TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:03.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Dr S C CWELE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes with dismay the labelling of Members of Parliament, Cabinet and the President as hypocrites in a lead story in the Sunday Times last weekend; (2) believes that the article was mischievous, irresponsible and was aimed at creating confusion amongst the public about Government’s stance on HIV/Aids and AZT;

(3) wishes to put it on record that the decision to allow MPs to access AZT is a prerogative of Parmed and not Members of Parliament and Cabinet, as the article implied; and [Interjections.]

(4) condemns the continued sensationalism and distortion by the media on issues of national importance.

[Applause.]

Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP and the DA:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Government has still failed to announce the date for the local government elections;

(2) is of the opinion that the Government has failed in its duty to make use of the months and years at its disposal to solve the outstanding problems, including those with the traditional leaders; and

(3) further notes that the Government failed to honour its undertaking to initiate international mediation, therefore censures the Government and also the Minister for Provincial and Local Government, Mr Mufamadi, for incompetence, slackness and failure in this regard.

[Applause.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the potential danger to health in the form of headaches, mental
       confusion and brain tumours, allegedly posed by microwave
       cellphone radiation; and

   (b)  the absence of available information on microwave cellphone
       radiation from cellphone manufacturers and on the Worldwide Web;
       and

(2) calls on the Minister of Health and the Minister of Communications to -

   (a)  introduce legislation or regulations that make information about
       levels of microwave radiation from cellphones sold in South
       Africa freely available; and

   (b)  sponsor research or release research data from elsewhere
       clarifying whether cellphone radiation is more dangerous when a
       phone is used with an earpiece or when it is hand-held.

Mr L J MODISENYANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the claims and accusations of the DP leader, Mr Tony Leon, on
       Government policy and its handling of HIV/Aids have been proved
       to be grossly inaccurate and misleading; and [Interjections.]

   (b)  in his failed attempt to discredit and make a mockery of the
       President's view on this subject, Mr Leon has made a fool of
       himself and totally misrepresented Glaxo Wellcome's offer to the
       South African Government; and

(2) calls on Mr Leon and the DP to retract their unfounded accusations, and admit that their views on HIV/Aids and AZT and related matters are unscientific and opportunistic.

[Applause.]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House -

(1) takes note of the ANC’s election manifesto launch over the weekend, which is once again based on promises, promises and even more promises; [Interjections.]

(2) warns that history will not take kindly to the ANC as it made the same promises in 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1999, and then failed to deliver; and

(3) calls on the voters not to be fooled by the promises in their 2000 election manifesto, because the 1994 ANC slogan “A Better Life For All” became a “Better Life For a Selected Few”, and instead of “Jobs, Jobs, Jobs” it became “Jobs and Positions For Friends, Family and Cronies”.[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) bears in mind the stated commitment of the Government to promote the creation and development of small and medium-sized business;

(2) notes the critical need for Government to do everything possible to prevent any further losses in jobs and to act against those in authority who are careless about the employment of people; and

(3) calls upon the Government, and specifically the Minister of Trade and Industry and the Minister of Public Enterprises, to address the discriminatory practices and exclusionary acts (as defined in section 1(1)(viii) of the Competition Act of 1998) of short-term insurers with regard to the motor body repair industry.

Mrs J CHALMERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House - (1) notes the statement by the President of South Africa, the hon Thabo Mbeki, that the ANC will ensure that the poor get some water and electricity for free and that those who can afford it will pay;

(2) further notes that the DP and the New NP are opposed to affluent people subsidising less affluent communities;

(3) believes that this statement sends a clear signal of the commitment of the ANC to ensuring that Government policy and programmes will target the poor and will improve the standard of living of this segment of our population; and

(4) calls on all South Africans to work towards an overwhelming victory for the ANC during the local government elections.

[Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC: That the House -

(1) takes cognisance of the fact that the issue of traditional leaders is creating a crisis in the country;

(2) notes that the announcement date for the local elections has been delayed as a result of the impasse between traditional leaders and the Government;

(3) urges the Government to clarify the status, role and authority of traditional leaders once and for all;

(4) notes that the PAC believes that traditional leaders can play an important role in the development of the rural areas when properly treated and their traditional role respected in the context of preserving positive values in the African culture;

(5) urges that traditional leaders be consulted in future on issues concerning their traditional authority so that the country can establish a democracy based on African democratic values;

(6) supports the traditional role of African royalty as custodians of African culture and progressive African customary law; and

(7) further urges that sections 211 and 212 of the Constitution be revisited …

[Time expired.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:

That the House -

(1) notes with dismay how political intolerance is rearing its hideous head in the North West Province, ahead of the local government elections;

(2) deplores the assassination of Mr Ernest Mashile Maleke, a UCDP candidate in Ward 18, Jouberton, Klerksdorp, by unknown trigger-happy prowlers last night;

(3) urges political parties to take it upon themselves to educate their supporters and members to accept that there is always the other version;

(4) supports the SAPS in all their efforts to bring the perpetrators to book; and

(5) expresses condolences to the Maleke family and their next of kin.

Mr K W MORWAMOCHE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the recent political tensions in Zimbabwe;

(2) further notes that these tensions are precipitated by irresponsible statements made by Mr Morgan Tsvangirai, the leader of the opposition party, the Movement for Democratic Change, threatening the President of the country with violence if he does not resign; (3) calls on the people of Zimbabwe to work together in dealing with the social and economic problems in the country; and

(4) reiterates its call to the Movement for Democratic Change to use its official opposition status and significant presence in parliament to strengthen democracy in that country.

[Applause.]

Ms J A SEMPLE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP and the Democratic Alliance:

That the House -

(1) notes the achievements of the schools participating in the Eskom EduPlan 2000, the national schools’ Permaculture programme;

(2) congratulates Baraneng Primary from Atteridgeville and the Harding Special School from KwaZulu-Natal for jointly winning the advanced category; (3) encourages all schools to join this programme which develops food gardens, providing enough food not only to feed the learners but often indigent people in the surrounding area as well; and

(4) encourages schools and communities to learn about the advantages and benefits of recycling and reusing waste such as grey water from baths and sinks, peels and paper for compost and mulch, and tin cans.

Prince N E ZULU: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock the startling media report that the IFP was defrauded in the 2 June 1999 election of hundreds of thousands of votes;

(2) believes that the defrauded votes could have shifted the balance of power in KwaZulu-Natal if the IFP electoral agents had reported the fraud timeously;

(3) acknowledges that the IEC pronouncement of a free and fair election in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal thus becomes a farce and a political mockery engineered by criminals and sinister forces; and

(4) regrets the twisting of the will of the people of KwaZulu-Natal and therefore calls on the IEC to double its effort in monitoring future elections.

Mr A C NEL: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the intransigence of Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, to work
       towards the restoration of peace in the Middle East;

   (b)  his refusal to take responsibility for the violent actions of
       Israeli security forces against Palestinians; and

   (c)  that the United Nations Security Council has condemned Israel
       for its excessive use of force;

(2) believes that Prime Minister Barak’s attitude is a setback for the peaceful resolution of the Middle East crisis;

(3) joins the international community in condemning Israel; and

(4) supports initiatives by United Nation’s Secretary-General, Mr Kofi Annan, to work towards a peaceful resolution of the Middle East crisis.

[Applause.]

Mrs M E OLCKERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the President, all Members of Parliament and provincial legislatures and all members of Cabinet as well as judges of the Constitutional and High Court are fortunate enough to have access to antiretroviral drugs through Parmed;[Interjections.]

(2) further notes that pregnant women who are HIV-positive and rape victims in the Western Cape also have access to antiretroviral drugs - a province governed by the Democratic Alliance where all the people are put first, even if they are not wealthy;

(3) commits Parliament to assuring the public that they will also be afforded the same life-saving opportunities, irrespective of their income; and

(4) urges the ANC Government to start providing their so-called “Better life for all” by following the example of the Western Cape. [Interjections.]

[Applause.]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move:

That the House - (1) appreciates the role of our veterinarians in attempting to contain the spread of foot-and-mouth disease;

(2) acknowledges that our veterinary services are lagging behind due to shortages of vets and budgetary constraints;

(3) takes note that, in the USA, eight to ten vets carry out the responsibilities assigned to a single vet in South Africa; and

(4) calls upon Government to institute an urgent inquiry into these aspects with a view to remedying the situation before irrepairable harm is done to our agricultural economy.

  ORIGIN OF AIDS AND ITS IMPLICATIONS FOR TREATMENT IN SOUTH AFRICA

                      (Subject for discussion)

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank you and the Speaker for affording us the opportunity of debating this important, although blindingly self-evident, issue.

Let me start by saying, on behalf of the DA and the DP, that for too long now, South Africa and the world have been witness to a Government imprisoned by a misplaced intellectual arrogance; a government that, in effect, even though that is not its intention, sacrifices lives rather than its own pride; a government that stubbornly refuses to admit that it has erred: a government beset by contradiction and obfuscation on the biggest single national health crisis that has ever faced this country; in short, a government at war with itself and its own allies, namely the Communist Party and Cosatu, and, indeed, with the respectable scientific world, when it comes to the question of informing and explaining.

It has actually happened on the watch of this Government, and, since the issue of the treatment of Aids goes to responsibility, why does not this Government take responsibility …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon Leon! On what point are you rising, hon member? Mr N J GOGOTYA: Madam Speaker, is it permitted to advertise in Parliament in the manner the DP is doing over there? Is that permissible in Parliament?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, that has nothing to do with me or my speaking turn.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, please take your seat.

Mr N J GOGOTYA: Is it allowed?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. There is no rule against it. [Interjections.] Order! Order! Hon members, I do think, though, that in terms of the decorum of the House, it really is not to be encouraged for us to be carrying stickers advertising our public …

Mr N J GOGOTYA: Is it right?

An HON MEMBER: It is a shame.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: A shame? Is it a shame for people to stand up and shout and cheer if … The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Please take your seat, hon Gogotya.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Interventions of that type are also shameful.

In fact, what happened was, I think it is described … [Interjections.] May I please have your protection and proceed, Madam Speaker?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! On what point are you rising, hon member?

Mr M RAMGOBIN: Madam Speaker, by imputation, are you therefore ruling that we on this side of the House can walk in with our ANC … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Ramgobin, please take your seat. I have already said that the hon members are not encouraged to do what they were doing [Interjections.]

Mr M RAMGOBIN: But they are doing it in defiance of your ruling.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please, I have asked that, for the sake of the decorum of the House, you desist from raising those stickers.

Mr M RAMGOBIN: It is still visible, Madam Speaker, and I think it is an abuse of this House …

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Do we have two sets of rules here, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I believe that it was well summed up … [Interjections.] … Am I going to be allowed to speak, Madam Speaker?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please proceed, hon Leon.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I believe that the hon the Minister has a speaking turn.

Churchill said the following. It applied, he said, to the Baldwin government on the question of rearmament, and I believe it applies with vigour to this Government on the question of Aids:

So they go on in strange paradox; decided only to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all-powerful to be impotent.

[Interjections.] We have heard today - and I know we will hear it again in this debate - that somehow everyone else is to blame for the confusion that exists. Somehow, it is the opposition, which does not govern this country, but not the Government, which has caused disrepute to set in in respect of the policy.

The hon the Minister of Health should not wave her hands. She should actually do something with them and get stuck in. [Interjections.] That is about the coherence of our Aids policy. That is about as clear as it is. [Interjections.] It was not the opposition that indicated that there was some kind of conspiracy afoot. It was not we who took issue with the international community. Let me quote for hon members what happened when our hon President went to the United States of America in May this year. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: What did you do, then?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Much more than youb have ever done!

Writing in The New York Review of Books, Helen Epstein said, and I would like to read the quotation:

On May 23, President Mbeki was interviewed on The Newshour with Jim Lehrer, and he was asked specifically about his controversial Aids policies.

The author writes that his replies were a series of evasions''. He said that he had never said that HIV was not the cause of Aids - which is the standard refrain of this Government - but then, she adds,he did not deny that he had questioned the link between them’’.

He was then asked why he refused to make AZT available in public maternity wards for the prevention of HIV transmission from mother to child. He answered, and I quote again, that -

… the state could not afford to make antiretroviral drugs available for life to all HIV-positive people in South Africa. But he was not answering the question that had been put to him. He had not been asked why he didn’t provide all HIV-positive South Africans with antiretroviral therapy for life. He had been asked why he didn’t provide it only to HIV- positive women for a month …

Let me say this. We are now dealing with public policy …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: … as it has been for six years in this country.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon Leon! Is that a point of order, hon member?

Mr T M GONIWE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: We are discussing the origin of Aids. [Interjections.]

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: We have a President who denies its origins!

Mr M T GONIWE: As the hon the Leader of the Opposition is speaking, with all due respect, he is not displaying a ribbon to show that he cares about the subject that we are discussing. [Interjections.]

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: He is misusing the rules.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Goniwe, please take your seat and let the hon member develop his case. Let us hear what he is saying! Let us give him a chance. [Applause.]

Mr T M GONIWE: Madam Speaker, the starting point is to put on a ribbon.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: If only the blind would see, Madam Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Please proceed, hon Leon.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I think we have a first-hand demonstration of why the debate on HIV/Aids does not move on in this country. I think it is actually time that the debate moved on and this Parliament led South Africa, because it is very easy to win the HIV/Aids debate against the ANC Government. But the real losers of the past years are not the pampered participants in the Parmed Medical Aid Scheme, sitting on that side of the House. The real losers are out there in our suburbs, in our townships and on our farms - the men, women, children and the unborn babies whose lives are being cut short by a killer disease even as the politicians debate its causes nit-picking over precise definitions and proper terminology.

Therefore, I would like to make a sincere offer to this Government today. Let us declare a truce over the battle on HIV/Aids, on the basis of an unambiguous Government commitment to accept the best wisdom that science has to offer; let us form a mighty coalition against HIV/Aids together with every party in this House and every leader and popular personality. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister of Health is shaking her head in disagreement. That, I must tell the House, is a great pity. From the worlds of sports, business, glamour and civil society, let us all stand shoulder to shoulder and send out a clear message to the people of South Africa - yes, HIV does cause Aids; HIV is transmitted primarily through sex and its prevention is only secured through abstinence, monogamy or the safe use of condoms. Let us make use of every available platform to drive this message. But let us go beyond that. Let us use the public broadcasting media to preach that message. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the Leader of the Opposition to waste our time by talking such nonsense? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! That is not a point of order. Please proceed, hon member.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, there you have it! The Government is saying that the received international scientific wisdom on HIV/Aids is rubbish. There you have it, from a member of the executive!

But I want to say that the financial implications in the treatment of Aids are an obstacle, but we can overcome them. I hope that the hon the Minister of Health will use the debate this afternoon to tell us whether or not she has taken up or intends taking up the offer by international drug companies to make Combivo available to the developing world at a cost of $2 a day. This offer will allow us to go beyond using antiretrovirals simply for pregnant HIV-positive women and rape survivors, and it will allow us to assist more and more people who are living with HIV. That is what we need to do.

I want to say that wherever the Democratic Alliance wins control of a local government in South Africa, we will do everything in our power, subject to normal ethical and legal regimes, to make those antiretroviral drugs available to HIV-positive people, particularly the categories of pregnant women and rape survivors. [Applause.] I am not making that promise lightly! One province - the only province in South Africa that is not governed by the ANC - actually has such a public health programme available for HIV- positive women, to prevent mother-to-child transmission. [Applause.] Can the ANC explain why this is so in only one province? What about the other eight? And when are we going to have a jointed up government, so that all of us can use all our resources in the fight against the HIV/Aids? [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms N E HANGANA: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I think that you have made a ruling regarding those stupid posters over there, and I think members must respect your ruling. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, may I request you again to please desist from waving your stickers.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order: I would like to suggest to you that the display in the House during the Leader of the Opposition’s speech was disgraceful. [Interjections.] Hon members of the Government in particular should be told to behave themselves in this Parliament. The people of South Africa are watching what is going on. [Interjections.]

Dr A S NKOMO: Madam Speaker, It is unfortunate that the Leader of the Opposition did not revise his speech after this article was puiblished in the Cape Times. [Applause.] Perhaps I need to teach a little epistemology, which is the science of knowledge, after what we have heard this afternoon. [Interjections.]

The medico-scientific establishment, of which I am a member, has a particular take on knowledge. It is mechanistic, stresses the dualism between the mind and body, is often physically reductionist and sees disease as located in the body, and follows what is called the doctrine of specific etiology, which, to the uninitiated, means origin. [Interjections.]

The disadvantage of this approach is that it rarely provides a complete account, in other words, a holistic etiology, which would include issues such as poverty, nutrition, stress, oppression and so on. Unfortunately. this etiology results in a constant quest for an over-reliance on pharmaceuticals and the armamentarium of medicines. This is evidenced by the DP which sees antiretrovirals as stock of weapons …

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, is the speaker, as a member of the medical scientific fraternity. Prepared to take a question? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Are you prepared to take a question, hon member?

Dr A S NKOMO: No, I shall not take a question now. Cameran can see me outside afterwards.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Proceed, hon member.

Dr A S NKOMO: Madam Speaker, this is evidenced by the DP which see antiretrovirals as a stock of weapons and the only solution in halting the HIV/Aids pandemic. What time and experience has shown us is this: HIV/Aids is a complex disease entity and that there are major gaps in our knowledge. All the scientific brains in the world agree on this. Those of us who have seen people affected by its course can only share this observation - I am talking about those who visit hospitals and live in the neighbourhoods of people living with Aids and who we do not theorise about in the southern suburbs. But perhaps one could add value to this occasion if one started with some fundamental facts and reflections.

Firstly, a key lesson of the twentieth century is that the major advances in public health and life expectancy have been largely a consequence of socieconomic improvements and the provision of the basic amenities of life. Western Europe during or just before the times of Charles Dickens to those members who have heard of such a person - serves as an example. [Laughter.] Witness what happened to John Keats and Percy Bysshe Shelley who were victims of consumption.

The successes in the fight against TB in western Europe stand as a good example. This, of course, does not mean that the introduction of chemotherapy in the fight against TB in the 1940s was not efficacious. Rather, it is an assertion of the fact that significant improvements predated this scientific advance and resulted from apparently simple interventions … [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I really must ask whether what the hon Dr Nkomo is saying has anything whatsoever to do with this debate. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member Ellis, please take your seat. Let Dr Nkomo finish his speech, please. Proceed hon Nkomo. [Interjections.]

This is an assertion of the fact that significant improvements have resulted from apparently simple interventions such as adequate sanitation and housing. It is partly this approach that has informed the recommendations of those who gathered in Alma-Ata in 1978, leading to the international movement in support of the primary health care approach.

Secondly, it is common knowledge that there is a strong correlation between the preponderance of the severity of disease and illness, and poverty and deprivation. Needless to say, therefore, in our context which is characterised by high levels of poverty and deprivation, HIV and Aids will exist against the background of other diseases, each influencing the other. Therefore any appropriate response to this epidemic must try to understand these interactions so as to inform our interventions.

Thirdly, HIV and Aids are not simply medical problems. They are fundamentally social problems. In this regard, it is important for us to remember that inasmuch as all of us are not immune to HIV and Aids, we also know that this scourge hits out with greater ferocity against the poor, the socially deprived and marginalised. Consequently, the predominant picture of Aids in South Africa today is African, it is rural and it is poor. The ravishes of globalisation have placed us at the epicentre of this pandemic, with the clock ticking with relentless inertia.

Finally, we have learnt from scholars such as Foucault, Derrida, Dubois and many others that power produces knowledge and that knowledge is relative. [Interjections.] This applies even more so to scientific knowledge, especially, in this time of rapid scientific and technological advances. We need to be humble in our claims of what we know at all times and try to marshall our collective wisdom. As they say in Malawi: ``Nzeru ka Pengua’ ‘ [knowledge is collective]. Therefore, we need to marshall this collective knowledge and make use of the widening borders of knowledge in order to inform and improve our actions, and this is why we established the presidential panel on HIV and Aids because `nzeru ka Pengua’ - knowledge is collective. [Applause.]

Whilst we need to make the best possible use of the information available to us at any given point in time informed by the best evidence available, we should simultaneously not cease asking the questions that would help inform more comprehensive response.

When we are arrogant about knowledge, when we think knowledge is gospel, our knowledge or little knowledge …

Mr M J ELLIS: You have no knowledge.

Dr A S NKOMO: When we do not interrogate information at our disposal, it is inevitable that we will make mistakes.

Anyone who read the Cape Times today will agree that the hon Tony Leon has made such a mistake. [Interjections.] The hon Mr Leon insisted that the President has declined to buy AZT at cut-price from Glaxo Wellcome SA (Pty) Ltd. This is blatantly untrue. So is the hon Leon’s contention that the Government refuses to provide AZT to rape victims, and so is his entire scientific argument which is nonscientific.

The LEADER OF THE OFFICIAL OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: May he, the hon member, mislead Parliament by saying something which is true is blatantly untrue? May he also accuse me of saying a blatant untruth when it actually appears in an official state document? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Honourable member, I will make a ruling only after looking at the Hansard. [Interjections.]

Mr A J LEON: Read what the document says. Here it is.

Dr A S NKOMO: In other words, the hon member was essentially wrong and the President was right. The hon Leon has known about this incorrectness for more than two months but has chosen not to come clean. He has not said it in Parliament or anywhere else in the country. His silence has done irreparable damage to the image of South Africa and the Government. The reason why he has, up to now, failed to apologise to the hon President and our nation for his stubborn and inaccurate accusations might be ascribed to ``foot-in-mouth syndrome’. [Applause.]

