisation of state assets out of its slumber.

South Africa is burdened with a collection of state enterprises on an almost communistic scale. They cost the taxpayer billions and they do not deliver effectively, and they provide services at extortionate prices. Whether the ANC-led Government is serious about privatisation is not clear. Our current budget assumes revenues of R4 billion in public companies and R120 billion in state-owned property. We need much more to address the plight of the poor.

There are many obstacles. Most public firms are in a mess, over-staffed and in deep debt. Transnet is over-staffed by 27 000 jobs and Telkom needs to lose 1 000 jobs. In a country with an unemployment rate of over 30%, we understand Government’s reluctance. Over 1 million jobs have been lost since the ANC came into power, and the number will increase unless the ANC changes its policies and its way of dealing with the unions. Most union leaders oppose privatisation on principle. When the Government offered them preferential access to shares in privatised firms in the hope of breaking down their resolve, they took the bait but failed to come up with the cash.

Privatisation of state assets will do the following. It will raise money for infrastructure and services in critical areas such as crime prevention, welfare, health and education - all areas where this Government is failing dismally. It will bring in foreign exchange and expertise. Foreign direct investments mean jobs, training and international markets at our disposal. The markets that multinationals have captured become accessible at no extra cost, provided we allow them to buy in.

The ANC-Communist Party-led Government has conflicting aims. [Interjections.] It wants money but it also wants to use public firms and state assets to capture votes. It wants to use privatisation as a means of black empowerment. The bulk of the shares of Transnet, for instance, must go to black investors. That may mean they sell for much less than at a public auction. Who will benefit? Who will benefit by this? A small slice of the black elite who are ANC-aligned and who have already largely overcome the results of past discrimination. The masses, the really poor - most of whom are black - will lose in two ways. Firstly, they receive worse services - black-owned firms can charge higher prices and still win Government contracts. Secondly, less money for the state means less houses, less schools, fewer water pipes, no medicine at hospitals, less clinics and much, much more taxes.

We need funds for education. In the past blacks were deprived of a decent education. [Interjections.] The first five years of ANC rule has done little to improve the situation. [Interjections.] South African schools are in a mess after Bengu’s term and are lacking textbooks, classrooms and discipline. [Interjections.] Although Minister Asmal is trying to knock them into shape, the results might only be seen on the marketplace after many years.

Ons is geseën met ‘n ryk natuurlike erfenis. Toeriste vloei jaarliks na ons land om die pragtige plant- en dierlewe te aanskou. Die miljarde aan buitelandse valuta [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[We have been blessed with a rich natural heritage. Tourists flock to our country annually to view the beautiful flora and fauna. The billions in foreign exchange … [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members! Yes, hon Mbulawa- Hans?

Dr B G MBULAWA-HANS: Chairperson, I would just like to know, because the member is talking about previous education, whether …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, are you rising on a point of order?

Dr B G MBULAWA-HANS: Chairperson, I just wantd to find out if …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, answer my question. Are you rising on a point of order?

Dr B G MBULAWA-HANS: My point of order is to ask whether the hon member has …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member you may not use a point of order to ask a question. I therefore ask you again: Are you rising on a point of order?

Dr B G MBULAWA-HANS: No, not a point of order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you then, hon member. [Laughter.] You may continue, hon Durand.

Mr J DURAND: Thank you, Chair. South African schools are in a mess after Bengu’s term, and are lacking textbooks … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member, did you say: ``Bengu’s term’’?

Mr J DURAND: Yes, sir.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I think it would be preferable if you said: ``Minister Bengu’’ to show respect to the Minister. Thank you.

Mr J DURAND: Chairperson, I am sorry, I will do so. I withdraw, and I will say again that South African schools are in a mess after Minister Bengu’s term as Minister of Education. [Interjections.] Our schools lack textbooks, classrooms and discipline. [Interjections.] Although Minister Asmal is trying to knock them into shape, the results might only be seen on the marketplace after many years.

