TUESDAY, 3 OCTOBER 2000 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:10.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

              ADMISSIBILITY OF QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                              (Ruling)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, before we proceed to the questions on the Question Paper, I would like to table rulings that I wish to make with respect to a number of matters that arise on the Question Paper. I would like to ask hon members to listen to the rulings carefully.

The first ruling is with respect to questions on issues outside the line function of a Ministry. Having carefully considered the Question Paper before the House today, it has come to my attention that a number of Ministries have been asked questions on the production of a language Bill or policy. It is common knowledge that the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology has been mandated by Government to carry out this task. It is also common knowledge that questions are a form of ensuring accountability on the part of a Ministry in respect of its area of responsibilities.

The NCOP Rules, in so far as they relate to what questions can be asked of a Minister, are silent. I therefore wish to invoke the provisions of NCOP Rule 2 to make the following ruling: In terms of parliamentary practice, a question to a Minister must, in principle, relate to a matter for which the Minister is officially responsible. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology is officially responsible for matters of language policy. It is therefore fitting for that Minister to be called to the House to answer questions on that issue. In the event of the Minister, in his reply, citing or referring to other Ministries, then those relevant Ministers may be called to respond to questions in respect of the issues raised.

The following questions, as printed on the Question Paper of 3 October 2000, under the heading: ``Questions transferred for oral reply in accordance with rule 239’’ are therefore ruled to be out of order: question 1(3), question 2(3), question 3(3), question 4(3), question 5(3), and questions 6, 7, 8, 9, 13 and 14 in their entirety.

A number of Ministers to whom these questions have been addressed are present in the House. I will allow those Ministers who have prepared responses to deliver them. Where, however, there are no responses, my ruling is that those questions not be proceeded with, and consequently be removed from the Question Paper.

The Secretary will then assist me by taking the necessary steps to get the NCOP Rules amended accordingly.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, may I address you on this issue?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You certainly may. Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I would just like to know: Most of the questions that you ruled upon now are questions that were put to various Ministers during the months of April and May. Is there a specific reason why the ruling is being done today, and has not been made beforehand, so that we could have had more time to really deal sensibly with it?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, the questions appear on the Question Paper for today. They have not hitherto appeared on the Question Paper for responses.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The questions appear on today’s Question Paper. They have not appeared previously at a sitting of the House at which I could make the ruling. [Interjections.] Not at a sitting.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I do not have the records with me, but questions for written reply do appear on the Question Paper of this House, and these questions were on the Question Paper in April and May already. So they have appeared while we have had sittings in this House.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am making a ruling, Mr Van Niekerk, with respect to questions that appear on the Question Paper of 3 October 2000 as questions for oral reply.

I must perhaps indicate some support for the query raised by Mr Van Niekerk by indicating my concern at the large number of questions that are transmitted for oral reply when they have been tabled for written response. I think we would ask members of the executive to really use the time available for responding to questions for written reply so that they are answered timeously, and are not placed on the Question Paper in the fashion in which we have had them appear on this Question Paper.

With that aspect of your concern I certainly do concur, Mr Van Niekerk. However, the opportunity to rule does arise today. I take that opportunity and make a ruling.

We then come to a second aspect that I would like to rule on. As previously indicated in the ruling I read a few moments ago, questions to Ministers should relate to the public affairs with which they are officially charged. In the same manner that a Parliament cannot bind another, so the next Parliament should not be expected to take responsibility for the previous Parliament. Consequently, Ministers cannot be called to respond to questions referring to issues which emanated within the term of a previous executive office holder.

In this regard, the following questions, in so far as they relate to issues emanating prior to June 1999, are, in my view, out of order: question 1(1)(b) on page 14, question 6(1) on page 15, question 15 on page 17 and question 1(1) on page 19. As previously indicated in my earlier ruling, I will allow those Ministers who have prepared responses to these questions to deliver them.

Where there are no responses, my ruling is that these questions not be proceeded with, and consequently be removed from the Question Paper.

I will also be requesting the Secretary to the NCOP to assist the Rules Committee in arriving at rules that will help us avoid this practice of Ministers responding to questions relating to a former era of Parliament.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION Mr K D S DURR: Madam Chair, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) takes note that the annual number of notified malaria cases and deaths has risen dramatically in the past decade, from 4 693 cases and 19 deaths in 1991, to 10 289 cases and 12 deaths in 1994, to 51 535 cases and 402 deaths in 1999; and

(2) therefore requests the Minister of Health to take urgent note and to institute an inquiry with a view to taking decisive action.

                  POLITICAL SITUATION IN PALESTINE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M I MAKOELA: Madam Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with grave concern the deterioration in the political situation in Palestine;

(2) condemns in particular the recent killing and wounding by the Israeli army of scores of Palestinian civilians; and

(3) urges all parties in the area to comply with and implement the agreements reached between them and to co-operate in the search for a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the region.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to the motion?

Mr K D S DURR: I object, Madam Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! There has been an objection. The motion will therefore become notice of a motion.

    INCIDENCE OF TAXI VIOLENCE ON ROAD BETWEEN UMTATA AND IDUTYWA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr B WILLEM: Madam Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with shock and horror the incident which occurred at the Mtentu cuttings on the road between Umtata and Idutywa in the Eastern Cape yesterday;

(2) further notes that five people, travelling in a taxi, were killed and seven injured when people in a car, overtaking the taxi, opened fire on the taxi, causing it to leave the road and overturn;

(3) also notes that countless motions have been moved in the Council lamenting the frequent and tragic taxi-related violence in South Africa;

(4) urges the community to support and co-operate with the Department of Safety and Security in the investigation in order to bring the perpetrators to justice;

(5) expresses its deep sympathy with the victims and their families; and

(6) expresses the hope that the perpetrators of this and other violent crimes will speedily be arrested and made to realise that those who do the crime must do the time.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

REFLECTION ON SOUTH AFRICA’S PARTICIPATION IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES IN SYDNEY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that the South African contingent of athletes who had participated in the recently completed Olympic Games in Sydney had performed generally not so successfully as all South Africans would have liked;

(2) requests the National Olympic Council of South Africa, under the stewardship of Mr Sam Ramsamy to -

   (a)  undertake a serious audit of its state of affairs;


   (b)  offer a more plausible explanation than shortage of funds for
       the disappointing turn of events in Sydney; and


   (c)  ensure that its future plans of action do not fall short of what
       South Africans expect of their sportsmen and sportswomen
       participating in international events such as the Olympic Games;

(3) believes that it is high time that Nocsa concerns itself with selections on merit rather than allow extraneous factors to influence selection of participants; and

(4) further believes that the South African public is mature enough to feel national pride even when such team selections based on merit are monochrome.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to the motion?

Mr M V MOOSA: Yes, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! There is an objection. In the light of the objection the motion will not be proceeded with. It will become notice of a motion.

CALL FOR COMPENSATION OF FARMERS AFFECTED BY OUTBREAK OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the district of Camperdown in KwaZulu-Natal; (2) acknowledges the serious economic consequences of this disease for the South African economy and, in particular, for the farming community of KwaZulu-Natal and certain areas of Mpumalanga;

(3) further acknowledges efforts by the Department of Agriculture to combat this dreadful disease, involving the putting down of thousands of animals; and

(4) calls on the Government quickly to take the necessary steps to compensate the affected farmers for the loss of livestock and the suspension of farming activities.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

MASS-PRODUCED ARTEFACTS AND HANDICRAFTS FLOODING THE SOUTH AFRICAN MARKET

                         (Draft Resolution)

Rev M CHABAKU: Madam Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) notes with great dismay the flooding of our country with objects of art from other countries purporting to be South African handicrafts, thus hoodwinking tourists from within the country and beyond the borders;

(2) further notes that the mass-produced artefacts and handicrafts eclipse and thwart the production and sale of South African products; and

(3) expresses the opinion that efforts should be made to support and display truly indigenous and innovative products made by us, owned by us and for ourselves.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to the motion?

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I would like to suggest an amendment, that the following paragraph be added after paragraph (3):

``(4) calls on the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology to intensify a `Buy South Africa’ campaign.’’

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to that addition? There is none.

Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, namely:

That the Council -

(1) notes with great dismay the flooding of our country with objects of art from other countries purporting to be South African handicrafts, thus hoodwinking tourists from within the country and beyond the borders;

(2) further notes that the mass-produced artefacts and handicrafts eclipse and thwart the production and sale of South African products;

(3) expresses the opinion that efforts should be made to support and display truly indigenous and innovative products made by us, owned by us and for ourselves; and

(4) calls on the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology to intensify a “Buy South Africa” campaign.

            DEATH THREAT TO PREMIER OF THE NORTHERN CAPE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) takes note of the death threat received by the Premier of the Northern Cape;

(2) acknowledges the risk public figures run while conducting their daily tasks; and

(3) condemns the ever increasing wave of crime in the country.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        FLOODS IN BANGLADESH

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr L SUKA: Madam Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the catastrophic floods that hit Bangladesh, killing hundreds of people and leaving millions more homeless;

(2) further notes that Bangladesh is a developing country with limited resources;

(3) expresses its deep concern over the impact of the floods on further economic and social development in the country;

(4) wishes to extend its deepest sympathy to the people and government of Bangladesh in these trying times; and

(5) calls on the international community to rush to the assistance of Bangladesh and to provide assistance in efforts to alleviate the human tragedy that has unfolded in that country.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                   PRECEDENCE TO ORDERS OF THE DAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That precedence be given to Orders No 3 and 4.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

PROCEDURE TO BE FOLLOWED IN RESPECT OF QUESTIONS TO PRESIDENT AND DEPUTY PRESIDENT

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council, on the recommendation of the Rules Committee of the National Council of Provinces, resolves that the procedure to be followed in respect of Questions to the President and the Deputy President be as follows:

(1) No questions should be put to the President.

(2) The Deputy President should on every alternate occasion when Questions are scheduled for plenary be available to answer questions put to him.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr C ACKERMANN: Mevrou die Voorsitter, die Wes-Kaap maak ernstig beswaar teen hierdie besluit dat geen vrae aan die President van die RSA in hierdie Raad toegelaat sal word nie. Trouens, daar was versoeke dat ‘n meer buigsame en verbruikersvriendelike proses van vrae aan die President ingestel moet word, byvoorbeeld dat die President drie of vier keer per jaar in die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies vrae sal beantwoord. Ook dit was onaanvaarbaar. Al die opposisiepartye - die VCDP, die ACDP, die IVP, die Nuwe NP en die DP - het hulle ook geruime tyd beywer om hierdie besluit in die veelpartyswepeforum te voorkom.

Die Wes-Kaap se teenkanting word ook verder duideliker in die lig van die volgende redes. Eerstens druis die besluit in teen die gees van die Grondwet, wat in artikel 92(2) voorsiening maak dat lede van die Kabinet, met inbegrip van die President, afsonderlik en gesamentlik teenoor die Parlement aanspreeklik is. In artikel 42(1) word dit uitdruklik bepaal dat die Parlement uit beide die Nasionale Vergadering en die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies bestaan. Derhalwe sal ‘n standpunt van die Konstitusionele Hof oor hierdie aangeleentheid uiters interessant wees.

Tweedens, in die lig van persepsies wat reeds bestaan en verder versterk word in ‘n verslag wat oor die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies verskyn het waarin hierdie Raad se doeltreffendheid en provinsiale inspraak bevraagteken word, is dit ‘n verdere slag vir die voortbestaan van die genoemde Raad. Voorts plaas dit die ANC se toegewydheid jeens die Grondwet verder onder die soeklig en versterk dit sienings dat die ANC eerder meer sentralisering van regeringsbesluite wil teweeg bring deur die Grondwet te interpreteer en te buig deur gewone wetgewing en parlementêre reëls.

Derdens plaas hierdie besluit om geen vrae aan die President toe te laat nie ‘n denkwyse van die ANC om die magte van provinsies af te skaal tot administratiewe uitvoerende strukture en eerder die magte aan plaaslike regering te versterk en te kontroleer deur regulasies en interowerheidstoekennings weer op die voorgrond.

Vierdens is dit onaanvaarbaar dat die President tyd kan vind om vrae op Cosatu se jaarlikse kongresse te beantwoord terwyl ‘n Huis van die Parlement ondergeskik gestel word. Dit skyn ook dat die President se voortdurende buitelandse reise ‘n ernstige impak het op sy beskikbaarheid vir die parlementêre program.

In die lig van bogenoemde kon die Wes-Kaap nie anders nie as om teen hierdie besluit te stem, wat daarop neerkom dat die ANC se verkiesingsbeloftes van meer deursigtigheid en groter aanspreeklikheid teenoor die kiesers van die RSA in die sand uitloop. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C ACKERMANN: Madam Chairperson, the Western Cape takes serious exception to this decision that questions to the President will not be allowed in this Council. In fact, there were requests for the implementation of a more flexible and user-friendly questions procedure, for instance that three or four times per year the President would answer questions in the National Council of Provinces. This was also unacceptable. All the opposition parties - the UCDP, the ACDP, the IFP, the New NP and the DP - have been striving for a considerable period of time to avoid this decision in the multiparty whips’ forum.

The Western Cape’s resistance furthermore also becomes clearer in the light of the following reasons. Firstly, this decision contravenes the spirit of the Constitution, which provides in section 92(2) that members of the Cabinet, including the President, are individually and collectively accountable to Parliament. Section 42(1) categorically stipulates that Parliament consists of both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces. The position of the Constitutional Court on this matter would therefore be extremely interesting.

Secondly, in the light of perceptions which already prevail and are further amplified in a report that has been published on the National Council of Provinces, in which this Council’s efficiency and provincial standing are questioned, this is a further blow to the continued existence of said Council. Furthermore, this places the ANC’s loyalty towards the Constitution under the spotlight and it reinforces the view that the ANC would rather bring about more centralised decision-taking by Government by interpreting and bending the Constitution by way of ordinary legislation and parliamentary rules.

Thirdly, this decision not to allow questions to the President once again brings to the fore a school of thought of the ANC of scaling down provincial powers to administrative executive structures and of rather reinforcing the powers of local government and controlling them by way of regulations and intergovernmental allocations.

Fourthly, it is unacceptable that the President can find the time to answer questions at Cosatu’s annual congresses, while one of the Houses of Parliament is rendered subordinate. It would also appear that the President’s continual overseas trips are having a serious impact on his availability for the parliamentary programme.

In the light of the abovementioned, the Western Cape has had no option but to vote against this decision, which boils down to the ANC’s election promises of more transparency and greater accountability towards the electorate of the RSA running out into the sand.]

Mr M V MOOSA: Madam Chair, the position of Gauteng is that accountability is not only in the form of Question Time. Parliament has a number of other mechanisms of accounting. If the President of the Republic of South Africa does not answer questions in the National Council of Provinces, that does not mean, therefore, that he does not subject himself to the accountability that goes with his office, or that he does not subject himself, in one way or the other, to being accountable to the electorate of this country.

There have been a number of occasions, dealt with in terms of our Rules book, such as matters of public importance, the Presidential Budget debates, etc, when neither the province that objects now, nor other provinces, have taken the opportunity to place such matters on the Order Paper in order to engage the President on such matters. If they have not utilised those mechanisms, it does not therefore mean that the Presidency does not regard itself as accountable to this House.

I must say that from the side of Gauteng we believe that there are a number of other mechanisms in our Rules book that would continue to allow us to engage the President as and when necessary, and we are fully satisfied that this motion is in order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon member, do you wish to raise a point of order?

Mr L G LEVER: Yes, Madam Chair. With due respect to my colleague from Gauteng, that was not a declaration of Gauteng’s vote. It was a reply to the declaration of vote made for the Western Cape.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon member, with due respect, you cannot determine what is Gauteng’s declaration. The hon member indicated to me that he was tabling on behalf of Gauteng. I have to accept the bona fides of that, unless you have information available to you which could contradict that. I am afraid you are not raising a point of order.

Mr L G LEVER: Well, I can only go by what is said in the Chamber, Madam Chair.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution (Western Cape dissenting and KwaZulu-Natal abstaining).

              LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL SYSTEMS BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chairperson, hon members I very much appreciate the honour of introducing to the House this important Bill, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill. Together with the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill, this Bill was recently adopted by the National Assembly. Should it receive the concurrence of the NCOP, then we shall firmly get on to the road to modernising the way our local communities are governed.

The two Bills I have referred to seek to shape the new local government dispensation and to influence its efficacy. The process of modernising local government itself predates the formal adoption of our country’s Constitution. The step we are taking today concludes the trajectory of local government reforms which has been unfolding under the aegis of the Local Government Transition Act.

More importantly, it also consolidates the role of local government as a full partner in the governance and transformation of the country. Since its promulgation, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act has provided us with the legislative base for democratising the structure of government and the substance of local democracy. As we have said before, successive colonial and apartheid regimes introduced systems of local government which marginalised urban black communities as well as traditional rural communities. Our people in these communities have for many years felt the downdraught of this exclusion. The persisting conditions of underdevelopment in these black areas speak to the urgency with which we must be seen to be moving forward towards establishing new municipal entities. The establishment of new municipal entities, which will come by way of elections, will put to an end the decades-old marginalisation of black people.

This is the context within which we should look at the recently concluded demarcation of municipal boundaries. Whereas traditional rural communities were condemned to remain islands of poverty with no meaningful prospects of development, the demarcation process allows them to form part of larger municipalities and to more effectively achieve the economies of scale. Only in this way can the population densities be better managed and the need for services such as markets and transport nodes be adequately addressed.

When traditional leaders indicated to the Government that they were not happy with some of the proposed boundaries which affect areas under their jurisdiction, President Mbeki asked the Municipal Demarcation Board to once more apply its mind to the concerns of traditional leaders. I wish to take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks both to the Municipal Demarcation Board and to individual traditional leaders who co-operated in order to find an amicable way of resolving this matter. In the process the board changed the outer boundaries of more than 20 municipalities to ensure that traditional leaders’ areas are aligned and fall within a single jurisdiction. Thanks to this co-operation, the issue of the redemarcation of municipal boundaries before the forthcoming elections has been brought to a close.

The marginalisation we talk about had a political as well as a socioeconomic base. Given this, it is inevitable that there will be a battle between new and old visions of local government. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill seeks to provide a framework for bringing the citizens into an active relationship with government. If we are to succeed in re-engaging the public, then we must understand the extent to which they were excluded and alienated. We must also understand the methods and mechanisms which were used to achieve that exclusion and alienation. When we reflect on this history of the institution in governance, we cannot ignore the fact that some amongst our traditional leaders took positions which merited unpopularity. We point this out not as a basis to deny them a role in the continuing democratisation of our country, but with a view to inviting them to co-operate with the project of transforming our country.

Government, as hon members know, has said time without number that our disposition is towards enhancing the role of the institution of traditional leadership in matters of governance. We have created the National House of Traditional Leaders and provincial houses of traditional leaders, and levels of traditional leaders’ representation in structures of local government have been increased. All these steps bear testimony to our intention to enhance the status of the institution of traditional leadership, a status denied them by successive colonial and apartheid regimes.

The National Assembly, as well as the NCOP, have also passed legislation which empowers provinces to fashion their own policies in ways which facilitate co-operation between local government and the institution of traditional leadership. This much was pointed out both in eyeball-to- eyeball discussions with traditional leaders and in the President’s letter to traditional leaders. It bears emphasising that whilst some of these matters can be discussed and resolved between Government and the traditional leaders, others are matters which do not lend themselves to being dealt with by way of executive discretion. The legislative bodies of our country will have to be given the opportunity to pronounce themselves on some of these issues.

It will therefore be understood why Government is unfolding a White Paper process and a legislative process which go to the heart of this question of the role, powers and functions of traditional leaders. In this regard we put forward a timeframe which is eminently reasonable, given the immensity of the task involved in rationalising more than 1 500 pieces of old-order legislation which bear on the institution of traditional leaders. Looking at it this way, it ought to be easy for anyone who cares to listen to understand that it would be wrong to insist on making full and final resolution of these matters a condition for holding the forthcoming local government elections.

Even as we agreed to postpone the announcement of the election date, we did emphasise that the fact that we were postponing the announcement of the election date should not be read to mean that we were unmindful of the urgency involved in the matter. From the point of view of Government, we have done everything we need to do in order to create the necessary conditions for the holding of the elections. The Municipal Demarcation Board and the Independent Electoral Commission have also done a commendable job in this regard.

The elections themselves represent a moment of hope which our people have fought for. Nobody has the right to postpone that moment of hope. We concur with the overwhelming call for the need to urgently proclaim the date of the elections, and we promise to do so soon enough. As a matter of fact, we are ready to announce the election date this week. The technical committee established by Government and traditional leaders must understand that it does not have the luxury of time. They must put us in a position to announce this election date and announce it this week, because that is our intention. [Applause.]

Ms C BOTHA: Madam Chair, hon Minister, members, I would have thought it was the Government that had it in its power to decide when the election should take place, and not that they were the hostage of any other faction. I want to tell the hon the Minister that the local government portfolio committee reported to Parliament that the ability of a municipality to appropriately implement the provisions of this Bill would depend crucially on issues of capacity, resources and funding, as well as on the political will of public representatives in all three spheres of government.

These are issues which were extremely problematic during the period of transition, as can be deduced from the precarious state in which municipalities now find themselves. Some of these issues can be resolved by legislation, but capacity and political will, which have been glaringly absent during the transitional phase of local government, remain the challenge on which this legislation may flourish or flounder.

The DP believes in small government, but government that delivers. The ANC, on the other hand, has chosen to create bigger municipalities, centralising decisions in the hands of political functionaries, some of whom, it is said, may even be deployed from Cabinet. It is quite clear, as in the case of appointed premiers, that the ANC does not trust the ordinary local communities, whom they claim to champion in this Bill. Their basic reasoning is flawed. Local government should be run by local leaders who are elected by a local community. While so much emphasis in the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is on the idea of community participation, even to the extent of considering it central to the Bill, this would immediately be contradicted by the imposition of outsiders as councillors. Why should a community be involved in municipal affairs if merely to give credence to an imposed leadership? So much for community participation!

Another precept of this Bill which enforces the centralist tendency is the multitude of Ministerial guidelines and regulations, something which is becoming a frighteningly regular feature of ANC legislation, which gives sweeping powers to the Minister to interfere in the day-to-day affairs of municipalities. Added to this is the new power division developing between district councillors and provincial government, with funds and services finding direct routes to district councils and by-passing provinces, as well as the increasing role of Salga. This was alluded to by the present Minister in a previous appearance in this House, and is seemingly part of a grand scheme not yet fully revealed to this Council but perhaps linked to the report commissioned on intergovernmental relations.

The Bill proposes that organised local government must seek to develop common approaches for local government as a distinct sphere, while the Constitution states that national and provincial governments must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs. This provision of the Municipal Systems Bill does not empower local government, but prescribes and inhibits its role. Chapter 8, which deals with municipal service providers, illustrates a clear trade-off of competing interests. On the one hand, we have the Minister’s dilemma. He is convinced that adequate municipal services cannot be supplied to the majority of citizens unless agreements are negotiated with the private sector, CBOs and NGOs.

Cosatu knows that if privatisation gains momentum its membership will fall. It takes no genius to see who had the final say in the drafting of chapter 8, if we look at the stringent conditions which municipalities have to consider before they can look at private-sector partnerships. One must contrast this with the rebuffed submissions of traditional leaders, reputedly the preferred form of representation of at least 15 million South Africans. The Demarcation Board decimated the boundaries of traditional rural communities without so much as a by-your-leave. Now the whole country is being held to ransom because the Government could not coerce the traditional leaders into line with the 10% additional council seat allocation. So much for community participation!

While the DP truly admires the broad sweep of good intentions underlying the Bill, the philosophy of developmental government, public participation, integrated development plans, performance management, service delivery, and all those good things, it cannot support the way in which they are supposed to be brought about. The authority and control are suspect. Sadly, the poor and disadvantaged may once again become the victims of another transitional failure, probably to the tune of more billions of rand if we do not let common sense and good clean government take control of delivery. The DP cannot support this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr M MADLALA (Salga): Chairperson, Chairperson of the NCOP Madam Naledi Pandor in absentia, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP Lawrence Mushwana in absentia, Minister for Provincial and Local Government Mr Sydney Mufamadi, members of the Council, ladies and gentlemen, I greet you all. This is a significant plenary meeting for local government. It signifies the closure of the local government interim phase and opens a new chapter for a permanent feature of local government in South Africa.

