TUESDAY, 11 JUNE 2002 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 09:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

CONSIDERATION OF FURTHER REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND    CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT ON CROSSING-THE-FLOOR LEGISLATION - LOSS OR
RETENTION OF MEMBERSHIP OF NATIONAL AND PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES BILL,   CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AMENDMENT BILL, CONSTITUTION    OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA SECOND AMENDMENT BILL LOCAL GOVERNMENT:
                 MUNICIPAL STRUCTURES AMENDMENT BILL Report adopted without debate.

     CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AMENDMENT BILL

 CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA SECOND AMENDMENT BILL

        LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL STRUCTURES AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, in this debate the House is invited to address a package of four pieces of legislation, four Bills with one common denominator. They all deal with the creation of laws providing for and governing the procedures relating to the crossing of the floor by members of legislatures. To frame it in more legalistic language, the legislation deals with changes of party membership, mergers between parties and the subdivision of parties, be it in the national, provincial or local government sphere.

The Bills in question are the following: The first one, is the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill, the second one is the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill, the third one is the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill and the last one is the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill.

It is common cause that the ball was set rolling in this case, interestingly enough, not by Bafana Bafana but by the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development towards the end of last year when it obtained permission from this House to proceed with the preparation of the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill. This Bill was duly published in the Gazette on 16 November last year for public comment.

From the side of Government, we have made it clear at the very outset that the legislation pertaining to crossing the floor must be dealt with as a package at all three tiers of Government. We have also held the view that the legislation should be governed by the same principles. Hence, when the first constitutional amendment Bill was subsequently published for comment in the Gazette on 11 March this year, it followed the pattern proposed in the membership Bill.

Whilst recognising the need for legislation of this kind, we are committed to ensuring that the basic tenets underlying our system of democracy should remain intact. Any provisions relating to changes of party membership and changes in party representation should be carefully crafted so as not to threaten to destabilise any tier of government. The main principle underlying the proposed legislation was that changes of party membership, mergers between parties and the subdivision of parties, should only be allowed for very limited periods of time.

With the wisdom of hindsight, the first constitutional amendment Bill, as published for public comment, improved upon this concept by stipulating fixed periods which would be allowed for such changes in the legislation itself. Unlike the original proposal put forward by the membership Bill which would entail that the President would, from time to time, determine such periods by proclamation in the Gazette.

The mechanism eventually established in the legislation entails that a member of a national and provincial legislature and a councillor in a municipal council will be allowed to change their party membership, or a party will be allowed to merge or subdivide or subdivide and merge only during the first 15 days following the commencement of legislation and, thereafter, only during a period of 15 days from the first to the fifteenth day of September in the second year following the date of an election, and during a period of 15 days from the first to the fifteenth day of September in the fourth year following the date of an election.

I, indeed, want to commend members of the Portfolio Committees on Justice and Constitutional Development and Provincial and Local Government, on the one hand, and their counterpart select committees in the NCOP, on the other, for the manner in which they conducted this very complex task as a result of which the House is gathered here to consider these Bills. [Applause.]

Adv J H DE LANGE: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I rise on behalf of the ANC to unconditionally support these four pieces of legislation that are before the House for debate. … [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: [Inaudible.]

Adv J H DE LANGE: It is a big surprise, and what is more surprising is that the hon member is actually going to support it as well. [Interjections.] Not such a surprise actually.

Members will recall that, for a few weeks now, we have been dealing intensively with this piece of legislation in joint meetings of four committees. It is impossible for me to deal with every aspect of these discussions and all the amendments we made. Therefore, I am actually going to concentrate today only on the four matters of principle that have changed in the legislation which has been introduced, and that is what we are introducing today.

We will all be aware that during our debates around our interim and our final Constitution we basically opted for an electoral system which broadly results in proportional representation. During those debates the issue of the introduction of the concept of crossing the floor in our electoral system also arose. In the end for various reasons, subjective and objective, we agreed that that concept of crossing the floor should not be introduced in our Constitution as it was at that time.

Since then, many debates have raged about this issue. But it is important to recall that, although we did not introduce that concept, we did make provision in the Constitution, particularly in Schedule 6, items 23 and 23(a), for the possibility for this concept to be introduced in our law. We did so in a unique way. We did so by saying that the Constitution would not have to be amended by the usual two-thirds majority by way of section 74, but indeed that such an amendment could be brought about by way of a section 76 procedure in our Constitution.

Secondly, of course we did not provide similarly for local government, but when the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act was passed such crossing was prohibited. Since then much has happened and we now stand before you with these four pieces of legislation, which in fact introduce the concept of crossing the floor in all three tiers of government. Therefore, when considering the introduction of this type of legislation, ie when introducing the concept of crossing the floor in our present electoral system, many factors must be taken into consideration.

I shall highlight a few such factors, as follows: Firstly, broadly speaking, the responses at all levels of our society, including political parties, to the introduction of this concept has taken one of three forms, namely, complete opposition, for example the IEC, the IFP, the UDM and the ACDP; secondly, complete support for the introduction of a wholly unimpeded form of crossing the floor at any time, without any thresholds or obstacles

• anyone who has heard the hon Colin Eglin speak on the matter would recognise immediately that this is his option; thirdly, various degrees of support for the introduction of a conditional form of crossing the floor, which allows only for limited windows of opportunity and a threshold requirement, for example, the legislation as it was introduced in Parliament.

During the public hearings and deliberations of the four committees in the past weeks all these trends became clear in the various parties, as well as in the media. This, of course, created some opportunity for us to negotiate a compromise amongst the different parties to try and achieve the broadest possible consensus around these four pieces of legislation.

Secondly, we require a two-thirds majority in Parliament for the passing of the two constitutional amendment Bills. In this regard it is important to note that the IFP, UDM and ACDP have indicated that they are opposed to the introduction of crossing the floor in our law, and will definitely vote against the Bills, despite our numerous attempts to persuade them otherwise.

From the beginning the DP and the New NP did not oppose the principle of crossing the floor that is contained in the Bill, but did have difficulties with certain details of the matter. I am very happy to announce that both those parties, plus the UCDP, will be supporting the legislation in its present form.

Thirdly, we needed to adopt an approach to this legislation which would minimise the opportunity of a successful constitutional challenge. Although not elegant, this is the reason all provisions introducing crossing the floor into our law are by way of constitutional amendment and not merely empowering provisions in the Constitution, with the details contained in legislation, as was suggested by some.

Constitutional amendments, obviously, cannot be challenged for constitutionality, and must merely be consistent with the broad principles contained in section 1 of the Constitution, whereas legislation can be challenged for constitutionality against any provision of the Constitution. I am of the view that in the light of the approach adopted by us, the prospect of a successful constitutional challenge, although it can never be excluded, is, at most, negligible, and not worth further consideration.

We are also suggesting that we go a step further, and that is to insert such floor-crossing provisions at the local government sphere, in a new Schedule to the Constitution, as it is more elegant and a Schedule has the same legal status as any other provision of the Constitution. This would also mean that we are dealing with crossing the floor within all three tiers of Government in exactly the same manner.

Fourthly, and probably the most important factor to take into consideration, is the possible impact the legislation may have on the stability of Government at all three levels, in particular municipalities. The first democratically elected municipalities are still in their infancy, after only being in existence for 16 months and after decades of neglect and authoritarianism.

Many factors, both objective and subjective, may impact on the stability of municipalities. The legislation could, obviously, impact negatively or positively on their stability. No scientific way exists to anticipate such impact with any measure of certainty at this stage in any specific municipality. However, what is certain is that the continued existence of the political impasse within the DA definitely is a destabilising factor, especially at local government level, and particularly as far as service delivery and good governance at that level are concerned.

Therefore, we arrived at the conclusion - against this background of so many uncertainties - that the best way one can hope to achieve this is to introduce a finely balanced mechanism allowing for crossing the floor in the future. This should be done in controlled circumstances during a few, short windows of opportunity if certain thresholds are met, hopefully with a minimum of instability, whilst in the very short term providing for a simple, uncomplicated and easy mechanism to end the DA impasse.

Now obviously these are two contradictory objectives: on the one hand they make crossing the floor easier, and on the other more difficult. So how would we achieve this objective? Obviously if we tried to achieve both, they would be mutually destructive and that would be very difficult. The way we went about it as a committee, was to accept a package of four amendments that would change certain principles in the Bill. In that way we were accommodating both objectives that were raised during the debates.

Let me turn to the first proposed amendment, which is the introduction of a new transitional arrangement governing the first crossing. It was felt that it was imperative that we distinguish those principles which the ANC has identified as governing our policy relating to the introduction of the concept of crossing the floor in our electoral system, from the mechanism which may be required to solve the political problem of the continued existence of the DA, especially for purposes of proper governance and service delivery at local government level. In other words, we were divorcing matters of principle from those matters required for political expediency during the introduction of this concept in our law.

During the debates around these Bills, especially in the media, matters of principle and political expediency have been blurred, with everything being projected as a cynical exercise in political expediency and manipulation. I am of the view that the time has arrived for the ANC to assert this distinction in the public domain more forcefully and to regain some of the moral high ground on this issue.

The most appropriate way to do this, I believe, is to draw the distinction clearly in the legislation before Parliament. This can be done, on the one hand, by reflecting the position of the ANC as contained in the Bills introduced, including the 10% threshold requirement, with a few amendments, as the principle which will govern all future crossings of the floor, whilst on the other hand dealing with the first crossing of the floor allowed within the 15 days immediately after the passing of the legislation, which is a matter of political expediency as a transitional arrangement.

The transitional arrangement dealing with the first crossing will only allow for the possibility of a simple mechanism for crossing the floor with absolute minimum requirements for compliance. For example, there will be no threshold in doing so. If we were able to agree to the introduction of such a transitional arrangement, we would possible achieve the following three objectives.

Firstly, to place the public discourse relating to crossing the floor on a more balanced and principled basis by clearly distinguishing between those long-term principles regulating the mechanism for such crossing in the future, for the more politically expedient, immediate, simple mechanism required to dissolve the DA impasse.

Secondly, to deal quickly and relatively painlessly with the instability caused at municipal level by this impasse, while retaining very strict requirements for future crossings, and hopefully in that way maintain the best chance for stability at local government level.

Thirdly, to convince as many parties as possible to vote for the Bill, to enable the definite attainment of a two-thirds majority - and we have been able to attain that. This transitional arrangement has now been introduced in the Bill.

I now want to deal with the frequency of windows of opportunity allowed for crossing the floor. The Bills presently provide for six windows of opportunity for crossing the floor, ie in February and September of each year during the three years in the middle of a five-year term of our Government. There has been no support whatsoever for the creation of so many windows of opportunity. In fact, the unanimous view was that this would most definitely cause instability and a large waste of resources at municipal level and must be avoided. Everyone is in agreement that crossing the floor should be prohibited during the first year of an election and during the last year before an election.

There were three proposals put forward. I am going to deal with only one of those proposals, and that is the one that was accepted. It says that, in fact, there should be two crossings allowed during a five-year term, ie in September of the second year and September of the fourth year of a term of a government. This would mean that one would have one year of no crossing; one year of crossing; one year of no crossing; one year of crossing; and finally one year of no crossing. That was introduced in the legislation.

The third issue that was dealt with was the threshold required for crossing the floor. The Bill provides at the moment for a 10% threshold in all but two instances: in the case of a merger - of course when one merges two parties it is actually 100%, not 10% - and, secondly, in the ease of ward councillors at local government level who have also been excluded from that 10%. After the amendments that we made, we provided for no threshold in the first crossing, but when it comes to the second crossing, we have increased the threshold requirements by providing for a 10% threshold, which is also the case for ward councillors. Fourthly, regarding the creation of a new schedule, I dealt with that earlier and I am not going to repeat any of those points.

Now, if I can find my other page it will be useful. There we are. What we have done through this package, is try to accommodate both those that want to make crossing easier as well as those who want to make it more difficult.

For those who want to make the first crossing easier, we have provided for a transitional arrangement without any threshold at all. For those who want to make it more difficult, we have provided for all future crossings of the floor by allowing for the inclusion of ward councillors to be included in the 10% and to decrease the amount of crossings from six to two. I hope that gives some explanation of those principles.

Let me turn to the last and probably the most important point and that is the thank yous. Firstly, I want to thank both our Ministers, Ministers Maduna and Mufamadi for the guidance and all the help they gave us to be able to process this legislation. I include, of course, Minister Lekota in that category as well.

Secondly, I want to thank the staff of the department, particularly Dr Petra Bouwer for his excellent grasp of things that happen at local government level. Although we sometimes had difficulty as Justice in understanding all that, he was patient enough to take us painstakingly through the issues, and we want to thank him for the excellent work he has done.

I want to thank Mr De Lange in my department or in our Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. He is another De Lange. It is not me, it is another one. I am not thanking myself. [Laughter.] The De Langes actually have a monopoly in Justice at the moment. I want to thank the other De Lange, who is not related to me, for the excellent work that he has done. If it was in my ability, I would have immediately given him a raise and also a promotion for the sterling work that he has done in this regard. [Laughter.] I hope the Minister is listening.

Then, to my co-chair, Mr Yunus Carrim, I want to thank him very much for his excellent guidance, for the patience he showed and for the tremendous way in which we worked together as two committees. [Applause.] I also want to thank the two chairs in the NCOP for the magnanimous way in which they dealt with us. And, then to the people who suffer the most - the members of both our committees - I really apologise to them for having to deal with Johnny de Lange and Yunus Carrim at one time, with one Bill. [Laughter.] It says much for their commitment to democracy and their love for this country that they sat through all that with the two chairpersons for a few weeks. I would like to say thank you very much and thank you for supporting the legislation. [Applause.]

Dr J T DELPORT: Madam Speaker, there are widely divergent views on the principle of crossing the floor whilst having a list system of proportional representation. I cannot deal with that in the time allowed. Suffice it to say, however, that whatever view one holds, it is clear that the introduction of this legislation has once again caused a sharp focus on the issue of the questionable integrity of those politicians who pursue not their political conscience but their comfort, not principle but purse.

The DP has objected to the 10% threshold. To require that 10% of a party must resign from that party is clearly and admittedly designed to protect big parties. The DA proposed an amendment, but it was voted down by the ANC and all the other parties, including, of course, the New NP.

The imminent first crossing of the floor, however, is a free for all, and was introduced by Adv De Lange as a compromise offer, and I wish to recognise and give credit to his effort. I have no doubt that the whole issue of crossing the floor will be revisited when the expected Van Zyl Slabbert commission is tabled. In the meantime, however, our opposition to the 10% threshold stands, but the DA will support the Bills.

Ek wil graag iets sê oor die DA se benadering en as die agb lede wat nou aan my regterhand sit net ‘n kansie sal gee, dat die Boere nou baklei.

Die DP skrik nie vir die oorstapwetgewing nie, inteendeel. [Tussenwerpsels.] Eerstens gee dit ons die geleentheid om die DA te vestig in wetgewers en hier in die Parlement waar ons binnekort as DA-lede sal sit, nie meer as DP nie. Dit beteken nie net dat ons ‘n ander naam sal hê nie. Ons sal ‘n ander wese hê. Ons sal ook getallegewys ‘n groter party wees, want daar is andere wat by ons gaan aansluit, en ek verwelkom hulle by voorbaat. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die DA is gestig om opposisiepolitiek te versterk, en dit gaan gebeur ten spyte van die Nuwe NP-leier se onttrekking. Nuwe NP- lede moet hulself vra: quo vadis/waar gaan ons heen? Hoe is dit moontlik dat die Nuwe NP in die DA opgegaan het om die opposisie te verenig? Hoe is dit moontlik vir enige leier met integriteit om dit te doen, om dan by die stembus te sien dat dít is wat sy eie ondersteuners wil hê, om dit alles te sien, en dan skielik uit die bloute te sê dat hy liewer wil aanskakel by die regerende party, die ANC. [Tussenwerpsels.]

My oorlede ouma het, as sy stom van verbasing was, gesê: Hygend hert, der jacht ontkomen!'' Ek sê dit ook vandag. En om dan te sê hy wil in die hoofstroom van die politiek kom, is nonsens. Hy wou in die suigstroom, in dieslipstream’’ van die ANC kom. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I would like to say something about the DA’s approach and, if the hon members now seated to my right will give me a chance, that the Boers are now quarrelling.

The DP is not afraid of floor-crossing legislation, on the contrary. [Interjections.] Firstly, it affords us the opportunity to establish the DA in legislatures and here at Parliament, where we will shortly take our place as DA members, no longer as the DP. This means that we will not only have a different name. We will have a different substance. We will also be a numerically larger party, because there are others who will be joining us, and I welcome them in advance. [Interjections.]

The DA was founded to strengthen opposition politics, and this will happen despite the withdrawal of the New NP leader. New NP members should be asking themselves quo vadis - where to now? How is it possible that the New NP linked up with the DA in order to unite the opposition? How is it possible for any leader with integrity to do that, to see at the polling booth that this is just what his own supporters want, to see all of this and then suddenly, out of the blue, to say that he would rather link up with the ruling party, the ANC? [Interjections.]

My late grandmother used to say, whenever she was utterly astonished: ``Hygend hert, der jacht ontkomen!’’ I am also saying that today. And then to say that he wants to get into mainstream politics is nonsense. He wanted to get into the slipstream of the ANC.]

He wanted his own comfort zone.

Hy wil liewer ‘n agterryer wees as om in die felheid van die politiek te staan, ook in die opposisie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek het die agb Van Schalkwyk tevore verwys na die oorgawe by Paardeberg. Ek wil hom vandag verwys na die lensiesop. Sy lensiesop is die premierskap van die Wes-Kaap.

Alle oë is gerig op ons 1300 DA raadslede, in besonder op die 592 raadslede wat deur die Nuwe NP genomineer is. Vyf honderd twee en negentig raadslede is deur die Nuwe NP in die DA belê. Die agb Van Schalkwyk, om gelyk te breek, moet daardie 592 lede terugkry. Ons sal sien. Ons sê: ``Check the scoreboard.’’ [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is die harde werklikheid van die politiek.

Namens die DA nooi ek agb lede om by ons aan te sluit. Kom word deel van ‘n groeiende opposisie, nie van ‘n alternatiewe Regering nie. Dít is mos die hoofstroom van die politiek. [Tussenwerpsels.] Kom deel met ons die visie dat elke Suid-Afrikaner, wie hy ookal is, die reg het om sy kop op te tel en sy bydrae vir ons land te maak.

Kom word deel van ons groeiende getal dienssentrums waar ons mense help wat deur die ANC vergeet word. Kom woon ons konferensie by, later in die jaar, waar ons gaan praat oor minderheidsberegtiging in Suid-Afrika, en waar ons gaan praat oor taal- en kulturele regte. Kom na ons toe om te deel in die groeiende besef dat niemand in Suid-Afrika langer van die grasie en die guns van die regerende party afhanklik is nie. Kom word deel van ‘n party wat die visie het dat die demokrasie, en dat Suid-Afrika, gedien word deur ‘n opposisieparty daar te stel wat gebalanseerd is, wat die feite laat praat, wat nie net raas en lawaai nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Watter nonsens is dit!

Ons wil ‘n bydrae maak - soos ons besig is om te doen. Kom, word deel van die party wat wil hê dat elkeen in Suid-Afrika, hier in Suid-Afrika, sy vrede sal vind. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[He would rather take a back seat than stand in the intensity of politics, in the opposition as well. [Interjections.] Once before I referred the hon Van Schalkwyk to the capitulation at Paardeberg. Today I want to refer him to the lentil soup. His lentil soup is the premiership of the Western Cape.

All eyes are on our 1 300 DA councillors, in particular on the 592 councillors that were nominated by the New NP. Five hundred and ninety-two councillors were invested in the DA by the New NP. In order to break even, the hon Van Schalkwyk must get those 592 members back. We shall see. We are saying: ``Check the scoreboard.’’ [Interjections.] This is the harsh reality of politics.

On behalf of the DA I am inviting hon members to join us. Become a part of a growing opposition, not of an alternative government. Surely that is mainstream politics. [Interjections.] Come and share in our vision that every South African, whoever he may be, has the right to hold his head up and make his contribution for our country.

Become a part of our growing number of service centres where we help people who have been forgotten by the ANC. Attend our conference, later this year, where we will be talking about minority rights in South Africa and where we will be talking about language and cultural rights. Join us and share in the growing realisation that people in South Africa are no longer dependent on the mercy and favours of the ruling party. Become part of a party that has the vision that democracy, and South Africa, are well served by establishing an opposition party that is balanced, that lets the facts speak for themselves and that does not just rage on and make a noise. [Interjections.] What nonsense!

We wish to make a contribution - as we are in the process of doing. Join us and become part of the party that wants everyone in South Africa to find their peace here, in South Africa. [Applause.]]

Mr M A MZIZI: Madam Speaker, Ministers and colleagues, the package of Bills before us today could only be be described in one simple sentence, Re tla hlahlathela halelele felleng'' [We will wander through the desert for a long time’’.] This package of Bills before us violates the constitutional rights of the voters. There is no doubt that insufficient consultation took place with the electorate and a clear mandate for these changes was not received from the electorate.

The IFP believes that the interest of the voters must always be best served. These Bills will not achieve that aim. The members of the National Assembly and the provincial legislatures were elected in 1999 in accordance with the proportional representation system prescribed by the Constitution. Only parties registered in terms of the Electoral Commission Act of 1996 could contest the elections. The procedure is that parties submit a list of their nominated candidates which are made available for inspection and objections. The lists can then be filed in respect of any of the nominations. Therefore, we are a product of the proportional representation system.

The IFP believes that it will be morally and unconstitutionally wrong for an individual or individuals to decide overnight that they want to cross the floor and violate the mandate of the voters, who voted for a party to represent their needs. The IFP does not want to stop an individual from resigning from the party which had put him on the party list - that is an individual’s right. But if he or she wants to join another party, he or she cannot retain the seat which the party won. In this manner, the party will retain the number of seats it won until the next election.

The IFP believes that the will of the people as expressed in the election should not be negated and substituted by the will of any individual or a group of individuals. The IFP is of the opinion that these Bills were rushed through Parliament to suit certain individuals, despite the fact that there is a commission that has been given the task of reviewing the electoral system and recommending or proposing changes if they are considered necessary. That task team is still engaged in its investigation and it would be better if we waited for its proposals. This is just another way of wasting taxpayers’ money.

The mad rush to bring these Bills before Parliament causes us to question the real motives behind it. We are forced to question whether or not there is a hidden agenda in all of this. Perhaps the agenda is not so hidden. This is clearly a political-expediency strategy to accommodate recent party- political developments. But we shudder to think that our young Constitution can be amended willy-nilly for reasons of expediency and party-political purposes only.

Surely, the principles enshrined in the Constitution must be difficult to amend and only after very careful consideration should amendments be effected. The national council of the IFP resolved earlier this year that the party would oppose the package of Bills on principle. It is unheard of that a Constitution of a country can be amended merely for party-political reasons, and we cannot support this. If the constitutional and electoral framework were different, we might consider our position in future.

Kusobala ukuthi sesifike emaphambanandlela - lapho abantu sebeye bacabange nje ukuthi ngoba nakhu amadlelo angapha, umuntu usengavuka nje kusasa bese ethi: Cha, sengithatha izingutshana zami sengibheka ngapha kula madlelo aluhlaza. Enze lokho akhohlwe yilabaya bantu abashiya emuva ayebathembise wathi: Sengiya laphaya endlunkulu ngoba ngiyomela nina ukuze sithuthukise nina lapha emuva. Usethi angafika lapha usebona amadlelo aluhlaza ngapha, akhohlwe yilabo bantu ababemthumile. Yimbude leyo okufuneka siyibheke ngempela.

Kuye kuthi uma sizikhuza lezi zinto kube sengathi siphakamisa ukuthi kube nodlame. Bakwethu, masiyeke ukudlala ngesimo sabantu abahleli laphaya belindele ukuthi kungaba khona okungcono esikulethayo, thina bese sijika nje sidlale ipolitiki - ibhola lethu. Umuntu avele athi: Cha, namuhlanje sengifuna ukuba ngapha. Uyavuka kusasa lowo muntu usethi hhayi, sekungcono laphaya emuva lapho evela khona, ngakho-ke usephindela emuva.

Bakwethu, masikubone futhi sikwamukele njengenselelo ukuthi sikuhloniphe ukuvota kwabantu uma besinike ivoti lokuthi size lapha. Uma sesifuna ukushintsha izinto, makube nenhlolovo ngoba le nto ingadala uhlevane uma iqhubeka iya phambili. Lokho kungagcina kudale ukuthi nalokhu ebesithi siyakwenza kungabe kusaqhubeka futhi kube izinxushunxushu ezweni, okuyinto esithanda ukuthi ingabikhona.

Ngeke-ke sikwazi ukuwuxhasa lo mThethosivivinywa. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[It is clear that we have come to the crossroads - where people think that because there are pastures are on this side, one can wake up in the morning and say: Now I am taking my clothes and going to these green pastures. The person does that and completely forgets these people whom he promised: ``I am going to represent you in Parliament so that we can improve your lives here’’. Now when he gets there, he sees the green pastures, and he completely forgets about these people who sent him here. This is nonsense that we should look at carefully.

When we try to admonish people about these things, we are seen as violent people. Good people, let us not toy with the situations of the people who are sitting there waiting in the hope that perhaps we can bring them something better. Instead of doing what they expect, we turn to playing politics - which is our ball. A person simple says: No, today I want to be on this side.'' When that person wakes up tomorrow, he says:Now it is better where I come from’’, therefore he goes back there.

Good people, let us realise and accept it as a challenge to respect the vote of the people when they vote for us to come here. If we want to change things, let us have a referendum because this thing can cause a problem if it continues. It might cause what we were trying to prevent, and create problems in the country, which is something we want to avoid.

Therefore we cannot support these Bills.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Speaker, Comrade Deputy President, comrades and friends, basically, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill deals with the consequences of the constitutional amendments providing for crossing the floor in municipalities. The current municipal electoral system is very closely linked to the model of local government. The model was significantly based on a prohibition on floor-crossing. We have sought, both through the constitutional amendments and the local government legislation, to allow floor-crossing in a way that does not erode the foundations of the new model of local government, especially the concepts of democracy underpinning it.

Rather uniquely, the legal definition of a municipality in the new model is that it comprises not just the councillors and officials, but the residents as well. The new system provides, moreover, for considerable community participation. We are, furthermore, in the early stages of consolidating a fundamentally new local government system. We need a measure of stability to ensure the effective transformation of local government. It is, after all, one of the most ambitious local government transformation projects anywhere in the world.

We need stability in local government crucially, too, to ensure that we significantly advance democracy, development and delivery. Hence, it is, as Comrade Johnny de Lange mentioned, that we have a restricted set of provisions for crossing the floor. The window periods are set for September in the second and fourth years of the five-year term of a council, precisely to provide for a certain measure of stability and predictability. September, after all, is appropriate, because it comes after the annual adoption of municipal budgets in July, and so the floor-crossing will not undermine the crucial budget-adoption process.

However, these provisions do not address the current impasse in municipalities. There are councillors trapped in political parties that they desperately want to escape from. Service delivery and other municipal functions are being hampered. Local government transformation is being impeded. Communities are being short-changed. There are very unusual and specific circumstances that underpin the current log-jam.

This specific impasse requires a specific response. Hence, we have the transitional arrangements. The first fifteen-day window period, as has been explained, will come into effect as soon as the legislation is promulgated. During this period, and only this once, a councillor can cross the floor as an individual without having to meet the 10% or any other threshold.

Of course, this might make for instability in local government, but the current impasse rules out the necessary stability anyway. And, overall, if a measure of stability is being sacrificed now, there is greater stability in the future, floor-crossing notwithstanding. Ultimately, it is a trade- off, and one that best suits local government in the circumstances. It could, depending on how things unfold, be argued that this system of floor- crossing could, in fact, contribute to stability.

Importantly, the system in general does not encourage councillors to cross the floor as individuals. This includes ward councillors, apart from the small minority of independents. After all, voters in our new democracy vote primarily for parties, not the individual ward candidates representing them. Moreover, in our current mixed electoral system in local government, the votes for ward councillors also count towards determining the number of PR councillors a party gets. So, it is difficult to separate ward and PR councillors.

The underlying value is that councillors should cross the floor primarily because of ideological or policy reasons, or because there is a significant shift of opinion within a party or the public, and not on the basis of individual whim or personal gain. Of course in many, especially smaller municipalities, a single councillor would meet the 10% threshold but no matter, together with the restricted window periods, the threshold requirement communicates the principle.

Of course, there are those who say … [Interjections.] How predictable! There are those who say that the 10% threshold benefits larger parties. But that is an outcome of democratic elections, not an inherent defect in the floor-crossing system. After all, would it be fair to penalise a party for winning the support of a significant majority of the people in free and fair elections?

There is, of course, an understandable cynicism about floor crossing. It is all sheer expediency, some say. This floor-crossing legislation is being pushed through by the ANC simply to break the back of the DA. Well then, why is the DA supporting this legislation? [Interjections.] Is it not rather exaggerating the strength of the DA to suggest that the legislation has just this aim? In any case, debates about floor crossing have persisted on and off in this House and elsewhere since 1994. The senior ANC leadership has been giving serious attention to this matter since 1999, at least. Was the DA even formed then?

It is rather simplistic to believe that the ANC just wants to gobble up every councillor available. Part of the longer-term aim is to deracialise the voting patterns. What sort of nonracial future do we have if Africans vote overwhelmingly for one major party and non-Africans almost wholly for a group of small, marginalised parties? If managed appropriately, floor crossing could, over time, contribute to less racialised voting patterns. And do we not need that?

Of course, no party serious about political power, can easily turn away a public representative wanting to cross over to it, but sometimes greater power is reflected in doing just that. It might well serve the ANC and the country better that some public representatives cross to parties that the ANC can work with, rather than join the ANC itself. In some cases, at least, there is limited value to public representatives crossing over to the ANC while leaving their constituencies behind. In short, different circumstances might dictate different options, and it is far from the case that the ANC wants to devour all.

In any case, rare in democracies today, we already have the support of two thirds of the people of our country. We are far from desperate for support. If, on the other hand, we had the support of 51% or so of the electorate, some of these suspicions might be justified. Besides, can one imagine how boring it would be if we had 100% of the public representatives in this country?

Given the nature of the new model of local government, there are various consequences to floor crossing for municipal and district councils, metropolitan subcouncils and a variety of other elements of the system. We have provided for these consequences in a way that does not alter the character and role, especially of district councils and metro subcouncils. The details of these and other provisions will be dealt with by other speakers in this debate. We have also worked out a formula to define how subcouncils might be reconstituted for crossing the floor in local councils.

For now, all we need to know is the formula is A/B x C, and where there are fractions, A - B = C. Is there anybody who does not understand that? I take it we all do. Charlotte Lobe will explain in greater detail, not least to myself, what all this means. As I conclude, I would like to thank both the Ministry and departments; in particular, Dr Petra Bouwer stands out for his extremely hardworking and imaginative resolution of the conflicts that we confronted.

Ultimately, we believe that we have found a sensible and sensitive balance between the right to cross the floor and the need for stability in local government. Exactly how successful we have been, only time will tell. In any case, this can hardly be the last word on floor crossing. Once we define a new electoral system, we may well have to come back to some of the floor-crossing issues. We are a new democracy and we need time to find an electoral system, with floor crossing, that best serves our specific national democratic objectives.

Before I leave the podium, let me finally say that we owe special thanks to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, in particular its chairperson Johnny de Lange, who spent many, many hours beyond what he needed addressing the specific amendments in the Local Government Municipal Structures Amendment Bill. Finally, I want to tell him that I still disagree with him that that comma was necessary in line 44 222 of the Bill. That really is our Bill. [Applause.]

Mnr D M BAKKER: Mev die Speaker, daar is al baie gesê en gespekuleer oor die herskikkingsproses in die Suid-Afrikaanse politiek. Almal besef dat ‘n herskikkingsproses waardeur voorvoegsels soos wit'' enswart’’ in die niet sal verdwyn noodsaaklik is vir die werklike vestiging van veelparty demokrasie in ons land. Baie min gebeurtenisse het egter al ooit so veel gedoen om die herskikkingsproses moontlik te maak soos hierdie pakket van wysigingswetsontwerpe.

Hierdie wetgewing as sulks beteken nie noodwendig ‘n herskikkingsproses nie, maar sonder hierdie wetgewing sal die herskikkingsproses nooit ‘n werklikheid kan word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.)

[Mr D M BAKKER: Madam Speaker, much has been said and speculated about the realignment process in South African politics. Everyone realises that a realignment process, by means of which prefixes such as white'' and black’’ will disappear into the void, is necessary for the actual establishment of a multi-party democracy in our country. Very few events have, however, done so much to make the realignment process possible as this package of amending Bills.

This legislation as such does not necessarily mean a realignment process, but without this legislation the realignment process would never become a reality.]

Without the legislation which allows elected representatives at all three tiers of government to defect from their parties, the realignment of politics would not take place. Politicians, knowing that their continued membership of a legislature and their income depend upon party discipline, are very seldom prepared to follow the dictates of personal conscience. It is often argued that for politicians who have been elected on a party list to follow the dictates of personal conscience would be inconsistent with democracy, especially in a proportional representation system. According to this argument, politicians should first obtain a renewed mandate in an election before crossing the floor to another party. If an antidefection clause attenuates the members’ accountability to the electorate, how can such accountability be enforced through party discipline when voter alignments change between elections?

In many democracies, worldwide, even where they have proportional representation systems, provision is made for crossing the floor. It cannot be argued that an antidefection clause is inherent in a system of proportional representation. It can also not be argued that the scrapping of the antidefection clause is incompatible with our Constitution because the amendment of the antidefection clause is specifically foreseen in our Constitution. The Constitutional Court viewed the antidefection clause as compatible with, but not indispensable to, the structure of democracy in our country.

Dit is alombekend dat hierdie wetgewing ‘n resultaat is van ‘n ooreenkoms tussen my party en die regerende party. Dit is ook net so bekend dat verskeie raadslede vasgevang is in die DP/DA, waar hulle nie wil wees nie, en dat daar ‘n noodsaaklikheid is om stabiliteit in plaaslike regerings terug te bring. [Tussenwerpsels.] Om hierdie rede is die oorgangsbepaling, sonder ‘n 10% vereiste vir oorstap, ‘n groot verbetering in die wetsontwerp teenoor die aanvanklike voorstel soos ingedien. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It is widely known that this legislation is a result of an agreement between my party and the ruling party. It is also just as well known that various councillors are trapped in the DP/DA, where they do not want to be, and that there is a necessity to bring back stability in local governments. [Interjections.] For this reason the defection clause, without a 10% requirement for crossing the floor, is a big improvement on the Bill in contrast with the initial proposal, as introduced.]

Throughout the whole process in the portfolio committees, including the public hearings, there was an open-mindedness which focused on inclusiveness and achieving consensus. For this, we must extend a sincere word of thanks to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, the hon De Lange, and the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, the hon Carrim.

I would also like to thank the ruling party, the ANC, for their co- operation and for honouring every undertaking made to my party. [Interjections.] [Applause.] The hon Leon will never understand that. It bodes well for future co-operation between our parties. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Ek was ook aangenaam verras met die konstruktiewe bydrae van die verteenwoordigers van hierdie party. [Tussenwerpsels.] Was dit nie vir die agb dr Delport se oplettendheid nie, kon ons ongewenste gevolge in hierdie wetgewing gehad het. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hierdie positiewe bydrae is egter in skrille kontras met dit wat hierdie Huis vandag weer hier gesien en ervaar het van die DP/DA. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Volgens die DP/DA is alles en almal deesdae besig met ‘n sameswering en ‘n komplot teen hulle. As dit nie regter Desai is nie, is dit die Skerpioene; as dit nie Bulelani Ngcuka is nie, is dit die polisie. Almal wil hulle vernietig. [Applous.] So ook die ANC, so al asof hulle verwag die ANC moet hul help om te groei en steun te werf. Hulle optrede getuig van ‘n paranoia wat absoluut tiperend is van die ou verregse KP politiek van hierdie land. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.]

Geen regdenkende politikus kan of wil na so ‘n party oorloop, of by so ‘n party bly nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hulle klink deesdae soos ‘n klomp klein seuntjies wie se albasters afgevat is. [Gelag.] Anders as wat die DA/DP propaganda beweer, wil geen raadslid na die DA oorloop nie. Hulle gaan net ‘n grootskaalse wegloop ervaar. Die DP het in elk geval net albastertjies, terwyl vandag se politiek ghoens vereis. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.)

[I was also pleasantly surprised by the constructive contribution of the representatives of this party. [Interjections.] Had it not been for the hon Dr Delport’s attentiveness, we could have had unwanted results in this legislation. [Interjections.] This positive contribution, however, is in glaring contrast with what this House has once again seen and experienced on the part of the DP/DA today. [Interjections.]

According to the DP/DA everything and everyone are engaged in a conspiracy against them. If it is not Judge Desai, then it is the Scorpions; if it is not Bulelani Ngcuka, then it is the police. Everyone wants to destroy them. [Applause.] This also goes for the ANC, almost as if they expect the ANC to help them grow and canvass support. Their actions testify to paranoia, which is absolutely typical of the old far-rightwing CP politics of this country. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

No right-minded politician can or wants to cross over to such a party, or remain with such a party. [Interjections.] These days they sound like a bunch of little boys whose marbles have been taken away. [Laughter.] Contrary to what the DP/DA propaganda alleges, no councillor wants to cross over to the DA. They are only going to experience a major defection. The DP only have little marbles anyway, while today’s politics require large marbles. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr J T MASEKA: Madam Speaker and hon members, the UDM understands the principle that the Constitution is the supreme law of the country which should not be lightly tampered with by amending it at the whim of a political party that wishes to advance a particular agenda, such as consolidating political positions. This would erode the democratic character of the Constitution.

The UDM does not support the amending Bill to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill regarding the loss or retention of membership of national and provincial legislatures, as well as local municipal structures because the present proportional representation electoral system obliges members of a party who are elected by virtue of the inclusion of their names on the party list to remain loyal to the party, so as to meet the expectations of voters who gave their support to the party.

The members’ mandate is the right of the political party on whose list they appear. This amendment to the Constitution will also deprive voters of their right to vote for the parties of their choice. The number of seats won by a party are determined proportionally according to the number of votes cast for that particular party, and such seats are filled according to the candidates list. Seats won by a party should not be increased and/or reduced by a small group of people that were elected, as this is undemocratic and unconstitutional.

It is important for the legislators to respect the will of the people as expressed in the elections. That will should not be negated and substituted by the will of a small group of people. The Second Amendment Bill is a good recipe for instability and the disruption of legislatures and local government functions, because of the consequences of changing their governance, committees and structures.

Dr Van Zyl Slabbert’s committee is in place and should be respected. It should look into the electoral system in South Africa. We should wait for its recommendations and proposals before the Constitution is amended.

The UDM will test the validity of these amendments to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa in the Constitutional Court, as they are eroding the character of the Constitution. These amendments negate and substitute the will and expression of the voters who supported and voted for parties of their choice during the elections, which were conducted in terms of the present proportional representation system. In conclusion, the UDM is convinced that the legitimacy of these amendments lies in a constituency-based electoral system. It is not surprising that the Official Opposition party supports this Bill. This proves that there is something wrong with this Bill. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The Bill is also meant to accommodate the ANC and the New NP in the Western Cape. [Interjections.] I am not going to walk over, because I know my position, and we are here to represent our constituencies. As the UDM, we feel that this Bill should not be passed. We should wait for Dr Van Zyl Slabbert’s recommendation. [Interjections.]

Ms M C LOBE: Madam Speaker, comrades and friends, in the recent past municipalities in our country have been engaged in a protracted, difficult and challenging transition in which great strides have been made in democratising local government.

The introduction of this legislation provides a framework within which the principle of democracy shall be given expression in the political life of municipalities. It proceeds from the premise that politics is like a living organism and therefore changes shape from time to time. It is an acknowledgement that politics is not static, neither are politicians.

Modulaqhowa ke rata se buuweng ke Ntate Mzizi ha a re re tla hlahlathela felleng halelele. [Madam Speaker, I like what was said by Mr Mzizi, when he said that we shall wander in the desert for many years.]

Indeed, we shall wander in the wilderness if we are not alive to the issues that I have just indicated.

Ke taba e tsebahalang hore ka lebaka la menyabuketso e siilweng ke mmuso wa kgethollo, bongata ba batho ba rona, bo sa ntse bo kgetha ka tsela e batlang e arohanya bakgethi ka mmala kapa semorafe. Ke ka lebaka lena, moo re fumanang batho ba mmala o itseng ba ikamahanya le mokga o itseng wa sepolotiki. Ka lebaka la ho se utlwisisi kapa ho se fumane monyetla wa ho ithuta le ho tseba maano a mekga e meng.

Qaka ke ha batho ba mofuta o tjena, ba buleha mahlo mme ba hlokomela hore ba mpile ba tshaba moru o se na nkwe, mme jwale ba batla ho menahana le mehlala ba latele maikutlo a bona, ka tsela ya ho tshela moedi, ba tshelela mekgeng e meng kapa ba kopanya mekga ya bona kapa ba e arohanya ho latela se hlahiswang ke molao ona.

Tsena tsohle di tla dumeletseha ka tlasa molao ona wa ho tshela meedi. Ntho eo ke e ratang ho feta tsohle, ke ya hore molao ona o tla bapala karolo e hlokolotsi kahong ya Aforika Borwa e kopaneng e sa ikgetholleng ka mmala, mme ka letsohong le leng, o tla thusa kaho ya demokrasi, mebuso-selehaeng, le naheng ya rona ka kakaretso. (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)

[It is a known fact that, because of the mess which was left by the government of discrimination, a lot of our people still discriminate against people according to their colour or race. That is why we find that people of a certain racial group support a certain political party. That is because they do not understand or they do not get the opportunity to learn and to know other parties’ programmes.

There is a problem when such people open their eyes and realise that they had been afraid of something that did not exist, and then they want to turn back and follow their hearts by crossing the floor to join other parties, merge or subdivide their parties, according to what this legislation allows them to do.

All these will be allowed under this legislation, which allows members to cross the floor. What I like most is the fact that this legislation will play a very important role in the building of a nonracial South Africa and, on the other hand, it will help build democracy in local governments and in our entire country in general.]

It is worth noting that, since 1994, local government has gone through different stages of transition, and since then our model of local government has changed substantially. This legislation introduces a new dimension into our local government model, which is still in its infancy. The model was significantly based on an antidefection principle, and, therefore, prohibited councillors from crossing the floor.

Through the constitutional amendments and amendments to the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, there has been a concern to provide for crossing the floor in a way that does not erode the foundation of the new model of local government, or in a way that does not undermine the concept of democracy underpinning this model. The ANC is pleased to know that the Bill has been carefully crafted to respond appropriately to this concern.

For example, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill makes provision for the reconstitution of metropolitan subcouncils after changes of party membership, mergers or subdivision of parties. In this regard, metro councils may determine their own mechanism for the appointment of councillors in the proportional representation component of the metro subcouncil. This mechanism must comply with the principle of fair representation and democracy as set out in Part 2 of Schedule 4 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act.