Ons is geseën met ‘n ryk natuurlike … [We have been blessed with a rich natural …]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr T M GONIWE: Chairperson, I would like to ask if the member will take a question.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, do you want to take a question?

Mr J DURAND: Chairperson, at my office tomorrow morning. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you. Hon member, you may sit down.

Mnr J DURAND: Ons is geseën met ‘n ryk natuurlike erfenis. [Tussenwerpsels.] Toeriste vloei jaarliks na ons land om die pragtige plant- en dierlewe te aanskou. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die biljarde aan buitelandse valuta wat 2006 se Wêreldtoernooi om die Sokkerbeker sou bring hoef nie verlore te wees nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] As toerisme met dieselfde energie, geesdrif en rande bemark sou word wat aan die wêreldbekerbod bestee is, kan Suid-Afrika meer as vergoed vir dié toernooi.

Satoer se bemarkingsveldtog het vanjaar in ses lande afgeskop. Daar was ongelukkige tydsberekening met die Zimbabwe krisis en die vloede, en die feit dat daar weinig koördinering by die buitelandse reisbedryf was. In Brittanje, Suid-Afrika se belangrikste buitelandse mark, is reisagente nie ingelig nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Reisagente en Satoer personeel kon nie die navrae na aanleiding van die advertensies hanteer nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Geen reispakkette is beplan om saam met die veldtog te val nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die Wêreldraad vir Reis en Toerisme voorsien dat toerisme binne die medium termyn 1,6 miljoen ekstra werkgeleenthede kan skep. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit sal die meer as 1 miljoen werkers wat onder ANC-bewind hulle werk verloor het, help. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J DURAND: We have been blessed with a rich natural heritage. [Interjections.] Tourists flock to our country annually to view the beautiful flora and fauna. [Interjections.] The billions in foreign exchange which the 2006 Soccer World Cup tournament would have brought in need not be lost. [Interjections.] If tourism were to be marketed with the same energy, enthusiasm and money as was invested in the world cup bid, South Africa could more than make up for that tournament.

This year Satour’s marketing campaign kicked off in six countries. There was unfortunate timing with the Zimbabwean crisis and the floods, and the fact that there was little co-ordination in the foreign tourist industry. In Britain, South Africa’s most important foreign market, the travel agents were not informed. [Interjections.] Travel agents and Satour staff were unable to handle the enquiries prompted by the advertisements. [Interjections.] No travel packages had been planned to coincide with the campaign. [Interjections.]

The World Travel and Tourism Council foresees that in the medium term tourism can create 1,6 million extra job opportunities. [Interjections.] This will assist the more than 1 million workers who have lost their jobs under ANC rule. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Miss M N MAGAZI: Chairperson, hon members, poor black women, especially those in the rural areas, feel the legacy of apartheid neglect the deepest. In a rural village of about 100 people, at least 53% of households do not have enough money to buy the minimum amount of food, clothing and fuel necessary for their survival.

Poverty is not equally spread among men and women. In fact, almost half of all South African women live below the poverty line, compared to 44% of men. This situation is not only a legacy of apartheid, it is also the result of poor relations between men and women, which more often than not reduce women to second-class citizens.

The lack of power that women experience in their own homes is then translated into a lack of power when it comes to reducing poverty. Not only are women lagging behind in training opportunities, they are also systematically denied access to capital, land and markets. When we try to address poverty we cannot look at it as low income levels only, but also as the result of a complex set of political and social interactions. Poverty targeting must therefore be an integrated, coherent project.

I have no doubt that our Government has put the eradication of poverty and the development of all its people at the heart of its programmes. We must recognise these efforts, given the background of an economy severely hampered by the results of apartheid legislation and underdevelopment. I need to look, however, at how women especially are targeted through our interventions.

Poverty amongst women often means limited power to make choices concerning their own health and that of their children. In the light of this reality, the importance of measures such as the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act, cannot be overemphasised. What becomes critical then, is to ensure that we provide access to safe termination for all women, as choice about family size is intrinsically linked to the quality of life we create for our children and their children.

