National Assembly - 14 February 2002
THURSDAY, 14 FEBRUARY 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
VICTIMS OF TRAIN ACCIDENT
The SPEAKER: Order! I would ask members to remember also the victims and families of the KwaZulu-Natal train accident disaster who are now joined in a memorial service, even as we meet here.
PRESIDENT'S ADDRESS
(Resumption of Debate on Subject for Discussion)
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, hon members, when we addressed the National Assembly on the occasion of the budget debate of the Presidency last year, we said the following (Hansard 2001, col 5140):
Since 1994, this Parliament has considered various White Papers and other policy initiatives and approved hundreds of laws focused on the creation of the policy guidelines and the legislative framework that would guide us as a government in carrying through our process of reconstruction and development. … the Government is firmly of the view that, substantially, we have elaborated the policy, legislative and constitutional base that will enable us to achieve the transformation of South Africa …
Of course, there are a number of areas that continue to receive attention as we seek to finalise our policy and other positions. We said then that:
Work on these and other issues will proceed apace.
Accordingly, the central challenge we face as the Government is the task of implementation. The order of the day is that we take all necessary measures to ensure that the policy and legislative measures for the reconstruction and development of our country that have been already been adopted are further translated into an actual process of the transformation of our society …
To summarise the message we seek to communicate to this House and to the country today, it is simply this: Let us get down to the serious business of work - working together to create a new South Africa; working together to build a country free of racism and sexism; working together to end poverty, unemployment and the social marginalisation of many of our people; working together to give an example to the whole world that, as a people, we have the capacity to succeed, however difficult the challenges we face. The order of the day is to get down to the serious business of working together for change.
Almost eight months later, when we spoke at the opening of Parliament last Friday, we said the following:
Of decisive importance to the millions of our people and the future of our country, as we meet here today, the central question we will have to answer at the end of the day is whether what we are doing as the legislature, the executive, the judiciary, the fourth estate and civil society, is helping to lift from the shoulders of our people the intolerable burden of poverty and underdevelopment.
We further said, and I quote:
This fourth opening session of our second democratic Parliament, including the debate that will take place next week, must answer this question in a frank, honest and forthright manner.
As we conclude the debate on the state of the nation address, I would like to reiterate these two observations. The first is that the order of the day is to get down to the serious business of working together for change. The second is that the central question we have to answer is whether what we are doing is helping to lift from the shoulders of our people the intolerable burden of poverty and underdevelopment.
What we reported to Parliament and the country on Friday was precisely that the Government has got down to the serious business of work. The further programme of work for the Government this year, as indicated in that report, will be carried out.
I am also very pleased to see that the masses of our people have themselves responded very well to the call to get down to the serious business of working together for change. During the debate, the hon Douglas Gibson correctly pointed out the need for all us to inform the people of their rights. These people have, in addition, also understood their duties and obligations to themselves, their families and the nation and demonstrated this in many ways.
In the period since I addressed Parliament last week, there has been a groundswell from ordinary South Africans, all of them keen to lend a hand for a better life.
In a newspaper report of 11 February, we read that, and I quote:
Residents are getting their hands dirty in an attempt to help curb crime in the countryÿ.ÿ.ÿ. More than 500 residents, mostly unemployed, arrived at Moroka police station on Friday armed with cleaning equipment. They were joined by plain-clothed police officers in cleaning up the station. And from today Soweto spokesperson Superintendent Richard Luvhengo said the volunteers would be distributed according to their expertise. Some, he said would be taken for roadblocks and other for patrolling. Some will join the police as they patrol the Soweto area, some will do administrative work in offices and some will join police who will be conducting roadblocks and doing searches.
The superintendent said, and I quote:
``We feel very proud about the support we are getting from the community. It shows that the community have their trust in us and they understand that together we can curb the level of crime in this area,’’ said Luvhengo.
We must thank the people of this area for their hard work. Such sterling efforts by the people of Soweto have been complemented by similar initiatives that have sprung up through the length and breadth of our country.
In Nkaisane, KwaZulu-Natal, the primary schools have all been cleaned by the community. In Ward 1 of the Mshwati municipality, a farmer, Mr Warner, has offered to electrify and install toilets in all six schools in the municipality free of charge. [Applause.] I am told that he has already completed one of the schools, and he is left with five.
In Bloemfontein, the Batho and Heidedal police stations were painted and cleaned by the people of these areas, and this Friday Letsema goes to Welkom where there will also be a march against crime.
In a police station called Breyten in Mpumalanga, 100 people have registered as reservists in the last few days. In the Eastern Cape, the Breidbach community in King William’s Town has started cleaning their primary school, and in East London, on 9 February alone, about 400 people turned up at the Fleet Street police station to assist as volunteers. [Applause.]
In the North West province, in the village of Gopane, members of the community have started moving around unblocking toilets in schools in the area. Yesterday in the North West province 42 young people registered as reservists at Lomanyaneng police station in Mafikeng.
Professionals have also responded in creative ways to the call. I have been told, for instance, that one professional woman auditor has donated funds to be used for materials needed for the Letsema programme. I have also been told about an IT specialist in Midrand who is prepared to go anywhere in the country to assist with IT problems in the schools.
Let us unlock the dormant talent and experience in our country and field our full team, retired people, working people, the unemployed, the youth, parliamentarians and everyone, to lend a hand for a better life. These are only a few examples that we as South Africans can be proud of, that enable us to say with full confidence that our people are prepared to strengthen their partnership with Government, to make a difference and to contribute in creative ways to improve their lives.
Hon members of this House and their parties will have to answer the questions from themselves practically as to whether they are part of the important process and the popular movement of constructive engagement in the reconstruction and development of our country. In this regard I would like to express my appreciation to those members of the House who have, in fact, already joined in this campaign of Letsema and Vuk’uzenzele, and encourage them to sustain this involvement as indicated by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
I would also like to thank other members who have encouraged continued involvement in the volunteer campaign and those such as the hon Mfundisi who spoke up about the need for us to encourage a spirit of self-reliance among our people.
In the state of the nation address, we sought to focus both Parliament and the country as a whole on the critical issue of the struggle against poverty and underdevelopment. This is a matter of central concern to many millions of our people, characteristic of the ``people of the south’’ about whom the hon Jeremy Cronin spoke.
Last Sunday I was interviewed by the national broadcaster on elements of the state of the nation. In a programme lasting three quarters of an hour not a single question was posed about this fundamental issue of poverty and underdevelopment. It is difficult to tell whether this was a mere oversight or whether it tells the story of a lack of concern for and a dismissive attitude about a matter which in reality stands at the heart of the birth of the new society that we are trying to build.
I would like to thank the hon Dowry and other members who addressed this matter and assure them that we have noted seriously the concerns that they have expressed. These include the hon members Rev Meshoe, Louis Green and Pandelani Nefolovhodwe, who raised the important question of the need to improve the quality of the houses that we provide and the communities we seek to build.
I would also like to thank the hon members Prof Ripinga and Langa Zita for raising the important issue of science and technology and its relevance to the struggle for development and pushing back the frontiers of poverty and underdevelopment. Under the leadership of hon Minister Ben Ngubane and Deputy Minister Brigitte Mabandla, the Government will undertake a comprehensive review of this important sector to ensure that we correctly position and resource science and technology, research and development, as a central driver in the process of the modernisation of our country and the creation of a better life for all.
