WEDNESDAY, 23 MAY 2001 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr N B FIHLA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Comrade Allan Boesak was released on parole yesterday; (2) acknowledges the role played by Comrade Allan Boesak in the fight against apartheid; and

(3) expresses the hope that Comrade Allan Boesak will continue to make a contribution towards building a united nation and working towards a better life for all our people.

Mr K M ANDREW: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes the acknowledgement by the ANC President that many people in the ANC use the organisation only to promote their own career opportunities;

(2) expresses its concern at the consequences for South Africa of ANC members placing self-interest first, rather than seeing public office as a chance to serve all South Africans and, in particular, the interests of the poor and disadvantaged; and

(3) nevertheless reaffirms its commitment to the democratic tradition that national, provincial and local leaders should be chosen by the relevant party structures or the relevant legislatures, as the case may be, and not be imposed on the people by party bosses dictating deployments from their remote head offices.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) condemns the police drinking spree that was witnessed by the Gauteng MEC for safety and community liaison when she made a round of surprise visits to police stations in Soweto and Eldorado Park;

(2) also condemns the private use of police vehicles by police station heads, especially during weekends when crime is rife; and

(3) appeals to all MECs charged with security to take action against this culture of recklessness when innocent citizens are victimised by criminals.

Mr N M NENE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the National Remuneration Guide published by Deloitte and Touche Human Capital Corporation indicates that white men are still paid more than any other group of employees at the same level, and that men are still paid more than women for doing the same job;

(2) calls on all employers to abide by the requirements of the Employment Equity Act;

(3) condemns the attempts by the opposition to paint a false picture of whites as being unfairly disadvantaged by transformatory legislation; and

(4) deplores the opposition agenda to undermine the efforts of this Government to introduce fairness and equal opportunity into the workplace.

[Applause.]

Mrs M E OLCKERS: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  according to a recent study of the Centre for Statistical
       Studies, South Africa has the highest rate of recorded crime by
       global standards;


   (b)  the study has uncovered 60% to 70% more crime than reflected in
       the official statistics; and


   (c)  estimates for the period January to May 2000 conclude that there
       were 113 more crimes per 10 000 people, compared to the same
       period in 1999;

(2) further notes the glaring shortages of police officers, adding to the burden of overworked policemen and women; and

(3) calls on the -

   (a)  Minister to stop hiding behind the moratorium to cover up his
       own inability to reduce crime; and


   (b)  Government to perform its duty and to protect the people of
       South Africa.

Dr G W KOORNHOF: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern the ongoing dispute between the hon Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, and the hon Speaker;

(2) further notes the disturbing claims by the Chairperson of Scopa that the Speaker, in his opinion, did not adequately protect the committee by ignoring the attacks launched by various members of the executive on the work and intentions of the committee, nothwithstanding the constitutional questions these claims raise;

(3) recognises that such claims, if proved true, will have far-reaching implications not only for Parliament, but for the country as a whole; and

(4) calls on -

   (a)  the House to take a decision regarding these claims; and


   (b)  the executive to treat Parliament with the dignity and respect
       it deserves.

Ms L M T XINGWANA: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the gruesome find of a half-naked teenage girl on Monday morning at Eden Park on the East Rand;

(2) further notes that a gang of four or five men is on the loose in the area;

(3) believes that this gang is probably responsible for the rape, abduction and killing of young girls since March this year;

(4) further believes that wanton rape and violence against young girls in particular should be dealt with firmly;

(5) extends its condolences to the families of the victims; and

(6) calls on the community of Eden Park to be vigilant, and the police to bring the culprits to book.

[Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC: That the House -

(1) notes that Lesotho has been elected as the Chair of SADC Security;

(2) further notes that Lesotho now has to lead the Southern African Development Community’s inter-state Defence and Security Committee;

(3) appreciates SADC’s practice of equality of member states among themselves, noting that Lesotho is one of the smallest member states in Southern Africa; and

(4) congratulates the new Chair of SADC Security and wishes Lesotho every success in its SADC position and leadership.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the miraculous changes that Joanna Flanders-Thomas has brought about in the lives of hardened criminals in the numbers-gangs in South African prisons;

(2) calls on the Government to spend less money on fruitless overseas visits by members of Government and rather to channel it towards the training of more officials like Joanna Flanders-Thomas, whom Parliament must commend for the dedicated way in which she has performed her task in the Department of Correctional Services; and

(3) requests the SABC to give more coverage to people like Joanna Flanders-Thomas, as they did in last night’s Special Assignment programme, instead of making propaganda for a parolee like Allan Boesak.

Ms M M RAMAKABA-LESIEA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that business is moving back into the centre of South Africa’s major cities, with Johannesburg and Cape Town enjoying new investment in their central business districts;

(2) recognises that the decisions of Nedcor and Pick ‘n Pay to invest in the Cape Town CBD are the fruit of the co-operation forged between business and local government while Cape Town was under the leadership of ANC mayor NomaIndia Mfeketo, whose forward-looking initiatives laid a solid foundation for the development of this city; and

(3) commends these businesses for the role they are playing in urban renewal.

[Applause.]

Mr R J HEINE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) expresses its dismay that the reputation of this country’s best known and admired public corporation abroad, the Industrial Development Corporation, has been sullied by the cavalier attitude to corporate governance displayed by its chief executive;

(2) further expresses its concern that potential foreign investors will become more sceptical about levels of corporate governance here; and

(3) calls on the Minister of Trade and Industry to take steps to restore the IDC’s reputation for integrity and equity by -

   (a)  accepting the resignation of the erring chief executive and
       explaining why he did not do so when it was offered;


   (b)  instructing the IDC board to adopt a code of corporate
       governance that reflects international best practice; and


   (c)  censuring the new chairman of the IDC for not himself having
       taken decisive and appropriate action against the erring chief
       executive.

Prince N E ZULU: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) appreciates the reply from the Ministry of Labour to the question asked regarding the formula for calculating the unemployment rate in South Africa;

(2) requests the Ministry to impress upon Statistics South Africa that the two formulae for calculating the unemployment rate in South Africa should be harmonised to produce one formula for a single purpose;

(3) deplores the fact that the official formula projects 26,7% and the general formula projects 45% as unemployment rates in South Africa; and

(4) notes with concern that the variance is too wide and makes no sense as to how many people are unemployed in South Africa.

[Applause.] Mr T R MOFOKENG: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  300 000 Metro rail commuters were left stranded in Soweto after
       signal equipment was stolen; and


   (b)  commuters were forced to find alternative means of getting to
       their of destinations, causing displeasure and inconvenience;

(2) condemns the theft of this equipment; and

(3) calls on communities to assist the police in bringing the culprits to book.

Dr P J RABIE: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with alarm that -

   (a)  the International Monetary Fund's resident representative in
       Harare told Reuters that Zimbabwe was $25 million in arrears to
       the fund; and


   (b)  Zimbabwe is experiencing critical foreign exchange shortfalls
       regarding basic economic maintenance;

(2) further notes that -

   (a)  Zimbabwe may have problems in making upfront payments to Eskom
       and other key Southern African suppliers; and


   (b)  the negative developments in Zimbabwe caused an adverse effect
       on the exchange rate of the rand in the past fiscal year; and

(3) calls upon the Government to insist that Zimbabwe meet its international fiscal arrangement, because the value of the South African rand is extremely vulnerable to negative events in Zimbabwe.

JOINT MONITORING COMMITTEE PREVENTED FROM HOLDING WORKSHOP IN NONGOMA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M T GONIWE: Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the House -

 (1)    notes that the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of
     Quality of Life and Status of Women was prevented from holding a
     workshop at Nongoma in KwaZulu-Natal aimed at empowering rural
     women to participate in the democratic process;


 (2)    confirms that the members of the committee were fulfilling their
     duties as mandated by the electorate;


 (3)    condemns this interference with the work of elected members of
     this Parliament; and


 (4)    recommends that the committee return to the area to continue
     their task once appropriate arrangements have been made to ensure
     the co-operation of the entire community and the safety of all
     participants.