The Leon gospel shows that, indeed, knowledge is relative.

This understanding informs our national response, as encapsulated in the Government’s HIV/Aids/STD Strategic Plan for South Africa 2000-2005. As has been said a million times before, this strategy is premised on the causal link between HIV and Aids. Consequently, the strategy advocates a series of measures that will help stop the spread of the infection and simultaneously pay attention to those already affected or infected. At the core of these measures is the ABC message, which is abstain, be faithful and condomise. [Interjections.]

We have also ensured, in legislation, that treatment for opportunistic infections is part of the mandated basic minimum package, fully funded by medical aid schemes, to all members. Members must witness the Medical Schemes Act of 1998, if they are so ignorant.

I want to remind the House that the strategy that I referred to was launched by the Minister of Health just a few months ago in June 2000, at exactly the same time that our detractors would have the whole world believe that we changed course, simply on account of an attempt to rigorously understand the true nature of this epidemic in our country so that we could improve our own capacity to respond.

Let there be no doubt that the ANC stands firmly behind the successful implementation of the strategy. What we shall not stop doing, is to call on all the scientists of the world to work together and try to answer the many unanswered questions to this complex problem. To us, this is not a luxury we can afford to postpone indefinitely. Rather, it is a critical part of what we experience in our daily work as we advance the agenda of a better life for all, because poverty is not academic, it is not intellectual, it is experiential! [Time expired.] [Applause.] [Interjections.] The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it in order, two minutes into the hon Dr Nkomo’s speech, for the hon Leader of the Opposition to say: ``What have you been smoking since you gave up cigarettes?’’ [Laughter.] Members may laugh. This is an allegation of substance abuse, because it has credibility. [Laughter.] The schoolboys may laugh.

Madam Speaker, I want you to ask the hon Leader of the Opposition if he uttered the words: ``What have you been smoking since you gave up cigarettes?’’ If it is so that he did say that, then I want you to make a ruling as to whether such an imputation can be made against the sobriety and demeanour of a member of Parliament. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order!

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, may I address you on the point of order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon Gibson. Before you address me I just want to address the hon Leader of the Opposition. The hon Leader of the Opposition, did you say those words, and who were you saying them to? The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I was saying them to Dr Nkomo. Indeed, I did say them.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! What did you mean, hon member?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I asked him a question. He did not answer it, and I left it at that. There are many things one can smoke. Mr Asmal is an expert on smoking, he should know. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The hon Leader of the Opposition could mean any of many things under the sun. [Interjections.] He could, and we could actually spend an afternoon trying to go through each of them. I have a feeling that if I asked him what he meant … I have asked him that question. [Interjections.]

Prof B TUROK: No. Point of order …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He says that he asked a question. [Interjections.] Now, I do not want us to spend time trying to probe the meaning of what the Leader of the Opposition said. [Interjections.]

Prof B TUROK: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The phrase that was used is commonly known. It is commonly used to refer to people who smoke dagga or some similar substance. [Interjections.] It is a common … Madam Speaker, please allow me to finish. It is a common expression, it is well known and it refers ….

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are saying the same thing you said before.

Prof B TUROK: Madam Speaker, may I please finish?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay.

Prof B TUROK: We are very upset about that allegation. It is a very serious allegation against a senior member on this side of the House. [Interjections.] And, it is an implication that the speaker was suffering from hallucinations or the effects of some drug. [Interjections.] It is a serious allegation. [Interjections.] I would ask …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Turok, …

Prof B TUROK: I would ask, Madam Speaker, that the hon Leader of the Opposition be expelled from this House for a full day. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Turok, you will note that I allowed you to speak even though I had not finished speaking. You stood there and insisted on a point of order while I was speaking. [Interjections.] I do not think that that is something that I would like to encourage in this House. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Expel him from the House!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! On the question of the question that was asked by the Leader of the Opposition to hon Dr Nkomo, I hear and I understand the feeling from the majority party. However, I that this House allow me to handle the matter with the Leader of the Opposition after this sitting.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, every disease has a historical, scientific and political component. The history of most diseases is shadowy, speculative and difficult to confirm. In this respect, … [Interjections.] … perhaps I should wait for the microphones. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I really do want to say that the sound this afternoon is absolutely appalling. [Interjections.] When Dr Nkomo was speaking, it was not bad, but when the hon the Leader of the Opposition was speaking, it was very soft … [Interjections] … and we cannot hear a word of … [Interjections] … what Dr Rabinowitz is saying … [Interjections.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, I think … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Can you hear the speaker?

Dr R RABINOWITZ: When I tap them, they are dead.

Mr M RAMGOBIN: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, may I know what drinks the hon Mike Ellis have had during his lunch and how many of them? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Dr Rabinowitz, can you just check the microphones. Hon members, can you hear the speaker? [Interjections.] Dr R RABINOWITZ: Can hon members please listen to me! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Can we have some order! Please take your seats.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, every disease has a historical, scientific and political component. The history of most diseases is shadowy, speculative and difficult to confirm. In this respect, Aids is no different from influenza, hepatitis and a host of others.

Good medical science observe signs and symptoms, chemical and biological changes, proposes hypotheses to the cause and tests these by experimentation. Only when verified by a large body of researchers does a hypothesis stand until replaced by a more accurate one.

Pseudo or fake science starts with conclusions and juggles facts and evidence to fit those conclusions. Many of the dissidents belong in this category. Politicians enter the arena in deciding how to spend the country’s money to maximise every one’s health and happiness. In a Utopia, everyone would be treated. Here, in the real world, it is a juggling game. Who do we prioritise and how?

Political decisions may be independent of science or follow it. But it would be folly for them to dictate science, because then science becomes the tool with which politicians manipulate perceptions. Instead, science should be a tool to assist politicians in the art of the possible.

Thousands of scientists have done Aids research, providing a vast body of information about the disease. However, as Dr Nkomo correctly pointed out, I must agree that there are still many puzzling elements about Aids.

We cannot postpone an all-out assault on the virus that causes Aids while we seek the missing pieces of the puzzle. Nor should Government deflect attention from its failures in the Aids war to cover up for incompetencies in the health service. If we are unable or unwilling to cope with orphans and treatment regimes, let us take the public on board and say so, and let us decide what we are willing or competent to do.

As regards the source of HIV, it is claimed that the most likely source in humans is the closely related HI- virus in chimpanzees. Other theories such as those related to the polio vaccine and kidney tissue cultures are spurious. The polio vaccine was taken orally, while the HI-virus is killed in the acid stomach.

As for all other conspiracy theories, there is not a shred of evidence to support them, whereas thousands of researchers have isolated the human immune eficiency virus from people with Aids, seen it, photographed it, replicated it, classified it into HIV types 1 and 2, and subdivided it into clades A to J. Clade C, as we all know, has been used to create a vaccine.

It differs from other viruses in that most viruses invade tissues in the body such as the throat, the kidneys, the lungs or the brain, but the HI- virus invades the immune cells themselves. Using an enzyme called reverse transcriptase, it makes clones of itself, and paralyses the CD 4T cells which are pivotal to immune function.

Initially the body remakes them, up to a billion a day, but eventually it collapses under pressure, giving way to a host of other diseases. Here, again, I must agree with Dr Nkomo. Poverty does play a role. The stronger the immune system, the longer the body endures.

Before the virus had been identified, the acquired immune eficiency syndrome was so named. Now that all the types of HIV have been classified, the disease could be renamed human immune deficiency type 1 clade A'' or acquired immune deficiency type 2 clade J’’, for example.

According to Prof Schaub who heads the SAIMR, with the Western bloc tests done in the Western world, and the ELISA rapid screening and confirmation tests done here, the results are 100% reliable. However, because science cannot presume to be perfect, he says one can allow room for a O, 005% error margin. Neither pregnancy, nor malaria, nor TB gives false positives. Properly done, the tests here are as reliable as those done anywhere in the world, according to several scientists employed by the South African Government.

Therefore the big question must be: Why do we not test people more vigorously? Knowledge is power and where Aids is concerned, knowledge is also safety. The vast majority of people who transmit HIV do not know that they are positive. It spreads more rapidly in the heterosexual community in Third World countries because of the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases.

Therefore, to remove the stigma, provide widespread testing for many infectious diseases, including Aids. Offer pre- and post-test counselling, confidentiality and various forms of support, and we will roll back denial and make a dent in behaviour. If Government cannot afford to treat everyone, let us prioritise. Rape victims, pregnant women or anyone who can be supported by NGOs or donor funds should be first in the pool, which will widen as our capacity increases.

Then, let us vigorously embark on programmes to look after children orphaned by Aids. Why? Because they are stigmatised, whereas communities do embrace children orphaned for other reasons.

There is a perception that Africa needs drastic measures to cope with Aids. Not so. It requires practical measures, Government will and partnerships with the private sector and the international community. By adopting defensive, politically correct tactics we are marooning ourselves on a sinking ship. [Applause.] Dr S J GOUS: Mevrou die Speaker, dit is miskien nodig dat ons eers vandag ‘n paar definisies opklaar. Die eerste een is dié van die term ``sindroom’’. Die definisie sê dit is diverse simptome en tekens as gevolg van ‘n gemeenskaplike oorsaak.

Kom ons neem griep as ‘n eenvoudige voorbeeld van ‘n sindroom. Dit word deur ‘n virusinfeksie veroorsaak en gee aanleiding tot ‘n verskeidenheid tekens en simptome, byvoorbeeld koors, hoofpyn, spierpyn, gewrigspyn, toe neus, seer keel en hoes, wat kan lei tot sinusitis, oorontsteking, longontsteking, hartspierontsteking en selfs die dood, en dit alles as gevolg van ‘n enkele virusinfeksie! Dit is dus baie duidelik dat ‘n virus ‘n sindroom kán veroorsaak, en daar is baie voorbeelde daarvan.

‘n Vraag wat dan nou ontstaan, is hoekom ons ons kinders teen masels, pokke, polio en al dié goed laat inent. Die rede is dat die wetenskap ons vertel ons moet dit doen. Dit is presies hierdie einste wetenskap, dieselfde tegnologie en dieselfde tegnieke wat ons vertel dat MIV vigs en die dood veroorsaak. Nou het ons skielik ‘n probleem daarmee.

Armoede was nog nooit op sy eie ‘n oorsaak van enige siekte nie. Daar bestaan geen mediese toets of medisyne om armoede te voorkom nie. Wat wel waar is, is dat armoede ‘n bydraende faktor kan wees om mense meer vatbaar te maak of meer blootstelling te gee of om ‘n siekte vinniger te laat ontwikkel. Om egter te sê dat armoede op sy eie ‘n oorsaak van enige siekte is, is eenvoudig blote onsin en nie wetenskaplik verdedigbaar nie.

Ek stel dit dus onomwonde: armoede veroorsaak nié vigs nie! Vrae wat kan ontstaan … [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek sê wéér vir daardie agb lede, armoede veroorsaak nié vigs nie! [Tussenwerpsels.] Daar is vrae wat kan onstaan. Wanneer ons kondoomgebruik en veilige seksuele omgang propageer, is dit om die virus se oordrag te voorkom of om armoede se oordrag te voorkom?

Dit is baie duidelik dat die sogenaamde vigs-afvalliges die President op sleeptou geneem het. So het hulle vir hulle ‘n podium geskep om ongekende skade aan te rig nadat hulle reeds jare gelede gediskrediteer is. Hierdie inmenging het gelei tot dubbelsinnige boodskappe van die President en die Minister van Gesondheid ten opsigte van vigs.

Die gewone mense is siek en sat vir al die syfers en argumente wat gewoonlik totaal bo-oor hulle koppe gaan. Hulle is nou al so verward - net soos daardie agb lede - dat hulle nie meer enige boodskap wil glo nie. Om enige seksuele gedragspatroonverandering teweeg te bring is moeilik genoeg. Met die verwarring wat daar nou heers, begin dit haas onmoontlik word om enige boodskap tuis te bring.

Die skade wat berokken is, is reeds so groot dat die Regering dit nodig ag om ‘n R2 miljoen-advertensieveldtog te loods om hulle MIV/vigs-boodskap te verduidelik. Hierdie veldtog sou totaal onnodig wees as die President en die Minister van Gesondheid net onomwonde wou sê dat MIV verreweg die grootste oorsaak van vigs is, soos ons dit tans in Suid-Afrika beleef.

Dan is daar die presidensiële advieskomitee oor vigs wat tot dusver R2,3 miljoen gekos het. Hieruit gaan geen nuwe feite of aanbevelings kom nie, as gevolg van die onverstaanbare belading van die paneel met vigs-afvalliges. As ons nou Sarafina se verkwiste geld by hierdie geld tel, is daar nou al genoeg geld om 640 000 dosisse antiretrovirale middels aan MIV-positiewe swanger vroue te gee.

Hoekom is die SA Nasionale Vigsraad so stil? Wat het geword van die interministeriële komitee oor MIV/vigs? Waar is die risikovoordeelverslae oor antiretrovirale middels van die Medisynebeheerraad, wat reeds sedert April in die Minister van Gesondheid se besit is? Meer spesifiek, waarom word al die oorweldigende wetenskaplike bewyse dat antiretrovirale middels die vertikale transmissie van die virus van MIV-positiewe swanger vroue na hulle kinders voorkom, doodeenvoudig geïgnoreer? [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die Nuwe NP en die Demokratiese Alliansie aanvaar sonder voorbehoud die Durban-deklarasie van meer as 5 000 vooraanstaande wetenskaplikes, wat dit duidelik en onomwonde stel dat MIV vigs veroorsaak, gebaseer op wetenskaplike navorsing wat voldoen aan die hoogste en aanvaarbare standaarde. Die Nuwe NP en die Demokratiese Alliansie se MIV/vigs-beleid stel dit dan ook onomwonde en duidelik: ons steun die gebruik van antiretrovirale middels, beide vir die voorkoming en behandeling van die siekte.

Elkeen van ons, soos ons hier sit, ken ten minste een persoon wat MIV- positief is, vigs het of reeds daaraan gesterf het. Elke keer as ‘n persoon aan vigs sterf, sterf ‘n deel van ons verlede en ons toekoms saam met hom. Dit is moeilik om in woorde te omskryf hoe ‘n vigsdood lyk. Dit is ‘n stadige en uitmergelende proses. Geen persoon wat dit ooit meegemaak het, kan afsydig teenoor hierdie bedreiging staan nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr S J GOUS: Madam Speaker, it is perhaps necessary that we first of all clarify a few definitions today. The first concerns the term ``syndrome’’. The definition says it is diverse symptoms and signs as a result of a common cause.

Let us take influenza as a simple example of a syndrome. It is caused by a virus infection and causes a variety of signs and symptoms, for example, fever, headache, muscular pain, joint ache, blocked nose, sore throat and coughing, which could lead to a sinus infection, ear infection, pneumonia, heart muscle infection and even death, and all this as a result of one single virus infection! It is therefore very clear that a virus can cause a syndrome, and there are many examples of that.

A question that may arise now is why we have our children inoculated against measles, smallpox, polio and all those things. The reason is that science tells us to do so. It is precisely this science, the same technology and the same techniques, that tell us that HIV causes Aids and death. Now all of a sudden we have a problem with that.

Poverty in itself has never been the cause of any disease. There is no medical test or medication to prevent poverty. What is in fact true is that poverty is a contributary factor to rendering people more susceptible, or to expose them more, to a disease developing faster. However, to say that poverty in itself is the cause of any disease is quite simply nonsense and not scientifically defensible.

I therefore say unequivocally: Poverty does not cause Aids! Questions that may arise … [Interjections.] I am saying, once again, to those hon members, poverty does not cause Aids! [Interjections.] There are questions that arise. When we promote the use of condoms and safe sex, do we do so to prevent the transmission of the virus or of poverty?

It is very clear that the so-called Aids renegades have won over the President. In that way they created a podium for themselves for doing untold damage after they had already been discredited years ago. This interference led to the ambiguous messages of the President and the Minister of Health as far as Aids is concerned.

The ordinary people are sick and tired of all the figures and arguments that usually go right over their heads. They are now so confused - just like those hon members - that they do not want to believe any message. Bringing about a change in any sexual behaviour pattern is difficult enough. With the confusion that there is now it is becoming almost impossible to get any message accross.

The damage that has been done is already so extensive that the Government deems it necessary to launch a R2 million advertising campaign to explain their HIV/Aids message. This campaign would be totally unneccesary if the President and the Minister of Health would just state frankly that HIV is by far the greatest cause of Aids, as we find in South Africa at present.

Then there is the presidential advisory committee on Aids that has cost R2,3 million thus far. No new facts or recommendations are going to come from this because of the incomprehensible loading of the committee with Aids renegades. If we add the wasted Sarafina 2 money to this amount of money there is enough money to provide pregnant women who are HIV positive with 640 000 doses of anti-retroviral drugs.

Why is the SA National Aids Council so quiet? What has become of the intermininsterial committee on Aids? Where are the risk benefit reports on anti-retroviral drugs of the Medicine Control Board, which has already been in possession of the Minister of Health since April? More spesifically, why is the overwhelming scientific proof that anti-retroviral drugs prevent the vertical transmission of the virus from HIV positive pregnant women to their children simply ignored? [Interjections.]

The New NP and the Democratic Alliance without reservation accept the Durban Declaration of over 5 000 eminent scientists, who state clearly and unequivocally that HIV causes Aids, based on scientific research that complies with the highest and most acceptable standards. The HIV/Aids policy of the New NP and the Democratic Alliance states unequivocally and clearly: We support the use of anti-retroviral drugs, both for the prevention and treatment of the disease.

Each one of us, as we are sitting here, knows at least one person who is HIV positive, has Aids or has already died of it. Every time that a person dies of Aids a part of our past and our future dies with him. It is difficult to describe in words what dying of Aids looks like. It is a slow and emaciating process. No person who has ever shared this experience could remain detached from this threat. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr S NAIDOO: Madam Speaker, hon members, one wonders whether this debate is a case of too little too late. South Africa today is a developing country, and the cold war facing us cannot be attributed to the legacy of colonialism or that of apartheid anymore. South Africa is a country with a large portion of its population reflecting a typical Third World situation. I hope that this debate today will be able to place equal emphasis on the promotive, preventative, curative and rehabilitative services.

The UDM supports a balanced and comprehensive approach to the pandemic in our country. I do not believe that this debate should stagnate only on the issue of whether the HIV causes Aids. We now must accept that HIV is definitely linked to Aids.

Our Constitution has inherent in it an enshrined guarantee to every South African to the right to medical care. It is undeniably the responsibility of the state to provide basic health services. Our Government is indulging in shenanigans to detract and abrogate this very responsibility.

It is no more the thesis of the Aids syndrome; it is now the thesis of the ``burning Rome’’ syndrome because whilst the diabolical HIV scourge wreaks havoc and devastation in our communities, our society and in our land, our President is indulging in worthless semantics. I quote two reports:

Lately Government spin doctors have denied that the President has ever disputed the link between HIV and Aids. But they have stopped short of saying that he has ever endorsed it. Denial, which has long characterised the psychological response of most people to HIV/Aids, has become Government practice. If Mbeki and his Cabinet really believe that HIV causes Aids and that the ABC of prevention is the ideal strategy to tackle it, they should get up in public and say so unequivocally. Also the contradictions from the President in the National Assembly last week, Mbeki re-affirmed that Government efforts to curb the spread of Aids were based on the belief that HIV caused Aids. However, in the same speech, Mbeki also challenged the thesis that a virus could cause a syndrome such as Aids.

It is time that this Government acted responsibly. It is indeed activating the self-destructive mode if it continues to play Russian roulette with the lives of our people. The mixed signals have made our country lose credibility. What is required is an honest effort such as that demonstrated by Brazil, which has initiated a turnaround in its fight against the devastating onslaught of HIV/Aids.

We cannot any longer afford to have Government playing mind games while generations of our people are being decimated.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I will be most grateful if someone will answer a simple question: If there is no link between HIV/Aids, why is it called HIV/Aids? Nobody talks about athlete’s foot/dandruff or enteritis/glaucoma - quite clearly, because there is no link between the two. When somebody explains this HIV/Aids anomaly to me, I will listen carefully. Until then, I serve notice that I am not interested in debating this issue, now or at any other time in the future. [Interjections.]

I am not interested in esoteric debates with the President or any of his Ministers or supporters. I am interested in the ordinary people of South Africa. While the President and the Minister of Health and other Ministers are indulging in intellectual debates and evasions and are playing with words in order to show how clever they are or how loyal they are to their beloved leader, millions of our people, mainly our young people, are living with HIV/Aids. Too many of them are dying of Aids.

To me, the HIV/Aids question must come down from where the elite live to where ordinary South Africans live. [Interjections.] The President has stated that he and the hon Leader of the Opposition live on separate planets.

The problem with the President is that he interrupts his overseas tours in order to travel in his spaceship to some or other stadium, somewhere in South Africa. The spaceship lands and he alights in a stadium where there is a rent-a-crowd that has been brought there to make it look good for television. They applaud in all the right places, and then he gets back into the spaceship and travels off overseas.

The difference between the President and Mr Tony Leon is that Tony talks to people - ordinary people - and listens to them. [Interjections.] Members of the DP and the DA do not yet have majority support in South Africa. What we do have, is public representatives who are prepared to put themselves out and who are prepared to go to the schools, the police stations, the hospitals and the Aids sanctuaries to talk to ordinary people and hear what they want.

