WEDNESDAY, 28 FEBRUARY 2001 __

                  PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:00.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

               QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr M RAMGOBIN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the pledge made by the Dutch Prime Minister to give financial support to South Africa for rescue operations to aid flood victims in Mozambique;

(2) believes that this act of goodwill demonstrates an appreciation of the assistance rendered by South Africa to flood victims in Mozambique;

(3) welcomes the pledge made by the Dutch Prime Minister; and

(4) urges other countries in the developed world to emulate this gesture of goodwill and to contribute to creating a caring world for the less fortunate.

Mr W J SEREMANE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the motion moved by the hon Landers, the former Deputy Minister of Population Development in the erstwhile P W Botha Cabinet, and the interest of the governing party in the activities and leadership of the DA;

(2) accepts that Mr Leon was put in his position as Leader of the Opposition by several million voters who obviously like and accept his leadership style …

[Interjections.]

(3) also notes that, today, he heads a party where one in four South African voters supports the Democratic Alliance and his leadership;

[Interjections.]

(4) further notes that this is in stark contrast to the latest Nielsen ratings which indicate that President Mbeki is considered to be doing poorly as President …

[Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it possible for the previous speaker to repeat the notice of motion, because it was impossible to hear it? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Mrs S A SEATON: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes the recent occurrence in Brazilian prisons where 7 000 people were taken hostage, four wardens and a four-year-old hostage were injured, 19 inmates died and buildings were burnt, and believes that this should serve as a valuable lesson to us in South Africa that when the correctional system is not well handled and the systems in place do not get sufficient support, then it can become a major source of insecurity and instability; and

(2) calls for continued support for the Minister of Correctional Services and the criminal justice system in their efforts to make our correctional services efficient and effective.

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House - (1) notes that -

   (a)  the DA-controlled Cape Town City Council cut the water supply of
       51 families in Tafelsig, Mitchells Plain, on the Cape Flats
       after subjecting others to evictions and arrests;


   (b)  in the rest of democratic South Africa, access to clean water is
       a basic human right; and


   (c)  the poor people have been the target of the DA's inhumane
       policies, and believes that this irresponsible action makes a
       mockery of the DA's election promises to supply free water to
       Capetonians; and

(2) calls on the hon Tony Leon and the DP-dominated alliance to reinstate the supply of clean water to Tafelsig immediately and to respect the right to basic services.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, there is too much noise in the House. Let us control our heckling, please! Mrs S M CAMERER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with alarm that -

   (a)  the SAPS' crisis of credibility has been further confirmed by
       the fiasco of the fake hostage drama at Wonderboom Airport
       which, after all, was only an SAPS training exercise; and


   (b)  local and international media groups were repeatedly informed by
       SAPS spokespersons that the incident was genuine and, therefore,
       it was reported to the public, here and abroad, as such;

(2) notes that the New NP and the DP condemn this incident, because not only has it damaged the public’s trust in the SAPS, but it has also caused international embarrassment and proved that there is still a serious lack of communication skills within the SAPS; and

(3) therefore urges Minister Tshwete and the National Police Commissioner to investigate the situation, identify the culprits and take the necessary steps to prevent similar irresponsible and unacceptable behaviour in future.

[Interjections.]

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  during the next few days, millions of Muslim pilgrims from
       around the globe will converge on the plains of Mount Arafat,
       near Makkah, Saudi Arabia, for the final days of Hajj; and


   (b)  on 6 March, a billion or more Muslims will celebrate Eid-ul-
       Adha, the day of sacrifice; and

(2) therefore wishes -

   (a)  all pilgrims spiritual upliftment, a memorable experience,
       Godspeed and a safe return to their homes and dear ones;


   (b)  all Muslims a happy Eid-ul-Adha, and may the sacrifice of
       animals be without problems;


   (c)  that obedience, humility, patience, tolerance and sacrifice, the
       cornerstones in the lives of the prophets Abraham, Hagar and
       Ismail, be the virtues of all humankind ...

[Time expired.]

