National Assembly - 26 June 2001
TUESDAY, 26 JUNE 2001 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 09:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms N V CINDI: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) this year marks the 46th anniversary of the Freedom Charter; and
(b) the Freedom Charter remains the blueprint of the aspirations of
the masses of our people for democracy;
(2) believes that the ideas and principles expressed in this document serve as important guidelines to the democracy we seek to build in our country; and
(3) reiterates the commitment of the ANC and its alliance partners to the ideals that are enshrined in the Freedom Charter.
[Applause.]
Mrs B N SONO: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes with serious concern -
(a) the rising rate of unemployment and poverty;
(b) that millions of people live in destitution whilst the
Government is busy patting itself on the back as having sound
economic policies; and
(c) that sound economic policies do not always translate into higher
standards of living; and
(2) therefore calls on the national Government to -
(a) re-evaluate the state policy towards the development of small
business; and
(b) commit more resources to the development of the small business
sector, because this sector has a huge percentage of women
involved in survivalist business activities.
Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House - (1) notes that -
(a) societies in general and government in particular recognise that
information technology is one of the most potent drivers of the
modern economy; and
(b) it is also recognised, sadly I might observe, that South Africa
and Africa generally lag behind the highly developed countries
of the world in this regard;
(2) therefore wishes to call on the Government to take full and immediate advantage of the totally free availability of Linnux, the open source code, to develop South Africa as the World’s Linnux Capital; and
(3) furthermore calls on the Government to identify one university, or more, for appropriate resourcing in order that the study of Linnux be promoted widely amongst school leavers and underqualified IT practitioners. Mr J H NASH: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the information that has come to light of the NP apartheid government’s collusion with Cape PLC to cover up the horrific environmental health hazards caused by Cape PLC’s asbestos mining operations during the 1970s;
(2) recognises the efforts that our current ANC Government has made to support the victims of the asbestos mining operations of Cape PLC to obtain recompense, culminating in a victory in the British House of Lords, which granted the claimants the right to seek redress through the British justice system; and
(3) welcomes the commitment of the parties to settle and urges Cape PLC to settle speedily and so alleviate the suffering of the claimants.
[Applause.] The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I know it is early in the morning, but your private business should be conducted before the House starts with its proceedings.
Mr R S SCHOEMAN: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the first year of the DA was marked by electoral success ...
[Interjections.]
... in the local government election in December 2000 and in
subsequent by-elections, like Mitchells Plain where it obtained
80% of the vote ...
[Interjections.]
... and in Secunda where it increased its support by almost 13%;
(b) the DA-controlled Western Cape Government is consistently
outperforming all other ANC provincial governments; and ...
[Interjections.]
(c) in the local government sphere DA-controlled local governments
are way ahead of ANC-controlled councils in implementing
election undertakings ...
[Interjections.]
... and delivering services; and
(2) therefore congratulates the DA on the celebration of its first year …
[Interjections.]
… and wishes it great success on building on these achievements in the future in the interests of all South Africans.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr J T MASEKA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) recalls that it, as well as the Government, has on numerous occasions committed itself to incorruptibility and clean governance;
(2) notes with dismay and shock the revelations of luxury vehicles being supplied to the Chief of the SANDF, as well as other senior Government employees …
[Interjections.]
(3) acknowledges that such ``gifts’’ constitute an unacceptable practice for Government employees, especially since these can be construed as bribes to influence, or provide sensitive information on, the strategic arms deal;
(4) calls on the Minister of Defence to immediately demand the suspension of General Nyanda; and …
[Interjections.]
(5) calls on the Government to acknowledge that the arms deal investigation has been severely compromised and to institute a judicial inquiry as a matter of urgency.
[Interjections.]
Dr Z P JORDAN: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that 46 years ago 3 000 delegates including two members of this august Assembly, namely the hon Ben Turok and Billy Nair, gathered in Kliptown to declare that ``South Africa belongs to all who live in it’’ during the adoption of the Freedom Charter;
(2) further notes that six years after the attainment of democracy, the ANC-led Government has -
(a) secured the human rights of all people through the adoption of
the democratic Constitution with a Bill of Rights;
(b) scrapped all laws which discriminate against people on the basis
of their colour;
(c) provided one million houses to the poor;
(d) ensured that more than 600 000 people have access to water,
electricity and telephones; and
(e) ensured that health care services are made available to the
poor;
(3) commends the ANC-led Government for remaining steadfast in meeting the aspirations of our people; and
(4) calls on the people to join the Government in fighting the scourge of HIV/Aids, poverty and racism.
There will be copies of the Freedom Charter available to members of this august Assembly, and they need to take it today. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC:
That the House -
(1) notes that a very important World Conference on HIV/Aids is meeting at the United Nations;
(2) notes that the Minister of Health and members of this House, like Mrs Patricia de Lille, have been invited to this conference; and
(3) regrets that with the spotlight falling sharply on South Africa because of its unimpressive policy on HIV/Aids, we do not seem to have taken this conference seriously and to have tried to use this platform to change our image and secure more help for the sake of our afflicted masses and Aids orphans.
Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die VF sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) kennis neem daarvan dat ‘n Afrikaanse kunstefees vanaf 26-29 Julie te Wembley by Londen sal plaasvind;
(2) verder kennis neem dat talle bekende Afrikaanse kunstenaars by hierdie fees, wat die eerste van sy soort in Londen sal wees, sal optree;
(3) sy hoop uitspreek dat die talle Suid-Afrikaners, en veral Afrikaanssprekendes, wat tans in Londen werksaam is, hierdie fees in groot getalle sal bywoon om sodoende Afrikaanse kuns en kultuur op sy beste te ervaar en te koester; en
(4) die organiseerders en deelnemers aan die fees alle voorspoed en sterkte toewens en sy hoop uitspreek dat hierdie die éérste van vele suksesvolle Afrikaanse kunstefeeste in Londen sal wees. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the FF:
That the House -
(1) notes that an Afrikaans arts festival will take place at Wembley in London, from 26 to 29 July;
(2) further notes that many well-known Afrikaans artists will be performing at this festival, which will be the first of its kind in London;
(3) expresses the hope that the many South Africans, and especially Afrikaans speakers, currently working in London will attend this festival in large numbers so as to experience and cherish Afrikaans art and culture at its best; and
(4) wishes the festival’s organisers and participants everything of the best and expresses the hope that this will be the first of many successful Afrikaans arts festivals in London.]
Ms M M RAMAKABA-LESIEA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that there is a temporary shortage of diesel in parts of our country and of jet fuel at Johannesburg International Airport due to the fire at Natref Oil Refinery and the maintenance shutdown of the Engen Oil Refinery in Durban;
(2) commends the steps taken by the Minister and Department of Minerals and Energy to manage this shortage; and
(3) thanks the oil industry, the airlines, the public and other major fuel users for their constructive co-operation.
Mr A J BOTHA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes the growing frustration of all the people with the inability of the Government to protect law-abiding citizens from criminal violence;
(2) observes that the latest expression of this frustration resulted in the blockading of the Magistrate’s Court in Ceres during the appearance of the alleged murderers of the Visser family;
(3) reaffirms that the rule of law is the basis of a healthy society and that economic growth is needed to address the pressing issues of crime and poverty; and
(4) urges the ANC Government to address these real issues facing the people, or run the risk that more citizens will lose confidence in the criminal justice system and take the law into their own hands.
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) South African rugby has been losing its lustre in recent years;
and
(b) the recent test matches against the French have shown that South
African rugby players are not the force they might have been;
(2) therefore welcomes the appointment of Bobby Skinstad as the captain of the national side and hopes that his appointment will provide inspired leadership to take South African rugby to the heights it should rightly occupy; and
(3) further notes that the IFP takes great interest in the appointment and wishes the team well.
[Interjections.]
Ms S D MOTUBATSE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the role that the Grahamstown Arts Festival has played over the years in promoting arts and culture in South Africa;
(2) acknowledges that arts and culture play a key role in promoting national reconciliation;
(3) further notes that by sponsoring the festival, Standard Bank itself has not only been helping with nation-building, but it has also given heed to the ANC Government’s call to the private sector to become partners in the promotion and development of arts and culture in South Africa; (4) therefore regrets the bank’s decision to end its sponsorship and calls on it to reconsider; and
(5) urges the organisation to consider making the so-called fringe artists a part of the festival proper, because this type of practice is not conducive to nation-building.
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes that 26 June is the UN’s international day against drug abuse and illicit trafficking;
(2) furthermore notes with alarm that drug abuse amongst young people is increasing to such an extent that, for example, deaths from heroin will soon rival deaths from Aids according to a SA Narcotics Bureau undercover policeman;
(3) agrees with the national drug master plan that drugs must be tackled in the classroom, or lecture room, rather than the courtroom; and
(4) therefore urges all provinces to put into place feasible programmes to combat drug abuse amongst learners as an indispensable part of the curriculum.
Mr D G MKONO: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) agrees with the intervention of the Portfolio Committee on Housing on behalf of the people of Cape Town who are being evicted from their homes in the middle of winter …
[Interjections.]
(2) further concurs that a moratorium on evictions during the winter months should be imposed, recognising the constitutional right of all citizens to shelter and protection from the elements; (3) notes with concern that municipalities under ANC control, such as Port Elizabeth and Johannesburg, are guilty of similar mass evictions in the middle of winter; and …
[Interjections.]
(4) calls on the ANC to be consistent, or face the accusation of abusing the constitutional right to housing of South Africans, whilst not being really concerned about the poor and homeless.
JAMANALAL BAJAJ INTERNATIONAL AWARD TO ARCHBISHOP TUTU
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Madam Speaker, I hereby move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that Archbishop Tutu was awarded India’s Jamanalal Bajaj International award for adopting Gandhi’s values; (2) believes that this serves as recognition of the legitimacy of the struggle for democracy, peace and national unity in South Africa and is another illustration of the historic ties between India and South Africa; and
(3) congratulates Archbishop Tutu on his achievement and concurs with him that women have played a major role in the struggle for peace and justice.
Agreed to.
EXTENDED PERIOD OF CONSTITUENCY WORK
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I hereby move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that today, 26 June 2001, marks the last sitting of this House until September;
(2) further notes that members of this House will have an extended period of constituency work following their leave period; and
(3) pledges that all members elected to this House will, during this constituency period, devote their energies to promoting the principles and values of the Constitution, serving the needs of the people of South Africa and building a united, peaceful and prosperous South Africa.
Agreed to.
TIME FOR DECLARATIONS OF VOTE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I hereby move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 81, the time for a declaration of vote today shall not exceed two minutes.
Agreed to.
EXTENSION OF TRIAL-RUN PERIOD OF QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I hereby move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, with reference to the resolution adopted by the House on 5 April 2001, the period for the trial run of questions for oral reply be further extended until 31 December 2001.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 242: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; Gerber, P A; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Madasa, Z L; Magazi, M N; Mahlangu, G L; Mahomed, F; Mahlawe, N; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka,N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rajbally, S; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 65: Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gomomo, P J; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Motion accordingly agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)
The SPEAKER: Order! I wish to thank parties for indicating in advance the Votes on which they shall make declarations, record their objections, or request divisions. This information will greatly assist and speed up the process this morning.
I will put each Vote and ask parties for declarations of vote, as they have indicated previously. After this, I will put the Vote for decision. The bells will be rung for three minutes for the first division on the Appropriation Bill, but for only 15 seconds for subsequent divisions.
Vote No 1 - Presidency - put. The SPEAKER: Declarations have been requested by the DP, the IFP, the New NP, the AEB and the ANC.
Declarations of vote:
Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, there are four stark failures in the activities of the President and his Government. Whatever good the Government does - and there are some good things - is heavily overshadowed by crime, by joblessness, by the failure to deal adequately, or at all, with HIV/Aids, and by the apparent tolerance of corruption and sleaze.
The opposition cannot support this Vote, when to do so would imply support for a government and for its policies and action, or lack of action. Crime is eating out the heart of our nation; joblessness is robbing our people of their dignity; HIV/Aids is robbing our youth of their lives; and sleaze is destroying the reputation of the Government.
Many people who celebrated the Freedom Charter, and who struggled and sacrificed to achieve the aims of the Freedom Charter now just shake their heads, because the symbol of this Government is not the values of the Freedom Charter. The symbol of this Government is becoming the Mercedes- Benz. Instead of an opportunity and a better life for all, we find that only some of the elite enjoy the better life. A few fortunate people qualify for fancy cars, clothes, houses, fine wines and good food. They feel that they are entitled to this - after all, they struggled.
They are creating the impression - and it is a very unfortunate impression
- that there is a tolerance of sleaze and a tolerance of corruption in this Government. When the President does more about crime, when he does more about joblessness, when he does more about HIV/Aids, and when he does more about corruption, then we in opposition will consider supporting his Vote. Until then, we will not. [Interjections.]
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, the IFP supports Vote No 1 - the Presidency. Our position, as the IFP, was put by our leader during the debate, and it was loud and clear. Firstly, we would like to commend Parliament for having more disabled people as members of Parliament. We support the principle of taking on board everybody.
Just recently, the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons embarked on provincial visits, which is part of monitoring and part of its mandate. In some of the provinces we saw that very little had been done for the disabled. There were not even parking bays at some of the legislatures. Our question therefore on this Vote is: What is the Office of the Presidency doing to monitor some of these things in the provinces and also in local government? We are pressurising the Office of the Presidency to monitor issues on children, youth and the disabled. [Applause.]
Mr R S SCHOEMAN: Madam Speaker, hon members, inasmuch as the discussion of this Vote obliges the executive, led by the President and the Deputy President, to give account to Parliament, Parliament must also pass judgment on what has actually been achieved, not only on what has been promised. [Interjections.]
In this regard, I suggest that it be noted that according to a survey released only 10 days ago, the percentage of South Africans who are optimistic about the future has dropped in a year by 10% to 57%. Clearly, the Government of the day, because of its inability to deal effectively with the issues that have been referred to by my hon colleague Mr Gibson, must take the blame for this.
Dit help ook nie dat die agb Adjunkpresident die Regering probeer laat beter lyk deur kritiek op die ANC en die Kabinet af te maak as chroniese pessimisme of onpatriotisme nie. Die pessimisme oor die toekoms van hierdie land is die direkte gevolg van die onbeholpenheid van die Regering en sy gehalte van politieke leierskap. Al wat die opposisie, die media en die burgerlike gemeenskap doen, is om daardie kritiek te verwoord.
Feit van die saak is, al is daar vordering gemaak in die Presidensie met sekere aspekte en al is dit ook waar wat betref sekere optredes van die President in die buiteland, is dit nie vir ons moontlik om vandag hierdie begrotingspos te steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Furthermore, it does not help for the hon the Deputy President to try to make the Government look better by shrugging off criticism of the ANC and the Cabinet as chronic pessimism or lack of patriotism. The pessimism about the future of this country is the direct result of the ineptness of the Government and the quality of its political leadership. All that the opposition, the media and the civilian population are doing, is to give expression to that criticism.
The fact of the matter is that even if progress has been made in the Presidency with regard to certain aspects and even if this also holds true with regard to certain actions of the President abroad, it is not possible for us to support this Vote today.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, die AEB het hierdie keer met baie groter waardering na die President se begrotingsrede geluister, en veral na sy repliek, waarin hy hierdie keer wel ‘n aanduiding gegee het dat hy geluister het na insette van verskeie sprekers in hierdie debat. Dit was algeheel van ‘n beter gehalte.
Ons is dankbaar oor die sake wat hy gehanteer het, veral die onvoorwaardelike veroordeling van plaasmoorde, en ook oor die versoenende houding wat ingeneem is ten opsigte van ander gemeenskappe, onder meer die Afrikaner, in Suid-Afrika. Hierdie sake bly egter steeds uitstaande en dit is nou tyd vir die praktiese implementering en verwesenliking daarvan. Indien dit gebeur, sal die AEB sy standpunt kan heroorweeg. Daar is ook nog te min tekens dat die President werklik ‘n president vir al die mense wil wees.
‘n Volgende punt wat ons verhoed om vir hierdie begrotingspos te stem is die werklik onhanteerbare vlakke van misdaad, en in besonder die vlak van plaasmoorde. Laastens wil die AEB dit net ook hier noem dat hy wel die verduideliking van die President omtrent die voorval met Winnie Mandela aanvaar, en dat ons waardering daarvoor moet hê dat hy nie ‘n staatsgeleentheid wou misbruik deur dit te laat lyk na ‘n ANC-reünie nie. Die AEB sal nie hierdie begrotingspos kan steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, the AEB listened to the President’s budget speech this time with much more appreciation and especially to his reply in which he in fact gave an indication that he had listened to inputs from various speakers in this debate. It was of an altogether better quality.
We are grateful for the issues he dealt with, especially his unconditional condemnation of farm killings, as well as the reconciliatory attitude he adopted in respect of other communities, amongst others the Afrikaners, in South Africa. These issues, however, remain in obeyance and it is now time for the practical implementation and achievement thereof. Were this to happen, the AEB would reconsider its position. There are also too few signs that the President really wants to be a president for all the people.
Another point that prevents us from voting for this Vote is the really unmanageable levels of crime and in particular the level of farm killings. Lastly the AEB wants to mention here that it accepts the President’s explanation of the Winnie Mandela incident and that we must have appreciation for the fact that he did not want to misuse a state affair by making it look like an ANC-reunion. The AEB will not be able to support this Vote.]
Mr T S YENGENI: Madam Speaker, the success of the Presidency to carry out its responsibilities necessitates that to be well resourced. The hon the President needs to be resourced and attract skilled personnel to meet the objectives of transformation. The experience in other parts of the world only points in one direction, that our Presidency is not as well-resourced as it should be.
One of the defining features of this Presidency has been the continued commitment to building a nonracial, nonsexist and democratic South Africa. The Millennium African Recovery Programme which our President and the president of Nigeria have developed, has brought African countries closer than ever before. African rebirth has necessitated closer co-operation and a sense of common purpose which our President has assisted in developing. Africa is now destined to conquer the challenges of the new century. The ANC supports the Vote of the Presidency. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 252: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 66: Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
ABSTENTIONS - 6: Dudley, C; Green, L M; Madasa, Z L; Meshoe, K R J; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N.
Vote No 1 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put.
The SPEAKER: Order! Declarations of vote have been requested by the DP, the ACDP and the ANC.
Declarations of vote:
Mr C W EGLIN: Madam Speaker, South Africa’s role in the international sphere has expanded enormously. Today, our country is a significant player in South-South and South-North relations as well as a recognisable voice in a number of international organisations. This has imposed increased demands on the Minister and the department that, in the face of a shortage of qualified personnel and an even greater shortage of funds, have applied themselves with energy and dedication. In his report for the year ending March 2000, the Auditor-General reported an unauthorised expenditure of nearly R36 million due to severe exchange losses. It is likely that this year it will be no better.
The problem with Government, in the field of foreign affairs, is not that it has done too little, but that it is attempting to do too much. At times, this broadside approach in foreign affairs has led to a loss of focus on our own South African priorities. At other times it has resulted in core values of democracy and human rights, to which our country is committed, being relegated to the back burner or forgotten altogether.
On balance, the pluses which the Minister and the department have earned outweigh the minuses which they have incurred. It is for this reason that the DA will be supporting the Vote. However, I would like to say a word about Zimbabwe. In this case, as in an increasing number of other foreign policy areas, the formulation of policy has shifted away from the Minister and the department to the President and the Presidency. Had the DA thought that the prime responsibility for Government policy on Zimbabwe lay with the Minister of Foreign affairs, we would certainly not have supported this Vote. This is not because of the style of diplomacy, be it quiet or noisy, but simply because over 15 months the Government’s policy on Zimbabwe has failed to achieve any tangible benefit, either for South Africa or for the people of that country. [Applause.]
Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, even though the ACDP supports this Vote, I would like to pose the following questions to the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs: What is the stance of our Government with regard to the regime of Congo (Brazzaville)? We were recently visited by the ousted elected President of that country who, later, complained before the committee that this Government is not doing enough to ensure that the military regime that is presently in government is not recognised. So, my question is: Is our policy of not recognising military regimes clear, or are we applying it in a discriminatory or nondiscriminatory way?
I submit that a leading country like ours, on issues of democracy and good governance, should promote its foreign policy indiscriminately. In this way, we shall earn the respect of everyone. Our historic links with certain organisations should not be a hinderance to promoting these principles, which underlie the MARP initiative.
Mr D J SITHOLE: Madam Speaker, in the international community, no sane person can deny that South Africa has gained a place of respect and dignity in the community of nations. The Department of Foreign Affairs, whose duty it is to protect and advance our national interest, has a budget that needs to be improved. The cynics and the pessimists sitting amongst us in the alliance of the DP and the New NP, given their history, became fearful of the leadership of the ANC in international affairs. Observers often wonder about the lip-service paid to our country by these detractors. Rather ironically, even those who belonged to the Government structures of apartheid, the leaders and soldiers of the SADF who destabilised Southern Africa, the church and business leaders who made apartheid possible, today walk down the streets of the world without fear.
The ANC-led Government of South Africa, with forbearance, succeeded in achieving this. This budget is one vehicle to strengthen our profile abroad. The only demand that we make of fellow South Africans is to share the responsibility of strengthening our image abroad. The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]
Vote No 3 agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr G A J GROBLER: Madam Speaker, the last two budget debates were overwhelmed by excuses by the hon the Minister and other speakers why not enough funds had been made available in these two budgets to the Department of Home Affairs. But taxpayers’ money will be wasted again if the hon the Minister, together with his director-general, senior officials and other personnel, do not take note of the recommendations put forward by interested parties such as the Democratic Alliance. [Laughter.]
The Public Service Commission’s report on the Batho Pele and management orders for the year 2000 is also an instrument that they must seriously give attention to. Budgeted funds for 2001-02 will be wasted again if the department does not establish systems to ensure the effective and efficient use of scarce resources. Cost-saving structures must get immediate attention. Other examples are training opportunities for personnel, effective control measures, clear reporting lines and provision for proper security measures to prevent corruption in the department.
The Department of Home Affairs is one of the departments that is already overspending on its personnel budget because it has a lot of disciplinary personnel. The hon the Minister should see to it that this gets serious attention, something that the Democratic Alliance has pleaded for for many years.
‘n Senior amptenaar het onlangs opgemerk dat die departement ‘n siek mens is wat dringend aandag nodig het. Die DA is inderdaad bekommerd oor die toestande wat tans in dié departement heers. Tekens van herstel is egter wel waarneembaar. Die DA sal te alle tye alle positiewe pogings steun om dié departement, wat so ‘n belangrike rol in ons land se administrasie speel, te help slaag. Agb Minister Buthelezi moet egter die erns van die saak begin besef en verantwoordelikheid aanvaar vir die mislukkings van sy departement. Die skuld moet nie op die skouers van die amptenare geplaas word nie. Die ontsnappingsroete om die skuld op die amptenare te plaas, is in navolging van sy ANC-kollegas.
Ons steun nie die begrotingspos nie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[A senior official recently remarked that the department was a sick person that urgently needed attention. The DA is indeed worried about the circumstances that currently prevail in this department. Signs of recovery are, however, observable.
The DA will at all times support all positive attempts to help this department, that plays such a vital role in our country’s administration, to succeed. Hon Minister Buthelezi must however start to realise the seriousness of the situation and must accept responsibility for the failures of his department. The blame should not be placed on the shoulders of the officials. He is emulating his ANC colleagues, by resorting to the escape route of blaming the officials.
We do not support the Vote. [Applause.]]
Prince N E ZULU: Madam Speaker, insufficient funding of this department has steadily brought it to the brink of a 20% staff shortage. This shortage is seriously manifested at our ports of entry into the country. Whether one arrives by road, by air or by boat, this shortage is apparent.
Service delivery is achieved primarily through the hard work and dedication of some of our officials. Even when it hurts, they continue working hard until that particular service is delivered. This scenario surely cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely, otherwise the country is risking losing its image and reputation in the eyes of our potential foreign investors.
Nevertheless, the IFP supports the Vote for the sake of continuity of services to our citizens and international visitors. To remind the House, the debate recently has been highlighting the budget for this department as inso yenyoni, inso yenyoni, inso yenyoni [a bird’s kidney].
Mr F BEUKMAN: Madam Speaker, we need a well-funded civic affairs department for all the people. The Minister of Finance and the Treasury do not recognise that. The DA again says that we need a well-funded civic affairs department for all the people. We need an upgraded population register for all. We need an upgraded movement control system for all the people. We need the computerisation of regional offices for all the people.
What happened in this budget? Unfunded priorities amount to a shortfall of R100 billion. The 2002 budget allocation to the department has decreased by 5,9% if staff expenditure and transfer payments are excluded. The Minister of Finance is actually saying ``civic affairs services for some of the people but not for all the people’’.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I can speak for myself.
Mnr F BEUKMAN: Die DA is van mening dat hierdie begroting in der waarheid die amptenare van die departement en die betrokke Minister in die steek laat. Verder, 15% van die 1 064 doeaneposte is weens ‘n geldtekort vakant. ‘n Bedrag van R10 miljoen wat vir opleiding van amptenare aangevra is, is deur die Minister geweier. Ons sal ons verantwoordelikheid teenoor miljoene Suid-Afrikaners en die amptenare wat hierdie departement dien, ontduik indien ons die begrotingspos steun. Die mense van Suid-Afrika verdien beter. Die amptenare van die departement verdien beter.
Dit het ook tyd geword dat die Minister van Finansies die nodige prioriteit aan binnelandse sake gee. ‘n Senior Minister soos Dr Buthelezi met die werklas van die departement, kan nie jaar na jaar oor die hoof gesien word as dit by prioriteite kom nie. Die begroting sê: burgerlike dienste net vir sommige en nie vir al die mense nie. Die DA sê: Burgerlike dienste vir al die mense. Ons kan ongelukkig nie die begrotingspos steun nie. Dit moet vir al die mense wees. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr F BEUKMAN: The DA is of the opinion that this budget is in fact failing the officials of the department and the relevant Minister. Furthermore, 15% of the 1 064 customs posts are vacant as a result of a shortage of money. An amount of R10 million, which was requested for the training of officials, was refused by the Minister. We would be shirking our responsibility towards millions of South Africans and the officials who serve this department if we supported this Vote. The people of South Africa deserve better. The officials of the department deserve better.
The time has also now come for the Minister of Finance to give the necessary priority to Home Affairs. A senior Minister such as Dr Buthelezi, with the workload of the department, cannot be ignored year after year when it comes to priorities. The budget says: civic affairs services for some of the people but not for all the people. The DA says: civic affairs services for all the people. Unfortunately we cannot support this Vote. It should be for all the people.]
Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, the UDM will not support the Vote of the Department of Home Affairs. Despite the many managerial, staff and structural problems within the department, the UDM believes that these cannot be addressed through willpower and determination alone. Each year more and more delivery is expected from the department, without the accompanying financial resources. The poorest of the poor, those in rural areas, are still denied access to the civic affairs services of the department. Improvement in this situation appears highly unlikely with these budget constraints. The new Immigration Bill will further increase the pressure on the Department of Home Affairs.
The UDM believes that with an inadequate budget such as the one before the House, the department will not be able to deliver on expectations. The Department of Home Affairs forms the administrative backbone of Government and many of its service delivery departments. The UDM cannot support a Vote that could lead to the collapse of the department and impact negatively on those who closely co-operate with and depend on the information that they receive from the Department of Home Affairs.
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, I am sure all members were moved by the call of the director-general and the Minister for more funds to assist their department in carrying out its functions properly. It is patently clear that this department is underfunded. We are all aware of the flood of illegal immigrants to South Africa, yet the cries of the department for greater financial assistance go unheeded. It is apparent from the portfolio committee’s report on the national study tour published this week that the department is experiencing a financial crisis.
The portfolio committee ascertained that there was a severe shortage of personnel which resulted in long queues at airports, inadequate law enforcement by immigration staff and severe problems at border control posts. A further area highlighted was the fraud and corruption at border posts, aggravated by officials’ low salaries and insufficient systems to stop organised crime. The abuse of incentive schemes for exports is aggravated by the collusion of officials. The border posts are totally inadequate to prevent illegal border crossings and much of the department’s budget is spent on repatriating illegal immigrants. I trust that the coming study tour to SADC countries will enable the portfolio committee to recommend a new framework for migration control in the region.
Whilst we appreciate that there are many committed and dedicated officials in the department, the ACDP will unfortunately not support this Vote mainly because it is totally inadequate for the department to fulfil its crucial functions in South Africa.
Mr D A MOKOENA: Madam Speaker, hon members, I rise here to support Vote No 4: Home Affairs, on behalf of the ANC. The Government in its wisdom has set up the Public Service Commission to evaluate the performance of various departments in respect of service delivery and has formulated the Batho Pele principle. This involves 130 departments; but, because it would be a herculean task to deal with all of them, focus has fallen on Home Affairs as a pilot project.
Home Affairs, as we all know, is the bedrock of our country. It takes care
of one from the cradle to the grave. The Batho Pele principle, as we all
know means people first''. However, because the wordpele’’ has been
subjected to wrong pronunciation by those people who are not familiar with
the pronunciation of African languages, grammar and phonetics, I wish to
take members through a short course on phonetics and semantics, in respect
of the pronunciation of this word. [Laughter.] The word pele'',
pronounced aspele’’ is a geographical demonstrative pronoun which means
``in front’’.
However, the actual meaning is pele'' which is an adverb which means
first’’, and I would like all the hon members, because this is an
official policy of the Government, to pronounce it properly. Some people
say, pili'', others say,phele’’, and others say pillay'', and I am
sure Mr Pillay will be very happy about that pronunciation. [Applause.] The
proper pronunciation ispele’’, which means first''. I urge members to
join us all in Home Affairs in pronouncing it properly and saypele!’’
HON MEMBERS: Pele!
Mr D A MOKOENA: Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen! We love you! [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! [Interjections.] Order!
HON MEMBERS: Pele! [Laughter.] Pele! [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Order! I agree entirely. First: Order!
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 245: Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 74: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Koornhof, G W; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; Maseka, J T; McIntosh, G B D; Meshoe, K R J; Mkono, D G; Mndende, O N; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mothiba, L C; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Ramodike, M N; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Waters, M.
ABSTENTION - 1: Schoeman, R S.
Vote No 4 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mrs G M BORMAN: Madam Speaker, on Friday night, President Mbeki was fielding questions from the nation. Hundreds of e-mails and faxes concerning the lack of service delivery and the wasteful spending by mayors were first on the list. What was he doing about it? He could not interfere, he said, because the Constitution recognises that South Africa has three spheres of government which act independently of one another. [Interjections.]
Meanwhile, the President has interfered in the functioning of local government. He vetted all the ANC mayoral candidates. This weekend the ANC in the North West issued a directive to all councils to the effect that the appointment of municipal managers would not be finalised before consultation with the deployment committee. Direct interference is okay until it comes to disciplining mayors who are spending freely on cars, houses, gardens, bodyguards, staff and so on, whilst neglecting service delivery to the people.
In addition to this, we have just restructured local government, and we do not know which municipalities are viable. We hear the Seta training is ineffective and it should be building capacity, which is a top priority if we want to strengthen local government and get it working properly with sustainable service delivery to all the people.
We applaud the department for having completed their restructuring, for their exciting plans for urban renewal, for the budget provided to assist in the amalgamation of municipalities and services. [Interjections.] However, until the ANC is prepared to get rid of corruption and stop the profligate waste of public funds, local government will flounder from crisis to crisis and service delivery will not happen.
The DP and the DA therefore cannot support the budget. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr P F SMITH: Madam Speaker, there is much that this department does that is highly positive, and to that extent we have no difficulty whatsoever in supporting it. Indeed, we will be supporting the Vote today. However, in the debate on the Vote, we indicated our displeasure at the highly unpalatable behaviour of the Ministry in respect of the relationship between traditional leaders and local government.
What more is there to say than to repeat our view that the actions of the Ministry have not been simply unacceptable, but, far worse, have been despicable? If one looks at what this Government is doing - or, more correctly, at what it is not doing, and what it is refusing to do - one is forced to reach some rather unfortunate conclusions.
Amongst them are the following: that, though the Government made a solemn promise to traditional leaders, the executive appears to have no qualms whatsoever about subsequently breaking that promise; indeed, that the promise was perhaps even deliberately made in the full knowledge that it would not be honoured later on; that the notion of honour has little if any meaning; that, far from being his bond, a man’s word is worth less than the air breathed in speaking it; and, indeed, that expediency alone is worshipped at Pretoria’s altar of Machiavellian governance.
Let it not be forgotten that this represents the second great betrayal by the executive on the same matter. Who will ever forget the pre-election agreement in 1994 that this Government broke? Government’s behaviour is nothing less than shocking, and we condemn it utterly. But there is still time for the executive to save the day and to salvage its honour; to do what is right and to do what it promised to do. All will be forgiven if that is the case, but if it is not done, history will recall the actions of the responsible members of this executive as the actions of rogues and scoundrels. The choice is yours. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mevrou die Speaker, die FA en ook die DA kan nie hierdie Minister se begroting steun nie, omdat dit die ANC-beleid bevorder wat die agteruitgang van ANC-beheerde provinsies en plaaslike owerhede bewerkstellig. Die Ouditeur-generaal se verslag van 19 Junie vertel die hele verhaal van die chaos en wanbestuur wat in ANC-munisipaliteite en- provinsies heers. Ongemagtigde uitgawes by provinsies het verlede jaar gestyg van R158 miljoen tot R198 miljoen. Die finansiële posisie van plaaslike bestuur het versleg omdat die ANC nie daarin slaag om mense vir dienste te laat betaal nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, neither the FA nor the DA can support this Minister’s budget, because it promotes the ANC policy which is causing the deterioration of ANC-controlled provinces and local governments. The Auditor-General’s report of 19 June tells the whole story of the chaos and mismanagement which prevails in ANC municipalities and ANC provinces. Last year unauthorised expenditure by provinces rose from R158 million to R198 million. The financial position of local government deteriorated because the ANC is not succeeding in getting people to pay for services.]
On top of this, only 31% of town councils have submitted last year’s financial reports to the Auditor-General, and 17% are still outstanding for the previous year. Over and above that, all these local authorities owe the Auditor-General R14 million, which is nearly twice the amount of the previous year, for auditing their books. Despite this chaotic financial situation, the ANC does not seem to be able to control their provincial and local government colleagues when it comes to wasting the taxpayer’s money.
Every week there are newspaper reports about the extravagance and incompetence in this field of governance. [Interjections.] If this ill- management was prevalent in only a few administrations, then one could have argued that Government is not responsible, but because the epidemic is present in all ANC-led administrations, we cannot but blame the ANC Minister and his department for not addressing and solving the problem. The FA and the DA will vote against the Vote.
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mev die Speaker, daar is vyf goeie redes waarom die AEB nie vir hierdie begrotingspos kan stem nie. In die eerste plek is ons gekant teen makromunisipaliteite wat al hoe groter word. Dit neem plaaslike regering verder van die mense af en maak plaaslike deelname al hoe moeiliker. Oorsee is dit ook aangewend en daarná het hulle maar weer die ``undo’‘-knoppie gedruk en kleiner munisipaliteite ingestel.
Tweedens is ons ten gunste van desentralisasie, en die wyse waarop politieke partye vandag plaaslike regering van bo af sentraliseer, is kontraproduktief. Derdens is die luukse besteding op grondvlak deur munisipaliteite en burgemeesters aan groot voertuie en ander luukshede eenvoudig nie in belang van plaaslike regering nie.
Dan is daar die twee belangrike sake. Die saak van die bevoegdhede van tradisionele leiers is nog steeds nie opgelos nie. Hierin steun ek ten volle die betoog wat deur die IVP-lid aangevoer is. Verskeie beloftes oor die saak is gedoen en nog nie een daarvan is nagekom nie. ‘n Fopspeen is verlede jaar tydens die plaaslike verkiesing aan die amakhosi gegee om hulle soet te hou, en nog steeds is daardie beloftes nie nagekom nie. In die vyfde plek is daar die artikel 185-kommissie wat nou ná hóéveel jaar nog steeds nie die lig gesien het nie. Daar is verlede jaar beloof dit kom, en ons het nog steeds niks daarvan gekry nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, there are five good reasons why the AEB cannot support this Vote. Firstly, we are opposed to macro-municipalities which are becoming ever larger. It takes local government further away from the people and makes local participation increasingly difficult. This was implemented overseas, but after a while they had to press the ``undo’’ button and establish smaller municipalities.
Secondly, we are in favour of decentralisation, and the manner in which political parties are centralising local government from the top today is counter-productive. Thirdly, the luxurious expenditure at grass-roots level by municipalities and mayors to acquire big motor vehicles and other luxuries is simply not in the interest of local government.
Then there are two important matters. The matter of the powers of traditional leaders has still not been resolved. In this regard I fully support the argument advanced by the IFP member. Many promises have been made about this matter but not one has been honoured. Last year during the local elections the amakhosi were pacified to keep them happy but still those promises have still not been kept.
Fifthly, there is the section 185 commission which after so many years has still not seen the light. Last year we were promised that it was coming and thus far we have still not seen any sign of it.]
The Minister did not even mention anything about the section 185 commission in his speech.
Weens hierdie sake wat nie gehanteer word nie, wat van kardinale belang is, kan ons nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. [As a result of these matters that are not being dealt with, which are of cardinal importance, we cannot support this Vote.]
Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Speaker, comrades and friends, this opposition from Gloria Borman and the DA is just opposition for opposition’s sake. The crisis of opposition … [Interjections.] She did, in fact, say that in the Vote debate two weeks ago and, frankly, it is more than tiresome. [Interjections.]
But, in fact, the department has an increased budget, and it is now on a much better footing to contribute to advancing democracy, delivery and development and R4,2 billion has been allocated to it. In fact, it represents a 6,3% increase in real terms since last. Over the MTEF period it will increase to 29,2%.
There is also a 12,3% increase in real terms in the local government equitable share which all of us, whatever party we come from, wanted. In fact, there was a remarkable and significant increase of 52,4% over the MTEF period. The department has completed its restructuring process, and the relationship between its objectives and internal structures is much tighter now. It is much more focused and directed in its activities, and even the opposition parties have acknowledged this in our budget hearings. Furthermore, the department has taken responsibility for co-ordinating the major flagship programmes of integrated sustainable rural development and urban renewal. In response to Gloria Borman, I need to point out that Peter Marais, from her very own DA-led municipality, is at this very moment outside this country, I think in Bordeaux, or wherever it is, drinking wine, at huge cost, and the member does not mention that. However, it is true to say that some of these costs are legitimate; others are not. In fact, national and provincial government are increasingly paying attention to that.
