TUESDAY, 16 OCTOBER 2001 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 15:11.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr K D S DURR: Mr Chairman, I will move at the next sitting of this House:

That the Council -

(1) views with alarm the steps taken on 15 October by President Robert Mugabe to return his country to a socialist-styled command economy; (2) notes that the inevitable consequence of the price freezes and unrealistic wage increases announced on 15 October will be -

   (a)  growing food shortages;


   (b)   additional  business  closures  and  further  cuts  in  primary
       production of food; and


   (c)  job losses and hyperinflation;

(3) further notes that these measures, coming as they do in addition to the illegal commercial farm occupations, with some 350 000 farmworkers already displaced, are likely to compound the growing economic chaos in that country; and

(4) calls upon the South African Government to begin establishing reconstruction plans and to initiate a large international redevelopment trust fund, perhaps under the umbrella of the Commonwealth Secretariat, to assist in stabilising that neighbouring country in the inevitable post-Mugabe period, once the current madness has run its course.

Mev J WITBOOI: Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Raad gaan voorstel:

Dat die Raad -

(1) kennis neem van die onreg wat die Afrikaanse en ander inheemse taalgemeenskappe aangedoen is deur die eentalige sensusopname, wat net in Engels gedoen word;

(2) van mening is dat dit onverklaarbaar en onaanvaarbaar is dat die taaldiversiteit en die grondwetlike verpligting wat op die staat rus deur die departement verantwoordelik vir statistiekdienste geïgnoreer is;

(3) voorts die mening uitspreek dat die korrektheid van die sensusopname as gevolg hiervan onder verdenking sal wees;

(4) kennis neem dat die hele aangeleentheid by Pansat gerapporteer is, met die versoek dat hulle dringend ingryp en die situasie probeer red; en

(5) die betrokke Minister versoek om in hierdie verband antwoorde aan ons te verstrek. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mrs J WITBOOI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) takes note of the injustice being done to the Afrikaans and other indigenous language communities as a result of the unilingual census survey being conducted in English only;

(2) is of the opinion that it is inexplicable and unacceptable that the language diversity and the constitutional obligation, which rests on the state, is being ignored by the department responsible for statistical services;

(3) furthermore expresses the opinion that the correctness of the census survey will come under suspicion as a result of this;

(4) takes note that the entire matter has been reported to PanSALB, with the request that they intervene immediately to try and rescue the situation; and

(5) requests the Minister concerned to provide us with answers in this regard.]

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) notes that the street renaming debacle in the Western Cape has taken a new twist that threatens to destroy the political alliance between the DP and the New NP;

(2) further notes that the ANC has warned from the very beginning that any alliance aimed at perpetuating past privileges and the exclusion of African people in the Western Cape is doomed to fail;

(3) believes the singling out of Peter Marais proves that the mayor is like a pawn in a much bigger struggle;

(4) further believes that this is a struggle in which the DP, which has proved itself to be an irredeemable representative of apartheid privileges and which has been supported by very few voters in the province, is trying to steal control of the Western Cape at the expense of the poor and marginalised African and coloured majority in the province;

(5) acknowledges the negative impact which the irreconcilable differences within the Democratic Alliance have on the implementation of national policy and programmes aimed at improving the quality of life of people in the province; and

(6) therefore calls on the New NP to reconsider its alliance with the DP because this represents the best hope for the poor and marginalised majority in the Western Cape …

[Time expired.]

   HIV/AIDS EDUCATION UNIT IN DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with appreciation the formation of the HIV/Aids education structure in the Department of Correctional Services, as their strategy to fight HIV/Aids;

(2) further notes that the creation of this structure is for promotive and preventive measures in the fight against the HIV/Aids pandemic;

(3) notes that, since the inauguration of this unit, more prisoners have come forward for blood testing and counselling; and

(4) applauds the department for introducing educational measures for prisoners that will eventually lessen the spread of infection within the prison.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

AWARD OF HONORARY DOCTORATE TO DEPUTY PRESIDENT BY UNIVERSITY OF THE NORTH

                         (Draft Resolution) Ms S N NTLABATI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with pride the conferring of an honorary doctorate on Deputy President Jacob Zuma by the University of the North;

(2) further notes that with this honour, Deputy President Zuma’s name is added to an eminent list which already bears the names of African luminaries such as the late comrades Oliver Tambo and Julius Nyerere as well as former President Nelson Mandela;

(3) believes this award is an acknowledgement of the role played by the Deputy President in highlighting the importance of education in building a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society; and

(4) further believes that the conferral of this award will inspire others to pursue the same moral and intellectual virtues.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

              SIGNING OF PUBLIC SERVICE WAGE AGREEMENT

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr T RALANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) welcomes the signing of the wage agreement between the Government and the public service sector unions;

(2) expresses its relief that the signing has averted a potentially damaging strike of public servants that would have had severe consequences for the upcoming matric exams in particular and service delivery in general; (3) commends the Minister for the Public Service and Administration, her department and staff as well as trade union representatives for the amicable manner in which they have resolved the wage dispute; and

(4) believes the agreement confirms the commitment of our ANC Government as well as trade unions to work together in partnership to implement a better deal for South African workers.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

              COMMEMORATION OF PRESIDENT SAMORA MACHEL

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr T S SETONA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the successful commemoration and celebration of the life of one of Africa’s greatest, courageous patriots and a wise and intelligent leader, the honourable former President Samora Machel of Mozambique, which was held last Friday in Johannesburg;

(2) recognises the importance of such occasions to the history of our people and especially to the youth of today;

(3) commends the celebration of the lives of our leaders who played a big role on the African continent for the African people and their liberation, an important role in the installation of African pride, identity, esteem and patriotism in our people, in particular the young; and

(4) thanks the family of the honourable former President Samora Machel for their assistance in making this memorable occasion possible.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

         OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson and hon members, it is not often that I speak in this House twice in a week. The circumstances are quite different from the last statement that I made before this House and there have been indications, already, that we are all aware of these changed circumstances around issues related to the conditions of service dispensation.

This afternoon we are dealing with the question of accountability and oversight in the Public Service and I am going to reflect fairly broadly on these issues. As all hon members are aware the White Paper on the Transformation of the Public Service captures the vision for the Public Service as we are building a national democratic state and it is as follows, and I quote:

The Government is committed to continually improve the lives of the people of South Africa through a transformed Public Service which is representative, coherent, transparent, efficient, effective, accountable and responsive to the needs of all.

As I said last week, we cannot achieve this through mere statements or rhetoric. It requires hard work, commitment and focus from all of us, including members of this House.

Accountability and transparency, according to this vision, are two of the key characteristics of the Public Service that we are trying to build and that will allow us to continually improve the quality of the lives of our people. As such, it constitutes part of the normative base of the emerging new Public Service of South Africa.

Accountability is part of the contract between Government and the people in which the people, quite correctly, demand control over the use of state power, power that Government only enjoys through the grace of its citizens; or, as we stated in the Freedom Charter, only a government that can justly claim authority will be able to take the whole concept of ``the people governing’’ forward. The people expect Government to explain and account publicly for the way in which it governs and to take prompt and corrective action when things go wrong.

South Africa is a modern democracy that has not shied away from providing institutional bases that are supportive of an accountability principle that combines best practice that is known, in this field. The institutions that we have created cover both horizontal and vertical dimensions of the accountability relationship.

The horizontal accountability dimension typically includes the range of institutions created by Government to check abuses and inefficiency of itself and, obviously, of broader society in those instances through the mechanisms that have been set up; that is, the internal locus of control. On the horizontal dimension we find the judiciary, of which the Constitutional Court plays a particularly powerful role, the legislature, of which the NCOP is part, and all the committees and structures that support the work of the legislature. It also includes Chapter 9 institutions such as the Auditor-General, the Public Service Commission and the Public Protector, to mention but a few.

However, it is only when these institutions of horizontal accountability are strengthened, protected and underpinned by strong vertical accountability that any government is likely to bind itself to the broader implications of horizontal accountability.

South Africa maintains vertical accountability through the electoral process. We are all thus elected representatives and have to create a conducive environment within which civil society can assume the role it plays and facilitate interaction with Government, the legislature, etc, and this includes the presence of a strong and responsible media.

In addition to the structured organisational terrain, we have created a legislative framework that empowers the structures of accountability. As far as an accountable Public Service goes, some of the most powerful legislation that we have put in place includes the Public Service Act and its accompanying regulations, the Public Service Code of Conduct, the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act, the Public Finance Management Act and the Promotion of Access to Information Act.

Accountability is not a single event or even a series of events, nor is it contained in the establishment of structures or organisations alone. It is a complicated and densely woven cloth of different relationships across various institutions and role-players. It is also not static. Contextual changes and developments continually influence it and accountability adapts and responds to these changes in a very dynamic manner. However, accountability is also not straightforward. Other than what many would wish us to believe, the accountability grid contains a myriad of dilemmas and paradoxes, and I am going to touch on a few of them this afternoon.

There is, for example, a challenge of centralisation versus decentralisation dichotomy for accountability. The most recent trends in the area of public administration include maximum decentralisation, devolution, commercialisation and privatisation of service delivery arrangements. Please, let us let the managers manage. As representatives from provinces, hon members come into contact with this all time. Central to that is the idea of enhancing flexibility and allowing improved responsiveness to localised conditions. However, given the loosening of central controls, these arrangements also present new challenges for maintaining proper accountability arrangements, be they administrative, financial or, especially, political. It requires, one could argue, great finesse for the executive to maintain political oversight over outcomes produced and for Parliament and its structures to keep a watchful eye over this.

Another set of phenomena with equally strong implications for accountability are those where we are moving away from departmentalism in the interests of the so-called seamless government, and where we move across geographically defined spheres of government in the interests of co- operative governance.

The Minister for Provincial and Local Government was at the NCOP last week, regarding the discussion around the issue of finances and all that. He also reflected on the challenges, I believe, around some of the myriad of relationships they need to manage from a national, provincial and local government level, looking, for example, at the whole Integrated Rural Development Programme that is being unfurled and how we deal with this.

In this instance, sectors are encouraged to move beyond traditional boundaries. They are encouraged to review the departmental level of government, and private, public and community sectors. Partnerships have become a common mechanism for delivery against public goods. Now these networked arrangements obviously have a number of advantages.

However, hierarchical accountability is a contradiction in these circumstances. Any of these organisational forms for service delivery needs particularly strong skills in terms of design of the accountability framework, as part of the attention to be given to the variety of dimensions in terms of performance being agreed upon. I think these are a kind of challenge hon members need to confront as they deal with these issues.

Another area, or a second area that I want to touch on briefly, is, of course, assessing the impact of current accountability practice on improving Public Service delivery. What can we do to make it work even better? As I mentioned earlier on, South Africa does not have a shortage of structures and institutions operating in the terrain of oversight and accountability. The performance management culture that is being incorporated into public management, together with approaches and techniques such as review, monitoring, evaluation and other tools, will go some way towards strengthening the ability of administrative agencies to meaningfully participate in accountability and oversight initiatives.

If there is a single aspect that is tripping up accountability and oversight initiatives it is the shortage of systematically collecting accurate and timely information, both qualitatively and quantitatively, that would allow the accountability institution to authoritatively make conclusions about Government action in an appropriate manner.

In our own situation of being a developing country that has hitherto, but not necessarily adequately, prioritised issues of evidence-based policy decision-making, outcomes-based policy evaluation and sound information systems, I think we need to ensure that we have appropriate practices, that we have reliable, accurate and timely information, and that we should not see this as a luxury, but rather as a common phenomenon. I said once before to this House that to deal with issues of public service, what do we need to do to make it better? To engage on questions of accountability may lead to what, I believe, someone called Marc Lottering calls the 12 languages - that is what he claims I speak - a language that uses terms and may not always be user-friendly. What I am trying to point towards is that there are certain technical things that we need to review rather closely in order to ensure that we do have on the table and do utilise appropriately the accountability frameworks that we have access to.

Let me talk a little bit about accountability institutions. When we look at the issue of capacity of those institutions, we need to open up an issue that may be a little bit tricky and easily misinterpreted, but I am going to do that this afternoon. The questions are: Who is watching the oversight bodies? Who is checking that they act in efficient ways and are avoiding, as far as possible, duplication of efforts seeking greater co-operation between themselves?

We are starting to notice reports emanating from different institutions that are essentially dealing with the same issues. How do we ensure that oversight bodies do not develop a turf war between themselves, developing empires that were never intended or taking up personal or parochial interests that are to the detriment of the broader South African society? Who is responsible for ensuring that the manner in which accountability institutions are working is constructive and developmental, rather than high-handed and judgmental?