Too many of the new elite sitting in this House and in provincial legislatures have become far too important to service the needs of the people and they have become remote from the concerns of ordinary South Africans. What some of this new elite - our new lords and masters, ladies and madams - need to do is to go to a rape clinic and talk to women who are anguished because of the degradation and the humiliation of rape, and who are also petrified that they have been infected with AIDS.

Members of the new elite need to come along with DA representatives and talk to the mothers and fathers of the young men and women who are HIV- positive, or those who are dying from Aids. They need to go and visit Aids babies and experience the shock, the pain, and the sadness and the wastage of so many young lives.

The deaths are increasing, but they have nowhere nearly reached their height. When the deaths really start, our people will not be able to afford to spend R3 000, R4 000 or R6 000 on the funeral of a loved one. They do not have the money and they also know that another family member will follow soon and will also have to be buried. It is this stark situation which faces our country and our subcontinent.

Let us not debates issues such as those they are trying to debate. That hon stupid Deputy Minister should ask why after six years he has not been entrusted with a Ministry? [Interjections.] Why is he still a Deputy Minister after six years? My heart bleeds when I think of the youth who will die or who are at risk. We need to reach out to those who are already infected. We need to do whatever it takes to protect our young from being infected. Anything less, and we all as a nation will have blood on our hands. [Interjections.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! hon Gibson!

Mr J H MOMBERG: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon Gibson to call the Deputy Minister ``stupid’’?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! It is impolite, but it is not unparliamentary.

Mr D H M GIBSON: And it is the truth as well, Madam. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is unfortunate.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, my thanks to the FF for the extra time.

… lack of a common national vision and the persistent racialisation of issues have often lead to heated furores and a failure to act for the common good. The current HIV/Aids mudslinging, often refered to as a debate, is such an example.

These are the words of the President of the SA Medical Research Council. The Mail & Guardian refered to this debacle as a mad fight against science that is costing thousands of lives and causing unimaginable suffering.

The fact is that we are currently simply rehashing a controversy that took place in the developed countries more than ten years ago. In terms of human and financial resources, Government has, indeed, put our money where their mouths is. But their strategy has failed dismally as 1 700 new infections are added daily to the 4,3 million already infected.

According to Makgoba, a number of carefully conducted experiments and clinical case studies have shown HIV to be the cause of Aids. HIV/Aids has fulfilled all four postulates of Koch raised by Aids dissident Dr Duesberg in 1987. In addition, new developments have allowed researchers to document and isolate HIV in virtually all cases of Aids.

Case studies of accidental HIV-exposure in lab workers, occupationally acquired HIV infection, haemophiliacs, mother-to-child transmission and injection drug use have all provided excellent scientific proof and have demonstrated further the chronological association between HIV and Aids. While conditions such as poverty, malnutrition and many chronic infectious and noninfectious diseases, including TB and malaria, may be aggravating or contributing factors, there is ample scientific data to demonstrate that they do not cause Aids.

The enormous impact of antiretrovirals on HIV/Aids, supported by outstanding scientific and clinical evidence, confirms the irrefutable link between HIV and Aids. Antiretrovirals have increased life expectancy and improved the quality of life of many Aids sufferers in the developed world. Good scientific evidence exists to show that AZT and Nevirapine reduce mother-to-child HIV transmission, and the benefits of treatment outweigh the risks.

Our Government’s response to this is to threaten to imprison doctors if they bring onto hospital premises the inexpensive antiretroviral, Nevirapine, which is capable of saving the lives of about 8 000 children of HIV-positive pregnant women each month.

The effects of the current furore over HIV/Aids have much broader implications than some are prepared to admit. The mixed signals we are sending are having a negative impact on patients and families, undermining scientists and eroding foreign investor confidence in South Africa.

Makgoba has said, ``If we do not heed these implications, history may judge us to have collaborated in the greatest genocide of our time.’’ However, he then forgets for just a moment that genocide is currently politically correct in this nation, as we callously and unashamedly murder our unborn children, simply because they are inconvenient. Are we insane? [Interjections.]

It is, of course, a fact that the well-known conditionalities attached to IMF and World Bank loans have included population control. Is it possible that this has impacted Government policy on both Aids and abortion? Is it possible that these lunatic policies are being dictated, and South Africans are gullibly embracing them?

God help us. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Mrs M A A NJOBE: Madam Speaker, I want to correct the widely published misconception that Government is doing nothing for those who are infected and affected by HIV and Aids. Unfortunately, this propaganda is fuelled by those who only see Government intervention as being equal to the large- scale provision of antiretroviral drugs such as AZT.

What we need here are facts and not just propaganda. May I now inform this House about what the ANC-led Government is doing in the area of treatment, care and support for those who are infected and affeced by HIV and Aids.

Firstly, to manage HIV infection, we must be able to identify those who are infected with the virus in a nondiscriminating and nonthreatening way. To address this, the Government is increasing access to voluntary counselling and testing at health facilities and nonmedical sites.

To implement this policy, Government is promoting the use of rapid tests that have proved to be accessible, reliable and cost-effective. The National Institute for Virology was commissioned to validate these tests for HIV screening. The Department of Health is now in the process of training staff in the use of these tests and the interpretation of results, especially in rural areas where there are no trained personnel and complicated laboratory equipment. The second area of our focus is the treatment of opportunistic infections, such as pneumonia, diarrhoea, skin infections, fungal infections, and so on. It has been shown in many countries that if opportunistic infections are diagnosed early and managed rigorously, people who are HIV-positive do become well, and can lead longer and productive lives.

The Department of Health has developed clinical guidelines for the management of opportunistic infections, guidelines based on drugs that are currently available on the essential drug list. Our health care providers are familiar with the use of these drugs, and are best positioned to counsel patients on issues of compliance, side effects and the monitoring of any complication.

The dual epidemic of HIV and TB presents a complex challenge for the country. Let me emphasise, though, that TB is curable, even in people who are HIV-positive. The incidence of TB in South Africa is very high: 283 per 100 000 people. However, at present, nearly 50% of those with TB also have the HIV virus.

We are acutely aware that failure to control the TB epidemic will seriously undermine any intervention to control the HIV and Aids epidemic.

As the epidemic matures, more and more people will be presented for care at our facilities. Worse affected provinces like KwaZulu-Natal are already reporting high rates of bed occupancy by people seeking treatment for Aids and related illnesses. Occupancy is as high as 50% in some medical wards.

This has major implications for future health planning, therefore there is an urgent need for us to find creative and sustainable ways of providing care for people in their families and communities. In order to prevent the collapse of the health system, we must strengthen communities to ensure that home-based care does not translate into home neglect. To ensure this, the Department of Health has been working with several NGOs to design and pilot a system of home-based care in South Africa, not only for those who are infected or affected by HIV and Aids, but also for those who need chronic care.

These models have been partially costed by the department, which is now in the process of refining them. Provinces will adapt these models to their own circumstances. Home-based care is not inferior care for those who cannot take care of themselves. Rather, it is a system designed to ensure continuity of care from the home up to the highest level. In fact Canada, which is a highly developed country, has a highly developed network of home- based care that is totally integrated into the health care system.

The national HIV Aids unit spends about R20 million annually, funding NGOs who provide health education, life-skills training, home-based care programmes and so on. The challenges of providing the antiretroviral drugs in the public health system are manifold. Apart from the prohibitive costs, several key areas need to be developed.

The use of these drugs - and I would like this side to listen more carefully now - requires competence in accurately diagnosing Aids-related illnesses, laboratory support to monitor patients’ response to the drugs on a regular basis and a supportive environment that promotes adherence to therapy, as well as early recognition of complications.

Asazi ke nokuba abo babhobhozayo bayayilandela na le nkqubo. [We are not even sure that those who have a lot to say are actually following the procedure.]

We also need a good laboratory infrastructure, to monitor and evaluate the use of antiretroviral drugs. Currently, we do not have the infrastructure to provide voluntary counselling and HIV testing, measurement of CD4 counts and viral loads in every corner of the country.

It would, therefore, be foolish to introduce a comprehensive antiretroviral programme without this infrastructure. These are significant considerations because, quite clearly, the premature introduction of this drug, as we see in the Western Cape, into an ill-equiped health care system, can easily lead to poor compliance and the emergence of resistant virus strain.

I would like to highlight the fact that Aids is more than a medical condition, hence its proper management needs a broader outlook. The fourth priority is to deal decisively with the discrimination that continues against those who are living with HIV and Aids. There is deep-seated prejudice among our people against those who are infected with HIV as a result, our communities - and even families - do not know how to deal with those who are living with Aids.

The strategic plan recognises this fact and identifies the need to educate our communities, not only about the disease and its causal link with HIV, but to teach our people about how to treat fellow South Africans in a humane manner, regardless of their HIV status. Therefore, we will continue to promote a human rights culture in the treatment of those who are infected and affected by HIV and Aids.

Unless we prepare the societal environment to accept those amongst us who are living with Aids, there will be no safe environment for anyone to declare their HIV status and hope to be treated in a compassionate manner. I am sure that the House will agree with me that working together, we are well placed to meet this challenge.

This year the Cabinet approved R75 million for the Departments of Health, Education and Welfare to, amongst other things, develop and implement a life-skills programme at schools, to empower young people with skills that would assist them to overcome peer pressure and take decisions to prevent the spread of HIV. Young learners will also be encouraged to volunteer as peer counsellors because this method, where young people counsel one another, has proved to be very effective.

In conclusion, our message to our people is: Abstain from sex for as long as possible; be faithful to one partner; if you must have sex, use a condom to protect yourself from sexually transmitted diseases and HIV infection. That is what we mean. [Applause.].

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, I would like to start off my address in today’s debate by quoting a story I read in the newspaper about two weeks ago. It is a story about a snake. [Interjections.]

A Ugandan person said that in the African culture when there is a snake in the house, we first kill the snake and then worry about whether it was poisonous or not. But in South Africa, in handling the HIV/Aids pandemic, the snake is already in the house and we are still debating whether it is poisonous or not. [Interjections.]

The HIV/Aids debate has been sensationalised …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! What is your point of order, hon Hangana?

Ms N E HANGANA: Madam Speaker, it is that the hon member must not misinterpret my culture, because according to my culture I do not kill a snake, I respect a snake. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! That is not a point of order. Proceed, hon Kalyan.

Mrs S V KALYAN: For the hon member’s benefit, I was using an analogy, a fact she obviously does not understand.

The academic debate has sown seeds of confusion, and if one adds to this a fragmented anti-Aids campaign, the focus is one of distraction away from coherent prevention and management of the pandemic. This epidemic is spreading like wildfire, and the most important lesson that we can all learn from it is that we should rather seek political leadership and support, as opposed to political interference. A good starting point would be to re-establish partnerships. Our hon President spoke about a partnership in 1998. Unfortunately, it has now fallen away. We should look at re-establishing it, and the starting point should be SADC, which is now becoming a political football. The Thailand example demonstrates that a programme stands the greatest chance of success in its development and implementation. The Government must rethink its strategy and depoliticise the pandemic.

The other strategy would be to dispell myths. HIV causes Aids. Other hon members can object as much as they like to the stickers we have, but in everyone’s mind, HIV causes Aids. Work from that premise, then the rest of the plan to curb infection becomes relatively straightforward. There are so many illiterate people, and indulging in academic debate on what constitutes a syndrome does not reach the person at grass-roots level. [Interjections.]

With regard to testing, there is a myth that HIV tests are not accurate. In fact, the Elisa test is 99% accurate. What more is needed? The poor people who are HIV-positive or who are living with Aids are double-damned, both by their poverty and by the Government’s attitude that it will not provide antiretroviral medication.

With regard to vaccination, the Medical Research Council has recently announced that human trials are set to begin soon. It is rather ambitious in that they are setting themselves a three-to-five-year target. It is unfortunate - and I would like to address this directly to those persons who are HIV-positive and living with Aids. They have seen our Minister of Health wave her hands and shake her head dismissively at any suggestions of working in co-operation to curb the pandemic. Her childish antics and lack of serious commitment are one of the main reasons the HIV/Aids andemic is spiralling out of control.

It is also quite shocking to note the reaction of the majority party towards the debate. I honestly do not know how those who support the dissident view, or are in agreement with withholding antiretroviral therapy, face their constituents and families that are facing death. [Interjections.] I will not sit down just because I am told to do so! [Applause.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, HIV/Aids is a complex phenomenon or problem which should be approached with caution. Simplistic formulas or answers should be avoided.

However, the question of what causes Aids cannot be avoided. There is clearly overwhelming evidence that HIV causes Aids. It is, however, the responsibility of scientific and medical researchers to establish what causes Aids. It is not the work of politicians to establish scientific theories and to try and defend them. Politicians have the overall responsibility to save lives. I do not understand why our President has become the chief spokesman for one of the schools of thoughts, whilst our population is being decimated by this vicious HIV/Aids pandemic.

The estimates and forecasts about our future are frightening. The HIV/Aids pandemic continues to sweep through our people at an alarming rate. We have over four million HIV-positive people and approximately 1 700 people who get infected every single day. Death rates are escalating, and, every year, 100 000 babies, most of whom die within five years, are are infected at birth through their mothers.

Fifty thousand babies per year could be saved by two tiny drugs, AZT and Nevirapine. The PAC suggests that we abandon the R32 million arms deal and develop the infrastructure needed to fight poverty, deprivation, malnutrition, unemployment, and HIV/Aids. We should abandon the odious apartheid debt, and import cheap generic drugs from Thailand, India and Brazil. This will be used to help millions who are HIV-positive and have been left, at present on the battlefield to die.

We intend to help the youth to develop a new Africanist morality as a long- term answer to conquering this pandemic.

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, in die jaar 1859 het ‘n sinode van die Gereformeerde Kerk die volgende besluit geneem: Heden besloten dat de aarde voortaan niet meer draaien zal.'' In Engels beteken dit:Today we have decided that in future the earth will rotate no more.’’ Gaan ons vandag ook iets soortgelyk notuleer? ``Heden besloten dat MIV voortaan nie meer vigs sal veroorsaak nie’’! Wat was die fout? Die manne op daardie sinode het gefouteer omdat hulle buite hulle terrein beweeg het, omdat teoloë hulle lyf fisikus gehou het.

Vandag gebeur dieselfde omdat politici hulle lyf wetenskaplike hou. Vir ‘n parlement om te debatteer oor wat dit is wat ‘n bepaalde siekte veroorsaak, grens aan die absurde. President Mbeki het ‘n nagtelike wandeling of twee deur die Internet onderneem, en nou moet ‘n wetgewende vergadering oor die oorsaak van ‘n siekte debatteer.

Ja, daar kan in die wetenskap verskil van mening wees, want ook die wetenskap is nie volmaak nie. Wat is dan die taak van ons as politici? Dit is eenvoudig om die heersend geldende standpunt te aanvaar, wetenskaplik en deskundig te laat kontroleer en dan daarvolgens te handel. As Lyndon B Johnson eers besluit het om ‘n privaatstudie oor die hemelligame te onderneem en sy besluite daarop te grond het die Amerikaners nooit ‘n man op die maan gekry nie.

Natuurlik is daar eksterne faktore wat kan bydra tot die verspreiding van vigs, naamlik armoede en ‘n lae lewenspeil, maar dieselfde is waar van ander siektes soos malaria en cholera. Gaan ons daarom nou sê een muskiet kan nie ‘n epidemie veroorsaak nie, en ons moet die oorsaak op ‘n ander plek gaan soek?

Ja, in die stryd teen vigs moet lewensomstandighede verbeter word, maar boweal moet lewensmoraal verbeter word. As nie-wetenskaplike hou ek my by my lees. Ons moet die heersende wetenskaplike teorie aanvaar, en daarmee saam ook dat seksuele losbandigheid die teelaarde vir MIV en daarom vigs is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, in the year 1859 a synod of the Reformed Church took the following decision: Heden besloten dat de aarde voortaan niet meer draaien zal.'' In English this means:Today we have decided that in future the earth will rotate no more.’’ Are we going to place something similar on record today? ``Today we have decided that in future HIV will cause Aids no more’’! What was the mistake? The men serving in that synod erred because they moved outside their own sphere, because theologists deemed themselves physicists.

Today, the same thing is happening because politicians are regarding themselves as scientists. For a parliament to debate about what causes a certain illness borders on the absurd. President Mbeki undertook a nocturnal surf or two on the Internet, and now a legislative assembly must debate the cause of an illness.

Yes, in science there can be a difference of opinion, because science is not perfect either. What, then, is the task of us as politicians? It is simply to accept the dominant prevailing point of view, to have it controlled scientifically and expertly and to act accordingly. If Lyndon B Johnson had decided to first embark on a private study of the celestial bodies and to base his decisions on that, the Americans would never have landed a man on the moon.

Of course there are external factors which can contribute to the spreading of aids, namely poverty and a low standard of living, but the same is true of other illnesses such as malaria and cholera. Therefore, are we now saying that one mosquito cannot cause an epidemic, and that we should seek the cause somewhere else?

Yes, in the struggle against Aids living conditions must be improved, but above all the morality of people’s lifestyles. As a nonscientist I must stick to what I know. We must accept the prevailing scientific theory, and with that the fact that sexual promiscuity is the breeding ground for HIV and therefore Aids.]

Perhaps the most important answer is not, in the first instance, to condomise, but to evangelise - to go back to the basic religious principle of a monogamous marriage between one man and one woman, as the only God- given sphere for full sexual expression.

I conclude by congratulating Dr Rabinowitz for the best speech of the day.

Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, at some point in my early twenties, when I was full of ideas and thought I knew everything, I said something to the effect that people should not be so convinced about the existence of God, since no one has seen God and nobody can prove his existance. In shock, dismay and exasperation my God-fearing mother said: Son, you also cannot prove that God does not exist''. After saying a lot more things, she said as a parting shot:Do you not think it would be a devastating tragedy if you were to persist with your attitude only to discover after your death that God actually exists?’’ [Interjections.]

There is a sense in which this debate reminds one of that brief encounter. None of us in this House is a practicing scientist who can go into a laboratory and prove or disprove any of the assertions we are making. All we are doing is politicising a deadly medical condition which is devastating to millions of our people. What practicing scientist, orthodox or dissident, agrees that there is something called HIV and another something called Aids? What they are arguing about is whether HIV leads to Aids. Whatever the case may be, we know that it is very clever indeed to protect ourselves against HIV. What is cool about this is that when we do that, we also protect ourselves against other sexually transmitted diseases and prevent unplanned pregnancies.

Our congratulations go the Medical Research Council and their scientists, who developed a candidate vaccine against HIV, and to those scientist who worked on the Pretoria pasteurisation project aimed at reducing mother-to- child HIV transmission through breast-feeding. We hope the vaccine succeeds and that their ground breaking work will lead to the defeat of HIV/Aids. In the meantime, let us all protect ourselves against HIV. [Applause.]

Mrs S F BALOYI: Chairperson, I wish to address the subject of mother-to- child transmission of HIV. Amongst the many challenges brought by this pandemic, the prevention of HIV transmission from mother to child is probably the most complex.

Firstly, let me explain what mother-to-child transmission is. Our goal is to prevent the transmission of HIV from an HIV-positive mother to the child, and to assist the mother to sustain the HIV-negative status of the child until the child has been weaned.

In South Africa there are approximately 1,2 million babies born every year. The HIV prevalance amongst pregnant women is approximately 24%. Out of every 10 HIV-positive mothers, approximately three will give birth to an HIV-positive child. To my mind the prevention of mother-to-child transmission goes beyond the use of drugs that prevent the virus from being transmitted to the child during birth. The mother must be supported in order for her to bring up a healthy baby and to maintain the HIV-negative status of her baby.

This is a significant challenge because although drugs such as Nevirapine do prevent the transmission of HIV when given during labour, these babies can subsequently get infected during breast-feeding, which may result in the reversal of the gains made by the provision of the drug in the first place. Therein lie our concerns. We have looked at various options to prevent transmission of the virus from mother to child. The two candidate drugs we are looking at are AZT and Nevirapine. However, Nevirapine seems to be more affordable. The latest reports from trials in Uganda and South Africa on the use of Nevirapine have brought some hope to developing countries. The relatively low cost of the drug, as well as its ease of administration, makes its an ideal option for us.

The challenges relating to the use of Nevirapine, however, are not confined to cost only. Several questions still remain unanswered. These include the long-term safety profile of the drug, the development of resistance from even a single dose of the drug, and the challenge of finding sustainable infant feeding options for HIV mothers.

In order to show that this Government is concerned about the plight of HIV- positive women, we have expanded the current research sites on the use of Nevirapine to prevent the transmission of HIV from mother to child by a minimum of two sites per province.

Njengamanje izikhungo ezimbili zalolu cubungulo zizoqala eMpumalanga, eNkomazi nasesifundeni sase-Highveld, okukhona kuso iSecunda, iBethal neMbalenhle. Kanti-ke nezinye izifundazwe nazo zizokwenza kanjalo maqede kukhulunyiswane nezigungu zongqongqoshe bazo. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[At the moment two research sites regarding this investigation will be opened in Mpumalanga, Nkomazi and in the district of the Highveld, under which Secunda, Bethal and Mbalenhle fall.

Other provinces will do the same, after which there will be discussion with Ministers in those provinces.]

Furthermore, from 11 until 13 October 2000, the World Health Organisation will be holding a meeting to discuss the use of nevirapine in the prevention of mother-to-child transmission. This will provide further light to the developing countries on that drug with regard to the unanswered questions that I referred to.

We are equally aware that the Medicines Control Council is still reviewing the application for the registration of Nevirapine to prevent mother-to- child transmission. We believe that this process must take its course and that neither Government nor civil society should interfere in this scientific process.