May I take this opportunity to indicate that it is desirable for some degree of uniformity to be maintained by respective metro councils. It would be appreciated if the Minister for Provincial and Local Government could give consideration to this matter and issue guidelines to metros on a possible model for such a mechanism. During the public hearing a concern was raised by various stakeholders that crossing the floor should be provided for in a manner that does not unduly destabilise municipalities but rather serves to complement and strengthen aspects of the new model of local government.

In addressing this concern, the frequency of windows of opportunity was reduced from six times during the three years in the middle of a five-year term of government to only two, taking place in September of the second and fourth years. This means no window period in the alternate years and thus allows for stability. As the ANC we are of the firm view that this scenario provides the best balance between the right to cross the floor and the need to avoid undue instability, noting the need to develop integrated development plans and budget processes at local government level.

Ka morao ho dipuisano tse telele tsa Molao ona, re ile ra fumana ho le bohlokwa hore motjha wa nakwana o etswe, ho thusa ho potlakisa le ho tsepamisa dintho, haholo-holo mebuso-selehaeng. Motjha ona wa nakwana o dumella hore mang kapa mang ya ratang ho tshela moedi a ka etsa jwalo ntle le ho fumana 10% tsa ditho tsa mokga wa hae.

Sena se tla thusa ho etsa hore tshelo ya meedi e be bobebe kgetlong lena la pele. Mme ha ke le hlaba malotsana hanyenyane, sena se keke sa dumellwa tshelong ya moedi bokamosong, e le tsela ya ho etsa bonnete ba hore tshelo ya moedi ha e sebediswe feela ntle le moelelo wa letho kapa tsela ya ho nyenyefatsa Molao ona.

E nngwe ya dintho tse ntle tsa Molao ona ke tshireletso ya batho bao e leng hore ba tla angwa ke Molao ona, hobane re a tseba hore Mosotho o re mowa- kgotla ha a tsekiswe. Molao ona o hlakile hore matsatsing a 15 a tshelo ya moedi, batho ba angwang ke Molao ona ba keke ba qoswa kapa hona ho tebelwa mekgeng ya bona hobane ba batla ho tshela meedi.

Qaka e kileng ya batla e hlaha ke ya hore re etse phapang pakeng tsa makhanselara a mabatowa le makhanselara a sepolotiki kapa a mekga. Re ile ra fumana hore, ha ngata, ha ho batle ho ena le phapang pakeng tsa makhanselara a meedi le a sepolotiki, mme re ile ra nka qeto ya hore kamoso ha re se re behile Molao ona, re tla etsa bonnete ba hore makhanselara a meedi le makhanselara a mekga a fumane 10% hore ba dumellwe hore ba tshele meedi.

Ka ho tjho jwalo, e re ke di behe mohatla-kgwiti, etswe kgomo ha e ke e nye boloko kaofela. Jwalo ka mokgatlo wa ANC re ikamahanya le Molao ona. [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)

[After a lot of discussions on this Bill, we found it necessary to create an intermediary to help us speed up matters, particularly in the local governments. This allows anyone who would like to cross the floor to do so, but with 10% of his party members.

This will make crossing the floor easy the first time around, but let me issue a warning that it will not be allowed when crossing the floor for a second time. This is to ensure that crossing the floor is not done unnecessarily or to belittle this legislation.

One other good thing about this legislation is the protection of those who will be affected by it, because we know that we have to forgive those who do wrong. The legislation states clearly that, within the first 15 days of crossing the floor, those affected will not be charged or expelled for wanting to cross the floor.

What nearly caused a problem was the fact that we differentiated between constituency and political councillors. We realised that there is often no difference between constituency and political councillors and we decided that in future, when we have passed this Act, we will make sure that both types of councillors need 10% of members to be allowed to cross the floor.

Having said this, let me wrap up, because I could never say it all. The ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]]

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, the ACDP has debated and anguished over this legislation and has consulted widely. We also appreciate that the proposed legislation has been tightened significantly as compared to earlier drafts. We are, however, opposing this legislation because we believe it is premature in view of the Van Zyl Slabbert commission, that it will result in greater political instability, particularly in the local government sphere, and that it violates the proportional representation system prescribed by the Constitution.

The question arises as to whether this whole issue would have arisen at all had the ANC not reached an agreement with the New NP. We are also concerned at the indecent haste with which this package of complex legislation has been considered. Only yesterday we were still grappling with the vast financial implications of the legislation for parties and representatives.

We also share the view that the draft legislation is premature in view of the proposed comprehensive overhaul of the Electoral Act by the Van Zyl Slabbert task team. This point was compellingly argued by Idasa, which submitted that it would not be sensible to consider the two elements of the political system, namely the electoral system on the one hand and the rules pertaining to crossing the floor on the other, in isolation. The Van Zyl Slabbert commission provides an ideal opportunity to consider the matter in a systematic, holistic and conceptually coherent manner.

We also have very real concerns regarding political instability at local government level, which concerns were echoed by the electoral commission, that explained to the portfolio committee that instability created by the floor crossing and parties merging and subdividing, would be much worse nationally than provincially.

The IEC added that there were a substantial number of smaller parties represented in municipal councils, as well as a relatively larger number of hung councils where no one party holds an absolute majority. This instability will undoubtedly filter down to district councils from local councils. Salga also confirms the view that floor crossing, even three times in five years, will cause instability at local government level.

It is significant that the Constitutional Court in its certification judgement, identified three important functions of the antidefection clause. Firstly, it promotes accountability of members to their electorate. The court stated that it obliges members of a party who are elected by virtue of the inclusion of their names on that party’s list to remain loyal to that party. This meets the expectation of voters who gave their support to the party.

Secondly, the court said it can act as an additional check on legislators, who are accountable not only to the electorate and the legislatures, but also to their parties. Thirdly, the court said that it is supportive of multiparty democracy in as much as it prevents parties in power from enticing members of small parties to defect from the party upon whose list they were elected, to join a governing party. If this were permitted, it could enable the governing party to obtain a special majority which it might not otherwise be able to muster and which is not a reflection of the views of the electorate.

It is a cardinal principle of the proportional representation system that elected members vacate their seats when they resign from the party or lose their party membership. This system, in the words of their electoral commission, ensures that the will of the people as expressed in an election, cannot be negated or substituted by the will of an individual or a group of individuals. The ACDP, however, accepts that where there is a mixed-tier ward system in the local government sphere, a stronger argument can be made out to permit a ward or independent councillor to cross the floor.

However, having considered the proposed amendments, the ACDP agrees with the IEC’s view that the end result will be a straddling of both the PR and the first-past-the-post principles whereby a voter votes for the party and thereafter members are allowed to act as if they have individually been elected from their constituencies.

We are not opposing this legislation because we are concerned about losing our members. On the contrary, we stand to gain as a growing party. As our member, Kent Durr, recently stated in the NCOP, we believe that the amending legislation is ``wrong minded and is at best, premature.’’

In conclusion, the ACDP can unfortunately not support these amendments.

Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, ons het vandag hier met ‘n ingrypende proses te make, ingevolge waarvan die Grondwet van Suid-Afrika gewysig word. ‘n Grondwet word nie maar sommer net gewysig nie. Daar moet baie goeie redes daarvoor bestaan. Ons is almal trots daarop om te verwys na die nuwe demokrasie in Suid-Afrika en een van die basiese hoekstene van enige demokratiese bestel is dan juis die kiesstelsel.

Suid-Afrika het tydens die onlangse onderhandelingsproses besluit op ‘n proporsionele stelsel en dit is ook so in die Grondwet opgeneem. ‘n Proporsionele stelsel is juis ‘n stelsel wat op die mees korrekte wyse die wil van die kiesers weerspieël. Stemme word uitgebring en proporsioneel word verteenwoordiging daarna aan partye toegeken. Dit gaan juis oor ‘n basiese beginsel. So het ons in 1994 en weer in 1999 verkiesing gehou. Die oomblik wanneer mens hiermee begin torring, begin die probleme. Dit blyk nou baie duidelik en daarom sit ons juis vandag met vier verskillende stukke wetgewing om al die verskillende komplikasies op die verskillende vlakke van regering aan te spreek en te hanteer.

Hier is basies twee benaderings in hierdie Raad oor hoe om hierdie sake te hanteer. Die eerste groepering is mense en partye wat sê dat dit nodig mag wees om sekere wysigings aan die kiesstelsel aan te bring en dat daar sekere prosesse moet wees waarvolgens dit moet gebeur. Maar daar is ook mense en partye wat op ‘n uiters opportunistiese wyse hierdie maatreëls vandag steun vanweë totale politieke opportunisme.

Die Grondwet het bepaal dat die stelsel binne ‘n redelike tydperk na die inwerkingtreding van die 1996 Grondwet gewysig kan word: ``binne ‘n redelike tydperk’’. Niks, maar niks kon die ANC beweeg om hierdie bepalings te wysig nie, tot dat die DA huwelik op die rotse geloop het. Toe skielik is die tyd vir die ANC reg. Die wetsontwerp is daarop gemik om die ANC te help om beheer oor die Wes-Kaap en Kaapstad, met die hulp van die Nuwe NP, te bekom, eerder as om met enige edele beginsel te make te hê, of om dit te bevorder. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Op Maandag 27 Mei 2002 berig Die Burger in ‘n opskrif soos volg:

Die Kaap is gou ANC en NNP s’n, sê Van Schalkwyk.

Dit natuurlik na aanleiding van die ANC-Nuwe NP akkoord wat bekend staan onder die naam: poste in ruil vir beginsels. Op Maandag 29 Oktober 2001 het Beeld reeds soos volg berig:

Mnr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, NNP leier, het gister aan Beeld gesê: Enige verdere gesprekke oor samewerking met die ANC moet die opheffing van die oorloopklousule insluit.

Hiertoe was die ANC natuurlik dadelik bereid. Die Burger van Saterdag 27 Oktober 2001 het berig dat Mnr Lekota, wat dit hanteer het, ‘n aankondiging gedoen het, minute voor ‘n belangrike vergadering van die Nuwe NP se federale raad, dat die ANC daartoe bereid sou wees om hierdie spel te speel.

Ek wil die Nuwe NP vandag baie vriendelik waarsku: Die ANC speel hierdie spel met julle omdat hulle die Wes-Kaap as ‘n ``nonliberated area’’ beskou waarvan hulle alleen beheer wil kry, so ook van Kaapstad. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die ANC het net een doel, en dit is om die Nuwe NP te vernietig. Die Nuwe NP moet my glo as ek dit vandag vir hulle sê. Hulle gaan dit ook regkry. Daar het nie een enkele kieser in die vorige verkiesing vir die Nuwe NP gestem om aan hul ‘n mandaat te gee om by die ANC in die bed te spring nie.

Op die mees ongevoelige en opportunistiese wyse word kiesers se stemme nou gesteel, sonder hulle toestemming. Die Nuwe NP leiers glo dit nie, maar ek wil vir hul sê: die kiesers het hul reeds verwerp. Ons is dankbaar daarvoor, want duisende van hulle is reeds besig om hul aan te sluit by die VF, en ook by ander politieke partye. Hulle sal dit by die stembus ervaar, en sien dat die kiesers hul verwerp het omdat hul opportunisties is. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hulle is besig om die beginsels van die basiese demokrasie te verkrag. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die VF sal daarom op geen manier hierdie wetsontwerp steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Inteendeel, die publiek sal met hulle afreken by die stembus, asook met daardie agb lede. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, we are dealing here today with a far reaching process, in terms of which the Constitution of South Africa is being amended. A Constitution is not simply amended. There should be very good reasons for doing so. We are all proud to refer to the new democracy in South Africa and one of the basic cornerstones of any democratic dispensation is in fact the electoral system.

During the recent negotiation process South Africa decided on a proportional system and this was also embodied in the Constitution. The proportional system is in fact a system which reflects the will of the electorate in the most appropriate way. Votes are cast and representation is then allocated to parties proportionately. This in fact deals with a basic principle.

We held elections in this manner in 1994 in this manner and again in 1999. The moment one starts tampering with this, problems crop up. This is very apparent now and that is why we are dealing with four different pieces of legislation today to address and deal with all the different complications at the different tiers of government.

There are basically two approaches in this House to dealing with these matters. The first grouping consists of people and parties who say that it might be necessary to effect certain amendments to the electoral system and that there should be certain processes according to which this is done. But there are also people and parties who, in an extremely opportunistic manner, are supporting these measures today for the sake of totally political opportunism.

The Constitution provides that the system may be amended within a reasonable period after the coming into operation of the 1996 Constitution: ``within a reasonable period’’. Nothing, but nothing could persuade the ANC to amend these provisions until the DA marriage was on the rocks. Then suddenly the time was ripe for the ANC. This Bill is aimed at helping the ANC to gain control over the Western Cape and Cape Town with the help of the New NP, rather than having anything to do with or promoting any noble principle. [Interjections.]

On Monday 27 May 2002 Die Burger reported in a headline as follows:

Die Kaap is gou ANC en NNP s’n, sê Van Schalkwyk.

This is of course as a result of the ANC-New NP agreement which is known under the name: posts in exchange for principles. On Monday 29 October 2001 Beeld reported the following:

Mnr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, NNP-leier het gister aan Beeld gesê: Enige verdere gesprekke oor samewerking met die ANC moet die opheffing van die oorloopklousule insluit.

The ANC was of course immediately prepared to do this. Die Burger of Saturday 27 October 2001 reported that Mr Lekota, who dealt with this matter, had announced, minutes before a very important meeting of the New NP’s federal council, that the ANC was prepared to play this game.

I want to warn the New NP in a very friendly manner today: The ANC is playing this game with you because they regard the Western Cape as a non- liberated area of which they want to gain sole control, and the same goes for Cape Town. [Interjections.] The ANC has only one aim, and that is to destroy the New NP. The New NP should believe me when I tell them this today. They are also going to succeed in doing this. Not a single voter voted for the New NP in the previous election to give them a mandate to jump into bed with the ANC.

In the most insensitive and opportunistic way the votes of voters are now being stolen without their permission. The New NP leaders do not believe this but I want to say to them: The voters have already rejected them. We are grateful for that because thousands of them are already joining the FF and other political parties too. They will experience this at the polls and see that the voters have rejected them because they are opportunistic. [Interjections.] They are violating the principles of basic democracy. [Interjections.]

The FF will therefore in no way support this Bill. [Interjections.] On the contrary, the public will deal with them at the polls, as well as with those hon members. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Speaker, hon President, hon Deputy President, the Constitution of any country is a very special document that has to be viewed with reverence and considered sacrosanct so that it is not amended out of turn. Our Constitution has become an important matter in this country.

The ink had hardly dried on the 1996 Constitution when there came the amendment to deny provincial premiers the power to call for elections in their provinces. More amendments followed that, to all intents and purposes, were meant to address the wishes of the majority party, such as the appointment of Ministers from outside Parliament and subsequently the appointment of Deputy Ministers from the ranks of opposition parties or from outside Parliament.

Government continues to have heavy and cold feet when addressing concerns regarding the role and functions of traditional leaders, yet in the interests of both the ANC and the New NP, it has been possible to work at breakneck speed to produce legislation to allow crossing the floor and to accommodate the merging and subdivision of parties, simply because it is hoped that the measure will benefit the two parties. Much has been said about the removal of the antidefection clause in order to allow elected representatives an opportunity to cross the floor to the party of their choice. It is our firm belief that this legislation will change the nature and character of our politics in South Africa. We do not see it this way. In the past we have debated the issue of allowing elected representatives to follow their consciences when participating in legislative politics.

We all know that our electoral system of proportional representation does not cater for the election of constituency representatives, thereby eroding the same democracy we all defend by not allowing the electorate to decide on the candidate of their choice. Therefore, we view these constitutional amendments as a mechanism to provide that balance, which will enable the people on the ground to exercise reasonable control over party politics, and vice versa. This will force political parties to deliver on their election promises.

How will this be achieved? It will be achieved in two ways. Firstly, any group which wishes to defect to another political party will do so in consultation with the constituency that they represent, or the geographical areas that they come from. It is no secret that many elected representatives are unable to participate fully in the drafting of policy, because their participation is limited by what a particular party thinks or deems to be the right policy to pursue. If they disagree, they are expelled.

Secondly, the new system will inject an interest in our politics from a public point of view. The elected representatives will now be entitled to join other political parties of their choice at all levels of government. The envisaged factors that we hope will kick-start this much anticipated cross-over of elected representatives will no doubt initially be attributed to intra-party democracy.

It is hoped that the new system will afford parties an opportunity to attract new members on the basis of how it is managed or its democratic character, to allow its representatives to play a meaningful role in contributing to the development of this country. However, we should caution that there will be groupings who will do as they please and capitalise on the instability of their political parties to pursue individual interests.

These amendments are not, in our view, intended to promote disobedience of elected representatives or weaken the smaller parties. We are challenged beyond our current personal circumstances … [Time expired.]

Ms N MAHLAWE: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members, I greet you today in the name of democracy.

I rise to speak on the implications of this legislation in the National Council of Provinces. Firstly, I would like to quote section 42(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. It reads:

The National Council of Provinces represents the provinces to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of Government. It does this mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the provinces.

The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill is a piece of legislation that addresses this requirement and therefore seeks to regulate the allocation of delegates to the National Council of Provinces and to provide for matters connected with this regulation. This amends section 62(3) of the Constitution.

Perhaps it would be necessary for me to outline the existing state of affairs before I speak on the provisions of this Bill. Each provincial legislature is represented by permanent and special delegates in the NCOP. The provinces determine, by means of national legislation, how many members of each party will be permanent or special delegates. This is done within 30 days after the results of provincial legislatures have been declared.

Permanent delegates are appointed, of course, in accordance with the nomination of parties. Furthermore, it should be remembered that the Constitution requires an electoral system for provincial legislatures which results in proportional representation. Therefore, section 106(3) provides that a person will lose his or her membership if he or she ceases to be a member of the party that nominated him or her. With the new amendments, a member will not lose his or her membership if he or she ceases to be a member of the party that nominated him or her, ie if he or she decides to cross the floor from the party that nominated him or her.

It should be noted that crossing the floor will not take place in the NCOP. But following the explanation that I have given, delegates will cross the floor in their respective provincial legislatures. It should also be noted that changes in party membership due to crossing the floor, merger or subdivision of parties will necessitate changes of a legislature’s delegation to the NCOP.

The number of permanent and special delegates will be determined by the national legislation and permanent delegates will also be approved by the parties that nominated them. This has to be done within 30 days after the results have been declared. Therefore, that means there can be no crossing of the floor in the NCOP.

Ndithanda, kanye ngalo eli thuba, ukuthi yona into yokuphonononga le Mithetho iYilwayo besiyiqulunqa kwiKomiti yezoBulungisa noPhuhliso loMgaqo- Siseko, ibingumsebenzi onzima kakhulu. Kambe ibingumsebenzi omnandi kakhulu, kuba ndiwabonile amaqela, ngakumbi, anjenge-DP kunye ne-NNP esebenzisana kunye nathi ekuphononongeni lo Mthetho uYilwayo.

Xa ndiza kusuka phaya esihlalweni sam kuye kwadlula amalungu ahloniphekileyo asuka apha kwi-DP. Amabini, xa edlula, aye athi `it’s over’. Ndiye ndaqonda ke okokuba le nto inika ithemba lokuba lo Mthetho uYilwayo uza kuphathwa ngendlela eyiyo ngala maqela asixhasayo. Kanti nalawo angasixhasiyo, ndiyacinga ukuba kufanelekile okokuba akhumbule ukuba ulawulo lwentando yesininzi yeyona nto lo Rhulumente ayikhuthazayo. Ndiyaziva ezi ntetho bazenzayo, kodwa zonke ezi zinto bazithethayo azithethi into yokuba abantu bayayazi le nto ilulawulo lwentando yesininzi ukuba luyintoni na.

Le Mithetho iYilwayo yonke, njengoko sele ibekiwe ngusihlalo weKomiti yezoBulungisa noPhuhliso loMgaqo-Siseko, ibonakalisa kakuhle ukuba abantu banalo ilungelo. [Kwaphela ixesha.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[I would like, at this point, to say that reviewing these Bills as the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, was a difficult task. However it was enjoyable at the same time, because I could see how the DP and the New NP, in particular, co-operated in deliberating on and reviewing these Bills.

When I was about to rise from my seat, hon members from the DP walked passed. Two of them, when going past said ``its over’’. I then realised that there was hope that these Bills would be treated in an appropriate way by the parties that support us. Even for the ones that do not support us it is necessary that they should remember that democracy is what this Government encourages. I can hear what they say, but all these things that they talk about do not show that they understand what democracy is.

All these Bills, as tabled by the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, clearly show that people have a right. [Time expired.]]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, in the limited time at my disposal in debating the four amendments to the Constitution, I want to say the following. If the amendment to the Constitution was about issues of national importance like powers of traditional leaders, ridding African culture and African Customary Law of Eurocentric domination, advocating equitable redistribution of land and making it a permanent feature of the Constitution that MPs may change their party membership without losing their seats, the PAC would have no problem with the proposed amendments.

Unfortunately, this House is today being asked to allow the trivialisation of the Constitution of this country. It, therefore, becomes imperative for the PAC to remind the House that the Constitution of a nation is sacrosanct. Its main purpose is to protect and preserve the fundamental rights of its citizens. [Laughter.]

A constitution is not a toy to play with. It is not a doormat to use for political opportunism or expediency. A constitution is not a key to open a bedroom to take political prostitutes to bed. [Interjections.] A constitution is not a condom to be used for convenience when playing games with political prostitutes. [Applause.]

What is being witnessed here today is a despicable abuse of the Constitution. It explodes the myth that this country is a champion of constitutional democracy. When leaders of Namibia, Zambia, Malawi and others tampered with their constitutions to allow a President a third term in office, while their constitutions only allowed for two terms, there was a justified uproar by all respecters of constitutions and the rule of law said that that was a violation of constitutional law. [Interjections.]

The powers and functions of traditional leaders have been a subject of dispute for a long time. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Why has this important national issue not been attended to as swiftly as the constitutional provision to take political prostitutes to bed? Sections 211 and 212 still state the powers of the traditional leaders in very vague legal language. [Interjections.]

Our country is full of Bredells. [Interjections.] Millions of homeless and landless people that are evicted from land every day do not come from the sea or from the sky. They come from the cesspools of the poverty of African townships, overcrowded, dilapidated rural areas and from places where many eat rotten leftovers from the dustbins of the rich. When will this Constitution be amended to provide for the equitable redistribution of land and other national resources to stop the misery of the people?

The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill facilitating crossing the floor is not only a game for political prostitutes but it violates the principle that retrospectivity in legislation violates the rule of law and good governance. [Laughter.] The present representatives were elected before this constitutional amendment. The law under which they were elected did not provide for crossing the floor. Retrospectivity in law-making is a characteristic of fascist regimes. It is a symptom of tyranny and dictatorship. It is a manifestation of politics established on parochial interests and not on broad national interests.

The proposed constitutional amendments are a diversionary exercise against the real needs of the poor in this country. Izwe lethu [Our land]! [Applause.]

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, because the FA is a fully-pledged member of the DA, it will retain its membership as a political party in Parliament and in the Gauteng legislature until the end of the 2004 election, when the DA will be the ANC’s strongest opponent countrywide at all levels of government … [Applause.] … ready to govern. The FA is still totally committed to the furtherance of alliance formation with political parties and groups that intend to retain and develop multiparty democracy in South Africa.

Although this Bill was initially designed to cancel the will of the people after elections and also weaken opposition to the ANC, we will use it to free those politicians and supporters who now wish to break away from their unreliable party leaders, who for the umpteenth time have gone back on their election promises and have forsaken councillors and supporters.

This Bill will enable the New NP councillors now sitting in the DA to break with that party’s leadership and follow their conscience, thereby remaining loyal to their December 2000 voters to prove to them that they are more reliable than their parliamentary and provincial leaders. [Interjections.]

The Bill will remove the shackles from New NP parliamentarians and provincial politicians so that they too can return to the DA, whom they promoted and worked for in the December 2000 local elections. In 1996 the New NP took their party out of the Government of National Unity to form, as they said, a strong opposition. This year they want them back in to strengthen the ANC Government. Every time they did so against the will of their supporters.

Months ago Peter Marais was taken out of the Western Cape’s government because of his incompetence. The New NP leadership then put him back because they said that he was a good politician. Now they intend to replace him with their leader to, as they say, restore good governance. [Laughter.]

To the New NP members sitting here and in the provincial councils, I wish to say that after we have passed this Bill, they will be able to sing like Martin Luther King: ``Free at last, free at last! [Applause.] They will be free to leave the old, the new and the dead NP. [Laughter.]

To the DA councillors countrywide - let me add the New NP to that - they will be free to follow their conscience; free to rejoin the DA, their supporters and their people. We wish to say to the DA councillors countrywide that they will be free to carry on in the DA, to follow their conscience and not power-hungry party leaders. Free to serve their communities, their voters and their supporters and free to build a multiparty democracy in South Africa under the DA banner.

To all the other democratic-orientated parties, which naturally excludes the ANC, we say that they will be free to form alliances, to help us restore multiparty democracy all over South Africa. We may also take that higher up.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: The FA will support this Bill. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, Deputy President, Ministers, when we entered into a transitional system of governance in 1994, followed by the new democratic system of governance in 1996, with constitutional simplicity, a system of representational was inculcated. There was a good reason for adopting such a system, which we need to bear in mind when considering altering it.

Prior to the 1994 transitional government, we as South Africa were subjected to a government in which power vested in the minority and state issues were coercively influenced to the greater advantage of the minority. The transitional government and the interim Constitution of 1994 did away with this by inculcating a system of proportional representation and adopting government by the people for the people. Our seats in national government, among other spheres of government, were awarded. It should therefore be maintained that seats are positions awarded by parties in terms of their representation of the people. It should be brought to the attention of the people at grass-roots level that these amendments are in no way a compromise of democracy, but rather an insurance of it.

The minimum requirement of 10% may be advantageous to the larger parties, but certainly does not cater for smaller parties that are represented by one or two members. This is where members’ commitment, dedication and full support of the party are tested. The MF can boast a firm stand in such support. It seems as though the issue is very broad. An input from the South African citizenry is crucial to ensure that this Government remains representative of its people and that individual choice does not become the power of the seat.

Taking all aspects into consideration, in the light of democracy, the MF supports the amendment made concerning all levels of government. [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, how do I approach a Bill that puts my party in a position to triple or quadruple its representation in this House. [Laughter.] The AEB supports these pieces of legislation. Yes, there is the argument that the voters have voted for a particular party, and to defect from that party is to defect from the will of the voter. But what does one do if one’s party, in pursuing white votes, contests the 1999 election on the slogan of Fight back,'' with an aggressive Tony Leon on its posters, but midway through 2000, changes the slogan toFor all the people’’ with a friendly and smiling Tony Leon on lampposts pursuing black votes? [Laughter].

On the other hand, what does one do when one’s party contests elections in 2000 in tandem with the DP, enjoying the fight back against the ANC as much as its DP partner, and then, all of a sudden, jumps into bed with the very same ANC? What does one do if one voted for balanced opposition and free- market principles in the UDM and in midstream the party jumps into bed with the radical PAC? [Laughter].

Die punt is: Politieke partye verander, soms uit beginsel, soms uit louter opportunisme. Kan die verkose lid dan gedwing word om maar net daarby in te val? Is dit reg as verkose lede met verantwoordelikheid deur die huidige situasie gedwing word om maar om den brode saam te swem in die stroom wat sy partyleiding aandui? Ons het eintlik hier ‘n ``Catch 22’‘-situasie. Die kieser, aan die een kant, het gespreek en sy stem vir ‘n bepaalde party uitgebring. Dit is sy reg dat sy verkose verteenwoordiger vir vyf jaar die betrokke beleid sal uitvoer binne die party wat hy op die stembrief verteenwoordig het.

Aan die ander kant is die politiek nie staties nie. Partye verander, soms uit beginsel en soms deur opportunisme. Daarom is dit die standpunt van die AEB dat die huidige wetgewing ‘n poging is om die beste uitweg uit hierdie situasie te kry. Dit is ‘n ordelike reëling om met die minste skade te verhoed dat onwillige verteenwoordigers, in iedere geval, ‘n klug maak van die wil van die kieser. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.)

[The point is: Political parties change, sometimes on principle, sometimes out of sheer opportunism. Can the elected member be forced simply to fall in with this? Is it right if elected members with responsibility are forced by the current situation to proceed in the direction indicated by their party leaders for their bread and butter? We actually have a Catch 22 situation here. The voter, on the one hand, has spoken and voted for a particular party. He is entitled to expect his elected representative, for five years, to implement the relevant policy within the party which he represented on the ballot paper for the next five years.

On the other hand politics is not static. Parties change, sometimes on principle and sometimes because of opportunism. That is why it is the position of the AEB that the current legislation is an attempt to find the best way out of this situation. It is an orderly arrangement to prevent unwilling representatives from making a farce of the wishes of the voter with the least amount of damage.]

The AEB was therefore in favour of this type of legislation right from the start. We had, however, two restraints. The one problem was the fact that according to the initial draft the President could determine the window period. That could definitely lead to abuse, making the leader of the majority party the gatekeeper who could open the gate when other sheep wanted to come into his kraal and arbitrarily close it when his own sheep wanted to get out.

The present Bill is a vast improvement, determining fixed periods for possible floor-crossing. The AEB also supports the reduction of the window periods to two in a term. As for the threshold, there is no rationality in the argument that collective crossing of the floor by 10% has more merit than the crossing of a single member acting through serious conviction.

It also places a big party such as the ANC in a nearly unassailable position, requiring at least 27 members to cross before any single member can leave the party. For the AEB that is, of course, not a problem. [Laughter.]

This problem is only partly addressed as it is restricted to the first window period, but should be extended. Taking everything into consideration, the AEB supports these Bills and hopes that as the playing of musical chairs happens, the present untenable situation, especially in local government, will be stabilised.

Die opposisiepolitiek verkeer vandag in chaos; alliansies word gevorm en verbreek; beleidsrigtings word verander; ons hoor van skandale en van gerugte van skandale. Die AEB is van plan om hom te posisioneer om saam met andere ‘n nuwe party te vorm wat in die hoofstroom van die politiek na minderheidsbelange kan omsien terwyl dit ten volle deel van Suid-Afrika bly. Ons nooi agb lede uit om daarby aan te sluit. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Opposition politics is in chaos today; alliances are formed and broken; policy directions are changed; we hear of scandals and rumours of scandals. The AEB plans to position itself along with others to form a new party that can look after minority interests in mainstream politics while remaining a part of South Africa. We invite hon members to join this endeavour. [Applause.]]

Mr M T MASUTHA: Chairperson, hon members, comrades and friends, allow me on this occasion to start by expressing my own grief at the sudden and untimely death of a comrade and friend whose death, indeed, has been a loss to the entire country, particularly to this institution, especially in view of the legislation that he had just completed, that determines the powers and immunities of members of Parliamemt. [Interjections.]

Before us is a package of four Bills aimed at facilitating crossing the floor, two constitutional amendments and the remaining two ordinary Bills. For the purposes of this debate I shall confine myself to two spheres, namely crossing the floor in Parliament as well as the provincial legislatures. I will, therefore, focus on two Bills, namely the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill, which deals specifically with the situation where provincial delegations to the National Council of Provinces may have to be altered, and the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill.

The purpose of the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill is to create a mechanism to enable members of the National Assembly or a provincial legislature to change their party- membership without losing their seats in those legislatures; to enable an existing party to merge with another party; or to enable a party to subdivide into more than one party or to subdivide and then one subdivision to merge with another party. The Bill seeks to create this mechanism by effecting amendments to items 23 and 23(a) of Schedule 2 to the interim Constitution. The said item 23(a) specifically authorises Parliament to amend items 23 and 23(a) by an Act of Parliament, passed in accordance with the provisions of section 76(1) of the new Constitution in order to achieve these objectives.

A question may be asked as to why the interim Constitution should be used to introduce the mechanism for the crossing of the floor at provincial and national level. The answer is that when the current Constitution repealed the interim Constitution, it saved certain provisions of the latter, including item 23 of Schedule 2 to the interim Constitution and went further to add item 23(a) to the Schedule. The Constitution - that is, the current Constitution - further provided for the possibility of this Schedule being amended by way of national legislation, hence the Bill before us.

Section 46(1)(d) of the Constitution requires an electoral system for the National Assembly that results in general in proportional representation, which principle is repeated under section 105(1)(d) of the Constitution in regard to provincial legislatures. It may be argued that, in a sense, this package of legislation will have the effect of undermining this very fundamental constitutional principle in our democracy, as it will effectively alter the proportional representation as determined by an election, as a result of shifts in party representation resulting from crossing the floor.

The ANC made the difficult choice of introducing this fundamental shift in the functioning of our democracy in order to give full expression to shifting political sentiments in our country. We are a young, evolving multiparty democracy and many political parties are still very young and striving clearly to establish their identities and support bases with the electorate, a phenomenon which often leads to political instability, which in turn often leads to disruption of good governance as shown recently in the Western Cape.

Relieving members of a legislature from the bondage of pretending to maintain loyalty to a party in which they have lost faith, will never make a positive contribution to the advancement of democracy in a society which believes in freedom of association and, by implication, of course, disassociation.

Turning to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill, allow me to start by making the following observations. The NCOP is composed of a single delegation comprising four special delegates and six permanent delegates from each provincial legislature. Parties represented in a provincial legislature are entitled to delegates in the provincial delegation in accordance with a formula set out in Schedule 3 to the Constitution. Each provincial legislature must, within 30 days after the result of an election is declared, determine the number of delegates of each party and appoint the permanent delegates of the parties. This is in terms of sections 60 and 61 of the Constitution.

The provisions of the membership Bill may lead to significant changes of party representation in a provincial legislature, which may in turn necessitate the determination of the composition of that legislature’s delegation in the NCOP. As such, changes will not result from an election. There is no mechanism in terms of which a redetermination can take place, hence the need for this Constitutional amendment.

The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill therefore aims to amend the Constitution, in order to provide that after the composition of a provincial legislature has been changed in accordance with national legislation, which is what the Bill before us, the membership Bill, is deals with - that legislature must determine the number of delegates of each party to the NCOP.

This is done by amending section 61 of the Constitution so as to provide that a provincial legislature must within 30 days after the result of an election is declared or the composition of that legislature is changed in accordance with this Bill, on account of changes to party membership, mergers between parties or the subdivision of parties within that legislature, determine in accordance with national legislation how many of each party’s delegates are to be permanent delegates and how many are to be special delegates. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Chairperson, Azapo supports the view that it is every individual’s right in terms of our country’s Constitution to associate and/or dissociate from a political party or organisation. We have no problem with that.

As a matter of principle, Azapo will not have a problem with individuals who wish to cross to other parties or even to form new ones. Crossing the floor for Azapo is not the issue. The number of those crossing to Azapo, also, is not the issue. The problem arises when such a crossing is accompanied by the retention of rights and privileges that did not accrue as a result of the individual’s own achievement or as a result of constitutional entitlement.

In other words, if our voting system were such that an individual is directly voted into Parliament, a provincial legislature or a municipality, then such an individual could have a legitimate right to cross the floor without losing any of the attached privileges. Azapo’s understanding of the principle of proportional representation is that the electorate votes for parties, not for individuals. This being the case, it means that an individual cannot, by virtue of being on a party list and by virtue of being deployed to any of the institutions that govern, claim to have been voted into these positions in her or his own right.

The result is that an individual’s legitimacy in relation to a parliamentary, provincial or municipal seat is derived from his or her membership of, or association with a specific party that took part in the elections. Under these circumstances, an individual should not be allowed to retain his or her seat if such an individual has crossed to another party. The party that deployed such a member to a parliamentary, provincial or municipal seat should be allowed to fill the seat that has been vacated by such a member.

Azapo is aware that these specific amendments have been motivated by circumstances that came about as a result of the disintegration of the marriage between the New NP and the DP, the results of which militate against service delivery to our people, particularly in the Western Cape. Whilst we understand the motivation, we nonetheless do not support the Bills in their present form, especially when they are considered in terms of proportional representation.

Azapo will await the report of the Van Zyl Slabbert commission in order to settle the contradictions.

Mr J M NGUBENI: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon members, the crossing the floor legislation and amendments to the Constitution will create more space for transformation and democracy, and will allow further transformation of South African society, as envisaged in the Freedom Charter.

It is the responsibility of the ANC to provide leadership in uniting and building a nonracial and nonsexist South Africa. This will ensure that there is greater co-operation and respect amongst all political parties and leaders, as opposed to pursuing narrow-minded ambitions which encourage divisive strategies and do not contribute to building this country.

It is patently obvious that these tools present us with an opportunity to promote and deepen democracy, so as to continue building a better life for all and a more caring society. The amendment to the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 2002 enables a member of a council to become a member of another party whilst retaining membership of the council; enables an existing party to merge with another party of to subdivide into more than one party; and enables subdivisions to merge with another party.

It is important to know that the present local government system is founded on principles that do not allow crossing the floor. However, this model of developmental local government faces many challenges of transformation, underdevelopment and service delivery. Our noble system of local government is also based on a proportional electoral system. Though it allows ward councillors, the whole model is proportional. These amendments take care of this delicate situation, and ensure that the objects of local government are realised.

It is true that part of the legislation and amendments address issues of political expediency. This is mainly accommodated during the once-off transitional period. This is not necessarily a solely political expediency or possibly a processing vacuum, but is also meant to solve the impasse and problems experienced, for example in the Western Cape, that directly affect governance and delivery. One cannot allow a situation where councillors in one organisation do not talk to or trust one another. It is politically correct and responsible to intervene and introduce sustainable corrective measures.

However, on matters of principle, the legislation and amendments safeguard and protect the democratic values enshrined in our Constitution. The 10% threshold required to cross the floor will stop individuals from doing so either as political corruption or individual will. This will ensure that people do not enter politics for the wrong reasons, in pursuit of personal power and self interest, devoid of any real commitment to serve the public.

It is hypocritical to suggest that this favours the bigger parties. Anyway, democracy is about numbers. This is an electorate mandate. It cannot be changed here. More fundamental, this discourages individuals from being bribed to switch parties as they wish. People will cross the floor either for ideological reasons or because of a major policy shift in their party. However, one has to sympathise with those who are today arguing on matters of principle and accountability, whilst disguising their fear of losing members.

The window period allowed in September of the second and the fourth year allows this process to happen after municipalities have completed their budgetary processes. That will ensure stability and enable local government to deliver on its primary mandate.

Of course there are challenges that need to be addressed as we implement this legislation, namely, ensuring continuity with ward communities; representation on subcouncils in metros; the administration process by the IEC; and consistency with the Electoral Act. People are arguing that we should have waited for the electoral commission to complete its work, but I wonder how on earth one can leave this untenable situation, especially in the Western Cape, unattended to. That would be politically irresponsible and criminal. In my view, this is not an event, but a process that will allow the IEC to conform to these amendments.

These challenges, however, do not outweigh the political and democratic gains that we are going to achieve. In district councils only 40% of directly elected councillors will cross the floor at that level. The remaining 60% will follow the process in their respective councils. This will enable district councils to benefit as more capable and competitive councillors are deployed or redeployed. All meetings of councils will take place within the 30 days allowed by the Constitution. District councils are of great significance and importance in redressing the legacy of the past and redistribution. The precautions taken in the amendments and the legislation will ensure stability and continuity within district councils.

In conclusion, in the interest of democracy, political principles and convictions are now at centre stage. Narrow-minded, naked political ambition will be exposed through this legislation. [Applause.]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members, in recent months speculation about who would cross the floor and who would go where, has occupied the minds of all political parties. Today I want to call a spade a spade! [Interjections.] This is a grubby package of legislation designed to accommodate the New NP leadership who pulled out of the DA to join forces with the ANC.

A DA councillor wearing a T-shirt with the words BAIK'' written across the front, bumped into a colleague who enquired whatBAIK’’ meant Boy, Am I Confused'', came the reply. [Interjections.]But one does not spell confused with a K; it should be a C,’’ said the colleague. ``Well, that just shows how confused I am.’’ [Interjections.]

There are many people who are confused and bewildered by the New NP’s incessant chopping and swopping, jumping and dumping. In 1994 they fought their campaign with the slogan Only the New NP can keep the ANC out''. They then promptly joined the ANC Government of National Unity and, two years later, they backtracked on that. In 1999 they fought their campaign with the sloganBring back the death penalty’’. In 2000 they joined the DP to form the DA and campaigned again under the slogan ``Keep the ANC out’’. [Interjections.] They then ditched the DA to join forces again with the ANC, campaigning for co-operative governance. How confused and directionless can one be! [Interjections.]

As politicians we should be addressing the real problems facing our country, ie poverty, joblessness, crime and so on. [Interjections.] But, instead, we are playing these cheap and childish games, because the New NP has no clear direction, and the ANC are obsessed with power and control. Is this political gamesmanship what people fought for, gave their lives for and spent years in prison for? [Interjections.]

Four committees have been sitting to process this package of legislation when a commission is already at work on a new electoral system which could undo everything we have worked on and are voting for today. Carol Paton, in a report in the Sunday Times dated 9 June 2002, says:

The potential for havoc that exists at local government level, where many councils sit in a delicate balance, poses a real threat to service delivery.

And already, the ANC, according to the same report in the Sunday Times, has given notice that it intends to make a clean sweep of top jobs in Cape Town’s bureaucracy when it takes control within the next two weeks.[Interjections.]

When councillors have crossed the floor, those municipal councils, subcouncils and district councils will all have to be reconstituted. [Interjections.] All our integrated development plans, and this includes the drawing up of budgets, which have been put in place after lengthy participation, could all change after the crossing of the floor. The mind boggles at the cost implications. [Interjections.]

I must draw the attention of the House to another consequence of what we are doing here today. We are opening up the system to corruption. In effect, democracy is up for sale. I believe parties are buying members to gain control of municipalities. [Interjections.] Local government has experienced two major restructuring processes at great expense to the ratepayer, but once more, this Government is prepared to pitchfork local government into another round of shambles, confusion and wasteful expense to accommodate the leadership of a party burdened with guilt, dizzy with its own zigzag changes of direction, fearful of its prospects for the future, embarrassed by its own foolish mistakes, and totally unashamed of its betrayal of the voters who put them there. [Interjections.]

The people who voted this Government into power are the very people who will be on the receiving end of poor service delivery, but it will be those same people who will go to the polls in 2004, and they will judge how the ANC-led Government has delivered to them. [Interjections.]

There has been talk of the councillors the New NP will gain at local government level. May I remind this House that in 1995-96, the New NP had just over 1 700 councillors? In 2000, they brought just under 600 councillors into the DA. They will need over 600 councillors to join them before they can speak of gain. Any less will show yet a further decrease in the support for the New NP. The DA can only gain, even if we only retain 100 of those councillors. [Interjections.] In any case, what about contesting by-elections to determine what kind of support they have? [Interjections.]

We extend an invitation to members of other parties who share a commitment to creating a better South Africa for all our people to join a winning team, the DA. [Interjections.] Despite our revulsion at the circumstances which have given rise to this legislation, and our apprehension about the abuse it is likely to generate, the DA supports these Bills. [Interjections.]

