National Council of Provinces - 14 November 2000
TUESDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 2000 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:03.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr K D S DURR: Madam Chair, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council -
(1) takes note of the lawless behaviour of the government of Zimbabwe, that is flagrantly flying in the face of its own High Court decisions on the unlawful land grab and occupation of farms belonging to Zimbabwean commercial farmers, by so-called war veterans;
(2) notes that as a consequence it is inevitable that this rogue government, which is fast running out of resources to prop itself up as an organised state, is likely to collapse soon and become dysfunctional;
(3) therefore calls upon the Government of South Africa publicly to put, as such, ``blue water’’ between itself and the despotic behaviour of the failing government of President Robert Mugabe; and
(4) further calls upon our Government to have urgent contingency plans in place to prevent contagion of instability in the region with the inevitable collapse of Zimbabwe, and to prepare plans for the urgent reconstruction by SADC and the world community of a free and democratic post-Mugabe Zimbabwe, in the interests of all in the region.
Mev J WITBOOI: Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Raad sal voorstel:
Dat die Raad -
(1) sy afkeur uitspreek van die rassistiese veldtog wat die ANC-leierskap in die Wes-Kaap voer;
(2) kennis neem dat die rassistiese veldtog gevoer word na afloop van ‘n resolusie teen rassisme wat verlede week in hierdie Raad geneem is;
(3) verder kennis neem dat daar verwys word na die uitsprake van die leier in die Wes-Kaap, mnr Ebrahim Rasool, wat by ‘n openbare vergadering openlik vir die gehoor aangepor het om vir die ANC- kandidaat te stem omdat sy regtig bruin is en haar nie bruin hoef voor te doen nie;
(4) deur die DA versoek word om, in die lig daarvan dat uitsluitsel gegee word of die persoon wit genoeg is vir die wit kiesers en swart genoeg is vir die swart kiesers, te beklemtoon hoe belaglik dit is; en
(5) kennis neem daarvan dat die aanblaas van rassisme om stemme te werf gedoen word deur persone wat weier om te transformeer na die werklike Suid-Afrika. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Mrs J WITBOOI: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) expresses its disapproval of the racist campaign being conducted by the ANC leadership in the Western Cape;
(2) notes that this racist campaign is being conducted after a resolution against racism was taken in this Council last week;
(3) furthermore notes that reference has been made to the remarks by the ANC leader in the Western Cape, Mr Ebrahim Rasool, who openly urged the audience at a public meeting to vote for the ANC candidate because she really was brown and did not have to pretend to be brown;
(4) is requested by the DA, in view of the fact that a pronouncement has been made on whether a person is white enough for the white voters and black enough for the black voters, to stress how ridiculous this is; and
(5) notes that the stirring up of racism in order to canvass votes is being done by persons who refuse to transform to the real South Africa.]
Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat die Demokratiese Alliansie by die volgende sitting van die Raad sal voorstel:
Dat die Raad sy dank uitspreek dat -
(1) daar nou ‘n jaar na die eerste gerugte van onreëlmatigheid … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph resolution follows.)
[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I give notice that the Democratic Alliance will move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council expresses its thanks -
(1) that a year after the first rumours of irregularity …]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, we have at a previous sitting of this Council objected to the use of the term ``Democratic Alliance’’ to refer to a political party. There is no such party as the Democratic Alliance in this House.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! No, there is no such party. I do not know whether the member was saying that there is such a party. I thought he was giving notice of a motion.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, he said that the Democratic Alliance would move a motion at a next sitting. This is why I have objected.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! There is not a party such as the Democratic Alliance. Mrs Witbooi also made this reference.
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I have to inform this House that there definitely is a party called the Democratic Alliance … [Interjections.] … which is contesting the coming municipal elections.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Van Niekerk, in this House you represent the New NP, and various other members represent the DP. As far as I am aware, there has not been, in terms of the outcome of the election of 1999, a party called the Democratic Alliance represented in this House. I do not recall that, but I may be mistaken. There may be such a party represented in this House. It may have come into being in the House while I was away at the Pan-African Parliament meeting, but I do not recall such a representation. [Laughter.] Therefore, I think the member is right, unless I am informed appropriately that the Democratic Alliance did in fact participate in the 1999 election and there are members on a list of the Democratic Alliance who are now in this House. Please assist me.
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, thank you very much. I appreciate the approach on this. The New NP … [Laughter.] … as part of the Democratic Alliance in the municipal election, would like to give notice of a motion.
Ek sal by die volgende sitting van die Raad voorstel: Dat die Raad sy dank uitspreek dat -
(1) daar nou ‘n jaar na die eerste gerugte van onreëlmatigheid met die R43 biljoen se wapenkontrak ‘n daadwerklike poging aangewend word om dit indringend te ondersoek;
(2) die proses deeglik, maar spoedeisend afgehandel sal word sodat dit die skade wat aan Suid-Afrika se beeld berokken word, sal beperk; en
(3) die persone wat deur die ondersoek geïdentifiseer word as nalatig te gewees het en/of deel van bedrog of enige ander misdryf te gewees het onmiddellik uit hulle poste ontslaan sal word en dat die reg sy loop sal neem om hulle te straf vir hulle dade en vir die skade wat elkeen in hierdie land raak. (Translation of Afrikaans (draft resolution follows.)
[I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council expresses its thanks that -
(1) a year after the first rumours of irregularity about the R43 billion arms contract a real attempt is now being made to investigate it thoroughly;
(2) the process will be completed thoroughly, but urgently, so that the damage that is being done to South Africa’s image will be limited; and
(3) the people identified by the investigation as having been negligent and/or having participated in fraud or any other offence will be removed from their posts immediately, and that the law will take its course to punish them for their deeds and for the damage which affects each person in this country.]
RACIST ALLEGATIONS AGAINST JUDICIAL OFFICERS
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes the serious racist allegations made by a father and his 18-year- old daughter against black judicial officers, as reported in the Cape Times of 13 November 2000;
(2) deplores once more such blatant racist remarks;
(3) believes that attitudes which tend to undermine black persons who are in responsible positions, should not be tolerated; and
(4) welcomes and supports the initiative by the Judge President of the Cape in requesting the Director of Public Prosecutions to institute an investigation into the matter.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FIGHT AGAINST DIABETES
(Draft Resolution)
Dr P J C NEL: Voorsitter, ek stel voor sonder kennisgewing: Dat die Raad -
(1) kennis neem dat vandag deur die Wêreldgesondheidsorganisasie verklaar is as Wêreldbewustheidsdag vir Diabetes;
(2) sy dank en waardering uitspreek teenoor al die dokters, verpleegkundiges en ander gesondheidsorgwerkers wat vandag baie moeite doen by die meeste van die diabetesklinieke in ons land met die aanbieding van bewusmakingsprogramme en siftingstoetse op pasiënte;
(3) daarvan kennis neem dat diabetes vandag ‘n baie algemene siekte is en een van die hoofoorsake van bloedvaatsiektes, hartsiektes, hipertensie en blindheid is en dat talle diabeteslyers ongediagnoseerd rondloop;
(4) sy lede aanmoedig om self toetse te ondergaan en om die lede van die gemeenskappe wat hulle bedien, bewus te maak van die gevare van die siekte en om hulle ook aan te spoor om vir vroeë toetse te gaan; en
(5) die Departement van Gesondheid se aandag daarop vestig dat sekere klinieke nie deurentyd voldoende insulien voorrade tot hulle beskikking het nie. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that today has been declared World Awareness Day for Diabetes by the World Health Organisation;
(2) expresses its thanks and appreciation to all the doctors, nurses and other health care workers who are taking a lot of trouble today at most of the diabetic clinics in our country with the presentation of awareness programmes and with screening tests on patients;
(3) notes that diabetes is a very common disease today and one of the main causes of arterial diseases, heart diseases, hypertension and blindness, and that many diabetes sufferers are walking around undiagnosed; (4) encourages its members to go for testing themselves and to make the members of the communities they serve aware of the dangers of the disease, and also to encourage them to go for early testing; and
(5) draws the attention of the Department of Health to the fact that certain clinics do not always have sufficient insulin supplies at their disposal.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
RESPONSE TO FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
(Draft Resolution)
Dr E A CONROY: Voorsitter, ek stel voor sonder kennisgewing:
Dat die Raad -
(1) sy dank uitspreek teenoor die LUR van KwaZulu-Natal en sy Departement van Landbou vir hul optrede ten opsigte van die uitbreek van bek-en- klouseer in die provinsie;
(2) verder erkenning gee aan die kommersiële landbouers vir hulle samewerking;
(3) egter ook ‘n beroep op die totale landbou- en sakegemeenskap van KwaZulu-Natal en die aangrensende provinsies Mpumalanga, die Oos-Kaap en die Vrystaat doen om mee te help dat die bekamping van die virus … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) expresses its thanks to the MEC of KwaZulu-Natal and his Department of Agriculture for their action with regard to the outbreak of foot- and-mouth disease in the province;
(2) further pays tribute to the commercial farmers for their co- operation; (3) calls on the whole agricultural and business community of KwaZulu- Natal and the adjoining provinces of Mpumalanga, the Eastern Cape and the Free State, however, to co-operate to ensure that the control of …]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Yes, Mr Van Niekerk?
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, the hon MEC from KwaZulu-Natal is without an apparatus to follow the translation of the motion. I think it is apparent that he should listen to this motion.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I am sure Dr Mkhize welcomes your kind attention to his needs. I do not think Dr Conroy anticipated that the hon the MEC would be here, nor did the House.
Dr E A CONROY: Shall I start at the beginning, Chairperson?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, please proceed, Dr Conroy. The hon the MEC has indicated to me that he understands quite a good modicum of Afrikaans.
Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, I continue:
... deur die inenting wat nou gaan begin, die afkordon van die
betrokke gebiede en enige ander maatreëls suksesvol is;
(4) ‘n beroep op die Regering doen om sy aandag op hierdie ramp te fokus, hierdie natuurramp met die minimum burokrasie te beveg, die skade te help beredder en die landbouers in hierdie krisis by te staan; en
(5) kennis neem daarvan dat die impak van die uitbreek reeds ernstig is, maar dat, indien dit nie spoedig onder beheer gebring word nie, dit katastrofaal vir al die mense in Suid-Afrika sal wees. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[... by the inoculation which is about to begin, the cordoning off of
the relevant areas and any other measures is successful;
(4) calls on the Government to focus its attention on this disaster, to fight this natural disaster with the minimum of bureaucracy, to help address the damages and to assist the farmers in this crisis; and
(5) notes that the impact of the outbreak is already serious, but that if it is not swiftly brought under control, it will be catastrophic for all the people of South Africa.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CLEANING-UP OPERATION AT LAND BANK
(Draft Resolution)
Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes the dismissal of 12 Land Bank officials after a broad cleaning- up operation;
(2) further notes that the cleaning-up operation has saved the institution R30 million; (3) commends the Land Bank for its swift action in exposing these corrupt elements; and
(4) believes it reaffirms the commitment of Government to clamp down on corrupt elements in all state and semi-state institutions.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
APPEAL TO POLITICAL PARTIES TO ADHERE TO RULES DURING MUNICIPAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN
(Draft Resolution)
Mnr C ACKERMANN: Voorsitter, ek stel voor sonder kennisgewing:
Dat die Raad -
(1) hom uitspreek ten gunste van ‘n vrye en regverdige plaaslike regeringsverkiesing op 5 Desember 2000;
(2) die wens uitspreek dat alle deelnemende politieke partye en individue die kiesregulasies soos voorgeskryf ten nouste sal nakom en eerbiedig; en
(3) met kommer kennis neem van naamlose plakkate waarop ‘n bebloede Israeliese vlag uitgebeeld word en wat as deel van die verkiesingsveldtog gebruik word. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, I move without notice -
That the Council -
(1) expresses itself in favour of free and fair local government elections on 5 December 2000;
(2) expresses the wish that all participating political parties and individuals will closely comply with the electoral regulations as prescribed; and
(3) notes with concern the nameless posters on which a bloodied Israeli flag is depicted and which are being used as part of the election campaign.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENTS BY MAYORAL CANDIDATE MR PETER MARAIS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that the DA’s mayoral candidate for the Cape Town unicity has been an embarrassment to himself, his party and the people of Cape Town with his recent irrational, irresponsible and delusional statements;
(2) further notes that every time Mr Marais opens his mouth in public he puts his foot in it with statements that range from sexism, racism and anti-Semitism to egotism;
(3) warns the people of Cape Town that the foot-and-mouth disease has spread to the Western Cape; and [Laughter.]
(4) recommends that Capetonians place Mr Marais and the DA under immediate quarantine until further notice and until the DA has taken Peter Marais’ foot out of his mouth.
[Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to that motion? [Interjections.]
Mr P J MARAIS (Western Cape): Chairperson, I would like to move a motion …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! No, sit down, hon member.
Mr P J MARAIS (Western Cape): … that the ANC …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! No, Mr Marais. Mr Marais, you almost did what Ms Ntwanambi was accusing you of, and I am not going to allow you to do it in this House. [Interjections.] We move on then, hon members. There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.
Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, on a point of order: The previous speaker referred to the DA. According to your ruling there is no such party.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Dr Conroy, you know what? This Chairperson tries to listen as carefully as possible, especially when Mr Van Niekerk is in the House. The member, at the beginning of her motion, which has now become notice of a motion, stated ``the DA candidate in the forthcoming municipal elections’’. [Interjections.] I think I need say no more.
INFLAMING OF PASSIONS DURING MUNICIPAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND NEED TO UPHOLD ELECTORAL CODE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C BOTHA: Madam Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) condemns without equivocation the blatant and inflammatory anti- Semitism evident in the illegal posters erected in the Western Cape, purportedly printed by the ``Friends of Palestine’’;
(2) asks all political parties publicly to dissociate themselves from the message carried by the posters;
(3) supports repeated calls to the Northern Free State ANC …
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: I am not averse to the contents of the proposed motion, but such a motion was already passed. A similar motion was passed by Mr Van Niekerk.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! That is not a point of order.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, in terms of the Rules, if a motion deals …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I will deal with it in terms of the procedure, Mr Surty. Ms Botha, proceed. Ms C BOTHA: Thank you, Madam Chair. I continue:
(3) supports repeated calls to the Northern Free State ANC to reject the utterances of its Viljoenskroon ANC mayor and local government candidate who, over a loudhailer and in front of the homes of two DA candidates, ascribed the horrific deaths of a man in Sasolburg and a child in Bloemfontein to the ``boerepartye’’; and
(4) requests the Deputy President to reiterate the need for all political parties in the coming election to uphold the electoral code of conduct and also that all freely elected representatives heed the call of the Constitution to heal the divisions of the past and lay the foundation for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Ms Botha, I allowed you to read the motion. The motion is very much the same in substance as a motion read a few moments ago and agreed to by the House. I will look at both the content of your motion and that of one previously read and adopted by the House, and I will offer my ruling on whether we will allow any process with respect to your motion when we meet here on 21 November 2000. I will not deal with it at this time, but I believe I am correct in my assumption that in fact a great deal of its substance, apart from the Viljoenskroon matter, relates very closely, almost in exact wording, to a motion that we agreed to a few moments ago. So I will not proceed to deal with it at this time, but will address it on 21 November 2000.
Mr M BHABHA: Mr Chairperson, when considering this, the presumption that being anti-Israeli is anti-Semitic is also incorrect.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, that is a matter you can all debate. I will deal with the substance of the motion.
FAILURE OF JOHANNESBURG STOCK EXCHANGE TO SEND REPRESENTATIVE TO AFRICAN STOCK EXCHANGE ASSOCIATION ANNUAL CONFERENCE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Madam Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with shock and dismay the failure of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange to send a representative to the African Stock Exchange Association’s annual conference held in Abuja, Nigeria, last month;
(2) recognises the institutional independence of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, but is of the opinion that its non-attendance might be interpreted as a display of contempt for economic initiatives pioneered by the African continent;
(3) recognises and applauds the positive gesture shown by Mr Mark Shuttleworth by attending the said conference at his own expense; and
(4) calls upon all influential institutions like the JSE to display support and commitment to the upliftment of the African continent so as to accelerate the realisation of the African renaissance. Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SUSPENSION OF BENNI MCCARTHY FROM INTERNATIONAL FOOTBALL MATCHES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N M RAJU: Madam Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) requests the South African Football Association (Safa) to speedily clarify the position regarding Bafana-Bafana star Benni McCarthy’s suspension from international matches for allegedly having provoked the fans in Zimbabwe in a recent international match, resulting in unfortunate deaths and injuries;
(2) regrets the fact that Fifa hastened to condemn Benni McCarthy on inconclusive evidence, especially in the light of the subsequent denial by Benni and his assertion that it was clearly a case of mistaken identity; and (3) notes that our superstar deserves unqualified support in his moment of agony and embarrassment, and pleads with Safa to resolve the issue with speedy resolve.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SUB JUDICE RULE
(Ruling)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, before proceeding, I come to my promise of yesterday that I would relook at the point of order relating to the sub judice rule which was raised by Mr Van Niekerk yesterday. I had indicated that I would come back to this matter.
Members will recall that Rev Chabaku moved a motion without notice regarding the issue of bail applications in general, and particularly the speedy manner, in her view, with which certain bail applications were processed recently.
Mr Van Niekerk asked whether her reference to the bail applications of the six policemen was in contravention of the sub judice rule. I indicated that, in my view, it was not, but that I would consider the substance of the motion, look at the wording, and amend my ruling if necessary. I have looked at the motion. The motion does not in any way expressly, either by implication or concretely, comment upon the merits of the bail application or on any other step in the prosecution of the six policemen. The sub judice rule intends to address this matter in all jurisdictions. I therefore confirm my view that the motion was not in contravention of the sub judice rule.
The intention of the sub judice rule is there to prevent us as politicians and members of Parliament from infringing on the independence of the judiciary. It is not the intention of the sub judice rule to gag members of Parliament. However, should we begin to reflect on the merits of a particular court case, the direction it is taking and so on, we would then, in that regard, begin to infringe the rule.
In this case, it was a comment on the speedy way in which the bail application was dealt with, not an indication of support or negation of the bail application, but the speed with which it was processed, and a call on further bail applications to be dealt with in a similar manner.
Therefore, there was no imputation that could be construed as being sub judice. That is my ruling, and I hope the House will accept it.
ADDRESS BY THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is my pleasure to welcome the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa to the National Council of Provinces once again. You are welcome, Deputy President. I also want to welcome various colleagues from the provinces who have come here either mandated by the provinces or led by the leaders of their delegations, the premiers of our various provinces.
Deputy President, it is now my honour to call on you to address the House. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, hon premiers, hon members of the House, I would like to begin my address to this House by formally congratulating, once again, the Paralympic team on doing us proud at the Paralympic Games in Sydney. I believe this is good news the country can enjoy. I am saying this because I know we are very fond of depressing ourselves in this country with the kind of news that is not very nice. It is important to feel proud of what our South Africans have done.
I am happy to have the opportunity to address this House on the occasion of its last full sitting. The uniqueness of the NCOP in bringing together the national, provincial and local spheres of government under one roof is evidence of co-operative governance at work. It is in this House that provinces are able to share their experiences, so that we are all informed as to what is taking place at all levels of government.