Mr J D ARENDSE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  that the divisions in the New NP-DP alliance are becoming
       sharper by the day;


   (b)  that senior leaders of the two parties at all levels disagree
       about the role of the so-called DA, with the New NP wanting to
       engage in constructive criticism while the DP, in the words of
       its Eastern Cape leader, Eddie Trent, opposes ``everything done
       by the ANC Government''; and


   (c)  that Trent rebuked a New NP MPL for supporting Premier Stofile's
       state of the province address;

(2) agrees that this kind of super-centralist paranoia on the part of the DP is not good for democracy; and

(3) calls on the New NP members to reject this tyranny and play a meaningful role in building our country.

[Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) welcomes Education Minister Kader Asmal’s plan to make South Africa’s school children exercise during school hours to promote integration;

(2) notes that the Minister wants physical education back on the curriculum to develop children’s bodies and minds, to keep them occupied and to teach them values such as co-operation, team spirit, dialogue and communication - particularly in racially mixed schools;

(3) further notes that he wants to make sport a central part of the school curriculum, and not just an extramural activity; and

(4) believes that sport will play an important role in developing communities and will instil some discipline in our school children.

Mr G E BALOI: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the swift action taken by the Minister of Minerals and Energy,
       Mrs Mlambo-Ngcuka, in the matter pertaining to the Central
       Energy Fund and the Strategic Fuel Fund; and


   (b)  that the swift arrests of luminaries in the wake of
       investigations by Kroll Associates and the Scorpions in this
       matter give hope that where Ministers of state are determined to
       uproot corruption, it can be done; and

(2) commends the Minister responsible and hopes that her Cabinet colleagues will take a leaf from her book regarding taking action against wrong-doers, regardless of who they are and where they are.

Mrs B TINTO: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the family of the late Amy Biehl set up the Amy Biehl Foundation in honour of their daughter who was killed in Gugulethu;

(2) further notes that this foundation is playing an important role in the reconstruction and development of the African townships in the Western Cape;

(3) believes that the Biehl family has set an important example of reconciliation and has shown confidence in our endeavour to build a country which is free from racism and racial prejudice; and

(4) commends the work of the Biehl family and the Amy Biehl Foundation in contributing to building a nonracial, nonsexist and democratic South Africa.

[Applause.]

Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House - (1) notes -

   (a)  the increasing voices of dissatisfaction from military veterans
       organisations who are unhappy with their demobilisation
       dispensations; and


   (b)  that the terms and amenities granted to the various groups
       differ considerably; and

(2) calls upon the Government to -

   (a)  meet representatives of all military veterans organisations in
       South Africa to hear their concerns; and


   (b)  ensure that all military veterans are treated with the same
       fairness and material support.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) learns with utter shock that, as of last year, there were about 500 000 traffic accidents, 9 000 deaths, 36 000 serious injuries and 84 000 less serious injuries on South African roads;

(2) learns with alarm that the cost to the economy, only for last year, was R15 billion pertaining to these accidents;

(3) is dismayed to learn that the country pragmatically needs about 30 000 traffic officers, costing R2 billion per year, instead of the 7 500 that it has at present; and

(4) urges the Ministry and the Department of Transport to urgently attend to this matter to save lives, as the estimated cost of R2 billion per year is far less than the reparation cost of R15 billion per year, if the status quo continues.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I think you have missed out my name on the list. Can I ask you to include my name? [Interjections.] I was supposed to have been ninth on the list.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I will rectify that just now. Mr H P CHAUKE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the oldest liberation movement in the world, the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the courageous and inspirational performance of Bafana Bafana in its 2 - 1 victory over Malawi in the World Cup qualifying match on Sunday;

(2) congratulates Bafana Bafana on their winning performance; and

(3) wishes coach Carlos Queiros and the boys every success in the rest of the World Cup qualifying games.

Viva Bafana Bafana, viva!

[Applause.]

Mnr J J DOWRY: Meneer die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis - (1) daarvan kennis neem dat -

   (a)  die Speaker van die Noord-Kaap, mnr Calvin Smith, gister die DA
       se taalombudsman, mnr Adriaan van Niekerk, uit die Wetgewer
       gejaag het omdat hy durf praat het oor taalaangeleenthede
       gedurende die debat oor die Premier se openingsrede; en


   (b)  die gebeure spruit uit die grootskaalse ontevredenheid in die
       provinsie oor die verheffing van Engels as die enigste amptelike
       taal van die Wetgewer in die openingsrede, terwyl daar slegs 2%
       Engelssprekendes in die Noord-Kaap is, 20% Setswana-sprekers,
       70% Afrikaanssprekendes en 6% isiXhosa-sprekers;