Mnu M B NTULI: Sihlalo neNdlu yonke, indaba yakwaNongoma eyenzeka ngomhla ka-3 Meyi 2001 isihlehlisela emuva sonke ngokuthi amalunga ePhalamende eyokwenza umsebenzi wawo avinjwe abantu abahlomile ukuze angakwazi ukufundisa omama basemakhaya ngokuthi imithetho ishaywa kanjani ePhalamende.

Udlame lwakwaNongoma-ke lwehlukene kathathu. Kukhona udlame lwepolitiki, olwamatekisi kanye nolombango nje. I-ANC iyafisa ukuthi ikucacise kuwo wonke umuntu waseMzansi Afrika nakule Ndlu ukuthi isimo esinje sisihlehlisela emuva. Uma ngabe kungukuthi senza umsebenzi abantu abasikhethele wona, kufanele abantu sibalekelele ngokufanelekile, ngaphandle kokwesatshiswa nangokuvinjwa. Ngakho-ke sifisa ukuthi le Ndlu ikwamukele ukuthi kungumthwalo wethu sonke namaqembu ethu ukuthi sihambe sibafundise abantu ukuthi bafanele baziphathe kanjani ukuze bakwazi ukuthola izinto abazivotela.

Baningi-ke abantu asebafa, abanye bebulawa ngalolu dlame esengilusho ngenhla. Yize ngingeke ngilubale, sifisa ukuthi - uma kungukuthi leli Phalamende liyawazi umsebenzi walo - sisukume sonke silekelele abantu baseMzansi Afrika ukuze ingathatheki le ndawo njengendawo ehlukile kwezinye izindawo lapho abantu bakithi befanele khona ukulekelelwa.

Kunezingcabha-ke ezisisalele zokuthi thina sonke siphume siyobafundisa abantu sibuye sibuyele kwaNongoma, njengoba iSiphakamiso sisho. Kufanele sibuyele ngobuningi bethu, sikwazi ukuthi abantu sibafundise ngaphandle kokuvinjwa. Ngiyafisa ukuthi i-ANC ihambisane nokuthi wonke umuntu, kuwo wonke amaqembu, angavinjwa uma eyokwenza umsebenzi wakhe. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Mr M B NTULI: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and honourable House. The Nongoma incident of 3 May 2001 holds all of us back since members of Parliament who were there to perform their duties were obstructed by armed people so that they were not able to teach the rural women how laws are made in Parliament. The violence in Nongoma is threefold. There is political and taxi violence, and in addition to that there is faction fighting going on. The ANC wants to make it clear to every South African citizen that such incidents hold the nation back. We have a duty to care for the people who elected us. While we are performing those duties, we should not be intimidated by being obstructed. We wish this House to accept that it is the duty of all of us here and our political parties, to go and educate people out there on how they should behave so that they can get what they voted for.

Many people have died due to the above-mentioned violence. Although I cannot name it, if this Parliament has to perform its duty, we should all stand up and help South Africans so that this area can be regarded as an area that is different from those that need assistance.

We have a task to go and teach people. We should return to Nongoma, as the proposal stipulates. We should return to that area in numbers so that we can teach people without being blocked. I would like the ANC to support the principle that no persons, across party-political lines, should be obstructed when they are on their way to perform their duty. [Applause.]]

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Chairperson, on 18 April I attended one of the series of meetings referred to in this motion. That meeting was at Tugela Ferry in eMsinga. Most of the same personnel who organised that meeting were also at Nongoma on 3 May.

I attended this meeting with Mrs Barbara Thompson from the NCOP. The meeting at Tugela Ferry was conducted extremely well. No one complained about it. It was balanced and it was a genuine attempt to allow rural women to express their needs and to explain to them how they could access Parliament.

Imagine my surprise when I heard that the meeting at Nongoma, which was to have taken place on the premises of the Department of Social Development, was forcibly prohibited from taking place and that six members of Parliament from both the ANC and the IFP as well as personnel were forced to leave.