Indeed, hon members conduct their business in this House with the dignity expected of public representatives who are here to represent the people. I am aware that the Chairperson has personally visited no less than five of our provincial legislatures in the course of this year. In the NCOP, provincial governments, in particular, can learn from each other’s successes and challenges, and, in so doing, improve the quality of governance and the pace of delivery to our people. I note, as well, that the NCOP has amended a significant number of Bills that have been tabled before it this year. This is, once again, clear evidence of provincial governments and organised local government impacting on the national legislative process. Hon members have not failed to carry out their duties.
As we end this year it is worth noting some of the achievements that we, as a country, have made. Among other things, South Africa, ably led by President Mbeki, has firmly established itself and its presence within the international community. This has been done in record time, if we take into account the fact that we have only been formally admitted to the community of nations in the past six years.
We have been invited to address all the major international conferences, and have succeeded in putting across the views of the developing countries and, more particularly, the views and the plight of the African countries.
We have succeeded in getting the developed countries to acknowledge that steps need to be taken to reduce the debt burden of the developing countries. We have set our country on the correct economic path.
Recently, the President hosted a meeting of 25 of the world’s top economists, including the World Bank president, James Wolfensohn. The deputy managing director of the International Monetary Fund, Eduardo Aninat, who was also at the meeting, remarked afterwards, and I quote:
We are comforted with the degree of progress in relation to the macroeconomic side. The country is now in a new phase where it should continue to foster investment, increased growth and more jobs.
Whilst looking at our successes, we need to recognise that we still have a lot of challenges. One of these is the moral degeneration of our society. I addressed the National Assembly on 31 October 2000, and given the importance of the matter, I would like to emphasise it again here. I quote to the House from my address of that day. I said:
To be able to address this challenge as a country, we cannot ignore the impact that our past has had on our present, for the apartheid legacy not only dehumanised some communities and individuals, but also caused untold damage in many ways.
I said that the previous Government ``introduced extreme intolerance and because it had to be maintained through extreme violence, it encouraged violence at every level of society’’.
We were recently forced to confront the dehumanisation that I spoke about in the National Assembly when, on our television screens, we saw horrific footage of members of our Police Service setting their dogs upon three defenceless and helpless men. The experience has shown us how certain people in our society have lost respect for human dignity and human life. It also showed us how members of our Police Service have been so mentally brutalised by upholding apartheid that they have lost all sense of what is right and what is wrong.
Our hearts go out to Gabriel and Alexander Ntimane, and their friend, Sylvester Mathonsi, for the pain and trauma they suffered. Our hearts go out also to the families and friends of their tormentors. Many of us will not stop to think about this, but they find themselves having to confront an ugly truth that their loved ones, who protect, love and nurture them, are capable of inflicting such pain on other fellow humans.
Their acts traumatised not only their three victims shown in the video, but also all people of our country.
Thus I believe that this has been a wake-up call to all South Africans like we have seen at no other time before. I believe that the common rage expressed by South Africans from all walks of life about a single act that optimises, very distinctly, this scourge that we failed to collectively agree on as a country in August, now ought to be channelled towards bringing ourselves closer to each other as South Africans.
The work towards reconciliation that began in the early nineties and which was given impetus by our first democratic election in 1994 cannot be abandoned now. Indeed, we must build on it and together strive towards a better society in South Africa.
I repeat the call I made to the National Assembly for South Africans to embark on a major national campaign for moral renewal. We certainly need an ``RDP of the soul’’, as former President Mandela said. I urge all provincial legislatures and local governments to debate this matter of moral degeneration and look at positive ways in which they can contribute to this campaign of moral regeneration.
I believe that the majority of South Africans share our desire for a South Africa that is free from the many challenges that face them. Unfortunately, as a nation we are faced with another more deadly challenge of HIV/Aids.
I am encouraged by the work done by the provinces in fighting the pandemic. Most have launched provincial Aids councils that will enable them to pool together their efforts. We are encouraged also by reports which indicate that our campaign against HIV/Aids is yielding results. South Africans are beginning to take responsibility for their own lives and are changing their behaviour.
As we move towards World Aids Day on December 1, we appeal to members of this House and structures in all the provinces to assist us in taking the anti-Aids struggle forward. Together we can beat the disease.
There are many challenges that we face. The hopes of our people are pinned upon us as leaders in the different spheres of government and as public representatives. We need to work together to address these challenges. The cry from our people is clear. They are not interested in party-political point scoring. They want development. They just want to be a nation, and they want the scourge of HIV/Aids to be defeated.
In our political activity in this House and in our local government electioneering we need to ensure that whatever we are doing is advancing the interests of South Africa as a whole.
As public representatives we should identify key national priority issues around which we must work to unite this country: the kind of issues that we should agree not to play politics with, and around which we must demonstrate patriotism in the process of our nation-building.
Similarly, the issue of traditional leadership is one that has taken centre stage in recent times. I am happy to report that we met with the coalition of traditional leaders yesterday. This meeting took place at the request of the amakhosi to discuss the proposed Local Government: Municipal Structures Second Amendment Bill. At the meeting, it was agreed that there would be continuous interaction between Government and the amakhosi with a view to finding common ground before the passage of the Bill by Parliament.
In line with the President’s undertaking in this very House when he said that to:
… ensure that we give real content to the objective contained in our Constitution to respect the institution of traditional leadership …
a special Cabinet committee has been formed with the aim of continuing to seek appropriate and long-lasting solutions to the matter of traditional authority in our country.
Lastly, I would like to wish all political parties contesting the forthcoming local government elections well. I also take this opportunity to encourage all South Africans to exercise their hard-won right to vote and help us build our local government structures.
I wish all members well during the coming holidays. The Minister of Transport has asked me to appeal to all members this afternoon not to drink and drive during the holidays.
I want to take this opportunity too, as the Chairperson of the SA National Aids Council, to remind all South Africans of the ABCs of our campaign against Aids: Abstain, Be faithful and, if all else fails, Condomise. [Applause.]
The PREMIER OF GAUTENG (Mr M S Shilowa): Chairperson, Deputy President and hon members, the overwhelming majority of South Africans who voted in the June 1999 elections said, without equivocation, that we should move with more speed to change the lives of all South Africans for the better.
Every piece of legislation we pass, policy we formulate and programme we implement is premised on that mandate.
What is more important for us is that the people should not wait until the end of our mandate to ask what we did to fulfil that mandate. As they feel the impact that our policies and programmes have on their lives, they will make it known. They will let us know if we are veering off the course they chose for the country. If we remain on course, they will encourage us to move on.
Looking at the messages and responses we have been receiving regarding the work that Government is doing in our province, I can say without doubt that we remain on that course the people chose. This is what the people themselves say, because they can already feel the positive impact of the policies and programmes we have implemented during the period under review.
Mama Sarah Sekese, a 101-year-old pensioner from Vosloorus, had this to say as she received the title deed to a house apartheid did not allow her to own, and I quote:
I have no more worries. I have a house and a home now. I have lived in so many houses in these 101 years, but now I have a home.
It is not through coincidence that we have responded positively to Mama Sekese’s wish, and others like her; it is because we are a caring Government that responds to the needs of the poorest of the poor.
An awareness campaign on the devastating impact that HIV/Aids can have on society has continued to enjoy top priority in Gauteng. This is a campaign that demands the mobilisation of all citizens, Government and political parties, and all sectors of our society. It demands the effective implementation of a multipronged and comprehensive strategy of social mobilisation, prevention, care and support.
Our policy and programmes are based on the thesis that HIV causes Aids. Our awareness and prevention programmes are based on the ABC message. An important focus in our efforts to prevent HIV/Aids has been the promotion of safe sex and the prevention and treatment of sexually transmitted diseases. There are early indications that our strategies are beginning to work, and that there is a lot that we as Government, together with other sectors, are doing right.
We are currently distributing over seven million condoms a month in Gauteng. This is an increase of two million condoms since last year. The steady increase in the demand for condoms means that the message ``abstain, be faithful, wear a condom’’ has started to get through.
Interventions through programmes in Carletonville are showing a decline in STDs, a clear signal that our programmes are beginning to yield results.
We have introduced life skills programmes in all schools in Gauteng. We have trained 350 trainers from district offices and they in turn have trained educators in schools throughout the province. Every primary school gets R1 000 and every high school R1 500 for specific HIV/Aids programmes.
We have set in place an integrated programme involving the Departments of Health and Social Services, together with local government, NGOs and community-based organisations to focus on home-based care for people living with Aids and their families. Over 50 pilot projects are in operation and have received an overwhelming response from the community, with religious organisations and traditional healers playing a key role.
The challenge we continue to face is to ensure that people who are infected with HIV/Aids and those suffering from Aids are not seen as outcasts in our society. We have to create an environment for society to accept the fact that ``my friend who is HIV-positive is still my friend’’.
In addition to the existing pilot research projects at the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital and Coronation Hospital in the province, focusing on the prevention of mother-to-child transmission through the use of the antiretroviral drug Nevirapine, the Premier’s Committee on Aids in Gauteng has decided to expand research sites to cover more hospitals and local clinics in the province. These include Natalspruit, Leratong, Johannesburg and Garankuwa Hospitals and local clinics in Vosloorus, Carletonville, Hillbrow, Zondi and Soshanguve.
The province has, in addition to its health budget, set aside R25 million from its own budget to ensure that we deal with the scourge of HIV/Aids. While there are clear, positive signals on the horizon, we cannot for a moment afford to be complacent.
The move in our province from hospital-based to clinic-based care as part of the primary health care programme is proving to be a major success. At least seven out of ten patients are now seen in clinics close to where they live or work, as opposed to hospitals.
While the recent report of Statistics South Africa on poverty rated Gauteng as the richest province in the country, the scourge of poverty remains our biggest challenge. There remain many poor people in Gauteng, particularly in informal settlements and rural areas, who still have no proper water supply and sanitation.
Social security is one of the major poverty alleviation mechanisms. This programme caters for an average of 380 000 people monthly, the majority of whom are the elderly who receive old age pensions. While the target set for us for the current financial year is 51 570 in terms of social child grants, 95 491 children were receiving grants by the end of October, which means we have already gone beyond our target for next year, which is 70 000.
As we promised, the processing of pensions and the time spent in long queues has improved dramatically.
We know, though, that people want to be able to earn an income to support themselves, their families and their communities. They want to be economically active, they want skills, jobs and to own and run their own enterprises.
In February this year, we announced 10 Gauteng spatial development initiative projects, aimed at lifting the economy to a higher growth path and creating the jobs that lie at the heart of our efforts to build a better life. We set aside R1,2 billion from our own budget to deal with this matter.
These projects represent a strategic intervention to reshape the economy through realigning the manufacturing sector towards higher value-added production and focusing on new growth sectors, in particular, ``smart’’ industries such as IT and telecommunications and the development of business services.
We are on track with the Gauteng rail link project, which will provide our economy with a quality high-speed train to link Pretoria, Johannesburg and the Johannesburg International Airport.
A range of steps we took since last year to deal with the problems in the minibus-taxi industry have resulted in much-improved co-operation between the taxi industry and the provincial government. The launch of the Gauteng Taxi Council bears testimony to this. This marked a departure from a culture of violence and all its related ills towards a culture of engagement and a commitment to research for appropriate solutions.
I want to conclude by saying that there are three things that I thought were important to make mention of. We share a strong commitment to working for the success of the NCOP. This is the forum that provides us with an opportunity to raise issues of key national concern and engagement.
However, increasingly, we are finding that the NCOP is programming its work in such a way that, at times, the provinces are unable to make any meaningful contribution based on proper mandates.
We know that it may have nothing to do with those who run the NCOP, but we think it is important that the matter is addressed. We must ensure that we stick with the agreed four-week cycles, and timeously involve and engage the provinces on all work being processed by the NCOP.
The other issue that we want to raise, Comrade Deputy President, is that while steps are being taken to ensure a multidisciplinary approach to service delivery, more could be done, especially as concerns rural development and the regeneration of urban areas such as Alex. We will soon be making a proposal to the national Government on how all three spheres of government can work together to radically change areas such as Alex in Gauteng.
As I said at the beginning, the people themselves should, through their own life experiences and on the basis of the impact of the policies, programmes and all other initiatives that they have in their lives, tell us whether or not we remain on the course they chose for our country. They are our main opinion-makers. [Applause.]
Mr M L MUSHWANA: Mr Chairperson, hon Deputy President, this being the last but one debate in this Chamber, and as a presiding officer doomed into a corner of neutrality, I have decided to focus my debate on the NCOP as a second Chamber of Parliament or, as it is conventionally called, the Upper House.
Hon MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr M L MUSHWANA: The status and identity of the NCOP have often been and continue to be the subject of contradictions. At times, it is even questioned and chastised by some of the very people who put it in place. [Interjections.]
Recently, newspapers have been abuzz with statements such as The NCOP
lacks the oomph expected of anUpper House,’’ and ``Members of the NCOP
are an inferior breed of politicians dumped in the House by their
respective parties; the best ones are consigned to the National Assembly.’’
[Laughter.]
A certain Minister, quoted as ``anonymous’’ in the press, is alleged to have said that the NCOP is an unnecessary House, as by the time a Bill is tabled in Parliament, the relevant Minister has already taken provincial interests into account. The report goes on to say that the NCOP is failing to perform its oversight function and that the system of special delegates should be discarded. The litany of accusations goes on and on.
I do not intend to grace these foregoing allegations with a response at any length. I believe NCOP members must implement the mandate of our Constitution and must not in any way be expected to please specific individuals who may be prejudiced against the NCOP. More so, if it is the NCOP which has an oversight function over the executive and not vice versa, any suggestion that the allegations I have referred to above emanate from an audit report commissioned by the Department of Provincial and Local Government and if, indeed, that is so - the author of the report is ignorant of the provisions of the Constitution and, in particular, of the national legislative processes. NCOP members are fully aware that the task that faces them is more urgent and exacting.
I need to state that the NCOP is specifically tasked to promote and protect provincial interest, and this they do by scrutinising national legislation with a view to ensure that provincial interest is adequately catered for in all legislation. Members of the NCOP ensure that provincial mandates are incorporated into national legislation. In general, they ensure that all legislation passed by Parliament is aligned to circumstances prevailing at provincial level. The provincial tone and blend thus become the golden thread that runs through all Acts of Parliament. After all, all people are located within the provincial level, and therefore, these laws are applicable to them.
The NCOP also provides a forum for public consideration of issues affecting provinces. This task and function, if properly executed, ensures that provinces and local governments, in a way, participate in the formulation and shaping of national policies which affect them. In conformity with its task of providing a forum for public consideration of issues which affect provinces, the NCOP hosted a workshop, for instance, in response to the flood disaster which ravaged our country. International experts on disaster management attended this workshop. Provinces and the relevant departments were also present, and thus provinces participated in the formulation of a national policy on disaster management.
Yet another workshop was initiated and convened by the NCOP and, together with the National Assembly, brought together all provinces at an SMME workshop. Local and national governments were also represented. It is important to note that prior to this workshop all provinces held public hearings to solicit information and ideas on how best, and what steps should be taken, to fast-track the development of SMMEs, which, for some reasons, were not growing as fast as they should. The NCOP served as a co- ordinator, as the Deputy President has correctly pointed out, and it is the only Chamber which brings together all spheres of government.
The Constitution enjoins all spheres of government to maintain a certain level of co-operation and to maintain sound relationship with one another. The concept of co-operative governance as enshrined in our Constitution is best realised within the NCOP. The NCOP can aptly be said to be the citadel of co-operative governance.
Let us look at interventions in terms of section 139. These interventions are sanctioned and supervised by the National Council of Provinces. The NCOP approves or disapproves interventions in terms of section 139, and it decides and recommends when interventions should end or be continued. During the past three years there have been a number of such interventions which the NCOP carried out excellently. Since then, about seven interventions have been made and better relationships established within municipalities.
Let me mention a few activities in which the NCOP also engaged regarding which it could be said to be helping in the formulation of national policies and creating a forum where provinces shared views and ideas. For instance, debates were held on topics such as the promotion of multiligualism in a democratic South Africa, an integrated programme for land distribution and agricultural development in South Africa, provincial perspectives on challenges regarding and efforts towards reconciliation and nation-building, racial attacks and many other similar topics.
Finally, looking at the SA Local Government Association, the NCOP also provides a forum where local government is able to participate.
There are some difficulties which the NCOP still faces, but it is important to note that although the NCOP is considered redundant as some would see it
- I want to highlight this point - the NCOP has effected some amendments,
even to section 75 legislation. For instance, in the period 1997 to date, a
total of 37 amendments have been effected by the NCOP. Of these, the
National Assembly accepted 35.
Amendments to section 76 legislation from the period 1997 to date totalled
- Of these, the National Assembly accepted 23. Recently, the NCOP suggested amendments to tourism legislation, about 11 of them. When the matter was taken to mediation, nine of the amendments suggested by the NCOP were accepted. Therefore, those who think that the NCOP is a redundant House must, I think, look for faults somewhere else. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I call upon Mr P J Marais to address the House. [Interjections.] Order! Order!
Mr P J MARAIS (Western Cape): Chairperson, hon members, for so many years the majority of South Africans had the impression that they were merely tenants in this country, and a lot of us sitting here have set out and made it our job to change that. That time is now past. We are no longer tenants.
It is now time for the South African people to free themselves from the past and build a future worth having: a future free of poverty, free of hunger, free of disease, free from economic starvation; a future where the reality of Aids is realised by the central Government, and countered with the same vigour as we countered apartheid. We can do that. I have just heard the hon Premier of Gauteng mention their successes in fighting HIV. He is active, he is doing something about it. He is not blaming anybody. He says: ``I am going to do it.’’
Do hon members know that 4,2 million people were HIV-positive in South Africa at the end of 1999? In the Western Cape, 7,17% of the people are HIV- positive. A total of 5 000 babies who are HIV-positive are born here every month.
We desperately need to build a future where free people will live free lives in dignity and in security: free from hunger, free from disease, free from poverty. This future can be ours if the Government of the day realises that people from other political parties than its own are also citizens and also patriots, and should share in the wealth of this country. Let us change our approach in whatever we do: the way we approach Aids and HIV, the way we approach legislation, the way we respect those who lead us, and especially the way we approach our politics.
Let us, once and for all, do it for all the people. The wealthy too have a role: They create the jobs. It is the wealthy that can invest. They build the factories, they build the restaurants, they invest, they create the jobs.
We in the Democratic Alliance empower the unemployed to become entrepreneurs. It is as simple as that. I believe that every family should give birth to an entrepreneur. Government talks about skills training programmes and youth empowerment, but unfortunately so far it has been all talk and no action.
There are about 1 000 new people entering the job market in South Africa every day, yet our economy … [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Marais, please take your seat. What is the point of order?
Mr M V MOOSA: Madam Chair, is it in order for the member to make exactly the same speech every time he comes to the NCOP? [Laughter.]
Mr P J MARAIS: Madam Chair, in terms of the Rules of this House … [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Marais, please hold on and allow me to respond.
Mr Moosa, that is not a point of order. Could members please desist from making spurious points of order! We have a very long debate to get through. Members could encourage other members to make their particular views known, if they would like to, or ensure that they are on the speaker’s list.
Mr Marais, you may continue.
