National Assembly - 01 November 2000
WEDNESDAY, 1 NOVEMBER 2000 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr N B FIHLA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the disciplinary action imposed on a member of this House for having abused his travel allowance;
(2) believes that this step is important in ensuring that public representatives do not abuse their privileges, and that it demonstrates the commitment and will of the ANC to act against corruption wherever it occurs; and
(3) welcomes steps taken by Parliament to uphold the highest standards of morality and honesty.
[Applause.]
Mr S E OPPERMAN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:
That the House -
(1) expresses its condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Farouk Daniels, a Democratic Alliance candidate, who died after a short illness; and
(2) acknowledges that Farouk was a hard worker, a true democrat and dedicated to the task of improving the lives of all the people in the community he served.
Mr J H SLABBERT: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes with shock that a North West mother and stepfather have been convicted of and sentenced for prostituting their three daughters aged 12, 16 and 19 respectively;
(2) is appalled to learn that some parents abuse the position of trust they have with children; and
(3) applauds Magistrate Renier Boschoff for sentencing the stepfather to an effective 50 years and the mother to 30 years in jail for such an abusive act.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the call by the DA’s mayoral candidate to Christians to choose between the Bible and the Constitution because the latter was written by communists;
(2) further notes that this grossly irresponsible statement was received with wide condemnation by the public and the press alike, as seen in the editorial of today’s Business Day;
(3) believes that Mr Peter Marais is a public embarrassment to Capetonians as a result of his most recent statement that reeks of a culture of discrimination, patriarchy and a narrow and intolerant brand of Christianity; and
(4) calls on Mr Tony Leon and the DA to break its deafening silence and to inform the public of its stand in this regard.
[Applause.]
Adv A H GAUM: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Demokratiese Alliansie sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis - (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Adv A H GAUM: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the Democratic Alliance:
That the House -]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, we have agreed that if you move a motion, you move it as an individual on behalf of your party and nothing else. Can you please start from the beginning.
Adv A H GAUM: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) kennis neem van die spesiale polisiediens wat in Stellenbosch gestig is, wat dag en nag sigbare voet-, fiets- en voertuigpatrollies in die woonbuurte sal doen; en
(2) ook daarvan kennis neem dat -
(a) die projek in 1998 begin is deur drie sakemanne wat die behoefte
aan gemeenskapgesteunde polisiewerk besef het;
(b) misdaad in die sentrale gebied met 80% verminder is met die hulp
van tien geslotebaankameras en twintig polisiereserviste;
(c) dié unieke buurtwag gesien word as die ``verwesen-liking van die
ideaal van gemeenskapspolisiëring";
(d) die DA in sy plaaslike verkiesingsmanifes die instelling van
munisipale polisiëring beklemtoon as een van die belangrikste
prioriteite; en
(e) die DA nie net ten gunste van munisipale polisiëring is nie,
maar ook in al die gebiede waar die DA oor die uitvoerende mag
beskik, munisipale polisiëring sal instel. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Adv A H GAUM: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes the special police service that has been established in Stellenbosch, which will undertake 24-hour visible foot, bicycle and vehicle patrols in the residential areas; and
(2) also notes that -
(a) the project was initiated in 1998 by three businessmen who
realised the need for community-supported police work;
(b) crime in the central area has been reduced by 80% with the aid
of ten closed-circuit cameras and twenty police reservists;
(c) this unique neighbourhood watch is seen as ``the realisation of
the ideal of community policing";
(d) in its local election manifesto the DA emphasises the
introduction of municipal policing as one of the most important
priorities; and
(e) the DA is not only in favour of municipal policing, but will
also implement municipal policing in all the areas in which the
DA has executive power.]
Mr T ABRAHAMS: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) accepts the argument that the Government should not be the prime provider of additional jobs and therefore should not directly and artificially create employment if it wishes to promote job creation;
(2) recognises the vital role that small and medium-sized businesses can play in terms of the creation and maintenance of employment;
(3) notes the tendency amongst large service organisations such as the short-term insurance industry to curb the creation and growth of small and medium-sized businesses by acts of exclusion; and
(4) urgently calls upon the Minister of Public Enterprises and the Minister of Trade and Industry to address the pre-democratic methods used by short-term insurers in distributing claims contracts for repairs to accident-damaged vehicles.
Mr S L DITHEBE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the ANC-led Government has built about 24 000 classrooms in the
historically disadvantaged areas over the past six years; and
(b) the ANC Government has ensured that one million more children
are absorbed by our transformed educational system;
(2) believes that these achievements demonstrate the commitment of the ANC-led Government to a compulsory, free, nonracial, nonsexist and dynamic education system for all; and
(3) commends the work done by the Government in ensuring that school- going pupils have access to a sound educational system, in pursuit of which our Government is making great strides.
[Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) the draft resolution by Dr R Rabinowitz printed in today's Order
Paper;
(b) the nonpartisan and well-balanced approach she took in
addressing the Middle East crisis; and
(c) the call on leaders who have close ties with Mr Arafat to
encourage him to discourage violence among Palestinian youths
and to embrace negotiation, compromise and nonviolence as the
only solutions to Palestinian self-determination and Israel's
survival; and
(2) therefore calls on -
(a) all political parties to openly endorse this draft resolution as
the ACDP is now doing;
(b) the South African Government to act impartially when dealing
with the ongoing conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians;
and
(c) members of this Parliament and civil servants to stop condemning
those who react, while exonerating those who provoke the
reaction and violence.
[Interjections.]
Mr G E BALOI: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:
That the House notes that - (1) the IEC intends to hold its first voter education workshop to enable the electorate to make well-informed decisions when voting in the first democratic election;
(2) the IEC is proposing to conduct local government election workshops on 2 November 2000 in Mafikeng in the North West province;
(3) the objective of the workshops will be to empower councillors, representatives from CBOs and NGOs and other relevant stakeholders with the necessary knowledge to educate communities on elections; and
(4) the IEC invites all stakeholders to participate in these workshops.
Ms N L HLANGWANA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that - (a) a National Public Works Anti-Corruption Conference was held on 25 and 26 October 2000; and
(b) the theme of the conference was ``Corruption Kills Service
Delivery";
(2) believes that this is further testimony of the commitment and resolve of the ANC-led Government to fight corruption at all levels of government;
(3) commends Minister Stella Sigcau for this initiative; and
(4) calls on the department’s officials at all levels to stand by the pledges they signed and to root out corruption wherever it occurs.
[Applause.]
Mr E K MOORCROFT: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House - (1) notes -
(a) the alleged environmental and health problems occurring in close
proximity to 26 goldmine dumps stretching from Krugersdorp to
Boksburg;
(b) that these problems, including silicosis and other debilitating
diseases, are caused primarily by the effects of dust issuing
from these dumps; and
(c) that this pollution, including large-scale pollution of run-off
water occurring in the environment in which tens of thousands of
people live, constitutes a violation of the constitutionally
enshrined environmental rights of our people; and
(2) calls on the various Ministers concerned to address this problem with the utmost urgency.
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP: That the House -
(1) notes with concern the impasse between traditional healers and scientists on a herb called ``Green Gold’’ because of its psychoactive qualities;
(2) is amazed at the behaviour of two botanists for selling patent rights to Pharma Natura without the consent of the traditional healers in Namaqualand who discovered the herb’s medicinal use before these scientists; and
(3) requests the scientists to desist from such practices, as South Africa is a signatory of the convention saying that profits from the development of indigenous knowledge should be shared with indigenous people.
Ms F I CHOHAN-KOTA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) President Thabo Mbeki today opened a park in the area of
Avonwood Park, Elsies River, pursuant to a promise that he had
previously made to this community; and
(b) for the first time, the young people in this community will have
a safe recreational area; and
(2) commends -
(a) the President for honouring his promise; and
(b) the ANC Youth League which has been instrumental in bringing
this project to fruition.
[Applause.]
Dr S J GOUS: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House - (1) notes that -
(a) the World Health Organisation has approved and is advocating the
use of antiretrovirals for the prevention of mother-to-child
transmission of HIV;
(b) the Minister of Health misled the South African public and
Parliament by creating the impression that there are no offers
to accelerate access to HIV/Aids care and treatment in
developing countries, as the Minister stated that ``drug
companies have not tabled any substantive offer"; and
(c) the Leader of the Opposition, in a recent visit overseas, has
determined that there are substantial offers on the table by the
WHO, UNAIDS and multinational pharmaceutical companies, of which
other developing countries have taken advantage; and
(2) calls on the Government, the Department of Health and the Minister of Health to review their existing policy of not using antiretrovirals to prevent mother-to-child transmission of HIV by following the example of the DA in the Western Cape, where the DA is in a position to provide life-saving drugs, and is doing so.
[Time expired.]
Chief N Z MTIRARA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) notes the shocking revelations made by a member of the Northern Province legislature, Tjol Lategan, that the Northern Province government kept shares worth more than R100 million invested in the Lebowa Platinum Mine secretly and that these shares are used for covert operations;
(2) is appalled that the information on these shares, which were owned by the former Lebowa Government and transferred to the Northern Province government in 1994, is not reflected on the statement of assets and liabilities of the provincial government;
(3) is dismayed and disappointed that these shares are not being utilised for the benefit of the entire province, given the general collapse of services and, in particular, the infrastructure in the province; and
(4) calls on the Ministers of Finance and of Minerals and Energy to intervene and normalise the situation.
Mr M J G MZONDEKI: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the ANC-led Government has embarked on a land redistribution
programme; and
(b) through this programme, the dignity of thousands of landless
people has been restored;
(2) believes that the pace of land redistribution needs to be increased to meet the needs of the landless majority and address the skewed landownership patterns in our country; and
(3) commends the Government for dealing with land distribution in an orderly manner.
[Applause.]
