National Assembly - 29 March 2001
THURSDAY, 29 MARCH 2001
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 14:01.
The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Members, please get to your seats, and do not move in front of the microphone. Will you get to your seats please, and sit down!
Mr M M S LEKGORO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the Millennium African Recovery Programme advances the aims of
the 21st century and will ensure that it is an African century;
(b) the African century will be characterised by the all-round
advancement of the continent, allowing it to be on a par with
those described as developed; and
(c) the contribution of the highest-earning top 20 would amount to
R60 billion and could provide education for all the people; and
(2) supports the President in inviting the world’s 200 richest people to make a contribution of 1% of their annual income to ensure that the world’s poorest have access to primary education.
[Applause.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) between 1995 and 1999, at least 2 543 registered nurses left the
country; and
(b) many of these nurses left as a direct result of inexcusably low
salaries and abysmal working conditions, which compelled them to
look for new jobs in countries where their skills and dedication
would be adequately rewarded; and
(2) calls on the Government to launch an immediate investigation into the working conditions and salaries of nurses in South Africa, and to take steps to prevent the further deterioration of this situation.
[Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the murder of two police officials was abhorrent;
(b) for police officers to lose their lives as they work to protect
the public is a sure sign that we are a sick society; and
(c) almost daily law-abiding citizens, including women, children and
law-enforcers, fall victim to criminals who terrorise
communities with impunity; and
(2) calls on -
(a) all South Africans to declare war on criminals;
(b) communities to help the law-enforcement agencies by identifying
and exposing criminals wherever they are hiding; and
(c) both the Department of Safety and Security and the Department of
Justice to co-operate to ensure that criminals are apprehended
swiftly, brought before the courts and handed very heavy
sentences, similar to those handed to the Cape Town criminals
who raped and murdered a 14-year-old girl.
Mr Z KOTWAL: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) the racist statements by Cape Town Mayor, Peter Marais, in a
meeting of the Unicity Council when he said that he ``was tired
of black people who hide behind their colour when they cannot
get their way'';
(b) that this kind of racism has become synonymous with the DA;
(c) that Mr James Selfe said ``all blacks want a three-storeyed
house with a swimming pool''; and
(d) that Mr Nigel Bruce said ``black waiters keep their eye on the
clock and their thumb in the soup''; and
(2) calls on the DA and lance corporal Tony Leon to shed its racist stereotyping and join the national campaign for a nonracial society.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP and the DA:
That the House - (1) objects in the strongest possible terms …
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Dr Geldenhuys, we have said that when you move a motion, you move it on behalf of your party only, and not on behalf of the other party. Will you continue, please.
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson, on behalf of the New NP I shall move:
That the House -
(1) objects in the strongest possible terms to the fact that the hon Deputy President was not available for questions in the House yesterday or today, as promised to the whippery;
(2) notes with indignation that the constant absence of Ministers during question time is not only disrupting the business of the House, but also violates the crucial principle of accountability; and (3) reminds the executive that they are no longer a government in exile and that their first and foremost responsibility lies within the country.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission will start winding down its operations on Sunday, as a first step towards its final closure later this year;
(2) acknowledges the overall excellent work that the commission has done in the past six years;
(3) expresses its heartfelt appreciation to all the officials, under the inspirational leadership of Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who have performed their difficult task with diligence; (4) applauds the countless South Africans who participated in the truth and reconciliation process, recognising the courage of the victims who reopened their own wounds and still often found forgiveness in their hearts for those who victimised them, as well as those former abusers of human rights who came forward to admit their past wrongs and face their victims in the glare of full public scrutiny;
(5) strongly urges the Department of Justice, which will deal with long- term reparation measures after the TRC’s closure, …
[Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms M C LOBE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the march organised by the ANC Youth League Western Cape and the Kaizer Chiefs’ supporters to protest against the exclusion of soccer at Newlands sportsground by the DA-controlled Cape Town Unicity;
(2) further notes that the exclusion is racial in nature as the majority of the supporters of the game of soccer are black people;
(3) calls on the DA-controlled unicity council to make sporting facilities available for all sporting codes; and
(4) further calls on all other sporting codes and the people of Cape Town to support the protest march.
[Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Momberg, I heard you saying that the hon member is a racist. Will you withdraw that? [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr J H MOMBERG: I said that Mr Iverson who is in charge of that is a racist. I never said that Mr Leon is a racist.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Momberg, will you withdraw that? I heard you say that the hon member is a racist.
Mr J H MOMBERG: If you heard me say that he is a racist, I withdraw it, but I did not say it. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Genl C L VILJOEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die VF sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) daarvan kennis neem dat -
(a) in hierdie week 'n hele aantal grusame plaasaanvalle en -moorde
in Noordwes, Oos-Kaap en die Vrystaat plaasgevind het;
(b) hierdie fyn beplande aanvalle dui op 'n besliste aanslag teen
die boeregemeenskap wat wyer strek as net misdaad; en
(c) dit 'n groot probleem skep om met die Polisie en die Weermag
alle plase en boeregemeenskappe te beskerm en as gevolg daarvan
'n bykomende las op die boere self geplaas word;
(2) ‘n beroep doen op die Regering en in die besonder op die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit, om hulle konstitusionele plig teenoor die boeregemeenskap na te kom, want sonder veiligheid en sekuriteit ly kosproduksie skade; en
(3) die Regering versoek om geldelike hulp en belastingtoegewings aan boere en die boeregemeenskap te gee om selfbeskerming te finansier. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Gen C L VILJOEN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the FF:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) during the past week quite a number of gruesome farm attacks and
murders have taken place in the North West, the Eastern Cape and
the Free State;
(b) these well-planned attacks suggest a definite assault on the
farming community, extending much wider than merely crime; and
(c) it is very difficult for the police and the army to protect all
farms and farming communities and as a result an additional
burden is placed on the farmers themselves;
(2) appeals to the Government, and in particular the Minister of Safety and Security, to meet their constitutional obligations towards the farming community, because without safety and security food production will sustain damages; and
(3) requests the Government to give financial assistance and tax concessions to farmers and the farming community to enable them to finance self-protection.]
Dr S E M PHEKO: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC:
That the House -
(1) notes that the PAC holds that politics is not a matter of race or colour, but of vital material and spiritual interest, because the race question is subsidiary to the class question; and
(2) further notes that the PAC therefore believes that in order to eradicate racism in this country, the following must be done:
(a) the yawning economic gap between Africans and their former
colonisers must be closed;
(b) poor students must be assisted financially by the state to
acquire education and skills, so that there are equal
opportunities in education and the acquisition of skills;
(c) the school syllabus must include the teaching of scientific and
religious facts about the equality of human beings; and
(d) the land question must be seriously addressed and land equitably
redistributed, so that Africans are not the only ones who live
in filthy ``mikhukhus'' and ``vezunyawo'' shelters, and are not
the only ones who have neither land to farm, nor training in
farming to liberate themselves from poverty and provide
themselves with self-employment.
Mr A G LYLE: Comrade Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that Deputy President Jacob Zuma will open the four-day consultative conference of the Khoisan people in Oudtshoorn this evening;
(2) further notes that Northern Cape Premier, Manne Dipico, will close the gathering;
(3) expresses the hope that the consultative conference will contribute positively to the development plans of Government for the Khoisan community; and
(4) welcomes the presence of these dignitaries on this important occasion, which is a clear signal of the commitment of the ANC to improve the quality of life of all the people of South Africa.
[Applause.]
Mr A SINGH: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:
That the House wishes -
(1) all Hindus who celebrated the Hindu New Year earlier this week a happy and prosperous new year; and
(2) especially the Tamil and Telegu community and all those Hindus who are celebrating Ram Nomi, culminating on 2 April, which is the birthday of Lord Ram, a happy Ram Nomi Day.
[Applause.]
Mr J H SLABBERT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) applauds the trial on the new computer equipment by the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport and the Johannesburg traffic department to apprehend long-outstanding traffic offenders by scanning the number plates at a distance;
(2) further applauds this invention by Mr Johan Bosch, as it helped scan 45 vehicles in 54 minutes last Friday;
(3) believes that offenders will be forced to observe the law and that this will contribute to fewer road fatalities; and
(4) requests all provinces to emulate this trend, especially since Easter is imminent.