I also need to point out that our traditional leaders Bill is pending. It is, in fact, meant to come to Parliament well before 20 August when we reconvene. But again, it is only an interim Bill and it is part of a rather long and elaborate process of addressing issues. So what is the hassle really? Where is the substance in opposing this Vote?
Finally, we consistently hold that our oversight role as MPs does not reside in just folding our arms smugly here in Parliament and condemning the Ministry and department. It also resides crucially in getting down, through our constituency and other work, to implementing the programme of this Government. But that is asking too much of the DA. [Interjections.] We support this budget. We welcome it and we in the ANC commit ourselves to playing our role in fulfilling it. [Applause.]
Mr A C NEL: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I request that you rule on the hon Mr Smith’s reference to members of the executive as rogues and scoundrels.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Mr Smith, did you say that?
Mr P F SMITH: Madam Speaker, on that point, I did not say they were rogues and scoundrels. I said if they do not honour their promises they will go down in history as rogues and scoundrels. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, I will check that in the Hansard. I accept that is Mr Smith’s statement.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 259: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Madlala-Routledge, W C; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 66: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Vote No 5 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and Federal Alliance dissenting)
Vote No 7 - National Treasury - put and agreed to.
Vote No 8 - Public Enterprises - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr R J HEINE: Madam Speaker, four pillars of corporate governance emerged in the King Report and they are: Fairness, accountability, responsibility and transparency. If these norms were applied at SAA by the boards concerned, we would not have been faced with such a mess with the consequent negative signals to local and overseas investors. Furthermore, the Department of Public Enterprises, during the financial year ending March 2000, spent a whopping R12,3 million, without adhering to correct tendering and contractual procedures, on consultants Simpson Mackey to advise them on the restructuring of state-owned enterprises.
A further R4,8 million was also spent on Real Africa Deal on advising the department on the restructuring of Alexcor, also without the correct procedures being followed. According to the Minister this expenditure was good value for money. On the contrary, it was an absolute waste of taxpayers’ money considering the blatant flouting of good corporate governance in the SAA debacle. The question that needs to be answered by the Government is whether they are serious about transparency and good governance.
We demands on behalf of the taxpayers and the poor people of this country, that the whole SAA matter be dealt with in an open and transparent way and may we ask: Why all of a sudden this deafening silence? Is this a making-up or is this part of another cover-up in the making? Under these circumstances, the DA cannot support this Vote.
Mr M D MSOMI: Madam Speaker, the IFP has been preaching, begging for and supporting a decisive victory on the second most complicated and difficult front, that of economic and business emancipation. The Minister for Public Enterprises is a key player in the restructuring of state-owned enterprises and represents the Government as a shareholder in most of these enterprises. We have scrutinised the budget. There has been no budget allocation that has been an indicator of the Government’s seriousness to transform the business and economic sector for the benefit of the historically disadvantaged communities.
General guidelines have been developed in a case by case state-owned enterprise without firm principles and procedures for effective black economic participation across the board. Strategic investor participation and shareholding has been very much in favour of foreign investors, less for local South African black businessmen and business women. The black economic fund has provided a general framework. The Departments of Trade and Industry, Finance and Public Enterprises have left the process in its infancy for too long without a clear budgetary allocation for capacity- building and early warning systems to be activated for the black economic entities to be in readiness to access the business and economic opportunities created by the democratically elected Government.
Whilst the IFP supports this Vote, it is important that we should now take cognisance of the fact that the economic cake has been too much in favour of Gauteng. Let us now ``deGautengise’’ black economic development and access economic and business opportunities, and build capacity on a region by region basis in order to benefit those who were historically disadvantaged. We need to spread this in the form of budgetary allocations in order to ensure that even the region where the Minister and I come from benefits from the economic cake. This would be more meaningful to him than to most.
Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Madam Speaker, in his budget speech, the Minister acknowledged that one of the biggest challenges facing the country, is to attain sustainable economic growth and development. To achieve its objectives, the Government should be very clear on the principles it wishes to apply in order to achieve its goal, which it obviously is not.
The Minister tried to explain what the restructuring process should comprise, but it is obvious that he is still not sure where privatisation fits in. This can only be because the Government is still not willing to take a firm stand against Cosatu.
The concept of co-operative governance is fundamental to achieving success in the restructuring process of state-owned enterprises. Let us once again ask a few question regarding the department’s performance, specifically over the last few weeks.
How successful has the Ministry been in fulfilling its role as the accountable oversight functionary in terms of the following: Firstly, guardianship of state-owned interests and assets; secondly, ensuring that all entities have a capability to function effectively and efficiently; thirdly, monitoring financial and socio economic performance; and fourthly, guaranteeing delivery on the Government’s social and economic programmes?
The department is not taking ownership of and responsibility for the processes by which the various entities are supposed to be directed, controlled and held to account. The Minister did not take up his responsibility to protect the people of the country against exploitation. He is responsible for ensuring that taxpayers’ money is well spent, and this is not happening. Therefore, the NNP and the DA cannot support the budget.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the ACDP is normally an enthusiastic supporter of privatisation and public-private partnerships, in the interest of making service providers more efficient and reducing the cost of services.
However, we are concerned in the case of Eskom, which is one of the oldest, largest and most successful power supply companies in the world, and remains central to the development of the regional economy and the improvement of the life circumstances of all our people. Privatisation will inevitably lead to higher tariffs, and we believe that individual consumers should be called onto ask for their opinion. Why are we trying to fix something which is not broken when so much else needs our attention?
Secondly, the controversy surrounding the remuneration package of Coleman Andrews, the former president and chief executive of SAA and SAA’s recent decision to upgrade its regional fleet with boeings rather than airbuses, has raised many questions in the minds of taxpaying South Africans. Processes followed in the decision to acquire boeing aircraft rather than airbuses, are being questioned, especially since the commonly held view is that the airbus route would have been the way to go as pool pilot arrangements now become problematic. This decision is clearly not in line with any natural evolution of the airline.
In the Defence hearings it was suggested that the Government does not have the skill to negotiate large, complex deals. Surely, huge long-term decisions with far-reaching financial and structural consequences are not left in the hands of a few relatively inexperienced officials without being reviewed by an expert body. Is this decision in the best interests of all stakeholders and if not, do we really have to stick to it? Have we had legal opinion? Have we appealed to Boeing?
Lastly, commuters are saying that trains are now as deadly as taxis. Crime and accidents have become the norm. This impacts negatively on our economy. South Africans and visitors alike are becoming more and more apprehensive about commuting. The ACDP will abstain on this Vote.
Mr S T BELOT: Madam Speaker, I rise to support Vote No 8 on behalf of the ANC. The policy with regard to public enterprises is restructuring. In restructuring state-owned enterprises, the department has made significant progress and has to be supported by all.
To mention a few, we could say that there has been a proactive communication strategy to ensure that organised labour, the management of state-owned enterprises, Sisa and potential investors are taken on board. There are financial management systems in place that have already resulted in a more favourable audit report. This leaves no room for the mismanagement of funds and maladministration, as alleged.
Since the introduction of the accelerated restructuring strategy, there has been progress, as seen in Eskom conversion B. The department has succeeded with the Transnet Pension Fund debt burden by making sure that the bleeding of that state-owned enterprise stops.
The department is guided by the National Framework Agreement and the Labour Relations Act. These are clear policies and procedures for consultation with labour as spelled out in the social plan. Finally, the department will not be bulldozed into the selling of state-owned enterprises. It will look for what is strategic and take those strategic equity partners.
We support the Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 254: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, S F; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka,N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 69: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Mogoba, M S; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mothiba, L C; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pheko, S E M; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
ABSTENTIONS - 6: Dudley, C; Green, L M; Madasa, Z L; Meshoe, K R J; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N.
Vote No 8 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 9 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.
Vote No 10 - Public Service Commission - put and agreed to.
Vote No 11 - SA Management Development Institute - put and agreed to.
Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa - put and agreed to.
Vote No 13 - Arts, Culture, Science and Technology - put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, the IFP supports Vote 13.
Today in South Africa, there is no enforced cultural hegemony of one group over another. All South Africans are free to express themselves culturally, artistically, and to go to cinemas, the opera and theatres as free and dignified human beings. Black and brown people, after centuries of cultural and political oppression, can now claim their own birthright and enjoy their freedom as equal citizens and dignified human beings.
For white people also, there is no longer any need to keep themselves in an ever narrowing laager. Black, brown and white interests can now be advanced along a common front through the aims and objectives of the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology.
The process of spreading the butter thinly means that certain art forms have had to settle for less than before. This cannot be a matter of contention in the new democracy. Those who had it all cannot, in all honesty and decency, ask for all the butter this season.
The Bourbon kings of France provided the classic example of those who learnt nothing and forgot nothing. For us as a country, there is no returning to the past. We shall all share, and until we can increase the quantity of the butter, it will be thinly spread for everyone. The IFP is committed to this fairness and morality. We therefore support Vote No 13. [Applause.]
Vote No 13 agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 14 - Education - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr R S NTULI: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, and hon members, irrespective of party-political affiliations, we have a common desire to provide the best possible education for our children. In this context, the Freedom Charter states, and I quote:
The doors of learning and culture shall be open to all.
However, we need to be careful that the opened doors should not let in HIV/Aids, low teacher morale, curricular confusion and crime.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, there is too much talking and moving around. Can members just settle down?
Mr R S NTULI: Madam Speaker, the DP does not support this Vote because of inefficient and ineffective school management and general discipline in our centres of learning. We recognise the improvement made by the department, but there is a long way to go. The recruitment of much-needed teachers in subjects such as maths, science and technology is low.
There is confusion and uncertainty among the ranks of teachers concerning Curriculum 2005 and OBE. Support materials in schools in this regard are very inadequate. The quality of schooling is not improving in ordinary public schools, hence the pressure on former Model C schools to admit children from black townships. Underpinning most of these problems is the general lack of managing capacity at district and circuit levels to offer the necessary support and guidance to teachers and learners.
For these reasons, the DP cannot support the Vote.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, if there is an area where the Education Ministry has excelled, it is in the area of policy formulation. However, the gap between policy formulation and implementation is widening. The implementation of Curriculum 2005 is floundering on the rocks of infrastructural inadequacies and budgetary deficiencies.
This current financial year, the KwaZulu-Natal department of education has, for instance, been funded at 38%, below the recommended equitable share formula of 40%. As a result it still has the highest educator-learner ratio of 1:38. This has had a destructive effect on teaching and learning. Please give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.
Given the reality of our situation, what is required, I believe, is a slowdown of new policy formulation and prioritisation of what can be delivered, how it can be delivered, and how it can be funded. Provinces are burdened with too many unfunded mandates. We need more money for the training of governing bodies, so that they can be entrusted with decision- making and the efficient running of schools.
Drug abuse is a major problem facing both teachers and parents. Governing bodies must be assisted in their fight against drug abuse. In abnormal situations governing bodies have resorted to what under normal circumstances could be regarded as acting unconstitutionally, namely drug testing. We need to restore the culture of teaching and learning.
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Madam Speaker, we will not support the Vote on Education for the following reasons. Firstly, according to the World Bank report, there is a remarkably low correlation between the amount of state money spent on education in South Africa and the quality of results of that expenditure. We spend a larger share of our GDP, 6,9%, than the vast majority of other nations, but we get a dismally poor return for our money. Forty-three per cent of matriculants failed their examination last year and only 14% got exemptions. That is simply not good enough.
Secondly, Fanyana Mazibuko, a veteran of the 1976 Soweto uprisings, writes in The Sunday Independent: ``Right now I do not feel happy with what I see in our education. In those high schools where the majority of black pupils go, resources are appalling.’’ In this regard the national business initiative pointed out that in the developing world, for example, teacher- pupil ratios and per capita spending continue to make little difference. Teacher education and school facilities can substantially improve the quality of education output. In South Africa this is not happening.
Terwyl 85 000 onderwysers nog steeds ongekwalifiseerd is en terwyl daar steeds ‘n ernstige gebrek aan geriewe by baie skole bestaan, kan ons hierdie begrotingspos nie steun nie. [While 85 000 teachers remain unqualified and while we still have a serious lack of facilities at many schools, we cannot support this Vote.]
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and members, although the ACDP supports this Vote, we nevertheless want to bring to the attention of the Minister and his department that we are concerned that two key priorities of the Tirisano strategic plan of action are not receiving adequate funding from Government, namely to make schools centres for community life and to improve the maintenance and rehabilitation of schools. I have visited several schools during constituency weeks and I have found several of them in an acute state of disrepair, especially those schools in townships such as Bonteheuwel, Gugulethu, Hanover Park, Bishop Lavis, Heideveld, Lavender Hill, Manenberg, Mitchells Plain and several others.
We welcome the R48 million that has been allocated for rural school- building projects for the 2001-02 financial year, but this is not enough. There are many rural schools which are in a severe state of disrepair and this should be the first responsibility of the Government. Why should we spend R48 million to establish nine pilot schools in rural areas, while hundreds of existing rural schools do not receive adequate funding? An example of this is the Attie Van Wyk Primary School on a farm in Durbanville that has over 90 children with only one teacher and a principal. It is these concerns that we would like to raise here.
Dr P W A MULDER: Mev die Speaker, enige studie van hoe minderheidsregte internasionaal toegepas word, dui aan dat onderwys een van die belangrikste kwessies is vir minderheidsgroepe. Tans is daar baie onsekerhede ten opsigte van die onderwys gesien uit die perspektief van minderheidsgroepe, en spesifiek dan ook uit die Afrikaanse perspektief.
Ons wil tog die indruk kry dat die Minister permanent besig is met die 5% Afrikaanse skole en nie altyd bekommerd is oor al die ander skole nie. Die VF het ‘n goeie gesprek met die Minister gehad oor die belangrikheid om Afrikaans as ‘n universiteitstaal en onderrigtaal te behou. Tog is daar nog geen duidelikheid oor wat van Afrikaanse universiteite gaan word nie. Aangesien daar nie duidelikheid hieroor is nie, kan die VF nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie.
Die Minister het ook aangekondig dat die name van skole verander moet word. Dit is nie vir ons duidelik wat die riglyn by die verandering van name is nie. Hansie Cronjé en Kepler Wessels is trotse oudleerlinge van Grey College in Bloemfontein. Sekerlik moet Grey College se naam ook verander word, want dit is ‘n ou koloniale Britse goewerneur waarna hy vernoem is. So ook Queen’s College, wat vernoem is na die destydse Britse koningin.
In Klerksdorp is daar ‘n Milner High School. Lord Milner het die Anglo- Boereoorlog veroorsaak en ons hou nie baie van Milner nie, en dan moet daardie naam eintlik ook verander word. Watter riglyn gaan die Minister neerlê as hy begin name verander? Is dit net op Afrikanergeskiedenis van toepassing of sluit dit Britse koloniale geskiedenis in? Hoe wyd gaan ons die ding doen?
‘n AGB LID: Net ANC-name!
Dr P W A MULDER: Net ANC-name? Ek hoor dit, en ek het so gedink, maar ek was bang om dit te sê!
In die lig van al hierdie onduidelikhede maak die VF beswaar teen hierdie begrotingspos. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, any study of how the rights of minorities are applied internationally indicates that education is one of the most important issues for minority groups. Currently, there are many uncertainties with regard to education viewed from the perspective of minority groups, and specifically from the Afrikaans perspective. We do, however, tend to gain the impression that the Minister is constantly involved with the 5% of Afrikaans schools and is not always concerned about all the other schools. The FF had a good discussion with the Minister about the importance of retaining Afrikaans as a university language and language of instruction. However, there is still no clarity about what will happen to Afrikaans universities. Considering that there is no clarity about this, the FF cannot support this Vote.
The Minister also announced that the names of schools must be changed. It is not clear to us what the guidelines are with regard to the changing of names. Hansie Cronjé and Kepler Wessels are proud old boys of Grey College in Bloemfontein. Surely Grey College’s name must also change, because it is named after an old British colonial governor. The same applies to Queen’s College, which is named after the then British queen.
In Klerksdorp there is a Milner High School. Lord Milner caused the Boer War and we do not like Milner very much, and so that name should actually also change. What guideline will the Minister provide when he begins changing names? Is it only applicable to Afrikaner history or does it include British colonial history? How broadly are we going to approach this issue?
An HON MEMBER: Only ANC names!
Dr P W A MULDER: Only ANC names? I hear that, and I thought as much, but was afraid to say so!
In the light of all these unclear aspects, the FF objects to this Vote. [Interjections.]]
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, we have a very active and enthusiastic Minister of Education and we appreciate this. We appreciate the noise made by the Deputy Minister recently on the promotion of maths and science in education, and his honest introspection when he stated that the struggle also had negative effects on education and his emphasis on mother-tongue education.
Ons het egter nog ‘n groot probleem, en dit is dat die onderwys aangewend word as instrument vir wat niks met die onderwys te doen het nie, maar baie met ander doeleindes. Hier verwys ek na die ``mind control’’ wat die Minister op ons kinders wil toepas asof hulle aan die sStaat behoort. Ek wil ‘n paar voorbeelde daarvan noem as redes waarom ons nie hierdie begrotingspos kan steun nie.
Eerstens is die naamsveranderings deur my kollega genoem. Dit lyk of ons geskiedenis só gekontamineer is dat dit totaal uitgewis moet word. Verder is daar die hoëronderwysplan waarvolgens dit vir ons lyk asof die outonomie van hoëronderwysinrigtings sterk in gedrag gaan kom. Dan is die hele kwessie omtrent godsdiensonderrig op skool hoegenaamd nie vir ons aanvaarbaar nie. Ons is bang vir ‘n multi-religieuse ``new age’‘-tipe onderrig waaraan ons kinders blootgestel gaan word.
Verder is daar ook die onlangse klanke, veral van Gauteng af, dat 50% van alle onderwysers teen 2005 aan ‘n raskwota moet voldoen. Ons sien dat die magte van bestuursliggame al hoe meer aangetas word. Dan het ons ook ‘n probleem daarmee dat die Minister alles wat met vrye assosiasie te doen het, sien as ongrondwetlik. Ons wil vra dat die Minister fokus op die infrastruktuur en op die skep van ‘n klimaat vir goeie onderrig, maar dat hierdie toepassing van ``mind control’’ op ons kinders laat vaar word.
Laastens is daar ook die feit dat private skole totaal afgeskeep word en dat die subsidiëringsformule dit feitlik onmoontlik maak om staatshulp te kry. Ons sien dit ook as ‘n poging van die Regering om sy mag oor al die kinders uit te brei deur hulle te verplig om staatskole by te woon. Ons sal nie hierdie begrotingspos kan steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[However, we still have a big problem, and that is that education is being used as an instrument for something which has nothing to do with education, but a great deal to do with other objectives. Here I am referring to the ``mind control’’ which the Minister wants to exert over children as though they belonged to the state. I want to mention a few examples of this as reasons why we cannot support this Vote.
Firstly, we have the name changes mentioned by my colleague. It appears that our history is so contaminated that it must be totally eradicated. Then there is the higher education plan in terms of which it appears that the autonomy of institutions of higher education is going to be severely jeopardised. Then the entire question regarding religious instruction at schools is not at all acceptable to us. We are afraid of a multireligious ``new age’’ type of education to which our children will be exposed.
Furthermore, there are also the recent noises, particularly from Gauteng, that 50% of all teachers must meet a racial quota by 2005. We see the powers of governing bodies being increasingly tampered with. Then we also have a problem with the fact that the Minister regards everything to do with freedom of association as unconstitutional. We want to ask the Minister to focus on the infrastructure and on the creation of a climate for sound education, but this exerting of ``mind control’’ on our children should be abandoned.
Finally, there is also the fact that private schools are being totally neglected and that the subsidy formula makes it virtually impossible to obtain state assistance. We also view this as an attempt on the part of the Government to extend its power over all children by compelling them to attend state schools. We will not be able to support this Vote.]
Prof S M MAYATHULA: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports Vote 14. There is a saying: ``If you fail to plan you are planning to fail.’’ In the presentation of his Vote entitled Turning our Mogomotsi into Rutasetjhaba, on 24 May, the hon the Minister, Prof Kader Asmal, showed in no uncertain terms that not only does the department have a missionary vision, but it also has a plan to implement it.
I table before this hon House three important documents: Education
Statistics in South Africa at a Glance'',Education: SA Achievements
since 1994’’ and ``Implementation Plan for Tirisano 2001-2002’’. Nobody in
his or her right mind can deny that, under trying circumstances, the
Department of Education has made great strides. I invite hon members and
the public at large to read about the achievements of the department as
contained in the documents referred to above.
The ``Implementation Plan for Tirisano’’, also referred to above, spells out in detail strategic objectives, activities, outputs and timeframes in terms of the Public Finance Management Act. To show that the department means business and that it is ready to walk tall, only yesterday it launched its mathematics, science and technology strategy, which is going to involve 100 schools. Today, as we speak, the Department of Education, in conjunction with the Department of Labour, is launching the learnership programme. The ANC-led Government is delivering. What more do we expect? [Applause.]
Vote No 14 agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party, Federal Alliance, Freedom Front and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).
Vote No 15 - Health - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I want to say right upfront that it is impossible for the DP to vote in favour of this Vote. We have a Minister, ironically at present at an Aids summit of the United Nations, who has the most dismal record in the fight against HIV/Aids. Despite the so-called famous court victory over the pharmaceutical companies nearly three months ago, she still shows a remarkable reluctance to supply antiretroviral drugs to HIV/Aids patients, including rape victims and pregnant mothers.
We have a Minister who, despite South Africa’s support for the international fight against TB, has failed to take any meaningful action to resolve the crisis in the SA National Tuberculosis Association, despite being informed in writing of the problems last year. [Interjections.] Why did Mr Momberg not go to Greece?
We have a Minister who pays lip service to the problems in rural areas and the ongoing struggle to provide an equitable, accessible and affordable health care service to the people in these areas. There are still no plans, not even on the drawing board, to train and retrain doctors in these areas.
We have a Minister who has simply shrugged her shoulders as nurses pour out of the Public Service and out of the country. We have a Minister who drags her feet on the problems of the medical aid industry, placing thousands of people at risk as she does so.
We have a Minister who in fact has done so little to improve the quality of health care in this country, that she has no option but to accept the mantle of Dr Doolittle. She is in fact a ``Minister of Inactivity’’. We want her to go out and lead and not be led, and until she does this, we simply cannot support her Vote. Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, the IFP has reservations about the way in which health delivery is structured. We have a national and provincial system that is unclear and filled with duplication. As a result, there is a lack of accountability. This leads to inefficiency and a lack of morale among health workers. In budgetary terms, this duplication complicates the disimbursement of funds.
The limited allowance for Aids goes via conditional grants and via provincial health budgets, neither of which is weighted towards those provinces with the greatest incidence of HIV/Aids. Conditional grants are affected by laborious mediocracy and are not easily rolled out.
The IFP also feels that better use should be made of funding for community workers, for nevirapine treatment for pregnant women and for assisting people to know their HIV status. The IFP nevertheless supports the Vote.
Dr S J GOUS: Madam Speaker, when considering the health budget, three items must be weighed: firstly, policy; secondly, implementation and execution of policy, and whether the tax-payer is getting value for money. It is in this respect that the Department of Health and the ANC Government are failing the public dismally. They cannot seem to get all the elements in place for a successful execution of their policy.
In fact, in many areas we are seeing almost total administrative collapse. In Gauteng, an audit of state hospitals brought to light that 94% of audited hospitals are on the brink of collapse. To put it simply, those hospitals have not been maintained. There is a blame culture with no strategic plan to ensure that money is spent effectively. It will not help to blame the previous government any more, not even the ANC believes that any more.
And, the third item is HIV/Aids. In this regard we experience a double jeopardy of not only implementation failure, but also policy failure. The ANC policy is incoherent, disjointed and, simply, not keeping pace with facts on the ground. The people on the ground who must execute this national Aids strategy are not even aware that it exists. The President’s flirtation with the Aids dissidents is probably the single most damaging factor in our fight against the epidemic. He claims that it is not important what the President thinks, but we disagree. People are looking to the President for leadership in this regard, and it is not there. In fact, it is such a low priority for the President that he does not even bother to attend the UN global summit on Aids.
The failure to implement the antiretroviral treatment, especially in mother- to-child transmission, has been likened to infanticide and satisfies all the criteria to qualify as a crime against humanity. Hon members do not have to believe me but should, simply, ask the patients on the ground what they think. The New NP and the DA will not support this budget and will vote against it.
Mr T ABRAHAMS: Madam Speaker, the UDM supports the budget, but raises its concerns.
The budget before us presents one of the central pillars of service delivery. The provision of the constitutionally guaranteed right to health for all South Africans stands central among the needs of those who were previously disadvantaged by apartheid.
No discussion on health in South Africa today would be complete if it did not recognise the pandemic of HIV/Aids that we are faced with. It has, unfortunately, also become one of the most politicised and controversial subjects in South Africa, ever since the Sarafina 2 debacle. We remain concerned that the Government and, specifically, the Department of Health are not approaching the matter from the correct policy perspective.
As long as this remains the case, the millions of rands budgeted towards this vital cause will make little or no impact, especially in the light of Government winning the court case against the pharmaceutical companies. It is time to act decisively. There are, to put it very mildly, no more excuses left. It remains a mystery how President Mbeki can go on an official state visit to the USA without attending the special UN summit on HIV/Aids. [Interjections.]
We note the argument of the department that the negative real growth in the national health budget over the next three years must be seen in the context of the completion of a few large infrastructure projects and the location of the bulk of resources by the department.
The UDM also welcomes the establishment of a public-private partnership task team in the department to provide clear guidelines and policies for public-private partnerships and to ensure consistent application in all provinces. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!
Mr T ABRAHAMS: We sincerely hope that this will bring the advantage of private sector efficiency and will in turn lead to the better use of resources and ultimately to greater value for money, as the department has argued. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!
Mr T ABRAHAMS: In spite of the huge amounts that were allocated to the construction and maintenance of clinics and hospitals … [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your time has long expired. [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, behavioural patterns in Uganda that are based on a reduction in sex partners rather than condom use are clearly related to the dramatic decline in HIV/Aids prevalence, from 21,1% to 9,1% in pregnant women and from 18% to 8% in army recruits. The effects of these interventions are equivalent to a vaccine of 80% efficacy and are available now. If this social vaccine were applied to South Africa it would avert 3,2 million infections and deaths over ten years. The ACDP calls on Government to recognise and promote this powerful social vaccine in Africa, which is not only effective and available but is also based on solutions that were developed in communities.
More than 170 000 abortions have been performed in South Africa in the past four years, and much Government funding has been used for this provision, despite the fact that most surveys indicate that the majority of South Africans are opposed to it. On the other hand, it seems that no expenditure has been provided for supporting alternatives or for the provision of information regarding alternatives. What a gross injustice! Of the more than 170 000 aborted babies, how many of their mothers really had a choice? If we genuinely cared about the dilemma of these women, we would have provided genuine choices. Their desperation does not deserve the callous response of the disposal clinic on every corner.
Abortions after 12 weeks still account for almost one third of abortions. Twenty-four days after conception, a baby’s heart begins to beat. By six weeks brain waves can be recorded and by eight weeks every organ is present. By between nine and twelve weeks the baby will bend its finger around objects, suck its thumb, is sensitive to touch, squirms, swallows, frowns, smiles and urinates. By twelve weeks the baby is a distinct individual and begins practising breathing.
Until this Government has the courage to admit its errors and stops spending taxpayers’ money on the irresponsible promotion of condoms, licentious lifestyles and human slaughterhouses, and puts in place policies which promote life and not death in South Africa, the ACDP has no option but to vote against the Health budget. [Applause.]
Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, the PAC would have supported this Vote but will recall this declaration because of the feeling of our nation on the question of antiretroviral drugs. Although we understand the technical concerns, our view is that we are dealing with a matter of life and death. The department and the President are always negative and behave as if the nation is not in danger. The department should deal with HIV/Aids in the same resolute way that they have dealt with the cholera outbreak. War is war; death is death. There should be no time for rhetoric or clever scholarship. The nation must be mobilised and put on a war footing.
Dr P W A MULDER: Mev die Speaker, Suid-Afrika word deur die Verenigde Nasies aangedui as die land waar die MIV/Vigs-pandemie die ergste afmetings aanneem. Daar is steeds groot verwarring in Suid-Afrikaanse regeringskringe oor presies hoe en waar dié saak aangepak moet word. Alvorens dit nie duidelik is nie, gaan die probleem nie aangepak word nie en gaan ons probleem al groter en groter word.
Baie beloftes is in hierdie Huis gemaak oor die verbetering van gesondheidsdienste en goedkoper medisyne. Dit is die toets wat ‘n mens namens die kiesers aanlê, of mens vir die voorstel kan stem al dan nie. Waar ons vandag staan, is dit duidelik dat medisyne steeds duurder word en dat mediese dienste by baie belangrike hospitale swakker word en nie beter nie. ‘n Onlangse televisieprogram oor mediese dienste in die Oos-Kaap het die verswakking van dienste duidelik aangedui. Daar was mense wat tot tien uur lank in toue gestaan het en steeds nie gehelp kon word nie en wat gevolglik die volgende dag moes terugkom.
Ook wat die salarisse van verpleegsters betref, is dit ‘n onmoontlike saak om te dink dat daar werklik goeie diens gelewer kan word en die beste mense vir die pos gelok kan word.
Die VF gaan teen hierdie begrotingspos stem. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, South Africa has been identified by the United Nations as the country where the HIV/Aids pandemic is beginning to assume serious proportions. There is still major confusion in South African Government circles about exactly how and where this matter should be tackled. Until that is clear, our problem will keep growing bigger.
Many promises were made in this House in respect of the improvement of health services and cheaper medicine. This is the test one applies on behalf of the voters, whether one can vote in favour of the proposal or not. Where we stand today it is clear that medicine is becoming steadily more expensive, and that medical services at many important hospitals are becoming worse and not better.
A recent television programme about medical services in the Eastern Cape clearly indicated the decline in services. There were people who stood in queues for up to 10 hours and still could not be helped and as a result had to return the following day.
Also as far as the salaries of nurses are concerned, it is impossible to think that a really good service could be rendered and that the best person could be attracted to a position.
The FF will vote against this Vote.]
Dr A S NKOMO: Madam Speaker, we as the ANC support this Vote today to commemorate all those people who met and decided that there shall be free medical services for all. [Interjections.] The long walk to freedom has translated into the short walk to health for those who now have a clinic on their doorstep and a health care centre, and who do not have to travel miles to get to a hospital or to a clinic. These are the people who now have a death certificate when they are buried, because they now have a community service doctor on their doorstep or a Cuban doctor placed with them.
These are the same people who join us to support this Health Vote. They are no longer the object of health scientists, as the national health guidelines of the Department of Health state, meaning that people will now be equal participants in health care research. They are partners and not just recipients. [Interjections.]
Children now live longer because when we came here in 1993, according to the Human Development Index of the United Nations, the infant mortality rate was 127 per 1 000. It is now 45 per 1 000. [Applause.] We are not yet there but step by step we want to get there, so that we may even save those people who used to die from fat that suffocated their hearts. They may now live like all of us.
Mr I O DAVIDSON: What is the Aids rate really?
Dr A S NKOMO: We support the Health Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 252: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabeta, M E; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G. NOES - 74: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Meshoe, K R J; Mogoba, M S; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pheko, S E M; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Vote No 15 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Housing - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr A SINGH: Madam Speaker, the DA supports the Vote but we would like the Minister to deliver better houses so that … [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Can we have some sound?
Mr A SINGH: I cannot speak any louder. [Interjections.] The DA supports the Housing Vote, but we would like the Minister to deliver better houses so that those houses that have been delivered are not going to fall down. She should empower the people so that they acquire their single most important asset, that is, a home.
The Minister in her speech claimed to have delivered sufficient homes as per the ANC’s election promises. The DA wants the Minister to now deliver quality homes not just mass-produced housing with cheap building materials and bad workmanship. The Minister should know that it is quality before quantity.
The home owners were poor without homes and now they are poorer with their homes, which need regular repairs and maintenance in order to make them livable homes. The poor have moved into these homes and now pray that it does not rain, as the walls are so badly cracked that water flows through the cracks and damages the belongings of the poor people.
The roofs, if heavy objects are not placed on them, fly off. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HOUSING: How many?
Mr A SINGH: It does not matter how many they are, even if it is one home. It is the poor that are suffering whenever it rains. [Interjections.] Whilst this Vote has been supported by the DA, I hope that the Minister will take cognisance of what I have said. Let us improve the houses that we are delivering.
Mnr J DURAND: Mev die Voorsitter, die Nuwe NP en die DA steun hierdie begrotingspos, maar ons kyk nie na die begroting met donkerbrille sodat ons nie die probleme raaksien nie. Ek besef maar al te goed dat dit ‘n moeilike besluit vir die agb Minister moet wees om te kies tussen kwantiteit en kwaliteit: naamlik tussen baie klein dakkies oor koppe vir so baie wat nog dakloos is, en dan nog miskien op verkeerde plekke; en goeie, sterk geboude, veilige huise op die regte plekke.
As ‘n mens in ag neem wat die agterstand in behuising tans is, en jy kyk na die agb Minister se begroting, kry jy haar jammer. ‘n Mens kan maar net hoop dat die inwerkingstelling van die Rental Housing Act in sy doel sal slaag om verhuurbare eiendomme daar te stel, en ook om toegang tot geskikte behuising te bevorder. Ons het van die direkteur-generaal verneem dat daar baie goeie vordering gemaak word, iets waarvoor ons dankbaar is.
‘n Ander faktor wat dalk ‘n deel van die oplossing mag wees, is die oprigting van woonstelstede in groot gebiede. Die aanvanklike oprigtingskoste mag dalk duur wees, maar baie werkgeleenthede kan geskep word, en sowat 90% van uitgawes kan bespaar word met die aanlê van dienste.
Die Nuwe NP en die DA steun hierdie pos. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr J DURAND: Madam Chairperson, the New NP and the DA support this Vote, but we are not looking at the appropriation through dark glasses so that we do not notice the problems. I realise all too well that it must be a difficult decision for the Minister to choose between quantity and quality, namely between many little roofs over the heads of so many who are still homeless, and then perhaps even in the wrong places, and sound, strongly built, safe houses in the right places.
When one takes into account the present housing backlog, and one looks at the hon the Minister’s budget, one feels sorry for her. One can only hope that the Rental Housing Act, once it comes into operation, will succeed in its objective to establish rentable properties, and to promote access to suitable housing. We heard from the director-general that very good progress is being made, something for which we are grateful.
Another factor that may be a part of the solution is building cities of flats in large areas. The initial building costs may be high, but many job opportunities can be created and about 90% of expenditure can be saved on the supply of services.
The New NP and the DA support this Vote.] Ms N E HANGANA: Madam Speaker, long live the Freedom Charter, long live. There shall be houses, security and comfort. The ANC Government is on course. Before 1994, the ANC committed itself to the people of South Africa, that it will bring about a better life for all. We are at work, rebuilding our communities. There is a sense of pride in our communities. Our people feel proud that they are now true citizens of South Africa, the country of their birth.
We have indeed reached our one million target and we are also speedily improving on the erection of houses. We are building this country and not breaking it down like the DA-led government in the Western Cape. Our President, in his state of the nation address, committed himself to a new urban renewal strategy and rural development.
About a month ago, the urban renewal strategy was duly launched in one of South Africa’s oldest townships, namely Alexandra. It will also soon be introduced in Khayelitsha and Mitchells Plain. We do not have time to play. We have work to do. The Government will build in Mitchells Plain, and the DA will follow after, and go in and break down, as is happening at this present moment. [Interjections.] The New NP is unable to defend the poor in their constituencies because they have been reduced to a mere butterfly in the stomach of Tony Leon. [Interjections.]
Mhlalingaphambili, siyi-ANC siyalwamkela olu hlahlo lwabiwo-mali sisithi:
Phambili'', kuMphathiswa uSankie Mthembi-Mahanyele ngelinge lakhe.
[Kwaqhwatywa.] [Madam Speaker, we as the ANC welcome and support this Vote
and say:Forward’’, to the hon the Minister Sankie Mthembi-Mahanyele in
her efforts. [Applause.]]
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I just want to ask the Minister whether, when she said ``long live the ANC’’, she was referring to the leave period that is starting tomorrow. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I do not know which Minister the hon member is referring to.
Mr A C NEL: Madam Speaker, during the hon Hangana’s input, there was a reference from that side of the House to her as ``a stupid woman’’. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Did hon members say that about another hon member? I now put Vote No 17 - Social Development. [Interjections.]
Mr A J BOTHA: Madam Speaker, I did not hear your ruling quite clearly. Some time ago in this House - I think you were in the Chair - the Minister of Finance called one of our members ``a stupid little boy’’, and you ruled that it was not unparliamentary.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I cannot recall the occasion the hon member is talking about. However, I did just now receive very positively the withdrawal by the hon member of his remark that he said ``a stupid woman’’. [Interjections.]
Vote 16 agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Social Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, hon members, an analysis of the security system reveals a glaring gap in social assistance to the poorest and most vulnerable sectors in South Africa. The present system provides only for poor families with children under the age of seven years, and for adults over the age of 60 or 65 years. While these forms of assistance are important targeted contributions to poverty alleviation, they are insufficient and do not reach all those living with no income.
Minister Manuel announced an increase in old age pensions from R540 to R570. Despite these assurances, that grant increases will be inflation- linked, the increase in old age pensions is only 5,5%, while the official inflation rate is well over 7% and it is rising. The child support grant increased by a mere R10, the first increase since … [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, can you please lower your voices?
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, it is the first increase since 1998. Taking inflation into account, the real value of the grant is R97, and in today’s terms, all it will buy is one extra loaf of bread per month.
The budget allocation for social services has fallen from 48,5% of the consolidated expenditure in 1997-1998 to 46,7% in 2001. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Camerer.
Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, the hon Xingwana has been making meowing noises throughout the hon Kalyan’s speech and I would ask you to rule her out of order. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Xingwana, are you making meowing noises? [Laughter.]