APPOINTMENT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE TO NOMINATE PERSONS TO FILL VACANCIES ON COMMISSION FOR GENDER EQUALITY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J H MOMBERG: Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House, in accordance with section 193(5) of the Constitution, appoints an ad hoc committee to nominate persons to fill the existing and pending vacancies on the Commission for Gender Equality, the committee -
(1) to consist of 27 members in the following proportions: ANC 14, DP 2, all other parties 1;
(2) to exercise those powers in Rule 138 that may assist it in carrying out its task;
(3) to take into consideration the list of candidates proposed by interested parties which will be referred to the committee; and
(4) to complete its task by 15 February 2001.
Agreed to.
SECOND ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(First Reading debate)
Ms F B MARSHOFF: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, when the Minister of Finance tabled the Adjustments Estimate in this House on 12 October 2000, he stated that the purpose of these estimates was to seek Parliament’s permission to raise the level of public spending from the original amount of R233,5 billion as budgeted for in the Main Estimate that was tabled in February this year to R235,2 billion.
As the Minister also indicated, these increased allocations to various Votes are to provide for the unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure experienced by the departments affected. This is unforeseen expenditure owing to the fact that, at the time when the Budget was tabled in February, nobody knew that they would have to deal with some of these specific issues. This is unavoidable expenditure because even if we had known and tried our utmost to circumvent these occurrences, they would have happened in any case. We would not have been in a position then, and even now, to wish them away. However, we must also acknowledge that some of these additional allocations could have been and should have been foreseen. The committee felt strongly that this type of behaviour is unacceptable.
We need to congratulate the national Treasury for the sterling work done, especially with regard to increased revenue collection. I must specifically mention here the SA Revenue Service for the extra work done with regard to revenue collection. The increased revenue collection amounted to approximately R1,8 billion more than the February estimates, thus reducing the cost on servicing the debt by an estimated R142 million. This translates into an unchanged budget deficit of 2,6% of the gross domestic product, despite the increased expenditure of R1,9 billion.
I am sure that hon members have taken note of the details for the Adjustments Estimate as set out in the explanatory memorandum that accompanied the Bill. I do not want to go into details, save to mention a few specific areas.
The amounts allocated under Vote 3 for Agriculture, Vote 8 for Education and Vote 9 for Environmental Affairs and Tourism are really self- explanatory. No one can dispute the fact that it is not just in the national interest, but also in the interest of our neighbours, as well as that of the international community, that we should be seen to protect communities against the outbreak of diseases amongst our livestock. The money spent on combating and containing the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in KwaZulu-Natal is money well-spent.
The additional money allocated to Education for the incorporation of colleges of education into institutions of higher learning is a policy prerogative that has been effected into legislation. This money is to assist the transitional arrangements to ensure that the incorporation is managed in a smooth and very cost-effective way. A large proportion of the money is earmarked for disaster and poverty relief, and for the newly established local authorities.
Money is also allocated to provinces, and we all know that it is at this level that service delivery takes place. It therefore comes as no surprise to us that provincial budgets are under severe pressure, especially after our country has been hit by natural disasters such as floods and outbreaks of diseases such as malaria, cholera and foot-and-mouth disease in KwaZulu- Natal.
But over and above this, there are also the demands made on the budgets for health, education and welfare. In health alone, the impact that HIV/Aids will have on service delivery is tremendous. We are aware that an additional amount of R75 million for Aids prevention initiatives was voted for in the Main Estimate. This, however, does not provide for sufficient resources to cope with the epidemic and the impact it has on provincial budgets. It is hoped that as the amount increases over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period, more attention will be given to the overall spending patterns of not only health, but also all the departments in combating the disease.
One of the unforeseeable expenditures that we are addressing in these estimates is the payment of birthday bonuses for civil servants celebrating birthdays between January and March of each financial year. We are happy to endorse the move taken to pay these bonuses in the month of their birth rather than in April, as has been the practice up till now. I am sure it will make our work much easier if we do not have to anticipate such unavoidable and unforeseeable expenditure in the future.
The ANC will support this Vote and we will also vote for the adoption and approval of the Adjustments Estimate before us. I would like to thank the Department of Finance and all those who have put so much effort into the work connected with this Bill. I would like to say to all departmental heads that they have again proved to us that we have the skills and the capacity to manage taxpayers’ money and the finances of this country effectively. We salute them.
In conclusion, on behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Finance, I would just like to wish the hon Serake Leeuw - although he is not in the House right now - lots of luck in his new endeavours - he has just entered the House - after having been nominated as the executive mayor designate for the Goldfields region in the Free State. We want to assure him that we will miss his valuable input in the finance committee and we wish him well. We also wish him a very joyous and successful campaign, and we will definitely see him after he has become mayor. I wish the hon Mike Ellis would reconsider his position within the DA. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr K M ANDREW: Chairperson, it is always a pleasure to follow the hon Ms Marshoff.
One needs to assess this Adjustments Estimate against three criteria. Firstly, is the total amount reasonable in relation to the size of the original budgeted expenditure? In this regard, the increased envisaged expenditure of R3,9 billion is 1,7% of the original budgeted expenditure of R231 billion. This is an acceptable level, particularly in the light of the additional expenditure caused by the floods earlier this year and the fact that the Minister is obliged to present his Budget before the public sector salary negotiations are completed. These two items account for more than half of the total amount.
The second question is whether particular items of expenditure or transfer of funds within a Vote are desirable and prudent. I shall leave it to my colleagues to deal with individual issues when the Votes and Schedules are discussed in a few minutes’ time. The third criterion is whether the Bill complies with the law or not. On this score, we have serious reservations.
Section 30(2)(b) of the Public Finance Management Act requires that a national adjustments budget may only provide for ``unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure’’. It has to be both. There is no provision for additional expenditure simply because the Cabinet or anybody else considers it desirable. In our opinion, a number of the items budgeted for do not meet this criterion, which was deliberately put into the Public Finance Management Act to enhance the integrity and credibility of our budgeting processes and to discourage Ministers and departments from thinking that they had a second bite at the cherry after the Main Budget was passed.
Let me illustrate this with a couple of examples. Under Vote No 14: Home Affairs, there is an amount of R318 million for the Independent Electoral Commission. Everyone knew that there were going to be local government elections this fiscal year, and the IEC had submitted budgets to cover what it needed. Despite its request for much more, the IEC was only allocated R450 million in the Main Budget.
We are now being asked to believe that its allocation needs to be increased by R317 million, or 71%, because that expenditure was unforeseeable and unavoidable. This is nonsense. This cannot be so. It is a result of the National Treasury and/or the Department of Home Affairs playing games with the IEC, which repeatedly indicated that it needed more money to do its job.
A second example is the amount of just over R14 million allocated for the National Conference on Racism, which was announced by the President at the opening of Parliament. How this can be considered unforeseeable and unavoidable is beyond me, and indicates that when it suits the Government, they bend the rules to suit themselves.
The third example which I wish to highlight, although there are others, is the National Treasury Vote itself. There is a provision for Sars to be given an additional R28,6 million for the implementation of new tax proposals, claimed to be unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure. This gives rise to two possibilities. Either the Minister of Finance did not tell his department what he was planning to do or he did not take the trouble to investigate thoroughly what the costs involved in implementing his new tax proposals were likely to be. In either case, this is an indictment of the procedures followed and an extremely bad example for the Minister of Finance to set for other departments, and certainly cannot be categorised as unforeseeable and unavoidable.
Parliament can choose to ignore the laws of South Africa when it seems convenient to do so, but the DP is not prepared to go along with this approach. Either laws are there to be obeyed, whether they happen to be convenient or not, or we pick and choose when we wish to obey the laws of this country. We are of the opinion that a number of the adjustments contained in this Bill are not in accordance with the law and we will therefore be opposing this Bill.
Parliament, of all bodies in our society, should be setting an example and adhering scrupulously to the letter and the spirit of the law. If we choose to ignore the law when it suits the Government to do so, we can hardly complain when others indulge in corrupt or improper practices in defiance of the law.
Mr J H MOMBERG: Bring back some sanity, Dr Woods!
Ms M SMUTS: On the contrary, we are waiting to hear … [Interjections.]
Dr G G WOODS: All these expectations! Chairperson, the size and vastness of a country’s budget, together with unexpected developments after its production, make adjustments inevitable in the course of a fiscal year.
The main question that we therefore are meant to ask ourselves on this occasion each year is whether the size and nature of the proposed amendments are reasonable and acceptable. To keep this in context - and I think the hon Marshoff did refer to this - we need to acknowledge that the increased expenditure which necessitates these adjustments is more than offset by revenue gains or the tax overruns for the same period, representing an overall improvement of the budget deficit.
Regarding the actual adjustments, our view is that while there is an increase of under 2% of total expenditure in a fiscal year, as it currently is in this year, it indicates that expenditure levels are more or less under control. However, we do see that this control is a somewhat heavy- handed type of control by the Minister.
There is currently insufficient sophistication in the detailed expenditure estimation techniques, and expenditure management methods used by Government, we cannot realistically expect any significant lowering of this percentage until the new Public Finance Management Act is fully implemented. This, which is likely to take two to three years, will introduce expenditure planning and management practices which will lessen the incidence of unavoidable and unforeseeable expenditure, and will give more accurate answers where such incidents exist. As such it will mean not having to go through the somewhat pretentious ritual of scrutinising adjustments which arise from a budget where large globular sums of money are voted against vaguely desired outcomes and, further, where money is randomly viremented between programmes during the budget period.
Notwithstanding the state of affairs, we have played the game and we have looked at the individual adjustments as listed in the Bill, and there are no adjustments with which we wish to take issue this year. We therefore support the Bill.
Dr P J RABIE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, the aim of this Bill is to appropriate adjusted amounts of money for the requirements of state in respect of the financial year ending 31 March 2001.
The total revised expenditure amounts to R235,241 014 billion, which represents an increase of 1,68%. The Public Finance Management Act is extremely important and must be taken into account when the revised expenditure for the fiscal year is evaluated.
I want to come back to the main purpose of this Bill, which is to modernise the present system of financial public management to enable public sector managers to manage but, at the same time, to be accountable, to ensure the timely provision of all quality empirical data, and to eliminate waste and corruption in the use of public assets.