Mr J T LOUW: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) former President Mandela has initiated a groundbreaking joint
venture between the tourism industry, an NGO and the private
sector to build a school for the children of his home town,
Qunu, in the Eastern Cape; and
(b) this school has nine new classrooms and a science laboratory,
where previously there were only two zinc classrooms, and seven
classes were taught outside;
(2) commends the former President and the other stakeholders for their commitment to the upliftment of poor communities through quality education; and
(3) invites others in the corporate sector and NGOs to join hands with the Government and emulate this initiative to bring a better life for all our people.
[Applause.]
Adv A H GAUM: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) with alarm that the SAPS is so underresourced that even the
basic essentials such as uniforms seem to be in short supply;
and
(b) that some members of the Police Service now have to resort to
paying for uniforms and other needed equipment out of their own
pocket in order to be able to operate effectively;
(2) expresses its good wishes to Sergeant Cornelius de Villiers who is in a critical condition in hospital after he was shot in the chest last Friday, and notes that he had no bulletproof vest to protect him, despite several requests for one;
(3) condemns the fact that a police member was seriously injured due to the lack of basic protection; and
(4) calls on the Minister of Safety and Security to take responsibility for his department by ensuring that the Police budget is effectively allocated, that no money is wasted and that the SAPS members are properly resourced to carry out their duties.
[Applause.]
NATIONAL KHOISAN CONSULTATIVE CONFERENCE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) representatives of South Africa's Khoisan communities are
attending the first-ever national Khoisan consultative
conference, which starts today in Oudtshoorn and is being held
over four days;
(b) Khoisan leaders will be deliberating and discussing their future
constitutional accommodation as well as their religious values,
culture, languages, land rights, economic empowerment, Khoisan
non governmental organisations, global networking and
representation in the media; and
(c) the United Nations working group on indigenous people officially
recognised the Khoisan as the first indigenous nation of South
Africa; and
(2) wishes the Khoisan representatives well in their deliberations within the conference theme “Khoisan diversity in national unity”, or in the Nama language: “gui !nâgasib/guisib !nâ”.
[Interjections.]
Agreed to.
DEFERRAL OF QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J H MOMBERG: Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding the resolution adopted by the House on Tuesday, 27 March 2001, to accommodate questions for oral reply to the Deputy President on Thursday, 29 March 2001, Questions on the Order Paper not be taken today.
Agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON FILLING OF VACANCIES ON COMMISSION FOR GENDER EQUALITY
Ms L M T XINGWANA: Chairperson and hon members, the ad hoc committee has recommended a strong team for appointment by the President for the filling of vacancies in the Commission for Gender Equality. The team comprises gender activists, academics and activists from the working class and rural areas. We have also ensured a provincial spread, especially to some of our poorest and rural provinces such as the Free State, the Eastern Cape, the Northern Province, KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Cape. Gauteng and the Western Cape have also been included since they are central and strategic for governance and parliamentary work.
The priority issues highlighted by all the nominees in the interviews were poverty, skills training for women, gender, violence and abuse, HIV/Aids and the concerns of people living with disabilities. This clearly shows that with such a team, we will be able to put gender issues on the national agenda, and that this team will raise the profile of the Commission for Gender Equality, both nationally and internationally, in the next five years.
To address some of the concerns raised, such as ``this is an ANC list’’, I would like to emphasise that the committee had clear selection criteria based on merit. Many fully-fledged members of the ANC were not included in this list. As the hon Camerer will remember - and she has left - when she tried to push one of the well-known members of the ANC onto the list, the ANC did not prioritise party-political partisanship. The ANC prioritises discipline, a good track record and accountability.
Ngoko ke xa ubani athi efakwe kwindawo ethile aze aphume kuloo ndawo engachazanga zizathu aye kungena kwenye indawo, abuye kwakhona agunyazise ukuba makafakwe kwindawo ethile, makazi ukuba asinalo ke thina ixesha labantu abangalawulekiyo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[Therefore when a person has been put in a certain position and decides to relinquish it for another one without giving any reasons, and then demands to be put in yet another one position that person should know that we do not have time for uncontrollable people.]
We have people who were nominated by the churches, such as Rev Bafana Khumalo, who was elected by the SA Council of Churches in the Northern Province. We have people who were nominated by the universities, such as Adv Rashida Manjoo, and many more who were appointed by NGOs and CBOs. Now, unless we want to say that all our universities, churches or congregations, NGOs and CBOs are ANC, I cannot do otherwise in this case but accept the compliment on behalf of the ANC.
A major weakness that we have identified is that there is only one man named on the list. This clearly shows the disadvantages of merit selection. It is a lesson to some of the opposition parties, and it demonstrates the reason why the ANC adopted affirmative action and quotas to address the inequalities and injustices of the past.
It is my view that the committee should have applied the policy of affirmative action to appoint men or to give them a chance to be on this important body, since they cannot compete with women on these issues. If a man, for instance, had seven points and a woman eight points, we should perhaps have chosen the man to give him a chance and hoped that he would learn along the way. However, we are working with political parties that do not understand this concept. We had pressure in terms of time. We had to finalise this matter urgently. Therefore, we had no opportunity to actually give affirmative action and this process a chance.
I would like to conclude and say that, despite this weakness, the ANC believes that this team will take up the challenges facing the Commission for Gender Equality in the African century and contribute significantly towards equality, development and the total emancipation of the women of South Africa. [Applause.]
Mrs B N SONO: Chairperson the Commission for Gender Equality is one of several independent institutions established by Government to buttress our fledgling democracy. The past few weeks bore witness to the parliamentary Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women having to select new commissioners. The final product was unfortunately held hostage by the interests of the most powerful group in Government, the ANC. [Interjections.] In this instance, all 11 commissioners are from the ANC. It used its majority vote to influence the outcome of the selection. The principles that underline democracy are equality, transparency, accountability, and procedural and substantive fairness.
The DP and New NP opposition parties put forward four names. Not one of them made it to the commission. We submitted the name of one man - a good male candidate in the person of Dr Dumisa. This begs the question: How is the Commission for Gender Equality expected to execute its duties without being subject to the criticism that the interest of the nation as a whole is constantly been sacrificed in favour of the interests of the ANC, which is powerful enough to override national interest? [Interjections.]
The Commission for Gender Equality, as a state institution has a special significance in the Constitution in that it deals with gender equality, which has a huge moral injunction to it. Developments in the Commission for Gender Equality have all but discredited the commission an an agent for transformation and a watchdog for gender equality. The whole process of choosing members for the Gender Commission was a farce. A large number of nominations came from the wife of the President and the ANC Women’s League. [Interjections.] The ad hoc committee continuously nominated and voted along party-political lines. The process was flawed by incompetence within the committee itself. The nominations were bulldozed through by the majority party, cannot be regarded as being done through consensus, and therefore, the DP cannot support the nominations. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, can we please allow the members on the podium to present their case. We are conversing rather too loud.
Prof H NGUBANE: Mr Chairperson and colleagues, I must say right from the outset that the IFP has problems with the composition of the list of nominees before this House.
Chapter 9 of the Constitution contains general provisions to guide the formation of commissions. It reads, and I quote:
The need for a Commission established by this Chapter to reflect broadly the race and gender composition of South Africa must be considered when members are appointed.
The selection has fulfilled the race requirement but not the gender requirement. May I also remind the House that when we celebrated International Women’s Day early this month, Madam Speaker expressed surprise that the list of speakers contained only one male. Hon members will have noticed that out of 11 candidates chosen to fill vacancies on the Commission for Gender Equality, only one of them is male.
If we agree that the gender debate centres around the relationships that exist between men and women in society, and if we also agree that the task is to establish fairness and equal representativeness in those relationships, then it is clear that any structure purporting to address matters of gender must draw from the input of both men and women. It is also particularly disturbing that the outgoing Commission for Gender Equality has failed to make much impact on society. This makes it even more necessary to make a careful selection of candidates for the incoming commission to enable it to function successfully. The IFP believes that as long as the commission is composed essentially of women, it will continue to be ignored and marginalised, and fail to address society as a whole. We in the IFP regret that the list of those selected lacks the necessary balance, especially when candidates who could redress the imbalance were readily available. We therefore cannot support this list as it stands. [Applause.]
Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, what happened in this ad hoc committee whose report we are debating here represents a missed opportunity by the ruling party to ensure inclusivity, national reconciliation and nation-building. It was a travesty of a proper process for appointment and one of the worst examples of the ANC using its parliamentary majority to force through a commission that only the ANC wants. [Interjections.]
By no stretch of the imagination can this list of one man and 10 women nominated for the commission be regarded as speaking on behalf of all the women of South Africa. These are candidates that only the ANC really endorses. Not a single candidate of any opposition party - and the Democratic Alliance nominated four outstanding candidates with national and international reputations … [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, are you rising on a point of order?