This may require us to appeal once more to medical personnel not to frustrate women’s right to choose a safe termination of pregnancy. This is especially important where the women are reliant on public medical services and cannot afford to make use of private clinics for such services.

Another aspect of poverty in terms of which women are still being disadvantaged is the issue of land. The apartheid system took land away from the African masses and the process of returning land to those who have been dispossessed for decades is progressing slowly. Without access to land, rural women, who may have gained farming skills, still have great difficulty escaping the poverty trap.

Giving women access to land must be part of our integrated rural development strategy, as must training programmes and access to credit. In fact, linking access to land and credit has made it possible for a group of women in the Piketberg area, for example, to start a commercially viable business exporting their farm produce. But now I am telling hon members about a project fairly near the urban centre of Cape Town. We must, in our development programmes, also ensure that there is a clear bias towards women in the deep rural areas. Those areas are underdeveloped and underserviced, where poverty is felt the most.

Let me turn to an issue that has been in the press very often in the past few months: the issue of HIV/Aids. Black women are the most vulnerable to Aids and the devastating consequences it has on whole families and communities. In fact, prevalence is highest amongst women in the 20 to 24 years age group and amongst teenage girls.

Studies also reveal a racial difference in the prevalence of HIV, with prevalence highest among black women and men. Again, this relates to women’s power in their families and communities. And so, when we address the eradication of this scourge, we must take cognisance of the links between the disempowerment of women, poverty and disease. The President stated very clearly yesterday that the problem of HIV/Aids is exacerbated by poverty and that we would require a multipronged approach to fight it, apart from our approaches of prevention in which we have to focus on the most vulnerable - women. We must also focus on other levels of empowerment to ensure that women are heard when they make their choices.

Other speakers today have referred specifically to economic aspects of poverty. However, it will have to become clear to all of us that poverty is about more than unemployment or low income. Reducing poverty means transforming the way we think about everything we do as Government, from the way we budget to the way we listen to women in the poorest of the rural villages. Reducing poverty has to go hand-in-hand with distribution of land and wealth. This means also that when we commit ourselves in any Government institution to transformation and to the empowerment of women, we commit ourselves to making sure that the budgets we produce are gendered and targeted specifically to poor women and children.

We must make sure that the political language of our development strategies speaks to, for and about women. This approach must filter down to the developmental level closest to the poor women, and that is their local authority. It is therefore encouraging to see the efforts of Government to formulate coherent local antipoverty strategies from the perspective and capacities of local government.

Local economic development is essentially about generating economic growth that is sustainable and rooted in the local economy. Thus it is argued that local economic development can fulfil an important antipoverty function. The level of local government makes it ideally suited to possess an intimate understanding of who in the locality is poor, why these identified groups are poor, where the poor are located, movement and mobility patterns, the viable sources of survival and the sources of information and influence within communities.

As we approach the local government election it is important to ensure that we elect councillors who really have transformation at heart and councillors who have the interest of poor women at heart. In this way we will ensure that the local communities are empowered to a level where they play a meaningful part in decisions about their own lives and livelihood. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COUMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I think you owe the speakers at the podium the courtesy to listen to their contributions. I have been trying to catch the attention of some people, but I think I have been failing. So if you could give the speakers at the podium the opportunity to make their point, I would be grateful.

Mr M E MABETA: Chairperson, I take this opportunity to commend the hon member who proposed this motion for inviting discussion that focuses on the burning question of addressing the needs of the historically marginalised section of our population. However, I must hasten to point out that Mrs Cupido’s thesis that the poor can be helped through hand-outs of portions determined by the rich is not going to help anybody. I am sure Mr Durand will agree with me on this.

I want to say to the hon Middleton that, yes, I agree as a Christian that a partnership is very important. But a partnership that leaves total control over one’s life and what one owns to someone else, and where one enters into a partnership with nothing, is not going to help anybody either.

The Reconstruction and Development Programme was designed in recognition of a colonial apartheid legacy which had distorted our sociopolitical relations, in such a way that all wealth and means of production are concentrated in the hands of a minority super racial-class, whilst relegating the majority to an impoverished state of servitude under the dominant caste.