We planned together in the preinterim phase, we implemented together in the interim phase, and we shall consolidate together in the final phase of local government. I must also indicate that this has not been without challenges for both politicians and officials within local government. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill defines a municipality as consisting of ``the political structures and administration of the municipality; and the community of the municipality.’’ The emphasis here is on the community of the municipality.

The emphasis throughout this Bill is on community participation, that is, government with the people. It therefore changes the classic definition of democracy to government of the people by the people and with the people,'' and no more,for the people’’. To us this is the fulfilment of one of the historic documents in South Africa, the Freedom Charter, which states that the people shall govern.

While local government in South Africa is a creature of the South African Constitution, the Municipal Systems Bill provides the legal nature, rights and duties of municipalities. Read together with the Municipal Structures Act, the Municipal Systems Bill provides clarity on municipal powers and functions. It encourages community participation as part of the developmental role of local government. The proposed integrated development planning programmes bear testimony to this.

The Municipal Systems Bill requires municipalities to set up their own performance management system, to provide for alternative delivery mechanisms and to form municipal services partnerships. Municipalities will be obliged to apply credit control measures to communities who do not pay for services rendered. The plight of indigent residents will, of course, be considered favourably, but indigent residents will still have to pay for services consumed.

Finally, the Bill deals with the codes of conduct for councillors and for municipal staff members. It also provides for provincial interventions when all is said and done, eg when municipal assistance and capacity is provided, but a municipality still fails to execute its duties in terms of section 156 of the South African Constitution.

Public administration at local government level will be simplified by this legislation, the South African Constitution, and other pieces of legislation such as the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, the Municipal Finance Management Bill, the Promotion of Access to Information Act, the Administration of Justice Act, etc.

Extensive consultation in the process of formulating this legislation took place with various stakeholders submitting inputs. We could, without doubt, say that we, as organised local government, have complied with the provisions of section 154(2) of the Constitution. In this regard we want to thank the chairpersons of the portfolio committee and the select committee, Mr Carrim and Mr Bhabha respectively.

Salga supports the present version of the Bill and that it be enacted and promulgated.

Referring to what the DP has said regarding Salga, I recommend that they read their Constitution very carefully, especially section 163, which deals with the manner in which Salga has to be consulted on matters regarding local government. This is also emphasised in section 154(2) of the Constitution. I will not elaborate on these points. [Applause.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, this new law will ensure that one’s vote is one’s voice, something which the majority of the people of our country were prepared to die for.

The apartheid government made sure that participation at local level was for a certain few communities. One of the main rallying cries of the struggle against apartheid was for the people to have a say in decisions that affected their daily lives.

Whilst I will be speaking on public participation, one cannot divorce that from accountability. For a change things will be simplified to a language that all will understand. Linking this to the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, councillors have a constitutional duty to inform and work with their constituencies.

Notice of ordinary or special council meetings should be put in all newsletters or communications of the council. The simplified meaning of the entire Bill is that a municipality is accountable to the public it serves. The transformation process in the local government sphere since the dawn of freedom has addressed the challenge to enhance and deepen democracy at the level closest to the people.

In preparing for the final phase of local government transition, the new vision of developmental government has been developed and largely implemented through legislation such as the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act.

Also included in this Bill will be the municipalities’ role in service delivery, poverty eradication and the improvement of social and economic conditions of our public, especially the disadvantaged communities. Because of this ANC Government, accountability and transparency now exist. One now even hears from parties who, in the past, said nothing. Now they have the guts to say this Bill is unacceptable.

The Constitution recognises that participation, among other things, is critical for ensuring sustainable democratic and developmental local government. Section 152 of the Constitution states the objectives of local governments. As this is also covered in Chapter 4 of this Bill, it is a non- negotiable mandate of municipalities. It compels municipalities to develop a culture of formal representative government with a system of participatory governance.

This Bill, through community participation, will ensure and instil responsibility in the citizenry as communities will be actively involved in the budget preparation processes that will take their needs and priorities on board. Communities will be engaged through the process of integrated development plans and will also be involved in monitoring municipalities through the process of performance management systems. There will also be strategic decision-makers who need to become involved in service delivery. No other party can be more democratic than the ANC. Those who say that this will be an extra burden on the cash-strapped municipalities are not telling the truth. They have to consider that municipalities will be reduced and clustered to become financially viable.

We all know that communities are not homogeneous. They are made up of different groups, some of which are more organised and have better access to resources than others. It is therefore important to note that the poor and disadvantaged are not excluded.

Most municipal councils throughout the country do experience serious financial constraints due to nonpayment for services and poor administration. If communities are active participants in the affairs of the municipalities, this problem will be easily dealt with and the municipalities will thus be able to effectively implement credit control and collection policies.

The Bill also introduces the concept of customer care and management with regard to credit control and debt collection. This system aims to create positive and reciprocal relationships between persons liable for these payments and the municipality.

It further directs municipal councils to adopt, maintain and implement credit control and debt collection. This will correct the practice currently employed of introducing credit control and debt collection haphazardly and without proper policies.

Municipal councils will also be able to identify those people who can afford to pay, but do not pay, for services rendered by making provision for indigent debtors and also be able to differentiate between different categories of ratepayers or users of services.

In conclusion, the White Paper on Local Government states that local government has a critical role to play in consolidating our new democracy, and it is up to each councillor, each official and each citizen to make their contribution in the area where they live and work. The Bill is one of the most important and critical building blocks that facilitate and promote democratic and developmental local governments.

Finally, on behalf of the ANC in the Western Cape, I want to say that we have been waiting for this kind of governance and that we therefore support the Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is a testimony to our Government’s commitment to improve the quality of life in all communities by promoting strong, effective and accountable local government.

It is the culmination of a long process which started in 1993 with the establishment of the Local Government Negotiating Forum. The mission of this forum was to contribute to the bringing about of a democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and financially viable local government system.

In July 1993 the forum resolved that the transition to nonracial local government would be implemented in three phases. The first was the preinterim phase, in which all existing local authorities would be replaced by nominated transitional, local and metropolitan councils. The second phase was the interim phase in which elections would be held for transitional councils. In the third and final phase, a final constitutional model for local government would be implemented.

The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill represents the final phase in this process. It builds on the strong foundation that has already been laid by the White Paper on Local Government as well as the Local Government Transition Act, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act and other legislation dealing with the transformation of local government.

Municipal government is all about the delivery of service. As the tier of government that is closest to our people, the municipalities have the responsibility of putting into practice the Government’s development plans. While municipal councils in some areas have made significant progress in addressing backlogs and extending services, we continue to be confronted with infrastructural disparities and inequalities in many others, caused by a variety of factors including competition among different municipalities.

An example of this is the tussle between the Cape Town City Council and the Cape Metropolitan Council over the spending of funds designated for infrastructural development in the poor areas.

As much as a third of these funds remain unused because of a lack of consensus on where they should be spent. Without proper guidelines on municipal planning and intermunicipal co-operation, situations like this will continue to arise. This clearly indicates the inadequacy of the existing municipal institutional framework.

This is why the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is such an important piece of legislation. It will require municipalities to adopt integrated development plans, which must be aligned with, and complement the development plans and strategies of other affected municipalities.

A municipality’s integrated development plan must set out the overall strategy for achieving its developmental objectives and include the municipality’s strategies for mobilising resources and capacity and for transforming its service delivery mechanisms. As part of its integrated development planning process, a municipality should consider which services could best be provided directly by itself, and which services could best be provided by forming partnerships with the public sector, private sector or NGOs.

It is these municipal service partnerships that I now want to address. The Department of Provincial and Local Government has estimated our municipal infrastructure and service backlog to be about R50 billion. Furthermore, it is feared that if we are to address these backlogs through public-sector resources alone, many communities may only receive services in the year 2065.

In addition, we are also confronted with the reality that many municipalities lack the necessary capacity and finances to improve and extend the delivery of services to the communities they serve. This is particularly true of municipalities in rural areas. These things are happening at a time when the demand for basic services continues to outpace the available Government finances.

All of these factors point to one very important issue, and that is that municipalities will have to look for innovative ways of providing and accelerating the delivery of basic services. Public-private partnerships are one such innovation. This combination brings together the respective talents of each to deliver what has traditionally been considered a Government activity. Public-private partnerships will enable municipal governments to meet the demands for public services, while using less of their own scarce resources and still maintaining, or even improving, the quality of services offered.

Although I accept that there are many benefits to be gained from public- private partnerships, I still believe that Government should retain the responsibility of ensuring that the wider public interest is safeguarded. This can be done by setting and monitoring safety, quality and performance standards for privatised services, and by enforcing those standards. [Applause.]

Mnr J HORNE: Mevrou die Voorsitter, agb Minister en lede van die Huis, graag wil ek ‘n paar aspekte en implikasies van die betrokke wetgewing bespreek. In die eerste plek dien dit vermeld te word dat dit die portefeuljekomitee van die Nasionale Vergadering weke geneem het om dié wetgewing deur te werk, maar die gekose komitee van dié Huis het slegs een uur daarvoor gekry. Alhoewel dit artikel 75-wetgewing is, ontstaan die vraag op sigself of dit die Huis se funksie is om maar net kennis te neem en daarna ‘n stempel op te sit ter bekragtiging. Dit sal jammer wees as die NRP slegs ‘n nabootser en ‘n slaafse meeloper is van die Nasionale Vergadering. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] Die uiteinde daarvan sal wees dat die NRP dan gesien kan word as ‘n administratiewe liggaam wat slegs dien as ‘n rubberstempel, of ``a bloody nuisance’’, soos beskryf in ‘n artikel oor die NRP in ‘n naweekkoerant verlede week.

In die tweede plek gee die Grondwet in artikels 40 en 41 volwaardige status aan plaaslike regering as ‘n sfeer van regering. Tog is hierdie wetgewing nie juis ‘n erkenning van daardie grondwetlike status nie, soos blyk uit die voorskriftelikheid met die skep van meganismes om plaaslike regering te reguleer. Agt hoofstukke van die wetsontwerp gee magte aan die Minister. Die verlede het egter bewys dat diktatoriale magte diktators skep.

Die wetsontwerp lê sterk klem op gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid, en dit word verwelkom dat die gemeenskap aan boord geneem word, gesien in die lig van deelnemende regering. Wanneer die gemeenskap egter dieselfde status kry as ‘n politieke struktuur, maar uitgesluit word van regsaanspreeklikheid, ontstaan daar vrae wat roep om beantwoord te word.

Ten slotte, alles is darem nie negatief nie. Daar is baie goeie dinge in die betrokke wetgewing wat dividende kan lewer indien dit reg bestuur word, soos die privatisering van dienste waar dit moontlik is, asook geïntegreerde ontwikkelingsbeplanning wat langtermynvoordele kan inhou.

Ook die verskaffing van basiese dienste en die betaling daarvoor is ‘n stap in die regte rigting, maar dit sal ‘n proses wees om hierdie wetgewing beslag te laat kry.

In die lig daarvan kan die Nuwe NP nie daarvoor stem nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J HORNE: Madam Chair, hon Minister and members of the Council, I would like to discuss a few aspects and implications of the relevant legislation. Firstly, it should be mentioned that it took the portfolio committee of the National Assembly weeks to work through this legislation, whereas the select committee of this Council was given only one hour to do so.

Although we are dealing with section 75 legislation, the question arises as to whether it is the function of the Council simply to take cognisance of legislation and then to rubber-stamp it. It would be a pity if the NCOP were merely to copy and follow slavishly in the footsteps of the National Assembly. [Interjections.] This would result in the NCOP’s being seen as an administrative body which merely serves as a rubber stamp, or a ``bloody nuisance’’, as described in an article on the NCOP in a weekend newspaper last week.

Secondly, sections 40 and 41 of the Constitution accord full status to local government as a sphere of government. Even so, this legislation is not actually an acknowledgement of that constitutional status, as is apparent from the prescriptiveness in the creation of mechanisms to regulate local government. Eight chapters of the Bill grant powers to the Minister. However, the past has proved that dictatorial powers create dictators.

The Bill places strong emphasis on community involvement, and we welcome the fact that the community is being taken on board in view of participatory governance. However, when the community is accorded the same status as a political structure, but is excluded from legal accountability, questions arise which need to be answered.

In conclusion, not everything is negative. There are many good things in the relevant legislation which could yield good returns if correctly managed, such as the privatisation of services where possible, as well as integrated development planning which could have long-term benefits.

The provision of basic services and payment for such services are also a step in the right direction, but it will involve an entire process to give substance to this legislation.

In view of this, the New NP cannot vote for this legislation.]

Mrs R A NDZANGA: Madam Chair, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill is the third piece of legislation to give effect to the White Paper on Local Government, the first two being the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. While the first two Acts deal with the institutional and jurisdictional aspects of the local government transformation process, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill seeks to establish the basic principles and mechanisms to give effect to our collective vision of development government through the notion of performance management. Its focus is therefore primarily on the internal system and administration of the municipalities.

This Bill has been drafted on the basis of a detailed investigation into the current capacity problems of local government, and the analysis of existing approaches and innovations to service delivery in local government. This Bill describes the core processes or elements that are essential to realising a truly developmental government system. These include performance management and reporting, resource allocation and organisational change.

This Bill is mandatory only to the extent that fundamental elements of public-sector reform, socioeconomic development, delivery of basic services and public reporting, and monitoring and accountability need to be applied uniformly on a countrywide basis. The system of uniformity on a countrywide basis with regard to performance management, amongst other things, will promote municipalities to operate within the framework which the Government draws up and will allow all citizens in our country to be treated in the same way.

There has been some contrary views by the opposition parties with regard to the performance management system. They allege that this system is like any other tool, and that the municipality may wish to use another tool. This Bill is trying to provide a uniform system so as to establish which municipalities are experiencing problems, and to offer help if the need arises.

The apartheid policies of forced removals and the Group Areas Act left a big scar in the way our towns are divided and unintegrated. Facilities were for many years provided in a way that disadvantaged black people in our townships and benefited whites in the suburbs. The Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill is going to change those environmental injustices of the past.

For instance, we have a huge dairy farm near Soweto. Senior citizens in my area always ask me questions about that dairy. They want to know who benefits from the milk that is produced at that dairy; they want to know who gets the milk; they want to know who feeds those fat cows - it is Soweto. The cows are in Soweto, but we do not get the milk. All that is going to change. We do not have a single dairy in Soweto. The people who have been, and still are, benefiting from that dairy are the whites in the white suburbs. This is going to change.

This system is to clarify the nature ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M I MAKOELA: Chairperson, the more things change, the more they remain the same. This is true about parties such as the DP and the New NP, which daily profess to have shed and relinquished their old and discredited discriminatory practices, but reveal their true colours whenever transformatory legislation, which seeks to redress the injustices and inequality of the past, comes before this House.

The White Paper on Local Government identifies integrated development planning as a key tool for promoting and realising developmental local government. Fundamentally, an integrated development plan represents a process through which municipalities establish strategic frameworks and development plans for the short, medium and long term. This planning system is a new and radical departure from the racially based planning programmes of the past dispensation, which were imposed on our communities without consultation, and at times with force, such as the discredited black local authorities which were forced upon our people during the 1980s.

Unlike in the past, the new approach encourages democracy, transparency and accountability by forcing municipalities to subject their development plans to public participation and evaluation. The prevailing problem has always been the uncertainty as to the precise status of integrated development plans at local government level.

At the moment there are various planning-related processes and documents that have some legal status and meaning at the local government level. These include structure plans, town planning schemes and land development objectives. Therefore, if integrated development plans are meant to be the most important output of the integrated development planning process, then it needs to be given an unambiguous status in law.

The relationship between integrated development plans and other existing documents then needs to be clarified. This is precisely what is intended by the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill in regard to this subject.

In terms of the Bill, municipalities are legally required to adopt a single, inclusive and strategic plan for the development of the municipality. Integrated development plans are therefore elevated to the status of the principal strategic plan of a municipality. An integrated development planning approach has many benefits. The following are some of the important benefits.

It enables municipalities to align and direct their financial and institutional resources towards agreed policy objectives and programmes. It is a vital tool to ensure the integration of local government activities with other spheres of development planning at provincial and national levels by serving as a basis for communication and interaction.

It serves as a basis for engagement between local government and citizens at local level, and with various stakeholders and interested groups. When I say ``citizens at local level’’, I am also a citizen at local level, as opposed to what Ms Botha has said here, namely that we are not citizens at local level - that we take decisions and therefore are not at local level.

It enables municipalities to weigh up their obligations and systematically prioritise programmes and resource allocations. In the context of great inequalities, an integrated development plan serves as a framework for municipalities to prioritise their actions around meeting urgent needs, while maintaining the overall economic municipal and social infrastructure already in place.

It assists local government to focus on the environmental sustainability of their delivery and development strategies, because sustainable development is development that delivers basic social and economic services to all, without threatening the viability of the ecological and community systems upon which these services depend. Therefore, integrated development planning will assist local government to develop a holistic strategy for poverty alleviation. [Applause.]

Mr M I KLAAS (Gauteng): Chairperson, the Minister for Provincial and Local Government, hon members, despite the political changes ushered in by the 1995 local elections, the legacy of apartheid remains embedded in many municipalities. Many are still traditional, rule-driven bureaucracies which are not used to servicing the public in a responsible manner.

Financial management systems are often weak in many municipalities. Apartheid employment regulations are often still in place, creating a degree of inflexibility in the system. Many municipalities remain untransformed and locked in old, inefficient ways of working.

It is the White Paper on Local Government which aims to establish a system of local governance in which municipalities play an increasingly important role in service delivery, eradicating poverty and improving the social and economic conditions of our people.

We see this Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill as a very important piece of legislation in that it seeks to establish the basic principles and mechanisms to give effect to a collectivisation of developmental government. It focuses primarily on the establishment of internal systems and the administration of municipalities. This legislation will put in place new processes and will create new institutions with new principles and support mechanisms that will enable local government transformation to take place.

Clause 4(2) of the Bill should be amended to include the following addition:

(k) treat communities, residents and ratepayers with dignity and respect.

Item 2 of Schedule 2, the Code of Conduct for Municipal Staff Members, should be amended to include the following addition:

(f) treat communities, residents and ratepayers with dignity and respect.

In Gauteng we expressed concerns regarding the incorrect tagging of the Bill as a section 75 Bill, instead of a section 76 Bill. The correct tagging of the Bill would have afforded us an opportunity to conduct proper consultation and a process of public hearings with local governments in the province in order to determine the practicality of the systems that are being put in place.

Our opinion is that the crucial provincial oversight role as reflected in Chapter 7 of the Constitution, particularly section 155(6), was overlooked in the tagging process. Although the Bill was classified as important at provincial level, we only deliberated and gave input on the basis of section 75 legislation, which was unsatisfactory. We support the principle of the Bill and the detail of the proposed amendments. [Applause.]

Mr M BHABHA: Chairperson, after having heard the speakers both from my party and from the opposition benches, I believe that it would be appropriate to give an historical perspective to the course we are now embarking upon. But, before I attempt to do that, I wish to commence on a personal note. The very political and administrative regime that the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill now seeks to replace has had a very real and profound effect on every individual sitting here today.

While some amongst us so articulately argued the reasons for not supporting the Bill, the sceptical but very accurate words of Bertrand Russell kept ringing in my ears. He said:

We have, in fact, two kinds of morality side by side; one which we preach but do not practise, and another which we practise but seldom preach.

These words ring so true because my recollection of events that charted my young life is littered with such ambiguities.

The mass removal of residents from Pageview in Johannesburg to Lenasia was conducted with the assistance of the then Johannesburg City Council. Need we remind ourselves who, in fact, was in control of that council at the time? Yes, members have guessed it, the predecessor of the DP, the PFP. The hon Adv Lever, who I hope is here - oh, he is not listening - must know that what made it so much more painful was the fact that while that very party made such eloquent protestations in the press, its supporters happily bought up the properties that were expropriated. But then, who are we to argue, for they are all all honourable people?

Is it not the experiences of Cato Manor that we seek to redress with this Bill? Yet I see in our midst the hon Mr Raju, who claims to have the interests of the people of Cato Manor at heart, vote against it. But who am I to argue? Who am I to question conscience, because they are all all- honourable people?

There is one thing I would like to share with the hon Ackermann. Honestly, if there was one redeeming feature I did find in the old NP, it was the fact that there was no pretence in what they did. They were honest about their intentions and they implemented their policies, no matter how diabolical they were.

I would like to tell the hon Botha that this issue is not about race, as we are so often accused of saying, nor is it about maintaining a burden of guilt over the heads of the privileged of the past. It is about extracting a collective responsibility for the past so that we can build a better future.

In April 1994 a reading of the election manifestos of the respective political parties made me pregnant with hope that indeed we had at long last turned over a new leaf. I believed that the collective responsibility we sought would lead to reconstruction. Instead, every transformation Bill that has come to this House has been met with resistance. No, the resistance does not now come in the form of crude and robust remarks. It is now dressed in a different form, embellished with questions of efficacy and clothed in technical and intellectual diversions. But, ever so often, the slip under the dress shows, whether it is the thumb in the coffee or the reference to a boy in the Chamber, it is the same thing. [Interjections.] I mean reference to a Minister or a Deputy Minister as a boy in the National Assembly. We have not been reading the press, have we? Deep down we know the real reason for opposing the Bill. It is to maintain a system that at least the NP was honest about.

The hon Ackermann would remember a definition of a PFP member that used to be bandied about in years gone by, which said that a PFP member was one that voted for the Progs but prayed like hell that the NP would win. How else could one get land so cheap? I ask members what has changed. But, then again, who are we to question? They are all all-honourable people.

Now to the business at hand. The forthcoming local government elections bring to a close one of the few transitional measures that are still with us, from the era of the Kempton Park negotiations. The sunset clause that maintained certain political assurances finally comes to a close. What confronts us now is a challenge that is succinctly captured in the Constitution. It mandates local government to provide democratic and accountable government for local communities, ensure the provision of services to communities in a sustainable manner, promote social and economic development and encourage the involvement of communities and community organisations in the matters of local government.

The series of Acts and Bills that followed the passing of the White Paper establishes the basis for a new developmental local government system, which is committed to working with citizens, groups and communities to create sustainable human settlements which provide for a decent quality of life and meet the social, economic and material needs of communities in a holistic way. While the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act defines the political structures of new local government models, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill restructures the internal systems of municipalities. The core of this Bill is contained in three key chapters. These are the chapters that deal with community participation, public-private partnerships and the relationship between the administration and the councillors.

Speakers have already discussed these areas quite extensively, but I would like to discuss the latter somewhat further. The past five years has shown us that there has been a somewhat awkward relationship between the administration and the councillors, largely because these areas of operation are not clearly defined in the system that has evolved from the British system. We found that councillors felt hamstrung in implementing policy and placing a transformation agenda on the table. In many instances they felt that their work was an unnecessary appendage. The credibility of councillors lay in question in many instances. I, for one, can cite a number of examples in which the quality of services still continues to be disparate, despite the policy of the council. The creation of performance contracts and key performance indicators that must be met seek to address some of the inadequacies of the past. We hope to have a greater degree of accountability as a result.

This House has been involved in a number of interventions in terms of section 139. Members will remember that what was particularly frustrating was to approve an intervention in a town when the patient was already in the intensive care unit. We constantly appealed for an early warning system. I am pleased to inform members that those early warning systems have now been created. For example, if an integrated development plan has not been submitted to the MEC by a council either timeously or at all, the NCOP has to be duly informed by the MEC. There would also be a link between the Auditor-General’s office and the NCOP. A report by the Auditor-General on the state of affairs in the municipalities of a province must be tabled with the NCOP.