Mr P J MARAIS: Madam Chair, if he did not speak, we would have thought that he is ignorant and stupid. Now he has confirmed that by speaking. [Interjections.] I said that there are about 1 000 new people entering the job market in South Africa every day, yet our economy is losing jobs at an average of 408 per day. We are losing this fight against unemployment. We must change our approach.
Let me quote what was reported in the media this week: ``Not one cent of the R855 million in the Umsombumbu Fund has yet been spent.’’ [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Umsobomvu Fund!
Mr P J MARAIS: What is in a name? [Laughter.] It is a fact that the ANC laughs when people are starving. That is a joke! I am saying that R855 million of a fund set up to fight poverty has not been spent. I expected them to cry, but there is laughter. What has happened to the R240 million raised by the National Lottery so far? Why has it not been spent on poverty? When are they going to spend the R455 million worth of poverty relief funds that remain unspent nationally in the 1999-2000 Welfare budget? The poor are waiting; they are restless, but those members are laughing. We have to change our approach.
I am glad that the Deputy President has addressed the issue of morality and the moral degeneration of our society. I would like to thank him for that. Yes, apartheid has dehumanised people. Yes, we have to change that. But how do we start? When do we start with this new revolution of the mind?
I was once criticised for saying that if I had to choose on moral issues, I would choose what the Bible says. The Constitution permits what the Bible forbids. It is as simple as that. It does not say that one must not do this or that, and it also does not say that one cannot do it, but it permits it. The Bible forbids some of these things, and as a Christian I have to choose on moral grounds. And I stand by that.
But the same people who accuse me of not being true to the Constitution, which I respect, do not uphold section 27(b) of the very Constitution, which states that, and I quote:
Everyone has the right to have access to sufficient food and water.
You have given me water, but where is the food? [Laughter.]
It states in subsection 2, and I quote:
The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of each of these rights.
They are sitting with R1,5 billion in total which they have not spent. So they have the resources, but they make a big fuss about free water. I ask them: why do they not read the whole sentence in the Constitution? Where is the food?
No department in Government is charged directly with monitoring or ensuring the realisation of the right to food. The Department of Agriculture has reported that - and I want to quote from the Human Rights Commission report here - it ``does not consider itself responsible for household food security’’.
In addition, the Department of Agriculture argues that, and I quote:
The right of access to food does not necessarily mean that Government should see to it that every citizen has food to eat every day.
[Interjections.] The quotation comes from this commission’s report.
A further question which is begging the point is that although the same section 27 clearly states that, and I quote:
Everyone has the right to have access to social security, including, if they are unable to support themselves and their dependants, appropriate social assistance …
And subsection 2 says:
The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures within its available resources to achieve the progressive realisation of each of these rights.
What plans do they have in place for the women who have children over the age of seven when the current grant maintenance system ends in March next year?
An HON MEMBER: Nothing! [Interjections.]
Mr P J MARAIS: These are the challenges. The Deputy President’s Government said that only children up to the age of seven years old will get the grant
- not higher than seven. What plans do they have in place to ensure that those children have food? [Interjections.]
Mr T B TAABE: Madam Chairperson, will the hon member take a question? Mr P J MARAIS: I will not answer any questions, Madam Chairperson. That is just a ploy to take away my time. I asked, what plans does this Government have in place for those 54 000 women in the Western Cape alone who will lose their maintenance grant during March next year? Are they getting any income now?
An HON MEMBER: That is a blatant lie.
Mr P J MARAIS: They are either not upholding the Constitution or they simply do not have these women at heart. [Interjections.]
Is it because the present Government has also fallen into the trap of the previous dispensation, where they simply believe they cannot do anything wrong? They have also fallen into the trap of thinking that they cannot make a mistake; they cannot do anything wrong, even if people starve. Because they have done it, it must be right.
Government has a responsibility to act first for all the people in this country before acting for other people in other countries. They can find money very quickly to send people on an excursion into Lesotho. They can find money very quickly to go to the Congo. But if we ask for money to give the poor food, they tell us … iphelile [ … it is finished]. Interjections.]
Hon MEMBERS: Uyaxoka wena [You are lying].
Mr P J MARAIS: Chairperson, charity begins at home, and it shows in the Western Cape. Cape Town is our mother city - a microcosm of this country. It is a talked-about town. It is a city of culture, a city of joy, a city of people, and we believe that we can make it a city of opportunities. [Interjections.]
Who are the people of Cape Town? How can we recognise them? If those members think that there is anybody in the ANC that I am scared of debating with, then they do not know me. [Interjections.]
I am sure that they are feeling the hurt of my words. [Interjections.] And although what I am saying is right, the ANC has become fat cats who do not care about the poor. [Interjections.] They have become the fat cats of this country and that is why they are making all this noise. [Interjections.] The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members! Mr Marais, would you stop for a moment. Could I advise you to address the Chair with your comments.
Mr P J MARAIS: Madam Chairperson, I will address the Chair gladly. These things that I am talking about upset me.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Your time is still on. You will have your time. Could I ask you to address the Chair? And could I also ask hon members to allow the member to speak? Proceed, Mr Marais.
Mr P J MARAIS: Madam Chairperson, I knew that I would come here and make an impression! [Interjections.]
We cannot retain our infant political freedom if more than half of our people are enslaved by poverty. It is as simple as that. No matter how much one boasts about how one has been in jail or on Robben Island, if one’s people starve, if one’s people are hungry, where is their freedom? [Time expired.]
Mr M E SURTY: Chairperson, it is a privilege to speak after the sanctimonious, Bible-punching, provincial MEC who pretends that he has the Constitution at heart and yet publicly proclaims that we should dismiss this Constitution and choose the Bible. We ask him: What about his Jewish colleagues, what about his Hindu colleagues, what about his Muslim colleagues? The speaker reminds one of Rip Van Winkle. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Surty, would you take your seat? Hon members and Mr Marais, I am presiding. I do not need your assistance to maintain order in this House. Mr Ackermann, do you have a point of order?
Mnr C ACKERMANN: Mevrou die Voorsitter, ek wil graag hê dat die Stoel na die toespraak tot dusver van mnr Surty sal kyk. Die aantygings wat hy maak, is oor sekere uitlatings van mnr Marais uit ‘n bybelse oogpunt, wat mnr Surty se eie interpretasie weerspieël, en ek vra dat die Stoel asseblief hierdie aantygings moet ondersoek. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr C ACKERMANN: Mr Chairperson, I would like the Chair to have a look at Mr Surty’s speech thus far. The allegations which he is making is about certain remarks Mr Marais made from a biblical point of view, which reflects Mr Surty’s own interpretation and I ask the Chair to please investigate these allegations.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Ackermann, with due respect, that is not a point of order. Mr Surty, proceed.
Mr M E SURTY: Chairperson, I trust I will get injury time for the innate and inane interjection by Mr Ackermann.
Perhaps I should congratulate Mr Marais for being given the dubious award of ``mampara of the week.’’ [Laughter.] He has made this very, very clear. He reminds … [Interjections.] This is what he would do. He does not give anybody else an opportunity to speak, while we gave him the benefit of addressing this House. I think he should preserve the dignity of this House. [Interjections.]
Mr Marais has said quite publicly that the Constitution was written by communists. He is very much like Rip Van Winkle who slept through a social and political revolution while the entire world watched in all great amazement at this very transparent participatory process, where NGOs, civil society, all political parties including his own - the New NP and its alliance partner, the DP - were participated. They were part and parcel of a process that was public and which endured for a period of two years. That is the Constitution that was regarded as the birth certificate or the soul of the nation.
That is the Constitution to which Mr Marais as a public representative had sworn allegiance and loyalty. That is the Constitution that every public representative should respect. As a public representative who shows contempt for and no loyalty to the Constitution and the supreme law of the land, we are amazed that his party is neither censuring him or that he even retains the position of a political office bearer. It is rather disappointing that such a man, who has no respect for the supremacy of this Constitution here, would now want to assume the office of mayor of this beautiful city. [Interjections.]
Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Mr Marais has put his foot in his mouth. [Laughter.]
Mr M E SURTY: I think that is an appropriate comment that has been made by my colleague. I will not address a wounded cowboy who shoots blanks all the way, sitting on a lame ass and hobbling towards the sunset. [Laughter.] I think the braying of an ass is usually ignored. [Laughter.] I will devote my attention to what I have come to this House to do and that is to speak … [Interjections.]
Mr P J MARAIS (Western Cape): Make a credible speech for once in your life!
Mr M E SURTY: Mr Marais has not had the benefit … [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Proceed, Mr Surty.
Mr M E SURTY: Thank you, Chairperson. I will address the Chair.
On behalf of the Premier of the North West, Mr Popo Molefe, I would like to convey his apologies for not being here. He is engaged and participating in the legislative programme of the North West.
We are heartened to hear and listen to the Deputy President raise issues that have, in fact, been dealt with in this House. He has quite pertinently raised the issue of racism. We would like to draw his attention to the fact that, unlike Mr Marais, this House has sought, in a very constructive and concerted way, to draw political parties from across the spectrum to deal with issues that confront this nation in a focused and united way. It was only on Thursday last week that all political parties and provinces shared and supported a motion, quite universally, condemning the racism and brutality of the people in the Police Service who assaulted and unleashed vicious dogs on three black persons.
This reflected that this nation and its public representatives, unlike what Mr Marais is trying to portray, are capable of uniting against the demon of racism. [Interjections.] Now the North West province has had the ability … Mr Marais, you seek to interject whenever I speak. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Surty, please address the Chair.
Mr M E SURTY: Chairperson, we, too, have experienced racism in the North West province at the Stella police station. As was clearly reflected in the electronic and print media, we had clear evidence of racism within the Police Service. The government of the North West immediately intervened and ensured that the police station was appropriately transformed.
We all know in this Council of the difficulties, battles and challenges racism poses to the community of Vryburg. Again, the government of North West is faced with a particular challenge, not only in changing the mindsets of the youth and the teachers, but also those of the parents. The Department of Education is taking appropriate steps to ensure that they inculcate in the children a respect and a tolerance for each other in order to ensure that our schools are integrated and, particularly, to ensure that governing bodies play an appropriate role in ensuring the enhancement and development of our children in that they promote a culture of nonracialism and nonsexism.
In regard to the issue of traditional authorities, we are proud to announce, through the House of Traditional Leaders, that we have been able to maintain good relationships of mutual respect in which traditional leaders respect the competencies and authority of government and, government, likewise, respects the competencies of traditional leaders. We have been in continual engagement with traditional leaders, and we are proud to say that the North West province is one of the areas in which relationships between traditional leaders and the government can be regarded as excellent.
In regard to HIV/Aids, the North West government has dealt with the matter at three levels. It has dealt with HIV/Aids in terms of a programme of action at local government and at a regional level, focusing particularly on the rural areas where many of our men and women are afflicted by HIV/Aids, and then at provincial level.
The programme of the North West province has aligned itself with the National Aids Council of South Africa. The mandate that has been given is to give advice to provincial governments on HIV/Aids and sexually transmitted diseases; to involve all sectors of civil society in the implementation of programmes of Government; to monitor and co-ordinate the implementation of programmes and strategies of national Government; to create and strengthen an awareness in society, to focus particularly on the rural areas and to ensure also that the programme of HIV/Aids is carried through to our schools and learning institutions.
It is rather unfortunate that nowhere in any public statement or on any poster of the Democratic Alliance have we seen poverty or the poor being referred to, or reflected. Now, for the first time, Mr Marais notices that there is one uniform message of the ANC, which states that irrespective of whether one lives in Khayelitsha, Gugulethu, Rylands or anywhere else, together we can accelerate change and fight against poverty.
That is the statement that has touched the soul of this nation, because it is not contradictory. The ANC does not conveniently put up posters in Clifton which say: ``Fight against rates,’’ and not put them up in Rylands, because one knows that the people in Rylands are paying for the rates of those residents in Clifton. [Interjections.] One does not see that.
Now poverty becomes an issue for the first time for the Democratic Alliance. This is total and blatant hypocrisy. [Interjections.] I think Rip van Winkle slept through a social and political revolution, and has now discovered that there is a new democratic dispensation and cannot come to grips with the nonracialism and the nonsexism. To give hon members an example, looking at the chairpersons of the district councils in the Cape, of the 30 candidates 25 are white and four are coloured, while 25 of those whites and coloureds are male, and one is a white female. This is the extent of nonracialism and nonsexism that is practised by the DA.
They want to tell us, We are living in a nonracial and nonsexist
dispensation.'' [Interjections.] They want to tell us, in this Chamber,
We care for the poor,’’ with the legacy that they have brought to this
House. They say, We want to look after our wealthy,'' quite categorically
and strategically, andWe are not concerned about the poor,’’ and now
they pretend. They quote the Constitution for their benefit. They utilise
the Bible for their benefit, for their political gain. They have no regard
for religion. They have absolutely shown contempt for the Constitution.
People like Mr Marais, who mislead this House and who treat women with contempt, do not deserve a place in the service of the public as public representatives. If he had the courage of his convictions, if he was a man, he would then say, ``Miss Lynne Brown, we are willing to engage in debate.’’ [Interjections.] When things become hot he either shouts like a lunatic or, alternatively, he walks away from a meeting. [Interjections.]
We, as the ANC, have had our say. We will continue unashamedly and publicly to be committed to the transformation of the people in our country, committed to the eradication of poverty and to the upliftment of the quality of life of our people. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, Deputy President, it need not be argued and proved that a developing country needs the talent, the expertise and the dedication of all its people. It is particularly true for South Africa where a dream was born: a dream of an African renaissance.
To succeed, to create the birth of a wave of development that will flow over to the other states in Africa will require South Africa to harness all its reserves and potential in human resources. Are we doing just that? Are we really retaining our human resources that can really act as stimuli for the birth of the African renaissance? [Interjections.] Let me be not just blunt, but honest. The answer is a simple, but clear no. [Interjections.]
Van ons beste breinkrag, in die besonder in die geledere van ons jongmense, is besig om ons land in hulle hordes te verlaat. Dit is ‘n harde werklikheid dat daar onder ons jongmense ‘n groeiende benadering is om hulle heil elders te gaan soek. Het iemand hulle al gekonfronteer en gevra hoekom dit die geval is? Het die agb Adjunkpresident hom dit al afgevra waarom dit so is?
‘n Mens sal by baie mense oppervlakkige antwoorde kry wat seker dit sou toeskryf aan die wittes wat nie wil aanpas nie. As agb lede dit glo, is hul ver van die waarheid af. Nee, alle jongmense soek ‘n toekoms waar hulle aanvaar sal word vir wat hulle is, vir hoe hulle presteer en waar meriete die enigste maatstaf is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Some of our best brainpower, particularly among the ranks of our young people, is leaving our country on a large scale. It is a harsh reality that one increasingly encounters an approach among our young people of seeking their fortune elsewhere. Has anyone yet confronted them and asked them why this is the case? Has the hon the Deputy President asked himself why this is happening?
One will receive superficial answers from many people who will probably attribute this to the whites who do not want to adapt. If hon members believe that, they are far from the truth. No, all young people seek a future in which they will be accepted for who they are, for how they perform, and where merit is the only yardstick.]
The DP supports the principle of affirmative action. It is imperative that special programmes assist previously disadvantaged people to rise to, and achieve, their maximum potential. It is in the interest of South Africa and the very future that I am pleading for.
However, if some are advantaged simply on the basis of quotas or because if preference is given on grounds of race or background, South Africa sinks back once more into the morass of discrimination. It is exactly this that causes talented young people to seek their future elsewhere.
Dan is daar natuurlik nog ‘n rede vir die negatiewe benadering tot ons toekoms. Ek verwys hier na die geweld en die misdaad wat ons onder die voorstes in die wêreld in hierdie kategorie plaas. As roof, verkragting, kapings en marteling ‘n deel van ons daaglikse bestaan geword het, as hierdie dinge voortduur, kan niemand verwag om lojale, toegewyde en optimistiese landsburgers te sien nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Then, of course, there is another reason for the negative approach to our future. Here I am referring to the violence and crime which are placing us among the forerunners in the world in this category. When robbery, rape, hijacking and torture have become part of our existence, when these things continue, no one can expect to see loyal, dedicated and optimistic citizens in our country.]
We all witnessed with horror the ghastly scenes of savagery on our television screens those of police dogs and so on. Of course, we all condemn that in the strongest possible way, but tonight members can watch Special Assignment on their television screens, and they will see those dogs attacking a white person. So, after all, it was merely … [Interjections.] So, this was not a brutal racist incident. The crucial point is to find a way of creating a kind of society where such incidents do not occur.
There are the symptoms of a sick society. In my view, it all has an effect on the loyalty of South Africans. The Government cannot buy loyalty from its citizens. One must earn loyalty and support.
Ms L BROWN (Western Cape): Madam Chairperson, hon Deputy President and hon colleagues, little did I think in 1994, as we were entering our various democratic legislatures, that I would be standing here today and calling for a revolution. For that is what we need in this country, a revolution of the mind, the spirit and the soul.
Our transition to democracy - a goal for which we fought so hard in a struggle to which we lost parents, brothers, sisters, and friends - is in danger of being soured by the lack of care in our society. This lack of care, dignity, and pride in our own worth as human beings, manifests itself as lawlessness, cruelty, and abuse.
The other day I visited a pension pay-out point, and a group of pensioners was having a monthly meeting. They opened with prayers and in their prayers they prayed for chairs to sit on so that they would not have to stand for long hours in the cold and in the heat.
This is not a big thing for our parents, our aunts and uncles to ask for. This is not a big request to place at the doorstep of the MEC for Social Services. This is a small step that we could take to at least show a little bit of care for the elderly. Is it not something that every community could not assist in - providing for those who have cooked our food for years, who nursed us when we were young, and cared for us and our children? So often we hear the rich cry: ``Tell us how we can help you.’’ But when one points out the way, they close their hands.
We need to build a society that cares, not only for itself, or for those in their prime, but also for those who should be resting after a long journey. But a society cannot build care if it does not have pride in its past, present and in its future - its children. Our past is obscured in the ravages of exploitation and slavery, which played such a cruel role in destroying our heritage. The cries of slaves echo in the flagstones of the streets around this very House. It is time for all of us to confront and embrace that past.
Whether we were the slaves or the owners, the victims or the victors, the invader or the invaded, in our past lies our salvation, for in our future lies our hope.
Those who are descendants of the victors, the invaders and conquerors carry a terrible burden for which they must not be punished. But it is only when they acknowledge that burden, when they admit and reject the sins of the past, and when the daughters and sons of the vanquished take their hands and help them cleanse the blood, joining together in a dance of hope, that our souls will be cleansed.
This century has not been kind to our land. We have seen communities destroyed by greed. We have seen people forced out of their homes, and we have seen the spirits of our people broken. And now that the chains of division have been cast aside, instead of a commitment to the good of our nation, we see a horrible greed and selfishness and a quest for the shining idols of the consumer society. We see children who demand that their mothers use their meagre savings to buy them designer clothes. We see the gods of soap operas replacing the good of our people.
Some of us go to church on Sunday and we feel good because we praise the Lord. But when we go home, we close our hearts to the stranger standing at the gate. We turn our heads the other way when a child clutches at our sleeve or runs to our car window. We forget that these children who live on our streets are our own. They are our own children whom we have forgotten to feed. We cannot put the blame on anyone but ourselves. We live in a province that runs itself, a province that has to take care of itself. We live in a country that runs itself, and we cannot blame each other for these problems. We have to take responsibility for them, because every child belongs to anyone who is a parent.
