MONDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2001 __ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY __ The House met at 14:00. The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation. NEW MEMBERS (Announcement)

The Deputy Speaker announced that the vacancies caused by the resignations of Mr S Naidoo and Mr S J de Beer had been filled, in accordance with item 6(3) of Schedule 6 to the Constitution, 1996, by the nomination of Mr L C Mothiba and Mr J T Maseka, respectively, with effect from 20 February 2001. OATH Mr L C Mothiba and Mr J T Maseka, accompanied by Mr S Abram and Mr M N Ramodike, made and subscribed the oath and took their seats.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr A MLANGENI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - (1) notes - (a) the appointment of President Thabo Mbeki as the honorary chairperson of the prestigious President’s Cup Golf event to be held in Fancourt, South Africa, in 2002; and (b) that President Mbeki is only the fifth person to be accorded this accolade after Gerald Ford, George Bush Sr and Bill Clinton, and only the second non-American, after John Howard of Australia; (2) believes this is an important recognition of our President’s formidable stature, and a milestone for South African sport in the world sporting arena; (3) wishes the organisers of the unique tournament, where the golfers are not paid and all profits are given to charity, every success; and (4) congratulates the President on his appointment. [Applause.] Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House - (1) notes - (a) the failure of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Filling of Vacancies in the Commission for Gender Equality to short-list Ms Rhoda Kadalie; (b) the international recognition Ms Kadalie enjoys as a gender expert and activist; and (c) her excellent work as a Human Rights Commissioner and the independence of judgment that makes her so suitable a candidate for the constitutional watchdog bodies; and (2) deplores the omission and exhorts the committee to reconsider her exclusion. [Interjections.] Mrs I MARS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House - (1) supports the President’s positive response to an urgent appeal from the Mozambiquan authorities for assistance for an estimated 200 000 flood victims, and expresses the wish that this humanitarian mission, which is to be undertaken by the SA National Defence Force, will be as successful as last year’s much-lauded operation; (2) expresses its sympathy with those who suffer loss of lives and livelihood; and (3) prays for the safe return of all our people deployed in this important mission. [Applause.] Mr N B FIHLA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - (1) notes - (a) the riotous behaviour of 30 000 rugby fans in the aftermath of Saturday’s Super 12 match between the Stormers and the Cats at Newlands rugby grounds; and (b) that DA councillors banned soccer from being played at Newlands because of the supposed noise 2 000 soccer fans would have made; (2) condemns the unbecoming and reprehensible behaviour of these rugby fans, and the fact that, despite this horrific behaviour, rugby is still being played at Newlands without a murmur of discontent; and (3) believes that the decision to ban soccer from Newlands is motivated by the particularly vicious kind of racism found in the Western Cape. [Applause.] Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move: That the House - (1) notes with regret that, due to a perception that the SAPS can no longer protect them, communities are increasingly taking the law into their own hands; (2) condemns, in the strongest possible terms, all forms of vigilantism; and (3) urges the Government to empower and equip the SAPS to fulfil their constitutional duty to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic of South Africa and their property. Chief N Z MTIRARA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM: That the House - (1) notes the major concern of the amakhosi, who would like to help in building a new society in South Africa; (2) acknowledges that the UDM is perturbed that the majority party did not nominate any traditional leader to participate in the debate on a matter that affected traditional leadership but, instead, preferred to nominate a Member of Parliament who could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be regarded as an authority on the matter of chieftainship or be a duly accredited nominee of the traditional leaders’ structure; and (3) expresses its dissatisfaction with this anomaly and urges the majority party to refrain from such behaviour in future. Mr M T GONIWE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - (1) notes - (a) that one of the founding principles of South Africa’s constitutional democracy is a Bill of Rights with particular reference to social security, food, water and health care; (b) the rights of nations to self-determination and national sovereignty; (c) that the insistent sanctions against Iraq, and attacks on and bombardments of Iraq by the United States and Britain are attacks not only on Iraqi sovereignty, but on helpless children and women; and (d) that the “big brother” attitude of the US denies other countries their sovereign rights by blocking air flights to Iraq, and that the actions of the US are not in keeping with the UN Security Council’s resolutions in respect of Iraq; and (2) calls on the UN to act swiftly to stop the US from destroying the socioeconomic fabric of Iraq and to restore the integrity of the UN itself. [Applause.] Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC: That the House - (1) notes - (a) with dismay the violation of Iraq’s territorial integrity and sovereignty by Britain and the USA, by bombing in which innocent civilians were killed; (b) that the USA and Britain are both permanent members of the supreme body of the United Nations, the Security Council, and must therefore conduct themselves in a manner worthy of their membership; (c) that their lecturing the countries of the South about the rule of law, peace and stability must be doubted until they practise what they preach; (d) that the PAC condemns the aggression against Iraq, which is a violation of international law; and (2) appeals to the United Nations member states not to allow their rights to be usurped by Britain and the USA, and to call on these two aggressors against Iraq to observe the United Nations Charter of which they are signatories. [Applause.] Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die AEB sal voorstel: Dat die Huis - (1) afkeuring daarvan uitspreek dat ouers van kinders wat deur die polisie vervolg is oor die gebruik van dagga dit as ‘n onbenullige misdaad afmaak en die polisie van kwaadwillige vervolging beskuldig; (2) van mening is dat ouers en kinders daarvan moet kennis neem dat die gebruik van dagga of ander verdowingsmiddels volgens die landswette ‘n kriminele oortreding is; (3) alle ouers in Suid-Afrika aanmoedig om hul Godgegewe roeping getrou te vervul en die gees van vrye losbandigheid en morele verval onder ons jeug te bestry; (4) die onmisbare waarde van gesonde dissipline onder ons jeug sal bevestig en die gees van losbandigheid sal beveg; en (5) die Minister versoek om nie in te gryp in die huishoudelike reëls van skole nie, reëls wat ingebed is in trotse tradisies, en gesonde dissipline en groepsverbondenheid bevorder, gedagtig daaraan dat as kinders kan lyk soos hulle wil en aantrek wat hulle wil, hulle naderhand ook wil rook wat hulle wil. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.) [Mr C Aucamp: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the AEB: That the House - (1) expresses its condemnation of the fact that parents of children who have been prosecuted by the police for having used dagga are shrugging this off as a minor misdemeanour and are accusing the police of malicious prosecution; (2) is of the opinion that parents and children should take note that in terms of the country’s laws the use of dagga or other drugs is a criminal offence; (3) urges all parents in South Africa loyally to perform their God- given duty to combat the spirit of licentiousness and moral decay among our youth; (4) confirms the essential value of healthy discipline among our youth and will combat the spirit of licentiousness; and (5) requests the Minister not to intervene in the internal rules of schools - rules which are embedded in proud traditions and which promote healthy discipline and group loyalty - mindful of the fact that if children may look as they wish and wear what they wish, they will eventually also want to smoke whatever they wish to.] Ms T R MODISE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - (1) notes - (a) reports that the President will get an executive, yet basic, jet; (b) that this House adopted the Defence Review which included a section on VIP transport and the need for the upgrading thereof; and (c) that no party in the House expressed delight at the plight of the President when he had to hitchhike to an international meeting; (2) believes that the recent objections by the DP on the acquisition of this jet reflect double standards, inconsistencies and political opportunism; and (3) welcomes the move to acquire a new jet for the President of the Republic so that he can perform his constitutional duties effectively. [Applause.] Mr D K MALULEKE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP: That the House - (1) notes that President Nelson Mandela slammed some leading members of the ANC for unhelpful comments by them, which are breeding insecurity among minority groups, and that he criticised these leading members of the ANC for not being nation-builders … [Interjections.] (2) calls on senior members of the Government and the on-line publication the ANC Today to refrain from inciting racial hatred with comments and statements aimed at certain minorities, racial or cultural groups; and (3) accepts that racism practised by whites and blacks alike must be condemned, and thereby endorses the sentiments expressed by Mr Mandela that South Africa belongs to all who live in it - black and white. [Interjections.] Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the IFP: That the House - (1) notes with due delight that UN observers will soon be deployed in the DRC in preparation for the withdrawal of foreign forces aiding either the DRC or the Tutsi rebels living in the DRC; (2) applauds the Rwandan and Ugandan troops for agreeing on a 15 km pullback with effect from 15 March 2001; (3) compliments the attempts at peace by President Joseph Kabila, despite his undemocratic accession to power, aimed at resolving the two-and-a-half year war in the Great Lakes Region; and (4) welcomes his humble and humane overture in accepting Sir Ketumile Masire’s mediation credentials with a possible resumption of such position by Sir Ketumile Masire. Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order: The last two motions of which notice has been given have been virtually inaudible. May I ask that something be done about the sound system? The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I have already addressed that matter. There does seem to be some problem with the sound system, but it is being attended to. Mr L T LANDERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - (1) notes - (a) the omnipresent divisions and recent upsurge in tensions in the DA caucus; (b) that the basis of the conflict between the New NP and the DP, according to DA Members of Parliament, is the undemocratic, authoritarian and autocratic leadership style of the hon Lance Corporal Tony Leon and his tendency to treat MPs like children … [Laughter.] (c) that the hon Lance Corporal Leon purports to support press freedom, but exposed his own propensity to lecture journalists when he launched a scathing personal attack on a journalist who wrote an unfavourable article about him; and (2) calls on the voters of South Africa to distance themselves from this unworkable alliance, with its centralist-Stalinist leader. [Applause.] Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House notes with concern that - (1) despite the harm it is likely to do to the South African economy, the Minister has decided to implement the Capital Gains Tax in October, which may well inhibit fixed investment and job creation; (2) CGT will be costly and extremely complex to administer; (3) no allowance is made for inflation-related gains; and (4) since income derived from trading activity has been subject to income tax all along, the view that CGT will result in progress on equity grounds is highly questionable.

                       FOETAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME
                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr D H M GIBSON: Mevrou die Speaker, ek stel hiermee sonder kennisgewing voor: Dat die Huis: - (1) kennis neem van die voortslepende probleem van fetale alkoholsindroom, veral ná die skokkende onthulling dat ‘n ses maande oue baba in Uitsig gevind is met ‘n bloedalkoholvlak vyf keer hoër as die toelaatbare vlak in ‘n volwasse motorbestuurder; (2) kennis neem dat die slagoffers van fetale alkoholsindroom aan ernstige gebreke ly, waaronder dwerggroei en probleme met eet, slaap, gehoor, sig en leer; (3) verder kennis neem dat alkoholmisbruik endemies in benadeelde gemeenskappe is en in sekere gebiede tot 15% van kinders wat skoolgereed is aan fetale alkoholsindroom ly; en (4) dus ‘n beroep op alle betrokkenes doen, op watter valk van regering ook al, om die probleem van dié siekte in ons samelewing aan te pak. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.) [Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I move without notice: That the House: - (1) notes the recurring problem of foetal alcohol syndrome after the shocking disclosure that a six-month-old baby was found in Uitsig with a blood-alcohol level five times that permitted in an adult driver; (2) notes that victims of foetal alcohol syndrome suffer from major handicaps, including stunted growth and problems with eating, sleeping, hearing, seeing and learning; (3) further notes that alcohol abuse is endemic in disadvantaged societies and in some areas up to 15% of entry-level school children have foetal alcohol syndrome; and (4) therefore resolves to call on all concerned, at whatever level of government, to address this scourge in our society.] Agreed to. APPEAL FOR RESCUE SERVICES TO HELP FLOOD VICTIMS IN MOZAMBIQUE, MALAWI AND ZIMBABWE (Draft Resolution) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice: That the House - (1) notes that - (a) floods have again struck in Mozambique and in some parts of Malawi and Zimbabwe; and (b) these floods have destroyed property and threaten the life of ordinary people; and (2) calls on the international community to provide rescue services to people caught in floods. Agreed to. DEATH OF SIR DONALD BRADMAN (Draft Resolution) Mr C T FROLICK: Madam Speaker, I move without notice: That the House - (1) expresses its condolences with the Australian nation and the family of the late Sir Donald Bradman, who has passed away at the age of 92; (2) notes that The Don'' was the most prolific run-scorer and greatest batsman in test cricket history, amassing 6 996 test runs at an unrivalled average of 99,94; and (3) acknowledges the immense contributionThe Don’’ made to the gentlemen’s game with his sportmanship and unique talent. Agreed to. NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR LIBRARY AND INFORMATION SERVICES BILL (Second Reading debate) The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, library and information services, or what we generally refer to as LIS, is at the centre of the information revolution. South African society, including the LIS sector, is being transformed in a concerted effort to eliminate past injustices and inequities. The library and information services sector is facing tremendous challenges that need to be overcome in order to promote democracy and the socioeconomic development of our country. These challenges include raising low levels of literary and information literacy; promoting a culture of reading and life-long learning; stimulating the publishing industry to publish more works of both fiction and nonfiction in African languages in order for South Africa to become a nation of readers; and transforming services and library collections to answer the needs of all communities. The council is, therefore, to be established in order to advise Government on the transformation of the library and information services sector, to ensure that the needs of all communities are addressed in a co-ordinated manner and in partnership with my colleague, the hon the Minister of Education, and the provinces, hence the tabling of the legislation before this House. This Bill is a result of wide consultation between my department and the Department of Education, on the one hand, and various players in the library and information services sector on the other. These players include the National Library of South Africa, the legal deposit libraries, provincial library services, provincial government departments responsible for library and information services, metropolitan library services, the Committee of University Librarians, the Committee of Technikon Librarians, the Library and Information Association of South Africa, departments of library and information science at universities and technikons, and many others. Two important reports published by my department, and which served as points of departure for further discussion, lay the theoretical foundation for an advisory council for library and information services in South Africa. The first one was a White Paper on Arts, Culture and Heritage of 1996, which recommended that such a council be established to assist in the formulation of library and information services policy, to provide co- ordinating networks and mechanisms, and to set priorities for extending national library and information services. The council was to provide a vehicle for co-ordination at the national level and advice on linkages between the national and provincial governments. The second report, published in 1997, was a result of an investigation by an interministerial working group into the library and information services functions at the national level. The purpose of the investigation was to advise me and the Minister of Education on appropriate mechanisms, to ensure good governance of the library and information services at the national level and to facilitate maximum availability and use of all relevant information services to advance the reconstruction and development programme. One of the recommendations of the working group was that an advisory council for library and information services be established. The report of the working group pointed out that the impetus for the establishment of the council could be traced back to the existence of previous councils, namely the National Advisory Council on Libraries and Information which existed from 1967 to 1982, the National Library Advisory Council, which existed from 1982 to 1986, and other reports on policy development initiatives and investigations of the early 1990s, that indicated that a need for a council to co-ordinate a fragmented and often marginalised sector was stronger than ever before. That need was reaffirmed and confirmed by the investigation of the interministerial working group seen within the context of using access to information to strengthen our newly democratised society. Constraints resulting from the Constitution, which provides the legislative framework within which library and information services are to be provided, demanded that the body should be an advisory one. The object of the National Council for Library and Information Services Bill of 2000 is to establish a council to advise the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and the Minister of Education on matters relating to library and information services in order to facilitate access to information for all communities. The council must inform and advise the minister on matters relating to the development and co-ordination of library and information services, promotion of co-operation, legislation, policies to govern allocation of public funds, deficiencies of library and information services and priorities needed to eliminate them; the promotion of literacy, a culture of reading and information literacy, and the utilisation of information technology. The functions of the council have been formulated broadly in order to create a proper operational framework for the council and to ensure the maximum benefit of its activities to all users of libraries and information services. The functions can be divided into two categories. The first category pertains to the council’s functions in advising the two Ministers on various aspects of library and information services, including development, co-ordination and legislation. Of importance will also be policy formulation regarding the allocation of public funds, training of library staff and promotion of literacy, a culture of reading and information literacy. The second category of functions is of a more general nature, according to which the Council must co-ordinate responses of the library and information services to problems, liaise with other bodies and councils, and play an advocacy role. It will be expected of the proposed council to make sensible and practical recommendations within the framework of realistic funding possibilities, of transforming the South African library and information services to the advantage of all users of information and thereby also to strengthen the National System of Innovation. The Council will bear a heavy burden of responsibility, since it will have to ensure that the needs of all components of the library and information services sector, and the communities that they serve are considered and brought to the attention of myself and my colleague, the Minister of Education. The council will consist of twelve members to be appointed by me, with the concurrence of the Minister of Education, and after a process of public nomination. One of the members will be the National Librarian of South Africa. Liasa, the Library