I believe that perhaps a restructuring of the administration of this House may have to be considered to accommodate the important role this House will play in this regard. I agree with the member from the provincial legislature Mr Klaas about the tagging. Clearly the tagging committee is viewing local government as a function of provincial government and not as a sphere of government. Consequently legislation like this one is being tagged as section 75 legislation when there is no doubt of the impact of the legislation in provinces. I would urge the presiding officers to take the matter up in the appropriate forum. If an amendment to the Constitution is required, so be it. But, clearly, the intention of the Constitution is not being honoured by Bills of this nature being tagged as section 75 legislation.

Finally, I would like to thank the members of my committee for enduring long hours, sometimes up to 16 hours, on the trot to consider this Bill. I would also like to express my thanks to Jackie Manche, Fanie Louw, whom I can see sitting up in the gallery, and to Dr Bouwer, who persevered throughout our constant interrogation. I must also extend a special word of thanks to my counterpart, Mr Yunus Carrim, who, in his inimitable way ensured that we did not stray from the task. Although I do not think the Minister has a say in the salaries of his staff, he is surrounded by a team that has a work ethic like no other. [Laughter.] I think I should tell him that.

Let us fasten our seatbelts and usher in the new system. We may just enjoy the ride, provided local government gets its fair share of funding. I hope the hon Ms Mahlangu will take note of what I am saying. It will be a long one and we may not achieve everything at once, but if we are armed with the will I am certain that we will reap the harvest of the efforts of many. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank all hon members who participated in this debate. I note that the hon speaker from the DP specifically said that the DP did not support the Bill. I suppose it is their democratic right not to support democratic legislation. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The hon member proceeded to say that the DP did not support the Bill because Government advocates the establishment of big municipalities. What we know is that the DP, by its various names, was not in the least concerned about the exclusion of people of my type from benefiting from the revenue base which they help to generate. We go to Johannesburg, work there and generate a lot of revenue, but it should not follow us to Soweto, and that is what they mean by the necessity of keeping municipalities small.

The hon member went on to decry the fact that Government did not coerce, as she put it, traditional leaders to accept the forthcoming local government elections. Indeed, the word ``coerce’’ does not exist in our political vocabulary. [Laughter.] She also talked about positions taken by the Government which amount to imposing leaders on communities. It takes the unique genius that she is to see what the rest of us do not see, namely the imposition of leaders through democratic elections.

The hon Mr Horne from the New NP complained about what he called the dictatorial powers conferred on the Minister by the Bill. I guess he joined the New NP a bit too late. Perhaps this was because, for a long time, its ranks were not open to him and me. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] They did not tell him about this progressive literature which they banned, which if he had had access to it, he would have known something about the necessity of managing the creative tension that exists between local discretion and national unity. But I suppose he can only blame his own party and not me for that. [Laughter.] I want to repeat what I said earlier in case the hon member Ms Botha did not understand what I said. The responsibility of announcing the local government election date lies with Government, and Government intends to make that announcement this week. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Party and New National Party dissenting).

        LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL STRUCTURES AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! As there is no speakers’ list, I will put the question that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63, I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish.

Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Bill has not been introduced. We do not know which Bill you are referring to now. We have just voted on the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill. You have declared the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill passed, but you have not put the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill yet. So we do not know what is under discussion.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The Order was actually read out by the Secretary, and it was read out loudly and clearly.

Declarations of vote:

Mr A MARAIS: Chairperson, when the committee considered the Bill yesterday, we made two further amendments to the Bill, and we will be forwarding those amendments to the National Assembly. The amending Bill is an intermediary measure, a carry-through device that will ensure continuity and stability. It is aimed at facilitating and finalising the demarcation process and the impending local government elections.

Further, modernisation, as the Minister has alluded to, is inevitable. Based on this, the ANC will continue to work tirelessly to ensure that traditionalism is preserved as a symbol of unity and legitimacy.

Flowing from this, together with traditional leaders, we will transform ruling monarchies into modern reigning monarchies. What remains is for this House to start chasing the targets set in this and other local government transformation legislation, in collaboration with other spheres of government.

Finally, it is incumbent upon this House to operationalise the principles of section 41 of our Constitution. The ANC supports the Bill.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Is there any other political party that wishes to make a declaration?

Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, I am sorry, but there is some confusion in the Chamber. An amendment is being put while the Minister has not yet introduced the Bill. Everything seems a little confused. I therefore call on you for some order in connection with what is on the Table. The Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill is on the Table, while another Bill is being approved. The Minister should have made an introductory speech. I therefore call on the Minister to say something about the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill, because it seems to me the hon member has suggested some amendments. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: If Mr Ackermann had consulted with his Whips - and I also indicated this to him in a meeting yesterday - he would have been aware of the fact that there were not going to be statements or debate on this particular matter. This is by consensus by all political parties in this House. I think it is proper that, in future, Mr Ackermann should consult with his Whip, unless there are difficulties of a personal nature between him and Mr Van Niekerk.

Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, I do not think the Chief Whip knows what is going on in this debate. If he will concentrate on the debate, he will know what is going on. I know exactly what is going on in the debate, but the Chief Whip does not know what is going on in the debate.

Die Nuwe NP sal hierdie wetgewing aanvaar, maar ons wil ons teleurstelling uitspreek oor die feit dat die ANC nie gehoor gegee het aan versoeke van tradisionele leiers om op ‘n meer aanvaarbare wyse wesenlike inspraak in plaaslike owerhede in hul eie gebied te hê nie. Die erkenning van die Minister se departement in die media dat hy nie die vrese van tradisionele leiers bevredigend gehanteer het nie, is ‘n duidelike bewys dat die ANC nie die belange van tradisionele leiers op die hart dra nie.

Die Regering erken dat hy reeds geruime tyd van tradisionele leiers se ontevredenheid bewus was en die vraag ontstaan dus waarom daar nou eers dringend en spoedeisend gereageer word. Dis niks anders nie as ‘n bewys van ‘n vrot en onsimpatieke Regering en ‘n poging om tradisionele leiers ‘n rat voor die oë te draai met lippediens.

Die Nuwe NP het destyds ‘n beroep op die Regering gedoen om die geïdentifiseerde en wettige tradisionele leiers se gebiede as plaaslike owerhede af te baken eerder as om dit te versnipper. Die Nuwe NP het verder ook ‘n beroep op die Regering gedoen om tradisionele leiers inspraak en stemreg in plaaslike rade sowel as in hierdie Raad te gee.

Deur sy halstarrigheid het die ANC weer eens bewys dat hy ‘n party is net vir sommige ``comrades’’ en elite arbeidsleiers. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The New NP will accept this legislation, but we want to express our disappointment about the fact that the ANC has not responded to requests of traditional leaders to have a material say in local governments in their own areas in a more acceptable way. The admission of the Minister’s department in the media that he has not dealt with the fears of traditional leaders in a satisfactory way clearly proves that the ANC does not have the interests of traditional leaders at heart.

The Government admits that it has been aware of the dissatisfaction of traditional leaders for some time now, and the question therefore arises as to why only now it is treating this as a matter of the utmost urgency. All this proves is that the Government is useless and unsympathetic and is trying to mislead the traditional leaders by paying lip service to this matter.

The New NP appealed to the Government at that stage to demarcate the areas of identified and legitimate traditional leaders as local authorities rather than fragmenting them. The New NP also requested the Government to give traditional leaders a say and a vote in local councils as well as in this Council.

The ANC’s stubbornness has once again proved that it is a party only for certain comrades and elite labour leaders.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson and the Council, the IFP supports the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill, but not the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill because the traditional leaders are still negotiating this Bill. Therefore the IFP cannot support the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill, but only the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill.

Me C BOTHA: Mnr die Voorsitter, agb Minister en lede, die DP steun die wysigings soos aangebring aan die Wysigingswetsontwerp op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Strukture en aangesien daar ‘n bietjie verwarring is, wil ek sê ons steun al die genoemde wysigings wat die afgelope maand voor ons gedien het. Die wysigings verwyder die onsekerheid en verwarring met betrekking tot die interpretasie van die toepaslike onderafdelings van die Wet soos in sy huidige vorm en veral met verwysing na die allerbelangrike wysiging van artikel 84 van Wet 117 van 1998, naamlik die duidelike omskrywing van die funksies en bevoegdhede van distriksmunisipaliteite.

Daar is ook nou duidelikheid oor die fokus van geïntegreerde ontwikkelingsprogramme deurdat die oorhoofse beplanning duidelik in die distriksmunisipaliteit gesetel is. Die wysiging van artikel 81 van Wet 117 maak voorsiening vir 20% verteenwoordiging vir tradisionele leiers in munisipale rade waar hulle voorheen op slegs 10% verteenwoordiging geregtig was.

Die DP sien met groot belangstelling daarna uit om te hoor watter wysigings volgende aan die wetgewing oor munisipale strukture aangebring sal moet word ná vandeesweek se samesprekings tussen die Regering en die tradisionele leiers.

Die DP steun intussen die huidige wysigings. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Ms C BOTHA: Mr Chairman, hon Minister and members, the DP supports the amendments to the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill, and since there is some confusion, I want to say that we support all the relevant amendments that we have dealt with over the past month.

The amendments eliminate the uncertainty and confusion with regard to the interpretation of the applicable subsections of the Act in its present form, and particularly with reference to the vital amendment of section 84 of Act 117 of 1998, namely the clear definition of the functions and powers of district municipalities.

There is now also clarity on the focus of integrated development programmes because overhead planning clearly vests in the district municipality. The amendment of section 81 of Act 117 provides for 20% representation for traditional leaders in municipal councils whereas they were formally entitled to only 10% representation.

The DP is waiting with bated breath to hear what further amendments will have to be effected to the legislation on municipal structures after this week’s discussions between the Government and the traditional leaders. In the meantime the DP supports the present amendments.]

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).

                       TOURISM AMENDMENT BILL

           (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon.)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, may I ask for a very short adjournment. The hon the Minister is on his way. We had inconvenienced the Minister as a result of giving preference to the previous orders, with the result that he just had to deal with some matters of an urgent nature, but he is on his way. That is the indication that we have received.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! On the directive of the Chief Whip of the Council we will adjourn for five minutes.

Business suspended at 16:40 and resumed at 16:43.

The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Chairperson, may I apologise for not being here on time. It is simply because of the change in the schedule. I am sorry about that. I should have been here.

What we have before us here is the Tourism Amendment Bill, which essentially deals with the regulation of the tour guiding system. Before I speak on the Bill itself, may I just say, as an introductory remark, that the quality of the tour guides that we have in this country, or that any country has, impacts substantially on the growth, or otherwise, of the tourism industry.

Large numbers of international visitors, particularly, depend on tour guides in order to be able to experience the country in an adequate and full manner so to speak. I therefore, think that we should not underestimate the value and importance of tour guides to the tourism industry and to the economy as a whole.

This is an area, I must say, which not everybody easily considers as a career option. We are hoping that with the introduction of this particular Bill we will be able to take a number of steps in order to ensure that particularly people from disadvantaged communities, young people and schoolchildren, will begin to consider this as a serious career option, as it is considered in various other parts of the world.

This Bill seeks to lay the foundation for developing a socially, environmentally and culturally responsible tourist guiding sector, and will enable the removal of historical barriers to entry into the tourism industry, while at the same time developing a guiding sector that will enhance the international competitiveness of our tourism offering. The Bill constitutes a bold step towards transformation of the tourism industry in line with the White Paper on tourism. This object informs the regulatory framework review that we are conducting in parallel with this legislative process. It is these regulations that will help us measure the success of the law we want to enact.

We have now placed on the agenda of all players in the tourism industry the question of industry transformation in the form of a framework document which is being finalised by my department. The underlying principles of that policy framework are the creation of opportunities for access, entrepreneurial development, and employment for the disadvantaged persons and communities. The frontier of delivery on this promise cannot be pushed out any further, as those whom we hope will benefit through this Bill remain on the periphery of the tourism industry and its benefits as we speak.

While the Bill focuses primarily on tourist guiding, the impact thereof goes far beyond this sector of the tourism industry. In essence the Bill has much relevance to our efforts to create jobs, increase tourism to South Africa and position the country as a competitive destination. It is therefore in this context that we seek the NCOP’s approval of this Bill.

The Bill further seeks to ensure quality tourism experiences for visitors and travellers in South Africa. To this end, the Bill locates tourist guide training and qualification within the new paradigm established by the Skills Development Act, and the South African Qualifications Authority Act under the custodianship of the Tourism and Hospitality Education and Training Authority, the so-called Theta.

This will contribute significantly to the quality of guiding services in the country, and lower barriers to entry, as the new training regime will recognise indigenous knowledge, as well as previous learning and experience. You will recall that we have just sent a group of 40 protégés to Germany for intensive training in the field of tour guiding, which was made easy by the Theta’s involvement.

Transferring the oversight function to the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, and decentralising the administration of the guide registration function to provinces, will ensure accessibility to tourist guiding and allow for better marketing of South Africa as a tourism destination. A decentralised system brings the means of entering the industry closer to the people, and ensures a better dissemination of information about tourist guiding.

Also, speedy implementation of the new system will enhance Satour’s ability to focus on its core function, that is the marketing of South Africa as a prime tourism destination. We thus need to put the new system into operation as soon as possible by moving speedily on the approval of the Tourism Amendment Bill.

I am sure hon members will agree that we are now not only going to be able to effectively discourage illegal and fly-by-night tour guides, but that we will create a window of opportunity to provide support to those who need it most. Further, the Bill will serve as an important instrument in moving the industry as a whole in the right direction, creating a firm basis for the performance of the function by the appropriate actors with specific targets on focused areas.

A number of provinces during our discussions, particularly in the Minmec, have raised the question of finances, and whether this will place an undue burden on provinces as far as financial implications are concerned. May I just say here that Satour has indicated that to the extent that it would have budgeted for the tour guiding function, which is currently with Satour, those funds would be transferred to the department, whereafter the department would be able to transfer those on a pro rata basis.

That, of course, would be for the remainder of this particular financial year. I am not certain whether these would be substantial amounts as such. The important thing about locating this function with either the national department or the provincial departments - in this case it is located both with national and provincial departments - would be for all of us to apply our minds to finding a way in which the industry can pay for itself.

The tour guiding system services the industry, and in most countries of the world this is a function that pays for itself. For example, a registration fee for tour guides would be a source of income which could be used for this particular purpose. Secondly, those enterprises within the industry that need to interact with tour guides and provinces themselves may need to find a way in which they themselves register so as to make sure that sufficient funds do come in.

This is an area which all provinces would certainly, in their own interests, have to promote and attend to in as rigorous a manner as possible. At the end of the day, a tour guide tends to be province- specific. If one wants well-trained, highly knowledgeable tour guides, one cannot simply rely on people that have a general knowledge of locations in South Africa, but would rather seek out people who have a specific, in- depth knowledge about particular provinces. I think those provinces that have adequate and better tour guides will, at the end of the day, make themselves more competitive as well. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, special delegates, permanent delegates, members of the select committee, the Tourism Amendment Bill has its origin in the White Paper on tourism and, more specifically, in the tourist guide policy which was prepared and issued by the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism in 1999. It seeks to regulate the tourist guide profession by requiring the registration of tourist guides, and that these guides abide by a code of conduct and ethics.

To understand the purpose of this Bill, it is important to bear in mind that the tourist guide is the most intimate point of contact with foreign and domestic tourists. The tourist guide’s conduct will therefore, to a large extent, determine whether a tourist returns or not.

Furthermore, given the expansion of the tourism industry, caused by its transformation, it is likely that the demand for tourist guides will continue to rise. It is essential, therefore, that the Government puts in place a mechanism through which it can monitor the quality of service provided by the growing number of tourist guides.

The Bill envisages a critical role for provinces in this process. This is necessary, given the critically important role played by provinces in the development and promotion of the tourism industry in South Africa. It gives the MEC responsible for tourism in each province the power to appoint an officer in the province to act as a provincial registrar of tourist guides.

The provincial registrar will be responsible for the registration of all tourist guides in the province and the maintenance of a register for this purpose; the issuing of registration certificates and badges to tourist guides who have complied with the registration procedure; the promotion and development of the tourist guiding sector in the respective provinces; dealing with complaints; the withdrawal of the registration of tourist guides who have become disqualified to act as tourist guides; and the exercise of disciplinary powers in respect of tourist guides.

The provision made in the Bill for the participation of provincial governments in the registration of tourist guides and in the preparation of a code of conduct and ethics with which all tourist guides must comply, should therefore be welcomed.

The competence referred to in the proposed new section 21A(2) includes not only qualifications, but also unit standards. Subsection (3) deals with exclusions. No one who has failed to go through a validation programme will be registered as a guide. The validation is specifically aimed at people who are currently acting as guides. They will have two years in which to go through the process.

Registration will only have to be renewed every two years. There will be a fee involved, as the Minister has said, on renewal. However, one will not necessarily be tested again. The initial validation test would essentially be a once-off thing to move people from the old system into the new one. In the new system, when one renews registration, what will be required is proof of what one has been doing in the intervening years in terms of tours and training.

The proposed section 21(B) deals with competence, and refers to the South African Qualifications Authority Act, which falls outside the department’s jurisdiction. Linking tourist guiding with the above Act ensures that there will be nationally recognised qualifications so that people can receive credit for the training they have gone through.

It also enables tour operators who train guides to access funds from the skills levy. If their trainees go through a programme that is registered on the National Qualifications Framework, this will encourage operators to take on guides as learners or apprentices.

With these words we support this Bill. We hope that it will, indeed, bring about transformation, and that those disadvantaged tour guides who were not skilled as such, but skilled in their line of action, will also be given an opportunity to participate in the entire industry. [Applause.]

Mev A M VERSVELD: Mnr die Voorsitter, die DP is ‘n voorstaander van die devolusie van mag, en daarom sal ons hierdie wetgewing steun, want dit beteken dat toerisme nader gebring word aan die mense en gemeenskappe wat voorheen nie deel was van hierdie bedryf nie. Sodoende kan sekere streke se kultuurhistoriese aspekte maksimaal ontwikkel en benut word.

Daar is egter ‘n bekommernis by ons, en dit is die feit dat die funksie afgewentel word sonder die nodige finansiering. Ek het nou geluister na wat die Minister sê, maar ek sal aan die einde van my toespraak daarna verwys. Die vraag ontstaan nou watter proses gevolg word om seker te maak dat die provinsies die kapasiteit - wat ook beteken finansiering - en die mannekrag het om hierdie wetgewing, wat alle goeie doel voor oë het, in werking te stel.

Hierdie gaping kan slegs gevul word met ‘n oorgangsfasiliteit wat saam met die wetgewing in werking gestel word om die provinsies by te staan. Die finansiering indien enige - ek verneem nou dat Satoer ‘n bydrae gaan maak - blyk slegs in die aanvangstadium te wees, met die verskoning dat dit ‘n geld-genererende funksie is. Terselfdertyd is hierdie funksie egter ook ontwikkelend van aard aangesien dit gekoppel is om ekonomiese groei te stimuleer, vaardighede en entrepreneurskap te ontwikkel en die breë gemeenskap te betrek. Om te kan ontwikkel, benodig ‘n mens fondse - soos die spreekwoord lui, ``money makes money.’’

Aangesien Satoer nou sy eintlike funksie kan verrig om Suid-Afrika beter in die buiteland te bemark en sy funksie van die registrasie van toergidse na die provinsies kan afwentel, behoort daar ook meer fondse beskikbaar te wees, en nie net in die aanvangstadium van Satoer se rojale begroting nie. Satoer behoort te kapitaliseer op wat reeds bereik is. Dit gaan nie net oor die besteding van geld nie, maar ook oor die beste aanwending van geld.

Ek kan vir agb lede ‘n voorbeeld gee. In 1998 is die MTN Whale Route bekroon met British Airways se Tourism Destination for Tomorrow Award, wat ‘n baie gesogte toekenning is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs A M VERSVELD: Mr Chairperson, the DP is in favour of the devolution of power, and for that reason we shall support this legislation, because it means that tourism will be brought closer to the people and communities who were previously not part of this industry. In this way it will be possible for the cultural-history aspects of certain regions to be developed and utilised to the maximum.

However, we are worried about the fact that the function is being devolved without the necessary financing. I have listened to what the Minister has said, but I shall refer to this at the end of my speech. The question now arises as to what process is being followed to ensure that the provinces have the capacity - which also means financing - and the manpower to implement this legislation, which has good objectives.

The gap can only be bridged by means of a transitional facility which is implemented together with the legislation to assist the provinces. The financing, if any - I have been informed that Satour is going to make a contribution - is apparently being provided only in the initial stage, the excuse being that this is a money-generating function. However, this function is simultaneously also of a developmental nature as it is linked to the stimulation of economic growth, the development of skills and private enterprise and the involvement of the general community. In order to be able to develop one needs funds - as the saying goes, ``money makes money’’. Since Satour can now perform its actual function of a better marketing South Africa more successfully abroad and can devolve its function of registering tour guides to the provinces, more funds should also be available, and not only in the initial stage of Satour’s lavish budget. Satour ought to capitalise on what has already been achieved. What is at issue is not the spending of money, but the best utilisation of money.

I can give hon members an example. In 1998 the MTN Whale Route received British Airways’ Tourism for Tomorrow Award, which is a very prestigious award.]

Whale watching is the fastest-growing ecotourism product in the world. In 1999, 7 million people went out on boat-based whale watching and 3 million on land-based whale watching.

Dit bring ons by ‘n totaal van 10 miljoen mense. [This brings us to a total of 10 million people.]

We have the best land-based whale watching in the world at Hermanus. Satour has not risen to the occasion because nothing spectacular has happened, if we compare this award with the case of a little town named Kaikoura in New Zealand, which won this award two or three years ago. In this small town of indigenous Maori fishermen, their hotels have increased from none to four and their businesses have increased from three to thirty. Today this town is on an internationally recognised whale watching destination, thanks to the support of the New Zealand tourism authorities.

As dit daar gedoen kan word, kan Satoer dit ook hier vir ons doen met al die fondse wat hulle beskikbaar het.

Ten slotte wil ek net sê dit is teleurstellend dat ons politici in die gekose komitee so min standpunt ingeneem het vir hulle provinsies, ook veral as ek luister na wat die Minister gesê het, naamlik dat daar by al die provinsies die vrees was om hierdie wetgewing in werking te stel sonder die nodige fondse, want sover my kennis strek, is dit net die Wes-Kaap wat daarteen beswaar gemaak het. Die provinsies is tog sekerlik die rede waarom ons in die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies is, en ek wil die Minister versoek om asseblief weer te kyk na die finansiering van provinsies. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[If this can be done there, Satour can do the same for us here with all the funds they have at their disposal.

In conclusion, I just want to say is that it is disappointing that our politicians in the select committee did not make much of a stand for their provinces, especially in view of what the Minister has said, namely that all the provinces were afraid to implement this legislation without the necessary funds, because as far as I know, only the Western Cape objected to it. Surely the provinces are the reason why we are members of the National Council of Provinces, and I want to request the Minister please to take another look at the financing of provinces.]

Mr K PANDAY (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, the Tourism Amendment Bill seeks to amend the Tourism Act so as to introduce a radically redesigned tourist guiding system for South Africa. I will be speaking not on the technical nature of the Bill, but on the spirit of the Bill.

In the conclusion of the document outlining the tourist guiding policy, the following is stated, and I quote:

The Bill goes a long way in ensuring that tourism becomes a big industry that benefits all South Africans especially the previously excluded and disadvantaged people.

Tour guides, who are given prominence in the Bill, have to become professionally qualified with the knowledge of areas which have been neglected in the dark years of apartheid. The KwaZulu-Natal province wants to experience an unprecedented boom in the tourism industry. Having read an article in last weekend’s Sunday Times, I am more than excited and I share the sentiment that KwaZulu-Natal has the potential of becoming a tourist Mecca. I could safely say that this also holds true for the rest of South Africa.