Ms L M T XINGWANA: No, Madam Speaker, I was yawning. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, may I please appeal to you to behave in a parliamentary way towards one another. Hon member, please proceed.
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, we would need R1,28 in 2001 to buy what we bought for R1 in 1997. Therefore, the social services budget should be R127 million in 2001-2002. Furthermore, social services are delivered to individuals. It is ridiculous to get the same social service allocation per person in 2001-02 as in 1997-98. So much for the calls for Batho Pele. We will not support this budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Andrew.
Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The behaviour of members of the ANC, as regards the a personally insulting and sexist bullying way in which they behaved throughout the speech of the hon Kalyan, was disgusting. I do not know which members were involved, because it is impossible or very difficult to ascertain and numerous members … [Interjections.] … and there is another one making … [Interjections.] I cannot take it. Let it be done to me but they do not have the guts, that is the problem … [Interjections.]
This happened repeatedly, to the extent that one could hardly hear the speaker at the podium. There were meowing noises being made on the other side of the House. There have been repeated rulings by the Chair and various presiding officers that sounds of that sort are totally unacceptable and … [Interjections.] I ask you to ask the members concerned to identify themselves, apologise and withdraw their disgusting behaviour. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, may I appeal to you please to conduct yourselves in a manner that allows us to proceed. We actually have a very long day, and if we make these kinds of noises which then get us into this whole process of trying to find out who did what, it really wastes our time unnecessarily. I appeal to all of us please to behave in a manner that assists us to proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, may I also appeal to the opposition benches to respond positively to your request, and this side will do its bit. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Indeed, I am actually requesting the hon members of the House. So I am actually appealing to everybody across the House please to behave in a manner that enables us to proceed.
Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I raised a point of order. Whether you consider that to be unparliamentary or not, that is a different matter. But, I asked you to ask members to identify themselves and ask them please to withdraw … [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Indeed I did hear your request. However, what I have chosen to do is just to appeal to members in the House not to behave in a manner that has led you to ask for what you are asking for. I would prefer that we just proceed and really leave it to hon members to assist us to do so.
Ms S C VOS: Madam Speaker, in restating our support for Vote 17, we also reiterate our serious concerns.
Poverty alleviation is not progressing as fast as South Africans in desperate need deserve and we note that, to some extent, bureaucracy hinders rather than helps. Social development programmes to support our HIV orphans, child-headed families and Aids sufferers requiring home-based care are still lacking capacity to implement humanitarian assistance and relief and we plead, once again, that this be prioritised. We look forward to the report of the Minister’s special committee and hope for solutions and some answers to these problems. The IFP supports all initiatives aimed at the alleviation of suffering in South Africa and we support the budget. [Applause.]
Mr E SALOOJEE: Madam Speaker, according to the report of the Auditor- General, there has been a considerable improvement in the Department of Social Development’s spending of the budget. Real advances are being made with the improvement of delivery in the area of social development.
On 22 June the department launched a R2,7 million community development project aimed at providing social services such as victim support and youth training to rural communities, thereby improving the quality of life of thousands of people in the Ngqeleni district in the Eastern Cape. This is but one part of our Government’s commitment to implementing the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme.
The department spends R18,8 billion annually on social security grants. The child support grant now reaches 1,2 million children and we must congratulate this department for its efforts to improve the coverage of this grant so significantly. We also support the department in all its efforts to consistently improve the conditions under which social security grants are paid so as to ensure that the dignity of the recipients is respected, and hon Kalyan should note that another great challenge is HIV/Aids.
We commend the Minister for the interventions already made to assist organisations in communities to take care of children affected and infected by HIV/Aids. These initiatives are crucial if we want to start coming to grips with the increasing number of children left to fend for themselves as the pandemic takes its toll on older members of families.
Madam Speaker, I rise in support of the Social Development Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 266: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P-J A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Madasa, Z L; Madlala- Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzimela, S E; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 60: Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Vote No 17 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr T D LEE: Madam Speaker, firstly, whilst not for a single moment doubting the hon the Minister of Sport’s commitment to matters such as transformation, serious reservations need to be expressed about his administration’s commitment to dealing with matters relating to corrupt administrators. Accusations were levelled at top ASA officials for allegedly misappropriating funds that were intended for development purposes. A request was put to the Minister to investigate these allegations in order to establish whether or not there is any truth in these claims. After promising to deal with the issue in a swift and just manner, the status of the investigation into these alleged irregularities is up to this moment unknown to all of us. Here the Minister was presented with a golden opportunity to showcase his administration’s commitment to clean governance and he failed to do so. Instead the hon the Minister chose to accuse the DA of trying to score cheap political points on the issue.
Serious reservations also need to be expressed about the department’s commitment to true development for all South Africans. In the Eastern Cape a multimillion rand state-of-the-art sports facility is gathering dust and grass is growing through the astroturf. A lack of proper consultation with local communities has led to the underutilisation of this facility which is also now operating at a huge financial loss.
The DA simply cannot support this budget which for all practical purposes is putting money into the pockets of administrators and not benefiting our athletes. If we are serious about the development of our athletes, then we need to invest in their talent. We need to address their concerns and we need to put their needs first.
Mr E T FERREIRA: Madam Speaker, the IFP will be supporting this Vote, although we do not believe the Government is investing enough in this national asset. The truth is that many cities in the world have bigger budgets for sport than what our national sport budget is. Many sports, especially our small and lesser known sports, are almost facing extinction because they cannot financially survive and they cannot attract sponsorship and TV coverage. In South Africa we have a tendency to look not much further than rugby, cricket and soccer. There are sports in South Africa where participation is diminishing and the Ministry and the Government will have to give seriously attention to assisting them.
On the positive side, we sincerely welcome the R40 million to be spent on new multipurpose sporting facilities and the upgrading of existing ones. This could be a small start towards addressing some of the above concerns. Medium-term expenditure on sport also looks encouraging and must be welcomed. Ms N R BHENGU: Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the ANC to support this Vote. We are doing so because we are convinced that this Vote signifies a giant leap towards achieving our fundamental objectives of transforming sport in our country. We support the Vote because it is another nail in the coffin of apartheid. We believe that this Vote is a blow for nonracialism and national unity.
The South African Boxing Bill and the South African Sports Commission Amendment Bill have gone through this House. Both Bills sought, amongst others, to bring sport in line with our Constitution and international trends. Firstly, the South African Boxing Bill lifts the ban on women participating in this sport; secondly, the composition of the envisaged South African Sports Commission points to a smaller and more manageable structure which would be better positioned to promote sport in our country.
Further, we believe that there is still a role for both the department and the Sports Commission. This situation will persist for as long as there is a need to pass laws that govern sport, and for their implementation to be monitored. We in the ANC will continue to drive processes that take us closer to our tranformational objectives for sport. Once more, the ANC supports the Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 268: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzimela, S E; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, N Z; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 60: Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Vote No 18 accordingly agreed to.
Vote 19 - Correctional Services - put. Declarations of vote:
Mev P W CUPIDO: Mev die Speaker, Korrektiewe Dienste word tans gekenmerk deur korrupsie, bedrog, algehele anargie, swak beplanning en swak bestuur. Die Diepkloof-gevangenis in Johannesburg is ‘n sprekende voorbeeld hiervan. Steeds vakante poste en die tekort aan personeel in feitlik al die sektore van hierdie departement is ‘n groot bron van kommer.
Die DA verwelkom die ondersoeke wat deur die Departement vir die Staatsdiens en Administrasie uitgevoer is. Alhoewel die uitslag van dié ondersoeke vernietigend was vir die Minister se geloofwaardigheid, het die DA besluit om die Minister ‘n geleentheid te gee om sy regstellende inisiatiewe uit te voer. Die DA steun dié begrotingspos voorwaardelik.
Algehele omvorming moet die wagwoord van dié departement word, ‘n behoorlike bestuurstelsel moet by die onderskeie tronke ingestel word, amptenare se opleiding en vergroting van hul vermoë moet bo-aan die Minister en sy departement se voorranglys wees.
Die Regering moet vorendag kom met ‘n aanvaarbare beleid om die dreigende gevaar van HIV/Vigs teen te werk. HIV/Vigs in tronke vereis dat regulasies in dié verband dringend hersien moet word. Die aanstelling van mediese personeel in tronke moet voldoen aan die behoeftes, die oorbevolking inaggenome.
Die DA sal omvorming in tronke en in dié departement in die komende boekjaar dophou en evalueer. Die DA ondersteun die begrotingspos. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mrs P W CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, Correctional Services is currently characterised by corruption, fraud, total anarchy, poor planning and poor management. Diepkloof Prison in Johannesburg is a striking example of this. Posts that remain vacant and a shortage of staff in practically all the sectors of this department are major sources of concern.
The DA welcomes the investigations that the Department of Public Service and Administration has undertaken. Even though the result of these investigations proved destructive to the credibility of the Minister, the DA decided to give the Minister an opportunity to implement his affirmative initiatives. The DA conditionally supports this Vote.
Total transformation must become the watchword of this department, a proper management system must be implemented in the various prisons, and the training of officials and the improvement of their competence must be at the top of the Minister’s and his department’s priority list.
The Government must come up with an acceptable policy to fight the threatening danger of HIV/Aids. HIV/Aids in prisons requires that regulations in this regard be urgently reviewed. The appointment of medical staff in prisons must meet the needs, taking overpopulation into account.
The DA will closely watch and evaluate transformation in prisons and in this department in the coming financial year. The DA supports this Vote.]
Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Speaker, the IFP supports the Correctional Services Vote and, in so doing, wishes to commend the Minister and his officials on the many positive developments that have taken place within this department over the past year.
We do, however, reiterate our appeals, firstly, to the Minister of Finance to allocate additional funds to the Department of Correctional Services. We need to ensure faster development and greater opportunities for rehabilitation for the incarcerated. To do this, we need to appoint more staff and bring the warder-prisoner ratio closer to the norm and international standards.
We need to extend productive industrial, agricultural and manufacturing facilities for this and for the urgent attention that is needed in further developing and upgrading facilities. More money is necessary and we call on the Minister to provide this. We also appeal to the Minister of Justice to ensure that his department really deals with the backlog in the system, because it is his department that is the cause of the major overcrowding in Correctional Services and hence the major problems.
We support the Vote.
Mr H A SMIT: Madam Speaker, we will vote for the adoption of the Vote and I will give a few reasons why we will vote for its adoption.
Although there are a number of problems, numerous problems, within this department, we believe that Correctional Services is only on the receiving end of the chain of what is being done by the SAPS and the other departments and also by the Department of Justice.
I want to point out that, of the total prison population at this point in time in South Africa, 36% are awaiting-trial prisoners. I believe the large number of juveniles in prison should actually be the responsibility of the Department of Health.
There were, and still are, numerous incidents of corruption during the past financial year. Personally, I am convinced that this hon Minister has plans in place to end these practices. I have seen his plans and I am very positive about them.
Yes, we can say that the appointment of the National Commissioner is long overdue. However, I do not believe that there are enough reasons to oppose the adoption of this Vote. If one agrees 51%, one does not oppose.
We support the adoption of this Vote.
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, the ACDP will support this Vote, but we appreciate that the department faces very serious challenges with the 67,75% overcrowding.
Only yesterday, together with other members of the portfolio committee, I visited Pollsmoor Prison as a result of urgent complaints from the medical staff of that prison. I was shocked to learn that for two months effective and immediate medical screening of prisoners on admission has not been taking place due to shortages of medical staff.
The inspecting judge, Judge Fagan, and the President of the Constitutional Court, Judge Chaskalson, recently expressed their deep sense of shock at the appalling conditions occasioned by prison overcrowding, particularly among awaiting-trial prisoners, many of whom could very well be acquitted. My concerns were also confirmed yesterday. During my visit to Pollsmoor Prison I learned that only 26 staff members attend to 7 316 prisoners, of whom 3 855 are awaiting trial. There should, in fact, be 46 staff members for this task.
Whilst I appreciate that prison overcrowding amongst the waiting-trial prisoners is directly attributable to criminal court backlogs, there can be no excuse for prisoners not to receive proper medical treatment. Already I was advised of the incidence of head scabies, chicken pox, impetigo and tuberculosis in Pollsmoor, which are clearly preventable diseases. I have no doubt that the state can be civilly held liable for not providing adequate medical health care to inmates.
I consequently call upon the Minister to urgently investigate the provision of medical services by his department, to prevent and address the outbreak of disease in our prisons, and be particularly mindful of the outbreak of cholera in certain prisons last year. Notwithstanding the above, the ACDP will support this Vote.
Mr N B FIHLA: Madam Speaker, the Department of Correctional Services presented its Budget Review to Parliament on 5 June 2001. The overall improvement in budgetary allocation to the department has meant that effective service delivery may be implemented, and greater departmental efficiency is envisaged. The R8,8 increase on the adjustment estimate for 2000-01 provides the amount of R500 million to be ascribed.
Firstly, to personal expenditure, which includes salary improvements, notch- and-leg promotions of personnel members and medical expenditure of personnel and revised personnel establishment. Secondly, other expenditure, which includes operation and operational costs of the two new prison facilities, purchase of departmental equipment and increased provision for capital projects and new prisons.
Overall, the department has targeted its key programmes in budgetary policy. These are mainly administration, incarceration, care of offenders, development of offenders, community corrections, reintegration into the community, asset procurement, maintenance, and operating partnerships. The Minister’s emphasis on expanding community corrections, more specifically the implementation of electronic monitoring, is welcomed, as is his emphasis on rooting out corruption and human resources malpractices within the Department of Correctional Services.
Of significant importance is the fact that the department itself estimates that it will receive income and miscellaneous receipts of about R72,4 million during 2001-02. Such departmental income is mostly generated by selling products from prison workshops, hiring out inmates’ labour and renting out official personnel accommodations. These positive accomplishments add to the coffers of the department’s budget, and serve to ensure progression in implementation. It is, thus, a positive budget that we accepted and supported. [Applause.]
Vote 19 agreed to.
Vote No 20 - Defence - put.
Declarations of vote:
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Speaker, failure to reduce a substantial number of personnel, to review the Defence Review, will result in too many troops who are nondeployable and lack combat readiness. Too many generals, and lack of oversight by the Joint Standing Committee on Defence are all reasons to oppose the Vote. However, it is the strategic arms deal that forms the basis of our position.
Following recent allegations, Gen Siphiwe Nyanda, Chief of the National Defence Force, should resign with immediate effect. His beneficial procurement of two luxury Mercedes-Benz’s, worth almost R1 million, brings disgrace upon the National Defence Force. He has displayed very little common sense. A formal inquiry should be launched to establish Gen Nyanda’s involvement in the deal. In fact, all beneficiaries of motor vehicle deals with EADS or other companies who benefited from the arms deal should voluntarily declare these dealings.
In weighing up the arms deal, and all of the possible contractors, surely it must have crossed his mind that he would be implicated. People occupying senior positions need to put the interests of the public well before their own. Getting a discount on his car from EADS would, certainly, lead to suspicion that he might be improperly advantaged, because he owes them favours.
Gen Nyanda’s decision to step down should be voluntary; should he not do so, the Minister of Defence should fire him. [Interjections.] His poor judgment might lead to more disastrous consequences for the SANDF. The DA cannot support the budget when the credibility of the arms deal, which accounts for almost 40% thereof, is blowing up in the Cabinet’s face. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker and the honourable House, racism within the Defence Force should be curtailed. We should work on that, and we must make sure that we try to take it out of their minds, out of their action and out of their thinking. Demobilisation, together with the Employment Retrenchment Initiative, should be looked at, to ensure that people who are demobilised are sent straight to the Service Corps, so that they may be trained on how to use their minds and their hands in order to survive. These are well-trained soldiers and if they are not employed elsewhere they will shoot us and take our bags.
The youth recruitment to take place over the next two years must be explained properly. It must not be introduced as if we are bringing back the conscription campaign. We must make sure that those people who want to be involved in defence matters are recruited and trained for two years, and those who do not want to participate in these matters must be left alone, so that they will not say we are conscripting them, when they are not supposed to be conscripted.
The last issue that I want to talk about is the deployment of service members to areas where they cannot communicate in the mother tongue languages of the residents. This causes a lot of problems and mistrust between service members and the community, and should be looked at. I am not advocating that we must send people who are English to English speakers, but I am saying that defence members who are deployed to areas where they are supposed to work must be able to communicate with those people. Otherwise they will find themselves not accepted in those areas. We support the budget.
Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, initially the ACDP was going along with this budget. But every day one gets these reports, and the matter is becoming difficult. I want to say to the people who are involved directly or indirectly in this scandal of the arms deal that … [Interjections.]
Ilungu malingandiphazamisi. [Uwele-wele.] Bubudlwembe ukuzibandakanya kurhwaphilizo. [The hon member must stop interrupting me. [Interjections.] It is evil to involve oneself in corruption.]
We need to make that statement clear to people who may be involved. It is evil to involve oneself in corruption, because it is a betrayal of the struggle.
Bubudlwembe. [It is evil.]
That must be clear. If the allegations concerning the Chief of the National Defence Force are true, I appeal to the Minister to conduct an internal disciplinary inquiry in the Defence Force.
Yesterday I went to N1 City and there were two officials in the gym, talking.
Kuyabonakala ukuba bebengandiboni okanye bebecinga ukuba ndingumntu weBala,
ngoko bahleba bethetha ngesiXhosa. Omnye ubuzile komnye: Uyivile into
yokuba uGab uyabandakanyeka kule nto yezixhobo?'' Omnye wathi:Heyi,
Qabane, kunzima nokubakhusela aba bantu, uyazi. Mabaveze inyani ngale
nto.’’ (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[It is clear that they did not see me or they thought that I was a coloured
person, because they spoke Xhosa. One asked the other: Did you hear that
Gab is involved in the arms scandal?'' The other one said:Comrades, it
is difficult to protect these people, you know. They must just come out
with the truth.’’]
So what I am trying to say is that that is what is happening on the ground. [Interjections.] So we need to be aware of these issues.
Ayincedi into yokuba sibe sixwaxwana apha eNdlwini. [It does not help that we argue in the House.]
Let the truth be known. I appeal to the people who are involved to volunteer, because this thing is embarrassing. That is what the people are saying on the ground …
… ukuba mabavele aba bantu kuba kunzima ukuba bakhuselwe. [… that these people should come out because it is difficult to protect them.]
We shall abstain from voting.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev die Speaker, ek het in die debat oor die Verdedigingsbegrotingspos spesifiek vir die agb Minister gevra of hy ‘n Mercedes gekry het. Ek wou hom vra of die Hoof van die SA Nasionale Weermag ‘n Mercedes gekry het. Het die Hoof van die Leër ‘n Mercedes gekry? [Tussenwerpsels.] Het die Hoof van die Lugmag ‘n Mercedes gekry? [Tussenwerpsels.] Het die Hoof van die Vloot ‘n Mercedes gekry? [Tussenwerpsels.] Het die agb lid wat die voorsitter van die Portefeuljekomitee oor Verdediging is ‘n Mercedes gekry? [Tussenwerpsels.]
Ek het pertinent die agb Minister gevra om die name bekend te maak van die mense wat Mercedesse gekry het sodat Suid-Afrika kan weet wie die mense is. Dit is nou egter soos ‘n druppende kraan terwyl ons elke tweede week moet hoor wie Mercedesse gekry het en wie nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] In belang van die SA Nasionale Weermag versoek ek weer ‘n keer die agb Minister om die name bekend te maak sodat almal, die media en die hele Suid-Afrika, kan weet wie dit is.
Die VF verskil egter wat die wapentransaksie betref. Daar is positiewe aspekte aan die wapentransaksie verbonde. Die belangrikste is dat tegnologie vir Suid-Afrika in ‘n sekere mate behoue is. As ons gaan kyk na die vervaardigingsbedryf ten opsigte van byvoorbeeld swaarkaliber- ammunisie, die vervaardiging van vliegtuie, optiese instrumente ensovoorts, is daar ‘n voordeel wat die wapennywerheid vir Suid-Afrika inhou.
Daarom sal die VF hierdie begrotingspos steun, want ons glo die wapentransaksie kan bydra tot groter werkskepping, maar dan moet die agb Minister dit sê. Dan moet ons weet watter werk daar geskep word. Ons moet weet watter teenhandel uit hierdie wapentransaksie voortvloei. Dit is nie billik om die Weermag te penaliseer net as gevolg van verdere korrupsie in die wapentransaksie nie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, in the debate on the Defence Vote I specifically asked the hon the Minister whether he received a Mercedes. I wanted to ask him whether the Chief of the SA National Defence Force received a Mercedes. Did the Chief of the Army receive a Mercedes? [Interjections.] Did the Chief of the Air Force receive a Mercedes? [Interjections.] Did the Chief of the Navy receive a Mercedes? [Interjections.] Did the hon member who is chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Defence receive a Mercedes? [Interjections.] I specifically asked the hon the Minister to release the names of the people who received a Mercedes so that South Africa could know who the people are. However, this is now like a dripping tap while every second week we must hear who received a Mercedes and who did not. [Interjections.] In the interests of the SA National Defence Force I once again request the hon the Minister to release the names so that everyone, the media and the entire South Africa, can know who they are.
However, the FF differs regarding the arms deal. There are positive aspects to the arms deal. The most important of these is that technology is retained for South Africa to a certain extent. If we look at the manufacturing industry, for example with regard to heavy-calibre ammunition, the manufacturing of aircraft, optical instruments, etc, the weapons industry does offer a benefit to South Africa.
For that reason the FF will support this Vote, because we believe the arms deal can contribute to increased job creation, but then the hon the Minister must say so. We must then know what jobs are going to be created in that regard. We must know what countertrade will arise from this arms deal. It is not fair to penalise the Defence Force merely as a result of further corruption in the arms deal. [Time expired.]]
Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Chairperson, the defence of our territorial integrity and the responsibility for our sovereignty is that of the South African National Defence Force as mandated by ourselves. But, it is also the responsibility of every political party represented in this House.
This budget enables us to sustain a South African National Defence Force, capable of defending the country in the eventuality of a threat. This budget provides the SANDF with such capabilities that allow for the necessary support for social delivery programmes to our communities and it also reinforces our national capacity to support the UN and SADC peace operations on the continent and beyond.
The high morale and good welfare of the armed forces are our collective responsibility. For any political party to object to this Vote would be a dereliction of duty in the superlative degree of comparison. [Interjections.] We as the ANC call on all true patriots to support this Vote. [Applause.] Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 256: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J M; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzimela, S E; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B J; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 71: Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mogoba, M S; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Opperman, S E; Pheko, S E M; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
ABSTENTION - 1: Govender, P.
Vote No 20 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put and agreed to (Democratic Party, New National Party and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 22 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
Dr J T DELPORT: Chairperson, amongst the many responsibilities of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is the functioning of the courts and, more specifically, that of the criminal courts, which constitute one of its core functions. This is where we find the biggest blot on the record of the department. This contributes to our inability to stem the tide of crime.
We are encouraged by the initiatives taken to improve the situation. We are also encouraged by the reaction of the Minister to the other issues we raised in the budget debate. However, seeing is believing. The track record of the department is not good. In fact, it is bad.
Die DA sal korrektiewe maatreëls steun en sal inisiatiewe toejuig. Ons sal die Minister krediet gee waar hy krediet verdien, maar te veel sake het té lank onaangeraak gelê. Ons stem teen hierdie begrotingspos en ons sê vir die Minister: ``Ons wil u steun. Gee ons rede om dit te doen. Doen die dinge wat gedoen moet word. Asseblief!’’ (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The DA will support rectifying measures and will applaud initiatives. We will give the Minister credit where he deserves credit, but too many matters have been left in abeyance for too long. We are voting against this Vote and we say to the Minister: ``We would like to support you. Give us a reason to do so. Do the things that have to be done. Please!’’]
Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, the IFP did support this Vote during its debate and we will continue to do so. But the IFP will continue, also, to raise the flag on some of the things that we feel have not been adequately attended to.
The Justice and Constitutional Development budget clearly indicates the amount that will be spent on the salaries and allowances of judges in the current financial year. But we are concerned about the fact that the budget lacks detailed information about the salaries of magistrates, prosecutors, interpreters and other justice officials. We believe it is essential that this House be informed of the exact remuneration of the above justice officials, particularly that of magistrates - what increase they were given and what specific amount has been budgeted for their remuneration.
Angibeke nje kancane lapha ukuthi kuyazeka ukuthi ngesikhathi sisaphumule ngomhlaka 22-26 April, umfoka Langa waphuma umkhankaso nathi. Abangamazi uLanga ukuthi ubani; u-De Lange. Sazibonela thina mathupha okwenzekayo ezinkantolo. Izintombi nezinsizwa zizinikele ukwenza umsebenzi. Zisebenza kuze kube nguMgqibelo zingakhokhelwa. Kokunye zikhokha izimali emaphaketheni azo, zithenge izinto okufuneka engabe zithengwa uMnyango, zelekelele ukuthi umsebenzi uqhubeke. Ngakho-ke besicela kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi udaba lomantshi lubhekwe ngeso lokhozi ngoba i-IFP ikubuka ngeso lokhozi lokhu. U-Comrade u-Manuel akake akhwathaze imali ukuze phela omantshi nabo bahlumule. Anganikini ikhanda nje kube sengathi akukho akubonayo, bathwele nzima. Siyaseseka-ke isabelo mali. [Ihlombe]. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[Let me say that it is known that when we were in recess from April 22 to 26, the son of Langa joined us in the campaign. For those who do not know Langa, his real name is De Lange. We ourselves saw what was taking place in our courts. Ladies and gentlemen are committed to their work. They work until Saturday without being paid. Sometimes they use their own money to buy things that should have been bought by the department. They did this to assist in keeping the process going. Therefore, we would like to ask the Minister to consider the issue of magistrates very carefully because the IFP is serious about this. Comrade Manuel should provide some money so that magistrates will gain. He must not shake his head in refusal as if he can see anything. People are faced with difficulties. We support this Vote. [Applause.]]
Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, the DA and the New NP cannot support the Justice Vote for the following reasons.
Firstly, justice sits at the centre of any society and, unfortunately, the Justice department is a very obvious example of the bad governance we are subjected to. The high and rising crime rate, the very low conviction rate, the limping operation of our courts with huge backlogs and the snail’s pace of cases through the court bear witness to this fact.
The financial management of justice in the past six years has been a disaster as the Auditor-General has been saying annually during that period. The fact that at last mechanisms have been put in place to do proper budgeting and financial control, is to be welcomed, and we welcome the Minister’s initiative in this regard. But, this has only just happened and it is too early to say whether it will bear fruit.
Thirdly, since 1994, the Justice department has been notoriously underfunded and the new budgeting processes have now brought to light the full extent of this and show a total of unfunded current priority needs in excess of R700 million. This includes the 1 800 new posts which the Minister, yesterday, apparently, promised the magistrates would be filled in order to persuade them to stop their go-slow. Now, the need for these posts was identified four years ago and does include a shortage of 189 magistrates posts. The cost of this will amount to R220 million. But, these promises of the Minister are empty because no funds have been allocated in this budget to fill these posts. Shamefully, also included in the R700 million shortfall, is R150 million relating to last year’s bonuses, salary and merit increases. In his budget speech the Minister did not tell us how these funds are going to be found. So, we cannot support the Vote.
Mr T ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, the budget before us is central to the fight against crime, which remains one of the primary concerns of all South Africans.
To this end, the increase in the budget for the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, especially the creation of an electronic data system to co-ordinate the administration of justice, is a welcomed step into the 21st century and recognises the benefits that technology holds for service delivery. Having said that, we need to recognise that technology is worthless if we do not give adequate attention to the needs and requirements of the most valuable assets in any Government development, its human resources.
The plight of personnel within the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development remains a controversial and complex issue. We note that the Minister has succeeded in reaching a settlement with magistrates regarding their work-to-rule action. It is vital that the Minister and the department give working conditions within their administration serious and immediate attention.
Finally, the UDM feels that this budget does not adequately provide for the need to make justice accessible to all South Africans. We would like to see more being done for ordinary citizens to gain timely and proper access to courts and to reduce the queues and shorten the turnover of cases.
The UDM supports the budget.
Mr S N SWART: Mr Chairperson, at the beginning of the budget brief I was shocked to hear that the director-general admitted that, at a certain stage towards the end of last year, he was advised that the department would overspend by some R173 million. He admitted to stopping expenditures as far as possible until it was then ascertained that there would be an underspending of some R178 million. This serves to illustrate the then chaotic condition of the budgeting of the Department of Finance, which elicited scathing reports from both the Auditor-General as well as the Joint Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
However, the appointment of Mr McKenzie from Business Against Crime, with his business management approach, appears to be producing dividends. For the first time costing units will be employed to ascertain whether the department is receiving value for money, and is in turn providing value for money to the public. Monthly accounts will be kept, which will enable the CEO continuously to determine the department’s expenditure. We trust that Mr McKenzie’s budget for success, costing and business units and business managers will result in a financial turnaround.
Whilst we applaud the attempts by the department … [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!
Mr S N SWART: Whilst we applaud the attempts by the department to dispense prosecutors to address court backlogs, particularly the Saturday court initiative, we note with alarm that the backlog in district and regional courts has increased. It is in these courts where people seek justice, whether the person is the widow or child of a father who has been callously murdered, the victim of armed robbery, assault or rape, or a struggling mother who is seeking maintenance to feed her family or a protection order against domestic violence. These are the people we need to ensure that we are providing justice for. Unfortunately, it is in these areas that, notwithstanding its best endeavours, the department is really struggling to deliver.
In conclusion, let us be reminded of the Scriptures. Micah 6:8 states, and I quote:
What does God require of us? To do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with our God.
The ACDP will unfortunately not support this Vote.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members to my immediate left and immediate right, will you kindly lower your voices.
Dr C P MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, misdaad is een van die hoofoorsake van Suid-Afrika se slegte beeld sowel in die binneland as in die buiteland. Misdaad het ‘n negatiewe effek op alle ander terreine van die samelewing, maar word hoofsaaklik beveg deur drie departemente, naamlik Veiligheid en Sekuriteit, Justisie en Korrektiewe Dienste.
Die Departement van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit se taak is om misdadigers te vang en die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste se taak is om hulle agter tralies te hou, waar hulle hoort. Maar dit is die Departement van Justisie wat moet toesien dat misdadigers regverdig en billik vervolg word, en indien beskuldig is, dan ook gevonnis word. Indien egter in ag geneem word dat meer as een derde van alle persone in gevangenisse tans verhoorafwagtendes is, dan is dit duidelik dat daar tans ‘n baie groot probleem in die strafregstelsel in Suid-Afrika bestaan.
Verder, die dreigende en pasafgeweerde staking van landdroste as gevolg van salarisse en werksomstandighede, is ook vir ons ‘n aanduiding dat daar ernstige probleme in die departement is. Die Minister het wel daarin geslaag om die dreigende staking af te weer, maar onderliggend is daar nog steeds probleme wat nie opgelos is nie. Waar Justisie reeds ‘n probleem is
- en daar is verskeie probleme met agterstande - is die VF van mening dat dit opportunisties sal wees om te poog om hierdie pos afgestem te kry en daardeur die situasie net nog verder te vererger.
Die VF doen ‘n beroep op die Minister om alles in sy vermoë te doen om die agterstande uit te wis sodat die departement sy volle rol kan speel in die hantering van misdaad, saam met Veiligheid en Sekuriteit, en Korrektiewe Dienste.
Die VF sal die pos steun. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairman, crime is one of the main causes of South Africa’s poor image, locally as well as abroad. Crime has a negative effect on all spheres of society, but it is in the main combated by three departments, namely Safety and Security, Justice, and Correctional Services.
The task of the Department of Safety and Security is to catch criminals and the task of the Department of Correctional Services is to keep them behind bars, where they belong. But it is the Department of Justice that must ensure that criminals are prosecuted justly and fairly, and if they have been accused, that they are sentenced. However, if one takes into consideration that over one third of all persons in prisons at present are awaiting trial, then it is clear that there is a very big problem in South Africa’s judicial system.
Furthermore, the threatening and recently averted strike by magistrates because of salaries and working conditions is also an indication to us that there are serious problems in the department. The Minister in fact succeeded in averting the threatened strike, but under the surface there are still problems that have not been resolved. Where Justice is still a problem - and there are various problems in respect of backlogs - the FF is of the view that it would be opportunistic to try to reject this Vote, and in so doing to exacerbate the situation further.
The FF appeals to the Minister to do everything in his power to eliminate the backlogs so that the department could play its full-fledged role in dealing with crime, together with Safety and Security, and Correctional Services. The FF will support the Vote.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, as meer as ‘n derde van alle gevangenes verhoorafwagtendes is, beteken dit net een van twee dinge: Of die polisie vang te veel mense of Justisie vervolg te min, vang te vinnig of vervolg te stadig. Ons weet die eerste is nie die geval nie. Daar is ‘n groot blokkasie by die Departement van Justisie; daar is oorvol hofrolle wat lank wag en mense is vir lang tye op borgtog uit of is verhoorafwagtend. Daarom het die AEB gevra vir ‘n verhoogde Justisiebegroting met beter geriewe en salarisse vir aanklaers en ander personeel. Hierdie fondse sal dubbel en dwars teruggewen word deur kleiner hofrolle, minder verhoorafwagtendes in die tronke en die inperking van misdaad wat daaruit sal volg.
Wat betref die WVK-proses wil ons weer eens die aandag daarop vestig dat daar ‘n oplossing moet kom. Dit is egter nie ‘n oplossing wat slegs deur die Departement van Justisie uitgedink moet word nie, maar dit is ‘n politieke aangeleentheid wat deur alle rolspelers aangespreek moet word.
Ons verwelkom weer eens die uitspraak van regter Selwood dat die onafhanklikheid van die howe gehandhaaf moet word, veral teen inmenging vanuit die uitvoerende gesag. Ons wil weer eens ons vrese uitspreek oor die ooreenkoms met Amerika dat halsmisdadigers nie uitgelewer sal word nie, indien ons nie weet dat hulle nie die doodstraf kry nie. Ons is bang dat Suid-Afrika ‘n rowerspelonk word. Indien die Departement van Justisie sy huis in orde kry, die infrastruktuur daarstel en sodanig funksioneer dat hierdie agterstand ingehaal kan word, sal ons graag vir hierdie begrotingspos stem. Op die oomblik is prestasie egter onvoldoende en sal ons dit nie kan doen nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, when more than one third of all prisoners are awaiting trial, this means only one of two things: Either the police are catching too many people or the Department of Justice is prosecuting too few; catching too quickly or prosecuting too slowly. We know that the former is not the case. There is a major blockage in the Department of Justice; there are court rolls that are too full and that take too long to be dealt with, and people are out on bail or are awaiting trial for long periods of time. Therefore, the AEB has asked for an increased Justice budget with better facilities and salaries for prosecutors and other personnel. These funds will be recovered over and over again by way of shorter court rolls, fewer people awaiting trial in prisons and consequently less crime.
With regard to the TRC process, we would once again like to focus attention on the fact that we must find a solution. However, this is not a solution that must be devised by the Department of Justice alone, but this is a political matter that must be addressed by all stakeholders.
Once again, we welcome the judgment by Judge Selwood that the independence of the courts must be maintained, especially in the face of interference from the executive. We would like once again to express our fears about the agreement with America that capital criminals will not be extradited, if we do not know that they will not receive the death penalty. We are afraid that South Africa will become a robbers’ den. If the Department of Justice gets its house in order, establishes the infrastructure and functions in such a way that this backlog can be eradicated, we will gladly vote in favour of this Vote. At the moment, however, its performance is inadequate and we cannot do this.]
Adv J H DE LANGE: Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the ANC in unconditional support of this budget. I also thank those opposition parties that supported the budget. I am deeply saddened and worried about the approach of other opposition parties to this matter. It is clear to me that their vote against this budget is not based on principle, is not based on what is going on in the department, but is based on political opportunism. Unfortunately it is so that some parties have decided to make a political football out of the justice system.
In fact, if one analyses the votes of some of these parties, one will notice that they automatically vote against anything that has to do with the criminal justice system. Instead of building on the positive aspects in these departments, they play on the most basic fears that exist in our society around crime.
This is particularly obvious if one weighs this approach against the thorough investigation we have done on this budget. No person that has sat for weeks and weeks, visiting courts, going through this budget, could honestly come to the conclusion that they have around these matters. My abiding memory of all these hearings is of many thousands of judges, magistrates, prosecutors, every day of the week, five days a week, against great odds, trying to make sure that justice works in this country.
That is not to say that there is perfect justice in the country. Nowhere in the world is there perfect justice. In a transition, it creates special conditions for imperfect justice. We have to remember this. A total of 95% and more of our courts function every day of the week to dispense justice. Of course, this does not mean that there are not any problems. There are many problems, particularly in the financial area. All these matters have to be addressed. More money will indeed help.
Finally, I want to say this: A vote against the justice budget is not a vote against the ANC. It is not a vote against Penuell Maduna. It is not even a vote against Johnny de Lange or the justice committee. It is a vote of no confidence in the thousands of officials, judges, prosecutors and magistrates in this country who try to make the system work. [Applause.] It is a vote of no confidence in all the efforts and sacrifices of those people who are trying to work under tremendously difficult conditions. I will remind them about that constantly for a year. [Time expired.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 259: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki; C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzimela, S E; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 69: Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Meshoe, K R J; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Vote No 22 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Safety and Security - put. Declarations of vote:
Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, the ultimate duty of a democratic government is to ensure the safety of that country, its borders and its sovereignty. This Government of ours deals with the ill-fated $50 billion plus arms deal and the R15,8 billion Defence budget for 2001, but right next to that is another principal duty, and that is to ensure the internal safety of our people.
Safety is the most important investment any taxpayer makes. It is more than a duty to the Government, it is a constitutional obligation. It must be heeded long before money is spent on anything else.
Then came the 2001 budget on Safety and Security, followed by the latest crime statistics, the yardstick for this department’s successes or failures. What does it say? Crime is at an all-time new high - there is a 5% escalation per year, the dismal result of an 8% budget increase from 1999 to 2000, while Defence secures another 14,5% increase. We have no threats to our country.
Our crime-beleaguered people only get a 9% return, before inflation, on their tax investment - the only real return - to feel at least as unsafe as a year ago. It is a shame. The Minister is sadly mistaken if he regards the budget as sufficient. He should listen to every station commander. Even the Minister of Defence admits that and cries about manpower and resources.