Let me give one example. The Public Service Commission much earlier this year or late last year did a report on leave in the Public Service. They proposed solutions to this particular question, and made proposals and recommendations that have already been implemented by the Department of Public Service and Administration, to be effected within the Public Service. Three weeks ago we had a similar report being presented before the Joint Committee on Public Finances by the Auditor-General. I raise this issue because, I believe, this is where legislators need to play a role. One needs to actually be able to cross-refer and not say, Oh, is this new?'' and rather say,This has come before. Let us go back to the other report and see whether the work has been done.’’ I think these are some of the challenges of accountability.

We have a situation in which, I believe, we all together should say, ``How do we bring things together in order to ensure that the accountability that is required is effected in the true sense, that the oversight role that is required to be played, from the side of legislators, is done in an informed manner?

We need to ensure that we in the executive come and give account and engage with issues, as we are attempting to do today, in order to take things forward. I think this, as an introduction, could probably contribute to the kinds of issues that should and will come up later. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, since the establishment of the NCOP in 1996 it has faced considerable challenges. As a new institution with a unique mandate, it has had to flesh out the role outlined for it in the Constitution so that it can provide an effective bridge between provinces and the national Government.

One of these is its oversight role. Oversight, of course, is the role of legislators in monitoring and reviewing the actions of the executive organs of the state. The South African Constitution has many expectations of the National Council of Provinces in relation to oversight. But oversight is a broad term used for a wide range of activities in many different contexts.

The National Council of Provinces’s role in oversight is to draw provincial and local experience into the national debate when the effectiveness of policy and its implementation is considered. This ensures that the centre remains sensitive to the conditions and needs of everyone. At the same time, while drawing provincial and local government together in a single forum, the NCOP facilitates sharing of experiences and ideas among provinces and local government.

Oversight can help identify common problems and best practices, thereby strengthening the capacity of every level of government. Because of this special role, this Council must carry out its constitutional mandate on oversight in a way that is distinct from all other legislative bodies. This was underscored by the hon President Mbeki during his first address to this House in October 1999, when he said (Hansard 1999, col 579):

It has been suggested that the NCOP should devise ways in which it could have closer interaction with the provincial legislatures to ensure, among other things, that it has access to the reports which the provincial executives present to the legislatures. This would enable the NCOP to get a firm grasp of the progress being made and the problems experienced in the process of governing the provinces. Because the Council also has the possibility of interacting with the national executive, it has therefore been suggested that the Council would thus be in a position to contribute to ensuring better co-operation between these spheres of government.

In considering the oversight role of the NCOP in relation to the Department for the Public Service and Administration, our point of departure should be the extent to which provincial departments have been transformed, and how they impact on service delivery. It is common knowledge that the Gauteng province has made the most progress with regard to transformation and representivity, while the Western Cape reflects the least transformation.

Flowing from this, we also need to examine the programmes that were implemented to bolster human resource and skills development, and to enhance service delivery. Human resource and skills development are two of the major challenges facing our democracy. Thus it is absolutely crucial for the improvement of living standards, increased productivity and competitiveness in the world markets.

The imperatives for social transformation and the urgency of service delivery to all communities, especially the poor, require a competent public service. Thus, training and development are crucial instruments.

Because this House provides the ideal platform for provinces to articulate their historical disadvantage and successes, it is, indeed, an honour to share with the Minister her department’s huge strides towards removing these inequalities in the legislation and exercise of provincial and Government affairs. Some of these include transformation in the Public Service, the Batho Pele policies and a series of White Papers on such issues as human resource management and affirmative action in the Public Service, which culminated in the amendments to the Public Service Act.

In another effort to extend support to departments, the Department for the Public Service and Administration engaged donors to support wide-ranging interventions in areas of need. To this end, the department initiated the Integrated Provincial Support Programme to support some efforts in the provinces.

Over the past year, the department has also developed innovative ways of ensuring delivery through the use of appropriate information technology. One of these is the creation of the Government Information Technology Officers Council. The main objective of this council is the creation of an e-government initiative with an emphasis on the application of information technology to intergovernmental operations, including the interaction between central, provincial and local governments.

This, of course, include paperless messaging, electronic document management and archiving, and an integrated system for finance and human resource management and training. The flagship of this initiative, called Project Kite, is at present situated in the Presidency. It will also contribute, to a large extent, to the imparting of information to the provinces in a co-ordinated fashion. Moreover, it will address issues of common concern and improve provinces’ capacity to fulfil their responsibilities. For example, it will lead to the establishment of benchmarks.

We have seen over the past two years how the Government has shifted its focus from policy development to … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms C-S BOTHA: Chairperson, I must say that it is a pleasure to have the hon the Minister here on repeated occasions. She may come more often.

We have just seen the introduction of the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review 2001, hailed by the Minister of Finance as a tool to strengthen the oversight function of Parliament. In his speech before this House last week, he said:

Problems are less an issue of money and policy. The difficulty lies with the Public Service to achieve delivery, in short, what happens in the lives of people.

It is at this level that our responsibilities must be tested. Citizens have the right to know, not only what the Government intends to achieve, but what it has actually accomplished. Evaluating this information is a major responsibility of legislators, who must oversee Public Service performance to ensure accountability to the voters, whether as taxpayers or as recipients of public services.

This House is often the scene of provincial reflection on activities and aims, rather than on actual performance. Critical evaluation of Public Service performance requires loyalty to the voters, which should transcend political priorities. Unfortunately, this approach has been observed more in the breach than in the execution.

The Government has been very successful in providing a firm framework for accountable and transparent governance in national and provincial government, in line with global trends, such as the passing of the Public Management Finance Act. At the same time, recommendations from a body such as the Financial and Fiscal Commission have not been adopted by the Government, citing as a reason that it is not appropriate to have a bottom- up approach to determine budgetary priorities, which requires political judgment in making difficult trade-offs.

Yet we are constantly treated to the mantra of Batho Pele, or serving the poorest of the poor, as if the repetition of intent will automatically convert to actual performance. I contend that this is the core problem that we, as servants of the electorate, are having to deal with: a choice between real commitment to accountability and service to the people, or trade-offs between serving the interests of a political elite and the minimum service the public is prepared to accept.

It is at the level of our personal experience in our constituencies that we collect valid facts and statistics, and no better place for the President this week to be stuck with his presidential motorcade than in ankle-deep mud for hours, while trying to make his way to the Makhenkesi Stofile technical school. As a result of this exposure on the ground, as opposed to viewing the reality from 30 000 feet in the air, President Mbeki has urged: ``We cannot put in place electricity and development without looking after our roads.’’ That is immediate oversight and accountability. He should do more travelling amongst the people.

Codes of conduct, reams of legislation, commissions, institutions and good intentions are all OK, but we have clinics without medicines, and even without doctors. We have classrooms without books.

In my area there is a very well-run school with over 1 000 pupils, but not a single computer to help with the administrative load. In Welkom there is a police station servicing people, but with not a single vehicle in use, and the sight of policemen on borrowed bicycles performing their duties is a common one.

Inmates of Kroonstad prison can acquire skills training as carpenters, builders, metal workers etc. However, on account of the Government’s preferential procurement policy, which has the professed aim of spreading Government contracts to new businesses, supplies of basic materials are so uneven, and the procedure for obtaining supplies so bureaucratic, that the training in many spheres is virtually at a standstill. So much for seamless Government.

The MEC for education in the Free State - I can also mention this - has probably spent more on spurious lost court cases than on the actual improvement of education in the province. Nationally the expenditure on education has declined by about 9,5% since 1996, but the flow of hot air has increased exponentially.

At another level, it is now happening with tedious regularity that the same names which are tied up in positions where they could have benefited from the arms contract appear in other such positions where money is being made. Yet we are constantly reminded of so-called budgetary constraints when it comes to medicines for Aids victims, support for victims of domestic violence, increases for social services and grants, pot-holed roads, etc.

The call for taking care of people with Aids has reached desperate levels. On the one hand, we have the Minister of Finance in the IFGR claiming mounting pressure from the HIV/Aids epidemic. One of the most serious challenges facing the public sector, he said, is the impact of HIV/Aids. And a more concerted plan is required to increase training in critical areas such as education, health, policing and justice. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I call upon Mr J Home to address the House. Is it Horne or Home?

Mr J HORNE: Chairperson, hon Minister, special delegates from the provinces and hon members of the House, the oversight and accountability role of the Public Service can never be overemphasised, especially as it is a service to the man in the street, whether he or she is rich or poor.

The needs and prestige of the Public Service are in the hands of public servants. They either break them down or build them up. It only takes one corruption case in the Public Service to destroy its image. This is confirmed daily in the various forms of media such as newspapers, radio and TV stations.

The question might well be asked: Who is responsible for the oversight and accountability role in the Public Service? I believe that it rests with everybody, from the most junior official in the department to the most senior, namely the Director-General. The selection criteria for persons to be employed in the Public Service need, therefore, to be looked at carefully.

I have no problem with affirmative action, as long as it is accompanied by a constructive training programme that is regularly monitored to determine whether or not the incumbent is suitable for the position. Putting persons in positions of authority without the necessary effective supervision has led to many malpractices in the Public Service.

There are many shortcomings in the Public Service that need urgent attention. For example, there need to be effective training programmes which must be monitored to determine the success thereof.

Public servants ought to be proud of the work that flows through their hands and display in the execution thereof the necessary sense of responsibility, insight and organisation. If they make this their approach and adopt this attitude, it will go a long way towards protecting and promoting the image and prestige of the Public Service as a whole - something that is lacking at present.

Although the process of salary negotiations was not very easy for the hon the Minister, I would like to congratulate her on the progress that has been made in this regard. [Applause.]

Mrs C NKUNA: Chairperson, hon Minister for the Public Service and Administration Fraser-Moleketi, hon members present in this House, when citizens vote a government into power, they entrust it with the responsibility of governing and managing resources. This has to be achieved through the Public Service, that is in line with the democratic principles of the Government of the day. In this case the ANC Government.

We are moving away from a Public Service that was characterised by lack of representivity and legitimacy, and by poor and discriminatory service delivery. In the previous dispensation, one’s skin colour was one’s curriculum vitae, and the best aspect of it. Now people have to apply, submit their CVs and then be shortlisted, interviewed and appointed.

Our Public Service was characterised by, firstly, centralised control, using the top-down management system; secondly, lack of consultation; thirdly, a lack of accountability and transparency; fourthly, an absence of an effective information system; and fifthly, poorly paid and demotivated staff. We now have the bargaining chamber, where the unions represent the workers and everybody negotiates salaries. There was conflict in labour relations, a lack of professional ethos and of a work ethic. There was resistance to change. When I say ``resistance to change’’, I am reminded of a principal who would tell the learners that the ANC was not going to govern this country, and that people were going to die before their actual death. Yes, some are dead, some have survived and the ANC is governing.

The restructuring and transformation of the Public Service was first done in 1997 through the White Paper on Transforming Public Service Delivery, and it dealt with the following aspects. The first was consultation with citizens on the level and quality of public service they receive. The second was service standards: Citizens should be made aware of the quality of service … I apologise for the bad typescript. Citizens have to have access to equal services. The third was courtesy: Citizens should be treated with courtesy and consideration. The fourth was openness and transparency: Citizens need to know how the national and provincial departments are run and who runs them. The community is able to make a lot of noise because of openness and transparency. To me that is delivery. The fifth was redress: Where a department or the Government has failed to fulfil its obligation, it has to apologise to the community.

The accounting officer must prepare financial statements for each financial year and also submit an annual report on the activities of the department during that financial year - thus ensuring that the structure and content of budget planning submission and annual reports are in alignment.

The question is: How should the Government account to its citizens? Heads of department must prepare an annual report that presents fairly its performance against predetermined objectives, as well as its financial position and submit it to the legislature at the end of a financial year. These annual reports are a mechanism by which a legislature can assess the Government’s performance by comparing what it intends to achieve with what it actually achieves.

Sections 92(2) and 133 of the Constitution provide that members of the Cabinet and of the executive councils of the provinces are both individually and collectively accountable to Parliament and provincial legislatures for the exercise of their powers and performance of their functions. However, the Public Finance Management Act of 1999 provides that when the annual budget is tabled in Parliament the accounting officer for each department must submit measurable objectives for each main division within the department vote.