Ms N E HANGANA: Chairperson, is hon Sheila Camerer prepared to take a question?
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Are you prepared to take a question, hon member?
Mrs S M CAMERER: Mr Chairperson, I have only four minutes and I have quite a lot to say about what went on.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Proceed, hon member.
Mrs S M CAMERER: These candidates that we proposed have a national and international reputation for promoting women’s development, but they are not on this list. The trouble was that, as far as the majority party was concerned, they were politically incorrect.
Now the DA does agree that among the candidates before this House, there are worthy nominees. However, some even worthier candidates have been excluded by the ANC majority, purely for political reasons. We would like to appeal to President Mbeki to send this list back to the National Assembly, with the directive that the group be more representative and inclusive. [Interjections.]
The New NP certainly cannot support the list as it is. Members of the ANC on the ad hoc committee openly admitted that they were excluding candidates proposed by the DA as a political quid pro quo for removing certain ANC office-bearers from their posts in the Western Cape.
According to the Constitution, the Commission for Gender Equality is meant to be one of the state institutions strengthening constitutional democracy. According to section 181 of the Constitution, it is an independent institution, which must be impartial and exercise its powers and perform its functions without fear, favour or prejudice. But through their conduct, the ANC majority on the ad hoc committee jettisoned any pretence of independence or impartiality in voting to nominate as candidates for appointment by the President only those who found favour with the ANC.
What has happened here, once again, demonstrates the ANC’s growing inability to distinguish between party and state. The DA seriously questions whether the taxpayer’s money should be expended on this commission. The commission has always lacked credibility. It has always been SACP-ANC dominated. It has been intolerant of independent, dissenting voices. The attempt by the previous commission to get rid of Farid Esack - previously the only man on the commission because he dared to query certain decisions of the ANC majority on the commission, - to the extent that he was hauled before Luthuli House luminaries to explain himself, is a case in point.
The DA pointed out that the nomination procedure for the commissioners provided for in national legislation was flawed, when the ANC insisted that a simple majority of this House should be sufficient to confirm the nominees. However, the behaviour of the ANC members of the ad hoc committee has made this far worse. What little credibility the commission ever had, has been sacrificed on the altar of political expediency and the ANC’s insistence on total control. We cannot support these nominees. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Nkszn O N MNDENDE: Mhlali-ngaphambili, kuba buhlungu xa kunje. Akwaba lo ubungengo mba oza kuthi uxoxwe apha ePalamente kuba ngoku ndibona imibutho yezopolitiko ixhwithana, ixhwithana ngento ebuhlungu ngexesha abantu phaya ngaphandle befuna ukuncedwa. [Uwele-wele.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[Miss O N MNDENDE: Chairperson, it becomes painful when it is like this. I wish this was not an issue being discussed here in Parliament, because I see political parties in conflict with each other about a sad issue at a time when people outside need help. [Interjection.]]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member, there is no interpretation that I can pick up.
Miss O N MNDENDE: Chairperson, unfortunately I have already written all of my speech in Xhosa.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I do not dispute the fact that you have written it in Xhosa. I only want your speech to be translated so that other people can understand it too.
Miss O N MNDENDE: Chairperson, should I wait?
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Let me just check quickly. Hon member, please take your seat. I am informed that it is okay now. You can continue, hon member.
Nkszn O N MNDENDE: Enkosi Mhlali-ngaphambili. Lo mbandela uthiwa thaca phambi kwale Ndlu namhlanje, ndinengxaki ngawo kuba ngoku ngathi ndixwaxwa ngabantu abongootata. Ngomnye wemibandela ebaluleke kakhulu kumalungu eKomishoni yeSini, ngakumbi kubantu abahluphekileyo nakubantu basezilalini. Ngoko ke, ngokubhekisele kwizinto ezibaluleke njengezi kukwabalulekile nokuba zijongwe ngabantu abambono zabo zingatyekelanga nakuwuphi na umbutho wezopolitiko. Ngoku kwathina siyaxhwithana apha ngalo mba, kanti phaya ngaphandle abantu bona bayayifuna le Komishoni yeSini.
Ngoko ke kubalulekile ukuba xa kuphononongwa abantu abanje ngaba bale Komishoni kujongwe abantu abanesakhono sokuphuhlisa uluntu jikelele. Kwaye nomcimbi wokujongwa kwabantu ngokungalingani ngokwesini mayibe ngumcimbi abaza kuthi bawubazele iliso elibukhali.
Bendihleli kwikomiti ebiphonononga imiba ethile apha, kwaye ke - abe mbalwa amaqhuzu esiye asavana ngawo. Ndiqinisekile ukuba amanqaku alithoba siye savana ngawo siyimibutho yezopolitiko. KwiKomishoni enje ngale akufuneki oothobela-sikutyele, kufuneka sijonge abantu. Kufuneka iimazi eziphala neenkabi kuba idabi lokungalingani ngokwesini lise likhulu phakathi kwethu. Kwaye yingxaki esekho ukuba nanamhlanje singqubane nabantu besinye isini.
Kufuneka abantu abaza kujonga inyani, bangoneli nje ukuyibona ngeliso lenyama. Sifuna abantu abaxolele ukuphuma ingc’ emqolo, besilwela inyani, hayi ukuba baxhwithane ngezimvo zezopolitiko.
Kufuneka abantu abaza kuma baphengululisise nale migaqo-nkqubo sinayo kuba maxa wambi ithi ibe sisibophelelo esisephepheni nje kuphela, zibe izingqi zona zingavakali. Kufuneka siqiniseke ukuba sinyula abantu esiqinisekileyo ukuba asiyikuphinda sikhale ngokwanda kokujongelwa phantsi komba wokungalingani kwethu ngokwesini. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows) [Miss O N MNDENDE: Thank you, Chairperson. I have a problem with the issue that is being put in front of this House today, because men are booing me. This should be one of the important issues that the Gender Commission looks into, especially with regard to poor people in villages in rural areas. So, it is also important that issues like these are looked at by people whose ideas are not aim at sidelining other political parties. We are fighting one another here while people outside are expecting to work with the Gender Commission.
It is, therefore, important that when the Commission looks at such people’s issues, it should appoint skilled people. Sexism and gender discrimination should be looked at with a very sharp eye too.
I attended a committee meeting that examined certain issues and there are a few points that we did not agree with. I am sure that as political parties we agreed on nine points. In a Commission like this one we should look at people who have potential and not just take people who would take things as they are presented to them. Women should stand up and stand toe to toe with men because gender discrimination is still at large. We are still in conflict with the other sex.
We should have committed people who will act and not just look at things. We need people that will evaluate even these policy documents that we have as sometimes things are only written down but with no follow-ups. We should appoint committed people who will make sure that gender discrimination does not increase but instead decreases.]
That is why we are saying that we need a strong gender commission, which is going to be representative of everyone. That is why we had a problem with two people only whom we felt were being imposed on us. In fact, yesterday, when we had a meeting, we had a problem with one individual from each political party. All in all …
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Your speaking time has expired, hon member.
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairperson, the ACDP notes with concern the nomination of only one man to the commission. This does not do justice to the name of a commission called the Commission for Gender Equality. Future appointments must have a balance of both men and women. I would like to say that diversity in knowledge and experience would have stood this commission in good stead in addressing the complex needs of our society.
Let me remind the House of what the commission ought to do. The work of the commissioners will be tested by their ability to raise respect for life and dignity of all in South Africa. Their task is not to police the affairs of people, but rather to encourage the blossoming relationship-building within our nation; to ensure that the family unit is understood in its traditional meaning and is protected against the ideological confusion that is targeted at destroying our families; and to eliminate the contradictory elements within gender politics that create alienation, mistrust and deliberate polarisation between men and women.
The role of the new commission is to ensure that family rights gain prominence in public debating forums. The ACDP does not support the report. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order Hon members, there is too much noise in the House. Dr P W A MULDER: Geagte Voorsitter, die ANC spog baie graag met die Grondwet van 1996 as ‘n moderne grondwet waarop hulle baie trots is. Hoewel die VF glo dat groepregte nie werklik in die Grondwet aangespreek word nie, is daar tog sterk punte in die Grondwet wat ons ondersteun, soos van die grondwetlike instellings waarvoor in hoofstuk 9 voorsiening gemaak word. Dit sluit in liggame soos die Menseregtekommissie, die Kommissie vir Geslagsgelykheid. Ons meen dit is belangrike liggame wat geloofwaardigheid gee.
