National Assembly - 23 May 2002
THURSDAY, 23 MAY 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:00.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Dr Z P JORDAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the recent visit to this country by a group of Israeli conscientious objectors who are reserve combat officers and soldiers in the Israeli defence force;
(2) further notes that these trained combatants are willing to defend Israeli territory but refuse to participate in missions of occupation and oppression in the occupied territories, and have declared their refusal to ``fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people’’;
(3) applauds the courage and integrity of these objectors and expresses its solidarity with their laudable stand; and
(4) calls on the Israeli government to -
(a) recognise the right of conscientious objection;
(b) withdraw immediately from the occupied territories in accordance
with UN resolutions; and
(c) resume negotiations in good faith with the Palestinian Authority
in order to establish an independent and viable Palestinian
state, co-existing in peace with an independent and secure
Israeli state. [Applause.]
Mr T D LEE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development accused Archbishop Tutu of hypocrisy and used the shelter of parliamentary privilege to do so;
(2) further notes that he did so to avoid taking responsibility for the political favouritism displayed by the latest series of presidential pardons;
(3) recognises that -
(a) the TRC process was designed to expose and thereby heal the
wounds of our divided past; and
(b) it did so at great emotional and financial cost to our nation;
and
(4) therefore regrets that President Mbeki chose to negate this healing process by ignoring the TRC and pardoning brutal killers simply because of their political allegiances. [Interjections.]
Mr J H SLABBERT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes that 17 persons were recently arrested in Gauteng for allegedly defrauding the Road Accident Fund;
(2) further notes that the Minister of Transport has announced that about 25% of RAF claims were fraudulent, amounting to some R300 million per year; and
(3) calls on the Minister of Transport to accelerate immediately the process of reform that has been under way at the RAF for the last two years or longer.
Mr T M GONIWE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that the President of the Republic of South Africa, the hon Thabo Mbeki, called for a ``new worker’’ who must also concentrate on the collective good of the nation, the continent and the world;
(2) believes that whilst it is important for the organised working class to take up shop floor issues, it is imperative that they participate actively in the process of social change as they benefit from it; and
(3) reiterates President Thabo Mbeki’s call for the organised workers to embrace the spirit of new patriotism and be part of the processes of transformation. [Applause.]
Mr D M BAKKER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) the shocking revelations by Mr Jurgen Harksen at the Desai
commission hearing, detailing regular meetings and donations of
more than R785 000 to the DA;
(b) Mr Harksen stating that their friendship got deeper and deeper
and more expensive;
(c) that, contrary to his testimony yesterday, Mr Hennie Bester was
present in a meeting with Mr Harksen and thanked Mr Harksen for
arranging financial assistance for the DA; and
(d) that Mr Bester had phoned the hon Mr Leon in the presence of Mr
Harksen and others, and informed him of Mr Harksen's involvement
and generosity; and
(2) calls on -
(a) the hon Mr Leon and Mr Bester to come clean and to apply to
themselves and the DA the advice that they so readily give to
others; and
(b) the DP/DA to suspend the hon Mr Leon until the full extent of
his involvement has been established. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!
Mr M N RAMODIKE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of the House:
That the House -
(1) notes with appreciation the effort known as the Trans-Limpopo Corridor Spatial Development Initiative, which is intended to be a model for the rest of the African continent;
(2) recognises that this initiative by the Limpopo province of South Africa and the Zimbabwean provinces of Matabeleland South, Matabeleland North, the city of Bulawayo, and the Kruger National Park will harness the concept of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development;
(3) however, expresses its concern and alarm at the pulling out of President Mugabe and Zanu-PF from the reconciliatory talks which would bring to an end the political crisis in Zimbabwe and thus create a conducive atmosphere and environment for both Nepad and the Trans-Limpopo Corridor Spatial Development Initiative; and
(4) calls on President Mugabe and Zanu-PF to yield to the diplomatic request for rejoining the reconciliatory dialogue with the MDC. [Applause.]
Ms M A MOLEBATSI: Madam Speaker, on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that 12-year-old Leonard Mmokwa is fighting for his life on life support at GaRankuwa Hospital after he was run over by a tractor while employed for R5 a day on a farm at Sikataatsnek, Brits, in the North West province;
(2) believes that the continued employment and exploitation of children for labour deprives children of a decent future, their freedom and proper education;
(3) wishes Leonard Mmokwa a speedy recovery;
(4) appreciates the support that another farmer, Manie Maritz, his wife Marita and Miss Daleen van Manen have given the Mmokwa family;
(5) pledges to intensify its efforts to eradicate child labour and exploitation of farm workers; and
(6) calls on the relevant authorities to investigate the matter and to prosecute.
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:
That the House -
(1) notes with appreciation that -
(a) Volunteer South Africa in co-operation with the Department of
Social Development held its Volunteer Vision Regional Conference
on 16 and 17 May 2002 in Johannesburg;
(b) the regional conference was attended by delegates from several
SADC countries including Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland,
Mozambique and others;
(c) several South African nonprofit organisations such as SASVO, Via
Africa, Nacoss and the National Nutritional Support Programme
(NNSP) among others, attended this conference; and
(d) the volunteer medium needs to be strengthened and harnessed to
address the socioeconomic challenges such as poverty, HIV/Aids
and the plight of children, the unemployed and the homeless;
(2) recognises -
(a) that the reciprocity of volunteering and volunteer actions
benefit the individual and society at large;
(b) the contribution of volunteering in the national GDP, and its
role in the creation of social cohesion and capital; and
(c) that Government, the private sector, international donor
organisations and civil society have an individual and
collective responsibility to contribute to volunteering; and
(3) therefore resolves that -
(a) all tiers of Government should lend support to volunteer action
and create an enabling and favourable environment for
volunteering through proactive policies and legislation, to
encourage research on volunteering service, to support
infrastructures and to promote public sector volunteering; and
(b) all members of Parliament avail themselves to do volunteer work
during the constituency period. [Applause.]
Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:
That the House - (1) notes with concern that -
(a) a period for belt tightening has fallen on us as a nation as the
financial well dries up by degrees;
(b) revenue earned by provinces from gambling, horse-racing and
lottery has fallen over the years; and
(c) provinces that relied heavily on the proceeds of gambling houses
for their revenue will face an uncertain future; and
(2) takes into cognisance that this is an indication to the Government to be prepared for the worst, as hunger, joblessness, crime and poverty will escalate as money grows scarcer and scarcer.
Prof S S RIPINGA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House -
(1) notes that the Minister of Education, Mr Kader Asmal, signed an agreement on Tuesday with Microsoft for 32 000 state schools to get Microsoft software for free;
(2) further notes that it is estimated that the deal will save the Government up to R100 million annually and will provide a significant boost to the Department of Education’s plan to have every state school connected to the Internet by 2002;
(3) believes that this reflects the commitment of the ANC Government to building a nonracial, nonsexist and dynamic education system which responds to the development needs of a growing economy and a changing society; and
(4) welcomes the signing of this agreement as it will contribute positively to social development. [Applause.] Mr S B FARROW: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DP:
That the House -
(1) notes with approval the remarks by President Mbeki when he criticised local and provincial government institutions for their failure to deliver services, in particular his reference to the Eastern Cape provincial government;
(2) further notes that the ANC is fond of blaming institutional incapacity for their failures but appears to do little to help create the capacity needed for delivery; and
(3) reminds the ANC that in a democracy the voters are unforgiving when a government, at any level, fails to deliver. [Applause.]
Mr E T FERREIRA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) congratulates our national soccer team on their last two victories over Madagascar and Scotland in preparation for the Soccer World Cup;
(2) notes with pride that Bafana Bafana’s buildup to the World Cup in Korea and Japan has been very successful thus far;
(3) believes that Bafana Bafana will -
(a) play to the best of their ability and make the people of South
Africa proud; and
(b) prove the many prophets of doom wrong during the forthcoming
World Cup. [Applause.] Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) notes that many South Africans live on or under the breadline, whilst unemployment is high, especially amongst women and the youth;
(2) recognises that a food security system for South Africa may take the form of a food parcel system such as and where -
(a) the Department of Health determines the nutritional content of a
food parcel;
(b) supermarkets tender for the distribution and administration of
food parcels, ensuring that the best quality and the best price
is achieved;
(c) people who qualify are issued with rechargeable cards, to obtain
food on a monthly basis;
(d) the system is phased in, starting with the elderly and
female/child heads of households, and later extended to
registered unemployed people or low-paid youths; and
(3) commits itself to actively campaign in the coming months to ensure that this, or any other reasonable and responsible strategy is implemented to ensure that all South Africans have the basic means to become productive contributors to our society and economy.
Mr B M KOMPHELA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that Transnet has issued one of the largest freight railway tenders in the continent to upgrade its ageing locomotive and wagon fleet in a deal worth R15 billion over 15 years;
(2) believes that the latest move by Spoornet will contribute positively to the improvement, accessibility and efficiency in the public transport system;
(3) further believes that the improvement of public transport will contribute positively towards the improvement of the quality of life of our people; and
(4) welcomes the plans by Transnet to upgrade its locomotive and wagon fleet. [Applause.]
Mr J J DOWRY: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I will move at the next sitting of the House:
That the House - (1) notes that -
(a) the hon Mr Tony Leon insisted that Mr Peter Marais, when he was
still Mayor of Cape Town, be sent on leave pending an
investigation into the allegations surrounding Mr Marais then;
and yet
(b) it was the hon Mr Leon's so-called political judgment at the
time that Mr Peter Marais was not fit to be mayor;
(2) calls -
(a) on the DA to contact Judge Heath urgently to investigate the
allegations surrounding Mr Leon; and
(b) for the mandate of the DA's Morkel Commission to be broadened to
also investigate Mr Leon's and Mr Hennie Bester's involvement in
the funding scandal;
(3) states its political judgment that Mr Leon is not fit to act as the Leader of the Official Opposition until the revelations have been fully investigated; and
(4) asks Mr Leon and Mr Bester to go on leave pending the outcome of the investigation. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Mr Curnick Ndlovu)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that Mr Curnick Ndlovu, a former member of the National Assembly, passed away on 22 May 2002 after a long battle with cancer;
(2) conveys its heartfelt condolences to the Ndlovu family, his wife Beauty, his daughter Zethu and granddaughter Siphokazi; and
(3) joins them in mourning for the deceased.
May his soul rest in peace. Lala kahle Gatsheni, Boya beNyathi.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ellis, did you want to add to that motion or are you on another motion? [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Yes, Madam Speaker, certainly, we support the previous motion, but this is another motion altogether.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would also like to indicate that we, from the office of the Speaker, also add our voice to that expression of sorrow and condolences to the family. We will convey the resolution of this House to the Ndlovu family.
Agreed to. SOUTH AFRICA’S 25TH GOLD MEDAL AT CHELSEA FLOWER SHOW
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I hereby move without notice:
That the House notes with great appreciation the fact that South Africa has for the 25th time won a gold medal at the Chelsea Flower Show in London and congratulates all those responsible for bringing distinction to our country.
Agreed to.
BAFANA BAFANA IN SOCCER WORLD CUP TOURNAMENT
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House - (1) notes that Bafana Bafana will play the last match for unification of Korea as part of the preparations for the World Cup today;
(2) wishes Bafana Bafana good luck for their match against Turkey;
(3) calls on the people of South Africa to support our team in the World Cup.
Agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration; Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission; and Vote No 12 - SA Management Development Institute:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Madam Speaker, colleagues, hon members of this House, union leaders who are up in the gallery and various observers from various sectors of society - public, private and the community sector - the Public Service is changing. Eight years since the first democratic Government took power we can see the signs of constitutional change. Our organs of state are representative of our people and, therefore, more effective in addressing a diverse range of needs. Our structures and systems are being modernised in order to provide a better service. Our public servants are grappling with translating the spirit of Batho Pele and Vukuzenzele in their everyday practices.