Dit is belangrik om te let op die doeleindes waarvoor dié geld aangewend word en ek verwys hier pertinent na die landbou. Landbougerigte aktiwiteite is veral in ons agtergeblewe landelike gebiede van sleutelbelang. Ek verwys hier na enkele bedrae wat aangewend is om bek-en-klouseer en sprinkaanplae in die noordelike grensprovinsies te bekamp.
Dit is baie maklik om hier sulke bedrae te noem, maar agb lede moet hul die vraag afvra of dit daadwerklike, pro-aktiewe stappe is wat gedoen is en of dit bloot reaktiewe stappe is. Soos agb lede weet, was daar onlangs gerugte van verdere uitbrake van bek-en-klouseer in KwaZulu-Natal. Dit kan verder versprei en ook die wolbedryf in die land beïnvloed wat in die buiteland vir ons waardevolle valuta verdien. Ek versoek dat daar werklik indringend na dié bedreiging vir ons landboubedryf gekyk word. In dieselfde asem wil ek ook verwys na vroeëre berigte oor besoedeling deur die chemiese bedryf waarby die Thor-fabriek betrokke was. Dit toon weer eens die leemtes in en gebrek aan monitering van hierdie vervaardigingsbedryf wat toksiese afval aan die omgewing vrystel. Daar word weer eens reaktief aandag aan die probleem geskenk.
Die verspreiding van malaria van ons buurlande en aangrensende gebiede na Suid-Afrika wek groot kommer onder buitelandse beleggers. Agb lede kan hul weer eens die vraag afvra welke voorkomende maatreëls getref is om die verspreiding van malaria te voorkom. Toerisme is een van die min bedrywe in die land wat nog ‘n groeipotensiaal toon. Soos die gebrek aan persoonlike veiligheid bedreig die verspreiding van malaria die bedryf en die vraag wat ons aan die agb Minister vra, is watter voorkomende maatreëls getref is en of dit werklik voorkomend en pro-aktief of reaktief van aard is.
Die laaste aspek wat hier ter sprake kom, is die repatriasie van vreemdelinge wat van ons buurlande afkomstig is. Weer eens word daar sekere bedrae geld genoem. Die vraag wat ons vra, is op watter produktiewe wyse hierdie geld aangewend word. Is dit nie net om die werklikhede te verdoesel nie, of word hier werklik iets gedoen om die immigrasie van onwettige vreemdelinge uit die buurlande doelmatig te bekamp?
Die laaste vraag handel oor die bedreiging van die MI-virus, wat ook ons ekonomiese vooruitgang in hierdie land in ‘n besondere mate strem. Dit is nodig om te praat en nie die werklikhede te ignoreer nie. Hierdie aangeleentheid bedreig elke persoon in hierdie land. Elke landsburger en elke sektor van die ekonomie word bedreig. Die vraag wat ons onwillekeurig moet vra, is of die Regering dit erns het met hierdie gevaarlike probleem. Die Nuwe NP kan nie hierdie wetsontwerp steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[It is important to note the purposes for which this money is utilised and here I am referring specifically to agriculture. Activities aimed at agriculture are of key importance, particularly in our disadvantaged rural areas. Here I am referring to certain amounts which were utilised to combat foot-and-mouth disease and locust plagues in the northern border provinces.
It is every easy to mention such amounts here, but hon members must ask themselves whether the steps taken were decisive, pro-active steps or whether they were merely reactive steps. As hon members know, there have been recent rumours of further outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in KwaZulu-Natal. This can spread further and also influence the wool industry in the country, which earns us valuable revenue abroad. I request that we look truly incisively at this threat to our agricultural industry.
In the same breath I also want to refer to earlier reports about pollution by the chemical industry, in which the Thor factory was involved. This once again indicates the shortcomings in and lack of monitoring of this manufacturing industry which releases toxic waste into the environment. Once again, the problem is receiving reactive attention.
The spread of malaria from our neighbouring countries and bordering areas to South Africa is causing great concern among foreign investors. Hon members can once again ask themselves what preventative measures have been taken to prevent the spread of malaria. Tourism is one of the few industries in the country which still has a growth potential. As was the case with a lack of personal safety, the spread of malaria is threatening the industry and the question we want to put to the hon the Minister is what preventative measures have been taken and whether these are really proactive and preventative or reactive in nature.
The last aspect which is at issue here, is the repatriation of aliens from our neighbouring countries. Once again certain amounts of money are mentioned. The question we are asking is how this money is being utilised in productive ways. Is this not merely to obscure the reality, or is something really being done here to combat the immigration of illegal aliens from neighbouring countries?
The final question deals with the threat of the HI-virus, which also hampers our economic progress in this country to a particular extent. It is necessary to talk and not ignore the realities. This matter threatens every person in the country. Each citizen and each sector of the economy is under threat. The question we must involuntarily ask is whether the Government is serious about this dangerous problem. The New NP cannot support this Bill.]
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Mr Chairperson, we want to thank the Minister of Finance and the National Treasury for another good set of quality and transparent documents. To further improve the information provided in the Second Adjustments Estimate, we would like to suggest the following: firstly, reasons for unavoidable and unforeseeable expenditures must be provided in these documents - in other words, a short motivation by the relevant department as to why an expenditure is unforeseen and unavoidable. We should therefore consider reshaping the Budget to explain why expenditure is unforeseen and unavoidable.
Secondly, expenditures should not be clustered unnecessarily. For example, in the adjustments of the Treasury, an amount of R800 million has been clustered, in that salary adjustments and fuel cost increases have been grouped together for no obvious reason. In the individual memorandums of departments many departments have followed the same procedure. We think we must change that. Thirdly, there should be a more user-friendly presentation of the revised expenditure, as compared to the expenditure provided for in the Main Budget, in the explanatory memorandum.
We have a few major concerns about amounts provided in the Adjustments Estimate. For example, the SA Revenue Service requested an amount of R317 million, largely to implement new tax laws, but will receive less than R29 million. This will surely impact severely and negatively on their capacity in this regard.
Some departments are obviously guilty of late budgets and late agreements included in the Adjustments Estimate, for example the Department of Home Affairs. The R12 million provided for the combating of foot-and-mouth disease will probably not be sufficient to combat the recent outbreak of this disease in KwaZulu-Natal.
The overconcentration of consultancy services in the Department of Public Works has resulted in the single largest roll-over of funds of any department in the current year. They will need superior quality financial management to steer this ship clear of the rocks. Lastly, there is the less- than-clear memorandum of the Department of Social Development, against the background of a history of money not spent.
The UDM will not politicise the Adjustments Estimate for petty gain, but intends to direct straightforward questions to certain Ministers.
Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, this Bill aims to address the unforeseeable expenses of the Government. Although we would agree with the hon Andrew with regard to the concerns he raised here, as the ACDP we do not believe that we should vote against this Bill, but we feel that we should just point out to the Government that the concerns raised are, in fact, legitimate concerns.
In our country we had a projected forecast of about 3,5% as a growth rate for this fiscal year. It is now widely accepted that the growth rate will be about 2,4%. We do not discount the effect of global factors on our economy. It is the vulnerability of our economy that is our concern. We cannot continue accepting a situation where our economies in Africa are seen as being on a life support system, supported by the world market.
The single most important imperative for economic stability, along with fiscal discipline, is fiscal management. Perhaps this is the area where we have to raise our concerns, and the concerns that have been raised are legitimate.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I would like to thank those parties that are supporting the Bill.
Let me deal with a few of the other issues raised. I think the hon Andrew, as usual, tries to stretch the point. He is reading from a different Public Finance Management Act, because mine, in section 30(2)(b), says:
… unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure recommended by the national executive or any committee of Cabinet members to whom this task has been assigned …
He reads it differently. I do not know which version he has. He is trying to make a point.
However, running a country is not the same as running a corner shop. He will never get the experience of running a country, and he should get that into his head. [Interjections.] It is stretching a point to suggest that what is happening here is akin to corrupt or improper practices - that is stretching the point and he should withdraw that without reservation.
In respect of the IEC, clearly there is a fair amount of budget that came in. Part of the objective of constructing budgets is to bring them into the realm of what is realisable and affordable, because some of the extragovernmental agencies will set budgets that this country cannot afford. And during the course of that these kinds of issues arise, and we accept that. I will come to Sars in a moment.
In respect of the hon Dr Rabie’s remarks, I regret that he gave no motivation for his views, but it is very clear that his master’s voice is talking in the circumstances. [Interjections.] If, indeed, he followed the issue of Thor Chemicals that he raised, he would realise that this had arisen under NP rule. And in the detail of the memorandum mention is made of a study to investigate the impact on ground water of the mercury poisoning resulting from poor NP practices.
In respect of Sars, I think the point was correctly argued, and I would like to thank Dr Koornhof for the position of the UDM on this matter. Sars requires a lot more money, because we understand the importance of being exemplary, especially for those departments that report to the Minister of Finance. We explored the detail and, given the framework of the Public Finance Management Act in the context of section 30(2)(b), realistically they can make a claim in the circumstances. And that is where the R28 million arose. We could not fully anticipate the impact of the adjustments on the capital gains tax or, indeed, the shift from source to residents - that we will debate in this House later this week.
In respect of foot-and-mouth disease, we had the best estimates available. The most recent outbreak could not have been foreseen. This has not been as a result of the same stocks which were available for the piggeries. This largely has been transported by humans. And so there were issues that could not have been foreseen then. We are in very dynamic contact with the Department and Ministry of Agriculture to try and understand. I think we fully appreciate that we would like to restore South Africa to the position where our meat exports are received all over the world, and we understand that we have a responsibility to ensure that. I thank the House for the discussion on the debate. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I am specifically addressing the two hon members, hon De Beer and hon Cassim, and I am saying, Order! [Interjections.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a first time.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 247: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Belot, S T; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Capa, R Z N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan- Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gininda, M S; Gomomo, P J; Govender, P; Green, L M; Grove, S; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Leeuw, S J; Lekgoro, M K; Lobe, M C; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabeta, M E; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Makwetla, S P; Malebane, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa- Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Momberg, J H; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Naidoo, S; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, N B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, N N; Ntshangase, I B; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Pahad, A G H; Phala, M J; Phantsi, E; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Routledge, N C; Saloojee, E C; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 46: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Blaas, A; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Grobler, G A J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Bill read a first time.