Tourism KZN is focusing its attention on the Emakhosini Valley near Ulundi, better known as the Valley of the Kings, described by the distinguished author and humanitarian Alan Paton as the most beautiful part of South Africa. It is in this area that the great King Shaka was born and it is here that his father, Senzangakhona, lies buried. Many other noteworthy Zulu leaders who contributed to the richness of the Zulu nation and its heritage, such as the amakhosi Zulu, lie buried in this valley. Since royalty is invariably a drawcard, publicity campaigns capitalise on this by working with the Zulu royal house and by using the slogan, ``Wozani

• our Kingdom calls.’’ Mr Robbie Naidoo, the corporate affairs manager of tourism in KZN, says, and I quote: ``Unfortunately, we have an image problem overseas. South Africa came out tops as a holiday destination.’’ Mr Naidoo also mentions that we are totally out of depth with service delivery. In KZN the Service Excellence Campaign is being initiated, in which service providers are being asked to go the extra mile. The rest of South Africa should follow suit.

In South Africa we have a proud history, despite the workings of the monstrous government of the past, in that our cultures and traditions are steeped in richness, but this is not tapped to its optimum. We have a very lucrative challenge on our hands. Tourism contributes almost R7 billion to the KZN provincial budget each year and one foreign visitor creates eight jobs nationally. KwaZulu-Natal gets 30% of international tourists and 42% of the domestic market, so the potential for growth is immense.

The British used the Cape as a halfway house to India. Without any doubt I say KwaZulu-Natal offers a permanent house to all visitors from throughout the world. KwaZulu-Natal supports the Tourism Amendment Bill. [Applause.]

Mrs T Z SEBEKEDI (North West): Chairperson, I commend the department for this piece of legislation, which will contribute to the development of an internationally competitive tourism industry in South Africa. The Minister has correctly said that there are provinces that had problems with this Bill because of its financial implications, and the North West is one of those provinces. Even if the Minister has allayed our fears, I would still like to voice them in this House, because I am still not satisfied. We have a lot of previously disadvantaged people whom we will have to train to see to it that this project becomes viable.

I hope that when the Minister says that those funds from Satour will be divided accordingly, he means it, or else we should be told or encouraged to see how we should access funds other than those from Satour that the Minister is referring to.

It is correctly said in this Bill that this function was run by Satour and is now being devolved to provinces, and we have this saying that funds should always follow functions. I am worried that the funds we will need will not be only for tourist guides, but also for the staff in the registrar’s office. The Minister may be getting the staff from Satour, but where will we in the province be getting the staff from? We still have that doubt, and we are still not satisfied that this Bill will address this issue that is so close to our hearts.

We would like to promote tourist guides from our far-flung rural areas, because our people know everything about our rich history of the Anglo-Boer War, but because they are not trained as tourist guides they cannot explain it to the tourists properly. We want to take this seriously, but we need more funds for this to be successful. We support this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr J P GELDERBLOM (Western Cape): Chairperson, the province regards tourist guiding as a facet of tourism with a potential to contribute to greater community involvement and economic growth. We believe that tourist guiding has an ability to draw previously marginalised communities into the mainstream of the tourism industry. Devolving the tourist guide functions to provinces should not be viewed as a separate aspect, but should be integrated within broader economic and human resource development strategies. It is important for national Government to carefully examine practical and factual issues connected with the devolving of the tourist guiding functions.

The Western Cape strongly supports the main aim of the Bill, which is to redesign the tourist guide system in South Africa in order to develop opportunities to experience and promote pride in the cultural resources, histories and voices of the people of South Africa, and believes that this will result in the development of opportunities for all people to experience the wealth, assets and attractions of tourism. The Western Cape takes cognisance of the enabling element within the Bill, which is the most important aspect and which relates to broadening access to and entry into the tourism industry.

The Bill proposes that tourist guide functions be devolved to provinces. It calls for the provincial Minister responsible for tourism to designate an officer to act as provincial registrar of tourist guides. The officer concerned would be responsible for registering provincial guides, setting up standards and monitoring complaints. The status quo reflects that more than 40% of registered tourist guides are from the Western Cape, which is equal to 2 499 guides. To renew licences, an amount of R60 is paid annually. The current figures indicate that the province stands a chance of generating R149 940 per annum in undertaking the function.

Since the highest number of tourist guides are concentrated in the Western Cape, the province will have to appoint a provincial registrar and an administration officer to effectively undertake the function. The existing system which is currently used by Satour would be transferred to provinces and there would be a need to purchase new computer hardware to execute the function. Undertaking the function would mean additional administrative functions for the province, which might sometimes involve the handling of appeals.

Ons het ook bekommernisse. Die wetsontwerp maak nie voorsiening vir oorgangsmaatreëls ten opsigte van die oordrag van die funksies na provinsies nie. Dit maak nie voorsiening vir die registrasie van seisoenale gidse nie, waarvan die meeste in die Wes-Kaap gebaseer is. Daar is tans geen duidelikheid oor die huidige kostes deur Satoer oorgedra aan die provinsies nie, en ek glo daarna sal gekyk moet word.

Die Wes-Kaap het ook ‘n probleem met die afwenteling van die funksie, maar nie met die gepaardgaande oordrag van sodanige fondse nie. Dit is voorheen ook al hier genoem, en ek glo fondse moet die funksie volg wanneer dit afgewentel word. Die aangeleentheid was ook al, soos agb lede weet, in die Minmec ter sprake. ‘n Voorstel gebaseer op bogenoemde is aan die departement gedoen om langtermynoplossings te ondersoek en provinsiale en mediumtermyn-bestedingsraamwerktoekennings aan te pas om moontlik die funksies te akkommodeer.

Die Wes-Kaap begryp die belang van toerismeleiding in die sektor. Die Wes- Kaap verwelkom die voorgestelde aanbevelings aangesien dit die provinsie in staat sal stel om ‘n provinsiale toergidsontwikkelingsprogram te vestig om toergidse op te lei en te registreer in ooreenstemming met nasionale toergidsregulasies. Die Wes-Kaap glo dat die aangeleentheid ten opsigte van die fondse wel nog verder opgeklaar moet word. Dit moet gedoen word voordat die wetsontwerp goedgekeur word, en moet gekommunikeer word aan alle provinsies wat hierby ‘n belang het. Ek wil afsluit deur namens die provinsie te sê dit was lekker om die Minister weer hier in die Huis te sien. Ons weet as hy nog Minister vir Provinsiale en Plaaslike Regering was, sou die verkiesingsdatum teen hierdie tyd seker al klaar aangekondig gewees het! [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[We also have some concerns. The Bill does not make provision for interim measures with regard to the transfer of functions to provinces. It does not make provision for the registration of seasonal guides, most of whom are based in the Western Cape. There is no clarity at present about the current costs transferred by Satour to the provinces, and I believe that must be attended to.

The Western Cape also has a problem with the devolution of the function, but not with the accompanying transfer of such funds. This has been mentioned here before, and I believe that funds should follow the function once it has been devolved. As hon members know, this matter has already been discussed at Minmec. A proposal based on the above-mentioned has been made to the department to investigate long-term solutions and to adjust provincial and medium-term expenditure framework allocations to possibly accommodate the functions.

The Western Cape comprehends the importance of tourism leadership in the sector. The Western Cape welcomes the proposed recommendations since this will enable the province to establish a provincial tour guide development programme to train and register tour guides in accordance with national tour guide regulations. The Western Cape believes that the matter with regard to the funds does require further clarification. This should be done before the Bill is approved and must be communicated to all provinces having an interest in this matter.

I would like to conclude by saying, on behalf of the province, that it was good to see the hon the Minister here in the House again. We know that if he were still Minister for Provincial and Local Government, the election date would by this time already have been announced! [Interjections.]]

Dr E A CONROY: Mnr die Voorsitter, Minister Moosa en kollegas, die toerismebedryf is die belangrikste sleutel tot die ekonomiese en maatskaplike ontwikkeling van verskeie provinsies in Suid-Afrika. As die rol wat toerisme in die opheffing van Suid-Afrika kan speel nog nie tot ons deurgedring het nie, sal ons baie vinnig moet wakkerskrik. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Dr E A CONROY: Mr Chairperson, Minister Moosa and colleagues, the tourism industry is the most important key to the economic and social development of various provinces in South Africa. If the role that tourism can play in the upliftment of South Africa has not yet filtered through to us, we will have to wake up very quickly.]

It seems, however, that the South African tourism industry and its regulating bodies are very much aware of the actual and potential value that tourism has for this country, otherwise we would not have debated a very important piece of legislation today which is designed to regulate and control the tourist guiding system.

The Bill is designed to develop a socially, environmentally and culturally responsible tourism sector which, in turn, must contribute to the development of an internationally competitive tourism industry in South Africa. The end result of this Bill should and must be that tourist guides will be qualified, that they will have the necessary competence and that they will underwrite and comply with a code of conduct and ethics. The New NP therefore supports this Bill.

Daar is egter ‘n ander faktor wat ook tot die aantreklikheid van ons toerismebedryf kan bydra of daaraan kan afbreuk doen. Dit is naamlik die netheid en skoonheid van die omgewing waarin die toeris hom bevind. Ek haal die volgende aan uit gister se briewekolom in ‘n Afrikaanse dagblad:

Die afgelope 20 jaar is Kaapstad ons gunsteling vakansieplek. Dit was altyd ‘n vreugde om deur die Tuine te stap, maar wat ‘n teleurstelling vanjaar! Die pragtige wandellaan is vuil, vol papiere, plastieksakke en gemors. Die pragtige Tuine is oorgroei met onkruid en van blomme is daar skaars sprake. Op pad na ons hotel het ‘n buitelandse toeristegroep ons tegemoet gestap. Die gids het vol entoesiasme die pragtige geboue uitgewys, maar ek kon die afkeer op een van die mense se gesigte sien toe hy na die verwaarlosing om hom staar, en ek het skaam gekry.

Ons moet besef dat ‘n uiterste poging aangewend moet word en dat topprioriteitstatus daaraan geheg moet word om ons land en die omgewing skoon, netjies en aantreklik te hou, anders is ons net besig om ‘n reeds bestaande bate te verwaarloos en te verinneweer. Kaapstad, Pretoria, Durban en Johannesburg hoef nie miljoene te bestee om nuwe toeriste-aantreklikhede te skep nie; hulle hoef slegs wat ons reeds in oorvloed het in stand te hou en vir die toeris aantreklik en aangenaam te maak. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die Minister van Omgewingsake en Toerisme se planne om Suid-Afrika se sogenaamde nuwe nasionale blom, naamlik die plastieksak, met wortel en tak uit te roei kan daarom ook net met entoesiasme gesteun word. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[However, there is another factor which could also either contribute to the appeal of our tourism industry or could be detrimental to it. This is the neatness and beauty of the environment in which the tourist finds himself. I quote the following from a letters column in an Afrikaans newspaper of yesterday:

Die afgelope 20 jaar is Kaapstad ons gunsteling vakansieplek. Dit was altyd ‘n vreugde om deur die Tuine te stap, maar wat ‘n teleurstelling vanjaar! Die pragtige wandellaan is vuil, vol papiere, plastieksakke en gemors. Die pragtige Tuine is oorgroei met onkruid en van blomme is daar skaars sprake. Op pad na ons hotel het ‘n buitelandse toeristegroep ons tegemoet gestap. Die gids het vol entoesiasme die pragtige geboue uitgewys, maar ek kon die afkeer op een van die mense se gesigte sien toe hy na die verwaarlosing om hom staar, en ek het skaam gekry.

We have to realise that an extreme effort must be made, and that top priority status must be attached to keeping our country and environment clean, neat and attractive, otherwise we are only neglecting and ruining an already existing asset. Cape Town, Pretoria, Durban and Johannesburg do not have to spend millions to create new tourist attractions; they only have to maintain what we already have in abundance to make these places attractive and pleasant for the tourist. [Interjections.]

The plans of the hon the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to eradicate the new national flower, namely the plastic bag, can therefore be supported with enthusiasm. [Interjections.]]

Chief M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, the good thing you may do is a drop in the ocean, but the ocean would be less if that drop were missing. That is why when tourists visit any country they want to know and see places of interest, or places of national importance. They want to know the history of each and every place they are taken to.

This Bill creates a climate conducive to tourist guides being formally recognised by the Government. They are the people who are expected to market our country to tourists, people who are not going to distort the history of this country. As members are aware, people and rubber bands have one thing in common - they must be stretched to be effective. [Laughter.]

It is therefore imperative to have tourist guides who will effectively put our country on the map. We have had tourist guides before, some trained others not, some registered others not, some, regardless of their knowledge, capability, capacity and skill, not properly graded, whilst others were graded Why? It was simply because of the colour of their skin. As Government we are saying: If things go wrong, do not go with them. Hence, with this piece of legislation all criteria used to sideline or disadvantage tourist guides will cease to exist. If one does not want one’s dream to come true, it is easy; one just has to oversleep. [Laughter.]

There will now be a National Registrar of Tourist Guides who will maintain a central database of all tourist guides. The National Registrar of Tourist Guides will also hear appeals lodged by tourist guides.

This Bill also establishes provincial registrars of tourist guides. These officials will register all tourist guides in their respective provinces and take all the necessary steps to ensure the smooth running of this industry. It is pleasing to know that companies or institutions which are involved in tourism will, from now on, be closely monitored.

There are some companies and institutions that deliberately do not want tourists to know the true facts about our country. They do not take tourists to places of national importance situated in rural areas and they rarely use tourist guides from disadvantaged communities. They use people who know very little about our country.

To give a practical example, we met tourists from Brussels who told us that when they first visited our country in 1990, they were told that the only thing they could learn about the Northern Province was witchcraft. The guides could not tell them about the Soutpansberg, where one gets natural salt. They could not tell them about TshipiseTsha Shagole in the far north, where one finds not only warm water, but natural hot water, from the fountain. Neither could they tell them about Maphukubje or the Chuene, nor the Debegeni Falls and many other places of interest. The only things the tourist guides could tell those tourists about the Northern Province was how people in that province excelled in witchcraft. [Laughter.]

Hence, as Government, we are saying that a team will outperform a group of dishonest individuals every time. Those same tourists were also told that the only things one could learn about some rural areas in KwaZulu-Natal were political violence and faction fighting. They could not tell them about the Isandlwana battlefields or about Kwadukuza, where Shaka’s grave is. Life is not a dress rehearsal. It is not the sugar that makes the tea sweet, but the stirring. [Laughter.]

This industry will now be well co-ordinated, regulated, and monitored. Tourist guides will now be trained, registered and recognised for who they are. It will also be expected of them to adhere to the code of conduct drawn up by the National Registrar of Tourist Guides. If it is found that a particular tourist guide has violated any of the regulations in this Act, corrective measures or disciplinary action will be taken against him or her.

This will be done to protect the image and integrity of this country and to make sure that our tourists are well looked after and protected. It will now be an offence for anyone to act as a tourist guide if he or she is not registered.

I would like to thank the hon the Minister and his department for coming up with this excellent piece of legislation. I want to say to the hon the Minister that he is one of the few leaders who lead by example. No matter what the size of the bottle, the cream will always come to the top. [Laughter.] [Applause.] The hon the Minister is one of those wise leaders who inspires and motivates rather than intimidates and manipulates. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs S WEINBERG (Gauteng): Chairperson, hon Minister, members, the economy is often characterised as an engine, and I would like to characterise tourism as a motive force in that engine.

Economic statistics have it that tourism constitutes approximately 10% of the world’s economy and about 6% of South Africa’s. Some 66% of all foreign visitors stop over in Gauteng province. The value of this market is estimated at over R6 billion per year and the domestic tourism market further contributes approximately R30 billion per year.

If one returns to the characterisation of the engine and examines more closely the tourism component, one will see that currently the major part of this economic activity remains in the formal sector.

For instance, Gauteng achieved 51% of the country’s share of tourism and leisure investment between 1994 and 1998 and 16% of the growth in hotel accommodation. This is all very wonderful and great for the economy at large. However, how does this affect our people? What is the impact on the poorest of the poor? What is the impact on the previously disadvantaged communities and individuals? Yes, the economy at large does have a trickle- down impact on these communities, but the Tourism Amendment Bill will have a direct impact on these individuals and communities.

To return again to the engine analogy, if the economy is the engine and tourism the motive force, then tourist guides are an indispensible cog in that engine, albeit a small cog with the ability to gear up the engine to stronger and stronger power. Bringing the regulation of tourist guides down to the provincial level allows a more hands-on transformation of the industry.

The Gauteng tourism authority has already appointed a registrar of tourist guides, in terms of our own legislation, who started work this month. Of course, we shall apply to the Minister now that we know that funds are available.

We will be able to control recruitment, training and marketing of tourist guides from previously disadvantaged areas. For instance, last week we launched a tourist route in Alexandra township, arguably one of the most disadvantaged areas in our province, particularly as it is found cheek by jowl with arguably one of the richest areas in our province, Sandton.

We also presented certificates to 12 newly qualified tourist guides in Alex. To take these 12 individuals as an example of what is possible, they are able to describe the microeconomy of Alex and Sandton and to show tourists a well-researched route which includes the house where former President Mandela lived when he first came to Johannesburg.

By bringing tourists into Alex, these SA tourist guides will encourage the spending of tourist dollars there. Already there are people opening restaurants and backpackers’ venues and other people are working hard at developing crafts such as pottery and beadwork so as to encourage the same spending.

Obviously this has a direct economic benefit to the people of Alex. This in turn will have an effect on the morale of the residents, to such an extent that crime will decrease and pride will grow in their environment so that people will start to clean up the streets and the plastic bags and Alex will become a better place in which to live.

I am saying that not only does tourism gear up the economy, but this legislation, the Tourism Amendment Bill, will go a long way towards the social transformation of our country. We will move away from apartheid divisions, where blacks remain in their townships and whites stay in wealthy suburbs and never the twain shall meet.

The Tourism Amendment Bill will encourage internal tourism, in terms of which tour guides will take groups of people, whether they be groups of adults, groups of elderly people, church groups, social clubs, or scholars in groups from schools, and show them life on the other side of the line.

I would like to emphasise the nation-building potential of such exercises. People will come to understand the other side of life in South Africa, and contribute to a mutual understanding. Hence will come a reduction in the fear of one another, and from there will flow a willingness to work together for the betterment of all the people of the land.

Gauteng supports this Bill. [Applause.] Rev M CHABAKU: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, special delegates and hon members of this Council, the Free State legislature has approved the proposed amendments which define both provincial and national registrars, as required by section 21(1) of Act 72 of 1993, as amended by section 1 of Act 105 of 1996. The province approves the registration of tourist guides nationally after competence for registration has been effected. The Bill recognises the awarding of certificates after a person’s knowledge has been adequately assessed.

Even before the NP came into power in 1948, we had racial and sexist imbalances, which are now compensated for in this Bill, and potential is provided for growth and development for these individuals in terms of the objectives of the said Bill. The codes of conduct and ethics required for the efficiency of tourist guides will apply to all related to the task, as they seek to inform, guide and protect tourists in terms of accepted standards.

The tourist guide is also protected by the Bill, just as much as the tourist, should the Bill be contravened, be it by the tourist guide or the tourist. The tourist guide is free to seek an adviser’s assistance when complaints are lodged against him or her or even when against the tourist.

We commend the Minister for tabling guidelines on how complaints need to be lodged and given attendance. The same goes for the reviews of appeals and disputes. The purpose of the proposed amendment is to secure a smooth execution of the tasks assigned to the mutual benefit of the tourist, the tourist guide and the stakeholders. This seeks to reduce the need for summary dismissals and seeks to retain cordial working relationships to enhance the tourist industry. It is recommended that women of all age groups be especially encouraged to be recruited to ensure that women can obtain equal opportunity of employment, operation and promotion, just as we seek to provide the ethnic balances displayed in our demographics.

We propose that special encouragement be given to intercity and interprovince ventures, and also to our neighbouring independent countries, rather than always looking overseas.

The Free State, therefore, recommends and approves this Bill as presented to hon members by the Minister. ``Haak, Vrystaat!’’ [Go, Free State!] [Applause.] Ms B THOMSON: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the tourism industry has always been one of the greatest assets of our country, more especially of KwaZulu-Natal. With the transformation of the industry, and the realisation of the immense tourism potential of previously neglected areas, tourism is set to play an even greater role in the economic development of our province.

For this reason it is imperative that any legislation dealing with tourism should ensure an adequate role for the provincial government and for local government. We, therefore, welcome the devolution of certain powers to the MEC for tourism in the provinces in terms of this Bill.

The powers given to the MEC will enable the provincial government to properly regulate the appointment and registration of tourist guides. These powers are very important, because tourist guides play an important role in the tourist industry. They are the ones who interact most closely with the tourist, and, in many cases, they determine the quality of assistance provided to both foreign and local tourists. If they treat tourists in an unsatisfactory manner this may reflect negatively on the province’s tourism industry, and may prevent tourists from going to that particular province. The MEC will play an important role, because he or she will have a direct say in the preparation and publication of a code of conduct and in the ethics with which all registered tourist guides will have to comply.

There is one aspect of the Bill, though, that we think could have been elaborated upon more, that is, the role of local government in this process. Members are aware that in terms of the Constitution, local government also has a say in local tourism matters. The Bill does not specify any role for local government, and this may cause some problems in the implementation of the Bill later on. However, this is not an insurmountable problem, as the provincial tourism authorities have, as a matter of course, taken on board the views of local government in all tourism matters affecting the province.

The ANC in KwaZulu-Natal wishes to register its support for the Tourism Amendment Bill, because it will bring about much greater organisation to the tourism industry, and will ensure that the level of service provided to the tourist will compare favourably to international tourism standards. [Applause.] The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Chairperson, may I, at the outset, thank all the members who participated in the debate for their valuable comments, generally, that have been made. Let me also express my gratitude to Rev Moatshe and his committee for the manner in which this Bill was processed, and for bringing to our attention some of the feelings of the provinces on this matter.

A number of speakers have spoken about matters that do not relate directly to the Bill. I will also then take the liberty of going with the flow and speaking about matters that have nothing to do with the Bill. However, I will come back to that in a moment.

I want to just reply to some of the matters that were raised. I think the hon Versveld is quite off the mark on the question of whale watching and the interests of Satour in this particular area. I think frankly that she is quite wrong.

One of the important steps that we have taken recently is to market ourselves in terms of wildlife not just as a Big Five destination, but as a Big Six destination, because South Africa is one of the few places in the world where you can engage in land-based whale-watching. Walker Bay and most of the Southern Cape, right up to the Eastern Cape, provide land-based whale-watching opportunities, which is quite unique.

That is one of the reasons why, if the hon Versveld had been in communication with members of her own party, she would have known that Mr Colin Eglin, a member of the National Assembly, has been rather active in promoting the declaration of a whale sanctuary in Walker Bay. This is something which I have taken up. We have jointly visited the area, etc. Maybe the hon Versveld is not in tune with all those developments and she was just speaking out of ignorance. So I should try not to be too harsh on her.

I think a number of speakers, including the hon Sebekedi, usefully raised the question of whether this was an unfunded mandate, and how provinces were going to deal with this particular matter.

Let me just say something on this matter. In the first place, one must understand that the kind of system we have, the kind of intergovernmental financial system regulated by the Constitution, really does not make it possible for me or for anybody to give an assurance to this House that over the years provinces will, somehow, get money from the fiscus for this sort of matter. It is not possible to do that kind of thing because, when Parliament allocates money to provinces, it does not say how provinces should use that money. Provinces adopt their own budgets in their provincial legislatures, and it is the right of the provincial legislature to do so. Nobody can take that right away.

Of course, one can say that among the factors that are taken into account, tourism development should be one. But one should remember that it is the Constitution that stipulates the criteria that the Financial and Fiscal Commission, the national Treasury and Parliament have to take into account when voting and deciding on the Budget as such. So it is not such an easy matter to simply give an assurance on and say this is what is going to happen.

The second point I would like to make is that it is not as though the national Government or anybody has, even now, been budgeting huge sums of money which it is now going to save and not use because the function is going to provinces. That is not the case. This has really been a very, very low-budget activity.

Nonetheless, I have said that perhaps provinces may incur some start-up costs, firstly, and that is something we should look at. It is not going to be easy, but I will, particularly as a result of this debate, personally engage in consultations with Satour to see how we can assist provinces with their start-up costs, because there will be some start-up costs before the revenue starts coming in through the registration of tour guides and such things. That may help to some extent.