The transformation is not made easier, given the fact that we govern in a context full of complexities and contradictions. Massive service delivery challenges remain. Our organisational structures and operational systems can still be more effective and efficient. Our public servants are not all equipped with the competencies required to be fully effective. We are still growing, adapting and learning, but, most importantly, we are changing. The Public Service is changing.
The theme ``We are changing’’ opened a polemic within me. In the first instance, the one thing in life that is certain is change. So it is not special when all we can report is that the Public Service is changing. Change in the Public Service can only be meaningful if it is for the better of the people. Therefore, this input to this Parliament today is: We are changing for the better of the people.
This particular Budget Vote is also dedicated to a special leader and group of leaders and Isithwalandwe (Seaparankoe), Tata Walter Sisulu. [Interjections.] This Budget Vote is dedicated to him and that group of leaders.
I want to remind hon members that the President, in his tribute in ANC Today to Tata Sisulu on his 90th birthday celebration last week, penned some thoughts that I believe are of the utmost pertinence to the challenge that we are facing in transforming the Public Service. The President commented on women and men who chose to dedicate their lives to the service of the people, describing them as heroes and heroines, and he elaborated as follows on them, and I quote:
They were prepared to sacrifice everything so long this was necessary for the betterment of the condition of the people. They were ready thus to act, not to earn any praise or to receive any material reward. They acted to satisfy their consciences, that they had done all they could to serve the people of our country.
I could not but wonder, when looking at the Public Service today: Do we have, at this point, in the mould of this Public Service, men and women who are ready to do what is necessary for the betterment of the condition of our people? I believe that we will be able to reflect and see who and where they are, those who are the heroes and heroines, who are ready to engage, proactively and productively, in the reconstruction and transformation of the Public Service to ensure more effective service delivery.
Our Government recently passed its halfway mark since coming to power in June 1999. It is therefore an appropriate time to reflect on what this Ministry has achieved. We have the broad range that is covered by this Budget Vote - the Department of Public Service and Administration; the SA Management Development Institute; the State Information Technology Agency; the Centre for Public Service Innovation; and the Public Service Commission, a body, in terms of the constitutional provision, which reports, in its own right, directly to Parliament on its work.
In his state of the nation address our President called on our people, the people of this country, to arise and act in the people’s campaign, Vukuzenzele. This has proved an excellent way for the leadership of the Public Service to remain in touch with the people and the material conditions that constitute their greatest challenge. Public servants have risen to this challenge and extended their hand to fellow public servants and fellow citizens, and I have seen in my Ministry teams lending a hand in the spirit of Letsema. The effect has been phenomenal.
Firstly, people who are accessing Government services experience the difference. Secondly, in our own team’s report I see a renewed sense of passion for the work they do and a greater sense of how the backroom work that they perform in an ordinary day translates into practice. Thirdly, I have witnessed what it does to the team spirit and camaraderie where work is done together in this way.
Traditional divisions are often cited as obstacles to delivery, such as organisational and structural divisions between distinct departments, organisations and various institutions at national, provincial and local levels, as well as various sectors of society. for example, public, private and community sectors fade in the face of the challenge of performing better and creating improved physical circumstances in which public services can be rendered.
In Peddie in the Eastern Cape we concentrated on the registration drive to improve the uptake of child support grants. In true Batho Pele spirit, the Public Administration team, together with public servants from Social Development and Home Affairs, set up an operation on the grounds of Ngqushwa Municipality Town Hall. A process of registering child support grants was embarked upon, allowing children without birth certificates to apply for and be issued with their certificates. This drive lasted over three days, and we noted how this process had an amazing 24-hour turn- around result.
Earlier this month 45 members of the team spent a total of 16 hours each - this included members from Samdi, Sita and DPSA - cleaning, gardening and painting, as well as decorating a police station, a women’s shelter and a hospital to make a tangible difference to continued service delivery in the Alex Township. The private sector generously sponsored material for this event and we appreciate their contribution.
This morning Samdi officials went to Bishop Lavis Police Station, and assisted in capturing the backlog of police records electronically to ensure the better functioning of the criminal justice system through their input at that specific police station. Why mention these actions within the bigger picture? It is a sign that there are public servants who say that, over and above the normal call of duty, they will walk that extra mile, in the spirit of what is required where we break down undue divisions.
The marvel of these activities is that they give rise to further action, which is directly in response to express needs from the broader populace in our country. Our visit to Peddie has already resulted in both Samdi and Sita assisting two schools in the area to become fully computer literate. These schools are the Marambana Commercial High School and the Knight Matomela Senior Secondary School. I believe the principals are somewhere in the gallery this afternoon.
On Monday 20 May 2002, 20 computers were sent to Marambane and Sita support technicians will assist with the installation. These computers are part of the package of a total of 2 500 that will be made available to needy schools free of charge, in terms of the public-private-partnership that I will be elaborating on within minutes. Also, what should be said is that today two trainers are in the area kickstarting the Train the Trainers Course for both schools.
We are absolutely convinced of the fact that the information and community technology provides an essential mechanism through which the performance of any modern organisation can be improved. If correctly deployed, ICT can become prized artillery in the fight against poverty, and that was reflected in the earlier motion that was read, and that applauded my colleague Minister Asmal. We will use this as part of the artillery to take efficiency forward and to extend certain boundaries.
Two days ago, speaking at the second Fedusa National Congress, the President underlined this fact, stating:
All of us will agree that one of the primary challenges facing the working people is the technological revolution, an entry to the information age, ensuring a smooth ride on the information highway, without falling by the wayside.
This is a one of the primary challenges facing our working people.
The sad reality is that ICT literacy levels of public servants and the current patterns of access to computers confirm our biggest concerns about the effect of the advanced technologies on societies and organisations. Notwithstanding the fact that Government spends over R3 billion per annum on ICT goods and services, only 20% of our workforce are PC users. Our concern is that instead of being an equaliser and a developmental tool, technology could contribute to even further and deeper divisions in our society, and hence we thought we proactively need to move to overcome it. We must do this in the Public Service.
It is against this background that Cabinet, in April this year, approved the implementation of two very exciting projects in the Public Service realm that will have a strong ripple effect across society. These are the Golaganang project, and the related Walk-in Training Centres project. The origin of Golaganang can be found in the public service presidential task force on ICT that met late last year, where our President Mbeki posed the challenge to private sector partners involved in the task force to come forward with innovative mechanisms, through which to address the specific challenges facing Southern Africa, in terms of ensuring proper dispersion of ICT to communities.
In response to this challenge, Hewlett-Packard, together with selected partners such as Telkom, Microsoft and CS Holdings, came up with the concept of assembling a technology bundle that can be sold to public servants at an affordable price, with a subsidy from Government. The bundle will include the provision of basic computer training to public servants and three of their family members.
We hope that others in the ICT community will seize this opportunity and also come forward with innovative ideas that will contribute to the closing of the ICT chasm. My colleague the Minister of Communications, Ivy Matsepe- Casaburri, members would have heard, was applauding solely earlier, because she has been pushing this very hard. We want to close the divide at all levels, and the Public Service is going to lead in this instance. [Applause.]
What exactly is the content of the Golaganang offer? Government employees are given the opportunity to purchase a computer package that consists of a personal computer with a 15-inch monitor and built-in modem, a Hewlett- Packard computer, a colour printer, two free-standing speakers, Microsoft Office software applications and Microsoft Windows Step-by-step interactive training software, and then Internet connectivity provided by Telkom. There will be free installation and an extended service warranty for three years. There will be three hours basic computer training for the buyer plus three of her - and I want to emphasise ``her’’ - and his family members.
It will include skills-enhancing computer-based programmes on PC literacy, and then, of course, we look at banking facilities that are being provided. The total cost of the package will be charged through instalments of R430 per month over a period of 36 months. However, this project includes a Government subsidy that progressively favours lower-paid employees. In effect this means that Public Service employees earning less than R12 499 per month will be able to access the above package for as little as R99 per month, and we will target the lower levels of the Public Service deliberately and consciously. [Applause.]
The roll-out plans will further ensure that project is favourable to specific groups. Those who have access to technology must have a greater impact on society. So, to the women and mothers who are public servants, ``apply, and make sure you are on board’’. The Ministers will ensure that this does happen. I want to go forward and say that governments may generally be slow in seizing opportunities that result from advances made in technology development, and tend to be conservative in exploiting the new choices that are opening up to them. As a Government, and as a team, we have tried to overcome this reticence. We are now moving to a situation where we want to integrate existing initiatives and build on the experience that has been developed. Through the integration and co-ordination work that we are doing, through the governance and administration cluster, in initiating South Africa online, which will begin to bear fruit later this year, we would like to ensure a single electronic gateway that will facilitate information about, and services provided by, Government.
The overall vision of Gateway, as it is known, is to provide access to Government services at any time and any place, within a clearly defined and executed e-government service. Access to services is at the heart of Gateway. Through the creative use of the electronic enablers, mobile service units and fixed-service delivery sites, we hope that it will mean an end to providing the same information over and over to different agencies of the state. Once given, all records will automatically and regularly be updated. This is the future that we are busy creating for our people. I would like to remind the hon members that some of the people who are going to lead this work are sitting on my right, in the bay reserved for departmental officials, and others are sitting up there in the public gallery. With this commitment to this Parliament and this nation, the work must be done as is required to take it forward.
We believe that projects such as those that I have outlined here, and all other Public Service delivery through all other departments and agencies, can only happen in the most effective way if we pursue the internal transformation processes that have been set in motion. The challenge is to create a Public Service organisation that is capable, ethical, modern and an employer of choice that is continually learning and improving.
How are we progressing in order to create this Public Service? The make or break in a successful Public Service administration capable of leading the fight against poverty are ability and capacity. These two factors are key in determining performance. For this reason, the bulk of activities in which we are involved somehow relate to capacity development. Human resource development is the key. During the week of 15 to 19 April this year - and I briefly referred to this earlier on - we launched the human resource development strategy for the Public Service at Ngqushwa, in the Eastern Cape. The purpose of this strategy is to ensure that education, training and development in the Public Service happen in a coherent manner through better co-ordination and alignment. I would like to say that, in this regard, we reflected on training targets last year through the Public Service Sector Education and Training Authority, PSETA.
I would like to say to the labour leaders and the rest of us in Government that we need to push harder and push PSETA harder to ensure that we not only meet those training targets but go beyond them. It is absolutely fundamental for us to take forward the development that is required in the Public Service and to effect the restructuring required.
The SA Management Development Institute, once again, built on its performance that I reported upon from this podium last year. By the end of the financial year, 2001-02, they had trained 12-250 Public Service employees. This comes to a total of 62 837 person training days. The Presidential Strategic Leadership Development Programme remains the flagship of Samdi. Currently, 41 modules are booked and presented to various national and provincial departments each and every month. The anticipated key programmes linked to competency profiles will become compulsory for all senior managers in the Public Service. In this regard, the SA Police Service, which is represented here this afternoon as well, has taken the lead in making the PSLDP mandatory at director and assistant- commissioner levels. We must applaud them for that. [Applause.]
Samdi has also entered into a strategic partnership with the Police Service that will entail the training of 700 managers and an additional 4 000 middle managers under the umbrella of the Presidential Strategic Leadership Development Programme; the training of 180 trainers who will be responsible for the new recruits into the WSAPS; and the development of a course which deals with violence against women and children. This course was launched on 13 May this year. I do want to assure the hon members that an impact assessment study of the most important programmes has been commissioned and the preliminary report is available. I can speak to that in closing.
Regarding good labour practices and improving the conditions of service, I would like to pause here and relate an incident that happened on Monday the 20th when I addressed a meeting in Kimberley. I asked the public servants in the hall: What would you like me to talk about? A Mr Isaacs, who is a public servant, replied.
Hy het gesê dat hulle salarisverhogings wil hê. Sou ek Donderdag oor iets wou praat, moet dit wees oor salarisverhogings. My antwoord aan hom was dat hy vandag na my moet luister.
Ek sal kom by die punt wat mnr Isaacs gemaak het, maar ek wil eerstens sê: As die grootste werkgewer in die land kan ek met trots sê dat die Staatsdiens ‘n leier is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[He said that they wanted salary increases. Should I want to speak about anything on Thursday, it should be about salary increases. My answer to him was that he should listen to me today.