Toe ons na 1996 hierdie Grondwet begin implementeer het, was Mandela nog president en daar was ‘n atmosfeer van konsensus, is daar deurlopend gepoog om konsensus te kry om hierdie kommissie so verteenwoordigend moontlik te maak, ten einde hul geloofwaardigheid uit te dra. Vandag stem ons oor die lede van so ‘n hoofstuk 9-kommissie. Daar was geen poging om die kommissie verteenwoordigend saam te stel nie. Die meerderheidsparty is die party wat kan besluit of hy dit wil doen, al dan nie.
Uit die elf name op die lys behoort almal aan die ANC, vandaar die gesamentlike reaksie wat u van die opposisiepartye kry. Ons voorstelle vir ‘n persoon uit die Afrikanergemeenskap is geïgnoreer. Hoe moet ons as Suid- Afrikaners en lede van die opposisie die geloofwaardigheid van hierdie hoofstuk 9-kommissie help bevorder as die lede op so ‘n wyse aangestel word. Die VF sal daarteen stem. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Chairperson, the ANC likes to boast that the Constitution of 1996 is a modern constitution of which they are very proud. Although the FF believes that group rights are not really addressed in the Constitution, there are strong points in the Constitution which we support, such as some of the constitutional institutions for which provision is made in Chapter 9. This includes bodies such as the Human Rights Commission and the Commission for Gender Equality. We feel that these are important bodies which lend credibility.
When we started implementing this Constitution after 1996, Mandela was still the President and there was an atmosphere of consensus, and we constantly attempted to reach consensus so that this commission was representative as possible, in order to extend their credibility. Today we are voting on the members of such a chapter 9 commission. There was no attempt to constitute this commission in a representative manner. The majority party is the party that can decide whether it wants to do so or not.
The eleven people whose names appear on the list belong to the ANC, hence the joint reaction of the opposition parties. Our proposals for a person from the Afrikaner community were ignored. How can we as South Africans and as members of the opposition promote the credibility of this Chapter 9 commission when the members are appointed in such a manner. The FF will vote against it. [Time expired.]]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Agb Aucamp, jy is die tweede man wat aan die debat gaan deelneem. [Hon Aucamp, you are the second man who will participate in this debate.]
Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, on behalf of the AEB I would like to congratulate the committee on its objectivity in this case. They did not mind which ANC supporter on the list they appointed. [Laughter.]
The question of gender equality is important to the AEB and we would like to support the activities of the Commission of Gender Equality. Die saak van geslag en vraagstukke betreffende geslagsgelykheid, manifesteer hom op verskillende wyses in verskillende kulture en gemeenskappe. Vroue het byvoorbeeld ‘n totaal ander probleem in die Afrikanergemeenskap as in ‘n ander tradisionele gemeenskap.
Daar is niemand op hierdie kommissie wat spesifiek na hulle belange kan omsien nie. Dit is een kommissie, maar een groep word aangestel vir twee wêrelde. Die samestelling van hierdie kommissie is ‘n terugwaartse stap vir die saak van vroueregte, en vir die saak van gelykheid in die verskillende gemeenskappe in Suid-Afrika. Die AEB kan ongelukkig nie die samestelling van hierdie kommissie ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows)
[The question of gender and issues regarding gender equality manifest themselves in different ways in different cultures and communities. Women in the Afrikaner community, for example, have a totally different problems to women in other traditional communities.
There is no-one on this commission who can look after their particular interests. It is one commission, but one group is being appointed for two worlds. The composition of this commission is a step backward for the cause of women’s rights, and also for the cause of equality for the various communities in South Africa. Unfortunately the AEB cannot support the composition of this commission.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 193: Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dithebe, S L; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P-M A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lobe, M C; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Masithela, N H; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mgidi, J S; Mkono, G D; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcawu, A N; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 82: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bekker, H J; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Cassim, M F; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Douglas, B M; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Ferreira, E T; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Hlengwa, M W; Jankielsohn, R; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; Mars, I; Mbuyazi, L R; McIntosh, G B D; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Middleton, N S; Moorcroft, E K; Mpontshane, A M; Msomi, M D; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzizi, M A; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A H; Ngubane, H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rabinowitz, R; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibiya, M S M; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Slabbert, J H; Smit, H A; Smith, P F; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Viljoen, C L; Waters, M; Zulu, N E.
ABSTENTIONS - 1: Pheko, S E M.
Required majority in terms of section 193(5)(b) of the Constitution not obtained.
Report not adopted and recommendations accordingly not agreed to.
SOUTH AFRICAN WEATHER SERVICE BILL
(Second Reading debate) The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Chairperson, may we have silence from these people here?
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Order, hon members!
The MINISTER: It is a rare moment of joy for the opposition.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon Minister. I understand the excitement in the House … [Applause] … but can we now continue with the next Order of the Day.
The MINISTER: Mr Chairperson and hon members, the South African Weather Service Bill will take the South African Weather Service into a new era, an era of better service delivery, specialised services to different clients, and extending services to all South Africans. The aim is to create a world class service which will be accessible to the majority of the people. Over the last few months the department, in its preparation for the South African Weather Service Bill, which is being introduced today, has been engaged in extensive consultations with sectors broadly representative of South African society. The Bill is a manifestation of this Government’s commitment to the goal of improving the efficiency in service delivery to all communities in South Africa. It is a fundamental objective of this Bill to transform not only the management structure of the weather service, but also the manner in which it prioritises which groups of our communities will be serviced.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon Minister! Hon members, will you please allow the Minister to deliver his speech. Will you all be quiet please. Hon Dr Nkomo, could you take your seat and allow the Minister to deliver his speech, please. Will those who are leaving the Chamber please do so peacefully.
The MINISTER: Chairperson, to this end, the Bill has several goals, which include catering for the needs of communities previously ignored or neglected, such as subsistence farmers and fishers, and extending access to the services provided by the weather service to vulnerable communities, particularly in rural areas.
Agentisation of the weather service provides us with a unique opportunity to generate revenue to sustain its operations beyond what the public purse can fund, as well as the scope for implementing a sophisticated cost- recovery operation in certain areas of activity, for example the aviation industry, and for market-related business activities in others. They have already started a number of commercial services, such as the 24-hour weather service call line. Agentisation of the weather service also provides us with an opportunity to prioritise the transformation of the ratio and gender human resource composition.
We cannot achieve our vision of service delivery with an organisation that does not represent the wider South African population. To this end, we have gone to great lengths to gear up the bureau for the changes ahead. This includes levelling the playing fields for staff from previous homeland weather services, accelerated training programmes, recognition of prior learning and experience, and a participatory and facilitated change- management process.
To this end, we have already initiated the process of recruiting the senior management of the new weather service. We will ensure that by the time the service is actually agentised at least 50% of management is black and one third women. At the same time, the behaviour, attitude and culture of staff in the weather service are going through the necessary changes. I would like to thank the staff and the unions for their involvement in making this process a success.
Until now, our people have not been able fully to access weather information and services. Conclusions drawn from worldwide research show that the poorest communities are 500 times more likely to be adversely affected by weather-related disasters than the more affluent. With the more efficient weather service, working in close co-operation with provincial disaster- management structures, we will be better prepared as a country to deal with natural disasters and ensure prompt, preventative and urgent action.
The Bill provides for two distinct services, namely the public good services, which will be funded by Government and commercial services, in respect of which the user-pays principle will apply. The public good services include, inter alia, include weather and climatic forecasting, a weather disaster warning system for the public good, services to subsistence farmers and fisheries, the provision of information and advice to Government, meeting regional and international treaty and agreement obligations, maintaining a national metereological library, technical and scientific training in metereology, and, finally, undertaking research to improve services.
The public good services of the weather service are large, and will always require some level of funding by Government. This is why we do not support a privatised national weather bureau. The SA Weather Service must provide an equal service to all South Africans and, to enable this, the Government’s support is essential.
Commercial services, on the other hand, include the provision of specialised weather forecasting and climate information services; the provision of services to the maritime industry that are not included in international obligations; the provision of aviation metereological services; weather and climate-related publications; metereological consultations, including advice to the legal and insurance industries; contracted weather and climate-related research; research to improve commercial services; the dissemination of weather and climate information; the manufacturing and selling of metereological equipment to state departments and users from the private sector; the provision of specialised services to the media; and, finally, the provision of commercial services to state departments on an ad hoc basis.