Those who deny that our society has terrible racial divides have their heads buried in the sand. In the city there are citizens who never cross the lines that divide where the haves and the have-nots live. Many of these divides, the highways that transverse our city, are as impregnable as the Berlin Wall.
Those who say that they want to change things or want to play a role, but do not know how, I will tell them how. They should get into their cars and visit pension queues in the townships and see the poverty in which our grandmothers and grandfathers live. I am sure that they will find something that they can contribute to make their pain a little easier.
As the Deputy President has correctly said, the television footage that shocked our nation last week was a clarion call for all of us, whatever our political allegiance, religion or race. All of us who claim to care for the good of our society should raise our voices in one song to fight for a just society and a caring society that is united in its diversity and its pride. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Deputy President, colleagues, it is a pleasure to follow on such a cool, calm and collected speaker. [Applause.]
Firstly, I would like to apologise on behalf of my Premier who had another commitment and was unable to be here with the Council today. [Interjections.] That member should forget about the plane. What about all the planes that they had in their day when they were running government? [Interjections.]
When I got here earlier on this afternoon, I really thought that both my colleague and I, the hon MEC for health, Dr Mkhize, would have a quarantine area in which hon members would put us. I am glad to see that the House is reserving the quarantine area for other hon members of this Council. [Laughter.]
I am also not surprised that the theme that ran through the address of the Deputy President was delivery and development. I think between the Deputy President, my colleague and I, we have one third of the former KwaZulu- Natal cabinet here in the Council today. We are very pleased that a product of KwaZulu-Natal today sits in the second highest office in the land. We used to tease the hon Deputy President before he was appointed that one day he would be in such high places, and we hope he does not look down upon us. Certainly, he does not do that.
We are all faced with the fact that poverty in our provinces is at an unacceptably high level and is driven by changes in the economy that have brought about lower rates of employment. I believe that we need not burden each other with statistics because we know that whatever the exact levels of poverty are, it is a gross phenomenon of such seriousness that suffering and deprivation are part of our national character.
I also do not wish to debate causes, because our role is to look to the future rather than to repeat the reasons that the economists regularly provide. We can therefore, I believe, spend our time together most profitably if we share thoughts on strategies to address the challenges of development that we face. It is in respect of the strategies that we must be ruthlessly honest with ourselves.
Development requires capacity in our administrations that we do not always have to the extent and levels that we need. All of us will remember the controversy that arose a few months ago when it was reported in the media that a department had not been able to spend aid funding for poverty relief. The real situation was more complex than the media reported, but it remains relevant to my point.
Among the official responses, the point was made that the department concerned had a shortage of personnel who could design and supervise special programmes. All of us experience this constraint to some or other degree. We cannot set goals for ourselves when we may not have capacity, at this point, to implement them adequately. I will return to this point in due course.
Having thought about the problems of poverty and development in our region very intensively, I have come to the conclusion that we should make a very careful distinction between levels of strategy. I would like to respond to the question relating to the Department of Agriculture because I am an integral part of agriculture. I would like to say that the cornerstone of the agricultural programme that we have in the province and which the national department shares with us is one of food security. Hence, we, in our province, have launched a programme called Xoshindlala. I think that it is unwise for us to read reports of 1997 and 1998 and say that that is the current thinking in our department. The current thinking in the Department of Agriculture both at provincial and national level is, certainly, food security.
The distinction that I would like to make is between what I will call base strategy and action strategy. There are other terms that I could use, but these will suffice. In the base strategy, we have to consider that our populations, particularly in rural areas, require to be liberated from factors that undermine their own energy and capacity to participate in their own development. Here I refer to the fact that preventative health care, the supply of potable water, housing where it is needed, electricity, adequate roads and transportation facilities, educational services, well- targeted welfare support and the like, are necessary before people in communities are, to an extent, freed from burdens that puncture their motivation and self-reliance. They develop an image of themselves as people who need rather than people with goals and ambitions. Without these basic supports, our rural populations face the world and Government as supplicants rather than as partners in their own development.
In this base strategy, our administrations at central, provincial and local government level have to shoulder the major burden of delivery. We have to struggle to ensure that our efforts are as co-ordinated, efficient, well- managed and monitored as possible. We will run into capacity problems again and again, but the training and capacity-building that we have to provide is internal. We cannot escape it. We have to overcome our constraints regarding the poor. Regarding the second level of strategy, the action strategy, to my mind, requires a different approach. While we know what the challenges are that we have to address in our administrations, we do not necessarily know what to inject into our poor rural populations to help them to become prouder and more self-reliant.
I want to submit that we are not necessarily experts on what they need to become active partners in their own renaissance and prosperity. I am suggesting that, regarding SMME training, rural production techniques, crop choices, marketing small-scale produce and the like, we need to involve and enter into partnerships with NGOs, professional agencies and the private sector.
The skill that we, as Government, will have to have is how to manage and supervise these partnerships. As we all know, there are many unscrupulous operators who are ever ready to exploit state contracts for quick wealth.
Sound development is always multifaceted and integrated, and the need is for more comprehensive partnerships. This is the nettle we have to grasp. To this end, I am pleased to announce that we in KwaZulu-Natal have an integrated rural development strategy. This is the result of a two-year process which culminated in a White Paper. I am glad to announce that all departments work within the framework of this strategy and that there is co- ordination at all levels.
I would like to use the next few minutes to deal with an issue that looms large and threateningly in KwaZulu-Natal, and that is the outbreak of foot- and-mouth disease in the Camperdown district. At this stage I want to thank Dr Conroy - I see he is out of the Chamber - for the motion that he presented earlier. I want to thank him very much. It is certainly very unlike some of his colleagues in the DA, if I may use that term with the Chair’s permission, who have criticised Government for the way we have approached this. I think some of these people are trying their old politicking with it. I want to assure this Council that both the national Minister and I have been informed by decisions taken by the professional veterinarians in this regard. We as political heads of departments have provided all the support that is necessary to our veterinarians to be able to contain and eradicate the disease.
I do not think I have to tell this House, because hon members are probably aware, that about a third of the area of the province, roughly two million hectares, has now been cordoned off to become a foot-and-mouth vaccination zone. This includes the two major cities and some of KwaZulu-Natal’s most productive farmland. There will be financial consequences because meat and dairy products may no longer be moved in or out of this new zone.
Exports of meat and dairy products from this zone to other countries are not significant, but the restrictions do mean markets in other provinces are closed off for the time being. We would like hon members, the media and role-players out there to understand that the campaign against foot-and- mouth disease is being waged in the most difficult circumstances imaginable
- small commercial farms merging into unfenced communal areas, mountainous terrain, a network of footpaths and roads, and the country’s major national highway driving straight through the disease’s epicentre.
One of the members of the so-called DA said on radio a few weeks ago that - it was Dr Fry … Kraai … Sorry, maybe I said Fry; it was Dr Kraai van Niekerk. The Freudian slip might be the correct thing to have happened. Dr Kraai van Niekerk, a member of Parliament in the National Assembly, called for a state of emergency. I believe that this is a kneejerk instinct for authoritarian measures, no doubt acquired under the pre-1994 regime. We prefer to operate within the Animal Diseases Act, which provides veterinary authorities with every power needed to combat the spreading of foot-and- mouth disease.
We are determined to succeed in preventing further spreading of the infection and we reiterate our full support to the veterinary teams in the field and all those who are giving them back-up.
May I also indicate that we have tremendous support from the national Department of Agriculture, from all the provinces for that matter. Every province responded to the call of KwaZulu-Natal in sending down veterinarians, animal health technicians and other personnel who could assist. The SANDF have provided over 800 members on the ground, and metro police and other authorities have also provided personnel. I believe it is through working together as Government, as various stakeholders, that we can overcome this hurdle. May I also add that we have received support from organised agriculture. They have been really supportive of all the measures that we have taken so far … [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, hon Deputy President Zuma, hon special delegates and colleagues in the House, hon Deputy President Zuma propounded some of the major areas of concern confronting South Africans, and broadly sketched how the Government responded to some of the issues and what it would like other parties to do in confronting the challenges.
Here I hasten to congratulate and compliment the hon the Deputy President for his call on all parties to work together. He has set the right tone and I express the hope that the different parties that will be fighting the elections will take heed of this call.
My input will be from a provincial perspective, and I would like to commence by commending the Government on realising the conservation and tourism dream by signing the formalities for establishing the Gaza, Kruger and Gonarezhou Parks as a trans-frontier Park between South Africa, Mozambique and Zimbabwe.
This park will consist of national parks, private game reserves, hunting concession areas and community-managed natural resource areas. The elation of the South African Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Mr Valli Moosa, is shared by all South Africans, as the proposed new park, embracing three contiguous countries, would be a tremendous boost to the tourism industry and a further assault on poverty and unemployment.
A matter of deep concern to us in KwaZulu-Natal is the continued evidence of gross irregularities within the bosom of the SAPS, alleged police links with hijack syndicates, cash-in-transit robberies and misdemeanours such as rape and sexual offences which continue to be reported ad nauseam in the media, radio and TV. This wave of lawlessness within the law cannot be considered as the exception any longer.
I quote the case of one Durban policeman, who still has his job, and was indicted on five counts of statutory rape and one of indecent assault involving a 14-year-old. The man has reportedly admitted to the offences, but his superiors, in their own perverted fashion, say his actions do not warrant suspension.
Captain Vish Naidoo, the police spokesman, has apparently passed his own judgment, suggesting that the man and the little girl were lovers. This spokesman is ignorant of the law, which is to protect minors from abuse. This stupid response from such an ignoramus surely warrants his own suspension! Such a lackadaisical attitude to misdemeanours perpetrated by police officers cannot be tolerated.
Just as in medieval times, we had modern minds, in modern times we have barbaric minds. Can we doubt, after watching the dog squad videos that shattered our lives so rudely last week, that pockets of backward elements that exult in the worst acts of barbarism, still remain within our civilised society?
In the field of education, the national Ministry has passed some good laws recently, but there are things going on on the ground that is putting a stain on the copybook. Some school principals do not seem to comprehend the imperatives of the Constitution, that is, every child has a right to education, whatever the background.
We have cases where school principals are barring those children whose parents have not paid the school fees from entering the school premises or writing their final examinations. School report cards are even withheld by these principals, who are clearly indulging in unprocedural and unconstitutional measures.
Finally, the role of the media in a democracy has recently been assailed from many quarters. In my province, KwaZulu-Natal, when the media reported on some aspects of ministerial spending on houses, travel, and security, the spectre of a ``media cabal’’ was raised, suggesting that this cabal had a sinister agenda to undermine the governing coalition.
But, surely it is normal for the media, in a democracy such as ours, to call to account any conduct by government Ministers or officials who might be seen to be contributing to the country’s economic woes. After all, William Shakespeare said:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings.
Venality and venery have been part of the accoutrements of men holding public office since medieval times, but historical evidence of such characteristics surrounding public figures is not enough to exculpate those among us who might evince a penchant to practise such misdemeanours.
The hon Deputy President has correctly alluded to the importance of adherence to morality and ethics in our society. Our lives must be like a spiralling staircase, with a relentless striving towards higher levels of moral conduct, each day in our own spheres of activity.
I would like to conclude with the words of Tennyson’s Ulysses. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr P C McKENZIE (Western Cape): Chairperson, Deputy President, it is an honour to follow after the hon member. It is just strange that they are basically in the same alliance and yet what he says is the direct opposite of what Mrs Gouws is saying. So it would be my suggestion that their Whips get together and check their speeches beforehand so that they make speeches out of one mouth. [Laughter.]
However, I do want to say that I was very glad when I heard the speech that my friend Mr Marais made. Then in my heart I immediately changed my official speech and I began to write a new speech whilst sitting here. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Very good, very good.
Mr P C McKENZIE: So I am covering my official speech. I want to say that it was so strange and that I felt so good in my heart that I no longer belong to the party that blames and complains and does not give any solutions to the South African situation. [Applause.] It was absolutely a nice sense of freedom to know that I now belong to the party that does not blame and complain, but in which we roll up our sleeves and get into the work and try to solve the situation in this country.
What also came up badly for him is the fact that he was trying to defend something that could not be defended. If members remember … [Interjections.] Now Mr Ackermann will keep his mouth shut, because he must hear what I want to say. If he does not know this Mr Meyer, Mr Marais will know him. In the late 1960s, Mr Marais and another MEC, Piet Meyer, and I entered politics at exactly the same time. [Interjections.] In fact, I became the chairman of the Labour Party in Bonteheuwel. At the same time, Mr Marais became the chairman of the Nooitgedacht branch and Piet Meyer became the chairman of the Bishop Lavis branch.
Together we fought against injustice in this country. [Interjections.] Together we said to ourselves that it was immoral to see people of colour, people who were not white in this country, having to leave their homes. In my family, twice we were forcibly removed out of District Six and Mowbray because of the apartheid system. Now I find my friend coming here and defending a system that was corrupt. [Interjections.] Let me go further. This is what is heartbreaking, because together we were the three radicals who fought for change. Today the hon member talks about posts. Is that all that people of his calibre think of, posts and positions. We say to our friend that we are not in politics for post and positions; we are in politics to serve the needs of the community. [Interjections.]
To the member who is making such a lot of noise, I would like to say that when we were negotiating about joining the NP, he was not part of those negotiations, because he was too far down. But during those negotiations, there was only one reason why we then broke away from the Labour Party. We said: Let us try to get the sun to fall on all South Africans, because the sun should not shine only on white South Africans, and the day has arrived when we can speak out and not be treated like stepchildren in this country. Mr Marais was part of that decision. [Interjections.] That is why it breaks my heart that he is being used - and Hansard will prove what I am saying here today - because we did not join the NP because of its policies. No one, of any colour, would have joined the NP because of its apartheid policies. So we said: Let us try to use this vehicle to see if liberation cannot come to this country sooner.
Right now, if we look at the polls and the elections that are going to be run in this province, and especially here where liberation and transformation have not taken place yet … [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Not in this province.
Mr P C MCKENZIE: So we asked those things, and it is true what the hon Chief Whip said.
When there were negotiations between the DP and the NP, the big thing was to get the coloured vote. Of the delegation that went to these negotiations, there were only two coloureds there representing our people. [Interjections.] But they spoke about the future of coloureds in this community. [Interjections.]
Now let me go further … [Time expired.] [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order, hon members! I will not allow the next member to speak before there is order in the House.
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, when I was much younger and still at school, I read and I was taught about the total onslaught, and the total onslaught was eradicated by time. Today, again, we are experiencing a total onslaught on a champion who is going to get rid of that onslaught too. [Interjections.]
Dit is interessant dat hier vandag gelag is toe mnr McKenzie gepraat het; nie vir wát hy gesê het nie, maar vir hom persoonlik. Dit is tog interessant wanneer mense oorloop na ‘n ander party toe. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[It is interesting to note that we had laughter here today when Mr McKenzie spoke; not for what he said but for him personally. It is indeed an interesting phenomenon when people cross the floor.]
They have to show that they are more ANC than the ANC itself. [Interjections.] I find it very interesting that when somebody talks on behalf of a party or a province, as we have experienced here today, the largest portion of their speech is directed at one individual in that specific audience. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Any junior psychoanalyst would be able to tell one that they do that because they have been hurt by the truths spoken by that person and that they are doubting what they stand for. [Interjections.]
To Mr Surty - in his absence, as he has most probably gone for therapy -
and Mr McKenzie we say: We understand. You can relax now.''
[Interjections.] To Mr Mayor Marais we say:We congratulate you. You have
done it again.’’
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon member, on what point are you rising?
Mr T B TAABE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Yes, raise it.
Mr T B TAABE: I just want to establish whether it is in order for this unintelligent and often myopic old man to …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Order, hon member! [Laughter.] Could you get to your point of order?
Mr T B TAABE: Yes, for him to be, every time he opens his mouth … [Inaudible.] [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): That is not a point of order. Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, on a point of order: That hon member has now made allegations against this colleague of ours in the Council. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order, Mr Ackermann! [Interjections.]
Mr C ACKERMANN: I cannot hear you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon members, you are making a noise. We cannot hear the speakers.
Mr Ackermann, I ruled the member out of order. What else do you want?
Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, even if you ruled him out of order, I still want you to take that allegation into account, and this hon member should be out of the Council. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon member, you are out of order. You have no right to impose any judgment on any other member. Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek het ‘n maand gelede in hierdie Parlement saam met ‘n Duitse sakeman geëet. Hy het ses jaar gelede na Suid- Afrika toe gekom en die besturende direkteur van ‘n groot maatskappy geword. ‘n Jaar gelede het hy hier in Suid-Afrika afgetree.
Ek het vir hom gesê dit is vir my vreemd, en gevra hoekom hy in Suid-Afrika aftree, want waarom sal ‘n wêreldburger in Suid-Afrika aftree waar ons ekonomiese groeikoers laer is as ons beloofde mikpunt en die rand so swak vertoon? Waarom sal hy aftree in ‘n land waar misdaad nie onder bedwang gebring kan word nie, waar vroue en kinders uurliks verkrag word, waar landbouers se vrouens en kinders vermoor word?
Waarom sal hy wil aftree in ‘n land waarvan die president die MIV/vigs- en grondbesettingskwessies so lomp hanteer? Waarom sal hy in ‘n land wil aftree waar die onderwysdepartement donateursfondse van R960 miljoen nie kan bestee nie, terwyl onderwys en opleiding ‘n prioriteit is? Waarom sal hy wil aftree in ‘n land waar die welsyntoelae ingekort word terwyl die departement geld moet oorrol wat nie vir die armstes van die armes aangewend is nie? [Tussenwerpsels.] Waarom sal hy in ‘n land wil aftree waar daar gerugte is van korrupsie waarby ‘n R43 miljard-wapenkontrak betrokke is en waarin mense in hoë posisies geïmpliseer word? Waarom sal hy wil aftree in ‘n land waar die mineraleregte van swartmense wat in trust gehou word, genasionaliseer word? Waarom sal hy wil aftree in ‘n land waar rassisme nog ‘n werklikheid is en selfs misbruik word om politieke punte aan te teken, en selfs as regverdiging dien vir kriminele dade? [Tussenwerpsels.]
Waarom sal hy in ‘n land wil aftree waar ‘n beter lewe vir almal belowe word terwyl hoofsaaklik vriende, familie en kamerade of hulle met ‘n sekere partylidmaatskapkaart alleen die voordeel trek? Waarom sal hy in ‘n land wil aftree waar werkgeleenthede minder gemaak word en nie geskep word nie? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, a month ago I had a meal with a German businessman at this Parliament. Six years ago he immigrated to South Africa and became the managing director of a huge company. A year ago he retired here in South Africa.
I told him that this was strange to me and asked him why he had retired in South Africa, because it begs the question why a citizen of the world would retire in South Africa where our economic growth is lower than our promised aim and the rand is showing so poorly. Why would he retire in a country where crime cannot be kept under control, where women and children are raped hourly, where the women and children of agriculturists are murdered?