Kwavele kwathiwa: Phumani! Phumani! Phuma! Phuma! Phuma! Vala isango! [They said: Out! Out! Out! Out! Out! Close the gate!]

All this from very strong men. What is distressing is that this appears to have been co-ordinated by members of the IFP who believe that Nongoma is a no-go area for people who are not supporters of the IFP.

We have had another example of political intolerance in Albertinia, where the candidate of the Western Cape was prevented by the ANC from meeting with people in that area. In addition, two meetings at schools had to be cancelled.

This kind of political intolerance is unacceptable. What I find even more distressing about the Nongoma incident is that members of the provincial legislature, from different parties - as a member has just been telling us

• were present. It was not a party-political gathering. It took place with the knowledge of the Speaker of the KwaZulu-Natal legislature, Nkosi Bonga Mdletye. Not only that, but since when does a group from Parliament, or any legal political party for that matter, need the permission of another political party to hold a meeting? Iqembu lethu ngenhlonipho sizoyitshel’inkosi nenduna nkulu uma singena isigodi sakhe. Sihamba ngenhlonipho. [Our party will respectfully inform the King and the Premier when we want to visit their province. We will go there with respect.]

But we do not ask permission from other political parties to hold political meetings. This was a meeting which was aimed at obtaining information. What is perhaps even more worrying is that KwaZulu-Natal has been settling down after years of horrific political violence. Voters do not like violence and intimidation.

One of the most noticeable phenomena in the December local government elections, apart from the DA’s great growth, was how well the IFP did in KwaZulu-Natal. I believe that one of the major reasons for that excellent showing was the declining violence and the IFP’s and other parties’ commitment to free and fair elections in that province. But if IFP members conduct themselves in the undemocratic and undisciplined way in which they apparently did in Nongoma, then they will lose voter support.

I hope that the person from the IFP who is speaking after me will explain and, if necessary, apologise, and tell us what discipline the IFP is going to mete out to these members.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chair, I do not know whether it is for them to dictate to people like me what I should say. To a very large extent, we are a product of our own history. Some people do not understand that we have been through a very hurtful conflict in South Africa. Now, with such a history, one can easily slip into a holier-than-thou attitude when debating matters, such as the matter which we are debating today. For our part, we, as the IFP, do not expect anybody today to start saying ``mea culpa, mea culpa.’’

The IFP, since its inception as a cultural liberation movement in 1975, has espoused the principle of nonviolence and has pursued the hallowed values of the struggle, with the ultimate aim of achieving the unity of all South Africans, black and white. This is our commitment. Therefore, we condemn any interference with the work of parliamentarians, especially when some people try to prevent members of Parliament from doing their duty, as recently happened at a workshop in Nongoma and also in the Western Cape.

In the circumstances, we support the motion before the House. In our view, tensions still prevail in some communities. Parliament, therefore, needs to demonstrate sensitivity when making arrangements to visit communities. During the past seven years, the ANC and the IFP have achieved a great deal in reducing tension, but this incident makes all of us appreciate the need to remain vigilant.

Ingalesizathu sihlalo kundimangaza uma lo usanda kukhuluma weDP eqikelela ukuthi lapha kwaNongoma yi IFP eyenza loku. [It is for this reason that I am surprised, Madam Speaker, that the previous speaker from the DP insinuated that it was the IFP that did bad things in Nongoma.]

He must know that in any community there will always be loose canons. Even in his party there are loose canons. If there are loose canons, I cannot then make an umbrella statement and say that the DP is guilty of such violence. I must single out those individuals who are guilty of a particular action. This is the spirit we should adapt. We should not come with an umbrella statement and say, “IFP.”

In fact, this reminds me of the time when we were still in the struggle. They used to say:``Look at these blacks. They are fighting each other.’’ Now, this is the attitude which still prevails among some members from the other side.