While the programmes in the budget make for reasonable reading and even sound thinking, in total the budget is just wholly underfunded. The DP cannot be part of Government’s message to our people, which is that they do not care enough to sufficiently provide for their safety. We cannot in this way be a silent partner to their being killed, raped and robbed. We not only do not support the budget, but we vehemently oppose its inadequacy. If Government keeps on failing in its primary obligations to our people, the fruits of this country will keep on rotting on poisonous and dying trees. [Time expired.]
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, when the police are being killed because their dogs are making a lot of noise, that is racism. When the people do not want to listen to the order of a commander, no matter what colour they are, just because they are a different colour, that is racism. We do not support that. The department must work very hard to remove that and root it out. Those people who are still clinging to racism must be fired.
The department must try by all means to eliminate corruption. These police personnel who are involved in corruption, when they are found guilty by a court of law, must have their benefits taken away from them, because they have been found guilty of corruption. Therefore, a person who is already found to be corrupt must not take the benefit and run away with it. With regard to combating crime, we must all be involved, including members of this House.
It is a shame to see members of this House being arrested by the police. They are not supposed to, because they are hon members of the House. Therefore, if there are members who are involved in crime, they must stop it, because they are really diminishing their position as hon members of this House. They must help the police to combat crime instead of themselves being involved in crime.
The involvement of the police in politics should be revisited through the Police Act, so that we remove the doubts of the police when they are in police stations, because we do not want to see them involved in politics. We support the budget.
Adv A H GAUM: Madam Speaker, on Sunday, Deputy President Zuma called South Africans who are critical of the Government’s failure to tackle crime effectively unpatriotic. He is wrong. Patriotism is not about blind support for the Government’s actions. We oppose this budget because we patriotically believe that it is inadequate for addressing Government’s paramount duty, the safety of its citizens.
We cannot support a budget that will only provide 1 000 more police officers when almost 10 000 have left in the past two years. We will be outspoken when the police budget, desperately needed to fight crime, is being used to investigate ANC plots or to provide private security to the film crew of Indian company Dreamz Associates Mauritius.
We are duty-bound to keep guard over the taxpayers’ money when the ANC has no such regard. It is not those who are critical of Government’s failures who are sabotaging the progress of the country, as our Deputy President has suggested; it is the criminal element that hinders our progress and that undermines our potential. The Government should turn its energies against those criminals, not against those who seek its support.
We will be critical when the Government is not doing enough to address this outcry from the people. We are critical of a Minister who alleges that South Africa is not a dangerous place, when more than 20 000 murders and more than 50 000 sexual attacks have taken place in the last year. It is those who distance themselves from our country’s problems who are the unpatriotic ones, the ones who would rather be blind to the plight of ordinary people and prefer to pretend all is well in South Africa.
The people place their trust in Minister Tshwete, and the hopes of the nation regarding the fight against crime rest with him. Patriots believe in him and even nonpatriots have to rely on him. He himself must shoulder the responsibility for their criticism.
The DA, as a loyal and honest opposition, will be the first to applaud on the day of his success. Unfortunately that day is not today, and when examining this budget, it does not appear that it will be any time soon. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms A VAN WYK: Mr Chairperson, the UDM will support the Vote before the House. We believe that the budget, within the financial constraints of South Africa, represents a good increase and can go a long way in addressing the crime situation. Crime in South Africa is unacceptably high. This we all know, and on this we all agree.
Simply throwing more money at the problem will not improve the situation. The approach and commitment of the Minister, the Commissioner, the top management of the SAPS and every single member will make the required difference. The time has also arrived for every law-abiding citizen of South Africa to play their part in the fight against crime. Criminals are within our communities. They have families and friends and live in neighbourhoods amongst law-abiding citizens. They breath the same air we do, and walk the same streets. They are somebody’s brother, sister, son or daughter, father or mother. They are harboured amongst us. It is the citizens who provide a market for stolen goods, and drugs which are also the lifeline of criminals. The next time members buys a watch, sunglasses or a cheap car radio from anybody other than a dealer, they have to ask themselves whether somebody was raped or killed in the process.
We can strengthen the hands of the SAPS, contribute positively to the fight against crime, and increase the number of the SAPS, not by a mere 10 000 or 20 000, but by millions, by each of us playing our small part, by being responsible citizens. The SAPS has a responsibility to empower South Africans to contribute to this fight. This can only be done by demonstrating their own commitment, developing trust and leading the fight against crime by example.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, in spite of efforts by Government to convince the public that crime is under control, our people on the ground are still living in fear and are very insecure. It is both regrettable and insensitive for anyone to condemn South Africans who voice their fears and accuse them of being chronic pessimists, as the Deputy President is reported to have said. Any insinuation that those who speak about their fears and frustrations are unpatriotic should be rejected by all those who are in touch with what is happening on the ground. Our people are subjected to continual imprisonment in their homes as Government fails to protect them from criminals.
The ACDP cannot support Vote 23 because Government has failed to eradicate crime from our communities. We reject their diplomatic approach to criminality. The Government must consider the human rights of law-abiding citizens and victims of crime, before they consider the rights of criminals. Until our children are safe on the streets, commuters are safe on the trains, and our people are safe in their homes, the ACDP will not support the Safety and Security Vote.
The experiences of citizens on the ground are more convincing than the Government’s statistics. Crime must be eradicated instead of expecting people to get used to living with crime. People have a right to live in a safe environment.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the noise level is much too high.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, die VF sal nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie, om die eenvoudige rede dat die agb Minister ‘n onbevoegde Minister is.
Die agb Minister reageer op ongetoetste inligting, en dit is uiters onverantwoordelik. Ek sien die agb Minister skud op en af soos hy lag daaroor. Die werklikheid is, dit is nog steeds ongetoets. Die hoof van die Nasionale Intelligensie-agentskap het die agb Minister gewaarsku en gesê dit is ongetoetste inligting.
Misdaadstatistiek is weerhou, nie net van hierdie Huis nie, maar van Suid- Afrika, en toe die nuwe statistiek bekendgemaak is, het dit eintlik niks nuuts opgelewer nie. Ons sê, wat dit betref, is Suid-Afrika mislei deur die misdaadstatistiek te weerhou.
Die agb Minister beskik nie oor die vermoë om misdaad te bestry nie, en die gevolg daarvan is dat ons in ‘n onveilige samelewing leef. Die agb Minister weet egter nie wat ‘n onveilige samelewing is nie, want hy is omring deur veiligheidspersoneel en lyfwagte wat hom moet oppas. Dit is miskien hoog tyd dat die agb Minister ‘n maand lank ‘n bietjie sonder lyfwagte rondbeweeg sodat hy kan agterkom of dit veilig of onveilig is.
Die standpunt van die VF is ook verder dat die agb Minister resultaatgedrewe bevorderings in die SAPD moet terugbring. ‘n Persoon behoort te bewys dat hy of sy misdaad in sy of haar gebied kan bestry alvorens sodanige persoon bevorder kan word, sodat daar nie net ter wille van regstellende optrede bevorderings deurgevoer word nie. Dan sal misdaad bestry word in Suid-Afrika. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, the FF will not support this Vote for the simple reason that the hon the Minister is an incompetent Minister.
The hon the Minister reacts to untested information, and this is extremely irresponsible. I see the hon the Minister is shaking with laughter about this. The reality is that it is still untested. The chief of the National Intelligence Agency warned the hon the Minister and said that this was untested information. Crime statistics were withheld, not only from this House, but from South Africa, and when the new statistics were announced, they actually revealed nothing new. We say, in this regard, that South Africa was misled by the withholding of crime statistics.
The hon the Minister does not have the ability to fight crime, and the consequence of this is that we are living in an unsafe society. The hon the Minister, however, does not know what an unsafe society is, because he is surrounded by security staff and bodyguards who must protect him. It is possibly high time the hon the Minister went without bodyguards for a month in order for him to discover whether it is safe or unsafe.
The standpoint of the FF is furthermore that the hon the Minister should reinstate result-driven promotions in the SAPS. A person should prove that he or she can fight crime in his or her area before such a person can be promoted, so that promotions are not merely made for purposes of affirmative action. Then crime will be combated in South Africa.]
Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Mnr die Voorsitter, daar is feitlik elke dag berigte in die pers van aanvalle op plase; op werkers en op boere. Vandag is weer eens nie ‘n uitsondering nie. In die Cape Times van vanoggend verskyn die volgende berig onder die opskrif: ``Workers killed on a farm’’:
A couple looking after their employer’s farm near Stutterheim in the Eastern Cape were brutally hacked to death with an axe while their one- year-old baby was crying just metres away. The bodies of Lwayithi Monise and his wife Nokwayiyo Killton, aged 35, were found with multiple stab wounds by a person who went to deliver milk to Swallows Farm between Stutterheim and Keiskammahoek.
Feitlik elke dag gebeur daar so iets. Die woordeoorlog wat gevoer word teen misdaad in die land is nie suksesvol in dade omskep nie, en die moorde in landelike gebiede duur voort. Dit help nie om daaroor te praat nie, want dit bied bitter min beskerming vir die duisende mense wat daagliks vermoor, verkrag en beroof word.
Iewers moet daar ‘n end aan kom. Die planne wat gemaak word om plaasmoorde te keer, werk nie. Op die oomblik gaan dit voort. Iewers moet die Minister verantwoordelikheid neem sodat ons sinvolle planne op die grond kry. Daarom, wanneer die FA hierdie begrotingspos oorweeg, stem dit teen die Minister omdat daar nog nie sinvolle planne op die grond is wat hierdie absolute miskenning van die reg van wetsgehoorsame burgers kan teenwerk nie.
Ons sal dit nie steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, virtually every day there are reports in the press about attacks on farms; on workers and on farmers. Today is, once again, no exception. The following report appeared in this morning’s Cape Times under the heading: ``Workers killed on a farm’’:
A couple looking after their employer’s farm near Stutterheim in the Eastern Cape were brutally hacked to death with an axe while their one- year-old baby was crying just metres away. The bodies of Lwayithi Monise and his wife Nokwayiyo Killton, aged 35, were found with multiple stab wounds by a person who went to deliver milk to Swallows Farm between Stutterheim and Keiskammahoek.
Things like these happen virtually every day. The war of words waged against crime in the country has not been transformed successfully into deeds, and the murders in rural areas continue. It is no use talking about it, because that offers very little protection to the thousands of people who are being murdered, raped and robbed every day.
Something must happen to bring this to an end. The plans being made to prevent farm murders are not working. At the moment they are continuing. At some stage the Minister must take responsibility so that we can get meaningful plans in place at grass-roots level. Therefore, in considering this Vote, the FA votes against the Minister because there are as yet no meaningful plans in place at grass-roots level which can counteract this absolute denial of the right of law-abiding citizens.
We shall not support it.]
Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, I call upon hon Mluleki George not to pull a Johnny de Lange trick on us in his reply, by saying that a vote against this Vote will be a vote not against the ANC or against Steve Tshwete, but against every policeman and policewoman who risks his or her life. [Interjections.] We do not fall for that trick. We are here for oversight in the first place over the executive and the Minister.
Daarom kan ons nie hierdie begroting steun nie. Ons glo dat die Minister nie daarin slaag om hierdie belangrike portefeulje so te bestuur dat ons ‘n veilige Suid-Afrika kan kry nie.
Die verantwoordelikste en mees primêre taak van die owerheid is veiligheid en sekuriteit. Baie van die ander dinge waaroor ons vandag praat is nie eers in wese die taak van die owerheid nie: veiligheid en sekuriteit is wel. Die skrif se dat die owerheid so moet regeer dat ons ‘n rustige en stil lewe kan lei. Dit is alles behalwe wat ons vandag het.
Die misdaadstatistiek het dit vir ons bewys. Die Minister het ‘n jaar gelede gese dat ons vorder. Ons is afgemaak as ``prophets of doom’’. Die statistiek het eenvoudig net bevestig dat daar geen verbetering was nie. Die plaasmoorde, die agb Dr van Niekerk het daarop uitgebrei, skry nog steeds ten hemele. Solank hierdie saak nie aangespreek word nie, kan ons nooit ‘n mosie van vertroue gee in die wyse waarop hierdie Regering misdaad in Suid-Afrika bekamp nie.
Die AEB kan nie hierdie belangrike begrotingspos steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Therefore we cannot support this budget. We believe that the Minister is not succeeding in managing this important portfolio in such a way that we can achieve a safe South Africa.
The most responsible and primary task of the authorities is safety and security. Many of the other things that we are discussing today essentially do not form part of the task of the authorities: safety and security do. According to the Scriptures the authorities must govern in such a way that we can lead a peaceful and quiet life. This is by no means the case at present.
The crime statistics have proved this to us. The Minister said a year ago that we were making progress. We were slated as being prophets of doom. The statistics have simply confirmed that there has been no improvement. The farm murders - the hon Dr Van Niekerk elaborated on this - are still crying to high heaven. For as long as this matter is not addressed we can never give a vote of confidence in respect of the way in which this Government is combating crime in South Africa.
The AEB cannot support this important Vote. [Interjections.]]
Mr M E GEORGE: Mr Chairperson, I rise to support this Vote. We would, of course, be happy with more money, but what is more important is the commitment that has been demonstrated by the Minister, the national commissioner and the police to fight crime.
Again, I call - I will do that repeatedly - upon the DP, the New NP and all opposition parties to join hands with the Government to fight crime. Personal attacks on the Minister are not going to solve the problem of crime. To give an impression that nothing is done is tantamount to boosting the morale of the criminals. I am sure if the criminals were to listen to some of the members they would be saying hallelujah. [Interjections.] I want to ask the DP and the New NP on whose side they are. Are they on the side of criminals or on the side of the people who are fighting crime? There are a lot of good policemen and women who are risking their lives to protect them and who need their support. They should not always come here and complain. These people protect their lives and property, but they do not show any appreciation. They must please, once and for all, show that they appreciate what the Government is doing in fighting crime. It is the biggest challenge we are facing and we need to stand together. I appeal to them again, let us close ranks and fight crime instead of using it as a political football.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
YES - 258: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N C; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzimela, S E; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 77: Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mlambo- Ngcuka, P G; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Waters, M.
Vote No 23 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Agriculture - put and agreed to.
Vote No 25 - Communications - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms M SMUTS: Chairman, South Africa is making a false start in liberalising telecommunications. The policy directives published a few months ago will not give us the legal and regulatory stability and predictability or the conditions that we need for the sector to thrive, and therefore for the economy to thrive. I have said that we are ready and willing to help craft the law that we need, not just policy directives but a law, provided that it genuinely grapples with the challenges and demands of convergence and competition.
We note with hope and with great relief that the hon the Minister of Trade and Industry has begun to develop enterprise policy which calls for the same true telecommunications liberalisation which we propose. We have said for years that communications should go to the Minister of Trade and Industry. For now we are stuck with the present hon Minister and department. They have made - I regret to say - a spectacle of themselves throughout the Cell C saga instead of devoting their attention to taking South Africa into the future.
I just hope that the Telecommunications Amendment Bill, when it surfaces, is more respectable than the miserably inadequate policy directives and that it will have benefited from the insight of the Minister of Trade and Industry. In the meantime we vote against the Vote.
Ms S C VOS: Chairperson, the IFP does support this Vote, but we have serious concerns. This Government is now in the process of laying the foundation for the managed liberalisation of the communications sector and the introduction of competition which has the potential to attract billions of dollars of international and national investment. The IFP implores this Government and the Department of Communications in particular to recognise that no substantial or sustainable commercial investment will be forthcoming if this Government does not adequately resource and ensure the independent integrity and professional capacity of the Independent Communications Regulatory Authority of South Africa.
Furthermore, the Minister and her department must allow Icasa to operate without political manipulation or interference of any kind whatsoever, so that future investors and the public of South Africa can be assured that they will not be faced with the likes of the Cell C fiasco, which was finally concluded in a secret, out-of-court, multimillion deal, which denied the judge concerned the opportunity to offer us all his learned judgment on whether or not the selection process had indeed been politically engineered in favour of a bid with incontestable links to the ANC. This must never happen again.
Mnr J J DOWRY: Voorsitter, gesien vanuit die perspektief van die massa agtergeblewe mense, moet ons die Departement van Kommunikasie gelukwens met die baie telefoonlyne wat aangelê is, die gemeenskapsradiodienste wat gevestig is en die baie harde werk wat in daardie opsig ingestel is. Dit is egter die Poskantoor wat veel te wense oorlaat met hul swak dienslewering, pos wat verlore raak, en Poskantore wat sluit sonder behoorlike interaksie met die gemeenskap. Dit is enkele van die probleme waarmee Suid-Afrikaners daagliks sukkel.
Voeg hierby die vennootskap tussen die Suid-Afrikaanse Poskantoor en New Zealand Post International, waar laasgenoemde miljoene rande ontvang het, maar in ruil daarvoor laat hulle die Poskantoor met ‘n tekort van R1,2 miljard die afgelope twee jaar, asook 27 top swart bestuurders wat die Poskantoor verlaat het omdat dit vir hulle ondraaglik geword het. Ons het hierop antwoorde gesoek tydens die begrotingsdebat, maar nie gekry nie. Ons kan dus nie hierdie pos ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr J J DOWRY: Chairperson, seen from the perspective of the multitude of disadvantaged people, we should congratulate the Department of Communications on the many telephone lines they laid, the community radio services which were established and the very hard work done in this regard. It is, however, the Post Office which leaves much to be desired with their poor service delivery and post which gets lost as well as post offices which close their doors without proper interaction with the community. These are a few of the problems with which South Africans contend daily.
Add to this the partnership between the South African Post Office and New Zealand Post International, whereby the latter received millions of rand, but in exchange they left the Post Office with a deficit of R1,2 billion over the past two years, as well as the fact that 27 top black managers left the Post Office because it became unbearable for them. We sought answers to these issues during the budget debate but we received none. We can therefore not support this Vote.]
Mr N N KEKANA: Chairperson, the ANC supports this Vote. We are confident that the Minister and the department are on the right track. Indeed, the Ministry and the department have shown that they do listen to the public and the industry’s opinion.
Our country and our people need a modern information communications infrastructure. To us, competition and convergence are not about a kneejerk reaction to the market place. We do not believe in ``big bang’’ liberalisation.
Competition and fixed mobile convergence must contribute to the building of a world-class network. We expect the new entrant next year not to cherrypick and avoid the so-called uneconomic areas. Our people need lower prices, better services, jobs and skills development.
To us universal service is non-negotiable. It is very, very clear from this particular Vote that we as a country are going to leapfrog all technologies and deploy the latest, state-of-the-art network infrastructure. We also expect the regulator to be fully funded and be able to deliver quality regulations and licences, and to ensure that new operators adhere to the set timeframes.
We must also congratulate Cell C for their dramatic entry. Let us hope that they will have the time to build their network and ensure that our people receive quality services. We support this particular Vote and would like to thank the department and the Minister for doing a stunning job. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 255: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Govender, P; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabeta, M E; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N C; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, G D; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzimela, S E; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ngcengwane, N D; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 66: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
ABSTENTIONS - 4: Dudley, C; Madasa, Z L; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N.
Vote No 25 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 26 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr E K MOORCROFT: Chairperson, the DP and the DA believe in giving credit where credit is due. We believe that in the case of the hon the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism credit is due, and therefore we will be voting for the adoption of this Vote.
The hon the Minister has, in the past year, made a number of credit-worthy commitments. He has committed his department to increasing the size of South Africa’s protected area from 5% to 8% and thereby gave substance to our commitment to the preservation of biodiversity. He has committed his department to making the concept of transfrontier national parks a reality, thereby putting Southern Africa in the forefront of international conservation and tourism.
He has tackled the pollution problem in a meaningful way, particularly with regard to air and plastic-bag polution. We also believe that the Minister has made a real effort to sort out the chaos that has characterised the fishing industry and the issuing of permits in that industry in the past number of years.
We believe that the hosting of Earth Summit 2002 in Johannesburg brings credit to the department and the country, but we do have reservations about the financing of this event and trust that it will not prove to be a source of budgetary embarrassment to the Minister or the country in the future.
We believe that the department as a whole, and in particular the Department of Tourism, is underfunded and we call for an improvement in this regard in the future so that we can all continue to benefit from a better environment.
We trust that our support for this Vote will assist the Minister in acquiring a bigger allocation of the budget in future.
Mr K M ANDREW: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism looks a little faint. Perhaps he could be given a glass of water. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I am going to arrange pretty soon for him to have lunch. [Interjections.]
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Chairperson, the IFP supports Vote 26 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism, because we are truly and deeply committed to the philosophy that we hold the earth in trust. We wish to leave the earth to our children and in a better condition than it was given to us.
For the first time South African environmental issues are receiving serious attention, thanks to the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. We salute him. [Applause.] Five advantages come from a cleaner and healthier environment: geometric growth in tourism, better health for our citizens, international investment, better national awareness and greater international recognition.
The IFP has constantly held the view that the environment comes first. We have been a green party. The questions we have raised in this House and the contributions we have made in debates indicate clearly how deeply and passionately we feel about our commitment to the environment. We continue to see tourism as a great attractor of foreign exchange. We, therefore, support the endeavours of the department for improving our environment by increasing rural and township tourism.
Finally, one area which needs serious attention is how to take programmes of the department down to provinces, cities, towns and rural areas in this regard. Local government, agenda 21, has to be well planned in order that it succeeds. When we consider all the things the department has been doing, we, in the IFP, are happy to give our support. We shall, therefore, vote in favour of this Vote. [Applause.]
Ms G L MAHLANGU: Chairperson, in his state-of-the-nation address this year, the President identified, amongst others, tourism as a sector of our economy that requires special attention because of its potential to contribute, especially, to the objectives of a higher growth rate and job creation. The programme of the department to implement the President’s call is satisfactory and must be supported by all South Africans.
Transformation initiatives indicate that the department takes Parliament seriously, after hon members raised these issues last year. The road to making ownership patterns of the tourism industry representative is still long, but we are making progress every day.
Government procurement must be more directed towards SMMEs and black-owned enterprises, so that we put our money where our mouth is. Due to the deep significance of the Earth Summit to the planet and its People, our country was voted to host this important event next year.
The war on illegal activities against those who plunder our natural resources is also being intensified by the department, as we all witnessed yesterday’s major poaching bust by the Minister and the Scorpions. Between August 2000 and April 2001 alone, 900 persons were arrested; 68 701 abalone worth R8 million, over 13 000 rock lobsters, and 39 vehicles were confiscated, and 127 000 spot fines were issued. Halala, Minister Steve Tshwete halala!
Hon members must never forget the relationship between the moon and the dogs. The moon is full at the moment. There is access to tourist destinations for all the people, including those who are physically challenged. Indeed, South Africa belongs to all who live in it, and I am very proud to say this today. [Applause.]
Vote No 26 agreed to.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Seeing that some of you are looking pale and in need of sustenance, I think that this is an appropriate time to adjourn for lunch. The House will resume at 14:00.
Business suspended at 12:57 and resumed at 14:04.
Afternoon Sitting
Vote No 27 - Labour - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr N J CLELLAND: Madam Speaker, labour is not working and I will tell members why. [Interjections.] The financial position of the Unemployment Insurance Fund has, according to the Auditor-General, deteriorated significantly and is technically insolvent. The Auditor-General’s report reads like a worst-case wish list of public finance management. To make matters worse, the Unemployment Insurance Amendment Bill is riddled with technical problems and political conundrums and is still languishing somewhere in the legislative quagmire.
Setas, the so-called disbursement machines of the National Skills Development Strategy, were only able to pay R47 million last year, out of the R1,25 billion collected - that is 3,7% of their budget. The director- general earlier this year assured me personally that there was absolutely no backlog in terms of casualties dealt with by occupational health and safety. But, the hon the Minister, in reply to a question, recently confirmed that there were massive backlogs in terms of both fatal and nonfatal casualties. Maybe the director-general should check his facts before speaking to the parliamentary committee.
Also, 619 out of 719 inspectors countrywide are not qualified to do the occupational health and safety work the Minister has accredited them to do. Occupation health and safety is responsible for the health and safety of all workers in this country. It appears that the Minister and his department have put the South African workforce at risk. The Minister must be held accountable for this grave situation.
But this is all quite insignificant when one realises that there are people out there who do not have a job and have no prospect of ever getting a job. Frankly, the Minister of Labour must take his fair share of the blame.
The economy is burdened by unnecessary regulations and an inflexible labour regime, strangling all of us. Until the Minister can introduce amendments to encourage investment and economic growth the DP and the DA will not support this Vote. [Applause.]
Mr N S MIDDLETON: Madam Speaker, Deputy President and hon members, one thing must be said about this department and that is that it has done its planning, it has introduced policies and it has created enough projects. But what is missing is the implementation of all these. This applies to most of our departments today. Ministers have good ideas, they have a vision and they plan well, but when it goes down to grass-roots level it does not show returns. That is where the problem lies. [Interjections.]
What I wanted to do today was to direct myself personally to the Minister. Unfortunately, I do not see him here today. I wanted to talk to him personally because, firstly, I know him. He grew up in front of me. I knew him as a lion, not the tamed lion that he is now. [Laughter.] But, having said that, I think I am going to ask …
Ngizocela lo mfana ongala uLangeni ukuthi ahambe ayomtshela ukuthi ubaba wakhe u-Norman utheni kuyena, ngoba ngiyamazi ungumfana wami, kanti naye lona futhi ungumfana wami. [I would like to ask this boy Langeni to go and tell that person what his father Norman said to him, because I know him, he is my boy and this one is also my boy.]
Tell the Minister this: There is no person in the world today, created by God, who can in all sincerity satisfy all the people all the time. It is natural. That person has not been born yet. But, I want to say to the Minister that he must now act as the leader that I knew in labour, and start leading instead of being led. In that regard I want to say to the Minister that he must stop looking behind his back and he must stop trying to please other people, because if one tries to please other people one ends up pleasing nobody. The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr N S MIDDLETON: And if a job has to be done and action has to be taken …
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your time for declaration has expired.
Mr N S MIDDLETON: Madam Speaker, I cannot believe that. [Laughter.]
Mr M N RAMODIKE: Madam Speaker, contrary to what my colleague has said just now, I want to congratulate the Department of Labour, particularly after our visit to the Northern Province as the Portfolio Committee on Labour. I believe the Department of Labour is working there. Perhaps I would not have known that the Department of Labour was in labour. [Laughter.] The UDM will vote for the adoption of this Vote.
However, we note with grave concern the failure of Government to fulfil promises and honour some agreements entered into between labour and Government at Nedlac and other forums, in particular to address seriously the high rate of unemployment in this country, characterised by lack of security, looming retrenchments, loss of benefits, lack of human resource training and outsourcing. I believe one of these days we might have a situation where we have downsourcing, upsourcing, sidesourcing, and even powder and potatosourcing. [Laughter.]
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Me die Speaker, die VF sal nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie, en wel om die volgende redes. Die agb Minister is die hoof en hy staan aan die spits van arbeidswetgewing in Suid-Afrika. Hierdie agb Minister het wetgewing goedgekeur wat diskrimineer teen blankes, veral die blanke jeug. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Met sy wet oor billike indiensneming is die agb Minister daarvoor verantwoordelik dat talle blanke kinders vandag in Londen sit en nie in Suid-Afrika nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is hierdie wetgewing wat kundigheid die land laat verlaat. Dit is kundigheid wat tot voordeel van Suid-Afrika aangewend moes word wat nou die land verlaat en tot voordeel van ander lande aangewend word.
Die agb Minister is aan die hoof van wetgewing wat verhoed dat beleggings in Suid-Afrika gemaak word. Die arbeidswetgewing is van so ‘n aard dat ‘n persoon wat graag ‘n belegging wil maak om ‘n nywerheid iewers te vestig eerder na ander lande se arbeidswetgewing gaan kyk waar dit gunstiger is en waar ‘n beter belegging gemaak kan word. Die agb Minister van Arbeid is die oorsaak dat daar werkloosheid is in Suid-Afrika, want as daar nie beleggings in Suid-Afrika plaasvind nie, kan daar nie werkgeleenthede geskep word vir die mense nie.
Dan is die houding wat sommige amptenare van die departement het, wat in die media openlik sê hulle sal ondernemings toemaak wat nie voldoen aan die vereistes van die wet oor billike indiensneming nie, eintlik ‘n skande, want dié mense dreig sakelui deur te sê daar kan liewers minder werkgeleenthede wees, maar hulle sal daardie ondernemings toemaak. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Die VF kan nooit hierdie begrotingspos steun nie, want dit is diskriminerend. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, the FF will not support this Vote, and specifically fact for the following reasons. The hon the Minister is the head and he is at the head of labour legislation in South Africa. This hon Minister has approved legislation that discriminates against whites, especially the white youth. [Interjections.]
By means of his Act concerning equitable employment, the hon the Minister is responsible for many white children today being in London and not in South Africa. [Interjections.] It is this legislation that is causing expertise to leave the country. This is expertise that should have been utilised for the benefit of South Africa, but is now leaving the country and being used for the benefit of other countries.
The hon the Minister is at the head of legislation that prevents investments from being made in South Africa. The labour legislation is such that a person who would have liked to make an investment to establish an industry somewhere prefers to go and look at the labour legislation of other countries, where it is more favourable and where a better investment could be made. The hon the Minister of Labour is the cause of unemployment in South Africa, because if investments are not made in South Africa, job opportunities cannot be created for the people.
The attitude of certain officials of the department, who say openly in the media that they would close down businesses that do not comply with the requirements of the laws concerning employment equity is a disgrace, because these people threaten business people by saying that it is preferable for there to be fewer job opportunities, because they would close down those enterprises. [Interjections.]
The FF could never support this Vote, because it is discriminatory. [Interjections.]]
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, the hon the President, in his state of the nation address in February 2000, stated that our labour laws had unforeseen consequences and should be addressed. Up until now, nothing substantial has been addressed. One of these unforeseen, or perhaps foreseen, consequences is the effect of affirmative action.
Ons bekommernis oor hierdie wetgewing is dat ondernemings regstellende optrede sien as niks anders nie as rassetransformasie. Die gevolg is nuwe rassisme en diskriminasie. Dit het niks met gelykheid te doen nie, maar met die skep van nuwe ongelykhede. Indien die Regering ernstig is om rassisme uit te roei, sal die rassistiese gevolge van hierdie wetgewing onder oë geneem moet word.
Die volgende sake moet aandag kry, en dit gebeur nie. Daar is nie ‘n eindpunt - ‘n ``sunset clause’’ - vir regstellende optrede nie. Daar word geensins voorsiening gemaak om hierdie negatiewe uitwerking teen te werk nie. Ons jongmense word gepenaliseer vir ‘n saak waaraan hulle geen aandeel gehad het nie, en hulle vlug die land uit. Alternatiewe word nie geskep vir mense wat deur regstellende optrede benadeel word nie. Geen kode is opgestel om nuwe rassisme te keer nie. Die Regering tree nie op teen ondernemings wat nuwe vorms van rassisme en diskriminasie inlui nie.
Intussen word daar werkers van buite ingevoer; Kubaanse onderwysers en Amerikaanse lugvaartbestuurders, wat werk by ons nóg minder maak. Die AEB is nie vir rassisme nie en kan daarom nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie, omdat dit nuwe rassediskriminasie skep. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Our concern about this legislation is that enterprises view affirmative action as nothing other than racial transformation. The consequence is new racism and discrimination. This has nothing to do with equality, but with the creation of new inequalities. If Government is serious about eradicating racism, the racist consequences of this legislation will have to be examined.
The following matters must receive attention, and this is not happening. There is no end point - a sunset clause - for affirmative action. Absolutely no provision is made to counter this negative effect. Our young people are being penalised for a matter in which they had no part, and they are fleeing the country. Alternatives are not being created for people who are negatively affected by affirmative action. No code has been drafted to prevent new racism. The Government does not act against enterprises which usher in new forms of racism and discrimination.
In the meantime, workers are being imported from abroad; Cuban teachers and American aviation managers, who reduce our jobs even further. The AEB is not in favour of racism and can therefore not support this Vote, because it creates new racial discrimination.]
Mr M S MANIE: Madam Speaker, every year the DA is so predictable. Every year they vote against the same Votes. We always know beforehand which Votes they are going to support and which they will vote against. By claiming that labour is not working, they have shown their true colours. They have adopted a slogan from the earlier years of the Conservative Party of the UK.
The ANC is fully aware of the importance of both business and labour. These interests need to be balanced to promote the interests of the country as a whole. But, the DA promotes the interests of big business only and attacks not only the Government but also Cosatu at every opportunity they get. Why do they do this? It is because they are vehemently opposed to transformation. This is why they are opposing this Vote. Many of them have built their wealth and the positions they have today by exploiting workers in the past, because the old apartheid laws allowed them to do it legally.
The sad thing about this is that they give their supporters the impression that they can roll back the past and create those old apartheid conditions again. Unfortunately for them, we have to inform them that those days are gone forever. We do not want to build our economy on starvation wages and discrimination like they did in the past. This Vote is about raising the skills base of our workforce, eradicating discrimination and inequality in the workplace, fair labour practices in the workplace and promoting co- operation between business and labour.
The DA and those who have opposed this Budget Vote can fight back, and oppose change and transformation until they are blue in the face but they will not stop us. We support this Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 245: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabeta, M E; Madasa, Z L; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, P F; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 65: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M. Vote No 27 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 28 - Land Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Speaker, as already mentioned here today, our country is facing a crisis with regard to HIV/Aids, crime, unemployment and corruption. To this must be added the issue of land reform, which could become a very serious crisis if it is not attended to with vigour. Fortunately for the country, the hon the Minister has applied her mind to this matter with very positive results. During the budget debate we commended the innovative prioritising of funds from land reform to restitution, the latter being a more pressing issue at the moment.
While we therefore support the Vote, we warn again that the allocation falls far short of what is needed. This is amply demonstrated by the growing frustration experienced by affected parties, some of whom resort to illegal land invasions. The Government reacted to the latest illegal land invasion in Kuruman with commendable dispatch, so that this challenge to the rule of law was not rewarded. However, in some other cases, such as at Mangete in KwaZulu-Natal, the Minister of Safety and Security has failed the people dismally, with widespread arson and anarchy being the result.
The Democratic Alliance demands that somebody in the Cabinet must restore the rule of law so that the stakeholders in agriculture can get on with this most important aspect of nation-building in peace while also correcting some of the wrongs of the past. The President praised the positive attitude of farmers regarding land reform. For those who know agriculture this positive attitude was not surprising. The Democratic Alliance therefore once again calls for vastly increased budgeting for land reform and the meaningful development of public-private partnerships by engaging all stakeholders, and to do so outside the ambit of political posturing.
The DP will support the Vote.
Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, if there are two issues that could derail our fragile democracy, they are poverty on the one hand and land restitution on the other. These two issues can lead to consequences which can be too ghastly to contemplate.
With regard to land reform I want to appeal to the hon the Minister that, while I am satisfied that she is underfunded and therefore this particular department is underperforming, we need to see her adequately empowered financially to carry out the tasks that lie ahead. What is important here is to see to it that our people have access to title deeds, because that would in turn lead to access to capital when they have collateral with which to trade.
There is a tardiness in the Department of Land Affairs with long delays being experienced in finalising claims. When one writes to the department there is a standard reply, and that is that one’s claim does not fall within the area that is currently a priority. I believe that all areas in our country are priorities; all claims are priorities and the hon the Minister should see to it that her department is adequately resourced as far as human resources are concerned to carry out this task.
I must also congratulate the Minister on the manner in which she handled the Boomplaats issue. I think the hon the Minister accepts that a bad settlement is normally better than a good court case. I believe that that is the way we should go in order to see to it that land restitution is succeeding. Of course, we need to see that there is a balance between the aspirations of our people and the fears of those who own land. That fine line needs to be trodden carefully so that we have success at the end of the day.
We will be supporting this Vote.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the Almighty God is the God of justice. We please Him when we do what is right, just and fair, neither showing favouritism nor denying justice to the poor. The Government’s programme of land reform is directed towards land restitution, land redistribution and tenure reform. It aims at extending security of tenure to all South Africans, which the ACDP supports.
Whilst we are very aware of the fine balance that must be found between the rights of the landless and those of the landowners, the ACDP recognises the necessity of land reform, and commends the Minister for the fact that she and her department have remained steadfast, under pressure, in their determination to retain and improve existing standards of utilisation. For this reason, training and support of new landowners is of the utmost importance in order to develop the necessary expertise.
Africa has the ability to feed the entire world twice over. Yet still Africa is impoverished. A continent blessed with abundant resources and capable of feeding the world is starving. But this does not have to be our story. When our leaders and Constitution acknowledge the God of creation, curses and poverty will be lifted off our land, making way for blessing and prosperity.
The three land reform programmes are still a long way from achieving the desired results but are careful steps towards a positive future for all. Restitution is not a concept we should be afraid of; in fact, it is clearly a biblical principle. And we encourage those who are called by His name to take up the challenge of working together towards achieving a fair and just society for all South Africans. Crime of course must be dealt with and where funds are necessary these need to be made available. But the ACDP will vote in favour of the Land Affairs budget. Viva Jesu!
Adv S P HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker, in the firm belief that the land shall be shared among those who work it, the ANC supports the Land Affairs Vote.
In recent years the Department of Land Affairs has demonstrated an increasing ability to spend most of its allocation, and as a result there is clear evidence of accelerated land delivery. Every other week South Africans bear witness to the practical redress of some of the injustices of the past when the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, together with the Land Claims Commission, restore land to communities who were dispossessed of their land by the racist governments of the past. With the restoration of land comes the restoration of the human dignity of the victims of forced removals.
The integrated and co-ordinated approach adopted by the Minister with regard to land reform ensures that land acquired by individuals or communities is used for purposes for which it is suited. In addition, support measures are provided for recipients of land to ensure the productive and sustainable use of such land.
We therefore challenge the critics of the department in this House to come up with workable alternative plans to deal with the historical problem of landlessness by the majority of our people. Regrettably, they certainly do not have any. The rule of law that has been spoken of here is the guiding policy of this Government in all its actions, unlike that of our predecessors.
The farming community is grateful for the work that the Minister of Safety and Security is doing in ensuring that perpetrators of crime and murderers are brought to book. Access to title deed does not automatically lead to people accessing loans. Studies have shown that communal ownership of land does lead, in certain cases, to productive use of the land. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Vote No 28 agreed to (Freedom Front and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).
Vote No 29 - Minerals and Energy - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr I O DAVIDSON: Madam Speaker, the DA indicated clearly, during the course of the debate on the Vote, the numerous shortfalls and failures of the department during the past year. [Interjections.] It is not my intention to repeat that liturgy. To be frank, at the time of the budget debate, the view of the DA which, at that stage, was to oppose the budget, was moulded not so much by the lack of sufficient delivery but more by the content of a piece of legislation compiled by the department, namely the Minerals Development Bill.
Our view was, and it remains, that if there was one piece of legislation which singlehandedly attacked both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution and had the real consequence of encouraging foreign and domestic investment flight, and ironically made it virtually impossible for emerging black entrepreneurs to even begin to play a meaningful role in this industry, it was that Bill.
Our views were not out of line with the views of the international community, conferences in Canada and London echoed that view, as did the Chamber of Mines locally. However, all this was ignored. It took a last- minute emergency intervention by the President at the behest of the president of the Chamber of Mines to bring the parties together. [Interjections.] We are grateful for that.
The SPEAKER: Order!
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The hon the Minister said that the hon Davidson was lying. That is, obviously, unparliamentary. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, would you please withdraw that comment. It is unparliamentary. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Madam Speaker, he is not telling the truth. That is just a fact.
The SPEAKER: Order! Will you withdraw the statement you made, that he was lying?
The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: He was not lying but he was just not telling the truth. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, please just withdraw that statement!
The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: I withdraw it, Madam Speaker. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Order! [Interjections.]
Mr T D LEE: Madam Speaker, on a further point of order: The hon Hangana used the same words. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Ms Hangana, if you said that, would you please withdraw it. [Interjections.] Order!
Ms N E HANGANA: Madam Speaker, this member … [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, if you used those words, please withdraw them.
Ms N E HANGANA: Yes, I did, Madam Speaker. He was not lying but he was not telling the truth. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, will you please withdraw the words you used.
Ms N E HANGANA: Madam Speaker, I withdraw it. Mr I O DAVIDSON: Madam Speaker, that hon member knows nothing of what I am talking about. We are now advised that the Bill is to be revised to take account of the agreement reached with the Chamber of Mines of South Africa
- an agreement which should have been concluded at the beginning of the process. In the light of this turnaround, we will now support the Vote. But, we will be vigilant in seeing that both the letter and the spirit of the agreement are enshrined in the legislation. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mnu D M NKOSI: Somlomo, mangiveze nje ukuthi mhlawumbe ozakwethu be-DP kuzofuneka ukuthi bakhulume kancane ngoba umsebenzi mningi. Ayingangamlomo! Mangisho kubo ukuthi kulomThethosivivinywa wokuThuthukiswa kweziMbiwa ukuthi noma-ke uNgqongqoshe ebengakhulumi ngendlela efanele, kuzofuneka balalelisise mhlawumbe bazofunda okuningi. Sizolokhu siqhubekela phambili sizama ukubasiza ngoba bayasala kwezinye izindawo.
Mangisho ukuthi okubaluleke kakhulu ngukuthi njengoba ekhona umphathizimali noSekela Mongameli naye ekhona, lo Ngqongqoshe wezaMandla neziMbiwa ubaluleke kakhulu ngoba usakhela umnotho. Uma amalungu ahloniphekile engamenza aqine ukuze akwazi ukusebenza kahle kungaba kuhle. Nami njengoba ngikhuluma naye ngqo nje, yingoba uphethe imali. Phela umnotho ngeke ukhule uma singalungisi kahle, sifake yonke into ezosisiza ukuthi sikwazi ukuqhubekela phambili. Lo Ngqongqoshe-ke kufanele asisize ukuthi sikwazi ukwakha umnotho.
KuSekela Mongameli ngithi: ezingeni likaHululumeni, kufanele sithathe isinqumo sokuthi sifuna ukwenzani ngalo Ngqongqoshe. Uma sifuna ukwakha umnotho ngamandla, asimsebenzise ukuze sikwazi ukuqhubekela phambili.
Sethemba ukuthi amalungu ahloniphekile ezwile ngoba nabo laba abangapha be- DP balwa nje, kungoba bengalalelisisi kahle. Akuzange kwaba nengxabano. Thina, uma kuqhubeka isikhathi, lo msebenzi sizowuqhuba. Njengoba sebevuma kancane nje, bazogcina sebevumelana nathi. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)
[Mr D M NKOSI: Madam Speaker, I must say that our colleagues in the DP should talk less because there is a lot of work. They talk too much and do not deliver! I must say that although the Minister did not speak in a proper manner with regard to the Bill on minerals and energy, the DP should listen or perhaps they might lose a lot. We will continue to help them because they are behind in some of the areas.
I must say that although the Minister of Finance and the Deputy President are here, the Minister of Minerals and Energy is very important, because she builds wealth for us. It will be good if the hon members could strengthen her so that she could work well. I am talking to her today, because she controls the money. I am saying she must put money in there so that we can work. The economy cannot grow if we do not make good preparations by putting forward whatever we can so that we can make progress. This Minister should help us so that we can build wealth.
I would like to say to the Deputy President that at Government level we should take decisions as to what we want to do with this Minister. If we want to build the economy and increase energy, we must use her so that we can make progress.
I hope that hon members got the message, because the reason why the DP is fighting is because they do not listen. There was no conflict. We will push this work as time goes on. As they agree slowly at the moment, they will end up agreeing with us fully. [Applause.]]
Vote No 29 agreed to.
Vote No 30 - Public Works - put and agreed to.
Vote No 31 - Trade and Industry - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr N S BRUCE: Madam Speaker, the President has often referred, in this Chamber, to this country becoming a more caring society, and no one could reasonably argue with that even if one is a smart aleck.
Over the past years, many of those suffering from incurable diseases, the infirmities of senility, the torments of derangement, the finality of Aids, those whose sufferings are reduced by charity, have been rejected by a country that is becoming increasingly obsessed by gambling. Their sufferings, I am sorry to say, have been increased by the deprivation of charitable funding caused by the imposition of the Government monopoly on fundraising, through the National Lottery.
The lack, as from that time, of a mechanism to distribute the lottery proceeds is not a manifestation of a caring society. In fact, the Department of Trade and Industry’s attitude to the distribution of lottery funds to charities has been careless, uncaring and uncompromising.
The National Lottery monopoly is an effective tax on the poor which has benefited only those chosen by the ruling party, viz the shareholders and the lottery management company, Uthingo, and many of the trade unions that have an interest in it and the affiliates of the members of the gambling authority. That is a scandal. One does not have to be a thumbscrew to realise that.
The function of the Department of Trade and Industry is to regulate and administer a competitive, efficient and equitable economy. The lottery scandal demonstrates a substantial failure to do so. I could go on, but let me say that I stand here today, and I speak for the poor, the sick, and the suffering. [Interjections.] I do so coming from a party that has not had its palms greased by Jurgen Shrimm, and whose 4X4’s are all paid for. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Speaker, the hon Bruce must have been affected by the eclipse of the sun. [Laughter.] [Applause.] The IFP will support the Vote on Trade and Industry. The Ministry and the Department of Trade and Industry are responsible for creating an ideal environment in which legal trade and activities can be conducted with minimum obstacles and interference. Furthermore, the department should encourage the creation of small and medium enterprises, particularly in the tourism industry which is known for its excellent capability to create jobs.
Internationally, it is essential that South Africa becomes more competitive and a leading export country instead of a country replacing with imports. In this regard the Minister has announced the creation of industrial development zones and spatial development regions. Major incentives are also being made available for manufacturing and tourism in terms of the SMEDP and other initiatives. Large manufacturing and industrial enterprises will, in future, be supported by SIP’s or Strategic Industrial Projects. There will now be a scheme of major tax relief or tax holidays and, hopefully, many new investments will flow to South Africa.
The IFP will support all actions that will support greater trade activity and we will encourage the Minister to go much further with the concept of industrial development zones to include also so-called free port area. Then we will see real fixed investment and foreign investment in South Africa. The IFP will support Vote 31. [Applause.]
Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the ACDP acknowledges that the strategic objectives of the DTI are commendable and efforts to develop small, medium and micro enterprises are encouraging, although access to finance and other help is not yet a reality on the ground.
Whilst we support these efforts, we cannot support the budget as we believe that the Government’s policy on gambling will continue to undermine all serious efforts to build this nation. The ACDP is on record as having opposed the Lotteries Act and the National Gambling Act. We believe gambling is destructive, and socioeconomic impact studies already confirm the negative consequences being experienced in communities. Even the hon the Minister of Social Development has objected to the fact that it is his budget that is funding the gambling culture in South Africa, as it preys on the poor and the desperate. What we have said for the past seven years must therefore be repeated. Gambling does not create jobs because it does not create wealth but rather consumes it. If people did not spend money on gambling they would spend it on something else, creating more useful jobs in other sectors.
The ACDP calls for a radical change of policy on gambling, strict advertising regulations and a moratorium on gambling licences, including casinos and limited pay-out machines. Secondly, as the Liquor Bill will soon be on the agenda again, it is worth noting that it is estimated that South Africans consume more that six billion litres of alcohol every year. Studies show that a repeated link is made by commissioners between crime and substance abuse, particularly alcohol, and that the road accident rate in relation to drunken driving and drunk pedestrians in South Africa is staggering.
The state has a responsibility to protect people from abuse and, as overliberal access to alcohol means enhanced capacity to abuse alcohol, some controls are necessary. The ACDP would like to see liquor kept out of residential areas altogether and is not in favour of supermarket supply. The ACDP will abstain on this Vote due to the gambling issue.
Dr R H DAVIES: Madam Speaker, I was astounded to learn just now that the DA is going to vote against the R2,2 billion budget of the department, which is actually at the very forefront of efforts to bring about economic growth in this country, on the basis of a series of unfounded allegations about the lotteries. I can only assume that Mr Bruce dusted off last year’s speech and gave it again without bothering to find out what the real situation is. At the end of last year an interim payment was made to a number of charities which had previously relied on lotteries, and the procedures for the long-term distribution of lottery funds are actually already in place.
This department has a critical role to play. It has undergone major restructuring which is already yielding positive results in service delivery, not least in the area of financial management. It has largely overcome the problem of roll-overs which it had in previous years and is now receiving praise for its compliance with the Public Finance Management Act.
The ACDP should not pretend that it is the only party that is concerned about the social impact of gambling. The problem is that they do not state explicitly what their proposed solution is. One can infer from what they say that it would be prohibition. But the problem with that is that the commission which actually developed our gambling policy showed that prohibition would simply drive gambling activities underground and place gamblers at the mercy of unregulated operators.
The road which we have chosen is one of regulation. It is a difficult road and I am pleased to see that the centre of gravity of the debate has shifted to trying to ensure that gambling activities do not have detrimental effects on low-income people.
The ANC will of course support the Vote of this important department. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 254: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabeta, M E; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N O; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana- Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 60: Andrew, K M; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
ABSTENTIONS - 7: Aucamp, C; Dudley, C; Green, L M; Madasa, Z L; Pheko, S E M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N.
Vote No 31 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 32 - Transport - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S B FARROW: Madam Speaker, during the debate on Transport, Vote 32, on 19 June, I highlighted some serious concerns with regard to the high accident rate, the deterioration of our roads and rail infrastructure, and the delays in resolving taxi violence and restructuring.
Of these three issues, strangely enough, the golden thread throughout the debate from all parties, including the Minister himself, was the aspect of deteriorating infrastructure. The Minister chose to respond to the DA’s concern as hot air and yet, irrespective of the budget’s serious shortfalls, the ANC will, no doubt, choose to support the budget today, a case of simple hypocrisy.
What all of us here should have been saying to the Minister of Finance, since our Minister is here on behalf of the 3,86 million motor car users, 252 000 minibus users, 24 000 bus operators, 227 000 heavy truckers, 1,2 million bakkie drivers and one million motor cyclists, is that we seriously need to tackle these problems head-on through whatever means, be it loans, private-public partnerships or underutilised job creation funds, because failure to do so will result in destroying a highly crucial social and economic component of this country.
The Department of Transport and its agencies, road and rail, cannot be expected successfully to undertake its function with the present 2001-02 allocations, and a new prioritisation needs to take place within the supplementary budget review. This consideration should be done in the light of the growing public concern that if nearly R700 million can be squandered on the SAA CEO, his consultants and expatriates, over R43 billion on the escalating arms procurement deal, as well as more than R300 million on the presidential jet, then why can we not find sufficient funds to allocate to maintain our roads? [Applause.]
Dr W A ODENDAAL: Madam Speaker, due to the neglect by this ANC Government, the commuter industry, whether it is the bus, the taxi or the rail commuter industry, has today become a killing field. Every day people are dying unnecessarily.
As gevolg van verwaarlosing het die vervoerbedryf in Suid-Afrika so agteruitgegaan dat geen pendelaar met sekerheid kan sê of hy of sy môreoggend betyds by sy of haar werk sal wees nie. Mense verloor hul werk. In plaas daarvan dat vervoer as ‘n ekonomiese vermenigvuldiger aangewend word, het dit ‘n vernietiger van werkgeleenthede in Suid-Afrika geword. Tot tyd en wyl die ANC-regering begin aandag gee aan die belange van Suid- Afrika se pendelaars, kan ons nooit dié begrotingspos steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Owing to neglect, the transport industry in South Africa has deteriorated to such an extent that no commuter can say with certainty whether he or she will be in time for work the next day. People lose their jobs. Instead of transport being used as an economic multiplier, it has become a destroyer of job opportunities in South Africa. Until such time as the ANC Government starts devoting attention to the interests of South African commuters, we can never support this Vote.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, the level of noise in this House is unacceptably high. Hon members must reduce their private business.
Mr T ABRAHAMS: Madam Speaker, the UDM has indicated that it will support the Vote on Transport. Although, like everyone else who is involved in this portfolio, we are concerned about inadequate budgeting, we remain of the view that more money is needed for the replacement and upgrading of infrastructure and rolling stock.
We support the budget, although it is inadequate, because there is so much else that is wrong and can be corrected even in the absence of adequate funding. In the debate, I drew attention to effective policing, particularly of rail commuters and property of the railways.
However, since then, it has come to light that Metrorail in Tshwane, by hiring private security to patrol its lines, has chosen a company that uses cowboys who have no regard for horses. A TV programme has highlighted the abuse and suffering to which aged and otherwise unsuitable horses are subjected.
Of greater concern is the blasé attitude displayed by the spokesman of Metrorail. He simply said: ``It is not our problem. We hired the service provider. Can we be blamed if the service provider does not take care of its horses?’’ That is the type of attitude that can be changed. No money is needed to change attitudes, and that is what we maintain. Otherwise, we support the Vote.
Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Speaker and hon members, we think that the transport message is starting to get across publicly. For instance, last month someone saw a hearse on the way to the cemetery with a sticker on the back window saying ``Arrive Alive’’. [Laughter.]
This budget does not make such extraordinary and extravagant claims, but it is important. I listened carefully to what some hon members of the opposition had to say. There was nothing of substance that they said with which we do not agree. We all agree that we need major investment in rail and road infrastructure. We also agree that this budget on its own is not sufficient to do that. We need to find other funding mechanisms, and the Minister himself said that he was pursuing this matter.
Where there is a difference, is that there is a tendency in some quarters to imagine that this backlog in road and rail is suddenly a new thing that has happened in the last four, five, six or seven years. It is particularly galling when some hon members whose parties unleashed violence on our trains in the early nineties, tell us about violence and lack of safety on trains.
This budget will also make an important contribution to law enforcement and safety. We will see the implementation of a road traffic management system and a rail safety regulator and the consolidation of the real gains that we have made with Arrive Alive.
This budget also envisages major transfers to local government level to ensure proper planning of transport, including in Cape Town. Those who are voting against this budget, will have to explain to voters, including those in Cape Town, why they are opposing the budget that envisages and ensures that there is much better metro control and planning of transport. I hope that in trying to do that they will arrive alive, when they try to explain that. The ANC supports this Vote.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 259: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabeta, M E; Madasa, Z L; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makwetla, S P; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Msomi, M D; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 65: Andrew, K M; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Vote No 32 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 33 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr G B D McINTOSH: Madam Speaker, the Western Cape is the only part of South Africa which is currently experiencing water restrictions. We have an expanding population in the province because of urbanisation and economy. In addition to the need for water saving, there is a planned and approved Skuifraam Dam on the Berg River. That is vital to address the water needs in this region.
There is now a report that the Minister, who is not in the House now to confirm this, has vetoed the imminent construction of that dam for the time being. If this report is true, he needs to clarify this for us, because it is an extremely serious matter, not only for the Western Cape, but for South Africa.
There is a financial debacle around the Umgeni Water Board and its ability to predict and plan for the declining consumption by the Durban Metro. This is an example of poorly managed transformation. At least the Minister has restructured the board, but the chairman should have been fired as well.
The manner and pace at which the state’s forestry assets are being privatised is a matter for concern and needs the careful attention of this House. Despite warning signs, not least the Auditor-General’s worrying report on community water supply, we will not vote against this Vote, largely because we support the provision of six kilolitres of free water in urban areas, and because, generally speaking, we want to see the most efficient and expeditious delivery of those basic supply in areas where the Democratic Party is in government.
Iqembu lethu liyakhula, phambili, DA, phambili! [Our party is growing, forward, DA, forward!]
The SPEAKER: Order!
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I am afraid that the hon member raised his hand in a Nazi salute. [Interjections.] Even if it was not intended, I would like to ask that he be called to order for that. Or, perhaps it is a signal of what is represented in this House. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Nazi salutes will not be permissible in this House, or regarded as parliamentary. I would ask the hon member to withdraw them and all those on this side of the House who responded in like manner.
Mr G B D McINTOSH: Madam Speaker, I think that we all know that if one says
forward'', that is one thing. [Interjections.] We all know that the Nazi
salute is accompanied by two words,Heil Hitler’’. If the hon Minister of
Finance does not know the difference between Phambili, DA'' andHeil
Hitler’’, that is his problem, not mine. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member Ntuli?
Mrs B M NTULI: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it not true that the Bible says what comes out is what is inside. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!
Mrs B M NTULI: The member was telling us what is inside him is the Nazi salute. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, that is not a point of order and you will not use excuses to make speeches.
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, the IFP supports Vote No 33 - Water Affairs and Forestry. Since 1994 many black South Africans have begun to enjoy water on tap for the first time. This was one of the first benefits to flow to the previously marginalised people of this country. While millions of people now receive clean water by turning on a tap, there are thousands of households in rural areas where water has to be fetched from rivers and pools which are referred to as amachibi in Zulu.
The IFP supports a policy of providing water purifying chemicals in sachets. One sachet can provide 20 litres of clean and safe drinking water. If households are provided with 30 sachets per month, health problems will diminish. The outbreak of cholera in KwaZulu-Natal and in other provinces clearly showed how quickly the problem can spread. Fighting the outbreak of diseases is costly and difficult. Our view is that every household has the right to clean and safe water for drinking and cooking.
We are happy with the manner in which the department has been taking service to the people. If sachets with chemicals are provided, the service can reach even the most remote areas of our country. Accordingly, the IFP expresses its support for Vote No 33.
Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Speaker, last year during the hon the Minister’s first Vote debate, it was pointed out to the hon the Minister that two independent studies done by NGOs, evaluating community water and sanitation projects since 1994, found that between 50% and 90% of the projects were in total disarray. This was pointed out, in terms of failure to deliver, to the hon the Minister, as well as the fact that only 21% of the projects undertaken were fully operational.
It was also pointed out during this year’s Vote debate that the second economic and social rights report of the Human Rights Commission of September 2000 found that more than 80% of households in rural areas did not have access to piped water and sanitation, and that 74% of rural African households needed to fetch water daily.
The latest Auditor-General’s report on the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry for the year ending 31 March 2000, is even more damning and tells the sorry story of poor Government delivery to the poor in rural areas, of inefficiency in managing both the construction and sustainability of water projects in community areas, and of inadequate financial information on a R1,5 billion water trading account.
The following are a few of the highlights in the Auditor-General’s report. An amount of R19,8 million is unaccounted for through double payments and disallowances. By August 1999 only 19% of approved RDP projects, viz 195 out of 1 025, had been completed. In six provinces R556 million has been spent on schemes where cost recovery was only R5 million. Local authorities will not take transfer of water schemes developed by the department because they are financially unsustainable and will impoverish the local governments.
Notwithstanding the said shortcomings, which we view in a very serious light, but in view of the overall good work done by the department and the positive plans of action to address these shortcomings, as the hon the Minister mentioned in his budget debate, the New NP and the DA will support the Vote. [Time expired.]
Ms B P SONJICA: Madam Speaker, in Kliptown on this day - 26 June 1955 - the ANC, having noted the imbalances created by apartheid laws in South African society, declared in the Freedom Charter that our country would never be prosperous or free until all people lived in brotherhood, enjoyed equal rights and equal opportunities. That declaration, in its broad sense, is what informs the transformation agenda of the ANC, as the leading party in Government.
There is no question that the ANC’s performance in delivering basic services to the poor, eg water, housing and electricity, is unprecedented in the history of South Africa. [Interjections.] Changing the lives of the poor, the rural, the vulnerable and the previously excluded majority remains at the top of the agenda of the ANC-led Government, an objective that the Government seeks to realise through the Integrated Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal strategy respectively.
Furthermore, the Government has consistently ensured that social spending forms the largest category of its expenditure. The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the Department of Local Government, being central to the delivery of basic services, have benefited significantly, especially in the 2001-02 budget.
The issues that have been raised by the opposition around restructuring, and all the other problems that they have raised here, are challenges that the department is facing as we try to transform our country.
The interventions that the Ministry has already made in these areas have sought to bridge the gap between the privileged and the underprivileged. We have every confidence that the Minister will rise to the occasion, as he has already proved to be a hands-on Minister in his work. The ANC confidently supports this budget. [Applause.]
Vote No 33 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, I move. [Applause.]
Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, I have to earn my living, so I have to speak, I cannot just move. We have just voted on the Budget for the year 2001, a serious occasion, although it has been a long and tedious one. It has been preceded by months and months of debate on the individual Votes, by three days of debate on the First Reading, by two days of debate on the President’s Vote, and now with one day being spent on the voting procedure.
It is unfortunate that in these debates and on this final concluding day members of the opposition, who insisted on having this debate, did not make sure that their leaders, particularly the leaders of the opposition like Mr Leon and Mr Martinus van Schalkwyk, were present for the voting on this Budget. We might regard budgets as boring and irrelevant, but they are what govern our country. I do think that it is a lack of respect for this Parliament that these leaders did not make themselves available, particularly as it was the opposition who forced us to have this vote.
With that, I would like to commend this budget to the House for approval. We look forward as Parliament to better engaging with this budget, than in the processes which we have previously engaged in in these last years.
The need for budget reform in this Parliament is urgent. As the ANC we have done an enormous amount of research, thinking through and discussing the kinds of reforms that we would want in this budget process in Parliament. We look forward to engaging with the other parties and the public at large so that we have a far more satisfactory, transparent and meaningful engagement on the budget. I thank you, Madam Speaker, and commend this Budget to the House. [Applause.]
Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I would suggest to the hon Ms Hogan that the real lack of respect for the Budget is that 30 minutes is the full amount allocated to the Second Reading, of which four minutes have been allocated to the Official Opposition.
The whole thrust of the Government’s policy on investment is that the next two or three years are critical years in our economic and political future. If we do not get the 6% growth - and we believe we can get it - if we do not get jobs and investments, then this should be borne in mind. If we think that we have a problem with housing, lack of health care, shortage of funds, lack of jobs, poverty and unemployment, imagine what it would look like in three or four years’ time. In three or four years’ time, the problem would be so massive that we may not be able to grapple with it. This is what the Minister of Trade and Industry said when he spoke in the National Assembly on 18 September 1996. I could not agree with him more. Unfortunately, his worst fears have become a reality.
Government often claims that most of our problems have also been experienced by other emerging markets. It is not that simple. The 60% fall in dollar terms of the South African share market over the past five years is more than double the Morgan Stanley emerging market index, a 27% fall, and places us among the big losers. If one looks at other indicators, South Africa again does not perform well. For example, the rand’s depreciation against the dollar over the past year was the third highest of the 25 more important emerging market economies. Only Indonesia and Turkey fared worse.
South Africa’s growth performance is amongst the lower third of these important emerging market economies and our reserves, valued in US dollars, are the lowest. The Government’s appalling performance in respect of privatisation is the most recent conspicuous failure of economic policy, highlighted by the debacle surrounding South African Airways. It is hard to imagine circumstances which could be more harmful to our privatisation programme and, more generally, to foreign direct investment than the circus that has surrounded the dispute over who is responsible for what in respect of Coleman Andrews’s remuneration and severance packages.
As with the arms scandal, the Government is once again giving every impression of attempting to cover up and withhold information from the public until it has had time to align all the stories of key participants. The differences of opinion, contradictions and disputes between the Minister for Public Enterprises, his predecessor, the Minister of Trade and Industry, Mr Saki Macozoma and Prof Louise Tager cannot and should not be treated as if they were a dispute in an ANC branch or regional committee.
The South African public is entitled to truthful, verified information from independent sources to be able to make a judgment for itself. The fact that the two Ministers for Public Enterprises and the former MD of Transnet are all ANC comrades, means that any version of events which they agree upon will lack credibility and will not sort out this embarrassing episode.
Neither the most ardent communist nor the most vocal socialist in the ANC tripartite alliance could do more damage to the prospect of success of privatisations in South Africa than this Minister for Public Enterprises and this Government. Political wrangling, bureaucratic delays and unreasonable conditionality have meant that we have derived few of the benefits we could have had from a purposeful and focused privatisation programme. In this year’s budget, R18 billion was expected from the proceeds of the sale of state assets. I will ask the Minister to tell us whether he still expects to receive that. Until the Government can get its act together so that we could have a real prospect of attracting investment, getting 6% growth and creating jobs for the unemployed, the DA will not lend credibility to an unsatisfactory economic performance by this Government. We shall be opposing the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill.
Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Speaker, the IFP has throughout this debate supported the 2001 Budget. We will again be supporting the Second Reading of this Appropriation Bill. The Minister has gone a long way in addressing the fiscal requirements of South Africa whilst creating equity and acceptance by the different departments in respect of Votes.
The Budget for 2001-02 is a well-constructed budget and it is reader friendly. The shortfall before borrowing is within the limits set by international standards, and the IMF in general has been very complimentary about the South African economic position and the handling of our fiscal situation. On the income side, the SA Revenue Service has done steady work in regard to the recovery of taxes. The IFP also applauds the Minister for announcing the strategic industrial project in terms of which the principle of tax holidays is now being addressed. We trust that large industrial projects will come to South Africa.
However, we in the IFP realise that we cannot expect foreigners to invest in South Africa while our own industrialists are sometimes disinvesting from this country. Something must be drastically wrong and, when asked, the majority of business people would give us as their main reasons crime, particularly violent crime, and corruption.
The Zimbabwean situation has further created negative perceptions that eventually a similar situation may occur in South Africa. We in the IFP do not share these sentiments but every effort should be made to rid South Africa of such negative perceptions. Sufficient economic growth remains our major obstacle. On the other hand, inflation in South Africa is under control.
In the past four months, the foreign currency rate of the rand in terms of the euro and the basket of other currencies is relatively stable. The phenomenon of the US dollar is another debate and I will not dwell on it, although I wish to engage the hon Andrew about this particular aspect.
We congratulate the Minister on the success of inflation targeting, and I also believe that the director-general deserves our compliments. Hopefully newspaper speculation that her contract will be renewed for a further three years will prove correct. We thank the Minister. The IFP will support the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill.
Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Minister and hon members, this Bill must be seen in the light of a downturn in the manufacturing sector during the past year and a sharp decline in foreign and domestic direct investment. The rand has also weakened against the dollar and is currently at a record level of as much as R8,20. Low-income families are battling at the moment because they have to pay more for heating and transport due to the higher fuel costs.
On a slightly more positive note, consumer price inflation has declined. However, of concern is that the growth in the real domestic product slowed down to 2% for the first quarter of the year, substantially less than the projected figure of 3%. The labour force survey of the Reserve Bank states that unemployment in the formal sector increased because of the rationalisation of production processes and this has also resulted in additional unemployment.
The question remains: Is the Government taking adequate steps to create an environment to foster sustained economic growth? The SA Revenue Service has made commendable progress regarding the reduction in the tax gap, implementing the Sikaya project, and the new proposed e-filing of tax returns will also put South Africa in the same category as Singapore, Canada and Britain. It is hoped that the corporate tax return via the Internet will produce more efficient processing of tax returns.
Our present tax system needs to be thoroughly reviewed. Taxes on savings and retirement funds are problematic. It is noted that company taxes have been reduced. However, it must be mentioned that Britain has slashed capital gains tax by 10%. Progressively, South Africa’s high tax burden will be further increased when capital gains tax is implemented in October.
The South African economy in particular, and the entire SADC region in general, is currently threatened. According to the World Economic Forum, this region is reported to have three quarters of the world’s cases of HIV/Aids. The question remains whether Government has taken the necessary proactive steps for integrated and co-ordinated regional partnership across public- private sectors in the case of health care, to avert the potential of a devastating disaster to our entire social fabric, and our economy in particular.
South Africa is also losing about 2 000 highly skilled South Africans per month. The levels of corruption, crime and violence in our society are a cause for grave concern. It is estimated that 200 police officers are murdered annually.
The DP and the New NP will not support this Bill.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, hon members, approximately three months ago, on 15 March 2001, I put the views of the UDM on the Budget in this House, and I will therefore not repeat them today.
Let me make this remark: The single biggest challenge facing us today in South Africa is to alleviate poverty, viz to close the gap between the rich and the poor - between the haves and the have-nots. We need a political strategy that will, firstly, give the poor access to formal property; secondly, bring the benefits of capital, such as access to capital, to the poor; and thirdly, formalise the assets of the poor.
It is a fact that the majority of our population do not have title deeds on land, especially in the rural areas and the townships. Some commentators estimate that this figure may be as high as 80% of our population. Under the land tenure system no security is available. We must change this state of affairs in South Africa with the sense of urgency that it deserves.
Let me give an example: The simple fact that a developer holds title deed to land provides him or her with security to build a house. He or she can then sell that house, and a new family can move into that house, probably borrowing most of the money for the price of the house from a bank. Central to this issue is the establishment of the concept of private property ownership amongst the majority of our people. We dare not fail in this regard. National budgets will, in future, have to support initiatives to unlock billions of rands of debt capital in our society.
The UDM supports the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill. [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, the ACDP supports the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill. But this does not mean that we do so uncritically. If there is one Ministry that is performing better than others, it is the Ministry of Finance. Confidence in South Africa’s economy has steadily improved over the past month and, as a result, the Reserve Bank has been able to reach its inflation target projections.
The past month has been especially good to home owners, as the cut in the repo rate led banks to reduce the rate of home loans. Government spending over the past years has shown consistent discipline, adding much-needed revenue to Government as well as reducing the debt deficit before borrowing, resulting in our economy being on track for weathering the storm of foreign market fluctuation.
So, we have been critical as far as the Votes are concerned, but we must give credit where we know credit due. Therefore, we support the Appropriation Bill.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, it has been an ordeal to sit in this House this whole morning. However, it is quite pleasant to notice that of the 33 Votes only 14 were put to the vote, which shows that the Minister and his department did quite well in sharing the money among the departments. Therefore, we commend the Minister and the officials of his department, and only hope that this money will be used to advance the cause of the people in this country.
The UCDP supports the Second Reading of the Bill.
Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, the Budget and allocation of funds which the Bill has prescribed visibly assist the Government with both the transformatory process as well as the advancement of the state.
The MF compliments the Minister of Finance on the true application adopted to ascertain the Bill, as well as for the appropriate allocation of funds to various sectors and subjects concerned. The MF is especially satisfied with the 58% of the consolidated national and provincial non-interest allocation which goes towards social services. An educated and healthy nation makes for a stronger nation. The Bill adequately assists this.
The varying budgets which the Bill has allocated are supported by the MF. Further funds allocated to the criminal justice sector have also been widely accepted. Each sector is connected in its own way. Thus, the advancement of equity advocated in one sector will have a positive impact on the other.
The increase in the availability of education and skills training will increase possibilities for employment which, in turn, will also be assisted by foreign and domestic investment. The increase in the above will also lead to a reduction in criminal offences, not to mention other sectors that will also benefit. The Bill adequately makes available a suitable budget.
The MF supports the Appropriation Bill. [Applause.]
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, the hon the Minister started this debate by
saying: Madam Speaker, I move.'' The Minister must be careful, because
tomorrow we are going to read in the newspapers:Trevor Manuel to leave
South Africa - and the rand drops again.’’ [Laughter.]
Die AEB het gestem vir Begrotingspos No 7: Nasionale Tesourie, en daarmee ons vertroue in die Minister self uitgespreek. Tydens die begrotingsdebat het ons ‘n aantal punte van kritiek teen die Begroting gehad, veral dat dit nie genoeg groei gaan stimuleer nie, omdat maatskappybelasting nie verander is nie, ook nie top marginale koerse van belasting nie. Ons het ook baie positiewe kommentaar oor die Begroting gehad. Die Begroting is egter net die besigheidsplan op papier. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The AEB voted in favour of Vote No 7: National Treasury, and in doing so we expressed our confidence in the Minister himself. During the debate on the Vote we had a number of points of criticism against the Budget, especially that it will not stimulate enough growth because company tax was not reduced, nor were top marginal tax rates. We also had many positive comments on the Budget. The Budget is only a business plan on paper, however.]
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Dit lê in die uitvoering daarvan. Aangesien daar nog so baie leemtes is, veral met betrekking tot die basiese saak van die veiligheid van ons mense en buitelandse beleggingsvertroue, kan die AEB nie die wetsontwerp as sulks steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[It lies in its implementation. Because there are still so many deficiencies, especially with regard to the basic issue of the safety of our people and foreign investor confidence, the AEB cannot support the Bill as such.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, let me express appreciation to all those members who spoke today, be it on points of order, or on issues of division. I wish to thank them very much.
The tragedy about a day like today is that highlighted by the hon Hogan, namely that Parliament is so badly in need of a programme of budget reform. Sadly, she has made this point with great respect.
The kind of thing that we saw today brings out the worst silliness of the House, and I think it diminishes the role and standing of the gathering, such as we are, because the great changes that are taking place are actually lost under the whip, and so people behave in a silly fashion for the sake of doing so, and not in order to advance critical points of change or to deepen democracy. We have seen that in the wrap-up of the debate just a few minutes ago, when some of the opposition members dusted off those ghastly speeches that they had delivered previously and truncated them to the worst of what they had said before. That does not help anything.
But the lost cause, I think, is the hon Andrew. I have tried to find out from what disease he could be suffering from. I think it is ``hedonophobia’’, that is a fear of pleasure. [Laughter.] Nothing else can cause somebody to find the dark side of the moon about everything in the way that he does. I think it is an illness that needs to be treated. I think the DP is poorly served by this fear of good news that we are witnessing and living through in this country. There is nothing else I can say about this because, one-on-one, I know he does not behave like that. [Laughter.]
I am afraid that it is contagious and the hon Rabie needs to be advised because hy is ‘n bietjie aangesteek deur die dinge [he was rather affected by these issues]. So, I would plead with Pierre to forget that. I think that at the end of a debate like this, which started on 21 February and has been through all the motions, it is great to be able to say today that this Parliament says that the transformation agenda rolls on and rolls on very strongly. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 250: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Doidge, G Q M; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Feinstein, A J; Fihla, N B; Fraser- Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gininda, M S; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Madasa, Z L; Madlala- Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makwetla, S P; Malebane, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Mangena, M A; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maphoto, L I; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Middleton, N S; Mlambo- Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, E P; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokaba, P R; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morwamoche, K W; Mothiba, L C; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, B S; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, E G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E C; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabangu, S; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Thabethe, E; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshwete, S V; Twala, N M; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 61: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland, N J; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gaum, A H; Geldenhuys, B L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; McIntosh, G B D; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Olckers, M E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schoeman, R S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Singh, A; Smit, H A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
(First Reading debate)
Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, this Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is a collection of amendments to a number of tax-related Acts, including the Income Tax Act, the Customs and Excise Act, and the Value-Added Tax Act. As such, it is an omnibus Bill that brings together a number of important amendments to several pieces of tax legislation. Some of the more important amendments relate to customs and excise and the way in which improvements to the functioning of these other activities of this unit will be implemented through this Bill. For instance, there are going to be stricter controls in respect of the movement of goods within and through South Africa and better reporting requirements for cargo on importation and exportation. In addition there will be better control over registration and licensing for persons doing customs business.
With regard to the Income Tax Act, we are all aware of the changes in reporting with this budget and the relief for individuals, in particular, which this budget has brought. Briefly, R8,3 billion this year will go back to individual taxpayers in terms of tax relief. One might point out that since 1995, R33,6 billion has been given back to individual taxpayers, with more than 50% of the relief this year going to taxpayers with incomes of less than R80 000 per annum.
The threshold for which individual taxpayers have to register as provisional taxpayers has also been raised from R1 000 to R2 000. Moreover the threshold for interest, dividend, rental and remuneration income at which people have to register as provisional taxpayers, for those over the age of 65, has also been increased from R60 000 to R80 000.
There have also been the wellknown increases in primary rebates. Small business corporations also benefit. As members will recall, a split tax rate for small, medium and micro enterprises was introduced the previous year. This will still remain. This year an additional benefit has been granted for small business corporations and the write-off for the full cost of manufacturing plant and equipment in the year they are brought into use will be allowed, as opposed to the five-year write off for other taxpayers.
Critical to the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is the investment incentive for strategic projects. I am not going to provide the details of this incentive. My colleague Mrs Rhoda Joemat will speak about this. Suffice it to say that an additional 50% or 100% initial investment allowance on industrial assets used in a qualifying strategic industrial project, will be allowed. This allowance will be deducted against the income of the industrialist.
The total budgeted amount for this relief is R3 billion over a four-year period. It is an experiment on a small scale but, nevertheless, an important experiment. This will be accompanied, very importantly, by the wage incentive later on this year, which will provide incentives for labour- intensive investment in this country.
I just want to digress for a moment. In the media there has been a great play on a company which decided not to invest in South Africa but rather moved to Namibia. One of the reasons given in the media was that this company became frustrated at the slow pace of the investment incentives.
Apart from the fact that South Africa was unable to compete with a dispensation that allowed a company a 20-year taxfree dispensation, which is clearly unsustainable in the long term, it is to me a little puzzling that this was put forward as a reason for Ramatex not investing. Because, going back to the draft programme, the Minister announced that these investment schedules would be ready by the end of March.
Parliament, in its programme, said that this would come before hearings on 5 June and, in fact, they came only one week later on 12 June. Parliament said that we would have a formal consideration of these tax incentives on 22 June and, in fact, we adopted it on 25 June. A matter of two to three days difference hardly warrants the kind of impression being put across, that delays in this Bill meant that a major investor had to move to another country, and it is a little puzzling why it has been put across this way.
However, what is very clear is that we need to co-ordinate our tax incentives on a regional basis. It is simply not good for the region to have differing tax dispensations, which means that we are all in competition with one another, and finally we land in a situation where all of it becomes unfeasible and economically disastrous.
I want to make mention also of one intervention which the committee made in relation to the cosmetics industry. As members know, there are changes being made to ad valorem tax and the way it is being imposed. For reasons which are very technical, and which I will not go into now, the cosmetics industry was itself particularly hard hit by these changes. They appealed to us in Parliament and pointed out that they were being put at a specific competitive disadvantage as importers of cosmetics.
We noted, too, that cosmetics are classified as luxury goods and therefore they qualify for ad valorem tax. It seems to me that the definition of luxury goods needs to be redefined when one has normal hair shampoo being regarded as a luxury. [Interjections.] Yes if one has no hair it is not a luxury, if one has hair it is a great luxury. So, an interim arrangement has been made with the cosmetics industry. But I must commend them, because the industry in return has promised not to retrench any workers in this interim period so that, I think, the workers in these companies’ employ have been insured in the interim.
There are a number of other issues in this Bill which my colleague will speak about. I want to thank the Ministry and the SA Revenue Service once again for the extraordinarily professional way in which they have dealt with this Bill. There were times when they were meeting at night with people who came before our committee. They were arguing through and debating the points with people in the evenings, on weekends as well, and their readiness to engage with outside people who come in good faith to our committee to make submissions is highly commendable. Once again, I would like to thank them for their flexible and purposeful approach. We look forward to the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill that will come through to us later on this year. [Applause.]
Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I would like to endorse the comments made by the hon Ms Hogan in respect of this Bill.
The DA has frequently argued that Government policy should be judged on its impact on fixed investment, economic growth and job creation. In commenting on this Bill, I would like to focus on this question. Firstly, does it have any impact on disposable income and savings? The Bill makes provision for reductions in personal income tax, as announced in the Minister’s Budget Speech in February. That is a positive move.
It also increases the amount of interest and foreign dividends that can be received taxfree by individuals. This is welcomed, although we believe that it does not go nearly far enough, given our requirement for much higher levels of domestic saving.
We recently welcomed the 1% drop in the repo rate announced by the Reserve Bank. However, one should not ignore the fact that this will result in reduced incomes for people who rely heavily on interest income on their savings. In this regard I would appeal to the hon the Minister of Finance to increase substantially the taxfree amount available to persons over the age of 65 years.
Secondly, what impact will this Bill have on investment? In general, the DA believes that it is better to lower tax rates across the board than to give special preference to certain identified categories. However, we recognise that many countries with whom we compete for investment offer tax incentives which appeal to some investors.
To assist small business and to encourage investment, the Bill permits the full cost of any investment made by a small business corporation in manufacturing assets to be allowed as a deduction in the year of assessment during which the asset was brought into use for the first time. This should help both the profitability and the cash flows of small businesses and is appropriate in our circumstances. The most important element in this Bill is the new strategic investment programme which permits a write-off of 100% or 50% in the first year, in addition to the normal depreciation provisions for approved investments in excess of R50 million. The proposals contain both negatives and positives. The negatives include the following. The Minister of Trade and Industry, after consultation with an adjudication committee, has to determine whether a particular investment qualifies or not. In doing so, he has to determine whether the project is likely to have long-term commercial viability. This is often not easy, even for specialists in a particular industry. So it is a tall order to expect the Minister to get it right every time. As an economics professor said to the portfolio committee ``Governments are not good at picking winners’’.
Then the Bill allows a project to qualify if it does not displace more than 40% of other business activities in the same sector. While this is only one of the factors taken into account, it is nevertheless very worrying that some businesses may be bankrupted because of tax incentives given to new investors. The tax holiday and incentive schemes have to date not been very successful in South Africa. Only time will tell whether this scheme is going to be an exception.
Finally, the scheme will put a considerable additional burden on the Department of Trade and Industry, as the various projects will have to be investigated, evaluated and monitored for at least six years to ensure that the promises made are kept. There are, however, a number of factors in favour of a scheme such as the one which is being proposed. South Africa desperately needs direct investment, both domestic and foreign, and therefore we need to act boldly. Investments have to make profits before they benefit from this scheme, so projects cannot rely on this programme to bolster them if they are inherently unprofitable.
There will be regular reporting and a high degree of transparency, which will enable Parliament, the private sector and the public at large to assess the quality of the decisions being made and the benefits derived. Finally, there is a cap on the amount of benefits available in respect of each project and the total amount available to qualify during the life of this programme.
The hon the Minister, I think, will concede that if the Democratic Alliance had proposed such a scheme, he would have said he would not be prepared to take part in a race to the bottom. Nevertheless, we think this scheme deserves support. This programme applies to both domestic and foreign investment, but I am hopeful that it may have a substantial impact on domestic investment to start with. The incentives may be what is needed to push local businesspeople into making investments now rather than waiting.
If we can get our domestic investors to take the lead, and do so sooner rather than later, our chances of attracting additional foreign investment and lifting our economic growth rate to 6% or more will be greatly enhanced. This is a prize not to be taken lightly. The Democratic Alliance, despite the reservations expressed, will support this programme in the hope that it will turn out to be one of the missing ingredients which South Africa has been searching for. The Democratic Alliance will support the Bill.
Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Speaker, the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is wide- ranging and several key aspects are being dealt with. The majority of these amendments deal with logical improvements and consequential amendments. Previously there was differentiation between salaried personnel, who had to pay PAYE, and directors, to whom exemption had been granted. In future, PAYE will now also be deducted from directors of companies. This introduces a much more fair situation.
The various ratings of ad valorem duties made it very difficult to administer. Henceforth, ad valorem duties will be based on the invoice price and the rates will be standardised between 5% and 8%, reducing the maximum ratings substantially, of course, with a loss to the fiscus, but on the other hand the administration will be much less.
Much more dramatic with regard to this legislation is the introduction of major incentives for strategic investments called SIPs. For the first time, South Africa will now be able to grant tax exemption or so-called tax holidays for strategic investment projects to a maximum of R600 million per year, and for other approved industrial projects to a maximum of R300 million. Industrial or manufacturing projects from as low as R50 million can qualify for these tax exemptions.
A total of R3 billion of potential income over the next four years could be sacrificed by the state. On the other hand, the possible future projects would probably never have materialised without these incentives, and the state would not have seen much of this potential R3 billion anyway.
Die skema is gerig op projekte van meer as R50 miljoen, en maak voorsiening vir ‘n bykomende belastingaftrekking van 100% of 50% van die waarde van die projek, afhangende van die kwalifikasiepunte wat behaal word. Dit kan beteken dat tussen R10 miljard en R20 miljard se nuwe investering bevorder kan word of na Suid-Afrika gelok kan word, afhangende van die projekte en of hulle vir die aftrekking van 100% of dié van 50% kwalifiseer.
Die sakesektor sou eerder regstreekse kontantvoordele wou sien. Hulle wys daarop dat aftrekkings vir belastingdoeleindes in die beginjare van ‘n projek min beteken omdat feitlik alle nuwe projekte eers ná ‘n paar jaar ‘n wins begin toon. Beleggingsaansporings bly maar ‘n turksvy en het ook sy dorings.
Sabek en Cosatu het uitgewys dat dit die staatskas kan raak, dat dit administrasiekoste en rompslomp kan meebring en dat dit sommige partye bó ander kan bevoordeel. Dit kan ook meganisasie en rasionalisering meebring wat kan lei tot die vermindering van personeel en die bedreiging van bedrywighede in die algemeen. Die meeste van hierdie besware is egter in persoonlike onderhoude met Sabek en Cosatu ondervang.
As ‘n ontwikkelende land het Suid-Afrika investering in ‘n mededingende wêreld dringend nodig. Suid-Afrika kan ook nie agterbly met minderwaardige aansporings nie wanneer ons met die res van die wêreld meeding. Ons moet egter ook ander faktore onder oë neem, byvoorbeeld misdaad, infrastruktuur, die arbeidsbedeling, stabiliteit en voorspelbaarheid op alle terreine, terwyl ons moontlike burokratiese rompslomp moet probeer uitsluit. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The scheme is aimed at projects exceeding R50 million and makes provision for an additional tax deduction of 100% or 50% of the value of the project, depending on the qualification points attained. This means that new investments in the amount of between R10 billion and R20 billion could be promoted or attracted to South Africa, depending on the projects and whether they qualify for the deduction of 100% or that of 50%.
The business sector would have preferred to see direct cash benefits. They point out that deductions for tax purposes in the initial years of a project mean little because virtually all new projects only begin to show a profit after a few years. Investment incentives remain a thorny issue.
Sacob and Cosatu have pointed out that this can affect the Treasury, that the administration costs and red tape could mean that some parties are favoured above others. It could also lead to mechanisation and rationalisation, which can lead to the reduction of staff and a threat to activities in general. However, most of these objections were resolved in personal discussions with Sacob and Cosatu.
As a developing country, South Africa urgently needs investment in a competitive world. South Africa can also not lag behind with inferior incentives when we are competing with the rest of the world. However, we must also consider other factors, for example crime, infrastructure, the labour dispensation, stability and predictability in all areas, while we must attempt to exclude possible bureaucratic red tape.]
It was indeed a great disappointment when Ramatex announced that their potential industrial projects for the Coega industrial zone at Bisho Airport have now been shifted to Walvis Bay in Namibia. As we know, Walvis Bay is a taxfree port. It is going to be a taxfree zone, similar to Mauritius and what is being envisaged for Maputo. Our neighbours are all going for the concept of these free ports.
Hopefully, this legislation, although belated, may assist to change their minds, and hopefully Ramatex could reconsider their decision and come back to South Africa. But when we are looking at South Africa in general and the Coega development zone, the question still remains whether the Richards Bay
- Empangeni area, which has been targeted and mentioned as a possibility, could definitely become an industrial zone. Should this be the case, then organisations like Ramatex do not necessarily have to compete with Coega and Walvis Bay, but they can indeed compete within South Africa with such industrial zones.
It is common knowledge that the cost at these particular places could be much more lucrative than at other places. Particularly as far as the free ports situation is concerned, an area like Richards Bay could offer this country one of its best industrial zones, which can indeed attract those necessary industrial projects from abroad and from South Africa itself.
Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, and hon members, the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is a very complex piece of tax legislation, which will result in a number of changes to the existing tax legislation. This Bill reflects a number of concerns raised during hearings with the Treasury and the SA Revenue Service.
Not all the role-players concerned will be satisfied. A problem regarding the change in the system of calculating ad valorem duties on cosmetic products was raised due to the fact that the original proposal could have had a negative effect on the domestic cosmetics industry, which could have resulted in significant job losses. A compromise was reached, and changes will be made to avert job losses in this industry. I think this is very commendable and a very positive outcome of our hearings.
The Revenue Laws Amendment Bill contains a wide range of amendments that relate to various tax changes announced in the Budget Speech of the hon the Minister of Finance. A significant amendment in this Bill is that directors of private companies will be required to pay PAYE rather than provisional tax. The reason furnished is that in the past directors of private companies had an unfair advantage if compared with the salary earners in the sense that they were able to delay their tax payments for extensive periods. This change does create some problems, but it must be mentioned that there is a provision for an individual to apply for suitable directives from Sars to reduce or exempt the amount of PAYE if his or her company experiences a downturn in turnover and earnings.
A positive aspect of this Bill is that it includes fuel levy concessions regarding diesel fuel for the agriculture industry, which, at present, is competing on the global market. On the global market we find that some of our EU trade partners are subsidising their agriculture products, and I must say that the playing field is not level in this regard.
The Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is a broad-based tax incentive programme, which, we agree, will be costly to administer, but we think that the benefits will outweigh the disadvantages of this particular Bill. A piece of legislation of this kind grants incentives to prospective investors, and it is part and parcel of a strategy employed by emerging markets to encourage prospective investors to invest in their particular country.
Sacob, in its presentation to the Portfolio Committee on Finance, made a very valid point that this system has the potential to distort the tax system initially. But we must point out that if one conducts business on the free market, change is inevitable. There is always a fair degree of change, and it must be channelled and structured in a proper manner. We agree that the positive aspects of this particular Bill, and especially when it comes to the depreciation of allowances for strategic industries, are another noteworthy characteristic of this Bill.
What is very important here is that the definition of strategic industries refers to job-creating industries. Again, with our present untenably high level of unemployment, we feel that this particular Bill will also help to foster business confidence in our particular country.
Something else which is very important here are the figures which were mentioned. They varied from R50 to R60 million. They were projects to qualify for new investments and these also had tax rebates that they qualified for.
Another important definition that was furnished in this Bill, and we feel it can be refined in future, was a definition that is related to small and medium enterprise development tax incentive programmes. Again, this is a very positive development, and we feel and think that this will, again, attract global investment which is sorely needed in our country.
I think, though, that we should not be too optimistic. The success of this Bill will also depend upon the global investment climate. We feel that if the whole world experiences a downturn in the economy, the chances of success of this Bill will be fairly limited. To conclude, the new NP and the DA support this Bill.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker and hon members, in our opinion the two most important aspects of this Bill relate to small business development and the stimulation of strategic industrial projects. Firstly, we welcome the further acknowledgement of the important role that small, medium and micro enterprises play in economic development and employment creation. This promotes our policy of enterprise development, especially in the manufacturing sector. We support the proposal to write off the full cost of a manufacturing plant and equipment in the first year that it is brought into use, as opposed to the five-year write-off period for other taxpayers. Secondly, we welcome the tax incentives for strategic industrial projects, despite the fact that there may be more effective instruments available to promote enterprise development.
The fact of the matter is that we should now support initiatives which aim to promote competitiveness, and contribute to employment creation. For obvious reasons, the tourism sector is excluded from tax incentives aimed at promoting investments in industrial assets. We will, however, have to think about innovative ideas and methods to unlock the potential of tourism in South Africa on a massive scale.
Let us work together and ensure that the implementation of section 12G of this Bill, namely the strategic investment programme, is successful. We as members of Parliament can monitor it and make sure that the system is not abused. Provision is made for the Minister of Trade and Industry to report his decision regarding the incentives to Parliament. And, similarly, progress reports on projects receiving the tax incentives must be submitted.
The ultimate test of success will be whether these tax proposals will create jobs and stimulate gross geographic products. The UDM supports the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill.
Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, in terms of the increase in disposable income, the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill provides a welcome tax relief for lower and middle-income earners. The Minister of Finance announced in his Budget Speech in February that relief of about R8,3 billion would benefit taxpayers. The overall restructuring of the tax brackets for persons of 65 years and older further provides stability of additional income for those in their twilight years.
Tax relief is always a great boost for the consumer confidence index. But we are quite sure that most citizens will forfeit this tax rebate if they know that the state will effectively provide safe, secure and affordable services to the people of this land. The state has succeeded admirably in showing that it can efficiently apply itself to fiscal discipline. Foreign direct investment is beginning to show confidence in our economy. In looking at this Bill, the Government is trying to encourage greater investment incentives to attract more business to this land. Whether the Bill will secure this objective against tax-based incentives is debatable, but we must welcome all attempts by Government to promote tax relief.
Incentives as we seem to understand in the context of the Bill, are more closely linked to economic growth than to the influence they will have on creating employment. Investment will invariably lead to employment opportunities, but may not necessarily lead to a rise in the national level of competitive skills of South Africans.
The ACDP believes that incentives for investment should encourage doubling the skills of our population, within set timeframes, to boost the competency levels of our country. In other words, where the state is trying to create a solid foundation for more efficient fiscal management and a positive investment climate, it must also do so in the context of sound social policies. In conclusion, the ACDP supports this Bill. [Time expired.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, hierdie wetsontwerp het hoofsaaklik te doen met die inwerkingstelling van die tegniese aspekte van wat in ander sake besluit is. Dit lyk vir ons in orde, en die Minister van Handel en Nywerheid het verlede Vrydag ‘n goeie verduideliking gegee daarvan. Ek gaan nie langer agb lede se tyd mors nie. Die AEB steun hierdie wetsontwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, this Bill mainly deals with the implementation of the technical aspects of what has already been decided in other cases. We get the impression that it is in order, and the Minister of Trade and Industry presented a good explanation of this last Friday. I will not waste any more of hon members’ time. The AEB supports this Bill.]
Mrs R R JOEMAT: Chairperson and hon members, the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is technical and definitely not bedtime reading material. I am disappointing the hon member Goniwe because he asked us to make our debate more spicy. It is very difficult with a technical Bill. This Bill contains proposals that were announced on Budget day and addresses a number of tax measures.
When one hears the word ``tax’’ one immediately gets a nauseous feeling. As people are preparing their returns for the tax year ending 2001, it is important to listen to the new tax proposals tabled here today, especially if they are directors of private companies.
By nature, nobody wants to pay more than he or she should. Company members and the public, and members of this Parliament, are consulting their tax consultants, and that is why tax consultants are having a booming period this time of the year. The implementation of these amendments in the Bill before us will be driven by Sars. Sars is committed to the principles of openness, integrity and accountability in its dealings with all stakeholders.
Measuring up to this vision, the Portfolio Committee on Finance, with Sars and the National Treasury, listened to various stakeholders and representatives of organisations which will be affected by these amendments. Although this Bill implements a number of tax measures that were announced on Budget Day, I am only going to focus on two of the significant ones, concerning directors of private companies.
The provisions of the Fourth Schedule of the Income Tax Act are amended under clause 22 of the Bill, to bring directors of private companies within the employees tax system by imposing PAYE on directors’ remuneration. At present, directors of private companies are not subject to monthly PAYE deductions from their salaries and other remunerations. In the past, this has been justified because of practical problems. The concession is that directors of private companies need only settle their tax bill on their salaries when they make their provisional payments, and finally on assessment. This gives company directors a substantial cash-flow advantage over ordinary employees who have to pay PAYE on their weekly or monthly income. In addition, public companies have devised structures to permit their directors to take advantage of this cash-flow advantage.
In order to create equity between directors and ordinary workers, the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill proposes that the exemption from the payment of PAYE that directors of private companies enjoy be withdrawn. These private companies should pay tax on behalf of directors, based on the directors’ remuneration for the previous year of assessment in the form of a minimum amount.
Certain institutions, in their submissions during hearings, raised concerns about this proposal. One concern was that system changes would be required by companies to administer the payment of PAYE on amounts paid to directors. Many private companies that do not currently pay PAYE will still have to register. Sars made provision for this and the effective date will only be 1 March 2002. This provides companies with sufficient time to introduce changes to their systems and register employees for PAYE purposes. I quote from a book by Prof Van Mises called Human Action:
The idea of social justice implied by the ability-to-pay principle is that of perfect financial equality of all citizens.
Financial equality does not exist in any country in the world, but in South Africa it is also attached to race. It is therefore important to have these amendments that will at least strive towards equity.
I will now deal with strategic industrial incentives, which is one of the major changes in this Bill. The objective of this section is to encourage investment in strategic industrial projects located within the Republic by granting an additional industrial investment allowance in respect of industrial assets used for such projects. Industrial projects will only be considered strategic if they significantly increase economic growth and employment.
At the International Conference on Private Enterprises held in June 2000, attended by 149 women, Ambassador Charlene Barshefsky said, and I quote:
Part of the responsibility for creating more open markets lies with developing country’s governments. Experience shows that the most open economies grow faster, create new and innovative businesses most efficiently, and reduce poverty most effectively.
It is in this light that these industrial incentives are proposed to invite and attract developers to South Africa. An adjudication committee will evaluate all applications and ensure that these projects qualify for the incentives.
These incentives are aimed at projects exceeding R50 million in industrial assets and they will qualify for up to 100% of the cost of any industrial asset used, up to R600 million per project. This obviously represents a significant revenue loss and it is essential that it be monitored closely to ensure that we get value for money and that these projects lead to gains which would not have been realised in the absence of these incentives.
The ANC supports this Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the Bill is aimed at instituting an improved administrative regulatory system on certain revenue duties, definitions and liabilities. Thus regulation provisions and elaborated definitions provided for on issues concerning the Bill, allow for a truer administrative system, which will serve to avoid mutative revenue duties, allowing for sufficiency and co-ordination. Though the Bill aims at simplifying such revenue duties, it makes no allowance for a lack in procedure, and in certain cases there is greater emphasis on legal administration.
The MF acknowledges the focus this Bill has placed on improved administration, compliance, regulations and procedures concerning issues of tax, as well as matters concerning customs and excise, noting the positive impact this will have. The first is that it will allow for a better internal mechanism of revenue, and the co-ordination of the latter will make available a more flexible and attractive trade centre.
The MF also takes note of positive amendments in the Bill and the suggestions regarding VAT. Here the MF specially applauds the suggested increased emphasis on nutritional value with regard to maize and milk, which will support section 27(1)(b) of the Constitution, which states that everyone has the right to have access to sufficient food and water. This will allow for greater access to health.
The Bill thus suggests and makes available improved infrastructure for revenue duties, skills, abilities and delivery. The MF views the Government’s efforts in this Bill as positive, resting assured that these measures will inculcate a more compliant and effective plan for revenue.
The MF supports the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson and hon members, I think the Portfolio Committee on Finance deserves a hearty round of applause for the way in which they addressed this piece of legislation. [Applause.]
It is a complex piece of legislation and they were exceedingly thorough in the way in which they went about it. It is fitting that we should say a big thank you to all the members of that committee, including Ken of cause, for they way they addressed this. It is important that we deal with this. One of the joys of this committee is that a number of members who had previously shied away from the detail of tax policy are now participating very actively. I think this says something about the processes taking place in committees.
It is important that this happens because tax policy is so complex. Firstly, in dealing with the issues of detail, we accept that, once passed here, the tax policy will be implemented. The one notable exception is that the courts, on a daily basis, take decisions that impact on tax policy going forward. But, once Parliament has passed the legislation, nobody but nobody has any discretion about whether or not to implement the changes in tax law.
I want to assure members of this House that there are no political dictates applied in respect of implementation. In fact, the operational area of tax law is very far from the Ministry. All we need to know is whether the Commissioner and his team at Sars are implementing the tax as Parliament had intended. So the process of getting to this point is so exceedingly important, and it is for that reason that we cherish the work of the Portfolio Committee on Finance.
Issues that I would like to pick up on are the following. Clearly we need to maximise the revenue yield in terms of the strategic choices exercised by Parliament, as indicated in the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill here. But we also, in this context, need to develop a perspective. Some members have spoken about the issue of Ramatex, which we do not know about. I have seen all manner of journalists speaking on behalf of the company, but I have not seen the company speaking on its own behalf. The hon Andrew is correct in one respect. We have to guard against the race to the bottom. What we need to understand in this chase for the Holy Grail of foreign direct investment is that sometimes we tilt our policies into an environment where people will continually play us off against our neighbours. If one analysed the detail of development all over South-East Asia, a number of entry levels - collieries and textiles are some of the entry-level kinds of industries - have been marked by footloose investment decisions. In fact, the history of this country is such that if one goes to any of the former Bantustan areas, one will find that some factories are now standing empty because investors will work the incentives as long as they can and the day the incentives dry up they leave, and there is even greater destitution in some of those areas.
So, we have to play those off and deal in the real world and take decisions, but understand at the same time that there will be those who are footloose and who will try to play countries off against one another other. We are going to win some and we are going to lose some. That is the reality of the world that we are operating in. It is very important that hon members are alive to these kinds of issues. But what is more important at the end of the day is that we can come back and that Parliament can examine whether we hold together what appears to be a strategic coherence in the way in which decisions have been made. So, the detail of measurement and reporting to Parliament becomes important, not just for reasons of accountability but also for reasons of evaluation, to understand that we have not sacrificed the coherence of our tax policy.
With regard to the Cosmetics, Toiletries and Fragrances Association and the detail of the engagement there, it is good that we can report that there is an assurance that we will give ourselves twelve months within which no jobs will be lost. We will work through this.
But an issue that is exceedingly important for us is that where there had been reductions in ad valorem duty over the past few years, these have not been passed on to the consumer body. For the opposition now to play holier- than-thou and then say, ``if you change this further we will have to sacrifice jobs’’, is wrong. It is like the issue we debated here when we reduced value-added tax on paraffin so that the poor would benefit, and not so that shopkeepers would grow rich. It is exactly the same here. The association must ensure that benefits are passed on. But these issues will be canvassed very thoroughly by the committee in the course of its discussion and debate. I think that this course was reflected in the way in which portfolio committee members participated in this debate.
I would like to thank all the parties for their support for the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a first time.
Bill read a second time.
ESKOM CONVERSION BILL
(Conversion of Bill and of Report thereon)
Order disposed of without debate.
Report adopted and Bill agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
ADMINISTRATION OF ESTATES LAWS INTERIM RATIONALISATION BILL (Second Reading debate)
Order disposed of without debate.
Bill read a second time.
AGRICULTURAL RESEARCH AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Adv S P HOLOMISA: Mr Chairperson, the ANC supports the Agricultural Research Amendment Bill because it is aimed at accelerating the Government’s transformation processes within the Department of Agriculture. The amendments effected to the principal Act facilitate the appointment of suitable members of the Agricultural Research Council by the Minister. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!
Adv S P HOLOMISA: The Bill does away with the active involvement of the parliamentary committees in the selection and appointment of council members.
The debate around the principle of separation of powers between the legislature and the executive is still raging on. However, I want to commend the approach adopted by members of the portfolio committee, including in particular the hon Stuart Farrow of the DP. The approach adopted by the committee was that while we do not want to be involved in an obviously administrative exercise, such as the appointment of members of the Agricultural Research Council, we would make a provision which entrenches our monitoring and oversight role as members of Parliament. Hence the provisions to the effect that the Minister will be required to invite the relevant parliamentary committee to nominate persons for consideration for appointment, and that within 30 days of making such appointment she reports to the parliamentary committees for consideration and information, and not for purposes of reversing such appointments.
We also agreed unanimously, as the portfolio committee, that we would not call on the Minister to give in the report a list of all the people who were nominated but not appointed. Our concern was that the Minister would appoint only persons whose qualifications met the criteria laid down in the Act. On a personal level, I know that the hon Andries Botha was of the view that we should go further than we agreed on. He wanted us to provide for the Minister’s report to include a list of the names of all those persons who had been nominated but not appointed. We rejected the suggestion unanimously as being unnecessarily prescriptive and superfluous. The hon Dr A I van Niekerk was in principle opposed to the very idea of separation of powers in this particular regard. I am happy to say that at the end of our deliberations we all allowed reason to have the upper hand. The Bill was thus passed with complete unanimity to the extent that suggestions were made that only the chairperson should speak in this debate.
However, the DP said that, as a matter of principle, and as the opposition, they do not allow an opportunity to speak to pass them by. This debate, and even the division that may be called, is therefore not about points of disagreement on the contents of the Bill, but has been forced upon the House by political expediency. [Applause.]
Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, when we speak on this Agricultural Research Amendment Bill, I would like to say that I listened to what the chairperson said, that the unanimity which prevailed at that meeting was that we tried to get a solution which, in the end, we could not find, in terms of the fact that the involvement of Parliament was completely taken out of the Act.
I agree that the procedure in the 1994 Act, which fully involved the portfolio committee of Parliament and the select committee of the NCOP, and the selection and nomination of people to be appointed to the research council, was a long one. The application of this involvement of Parliament led to long delays before the final appointment by the Minister could be made.
We agree that this procedure should be reviewed. We accept the need to streamline the procedure but with the retention of some involvement of the committees of Parliament to lay down some procedures to follow without prescribing to the Minister - more of an informative interaction between the Minister and the committee. The reason is that it is important that the Agricultural Research Council should perform well and that it should be represented.
However, the way in which the Act is to be amended now reverts back to the other extreme where all procedures aimed at scrutinising nominated members to be appointed to the Agricultural Research Council and their appointment are in the hands of the Minister.
The original involvement of committees of Parliament in the appointment procedure is based on the Constitution, section 42(3), which reads thus:
The National Assembly is elected to represent the people and to ensure government by the people under the Constitution. It does this by choosing the President, by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues, by passing legislation and by scrutinising and overseeing executive action.
That is the point which we tried to bring into the committee. It is, to my mind, important to ensure that the Minister of the day should openly communicate the procedure and timescales involved in appointing new members. That is not only in line with what is being said in the Constitution, but will give clarity to the people outside who do not always have access to the information that we have.
The way in which Parliament communicates its wishes to Government is through legislation, which is passed in this Chamber. What is written in an Act, is an instruction that the Minister must adhere to. If a clear-cut instruction is present in the Act, and that is where the duties of the portfolio committee lie, it is easy for the ordinary MPs to scrutinise and oversee the executive action. This responsibility to scrutinise and oversee is not only the duty of the opposition parties but also of the non- executive members of the majority party.
However, the members of the majority party turned the request away, which was put by the opposition parties that an amendment be taken up to lay down a suitable procedure to involve Parliament in the nomination of members of the council in dealing with it in a nonprescriptive way. Taking away powers from Parliament, as is done by this amendment, and putting the powers which Parliament originally had completely in the hands of the Minister of the day, is a move away from the requirement of the Constitution and centralises decision-making powers. [Interjections.]
It further means that the involvement of Parliament to ensure that open and effective procedures are made is taken out of legislation. The duty of Parliament to oversee such executive action as prescribed in the Constitution is now made more difficult. [Interjections.]
Although we agree to the provisions of the prescriptions in the present Act, we do not agree with the removal of the involvement, in a nonprescriptive way, of the committees of Parliament. We are waiving our right to be involved as parliamentarians through a majority decision. We give all discretion to the Minister and whatever advice we should give could be accepted or rejected since there is no enforcement possible of a request by Parliament in the Act. We will object to this Bill.
Mr G B BHENGU: Chairperson, the IFP will support this amending Bill with no reservation at all. We believe that, as we passed the Constitution of the country that established the three levels of Government, namely the legislature, the executive and the judiciary, there is a separation of power. We believe that that must take place without contradiction.
We believe that the injunction of the Constitution must never be tampered with but must rather be treated with deference. The legislature has a mandate to promulgate laws and see to it that those laws are honoured. In this case, the legislature becomes the referee overseeing that the rules of the game are adhered to. Therefore, it cannot simultaneously be a player.
The executive, as represented by the Minister, has the mandate to execute what has been legislated by the House. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs to appoint the members of the Agricultural Research Council because such a council will have a duty to advise her, and not the portfolio committee.
Therefore, it is administratively unfair for the members of the portfolio committee to recommend names of candidates who should serve on the advisory council. We believe that all fair-minded people will not see this as an overextension of the executive power of the Minister. She should make an informed decision on who should advise her and regarding this, she will solicit the recommendation of her own selection committee. Such selection committee will also make an informed nomination because relevant stakeholders, including premiers of all provinces, will have made an input into the matter. The council shall be accountable to the Minister in terms of the executive procedure. Therefore, it cannot be appointed by another body to which it will not be accountable. The IFP supports the Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, there is too much noise in the House. Will you please lower your voices.
Mr S ABRAM: Mr Chairperson, I hope that I can increase my tone. I stand here in support of this Agricultural Research Amendment Bill. In doing so, I wish to point out that here is a body of highly specialised people who have to advise the Minister on certain aspects, in this case aspects concerned with research.
Now, we, as laypeople on the portfolio committee, as far as I am concerned, are in no position to really judge who these people should be. The task of the Minister is to govern. She is mandated to govern and she must do exactly that. When she needs advice, she must seek advice from people who are in a position to give her that advice. To put those people there should be by administrative action. In this particular case, a selection committee will do the necessary in order to recommend a list of people.
There is an interesting provision here in this Bill which, in terms of clause 1(b) of the Bill, amends clause 5 and provides that an unrehabilitated insolvent in respect of whom the trustee of the insolvent estate has not certified that the insolvent is a fit and proper person may serve as a member of the council. It creates the opportunity for the Minister to appoint a person who may be insolvent in view of financial considerations but who may not be insolvent in so far as his memory and his ability are concerned, and to put such a person to good use.
I feel that it is an interesting provision because I do not think the Agricultural Research Council, really, has anything to do with expenditure and the spending of Government’s money, but has to advise the Minister. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr A J BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, I am very glad that the hon Holomisa reported, quite rightly, that I, in principle, had objections to this amendment from the beginning. Dit is om die volgende rede. Een van die vele beloftes wat die ANC aan hierdie land gedoen het, was deursigtigheid in regering. Wat ons egter in die onlangse verlede ondervind het, is dat ons selfs verbied is om te praat van die Hoofsweep se gekose styl van voertuie, om nie eens te praat van die aanklag van rassisme en hoogverraad nie wat in reaksie op enige vorm van kritiek van ons kant af deur die agb President na ons geslinger word.
Dit is duidelik dat die ANC-leiers die President wil verklaar tot ‘n sacrosanctus, onaantasbare heilige, soos die Romeinse keisers van ouds. Met hierdie voorgestelde amendement wil die ANC presies dieselfde doen. Die amendement is veronderstel om ‘n stuk swak wetgewing wat in die verlede deurgedruk is te verbeter.
Ons van die DA was ten volle gemotiveerd om dié stuk swakheid, wat tot nege maande se rompslomp vereis het om selfs net een vakature in die Landbounavorsingsraad te vul, te help verbeter. Ons is egter hoegenaamd nie bereid om die ANC in staat te stel om in die geheim op te tree en die portefeuljekomitee se keel af te sny nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[This is for the following reasons. One of the many promises that the ANC made to this country was transparency in government. However, what we have experienced in the recent past is that we have even been forbidden to speak about the chosen style of vehicles of the Chief Whip, not to mention the charge of racism and high treason which is levelled at us by the hon the President in reaction to any form of criticism from our side.
It is clear that the ANC leaders want to declare the hon the President as a sacrosanctus, an untouchable saint, like the ancient Roman emperors. With this proposed amendment the ANC wants to do exactly the same. The amendment is supposed to improve bad legislation that was pushed through in the past.
We, the members of the DA, were fully motivated to help to improve this piece of bad legislation, which required red tape for a period of up to nine months to fill a single vacancy in the Agricultural Research Council. However, we are definitely not prepared to enable the ANC to act in secret and cut the portfolio committee’s throat.]
We were quite prepared to streamline the procedure and leave the final appointment of the Agricultural Research Council to the Minister. We were not satisfied with the proposed clause that merely required advertising in the media for nominations. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the Rules of the House specifically state that members may not conduct business in the House. If members look around, they will notice that they are breaking the rules very extensively. Could I please request all members to take their seats.
Mr A J BOTHA: Chairperson we accepted an improved clause which required advertising in the Gazette as well as in appropriate media. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members are still conducting business in the House.
Mr A J BOTHA: We do, however, reject virtually every other proposed amendment, firstly, because they are short sighted, unwise and inexcusable. Accordingly, the portfolio committee and this House are not entitled to know where the advertisements are placed and who is nominated.
Secondly, to justify this we were served with a choice piece of logic by the Deputy Minister. The hon the Deputy Minister told us that it would be too embarrassing for the unsuccessful nominees if we, the representatives of the people, knew about their embarrassment. This is trying to be even more politically correct than the hon Manie Schoeman, a truly formidable challenge.
Thirdly, the portfolio committee and the rest of this House may not know who does the selection nor whom they have shortlisted for the Minister to appoint. Most magnanimously, we are to be told who actually was finally appointed. Since the public at large have to be informed about this matter in any case, this really is a completely irrelevant clause.
We in the DA will not be party to this assault on the supremacy of Parliament, and we will use the Acts passed by this Parliament to prevent government by stealth. We will invoke the Act that gives us the right to information and the ANC members in the portfolio committee will rue the day they try to mess with the basic principles of transparency and democracy.
I must at this stage say that we have absolutely no opinion about the present Minister personally. But Acts of Parliament are not made for good Ministers; Acts of Parliament are made to curtail Ministers who do not behave and who do not know how to do their job. Our hon Minister is not in that category. We will vote against this. [Applause.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, doeltreffende landbounavorsing is van die uiterste belang, nie net vir Suid-Afrika nie, maar vir Afrika as geheel. Suid-Afrika lewer sowat 25% van Afrika se totale voedselproduksie op net 4% van die vasteland se grond. Daarom is dit noodsaaklik dat met die heersende tegnieke tred gehou word. Ons steun enige poging om die Landbounavorsingsraad se hande te sterk, en ons sou ook graag wou gehad het die begroting moes groter wees.
Wat hierdie wetsontwerp betref, het ons begrip daarvoor dat bestaande prosedure te omslagtig is en dat dit dalk ‘n probleem kan oplewer met die skeiding van die magte van die wetgewende en die uitvoerende gesag. Die huidige wetsontwerp wou dit regstel, maar gooi ongelukkig die kind met die badwater uit en laat nou die totale diskresie in die hande van die Minister.
Die AEB opponeer altyd by voorbaat sake waarin die Minister alleenseggenskap het. Ons is oortuig daarvan dat ‘n eenvoudige, ná- konsultasieklousule die antwoord sou wees en geensins in stryd met die Grondwet sou wees nie. Daarom kan ons nie die wetsontwerp steun soos dit op die oomblik hier staan nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairman, effective agricultural research is extremely important, not only for South Africa, but also for Africa as a whole. South Africa produces about 25% of Africa’s total food production on only 4% of the continent’s soil. That is why it is important to keep abreast of the current trends. We support any effort to strengthen the Agricultural Research Council’s hands, and would have liked the budget to be larger too.