Furthermore, section 40 of the Public Finance Management Act provides that the accounting officer must prepare financial statements for each financial year and also submit an annual report on the activities of the department during the financial year - thus ensuring that the structure and content of budget planning submissions and annual reports are in alignment. In conclusion, I would like to remark about the brain drain that was referred to in this House some time back: The argument that a lot of expertise is lost as a result people being left out of the appointment processes. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, I first went to the dictionary just to see what these two words mean. An oversight'' means a mistake made without noticing something, whileaccountability’’ means answerability or to have to explain. Reduced to its literal meaning, accountability simply means that people should give reasons for conducting themselves in a particular manner, especially in a manner that is unacceptable. To give an example: We have teachers sometimes, or civil servants, who leave their posts to go and have liquor in the shebeens during working hours. We also have situations in which teachers abuse children. These forms of conduct are unacceptable. These symptoms or actions signify a lack of accountability on the part of the civil servants. The argument goes, therefore, that every public functionary should at all times be in a position to give reasons for his or her administrative acts.

While we engage ourselves in interrogating issues that are within the domain of the Public Service, we should remind ourselves that political accountability holds equal significance for the purpose of avoiding the passage of policies that will not address the immediate needs of the masses on the ground.

The Public Service is riddled with corruption, uninvolvement, boredom, dishonesty and reticence. While we are aware that civil servants are equipped with work facilities such as duty sheets, guides on methods and procedures, staff codes and financial regulations, the need for administrative accountability amongst civil servants remains a critical issue.

Motivation is, to quote Mr Franken:

… a driving force in any individual which moves him or her to act in a certain way. Practically spoken, it is what drives your employees to give their best for your business.

Proponents of this school of thought, such as Herzberg, Scott and Mitchell, rally around motivation as a factor that inspires high responsibility. The mere salary and working conditions will only keep workers on the job. However, these factors cannot simply be underrated because nobody can be motivated to work without pay. Unfortunately the salary and working conditions cannot promote workers’ desire to increase performance. In order to elevate a performance to an above-average level or even to an exceptional level, civil servants have to be committed; they should have ownership and maximise achievements.

Internal motivations have to be stimulated within the civil servants to enjoy the work itself; to have a deep and abiding belief in the importance of the work done, the excitement and the pleasure of challenges. Most civil servants go to work because they must work and not because they want to work. To get workers to enjoy carrying out a task relates to pride of achievement. If the task itself is not a cause of pride for the worker, he or she will not be motivated. The arguments advanced so far revolve around one’s conduct which should be accounted for in one’s work environment.

Lastly, I would like to share this observation. The problems that we are having in South Africa, apparently, which were perpetrated by the apartheid regime, arose because most black workers in this country went to work because they were merely tools. They never had ownership of the industries in which they worked. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M J BHENGU: Chairperson, one of the most critical challenges in the transition to establishing democracy in South Africa is the need to reconcile the delivery of increased public services to the public. What is most noticeable is the fact that the Public Finance Management Act represents a radical departure from the old Exchequer Acts because it places more emphasis on accountabilty for results, that is outcomes and outputs.

The PFMA actually and essentially locates financial management within a performance management framework. The enhanced flow of information between Parliament and national departments, provincial legislatures and provincial departments should greatly improve their physical oversight and accountability. Therefore we need to ensure that Parliament and provincial legislatures play a pivotal role in ensuring that departments adhere to the reporting timeframes. They should also provide information that will assist their oversight function and become fully compliant with the PFMA.

The results-oriented approach to perfomance management requires very different skills which are in lamentably short supply in the public sector. Therefore accountability for results and value for money require managers that should have initiative, who will employ the public resources effectively and efficiently.

Therefore a delivery-oriented Public Service would hold managers responsible for their results rather than mere compliance with administrative procedures. Managers must be given more managerial authority so that they can combine inputs at their disposal to produce output cost- effectively. This is actually in line with the provision of the Constitution which says that all members of Parliament have the responsibility to practise these kinds of duties, but within the context of the provincial interest. [Applause.]

Mr T RALANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, members, in his book The Long Walk to Freedom, former President Nelson Mandela wrote:

I have taken a moment here to rest, to steal a view of the glorious vista that surrounds me, to look back on the distance I have come. But I can rest only for a moment, for with freedom comes responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not yet ended.

He was speaking for himself, from his experiences and the long road that he had walked, and yet he was speaking to all South Africans on the part they have taken in the long walk and on the challenges ahead and the path they still need to walk.

The South African Public Service Commission was formed as a continuation of that walk. It was formed as a strategy to deal with those challenges facing the Public Service in particular. I cannot begin to stress the importance of the role of the Public Service in South Africa. A better life for all demands that we have a very efficient, effective and accountable Public Service.

Under apartheid, the South African Public Service was originally structured around the needs of a deeply racist and undemocratic state. To correct the injustices of the past, in particular regarding the Public Service sector, in former President Mandela’s own words:

We desire that the Public Service be dedicated to serving the public good, that it should be sensitive to the needs of the citizenry and that it should be composed in a manner that reflects the make-up of our society.

Following South Africa’s transition to democracy, transforming the Public Service became a priority. The reality is that the Public Service in some provinces continues to reflect our apartheid past. The pursuit of nonracialism and nonsexism demands that it should be changed. Therefore, the Public Service Commission was formed most importantly to redress those imbalances of the past. The tasks of the Public Service Commission therefore include promoting a high standard of professional ethics, efficient, economic and effective use of resources and a development- oriented public administration. These services must be provided impartially, fairly, equitably and without bias. People’s needs must be responded to and the public must be encouraged to participate in policy- making.

Furthermore, the public administration must be accountable, there should be transparency, good human resource management should be cultivated and development practices should be encouraged for a representative public administration with employment and personnel management practices based on ability, objectivity and fairness, a very challenging but not hopeless responsibility. This has been a gradual and challenging process and definitely not an easy one.

On that note I would like to congratulate the Public Service Commission on the impressive work that they have done thus far. Through the adoption of the Batho Pele principles in the Public Service, the Government has sent a clear signal to the community of its intention to improve on service delivery.

The commission, through this programme, evaluates the service layout of the Public Service and reports on its findings. It aims at evaluating compliance with the Batho Pele principles at grass-roots-level service points, obtaining baseline information on transforming Public Service delivery, soliciting views on constraints and problems experienced by departments in implementing the White Paper and making recommendations on service delivery improvement.

In order to facilitate compliance with the Batho Pele White Paper, the following have been proposed: building basic skills to apply the Batho Pele principles, the integration of the service delivery improvement programme with other management initiatives in the departments, the alignment of service delivery capacity with the service delivery improvement programme, the identification of the service delivery improvement gap and how to achieve the improvement to bridge the gaps.

In addition, the redesignation of business processes involved in the services is envisaged, so that the application of the Batho Pele principles makes a difference to the day-to-day work of front-line personnel and the Batho Pele principles are integrated into the performance management system of the department.

Despite the welcome reality of the existence of our democratic and nonracial Constitution, and despite our hopes and efforts, there are still some problems, as the commission has observed in some of our provinces. The following are some of the observations made by the Public Service Commission regarding the state of the Public Service nationally.

Firstly, combating corruption remains a major challenge currently addressed by a number of different agencies. Secondly, public resources are still not used optimally. Thirdly, there is still no national consensus on what it means to have a development orientation. Fourthly, inconsistencies in national development policies exacerbate this problem. Fifthly, monitoring and evaluation remain a weak area in this regard, while there is a need to take greater account of regional dynamics in development policy and in implementation. Sixthly, patterns of inequality remain in previously disadvantaged areas and previously disadvantaged areas remain relatively underserviced. Less use has been made of participatory techniques than immediately after the political transition, reflecting an increased delivery. A national standard of what constitutes an acceptable level of consultation still needs to be determined. The creation of a transparent public service is a slow and painstaking process that can easily be subverted in the haste to achieve service delivery targets. Building mechanisms and procedures in this area is an ongoing challenge and, despite the creation of an excellent policy framework, much still has to be done in the area of maximising human potential.

Promoting policies and ensuring the use of performance management systems are of concern in this regard. Intensive labour relations have characterised the system. While the Public Service has become more diverse and representative in recent years, there are still certain areas in which gains have been reversed and previously disadvantaged people continue to be marginalised. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to discuss the issues on the table. I am going to respond to some of the questions specifically, but will also deal with some of the issues more broadly.

I want to start out by reflecting a little bit on some of the issues that confront us in the restructuring of the Public Service as a whole and which have particular pertinence to the NCOP as well. These are issues that I believe we should grapple with. I am sure, Chairperson, you will allow me to respectfully engage some of the issues that have been raised by members.

What comes out and has come out quite clearly and repeatedly over a period of time is that in order for it to be appropriately poised to take forward service delivery on the scale and quality required, there is a need for major restructuring of the Public Service.

I would like to remind members of this Council that at this particular point in time we are involved in very intensive negotiations with our labour partners. They start today, 16 October, and continue up to 12 December. We are going to develop procedures, frameworks and mechanisms that will underpin the restructuring process.

It seems as though the NNP and the DA have just sorted out their conflict. I see a number of smiles among those coming into the room. I believe a response is no longer needed, because we have just dealt with the chasm at a political level that could lead to greater accountability in terms of the executive legislative interface here today. Do I excuse myself and ask for a report? [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

I see.

Up to 12 December there is going to be very intense engagement on restructuring. Members have raised the question in this Council today: Why is there a need for that restructuring? We all appreciate the fact that, if we look at the current structure of the Public Service, it cannot yet meet the service delivery needs as required.

As a matter of fact, I want to go back to the current profile of the Public Service. Let us look at some facts. In December 2000, the size of the Public Service stood at just over one million public servants, 71% of whom were in the provinces: the component that hon members directly interface with in terms of their oversight function.

A third of public servants are in social services, 51% being women and 49% men. However, women make up only about 20% of the managerial level of employees. Of that only 0,2% of employees are people with disabilities, and that is far short of the 2% target that we have set for ourselves.

Going further and looking at the management cadre of the Public Service, the number remains alarmingly small. Management constitutes 0,4% of the entire Public Service. To aggravate the situation even further, the distribution of senior managers is skewed between national departments, which are more policy-oriented, and provincial departments, which are closer to the actual service delivery. I raise these issues because it is a reality that we are deeply conscious of. Hence there are particular interventions to deal with these issues. We should not make it seem that changing the Public Service is going to be achieved by the waving of any wand. There is no magic about it. The magic may be in the actual doing and the understanding that we all have as to what should be done and the fact that it is going to take time to do it well.

I want to raise one issue that has come up. The hon member Botha strikes me as having - and I am going to use a term I used once before when the hon member across the floor was too far away to lunge at me or grab me - a sense of political schizophrenia. [Interjections.] I say this today because last week when I was here she interfaced on the wage negotiations in a way which, compared to today, is as if she is talking about two different public services. It is as though today she has woken up to something that is very wrong and whatever.

Last week, if we go back to the Hansard, the input she made was a massive attack on this Government in that it is not taking into account the needs of public servants. Now she comes back and says the issue is not about money. She is quoting, correctly so, a colleague of mine, but she does not place it in a particular context. [Interjections]

What is being raised is not new. The issue is: Do we have the political will to do what is required, or are we in the habit of being politically schizophrenic by playing to the gallery and deciding to run with the hounds and then to hunt with the wolves? If we do that, we are not and do not have the ability to give the required direction, and to take the long haul.

Let me talk about some of these issues. Yes, indeed, this is not all about money. It is also about resources, human resources. What investment are we making in the Public Service to make the changes? We put in place the senior management service, effected in January this year. We are 10 months into that process. I want to beg to differ with a member who also raised the issue of, probably, salaries not being good enough and perhaps not incentivising people to be in the Public Service. I think it’s hon Nyakane who raised this particular issue. I beg to differ. If he looks at the senior management service, he will see that we looked at a package that would assist us both to recruit a particular type of person into the Public Service and retain that person.

We also felt and are working on the development angle of that, which is that of looking at ensuring that we have a programme that is actually supportive of all levels of public servants. Let us look at the management cadre itself, at supporting the management cadre. Hence, we have the whole programme of leadership. We have a programme in which Samdi is involved in the upgrading, skilling and training of senior managers in the Public Service through the Presidential Lead Projects of the Reconstruction and Development Programme, PLSDP. I may have missed a letter there, but I am sure Samdi will excuse me in that instance. We need a bit more, because we realise, very clearly, that in certain areas our salaries will not be competitive with the private sector.

Let us look at the Treasury, for example. The director-general of the Treasury will not be retained through a management package, because she will be able to get that kind of package - three times that amount if not more - as her counterpart would in the UK treasury. But hers also, I believe, goes with the whole calling that says, ``I am proud to be a public servant.’’ I believe she will see it as part of her national service, so to speak, as a good patriot whilst, at the same time, acquiring the kind of experience that will open doors for her anywhere at any point, both nationally and internationally, if she were to leave this particular area.

That is what we are also trying to develop in the Public Service - pride in being a public servant. That is why the Batho Pele project should work. However, again, this is not an event; it is not a narrow campaign. It is about the process. We are trying to do a few things about the Batho Pele campaign. What we are trying to do is to ensure that we are able to make the Public Service more accessible and, hence, we are still working on a directory that will give members of the public easy access as to what services are available.