I shall get to the point that Mr Isaacs made, but firstly I wish to say: Being the biggest employer in the country, I can proudly say that the Public Service is a leader.]
It is a leader in terms of the application of best practice in labour relations. We ensure that we adhere to the country’s labour laws at all times, and I would argue that sometimes we even exceed the requirements. I am sure that my colleagues and partners who are seated on the far left in the public gallery will agree with me regarding that. In order to be competitive, as an employer, we continually have to ensure that we improve the conditions of service of public servants. Last year, we restructured the salary structure of the senior management cadre, that is levels 13 to
- This year, we will proceed with looking at how to improve the structuring of remuneration for salary levels 11 and 12. We are currently negotiating with Public Service labour unions on the new pay progression system. We believe that we will resolve that around the end of the month.
The Department of Public Service and Administration also completed a report that will reflect on the comparison between conditions of service in the Public Service and those in the local government sphere. We are particularly going to address the issues around mobility across the different spheres of Government. In addition to these initiatives, we have task teams working on the possible selection and accreditation of medical aid and administrators for Public Service employees. A management policy and procedure on incapacity leave and ill-health retirement has been developed and, in this regard, consultations with labour are proceeding. A tender for the appointment of a health risk manager for the Public Service will be issued soon.
I have previously raised two pertinent issues, namely the need for administrative capacity to handle corruption and the challenge to civil society to analyse causes and effects of corruption. As Government, we did not leave these challenges to others, we responded ourselves. I can state without reservation that we have made successful and substantial progress to fulfil the spirit and letter of the Government’s programme in order to ensure clean administration and a good governance dispensation across all spheres of South African society.
Our first success was to create the national anticorruption forum as a formal mechanism to bring the public, business and civil society sectors together to fight corruption in all aspects of our society. Secondly, we have embarked upon the implementation of a comprehensive integrated and coherent Public Service anticorruption strategy which is co-ordinated by the Department of Public Service and Administration. The current Bill, which is before the justice committee, deals with the whole issue of corruption and is precisely based on this strategy.
Thanks to the Public Service Commission, an audit of the national anticorruption agencies was completed in August last year. This greatly contributed to the development of the Public Service anticorruption strategy.
So what can we look forward to this year? In addition to the aims that I have just mentioned, a dedicated effort is being made to increase our institutional capacity on the systems and skills level.
Over the next few months, the following will be done: Firstly, the release of the findings of the first ever comprehensive corruption assessment; secondly, the audit of departmental anticorruption capabilities; thirdly, the training of at least 100 investigators and prosecutors in the area of corruption supported by a very practical and detailed handbook for these corruption busters; and, fourthly, the integration of ethical training in all of Samdi’s courses and the roll-out of training for presiding officers in disciplinary cases. [Applause.]
It is within the context of modernising Government focused on addressing basic needs and functioning as a global player that we established the Centre for Public Service Innovation in September 2001. I believe that the chairperson, Gugu Hlatshwayo, is somewhere in this august Assembly, probably up in the gallery. This particular initiative aims to provide support to the ongoing challenge of improving ways in which the public receives services within the broader context of socioeconomic sustainability. It anticipates doing this by demonstrating practice, facilitating partnerships, rewarding initiatives and sharing knowledge. Under the guidance of an able board and with the commitment and added energy and dedication of a small staff, the centre focused, during its first nine months of existence, on developing an effective institutional base and establishing the necessary network of partnerships that will enable it to perform successfully.
The establishment of a learning organisation is not a once-off event. It requires many initiatives and interventions that in their totality result in the creation of an organisational culture that is conducive to reflecting on past performance and drawing lessons to ensure continuous improvement. As Ndebele wisdom tells us, ``A good loinskin is sewn in the general company’’. In other words, knowledge is gained by learning from the experience of others. It is through this that we can say that we have made progress over the past year with the evaluation of heads of department; conducting our first senior management service conference; publishing the first two editions of the Service Delivery Review, which hon members will find in front of the Old Assembly and which is a learning journal for the Public Service; and strengthening and multiplying the learning networks that are functioning across the Public Service. We are also going to look at reviewing of our legislative framework, and we will reflect on that within the coming months.
Through our international involvement, we have, in addition to our daunting tasks domestically, assumed an increasingly active and responsible role in public service transformation in the SADC region, in Africa through our commitment to Nepad, and in the world at large through our involvement in some of the public management think tanks in the United Nations and the Commonwealth and in other international initiatives. Through the political leadership from Cabinet and the work of the governance cluster, we are supporting the Nepad secretariat in the areas of governance and capacity- building.
We are putting the evidence before the House and clearly showing that we know which levers to pull to achieve the necessary success. The first of these is clearly to identify the cause for which we are working. Old as well as new public servants must share our vision with us. They must be inspired by the idea of serving all the people with equal enthusiasm and dedication. We must ensure that the ethical basis from which we work is beyond reproach. We must ensure that we stay current. We must ensure that our employees, who are the most valuable resources in the Public Service, are developed on a continual basis and are treated in an exemplary way so that the Public Service is able to attract and retain the best that this country has to offer. Finally, we also need to ensure that we continue to innovate and learn.
At this point, I would like to make an announcement relating to the conditions of service and the restructuring of the Public Service.
So, mnr Isaac Elliot, hier kom dit nou. [So, Mr Isaac Elliott, here it comes now.]
I would like to take this opportunity to mention that the Public Service Co- ordinating Bargaining Council, the PSCBC, concluded a landmark multiterm agreement on salaries and conditions of service for the period 2002-2004. Government is committed to the letter and spirit of this agreement and will accordingly ensure that it is not only a subject for praise but is implemented throughout the Public Service. As the Government we recommit ourselves to this agreement whilst at the same time recognising the global and local economic developments that have resulted in inflationary figures that exceed the thresholds that we earmarked in the agreement.
The April figures released by Statistics South Africa stand at 8,8%. We could not and did not foresee these developments as a result of a number of factors including the depreciation of the currency during the last quarter of 2001 and the first quarter of this year and the rise in the price of fuel. But, notwithstanding these developments, we do want to ensure that these do not impact negatively on public servants.
Following a discussion that I had with labour leaders this morning, I would like to announce that the salary adjustment for 2002-03 will be linked to CPIX - to inflation calculated year-on-year. This will take into consideration the pay progression payment. This adjustment, as I said, is in line, in principle, with the understanding reached this morning and will be finalised in the PSCBC.
I will return to this House to present the final agreement, but it is in line with inflation. Those people and all Public Service employees who know what the agreement is expected an increase that would be 7,5% plus a half percent, which would be 8%. We appeal to them to look at the inflation figures as we will ensure that we meet them and look at pay progression.
Since October 2001 and early March of this year, the employer and employee parties were engaged in protracted negotiations in the chamber on the transformation and restructuring of the Public Service. On 6 March, we signed the framework agreement, which enjoys the support of over 40% of the employee parties in the chamber. Much effort and commitment was demonstrated by Government as the employer and the Public Service unions to find a way to give effect to commitments that were made during the Public Service jobs summit at the start of 2001 regarding Public Service transformation and restructuring.
However, in view of this deadlock in negotiations with the majority of the employee parties, the terms of the agreement signed by the employer on 6 March, being the last offer we made, will now be implemented in terms of the Public Service Act and other relevant laws.
I now want to go on to the Sita board. One of the challenges that we face in keeping our organisations modern is to ensure that the organisational structure and governance arrangements for our public sector organisations continue to meet the demands of the time and context.
Sita has gone through extensive restructuring during the past year, and I would want to thank the nonexecutive board members under the chairpersonship of Sello Rasethaba for the work they have done in this regard. We are at this particular point in time ready to ensure that we hand the baton over. In this regard Cabinet has decided to appoint a new board to coincide with the end of term of the current board, and the challenges of a restructured Sita to ensure that it meets its high-tech demands and challenges. The new chairperson of the Sita board to whom we entrust the restructured Sita is Miss Zodwa Manase, who is seated on my left. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: She is on the Minister’s right.
The MINISTER: Madam Speaker, she is a capable person that brings with her strong corporate finance and oversight abilities. She will be assisted by the following nonexecutive directors, some of whom are in the gallery: Ms Lucienne Abrahams, Adv Leah Gcabashe, Mr Mike Roussos and Dr Sibusiso Sibisi. I would like to welcome these new members to our family and look forward to the benefit of their experience and expertise. [Applause.] Finally, in closing, I would like to take this opportunity to publicly and formally express my appreciation to a range of people, both those within the public administration family and those who have the interests of the Public Service at heart, for their support and their dedication. I would like to start with Prof Stan Sangweni and his Public Service commissioners, they have a very special status in the Public Service family and I would like to thank them for playing their role with the necessary integrity and independence. [Applause.]
The leaders of the various units that relate to me are the directors- general Job Mokgoro, who is unable to be with us today and is represented through the acting director-general from Samdi, Muthanyi Robinson Ramaite from DPSA, Mpumi Sikhosana from the office of the Public Service Commission, the CEO Colin van Schalkwyk from Sita and a new team member who, in a very short space of time, has already made her mark, the executive director for the Centre for Public Service Innovation, Glenda White. Without them and their respective teams, we would have not been able to stand here today and report on progress to members. I would like to thank the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, initially under the leadership of the present Chief Whip and now under the member of Parliament John Gomomo, the former president of Cosatu, who comes in as we deal with the issues of inflation and restructuring and all that, for having assisted greatly in asserting effective political oversight of the Public Service reform agenda. [Applause.]
As I say thank you to the team, I have not mentioned many. I would also like to say thank you to those who are leaving the Public Service to other jobs, having served their time. I would like to single out the longest serving of these, Miss Cindy August. She is with the Ministry and she has been in DPSA for eight years. She is now being stolen by the SA Revenue Service, to open their parliamentary office. [Applause.] I thank Cindy for her activist work within the Ministry. She kept our feet on the ground. She will get Sars’s feet on the ground as well, the taxman must understand that. There are others, and one other person whom I would like to isolate, Colleen, who is running away to Salga. This is not going to make our initiatives with local government any simpler. We will fight them hard and work as well with them, whether she is there or not. [Applause.]
I would like to say to the others who are moving on that I wish them well wherever they are going. They will serve us from wherever they are. But we grow from strength to strength. The Public Service is changing for the better and we hope this Budget Vote makes Tata Sisulu proud. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Minister, I know your home is in the left, but to point to the right and call it the left is taking it to a different level. [Laughter.]
Mr P J GOMOMO: Madam Speaker, hon Minister for the Public Service and Administration, hon members of Parliament, chairperson and members of the Public Service Commission, directors-general and deputy directors-general and also the senior management present here today, leadership of trade union organisations present here in the gallery today …
… ngephakama amaqabane ukuze abonwe. [The comrades should stand up so that they could be seen.
Since the presentation of the 2002-03 Budget by the Minister of Finance, Minister Trevor Manuel, various committees had a series of interactions within Parliament and with various departments in order to change the lives of the people of South Africa.
Today’s Budget Vote is not a different activity, but a continuation of our national political agenda to transform and accelerate service delivery for a better life for all. Once again today’s event is not a platform to simply raise problems about the Public Service, but a platform that we should use to instil a culture of good governance in our country. However, it is also paramount to raise concerns in a responsible manner for the benefit of the nation and propose strategies for improving the lives of South Africans.
The success of the state depends on the efficient performance of its Public Service. In the case of these institutions, the Budget Vote we are debating now is central and critical. We want to make sure that we move away from a control-oriented Public Service or a role-bound one to a people-centred, delivery-oriented Public Service which is an instrument of development.
It is imperative to note this. [Interjections.] Ndiyaxolisa kumfana wasemaXesibeni. [I would like to tender my apologies to the young man from the Xesibe clan.]