Mphathisihlalo, kuye kuthiwe indlela eya ekuphileni inameva. Ukubuyisana phakathi kwezinhlanga naphakathi kwamaqembu yiyona ndlela eya ekuphileni kwezwe lethu iNingizimu Afrika. Kepha le ndlela inameva. Ukuthi inameva akusho ukuthi akufanele siyihambe. Sisazoyihamba le ndlela yokubuyisana yize inameva. Ukuthi obanibani bathini akusho lutho, kodwa le ndlela sisazoyihamba. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Madam Speaker, people used to say the path to a happy life is thorny. Reconciliation among races and political parties is the way to our country’s happy life. Nevertheless, this path is thorny. When we say it is thorny this does not mean that we should not take it. We will take this path to reconciliation although it is thorny. Regardless of what other people say, we will take this path.] Mr L C MOTHIBA: Chairperson, the UDM was not part of the delegation that visited Nongoma on 3 May. Nonetheless, we welcome the opportunity to discuss the safeguarding of the integrity of parliamentary committees and their work.

On the face of it, the work of the committee was, indeed, unjustly interrupted. Be that as it may, two underlying principles of democracy are highlighted by this event. Firstly, there is the issue of public participation in parliamentary processes, as well as parliamentary programmes reaching out to the public. It is vital for Parliament and legislatures in a democracy, especially one as young as ours, to remain accountable and accessible to the public between elections. After all, we cannot pretend to do our work as public representatives, elected by the people for the people, if we are closed up away from them, appearing only during election campaigns.

Secondly, this incident raises another important principle of democracy, ie the safeguarding of the integrity of parliamentary committees. The committees of Parliament are its engine room. In their success or failure, lies the success or failure of democracy.

The UDM will support this motion on the premise that the integrity of the work of parliamentary committees must be protected. We support this motion with a call to the ANC to recognise that all parliamentary committees require such support.

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, the ACDP supports political tolerance and all initiatives to empower women in South Africa. However, the incident in Nongoma, in KwaZulu-Natal, cannot be addressed in isolation without looking at the bigger picture.

The Government’s dragging of its heels in addressing the powers and functions of traditional leaders in the Constitution is causing frustration, not only to traditional authorities, but also to traditional communities at large. If this is not urgently addressed, Government will be the cause of major conflict and continued confrontation will arise in the near future.

The fact that there has not been proper consultation with the leaders, the mayor and members of Parliament of Nongoma, is questionable and gives rise to dissatisfaction. The ACDP supports traditional leaders as the institution which guarantees self-governance of traditional communities in promoting their development, and calls on Government to proactively engage traditional authorities and ensure that the issue of the institution of traditional leadership in our democracy is addressed.

Dr C P MULDER: Agb Voorsitter, op die oog af lyk dit na ‘n baie eenvoudige saak. Hier het ons te doen gehad met ‘n komitee van die Parlement wat uitgegaan het na ‘n gedeelte van Suid-Afrika en wat daar verhoed is om hul werksaamhede uit te voer. Op die oog af lyk dit baie eenvoudig en niemand kon tot nou toe sê dat hy dit goedkeur dat daardie komitee verhoed is om sy werksaamhede te verrig nie. Ek is bevrees dit is nie so eenvoudig nie. Die vraag is: Om watter rede het daardie gemeenskap so opgetree teenoor daardie komitee? Die verslag van die komitee wat teruggekom het, lui:

The workshop did not take place in Nongoma as the local leadership claimed that they were not consulted.

Ek is van mening dat die hele kwessie en die hantering spesifiek gegewe Nongoma en KwaZulu-Natal, asook die hantering van die hele vraagstuk van tradisionele leierskap in Suid-Afrika en die persepsie wat bestaan dat die Regering nie sy beloftes nagekom het wat verlede jaar gemaak is voor die stadsraadsverkiesings nie, hierin ‘n belangrike rol gespeel het. Die Regering sal daardie probleem moet hanteer. Dit sal nie vanself weggaan nie. Dit is onderliggend dat daar ‘n antagonisme is teen die Parlement en al sy strukture. Dit moet reggestel word. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, on the face of it this appears to be a very simple matter. Here we were dealing with a committee of Parliament that had gone out to a part of South Africa and that had been prevented from performing its functions there. On the face of it this appears to be a simple matter and as yet no one has been able to say that he approves of the committee’s being prevented from performing its functions. I am afraid that it is not that simple. The question is: For what reason did that community behave in that way towards the committee? The report that came back from the committee stated:

The workshop did not take place in Nongoma as the local leadership claimed that they were not consulted.