Once more the Government has recommitted itself to pursuing the microeconomic programmes we announced last year, including the private and public sector investment. Among other things, we will continue to focus on the expansion and modernisation of our social and economic infrastructure. I am convinced that the forthcoming growth summit will make an important contribution to these economic processes.
As we indicated on Friday, important new interventions will also be made in the areas of microfinance for productive purposes, small and medium business and black economic empowerment. Furthermore, more progress will be made with regard to the implementation of the integrated and sustainable rural development and urban renewal programmes.
All of these initiatives address the issues of economic growth and development and job creation. They are necessarily, therefore, focused on the central question of pushing back the frontiers of poverty and expanding access to a better life. In this regard, whatever the difficulties, the Government will do what it says it will do. We have also said that we will do everything possible to ensure that those entitled to receive social grants, including the elderly, children and the disabled, receive what is due to them. We will also focus on the issue of the completion of the work concerned with the consideration of a comprehensive social security system. In this connection, the Government will also ensure that the pensioners who did not obtain their pensions because of delays in their registration also get what is due to them. [Applause.] An additional appropriation of R2 billion will therefore be made by the end of March 2002 to provide for back payments to these elderly citizens.
I would also like to thank the hon Minister Buthelezi and others who drew attention to the importance of the grants to the poor and urge that all members of the House join in the campaign for the speedy registration of those entitled to these grants. With regard to the delayed pension payments, I must make the point strongly that it is intolerable and unacceptable that civil servants see fit to act in a cruel and irresponsible manner … [Interjections] [Applause] … that sometimes it takes up to two years for pensioners to be registered. [Applause.] This is in direct contradiction of the letter and spirit of Batho Pele and cannot be allowed to continue. Those who do not want to serve the people should leave the Public Service. [Applause.]
The special task team convened to examine all available information on mortality and the burden of disease will complete its work soon. This will assist the Government to conduct a proper review of its health policies and ensure that all elements of its work that bear on the health of our people are properly synchronised and co-ordinated. This will also help greatly to focus correctly the process we mentioned last Friday of our interaction with the pharmaceutical industry to implement our agreement with them to provide affordable drugs and medicines and to strengthen our health infrastructure. Once again, with regard to these and other matters we mentioned on Friday, the Government will do what it says it will do.
As agreed with the traditional leaders, a White Paper on the traditional system of government will be published this year, among other things dealing with the issue of the role and place of traditional leaders in our democratic society. This will enable our country, as a whole, to contribute to this important discussion and the finalisation of all matters in this sphere. I am pleased to say that we have agreed with the chairperson of the National House of Traditional Leaders, Nkosi Mzimela, that he will undertake a special study on this matter elsewhere on our continent to assist us in the correct resolution of all outstanding issues.
Various members, including Pieter Mulder and the hon Cassie Aucamp, called for continued attention to the issue of the role and place of Afrikaners in our society. Our own starting point on this matter is the position explained by the hon Adv Dirk Bakker, who said his children are the children of the new South Africa, that Afrikaners belong to South Africa as much as anybody else and that they are part of the solution, and therefore not part of any problem. It is as South Africans, who share a common nationhood and destiny, that we have to continue address the issue of national reconciliation and the building of a nonracial society.
Hon Minister Buthelezi called on all of us to be really united in addressing our common challenges, while recognising and respecting our diverse voices. Others, like the hon Marthinus Van Schalkwyk, spoke correctly about the need for us to provide hope rather than promote hopelessness. This challenge faces all of us. I trust that all of us will respond positively to this constructive leadership directed at building a better South Africa.
Urging us to start anew as one people - as she writes, ``to shiver in the colour of human’’ - the poet and writer Antjie Krog has written:
Hoe word jy heel Hoe word jy vrygemaak in begrip Hoe maak jy goed Hoe sny jy skoon Hoe na kan die tong tilt aan teerheid Of die wang aan versoening ‘n Punt ‘n lyn wat sê: van hier af van die moment af gaan dit anders klink want al ons woorde lê naas mekaar op die tafel bibberend van die kleur van mens ons weet nou mekaar mekaar se kopvel en reuk, mekaar se bloed ons weet die diepste geluide wat mekaar se niere maak in die nag ons is stadig mekaar opnuut nuut en hier begin dit
Or, as the hon Sunklavathy Rajbally said, ``Siyaya!’’ [forward!] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The SPEAKER: Order! Before we proceed I wish to express appreciation for this Valentine [Laughter.] [Applause.] I am very glad to note that the benefactor is not a sexist and, at least, the hon the Minister of Home Affairs shares the affection. [Applause.]
ALLOCATION OF SPEAKING TIMES
(Draft Resolution) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, with leave, I amend the motion printed on the Order Paper by deleting the second paragraph. I therefore move as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 106, the following times be allocated for party responses to today’s statement by the Minister of Finance:
African National Congress: 5 minutes; Democratic Party: 4 minutes;
Inkatha Freedom Party: 4 minutes; New National Party: 3 minutes; United
Democratic Movement: 2 minutes; all other parties: 1 minute each.
Agreed to.
APPOINTMENT OF CURATOR FOR SAAMBOU BANK
(Statement)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, Mr President, Deputy President, members of Parliament, South Africans all, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to address Parliament on what is clearly a very sensitive issue for so many South Africans, namely the crisis affecting depositors at Saambou.
At close of business on Saturday, 9 February, I placed Saambou Bank under curatorship. This was a difficult decision arrived at after considering a range of options.
I start from the premise that managing a bank is more than merely running a business for profit. Banks manage the savings of depositors. They can only perform this function if very high levels of trust exist between the institution and its depositors. For this reason, banks perform a profoundly important social function.
This is the basic premise of the Banks Act. Banks are therefore licensed to perform this function. The condition of the licence in every instance is that the holders are fit and proper and indeed understand that they perform a social function. The licence requires the bank to comply with a set of criteria, including maintaining capital adequacy and filing regular returns with the Registrar of Banks, located at the SA Reserve Bank. This entire system is designed to maintain the elements of trust and confidence. When these elements are eroded, options have to be evaluated. This is what happened in respect of Saambou this past weekend.
It is important to emphasise that South Africa’s banking system is essentially sound. We have 41 registered banks, and the breach of confidence at Saambou is an exception. The health of our banking system has been confirmed in an independent financial sector assessment undertaken jointly by the IMF and the World Bank, which concluded that South Africa has a sound banking and regulatory environment, and that the SA Reserve Bank’s lender-of-last-resort procedures are appropriate and well designed.
Recently, both Standard & Poor’s and Moody’s, the two big international rating agencies, reaffirmed the soundness of South Africa’s financial system. Of particular importance here is the fact that all rating agencies have cited South Africa’s robust financial system as a key credit strength.
The decision to appoint the curator to Saambou Bank on Saturday was taken in the public interest, primarily to stem the abnormal outflow of funds from the bank which created liquidity pressures on the bank, and secondly to stabilise a precarious situation which threatened the funds of all depositors.
Our actions were designed to protect the funds of depositors, in the wake of a marked loss of confidence in the bank and its management. In examining options, we firmly held the view that to commit Government to financial assistance to Saambou Bank would not be prudent, as there was no guarantee either that those funds would restore confidence or that those funds would not be utilised to fund further large net outflows from depositors’ funds out of the bank.
Government views its responsibility as protecting the interests of depositors - the widows, the workers and small businesses - and not to bail out shareholders, who in any event assume the risk of their investment. Curatorship was considered the mechanism which would best provide a certain cost-effective and immediate solution.