To the hon Carrim, who feels there is a mystery involved here, I just want to say that we support this legislation for very different reasons. Ours is a principled stand. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr P UYS: Mr Chairperson, three distinguished international approaches to the question of crossing the floor can be identified: Firstly, there is absolute freedom; secondly, there is the total prohibition on crossing the floor; and thirdly, there is the qualified freedom to cross the floor.

It is the third approach that is reflected in the package of legislation that this Parliament must consider. The four parliamentary committees responsible held joint hearings, and received valuable input from local government specialists. Both Salga and the Western Cape local government organisation, Wecloga, in principle supported the introduction of amendments to the Constitution and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act to allow local government councillors to cross the floor without losing their seats on a municipal council. They see this as a step towards deepening democracy, mentioning that this is consistent with international democratic practices.

Uit die pakket van die vier stukke wetgewing in die Grondwet, is daar twee van toepassing op plaaslike regering. Dit is die Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Grondwet, en die Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Strukture Wysigingswetsontwerp. Hierdie wetgewing maak voorsiening dat ‘n raadslid nie sy of haar setel in die munisipale raad verloor indien sy of hy van party verander nie.

Ons is bly oor die tweefase proses wat geïmplimenteer is, naamlik die oorgangsfase vir die eerste 15 dae, waar ‘n raadslid van party kan verander sonder dat daar enige beperking op sodanige raadslid geplaas word. Na die aanvanklike eerste 15 dae sal daar weer ‘n geleentheid vir raadslede in 2004 wees om die vloer te kruis, maar dan is daar ‘n beperking van 10%, en dit is dan net van 1-15 September 2004 van toepassing.

Die belangrike vraag van wanneer dit moet plaasvind, in September of Februarie, se antwoord is duidelik uitgespel deur verteenwoordigers van plaaslike regering. Hierdie verteenwoordigers het besluit teen Februarie as gevolg van die kritieke proses van die GOP wat gefinaliseer word, en die finalisering van die begroting vind ook dan plaas.

Maar wat ek vandag hier gehoor het van die agb Borman, en daar was vier staande komitees se portefeulje komitees, is vir my vreemd. Dit was ‘n totaal ander persoon as wat ons in die portefeulje komitees gesien het. Daar was sy ‘n persoon wat nie eintlik gepraat en deelgeneem het nie, ‘n persoon wat redelik in eenstemming was met die proses wat daar gevolg is. Maar vandag skep sy die idee dat daar, eerstens, probleme was met die proses, en dan natuurlik is sy ontevrede die uitkoms daarvan. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.)

[Out of the package of the four pieces of legislation in the Constitution, there are two which are relevant to local government, namely the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill. This legislation provides that a councillor does not lose his or her seat in the municipal council when he or she crosses the floor. We are satisfied with the two-phase process that has been implemented, namely the transition phase for the first 15 days, in which a councillor may change party without any restriction being placed on such a councillor. After the initial first 15 days there will be another opportunity for councillors to cross the floor in 2004, but then there is a restriction of 10%, and this is only applicable from 1-15 September 2004.

The answer to the important question as to when this should happen, in September or February, has been clearly spelt out by representatives of local government. These representatives decided against February because of the critical process of the GOP being finalised, and the finalising of the budget also takes place then.

But what I have heard here today from the hon the Borman, and there were four standing committees’ portfolio committees, I find strange. She was a completely different person to the one we saw in the portfolio committees. There she was a person who did not really talk and participate much, a person reasonably in agreement with the process being followed there. But today she is creating the idea that, firstly, there were problems with the process, and then naturally that she is dissatisfied with its outcome.]

But she also said that we should call a spade a spade.

En daarna moet ons kyk. [And we must examine that.]

She also referred to confusion, and referred to a DA councillor with the T- shirt as being confused.

En dan moet ons vir mekaar vra: wie verwar die raadslede? Verlede week nog het die DA/DP gesê: raadslede, die oorloop sal nooit kom nie. Vandag staan ons in hierdie Parlement, en ons is op die punt om dit goed te keur. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit was een van die agb lid se propagandaslenters wat sy duidelik gestel het. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil graag sê dat hierdie wetgewing duidelik voorsiening maak vir die stabilisering van alle situasies in plaaslike regering. Daar word verwys na destabilisering, maar ek dink dit is juis die geleentheid waar plaaslike regering hersaamgestel kan word en gebou kan word met ‘n gesamentlike visie om vorentoe te beweeg. Ons hoop dit sal met groot sukses plaasvind.

Ek wil my dank oordra aan die twee voorsitters van ons portefeulje komitees: mnr Johnny de Lange, en ook aan mnr Yunus Carrim en hulle personeel.

Die Nuwe NP steun die wetgewing graag. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.)

[And then we have to ask one another: Who is confusing the councillors? Just last week the DA/DP said: Councillors, the floor-crossing will never come. Today we are on the verge of approving it in this Parliament. [Interjections.] That was one of the hon member’s propaganda tricks, which she made clear. [Interjections.] I would like to say that this legislation clearly makes provision for the stabilising of every situation in local government.

Reference is made to destabilising, but I think this is exactly the opportunity where local government can be reconstituted and built with a shared vision for moving forward. We hope that this will take place with great success.

I would like to convey my gratitude to the two chairpersons of our portfolio committees: Mr Johnny de Lange, as well as Mr Yunus Carrim and their staff.

The New NP gladly supports the legislation. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson, you will be very pleased to know that I am the last speaker in this debate. There are a few misconceptions that I want to set right. In the course of this debate, there has been a suggestion that the ANC has rushed this Bill through Parliament in an unethical manner. Given that this Bill was tabled in November 2001 already, and the fact that our public hearings were well attended, I leave members to ponder the nature of this apparent rushing through Parliament. The second allegation that has been made is that by passing this piece of legislation, Parliament has pre-empted or undermined the Van Zyl Slabbert commission. This commission has been appointed to investigate possible changes to a future electoral system. Like all commissions, it makes recommendations which may or may not be accepted. It is unclear whether it will even deal with the issue of crossing the floor. In this regard it seems to me less than sensible to await the outcome of the commission that may or may not offer solutions to a crisis that currently faces us.

If members do not know that there is a crisis, then I am telling them that there is. One need only consult the weekend press to understand that some DA municipalities are being hamstrung by the political impasse that exists in this province. In the profound words of Dr Delport, it is a mess. Far from wasting the taxpayer’s money, as the hon Mzizi has suggested, this legislation will serve to restore service delivery in those areas.

It should be pointed out, however, that an intervention of this nature is not without consequences. In our report, we pointed out that there are administrative implications for the National Assembly, NCOP and provincial legislatures as well as the IEC. To this end, the committee proposes the forms that I have here in my hand. Any member of this Assembly, who wishes to cross the floor, will have to fill these out. I will, of course, hand copies to some of the members on my left and those copies will be accompanied by one word of advice, of course. [Interjections.] That member should not rush. He should be patient because the window period begins after the law has been promulgated, not before. But, members must remember that they should first find a party that is willing to welcome them. [Interjections.] This, no doubt, will be the undoing of many DA members. The second point that we made in our report revolves around the funding of political parties. In this regard, we have asked for a comprehensive investigation by the department within two months.

Lastly, regarding the issue of the threshold, the DP had suggested a threshold of 1% of the total number of seats in a relevant legislature or municipality. Admittedly, this proposal was tabled quite late in the process. But, regarding Dr Delport, even if it had been tabled timeously, I predict that it would not have enjoyed support. A balance between allowing a relatively easy crossing of the floor and one that basically looks at a better indicator of a major political shift was needed. My personal view, regarding Dr Delport, is that he should have proposed a 10% threshold of the total number of seats of a legislature or municipality in order to succeed. However, until he crosses the floor to the ANC, I reserve any further political advice in this regard. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon Deputy President and hon members, in 1998 Parliament brought into life the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. The Act was meant to form part of a battery of legislation that would enable us to build a local government system around the trajectory of good governance for sustainable development. Indeed, the system is anchored on firm foundations and based on legislation that regulates budgets, integrated development plans, rates and tariff setting, as well as service delivery contracts.

The Local Government: Municipal Structures Act was crafted on the understanding that the elected councillors would serve for five years, unless there was a dissolution caused by other factors, including actions of the MECs responsible for local government. All these provisions were intended to insulate the local government system from such factors as may induce instability in the system.

We are now 18 months into the new dispensation. The process of building new municipalities continues apace. By and large, we are satisfied that the process is unfolding in ways originally intended. However, there are at least 22 municipalities in the country which have hung councils. The situation results in decision-making slowing down service delivery and it also restricts the ability of the relevant councils to direct local economic development.

In the circumstances we deemed it prudent to propose amendments both to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 1998. The intention of the proposed amendments is to enable those who are moved by a will to change to give effect to such will.

In drafting the proposed amendments, care was taken to ensure that the foundations of what is essentially a democratic system of local government are not eroded. This explains why the version to be ushered in by the proposed amendments provides for a threshold and window periods for crossing.

Councillors will only cross the floor twice in a five year term. The crossing of the floor will not adversely affect local government’s sources of stability. These are factors such as budgets, IDPs, rates and tariff setting, as well as service delivery contracts. All these will remain in force. As a matter of fact, the notion of crossing the floor is predicated on the principles enshrined in Chapter 1 of the Constitution. The chapter provides, amongst other things, for the right to vote and regular elections. In the local government context the electoral system, municipal structures and systems will remain the same. Communities will continue to have the right to participate in municipal affairs and to hold public representatives accountable.

The legislation is also crafted sufficiently carefully to ensure minimal disruption of service delivery, if at all. In addition, councillors will continue to implement IDPs in line with agreed service delivery targets. On behalf of the Ministry for Provincial and Local Government I wish to assure the House and the public that we shall roll out a communications plan around this matter.

As for councillors, there are some who find themselves in situations which compel them to oppose that which they support and to support that which they are opposed to. This Bill seeks to release them from those ambiguities and ironies of political life. The political landscape of our country continues to prove dynamic in its development. We need a system which allows public representatives to cope with a world and a country in which all that is solid melts into air.

Lastly, I wish to commend members of the portfolio committees and their respective chairpersons, the hon Johnny de Lange and the hon Yunus Carrim, for putting their collective energy at the service of the nation by so meticulously processing these four complex pieces of legislation. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B16B-2002] be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES: - 280: Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W; Bruce, N S; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Dyani, M M Z; Ellis, M J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Heine, R J; Herandien, C B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lee, T D; Lekota, M G P; Leon, A J; Le Roux, J W; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuza, D D; Madlala- Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke, D K; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; McIntosh, G B D; Mfundisi, I S; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mhguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Redcliffe, C R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seeco, M A; Selfe, J; September, C C; Seremane, W J; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sono, B N; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, P S; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Waters, M; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.

NOES: - 44: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Baloyi, O S B; Bekker, H J; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Cassim, M F; Dhlamini, B W; Douglas, B M; Dudley, C; Ferreira, E T; Frolick, C T; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Hlengwa, M W; Koornhof, G W; Lucas, E J; Madasa, Z L; Mars, I; Maseka, J T; Mbadi, L M; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Middleton, N S; Mndende, O N; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzizi, M A; Ndlovu, V B; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Ngubane, H; Nkabinde, N C; Pheko, S E M; Ramodike, M N; Roopnarain, U; Sibiya, M S M; Skosana, M B; Slabbert, J H; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Vos, S C; Zulu, N E.

Question agreed to in terms of section 74(3)(a) of the Constitution.

Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 16B-2002] accordingly read a second time.

Question put: That the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B17B-2002] be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES: - 280: Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W; Bruce, N S; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Dyani, M M Z; Ellis, M J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Heine, R J; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lee, T D; Lekota, M G P; Leon, A J; Le Roux, J W; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuza, D D; Madlala- Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke, D K; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; McIntosh, G B D; Mfundisi, I S; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Redcliffe, C R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seeco, M A; Selfe, J; September, C C; Seremane, W J; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sono, B N; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, P S; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Waters, M; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G. NOES: - 44: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Baloyi, O S B; Bekker, H J; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Cassim, M F; Dhlamini, B W; Douglas, B M; Dudley, C; Ferreira, E T; Frolick, C T; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Hlengwa, M W; Koornhof, G W; Lucas, E J; Madasa, Z L; Mars, I; Maseka, J T; Mbadi, L M; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Middleton, N S; Mndende, O N; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzizi, M A; Ndlovu, V B; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Ngubane, H; Nkabinde, N C; Pheko, S E M; Ramodike, M N; Roopnarain, U; Sibiya, M S M; Skosana, M B; Slabbert, J H; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Vos, S C; Zulu, N E.

Question agreed to in terms of section 74(3)(a) of the Constitution.

Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B17B- 2002] accordingly read a second time.

Question put: That the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B22B-2002] be read a second time. Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES: - 280: Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W; Bruce, N S; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Dyani, M M Z; Ellis, M J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Heine, R J; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lee, T D; Lekota, M G P; Leon, A J; Le Roux, J W; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuza, D D; Madlala- Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabine, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke, D K; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa- Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; McIntosh, G B D; Mfundisi, I S; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Redcliffe, C R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seeco, M A; Selfe, J; September, C C; Seremane, W J; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sono, B N; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, P S; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Waters, M; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.

NOES: - 44: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Baloyi, O S B; Bekker, H J; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Cassim, M F; Dhlamini, B W; Douglas, B M; Dudley, C; Ferreira, E T; Frolick, C T; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Hlengwa, M W; Koornhof, G W; Lucas, E J; Madasa, Z L; Mars, I; Maseka, J T; Mbadi, L M; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Middleton, N S; Mndende, O N; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzizi, M A; Ndlovu, V B; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Ngubane, H; Nkabinde, N C; Pheko, S E M; Ramodike, M N; Roopnarain, U; Sibiya, M S M; Skosana, M B; Slabbert, J H; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Vos, S C; Zulu, N E.

Question agreed to.

Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B22B-2002] accordingly read a second time.

                   PRECEDENCE TO ORDER OF THE DAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That, after motions this afternoon, precedence be given to Order No 7 on the Order Paper.

Agreed to.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! In order to avoid confusion, members should note that the decision on the Second Reading of the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill will take place just after 14:15 today.

   CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND   CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT ON REINSTATEMENT OF ENROLMENT OF CERTAIN LEGAL
PRACTITIONERS BILL, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT BILL AND INSOLVENCY
                           AMENDMENT BILL

Reports adopted without debate.

REINSTATEMENT OF ENROLMENT OF CERTAIN DECEASED LEGAL PRACTITIONERS BILL

IMPLEMENTATION OF THE ROME STATUTE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT BILL

                      INSOLVENCY AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the House is invited to deliberate on these three Bills. The first one, namely the Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill, is long overdue. Enacting a law of this nature will indeed allow this country to do the most honourable thing, namely to reinstate those South African lawyers who were punished as such by apartheid for opposing it. [Applause.]

Reinstatement will follow a very simple process, namely an application before the High Court for that purpose. In case anybody wonders who these people are, I will quickly read their names. The first is Bram Fischer. [Applause.] The second is Lewis Baker. [Applause.] The third is Shun Chetty. [Applause.] The fourth is Joe Slovo. [Applause.] The fifth is Dumalisile Pearce Nokwe. [Applause.] Can hon members guess who the last one is? It is Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. [Applause.]

It is useful to remember that when Judge Ramsbottom was dealing with the striking off the roll of attorneys Nelson or Rolihlahla Mandela, the honourable Judge stated that nothing that Nelson Mandela had done reflected upon his character or showed him to be unworthy to remain in the ranks of an honourable profession. We are reinstating all of them once this House has enacted this.

The next one, namely the Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Bill is a reaffirmation of South Africa’s commitment to participating in the world’s effort at eradicating and punishing the worst forms of cruel human conduct imaginable, namely the crime of genocide, crimes against humanity which, by the way, include the crime of apartheid, and war crimes. Enacting this Bill will enable us to prosecute persons who have committed such acts. And if, indeed, we chose not to prosecute them in our country, we will be required to surrender them to the International Criminal Court.

The last one deals with a peculiarity of our situation, the fact that employees whose services are terminated as a result of the insolvency of an employer are currently not entitled to the statutory severance benefits provided for in the current Act. Enacting this Bill will enable us to resolve that. May I also say that it is our earnest attempt at striking a balance between the interests of the creditors of an insolvent debtor and the workers of such a debtor. [Applause.]

Adv J H DE LANGE: Mr Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I rise once again with unconditional support for these three Bills on behalf of the ANC.

When the House passes seven Bills in one day, it is difficult for one to write speeches, and so one forgets one’s notes and other things. Therefore, members should please excuse me, because I am just going to make a few loose remarks on these Bills and am not going to deal with them in any coherent way.

I think it is very important, although these Bills seem to be technical - and they are, indeed, technical - not to lose sight of their political and other importance. For example, the Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Bill is a vitally important piece of legislation. Unfortunately, our media has not picked up very much on this issue. But if one goes into the history of this matter, one would find that for decades now the international community has discussed the creation of an international court which would have jurisdiction to sit on those crimes which are acknowledged internationally - crimes like genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. For example, if we had this international criminal court previously, then the tribunals like those in Rwanda and Bosnia would not have been necessary as this International Criminal Court would have been able to deal with the matter.

But it also seems to me, when I discuss this matter with people, that there is a lot of confusion. Let me clarify some of them. For the last few years, most of the countries in the world, except a country like the United States and one or two others, have sat down and hammered out a statute called the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court in which there has been agreement to create such an international criminal court. This International Criminal Court is coming into existence on 1 July 2002 - in fact, in a few days’ time. This would be when 60 countries have ratified the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Again, there is some confusion about what this entails. The important issue is that many people have discussed the International Criminal Court as if it is going to take over the functions of some of our courts. However, it must be very clearly stated that the principle of complementarity is very clearly embedded in this piece of legislation and in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. In other words, this means that there will be an international criminal court that will have jurisdiction to hear matters like genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. However, it will only have jurisdiction once the courts and the prosecuting authority in the country where those crimes were committed refuse or are unwilling to prosecute in that matter. So, it is a complementary system. We, through this piece of legislation, have for the first time in the history of this country now introduced and created the three crimes which I have just mentioned. The crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes are now made crimes in terms of our law. It is then the duty of our prosecuting authority to investigate and prosecute such crimes if they are committed after the implementation date, which will be 1 July 2002, and if necessary adjudicate the matter in our courts.

It is only in the instance where our prosecuting authority is unwilling or unable to deal with the matter that the matter would be within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. This statute has a host of provisions in terms of which we have to assist that court to prosecute such persons.

Another very important feature of this Bill is that we have introduced - this is one of the few times we have done that in the history of this country - extraterritorial jurisdiction. Extraterritorial jurisdiction simply means this: Usually, our courts and prosecuting authority only have jurisdiction in matters or crimes which have been committed within the borders of our country. In this instance, clause 4 of the Bill deals with jurisdiction of South African courts in those cases of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes, which are stipulated in the legislation. Clause 4(3), more specifically, sets out the circumstances in which South African courts will have jurisdiction to hear cases against persons who are alleged to have committed one of the crimes in question, if the crimes are alleged to have been committed outside the territory of the Republic.

There are four instances in which this will happen. If the perpetrator is a South African citizen or is ordinarily a resident in the country, those are the first two instances. So, it does not matter where the crime is committed, if one is a citizen or resident of this country, we will have jurisdiction in this country to prosecute them.

Thirdly, if the crime is perpetrated against a South African citizen or a resident of this country, this court will also have jurisdiction, no matter where the crime has been committed. Fourthly and more importantly, if the perpetrator is present in the Republic after the commission of the crime, our courts in the instance of these three crimes will from now on have jurisdiction. If there is some person somewhere who thinks that he or she can commit genocide or war crimes and hide in this country, this legislation will not allow that. There is a duty upon our prosecuting authority to prosecute such a person.

So, we would suggest to all those war criminals internationally who perpetrate these most heinous crimes against mostly innocent populations not to look for a haven in South Africa, because the opportunity to prosecute them is there. If we do not do it, we will definitely collaborate with the international court to bring such persons to book.

Another very important principle spelled out in this legislation is that heads of state, heads of government and members of parliaments will not be able to raise a defence that they are heads of state. For example, if hon members followed the Pinochet case in England, that was the defence which was raised. This legislation will not allow a person to raise such a defence. If one is a member of an army or police force who took orders which are manifestly unlawful and one tries to use that as a defence, it will not be allowed as a defence in this legislation. So, in that sense, this legislation is being very innovative in not allowing that to happen.

The second piece of legislation is also vitally important for workers in this country. As hon members may know, under the previous dispensation, legislation was not well disposed towards workers in this country. The legislation dealing with liquidations and sequestrations was particularly onerous and not to the benefit of workers. Over a period of time this Government has introduced various measures to change that situation, which I am not going to spell out.

This piece of legislation is a further step in that direction. As the law now stands, section 38 of the Insolvency Act provides that if a company is sequestrated or a person is made insolvent and there are any employer- employee contracts, they are terminated immediately and those people are out.

This legislation now changes that situation. It does not terminate the contract but suspends it, and only in so far as the contractual obligations that are contained in the employer-employee contract are concerned. In future, that would mean that the suspension will kick in in the beginning. The contract will only be automatically terminated legally 45 days after the final liquidator or trustee has been appointed. So, in the interim period it will allow for trade unions and workers to engage with the trustee and liquidator and come up with possible proposals to save that enterprise. That will immediately create space for workers to try and do that.

Secondly, the Act also provides that certain benefits - which I am not going to spell out here since the Act does that - will also now accrue to workers. I may point out that Cosatu also made a submission to us proposing that certain provisions not contained in that legislation but agreed to in the Nedlac process should also be included in the legislation. We did not express a view as to whether we agreed or disagreed with those proposals, although many people were very well-disposed towards them. However, the committee pointed out that those provisions were not in the legislation and that it would be impossible for us actually to pass the legislation without other persons having a chance to comment on the matter.

We have referred this matter, without making any decision on it, back to the department to make sure that those provisions are dealt with in the legislation. The department is at the moment reviewing all aspects of the insolvency and sequestration laws. So, that piece of legislation is equally vitally important for the protection of workers and gives them certain benefits in instance where there are sequestrations and liquidations.

Lastly, there is the Bill that has been commonly known as the ``Bram Fischer Bill,’’ through which we have created a mechanism, as our Minister has pointed out, for a family or certain institutions after consultation with the family, to bring an application to court to reinstate those persons or lawyers that were removed from rolls of attorneys or advocates because of their political activities or affiliations.

This piece of legislation is vital, and the biggest worry we had was how to honour those persons. It is fine for us to reinstate them on the roll, as we should - embarrassingly, we have taken a very long time to do so. But equally, what will we do once they are reinstated? In this instance we have spelt out in the legislation that the name of any person who has been reinstated should be sent to Parliament, which can then act accordingly to honour such a person. We have also asked the Minister to interact with the relevant role-players, families and so on, to see if there are no other ways in which we can honour these persons that were persecuted merely because they were trying to be lawyers and do their duty with the necessary conscious that it entails. As usual, I thank the Minister for guiding us in this process, as well as the department, particularly Mr A Basset on the International Criminal Court, Mr Tienie Cronje on the Insolvency Amendment Bill and Mr De Lange on the Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill. We thank them for the sterling work that they have performed in that regard. We could not have done it without them. I also appreciate all the assistance I got from my long-suffering committee. [Applause.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Mr Chairperson, as members have noted, a number of Bills have been programmed for discussion in this debate. I will deal with them as follows. Firstly, the Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Legal Practitioners Bill and Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill.

The DA strongly supports these Bills. These Bills provide an opportunity to former legal practitioners and family members of a deceased attorney or advocate who, due to their own political activism and rendering legal and other assistance to people who were resisting the apartheid regime and sought to bring about political change, were subsequently struck off their respective rolls, to be reinstated. Consultation with the deceased person’s family is a requirement if certain other bodies, such as the General Council of the Bar and the law society wish to apply for such person’s reinstatement on their behalf.

The DA’s position on this issue is clear. We support these Bills as an endeavour to rectify the injustices of the past. The DP has unwaveringly fought any injustice which could be associated with apartheid and will continue to do so. Being struck from the roll of advocates or attorneys due to one’s association with or for rendering legal assistance to members involved in the struggle against apartheid was and still is inexcusable. The intolerance, lack of understanding and ulterior motive for removing well-intentioned and most honourable members of the attorneys and advocates profession was totally unacceptable. This Bill should also remind us of a past not to be followed again. History has shown us what we should not repeat in future. So too, we expect a greater degree of vigilance by bodies and institutions such as the various law societies and Bar councils, including the Judicial Services Commission, to prevent a recurrence of the past. The DP today wishes to honour those former members of the legal profession, some posthumously, who by means of an application to the High Court qualify to be reinstated on the roll of advocates and attorneys. In this regard, the DA particularly wishes to congratulate our previous President, Nelson Mandela, on his application to be reinstated.

I now turn to the Insolvency Amendment Bill. The DP has on numerous occasions since 1999 and even before, raised the issue of a review of restrictive labour laws in Parliament. The usual reply was that such a review was being conducted in order to create an atmosphere or economic environment in which the creation of employment would be enhanced. However, from the reading of this Bill, little if any progress has been made. Although the DP understands the reason why employees in situations like these have been afforded the protection as spelled out in the Bill, we still await amendments to various Acts which will create an environment in which job creation will be fundamental.

The Bill, which is the result of negotiations at Nedlac, contains the following provisions. The contracts of service of employees whose employer has been sequestrated, are suspended with effect from the date of the granting of the sequestration order and not terminated as was the case in the past. Although an employee whose contract has been suspended is not required to render services in terms of the contract, the trustee, on behalf of the sequestrated employer’s estate, is not required to pay such employee. However, such employees have been granted the right to claim from the Unemployment Insurance Fund or UIF, as it is known, as if their services have been terminated. An employee in these circumstances will have the right to claim compensation from the insolvent estate of his or her former employer for loss suffered due to the suspension or termination of the contract of service prior to its expiration.

Trustees are furthermore required to consult with employer organisations in terms of a collective agreement; alternatively, with the workplace forum, a registered trade union representing employees whose contracts of service were suspended; and lastly, the employees themselves if they are not represented by any of the aforementioned. Such consultation must seek to reach consensus on measures to save or rescue the business of the insolvent. Although this intention is noble, the practical consequences and result might be fraught with difficulty.

I will now deal with the Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Bill. The DP has always supported legislation which seeks to promote a free and crime-free South African society. Ever- increasing globalisation has caused countries to implement the provisions of the International Criminal Court Act, as provided for in the Rome Statute accepted in July 1998. The implementation of this statute, in addition to the normal rules relating to extradition, would ensure that criminals, whether they be South Africans or citizens from other countries, are afforded no opportunity to escape the legal consequences of certain crimes provided for in the statute, namely genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.

The crime of genocide is defined as conduct committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. A crime against humanity means conduct committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, which would include murder, extermination and enslavement, as well as the deportation or forcible transfer of a population.

In short, the object of this Act is to ensure that anything done in terms of the Act conforms to the obligations of South Africa in accordance with the above-mentioned statute. It is important to note that this Bill gives jurisdiction to a South African court in respect of any person who commits a crime within as well as outside the territory of the Republic.

However, such crimes will be deemed to have been committed within the territory of the Republic for the purposes of jurisdiction if that person, as has been stated before, is a South African citizen or ordinarily resident in the Republic, or alternatively is present in the Republic after the commission of the crime, or, further alternatively if the said crimes were committed against a South African citizen or a person who is ordinarily resident in the Republic. It is clear that jurisdiction in the South African High Court is only founded upon the fulfilment of any of the above-mentioned criteria. This Bill does not attempt to provide unlimited or so-called universal jurisdiction to the South African High Court.

The DP supports this Bill in so far as it ensures that the International Criminal Court will be another instrument, albeit an important one, in providing the global village with a crime-free society. [Applause.]

Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, I quote:

People all over the world want to know that humanity can strike back - that whatever and whenever genocide, war crimes or other such violations are committed there is a court before which the criminal can be held to account; a court that puts an end to a global culture of impunity.

These are the words of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Mr Kofi Annan. The International Criminal Court has been described by Amnesty International as a permanent independent judicial body created by the international community of states to prosecute the most heinous crimes under international law, namely genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The advent of the International Criminal Court has suddenly made the world a small place. The experience of General Augusto Pinochet, the former Chilean dictator who found that he could no longer leave the borders of his country without possibly facing arrest and prosecution for having perpetrated war crimes and crimes against humanity, will now also be visited upon other perpetrators of such crimes in a manner that is consistent with the rule of law.

In the more than 50 years since the Nuremberg trials, the United Nations Security Council has established only two ad hoc international criminal tribunals. Although the international criminal tribunals for the former Yugoslavia, established in 1993, and for Rwanda, established in 1994, have been relatively effective, the Security Council has failed to establish similar ad hoc tribunals for other similarly grave occurrences such as in Cambodia, Chechnya, East Timor, Guatemala, Iraq, Sierra Leone, Israel, Palestine and Somalia.

The reliance on the mandate of the United Nations Security Council has the potential for selective justice and for politicising a judicial process. For example, if Ariel Sharon had perpetrated today the atrocities he is alleged to have committed in the Shatiela and Sabra refugee camps of Lebanon, he would be liable for investigation and possible prosecution in terms of this Rome Statute. However, in terms of the United Nations Security Council mandate, just one permanent member of the Security Council would be entitled to exercise its veto right, effectively putting a stop to such an investigation and prosecution.

I want to take this opportunity to highlight the crucial role played by African states, particularly SADC states, in the ratification of the Rome Statute and the bringing into being of the International Criminal Court. The very first country to ratify the Rome Statute was from Africa, and that was Senegal. Significantly, the United States of America, which trumpets the fight against global terror, only signed the Rome Statute on 31 December 2001, which was the deadline for signing it, but has since refused to ratify the statute. Any country refusing to ratify the Rome Statute foregoes a perfect opportunity to strike a real blow at global terrorism.

It is ironic that many countries that demand that African states adhere to the rule of law and democratic ideals have themselves refused to bring into being the International Criminal Court. Indeed, the role played by SADC states in the ratification and incorporation of International Criminal Court crimes into their national laws is nothing but commendable. Without the leadership and pivotal role played by SADC countries at the United Nations and in Rome, the world might possibly not have witnessed the adoption of the ICC statute. It must also be noted that SADC states were subjected to all kinds of pressure, particularly that the International Criminal Court should be subjected to the United Nations Security Council mandate. These pressures were successfully resisted.

The refusal by certain countries to ratify and implement the Rome Statute serves to deny the fundamental concept of humanity. Armed conflict in various parts of the world is a reality. Whether that conflict is internecine, as in the DRC, or between states, as in Kashmir between India and Pakistan, such conflicts must be conducted according to the norms and standards set by the international community.

Most, if not all, of these conflicts result in atrocities being committed. Certain countries, some of whom are described as power houses'', prefer to describe such atrocities ascollateral damage’’ when those atrocities are committed by their own foot soldiers and commandos. The argument or concept of collateral damage can, therefore, no longer be used as a defence against charges of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. Similarly, the defence of, I was merely carrying out orders'', as used by some foot soldiers, or,I was unaware what my foot soldiers were doing’’, as used by some commanders in armed conflicts, will no longer find favour in the International Criminal Court.

One of the champions of the creation of the International Criminal Court has been the International Committee of the Red Cross. The ICRC is mandated by state parties to the 1949 Geneva Conventions to promote the development of international humanitarian law, its effective implementation and respect therefor. Also known as the law of war'', or thelaw of armed conflict’’, international humanitarian law consists of detailed rules aimed at protecting persons who do not or no longer take part in hostilities, and at limiting the methods and means of warfare.

These rules are codified mainly by the four Geneva Conventions of 1949 and the two additional protocols of 1977. Serious violations of these rules are regarded as war crimes, for which international humanitarian law holds individuals responsible and requires states to prosecute alleged perpetrators before their national courts.

The obligation of states to repress war crimes in their national jurisdictions and to co-operate with one another in doing so has not been consistently implemented. In view of this shortcoming, the International Committee of the Red Cross has championed the creation of a permanent international criminal court as an important step towards a more effective and comprehensive system of punishment for serious violations of international humanitarian law.

I reiterate, for perpetrators of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes, the world has suddenly become a small place, and the number of safe havens has been drastically reduced.

Allow me to take this opportunity to also convey our thanks and appreciation to Prof Wale Merira and his team in the Justice Department, including Mr Basset, for their work on this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, ngivumele ngisho kumfowethu uLanga olaphayana ukuthi, cha, sengathi sizobuka ngeso elilodwa kule miThetho-sivivinywa emithathu kunaleyo esiqale ngayo ekuseni - lapho kade sithelana ngezintuli khona. [Chairperson, allow me to say to my Brother Langa who is sitting out there that it seems as if we share the same ideas regarding these three Bills and the ones that we started with this morning - when we were criticising each other.]

The Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill provides, as the title would suggest, for the enrolment of a legal practitioner whose name was removed from the roll due to political activities in our apartheid past, to be reinstated. The IFP supports the Bill, as it is a fitting gesture to the families of the deceased lawyers in that it clears their names and reinstates their enrolment. In doing so the Bill plays an important role in addressing the legacy of our past and makes a lasting contribution to national reconciliation.

Coming now to the next one, South Africa ratified the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court on 10 November 2000. In essence the statute provides for the establishment of an International Criminal Court for the prosecution of individuals for crimes of international concern. The statute is to come into effect on 1 July 2002, because 60 instruments of ratification have already been deposited with the United Nations. It is therefore fitting that this House should debate the Bill today.

The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the implementation of the Rome Statute in South Africa for co-ordination between ourselves and the International Criminal Court and for the arrest and surrender of persons to the court. The IFP supports the Bill and we believe it is important to point out that the Bill deals with individuals who have committed crimes of international concern and not against the state as such. Other international forums exist to deal with a state that engages in heinous crimes such as war crimes and genocide.

From our point of view it is somewhat unfortunate that the powers of the International Criminal Court will not apply retrospectively to crimes committed by individuals in the recent past. The scars left by these crimes will therefore probably not be addressed, as we experienced in our TRC. It is much better for long-term peace and reconciliation that the monsters of the past are confronted and laid to rest as soon as possible.

It is no secret that the face of international crime is continually changing and becoming more complicated for the enforcement agencies to deal with effectively. We therefore wholeheartedly support the establishment of the International Criminal Court, and hope that it will be successful in the worldwide fight against international crime. The IFP also calls on our Government to implement its obligations, so that South Africa can take its rightful place and make a meaningful contribution in this fight.

Lastly, the IFP welcomes and supports the Insolvency Amendment Bill. The main purpose of this Bill is to offer a measure of protection for the employees of an insolvent employer. This is primarily done in two ways. Firstly, employment contracts are suspended and not summarily terminated by insolvency. This allows an employee to apply for and receive employment benefits in terms of the Unemployment Insurance Act of 1966. Secondly, employees will qualify for severance benefits as defined in the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, because they will be treated as having been dismissed due to the operational requirements of the employer. Severance benefits can then be claimed from the estate of the insolvent employer.

The Bill will certainly not end insolvency and is not intended to do so. We support the fact that some form of additional protection is offered to employees who often find themselves unemployed at the stroke of a pen when their employer is declared insolvent. The Bill now gives them a somewhat short-term safety net until they can find alternative employment. [Applause.]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, it is a pity that so little time is available to debate these three important pieces of legislation, which the portfolio committee has spent many hours fine-tuning. This is due to our heavy legislative load. Seven of our Bills were debated this morning. For this reason it is perhaps appropriate to reassure the public out there that the short time allocated to this debate on these three pieces of legislation is the mere tip of the iceberg as far as discussion of these measures in the committee is concerned.

The New NP has pleasure in supporting all three pieces of legislation. The only surprising thing about the Bram Fischer Bill is the length of time it has taken the Government to introduce this measure - eight years post democracy. It purports to reinstate, even posthumously, legal practitioners who were unjustly removed from the roll of advocates and attorneys because of their prominent opposition to apartheid. Clearly, if their activities had not been prominent, the apartheid government would not have noticed them, and they would have escaped the ignominy of being struck off the roll. So the purpose of the Bill is to honour these practitioners and the contribution they made to the fight against apartheid.

The reinstatement occurs in the public domain by way of a High Court application which may be made by a family member, the bar council or law society concerned, or any other interested party. In the view of the New NP, it would be appropriate for the General Council of the Bar of SA in the case, for example, of the late Adv Bram Fischer, and for the Law Society of SA in the case of an attorney such as Lewis Baker, to make the first move towards their reinstatement, and we call upon them to play a prominent role in this.

As far as the Insolvency Amendment Bill is concerned, these insolvency amending Bills seem to happen nearly every parliamentary session and on the whole, save for the specialist practitioner, are a big yawn as they deal with the arcane and technical points of insolvency law and practice. This is not the case as regards this piece of legislation. It will have important consequences and, hopefully, benefits for ordinary men and women in employment.

This is because it aims to protect and strengthen their rights as creditors of the business or company for whom they are working when it goes insolvent or into liquidation. The significance of this amendment is clear when one takes into account the number of liquidations for the latest 12 months, available to May 2002, namely, 4 661 company liquidations and 3 044 personal insolvencies - that is just in one year.

Previously, the approach was simply to walk away from these employees in the case of a liquidation. The Bill now provides that the contracts of service are suspended rather than cancelled, and that the trustee or liquidator may not then terminate these contracts until consultations have taken place in terms of the relevant legislation, such as the Labour Relations Act and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act with, inter alia, the trade unions to which those affected might belong or, of course, any workplace forum.

The purpose of the consultation is to try to save the business and the jobs that are involved. This is not an open-ended process so as not to scare off a possible purchaser of the business and creditors who may also be part of the consultation process. It lasts 45 days, whereafter, if the business has not been saved, the contracts of service are then indeed terminated. This is, at least, a start in affording such employees greater protection in terms of the agreements reached at Nedlac.

As far as the Bill to implement the Rome Statute is concerned, which establishes the International Criminal Court, this is a landmark in our post-1994 legislative programme, in that it reaffirms South Africa’s international role in the administration of criminal justice. South Africa signed and ratified the Rome Statute in November 2000 but it cannot be implemented in our country, of course, until it becomes part of our domestic law, which is the intention of this Bill.

The Rome Statute creates the International Criminal Court to deal with genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes - some 50 of them are listed in terms of the Bill. These now have become crimes under South African law for the first time in our history. However, the Bill specifically provides, as indeed is necessary in terms of our Constitution, that no prosecution may be instituted against a person accused of committing any of these crimes prior to the commencement of the statute in the first place, internationally and, in the second place, domestically - that is to say, prior to 1 July 2002 when it is projected that the international statute will come into operation and hopefully in our country as well. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr J T MASEKA: Mr Chairperson, it is my pleasure to say that the UDM supports all three pieces of legislation. This does not necessarily indicate that the UDM is going to cross the floor.

Previously, parliament was the supreme body of the country and laws that protected the apartheid regime were enacted. Any person who was seen to be opposing and/or assisting persons who were opposed to the apartheid dispensation, was seen as an enemy of the apartheid dispensation. There are provisions in the Admission of Advocates Act, Act 74 of 1964 and the Attorneys Act, Act 53 of 1979, to strike from the roll of advocates or attorneys any legal practitioner who is regarded as undesirable in the profession. This led to advocates or attorneys who opposed the previous political dispensation of apartheid or assisted persons who were opposed to the apartheid dispensation, being struck from the roll.

This amendment is important, because it makes provision for the reinstatement of the enrolment of certain deceased legal practitioners who were struck from the roll of advocates or attorneys as a result of their participation in opposing the previous apartheid regime. The application may be brought by a family member of such deceased person, or any other interested person, but only after consulting the deceased’s family. Such applications can be brought to court for the re-admission of such a person.

With regard to the Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Bill, the Republic of South Africa has since 1994 become an integral, accepted member of the community of nations, which means that any competent court in the Republic of South Africa has the jurisdiction to prosecute any case of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed by accused persons in South Africa and beyond the borders of South Africa. The Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Bill creates a framework to ensure that South Africa is in line with international requirements in respect of the arrest and prosecution of accused persons in South Africa and beyond the borders of South Africa.

With regard to the Insolvency Amendment Bill, at present a contract of employment between the employer and employee terminates on the date on which application for sequestration is granted against an individual employer, company or close corporation. Employees are regarded as having been dismissed and are deprived of protection, such as the right not to be unfairly dismissed and the right to severance pay.

These amendments to the Insolvency Act make provision for the suspension of obligations between the employer and the employee in terms of their contract of service which basically means that the employee will not be required to tender service in terms of the contract of service. It is also important to note that, despite the suspension of the contract of service, employees will be deemed to be unemployed and will be entitled to unemployment benefits in terms of the Unemployment Insurance Act. [Applause.]

Mr G B MAGWANISHE: Chairperson and hon members, on behalf of the ANC I rise to support the Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill. We support this Bill, as the ANC, because these attorneys and advocates who were struck from the roll remind us of warrior men and women that Hintsa and Sekhukhune led. These people remind us, as young people, of Comrade Peter Mokaba, who always said sometimes one should be prepared to change one’s tactics, but one should never compromise one’s principles.

We see them as patriots that Cetshwayo and Mphephu led to the battlefield. These sons and daughters of the soil took to their graves the teachings of Moshoeshoe and Nghunghunyani, who taught their soldiers never to dishonour the cause of freedom because at that time in their lives our country was at war with itself. We lost great legal minds like Adv Bram Fischer QC. Although the defence team he led lost in the apartheid court in 1964 when the Rivonia trialists were sentenced to life imprisonment, all these legal practitioners won their most important case in 1994 when the system they fought against was finally defeated through a democratic process which they fought for.

When accused number one in the Rivonia trial, Comrade Nelson Mandela, was finally elected the President of the Republic of South Africa and some of his comrades - people like the hon Andrew Mlangeni, the late Goven Mbeki and others - were elected to this Parliament, the people of South Africa said that together with Shun Chetty, Bram Fischer and many others, we have always believed in the victory of good over evil.

These legal practitioners used their skills and training to liberate their people, not to oppress them. They had to endure pain and humiliation for us to be free. By passing this Bill, we are committing ourselves to redress the injustices of the past suffered by such practitioners, who were resisting the apartheid dispensation or assisted persons who did so, We are also committed to honouring these practitioners, who assisted in the shaping of the history of South Africa by restoring the professional status of those legal practitioners who were so removed from the rolls during the apartheid dispensation.

Section 1 of this Act stipulates that despite the provisions of the Admission of Advocates Act of 1964 and the Attorneys Act of 1979, the name of any deceased person who was removed from the roll of attorneys or advocates prior to 27 April 1994 may, upon application brought by a member of such deceased person’s family or after consultation with the deceased person’s family, by any other interested party to any High Court, be reinstated on the roll of attorneys or advocates, as the case may be, if the court is satisfied that the conduct that led to that person’s name being removed from the roll in question was directly related to that person’s opposition to the political dispensation of apartheid; to bringing about political or constitutional change in the Republic; or to assisting persons who were likewise opposed to the said apartheid dispensation.