SECOND ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the proceedings will initially take the form of a question-and-answer session. I hope we all understand this. We have done this several times. I shall put each vote in turn, whereupon members will have the opportunity to put questions to the relevant Minister. Honourable members should please wait until I recognise them before putting their questions.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, may I draw your attention to Rule 291, which is headed `Consideration of Schedule to Appropriation Bill’’. It says:
When the First Reading of an Appropriation Bill has a Schedule which has been approved …
Which is what we have just done -
… the Votes in the Schedule must be discussed.
There is no suggestion within this Rule that only questions and answers are permitted. Discussion, comment is permitted. You will see under Rule 293, ``Approval of Votes in Schedule, that it refers to a debate. So I just want to pre-empt potential problems. I just want to draw your attention to the Rule, with respect.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, that is what the Rule says, as the hon Andrew has read it. We have just discussed the Second Adjustments Appropriation Bill. If you wish to make a comment you are allowed to do so, but you must bear in mind that you are utilising your own time. Remember that there is a certain amount of time allocated to each political party and we will be strict about that time. Are you happy, hon member? OK. [Interjections.]
Order! You are in too much of a hurry, hon Ellis. We are certainly coming to the Vote you are looking for.
Vote No 3 - Agriculture:
Adv S P HOLOMISA: Chair, the question I have for the Minister is: Noting that R12 million has been allocated for the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in KwaZulu-Natal, how much of that amount has been used so far? With the latest indication that a further approximately 4 000 head may be slaughtered, does the Minister believe that she may need more? If yes, how much more can I give you? I mean, how much more is estimated? [Laughter.]
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chair, I would really appreciate it if Inkosi yamahegebe, Inkosi Holomisa, could give me more money, not just for the foot-and-mouth disease but for the agricultural programme in general. [Laughter.] As he has indicated, we have been given R12 million to actually deal with the foot-and-mouth disease that has been identified in Camperdown and also with new infections which have been found in the Georgedale area and more specifically in Sankontshe and Mopela next to Mpumalanga township.
So far the way we had calculated the use of that money was that R3 million was going to assist us in the administration and other related costs for the eradication programme, particularly to support some of those officials who were sent to KwaZulu-Natal from other provinces and the national department as well as some of the universities. Of this amount R9 million was actually going to cover compensation to those farmers who are affected. Compensation has actually been paid out as from Monday to both commercial farmers and communal farmers who have been affected in this area, and so far about R1 million has been spent. We cannot estimate how much of that will be spent at what time because we are paying out as we stamp out the disease in that area.
As to how much we may require, at this stage we are not sure, but we are in contact with the Treasury and with Cabinet as we undertake the programme of the eradication of foot-and-mouth disease in this country.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, can I just ask you, sir: Are we going to be voting on these Votes afterwards?
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes, we will be voting.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I am sorry, but you are going too fast. The DP wanted to ask a question on Correctional Services. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Ask the question, hon member. Vote No 6 - Correctional Services:
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Mr Chairperson, I would like to pose a question to the Minister of Correctional Services. In light of the estimated overexpenditure for the item Administration to the amount of R718 million, was the transfer of the funds pertaining to care, development and community corrections the sole reason for the release of thousands of awaiting-trial and convicted prisoners?
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Mr Chairperson, the Department of Correctional Services is one of Government’s biggest departments. I am also aware of the fact that because of the way in which it is growing, it is going to become South Africa’s 21st century of concrete villages for the poor, whether we like it or not. [Laughter.]
However, to the hon member, the transfer to the item Administration is not as a result of that but it is as a result of funds shifted from medical budgets for personnel to the item Administration, as per request from the national Treasury. So, it is not as a result of the released prisoners, but it has to do with the medical budget fund for personnel. Vote No 7 - Defence:
Mr M E MABETA: Madam Speaker, will the Minister give us a breakdown of the specific professional services for which an additional budget allocation of R71,8 million is sought. What are these payments specifically for? Where is the transformation budgeted for in this programme? Has the determination of the transformation Bill been budgeted for in this round?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I would imagine that the question refers to the allocation with regard to the joint support that has been performed by the SANDF. These are the kinds of situations that the SANDF is unable to plan for beforehand, because they are not anticipated. This is in connection with the performance of our secondary role in terms of emergency aid and support in terms of the floods that occurred earlier this year. The allocation is mainly going towards the maintenance of our helicopter fleet.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Before we come to Vote No 8, I wish to inform members that the hon the Minister of Education is unable to attend the sitting today owing to a family bereavement. He has tendered his apologies. The hon the Minister of Finance will respond on his behalf.
Vote No 8 - Education:
Adv A H GAUM: Madam Speaker, this is then directed to the Minister of Finance. There is a 305% increase in the allocation for education, human resource development and equity from R7 million to R28 million. Part of this increase is attributed to the shifting of funds from Programme 3 which is General and Further Education and Training. Now, my question is: How does the Minister justify shifting funds from General, and Further Education and Training, in view of the dire need for funds for the training and in-service training of teachers?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, the training of teachers is not the responsibility of the national Department of Education. If the hon member were familiar with the Constitution, he would know that primary and secondary education is a provincial function and therefore not covered by the adjustment. [Interjections.] This is an internal arrangement within the national Department of Education, which is, at the end of the day, responsible for policy development and also for supporting tertiary education, perfectly in line with the norms of the Constitution. [Interjections.]
Adv A H GAUM: Madam Speaker, what is the purpose then of the budget item: General and Further Education and Training? The Minister should note that this does not relate to higher education, but indeed to primary and secondary education.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, Further Education and Training is that area of education that falls between the Department of Labour and the Department of Education. It deals with school leavers, primarily pupils who have left school early. Old style community colleges and technical colleges would be converted into institutions of further education and training. There have been a Green Paper and a White Paper that were debated in this House. That is what further education and training covers.
Mr S J DE BEER: Madam Speaker, the Minister will note that in Annexure B of the Memorandum, under Unforeseeable Expenditure, an amount of R85 million is allocated for the incorporation of colleges of education into higher institutions. In the memorandum of the department it is, quite rightly, mentioned that this function shift is in terms of the Constitution. Can the Minister then just explain why it was unforeseeable?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, what we know is that teacher training colleges have been hitherto a provincial function. There have been long negotiations to try and effect the shift from the provincial function to the national function and, as part of the national function, they will be taken as annexes of the tertiary institutions.
For instance, here in the Western Cape, the Cape College in Mowbray will be attached to the University of Cape Town’s education department and Bellville Training College will be attached to the Peninsula Technikon. That is the norm across the country. It has taken long and hard negotiations. By the time we were drafting the Budget for this fiscal year it could not have been foreseen.
At this stage, the big fight is for implementation on 1 January 2001. But I am advised that there is still some difficulty with some provincial education departments and some gaming around these things, but the Minister of Education advices that he fully intends to implement it from 1 January 2001.
Adv A H GAUM: Madam Speaker, another question to the Minister: Can he explain the 100% increase in the expenditure for consultant services; which consultants were employed and for what services? Likewise, can the Minister explain the 155% increase in the expenditure for other professional services, and what professional services were used?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, I cannot explain which consultants were used. I shall try and get the answer. Perhaps in the course of this afternoon - and if we come back to that - I will reply to the hon Gaum’s question.
Vote No 11 - Foreign Affairs:
Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, with regard to Programme 2, I would like to ask the Minister a question in connection with the hostage crisis and the costs incurred to resolve it. Are these the only costs? Are there any other costs or is that the total amount; if not, what is the amount?
The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: It is a very funny question, Madam Speaker. The amount that we are asking for is indicated there. Now the hon member is asking me whether we want more money. [Interjections.] Does the hon member want to give us more money that we have not asked for? What is the purpose of this question? [Interjections.]
Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, I had no bad intentions when I asked the question, and the Minister need not have reacted like that. I honestly only asked the question in order to say we did a good thing and we solved a problem, and here is extra money that was appropriated to solve it. It was just interesting to know more or less what was the amount that we used because it only says here ``Costs incurred to resolve the hostage crisis’’. We must now vote for that and we will do so. But what is the amount, more or less? Is it possible to know that or not?
The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, there is no additional amount other than the amount that is indicated. [Interjections.] That is not the question asked by the hon Mulder. If he wants to know that, he must ask that question. That hon member should not sit there and talk for him. [Interjections.] The speaker has not asked what the money was used for. If he wants to know that, he should ask the question. I will answer it, and I am quite happy to do so - that is why I am here. But, he must ask it. It cannot be asked on his behalf by Sheila Camerer.
Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, perhaps I can assist the Minister to understand what is being asked. Programme 2 states that an additional amount of R39 million is being asked for. These amounts have been asked for different items. One of these items is: Costs incurred to resolve the hostage crisis. The question is: What exactly is the amount for this specific item? That is a basic question. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, the amount is R1,513. [Applause.]
Vote No 13 - Health:
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health the following questions. In Programme 2, under the items, Professional and Special Services and Transfer Payments, and in Programme 3, under the items Inventory and Professional and Special Services, there is a total amount of about R358 million which is reportedly donor funds that have been rolled over. One of the functions under Programme 3: Inventories, is to purchase condoms. My first question is as follows: In view of the fact that there is a national shortage of condoms, why do we have a roll-over of funds, and why are donor funds, which have been allocated for specific use, rolled over to that amount?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, we had a combined budget for these programmes in 1999-2000, and the total came to R106 million, of which R57 million was for HIV/Aids and STDs, and R49 million for Gaap. The R8,4 million rolled over in 1999 was for buying condoms and the funding of the public awareness campaigns. An amount of R14 million was a roll-over for the Government Aids programme and public awareness campaigns, and for pilot home-based care and to pay for the provincial co-ordinators who had been appointed.