Why would he want to retire in a country whose President is dealing so clumsily with the HIV-Aids issue as well as the land occupation issue? Why would he want to retire in a country where the education department cannot spend donors funds of R960 million while education and training is a priority? Why would he want to retire in a country where the welfare grant has been cut back, while the department has to roll over funds which have not been used for the poorest of the poor? [Interjections.]
Why would he want to retire in a country where there are rumours of corruption involving a R43 billion arms contract, and in which people in high positions are being implicated? Why would he want to retire in a country where the mineral rights of black people which are kept in trust are being nationalised? Why would he want to retire in a country where racism is still a reality and even misused to score political points, and moreover even serves as justification for criminal deeds? [Interjections.]
Why would he want to retire in a country where a better life for all is promised while mainly friends, family and comrades or those with a certain party membership card are drawing the privileges? Why would he want to retire in a country where job opportunities are being reduced and are not being created?]
Why would anybody wish to settle in a country like this if he can go anywhere in the world? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Could you take your seat, hon member.
Mr M V MOOSA: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to know from the hon member where he got all that information from, because he is misleading the House.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! That is not a point of order. Continue, hon member. Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: I will excuse the hon member’s ignorance, Sir.
Why would anybody wish to settle in a country like this while he can settle anywhere in the world?
This gentleman from Germany gave me hope, and I want to share that with hon members. He said that South Africa offers him and his family the opportunity to make a real difference in people’s lives like nowhere else in the world. I want to repeat that. He said he settled here because in South Africa he and his family could make a difference in people’s lives like nowhere else in the developed world. [Interjections.]
That is the reason why that hon member, and all of us in this House are here, exactly for that, and for nothing else. As Leo Buscaglia said: The purpose of life is to help others, and if you can’t, help them, don’t hurt them.
Hierdie Nasionale Raad van Provinsies is die naelstring tussen ons mense op grondvlak en die nasionale Regering, en sy plek in die demokrasie is onmisbaar. As dit egter nie deur sy eie lede, die premiers en die LUR’e in die provinsies en deur die uitvoerende gesag van die land erken word en gerespekteer word nie, is die kanse vir hom om te slaag net mooi nul. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[This National Council of Provinces is the umbilical cord between our people at grass-roots level and national Government, and its place in the democracy is vital. However, if it is not recognised and respected by its own members, the premiers and the MECs in the provinces and by the executive authority, then chance for success is precisely zero.]
Although I cannot identify with the black, white and green colours, nor with the ANC logo on their local election posters, I can identify with the slogan: Together we can speed up change and fight poverty! [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: By joining us!
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Together we can do it if we recognise basic needs, and I only have time to emphasise one - one that is my passion, [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Join us! Join us!
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: That passion of mine is the right of all the people in South Africa to use the languages of our forefathers, and to be served in those languages.
I want to challenge the Deputy President, the ANC and all the other parties in this House today to make the following a crucial point of their election campaign. We are surely going to do it. I want to quote what we are going to tell the people:
Die DA-beheerde munisipaliteite sal verstaanbare inligting voorsien aan al sy mense; nie ongevoelig of lukraak met inwoners se taalregte omgaan of dit ignoreer nie; die taalbepalings van die Grondwet uitvoer deur ‘n opname van al die mense se taalvoorkeure in rade onder sy beheer te doen; ‘n bemagtigende taalbeleid op grond van die opname saamstel, dit billik toepas en gereeld hersien om inwoners doeltreffend in die hooftale van daardie rade te kan bedien; gebruikersvriendelik in die rade se taalkeuses kommunikeer om aansoeke, vertoë, klagtes, inligting en interne sake deurgaans in die rade se keuse-tale te hanteer. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [The DA-controlled municipalities will provide intelligible information to all their people; not be insensitive to, or haphazardly deal with, the language rights of citizens or ignore those rights; execute the language provisions of the Constitution by doing a survey of all the language preferences of people in councils under its control; compile an empowering language policy on the basis of the survey, apply it fairly and revise it regularly to be able to serve citizens effectively in the main languages of those councils; communicate in a user-friendly manner in the language choices of the councils to deal with applications, protests, complaints, information and internal matters in the councils’ languages of their choice.]
Up to now we have had a top-down approach, and this approach, for bringing multilingualism about as functional reality, did not work.
Only six of the 27 ministers gave some input to the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology to be incorporated in the draft Bill. It is time for a bottom-up approach. Let us take up the challenge and empower our people through the languages they know best. It is time that we used our diversity as our strength and not as a divisive factor.
Let us host a national language and culture conference in order to really build the bridges so as to form one powerful rainbow nation. Let us not postpone it, for life is not a rehearsal. We are busy with the final act. The time to make a difference is now.
Let the ANC poster become a reality. [Interjections.] …
An HON MEMBER: Come and join us!
An HON MEMBER: Come and join the ANC!
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Let the ANC poster become a reality, and not just an empty promise on paper worth nothing, like this piece of paper that I am crumpling in my hand. [Time expired.]
Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, section 27(1) and (2) of the Constitution places an obligation on both the National Assembly and the NCOP to ensure that the state takes reasonable legislative and other measures within its available resources to achieve the progressive realisation of the citizen’s right to have access to sufficient food and water, health care services, including reproductive health care, and social security support for those who cannot care for themselves.
The Northern Province has long been held up by socioeconomic backlogs. Approximately half a million of the people, particularly those in the economically viable age group, are unemployed in the area. To close this gap we would have to employ thousands of people per month. The province has to grapple with a backlog of over 40 000 classrooms, an excessive matric failure rate and illiteracy rates and a shortage of teachers with science skills. To be honest, these backlogs were in existence long before our democratic Government came into being. I am saying this because I live in that area.
The 1998 flood disaster that destroyed the largest portion of our road network infrastructure added to the then backlog of 4 000 km of new roads to be paved at a cost of R1,5 billion, as well as the rehabilitation of other economic roads and so on.
Backlogs are once more being encountered with regard to access to safe and potable water by the rural household clinics, health centres and even hospitals. I have received reports from some of the rural clinics and health centres during constituency weeks that they sometimes run nursing services for a week without water. Yet dams such as Middle Letaba, Sami, Tzaneen and Ebenezer are full to capacity. These dams are located within the areas where complaints emerge.
Given this background, we should ask ourselves whether we have ever sincerely discharged our legislative responsibilities in terms of the expectations of section 27(1) and (2) of the Constitution. If yes, well and good, and if not, collectively we have to reconsider our positions in this Parliament.
I would like to commend the Department of Provincial and Local Government for the manner in which they allocated funds to the individual municipalities for the financial year 2001-02. After careful scrutiny of the allocations, there will be no reason for the municipal councils to fail to deliver essential services to the communities.
I call upon all political parties at local government level to join forces in terms of their expert knowledge, past experience and otherwise, because water, roads, electricity and refuse removal facilities are communally consumed, irrespective of party-political passions.
Lastly, the HIV/Aids issue is simple and straightforward to an ordinary man like me. Like any other disease, early diagnosis and treatment, be it prophylactic or curative, is the basic emphasis. Condomise, abstain or stick to one partner at a time - these are preventative measures. HIV/Aids is a contentious and controversial disease in the eyes of politicians. Like with any other human disease, the affected person’s health and capacity become undermined.
Any disease that assumes pandemic proportions impacts negatively on the economy of the country. HIV/Aids will undoubtedly have effects on a range of economic aggregates, including gross domestic product, poverty, labour supply and productivity.
With these few arguments, Chairperson, I would like to thank you and the House. [Applause.]
Dr Z L MKHIZE (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, I want to thank this House for the opportunity to address hon members. May I also thank the Deputy President for his outstanding address, which has given us direction and confidence.
The matter which we would wish to bring to the attention of this Council is the problem of the outbreak of cholera in KwaZulu-Natal since the middle of August. Since then about 4 822 people have been treated for the infection, but our daily admissions are showing figures below 50 in the whole province, which is a tremendous reduction. We would therefore want to assure members that cholera is under control.
The districts which are affected are Mfolozi, Eshowe, Nkandla, Jozini, Durban and Port Shepstone. About half of the deaths that have been recorded occurred within the first three weeks, but energetic intervention by the different teams has kept the death toll as low as 33.
I therefore wish to commend the officials from the Departments of Health and Water Affairs, the Defence Force, local government and local authorities for the enthusiastic manner in which they moved to give health education, distribute chlorine solution and set up water tanks, which has led to the containment of the infection. Co-operation from traditional and community leaders, school teachers, the Red Cross and other NGOs was also quite outstanding. I also wish to commend the private sector companies which made contributions to the fight against cholera.
Though the initial problem was water contamination, it is clear, from the tests done showing that some of the rivers and boreholes are clear, that the problem is now communicable through human contact. We believe that the provision of water to 6 million people in this country is an achievement and that the Government’s commitment to providing essential services to our people is the way to guarantee a better life for all and would also save us from the problem of waterborne infections.
We reiterate that the epidemic is under control and that it poses no danger whatsoever to tourists. KwaZulu-Natal is therefore a safe place. Cholera is only confined to villages where there is poor water supply and sanitation.
We want to support the call from the Deputy President for moral regeneration. The co-operation in our province between the ANC and the IFP has made an impact on the establishment of peace and tranquillity in KwaZulu-Natal. We believe that peace will pave the way for social development and the reconstruction of the community’s life and soul. It is under these conditions of peace that economic growth and the eradication of poverty can be achieved.
The tragedies that occurred in Ntshanga and Cato Ridge, where about seven people were murdered in the past two days, are sparks of community conflicts which have already been solved. We believe that our vigilance will assist in reducing these kinds of incidences, but as we send our condolences to the bereaved we also believe that despite such events our elections will be peaceful and will be without any significance disturbances.
We also wish to commend the Office of the Presidency for the manner in which they have dealt with the problem of traditional leaders to ensure that traditional and elected leadership co-operate and co-exist peacefully for the benefit of the communities.
Our concern about the rapid spread of HIV/Aids is matched by our vigorous campaign in mobilising the community and leadership to encourage a change in behaviour, using life-skills training for the youth in and out of schools and mobilising volunteers for home-based care amongst the religious leaders and different leaders, healers, NGOs, artists, musicians, and so on. This co-operation on our programmes of training more community leaders on the issues of HIV/Aids has been outstanding. We have also distributed condoms at a rate which, at this stage, amounts to about 3,5 million per month, and we have established a pilot project which is using shebeens and taverns for the distribution of condoms.
We are under no illusion that fighting poverty, strengthening access to health services and eliminating illiteracy will be part of our armament. The prevention of mother-to-child transmission of HIV will be strengthened by expansions to a number of hospital sites, such as King Edward, Prince Mshiyeni, Edendale, Grey’s and Northdale, and other clinics. In fact, all provinces have identified sites where these projects will be taking place. This has been a national decision which means that, in the next few weeks, we will be using Nevirapine for the prevention of mother-to-child HIV transmission at a number of sites in the different provinces.
We believe, therefore, that the campaign by the Democratic Alliance for free drugs for the prevention of mother-to-child transmission of HIV is completely irrelevant. We also condemn the use of HIV/Aids and the genuine fears of HIV-positive people for electioneering. We believe it is too serious an issue to be used for vote catching, because it is targeted at creating false expectations and an impression that the Government does not care about the lives of people.
We also believe that the approach by Mr Leon to negotiate for free drugs was also quite opportunistic, because I do not believe that there are pharmaceutical companies that would wish to sideline a trading partner, that is, the Government, and make a deal with the opposition leader who has no executive power. The Department of Foreign Affairs was fortunately able to get out of this mess. We want to know what Mr Leon has done, personally.
I am also puzzled by the comments and questions that have been raised by Mr Van Niekerk. I do not believe a South African can raise so many questions and want to know why he should remain a South African and yet proudly say that he has been convinced by a foreigner, a German, that South Africa is still a good place to be. I personally believe that this kind of identity crisis of the DA is actually the cause of their problems in trying to convince voters that the past is possible in the future. We therefore say that because of their confrontational, divisive and negative attitude and approach, we do not believe that they are a party that should rule this country. We want to assure our people that they will remain safe, because they can never be left in the hands of a party such as the DA.
Therefore, regarding the concerns we have raised in relation to their approach to HIV/Aids issues, we all need to be united in our fight against HIV/Aids and we should not use this very serious tragedy for partisan and political-party interests. Rather, we should actually unite on common programmes in which we, with the Government and different opposition parties, are taking a step forward in ensuring that our people can be more alert to the problems of HIV/Aids. With those words, I want to thank members very much for this opportunity. [Applause.]
Ms N MFEKETO (Salga): Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon members, before coming here this afternoon, I hosted a lunch for about 200 old age pensioners, most of whom were over 75 years of age. They had earlier visited this Parliament and then went to have lunch at the council. It was the first time in their lives that they visited both Parliament and the council.
When I told them that the Deputy President was going to be here, they asked me to convey a message to him. They said that they knew that yesterday’s parties, that call themselves `new’ today, would be saying they are speaking on their behalf, on behalf of the poor people, but for them the fact that they are citizens of this country, the fact that they are human beings protected by the Constitution of this country, is something they never dreamed of, and even though they want us to speed up transformation and change, that alone is transformation in this country.
It is true that as we march towards achieving our goal of reconciliation, reconstruction and development we are still faced with obstacles and forces against change in our society.
The past week’s Special Assignment programme on television has posed a real challenge, and a major question, to the nation and international communities, both friends and foes of our country. We should begin to ask ourselves important questions, as a nation, namely, whether we are able to deal with the problems of racism and brutality, and whether we really are a nation that lives in two different worlds. One world is a world of change which calls for reconciliation, reconstruction and development of our society, instilling moral fibre in our people, and the other is a world that is characterised by hatred and a lack of racial tolerance that has been inflicted on people by the past system of apartheid, a society that wants to maintain draconian behaviour within our society.
In dealing with these problems we should be able, as a country, to acknowledge the fact that our society is still trapped by a deep-seated racial problem. There is a need for change in the mindsets of our people. We have to join forces against racial problems and intolerance, and be able to heed the call that we are a nation at change. The time has come to do all we can to seek, beyond the political differences, a common ground as a basis for national action. On 7 November 2000 Salga, in partnership with the national Health Ministry and the United Nations Development Programme, launched a chapter on the alliance of mayors and municipal leaders on HIV/Aids in Africa. The signing of a declaration committed South Africa to endorsing the Abuja Declaration of 1998. The declaration called upon local government to implement effective measures to reduce the socioeconomic impact of HIV/Aids, to promote and co-ordinate a multisectoral approach to HIV prevention, to mobilise both human and financial resources, to implement local strategies on HIV/Aids, and to ensure active involvement of infected and affected people by HIV/Aids.
This commitment by our mayors and the Minister of Health is in line with our fourth annual general meeting resolution and the signing of a declaration on HIV/Aids by the Salga leadership and the Minister for Provincial and Local Government. Our call on HIV/Aids, as organised local government, is within the context that local government, as a sphere of government that is closer to the people, should ensure that HIV/Aids forms part of service delivery, including that of health services.
The national HIV/Aids and STD strategic plan for South Africa should be implemented at the local government level, in partnership with community- based organisations and organs of civil society, with a special focus on young people. Funding for HIV/Aids should be channelled to local government to capacitate our municipalities to render a primary health care service.
The programme to combat the pandemic should take place in the context of our fight against poverty to make basic health services, clean water and sanitation accessible to all our people.
Our former President, Dr N Mandela, made a call for nation-building, a call to all our communities across the political, religious and racial spectrum to play a key role in the reconstruction and development of our country. We have adopted the Reconstruction and Development Programme as a soul for development. Hence, today, as local government, we continue to strive for the provision of services to those communities which were previously deprived of these services. We will ensure that we meet our constitutional responsibility by meeting the needs of our people and, together, speed up change. [Applause.] Mr S L E FENYANE: Chairperson, when the present Government came to power in 1994, with the mandate from the electorate to effectuate its slogan of ``a better life for all’’, ordinary citizens of this country held a belief that the end of their suffering was nigh. For, prior to the elections, the country had been at the nadir of its fortunes one day too long.
In the field of telecommunications, a vexing paradox was experienced, as 94 out of every 100 white people had access to a telephone, and 87 out of 100 white households had telephones installed in their homes, whilst 53 out of every 100 black people had access to a telephone, and only 12 out of every 100 black households had telephones. All this was evident in 1994.
It should be noted that the RDP recognised access to telephones not only as a basic need, but also as a prerequisite for social development for all. That is why, in 1996, Telkom was given roll-out targets for telephones as a condition tied to its licence obligation. It was further granted a five- year exclusivity in certain telecommunication services in order to meet the RDP objectives set by the Government. Between 1996 and today, over 1,3 million new access lines have been installed. A total of 427 338 lines were installed in traditionally underserviced areas, whilst 4 339 lines were installed in schools, mainly in rural areas. Six hundred and fifty-seven villages obtained telephone access from these projects. In fact, I am informed that telephone access, with the inclusion of cellular phones, has reached an astronomical figure of 13 million in South Africa.
At the same time, in sub-Saharan Africa, there are still only 15 telephones for every 1000 persons, whilst New York is said to have more telephones than the rest of Africa. This truism reminds me of the words of wisdom from Nelson Mandela’s autobiography when he said:
I have walked that long road to freedom. I have taken a moment here to rest, but I can rest only for a moment, for with freedom comes responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not yet ended.
Symbolically, this means that for us to be truly free, the co-operation of all of us is imperative.
We should remember that for everything there is a season. There is a season to criticise, a season to destroy or to watch something that one cannot sustain die. There is also a season to love and build, and so on and so forth. The NCOP finds itself at a vantage point to co-ordinate, co-operate, ameliorate relations, and to advance the interests of our country and her people, as the Deputy President has just indicated.
On the African Renaissance question, when the present Government came to power, public opinion, both inside and outside of this country indicated that South Africa was then poised to play a pivotal role, not only in the economic revival of sub-Saharan Africa and later the rest of Africa, but in an attempt to unify Africa.
To this end, Eskom has penetrated the African energy market with vehement vigour. Today, if one travels from Cape Town to the village called Zama Zama in Tunisia, then to Senegal and to Somalia, one will find that Eskom supplies two thirds of Africa’s electricity. Telkom has telephone links with all 53 countries in Africa. All these are attempts to realise the African Renaissance vision. Vodacom and MTN have made significant inroads into the African market, in pursuance of the African Renaissance vision.
The President of this country, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, has aptly indicated in his book and in his speeches that Africa’s revival is beckoning and that this is the time for it. True to form, if one looks around, one will see, more especially towards sunset, a huge stone resembling the moon perched majestically on the edge of the horizon, with the inscription: ``Africa, this is your millennium. You have contributed so much to the world. Now it is the time for you to contribute to yourself.’’
However, not everyone sees from looking. Many look, but only a few see. I do not believe Mr Marais - it is a pity he is not here - sees. It is outrageously dishonest of him to say that 480 jobs are lost each day without juxtaposing that questionable statistic against jobs that are created in this country. Rather, one should talk of net job losses, of net jobs created. I am aware that the hon Marais is too dim-witted to understand that for every action there is a reaction. That is what physics teaches us. I doubt whether he has studied elementary economics. I do not think he would understand. An HON MEMBER: He does not know about that.
Mr S L E FENYANE: Mr Marais does not seem to understand the origin and advantages of the formations of regional economic communities, known as trade blocs. Countries negotiate better international trade links if they do that collectively. Mr Marais’s outburst of guff did not cater for this. I am not surprised, though. He has been overtaken by prejudice, ignorance and a want of common sense.