Section 2(1) of the Act stipulates that if the High Court orders that the name of the person be reinstated, as contemplated in subsection 1, to the roll of advocates, the registrar of the court must forthwith forward a certified copy of that order to the Director-General of Justice and Constitutional Development, who must enter a reference to that order opposite the name of the person in question or in the roll of attorneys. The registrar of the court must keep a reference to that order opposite the name of the person in question in the register kept by him or her for that purpose, and forward certified copies of that order to the registrar of the other courts. The registrar of deeds, in terms of the Deeds Registries Act of 1937, in turn, must enter a reference to that order opposite the name of the person in question in the register kept by him or her.

Section 2 of the Bill stipulates that the Minister of Justice must cause the names of such persons so reinstated in the roll of advocates or attorneys, in terms of section 1, to be submitted to Parliament. We also request the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development to cause his department, in conjunction with the legal profession, to refer to the Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, within three months after the passing of this Bill, any possible options available to honour the memory of the persons involved.

I can assure the nation and the world that where these people are now, they are saying: Asinamona, asinanzondo, siyayidumisa iNingizimu Afrika. [We are not jealous, we bear no grudge and we uphold the name of South Africa.] We are not greedy, we harbour no hate, we praise South Africa. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I am delighted to welcome to the people’s Parliament, the democratic Parliament of South Africa, the national rugby team. [Applause.] I am certain that the presence of the Minister of Sport with our national team will duly inspire them this weekend, when they meet in the second encounter with Wales, to do even better than they did last weekend. [Applause.]

I think the most significant aspect of their being here this afternoon is that it says to all of South Africa that not only are all South Africans welcome here, but that, in fact, they are all duty-bound to come here and be in close proximity with the people’s representatives of our democracy.

Welcome to all of you. [Applause.] Again, on the members’ behalf, we wish the team very good luck this weekend. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, in so far as the implementation of the Rome Statute is concerned, the ACDP is fully supportive of its objectives, as set out in the Act, namely to bring persons who commit genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and the crime of oppression to justice.

In lighter vein, the ACDP believes that the destruction of Wales by the Springboks on Saturday should not constitute such a crime!

HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: The ACDP supports the Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill, which is aimed at providing for the reinstatement of legal practitioners who were struck from the roll of advocates or attorneys as a result of their opposition to apartheid. We believe that this step is long overdue, and look forward to the names of practitioners such as Bram Fischer and those mentioned by the hon the Minister being reinstated.

In so far as the Insolvency Amendment Bill is concerned, the ACDP supports the broad thrust of the amendments, namely to protect employees. We do, however, share a matter of concern, as raised by the insolvency practitioners. As an unintended consequence of the legislation, the purchase of a business as a going concern from a trustee of the sequestrated employer may no longer be a viable option. This is the effect the consultation with employees may have on attempts by the trustee to sell the insolvent business as a going concern. These negotiations take place at an early stage, and consultations with employees might frustrate the process.

It was, however, mentioned during deliberations that the Act only required the trustees to attempt to reach consensus. In the event of a failed consensus, the Act does not prevent the trustee from proceeding with the job. We agree that it would be better to save 100 out of 200 jobs, than not to save any jobs at all. However, the ACDP fully endorses the alteration of the ranking of employees from concurrent creditors to preferred creditors.

In conclusion the ACDP has pleasure in supporting these three Bills.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF is in full support of the reinstatement of deceased legal practitioners who were restricted or removed from practice due to their commitment to working against the injustice of the apartheid regime, and assisting those who dedicated themselves to overthrowing that regime. By this reinstatement, we would be paying our respects, expressing our appreciation and saluting these comrades’ commitment to justice and the freedom of our people.

The MF supports global commitment to humanity, in view of our position in the world. However, we must bear in mind that our history differs from that of the rest of the world and our courts’ first priority is to serve the South African community, not to be intimidated by foreigners. The MF supports the Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Bill.

As for the Insolvency Amendment Bill, the MF feels that the accommodation of the employer and employee is adequate and acceptable. However, the criteria to establish the sequestration of an entity and the method of establishing compensation, as well as severance and retrenchment payouts should be pondered upon. Further, the protection and consideration of creditors is also questionable and …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Miss S RAJBALLY: The MF supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr G SOLOMON: Chairperson, the Insolvency Amendment Bill is a very technical piece of legislation, as we have heard here. It basically provides that workers, through their representatives, become part of the process when an employer becomes insolvent and is sequestrated, in order to secure their rights under the Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997. The experience of workers, as some of us might know, is that they sometimes arrive for work at the workplace only to find it locked up. There is just a notice on the board saying that the employer is insolvent and is being liquidated.

The Insolvency Act of 1996 provides that the sequestration of an insolvent employer terminates all contracts of employment between that employer and the employees. As a result, the failure of an employer’s business, leading to insolvency, has drastic consequences for workers. In addition, workers are deprived of benefits such as severance pay in terms of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997. Despite these extreme consequences of insolvency for employees, neither employees nor their trade unions have any right to be notified of legal proceedings brought to sequestrate the employer.

These difficulties of workers are of great concern, particularly to Cosatu. The Insolvency Amendment Bill under discussion addresses these shortcomings. It creates a right for employees of employers who are subject to voluntary sequestration proceedings to be consulted on proceedings and orders issued by the court. In simple terms, a worker will have the status of a creditor who has rights against the estate of the insolvent employer. The ANC supports this amendment.

The Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill is one of the shortest Bills that the committee has had to deal with but it is a very important one. The Bill makes provision for the reinstatement of legal practitioners who were struck off the roll of advocates or attorneys as a result of their opposition to the political dispensation of apartheid or were legal practitioners, who are now deceased, who assisted persons who were opposed to apartheid.

The Bill seeks to provide that the name of any deceased person who was removed from the roll of advocates or attorneys prior to 1994 may, on application to the High Court, be reinstated to the roll of advocates or attorneys. The application may be brought by a member of the deceased person’s family or, after consultation with that person’s family, by various structures of the legal profession.

The court would have to be satisfied that the removal from the roll was directly related to that person’s opposition to the political dispensation of apartheid. The names of two such persons, among many others, who were well known for their opposition to apartheid come to mind today. The first is Shun Chetty, whose removal from the roll of attorneys was directly related to the enormous legal and other assistance that he gave to persons who were committed to resisting the apartheid regime. His wife, Fazila, has indicated that she wants whatever is necessary to be done in order to have her husband reinstated posthumously.

The other person, among many others, is Bram Fischer, the Afrikaner son of a judge president whom Nelson Mandela described in the Long Walk to Freedom in this manner Bram Fischer fought against his own people to ensure the freedom of others''. I recently read an interesting article related to the issue under discussion in The Advocate of April 2002. The information in the article had been extracted from a work by Jan Christoffel Greyling Kemp and it was entitledVir Vryheid en vir Reg’’ which translates into: For Freedom and for Justice.

In that article, T S Emlie, senior counsel of the Cape Bar related the stories of a number of members of the Afrikaner community in the legal profession. Those were persons of law who exchanged their law reports for Mausers or Lee Metfords rifles, for the hide and seek of guerilla warfare on horseback amongst the koppies in the veld. One of those persons was Jan Christiaan Smuts or General Smuts, a member of the Cape and Johannesburg Bars and later attorney-general of the Transvaal. He went on commando after Pretoria fell in 1900 and led an incredibly hazardous and daring incursion into the Cape Colony from 1901 until the Peace of Vereeniging.

The other person was J B M Hertzog who was a judge of the Supreme Court in Bloemfontein and commanded the Boer guerillas of the southwestern districts of the Free State. He is on record for his daredevilry, hairbreadth escapes, literally, and the dangers that he passed through and encountered. He did all that, in response to a calling by the Boer people, the Afrikaners, to fling themselves in proud defiance against the march of the British empire, and in the words of J C G Kemp: vir vryheid en vir reg.

Courage of this by the Afrikaner volk certainly count among the proud moments in the history of that community. But, I am not aware that any of these legal persons were ever sanctioned by removal from the roll of attorneys or denied practice at the Bar. No, they were celebrated and attained the highest office in government. They were highly rewarded for taking the law into their own hands.

It is a dismal shame that comrades, colleagues and friends in the legal profession, whose names were mentioned here by the Minister, including Shun Chetty and Bram Fischer, had to be punished and dishonourably struck from the roll for their involvement in the struggle for freedom and justice …

… soos J C G Kemp dit stel in sy boek Vir Vryheid en vir Reg. [… as J C G Kemp has stated in his book entitled Vir Vryheid en vir Reg.]

Today, the ANC celebrates the role played by persons in the legal profession who directly used their legal skills in the cause of freedom and democracy and resolves here today, in this House, to reinstate them with dignity and honour. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I rise essentially to thank the hon members for what was a great debate on the three Bills. However, one or two remarks would not be completely out of place. Firstly, the criticism by the hon Sheila Camerer, namely that we have taken too long to address the question of the reinstatement of those attorneys and advocates who were struck off the roll merely for their opposition to apartheid, is well taken. We have taken note.

However, it is always useful to remember we were not ``sitting on our hands’’. There are so many things that we have done in the past eight years. Yet, there are many other things that we need to do together. I am certain that the people whose reinstatement we are all agreeing is long overdue, would be the last ones to ask why we did not start with them. They would have shown us the long queues of abused women and children, as well as the poverty-stricken homeless people who, in the bitterly cold winters and rainy seasons of our country, are sleeping in shacks. But the criticism is well taken.

An hon member asked me in writing whether the following people are not deserving of this treatment: Firstly, Rowley Arenstein, I wish to state, was earlier reinstated and practised for a short while before his untimely death. He and another attorney called Hassim were reinstated. So, they no longer need this treatment. They may need other forms of treatment, but certainly not this one.

The other person is the late Oliver Reginald Tambo. It struck me, when the hon member asked this question, that I had to rush out quickly and ask my office to check the facts, because I did not want to make an erroneous assumption here. He was never struck off the roll. Attempts might have been made to do so in respect of quite a number of others, but those who had already left for exile fortunately escaped this.

I wish to thank hon members for their comments. I am now ready to go and enjoy my lunch. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The hon the Minister is the only Minister who, if he invites you to come to the bar, could actually mean two different things. [Laughter.]

Mr M J ELLIS: But now he has invited us for lunch!

Debate concluded.

Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain Deceased Legal Practitioners Bill read a second time.

Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Bill read a second time.

Insolvency Amendment Bill read a second time.

Business suspended at 12:54 and resumed at 14:03.

Afternoon Sitting

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the SA Broadcasting Corporation and the Robben Island Museum have launched the children’s educational television series on apartheid;

(2) believes that this programme will contribute positively to encouraging progressive values and a culture of civic responsibility amongst children;

(3) further believes that this programme will foster national unity amongst children; and

(4) commends the SABC and Robben Island Museum for launching this important educational programme for children of the rainbow nation.

Mr I O DAVIDSON: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the Democratic Alliance:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  with alarm the warnings given by the mining industry that
       investments worth R30 billion are in jeopardy because of
       uncertainty generated by the new Mineral and Petroleum Resources
       Development Bill; and


   (b)  that this uncertainty is a result of -


       (i)   the threat inherent in the Bill of expropriation without
                compensation;


       (ii)  the lack of security of tenure;


       (iii) the wide ministerial discretion; and


       (iv)  the lack of judicial appeal; and

(2) urges the Government to give urgent attention to these issues to ensure the continued flow of capital to the mining industry in the interests of genuine empowerment and upliftment of our communities.

Mr M S M SIBIYA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock that two people were shot and seriously wounded when gunmen opened fire at a high school fundraising event at a night club in Paarden Island on Saturday morning;

(2) prays for the speedy recovery of the two injured people; and

(3) urges anyone that might have information on the gunmen to assist the police so that they can make an arrest as soon as possible.

Ms J T NTULI: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the HIV/Aids pandemic represents a major challenge to our country and our region;

(2) acknowledges the excellent programmes put in place by Government to enhance awareness of how the disease is spread and can be prevented, to improve primary health services, to treat opportunistic infections and to set up pilot programmes so that the provision of antiretroviral treatment is implemented in a sustainable, cost- effective and responsible manner; and

(3) welcomes the data contained in the HIV prevalence report released on Monday which indicate that the infection rate of pregnant mothers under the age of 20 has fallen from 18% to 15,4%, indicating the effectiveness of the programmes of the Department of Health, led by the hon Minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang.

[Applause.] Mnr P UYS: Mev die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek namens die Nuwe NP by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem dat die grootste gros DA-beheerde munisipale rade sal val na die nuwe Nuwe NP/ANC-deelnemende regering, sodra Nuwe NP-lede wat tans binne die DA vasgevang is, weer hulself by die Nuwe NP kan skaar wanneer die oorloopklousule in werking tree …

[Tussenwerpsels.]

(2) verder kennis neem dat dit ‘n einde sal bring aan Nuwe NP-raadslede se gedwonge lojaliteitsverklarings en DA dreigemente van dissiplinêre aksie teen hulle, in ‘n wanhopige poging om hulle in die DA te hou en meriete te gee aan die DA se ``spin”-syfers; en

[Tussenwerpsels.]

(3) daarna uitsien om, wanneer die wetgewing dit moontlik maak en lede uiteindelik kan optree volgens hulle oortuiging, al ons Nuwe NP-lede terug te verwelkom, maar ook lede van ander partye wat by die Nuwe NP tuishoort.

[Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr P UYS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the vast majority of DA-controlled municipal councils will fall to the New NP/ANC-participatory government, as soon as New NP members who are currently trapped in the DA, can once again join the New NP when the defection clause comes into operation …

[Interjections.] (2) further notes that it will put an end to the New NP councillors’ forced declarations of loyalty and DA threats of disciplinary action against them, in a desperate attempt to keep them in the DA and give merit to the DA’s ``spin’’ figures …

(3) looks forward, when the legislation makes it possible and when members can finally act according to their convictions, to welcoming back all our New NP members, but also members of other parties who belong with the New NP.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of the House:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill is currently the subject of public hearings before the parliamentary committee;

(2) further notes that major mining companies warned the committee that the Bill in its current format threatens investments in South Africa with an estimated value of R30 billion;

(3) acknowledges that these concerns, relating to security of tenure, are reasonable and that uncertainty about this issue could cost the country billions more in lost investment and negative investor confidence;

(4) also acknowledges that security of tenure is equally important to established mining operations as well as potential mining interests from previously disadvantaged communities and that Government’s treatment of security of tenure and mining rights of previously disadvantaged people has been unimpressive; and

(5) calls on Government to unambiguously affirm its commitment to the constitutional and democratic principle of security of tenure, in order to ensure that investment and development is not hampered.

Miss M N BUTHELEZI: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Comrades Sbu Ndebele, Zweli Mkhize, Dumisane Makhaye, and the Mayor of Richmond, Comrade Bheki Mtolo, joined the ANC Youth League in cleaning the Endaleni School for the Deaf in Richmond;

(2) further notes that this activity was part of the ANC Youth League’s project to launch the South African Youth Volunteer Movement which aims to encourage young people to offer their voluntary services for the reconstruction of the country and the entire African continent;

(3) welcomes the launch of the South African Youth Volunteer Movement; and

(4) calls on the youth from all walks of life to join the youth volunteer movement and to work towards the reconstruction and development of the country, the region and the continent.

[Applause.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:

That the House -

(1) notes with consternation the continuing pillaging of state funds and property by some public servants in the North West;

(2) awaits the outcome of the arrest of Paul Masimong, Chief Executive Officer of the Housing Board in the province, about whom there have been complaints by home owners in the North West and Thaba Nchu in the Free State;

(3) calls on all victims of this looting to come forward and give evidence to the police so that the screws can be turned tighter to leave no room to escape being sentenced; and

(4) urges the police to mount their investigation without fear or favour until they provide evidence that will stand the test of time.

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the PAC:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock and sadness the premature death of a young son of the soil, Peter Mokaba;

(2) expresses its heartfelt sympathy to his family, the ANC and the Limpopo Province, who lost a son and a potential leader; (3) go tumutš we mohlare wa mahlare a matala, mohlare o re bego re lebeletš gore o tla enywa dienywa, gape wa ba mokgapa o mogolo, morithi wa sisuwana tsa afrika. A ditlhoka di lale! (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[(3) A tree with green leaves has been uprooted, a tree which we had hoped would bear much fruit and also become a large tree giving shade to many poor orphans of Africa. May this ill wind of disaster pass over!]

[Applause.]

Mr D D MABUZA: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that under the ANC Government, personal taxes have gradually been reduced, ensuring that middle and low-income earners are better able to enjoy the fruits of their labour; (2) further notes that the South African Revenue Service continues to improve its efficiency, ensuring that all South Africans pay the taxes that they owe, so that the programmes of this Government - dedicated to building better lives for all South Africans - are funded fairly equitably; and

(3) welcomes the scrapping of certain tax breaks which will prevent employees claiming deductions to which they are not entitled and will result in SARS staff not having to spend so much assessment time checking up on deductions claimed.

[Applause.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the results of the 12th National HIV and syphilis sero- prevalence survey which shows that South Africa is facing a health crisis of catastrophic proportions around the issues of HIV/Aids;

(2) notes with concern that the infection rate of women in the age group of late 20s to 30s has increased;

(3) further notes that the Minister of Health appears to be focusing more on the rate of infection than on those already infected; and

(4) calls on Government to declare a national emergency which will allow South Africa to access generic antiretroviral equivalents at a fraction of the cost, making treatment affordable and thereby enhancing the quality of life of those persons already infected by the HI virus.

[Applause.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Cape High Court terror trial involving certain Pagad G- Force members was postponed on Monday following the assassination of a key defence witness, Sharief Lodewyk, over the weekend;

(2) extends its condolences to the family of Mr Lodewyk;

(3) calls for the swift arrest of Mr Lodewyk’s murderers; and

(4) urges the relevant authorities to provide the necessary protection for all witnesses in cases where their lives are in danger.

Mr N M DUMA: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House -

(1) notes that this weekend saw the launch in Germany of South Africa’s first new warship in 16 years and the first major war vessel ever designed specifically for South African conditions;

(2) recognises that security in the modern world can only be shared security where we are able to act together politically and militarily in defence of peace if necessary;

(3) acknowledges that peace and stability coupled with economic growth are the core of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development, Nepad; and

(4) congratulates the South African Navy and the SANDF on the naming of the corvette Amatola in memory of the people of South Africa who fought so bravely against colonisation and oppression.

[Applause.]

Mnr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Mev die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek namens die Nuwe NP by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) met skok kennis neem dat die Nasionale Ontwikkelingsagentskap se jaarverslag aandui dat meer as 84% van alle toelaes wat aan welsynsorganisasies en maatskaplike instansies toegeken is vir 2001- 02 nie uitbetaal is nie;

(2) verder kennis neem dat die Noord-Kaap nie ‘n sent van sy toegekende fondse versprei het nie, en die Oos-Kaap slegs 11% versprei het;

(3) dit onaanvaarbaar vind dat beskikbare fondse nie aangewend word nie weens swak administrasie; en

(4) ‘n beroep doen op die Departement van Maatskaplike Ontwikkeling en die Nasionale Ontwikkelingsagentskap om nouer saam te werk sodat die infrastruktuur geskep kan word om hierdie geld op grondvlak te versprei, want dit kan miljoene Suid-Afrikaners se lewensomstandighede drasties verbeter. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock that the National Development Agency’s annual report indicates that more than 84% of all grants allocated to welfare organisations and social institutions for 2001-2002 have not been paid out;

(2) further notes that the Northern Cape did not distribute a cent of its allocated funds and the Eastern Cape only distributed 11%;

(3) finds it unacceptable that available funds are not being utilised because of poor administration; and

(4) appeals to the Department of Social Development and the National Development Agency to co-operate more closely so that the infrastructure can be created to distribute these funds on the ground, because this money can drastically improve the living conditions of millions of South Africans.]

Ms N C NKABINDE: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of the House:

That the House -

(1) notes the stark contrast in the prevalence of HIV by province and age group;

(2) further notes that when comparing prevalence to infection rates, it is clear that Government policy and action are hopelessly flawed;

(3) expresses its grave concern that nearly one quarter of all women tested at antenatal clinics have HIV and that 83 000 babies have been infected;

(4) acknowledges that despite Government attempts at spin doctoring, the number of people affected last year has increased compared to the previous year, as it has consistently done since the survey was launched; and

(5) calls on Government to admit that their strategy has failed to protect the citizens of this country, and to immediately implement a national plan of action involving all sectors of society.

[Applause.]

Mr A G LYLE: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Thando Papers, a small business owned by Joseph Diliza, which
       makes paper out of alien reeds, sisal, tree bark, soft wood
       fibre and animal dung, will be one of the community-based
       enterprises that will be showcased at the World Summit on
       Sustainable Development in August;


   (b)  Mr Diliza not only runs a successful enterprise but also passes
       on some of his skills through community workshops; and


   (c)  Mr Diliza has been supported by the Montebello Design Centre in
       Cape Town and the University of Cape Town Graduate School of
       Business in developing business management skills; and   (2) congratulates Mr Diliza on his achievements and urges the corporate
   sector to forge partnerships with small-scale entrepreneurs to build
   employment and prosperity.

[Applause.]

                     FARM KILLINGS IN NYLSTROOM

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock the killing last Thursday evening of three farm workers, while sleeping, by their farm manager on a farm in Nylstroom, Northern Province;

(2) congratulates the South African Police Service on their swift action in arresting the farm manager, Mr Johan Weideman, and confiscating the .22 rifle and 9 mm pistol allegedly used to kill the farm workers, and also the judiciary on charging the farm manager with three counts of murder; and

(3) calls on the farming community to heed the calls of this Government to protect the safety of farmers and farm workers and to respect the contents of the agreement on the vision for agriculture in South Africa.

Agreed to.

LOSS OR RETENTION OF MEMBERSHIP OF NATIONAL AND PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

There was no debate.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES: - 265: Ainslie, A R; Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Baloyi, M R; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Dyani, M M Z; Ellis, M J; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Heine, R J; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lee, T D; Lekota, M G P; Le Roux, J W; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lowe, C M; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuza, D D; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke, D K; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbombo, N D; McIntosh, G B D; Mfundisi, I S; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Redcliffe, C R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seeco, M A; September, C C; Seremane, W J; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sono, B N; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, P S; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Waters, M; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.

NOES: - 42: Abram, S; Bekker, H J; Bhengu, G B; Biyela, B P; Buthelezi, M G; Cassim, M F; Dhlamini, B W; Douglas, B M; Ferreira, E T; Frolick, C T; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Koornhof, G W; Madasa, Z L; Makanda, W G; Mars, I; Maseka, J T; Mbadi, L M; Mbuyazi, L R; Meshoe, K R J; Mogoba, M S; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzizi, M A; Ndlovu, V B; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Ngubane, H; Nkabinde, N C; Pheko, S E M; Ramodike, M N; Roopnarain, U; Sibiya, M S M; Skosana, M B; Slabbert, J H; Smith, P F; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Vos, S C; Zondi, K M; Zulu, N E.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 4 - Home Affairs:

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, hon members, it is indeed a pleasure to introduce the debate on the Home Affairs appropriation for the 2002-03 financial year.

At the outset, I wish to pay tribute to my former Deputy Minister, the hon Charles Nqakula, who ably shared the responsibilities of my portfolio from January 2001 to May 2002. I thank him sincerely for his support, and I congratulate him again on his new appointment as the Minister of Safety and Security. I also wish to welcome my new Deputy Minister, Ms Nosiviwe Mapisa- Nqakula. I trust that the two of us will work together as a team in this demanding portfolio.

In this year’s state of the nation address, His Excellency President Mbeki urged us to expand access to service delivery and a better life for all. My department has made several contributions towards this goal by improving on our service delivery with the aim of rendering world class service to millions of South Africans from rural villages to modern city suburbs.

To this end, my department has integrated its priorities into various Government clusters and obtained funding for key projects, due to our participation in intergovernmental structures and processes. We have begun operating in terms of the required planning framework and we have ourselves drafted a strategic planning document, while seeking to optimise the allocation of public resources through co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations. However, I must add that underfunding will inevitably result in budget shortages. Despite reprioritisation, key aspects of departmental activity remain underfunded and adversely affected.

The two key considerations in the initial departmental budgeting process and the reprioritisation undertaken to address funding deficits have been tied to our strategic priorities set out in our strategic plan and are linked to the Government’s national programme of action, as well as the priorities determined by the Cabinet and the cluster of which the department is a member. However, critical priorities affecting our ability to provide a world-class service remain unfunded, adversely impacting on overall Government performance in many spheres.

The current fixed establishment of the department consists of 7 320 posts of which 692 are vacant and not funded. The other 477 are severance package posts which cannot be filled, creating dissatisfaction from customers with services received at our offices. Rendering a world-class service while operating with a vacancy rate of more than 16%, on an establishment based on the needs of 1995, is impossible. Therefore, the department is compiling a new staff establishment.

It is also necessary for my department to work smarter. We are moving from manual processes to electronic systems, gradually computerising more and more offices. Automation will also assist the department to curb corruption amongst officials by eliminating weaknesses in the current largely manual system and providing auditable checks and balances.

For the current financial year, 30 offices within the 10 regions have been identified for computerisation. The Eastern Cape, Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga, which are now less than 50% computerised, are high priority. Subregional offices will be equipped with passport-capturing machines. We aim to allocate at least one passport-capturing station per subregion.

In moving towards an electronic system, we must ensure that we have well- trained personnel and continuous capacity-building. Consequently, the department will increasingly spend funds on Adult Basic Education and Training, and administrative functional training. Our main areas of focus are advancement of managerial and supervisory skills, and line function improvements.

Of particular note is our involvement in the Presidential Strategic Leadership Programme for all senior management. Appropriate courses have also been developed for supervisors at the intermediate and lower levels. In the field of functional training, emphasis is on equipping staff to enhance effectiveness and efficiency to prepare for the implementation of new policy initiatives, like the new immigration management system set forth in the new Immigration Act.

Turning to civic services, I would like to say that last year I indicated that my department had begun re-evaluating the present location of its network of offices, to bring services closer to the public. Various options are being evaluated, among which is the conversion of freight containers into offices, especially in remote areas. My department will look at a variety of options to reach out to our communities in rural and marginalised areas. The container project is but one option. Other options include mobile units similar to those employed by the SAPS and small buildings in certain small areas, depending on the circumstances, aiming for maximum cost effectiveness and practicality. The multipurpose centres which are rising up in many of our provinces will also contribute towards the elimination of the shortage of office accommodation.

These are interim solutions pending the complete restructuring of public affairs once the Hanis project is complete. A stronger information technology core will allow the devolution of public affairs service delivery to municipalities - a one-stop Government facility, so that our citizens may obtain identity documents, registration of births, deaths, marriage and other related certificates from various points of distribution, including municipal offices. There are also traditional authorities that have made their offices available to the Department of Home Affairs. This will redress the apartheid legacy of unequal distribution of our offices throughout South Africa.

Late registration of births has been abused by illegal foreigners to obtain South African citizenship. Screening committees were established during the year 2000 to prevent the approval of applications for late registration of births where applicants cannot substantiate their South African citizenship and where false information is furnished by foreigners who are illegally in the country.

The success rate of screening committees proved to be below expectation, as the system was still being abused. Applicants whose births were not registered have had ample time to do so. We are now investigating other forms of severe scrutiny to ensure the bona fides of each application, mindful that every South African has the constitutional right to be registered no matter how late in life he or she may choose to do so. New procedures have been implemented regarding the rectification of departmental errors in dates of births in the population register, to assist former reference book holders when applying for IDs. During 1986, with the introduction of the Identification Act, ID numbers were pre- allocated to reference book holders. As these persons’ full and correct date of birth were not on record, dates were estimated prior to 1994.

These applicants were normally elderly people who were unable to provide documents supporting their applications for a different date of birth. Applications were queried a number of times, whilst the applicant was deprived of the right to apply for social pensions and other benefits. The new procedures allow for such applicants to be interviewed by a senior official at a regional or district office, and a prescribed agreement form may be completed by both the applicant and the department.

My department is implementing the electronic document management system within Civic Services. This will implement effective, real-time, online automated document management from capture to business transaction, improving business process efficiency. The system will make Home Affairs records and archive information immediately available for access to any authorised individual at work stations in the entire system, both nationally and internationally.

Phase 1 is being implemented, comprising the implementation of a centralised core system with an associated workflow component to cater for the management of births, marriages and deaths, as well as an effective management information system within the department’s head office building. In the same building there will be a high-volume document capture module and the implementation of centralised indexing to initiate the process of existing record capturing.

Additional features are the development and implementation of a query front end with the flexibility to be decentralised; effective volatile and nonvolatile online storage to cater for a stricter legal process; a disaster recovery facility to ensure full redundancy and 24-hour availability; integration with the national population register; and the conversion and integration of the existing microfilm records to online documentation format.

The commissioning date for Phase 1 is 1 September 2002. A tender for Phase 2, comprising the rollout of the system to regional offices and the conversion of existing paper records, will be published during August 2002.

The Home Affairs National Identification System, Hanis, celebrated a significant milestone in the Basic System Commissioning on 18 February

1. The original Hanis project plan identified four phases, namely requirement definition, system design, system build and basic system commissioning. These phases were successfully completed by 18 February
2. The total expenditure until March 2002 amounted to R495 122 478.

The project’s commercial verification function will enable all interested parties to query the Hanis database and perform reliable identity verification. The function will have the potential to generate income for the National Treasury through user charges.

We are contemplating a back-record conversion to capture all the existing fingerprint data in the manual records onto the Hanis database. The quality of fingerprints and photographs is the cornerstone of this project. The department, therefore, has an intensive quality assurance programme.

Live capture will ensure quality data intake. The Electronic Document Management System will capture all forms from all processing and ensure a paperless environment. The system will cater for the archiving functions of all the systems, including Hanis.

Pending the recommendations of the Haysom Commission of Inquiry, the identity card component is still outstanding. The envisaged smart identity card will provide a common platform for the integration of Government services, centred on the verification of citizens. The department has worked with other Government departments to identify applications and integrate them into the smart identity card.

The department is liaising with the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology to ensure that the integration, through the micro databank, in the smart card is, indeed, preferable to the smart card that is merely operating as a window enabling a direct connection between a central databank and the reader. The investment in smart card technology must be in line with the best available technololgy and foreseeable developments.

The introduction of smart cards and related readers is one of our most massive technological investments, both from a financial point of view and in terms of technological distribution, and contributes towards raising our citizenry’s technological floor. Therefore, I have chosen not to rush into it, until there is consensus that we are getting the best value for our money and making the right decision. The smart identity card project will be aligned with other Government initiatives such as E-government, the gateway project and the proposed Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill.

The amount of money paid by the Hanis project in forex adjustments is R62,5 million. This shortfall, due to the devaluation of the rand, has placed stress on the Hanis budget. The National Treasury has been informed of these forex payments and the matter will be addressed in the department’s monthly reporting on the state’s expenditure, as well as in the adjustments estimate.

Turning to our second line function responsibility, the migration services, it is known that the Immigration Bill has been assented to. As I indicated during the debate on that Bill, the text had a number of errors and problematic areas, because it was drafted in haste without any assistance from my department or without interaction with officials who have knowledge and expertise in the subject.

The NCOP process could not correct these mistakes, but tried to amend the Bill further to eliminate its provisions relating to the quota system for a work permit. For various reasons, it could not get around to doing so. The standing committee stated that I should effect amendments to the Bill to correct its mistakes and deal with its unresolved policy issues.

However, no guidance was given on how these issues should be dealt with or how the Act should be amended. For this reason, I indicated in the NCOP that I am committed to implementing the Immigration Act as it was passed by the legislature. I will bring to Cabinet only those amendments which are necessary to correct aberrations such as cross-references to sections which no longer exist or unintended language created by the unjustified collapsing of various sections into one.

The Immigration Act will need to be implemented by means of extensive regulations, which we are drafting at the moment, to ensure that we can make the Immigration Act work at its best and as intended. I am committed to making the Immigration Act work in spite of its flaws. For instance, the Act does not outline the quota system, but merely prescribes that one should be developed. A number of more or less obsolete quota systems are now in force or were in force in the past in the world. Many more could be creatively conceived to adjust to our specific needs and policies.

The quota system which we will develop through regulations will seek to fulfil the desire expressed by the amendments tabled by the majority party in the NCOP. This will bring things to fruition so that we can bring the new system of migration control into operation without legislative amendments in respect of the quota system. We will try to marry the quota system with what was originally adopted by Cabinet, taking into account the statements made by our colleague, the hon the Minister of Trade and Industry, Mr Alec Erwin.

We hope to be able to publish regulations within 30 days. We are under time pressure. Once regulations define the elements of the new system of migration control, new forms will need to be designed, printed and supplied to all our offices, while training our officials in their use. Therefore, I am not in a position to indicate a clear commencement date for the new system of migration control, but my department hopes to bring it online within the next 90 days.

The Immigration Act is an enormous improvement on the present uncertainty and levels of discretion. It contains innovative solutions which place South Africa ahead of many other countries that are struggling with issues of migration without the opportunity to develop a new system from scratch, which is responsive to the needs and challenges of the 21st century.

The Act brings immigration control into compliance with the highest standards of human rights protection, as well as administrative and judiciary review, while placing South Africa on a par with many other countries in respect of many of its provisions, especially in respect of investors’ and intracompany transfer permits. We trust that as implemented through regulations, the Immigration Act will become an excellent Act. Its real final effect will, however, depend on the resources Parliament will make available for its implementation, which will be required in much greater measure than was envisaged for the Bill as approved by Cabinet. Financial resources will also have to be allocated for the possible cost of legal challenges arising out of the new Act in the initial stages of moving from the old Aliens Control Act to the new.

The Act finally makes Home Affairs responsible for all facility management at ports of entry, so as to begin dealing with the sorry state of facilities at most border posts, which are our foreign visitors’ first impression of our country. Serious upgrading is required not only of the actual entry and departure facilities, but also in respect of the improvement and erection of staff housing. Connectivity, not only in terms of computer systems, but even basic matters such as electricity, telephone and fax facilities, is sorely lacking and will need to be addressed.

The department has attempted in vain over the years to secure an increased budget to respond to the mounting pressure of our staff and infrastructure at these ports. The number of persons cleared on entry and departure at our ports of entry has grown from 19,8 million per annum in 1994 to 28,3 million per annum in 2001, an increase of 42,9%, while the staff establishment at the majority of these ports has not been amended since 1995 and no significant increase in funding of accommodation requirements has been realised.

In 1997, Cabinet approved an amount of R101 million for the upgrading of these ports of entry in terms of the erstwhile National Crime Prevention Strategy. However, divided between 53 ports, the improvements, although marked, could still not address the needs satisfactorily.

Initiatives driven by other departments such as the Departments of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, and Trade and Industry inevitably impact on my department. For example, the creation of seven transfrontier conservation areas in conjunction with our neighbouring countries is aimed at increasing tourism figures, not only for our country, but for the region as a whole, and involves the upgrading of the staff establishments and facilities at existing ports of entry within the proposed boundaries of these areas and the erection of new border posts. My department cannot cope with the increased pressure on its budget by means of reprioritising existing funds.

A further example is the creation of the Trans-Kalahari corridor, which is aimed at easing the flow of commercial traffic through Botswana to Namibia and runs through the Skilpadshek border post in the North West province. This facility is inadequate for the volume of traffic envisaged in terms of a trilateral memorandum of understanding between the three countries, and the border post has to increase its hours of service from the current two- shift operation to a three-shift 24 hour operation. Additional personnel expenditure and housing accommodation has to be provided, which was not factored into the department’s 3-year financial planning cycle.

During the 1999-2000 fiscal year the SAPS requested that my department take over the immigration function at four of the 15 border posts where the SAPS were performing functions on our behalf. Traffic volumes have increased to the extent that full-time immigration officers are now required. To date, the department has failed, due to budgetary constraints, to appoint additional staff and erect office and housing accommodation.

The events of 11 September 2001 have increased the responsibilities of my department to ensure that persons seeking entry into our country are properly screened from a security viewpoint before being admitted. Poor facilities, where the infrastructure is not conducive to the correct, swift and separate channelling of incoming and outgoing traffic create loopholes, enabling persons to enter the country without reporting to an immigration officer for the necessary checks and controls.

The Department of Public Works, in conjunction with the various roleplayers at ports of entry, has developed a repair and maintenance project, which is a specialised approach for the repair and maintenance of facilities under their control at land border posts. The estimated cost to implement this project, based on an investigation by a consultant appointed by the Department of Public Works, is R94,6 million, which is needed to bring the infrastructure at our country’s border posts up to an acceptable level to cope with the increased flow of travellers. This is to create a favourable first impression for visitors and to ensure an acceptable level of security.

Another of my department’s priorities in migration control for the current financial year is the redesigning of the movement control system to a real- time online system. The current system is outdated and can no longer cope with the volume of data to be processed, nor does it satisfy the needs of the user departments. It requires a complete rewrite.

The objective of the Movement Control System Project is to implement a centrally driven and managed system, which will function on a real-time online basis and permit immediate and simultaneous access to movement data by all ports of entry. The system should also ensure information integrity and validity pertaining to the movement of foreigners and South African residents across our borders. It should remove backlogs and current inconsistencies in movement control and enable integration between all systems and databases utilised by the Chief Directorate of Migration. The system should also introduce electronic workflow in movement control, to ensure a reduction in fraud and corruption opportunities. This project is one of the cluster priorities identified by the justice, crime prevention and security cluster, and is not merely a departmental priority. A request for information was distributed to a number of vendors to test the high level concept viability and gather detailed information regarding the most appropriate manner in which to embark on this project. The closing date for responses was 29 May 2002 and the responses received are currently being studied. The budget allocated to this project for the current year is R45 million spread over three years.

The Refugees Act has marked its second year since it came into effect on 1 April 2000. Since then the department has made great strides in rendering service to the refugee community. To reach out to both the refugee and the South African community, the department embarked on an imbizo type campaign in the latter half of 2001 that was known as the ``Refugee Road Show’’, aimed at raising awareness and interacting with the public on refugee rights. This campaign was particularly relevant as it coincided with the World Conference Against Racism and Xenophobia.

The project to eradicate the backlog of asylum claims pending since 1994 was a success, as more than 21 000 applications were finalised in the first instance. All asylum seekers who were previously on section 41 permits were issued with section 22 permits in accordance with the Refugees Act of 1998. On 1 May 2001 the first issuance of refugee identity cards to all recognised refugees as promised took place, and this was marked by ceremonies in various refugee reception centres. History will again be made this month with the first issuance of the UN Conventional Travel Document by the department.

I will now deal with the Independent Electoral Commission, whose chairperson is present here today. The commission, which is funded through the Home Affairs Vote, is in the mid-term of the national, provincial and municipal election cycles. Ward by-elections take place regularly, but the IEC will receive focused attention again as we approach the 2004 elections. Towards the middle of 2001 the IEC completed a process of assessing its permanent personnel requirements and retrenched 43% of its staff. Much of the year was spent on the establishment of systems in the areas of staff development, financial controls and asset management.

The commission advised me that, parallel with these administrative processes, a number of other significant activities have taken place. All voting stations were visited and assessed, establishing their correct geographic location and determining problems in terms of voting district limitations. The assessment and correction of problems encountered are receiving attention during the current year. Efforts to make the voters’ roll more user-friendly have received and will continue to receive attention, and alternative methods of registering voters are being considered to make it easier for voters to register or change their details on the voters’ roll, particularly in rural areas, where people live far away from municipal centres.

Another urgent project concerns the appointment and training of municipal electoral officers. The restructuring of local government after the municipal elections of 2000 has led to many of the persons who fulfilled these functions during previous elections no longer being available. Stability in this area of election delivery is critical.

The success of an election is determined well in advance of the event. The work presently done on voting stations, delimitation of voting districts and improving the quality of and access to the voters’ roll is important. Equally important is the review of the legal framework within which the next national and provincial elections will take place.

To this end the electoral task team was constituted on 9 May 2002 with the task of drafting the new electoral legislation required by the Constitution, under the chairmanship of Dr F van Zyl Slabbert. I wish to register the disquiet of the IEC about what is taking place just now in this House, ie the confusion, particularly at the level of municipalities, that is going to take place. The commission also includes Adv P Tlakula, Mr Norman du Plessis and Mr S S van der Merwe, all of the IEC; Adv R Malatji, Chief Director of Legal Services of Home Affairs; Prof Glenda Fick of the School of Law, Witwatersrand University; Prof Jorgen Elklit of the University of Aarhus; Adv Fink Haysom; Dr Wilmot James of the HSRC; Ms Dren Nupen of the Electoral Institute of SA; and Adv Tefo Raditapole, special adviser to Premier Shilowa of Gauteng. The political parties represented in Parliament have each appointed a liaison person who will interact and hold discussions with the task team, and initial meetings are being held on 11 and 12 June 2002.

A research project will focus on the experience and response of voters to the current electoral system and their involvement and understanding of electoral politics. The results will be made public at an international conference to be held as soon as possible after the research has been completed. The conference will be addressed by national and international experts on different electoral systems, highlighting their advantages and disadvantages for South Africa. It is premature to speculate whether the task team’s work will produce any fundamental shifts away from the current electoral system. The task team will be consulting extensively and will be reaching out to the relevant institutions of civil society in an open and transparent manner.

Last year I informed this House about the privatisation of the Government Printing Works. Apart from some minor glitches in the pursuance of the stated objectives, things are moving according to schedule. My department will soon embark on the next phase, which will ultimately lead to the tabling of the Government Printing Works Conversion Bill during the course of the year.

Though the Government Printing Works is part of my department, it is not subvented from voted funds and instead runs a trading account, operating on a cost recoverable basis, which presupposes that it should generate enough income to ensure continuity. However, its present scope of operation is restricted to state departments, which limits its sources of income. Its evolution into a state enterprise bereft of limitations that go with its present operational milieu will enable it to expand its operations and clientele growth, and develop to compete in the market dynamics.

I must also inform the House that aspects of my department are fraught with irregularities, due to the unfortunate breakdown in my relations with my director-general over the past two years. As he is now preparing himself to leave, more actions taken in violation of prescripts are emerging. For instance, just this morning I have been advised that he established 153 positions and filled many of them without my knowledge or approval, which makes the entire operation and related incurred expenditure unauthorised. It will take time to reconstruct proper administration, discipline and regular practices within my department after his final departure, but I am committed to bring about this necessary administrative renaissance. I consider it extremely unfortunate that while I related pleasantly with the director-general at a personal level, our working relations were fraught with so many disputes and acrimony. I have assigned matters relating to the Film and Publications Board and Film and Publications Review Board to the Deputy Minister, the hon Mrs Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula, who will deal with them.

In conclusion, I wish to extend my appreciation to the various statutory bodies falling under this Vote for their valuable work over the past year. Special thanks are extended to the members of the Immigration Selection Board and various committees of the board, whose term of office expires at the end of this month. The new Immigration Act no longer makes provision for this board and the board and committees will cease to exist.

I also wish, on this occasion, to convey my sincerest thanks to the Deputy Director-General, Mr Lambinon, and the staff of the department for their achievements despite a tremendous shortage of human and other resources. I thank all members of the department, who have had to endure working under very trying circumstances in an unfortunate working environment.

In closing, I wish to thank the parliamentary committees of both Houses of Parliament for their co-operation and work they have done with regard to the affairs of my department. I trust that we can enter into a fruitful debate.