Regarding Programme 2 and the donor funds that are being rolled over, one has only to look at the decentralisation of hospital management that is in progress. This cannot be completed overnight, but we are progressing very well in that regard. Health facilities rehabilitation is the same. The last funding that we are asking for this year is for the national school of public health - Medunsa. We are hoping that they will be able to raise their own funds next year.
With regard to the roll-over in Programme 3, there is indeed a roll-over with regard to HIV/Aids, and I expected the member to ask a question regarding that. Of course, we have placed an order for condoms, which means that that money is already committed in a way. The hon member is perfectly correct. Indeed, we do need additional money, in spite of what we have asked for, because we really are running very short of condoms.
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, arising out of the Minister’s response, could she tell us why there is a roll-over of R14 million in respect of HIV/Aids programmes?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, the public awareness campaign continues. We are very cautious about not wasting money. The programme is there, it is continuing, and I did mention that the R14 million roll-over is indeed for the Government Aids awareness programme, which is a continuing programme.
Mr S NAIDOO: Madam Chair, with reference to Programme 2 on page 5, could the hon the Minister explain the reason for the underspending of R328 million in the financial year 1999-2000 on important programmes, such as the rehabilitation of the Umtata hospital, the Durban academic hospital, specialised health services and poverty relief?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, regarding the two hospitals the member referred to, I thought I had responded to the question on hospital reconstruction and rehabilitation. That is under health facilities rehabilitation. With regard to the Umtata hospital, in fact what has happened is that we have given them 50% and they are going to meet the other 50% of the amount required for the hospital. As the member knows, these programmes really take a long time. One cannot build a hospital overnight and be done with it. Vote No 14 - Home Affairs:
Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, an adjustment of R380 million, which is a net increase of 70%, is requested for the Independent Electoral Commission. Taking into consideration the fact that the conducting of municipal government elections is determined constitutionally and the year of elections known well in advance, could the Minister please tell us how this extra R380 million can fall under unforeseen expenses?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, could the hon member please repeat the question?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, could you please repeat the question?
Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, an adjustment of R380 million, which represents a net increase of 70%, is requested for the Independent Electoral Commission under Programme 4. When one takes into consideration the fact that the conducting of municipal government elections is determined constitutionally and the year of elections known well in advance, how is it possible that this extra money is under unforeseen expenses?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, I would like to answer with a question: Why was the money not anticipated?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, I did not hear that.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, I said: Why was the money not anticipated? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why was the money not anticipated? [Laughter.] Hon Minister, could you just repeat your answer or your question? I did not hear it.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, I said: Why was the amount not anticipated?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why was the money not anticipated? [Laughter.] Hon member, are you raising a further question?
Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, I would like to know why the R380 million is unforeseen?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You wish to know why the R380 million was unforeseen?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, quite clearly it is a matter of common sense. It is just a matter of common sense. Putting together things for an election is not something that one can know beforehand. It is sheer common sense. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mr T ABRAHAMS: Madam Speaker, with the limited total amount of time that we in the UDM have available for putting questions, I take it that the time consumed by repeating the question twice will not come off our total. Am I correct in that? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We do not deduct time if a question has to be repeated. We do not take that time into consideration.
Vote No 18 - Justice and Constitutional Development:
Dr J T DELPORT: Madam Speaker, I suppose the question will go to the Deputy Minister, as I do not see the Minister here. [Interjections.]
We refer to the item budgeting an amount of R4 million for the conference on racism. I want to know what was unforeseeable about the conference - it had been announced by the President - and why it was unavoidable. Or was it simply a question of bad planning?
While the Deputy Minister is pondering her answer, let me point out that
the hon the Minister of Finance indicated that unforeseeable'' and
unavoidable’’ must be qualified by recommended by ... Cabinet''. I want
to make it quite clear to the hon the Minister that one can in no way
interpretunforeseeable’’ or ``unavoidable’’ …
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, we are dealing with Vote No 18 on Justice and Constitutional Development.
Dr J T DELPORT: Madam Speaker, I am just clarifying …
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you raised a question with the Deputy Minister and I will allow her now to respond. Do not, in the same breath, address a question to the Minister of Finance. [Interjections.] Proceed, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, quite frankly I think that the Minister of Finance answered very adequately earlier. So it is the same question repeated. It is a waste of time. The fact is that when an expense comes in midcycle in a budget, that cannot be foreseen, and this came in midcycle. [Interjections.]
Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, also under Justice, in view of the fact that it was well known in Government circles and in Parliament for the past four years that the Promotion of Access to Information Act and the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act had to be passed by no later than 4 February this year, why is it that the admittedly very modest sum of R1 million is included in this adjustments account for the purpose of implementing these laws, presumably as unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure?
Arising out of that, there are one or two other points that I need to put to the Deputy Minister. Does she really believe that this amount passes the test in section 30 of the Public Finance Management Act? I would also like to know what it is to be spent on, since these Acts remain unimplemented as do many other Acts passed by the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and by this Parliament. Nine months after we passed them, they remain unimplemented.
If I may ask, why is this amount so low when we were briefed by her department that it would cost some R50 million to implement the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act once it was passed. I would also like to know if the implementation …
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Camerer, please just ask questions. Do not go on and on with a long speech.
Mrs S M CAMERER: This is my final point. Has the full implementation of that been budgeted for at all?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, as the hon member is aware herself, the form of the legislation changed quite dramatically during the time that it sat in Parliament, and there was no way of estimating that.
The money that has been requested by the Human Rights Commission came via us, but it is money that they anticipated they would be using and needing in the current financial year. [Applause.]
Dr J T DELPORT: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon the Deputy Minister whether she will agree with me that the only conclusion we can come to … [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!
Dr J T DELPORT: … is that all expenditure by this Government is unforeseen because of its incompetence to plan ahead. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Do you want to say anything, Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I cannot be expected to answer such a silly question. [Interjections.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!
Mr M A MZIZI: My question relates to whether the maintenance investigators have been taken into account with regard to allocations, because there seems to be a grey area there. We have had problems with the maintenance investigators. If there is any allocation, how much is it?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, as the member is aware, that section of the legislation has not been implemented because we also do not know the form and place. We are implementing three pilot projects within months. We will get a sense of how much these investigators will cost - whether we outsource them or not - and then we will be able to budget for them in the next cycle.
Vote No 19 - Labour:
Mr R J HEINE: Madam Speaker, I do not know to whom I must put the question, as I do not see the Minister in the House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Put the question, hon member. Mr R J HEINE: An amount of R276 million was allowed for personnel expenditure. But then there is another item, professional and special services, which has been allocated an amount of R41,380 million. Now there is a request for another R27 million for professional special services. I would like to know what this is for.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! We did not get any indication as to who was going to handle the questions on Labour.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, may I come back to that question later?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You want to come back to this question later? OK, could we then skip this question for now and come back to it in a few minutes, if there is no objection to that?
Vote No 20 - Land Affairs:
Adv S P HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker, in terms of the new current policy on land redistribution and the agriculture development programme, how many of the intended beneficiaries have applied for the benefits and how much money has been released in this regard?
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, even though in my view that question does not arise in terms of the Adjustments Estimate, one would say that so far no applications have been received with regard to that programme. As we all know, that is part of the consultative process with the various stakeholders on how that programme will be implemented. What has been agreed is the policy position and the direction in which we have to move.
However, within the land redistribution programme, as well as with the agricultural support services, we will be able to get money for acquisition as well as money for support. Also, some money will come from the Land Bank, as the hon member would know.
Vote No 21 - Minerals and Energy:
Mr I O DAVIDSON: Madam Speaker, I will let the Minister settle down. In respect of the R20 million increase in the funds allocated, as far as transfer payments are concerned, for the electricity distribution industry restructuring project, that represents a 70% increase. I would like to know from the Minister why that amount of money was not anticipated right at the outset.
Secondly, in terms of the blueprint that is emerging there seems to be an indication that electricity tariffs are going to go up by 30% to 40%. I wonder if the Minister would comment. Finally, in terms of the allocation before us there is no consideration given to fuel rebates in respect of the agricultural industry.
The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Madam Speaker, starting with the last question, petrol and diesel rebates would not come from our budget as far as the hon Minister of Finance is concerned. I think he should discuss it with the Minister of Finance. [Laughter.] Regarding the money for the restructuring of electricity distribution, that amount was unforeseen because we had hoped that that would be an expense that we could share with Eskom, but we were actually unable to work it out like that, so we were forced to go back to the fiscus and request that money.
As to whether the tariffs would increase as a result of restructuring, the tariffs in electricity would increase in any case in the course of time, just like everything else increases. One of the reasons, as we know, we are restructuring distribution is because it has been a long time since there has been any investment, and there has been fragmentation. So part of the increase over a period of 10 years has to do with the fact that there is a lot of technology and restructuring expenses that we would need to pick up. If we did not restructure, that increase would over a period of 10 years actually be more than 70%. So this is a lesser evil, and if we do not do that, we are going to make the sector unsustainable. [Applause.]
Vote No 22 - Provincial and Local Government:
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, the money that was voted for the 2000- 2001 financial year was R3,42 billion. I have noticed on the latest information that we have received that there is a discrepancy because it only shows R3,633 billion. I would like to know where the R75 million has been allocated, because I do not see it reflected anywhere. Could the Minister please explain that to me.
The MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, one of the items for which that specific amount was allocated is the programme for local economic development.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! We now go back to Vote No 19 - Labour, with the assumption that the Minister of Finance is ready. Are there any questions? Yes, I think there was a question.
Vote No 19 - Labour:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, in response to the question from the hon Heine, it is essentially a virement between personal and professional services. Unfilled posts, the need to bring in people, a virement is required in terms of section 43 of the Public Finance Management Act and the 8% rule - that is all that this is about.
Vote No 26 - Public Works:
Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, the Minister is seeking to spend an additional 16,35% over and above the budget allocation. This is more than twice the inflationary figure. What we would like to know concerns the item Professional and Special Services. What percentage of this amount is to be expended on consultancies and on tangible projects?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Madam Speaker, although I cannot speak of specific tangible professional services, in order to get a tangible project going, one has to consult to make sure that the planning for the project is done.