Taking this decision was not without difficulties, the most glaring of which was the freezing of all accounts to enable the curator to acquaint himself with all of the detail. The appointment of the curator would also facilitate the orderly management of the bank’s liquidity situation. I want to apologise to depositors for this inconvenience, but say at the same time that this action is in their best interest.
The curator must now facilitate the orderly management of the bank. The appointment of the curator vests the management of Saambou in him, subject to the supervision of the Registrar of Banks. The curator, Mr John Louw, is also required to recover and take possession of the assets of Saambou.
This situation is being handled sympathetically. Already the curator, in a statement dated 12 February 2002, stated, and I quote:
With regard to deposits made subsequent to the imposition of curatorship on 9 February 2002, including salaries, the curator is in the process of putting in place procedures to allow depositors full access to all such deposit transactions.
The same will apply to pensions which will be deposited into accounts at Saambou banks. Similarly, too, Mr Louw is sympathetic to the position of people who live off interest from deposits placed with Saambou.
The Registrar of Banks has advised that his office has no reason to believe that Saambou is insolvent. The public should understand that the placing of Saambou under curatorship did not relieve persons who have contractual obligations with the bank from punctually meeting them. Accordingly, people with financial commitments in respect of home mortgages, business loans, vehicle finance, microloans, etc, must continue to meet these obligations.
The curator is acting as quickly as possible to address the pressing needs of depositors. Of the 520 000 depositors at Saambou Bank, 292 000 have accounts of R4 000 or less and are able to withdraw their full amounts if they so wish. Furthermore, the curator is now turning his attention to how to assist hardship circumstances and will make an announcement in this regard as soon as he is able to. He will ensure that announcements are regularly made through the media to keep all depositors informed.
The act of curatorship is the placement of this bank in intensive care. The institution must be nursed back to strong health. Most important must be the interests of the depositors, as I said before - the workers, the widows and the small businesses. They are uppermost in our mind. There are, of course, also those who have been affected by the freezing of their accounts. They are the people who need our support as we commit ourselves to nursing this bank back to good health.
In these circumstances I want to appeal to all South Africans to remain calm. The curator, Mr John Louw, is a sympathetic, caring and highly professional curator. [Applause.]
Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, first of all I would like to place on record my thanks to the Chief Whip of the Democratic Alliance, Mr Douglas Gibson, for requesting that time be made available in this House to discuss this important matter.
The collapse of Saambou Bank is the biggest ever in South Africa’s history, with potentially disastrous consequences for its 520 000 depositors and 2 400 employees. Ordinary people are the victims. We must not let this matter rest until we know why the seventh largest bank in South Africa has failed and who is responsible for that.
It is not, however, only a problem about people getting access to their money; there are other issues with much wider ramifications. Saambou is only one of a number of banks which have run into trouble over the past few years - at least six in the last two-and-half years alone. The reasons for these problems and failures require urgent investigation.
South Africa rightly prides itself on its sound and sophisticated financial institutions and systems. While none of the bank crises have presented a systemic risk to our banking system, continual problems of this sort will erode confidence in our financial institutions at home and abroad. This is the last thing we can afford. We dare not be seen to have endemic banking crises, even if only smaller banks peripheral to the whole system are involved.
Coming on top of the collapse in the value of the rand late last year, we cannot let there be any doubt about the soundness of our banking, if serious harm is to be avoided.
In June 2000 the Governor of the Reserve Bank appointed a panel of experts under the chairmanship of Judge Dennis Davis, consisting of six local and foreign experts. The panel was required to investigate aspects of the Reserve Bank’s lifeboat granted to Bankorp a decade or so ago.
In addition, the panel was asked to recommend guidelines for the Reserve Bank in respect of future assistance to banks which were experiencing difficulties. The report was completed and handed over in October of last year. What has happened? Why has it not been released? When is it going to be released? Have the recommended guidelines been followed in the Saambou case? There are a myriad unanswered questions.
A newspaper report on Tuesday said, and I quote:
Outraged Saambou account holders gathered outside the Waterkant Street Branch in the city centre yesterday in the hope of accessing their money. Most stared in disbelief at the ``closed until further notice’’ curator’s note posted on the front door.
They stared in disbelief because their confidence in our banking system had been shaken, if not shattered. This was no hole-in-the-wall, fly-by-night operation, but a well-established, large bank. All the relevant authorities and role-players must move swiftly, not only to minimise the loss of confidence in our banking system - I thank the hon the Minister for his statement today - but also to ensure that depositors at Saambou get access to all their money, including their interest, as soon as possible.[Applause.]
Dr G G WOODS: Madam Speaker, this has been a very fast-moving story, if one thinks it was only last Friday when Fitch put out its regrading of the seven small banks. There was a degree of panic. I think we saw that in the weekend newspapers. There were speculations from some quarters - unreasonable speculations - of the banking system unravelling. But I think what we have seen in the past few days is a number of important interventions by influential players who have stabilised the situation. I think we had a reaffirmation of our banking sector as being strong, stable, and well-regulated. We owe something to those people who intervened.
The reaffirmation relates mostly to the large banks. I think their share prices tell a story, including the Nedcor results. The Minister referred to the Standard & Poor’s reaffirmation that came out earlier this week as well. Narrowing that down to the smaller banks in question, some of which were flagged with a new degree of risk by Fitch, of course, and Saambou, which I will get to in a moment, I think there again most of those banks have argued their cases, and have also stabilised their situation. This brings us down to Saambou. I think it is important that we have put them in the context of what this is all about, and that is what helps us restabilise the situation.
Saambou has been showing a number of bad signs for some time now which have been mentioned in the press. We have seen the falling share price, the inability of Investec to sell its section, the rumours about the microlending industry and the rather large book carried by Saambou. We saw Fitch’s assessment during the previous month, where they warned about issues relating to the profitability, asset quality and capital adequacy of Saambou. We have seen that the chief executive sold 200 000 of his own shares in August last year; and Saambou itself issued a profit warning, etc. So the signs were clearly there. I think the first set of questions we must ask if we want to continue reaffirming the solidity and stability of our banking industry is about why a number of these question were not taken a little further. I think there are people we have to look to when posing those questions.
Firstly, there is the management of Saambou, and a number of corporate governance angles need to be picked up here. Why did they not react more strongly to those signs? I think the Banking Council too should ask why and how they responded to those signs, and even the bank regulators. I think enough has been said about the credit agencies, particularly Fitch, who, I think we all agree, acted somewhat irresponsibly. Even though they had reason to reassess the situation, they should have done it in a more responsible way and they should have consulted with Saambou itself.
There are a number of other parties which we see are being spoken about, parties possibly involved in insider trading, rogue brokers involved in the microlending market, suspicious share transactions, which the JSE is looking into, and, of course, the media. I think that during the weekend the media perhaps took it a little further than they should have.
The second set of question relates to what we should have done about it - what the options were. I think this is what confronted the Minister. He had to look at what the Reserve Bank was putting on the table - a R500 million loan or package. We do consider this in the light of the Reserve Bank, the central bank, being the bank of last resort, which has a kind of a responsibility in this particular development. But, I think, on balance we do support the Minister and do agree that this is taxpayers’ money and one has to think very carefully about the risks that would have been attached to those taxpayers’ moneys. But we do think that his courageous decision, which was not an easy decision, does have a down-side to it, that it will not necessarily stabilise Saambou to the point we wanted it stabilised and nurse it back to good health, as the Minister put it.