I would like to bring to the attention of this House the fact that merely providing the drug Nevirapine will not deal decisively with the problem of mother-to-child transmission. What we must focus on is providing a package of care in order to ensure that the mother stays well and asymptomatic for a long time, and that her baby is HIV-free and healthy.

The Department of Health has developed guidelines on management of pregnant HIV-positive mothers. These guidelines focus on effective obstetric interventions which can reduce the transmission of HIV. Some of these include the rigorous treatment of opportunistic infections with a special focus on sexually transmitted diseases, keeping the woman’s membranes intact during labour in order to limit the chances of infection and prohibiting routine use of invasive interventions such as routine episiotomies as well as invasive monitoring of the foetus. This is merely to prevent tissue damage that can cause the transmission.

As mentioned before, we are concerned about the effects of breast-feeding by an HIV-positive mother on her child. Therefore, we must address the challenges relating to instant formula feeding. To some, the provision of infant formula to HIV-positive mothers may seem to be an easy option, but the reality is that not all South Africans have access to clean water and sanitation. Despite Government’s effort to tackle these problems, there are still eight million South Africans who have no easy access to water. Members will appreciate that any strategy to provide instant formula feed has to be complemented by the provision of clean drinkable water, especially, in the rural areas, and this does not even take into account financial problems.

We also need to develop support systems for HIV-positive mothers to give them the best advice on breast-feeding and allow them to make the best choices, given their circumstances.

These women also need to be supported within the families and communities where they live because some may suffer persecution in their own cultural environment. Many of the members know that women who choose not to breast- feed their babies are given names in some African societies. One also does not want to create a situation where women who give their children instant formula feed are labelled HIV-positive. We are monitoring our TV programme carefully because we think that the implementation of this programme will have lessons for us in the delivery of an antiretroviral programme to prevent mother-to-child transmission. Any mother-to-child prevention programme must also promote equal access to health services for all women, regardless of race, colour, creed or geographical location.

Finally, we must realise that a mother-to-child transmission programme is an attempt to fix what has already been broken.

Let us remember the old adage that prevention is better than cure.

The ANC has a special programme and a special message, especially for young people. The message is: Abstain from sex. Young boys and girls must delay engaging in sexual activity. Everyone, young and old, must be faithful to just one partner and condomise. They must please remember to use a condom in order to prevent the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases. They must remember that real men use condoms. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairman, I want to say that, quite frankly, listening to this debate has reminded me of the classic quote from Gen Foch, after the first battle of Marne in 1914. He said: ``My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, situation excellent, I am attacking.’’ This is exactly what the situation is with regard to the ANC’s HIV/Aids policies and stance. Their position is weak, they have been criticised throughout the world and throughout this country, and yet they continue to propagate vague and dangerous arguments and dig themselves deeper and deeper into the mire which will eventually swallow them. [Interjections.]

The ANC in this debate, quite frankly, have been shocking, led by that academic genius, Dr Nkomo, and aided and abetted by ANC members in this House who have, quite frankly, behaved atrociously. [Interjections.] The ANC will reap what they sow. The nation would have seen, on television today, a ruling party trying to defend themselves against an indefensible policy in an unruly and meaningless fashion, which is a little better than mob rule. I want to say to Dr Nkomo’s after his speech today, that if he went back to medical school today, he would undoubtedly fail. That is absolutely clear. [Interjections.]

However, the hon Dr Nkomo said that what the hon Leader of the Opposition had to say about AZT being offered at cheap prices was false. The hon Leader of the Opposition made it quite clear that AZT is offered at cheap prices in this country. I want to tell Dr Nkomo that I have a letter here which states quite clearly that ``there was a UN initiative in which five drug companies, including Glaxo Wellcome, offered drugs at a reduced rate, and they are offering a combination of AZT plus free TC at two dollars a day’’.

I want to ask Dr Nkomo whether that is not cheap? Let me tell him that he must make no error about the fact that the DP will continue the fight for cheaper drugs in this country. [Interjections.] But Dr Nkomo has misled the House again by indicating or suggesting that the hon Leader of the Opposition did not say this. [Interjections.] I hope he is not going to waste his time by asking me a question, sir. [Interjections.] I want to say to Dr Nkomo to put that in his pipe abnd smoke it. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members!

Dr A S NKOMO: Chairperson, Mr Ellis deliberately presents the wrong information. We are not talking about cheap prices, we are talking about the matter of AZT and victims of rape. He must not run away from the matter. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Nkomo, please take your seat. Proceed, hon member. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairman, I have noticed with concern that my time has been going on while Dr Nkomo has been wasting it. I sincerely hope you will give me a few more minutes, sir. But I want to be honest about this matter. The reason for the behaviour of the ANC today is because they are embarrassed. They are embarrassed by their President’s views on HIV/Aids and they are embarrassed by the lack of leadership that the hon the Minister of Health is giving to this fight against HIV/Aids. [Interjections.]

I want to say to the hon the Minister that when she became Minister of Health the nation was delighted. We were all aware of the stance she had taken against the previous Minister of Health and her innocuous and meaningless plans to fight the spread of HIV/Aids. She was her own person and we respected her for it. But I want to say to her that she has been a great disappointment. She has become a little more than a messenger, and a messenger bearing bad news. We want her to be her own person again. We want her to become the President’s adviser on health matters, including HIV/Aids. [Interjections.] We do not want her to be his messenger, we want her to be the Minister of Health. We want her to be at the forefront of a positive proactive campaign against the spread of HIV/Aids in this country. She must please do this country a favour. She must get out and lead and, she must please, for the sake of the nation, stop being led. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Mr Chairperson, if I was not a disappointment to the DP, something would have been drastically wrong with me!

I am surprised at how the DP is clamouring for the ANC to pronounce itself on the subject of Aids, when they have been warming the benches of this Parliament, as the official opposition to the NP when HIV came to South Africa. [Interjections.] During those years, they were conspicuous by their silence. Where were they? Babe phi? Babesenza ni? (What were they doing?) Siyabuza? (We are asking) [Interjections.] Babesenza ni? (What were they doing?)

I have just heared, today, that that party, in the very near future, will be launching its policy on Aids. I say welcome to the party, although they have joined the bandwagon seven years after sitting on the fence in this democratic Parliament, except for involving themselves in mad debates and sensationalising debates in the media.

I sincerely hope that the DP’s policy is in line with the strategic plan for South Africa on HIV/Aids and STDs. There is one plan for our country. This plan was developed through a democratic and consultative process. I hope that the DP’s plan will not confuse us.

I have the great honour to conclude this debate. I stand here very conscious of the expectations of the majority of the people of our country. That expectation is simply that we continue to work hard and remain focused on the important challenge of confronting the scourge of the HIV/Aids which has brought so much pain to many in all the corners of our land. For this multitude, there is no time for petty bickering. [Interjections.] The ANC refuses to be drawn into that mud. [Interjections. It is to these men and women that we owe a duty to serve loyally and with honesty.

Our country has just recently had the honour to host the 13th international conference on HIV/Aids. A key lesson from that meeting is that a strategic focus on prevention remains the fundamental bedrock of an appropriate and successful anti-HIV/Aids campaign.

We are encouraged by that message, as it accords with our approach that is captured in the simple ABC message. [Interjections.] Let me, once more, clearly spell out that message to the public. It is: Abstain from sex for as long as possible; be faithful to your sexual partner, and, if you cannot do any of the two, use a condom.

It is this simple message that should resonate in every corner of our country. It is a message that needs to be carried, particularly, to our youth, our leaders of tomorrow.

In the past year, the national Department of Health alone spent around R40 million to support the programme of ensuring easy access to condoms by the public. [Interjections.] We are, in addition to the male condoms, continuing to support pilot sites aimed at introducing female condoms whilst also continuing to support research on other effective microbicides. These interventions will go a long way in providing women with effective tools they themselves can use to ensure their necessary protection.

It is also to strengthen this effort that this Government introduced the HIV-policy for learners and educators which has led to the inclusion of life-skills programmes as a compulsory part of the curriculum in our schools. Implementation of this is now extending from secondary schools to cover primary schools. In excess of R60 million, this year alone, is being spent on supporting this programme.

We call on all parents to support this initiative as a necessary intervention aimed at saving the future of our children. It is important that we all understand that the earlier we start these interventions, the greater the likelihood of sustained success.

Let us also remember that by heeding this simple message, we shall simultaneously address two other problems that this Government is tackling as a matter of priority, and these are: Teenage pregnancies and the spread of other sexually transmitted diseases.

We are encouraged by the evidence which points to some successes we are registering since the introduction of syndromes management for the treatment of sexually transmitted diseases. This is evidenced by a nearly 50% reduction in the prevalence of syphilis in our country as measured during our annual antenatal surveys between 1994 and 1999. This is a reduction from 12% to 6,5%.

To build on this, we recently approached the Health Professions Council of South Africa with a request to include a module on the treatment of sexually transmitted diseases as a compulsory component of the continuing professional development programme system to ensure early and appropriate treatment of sexually transmitted diseases by our health professionals.

We are also working closely with the mining industry on the very successful work in Welkom and Carletonville in the management of sexually transmitted diseases. We are convinced that, through these multipronged efforts, we shall ultimately break the back of the contribution made by STDs in the rapid spread of HIV.

Those of us engaged in practical work know that it takes a lot of effort to convey this simple message. It takes an even greater effort to translate acquired knowledge into behavioural change. However, we shall go on because we know that in this battle, there shall be no easy victories. Our comfort comes from the knowledge that many South Africans have heeded our call to build enduring partnerships.

The very fact of the existence of the South African National Aids Council and the reality of the existence of provincial Aids councils, at least in eight provinces, is an eloquent testimony to the growing movement in our country inspired by the simple recognition that all our actions count.

Last Saturday I had the privilege of taking part in the inauguration of the provincial Aids council in the North West, and just yesterday I was in Welkom for the celebration of the second anniversary of the partnership which, hon members will recall, was launced by the then Deputy President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki in 1998. Neither the New NP nor the DP was present. Where were they? All they know is how to speak here in the corridors of Parliament. [Interjections.] That is why hon Kalym? does not even know about the strength of the partnerships. Please read the hon the Deputy President’s speech. [Interjections.] On both occasions I was part of …

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, is the hon the Minister entitled to mislead Parliament, deliberately? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I cannot say that she is misleading Parliament.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, she knows that she is, and if she is honest enough, she will haul out the letter which she received from the hon the Leader of the Opposition and she will apologise for telling lies to Parliament. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Gibson, that can be sorted out between yourself and the Minister. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson …

Dr S J GOUS: Chairperson, on behalf of the New NP I wish to put it on record that we were not invited. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Continue, hon Minister. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, on both occasions, what I was part of were events demonstrating South Africans at work and mobilising to confront a major challenge. There was no passing of the buck, no moaning, but simply a common call to action by people who know clearly what it takes to succeed

• hard work, commitment, and the holding of hands across the divide.

That is my enduring picture of our people, and it is what inspires us, whatever the difficulties and whatever the pain. Our Government once again reaffirms its commitment to being a constructive partner in this multisectoral effort.

Let me deal with an area on which there have been blatant lies and deliberate misconceptions. It concerns the allegation that we are not addressing the issue of the treatment of those already infected. The hon Mrs Njobe has already dealt with this, but let me add a few points, just for the record.

Firstly, our five year strategic framework, which guides our actions, identifies this as an area of specific focus for the whole country.

Secondly, we released earlier this year guidelines for the treatment of opportunistic infections, which are being incrementally implemented in the country, attended by the necessary training. These guidelines cover all the main conditions which account for the bulk of the mortality and morbidity of those living with HIV and Aids.

Thirdly, it is common knowledge that TB is one of the most common infections associated with HIV infection in our country. We have also previously reported to this House on progress that we are making and will continue to make in the care of those with TB in the presence of HIV infection. The WHO has even recognised this progress of our TB programme.

Yet, in spite of all this effort, we still get the same message that we are not treating those infected with HIV, quite frankly because we are not using antiretrovirals within the public health system.

We shall not tire to once more declare the policy of this Government.

In 1998, the World Health Organisation reported that HIV, malaria and tuberculosis combined claimed 5 million lives. Therefore, we cannot ignore risk factors such as tuberculosis, malaria, poverty and poor nutrition which undermine the immune system and predispose people people to HIV infection.

We shall continue to treat those who present themselves to the public health system for any condition as best as we can and within the resource constraints we face regardless of their HIV status. At the same time, we reiterate that, as a country, we simply cannot afford the use of antiretrovirals for wide-scale treatment at the current prices. We reiterate that our approach is consistent with that of many other countries in the world and is backed by the solid scientific evidence which indicates that early and aggressive treatment of opportunistic infections leads to a prolonged good quality and fully productive life.

Our appeal to our people is for them not to be discouraged by the prophets of doom. They must come early to report any ailment they have, and the public health system is ready and able to be of assistance to them. I also take this opportunity to call on our health workers to discharge their duties with a consistent approach and in a nondiscriminatory manner.

My department has commissioned work on the impact of HIV/Aids on the health system. Preliminary results will be available during the first week of November. We shall use this as we proceed to plan for appropriate interventions, including the role and extent of home-based care initiatives. At the same time, we shall continue to engage the major pharmaceutical companies, as part of the international effort, to ensure affordable access to drugs by people in the developing world. Also, contrary to the propaganda by our detractors, our discussions with Pfizer on the provision of Fluconazole for cryptococcal meningitis are progressing well, indeed.

Finally, let me underline that HIV/Aids is, indeed, a complex disease entity on which we do not know everything. We shall continue to act on the basis of what we know and within the limits of our resources. But we shall also continue to search for answers to the many unresolved questions. To us, there is no other path. At stake is everything we have fought for.

It is not arrogance that makes us, on occasions such as this, assert, once more, that no true account of our people’s valiant efforts, over nearly the past 100 hundred years, will fail to locate the ANC at the pivotal centre of those efforts. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

The MINISTER: As always, we shall not fail our country.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Mr Chairman, is the hon the Minister prepared to take a question?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Will you take a question hon Minister?

The MINISTER: Chairperson, tomorrow is question day. He can then put his question tomorrow in writing. [Interjections.]

We shall be making a statement in this House on the co-ordination of our response as a nation to the epidemic through the various councils. We will also indicate the amount of resources we have mobilised and injected in the fight against HIV/Aids to indicate that there is no postponement in our response, as hon Rabinowitz would like us to believe. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Minister, just remain at the podium.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, on point of order: Earlier on, I used an unparliamentary phrase which I should not have used. You obviously did not hear me and you did not call me.

The CHAIPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I heard you. That is why I asked the Minister to wait at the Podium because I wanted to call you.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, I wish to withdraw the word ``lies’’ unreservedly. The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Mr Gibson, furthermore, you know that it is out of order to refer to a member as deliberately making that kind of statement.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, of course, I was disingenous. I withdraw the words ``deliberately mislead’’.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, Mr Gibson. Thank you, hon Minister. He has withdrawn the words and you can now take your seat. [Applause.]

Order! Hon members, I would like to plead with and request the Table to request the technicians of Parliament to look at the sound system in the House. It is very bad.

Secondly, if one looks at the screens inside the Chamber, one can hardly read the names of the members as they appear on the screen. The pictures are also very bad. We will definitely appreciate it if the technicians could look at that.

Debate concluded.

SOUTH AFRICAN RAIL COMMUTER CORPORATION LIMITED FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Mr Chairperson, I see that hon member looking at me. I am M E Tshabalala, and not Minister Omar.

The House will recall that, during the debate on the National Land Transport Transition Bill on 19 June 2000, the Minister of Transport had indicated that his department, in collaboration with the Department of Finance, was in the process of addressing the funding crisis in the transport industry, and that the first step would be the takeover of the total debt of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation Ltd, for which legislation would be required. That legislation is before this House today for debate.

The Bill is designed to give effect to an earlier Cabinet decision to take over the loan debt of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation Ltd, withdraw its borrowing powers, except for bridging finance, and to put its annual capital needs on the budget of the national Department of Transport. Since its establishment in 1990, the corporation has been obliged to fund its capital needs, and before 1993, also part of its operational needs by borrowing money. Perhaps I should remind the House that the corporation provides socioeconomic services on a subsidised basis to the poorest of the poor. The fare revenue is thus not sufficient to cover operational and capital costs, and therefore, if the full shortfall is not forthcoming from Government, it has to make up the difference by borrowing. The amount of the debt and the nett liabilities of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation Ltd currently amount to R2 500 million.

As reported previously in this House, the national Department of Transport and the corporation are involved in a number of initiatives to increase efficiency, rationalise services and reduce dependency on outside funds. These include concessioning of certain services and a rationalisation of all public transport services in terms of the National Land Transport Transition Act of 2000. It is envisaged that a pilot project will be done in the Eastern Gauteng Regional Services Council area which will represent approximately 8% of the total commuter rail business.

The legislation, which will allow Government to borrow the money to cover the corporation’s debt and approve payment and transfer of this money to the corporation to offset the debt, must therefore be tabled. As indicated, an amount of R2 281 million will be taken over whilst remainder of the R219 million, representing non-interest-bearing debts such as creditors, will be appropriated through the normal budget processes.

The Bill also amends the Legal Succession to the SA Transport Services Act of 1989 by removing the borrowing powers of the corporation on a date to be determined by the national Minister of Transport in consultation with the national Minister of Finance. As indicated by the Minister of Transport earlier, the corporation will retain the right to borrow for the purpose of bridging finance, but it will be subjected to the maximum amounts approved, from time to time, by the national Minister of Finance.

I know that certain concerns were raised in the Portfolio Committee on Transport regarding the fact that no limitation has been placed on the amount which the Minister of Finance may approve.

In the light of the nature of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation Ltd, being an entity owned by the state and providing a highly subsidised social service, it follows that the state will have to decide whether it stands behind the corporation in the event of circumstances necessitating new debt.

The Minister of Finance will not approve bridging finance without the necessary motivation, and if circumstances should necessitate additional borrowings, the Minister will need to take into account all the surrounding facts.

The section which was questioned by certain members of the portfolio committee was only intended to provide for the day-to-day bridging finance which will be repaid from cash flow sources as reflected in the SARCC’s cash flow projection. In the event that additional debt needs to be repaid by the corporation, it will only be done with the assistance of the state, as the corperation would have no resources from which to repay such debt.

Before I close, I would like once again to refer to the Government’s responsibility to provide transport for the poor. With regard to commuter rail which is the most affordable of all commuter services, our ability to deliver is constrained by the fact that the rail system has been starved of investment for many, many years. The railway stock is ageing and outdated in design, and even more seriously, the current network does not serve our fastest growing areas. It desperately needs an injection of new capital and new commercial skills to enable us to get the best out of the system.

The SARCC should never have been put in a position to borrow, and I see this taking-over of the debt as the first step in addressing the funding crisis in the commuter rail industry.

I would like to conclude by thanking the members of the National Assembly for their lively debates, their constant support and their guidance on transport issues and specifically on this Bill. I do this on behalf of my colleague, Mr Omar. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members! I just want to announce to the House that the Minister of Health was requested by the Minister of Transport to introduce this Bill on his behalf. He is not in the House today. Mr M J ELLIS: The Minister is doing a better job in Transport than she does in Health.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: The hon Mike Ellis, order!

Mr S PILLAY: Chairperson, I just wish to begin by pointing out that the DP, the New NP and the FA constitute the Democratic Alliance. We support this Bill. In terms of the Bill, the central Government is to take over a debt of R2,281 billion from the SA Rail Commuter Corporation. This is indeed a huge sum of money and without the bail-out extended by Government, the SA Rail Commuter Corporation would not be able to function.

In its mission statement the SA Rail Commuter Corporation boldly declares that it subscribes to sound business principles. Therefore it is imperative that the SARCC manages its finances in such a manner that it does not have to return to Government for another bail-out.

Owing to the skills shortage currently experienced in South Africa the corporation is exposed to the risks related to the loss of human capital in a manner similar to other companies in South Africa. Therefore, the SARCC needs to invest more in the training sector to ensure that its skills needs are acquired. Without the necessary skills we are going to have a repeat of this bail-out process.

We need to point out that the following matters must be considered. Over 2 million passengers make use of commuter trains daily, and for this enterprise to be successful and profitable, it needs specific skills. I might point out at this stage that if ever there was an argument for the privatisation of the SARCC, its current plig ht presents a watertight case.

The amounts allowed by the hon the Minister of Finance for bridging finance according to clause 1(c), do not create a situation in terms of which the management of the SARCC can give a repeat performance of wanting and expecting to be bailed out again. Sound business principles dictate that if the SARCC incurs any future debt it will need to make provision for its repayment.

Passengers anticipate a commuter system free from crime and free from all manner of stress. It is the duty of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation to provide such a service. We trust that the hon the Minister will ensure that the necessary mechanisms are put in place to ensure the safety of passengers from criminals.

An efficient commuter system is highly desirable for several reasons, including those that affect the improvement of the lives of ordinary commuters who depend on such forms of transport and those that affect the general environment. The continual increments in the price of fuel should also serve as an incentive to ensure that the SARCC provides an affordable mode of transport, especially for the unemployed and low-wage earners. If the service provided by the SARCC is user-friendly and safe, more people will opt to use such a service. It could also, therefore, lead to a reduction in road accidents.

In conclusion, we trust that the hon the Minister will develop plans for monitoring the effectiveness of the management systems of both operating divisions, Metrorail and Intersite Property Management Services, of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation.