Through Batho Pele week we tried to ensure that we opened offices to allow people to look at the work processes in offices. We also started doing something in addition to that. We said that where problems are identified we do not just want to stand on a soapbox and appear holier-than-thou and beat our breasts and say, ``This is wrong. This is bad, and it is worse.’’

We also want to ensure that there are interventions that actually take things forward. What and how are these interventions to take place? We want senior managers in teams to go into institutions that have been identified as having problems, and not to go in as the chiefs, but to be part of the team. They go in there to work under the supervisor, in a particular institution, and help to improve the work processes.

We believe that as we are also involved in an oversight role, we also account for what happens. I do not believe that the country wants pessimistic communication all the time in that we say that we have identified the problem. Here is the Public Service Commission report on the Batho Pele review that has been done. There are 50, 100 or 3 000 recommendations. But we harp on about recommendations and we do not do the doing. We want to do more of the doing. As the saying goes which, I think, is a Yugoslavian saying, it is easy for those to talk who have not been involved in the actual practice of doing. I think it goes something along those lines. I shared this at the beginning of the year with the national Parliament.

We want to be able to ensure that national Government and the managers in national Government should not just be seen as developing regulatory frameworks, but should actually be seen working with those at the coalface to ensure that they see the effecting of those frameworks.

Let me take this a bit further and say that a further issue and point that we want to make, coming back to the whole issue of what kind of framework is required, is that we are reviewing regulations to ensure greater mobility of public servants across the spheres of government.

Again, as one listened to the input earlier today, I could not help but wonder whether some of the questions that I threw out in the beginning were actually heard, because when I spoke about seamless government, I also reflected it as a complex issue. I reflected on the complexity around accountability frameworks. This is also about the complexity of ensuring service delivery in a different way. This is not going to happen overnight, I would like to say to hon Botha. I think, if we are going to imagine it is going to happen overnight, then we are creating a false impression for ourselves and for the broader public out there.

However, I want to align myself with the view that we do not expect endless patience by the public. It is correct for the public to insist on better service delivery, both in terms of quality and scale. However, we need to ensure that at the level of the National Council of Provinces we check whether the mechanisms that have been identified to be effected have been effected at the provincial and local levels. This is because as from January this year as well, performance accountability has been integrated in a more practical way. I see up there in the gallery a member of the Public Service Commission, a member who represents this province. The commission itself is playing a role in the evaluation of the directors- general of departments at national level and at provincial level.

The reason that this evaluation is so critical is to ensure that there is accountability down the line for what needs to be done. This is so that a DG knows - I once referred to it very flippantly and I will share that comment in a very anecdotal way - that when Fraser-Moleketi walks in, they should not say, ``I am not going to have my performance evaluated today, because she has a mauve suit on. That is a bad sign. I must wait for the day she has a red suit on, because then she will say yes and I will get the percentage increase I want.’’ [Laughter.] There is a process on the table which has a panel and a mechanism that actually does a review, even by colleagues, of the work of the head of the department or director-general. That process looks at performance accountability and accountability to the executing authority, but hon members need accountability for the service delivery in the field.

Regarding the issue of Batho Pele, we must also ensure that, as we are looking at our oversight role, we are not just using the stick but also the developmental interventions required. During the Batho Pele week, members of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration went to various centres in the Western Cape. They went to clinics, Home Affairs offices, hospitals, etc, where they found various problems. They went to one queue outside the hospital’s medical dispensary. They could not understand why the queue was taking so long. And they realised that they did not require a rocket scientist to effect some changes to the system. They gave some words of advice and the queue moved faster.

How many legislators go out there to see what needs to be done and are willing to come back and tell the Minister or MEC where they encountered problems and say that those problems could be easily resolved if certain things were done differently in terms of the system that is operating there? These are some of the issues that need to be dealt with and it is not just about opportunistic political schizophrenia at given moments. I think that there is a lot more that one can talk about.

I would like to appeal to members by saying: Let us look carefully at the roles that we play. Let us look critically at the extent to which we look at the PFMA as an instrument that can be used in terms of facilitating the oversight. And, as we look at and use that instrument, we can also define our role as legislators in giving it effect.

Regarding the hon member Bhengu - I cannot see him now. He has disappeared. Therefore, I cannot ask the question now. I will have to ask it in his presence, otherwise he may raise the issue again in future.

Let me conclude by stating a reminder and an emphasis on a matter that I think relates to oversight and that should be central to the hon members. Hon members deal with the places where the bulk of the public servants are. They are the representatives of the provinces. The current package on the conditions of service - and I repeat what I said - that is going to be negotiated deals with some of the fundamental issues that are going to contribute to the better functioning of the Public Service. Hon members need to follow that.

Restructuring, I want to repeat, is important. It is not to be done at a distance and then one simply wants to hear about it when there is a crisis or otherwise. Hon members need to familiarise themselves with its details and look at what the needs are in order to improve the service delivery because, as I said before, amalgamating the Public Service into one was no mean feat, but it was not the be-all and end-all. There is a lot else that goes with it.

A second aspect that is in that agreement is the issue of scarce skills - that is, the fact that we need to retain appropriately skilled professionals in the Public Service. Hence, we moved away and set up the issue of the senior management service to move away from the notion that any professional who moves up in the Public Service needs to, automatically, become a manager. Not all of us are good managers. Some of us need and want to remain in a specific profession in order to serve this country with pride. We need to have the opportunity to do that. The senior management service provides that opportunity. Hon members should look at and familiarise themselves with it and ensure that it is being effected and implemented correctly in the provinces.

The last thing that I should say is, and I have said it once before, that it is not only one piece of wood that keeps the fire burning, it takes many pieces. It also requires a good person to make the fire. My grandfather was a woodcutter. Hy was ‘n houtkapper. Using wood as fuel was also central for the income of that family. I raised that because I believe that, in that vein, accountability is a powerful tool in the hands of the people and their institutions. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! That concludes the discussion. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for engaging this House on this lively debate. I hope that this matter will be taken further.

            NATIONAL TRANSPORT TRANSITION AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, members of the NCOP, delegates, my colleague the MEC for transport in the Western Cape, Mr Piet Meyer and my friends, the National Land Transport Transition Act, Act 22 of 2000, was brought into operation on 1 December 2000. Those parts dealing with transport planning were, however, not brought into effect. This decision was taken against the background that the three spheres of government were not ready to implement the requirements of the Act.

Planning is the cornerstone of this law and a question could be raised: Why could Government not delay the promulgation until all those concerned were ready for implementation? It will be recalled that the taxi industry was in chaos during last year and that there was a desperate need to formalise and legalise this industry. In order for us to do this in a proper manner, it was required that this legislation be brought into effect.

My department together with the provinces - and I am happy to report that the co-operation between national and provincial departments is very good - launched the Be Legal campaign in June this year with the specific aim of addressing the formalisation and legalisation of the taxi industry. I am pleased to report today that most of the illegal operators have already applied for legalisation. That is the information I got from the provinces. The proposed amendments before this House will have an impact on this process. I have agreed with the nine provincial MECs of transport that the closing date for adjudication of the applications for legalisation be extended to April 2002. It should be noted that this extension will not reopen applications but will give provinces ample time to finalise this process and issue operating licences to those operators who have met the set criteria.

The proposed amendments before the House today are required to assist provinces to appoint the operating licensing boards or to authorise provincial permit boards to deal with these applications within the framework of the National Land Transport Transition Act.

Furthermore, I would like to report to the House that, for the first time in the history of this country, the taxi industry has a national democratically elected representative body or leadership. This was achieved by my department and the provinces by embarking on a democratisation process for the industry. There were many processes involved in this, and these processes culminated in the National Taxi Conference in Durban from 14 to 16 September when the SA National Taxi Council, Santaco, was formed. Hon members will recall that the previous body was known as Sataco, the SA Taxi Council. So the new body is known as Santaco, the SA National Taxi Council.

In this regard I would like to express my sincere appreciation to Rev Farisani, who is the MEC for transport in the Northern Province. He successfully steered this process to finality on my behalf. Incidentally, I should indicate that Ms Majodina, chairperson of the Select Committee on Public Services, also attended the conference and played an important role in keeping the delegates and conference together. I want to thank her for the role which she played. [Applause.]

I must also say that I enjoyed the full co-operation of all the MECs - all my colleagues from the provinces for transport. I want to record my appreciation to them as well. The MEC for the Western Cape is here, and he attended the conference and was at my side all the time. I want to thank him for that.

I now want to turn to the question of planning. The planning sections of this Act, which are very important, did not come into operation on 1 December 2000 as the rest of the Act did, owing to various preparatory actions that need to take place. Although everybody accepts the importance of integrated transport planning as well as the linkage to integrated development plans, various constraints, ranging from funding to capacity, hampered the ability of all spheres of government to prepare the necessary plans.

At the time of promulgation, the department was in the process of finalising the planning guidelines. We are now busy with the preparation of the planning regulations. These guidelines were prepared in consultation with all role-players, but specifically with provincial and local spheres of government. It is envisaged that these regulations will be published for public comment by February 2002.

Talking about the constraints to which I have referred will not address the problems. Therefore I have decided on the following approach, which I hope will win the approval of this House. Firstly, planning will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. No attempt will be made to bludgeon provinces all to comply at the same time. So they will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, based on agreements between me as Minister and the provincial ministers of transport. Secondly, I have requested the Committee of Transport Officials, Coto, which consists of the 10 heads of departments of transport, to develop a programme of capacity-building in all spheres of government. Thirdly, as the bulk of plans required by the Act will have to be produced by the local spheres of government, the Department of Provincial and Local Government and my department are busy developing ways and means to ensure a common approach to transport planning. Lastly, I will approach foreign countries - we do have some countries with which we have agreements of co-operation - to assist in achieving the goals we set for ourselves in this regard.

Even though the planning sections of the Act are not yet in operation, there is still the need for subsidised bus services to continue serving the community at large, and for Government to transform the bus contracts from the interim contracts to subsidised services and negotiated contracts, thus creating opportunities for the historically disadvantaged and for small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, who are in the bus industry.

Since the introduction of these contracts, I can say that approximately 10% of all subsidised bus services are provided by SMMEs. These services are operated with 414 buses and most of these operators, 57 in total, are new entrants to the market, which is a significant achievement for our country. The move away from lifelong permits to contracts is necessary to address the legacy of the past and to ensure that the needs of the communities are adequately met.

The Act, however, requires the new contracts to be based on transport plans. Compliance with this provision is the ideal, but, as already stated, it cannot be achieved in the short term. Because of this and also because we cannot allow subsidised bus services to be jeopardised, we have asked for this amendment before the House today. The amendment will allow contracts to be concluded even though, at this stage, no transport plans are in place.

I would also like to touch on our involvement in the priorities set by the President in respect of the Integrated Rural Development and Urban Renewal Strategies. Transport is an enabler; it is a facilitator. It is a catalyst in achieving economic and social development. Without transport, many other activities in different areas will suffer. So transport plays a very important role.

Last year my department ran rural access projects in KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape and the Northern Province. We also developed a guide to co- ordinated transport, nodal and linkage development, which serves as a platform to ensure that the full spectrum of transport matters are addressed in an integrated manner. The outcome of these projects will be utilised to extend integrated transport planning to all rural areas in our country. We are very determined to ensure that we participate maximally in the Integrated and Sustainable Rural Development Strategy, as enunciated by the President.

We are also involved in urban areas, and various projects have been identified, which impact directly on the identified urban nodes. Many of these projects have been ongoing since 1999. We have already seen the benefits of the development of urban corridors. I would, however, like to highlight our project of extending the commuter rail line in Khayelitsha. We are struggling very hard to get this done. The problem has always been getting adequate finances, and we hope that our dream in this regard will be realised. The extension of this Khayelitsha rail line will not only provide affordable transport to thousands of our people, but will also assist in the improved utilisation of existing infrastructure. As I say, I hope that we will get the necessary support for this.

My department is currently also in discussion with the Gauteng province and with the Johannesburg Unicity to determine what contribution transport can make in the revitalisation of Alexandra.

May I conclude by saying that although I have already mentioned the reasons for the proposed amendments, I need to stress the importance of proceeding with the transformation of the bus and taxi industries. Even though the necessary planning is in the short term not in place, I want to reiterate my commitment to integrated planning. We are not going to forget about planning or the work necessary to ensure that plans, according to the Act will be ready or that work is continuing. We will, in due course, be able to come up with the plans. This is only an interim measure to ensure that the momentum is maintained.