Saambou will no doubt come out of this a much smaller bank, with a much weaker balance sheet, which is likely to deteriorate further. Its current ratio will deteriorate and there will be a liquidity squeeze. I think commentators who are authorities on the banking sector are predicting this as well. The share price will continue to fall. The bank is never likely to regain its lost market share, so competitive is the market. It has been predicted that the bank will ultimately be sold off in pieces by the curator. Probably the accounts - the 250 000 odd accounts - will go to big banks. The vital microloan industry will shrink further. About 2 400 employees will lose their jobs. The pension policy holders whose investment portfolio through Investec, formerly Fedsure, owns 35% … [Time expired.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, there is far too much moving up and down and far too many private meetings going on. The speakers have difficulty being heard.
Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Minister, hon members of Parliament, the New NP regard the Saambou debacle with serious concern, seeing that a number of other small banks have failed in the recent past.
The curator’s report will provide empirical evidence of allegations regarding the responsibility of directors and whether they conducted themselves in a fit and proper manner. The fact that the Reserve Bank provided the curator with liquidity support will provide some relief to thousands of Saambou clients. Any systemic threat to the South African banking sector must be viewed with serious alarm. South Africa, being an emerging market and a commodity-driven economy, requires sustained foreign direct investment for any future growth.
An urgent appeal is made to the banking sector in general to safeguard the interests of shareholders, clients and employees. Proactive balance sheet management is an integral part of risk control. The question remains as to whether the management of Saambou took adequate measures to protect the interests of their client base.
Consumer protection is essential, especially within the financial sector. Legislation is important. Globalisation calls for universally accepted business norms, but an appeal is made to all role-players: In the future, let us avert the untenable situation that Saambou finds itself in.
My party is of the opinion that the hon the Minister of Finance took the proper course of action. [Applause.]
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, hon members of the Cabinet and hon members, we offer our sympathy to depositors and employees of Saambou bank, who have been caught unawares in this crisis.
The UDM remains a fervent supporter of a vibrant and properly regulated microlending industry. We remain convinced that providing access to capital for the many millions of people who were excluded by past racial policies is critical to the future success of our economy. Both the Government and the banking industry have crucial responsibilities in this regard. It is a great concern to us that credible microlending institutions in the formal banking sector are finding themselves in difficulty.
We will support any measure by this Government and the Reserve Bank that ensures the integrity of our financial sector. Lessons learned from this experience must be implemented to avoid similar disasters in future. We appeal to the hon the Minister of Finance to ensure that credible microlending remains part of the formal banking sector. In their absence, the despicable practices of unscrupulous loan sharks will flourish at the expense of poor people who are locked out of the formal banking sector.
The UDM proposes that the Minister of Finance give consideration to investigating a deposit guarantee system in South Africa. Either the private sector or the SA Reserve Bank could be considered to carry responsibility for the premium of such a guarantee. Such a system may assist to stabilise the real concerns of individual investors at this point in time, and will also promote the investor confidence that the Minister has referred to in protecting the interests of investors.
The microlending industry or, more broadly speaking, access of capital to poor people, was again highlighted with this crisis, and we appeal to the Minister and to all of us to really address this industry so that we can make sure that the investors are protected.
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and members, the ACDP supports and approves Government’s actions thus far on the Saambou crisis, as well as the swift action by the authorities concerned. We support the view expressed by the Minister of Finance today concerning the soundness of our country’s banking system. We trust that what has happened to Saambou will not taint the image of our banking system internationally.
We appeal to the curator of Saambou, Mr John Louw, to ensure that all depositors, especially those who live off the interests of deposits, do not suffer any loss. We appeal to the curator, the Registrar of Banks and the FSB to investigate, firstly, the whole question of possible insider trading; secondly, the share scheme of Saambou in which they were apparently selling shares on credit to the personnel at a premium; thirdly, the predatory market activities of debt mediating and administration orders; and, finally, whether the directors of Saambou fulfilled their responsibilities. Everything must be done to prevent loss by depositors and to underpin the integrity of our banking system.
Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, die VF verwelkom die verklaring deur die agb Minister van Finansies vandag. Ons dink dit was goed en gepas. Dit kon miskien vroeër gewees het, indien moontlik, omdat dit so belangrik is dat vertroue in die bankstelsel so vinnig as moontlik herstel word en dat daar geen twyfel daaroor is nie. Ons verwelkom die benadering dat daar spesifiek klem geplaas word op die belange van deposante by die bank, die gewone werker en die mense wat daar belê het. Dit is die mense wat geraak word deur die situasie en wat dit nie kan bekostig om in ‘n situasie te verkeer waarin hulle hul tans bevind nie.
Vir ‘n land soos Suid-Afrika is dit geweldig belangrik dat die banksektor gesond sal wees. In 1998 in Rusland ná die ineenstorting van die bankwese het dit tot gevolg gehad dat daar tot vandag toe nog nie werklik vertroue in die bankstelsel is nie. Dit het ‘n geweldige uitwerking op die gemeenskap. Dit is nodig om te sê dat ons in Suid-Afrika dit nie vir een oomblik kan bekostig nie en daarom verwelkom ons hierdie benadering. Die enigste manier om die vertroue in Saambou te herstel, sou, indien dit moontlik sou wees, wees dat geen enkele belegger in die proses enigiets finansieel sal verloor nie. Dit is die enigste wyse wat ons glo werklik mense se vertroue sal herstel in die bankwese. Ons steun dit. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, the FF welcomes the statement made today by the hon the Minister of Finance. We thought it was good and fitting. Perhaps it could have come sooner, if possible, because it is so important that confidence be restored in the banking system as soon as possible and that there be no doubt about this. We welcome the approach that specific emphasis is being placed on the interests of the depositors at the bank, the ordinary worker and the people who invested there. These are the people who are affected by the situation and who cannot afford to remain in the situation in which they currently find themselves.
For a country such as South Africa it is extremely important that the banking sector is sound. The collapse of banking in Russia in 1998 resulted in the fact that even today there is still not really any confidence in the banking system. This has an enormous effect on the community. It is necessary to say that in South Africa we cannot afford this for one moment, and therefore we welcome this approach. The only way in which to restore confidence in Saambou, if indeed it is possible, would be for no single investor to lose anything financially in the process. This is the only way that we believe people will have their faith in banking restored. We support this.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and colleagues, the volatility in the South African banking system in the past six years has seen six small banks hit the skids. In the case of the debacle surrounding Saambou, hope that the bank has sufficient finances to service its clients is found in the fact that the SA Reserve Bank did not intervene.
Areas that will need attention, however, are the cutting down of complaints by unsatisfied clients, among which are high bank charges, inadequate customer service in handling complaints and banking documents not in plain language.
We hope, however, that the Minister of Finance will in future look into the integrity of management of small banks and ensure that the central bank and his Ministry put in place supervisory measures that will assist in detecting shortcommings in banks early enough to avoid a recurrence of such a crisis.
The UCDP welcomes the assurance by the Minister that the curator has the interests of the clients as his top priority.
Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, the PAC wants to commend the Minister of Finance for placing Saambou under curatorship. We have seen many sad faces on television over the past few days. The interests of depositors are paramount, not only those of shareholders. People work hard for their money and place their money in the bank for safety and not mismanagement.
It seems from press reports that management inside the bank was aware of possible problems, but did not act. The PAC hopes that a proper investigation will be conducted by the curator, Mr Louw, and that there will then be a report to the depositors and to the country as a whole.
Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mevrou die Speaker, die FA wil die beleggers van Saambou en alle ander banke verseker dat ons alles in ons vermoë sal doen om toe te sien dat die Saamboudebakel behoorlik ondersoek word. Ons wil weet watter rol die graderingsagentskap gespeel het om ‘n gerug te versprei en hoe agentskappe en finansiële joernaliste se uitsprake gedissiplineer kan word. Ons wil ook die portefeuljekomitee versoek om sy oorsigfunksie na te kom en sy eie ondersoek na hierdie saak te loods.
Ons as parlementslede het ‘n plig teenoor Suid-Afrikaners om te sorg dat hulle geld in veilige hande is wanneer hulle dit in banke belê. Ons het nie vertroue in ‘n regering wat nie kan toesien dat die rand sterk bly nie. Ons het nie vertroue in ‘n regering wat nie misdaad kan bekamp nie en ook nie in ‘n regering wat nie medisyne aan vigslyers kan gee nie.
Die FA dring daarop aan dat die portefeuljekomitee die saak ondersoek en sy eie verslag oor Saambou en die bankwese ter tafel lê. As sterker wetgewing nodig is, moet die Parlement dit weet en voorsien. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, the FA wants to assure the investors of Saambou and all other banks that we will do everything within our power to see to it that the Saambou debacle is properly investigated. We want to know what role the rating agency played in spreading a rumour and how statements by agencies and financial journalists can be disciplined. We also want to request the portfolio committee to fulfil its oversight function and to launch its own investigation into this matter. We as members of Parliament have a duty towards South Africans to see to it that their money is in safe hands when they invest it in banks. We do not have confidence in a government which cannot see to it that the rand remains strong. We do not have confidence in a government which cannot combat crime and also not in a government which cannot give medicine to Aids sufferers.
The FA insists that the portfolio committee investigates the matter and tables its own report on Saambou and the banking industry. If tougher legislation is required, Parliament must know this and provide it.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, the Saambou dilemma has certainly been at the centre of attention in our newspapers, on TV and radio talk shows, thus leaving its clients in a frenzy - and who would not be? The MF feels that the matter was dealt with a bit irrationally. This may be seen as the cause of so much panic. We have, however, seen the constant reassurance that Saambou is not bankrupt.
The MF feels that placing Saambou under curatorship will be a good move in ensuring that Saambou does not run into bankruptcy and that masses of depositors in panic or in fear of the loss of their investments do not rush to withdraw them, basically avoiding a run on the bank. Though this matter may be most disillusioning to investors, the public may be reassured by hearing that the IMD in Switzerland has noted the South African banking sector as having being constantly ranked among the top ten in terms of its competitiveness. The MF thanks the Minister of Finance for the quick action taken. [Applause.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, persoonlik is ek baie teleurgesteld in die Minister se aankondiging, want ek het ‘n verband by Saambou en nou sê die Minister: ``People with commitments will have to continue to meet them’’. So ek sal maar moet betaal. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, I personally am very disappointed in the Minister’s announcement, seeing that I have a bond at Saambou, and the Minister is saying: ``People with commitments will have to continue to meet them.’’ So I will just have to pay up.]
The Minister of Finance is quoted in the press as having said that every time a company was in trouble, it should not be automatically expected that the Government should bail it out.
Hierdie aanhaling het my ‘n bietjie bekommerd gestem, want ‘n bank is nie maar net ‘n maatskappy nie, maar ‘n trustee van die publiek. Indien ‘n bank terminaal siek is, kan ek die optrede verstaan. Dit help nie om goeie geld agter slegte geld aan te gooi nie. As dit net ‘n geval is van ‘n kontantvloeiprobleem, dan is dit sekerlik die plig van die Reserwebank om ook daar te kan help.
Dit blyk egter nou dat daar ‘n baie sterk moontlikheid is van bestuurswanpraktykte. Ek kan nie verstaan hoe ‘n mens aan personeel geld kan leen om aandele te koop nie. ‘n Mens koop nie aandele op skuld nie en dit nou buiten dat die direkteure self hulle s’n verkoop het.
Daarom wil ek vra dat ‘n kommissie aangestel word wat die gebeure rondom Saambou sal ondersoek en ook die Minister se optrede duidelik en bo alle twyfel kan uitklaar. In hierdie stadium glo ons hom, maar sodat daar vir altyd gesê kan word dat daar in belang van die publiek opgetree is. Laat so ‘n kommissie nagaan hoe optrede verhoed kan word en hoe die vertroue in ons banke herstel kan word. Dit is die AEB se versoek, sodat ons hierdie saak onafhanklik kan ondersoek. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[This quote made me feel somewhat concerned, because surely a bank is not just a company, but also a trustee of the public. If a bank is terminally ill, I can understand the action. It serves no purpose to throw good money after bad. If it is only a case of a cash-flow problem, then surely it is the duty of the Reserve Bank to lend assistance there.
It appears, however, that there is a very strong possibility of management malpractice. I cannot understand how one can lend staff money to buy shares. One does not buy shares on credit and this is apart from the fact that the directors themselves sold theirs.
For that reason I want to ask for the appointment of a commission of inquiry into the events concerning Saambou so as to clearly and beyond any doubt to explain the Minister’s actions. At this stage we believe him, but just so that it could always be said action was taken in the interests of the public. Allow such a commission to determine how action can be avoided and how confidence in our banks can be restored. This is the AEB’s request, so that we can investigate this matter independently.]
Mr K A MOLOTO: Madam Speaker, Deputy President and hon members, it is always important to keep on reminding ourselves, without equivocation, of the critical roles South African banks play in the industrialisation of this country. Banks are critical intermediaries in the smooth running of our economy and mobilise massive resources for allocation in productive activities.
The South African financial system has a well-established reputation for its liquidity and a tradition of prudent management of assets and liabilities.
It is therefore important to avoid the generalisation of the problems encountered by Saambou Bank. Other smaller banks the size of Saambou have adequate reserves and their assets and liability ratio are consistent with the banking norms and standards already established in the banking sector. It is important to state this fact to dispel any perception of a contagious effect arising from the Saambou problems.
However, it is proper to condemn the irresponsible behaviour of some powerful players in the market who exercise immense power without responsibility. The downgrading of the investment grade of the other smaller banks by Fitch, a rating agency, reflects the exercise of power without responsibility. It is important for rating agencies to exercise due diligence in their investigations and final findings to exercise power with responsibility.
The whole banking sector depends on trust between the depositor and the banks. One is confident that various boards of directors of other smaller banks will continuously review the quality of the loans and investments they undertake and stick to the sound asset and liability ratios which are the cornerstone of our banking system.
It is important to reassure all small depositors that in all cases of banks in financial distress during the 1980s and 1990s, all small depositors were substantially reimbursed. The annual report on banking supervision of the SA Reserve Bank outlines this point quite clearly. There is no reason for panic. The protection of depositors’ interest remains the objective in all measures taken.
The microlending sector obviously had an influence on the events that unfolded in the Saambou problems. It is therefore important that a comprehensive regulatory framework be developed for the microlending sector.
Let us note that the microlending sector plays a critical role in the financing of people from low-income communities. Obviously this is a lucrative market for some smaller banks that have virtually no base of corporate clients and wish to enhance their returns.
It is important to develop a holistic approach to the regulation of the microlending sector with a particular emphasis on the prudential management of its liabilities. However, we should not allow some of these operations to destabilise the South African banking sector.