Mr J H SLABBERT: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, the South African Rail Commuter Corporation Limited Financial Arrangements Bill before us today is, to my mind, not a controversial Bill at all. It really needs very little debate, if any at all.

The Bill was discussed thoroughly in the portfolio committee, backwards and forwards, and consensus was reached by all parties. Although the Bill has been introduced by the hon the Minister of Transport, it was developed jointly with the hon the Ministers of Finance and of Public Enterprises.

Na my mening is die wetsontwerp hoofsaaklik administratief van aard omdat dit hoofsaaklik bepaal dat die finansiële verpligtinge van die korporasie nou deur die staat oorgeneem gaan word, en terselfdertyd word die korporasie se reg om vanself lenings aan te gaan teruggetrek.

Die korporasie sal voortaan slegs met die goedkeuring van die Minister van Finansies, soos van tyd tot tyd bepaal, die reg hê om slegs vir oorbrugging kapitaal te leen tot die bedrag deur die Minister bepaal, wat dan daarna deur die korporasie self terugbetaal moet word.

Die IVP wil net waarsku dat hierdie beleid nie algemene praktyk moet word nie, want dan kan die situasie dalk hand-uit ruk. Die korporasie sal dus voortaan vir sy kapitaalbenodighede in totaal afhanklik wees vir wat hy gaan ontvang uit die nasionale begroting van Vervoer, en ons vertrou dat die korporasie se dienslewering en prestasies fyn dopgehou sal word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In my opinion the Bill is mainly of an administrative nature, because it mainly provides that the financial responsibilities of the corporation will henceforth be taken over by the state, and at the same time the corporation’s right to negotiate loans is being withdrawn.

Henceforth the corporation will only be allowed, with the approval of the Minister of Finance, to borrow money for bridging finance up to the amount determined by the Minister from time to time, and then the corporation itself must repay the loan.

The IFP only wants to warn that this policy must not become common practice, because the situation can get out of hand. Thus the corporation will henceforth, with regard to its capital needs, be totally dependent on what it receives from the national Transport budget, and we trust that the corporation’s service delivery and achievements will be watched closely.]

The portfolio committee yesterday paid visits to stations such as Langa, Khayelitsha, Philippi, Mitchells Plain, Ysterplaat and others, and I must say that I was very impressed by what I saw. To give one example: At Mitchells Plain station the whole station complex has been converted into a shopping mall, which really compares favourably to any other business complex in the city.

I think I have said enough. The IFP supports the Bill. Mr T ABRAHAMS: Chairperson …

Mr J H MOMBERG: Tommy, sê net hallo'' engoodbye’’! [Tommy, just say hello'' andgoodbye’’!]

An HON MEMBER: Tommy, sê net jy support'' en dis al! [Tommy, just say you support’’ and that is all!]

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Dis ‘n goeie plan, Jannie. [That is a good plan, Jannie.]

… I concur with the previous speaker that there should really not be a need for us to make heavy weather of this, and I agree with the Deputy Chief Whip, Mr Jannie Momberg, as well that I should just give our support. [Interjections.]

We, the UDM, fully support this Bill. We want to express the hope that the SA Rail Commuter Corporation will become as viable a business as possible. It has little chance, since its creation in 1990, to make a go of becoming financially viable. We hope that the removal of its debt - its takeover by the state - will put it in a position in which it can make progress in the future.

Like others, we also believe that we must be on our guard. Now that the budget of the Rail Commuter Corporation will fall under the auspices of the Minister of Transport, every effort must be made to avoid a recurrence of incurring such huge debts.

Having said that, I will follow the advice given to me by Mr Jannie Momberg and simply state that we support the Bill.

Mr S B FARROW: Chairperson, the Bill is designed to take over the loan debt of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation, withdrawing its borrowing powers except for bridging finance, and put its annual capital needs on the annual budget of the national Department of Transport.

In so doing, the national Department of Transport and the corporation will become involved in a number of initiatives to increase efficiency, rationalise the service and reduce any further dependency on outside funds. These include the concessioning of certain services and the rationalising of all public service within the framework of the National Lard Transport Transition Act, Act 22 of 2000.

The SARCC is the Government agency responsible for the provision of commuter rail services throughout South Africa. The corporation’s mandate is to ensure that all rail commuter services in the public interest are provided within the framework of the designated transport authorities. These services are currently provided under contract by Metro Rail Services, in terms of an operating agreement involving rail infrastructure, railway lines, signals, rolling stock, stations and surrounding land and property.

Having had the opportunity, only yesterday, to be part of a portfolio committee tour of some of the stations within the Cape Town metropole, I find it encouraging to note the effort that Metro Rail and Intersite have gone to in order to restructure the commuter rail business, through concessioning and improved efficiency, but they have a long way to go within the financial contraints and budget.

If this Bill can further improve this process by bringing in additional private-sector capital and expertise, then I am sure the problem faced by the SARCC, in terms of both meeting its socioeconomic services subsidies and closing the gap between fare revenue and operational and capital costs, will be markedly reduced.

The key to the success of this operation will be the making of rail transport, once again, attractive and user-friendly to the commuter by a more efficient service coupled with safety and security for its users. This will have a marked impact on fare revenue and usage whilst, at the same time, reducing the need for additional capital to be unnecessarily spent on parallel track roads and the ever-increasing backlog of road maintenance through excessive road use. The national Department of Transport will be best placed to ensure the co- ordination of these various activities within its budgetary framework and ensuring that rail gets its fair share of the cake in order for it to meet its level of service excellence. It is notable that Metro Rail is attempting to make its service and stations more acceptable to the populace

• that is, those not able to use services of taxis - but many lessons can be learned from the various models being used overseas.

I was fortunate to have recently visited Japan as part of a Parliamentary visit. One of its major assets is its rail transportation systems, which cover all possible destinations. Japan Railways is a group of six railway companies, operating throughout the country and in many of the larger cities. It is especially renowned for its extreme punctuality and user- friendly ticket vending systems. It carries just under 400 billion passengers per kilometre, which is the highest in the world.

Whilst we were in Japan, it was noted that an intergovernmental note of exchange exists, concerning a Japanese loan for an urban rail passenger transport modernisation project. This was signed in February 1998, and it would be interesting to know whether the Department of Transport has made use of this agreement, particularly in terms of finding solutions to our security problems, dwindling train usage and efficiency levels.

Finally, let me once again, reiterate the DP and the Democratic Alliance’s concern about what my colleague the hon Richard Pillay raised, namely the limits to the amounts of bridging finance which can be determined from time to time by the Minister of Finance. Such amounts should be strictly used for ensuring improved efficiency and the viability of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation and its agents, and, more importantly, on the insurances that they meet commitments to both the public and any future lenders.

We trust and hope that this Bill will meet those requirements, and we wish the SA Rail Commuter Corporation good luck in meeting the objectives of greater efficiency and more concessioning. The DP and the Democratic Alliance support this Bill.

Mr J P CRONIN: Chairperson, very briefly, because we are approaching the end of a difficult session, the SA Rail Commuter Corporation was formed in

1. It is a publicly owned entity, and the corporation basically owns commuter railway line signals, rolling stock, some buildings, stations and platforms, the land that adjoins the railway line and the land that surrounds stations. It has set up a wholly owned subsidiary called Intersite, which is a subsidiary of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation. That is a kind of property management corporation, also publicly owned, which looks after the management and development of railway stations and railway property.

Then, just to add to the institutional complexities, there is Metrorail, which does not fall under the Department of Transport budget, but under Public Enterprises, through the Transnet family, and it operates under a negotiated concession. It actually runs the commuter rail system in several cities.

So we have quite a complicated institutional arrangement, and I think in the coming years we need to look at that also, if we are to sort out and provide a better commuter rail experience and service to the totality of people in our country.

The SA Rail Commuter Corporation’s principal responsibility at the moment is to ensure the provision of this essential social and economic service, subsidised commuter rail services, to the poorest of the poor. Rail commuting is safer than road commuting, it is environmentally more friendly and it is generally more efficient. So we need to be able to sustain and greatly improve on that capacity.

In 1993, that is some three years after it was formed, on the advice of F W de Klerk’s cabinet, the SA Rail Commuter Corporation was advised - in fact, it was told - to take out a loan. It was told that there was no way that it could repair and maintain its rolling stock on the government budget, so it was told to go out and find a loan somewhere. A promise was made that in the coming year that loan would be repaid off the national budget. The promise was never kept, and that is what we are now dealing with in the year 2000.

It is an entity involved in an essential but unprofitable - I direct this to Mr Pillay - enterprise. One can try and privatise it, but it is not a profitable enterprise. It is a socially and economically necessary service. The economies of our major cities, the cities themselves, would grind to a halt if poor people could not get from Khayelitsha to Cape Town or from Khayelitsha to the Bellville South industrial area. We need to do this. They need that service and we as a country and an economy need the service, but it is not particularly profitable. That is the sad reality of it, and yet it has to happen.

So good luck to the hon member in his dreams of privatising it, or rendering it a viable business, as Mr Abrahams said. I am not sure what he means by a viable business''. If he meansviable’’ in the sense of providing the service that the people require and that our economy requires, then I am happy to accept that notion of viability. But if he means something else, I am not sure whether we are talking in the realm of possibilities.

Now, with this legislation in front of us, we have the agreement of the two Ministers concerned, the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Finance, critically. This legislation will now ensure that R2 281 000 000 debt - it has grown because it was interest-bearing - is consolidated into the national debt. There is a remaining R219 million, which is non-interest- bearing, as a loan, and that will now be appropriated through the Department of Transport budget.

The R355 million that the SA Rail Commuter Corporation had budgeted for this year to repay interest will now be able to be released into capital investment in commuter rail, in terms of maintaining, repairing and upgrading infrastructure and rolling stock.

The DP, particularly, and some of the other parties in the portfolio committee expressed the concern that in passing this legislation - and they have repeated this concern today - we will be sending a green light to every Government public agency, parastatal, local government entity and so forth, that they can borrow where they like, and they can spend as much as they like, and we will bail them out. If that is the message we are sending, we agree with them that we should be very cautious. But I do not think that that is the message we are sending at all.

The message we are sending is that an entity such as this, which has to operate as a subsidised service, should not really have got into the borrowing game. It cannot turn a big profit and, therefore, pay off its loan. Therefore, other means have to be found to fund this thing. I, therefore, agree with some of the speakers who said that the appropriate route is to use Government and the Department of Transport, so that we have a co-ordinated and a coherent approach to meeting the needs of the poorest of the poor in terms of transport.

Our concern is less about sending a green light message to Government agencies that they can spend and borrow and they will be bailed out. Our concern is that we must not send the message, in passing this legislation, that the problems of commuter rail systems are over, that the R355 million is sufficient to sustain, that they are now saving by not having to pay interest, and that that is sufficient to see them through.

In fact, there is a massive shortage of infrastructural spend on the maintenance of commuter rail carriages, the railway lines, and the general upgrade of the system.

On 18 September 2000, I asked the Minister of Transport here in the House if there was sufficient spending in our budget on economic and, specifically, transport infrastructure. His answer was ``No’’. He assured me in his answer that with the MTEF, the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, and the Minister’s 4x4, as they call them, they are looking at infrastructural spending, and that we will see a much greater emphasis, in coming years, on this essential thing, because the less we spend, the more we are going to pay in the end because as the road and rail infrastructure deteriorates, progressively so the cost of repairing them grows incrementally.

The Minister also assured us that they are looking at institutionalising the co-ordination of infrastructural investment. I am not quite sure what that means, but maybe it suggests that we will look to some kind of agency capable of accessing international loans and other loans so that we could, in a co-ordinated and strategic way, spend money on transport infrastructure and other critical infrastructure.

This legislation must be, as the Minister said - as read by the Minister of Health - just the first step in addressing the urgent capital needs of commuter transport in our country.

We thank the other parties for their support, the Department of Finance, Department of Transport, and the Minister of Health for reading on behalf of the Minister of Transport. The ANC supports the South African Rail Commuter Corporation Limited Financial Arrangements Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 16:28. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                       MONDAY, 9 OCTOBER 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Correctional Services:

 (1)    Proclamation No 819 published in the Government Gazette No 21482
     dated 25 August 2000, Establishment of the prison at Kokstad,
     KwaZulu-Natal Province, to be known as the Ebongweni Correctional
     Centre, made in terms of section 5(1) of the Correctional Services
     Act, 1998 (Act No 111 of 1998).

 (2)    Proclamation No 820 published in the Government Gazette No 21482
     dated 25 August 2000, Establishment of a new prison at Empangeni,
     KwaZulu-Natal Province, to be known as Empageni Qalakabusha
     Prison, made in terms of section 5(1) of the Correctional Services
     Act, 1998 (Act No 111 of 1998).

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Water Affairs and
 Forestry for 1999-2000 [RP 101-2000].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Bills of Exchange Amendment Bill [B 47 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 3 October 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Bills of Exchange Amendment Bill [B 47 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 47A - 2000].

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on the South African Rail Commuter Corporation Limited Financial Arrangements Bill [B 64 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 4 October 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Transport, having considered the subject of the South African Rail Commuter Corporation Limited Financial Arrangements Bill [B 64 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.

   The Committee further reports that it has rejected the following amendment:

       On page 2, after line 22, to insert:
   
   
       "(e)any such debt to be repaid by the Corporation  and not
           deferred for repayment by the State;"
   

   The Committee also wishes to point out that, in the objects memorandum attached to the Bill, the word “million”, wherever it appears, needs to be replaced by the word “billion”.

3. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Education on Visits to Northern Province schools, dated 3 October 2000:

 A.     Introduction


     The Portfolio Committee on Education, having sent two delegations
     to Northern Province schools from 2 to 5 May 2000, reports as
     follows:


     1. Objectives
          In a meeting which was held on 13 October 1999, the Committee
          decided that two delegations visit the Northern Province
          during a constituency week in March 2000. As the province is
          one of the largest provinces, the Committee agreed that the
          delegation of eight members would divide itself into two
          groups (four members each) to visit as many schools as
          possible in all areas, primarily the most disadvantaged rural
          communities, with a mandate to -
           
          (1) co-operatively examine, along with the provincial
              education standing committee, the capacity of the
              province to deal with the demands set by national Acts,
              regulations and policies, and other challenges spelled
              out in     the first priority of the Minister of
              Education's Tirisano ("Call for Action") document, which
              intends to make our provincial systems work by making co-
              operative government work;
          (2) examine conditions of physical degradation in schools in
              areas listed by, and according to, the objectives of the
              President's rural strategy programme;

          (3) investigate the implementation of funding norms and
              standards emanating from the South African Schools Act;

          (4) examine ways of effecting greater synergy between
              education at provincial and national levels;

          (5) construct a co-operative relationship between the
              Committee and the provincial committee to deal co-
              operatively with challenges constraining the effective
              development of our education system;

          (6) develop a rural development strategy in respect of the
              building and renovations of schools and the provision of
              resources like textbooks and teaching aids in rural
              schools; and
          (7) address the challenges of the allocation and management of
              provincial budgets in respect of education.


          In view of the fact that the Committee plays a vital role in
          promoting co-operative governance between the provinces and
          the government and in improving the quality of life of every
          citizen on the ground, the delegations focused on all
          educational infrastructure affected, damaged and destroyed,
          also assessing the need for repairs and renovations and for
          the building of new schools in areas visited.


     2. Tirisano


          The delegations based their visits on Tirisano. A document
          outlining the objectives thereof was distributed by the
          Department of Education (the Department) to MPLs, education
          directors, school principals and the media.

          The delegations emphasised that since Tirisano was based on
          extensive consultation by the Minister with a large variety of
          stakeholders, there was no need to reinvent the wheel by
          searching for other criteria on which to base their visits.

          In particular, the first priority identified in Tirisano - "to
          make our provincial system work by making co-operative
          government work" - was clearly in line with the purpose of the
          visits. The Minister pointed out in Tirisano that three of the
          largest provinces, KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape and the
          Northern Province, were also the poorest, with the largest
          backlogs in respect of school buildings, infrastructure and
          services. For this reason those three provinces were
          identified for visits. Similar visits have been already
          undertaken to schools in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape,
          from 2 to 4 November 1999, and that report was published in
          the ATCs on 9 March 2000.

          Other issues identified by Tirisano were -


          (1) the inability of many provincial education departments to
              manage education efficiently;

          (2) the empowerment of provincial departments to fulfil their
              statutory responsibility; and

          (3) dealing effectively with challenges in respect of the
              allocation and management of provincial budgets.


     3. Rural development strategy - culture of learning and teaching
          (COLT)


          The delegations emphasised the importance of establishing a
          rural development strategy for a vast province such as the
          Northern Province. The resourcing of proper schools in rural
          areas with regard to establishing classrooms and proper school
          infrastructure conducive to learning and teaching, adequate
          textbooks, teaching aids and other learning materials must
          become a priority.

          During the visits to rural schools, the delegations saw
          vandalised school buildings, no proper infrastructure (in some
          schools no infrastructure at all), destruction of school
          property, overcrowded classrooms, no textbooks, a lack of
          water and sanitation and a lack of libraries and laboratories
          as main problems of rural education.

          In many schools ineffective management by principals has a
          major impact on the success, or lack thereof, in cultivating
          an atmosphere conducive for learning and teaching. Some
          schools are without principals, due to problems and conflict
          among teachers and principals. Numerous principals have left
          their schools, fearing for their lives.

          The COLT is the centre of life of the department. It is
          committed to discipline in schools, to make everyone
          understand the hard work needed. Parents, teachers and
          learners are also motivated to work hard. On numerous
          occasions departmental officials pay surprise visits to check
          whether the standard and discipline are maintained in schools.

          There is infighting between teachers, principals and learners.
          The department intervenes to try and resolve such problems.

          In certain rural schools, teachers have many complaints about
          principals, whilst doing very little themselves to improve the
          situation. Traditional leaders, councillors, parents and
          political party leaders were seen as interfering in the
          management of rural schools. Such schools were generally
          vandalised, most windows were broken and there were poor
          attendance of teachers and learners.

          The management capacity of principals has to be urgently
          investigated at rural schools.


     4. Delegations


          As the group was divided into two delegations, Group A was
          under the leadership of Prof S M Mayatula, while Group B was
          led by Ms P K Mothoagae. Both groups were accompanied by
          members of the provincial education standing committee and
          departmental officials. The groups were constituted as
          follows:

          Group A:

          Prof S M Mayatula (leader of the delegation); Ms I Mutsila; Mr
          S B Ntuli; Mr S J de Beer; Ms N C Manjezi (Committee
          Secretary); Mr A Nevhutanda; Mrs S Mangena; Mr R Mashaba; and
          Ms I X Chauke (Provincial Committee Secretary).

          Mr M M Motshekga left the delegation at an early stage due to
          prior commitments and engagements.

          Group B:

          Ms P K Mothoagae (leader of the delegation); Mr B G Molewa; Mr
          M A Mangena; Rev M S Mogoba; Ms A T Tatana (Committee
          Secretary); Ms T J Ndimande (Chairperson: Provincial education
          committee); Mr M S Burgers; and Mrs Matlala (Provincial
          Committee Secretary).

          An attempt was made to obtain a balanced view, with input from
          departmental sources, principals, teachers and school-
          governing bodies (SGBs).


 B.     Start of visit


     On arrival in the province on 2 May, the delegation was warmly
     welcomed by the provincial education committee, led by the
     chairperson. Constructive and open discussions were held at the
     Pietersburg Holiday Inn. Prof S M Mayatula gave a brief overview
     and objectives of the visit.


     1. Department of Education - Pietersburg


          The Northern Province is one of the three provinces identified
          by Pres Mbeki as the poorest, in need of extra financial
          assistance. On 3 May, the delegation was welcomed by the MEC
          for Education, Mr E Mushwana, and discussions with top
          management were held. The following were some of the areas
          covered:

          There are 2 250 000 pupils and 66 000 civil servants in the
          province. The department serves 5 000 schools, of which almost
          65% are rural and farm schools.


          (1) Grade 1 admission


              In terms of the new age requirement admission was done in
              accordance with the new admission policy for 2000. The
              process started in September 1999 and was finalised in
              the first week of January 2000.

              The general trend was that there were fewer learners in
              Grade 1 this year because of the age requirement of
              seven. District managers control this process and the
              department is satisfied that Grade 1 learners meet the
              requirements of the admission policy.


          (2) Delivery of textbooks and stationery


              Orders for textbooks were issued from October to mid-
              November 1999. Delivery started in mid-November, and is
              still continuing. There are two categories of textbooks
              to be supplied - those already printed and those to be
              printed.

              Stationery orders were issued in November 1999. Delivery
              started in the last week of November. By 30 January 2000,
              90% of the suppliers had completed delivery.
              Supplementary orders were issued and delivery was
              completed on 15 January.


          (3) Attendance by learners and educators


              This exercise was conducted on the first day of school by
              the whole range of officials, from the Premier and MEC to
              first education specialist. Most secondary schools
              registering learners, with no plans of working that day.
              Few secondary schools had an attendance rate above 70%,
              with even fewer schools engaged in actual teaching.

              Educators' attendance was not good, with most schools not
              adhering to the directives of maintaining time books.
              There was literally no sense of business in respect of
              most educators. Primary schools were disciplined and the
              majority of them were running well.

              Monitoring teams in the districts were immediately
              constituted to conduct operations on a daily basis. The
              situation gradually improved from day two, and it is
              pleasing to report that most secondary schools are
              running well. Principals are beginning to be firm.