This is the historical structural basis of poverty in South Africa which continues to be reproduced over and over again. The mission statement of the RDP envisaged the correction of that historical distortion and the reordering of the economic and social order along egalitarian lines that would see the eventual economic liberation of the disadvantaged sectors of our population. This is what 1994 was about.

We respectfully submit that our economic policy has erred in blindly embracing globalisation as a sacred cow whose dictates are sacrosanct and must therefore be given free rein. Voluntary acquiescence to globalisation decrees privatisation of state assets as one of its cardinal pillars. The argument is that a fully fledged market economy is the panacea for all our social and economic evils.

On the contrary, we know that reliance on the operation of market forces to correct historical imbalances is erroneous, because globalisation and its attendant privatisation strategies subsist on the perpetuation of global and national economic inequities and these, in South Africa, were not only introduced through economic legislation, but were accompanied by very cohesive and crude legal and military police control mechanisms. [Time expired.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, if one looks at South Africa’s problems, it seems as if we are caught in an endless cycle. Because of South Africa’s high unemployment rate, people without jobs are stuck in permanent poverty; because of poverty South Africa’s crime rate is as high as it is; because of our crime rate, we do not get the necessary foreign investment; because we do not get the necessary investment, South Africa has a high unemployment rate, and so we can continue. [Interjections.] Unemployment, poverty, crime, no investment - back to unemployment. How does one break the cycle? That is the question.

Dit kan gedoen word. Ander lande het daarin geslaag om dit te doen, en Suid- Afrika het nie ‘n keuse nie, ons moet ook daarin slaag om dit te doen. Dan moet ons egter vorentoe kyk en, anders as die opmerking wat van daardie kant af gekom het, nie altyd terugkyk en terugblameer nie.

As apartheid dan alles veroorsaak het, soos die bewering daar gemaak is, kan ‘n mens as teenvraag vra waarom daar dan soveel armoede in Afrika is. Dan kom die antwoord dat kolonialisme al Afrika se moeilikheid veroorsaak het. As kolonialisme dan die probleem in Afrika is, wat van Liberië? Liberië het nooit onder ‘n koloniale bewind gestaan nie. Dan is die antwoord dat dit uitbuiting deur Europa is. As uitbuiting deur Europa die probleem is, hoe is dit dan moontlik dat Zambië in die sestigerjare welvarender was as Suid-Korea, en vandag is Suid-Korea 28 keer ryker as Zambië?

So kan ek voort argumenteer op hierdie verlede-gerigte trant. Dit word ‘n urelange argument sonder dat ons by oplossings uitkom, en op die ou einde is ons almal saam in hierdie bootjie. As hy sink, sink ons almal saam, nie rykes en armes apart nie. Afrikaners gaan saam onder, want ons is deel van Afrika.

Hierdie konsepbesluit handel oor die Regering se uitdaging om armoede op te los. Natuurlik het regerings ‘n verantwoordelikheid, maar ek is bekommerd dat ons die klem te sterk op die Regering plaas en van die Regering goed verwag wat ‘n regering nie kan doen nie, wat nie binne sy vermoë is nie.

Regerings kan nie welvaart skep nie. Hulle kan en moet omstandighede skep waarbinne die private sektor die werkgeleenthede kan skep. So word daar welvaart geskep en dan kan ‘n mens armoede begin verlig. Natuurlik het regerings ‘n taak ten opsigte hiervan, en daar is verskillende maniere om dit te doen, maar aan die einde van die dag op die lang termyn is dit die enigste manier.(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It can be done. Other countries have managed to do it and South Africa does not have a choice, we must also manage to do it. But then we must look forward and, in contrast with the comment from that side, not always look back and level accusations about the past.