It is, however, proper to indicate and congratulate the speedy response of the regulators in this country to avert what could have been a systemic risk. [Applause.] The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, after some consultation, as this is a special case, I am allowing the Minister of Finance to read the few lines he forgot from his statement. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, thank you, I will read that as a Valentine’s Day gesture as well, and we thank the DP for conceding to this.
Ek wil namens die Regering al die partye bedank vir hulle bydrae tot hierdie bespreking vanmiddag. Ons moet verhoed dat hierdie aangeleentheid tweespalt onder politieke partye bring. Dit is nie die ANC wat aan die bestuur van Saambou is nie. Die deposante in Saambou kom uit alle oorde. In hierdie omstandighede moet ons almal hande vat en saam besluit hoe ons vorentoe gaan. [Applous.]
Die belangrikste ding wat ons nou moet doen, is om aan die deposante van Saambou te sê dat hul geldjies ons belang is. Ons sal seker maak dat dit nie met die rivier af gaan nie. Ons sal alles in ons vermoë doen om seker te maak dat die werkers, die weduwees en die wewenaars se gelde … [Tussenwerpsels.] Daar is maar min van hulle. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[On behalf of the Government I want to thank all the parties for their contribution to this discussion this afternoon. We must prevent this issue from causing dissension between political parties. It is not the ANC that is managing Saambou. Depositors of Saambou come from all spheres. Under these circumstances we should all join hands and decide together what the way forward is. [Applause.]
The most important thing we have to do now is to tell the depositors of Saambou that their money is our concern. We shall ensure that it does not go down the river. We shall do everything possible to ensure that the money of the workers, the widows and widowers … [Interjections.] There are really only a few of them.]
But we must provide the certainty to those people that they are uppermost in our minds. I think it is also important that once we have done that, once we have secured the interest of depositors, we should begin to look at the other issues that the hon Dr Woods referred to.
If there have been wrongdoings, let us bring those individuals to book. Let us prosecute them, let us show them that they cannot get away with impunity, let us take joint responsibility for the fact that banking is a social service and let us ensure that depositors can maintain their trust in the banking industry in this country, because that will always be preferable to hiding their money under the mattress.
That is our joint responsibility and I am so glad that so many members who spoke on this issue see it in that way. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Mr Stefanus Petrus Grové)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House -
(1) notes with sadness the passing away of Mr Stefan Grové, who served as a member of the Senate and the National Council of Provinces between 1994 and 1999 and as a Member of this House since 1999;
(2) recognises the outstanding contribution made by Mr Grové to the transformation of our country into a democratic state, never allowing his physical constraints to impinge upon his dedication to duty;
(3) honours his life of service and dedication and mourns the passing on of one our land’s finest sons; and
(4) extends its condolences to his wife, Julie, and his children, Disa and Jenz. Mr G P MNGOMEZULU: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, Ministers and members of Parliament, today we mourn the passing on of a true patriot and comrade, a South African who refused to remain idle when his conscience dictated that he reject and oppose oppression and exploitation.
Comrade Stefanus Grové is one of those patriots who was able to cross the Rubicon and join the masses of our people in working for a better life for all. This he did by joining the ANC and by being involved in a number of organisations which were aimed at voicing the concerns of our people.
Comrade Grové was born in Krugersdorp on 15 November 1948. He received his primary education in Paardekraal Laerskool in Krugersdorp. He matriculated in 1966 and enrolled for tertiary education at the University of Potchefstroom. It is at this institution that Comrade Stefanus began to pave a future for himself, a path that began to define Stefanus as an activist with a profound interest in the material wellbeing of our people.
During his life at university he was a member of the debating society and political philosophy society. He rose within the ranks of student activism and was elected a member of the student representative council. Like all other white youth during apartheid rule, Stefanus’s life was interrupted as he was forced to undergo military training by the then apartheid regime.
After completing his B Juris degree he worked as an attorney in Nelspruit and later in Potchefstroom. His academic achievements and the privileges accrued by the minority group under apartheid rule did not deter him from his quest for a country which respected and protected human rights and dignity for all citizens.
The first break that Comrade Stefanus made with the apartheid establishment was when he joined the ANC. Comrade Stefanus made his quantum leap because he realised that the ANC was a vehicle for fundamental change in our country. He made this move because he was generally committed to the fundamental transformation of society. He realised that people from all walks of life had to unite to build a country which protected the human rights and the dignity of all its people.
At the time when Comrade Stefanus Grové passed away he was a member of this august House. He will therefore be missed by many of us in the ANC and all members who worked with him in the environment portfolio committee, for which he did a lot of work, even during his sick leave. He will be missed by his family and his loved ones. Comrade Stefanus leaves behind his wife and two children, Disa and Jenz. May his soul rest in peace.
Lala ngoxolo qhawe lamaqhawe. [Ihlombe.] [Rest in peace, hero of heroes. [Applause.]
Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, the Official Opposition is glad to be associated with this motion of condolence. Stefan Grové was a well-known member of the Senate, of the NCOP, and then of this House. Everyone recognised him because of his disability. He was not one of the anonymous mass, and it was remarkable how many warmed to him as a human being.
Stefan was a person who lived with an enormous burden that he managed to overcome with a cheerful smile and a refusal to accept that there were too many limitations on what he could do. We met every Sunday afternoon at the airport in Johannesburg on the trek back to Cape Town for a number of years and we always had a laugh and a chat.
Just as he was burdened with great misfortune, he was also greatly blessed in his marriage. Julie was a loyal, loving and uncomplaining wife who many came to admire and to like, as I did. We, on this side of the House, join in honouring the life of our late colleague, and we express our very sincere condolences to his party, to his many friends and to his wife and family. We will remember him. [Applause.]
Mnr J H SLABBERT: Mevrou die Speaker, die IVP wil aansluit by wat reeds gesê is deur die vorige sprekers. Ek dink Stefan Grové was ‘n simbool van dapperheid en toewyding vir almal van ons. Sy merkwaardige intellek en vermoë om sy saak met oortuiging te stel, sal ons in die IVP altyd bybly. Sy blymoedigheid ten spyte van ‘n ongeluk, wat hom aan sy rystoel geknel het, sal onthou word, só ook sy liefde vir die bewaring van die natuur en die omgewing. Sy insette in wetgewing omtrent omgewingsake en toerisme sal deur die hele Parlement gemis word.
Ons bring hulde aan Stefan Grové, en ons innige meegevoel gaan uit na sy gesin en sy moeder. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr J H SLABBERT: Madam Speaker, the IFP would like to associate itself with what has already been said by the previous speakers.
I think that Stefan Grové was a symbol of courage and dedication for all of us. We in the IFP will always remember his remarkable intellect and his ability to state his case with conviction. His cheerfulness despite an accident which restrained him to his wheelchair will be remembered, as well as his love for the conservation of nature and the environment. His input regarding legislation on environmental matters and tourism will be missed by Parliament as a whole.
We pay homage to Stefan Grové and our deepest sympathy goes out to his family and his mother.]
Stefan, we greet you. Stefan, hamba kahle. [Stefan, rest in peace. [Applause.]]
Mr C H F GREYLING: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the New NP, I want to support the motion of condolence by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, as it appears on the Order Paper.
We know that the deceased had a very serious operation during the year 2001 and, after a long illness, died during January 2002.
Ons eer sy nagedagtenis en vertrou dat sy familie vertroosting en aanvaarding sal vind in al die mooi herinneringe aan hom. [Applous.] [We honour his memory and trust that his family will find solace and acceptance in all the beautiful memories of him. [Applause.]]
Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, we wish to associate ourselves with the motion before us. It is with deep regret and a sense of shock that we learnt of the passing of our esteemed colleague. Our colleague who, in spite of his physical disability and paraplegic condition, made a noteworthy contribution not only to this House, but to all the organisations in which he served. He was a community person who took part in various community activities. He was president of Globe Southern Africa, and he was passionate about environmental issues.
His passionate plea in this House for improved facilities that are disability-friendly will not easily be forgotten. I note that various changes are taking place around this place in order to accommodate people in similar condition.
Aan mev Grové en haar gesin wil ons sê: Mag God, ons Almagtige Vader, u onderskraag in hierdie moeilike tyd van beproewing.
Laat ons almal onthou dat dit is aan Hom wat ons behoort, en dit is na Hom waarheen ons sal moet terugkeer. Mag u troos vind in die wete dat u aan Suid-Afrika en aan al sy mense ‘n persoon by die naam van Stefan Grové beskikbaar gestel het. Ons weet dat u as gesin moeilike tye deurgegaan het, terwyl hy in die diens van sy land en al sy mense gestaan het. Mag sy siel in vrede rus. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[To Mrs Grové and her family we want to say: May God, our Almighty Father, keep you in these times of trial and tribulation.
Let us all remember that we belong to Him and that it is to Him that we must return. May you find solace in the knowledge that you availed South Africa and all its people of a person by the name of Stefan Grové. We know that you, as a family, went through a trying time while he was in the service of his country and all its people. May his soul rest in peace. [Applause.]]
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the ACDP, I wish to express our sincere condolences to the family, loved ones, friends and colleagues of Mr Stefan Grové. It is always a sad occasion for us when the death of a colleague is announced. This is so because it reminds us of the uncertainty of life itself. It should cause us to reflect upon our relationship with our Creator and with Jesus Christ. Stefan was a follower of Jesus Christ, and we can have succour in that knowledge.
I came to know Stefan in the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism, where he and I served as the unofficial legal advisers on the committee. He was at all times highly professional, courteous and a true gentleman who will be sorely missed by all.
May our heavenly Father comfort all those who grieve at this time and in particular his wife, Julie, and his children, Disa and Jenz. [Applause.] Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, die VF wil baie graag hulself vereenselwig met die mosie wat vandag op die Ordelys verskyn en voor die Huis dien, waarin ons ons erkenning verleen aan en dank uitspreek teenoor die lewe van ‘n kollega van ons wat met ons in hierdie Huis gedien het en wat sedert 1994 ‘n lid van die Parlement was.
Ek het Stefan Grové baie goed geken en het hom ook goed leer ken vóórdat hy na die Parlement gekom het. Ons het aan dieselfde universiteit studeer, aan dieselfde fakulteit waar hy hom ook in die regte bekwaam het. Ons wil graag, van ons kant, ons innige simpatie uitspreek teenoor sy politieke party wat ‘n kollega verloor het, en herhaal dat ons Stefan goed leer ken het.
Ons wil ons dank uitspreek vir die lewe wat hy gehad het, en ons wil sy vrou, sy familie en sy vriende sterkte toewens in die moeilike tyd wat daar nog vir hulle voorlê. Ons eer sy gedagtenis. Hulle kan met trots aan hom terugdink. Hy was ‘n waardevolle eggenoot en vader vir sy gesin.
Ons steun graag die mosie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, the FF would very much like to associate themselves with the motion on today’s Order Paper which is now before the House, in which we acknowledge and express gratitude for the life of a colleague of ours who served with us in this House and who was a member of Parliament since 1994.
I knew Stefan Grové very well and also got to know him well before he came to Parliament. We studied at the same university, as well as at the same faculty at which he also qualified in the field of law. From our side, we wish to express our deepest sympathy with his political party, who have lost a colleague, and repeat that we got to know Stefan well.
We want to express our gratitude for the life that he led, and we want to wish his wife, his family and his friends well in the difficult times that still lie ahead for them. We honour his memory. They can remember him with pride. He was a treasured husband and father to his family.
We take pleasure in supporting the motion. [Applause.]]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and hon members, it is a sad day on which we pay tribute to Stefan. I served with him on the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism. He was passionate about environmental issues and struck me with the depth he displayed on such issues. He was the unchallenged president of Globe, the Global Legislators’ Organisation for a Balanced Environment, in the Southern African region.
Despite being confined to a wheelchair, something most of us would have considered a constraint, Stefan showed great agility. He never hesitated to go out on committee work. I remember, when we visited the Addo Elephant Park in Port Elizabeth, he shared wonderful experiences on environmental issues with us and cracked jokes about practical experiences he had had. One could remain spellbound whilst listening to him telling of his experiences and adventures in the freezing Antarctic. Although Stefan wore a pleasant smile, it belied the agony he was going through. He would relate the pains he felt in almost his entire body, yet he carried all that with admirable stoicism.
Stefan was a legal eagle who carried himself with admirable humility and dignity. Our condolences go out to his wife, who was always by his side, his family, the ANC and to this Parliament. We were blessed to have been able to rub shoulders with him. May he have perpetual peace in the sight of his Creator. [Applause.]
Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, the PAC supports the motion of condolence on the unexpected death of our colleague, Stefanus Petrus Grové. We believe that people like him, who have risen from where they started, right up to this House, and who in a very special way represented not only the people of South Africa, but actually made us more aware of and taught us about disability and how to react to it, are great. I want to say that the life of a human being is not measured in years; it is not the length of it that matters, but its quality.
I believe that Stefanus’s life was a life of quality that demonstrated worth and quality to us all and to the people of South Africa. We would like to express our very sincere condolences to his family. I want to say that their loss is our loss. May God bless him and may his soul rest in peace. [Applause.]
Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mevrou die Speaker, ons dank teenoor die kollega wat hierdie voorstel ingedien het. Graag wil ek namens die FA ons innige meegevoel uitspreek teenoor die vriende en familie van mnr Grové, asook sy kollegas in die Parlement en sy party.
Ek en dr Van Niekerk het weinig kennis van hom as mens, maar by ‘n geleentheid soos hierdie, omhels ons sy familie en sy vriende. Ons verstaan hul hartseer en ons bede sal sy naasbestaandes insluit. Ons bid dat hul troos sal vind in sy nagedagtenis en dat sy naasbestaandes in die dae en jare wat voorlê, inspirasie sal put uit sy lewe wat so kort was in hierdie Parlement en dat almal net goeie herinneringe aan hom sal oorhou. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ; Madam Speaker, we want to convey our gratitude to the colleague who tabled this motion. I would like to extend our deepest sympathies to the friends and family of Mr Grové as well as his colleagues in Parliament and his party.
Dr Van Niekerk and I have little knowledge of him as a person, but on an occasion such as this, we embrace his family and friends. We understand their grief and our prayers will include his next of kin. We pray that they will find solace in his memory and that his relatives will, in the days and years that lie ahead, draw inspiration from his life in Parliament, which was so brief, and that everyone will only have fond memories of him. [Applause.]]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, the MF expresses its sincere condolences to the bereaved family and loved ones of the late Stefanus Petrus Grové, who leaves behind his wife, Julie, and his children, Disa and Jenz. Knowing the loss of a loved one is by no means easy. We pray that God may bless his family with the strength to overcome this difficult time and love and guide them through the years to come. It is always sad to hear of the loss of a fellow member.