(2) saamstem dat sulke onsensitiewe optrede van ‘n Speaker nêrens in Suid- Afrika geduld mag word nie en dat nóg Afrikaans nóg enige van die ander inheemse tale gemarginaliseer mag word; en

 3) sterk optrede en 'n verskoning van die betrokke Speaker eis. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr J J DOWRY: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the Speaker of the Northern Cape, Mr Calvin Smith, yesterday
       chased the DA's ombudsman on languages, Mr Adriaan van Niekerk,
       out of the Legislature because he dared to touch on language
       matters during the debate on the Premier's opening address; and


   (b)  the incident arises out of large-scale dissatisfaction in the
       province regarding the elevation of English to the only official
       language of the Legislature in the opening address, while people
       in the Northern Cape are only 2% English, 20% Setswana, 70%
       Afrikaans and 6% isiXhosa speaking;

(2) agrees that such insensitive behaviour by a Speaker should not be tolerated anywhere in South Africa and that neither Afrikaans nor any of the other indigenous languages should be marginalised; and (3) demands firm action and an apology from the Speaker concerned.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mr Blanché, I am not taking a notice of motion. [Interjections.] Order! I just want to reply to your point of order. The list I have with me does not include your name. Your name does not appear on the list for notices of motion. [Interjections.]

  SENDING OF MULTI-PARTY DELEGATION OF MPs TO PALESTINE AND ISRAEL

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the dramatic escalation of violence in Palestine and Israel;


   (b)  the need for people in other countries to better understand the
       conflict between Israel and Palestine and offer whatever support
       we can to assist in the just and lasting settlement of the
       conflict;


   (c)  our own experiences of negotiating a peaceful transition from
       apartheid to democracy;


   (d)  the links between communities in our country and the people of
       Israel and Palestine; and


   (e)  that the Palestine Legislative Council is unable to convene and
       fulfil its responsibilities; and

(2) therefore resolves to -

   (a)  send a multiparty delegation of MPs to visit Palestine and
       Israel as soon as possible on a fact-finding mission;


   (b)  request the delegation to report back to Parliament on its
       findings; and


   (c)  explore ways in which the South African Parliament can be of any
       assistance in encouraging a peaceful settlement of the conflict
       between Israel and Palestine.

Mr D J SITHOLE: Chairperson, the motion by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party is a very important one because it goes beyond party politics. It locates the South African people at the centre of the resolution of the conflicts in the world.

Our commitment to assist in resolving conflicts is demonstrated by our readiness at all times to engage all parties involved in conflicts. The escalation of violence in Palestine and Israel and the continued killing of children is a concern to us as South Africans. [Interjections.] This country went through violence perpetrated by the apartheid state, so we cannot sit back and watch humankind being destroyed.

This Government has made strides in resolving conflicts on this continent. This motion demonstrates our commitment to playing a role in the peaceful resolution of the situation in the Middle East. Our support for peace and the coexistence of nations is important. Parliamentarians going to the Middle East will add impetus to the world’s efforts to bring peace to that region. The nonfunctioning of the Palestinian Legislative Council is a problem whose resolution we should encourage. Where there is no authority there are bound to be problems. Therefore it is important for parliamentarians to go to the Middle East to encourage Israelis and Palestinians to look beyond their problems.

The ANC wishes to urge all political parties in this House to support the fact-finding mission to the Middle East without reservation. The mission will help South Africans to get first-hand information about the actual situation in the Middle East. Although the hon the Leader of the Opposition howls when somebody is at the podium, I would appreciate it if, in future, he would consider not howling. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr C W EGLIN: Mr Chairman, the DA finds the intention behind this motion commendable, and there are certainly two reasons for this. I think the intention reflects the very deep concern which many South Africans have about the situation that has developed in Israel and Palestine: their concern about the violence, loss of life, hardship and insecurity being suffered by people there, and the prospect of an escalating war and a danger to world peace. These are concerns in South Africa.

Secondly, it also reflects the wish of so many South Africans that they could do something to help to resolve the conflict and to bring peace and stability to that region, which, for some almost mystical reason, is of such special significance to millions and millions of people around the world. So, it is against this background that we support the concept that is contained in this motion.