It is imperative to note that good work has been done in terms of policy formulation in the Public Service, but more important is the correct implementation of our policies. Recently the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration visited the SA Management Development Institute, the Department of Public Service and Administration, the State Information Technology Agency and the office of the Public Service Commission in Pretoria.
Without any doubt, from the interaction with the above-mentioned agencies, it is indeed clear that the South African Public Service is taking its rightful position. However, I sincerely appeal to the Minister for the Public Service and Administration to ensure that what is discussed in boardrooms or in offices impacts more on citizens of our country, both rural and urban.
I also want to salute the men and women in the administrative arm of Government for the job that I have observed during these visits. I just want to say to them: Keep up with the good work. Those public servants who keep on neglecting our people and who are lazy to do their job must make up their minds now, because the ANC-led Government will not allow that type of a behaviour to continue at all. [Applause.] Those who are charged with the responsibility to manage must do so with a focused mind, so that this type of behaviour does not continue. We are not running a spaza shop here, siphethe umcimbi wabantu [we are dealing with matters affecting people]. The political heads and senior management must closely monitor and evaluate administrative systems in order to identify any gaps related to poor performance.
There is no need to hear that a child died in hospital, a woman gave birth in a car here in the Western Cape or a TB hospital is to be closed in the Eastern Cape due to negligence or poor performance. We took power in order to bring about a correct political order. Let us display that order in every respect.
It is critical that each public servant is faithful to the country and its
people and abides by the Constitution in the performance of their daily
duties. I want to make it very clear to all departments, both national and
provincial, that it is not acceptable to neglect the constitutional
principles entrenched in our Constitution when performing daily tasks. The
slogan People First'' is well captured in Batho Pele’’ or ``Abantu
Kuqala’’. Therefore I request all departments to institutionalise the
principle outlined in that document. It is not just a document, but also a
programme of this Government.
In dealing these matters, let us not forget that the public can also advise us, as Government, on how to address these problems because they do not happen somewhere else, they happen in our communities. Therefore, the imbizo, an initiative of the President, allows the people of South Africa to speak and tell our Government about who it is that is blocking service delivery, what the corrupt practices are in their communities, what the administrative problems are that block the issuing of licences, identity documents, birth certificates and so forth.
The Public Service Commission has also developed a project to encourage the public to engage with the Government through the citizens’ forums. I urge political heads of both national and provincial departments to support the citizens’ forums in order to allow the public to interact with the government of their own choice, in their own languages and in their own fashion. When we said ``the people shall govern’’ it was not a political slogan, but a politically visionary agenda.
Through these forums, South Africans have to share information about matters that relate to service delivery for the benefit of our country. Once more, I appeal for co-operation in every corner of our country. I am pleased with the manner that the Department of Public Service and Administration, the Public Service Commission, other agencies and some departments are handling corruption in the Public Service. I trust that they will be able to steer their strategies in a co-ordinated fashion.
The Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, has shown its tremendous impact in the Public Service through its policies. However, the DPSA, as a policy formulation department, has performed very much within expectations. I urge departments, in respect of both the national and provincial, to ensure that they comply with any policies that have been formulated to improve the lives of people. Noncompliance cannot be tolerated at all because it affects ordinary people.
The State Information Technology Agency, Sita, has made a change in the Public Service, especially when Government policy has been formulated. It enables the Government to manage Government information of the South African population well. What is vital is how we use technology to facilitate service delivery. The SA Management Development Institute must continue building the capacity of the public servants. Retraining and refresher courses are critical in the Public Service, particularly at management level, both in national and provincial departments.
With regard to labour relations, I want to appeal to the two parties, ie the Government and the unions, to resolve their differences in the bargaining chamber in order to have a restructured and transformed Public Service.
In conclusion, I want to acknowledge the initiatives that have been shown by Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital in Gauteng province with the aim of turning around the institution, and the spirit of voluntarism which has also been shown by its local people. It is true that the Vukuzenzele project is alive.
When our President was addressing the nation in February this year, he said:
Of decisive importance to the millions of our people and the future of our country, as we meet here today, the central question we will have to answer at the end of the day is whether what we are doing as the legislature, the executive, the judiciary, the fourth estate and civil society, is helping to lift from the shoulders of our people the intolerable burden of poverty and underdevelopment.
Abantu abangafuniyo ukusebenza mabaxwaye iibhatyi zabo bahambe. Asiyiyo indawo yokudlala le siphethe ilizwe. [People who do not want to work should take their jackets and go. This is not a playground. We have to rule the country.]
However, the problems in the Eastern Cape’s health system, with regard to TB hospitals, have to be addressed in order to improve health services in the region. I trust that the DPSA and the Public Service Commission will deal with this matter with immediate effect.
My colleagues will provide a detailed policy framework on this Budget Vote soon.
KwaNtu kuthiwa: Amaqobokazana angalal’emzini sukuba elahlekile, sukuba kunyembelekile kuloo mzi. Umntu akabethwa ngomnqayi kuba umnqayi yintonga esulungekileyo yokuhambela imicimbi yomzi. Ungabetha umntu ngomnqayi sukuba umshwabulela. I-ANC iyaluxhasa olu hlahlo lwabiwo-mali. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[There is a saying among the Bantu communities that goes: The young women! Forward with the women’s good efforts! There is a stick (from a certain species of a forest tree) with which a person cannot be beaten because it is considered valuable and is only carried on certain occasions and official business. It is believed that if a person could be beaten with such a stick, that person would be cursed. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]]
Mr B G BELL: Mr Chairperson, Ministers and fellow members of Parliament, senior public servants and members of the public, it is my privilege to speak, on behalf of the DP, in this budget debate. [Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: You must apply for amnesty for Tony Leon. [Interjections.]
Mr B G BELL: I would like to pay tribute to all the public servants who have chosen to serve society although they are not always receiving the compensation that they deserve and possibly less than they could receive in the private sector.
I would like to talk about Samdi. The aim of Samdi is to provide practical and customer-driven training that can lead to improved performance and service delivery in the public sector. This aim is very commendable and should be encouraged by all. It is heartening that Samdi is fully booked and has a waiting list for certain of their programmes.
I would like to repeat my warning that unless senior management is behind any course that is being presented, no positive results will flow. Therefore it is essential that senior management has a major say in which of their staff attend courses and on course content, and when the newly trained public servant returns that he is allowed to implement what they have been taught. There is no certainty that EU donor funds will be available beyond the third quarter of this year. This problem must be addressed soon.
Financial management and project management training is receiving priority by Samdi. This is very encouraging and should be supported by all departments in view of the Public Finance Management Act, which calls for vastly improved control over finance and project management in the Public Service.
Samdi should be supported by all departments and provinces. This does not seem to be the case as only 52% of national departments are using their services at present. Samdi is a management tool and, if used by all, will improve the efficiency of the Public Service and delivery to all South Africans.
It is now required that all departmental training undertaken by Samdi must be paid for by the department concerned. It would seem that some departments are not keen on complying with the new rules, and this could cause a serious cash flow problem.
With regard to the Public Service commission, I do not want to harp on that subject, but our Public Service Commission still talks of African, coloured, indian and white in reporting, despite the debate on the subject of Africanism and the statement made by our President that he considers us all Africans.
The pattern of spending within the Public Service commission has improved considerably over the past few years and they are to be commended for that.
The anticorruption campaign that was launched with great fanfare does not seem to have got off the ground, due to extremely difficult logistic problems. We have been told that a new initiative and a more realistic operation will be put together. Hopefully this will work.
The commission is now advocating that the companies and individuals who, through their actions, are found to have acted in a corrupt manner be blacklisted. This is an excellent idea, but will only work if all of us have the same commitment to oppose corruption and comply with the rules as set out by this system.
The suggestion that a single hotline be set up for all corruption to be reported to, properly financed and well publicised, promises a great improvement on the current arrangement. It is essential that the whistle- blower always be protected.
The lack of funds spent to fight the HIV/Aids pandemic is chronic. We have been informed that a policy on HIV/Aids has been drawn up, but so far we have not seen it. It is obvious that unless we put some effort into fighting this pandemic our country’s economy will be a complete disaster and the South African nation will be decimated. The latest report from the WHO quotes a disaster looming in our Department of Education and this, obviously, will extend to all other departments.
In reporting on their activities on the current position the department only reports on numbers by race, but never by qualifications of incumbents. The verification of qualifications of all senior staff has been published. The results are very encouraging and appear to give our public services some basis on which to build for the future.
The citizens’ forum concept is excellent and should be pursued. The Batho Pele programme has lost its momentum and any effort to revive it will more than likely cost a great deal of money and still finish in failure. I did suggest a change of name, which, in my days in industry, was the ploy that we used to introduce a new management system. This may help, but we cannot put too much confidence in this trick. The citizens’ forum is a new concept for us and, I believe, will be a successful innovation.
Talking of the DPSA, at a recent briefing of the portfolio committee, we were told of the SMS annual appraisal system that was being introduced as from April this year. As all SMSs have been required to sign a performance contract with the departments, there are criteria which are laid down and are expected to be met by these highly paid and, presumably, highly qualified officials.
A performance appraisal has to be conducted on all these officials annually if they expect to be considered for bonuses as laid down by the Public Service agreements. These appraisals call for points to be allocated according to a formula, and, should an incumbent not receive more than 50% of the points, his services will be terminated. But if he is on probation, his probation period may be extended.
This policy is highly recommended on condition that the system is objectively carried out and the official had some say in the criteria used to judge him. My fear in applying this operation is that treatment will be similar to that of senior ANC politicians who have been found to be incompetent. This, invariably, has led to redeployment to a more senior level. [Interjections.] One example is a Gauteng mayor who was found to be totally incompetent as a mayor, but was acceptable as an ambassador. [Interjections.]
Concerning the Public Service delivery, during the committee period, the portfolio committee visited a number of provinces and some interesting projects.
On a visit to Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital, it was obvious that the training of nurses was being neglected. In answer to questions put to the relevant Minister, we were told that in August 2001 there was a shortage of 21% nurses and 20% doctors in the country’s Department of Health.
These statistics are very disturbing and, as the Public Service is responsible for manning, we need to look into this problem. We visited the Alexandra Renewal Project. This project is progressing well, but there appear to be some problems between the project organisers and the ANC in the area, who disagree with the project organisers’ general philosophy of the project. We trust that sanity will prevail and the experts will be allowed to drive the project to the end.
A small contingent of the committee visited the Western Cape and were impressed with what was in place. It was obvious that whatever we saw was well established and I trust that no major changes will be instituted because of the change to the ANC and the New NP coalition that is now in place. The agreement on restructuring of the Public Service signed by 40% of the unions will be a major step forward if the differences can be resolved.
With regard to Sita, from reports it appears to be gaining ground and I am sure that in time it will be a major asset to the operations of our Public Service and consequently the economy in general.
Finally, the three-year wage agreement with the the trade unions will give the Public Service the breathing space to put in place a number of outstanding issues that, if solved now, could augur well for the future. I thank the House for listening to me. [Applause.]
Mr L J MODISENYANE: Chairperson, the Department of Public Service and Administration is beginning to give effect to the implementation of the policies it has developed so far. On assessment these policies are relevant in that they are addressing the problems experienced by our communities on service delivery.
Hon members will surely agree that the labour framework agreement is beginning to bear fruit on the relationship between the Government as an employer on the one hand and the unions and associations on the other hand. I therefore commend the department on its good attempts at bettering the lives of our people.
We are aware that programmes have been put in place. The need is to speed them up, especially affirmative action and skills development, because the two go hand in hand. It is important that the Public Service reflect the demographics of the country.
My appeal is that affirmative action be understood as correcting the imbalances of the past and not reverse discrimination as some members want to believe. The implementation of affirmative action goes along with skills development so that it does not become mere tokenism to see a black face replacing a white face.
What is needed is efficiency and effectiveness in service delivery in the spirit of Batho Pele. Performance agreement contracts came at the right time, because they give management an opportunity for self-evaluation. They work according to plans they agreed to themselves.