I would like to thank the Chair, all members of the Select Committee on Public Services, my colleagues, the legislatures and everyone in this House for continual guidance and support in all efforts undertaken by my department and me in addressing the needs of our people. [Applause.]

Ms B THOMSON: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, when we first embarked upon the process of transforming land transportation through the National Land Transport Transition Bill last year, we knew that we had a unique Bill, especially given the enormous challenges that faced this particular industry.

All of us who were involved in the formulation and eventual passage of this Act knew that those sectors that were allowed to operate with little or no norms and standards or guidelines would take some time before they would adhere to the new policy shift. It was precisely because of the peculiar dynamics involved in this industry that the National Land Transport Transition Act took the phased-in approach.

We also knew that because of the scope and magnitude of the Bill we would undergo various teething problems. What this amending Bill before us today represents, therefore, are some of the concerns that were raised during the implementation process of the National Land Transport Transition Act. It represents, too, a means of closing some of the loopholes in the Act that were not immediately apparent and it takes on board other ideas that were inadvertently overlooked.

But, most importantly, what these amendments seek to do is to recognise and give due consideration to the role that the provincial government should play and the role that the new local government authority should play in the land transport industry. The Bill recognises that there are three independent spheres of government that must be given due recognition. They must find ways to speak to each other if the implementation of this Bill is to be successful.

Co-operative governance and sound intergovernmental relations are demonstrated by, amongst other things, this Bill’s extension of the definition of ``planning authority’’. The Bill could even be considered to be lenient in allowing local authorities and local road transportation boards to continue to have the powers and functions that they enjoy up until such time as both the Minister and MEC deem appropriate. At the same time, this Bill cautions provinces to act as speedily as possible in the submission of transport plans, which will help establish a permanent arrangement for local and provincial transport.

Besides recognising the interrelated roles of all spheres of government, this amending Bill highlights the need for all role-players, including civil society, involved in land transportation, to carefully co-ordinate the planning of their projects and programmes into one cohesive, integrated planning unit, so that, ultimately, the public can be ensured of an efficient and safe transportation system.

Because of the nature of the National Council of Provinces, we are always sensitive to the fact that provincial interests and needs have to be well represented and observed. We congratulate the Minister on recognising that MECs should have a more hands-on approach to the appointment of provincial operating licensing board members. We take very seriously our monitoring and oversight functions, and we are pleased to see that this Bill comes with ready-made oversight and monitoring entities in the form of the board and the MEC. We, in this Council, especially after our experiences in the Eastern Cape, are also hypersensitive to corrupt practices that may inadvertently or directly creep into all our good intentions. So we wholeheartedly endorse the inclusion of the MEC, whose role, we believe, will greatly reduce potential corrupt practices.

This committee therefore endorses the Bill. [Applause.] Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon special delegates and colleagues, proposals to amend the National Land Transport Transition Act of 2000 make provision for subsidised service contracts to be concluded, notwithstanding the absence of transport plans. The amendment to section 134 of the principal Act makes it possible for authorities to continue with their transport operations, even though proper transport plans may not have been finished.

It is generally accepted that especially in metropolitan areas, proper transport plans help provide integrated approaches to providing proper services. Normally there are numerous operators in metropolitan areas. Without transport plans, how do we rationalise services in a cost-effective and structured manner? Surely the ad hoc approach will impact adversely on an integrated approach in which other modes of transport may be involved? We ask: Why is the Act silent on the provision of interim transport plans until such time as the relevant authorities are in a position to design transport plans for their areas of jurisdiction? What, in effect, this amendment means is that tenders will be determined on an arbitrary basis. Allowing authorities to initiate the tender process for routes, without any of the formalities prescribed in section 47 having been complied with, poses some difficulty. We understand that the contracting authority, core city or municipality may proceed with the relevant matter, with the approval of the relevant MEC, in consultation with the Minister.

It must not be forgotten that the principal Act, Act 22 of 2000, was specifically designed to establish a holistic public transport policy to ensure that the commuting public have access to a properly co-ordinated and functioning transport system. Are we now setting aside the guiding principles set out in section 4 of Act 22 of 2000, which emphasises co- ordination, efficiency and planning? It is my party’s contention that nothing should be done to the detriment of the commuting public.

However, let me hasten to assure the Minister that the DP, as a responsible component of the opposition Democratic Alliance, will not be a stumbling block to progressive legislation, even though we have some serious concerns, as delineated above. [Interjections.] We realise that there will be serious repercussions and even disruptions should section 134 not be amended. We certainly do not want to be seen as blocking the transformation of the transport industry.

We support the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill. [Applause.]

Ms L F SHABALALA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson and hon Minister, allow me to make this comment first, as the representative from KwaZulu-Natal. Last week we were privileged to be empowered by the briefing that was made by Mr Bassetti from Acsa about the opportunities, challenges and threats in the construction of King Shaka Airport in KwaZulu-Natal. To my disappointment, the journalist who was present at that meeting chose to misconstrue the facts by writing a negative perspective, which was never given by Mr Bassetti. We will take the responsibility, as representatives from KwaZulu- Natal, to correct this perspective in our legislature.

I appreciate the fact that the Bill itself and the amendments thereto intend to advance and consolidate our transformation. We engaged the stakeholders in our public hearings to re-emphasise the point that people shall govern. Our apartheid past, which we should recognise in order to build the future, was characterised by separate development, legalised through the Group Areas Act, the mother of all evils, like taxi violence, poverty and class division. The apartheid economic policies meant that African blacks, as the majority, were organised into the commuter groups of society. The distance from work and towns organised us into the taxi industry, which was later to be deregulated in order to create destabilisation.

The process of regulating and democratising the industry through registration and recapitalisation is nothing but the correction of the past. Therefore, we appreciate the promotion of public transport over private transport. The national taxi conference in Durban was a historic advancement in democracy, especially because it took place in the province of KwaZulu-Natal.

As far as public participation is concerned, I am not sure how the transport boards were constituted in the past, but through the ANC Government transparency is the principle. The mere fact that the board members will be nominated by the communities from the communities means that the revolution is on the right track. The fact that the amendments direct that there be a chairperson of the board, will mean, I hope, that the gender policy will be considered in that process. Even in the music world, boys’ choirs are being phased out.

As the Bill provides for nonmembers, it is indeed a challenge that our transport operators organise and unite towards a collective voice, so as to benefit from the recapitalisation process.

I would like to tell the hon the Minister that in this country we have a standard set of road signs, but our motorists have created new sets of their own sign languages. As one of the readers of the Mercury from KwaZulu- Natal wrote on 3 September 2001:

One finger, one thumb means keep moving we will all be happy and gay, as he wrongly interpreted the sign made by the driver of the passing car. When he asked his kids what the sign meant, they told him that it was the Hawaiian good luck sign. When the other motorist appreciated the bumper sticker on his car, which was praising the Lord, he in return gave them a big smile and held up a middle finger as a good luck sign.

This is an illustration of how road rage starts, from sign language, developing into physical confrontation. I am aware of how the hon the Minister feels towards this intolerance on the road. However, we cannot legislate emotions, except to plead for tolerance amongst all of us as motorists. We appreciate the fact that the hon the Minister and the department took time to take us through this amending Bill. From KwaZulu-Natal we appreciate and support the amendments. [Applause.]

Dr P J C NEL: Geagte Voorsitter, geagte Minister. Op 13 April 2000 het ons in hierdie Huis die belangrikheid van die National Land Transport Transitional Bill bespreek wat dit ten doel gestel het om ‘n fundamentele transformasie en integrasie in die padvervoerwette van ons land te bewerkstellig. Partye het voortgegaan met hierdie doelstelling omdat ons glo dat indien regulering in die totale padvervoerstelsel, maar veral van die taxibedryf daarin kan slaag om orde te skep uit die chaos wat in die bedryf geheers het, kan dit alleen tot voordeel van die gemeenskap wees.

Die Nuwe NP het vir hierdie rede in beginsel die wet ondersteun, maar het ook uitgewys dat daar onses insiens ernstige tekortkominge in die wetsontwerp was en wat aangespreek moes word, voordat hierdie tussentydse wet as ‘n volwaardige wet geïmplementeer kon word. Dit het nie gebeur nie en die wet kon gevolglik nie behoorlik geïmplementeer word nie.

Hier sit ons vandag meer as ‘n jaar en ‘n half later met ‘n wysigingswetsontwerp wat ‘n hele rits amendemente voorstel. Dit is ‘n bewys dat die oorspronklike wetsontwerp nie weldeurdag was nie en dat van die tekortkominge wat ons uitgewys het, nou die oorsaak is dat die wet gewysig moet word. Die Nuwe NP steun ook hierdie wysigings in beginsel, omdat ons glo dat doeltreffende vervoer van mense en goedere ‘n basiese voorwaarde vir gesonde ekonomiese en sosiale ontwikkeling in Suid-Afrika is. Ons glo egter dat strategiese beplanning nodig is vir effektiewe regulering.

In essensie is die hoofdoel van hierdie oorspronklike wetgewing dan ook juis om die totale vervoerstelsel en veral dié van … Veral dié van die taxibedryf. U moet my verskoon. Ek dink dis hierdie bankmaat van my wat my papiere deurmekaar gemaak het. [Gelag.] [Tussenwerpsels.] Wat op die papier wat weg is, staan is dat juis dit wat in die oorspronklike wet staan, nou ongedaan gemaak word as gevolg van die beplanning wat nie nodig is nie, voordat daar aansoek gedoen word vir lisensies. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr P J C NEL: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister. On 13 April 2000 we discussed in this House the importance of the National Land Transport Transition Bill which had as its objective to achieve a fundamental transformation and integration in the road transport Acts of our country. Parties proceeded with this objective because we believed that if regulation in the total road transport system, but particularly in the taxi industry, could succeed in creating order out of the chaos which prevailed in the industry, it could only be to the benefit of the community.

The New NP supported the Act in principle for this reason, but also pointed out that in our opinion there were serious shortcomings in the Bill and that these had to be addressed, before this interim Act could be implemented as a fully fledged Act. This did not happen and the Act could consequently not be properly implemented. Here we sit today, more than a year and a half later, with an amending Bill which proposes a string of amendments. This is proof that the original Act was not well thought out and that the shortcomings which we pointed out are now the reason that the Act must be amended. The New NP also supports these amendments in principle, because we believe that efficient transportation of people and goods is a basic condition for sound economic and social development in South Africa. However, we believe that strategic planning is necessary for effective regulation.

In essence the primary objective of this original legislation is then also precisely, with regard to the total transport system and particularly that of … Particularly that of the taxi industry. You must excuse me. I think it’s this bench mate of mine who has mixed up my papers. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] What appears on the paper that is missing, is that precisely that which appeared in the original Act is being undone as a result of the unnecessary planning, before licences are applied for.] The preparing of national transport strategic frameworks by the hon the Minister of Transport is very important. These sections in schedule 7 of the Bill also make provision for the preparation of current public records, rationalisation plans and public integrated plans.

The transport plans, inter alia, were supposed to protect the interests of both the existing operators and the users by ensuring that there would be an objective basis for identifying the routes or route networks to be put to tender. The amendments, effectively, now remove the need for transport plans and enable the tenders to be determined on a completely arbitrary basis.

The widening of the definition of the transport authority puts the responsibility for drawing up public and integrated transport plans on authorities that, at present, might lack the capacity and the technical competence to do so.

Ten slotte wil ek my teleurstelling uitspreek oor die prosedure wat gevolg is by die hantering van die wetsontwerp in die gekose komitee. Skriftelike voorleggings en voorstelle vir wysigings is gemaak deur van die belangrikste rolspelers in die bedryf, soos byvoorbeeld SABOA, wat die operateurs verteenwoordig wat ongeveer 12 000 busse in ons land besit, asook ander instansies. Daar was ook versoeke van hulle kant om die komitee toe te spreek.

Al wat gebeur het, is dat SABOA toegelaat is om ‘n waarnemer te stuur na die drie sittings van die komitee, maar is nie toegelaat om die komitee toe te spreek nie. Geeneen van die voorstelle is eers voorgelê aan die regsadviseurs van die departement vir kommentaar nie. Van die voorstelle was relevant en mens kan maar net hoop dat die portefeuljekomitee van die NV hulle wel ‘n kans sal gee om gehoor te word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In conclusion I want to express my disappointment about the procedure followed in the handling of the Bill in the select committee. Written submissions and proposals for amendments were made by some of the most important role-players in the industry, such as SABOA for example, which represents the operators who own approximately 12 000 buses in our country, as well as other institutions. There were also requests on their part to address the committee.

All that happened was that SABOA was allowed to send an observer to the three sittings of the committee, but they were not allowed to address the committee. None of the proposals was even submitted to the legal advisers of the department for commentary. Some of the proposals were relevant and one can only hope that the portfolio committee of the NA will give them a chance to be heard.]