In the field of human resource development, studies in international management have revealed that countries that do not respect education will always find themselves at the peripheries of globalisation.
If one went to Japan today, one would discover that Japan manufactures arguably the world’s most comfortable sedan, called the Lexus. Each day, 300 Lexus sedans are produced by 66 persons and 310 robots. Japan also has a modern train that travels at a speed of 180 miles per hour. Japan arguably leads the world in the field of technological innovativeness. What is its secret? Education and commitment! [Time expired.]
Mr J O TLHAGALE: Hon Chairperson, His Excellency the Deputy President, hon premiers and MECs, and hon members, on behalf of the UCDP I also wish to congratulate His Excellency the Deputy President, who, in spite of his tight schedule and other pressures of work, has found time to visit this House. We are indebted to the Deputy President, particularly with regard to the pertinent issues that he raised this afternoon. We support the principle of working co-operatively and harmoniously with other political parties, something he has appealed for. We shall not be party to any form of destabilisation of the ensuing elections.
We are committed to genuine efforts to bring about peace and stability in the forthcoming local government elections. However, we remain a party with a mind of its own. We reserve the right to differ with any other political party where it is necessary to differ. We reserve the right to caution our constituencies and support bases to say no to any rhetoric, fancy talk or empty promises by any political party. [Interjections.]
The HIV/Aids scourge is ravaging our people like a wild fire. Statistical indications are that it will leave old people such as myself without their young to look after them. It will cripple the economy and cause a devastation worse than the ravages of war. Whilst we support the prevention strategies propounded, we would also urge that proper drugs be procured. However, in the absence of appropriate medication to stop mother-to-child transmission, a second best could be better than nothing all. The longer we take to procure the appropriate drugs, the more advantage we lend to the ``bo raitsi’’, which means unqualified traditional healers. We wish to make an earnest appeal to Government to act swiftly and decisively in the search for appropriate drugs to contain this scourge.
The Deputy President’s message, with regard to some measure of understanding reached with the traditional leaders, is comforting and sets us at ease. This piece of information augurs well for the forthcoming elections. [Applause.]
Mr S H GQOBANA (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, Deputy President, I want to take this opportunity to participate in this important debate as outlined by our Deputy President. I first want to apologise for the absence of our premier who had a very hectic programme the previous week and, as a result, is very busy at the moment.
I think it is very important to participate in the debate after it has been outlined by our Deputy President and a line of march given to all South Africans. I wish to state that there should be no doubt in the minds of all South Africans precisely because the challenges that the Deputy President has outlined are challenges that have already been confronted and raised. Even those who doubted them when they were initially raised are now confirming their reality, and are offering their participation in dealing with those challenges. Some of those challenges relate to the issue of brutal violence and racism.
I will not repeat what the other speakers have raised with respect to various conferences that have been convened around the question of racism, but I want to share a few experiences relating to what happens in the Eastern Cape in relation to brutal violence. Perhaps the reason why some of these incidents are not covered on TV is because of the remoteness of the province from which we come.
I think one major incident took place some time ago in Barkly East, where members of the SAPS arrested some juveniles suspected of housebreaking. These boys were assaulted and later their clothes were removed from their bodies. They were requested to get into a dam with their heads submerged in the water. When one of them tried to raise his head out of the water, a firearm was pointed at him. This was done to extract information from them.
Two boys were later tied with ropes and were required to run on the other side of the SAPS vehicle. When one of the ropes broke, an SAPS member held the deceased by his arms whilst he was still running alongside the van. At some stage both boys fell and the vehicle drove over one boy’s head, killing him instantly.
This House is also aware of the incident that took place in the Uitenhage area, in Burgersdorp, where an SAPS member shot at his wife and then travelled to Uitenhage to kill his children and girlfriend, later turning the gun on himself. These are some of the few incidents that we have encountered. How many more of the same nature are there that we do not know about?
With respect to moral renewal, moral decay is caused by the degeneration of a value system informed by the social values originating from the socialisation process. For example, rape, robbery, murder, fraud and domestic violence are not the kind of behaviour that can be condoned in any civilised community or culture.
This should become our common point of departure. Our history, as the hon the Deputy President has outlined, is one of oppression, of racial discrimination and dehumanisation, of poverty, of institutionalised violence and counterviolence, of the breakdown of family life through mobility control laws and violence and, more importantly, of the decision of the youth to take the responsibility for liberating our country upon themselves.
We believe that our transition to democracy, which has so far been miraculously successful, will be wrecked unless leaders of every sector of society combine forces to combat the alarming deterioration in public morality. It is for this reason that a democracy such as ours, which has emerged from the apartheid ashes, should be founded on sound moral values that will inculcate in each of us a sense of national pride, oneness and commitment to the common good.
Unless we actively embrace the good and the positive and inculcate it in our children and their offspring, these evils that are characteristic of our past will always be part of our society. All institutions, that is, schools, family units, Government, and society in general, should strive for the development of the new value system through education and through Government policies.
The moral renewal is not a new agenda, but an inseparable continuation of the liberation struggle. Therefore, no single group or section of our society can appoint itself the guardian of the nation’s morals. We all have a role to play.
Regarding the impact of HIV in the Eastern Cape, we wish to share the following points with this House: From the sexually active population, which is 18% of the total Eastern Cape population or 500 000, in region A - that is the Port Elizabeth, Uitenhage Metropole - 22,1% have HIV; in region B, the Queenstown area, 15,1%; in region C, the Mdantsane area, 17,1%; in region D, the Umtata area, 17,5% and, in region E, the Bizana and Umzimkulu area, the percentage is 22%.
HIV poses a challenge to sustainable development. The rate of infection affects socioeconomic development negatively. A large portion of household income is spent on health care for adults and children who are ill because they are HIV-positive, have Aids, or have Aids-related diseases. The household capacity to sustain itself is significantly reduced as the members infected become economically inept. Many African families are stretched to the limit, as they have to accommodate children whose parents have died of Aids.
HIV/Aids poses a threat to investment in the Eastern Cape and the rest of the country. Companies from abroad are sceptical of investing in a country where social responsibility exceeds the return on investment. As is the case now, since HIV/Aids affects mostly the economically active population group, this means a large amount of money will be used on the training and replacement of personnel. Above all, the rate of absenteeism is due to sick leave.
Of particular concern is the strain that it is going to exert on our limited health budget. The economic situation in our province had led to 80% of the people depending on the public health sector, meaning that the management of HIV/Aids in the province will deplete the health budget. The health budget is also affected in the sense that a large percentage of HIV- infected people are prone to opportunistic diseases such as TB. In the past few months, there has been a significant increase in the number of people admitted who have been affected by opportunistic diseases. Most of them are admitted to hospitals and stay, in some cases, longer than 30 days.
Most of the people who die of Aids-related diseases are those between the ages of 25 and 35, which is the youth. The catastrophe is the loss of a possible generation, since this is the economically active group which is supposed to be contributing towards the economic development of our country, and of our province, in particular. One of the indicators of a declining participation in the economic development is the amount of sick leave requested by those who are working. The fight against Aids calls upon all of us to act in unity.
The other point that we want to share with the hon the Deputy President is that we should seriously consider the devastating effects that the situation imposes upon our youth, economy, communities, provinces, and our country at large. The provincial HIV/Aids unit of the department of health decided, planned and acted in a holistic fashion to increase access to testing, voluntary counselling, promotion of youth education programmes, continued HIV/Aids education, prevention of mother-to-child transmission, ensuring HIV/TB integrated interventions, strengthening community-based care, research, monitoring and evaluation, social mobilisation, and resource training centres. This is done in conjunction with the premier’s office.
In addition to the steps outlined above, condoms are requested directly from the national Department of Health by districts, and are then supplied according to the various needs of the districts.
In conclusion, I want to make a clarion call in support of the Deputy President to the young and old, black and white, rural and urban who belong to various denominations and political affiliations, to seriously consider the consequences of their decisions. We only have one option and that is to collectively declare war against HIV, and request females, as they have made history, to make sure that they continue to make history with HIV by helping us to change our attitudes and behaviours.
If there are any minutes left I would like to share with members the situation of the hospital that was once projected on the TV news, with special reference to Middelburg. I think that members have seen, on TV, nurses collecting money and all those things. That was done despite a lot of money having been saved by the hospital board. They have claimed that there is no money and, as such, they were trying to assist patients, yet the picture is as follows: There is an amount of R36 000 which is being kept there, and there are general funds amounting to R15 000 which are also kept there, by the hospital. In the cheque account, the following figures are reflected as established by the hospital board. In Absa Bank there is R11 000. In another account in Absa Bank there is R7 000. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr A MARAIS: Chairperson, hon Deputy President and hon colleagues, at the outset I would like to apologise on behalf of our premier for his not being in a position today to deliver the following message here in person. However, I am honoured to represent the Free State in this debate and I would like to use this opportunity to put forward some of the main concerns of our province at this stage.
Firstly, the issue of HIV/Aids and moral renewal: The Free State firmly believes that the quest for moral renewal should be taken up by each and every individual and organisation. Without moral renewal, our chances to beat the odds against the killer disease of HIV/Aids are becoming very slim. I do not have to remind members that statistics about the disease paint a bleak picture, and the Free State is of the opinion that there are no better people to address the pandemic of HIV/Aids than young people. Young people, including those living with HIV/Aids, must become an integral part of establishing and implementing programmes to address the virus and its devastating effects on our society.
Who better than the young people to advocate for the needs and rights of people living with Aids? Who better than the young people to promote an image of positive living amongst the youth? Who better than the young people to support the existing programmes for the prevention of HIV infections? No matter what our vision of the future is, the fact is that if we do not all join in the fight against HIV/Aids, we might not even have a future.
Addressing morality, especially amongst our youth, is a priority in the Free State. We are using every possible opportunity to implore our people to make a choice for clean and healthy living. On 31 October the Premier of the Free State called a meeting of religious leaders in the province to ask their assistance in guiding the restoration of a value system that honours people-centred development and a good quality of life for our communities and cities. The church must help to restore a value system amongst our people which does not allow for tolerance of corruption, a value system that refuses to accept crime, especially those violent crimes that are perpetrated against helpless elderly people, women and children. The church has a duty to assist in establishing a new moral order in South Africa with an acceptable culture of ethics and a stabilising system of values. Our people must be led to realise that ethics and moral values come from within.
The Free State government called on the church leaders to assist in launching a moral crusade to help develop a nurturing society where reconciliation, peace and stability would become part of the spiritual being of all our people.
The recent merger between two giant business federations is a clear indication of the commitment of the business sector to the realisation of the goals of the African Renaissance. The establishment of Newco will solicit the initial support of the SA Chamber of Business for the President’s approach to the Zimbabwean question.
The Free State is also taking a firm stand against brutality and racism. The year 2000 and the conference on racism have shed light on this evil practice that must be rooted out of our society. While these racist practices still occur every day and are telling the world a story of racial hatred and brutality, we believe that the goodwill and love existing among the greater part of our nation’s people should be utilised to nip this new wave of racial injustice in the bud and show the world that we are indeed capable of nation-building and moral restitution. The Free State has declared war on moral decay and racism. This is as far as the message from our hon Premier of the Free State goes.
Allow me to commend the hon the Deputy President, as well as the President,
but before doing so, I would like to relate to them a message from a very
ordinary person in the street. Some time ago there was an onslaught on the
profile of the Deputy President and the President, and the media were
asking: Who are they?'' I was walking around and I was being asked this
question repeatedly, until I met this old man in the street. I asked him,
because I needed an answer at that point in time because of the inundation
from the media:Who do you think the Deputy President and the President
are?’’ He told me: ``They are circumspect sages’’. I would like to
underscore that in the following way.
I think that the quest by our leadership in Government to normalise South Africa, not only in a contemporary sense, but in an international sense, is not something that only we as South Africans will derive benefit from. I think it is something that the whole world will derive benefit from.
Somebody said in this House earlier: ``It is time that Africa stopped giving to the rest of the world and started giving to itself.’’ But I would like to add something, namely that it is time that the rest of the world also started giving back to Africa what is rightfully Africa’s.
When you came into this debate, Chairperson, your submission in this House, in conjunction with that of the Deputy President, actually sculpted an image of what the NCOP is. As I was sitting here listening, the only inference I could draw - or, let me say, the only conclusion I could draw - was that the NCOP is the glue that is supposed to cement this fragmented nation that we are trying so desperately to establish. Hon members may ask why I say ``desperately’’, but I will come back to that later.
While many hon members sit here, they must ask themselves: Is this House presenting the interests of provinces?
When the tumult of the local government elections is over, the nation will still be looking to this House for leadership and direction. When one looks at the Constitution, the trajectory cast by the Constitution is that it is actually the responsibility of this House to take the nation by the hand and to lead it.
I would subtly like to warn all members, or maybe not warn, but to ask all members of this House that when the fun pertaining to local government elections is over, we still lead because it is expected of us to lead. The legitimacy of the ANC Government is unquestionable, and I think anybody trying to question that legitimacy is looking for ice in hell, and I do not think one can get that in hell. [Laughter.]
I have friends in the opposition parties. I am not saying this from the perspective of artificial affection. I am saying this because I think there is fidelity there, and it is starting to build. I think even they have admitted that it will take some time to get things to where we want to be. I would also like to do something else.
In prehistoric times the only mode of transport was dinosaurs. But the problem that people had at that time was that these animals had two brains, some in the front and some in the tail end. [Laughter.] As time went by, they evolved into two distinct species - those with heads on top, and those with heads on the bottom. [Laughter.]
When one looks at the make-up of the DA, one finds that there are enlightened persons. But DA stands for dinosaur age, and so one finds that there is overdrive in reverse mode. [Laughter.]
I think elections sometimes afford us the time to play politically, but at the end of the day what we should do is listen to what the Deputy President has told us. He has asked us to work together, as political parties, towards a common goal. The question is: What is that common goal?
Sometimes when one listens to people depict principles of the African Renaissance, one asks oneself what exactly are they talking about, because the emphasis is on multiculturalism, with which I have no problem. But a common African identity is absent in that argument. [Applause.]
Mr K D S DURR: Mr Chairman, that was a fine speech, and I think it is very, very important that we do unite around certain national goals. I want to talk about one of those goals today, as we are discussing challenges to our nation and how we are responding to them, and we will hopefully provide some solutions. I believe that one of the common goals is that of globalisation. I think the Government has done extremely well in projecting us onto that path. This is a path, I believe, most South Africans are united about, and there is no going back. However, we need to understand what it means and what responsibilities it brings with it. Globalisation means not only the movement of goods, services and information, but also the movement of skills, in other words, of people who are carriers of those skills.
The champions in the globalisation stakes are the open economies and the open societies. They are the ones that attract and welcome capital and skills, and over the centuries one will find economic growth being fostered by upward mobility, education and migration of skilled people. The Australians, the Canadians, the Dutch, the Brazilians, the South Africans and the Americans have used wave after wave of immigrants from Europe, Asia and Africa to elevate and grow their societies and their economies. We have seen major intercontinental migration from South and Central America to the US and Canada, and, lately, from Eastern Europe to Western Europe.
As a matter of fact, there are more people of colour, that is Africans, Caribbeans and Asians, in the UK and Holland than there are whites in South Africa. That is interesting, and the product of that migration. In addition, of course, there is something like half a million white South Africans in the UK alone.
The postwar government - the NP government, failed this country miserably in the immediate postwar period when they shut the door on immigration, because they shut the door on growth and on the ability of this country to become a major player at that stage. It was a mistake, but we, in this generation, must not make the same mistake again.
Skilled immigrants do not take people’s jobs - they make jobs for people. But what do we do? I ask this not because I want to score points against the Deputy President, because this is too important. The reality is that we throw every bureaucratic obstruction in the path of the skilled people who want to come, and we do nothing to discourage those who are leaving.
Now we come with a Bill in order to levy immigrants, as if people are rushing to get into this country. There is an old law which goes: If you want less of something tax it; if you want more of something subsidise it. From 1994 we have had a honeymoon with the world. That honeymoon is rapidly coming to an end like all honeymoons do. We must take our chances now, because if we do not we may not have another chance for several generations.
Our problem is not only emigration, but the lack of compensation for immigration. In other words, we suffer net losses of skilled workers. As a result, we drive up the salaries of those remaining, we have more mechanisation and more job losses, with a spiral going downwards.
In 1964 we had a net gain of 32 000 immigrants. In 1974 it was 28 000, and in 1984 it was 20 000. In 1994 we lost over 3 300, and in 1999 we lost 4 730 as a balance. Members know and I know that those figures are hopelessly understated. We, at present, have a shortage of managers in the amount of something like 300 000 to 500 000. Even though wonderful work has been done in our education system - and we are not talking about the good things that should be done now - the Deputy President will know that the fact is that our education system is not delivering fast enough. Development and delivery require capacity, capacity requires skills, and skills require education, skills transformation and also then the movement of people.
The Deputy President will know that capital is a coward. It moves from high- risk to low-risk environments. Money is fungible. It moves from high-tax to low-tax environments. One cannot stop it. No government has been born that can stop it. We need to make ourselves tax attractive, but what are we doing? We are pushing up the effective rates of tax. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I just want to ask whether it is proper for members to shout and scream in this House and then to go away without listening to what other people have to say, to very, very constructive discussions.
Deputy President, premiers, MECs and members of this august House, I stand here before hon members in the presence of our Deputy President, Mr Jacob Zuma, to raise very pertinent issues in relation to the finances of provincial and local government.
We are all aware that before resources are allocated to provinces, the Financial and Fiscal Commission makes recommendations on how these resources ought to be distributed equitably to all spheres of government. Moreover, before the resources are divided among the different spheres of government, central Government first sets aside resources to honour its debt obligation and reserves for contingency purposes. Contingency funds deal with unforeseen and unavoidable circumstances and allow Government to make funds available for natural disasters in case they occur. Thereafter, what is left is divided among the three spheres of government - that is, national, provincial and local government.
The FFC is an important institution in relation to the NCOP because their work and findings have particular and direct relevance for the division of revenue, bearing in mind that the division of revenue is crucial to the functioning of this House, as it pertains to section-76 legislation. I want to assure this House that the Select Committee on Finance is working and will work tirelessly to further clarify the relationship between institutions engaging on the Budget. Currently the FFC has to report to Parliament and to all nine provincial legislatures. Their documents on the costed norms approach, as tabled in May this year, have been circulated to all provinces so that discussions on their recommendations for the medium- term framework for 2000-04 could commence early in the next year, both in the select committee and in the provincial legislatures.
We are very happy to report that difficulties in relation to the disbursement of funds to provinces, particularly on conditional grants, have been adequately resolved by the insertion of a new clause in the Division of Revenue Act of 2000 which allows the Minister of Finance to convert the unutilised conditional grants into a provincial equitable share or local government equitable share.