Ngibonga kakhulu Mhlonishwa ungadinwa mangomuso, ulokhu ungithela thweshe kancane. [Thank you very much, Minister. Do not despair of keeping on briefing me.]

Mr M I SCOTT: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, hon members, it is an honour to participate in this important debate on the Home Affairs Vote. It is a great pleasure, on behalf of the portfolio committee, to thank the outgoing Director-General, Billy Masetlha, for his contribution in shaping the department to move towards delivering a world- class service. We wish him well in his next assignment. [Applause.]

I must take this opportunity to correct what other people want us to believe. In this country we have one Government. All departments are Government departments. Therefore, we strongly believe that the Home Affairs Department is a Government department, not a party department. We are committed to working with the Ministry and the department in ensuring that the department succeeds.

The Department of Home Affairs is one of those departments that interact with citizens on a daily basis. It is a mirror image of the Government to both our citizens and the foreigners passing through our borders, airports, embassies, etc. It is, indeed, an important department.

The budget for Home Affairs this year is R1,2 billion. It has four programmes, namely administration, service to citizens, migration and auxiliary and associated services. The department informs us that the money allocated to it is not enough to meet departmental needs. The department faces a number of challenges, and we do understand that it is going to be a process to effectively deal with some of those challenges. As we move towards transforming our society, we are going to face competing interests in terms of deployment of resources.

It is important for the Ministry and the department to note that the portfolio committee appreciates the work that has been done so far. It is also important that we should support the move towards a strategic direction to reposition the Home Affairs Department so as to achieve the best in service delivery.

The President, in his opening address to Parliament, called upon all departments to reduce vulnerability and to fight poverty amongst the poor. The Department of Home Affairs, in collaboration with the Department of Social Development, is critical to ensuring that the poorest of the poor in the rural areas have the necessary documents to access Government services.

We should begin to look at working together and link up in the outreach campaigns. People must feel that the Department of Home Affairs is doing everything in its power to reach out and that it is quite different from that of the olden days. This needs to go together with the change in its corporate image. The department needs to create a user-friendly environment so that when people go to Home Affairs offices they feel at home. This could be in the form of the changes introduced in police stations.

We must work towards the elimination of the common complaint of long queues and abuse by officials. Perhaps it is important for the department to adopt the attitude suggested by the President when he addressed the issue of officials who make it difficult for our people to access services. These officials have one of two choices. They either deliver, or they leave.

There is clearly a serious shortage of staff in the department when measured against staff norms. It might be important for the department to undertake re-engineering or restructuring so that it can live with what it has. However, a lasting solution lies in finding more resources for personnel. We believe that there should be an ongoing engagement with the National Treasury in this regard so as to meet the required staff needs.

We note some progress in the work towards two key projects, namely the Home Affairs National Identification System, Hanis, and the population register programmes. The Hanis project is an automated fingerprint identification system implementing an interface between office and the existing population register, using an identity card.

We are concerned that this process seems to be moving a bit more slowly than expected. This project will go a long way towards improving the department’s turnaround time in the provision of services. It will also eliminate corruption currently experienced within the system and will change people’s lives significantly. It will, definitely, allow for fast, accurate and effective identity verification. We would like to urge the department to speed up these processes, otherwise the cost of this system will continue to escalate and complicate the implementation process. The implementation of the Hanis system will also assist a great deal as we are moving towards registration for the upcoming elections in two years’ time. The portfolio committee will soon be interacting with the department to this effect.

We would like to note the slow pace in rolling out the infrastructure to rural areas with the object to make services provided by the Department of Home Affairs accessible to all our people. Home Affairs will have to be located in the multipurpose centres that are in the process of being built around the country as part of the Integrated Rural Development Strategy.

We need to see the provision of containers as a short-to-medium-term solution. A long-term solution lies in the building of offices based on a strategic infrastructure development plan of the department that still needs to be drafted.

As the process of computerisation has started, it has been demonstrated that in offices where this has happened there has been a dramatic improvement in the turnaround time in terms of services rendered. It is important to find innovative and creative ways of ensuring that all offices are computerised, including the ones in rural areas. We believe that computerisation will also contribute towards the fight against corruption and ease access to Government services.

It must be noted that the issue of immigration continues to be a topical and controversial one in the world in general and in South Africa in particular. We believe that we have taken the first step in the right direction by processing the Immigration Act last month. It might not be a perfect Act in terms of the expectations of some of the stakeholders, but we all wanted an Act which contributes to a planned system of immigration that is simple, achievable and manageable, and that is in South Africa’s interests.

Our managed immigration should contribute to the stimulation of economic growth, development and creation of jobs for South Africans. Together with the Government, we will have to evaluate, from time to time, whether it meets the intended objectives and where it does not, we will have to introduce amendments to the Act so that it can be improved.

Corruption continues to be a serious threat to the Government and also affects the image of the country. We commend the department’s fight against this scourge and the successes achieved in this regard. It is clear that we are dealing with organised crime syndicates. The department needs to look at strengthening its anticorruption unit. It is important to note that in order to ensure a total collapse of these syndicates investigations must be speeded up. The unit must find an organised way of working with the police, the Scorpions and other security agencies and utilising their resources and capacity.

In my view, we must work and engage constructively with the Ministry and department to deliver the best service for our people. Modern technology offers all of us ample opportunity to transform the Department of Home Affairs into an efficient, world-class department in terms of service delivery to our citizens and visitors.

We urge all our people to co-operate with authorities in exposing all forms of corruption and ensuring zero tolerance for corrupt officials. The ANC commits itself to working with the Ministry and department to confront all outstanding challenges. We support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr G A J GROBLER: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, hon members, the Department of Home Affairs’ aim is to protect and regulate the interests of the inhabitants of the Republic of South Africa regarding their status and identity, as well as to provide a proper service to the people. But does the department live up to these expectations?

Firstly, were enough funds asked for and allocated? Secondly, does the department have enough staff to do what is expected of it as a department dealing with so many issues that influence not only the lives of the citizens of the country, but also of the people visiting our country and potential investors?

I will concentrate on the following issue that is of great concern to the DA, namely the personnel situation. Currently over 600 posts are vacant, as we have already heard this afternoon, of which 334 are funded. The department is in the process of filling these vacancies. Many personnel and posts were lost owing to the offering of severance packages. Not only did the department lose good, qualified people, but also the posts that were occupied by these employees.

If a proper analysis is done, it becomes clear that the department is in need of, at least, between 400 and 500 employees at different levels. What are the consequences of this unhealthy situation? It is long queues, unnecessary backlogs in work, disruption of efficient service delivery and unnecessary overtime. However, I think the most important of all is low staff morale in the department. During visits to the department’s offices and in conversations with junior and senior staff members, as recently as yesterday, we came across many unhappy employees.

However, apart from the shortage of skilled personnel, the ongoing saga between the Minister and his director-general did not have a very positive effect on the workings of this department. In nine day’s time the DG’s contract will be up for renewal or whatever, nobody knows what is going on. Is there a contract? Was there a contract? Will there be a contract to be renewed? Honestly, my bet is that the Director-General will be redeployed to a nice and cosy position. However, the fact remains that this sort of behaviour was totally unacceptable for the morale of the staff in the Minister’s department.

What the DP really wants to know is: What happened to the committee that was appointed last year by the President, under the leadership of the Deputy President? This committee had to look into the problems surrounding the Director-General’s contract. There is deathly silence in that regard. Nothing happened. Maybe the ANC/New NP alliance is trying to frustrate the hon the Minister of Home Affairs. [Interjections.] We saw what happened with the Immigration Act.

I can assure the hon the Minister of Home Affairs that my assumption of the ANC/New NP alliance trying to frustrate him may not be as far-fetched as it sounds.

This junior partner, namely the NNP or No No Party will gladly participate in such a process. The Western Cape has been sacrificed and KwaZulu-Natal is the next target of this alliance. The leader of the New NP, the hon Van Schalkwyk, will do any possible Rasool ramba'' orThabo tango’’ to impress big brother while he is trying to get on the President’s rhythm.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I think the debate we are dealing with is the Home Affairs Vote. It has nothing to do with the ANC New NP alliance in the Western Cape. I think the member is out of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Allow the hon member to speak.

Mr G A J GROBLER: Do not waste my time, please!

Madam Speaker, let us look at some financial aspects of the budget, ie the budget shortfalls. The shortfall of the Hanis project of R62,5 million is acceptable and cannot be criticised. It can only be ascribed to the fluctuations in the value of the rand against other currencies.

However, what is of concern is the very different figures that are supplied in the Vote and the figures given by the department in questions regarding the Hanis project. It would be very helpful if a reasonable projection of the cost of the Hanis project could be submitted. At the moment figures for the next five years, with an estimated cost escalation of 12% per annum and the addition of the smart card, vary between R964 million and R3 000 million. The DP would not like to see the Department of Home Affairs landing in a similar situation to the other departments which were involved in the arms deal.

With regard to the implementation of the new immigration system, the financial implications of the new system were given to us by the department when the Vote was discussed. The estimated cost was R13,698 million for the 2002-03 financial year. However, what concerns the DP is that the department was not in a position to give a more definite figure about the financial implications to the department this year. It was, however, mentioned that the Department of Finance had been forewarned of the possible shortfall.

With regard to the Government Printing Works, the feasibility study on the possibility of privatising them is a positive step and is welcomed by the DP. However, I must say to the hon the Minister that if one looks at the R20 million that was owed to the Auditor-General by the ANC-controlled councils and the moneys owed to Sita, the State Information Technology Agency, the amount outstanding from the Minister’s department is very small, but still unacceptable.

On the issue of the container project, about which we saw some ideas outside, although this project might not be an ideal situation, it is a highly commendable project. It is the first step towards bringing services nearer to the people and we would like to compliment the personnel who came up with this idea.

All in all, I just want to conclude by thanking all the staff for the hard work they are doing. I mean, with the understaffing situation they are faced with now - and this has been the case for many years now - I think they are doing a tremendous job. The DP supports the Home Affairs Vote. [Applause.]

Mr K W MORWAMOCHE: Madam Speaker, hon members, let me start off by saying that what the hon Grobler said here does not hold any water.

Die agbare Mnr Grobler was lid van die destydse NP en hy het ons nog nie vertel hoekom hy daardie party verlaat het nie. [Gelag.] [The hon Mr Grobler was a member of the then NP and he has not yet told us why he left that party. [Laughter.]]

Badudi ba Afrika-Borwa ka moka, go tloga ka setopo, go fihla ka lesea, ke maloko a kgoro ye. Dikgoro ka moka mmušong wa rena ge di kgona go phethagatša mešomo ya tšona ke ka baka la thušo ya kgoro ye ka go abela batho ditokomane tša boitsebišo le disetifikeiti tša matswalo. Ge motho a nyaka go nyala goba a nyaka go phetha mošomo ofe kapa ofe, ge a se na tokomane ya boitsebišo le setifikeiti sa matswalo, ga a na seo a kago se dira.

Mošomo wo mogolo wa kgoro ye ke go iša ditirelo bathong. Seo se kgonega ka baka la bašomedi bao ba hlahlilwego go phethagatša mošomo woo. Le ge ba hlahlilwe go phethagatša mošomo, seo se tlogego se nyakega gore Motlatšatona a tiiše Tona ka sona ke botho go bašomedi ba kgoro ya gagwe.

Le ge go le bjalo Tona o swanetše go bona gore SAMDU ga e hlahle fela bašomedi ba kgoro ya gagwe bao ba lego dikantorokgolo, eupša e swanetše go hlahla le bašomedi bao ba lego dileteng le mebotwaneng ka moka gore ba tle ba kgone go phethagatša mešomo ya bona ka tshwanelo. Ke bolela bjalo ka baka la gore mathata ao setšhaba se kopanago le wona, a go šaetšega ga ditokomane tša boitsebišo, mengwaga, maina le difane gammogo le manyalo ao batho ba sa a tsebego mo ditokomaneng tša bona tša boitsebišo, a hlolwa ke bašomedi ba kgoro ye.

Batho ba bantši ge ba tshentšha ditokomane tša bona tša boitsebišo, ba makala ge di boa le maina a gore ba nyetšwe etšwe ba sa tsebe le gore menyanya ya ntshe e bile kae, neng. Re leboga ge mohlomphegi Tona a kgonne go oketša bašomedi ba kgoro ya gagwe gomme ba bile ba kgona go akgofiša modiro wa go tšweletša ditokomane tša boitsebišo, go akaretšwa le disetifikeiti tša matswalo, manyalo le mahu.

Mokgwa wo kgoro e o šomišago go thuša setšhaba ka dipaseporoto ka dikhomphutha ke wa maemo a godimo ka kudu. Dikhomputha tša dilete le mebotwana di kgokagantšwe le tša dikantorokgolo tša kgoro gomme seo se potlakiša morero wa go hwetšagala ga dipaseporoto gabonolo. Le ge go le bjalo Tona o swanetše go bona gore diprofense tše bjalo ka boLimpopo di ikamanya le mellwane ya bjale ya mebasepala.

Ka Limpopo go na le mafelo a mane a dilete ao a nago le madirelo a dikhomphutha godimo ga a selelago. Dilete tša gaSekhukhune le Bushbuckridge ga di na madirelo a mohuta woo. Selete sa gaSekhukhune se na le mafelo a mararo a go goroša ditirelo – e lego Sekhukhune, Praktiseer le Nebo - eupša Tona o swanetše go lemoga gore mafelo ao ga a na madirelo a dikhomphutha. Mafelong ao go ngwalwa disetifikeiti ka matsogo gomme tša išwa Lebowakgomo, e lego lefelo le lengwe la go goroša ditirelo leo le lego ka tlase ga selete sa Polokwane. Gona fao Lebowakgomo go na le dikhomphutha tša go feta tše tlhano. Ke dira boipiletšo go Tona gore setšhaba se se ke sa tloga mafelong ao ke a boletšego se latelela disetifikeiti go la Lebowakgomo, leo le welago tlase ga selete sa Polokwane. Ge mafelo a mararo ao ke a boletšego a ka hwetša dikhomputha go tšwa go la Lebowakgomo, setšhaba se ka se hlwe se sepela tsela ye telele go latelela ditirelo.

Re leboga mebušo ya diprofense tša Limpopo le KwaZulu-Natal ge e tšere matsapa go thuša kgoro ye ka go tlabakela diofisi tša mešate ka dikhomphutha gore setšhaba se se ke sa hlwa se latelela ditirelo kgole. Ke dira boipiletšo go mohlomphegi Tona gore go ke go be bjalo le diprofenseng tše dingwe ka moka gobane seo se tlo thuša gore setšhaba se holege gomme batho ba kgone go bona gore Mmušo wo wa ANC o iša ditirelo bathong.

Ditirelo tša go thetha tšeo di tšweletšwago ke kgoro di a šoma, eupsa mathata a tšona ke a latelago: Bašomedi ba kgoro ya mohlomphegi Tona ba gapeletšega go tloga lefelong le bjalo ka Polokwane ba e ya go šoma lefelong le bjalo ka Strydom Tunnel, elego leeto la dikhilomithara tše makgolo a mararo. Ge ba tlogile ka iri ya seswai mesong ba tlo fihla ka iri ya lesomepedi mosegare wa sekgalela. Ka morago ga iri ya pele ba gapeletšega gore ba fetše mošomo gomme ba phuthaphuthe ka ge ba swanetše go boela morago diofising gore ba ye go tšhaiša ka nako, gobane ba ngongorega ka la gore kgoro ye ga e ba fe diputseletšo tša ka morago ga nako ya mošomo.

Re leboga kgoro ye ge e tlo thuša masorong a go tsena le go tšwa ka mono nageng, e lego a go swana boMakgobistad, Beit Bridge le Golela ka go oketša bašomedi ba yona. Seo se thuša gore setšhaba se holege, batho ba se ke ba tseya nako e telele ba eme mellwaneng ya naga ya rena. Le ge go le bjalo, mohlomphegi Tona a ka boledišana le badirišane ka yena ka ga lebaka leo. Kua Golela bašomedi ba kgoro ya gagwe ba šomiša dijenereitha gobane mehlagase ya gona ga e šome gabotse. Seo ga se beye Mmuso wa rena wa Afrika Borwa maemong a mabotse.

Lebakeng la ge maloko a Komiti ya Phothofolio ya tša Selegae a be a etetše dilete tša SADC a hweditše gore mohlomphegi Tona o tloge a phetha mošomo wo mobotse ka go ikopanya le badirišane ka yena ba Mozambique. Taba yeo ke mokgwa wo mokaone wo laetšago gore Afrika Borwa e beya Nepad maemong a godimo kudu, ga e e beye go seo motho a se dirago ge a hloka nako. Re re Tona a sware bjalo a tiiše gomme a fele a ikopanya le badirišane ka yena ba mafase a kantle go boledišana ka mekgwa ya Kgoro ye ya tša Selegae.

Mabapi le masoro a mellwane go la Kapa-Bohlabela, ao Tona a swaile ka ga wona, moo go šomago maphodisa, re re a leke ka mo a ka kgonago ka gona gore mafelo ao a šomišwe ke bašomedi ba kgoro ya gagwe bjalo ka ge ba hlahlilwe go dira mošomo woo, e sego maphodisa gobane maphodisa a na le mošomo wo a lebanego le wona. Go ka ba kaone ge a ka thuša mephato ya go lwantšha tirišo ya tsogo-le-kobong mo mmušong gore e kgone go phethagatša mošomo ka tshwanelo.

Ke rata go ruma ka go leboga batlhankedi ba kgoro ya mohlomphegi Tona ka mo ba šomelago setšhaba ka gona. Le ge mašeleng a sa lekane, ba lekile ka mešo- ye-go-fela go fa setšhaba ditirelo. Nnete-gona: Serokolwana se senyenyane se ikokeletša ka monkgo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[All the citizens of South Africa, from a corpse to a new-born baby, are members of this department. All our Government departments are able to fulfil their functions because of the help that they get from this department, which issues individuals with identity documents and birth certificates. When a person wishes to get married or to do anything whatsoever, and he or she does not have an identity document, he or she will not be able to do so.

The most important task of this department is to deliver services to the people. This is accomplished by public servants who are trained specifically for this purpose. Even though they are trained, it will still be necessary for the Deputy Minister to assist the Minister in ensuring that there is a culture of ``botho’’ (ubuntu) in his department.

However, the Minister must also ensure that SAMDU not only trains the employees of his department who are deployed in offices that serve major cities, but that public servants who serve outlying areas are also trained so that they may perform their duties properly. What makes me say this is the fact that the problems that people encounter, such as inaccurate identity documents, wrong ages, wrong names and surnames and inaccurate marriage documents, are caused by the employees of this department.

Many people, when they apply for identity documents, are surprised when they receive identity documents that indicate that they are married, when they have no idea where or how the ceremonies took place. We are grateful that the Minister has been able to increase the number of employees in his department and that they are now able to speed up the issuing of identity documents, including certificates of birth, marriage and death.

The system that this department uses of issuing passports to the people using computers is of an exceptionally high standard. The computers used in major cities as well as in outlying areas are all interlinked, and this simplifies and accelerates the processing of applications for passports. However, the Minister still needs to ensure that provinces such as Limpopo subscribe to the latest municipal boundaries.

In Limpopo there are four districts that have more than six computers. The districts of Sekhukhune and Bushbuckridge do have such facilities. The district of Sekhukhune has three service delivery points, namely Sekhukhune, Praktiseer and Nebo. However, the Minister must note that those service delivery points do not have computers. In these areas certificates are written by hand and sent to Lebowakgomo, which is another service delivery point that falls under Polokwane. In Lebowakgomo there are more than five computers. I would like to appeal to the Minister to see to it that the community no longer has to go to Lebowakgomo, which falls under the district of Polokwane, to collect their certificates. If the three districts that I have mentioned can get computers from Lebowakgomo, the community will no longer have to travel long distances in order to access these services.

We are grateful to the provinces of Limpopo and KwaZulu-Natal for taking action to assist this department by providing offices in their headquarters with computers so that the public no longer have to walk long distances to access these services. I would like to appeal to the hon the Minister to ensure that this happens in all other provinces because that will benefit the public and the people will see that the ANC-led Government delivers services to the people where they live.

The mobile services that are rendered by the department are working well, except for the following problem: Workers of the hon the Minister’s department are compelled to go from an area such as Polokwane to work in an area such as the Strydom Tunnel, which is 300 kilometres away. If they leave Polokwane at 9 in the morning, they get there at 12 midday. After 1 o’clock, they are compelled to stop work and collect their stuff and head back to their offices because they are complaining that the department does not pay them for working overtime.

We are grateful that the department is going to assist in controlling our border posts in places such as Makgobistad, Beit Bridge and Golela by increasing the number of its officials. This will benefit the public, and people will no longer have to queue for a long time at our border posts. However, the Minister still needs to discuss this issue with his colleagues. At Golela, officials of his department are using generators because the electricity in that area is faulty. This is not a good reflection on our South African Government.

When the members of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs were touring the SADC countries, they noted that the hon the Minister is doing a good job by keeping in touch with his counterpart in Mozambique. This is a good practice and it indicates that South Africa is giving Nepad top priority. It does not treat it as something to do when there is time to spare. We encourage the hon the Minister to keep this up and to continue consulting with his counterparts in neighbouring countries to discuss the work of the Department of Home Affairs.

Concerning border posts in the Northern Cape, to which the hon the Minister referred, and which are manned by police officers, we recommend that he must do everything in his power to ensure that they are also manned by officials of his department, since they are trained to perform this task. It would be a good thing if he could help the forces that are fighting corruption in the Public Service so that the Public Service can do its work properly.

I would like to conclude by thanking the officials of the department of the hon the Minister for the manner in which they serve the public. Even though they are not paid that well, they have done their level best, day in and day out, to deliver services to the public. It is true that actions speak louder than words.]

Mnr I J PRETORIUS: Mevrou die Speaker, ek wil begin deur aan die agb Minister te sê, volgens mnr Grobler het ons nou so ‘n komplot teen hom. Ek wil net vir hom sê, as ek deel wil wees van ‘n komplot, sal ek baie meer subtiel wees. Hy het sommer twak gepraat. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die Departement van Binnelandse Sake speel ‘n baie belangrike rol in die lewe van elke Suid-Afrikaner. Ek wil vandag graag fokus op ‘n paar aspekte van die lynfunksies van dié departement, wat ook deur ander kollegas gedoen is. Ek probeer dit so min as moontlik herhaal, naamlik oor die begroting, doeltreffende dienslewering en die kiesstelsel.

Elkeen van ons kry op die een of ander stadium met die departement te doen deurdat mens aansoek doen vir ‘n identiteitsdokument, ‘n geboortesertifikaat, ‘n huweliksertifikaat of ‘n paspoort. Dit is dus die departement waarmee elkeen van ons die meeste kontak maak. Doeltreffendheid behoort dus die Departement van Binnelandse Sake se hoofleuse te wees en dit is inderdaad ook waarna hulle na my mening strewe.

In die proses wil ek graag baie dankie sê en hulde bring aan die duisende amptenare, ook dié amptenare wat LPs behulpsaam is met kiesersvertoë. Ons waardeer die doeltreffende diens wat aan die publiek gelewer word.

Dié departement het egter een baie groot probleem en dit is die kwessie van te min geld. Die doeltreffendheid van die departement word geaffekteer deur die feit dat daar te min geld aan die Minister en sy departement gegee word. Ek het bietjie die begroting nagegaan en gevind dat daar nie minder as 16 departemente is wat meer geld as Binnelandse Sake ontvang. En dan het ek nog die R208 miljoen wat die OVK kry, ook bygetel by hierdie bedrag van R1,2 miljard.

Die min geld wat die departement ontvang, affekteer ook die personeelsituasie. Daar is op tans 734 vakante poste en die huidige begroting maak slegs voorsiening vir 234. Meer as 600 mense moet nog aangestel word. Die huidige direkteur-generaal het gesê, `` to render a world class service while operating with an 89% staff establishment is almost impossible’’. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr I J PRETORIUS: Madam Speaker, I want to start by telling the hon the Minister that, according to Mr Grobler, we now have this plot against him. I just want to tell him that if I wanted to be part of a plot, I would be a lot more subtle. He was just talking nonsense. [Interjections.]

The Department of Home Affairs plays a very important part in the life of every South African. Today I would like to focus on a few aspects of the line functions of this department, which other colleagues have also done. I will try to repeat as little as possible, in talking about the budget, effective service delivery and the electoral system.

Every one of us has to deal with the department at some stage or another, because one has to apply for an identity document, a birth certificate, a marriage certificate or a passport. This is therefore the department with which all of us have the most contact. Effectiveness should therefore be the watchword motto of the Department of Home Affairs and to my mind that is indeed what they are striving for.

In the process I would like to thank most sincerely and pay tribute to the thousands of officials, including those officials who assist MPs with voters representations. We appreciate the effective service that is being rendered to the public.

This department has one very big problem, however, and that is the issue of too little money. The department’s effectiveness is being affected by the fact that too little money is given to the Minister and his department. I inspected the budget and found that no fewer than 16 departments receive more money than Home Affairs does. And that was after I had added the R208 million which the IEC receives to this amount of R1,2 billion.

The small amount of money received by the department is also affecting the staff situation.

At present there are 734 vacant posts, while the current budget only makes provision for 234. More than 600 people have yet to be appointed. The current Director-General has said, ``to render a world-class service while operating with an 89% staff establishment is almost impossible’’.]

I sincerely hope that the Minister of Finance, Trevor Manuel, will reassess the situation and allocate more funds to the Department of Home Affairs. I think the department has taken a very proactive step with the strategic planning section. I hope that that will enable the department to receive more funds.

The implementation of the new Immigration Bill will also exert more pressure on the department in respect of staff and money. A new approach and a new allocation of more funds is of critical importance for the delivery of effective services to the public.

At the same time, the need for the necessary upgrading and renovation of existing office accommodation requires urgent attention. I must, however, congratulate the department on the initiative taken in co-operation with a private company to enter into an agreement to provide 100 freight containers which will serve as offices, especially in the most remote rural areas of South Africa.

‘n Ander saak wat ek graag wil aanraak, is die uitbreiding van die departement se diens aan die kiesers deur stadsrade daarby te betrek. Die Minister het verlede jaar aangekondig dat stadsrade op ‘n agentskapsbasis betrek sal word. Op hierdie stadium het hierdie aangeleentheid nog nie al die aandag ontvang wat dit behoort te kry nie. Indien bogemelde plan in werking gestel sou word, glo ek dat die departement se diens aan die onderskeie gemeenskappe geweldig uitgebrei kan word. Daar is mos geen dorp of stad in hierdie land van ons waar daar nie ‘n kantoor van die stadsraad bestaan nie. Ek wil dus ‘n beroep doen op die Minister en sy departement om hierdie onderhandelinge met stadsrade deur te voer, sodat ons dan die resultaat kan kry van beter diens aan al ons mense.

‘n Ander aangeleentheid wat ek wil aanspreek is die kwessie van die deurlopende registrasie en herregistrasie van kiesers. Volgens Nuwe NP- navorsing het die getal geregistreerde kiesers gedurende die afgelope jaar met ongeveer 130 000 landwyd gedaal. Die OVK moet natuurlik daarvoor vader staan, maar die Minister van Binnelandse Sake is ongelukkig die persoon wat vir hulle doen en late vader staan. Ek is ook van mening dat ons dan met nuwe oë moet kyk na ‘n nuwe stelsel van registrasie van kiesers. Dit is nie nodig dat ‘n kieser by ‘n kantoor gaan registreer nie, daar is ook ‘n alternatiewe metode. In die Wes-Kaap het ons gedurende 1999-2000 letterlik duisende kiesers deur middel van tuisregistrasie bereik. Indien dit onder behoorlike toesig geskied, glo ek dat dit ‘n manier is om ons probleem op te los, veral van die baie mense wat nie die moeite doen om na ‘n kantoor te gaan om te registreer nie.

‘n Situasie waarna ek ook verder wil verwys - en dit is my laaste onderwerp

• is die kwessie van ‘n kiesstelsel. Daar is tans ‘n ondersoek aan die gang, of Dr Van Zyl Slabbert is besig met gesprekke met partye, maar na my beskeie mening, omdat die Nuwe NP nog nie sy eie finale voorstel geformuleer het nie, kan ek vandag my persoonlike mening gee. Ek glo nie die tyd is ryp vir ‘n verandering van die huidige kiesstelsel nie. Met die onderhandelinge vir die finale Grondwet in 1995 het die NP ander opsies oorweeg, maar het uiteindelik besluit om die proporsionele stelsel te ondersteun. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Een van die belangrikste redes - kefkef maar aan hierdie kant, ek gaan aan met my toespraak - waarom ek ‘n voorstander van die huidige stelsel is, is omdat dit maklik en eenvoudig is om te bemark. Daar is 50 000 kiesers nodig om ‘n lid verkies te kry tot hierdie Parlement en dus kan feitlik alle groeperings verteenwoordiging in die Parlement kry. Dit is tot voordeel van ‘n ontwikkelende demokrasie dat die verskillende groeperings ‘n geleentheid kry om in die hoogste raadsaal van die land politieke stoom af te blaas. Kom ons neem nou maar die AEB en Azapo - dan kry hulle ook ‘n kans om bietjie politieke stoom af te blaas.

In ‘n ontwikkelende land soos Suid-Afrika verg die vestiging van ‘n demokratiese bestel baie tyd om te groei en te ontwikkel. Daar is ook ‘n internasionale tendens dat daar wegbeweeg word van ‘n kiesafdelingstelsel. Die gesprek is aan die gang en ons gaan graag daaraan deelneem.

Ten slotte wil ek aan die agb Minister, die uittredende direkteur-generaal en ander senior amptenare baie dankie sê vir hulle diens. Die Nuwe NP steun hierdie begrotingspos. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Another issue that I would like to touch on is the extension of the department’s services to the voters by involving town councils. Last year the Minister announced that town councils would be involved on an agency basis. At this stage this matter has not yet received all the attention it should be getting. If the above-mentioned plan were to be put into effect, I believe that the department’s services to the respective communities could be expanded tremendously. After all, there is not a village or a town in this country of ours in which an office of the town council does not exist. I therefore want to appeal to the Minister and his department to conclude these negotiations with town councils so that we can see the result of a better service for all our people.

Another matter that I want to discuss is the ongoing registration and reregistration of voters. According to New NP research, the number of registered voters has decreased by about 130 000 throughout the country over the past year. Of course the IEC must take responsibility for this, but unfortunately the Minister of Home Affairs is the person responsible for their actions. I am also of the opinion that we should therefore take another look at a new system of voter registration. It is not necessary for a voter to go and register at an office, there is an alternative method as well. In the Western Cape we reached literally thousands of voters by way of home registration during 1999-2000. If this is done with proper supervision, I believe that this is a way to solve our problem, especially as regards the many people who do not take the trouble to go to an office to register.

A matter that I would also like to refer to - and this is my last subject - is the issue of an electoral system. At present research is being carried out, or Dr van Zyl Slabbert is engaged in talks with parties, but in my humble opinion, because the New NP has not yet formulated its own final proposal, I can give my personal opinion today. I do not believe the time is right for a change in the current electoral system. During the negotiations for the final Constitution in 1995 the NP considered other options, but eventually decided to support the proportional system. [Interjections.]

One of the most important reasons - carry on yapping over there, I will continue with my speech - why I am a supporter of the present system is because it is simple and easy to market. Fifty thousand voters are needed to elect a member to this Parliament and therefore practically all groupings can attain representation in Parliament. It is to the advantage of a developing democracy that the various groupings get the opportunity to let off political steam in the highest chamber in the land. Take the AEB and Azapo - they also get a chance to let off some political steam.

In a developing country such as South Africa the establishment of a democratic dispensation takes a lot of time to grow and develop. There is also an international trend to move away from a constituency system. Talks are taking place and we will gladly participate in them.

In conclusion I would to thank the hon the Minister, the outgoing Director- General and other senior officials most sincerely for their services. The New NP supports this Vote. [Applause.]]

Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, every person in South Africa is a client of the Department of Home Affairs. It is a lifelong relationship, from issuing a birth certificate to registering a death.

Many other state departments also have a relationship with the Department of Home Affairs. This is reflected in the department’s participation in five of the clusters of the Forum of South African Directors-General. The department plays a vital role in contributing towards the successes of other departments in service delivery. It is virtually impossible for the Department of Social Development to pay out social grants to those who qualify for them if the Department of Home Affairs does not perform its civic service duties.

For the past two years, during every budget debate on Home Affairs, the UDM has expressed its concern regarding the inadequate funding of the Department of Home Affairs. In fact, for the past two years it has been impossible for the UDM to support the Vote of the Department of Home Affairs. This was because we felt strongly that the department would not be able to meet its obligations or provide an adequate service because of financial constraints. This year, there has been somewhat of a financial improvement, though we believe it is still inadequate. The department is currently engaged in the implementation of two new systems. The population register is being rewritten and a document management system associated with it will be developed. The second is the Hanis system. In January 1996, Cabinet approved the Hanis system. The implementation of this system is one of the biggest challenges facing the department. It is also the single greatest cost factor in the department.

The UDM remains sceptical about the wisdom, not of the Hanis system, but of the associated smartcard that will be implemented with the system. Already, the early stages of the implementation of the Hanis system has resulted in a R65 million overexpenditure of the estimated cost of R1 billion over five years. This figure does not include the smartcard option. In reply to a question, the Minister indicated that an additional amount of R2 to R3 billion would probably be needed to fund the smartcard option. This is equal to the department’s current budget for two to three years.

We need to give the smartcard issue some air. Too many questions arise around it with too few answers. If we are not going to see increased transparency regarding the smartcard option - the reason to choose it, the need for it and its utilisation - suspicion will, understandably and justifiably, grow.

I have argued before that South Africa does not need such an extravagant system, and that our country can ill-afford it with other more pertinent priorities glaring at us. The UDM still holds this view, and we want to caution that we should be careful of repeating the arms deal scandal in the Department of Home Affairs.

The department is functioning with only 89% of its staff component, as determined way back in 1995 by the Public Service Commission. We have heard of the number of positions vacant and the number funded. The situation is totally and completely untenable. The UDM supports calls by the portfolio committee that the department should urgently determine the staff component required, and then actively fill those positions. However, I would be failing in my oversight duties if I did not bring to the House’s attention the glaring misappropriation and discrepancies in the utilisation of available staff.

This is clearly demonstrated at our ports of entry. The department provided the portfolio committee with an overview per province of the state of infrastructure and human resources at each port of entry. Clearly, from the information provided, there is a disproportionate distribution of staff in relation to the number of travellers per week that pass through that port of entry.

As an example, in Mpumalanga, at Mahamba, there are 25 posts. Currently, six posts are vacant, which brings the number to 19, but then there are four people on loan from other establishments, which means 23 posts are filled. The number of travellers passing through the port of entry per week is 360. That means there is a 1:13 ration between Department of Home Affairs officials and travellers per week. That is less than two travellers per day per official.

If we go to Van Rooyen’s Gate in the Free State, there are 22 posts with three vacancies, which means there are 19 officials, and yet we find that 29 500 travellers pass through per week. This is a ratio of 1:1 553. This is more than 220 travellers per day per official. This surely is a mismanagement of the human resources that are available. There are many more examples, at other ports of entry, of such discrepancies.

There are many other issues that I would like to touch on, but time does not allow me to do so. We would like to congratulate the department on the container project that will bring service closer to the people. We need to ensure that this will be treated as a temporary arrangement, and that a more permanent solution is implemented. We would also like to caution other departments to take cognisance of the effect that their decisions have on the workload of this department. The transfrontier parks, for example, increase the pressure on the department. Money must be made available. The same goes for the appointment of the Van Zyl Slabbert Commission, and its inadequate funding.

I would like to thank the Minister, the Deputy Minister, the chairperson, Mr Scott, and the officials of the department. The UDM will support the Bill.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, hon Dr Buthelezi, the Minister of Home Affairs, hon members, it is indeed a great pleasure and honour for me to address the House for the first time since my appointment as Deputy Minister of Home Affairs. I would like to mention that the process of settling into my new duties has been made easy by the firm foundation that had already been laid within the department.

The challenges that we face in our work have been clearly identified, and having studied them, I can assure the House that they are by no means minute. The warm welcome and support expressed by Minister Buthelezi has meant a lot to me, and I have, in turn, offered my unqualified support and co-operation as we work together to address these challenges in the course of transforming our country and the department. I have also been assured of the commitment and support of the director-general, senior management and staff of the department.

We speak to hon members on the occasion of the discussion of the Vote in the National Assembly to outline how our department plans to deploy resources towards the realisation of the central theme of Government for the year, of ``lending a caring hand to push back the frontiers of poverty’’. In line with this overarching theme, based on compassion, the principle of Batho Pele, and good governance, we have plans to strengthen our efforts to ensure that the Department of Home Affairs becomes a real home for every South African and visitor to our shores and that it will be a place that represents all that our people expect and deserve of services offered by our Government. Without fearing that we will have to eat our words, we promise the public that our offices will cause them fewer frustrations and that we will continue to improve our systems to serve them more efficiently.

In his speech earlier, the hon the Minister announced some of the measures we are putting in place to improve the systems. Service delivery imperatives are foremost when considering prescribed Home Affairs functions. The entire South African population is a client of the department and this literally means a life-long association, from the issuing of a birth certificate to the registration of a death.

Likewise, the entry and exit of all non-South Africans who, for various reasons, visit the country is managed by this department. Few, if any, other public and private organisations operate within the realm of such a vast clientele. Therefore, apart from deriving our mandate from the citizenry and being ultimately accountable to them, they are, at the same time, our clients with fair expectations regarding the content and quality of the service we provide.

A strategic planning workshop, which was appropriately named ``Farinani’’, which literally means holding one another, was held in January to February, and is indicative of our co-operative spirit of joining hands across all historical divides and engaging to overcome the great challenges of the future. It is important that the spirit of this theme is reflected in the manner in which we offer our services and in the implementation of our programmes beyond the planning session. This will inform our work as we give practical expression to the specific outcomes of the strategic planning workshop.

Some of the hon members might be aware of the touching story of Zanethemba Dinizulu who, because he had been homeless, was not registered on the population register although he had already turned 18 years of age. According to our laws, he did not exist and he was without an identity document. Before he joined an organisation called Streetwise Universe, he had been on the streets and was seen as an insignificant homeless child. After his talent as a soccer player was spotted, he rose to stardom and was invited to the World Sports Awards in Monte Carlo. [Applause.]

Without the intervention of Home Affairs, this young patriot who did not have an identity document and passport would not have made the trip. Today, he is a proud citizen who flies the South African flag. Zanethemba and many of his friends at Streetwise Universe are here today with us. Those are street children whom we have gathered from the streets of Cape Town and they are not registered as citizens of this country, apart from Zanethemba. The challenge is for all of us to go out and make sure that those children are registered and fed by our Government. [Applause.]

This story illustrates and supports our view that proper documentation and registration of citizens gives them the key that is necessary to unlock benefits and services due to them from the state and opportunities in life. We see our role as that of providing every South African with that key. It is important for all South Africans to feel proud of their identity as citizens of the country. It would be wrong if any one of them was denied that right.

Our President has expressed concern that more than three million children who qualify for child support grants cannot access them because they are not properly registered with authorities. Millions of aged persons are still not able to receive their pension grants as they do not possess any identity document. Such is the case with many disabled and incapacitated members of our society. As public representatives and Government officials that are gathered here, how can we sleep at night when, due to an administrative glitch, these children go to bed hungry, suffer malnutrition and die of curable diseases? How do we face the many who are like Zanethemba there and who sleep in our streets, absorb the biting chill and endure the scorn of being nameless second-class citizens whose existence is not recognised?

Because we understand the need to provide every South African with an ID that they can be proud of, I will announce in the next few days a campaign that we have chosen to call: Mobilise the nation and feed the children. [Applause.] Through that campaign, we will mobilise all members of civil society, churches, women’s clubs, youth organisations, etc in order to find all the affected people and get them to register. We have already established a think-tank comprised of representatives of civil society to facilitate consultation on this campaign. We have also invited other Government departments, such as the Department of Social Development, whose work is affected by this problem. We need them to work closely with us for the benefit of our people. We will join some of their current initiatives as we reach out to far-flung areas where it is not easy to commute to a Home Affairs office to get registered. Further plans on the roll-out of this programme will be announced in the coming days.

We will also launch another campaign that seeks to address the difficult issue of xenophobia and the intolerance of other fellow Africans by certain sections of our society. Not only should we detest xenophobia because of the contribution of other nations in our own struggle, but we need to eradicate it because it is wrong, prejudiced, violent and racist. The hatred for and harassment of non-South Africans, particularly those from the rest of the African continent, flies in the face of efforts to foster unity amongst Africans and the spirit of Nepad.

We cannot and dare not, as South Africans, espouse a general attitude that says: All that is foreign is bad and all non-South Africans are criminals who have come to squander the resources of our country. Of course, there are bad elements, but they are few. Some of these people are refugees from conflicts and socioeconomically depressed countries. They have come to our country because they share our view that South Africa is a beacon of hope. Many of these non-South Africans come from countries which had invested heavily in the area of education after their independence from colonialism. As a result, they have an oversupply of skills that South Africans need to tap into. Most of them are willing to work alongside us to assist us to rebuild our country. We are making a call on all such non-South Africans to work with the people of South Africa to seek and isolate the small group that compromises the position of immigrants in the country through their illegal activities.

Again, with the co-operation of civil society and institutions such as the Human Rights Commission, we will conduct a public awareness education campaign to educate society about the ills and dangers of xenophobia. We will also ensure that all non-South Africans, who have satisfied our requirements, should feel welcome in the country and that they understand both their rights and their obligations which, amongst others, is the rule of law in this country. While we mobilise the nation against xenophobia, I will re-emphasise that every non-South African who comes to our country should do so legally, and must be willing to respect our Constitution and live by the laws of this country. I am also calling upon the international organisation of foreigners to stop raising their concerns through marches in the streets as we have opened the door for them to engage with us. I have issued an open invitation to them to engage with me on their issues so that the department can get the opportunity to investigate their allegations and seek solutions together with them.

At a meeting held with regional directors, one of the areas of concern that was raised was the issue of ports of entry, which has been discussed and raised with the Minister and which he attended to in his speech. As indicated by the Minister as well, the Film and Publications Board, and the Film and Publications Review Board are funded by Home Affairs. Apart from its core mandate, the board plays a crucial role in combating child pornography and the problem of illegal products, especially pirate versions of films and interactive computer games.

We will pay adequate attention to the issue of child pornography because it eats away into the fibre of our society, and the need to protect our children. We are aware of very senior people, both in the public and the private sector, who indulge themselves in the practice of child pornography through the Internet. Our warning to them is that they have now been unmasked. It is only a matter of time before we reach them. Society cannot tolerate their kind any more. Serious action will be taken against them in accordance with the law.

In the past weeks, public concern has been raised about Mr Mbongeni Ngema’s song: Amandiya, and particularly its lyrics. Having personally listened to the song, I have decided to refer this matter to the Film and Publications Board to investigate and advise us on how we should deal with this matter in terms of the laws that regulate areas of publication. [Applause.] Our concern is that although every citizen has the right to freedom of expression and room for artistic creativity, South Africa cannot afford to publicise material that encourages the racial polarisation of our society.