I am of the opinion that the entire question and the handling of specifically the givens of Nongoma and KwaZulu-Natal, as well as the handling of the whole question of traditional leadership in South Africa and the perception that exists that the Government did not keep the promises that it had made last year before the local elections, played an important role in this. The Government will have to deal with that problem. It will not go away by itself. There is underlying antagonism towards Parliament and all its structures. This must be rectified.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF summarily objects to the destruction of the rural women’s workshop, as we believe that women should be given a fair chance to improve the quality and status of their lives in the same way that men are afforded opportunities. Just as successful workshops were held in Umzinto, Msinga, Ndwedwe, Ladysmith and Jozini without any problem, we call on these men to stop being selfish and give rural women in Nongoma a chance to equip themselves with the necessary skills to better their lifestyles.

It is this kind of irresponsible, immature behaviour that puts us parliamentarians in a negative light, just like the recent allegation made against the Speaker of this House and allegations against our institution. This sort of negative spotlight is also costing us time and money, since it was also reported that a staff member was traumatised as a result of the destruction and required counselling. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, the AEB rejects any blackmailing of the democratic process, whether the process is hindered by no-go areas, by refusing people entrance to a place or by Ministers who apply a no-go principle to certain questions by refusing to answer them in Parliament. [Interjections.] What happened in Nongoma is a symptom and not the disease. We do not approve of that, but it is a symptom of people feeling marginalised, people feeling betrayed through unfulfilled promises; promises of international mediation that should have examined their problems.

Dit is die probleem van die tradisionele leiers wie se vrae nie beantwoord word nie. Hulle is gekoöpteer in die Parlement en die Kabinet maar dit is maar bolangs. Op grondvlak geld die spreekwoord: ``Stille waters diepe grond, onder draai die duiwel rond.’’ Mense wil nie gekoöpteer word nie. Hulle wil bemagtig word om self oor hul sake te kan besluit. Die antwoord van die AEB is: Gee erkenning aan gemeenskappe, aan kultuurgroepe om oor hulself te beskik en ons sal nie hierdie probleme kry nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[This is the problem of the traditional leaders whose questions are not being answered. They have been co-opted into Parliament and the Cabinet, but this is merely superficial. At grass-roots level the saying goes: ``Still waters run deep.’ People do not want to be co-opted. They want to be empowered to decide about their own affairs. The AEB’s answer is: Afford communities and cultural groups the recognition to decide for themselves and we will not encounter these problems.]

Mr M B NTULI: Chairperson, it is interesting to note that even at this time, the DA and its allies still feel it is conducive for them to try and divide the blacks. We appreciate that notion. But the time for that has passed and we are not going to entertain that. With regard to the issue of international mediation through which the member is trying to portray support for a certain group of people, he was in fact enjoying himself when black-on-black violence took place at the time.

The ANC appreciates the move that has been made by both the IFP and the ANC in KwaZulu-Natal to try and create a situation where political violence will be further reduced from where it is now. We would like to support the move that has been made by the tripartite alliance in KwaZulu-Natal and tell them to keep it up. We will be behind them. We will go back and educate our masses, so that they understand what politics is about. Forget about these whiteys. [Applause.]

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson the hon member ended his speech by referring to this side of the House and saying: Forget about these whiteys.'' I want to know from the Chair if that is parliamentary. If so, will you in future rule that members will be allowed to refer to other people asblackies’’.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, both in terms of our Constitution and the Orders of Parliament, any statement intended to create racial incitement or seen to be creating racial incitement is not in the spirit of both. I would therefore like to request that the hon Ntuli withdraws that statement.