The Act also provides for the periodic release of funds to provinces and local government, which was not the case in the past. We were also informed by the quarterly reports released by the national Treasury that there are some provinces that are doing very well in meeting their targets in terms of their spending patterns. Some have only spent about 20% of their budget as we are talking right now. But there are also provinces that are experiencing difficulties in meeting their targets. However, we appeal to these provinces not to compromise on service delivery. What really happens in these provinces is what economists term as ``fiscal dumping’’. In the last quarter of the financial year provinces have a disproportionate access to resources, which are really spillovers from the previous quarters and as a result incur massive spending which adversely affects the continuous or smooth delivery of services. This fiscal dumping should be viewed as a temporary phenomenon which will slowly disappear as the system of intergovernmental fiscal relations matures. However, an important development of our intergovernmental fiscal system is a nonoccurrence of unfunded mandates at provincial level. We hope that this trend will continue, and moreover, that the Public Finance Management Act will go a long way in assisting us in this regard, because section 35 of the Act states that draft national legislation that assigns additional functions or powers to provincial government must give projection of the financial implications of that function or power.
However, our challenge in the near future is to ensure that provinces do not impose unfunded mandates on the new local government structures. We observe some indication of this when provinces transfer their responsibilities of primary health care to municipalities. We need to address this issue before it escalates. Although the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review released in October 2000 informs us that spending trends in and across provinces show that provinces spend more than half of their budget on education, health and welfare, the question we should ask ourselves is whether this spending is translated into desirable outcomes. Therefore the challenge is for departments such as Health, Education and Welfare to deliver quality outputs. Again, the Public Finance Management Act helps us to budget in such a way that we achieve the desirable output as required by this Act.
We will soon be considering legislation which gives provinces more taxation powers. However, this needs to be qualified. Provincial taxation powers can only be enhanced within the national macroeconomic framework. I hope that these new powers will help provinces to raise additional revenue, bearing in mind that increases in taxation bases are not a panacea for the collection of additional revenue.
Our central responsibility is to focus on improving revenue collection from our current sources. Many provinces are working tirelessly to address these issues, and our Select Committee on Finance will undertake a study tour of provinces in order to obtain first-hand information.
The intergovernmental fiscal review, which was tabled last year, raised one generic problem, which was weak financial management systems which were not talking to each other. I am proud to report that this is now merely history, and I want to commend all provinces for their efforts in resolving this matter, because without good financial management systems we would be nowhere. The world we live in today does not give us a choice on such a matter, but it is a must to have such systems in place.
Many provinces are moving towards having budget surpluses. Provinces such as Gauteng are using their own resources for infrastructural development. The key challenge for other provinces is to develop capacity in their provincial departments to spend on infrastructure.
I cannot to overemphasise that reprioritisation on provincial budgets is long overdue. One of the few features of the intergovernmental fiscal review, tabled in October 2000, is its three chapters on local government finances and spending trends. This House should remember that local government gets only 4% from central Government, including conditional grants. They have to raise 96% from property rates and taxes from their own towns. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr D D MABUZA (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon members of this House, ladies and gentlemen, I am standing in for the premier who could not attend because of a prior engagement, and I convey his apology, Chairperson. May I hasten to say that you do not need to worry about what you said. We are aware, as provinces, about the valuable work and commitment of members in this House. We will continue really supporting the House, and doing everything in our power to make this House work.
Let me join my colleagues in commending the Deputy President on his input. He clearly isolated issues that are relevant, that matter most at this time, issues that will remain high on our agenda as we continue to strive for a better life. A good lather is half the shave. By that I am trying to say that we have made a good beginning.
The achievements of the past six years have been remarkable and unthinkable, but that does not in any way suggest that we have achieved our objectives. The majority of our people still continue to experience dramatic inequalities. We all agree, with one voice, that accelerated service delivery in striving for a better life for all remains fundamental and primary.
That will remain a guiding beacon for all of us. We are quite aware of the herculean labour and challenges ahead of us, and I want to believe that as a country, and as a people, we are better poised to confront these challenges.
In the province we are doing everything in our power to address the basic needs and the development gap which still confront us, especially in the deep rural areas. The question before us is: How we can improve the material conditions and the economic lives of our people in those rural areas without disrupting their communal style of living? Our programmes, as a province, of poverty alleviation and the provision of shelter, water, schools, clinics, electricity and roads are well on course. They do partly address the problem of unemployment, though not in a permanent way.
We are well on course in addressing the damage caused by the recent floods. We have managed to repair the schools, the houses and the roads that were destroyed. We would like to thank the national Government and those individuals, the good Samaritans, who managed to offer in kind to assist in our programme of repairing those damages.
Attempts are under way, through the restructured Mpumalanga Development Corporation, to address the plight of the emerging farmers and the emerging entrepreneurs, and the housing questions of all sectors of our community. Hon members will note that the province is almost 60% rural. The questions of farmers and farming are therefore critical. We hope these institutions will help broaden the participation of our previously disadvantaged communities in meaningful and sustainable economic activity, thereby reducing the unemployment rate drastically.
We are making special efforts to ensure that there is collaboration between the private and the public sector to address these problems. To be able to successfully address the issues of social backlogs and income distribution adequately, a climate conducive to sustainable growth should be created. We are aware that it is our responsibility to create such a climate. We are, therefore, trying hard to create that climate, and the confidence and hope for a better life. The question of HIV/Aids still remains a challenge for the province, and the country as such. As a province we are doing everything possible to increase the level of awareness about this hazardous disease.
We still believe that the permanent solution lies with us and in our ability as people to prevent and avoid incidences and situations that can expose us to this pandemic.
We are running campaigns in schools and other institutions where we think the rate of young people who are getting this disease is higher. We hope that this will yield fruit down the line.
On the issue of moral regeneration, as captured correctly by the Deputy President, it is really an undisputed fact that we come from a past that was very hostile and violent, and which saw the moral fibre and discipline in the communities wearing away. It is really unfortunate that we still have people who are lingering in that past, people who are still trying to discover themselves, people who are still on a voyage of discovering their identities, and people who still do not believe that the past has caused this damage.
We want to call upon all because, for us as a country to be successful in our project of building a nation that will uphold moral values and discipline, we collectively need to be seen as different political parties conveying one message. We need to take this fight, this quest for building a nation that is nonracial and nonsexist, to all institutions that can be found in our societies - churches, schools, etc. Our schools cannot be schools if the communities surrounding those institutions have just collapsed. We cannot speak of a nation if families have collapsed. We owe all this to our past and, still, people here deny the fact that that past has done us a disfavour. [Interjections.]
Let me also join our colleagues in commending the Presidency for the manner in which it was able to deal with the question of traditional leaders. As a province, we must show the Presidency that relations and co-operation are at an acceptable level. As government in the province, we have worked hard with traditional leaders to try to improve the lives of our people in those areas. Very soon we will be granting people title deeds. We have turned those PTOs, or permissions to occupy, into title deeds and that was with the co-operation of the traditional leaders.
The hon Deputy President has made a clarion call for all parties to work together for the success of the coming elections. I think all of us here will be doing this country good if we could … [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): The hon Ntwanambi will deliver her maiden speech.
Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, could I just respond, through you, to what Mr Ackermann, who is sitting over there, said, namely that people need AZT. AZT does not cure Aids. All we need in this country is a cure. He should take note of that.
The ANC has been, and will always be, a nonracial and a nonsexist movement that promotes women to leadership levels on the same basis as their male counterparts. No other political party has written in its constitution that women have a right to be elected to positions of power.
The ANC-led Government has made it its priority not only to develop, train and empower urban women, but to give special emphasis to the plight of rural women. The ANC acknowledges that everyone is created equal and in some religions it is accepted that people are created in the image of God. We are therefore outraged that someone, especially a senior public office bearer, who has run away now, would have the audacity to criticise one of God’s creations. It makes him an ugly person as well. [Interjections.]
Many like Freda Adams have left this dysfunctional alliance and some are on their way out. Not only did Freda Adams leave the party, but she has taken away their support. Only last week women in Chris Hani Park told Mr Marais that they were also ugly and asked him whether he had forgotten that they, like those in other areas, needed money from social services. The NP, together with the DP, have misled us. They have failed the women of this province. What is worse, the NP is now grumbling in the belly of the DP. [Interjections.] They are.
Women in the townships of the Western Cape have not benefited from the social services funding. Instead, most have had their funding cut without any reason. The MEC responsible boasted of having helped women to start up projects, but only three areas have actually received that funding. It is also significant that the areas receiving this funding are areas where he has support. He is not an MEC for support but an MEC for all people.
This Government has created structures, in all sectors, that are geared towards improving the lives of women, including Mrs Versveld’s. [Laughter.] In almost all the provinces, with the exception of the Western Cape, there are currently offices for the status of women. This definitely affects the budget processes, and what happens in the Western Cape leaves much to be desired. Yes, there is no office on the status of women in this province. I live here and I was born here. I know what I am saying.
If one were to ask for the breakdown of employees in this province, one would find that out of 50 persons employed in top official positions, there would only be one or two women. Of these two women, neither would be African. [Interjections.]
The MEC was quoted as saying that there are no competent women in this province. [Interjections.] Even last Sunday, the hon Mr Marais could not debate with the solid and dignified Lynne Brown because there is nothing that he has done for the women of this province. [Interjections.] [Applause.] He has chosen to run away. It is a pity that he is not here.
When Mr Marais was the MEC for Local Government in our province, instead of making sure that women developed and were trained for leadership positions, he chose the path of taking the national Government to court where he subsequently lost. That money could have been used to develop women councillors. We have come to expect that kind of behaviour from him, because when he was in the House of Representatives, there were no women. If there were any, there were one or two.
Why is the Democratic Alliance, particularly the MEC, so quiet on the subject of the woman who is salaried and who is their candidate but also draws a state grant? Why are they not mentioning that? That is a scandal. [Interjections.] I say to Mrs Versfeld that that is a scandal. [Interjections.] Is it provincial money which is going to be paid when Mr Marais loses the case against Frieda Adams? We still need the response which Mr Marais promised women two weeks ago when they went to see him. They all sang in one voice: ``Out you go, Mr Marais; in you come, Lynne Brown.’’ He promised to answer but, up to now, nothing has been forthcoming. I must say now that no DA can politically ruin Lynne Brown. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms C MABUZA (Northern Province): Chairperson, Deputy President and hon members, the year 2000 brought significant progress to the people of the Northern Province on the road towards development and the deepening of our democratic system.
All members will recall that the Northern Province was affected very greatly by the worst natural disaster that has visited our region in living memory. The rains and floods washed away countless homes and destroyed some of the province’s most vital infrastructure such as roads and bridges.
I am pleased to report that the province is in the process of recovering from the disaster. The worst of the times brought to the fore the best human qualities of our people. We received generous contributions from companies in the private sector and from individuals who opened their hearts to respond to the plight of the flood victims. The disaster has left its scars on the region and a significant portion of our annual provincial budget had to be shifted towards flood relief and the reconstruction of vital infrastructure.
The Northern Province is on the verge of a new chapter in its social and economic development. We have to meet the challenges of sustained economic growth and the creation of a society filled with hope and expectations for all our people.
Early in 2000, we held a very successful growth and development summit which was attended by more than 400 representatives from organised business, labour, the academic community, churches and parastatals. At the summit, new investments to the value of more than R10 billion were announced. The summit gave a new thrust to the Government’s vision of the Northern Province as a peaceful, vibrant and self-sustaining province that can be a significant contributor to the national wealth within the next two decades.
As a provincial government, our objectives remain to fight poverty through development, investment and job creation. We live in a province and region where poverty, underdevelopment, malnutrition, disease and illiteracy are everyday realities for the vast majority of our people.
Our progress is supported by a wide cross section of provincial role- players. In recent months, we have created a development oversight committee that is representative of all sectors of society. This committee meets regularly, not only to ensure co-ordination, but also to act as a watchdog over government activities. This is a unique institution in our country where civil society becomes a meaningful partner in both the formulation and execution of policy.
Our economic policy remains focused on three important areas, namely mining, tourism and agriculture. Government is committed to unlocking the full potential of these sectors through strategic support in the provision of infrastructure.
Last week we saw the signing of a formal agreement between the governments of Mozambique, Zimbabwe and South Africa to create a transfrontier park that will develop into the greatest wildlife sanctuary in the southern hemisphere. This will turn our vision of a golden horseshoe of conservation along the borders into a reality. The immediate target is to grow the tourism market by 50% over the next five years and to encourage visitors to stay in the province for longer periods.
In the past year we had constructive discussions with agricultural bodies on the future of the industry. There is mutual consensus that food security should remain a high priority, and that both Government and civil society have a duty to look after the safety of farmers and farmworkers, and their families and possessions.
At the same time we also have the shared responsibility to ensure that progressive and humane labour relations are practised on farms in the province. We will not tolerate the economic exploitation and physical abuse of workers, including those from neighbouring countries.
In recent months there has been a disturbing increase in the number of incidents that can be ascribed to racism or xenophobia. Some of these were displayed in the headlines of the media, such as the painting of a young schoolgirl accused of shoplifting, or the brutal assault on and humiliation of a young man in Potgietersrus.
Without commenting on the merits of these cases which are currently before the courts, we believe it is time that all political parties and concerned individuals raise their voices against racism and intolerance.
Despite dire predictions in 1994, the Northern Province has been a haven of good interpersonal relations and racial tolerance. All of us must join hands to ensure that these good relations are not disturbed by extreme elements within our society.
Our economic activities will be pointless if they do not lead to a significant improvement in the quality of life of our people in the province. We need to invest in the creation of a stable society that is healthy, well nourished, literate and informed.
Although the official statistics indicate that the percentage of the provincial population infected with HIV/Aids has decreased marginally, we will not relax our vigilance against this pandemic. Our HIV/Aids programme is gaining momentum. Earlier this month a provincial Aids council was launched. Representatives from the broad civil society, Government, business, labour, the churches and communities are joining hands on this council to determine strategies and to monitor the effectiveness of our policies.
A significant portion of our health budget is directed towards the provision of primary health care and to bringing basic, affordable health services within reach of every person in the province. We now have 360 clinics serving the health needs of the province and there has been an 18% increase in the volume of patients seeking primary health services.
Education continues to receive priority attention. There are promising signs that we may be in an upward cycle and that the programmes and initiatives launched in the mid-nineties are now starting to bear fruit. The provincial government has committed itself to policies of fiscal responsibility and to the battle against corruption, fraud, mismanagement and wastage of precious resources. Since the launch of our anticorruption campaign in December 1999, we have finalised almost 1 000 cases where complaints had been launched by the public or which were detected by our own internal organs.
We are committed to the Batho Pele programme and to instilling a spirit of hard work, honesty and commitment to service throughout the public sector.
The coming local government elections are only a few days away. We trust that in the Northern Province they will be conducted without any problems or disruptions. Once the rivalry between opposing parties have subsided, we owe it to the future of the province to set aside our differences and work jointly for the common good of all our people.
The provincial government is committed to evolving a broad spectrum of stakeholders, including opposition parties, in both the formulation and execution of policy. We call on leaders and supporters of political groupings to support us in our efforts to create a provincial vision and consensus. [Applause.]
Mr J F BLOCK (Northern Cape): Mr Chairperson, Deputy President, hon members, the Northern Cape has started with the RDP of the soul by forming an interdenominational committee with religious leaders. We are intending to hold the second provincial conference in Kimberley in December 2000, with specific focus on service delivery issues and social crimes such as alcohol abuse. We will also look at family wellbeing, the plight of farmworkers, employment and will deal with other issues. We will also join the mainstream delegation to the Vatican in 2001 to address the role of the church in combating moral decay along with the Government in our country.
As part of the Government’s efforts to combat corruption and fraud, a drive to instil social morality has borne fruit. The fraud and corruption helpline has yielded its intended results. We need to identify all social evils that need urgent interjection through our rural development plans such as farm schools, skilled labour, job opportunities and recreation for farmworkers. It is imperative for the province that our partnership between the religious sector, the Government and our communities is strengthened.
The department of health, welfare and education has an integrated programme for children infected with and affected by the HIV/Aids virus. We have launched our provincial Aids Council, and part of the task identified was the establishment of a multipurpose centre for people living with Aids. One centre has been established in Kimberley. This centre offers skills such as counselling, community mobilisation, and life skills to people living with Aids.
We are looking at creating similar centres in other parts of the province. We have established young ambassadors who target young people in different parts of the region to raise awareness around the dangers of HIV/Aids, and bring the young people on board with the provincial plan of action. I am happy to say that preparations are in place for the commemoration of World Aids Day on 1 December. The theme for that day is: ``Man can make a difference.’’
We have, as a province, taken certain initiatives. We have already trained 116 home-based care-givers. We have also trained 10 trainers to help people who have to treat or live with people, family or relatives who are found to be HIV-positive. There are 58 counsellors who were trained, 28 of them in the rapid test technique. We have identified 2 sites in the province, one in De Aar and one in Kimberley, for the introduction of a prevention of mother-to-child transmission programme. Also, 28 mineworkers from Kimberley and Harry Oppenheimer mines have been trained in STD/HIV training. In recognising the role traditional healers play in our province, 53 traditional healers have been trained in HIV/Aids education and counselling.
The Northern Cape has not been excluded from its fair share of racism and violence. We had an incident where our MEC for safety and liaison was insulted in Hartswater by off-duty SAPS members. This matter is under investigation and the report will be due soon. As everywhere else, women and children continue to be victims of rape and abuse. A case of assault has been opened against a white farmer who unleashed his dogs on a black worker in full view of the police. This matter is receiving the urgent attention it deserves.
Farmworkers continue to bear the brunt in spite of changes in the province. We believe that it is important that we also deal with the plight of the farmworkers so that we ensure that the development that passes throughout the country also reaches them, because they are the most deprived ones in this instance. We are, however, taking the necessary steps to ensure that we mobilise, inform and educate farmworkers about their rights to ensure that they can stand and fight for their future and better job conditions.
The aim of the province is to develop an obsession with poverty and as part of our contribution to the alleviation of poverty we have initiated a R10 million poverty alleviation project, which is an integrated project of all government departments, targeting specifically women and youth. It is our intention to focus on the real plight of women and young people.
The local government elections must in the end consolidate government programmes for the poor, the rural and the unemployed for us. We are confident that with our ``Cabinet meets the people’’ programme we have been able to interact with our communities. We have been able to inform them and we are confident that they understand the real obstacles that we face, and the role they have to play. We are confident that as government we will be able to contribute to the upliftment of their conditions.
The new legislature building has been our own contribution to the integration of the former township of Galeshewe and the white area of Kimberley. This building will serve as a monument that will bring closer the people of Galeshewe and Kimberley. This project on its own will help to empower the emerging contractors and ensure that most of our people get employment and acquire skills, and will also contribute to the economy of the province. As part of our partnership with the private sector, De Beers has launched a R600 million plant which will give a further impetus to our economy.
A couple of weeks ago the City of Kimberley secured a motor vehicle assembly plant. That in itself is going to give a further impetus to the economy of our province. We are confident that we are on track and that our people stand behind us, and the results of the local elections will prove that, indeed, we stayed with them during the tough times and during the times of success. [Applause.]
Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, it is really an honour to follow on speakers such as the hon Block, hon Lynne Brown and others, because we have heard some remarkable speeches here today. I just want to start by touching on that issue a little bit, so that we can contextualise exactly what some South Africans are saying and what other South Africans are saying to our in 1980 voters.
In 1980 when I was a young man we organised a school boycott. In 1982 we formed an organisation called the Lenasia Youth League to fight the tricameral elections. One of the things we used to tell the youth at the time was that they should be patriotically South African. What we meant by that was that young people must fight injustice, racism, and poverty, and fight for the dignity of all South Africans and for a nonracial democratic South Africa. What we were talking about was a simple thing - nation- building - which is what we are talking about today.