Even though I did not have the opportunity to know the deceased personally, I certainly learnt of his reputation as a great contributor to the transformation of our country into a democratic state, and how dedicated his service was to the Senate and the National Council of Provinces between the years 1994 and 1999, 1999 being the year from which he served as a member of this House. He is said to have been well skilled in the knowledge of our law and, though paraplegic, by no means limited in delivering an outstanding contribution.
He has certainly served as a shining example of dedication to the liberation of our country. This, his struggle for sustainable development, will live on as an inspiration to us who remain in order to continue to work hard in this fight.
Once again the MF extends its condolences to his party, the ANC, and to the bereaved family and friends of the late Stefanus Petrus Grové. May he rest in peace. [Applause.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, ek het Stefan Grové bykans 30 jaar gelede in my studentedae op Potchefstroom leer ken toe hy as ‘n jong, voortvarende prokureur ‘n transport vir my gedoen het. Ons kom uit dieselfde kraal: ‘n tradisionele Afrikanerhuis, 1 Spesiale Pantserbataljon, Potchefstroom Universiteit, Gereformeerde Kerk. Ons paaie het uiteengeloop: hy in die ANC en ek in die AEB, hy in die Corpus Christi-gemeente en ek nog ‘n stoere Dopper.
Tog, toe ons in 1999 weer hier in die Parlement ontmoet, het ons dadelik aanklank by mekaar gevind. Ons het heelwat gesprekke met mekaar gedeel, veral hier buite in die vierkant as hy sy Camel opsteek en ek my pyp. Daar was verskil, maar altyd opbouende gesprekvoering en dit omdat ons mettertyd wedersyds onder die indruk gekom het van elkeen se opregtheid en dit waarin hy glo en mekaar se bona fides aanvaar het. Stefan het op grond van hierdie oortuigings van hom opgetree en vir sy tyd ‘n ongewilde stap in Afrikanergeledere gemaak en dít omdat hy volgens sy gewete gehandel het.
Ek onthou hom veral vir sy bydrae in die komitee oor die wetsontwerp oor gelykheid. Stefan se sin vir geregtigheid en sy aanvoeling vir die reg het daartoe bygedra dat die eindproduk veel beter was. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, I met Stefan Grové about 30 years ago during my time as a student at Potchefstroom, when he, as a young, energetic attorney did a title-deed for me. We come from the same stable: A traditional Afrikaner home, 1 Special Armoured Battalion, Potchefstroom University, Reformed Church. Our ways parted: He in the ANC and I in the AEB, he in the Corpus Christi congregation and I still a stalwart Dopper [member of the Reformed Church].
Nevertheless, when we met again here in Parliament in 1999, we immediately found that the appeal was still there. We had many conversations, especially out here in the quadrangle, when he lit a Camel and I my pipe. There was differing, but we always had constructive discussions, and that was so because in time we realised how sincere the other was and because we accepted what the other believed in and one another’s bona fides. Stefan acted on the grounds of these convictions of his, and for his time he took an unpopular step among the ranks of Afrikaners, and he had done so because he had acted according to his conscience.
I remember him specifically for his contribution in the committee dealing with the Equality Bill. Stefan’s sense of justice and his feeling for the law contributed to the end product being so much better.]
The fact that the Bill placed special emphasis on discrimination on the grounds of disability, next to race and gender, can, to a great extent, be related to Stefan’s presence in that committee. With the death of Stefan, I lost one of my friends in Parliament.
To his wife, Julie, who supported him unselfishly, and in the process became an expert at driving a wheelchair, to his two children, and to his family, my personal condolences and those of the AEB.
May God comfort and give Julie the strength to travel the path ahead in a way Stefan would be proud of, according to the example he set for us all. [Applause.]
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, Azapo wishes to convey its deep-felt condolences to the wife and children of the late Stefan Grové. Likewise, at this moment of sadness, Azapo joins the ANC and all who knew him and his sterling contributions towards the betterment of our people. One wise man once said: ``Once born means to die’’. By that he meant that one must live one’s life so as to make a contribution to those who will follow. May God bless his soul. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! The Deputy Speaker and I wish to associate ourselves with the sentiments that have been expressed in this House. Would members please rise and observe a moment of silence in memory of our late colleague Stefan Grové.
Debate concluded.
Motion agreed to, all members standing.
MULTIPARTY PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION TO ZIMBABWE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that presidential elections are due to take place in Zimbabwe from 9 to 10 March 2002; and
(2) resolves -
(a) to send a multiparty parliamentary delegation to observe these
elections;
(b) that the terms of reference of the delegation are to observe the
election campaign in the run-up to the election, the casting of
votes during the elections and subsequently the counting of
votes; and
(c) that the delegation must, after the completion of its mission,
present a full report to the House.
Agreed to.
RESIGNATION OF MR C J P LUCAS AND ADV A M MEYER
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members I have to announce that Mr Chris Lucas, General Manager of the Parliamentary Service, and Adv Anton Meyer, the Chief Law Adviser, will be leaving on retirement tomorrow, 15 February. By arrangement, the House will pay tribute to them next week.
APPOINTMENT OF DR N ISMAIL
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER:I also have to announce that Dr Nazeem Ismail, has been appointed Undersecretary: Research and Parliamentary Practice with effect from 1 February 2002.
The House adjourned at 15:23. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The Minister of Housing on 22 October 2001 submitted a draft of
the Disestablishment of the South African Housing Trust Limited
Bill, 2002, as well as the memorandum explaining the objects of
the proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the Chairperson in
terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Housing and the Select Committee on Public
Services by the Speaker and the Chairperson, respectively, in
accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).
(2) The following Bill was introduced by the Select Committee on
Public Services at the request of the Minister of Housing in the
National Council of Provinces on 14 February 2002 and referred to
the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
Joint Rule 160:
(i) Disestablishment of the South African Housing Trust
Limited Bill [B 3 - 2002] (National Council of Provinces - sec
76) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
introduction published in Government Gazette No 22728 of 5
October 2001.]
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Public
Services of the National Council of Provinces.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
within three parliamentary working days.
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
(1) A vacancy has occurred in the National Assembly due to the death
of Mr S P Grové on 18 January 2002.
(2) Dr A S Nkomo vacated his seat with effect from 31 January 2002.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Home Affairs:
Report of the Independent Electoral Commission on the Municipal
Elections, 5 December 2000 [RP 25-2002].
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on Suspension and Removal from Office of Mr H Z Zulu, Additional Magistrate, Port Shepstone, dated 12 February 2002:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the suspension and removal from office of Mr H Z Zulu, Additional Magistrate, Port Shepstone, in terms of sections 13(3)(a)(ii) and 13(3)(e) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993), respectively, referred to it, recommends -
(a) that the House regard the matter as finalised in view thereof that the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development decided on 7 November 2001 to reinstate Mr Zulu and pay his emoluments that have been withheld for the period of his suspension, on the ground thereof that the correct procedures were not followed; and (b) that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development review the misconduct procedures relating to magistrates in terms of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993), and the Regulations for Judicial Officers in the Lower Courts, 1994, in view of the problems that were experienced in this case, the Department to report back to the Committee in this regard within two months of the adoption of this Report.
Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on Legal Aid Guide, 2001 , dated 12 February 2002:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the ratification of the Legal Aid Guide, 2001, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 3A(2) of the Legal Aid Act, 1969 (Act No 22 of 1969), ratify the said Guide.
Report to be considered.