Mr M B NTULI: Sihlalo, yebo ngiyahoxisa kodwa bazwile bona. [Chairperson, of course I withdraw, but they heard me.]

Mr G B D MCINTOSH: I heard what he just said!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mr Ntuli, are you withdrawing the statement? [Interjections.] You are. I have asked the hon member and he has indicated quite clearly that he withdraws. In respect of an earlier point of order which was taken, we have been considering it and I think it needs to be researched a little more. When we are prepared with that, we will come back to the House and we will rule on that point of order.

Debate concluded.

Motion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 18:06. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 23 May 2001 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75
     Bills:


     (i)     Pension Funds Amendment Bill [B 22 - 2001] (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


     (ii)    Patents Amendment Bill [B 24 - 2001] (National Assembly -
             sec 75).


 (2)    On 23 May 2001 the following Bill, at the request of the
     Minister of Trade and Industry, was introduced in the National
     Council of Provinces by the Select Committee on conomic Affairs.
     It has been referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:
     (i)     Consumer Affairs (Unfair Business Practices) Amendment
          Bill [B 28 - 2001] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76)
          [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No 22249 of 24
          April 2001.]


     The Bill has also been referred to the Select Committee on
     Economic Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development and to the Select Committee
     on Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and
     report:


     Documents in terms of section 9(1) of the Promotion of National
     Unity and Reconciliation Act, 1995 regarding the remuneration,
     allowances and other employment benefits of the staff of the Truth
     and Reconciliation Commission.


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also referred
     to the Portfolio Committee on Labour and to the Select Committee
     on Labour and Public Enterprises for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     Unemployment Insurance Fund for 1999 [RP 42-2001].


 (3)    The following report is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Minerals and Energy and to the Select Committee on Economic
     Affairs. The Report of the Auditor-General contained in the
     following report is referred to the Standing Committee on Public
     Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Geoscience for
     1999-2000, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements for 1999-2000.


 (4)    The following report is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Agriculture and Land Affairs and to the Select Committee on Land
     and Environmental Affairs:


     Consolidated Statements, and Generally Accepted Accounting
     Practice, of the Assets and Liabilities and the Profit and Loss
     Account of the Land Bank and its Subsidiaries- the South African
     Mortgage and Insurance Company Limited for 2000, tabled in terms
     of section 65(2) of the Land Bank Act, 1944 (Act No 13 of 1944).

National Assembly:

The Speaker:

1. The following changes have been made to the membership of Committees, viz:

 Defence:
 Appointed: Groenewald, P J.


 Ethics and Members' Interests:


 Appointed: Mulder, C P.


 Safety and Security:


 Appointed: Groenewald, P J.


 Sport and Recreation:


 Appointed: Mulder, C P.


 Trade and Industry:


 Discharged: Mulder, C P.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (a)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     South African Telecommunications Regulatory Authority for 1999-
     2000 [RP 47-2001].


 (b)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     Independent Broadcasting Authority for 1999-2000 [RP 49-2001].


 (c)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Summarised Findings of
     Performance Audits conducted at certain Provincial Departments of
     Education [RP 45-2001].

1. The Minister of Public Enterprises:

 Report and Financial Statements of Eskom for 2000.

1. The Minister of Health:

 Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and
 the Government of the Republic of Cuba on Cooperation in the field of
 Health, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996. National Assembly:

Bills:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (1)    Wysigingswetsontwerp op Belastingwette [W 17 - 2001].


     The Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 17 - 2001] (National Assembly
     - sec 77) was introduced by the Minister of Finance on 5 April
     2001 and referred to the Joint Committee on Taxational Laws
     Amendment Bill.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on the Airports Company Amendment Bill [B 20 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 23 May 2001:

   The Portfolio Committee on Transport, having considered the subject of the Airports Company Amendment Bill [B 20 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on the Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill [B 21 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 23 May 2001:

   The Portfolio Committee on Transport, having considered the subject of the Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill [B 21 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.