          (4) Implementation of outcomes-based education (OBE)


              There is an indication that facilitators do not have the
              necessary skills to effectively transfer knowledge to the
              consumer. The cascade model also has limitations,
              particularly when the department is dealing with a
              sophisticated model like the current one.

              Workshops will not be effective if they are conducted a
              few months before implementation or when implementation
              is in progress. A review is thus necessary to look at the
              best strategies to convey curriculum changes to
              consumers.


          (5) Success schools and success factors


              Most successful schools were those located in urban or
              semi-urban areas. They had a planning meeting and enjoyed
              support of trainer facilitators. Success factors included
              the following:


              (a)  Good management of schools - positive behavior by
                   both educators and learners.
              (b)  Commitment on the part of the educator.


              (c)  Regular cluster meetings after school.


              (d)  Regular support by facilitators from districts and
                   regions.


              (e)  Quality training.


              (f)  Availability of transport for facilitators to visit
                   schools.


          (6) Struggling schools and inhibiting factors


              Struggling schools are mostly those in the rural areas.
              Educators share common transport from home to schools,
              which makes it difficult for them to meet regularly in
              the afternoon. The inhibiting factors are:


              (a)  Poor school management.


              (b)  Inadequate training of managers and educators in
                   OBE.
              (c)  A lack of success in respect of supporting
                   materials.


              (d)  A lack of planning in school clusters.


              (e)  Resistance to change.


              (f)  The cascade model as mode of delivery.


              The department has some improvement plans for struggling
              schools:


              (i)  Retrain principals, SGBs, district managers and
                     circuit managers.


              (ii) Encourage clusters to work together on OBE.


              (iii)      Recommend school-based inputs on approaches.


              (iv) Demonstrate facilitation and other skills.


              (v)  Provide teaching and learning materials.


              (vi) Develop a practical guide for educators.


              (vii)      Develop districts monitoring plans.


          (7) State of preparedness for administration of Grade 12 exams
              in 2000


              The departmental management plan has been developed and
              entries have been received on 17 March 2000. Capturing
              commenced on 21 May 2000 via a private agency. The
              October/November timetable will be available by August
              2000.


          (8) Analysis of successful schools in 1999 and success factors


              The majority of schools with a pass percentage of between
              95% to 100% were found to be historically advantaged.
              This was an indication of the commitment and dedication
              of those involved in educational change. Although the
              former model C schools still reflected the largest number
              of distinctions, they reflected a decline in terms of
              quality of results. The success factors included:


              (a)  Availability of action plans geared to the
                   attainment of set targets.


              (b)  Availability of work programmes which interpret the
                   syllabi.


              (c)  Guidance and counselling support for learners.


              (d)  Evaluation reports for learners and educators.


              (e)  Strong management teams.


              (f)  Quality and quantity of written work.


              (g)  Control systems for administrative and professional
                   matters.


              (h)  Commitment of educators, learners and parent bodies
                   to achieve excellence.


              (i)  Good discipline at all top schools.


              (j)  Extra classes offered for enrichment.


          (9) Analysis of struggling schools in 1999, and inhibiting
              factors


              Struggling schools are found all over and are not
              restricted to a particular geographical area. They
              operate without plans, and communities do not take
              ownership of them. Work ethic is very low, and there is
              no sense of responsibility and accountability. The
              inhibiting factors are:


              (a)  The principal and some educators are not at school
                   most of the time.


              (b)  Principals do not carry out their responsibilities,
                   as agreed in the Education Labour Relations Council
                   (ELRC).


              (c)  SGBs do not contribute towards management.


              (d)  Lack of discipline.


              (e)  Educators do not finish the syllabi, and go to class
                   unprepared, reading lessons from a textbook.


              (f)  The quality and quantity of written work is very
                   poor.


              (g)  Absence of control systems and action plans.


              (h)  The seven-hour school day is not fully utilised.


              (i)  There is no management at all and no bench-marks are
                   set to realise targets.


          (10)Improvement plans for senior certificate examination in
              2000


              Improvement plans should address all aspects of school
              development, rather than be confined to a particular
              grade. Grade 12 is seen as an exit point, where efforts
              accumulated through the system can be objectively
              assessed. A plan and strategies have been developed to
              improve on the 1999 performance:


              (a)  Analysis of school performance


                   Schools have been categorised according to
                   performances, so as to systematise the support
                   relevant to the critical areas. The categories range
                   from between 0% and 20%, which the department views
                   as critical, to 21% to 30% and finally to 31% to 39%.
                   An analysis was done on the weakness of these school
                   categories.

                   Regional and district offices have developed
                   intervention strategies, ranging from management
                   support to general planning of schools affected.
                   Clustering, or twinning, of weaker schools with
                   schools performing well in each circuit has been
                   done, so planning of tests and other curricular
                   issues are done jointly.


              (b)  Support to teachers


                   Special funds were made available for school support
                   programmes. The following activities took place:


                   (i)   Subject committees were resuscitated to provide
                         the necessary support.


                   (ii)  School visits, focusing on developed
                         checklists, must be conducted as a supporting
                         strategy rather than as routine work.


                   (iii) Each region has a continuous professional
                         development centre (rationalised college of
                         education) to primarily target the improvement
                         of Grade 12 results. Curriculum support
                         services (subject advisers) are located there
                         to run courses at the centres and provide
                         classroom support to educators.


                   (iv)  Class visits by principals are restored to the
                         system, and preparation is a prerequisite to
                         effective lesson delivery.


                   (v)   Deployment of head office officials to support
                         poorly managed schools on administrative and
                         professional matters.
              (c)  Textbooks


                   Textbooks, except commercial stationery, were
                   delivered in almost all schools. Some areas were
                   inaccessible due to recent rains and bad roads.

                   Approximately 98% of textbooks were delivered to
                   schools by the end of the first quarter. Fraud also
                   occurred with delivery of books, which caused delays
                   in some areas.


              (d)  Farm schools


                   There are challenges facing them, like status and
                   ownership, rental and their existence on certain
                   farms.

                   The department still has difficulty in staffing them.
                   They are seen to be equal to black schools, not meant
                   to admit the farmer's children, but black children.


              (e)  Rationalisation and transformation


                   Racism still exists in schools, primarily with
                   parents. Some schools still experience racial
                   grouping - one section for blacks and another for
                   whites. Although racism exists in some of the
                   schools, learners are motivated to learn, share and
                   live together, and as a result in some schools black
                   pupils share dormitories with white pupils.


              (f)  Poverty alleviation


                   The Department of Social Welfare is providing a
                   feeding scheme in numerous schools, and it is
                   progressing well in most.


              (g)  Pre-schools


                   There are 3 400 primary schools and 690 pre-schools.
                   Looking at the statistics, not all children will
                   start in Grade 1, hence Grade R was introduced. It is
                   envisaged that all primary schools should have Grade
                   R to accommodate children from pre-schools.

                   Pre-schools are perceived as a luxury for the rich,
                   and are most organised in the urban areas and
                   townships, not in rural communities. The government
                   does not subsidise the building of pre-schools.


              (h)  State of tertiary institutions


                   Big problems are still experienced, as tertiary
                   institutions are the competency of the national
                   Department - the provincial department spends more
                   time on schools. Even though there have been
                   constructive and open discussions with the management
                   of tertiary institutions in solving problems, there
                   is still need for a debate on this.

                   A perception exists that students who attend black
                   tertiary institutions are those who cannot afford.
                   The University of Venda has undergone transformation
                   and the University of the North is following suit.


              (i)  Staff provisioning and staffing


                   There are enough good teachers and they produce good
                   quality teaching in many schools.


 C.     Group A visits


     1. Haneartsburg Combined School


          The school is a former model C school and has an enrolment
          figure of 181 learners (Grade R to Grade 9) and 11 educators.
          About 120 learners stay in the hostel, and most of them are
          black. English and Afrikaans are the main mediums of
          instruction. It is a multilingual school, and they intend to
          bring African languages into the system. The history of the
          school started as early as 1887.

          The school is a brick structure, partly prefabricated. The
          school is well-managed, controlled and disciplined, with good
          grounds which are well-kept.

          They have already adopted OBE, and are operating very well.
          They also have programmes with other schools in the region,
          and working relationships seem very good. The SGBs are always
          represented in these programmes.

          As this is a government school, any child can be enrolled, but
          learners are selected according to language, as English is the
          main medium of instruction. The hostel determines and limits
          the number of pupils to be admitted to the school.

          At present there are 40 white learners; many were removed by
          their parents and admitted to other schools in Tzaneen.

          There is one black teacher, 10 white teachers and 12 general
          assistants, including the gardener. The government subsidies
          five educators, while the SGB contributes to the salaries of
          six other educators. Every pupil has to pay a school fee of
          R300 per month.

          There is good co-operation between and participation of the
          SGB and parents; they are happy about the quality of
          education. They do a lot of fundraising to keep the school's
          standard high. Three parent meetings are held per year to
          constructively discuss school matters.

          Even though there are five farm schools in the district, they
          have many pupils, in relation to the population in the area,
          and thus there is a need to incorporate these farm schools
          into other schools.

          Mr Smith has been acting principal since 1 March 2000. The
          post has been advertised, and 47 applications were received.
          The shortlisting process were to have commenced by not later
          than June 2000. No redeployment of teachers has been
          considered by the department.

          There are still finance and staffing problems. A submission
          has been made to the department for more teachers. Urgent
          assistance and additional teachers are needed to overcome
          problems.


     2. Seboni Primary School, Ga-Mokgoloboto


          The school has an enrolment figure of 813 learners (Grades R
          to 7) and 10 educators (81:1). There is no proper building or
          infrastructure; schooling takes place under the trees. Part of
          the structure is made of wood and is badly damaged,
          delapidated, in a state of collapse, and may cause injury to
          learners and educators. Nevertheless, it is still in use.

          There are three classrooms, five classes being held under a
          tree. On rainy days there is no formal schooling. The weather
          controls the school, not the principal.

          The informal settlement in the area gave birth to the school
          on 15 January 1996. It started in 1997 with six teachers
          voluntarily giving service, with no salary and no assistance
          from the government.

          At present there is one permanent teacher and nine temporary
          teachers. The nine temporary teachers are paid by the
          department and will soon be replaced as a result of
          redeployment. The department has utilised the temporary
          teachers to fill vacancies.

          There is no electricity, no sanitation, no fencing, no
          furniture and no learning materials (like writing boards).
          Funds are urgently needed to improve the quality of the
          damaged infrastructure and to build a new, decent school.

          Although the school is on the priority list of the department,
          one cannot predict when the new school will be built. A new
          school has been budgeted for by the provincial department. The
          government needs to intervene to alleviate the problems and
          build a new, decent school.


     3. Zivuko Senior Secondary School, Nkowankowane


          The school has an enrolment figure of 680 learners (Grades 8
          to 12) and 21 educators (32:1). The school building is a brick
          structure, with no broken windows.

          The school was started in 1993, and between then and 2000 it
          managed to change the mindset of teachers, realising the need
          for maximum effort, winning the support of teachers when it
          comes to the good of learners.

          Learners at this school are relatively orderly and
          disciplined, and most of them come from the township and
          commute to school on a daily basis. The school management has
          made great strides in getting the community to own the school
          and to change attitudes. Parents, teachers, learners and SGBs
          are striving for excellence. As a result, there is team work.
          The school is well managed and well controlled.

          There is a shortage of classrooms. Three classes (Geography,
          Agriculture and Physical Science) are held under a tree, and
          this creates difficulty on rainy days and during cold weather.
          This shortage has had a disastrous effect, causing a low
          understanding of learners. This could cause problems - a lack
          of individual attention from teacher to learner.

          Due to the classroom shortage, 90 learners in certain grades
          are cramped in one classroom, which results in difficulty for
          the educator when endeavouring to attend to each individual
          learner. Some learners are accommodated in the nearby church
          hall, one km away from the school.

          Several letters have been forwarded to the department to
          request additional classrooms, but until now no response has
          been received. The school has no desks and chairs. Learners
          are taught while they are standing on their feet, because of
          the absence of furniture. Textbooks were received, but
          delivery was very late.

          There is a great need for science laboratories and an
          administration block. A request was put to the department, but
          was "withdrawn", and they were told that the focus was on
          primary schools.

          The school needs teaching aids such as videos and computers,
          which will store and keep school management information and
          serve other purposes. There is no proper sanitation, toilets,
          electricity and fencing.

          Grade 12 results are: 1997 - 27%; 1998 - 39%; 1999 - 56%. This
          improvement clearly shows dedication and commitment from
          educators, learners and parents.


     4. Matimu High School, Tabina district


          The school has an enrolment figure of 800 learners (Grades 8
          to 12) and 24 educators (33:1). The school is a brick
          structure with louvre windows. Approximately 90% of the
          windows are broken. There are 13 classrooms, of which one has
          been converted into a store room. Roofs and ceilings of two
          classrooms are extensively damaged and need urgent repairs and
          maintainance.

          There is no fence. Funding for building proper clean and
          working toilets was donated by the European Union. Many
          successes could be focused:


          (1) Professional area


              Professionalism has turned the corner, towards a better
              deal for all, like the fully-fledged plan, and clear and
              directive policy on professional procedure - an
              instrument that imbues management and the general staff
              with what is expected in terms of performance measuring.
              This therefore makes it easy to evaluate the work of an
              individual input.


          (2) Professional administrative jurisdiction


              There is demarcation of the school curriculum into
              streams: Languages, social science and natural sciences,
              with a departmental head in each case co-ordinating the
              activities of all educators. This approach provides an
              individual head with autonomy, development, expansion,
              and dynamism. Ultimately, the work of these various
              streams are synchronised and approved by the principal.


          (3) Professional discipline
              This has been introduced and entrenched into school
              policy, and finds expression through the establishment of
              sectional heads of grades levels (i.e. Grades 8 to 12).
              Their duties will include controlling grades on
              discipline, for both educators and learners of that
              grade; collecting mark sheets from educators; controlling
              score records by educators in respect of learners; and
              compiling a monthly report of the grade, to be tabled for
              consumption by management council in its monthly
              meetings. A unit whose duties will include assessment,
              teaching strategies, approaches on preparations and
              quality and standard of tests and compiling reports on
              the above, for presentation to management council on its
              monthly meetings.


          (4) Discipline in general


              There is a delegate from the chief of discipline of the
              school in general, whose duties include punctuality. This
              person is an educator that facilitates decisions in the
              absence of the principal in conjunction with the
              professional head, and who co-ordinates all professional
              matters, from subject allocation to practical teaching.
              This educator has the same status as the chief of
              discipline.


          (5) Staff development


              There is unity regarding staff development in respect of
              education and training.


          (6) School buildings


              The structure on site comes from a donor, who has already
              spent R16 000 for materials and R5 000 for labour. The
              donor could not continue due to a lack of cash-flow. The
              assessment of a layperson estimated an amount of R100 000
              to complete the unfinished job. The administration block
              has been renovated.


          (7) Parental support


              Parents have begun to assume responsibility and ownership
              of the school. Meetings held with them, as well as their
              parental support, are encouraging.

              There is no proper office for the principal and a staff
              room. Important documentation are taken home by
              management members due to inadequate storage facilities
              at the school. The need exists to build an administration
              block.

              The school was established in 1982, and since then it has
              been exposed to vandalism and theft on a daily basis. The
              entire premises is extensively damaged and needs urgent
              repairs. Nevertheless, teaching is continuing.

              The provision of well-trained and professional securities
              are required to reduce vandalism and safeguard the
              building and its property, as most classrooms have broken
              windows and no doors. The department promised to renovate
              the school, but up to now it has not been fulfilled; the
              process is still in the pipeline.

              As this school is on the priority list of the department,
              three classrooms have been built and six additional
              classrooms will be erected to overcome the problems of
              shortage and overcrowding. Textbooks were never
              delivered; they only received stationery.

              Political conflicts within the community affected the
              schooling process. There were a number of strikes, the
              sources coming from the community, as learners and
              community members are influenced by teachers to
              contribute to conflict. These conflicts have affected the
              Grade 12 pass rate, which dropped drastically, due to
              absence of learners during normal school hours.
              Reports were sent to the Director, explaining the
              problems and nature of conflict. The delegation was
              informed that the MEC for Education, Mr E Mushwana, was
              aware of the conflict in these communities and that he
              was still arranging a meeting to try and solve the
              conflict problems.

              Since the establishment of SGBs in 1998, there has been a
              great change in attitude; the parents are involving
              themselves in all school affairs.


     5. Thubisang Primary School, Sekororo


          The school has an enrolment figure of 285 learners (Grades R
          to 7) and eight educators (36:1). It is a brick structure with
          six classrooms, including a shack built to overcome
          overcrowding due to the shortage of classrooms. One classroom
          is held under a tree. The school is well-managed, well-
          controlled and well-maintained.

          There is proper fencing and toilets. There is no water and
          electricity in the village - water is pumped from the mountain
          and is not hygienically clean.

          The shortage of classrooms remains. Three more classrooms and
          a staff room need to be built. The school has received a
          donation of R14 000 from the King, which were used to repair
          leaking roofs.

          Due to bad roads and time constraints, the delegation could
          not visit Tjaltjala Primary School, Timamogolo Primary School,
          Lepono Secondary School, Malebolong Primary School and Diputi
          Secondary School. The Committee wishes to apologise to these
          schools and their communities.


     6. Seagutla Secondary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 550 learners (Grades 8
          to 12) and 27 educators (20:1). It is a brick structure of
          good quality.

          In previous years, the school was a finishing school, but in
          the past three years it was changed to a normal school. There
          are 16 classrooms, including damaged classrooms hit by a storm
          in 1999. Most of the damaged classrooms' roofs are leaking.
          The Department of Public Works has already started repairing
          the damaged classrooms.

          The school has proper fencing and electricity, and pit
          toilets, which are a health hazard. Although the school is
          situated away from the village, vandalism and theft is not
          common, as there is full-time security on the premises.

          Grade 12 started in 1998, and the pass rate in 1999 was 28%.


     7. Madondo Secondary School, Belfast


          The school has an enrolment figure of 561 learners and 14
          educators (40:1). It is a brick structure with no broken
          windows. This community-driven school started in 1989. There
          are nine classrooms, of which one is a staff room and another
          one has been converted into a storeroom.

          As this is a well managed and controlled school, funding is
          needed to effect some community-driven initiatives aimed at
          maintaining it in a proper environment conducive to learning
          and teaching.

          There is a serious shortage of classrooms. Due to this
          shortage, a tuck shop has been converted into a science class.
          There is no privacy between teachers and the principal, due to
          the unavailability of offices and an administration block.
          There is not enough furniture - beer boxes are used as chairs.

          In 2000, through its efforts, the school received a donation
          of R36 000 from the RDP committee, which was utilised to erect
          a fence around the building in order to safeguard the school
          and its property. The damaged roofs have been repaired by
          Public Works.

          Previously, the school experienced problems with delivery of
          textbooks. They had to borrow textbooks from neighbouring
          schools. Some learners had to continue with the learning
          process without any textbooks. However, in 2000, textbooks
          were received on time.

          Learners at this school are well-disciplined and well-
          mannered. There is good working relationship between teachers,
          learners and SGBs. Parents still maintain that learners should
          be punished, even though corporal punishment has been outlawed
          by the government.

          School fees amount to R50,00 per child per annum, and parents
          are co-operating by paying these fees. The Grade 12 pass rate
          in 1998 was 37%, while in 1999 it was 48%, with eight
          exemptions. The school is committed to work hard in trying to
          improve its standard. There is no proper sanitation and
          toilets.
     8. Malavutela Secondary School, Marite


          The school has an enrolment figure of 413 learners (Grades 8
          to 12) and 10 educators, including the principal (41:1). It is
          a brick structure, and almost all the windows are broken.

          There is no fencing around the school premises to safeguard
          school property. There is a serious shortage of classrooms -
          at present there are only three classrooms, with two offices
          which serve as staff room and principal's office,
          respectively.

          The school officially started in 1991 (in the neighbouring
          school) with one classroom. Firstly, the Grade 10 class was
          established in one classroom, but in 1994 the classroom was
          burnt down. Due to a shortage of classrooms, there was no
          initiative to start Grades 11 and 12.

          No problems have been experienced in terms of delivery of
          textbooks and stationery. Pupils are well-controlled and well-
          disciplined. The school has a history of being incorporated
          from the Lebowa government. An automatic promotion was not
          good for the pupils because it did not test their abilities.

          The school also managed to obtain third position in Grade 12
          pass rates in the region, which was as follows: 1996 - 38%;
          1997 - 8%; 1998 - 4%; 1999 - 21% (improvement of 16,7% over
          1998).

          The principal emphasised that accommodation and overcrowding
          may be the cause of poor results. This was evident during our
          visit there: The Grades 8 and 9 classes were held under trees,
          due to the shortage of classrooms.

          Schools with the lowest pass rates are timeously visited by
          district managers, regional managers and circuit managers, to
          monitor progress and to ascertain problem areas. There is
          great co-operation of staff to improve pass rates and academic
          records by upgrading standards. Teachers and learners are co-
          operatively committed to improve standards by doing the
          following:


          (1) Conducting after-school studies until 16:00.


          (2) Grade 12s will have morning classes every weekday.


          (3) Monthly tests, where the best students will be rewarded
              with gifts like pens and stationery. This is seen by the
              school management as a form of motivation for learners.


          (4) During June holidays, winter classes are held.


          Parents are timeously informed about learners' performances.
          Teachers are committed and dedicated to achieve a 100% pass
          rate in 2000.