However, we will raise and identify certain practical issues which will have to be resolved. We also have to deal with certain presumptions, on which the resolution is based, which also have to be resolved. The first one is the presumption that it is the function of Parliament to undertake the role of peacemaking. I would be quite happy to become involved in this role, but I must say that this is normally the role of the Government of a country. It is normally the role of the executive. I have not heard of proposals that we should send a parliamentary delegation to the DRC to be the peacemaker. [Interjections.] I have not heard that we were going to send a delegation. [Interjections.] It is normally the function of the executive. [Interjections.]

I am not arguing that we should not get involved. All I want to say is that we will then have to make quite sure that, in this respect, where we are now moving into the field of the executive, we have the full support of the President, the executive and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in this exercise. We cannot just presume that we, as Parliament, are suddenly going to take over a function which normally belongs to the executive. I am saying that we have to clear this up. [Interjections.]

The second presumption is that both of the parties involved, at this particular time, would like a delegation from South Africa in their territories on a fact-finding mission. I think it would be good to go, but it does not involve only us; it involves the other countries concerned. Do they want a fact-finding mission from South Africa? Is it appropriate that a parliamentary delegation from South Africa only, considering all the parliamentarians around the world, should be the appropriate body to act as peacekeeper in that particular area? [Interjections.] I am not arguing against it. [Interjections.] We must not presume that because we want to be the peacemakers of the world this whole matter is going to fall into place. [Interjections.]

I believe that these are the very practical issues that have to be raised. We cannot go there unless there is also an assurance that we will have the opportunity to meet whoever we want to meet, both as individuals and as organisations, and go to any part of that territory in order to conduct our fact-finding and peacekeeping mission.

All that I am saying is: We can pass this resolution, but we will have to refer it to some small multiparty committee to flesh out the details, to check it out with our own executive, to check it out with the governments of other countries involved and to check on the logistics and the finances.

So, while we support this as a concept, we say that having taken the decision, we will have to attend to these very important matters of detail which can either cause it to sink or to swim. This is not just my point of view. Going there is not an act of self-indulgence for this Parliament. It is a serious exercise of trying to save the lives of other people. Therefore, I believe that we should deal with it in a serious way. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Mr Chairman, in order to establish peace between Israel and Palestine, South Africa should not be seen to be taking sides in addressing the matter. The United Nations must play a central and legitimate role in the resolution of the Israel and Palestine conflict. After all, it was the United Nations that established the state of Israel out of Palestinian territory in 1948.

Out of all conflicts in the world, there are nine that have produced more than 5 million refugees who have been physically displaced from their countries of origin. This is one of the most prolonged conflicts in the world today, and it warrants urgent and decisive, solid intervention by the international community.

The peace process that was supported by the former President of the United States of America should continue and all parties should be made to implement what was agreed upon in the Oslo Accord. The newly elected Prime Minister of Israel, Mr Sharon, should not discard everything that has been achieved by the former Prime Minister, Mr Barak, just because they do not belong to the same party.

If a South Africa delegation is sent to Israel, they should not be seen to be supporting any faction in the Middle East conflict when they are driven around the country. Only adherence to the Oslo Accord by all parties affected by the conflict will eventually bring peace in the Middle East. Therefore, we support the multiparty delegation to the Middle East. [Applause.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson, the New NP supports the motion before the House, but we are not very optimistic about the chances of the South African Parliament facilitating peace between Israel and Palestine. [Interjections.] Even the South African Government has limited leverage in the Middle East. Perhaps as a Parliament, we should rather concentrate our efforts on trying to facilitate peace in the Democratic Republic of Congo, a fellow member of the Southern African Development Community, where we do have influence. But if we are going to send a fact-finding mission, it should be by consent of both the Israeli government and the Palestinian authority. This point was very clearly made by Mr Eglin as well.

Although the situation in Israel and Palestine no longer poses a threat to world peace as was the case during the Cold War, it remains of paramount importance to reach a permanent peace agreement, because innocent people are dying unnecessarily and because the Israelis and the Palestinians have nowhere else to go.

One of the unfortunate consequences of the present situation is that the Oslo Accord has apparently run its course and this calls for a new peace formula, preferably under the auspices of the United Nations as pointed out by the hon member of the IFP. But an independent Palestinian state and the safety and security of the state of Israel should form the cornerstones of such a new peace formula, as was the case with the Oslo Accord.