and Information Association of South Africa, would also be represented on the council in order to facilitate co- operation between the council and the professional association of the library and information services sector. Its members will have the necessary expertise and insight into the totality of all aspects that affect library and information services delivery and should propose innovative solutions to long-standing as well as new problems. The members should therefore be well-informed of the role of information in society and should have experience in research, development and education matters pertaining to library and information services. Importantly, recommendations should always be made in close consultation with all the communities the council will serve, so that there will be input from grass- roots level as well. Library and information services in South Africa should be revitalised from the bottom up, with the council steering and co-ordinating new ideas and initiatives for restructuring this sector. Information, and access thereto through libraries and others means, will play a vital role in furthering democratisation and promoting human rights and human development in South Africa, as well as enabling and empowering communities to participate in the governance system. According to the Human Development Report 2000 of the United Nations, human rights and human development share a common vision and a common purpose - to secure the freedom, the well-being and the dignity of all people everywhere. The council should have the vision to integrate these local needs and ideals with those of the global information society, which offers both advantages and challenges to developing communities. It is therefore clear that the council will have a challenging and exciting task ahead of it. I hope that the House will support this Bill. [Applause.] Mme N M TSHEOLE: Mme Sebui le bagaetsho, dumelang. Re simolotse ngwaga ka diphetogo. Ke kopa gore o ntetle gore ke nopole Mopresidente fa ne a re: Gradually, step by step, our country proceeds further away from its painful past. We, its citizens, who are very close to the coalface of change, may not easily see the steady transformation that informs all aspects of our national life. Ke nnete. Go a kgonega gore re nagane gore fa re dira molao wa dilaeborari, re seka ra o tsaya tsia, re nagane gore ke molaonyana fela o o sa ameng matshelo a rona. Ke batla go le raya ke re, re tsene mo diphetogong, re tshwere re fetola dilo tse di amang matshelo a rona. Dilaeborari di amana le thuto jaaka Tona ya rona e setse e boletse. Ka fao di botlhokwa, di ama matshelo a rona. Kana fa o le gaufi le molelo, mosi wa go fatlha, o palelwe ke go bona dilo tse dintle, mme le bothitho ba molelo ka nako e nngwe o ka palelwa ke go bo utlwa. Go ntse jalo le ka rona. Re itse gore batho ba dinaga tse dingwe ba re lebeletse ka leitlho le le ntshotsho, ba a re galela, ba re duma, ka ntlha ya diphetogo tse re di tlisang. Go baya lekgotla le le tlileng go eletsang Tona mo dintlheng tsa dilaeborari ke ntlha e e botlhokwa, ka gonne re tswa mo maabaneng a batho bagaabo rona ba neng ba sena t[s]hono ya go ka tsena mo dilaeboraring. Jaanong bagaetsho, ke batla gore ke ise ke ye pele ke re, molawana o, ke o mongwe wa melawana e e leng gore okare batho ba makokokganetso, ba ne ba utlweletse lefoko la Mopresidente fa a re: Let us unite in action for change.'' Ga ke solofele gore go tlile go nna le bangwe ba ba ka ganetsang molawana o. Fa e le gore go ka nna le bangwe, e tlabo e le bonkgate- ke-tlhaname, ba e le goreng ga o kake wa ba ikanya. Ka jalo, ke o mongwe wa melao e re ka rotloetsanang ra re, fa re le seboka, re tlile go kgona go fenya tau e ya phetogo. Kana ba re, ditau di senang seboka, di siiwa ke nong e tlhotsa. Re na le nong ke e ke diphetogo. Maloba e rile ke bua, fa re ne re le mo ditlhophong, ke bua le bomme kwa gae, ke batla gore ba utlwisise gore phetogo e thata, ka ba botsa gore a ba kile ba opela mo khwaereng, ba bo ba lebagana le seo go tweng ke kgabaganyo kgotsa transition. Dinnoto tsa pina tsa kgabaganyo ke tsona di laolang gore ke mang yo o tlileng go fenya dikgaisano tsa mmino. Bagaetsho, re mo kgabaganyong, mme melawana e e ntseng jaana, go ya le gore rona re e tlhokomele, re e tshware sentle. Molao o, o bitsa maikarabelo a rona jaaka maloko a Palamente gore re itsese bagaabo rona ka ona, e tle e re fa lekgotla leo le tlhomiwa, ba nne le baemedi mo molaong o. Ditlhokego le ditabatabelo tsa bona, di kgone go tswelela mo ditsebeng tsa Tona, ka a tlile go gakolola. Tona o boletse gore ka ntlha ya molawana o, batho ba tla kgona go nna le kitso ya dilo tse dintsi tseo ba ntseng ba sena tsona. Mme fa re lebeletse molawana o, o o tsamaelanang le meono ya ANC, selo sa ntlha se re se bonang ke dikgogakano tsa batho. Re bona Lefapha la Bokgabo, Setso, Saense le Thekenoloji le dirisana le Lefapha la Thuto, ka gonne di golaganngwa ke dilaeborarari. Sa bobedi, ga gona gore lekgotla le, le ka tlhomiwa go sa iwa kwa bathong gore ba newe t[s]shono ya go tlisa dikakanyo tsa bona. Jaanong re itse gore ke molao wa ANC gore dikakanyo tsa batho di tsene mo go seo re se dirang, gore re tle re kgone go nontsha dikatlholo tse re di tsayang mo Palamenteng. Molawana o, o lebeletse gape gore lekaleklanngwe ditshwanelo tsa batho. Re a itse gore re tswa kwa maabaneng, histori ya rona ya e re bolelela gore batho bagaabo rona ga ba buise. Re itse gore ka gongwe ke tlwaelo gore kitso e fetisiwe ka lefoko la molomo, mme jaanong re tlile mo dinakong tsa diphetogo, bana ba rona ba tsena dikolo. Kana fa o ka ya kwa magaeng, ga o kake wa fitlhela laeborari kgotsa bana ba ntse fa sekhutlhwaneng, ba na le dilonyana tse ba di buisang, jaaka re bona mo ditoropong. Re tshwanetse go itsese batsadi kwa gae kgotsa kwa mafelong a re a emetseng gore go na le molawana o o ntseng jaana, mme e bile go tlile go nna le lekgotla le le tlileng go thusa gore bana ba rona kwa magaeng ba kgone go itse gore go na le dikhomputara, dibuka, le tsele le tsele tse di ka dirisiwang. Ga go felele foo, re tshwanetse go tlhotlheletsa bao ba kgonang go kwala gore ba nontshe dilaeborari ka dikwalo tsa bana. Ke gatelela ntlha ya bana ka gore ke bona bokamoso ba rona, ba naga e. Fa e le rona, matsatsi a setse a ile, re dikgong tse di omeletseng. Ga ke itse gore a di santse di ka sokomololwa. Gantsi fa re bua, le fa re ntse re na le makokokganetso, ka nako e nngwe o fitlhele ba bua jaaka okare, fa re bua ka phetogo, ba batla go e bona gompieno jaana. Ba batla gore fa ba swa, ba bo ba bone gore phetogo e jang. Nnyaa bagaetsho, re a iphora. A re itseng gore bontsi ba dilo tse re di dirang gompieno, ga re a itebaganya le tsona, re baakanya bokamoso jwa ba ba tlang kwa morago ga rona. Fa re ka nna bao ba itebagantseng dilo, re tlile go palelwa, re tlile go fela pelo, ka gore re batla gore, fa re bua re re selo se fetoge, re be re ipone re le fa gare ga phetogo eo. Ga go kgonege. Re tshwanetse gore re gase molaetsa o o ntseng jalo mo bathong ba rona, ba tle ba itse gore re tshwanetse go kopana. Ke batla go dira boikuelo mo makokokganetsong gore jaaka re tlile go utlwana ka go amogela molawana o, jaaka Tona a re kopile, bagaetsho, a ke le yeng kwa bathong ba le reng le a ba emela, ba ba sa itseng go buisa, ba ba senang dilaeborari, le ke le ba itsese gore fa dikitsiso di tswa mo makwalodikgannyeng le mo diradiong gore go batlwa batho ba ba ka emelang ditšhaba tsa borona mo lekgotleng le, ba kgone go ema. Re setse re lemogile gore, go le gantsi fa re na le melawana e e ntseng jaana, batho ga ba tle go tla go emela makgotla a a ntseng jaana. Ka jalo, le fa re amogela molao o ka pelo e tshweu, re dira boikuelo, bagaetsho, a ko re yeng kwa ntle jaaka Tona a buile ka advocacy. Seo ke sengwe se e tla nnang tiro ya lekgotla le le tlileng go eletsa Tona. Le tshwanetse go tsamaya le itsese batho ka botlhokwa ba dilaeborari, le ka seo ba ka kgonang go se fitlhelela ka dikhomputara, gore le rona re kgone go tshwana le batho ba dinaga tse dingwe. A ke re golaganeng, bagaetsho, re se nne magatlapa a a phatlhaletseng, a a itebeletseng fela go ja mang, ga go je mang, ra lebala gore ga re a tla go direla dimpa tsa rona, re tlile go direla ditšhaba tse di re tlhophileng, tsa re tlisa ka fa. Mo legatong la ANC ka re molao o, o gatelela molaetsa wa Mopresidente wa rona o o reng, a re kopaneng re tle ke kgone go tlisa phetogo e e ka re tswelang mosola, e e ka tswelang naga ya rona mosola kamoso. Bagaetsho, molawana ke yoo, a re o amogeleng, re ageng setšhaba sa rona, re se rute, e tle e re le fa re sule kamoso, ba supe mabitla a rona ka boikgantsho. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana speech follows.) [Ms N M TSHEOLE: Madam Speaker, we have started the year with changes. Can you allow me to quote the hon the President when he said: Gradually, step by step, our country proceeds further away from its painful past. We, its citizens, who are very close to the coalface of change, may not easily see the steady transformation that informs all aspects of our national life. It is true. It is possible that when we draft a Bill on libraries, we take it for granted, thinking that it is just a Bill that does not affect our lives. I want to say to hon members, we are living in times of change; we are changing things that affect our lives. Libraries have links with education, as the hon the Minister has already indicated. As such, they are important and affect our lives. When one is close to a fire, smoke gets into one's eyes and then one fails to see the good things. And at times, one cannot even feel its heat. It is just like that with us. We know that people of other countries are looking at us with eagle eyes; they envy us because of the changes that we are effecting. To establish a committee that will advise the hon the Minister on aspects of the libraries is an important point, because we are from a past in which our people did not have an opportunity to visit libraries. Before I go any further I want to say that this Bill is one of those in respect of which one can say that the opposition parties were listening to the hon the President when he said:Let us unite in action for change.’’ I do not believe that there will be anyone opposing this Bill. If there is anyone, they will be people who cannot be trusted. Now, this Bill is one in respect of which we can encourage each other and say, together we stand and divided we fall. Recently, during the elections, I spoke to the women at home, wanting them to understand that change is difficult. I asked them whether they had sung in a choir and come across what is known as a transition. Transitional keys are the ones which determine who will win in the music competitions. We are in a transition, and such Bills depend on whether we take care of them, and look after them properly. This Bill seeks our responsibility as members of Parliament. We must inform our people so that when that council is established, they should have representatives in it. Their needs and demands must reach the hon the Minister, as he would advise. The hon the Minister has said that because of this Bill, the people will have access to information on many things about which they did not have information. But, when we look at this Bill which is in agreement with the policies of the ANC, the first thing that we see is the contributions of the people. We note that the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology is working together with the Department of Education, because they are connected by the libraries. Secondly, this committee cannot be established without consulting the people so as to give them an opportunity of voicing their opinions. We know that it is the policy of the ANC that the opinions of the people should be included in what we are doing, so that we should be able to enrich our resolutions that we take in Parliament. This Bill also aims at striking a balance in respect of people’s rights. We know that we come from the past. Our history tells us that our people do not read. We know that it is possibly a habit that knowledge is passed on by word of mouth, but now we are in times of change, our children attend school. If one goes to the rural areas, one will never find a library or children sitting in a corner with something to read, unlike what we see in towns. We must inform the parents at home or those in the areas that we represent that there is such a Bill, and that there will be a committee that will help our children in rural areas to know that there are computers, books, and that these can be used. It does not end there. We must influence those that are able to write to enrich our libraries with their literature. I am emphasising children because they are the future of our country. Our time has passed, we are dried wood. I do not know whether we can still be bent. Whenever we talk, even when we are with the opposition parties, at times one finds them talking as if, when we talk of change, they want to see it today. They would want that when they die; they must have seen what change is like. No, we are fooling ourselves. Let us know that most of the things that we do today are not intended for us, we are preparing a future for those coming after us. If we become those that want it for our own benefit, we will fail. We will be impatient because if we want something to change, we will want to find ourselves in the middle of that change. That is not possible. We must disseminate a message of that nature to our people, so that they should know that we should meet. I want to make an appeal to the opposition parties that, as we are here to agree to accept this Bill, as the hon the Minister has requested us to do, they should go to those they say that they represent, those that cannot read, those without libraries, and let them know that when announcements are made in newspapers and on the radio, that representatives are wanted to stand for their constituencies in this council, they must be able to stand up. We have already realised that quite often when we have such Bills, our people do not come to stand for such councils. As such, even if we accept this Bill with open hearts, we are appealing that we go outside, as the hon the Minister has said about advocacy. That would be one of the tasks of the committee that would advise the hon the Minister. Members must go and inform the people about the importance of libraries, about what can be achieved with computers, so that we are able to do the same as other countries. Let us unite, and not become cowards who are scattered, who are only concerned about who benefits, and who forget that we are not here to work for our stomachs, but for those who have elected us and put us here. On behalf of the ANC I say that this Bill emphasises the hon the President’s message which says, let us unite so as to bring change that will be beneficial to us, that can be beneficial to us tomorrow. Here is the Bill, let us accept it, build our nation, teach it, so that even if we die tomorrow, it will point to our graves with pride. [Applause.]] Mr R S NTULI: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and hon members, the object of this Bill is to establish the National Council for Library and Information Services, to advise the Minister and the Minister of Education on matters relating to library and information services. The DP accepts this Bill and hopes that the Minister and his department will secure the necessary funding to enforce this Bill, because our communities, especially black communities, are crying out for information and education, while the local authorities find themselves in the position of not being able to render these basic services because of the shortage of funds. In the brief time available to me, I would like to focus on the unfortunate and ongoing lack of delivery of basic access to library and information services for the vast majority of our people, despite the existence of a wealth of enabling legislation making provision for redressing the imbalances of the past. These pieces of legislation include, among others, the Transvaal Provincial Library and Museum Ordinance of 1982, the Local Government Transition Act of 1993 and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 1998. I would like specifically to focus on the serious lack of library facilities and resources which many local authorities are still forced to contend with in this country, particularly in the greater Pretoria constituency which I represent. Together with the overextended demands on existing library and information services on the worldwide web, the extremely high rental fees levied by Telkom SA to gain access to datalines serve to prevent libraries from rendering rapid, up-to-date and cost- effective services to the vast majority of community-based libraries. In the Pretoria/Tshwane area, the amalgamation of Pretoria, Mamelodi and Atteridgeville has, of necessity, a rise of 110% in the population needing to be serviced by local libraries, while no additional funding has been provided to date in the Pretoria budget for operating additional centres. No budget for libraries has been provided in the areas affected by amalgamation, very little new infrastructure has been provided in the townships and the Gauteng government continues to provide library materials only to previously affiliated libraries in the township areas. To aggravate matters, the restructuring of the former Pretoria City Council led to the diminished status of the Pretoria library and information services, with the result that the financial position of local government has progressively deteriorated. There is overcrowding of libraries by users in search of both information and a place to study. A delicate financial balance always has to be kept between delivering services to existing community libraries and creating new ones in underprovided areas. I would like to suggest some ways in which the current lack of provision of services by libraries could be addressed in practical ways, involving some of the innovative ventures put forward at a seminar in July 1999 by Mrs Hansen, the city librarian at the Pretoria community library and information services. These include community involvement by user- communities, NGOs and community forums, drawing up a service menu based on the existing needs, lobbying political decision-makers and other role- players, partnerships with private sector bodies, joint ventures and fundraising. Finally, I agree with Mrs Hansen that the effective use and, hence, overall survival of community libraries and information services in South Africa will depend, amongst other things, on the promulgation of legislation that states clearly that the responsibility for the provision of community libraries and information services is firmly at local government level. Equity in service provision must be achieved. National government must have a policy in place for the development and maintenance of community library services. Furthermore, information providers should be willing to share resources at affordable prices. More cost- effective ways to provide electronic service delivery should be found. Finally, I should like to close by asking the Minister whether any attempts have been made by his department to seek additional funds from international institutions such as the British Council, Unesco or the European Union. If not, I would urge him to act in this regard at the earliest opportunity. [Applause.] Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, I rise with great pleasure on behalf of the IFP to support the National Council for Library and Information Services Bill. I do so because if we think of this marvellous story written by Roald Dahl, Matilda, we have a situation in which the family is devoted to watching television, but not to reading, and the father has a fit when he sees his daughter bringing home books. We know that we in South Africa as a nation are not really a reading nation. A household survey that was conducted in Australia in 1999 indicated that only about 50% of people over the age of 18 read books regularly. This is surely a great deficiency in a period in which information is so critically important to our lives, to our economy and to everything. Therefore we need to be able to empanel a group of wise and visionary people, fellow South Africans, who would be passionately driven to make sure that South Africa is at the very forefront of this information age, also with respect to reading. If I had to conjure up a vision of what I would like to see for South Africa, then I would look to the British Library. The British Library is a marvellous institution. It has in it 16 million books, 8 million different types of stamps, 4 million maps, 2,5 million disks for sound and 250 000 manuscripts of those who wish to become writers. South Africa needs to have a proliferation of writers, especially in the indigenous languages in order that these previously marginalised languages can come to the fore and more people can communicate their ideas and, culturally, this country can make serious progress. The British Library also has a staff of 2 390 people. This is staggering, but this is the scale on which the British Library operates, and it is no wonder that the people who draw references and material from there are themselves at the cutting edge of societies in the world. We must also recognise that with the information age more and more people are resorting to digital technology and, once again, the web site of the British Library has 10 million hits per annum. That must indicate to us just how significant a source of information the British Library has been and why we should put together a panel in our country that will allow us as a country also to be able to provide our citizens, our schools and our universities with the kind of information that is needed. Not only should we be looking at the library as a source of information, but also in respect of cultural activities, and this is how the Australians are approaching the concept of libraries. It is part of a cultural activity, and they have therefore divided it into five different parts in order that all aspects of culture are adequately catered for and provided for as a result of their library services. We have, unfortunately, another very serious impediment and that is that, no matter what we legislate in this Parliament, the effect will be felt mainly in the cities. The rural areas, which harbour a very substantial portion of our population, will continue to be denied access to these most important instruments that would help to elevate them, to lift them from the poverty in which they find themselves. And therefore, once again, we would like to see people on the national council who will not only regulate matters so that they benefit people who live in the towns and the cities, but who will also take this out into remote villages and into the rural areas in order that we can all connect as South Africans to this great information age via the technology that has now become available. I am also very supportive of the idea that the Department of Education and the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology should collaborate extensively in this area, because it touches the lives of school students as much as the lives of business people and others. And if we consider, once again, the British example, there is a great deal of co-operation and partnership programmes. They use credit cards to access information of certain types and there is corporate membership. We should also think of corporate membership for people who have major industries and factories, in order that they too can bring value to this entire library system, energise it with the amount of money that they can put into it, draw the benefits for themselves and allow others to draw equal benefit of the technical type that their participation would involve. On behalf of the IFP, I wish to congratulate those who have put the Bill together. I hope that it is going to succeed marvelously, and that the Minister will be able to have the kind of a team that he deserves. [Time expired.] Mnr J SCHIPPERS: Mevrou die Speaker, sedert die historiese aantekening van die oudste biblioteek van koning Sjepseskaf in Giza (2575 vC), en die rykste en oudste van daardie tyd, naamlik die hofboekery van koning Ashurbanipal (668-627 vC) in Nineve, tot die hedendaagse ultramoderne biblioteke in die groot sentra van die wêreld, het biblioteekwese gegroei en ontwikkel tot ‘n moderne wetenskap wat vir elke nasie en land onontbeerlik is. Biblioteek- en inligtingsdienste moet die instrument wees waarmee ‘n volk sy geskiedenis en alle fasette van daardie land se bestaan kan navors met die gebruik van boeke, tydskrifte, vakliteratuur, skriftelike dokumente, akoestiese dokumente soos grammofoonplate, bandopnames en rolprente. Die wetsontwerp wat tans voor die Huis dien, is in dié sin belangrik. Dit het ten doel om ‘n raad te vestig wat twee belangrike departemente in die proses van nasiebou en ontwikkeling in die land bymekaar sal bring, naamlik die Departement van Kuns, Kultuur, Wetenskap en Tegnologie en die Departement van Onderwys. Die belangrikheid van die wetsontwerp lê opgesluit in die funksies van die raad, naamlik klousule 4 van die wetsontwerp. Klousule 4(1) spesifiseer duidelik dat die Raad die Ministers van Kuns, Kultuur, Wetenskap en Tegnologie en van Onderwys eerstens oor verskeie aangeleenthede moet inlig en tweedens moet dit ‘n koördinerende funksie vervul. Dit is belangrik dat die twee betrokke departemente se werksaamhede ten opsigte van die funksies van die raad, nie gedupliseer moet word nie. Dit sal ‘n vermorsing van tyd, energie en geld wees. Suid-Afrika het ‘n hoë ongeletterdheidsyfer en alle pogings om daarop te verbeter, moet juis deur die betrokke departemente aangevoer word. Die voorgestelde raad moet instrumenteel hierin wees. Samewerking tussen die inligtingsdienste van die Departement van Kuns, Kultuur, Wetenskap en Tegnologie en die Education Library and Information Services, Edulis, behoort ‘n kragtige faktor te wees om enersyds die sosio-ekonomiese, tegnologiese en inligtingsontwikkeling van alle gemeenskappe te stimuleer en te ondersteun en andersyds om optimale toegang tot relevante inligting koste-doeltreffend by elke landsburger te kry. Die wetsontwerp is ‘n goeie stuk wetgewing ter bevordering van ‘n goeie, belangrike oogmerk en die Nuwe NP en die DA steun die wetsontwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Mr J SCHIPPERS: Madam Speaker, from the historic recording of the oldest library of King Shepseskaf in Giza (2575 BC), and the richest and oldest of that time, namely the court library of King Ashurbanipal (668-627 BC) in Nineveh, to the present ultramodern libraries in the big centres of the world, librarianship has grown and developed into a modern science which is indispensable to every nation and country. Library and information services must be the instrument through which a nation can research its history and all facets of that country’s existence by using books, journals, scientific and technical literature, written documents, acoustic documents such as gramophone records, tape recordings and films. The Bill currently before the House is important in this regard. It aims to establish a council which will bring together two important departments in the process of nation-building and development in the country, namely the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and the Department of Education. The importance of the Bill lies in the functions of the council, namely clause 4 of the Bill. Clause 4(1) clearly specifies that the council must, firstly, inform the Ministers of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and of Education on various matters, and, secondly, it must fulfil a co- ordinating function. It is important that the activities of the two departments should not be duplicated as regards the functions of the council. This would be a waste of time, energy and money. South Africa has a high illiteracy rate and all attempts to improve this must in fact be lead by the departments concerned. The envisaged council must be instrumental in this. Co-operation between the information services of the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and the Education Library and Information Services, Edulis, should be a powerful factor, on the one hand to stimulate and support the socioeconomic, technological and information development of all communities and, on the other, to facilitate optimal access to relevant information cost- effectively for every citizen. The Bill is a good piece of legislation for the promotion of a good, important objective and the New NP and the DA support the Bill.] Miss O N MNDENDE: Madam Speaker, the importance of library and information services in the greater context of education and literacy cannot be overemphasised. The UDM, therefore, welcomes this legislation which is an attempt to address these crucial issues affecting the future of our nation. The Bill seeks to create a national council that will manage the provision of library and information services. It is hoped that the people chosen to serve on the council will cover all aspects of this diverse and complex field in order to ensure that the needs of all users and practitioners are adequately addressed. The UDM is especially concerned about the proper representation of all provincial and local library and information services, since it is at this level that the council will have to strive for development and access for the benefit of all the people of South Africa. We urge the council to create mechanisms that will enable each and every library and information service provider to communicate with it, thereby avoiding a situation in which a council sits somewhere in an air-conditioned building twice a year, far removed from the reality out there. The library and information services sector is full of dedicated and often underpaid and underresourced people who struggle daily to service the public to the best of their ability. We must empower these people and allow them to guide the council towards solutions. I repeat: Let us not create an inaccessible council that enstranges the very people for whom we need to do crucial groundwork. President Mbeki has on numerous occasions highlighted the need for South Africa to enter the information age aggressively. The amount of work this will entail in a country with such a huge literacy and education backlog is staggering. The work of the council is thus all the more important and challenging. Ndiyathemba ke ukuba bonke abantu baya kuthi bathabathe inxaxheba kulo mthetho ukwenzela ukuba abantwana basezilalini bangaziboni benomfanekiso- ngqondweni nje wale nto kuthiwa lithala leencwadi. Amathala eencwadi asezilalini mawangenziwa ngamaplanga adovudovu. Ngaloo ndlela siya kuthi sikwazi ukufumana ulwazi xa silufuna. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.) [I hope that everybody will be able to participate in this new legislation so that children in rural areas do not just have an idea of what a library is all about. Libraries in rural areas should be well constructed. In that way we will be able to access information, as we require it.] The UDM supports this Bill. [Applause.] Ms C DUDLEY: Oh Jesus Christ, mighty God, I acknowledge. You as Lord of lords, King of kings and Holy Spirit, and I welcome You here. Madam Speaker and colleagues, the Constitution states that access to information is a fundamental right of all South Africans, and the importance of libraries should not be underestimated. This Bill seeks to establish a National Council for Library and Information Services and to provide for matters connected to this. The ACDP will vote in favour of this Bill. [Interjections.] With the penetration of information technology into every sector of society, the impact it has on libraries is especially significant. The Internet has reduced the importance of conventional libraries, but libraries still have a highly effective role to play in our society. They will, however, have to market themselves as a partner of education and socioeconomic upliftment. Today’s libraries will have to invest in technology that connects people to worldwide opportunities in information and educational development programmes. I am aware of current renovations going on in our library at Parliament that aim at providing a better service for members. It is my guess that since we have access to the Internet, few MPs make use of the library. It may be useful for library management and Parliament to create an intranet service through which the library can feed MPs with relevant information, such as the latest books and journals available, topics covered, etc. Libraries are changing all over the world. Although they are still the primary resource for books, journals and newspapers, they must, in the contemporary context, be seen as institutions of empowerment and development. If we invest in libraries as empowerment agencies, the socioeconomic future of this country will accelerate to the benefit of all. Ngiyabonga [Thank you]. [Interjections.] Mr G E BALOI: Madam Speaker, library and information services provide South Africa with information by means of modern information technology, mainly to scientific, academic and business groups. However, the same does not apply to the majority of South Africans. At present these services are rendered from a point of view of race, class and urban bias. The various library information services are governed by a variety of national statutes, provincial ordinances and municipal regulations. The establishment of a national council for the library and information services sector goes back to the days of the apartheid era National Advisory Council on Libraries and Information which was in operation from 1967 to 1982, and to the days of the National Library Advisory Council which existed from 1982 to 1986. Reports of the policy development initiatives and investigations of the early 1990s are also available. Research done by these organisations highlights the need for a National Council for Library and Information Services which could co- ordinate the national strategy within the library and information services system. This would be in line with the wishes of both the South African library and information services sector and Unesco. [Interjections.] I apologise for the ringing of my cellular phone. [Laughter.] Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the PAC supports the National Council for Library and Information Services Bill and congratulates the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. We agree with the Minister that there is a great need to develop the habit of reading in this nation, particularly in African languages. It is imperative to encourage writers in African languages, so that those among our people who cannot read English may educate themselves through acquiring knowledge in their own languages. It is important that our libraries are supplied with books which are written from an afrocentric point of view, so as to decolonise the minds of our people and exorcise the demon of an inferiority complex. Knowledge is power. A nation that does not read, cannot advance. The School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London has the kind of library we should emulate. It has a lot of books from Africa. Muf T J TSHIVHASE: Mulangadzulo, miraḓo ya Phalamennde na Nnḓu i huliseaho, ṋamusi ndi ḓo rera nga Mulayotibe une wa pfi Khoro ya Lushaka ya Ḽaiburari na Tshumelo dza Mafhungo. Ndi tama roṱhe ri tshi fhululedza vhukuma uyu Mulayotibe. Zwi tshi itiswa ngauri Afurika Tshipembe ndi ḽiṅwe ḽa mashango ane a khou vha na mushumo muhulwane wa mbvelaphanḓa. Samusi ri tshi vhalelwa-vho kha mashango a demokirasi, zwo tea uri muṅwe na muṅwe a kone u wana nḓivho na tshumelo dza mafhungo o teaho. Hezwo zwi ḓo ita uri vhadzulapo vhoṱhe vha vhofholowe mihumbuloni na u ḓiṱongisa nga muvhuso washu. Zwo ralo, roṱhe ri ḓo shela mulenzhe kha u khwaṱhisa uyu Mulayotibe. Muvhuso wa kale wa tshiṱalula wo ri sia na mushumo muhulwane siani ḽa uri nnyi na nnyi a wane nḓivho yo teaho. Vhunzhi ha vhathu, zwihulwane vha re mahayani, a vho ngo swikelwa nga zwiimiswa zwi no nga ḽaiburari kana senthara dza u wana mafhungo. Ṋamusi kha ri takale ngauri uyu Mulayotibe u ḓo itisa uri zwi konadzee. Vhathu vha hashu vha ḓo vha na fhethu hune vha nga ya u wana ngeletshedzo dza u khwinisa vhutshilo havho. Vhagudiswa na vhone vha ḓo ḓiphina nga u vhala, u vhudzisa na u wana phindulo malugana na pfunzo dzavho. Ndivho dza uyu Mulayotibe ndi dzi tevhelaho: Ya u thoma, u itela uri hu vhe na tshumelo ya mafhungo a thusano kha zwa pfunzo, ikonomi, mvelaphanḓa, saintsi na tekinolodzhi. Ya vhuvhili, uri hu vhe na vhudavhidzano vhukati ha vhathu vha mahayani na dziḓoroboni. Vhathu vha ḓo kovhana mafhungo ane a ḓo fhaṱa lushaka. Ya vhuraru, ndi ya u vhetshela u vhumbiwa ha Khoro ine ya ḓo tsivhudza Minisiṱa wa Vhutsila, Mvelele, Saintsi na Thekinolodzhi, a tshi thusana na wa Pfunzo malugana na mveledziso ya ḽaiburari, tshumelo ya mafhungo na zwiṅwe. Ya vhuṋa, u vha na mbekanyamaitele dzine dza ḓo ita ndaulo ya kushumisele kwa masheleni, zwifhaṱo, tshomedzo na vhushumeli. Ya vhuṱanu, u itela uri vhakale vhe vha si sedziwe kana u itelwa, zwihulwane vha re mahayani, vha fanela u sedziwa vhukuma. Arali zwi tshi konadzea, hu thoṅwe ngavho. Ya vhurathi, u ita uri vhathu vha gudiswe u vhala na u ṅwala, ndi hone vha tshi ḓo kona u shumisa ḽaiburari na tshomedzo dzi re henefho dza u wana mafhungo. Tshihulwanesa tsha uyu Mulayotibe, ndi u tikedza mulayo u no pfi ‘Legal Deposit’ wo thomaho u shuma nga ḽa u thoma Fulwana 1998, zwo ṱangana na Mulayo wa Ḽaiburari ya Afurika Tshipembe, wa mabofu na vhavhali vha zwo ganḓiswaho, ho katelwa na vhaholefhali. Mulayo wa “Legal Deposit” u ita uri mafhungo na ḓivhazwakale ya Afurika Tshipembe i vhekanyiwe na u vhulungwa zwavhuḓi uri vhathu vha kone u zwi wana musi wa ṱhoḓea. Zwoṱhe izwo zwi tshi ganḓiswa nga eḽekiṱhironi na nga dzifilimu. Ndi ngoho uri vhumatshelo hashu, ha vhana na vhaḓuhulu vhashu hu ḓo vha ha nthesa arali miraḓo ire fhano Phalamenndeni ṋamusi ya tikedza uyu Mulayotibe. Huno, riṋe vha ANC, ro ḓiimisela u khwinisa vhutshilo ha vha Afurika Tshipembe. Zwo ralo, roṱhe kha ri farane zwanḓa ri shele mulenzhe kha mushumo uyu muhulu une wa vha wa vhuḓi. [U vhanda zwanḓa.] (Translation of Tshivenḓa speech follows.) [Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Madam Speaker, members of Parliament and this august House, today I will debate the National Council for Library and Information Services Bill. I really would like us all to applaud this Bill. This is because South Africa is one of the developing countries which has a task to fulfil. As we are also counted among the democratic states of the world, it is fitting that everyone should have knowledge and information services. That will liberate all citizens to have freedom of the mind and pride in our society. Therefore, I hope we will all participate in strengthening this Bill. The previous apartheid government left us with a huge task of making knowledge available to everyone. Most people, especially those in the rural areas, had no libraries and centres of information. Today, let us rejoice because this Bill makes it possible for their establishment. Our people will have the opportunity to go and get advice to improve their lives in these places. Students will also have places that are conducive to learning, making enquiries and getting feedback on their education. The objectives of this Bill are the following: Firstly, availability of information services to assist in education, socioeconomics, development, science and technology. Secondly, the establishment of communication between people in the rural and urban areas. People will share information that will build the nation. Thirdly, to provide for the formation of the council that will advise the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, together with the Minister of Education, on the development of libraries, information services and other issues. Fourthly, to have procedures that will enable financial control, the erection of buildings, acquiring equipment and looking after employees. Fifthly, to address the unfortunate position of those who were previously marginalised, especially people in the rural areas. If possible, they should be given preference. Sixthly, to enable people to read and write so that they can make use of libraries and information services. The most important thing in this Bill is to support the Legal Deposit Act, which was promulgated in July 1998, including The South African Library for the Blind Act and The National Library of South Africa Act. The Legal Deposit Act entails the collection of South African historical data for its archives, thus enabling access to researchers. Electronic publications and films should also be available. It is true that the future of our children, our grandchildren and all the people of South Africa will be greatly improved if members of Parliament in this Chamber support this Bill. We in the ANC are determined to improve people’s lives in South Africa. Let us all therefore join hands and participate in this challenging good work. [Applause.]] Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, the primary function of the National Council for Library and Information Services is to facilitate access to information by any institution or person that needs it for a certain purpose. The national council, as an advisory body to the the main role- players, is tasked with the duty of implementing and maintaining the norms and standards for the provisions of information services. In order to achieve equity and consistently evaluate the information services throughout the world at all levels, it is advised that the committee or working group meet at least three times a year, instead of once a year as determined by section 11(5) of the Bill. The duty of the council is to create a strong leadership that will strategically co- ordinate libraries and information services, to make the resources available to the disadvantaged communities. With the ever-increasing rate of illiteracy, it is important that libraries become more user-friendly to the general public at large. A new and improved library and information service can be achieved by constantly upgrading data through new and improved technology, and access to computers and Internet services. The MF strongly recommends that the service providers begin working from the grass-roots level during the implementation of the Bill, thus creating awareness at all levels. The MF supports the National Council for Library and Information Services Bill. [Time expired.] Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, die erkenning wat by implikasie in hierdie wetgewing aan die rol van biblioteke in die ontwikkeling van gemeenskappe gegee word, moet verwelkom word. Dit is dwarsoor die wêreld goed bekend dat waar gemeenskappe self ‘n aktiewe rol speel in hulle eie ontwikkeling, en nie passief alle steun van die sentrale owerheid verwag nie, biblioteke en inrigtings op die plaaslike vlak ‘n sleutelrol vervul. Deur die verskaffing van inligting dra hulle by tot die inspirasie, maar ook tot die daadwerklike ondersteuning van ontwikkeling in die gemeenskap. Daarby glo ek dat biblioteke en bibliotekaresses ‘n spesiale verantwoordelikheid het om by te dra tot die beskerming van intellektuele vryheid in ‘n wêreld waarin daar al hoe meer gevaartekens is van ‘n terugkeer na sensuur en onverdraagsaamheid. Die klem moet val, soos die wetgewing dit wil hê, op inligtingsgeletterdheid. In ‘n era waar die klem toenemend en tereg op voortgesette en lewenslange onderwys en opleiding val, raak dit al hoe belangriker om krities en kreatief met inligting om te gaan. Daar bestaan ‘n illusie dat die oorvloed inligting wat op die Internet beskikbaar is die oplossing vir alle probleme inhou. Ek wil betoog dat opleiding oor die beoordeling van inligtingsbronne al hoe noodsaakliker raak, anders dink ‘n mens naderhand MIV veroorsaak nie vigs nie! Saam met die positiewe wil ek egter ook ‘n beroep doen dat nie toegelaat word dat hierdie raad bloot ‘n instelling word wat mooi ondersoeke aanpak en welluidende verslae op lêer laat beland nie. Ek vertrou dat die mooi woorde van die Minister ook beslag sal kry in ‘n behoorlike en verhoogde begrotingsvoorsiening vir biblioteke op die provinsiale en veral die plaaslike vlak. Dit is daar in ons plaaslike gemeenskappe onder alle taal- en kultuurgroepe waar die uitwerking van hierdie wetsontwerp se goeie bedoelings uiteindelik getoets gaan word. As dit ook die gesindheid en die bedoeling van die Minister is, steun die AEB graag hierdie wetsontwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, the recognition of the role of libraries in the development of communities which is implied in this legislation, must be welcomed. Throughout the world it is well known that where communities themselves play an active role in their own development and do not passively expect total support from the central authority, libraries and institutions play a key role at the local level. By providing information they contribute to the inspiration, as well as the active support of development in the community. In addition, I believe that libraries and librarians have a special responsibility to contribute to the protection of intellectual freedom in a world in which there are more and more danger signs of a return to censorship and intolerance. The emphasis must be, as the legislation would have it, on information literacy. In an era in which the emphasis is being placed more and more, and rightly so, on continuous and lifelong education and training, it is becoming increasingly important to work with information in a critical and creative manner. The illusion exists that the abundance of information available on the Internet is the solution to all problems. I submit that training with regard to the evaluation of sources of information is becoming more and more essential, otherwise one eventually starts to think that Aids is not caused by HIV! Together with the positive, I also want to request that this council not be allowed to become an institution which merely undertakes fine investigations and puts fine-sounding reports on file. I trust that the fine words of the Minister will also manifest themselves in a proper and increased budget provision for libraries at the provincial and especially at the local level. It is in our local communities, amongst all linguistic and cultural groups, that the effect of the good intentions of this Bill will ultimately be tested. If this is also the view and the intention of the Minister, then the AEB will gladly support this Bill.] Mr S L DITHEBE: Madam Speaker, hon members, I have heckled so many times since I came here that mine can hardly be called a maiden speech. Mahatma Gandhi once said, Knowledge is power,'' and we all know that that knowledge is deeply imbedded in the books that are found in our libraries. The logic for the existence of libraries is to provide information for research and development at primary, secondary, tertiary and community levels. Without this service, the social, economic, political and psychological development of society would be grossly stunted. It is for this reason that we welcome the introduction in the House to this Bill, which will revolutionise the library and information services regime in our country and beyond. I saybeyond’’, because in the words of our President: A better Africa and a better world are in the genuine interest of South Africa's people. '' However, this vision will be stillborn if we do not ensure co-ordination, collaboration and integration between services provided by academic, school, special and legislature libraries to ensure mobilisation and access to a reservoir of resources provided by these institutions collectively. We further salute the announcement by the President during his state of the nation address on 9 February to this House that in order to ensure that we do not fall behind the rest of the world, as a result of the digital divide, a Presidential National Commission on Information Society and Development, as well as a Presidential International Task Force on Information Society and Development will be established. This announcement comes at a time when universities, traditional healers, leaders, and local and indigenous communities are grappling with the challenges of indigenous knowledge systems in order to spearhead the African Renaissance. Courses have also been developed in this regard and sites established in order to pursue further research. It is in pursuit of projects such as this that we will succeed in restoring confidence in Africans. We must pursue this and other projects through the information revolution in order to give meaning to the words of our President, and I quote: ...that no African child should ever again experience hunger, avoidable disease and ignorance; that no African child should ever again feel ashamed to be an African. While there is a need to argue from a librarian's viewpoint, the lines between information-related professions have become increasingly blurred. I would like to echo the views of Benjamin's unpublished recommendations to the European Council on 26 May 1994, titled: Europe and the Global Information Society: Technological progress can now enable us to process, store, retrieve and communicate information in whatever form it may take, unconstrained by distance, time and volume. This revolution adds huge new capacities to human intelligence and constitutes a resource which changes the way we work together and the way we live together. It was 45 years ago that the people of our country came together to draft the Freedom Charter, and one of the clauses contained in that document which they authored is about opening the doors of learning and culture. That clause,The doors of learning and culture shall be opened’’, says that there shall be a free exchange of ideas and contact with other countries. This mission is impossible if we do not make use of bodies such as the council that will be established in terms of the Bill that is serving before us today, in order to ensure that that dream does not become a pipe dream, that the dreams, hopes and aspirations of our people are not betrayed. Ho tloha kajeno, ha ditshebeletso tsohle tsa dilaebrari di bulelwe batho meeding yohle e sehilweng botjha ya bommasepala, ekasita le ho kgothaletsa bana ba rona ho bala maleme a bona, ho fapana le ho dula ba bala Harry Potter le tse ding. Ditshebeletso tsena di lokela hore di fumanwe ke batho bohle, ntle le hore na ba na le thuto e kae kapa ba dilemong dife. Dilaebrari ke dibaka tsa bohlokwa tseo ho tsona batho ba ka iphumanelang tlhahiso-leseding hore ba dule ba tseba hore ho etsahalang naha ka bophara, hobane re hlokometse hore ha batho ba sena tlhahiso-leseding ba a fokola mme ba sitwa hore ba ka etsa diqeto tse ka ntlafatsang maphelo a bona. Ke rata hore ke hatiseletse mantswe ana ka ho etsa mohlala wa motho ya kenang sebakeng seo e leng hore ha a kena ho sona ntle le ho bala se ngodilweng, a ka tshwana a hlahelwa ke kotsi. Hona ho bolela hore, ka mantswe a mang, ha batho ba rona ba fumantshwa monyetla wa hore ba bale ba tle ba be le bokgoni ba ho bala ba tsebe se ngodilweng, ba ka kgona hore ba etse diqeto ka maphelo a bona ntle le ho kena tsietsing kapa ho tswa kotsi. [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.) [From now on, let all library services be accessible to the public, beyond all the newly demarcated municipal boundaries, and also serve to encourage our children to read in their mother tongues, instead of reading Harry Potter and so forth. These services must be accessible to everybody, regardless of their level of education or their age. Libraries are places of great significance from which people may acquire information so that they may be knowledgeable about events that are taking place throughout the country. We have noticed that when people lack information, they are disempowered and are unable to take decisions that can improve the quality of their lives. I would like to emphasise these words by citing the example of a person who enters a prohibited area due to the fact that he or she cannot read the warning signs. He or she is likely to be injured. This means, in other words, that when our people are afforded the opportunity to learn so that they can read, they will be able to take decisions that affect their lives and avoid dangerous situations. [Applause.]] The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, colleagues, comrades and members of our Parliament, I would like to thank all of you for being so conscious of this national imperative to promote the dissemination of and access to knowledge and information for all our people. What we have agreed upon is a Bill that helps to create one of most important social and economic infrastructures of this country, the library information services system. Thank you very much for the zeal and the common vision that you have demonstrated. Let this mark a new beginning for all of us, for all the parties, that on those issues that are absolutely fundamental for progress, development and job creation in this country, there is unanimity and a common purpose. I would also like to thank our international partners who have on many occasions provided books to our schools and to our community libraries, but more than anybody else I would like to thank the Carnegie Foundation, which is providing assistance to three provinces and three metrocities. Each one of those provinces and metrocities will get about R7 million to help develop a library information service. [Applause.] Debate concluded. Bill read a second time. THE SITUATION IN ZIMBABWE (Subject for Discussion) The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, almost exactly a year ago, I went to Harare with some of my colleagues shortly after the constitutional referendum there, which President Mugabe lost. At that time he seemed to accept the decision of his voters with equanimity and dignity. I returned from Harare again this afternoon and it is difficult to describe how the situation has changed. Unfortunately, very much for the worse since then. High hope has given way to despair and optimism has been replaced by a deep and pervasive fear on the streets. What we have in that country now is a culture of impunity, leading to the shedding of any pretence of democratic legitimacy by the President of Zimbabwe as he cracks down on the three vital checks and balances on this or any other democracy - the press, the courts and the political opposition. The situation, I believe, is so extreme that it is difficult to capture in a single sentence, an anecdote or fact on how exactly it is. Some people know exactly how bad it is. But perhaps there are a few items that we should consider. The state of institutionalised lawlessness and terror is undoubtedly and regrettably directed there by the head of state and supported by his army and police. That is why the Minister of Justice, completely contrary to his own constitution, could say to a Supreme Court Judge, as he urged him to resign the other day: The President hopes you do not get hurt''. That is why also, the Zanu-PF MP Dr Hitler Hunzvi, was captured on a tape by our own SABC and Radio Sonder Grense having described the members of the judiciary in Zimbabwe asdevils who must go and I will make sure that they do go’’. That is probably why not a single person has been charged, convicted or sentenced for the murder of the 41 opposition party supporters during the election campaign and more recently in the January 2001 Bekitso West by-election campaign. In addition to, or perhaps because of the aforegoing, one faces a situation where this culture of impunity is matched by an economic meltdown on a scale that is almost unimaginable - it certainly is for us, from where we sit. There is 60% unemployment, 55% inflation, -10% growth forecast, a million jobs lost in the last 18 months, half of them on the farms, and a false interest rate kept down at 15%, even though, apparently, the real interest rate is closer to 60%. So one has a campaign of terror on the one hand matched by economic bankruptcy and meltdown on the other. But I suppose the real enquiry relevant to our proceedings and debate today is what we should be doing about it, if anything. The first question that I would like to ask the gentleman over there is: What is our policy on Zimbabwe at the moment? Apparently - and it has never really been explicitly spelt out - we have pursued a policy of quiet diplomacy or comradely persuasion. As recently as seven days ago, our Foreign Minister, Dr Dlamini-Zuma, said, and I quote: We will not go to war and we will encourage good neighbourliness. Now, that presents that there really are only two choices: either one goes to war or wages a full-scale invasion - which is clearly preposterous and out of the question - or one has good neighbourliness. There is no range of options between those two. However, actually far worse than that was the view of the Chairperson of the SADC Ministers Council, speaking on behalf of all SADC countries only last week in Midrand, when he said that there was no question of human rights abuses in Zimbabwe. Their position was that it was an internal matter, SADC had no intention of interfering in Zimbabwe’s affairs, and that there was no crisis. The late John Vorster could not have put it better. But as a matter of principle and fact, that statement is fundamentally wrong. My colleague Mr Eglin would explain precisely how Article 4 of the declaration of SADC in Windhoek in 1992 commits member states of SADC to uphold principles of human rights, democracy and the rule of law. It also provides for sanctions to be imposed against member states who violate those principles. But I think the far more fundamental point is the question of rights violations which gives rise to a statement like that. I was given a copy of a document last night prepared by an independent and international Danish Research Council for Torture Victims, which chronicled not the excesses which our own MPs presumably picked up during the election campaign last June, but the most recent batch only last month in the Bekitso West by-election. I will just read three paragraphs to hon members: Representatives of an international development and human rights organisation examined nine persons who had participated in lawful campaigning during a by-election in Bikita in January 2001. All nine persons reported that they had been beaten, some that they had been ill-treated in other ways by the Zanu-PF, war veterans and/or the police. In all nine cases there was agreement between the history of ill- treatment, the ensuing symptoms and the result of the clinical examination, ie all nine testimonies were, on medical grounds, found to be valid. Six of the interviewed men reported that they identified MP Dr Hunzvi among the aggressors. The fact that many persons who support a legal election campaign on those grounds were arrested and beaten in the same manner by three groups - the police, Zanu-PF and the war veterans - must be seen as an indication of a pattern of organised violence involving the security forces, the political party in power and its supporters. The fact that an MP participated systematically and overtly further stresses the political responsibility and indicates an unfortunate confusion and abuse of legislative and executive power. The findings fit the description of the present human rights crisis in Zimbabwe given by all other organisations. The larger question is: Why should South Africa still act and are any of our actions effective? Apparently, quiet diplomacy has failed - I think that is the implicit acknowledgement President Mbeki made only on Monday. The question is: Do we need to try something new? What I understand, and which was explained by Minister Erwin in this Parliament, is that what we have to do is provide a policy, framework or assistance to ensure that things in Zimbabwe do not fall apart. However, the truth - and I obviously agree with that - is that the situation in Zimbabwe is so far gone and appears to be deteriorating, and actually shows no sign of improvement. It was put to me last night by people who are very responsible, decent and democratic that there is a dirty war in Zimbabwe. [Interjections.] Well, members of the ANC met some of them early yesterday. There is an unfolding horror story in Zimbabwe, because when one realises that violence wins and goes unpunished, and one needs to stay in power, what one needs to do is unleash further instalments of the same violence. And if our desire, as is now accepted, is to actually save the situation from deteriorating further, we are simply going to take those facts and ask how it is going to be in the next eighteen months leading up to the presidential election. It has been suggested - and I see that the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs is going to speak in this debate - that actually the real issue in Zimbabwe is not about these silly things, such as human rights, democracy and elections, but all about land and redressing colonialism. The characterisation of the meltdown in Zimbabwe as being about land and land hunger is, with respect, simply not true. Every party that I have spoken to in Harare and here, including the CFU, acknowledges and is willing to implement land reform. But the reality, it seems, is reflected in the words of the Archbishop of Bulawayo, Pius Ncube, who said, and I quote: The land reform exercise is a cloak for a campaign against the opposition. There are much more blunt descriptions of that. The Economist calls Mr Mugabe “Africa’s own Mussolini”. This morning the Sowetan demanded from Mr Mugabe that he honour his promises and urged our President to use the economic and political leverage at his disposal to see that it happens. But what has happened is that our President has met the Zimbabwean President at least four times - by my calculation it might be more - since that ill- fated summit in Victoria Falls on Easter Friday last April. It appears, although we have never been explicitly told, because quiet diplomacy operates behind cupped hands and closed doors, that promise after promise and commitment after commitment by Mr Mugabe have been honoured only in their breach. Indeed, the last meeting between the two presidents happened in December in Harare and was precisely about the issue of land, and a specific package was put on the table by the UNDP which required three conditions to be met. One, that the process of land reform and distribution be transparent; two, that it be done on a basis that it will restore the rule of law; and three, that the principles of equity be applied, in other words, that it does not favour one group over another. None of those conditions has ever been responded to. So, if the issue is, in fact, about land and there is a land reform programme on the table, as well as donor funds available, the onus is on the Zimbabwean government. However, to go back to what was said about our options: There is an entire menu of diplomatic and political measures, options with which, I believe, we should confront the Zimbabwean government in the event of their noncompliance with their own commitment to human rights and their own regional agreements to the rule of law and the restoration and acknowledgement of democracy. Currently, the UN provides for the freezing of foreign assets and funds owned by individuals and Ministers; one can have restrictions of travel by government Ministers; one can have an arms embargo, such as that which Britain has introduced; and one can have a curtailment of diplomatic personnel abroad. There is a whole menu of options that are available to us and our Government, instead of just simply quietly going along in order to get along. [Interjections.] However, I would say, fundamentally, something far more important is that we ourselves, as MPs from all parties, actually go to Zimbabwe, see for ourselves, make a determination, join the Commonwealth fact- finding group and actually see what the reality on the ground is now, not what it was last June. We should see if the situation will get worse, because I regret to say it will, and at all times act with honour, act on principle. We should not pretend that evil or wrongdoing can be appeased or that it can be ignored, because it cannot. [Applause.] The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, in our statement of 8 January the ANC said, and I quote: Slavery, colonialism and neocolonialism have ravaged the African economy. The provision of an adequate standard of living for the millions of our people has been very weak. The situation has to be corrected by rebuilding Africa’s economies to ensure that they are able to generate the necessary volumes of wealth, work for the people and the capacities that will ensure that we take our rightful place within the global economy. This ANC-policy statement as well as what the President said in this House about us uniting for change in the fight against poverty, are what must guide us in this debate today. Our position on the challenges faced by the people of Zimbabwe must follow this approach. We cannot do anything that is going to defeat this perspective and lead to the polarisation of the people of our region. Instead, we should be doing everything to build unity amongst the people of Zimbabwe … [Interjections] … so that they can address the problem they face together, irrespective of political affiliation. The ties that bind us with Zimbabwe are many, but we have much common history. Our paths are very different. We must look at the distinctions as well as the parallels in order to work for solutions that will benefit our countries and our region. Zimbabwe is facing great challenges. Perhaps the root of the problem is that, after an initial period of growth after independence, structural adjustment requirements have led to negative growth and, most critically, it is seeking a solution to the question of land reform and redistribution. Today too much remains in the hands of too few. The economic decline has compounded the frustrations of the war veterans, the youth and the landless peasants. Some people have taken the law into their own hands. Contrast this with the situation in South Africa. Our post-democracy period is characterised by fiscal responsibility, growth and transformation, though we still face many challenges. With a fundamentally sound economy we are now moving into an economic environment with emphasis on the microeconomy to stimulate growth and development. Our strength is that we arrived at freedom after a long struggle through negotiation and agreement.