          There are five toilets with no roofs. The school urgently
          needs two additional staff members (one HOD and one educator).
          The request was forwarded to the department, and one educator
          was promised.

          There is a serious shortage of English, Zulu and Mathematics
          educators.

          Regular meetings are held on a monthly basis with community
          structures to give feedback on all school developments. The
          community does not want to take ownership of the school, and
          the high rate of vandalism undelines this, which is committed
          by people from the community.


     9. L L M Mokwena Secondary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 89 learners (Grades 8 to
          12) and 24 educators (29:1), two of whom are awaiting
          redeployment. Another two are temporary.

          The building is a brick structure, with almost 90% of windows
          broken. The other part of the brick structure, which has been
          extensively damaged by fire and with rusted window panes with
          no roofs, needs urgent repairs and renovations.

          The school was initiated as the result of the need of the two
          communities (Tsakane and Jim Brown), it is situated at the
          Marite settlement and has proper fencing. The poor pit toilets
          are a health harzard, but are still in use by both teachers
          and learners.

          The school started in 1985 with two educators and very few
          learners. Enrolment and staff complement increases yearly.

          There are 12 classrooms, nine of which are standard, and three
          which were meant to be laboratory and home economics centres,
          but with no equipment they ended up being converted into
          regular classrooms.

          Vandalism, burglary and theft are rife, and it is believed
          that it is committed by learners and by the local community,
          as this school is situated at the lower end of the two
          villages. The community does not want to take ownership of the
          school. The delegation was informed that the crimes are
          reported to the police, but that nothing is being done to
          prevent vandals from entering the school premises.

          The relationship between teacher and learner is good. The
          learners wear their school uniform at all times and are well-
          disciplined. Corporal punishment, according to the acting
          principal, is still regarded a good corrective measure to
          discipline and punish learners.


          (1) Poor pass rate and Grade 12 results


              The reasons for poor and low pass rate were presented as
              follows:


              (a)  The shifting of good and excellent educators to
                   other schools is seen to be the cause of the low pass
                   rate. This is also evident by a decline in the Grade
                   12 results: 1997 - 34,7%; 1998 - 26,2% 1999 - 16,9%.


              (b)  The school does not receive good pupil material from
                   primary schools, worthy of being in Grade 8. They are
                   promoted to secondary school without good
                   performance.


              The school has been run without a principal since July
              1999. According to the circuit manager, the previous
              principal alleged that he had received death threats,
              mainly from educators, learners and the community. The
              principal on one instance was nearly killed by learners
              on his way to school. The matter was referred to the
              region, in fear of his life.

              He was refused a VSP (Voluntary Severance Package), as
              principals do not qualify for VSPs.


     10. Bushbuckridge Secondary School


          The enrolment figure is 247 learners and seven educators
          (35:1). At present Grade 11 is the highest Grade; they hope to
          present their first Grade 12 batch in 2001. The school
          building is a brick structure, which is well-maintained and
          has a fence around the school premises. None of the windows
          are broken. Almost all classroom doors and windows are burglar-
          barred. The school is well-managed and well-controlled.


          The school was established in January 1996, through the
          concerted efforts of the great sons and daughters of Maviljan
          Township, College View in Bushbuckridge Midland. It was
          started with the special purpose of providing quality
          education in science and commercial subjects, with only 42
          learners; now it has 247 learners.

          A four-classroom block was built by the provincial education
          department, and in January 1997 they moved to the permanent
          site. One of the classrooms is still being used as the office
          and the staff room.

          In 1998 the parents supported the school to erect one
          additional classroom. The school has two Grade 8 streams,
          while other grades have one stream each.

          In 1999 a fence was erected around the school with the help
          and support of parents. The school also has electric
          connections, tap water, telephones and toilets facilities. It
          is about to finish a hall, to be used as a classroom.

          School starts at 07:50, with morning devotion for 10 minutes,
          and ends at 14:50, with a short break and a long break in
          between. Apart from languages, only science and commercial
          subjects are offered. Mathematics is a compulsory subject for
          all grades. Guidance is taught as a non-examination subject in
          all grades.

          Extra-curricular activities are equally important. They have
          training in and/or facilities in respect of sports, the School
          Christian Movement (SCM), interclass debates, quiz shows,
          music and symposiums. Learners have won several prizes in
          interschool competitions. In 1999, three learners participated
          in the provincial mathematics olympiad competitions. They also
          received an area trophy for cultural activities. Educational
          tours are conducted every year. In 1997, learners participated
          in the provincial science expo, and also won two trophies in
          the circuit for COLTS and Masakhane.

          There is high level of co-operation between educators and
          learners. The learners are well-disciplined and well-mannered,
          and are participating in all activities. There is no
          vandalism. Parents as well as learners are engaged to take
          ownership of the school.

          As a growing school, they are also faced with lot of
          constraints:


          (1) Textbooks and prescribed books were never received, except
              for a few prescribed books for Grades 8 and 9 in 1997.
              Not every learner can afford to buy textbooks. The books
              were never delivered due to departmental financial
              constraints, as the focus was on Grades 1, 2, 7 and 12.


          (2) There is great shortage of furniture in the school. The
              Grade 8 learners are sharing seats in classrooms. The
              Rector of Mapulaneng College of Education has lent the
              school 40 chairs and 40 tables to alleviate the furniture
              problem.


          (3) To be a fully-fledged science and commerce school, there
              is need for a laboratory, a computer laboratorium, an
              administration block, a library, a decent sports field,
              and electronic equipment like a television, a video, a
              fax machine, an overhead projector and screen,
              typewriters and a photocopier to boost teaching and
              learning. The mission of the school is also to get
              learners acquainted with all modern equipment so that
              they do not feel inferior or disadvantaged when they
              encounter advanced job requirements anywhere in the
              country.


          (4) At the end of 1998 it was regretfully decided that
              learners passing Grade 10 had to look for admission in
              Grade 11 in other schools, due to a lack of
              accommodation.


          The school started with a difference - "Just another mushroom
          school". It was not what the initiators had in mind. Rapid
          advancement of qualitative education in the right direction
          was the motto when the elite of the place embarked on an
          effort to establish this school. The school needs firm
          commitment and funds to assist it to attain its goals.


     11.     Nkothasi Primary School, Bushbuckridge


          The school has an enrolment figure of 570 learners (Grades 1
          to 7) and 21 educators (27:1). The school building consist of
          10 classrooms, which are of a brick structure, with no broken
          windows. All doors and windows are burglar-barred. Part of the
          building has many cracks, which have been aggravated by recent
          storms.

          The site where the school building was erected, is very swampy
          and marshy. Some floors are breaking down horribly because the
          soil underneath is saturated. Parents were summoned to come to
          observe, and they recommended that -


          (1) a new structure be erected;


          (2) a different site for construction be used; and


          (3) the existing structure be used for other developments.


          The department was therefore requested to act promptly to
          respond to the recommendation agreed to by the parents and the
          school management. In 1997, assessors were assigned by the
          department, and they also recommended that the site be
          changed. The continued use of some classrooms is extremely
          unsafe and dangerous and will be detrimental to both educators
          and learners.

          Learners are still greatly deprived in respect of extra-
          curriculum activities due to the state of the grounds, which
          are always swampy. The educators and learners find it
          difficult to reach the school during rainy days. Since 1996,
          and until today, the roads have been in a bad state. The
          rivulets around the school regularly overflow during summer,
          resulting in late-coming and absenteeism, which greatly
          hampers discipline.

          In view of the above, continued repairs to the school building
          is seen as a waste of parents' money, which can be fruitfully
          utilised to resource the school in other urgent and
          educational needs. The community needs and deserves a decent
          school.


     12.     Nghunghunyana High School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 330 learners (Grade 8 -
          12) and 13 educators (25:1), including the principal. It is a
          brick structure. All the doors and windows are burglar barred
          and none of the windows are broken.

          There are a number of constraints which make it difficult to
          produce better and quality results:


          (1) Classrooms are on the verge of collapsing, and are not
              enough to cater for the needs of learners, especially
              Grades 10, 11 and 12, where there are optional subjects
              such as History, Geography, Physical Science and Business
              Economics. This is seen as a very big constraint, in that
              one or two groups receive lessons under the Moroela and
              Fig trees. The situation is worse in the rain season and
              on windy days. Additional classrooms are needed.
          (2) There is no laboratory, which makes it difficult, if not
              impossible, to do experiments.


          (3) There is no library where learners can develop study
              skills and do independent research.


          (4) There is no staff room and office to accommodate staff,
              making it difficult to discuss important issues, and even
              to reprimand delinquents or counsel learners with
              learning problems. As a result, one classroom has been
              converted into a staffroom.


          (5) There are no sanitation facilities. The traditional pit
              toilets have collapsed as a result of the heavy rains in
              February this year. The one still in existence is
              extremely delapitated and can collapse any moment,
              causing injury to learners and educators.


          (6) The community does not have electricity, which makes it
              difficult for learners to study in the evening, be it at
              home or at school.


          (7) There is lack of seating facilities such as chairs and
              tables, resulting in some learners receiving lessons
              while standing and some sharing chairs and tables.
              Furniture had to be borrowed from the neighbouring school
              to alleviate the serious shortage. Some     learners
              moved to neighbouring schools with proper facilities,
              which have a 65% to 70% pass rate in Grade 12.


          According to the principal, Mr P G Mkhombo, the problem of
          accommodation infrastructure has long been known to the
          provincial education department, evidenced by an extract from
          a speech delivered by the former MEC for Education, the Hon Dr
          J Phaahla, when handing over Mkhweyantaba School from the
          local government and traditional affairs department to the
          education department on 5 December 1997 at Orinocco,
          Bushbuckridge.

          It became apparent that the need for appropriate accommodation
          infrastructure was long overdue. An appeal was therefore made
          to the Committee to assist in this regard.

          Parental support for educators is maximal, compared to the
          situation in the past. Parents avail themselves any time when
          the management office needs them to discuss critical matters
          regarding the school. There is strong ownership of the school
          by the community, and there is no sign of vandalism to school
          property. The community is in control of the premises and
          buildings.

          The SGB is incapacitated, as it does not seem to know the
          constraints within which it should operate as a functional
          structure and as part of the school, representing parents.
          They sometimes do not know their rights, constraints and
          limits. This could be attributed to the fact that about 98% of
          the parent component of the SGB is illiterate or semi-
          literate, which makes reading and understanding the material
          on their functions at school level difficult. Not much has
          been done in respect of capacity building.

          The educators are working very hard to improve results,
          especially for 2000. They have moved from 18% (1998) to 35,2
          (1999). This year the school is dedicated towards moving
          beyond 50% in respect of the Grade 12 pass rate. Textbooks and
          stationery were delivered on time.


     13.     Bombani Secondary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 421 learners (Grades 8
          to 12) and 13 educators (32:1). It is a brick structure, of
          which one classroom has been burnt down and extremely damaged
          (virtually destroyed) in 1995. Until now, no repair work has
          been done.

          Almost all the windows are broken (though burglar-barred),
          destroyed by children who used to play in the premises during
          and after hours.

          The school has a fence and is electrified. There are toilets,
          but they are not in a proper condition and are a health
          hazard. Nevertheless, they are still in use, by both learners
          and educators. There is an extreme shortage of furniture,
          textbooks and classrooms. Due to the shortage of classrooms,
          the school has resorted to use the burnt and damaged classroom
          to accommodate some learners, while other classes are
          conducted under a tree. In cold weather and during the rainy
          season, there is no schooling for those who receive lessons
          under the tree. The school managed to receive its stationery
          on time. There is no library and no laboratory.

          Grade 12 results were as follows: 1997 - 15,1%; 1998 - 31,1%;
          1999 - 48,1%.

          Although the learning process is continuing at this school,
          the slow progress has led to some learners leaving even before
          they reach Grade 12. As a result, the school has been regarded
          as a feeder to surrounding high schools, thereby further
          affecting Grade 12 results.

          Although the teacher/pupil ratio is only 32:1, the two HODs
          have to do all the administrative work and teach as well.
          Limited teaching resources make things difficult for teachers
          as well as learners. A burnt-down classroom, which was
          converted into a staff room, also contributes to the poor
          working conditions. The classroom situation is rendering the
          annual intake of Grade 8 learners unacceptable.

          Despite there being no record of vandalism, an urgent need
          exists to permanently appoint the night-watchman, a principal
          (as at present there is an acting principal) and a school
          clerk. There is need to have additional teachers, as two
          educators have recently left the school in fear of their
          personal safety.

          The school now needs a library and laboratory. Funds need to
          be available for construction of an administration block and
          at least three additional classrooms. Implementation of these
          will definitely bring about a significant improvement in
          respect of learners' progress in all grades.


     14.     Shobiyana High School


          The school was established in 1985, and has an enrolment
          figure of 776 learners (Grades 8 to 12), 30 educators (26:1)
          and 16 classrooms. The school has an electrified fence, and
          consists of a brick structure, part of which is extremely
          delapitated and in need of urgent repair and renovation.

          Almost all the classroom roofs have been blown away or
          destroyed, and ceilings have been damaged and need to be
          replaced or renovated. Despite all this, the schooling and
          learning process is continuing.

          Grade 12 pass rate: 1997 - 17,4%; 1998 - 44%; 1999 - 55,3%.

          The administration block was burnt down in 1990 during an
          uprising, but up to now nothing has been done by the
          department to repair, renovate and rebuild it. There is also a
          serious shortage of accommodation, and it is difficult to
          continue with the learning process in winter.

          There is a serious need for financial assistance in order to
          renovate the damaged and destroyed classrooms and
          administration block. Requests have been made to all local
          businesses to assist so as to rebuild and renovate the school,
          but no funding has been received. The leaking roofs and wall
          cracks may cause the building to collapse, which could mean
          injury to both learners and educators.

          Previously there was no support from the community, but after
          the arrival of some teachers, there was a drastic change in
          attitude.
          Co-operation from teachers is superb. As the community started
          to realise that the school was prosperous and constantly
          striving for excellence, it began to give good support.

          There are no proper toilet facilities; they still use pit
          toilets, which are not in good condition and are a health
          hazard. Urgent attention is needed to repair and renovate the
          school.


     15.     Mahashe Secondary School


          When the school started in 1996, it had an enrolment figure of
          46 learners, but now it has increased to 333 learners and six
          educators (56:1), including the principal. The school is a
          brick structure, partly of wood, with two classrooms. It has
          been electrified, and there are no broken windows. All windows
          and doors are burglar-barred.

          Although there is no fence around the premises, it is well-
          managed and controlled. The learners are very disciplined.

          This year the school's vision is presenting Grade 12 for the
          first time, aiming for a 100% pass rate. However, it needs
          resources to make this possible. Essential support services
          like textbooks and prescribed books for Grade 12 are seriously
          lacking. At present they rely on photocopies.

          There is also a shortage of staff. They did not get educators
          for higher grades, so they hired three educators to assist.
          They also do not have enough classrooms, no laboratory and no
          office for the principal.

          Toilet facilities are not enough, and they need proper
          sanitation. Additional funding is needed to build toilets and
          other urgent facilities. They also need a fence to safeguard
          the premises and property. They have made great strides in
          seeking funding from external donors in order to alleviate the
          problems and to motivate the learners to work hard.
          The school has good sportspeople who are very active in sport,
          so there is a need for facilities.

          Textbooks for Grades 11 and 12 were not delivered. On numerous
          occasions, the principal borrowed textbooks and other learning
          materials from the neighbouring school. Grades 8 to 10 do not
          have textbooks at all.


     16.     Dumazi High School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 742 learners and 22
          educators (34:1). It is a brick structure, one block being a
          damaged, prefabricated structure. About 70% of the windows are
          broken, but they have burglar bars.

          The entire school building is electrified, and it has 17
          classrooms, with no proper sanitation, no toilet facilities,
          no library and no laboratory. Funds are needed to improve the
          quality of the infrastructure, which at present is not
          conducive to teaching and learning.

          The department has already built a block comprising five
          classrooms, and in the past seven years the school has managed
          to get an extra classroom through efforts of the community. At
          present, with the help of the community, there is proper
          fencing to prevent vandals from entering the premises.

          Recent storms have damaged a number of classrooms and thus
          there are many cracks in the walls, which leak when it is
          raining, so learners cannot attend school and educators cannot
          teach.

          Grade 12 pass rate: 1994 - 71,4%; 1995 - 47,3%; 1996 - 36,2%;
          1997 - 29,3%; 1998 - 49,1%; 1999 - 35,1%. The rate is
          declining. Problems and conflict within the community are seen
          as the main reason for this. Disagreement among educators on
          the management plan is also seen as a reason for the decline,
          as it has affected the teaching process.
          For many years, the community was not supportive in improving
          the quality standards of the school. Community members tended
          to change classrooms into toilets. However, over the last two
          years, the community/school relationship has been improving.

          In 1999 the school was exposed to vandalism and theft, but
          this year nothing has been reported. In 1997 there was a break-
          in and a school generator was stolen. Subsequently it was
          found, but the culprits were not apprehended.

          The school did receive stationery, but no textbooks. Due to
          poor roads, suppliers cannot always reach the school to
          deliver textbooks.


     17.     Tshembani Primary School


          The delegation received an overwhelming welcome from both
          learners and educators at the entrance of the school.

          The school has an enrolment figure of 925 learners and 28
          educators (33:1), of which eight are awaiting redeployment.
          The building is a brick structure, which needs urgent
          renovation and maintainance. Few classroom windows are broken.

          The school was started in 1964, under unqualified teachers
          earning about R3,00 a month or nothing at all. It was a one-
          teacher school with 275 learners. The principal, Mr Chivambu,
          joined the school in 1965. In 1966 there were two teachers
          (one unqualified). In 1970 they managed to convince the tribal
          authority to build three classrooms, and it was then that
          Grade 8 classes were started.

          In 1980 enrolment increased, with a considerable number of
          educators and learners. From 1982 to 1986 the school excelled
          in producing the best Grade 7 results in the Giyani Circuit,
          and received a floating trophy for that. In 1984 the school
          convinced the former Gazankulu government to build further
          five more classrooms. In 1991, with the help of the "World
          Vision Project", they managed to build four more classrooms.
          In 1997 the government also assisted in building four more
          classrooms. Nevertheless, there is still a shortage of
          classrooms.

          In December 1999, they also managed to erect a fence to
          protect the building and windows from damage and destruction.

          The school falls under various pilot projects in the province,
          like "READ" (the foundation phase) and the Kgatelopele
          Technology Project. The educators are trained by means of the
          Readathon and also in respect of technology.

          They are now implementing OBE in respect of the foundation
          phase in Grade 7, and are working hard to promote the quality
          of education, but lacks sufficient equipment and materials to
          realise this. Stationery was received in good time last year,
          and this year they did receive textbooks.

          The school at present needs electricity for technology and
          science, six additional classrooms, an administration block,
          furniture (chairs and tables), a library, a laboratory,
          hygienic running water or water boreholes (no water in the
          school and in the community), toilets facilities, fencing for
          the school yard, a typewriter, audio-visual material (like
          computers), television, an overhead projector and a
          photocopying machine.

          Due to floods during February and March this year, damage was
          done to school property: Leaking roofs; damage to floors,
          doors and walls; two toilets collapsed; and roads were
          damaged. The principal informed the delegation that six
          educators residing in Thohoyandou and two from Malamulele
          could not get to school, as bridges they needed to cross had
          been washed away. The school is now used as shelter to
          accommodate families whose houses were damaged by the heavy
          rains.

          As this school is well-managed and well-controlled, and given
          its history of excellence, the government should make funding
          available to further improve the standard.


     18.     Tlharihani Primary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 1 164 learners and 35
          educators (33:1), with an excess of eight educators. It is a
          brick structure with semi-delapitated classrooms in urgent
          need of repair. In 1998, through negotiations involving the
          RDP, the provincial department and the community, a new block
          of eight classrooms was built. Unfortunately, it did not have
          electricity. The government of Norway has assisted the school
          to electrify some classrooms.

          The school is fenced to prevent vandals and goats from
          entering the premises. They were also supplied with
          chalkboards. The management congratulates the government for
          the developments.

          There is no furniture, and learners bring their own chairs.
          There is need for a new administration block. The roof of the
          old structure could collapse at any moment, which may cause
          injury to learners. Assistance is needed repair the roof,
          build the block and buy furniture.

          There is a serious problem of overcrowding, which makes the
          school ungovernable. At present, there are 18 classrooms
          available to accommodate learners- a shortage of six. The pit
          toilets are very dirty and not in good usable condition. The
          toilet holes are quite big and are kept locked, as they are
          deemed dangerous. These toilets are a health hazard. There
          being no water at the school, attempts have been made to get
          Public Works to attend to the problem.

          Both Grades 3 and 7 received all learning materials, except
          that classes have not started with OBE. There is great co-
          operation and parental support on all school activities.
          A feeding scheme which had helped some learners, was stopped.
          It was seen as very important for learners, because some
          community members are unemployed and very poor. There are also
          refugee learners from Mozambique. The principal has again
          applied for a feeding scheme to the Department of Welfare, but
          no response has been received.


     19.     Risinga High School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 854 learners and 35
          educators (24:1), an excess of 10 educators. It is a brick
          structure with no broken windows. The roof and ceilings were
          damaged by 1999 floods. The leaking roof in the administration
          block is causing further damage to furniture and interior
          walls.

          They have an excellent Grade 12 pass rate; in 1998, they
          obtained 62%, and in 1999 72%. The learners are highly
          disciplined and see education as their key to success.