I believe that this Bill sets a new standard for the restructuring of Government agencies by integrating the processes of transformation, commercialisation and agentisation. In addition, by clearly distinguishing the public good services from the commercial services, we are ensuring that all South Africans will get a better service at the end of the day.
In passing this Bill, Parliament will truly have laid the basis for South Africa’s weather service to be amongst the best in the world and to play its part in the reconstruction and development of our country. [Applause.]
Mr P A C HENDRICKSE: Mr Chairperson, it is a pleasure to support this Bill this afternoon. This Bill was passed, once again, with the unanimous support of every party in that committee. It was unanimous as a result of extensive discussions and debate in the committee. We went through it clause by clause, item by item. This is not something new for this committee. Last year we also passed two Bills unanimously - the Marine Living Resources Amendment Bill and the Tourism Amendment Bill.
The reason I am mentioning some of these things is in reaction to a newspaper article the other day which said: ``Complete work first, high- flying MPs told.’’ It referred to -
the environmental affairs and tourism committee, which was the second highest on the list of MPs who travelled overseas most frequently last year. It has spent the past eight months considering the SA Weather Service Bill.
This creates the impression that this committee is not doing its work. I think the House needs to know that this committee, first of all, deals with tourism, environmental affairs and fishing. It deals with a whole range of international treaties, which include at least eight under marine and coastal management, seven under the climate change convention, four under tourism, seven under environmental quality and protection, 10 under biodiversity and cultural heritage and a number of Antarctica-related treaties. [Interjections.] Mr Chairperson, could the hon Mike Ellis please lower his voice a little.
These are about 40 of the treaties that this committee deals with. So, travelling to international conventions is part of the work of this committee. We also held, because of the amount of work on the committee, hearings on medical waste, asbestos, genetically modified organisms, tourism in the African Century, plastic bags and the Walker Bay salmon fishing project.
So, it is clear that the newspaper article is very misleading when it comes to this committee. [Interjections.]
Mr Chairperson, could you please protect me from the opposition members, Mr Henderson in particular?
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! You are protected.
Mr P A C HENDRICKSE: As I have said, we painstakingly went through item by item, clause by clause, almost word by word. Amongst others, we received 18 submissions - two from trade unions, namely Nehawu and the PSA, eight from the Government, four from parastatals and at least five from organisations which made oral submissions to us.
As a result of all these interviews that we had and at the instigation of the portfolio committee, a transformation workshop was set up at the end of last year, which led to an overarching human resource development committee. This committee has, in turn, been divided into three subcommittees, ie the employment committee, the mentoring committee and the training committee. Each will have two members from Nehawu, two from the PSA and two from management. The Employment Equity Committee’s primary function is to implement provisions of the Employment Equity Act.
As the Minister has also mentioned, this department has inherited a lot of problems from the past. A disproportionate number of meteorologists working for the department are white men. Apart from the obvious reasons for this state of affairs, it is a fact that in the past meteorologists had to complete a four year BSc degree in meteorology, which was offered by the University of Pretoria. And we know what race qualified for admission in the past! Given this monopoly and the racist policies of the past, it made it impossible for the majority of black people in South Africa to acquire this qualification. As a result, the department has, since 1998, developed a programme to provide bursaries for black employees of the weather bureau to do an honours degree in meteorology at the University of Pretoria. The majority of participants in this programme have been absorbed into the weather service over the last three years.
The number of people who have received bursaries are 37 males and 9 females. We are also told that a lot of females are being snapped by the private sector, and we hope that through agentisation we will be able to offer competitive packages and bring more women into this service. We also want to hold the director-general to his commitment that before agentisation is in place, 50% of the upper management of this service will be black, with at least one-third being women.
We are glad that the Minister did emphasise here today the department’s commitment to the provision of public good services as specified in Schedule 1 of the Bill free of charge. The committee was particularly concerned about the provision of services to subsistence farmers and fishers, who in the past have been neglected by this service. We are once again reassured by the Minister’s statement and the stated commitment of the Bill to extend, develop and improve the quality of service to our people.
The racial composition at the moment - I want to spell this out to the opposition, because I know they do not like to hear about the past - is 24% black and 16% female. [Interjections.] We need to transform this, hopefully within this course of year, to at least 50% black and one third women. [Interjections.] Thank you, very much. I am so glad that the opposition, for once, is coming to its senses. I am not referring to those members of the committee from the opposition who are always sensible.
On behalf of the chairperson, I want to thank all members of the committee for the spirit of camaraderie with which we have dealt with this, and those who made submissions, in particular Nehawu and later the PSA, for their inputs into this whole process. We also want to thank those journalists who have been conscientiously covering the important work of this committee. Not everyone will be happy with the results of this Bill, but we have to try to accommodate and address the concerns of everyone who has interacted with us.
I am told, on a lighter note, that from now on members will be able to telephone the Weather Bureau and order good weather for appropriate events. On behalf of the committee, I also want to thank the chairperson for the way in which she has conducted the committee meetings. [Applause.]
Ms J A SEMPLE: Mr Chairperson, the main aim of the Bill is to change the Weather Bureau from its current form as part of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism into an agent to be known as the S A Weather Service.
The department has gone to great lengths to assure all concerned that the new agent is still a statutory body, which will remain an asset fully owned by the state with the provision to raise funds. [Interjections.]
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Happy birthday.
Ms J A SEMPLE: Thank you. [Laughter.] The Bill should have been passed by Parliament last year, and, in fact, the portfolio committee has been under great pressure to expedite the Bill as quickly as possible. It was originally envisaged that the service would be up and running by April 2001.
However, it was clear from the outset that labour issues regarding transformation within the bureau and the transfer of staff to the new service had not been dealt with before the Bill came to the portfolio committee. The Bill was virtually hijacked by the unions involved and, at one stage, it appeared that the whole process, the department and, indeed, the portfolio committee would be held to ransom by organised labour.
All proceedings were put on hold until a transformation workshop had been held. Certainly, there were issues of concern raised by current employees regarding job security, training and representivity. One could argue that transformation could take place parallel to the agentisation process, but then it was not actually guaranteed that this would happen.
A similar situation is taking place right now with the public listing of the Airports Company Limited being delayed, supposedly until transformation has been accomplished and more black empowerment companies have been taken on board. This House must know that the portfolio committee bent over backwards to accommodate the concerns of organised labour.
Although the Bill does not provide for full privatisation, it does give the new agent the right to charge market-related fees for its services in relation to the private sector. The commercialisation aspect also means it can now diversify its product, thereby generating more revenue to cross- subsidise public good services for the general benefit of the South African population, especially for groups such as subsistence farmers and fisheries.
The core activities of the service are and always should be to provide weather and climate services to all South Africans, which will be funded by the state. However, the user-pays principle for the provision of commercial services will also allow for economic viability. Great concern was raised, particularly by the aviation industry, that these costs could steadily rise to an unacceptable level if the service was allowed to make a profit.
The Airports Company was used as an example, which started off by making a few thousand rands profit and is now budgeting for millions of rands. These costs are in turn passed on to the consumer, notably in the form of high cost of internal flights. The prices charged by the weather service, will be determined by the regulatory committee, which will ensure that the weather service does not abuse its position.
In order for the weather service to fulfil its international obligations in the gathering of meteorological and climatic observational data over South Africa and surrounding oceans, it is necessary to invest millions of rands in expensive equipment.
Clearly, in a developing county such as ours, this type of funding is not easily available from the state coffers, hence the need to privatise in some form. However, as the consultants’ report to the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology - published in 1998 - points out, and I quote:
The bureau must never be allowed to become an organisation driven by the frenzy to make money for its survival and to provide a service only to the rich and those who are able to pay. It must provide an equal service to all South Africans and it is essential that it be supported by Government to do this in the public interest.
I believe that the South African Weather Service Bill accomplishes this aim. The DP supports this Bill.
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Chairperson, whilst we were dealing with the South African Weather Service Bill at committee stage, we were worried about three words that were dealt with. These words were privatisation, agentisation and commercialisation. There was so much debate on these issues that at the end it was clearly spelt out that the focus would not be on privatisation only, although this was supported, but would be on agentisation and commercialisation of this service.
The weather and the climate are changing. Every year we witness major natural disasters. Mozambique has now had major floods in two successive years. Island states are concerned about the rising levels of the sea. The El Ni[n]o effect means drought for Southern Africa. There have been disasters in KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape, the Northern Province and in some other provinces as well.