Mr P P DYONASE (North West): Chairperson, hon Minister of Transport, it is unfortunate that I am from the North West because we do not have it. The spirit that prevailed at the taxi conference held in Durban left us with a big hope that the industry would take the right direction. Fortunately I was there, but the excuses made by individuals accusing the MECs for not consulting them were totally unacceptable. The word ``consultation’’ must not be used to derail this process.

I know where I am coming from in North West. Extensive consultation has been done but one will always get those individuals who say that they were not consulted. They do not fit into the present system. In the North West about 57 taxi associations have not yet registered. One asks oneself what the problem might be. They will tell one that they are thinking about it.

We have many women who are committed to peace in those associations, but they are led by the radicals. The industry is full of the blood of the commuters and it can kill its own members. I have a picture in my mind of the delegation from the Eastern Cape. They were contributing to peace in this industry. They were massacred when they came back from the conference. It simply says that there are those individuals who are still resisting this process. We will not stop this process and it will continue.

With this legislation, the Minister has the full support of the North West and everybody must support it. When we get out of this old process in this industry, we are saying to the Minister that as much as we are having all these problems, this transformation must continue and nobody will hold it back, even those individuals who will be cast out and who need to transform themselves. Let us continue to support it and give it our total assistance. Let us establish who the owners or the masters of this industry are. Thank you, Chairperson, for giving us as provinces the chance to comment. [Applause.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, hon Minister of Transport, hon members of the NCOP, the Bill on the Table is a very important tool for bringing peace and stability in the famous taxi industry. It is famous because it caters for a population of almost 60% of daily commuters countrywide. It is also very pathetic that many families have lost their loved ones in this popular and widely used industry across the country.

The sporadic eruption of violence brings chaos and misery to most civilians who depend on the taxi as a means of transport. Children and adults have died and have been accidentally caught up in shooting episodes. Many taxi drivers have been killed in faction fights in this industry. We in the IFP express our deepest sympathy to all the families and victims of taxi violence. We say that enough is enough.

In the past two weeks six people from Qunu in the Eastern Cape lost their lives after having attended the important meeting in Durban which was convened by the Minister of Transport. In his efforts to bring peace and stability in the taxi industry, the President in his speech during the funeral of these victims mentioned:

This taxi violence is unnecessary and must come to an end.

We commend the work of the Department of Safety and Security for apprehending the culprits concerned with these unnecessary gruesome killings of innocent people. The law must take its course for all the culprits. It is high time now that people learnt to live and let live.

Kuyadabukisa kakhulu ukubona kukhona izinxushunxushu nokungabekezelelani kulo msebenzi omkhulu kangaka wosomatekisi.

Siyathokoza impela ukubona umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe wezokuThutha esemizameni yokuletha ukuthula kulolu hwebo. Abantu bayaqedana kulo msebenzi, kubangwa abagibeli. Ukungena komthetho kaHulumeni ozolamula kulolu hwebo kubaluleke kakhulu. Umphakathi osebenzisa amatekisi uzozizwa ukhuselekile futhi uvikelekile kulawo machaphazelo owatholayo uma kuliwa.

Abanye bayadubuleka bafe, kwesinye isikhathi inhlamvu ishushuluza iyoshaya izingane noma abantu abangaqondene nalezi zimpi. Sonke siyazi ukuthi uma izinto zingahambi kahle kuye kushaywe umthetho ukuze izaphulamthetho zithole ukujeziswa.

Siyethemba ukuthi kancane, kancane izinto zizolunga. Sithi thina be-IFP, phambili ngomthetho ozoqeda udlame ematekisini. Impela sithi phambili! [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[It is disappointing to see violence and a lack of patience in the taxi industry. We are glad to see the Minister of Transport trying to bring peace in this enterprise. People are killing one another in this business, because they are competing for passengers. Now people who use taxis will feel safe and protected from the pain they suffered when taxi people were fighting.

Some are shot dead, in other cases the bullet hits children or people who have nothing to do with that violence. We all know that if things are not going right, an Act should be passed so that the culprits will be brought to book.

We hope that little by little things will return to normal. We in the IFP say forward with the Act that is going to stop the taxi violence. We indeed say forward! [Applause.]]

Mr P MEYER (Western Cape): Chairperson, Minister of Transport the hon Omar, hon members most of us are aware that the National Land Transport Transition Act underwent a difficult process of writing and rewriting over a period of approximately four years until it was promulgated and finally signed into effect by the President in December last year.

Although it was a very important and urgently needed Act during the last phases of that exercise, it was hurried through the process with two primary objectives in mind: firstly, to enable the special legislation or Be legal process to start and, secondly to allow the unbundling of the monopoly-held bus contracts to proceed

However, certain critical portions of the Act were not brought into operation or were left out in error, resulting in the fact that neither of these objectives could be lawfully concluded. Despite this fact, a number of my colleagues in the other provinces pressed on with the process, unknowingly or as a result of pressure of circumstances.

In the Western Cape we could not allow that path because of very specific legal advice that such action would be unlawful and contrary to the principle emphasised by the Constitutional Court to the effect that Government had to operate within the law at all times.

The amending Bill before the House this afternoon attempts to ease the path in respect of the two objectives I mentioned earlier. I find myself in a very difficult position in the knowledge that the Act still contains flaws and omissions that need to be addressed urgently.

I have chosen the path of supporting its further passage, basically because it is imperative to conclude the Be Legal process. That is my one and only motivation at this stage, since it is essential for the further transformation of the taxi industry. But I do this under the express proviso that a team of legal and professional experts be appointed immediately to rework the Act as amended, once passed, without delay so as to refine and improve it to become an Act of which we can be confident and proud, as it was intended to be, that does not contain the elements it currently includes.

In the meantime my province will press ahead with its own processes of replacing Chapter 3 of the Act, which pertains to provincial matters relating to transport, with provincial legislation. Because we intend to do this thoroughly it will necessarily take time and we will consequently continue to be reliant on the parent Act until the completion of our processes.

I would like to move the following: that the amending Bill be approved for further process, that a team of professional and legal experts be appointed immediately to refine the Act as amended, once passed, without delay.

Mr T MHLAHLO (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, the province of the Eastern Cape supports this Bill. Firstly, the amendments appear to have successfully addressed the problems encountered in the interim bus service contracts at the time when planning had not progressed to the stage envisaged at the time of promulgating the principal Act.

The amendments will therefore facilitate the breaking of the deadlock which currently exists in the process of tendering for bus services.

Secondly, the province notes further that the amendments will enhance the policy of regulated competition in the awarding of public transport contracts for bus services.

Thirdly, because of this Bill, current tendered contracts have now been extended, even if the public transport plans have not been finalised as is required by the principal Act. For these reasons we, as a province, fully support this Bill.

We also wish to note the fact that the Eastern Cape has witnessed some of the worst incidents of taxi violence this year. I think the incident which occurred immediately after the conference in Durban is known throughout the country.

Umtata, Buffalo City, East London, Bisho and King William’s Town have been the major flashpoints of conflict in the taxi industry. There had been some declaration of peace made by taxi associations at the time, but it was short-lived and lacked substance in some cases.

Law-enforcement operations began in East London and surrounding areas on 10 October with the aim of normalising the situation in the taxi industry. It is a simple routine joint police and traffic action to maintain law and order, with a special focus on the taxi industry.

The taxi operators around East London have decided to withdraw their services to register their protest against the police action. We view this as a very unnecessary action on their part. They have noted with great concern that the taxi operators around East London have decided to withdraw their services in protest against this action. The Department of Transport will provide an alternative form of transport, like buses, for the general public. We note with concern that these acts of intimidation are largely committed by taxi operators and are directed against every vehicle travelling along our roads in the province.

We are also convinced that this new element of counter-revolution, if you like, is not a new practice in our province. We graduated in the past from a violent apartheid policy and onslaughts by the military forces of the then apartheid regime, but we succeeded in getting to where we are as a country. We are still convinced, even today, that we will meet the challenges confronting the transformation of the taxi industry, and transport generally, in this country and that we will succeed.

We want to call on those who are involved in the taxi industry to refrain from allowing individuals to use public transport, and taxis in particular, as a springboard to launch counteractivities, particularly in the Eastern Cape. There is no need for this.

The Transkei seems to be the most active area when it comes to violence against public transport. We are also convinced that these elements are not necessarily taxi operators. These elements need to be captured because they are exploiting the successes that are beginning to emerge within the taxi industry to derail progress in our democracy.

We fully support this Bill. We are convinced that the hon the Minister is going to provide the necessary leadership and that we will succeed in the end. [Applause.]

Mr P D N MALOYI: Madam Chair, hon Minister of Transport Comrade Dullah Omar, special delegates present here today, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I stand before the House to endorse and support the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill. I would like to express our sincere appreciation to the Minister of Transport and his department for having introduced these amendments in our House. This clearly demonstrates the confidence he has in this House, and we thank him and his department for that. Keep it up! I think these are the words from the select committee as a whole.

From 10 to 19 September 2001 all the nine provinces discussed these amendments with their hands faced up - without any hidden agendas - seeking ways and means of how to assist in accelerating change in the transport industry, and the taxi industry in particular.

It is worth mentioning that out of the nine provinces, five had public hearings whilst the other four had discussions in their respective committees. As a committee and through individual members who were in those provinces, we assured both the public and our committees in the nine provinces of our intention to utilise all contributions they made prior to the sitting. Therefore, this suggests that the select committee and all other provinces agreed with the amendments to this Bill. I must say to special delegates who are here today that, of course, we did utilise their contributions and they are encapsulated in the Bill before them.

I would like to imagine that at this moment of transforming this nation into an equal society where peace, prosperity and harmony must triumph - Mr Raju should note this - anyone persisting in exhibiting unwarranted behaviour will forever regret those actions.

The New NP and the DP, if they are ever honest, will concur with the statement that it is a historical fact that our terrible past abounds with countless incidents of persecuting any critic of the state. We would never, as the ANC, take that option because we are acutely aware that our democracy will never survive if there is an attempt by the state to suffocate critics’ efforts. We will continue to encourage people to air their views about what the Government is doing and saying because it is those comments that enable the ANC-led Government to be introspective. But we cannot allow anybody to misuse that space we have created. I am saying this because, as I said earlier, in the committee where Mr Raju and Dr Nel are members, they agreed with all the amendments and Mr Raju was the champion of the suggestion that all the amendments should be agreed to. I am surprised that today he went outside and met his leader, who said he should come to this House and oppose those amendments, and simply say to the House that the New NP supports the amendments, but for the wrong reasons. If hon members were listening to Mr Raju when he was speaking, they will know that he was simply saying that these amendments are just not on. But he continued to say he supports them. The reality of the matter is that they do not support the amendments, because if they did support them, his reasons would be in line with what the ANC is saying and with what all other provinces are saying.

I am also surprised that the Western Cape discussed this Bill on the 19th, and, in terms of both their negotiating and final mandates - a mandate which was signed, of course - they indicated to the committee that they supported all the amendments. I am now surprised that the special delegate here, the MEC from this province, seems not to know what his committee in the province or the legislature said. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Allow me first of all to thank all members who have participated in this debate for their stated support for the Bill. I appreciate the contributions of everyone, particularly the attention which was drawn to a number of important areas.

I also want to thank the select committee, because, if one looks at the record, one will see that the select committee looked very carefully at the amendment and made suggestions of its own which were then incorporated in the Bill before this House. So the committee and this House are not just rubber stamps. They look very carefully at the amendments and apply their minds to the matter. I want to thank the House and the committee for that. [Applause.]

I am a little puzzled by the contributions of the hon Raju. I must say he is a nice man. We do get on very well. [Laughter.] But I think he had to say what he did. What puzzled me is that the representative of the New NP did not stand and object. I will tell you why. Hon Raju says that the DP, as a responsible component of the DA, etc … Of course, the DA has two components. The one component is responsible''. [Laughter.] What is the other component? I think they are quite capable of dealing with this matter of who isirresponsible. I leave it to them.

An HON MEMBER: Marais!

The MINISTER: What is equally puzzling is that he should be talking about arbitrariness - that what we have done was to create room for arbitrary action. Because he brought in this element of a ``responsible component’’ of the DA, one must actually respond when he talks about arbitrariness. Judging from what has been happening outside in this city there has been a great deal of arbitrariness; not only arbitrariness, but dictatorship or attempted dictatorship on the part of the leader of the DP. [Applause.]