     20.     Nhlalala Primary School


          The school was started in the early 1980s and has an enrolment
          figure of 560 learners and 15 educators (37:1). It is a brick
          structure with no broken windows and has big school grounds
          which are well-maintained. There are 16 classrooms.

          The foyer ceiling is leaking and causing further damage to
          offices and other classrooms. Most of the classrooms have no
          electricity, and water has damaged light bulbs in classrooms.
          Urgent repairs are needed.

          There are not enough funds to keep the school at a proper
          standard. They receive R30 000 per year in school fees, which
          is not sufficient. Most learners live in squatter camps and
          most of the parents are unemployed.


          There is feeding scheme, provided by the Department of
          Welfare, and parents are assisting with it. The school is
          properly fenced and all the toilets are in good working
          condition.


     21.     Holopondo Secondary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 416 learners and 17
          educators (25:1), an excess of three educators. A new block,
          built with bricks, has been erected by the community. About
          65% of classroom windows are broken. Some classrooms have
          burglar bars, others have leaking roofs. The community is
          aware of the damages, but at present there are no funds to
          repair the broken windows. They rely on school fees to replace
          or repair broken windows.

          Although the school is operational, there are problems with
          the entire school management. Recently, the female principal
          was evicted, so they have been operating without a manager.
          There are 16 classrooms, but they do not have enough
          furniture; some classrooms have no ceilings. Most Grades do
          not have any textbooks; they use photocopies. There are no
          proper toilet facilities for learners; educators use separate
          toilets, which are in good condition.

          The new block built by the community still needs windows,
          doors and ceilings, and they need money to put in place all
          these before the winter.

          There used to be a lot of stealing of furniture, so the
          community ensured that it took ownership of the school. There
          is no vandalism now.

          In 1998, the Grade 12 pass rate was 64%, but in 1999 it
          dropped to 35,1% because parents were forcing them to enrol
          failing learners from other schools. The management needs to
          be investigated.


 D.     Group B visits


     1. Mamabudusha High School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 704 learners and 32
          educators (22:1), some of whom are awaiting redeployment; they
          still need to be declared as excessive. There is an acting
          principal. They still need four HODs for language, mathematics
          and physical science.

          Teachers' performance is effectively monitored by the
          principal. In previous years, they had a good Grade 12 pass
          rate, but over the past two years it has dropped - the 1999
          rate was only 12%. When the then principal was asked to
          account for this, he decided to go on early retirement. They
          are at present striving for excellence, hoping to achieve a
          rate of above 40%.

          There are 17 classrooms, two fixed public telephones and a
          water tap. The entire infrastructure in delapitated, with
          almost all windows broken and damaged floors, roofs and
          ceilings. They need urgent repairs and renovations.

          There is no proper sanitation, no laboratory, no library, no
          sporting facilities and no administration block. One of the
          classrooms has been converted into a staff room. Educators and
          learners continue to use pit toilets, which are a health
          hazard. The road they use to get to school is bad and partly
          ruined. The only room which has electricity is the office of
          the acting principal.

          The previous administration block, which had a library and a
          home economics facility, was burnt down by learners during a
          demand for a change in school fees. All the computers donated
          by Telkom and solar panels supplied and installed by Eskom
          were stolen.

          Money raised to build toilets and install electricity supply
          was never used for that purpose, which has created many
          problems between learners and the management.

          Reasons for low performance are the following:


          (1) No proper management, and divisions among staff.


          (2) Furniture is stolen by the community.


          (3) The administration block was burnt down.


          (4) Interference by the community in management.


          They have made great strides in trying to resolve their
          problems. Teachers' morale has been directly affected by the
          above problems. Afternoon classes are conducted to eliminate
          the huge backlogs. There is good attendance and co-operation
          among learners.

          Regular meetings are held with the SGB to discuss ways of
          building the administration block. They have agreed to raise
          funds and to assist with the rebuilding, and learners are also
          co-operating.

          The district manager also pay regular visits and try to assist
          and advise them on the curriculum.


     2. Mabotja High School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 775 learners and 26
          educators (30:1). It was started in 1989 with 22 educators for
          Grades 8 to 10. In 1990 the school very proudly introduced
          Grade 11, and in 1992 Grade 12 was introduced, due to a
          student increase.

          This created problems in terms of classroom accommodation.
          Some classes had to be conducted in a shack. The school is
          generally in good condition, although there is no library, no
          laboratory and no sporting facilities.

          There are 12 classrooms, one of which burnt down in 1997. In
          1999, it was renovated.

          The Grade 12 pass rate in 1999 dropped from 23% to 16%;
          learners pass languages more than other subjects.
          Vandalism and theft of property are rife. All the equipment,
          furniture, typewriters and doors were stolen by members of the
          community. The book storeroom was also burnt down.

          They never received textbooks for new commercial subjects. Few
          parents can afford to buy textbooks, as most of them are
          unemployed. The school has to borrow some textbooks from
          neighbouring schools to continue with the process of learning
          and teaching.

          Drug addiction and alcohol abuse by learners during school
          hours on the school premises is very common.

          According to the principal, the weak performance is to be
          attributed to the following:


          (1) No textbooks for the new commercial syllabus.


          (2) The library was burnt down.
          (3) A lack of commitment and dedication from pupils and
              educators.


          In trying to solve these problems, meetings were held with
          Grade 12 educators to discuss problem areas and motivation
          strategies.


     3. Setotolwane School for the Blind and Kuschke Agricultural
          school


          The delegation could not meet with the educators, as they
          arrived very late at the school. The Committee apologises to
          the school and the community.


     4. Siloe School for the Partially Blind and the Blind


          The school has an enrolment figure of 238 learners and 38
          educators (6:1), three of which have been redeployed to other
          schools. The school is a brick structure, and the grounds are
          very neat and well-maintained.

          One blind educator has recently resigned. 110 learners are
          blind, while 128 are partially blind; most of them are
          albinos.

          This was the first school for the blind in South Africa,
          established by a Father from Belgium in the late 1950s. It is
          a public school, situated on a private property and funded by
          overseas Catholic missionaries who believe in christian
          values. Adv Malatji is the first blind advocate in South
          Africa who studied here. At present there are two vacant
          posts, one for the post of deputy principal and one for the
          post of HOD.

          For the past 10 years, the school has a 100% pass rate. One
          learner who obtained a 100% pass rate in mathematics is at
          present studying physiotherapy at UWC. The learners are highly
          committed and dedicated to strive for excellence, and they see
          education as the key to their success.

          The school caters for three languages, history, business
          economics, typing, biblical studies, and in 1999, mathematics
          was introduced. It also caters for vocational training -
          learners are taught in handcraft, leather belts, weaving mats
          and wall pictures, which are sold to the public to raise
          money. Learners are also trained in sport, and most of them
          are good traditional dancers.

          In 1996 some SADTU teachers refused to supervise learners
          during afternoon classes; even now they still refuse to do
          that.

          The delegation arrived at the school very late, which made it
          impossible to meet learners.


     5. Mogolo Secondary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 626 learners (Grades 8
          to 12) and seven educators (89:1). There is one block with
          four classrooms, and most of the windows are broken.

          There is a serious problem of overcrowding and a shortage of
          classrooms and educators. Due to the lack of classrooms, four
          shacks with no windows and doors have been converted into
          classrooms, while one classroom is used as a staff room,
          storeroom and library.

          In some Grades 8 and 9 classes, more than 143 learners are
          either cramped together in one class or placed under the tree,
          which makes it impossible for the educator to attend to each
          individual learner. As there is a shortage of educators, some
          learners are left unattended, which makes control and
          discipline impossible.

          As two educators have just resigned and another redeployed,
          the principal was hoping to get four more educators by the
          beginning of June 2000.

          None of the toilets can flush; they have been out of use for
          long. Learners and educators have to use the toilets at a
          neighbouring primary school, which may create another health
          hazard. There are no sporting facilities and the school
          grounds are not well-maintained. There is a problem of leaking
          taps, which need urgent repairs.

          Since establishment, they have never received any furniture.
          As no textbooks were received, they were supplied with the
          surplus of textbooks from the neighbouring school.


     6. Batau Secondary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 707 learners (Grades 1
          to 12) and 14 educators (51:1). It is a brick structure, in
          need of urgent repair and renovation. All the windows are
          broken, and the fence, toilet doors and the gate have been
          stolen by people from the community. There is a serious
          shortage of educators. Some learners are taught outside under
          the tree, and on rainy days and during cold weather, schooling
          does not take place.

          There is no furniture; some chairs and desks have been
          borrowed from neighbouring schools. There is also a shortage
          of classrooms; two shacks that were built are used as
          classrooms. One classroom has been converted into an office,
          staff room, storeroom and library, as there is no
          administration block. There are no sporting and recreational
          facilities.

          Although farmers in the area have made concerted efforts to
          donate temporary structures, like shacks, the community
          continues to vandalise and destroy them. Vandalism to school
          property are reported to the police station 10 km away. None
          of the reported cases have been solved.

          There is lack of parental support. Only 5% of parents attend
          school meetings. The majority have migrated to cities to find
          work, which makes them unable to attend to meetings to discuss
          matters and problems regarding the school. The Kgosi of the
          village does support the school, but the community does not
          want to take ownership of the school.


     7. Kabishi Primary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 1 462 learners and 13
          educators (113:1). It is a brick structure with no broken
          windows, and two shacks are also used as classrooms. The
          grounds are well-maintained and clean. The learners are well-
          mannered and disciplined.

          Enrolment figures are: 1995 - 350; 1996 - 631; 1997 - 986;
          1998 - 1 268; 1999 - 1 315; 2000 - 1 462. Grade figures are:
          Grade 1 - 240; Grade 2 - 243; Grade 3 - 193; Grade 4 - 235;
          Grade 5 - 192; Grade 6 - 174; Grade 7 - 185.

          There is serious overcrowding and a shortage of educators and
          classrooms, as enrolment increases annually. 19 posts still
          need to be filled to overcome the shortage.

          There is a great parental support. Parents contribute and
          raise money to pay for fencing to safeguard school property.

          At present there is no furniture and no administration block.
          Teaching aids and textbooks were never delivered. There are
          also no sporting facilities.

          As clean tap water is not available on the grounds, learners
          have to bring water from home. Aids programmes have not yet
          been introduced as part of the school programme.


     8. Phutinare Secondary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 768 learners and 31
          educators (25:1), including the principal, and offers
          education from Grades 8 to 12. It was established in 1976 and
          enrols learners from six villages. It is a brick structure,
          and almost all the windows have been damaged by learners who
          failed and who demanded to be passed. It took three weeks to
          solve these problems.

          Learners have to travel six km every day to get to school. The
          subjects offered are commercial, natural and human sciences.

          Grade 12 pass rate: 1995 - 36%; 1996 - 2,1%; 1997 - 15,6%;
          1998 - 6,8%; 1999- 40,2% (a great improvement).

          The education department has constantly pressurised the school
          to move learners to higher grades, which has resulted in a
          decline in the Grade 12 pass rate.

          Learners are abusing drugs. They smoke dagga which they get
          from the mountain near the school, where there is a big dagga
          plantation. This results in learners lacking discipline and
          progressing slowly at school. There is also a water shortage,
          and the toilets are not in good working condition.

          At present there is no administration block and teaching
          materials for mathematics and science for Grade 11. Stationery
          was received very late, and only one Economics 2000 textbook
          was delivered. There is no parental support and lack of
          respect amongst learners, as most of them do not live with
          their parents. There is also a lot of absenteeism -learners as
          well as educators. The management should be investigated.


     9. Belabela High School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 674 learners and 40
          educators (17:1), with an excess of 11 educators, and with no
          deputy principal and HODs. It is a double-storey brick
          structure with electricity, a fence, toilets and water, and no
          broken windows.

          Theft is rife: They were forced by the education department to
          buy their own stationery and to pay for electricity. The
          community constantly refuse to co-operate to solve the
          problem. As 70% of the learners live in squatter camps,
          parental support is minimal. Learners refuse to attend
          afternoon classes to improve the poor pass rate.


     10.     Mahlasedi Primary School


          The school has an enrolment figure of 1 000 learners and 24
          educators (42:1). It uses an empty hostel - four blocks with
          18 classrooms.

          There is a serious overcrowding, caused by the transfer of
          learners from a delapidated farm school to this school.
          Although they had a 76% pass rate in 1999 under these bad
          conditions, the process of teaching and learning needs to be
          continued. Interior and exterior walls must be repaired.

          There is no administration block, no sporting facilities, no
          furniture and a shortage of learning materials. They need
          materials like computers, fax machines and photocopiers.

          The structure is not conducive to learning and teaching. The
          community deserves a new brick structure and a decent school.


     11.     Mohlakamotala Secondary School
          This public school on private property has an enrolment figure
          of 470 learners and 17 educators (28:1), three of whom are
          temporary. The contract for the property has not been signed
          due to disagreement on the regulations.

          Since its establishment in 1993, it has had a top matric pass
          rate. In 1999, the Grade 12 pass rate was 93,6%, compared to
          the 1998 rate of 1,4% less. It offers various vocational
          subjects like science, mathematics, technology, travel and
          tourism, technical drawing, hotel catering, business economics
          and various languages. With the efforts of the educators, a
          new administration block was built.

          Textbooks and stationery were not delivered on time. There is
          a lack of communication between the department and the school,
          the circuit office is not well-equipped with materials to
          facilitate effective communication between school and
          department. There is also a shortage of classrooms - three
          additional classrooms are needed by the school.
     12.Noisebosch Secondary School


          This farm school has an enrolment figure of 86 learners and
          four educators (22:1), from Grades 1 to 11. It is situated on
          private property and consists of one classroom block, which is
          not conducive for learning and teaching. At present there is
          no principal, as he was evicted by the landowner. The acting
          principal has been functioning in that position for three
          years without any remuneration.

          There is no electricity and the toilets are not in good
          working condition. They did not even receive enough learning
          material for OBE. Most rural schools have been excluded from
          the OBE process.

          On 10 January 2000, the landowner farmer locked learners out
          of the classrooms, and the educators had to seek a court order
          to re-open them. He also intend to evict three educators and
          does not want to allow children of farmworkers to attend the
          school.
          There is lack of co-operation from the community and the SGB.
          Most parents feel that they have to be remunerated for support
          to the school. There are no proper channels of communication
          with the circuit office to relay problems.

          The school has a serious shortage of classrooms, textbooks,
          stationery and educators, no furniture, no administration
          block, no sanitation and water.

          The management is ineffective. Vandalism is rife, committed by
          the community themselves. The community does not want to take
          ownership of the school. All the problem areas are solved by
          the school management alone, without the support of the
          provincial department of education and communities. Parental
          support is minimal.

          Some schools are forced to pay for electricity and water
          supply themselves, whilst white schools do not have to pay for
          such services.
 E.     Solutions to problem


     Schools, communities, educators and learners should be actively
     involved in taking the initiative to change the schools, and
     communities and SGBs are always encouraged to co-operate and
     participate in the process. There is also a need to implement
     effective school management, and this management should be trained
     to mobilise the community to assist in school matters and to
     attend meetings.

     The evaluation of educators' performance should be conducted to
     identify the potential of those who can be promoted to HOD or
     principal.

     The education department should provide enough classrooms,
     furniture, proper sanitation, clean running water, electricity,
     educators, textbooks and stationery to all schools in need.
     Parliament should address the problem of non-existence of sport
     and recreational facilities in schools.

     There should also be compulsory education enforcers in communities
     to ensure that children attend classes, and legal structures
     should bind parents to ensure that their children are educated.

     All corrupt educators should be brought to book by enforcing
     disciplinary measures.


 F.     Comments and recommendations


     Areas that need urgent attention, are the following:


     (a)     Major repairs and renovations are required in most
          schools.


     (b)     A need to improve and upgrade existing libraries and
          develop mobile libraries.


     (c)     A need to implement effective management in most schools.


     (d)     Capacity-building of SGBs in financial management and
          school governance is needed in most schools.


     (e)     A need for electricity, sanitation and clean running
          water.


     (f)     Provincial departments of education should monitor
          adherence to national legislation, for example adherence to
          the prohibition of corporal punishment.


     (g)     A need to inculcate a sense of ownership of schools by
          communities.


     (h)     A need to encourage co-operation between previously
          advantaged and disadvantaged schools.


     (i)     A need to develop a rural strategy educational plan based
          on the visit and in accordance with the President's integrated
          rural strategy programme.


     (j)     Special budgetary provisions must be made to attend to
          backlogs as well as the present needs and inadequacies.
          Furthermore, provision has to be made to needs caused by
          natural disasters.
     (k)     This Report should be assessed within the broader context
          of the national schools' survey of needs.


     (l)     There is an urgent need to involve public representatives
          in the monitoring of educational issues in their
          constituencies.

     (m)     The role of district officials in giving support to
          schools needs to be evaluated.

     (n)     The Committee should on an ongoing basis monitor the
          implementation of these recommendations and determine the
          necessary time-frames for report-back on progress made.


 G.     Conclusion


     The Committee is satisfied that it had attained most of the
     objectives identified for the study tour.

     The delegations managed to lay the basis for a very constructive
     relationship with provincial governance structures. In the
     Northern Province, open and constructive discussions took place
     between the MEC for Education, Mr E Mushwana, the top management
     of the provincial education department and the delegation from
     Parliament.

     The visit also succeeded in highlighting the principles of
     "Tirisano", the Minister's Call to Action to provincial
     structures. The delegations examined severe conditions of physical
     degradation in the poorest rural areas, according to the objective
     of the tour. They found conditions of immense poverty, dilapidated
     schools and a lack of basic facilities at educational
     institutions. However, even under the worst conditions, the
     delegations found that dedication, discipline and hard work of
     teachers in the classroom had a greater influence on examination
     results than what physical conditions in schools could bring
     about. In most schools, the management needs to be seriously
     investigated.


 H.     List of participants


     1. MEC for Education and Culture: Mr E Mushwana.


     2. Provincial Department of Education.


     3. Mr R Matsana, PRO to MEC's office.


     4. Chairperson (Ms J Ndimande) and provincial standing committee
          on education.


     5. All principals and management of schools visited.


     6. Various communities, including school governing bodies.


     7. Regional, district and circuit managers.


     8. All communities visited, as well as those not visited for
          various reasons.


 Report to be considered.

                      TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Letter from the Minister for the Public Service and Administration to
 the Speaker of the National Assembly advising members of the Public
 Service Wage Settlement for 2000-2001.

 The letter has been distributed to members of Parliament.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

Resolutions of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for 2000 and
replies thereto obtained by the National Treasury - Fifth, Sixth and
Seventh Report, 2000.

1. The Minister of Labour:

Report and Financial Statements of the National Productivity Institute
for 1999-2000.

National Assembly:

Papers:

1. The Speaker:

 The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development submitted the
 following letter, dated 26 September 2000, to the Speaker of the
 National Assembly:


 Dear Ms Ginwala

 PROMOTION OF EQUALITY AND PREVENTION OF UNFAIR DISCRIMINATION ACT, 2000

 With further reference to your letter dated 22 May 2000 in the above-
 mentioned regard, I wish to inform you that under section 35 of the
 Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, 2000
 (Act No 4 of 2000), the President has fixed 1 September 2000 as the
 date on which sections 1, 2, 3, 4(2), 5, 6, 29 [with the exception of
 subsection (2)], 32, 33 and 34(1) of the said Act, came into operation,
 in order to facilitate the appointment of the Equality Review
 Committee.

 I also wish to inform you that I have, under section 32 of the
 Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, 2000
 (Act No 4 of 2000), established the Equality Review Committee and
 appointed the following persons as members thereof:


 (a)    In terms of section 32(a) of the Act, the Honourable Madam
     Justice T M Masipa, a senior judicial officer.

 (b)    In terms of section 32(b) of the Act, Dr N B Pityana, in his
     capacity as Chairperson of the Human Rights Commission.

 (c)    In terms of section 32(c) of the Act, Ms J Piliso-Seroke, in her
     capacity as Chairperson of the Commission of Gender Equality.

 (d)    In terms of section 32(d) of the Act, Mr V Saldanha, an attorney
     from Cape Town, as representative of civil society.

 (e)    In terms of section 32(e) of the Act, Prof S Gutto of the Centre
     of Applied Legal Studies of the University of the Witwatersrand,
     an expert in the field of human rights, especially the right to
     equality.

 (f)    In terms of section 32(f) of the Act, the Honourable Ms N Botha,
     a member of the National Assembly.

 (g)    In terms of section 32(g) of the Act, the Honourable Mr P D N
     Maloyi, a member of the National Council of Provinces.


 I have also appointed Dr Pityana as Chairperson of the Equality Review
 Committee.
 The Committee's office will be established soon, which will handle all
 queries. In the meantime, queries can be directed to:


 (a)    Dr N B Pityana
 The Chairperson: Equality Review Committee
 Private Bag 2700
 HOUGHTON
 2041
 Telephone number: (011) 484 8300
 Facsimile number: (011) 484 7146

 (b)    Ms T N Madonsela
 Chief Director: Transformation and Equity
 Department of Justice and Constitutional Development
 Private Bag X81
 PRETORIA
 0001
 Telephone number: (012) 315 1024
 Facsimile number: (012) 326 0991


 Thank you for your interest in this matter.

 Kind regards




 DR P M MADUNA, MP
 MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND
 CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Health on the National Health Laboratory Service Bill [B 52B - 2000] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), dated 10 October 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Health, having considered the subject of the National Health Laboratory Service Bill [B 52B - 2000] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on the Competition Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 10 October 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered the Competition Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 749), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 41C - 2000].