Today somebody like the hon Van Niekerk can stand up in this House and say that there was a German investor who came into this country and that he sat down with the German investor. He unashamedly and unabashedly tells us here in this House that he told the German investor that this was the worst country in the world to live in. [Interjections.] He told the German that this country had the highest crime rate in the world, the highest poverty level, the highest Aids rate and the highest this, that and the other.
That foreigner has to tell the hon Van Niekerk: ``No, wait a second; I have come to this country for a reason.’’ The hon Van Niekerk - bless him - has actually told us the exact words of the foreigner. The foreigner said that South Africa offered him an opportunity to make a difference in peoples’ lives in a developing country. He tells a South African citizen who is a member of Parliament and somebody who belongs to a political party that he has a good reason to be here. [Interjections.] That is the issue that I want to raise just briefly, because I think that the question of patriotism in this country …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Sit down, Mr Moosa. What is your point of order, hon member?
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to know from you whether it is parliamentary to tell blatant lies in this House when referring to speeches made in this House.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Moosa, are you telling blatant lies?
Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I am definitely not, Madam Chair. If you look at the Hansard …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Moosa, if you are telling blatant lies, that would definitely be unparliamentary. What I will do is ask that we look at Hansard and at Mr Van Niekerk’s speech to establish whether you are indeed telling blatant lies or not. You may continue.
Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, a number of other members remembered the same words that I remember, but the Hansard will show it up.
That is also an issue of patriotism, because when we speak about moral regeneration and those kinds of things, we must also speak about honesty. We must be able to stand up and hold our views with conviction. If we stand up in the NCOP and tell members of the NCOP that we told a foreign investor all these bad things about the country and the foreign investor said to us: ``No, this is actually a good place to be,’’ why not be honest and say so? I think that is also a question of the integrity of that hon member.
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, on a point of order: You have just ruled that we will not pursue this issue, and the hon member is doing just that.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [Inaudible.]
Mr M V MOOSA: Thank you, Chairperson.
Let me just go further, because the overall point that I want to make is about patriotism. Let us go a little bit further. We have the hon Peter Marais standing up in this House - he thinks we are all belligerent idiots
- and saying that we must fight poverty, we must fight this, we must fight that. That same hon member belongs to a political party that has, for the past six years, opposed every single developmental and patriotic issue relating to nation-building that this country has attempted. [Interjections.] I will go through them, in case Mr Van Niekerk sniggers.
When legislation was tabled in the Western Cape legislature in order to protect innocent, poor farmworkers who were being oppressed by farm owners, it was the political party that Mr Marais belongs to that opposed it. They voted against it. When pieces of legislation dealing with domestic workers, labour laws, the rights of workers and other issues were put on the table in these parliaments, the political party that Mr Marais belongs to opposed them. When land reform legislation was put on the table in this country it was that political party that opposed it. When the issue of getting medicines for South Africans at a cheaper price was put by the hon the Minister of Health, Dr Zuma at the time, it was that political party and the DP that wanted to foster the interests of pharmaceutical companies that were reaping profits off our people. [Interjections.]
If one looks at a whole range of things, it is precisely that political party that opposed it. But, again, unashamedly and unabashedly, Mr Marais flashes the Human Rights Commission document to us in this House and says: ``This document says that we must fight for rights.’’ His political party opposed the legislation that created the Human Rights Commission.
Mr C ACKERMANN: [Inaudible.]
Mr M V MOOSA: Yes, I remember that because I was the chair of the committee at the time. [Interjections.]
I must say to hon members that further than that, the hon Peter Marais belongs to a political party that has put up 30 candidates for mayor and district chair in this province, 25 of whom are white males, four coloured males and one a white female. Where are the African people in that list of candidates? [Interjections.] That is the political party that speaks to us about fighting racism, about transformation, about being involved in nation- building and, most importantly, about being patriotic.
Let me tie the point up by saying this. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
Mr M V MOOSA: When Peter Marais told voters somewhere in this province that people should rather follow documents other than the Constitution of this country because the Constitution of this country was below those documents, he was showing unpatriotic behaviour, and that was an act of disloyalty to the Constitution of this country. [Interjections.] I must say that when Lynne Brown says to this House that what we need in this country is a revolution, she is not trying to score political points off hon Van Niekerk and Mr Marais, and so on, but what she means is that we need people of all calibres and creeds, all political parties in this country, to become part of the process of nation-building.
The ANC - and they would not understand this - is not a political party. The ANC is a social movement for change. The ANC has 15 000 branches in every nook and cranny of this country, where, in little villages and big towns, people huddle together and talk about how we are going to make a better life for all. They talk about how we are going to deliver water to the people in the villages, and how we are going to deliver telecommunications to the people of those villages, and so forth. That is what the ANC is - a social movement for change.
The ANC, by being the ruling party in this country, has tried to make sure that Cabinet and Government and Parliament are a social movement for change. Until political parties such as the DP, the New NP and the ``Democratic Mis-Alliance’’ come together and try to be part of such movements of social change, they are not going to understand what we mean when we speak about patriotism and moral regeneration in this country.
But the point goes further, leaving them aside. Moral regeneration involves building a work ethic in our country. Moral regeneration involves making sure that we empower all the little businesses and all the people in this country in order to become part of a process of spreading the wealth of this country and poverty alleviation, rather than supporting the big corporate organisations and big companies in every single whim and fancy that they have. Moral regeneration involves taking the youth of this country who are living, who are growing up … [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mrs Versveld, when you speak in the House, hon members listen to you, but when they speak, you read a newspaper. Would you kindly desist? Continue, Mr Moosa.
Mr M V MOOSA: As the Deputy President knows, moral regeneration extends further to the way in which the youth in this country are beginning to adopt the values of a global world. The Deputy President mentioned that in his speech today. Today the youth of this country surf the net on a daily basis. Today the youth of this country are exposed to a level of media and communication far more powerful than any of us can imagine.
That particular channel of communication to the youth of this country, who are the leaders of the future, is the channel that we need to begin using effectively in order to ensure that we instil the right kinds of values in that new generation that is building up, in order to create the new society that we are trying to build. We do not need the kind of rhetoric that we receive from people like Peter Marais, who comes here and tells us that he is fighting poverty when we know that the Western Cape has not built houses; when we know that people in Khayelitsha and Guguletu still labour under the same problems with a government he is in control of.
The Western Cape government has not used a whole lot of the section 76 power that it has to do the things that Peter Marais says they have done and that the ANC, as the national Government, has not done.
So, at the end of the day, we need to be honest South Africans. If we want to be patriotic, we need to look inward. Let us look at ourselves, and let us look at our structures and our institutions. If we want the youth to respect these organisations, let us learn to respect them ourselves. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Deputy President, the NCOP has surprised me once again. The members have obviously been enlivened by your participation and presence, so we now ask you to respond.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, it has been something to listen to the debate. Quite a number of things have been said and speakers have raised a number of issues. If I were to respond to all of them, I believe I could take more time than they took, if I were to deal with each and every one of them. So I will not necessarily do so. I will maybe highlight just one or two issues that I think are important and need to be highlighted, because I do believe that there were inputs made here that were very sober, very instructive, very constructive and very helpful to all of us as public representatives. I am sure that Hansard will have it on record, and that it will be important reading to guide us as we go forward.
Let me thank you, Chairperson, and indeed the House for the opportunity. I also want to thank Premier Shilowa who is with us. He is the only premier who is here. I am making this point because quite a number of points were raised about this particular House, its importance, its role and also because the Deputy Chairperson, I think, wanted space to deal with that issue in order to defend the House. I think he did very well in articulating the feelings.
I am also raising the issue because Premier Shilowa talked about the programme of the House. If we were to recognise and put in its place this House in particular, as participants in this House we would have to perform in a particular way. I take it that it was known for some weeks that there would be a discussion today. This House exists in order, basically, to allow provinces to participate in this form together at a level which is as one of the national parliaments.
I therefore do not understand why premiers, generally, do not think it is important to drop everything and come here, particularly if it is not a question of this House saying it was going to meet the next day and people have had the opportunity. [Interjections.] In my view, I think, we might undermine the House ourselves if people begin to say: ``Maybe this House is not that important’’ and begin to complain. This is because we cannot have a situation when we are having a meeting, a time for coming together towards the end of the year, but we do not have all the leaders from the provinces present, with provinces sending representatives instead, which is fine. That is what we need to do, and we have heard what the provinces are saying. However, I think in a sense it does remove something from the House. That is why I thought I should thank Premier Shilowa.
It is not a waste of time to come to the National Council of Provinces. It is, in fact, part of the work voters have given us. We have absolutely no reason not to take it seriously, and we want it to be taken seriously by other people.
I am looking forward to an opportunity, probably next year, when we can look at our programme. I do not know whether that is one of the points Premier Shilowa raised, because he was saying that the programme at times is a bit of a problem. I do have this belief, as an individual, that for people to be clear about what they are doing they need time to discuss issues.
That means to me - and I do not want to reflect on my other life when I was in the province - that one might need a sufficient amount of time, rather than a day, to discuss issues so that one can have a fair idea of what each and every province of the nine is doing. I think it is always a case of headlines. I am not sure whether it would help me if I was not a member of Parliament and I was sitting at home, listening, wanting to hear the whole picture of the country, namely what is happening. It might be an incentive also, and I am not saying that because politicians love talking, for people to come and give the benefit of what they are doing in this House. Premiers are therefore important. It would be one thing if there were apologies, which is more the exception than practice.
It is very rare that we have the House full of premiers. I thought I should make that point because to me it is important if we are going to look at the role and the place of this House. This House is a unique one. It is the only House in which we have all elements of government coming together. This is not the case in the Other Place. Therefore, in terms of co- operative governance, it is a critical House, but also in terms of informing one another and the nation about what is happening in this country. We cannot lose that opportunity.
If I had to take a final decision and it would be my decision only, I would say that when this House meets on matters of this nature, members should actually have a programme of more than a day, so that people have the opportunity to discuss, debate and inform one another, so that we do not live in the same country as if we are living in different countries. Some become experts on their provinces only. They know nothing about what is happening in the next province.
I believe that this House adds value to our democratic practice and multiparty democracy. It is here where people come and debate matters - where it matters most, in the provinces as well as in local government. It is in this House where we have organised local government coming to discuss issues. I would say that if we are at all interested to know what is happening in this country, there ought to be some detailed report about how our local government is working, because that is where things happen. In any country it is what happens either in the big cities or in small towns that will tell one what is happening. Therefore I would say one needs more time to listen. Is Johannesburg as our leading industrial city doing very well? I am sure we would be keen to know. Is the Western Cape doing very well? Is Durban doing very well? Do we know? Is Thohoyandou doing very well?
I think we need to look at it in one form or the other, and therefore to give even that kind of representation of organised local government some space, so that it is not just a question of having it for the sake of it, but for the purpose that we have a total picture in our hands. You, Chairperson, sitting there, you should be saying: ``I have a total picture of what is happening in the provinces and local government.’’ The members here should be saying that as well. I think that in a sense will answer the questions and the doubts, because it is the manner in which this House will operate that will remove the doubts of whether this is an important House or not.
I think it is very important. I thought I should just underline that point. I love debate. I like people to discuss issues. If we all did this, then we would not risk the situation of having people come with speeches and then disappear, just to say ``I must tell them’’ and then go, without being interested in what other people are saying. That indicates something as well. If we think we need to be respected in what we are saying, one must respect other people as well by listening to them. They do have views to put across. That brings about respect.
I think we have raised a number of important issues which are indeed issues that face this country as serious challenges. But I think it is in the manner in which we deal with the House that we could move in a particular way. I have heard very exciting reports from other provinces, what the provinces are doing, and I am sure other provinces are learning from others because they are not doing exactly the same thing.
We have dealt with political issues and the history of this country. What is it that informs what we are doing, and what is it, therefore, that we are doing that should inform what we are trying to do to reach our objectives? We have raised issues, the issue of racism in particular. I am sure people become a little bit uneasy when this question is discussed, but it is a reality. I think members must have time to talk about it, and we must try to help ourselves to take it out of our system because it is in our system. And it will remain in our system if we do not address it in a particular way.
We have talked about traditional leaders. Again, this is an issue that we need to deal with in a particular way, because the majority of provinces are best placed to make an input on this question, as has been done by some of them. The provinces are where the traditional authorities and leaders are. I think it is important for us not to just depend on what the media says and not be able to interact on the issue and help to find solutions where we think we can.
The issues of rural development were also raised. As members know, the Government is following the integrated sustainable rural development model, which is quite critical to many of the issues that colleagues raised here, about the changing of the quality of life of our people in the rural areas. I am sure that at some point we could discuss that issue as a single issue because, I believe, it is an issue that will certainly tilt the balance in the delivery and quality of life of the people, given the fact that the bigger percentage of unemployment is in the rural areas, the bigger percentage of illiteracy is in the rural areas, and that the bigger percentage of everything that is bad is in the rural areas. So if we focused on it, it would be an important issue. We might at some point turn it around.
We also have a programme that I think we will be dealing with quite vigorously next year, which is the issue of urban renewal. We believe it should have a different approach, because, so far, when people talk about urban renewal they think about the city centres that are dying economically, and they make plans about the city centres and not about the peripheries of cities where there are squatters and townships. We believe we have got to address the issue.
I am happy that Premier Shilowa talked about Alexandra - that we always give it as an example. It is an example because it presents a very funny situation. It is on the periphery of the suburbs of Johannesburg and, indeed, very close to one of the richest suburbs, but makes such a contrast and, therefore, it is an important matter to look at. I am sure we will have time to deal with this.
There are many other issues that were raised, such as the brain drain. If I had time I would deal with this issue, because we always look at it from one angle - the complaint that people are leaving, etc, and, yet we have a country. We are all here, and we have got to do something about this country. It says something about our feelings of belonging to this country. What is it that we think we need to do to help this country? What is it that I feel even though I might not be white? I might be black or yellow, but the fact that I want to run away from my country and do not want to make a contribution is an issue that I think should be debated at some point as a single issue, so that we can bring about awareness in the country.
My belief is that parliaments are areas where national issues should be debated in order to influence the population, the people who have elected us. I think this issue does need to be discussed, not necessarily to discourage people who want to go away, but to actually indicate what the weaknesses are of people who run away when there are challenges. But, again, one needs time to do so.
I do not want to deal with the specific issues that were raised concerning how the Government is not spending money on everybody. I never knew that the Government was selective in the manner in which it delivers to people. One hears when politicians speak, and one needs time to deal with that. At times it is well and good to make a political statement very wide, but it is quite another thing to sit down and interrogate the facts and reality of it. One of the things we need to do as politicians is to develop some honesty so that we are able to deal with matters on our hands, which are very serious matters and responsibilities, in a very responsible manner.
That is precisely the reason why we are saying that we need to identify national priority issues. We, as politicians, should all agree that these issues are national issues that we cannot politick about and that we should be united on them. They are issues that seek to build our country. We can find these issues. One of them is moral regeneration. It does not belong to any political party. We have to remedy our society. What can we do, jointly, if we put the interests of the country before our own interests or before the interests of our political parties?
The point that I am making is that one might need to look at how we function in terms of time, the programme and the issues, as well as at who participates. I am not at all saying that the MECs are not important, and I hope the MECs are not going to say that I am saying they are not important. They are very important. They always come, in any case, because their legislatures need them. However, I am just saying it is very important for the premiers, as leaders in the provinces, to participate in this House.
Thank you very much for the opportunity and the debate. I think it has been very exciting. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
TOURISM AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr S L E FENYANE: Chairperson, I rise to give a report of the Mediation Committee on the Tourism Amendment Bill. The Tourism Amendment Bill was passed with amendments by the National Assembly on 19 March 2000, and then submitted to the NCOP for its perusal and approval. The Bill was then navigated through the elaborate NCOP committee process, which included, inter alia, the submission of the Bill to provinces, and then the procurement of sundry mandates from those provinces.
On 3 October this year the NCOP passed the already amended Bill with a deluge of further amendments agreed to by the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs. As the Bill in question is a section 76 one, it was then referred back to the National Assembly for its further perusal and approval in accordance with the provision of subsection 1(c) of section 76 of Act 108 of 1996, affectionately known as the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
Upon referral of the amended Bill to the National Assembly, that House accepted some of the NCOP’s amendments and held in dispute five amendments to clauses 3, 4 and 5 of the Bill. The Bill was then referred to the Mediation Committee in accordance with the provisions of section 76(1)(d) of the Constitution. The Mediation Committee met on 1 November and considered the Bill anew. Without any more ado, the Mediation Committee adopted the NCOP amendments to clauses 3 and 5 of the Bill. That activity left the NCOP component of the Mediation Committee pleasantly surprised and somewhat amused.
The only amendments effected by the Mediation Committee were to the proposed new section 21C in clause 4. The NCOP had suggested that the national registrar should prepare and publish a code of conduct and ethics for tourist guides in consultation with sundry stakeholders. The National Assembly thought that the process would render the national registrar’s work intractable if she or he were to prepare that code of conduct in consultation with stakeholders, as that implies that the national registrar must procure consensus from all stakeholders before he or she can arrive at a decision to prepare a code of conduct.
The National Assembly component of the Mediation Committee suggested that
the words after consultation'' be used instead. In legal terms, the words
after consultation’’ mean that a person may consult, but that it is not
mandatory for him or her to seek consensus before a decision is made. We
then agreed to insert the words after consultation'' in the place ofin
consultation’’. The NCOP component of the Mediation Committee thought that
that made a lot of sense, and it is hoped that the House agrees with us.
Roughly, 10% of the NCOP’s amendments were amended by the Mediation Committee. It was clear that the NCOP had fielded an able but shrewd group of negotiators in that committee. I am singularly honoured and humbled to be a member of such a committee. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you defining yourself as shrewd, Mr Fenyane? [Laughter.]
Mr S L E FENYANE: I work with shrewd people. I hope I have learned from them! [Laughter.]
I therefore, on behalf of that committee, commend the report to the House for its adoption. I so move. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Ms B THOMSON: Chairperson, KwaZulu-Natal will actually be abstaining, but not because we are opposed to the amendments. I was part of the Mediation Committee, but time did not allow us to communicate properly with the province, thus not giving us a chance to get a written mandate from the province. That is the reason for our abstaining.
Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, unfortunately the Eastern Cape …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! If you are dealing with your vote, could you table it when we come to it? I actually allowed Ms Thomson because I thought she was making a declaration on behalf of the province, but she was dealing with the vote, and she will have to stand up again just now.
Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, the Eastern Cape is abstaining. Whilst we were part of the discussion in the Mediation Committee, unfortunately the provincial legislature was not in session, so I did not get a mandate. I am saying that we could not refer it back to the province.
Mr A MARAIS: Chairperson, this is not a declaration. I just want to say that the future need not worry about what we are doing, because if we look at the type of …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Could you declare your vote, please? [Laughter.]
Mr A MARAIS: I wanted to say we will support the Bill. Our democracy is maturing, Madam. [Laughter.]
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution (Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal abstaining.)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We congratulate the shrewd and skilled negotiators. [Laughter.]
The Council adjourned at 18:40.