Perhaps the South African Parliament and Government could be of assistance with regard to the peace process in the Middle East in two ways. Given our own experience, we can emphasise the need for making sacrifices in return for lasting peace amongst the Israelis, and we can convey to our friends in the Arab league that, as long as there are states such as Iran and Iraq which refuse to recognise the state of Israel, its right to safety and security, then peace will remain a pipe dream. I think the summit of Arab leaders, scheduled for next month, could play a pioneering role in this regard. [Applause.]

Mr B H HOLOMISA: Chairperson and hon members, the UDM supports the constitution of a multiparty delegation of members of Parliament to visit the said countries.

As early as 1973 international efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict were dominated by the American influence in which personalities of that country’s secretaries’ of state, such as Henry Kissinger and his successors, played a decisive role. The most important feature of this American influence is that it has not yielded any acceptable results to the contesting parties in the region, except that the Palestinian people continue to be denied their right to self-determination. Rays of hope for acceptable peace settlements are often dashed as soon as they appear on the distant horizons of international negotiations. Mutual hostilities, in the process, continue.

Although the current Palestinian leadership accepts initiatives for peaceful negotiations, it is doubtful whether future generations who will inherit the leadership of the struggle for self-determination will accept initiatives for peace in the same spirit as their fathers. The current level of hostilities and the continuing violence may well force them to regard initiatives for peace as attempts to lead them into a Trojan horse for total destruction. If this situation is not addressed immediately, attitudes of this generation will harden.

In the meantime, the UDM recommends that the regional leaders in the Middle East approach the UN Security Council to produce a new framework … [Time expired.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Mr Chairman, the ACDP supports the motion on two conditions. [Interjections.] Firstly, that the mission must be neutral and, secondly, that the Chief Whip of the majority party ensures that this mission is truly multiparty. All parties must go, not only the ANC and the DA. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, almal van ons in hierdie Raad stem saam met punt 1(a) van hierdie mosie, naamlik dat daar ‘n dramatiese eskalering van geweld in Palestina en Israel is. Dit is in niemand se belang nie en hoe gouer daar ‘n oplossing kom en minder lewens verloor word, hoe beter. Hierdie Parlement het reeds voorheen feitesendings na probleemgebiede gestuur, en daarom het die VF geen beswaar teen punt 2(a) van hierdie mosie nie, naamlik dat die Parlement dan wel ook ‘n feitesending stuur nie.

Die probleem kom egter in as die Suid-Afrikaanse Parlement in die proses in die Midde-Ooste betrokke wil raak. As ‘n mens na punte 1(b) en 2(c) kyk, waarin die woordjie ``help’’ aanhoudend gebruik word, dan suggereer dit presies dit. Suid-Afrika weier om in Zimbabwe betrokke te raak en dit terwyl Zimbabwe ons buurman is en ons sy probleme verstaan.

Die verskoning wat aangebied word, is dat ons nie in Zimbabwe se interne sake wil inmeng nie. Om nou te dink Suid-Afrika kan in die Midde-Ooste ‘n oplossing voorstel, is myns insiens, voor op die wa. Ons betree ‘n mynveld van probleme. Die VF steun die gedagte van ‘n feitesending na die Midde- Ooste, maar ‘n feitesending is daar om inligting in te samel en om te gaan leer; nie om in te meng nie. Nou is die vraag: Wat kan ons leer?

Selfbeskikking in al sy vorme is ‘n begrip wat internasionaal reeds ver ontwikkel is en gebruik word om probleme op te los. Die Palestyne het selfbeskikking gekies as die oplossing vir hul probleme. Die dispuut gaan tans oor watter grond aan die Palestyne gegee moet word en hoeveel outonomie hulle moet kry. Die ANC steun die Palestyne se aanspraak op selfbeskikking - so ook die VF. Die ANC steun die mense van Oos-Timor se aanspraak op selfbeskikking - so ook die VF.

Die ANC verstaan selfbeskikking goed genoeg om selfs in die Grondwet artikel 235, wat handel oor die reg op selfbeskikking, in te skryf. Tog, as enige iemand in Suid-Afrika oor selfbeskikking begin praat, verstaan die ANC skielik niks. Kom ons stuur ‘n feitesending na Israel en ons gaan kyk en leer wat aangaan, sodat ons uit hul probleme leer en nie hier die situasie herhaal nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, all of us in this House agree with point 1(a) of this motion, namely that there has been a dramatic escalation of violence in Palestine and Israel. This is not in anyone’s interest and the sooner a solution is found and fewer lives are lost, the better. This Parliament has already sent fact-finding missions to problem areas in the past, and that is why the FF has no objection to point 2(a) of this motion, namely that Parliament should in fact send a fact-finding mission.