In die ou bedeling was daar ‘n paar struikelblokke met betrekking tot
evaluering. Daar was party mense wat op 'n persoonlike basis'' beter as
hulle kollegas besoldig is hoewel hulle oor laer kwalifikasies beskik het.
As hulle kollegas meer daarvan wou weet, was dit raadsaam om liewers te
bedank, want die rede vir die hoër besoldiging was alleen daar bo iewers
bekend. [In the previous dispensation there were a few obstacles relating
to evaluation. There were some people who were remunerated better than
their colleagues on a personal basis’’ although they had lower
qualifications. If their colleagues wanted to know more about that it was
advisable rather to resign, because the reason for the greater remuneration
was only known somewhere up there.]
It is also important to note the seriousness that the department is giving to HIV/Aids. I do not see it as my colleague, Mr Bell, has just said. I see it as progress because there is a programme in partnership with relevant departments at the moment. In the long run, success will be achieved.
We must realise that before the State Information Technology Agency was put in place, information management was almost nonexistent or ineffective, especially in the former homelands. South Africa is now one country. The fragmented procurement system which was in place has been totally reversed. Those providers who milked the Government have been eliminated. The Government is now able to negotiate good deals for itself. Challenges are still there because sometimes departments do not pay bills in time. This is going to be addressed through reforms. When systems are in place, performance levels will be advanced.
The department is moving towards implementing e-government. We know that rural areas will not benefit immediately because the electrification process is still continuing and will ultimately reach the remaining places.
Seo ke se hlokometseng ke hore ho na le batho ba tatileng ho tlola tekano.
Batho bao ba hlokang mamello hangata, ke ba neng ba tjhetjhile, ba ipatile
dikgotjheletsaneng, ha dithunya di ne di shebisana le rona, nakong eo ya
boitseko. Mohlomphehi T K Mopeli o ile a bua lenaneong la Makumane a Mona
le Mane, hore batho ba bang ba nahana hore ha ANC e kena pusong e tla re
feela matlo ha a be teng'', eba matlo a ba teng: ditsela ha di be
teng’’, eba ditsela di ba teng. Mmuso o hata butle temeng ya diphetoho tse
potlakileng, etswe ``lesisitheho le ja kgomo, lepotlapotla le ja podi’’.
Ke qetella ka hore basebetsi ba ikentseng mokotla o mahlo, mohlohlwa-o-
rapame, haufinyane re tla re ho bona raka le shwetswe ke molebo''. Ke
tlatsa modulasetulo, ntate Gomomo ha ke tjho jwalo ke re ho bona, ba tla re
raka le shwetswe ke molebo’’ haufinyane. Hobane Afrika ke nako, kgale o
tjhetjhetse morao, dinaha di itlhomile pele, kajeno le rona ba se nang
mabitso re batho re a phela. (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)
[What I’ve realised is that there are people who are in a tremendous hurry.
Those impatient people are usually those who stood at the back and hidden
away when guns were rattling during the times of struggle. The hon Mr T K
Mopeli once spoke on the Makumane a Mona le Mane programme and said that
some people thought that when the ANC took over government, they would just
say: Let there be houses'', and there would be houses, orLet there be
roads’’, and there would be roads. The Government is taking everything into
stride in the process of speedy reconstruction and development because
doing things slowly but surely is worthwhile, but rushing into things is
very dangerous.
I would like to conclude by saying that those workers who are slinking around and playing truant will in the near future be told to fend for themselves. In saying that I, together with the chairperson, the hon Mr Gomomo, say to them: ``Get up! Go and fend for yourselves’’. Africa, now is the time! You stood back for a long time while other countries were taking the lead. Today, even we, the not so notorious, enjoy recognition’’.]
I therefore support the Votes of the Department of Public Service and Administration and the SA Management Development Institute.
E re ke re ha di ba mohatla kgwiti. [Ditlatse.] [Thank you.] [Applause.]]
Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Chairperson, I would like to begin my speech by expressing my sincere appreciation to the chair of the portfolio committee, the hon Mr P J Gomomo, for always initiating lively debate and discussion. We can add a heartfelt ``Hear, Hear!’’ to him.
It was Sir Wilfred Grenfell who said the following:
The service we render to others is really the rent we pay for our room on this earth. It is obvious that man himself is a traveller, that the purpose of this world is not to have and to hold, but to give and serve.
I think this is a rather appropriate assertion for this debate.
Prior to 1994 the Public Service was bureaucratic and fragmented along racial and ethnic lines. Today the Public Service has become a national asset of this country. It is this department that is the foundational department of service delivery, which, in the final analysis, touches the life of every South African.
The DPSA derives much of its challenges from the Public Finance Management Act. During the portfolio committee meetings the DPSA reported that 206 performance contracts were outstanding. Clearly, this is not acceptable. The performance contract is a measure of the person’s self-worth and an important motivator unlocking individual and human resource potential.
We know that globalisation and technology have enabled a different world, and we constantly run the risk of being outdated. So the Public Service is exercised in this dynamic and complex world. This places substantial pressure on Sita, which runs the risk of being antiquated and obsolete.
The DPSA needs to constantly and systematically review and ask pertinent questions about service delivery: its effectiveness, its outcomes, how they are delivered and the cost thereof. So the Budget Vote we debate today is really about rands and cents. It is here that we begin to realise that there is no time for flip-flops in Government. Managers have to be sound managers of public finance so that they can be able to scan and detect malpractices and corruption.
We appreciate the gender profile of the department. Constantly we are given breakdowns of senior management in terms of race and gender. But we also hope that this is not merely gender profiling or window dressing. We feel that we need to go beyond this. We need gender affirmation and we need to be developed mentally, thus creating a corporate culture. I can see the hon Minister is smiling at me, and I know that this will really be done.
Service delivery is becoming an information and knowledge-intensive process. Thus we need effective mechanisms to turn the state towards e- government, and the previous speaker spoke about this. We need to tell people what we are doing. We need to report on progress. We need to know what they are thinking. We need to listen. In the end, they are the end- users of service delivery, if service delivery reaches them.
This is where, I believe, the citizen’s jury or the citizen’s forum comes to life. The IFP would like to support this initiative because we think this is where we impact on the lives of people. We believe that Government has a lot to work on. It is not about dogma, it is about what really pays and what really works.
We need to inculcate an ethics culture. Therefore there can be no room for complacency in the DPSA. It is virtually axiomatic that people prefer to work in an ethical organisation rather than an organisation that has no standards. We need to tell employees that there is no place for them when they are incompetent, callous and corrupt.
We also need to train our Public Service personnel in skills and Public Service needs. We need a workforce adjustment programme. We need to structure programmes intelligently enough so that we begin to retain key people. Clearly, we need to address Public Service renewal, and so the emphasis of the Public Service should be on retention and not on retrenchment. A culture of performance, excellence, creativity and innovation should permeate the DPSA.
We also need change: change in organisation, in policy direction, in delivery models or change management. These changes affect the demand for services provided by the Public Service. And the Public Service has the opportunity to be a model employer and to meet the needs of Government and Ministry, and to be able to ensure succession planning, costing and organisational development.
The IFP believes that policies have to be continually reviewed, developed, enhanced and streamlined on an inventory of best practices. A strong, efficient and effective Public Service is a foundation upon which this Government carries out its priorities and meets its objectives.
Organisational stability and organisational change are constants in any public service. Often we need to be able to transform the Public Service into a business entity along the traditional lines of impartiality, honesty, accountability and professionalism.
In South Africa research on public sector procurement policy is very limited. Consequently there is a dire need to strengthen policymaking and implementation of public sector procurement, as well as the accountability of public functionaries.
The impact of HIV/Aids is increasingly felt on South African personnel. These are crucial challenges to the DPSA and public servants. Let us not have any gigantic illusions about this. Samdi needs to have a definite plan for HIV/Aids training, both in Correctional Services and the SAPS. There needs to be a certification process in place. This has not happened as yet.
The IFP is convinced that the need for service delivery institutions has to be strengthened, and here we need the anticorruption strategies to be strengthened and the blacklisting of companies.
We are also concerned that at times Samdi has become very donor-dependent. We believe that they need to move towards being a self-sustaining entity. Also, Samdi and Sita have very weak cost-recovery strategies, and the time for waiting for payment should be done away with. We should actually summon DGs of the defaulting departments. We need to remember that no matter how meticulous our plans, they will fail if we do not execute them. On numerous occasions we have questioned the department about the development of an asset register. We need to obtain this, and it has not happened as yet.
Apart from mentoring programmes, we feel there need to be monitoring programmes. We need constant reviews and delicate assessment.
At this juncture I would like to thank officials of the department for constantly coming prepared for the committee’s barrage of interrogative questioning. We saw a massive improvement in internal reporting.
We would also like to thank all the directors-general and officials. The Department of the Public Service and Administration also has to wrestle with restructuring, and this will affect the lives and livelihoods of all employees of the department. The IFP believes that restructuring needs to take place within the ambit of trying to retain all workers. Here I am reminded of the words of James Baldwin, who wrote: ``Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.’’
I cheated at the beginning of this speech with the quotation about leadership. The full quote reads as follows:
The first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. The last is to say thank you. In between the leader is a servant.
That is, I think the definition of the kind of leadership required for the Public Service of tomorrow. The successes belong to the thousands of workers who implement management programmes and are our interface with the public and the communities that we serve. The IFP supports the budget and thanks all the public servants who meticulously carry out this task for us. [Applause.]
Nkskz L MALONEY: Mhlalingaphambili, ukuba bendisentlanganisweni ngendisithi … [Chairperson, if I was at a meeting I would say …] I am covered … ndanelisekile. Kambe,, ndibhatalelwa ukumela abantu bethu, ndibathethele. Ngoko ke ndiya kwenza njalo, Mhlalingaphambili. Ngenxa yokuba sele ethe gqaba gqaba uMphathiswa ngeSamdi … [… I am satisfied. But I am paid so I could speak for the people. Therefore, I will do as required, Chairperson, because the hon Minister has briefly talked about Samdi …] … which is the South African Management Development Institution.
The theme of this Budget Vote is accelerating service delivery to provide customer care, and the managing of quality service to our people. This relates to the Government’s reconstruction and development programme which seeks to mobilise the country’s people and resources, and the final eradication of apartheid and the building of a democratic, nonracial, nonsexist future. The people of this country are its major resource. That is why we need to nurture them with the dignity and respect they deserve.
Samdi has been given the responsibility of making sure that it acts urgently to bring appropriate skills and training into the public sector and utilise information technology to advance the cause of our people, and defeat poverty and diseases. By doing that, we will be making sure that the frontiers of poverty are pushed back. For this to happen, we need a public service that creates a sense of community, that must be connected by the reality of people working together as a nation for a better life.
It is in this context that Samdi’s work has been made easy, proceeding from individual assessment needs, up to the department’s objectives and mission.
Ngoko ke oothoba sikutyele abafuneki kubasebenzi. Kuya kufuneka abasebenzi bathabathe inkxaxheba ekuphuculeni ubomi babo. Kufuneka baxele ukuba yintoni na ebahluphayo, abaswela yona, ukuze bafumane uqeqesho olulungelelaniswe nemeko yabo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[People who just do what they are told are not needed among workers. Workers are going to have to participate in developing their lives. They should say what is bothering them, what they need so that they could get training that is appropriate and suitable for their conditions and situations.]
The implementation of affirmative action policies is incorporated in managers’ training programmes. As we all know, in the year 2000 it was agreed that at management level, 50% should be black. Women should constitute 30% and the 20% should consist of people with disabilities. As we are all aware, this is part of the process of dealing with the legacy of the past. We must continue to make sure that our Public Service is representative. This task will continue until the Public Service reflects the true picture of all the people of South Africa.
In one of the briefings by the Department of the Public Service and Administration, we were told that about 47% of the money allocated for training has not yet been used by certain departments. This raises very serious concerns. The Presidential Strategic Leadership Development launch, which was organised by Samdi, was intended to take the Public Service programmes forward. All the directors-general and senior managers attended that function. The launch was specifically aimed at increasing capacity at the higher levels of the Public Service leadership.