Let me reiterate, however, that South Africa’s challenge is now to get everyone behind the enormous task of nation-building. It is, therefore, our appeal that as people compose songs and other works of art, they need to express that which will contribute to the building of a nonracial and nonsexist society. Our democratic South Africa needs to go beyond just lamenting our problems so that we can seek and find solutions together.

We have received briefings about the work of the Government Printing Works, including progress made on the issue of restructuring and repositioning this utility. During the term of my predecessor, some work had already been started in this area. We will make announcements soon about how we will take forward that process, once we have studied all the relevant information at our disposal. We urge the public, however, to exercise some patience on the pace of the process, given its sensitive nature. The Government Printing Works is an important Government entity and any decisions about its operations are required to be well calculated and well informed. As hon members might know, the Government Printing Works is where important documents such as IDs and passports are printed. Thus, it is an essential security installation.

We will continue to come to this House to report on specific things that we are doing to realise the programme framework that we have presented to the members today. I would like to thank the chairperson of the portfolio committee for having helped me in the process of getting acquainted with my new work. We are certain that the portfolio committee will hold us accountable to the public in ensuring that the programmes and targets outlined above become a reality.

Once more, I want to thank the entire staff of Home Affairs, the Director- General, Mr Masetlha, the Deputy Director-General, Mr Lambinon, and the human resource people for ensuring that all my needs were met in the department within a very short period of time. [Applause.]

Nkskz C I GCINA: Mhlalingaphambili, uMphathiswa wethu obekekileyo namalungu ale Ndlu, kwiminyaka emithathu edlulileyo abemi beli lizwe, nenkoliso yabo ibingabantu abahluphekileyo, bathi basinika igunya lokwenza impilo yabo ibe ngcono. Ngoko ke, kuyo yonke into esiyenzayo singamalungu ale Ndlu kufuneka singayilibalanga loo nto.

Kuluvuyo nemincili kum namhlanje, njengokuba ndiza kuthabatha inxaxheba kule ngxoxo-mpikiswano engoHlahlo Lwabiwo-mali lweSebe leMicimbi yezeKhaya. Ndifuna ukugxininisa ukuba eli kuphela kwesebe, kula masebe kaRhulumente, elithi lijongane nommi ngamnye weli lizwe ukususela kusuku lwakhe lokuqala de aye kungena engcwabeni.

Intetho yam iza kugxininisa ekuzisweni kweenkonzo zeSebe leMicimbi yezeKhaya kufutshane nabantu, ngakumbi kwiindawo ezisemaphandleni nakwiidolophana ezincinane. Imiba enxulumene neencwadi-zazisi kunye neziqinisekiso zokuzalwa siyazi ngokubaluleka kwayo. Into endiyicelayo yeyokuba iSebe lifake iikhonteyna eziza kuba ziiofisi emaphandleni, apho abantu baya kuthi benzelwe khona izazisi neziqinisekiso zokuzalwa.

Zifuneka kakhulu ezi ofisi kuba abantu bahamba imigama emide xa besiya kwenza izicelo zezi zinto yaye abaninzi abanayo imali yokuya kufikelela kwiindawo abanokwenza kuzo izicelo. Sikhe saya kwindawo enjengeSt Albans neWitteklip, safumanisa ukuba abantu abaninzi bezi ndawo abaphangeli. Kungoko ndibongoza iSebe leMicimbi yezeKhaya ukuba ligxumeke ezi khonteyna ukuze abantu babe nokufikelela lula kuzo. Ezi zinto ziza kufuneka kakhulu kula maphandle, ngakumbi njengokuba silungiselela unyulo oluzayo. Amaninzi kuwo anawo umbane, nto leyo engenza kube lula ukuba zibe zingasetyenziswa xa zinokugxunyekwa. Yonke le nto siyicelayo, siyicela sifuna ukuba, ethubeni, kwakhiwe ezinkulu, eziza kudala nentsebenzo kubantu bazo.

Sizama nokubulela, ngakumbi kookumkani, iinkosi nezibonda ezithe zavula izandla zazo, zanceda abantu ngezi zazisi. Ndinqwenela ukwenza isicelo kuzo zonke iikumkani, iinkosi, izibonda kunye nabanini zifama ukuba bancedisane neSebe ekuqinisekiseni ukuba wonke umntu ohlala kwiindawo abazilawulayo aye kwii-ofisi zeli Sebe ukuze afumane iziqinisekiso zakhe zobume beli lizwe.

Siyabulela, sivuya kakhulu, ngakumbi kwiSebe noMphathiswa obekekileyo, ngokuba siyitsala le dyokhwe. Nabantu bethu ekhaya mabasincedise. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa speech follows.)

[Mrs C I GCINA: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members of this House, in the last three years citizens of this country and many people who were previously disadvantaged, gave us a mandate to make their lives better. Therefore, in all that we do as members of this House, we should not forget that.

It is a great pleasure for me today to participate in the debate about the Vote on Home Affairs. I would like to emphasise that this is the only department, among all the Government departments, that deals with individual citizens from the cradle to the grave.

My speech will be focusing on the delivery of services by the Department of Home Affairs closer to the people, especially in rural areas and small towns. We know about the importance of matters relating to identity documents and birth certificates. What I am asking the department to do is to place containers that could serve as offices in the rural areas, from where people’s identity documents and birth certificates could be processed.

Such offices are very necessary, because people walk long distances to apply for these documents and most of them do not have money to get to the places that provide these services. We once visited St Albans and Witteklip where we found out that most people in these areas do not work. That is why I appeal to the Department of Home Affairs to consider placing these containers so that their services are accessible to people. These things are going to be needed in these rural areas especially now that we are closer to voting period. Many areas have electricity and that would make usage of these containers easy if they could be provided. All that we are asking for, we are asking for because we would like that in the long run, bigger containers could be constructed, so that they could provide employment.

We would also like to thank, in particular, traditional leaders and headmen who opened their hands and assisted people with the processing of their identity documents. I also appeal to all kings, traditional leaders, headmen and farm owners to assist the Department of Home Affairs by ensuring that everybody who lives in areas under their jurisdiction visits this Department’s offices to get appropriate documents of their citizenship of this country.

We would like to thank in particular, the hon the Minister and the department and we are very glad that we are pulling this together. We appeal for people’s assistance in this regard. [Applause.]]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson and hon Minister, the entire South African population are clients of the Home Affairs department. This means a lifelong association, from the issuing of birth certificates to registering deaths. Likewise, the entry and exit of all foreigners who for whatever reason visit the country are managed by Home Affairs. With this in mind, the ACDP was very concerned to hear that the department was to receive R300 million less than the amount requested, and that an underfunding of nearly R120 million had been identified as critical to service delivery.

The major problem, as pointed out by previous speakers, facing the department continues to be a lack of personnel, with 730 posts vacant out of a total of 6 900 posts. The ACDP agrees that not filling vacancies has and will result in long queues, with the resultant dissatisfaction from the public; low staff morale, with the consequent frequent absenteeism; unnecessary backlogs, which will necessitate remunerated overtime; and the disruption of efficient and effective service delivery. Undoubtedly, the department’s staff need to be commended for their commitment under these very difficult conditions.

I am also pleased that the Deputy Minister has raised the issue of child pornography. We really need to tighten up our legislation to deal with this evil effectively, as pornography is the theory but rape is the practice.

On 20 March 2002 Cabinet established an electoral law task team. The amount allocated to this team was R450 000. But the chairperson has, in the interim, drawn up a budget which amounts to R3 million which remains unfunded.

In conclusion, the ACDP recognises that a number of challenges remain for the department. It will need improved reporting systems, data validation efforts, and programme monitoring and evaluation to achieve the vision of rendering a world-class service. The remaining unfunded priorities of the department will have a seriously adverse impact on its capacity to provide the quality of services that our citizens deserve. We as members of Parliament need to see how we can assist this department in addressing its ongoing inadequate funding. [Time expired.] Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and hon members, in fulfilling its mandate, the Department of Home Affairs has to navigate through 72 pieces of legislation and other policy mandates covering births, marriages and deaths, IDs, citizenship, travel documents and passports, migration and other mandates, which total 26 in all.

This is a tall order for any state department and all involved deserve our forebearance. The largest chunk of the budget is dedicated to service of the citizens and the lion’s share is allocated to the population register and Hanis. The latter is meant to improve the personal identification system, automate the fingerprint identification system and replace the identity document with smart cards.

While the Independent Electoral Commission is responsible for elections in the country, it is Home Affairs that reports to Parliament on the activities of the IEC. It is expected therefore that the two organisations should work closely together, especially when it comes to the provision of infrastructure for the citizens. With most offices that issue documentation being located mainly in urban areas, the result is that people who live far from the towns are unable to access such offices. The result, invariably, is that such people are unable to register in large numbers, because of a lack of resources to travel to the centres.

According to the results of the HSRC, as commissioned by the IEC, it has been established that nationals who live in remote and rural areas of the Eastern Cape, North West, Limpopo and KwaZulu-Natal, did not register adequately for the 1999-2000 elections. Among reasons advanced for the poor registrations are the following. Firstly, lack of transport to go to those offices. Secondly, travelling to such offices only to find that the electoral officers are not in their offices, because they are attending a meeting elsewhere. Consequently, such people never come back to register.

Our proposal is that the registering officers or MEOs should make time and use mobile units at regular intervals in the remote areas to register people for elections. Better still, they should set up registering offices in the tribal offices to ensure that the people are not inadvertently disenfranchised.

We have noted that the Lindela holding facility for illegals awaiting repatriation is due to close down. The question remains as to where such people will be held after the closure. Whatever centre is used for this purpose should meet all specifications relating to catering, recruiting, medical assistance and human rights.

In conclusion, we in the UCDP believe that it is not very humane to kick a fallen man in the mouth. We should accept that inxeba lendoda alihlekwa. [one man’s meat is another man’s poison.] We wish the outgoing director- general well in his future endeavours. The UCDP supports the Vote. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, this department and issues of red tape have been criticised by the media extensively. However, the MF has noted the changes that the department has made in quite a few spheres. It is this department that services the registration of all South Africans. Noting this, the enormity of the department’s duties is extensive and burdensome.

Yet there have been achievements, and attempts made by criminals to beat the system are failing, with improvements in levels of professionalism inculcated by the department. We have issues of mixed identification, false identification, illegal immigrants, marriages of convenience and so many other issues that burden Home Affairs. Further, we note the inability of many of our citizens in the rural areas to register births and deaths, prompting the department to address these issues.

What is even more challenging is access control at the points of entry and exit into and out of the country. The department is responsible for curtailing that. The decision as to whether or not to allow access must be challenging. The MF takes its hat off to the department on this matter.

What criteria are used in taking such decisions? Further, with the influx of foreigners, the department can also contribute in controlling public perceptions on the issue of xenophobia. The public should be reminded about the apartheid regime and how we needed to take refuge in other countries. South Africa now has a responsibility to the rest of Africa. Such a view should be representative of the global one.

The MF expresses its concern at the latest findings, where unmarried persons have found that they are married to foreigners illegally, with a view to registering the latter as legals. It is hoped that such loopholes and gaps will be filled and criteria adopted to ensure that a person’s identity is protected.

The MF is confident that the department has the potential to deliver on these programmes. The projects that it intends adopting, as promised, of efficiency and effectiveness appear to be on course.

The MF supports the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr W M SKHOSANA: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister and members of Parliament, the Department of Home Affairs serves all departments without exception, even the Presidency. The department works with all South Africans, ie ordinary citizens and children, as well as refugees and illegal immigrants, on issues relating to births and deaths. We are, therefore, saying that this is a very important department in the country.

Broadly speaking, service delivery is affected first and foremost by the availability of Government’s financial and human resources. Also important is the policy and legislative environment within which service delivery and planning have to take place.

The Government Printing Works provides for the the printing and related requirements of Government departments, provincial governments and local authorities. It publishes, markets and distributes Government publications. The publication section provides for the stocking and selling of Government publications to the departments and the general public, as well as institutions abroad.

Apart from the above-mentioned functions, the Government Printing Works also provides a variety of related services to the printing industry in other African countries such as Gabon, the DRC, Lesotho and so on. The Department of Home Affairs is our ambassador in its own right in all countries throughout the world.

In September 2000, the Review Audit Commission held 17 meetings and a broad range of aspects were investigated and discussed with management. These discussions focused on procedures, invoicing, suspended accounts and arrears accounts as far back as 1966. Mr M Coetzee chaired the committee, under the supervision of the deputy director-general, Mr Lambinon.

Considering that the Government Printing Works is a business-oriented operation on a trading account, it was vitally important for us to ensure that a healthy financial position prevailed. In many instances proper supporting documentation was inadequate. Files covering the period 1996 onwards went missing from the Government printers’ office. As a result hundreds of thousands of rands cannot be traced.

It is, therefore, important to ensure that there is restructuring. The struggle for social and economic transformation in the current phase is essential. There is the task to replace the apartheid state’s structures with democratic ones which give expression to the Freedom Charter’s slogan, ``the people shall govern’’.

The fundamentals of enabling popular participation, therefore, lie in the overall restructuring of the institutional framework of the state, as well as the restructuring of the Public Service as narrowly defined. The democratic state must prepare and position its personnel and institution in such a way that, in terms of skills, efficiency and dedication to the interests of the customer, they can optimise service in a deliberate and systematic setup, so as to ensure that it has the most skilful and best motivated workforce in the country.

Building a better life for all requires of the democratic state that it constitutes itself in such a manner that it provides a better life in the most cost-effective way. The objective of efficiency and high levels of productivity, work discipline, managerial responsibility, accountability and responsiveness to the public has to become the hallmark of the performance of the Public Service.

The Independent Electoral Commission was established in 1997. It was faced with the challenge of establishing an administration that could take it through in dividing the country into voting districts; the registration of people in the voters roll; the drafting of electoral legislation and the regulation thereof; and the logistics of voting stations and electoral staff. It is through the capabilities of those men and women that the electoral commission has won several professional excellence awards, including the Computerworld Smithsonian Award and the National Productivity Institute Award. It is important to note that the IEC is faced with the challenge of improving election administration, and voting station databases and ensuring that the turnout of voters for the election and the registration of people takes place.

Some problems have been experienced in the implementation of the technologically enhanced training system. It is evident that because we are moving with the times, the benefits of the system outweigh its problems. Training was taken place in a structured manner and all targeted groups have received quality training.

South Africa is moving with the times on popular participation, ensuring that all people will be in a position to vote in the future for the benefit of this country. Cabinet adopted Memorandum 3 of 2001-02 on the establishment of an electoral law task team, which is chaired by Dr Van Zyl Slabbert. It is important to note that the IEC has a vision of strengthening delivery and management, ensuring that free and fair elections in which every voter is able to register and make a choice of his or her party take place in this country.

It is also important to note that this department holds the lives of our people in its hands and needs to build ubuntu among the youth of this country. The Film and Publications Board is one aspect that we need to examine with a critical eye. Seeing that it is a fairly new Bill, it is important to ensure that parents, teachers, police and the judiciary take this matter very seriously, because of the technology which is found all over the world. We are part of this world and it is very easy for our new democracy to be distorted by the technology of this world.

We as the ANC, therefore salute and appreciate the work done by the Minister and the Department of Home Affairs. We support this Vote. [Applause.]

Mr M WATERS: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, dumelang. Le kae? Rena re gona. [… hello. How are you? We are well.] Today I shall address two issues, namely the Film and Publications Board and immigration.

The board plays an important role in categorising films and publications. One area that needs urgent attention is that of child pornography on the Internet. And I support what the Deputy Minister said here today about child pornography. There has been a dramatic increase in child pornography sites on the Internet reported by the police to the board. To give members an example, last year, the board dealt with one case per month. This has increased drastically this year to at least one case per week.

The board submitted proposed legislative amendments to the department for consideration about a year ago, in order to combat this horrific crime. While the department may not agree with the exact wording of the proposed legislation put forward by the board, the DA would urge the Minister to give attention to the matter and table amendments in Parliament in order for this House, and society at large, to engage in debate around the issue. Another cause for concern is the education of schoolchildren on Internet safety as, not only is there a risk of children downloading pornography, but there is also an ever-increasing threat of children meeting paedophiles through chat rooms. This is called stranger-danger. The United Kingdom is currently investigating its first murder case where a young girl met a man in a chat room, who turned out to be a paedophile. Children have to be educated about the possible dangers of the Internet. Here the department, through the board, can, together with the Department of Education, play an important role in educating our schoolchildren.

The DA does recognise that the hon the Minister has had his attention somewhat diverted over the past year with regard to the Immigration Bill, which is the second issue that I would like to address. As a member of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, I have witnessed, first hand, the orchestrated campaign against the Immigration Bill in general, but against the Minister of Home Affairs in particular. The ANC set out to embarrass, undermine and insult the hon the Minister by delaying deliberations on the Bill. So much so that the Speaker, for the first time in the history of our new Parliament, was forced to intervene and remind the chairperson of the portfolio committee of the looming Constitutional Court deadline. [Interjections.]

It was only when the Rules Committee forced the ANC in the Home Affairs committee to observe a timeframe that the committee actually started deliberating on the Bill. But that was not good enough for the ANC. In an attempt to save face, the ANC committee members tabled substantive changes to the Bill at the eleventh hour, which the hon the Minister referred to, the most substantive being the introduction of the quota system - a system which even ANC Ministers now oppose.

It is quite clear that the ANC members on the committee did not workshop these substantive changes through their own party, because if they had, they would have been told by their own Ministers how ludicrous their amendments were. They would also have been informed by the Department of Trade and Industry that it has no mechanism to determine the skills shortages in each profession, as demanded by the Bill.

The arrogance of the ANC is mind-boggling. [Interjections.] So we all passed a Bill, knowing that it needed major heart surgery before it was even born. The fact that we have a skills shortage of 500 000 seems to have been ignored by the ANC. One could say that the kneejerk reaction of the ANC was a desperate attempt to legislate xenophobia. There seems to be a fear that we are about to be swamped by skilled foreigners. Nothing could be further from the truth! We cannot even keep our skills in this country.

What the ANC fails to grasp is that we are competing with countries like the USA, UK, EU, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to mention a few, who are also grappling for skills. What we need in order to become competitive is an immediate amendment to the Immigration Act, the scrapping of the quota system and for the Government to embark upon an aggressive marketing campaign in order to attract the 500 000 skills we need. The DA hopes that the amendments will be dealt with as swiftly as was the crossing-of-the- floor legislation that we passed here today.

Despite the strenuous and difficult period the Minister of Home Affairs has been through over the past few years, he has proved that he is a person of stature and a politician of measure. The DA wishes the Minister and the many loyal and hard-working officials - some of whom are upstairs - all the best in turning the Department of Home Affairs around. [Applause.]

Mr H P CHAUKE: Mr Chairperson, today is my special day because two of my departments, Sport and Recreation and Home Affairs, will be debating their Votes.

The problem that I always have concerns the DP with its cheap politicking on this podium. They are trying to use this debate today to divide the ANC and the IFP through cheap politicking. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: [Inaudible.]

Mr H P CHAUKE: Ellis is not going to tell me anything. He has never been arrested for a pass offence in this country. [Applause.] The same applies to Grobler. He has never experienced the suffering of the majority of the people in this country. He must never attempt to use that kind of approach … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Chauke, please take your seat.

Mr T D LEE: Mr Chairperson, all members of Parliament are hon members, and I would like to hear the speaker address them as such. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Chauke, would you please address the members as ``hon members’’. Mr H P CHAUKE: The hon Ellis has never been arrested for a pass offence in this country. So, his cheap politicking is not going to help.

Ngithi kuNgqongqoshe le nto abazama ukuyenza laba bantu ibangelwa ukuthi abayazi inhlupheko esiphuma kuyo. [I would like to say to the hon the Minister that what these people are trying to do is caused by the fact that they do not know the background of hardship which we come from.]

He does not know that the relationship between the ANC and the IFP is cemented by the blood and sweat of the people who died fighting for freedom in this country. So, he cannot tell us anything. There is nothing he can tell us. [Applause.]

But let me take this opportunity to congratulate the Deputy Minister on her appointment as the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs.

Former President Nelson Mandela said:

The new age will surely demand that democracy must mean a life of plenty. As images of life lived anywhere on our globe become available to all, so will the contrast between the rich and the poor, within and across the frontiers and within and across the continents, become a motivating force impelling the drive to demand a better life from the powers that be, wherever their location.

My main focus in this debate will be international migration. In discharging this duty, I want to focus on three areas. The first aspect will be to look at migration from the historical perspective. I will also look at how it has affected South Africa over the years. The second aspect will be migration from the refugee perspective which has been experienced, especially in the last 25 years, and the causes of this phenomenon and how we respond to it as a country. The third and last aspect I will be focusing on will be the contemporary debate on the issues of migration and mobility of capital and goods.

Migration in this region has been going on since time immemorial. It predates the drawing of international borders. There is emerging evidence that even during the times of Great Zimbabwe, people used to migrate from all sorts of directions to Great Zimbabwe.

In the last 200 years migration towards South Africa has intensified. This was caused by the discovery of diamonds in Kimberley and gold on the Witwatersrand, as well as the upsurge in organised farming in competition for labour between the farming community and the mining sector. There were three kinds of migrant labourers who arrived during this time. The first group came from Europe, and they were mainly mining prospectors who easily got citizenship and were assimilated into the white community that already existed in this country - those members’ great grandparents.

The second group came from Asia. This group included Indians and Chinese that came to work on the sugar cane farms of Natal. This group did not come of their own free will, as with the first group. They were part of the slavery process of the day. Much of the slave trade took place down here in the Cape, due to its proximity to the harbour.

The third group came from the rest of Southern and Central Africa. They came to work as mineworkers. This group of migrants lasted longer than the other two. Its impact is still being felt even today by those countries. The migration towards South Africa continued up until the 1980s. This group was not granted citizenship, and they were the most ill-treated amongst the groups of immigrants.

It was only after 1994 that these immigrants were granted citizenship. All those who were in the country for more than five years and wanted to be permanent citizens were granted citizenship. Most of those granted citizenship were the third generation of those original immigrants.

Over the past 20 years or so, we have seen a steady increase in refugees coming mainly from the Southern African countries. This kind of migration was sparked by the destabilisation policy of the then South African government. These people were not granted the rights that are embodied in the status of refugees. There was a growing sentiment among South Africans that there was a black tide coming from the north that wanted to swallow us.

The current xenophobic incidents are a direct result of that mentality. The current incidents that are taking place in Cape Town and Johannesburg, where immigrants of African origin are being harassed and attacked by our people, are not acceptable at all. We are Africans and our future is directly linked to their future.

I think, this is a call we must disseminate in our country, a call to all South Africans to accept and welcome everybody who is within our country’s borders, and work together in assisting them. As a full and active member of the global village, we need to observe our international obligations regarding the treatment of refugees. We need to inculcate a culture of tolerance and openness among the members of our communities.

Today there is much talk about globalisation and regional integration, as well as the importance of open economies and how fast capital and human investment mobility is. We are always told that if we want our economy to grow, we need to open ourselves to foreign trade and competition. What is left out in this debate is the part that is played by labour.

The mobility of labour, especially unskilled labour, is not considered at all. This is the reality which we cannot escape. We need to devise means that are human rights-based to deal with this problem. Unskilled labour is also in motion and is part of the process of globalisation.

Our future is directly linked to the future of the region. Nepad offers Africa new hope and direction for development and prosperity. We need to establish a new immigration regime that will meet our needs and aspirations. The EU, to this day, is still struggling with the issue of immigration within the EU. In fact, they are going to hold an immigration summit soon. I think we are more advanced, because we have already started with the Immigration Bill, which is a step in the right direction.

The US government, in dealing with the issue of immigration, has devised a new system which, in nature and content, is aimed at a particular group of people. The group consists mainly of people of Arabic origin. This is due to the events of 11 September 2001. My feeling is that this is not the way to go. It will not address the security concerns of the US government, but will only perpetuate xenophobia, intolerance and racism against people of Arabic and African origin, which encourages religious intolerance.

The objectives of the new immigration regime that we are seeking to establish through this new Immigration Bill will be to regulate the movement of immigrants, to promote capital and human investment in this country, and to set up a new system of immigration control. We need to continue debating and talking amongst ourselves as South Africans, in order to perfect our policy and legislation that governs the issue of immigration. This is one issue that should not be allowed to divide us. It requires that we share the same perspective. Let us learn from the experience of other countries, whilst we take care of our own interests.

Ellis needs to understand that … [Interjections.] The hon Ellis needs to understand that when we were dealing with the Immigration Bill in the portfolio committee, the ANC had already gone through that Bill and had made some suggestions. On the issue that was raised by the hon Swart that we can differ, it was our role as MPs to make our own suggestions as to how we could improve the Bill.

The DP did not offer anything. [Interjections.] They did not bring anything into the Bill. Instead, they behaved like they were the Department of Home Affairs. The ANC is more advanced and we understand these things. We are still going to continue to work on the issue of immigration and engage with those amendments, even those that are brought in late. We are going to deal with those parties that are positive on this issue, not the DP with their cheap politics. Because the DP does not have an alliance, they think they can try to win over the IFP through the Immigration Bill. Our relationship with the IFP is a strong one and it is going to work. The DP is not going to tell us anything. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson, Your Excellency the Deputy President, hon members, I would like to thank all the members of this House for their contributions, which have been very helpful. Firstly, I would like to thank the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, Mr M I Scott, for his contribution and his undertaking that the members of the portfolio committee would do everything to contribute towards our efforts in handling such a difficult portfolio.

I also take his point when he says that there are people who thought that this was an IFP department, because I am heading it. But I would like to say that before he took over in that portfolio committee as chairperson, there were people who really made me an outsider. I felt that I was persona non grata, because they did not treat me like a member of President Mbeki’s Cabinet. Even when the Bill went to the portfolio committee, it was not treated like a Cabinet Bill, but Buthelezi’s Bill. I am just saying that for the record: I am not crossing swords with the chairperson, whose appointment gave me quite a lot of relief, I must say. [Applause.]

As far as the hon Mr Grobler is concerned, I would not want to go over the issue I referred to in my address concerning the difficulties between the Chief Executive Officer, the director-general and myself in the department. However, he also raised the issue of what the Deputy President’s committee has done on the matter - the issue of the director-general. Actually, there is nothing that has been done, ie I cannot report anything concrete that the committee has achieved.

Of course, members know that the latest is that the Minister for the Public Service and Administration has written me a letter stating that I should write a letter to the director-general to inform him that his contract will expire on 20 June. I did write to the Deputy President to state that if the director-general had a contract it would have expired. I was in a difficult position because he had not signed the contract with me. That is the position.

As far as the committee, under the Deputy President, is concerned, I was only told that the President was seized with the matter, and there has been no further development. The President was soon going to redeploy the director-general.

As regards the figure that the hon Mr Grobler raised concerning the finances, this is a matter that we were still debating with my director- general. The figure that I gave the House originally was the one that he gave me, as the Chief Executive Officer and accounting officer of the department. But as things now stand, I am also not sure what the real figure is.

I also would like to thank the hon Mr K W Morwamoche, who spoke about the need to train. I want to tell him that we are, in fact, engaged in training, which is being rolled out to all our regions. Although our budget is not sufficient, this is being done. The new staff establishment is likely to address the regional representative programme as well.

The hon Mr Swart referred to the underfunding and vacancies that result in long queues, especially in the rural areas, and the low staff morale as a result of that. I can say that in the meantime the information that I have been given by the director-general is that 253 vacancies from entry level up to middle management level have been advertised and are in the process of being filled throughout the country. These are for ports of entry, service points and district offices. Furthermore, these are vacancies that occurred over the past year and are being advertised and filled as vacancies occur.

Mrs Van Wyk talked about something that I had also mentioned. She expressed her concerns about the smart card. I said that I was rushing into this smart card thing, even though that decision has been taken by Cabinet. I said that the department was still negotiating with the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, precisely because I also have the same fears that we might bite off more than we can chew and end up with the problems which we referred to. However, the nature of the card will always be a matter of controversy, as far as I am concerned, because it is often promoted by those who supply it. Therefore, as I said, the matter is receiving attention.

The hon Mr Pretorius also referred to the matter of underfunding, the strategic plan document and the upgrading of offices, which he said was necessary, as well as the promised agency services by municipalities. He called for a new system for the registration of voters, which he referred to the ETT (Electoral Task Team).

Of course, I need to say that I underscored the adequacy of funding for the department. But with regard to the strategic plan, I wish to refer to the primary aims of immigration reform, which is practically achievable, and to the second option as far as the devolution of public services to lower tiers of Government is concerned, which is something that the department is seized with at the moment.

The hon Mrs Gcina also emphasised some of the problems that are encountered, particularly in provinces like Limpopo, Northern Cape, KwaZulu- Natal and Mpumalanga, which are mainly rural. As I said, those are instances where we could provide a world-class service if we had enough funding to do so.

The hon Mr M Waters referred to some unpleasant matters that have taken place. As far as that is concerned, I really would not want to go back. But I just want to thank him for the kind things that he said about me.

With regard to the Lindela Repatriation Centre, which Mr Mfundisi referred to, it is not closing down. The director-general has informed me that the tender board has only asked that we re-tender for a new contractor, and the deadline for that is September of this year.

The hon Mr Chauke said something here which touched me very much when he referred to the fact that the relationship between the ANC and the IFP was cemented with the blood of people who died fighting for liberation. I think that is a point which both the ANC and the IFP must remember, especially at this time. While all this activity is taking place, we should remember that

• and I do not want to be sacrilegious - we Christians are always saying that we have bonded in the blood of Christ. I think that in a sense, we of the IFP and ANC have bonded in the blood of our followers who died in the fighting that took place. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 19 - Sport and Recreation South Africa: The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Laduma! [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you, hon Minister! Chairperson, Deputy President, Cabinet colleagues, hon members, the exhibitions that were put up by several national sports federations and various support structures in the corridors of Parliament remind me, despite the few setbacks that we have experienced in sport over the past year, of what a great sporting nation we are.

I have come to realise what an impact the fortunes of our sporting heroes, especially those who constitute our national representative sports teams, have on the psyche of the people of this country. The fortunes of our teams doing national duty over the weekend, confirm my contention in this regard.

I am sure that we all feel good about the successes of Bafana Bafana and the Springboks. [Applause.] Die Burger - I never quote newspapers - had the following to say:

Daar is altyd gesê as dit goed gaan met ons sport, gaan dit goed met die land. Logika bepaal dat dit des te beter met die land sal gaan as dit boonop goed gaan met Bafana Bafana en die Springbokspan.

Sport certainly does have an important role to play in uniting and building our society.

It was my pleasure earlier this afternoon to welcome the Springbok team to Parliament. While it may seem, from the caps that many of us are wearing, as if we are only rooting for Bafana Bafana today, it is only because they are playing in the world’s biggest sporting spectacle. We also stand squarely behind the Bokke, who gave a good account of themselves in their encounter against the Welsh last Saturday. They have set us firmly on a winning course for next year’s Rugby World Cup, if not for the second test against Wales in Cape Town this coming Saturday and, of course, the looming Tri-Nations series with our archrivals, Australia and New Zealand.

I would also like to welcome our special guests to the House this afternoon, especially two foreign visitors, namely Ms Diane Huffman from the Canadian Commonwealth Games Association, who is engaged in strategic work with the Supreme Council for Sport in Africa, Zone VI, and Mr Charles Dzimba from the Zone VI office in Gaberone, Botswana. [Applause.]

I would also like to acknowledge the presence of MECs responsible for sport and recreation in the provinces, as well as the directors, presidents, CEOs and other representatives of our macrosport bodies. On the gallery we have people like Dr Sam Ramsamy, Adv Percy Sonn, Gerald Majola, Dr Ali Bacher, Veli Ncula and Robin de Kock from world surfing - we have got our world surfing champions here. [Applause.]

We also acknowledge jukskei, which is one of the oldest sports. It is one of the sports that has very good development programmes in schools. We also have Omar Henry, the convener of selectors for cricket, with two cricketers. I can see Roger Telemachus. [Applause.] A very special thank you to those organisations that set up the colourful displays in the corridors informing us of their various activities. I also want to extend a special word of welcome to Zanethemba Dinizulu, who was recruited from the streets of Sea Point by one of the field workers of Streetwise Universe, an organisation that looks after the interests of homeless youth. Zanethemba hails from KwaZulu-Natal. He left school six years ago in search of a better life, only to find himself on the streets of Cape Town. His talent in soccer - we are not only talking about migration and Home Affairs - and his love for the sport ensured a place for him in the Oasis Football Club. He is currently at the Chrysallis Academy and Transformation Centre in George, where his life skills are being honed. In May of this year he represented South Africa at the World Sports Awards in Monte Carlo, where the world’s top sports performers are recognised for their achievements. [Applause.] Home Affairs helped us in getting him there. Again, this is an indication of the impact that sport can have on the life of an individual.

I stood before this House this time last year and began my speech with a tribute to the late MEC for sport and recreation of the Northern Cape, Brian Hermanus. I stand before the House again today to pay tribute to a dear friend and brother, my predecessor, Comrade Stephen Vukile Tshwete who, while enjoying unprecedented success in his portfolio of Safety and Security, was taken away from us suddenly and untimeously. I know that many tributes have been paid to Bra Steve over the past few weeks, but I feel, given his pioneering work within the field of sport and recreation in our new democracy, that it is only fitting that we acknowledge his contribution to our society in this House again today.

Comrade Steve made my task as his successor so much easier by laying a solid foundation upon which we could build. His legacy will remain with us forever, and there can be no better way to honour him, I believe, than to continue with what he had started and actualise what he had set out to achieve, namely to make sport and recreation accessible to all South Africans; to ensure that all our sports teams, including the national representative teams, reflect the demography of the people of our country; to ensure that we are successful in our international endeavours; and to ensure that sport and recreation make a significant contribution to the achievement of the ideal society that we know is possible on the southern tip of the African continent.

Comrade Steve was also committed to making an appropriate contribution, through sport, to the development of the African continent, in line with the African Renaissance. In memory of his life, I would like to commit myself to actualising the ideals that he had for the institution. We will all miss him. I will miss him as my mentor - he was always willing to give advice whenever I approached him.

We are also aware that there was a plane tragedy in Nigeria in which their Minister of Sport, Mark Aku, who was a very close ally of ours in fighting for sports all over the world, was killed. We have also sent our condolences to Nigeria. We are also aware of the tragedy involving Hansie Cronjé, who was killed in a plane crash. It is a sad loss to cricket. He did a great deal on the cricket field for our youngsters in South Africa. We attended his funeral as Government and conveyed our condolences to the family.

I am honoured to be able to address this august House in this, my third budget speech as Minister of Sport and Recreation. I believe that the burden of making a case for sport and recreation this year has been eased by the fact that the importance of sport, for which I have been given the responsibility, is slowly being recognised.

In that regard, allow me to quote from two recent speeches by significant role-players in our country. Firstly, President Thabo Mbeki said the following at the Presidential Sports Awards in Cape Town on 8 March 2002:

Awards should not be seen simply as acknowledgements of past greatness, the performances of yesteryear, but also - and more fundamentally - as an investment in our people for years to come and for the sustained development of sport and society in South Africa.

These awards must be seen as part of the fundamental national effort that we have undertaken as South Africans, and that is to push back the frontiers of poverty and to lend a hand to build a better life for our children, our youth and, indeed, all the people of our land, especially those who still reside in areas of underdevelopment and are deprived of benefits owing to all South Africans.

It is with this in mind that we must measure our success even on the playing fields. We must see the transformation of sport and recreation not simply as finding the ways and means to improve the physical performance of all our athletes, but rather as enthusing all our sportspeople to lend a hand to build a better life.

The President continued, and I quote:

The Australians are very proud of sport and their sports achievements and you can see very clearly as you talk to them, the great impact that sport has on the cohesion of Australian society. But you also get a sense of the great investment that the country and the society make in the development of sport, because they understand what sport means.

I would like to assure our Minister of Sport and Recreation that I am quite ready to join a delegation that he will lead to our Finance Minister to say: We need to put more resources into sport. I think we want to see amongst our winners the people of South Africa, and not some of the people of South Africa - the people of South Africa.

Allow me to read a second quotation, that of Deputy President Jacob Zuma at the Moral Regeneration Summit in Pretoria on 18 April 2002:

We could invest more in sports, particularly for the youth, as sport bridges cultural boundaries and has the potential to promote tolerance, trust, respect and social cohesion.

More importantly, sport is a fertile ground for much-needed positive role- models for our youth. We should emerge with a programme that says in working towards moral regeneration, we will mobilise for care and support.

I would like to put it to this House that this is the most emphatic recognition by our leaders of the potential role of sport and recreation in our society. Indeed, they have placed sport firmly in the mainstream of the national agenda, and I thank them for that.

I commit myself to the challenge of actualising the confidence that they have expressed that sport and recreation will contribute to the betterment of our society. I have always held the view that as Sport and Recreation we can play a much bigger role than we have been afforded to date, and I am pleased that our appeals for more resources to enable us to exploit the potential of the institution of sport for the common good of the country, are being acknowledged. Sportspeople are waiting anxiously to make a contribution and I am quite excited about that.

I am introducing a budget of R160,327 million today, a 55% increase in the budget of last year. This increase is largely as a result of the increased funding that we are getting from the poverty-relief fund for upgrading and building sport and recreation facilities, in conjunction with the provinces and local authorities, especially in disadvantaged areas throughout the country. Our baseline budget has, however, not increased substantially and this continues to constrain us from achieving the outcomes of greater access to and representivity in sports, amongst others.

I am quite happy to declare that less than 17,6% of the budget is allocated for administrative and personnel costs, and that, indeed, a mere 7% constitutes personnel costs. Of course, funding for sport and recreation is still, despite the improvements we have seen recently, a far cry from that of other countries with whom we compete. This puts us at a distinct disadvantage. We cannot fund our delivery agents, the macro bodies and the national federations to the extent that we would wish in order to take sport and recreation to the levels that we would like to see them at.

I am happy to report that of the R103 million that we had available last year, we were able to spend R101,093 million, or 98% of our allocation. The only savings that were realised related to administrative costs that could not be shifted to other areas where they could have been spent.

We shall continue with our efforts to involve provincial and local governments in national projects with a view to fulfilling Government’s commitment to integrated planning and service delivery. Moreover, we have to give form to Government’s expressed intention to shift greater responsibility for service delivery to local government.

One of the most significant areas in which the three tiers of government have reaped the benefits of co-operation in sport and recreation and where local government has been drawn in to a considerable extent, has been the upgrading of existing facilities and the provisioning of new basic sports facilities. Through this project we are making a substantial contribution to the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Project and the Urban Renewal Project. Over the past financial year we have successfully delivered 55 facilities in disadvantaged, mainly rural communities. As much as 30% of these were located within the identified rural development nodes.

Despite the various teething problems that we experienced in the process, we were able to spend all of the resources put at our disposal in the first year of our involvement in the project. We are proud of our achievements and wish to thank the provincial and local governments involved for their superb co-operation in the project.

We were also able to make a difference in the lives of 2 126 who we employed in the construction phase of the facilities, by providing them with an income and empowering them with skills that they will now be able to use to sell themselves in the labour market. Of these people 47% were women, 39% were young people and 14% were people with disabilities. [Applause.] In total, R8,7 million found its way into the pockets of people in the form of wages and salaries. Of course, we have also been able to create permanent employment for individuals who will be managing these facilities. I would like to appeal to the authorities in the areas concerned to encourage an entrepreneurial spirit at the facilities that have been built by creating opportunities for informal trading at these venues when sport and recreation activities take place.

I am happy that we have also been able to contribute to poverty alleviation in the communities that have benefited from our projects. We have also played a role in promoting black economic empowerment by ensuring that disadvantaged contractors are hired to do most of the work that we put on tender. Some of these contractors experience some problems. We have identified those problems and we are in touch with the Department of Labour to assist with skilling to ensure that we deliver.

For the current financial year we will almost be doubling our output in that we are going to build at least 85 sites throughout the country. As much as 66% of the sites are located within the rural development nodes. This time around we hope to impact on the lives of some 6 500 people who will be employed and, thereby, improve the quality of life of many more who are dependants of these people.

In July we will also start with the planning process for the 2003-04 financial year, during which time we intend to launch a further 105 projects. Again, I would like to encourage members to get involved in this so that we push back the frontiers of poverty.

This year I had the privilege of handing over the first facility that was completed to the Kutloanong community in the Sol Plaatje Metropole in the Northern Cape. I was touched by the appreciation and sense of pride that it instilled in that community.

We have received similar glowing reports of success with projects from across the country. At Tsomo, in the Chris Hani District and Tsolo, in the O R Tambo District, both in the Eastern Cape; Elandsvlei and Greenfields in Gauteng; Mogalakwena in Thulamela, Limpopo; Coleville in the Northern Cape; Thabo Mafutsanyana in the Free State; Enkangala and Albert Luthuli in Mpumalanga; Ugu and Umzinyathi in KwaZulu-Natal; Wolmaransstad and Oefersdal in the North West; Blue Downs and Westbank in the Cape. [Applause.] It was abundantly clear that these facilities would contribute to rekindling the dignity of our people in the areas concerned.

I also believe that hon members have a role to play in this matter. Our purpose in providing these facilities is to ensure that, amongst others, our youth have opportunities for participating in wholesome and constructive activities that will contribute to the moral regeneration initiative that Government has embarked upon.

Very quickly, I will be going through some of the projects that we have. We have a project called ``The youth is our future’’. That is still on track, and we, in conjunction with Admiral clothing, have been actively involved in distributing sports kits and equipment to schools in disadvantaged areas to enable children in these schools to participate in sport on a more level playing field, while acknowledging that we still have a long way to go to achieve this ideal. Once again, I would like to laud the contribution of Admiral and express the wish that other sports businesses would emulate them.

I would also like to mention the sports trust for the sterling work that they do in giving out equipment in disadvantaged communities all over the country. Our efforts to exploit the potential of sport and recreation to achieve positive outcomes will, however, not succeed without the active involvement of volunteers. Most of the people sitting up there are volunteers. Sports in general is largely dependent on these volunteers, and they have a powerful spirit of Vuk’uzenzele. I would like to congratulate them on the work that they are doing all the time. [Applause.]

We have had Government initiatives of provincial and national imbizos. They also have contributed a lot to understanding what is going on in sports with our national federations. The Presidential Sports Awards - I mentioned that - went off very well. It was touching to see some of the old volunteers and administrators go to the podium and be awarded colours by the President.

We have a programme called ``Siyadlala - Ons speel’’. One can watch that programme, which helps smaller federations that cannot afford broadcasting rights and fees to appear on national television too.

We are working on a new White Paper on Sport and Recreation and on a national plan for sport and recreation for our country. We appointed a ministerial task team last year, which was headed by Joe Phaahla, the CEO of the Sports Commission. He is here with us, fresh from witnessing Bafana Bafana’s win in the Soccer World Cup. We are examining the report and we will report in no time. There is an implementation team that is advising me on that. One such advisor is Dr Sam Ramsamy, as I mentioned.

The issue of broadcasting of sporting events of national interest is also a matter that we have taken up. Icasa has appointed consultants to look into this, and we believe that we are making some headway. Last week the Springboks game against Wales was shown on the public broadcaster, and with this win we feel that we are getting somewhere.