If apartheid caused everything, as was alleged, one can then ask in response to that why there is so much poverty in Africa. The answer then is that colonialism caused all of Africa’s problems. If colonialism is the problem in Africa, what about Liberia? Liberia was never under colonial rule. The answer then is that it was exploitation by Europe. If exploitation by Europe was the problem, how is it possible that in the sixties Zambia was more prosperous than South Korea, and today South Korea is 28 times more prosperous than Zambia?

I can continue in this manner by constantly referring to the past. It becomes a lengthy argument without our reaching any solutions and in the end we are all together in the same boat. If it sinks, we all sink together, not rich people and poor people separately. Afrikaners will also go under, because we are part of Africa.

This draft resolution deals with the Government’s challenge to solve the problem of poverty. Of course governments have a responsibility, but I am concerned that we are placing too much emphasis on this and are expecting the Government to do things which it cannot do, which do not fall within its capabilities.

Governments cannot generate wealth. They can and must create conditions in which the private sector can create job opportunities. In this way wealth is generated and then one can start alleviating poverty. Of course governments have a duty in this regard and there are different ways to do this, but in the long term this is the only way to do this.]

At the ministerial conference on security, stability, development and co- operation in Africa on 8 and 9 May this year in Abuja, Nigeria, 11 general principles were accepted. Principle eight reads, and I quote:

Democracy, good governance, respect for human and people’s rights and the rule of law are prerequisites for security, stability and development of the continent.

Democracy and good governance are seen as prerequisites for development. It sounds strange maybe that we talk about democracy again in this sense of the word, but hon members can go out in the world and check where there is prosperity and where not.

In die afgelope eeu het daar geen groot hongersnode plaasgevind in lande waar daar demokrasie is nie. Ek het gister na Indië verwys, wat ‘n demokrasie met heelwat beperkings het. Agb lede sal opmerk Indië het geen hongersnood gehad nadat hy in 1947 onafhanklik geword het nie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[In the last century no major famine occurred in countries in which there was a democracy. Yesterday I referred to India, which has a democracy with quite a number of limitations. Hon members will notice that India has had no famine since it became independent in 1947. [Time expired.]]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Mr Chairman, our country has immense wealth. Almost every kind of mineral is found here - chrome, uranium, platinum, gold and diamonds - and it is blessed with an ideal climate - temperate, tropical and Mediterranean. Almost every agricultural product can be grown in our country.

An American Senator, Jesse Helms, once commented on the riches of our country. Among other things he said:

South Africa is the source of over 80% of America’s mineral supply and 86% of platinum resources. South Africa has 90% of the world’s chrome reserves. Without South Africa’s chrome, no engines for modern jet aircraft, cruise missiles or armaments could be built, the United States Air Force could be grounded, surgical equipment and utensils could not be produced, and our hospitals and doctors would be helpless.

The paradox is that, rich as our country is, its owners are the poorest in the world. Africans are victims of poverty, disease, ignorance and atrocious living conditions.

A Nedlac report released in October last year revealed that 60% of African households live in abject poverty, compared with less than 5% of white households. Africans have the highest percentage of households with no access to basic amenities such as water, houses, sanitation and electricity. Ninety-seven per cent of white households have access to safe piped water, compared to 47% of rural African households. Ninety-eight per cent of rural African households draw water from dams, rivers and streams, compared to 2% of all other groups.

Of course, as a result of poverty, to which Africans especially are exposed, there is high child mortality and short life expectancy among Africans. Five per cent of the people of this country are said to own 88% of the country’s wealth. Fifty thousand white farmers own 85% of the agricultural land. If this is not national suicide for the majority population, what is it? One thing is certain, and that is that this should not be allowed to continue.

Poverty dehumanises; poverty degrades; poverty is the mother of revolutions; and poverty must be eradicated. How must this be done? This country must adopt an economic system of sharing resources.

The colonial system of education which we have inherited is too academic. We must provide an education which teaches at least two technical subjects from Grade 7. This will enable students to acquire skills long before they pass matric. This will increase their chances of employment or self- employment. Examples of technical subjects that must be taught are plumbing, carpentry, electricity, computers and agriculture.