The third point I would like to make is again one that the hon Sebekedi made, an important point about training. That is, who is going to pay for the training of tour guides? This is an important area. Now here the Tourism and Hospitality Education and Training Authority, which is a recognised statutory body as such, is the body responsible for training, and it is a national institution. It is responsible for training because it sets the standards and qualification and makes sure that there is proper career pathing for tour guides. The qualifications Act also comes into play here. That body has prioritised training in the tourism industry, not just tour guiding. The Business Trust has voted an amount of R80 million towards learnerships and training programmes to be administered by the Theta. Through the training levy, the Department of Labour has added R30 million to that. So there is an amount of R110 million, I think, if I am right - I am not always so sure of the figures, but the chief director is nodding - which will be used over three years for training in the tourism sector. This is a substantial amount of money. It is one of the most ambitious education and training and learnership programmes that we are going to be embarking upon.

We want to use a part of this amount in upgrading the skills of existing tour guides because, as the hon Mokoena said, some tour guides actually do not know what it is that they are going to talk about. Some people have been trained to say that there are four provinces in South Africa, the Cape of Good Hope and Transvaal and so on, those sorts of things. They read in the newspapers that there are now nine provinces, but they have not been trained with regard to why there are nine provinces, what the provinces are, that provinces have elected legislatures, how a premier gets elected, what the political parties are, etc. Even existing tour guides need some amount of refresher training, which we hope to provide, as well as training for new guides.

Again, the hon Mokoena has said that some people may know a lot about a certain area, but may not have a BA degree as such, and are able to tell one much more than anybody with a BA degree from Wits University would about a particular area, indigenous plants, uses of plants, and such things. Those people may only require some additional training to become registered tour guides because, already, the essence is there.

So those funds will be used, and I can tell hon members that they are substantial funds. We do not expect provinces to dip into their own budgets for that sort of training. So we will make sure that we follow that up and we will be committed to it. I will ask the department to look into and ensure that the Theta also covers the training of tour guides. I think that is what I could say in response here.

The hon Conroy has raised the question of litter, which, as hon members know, is a matter that continues to be of concern to me personally, and, I think, to all of us. It is a very serious problem. I was in Singapore last week on some official business. I do not know if the hon MEC Jomo Khasu knows about this matter, but if one takes chewing gum in one’s bag into Singapore, one can get arrested. They do not allow the chewing of chewing gum because people stick the gum under the table and under the chair when nobody is looking. [Interjections.]

We do not want to be as harsh as that, but, certainly, I think that this is a matter we must attend to. Singapore is a very clean city, one does not see any cigarette butts, paper or anything in the street that messes it up. So it is possible to clean things up, even in our own country.

Let us take, for instance, Messina. Messina was one of the dirtiest towns in the whole country. Now it is one of the cleanest towns in the whole country. The mayor of the town personally took it upon himself and said that if there was one thing he was going to do, he was going to clean up that town. He has cleaned it up and has received recognition throughout the country for having cleaned up the town. The town is so important because large numbers of visitors come into the country through Beit Bridge and the first thing they saw was rubbish heaps. Now the mayor has cleaned up the town. If one takes a town such as Douglas in the Northern Cape, which is, again, a very small town, the people there had a huge gathering at a sports stadium where they decided that they were going to stop the use of plastic bags there. They did it on their own, they did not wait for legislation or anything.

If one goes to a shop in Douglas one will not get a plastic bag. The publicity association went to all the shopkeepers, asking for their co- operation. They went to schools to speak to schoolchildren about why plastic bags are bad, what that means, etc, so that everybody understood, through a process of education and in a real grass-roots way. So it is possible to do these sorts of things.

This is a matter that I raised with the Chief Whip of the NCOP, but perhaps I raised it too informally. Maybe I should formally request the NCOP to assist us with this antilitter work. I really think that the NCOP can help us. I am not sure how, but I think if hon members here think about it, I am sure this House will give valuable suggestions. The hon members say we should start here. The important question is: What is the waste management system in the parliamentary precincts? Does Parliament separate its waste? Does it send glass and paper, at least, for recycling, or does it just dump them there?

More importantly, I think we should involve the provinces and local governments, because without provinces and local governments we are not going to get anywhere. Hon members may want to organise a special debate or work out some sort of programme of action, but I would really urge them to assist us in this regard.

The hon Dr Conroy spoke about the plastic bag issue. We have now received comments on the draft regulations. The period for the comments is over and the department is now digesting all of the comments that have been received. Once we have considered all the comments we will finalise and publish the final regulations as such, and I hope to be able to do it by early next year.

It is not going to be easy, because there are people who, for their own selfish reasons, would want to oppose our prohibition on plastic bags, and they have said all sorts of things. Some of these people have said that a lot of people will lose their jobs, but hon members should know that these plastic bags, these throwaway carrier bags, are not really made in a labour- intensive process. They are made by machines, just by the tens of thousands, so it is not very labour-intensive.

If we do not use the plastic bags, then whatever other packaging we use will create more jobs. Already we have people who are sewing cloth bags, like here in the Cape where the Methodist women have come together and are now running a project. It is creating some employment for people and alternative sorts of jobs.

Then they have asked what about those people, particularly poor women, who are using the plastic bags to make artefacts, things like hats and mats. I think that is an easy problem to solve. All we need to do is supply plastic, probably in an easier way in the form of rolls of plastic. That is something that can be done for people to do that sort of thing. One does not need plastic bags. One needs to find a way of supplying the plastic, new clean plastic, to do that sort of thing, because in any case it is quite a hassle for people to be using plastic bags.

Some of the retail outlets, I have no doubt, will also try to oppose this sort of thing. However, I am pleased that although it is not a matter directly related to this Bill, hon members have used the opportunity to once again restate their support, and I think we need to do that kind of thing. One of the big retail outlets said to me that in terms of their customer base they are in direct contact with so many million people on an annual basis, so many million people go through their retail outlets throughout the country, and that they can speak to all these people about the disadvantages of prohibiting plastic bags, so lots of people are going to oppose me. So one can see the veiled sort of threat that comes in. However, I hope we will follow that up at some point in time.

We continue to develop new and more exciting tourism products, and let me just say to hon members here that in a few weeks’ time we will be having what I think is called a coastal week - we have so many special weeks. It will be a very exciting week concerning the management of the coast. [Interjections.] It might be called maritime or marine week. Part of what we are going to be doing is cleaning up areas of the coast, which also happened during the cleanup week that we had. However, during that week we will also be launching a very exciting tourism product, because we have looked at one of the competitive advantages that we have in tourism, for us to enjoy and for the world to enjoy, namely the various hiking trails that we have around the country. We have also looked at how other countries market their hiking trails.

We have a 3 000 km coastline and we will be launching, during that week, in a few weeks’ time, a hiking trail that starts at Kosi Bay and ends at the Orange River mouth, covering the 3 000 km coastline. It will be quite a unique hiking trail worldwide as it passes two oceans, the Indian Ocean and the Atlantic Ocean, taking one through very diverse ecological areas throughout its length. We already have a team of volunteers who will start off by hiking that entire trail. It is not the sort of thing which everybody would do, but I know people like my chairperson of the select committee, Rev Moatshe, who is a keen hiker. I am sure that pretty soon he will take the initiative of leading a team of prominent citizens on that particular hike. Once again, thank you very much for the debate. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Thank you, hon Minister. Maybe, with your permission, I should just call three or four people to order who were chewing Chappies in this Chamber, so that we start from here and implement this immediately. [Laughter.] I saw them. [Interjections.] Name them? No, I will pardon them for today.

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                          MEAT SAFETY BILL

           (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order!

Just before we proceed, can I ask all of you just to check on your cellphones to see if they are indeed off. Let us make sure our cellphones are off.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to commend to the Council the Meat Safety Bill which is before the House. I do regard this as quite an important Bill. The factors which normally drive agricultural policy in most of the countries of the world, and specifically in South Africa, are all present in this Bill before us, and perhaps one could look at them to get the broader context within which this Bill is functioning.

Firstly, in a country like South Africa we have a special driving factor and that is, of course, transformation and with it land reform, and transformational aspects are present in this Bill. The second factor which drives agricultural policy and legislation like this is, of course, internal budgetary pressures. Agricultural budgets all over the world, and even more so in South Africa, are under extreme budgetary pressure at the moment. The third factor I would like to mention is the challenges of growth in all sectors of agriculture, and also in this regard this Bill, we hope, will be positive for agricultural growth.

Another factor is the influence of agricultural globalism, with reference to the commitments and rules which we have under the World Trade Organisation. That is of extreme importance with regard to meat production, because of the sanitary and phytosanitary measures in that regard. Let me just mention the one that we all know about, and that is the factor of pressure from farming sectors and communities and their lobbies which have an influence on agricultural policy. But the one which is of the utmost importance, which perhaps is the basic driving force of this Bill before us, is the growing pressure from consumer groups and environmental groups over, firstly, the safety of food and, secondly, the sustainability of present agricultural patterns. That is the one which I would like to address in most of what I am going to say this evening.

What we have in this Bill is a group of measures which seek to promote meat safety and the safety of animal products. Of course, animal products are those obtained from the carcass, other than the meat, as defined in the Bill. The measures are there to establish and maintain essential national standards with regard to meat and other animal products and to regulate the importation and exportation, and to establish meat safety schemes.

We believe that the main object of the Bill, which is why this Bill comes before members as a section 76 Bill, is to protect consumers in so far as the consumption of meat is concerned. That is why it is called the Meat Safety Bill. In order to accomplish this, the Bill also seeks to establish and maintain essential national standards in respect of abattoirs. Consumer protection is a functional area of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence, as listed in Schedule 4 of the Constitution, as members know. That is why we deal with it in terms of the procedure described by section 76. Abattoirs, as hon members know, are listed in Schedule 5 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Members, please converse softly.

The DEPUTY MINISTER: Chairperson, with regard especially to the international standards that have to be maintained and the general common economic market in South Africa, we have to maintain essential national standards, and that is why we are here before the members.

Consumer protection is the main aim, as I was saying. In terms of section 27 of the Constitution of South Africa, everyone has the right to have access to sufficient food''.Sufficient food’’ is definitely more than enough food, because it includes enough food. However, ``sufficient food’’ also has a qualitative aspect to it. Mostly that is about the objects for which the food is being used, and that is for human health. In that regard, we have a constitutional imperative to see to it, from the side of the state, that this right to safe food is being exercised. Throughout much of the world, an increasing number of consumers and most governments are becoming aware of food quality and safety issues, and are realising the need to be selective about the foods people eat. It is now common for consumers to demand that governments take legislative action to ensure that only safe food of acceptable quality is sold, and that the risk of food- borne health hazards is minimised.

In other words, no one can deny that food is a very important item on political agendas all over the world. It is there - an entity on the political agendas. In fact, governments are extremely conscious of the political consequences which they may expect if they fail to heed consumers’ concerns regarding the food they eat. In other words, universally, there is an acknowledgement of the right that people have of expecting that the food they eat is safe, and is of a good quality and suitable for consumption. In actual fact, in terms of the United Nations guidelines of 1985 on consumer protection, governments should take into account the needs of all consumers for food security.

We all know how bad it becomes when something goes wrong with food. For example, I have recently had experience of this because I was involved in the decision on whether to lift the ban on imports of British beef to South Africa. If one thinks about what happened in Britain, where almost 90 people died and millions of pounds worth of cattle had to be destroyed, people all over the world are asking the question: What goes into the animal whose meat we are going to eat?

I must say that with the recent incidence of foot-and-mouth disease, which we are still experiencing, there were some averments which cannot be proven because it is extremely difficult to do so. But there were some deductions made to the effect that foot-and-mouth disease occurred in this country in KwaZulu-Natal because of some swill, that is, products left over from food and other refuse which came from ships and was fed to pigs. Whether that is true or not, the point of concern is this: Something was perhaps eaten by the pigs. People are very concerned, because this creates the public fear of whether they are really safe from what goes into the animals whose meat they are going to eat.

I must say I am convinced that in South Africa we must look at this position carefully. It does not help to say that we are a developing country, therefore we can let go. That is actually a racist statement because one is then saying that only people who are rich can afford safe food, by ensuring that they buy from an important place. I think we have a duty to look after the safety of all our people’s food, especially meat. The main thing is that we have to investigate what is happening. We have to look at, for example, growth hormones. They are not allowed in Europe and there is a big battle going on about them in America. Some antibiotics are used quite explicitly for accelerated growth and to prevent diseases.

Members will see, in the fine print of the Bill, that we talk about residues when we discuss meat safety. Those residues actually refer to what is left over. For example, if one has given medicine to an animal, the residue can be tested, and that will also play a role in the Bill.

In general, this whole subject of meat safety is only part of food health. I can tell the hon delegates that in South Africa we have to work towards a general national food safety agency. Regarding a food safety agency, we have mechanisms at present and this issue is being dealt with by the Department of Health and the Department of Agriculture. I must say there is good co-operation between the two departments. However, if one really wants to see that nothing goes wrong - and things can go terribly wrong if they go wrong, for example, are we really sure that milk is safe in this country and can our municipalities handle this - then we must start looking at the matter.

I am saying that, pertaining to consumers’ concerns regarding food and in this case meat safety, we think we can do something in close co-operation with provinces because this is an intergovernmental system. The provinces will implement the necessary steps through the very good system of intergovernmental relations created by this Bill. I think that we are going to have a system in which the consumers’ concerns will be addressed.

What has happened in the world is that more and more information about food- related matters has become available. There was a time when people were only concerned about the visibles, such as whether food is underweight, whether the contents are correct, size variations, misleading labelling and poor quality. But now the consumers are concerned about the invisibles: the health hazards that cannot be seen, smelt or tasted, such as micro- organisms, pesticide residues, environmental contaminants and food additives.

Both nationally and internationally there is growing pressure on governments to protect all our communities from poor-quality and hazardous foods. I think that what this Meat Safety Bill is going to do is to make it impossible for people who live in impoverished areas to be mistreated through some hazardous meat being off-loaded in their areas. I feel very strongly about this. There is no way that people can regard some areas as places where one can get rid of meat in an uncontrolled fashion.

When we embarked on the deregulation of agriculture in South Africa, it went very quickly. Some people have the impression that the deregulation of the market is now a situation of lawlessness. That is a completely wrong impression. We must send the message that that is not going to happen in South Africa. There is no way that the state’s role and duty of care for controlling what must be controlled, regulating what must be regulated, will not be done. It is true that we are under budgetary constraints. But the day that one cannot export ostrich meat any more because one does not have enough veterinarians to check every ostrich that is slaughtered, one will be losing money by not putting money there. Sometimes one must spend money to make money. That is the way we are going to do it. We must build a lot.

We are not going to allow people to bring in things, for example swill from a ship, where one must have a permit from the Department of Agriculture and when such an item should have been destroyed in terms of environmental legislation. We are not going to allow that type of a thing. I want to send a strong message about that. The state is going to do its duty, as far as we are capable of doing it. We are going to strengthen veterinary science and veterinary practices in this country. We have to do that. We cannot allow things to just go down.

Because it is late in the evening, I will, perhaps, go into more detail about the Bill after the members have spoken and given an indication of what areas of the Bill are of special concern to them. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, special delegates from provinces and hon members, two years ago, Cape Town meat merchants were at the centre of a health row after imported kangaroo meat, which had been blamed for a number of cases of bacterial disease in Australia, had gone on sale in the city. Last year, about 500 children who were due to take part in the opening of the All Africa Games in Johannesburg fell ill with food poisoning. Doctors blamed the food poisoning on bad meat that was served at afternoon rehearsals. Last month, some farmers in KwaZulu-Natal were faced with serious problems when foot-and-mouth disease was identified among their livestock.

On 8 April 1993 the European Union banned imports of livestock, meat, milk and dairy products from 18 Central and Eastern European countries after cases of foot-and-mouth disease were reported in northern Italy. The Italians claimed that the disease was found in cattle shipped from the former Soviet Union through either Slovenia or Croatia. Under European law, if proof exists that a country has livestock that is infected with foot-and- mouth disease, import barriers can legally keep those animals from spreading their disease to the importing countries. These are just some of the reported incidents that show the risks to which consumers are exposed if there are no proper checks of the quality of meat products available for public consumption.

Since many people afflicted with food-borne illnesses assume that they have flu and do not visit the doctor, cases of meat-related illnesses tend to be underreported. The available information on such illnesses therefore represents only a fraction of the total number that occur. The fact that meat-related illnesses are underreported does not mean that the problem is not serious. Although estimates as to the prevalence and growth of illnesses attributable to unsafe meat in South Africa are difficult to assess, we cannot deny the fact that it is a reality. It is a reality experienced mostly by poor and marginalised people with lowered immunity due to HIV/Aids, pregnant women and their foetuses, young children, the elderly, the homeless, farmworkers and others of low socioeconomic status. The effects suffered by these marginalised groups can range from relatively minor discomfort to more serious symptoms and manifestations such as fever, diarrhoea, dehydration and even death.

In addition to the human suffering caused by unsafe meat and food-borne diseases, substantial economic costs are involved. They affect both tourism and trade. Already, some countries have placed a ban on the import of South African meat products after the recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in KwaZulu-Natal. This places an enormous financial burden on farmers who breed livestock for export purposes. It also reduces state income which is derived from the export of those meat products. It further places an enormous burden on the country’s health care system through increased hospitalisation costs. This does not even take into account the total social and medical burden placed on society by the chronic and often lifelong consequences of unsafe meat and food-borne illnesses.

Our own system for identifying and preventing illnesses resulting from unsafe meat is found in the Abattoir Hygiene Act. This Act proved to be inadequate to properly identify, track and prevent meat-related illnesses and to prevent future cases from occurring. Its primary focus was on measures aimed at promoting the hygienic slaughter of animals in abattoirs, with very little emphasis on the safety of the end products leaving the abattoirs and destined for public consumption.

This approach is primitive, compared to the international trends which are aimed at making sure that best management practices are used through every step of meat processing, from inspection of livestock before slaughter, right to the end product leaving the processing plant.

The international approach is based on the hazard analysis and critical control points standards which were developed by the American space agency, Nasa, to ensure the safety of food prepared for astronauts.

Its focus is on ensuring that food contamination risks are avoided in the processing plant and that those steps are documented. It requires meat processors to examine their procedures, determine which procedures have the potential to contaminate meat, and then explain in detail how they avoid contamination at those points.

The Meat Safety Bill seeks to achieve a similar objective. It envisages the appointment of a national executive officer who will be entrusted with the monitoring of essential national standards which will apply to all abattoirs.

These national standards provide for, among others things, the keeping of records relating to the examination and inspection of animals prior to and after slaughter; the fact that meat may only be removed from abattoirs if it is duly marked and the method of removal poses no risk to the public; the detection and monitoring of any specified substances and residues in meat products, in accordance with prescribed methods; and the fact that the abattoir must be managed in accordance with a prescribed hygiene management and evaluation system.

I respectfully submit that the Meat Safety Bill will bring our own practices in line with the international approach and will ensure that our people enjoy a healthy way of life. For this reason, the ANC wishes to add its voice in support of this Bill. [Applause.]

Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, the ANC in the province of the Eastern Cape unconditionally supports this monumental piece of legislation which seeks to resolve disparities between meat safety standards for urban and more affluent areas with expensive abattoirs, on the one hand, and those for rural and poor communities in which such facilities do not exist, on the other hand.

The current Act, the Abattoir Hygiene Act of 1992, has a rigid and selective approach which makes access to service difficult for the majority and impossible for the rural communities of South Africa.

The Bill wants to do away with considerations of cost as a determining factor in obtaining safe meat, cost which was used as a tool to compromise poorer communities in their health and wellbeing because they could not afford to pay for these services.

The injustice of the past made us ignorant with regard to meat inspection, more especially in rural areas.

Babesakuthi abantu basezilalini xa kuxhelwe inkomo okanye igusha bakuthabathe oko ngathi baqinisekile ukuba loo nyama ayinazintsholongwane, bayitye. Kodwa eyona nto yayiba ngumnqa kukuba babesakuthi xa inkomo okanye igusha ithe yazifela, indlela ababeyivavanya ngayo ukuba ilungele ukutyiwa yayikukuba bathabathe igaqa lenyama baliphosele inja. Ibiya kuthi ke ukuba loo nja ithe ayafa baqiniseke ukuba inyama leyo ingatyiwa. Kodwa ke ukuba ithe inja leyo yafa, babesazi ukuba basengozini. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[In the rural villages, when a cow or sheep was slaughtered, it used to be assumed that its hygienic status was good, that is, it was safe for people to eat the meat. But what is amazing is that if that animal’s cause of death was unknown, to ensure that it was safe for human consumption, a piece would be thrown to a dog. If the dog did not drop dead, people would be sure that it was safe for them to eat the meat. But if the dog died, they would know that to eat the meat would be a risk and, therefore, pose danger to their lives.]

This Bill addresses the imbalance of expensive abattoirs by shifting the focus to the safety of the end product, rather than costly structures which are only accessible to deeper pockets. All consumers, urban and rural, rich and poor, will benefit in view of the fact that meat for consumption could affect human and animal health. One of the measures introduced by this Bill, which is welcomed by our rural communities, is that an opportunity will exist for abattoirs to be set up as small businesses, and will be able to provide a more user-friendly system. Most of the big abattoirs are in metropolitan areas, which results in a serious shortage of proper slaughtering facilities in rural areas.

Undoubtedly, this accommodates the needs of our diverse society and stimulates a collective commitment to establish a culture of hygiene and meat safety awareness, as the Bill is trying to establish a meat safety concept rather than just abattoir hygiene, as is currently the case.

One of the important principles proposed in the Bill is the provision for the assignment to agencies and nongovernmental organisations of meat inspection services. The advantage of using agencies outside Government is that the state will be able to perform its statutory functions by harnessing capacity in the meat industry for the implementation of legislation, without having to expand the public services, and it will also help to prevent the utilisation of scarce resources within the state to deliver services that can be delivered just as efficiently by nongovernmental organisations.

Due to the lack of formally qualified persons and the fact that meat inspectors are not available throughout the country, especially in rural areas, this Bill makes provision for duly qualified and authorised persons to perform functions in terms of this Bill.

This could be utilised as an opportunity to train persons with the necessary potential to perform such functions, especially in areas with shortages of qualified persons. [Applause.]

Mr M J KHASU (North West): Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and the House, thank you for the warm welcome.

Allow me to add that the introduction of the Meat Safety Bill is yet another development in the extension of opportunities for the broader South African community to understand the importance and implications of their actions in the handling of food in general, and meat in particular.

The existing legislation, in the form of the Abattoir Hygiene Act of 1992, restricts itself to measures which could never have allowed the general populace to develop a culture of optimal hygienic standards in the handling of meat.

The fact that we have become international participants in the global trade market requires vigilance of the kind that will not make it difficult for us to answer questions which may arise as a result of meat which might be contaminated, either inside the country or coming from outside the borders of our country. Incidents of animal sickness and failure or success in handling these can make or break the country’s international trade opportunities.

We have numerous examples of animal sicknesses which would have a direct or indirect association with the subject of our discussion today. Mad cow disease in Britain is one recent case in point. In our own country, as we are speaking today, the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease has caused a panic, both locally and internationally.

Despite the informed and professional advice that the disease did not or would not be transmitted between animals and human beings, our local traders and consumers did not believe us. Measures such as quarantine and even the culling of animals in affected areas did not allay the anxieties of some of our neighbours in the region. We are, however, happy that the situation in KwaZulu-Natal was successfully contained and did not spill over into other areas of the province, or other provinces for that matter.

We are already enjoying the dividends of our measures with Namibia’s lifting of the bans on our export of meat and meat products so affected. We must thank the provincial department under MEC Singh for their tireless work, the national department for their guidance and leadership and the farmers who sacrificed their animals to save the nation. The implications of not handling, or of being perceived not to be handling, one’s food or food products safely go beyond trade matters. As a meat safety ban suggests, health risks can become real if appropriate precautionary measures are ignored.