We support the regional offices, as we will now be able to find out from nearby regional offices what the weather will be like. This will prevent people’s homes from being destroyed by floods. What does all this mean? It tells us that the weather must be closely monitored. We need a world class weather service. Last year in the Storms River a group was taken river rafting. Rain in the catchment area swept into the gorge and many people were drowned. The safety of air passengers is very important. Passengers, cars, boats and trucks need proper information and warnings. These are the day-to-day requirements.
There is also the greater need for the ongoing collection of reliable data. This is essential for those of us living today and for future generations. After collecting day-to-day data, we can begin to evaluate what is happening to our climate. We all depend on water for food. It is common cause that water is becoming increasingly scarcer. The report on the major dams of the world indicates that many of these dams are silting, and that floods are becoming worse. Therefore, if we do not have proper information, we could run short of water in the future.
Without water there would be no life and the future would be compromised. Therefore, we need to ensure that we know what is happening at the level of weather and climate. We also recommend that this Bill focus on the water resource management industry, the agricultural industry and the media. This may include radio, television and even local newspapers, so as to inform our communities. They should also be informed about disaster management, the aviation industry, marine life, the legal profession, insurance industries and any other weather- sensitive industry. Our disadvantaged communities will be well informed in advance, before they experience all these disasters.
Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, Mr Minister and colleagues I think the ANC can thank their lucky stars that we are not going to vote on this Bill today. [Interjections.]
The DA supports the South African Weather Service Bill mainly for two reasons. [Interjections.] I know the Minister does not fully agree, but agentising the weather bureau is at least the first step in the right direction of a privatised weather service. The DA will support all efforts to reduce the size of the public sector and we urge the Government to vigorously step up its efforts to prioritise wherever possible. Secondly, there seems to be a genuine effort by the department to implement balanced affirmative action in such a way that standards and merit are not compromised. If the agency fails in this regard, it will obviously face very serious consequences.
The one aspect of the Bill that is worrying is the danger that the agency might be tempted to charge exorbitant fees. This could have the effect that the weather service might price itself out of the market. As a result of escalating costs, foreign airlines might further reduce their flights to South Africa. South Africa needs every single tourist, and we must take care not to damage this very important industry.
During the initial negotiations in April 2000, the mutual understanding was that the weather service would not be profit- driven. This has now substantially changed and the agency will now seek real profit. The temptation in the private sector is always to maximise profit, and there is thus a danger of charging excessive fees if we allow the weather service to operate in a monopolistic environment.
As far as affirmative action is concerned, the DA fully supports restructuring, provided that effective delivery of services is maintained and merit is not discarded. It is an indisputable fact that for decades many white South Africans benefited largely from affirmative action based on racial discrimination. This was wrong, and it will be wrong if the ANC repeats these mistakes.
It is also wrong to now see all restructuring as racist and we should also balance affirmative action with clear timeframes and sunset clauses. There are many thousands of people adversely affected by affirmative action, and obviously we feel sorry for them and their families. It is fortunately also true that there are many exciting and rewarding opportunities in the private sector waiting for innovative, hard-working South Africans.
Lastly, the success of the weather service will depend largely on the regulating committee and we urge the Minister to take great care when he appoints the members of this committee. [Applause.] Prof L M MBADI: Chairperson, Ministers and colleagues, the South African Weather Service Bill before us seeks to provide for the rendering of a national meteorological service for the Republic of South Africa and, for this purpose, to provide for the establishment of the South African Weather Service. The UDM supports this Bill.
The primary objective of this Bill is to provide a meteorological service which will promote the safety of life, property and economic development of all South Africans by means of the preparation of weather and climate advice, information, weather forecasts and weather warnings. This primary objective is of great significance as it also stands to benefit the deep rural areas whose livelihood is connected to the land. The rural client or customer will use the specialised service for economic gain and benefit.
The Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism, during its deliberations on the Bill, invited all stakeholders and affected organised labour to make inputs. At one stage, there were such differences between Nehawu and the department that the committee sent them back to settle their differences. In subsequent meetings, however, it became clear that there was no finality of agreement. Nehawu still argued that the Bill was in conflict with decisions that were signed by Government on the restructuring of the Public Service. They further argued that the Bill is in conflict with the CCMA rulings of which the Government is a signatory. Nehawu, in addition, argued that the nature of agentisation being proposed in the Bill was commercialisation of the SAWB and that they would not agree with it. On the other hand, the department felt that Nehawu negotiated in bad faith.
It must be pointed out that the portfolio committee is not a dispute- resolution forum. Its primary function is oversight and legislation. In its consideration of the Bill, it was sensitive to the concerns of all interested parties and it tried to accommodate them. The dispute, however, will have to be sorted out by the department and Nehawu. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, it is particularly fitting that we consider the agentisation of the weather bureau in Cape Town, which is traditionally known by many sailors as the Cape of Storms. The crucial role that the bureau has played and will continue to play in providing weather forecasts and services for various sectors, such as the maritime and aviation sectors, cannot be overemphasised.
The bureau must, furthermore, ensure that the majority of the population benefits from its services. In this regard, one need only recall of the devastating floods suffered in the Southern African region last year and, to a lesser extent, this year, and the other local natural disasters, such as the Manenberg storm. One trusts that the agentisation of the weather bureau will enable it to further develop its capacity to reduce the impact of weather-related natural disasters, as is contemplated in Schedule 1 of the Bill. This is also particularly relevant for maritime safety and the fragile ecosystem of our very long coastline, which can be severely threatened by the so-called rust buckets sailing passing our coast.
During deliberations on the Bill, the Airlines Association was concerned that its member airlines would be charged excessive user charges for weather reports. It is important that their concerns should be seriously considered when user charges are determined, as these charges will no doubt be passed on to the consumer. I would also encourage the hon the Minister to take up the offer of the Airlines Association to assist with the drafting of the regulations, particularly in the light of their experience relating to regulatory procedures applicable to the Airports Company South Africa.
The ACDP supports this Bill and wishes the weather service and Mr Schulze fair and good weather during the transitional phase, particularly as it embarks upon its process of transformation. We would also like to thank the chairperson of the portfolio committee, the hon Gwen Mahlangu - in her absence - for being so gracious, particularly with those of us who are lawyers, and persevering until we attained consensus on the Bill. [Applause.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, the South African Weather Service Bill is one piece of legislation which everyone is looking forward to, regardless of their status in life or on which side of the political line they stand. Every single citizen wants to know what the weather has in store for him or her every day.
The SA Weather Service is being established, among other things, to provide public good services and commercial services to all South Africans and to ensure the ongoing collection of meteorological data over South Africa and surrounding southern oceans for use by current and future generations. This is such a service that, in the long term, it will enable the people of this country to get to know the climate of our country.
The SA Weather Service will operate under the aegis of the board, which will be representative of all people in our country. One strong point in the composition of the board is that a senior official of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism will serve on it. This will enable the director-general to supervise the proceedings of the board and spot any indiscretion early on, so that action may be taken before much harm is done.
Members of the board will be experts in their fields and will be appointed in their personal capacities from a cross section of fields of interest, such as water resource management, agriculture, the media, both printed and electronic, the legal profession and the insurance industry. As the new board will replace the existing chief directorate of the department, no employee will be adversely affected by the transfer to the new service. It is hoped that officers currently manning the weather stations in the provinces will be given meaningful and more responsible assignments.
Clause 18(5) states that any proceedings against any person which were instituted immediately before such a person’s transfer, must be disposed of as if this Act had not been enacted. There should be no amnesty because of this new dispensation.
In conclusion, may the board bear in mind that the President, in his state of the nation address, promised that this country’s skyways would be open to foreign flights …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.
Mr I S MFUNDISI:
The UCDP supports the Bill.
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, because we are dealing here with a good and thorough Bill, I had initially decided not to take part in this debate. But, hon Chair, you know me as a kind-hearted man, and as the members of the ANC look so depressed today after their failure to get the report on the Gender Commission approved, I thought that it might cheer them up a little bit if I stated here publicly that the AEB supports the South African Weather Service Bill. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mrs J CHALMERS: Well, I must say that makes me feel much better.
Chairperson, hon Ministers, members of this House, it is a fact that with all humankind’s enormous advances in the field of technology, there is a global process over which we have little, indeed very often no, control. I speak here of something which in many ways governs the way we dress, the way we build our homes, the crops we grow - in fact, how we manage our lives - and that factor is the weather. This has gone on since time immemorial. We still have floods, droughts, hurricanes and snowstorms; we lose ships at sea and crops from hailstorms.