Vote No 28 - South African Police Service:
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, I would like to put it to the Minister that in light of the latest statistics on farm murders, in practice it means that as we sit here, 400 of us, seven of the members here will be murdered inside this House where they work in five years’ time. That is a fact and it is a statistical reality. Seven out of 400 people will be murdered in five years’ time. I want to ask the Minister whether he intends, with the newly adopted budget, to intensify the battle to combat rural crime and murders. I would like to know whether there is any allocation for that.
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, the department and the Government is very worried about the attacks on farms in the country. We have incorporated farms, not just for the purposes of this budget, but in terms of our crime-combating strategy. Farm areas fall within our crime- combating zones. I am going to meet farmers next week, as has been arranged, to intensify exactly that strategy. It is not necessarily a matter for consideration today in terms of this estimate, but it is part and parcel of my entire budget to see to it that the perpetrators of these attacks on farms are apprehended and prosecuted.
Vote No 29 - Sport and Recreation South Africa
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, of the R105 million that was actually applied for to the Minister of Finance, only R15 million was recommended. I am a bit concerned because of the recommendations. It was said that no sport facilities would be built and that that falls under local government. I want to say to the Minister that my concern here is that it should not actually fall under local government, because local government is bankrupt. [Interjections.] There is no money. As we have seen on our provincial trips, those sports fields are not maintained, etc. I know that they applied for about R50 to R70 million for new facilities but they were turned down.
The other thing is with reference to school sport. That has also been transferred from the Department of Education to the Department of Sport and Recreation. I feel that it should also fall within the ambit of education. My question to the Minister is, and I hope he can answer me because it is a concern: Why are they moving the function from one department to another?
An application for more money for the SA Sports Commission was also made. Fortunately, it has been turned down. I am actually thankful that they did turn it down, because I was led to believe that about R22 million and another R2,5 million was given to the commission and they have not really spent that money. Rumour has it that they are not performing. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, I would like the Minister to tell us why they are not performing, and the reasons for them not performing.
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Madam Speaker, I think the first two concerns raised by the member are concerns that we also have as the Sports department. We are trying to talk to the the Department of Education to look into the issue of school sport. We will be meeting with them on that. On the last issue, of the Sports Commission and rumours about it, I cannot give the hon member an answer on rumours. But the fact is that they are working very well and the SA Sports Commission is using all its resources quite well. With regard to the rumours we can talk about them some other time.
The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it proper to ``rumourmonger’’ in this august House? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is definitely not.
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, I just want to ask the Minister of Sport and Recreation whether he is able to tell us what the latest cricket score is today? [Laughter.]
Vote No 31 - Statistics SA:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Mr Green, I have actually just been informed that the time of the ACDP is up, unfortunately.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, the question is that we voted R96 million on the population census. We are now asking for another R40 million. Why is it such a large amount and why is the hon Minister asking for it at such a late stage?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, it is an internal virement. It is essentially a virement and supported by the increases in personnel expenditure. As members know, Statistics SA is a personnel-intensive department. So the impact of the salary increase adjustments on professionals is actually reflected in that amount.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry: Mr N S BRUCE: Madam Speaker, it is not fair to try to trip up Ministers over small disbursements, when they are quite capable of tripping themselves up over the poor service that they provide. No additional increase in the expenditure should be countenanced in a department that is neglecting its core function of ensuring equitable competition and honest trade.
The DTI appears to have shut itself off from business. Clearly, its managerial capabilities are sparse indeed. This is really wing nut management. If the Minister had been at last week’s SACOB conference in Bellville, he would have faced a barrage of complaints about his department.
In these circumstances, the only sanction that the House has and the only way it can express its dismay at this gross departmental ineptitude is not to vote in favour of these increased funds.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Speaker, I presume that that is not a question. It is just one of the usual rambles from the usual quarters. [Interjections.] I think if the hon member would seriously apply his mind - if there is any there … [Interjections] Mr J H MOMBERG: He has no mind.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: … he would see that, in fact, considerable improvements have been made in this budget. We are not requesting a large amount of additional funds, and I am quite happy to meet the hon Bruce early in the morning and we can have a sensible discussion.
Vote No 35 - Social Development:
Prof L M MBADI: Madam Speaker, could I ask the hon the Minister to give an explanation as to why the R129 million was not utilised for poverty relief? What were the difficulties?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Surely, Madam Speaker, we have deliberated over this issue many, many times. I think this is the fourth time I have answered the same question, and His Excellency over there was one of those people that answered the question. We did explain to this House that there were problems with the capacity within the department in general and, secondly, that at the present moment we are doing our best to ensure that that poverty relief is delivered to the people as fast as possible. We are working very closely with the IDT to ensure that. In so far as the money is concerned this year, we have agreed with the provinces that the money should be devolved directly to each and every province as a conditional grant so that each and every province is able to answer for that money.
As far as I am concerned - and I think this applies to all my colleagues in the provinces - the thing is on track as much as possible. I think when the hon member gets to Qumbu he will tell them that I was there and I promised them money.
Vote No 36 - National Treasury:
Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon the Minister of Finance. I see that for Sars the implementation of new tax proposals amounts to R28,6 million. I would like to know how much of that amount of money was allocated for the new capital gains tax.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, one cannot break down allocations to particular tax laws in that way. We have tax administration and tax policy design within Sars, and this allocation is just due to the need to take on additional staff in order to design the legislation between now and 31 March next year. It is quite impossible to break down tax policy into that kind of disaggregated detail.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! May I just warn the hon Koornhof that the UDM has 24 seconds left. [Interjections.] Order!
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, the increase in the adjustments over the original estimate is 32%. Why this large increase and what is the R2,6 million for. [Interjections.] Can I repeat that?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, please repeat it.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, the increase of the adjustments over the original estimate amounts to 32%. My question is: What is the reason for this large increase, and what is the R2,6 million, or billion, to be spent on?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson the National Treasury is responsible for fiscal transfers to the provinces. In the course of this adjustment, there were two sums to provinces. The one sum included the transfers to assist in the post-flood reconstruction and the other was to assist provinces to deal with issues such as the increased uptake in child support grants and so on. Those amounts are reflected and that clearly works through into the numbers.
Mr K M ANDREW: Chair, I would like to ask the hon the Minister, in respect of the R28,6 million for assisting in writing the tax laws, whether what has happened is that, in writing the residence-based taxation law in the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill and preparing for the capital gains tax legislation, he has found that it has turned out to be more complicated and difficult than originally anticipated. If not, why does he need the amount?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I cannot be held responsible for Ken Andrew’s loss of short-term memory. When this matter was discussed in the Portfolio Committee on Finance, all of this detail was placed there. Sars was there and these issues were discussed. So there is not a failure to anticipate. It is trying to work through these issues.
An HON MEMBER: You were not there.
The MINISTER: I was there. Of course I was there. We discussed these issues
in February and Sars was there and these questions were put on the impact
of capital gains tax. The terms backstop'' andwicketkeeper’’ were used
during those discussions. I cannot be held responsible for the fact that
the hon Andrew cannot remember these things. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry, but the DP’s time is up. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, I want to protest on his behalf. Loss of short-term memory is an early sign of senility! [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is the advantage of having a doctor in the House. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, I undertook to try and get a reply to Adv Gaum’s question on education. [Interjections.] Prof Asmal’s father- in-law is being buried right now, and the senior staff are at the funeral. For that reason, I have not been able to secure it. I ask that the hon Adv Gaum accept that. I am sure that Prof Asmal will be able to supply the details to the House, probably by tomorrow.
Vote No 1 - Presidency - put and agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Agriculture - put and agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Arts, Culture, Science and Technology - put and agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Communications - put and agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Correctional Services - put and agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
Vote No 7 - Defence - put and agreed to.
Vote No 8 - Education - put and agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and Freedom Front dissenting).
Vote No 9 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put and agreed to.
Vote No 10 - Finance - put and agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
Vote No 11 - Foreign Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 12 - Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to.
Vote No 13 - Health - put and agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party, United Democratic Movement and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).
Vote No 14 - Home Affairs - put and agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and United Democratic Movement dissenting).
Vote No 15 - Housing - put and agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
Vote No 17 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put and agreed to. Vote No 18 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put and agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).
Vote No 19 - Labour - put and agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
Vote No 20 - Land Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Minerals and Energy - put and agreed to.
Vote No 22 - Provincial and Local Government - put and agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Public Enterprises - put and agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.
Vote No 25 - Public Service Commission - put and agreed to.
Vote No 26 - Public Works - put and agreed to.
Vote No 27 - SA Management Development Institute - put and agreed to.
Vote No 28 - SA Police Service - put and agreed to.
Vote No 29 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put and agreed to.
Vote No 30 - State Expenditure - put and agreed to.
Vote No 31 - Statistics South Africa - put and agreed to.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put and agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
Vote No 33 -Transport - put and agreed to.
Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put and agreed to.
Vote No 35 - Social Development - put and agreed to.
Vote No 36 - National Treasury - put and agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting). Schedule agreed to (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
SECOND ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Order disposed of without debate.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).
REDETERMINATION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF CROSS-BOUNDARY MUNICIPALITIES BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Order disposed of without debate.
Bill read a second time.
The House adjourned at 18:03. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
following Bills:
(a) Finance Bill [B 40 - 2000] - Act No 35 of 2000 (assented
to and signed by President on 27 October 2000);
(b) Meat Safety Bill [B 29D - 2000] - Act No 40 of 2000
(assented to and signed by President on 27 October 2000); and
(c) Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Bill [B 57B - 2000] - Act
No 41 of 2000 (assented to and signed by President on 27
October 2000).
- The Speaker and the Chairperson: The following paper was tabled on 31 October 2000 and is now referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on Finance:
Explanatory Memorandum on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill, 2000 [WP 2-
2000].
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
(1) In response to a resolution adopted by the House on 26 May 2000
recommending that a code of conduct for Local Government Employees
be put in place by January 2001, the Minister for Provincial and
Local Government has included as Schedule 1 to the Local
Government: Municipal Systems Bill, 2000, a code of conduct for
municipal officials.
(2) The following papers were tabled on 30 October 2000 and are now
referred to the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs, the
Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Portfolio Committee on
Justice and Constitutional Development for consideration and
report;
(a) the committees to confer; and
(b) the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs to submit an
interim report by not later than 16 February 2001 and a final
report by 15 March 2001:
(i) The Constitutive Act of the African Union, tabled in terms
of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(ii) Explanatory Memorandum on the Constitutive Act of the
African Union.
- The Speaker:
(1) Mr M U Kalako has been elected co-chairperson of the Mediation
Committee with effect from 1 November 2000.
(2) The following changes have been made to the membership of
Committees, viz:
Agriculture and Land Affairs:
Appointed: Van der Merwe, A S; Le Roux, J W (Alt); Zita, L (Alt).
Discharged: Schoeman, E A.
Home Affairs:
Appointed: Mathebe, P H (Alt).
Discharged: Zita, L.
Joint Standing Committee on Defence:
Discharged: Mathebe, P H.
Labour:
Appointed: Maphalala, M A (Alt).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Trade and Industry:
Report and Financial Statements of the Competition Tribunal for 1999-
2000, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 1999-2000.
- The Minister of Health:
Memorandum of Understanding between the Department of Health of the
Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Ministry of Health
of the People's Republic of China on Public Health and Medical
Sciences, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
National Assembly:
Bills:
- The Minister of Health:
(1) Tweede Wysigingswetsontwerp op Chiropraktisyns, Homeopate en
Verwante Gesondheidsdiensberoepe [W 66 - 2000].
The Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service
Professions Second Amendment Bill [B 66 - 2000] (National Council
of Provinces - sec 76) was introduced by the Minister of Health on
22 September 2000 and referred to the Select Committee on Social
Services.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 70 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered and examined the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 70 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a money bill, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Health on the Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Second Amendment Bill [B 66B - 2000] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Health, having considered the subject of the Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Second Amendment Bill [B 66B - 2000] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs on the African Renaissance and International Co-operation Fund Bill [B 65B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs, having considered the African Renaissance and International Co-operation Fund Bill [B 65B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 927), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 65C - 2000].
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy on the Abolition of Lebowa Mineral Trust Bill [B 49 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy, having considered the
subject of the Lebowa Mineral Trust Bill [B 49 - 2000] (National
Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging
Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 49A
- 2000].
The Committee further reports as follows:
1. During its deliberations on the Bill, the Committee received
extensive briefings from the Department of Minerals and Energy
(the Department) detailing the reasons for the abolition of the
Lebowa Mineral Trust (LMT). When the Bill was still in draft form,
the Committee also received a request from the Beneficiaries Forum
of the LMT to brief the Committee on its concerns with the Bill.
The Committee afforded the Forum an opportunity to address it in
Cape Town on 8 March 2000. Subsequent to this meeting, the
Committee requested that the Department continue with its
consultations with the affected communities to ensure that a lack
of information regarding the content of the Bill would not create
confusion or misunderstanding. To this end, the Department also
published the draft Bill on 17 March 2000 and invited comments
thereon.
2. On 17 August, the Bill was introduced in the National Assembly
and referred to the Committee. The Committee, together with the
Select Committee on Economic Affairs of the National Council of
Provinces, held public hearings on the Bill in the Northern
Province on 21 September. These public hearings were advertised
nationally and locally, in the Northern Review Newspaper and on
Radio Thobela. In addition, an invitation was also extended to the
provincial governments, as well as to the relevant provincial
committees, of the Northern Province and Mpumalanga to attend the
public hearings and to give their views on the Bill, should they
deem it necessary. This was done as most of the former Lebowa
falls within these two Provinces, and there are also a few areas
which now form part of the North-West Province.
3. The following persons made oral presentations during the public
hearings:
* Mr Dennis Nkosi, on behalf of the Mpumalanga Provincial
Government;
* Mr M G Ratlabala, on behalf of the LMT Board;
* Mr I W Modisha, on behalf of the staff of the LMT;
* Kgoshi M Lehwelere, on behalf of the LMT Beneficiaries Forum;
* Kgsohigadi M R Mothapo;
* Ms M M Ramoraswi, on behalf of Sefagafaga Mining Investments;
* Adv T P Moloto, on behalf of the Mineral Rights Association of
Indigenous People of South Africa;
* Mr M H Malaza, on behalf of the Dilokong Land and Minerals
Forum;
* Mr V Majolopa, on behalf of the Leolo Mining Corporation;
* Mr P G Betz;
* Adv T P Moloto, on behalf of the Bopedi Kingdom;
* Kgoshi T Setlamorago, on behalf of CONTRALESA;
* Mr T Boya, on behalf of NAFCOC (Northern Province);
* Mr M Mphalele, on behalf of Northern Resource Management and
Maaparanke Holdings.
4. The Committee also received the following written submissions:
* Mr C Corser;
* Ms A Makhubedu;
* Mphalele Traditional Authority.
5. A key area of concern for the Committee during its deliberations
was that the LMT is currently duplicating functions falling within
the ambit of the Department. Many of the issues raised with the
Committee during the public hearings were rooted in concerns of
benefitting groups and individuals that they would lose the
benefits accruing from the LMT. The Committee understands that the
projects currently funded by the LMT Board will be taken over by
the Department.
6. The ANC and the IFP agreed that the Bill constitutes an
administrative adjustment intended to bring the administration of
mineral rights in line with the Constitution, which declares
mining and mineral matters an area of national competency.
The Committee is of the opinion that a careful investigation into
the matter of mineral rights ownership in the region should be
undertaken. To this end, it should be noted that the Committee
amended the Bill to the effect that the regulations to be
prescribed by the Minister in respect of the nature of proof
required when claiming ownership of mineral rights will only be
made after consultation with the Committee. Furthermore, based on
discussions with the Ministry of Minerals and Energy during
deliberations on the Bill, the Committee was assured that this
proof will not be confined to the presentation of title deeds. The
various lists given to the Committee during its deliberations will
also have to be consolidated before being used as a basis to
verify the authenticity of claims.
7. It was also noted that the genuine concerns among the
communities of the region about job creation, sustainable
development, community input into the development process, poverty
alleviation and the future of joint venture agreements, which were
raised with the Committee during the public hearings, must be
viewed in a serious light when decisions around the Bill are
taken.
8. The DP and the New NP were opposed to the Bill. The basis of
their opposition was one of principle. The following points were
noted:
(1) Section 14 of the Lebowa Mineral Trust Act states: "The
Trust shall, in respect of mineral rights and for the purpose
of any legislation governing mineral rights and the
exploitation of mineral resources be in the same position as a
private holder of mineral rights". The Bill before Parliament
seeks to take those rights currently vested in the LMT and
vest them in the State. No compensation is offered. This was
viewed as an infringement of the property rights of private
mineral rights holders and therefore renders the Bill subject
to a constitutional challenge, as the objective of the Bill is
contrary to the property rights provision of the Constitution.
(2) Prior to the formation of the self-governing state of
Lebowa, four categories of land owners existed in the area,
namely land owned by -
(a) the Government of the Republic of South Africa;
(b) the South African Development Trust (SADT);
(c) the provincial administration; and
(d) private individuals.
The Department advised the Committee that land held in these four
categories was transferred to the former Lebowa and the mineral
rights attached were under the jurisdiction of the LMT. These
rights were to be administered for the material benefit and moral
welfare of the people of Lebowa.
Two points in this regard need to be made:
(i) There is a factual dispute as to whether there are private
holders of land rights, and therefore of mineral rights in
the first three categories mentioned above. Documentation
in this regard was supplied to the Committee, citing title
deed numbers evidencing private ownership of land by
individuals and tribes.
(ii) Land restitution claims in the three categories mentioned
are still outstanding. These land claims could well have
mineral rights attached thereto. Should any of the above
land have mineral rights attached thereto, the vesting of
such rights in the State would infringe the property rights
provisions of the Constitution.
9. The DP and the New NP had two further points of opposition
related to process:
(1) Clause 3(1)(c) of the Bill empowers the Minister, on
application by any person who claims any rights to minerals,
to grant such rights to the person on production of
appropriate proof. During the course of its consultation on
the Bill, the DP and the New NP expressed concern at the way
in which the Department had investigated claims of ownership.
It could not be established whether the land cited in the
title deeds had mineral rights attached. The DP and the New NP
felt that an impartial tribunal should be established to
facilitate the process and adjudicate ownership.
(2) Lastly, the DP and the New NP were of the opinion that the
Bill was premature. It was felt that this Bill should have
been presented to Parliament after the Minerals Development
Bill, which is due to come before Parliament next year. This
latter Bill will translate the White Paper policy into law.
More specifically, that Bill will deal with the vesting of
mineral rights in the State.
The DP and the New NP accepted the fact that the LMT was an
anachronism, and therefore believed that it should be
transformed into a mineral development agency. This agency
would be in a position to develop minerals in the Northern
Province for and on behalf of its inhabitants, either
collectively or individually, if rights are established.
10. The UDM rejected the abolition of the LMT. It adopted this
stance mainly for the following reasons:
(1) The Minister of Minerals and Energy is the champion of
this course of action, whilst she holds office as a delegated
trustee of the LMT. Her essential duty in this capacity is to
protect and further the rights of the inhabitants of the
former Lebowa, not to deprive them of their rights and assets.
(2) The Bill effectively abolishes the LMT and thus deprives
the inhabitants of the former Lebowa of the benefits accruing
from the trust.
(3) The Bill has the effect of arbitrary confiscation of
property and/or rights without compensation by the State.
The UDM supported the inhabitants of the former Lebowa and their
traditional authorities in seeking for a redress in a high court
and the Constitutional court. The UDM did, however, support the
restructuring of the LMT in order to make it compatible with the
present Constitutional arrangements in the country.