Sadly, the problems of Zimbabwe have been used to stir up insecurity in this country. Questions of press freedom, of the relationship between government and the judiciary and the breakdown of the rule of law have been dangled in front of the people of this country as though these were under threat here, in the new South Africa. The ANC does not waver on these issues. The ANC has built the freedom of expression, the freedom of opinion and belief into our Constitution. Yet, the ANC will continue to debate issues and say so when we disagree with the media. The independence of the judiciary is an important pillar of any healthy democratic system. The ANC will fight to keep it so, but will criticise judgments when we think it necessary to do so, and transform the judiciary in line with our constitutional values. The ANC will fight to maintain the rule of law, but will continue to transform the legal framework of our country in accordance with our beliefs in fairness, justice and equity. The values of the ANC do not change for political expedience. Today, in the old Assembly, the Prime Minister of the Netherlands said, and I quote: South Africa is an important force of stability and economic development in the sub-continent. It is clear that the international community applauds our Government’s policies in relation to our continent, unlike some of the doom and gloom parties in this House. We must apply the same standards and values throughout the world. As we raise concerns about Zimbabwe, we must also raise human rights abuses all over the world, including in Israel. [Applause.] We must speak out against the abuse of power we see in the bombing of Iraq. History is littered with the devastation caused by foreign powers interfering in the internal affairs of foreign states. Vietnam is only one example. We must not be politically expedient. We must be politically consistent and condemn human rights abuses wherever and whenever they take place. [Applause.] The issue of land must be resolved within the broad context of development, democracy and human rights, as envisaged in the Millennium Africa Renaissance Programme, MARP. Key to the solution of the problems faced by Zimbabwe is the speedy resolution of the land question. It is the responsibility of South Africa and the entire international community to commit themselves to solving this land problem and ensuring a fair distribution of land to the rural masses. Calls for sanctions, Mr Tony Leon, and for cutting off aid, is irresponsible. Such action will only result in more hungry stomachs streaming across our borders. In this House, on 20 September 2000, our President said, referring to the situation in Zimbabwe, and I quote: We can shout as much as we want, but this will not address this issue. We are not governors or the government of Zimbabwe … that this is handled in a manner that respects the law, that respects the rights of Zimbabweans and that produces the stability and development that is required. Zimbabwe is a democracy with a democratically elected government. We cannot only believe in the ballot box when it suits us. Let us leave the internal politics of our neighbours to the people of those countries, but always insist on and reaffirm our commitment to justice, freedom of expression and a rule of law. The ANC has historic links with Zanu-PF. We fought the same liberation struggle against colonialism and racism, but we speak to all parties in Zimbabwe, including the opposition parties like the MDC. In the last elections the opposition made a very strong showing. These oppositions in Zimbabwe must use its support responsibly and work to bring about growth, stability, democracy and peace. Yesterday, I met with the leadership of the MDC, Mr Morgan Tsvangirai and Gibson Sibanda, the leader of the opposition in the Zimbabwean parliament. Mr Tsvangirai told the media after our meeting that that meeting with the ANC had been one of the most important he had held. [Applause.] We had a frank discussion about the situation in Zimbabwe and we agreed that a lasting solution to the challenges and problems faced by the people of Zimbabwe had to come from the people of Zimbabwe themselves. But this was not the first meeting, I must say. The MDC has met the ANC before. Our secretary-general, Comrade Kgalema Mothlanthe, led an ANC delegation to Zimbabwe last year that met with both the Zanu-PF and the MDC. We are meeting all these groups in order to contribute positively towards ensuring that democracy and economic stability thrive in Zimbabwe. Our President has said that he will meet President Robert Mugabe and engage him on the challenges faced by his country. This is a bold political statement by our own head of state. Our Government will not hesitate to engage, but will not attempt to impose its will through irresponsible actions. Instead of making cheap politics out of the problems of our neighbours, whilst following the core values of the ANC and our Constitution, let us all devote our energy to building unity in action for change. [Applause.] Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, hon members, just a few years after independence an African leader was asked the question: Why are you mismanaging your country?'' The African leader answered:Yes, at least we are mismanaging it ourselves.’’ [Laughter.] This can only be the response of a man with a strong sense of past injustice, a man who is determined to guard and protect, even to the point of self- destruction, the hard-won territorial integrity with a back-off attitude. This is what may be happening in Zimbabwe. On the other hand, there are those who would like to approach the Zimbabwe question with a defeatist attitude of: Oh, but what good can come from Africa? For these people the debate about the Zimbabwe situation is not necessarily prompted by any good for that country, but by the fear that the same things that are happening in Zimbabwe could happen in South Africa. Those approaches to the Zimbabwe question, I am afraid, are wrong. The main problem in Zimbabwe is the occupation of privately-owned farms, where these occupations have ostensibly been assisted by the government of Zimbabwe. These occupations can be explained both historically and politically. At independence the government of Zimbabwe inherited a racially-skewed agricultural and land structure. The large-scale commercial farming sector, made up of about 6 000 white farmers, owned about 45% of agricultural land. The small-scale commercial farming sector, comprising 8 500 black farmers, held only 5% of the agricultural land, mostly in the drier agro-ecological areas. These land imbalances reflect a colonial legacy of racial and class monopoly, which in turn required, and still requires, some corrective policies so as to bring about an equitable distribution of land. But, apparently there has been some frustration on the part of the Zimbabwean government with the land reform process. This frustration can be traced back partly to the Lancaster House agreements at independence. The donor funds for land resettlements which were promised to Zimbabwe by the major donor countries, including Britain, never materialised or they came too late, too little. Another source of President Mugabe’s frustration has been the political developments there, which saw the formation and growth of the opposition that coincidentally was and still is supported by commercial farmers, amongst others. The second main problem is that the government no longer seems to respect the rule of law, and court judgments have been ignored and members of the judiciary have been threatened, so much so that higher ranking judges have resigned. There are other problems, such as the suppression of the private press, and the political opposition. The actions of the Zimbabwean government have no doubt affected the economy of that country. The production of tobacco has been adversely affected due to land occupations. Foreign donor aid has all but dried up. Assistance by foreign governments and international bodies such as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank has also been cut substantially. However, the gist of the debate is about the best approach to what is happening in Zimbabwe. If the situation in Zimbabwe is as volatile as it is purported to be, and its president has lost all political sanity, as he is being portrayed to have, it surely would not be politically prudent for the South African Government to be a red rag to a bull in dealing with President Mugabe. I do not believe that shouting: Down with President Mugabe'' would have helped anything at all. Ngesizulu sivamise ukuthi:Akusizi lutho ukuthela inkomo ngezibonkolo ngoba iyoba nolaka kakhulu, mhlawumbe ihlabe kakhulu ize ilimaze nawe uqobo lwakho.’’ [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.) Usually in Zulu we say: It does not help at all to pour stinging black ants over a bull because it becomes more aggressive, so much so that it might even gore its master.'' [Interjections.] I would, of course, understand if this shouting of:Down with President Mugabe,’’ was done by the Zimbabweans themselves. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Mr M C J VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairperson, on 23 May 2000, the ANC, in the name of the hon member Dr Pallo Jordan, proposed a brave motion here in Parliament. Dr Jordan proposed that this House condemn the brutality, thuggery and loss of human life in Zimbabwe. Unfortunately that proposal was withdrawn, under pressure, shortly thereafter. Since then, we have seen the price that the people of Zimbabwe have had to pay for President Mbeki’s and the South African Government’s policy of silent diplomacy. There are reported to have been at least 5 000 death and assault threats, 635 political abductions, 2 700 political assaults, 45 political murders, and much more. Foreign direct investment in South Africa plummeted by 43%. We have seen one defence after the other being offered by this President and members of his Cabinet for what is, clearly, an indefensible policy. The motivation for silent diplomacy was best summarised by an ANC MEC who said in a debate last month: ZANU-PF are our traditional friends and we will never forsake them. This was followed by loud applause from the ANC benches. The ANC MEC went on to say: We will never forsake our traditional friends with whom we fought side by side … In other words, the ANC will support their old political friends, regardless of the human rights abuses, regardless of the damage to our region, and regardless of the damage to our own country, our own economy and our own people. The time has come for us to put the interests of our country and all our people first. The question that must be asked is the following: Is the South African Government’s policy a policy of silent diplomacy, or that of quiet approval? The main dimension of the Zimbabwean crisis is not a black and white issue, as some in the ANC would like us to believe. Many black leaders and commentators are highly critical of the Zimbabwean situation and our Government’s handling of it. During the height of the Zimbabwean crisis, Mr Mandela said: The public must bring these tyrants down themselves.'' The editor of the Zimbabwe Independent and the Standard, Mr Trevor Ncube, said in a recent interview that the South African President… is being hoodwinked by his Zimbabwean counterpart and his ruling ZANU-PF party.’’ The ANC must know that they are on the wrong side of history with regard to the Zimbabwean issue. [Interjections.] Much of what the ANC professes to stand for and what they fought for has been undermined by their Zimbabwean policy thus far. [Interjections.] However, a small crack appeared over the weekend in the ANC’s stubborn attitude up to now. After meeting with our International Investment Council over the weekend, President Mbeki is quoted in news reports as having said, with regard to the Zimbabwe issue: Apart from anything else, it impacts negatively on this country. An independent researcher of the S A Institute of International Affairs, Mr Moeletsi Mbeki - who happens to be the President’s brother - told the SABC’s Newsmaker programme on Sunday that Zimbabwe is a burden to South Africa. He went on to say: South Africa should take a tough stance on Zimbabwe by making sure that it supports the opposition parties. All the neighbouring countries, including South Africa, should force Zimbabwe to follow democratic processes. [Interjections.] The time for the ANC to show moral courage and to reverse their policy is now. It is not a shame for any government to change its policy. This Government has over the last few months reversed its policies on other issues. Instead of appearing weak and being criticised, they received recognition for this. The latest edition of the influential The Economist said that most of the components of an African version of fascism are now in place in Zimbabwe. The only option for the ANC is to get on the right side of history and reverse its policy. It should do that now. In conclusion, the impression is that silent diplomacy was and is indeed quiet approval. Public pressure, now, is what will restore this President and Government’s credibility. [Applause.] Mr B H HOLOMISA: Chairperson, Deputy President and hon members, the issue of Zimbabwe places us between two conflicting concepts of modern international politics. On the one hand, there is the concept of sovereignty and on the other there is the concept of regional interests such as co-operation and stability. On a humanitarian level, the suffering of the Zimbabwean people and the massive exodus of citizens from that country to neighbouring countries is a serious matter that places a heavy burden on neighbouring countries. It is this general suffering of ordinary citizens, black and white alike, that is of great concern rather than the special interests of a small class that must command our response. If, as we all seem to agree, regional interests outweigh the concept of sovereignty, we must bear in mind a number of factors. Firstly, since it is an issue of regional concern the region as a whole, and not just South Africa on its own, must seek a solution for Zimbabwe precisely because of the role it plays in SADC. It is time for SADC to show the resolve and moral courage to deal with the crisis that threatens to topple one of its key members and to destabilise the whole region. Secondly, we cannot ignore a country’s sovereignty completely even under the banner of SADC, as the South African Government did in its overzealous invasion of Lesotho. Zimbabwe is threatening the region’s stability and economy. The region, through SADC, must now act concertedly to address the problems. Our actions, whether in the interest of sovereignty or regional stability, must always pass the simple humanitarian test. President Mbeki is selling his Millennium African Recovery Programme to the world on the basic tenet that the abuse of power will no longer be tolerated in Africa. We applaud such a principle. Now we urge the President to practise it and demonstrate that Africa can deal with its own problems even-handedly and decisively. A proper starting place is one’s own backyard. The Government must address the problem of no-go areas in our society. Such a step will earn us respect and credibility when we raise our concerns about human rights, corruption, and law and order in other countries. [Applause.] Rev K R J MESHOE: Mr Chairman, remarks by President Robert Mugabe at the weekend that he will not allow the MDC to come to power and a warning by Vice President Robert Msiga of the second revolution if the MDC wins the elections, must be strongly condemned by all, particularly Africans. The days of life-long presidents are over and all African presidents must, in no uncertain terms, be told that. Dictators have destroyed Africa’s peace, economy and infrastructure. In this age of democracy, knowledge and information, citizens must have the right to choose their leaders, protected and promoted by all democratic countries. Bullies, oppressors, tyrants and failures must be democratically removed at the ballot box and they must be forced to accept the results of free and fair elections. Zimbabwe’s judiciary must be allowed to perform their duties without pressure and harassment by the government. It is a disgrace for a Minister in government to say government cannot guarantee the safety of the judiciary after ruling party militants had threatened violence against them. Where is the rule of law? It is the responsibility of government to ensure the safety of all it citizens, including members of the judiciary, minority parties and the media. Zimbabwean security forces must be told to stop their crackdown on the political opponents of the government. They must allow peaceful demonstration by community members who are protesting against victimisation, intimidation and the recent bombing of the independent Daily News printing press. To say that SADC might intervene in Zimbabwe if the situation could become violent, as stated by the Chairman of the SADC Council of Ministers, baffles me, because the situation in Zimbabwe is already violent and innocent people have lost their lives as a result. Besides that, prevention is better than cure. We call on our President to prioritise his meeting with President Mugabe in order to try and bring Mr Mugabe to his senses. He must be told to stop harassing his own people and asked to restore the rule of law in his country. Ms S C VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson and hon members, I would like to make two points in my contribution to this debate. The first one is that Zimbabwe is a sovereign state. Its parliament and its president have been elected by the Zimbabwean people, but we are joined as neighbours and fellow Africans, and the resolution to Zimbabwe’s problems is integral to our own future as a successful nation on this continent. Secondly, and related to this, I would like to address the issue of negative perceptions that harm the southern African region as a result of the problems in Zimbabwe. The multiparty South African observer mission that travelled to Zimbabwe for that country’s parliamentary election in June last year produced a consensus report which recorded its findings and concluded that the will of the Zimbabwean people had been fairly expressed in the elections. Observing the election was not an easy assignment, because there existed a deep tension amongst the Zimbabwean people. It was a tension that had been growing over the previous years and that was due, partly, to a lack of progress in land reform. It was exacerbated by a steady decline in socioeconomic conditions in the country. As observers our task was not to engage in party-political conflicts, but rather to observe the campaigns and processes that led to a massively peaceful election period. The role the observer mission played during that time was, I believe, a constructive one. We were often stopped in the streets during our many interactions by ordinary Zimbabweans who thanked us for our presence there as observers. People thanked us because they said our presence had had a positive influence on what was a violent and conflict-ridden pre-election period, and had resulted in a calm and peaceful election period. Also during our meetings with various groups from government and civil society, we met with the commercial farmers’ union of Zimbabwe. They indicated to us how much they supported South Africa’s role in dealing with the problem. [Interjections.] The positive and constructive influence that ours and other observer missions had on the election is important and should give us an indication of how we should proceed as close neighbours to a troubled Zimbabwe. So, what is and what should be South Africa’s role in Zimbabwe this time? The point that the ANC has been making in and outside Government on a wide range of fronts is to realise a sustainable solution to the problems of Africa. We need to work together. The ANC cares about what happens in Zimbabwe, unlike the hon Van Schalkwyk’s party that, by their own admission, is not really interested in Zimbabwe, but has some misguided fear about South Africa. The President’s Millennium African Recovery Programme, the work of former President Mandela in Rwanda and Burundi and the role that South Africa plays in SADC and on the domestic front, building unity amongst our people and common purpose in resolving our problems, are all initiatives geared towards the long-term resolution of conflicts on the continent, its development and the attainment of peace and prosperity for all its people. Zimbabwe and South Africa are linked by common borders and by historic links between people. There are many ancient links and common strands between our two countries: The origins of our languages, the familial ties between peoples, the bonds of solidarity in our fight against apartheid. These links impose upon us responsibilities in facilitating a solution to its problems. The President has said repeatedly in reply to questions in this House that these problems have to be addressed in the context of the Zimbabwean constitution and the law. The result that is sought is sustainable stability and development of Zimbabwe and for the region. We can only do this through our engagement with the Zimbabwean people and the government through our own diplomatic efforts and through our joint efforts with SADC and the international community. The second point is the negative perceptions in respect of the Southern African region of international investors. There is a key principle that guides our responsibility in this regard, while opposition parties were baying for South Africa to stand up against the Zimbabwean government, although they provide no plan or programme as to how to do this. Greta Steyn wrote in Business Day: It is difficult to see how the alienation of Zimbabwe can work in South Africa’s favour to draw in investment. Who wants to invest in a strong country with no markets beyond its borders - an island in a war-ravaged and poverty-stricken continent? Only the speculators looking to flit in and out of the country bringing illusionary benefits. There lies one of the strongest arguments for our country to continue to play a constructive role in facilitating a resolution to Zimbabwe’s problems and indeed the resolution of other conflicts on the African continent. Senior businesspeople in South Africa have been quoted as being quietly supportive of Government too in its policy towards Zimbabwe. One of them was quoted as saying: What could our President do? He could remain engaged with Zimbabwe so that there were South African experts talking to their counterparts in Zimbabwe, trying to sort this out from inside, or he could send in the tanks to blockade our borders with Zimbabwe. There is only one sensible response to this question. While the rest of the world wrings its hands, we continue to work on a solution. The further decline in socioeconomic conditions will hurt ordinary Zimbabweans most and will only spell hardship for South Africa and other Southern African countries. We have got one option, namely to remain engaged, to defend the principles set out in our Constitution and the freedoms of our Bill of Rights, to maintain our commitment to the rule of law, to remain committed to our SADC partners, and above all, to work tirelessly towards the achievement of a sustainable solution towards stability and prosperity in our region. Our President and our Government are doing just that. [Applause.] Genl C L VILJOEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, al kyk ‘n mens ook na Zimbabwe vanuit enige hoek, oor die huidige situasie is daar niks goeds te sê nie. Eerstens, gesien vanuit die hoek van Afrika - ons kontinent, daardie kontinent wat smag na groei en stabiliteit - moet Zimbabwe se minagting van die regbank, sy skaamtelose intimidasie van die opposisie, die skending van menseregte, en die minagting van die rol van die media as ‘n skande vir Afrika beskryf word. Tweedens, vir Zimbabwe se deelname en aanhitsing in die DRK-gevegte, die skep en die aanhitsing van ‘n situasie van onstabiliteit in daardie gebied, met die gepaardgaande sinlose lewensverlies, is daar net een woord en dit is dat die land ‘n gevaar is vir Afrika. Derdens, Zimbabwe stroop Afrika van enige beleggersvertroue en Zimbabwe stroop Afrika van die hoop waarop ons almal gehoop het. Daarvoor is daar net een woord, en dit is die verarming van Afrika. Vanuit die oogpunt van Suid-Afrika, is Zimbabwe ‘n klap in die gesig van President Mbeki, wat op ‘n eg Afrika-diplomatieke wyse probeer het om vir lank - miskien te lank - ‘n situasie van stille diplomasie toe te pas. Zimbabwe is ‘n bedreiging vir ons en die onstabiele situasie binne daardie land sal oorwaai na ons land toe. Zimbabwe het ‘n groot negatiewe ekonomiese impak op Suid-Afrika. Dit is sleg vir sakebedrywighede tussen die twee lande. Dit is ook sleg vir die konsolidasie van die demokrasie van die streek. Vanuit die oogpunt van Zimbabwe self is daar die ekonomiese ineenstorting. Ek verwys hier na ‘n inflasiekoers van 80%, die brandstofsituasie, toerisme, asook die knak van ‘n uiters belangrike bedryf soos byvoorbeeld kommersiële landbou, aangesien daardie mense die land uitstroom. Vanuit die oogpunt van albei lande, is daar net ellende. Ons President moet hard en reguit praat. Hy moet leer uit die Zimbabwiese situasie en Suid-Afrika red van ‘n Zimbabwe-situasie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Gen C L VILJOEN: Mr Chairman, from whichever angle one looks at Zimbabwe, nothing good can be said about the present situation. Firstly, viewed from the African angle - our continent, that continent that yearns for growth and stability - Zimbabwe’s contempt for the judiciary, its shameless intimidation of the opposition, its violation of human rights and its contempt for the role of the media, must be described as a disgrace for Africa. Secondly, Zimbabwe’s participation in and incitement of fighting in the DRC, the creation and incitement of a situation of instability in that area, with the concomitant senseless loss of lives, can only be described in one way, and that is that the country poses a threat to Africa. Thirdly, Zimbabwe strips Africa of any investor confidence and Zimbabwe strips Africa of the hope we all pinned our hopes on. There is only one description for that and that is the impoverishment of Africa. Seen from South Africa’s point of view Zimbabwe is a slap in the face of President Mbeki, who, for a long time - perhaps too long - tried to practise the typically African kind of diplomacy, namely quiet diplomacy. Zimbabwe is a threat to us and the unstable situation in that country will spill over into our country. Zimbabwe has a big negative economic impact on South Africa. It is bad for business activities between the two countries. It is also bad for the consolidation of the democracy of the region. From the point of view of Zimbabwe itself there is the economic collapse. I am referring here to an 80% inflation rate, the fuel situation, tourism, as well as breaking the back of an extremely important industry like commercial farming, for example, since those people are leaving the country in droves. From the point of view of both countries there is only misery. Our President should speak loudly and candidly. He should learn from the Zimbabwean situation and save South Africa from a Zimbabwe-type situation.] Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, Deputy President, it is indeed a welcome and a long overdue move by the South African President Thabo Mbeki to announce that the Zimbabwean economic and political situation warrants urgent attention, hence his proposal to meet with his counterpart, President Mugabe. Whilst we acknowledge that Zimbabwe is a sovereign state, worthy and able to administer its own affairs, we are concerned about the silence of some influential African countries and international organisations in advising the Zimbabwean government appropriately in the search for a long-lasting solution to its problems. The South African Government has been rightfully accused by the international community and both the people of Zimbabwe and South Africa of keeping quiet or at least sending often-confusing signals as a result of the manner in which this country has handled the political situation in Zimbabwe. As Africans it is in our nature, when our neighbour’s house is on fire, immediately to rush to his rescue and extinguish the fire, even though we have not been asked to help. But as an African I am morally bound to act or intervene in the best interests of my neighbour. This is what characterises the nature of the African. There are already sanctions against Zimbabwe by leading international financial institutions, and this action is clearly harming the poorest of the poor, not the ruling elite. The country is currently experiencing a chronic shortage of foreign currency to meet its obligations, such as payments of long-overdue energy accounts, hence the shortage of petrol and other basic necessities. It is common cause that the government of Zimbabwe has notably by and large adopted a confrontational route in dealing with any dissenting voice. I am particularly referring to the manner in which the opposition parties, judges, structures and civil society are being treated. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, Zimbabwe is not the 10th province of South Africa. [Interjections.] It is an independent neighbouring country with which we have deep historic ties. Like Swaziland, Namibia, Botswana, Lesotho and Mozambique, it should enjoy its territorial integrity and full autonomy and be treated with the appropriate respect. [Interjections.] We do not have to agree with everything that happens in Zimbabwe, as, in fact, we do not agree with everything that happens in Lesotho, Nigeria, Kenya, Bosnia, Israel, Ireland or even the USA and the UK. [Interjections.] These countries also do not have to agree with everything we say or do. We can express our views, as happens in every democratic society. But to use prime time of this Parliament to discuss events in Zimbabwe smacks of impatience bordering on arrogance. [Interjections.] I do not know how many times the name Zimbabwe'' is uttered in this House. None of our own provinces enjoy that type of attention. The basic problem in Zimbabwe is historic, unjust and inequitable land distribution. Many colonial powers left a legacy of dispossession of the indigenous people. The British Empire, with their Afrikaner-Dutch partners in government, does not have a good track record. Kenya, Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe are glaring examples. In the case of Kenya the Mau Mau revolution had to be resorted to, although the problem still exists today. Although Zimbabwe gained its independence in 1980, 6 000 white farmers own 15,5 million hectares, about 45%, of good prime land, and 12 million Africans, 75% of the population, were allocated 17,5 million hectares in mostly infertile and arid areas. This is an explosive situation which the Lancaster conference failed to resolve. The Zimbabwean situation has ingredients of a racial war ... The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your time has expired. Dr M S MOGOBA: ... which we should handle with extreme care. [Interjections.] Hatred is no basis for reform. [Interjections.] If there is fear, mistrust or hatred there cannot be reform or peace. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the situation in Zimbabwe is a political time bomb which has ignited fear amongst minorities in South Africa, especially agricultural landowners, who were privileged during the apartheid regime. However, the President assured the country that Zimbabwe-style land occupation will not happen here. Property rights are protected by the Constitution. We are seven years into democracy and have not succeeded in redistributing at least 30% of the land to the historically disadvantaged, as promised. Almost 80% of agricultural land is still owned by farmers. Although it is unfair to make a simplistic comparison between Zimbabwe and South Africa, one cannot help but perceive that the discontent and frustration the millions of poor are feeling can be expressed in an unstoppable, massive movement for quick social change. The pressure is on our President to pursue a workable solution in Zimbabwe. While we are all investing our energy in trying to resolve the Zimbabwe crises, the Government must also appease the millions of landless people in South Africa. Therefore, land redistribution has to be urgently accelerated. To redress the situation in Zimbabwe requires of the entire Southern African community region to exert pressure on President Robert Mugabe to, firstly, condemn violence; secondly, encourage citizens to follow the rule of law; and thirdly, attain a more equitable distribution of land by encouraging white farmers, based on fair principles of land redistribution, to sell to their black comrades. More effective engagement of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change by SADC authorities is crucial if there is to be a peaceful end to the intimidatory tactics of the ruling party. President Mbeki told reporters after a weekend meeting with the International Investment Council ... The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired. Miss S RAJBALLY: ...some of the things that have been happening recently are to all of us as South Africans a matter of very serious concern.’’ [Applause.] Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, elke Oujaarsaand sing ons ‘n liedjie: Sal ons ou vriende ooit vergeet'', en dit is presies wat hier gebeur wat betref Suid-Afrika se verhouding met Zimbabwe. Maak nie saak wat Mugabe doen nie, maak nie saak hoe menseregte vertrap word nie, hy is 'n vriend, en hy sal nie vergeet word nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Eiendomsreg wat nie erken word nie, die bedreiging van die onafhanklikheid van die regbank en persvryheid, die destabilisering in die DRK, al hierdie dinge het een gemeenskaplike faktor: magswellus. Hierdie is dinge wat nodig was om steun te mobiliseer vir 'n tiran wat 'n verkiesing nie sou wen nie. Ek wil agb lede wys op die duidelike inkonsekwenthede, in vandag se debat alleen, in die ANC se hantering van hierdie saak. Daar is duidelik gesê deur die hoofsweep dat ons alle vergrype moet veroordeel, ook in Israel en ook die bomme op Irak. Die ironie is, die ANC het hom nog nooit in duidelike taal uitgespreek teen wat in Zimbabwe gebeur nie. Daar was nie 'n mosie of 'n duidelike uitspraak daaroor nie, dit terwyl dit op ons reën oor hierdie ander lande. [Tussenwerpsels.] 'n AGB LID: Wat van Dr Jordan s'n? Mnr C AUCAMP: Ja, behalwe Dr Jordan s'n, wat julle teruggetrek het. 'n Verdere bewys van die dubbele agenda was toe die hoofsweep vertel het van die vrugbare gesprek met die MDC, maar toe die leier van die opposisie verwys het na mense wat demokrasie liefhet in Zimbabwe, toe kreun die hele Huis. [Tussenwerpsels.] 'n Beleid van nie-inmenging is hoogheilig, maar in die tyd van die `struggle' is die hele wêreld opgeroep om die bestel hier te beveg. Ons vra net meer konsekwentheid. President Mbeki het die naweek erken dat Zimbabwe negatief op Suid- Afrika inwerk. Miskien is dit te min te laat. Dit wat hy op aanbeveling van sy internasionale beleggers gesê het, het omtrent al die partye in hierdie Huis 'n jaar gelede al gesê. Hoeveel skade kon nie al voorkom gewees het indien hy daarop gereageer het nie? Soos alles loop die millenniumprojek vir die Afrika Renaissance in Zimbabwe dood, want die ANC verwar diealienation’’ van Zimbabwe met dié van Mugabe. Dit is tyd om ou vriende te vergeet en na die realiteite van die dag te kyk. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairman, every New Year’s eve we sing a song: Should old acquaintance be forgot'', and this is precisely what is happening here with regard to South Africa's relationship with Zimbabwe. It does not matter what Mugabe does, it does not matter how he tramples on human rights, he is a friend, and he will not be forgotten. [Interjections.] Freehold that is not recognised, the threat to the independence of the judiciary and press freedom, the destabilising of the DRC, all these things have one factor in common: megalomania. These are things that were necessary to mobilise support for a tyrant who would not have won an election. I want to point out to hon members the obvious inconsistencies, in today's debate alone, in the ANC's handling of this matter. The Chief Whip said clearly that we should condemn all transgressions, also those in Israel and the bombs dropped on Iraq. The irony is that the ANC has never expressed itself explicitly against what is happening in Zimbabwe. There was no motion or clear statement in that regard, and that while they are raining down on us in regard to these other countries. [Interjections.] An HON MEMBER: What about Dr Jordan's? Mr C AUCAMP: Yes, except for Dr Jordan's, which you withdrew. Further proof of the double agenda was when the Chief Whip spoke about the fruitful discussion with the MDC, but when the Leader of the Opposition mentioned people who loved democracy in Zimbabwe, the whole House groaned. [Interjections.] A policy of non-interference is sacrosanct, but during the time of the struggle the whole world was called on to fight the dispensation here. We are simply asking for greater consistency.] President Mbeki admitted this weekend that Zimbabwe is affecting South Africa negatively. Perhaps it is too little too late. What he said on the recommendation of his international investors had been said by almost all the parties in this House a year ago already. How much damage could not have been avoided if he had reacted to that? Like everything, the millennium project for the African Renaissance is grinding to a halt in Zimbabwe, because the ANC is confusing the alienation of Zimbabwe with that of Mugabe. It is time to forget old friends and to look at the realities of the day.] Dr Z P JORDAN: Mr Chairperson, Comrade Deputy President, hon members, comrades and colleagues, during a debate last year in this House, in answer to a question posed by the hon Barbara Hogan, the President said: The reason that this question is being raised is because there is a fear and it might very well be understandable and explainable. Here one has a black government across the Limpopo which is perceived to be doing particular things regarding this land matter. What guarantee do we have that the black government this side of the Limpopo will not do the same thing? That is what is driving it. [Interjections.] Hon members would do well to return to that particular exchange, because I think it is quite enlightening about what happened in this House and what the President has said on the issue of Zimbabwe. If, indeed, what is driving the opposition's robust questioning about the Government's approach to Zimbabwe are fears about South Africa itself, I think it is proper that we be upfront about that and say so. Yes, there is validity in raising prickly issues by employing allegories, but in this particular instance the allegory that is being used has not only muddied the waters, but it has also excited rather than allayed anxieties. The ANC and the ANC-led Government have repeatedly said that ours is a constitution-driven programme of transformation. Political opponents of the Government have, quite legitimately, invoked the Constitution to test the legality of the Government's actions and to compel definitive rulings on issues of rights. Addressing the legacy of colonialism and racism in this country is a constitutionally mandated obligation and we know that all the parties of this Parliament uphold and implement our Constitution. [Interjections.] It is quite appropriate that as parties we disagree amongst ourselves about the best means of carrying out that constitutional obligation, but I am absolutely certain there is no party here that will try to evade that constitutional mandate. The central issue in Zimbabwe is precisely how to address the legacy of colonialism in that country. Mr Morgan Tsvangirai assured us in talks yesterday that his movement was as committed to that project as anyone else. Transformation, whether in South Africa or in Zimbabwe, is not an easy process. Let us accept that it will entail discomfort for some. Let us accept also that it might entail unanticipated changes, that it might well entail loss and pain. [Interjections.] However, the virtue of a constitution-driven process is that it promotes change through the law and within the law and with the full backing of the law. Subversion of the rule of law cannot be helpful; it merely promotes disorder and heightens tension. On that score, no party in this Parliament has been silent, and, just for the record, let me remind hon members that it was the ANC that first placed the issue of what was happening in Zimbabwe on the agenda of this House. [Interjections.] Let me add also, just to correct a misapprehension on the part of the hon Van Schalkwyk, that no one, I repeat, no one ... [Interjections.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I hope we want to listen to the debate from both sides of the House. Could we please give members who are at the podium a chance to be heard. Continue, Dr Pallo Jordan. Dr Z P JORDAN: Mr Chairperson, I want to add that no one, least of all the leadership of the ANC, ever pressured me to withdraw any motion that I put before this House. I never withdrew it and the member should look at the record if he can read. [Laughter.] Rather than using the unfortunate events in Zimbabwe as a means of stimulating and kindling fears and anxiety amongst the minority groups in our own country, I submit that the opposition would serve the people of South Africa and Zimbabwe better by persuading their own constituencies to throw their weight behind our own Constitution-driven programme of transformation. The opposition should be urging its supporters to say yes to land reform, yes to land redistribution, yes to the restitution of land, yes to decent wages and working conditions and yes to collective bargaining for the agricultural sector. I want to pose a question: After President Mbeki has shouted himself hoarse in denouncing President Mugabe, what would the Leader of the Opposition, my good friend Max du Preez and the editors of the Sunday Times propose he does as a second act? I want to urge us all to weigh up in earnest and seriously what the probable outcomes of the courses of action we propose would be. Let us remember also that whatever its faults, the government led by President Mugabe, unlike that of Ian Smith or even that led by F W de Klerk, is a legitimate and an elected government ... [Laughter] ... elected in a process that an all- party observer mission from this Parliament found acceptable. The political hyperbole of calling Mugabe a tyrant makes good headlines. But does it make political sense? Would Zimbabwe's economic collapse be to South Africa's advantage? Unlike South Africa during the days of apartheid, there is no body of opinion in Zimbabwe which demands sanctions. Yesterday, when we met the MDC leadership, they told us that they were opposed to sanctions. The political and economic stability of Zimbabwe and of the region requires of us as South Africans to be measured both in our pronouncements and in our actions. Our task is to assist the people of Zimbabwe to arrive at a solution, and not to compound their problems by pursuing ill-advised actions. Economic and political stability are what Zimbabwe needs. We in the ANC have undertaken to assist the people of Zimbabwe to arrive at these. Anything else would be irresponsible. We invite those South Africans who are serious to join us in that effort. [Applause.] Mr C W EGLIN: Mr Chairperson, I know of no one in Zimbabwe with whom I have discussed the issue, no one in this House with whom I have discussed it, and no one in the international donor community that has not agreed that the land issue in Zimbabwe should be handled in a lawful and orderly way. There is no dispute anywhere on this particular issue. But the hon the Chief Whip of the Majority Party gave a spirited defence of the way in which Mr Mugabe's government has been handling it. I want to give him a different interpretation from someone who says that it is at the core of the liberation struggle and that it is important that it should be addressed in an orderly manner. It goes on to say that they could not associate themselves with the chaotic and anarchistic fast-track settlement programme unleashed by the Zimbabwean government in the year 2000. The programme was a flagrant disregard of the law and unleashed a wave of violence that threatened the very stability of society. Even more disgusting was the violence by party hooligans which was directed at farmworkers. We are not convinced that this was a genuine programme. To mask its failures and faced by the prospect of a credible opposition, the government opportunistiscally used the land question to deflect attention from its failures. The fast-tracked land settlement programme was nothing less than an election gimmick. This was a statement in an article by Zwelinzima Vavi, the Cosatu General Secretary, to define Cosatu's position on the land settlement programme and is one of the few occasions on which I advise the Government to follow the lead set by Cosatu. [Interjections.] Surely there can be no member of the House who is in any doubt, at this stage, that the undemocratic and massive actions of Mugabe's government and his political cohorts are doing enormous damage to all the countries of the Southern African region. They are tarnishing the region's image. They are undermining investor and trading confidence. They are destabilising the region's economy. They are destroying the integrity of the region's commitment to uphold democracy, human rights and the rule of law. This is not just because the countries of the region are neighbours and trading partners with Zimbabwe: It is because all of us in this region are also linked with Zimbabwe through our common membership of SADC, an organisation through which we are bound to work for the economic, developmental and political integration of the region, an organ through which we are bound to upholdthe principles of democracy, human rights and the rule of law’’. Thus, no country in this region is insulated from the events that are taking place in Zimbabwe. Every action that Zimbabwe undertakes to undermine democracy impacts on each one of us. Every action that undermines the rule of law and gives presidential legitimacy to lawlessness impacts on each one of us. Every action that undermines the authority of the courts and the independence of the judiciary impacts on each one of us. Every threat to press freedom, every racist attract on minorities and every government-inspired act of political thuggery impacts on each one of us. Because of the commitment of SADC to uphold democracy, human rights and the rule of law, the decision to ignore the events in Zimbabwe taken by the Council of Ministers at its recent meeting - referred to by the Leader of the Opposition - is, I can say, distressingly feeble. According to the chairperson the council sees it as an internal matter which has nothing to do with SADC. What a far cry from the challenging leadership given by President Mandela when he was president of SADC, and I quote: Democracy and human rights are regional concerns, not national ones protected by the principle of noninterference in other’s internal affairs. He went on to say: Can we continue to give comfort to member states whose actions are so diametrically against the values and principles we hold so dear and for which we struggled so long and so hard? It is clear that whatever was intended, the form of quiet diplomacy as practised by the Government has failed to achieve any tangible results in Zimbabwe. But it has succeeded in obfuscating South Africa’s position in response to the Zimbabwean issues. The DA welcomes the recent shift of emphasis in President Mbeki’s approach to diplomacy and the element of urgency. However, there are certain dangers attached to the diplomacy, and I hope he will attend to them. The quietness of diplomacy must not allow anyone to come to the mistaken conclusion that the South African Government is not serious about its international commitment to promote democracy, human rights and the rule of law or that, for the sake of old-time solidarity, it is prepared to turn a blind eye to undemocratic and repressive behaviour. The opaqueness of diplomacy must never be allowed to conceal the very real differences that exist. [Time expired.] [Applause.] The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson, Deputy President, hon members, comrades and friends, I sat listening to the debate and I repeatedly heard members of the opposition raising questions about what they think has not been said. In referring to the weekend statement, they welcomed the emphasis on the change that has been reflected by our President. I think it is important to remind hon members that what the President said over the weekend has been said many times. It has also been said in Bulawayo, Zimbabwe itself, in May 2000. Maybe the issue that we need to ask ourselves is, what is it that we want to hear, that we do not hear? What is, therefore, the