The existing legislation’s narrow focus on abattoirs and its costly insistence on infrastructure of a certain type do not necessarily translate into concomitant health outcomes. The introduction of this legislation is not just about animals, but also about the prevention of meat-related diseases among humans, thus contributing to the overall health system of our country.

This Bill has wide-ranging and positive implications for environmental management and protection. The appointment, purpose and choice of provincial executive officers are testimony to this, in that these persons will be knowledgeable in public health matters. This will come in handy in the hygienic management of establishments, animals and the environment. It also addresses the handling of animal wastes in a new way, in a completely different way from the current legislation. Certain hardships experienced under the current arrangements are addressed by this Bill. Some of the hardships and possible solutions in this Bill are, firstly, the introduction of schemes for the promotion of communal slaughter facilities, and secondly, the granting of exemptions by the Minister to abattoirs and slaughter facilities and to categories and groups of persons and owners.

In conclusion, and coming to the specifics about the North West province’s concerns, I wish to report that the province has no substantive or principled objection to the Bill save for the detail around clause 23, which assigns or delegates powers to the provincial executive officers. According to the province, more detail should have been given with regard to assignment of powers to members of the executive council in a province for the latter to have necessary powers over the executive officers. We trust that that clarity will either be made or will emerge in the end, or that provision will be made to cater for the concern in other ways. This is intended to tighten … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon MEC, you have less than a minute to complete your speech.

Mr M J KHASU: I was going to speak for less than five seconds more. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Do so, hon MEC.

Mr M J KHASU: This is intended to strengthen the principle of accountability on the part of the provincial executive.

All in all, consumer protection as a human right is extended to cover food, or meat specifically, in the introduction of this legislation. Our duty of care as a state is thus advanced. The benefits deriving from this Bill are indeed enormous. This places its desirability beyond question and deserves support. The North West province supports the passing of this Bill. [Applause.]

Me A ROSSOUW: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit is vir my ‘n besondere voorreg om vandag aan hierdie debat te kan deelneem, juis in die tyd dat ons so bewus geword het van bek-en-klou-seer, en ek wil graag ook namens ons hier in die Wes-Kaap die agb Adjunkminister en minister Didiza bedank vir die wonderlike wyse waarop hulle die aansien van Suid-Afrika in die landbou spesifiek bevorder het met die wyse waarop hulle hierdie hele bek-en-klou- seeraangeleentheid gehanteer het.

Ons glo dit sal binnekort heeltemal onder beheer wees, maar ons harte gaan uit na daardie boere wat geweldige skade gely het, en dit het ‘n mens se hart geroer om te sien hoe hulle werklik gehuil het toe hulle moes toesien dat hulle vee geslag word. Ons wil die Adjunkminister en die departement en elke veearts bedank wat daar hulle bydrae gelewer het.

Die Adjunkminister het weer eens in sy toespraak die belangrikheid daarvan genoem dat ons genoeg veeartse in Suid-Afrika moet hê, want daar was alreeds kommer dat ons staatsveeartse besig is om minder te word, en ons wil hom bedank daarvoor dat hy en die Ministerie die belangrikheid daarvan insien, want in ‘n landbouland soos Suid-Afrika kan ons dit nie bekostig om nie genoeg veeartse te hê nie. Ons wil hom bedank daarvoor.

Vleis, hetsy dit rooivleis, wildsvleis, witvleis of enige ander tipe vleis soos konyne, perde, of wat ook al is, is vir ons ‘n belangrike bron van voedsel in Suid-Afrika. Vleis is egter ook ‘n draer van siektes soos ons nou in menige toespraak gehoor het, en dit kan ernstige siektes aan die mensdom oordra. Die ondersoek van slagdiere voor en tydens ons slagproses is gevolglik noodsaaklik om te verseker dat slegs gesonde diere geslag word, en wel op ‘n menslike wyse, sodat die vleis en ander vleisprodukte heilsaam sal wees vir die publiek en sonder besoedeling aan hulle voorsien sal word.

Daarom is dit van die uiterste belang dat daar ‘n higiënestandaard en riglyne om dit te handhaaf aan ‘n slagfasiliteit en die personeel gestel word wat tydens die slagting en verwerking van die produkte diens doen. Dit is ook noodsaaklik dat riglyne in wetgewing vervat moet word ten opsigte van die geboue en toerusting wat in hierdie slagproses gebruik word.

Die Wes-Kaap beskik tans oor 98 geregistreerde abattoirs wat gegradeer is volgens die aantal diere wat per dag geslag kan word. Hierdie abattoirs is ongelooflik duur en hoogs gesofistikeerd, en is opgerig volgens Wet 121 van

1. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Ms A ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, it is an exceptional privilege for me to take part in this debate today, precisely at the time that we have become so aware of foot-and-mouth disease, and I would also, on behalf of us here in the Western Cape, like to thank the hon the Deputy Minister and Minister Didiza for the wonderful manner in which they specifically promoted the prestige of South Africa in agriculture with the way in which they handled this entire foot-and-mouth disease issue.

We believe that it will shortly be completely under control, but our hearts go out to those farmers who suffered tremendous losses, and it moved one to see them actually crying when they had to watch their cattle being slaughtered. We want to thank the Deputy Minister and the department and each and every veterinary surgeon who made a contribution there.

The Deputy Minister once again in his speech mentioned the importance of our having an adequate number of veterinary surgeons in South Africa, because there has already been concern that our state veterinary surgeons are declining in number, and we want to thank him and the Ministry for realising the importance of this, because in an agricultural country like South Africa we cannot afford not to have enough veterinary surgeons. We want to thank him for that.

Meat, whether it is red meat, game, white meat or any other kind of meat such as rabbits, horses, or whatever, is an important source of food in South Africa. Meat is also a carrier of diseases, however, as we have now heard in many a speech, and it can transmit serious diseases to humans. Examination of slaughter animals before and during the slaughtering process is therefore essential to ensure that only healthy animals are slaughtered, and in fact in a humane manner, so that the meat and other products would be beneficial to the public and provided to them free of contamination.

That is why it is extremely important that slaughtering facilities and the personnel who are on duty during the slaughtering process should be subject to a standard of hygiene, and the guidelines to maintain it, during slaughtering and processing of the products. It is also essential that guidelines in respect of the buildings and equipment used in the slaughtering process should be entrenched in legislation.

The Western Cape at present has 98 registered abattoirs that are graded according to the number of animals that can be slaughtered per day. These abattoirs are unbelievably expensive and highly sophisticated, and erected in terms of Act 121 of 1992.]

The cost of these facilities and the management expected to be in place can only be achieved by larger municipalities. Animals for slaughter have to be transported long distances, which creates stress situations and the loss of meat due to injuries. This Bill aims to rectify these shortcomings by supporting a more holistic approach to meat safety. The affordability of meat hygiene services is addressed, bringing more entrepreneurs into the meat production chain. It also seeks to accommodate the needs of our diverse society and to stimulate a collective commitment to establishing a culture of hygiene and meat safety awareness.

Daar is ‘n toenemende neiging om vee op plase te slag en die vleis dan per voorafbestelling aan dorpenaars te voorsien. Die slagting vind plaas sonder enige inspeksie van diere vooraf of die inspeksie van vleis om siektetoestande op te spoor. Die slagting vind ook plaas in fasiliteite wat nie noodwendig beskik oor die noodsaaklike geriewe van skoon water en vloerspasie om besoedeling te voorkom nie. Dikwels is daar ook ‘n gebrek aan verkoeling van hierdie geslagte karkasse.

Die vervoer van vleis is heel dikwels ook sonder verkoeling. As boervrou sal ek nooit die eerste prentjie van my buurvrou op die plaas vergeet nie waar sy sommer daar onder die peperboom die vel van die skaap staan en afknie het. Dit is ‘n gebruik wat miskien meer dikwels nog op ons plase voorkom. Om hierdie ongesonde toestande die hoof te bied, asook dieselfde wantoestande van slagtings wat ook meer dikwels in ons informele woongebiede rondom ons groot stede geskied, is dit van die allergrootste belang dat ons kleiner abattoirs moet wettig om voorsiening te maak vir die nodige inspeksie en hierdie voorligtingsdiens. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[There is an increasing tendency to slaughter cattle on farms and to provide the people living in towns with meat that has been previously ordered. The slaughter takes place without any prior inspection of the animals or the meat to detect diseases in the meat. The slaughtering also takes place in conditions that do not necessarily have the required facilities of clean water and floor space to prevent contamination. There is often a lack of refrigeration of these slaughtered carcasses.

The transportation of meat very often also takes place without refrigeration. As a farming woman I will never forget the first picture of my neighbour on the farm, where she simply stood under the pepper tree, skinning the sheep. This is a custom that one perhaps still often encounters on our farms. To eliminate these unhealthy conditions, as well as similar slaughtering conditions that more often occur in our informal settlements around our large cities, it is of the utmost importance that we should legalise smaller abattoirs to provide for the necessary inspection and this extension service.]

The main objects of this Bill are to provide ways and means for the supplying of disease-free and healthy meat and meat products to all levels of the population, to protect personnel working on the facilities against bodily harm and infections, and to provide for the humane handling and slaughter of animals, as well as providing for minimum standards of quality and wholesomeness of fresh raw meat, processed meat and meat products for one’s own use and for sale to the public. But very important is also the training of abattoir owners and the managers and personnel of facilities, and all aspects of the maintenance of hygiene standards before, during and after the slaughter process. The Bill proposes to create a wider scope of responsibilities attached to the concept of meat safety, rather than just abattoir hygiene.

Die titel van hierdie wetsontwerp verwys daarom na die veiligheid van vleis teenoor die bestaande konsep van abattoirhigiëne. Veilige vleis sal dus almal in die produksieketting se verantwoordelikheid word en nie net die personeel van abattoirs s’n nie.

‘n Belangrike klemverskuiwing in die wetsontwerp teenoor die bestaande wetgewing is die voorsiening om private instansies te kan magtig om deel te hê aan die vleisinspeksieproses. Dit sal die staat in staat stel om sonder ekstra personeel op sy diensstaat ‘n meer volledige diens te lewer. Beamptes kan dus die belangrike moniteringswerk en wetstoepassing meer doeltreffend uitvoer sonder bykomstige indiensneming van personeel.

Daar sal nie ‘n uitbreiding van personeel of finansiële implikasies vir die provinsies wees nie aangesien die huidige infrastruktuur wel voldoende is. Daar word egter voorsien dat daar ‘n toename in beamptes nodig sal wees namate die aantal geregistreerde fasiliteite toeneem.

Die Wetsontwerp op die Veiligheid van Vleis maak voorsiening daarvoor om die beskikbaarheid van gesonde en heilsame vleis en vleisprodukte uit te brei na ‘n baie groter deel van ons gemeenskap. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The title of this Bill for that reason makes reference to the safety of meat as opposed to the existing concept of abattoir hygiene. Safe meat will therefore become the responsibility of everyone in the production chain and not only that of the abattoir personnel.

An important shift in emphasis in the Bill, in contrast to the existing legislation, is the provision of empowering private institutions to take part in the inspection process. This will enable the state to render a more complete service without extra personnel on its staff establishment. Officials can therefore perform the important monitoring work and law enforcement more effectively, without employing additional personnel.

There will be no expansion of staff or financial implications for the provinces as the present infrastructure is in fact adequate. It is expected, however, that an increase in officials will be required as the number of registered facilities increases.

The Meat Safety Bill provides for the extension of the availability of healthy and wholesome meat and meat products to a much larger section of our community.]

This Bill aims to do away with considerations of cost as a determining factor in obtaining safe meat. Proper meat-handling practices and the existence of hygiene awareness among all levels of the community are of cardinal importance for meat safety - not the consideration of cost. Safe meat must no longer be out of the reach of poorer people because of the lack of money.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Orde!

Jammer, dame, u tyd is verstreke. Tot volgende keer. [Order! Sorry, lady, your time has expired. Until next time.]

Ms A ROSSOUW (Western Cape): Baie dankie, mnr die Voorsitter, en die Wes- Kaap steun graag die wetsontwerp. [Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, and the Western Cape takes pleasure in supporting this Bill.

Me E C GOUWS: Mnr die Voorsitter en Minister, ek stem saam met biskop Tutu; ons het ‘n wonderlike land met ‘n wonderlike reënboognasie. Ons het ‘n nuwe demokrasie en daarom het ons definitief aanpassings nodig, ook in die Wetboek. Daar is nog ander verskille. Sommige van ons is baie, baie arm. Sommige woon in stede en groot getalle woon op die platteland, waar daar klaargekom moet word met die minimum geriewe, en dit verg groot ontberings.

Hierdie wetgewing waaroor dit vandag gaan, is nodig om ‘n regstelling te maak. Die klem word verskuif van vorm na inhoud, en ons steun dit heelhartig. In die verlede was daar baie klem op die oprigting van indrukwekkende, duur strukture vir die slag van diere. Hierdie wetsontwerp fokus meer op die prosesse wat ons nodig het om veilige vleis aan ons mense te verskaf. Dit is ‘n absolute noodsaaklikheid in ons land met sy diverse gemeenskappe.

Baie probeer om hulle karige inkomste aan te vul deur onder meer die slag en verkoop van vleis aan die publiek, soms met verreikende gesondheidsgevolge. Ons in die DP wil hierdie entrepreneurs al die geleenthede gee wat hulle lewenstandaarde kan verbeter. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [Ms E C GOUWS: Mr Chairperson and Minister, I agree with Bishop Tutu; we have a wonderful country with a wonderful rainbow nation. We have a new democracy and we therefore definitely need adjustments, also on the Statute Book. There are also other differences. Many of us are very, very poor. Some live in cities and large numbers live in the rural areas, where one must make do with the minimum facilities, and this leads to a great deal of hardship.

This legislation which is at issue today is necessary to bring about a correction. The emphasis is shifting from form to content, and we support this wholeheartedly. In the past there was a great deal of emphasis on the erection of impressive, expensive structures for the slaughtering of animals. This Bill focuses more on the processes which we need to provide safe meat to our people. This is absolutely essential in our country with its diverse communities.

Many try to supplement their meagre income, inter alia, by slaughtering and selling meat to the public, sometimes with far-reaching health consequences. We in the DP want to give these entrepreneurs all the opportunities which could improve their living standards.]

There is a clause in the Bill in terms of which, in the view of the Minister, an exemption may be granted in respect of certain areas, grades of abattoirs, owners or persons, in respect of certain kinds of animals, requiring only that the relevant MEC must be consulted.

The DP rejects this clause, and thinks it is a sweetheart clause for an all- too-powerful Government. It is of no consequences while the incumbent Minister or MECs are honourable and honest, but disastrous when the reverse proves to be the case. Bills and laws must protect us, not from the honest, but from the dishonest.

We all agree to the provisions in the Bill that must ensure public health. We are horrified at the thought that a disaster may befall us such as that in the UK, where insufficient control was exercised on the composition of animal feed. This led to the shameful outbreak of mad cow disease - shameful because animal feed containing diseased carcasses was fed to the animals. It is strongly suspected that the consumption of this product can lead to a fatal disease in human beings.

The crucial issue in the MCD saga was the lack of oversight and control. This will be the crucial issue in this and other laws. The mere publication of an Act does nothing to enforce it. The Government loves the phrases capacity'' andcapacity-building’’. The absence of both of these was what led to the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in KwaZulu-Natal. It now seems quite clear that the almost total breakdown of oversight and control over whatever happens to come from ships in harbours is what caused this outbreak.

The fact that we had legislation in place requiring the controlled destruction of such potentially dangerous products did not ensure that it was adhered to.

Ons in die DP is bekommerd oor die uitvoerbaarheid en die wil by die Regering om hierdie wetsontwerp te kan toepas. Ons sê weer, in die Wetboek het dit meriete, maar gaan ons sien dat dit toegepas word? Ons kan nie dobbel met ons mense se gesondheid en die skrikwekkende finansiële implikasies wat dit vir die land kan inhou nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[We in the DP are concerned about the practicability and the will of the Government to be able to implement this Bill. We say once again, on the Statute Book it has merit, but are we going to see it implemented? We cannot gamble with our people’s health and the alarming financial implications which this could have for the country.]

Mr P I MALEFANE (Gauteng): Chairperson, Deputy Minister and members, as Gauteng we support the principles and details of the Bill. We see the Bill as an important instrument in providing a holistic approach with regard to meat safety.

In Gauteng, we recently commissioned research pertaining to illegal slaughtering, which seems to be a problem as far as meat hygiene and safety are concerned. Our definition of illegal slaughtering basically refers to the slaughtering of an animal or animals outside the confines of an area designated for such a purpose, and where the process does not comply with stipulations regarding slaughtering as required by law.

Illegal slaughtering puts at variance the interests of environmentalists, health officials, animal rights groups, traditional healers, hunters and ordinary citizens at large, which are consequently at stake.

Speaking of illegal slaughtering immediately evokes in one’s mind issues related to poaching and the illegal trade in animal parts. The two represent a form of senseless slaughtering of animals.

Conservationists recently voiced concern over the illegal trade in rhino horns and ivory, as it led to the poaching of animals. Their contention was that this would result in the extinction of rare species and have long-term negative effects on the tourism industry as well as our economy. A moratorium was therefore agreed upon by neighbouring countries. Such trade should be considered illegal, since it leads to the gruesome treatment of animals.

Our research was therefore premised on the understanding that illegal slaughtering is still against the law. The location of abattoirs is still a contentious matter that has effects on the health and safety of communities.

The research revealed the concerns precipitated by illegal slaughtering, which has implications for the environment, health and the humane treatment of animals. These are some of the scenarios we wish to present.

In 1995 in Vereeniging, where residents experienced a scene of illegal slaughtering at a funeral, they were disgusted by the manner in which the animal was being killed, claiming that it was being beaten and hacked with clubs and axes. The SPCA arrived but had no stun gun to render the animal unconscious. The police were then called, but they refused to shoot the animal because in their opinion such a matter was culturally sensitive. Fortunately an old man passing by came to their rescue and killed the animal.

In 1994 a black family had just moved into what was formerly a white neighbourhood. It was immediately after the first democratic elections. They had to slaughter a cow for their cultural feast, but their white neighbours were up in arms against the slaughtering. The family concerned stated vociferously that this was a cultural practice and they were not going to stop it simply because they had moved into a previously white suburb. Police had to be called in to intervene and finally the local authority managed to settle the dispute.

With regard to a farmer who was slaughtering some of his cattle in his back yard to sell in the nearby informal settlement, we found that almost half of the residents had to be treated for unstoppable diarrhoea. Medical reports indicated that they were suffering from food poisoning.

Our support of the Bill is therefore based on it providing a framework to deal with the challenges of illegal slaughtering. The Bill does not prohibit slaughtering for cultural purposes nor restrict slaughtering outside abattoirs. However, it promotes safety through hygienic standards with regard to the end product of the slaughtered animal.

The last crucial point is that this Bill seeks to achieve the promotion of good management practices and the application of hazard analysis at critical control points at slaughter facilities in line with international trends.

As a province we are in the process of putting in place an abattoir rating scheme that will complement this Bill once it is law in order to ensure that those complying with the requirements of the law are incentivised and those in contravention are punished. This will make the law implementable, and not just a paper tiger.

Ha ke hle ke di pome, ke di etse mohatla’ kgwiti morena. Etswe le kgomo ha e nye boloko kaofela. [Ditlatse.] [I will stop here, because one cannot say it all. [Applause.]]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Agriculture Prof D C du Toit, hon MECs and colleagues, it is a pity that I am speaking in the place of a member who, due to sudden changes that occurred in the scheduling of the Speakers’ list, could not make himself available for this debate.

With regard to this important debate, I wish to stress the following, which must be strictly observed within the parameters of the Meat Safety Bill. Firstly, strict rules at all points of entry should be stipulated in order to avoid contaminated meat at all costs. Secondly, foot and mouth disease is a serious threat to the farming industry, hence safety measures have been taken by almost all farmers to combat the spread of the disease.

At the same time, huge losses of stock are affecting farmers seriously, as they will have a very negative impact on food supplies and the export system.

Thina, KwaZulu-Natali, siyakuncoma ukuthi lo mthetho ozokwalusa ukuphathwa kwamadela uyawahlonipha amalungelo amasiko kanye nezinkolo zabantu. Njengokuthi nje, ukuhlabela imishado, imisebenzi yamasiko nezinkolo ezahlukene akuzukuphazanyiswa yilo mthetho.

Abantu bomdabu bayakwazi ukuzicwaningela inyama engalungile. Useshilo omunye umkhulumi wathi iqatha belithathwa linikezwe isilwane, kungaba yinja nom yikati, kubonakale ukuthi akufi yini. Abantu bomdabu bayakwazi ukuzicwaningela inyama engalungile ngaphandle nje-ke uma bephethwe yindlala. Ukudla ingcuba - isilwane esizifele - kuyingozi. Kodwa-ke, umuntu olambile uzama ngakho konke ukuze abone ukuthi iyabulala yini noma cha. Kuthiwa: An empty stomach knows no law. [Isisu esilambile asazi mthetho.] Ingcuba-ke idliwa kanjalo. Yikho beyicwaninga baze bayinike izinja namakati. Basuke befuna ukubona ukuthi bangalandela yini nabo bayidle. [Ubuwelewele.]

Thina, KwaZulu-Natali, siyawuncoma lo mthetho osezithebeni. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[We in KwaZulu-Natal appreciate the fact that the Bill on the administration of butcheries respects traditions and people’s beliefs. For instance, the culture of slaughtering a beast on a wedding day and slaughtering a beast for religious purposes will not be affected by this Bill.

Africans can identify unhealthy meat. One speaker has said that a piece of meat was given to an animal, it could be a dog or a cat, so as to see that it did not die. Africans can identify unhealthy meat except if they are hungry. Eating the meat of an animal that has died of natural diseases is dangerous. But a starving person tries all possible means to see if it kills or not. The saying goes: ``An empty stomach knows no law.’’ That is why people eat the meat of an animal that has been killed by natural diseases, and that is why they check it first by giving it to cats and dogs. They want to see if it safe for them to eat it. [Interjections.]

[We in KwaZulu-Natal applaud this Bill. [Applause.]]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Mr Chairperson, the UDM supports this Bill because the aims and objectives will enable meat consumers to access disease-free meat and meat products which will be safe and healthy for human consumption. Consumers will therefore be afforded the opportunity to enjoy their right to health, which is a basic fundamental right in terms of section 27 of the Constitution.

There are, however, a few observations I wish to share with the Minister and the House. As already mentioned, the provisions of clause 7 are the most important in the Bill. I wish to share the same sentiments with hon members.

However, I wish to submit to this House that the current appalling unsanitary conditions under which slaughtering and meat handling take place at funerals and church conferences are condoned in terms of clause of section 7(2)(a). The categories of meat consumers mentioned under clause 7(2)(a) are equally susceptible to bovine parasites such as tapeworms. The crux of the matter is that people should consume disease-free meat regardless of whether it has been bought over the counter or slaughtered for funeral or wedding purposes.

Slaughtering or handling of meat carcasses must be subjected to the same hygienic practices. Furthermore, my understanding is that abattoirs are graded from A to F. This Bill will succeed in the enforcement of stringent hygienic practices at abattoirs registered according to grades A and B, which are appropriate to metropolitan needs. Grade D and E would be appropriate to rural conditions because of the lower number of beasts slaughtered per day.

The need for the establishment of the slaughter poles for grades D and E cannot be over emphasised given the hygiene of slaughtering practices in the villages. Slaughter poles can be established at strategic locations to serve a number of villages. This will undoubtedly promote hygiene awareness. Veterinary technicians can carry out meat inspections and monitor hygiene practices at these abattoirs or slaughter poles.

Lastly, the Bill advocates the use of agencies outside the sphere of government to handle the task of meat inspection and the monitoring of sanitary conditions within slaughtering premises. This move is welcomed on the bases of the reasons mentioned in this Bill. May I, however, warn that this process or arrangement must not culminate in a situation where the abattoir and assignee agents clinch a business deal or venture ultimately prejudicing the people’s right to have access to healthy meat. Otherwise, the UDM supports this Bill. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Ek stel die agb mnr A E van Niekerk aan die woord. [I see the hon Mr A E van Niekerk.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. You, have just become my brother in Afrikaans.