I suppose he said that because he was ordered to say it as the hon Raju. [Laughter.] I hope that his fate will not be the same as that of the honourable Mayor Marais. [Laughter.] But I think he tried his best to avoid that kind of fate. His leader says: ``I am the leader! I decide, and you, deputy leader, accept or you are part of … There is no such thing as leadership! There is no such thing as democratic discussion! I am the leader! You must accept! Do what I like now!’’ Is that not the height of arbitrariness if not dictatorship? Through you, hon Chair, I really want to say to the hon Raju that he should not talk about arbitrariness.

In fact, if one looks at the Bill, every attempt was made to deal with possibilities of arbitrariness. The Bill deals with this matter, that is the issue that the member raised. There is no question that tenders can be dealt with on an arbitrary basis. First of all, our Constitution is applicable to this Bill and its provisions. The Constitution and the law which makes provision for judicial reviews of all administrative action apply. Any action by a body dealing with tenders which is arbitrary or wrong can be taken on review and can be overruled by a court. We have adequate protection in our law to deal with all kinds of arbitrary action.

In this particular instance, care was taken to ensure that the current public transport records, which were prepared under the National Land Transport Interim Arrangements Act of 1998, would be deemed to be the current public transport records as required by the Act that we are talking about at the moment until the latter have been prepared. In other words, the potential problem has been dealt with in this amending Bill. I do not have any problems with regard to the so-called arbitrariness. I think that it does not exist.

I want to thank hon Shabalala for her input. I am pleased that she has drawn attention to the fact that Mr Bassetti, the representative of Acsa, was wrongly quoted in the newspapers. I can say to the hon Ms Shabalala that that report has caused considerable damage, because on the side of Government and the Airports Company, we have been saying that the development of King Shaka Airport at La Mercy is on the agenda.

All we need to do is to find out what the best way to go is, and what the alternatives are. That is what Acsa has been doing. It has worked out a number of scenarios. It says that these are the options before us, and that as Government, we should decide what we want, and let us talk and see how we can move forward with development.

As a result of the newspaper reports, we have been receiving dozens of phone calls from many people in different parts of the country, protesting against what they called the ``double-talk’’ on the part of the Airports Company and Government. I think that it was very important that the member should have pointed out in this debate today that, in fact, the debate and contribution were positive, and that the project on the agenda is being considered. Obviously, because it involves a great deal of money one does not simply recklessly jump into a project. One must work out what the best way of proceeding is and this is what is happening at the moment.

Hon Dr Nel referred to Saboa and I want to let him know that there is constant interaction between the department and Saboa. It meets with me from time to time, and their concerns have been taken into consideration. We continue to meet with them to ensure that even if problems arise, they can be dealt with.

I understand that the portfolio committee will be meeting and that Saboa will be at the portfolio committee of the NA. So it will have another debate. It meets with the department, it meets with me and it will also have an opportunity to meet with the portfolio committee. There is no problem with regard to arbitrariness, and I can assure this House that we will not allow arbitrary action to be taken by anybody.

A number of delegates and members have referred to the taxi processes and conference. I just want to say a few words about that in my concluding remarks. The taxi conference which took part in Durban was, indeed, an historic event. I want to point out to the House that it was the tip of the iceberg. There were many processes which preceded the national taxi conference. In eight of the nine provinces democratisation processes have taken place.

Most associations have adopted, by and large, democratic constitutions. I would like to mention the Eastern Cape as we had a problem there. It is divided into five regions. In each of the regions they held regional conferences. They elected regional leaderships. Then there was an Eastern Cape provincial conference, which I myself attended. There they elected a provincial leadership. So there is an Eastern Cape Provincial Taxi Council.

A number of the associations did not take part. That is true, as was pointed out. We do have that kind of problem. But they do not represent the majority. They represent the minority. The provincial taxi council went out of its way before the national conference to involve everybody.

Rev Farisani, whom I mentioned in my opening address, visited every single province. In the Eastern Cape he persuaded the provincial leadership and others to come together so that everyone could feel part of the national conference. In each of the provinces there were similar democratic processes. So one now has democratically elected provincial taxi councils in every province.

In the Western Cape a somewhat different route was taken. The democratisation process is still proceeding. I think that with the support of the provincial Minister we will see a provincial conference taking place in due course and a leadership elected. However, the Western Cape was there. Its delegation was there. Different groups who, perhaps, at one time did not talk to each other, were all at the conference.

I think there has been a wonderful commitment on the part of the overwhelming majority in the taxi industry to move forward, and to move forward on the basis of peace. When the killings took place in the Eastern Cape, I immediately communicated my concern to Minister Tshwete, and he acted immediately. He was in the Eastern Cape, he saw the MEC in the Eastern Cape and together they started to address this problem without delay.

I agree with the view that people who participate in violence, and those who participated in the killing, must be arrested. They must be captured and brought to court. They must be dealt with by our courts, and our courts must set an example that that kind of violence is not going to be tolerated.

However, by and large, that process is moving forward. I can say that at the conference a special resolution was passed. The conference was attended by approximately 1 000 delegates from all over the country. No one represented himself or herself. Everyone represented a constituency. So it was a very democratic conference and very representative. They passed a resolution unanimously in support of the recapitalisation programme of Government.

Since the conference, I have met on occasion with the newly elected leadership so that we move forward together and for us to see in which way we can assist the leadership. Yesterday Minister Alec Erwin and I met with the executive of Santaco to talk about recapitalisation and to see how we can work together to make sure that the process is a success.

There is no tension or difference between Government, on the one hand, and Santaco on the other. We respect Santaco. It is an independent organisation. It represents the taxi industry. We have our views on the side of Government, but we are working together in partnership towards a common objective.

What I want to say is that we are not going to allow those who want to derail processes to stand in our way. The processes to formalise the industry, to ensure that it operates according to law and according to regulation, are going to continue. The recapitalisation programme of Government will continue in co-operation with the taxi industry.

Now and then, from time to time, we are going to have the kind of problems that we have seen. I expressed the hope that we would have less and less of them. I have no doubt in my own mind that the forward movement of the industry, so that it becomes a respected industry in our country, will continue.

The amendments here before this House are designed to assist, as the hon Meyer pointed out in part, the legalisation process. They will also facilitate the continuation of the legalisation process. I have every hope that the legalisation process will be successfully concluded.

The last issue is that of law enforcement. This is our one big problem in the taxi industry. In the whole transport sector, policing and law enforcement remain crucial issues which still need to be addressed. We are addressing these issues and I have raised them in Cabinet as well. But my hope is that with the support of this House we will begin to develop the solutions so as to ensure that there is adequate law enforcement. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 17:53. _____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                       FRIDAY, 12 OCTOBER 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: (1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 12 October 2001 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:

   (i) Medical Schemes Amendment Bill [B 80 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).

 (2)    The Minister of Trade and Industry on 9 October 2001 submitted a
     draft of the  Lotteries  Amendment  Bill,  2001,  as  well  as  the
     memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed  legislation,  to
     the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of  Joint  Rule  159.  The
     draft has been referred to the Portfolio  Committee  on  Trade  and
     Industry and the  Select  Committee  on  Economic  Affairs  by  the
     Speaker and  the  Chairperson,  respectively,  in  accordance  with
     Joint Rule 159(2).


 (3)    The Minister of Health submitted the Molaokakanywa  wa  Ditirelo
     tsa  Laporatori  ya  tsa  Maphelo  ya  Bosetshaba  [M  56  -  2001]
     (National Council of Provinces - sec 76) to  the  Speaker  and  the
     Chairperson on 10 October 2001. This is  the  official  translation
     of the National Health Laboratory Service Amendment Bill  [B  56  -
     2001]  (National  Council  of  Provinces  -  sec  76),  which   was
     introduced in the National  Council  of  Provinces  by  the  Select
     Committee on Social Services at the  request  of  the  Minister  of
     Health on 30 August 2001.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 Third  Interim  Report  of  the  South  African   Law   Commission   on
 Simplification of Criminal Procedure (The  right  of  the  Director  of
 Public Prosecutions to appeal on question of fact), Project 73 [RP  58-
 2001].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill [B 39 - 2001] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), dated 10 October 2001:

 The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the  subject
 of the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill [B 39 -  2001]
 (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), referred to it and classified
 by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports  the  Bill
 with amendments [B 39A - 2001].


 The Committee further reports as follows:


 A.     Public hearings


     1. The Committee initially intended to conduct public briefings  at
          Parliament,  and  an   advertisement   calling   for   written
          submissions was placed in  weekly  newspapers  on  11  and  12
          August 2001. In  order  to  reach  as  many  stakeholders  and
          communities as possible and to obtain  maximum  input  on  the
          Bill, it was later decided to cancel  the  nationally  planned
          public hearings and to appeal  to  all  provinces  to  convene
          public hearings  at  provincial  level.  Public  hearings  and
          departmental briefings were held in the provinces:


          *   Eastern Cape: 11 September 2001 - a briefing  meeting  was
            held in the Provincial Legislature.


          *   Free State: 10 to 14 September 2001 - a  briefing  meeting
            and public hearings  were  held  in  various  regions,  i.e.
            Bloemfontein, Trompsburg, Welkom, Qwaqwa and Parys.


          *   Gauteng: 11 and 12 September 2001 - a briefing meeting and
            public hearings were held.


          *   KwaZulu-Natal: 11 and  12  September  2001  -  a  briefing
            meeting and public hearings were held  in  various  centres,
            i.e. Newcastle, Ulundi, Pietermaritzburg and Port Shepstone.


          *   Mpumalanga: 10 and 12 to 14 September 2001  -  a  briefing
            meeting and public hearings were held  in  various  centres,
            i.e.  the   Provincial   Legislature   (briefing   meeting),
            Ehlanzeni District Civic Centre (Nelspruit), Eastvaal Region
            and Enkangala District.


          *   Northen Cape: 12 September 2001 - a briefing  meeting  was
            held in the Provincial Legislature's Boardroom.


          *   Northern Province: 13 September 2001 - a briefing  meeting
            was held in the Provincial Legislature.


          *   North West: 14 September 2001 -  a  briefing  meeting  and
            public hearings were held in  the  Provincial  Legislature's
            Conference Room.


          *   Western Cape: 19 September 2001 - a briefing  meeting  was
            held in the Provincial Legislature.


     2. Members of the  Committee  were  deployed  to  their  respective
          provinces to facilitate the briefings and public  hearings  in
          collaboration with senior officials of the national Department
          of Transport.


 B.     Written submissions


     1.  Written  submissions   were   received   from   the   following
          stakeholders and members of the public:


          *   KwaZulu-Natal Public Transport Licensing Board
          *   South African Bus Operators Association
          *   City of Cape Town (Transport and Roads)
          *   Western Cape Department of Economic  Affairs,  Agriculture
            and Tourism
          *   Golden Arrow Bus Services (Pty) Ltd
          *   Mr Lucas Mangala, Welkom


     2. The above submissions were dispatched to all provinces  and  the
          national Department  of  Transport  for  consideration  during
          their briefing meetings and public hearings.


     3. The Committee further undertook to furnish  its  counterpart  in
          the National Assembly, the Portfolio Committee  on  Transport,
          with  all   submissions   received,   for   possible   further
          consideration.


 C.     Conclusion


     1.  The  Committee  wishes  to  express  its  appreciation  to  all
          stakeholders (with the  exception  of  Gauteng  who,  for  the
          second time, did not have a written mandate)  and  members  of
          the public who made submissions to  and  interacted  with  the
          Committee during its deliberations on the Bill.


     2. The Committee further notes the commitment and dedication  shown
          by the officials of the national Department  of  Transport  in
          that their work was  done  diligently,  despite  hiccups  with
          organising public hearings at provincial level.


     3.  The  Committee  further  notes  that  there  was   considerable
          agreement among almost all the provinces on the amendments  to
          the Bill, the end result being  implementable  legislation  to
          allow the development of public transport in South Africa.

                       MONDAY, 15 OCTOBER 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister of Finance submitted  the  Wysigingswetsontwerp  op
     Beheer van Aandelebeurse [W 75 - 2001]  (National  Assembly  -  sec
     75) to the Speaker and the Chairperson on 15 October 2001. This  is
     the official translation of the Stock Exchanges  Control  Amendment
     Bill [B 75  -  2001]  (National  Assembly  -  sec  75),  which  was
     introduced  in  the  National  Assembly  by  the  Minister  on   21
     September 2001.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Written Explanation from the Minister of Finance in  terms  of  section
 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of  1999)
 setting out the reasons why the South African Revenue Service could not
 table its Annual Report and Financial Statements for 2000-2001 in time:


     Written Explanation in terms of  section  65(2)(a)  of  the  Public
     Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999)  for  late  tabling
     of Annual Report and Financial Statements


     In terms of section 55 of the Public Finance Management Act,  1999,
     the South African Revenue Service (SARS) must  prepare  and  submit
     its financial statements to the Auditor-General  and  the  relevant
     treasury within two months after the end  of  the  financial  year.
     The audited financial statements must be submitted to the  relevant
     treasury and to the Minister of Finance within five months  of  the
     end of that financial year.   Section  65  of  the  Public  Finance
     Management  Act,  1999,  provides  that  the  annual   report   and
     financial statements must be tabled  in  National  Assembly  within
     six months after the end of the relevant financial year.