concern that underpins the critique of the manner in which this Government has acted? What is this concern that selectively decides that where there are problems in a neighbouring country, a particular player must repeatedly comment on the situation next door? What is this special case that holds only in the case of South Africa refusing to repeat itself on the position of Zimbabwe? After due consideration of the situation, it would seem that many people would choose even to go to the extent of saying that markets will react this way or that way, foreign direct investments will go away and so on. I must say I find no evidence, in the decades-long instability in Ireland, that England, Wales or Scotland was pressurised by all these comments and even by the threat to the markets to the point where their leadership in government rendered them unable to govern without making pronouncements on the situation in Ireland. Dr M Scott, in his book The Different Drums says: Community is like marriage. It requires that we hang in there when the going gets a little rough. He goes on to say: As members of the community become vulnerable and find themselves being valued and appreciated, the wall comes tumbling down, the love and acceptance escalates, the healing and converting begins. As a young South African, this is a profound statement which epitomises how a number of us seated here in this House felt post 1990, and subsequently during the negotiations process and thereafter. The route we chose as a country was captured in the phrase I raised in my introduction. All of us decided to hang in there. For better or for worse, we were South Africans. We put in place processes that sought to deal with our past in a manner that ensured protecting and defending the rights of all, while we attended to the issues of social justice. This is a choice we made. We could have chosen another way. We could have had terrible consequences for all of us in this country and the region. However, we chose peace, negotiation and compromise. This we did in order to rebuild and reconcile. It is, therefore, critical that such experiences are shared with many people in a manner that seeks to build. We created an environment in which every South African felt they belonged to this country. No one said it was going to be easy. A number of challenges that we still face are part of the process of being born again as a new society. The environment we created meant that our people can find each other, learn to accept without shame, who we were and what we did in hurting some of us. The acknowledgement in the Constitution, of dealing with land reform, was but one element where we had to face our past and move on in order to build this community. Today’s debate, therefore, should enable us to seek ways in which we can work together to find a solution to a number of issues and challenges facing the people of Zimbabwe. The President in his address at the Trade Fair in Bulawayo last year said, and I quote: Inevitably, therefore, both of us have the responsibility that extends beyond our borders, and have to respond to this basing ourselves on the regional solidarity and unity in action we achieved during the difficult years of struggle for liberation. Today’s debate calls on us all to re-examine what it is we can do to assist the process of transformation in that country, in a manner that addresses the needs of all the Zimbabwean people. A close study of the land issue in Zimbabwe will reveal that among the chief reasons for the failure to resolve the problem has been the inability of participants brokering the situation to put the interests of Zimbabweans at the centre of their efforts. Consequently, any future efforts to assist in a process that does not put Zimbabweans at the centre are destined to fail. The land question in Zimbabwe dates back to the subjugation of the Shona and Ndebele indigenous people, of that country. The fact that land was the central issue in the liberation war is a known fact and is not up for debate. However, as Thomas Ohlson, Stephen John Stedman and Rob Davis, who is a member of this Parliament, state in their book entitled The New is Not Yet Born: Conflict Resolution in Southern Africa, and I quote: The terms of the Lancaster House agreement dealt with only one aspect of the conflict in Zimbabwe: the political domination of whites over blacks. The Lancaster House settlement clearly changed that. Racial reconciliation, however, was bought at a high cost. The Lancaster House agreement increased political participation by blacks only in exchange for constraints of economic demands for redistribution. The consequences and the aftermath of the Lancaster House agreement are part of the reality that we have to deal with today. The current situation as regards the land issue can therefore be said to be the direct consequence of that agreement. While not denying that the issue deserves attention, the current debate on Zimbabwe arises because some of us here may have inherent fears about the resolution of the land question. As the Minister for Agriculture I must say that in the experiences where we have resolved some of the claims one has seen the pain of the loss by those who are current landowners, and the rejoicing of those people whose land was previously taken away from them. It has been the pain of the legacy of apartheid, which continues to haunt our lives today. Therefore, when such fears arise it is important that we understand. But, clearly, it is true, of course, that our situation with regard to land reform is well known. It is founded on the Constitution and therefore it cannot change. It is based on the market, which allows for negotiations between parties; appeal through courts where there is no agreement; and an expropriation element, which can be undertaken in the public interest. Its strength lies in the transparency in which negotiations for acquisition involve both the claimants and the current landowners. However, in order to avoid such unacceptable developments as land invasion taking root in our country, we must continue to insist upon, and implement diligently, an orderly and well-planned process. Our Government has said repeatedly that land invasions will never occur in South Africa. However, the success of the land reform process depends not only on the efficiency of the Government, but also, and crucially, on the positive role that must be played by all. When elders engage in resolving a troubled marriage, they do so through dialogue with families and friends, including negotiators or abakhongi and the parties to the problem. Clearly when they do so, their interest is to build rather than destroy. Our approach as this Government, particularly as the ANC, in dealing with the Zimbabwean question seeks to build, not to destroy. As South Africa we will play our part. [Applause.] Debate concluded. CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS - CONSTITUTIVE ACT OF THE AFRICAN UNION Mr E I EBRAHIM: Mr Chairperson, the ratification of the Constitutive Act of The African Union by this democratic Parliament today is an historic act, and clearly signals our deep commitment to African unity and African development. The African Union Act, while admittedly needing greater clarity in its wording, is a bold and exciting step forward for Africa. It gives concrete expression to our vision of an African Renaissance, which is fundamental for achieving the goal of making the 21st century an African century. The Act lays the foundation for the establishment of an African Union which will replace the OAU. The OAU and the African Union will coexist for a transitional period of a year or more in order to provide for a smooth transition. It will establish a Pan-African Parliament, and will also provide for the establishment of a court of justice, an African Central Bank, an African Monetary Fund and an African Investment Bank. With the demise of the OAU in its present form, we need to reflect briefly on and pay tribute to the OAU’s nearly four decades of existence. The principle task of the OAU was to liberate our continent from colonial and imperialist oppression. The OAU was unwavering in its support for the liberation struggle on our continent, and especially in its support for Southern African liberation movements, including our own in South Africa. It gave both material and moral support to the liberation movements, and worked hard to place the African revolutionary agenda on the international fora. It is a great tribute to the OAU that Africa today is free from all foreign colonial domination. The OAU also established the principle of the inviolability of postcolonial borders. In the postcolonial era of intensified globalisation, the struggle against poverty, disease, the foreign debt burden, and unfair trade barriers require a new form of organisation. The Millennium African Recovery Programme, known as MARP, is, according to our President, a declaration of a firm commitment by African leaders to take ownership and responsibility for the sustainable economic development of the continent. The organisational structures for the successful implementation of MARP could be found in this African Union Act. The African Union Act expresses a determination - … to take up the multifaceted challenges that confront our continent and peoples in the light of the social, economic and political changes that are taking place in the world. The African Union Act has been inspired by the noble ideals which guided the great leaders of the liberation movements and generations of Pan- Africanists in their determination to promote unity, solidarity, cohesion and co-operation among the people of Africa and the African states. We, therefore, without reservation, ratify the Constitutive Act of the African Union. Dr J T DELPORT: Mr Chairperson, Ex Africis semper aliquid novis [something new will always come out of Africa] became a very well- known expression when people of the western tradition were again and again amazed by the wonders of our Africa. The sad truth is that it is more apt today to say: Ex Africis aliquid semper horrendi [something dreadful will always come out of Africa]. We are dealing today with a new organisation for Africa. We need more than that. We also need a new vision. The DP and DA support the acceptance of the Constitutive Act of the African Union. This, however, does not minimise the fact that the documents setting out what is supposed to be the constitution of the African Union are badly drafted. I wish, in fact, to refer hon members to the report before them. It bluntly states: However, the Act appears to contain - (i) various clauses that could be open to different interpretations; (ii) various clauses that appear to be contradictory; and (iii) clauses that may be interpreted as impinging upon the sovereignty of Member States, in the executive, legislative or judicial spheres, more than is usual in the case of the formation of such a Union. This is a bad start. It invites dissent. It invites malfunctioning and it invites long debates on the legality or otherwise of the functioning of the African Union. Parliament, by adopting this report and taking cognisance of the negative aspects that are pointed out, will be advising our executive of the pitfalls that lie ahead and will in fact be calling upon the representatives of the Republic of South Africa to take the initiative and guide the further development of the Act. Such development will take place by the decisions of that parliament and that council, and by protocols and even revisions and amendments to the constitution. The African Union is set to replace the Organisation of African Unity. The envisaged demise of the OAU is to be applauded. Seldom in history has an international organisation, which was supposed to bring about peace and prosperity, been such a dismal failure. During its existence Africa, as a continent, has fallen back into the clutches of war and even genocide, famine, pestilence, rebellion, civil war and the destruction of developmental frameworks. The three horsemen never had it so good. Time does not allow me to quote all the relevant figures. Millions of people have died and been killed. There are 7,3 million people who are presently refugees. [Interjections.] That member is sitting pretty. He is a fat cat sitting here. He is not in Africa. [Interjections.] Perhaps the most telling of all statistics is the one on child victims. I urge members to listen to what the statistics are on child victims of war over the last decade. Two million children have been killed, 4 to 5 million disabled, 12 million left homeless, more than 1 million orphaned or separated from their parents and some 10 million psychologically traumatised. It is hoped that President Mbeki will be able to instil in the envisaged African Union his concept of an African Renaissance. Africa does not merely need a new organisation, Africa needs a new vision. At present Africa, led by the example of Mugabe, is sinking back into the Dark Ages. It will be the duty of the Republic of South Africa, led by the President, to call upon the members of the African Union to stop the killing and destruction and to start working. Africa needs ploughs, not cannons. The rich potential of the African continent can only be realised if Africa is willing to take up the spade. When the world sees Africa at work and not at war, that is the day upon which the African Renaissance will dawn. Then, if we set the example, we hopefully in future will be able to say: Ex Africis semper lux. [In Africa there will always be light.] [Applause.] Mr E J LUCAS: Mr Chairman, the IFP endorses the ratification of the Constitutive Act of the African Union. We recognise the important role that will be played by South Africa in identifying and implementing the key principles and goals that will underpin African unity. Therefore, it is imperative that this House and, indeed, the nation are united in this matter, to ensure the success of the African Union. Failure in this regard could undermine the whole process. The committee would like to recommend that during the process of negotiation, drafting and adoption of the relevant protocols and the implementation of the Act, Parliament should be informed and consulted in order to strengthen the position of our negotiating team. The IFP regards this to be of paramount importance. Article 3(b) requires states to defend the sovereignty, territorial integrity and independence of member states. Whilst this is a commendable object, the practical considerations of realising it are manifold, not least to ensure that all member states fulfil their financial obligations and that it is not solely borne by a few dedicated member states. That said, we believe that the provisions of the Constitutive Act of the African Union can provide for raising living standards, security and stability in Africa. When one considers the long evolution of the European Union to its present form, one must acknowledge that African unity will not be secured immediately or without obstacles. Africa is a continent with a rich diversity of cultures and group formation which require sensitivity and understanding in the quest for unity. Finally, article 30 of the Act provides that governments which come to power through unconstitutional means shall not be allowed to participate in the activities of the union. By faithful adherence to the democratic principle and the rule of law, member states, by their exemplary conduct, will encourage others to change. That is our most noble legacy to all Africans. Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Voorsitter, Paulus skryf in een van sy briewe: Hoewel ons in die wêreld is, is ons nie van die wêreld nie.'' Vir 'n baie lank tyd was daar ook in Suid-Afrika die opvatting onder 'n deel van die gemeenskap dat hoewel ons in Afrika is, ons nie van Afrika is nie. Die siening is nie meer geldig in die een-en-twintigste eeu nie. Ons is almal in Afrika en van Afrika en lidmaatskap van die Afrika Unie is daarom noodsaaklik en die Nuwe NP steun die wet wat dit magtig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson, Paul wrote in one of his epistles: Although we live in the world, we are not of the world.’’ For a very long time a certain section of the South African community was also of the view that although we lived in Africa, we were not of Africa. This view is no longer valid in the twenty-first century. All of us are in Africa and of Africa, and for this reason membership of the African Union is essential, and the New NP supports the Act authorising this.] The time has arrived for South Africa to come in from the cold and to pursue a leadership role on the continent that will make it possible for Africa to survive in the sea of globalisation. The provisions of the Act that establishes the African Union give South Africa an excellent opportunity to promote, inter alia, President Mbeki’s vision of a Millennium African Recovery Programme. The approval of the Act is, therefore, important. When South Africa takes the chair of the African Union next year, it will have an obligation to exercise leadership in many fields, of which the interpretation of article 4 of the Act, which deals with the underlying principles, is among the most important. Article 4(g) guarantees noninterference by any member state in the internal affairs of another, and article 4(m) encourages respect for democratic principles, human rights, the rule of law and good governance. But what has, up to now, caused the downfall of Africa in many respects and has been detrimental to progress and development is the fact that the so-called noninterference principles have overridden the human rights principles in many countries. The noninterference principle is merely used as a fig leaf to continue with violations of the rule of law, disregard for the democratic principles and contempt for human rights. Under the leadership of South Africa, member states should be convinced that human rights are universal. There may be such a thing as capitalism with Chinese characteristics, but there can never be such a thing as human rights with Nigerian characteristics or, perhaps more appropriate, with Zimbabwean characteristics. Once the universality of human rights is firmly embedded in the continent, Africa will get its fair share of foreign investment conducive to economic development. Against this backdrop the idea of an African economic community may become a reality sooner rather than later. [Applause.] Mr M E MABETA: Chairperson, hon members of Parliament, Deputy President, the UDM would like to commend the Speaker of this House for the important role she has played in the development of this Act. The fact that so many countries are involved in this debate on the African Union is a strong indication of the level of maturity on political processes underlying the quest by Africans for the advancement of democratisation and strategies for sustainable economic relationships with the rest of the world that is defined by globalisation. There are, indeed, many impediments to union, but the vision and the mission for union must not be allowed to be weakened or stifled by specific problems, for most of these problems are in any case engineered from outside. How else does one explain Europe’s success in the development of a workable economy and securing common policies outside the UN framework, and at the same time accept a scenario which rejects the practical advantages of an African union? There are inevitably legal problems concerning the various treaties and protocols which need to be negotiated, but these should not warrant political rejection of an African union, which in any case already exists in the form of regional arrangements, such as the ability of the West African states to collaborate on shared defence issues, without undermining the sovereignty of these states. This is but one example illustrating the possibility of reconciling and harmonising the various member states, domestic, international and legal obligations; and the normative change in the developments of the UN system, which to this day have been help captive by the United Nations’ own insistence on a state-centric view of the international community. We are especially challenged as a people to play a leading role in the further articulation and reorientation of the international norms and practices. [Time expired.] Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP appreciates that this Act will have some far-reaching implications and obligations for South Africa. However, South Africa would not be able to continue its prominent role in the subregion and on the continent if it remained outside the workings of the Act. As is mentioned in the committee’s report, however, the Act contains clauses that are problematic, particularly those clauses that may be interpreted as impinging on the sovereignty of member states. A particularly disturbing clause in this regard allows for the executive council of the union to take decisions on policies in areas of common interest such as education and social security. We accept, however, the view of the Department of Foreign Affairs that this Act is a mere skeletal framework underpinning African unity and that the potential problems identified by the portfolio committees would be dealt with by way of negotiation and the adoption of various protocols, including a possible revision for amendment of the Act. This Act must be distinguished from the Abuja treaty, which is a very detailed and specific agreement to promote fair trade on the continent and economic unity. The vagueness and generality of this Act will allow room for South Africa to implement it in accordance with our existing international rights and obligations. It is a political document which enunciates principles and goals for African unity. The ACDP supports the recommendation that, beside the executive monitoring the process leading to the adoption and implementation of the Act, parliamentary portfolio committees should be kept informed of the process on a continuous basis. We as South Africans must be on the playing field to be an effective role-player in the negotiations leading up to the establishment of the African Union as a successor to the Organisation of African Unity, and therefore the ACDP supports the ratification of this Act. Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, the PAC welcomes the Constitutive Act of the African Union. What this Act is creating today did not fall from the sky. Pan-Africanists have been working hard for the realisation of the Pan- African vision for over 100 years. The PAC is particularly happy because this Parliament is adopting the Constitutive Act of the African Union on 27 February which, on the PAC calendar, is Sobukwe Day. In January 1960, Mangaliso Robert Sobukwe wrote an article in Drum Magazine, giving the PAC position on the unification of Africa. He declared, and I quote: For many Africans the united states of Africa symbolises the fulfilment of an emotional urge for formal African unity. The Pan- African effort is not an end in itself; it is a means to an end. Africa can redeem herself only in unity and reclaim her rightful place in world affairs, and use her riches for her own development and technological advancement. Therefore the PAC supports the ratification of this Act. [Applause.] Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, President Mbeki signed the Act on behalf of South Africa two months after the 33 member states of the OAU adopted the Act in July 2000. The reason for creating the African Union emerged at a meeting that was held in Algiers in 1999, at which Muammar Gadaffi raised issues on how best to tackle Africa’s problems. According to Mr W Nhlapho, Deputy Director-General in the Chief Directorate of African Affairs in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, certain issues, such as conflict on the continent, have not been catered for in the Constitutive Act of the African Union. He said that the Act did not ensure the African Union’s effective response with regard to such matters, and posed the question as to whether we have the kind of leadership that can tackle such challenges. An ANC member said that the continent was at a different level of consciousness and that there were many impediments to be overcome in order to attain the continent’s objective. But we must not be weakened. The MF supports this ratification. [Applause.] Debate concluded. Report adopted. The House adjourned at 17:07. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                     THURSDAY, 22 FEBRUARY 2001

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 14 - Government Communication and Information System for 1999-2000 [RP 123- 2000].
2. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

(a)     Government Notice No R.108 published in the Government Gazette
      No 22027 dated 02 February 2001, Regulations made in terms of
      section 40 of the National Prosecuting Authority Act, 1998 (Act No
      32 of 1998).
(b)     Government Notice No R.109 published in the Government Gazette
      No 22030 dated 02 2001, Designation of special investigators,
      appointed in terms of section 19A(1) of the National Prosecuting
      Authority Act, 1998 (Act  No 32  of 1998), as commissioners of
      oaths, made in terms of section 6 of the Justices  of  the Peace
      and Commissioners of Oaths Act, 1963 (Act No 16 of 1963).

                      FRIDAY, 23 FEBRUARY 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

(1)     The following Bill was introduced in the National Assembly on
      23 February 2001 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
      for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:
      (i)     Security Industry Regulation Bill [B 12 - 2001] (National
           Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Safety and
           Security - National Assembly) [Bill and prior notice of its
           introduction published in Government Gazette No 22100 of 23
           February 2001.]
(2)     Report of the Parliamentary Delegation which attended aol
      Assembly seminar on Democracy and Good Governance held in Tokyo,
      Japan, on 25 September - 6 October 2000: INSERT REPORT TABLINGS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: Papers: 1.    The Speaker and the Chairperson:
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 19 -
Independent Complaints Directorate for 1999-2000 [RP 128-2000]. 2.    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
Explanatory Memorandum on the designation of Ireland in terms of
section 2(1)(b) of the Extradition Act, 1962 (Act No 67 of 1962).

                      MONDAY, 26 FEBRUARY 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: (1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 February 2001 in terms of Joint Rule 160(2), classified the following Bill as a section 74 Bill: (i) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 4 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 74(3)(a)) - (Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development - National Assembly). (2) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 February 2001 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75 Bills: (i) Demobilisation Amendment Bill [B 5 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Defence - National Assembly). (ii) Termination of Integration Intake Bill [B 6 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Defence - National Assembly). (iii) Correctional Services Amendment Bill [B 8 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services - National Assembly). (3) he Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 February 2001 in terms of Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bills as section 76 Bills: (i) Housing Amendment Bill [B 7 - 2001] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76(2)) - (Select Committee on Public Services - National Council of Provinces). (ii) Division of Revenue Bill [B 11 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 76) - (Portfolio Committee on Finance - National Assembly). TABLINGS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: Papers:
2. The Speaker and the Chairperson: Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 28 - South African Management Development Institute [RP 137-2000].

COMMITTEE REPORTS: National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Division ofec Revenue Bill [B 11 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 26 February 2001: The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Division of Revenue Bill [B 11 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 11A - 2001].

                   TUESDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2001
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the relevant committees as mentioned below: (1) The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also referred to the Portfolio Committee on Education and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation for information: Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 10 - Education for 1999-2000 [RP 119-2000]. (2) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs: (a) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the People’s Democratic Republic of Algeria concerning Co-operation in the Field of Defence, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (b) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Australia for the Reciprocal Protection of Classified Information of Defence Interest, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (c) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of Belgium concerning the presence of the Belgium Air Force in the territory of the Republic of South Africa, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (d) Agreement for the establishment of a Joint Permanent Commission on Defence and Security between Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Botswana, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (e) Memorandum of Understanding between the Department of Defence of the Republic of South Africa and the Department of National Defence of Canada concerning Defence Industrial Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (f) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Cyprus on Military and Technical Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (g) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa through its Department of Defence and the Government of the Czech Republic through its Ministry of Defence on Defence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (h) Agreement between the Department of Defence of the Republic of South Africa and the Federal Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Germany concerning Cooperation in the Fields of Defence Economy and Defence Technology, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (i) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana and the Government of the Republic of South Africa concerning Defence Training and Technical Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (j) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of India on Defence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (k) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan concerning Cooperation in the Field of Defence and Defence Equipment, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (l) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of Lesotho concerning Defence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (m) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom of Lesotho concerning the Status of Armed Forces in the Kingdom of Lesotho providing assistance in the Establishment of a Sustainable Training Capacity within the Lesotho Defence Force, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (n) Agreement between the parties contributing to the Southern African Development Community’s Combined Task Force and the Government of the Kingdom of Lesotho, providing Military Assistance to the Kingdom of Lesotho and regarding the Status of their Armed Forces, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (o) Cooperation Agreement in the Field of Defence between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Mozambique, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (p) Diplomatic Note Exchange on the Employment of the South African National Defence Force to render Humanitarian Assistance to the Mozambican Government during the Widespread Flooding, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (q) Diplomatic Note Exchange on the Employment of the South African National Defence Force to render Logistical Support to the Mozambican Government during their General Elections, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (r) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Poland on Industrial, Technological and Commercial Cooperation within the scope of the Military Industries, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (s) General Security Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Sweden concerning the Exchange of Classified Information, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (t) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Sweden concerning Defence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (u) Defence Cooperation Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United Arab Emirates, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (3) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Defence, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence: (a) Protocol on Intelligence Cooperation between the Government of the Arab Republic of Egypt as represented by the Director of Military Intelligence and the Government of the Republic of South Africa as represented by the Chief of Defence Intelligence, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (b) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa as represented by the Department of Defence and the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation concerning Defence Intelligence Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. (4) The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also referred to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation for information: Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 5 - Arts, Culture, Science and Technology for 1999-2000. (5) The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also referred to the Portfolio Committee on Health and the Select Committee on Social Services for information: Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 15 - Health for 1999-2000 [RP 124-2000]. (6) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on Finance for consideration and report: (a) The Budget Speech of the Minister of Finance [RP 28-2001]. (b) Estimate of Revenue for the financial year ending 31 March 2002 [RP 34-2001]. (c) Taxation Proposals: Income Tax. (d) Taxation proposals in respect of custom and excise duties laid upon the Table. (e) Division of Revenue Bill [B 11-2001] tabled in terms of section 10(1) of the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, 1997 (Act No 97 of 1997). (f) Budget Review 2001 [RP 27-2001], including “Annexure E: Memorandum to accompany the Division of Revenue Bill”, tabled in terms of section 10(5) of the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, 1997 (Act No 97 of 1997). (g) Appropriation Bill [B 10-2001]. (h) Estimate of National Expenditure 2001 [RP 30-2001]. (i) Memorandum on Vote No 7 - “National Treasury”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (j) Memorandum on Vote No 12 - “Statistics South Africa”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (7) The following programmes of the Memorandum on Vote No 1 - “Presidency”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002 are referred to the following committees: (a) Programme 4: National Youth Commission of Vote No 1 to be referred to the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Youth, Children and Disabled Persons. (b) Programme 5: Auxiliary and associated services to be referred to the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Youth, Children and Disabled Persons and the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women. (8) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs and the Select Committee on Economic Affairs: Memorandum on Vote No 3 - “Foreign Affairs”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (9) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs and the Select Committee on Social Services: Memorandum on Vote No 4 - “Home Affairs”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (10) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government and the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration: Memorandum on Vote No 5 - “Provincial and Local Government”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (11) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications and the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises: Memorandum on Vote No 25 - “Communications”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (12) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises and the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises: Memorandum on Vote No 8 - “Public Enterprises”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (13) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration and the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration: (a) Memorandum on Vote No 9 - “Public Service and Administration”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (b) Memorandum on Vote No 10 - “Public Service Commission”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (c) Memorandum on Vote No 11 - “South African Management Development Institute”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (14) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation: Memorandum on Vote No 13 - “Arts, Culture, Science and Technology”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (15) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Education and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation: Memorandum on Vote No 14 - “Education”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (16) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Health and the Select Committee on Social Services: Memorandum on Vote No 15 - “Health”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (17) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Housing and the Select Committee on Public Services: Memorandum on Vote No 16 - “Housing”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (18) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Social Development and the Select Committee on Social Services: Memorandum on Vote No 17 - “Social Development”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (19) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation: Memorandum on Vote No 18 - “Sport and Recreation South Africa”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (20) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs: Memorandum on Vote No 19 - “Correctional Services”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (21) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs: Memorandum on Vote No 20 - “Defence”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (22) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs: (a) Memorandum on Vote No 21 - “Independent Complaints Directorate”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (b) Memorandum on Vote No 23 - “Safety and Security”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (23) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs: (a) Memorandum on Vote No 22 - “Justice and Constitutional Development”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (b) Government Notice No R.108 published in Government Gazette No 22027 dated 02 February 2001, Regulations made in terms of section 40 of the National Prosecuting Authority Act, 1998 (Act No 32 of 1998). (c) Government Notice No R.109 published in Government Gazette No 22030 dated 02 February 2001, Designation of special investigators, appointed in terms of section 19A(1) of the National Prosecuting Authority Act, 1998 (Act No 32 of 1998), as commissioners of oaths, made in terms of section 6 of the Justices of the Peace and Commissioners of Oaths Act, 1963 (Act No 16 of 1963). (24) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs: (a) Memorandum on Vote No 24 - “Agriculture”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (b) Memorandum on Vote No 28 - “Land Affairs”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (25) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs: Memorandum on Vote No 26 - “Environmental Affairs and Tourism”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (26) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Labour and the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises: Memorandum on Vote No 27 - “Labour”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (27) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy and the Select Committee on Economic Affairs: Memorandum on Vote No 29 - “Minerals and Energy”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (28) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Public Works and the Select Committee on Public Services: Memorandum on Vote No 30 - “Public Works”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (29) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry and the Select Committee on Economic Affairs: Memorandum on Vote No 31 - “Trade and Industry”, Main Estimates, 2001- 2002. (30) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Services: Memorandum on Vote No 32 - “Transport”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (31) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs: Memorandum on Vote No 33 - “Water Affairs and Forestry”, Main Estimates, 2001-2002. (32) The following paper is referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence: Letter from President of the Republic dated 19 February 2001 informing Parliament of the employment of the South African National Defence Force in compliance with international obligations of the Republic of South Africa towards the Government of the Republic of Mozambique for humanitarian assistance during widespread flooding. (33) The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report. Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 14 - Government Communication and Information System for 1999-2000 [RP 123- 2000]. National Assembly:
2. The Speaker: The following member vacated his seat with effect from 15 February 2001: De Beer, S. TABLINGS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: Papers:
3. The Speaker and the Chairperson: Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 30 - Sport and Recreation for 1999-2000 [RP 139-2000].
4. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development: (1) Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Canada on Extradition, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996. (2) Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Canada on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996. (3) Explanatory Memorandum to the treaties. COMMITTEE REPORTS: National Assembly:
5. First Report of the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs on/P> Constitutive Act of the African Union, dated 27 February 2001: The Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Constitutive Act of the African Union, referred to it, and having consulted the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Portfolio Committee on Finance, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the international agreement containing the Constitutive Act. Report to be considered.
6. Second Report of the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs onlio Constitutive Act of the African Union, dated 27 February 2001: The Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Constitutive Act of the African Union, referred to it, and having consulted the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Portfolio Committee on Finance, further reports as follows:
7. The Committee does not wish to, and should not be understood to, be proposing the adoption of any reservations or of a declaration in respect of the said Act.
8. The Committee accepted that the Act would have some far-reaching implications and obligations for South Africa, but that South Africa would not be able to continue its prominent role in the subregion and on the continent if it remained outside the framework of the Act. Although there is understanding for the implications the Act has for South Africa, it is, from a political point of view, imperative that the Act be ratified as a matter of priority if South Africa wishes to remain a committed, influential and credible member of both the OAU/AEC and the SADC.
9. However, the Act appears to contain - (i) various clauses that could be open to different interpretations; (ii) various clauses that appear to be contradictory; and (iii) clauses that may be interpreted as impinging upon the sovereignty of Member States, in the executive, legislative or judicial spheres, more than is usual in the case of the formation of such a Union.
10. Due to constraints of time and information, the Committee wishes to only highlight two such examples, which are possibly of a more serious nature.
11. Firstly, there are the various clauses that deal with the issue of socio-economic policies and integration of the continent, in a potentially contradictory manner, or which may be interpreted as possibly impinging on the sovereignty of the Member States, or which, at the very least, could be open to various interpretations. On the one hand, there are provisions providing - (i) in article 3(c), that an objective of the Union shall be to accelerate the political and socio-economic integration of the continent; (ii) in article 3(l), that an objective of the Union shall be to co- ordinate and harmonise the policies between the existing and future Regional Economic Communities for the gradual attainment of the objectives of the Union; (iii) in articles 9(1)(a) and (e), that the Assembly shall determine the common policies of the Union and monitor the implementation of policies and decisions of the Union; and (iv) in article 13(2), that the Executive Council shall be responsible to the Assembly, and shall consider issues referred to it and monitor the implementation of policies formulated by the Assembly. On the other hand, there are provisions providing - (i) in article 13(1), that the Executive Council shall co- ordinate and take decisions on policies in areas of common interest to the Member States, and then 12 such specific grounds are included, like education, social security and so on; and (ii) in article 11, that the decisions of the Executive Council may be taken by a two thirds majority of the Member States.
12. Secondly, the issue of whether the Act is consistent with International Law and South Africa’s international obligations, requires examination. In this regard there are some provisions, read individually or collectively, which require further attention, namely - (i) article 3(b), requiring states to defend the sovereignty, territorial integrity and independence of its Member States; (ii) article 4(d), on the establishment of a common defence policy for the African Continent; (iii) article 4(h), on the right of the Union to intervene in a Member State pursuant to a decision of the Assembly in respect of grave circumstances, namely war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity; (iv) article 4(j), on the right of Member States to request intervention from the Union in order to restore peace and security; and (v) articles 7 and 11, allowing for decisions of the Assembly and the Executive Council, respectively, to be taken by a two thirds majority of the Member States. The difficulty with these provisions, as presently worded, is that they may be used to justify a use of force in contravention of International Law and the Charter of the United Nations. Article 2(4) of the Charter of the United Nations provides that all “Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations”. In exceptional circumstances, where force may be used, this can only be done in self-defence or with the authorisation of the Security Council (Chapter VII of the UN Charter). It should also be noted that interventions and the use of armed force without Security Council authorisation are illegal. According to prevailing legal opinion, there is an indication that international law may be changing in this regard. The recent NATO intervention in Kosovo (though by no means uncontroversial) is a case in point. Furthermore, there is a trend in interpreting Article 51 of the UN Charter (which condones the use of force for individual or collective self-defence until the Security Council has become seized of the matter) very widely to condone interventions. Thus, it can be said that the aforementioned provisions do not per se give a right to use force, but, at the very least, they may present the opportunity for such an interpretation. Therefore, the conclusion may be reached that both international law on the use of armed force and the provisions of the Act are possibly open to interpretation. Having said that, however, the possibility of having the Act conflict with International Law, including the UN Charter, may be a serious one and must be considered seriously.
13. In response to the above issues and other matters raised by the Committee, the Department of Foreign Affairs has indicated that the Act is a mere skeletal framework underpinning such an African Union, which will have to be elaborated on for its effective implementation. This elaboration may take place by way of negotiation and adoption of various protocols on specific aspects of the Act or decisions of the Assembly or revision and amendment of the Act in accordance with Article 32. The Department is of the view that this will provide the opportunity to ensure that the potential problems identified by the Committee would be able to be dealt with through these processes, which are intended to concretise the provisions contained in the Act. The Committee agrees with this point of view and the approach suggested by the Department. The Committee recommends accordingly.
14. It is recommended that the Executive monitor the processes leading to the adoption of the Act and the implementation of the Act upon adoption, to ensure that it is interpreted and applied in accordance with our Constitution and legal dispensation and our obligations under International Law and international conventions and treaties. The Committee would further like to recommend that, during the process of negotiation, drafting and adoption of such protocols and the implementation of the Act, Parliament be kept informed of progress, including, if and when possible, to be consulted on such processes, in an inclusive attempt to strengthen the hand of our negotiators during such processes. Report to be considered.