Listening to this debate it seems to me that there is a perception somewhere that this Bill is the miracle. I get the impression that this Bill is going to solve the problems of people who have to test meat in order to see whether it is poisonous or not, and that it is even going to address racism, since the hon the Deputy Minister referred to racism in certain practices. But this Bill is no instant cure at all.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Like all Bills.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: The hon Deputy Minister is so right, and therefore it is very important to bring this into perspective. What is it all about?

Die eerste persepsie wat ons moet regstel is dat alle private slagfasiliteite onhigiënies is. Dis mos nie waar nie. Alle slagtings op plase of in agterplase is mos nie onhigiënies nie. Die ketting van daar af vorentoe is gewoonlik egter waar die probleem kom, en waar mense vleis nie higiënies hanteer nie.

Dit raak mos nou ‘n onbegonne taak vir ‘n regering om die higiëne van vleis van ‘n slagting af tot drie, vier, vyf dae of hoe lank ook al daarna te hanteer en die verantwoordelikheid te neem.

Dit moet dus afgeskaal word tot daar waar daar verantwoordelikheid geneem kan word.

Dan is daar twee aspekte waarna ons moet kyk. Hierdie twee aspekte is die lewendige dier en die dier nadat hy geslag is. Sekere siektes kan ‘n mens waarneem voordat die dier geslag is, en daarom moet daar mense beskikbaar wees wat vooraf inspeksies doen.

‘n Mens kan baie maklik sekere siektes waarneem daar waar die dier op die hoef staan; wanneer hy koorsig is, wanneer hy moeg is, wanneer hy lyk soos party van ons kollegas vanmiddag laat hier! Dit kan ‘n mens van die uiterlike houding - ek wil amper sê in die lyftaal - van die dier reeds waarneem. Dit is egter net die een gedeelte. Dit is ook die maklike gedeelte, maar daarna moet gekyk word.

Dan is daar egter sekere siektes wat alleenlik geïdentifiseer kan word nadat die dier geslag is. Daarna moet ook gekyk word. ‘n Mens kan byvoorbeeld kyk of die limfkliere vol TB-kieme is. Dit kan ‘n mens nie sien in die lewendige dier nie, maar as jy hom oopsny, kan jy daardie kaasagtige sweer sien wat daar sit, en dan weet jy wat dit is. Masels, daardie lintwurmeiers wat tussen die vesels van die vleis is, kan ‘n mens nie aan ‘n dier sien as hy net daar staan nie. ‘n Mens moet hom oopmaak en jy moet daardie weefsel sny. Daardie TB en masels kan ‘n nadelige effek op die mens hê as hy dit inkry.

Daar is ander problematiese siektes wat ‘n mens nie op die hoef kan sien nie en wat jy ook nie kan sien as jy ‘n dier geslag het nie, maar wat jy alleenlik deur bloedtoetse van die dier kan waarneem. Dit is dinge soos brusellose wat uiteindelik maltakoors by die mens veroorsaak. Dit kan alleenlik deur bloedtoetse van die dier agtergekom word, en daarom is daar programme in plek wat dit juis identifiseer, die diere doodmaak en die mense vergoed - amper soos met die bek-en-klou-seerepidemie wat ons nou het en waar dit gedoen is omdat dit die enigste manier was.

Hierdie proses was goed in plek hier in ons land, sodat brusellose- en TB- geaffekteerde melkbeeste en teeldiere byna in totaliteit onder beheer was. Nou het die agb Adjunkminister se departement, lyk dit my, se geld opgeraak of hulle het stoom verloor en daardie program is nie meer in plek soos dit was nie. Ek wil vandag ‘n beroep op die agb Adjunkminister doen dat daardie program weer in oënskou geneem word sodat dit hierdie wetgewing kan ondersteun en ons daarmee kan help.

Ons het net twee bekommernisse, en dit is baie kort, mnr die Voorsitter. Ek sien u wil my draadjie kortknip. Moenie!

AGB LEDE: Knip hom! Knip hom! [Tussenwerpsels.]

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Daardie agb lede verwys nou seker na kortknip, en nie na die diereboerdery se tipe knip nie! [Gelag.]

Die bekommernis wat ons het, is of die departement die onderbou het. Ons is oortuig daarvan hy het nie die onderbou om hierdie wetsontwerp rêrig in werking te stel nie, maar ons is oortuig daarvan dat hierdie die begin is en dat dit deel van ‘n proses is.

Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRP (Mnr M L Mushwana): Dankie, mnr Van Niekerk. Ongelukkig móét ek u nou knip! [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The first perception we must correct is that all private slaughtering facilities are unhygienic. Of course this is not true. Not all slaughtering on farms or in backyards is unhygienic. However, the problem normally arises somewhere along the chain from that point onwards, and where people handle the meat in an unhygienic manner.

It surely now becomes an impossible task for a government to deal with and to take responsibility for the hygiene of meat from the point of slaughter for three, four, five days, or however long afterwards. It must therefore be scaled down to a point where responsibility can be taken.

Then there are two aspects which we must look at. These two aspects are the live animal and the animal once it has been slaughtered. There are certain diseases which one can observe before the animal is slaughtered, and for that reason people should be available to do inspections beforehand.

One can easily observe certain diseases merely by looking at the live animal; when it is feverish, when it is tired, when it looks like some of our colleagues here late this afternoon! One can already observe this in the animal from the external attitude - I am almost tempted to say in the body language. However, that is only one aspect. It is also the easy aspect, but we must look at it.

However, there are certain diseases which can only be identified once the animal has been slaughtered. These must also be looked at. For example, one can see whether the lymphatic glands are full of TB germs. One cannot observe it in the live animal, but once you dissect it, one can see that caseous abscess which is there, and then one knows what it is. Measles, those tapeworm eggs which are between the fibres of the meat, cannot be observed in an animal when it is simply standing there. One has to open it up and cut that fibre. That TB and measles can have a detrimental effect on humans if they are ingested.

There are other problematic illnesses which one cannot observe in a live animal and which one can also not see once one has slaughtered an animal, but which can only be observed by way of blood tests of the animal. These are things like brucellosis, which eventually leads to Malta fever in humans. This can only be identified by testing the blood of the animal and there are therefore programmes in place precisely to identify it, kill the animals and compensate the people - almost like the foot-and-mouth epidemic which we have now and where this was done because it was the only option.

This process was firmly established here in our country, so that brucellosis and TB-affected dairy cattle and breeding animals were virtually entirely under control. It now seems to me that the hon the Deputy Minister’s department has run out of money or has lost steam and that programme is no longer in place as used to be the case. Today I would like to appeal to the hon the Deputy Minister that that programme should once again be considered so that it can support this legislation and can help us in that regard.

We have only two concerns, and this is very brief, Mr Chairperson. I see that you want to cut me short. Do not!

HON MEMBERS: Cut him short! Cut him short! [Interjections.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Those hon members are now surely referring to cutting short, and not to the type of cutting involved in animal farming! [Laughter.]

The concern we have is whether the department has the substructure. We are convinced that it does not have the substructure really to implement this Bill, but we are convinced that this is the beginning and that it is part of a process.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Thank you, Mr Van Niekerk. Unfortunately I have to cut you short now! [Laughter.]]

Dr H E MATIME (Northern Province): Chairperson, the province of peace, that is, the Northern Province, supports this Bill. Whether our peacefulness is due to witchcraft or not is a separate debate which we can embark upon later. [Laughter.] On the Meat Safety Bill, this country has finally got a Bill for Africans in Africa by Africans themselves.

The Northern Province deeply appreciates that section of the Bill which accommodates cultural and religious slaughter. That is why we say that finally we have a Bill in Africa for Africans by Africans themselves. This Bill is a source of hope for our province, and we hope that the implementation of clauses 2 to 5, the logistics thereof, will not produce a bureaucracy parallel to the administration. We are hoping, but we know it may not happen.

We are also hoping that the various categories of abattoirs referred to by the speakers before me, including the slaughter pole, will also be given the recognition they deserve. This inclusion of all types of abattoirs - slaughter poles and others - in our view as a province will, we hope, also enable all the citizens of this country to participate in the meat industry, because the laws that prevailed before kept them outside.

We also hope, regarding slaughter for research purposes, that that function will be devolved. We hope the protocol approval for that function will be devolved to the research institutions or the administration units or to ethics committees, because we think that is where the function belongs.

Concerning the training, since there is also a clause on training, we also hope that the exact outcome of the training will be specified in accordance with the SA Qualifications Authority, so that communities can know exactly at what level the graduates of that training will be functioning.

Last, but not least, regarding Schedule 1, we feel that the broad principle needs to be specified, because the varieties peculiar to certain places may not be adequately addressed in the list. [Applause.]

Moruti M CHABAKU: Monnasetilo, fa nako e ne e le teng, ke ne ke tla bua ka Setswana le Sesotho. Mme jaanong gonne re le makgabe a dipapetla, ke tla dirisa tšhomi gore ke oke tse di kwa godimo fela, mme tse dingwe ke di tlogele di le jalo. (Translation of Tswana paragraph follows.)

[Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, if I had enough time, I would address the House in Setswana and Sesotho. But, because I am in a hurry, I shall use English to touch on the main points, and leave the rest for some other time.]

Aangesien die tyd beperk is, sal ek maar in die Engelse taal praat. [Since time is limited, I shall resort to speaking in the English language.]

Mr Chairperson, Deputy Minister, who is, after all, a Free Stater, special delegates, hon councillors of this House, for whom I have great admiration, allow me to express the reflections of the Free State province, as this Bill affects the greater part of the agricultural economy of the province on which much of life depends, especially at subsistence level.

Great concern has been expressed at the approval of a certified abattoir for economic purposes. While we commend the Bill for excluding slaughter for cultural and religious purposes, there needs to be adequate provision for slaughter and sale for economic purposes by many who have been deprived and denied of such economic ventures by past racist and sexist policies. Simply put, the Bill says that slaughtering is legal for religious and cultural purposes, but not for making an income, unless it is done at certified abattoirs, which are at present very few and far between. With the Free State being declared one of the very poor provinces, the poor and marginalised will be barred from off-street sales.

Very few cities do have an abattoir nearby. Obviously, abattoirs will also demand a fee for the slaughtering service. Provision has to be made to build extra abattoir facilities where health and safety precautions can be made available and can be effected.

It would be shocking if the truth were revealed about how many abattoirs belong to people of Caucasian background, as compared to the number owned by people of indigenous African background. Yet the latter form the bulk of those who buy and sell meat products. They are also the ones who maintain their subsistence level of living by buying and selling offal, e mala le mogodu, not of their own choice, but as a way to make ends meet.

We commend the Minister for tightening the loopholes in the definitions enshrined in clause (1)(i) to (xxv). We would like to see opportunities made available for the underprivileged through the erection and maintenance of abattoirs in rural areas and even urban areas where carnivorous demands are very acute.

The bulk of buyers and sellers of offal are very poor women and widows. Provision should also be made to encourage pupils to train in the running and owning of abattoirs in order to enhance the safety of meat and other products, be they for home consumption, export or even importation, or for human or animal consumption.

We should curb the increasing importation of subsidised meat products that are cheaper to purchase and of inferior quality, thus undercutting and killing our own domestic production of especially lamb, chicken and cold meats. What guarantees do we really have that their sources of origin uphold similar or better standards?

We commend the fact that the Bill will enhance the health and safety standards laid down for exports. The proposed control of imports and exports is laudable. Persons doing on-the-spot inspections should reflect the demographics of our motherland and their numbers should be increased to this end. We want the number of inspectors representing our own people to increase in order to compare numerically with the population in relation to the ethnic groups that make up our beloved South Africa.

Right now very few veterinarians are of indigenous origin. The statistics are bleak. Equal opportunities of employment, operation and ownership, especially for women and the youth, should be encouraged, and we should ensure that regulations are complied with and that penalties are effected.

Regarding the regulations, concerns have been expressed over clause 22(1)(d), according to which fees have to be charged for the examination of an animal, meat or an animal product. The fees are often prohibitive and restrictive. Very often people do not have the means to transport the said animal or products for inspection, nor can they afford the travel expenses to go to an inspector where the animal or products may be presented for inspection.

This tends to have unavoidable racial implications because of the past of our motherland.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Mme Moruti, nako e fedile. [Order! Reverend, your time has expired.] [Laughter.]

Rev M CHABAKU: One minute. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Ke maswabi, Mme Moruti. [Order! I am sorry, Reverend.]

Rev M CHABAKU: The overall response to the Meat Safety Bill is approval and commendations to the Minister.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Order! Order, hon member.

Rev M CHABAKU: Amen! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Amen!

Chief M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, once again a piece of legislation aimed at bettering the lives of our people is being tabled in this Chamber. It is now up to us to rise above our petty differences and face this challenge. Let us do it, because we can. Successful people do what failures do not like to do: Do it, because you can.

What is this Meat Safety Bill? There are some people who are unaware that they are buying the meat of stolen animals. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Animals are slaughtered in unauthorised places. It is a fact. In some provinces there are many bush abattoirs, unauthorised abattoirs. [Laughter.]

People sell unhygienic meat at our pension paypoints. When opening those containers of meat, one is met by a swarm or massed choir of flies, competing or fighting to have their share. [Laughter.] Hence this legislation. Let us, as hon members of this House, please join the Minister and the department. Let us do it, because we can.

After this exercise of debating the Bill that we are engaged in, it will be illegal for people to slaughter animals in any place other than an abattoir. Facilities in those abattoirs should meet the required standards. The abattoirs will be categorised accordingly.

Abattoirs or slaughter facilities have to be registered. This is necessary to monitor activities in all abattoirs or slaughter facilities. The idea is noble. Hon members, let us do it, because we can.

The Meat Safety Bill enables the Minister to designate an officer of the department who, as we all know, is supposed to be a veterinarian. The NEO, or national executive officer, can also delegate the same powers to any officer in the department. These are the people who are going to handle registration applications for abattoirs. Of course the export and import of meat will now be closely monitored.

The inspection of slaughter facilities will be done unannounced. Officers can search premises at any time. Licenses, as we have heard, or the registration certificates of those who contravene any section of the Bill, will be withdrawn. These are not punitive measures, but corrective ones to create opportunities to better the lives of our people.

As hon members are all aware, opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. [Laughter.] Hon members, let us do it, because we can. While it is laudable enough to leave footprints on the sands of time, it is important to ensure that they all point in a commendable direction.

Let me deal with some concerns. Will this legislation not make the rich richer and the poor poorer? Are we not indirectly enriching abattoir owners? How many of our people from the disadvantaged communities own well- equipped abattoirs? It is not yet clear who will be monitoring the NEO. What will the relationship between the NEO and the DG be? Who reports to whom? I think here we will need the support of our Minister. There is a saying that people who live in glass houses should make sure that they are fully dressed. [Laughter.]

When one looks at clause 7(2), under exemptions, we have got every reason to celebrate. It allows people to slaughter animals anywhere if it is for their own consumption or for cultural purposes. I can relate a similar unfortunate incident like the one described by Malefane. An artist from the Northern Province, commonly known as Penny Penny, bought a house in Kempton Park and invited his family and friends to come and celebrate.

He slaughtered a cow and wanted to perform some rituals. Unfortunately this did not go down well with some of the neighbours in that suburb. Within a few minutes his yard was full of police and members of the SPCA. He was instructed to tell everybody to leave and to stop partying. He was told that the laws of this country did not allow people to slaughter animals in the suburbs. When he protested, he and his mother were badly beaten up.

He was taken to the nearest police station, where he spent the whole night. [Interjections.] Let us dilute this blood to make sure that it is not that much thicker than water, because this kind of behaviour makes us sick. [Interjections.] To some people slaughtering for cultural purposes and performing of rituals are seen as barbaric. What nonsense!

Having said that, as mature politicians let us not look back in anger, nor look forward with fear. But, let us look around us with anticipation. With this legislation we are singing hallelujahs and we are thanking God.

There is no speed limit in the pursuit of excellence. Ride on! [Laughter.] In the confrontation between the river and the rock, the river always wins, not through strength, but by perseverance.

The ANC in my province mandated me to say that we support this Bill. I think hon members can also do it, because we can. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Thank you, Kgoši. I noticed that the hon members were enjoying your speech so I gave you one minute extra. I will not do it again. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, it is difficult to talk after having heard these brilliant rhetoricians speaking in this House today. Honesty, they simply made good speeches. Everything that I could have said has been said by all the delegates here. There was excellent preparation. I do not know whether it is our delegates who are so good, or whether it is the work done in the provinces that is so good. Perhaps it is both. It must be both. [Interjections.] Nonetheless, I extend my compliments on this wonderful debate.

I think all the aspects have been covered. I will only react to very few things, because of the hour of the day. Dr Matime said something very important. She said this was a Bill for Africans, made by Africans. I want to take my cue from there and ask what the heart of the matter is. Why will this Bill work or not work? What is the ground for this type of thing?

This type of legislation on meat and on food comes from very ancient times. There is evidence of Assyrian tablets which prescribed rules for coping with dishonest practices in the sale of food. The correct weights and measures were prescribed. There are Egyptian scrolls which prescribe rules for labelling. These are very old things. However, if one looks at the history of this matter, one sees that at the heart of all these measures was the need to control corrupt practices and reckless profiteering. That is the answer to what Ms Gouws, who has now left us, argued and criticised us about. The real problem, the problem of food health, is closely connected to reckless profiteering or not, and to honesty.

One will only get a system that really guarantees safe food in a country where people are honest. In Switzerland, a Swiss person who gets to a red robot at three o’clock in the morning will not walk over the street, even though there is no car in sight for seven miles. This is because he is complying with the law. So what one is really doing in a law like this is coping with dishonest practices, because that is the African point members have made.

Although I can tell hon members about Assyrian history, about the laws that were made in the Middle Ages in Europe to make beer pure and to make food pure, or to make cheese healthy, people were slaughtering in Africa all this time and living quite happily. [Interjections.] But why was that. It was because in African traditional communities there was a social bonding and social ruling about how one did this type of thing. People could trust one another. The same went for the old farming communities. One knew that one could eat a certain farmer’s meat, but that one should not eat meat at another person’s farm, because he always got his meat somewhere in the bush, or whatever. [Interjections.]

That is the point that has been made here. Hon members know what I mean.

Daardie agb lid weet tog waarvan ek praat. [Gelag.]

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek weet nie so goed soos die Adjunkminister nie!

Die ADJUNKMINISTER: Daar is sekere Van Niekerks by wie se plaas jy nooit vleis moes geëet het nie! [Gelag.] Daar was darem goeies ook. By die Du Toits kon jy áltyd vleis geëet het! [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[That hon member knows what I am talking about. [Laughter.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, I do not know as well as the Deputy Minister does!

The DEPUTY MINISTER: There are certain Van Niekerks on whose farm one was well advised never to eat meat! [Laughter.] There were good ones too. One could always eat meat on the Du Toits’ farm! [Laughter.]]

The point is this: Colonialism and modern industrial society destroyed that traditional decency of working with food. We now sit with our current situation. I think the word that must go out is that the success of this depends on the people. That is where hon members were quite correct. There are laws against murder and theft, but people have been stealing and murdering one another all the time. A law does not right a wrong immediately, or by itself. The success of the law will be in the way people accept and develop these practices and devil a decent society. In the end, that is one’s best guarantee against a problem like unsafe food.

I believe the way the provinces are going to implement this will tell us how successful it will be. We must look at standards and norms and at exercising these functions at a national level. I think we can only succeed if there is real co-operation between the national and provincial levels. I must tell Rev Chabaku that the person who is heading the KwaZulu-Natal foot- and-mouth centre is Dr Moganjane. She is a woman and a veterinarian, and she is running that show. This shows that there can be more women veterinarians developed in this country, because I know that women care for animals and they care for food. They also have a natural talent, I have seen, for working in leadership positions in Natal, and I can only compliment the women veterinarians who have been involved in this matter.

Could I just comment on the specific question regarding the relationship between the national executive officer and the director-general. I do not think there will be any problem at all. This is a general practice, for example, in terms of the Animal Diseases Act. All these years we have had a veterinarian who was appointed the director of animal diseases, running that type of show, who had specific statutory powers.

The Minister makes the appointment and, of course, works very closely with the director-general. This person, the national executive officer, also has a line function, which is not going to be separate from the department. However, if there are any problems, I am sure then the Minister will sit with a political problem which she will have to sort out in that type of situation. However, that was a good point, I must say.

Regarding the poor getting poorer by reason of this legislation, I think there are opportunities created here. Rev Chabaku reported the Free State position, which was not accepted in the legislation, which was that for economic purposes slaughtering should have been allowed.

It is the same as in slaughtering for commercial purposes. The moment one does that, the situation becomes uncontrollable and one cannot say where one should stop. And for practical purposes that has been recognised. We have been asked by emerging businesspersons who are starting up abattoirs themselves to set the correct standards. They have been more prominent in asking for that than anybody else.

So I think opportunities are being created and, at the same time, the cultural and religious sides are being protected. But I think the basic problem is reckless profiteering. Communities must look after their own affairs. They must not allow themselves to be dictated to, regardless of the level at which they function. They must not allow themselves to be victims of corrupt practices.

I thank the House for a brilliant debate, and I commend the Bill to the NCOP. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for engaging the House in a lively debate and for leading the passage of this important piece of legislation.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT MONITORING COMMITTEE ON IMPROVEMENT OF QUALITY OF LIFE AND STATUS OF CHILDREN, YOUTH AND DISABLED PERSONS - NATIONAL YOUTH COMMISSION

Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF SECOND REPORT OF THE RULES COMMITTEE OF THE NATIONAL
                        COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Order disposed of without debate.

Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 19:36. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                    WEDNESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 20 September 2000 found
     that the South African Boxing Bill [B 58 - 2000] includes
     provisions to which the procedure in section 75 of the
     Constitution applies as well as provisions to which the procedure
     in section 76 of the Constitution applies. Therefore, the Bill is
     classified in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) as a mixed section 75/76
     Bill.


    Since there is no procedure whereby Parliament can pass such a
     mixed Bill, the Bill is out of order.


 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 20 September 2000 in terms
     of Joint Rule 161, classified the following Bills as money Bills:


     (i)     Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 60 - 2000] (National
             Assembly - sec 77) - (Portfolio Committee on Finance -
             National Assembly).


     (ii)    Council for Medical Schemes Levies Bill [B 61 - 2000]
              (National Assembly - sec 77) - (Portfolio Committee on
              Health - National Assembly). TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Special Review by the Auditor-General of the Selection Process of
 Strategic Defence Packages for the Acquisition of Armaments at the
 Department of Defence [RP 161-2000].

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public
     Deposits for 1999-2000.


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of
     Southern Africa for 1999-2000.

1. The Minister of Transport:

 (a)    Report of the Regulating Committee for the Airports Company and
     Air Traffic and Navigation Services Companies for 1999-2000.


 (b)    Report of the Regulating Committee for the Airports Company and
     Air Traffic and Navigation Services Companies: Approach to the
     2001/2 - 2005/6 Permissions.

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (a)    Government Notice No R.501 published in Government Gazette No
     21204 dated 19 May 2000, Amendment of the Rules of the
     Magistrates' Courts made in terms of the Rules Board for Courts of
     Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


 (b)    Government Notice No R.502 published in Government Gazette No
     21204 dated 19 May 2000, Amendment of the rules regulating the
     conduct of the proceedings of the several Provincial and Local
     Divisions of the High Court of South Africa, made in terms of the
     Rules Board for Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


 (c)    Proclamation No R.38 published in Government Gazette No 21353
     dated 7 July 2000, Referral of matters to existing Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, made in terms of the
     Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act
     No 74 of 1996).


 (d)    Proclamation No R.44 published in Government Gazette No 21410
     dated 28 July 2000, Commencement of the Justice Laws
     Rationalisation Act, 1996 (Act No 18 of 1996).


 (e)    Proclamation No R.52 published in Government Gazette No 21529
     dated 1 September 2000, Commencement of sections 1 to 5 and 10 of
     the Judicial Matters Second Amendment Act, 1998 (Act No 122 of
     1998).