The PSLDP, as it is called in short, stimulated interest both nationally and internationally, for example, in SADC countries. I know for a fact that the University of Pretoria was seen as the best institution for rolling out the Presidential Strategic Leadership Development Programme, of course working together with Samdi. But my concern is whether Samdi has any future plan in taking this popular programme to the previously disadvantaged universities and technikons.
Of Samdi’s budget for this financial year, 93% has been spent, which I think is good news. The EU funds that Samdi is getting are welcome, but it should be alert and not end up getting instructions and terms of reference that do not address the department’s objectives. The funding should be integrated in training and development programmes which respond to Government priorities and impact on the performance of the Public Service.
In one of Samdi’s reports, it told the portfolio committee that they had taken over courses such as discipline and evaluation from the Department of Public Service and Administration, and provided training with no financial assistance from the department. To me, that was daylight robbery, as charity begins at home. The Department of Public Service and Administration must lead by example. They must know that there is nothing for ``mahala’’ [nothing]. The Big Brother style is not acceptable at all. In future, when the department decides to transfer certain programmes, they must know that that goes with responsibility.
In Samdi’s report, tabled in the portfolio committee, they also reported that some departments refused to pay and cancelled courses already booked. This is not acceptable at all. Firstly, those departments must know that they still owe Samdi a cancellation fee. Secondly, those departments must know that training of managers is not a choice, but to make sure that the Government strengthens our Batho Pele policy and provides quality service for all South African citizens to have a better life. Thirdly, it is time for them to take training seriously. It should be clear in their minds that Samdi is not a charity organisation, and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
I want to talk about Nepad, which is a new phenomenon in the Public Service, which will need new strategies to be formulated, so that they will be able to grab the opportunities of learning from one another and share our different expertise as a continent.
A meeting that took place between Samdi, the Gender Commission and the Office on the Status of Women is a good move, as a meeting of this nature will assist Samdi in its preparation for the training programme on gender issues, as women, and blacks in particular, were previously disadvantaged, discriminated against, oppressed and marginalised. Democracy will not be complete unless women are put in their rightful places. [Applause.]
Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, two weeks ago the Minister for the Public Service and Administration told the portfolio committee that she was looking forward to today’s debate. She expressed her wish for a vigorous exchange during the debate. Unfortunately, the hon Waters is not here today so there will not be any feeble remarks in the members’ debate.
One can understand the Minister’s wish. For any Minister who is dedicated to his or her task, the budget debate of the department is both the time to reflect on performance and the time to contemplate the future, more so if one’s views and ideas are not stagnated by the past but rather driven by the excitement and challenges of the future that lies ahead.
The past should be seen as the source of power that will drive people to work together for a new future full of hope and understanding of the challenges. The poet and writer Sipho Sepamla sees the past and the future in a special way that should speak not only to all of us in this House, but to every public servant, old and new. He writes as follows, and I quote:
I want to talk life and bury waste the life of the gathering race and not the hate of tribes I long for the lost past but I won’t unearth that because there is a past I don’t want to hustle there is instead a future I must embrace there is for you and me a place we can huddle together to make this fire burn evermore
I believe that it was with the same vision for a united South Africa with a transformed Public Service that would understand and meet the challenge to improve the quality of life of the millions of disadvantaged people that former President Mandela appointed the Presidential Review Commission on the Reform and Transformation of the Public Service in South Africa. On producing its report, the Presidential Review Commission noted that, and I quote:
The magnitude of the task of reforming and developing the Public Service is such that the way forward will require the most careful consideration by the Government as well as a wide process of consultation.
In the last sentence of the report, the commission states:
We are accordingly confident that the paths of reform we have indicated can and will be vigorously pursued in the years ahead.
Therefore it is imperative that we, as political role-players, should decide whether we want to be part of the process to build, reshape, adjust and improve for better results, in the quest for good service and effective governance; or whether we want to be obstructive, negative and suspicious about every aspect of change.
Are we prepared to share in the clear and commonly accepted national vision or are we, at least, willing to enter into vigorous and positive debates to contribute to what should be our vision as a nation? Are we clearly and unequivocally committed to change that will make provision for those who have been deprived for so many years and also take care of those who need to be protected against unfair practices, both in the labour and social spheres of society? Or is our commitment restricted to window-dressing visits to townships and institutions for the sake of propaganda and cheap TV shots? [Interjections.]
As die skoen pas, trek hom aan. [If the shoe fits, wear it.]
We should ask ourselves: How much are we buying into the process of institutional re-engineering, with specific emphasis on reconstruction, nation-building and streamlining of bureaucratic procedures, in order to make Government departments more user-friendly? Do we agree with the improved system of human resource development in order to build the skills and capacity that is required by the new Public Service?
We must support every effort towards effective forms of intersectoral co- ordination because that is essential for fostering integration in policy- making and the implementation of programmes that would positively affect the day-to-day living of the people in this country. It is our duty to ensure that the system of monitoring and evaluation, which will produce public servants who are efficient and effective within Government, is developed. If we expect our officials to maintain the highest standard of work ethics and productivity in order for Batho Pele to succeed, we must provide them with the necessary skills and tools. We should ask ourselves: What is the example that members of Parliament are setting in buying into the very processes and systems that we create for this country? Are we showing respect for rules and regulations that are supposed to guide us in our conduct and commitment to duties? Or are we making a mockery of this institution that is supposed to provide public servants with policy and guidance?
How do we treat serious issues such as HIV/Aids and corruption? Are we merely using those as a political football to score cheap political points? Or are we positively trying to contribute to deal with the development of risk management strategies for the Public Service such as a comprehensive HIV/Aids policy and the anticorruption strategies that the department wants to implement?
In our fight against corruption, we need to join forces by monitoring the activities of Government departments and officials who operate in our constituencies and areas of responsibility. We need to ask ourselves whether we have taken up the full responsibility of ownership. The money and assets of this state are our responsibility. We are the custodians of democracy. Are we good stewards, or are we willing to turn to a blind eye when it suits us? How do we follow up on known cases? Do we follow up or do we forget once those have lost their cheap propaganda value?
The New NP is mindful of the important role that the Department of Public Service and Administration should play in order to bring the effects of good governance to the people. The role that the DPSA plays in the co- ordination and integration of policies within the Government and administration cluster is emphasised by the fact that both the Minister and the director-general are the co-ordinators of the Ministers and directors- general who fall within this cluster.
In order to grow and adjust, it is also essential that we look at the needs and areas of concern that have a negative impact on the quality of life of so many people. I believe that the process of service delivery asked of us to look closely at the interaction between Government departments such as Social Development and Home Affairs, Education and Social Development, and Health and Social Development, to name but a few. I can provide this House with numerous examples where the lack of commitment in one department had a disastrous effect on service delivery in the other.
Another area of concern is the inability or lack of capacity by Government departments to spend their budgets. This also applies to provincial departments where services are deteriorating at an alarming speed, with the usual excuse of shortage of funds, only to find out at the end of the financial year that a department has underspent. The result is that the poor, the sick and the affected are worse off than ever before. This is simply not acceptable. I want to appeal to the Minister today to please exert pressure on those departments which are committing an injustice to the people out there who are in need, but are deprived by underspending due to a lack of commitment from MECs and senior management.
Finally, in the words of Sepamla: Let us talk life - the life of the gathering race. Let us all huddle together in an effort to make this fire burn for evermore. Let us take care and develop. Let us support and build.
We would like to express our thanks on the part of the New NP to the chairperson, who has shown his capable leadership in the committee, the dedicated officials who have to face the day-to-day challenges of this department and the Minister for the announcement, this afternoon, that the Government is willing to look after its public servants in the way that she announced here. The New NP supports this Vote. [Applause.]
Mr M R BALOYI: Chairperson and honourable House, as I participate in this debate my focus will be on the impact of the activities of the Public Service Commission on the drive for a Public Service geared towards the distribution of services to enhance the quality of life of our people.
The Public Service Commission was established as an independent organisation to monitor and evaluate the activities of the Public Service organs and to report to Parliament for action. My experience of the style of work of the Public Service Commission is that they are a true partner for service delivery. Notwithstanding the fact that the Public Service Commission’s formal inception came about in mid-1999, we are proud to acknowledge that by the end of 2001 they had investigated and reported on over 31 cases. In all such investigations, they made recommendations for consideration by affected departments and provinces.
In answering the question as to whether service excellence is a myth or a reality, the PSC sifted through the multiple meaning that people attach to the concept of service delivery. They arrived at the conclusion that it meant service excellence and that it was an attainable reality. I think that this honourable House will agree with them, as I do, the more so when we consider that it is all about performing within norms and standards and always achieving the objectives set within the limitation of resources to bring about a change for the better in people’s lives.
Of course, we may not have shining examples all around us, but we are proud of instances such as the Excellency Award ceremony held in Limpopo province to honour those outstanding performers.
Hambi yona Ndzawulo ya Dyodzo eka Xifundhantsongo xa N’walungu-Vuxa bya provhinsi ya Lipompo yi swi kotile ku lulamisa ntlangu wo tlhoma risiva eka vadyondzisi, vana va xikolo na swikolo leswi nga tirha hi ku chivirika eka lembe ra 2001, lowu nga endliwa erivaleni ra mintlangu ra Giyani. Leswi swi komba leswaku loko hi vulavula hi vukorhokeri bya tiko a hi vulavuli milorho, swa humelela hi ntiyiso.
Loko a nkekela hi rito ra ntsako eka xinkhubyana lexi, wanhwana Ivy Makhubele wa xikolo xa le henhla xa Nyanisi eka Nhlaneki, u rhambile vanhu va swiyimo swo hambana-hambana leswaku va chivirika ku kondza va ta humelela na vona. Loko ndzi ri karhi ndzi hoyozela xifundhantsongo lexi xikan’we na murhangeri wa xona, yena Xipetani Nkuna, ndzi rhandza ku rhamba vanhu va Afrika Dzonga hinkwavo leswaku hi amukela ku ri ku humelela ka tiko ra hina ku le mavokweni ya hina. A hi hunguteni vulolo, swicele na makwanga, hi tirhela tiko ra hina. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)
[The Department of Education managed to organise a teachers’ award ceremony at the North East Education Circuit in the Limpopo province. It was a teachers’, pupils’ and schools’ award ceremony for the best teachers, pupils and schools, those that excelled during 2001. The function took place at the Giyani stadium. This shows that whenever we speak of real service delivery in a country we are not just dreaming, we are speaking of reality.
Ivy Makhubele, wh is a female student at Nyinisi High School in Nhlaneki, sang a beautiful song and she was full of joy while singing. People of different status were encouraged to work hard in order to be successful. I congratulated the whole education circuit and the principal of the above- mentioned school, Mr Xipetani Nkuna. I want to inform all South African citizens to accept that the success of our country is in everybody’s hands. We should do away with laziness, gossiping and greed, and work for our country.]
As I was doing constituency work at Maseke village, in the Phalaborwa area, I was impressed by the level of satisfaction of the villagers there due to the electricity and water supply projects by the Department of Minerals and Energy and the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, in partnership with Ba-Phalaborwa municipality. All these and other unmentioned delivery highlights attest to and confirm the PSC’s understanding that service excellence is an attainable reality.
Of course, the playing field is not smooth. There are serious challenges such as the scourge of corruption borne out of an historical reality of decades of this country being ruled by a politically corrupt and immoral regime, whose public service was geared towards control and domination, and not service-delivery.
As a true partner for service delivery, the PSC is relentlessly leading the war against corruption. In his own words, when he was addressing the global forum on fighting corruption and safeguarding integrity, the PSC chairperson, Professor Sangweni, said, and I quote:
To understand our approach to fighting corruption, it is important to also understand that we have a proud history of mobilising ordinary citizens, civil society and the international community to fight the previous corrupt regime. So, fundamental to our approach to fighting corruption is, again, to mobilise ordinary citizens, civil society and the international community.
The ordinary citizens are requested to blow the whistle on corruption and departments are urged to act on such reports. We must not keep quiet about corruption; we must report it.