In many ways we are still at the mercy of the elements, but far less so than our ancestors and there is one reason for this. This is because whilst we cannot control the weather, we can manage our lives and responses to it in a way that puts our ships, our planes, our crops, our homes, indeed our very lives, at less risk. We do this by paying daily attention to the process called weather forecasting.
South Africa is widely respected internationally for its technical knowledge and expertise in the field of meteorology. The Weather Bureau, as it has been known up to now, has provided a vital service to the public. But times change and it has become clear that the service we provide has a value that is commercially extremely viable, a fact that many countries in the world recognised many years ago when they turned their services into viable profitable businesses.
This Bill is a transformational one. In many ways it is a groundbreaking piece of legislation. In it we attempt, in a very proactive way, to introduce a whole new dynamic into the process of providing a meteorological service for all South Africans, in addition to fulfilling our Government’s weather-related international obligations. It is easy to take for granted the amount of behind-the-scenes planning, knowledge, years of scientific research and technological expertise that go into the nightly TV weather forecast. For us, as ordinary citizens, this is a useful service that helps us decide whether we should take an umbrella to work. However, for the farmer, the sailor and the pilot, it could be a matter of their very survival, which is why we took the creation of this Bill, as Mrs Semple has said, very seriously indeed, not only to enable South Africa to go down the route of commercialisation through agentisation of its weather service but also to do so in a way that, in accordance with this Government’s policy of transforming and empowering our society, makes the management of this service more truly representative of its population.
We were interested, but not surprised, to note that the upper echelons of management in the old South African Weather Bureau were held, pretty much exclusively, by white men. This male domination is not exclusive to South Africa. A recent report from the secretariat of the World Meteorological Organisation, based in Geneva, Switzerland, shows that it includes 139 women and 120 men, which might suggest gender equity within the organisation. But on closer inspection women comprise only 20% of the professional staff and 80% of the general service staff. My guess is that that includes the cleaners and teamakers.
At the Beijing conference in 1995 there was recognition of the crucial role of women in sustainable development and a strong recommendation for action to be taken by governments as well as nongovernmental and international organisations, to encourage the advancement of women in all walks of life. The WMO noted in a statement to the Beijing conference that the professions of meteorology and hydrology were still overwhelmingly male dominated. It expressed the need to strengthen the capacities of women to manage and apply science-based knowledge and technology, and for women to consider a career in these disciplines. I would hope that the changing environment in the new South African Weather Service will enable this to happen.
In South Africa the top management is still 100% male and over 80% white - a situation that is unacceptable - and concrete, urgent steps are being taken to address that situation by the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. This includes recruitment and assistance to employees to upgrade their skills and their academic qualifications, in order to enable them to reach the top in this very specialised and vitally necessary profession.
This is not a process that happens overnight. It requires bold and dynamic strategies, connected to legislative requirements and changing business needs. It also requires a recognition of the diversity of our society to enable us to build a management body where trust between members is vital to the creation of such a necessary and responsible body.
Finally, I would like to say that the Bill that is before the House is truly an exciting one. Finalising it was not a straightforward process. It will represent a the moulding of a really quite different philosophy that requires give and take between various stakeholders and players, to bring South Africa into the modern world of commercialised meteorology. At the same time, it has broadened its scope to bring a service to those previously unable to access it.
Transformation is not an easy process, but the legislative framework to make it a reality in the meteorological services has been put before hon members today in the form of the South African Weather Service Bill. We give it our fullest support. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! We are calling upon the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. It seems that the House is giving you a projection of fair weather, except, I think, for the Minister in the Presidency, who, by his gestures, seems to have some doubts. So I think when you address the House, you should address him also.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Mr Chairperson and my colleague, hon Essop Pahad, may I just say that I thank the House for the support. This is one more important step in the modernisation of the South African state.
The only aspect that I would like to respond to, is the comments the hon Le Roux has made. He said that he would have preferred privatisation and that this agentisation should actually be seen as a first step towards privatisation. And he correctly said that I disagreed with that view.
I think that anybody who suggests that a vitally, important strategic function such as that performed by the South Africa Weather Service should be purely in private hands, run by profiteers, really does not understand the work of the state and the responsibility of the state to the nation and the rest of the world. I think it would be a main disaster if, it becomes a private company and one day one finds that, for economic reasons they close the company down. That would be quite a serious matter.
What I find very strange, especially because the hon member purported to speak on behalf of the DA, was that on the one hand he advocated privatisation and, on the other hand, he then talked about the dangers of overcharging the airlines and that this would put them out of business. He then urged me to appoint the regulator very quickly, but earlier on he spoke about deregulation. So, honestly, I think the hon member needs to give a bit more thought to what he is talking about, because it really did not make a great deal of sense, I must say.
I would like to express my gratitude to members of the portfolio committee. As members heard, they spent many, many hour deliberating, particularly the chairperson, the hon Gwen Mahlangu, who is not with us today. I would also like to thank the director-general and members of the department, some of whom are present here with us, who have done a marvellous job with the weather bureau, as it is, and who have done a marvellous job in conceptualising the modernisation of the weather bureau.
In particular I would like to thank Mr Gerhard Schulze, who has done a marvellous job as far as this is concerned, Mr Nadison, who is also here and who has assisted in the change of the process, Mr Freddy Mashamba, and Tlharesang Mkhwanazi, who helped us in the last leg of this matter. I think that it is really a team that one can be quite confident will take us into the future in a manner which is very responsible.
Before I sit down, may I beg the Chairperson’s indulgence just to say that while we are talking about the technical restructuring of the weather bureau, there is a matter of major concern, that should worry all of us in the House, including the hon Essop Pahad, namely the breakdown in the developed world on the question of climate change. We all know that the hon Mbuyazi spoke about the disasters that have been striking Southern Africa recently. Now, for many years, the world has been trying to do something about reducing the emissions of green-house-gases, which create a green-house effect around the globe.
What this really means is that, because of the high levels of these emissions, there is a kind of veil surrounding the globe so that when the sun’s rays enter the earth’s atmosphere, they do not leave as they normally would. A number of the subelements of the sun’s rays remain within the atmosphere, which creates a global warming system. The biggest polluter is, of course, the United States of America followed by Europe and Japan. The developed world is unable to agree on a process towards not just reducing, but also, at least, controlling the emission of green-house-gases as such. Those negotiations have virtually broken down.
I must say, for those of us in the developed world, who are not a party to polluting the globe, this is a matter of grave concern. I do hope that all of us here are following some of these debates that are going on, and will express concern wherever we can, because I think we need to get the big polluters of the world to really come to their senses. They are not only polluting their own countries, but they are polluting the atmosphere as a whole and in another few decades the consequences - particularly, as the hon Mbuyazi has said, for the smaller island nations - could be disastrous. There is concern that some of these islands could be completely under water within a few decades.
I would like to register our own deep concern on this matter. I think I can say with confidence that the South African Government urges the developed nations to get their act together. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL
(Consideration of Bill, as amended by NCOP, and of Report thereon)
There was no debate.
Report adopted and Bill agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND
CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT - RSA/CANADA EXTRADITION TREATY
There was no debate.
Report adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT - RSA/CANADA MUTUAL LEGAL ASSISTANCE TREATY
There was no debate.
Report adopted.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, since we do not want a green-house effect in this House itself, we will ensure that the affairs of the House are concluded early.
The House adjourned at 15:44. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
The Assembly on 29 March 2001 did not obtain the required majority to
approve the recommendations contained in the report of the Ad Hoc
Committee on Filling of Vacancies on Commission for Gender Equality. As
it is a constitutional requirement that the Assembly make such
recommendations, the recommendations are referred back to the ad hoc
committee for further consideration and report. The committee must
report to the House by not later than 4 April 2001.
- The Speaker:
Bill passed by National Assembly on 29 March 2001: To be submitted to
President of the Republic for assent:
Division of Revenue Bill [B 11D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 76).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly:
Papers:
- The Speaker:
Correspondence, as submitted by the Deputy President and Leader of
Government Business, between the President of the Republic and Mr
Stuart McIntyre, Executive Director of BAE Systems, on the contractual
performance of BAE Systems to date on the Strategic Defence Procurement
Package.