The problem, however, arises when the South African Parliament wants to become involved in the process in the Middle East. When one looks at points 1(b) and 2(c), in which the word ``assist’’ is persistently used, it suggests precisely that. South Africa refuses to become involved in Zimbabwe, and that while Zimbabwe is our neighbour and we understand its problems.

The excuse is that we do not want to interfere in Zimbabwe’s internal affairs. To think that South Africa could propose a solution in the Middle East is, in my view, presumptuous. We would be entering a minefield of problems. The FF supports the idea of a fact-finding mission to the Middle East, but a fact-finding mission is there to gather information, and to learn; not to interfere. The question is: What can we learn?

Self-determination in all its forms is a concept that is already well developed internationally and is used to resolve problems. The Palestinians chose self-determination as the solution to their problems. The present dispute concerns which land should be given to the Palestinians and how much autonomy they should have.

The ANC supports the Palestinians’ claim to self-determination - so does the FF. The ANC supports the claim of the people of East Timor to self- determination - so does the FF. The ANC even understands self-determination well enough to include it in section 235 of the Constitution, which deals with the right to self-determination. Nevertheless, when anyone in South Africa starts talking about self-determination, the ANC suddenly does not understand a thing.

Let us send a fact-finding mission to Israel and let us go and look and learn what is happening, so that we may learn from their problems and not have a repetition of the situation here.] Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, the Palestinian problem was created by Britain through the Balfour Declaration. The solution to the Palestinian question will come when those who created the Palestinian question persuade or force Israel to abide by the Resolutions of the United Nations, especially Security Council Resolution 242. The condemnation of violence and aggression by Israel in die Middle East has been fruitless.

The PAC’s viewpoint is that no amount of tourism from this Parliament will help the Palestinian people. The best this Parliament can do is to ask our ambassadors to speak strongly on the Palestinian question in all international forums, including the United Nations. The USA must also … [Time expired.]

Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Agb Voorsitter, die FA is ten gunste van hulpverlening aan bevriende state en handelsvennote en, om waar konflik tussen sulke state bestaan, eers daartoe toe te tree as om hulpverlening gevra word met die oplos van sulke probleme. Om die Midde-Oosterse probleem te ondersoek en te rapporteer glo ons is die taak van ons diplomatieke missies.

Aangesien parlementslede se taak groot genoeg is om binne die grense van ons land konflik en ander probleme op te los, verkies die FA om nie die Midde-Oosterse konflik in die Suid-Afrikaanse Parlement en in ons gemeenskap in te dra nie. Parlementslede moet die konflikondersoek aan die diplomate oorlaat. Ons sou eerder wou sien dat die Nobelvredespryswenners en oud-presidente Mandela en De Klerk, indien hulle daarom gevra word, raad en advies gee aan die betrokke Midde-Oosterse leiers. Parlementslede het genoeg werk om by die huis te doen, eerder as om te hunker om elders heen te reis. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Hon Chairperson, the FA is in favour of rendering assistance to friendly nations and trading partners and, where there is conflict between such states, only getting involved when assistance is requested to resolve such problems. We believe investigating and reporting on the Middle East problem is the task of our diplomatic missions.

Since members of Parliament have a sufficiently great task to resolve conflict and other problems within the borders of our country, the FA prefers not to bring the conflict in the Middle East into the South African Parliament and our community. Members of Parliament should leave the investigation of the conflict to the diplomats. We would rather see the Nobel Peace Prize winners and former presidents Mandela and De Klerk, should they be asked to do so, give advice to the relevant leaders in the Middle East. Members of Parliament have enough work to do at home, instead of yearning to travel elsewhere. [Time expired.]]

Debate concluded.

Motion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:37. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Government Notice No R.130 published in the Government Gazette No 22050
 dated 16 February 2001, Cancellation of appointment of authorised
 dealers in foreign exchange.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry: Report of the Registrar of Companies for 1998 [RP 195-2000].