I am quite convinced that now that we have brought back domestic rugby and test rugby onto the public broadcaster, so that people do not have to tune into the pay-channel for them, we are getting somewhere. We only have to convince the broadcasters that they should go beyond rugby to international tennis. We want to see Wimbledon and any other international tennis games. We would also like our people to see Grandprix Formula One, athletics, cycling and all the golf international competitions that our guys are involved in.

We are planning to introduce some legislation. Only two or three Bills are coming through: Firstly, the Sports Commission Fourth Amendment Bill, which is intended to bring the Sports Commission Act in line with the Public Finance Management Act; and secondly, the National Sports and Recreation Amendment Bill, which will provide for, amongst other things, the competency for national federations to be the sole and authentic custodians of their sport. We are looking at bidding for and hosting major international sporting events in our country.

Of course, it would be remiss of me if I do not talk about the issue of transformation and representivity. We will not negotiate that with anybody. One may come from any area in this country, but if one does not carry out transformation and one’s team does not reflect the demographics of this country - there are no negotiations - we will clamp down on one so fast that one will never be able to spell ``macaroni’’. [Applause.]

We also have home-grown events that we are promoting. The Comrades Marathon, which is coming up on 17 June, and I hope that the Deputy President will participate in it, from Durban to Pietermaritzburg. I will run about 1km in that race. [Applause.] We also have the Dusi Canoe Marathon, the Argus Cycle Tour, the Two Oceans Marathon, and we are also working very closely with Tourism SA to make sure that sports tourism takes off in our country.

We are playing a very particular role in the antidoping in sport campaign. We have the SA Institute for Drug-free Sport, which is helping us in that regard. School sports is still a problem, but we are talking about it and we will be able to win the battle at some stage.

I have touched on a number of things, but, lastly, I think it would be wrong of me not to touch on Bafana Bafana. Tomorrow is a big day. Firstly, I did not give anybody a holiday for tomorrow. I will not do that because it is not in my portfolio to do that. The Deputy President will be answering questions tomorrow in Parliament, and the game starts at 13:30. We hope that, at least, Parliament will be so sensitive as to start at 15:30 so that we can watch the match to the end. [Applause.] And that is the reason I am going to be so generous as to give the chairperson a ball to give to his young son. We will give one to Donald Lee too. [Laughter.]

I have mentioned our surfers and I have mentioned Bafana Bafana. The only thing they need to do tomorrow … ``Siyabonga Nomvete’’ … is to buckle down. And members should please not sit when watching a game, but stand up and hold on to their footballs. When one is sitting down, one is sitting on goals. [Laughter.] When one is standing up, one is allowing goals to be scored. [Laughter.] So hon members should please make sure that they do not sit. Even the DP should try that.

In conclusion, I would like to express my sincere thanks to everyone who contributed towards making this task less onerous. I would like to thank the portfolio committee in particular, Sisi Ruth and the members of her portfolio committee, for the sterling work that they have done. The same goes for the MECs in Minmec, the TIC (Trade and Industry Chamber) and the staff in the Ministry of Sport and Recreation, and the Sports Commission.

A special word of thanks also goes to the Ministerial Task Team on High Performance in Sport for the contribution that they have made and the volunteers who make sport what it is. We should always think of them in everything that we do. I would like to laud them for the example that they set within the context of Vuk’uzenzele. I am sure that Sport and Recreation can set a fine example in this regard for many other institutions to follow. Hon members should not forget about tomorrow and Saturday. The Springboks are playing at Newlands on Saturday and, of course, hulle gaan wen [they are going to win]. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I think all of us can join the hon the Minister in saying: ``Siyabonga’’.

Ms N R NTSHULANA-BHENGU: Mr Chairperson, Deputy President and hon members, let me express my appreciation to the members of the portfolio committee for the co-operation and team spirit that exist in the portfolio committee. I also wish to thank the Minister for his co-operation and the listening ear that he has. My thanks go to the department, which is led by Prof Hendricks, the SA Sports Commission, which is led by the CEO, Mr Joe Phaahla and Mr Gideon Sam, and all the sports federations for the excellent work that they are doing in sport.

Few events have captured the attention of the nation like the progress made by our national soccer team, Bafana Bafana, in the Fifa World Cup currently taking place in Korea-Japan. We congratulate Bafana Bafana on their splendid performance in the World Cup soccer competition. We wish them well in their encounter with Spain tomorrow. The passion with which South Africans of all colours are following these events in distant lands beamed to us through television is testimony to the fact that South Africans are indeed a sporting nation.

We all have the responsibility to nurture our people’s love for sport. We must, in doing so, recognise sport as a great unifier of people. Events which took place in the not-so-distant past, eg our country’s victory in the 1995 Rugby World Cup and the 1996 African Cup of Nations, highlight this. These events, which marked sporting excellence for our teams in national competitions, were an awakening of the national pride that accompanied our huge sporting achievements, which illustrates the centrality of sport in nation-building. If ever there was a reason for our sports teams to be representative, we have to look no further than this.

The representivity of our national teams is an important component of sport development and should be in the agenda of all our national federations. Equally important is the project of ensuring that federations promote development in various sports at local level. This means that more resources should be poured into these communities as a sustained effort to develop sport in our country. We need to ensure that local sport structures are vibrant, and we should revive those which are defunct. This task cannot only be left to the department and the Sports Commission.

During the portfolio committee’s study tours to provinces we observed that some of the existing sport facilities have been vandalised. We believe that an answer to this problem of self-destruction is for communities to own these facilities. Communities, sportspersons and sports administrators must, in the spirit of Vuk’uzenzele, take up the challenge of reviving the local sport structures. We are making this call in view of the fact that sport at local level is competing with other demands of the community, because there is a need for sport to have a strong presence in the development of our community.

We are calling for the strong involvement of councillors in the development of sport in communities. We need a co-ordinated effort between councillors, sport bodies and sport clubs for the success of our project of developing sport in our communities. Sport, in our view, has a pivotal role to play in moulding our youth, the future of our country. We also believe that development should be people-driven in order to have a lasting impact. This is the ideal for which Comrade Peter Mokaba stood. We pay tribute to this gallant fighter for the youth.

I must commend Minister Balfour for bringing the subject of transformation in sport back onto the national agenda. We commend the Minister for signing performance agreements to address these issues of transformation in sport. We trust that our federations will take up the challenge posed by these agreements.

We in the ANC recognise transformation as an important tool to ensure that South Africans are equal in sport. We commend those South Africans who have not only embraced, but also acted on our vision of transformation in sport. We are encouraging them to make a greater effort in this regard. We, in the portfolio committee, hope to make our contribution towards the attainment of this goal. The instrument that we intend deploying in our efforts to transform our sport and improve our communication with federations is the establishment of subcommittees, which will work closely with targeted federations at first.

The cricket, rugby, hockey and other federations have taken steps to ensure that teams at national and lower levels reflect the demographics of our country. We believe that this could still be improved. As much as we want our teams to excel in international competitions, we need to ensure that those teams reflect the diversity of South Africa. We are confident that the overwhelming majority of our sportspeople and administrators understand our view on these issues.

Last year Parliament passed the South African Boxing Bill. Amongst issues addressed by this Bill was a provision to allow women to become boxers. This marked a giant leap forward for South African boxing. We commend the Minister for bringing that Bill to Parliament. We urge MECs to work with speed in facilitating the provincial boxing bills. We also urge that the matter of the new boxing regulations be given urgent attention by Boxing South Africa, so that we can begin to see our women exercising their constitutional right in boxing.

The Minister mentioned the appointment of Ms Violet Magwaca, a well-known woman in boxing circles, as an official in Boxing South Africa. We welcome this development and commend the Minister for this. We hope that the appointment of Ms Magwaca to this important sport body is the beginning of a process of fully integrating more women in the administration of boxing. We wish Ms Magwaca and her fellow officials at Boxing South Africa well in their new task in boxing. We must in the same breath congratulate Mr Mthobi Tyamzashe on his appointment as the chairperson of Boxing South Africa.

We are also proud that a South African, Mr Alpha Bhaqo, officiated as a judge in the recent world heavyweight title fight between Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson. [Applause.] This is a milestone for South Africa in boxing. We also welcome the appointment of women such as Ria Ledwaba, Anastatia Tchiclas, Millicent Mazondo, Hajari Khajir and others in leadership positions in different sporting federations. We, however, wish to state that these developments are not enough and that more still needs to be done by federations to affirm women in positions of authority in sport federations. This demands that federations play an active role in promoting the participation of women in roles such as coaches, referees and administrators in sport.

We are pleased to note that Sport and Recreation South Africa, as part of its programme to develop sport, has signed international agreements with a wide range of countries including France, the Netherlands, Nigeria and Cuba. We are grateful for the co-operation displayed by these countries in accepting us as partners in the development of sport in our respective countries. We are equally pleased that these agreements cover issues such as the sharing of expertise, resources and funding.

I must take this opportunity to thank the South African ambassador to Korea, Mr Sidney Kubheka, for the excellent support he has given Bafana Bafana in Korea. He has really made the team feel like they are at home far away from home. [Applause.]

Last year we passed the South African Sports Commission Amendment Bill with the purpose of facilitating the appointment of commissioners by the Minister and streamlining the structure of the commission, so as to make it more effective and manageable. We wish to acknowledge the work that has been done by the SA Sports Commission under the leadership of Mr Gideon Sam. We know all too well that this organ for sport development has had to deal with many challenges, ranging from the need for appropriate legislation to the challenge of amalgamating staff with different organisational cultures, namely the former Department of Sport and Recreation organisational culture and the National Sports Council culture, the two being the dominant - and sometimes contending - cultures.

Processes of this nature, as demonstrated by efforts in other spheres to integrate formerly statutory and non-statutory organisations, have proved to be complex projects. We commend the commission and the CEO, Dr Joe Phaahla, for having successfully negotiated this phase. [Applause.]

We also note that the SA Sport Commission has made progress in various projects such as the research project on indigenous games, which is 80% complete. Indigenous games co-ordinators in all nine provinces have been trained as facilitators. Stick fighting, included as the eighth national indigenous sport, started to develop rules and equipment for stick fighting. Other indigenous games equipment and resources have been developed and distributed to provinces.

Other projects of the Sports Commission include the establishment of dispute centres, which have trained 142 people in dispute resolution, and 13 people in advanced dispute resolution. Mediators trained through the dispute resolution centres have assisted the following national federations in resolving major disputes: karate and powerboating.

It is a fact that the fledgling sport administration is facing challenges of its own. In this regard, we urge all stakeholders to work together to actualise this vision, which informed the establishment of the Sport Commission. An area, though, that is still a source of concern is the perceived duplication of the roles of the Sports Commission and the department. It is our view that the matter should receive urgent attention.

We commend the Sports Commission for setting up provincial sport academies. We are, however, concerned about the geographical location of these academies, which are situated in urban centres, away from our rural and disadvantaged communities. We urge the Sports Commission to look at the intake of candidates to these academies. An issue that needs to be addressed is the strengthening of the provincial sports councils, so as to facilitate the involvement of our communities in the management of the sport academies.

We note that the department and its director, Prof Denver Hendricks, have set up a building for sport projects. We view this initiative as an important one for the urban renewal strategy. We welcome this development and applaud the department. We commend the President for hosting yet another successful Presidential Sports Awards this year. We congratulate those who were recipients of the latest awards.

I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the late Minister of Safety and Security and former Minister of Sport and Recreation, Comrade Stephen Vukile Tshwete, for his sterling pioneering work in ushering in the new sport and recreation dispensation in our country. We, who are involved in sport, will forever value his contribution to the development of sport in the country.

Recently South African sport was robbed of Hansie Cronjé, a young man who had yet to make further contributions towards sport development. Our thoughts are with his family during these difficult times. Sadly, South Africa recently lost other favourite sporting heroes like Ronald Mkhandawiri and Sibonelo Dladla, to name but a few. The passing of these sportspersons is equally mourned. We share their families’ loss.

In conclusion, we in the ANC believe that the transformation of our sports institutes is an ongoing process. We urge all South Africans to work towards this goal. The ANC supports this Vote.

Debate interrupted.

           CIRCULATION OF PARTY-MEMBERSHIP FORMS IN HOUSE

                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I apologise for interrupting this debate, but I do so because I wish to make an announcement concerning a matter of importance to all of you.

My attention has been drawn to a form which is being circulated amongst certain members of this House, and which purports to be a notice to the Speaker concerning change of membership of party. As you are aware, earlier today this House passed a number of Bills concerning what is popularly known as ``crossing the floor’’. The form that is currently being circulating appeared as an appendix to the justice committee’s report on the ATCs of Monday, 10 June. In its report, the committee makes it clear that the form is offered as a concept to contribute to the development of uniform practices and procedures.

Last week, I discussed with the Chief Whips of all parties what manner of communication would be necessary to be submitted by members after - and I stress the word ``after’’ - legislation had been enacted, and the window period for crossing the floor opened. As I indicated, this was discussed with the Whips and I was intending to submit to them some drafts for consideration and acceptance. We were looking at the legislation and what it would require of members, and subsequently I have sought legal advice from our law advisors in order to prepare the necessary documentation. Of course, we will be circulating that to parties and to members.

I do not know the purpose of circulating some of the draft forms now. Members need to be aware that if they sign any such form or if they resign from any party prior to the window period being opened, they may lose their membership of the National Assembly, and possibly of provincial legislatures or local councils.

I would therefore want to urge all members not to sign any forms. Further, they should try and recover any forms they might have signed, and report the matter to me. [Laughter.] They should await the finalisation of the legislation, which is expected to be on 18 June. Thereafter, it will be necessary for the President to sign the legislation.

The window period will open from the date of publication in the Gazette. By then, all members will have appropriate documentation on any changes they may wish to make in their party allegiances. All members of this House may laugh thereafter. [Laughter.] Before that, it is a very serious matter.

I do apologise for interrupting this debate.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Resumption of debate on Vote No 19 - Sport and Recreation South Africa:

Mnr T D LEE: Mnr die Voorsitter, Adjunkpresident, Ministers, kollegas. Daar is ‘n spreuk wat sê: Wat jy nie het nie, kan jy nie gee nie. As my oë so oor die amptenary van die Departement van Sport en Ontspanning gaan, sien ek mense wat baie het om aan sport te gee. Dit is mense wat diep spore in Suid-Afrikaanse sport getrap het; mense wat eerder los gemaak sou word van die burokrasie of politiek as daar besluite oor sport geneem moet word; mense in wie se hande ons land se sport, na my mening, veilig is.

Die DA het nog altyd geglo dat die enigste rol wat die Regering in sport moet speel, is om toe te sien dat daar genoegsame middele beskikbaar gestel word vir sportfasiliteite in voorheen benadeelde gebiede, om soveel as moontlik jong kinders van primêre skoolvlak af aan sport bloot te stel en sodoende te verseker dat talentvolle spelers uit hierdie voorheen benadeelde gebiede geïdentifiseer en ontwikkel word. Behalwe vir die feit dat die begroting ver tekortskiet om bogenoemde te verseker, word te veel geld van die begroting aan salarisse vir personeel bestee. As minder geld aan ‘n meer ``lean and mean’’ staatsadministrasie bestee word, sal daar meer geld wees om rugbyvelde, netbalbane, krieket- en sokkervelde en tennisbane in die nabyheid van skole aan te lê. Dit is wat die jeug van Suid-Afrika nodig het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr T D LEE: Mr Chairperson, Deputy President, Ministers, colleagues. There is a saying: That which you do not have, you cannot give. As my eyes scan the officials of the Department of Sport and Recreation, I see people who have a lot to give to sport. These are people who have made a lasting impression in South African sport; people who would rather be relieved from bureaucracy or politics when decisions have to be taken about sport; people in whose hands our country’s sports are, in my opinion safe.

The DA has always believed that the only role that the Government should play in sport, is to see to it that there are sufficient means available for sports facilities in previously disadvantaged areas, to expose as many young children as possible from primary school level upwards to sport in order to ensure that talented players from the previously disadvantaged areas are identified and developed. Apart from the fact that the budget is totally inadequate to ensure the above, too much money out of the budget is being spent on salaries for staff. If less money were spent on a more lean and mean state administration, there would be more money to lay out rugby fields, netball courts, cricket and soccer fields and tennis courts near schools. This is what the youth of South Africa needs.]

If there is one thing that is bedevilling sport in South Africa today, it is the ANC’s and the Minister’s obsession with quotas in sport. [Interjections.] It was reported in the Cape media in January of this year that the Minister, Mr Ngconde Balfour, said, ``Winning should not be the primary goal for our national rugby side.’’ That is what he said. But an even more sinister declaration was made, this time by none other than the President himself. At a sports awards dinner in March - this was referred to by the Minister - he said the following about transformation in sport:

For two or three years, let us not mind losing international competitions, because we are bringing our people into those teams. I deem these sentiments expressed by both the Minister and the President to be very unpatriotic.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: They are racist!

Mr T D LEE: Most of us would agree, as journalist Stephen Mulholland points out that my people, such as those well-known South Africans - and I want to name them - Makhaya Ntini, Lawrence Sephaka, Bobo, Breyton Paulse, Ezekiel Sepeng, Baby Jake Matlala, Siyabonga Nomvete and Bolla Conradie, were in our teams and they were our sports stars. But, for the President, only black South Africans are our people. By contrast, whites, and if Carlos Queiros, the ex-Bafana Bafana coach is to be believed - and there is no reason to doubt his word - even coloureds are not our people.

The old regime had many words for apartheid. I want to mention a few of the words they had. They spoke about separate development, they spoke about being separate but equal, and they spoke about job reservation. The new regime uses words such as transformation'' andquotas’’, which have racist connotations. It also contradicts the essential compact on which our Constitution rests - that a country divided by race …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask whether it is in order for a member who is sitting here - the hon McIntosh - to refer to a member of this House as racist''. I heard him very well. When the speaker quoted the President of the Republic, as well the Minister, Mr McIntosh said:They are racist.’’ Will you rule on that?

Mr D H M GIBSON: Mr Chairperson, I heard what the hon Mr McIntosh said, and he was referring to the remarks. He said the remarks are racist. He did not say: ``They are racists.’’

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Gibson, I also heard the words They are racist''. In considering the context in which these words were uttered, they followed in close proximity to the mention of the President and the Minister. Therefore, it was quite clear that the reference was to the individuals rather than to the ... [Interjections.] Let me just complete my sentence. If there were two statements,They are racist’’, then the plurality of those statements might have indicated that it could have been a reference to the actual statements, and not to the individuals. But, the plural form of the reference was quite clear and the reference was to the two individuals named and, therefore, I would like to ask the hon McIntosh to withdraw the words ``They are racist’’, because that is clearly unparliamentary.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Mr Chairperson, I cannot withdraw the words ``They are racist’’, because I did not say them. [Interjections.] I find it bizarre that you make a ruling without even asking me to give an explanation. You are quite wrong! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon McIntosh, please take your seat! I heard you very clearly from the Chair. Are you then suggesting that what the Chair is saying is not the truth? [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Just one moment, hon Gibson. Before I come to that, when the hon Gibson also made his comments, he indicated that he heard what was said. [Interjections.] It was quite clear to whom the reference was being made. Therefore, having heard it myself, and having it confirmed by someone from across the floor, as well as by the hon Gibson in what he had to say, I find it very, very difficult to accept that those words were not uttered by the hon McIntosh.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, I would like to ask you to consult the Hansard. [Interjections.] I was listening very carefully, and Mr McIntosh referred to the remarks and said: ``They are racist’’.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Gibson, I would be quite prepared to do that, but we have a more serious situation in which the hon McIntosh, whom we all confirm now was actually the author of the words - whatever they mean is another matter - denies having made the statement.

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Mr Chairman, what I object to, first of all, is the fact that you did not ask me to clarify what I said. I think, as Chairman, that is your first job. [Interjections.] Secondly, the words that I uttered were in the context of the hon Mr Lee quoting the President, who spoke with regard to representivity about our people'', meaning black people. I said:It is racist.’’ [Interjections.] It is racist. That is what I said, not `` They are racist.’’ [Interjections.] I said the President was expressing a racist point of view to say that our people are black people. [Interjections.] That is exactly the point that the hon Lee is making in his speech! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Before I take your point, Mr Bhengu, I want one moment.

Hon McIntosh, you are clearly also quite wrong in suggesting that the Chair did not seek an explanation from you. As an experienced member of this Parliament, you are quite aware that when your chief whip gets up to represent you, he is speaking on your behalf. When that happens, in terms of the audi alteram partem rule, your case has been adequately represented by your chief whip.

So far as the Chair is concerned, the Chair recognises the chief whip, is guided by what the chief whip has to say, takes that into consideration and, therefore, in determining the ruling that the Chair has to make, that is sufficient and adequate.

Mr F BHENGU: Mr Chairperson, rather than enter into this debate, I request that the Chair make a ruling.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes, the Chair has requested the hon McIntosh to withdraw the words, because they are clearly unparliamentary. [Interjections.] Mr G B D McINTOSH: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon McIntosh, I am not asking you to change your words. I am not asking you to alter, in any way, what you had to say. If you wish to look, on my pad here, I clearly noted the words as soon as they were uttered, and the words, which will be borne out in the Hansard, are, and I quote: ``They are racist.’’

What I will do is get the Hansard. I will get the hon McIntosh to have a look at exactly what he had to say there, if Hansard has recorded it. Remember, Hansard was not directly recording what the hon McIntosh was saying. But if it is recorded, then it would indicate that the hon McIntosh, in the first instance, challenged the Chair in suggesting to the Chair that the words were not so uttered, ie that he did not say that. Then, there would be the situation of the hon McIntosh misleading the House, and that is a possibility.

Mr T D LEE: In sport, if excellence, talent, merit and hard work are the highest criteria, success will follow. Australia’s approach is a perfect example. Australia succeeds because it puts excellence at the top of its list of priorities. Quotas, the worst kind of race-driven approach to advancement and selection, are conversely a recipe for disaster. First of all, a quota system means that it is not possible to field the best team available at the highest level, and that means losing. Secondly, a quota system often unfairly means that the talent, skill and merit of black players are unfairly automatically called into question. Thirdly, quotas encourage black-white thinking in sport and reintroduce race into sport by replacing one type of racism with another.

Finally, the public think that merit should be the defining criteria. In a snap survey carried out by Research Surveys Limited, 72% of those polled agreed that national sides should be chosen on merit only. In soccer, we do not have quotas. Members should look at Bafana Bafana. They are really doing us proud. Instead of foisting racist quotas on us, I would suggest that the President and the Minister should listen, instead, to Mr Banele Sindane, the CEO of Athletics South Africa, who had the following to say and I quote:

I looked at myself in the mirror and asked: Are we going to fight forever in this country? I told myself: Admit that there are problems in Athletics South Africa. Admit that we have made very many mistakes in the past. It is time to learn from those mistakes. Race was always the important thing although we never admitted it. We were not busy developing sport, we were busy fighting personal fights. The president of ASA, Leonard Chuene, and I spoke about this at length and decided that it is time to build.

The results of their building are there for all to see. South African athletes are doing well again. In fact, they are doing us proud. I would like to say thank you very much to Mr Chuene and Mr Sindane for saving and uniting this nation. There will be no thank yous to the hon the Minister because he is dividing this nation.

I would like to recommend that both the President and the Minister of Sport and Recreation follow the example …

Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary that a member should refer to the Minister and say that the Minister is dividing the nation?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! To my mind, if you are critical of policy, that is within the parliamentary parameters. I think that the hon Lee is within the parliamentary parameters in that respect.

Mr T D LEE: Madam Speaker, I would recommend that both the President and the Minister of Sport and Recreation follow the example set by Mr Sindane …

Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary that the hon Lee should refer to the Chairperson as Madam Speaker. [Laughter.]

Mr T D LEE: Mr Chairman, I would recommend that both the President and the Minister of Sport and Recreation follow the example set by Mr Sindane and stand in front of a mirror - if two mirrors which are big enough for them and their inflated egos can be found. They should ask themselves the following questions. Do we want a winning nation? Do we want to unite the nation? Do we want a proud nation? If the answers to these questions are: yes, and I hope they are, then the time has come for those members to give sport back to the people who play the game. The only colour that should be important in South African sport is the colour of the jerseys that our sportsmen and women wear. That is the only important colour.

In conclusion, I want to thank Dr Ali Bacher and the committee that is organising next year’s Cricket World Cup and wish them well. I hope that that event will bring glory to our country.

Finally, the Minister of Sport gave me a ball. Last year, I also passed him a ball. In rugby parlance that is called ``‘n warm bal’’. I passed him the New NP.

Ek het vir die agb Minister ‘n warm bal aangegee. [Applous.] [Tyd verstreke.] [I passed a hot ball to the hon the Minister. [Applause.] [Time expired.]]

Mr E T FERREIRA: Chairperson, there is no gel, glue or other adhesive that can bond South Africans together into one nation in the way that sport can.

Our sports-mad people in this country forget about colour, religion and differences when our teams, especially our national teams, run onto the sports field. Our sports teams had a golden era in the middle to late 90s. It is fitting that, in this regard, we should pay tribute to the then Minister of Sport and Recreation, the late Steve Tshwete. Under him, as Minister, we won the Rugby World Cup, the African Cup of Nations in soccer and we were number one in the official soccer rankings in Africa. Our national rugby team, during this period, also won the Tri-Nations series. Our tennis players performed well on the world circuit and reached quarterfinal and semifinal stages at grand slam events.

Our top golfer, Ernie Els, was at one stage number one in the official world golf rankings. Our national netball team played in the final of the world cup during that period. Both our men’s and women’s hockey teams were very competitive in world terms, and we had some major achievements in athletics. It was also during this period that our national cricket team was virtually unbeatable in both one-day international cricket and five-day test cricket. Our swimmers performed exceptionally well at the Olympic Games and other international swimming events, including achieving a world record or two.

It can be safely said that South Africa was, in many sporting codes, one of the leading nations in the world. Sadly, our sporting performances at both provincial and national level have deteriorated to a great extent over, especially, the last 12 to 24 months. Our rugby team has slipped to number five in the world rankings. Our soccer team could not even reach the semifinal of the African Cup of Nations. They dropped from number 16 in the world rankings to number 37. Our cricket team has all but fallen apart. Both our men’s and women’s hockey teams are getting one hiding after another. Our netball team is no longer competitive on the world map.

There are probably many reasons for this deterioration and many factors have also been blamed for this. One of the convenient but not very true factors being mentioned by some sectors in our society is the issue of transformation. These people, I must be honest, often sit with red faces when one points out to them that the black players that are brought into our rugby and cricket teams in particular, are more often that not the players that are performing very well in these teams. [Applause.]

I believe that the reason for many of our bad performances should rather be sought in the attitude of some of our well-known top sportsmen and women. It is unfortunate that many of our household names in sport have become too big and important and find it very difficult to give their all for their country. It is also accepted that the large sums of money involved in sport today are clouding the minds of our people when it comes to national pride and commitment to our country.

Let us not beat about the bush. Government interference in sport very often plays an important role in the deterioration in our sport performances. Government has interfered in some sporting codes, to the extent that it has virtually destroyed the administration of those codes. The ANC, unfortunately, does not seem to know the difference between a good comrade and a good sports administrator. The time has come for sportspeople to run sport and for there to be fewer political appointees and less political involvement. There are very few cases where political appointees have not made a complete mess of the federations. Members should look at Eastern Province Cricket as a good example.

The good news, however, is that in the past week or two, some of our national teams have started to show signs of life again. After a shockingly bad patch, Bafana Bafana seem to have turned the corner. We have done exceptionally well in the World Cup to date. Both our team and our coach should know exactly how proud we are of them. Around two weeks ago, I presented a motion in this House which suggested that our national soccer team would do us all proud. I predicted that they would prove the prophets of doom wrong. Some of the members sitting here today came to me afterwards and laughed at my motion. I am very proud to say to the members today: I told you so.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: [Inaudible.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: That hon member should leave the Sharks out of this. [Laughter.]

A special word of congratulations needs to go to our coach who, to use his own words, took over a down and out team. It is amazing how he has turned this team around within a matter of weeks. At last, the notion that we need foreign coaches because our own are not good enough has been dispelled. [Applause.] I must be saying something wrong if those members are applauding me.

Our national rugby team also had a good victory over the weekend. Although they certainly do not look like world-beaters yet, the signs of them marching back to the top are there. Let us hope that our cricketers will also soon get back to their winning ways of yesterday.

The IFP will be supporting this year’s budget for sport although I think that we are all agreed that Government is not investing enough in sport. Apart from the obvious benefits involved in our being a powerful sporting nation, one should not underestimate the major contribution that sport tourism could make to our economy. If our national cricket team had been more competitive in the series in Australia, thousands more Australian sport tourists would have accompanied the Australian team for the South African leg of the tour. We in the IFP are grateful for the amount allocated for the erection of new sports facilities. But, our concern is whether many rural communities will be reached. We have so much sporting talent in our rural communities, but they are very seldom given the opportunity to excel. As we have pointed out before, we are still concerned about sport development at school level. Government should invest more in sport academies for primary and high school children, as has been done in Australia with sensational results. This is already being done here on a small scale, although not big enough.

Let us give the Minister credit for being so passionate about school sport and sport in general. He may interfere in sport too much but, at least, he is very passionate about it.

Laastens wil ek ‘n nederige maar ernstige beroep doen op alle Suid- Afrikaners, ook my wit landgenote, om ons nasionale sokkerspan te ondersteun tydens die res van die Wêreldbeker. In tipiese Suid-Afrikaanse sporttradisie toon hierdie sokkerspan van ons veggees en karakter waarop ons almal gerus trots kan wees. Ons moenie skaam wees om vurig ons sokkerspan te ondersteun nie. Dit is almal se span. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Lastly, I want to make a modest but serious appeal to all South Africans, including my white compatriots, to support our national soccer team during the rest of the World Cup. In typically South African sporting tradition this soccer team of ours is showing a fighting spirit and character that we can all undoubtedly be proud of. We should not be ashamed to support our soccer team with passion. It is everybody’s team. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I would just like to put it on record, in order to determine the ruling, that from the front desk, I have also received a sheet of paper which recorded the statement as having been: ``They are racist.’’ I just needed to record this, so that it can be incorporated into the ruling.

Mr A MLANGENI: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members of the House, you will have to excuse me as my voice is bad and I am not sure whether members will be able to hear what I am about to say.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEE: Order! Hon member, I will assist you by asking your colleagues here to preserve the decorum of the House and give you maximum consideration, seeing that you are experiencing difficulties. Hon members, please oblige the hon member for the duration of his speech. Please proceed, hon member.

Mr A MLANGENI: Thank you very much, Comrade Chair. I am a man of peace. I love peace. It always saddens me to see people quarrel over small things. I have always been under the impression that this is an important House where we should be discussing important state matters. But to come and quarrel about words and say unpleasant things about other people, really saddens me.

When the President offered to join a delegation, as the Minister pointed out earlier, to be led by the Minister of Sport and Recreation, to the Minister of Finance to request that more resources be put into sport, I believe that this was a recognition that not enough resources were being made available for sport and recreation. I have always held the view that employers need healthy workers in their employ, because a healthy worker can be more productive, if utilised properly, than an unhealthy worker.

Today our national soccer team is competing in the World Cup in Japan- Korea. They are there because they are fit and healthy. Participation in sport has, amongst other things, made them healthy and fit. More resources should be invested in sport because, as the Minister pointed out, it bridges cultural boundaries, promotes tolerance and respect, and as in Australia, has the potential to make people stick together, ie it is a form of social cohesion.

The 1995 Rugby World Cup is a good example of how people can be united to speak with one voice in support of a national team. Two weeks ago I was participating in a sporting event and was happy to see and hear how the people of this country, black and white, were united in their support for Bafana Bafana.

We should make sport and recreation accessible to all South Africans. Sport and recreation facilities should be in close proximity to where the people live. People should not have to travel long distances to reach a sports facility. Why should rural communities have to travel long distances to play or watch sporting events in an urban area?

Previously, the RDP provided some funds for building sport and recreation facilities in disadvantaged communities. This programme was successfully completed. But in this year’s budget debate the Minister pointed out that the building of sport and recreation facilities, which is my main focus here, as well as the upgrading of existing facilities, would contribute towards job creation, income generation and poverty relief.

The past financial year saw 55 facilities delivered in disadvantaged communities, mainly in rural areas. I was born many years ago and I honestly do not know of any previous government in South Africa that has tried hard to make a difference to the lives of our people in both urban and rural communities.

The aim of this programme, ie of building sport and recreation facilities, is to alleviate poverty, as the Minister pointed out, by creating temporary and permanent jobs in the construction and management of sport and recreation facilities. Funds are provided for building and upgrading infrastructure, as well as for training people to manage these facilities. A difference has been made to the lives of over 2 000 people who were employed in the building of the facilities. The project provided them with income and helped them upgrade their skills.

The Minister pointed out that 47% of those employed were women, 39% were young people and a sizeable number were disabled people. Not only have communities benefited from these projects, but even disadvantaged contractors got a slice of the cake by being part of the work that was put out to tender. The Minister has introduced a budget of a little over R160 million. This is not much, but is an improvement on last year’s budget of R103 million. It is an increase of 55%.

The majority of the members of the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation are grateful that the poverty-relief fund has made funds available for the upgrading and building of sport and recreation facilities. [Applause.] I sincerely hope that next year more funds will be made available for upgrading Soweto Country Club, the only golf course in an African township in the whole of South Africa. We need to produce many more Ernie Elses, Rietief Goosens and Tiger Woodses from our own disavantaged youth.

Of the R160 million, R90 million has been set aside for sport and recreation facilities. More than R84 million will be spent on facilities and only just over R5 million on administration. Somebody in the portfolio committee was complaining that a large portion of the money usually goes to personnel and administration. Clearly, here it is the opposite. More funds have been made available for sports facilities and very little, namely R5 million, will go towards administration.

The target for the current financial year, as the Minister has pointed out, is to build on 85 sites throughout the country. The majority of these sites are located within the rural and urban development nodes. It is estimated that more than 6 000 people will be employed. This will improve the quality of life of many more dependants of those who will be employed through this project.

There are still many areas throughout the country where facilities do not exist. It is our duty, as members of this Parliament, to identify these areas and bring them to the attention of the Minister. Let us remove our children and grandchildren from our streets, where they have been playing cricket and football, and provide facilities for them.

I want to thank the Minister for being involved with Admiral Clothing in distributing sports kits and equipment to some schools in disadvantaged areas. We must also thank the Department of Sport and Recreation and the Sports Commission for making themselves available whenever the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation requests them to come and brief us.

Some of the rural nodes targeted for integrated sustainable development include Ukwahlamba and OR Tambo in the Eastern Cape, Mzinyathi in KwaZulu- Natal, and Kangala and Enhlanzeni in Mpumalanga. The ANC supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Mr C M MORKEL: Chairperson, Minister of Sport and Recreation, Mr Ngconde Balfour and his A-team behind us, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, today we are not only debating the budget presented to the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation for this financial year, but we also have the duty to evaluate the performance of Sport and Recreation South Africa for the previous financial year. Our yardstick is the Public Finance Management Act. Yet taxpayers and voters, who are often not au fait with the technicalities of the PFMA and its oversight in monitoring instruments, have their own sometimes weird and often wonderful performance measuring instruments. Some are perceived simply to be calculating the number of victories we score, while others are perceived simply to be calculating the quotas that reflect the proportional representation of all South Africa’s demographic groups in our provincial and national teams.

Whilst the promotion of greater national pride through victories may be desirable, racial pride must not be confused with nation-building. This debate has become stale and belongs in the old South Africa. We need to be focusing the means of nation-building - our scarce transformation and development resources - on those sporting codes and people who have the most potential to be victorious. Only then will true potential and the value of nation-building be realised by even the most intransigent South Africans.

In this context, I believe that Sport and Recreation South Africa is moving in the right direction. We understand from preliminary reports to the portfolio committee that the progress of the Ministerial Task Team on High Performance is in the process of identifying sporting codes and people that have the most potential to give us gold medal performances. We accept that the objectives set out in the Budget Vote, if implemented successfully, would promote the transformation and development of teams at local and provincial level that would produce the best that we have to offer the world in the sporting arena.

Programme 2, in particular, with its overarching functions of funding and policy, is being allocated R54 million, increasing to R64 million over the MTEF period. We are confident that this programme allocation will be spent more thriftily now that the department has become more compliant with the prescriptions of the PFMA and has heeded the warnings of the Auditor- General.

The major concerns around the lack of capacity to perform proper audits of its substantial transfer payments to the South African Sports Commission, macro bodies, national federations and recreation providers, including bids for the hosting of international events in South Africa, have for the most part been addressed by increases in Programme 1, which deals with administrative skill and the capacity to hold portfolio organisations accountable.

Programme 3, which is the Building for Sport Programme, has been boosted from R37 million to R90 million in the next financial year, and in the year thereafter to R130 million. While these increases are commendable, we believe that Sport and Recreation South Africa must work more closely with organised local government and the Department of Education, to ensure that not only the building but also the maintenance and management of multipurpose sports facilities form part of the integrated development plans of local communities.

Innovative measures need to be developed by all relevant stakeholders to ensure that sports facilities of all local communities are managed by means of multipurpose facility management plans. Our youth cannot afford any more white elephants when all they have is the moonlight for floodlights, a vivid imagination for goalposts and a blurring of the fine chalk line between good and evil.

In conclusion, I would like to wish the Minister and his staff, Sport and Recreation South Africa, the Sports Commission, the other portfolio organisations and my colleagues in the portfolio committee well for the remainder of the financial year. May we continue to build our nation on the foundations and legacy that sporting heroes such as Steve Tshwete, Hansie Cronjé and even Oom Charl Marais of Jukskei South Africa have given us. Bafana Bafana, Amabokoboko, the Proteas and many other sporting codes have made much progress. Their boots are too big for any of us to fill by ourselves. The New NP will support the Vote. [Applause.] Mr C T FROLICK: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the Department of Sport and Recreation bears major responsibilities in our country in that it not only possesses a vast amount of untapped sporting talent and capacity, but is simultaneously faced with the complex and demanding process of transformation. It is, therefore, a matter of concern that at the moment the department has not yet tabled any legislation in this regard in the committee for processing. It is indeed inconceivable that the department does not foresee the need for legislative reform, given the immense challenges it faces.

In a briefing to the committee, the dedicated officials from the department mentioned a lack of co-operation and integration on the part of certain MECs and sports federations, which has compounded the difficult task of the department. This is an issue which, I believe, the Minister should attend to urgently.

The ambitious programme that the department launched last year, ie ``Building for Sport’’, has borne fruit. Unfortunately, there have also been shortcomings. It is, however, not acceptable that the level of involvement of local communities in sports development is to be jettisoned due to certain difficulties that are being experienced. It remains the responsibility of Sport and Recreation South Africa to proactively address the shortcomings in this regard.

The Minister will note that in less than nine months, South Africa will be hosting one of the greatest sporting events in the world. The 2003 Cricket World Cup will capture the attention of billions of sport lovers. However, recently the United Cricket Board of South Africa decided to intervene and assume the direct running of the Eastern Province’s cricket. The UCB took this decision in the face of damaging mismanagement and conflict, which are prevalent in that province’s cricket administration. Their decision is the correct one, given the vital role that the province will play in hosting the Cricket World Cup. We must not lose sight of the importance of a successful world cup for South African sport and our image in general.

Given all these factors, it is expected that the Ministry will support the cricket board. Let us make it clear that we will not allow certain individuals to manipulate the process and put our national interests at risk to settle old political scores.

Allow me to comment on the thorny issue of transformation. Recently, South Africans discussed the performance of our national teams. With our readmission to the international sporting arena in the early 1990s, South Africans were excited by the immediate successes that our teams achieved on the international stage. However, there have been disappointments.

I believe, as a person coming from a disadvantaged background, that South Africans must learn to accept that transformation is indeed a difficult process, but remains irreversible. I would like to thank the Minister for his commitment in that regard. South Africans must avoid falling into the trap of blaming sporting failures on transformation. We cannot lose sight of the fact that we are competing against the best in the world and that despite our failures, we continue to be ranked amongst the best. To lose against Australia in cricket or rugby is painful, but it is not as a result of transformation.

It is indeed a feather in the cap of South Africa that eight years after democracy, we are considered among the main contenders in many sporting codes. We should not complain, but rather accept the challenge and lift our performance. Let us support our national sport stars and focus on developing a crop of new ones. We all know that the talent is there, but it will not surface if our energy goes into constant complaints instead of attaining world-class standards.

The UDM supports this Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms N E LAMANI: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, I feel honoured to participate in this debate. Firstly, I would like to congratulate Bafana Bafana on their 1-0 victory over Slovenia in World Cup 2002, and wish them well in their match against Spain tomorrow.

We also wish to commend Coach Rudolf Straeuli and the Springboks on their 34-19 win over Wales in the first test match on Saturday. Well done! Furthermore, we wish to congratulate Eric Simons on his appointment as the new Proteas coach.

I would like to commend our hon Minister Ngconde Balfour for his tireless and selfless efforts to improve the quality of life of South Africans through sport and recreation.

Bayabulela nabantu basemaphandleni, Ngconde. Ezilalini baziva benelunda ngendlela obakhathelele ngayo. [People from rural areas are grateful to you, Ngconde. People in the rural areas are proud about the way you care for them.]

Let me take this opportunity to commend the officials of both Sport and Recreation South Africa and the SA Sports Commission for their detailed and well-structured briefings on this Vote. The valuable information presented to us in the portfolio committee will assist us greatly, especially when we are dealing with our oversight responsibilities.

Let me now deal with Sport and Recreation South Africa. In defining its objectives, the Department of Sport and Recreation has this to say:

Sport and Recreation South Africa strives to have the most efficient, effective, economical and transparent governance in facilitating delivery in sport and recreation to the people of South Africa.

And this is happening. Hon members will understand when I explain what they are doing.

Furthermore, the core business of Sport and Recreation South Africa is recruiting more South Africans into healthy physical activities; providing greater access to sport and recreation by building facilities, especially in the marginalised communities; and assisting with bringing major international sports events to South Africa, thus contributing to the building of the economy and the creation of jobs.

Mhlalingaphambili, le mibono iyenzeka ngoku sithethayo. Mihla nezolo sidlala namaqela asuka kumazwe ngamazwe kwiindidi ngeendidi zemidlalo. Kulapho ke kuvela khona imisebenzi.

Imidlalo yehlabathi kwiqakamba iya kubanjelwa eMzantsi Afrika ngonyaka ka-

1. Wagwetywa ndlala, yavela imisebenzi, baphila abantu, kuba kaloku xa ize apha eMzantsi Afrika iza kuthi saa, idlalelwe kwiindawo ngeendawo.

Siyabulela kwigosa eliphezulu, uMnu Majola, ngendlela engafihlakalanga awenze ngawo lo msebenzi. Usixelele, sele sisazi siyikomiti ukuba kuza kwenzeka ntoni na. Yeyona nto besiyifuna, sisithi makungabikho nto efihlakeleyo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, these ideas are being implemented as we speak. Day after day we play against different teams from different countries in different sporting codes. That is where jobs are created.