The inherited colonial education will sink us deeper in the quagmire of poverty and economic dependency. I must emphasise that it is technological economic power that determines the places of nations in the world. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr E SALOOJEE: Mr Chairperson, let us reflect. When democratic transformation occurred in our country, at what point were we then? We want to say that we inherited an economy that was devastated. We inherited a land that was deeply divided. And we are literally talking about millions.

There are members from the New NP who joined the DP, and the DP found it very comfortable to take them in. [Interjections.] Mr Durand comes from the New NP. [Interjections.] They want to completely ignore the fact that literally millions of people were devastated and had to live a life of misery, poverty, and a lack of education. Families were separated. [Interjections.]

Now … [Interjections] … this is the thing that we are saying: We will never let the New NP forget that because, today, we are living with the consequences of that. [Interjections.] Now, when I tell members … [Interjections.]

Gen C L VILJOEN: Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the speaker whether he will take a question.

Mr E SALOOJEE: No, I am not going to take a question.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, you may take your seat. Hon member, you may proceed.

Mr E SALOOJEE: Mr Chairperson, those members have to be reminded of the result of that legacy. Let us look at some figures. Sixty per cent of all black people in South Africa live in poverty, compared to only 2% of whites. Changing that is not going to happen overnight. [Interjections.] I want to say that this Government has made heroic efforts and dramatic results have been achieved. [Interjections.] I will give members evidence of … [Interjections] … black people living in rural areas.

This is what apartheid did. Sixty-four per cent of Black people living in rural areas have incomes which are too low to enable them to afford minimum necessities such as food, clothing and fuel. [Interjections.] Almost half of all women live below the poverty line, compared to 44% of men. This difference is even greater in the rural areas. Sixty-three out of every 100 women are poor, compared to 57 out of every 100 men. [Interjections.] This is the kind of existence and conditions … [Interjections] … under which those who were historically deprived and oppressed had to live.

How has this Government responded? This is information that members might be aware of but is something we must restate. The Government has acknowledged that poverty … [Interjections.] Yes, I will tell hon members where the ANC is now. The South African Government has, since 1994, placed poverty and inequality at the centre of its development agenda. [Interjections.] It has prioritised the lack of access to basic social services, particularly for the rural poor. [Applause.]

Since 1994, 4,5 million people have gained access to clean water. The DP knows it. [Applause.] They could never ever do that. This Government provided 700 000 houses while 200 000 units are under construction. [Applause.] This is undeniable, no matter what the opposition says. There are children, especially in the rural areas, who were condemned to growing up without an education. There is compulsory education for 10 years, and free medical care for expectant women and children under six years of age. [Interjections.]

What I am actually saying is that when one looks at some of these achievements, and if one takes the impact that this Government has made on the majority of our people into account, I would say that, in the history of our country, there has never been a government that has been able to improve the conditions of the vast majority of our people in the way this Government has done in the last six years. [Applause.] And, in real terms … [Interjections] … not only have they empowered them politically, but they have also provided them with all that.

On the one hand, elements on the left-hand side of the House have been harping on all the time about the poverty alleviation programmes of our Government. [Interjections.] First of all, they do not even inform themselves properly. They are irresponsibly and recklessly throwing out the figure of R500 million, and some would say R800 million. In actual fact it is R150 million that is being applied at the moment. [Interjections.]

When they left people under conditions in which they could not even establish organisations of their own, when they did not have the resources to take any kind of initiative at all, it is this Government that gathered the funds relating to NGO’ … [Interjections] … and that prepared the different provinces of our country and then our Ministers … [Interjections.] Wait! None of these hon members’ Ministers ever went to the rural areas and actually examined … [Interjections.]

Our Minister for Welfare and Population Development, over the past six weeks, has been on a voyage, interacting with organisations of civil society to see exactly what is happening to people there. Based on genuine information he has made arrangements that money must be channelled. A development agency has been put in place to empower people, so that the money that they receive can be applied and they are able to enhance the lives of our people. Those hon members did exactly the opposite. They intensified the misery and poverty of the majority of our people. [Interjections.] Even when it comes to jobs, some members on the left-hand side of the House pretend to be very sophisticated economists who understand the world economic order and all that. So they should know that we are operating under very difficult circumstances in spite of that.