11. The ACDP is, in principle, against State ownership of property,
and on these grounds opposed the Bill. In addition, it felt that
it was evident from the submissions made during the public
hearings that the people in the area and those benefitting from
the LMT are concerned that the Northern Province, despite its
enormous mineral wealth, is one of the poorest provinces in South
Africa and that it will be further deprived of what little hope it
has of development and wealth creation. The ACDP did not see the
Bill as giving any assurances to the people of the area that they
would not be further disadvantaged. The ACDP supports
restructuring and reformation of the LMT. The ACDP proposed that a
new Bill, guided by the recommendations in the detailed
submissions, be drafted and presented to the Committee. A primary
objective of the new Bill must be to ensure that those who should
rightly benefit, in fact do benefit.
12. The Committee will support the provincial Finance MECs in
ensuring that further economic development through mining occurs
in the region. The Northern Province Development Corporation,
National steering committee programmes on mineral development and
the integrated rural development programme should receive the
necessary resources to continue to build the local economy.
Whereas the majority of the members of the Committee are satisfied that
it has ensured the rights of communities and individuals to claim those
mineral rights to which they are legitimately entitled, it will
continue to monitor the status of joint venture agreements in the
former Lebowa and progress with regard to integrated rural development.
In this regard, the Committee recommends that the Department of
Minerals and Energy be requested to keep it informed on these matters.
The Committee wishes to express its appreciation to all those
stakeholders who made submissions to and interacted with the Committee
during its deliberations on the Bill.
Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Rome Statute, dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Rome Statute of the International Court of Justice, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Statute.
Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the RSA/USA Extradition Treaty, dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Extradition Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United States of America, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Treaty.
Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the RSA/USA Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty, dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United States of America on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Treaty.
Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the RSA/Australia Extradition Treaty, dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Treaty on Extradition between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Australia, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Treaty. Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Public Protector Office Conditions of Service, dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the Documents, in terms of section 3(11)(a) of the Public Protector Act, 1994, on remuneration, allowances and other conditions of employment determined by the Public Protector for staff in his office, referred to it, recommends that the House approve the determination by the Public Protector as set out in the said document.
Report to be considered.
- Report of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs on Illegal Farm Evictions, dated 1 November 2000:
The Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs, having
considered the extent and nature of illegal farm evictions in KwaZulu-
Natal, the Free State, Mpumalanga and North-West, reports as follows:
1. Introduction
During June 2000 the Committee visited KwaZulu-Natal, the Free
State, Mpumalanga and North-West. The primary objective was to
investigate reported incidents of unfair evictions in these four
provinces. The four delegations were led by Mr N Masithela, Adv S
P Holomisa, Mrs B M Ntuli and Mr D Hanekom, respectively.
In the Free State the delegation met with the MEC for Agriculture,
the Free State department of land affairs, members of the
provincial select committee on agriculture and land affairs, the
South African Plantation and Allied Workers Union (SAPAWU), Agri-
SA (Free State), the constituency office of the national Member of
Parliament, members of the Transitional Local Council, the SAPS,
farmers, farm-workers, magistrates and lawyers.
In Mpumalanga the delegation met with farmers, farm-workers and
the SAPS.
In KwaZulu-Natal the delegation met with the MEC for Agriculture
and Land Affairs, members of the provincial portfolio committee on
agriculture, the regional office of the department of land
affairs, AFRA, SAPAWU, the Esta monitoring project, farm-workers,
farmers, the SAPS and attorneys.
In the North-West the delegation met with officials of the
regional department of land affairs, the MEC for Agriculture, the
Mayor of Coligny, farm-workers, NAFU, Agri-SA (North West), the
Transvaal Agricultural Union, farmers, farm communities, the SAPS,
the Department of Justice, the Law Clinic, the Transvaal Rural
Action Committee (TRAC) and the Association for Community and
Rural Advancement (ANCRA).
The multiparty delegations to the provinces would use the visits
to -
(1) determine the extent and nature of the problem (i.e. on
what scale evictions are occurring and under what
circumstances);
(2) investigate the impact of the evictions;
(3) establish whether legal processes are being followed
properly;
(4) establish whether the magistrates' courts are applying the
laws properly;
(5) determine whether there are loopholes in the relevant laws
which leave people vulnerable; and
(6) investigate any other matters related to the reported
evictions which have occurred in some parts of our country.
This is a consolidated Report from the delegations, and it
highlights the commonalities in each province with regard to
unfair evictions, whilst also including recommendations. For
details of specific cases, kindly refer to individual delegations'
reports.
2. Extent and nature of problem
It is nearly impossible to attach a figure to the total number of
evictions taking place throughout these provinces. This is due to
the fact that only some provinces do data capturing of eviction
cases. The monitoring of evictions is also hampered by human
resource shortages, as well as the failure by evictees to report
their cases to the police because of the perception that the
police is favouring the farmers in eviction cases.
A number of reported eviction cases in the four provinces were to
an extent labour-related. Labour disputes between farm-workers and
farm-owners were often used by the latter as a mechanism to evict
workers. A large majority of farm-workers are not unionised
because farm-owners often refuse union representatives access to
their workers.
3. Shortcomings/loopholes in relevant laws
Many of the problems that came to the fore during the provincial
visits were implementation issues rather than loopholes in the
law. Basic necessities, like access to drinking water, are often
denied to farm-workers, as a form of punishment. This is clearly
in contravention of the Extension of Security of Tenure Act, 1997
(ESTA). Section 1(1)(vi) of ESTA defines eviction as depriving a
person against his or her will of his or her right to "residence
on land or the use of land or access to water which is linked to a
right of residence".
ESTA gives special rights to occupiers who are 60 years or older
and who have lived on the land for longer than 10 years. The same
rights are given to disabled people who were employed by the owner
and who lived on the land for 10 years or longer (section 8(4)(a)
and (b)). Despite the special rights for long-term occupiers, many
cases reported concerned persons older than 60 years and who had
lived on a specific farm for longer than 10 years.
The eviction cases which were reported to the delegations, whether
contested or not, showed that the biggest flaw in respect of ESTA
is that it merely regulates tenure rights, without actually
providing security of tenure.
Investigations have also revealed that ESTA does not provide
clarity on the rights of farm-workers and occupiers to bury their
dead on the farms on which they live. Section 6(4) of ESTA simply
states:
"Any person shall have the right to visit and maintain his or
her family graves on land which belongs to another person,
subject to any reasonable condition imposed by the owner or
person in charge of such land in order to safeguard life and
property or to prevent undue disruption of work on the land."
In spite of the above provision, certain farmers were reported to
have barred persons, who had been evicted from their farms, from
visiting or maintaining their family graves. In some cases graves
were demolished by owners, who ploughed them over.
4. Impact of evictions
Communication and trust between the police, prosecutors and
magistrates, on the one hand, and farm-worker communities, on the
other, have reached breaking point in some areas - as a result of
a perception of those communities that the said State officials
are siding with the farm-owners instead of implementing the law in
an impartial manner.
Squatter camps, which are an urban phenomenon in and around rural
towns, are mushrooming due to the influx of evictees from
neighbouring farms. This places a burden on state resources such
as housing, water, health services, electricity, education, common
land, etc. The evictions, legal and illegal, result in the
disruption of children's schooling, a breakdown in the social
fabric of the effected communities and deterioration in race
relations.
5. Legal processes and magistrates' courts
One of the impediments to the successful implementation of land
laws such as ESTA and the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act, 1996,
is the fact that most police officers are not familiar with them.
This is evident from statements made by the SAPS personnel in the
four provinces. The situation is further exacerbated by a lack of
understanding on the part of farm-workers and some farm-owners
regarding their respective rights and obligations, as provided for
in ESTA and other related laws. Some farmers were reported to have
displayed a tendency to call on the police to carry out evictions
even when there were no court orders requiring them to do so.
The position of the occupiers is worsened by the fact that, due to
poverty and illiteracy, they are unable to gain access to legal
assistance and the courts so as to either institute legal action
or defend themselves.
6. General remarks
Various forums, consisting of all major stakeholders, including
the police, farm-workers, labour unions, agricultural unions and
the Department of Land Affairs, have been established in the
respective provinces to deal with eviction problems. These have
proved successful in many instances.
Evictions tend to take place when there is a change in ownership
of farms. Some evictions are said to be racially motivated because
of pressure applied by white farmers on colleagues who seek to
make their land available to farm-workers.
The delegations were also told of the confiscation of livestock
and household properties during the course of evictions of farm-
workers by land-owners. This happened illegally, and without any
recourse to the law.
7. Recommendations
The Committee wishes to make the following recommendations, for
consideration by the House and appropriate action by the
Executive:
(1) The role of commando's, the police and deputy sheriffs in
respect of farm evictions must be investigated and brought in
line with the law and the Constitution.
(2) The Department of Safety and Security must ensure that the
police conduct thorough investigations of eviction and assault
cases on farms in order to ensure proper and impartial
implementation of the law.
(3) The Directorate of Public Prosecutions must pursue all
cases of farm-worker abuse and victimisation which, though
reported to the police, were not followed by investigations
and criminal trials.
(4) The Department of Labour, and possibly the Department of
Social Development, must continue to carry out regular farm
inspections to ensure that the law is complied with and that
the working and living conditions of farm-workers are being
improved.
(5) Land reform programmes, including restitution and
redistribution, must give priority to the land needs of farm-
workers, labour tenants and occupiers.
(6) More land-owners must be encouraged to make more land
available to the government for distribution to the landless
occupiers.
(7) The government must ensure that the different organs and
agencies of state, particularly those involved in the
investigation, prosecution and trial of eviction cases, are
given on-going special training on land-related laws.
(8) The State must provide adequate resources to ensure that
the laws and policies aimed at the poor and the vulnerable are
speedily and meaningfully implemented, and that legal
assistance is provided for victims of eviction.
(9) The Departments of Agriculture and Land Affairs, of
Justice and Constitutional Development, of Safety and Security
and of Labour and relevant stakeholders must continue to run
information campaigns throughout the country for both farmers
and occupiers, and co-ordinate their efforts to ensure that
illegal and/or unfair evictions do not take place.
(10)The Extension of Security of Tenure Act, the Land Reform
(Labour Tenants) Act and other related laws must be reviewed
and, if necessary, relevant amendments must be effected as a
matter of urgency.
Report to be considered.