(1) Statement from Mr Stuart McIntyre, Executive Director of BAE
Systems, South Africa to the President of the Republic:
Strategic Defence Procurement
BAE SYSTEM - Contractual Performance to date
Introduction
Since first entering the bidding phase to supply the SA National
Defence Force with equipment under the Government's strategic arms
package, BAE SYSTEMS has very deliberately concentrated on
achieving an agreement which would work for all sides. This
included ensuring that significant investments in and purchases
from South Africa's civilian and military industries would be made
in return for an important order for two of our best products, the
Hawk advanced jet trainer, and the Saab Gripen 4th generation
fighter.
Our focus has been on delivering our obligations under the
contracts we signed in December 1999. We feel it is now the right
time to summarise our achievements since then. We do so in the
interests of transparency, deepening cooperation, and greater
clarity.
Defence Context
The Defence Contracts, signed in December 1999, were the
culmination of a strategic process initiated following the
democratic elections in 1994. In 1995, the Government of the
National Unity issued a White Paper on Defence that set out a
vision for a much reduced but technologically capable defence
force. This force was to be sized to enable South Africa to
fulfill an appropriate regional role while protecting its
sovereignty and underpinning economic stability. Parliament
endorsed this White Paper.
The Defence Review that followed, completed in 1997, evaluated the
existing SANDF against the vision of the White Paper. Participants
form government, academia, the non-governmental sector, and the
media ensured the Defence Review was the most widely discussed
defence policy document ever produced in South Africa.
Alongside many other important findings, it established that a
number of major systems would be needed to replace obsolete
equipment dating from the 1960s and earlier. Out of these needs
was borne the strategic defence procurement package. These
transparent, consultative and democratic processes gave considered
answers as to why the equipment is needed.
Industrial Participation
An important aspect of the strategic defence procurement was the
need to maximize the economic inflows that could be leveraged
through civilian and defence industrial participation (IP).
Besides creating jobs in forward-looking sectors, this would help
reduce the pressure on the fiscus.
Although we are still in the early stages, the IP programmes have
come in for criticism notable for its generations. Among these is
the contention that offset programmes are no longer favoured
internationally. Yet while just 10 countries had statutory offset
policies in 1979, more than 100 countries have them in place
today. Offsets are practiced around the world as a method of
retaining strategic technologies, achieving specific economic
goals, and leveraging the maximum national benefit and
reinvestment from the government spending. Countries which have
statutory offset policies include Canada, Australia, the UK,
Switzerland, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Denmark, Sweden, Finland,
Germany, Spain, Greece, Oman, Israel, and the Netherlands.
The offset policy approved by South Africa's Parliament in 1997
not only adopted the most successful elements of the programmes
practiced internationally, but also, in its application to the
strategic defence procurement, set new standards. Government
should and has been applauded internationally for this
achievement.
Defence Industrial Participation
Less than a year after the contracts became effective, BAE SYSTEMS
has met every technical and performance milestone necessary thus
far. On Defence Industrial Participation we have already let
contracts directly or indirectly to the following South African
firms:
. Denel Aviation (aerostructures design and manufacturing,
Gripen, Hawk, Eurofighter, Airbus, Avro RJ and RJX aircraft
programmes);
. Comau-Aims (5 axis machining - Gripen aerostructure);
. Grintek (communication systems for Gripen);
. AMS (health and usage monitoring systems);
. ATE (integrated avionics suite Hawk);
. Tellumat (electronic subsystems)
Another of these activities involves a two-year skills transfer
and development programme, including the secondment of about 30
Denel engineers (mostly previously disadvantaged graduates) and
their families to Saab in Sweden to become familiar with state-of-
the-art technology and industrial processes.
In total these activities will achieve US$ 829 million of our US$
1.5 billion defence industrial participation obligation, 55% of
the total.
National Industrial Participation
On National Industrial Participation (NIP), BAE SYSTEMS-Saab's
joint NIP office is currently working on 33 proposals. Of these,
14 have been submitted to the Department of Trade and Industry.
These are in various phases of maturity ranging from story-board
concept to fully approved and implemented projects. Of the 33, 13
are at concept phase and 11 are fully developed project
applications with supporting business plans. Of 11, four are
approved in principle by the DTI and will be launched within 12
months and 9 projects have been launched to date. These include:
. ABB (export of South African-manufactured power generation
components);
. Volvo (procurement of automotive components);
. Atlas Copco (export of mining equipment components);
. DNA Sherwood (procurement of various items for BAE SYSTEMS,
Saab and their suppliers;
. Automotive components (procurement of automotive components for
European component suppliers);
. MKMVA Afri-business training and business centre at Orange
Farm.
At present, the nine implanted projects have been evaluated by the
Department of Trade and Industry as being worth US$2.9 billion
against our NIP target of US$7.2 billion in new economic benefit
to South Africa by 2011 or 40% of our target.
Performance Guarantees
The penalties for non-performance on the industrial participation
commitments are twice the international norm. Our contract does
not permit us to elect to pay penalties in lieu of delivering IP.
Delivery is not a matter of choice and we would not have deployed
the substantial resources we have, were we not fully committed to
delivery.
Deliberate non-performance in South Africa's high-profile IP
programme would impact extremely negatively on the new business we
are pursuing worldwide. Like most successful international
companies, we trade on our iQntegrity, reputation and good name.
All of these are at stake and will always be the major incentive
behind our performance.
Subcontracting
As a prime contractor, we are responsible for the subcontracting
within our programmes. All subcontracting by BAE SYSTEMS is
subject to competitive tendering or competitively benchmarked
negotiation to achieve cost, risk and technical parameters. All of
the contracts we have placed with South African industry under our
DIP programme are subject to these competitive rules. This is a
process that we regard as international best practice. We apply it
to all our business everywhere. As a company we are committed to
the success and integrity of all aspects of the package. We
welcome the investigations into allegations concerning placements
of the subcontracts. We are sure it will vindicate the process in
the eyes of the public.
Pricing
The prices of the Hawk and Gripen are set in 1999 US dollars. The
total package of Hawk and Gripen including spares provisioning,
training and other elements is priced at US$2.2 billion. Claims
that we offered Gripen to Brazil for a third less than to South
Africa are incorrect. The particularly attractive price achieved
by South Africa reflects the country's status as launch export
customer and the involvement of South Africa as a significant
manufacturing partner on the Gripen programme. It is unlikely to
be repeated elsewhere.
Lead-In Fighter Trainer Selection
In choosing Gripen, a supersonic 4th generation highly agile swing-
role fighter. South Africa established a high entry skill level
requirement for its trainee pilots. To bridge the gap from initial
training to the new fighter, it was important to find a jet
trainer capable of training pilots to a sufficient standard before
graduation to the front line. The Hawk was chosen in order to
achieve this. Cheaper alternative would not have equipped pilots
sufficiently to fly the Gripen effectively.
Conclusions
BAE SYSTEMS wholly supports the South African government's
investigations into the defence procurement as they will eradicate
the misconceptions and misinformation dominating discussion today.
In the meantime, we will continue to focus on the important task
of delivering on our contractual obligations. Over the next years
we will add further projects of us on time and in full as
contracted.
Stuart McIntyre
Executive Director - South Africa
BAE SYSTEMS
(2) Letter from the President of the Republic to Mr Stuart McIntyre,
Executive Director of BAE Systems, South Africa:
March 12, 2001
Dear Mr McIntyre
Thank you very much for your letter of 25 February 2001 and the
attached statement.
I have arranged for the statement to be passed on to the three
investigation units, viz, the Auditor General, the Public
Protector and the National Director of Public Prosecutions, as
well as our Leader of Government Business.
The latter will ensure that the statement is forwarded to the
Speaker of the National Assembly.
We will similarly inform the members of our International
Investment Council who are, as you know, eminent international
corporate leaders.
It is most unfortunate that so many in our country seem to have
been taken in by mischievous efforts aimed, among other things, at
besmirching the reputations of our Government as well as major
international corporations such as BAE Systems, and achieving the
termination of contracts that have been properly and legally
entered into.
In the light of this situation, all of us have an obligation to
ensure that we tell the truth as we know it, which your statement
does in a comprehensive manner.
In this context, I am pleased that you are available to discuss
the matters raised in your statement, confirming your own
commitment to the transparency we need to defeat the evil
intentions of those who have decided to depend on falsifications
in order to achieve objectives.
We will continue to work with you as you focus on the important
task of delivering on your contractual obligations, as you aptly
put it.
We are convinced that you will succeed in this regard.
Yours sincerely
THABO MBEKI
Mr Stuart McIntyre
Executive Director
BAE Systems
South Africa
cc Hon Jacob Zuma, Leader of Government Business
The Auditor General
The Public Protector
The National Director of Public Prosecutions
Referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and to the
Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry.