WEDNESDAY, 24 OCTOBER 2001
                                ____

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

   (a)  realise that it is not the sole repository of political wisdom;
       and


   (b)  respect and not pay lip service to multi-party democracy.

   (a)  die Minister van Binnelandse Sake, dr Buthelezi, 'n verklaring
       van 64 paragrawe uitgereik het waarin hy aandui dat die
       werksverhouding tussen hom en sy Direkteur-generaal, mnr Billy
       Masetlha, onherstelbaar verbrokkel het;


   (b)  die direkteur-generaal by verskeie geleenthede nie die opdragte
       van die Minister uitgevoer het nie;


   (c)  die direkteur-generaal nie oor 'n geldige en wettige
       dienskontrak beskik nie;


   (d)  die huidige krisis die werksvermoë van die departement ernstig
       kniehalter; en
   (e)  die beginsel erken word dat 'n minister van 'n staatsdepartement
       bygestaan word deur 'n rekenpligtige beampte in wie hy of sy
       vertroue het; en

   (a)  the Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Buthelezi, has issued a 64-
       paragraph statement in which he indicates that the working
       relationship between him and his Director-General, Mr Billy
       Masetlha, has broken down irreparably;


   (b)  the Director-General has, on various occasions, not carried out
       the instructions of the Minister;


   (c)  the Director-General does not have a valid and legal employment
       contract;


   (d)  the current crisis is seriously hampering the department's
       ability to work; and


   (e)  it is a recognised principle that a Minister of a state
       department is assisted by an accounting officer in whom he or
       she has confidence; and

   (a)  embarrass the President at official functions;


   (b)  build up arrear service accounts with their local authorities
       and therefore lead the nonpayment culture;


   (c)  completely ignore the Masakhane pledge which Members of
       Parliament signed wherein they undertook to pay local authority
       accounts; and


   (d)  seemingly allow the illegal sale of liquor from properties which
       they manage.

   (a)  a title deed handover ceremony to the Sibonelo community in
       Elandshoek, Mpumalanga, was held on 6 October 2001; and


   (b)  the MEC for Housing and Land Administration, the hon Gininda,
       handed over 200 hectares of land to settle 116 rural farm
       workers;

   (a)  our roads are badly maintained owing to a lack of funds;


   (b)  over 1 000 km of fencing along national roads has been stolen,
       increasing the hazard of animals on these roads; and


   (c)  the state has an obligation with respect to public safety on
       roads arising from negligent administration;

   (a)  the Arrive Alive campaign will not achieve its goals; and


   (b)  the state will face financial claims as a result of deaths due
       to bad roads.

   (a)  Gold Fields has offered Africa Rainbow Minerals (ARM)-Harmony a
       joint venture in an exclusive option to negotiate for two of its
       Free State mines; and
   (b)  this offer significantly boosts ARM-Harmony joint venture
       chances of securing Anglo-Gold's Free State assets;

   (a)  'n derde van die riviermondings in Suid-Afrika in 'n swak
       toestand verkeer weens onoordeelkundige ontwikkeling en swak
       bestuur;


   (b)  die 270 riviermondings in Suid-Afrika ekonomies sowel as
       ekologies van die uiterste belang is; en


   (c)  verdere navorsing dringend noodsaaklik is;

   (a)  die Departement van Omgewingsake en Toerisme onmiddellik aandag
       aan hierdie probleem moet gee; en


   (b)  sodanige aandag ook uitgebrei moet word om die besoedeling van
       riviere in die algemeen te bekamp; en

   (a)  one third of South Africa's river mouths are in a bad state
       because of injudicious development and poor management;


   (b)  South Africa's 270 river mouths are, economically as well as
       ecologically, of the utmost importance; and


   (c)  further research is urgently needed;

   (a)  the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism should pay
       immediate attention to this problem; and


   (b)  such attention should also be extended to combat the pollution
       of rivers in general; and

   (a)  a group of parents whose children died in the Israel/Palestine
       conflict arrived in South Africa;


   (b)  this group is representative of parents who lost loved ones on
       both sides of the conflicting parties; and


   (c)  in its quest to prevent further suffering and loss of life,
       particularly by children, this group has come to seek advice
       from former President Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond
       Tutu;

   (a)  this move represents the support for and confidence the
       international community has in our peaceful model for change;
       and
   (b)  what South Africa achieved through negotiations serves as an
       inspiration for people in conflict situations throughout the
       world; and

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

 Copies of the memoranda on the objects of the following Bills (the
 Bills were presented to the National Assembly by the Portfolio
 Committee on Finance on 3 October 2001) can now be obtained from the
 Clerk of the Papers or the Committee Section of Parliament:


 (i)    Financial Intelligence Centre Bill [B 1B - 2001] (National
       Assembly - sec 75);


 (ii)   Pension Funds Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2001] (National
       Assembly - sec 75).


 The memoranda are also available on Parliament's website at
 "http://www.parliament.gov.za/bills/2001/memo1.htm" and
 "http://www.parliament.gov.za/bills/2001/memo2.htm", respectively.

 (1)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     Universal Service Agency and the Universal Service Fund for 1999-
     2000 [RP 137-2001].


 (2)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     Disaster Relief Fund for 2000-2001 [RP 133-2001].


 (3)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     National Supplies Procurement Fund for 2000-2001 [RP 144-2001].


 (4)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     National Electricity Regulator Fund for 1997-98, 1998-99 and 1999-
     2000 [RP 152-2001].

 (1)    Report of the Certification Council for Technikon Education for
     the period 1 April 2001 to 31 August 2001 [RP 175-2001].


 (2)    Government Notice Number 415 published in the Government Gazette
     No 22281 dated 18 May 2001, National Policy regarding Further
     Education and Training Programme: Approval of adjustments to the
     Economic Higher and Standard Grade Core Syllabi for Grade 12, made
     in terms of the National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of
     1996).


 (3)    Government Notice Number 416 published in the Government Gazette
     No 22281 dated 18 May 2001, Approval of an amendment to the
     aggregate for Senior Certificate candidates offering technical
     college instructional offerings as part of their programmes, made
     in terms of the National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of
     1996).


 (4)    Government Notice Number 417 published in the Government Gazette
     No 22281 dated 18 May 2001, National Policy regarding Further
     Education and Training Programme: Approval of the drafting and the
     documentation of National Education Policy regarding the Gauteng
     Youth College Programme, made in terms of the National Education
     Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).


 (5)    Government Notice No 472 published in the Government Gazette No
     22334 dated 29 May 2001, Call for nomination to fill a vacancy in
     the South African Qualifications Authority caused by the
     resignation of the member representing the Adult Basic Education
     and Training Sector, made in terms of section 4(3)(l) of the South
     African Qualifications Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).


 (6)    Government Notice No 485 published in the Government Gazette No
     22345 dated 1 June 2001, Call for nomination to fill a vacancy in
     the South African Qualifications Authority caused by the
     resignation of the member from the National Organisations
     Representing Colleges other than teachers and technical colleges,
     made in terms of section 4(3)(l) of the South African
     Qualifications Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).


 (7)    Government Notice No 541 published in the Government Gazette No
     22374 dated 13 June 2001, Appointment of a replacement to serve as
     a member of the South African Qualifications Authority, made in
     terms of section 4(4) of the South African Qualifications
     Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).


 (8)    Government Notice No 650 published in the Government Gazette No
     22471 dated 12 July 2001, A focused study of the development of
     the National Qualifications Framework with the aim of streamlining
     its implementation, made in terms of the South African
     Qualifications Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).


 (9)    Government Notice No 703 published in the Government Gazette No
     22524 dated 27 July 2001, National Policy regarding Special Needs
     Education: Approval of Education White Paper 6, Special Needs
     Education: Building an inclusive education and training system,
     made in terms of section 3(4)(l) and (o) of National Education
     Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).

 Report and Financial Statements of Telkom Limited for 2000-2001.

 Report to be considered. 4.    Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on the Births and
 Deaths Registration Amendment Bill [B 53 - 2001] (National Assembly -
 sec 75), dated 23 October 2001:


     The Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, having considered the
     subject of the Births and Deaths Registration Amendment Bill [B 53
     - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and
     classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill,
     reports the Bill without amendment.

 Report to be considered.

 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered and
 examined various Reports of the Auditor-General on the Multiparty
 Negotiation Process: Conference Facilities at World Trade Centre (see
 Schedule in [RP 132-99], p 15), and certain papers referred to it,
 reports as follows:


 A.     Multiparty negotiation process: Conference facilities at World
     Trade Centre (WTC)
     (Par 3.1.1, page 2 & par 3.2, page 4) [RP 132-99]


     1. The non-compliance with procurement and other regulations for
          the leasing of conference facilities at the WTC has been a
          matter under examination by the Committee over a number of
          years. Since 1993 the Auditor-General has been reporting on
          the matter, and in 1995 he reported that, owing to the
          unavailability of supporting vouchers and the absence of a
          written agreement, as well as the inability of the supplier
          and the Department to furnish satisfactory explanations and/or
          alternative audit evidence, he could not express an opinion on
          the reasonableness of the expenditure totalling R66 227 648.
          If ex post facto approval from the State Tender Board could
          not be obtained, the expenditure would be regarded as
          unauthorised.


     2. In May 1995 the Committee heard evidence from the former
          Director-General and other officials. The Committee noted that
          time constraints placed on the Department to activate the
          multiparty conference as soon as possible, had complicated the
          normal tendering process and, to some degree, the normal
          entering into of a detailed lease agreement.


          However, it was with concern that the Committee learned that
          only verbal agreements had been entered into between the
          responsible Chief Director and the management of the WTC.


     3. In response to a recommendation by the Committee, the Minister
          of Constitutional Development recommended in 1998 that the
          matter be referred to the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) for
          investigation and adjudication of justifiable civil disputes
          emanating from such an investigation.


     4. In February 2000, the Committee heard evidence from the SIU,
          during which it was reported that they could not proceed with
          the matter, as their legal advisers were of the opinion that
          the claim had prescribed. However, the SIU also concluded that
          amounts paid by the Department for the leasing of the WTC were
          reasonable and fair, based on oral and documentary evidence
          collected (mainly related to unavailability of comparable
          facilities, the necessity for alterations, owing to certain
          political parties joining at later stages of the negotiation
          process, as well as comparisons with later costs for
          accommodation of the Transitional Executive Council).


          Notwithstanding the above, the SIU concluded that, had the
          Department taken action sooner, it would have been entitled to
          a claim based on proper tender procedures not being followed,
          although the WTC would have had a counter-claim for services
          rendered to an equal amount, if not more.


          This clearly demonstrates to the Committee the need for proper
          procurement practices, and that in this case the least the
          responsible departmental official and the Director-General
          should have ensured, was that some form of written agreement
          should have been entered into to prevent later disputes and
          uncertainties.


          The Committee reiterates its concern, expressed at all its
          previous hearings on this matter, at the failure of the former
          financial official and the former Director-General to comply
          with applicable requirements and prescripts to enter into a
          written agreement, clearly failing to comply with requirements
          of proper financial control and management.


          The Committee is of the view that the reasons of exceptional
          circumstances offered by the relevant officials as
          justification for departure from applicable procedures were
          not sufficiently compelling to convince the Committee that
          that departure was justifiable. This disregard for procedures
          has resulted in the legislature being confronted with an
          embarrassing and unresolved state of affairs, to which it must
          respond. The Committee was further concerned that the former
          Director-General took no initiative or active steps to ensure
          that disciplinary action, where appropriate, was taken against
          the Chief Director at the time.
     5. The Auditor-General, in the meanwhile, confirmed the amount of
          R66 227 648 as unauthorised in terms of section 33(1)(c) and
          (d) of the Exchequer Act. The Parliamentary Law Advisers were
          requested to indicate whether any claim by the Department
          against the WTC could be substantiated, in view of the
          Prescription Act. In August 2001, they confirmed that the
          claim had prescribed.


          The Committee notes with concern that, despite the efforts of
          all the role-players concerned in investigating this matter to
          obtain information to ascertain the full amount of the
          possible claim, the frustration of these efforts contributed
          to the time lag that resulted in the eventual prescription.


     6. The Committee finds itself in an insufferable and unacceptable
          position: A saga of inefficiency and procrastination that may
          have caused losses to the State and the taxpayer, confronts
          the legislature.  Although it cannot be proved and, given that
          the claim had prescribed, it would not be cost-effective to
          calculate the exact amount, the Committee is in a position
          where the extent of wasteful expenditure or losses cannot be
          accurately ascertained. The extent to which the State received
          full value for the expenditure of R66 227 648 therefore
          remains unclear.


     7. With respect to the future, the Committee is encouraged by the
          new control framework introduced by the PFMA, which provides
          the Committee with some assurance that similar incidents will
          be limited, and, should they occur, they will be covered by a
          number of the provisions of that Act. The PFMA requires
          accounting officers to ensure cost-effective and competitive
          procurement practices, as well as being responsible for the
          efficient, effective, economical and transparent use of the
          resources of the Department. In addition, the accounting
          officer is responsible for taking appropriate steps to prevent
          irregular and wasteful expenditure, which the WTC expenditure
          clearly seemed to have been. Accounting officers are now also
          responsible, upon the discovery of any irregular or wasteful
          expenditure, for taking effective and appropriate disciplinary
          steps against responsible officials.


          The Committee is not prepared to condone shoddy management in
          future, and will insist that relevant measures be applied and
          that the law be applied to protect the public purse. In
          addition, it expects accounting officers as custodians of
          public funds to be pro-active in not only preventing such
          incidents, but also immediately acting upon the discovery of
          such instances.


     8. It is only in view of the legal position indicated above that
          the Committee recommends that the expenditure be validated and
          written off in terms of the relevant legislation.


          In the light of the SIU's findings and that of the
          Parliamentary Law Advisers, the Committee is reluctantly
          compelled to ask Parliament to bring this matter to a close by
          recommending authorisation of this substantial amount, as
          enumerated. However, the Committee wants to highlight the
          following issues, so that other government departments may
          draw lessons from them:


          (a) Verbal agreements are susceptible to manipulation. All
              agreements/contracts must be in writing and duly signed.


          (b) No expenditure should be permitted without supporting
              vouchers.


          (c) Directors-General must take timeous disciplinary action
              against subordinates where proper procurement practices
              are not followed. Inefficiency and malpractices resulting
              in wasteful expenditure causing losses to the State are
              punishable in terms of the PFMA.


 B.     Unauthorised expenditure of R217 215,05
     (Par 3.1.2(c), page 4) [RP 132-99]


     The Committee took note of the finding of an independent
     consultant, appointed by the Director-General to investigate the
     above-mentioned amount, that no official could be held responsible
     for the unauthorised expenditure relating to the extension of a
     tender for consultancy services for RDP projects, resulting in the
     contract having been exceeded by the aforementioned amount. The
     Committee also took note that the Auditor-General concurred with
     the conclusions of the aforementioned investigation by the
     independent consultant.


     The Committee therefore recommends that the unauthorised
     expenditure of R217 215,05 be approved by Parliament.


 Report to be considered.

 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having heard and considered
 evidence on the Report of the Auditor-General on the findings
 identified during an audit of the Salary Bill at national and
 provincial departments [RP 163-2000] (the Salary Bill), reports as
 follows:


 A.     Background


     An audit on the Salary Bill to identify possible fictitious
     beneficiaries, who had been paid salaries by the government, was
     conducted at the undermentioned national departments and
     provincial administrations:


     1. National departments


          Correctional Services
          Justice
          South African Police Service


     2. Provincial administrations


          Eastern Cape
          Gauteng
          KwaZulu-Natal
          Mpumalanga
          Northern Province
          North West


 B.     Findings


     1.  The National Treasury indicated that it is responsible for
          ensuring that the Personnel and Salary System (PERSAL) is
          properly maintained, and  it also provides some operational
          training. It is, however, the responsibility of the various
          departments to keep PERSAL updated. The Treasury assured the
          Committee that the PERSAL section has regular workshops and is
          currently concentrating on the provinces to make them aware of
          the functions and exception reports available on PERSAL.


          The Committee therefore recommends that the National Treasury:


          (a) ensure that departments understand the value of the
              provided management information, that the system is used
              optimally and that all departments are informed of all
              available exception reports on PERSAL as well as of the
              relevance thereof to user departments;


          (b) stress the need to follow up exception reports as well as
              the responsibility of accounting officers in this regard;


          (c) through the State Information Technology Agency (SITA),
              monitor the exceptions, and in instances where
              departments did not take action, follow these up with the
              accounting officers; and


          (d) extend its workshops regarding PERSAL to also include all
              provinces.


     2. It also came to the attention of the Committee that significant
          progress has been made in rectifying certain problems
          identified in the Report of the Auditor-General:


          (a) The National Treasury indicated that they have installed
              the necessary software to allow them to check for
              duplicate/multiple appointments between mainframes. A
              facility has also been created whereby a person now
              retains his or her PERSAL number, even if he or she moves
              between departments.


              Although the National Treasury has taken some rectifying
              steps, the Committee recommends that it monitor multiple
              appointments to ensure that such appointments do not take
              place in future.


          (b) The Committee is satisfied with the progress made by the
              National Treasury in decreasing the number of computer-
              generated and invalid identity numbers. It was brought to
              the attention of the departments that this type of ID
              numbers should be limited and should not be standard
              practice. It is purely by exception that a person should
              get such an ID number, rather than an ID number issued by
              the Department of Home Affairs.


              The Committee recommends that the National Treasury
              monitor computer-generated ID numbers to ensure that
              accounting officers take action to reduce such cases, and
              computer-generated ID numbers only be applicable to non-
              RSA citizens.


          (c) Furthermore, the Department of Public Service and
              Administration (the DPSA) indicated that the problem
              regarding staff members over the age of 65 that are still
              employed, mainly occurs in the Eastern Cape, where the
              former Ciskei and Transkei kept poor records, to the
              extent that there were disputes about dates of
              appointment. The DPSA indicated that the matter would be
              resolved soon, and the Committee is encouraged by the
              fact that an instruction to terminate services has been
              issued in certain cases.


              Nevertheless, the Committee recommends that the DPSA
              follow up its instruction to terminate the services of
              permanent staff members over the age of 65, and report
              back to the Committee by 30 November 2001.


     3. The Committee further noted the following:


          (a) Payments to deceased staff members and salary payments are
              not cancelled timeously after termination of service, due
              to a lack of interface between PERSAL data, data on
              deceased persons according to the Department of Home
              Affairs and the Government Employees' Pension Fund
              (GEPF).


              The Committee therefore recommends that the National
              Treasury complete the interface of both the Department of
              Home Affairs and the GEPF, include it as a standard
              exception report on PERSAL, and inform all accounting
              officers of the availability thereof.


          (b) State guarantees of staff members who had resigned, were
              not always redeemed or recovered. The Committee noted the
              corrective steps taken by the DPSA - a policy decision
              has been taken to stop this practice, so as to move
              towards a situation where pension fund accounts of
              employees can be used for this purpose.


              The Committee recommends that the DPSA implement the
              policy regarding state guarantees wherever the pension
              funds of employees can be used for this purpose. The DPSA
              must also ensure that no further state guarantees are
              issued.


          (c) Slow progress has been made with regard to the
              implementation of the recommendations of the White
              Commission. Although the DPSA indicated that, at this
              stage, the issue is a legal matter on which they need to
              be advised, the Committee recommends that the DPSA report
              back by 30 November 2001 regarding the implementation of
              the recommendations of the White Commission.


 Report to be considered.