Under white rule, in the last years, they were sinking. We have, at least, maintained a level of stability that they were never able to do in the years before the end of apartheid. We are accepted internationally in every country. We are able to succeed in developing trade relations which are beneficial to us. In spite of what those hon members say, we have been able to inspire investors from outside. We are no longer the polecat of the world. [Interjections.] People are coming here and we are interacting with the world. That is something. The hon member says ``concretely’’. These are the concrete achievements of our people.

Mr D V BLOEM: Ask them where Abe Williams is. [Interjections.]

Mr E SALOOJEE: So I say our Government is tirelessly engaged in developing a coherent and integrated strategy for the emancipation of our people from the throes of poverty - not only those in and near urban centres, but women, children and the elderly in the deep rural areas.

In this regard we believe that strengthening partnerships between government, the private sector, the NGOs and communities plays a vital role in making antipoverty initiatives work more effectively and more efficiently. This partnership of civil society and government was nonexistent. It is a novel idea. It is those of us who are committed to a genuine democracy who are, today, showing what can be done if people work together. There has to be a partnership between civil society and government if we are going to enrich the lives of our people.

We are actually succeeding. We welcome the participation of different sectors of the South African business world in development programmes. We urge them to commit themselves to multiyear relationships that will ensure sustainability and that a measurable impact can be achieved. For the first time there is more than a reasonable relationship between a government … [Interjections.]

It is not in the days of apartheid. Within living memory, it was only a certain class of people who were being empowered and there was a monopoly of a minority. Now, if one reads one’s newspapers, if one reads about empowerment, if one reads about the trade relations, if one reads about the whole concept of a Southern African Development Community, all this is the achievement of this Government. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, a long weekend is in the offing. I trust that hon members will enjoy quality time with their families and their constituents. I trust, also, that you will be able to cheer on our athletes who are taking part in the Sydney Olympic Games, even though you will be doing so in front of your television sets.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 18:03. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 1.     The Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the
     National Council of Provinces withdrew their decision of 1
     September 2000 establishing an ad hoc joint committee on the
     General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill [B 36 - 2000].

 2.     The Minister of Health on 29 August 2000 submitted a draft of
     the Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service
     Professions Second Amendment Bill, 2000, as well as the memorandum
     explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker
     and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been
     referred to the Portfolio Committee on Health and the Select
     Committee on Social Services by the Speaker and the Chairperson,
     respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).


 3.     The following Bills were introduced in the National Assembly on
     21 September 2000 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism
     (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     South African Reserve Bank Amendment Bill [B 62 - 2000]
              (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on
              Finance - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill
              and prior notice of its introduction published in
              Government Gazette No 21513 of 29 August 2000.]


     (ii)    Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 63 - 2000] (National
              Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Justice and
              Constitutional Development - National Assembly)
              [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
              introduction published in Government Gazette No 21492 of
              22 August 2000.]


     (iii)   South African Rail Commuter Corporation Limited Financial
              Arrangements Bill [B 64 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec
              75) - (Portfolio Committee on Finance - National
              Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
              of its introduction published in Government Gazette No
              21547 of 29 August 2000.]


     (iv)    African Renaissance and International Co-operation Fund
              Bill [B 65 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) -
              (Portfolio Committee on Finance - National Assembly)
              [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
              introduction published in Government Gazette No 21514 of
              29 August 2000.]

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 Report and Financial Statements of the South African Qualifications
 Authority for 1999-2000, including Report of the Auditor-General on the
 Financial Statements for 1999-2000.

 Referred to the Portfolio Committe on Education. The Report of the
 Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the South African
 Qualifications Authority for 1999-2000 is referred to the Standing
 Committee on Public Accounts.

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 Report on the National Advisory Council on Innovation for 1999.

 Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and
 Technology and to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.