 (f)    Proclamation No R.53 published in Government Gazette No 21529
     dated 1 September 2000, Commencement of section 2 of the Sheriffs
     Amendment Act, 1998 (Act No 74 of 1998).


 (g)    Proclamation No R.54 published in Government Gazette No 21529
     dated 1 September 2000, Commencement of sections 1, 2, 3, 4(2), 5,
     6, 29 (with the exception of subsection (2)), 32, 33, and 34(1) of
     the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination
     Act, 2000 (Act No 4 of 2000).


 (h)    Government Notice No R.850 published in Government Gazette No
     21504 dated 1 September 2000, Amendment of Regulations made in
     terms of the Prevention of Organised Crime Act, 1998 (Act No 121
     of 1998).


 (i)    Government Notice No R.865 published in Government Gazette No
     21519 dated 1 September 2000, Determination of amounts and
     exclusion of employees for the purposes of section 98A of the
     Insolvency Act, 1936 (Act No 24 of 1936).


 (j)    Government Notice No R.874 published in Government Gazette No
     21517 dated 1 September 2000, Establishment of Equality Review
     Committee and appointment of members thereof, made in terms of the
     Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act,
     2000 (Act No 4 of 2000).

National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Safety and Security:

 (a)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Republic of Chile on Co-operation and
     Mutual Assistance in the Prevention of Drug Abuse and Combating
     the Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances,
     tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (b)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Argentine Republic on Co-operation and
     Mutual Assistance in the Field of Combating the Production of and
     Illicit Traffic in Narcotics and Psychotropic Substances, the
     Improper Use of Drugs and related matters, tabled in terms of
     section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

                     THURSDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

   The Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces withdrew their decision of 1 September 2000 establishing an ad hoc joint committee on the General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill [B 36 - 2000].

   The Minister of Health on 29 August 2000 submitted a draft of the Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Second Amendment Bill, 2000, as well as the memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Health and the Select Committee on Social Services by the Speaker and the Chairperson, respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).

   The following Bills were introduced in the National Assembly on 21 September 2000 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:

   (i) South African Reserve Bank Amendment Bill [B 62 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Finance - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 21513 of 29 August 2000.]

   (ii) Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 63 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 21492 of 22 August 2000.] (iii) South African Rail Commuter Corporation Limited Financial Arrangements Bill [B 64 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Finance - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 21547 of 29 August 2000.]

   (iv) African Renaissance and International Co-operation Fund Bill [B 65 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Finance - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 21514 of 29 August 2000.]

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bills passed by National Assembly on 20 September 2000 and 21 September
 2000 and transmitted for concurrence:


 (1)    Cross-Border Insolvency Bill [B 4B - 2000] (National    Assembly
     - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Security and Constitutional
     Affairs - National Council of Provinces).


 Bills passed by National Assembly on 21 September 2000 and transmitted
 for concurrence:


 (1)    Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill [B 27 - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Local Government and
     Administration - National Council of Provinces).


 (2)    Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 51 -
     2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Local
     Government and Administration - National Council of Provinces).

Papers:

1. The Chairperson: The following papers were tabled on 20 September 2000 and are now referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:

 (a)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Republic of Chile on Co-operation and
     Mutual Assistance in the Prevention of Drug Abuse and Combating
     the Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances,
     tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (b)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Argentine Republic on Co-operation and
     Mutual Assistance in the Field of Combating the Production of and
     Illicit Traffic in Narcotics and Psychotropic Substances, the
     Improper Use of Drugs and related matters, tabled in terms of
     section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 Report and Financial Statements of the South African Qualifications
 Authority for 1999-2000, including Report of the Auditor-General on the
 Financial Statements for 1999-2000.


 Referred to the Portfolio Committe on Education. The Report of the
 Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the South African
 Qualifications Authority for 1999-2000 is referred to the Standing
 Committee on Public Accounts.

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 Report on the National Advisory Council on Innovation for 1999.


 Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and
 Technology and to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Economic Affairs on the Competition Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 19 September 2000:

   The Select Committee on Economic Affairs, having considered the subject of the Competition Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:

                           CLAUSE 1
   

   1. On page 3, from line 21, to omit “, (b) or (c)” and to substitute “or (b)”.

   2. On page 3, in line 56, to omit “81(1)” and to substitute “82(1)”.

                FRIDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER 2000
      

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    On 22 September 2000 the following Bill, at the request of the
     Minister of Health, was introduced in the National Council of
     Provinces by the Select Committee on Social Services. It has been
     referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification
     in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service
          Professions Second Amendment Bill [B 66 - 2000] (National
          Council of Provinces - sec 76) - (Select Committee on Social
          Services - National Council of Provinces) [Explanatory
          summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction
          published in Government Gazette No 21483 of 25 August 2000.]

                     TUESDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Labour:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Commission for Conciliation,
 Mediation and Arbitration for 1998-99, including Report of the Auditor-
 General on the Financial Statements for 1998-99.

1. The Minister of Health:

 (a)    Government Notice No R.650 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21313 dated 30 June 2000, Amendment of Regulations made in
     terms of the Medical Schemes Act, 1998.


 (b)    Government Notice No R.755 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21399 dated 28 July 2000, Amendment of Regulations relating to
     milk and diary products made in terms of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics
     and Disinfectants Act, 1972.


 (c)    Government Notice No R.837 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21486 dated 25 August 2000, Amendment of Regulations relating
     to milk and diary products made in terms of the Foodstuffs,
     Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972.


 (d)    Government Notice No 757 published in the Government Gazette No
     21409 dated 28 July 2000, Notice of ratification of Protocol on
     Health in Southern African Development Community (SADC).


 (e)    Government Notice No R.836 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21486 dated 25 August 2000, Amendment of regulations regarding
     maximum limits for pesticide residues made in terms of the
     Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972.


 (f)    Government Notice No 838 published in the Government Gazette No
     21483 dated 25 August 2000, Explanatory summary on Chiropractors,
     Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Amendment Bill,
     2000 published for comment.


 (g)    Government Notice No R.872 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21533 dated 8 September 2000, Regulations regarding the use of
     names which may not be used made in terms of the Medical, Dental
     and Supplementary Health Service Professions Act, 1974.


 (h)    Government Notice No R.872 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21533 dated 8 September 2000, Regulations on flouridating water
     supplies made in terms of the Health Laws Amendment Act, 1977.


 (i)    Government Notice No R.921 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21552 dated 15 September 2000, Regulations regarding fees to be
     paid to the South African Nursing Council made in terms of the
     Nursing Act, 1978.


 (j)    Government Notice No R.925 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21552 dated 15 September 2000, Regulations defining scope of
     profession of emergency care made in terms of the Medical, Dental
     and Supplementary Health Service Professions Act, 1974.


 (k)    Government Notice No R.943 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21569 dated 22 September 2000, Regulations made in terms of the
     Medical Schemes Act, 1998.


 (l)    Government Notice No 942 published in the Government Gazette No
     21569 dated 22 September 2000, Explanatory summary of the Mental
     Health Care Bill, 2001 published for comment.


 (m) Government Notice No 876 published in the Government Gazette No
     21535 dated 4 September 2000, Publication of the Chiropractors,
     Homeopaths and Allied Health Service professions Amendment Act,
     2000 (Act No 6 of 2000).

                    WEDNESDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

   Government Notice No R.896 published in the Government Gazette No 21545 dated 8 September 2000, Amendment of Prescribed Fees made in terms of section 36 of the Pension Funds Act, 1956 (Act No 24 of 1956).

2. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

   Report and Financial Statements of the Support Programme for Industrial Innovation for 1999-2000.

                  THURSDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER 2000
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: The following member has been appointed to serve on the Committee mentioned, viz:

 Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence:


 Pillay, S R

TABLINGS:

National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Chairperson, as Chairperson of the Rules Committee of the National Council of Provinces, presents the Second Report of the Rules Committee of the National Council of Provinces, dated 19 September 2000, as follows:

2. The Rules Committee of the National Council of Provinces, having considered proposals for the amendment of the Rules of the National Council of Provinces, recommends the following amendments to the Rules: 1. Rule 121: Subcommittees

   To amend Rule 121(1)(b) by the deletion of the words in bold
   brackets and the addition of the words underlined, and to insert a
   new subparagraph (h):
   
   
   121.    (1)  The Rules Committee has the following subcommittees:
   
   
          (a)   The Subcommittee on the Council Budget [and Support
                for Members];
   
   
          (b)   the Subcommittee on Review of the Council Rules [and
                Parliamentary Privileges];
   
   
          (c)   ………….
   
   
          (f)   the Subcommittee on Parliamentary Powers and
                Privileges.
   
   
          (g)   the Subcommittee on Support for Council Members
          (h)   any other subcommittee appointed in terms of rule
                118(1)(f)
   

 2.     Heading:   "Subcommittee on the Council Budget and Support for
    Members"


     To amend the heading by the deletion of the words in bold
     brackets:


     "Subcommittee on the Council Budget [and Support for Members]"




 3.     To insert a heading:    "Subcommittee on Support for Members of
     the Council"


 4.     Rule 125B: Chairperson


    To insert Rule 125B as follows:


    125B:    (1)   The Rules Committee appoints one of the members of
                    the Subcommittee as the chairperson of the
                    Subcommittee.


              (2)  If the chairperson is not available the remaining
                     members must elect another member to act as
                     chairperson.


 5.     Rule 125D: Decisions


    To insert Rule 125D as follows:


    125D:    (1)   A question before the Subcommittee is decided by
                     consensus.


           (2)     If consensus cannot be reached all views in the
                     Subcommittee must be reported to the Rules
                     Committee.


 6.     Heading:   "Subcommittee on Review of the Council Rules and
                Parliamentary Privileges"


      To amend the heading by the deletion of the words in bold
      brackets:


      "Subcommittee on Review of the Council Rules [and Parliamentary
      Privileges]"


 7.     To insert a heading:   "Subcommittee on Parliamentary Powers and
     Privileges"


 8.     Rule 129B: Chairperson


    To insert Rule 129B as follows:


    129B:    (1)   The Chairperson of the Council is the chairperson of
                    the Subcommittee.


           (2)     If the chairperson is not available the remaining
                     members must elect another member to act as
                     chairperson.


 9.     Rule 129C: Functions and Powers


    To insert Rule 129C as follows:


    129C:    The Subcommittee may -


           (a)     review existing legislation, the common law and
                   practices relating to parliamentary powers and
                   privileges;


           (b)     make recommendations to the Rules Committee to
                   transform the existing law and practice on
                   parliamentary powers and privileges; and


           (c)     perform any other function, and exercise any other
                   power assigned to it by the Rules Committee.


 10.    Rule 129D: Decisions


    To insert Rule 129D as follows:


    129D:    (1)   A question before the Subcommittee is decided by
                   consensus.


           (2)     If consensus cannot be reached all views in the
                   Subcommittee must be reported to the Rules Committee.






 G N M PANDOR
 CHAIRPERSON: RULES COMMITTEE
 NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
 19 September 2000


 Report to be considered.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the Meat Safety Bill [B 29B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 19 September 2000:

   The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the subject of the Meat Safety Bill [B 29B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it, reports the Bill with amendments [B 29C - 2000].

2. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the Tourism Amendment Bill [B 50B - 99] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 19 September 2000:

   The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the subject of the Tourism Amendment Bill [B 50B - 99] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it, reports the Bill with amendments [B 50C - 99].

                   FRIDAY, 29 SEPTEMBER 2000
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

(a)     The South African Boxing Bill [B 58 - 2000], introduced by the
      Minister of Sport and Recreation on 23 August 2000 and found to be
      out of order by the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) (see
      Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 741), was removed
      from the Order Paper and referred back to the Minister on 28
      September 2000.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bill passed by National Assembly on 28 September 2000 and transmitted
 for concurrence:


 (a)    Institution of Legal Proceedings against Organs of State Bill [B
     65B - 99] (introduced as Limitation of Legal Proceedings against
     Government Institutions Bill [B 65 - 99] (National Assembly - sec
     75)) - (Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs -
     National Council of Provinces).

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bill passed by National Assembly on 29 September 2000 and transmitted
 for concurrence:


 (a)    Council for the Built Environment Bill [B 16B - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Public Services -
     National Council of Provinces).


 (b)    Architectural Profession Bill [B 17B - 2000] (National Assembly
     - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Public Services - National
     Council of Provinces).


 (c)    Landscape Architectural Profession Bill [B 18B - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Public Services -
     National Council of Provinces).


 (d)    Engineering Profession Bill [B 19B - 2000] (National Assembly -
     sec 75) - (Select Committee on Public Services - National Council
     of Provinces).


 (e)    Property Valuers Profession Bill [B 20B - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Public Services -
     National Council of Provinces).


 (f)    Project and Construction Management Professions Bill [B 21B -
     2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Public
     Services - National Council of Provinces).


 (g)    Quantity Surveying Profession Bill [B 22B - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Public Services -
     National Council of Provinces).

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration on the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill [B 27B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 22 September 2000:

   The Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, having considered the subject of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill [B 27B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

                    MONDAY, 2 OCTOBER 2000
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers were tabled and are now referred to the relevant
 committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Defence and to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional
     Affairs. It is also referred to the Standing Committee on Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     Special Review by the Auditor-General of the Selection Process of
     Strategic Defence Packages for the Acquisition of Armaments at the
     Department of Defence [RP 161-2000].


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Select Committee on Finance:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Corporation for
          Public Deposits for 1999-2000.


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of
          Southern Africa for 1999-2000.


     (c)     Government Notice No R.896 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21545 dated 8 September 2000, Amendment of
          Prescribed Fees made in terms of section 36 of the Pension
          Funds Act, 1956 (Act No 24 of 1956).


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Transport and to the Select Committee on Public Services:


     (a)     Report of the Regulating Committee for the Airports
          Company and Air Traffic and Navigation Services Companies for
          1999-2000.


     (b)     Report of the Regulating Committee for the Airports
          Company and Air Traffic and Navigation Services Companies:
          Approach to the 2001/2 - 2005/6 Permissions.


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development and to the Select Security
     and Constitutional Affairs:


     (a)     Government Notice No R.501 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21204 dated 19 May 2000, Amendment of the Rules of
          the Magistrates' Courts made in terms of the Rules Board for
          Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


     (b)     Government Notice No R.502 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21204 dated 19 May 2000, Amendment of the rules
          regulating the conduct of the proceedings of the several
          Provincial and Local Divisions of the High Court of South
          Africa, made in terms of the Rules Board for Courts of Law
          Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


     (c)     Proclamation No R.38 published in the Government Gazette
          No 21353 dated 7 July 2000, Referral of matters to existing
          Special Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, made in terms
          of the Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act,
          1996 (Act No 74 of 1996).


     (d)     Proclamation No R.44 published in the Government Gazette
          No 21410 dated 28 July 2000, Commencement of the Justice Laws
          Rationalisation Act, 1996 (Act No 18 of 1996).


     (e)     Proclamation No R.52 published in the Government Gazette
          No 21529 dated 1 September 2000, Commencement of sections 1 to
          5 and 10 of the Judicial Matters Second Amendment Act, 1998
          (Act No 122 of 1998).


     (f)     Proclamation No R.53 published in the Government Gazette
          No 21529 dated 1 September 2000, Commencement of section 2 of
          the Sheriffs Amendment Act, 1998 (Act No 74 of 1998).


     (g)     Proclamation No R.54 published in the Government Gazette
          No 21529 dated 1 September 2000, Commencement of sections 1,
          2, 3, 4(2), 5, 6, 29 (with the exception of subsection (2)),
          32, 33, and 34(1) of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention
          of Unfair Discrimination Act, 2000 (Act No 4 of 2000).


     (h)     Government Notice No R.850 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21504 dated 1 September 2000, Amendment of
          Regulations made in terms of the Prevention of Organised Crime
          Act, 1998 (Act No 121 of 1998).


     (i)     Government Notice No R.865 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21519 dated 1 September 2000, Determination of
          amounts and exclusion of employees for the purposes of section
          98A of the Insolvency Act, 1936 (Act No 24 of 1936).


     (j)     Government Notice No R.874 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21517 dated 1 September 2000, Establishment of
          Equality Review Committee and appointment of members thereof,
          made in terms of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of
          Unfair Discrimination Act, 2000 (Act No 4 of 2000).


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Labour and to the Select Committee on Labour and Public
     Enterprises. The Report of the Auditor-General is referred to the
     Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and
     report:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Commission for
     Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration for 1998-99, including
     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 1998-
     99.


 (6)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Health and to the Select Committee on Social Services:


     (a)     Government Notice No R.650 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21313 dated 30 June 2000, Amendment of Regulations
          made in terms of the Medical Schemes Act, 1998.


     (b)     Government Notice No R.755 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21399 dated 28 July 2000, Amendment of Regulations
          relating to milk and dairy products made in terms of the
          Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972.


     (c)     Government Notice No R.837 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21486 dated 25 August 2000, Amendment of
          Regulations relating to milk and dairy products made in terms
          of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972.


     (d)     Government Notice No 757 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21409 dated 28 July 2000, Notice of ratification of
          Protocol on Health in Southern African Development Community
          (SADC).


     (e)     Government Notice No R.836 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21486 dated 25 August 2000, Amendment of
          regulations regarding maximum limits for pesticide residues
          made in terms of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants
          Act, 1972.
     (f)     Government Notice No 838 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21483 dated 25 August 2000, Explanatory summary on
          Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service
          Professions Amendment Bill, 2000 published for comment.


     (g)     Government Notice No R.872 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21533 dated 8 September 2000, Regulations regarding
          the use of names which may not be used made in terms of the
          Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions
          Act, 1974.


     (h)     Government Notice No R.872 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21533 dated 8 September 2000, Regulations on
          flouridating water supplies made in terms of the Health Laws
          Amendment Act, 1977.


     (i)     Government Notice No R.921 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21552 dated 15 September 2000, Regulations
          regarding fees to be paid to the South African Nursing Council
          made in terms of the Nursing Act, 1978.


     (j)     Government Notice No R.925 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21552 dated 15 September 2000, Regulations defining
          scope of profession of emergency care made in terms of the
          Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions
          Act, 1974.


     (k)     Government Notice No R.943 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21569 dated 22 September 2000, Regulations made in
          terms of the Medical Schemes Act, 1998.


     (l)     Government Notice No 942 published in the Government
          Gazette No 21569 dated 22 September 2000, Explanatory summary
          of the Mental Health Care Bill, 2001 published for comment.


     (m) Government Notice No 876 published in the Government Gazette
          No 21535 dated 4 September 2000, Publication of the
          Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service
          Professions Amendment Act, 2000 (Act No 6 of 2000).


 (7)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Trade and Industry and to the Select Committee on Economic
     Affairs:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Support Programme for
     Industrial Innovation for 1999-2000.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

The following members have been appointed to serve on the Committee
 mentioned, viz:


 Ad hoc Committee on General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill:


 Bhengu, M J       IFP         KwaZulu-Natal
Dlulane, B N ANC   Eastern Cape
 Kolweni, Z S ANC  North West
 Lubidla, E   ANC  Northern Cape
 Mahlangu, J L     ANC   Mpumalanga
Matthee, P A New NP     KwaZulu-Natal
Nkuna, C     ANC   Northern Province
Setona, T    ANC        Free State
 Theron, J L  DP   Gauteng

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 (1)    Government Notice No 777 published in the Government Gazette No
     21444 dated 11 August 2000, The date on which TEFSA ceases its
     functions made in terms of the National Student Financial Aid
     Scheme Act, 1999 (Act No 56 of 1999).


 (2)    Government Notice No 789 published in the Government Gazette No
     21438 dated 11 August 2000, Approval that the pilot project Travel
     and Tourism Standard Grade, Grade 10 - 12 becomes a fully fledged
     instructional offering, made in terms of the National Education
     Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).


 (3)    Government Notice No R.848 published in the Government Gazette
     No 21501 dated 1 September 2000, Correction notice to Government
     Gazette No 21192 dated 18 May 2000, made in terms of the National
     Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).


 (4)    Government Notice No 3102 published in the Government Gazette No
     21539 dated 6 September 2000, Call for public comment on draft
     document - The National Policy Framework on Whole-school
     Evaluation, made in terms of the National Education Policy Act,
     1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration on the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 51B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 2 October 2000:

 The Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, having
 considered the subject of the Local Government: Municipal Structures
 Amendment Bill [B 51B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to
 it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:


                              CLAUSE 11


     1.  On page 12, after line 15, to add the following subsection:


             (6) A district municipality or a metropolitan municipality
          may levy and claim a regional services levy and a regional
          establishment levy referred to in section 12(1)(a) of the
          Regional Services Councils Act, 1985, or section 16(1)(a) of
          the KwaZulu and Natal Joint Services Act, 1990.


                              CLAUSE 15
     Clause rejected.


                             NEW CLAUSE


     1. That the following be a new Clause:


          Transitional application of section 14 of Act 117 of 1998


            15. For purposes of the transition -
          (a) section 14(2)(b) of the Structures Act must be regarded as
              permitting the regulation of any legal, practical and
              other consequences of the disestablishment of an existing
              municipality, to be effected by way of an amendment to
              the section 12 notice disestablishing the existing
              municipality, provided the notice is amended before the
              date on which the disestablishment of the existing
              municipality takes effect; and
          (b) section 14(5) of the Structures Act must be regarded to
              read as follows:
                "(5)(a) The MEC for local government in a province, by
              notice in the  Provincial Gazette, may make provision for
              transitional measures to facilitate the disestablishment
              of an existing municipality and the establishment of a
              new municipality.
              (b)  The measures contemplated in paragraph (a)   may
                   include measures -
                   (i)   establishing a committee to advise the MEC on
                         any matter affecting the transition; or
                   (ii)  in relation to the existing municipality,
                         restricting or regulating the -
                         (aa) alterations to the staff establishment;
                         (bb) appointment of staff or the filling of
                                vacancies;
                         (cc) upgrading of posts or promotions;
                         (dd) increases in salaries or wages;
                         (ee) disposal or acquisition of assets;
                         (ff) conclusion of contracts with a duration
                                longer than one year or the renewal of
                                such contracts; or
                         (gg) use of reserve capital.
              (c)  The MEC must consult the existing municipality
                   before publishing the notice contemplated in
                   paragraph (a).".

                       TUESDAY, 3 OCTOBER 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bills passed by National Assembly on 3 October 2000 and transmitted for
 concurrence:


 (a)    Council for Medical Schemes Levies Bill [B 61 - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 77) - (Select Committee on Social Services, the
     Committee to confer with the Select Committee on Finance -
     National Council of Provinces).


 (b)    Higher Education Amendment Bill [B 55B - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Education and Recreation
     - National Council of Provinces).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

(1) The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 (1)    Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the event
     of Armed Conflict (the Hague Convention) with regulations for the
     execution and the coverence resolutions, 14 May 1954, tabled in
     terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (2)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention.

1. The Minister for Welfare and Population Development:

 National Report on Social Development for 1995-2000.

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (1)    Rome Statutes of the International Court of Justice, tabled in
     terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (2)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Rome Statutes.


 (3)    Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and
     Political Rights, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
     Constitution, 1996.


 (4) Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and
     Political Rights, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
     Constitution, 1996.


 (5) Explanatory Memorandum to the protocols.


 (6)    Extradition Treaty between the Government of the Republic of
     South Africa and the Government of the United States of America,
     tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (7)    Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the United States of America on Mutual Legal
     Assistance in Criminal Matters, tabled in terms of section 231(2)
     of the Constitution, 1996.


 (8)    Explanatory Memorandum to the treaties.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Finance Bill [B 40 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 3 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Finance Bill [B 40 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Banks Amendment Bill [B 56B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 3 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Banks Amendment Bill [B 56B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

   The Committee notes with concern that the principle Act (the Banks Act, 1990) and the Banks Amendment Bill [B 56B - 2000] are gender- insensitive, and recommends that the National Treasury correct this within 12 months of the adoption of this Report by the Council.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the RSA/Nigeria Double Taxation Agreement, dated 3 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Federal Republic of Nigeria for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and on Capital Gains, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the RSA/China Double Taxation Agreement, dated 3 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the People’s Republic of China for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

 Report to be considered.