The other challenge is that of the implementation of the PSC recommendations by Government departments, in which case not all is well. What is encouraging is that the PSC is developing a tracking system on the implementation of their recommendations and that they chose to adopt a process of partnering in terms of which departments will be taken on board with regard to implementation arrangements.
We would like to appeal to Government departments not to fear the PSC as it is a true partner for service delivery. The PSC is not there to police or expose them. It wants to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, all for excellence in service delivery.
In its civil society mobilisation effort, the PSC has introduced the concept of public participation forums through which it will call on the public to participate by sharing their experiences about services they receive from the Public Service establishments with a view to paying attention to those areas that might need improvement.
The PSC is now marketing this tool with the full support of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration. It is on record that the PSC has been successful in fulfilling their mandate save for what used to be a DA-controlled Western Cape provincial government where the work of the Public Service Commission was so hampered that they could not monitor the implementation of the national norms and standards.
It is encouraging, though, now that even in the Western Cape the situation is conducive for the PSC to do its work unhindered by the politics of backwardness characteristic of DA’s conduct. Once more, the PSC should be seen for what it is, a true partner for service delivery.
Before I take my seat, I want to address the hon Bell on the claim that when we had provincial visits he observed a problem between the ANC and the project organisers at Alexandra township. I want to inform him that there was no problem between the ANC and the organisers of the project. As we visited the township, all that we saw, to our satisfaction, was the rebirth of Alexandra. Maybe hon Bell is not used to situations in which consultation and discussions take place, because in his party they only listen, listen, listen, obey and listen. What actually happened was that we had an arrangement to visit that project, where we would receive an on-site briefing. That was the only thing. I hope that hon Bell will note this and start to think like an hon member of this House. [Applause.]
Mr T ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, in our recent visits as the portfolio committee to various institutions falling within the ambits of the Public Service and Administration, it was glaringly obvious that wherever senior management displayed certain qualities, the morale of the staff was high and enthusiasm amongst them went a long way towards overcoming any lack of experience.
At this stage I interrupt myself to single out the director-general of Samdi, Mr Tebogo Mokgoro, and the deputy director-general, Ms Melanie Bernard-Fryer, for special mention. They obviously, in their performance, take their example from the Minister. Several speakers have enlarged on the work of Samdi and have referred to their foreign funding problems, so I will not delve into that. Other top-rate performers in the various departments that we visited will likewise be held up for praise in due time.
To return to the qualities required in those who hold senior management positions, does a senior manager require the intellectual capacity of an Einstein? I would argue that such an intellectual giant is actually the worst manager possible and also far out of the reach of the taxpayer’s wallet. The senior manager with a great fund of logical common sense is far more valuable than one who is prone to intellectualise about anything and everything. One who makes carefully considered decisions based on clear values is a greater asset than one who makes predictable snap decisions shaped by self-serving personal preference.
On the other hand the ability to intelligently interpret policy and to communicate the same is a sought-after quality, which cannot be expected of a dullard. In this respect the senior management service, which is a programme introduced in January last year to professionalise the senior management tier of the Public Service, is a commendable effort.
In the time available I must again touch on the proposed restructuring of the Public Service. While this is a matter which is still being negotiated at the PSC bargaining council, it has become a source of anxiety throughout the service. It is understood that already skilled public servants are not evenly distributed between and within departments, both nationally and provincially. It has also been argued that the service is bloated because of the uncertainty of their positions, though rightly or wrongly, several perceptions have grown in departmental institutions, of which I will mention a few.
Firstly, the Sword of Damocles looms over those who dare perform. The perception is that if some Big Brother decides that there are too many stars shining in one place, the constellation must be diffused. Secondly, it is widely believed that it is always the more skilled and dedicated performers who must be thinned out or completely dimmed out.
While the intentions behind the restructuring and the bona fides of the designers of the system are understood and above reproach, some thought must be given to the fact that, firstly, it takes time, effort and dedication for any departmental institution to build up a staff complement where the majority function successfully as a co-operative and stars begin to shine. Secondly, distributing the collective acquired skills of such an institution in the hope that the parts count for more than the sum and that success can be replicated in this manner is counterproductive because we are dealing with people, not automatons. Thirdly, there is the inevitable loss to the total Public Service system due to the devil of retrenchment.
I would urge the Minister to consider that there is no quick fix for the damage that has been done in the course of generations of oppression. There is, though, the hope and chance to accelerate transformation by firstly focusing further on skills development, motivation and training where these are lacking within the service; secondly, fostering the growth of teamwork by removing uncertainty in the workplace; and, thirdly, encouraging the cross-pollination of ideas and skills by recognising co-operative functioning within departmental institutions.
Our illustrious chairman, Mr John Gomomo, has advised about what to do with rotten apples. Even then, regrettably, the process of transformation can only be hastened, not condensed into a year. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms M A SEECO: Chairperson, the debate on the Budget Vote: Public Service and Administration should centre around the aim of the department, which is to lead the modernisation of the Public Service by assisting Government departments to implement Government policies in order to improve service delivery. The department is to be praised for greater things such as the launch of information technology, projects which will culminate in the implementation of the ideal government strategy. For this purpose the State Information Technology Agency will be allocated a substantial chunk of the budget.
In the interests of good governance it is important that negotiations between the department and organised labour in the Public Service are drawing to a close. We hope at the end of it all, in the Batho Pele spirit, we will all be winners.
It is very significant that the core budget will increase annually by 15,5% between 2001-02 and 2004-05 to reduce its reliance on donor funding, as has been the case thus far. The UCDP applauds the department for engaging additional staff who will be dedicated to the HIV/Aids action campaign and related issues. The Public Service is mainly people-driven and therefore attention has to be given to People First - Batho Pele.
The Public Service Commission, on the other hand, serves as a watchdog over the Public Service. It is at pains to root out corruption, to instil a good work ethic and to improve the conditions of service of all public servants. The PSC will be properly placed in playing an active role in the Moral Regeneration Movement in the Public Service.
Re ikopela gore bodiredi bo tokafale mo setšhabeng, go utlwisisa … [We are appealing that services should improve in our community, to understand …] [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mna R J B MOHLALA: Modulasetulo, mohlomphegi Tona le maloko ao a hlomphegago, Sepedi se re kgenkgerepe ge e sega ka leino le tee, ka le lengwe e a epa. Go realo re ra gore lehono ge re bolela ka tekanyetšo ye ya Tirelo ya Batlhankedi ba Mmušo, re swanetše go hlokomela gore ngwageng wo fetilego re kile ra dula gona mo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[Mr R J B MOHLALA: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, there is a proverb in Sepedi that says one should not trust one’s friends too much. Today, as we debate the Budget Vote of the Department of Public Service and Administration, we should remember that last year we sat here and talked about the same things.]
In actual fact I remember that since the last debate one hon member in this House is no longer on speaking terms with me. [Laughter.] Be that as it may, the portfolio committee was able to change that hon member, and when he stood the podium today, I saw a changed person.
Ke humane e le motho yo a titilwego, a hlwekilego fela e le gore ga a na hlabego ye ntšinyana. Go ka re nkabe re hlwaetše hlabegonyana mohlomongwe o be a ka ba motho yo mokaone. O be a tloge a kgwahliša. Nka se mmolele ka leina. [He was a changed person, a true person, even though he still needs patching up here and there. I wish we had a human acid so that he could ferment into a fully fledged human being. But, he spoke very well. I would not like to mention his name, though.]
When we visited the provinces last year, we visited Khayelitsha, and we visited the Department of Home Affairs in Khayelitsha. We were confronted with more than a thousand IDs which had not been collected, and clearly this is not acceptable. Our public servants should find a way of ensuring that the final product that they have developed finds its way to the people who are suppose to get it. These are some of the problems. These should not be seen as a crisis, but as problems on which we need to sharpen up so that we have well-oiled machinery in the Public Service.
Our recent visit to the North West exposed me to certain experiences. We visited a small village called Seweding outside Mafikeng. At this village we were shown a wonderful water project. The villagers, for a change, can now access tap water. There are several taps laid in the community so that about 200 members of the community can access clean water. But what was very interesting was that one member of the community told us that when we plan, we plan for people only, and we forget that they have livestock. He explained that one cow drinks about 1 500 litres a day. What if there are 100 cows in the community? The problem with us is that we only plan for the people and forget that the cows have to drink water. [Laughter.] That was one problem.
The other problem that he raised, after a long period of discussion was in
the form of a question to us: Since your car came here, how many other
cars have driven down this road?''. We said:None, and why are you asking
us that question?’’. He said: ``The nearest clinic is 15 km away and the
nearest school is 20 km away, so if one of you should fall sick, there are
no cars. As there is no car passing here, how do you reach the clinic?’’ I
am saying that when one looks at service delivery these are some of the
things that we need to sharpen up.
Be that as it may, when we talk about issues we sometimes get taken up by issues and forget where we come from. We come here and are told the following: Firstly, that senior ANC politicians who are incompetent are rewarded for their incompetence. Maybe this is a fact, but let us really look at the issues. If one looks to my left today, one will realise that there is a peculiar absence of very familiar faces, and it is not that difficult to understand why we do not have the people who normally make a noise. [Interjections.] There is no noise in this House today, because all the noisemakers, wherever they are, are listening quietly.
Why are they listening? It is because for the first time they are facing a situation where they have to tell this whole world about the type of civil servants they employed, the ones who would even bug their offices. One cannot afford to have such civil servants. I am happy to say that they are not among the civil servants that we need. When the President referred to those civil servants who are not prepared to work, - ``ba swanetše gore ba gate kosini’’ [they must leave the Public Service] - he meant even the ones who are not prepared to work but bug offices.
Ba swanetše gore ba gate kosini. Ka Sepedi re re ge o ka re o bona mošimane wa sethakga a kitakita kgauswi le madima, gomme wena wa ba setlatla wa re o a mo etša, o tlo wela ka bodibeng. [They must leave the Public Service. In Sepedi we say that if you see someone rejoicing and hopping near the river bank, and you think you could do the same, you will end up drowning.]
In simple terms, in order to assist those who do not understand the language, who are not as educated as I am … [Interjections.] I am saying: When people do things one must not always try to emulate them, because you might emulate those things which they do, but end up in serious trouble. We won the election in the whole country, but they, because they have a small room which makes them think they have won elections at that level, cannot try and emulate us, as the ones in a bigger house. [Laughter.]
I imagined intelligence as being a national competency. But because they think they have a state within a state, they bring their own intelligence. [Interjections.] But because they do not have training capacity what they do is to go and fetch the dead wood and bring it in. Guess where they are putting the device? In a strongroom. [Laughter.]
We are told of a shortage of nurses. I can tell members that before I became a politician I was once a manager. One can never determine whether there is a shortage of personnel unless one has the organisational structure of that concern. How does one know that there is a shortage of nurses? Has one developed new skills? Is one now a sangoma? [Laughter.] How does one know? The problem is that we were there. A person who is visiting us sees things that we do not see. The truth of the matter is that there are problems in Chris Hani Baragwanath. We saw those problems, but it is not a shortage of nurses. What we saw was that the queues are still long. That needs to be corrected, and we accept that. So what I am saying is …
Ge nkabe o titietšwe gabotse, Ntate Ben, o be o tla tlogela baoki wa bolela seo o se bonego. Bjalo ka go re o motabo ga o a kwala, wena o lebeletše baoki. [Disego.] [If you were a real man, Mr Ben, you would leave nurses alone and speak about something that you have seen. But, because you are not well mixed, you have deviated and now you talk about nurses. [Laughter.]]
There are other things that we need to indicate. In the past we used to have a typical public servant who behaved like this: We would come to work at 07:45 because that is the time he had to start working, but at 07:45 he would prepare to drink tea. 08:00 he would drink tea and continue until 08:30. At 08:30 he would prepare to work, but he would start working at 09:00. At 09:30 he would prepare for tea. He would drink tea from 10:00 to 10:30. At 10:30 he would then one prepare to start working. He would work from 11:00 to 11:30 and prepare for lunch. If one were to check the rest of his programme one would see him preparing for tea at 15:00 and even preparing to knock off. The bulk of time was taken in preparing, and not working. Now today we have a transformed Public Service that does not prepare to work or prepare to drink tea but actually does work most of the time, and we need to commend the organisation for that. [Applause.]