As far as this Bill is concerned, we understand that the existing procedure is too cumbersome and that it could be a problem in respect of the separation of powers of the legislative and executive authorities. The present Bill attempted to rectify this, but unfortunately it throws the baby out with the bathwater and now leaves total discretion in the hands of the Minister.
The AEB always opposes matters in which the Minister has the final discretion in advance. We are convinced that a simple, after-consultation clause would have been the answer and would not have been in the least contrary to the Constitution. We therefore cannot support the Bill as it now stands.]
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson and hon members, I would have liked to go into the detail of what this Bill intends to do. But I would not like to waste the time of hon members, given that the hon G B Bhengu has actually done that as well as the chairperson of the committee, who also explained what the nature of the debate was and what was agreed on. I would like to thank the members of the portfolio committee, particularly those who have supported us on the amendment of this Bill.
I think it is important to indicate that while one has noted the concerns raised by the members of the DP, the FA and the AEB, I am sure that the hon members understand that indeed some of their concerns are really unfounded. The amendments that were made to this Bill, refined by the committee, does make room for the Minister actually to report to Parliament about the processes followed, as well as the members that have been appointed.
Clearly, all of us have agreed that the participation of Parliament in the executive function cannot be allowed. It does limit the oversight nature of Parliament. Therefore, I do not think what the hon Van Niekerk and hon Botha have said, that the ANC is actually trying to hide from members of the public what they are doing and how they are doing it, is true. I do not think that is correct.
I would like to thank all of those who have been involved and hope that all of us will appreciate the step that we have just taken, because it will assist us to actually move the process in order for us to speed up whatever is necessary in the appointment process of the council. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Party, New National Party, Federal Alliance and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).
CLOSE CORPORATIONS AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Order disposed of without debate.
Bill read a second time.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM - LEASING OF SEA SPACE
Order disposed of without debate.
Report adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS - PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY AGREEMENT
Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS - UN PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES CONVENTION
Order disposed of without debate.
Report adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS -
SPECIALISED AGENCIES' PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES CONVENTION
Order disposed of without debate.
Report adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND
CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT - CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS PROTOCOL
Order disposed of without debate.
Report adopted. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT - CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS SECOND PROTOCOL
Order disposed of without debate.
Report adopted (African Christian Democratic Party and Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).
REPLACEMENT OF MEMBER OF JUDICIAL SERVICES COMMISSION
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:
That the House, noting that Ms F I Chohan-Kota has resigned from the Judicial Services Commission with effect from 1 August 2001, designates Ms N N Mapisa-Nqakula, in terms of section 178(1)(h) of the Constitution, to replace her on the commission with effect from 1 August 2001.
Agreed to.
REPLACEMENT OF MEMBER OF MAGISTRATES COMMISSION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:
That the House, in terms of section 3(1)(a)(x) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993), designates Ms F I Chohan-Kota to replace Ms D P S Jana on the Magistrates Commission.
Agreed to.
RETIREMENT OF MR P A D LILIENFELD, UNDERSECRETARY TO THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:
That the House, noting the retirement of Mr P A D Lilienfeld, Undersecretary to the National Assembly, wishes to place on record its deep-felt gratitude to Mr Lilienfeld for 28 years of loyal service to Parliament and wishes him well in his retirement.
Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Chairperson, our transformation of this Parliament into one that reflects the nature of our democracy, that represents the aspirations of our people to be in control of their own destinies, that brings life to the principles of our Constitution and particularly our Bill of Rights, is a task that cannot be effected only by the elected representatives of the people. To deal with this enormously large range of issues of transformation, we need the commitment and support of the officials of Parliament. Indeed, the task of parliamentary officialsÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, we are now dealing with a situation where I think we need your attention. It needs to be a more solemn occasion. Could I please call you to order? Proceed, hon member.
Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson. Indeed, the task of parliamentary officials, from the most senior to the most junior, is one that is often underestimated, and the role that they have played in the process of seeing that Parliament is transformed to fulfil its role in our young democracy is often overlooked.
Peter Lilienfeld has played a critical role in bringing our new democracy to life. His role in assisting the Constitutional Steering Committee during the constitution-writing process, his work in establishing the process that was both consultative and efficient, was of paramount importance in our establishment of a constitutional state.
But this is not the only legacy that he leaves us on his retirement. Mr Lilienfeld was instrumental in setting up our international relations unit, as well as the Register of Members’ Interests. When any of us needed advice or assistance with information relating to international parliamentary practices or precedent, it was he who assisted us. Whenever we needed advice on technical matters, Mr Lilienfeld was available to us.
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Mr Lilienfeld is leaving us after serving this institution for 27 years. We wish him every success in the future. He will be sorely missed. [Applause.]
Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, saying goodbye to Peter Lilienfeld is not a pleasant duty. It is simply far too early for him to retire. I see that he was born in 1948. This makes him only ten years older than me, and I have no intention of retiring for at least another 20 years. [Interjections.] So before we take leave of him, I believe he should reconsider. It is like when one gets married. They used to have the banns, which were called every week. We have only called the banns once. I think before the third speaker comes, he can stand up and say that he has changed his mind.
Hon members are not always aware of how much work goes into keeping Parliament running. The Whips see a little more behind the scenes, and we know that Parliament is blessed with some outstanding officials, and Mr Lilienfeld ranks with the foremost of these.
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Mr D H M GIBSON: I have had the privilege of seeing him operate at the Constitutional Assembly level, and what he helped originate added greatly to the efficiency and effectiveness of the constitution-writing process. The hon Mr Doidge has referred to the creation of the Register of Members’ Interests. Mr Lilienfeld was the first registrar and he helped very considerably in getting this code off the ground and letting us set the example for South Africa.
He has made a very considerable contribution to Parliament during an honourable career, and I want to thank him, certainly on behalf of the DP, the New NP and the FA. He is a quiet and unassuming man, a modest man, and yet he really could stick out his chest because he has done a great deal for this Parliament over all these years. We are very sorry to say goodbye to him, but we wish him good luck and Godspeed. [Applause.]
Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Speaker, Mr Lilienfeld has been with Parliament, as we have heard, since 1973. Although I make it 28 years, be it 27, it is a long time in anybody’s thinking and it is certainly a long time to serve an institution. Many of us have only known Mr Lilienfeld since we arrived in
- Some of us have had the opportunity to work extensively with him over the past seven years. I have personally been one of those to have had the opportunity to work with him, through the constitutional process, briefly in the parliamentary international relations unit, and since the inception of the Register of Members’ Interests in 1997 until he handed over in 1998, and I can just say that that was rather a heated time, and his quiet, diligent manner really assisted us at that time.
In my experience he has been a quiet, polite and very diligent employee of this Parliament. He has worked in the interests of Parliament at all times, even at times when it was probably not easy, when members were giving him a great deal of trouble. Yet he has always been polite and helpful. We in the IFP thank him for his contribution to Parliament and to the new democracy.
Although he has been with Parliament for 28 years, he is still a young man with a lot to look forward to in his life, perhaps a new business venture, perhaps another career. We sincerely hope that it will be something of his choice and that he will look forward to doing whatever it is. He should not be too happy to be leaving us, because we are not very happy to lose him. We thank him once again, and we wish him every success for the future. Thank you very much from all of us. God bless. [Applause.]
Mr T ABRAHAMS: Madam Speaker, it is never a pleasant experience to say farewell to a key parliamentary official who has, over many years, given loyal and devoted service. Peter Lilienfeld is one of those uniquely conscientious and quietly efficient personalities, whose modesty can easily cause one to take him for granted. Peter has so well entrenched himself in the task of giving service to Parliament that one can be forgiven for feeling that he should forever be there for Parliament and its people.
Peter has qualified himself in the field of clinical psychology. Despite his keen interest in this field, he found himself to be attracted to parliamentary service. He did not just find himself a job in this place, he developed a deep interest in the institution and the conventions of Parliament and, more importantly, the people who make them function. He made his contribution in this respect. Peter is a role model for those who become interested in the National Assembly Table. In these days when people who enter the parliamentary service tend to regard appointed positions as stepping stones to something better, he is the personification of patience and consistent industriousness.
Arguably Peter’s most outstanding service was his role as Secretary to the Constitutional Assembly from 1994 to 1996. His name will always be directly linked to that stage of constitutional development of our country. Another interesting fact - hon members must be warned - is that Peter served as our very first Registrar of Members’ Interests. Members must watch out for their 4X4s. We say, ``Thank you Peter. Go well. We hate to see you go.’’ [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and members, on behalf of the ACDP, the UCDP, the PAC, the FF, the AEB and the MF, I rise in support of this draft resolution to commend Mr Lilienfeld, the Undersecretary to the National Assembly, for 28 years of loyal service to Parliament.
When we arrived at Parliament in 1994, we knew very little about the processes and procedures in Parliament. Mr Lilienfeld was always willing and available to assist all members of Parliament. His understanding of the Rules, procedures and customs of Parliament has been impressive, and his willingness to share this knowledge with all members of Parliament of all political parties is greatly appreciated by the minority parties today.
We wish him well in his well-deserved retirement. We trust that he will miss us as much as we will miss him. So on behalf of all the aforementioned minority parties, we wish him God’s richest blessings and may his retirement be filled with the laughter and joy of many grandchildren. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! I would like to add my voice to those that have expressed tributes to Peter Lilienfeld. My personal experience of him began the day I became Speaker, which is the very first day of our Parliament. He was the first member of staff with whom I interacted and from whom I received a great deal of much-needed assistance as I was sworn in. I think Peter has made a place for himself in my personal history. But he has also made a place for himself in the history of this country, because not only was he instrumental in the Constitutional Assembly, but his signature appears on the 1996 Constitution. [Applause.] I hope when people look at it they will see it as not only a scribble, but, in fact, a major contribution to the history of this country.
Peter, as has been said, has many skills. That meant that we deployed him in a whole range of avenues. This is why he was involved in the CA, the Registrar of Members’ Interests, international relations, and so on. As a need arose, Peter had the skills to go in there and assist in developing particular ideas and concepts. Amongst these, of course, was his work in international relations and there, again, on the preparatory committee of the IPU he helped to develop the idea of a closer relationship between the Interparliamentary Union and the United Nations.
On research, any time we needed to know what was being done in any parliament anywhere, Peter was our ready reference because if he did not already know it, he knew where to find it. I am afraid, Peter, you may think you are retiring, but that skill of yours we may well need to call on, to ask: ``Where are we going to find the following information?’’
I want to wish him well for the many years ahead. I hope he enjoys life and is not too bored. People who retire, often end up bored. But whether he is bored or not, he is always welcome to come back to us, because he goes from here as a colleague and friend, and we wish him the very best. We thank him on behalf of all of us. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Motion agreed to.
FAREWELL TO MR JANNIE MOMBERG
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party to move the following motion:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) that ANC whip Mr J H Momberg, MP, will be leaving Parliament to
become an ambassador abroad; and
(b) his outstanding service as a member of Parliament, especially
since 1994; and
(2) congratulates Mr Momberg on his appointment and wishes him the very best in his new office.
The SPEAKER: Order! I notice that Mr Momberg has given every party in this House an opportunity to speak. [Laughter.]
Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, this special debate, we are assured, does not constitute a precedent. If any other members of the ANC leave, all we will do is give three cheers. [Laughter.] In this case, though, there was a unanimous decision by all the parties that we had to have a little debate to wish Jannie well.
The first reason for this is that all the parties in the House were so delighted that he is leaving, that we thought we would like to say goodbye before he changed his mind. [Laughter.] The second reason is that three of the parties in this House have had the benefit of having Jannie as a member. He was a member of the NP, then he passed briefly through the DP on his way to the ANC. [Laughter.] Why the DP has reason to be so glad and grateful about Jannie’s brief sojourn in our party, is because when he become regional chairman of the DP in the Western Cape we had an overdraft of R600 000. [Laughter.] As chairman he collected the money, he paid up the overdraft and then he left us. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Thank you, Jannie.
I might tell members that for about a year after he left us he did not realise that he had a debit order running on his bank account. [Laughter.] So he kept on contributing to us while he was sitting in Parliament as an ANC member. [Laughter.] I have never told him that before. [Laughter.]
The third reason to say goodbye to Jannie is because he has interacted with all of the Whips for seven long years, and during that time he has apologised more times than anybody else in the history of the world. [Laughter.] The ANC has used Jannie and sometimes they have abused him, but they are going to miss him and we are going to miss him too.
This place would have been far worse if he had not been working to make it work. The appointment of the hon Jannie Momberg as South Africa’s ambassador to Greece is the realisation of a dream for him. We, on this side, wish him and his wife Trienie good luck and good fortune.
Tot siens, Jannie. Ons gaan jou mis. [Applous.] [Goodbye, Jannie. We shall miss you. [Applause.]]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, hearing about the fact that Mr Momberg paid the R600 000 overdraft, I have mandated my party to offer him immediate membership of the IFP. [Laughter.] We support the motion, and I want to say that I was one of the members who served in the previous parliament when Jannie was a Nat, and a Prog, and eventually an ANC member.
When I think of Jannie, I am reminded of maybe the most dramatic moment in the history of this Parliament, which also contributed to my expulsion from the Conservative Party 10 years ago, all caused by Jannie Momberg. [Laughter.] I remember that historic afternoon on 22 April 1992, when we gathered here. I was sitting where Johnny de Lange is now sitting. At the time Peter Soal ran to me with the exciting news that members of their party had resigned and would, as from that day, represent the ANC here in Parliament. Jannie Momberg was one of them and in fact Jannie was the first ANC member ever to sit in this House. [Applause.]
At that time, I turned to my colleagues in the Conservative Party and I said to them ``colleagues, the war has begun’’. They all threatened that the moment the ANC was in this House, the war would begin. They were totally shocked at the time and I will never forget the expression on their faces. [Laughter.] Needless to say, the only thing that came of the war, was the firm resolution to get rid of Koos van der Merwe, the liberal, as soon as possible. It did happen not long afterwards and of course Jannie Momberg is to blame for that. [Laughter.]
Incidentally colleagues, had the Conservative Party known on that Jannie Momberg day that I had by then already conducted secret discussions in Switzerland with an ANC leader, I would probably have been shot at sundown that day. The person I had secretly met and spoken to on the top floor of a Swiss hotel on a number of occasions, happened to be one Thabo Mbeki. Therefore, colleagues, Jannie Momberg was an integral part of the process of reform and transformation. In fact, he took a lead in that. At the time, he was looked upon by his own people as a traitor. This only encouraged Jannie to continue with the work which his conscience dictated to him. You do have a conscience, don’t you, Jannie?
It is therefore appropriate that Mr Momberg’s public career should be crowned with an ambassadorship in Greece. As a party whip, Jannie never acted as if he were an ANC person. He followed the example laid down by all ANC Chief Whips, starting with the Rev Arnold Stofile and still maintained by Tony Yengeni. They look at the merit of proposals in particular and acknowledge good points no matter from which party they come. This objective manner of whipping standards of course stood in direct contrast to the arrogant domination which we were subjected to during the previous regime under the National Party.
In saying goodbye to Jannie, we welcome Andries Nel as the new Whip who has already shownÿ.ÿ.ÿ. Madam Speaker, I had four minutes but now see that I have nothing left. [Laughter.] In the name of Jannie Momberg, I apply for 30 more seconds.
Jannie, jy moet mooi loop. Ons gaan jou mis, maar ons gaan vir jou kom kuier, en jy moet vir Trienie sê sy moet die koffie en die melktert reghou daar in Griekeland. Baie van ons gaan vir jou kom kuier. Laastens wil ek sê jy moet asseblief vir ons elkeen ‘n lekker hoofpaviljoenkaartjie vir die Olimpiese Spele hou. Groete, Jannie! Koebaai! [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Jannie, you must go well. We shall miss you, but we will come and visit you, and you must tell Trienie she must have the coffee and milk tart ready and waiting over in Greece. A lot of us are going to visit you there. Finally I want to ask you please to keep a good main pavilion ticket to the Olympic Games for each of us. Greetings, Jannie! Goodbye! [Applause.]]
Mr H A SMIT: Madam Speaker and hon members, for those members who do not know, the hon Koos van der Merwe used to be a staunch member of Parliament for the old National Party and he represented Jeppe in the old Transvaal.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Stay out of my dirty past! [Laughter.]
Mr H A SMIT: Madam Speaker, I will address this hon House today in my mother tongue because this is the home language of both myself and Mr Jannie Momberg.
Wanneer ek dit sê, doen ek dit om ‘n paar redes. Dit was die taal waarin ek en Jannie Momberg mekaar die eerste keer 31 jaar gelede ontmoet het en met mekaar gepraat het. Dit is die taal waarin ons politiek gepraat het toe hy nog met sy gesin in die ou herehuis op Neethlingshof buite Stellenbosch gebly het.
Dit was die taal waarin mnr Momberg en ek geprobeer het om die ou NP in Stellenbosch en die Helderberg-omgewing uit te bou. Dit was die taal waarin ek en hy een aand baie laat gesels het nadat hy, volgens my onregverdig, gekasty is by ‘n NP-kongres toe hy opgestaan het en gedurf waag het om hom uit te spreek teen die ou apartheidstrukture, spesifiek met verwysing na die destydse Wet op Groepsgebiede.
‘n Boek sou ek sekerlik oor Jan Momberg en sy familie kon skryf. Ek dink hy kan dankbaar wees en sy kinders gelukkig om ‘n eggenote en ‘n ma soos Trienie Momberg te hê. [Applous.] Ja, daar was ‘n tyd in ons lewe wat ons kontak minder gereeld was. Die politiek van die periode het dit veroorsaak. Daar was ‘n tyd toe mnr Momberg hom meer van die politiek gedistansieer het omdat hy hom meer gewy het aan atletiek en aan die loopbaan van Zola Budd.
My waardering vir mnr Momberg het egter momentum gekry ná die 1994- verkiesing, toe ek die voorreg gehad het om as hoofsweep van die amptelike opposisie baie nou met hom en die destydse hoofsweep van die ANC, eerw Stofile, saam te werk. Dit was Jan wat brûe moes bou, as weerligafleier en baie keer as ‘n slaansak moes dien. Dit is hy wat hom in ‘n stadium selfs tot in die hospitaal gewerk het, want soggens wanneer baie nog geslaap het, kon ‘n mens sy motor reeds in die parkeergarage kry, omdat hy geglo het hy moes deel hê daarin om hierdie jong demokrasie te laat werk.
Nou vertrek hy en Trienie na die land van die gode. Mag hulle oor u die wag hou en toesien dat ons deelname aan die volgende Olimpiese Spele meer suksesvol sal wees as aan die vorige een. Aan hierdie vriend en kollega sê ek: politiek is soos rolskaatse: jy gaan gedeeltelik in die rigting waarin jy wil, maar ook gedeeltelik waarheen die dekselse goed jou neem. Ek sien daarna uit om eendag, hopelik in Athene, Zorba se dans met die Mombergs te dans, borde stukkend te gooi en ‘n glasie ouzo met hulle te klink. Ons groet jou, Jan. Jou bydrae was groot. Ons groet jou met hamba kahle [mooi loop]. Tot siens, ou maat! [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[When I say this, I do so for a few reasons. It was the language in which Jannie Momberg and I first met and spoke to one another 31 years ago. It is the language in which we talked politics when he still lived in the old manor house at Neethlingshof outside Stellenbosch with his family.
It was the language in which Mr Momberg and I tried to enlarge the old NP in Stellenbosch and the Helderberg area. It was the language in which he and I spoke until late into the night once after he, in my view unjustly so, was castigated at an NP congress, when he had stood up and dared to speak out against the old apartheid structures, specifically with reference to the erstwhile Group Areas Act.
I could certainly have written a book on Jan Momberg and his family. I think he can be grateful and his children fortunate to have a wife and mother like Trienie Momberg. [Applause.] Yes, there was a time in our lives that our contact was less regular. The politics of the time caused it. There was a time when Mr Momberg distanced himself from politics somewhat to devote himself to athletics and Zola Budd’s career.
My appreciation for Mr Momberg gained momentum, however, after the 1994 elections, when I had the privilege, as Chief Whip of the Official Opposition, of working very closely with him and the former Chief Whip of the ANC, Rev Stofile. It was Jan who had to build bridges, and often had to serve as a lightning conductor and a punch bag. It was he who worked himself into hospital at one stage, because in the morning, when many were still sleeping, one could already find his motor car in the parking garage, because he believed that he had to play a part in getting this young democracy to work.
Now he and Trienie are leaving for the land of the gods. May they watch over them and ensure that our participation in the next Olympic Games is more successful than the previous one. To this friend and colleague I want to say: Politics is like roller skating, one partly goes in the direction in which one wants to go, but one partly goes where the confounded skates take one. I am looking forward to one day, hopefully in Athens, dancing Zorba’s dance with the Mombergs, breaking plates and clinking a glass of ouzo with them. We greet you, Jan. Your contribution was great. We greet you with hamba kahle [go well]. Goodbye, old friend! [Applause.]]
Mr C T FROLICK: Madam Speaker and hon members, the hon Momberg will be remembered not only for his political contributions to this Parliament, but also for his active role in cultural and sporting activities. May he never be accused of a lack of enthusiasm.
Oom Jannie certainly has a unique style, which has often not been very popular, certainly not always conventional, but almost always sincere. We are of the opinion that his unique style will bring a new dimension to the diplomatic corps abroad. History will record his contributions to the establishment and development of democracy in South Africa. He will be remembered as one of the first Afrikaner politicians to make the mind-shift to the new realities of the new South Africa, and to have the courage of his convictions to join a nonracial party.
We wish the hon Momberg the best of luck in his new endeavour and hope that he will be an asset to South Africa’s continuing campaign to play an influential role in the international political arena.
Tot siens, Oom Jannie, maar u werk is nog nie klaar nie. [Applous.] [Goodbye, Oom Jannie, but your job is not done yet. [Applause.]]
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, it is with sadness that we take leave of the hon Jannie Momberg. We will always remember Jannie as a hard-working Whip, who went out of his way to make the lives of especially the smaller opposition parties more comfortable. We want to thank him for always being available for us.
I remember the many times we approached him to assist us with several requests, and despite the amount of work he had to do within his own party, he was always available for us. I do not recall a single occasion when Jannie refused to assist us with advice or when we needed more time. He was always willing to give us time after having spoken to his Chief Whip.
He has a great sense of humour and he has always entertained us with this sense of humour. He is going to Greece and we will miss him greatly, but we believe that there will be time for us to come and visit him in Greece. May God bless him, his wife and his family. [Applause.]
Dr C P MULDER: Mev die Speaker, vir elkeen van ons wat lid is van dié Huis was daar ‘n tyd om te kom, toe ons ons as lede by dié Huis aangesluit het, maar vir elkeen van ons is daar ook ‘n tyd om te gaan. Dit is die beloop van die lewe. Vandag is dit ons agb kollega mnr Jan Momberg, se beurt om te gaan.
Ons in die opposisie-partye het mnr Momberg goed leer ken as die ANC se sweep in beheer van die program-komitee wat spesifiek verantwoordelik is vir reëlings ten opsigte van opposisie-partye. Namens die VF wil ek hom hartlik bedank vir sy positiewe gesindheid en hulp in alle opsigte. Hy het ons werklik gehelp met baie dinge.
Ek wil die agb mnr Momberg vandag egter waarsku en vir hom sê hy moet baie versigtig omgaan met al die mooi woorde wat vandag hier aan hom gerig word. Ek vermoed ons agb kollegas wat dié mooi goed sê, is almal van plan om in Griekeland te gaan kuier en hy gaan met die gebakte pere sit.
Dit is so dat die agb Jannie en sy vrou op pad is Griekeland toe. Uit VF- geledere wil ons hulle die beste en mooiste toewens. Mag hul ampstermyn baie geseënd wees. Mag hy sy tyd daar geniet. Ons sê vir hom baie dankie vir wat hy gedoen het.
Die VF ondersteun baie graag die mosie. Ons wens hom alles van die beste toe, en, totsiens! [Applous.] (Translation of Akrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, for every one of us who is a member of this House there was a time to come, when we joined this House as members, but for everyone of us there is also a time to leave. That is the way of the world. Today it is our hon colleague Mr Jan Momberg’s turn to leave.
We, from the opposition parties, came to know Mr Momberg very well as the ANC Whip in charge of the programme committee which was specifically responsible for arrangements with regard to opposition parties. On behalf of the FF I would like to sincerely thank him for his positive attitude and for his help in all respects. He has really helped us with many things. I would however like to warn Mr Momberg today and tell him that he should deal very carefully with all the fine words which are directed at him here today. I suspect that our hon colleagues who are uttering these beautiful words are all planning to visit Greece and he is going to be left holding the baby.
It is a fact that the hon Jannie and his wife are on their way to Greece. From the ranks of the FF we would like to wish them both everything of the best. May their term of office be blessed. May he enjoy his time over there. We say thank you very much to him for what he has done.
The FF supports this motion with great pleasure. We wish him everything of the best and farewell! [Applause.]]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, hon members, Jannie Momberg leaves active politics, having been at the coalface for 44 years. They are years he really looks back on with pride.
While an affable man, Jannie can be a tough negotiator who rarely gives any quarter, but once one has found common ground with him, one could bank on his word. He is quite dependable. Ambassadorship is nothing new to Mr Momberg. He became ambassador for the ANC in 1992, when he represented the organisation in this Parliament. It looks like President Mbeki was reminded of the words in the Book of Books when he considered Mr Momberg for ambassadorship:
Well done, thou good and faithful servant! Thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of this world!
Jannie is thus leaving us to rub shoulders with royalty and heads of state. In Greece, at national events, protocol will be incorrect and incomplete if there is no mention of His Excellency, Mr Jan Hendrik Momberg, the Ambassador of the Republic of South Africa to Greece! [Laughter.]
Kwa bokhutlong ra re: Nko ya kgomo mogala tshwara thata! E se re o utlwa sebodu wa kgaoga. [In conclusion, I would like to say: Stay in good spirits!] Vasbyt! Hou die blink kant bo! [Hang in there! Look on the bright side!] Keep your pecker up! [Applause.]
Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, our first word naturally is one of congratulations to Jannie Momberg. He has been an asset to so many parties that, as I sat there, I felt that his departure has robbed the PAC of his special assets because we thought that the PAC would be his next natural home. [Laughter.]
His ability and dedication to the office was very clear to all. His human relations obviously qualified him for the diplomatic posting. I believe that a Whip must always have the qualities that he has. He is a role model for the Whips. We will miss him.
I will personally miss the chop-chop'' coming from this side of the
House. [Laughter.] I believe that if I do not hear them then I might have
said something wrong because each time I say something right, I hear him
saychop-chop’’ from this side. [Laughter.]
I hope in Greece he will learn to speak Greek very quickly, and that he will occasionally write a letter to this House. I believe that it will all be Greek. I have done a bit of classical Greek, and I offer to translate all his letters when they do arrive here for the lesser mortals of this august House. [Applause.]
Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Madam Speaker, I have known Jannie Momberg since 1957, when we were first-years …
… eerstejaars in Dagbreek. Ek sal maar Afrikaans praat. Dit is waar ons mekaar leer ken het. Van daardie dag af het ons vriendskap gegroei en gebloei. Ons het baklei en gestry, soos wat net die agb Jannie dit kan regkry. Maar dit het altyd gehou. Ek wil hom bedank vir al die jare van vriendskap en vir wat hy hier gedoen het.
Die FA wou eers nie aan die debat deelneem nie, want ons het gemeen ‘n ``after-party’’ is beter as om hier formeel totsiens te sê. Ons sal dit in elk geval agterna ook doen. Die FA wil die wens uitspreek dat dit met hom goed sal gaan. Mag hy die vrede vind waarna hy in sy lewe strewe. Mag hy in Griekeland die tyd kry om weer aandag te skenk aan sy gesin en mag dit daar net maanskyn en rose wees. Ons wens hom alle voorspoed toe. Mag dit met hom goed gaan! [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[… first-years at Dagbreek. I am going to speak Afrikaans. That is where we got to know one another. From that point on our friendship grew. We fought and argued, as only the hon Jannie can do. But it always held true. I want to thank him for all the years of friendship and for what he has done here.
Initially the FA did not want to participate in the debate, because we felt that an after-party would be better than saying goodbye formally here. We will do that afterwards as well in any case. The FA wants to express the wish that all will go well with him. May he find the peace in his life which he is striving for. May he have the time in Greece to pay attention to his family again and may it be only moonlight and roses there. We wish him everything of the best. May it go well with him! [Applause.]]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, I have come to say that Jannie cannot go because he has not completed his task! He has not improved on my one-minute speaking time! [Laughter.] Unless he is going to improve on it, he cannot go! [Laughter.]
May I take this opportunity, on behalf on the MF, to bid farewell to our Comrade Jannie Momberg who is going to represent South Africa as an ambassador in Greece. We are proud of him. We are proud that working with him for the past two years was a pleasure. Even with his different moods at times! [Laughter.] His advice and assistance will always be appreciated. Let him go well! Let him keep the South African flag flying! We will miss him! [Applause.]
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, may I start off by congratulating the hon the President on this appointment. In sending Jannie Momberg as an ambassador to Greece the hon the President has finally proved that he really cares about Parliament. [Laughter.]
Jannie Momberg became part of the furniture of this place. [Laughter.] If I am correct …
… was die agb Jannie al hier toe die Sappe nog die land geregeer het. [Gelag.] [ … the hon Jannie was already here when the old United Party was still governing the country. [Laughter.]]
On the very first day when my wife and I arrived here, he was the man who made us, the rookies, feel at ease.
Hy was toe die gasheer. Ek het dié dag nog vir my vrou gesê sy moet mooi kyk, só lyk ‘n wit ANC. Ons het nie voorheen so-iets geken nie. [Gelag.] Sedert daardie dag was die agb Oom Jannie, in sy hoedanigheid as sweep, die man wat hulp, raad en ondersteuning aan ons as opposisiepartye gebied het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[He was the host, then. On that day I still told my wife to take a good look, because that was what a white ANC looked like. We had never seen anything like that before. [Laughter.] From that day on the hon Oom Jannie, in his capacity as Whip, was the man who offered assistance, advice and support to us as opposition parties.]
Madam Speaker, you may be the general of this place, but I think Jannie Momberg was the sergeant-major of this place. [Laughter.]
Ons wil vir die agb Oom Jannie baie sterkte toewens en die hoop uitspreek
dat hy die nuwe lewe, en die Olimpiese Spele, sal geniet. Ons het baie maal
met die agb Oom Jannie geploeg. Tot nou toe was dit Swem Jannie, swem'',
maar ek meen oor ses maande gaan hy 'n telegram kry wat sê:Jantjie, kom
huis toe, die Kaap is leeg sonder jou’’. [Gelag.] [Applous.] (Translation
of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[We would like to wish the hon Oom Jannie everything of the best and
express the hope that he will enjoy this new life, and the Olympic Games.
We often used to give the hon Oom Jannie a hard time. It was always Swem,
Jannie, swem'', but I think that in six months' time he will be receiving a
telegram that says:Jantjie, kom huis toe, die Kaap is leeg sonder jou’’.
[Laughter.] [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, in the very first
conversation that I had with the hon Momberg in Pretoria, he told me how,
shortly after joining the ANC, he used to stand up and follow his comrades
when they were greeting him saying: Kunjani?''. He thought they were
saying:Kom, Jannie’’. [Laughter.] And it seems to me he has been walking
ever since. None of us has missed him walking amongst our seats here,
walking in the corridors of Parliament, walking in the Whips Forum and
putting our backs up. Even now, he came to order that I must come and speak
because this is his last debate. But whatever he did, he did service for
his country.
The biggest challenge he will face in the land of diplomacy is how not to put people’s backs up. [Laughter.] But we know that he is going to do his best for his country. We wish him well, and we have full confidence that our country will be well represented by him. [Applause.]
Mr T S YENGENI: Madam Speaker, may I start off by recognising in the gallery the presence of Jannie’s wife, Mrs Trienie Momberg … [Applause] … and their four sons - Niels, Steyn, Jannie and Altus. [Applause.]
It is hard to imagine the National Assembly without the presence of the hon Jannie Momberg, for the hon Comrade Momberg symbolises the best of our transformation to democracy. He is the embodiment of the spirit of transformation, cherishing what is good and valuable from our past but determined to contribute to the new South Africa.
For us in the ANC, Jannie Momberg has, since 1992 when he joined us, been a tower of strength. His passion for Parliament, and his understanding of parliamentary procedure, were invaluable when we came to Parliament in
- Of course, he had to learn the ways of the ANC.
It was not always easy for this larger-than-life figure, to adapt to the consultative way of working that characterises the ANC. [Laughter.] And, he was often given a hard time. It was not always easy for many of our members who had no experience of such a man to learn that, under the rough and gruff, here is a man whose devotion to the people is unquestionable.
Jannie Momberg has walked a long road from his past as a National Party student leader. Whilst hardly a radical, Jannie’s commitment to the people led him to join the ANC in 1992. The reaction of his community, his church and his longtime associates was extreme. When he and his wife went to church on Sundays, no one would sit next to them.
He was subjected to a campaign of vilification in the press as, indeed, in this House, he was heckled louder than any other ANC member. But Jannie soldiered on, always larger than life. The ANC caucus accorded him a very senior position in Parliament, because we recognised his worth. For it is the character of the ANC to recognise worth, commitment and dedication.
There are surely few parliamentarians in the world who love Parliament as Jannie does. Even when away from Parliament, he would watch a tape of the day’s proceedings and not be shy to give his comments and ideas to us. [Laughter.]
Jannie Momberg is not always an easy man to work with. His passions are intense. His commitment and devotion to duty sometimes make him impatient of inefficiency. But underneath his blustering exterior lies a man with a heart of gold - a man who will walk that extra mile to solve the problems of a constituent or a colleague from any party.
Jannie, as an ambassador for this country, will surely advance the interests of South Africa and all its citizens. But this Parliament will not be the same without Jannie. Certainly, it will be a lot quieter. [Laughter.] This Chamber will no longer resound to Jannie’s heckles of ``jou lowlife’’. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Programming meetings will be more orderly. But parliamentary life will be less colourful and more predictable. He will live on as an ever-present figure in this Parliament.
We know that when he finally retires, he will come and sit in the gallery and behave himself, I hope. [Laughter.] We expect to still see him in the gallery in 20 years’ time. How else will Mrs Momberg get him out of her hair? [Laughter.] In fact, I am whipping the hon Jannie Momberg to return to the gallery when he retires from public service.
Jannie Momberg will continue to serve his country and democracy whether still working or retired. He is a man who knows the meaning and joy of service. I will miss him. The ANC and the ANC caucus will miss him. Parliament will miss him. The nation will miss him.
We want to assure Greece, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia that, with Jannie Momberg as their ambassador, their countries will never be the same. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Farewell, jou lowlife! [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I urge you to sit back. I notice that Mr Momberg has allocated himself open-ended time. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mr J H MOMBERG: Madam Speaker, kalispera''! That is Greek forHallo!’’
[Laughter.] It is very difficult to stand here today to say goodbye. I want
to thank the various speakers for all the kind things that they have said
about me. I really appreciate it, colleagues. It makes me feel that, at
least, I have done something meaningful and worthwhile in the time I was
here.
I came to Parliament in 1989. I love this place. I believe that Parliament is a great institution, which plays a crucial role in the daily lives of our people. We take decisions here which affect the lives of our people. I believe that we must do nothing to harm this institution. We, as MPs, must protect this institution with great diligence, almost with jealousy.
I sometimes get very angry when I hear all the derogatory remarks made about the gravy train, corruption, laziness, incompetence, etc. I do not believe this image of Parliament and its members is correct or fair.
I worked very hard to build a good relationship with the Whips of all opposition parties. I believe very strongly that we need to accommodate all parties in Parliament, be it a party with 38 members or be it a party with only one member. I worked hard to build a relationship of trust with all these parties. I want to thank all the Whips of all parties for their co- operation to make this a truly democratic institution.
I want to apologise again to Mr Gibson for those times when I was rude, insulting or abrasive and for the bad language I sometimes used. [Interjections.] I want to apologise to Mr Andrew for calling him a ``suurgat’’. [Laughter.] At least it never left permanent scars, except for one hon member.
Madam Speaker, I want to thank you, especially, for the role that you played to make this a wonderful institution. I want to predict that many years down the road, the future members of this House will learn of a great Speaker that lead this august House during its formative years. [Applause.]
I want to thank my colleagues of the ANC for giving me, a white man with a terrible political past, the opportunity to serve here. The ANC gave me the home where I at least could attempt to put right those things that I did wrong during my younger days. [Applause.] For that, I would like to thank them very much.
I want to thank the three Chief Whips whom I served with since 1994: Comrades Arnold Stofile, Max Sisulu and Tony Yengeni. I want to thank my fellow ANC Whips for the wonderful seven years that I could serve with them. I particularly want to thank my Deputy Chief Whip, Comrade Geoff Doidge, for his friendship and understanding. He was like a younger brother to me. I want to thank the ANC and all the people who tolerated me in those days when I was sometimes very rude to some of them. [Interjections.]
I want to thank the ANC staff and the staff of Parliament, the Secretary to Parliament, the secretary of the National Assembly, Mr Mansura, and all the people with whom I have worked over so many years. I must mention the people because, as we said in the previous debate, we are lucky to have people of that ability. I mean, we do not always really understand what it means to have a Kallie Pauw or Coert Smit, just to push the buttons. People play a crucial role in Parliament.
In conclusion, may I thank my wife and sons and their families who are here today, for their love, loyalty and understanding. [Applause.] I know that there are people who are lifting their eyebrows about me becoming an ambassador because, I think, I must be the most unambassadorial ambassador. [Laughter.] All the same, I have been appointed. I am learning from what I see, so I am learning all the time. But I have no doubt that you have appointed a very good ambassador’s wife to go to Greece. [Laughter.] I am looking forward to my new job with great expectation. I want to thank the President and the Minister of Foreign Affairs for appointing me to go abroad as an ambassador. I will not fail them.
Now, I want to say goodbye to you. Thank you for your love, loyalty and friendship. I will miss you all, and will think back to you with great memories. Go well, my brothers and sisters. Nisale kakuhle bantakwethu nodadewethu [Goodbye, my brothers and sisters]. Alles van die beste. [Everything of the best.] God bless you all. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, your ovation establishes that this motion has been approved unanimously.