     The financial statements of SARS,  as  a  public  entity,  must  be
     prepared in accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting  Practice
     (GAAP),  unless  the  Accounting  Standards  Board   approves   the
     application of Generally Recognised Accounting Practice (GRAP).  As
     the Accounting Standards Board has  not  been  appointed  yet,  the
     Accountant General (National Treasury),  performing  the  functions
     of the Board in terms  of  section  93(3)  of  the  Public  Finance
     Management Act, 1999, approved the application of  GRAP  on  21 May
     2001.


     Section 91(1)(b) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999,
     however, also requires that the Minister of Finance must issue
     regulations prescribing the standards set by the Accounting
     Standards Board (in this case the National Treasury), before these
     standards can apply. Approval, in principle, was granted for the
     publication of these regulations and the regulations were
     published for public comment on 6 September 2001. Once the
     deadline for comment expires on 8 October 2001, the final
     regulations will be published after taking into account any
     comments received.


     In terms of section 55 of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999,
     the audited financial statements had to be submitted to the
     relevant treasury and the Minister of Finance before 31 August
     2001. As the regulations prescribing GRAP had not at that stage
     been published yet, SARS requested extension until 31 October 2001
     for the submission of the audited financial statements, which
     extension was approved by me on 14 August 2001.


     The annual report containing the financial statements can,
     therefore, not be tabled in National Assembly by the end of
     September 2001, as required by section 65 of the Public Finance
     Management Act, 1999, as the financial statements will only be
     finalised after the regulations setting the standards of GRAP have
     been published.

1. The Minister of Transport:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Transport for 2000-
 2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
 Statements of Vote 33 - Transport for 2000-2001 [RP 159-2001].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on study tour to KwaZulu-Natal, dated 4 October 2001:

 The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having
 undertaken a study tour to KwaZulu-Natal on 24 and 25 May 2001, reports
 as follows:


 A.     Objective


     The Committee initially sent a delegation to KwaZulu-Natal as part
     of a series of visits that the Committee undertook to various
     provinces. Based on the report and recommendations of that
     delegation, at a meeting on 4 April 2001 the Committee decided to
     visit KwaZulu-Natal again.


     The Committee undertook the visit to deal with matters pertaining
     to land claims and restitution. The objective was to gather first-
     hand information of what people involved in the process of land
     claims and restitution felt about the process. This would in turn
     assist the Committee to recommend what should be done to remedy
     the situation. The decision to undertake the visit came as a
     result of numerous calls from different communities affected by
     land claims and restitution. The communities wanted members of the
     Committee to see for themselves what progress had been made so
     far.


 B.     Findings


     1. Delegation


          The delegation members were Ms B Thompson, Mrs N J Vilikazi
          and Mr R M Nyakane, accompanied by the Committee Secretary, Mr
          M Nguqu.


     2. Background


          The Committee approached the Regional Office of the Commission
          for the Restitution of Land Rights (the Commission) to arrange
          a visit in respect of settled claims. As the Committee had
          previously undertaken a visit, it specifically requested that
          there be continuity and that the same projects be visited.
          During 2000 the Committee visited the Cremin project outside
          Ladysmith and the Nazareth Community outside Rorkesdrift.


     3. Meeting with Regional Land Claims Commissioner


          Before the delegation visited communities, members had a brief
          meeting with the Regional Land Claims Commissioner (the
          Commissioner), Ms Thabi Shange. She outlined the progress made
          so far with land claims and restitution, and the frustration
          experienced by communities. She recommended that the Committee
          look at claims in different regional councils or district
          municipality areas. In addition, she informed the Committee
          that the claims recommended highlighted the different routes
          that those claims could take. On the one hand, a claim is
          settled in the Land Claims Court, while on the other hand a
          claim can be settled via the administrative route - section
          42D of the Restitution of Land Rights Act (No 22 of 1994), in
          terms of which the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs
          (the Minister) ratifies an out-of-court settlement between the
          claimants and the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs
          (the Department).


          For the above reason, the Cremin and the Baynesfield
          restitution settlements were selected for the visit.


     4. Cremin Land Restitution Project


          (a) Historical background


              The Mayibuye Cremin Restitution claim comprises 114
              landowners of the farm Trekboer No 4225, commonly known
              as Cremin, who were expropriated (dispossessed) by the
              previous government. On 26 April 1995 the Mayibuye 1
              Cremin Committee lodged a land claim on behalf of the
              dispossessed landowners with the Commission. The claim
              was accepted as complying with the terms of the Act, and
              on 30 June 1995 the Commissioner gazetted the claim in
              terms of section 11(1).


              On 16 May 1996 the Committee, acting on behalf of the
              claimants, entered into a deed of settlement, which
              outlined that the State should restore the land rights to
              the claimants by purchasing the land from the estate of
              the late Derek Dreyer.


              The claimants had been dispossessed of various
              subdivisions and shares in subdivisions of the farm
              Trekboer No 4225. They also held title to undivided
              shares in a commonage. The total area under claim
              therefore was 623,5821 ha in extent, situated about 25 km
              from Ladysmith and approximately seven km from
              Elandslaagte.


          (b) Progress


              After hearing the matter, the Land Claims Court, on 15
              October 1997, approved the restoration of the land to the
              claimants. The cost to the State for acquiring the farm
              was R210 000. The Department appointed personnel to
              facilitate the restoration of individual title deeds to
              the individual claimants. This was successful.


              The Mayibuye 1 Cremin Committee representing the
              claimants had established a trust to hold the commonage
              and those of lots of other landowners. It would also
              assist in facilitating the development of the area.


              The Department had appointed LIMA, a development
              consultancy, to complete a process of preliminary
              planning in consultation with the community. A Joint
              Planning Committee, consisting of all stakeholders, was
              been put in place and is functioning well. A preliminary
              business plan prioritising the community's development
              needs is now in place, and its implementation is under
              way.


              The Department has secured ministerial approval for the
              release of funding to support the settlement and
              development process. The Minister has approved the
              release of a restitution discretionary grant (RDG) to the
              value of R309 000 and a special planning grant (SPG) to
              the value of R138 000.


              Furthermore, the Department entered into a transfer-of-
              funds agreement with District Council 22, whereby the
              latter would use the funds for implementation of the
              preliminary business plan. However, these funds have
              proved to be insufficient for the development and
              settlement process. The Department and District Council
              22 arranged a number of meetings with other line-
              departments in order for them to become actively involved
              in the project and also commit financial and human
              resources to the process.


              The Commission was also approached in this regard, and it
              held bilateral meetings with municipal funding
              organisations and development institutions to try and
              secure additional funding to support the development
              process. The District Council, together with the
              Commission, will take these initiatives forward.


          (c) Financial implications of Project Cremin Budget


              Number of restoration claimant households 103
              Number of people involved 600-900
              Land costs R210 000
              RDG R309 000
              SPG R178 500
              Total funds for project R697 500


     5. Baynesfield Land Restitution Project


          (a) Historical background


              The Baynesfield restitution claim comprises 101 former
              labour tenants of the Baynesfield Estate. It has been
              accepted as a Beneficial Occupation Claim in terms of the
              Act, and on 17 November the Commissioner gazetted the
              claim in terms of section 11(1). This was published in
              the Gazette - Notice 1187 of 1995.


              The Baynesfield Board of Administrators agreed to sell
              portions 104 of the Farm Nelsrust No 849 and Erf 126
              Thornville, 251,9 ha and 13,15 ha in extent,
              respectively, for restoration to the claimants.


              The claimant group is divided into 77 successful
              financial claimants and 24 successful restoration
              claimants.


          (b) Progress


              The Minister approved the agreement prepared by the
              Department in terms of a section 42D of the Act. The
              financial value attached to the individual claims was set
              at R22 872,90 per claimant's household.


              A total of 24 families opted to return to portions 104 of
              Farm Nelsrust 849 and Erf 126 Thornville, which had been
              purchased by the Department from the Baynesfield Estate.
              The total cost of the land was R300 000.


              The 24 families who opted for restoration, have formed
              themselves into a Trust known as the Zwelethu Community
              Trust.


              With a view to housing and agricultural development, the
              estate agreed to release 260 ha of green agricultural
              land.
              The State Attorney is currently processing documents for
              the transfer of the land to the Trust.


              All 77 families who opted for financial compensation,
              have been paid by iThala. A report is being prepared by
              iThala Bank and will be verified by the official who had
              monitored the process.


              The provincial Department of Land Affairs has negotiated
              with District Council 22 that the restoration group would
              manage the implementation of Portion 104 of Farm Nelsrust
              849 and erf 126 Thornville. This has been approved at
              Executive Committee level (Resolution 10 - 1 February
              2001). District Council 22 has further agreed to enter
              into a transfer agreement with the provincial Land Reform
              Office and the Commission in order to assist with the
              implementation of the project. The Commission agreed with
              the District Council that the remainder of the planning
              grant funds would be released to the latter through a
              transfer-of-funds agreement.


              The Commission formulated a Joint Planning Committee,
              comprising the District Council and the Departments of
              Agriculture and of Housing, to attend to the planning of
              the project and to further develop the preliminary
              business plan.


          (c) Financial implications of Project Baynesfield


              Number of restoration
              claimant households 24
              Individual claimant allowance 22 827,90
              Total restoration allowance R547 827,60
              Land purchase price R300 000
              Balance of capital funds R247 869,60


              The above capital funds balance has been transferred to
              the Zwelethu Community Trust.


              The total amounts budgeted for the Restitution
              Discretionary and Special Planning Grants were R72 000
              and R34 560, respectively. This development funding is to
              be transferred to the District Council in terms of a
              transfer-of-funds agreement for Integrated Development
              Planning purposes.


 C.     Conclusions


     A number of issues, which were highlighted during the discussions
     on 24 and 25 May 2001, require urgent attention at senior
     management level and at programming co-ordination level. The
     following issues were common to both projects:


     1. The claimants were frustrated by long delays between dates of
         signature and implementation.


     2. While the claimants noted that the preliminary business plans
          were in place, they noted that these needed updating and that
          they required implementation schedules.


     3. The biggest issue related to prioritisation and top-up funding
          from the District Council.


     4. In the case of Cremin, this was very severe. Despite the fact
          that the project was brought to the attention of the District
          Council in 1998 and a formal transfer-of-funds agreement was
          entered into between the Department and the District Council,
          this project was not on any of the Council's lists for funding
          in respect of basic service delivery.


     5. In the case of Baynesfield, title deed registration has been
          delayed in the State Attorney's office.


     6. There is a dire need to secure further adequate funding from
          other government departments.


 D.     Recommendations


     The following recommendations were made during the course of
     discussions on 24 and 25 May 2001:


     1. The Commission should arrange a meeting between the Executive
          Major, the Local Councillor and the senior Management of the
          District Council to address the issue of prioritisation in
          respect of the projects for funding.


     2. The Commission should also commit itself to assist the Mayibuye
          1 Cremin Trust to approach other development funding
          organisations for top-up funding for projects like the
          reconstruction of the school.


     3. The Committee should approach the Minister to encourage greater
          co-ordination on land reform and basic services delivery
          between local government structures and the Department.


     4. It is further suggested that the national departments of land
          affairs and of local government should enter into a Memorandum
          of Understanding that would ensure the prioritisation of land
          reform projects and the guaranteeing of funds for land reform
          projects.
                      TUESDAY, 16 OCTOBER 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Trade and
     Industry in the National Assembly on 16 October 2001 and referred
     to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
     of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Lotteries Amendment Bill [B 81 - 2001] (National Assembly
          - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No 22743 of 10
          October 2001.]


     The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and
     Industry of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bills passed by National Assembly on 16 October 2001 and transmitted
 for concurrence:


 (1)    Pension Funds Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2001] (National
     Assembly - sec 75).


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of
     the National Council of Provinces.


 (2)    Stock Exchanges Control Amendment Bill [B 75 - 2001] (National
     Assembly - sec 75).


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of
     the National Council of Provinces.

1. The Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Third Interim Report of the South African Law Commission on
     Simplification of Criminal Procedure (The right of the Director of
     Public Prosecutions to appeal on question of fact), Project 73 [RP
     58-2001].


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Public Services:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Transport for
     2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of Vote 33 - Transport for 2000-2001 [RP 159-
     2001].