There is one thing that I need to make quite clear before I sit down. When we make public appearances as politicians and go on provincial visits we need to develop reports after that and bring the reports here. We must find a way of ensuring that whatever recommendations are in the report find their way into this department.
Bjalo ge, šiba, boTony Leon, ba tloga mo ba ya Delft ba kgobokanya batho ka
ntlong segalagala, ba dula le bona ba ba botša dilo di ganang go fela. Ge
ba fetša ga go na moo ba yago. Ge e re ke direla batho dintlo, ba tla ka
morago ga gago, ba fihla bare Aowa, dintlo tše ke tše nyenane, dintlo tše
ke tša mohuta mang''? Seo ba sa se botsego batho ke go re, bona, ga se nke
ba aga le ntlo le e tee. [Now here they are, Tony Leon and company, they go
to Delft, mobilise the people there and tell them endless stories, but they
are not going anywhere. When we try to build people houses, they come after
us and say:But these houses are small, What kind of houses are these?’’
etc. What they do not tell people is that they themselves have never built
a single house for anybody.]
Let me share a secret with the House. The DP as a political party has never governed. It has never been in government and shall never be in government. So why do we listen to people who do not have any experience in governing. We are flogging a dead horse. ``O šika-šika lehlabeng.’’ [They are just wandering in the desert.]
The DP will never govern, and it has never governed. I would rather listen
to the New NP. They governed and messed things up, and they can tell us
that they did so. [Applause.] At least they have experience and will be
able to warn one and say, Do not do as we did there. This is a mess, and
we know what we are talking about. That is the right thing to do.'' Those
are the people one can listen to, not people who know absolutely nothing
and say:Let us advise you.’’ How?
In conclusion … ka Sepedi re re, tša bopudi di molaleng, tša bonku dibipilwe ka mesela. [… do not wash your dirty linen in public.]
It is easy, when one is transparent, for people to see what one is doing. I want to leave members with this saying: It is only when one works that one commits mistakes, and people will realise those mistakes, but if one is not working, one will not commit any mistake. So let us work and let the Minister also continue working. Isukile. Ke a leboga. [Thank you.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, in the spirit of the last input, let me quote Karl Marx:
Philosophers have only interpreted the world; the thing, however, is to change it.
I am sure Karl Marx was not referring to the philosophers on my left, but let them also be counted in that.
I just want to start off with a matter that was raised by the Deputy Speaker. She said that I kept on pointing to the right and calling it the left. Now, I was a little worried because I thought that she may want to suggest that I was dressing up the old in the new. But I thought that I should expose the culprit. Sitting in the gallery is my mother, and my mother has never been able to tell the left from the right. [Laughter.] When driving she would say turn left, and when we turned, she would say, ``No, no, I meant the other left’’. [Laughter.] [Applause.] I think the Deputy Speaker was reminding me that I also needed to thank her for her own role in making possible a lot of what we are all involved in in many ways. I think we see that now in community action and mistake the left for the right.
I just want to take this remark a little further. Normally those who are involved in the good are situated on the left. In the instance of this Parliament, I am not looking from the door facing the Speaker, but I have my back to the Speaker so I made the opposite assumption. I want to thank everyone for their inputs into the debate this afternoon. They were generally constructive. I would want to agree with members and remind them that last year the hon Comrade Johnny kept on complaining that he was deaf in his left ear. This year, he seems to have lost that deafness in his left ear because he has somehow brought everyone from his left ear onto his right-hand side, I presume.
I want to agree with him and the hon Van Jaarsveld that we do not have the spoilers participating in this debate. As was stated by Van Jaarsveld, those that come in order to chip away in a narrow sense did not find the space here today, because today we were engaging quite constructively in the challenge facing the Public Service in this country and what the issues are to give effect across the Public Service to the challenges. The President posed this more directly this week, and I want to quote him:
We should bring into being a new worker who is capable of handling, in addition to the traditional concerns of the working people, the complexities of the new economic and social reality. This new worker should be as concerned with improving his or her lot as he or she is in working towards the collective good of the nation, the continent and the world.
We do not want the kind of worker that the hon Comrade Johnny described, that has tea from morning to afternoon. Sadly, some people can actually identify such workers. But I think that the message going out this afternoon is that we are trying to bring into being a new worker and we are going to do it together: a worker that has a commitment to the country, to the community and to himself or herself. No longer is the work of Public Service and Administration solely focused on internal regulatory, structural and system changes within the South African arena. Whilst this remains important, as we heard earlier in the debate, our mandate goes beyond that. In our region, Nepad captures this as articulated by presidents in our region.
We need to contribute to the general social and economic upliftment within the country, and through ensuring that the most marginalised of our people are receiving better services from Government, that they are not inside strongrooms using Watchdogs. I am sure the hon deputy chair of the commission, playing his independent oversight role, could have talked about these issues a lot more, as he also serves on that commission, ensuring that our focus is correct and that the challenge of poverty alleviation is the one that we take extremely seriously.
Developing capacity within the Public Service ensures that we are not only making available skills to Government in order to run it more effectively, but also to the broader economy, to build sustainable institutions and stimulate growth. Our human resource development programme, therefore, takes into account the larger context within which the development of skills of our public servants should take place. The growing recognition of the need to place issues of the African continent and the developing world on the international agenda places on us the responsibility not only to consider local needs but rather to constantly think regionally and globally.
Our development as a nation is intrinsically linked to the development of our region and of our neighbours, and therefore needs to be strongly informed by our role within the dynamic and often difficult international arena. So, our commitment to change remains constant, but not unreflective. We will not drive a process for change for the sake of being able later to say that things are no longer the same. Change, simply for its own sake, is not progress. We are committed to change that results in a responsive and effective system of governance, skilled and committed public servants, and maximum use of the capacity-building that is required and will take place.
Let me quickly deal with some of the specifics. Let me come to some of the issues that hon Bell raised. The hon member should know that some of the concerns he raised about the anticorruption programme are pertinent yet outdated. They are outdated because our anticorruption programme has already been improved, as indicated in my input earlier, as well as by the adoption of the Public Service anticorruption strategy and the submission of the Prevention of Corruption Bill. I think he should read that strategy. I am sure he may have perused it, but he will see in it that the blacklisting of corrupt individuals and businesses has been identified and dealt with.
We have looked at the improved whistle-blowing mechanism that is required and the witness protection system, and specific actions are taken around that. I think, however, what is necessary to be emphasised is that it is not only a Government programme. It is something that all South Africans must own, and I hope the chair of the anticorruption forum, who represents civil society, is here today, Advocate Dali Mpofu, because civil society and business need to reflect on their inputs. The whole business survey, I think, is an important initiative. On the basis of clear objective data we want to determine the extent of corruption within and across business and the private sector. We want to look at graft and fraud, but we also do not want to confuse issues and try to suggest that only one group should drive the process.
On financial management training in Samdi, this is a key area for Public Service departments. Samdi treats it as such and has hence prioritised this training.
On the issue of what the hon member called racial descriptions in Government I want to pause there and say that nonracialism does not mean being race blind, just as nonsexism does not mean that we need to be gender blind. We are engaged in programmes that have been identified in the White Paper on the Transformation of the Public Service, in which we laid out clear targets on the kind of representativity we want to achieve.
If we want to assess that target, to make sure that the face and the structure of the Public Service are correct, we have to determine whether and how the various groupings, as we want to ensure their representativity, are represented. This is essential and necessary for the transformation of the Public Service. So let us not call race or gender blindness nonsexism or nonracism. I think Samdi should probably look at running a programme around these issues for some people that we may not want to mention at this point in time.
On the Presidential Strategic Leadership Development Programme, I want to say that it has been extended to previously disadvantaged universities and that Samdi is working with six of the Jupmet universities, including institutions like UWC, UDW and Fort Hare. I think it is also necessary to say that it is not the University of Pretoria that is rolling out this programme, but the Open Learning Group. The University of Pretoria is accrediting that programme.
On project management, I want to state the obvious as well, namely that it is one of Samdi’s popular courses and we will continue offering it. Somebody made the point that Sita and Samdi are very bad in terms of self- sufficiency, but I am sure the member wanted to say that maybe they are bad debt collectors. Maybe they are not just collecting money from within Government itself. Let me just reassure the member that having heard what has been raised, they are going to make sure that they are better debt collectors. They do not want to behave like normal debt collectors, but they will ensure that money that needs to be transferred is transferred.
I think one of my last few points relates to the input on HIV/Aids. The regulatory provisions on the management of HIV/Aids have indeed been developed in consultation with our stakeholders and are currently under consideration. The standards will take forward an agreement that we have reached with unions within the PSCBC and we are completing this within a comprehensive workplace manual and focused training programmes.
I would also like to add something on the issue of SMS performance management. We listened to the advice given here today very carefully. An SMS is not the text message on a cellphone. It is the Senior Management Service that was referred to by various members. The Senior Management Service includes those who are directors and upwards in government. As from 1 April this year they all have to sign performance agreements as a mandatory requirement. Those who refuse to enter into such agreements will make themselves guilty of misconduct. I am certain that managers who really want to serve will not refuse.
I think I also have to note, at this point, that the restructuring framework embodies a number of strategies to deal with the retention of personnel. We are not negotiating it any longer.
We are going to go through various discussions and workshops, and one such will be on 28 May. This framework looks at retraining the workforce, in line with the requirements of posts that are available. It looks at the redeployment of personnel from areas of abundance to areas of need. It has a social plan and it also looks at the human resource plans of individual departments to ensure that skills that are needed are retained within the Public Service.
So I want to say, in the case of those who, according to the hon Mr Abrahams, perform well but have the sword of Damocles hanging over their heads, challenging them to perform, let the hon member come and have a discussion with me. Let us talk about those departments. Let us talk about those individuals because we do not want any sword hanging over those who should remain.
I would want to say again, in conclusion, that I proudly lead quite a competent team. The teams with me would sometimes say that they think I am pushing too hard. But I think that as they listened here today they will know that the need is great, and so is the impatience. But we are not going to try and get water to jump across the gully. We are going to do things correctly, but we do need to deal with them with some speed. Efficient service delivery is a right that our people deserve and a right that they need. So I thank them for their work. My impatience will not stop, but they will listen to the voices of the people all the time.
Again, to those who walk the extra mile over and above the call of duty, it is greatly appreciated. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Minister, you have just confirmed to all of us that a mother’s influence is, indeed, a lasting influence.
Debate concluded.
Minister Balfour, the Minister of Sport and Recreation, has requested me to announce to the House that Bafana Bafana won their match against Turkey. [Applause.] If it matters to you, they won by two goals to nil. [Applause.]
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, on a point of intervention - I apologise for interrupting - I think it is necessary for us all to toast Bafana’s win. Everyone is therefore welcome to join us at the cocktail party. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, do you see what happens when Bennie McCarthy scores both goals? You are the beneficiaries. You are the beneficiaries and you are invited to toast this victory.
Furthermore, the Minister said that the overall performance of the team during the match leaves us, and these are his own words, ``without a doubt that the team is maturing, and if today’s performance is anything to go by, they will be a force at the World Cup and South Africans will have plenty to look forward to’’. [Applause.]
Yes, we indeed wish them well.
KWAZULU CANE GROWERS' ASSOCIATION ACT REPEAL BILL
(Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee on Bill)
Report adopted without debate.
KWAZULU CANE GROWERS' ASSOCIATION ACT REPEAL BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
The House adjourned at 16:49. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Defence:
The Strategic Plan for the Department of Defence for 2002-2005 [RP 34-
2002].
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the RSA/Seychelles Double Taxation Agreement, dated 1 November 2001:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Seychelles and the Government of the Republic of South Africa for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.
Report to be considered.