I want to associate myself with what has been said and stress again the appreciation that we as presiding officers have had for the contribution Jannie has made. Jannie, of course, did apologise. [Interjections.] Jannie did you arrange for the microphones to be off? That illustrates the point that Jannie always apologised whether he was right or wrong, and on more occasions than not he was right and really rarely was he wrong.
Jannie is qualified to be an ambassador because it took great diplomatic skill to negotiate agreement amongst the Whips. So he has had very relevant experience. I am sure Mr Pahad has noticed this and that is why he was recommended for this new job.
Jannie, you will be missed in the programming committee in particular, for your diplomatic skill, as I have indicated, and, of course, for your unique style of heckling in the House. You go into a new career and a new country, and you take our good wishes with you. You demonstrate that it is never too late nor is anyone too old to learn new tricks and new ways. I am sure you will miss us. I know the National Assembly will miss you. Go well, dear colleague.
We come to the end of our business for the day, and we come to the end of this term. You go on leave, much deserved, I know. You go back also to constituency work which, we hope, you will fulfil and I hope you come back refreshed, ready to debate issues rather than people. We hope to have a good year for the rest of this year. I hate to remind you, but you are expected back by 20 August when Parliament will resume its business.
Debate concluded.
Motion agreed to.
The House adjourned at 17:43. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
MONDAY, 25 JUNE 2001
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 25 June 2001 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a money Bill:
(i) Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 36 - 2001] (National
Assembly - sec 77).
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
(1) The following private member's legislative proposal was
submitted to the Speaker on 25 June 2001, in accordance with Rule
234:
(i) Draft Unemployed Employable South African National
Database Bill (Nkosi M W Hlengwa).
In accordance with Rule 235 the legislative proposal has been
referred to the Standing Committee on Private Members' Legislative
Proposals and Special Petitions by the Speaker.
- The Speaker: The following paper tabled on 22 June 2001 is now referred to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism for consideration and report:
Request of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, in
terms of section 6 of the Sea-shore Act, 1935 (Act No 21 of 1935), to
lease to Salmon Salar Sea Farming (Pty) Ltd sea space for the
mariculture of salmon in an offshore floating area at Kleinbaai
(Franskraal) area NAJLZLMN, near Gansbaai in the Western Cape.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Finance:
Explanatory Memorandum on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill, 2001 [WP 2-
2001].
- The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
(1) Government Notice No R.354 published in the Government Gazette
No 22239 dated 20 April 2001, Amendment of Regulations, made in
terms of 81(2) of the Attorneys Act, 1979 (Act No 53 of 1979).
(2) Government Notice No R.373 published in the Government Gazette
No 22265 dated 30 April 2001, Rules regulating the conduct of the
proceedings of the various Provincial and Local Divisions of the
High Court of South Africa: Repeal of Rule 37A, and Transitional
Provisions, made in terms of section 6 of the Rules Board for
Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).
(3) Proclamation No R.28 published in the Government Gazette No
22247 dated 20 April 2001, Commencement of section 4 of the
Criminal Procedure Amendment Act, 1997 (Act No 76 of 1997) from 20
April 2001.
(4) Government Notice No 898 published in the Government Gazette No
22250 dated 20 April 2001, Directives under section 4 of the
Criminal Procedure Amendment Act, 1997 (Act No 76 of 1997).
(5) Proclamation No R.29 published in the Government Gazette No
22261 dated 30 April 2001, Extension of the period of operation of
sections 51 and 52 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1997 (Act No
105 of 1997), made in terms of section 53(2) of the Criminal Law
Amendment Act, 1997 (Act No 105 of 1997).
(6) Government Notice No R.423 published in the Government Gazette
No 22284 dated 18 May 2001, Regulations in terms of the National
Prosecuting Authority Act, 1998, made in terms of section 40 read
with sections 16(3) and 25(2) of the National Prosecuting
Authority Act, 1998 (Act No 32 of 1998).
(7) Proclamation No R.31 published in the Government Gazette No
22333 dated 28 May 2001, Dissolution of the Committee on Amnesty,
made in terms of section 43(2) of the Promotion of National Unity
and Reconciliation Act, 1995 (Act No 34 of 1995). 3. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:
Report of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism for 2000-
2001 [RP 67-2001].
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
-
Report of the Joint Committee on Revenue Laws Amendment Bill on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 36 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 25 June 2001:
The Joint Committee on Revenue Laws Amendment Bill, having considered the subject of the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 36 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Money Bill, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism on the Leasing of Sea Space, dated 25 June 2001:
The Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism, having considered the Request of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to lease to Salmon Salar Sea Farming (Pty) Ltd sea space for the mariculture of salmon in an offshore floating area at Kleinbaai (Franskraal) area NAJLZLMN, near Gansbaai in the Western Cape, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 6 of the Sea-shore Act, 1935 (Act No 21 of 1935), approve the said Request.
Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises on the Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 25 June 2001:
The Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, having considered the Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75) and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 734), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 16C - 2001].
Report to be considered.
TUESDAY, 26 JUNE 2001
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
following Bills:
(i) South African Sports Commission Amendment Bill [B 2B -
2001] - Act No 7 of 2001 (assented to and signed by
President on 22 June 2001); and
(ii) South African Weather Service Bill [B 54D - 2000] - Act No
8 of 2001 (assented to and signed by President on 22 June
2001).
(2) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 June 2001 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75
Bills:
(i) Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B 33 - 2001] (National
Assembly - sec 75).
(ii) Trade Practices Amendment Bill [B 34 - 2001] (National
Assembly - sec 75).
(iii) Companies Amendment Bill [B 35 - 2001] (National Assembly
- sec 75).
(iv) National Parks Amendment Bill [B 38 - 2001] (National
Assembly - sec 75).
(3) The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to
the relevant committees as mentioned below:
(1) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
on Public Works, the Portfolio Committee on Transport, the
Portfolio Committee on Housing, the Portfolio Committee on
Water Affairs and Forestry and the Portfolio Committee on
Provincial and Local Government. It is also referred to the
Select Committee on Public Services, the Select Committee on
Land and Environmental Affairs and the Select Committee on
Local Government and Administration:
Report of the Inter-Ministerial Task Team on Construction
Industry Development for the period November 1997 to April
2001.
(2) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
on Foreign Affairs and to the Select Committee on Economic
Affairs for information:
Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
Africa and the People's Government of the Democratic Republic
of Algeria on the establishment of a Binational Commission of
Co-operation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
Constitution, 1996.
(3) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
on Justice and Constitutional Development and to the Select
Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs. The Report
of the Auditor-General contained in the following paper is
referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
consideration and report:
Report and Financial Statements of the Legal Aid Board for
1997-98, 1998-99 and 1999-2000, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 1997-98, 1998-
99 and 1999-2000.
(4) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
on Water Affairs and Forestry and to the Select Committee on
Land and Environmental Affairs:
Government Notice No R.509 published in Government Gazette No
22355 dated 8 June 2001, Regulations relating to compulsory
National Standards and Measures to conserve water, made in
terms of section 9(1) and 73(1)(j) of the Water Services Act,
1997 (Act No 108 of 1997).
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
Bill passed by National Assembly on 26 June 2001: To be submitted to
President of the Republic for assent:
(i) Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec
75).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
(a) Report of the South African Law Commission on a New Sentencing
Framework, Project 82 [RP 57-2001].
(b) The Fourth Interim Report of the South African Law Commission on
Aspects of the Law Relating to Aids, Project 85 [RP 40-2001].
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Report of the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons on Study Tour to Germany, dated 9 June 2001:
The Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and
Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons, having undertaken a
study tour to Berlin, Germany, from 7 to 14 October 2000, reports as
follows:
A. Background
The study tour took place as a result of the Committee's decision
to meet the German Parliamentary Committee on Labour and Social
Affairs as well as non-governmental organisations (NGOs) concerned
with children, youth and disabled persons. A programme for the
delegation was compiled by Mr G Setlhoke and Mr J Beck from the
Office of the South African Embassy in Berlin.
1. Composition of delegation
The delegation comprised of the following:
Members of National Assembly: Ms M S Maine
(ANC); Mr L Nzimande (ANC); Ms E Gandhi (ANC); Mrs Mbuyazi
(IFP); Mr V Gore (DP); and Ms M Rajbally (MF).
Members of National Council of Provinces: Mr B Willem - leader
of delegation (Eastern Cape); Mr J Mkhaliphi (Mpumalanga); Mr
T Setona (Free State); and Mr N Raju (KwaZulu-Natal).
In addition, three personal assistants and the Committee
Secretary accompanied the delegation.
2. Terms of reference
To study the German -
(1) policy and legislation in respect of children, youth and
disabled persons;
(2) policy and programmes in respect of children, youth and
disabled persons,
And to learn about -
(3) how their parliamentary committee carries out its function
of oversight and monitoring, especially the
implementation of policy and legislation in respect of
children, youth and disabled persons;
(4) the role of NGOs in monitoring governmental policies and
programmes, and their effectiveness in meeting the needs
of children, youth and disabled persons.
3. Objectives of trip
(1) To learn from the successes and drawbacks experienced by
the Germans in the fields outlined above.
(2) To take these experiences into account in developing own
policies and legislation.
(3) To develop own oversight and monitoring functions, taking
into account the German experience.
4. Consultations and briefings
Meetings were held with the following:
(1) Dr Beate Schmidt-Behlau, Dr Jorg Maywald and Mr Karl
Spath, of the National Coalition for the Implementation
of the UN Convention for the Protection of Children's
Rights in Germany.
(2) Mr Burkhard Wilke, Managing Director of the Germany
Central Institute for Social Matters.
(3) Dr Hartmut Haines, Head of the Section for Basic
Programmes of Prevention, Rehabilitation, Policy and
Rights of Integration of Disabled People.
(4) Mr Bernhard Schneider, Head, and Dr Gerhard Polzin,
Assistant Head, of Interministerial Staff at
Representative of the Federal Government for Affairs
concerning Disabled People.
(5) Dr Dolly Conto Obregon, Director of the International
Street Children Archive Research and Counselling Centre.
(6) Dr Edith Niehuis, Parliamentary State Secretary, and Mr
Jochen Weitzel, Deputy Head of Division for Children and
Youth Policy.
B. Meeting with Ambassador
Prof Bengu, the South African Ambassador to Germany, briefed the
delegation on the Binational Commission between South Africa and
Germany, for the purpose of facilitating high-level dialogue and
promoting co-operation on key issues of national concern to South
Africa and Germany.
The following five focal areas were identified for further
consultation and negotiation:
1. Educational and vocational training.
2. Promotion of the private sector, particularly small businesses.
3. Low-cost housing and infrastructural development.
4. Rural development and management of natural resources.
5. Government and administrative advisory services, particularly
at provincial level.
The delegation was further informed that the Embassy is at present
involving churches and the private sector to assist in the
elimination of poverty in South Africa. Strategies have been
developed by the Embassy to ensure collaboration between the
government, the private sector and churches.
The Germans have developed very good policies on education and
skills training in order to deal with poverty and unemployment. A
study of these in particular would be of use to South Africa.
The delegation noted that the South African government is
embarking on policies aimed at transformation and development, and
that the Committee will benefit from this study tour.
C. Consultation 1: German National Coalition for Implementation of
UN Convention for Protection of Children's Rights in Germany
1. Introduction
The delegation was briefed by Dr Beate Schmidt-Behlau, Dr Jorg
Maywald and Mr Karl Spath of the Coalition.
The delegation learnt that on 24 May 1995, 40 German NGOs,
engaged in the field of child and youth welfare and policies,
formally founded the Coalition. By September 1999, the number
of affiliates had risen to 90 organisations, covering a broad
spectrum of areas pertaining to the rights of the child.
2. Aims of Coalition
(1) To encourage and monitor government action towards
implementation of the convention.
(2) To invite promotors from a broad cross-section of society
to act towards the implementation of the convention, and
to hold conferences, workshops and open fora on relevant
issues.
(3) To discuss and disseminate the convention in Germany for
all children up to the age of 18.
(4) To support the involvement of children and young people in
the discussion and implementation of the convention.
(5) To exchange information on the process of implementation
at international level and inform members about
activities in the international field through the NGO
group in Geneva.
3. Structure and working method
Since March 1996 the German Child Welfare Alliance has been
hosting the secretariat of the Coalition. Start-up funding was
provided from the foundation Deutsche Jugendmarke and enabled
the Coalition to employ a full-time co-ordinator and
secretariat for a year.
Further funding from the German government has been secured up
to the year 2001. A steering committee of 16 members, eight of
whom represented organisations affiliated to the German Child
Welfare Association, agreed on a list of principles, statutes
and regulations.
Its decisions are based on consensus among all members, and it
meets regularly, about every two to three months. In March
2000 the steering group nominated Mike Corsa and Dr Jorg
Maywald as speakers of the Coalition, for two years. In
accordance with the member organisations, this group develops
a plan of action and decides on strategies to promote the
implementation of the convention.
As a follow-up on activities recommended in the concluding
observations of the Committee, the steering group examined
particular themes mentioned in the statement of the Coalition
on the government report submitted to the Committee on the
Rights of the Child in Geneva in 1995.
4. Topics covered
Working groups are sometimes established to draw up
recommendations, policies and strategies. These are discussed
in the steering group and then forwarded to the government,
Parliament, the media and the broad public, to promote the
full implementation of the convention in their respective
areas.
Topics that have been dealt with since the establishment of
the Coalition, are -
(1) the rights of the child in the reform of parent and child
law;
(2) ecological rights of children;
(3) rights of asylum-seeking children, child soldiers and the
rights of children in war;
(4) rights of children in institutions, for example in the
school system;
(5) rights of needy children and allocation of resources;
(6) rights of disabled children;
(7) rights of children without German passports.
5. Ministerial support
The Ministry for Youth and Family Affairs has financed 1 200
"media suitcases", which were distributed to libraries and
institutions working to promote the convention. A suitcase
consists of a selection of the best materials currently
available in Germany on children's rights, including a video
series on 20 articles of the convention by German TV, music,
books and a public relations manual for teachers, social
workers and professionals, in order to make the convention
widely known.
They have a law which bans violence, especially corporal
punishment, including emotional violence, against children.
There are also interesting programmes, for example a programme
aimed at helping children catch up on what they did not learn
at school, and a programme called "youth in work" for young
people who cannot find jobs. The project endeavours to skill
the youth for specific jobs and then find them employment.
Their definition of children is also interesting. They define
a child as being from birth to 14, and a youth as being 14 to
18.
Their education takes longer than other countries: Preprimary
learning takes place from three to six years. Entrance is at
seven years, and they spend 19 years at school. They therefore
enter university or other tertiary institutions at a fairly
mature age of over 24, and they complete their education at
between 26 and 30 years of age. They therefore enter the job
market at a much later stage.
They have an ombudsperson in each State, looking into
children's issues. These ombudspersons are within the
administration and reports to the administration. Their main
aim is towards ensuring protection of, provision for and
participation towards the best interests of the child. They
ensure that there is a comprehensive approach on children's
issues; for example, when they plan traffic laws, they take
children's needs into account.
6. What seemed to work well
(1) The structured working relationship between the government
and NGOs seemed to bring positive results, and thus the
movement is growing.
(2) Media suitcases are an excellent idea for the
dissemination of information.
(3) Extra programmes for learners who cannot cope.
(4) The longer period of education results in a more mature
and better skilled workforce.
(5) The idea of ombudspersons and the consultative mechanisms
involving children.
7. Lessons learnt
(1) They have access to more funds.
(2) They have a low rate of unemployment.
(3) They do not have infrastructural backlogs.
(4) They do not have a large illiterate population.
(5) They do not have problems of stark poverty.
D. Consultation 2: German Central Institute for Social Matters
1. Introduction
The delegation had consultation and briefing sessions with Mr
Burkhard Wilke, Managing Director of the Institute. The
Institute collects and stores information on a database and
supplies information to those who need it.
2. Budget
The Institute is to a large extent self-sustaining. It is
partly financed by the Ministry of Social Affairs, and 70%
comes from charity organisations, from the interest on fees
derived from auditing charity organisations and from fees paid
by various organisations and individuals for the provision of
information.
3. Focus
The Institute provides services mainly in Berlin. It supplies
information on social issues, leaders in the field, books and
articles on issues of social interest, lists of charity
organisations in the field of environmental and animal
protection and developmental aid.
4. Method of operation
The Institute does not conduct research, but collects research
material from universities and provides it to the clients.
They also gather information from literature, scientific
journals and books.
5. Clients
Information is provided to students and private associations;
the Minister of Labour and the National Coalition on the
Implementation of the Convention of the Child; industry and
commerce; the German Chancellor of Cities; welfare and
Catholic associations; donors and students of social work; and
universities of applied science.
6. Kinds of services provided
(1) Information on CD ROM.
(2) Books.
(3) Monograph.
(4) Magazines.
7. What seemed to work well
(1) Centralised collection and dissemination of information.
(2) Efficient and well-run service.
8. Obstacles
(1) Lack of infrastructure in rural areas would make a centre
of this kind inaccessible to many.
(2) Cost would be a problem.
(3) Poverty would make it difficult for people to pay for
services, hence self-sufficiency would be difficult to
attain.
E. Consultation 3: Basic Programmes of Prevention, Rehabilitation,
Policy and Rights of Disabled People
1. Introduction
The delegation had a consultation and briefing session with Dr
Hartmut Haines, Head of the Section.
The briefing focused on the following:
(1) Accessibility of buildings for disabled people.
(2) Social levy system.
(3) Integration and special schooling system.
(4) Training of disabled people.
(5) Monitoring role of the Section on policy related to
disabled people.
2. Accessibility of buildings
New buildings established, are accessible to disabled people,
but old ones are not. Future planning on the construction and
reconstruction of buildings will take into account the needs
of the disabled.
3. Policy in respect of disabled
(1) To take steps to ensure that disability is reduced through
preventative measures.
(2) To ensure that disabled people are fully integrated into
the mainstream, failing which, they must have special
provisions in order to obtain education and become self-
sufficient.
4. Interesting areas
(1) Social levy system.
(2) Integration and special schooling system.
(3) Training of disabled people.
(4) Employment of disabled people.
A law requires that every employer must employ at least 5%
(previously 6%) disabled people. Should they receive an
application from a disabled person and select a "normal"
person for the job, then, to the extent that they are not
fulfilling the 5% requirement, they have to pay a levy to the
government (for not complying with the quota). Those who do
employ disabled people, but do not have the full quota, pay a
levy of 200 DM. Those who do not employ any disabled people,
however, pay a much higher levy. This levy goes into a fund to
be utilised for the needs of the disabled.
5. What seemed to work well
The levy system was unique and seemed to achieve its goals.
6. Obstacles
Access to buildings, etc, was not well developed.
F. Consultation 4: Head and Assistant Head of Interministerial
Staff at Representative of Federal Government for Affairs
concerning Disabled People
1. Introduction
The delegation had a discussion with Mr Bernhard Schneider,
the Head, and Dr Gerhard Polzin, the Assistant Head. Their
briefings focused on -
(1) the legal framework; and
(2) the integration of disabled persons in the Federal
Republic of Germany.
According to section 10 of the Rehabilitation Harmonisation
Act, medical services for rehabilitation should cover all
areas of support necessary to prevent a threatening
disability, to eliminate a disability, to alleviate it or to
prevent its aggravation.
According to section 100 of the Act, an employer with a
workforce of 16 or more are obliged to ensure that at least 6%
of the workforce comprise severely disabled persons.
This obligation applies not only to the private sector, but
also to public employers. The federal employment service
monitors the fulfilment of this obligation through a system of
compensatory levies payable by employers who fail to meet the
obligation. The revenue from these levies may only be used for
employment promotion and vocational advancement in respect of
severely disabled persons; details are embodied in the
Severely Disabled Persons Compensatory Levy Regulation.
2. Rehabilitation of disabled persons
(1) If a person suffers from a physical, mental or
psychological disability, he or she is entitled to
assistance, regardless of the cause of disability.
(2) Benefits such as medical and financial benefits are
provided, regardless of whether the person receives a
disability pension or not.
(3) Where necessary, medical rehabilitation benefits are
provided through hospitals or special facilities.
(4) Vocational rehabilitation benefits assist to help a
disabled person to keep or get a job.
(5) This also include other forms of employment and vocational
promotion assistance, aimed at making it possible for a
disabled person to find adequate and suitable work in the
job market or in a workshop for disabled people.
3. Vocational youth training centres
These centres work in conjunction with firms in their
respective regions to provide initial vocational training for
young disabled persons who require medical, psychological and
educational assistance as a result of their disability.
Germany has built up a network of 46 vocational youth training
centres with a capacity for some 12 300 trainees. Eight of
these centres with an admission capacity of approximately
2 300 are located in the former East Germany.
4. Vocational retraining centres
The centres also work together with firms in the regions and
provide retraining and further training for disabled adults
who require medical, psychological and similar assistance.
Germany's network of 28 vocational retraining centres has
capacity for 15 000 trainees. Seven of these centres are
located in eastern Germany.
5. Vocational training centres
These centres are special rehabilitation centres for people
with mental disabilities. They aim to help people,
realistically assessing their job prospects so that they can
rejoin the mainstream job market or go on courses for training
or retraining. There are currently eight vocational training
centres, with a total of 457 places.
6. Vocational rehabilitation clinics
These are special rehabilitation clinics for persons with
special disabilities, such as head injuries, paraplegic or
heart diseases. At present, Germany has 17 such clinics, with
2 780 beds, in the western part of the country.
7. Workshops for disabled persons
These workshops offer suitable jobs for persons who are
permanently or temporarily unable to find employment in the
open market, due to the nature or severity of their
disability.
They provide disabled persons with an opportunity to develop,
increase or regain the ability to work productively, and to
earn a wage while doing so. At present, Germany has 640 State-
approved workshops which offer 166 000 jobs; 173 of these
workshops, with approximately 27 000 jobs, are located in
eastern Germany. Disabled persons working in each of these
workshops are covered under Germany's health, accident, long-
term care and pension insurance schemes.
8. Special provision for severely disabled persons
As a severely disabled person, one can claim benefits to
assist in compensating for disadvantages arising from
disability. These benefits are normally contingent on the
existence of specific health conditions, and include -
(1) tax concessions (in particular, the standard allowance for
disabled persons);
(2) free public transport;
(3) reduced vehicle taxes;
(4) special parking facilities;
(5) exemption from radio and television licence fees.
9. Free public transport
If a disability significantly reduces mobility in respect of
road traffic or if a person is incapacitated or deaf, he or
she is entitled to free public transport on production of a
pass that is marked accordingly. This applies to trams, buses,
suburban trains and railway travel, where they are part of an
integrated regional transport system. The subsidiary system of
free transport is limited to second class travel on local
trains within 50 km of the person's home.
10. What worked well
(1) The four-step approach that has been developed, has a lot
of merit. It is clear and precise about the different
categories of disabled persons and who qualifies for what
kind of assistance.
(2) Their youth development programme is also a very good
model.
11. Obstacles
Lack of funds is a problem, but not the major problem.
G. Consultation 5: International Street Children Archive Research
and Counselling Centre
1. Introduction
The delegation had consultation and discussion with Dr Dolly
Conto Obregen, Director of the Centre. The briefing focused on
the number of activities and projects in respect of the main
task of the centre - street children, in Germany as well as in
other locations, such as Africa, Asia, Latin America and
Europe.
2. Background of Centre
The Centre was established in 1984 to document the work
already achieved and the different approaches to homeless
children or street children. Since 1994, the Centre has been
systematically involved in the situation of street children,
both from a research perspective and from a rehabilitative and
service perspective. Since then, the Centre has realised that,
in order to be able to develop lasting solution approaches,
political intervention, international discussions and
networking are needed. At present, the Centre has developed
four projects in respect of street children.
(1) Information desk project
The main focus of this project is the collection of
documentation, project evaluation, publications of any
kind (books, scientific papers and materials from all
media sectors), and to make these available to both
researchers as well as the public. The aim is to
accelerate research concerning street children and to
develop approaches towards a solution for this category
of person.
(2) Research project
Based on the analysis of existing approaches, the Centre
attempts to demonstrate new research fields with this
project, where a network of institutions and individuals
aspire to seek practical solutions.
(3) Counselling project
The findings from the documentation and research
activities on the life of street children has contributed
to the counselling work directed towards the following:
(a) Political institutions, NGOs, scientists,
educational specialists, street workers, teachers,
pupils, students of social science and humanities,
and towards all people who are interested, and
active, in the field.
(b) Offering students a service package to prepare for
practical placements abroad, as well as for
activities in Latin America, Asia, Africa and Europe.
3. Main work activities
The main work activities of the Institute focused on the
following four issues: Documentation; public relations;
training courses and placement; and regional and international
networking.
(1) Documentation
(a) Archives about street children all over the world.
(b) Articles in newspapers and magazines.
(c) Unpublished documents.
(d) CD-Roms, internet publications.
(e) Photo exhibitions.
(2) Public relations
(a) Series of lectures, seminars and video evenings.
(b) Discussions in schools and institutions.
(c) Specialised conferences and benefit events.
(3) Training course
(a) Street workers/educational specialists.
(b) Methodological planning of projects.
(c) Monitoring and controlling.
(d) Teachers as multipliers.
(4) Placement
(a) Preparation of students for practical placement
abroad.
(b) Practical placement in Africa, Asia, Latin America
and Europe.
(5) Regional and international networking
(a) Exchange of experiences and reinforcement of
dialogue.
(b) Improvement of scientific co-operation.
(c) Intercultural encounters.
4. What worked well
(1) The research and rehabilitation programmes are good.
(2) Focus on the disabled is also good.
5. Obstacles
Placement of children abroad is not such a good idea.
H. Consultation 6: Parliamentary State Secretary and Deputy Head of
Division of Children and Youth Policy
1. Introduction
Dr Edith Niehuis, the Parliamentary State Secretary, and Mr
Jochen Weitzel, Deputy Head of the Division, briefed the
delegation on the German governmental policy and programme in
respect of children and youth.
2. Child and youth policy
The Federal Republic of Germany has a wide-ranging and
socially underpinned system of child and youth services. Child
and youth services describe the area of social work that
serves to promote the development of young people outside
school.
3. Youth reports
Of particular importance to the child and youth policy are the
youth reports on the situation of young people and the welfare
achievements of child and youth services, which the federal
government has to present to the Bundestag and Bundesrat in
each parliamentary term. Apart from assessing and analysing
the current situation, the reports contain proposals on
further developing child and youth services, and each third
report should provide an overview of the overall situation in
respect of child and youth services.
The youth report have, inter alia, two important functions.
These are to make the public aware of the situation of young
people, and to encourage all spheres of society to take on
activities which will promote the interests of children and
young people.
As already mentioned, child and youth policy cuts across many
different policy areas. Family reports are presented in the
family policy area. The nine youth reports and four family
reports which have appeared to date, document studies which
describe in detail the situation and living conditions of
children, young people and families in Germany. These reports
also have a considerable impact on the legislative process on
children and youth, on family policy, and on specific
political measures.
4. What worked well
(1) Media protection is well-run.
(2) Youth programmes are good.
5. Obstacles
Funding.
6. Principle of subsidiary bodies responsible for child and youth
services agencies
One of the main features of child and youth services is the
activities of voluntary and statutory bodies. NGOs make a
commitment. In the field of youth work, day care for children
and residential care, the voluntary sector provides most
services and facilities.
7. Statutory youth services
Statutory youth services represent another dimension of the
child and youth services system. Together with the voluntary
youth services, they implement the Child and Youth Service Act
at three levels:
(1) Federal level
The Federal Ministry for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens,
Women and Youth is responsible for preparing legislation
and financing measures of national importance and
programmes intended to serve as a model for the child and
youth plan of the federation.
(2) Local self-government level
They have to legislate for their own areas. Child and
youth policies are developed by voluntary organisations
within the parameters of the UN Convention and the
Federal Act on Child and Youth Services.
(3) State level
Programmes for child and youth care have to be drafted
for the development of youth.
8. Voluntary services structure at three levels
(1) National level (at this level models for projects are
developed).
(2) State or provincial level.
(3) Local or municipal level.
In addition, to ensure uniformity and cross-border uniformity,
the federal government has now appointed a Committee of State
Secretariat, and it reports to the Youth Ministry. In
Parliament, they also have a youth commission, comprising all
parties. There are youth offices responsible for advisory, co-
ordinating and regional planning and further training
functions.
9. Local child and youth services agencies
The main burden of statutory youth services work falls on
youth offices in districts and in towns which are
administrative districts in their own right.
The Child and Youth Services Act entrusts them with all
decisions relating to individual welfare cases and with
responsibility for curatorship by the youth office and
guardianship.
10. Participation by young people
Youth participation in shaping youth services is not merely a
procedural requirement, but also an essential element for the
effectiveness of the service itself. The Child and Youth
Service Act lays down as a basic principle that children and
young people are to be involved, in line with their level of
development, in all decisions concerning them, taken by the
statutory youth services bodies.
According to this Act, children and youths must be informed in
an appropriate manner of their rights in administrative
proceedings and in proceedings before the guardianship court
and the administrative court (s8 - Child and Youth Services
Act). Furthermore, the law expressly provides for the
participation of children or young people in the selection of
an institution or foster home within the scope of socio-
educational provision outside the family (s36 - Child and
Youth Services Act).
11. Media and protection of young persons
Section 6 of the Act regulates the dissemination of writings
harmful to young persons. It sets out cases where the media
must be regarded as a source of danger to the young. Among
media re[resentatives likely to cause serious harm to young
persons, are those who -
(1) are racist;
(2) deny the holocaust;
(3) glorify violence;
(4) play down violence;
(5) represent violence in a manner which violates human
dignity, for instance child pornography.
Media members putting young persons seriously at risk are
indexed by law. In other words, there are restrictions on
making their work available.
12. Laws relevant to children and youths
In addition to the basic provisions, there are many general
laws such as the German Civil Code, the German Penal Code, the
Federal Social Assistance Act and the Employment Promotion
Act, which are of particular significance to children, young
people and families. There are also laws which deal
exclusively with the specific problems of children and young
people, for example the -
(1) Juvenile Court Act;
(2) Protection of Young Persons at Work Act;
(3) Promotion of the Voluntary Social Services Year Act;
(4) Promotion of the Voluntary Ecological Service Year Act;
(5) Vocational Training Act;
(6) Vocational Training Assistance through Planning and
Research Act;
(7) Adoption Procedures and Implementation Act;
(8) Federal Education Grants Act;
(9) Child and Youth Services Act.
13. What worked well
(1) The string of laws are good.
(2) They are able to tackle the aftermath of HIV/AIDS.
I. Guided tours
The delegation went on three guided tours of historic
significance.
1. House of Wannsee Conference
Introduction
In this house, on 20 January 1942, 14 top officials of the
ministerial bureaucracy and the SS, led by SS Obergruppen-
führer Reinhard Heydrich, chief of the Reich Security Main
Office, discussed the organisational implementation of the
decision to deport to the East and murder the Jews of Europe.
The meeting was called the "Wannsee Conference". The summary
of the Conference, prepared by Adolf Eichmann, was found in
1947 in the files of the German Foreign Office.
On the 50th anniversary of the Conference, 20 January 1992, a
memorial and education centre was opened in the villa. The
house now has three sections:
(1) Permanent exhibit
This exhibits documents not only the conference, but also
its history, starting in 1933, and its conseguences until
1945. it provides basic information on the entire process
of segregation, persecution, deportation and murder of
European Jews. A separate section deals with the history
of the building.
The photographs used, were almost without exception from
officials, as well as a few private German sources, and
were unpublished at the time. Exceptions were German
Jewish activities after 1933, taken by Jewish press
photographers, and the liberation of the concentration
camps in 1945, shot by Allied cameramen.
(2) Educational section
This section offers youth and adult group study days or
longer seminars geared towards specific interests and
professions, in or out of school. A wide range of
subjects is offered.
(3) Mediotek
This contains the standard academic literature, fiction
and eye-witness reports on Nazi history, literature on
Jewish history, anti-Semitism, racism and neo-Nazism,
reference works, a document collection on microfilm and
microfiche, a picture and sound archive, films and
videos. These materials are available for use on the
premises by seminar participants and individual visitors.
2. Sachsenhausen former concentration camp
The visit revealed the horrors of Nazi rule and the inhuman
conditions under which prisoners were forced to live.
3. Gandhi to Walesa Museum
This Museum was housed in a building used as an office at the
Check Point Charlie Border Post. It is dedicated to non-
violence action and non-violent struggle for human rights. It
is a comprehensive collection of information, photographs and
material in respect of six different non-violent struggles
around the world.
It is of importance to note that South Africa and Germany have
certain common features:
(1) There are similarities in both situations, in that both
are transforming and grappling with issues of poverty,
unemployment, racism and degradation.
(2) Germany has more resources, and their problem is not as
huge as ours.
(3) They are also integrating two States and creating new
systems and policies in terms of international best
practice.
The tour therefore has revealed many lessons of importance for
South Africa.
J. Recommendations
1. To SA National Youth Commission
(1) Germany has access to more funds than we do. They have a
low rate of unemployment, they do not have a major
infrastructural backlog, they do not have a large rate of
illiteracy and they do not have as much poverty as South
Africa.
The Committee recommends that the strategy of media
suitcases, comprising publications on children's rights
made available to the youth, be studied closely with a
view to copying it.
(2) Their vocational youth training centres and vocational
retraining centres are excellent methods of passing on
skills to young people. It may be a good programme to
copy.
(3) Their programme of youth reports to be presented to
Parliament each term, with proposals for further
development and giving an overview of the situation of
youth and children, is an excellent method of constant
review and planning. These reports are also based on a
holistic approach. For example, there were nine youth
reports and four family reports during the Committee's
visit, and those reports helped when looking at
legislation and policy issues.
The Committee recommends that the above be investigated
further.
2. To Department of Social Development
(1) They have a comprehensive system of social assistance,
which needs to be studied to help our planning for a
comprehensive social assistance system. Apart from social
assistance, they offer benefits to all disabled persons,
whether these persons receive social assistance or not.
There is a system of tax concessions, free public
transport, reduced vehicle taxes, special parking
facilities and exemption from radio and television
licences.
The Committee recommends that the above be investigated
further.
(2) They have a clear policy in four areas of assistance for
the disabled:
(a) Social assistance for persons suffering from
physical, mental or psychological disability,
regardless of the cause of disability.
(b) Medical and rehabilitative benefits are provided for
anyone who needs it, regardless of whether the person
receives a disability grant or not.
(c) Education in an open school as well as special
schools geared towards vocational rehabilitation is
provided for those who are trainable and may be able
to work. They also get assistance to enable them to
keep a job.
(d) For those who can compete in the open market, there
is a levy system to encourage employers to employ and
promote them.
The levy system is legislated, and says that at least
5% of the staff of every employer must be disabled.
If an employer receives an application for a job and
a non-disabled person is selected, then, to the
extent that the 5% requirement is not met, that
employer has to pay a levy to the government.
Employers who do not employ any disabled persons, pay
a higher levy than those who employ some but have not
fulfilled their quota. The money goes into a fund to
be used for the needs of the disabled.
The Committee recommends that the above be investigated
further.
(3) Legislation and policy are designed to apply at national,
provincial and local government level. There are problems
in ensuring uniformity while allowing for local
peculiarities.
The Committee recommends that this interesting area be
studied further by those looking at comprehensive child
and youth legislation and policy.
(4) The Committee also recommends that the German control over
the media in the interest of children also be studied
further, in order to look at openness against a degree of
censorship.
3. To Department of Education
(1) The introduction of vocational training for young people
and the relationship between training centres and
employers, factories and industries make the training
relevant and ensures that students are trained for the
work they intend to do. This is working well and helps to
focus on skills development.
(2) They have a longer period of schooling, which ensures that
workers are more mature and better able to handle the
stresses and strains of work.
(3) Their efforts to integrate disabled children into the main
stream of education, while also ensuring that some
specialised schools are retained, is an experience from
which we can learn in our education transformation
process.
The Committee recommends that the above be investigated
further.
4. To Department of Labour
(1) The co-operation between the Department of Labour and the
education sector in vocational training is worth copying.
(2) The levy system to encourage employers to employ disabled
people is also an important system to further study, with
a view to implementation.
The Committee recommends that the above be investigated
further.
5. To Office of Deputy President
Policies and legislation compiled and applied by the Germans
have many important features, as outlined above.
The Committee recommends that these be studied further in
order to see what is already in place in our country, what we
still need to do and how we can adapt some into our own
legislative and policy framework.
6. To Joint Monitoring Committee
(1) The Germans have a conference with NGOs and groups of
children and youths to discuss issues identified by them
and to look at ways of overcoming problems. Thus they can
identify what is happening on the ground and what the
feeling is, and then come up with suggestions. These are
submitted to the Ministers, to look at possible
legislation or policy shifts. This is a good way of
involving the sector in a constructive way and in
ensuring that laws and policies are not static, but
continually change to provide for new needs.
(2) They also have a unique central research and resource
bank, where material on all aspects of development issues
can be found. Such a facility can assist in ensuring that
there is a flow of information and that people do not
repeat what has been tried previously, but are enriched
by those previous experiences.
The Committee recommends that the above be investigated
further.
7. To Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology
(1) Three museums were visited, and each was unique in its
historic and comprehensive research content.
Interestingly, they were still looking for further
history and artifacts. Each also had a specific
educational content, and encouraged schools, universities
and communities to participate in seminars and
discussions. Issues such as poverty, violence,
unemployment, racism and degradation are depicted in the
exhibitions and then discussed. Important lessons on how
to preserve, collect, annotate and disseminate
information, can be learnt from these museums.
(2) South Africa's history of wars, racism, apartheid, the
freedom struggle, peaceful negotiations and accommodation
of diversities are important lessons for posterity. If
collected, preserved and annotated comprehensively, it
can become an important message for the international
community.
The Committee recommends that the above be investigated
further.
K. Conclusion
The Committee delegation was well received by their German
counterparts at all the institutions and federal ministries. The
study tour was rich in briefing sessions, to enable us to compare
South African experiences with those of the Federal Republic of
Germany.
The German social levy system, the training and employment of
disabled persons and the youth services programmes served as good
examples for our country, with a view to improving the quality of
life and status of our children, youth and disabled persons.
Report to be considered.