The Cricket World Cup will be held in South Africa in 2003. Gone is hunger

• jobs will be created and people will live, because when the games start, they will be played in different places in South Africa.

We are grateful to the Chief Executive Officer, Mr Majola, for the transparency with which he has done this work. We already know what will take place as a committee, because he has told us. That is what we wanted, when we requested that there be transparency.]

Development is a cornerstone of the ANC’s policy in the reconstruction of our country. We are satisfied with the steps the department is taking, in line with ANC and Government policies on reconstruction and development.

Communities have an equally important role to play in the development of sport and recreation in our country. We therefore urge greater involvement by our sportspeople in local sport. The competency of local government, as we know, is that of building facilities that are an instrument for delivery. We need to involve ourselves in giving a hand in this sphere of government.

The department is a major contributor to the funding of our national federations. We are charged with the responsibility of organising the various sports in our country. This co-operation with national federations serves to assist our sportspeople to achieve more.

We welcome, as the Minister has said, the television programme, Siyadlala, which covers a number of sports, at the same time encouraging mass participation in sport. Another step that we welcome is the building of sports facilities, as indicated by the comrade who has just spoken here. This will contribute to poverty alleviation.

The most important fact in respect of this building of facilities is that people are being trained to manage and maintain the facilities. At the end of the day they have a sense of owning the facilities, as they have participated in their building and are consulted prior to any decision being made, whether it be about indoor or outdoor sports. This is what we call transparency. Another thing that we welcome is the fact that this building and upgrading of facilities also changes the lives of our people. People look forward to and are proud of what the Minister is doing.

As I have said, local government is charged with the responsibility of building the sports facilities, so the backup system that Sport and Recreation South Africa is giving to this sphere of government is leading them to a preferential procurement policy. And it is interesting to see how they lead them to deal with this, addressing the issue of looking into all areas of the local government management system. It is also leading them in the process of identifying and at the same time making proper decisions in awarding the contracts, as well as looking at the manner in which we appoint the managers.

We are of the view that sport can play a crucial role in combating crime. This, we believe, will contribute positively to the moral regeneration campaign, a campaign whose thrust is to instil good moral values in our communities. We are pleased that the department is making progress in this regard.

A critical area in the campaign for moral regeneration is the involvement of our schoolgoing youth in sport-related activities at schools. Sadly, the past few years have been marked by a decline in the profile at some schools. This is particularly the case with schools that are in previously disadvantaged communities. We are urging the authorities to move with speed to address this shortcoming.

I wish to commend the SA Sports Commission for their efforts in sports development. We are glad that the Sports Commission is addressing the matter of indigenous games, as mentioned by our chairperson, the hon Ruth Bhengu. We consider indigenous games to be an important vehicle to bring those who are otherwise marginalised but still participating in sport into the main sports arena. This is also an avenue for broadening the base of sport. With regard to stick fighting, I think it is our culture. We use sticks for fighting. I have done it myself, while I was still at school.

The progress made by the Sports Commission in addressing education and training in sport is an exercise worthy of praise. At the same time, we commend them because our sports administrators will be trained in sports management. We are also pleased that a dispute centre for sport has been established. I will not go further, as this has been addressed.

Let me address the question of the Junior Dipapadi programme that is being spearheaded by the Sports Commission. This programme seeks to ensure that sport is being played by young people in and outside the formal schooling system and is deliberately intended as a foundation for developmental strategies from the age of three to 14 years.

This is great, and for the first time we are going to have children from the age of three engaged in physical activities. This will give us future young people who are strong and committed. In countries like Cuba this starts at an even earlier age. One has to go to those places to see what would be applicable in one’s country.

Furthermore, the objective of this programme is to introduce children to various sports and recreational games; to enhance the development of motor skills like locomotion, ball catching, etc, as one has to use the neuromotor area, to exercise the nerves and the muscles; and to equip educators, caregivers, and community leaders with skills on how to engage children in sport and recreation at an early age.

Furthermore, Junior Dipapadi promotes integration amongst different cultures to complement physical education in schools, which, unfortunately, is lacking at the moment. This programme also deals with modified sports as part of Junior Dipapadi. This is simply a co-ordinated way of adapting adult sport for children so that they can develop skills and enjoy their introduction to sport.

Ndifuna khe ndithi gqaba gqaba kodwa selethethile umhlonitshwa uRuth Bhengu. [I would like to say just a few words, even though the hon Ruth Bhengu has mentioned this already.]

I am looking at the other side of the coin as regards these sports academies, which were, as we are aware, previously not accessible. I want to look at the manner in which the Sports Commission is planning to deal with this area. We are going to have provincial academies. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, sports development should be viewed as parallel to the health of the nation. It is unfortunate that the budget allocated to sport remains unimpressive. An interdepartmental approach, especially to school sport, will assist in budget sharing and Government realising its objective of training young sportsmen and women.

We need to ensure that safety measures are in place for each sporting code, especially in schools and sports clubs. There is a great concern at the moment with regard to rugby played specifically between the ages of 14 and 20 years. Many parents are concerned that insufficient safety measures are in place - and I hope the Minister will hear me on that one.

It is alarming that this year alone, due to fatal injuries incurred while playing rugby, six young boys have died while other sporting careers have come to an abrupt halt due to serious injuries. Some parents do not have any insurance and are therefore not able to cover the medical bills. Rugby is viewed as a contact sport and parents have recommended that when selecting team players, the children should be weight-listed, rather than age-listed, as each young person develops differently to the next physically. The discipline will assist our children to express their energy in a positive and safe manner. The department needs to engage the national federation to review the existing policy. Sports development at schools and clubs is all about creating civil challenges, opportunities and life goals for our youth.

With regard to the budget, there are still some concerns about fraud, corruption and mismanagement by sports federations, and this is hindering sponsorships. I also want to say that sports federations still remain unacceptable and inaccessible to communities. I had to personally engage one and they asked me to do something, which I found totally unacceptable. I would really like the Minister to look at that.

Moneys have also been allocated to build facilities, but none for maintaining them. When we visited the provinces, the neglect and vandalism of these facilities were very evident. The department must proactively engage all stakeholders in partnerships and ownerships, to maintain these facilities. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, tydens die jaarlikse sporttoekenningsfunksie het president Thabo Mbeki gesê dat Suid-Afrikaners oor die volgende paar jaar nederlae van nasionale sportspanne moet aanvaar in belang van ‘n groter doel, naamlik die rassetransformasie van sport. Wat die agb president gesê het, het verreikende implikasies.

Die eerste implikasie is dat die agb president sê dat rassetransformasie en rassekwotas ‘n tweede span in die betrokke sport tot gevolg het. Hy erken dat dit nie die beste span en die eerste span is nie. ‘n Verdere implikasie is dat die agb president daardeur erken dat ras eintlik die oorsaak is dat ons slegs ons tweede beste kan lewer op die sportveld. [Tussenwerpsels.]

As ons praat van rassekwotas, maak ons eintlik van wêreldsport ‘n grap. Hoekom sê ek dit? Om die eenvoudige rede dat as die Olimpiese Spele byvoorbeeld plaasvind, stuur die lande van die wêreld hulle beste spanne na die betrokke sportbyeenkoms, maar in Suid-Afrika sê ons ter wille van politieke inmenging by sport stuur ons maar ons tweede en derde en vierde beste sportlui. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ek wil vir die agb lede vra hoekom daar nie rassekwotas met betrekking tot sokker is nie? Hoekom, as ek so na die Bafana Bafana-span kyk, lyk dit vir my asof daar ‘n kwotaprobleem is? [Tussenwerpsels.] Nee, daardie agb lede wil dubbele standaarde kom toepas. Dit is waarmee sy lede besig is! Hulle kan maar hul hande in die lug gooi en te kere gaan; die werklikheid is, dit raak ook sekere sportlui in Suid-Afrika wat ons nie kan kwalik neem nie as hulle liewer in die buiteland by sportklubs gaan aansluit om sodoende minstens ‘n merietebeoordeling te kry en daardeur die kans te staan om as die beste persoon in hulle betrokke sportsoort gekies te word. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, during the annual sports awards function, President Thabo Mbeki said that in the next few years South Africans should accept the national sports teams suffering defeats in the interests of a bigger goal, namely the racial transformation of sport. What the hon the President said has far-reaching implications.

The first implication is that the hon the President is saying that racial transformation and race quotas will result in a second-best team being fielded in the particular sport. He is acknowledging that it will not be the best team or the first team. A further implication is that the hon the President is acknowledging that race is actually the reason why we can only produce our second best on the sportsfield. [Interjections.]

When we talk about race quotas, we are actually making a joke of world sport. Why do I say that? For the simple reason that when the Olympic Games take place, for example, countries send their best teams to this particular sporting event, but in South Africa we are saying that for the sake of political interference in sport we will be sending our second, third and fourth best sportspeople. [Interjections.]

I want to ask the hon members why there are no race quotas with regard to soccer? Why, when I look at the Bafana Bafana team, does it appear to me that there is a quota problem? [Interjections.] No, that hon member wants to apply double standards. That is what his members are doing! They can throw their hands in the air and make a fuss; the reality is, that this also affects certain sportspeople in South Africa whom we cannot blame for preferring to join sportsclubs abroad so that, at least, they are judged on merit and in that way have a chance to be chosen as the best person in their particular sport. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]]

Mme M A SEECO: Modulasetilo, Aforika Borwa ke mmabana wa setshaba. O humile ka batho ba ba akaretsang bahumanegi, bagodi, batho ba ba sa itekanelang le batlhokatiro. O ruile batho ba mebala yotlhe.

Ke rata go bolelela motlotlegi Tona ya Metshameko le Boitapoloso gore setshaba seno sotlhe, se tlhoka go itshidila le go itapolosa ka mekgwa e mentsi. UCDP e amogela tekanyetsokabo eno go direla setshaba sa Aforika Borwa ditlhabololo.

Kgwetlho ke go tokafatsa mabala a metshameko kwa metseselegaeng. Setshaba se tla bona ditiro, ikonomi e tla gola le go baya Aforika Borwa mo mmapeng wa boditshabatshaba. Ditheo tsa bommabana di tla thusiwa go katisa bomapimpana go tswa kwa tlase, re rotloetse dinaledi tsa lefatshe tsa ka moso, le go fokotsa tiriso ya diritibatsi. Re tla bona megaka ya Aforika Borwa ya ka moso. Aforika Borwa o tlhoka matlhaku a maswa go agelela mo go a bogologolo. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs M A SEECO: Chairperson, South Africa is the mother of our nation. It is blessed with people who include the poor, the elderly, the sick and the unemployed. It has people of different colours.

I wish to inform the hon the Minister of Sport and Recreation that this nation wants to be involved in sport and recreation in many ways. The UCDP supports this budget of the department in that it will develop the people of South Africa.

A great wish is to improve sportsfields in rural areas. The nation will be employed through this and the economy will grow, and this will also put South Africa on the map globally. Organisations will also help to train children from a young age and encourage the stars of the future, and reduce drug abuse. We will see great champions of South Africa. South Africa needs role models who will emulate role models of the past.]

The 54% increase in the Sport and Recreation Vote in South Africa should be used to address national problems like unemployment, poverty and economic development. One way of improving the quality of life of all South African children between three and six years of age is to develop them for participation, especially in disadvantaged rural communities.

The focus should be on contributing towards the alleviation of unemployment through a labour-intensive approach. Facilities should be developed and indoor and outdoor equipment provided. The UCDP supports the Vote. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! May I ask the UCDP whips to indicate, in future, the language preference of their members, because we were not able to benefit from the first part of the speech. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, Minister, siyabonga [we thank you]. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

The MF is proud of the talent that South Africa exhibits in the sports arena. This talent that we find prevalent in all types of sport among both males and females is certainly impressive. Noting this potential to compete with the rest of the world, we should utilise this talent to build better international relations and establish a stronger nation within.

How do we do this? We have poorer areas where resources for education and recreational activities are minimal, thus we find the talents of our youth tapped into activities that rob them of their talent, rather than putting it to good use. Using drugs and joining gangs become their recreation. We need as a matter of urgency to steer them away from such practices and make available recreational activities that build a stronger, clean, respectable, responsible and talented nation.

We have to reach out to these communities and nurture this talent that is crying out to be noticed. We cannot let them lose hope of being noticed or being special. The MF calls on all businesspeople to assist the department in pursuing programmes in the poorer areas, so that we not only take notice of our hidden talent but also divert our youth from the recreation offered by gangs and syndicates. The MF notes the department’s hard work and dedication in promoting all forms of sport. We especially note the Minister’s direct involvement in aspects such as watching the Bafana Bafana match on Saturday morning. The MF would like to take this opportunity to wish our soccer team well in their match against Spain. We know they can do it. [Applause.]

The MF, once again, mourns the loss of the late Hansie Cronjé and hopes that his intention to coach the youth will be taken over by his colleagues who see the benefits this would hold for the next generation. As for the budget, the MF is confident that the department will utilise the funds to the best of their abilities and to the advantage of the community. The MF supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Dr E A SCHOEMAN: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, comrades, at one stage in my political life, the hon Lee was in my team. He proved himself to be unreliable and opportunistic. This was again reflected here, in his contribution at this podium. We treat his ranting and raving with the contempt it deserves. [Applause.]

I would also like to acknowledge the presence of the South African swimming team here today. They did us proud in Tokyo earlier this year. [[Applause.]

The miracle of 1994 must serve as a continuous source of inspiration as we nurture our young democracy and build a truly South African nation. Reconciliation amongst our people is one of the fundamental cornerstones if we wish to achieve those lofty ideals of democracy, justice, equity, nonsexism and nonracialism. Essential ingredients on this challenging road to reconciliation are leadership, forgiveness, a conscious and constant effort by each citizen and achievements as a nation. In this regard, nothing is more important than achievements in the field of sport.

Our esteemed and much loved former President Nelson Mandela set us firmly on this road by his inspirational involvement in the 1995 Rugby World Cup and the 1996 African Cup of Nations. Who will ever forget the proud figure in the green and gold Number 6 jersey at Ellis Park, or his presence when we became the soccer champions of Africa? He appreciated the importance of sport, especially high-performance sport, in uniting the people of this country into one South African nation.

The role of Madiba was seen as exemplary, but should not detract from the sterling, groundbreaking role of the former Minister of Sport, the late Comrade Steve Tshwete. Even before 1994, Steve Tshwete was instrumental in opening the doors to world participation for South African sport. The result was that our teams’ participants had become used to international competition with the advent of our new democracy. Let us acknowledge his role in the transformation process at all levels.

On a personal level, I shall never forget how he reached out to white Afrikaners like myself. [Applause.] He put us back on the proverbial political playing field. We can now participate in the game, determine its flow and even assist in writing the rules of the game. In contrast, there are those who prefer to stand on the sidelines, criticise the game and seemingly take pleasure in telling one another how futile the exercise is.

Our Minister of Sport has mentioned to the active involvement in sport of President Thabo Mbeki, and his inspiring address to Bafana Bafana on the eve of their departure to Korea. We also know how immediately after Saturday’s victory, he telephoned them. Already we as a nation are uniting behind our team. Whatever the outcome of their next match, let us not detract from their achievements. Our fervour and passion are so often overshadowed by our criticism and condemnation of players and coaches alike. The number of rugby and soccer coaches we have had is no achievement. It is rather a sad reflection on us for apportioning blame and finding convenient scapegoats. It is also a sad reflection on society when some perverse satisfaction is experienced in trampling on an individual when he or she is down.

Die tragiese en ontydige dood van Hansie Cronjé tien dae gelede hou vir elkeen van ons ‘n dure les in. Hansie het die Proteas aangevoer na ongekende hoogtes en die beste spanne in die wêreld geklop. Wie sal die hartseer en teleurstelling van die halfeindstryd van die Krieketwêreldbeker teen Australië in 1999 ooit vergeet. Suid-Afrika was op die rand van ‘n oorwinning en Hansie was glo in trane daarna in die kleedkamer. Hy het egter sy spanmaats Lance Klusener en Alan Donald nie verwyt vir hulle swak oordeel nie. Hy het hulle vergewe en hulle opgebeur. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The tragic and untimely death of Hansie Cronjé ten days ago contains a costly lesson for each and everyone of us. Hansie led the Proteas to unprecedented heights and beat the best teams in the world. Who will ever forget the heartbreak and disappointment of the semi-final of the Cricket World Cup against Australia in 1999? South Africa was on the brink of victory and Hansie was apparently in tears in the locker room afterwards. However, he did not blame his team-mates Lance Klusener and Alan Donald for their poor judgment. He forgave them and cheered them up.]

Did we stand by Hansie in his hour of need? Yes, many of us forgave him in our hearts, but not by our deeds. The spontaneous outpouring of grief over the last 10 days is at least partly due to this indictment against each of us. I therefore wish to thank our hon Minister of Sport, Ngconde Balfour, and our hon Minister of Defence, Terror Lekota, for attending Hansie’s funeral. They did it for the entire world to see and acknowledge. Contrary to certain media reports, Minister Balfour always stood by Hansie.

A few months ago, a group of young people from Belgium visited Parliament. I arranged a meeting with our Minister, where he enthusiastically pointed to the cricket bat which has a place in his office and was given to him by his friend, Hansie Cronjé. I want to thank the Minister for giving substance to the concept of forgiveness on our path of reconciliation and nation-building. He rightly condemned Hansie’s deed, but without condemning the person. As a good parent he disciplines and forgives, but never disowns his child for transgressing.

My friend and comrade Patrick Chauke and I were privileged to be delegated to attend Hansie’s funeral. I happened to have Grey College as my alma mater. Grey College featured extensively in the last tribute to Hansie. As was the case with old boys as diverse as Bram Fischer, Albert Hertzog, Joel Mervis and Robie Leibbrandt, Grey never disowned Hansie. The lack of recognition of some dignitaries during the funeral ceremony, which was incidentally conducted by a promotions company elected by the family, was not meant as a slight. Grey College is at the forefront of the new South Africa and regrets any ill feeling. The service was touching and dignified. Hansie and his family deserved this. Hamba kahle, Hansie. South Africa will never forget you. [Applause.]

The role of sport as a common denominator has once again become tangible with the current Soccer World Cup in Korea and Japan. The interest and enthusiasm from the community from which I come is astonishing. Not only is there unprecedented interest in Bafana Bafana, but also the elation at Senegal’s victory over France was amazing. [[Applause.] We are indeed becoming a nation, because of our own common sense of being one and sharing a common destiny.

Sport sal ‘n deurslaggewende rol in die Afrika Renaissance speel. Ons sportmanne en -vroue sal die leiding neem met die daarstelling van die gemeenskaplike trots en identiteit. Vandag het ons sporthelde soos Maria Matola, Frank Fredericks, Ernie Els en baie ander.

Laat ons ook erkenning verleen aan een van die helde van eergister. Ek wil graag hulde bring aan daardie groot atleet, Loop-en-Val Motshwarateu, wat in November 2001 oorlede is nadat hy in ‘n rooftog geskiet is. Hy het in 1978 soos ‘n donderslag op die toneel verskyn toe hy Ewald Bonzet oor 5 000 m op Coetzenburg geklop het. Met sy eienaardige hardloopstyl het hy daarna sy baie bewonderaars met een oorwinning na die ander vermaak. In 1980 stel hy ‘n nuwe wêreldrekord op deur die 10 km-padwedloop in New York in 28 minute te voltooi. Sodoende word hy die eerste swart Suid-Afrikaanse atleet wat ‘n wêreldrekord agter sy naam skryf. Dit is tragies dat hy met sy afsterwe feitlik as ‘n armlastige oorlede is. Ons eer sy nagedagtenis. Hy was ‘n rolmodel vir soveel opkomende atlete. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Sport will play a decisive role in the African Renaissance. Our sportsmen and women will take the lead in the establishment of a common pride and identity. Today we have sporting heroes like Maria Matola, Frank Fredericks, Ernie Els and many others.

Let us also give recognition to one of the heroes of yesteryear. I would like to pay tribute to that great athlete, Loop-en-Val Motswarateu, who died in November 2001 after he was shot during a robbery. He appeared on the scene like a thunderbolt in 1978 when he beat Ewald Bonzet over 5 000 m at Coetzenburg. With his unusual running style, he went on to entertain his many fans with one victory after the other. In 1980 he set a new world record by completing the 10 km road race in New York in 28 minutes. In so doing he became the first black South African athlete to have a world record behind his name. It is tragic that at the time of his death he was virtually a pauper. We honour his memory. He was a role model for so many upcoming athletes.]

Sport will play an essential role in the African Renaissance. Africa, however, has a vast and untapped potential for sporting excellence. We need only to look at the achievements, past and present, of persons of African origin throughout the world. The performance of the great Jessie Owens at the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin, which discredited Hilter’s racist doctrine, as well as the achievements of Muhammed Ali, Magic Johnson, Sir Garfield Sobers and Tiger Woods all serve as cases in point.

The time has come for African talent to be developed and retained in Africa. Pride, honour and patriotism are important, but if we do not provide the right facilities and incentives, Africa will continue to lose its talent to the developed countries of the world. The development and interests of our sportspeople should be an integral part of Nepad. The talents and abilities of people such as Sarah Poewe, Pieter de Villiers, Andy Marinos and many others should be appreciated and nurtured in their countries of birth.

This is a challenge for Africa in general, and South Africa in particular. Investment in sport is an investment in our future. We believe that we are on the right track. Much more money will be needed if we wish to emulate the successes of countries such as Australia and Cuba. The different sports academies will play a vital role in this regard. I ask these academies to take themselves to the rural areas, and to take themselves to talent which can be identified. They should not be inaccessible.

Currently we are holding thumbs for the Soccer World Cup. Next year we will be hosting the Cricket World Cup, and later on participating in the Rugby World Cup. Later this year our athletes will participate in the Commonwealth Games. Our teams and individual sportspeople must be assured that as a nation we are right behind them. Their success is our success. The future is ours. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Mr Chairperson, very, very quickly because we have to go to the Marks Building, where there is a function in the dining hall. Everybody is welcome to attend.

We are sending a team from South Africa to the Commonwealth Games in Manchester. We have already announced that team, and we hope that everybody will support it. The MD of the 2003 Cricket World Cup, Dr Ali Bacher, is here, together with all the cricket people. Tomorrow they will be making a presentation to Cabinet on how the World Cup will be run, and with the support of Cabinet they will then know whether the Cricket World Cup is endorsed. [Applause.]

I would also like to congratulate the UCB on the restructuring that they have undertaken. The restructuring of cricket has really involved a lot of work. Omar Henry, Eric Simons and the national committee did this restructuring.

We are dealing with restructuring in the Eastern Cape and the UCB is on the right path. I was there last week and will be there again on Monday to finalise everything. Something I want to mention is that we have the report of what is going on there. The hon Lee does not know what is going on. The people gave me the report when I asked them what was going on there. I asked them: Have MPs like Mr Lee intervened or asked what is going on?'' They told me:That is a joke! Do not tell us that!’’ Let us just leave it at that.

I have also spoken about world surfing. The SA Games are coming up in September, and they are going to give a lot of youngsters on the periphery of selection a chance to go into the big league.

An hon member has spoken about provincial academies and I think we are on the right path, with the Sports Commission, to make sure that they take off properly and that they are accessible. There is the bigger one, the national academy of sport, which we will be setting up next year. We will come back to the portfolio committee to talk about it. This concept is exciting to me because I have seen it work in Australia, and it should work in this country as well.

I want to thank all the members that have participated. I do not want to respond issue-by-issue to what they have said, but I think all of them have contributed very positively to this debate.

I am a Presbyterian. I am a lay preacher in the Presbyterian Church. NdiyiNdodana, ngesiXhosa. [I am a lay preacher.] And I love that. So there are things that I do not want to respond to because … ziza kundenza ukuba ubuRhabe bam buhle noko [they will lower my dignity as a member of the Presbyterian congregation].

But, I would be wrong not to respond to some of them. There is a movie - I like movies - called Dumb and Dumber, starring Jim Carrey. If it could be redone I would get some actors from Parliament to feature in it and replace Jim Carrey - if I could be the director of that movie. Unfortunately, I am not a director. [Interjections.]

Very quickly, I do not know what we have to say to the hon Mr Groenewald. We have said many times and we will say it again: the speech of the President should be understood in the context in which it was made. Those who were there, such as Mr Frolick … [Interjections.] Hy was nie eens daar nie! [He was not even there!] Those who were there, such as Mr Frolick, understood that speech. But to explain to people who are on the set of Dumb and Dumber is a waste of energy. So I am not going to get into that.

The second point is, I am sure that when one talks about Bafana Bafana, one thinks of players like Hans Vonk, Pierre Issa, Bradley Carnell, George Koumantarakis … [Interjections.] No, no, no. Those are specific. I continue: One has Quinton Fortune, Bennie McCarthy, Delron Buckley, Andre Arendse, Lucas Radebe, Siyabonga Nomvete, Jabu Pule and what have you. What more do I have to say? I cannot say more than that. Only the movie Dumb and Dumber would suit some hon members. [Interjections.] I cannot explain more than I have, because doing so is wasting my time.

Lastly, we fought against management committees during the old system. There is a member here who served on those committees, and he used to lock the entrances to sportsfields in the Eastern Cape. That member is the hon Donald Lee. [Interjections.] Today he is the spokesperson of the very same people he used to prevent from using those sportsfields as a member of the then management committees. How hypocritical can one get? [Interjections.] One cannot be so hypocritical. He was serving his masters at that time, as he is serving them now. [Applause.]

He seldom goes to the Eastern Cape, hardly understands what is going on in the Eastern Cape, and he comes here as a big talker, speaking on behalf of people who see him as a joke. So I do not know what to say, really. If there was an award for the most hypocritical or the dumbest person in sport, I, definitely, would ask the President to give me a chance to make a nomination, and I know who I would nominate for the award. [Interjections.] So I cannot be going on with some of these things.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Minister, I am sorry, there is a point of order.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, is it parliamentary for the hon Lee to say that he is still going to lock them up? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, I never said that, and the Minister is telling a lie. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Lee, it is not parliamentary to say that the Minister is telling a lie. Could you withdraw that?

The MINISTER: Please apologise! [Interjections.] Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, it gives me great pleasure … [Interjections.] … to withdraw those words. In fact, the hon the Minister is telling half- truths.

The MINISTER: Chairperson, it is so nice to hear Jim Carrey say: ``I apologise.’’ [Laughter.] It is sweet. Let us go and have something to eat. I thank all the members. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Please take your seats.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 19:06 ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                         FRIDAY, 7 JUNE 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 6 June 2002 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a section 76
     Bill:


     (i)     Disaster Management Bill [B 21 - 2002] (National Assembly
          - sec 76).


 (2)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development
     submitted the Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Grondwet van die
     Republiek van Suid-Afrika [W 16 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec
     74) and the Tweede Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Grondwet van die
     Republiek van Suid-Afrika [W 17 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec
     74) to the Speaker and the Chairperson on 7 June 2002. This is the
     official translations of the Constitution of the Republic of South
     Africa Amendment Bill [B 16 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74)
     and the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second
     Amendment Bill [B 17 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74), which
     were introduced in the National Assembly by the Minister on 19
     April 2002.


 (3)    The Minister for Provincial and Local Government submitted the
     Wysigingswetsontwerp op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Strukture
     [W 22 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75) to the Speaker and the
     Chairperson on 7 June 2002. This is the official translation of
     the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 22 -
     2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), which was introduced in the
     National Assembly by the Minister on 15 May 2002.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Public Service and Administration, the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development and the Portfolio Committee
     on Safety and Security:


     A review of South Africa's National Anti-Corruption Agencies,
     Public Service Commission [RP 216-2002].


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Public Service and Administration:


     Ethics Survey for 2001 - Ethics in Practice, Public Service
     Commission.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the International Criminal Court Bill [B 42 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 7 June 2002:

 The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development,
 having considered the subject of the International Criminal Court Bill
 [B 42 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and
 classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill,
 presents the Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International
 Criminal Court Bill [B 42B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), and
 endorses the classification of the Bill as a section 75 Bill.


 The Committee wishes to report further, as follows:


 1.     Territorial jurisdiction of South African courts


     (a)     Clause 4 of the International Criminal Court Bill deals
          with the jurisdiction of South African courts in respect of
          the crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes
          which are created in the proposed legislation. Clause 4(3)
          more specifically sets out the circumstances in which the
          South African courts will have jurisdiction to hear cases
          against persons who are alleged to have committed one of the
          crimes in question if the crimes are alleged to have been
          committed outside the territory of the Republic, namely -


          *   if the perpetrator is a South African citizen;


          *   if the perpetrator is not a South African citizen but is
              ordinarily resident in the Republic;
          *   if the perpetrator is present in the Republic after the
              commission of the crime; and


          *   if the perpetrator has committed a crime against a South
              African citizen or against a person who is ordinarily
              resident in the Republic.


     (b)     The approach adopted in the Bill by giving South African
          courts extended jurisdiction to deal with crimes which were
          committed outside the territory of the Republic is similar to
          the Canadian legislation, among others, dealing with the
          International Criminal Court.


     (c)     It is understood that Belgium is the only country which,
          to date, has gone even beyond what South Africa and Canada
          have done in respect of jurisdiction, namely by giving the
          Belgian courts universal jurisdiction to deal with
          prosecutions instituted against persons who are alleged to
          have committed one of the above crimes. This, in effect, means
          that the Belgian courts can deal with cases in which the
          crimes in question have been committed by any person anywhere
          in the world.


     (d) The Committee expressed the view that the possibility of
          giving the South African courts universal jurisdiction to deal
          with the prosecutions under discussion, should be explored. It
          consequently requested the Department of Justice and
          Constitutional Development to -


          (i)   undertake the necessary research in this regard, taking
                all the implications of such an approach into
                consideration, particularly those of a financial nature
                and the difficulties which may arise as a result of
                competing requests from different countries; and


          (ii)  report back to the Committee within six months after the
                adoption of this Report by the National Assembly.


 2.  Enforcement of sentences of imprisonment in South African prisons


     (a) Article 103 of the Statute envisages States indicating their
          willingness to accept sentenced prisoners to serve their terms
          of imprisonment in their prisons. States which are willing to
          accept such sentenced prisoners will be placed on a list by
          the Court. At the time of indicating their willingness to
          accept sentenced prisoners, States are given the opportunity
          to spell out conditions pertaining to such acceptance. The
          Court will thereafter, in individual cases, designate
          particular States on the list for purposes of referring
          sentenced prisoners to serve their sentences. In order to give
          effect to this arrangement in the Statute, Clauses 31 and 32
          of the Bill, in brief, provide for the following:


          (i)   The Cabinet member responsible for correctional services
                must, in consultation with the Cabinet and with the
                approval of Parliament, decide, as soon as is
                practicable, whether South Africa should be placed on
                the list of States willing to accept sentenced
                prisoners and determine the conditions pertaining to
                such acceptance.


          (ii)  This decision must be submitted to the Court.


          (iii) Similar procedures apply in the event of South Africa
                wishing to revoke or vary such an acceptance.


          (iv)  Once South Africa has been placed on the above-mentioned
                list, the Court can designate South Africa as a State
                to accept a particular prisoner in a particular case
                for purposes of serving a sentence of imprisonment.
                This designation is referred, via the Central
                Authority, to the Cabinet member responsible for
                correctional services, who is given a discretion
                whether to accept the designation in question or not.


          (v)   The Court must be informed as soon as possible whether
                the designation is accepted or not.


          (vi)  A warrant of detention issued by the Court in respect of
                a person referred to South Africa for purposes of
                serving a sentence of imprisonment is deemed to be a
                valid warrant for the purposes of section 6 of the
                Correctional Services Act, 1998.


     (b) The Committee requests the Cabinet member responsible for
          correctional services to initiate an investigation, as soon as
          possible, into the possibility of placing South Africa on the
          list of States willing to accept sentenced prisoners for
          purposes of serving their sentences of imprisonment in South
          African prisons and, if so accepting, to determine the
          conditions pertaining to such acceptance, as contemplated in
          Clauses 31 and 32 of the Bill and, in the process thereof, to
          consider all possible implications thereof, particularly those
          of a financial nature.


 3.  Commencement of Bill


     The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court is scheduled
     to commence on 1 July 2002. With this in mind, Clause 5(2) of the
     Bill provides that no prosecution may be instituted against a
     person accused of having committed a crime if the crime in
     question is alleged to have been committed before the commencement
     of the Statute. The Committee requests the Department of Justice
     and Constitutional Development to make every effort to ensure that
     the proposed legislation can be put into operation on or before 1
     July 2002, also ensuring that the required subordinate legislation
     is prepared and promulgated timeously.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Insolvency Amendment Bill [B 14 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 7 June 2002:

 The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development,
 having considered the subject of the Insolvency Amendment Bill [B 14 -
 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by
 the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with
 amendments [B 14A - 2002], and endorses the classification of the Bill
 as a section 75 Bill.


 The Committee wishes to report further, as follows:


 1.  During its deliberations on the Bill, the Committee's attention was
     drawn to the NEDLAC Report on the Labour Law Amendment Bills
     (September 2001) and the fact that amendments to sections 4, 9, 11
     and 136 of the Insolvency Act, 1936 (Act No. 24 of 1936), agreed
     upon at NEDLAC, were not included in the Bill. These provisions
     deal with notice to trade unions and employees of applications for
     the sequestration of an employer's estate, service of court orders
     on trade unions and employees and the creation of an offence for
     failure to give certain notices.


 2.  According to the memorandum on the objects of the Bill, the
     proposed amendments to these provisions require amendments to
     other legislation, such as the Companies Act, 1973 (Act No. 61 of
     1973), and the Close Corporations Act, 1984 (Act No. 69 of 1984).
     The Committee has not taken a stand on this issue, but if this
     view were accepted as correct, it would follow that amendments to
     the Insolvency Act, 1936, only would apply to the insolvency of
     individual debtors and not to corporate debtors. A large
     percentage of cases where the problems aimed to be remedied by
     these amendments occur, are cases of corporate insolvent debtors.


 3.  The Committee's attention was drawn to the fact that proposed
     uniform legislation that deals with corporate and individual
     insolvencies is under consideration by the Department of Justice
     and Constitutional Development. The proposed legislation emanates
     from reports by the South African Law Commission and the Standing
     Advisory Committee on Company Law.


 4.  The Bill now under consideration by the Committee proposes
     amendments to sections 38 and 98A of the Insolvency Act, 1936.
     These sections apply to the insolvency of individual debtors as
     well as to companies and close corporations that are wound up
     because of insolvency. The main objects of the Bill are to further
     regulate the effect of sequestration on employment contracts and
     the claims for severance and retrenchment pay. The Committee is of
     the view that the Bill is not the appropriate mechanism to deal
     with notice to trade unions and employees of applications for the
     sequestration of an employer's estate, service of court orders on
     trade unions and employees and the creation of an offence for
     failure to give certain notices. Interested parties have not had
     an opportunity to make submissions to the Committee on these
     matters and the Committee has not taken any position on the
     acceptability of these provisions.


 5.  The Committee recommends that the Minister for Justice and
     Constitutional Development be approached to request his Department
     to consider the inclusion of the proposals dealing with notice to
     trade unions and employees of applications for the sequestration
     of an employer's estate, service of court orders on trade unions
     and employees and the creation of an offence for failure to give
     certain notices in the proposed uniform legislation that deals
     with corporate and individual insolvencies.

Report to be considered.

1. Third Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 16 May 2002:

 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having heard evidence in
 August last year from the new Commissioner of Correctional Services and
 the former acting Commissioner, now the chief financial officer, on the
 Report of the Auditor-General for the 1999-2000 financial year [RP117-
 00], and also having considered information received subsequent to the
 hearing, dated 25 October 2001, as well as written responses from the
 Commissioner to questions from the Committee arising from its review of
 the Auditor-General's Report on the financial statements for the 2000-
 2001 financial year [RP 148-01], dated 25 January 2002, and further
 responses dated 9 May 2002, reports as follows:


 A.  Recruitment and training


     The Committee is concerned about the following factors related to
     human resources that are negatively impacting on the capacity of
     the Department to deliver correctional services to the prison
     population of South Africa:


     1.  A lack of capacity to train the annual intakes of the
          Department.


     2.  Poor planning and administration associated with the
          utilisation of training facilities.


     3.  Poor planning in terms of training curricula and equipment.


     4.  Inadequate screening by the Department of new recruits,
          resulting in the subsequent discovery of recruits with
          fraudulent qualifications or criminal records.
     The Committee has noted the attempts to more effectively manage
     recruitment and screening processes, as well as to better plan the
     academic calendar and improve the training curricula. The
     Committee expects to see substantial progress reported in this
     regard in the annual reports in respect of the 2001-02 financial
     year. The Committee recommends that the Portfolio Committee on
     Correctional Services also note the matters raised and evaluate
     whether progress is made with respect to each of the areas of
     concern. It is also recommended that the Department demonstrate to
     the Committee and the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services
     the manner in which it effectively measures the total cost of
     training and how it determines the value gained from such an
     investment in training.


 B.  Jackson State University Scholarship Programme


     The Committee welcomes the termination of this Programme (with
     unjustifiably high costs to the taxpayer). The Committee
     recommends that the Department in future not only ensure that
     South African tertiary institutions are used for similar types of
     training, but also that participants in such programmes are
     contractually bound to the Department for at least as long as they
     have been assisted to study.


 C.  Computer audit


     The Committee noted with concern the weaknesses with regard to the
     general controls within the Admission and Release System, the
     Pharmaceutical System at the Department's head office and the
     Pretoria management area, and the application controls within the
     Provisioning Administration System. It is especially concerned at
     the lack of a separation of duties and the associated risk of
     fraud. The undertaking by the Department that the matter was
     receiving urgent attention, was therefore welcomed. The Committee
     recommends that the Auditor-General evaluate the progress made
     during the 2001-02 audit.


 D.  Internal control environment and risk management


     1.  The Committee noted that once again the Auditor-General
          reported a variety of symptoms of poor internal control, the
          following being examples:


          (a) Insufficient debtor management and debt recovery.


          (b) Poor checking of source documents at head office and poor
              batch control at various provincial offices.


          (c) Inadequate certification of payrolls.
          (d) Poor control of UIF payments and recording of
              contributions.


          (e) Incomplete reconciliations between the computerised
              financial management and personnel and salary systems.


          (f) The Committee was informed of the Department's intention
              to address each of the findings of the external auditors,
              as well as the internal auditors, at the highest
              management level.


          The Committee was further informed of disciplinary action
          taken against a number of officials who had not complied with
          control procedures. The Department also undertook that in
          future steps would be taken in every case of failure to comply
          with requirements of the Public Finance Management Act (the
          PFMA). In this regard, the Committee wishes to remind the
          Commissioner of his obligations in terms of section 81 of the
          PFMA, as well as the responsibilities of other officials in
          terms of section 45 of that Act.


          The Committee recommends that -


          (i)   the Commissioner report to the National Assembly on the
                success of Operation Vukuza in each of the respective
                provinces, and on how any deficiencies identified had
                been addressed.


          (ii)  the Commissioner indicate progress made with the
                capacitation of the internal audit unit, as well as any
                arrangements made for outsourcing.


          (iii) the Commissioner include the Audit Committee report to
                the House on the responsiveness by the Department's
                management to internal findings as well as the Audit
                Committee's recommendations regarding stricter
                monitoring mechanisms and the application of
                disciplinary procedures.


          The Committee further recommends that in his report for 2001-
          02 the Auditor-General specifically report on:


          (iv)  whether reliance could be placed on the work of the
                Department's internal auditors, and if not, indicate
                the main reasons for the non-reliance; and


          (v)   the responsiveness by the Department's management to the
                findings in his latest report.


     2.  The Committee was provided with information on the latest risk
          assessment exercise carried out by the Department. A list of
          the main areas of risk identified, was provided, as well as
          the measures, which at face value seemed to address each of
          the risk areas. In view of the various financial management
          problems reported by the Auditor-General, the Committee is
          deeply concerned that proper management of the financial
          resources of the Department was not identified as one of the
          priority risk areas.


          The Committee recommends that the Commissioner -


          (a) prioritise risk management and ensure that progress made
              in respect to each of the areas in terms of planned
              deadlines is monitored at least on a bimonthly basis, and
              that effective corrective measures are taken where
              required


          (b) provide impetus to certain of the risk management plans,
              e.g. drafting of the proposal on the development of human
              resources strategies, and the development of the inmate
              tracking system, so that finalisation of the actions be
              achieved sooner rather than later


          (c) regard financial management as one of the priority risk
              areas


          (d) provide each of 10 main risk areas a target date for
              finalisation of the corrective action.


 E.  Vehicle management


     The Committee is concerned at the management weaknesses with
     respect to government transport. It noted that the logistics
     directorate would be conducting a detailed analysis and inspection
     at 50 management areas during the coming year in order to deal
     with weaknesses more proactively.


     The Committee recommends that the Commissioner report on the
     results of the inspections and any corrective actions taken, the
     extent and outcomes of any disciplinary actions instituted against
     any staff members, and the completeness currently of the register
     of unauthorised drivers.


 F.  Stock and equipment


     The Committee has taken note of the barcoding system which had
     been implemented at national Head Office and of the fact that it
     will be rolled out to all the provinces.


     The Committee recommends that -
     1.  the Commissioner indicate the status of implementation of the
          barcoding system in each of the respective provinces


     2.  the effectiveness of the barcoding system throughout the
          Department be evaluated and reported on by the Auditor-General
          in the 2001-02 audit report.


 G.  Merit awards and members' qualifications


     The Committee noted the evidence in the Commissioner's
     correspondence of 25 January 2002 that no merit awards were paid
     without proper approval per a departmental merit list as source
     document.


     The Committee recommends that the Commissioner provide the House
     with -


     1.  a proper report on all cases investigated by the departmental
          task team appointed to investigate all cases of possible
          irregular merit awards in respect of the 1999-00 financial
          year


     2.  the results of the work carried out by the special task teams
          established in the various provinces to investigate possible
          fraudulent qualifications


     3.  the results of the recovery actions as a result of incorrect
          payment of merit awards planned for finalisation by 28 August
          2002


     4.  information as to whether the qualifications of all staff
          members have been verified.


 H.  Personnel Salary Administration System


     The Committee was informed that the Department had implemented a
     new Persal function which will meet all the Department's needs,
     including reliable information on staff members on suspension.
     The Committee recommends that the Auditor-General review and
     report on the effectiveness of the enhanced Persal system during
     the 2001-02 audit.


 I.  Medical Fringe Benefits


     1.  The Committee was informed that the Department may be liable
          for an amount of approximately R48,5 million to the SA Revenue
          Services in respect of outstanding PAYE. The Committee further
          noted that in January 2002 the matter had not been resolved,
          despite it having been raised in August 2000 already.


          (a) The Committee therefore recommends that both the SARS and
              the Department ensure that the matter be immediately
              resolved and the outcome be reported to the House within
              two months of the date of adoption of this Report by the
              National Assembly.


          (b) The Committee further recommends that the SARS, in
              consultation with the National Treasury, consider issuing
              appropriate guidelines to all public sector departments
              at national and provincial level regarding PAYE
              obligations in respect of all benefits or perks received
              from the employer with respect to, for example, free
              medical aid, free or subsidised housing, or other
              allowances to ensure compliance with the income tax
              legislation in all cases.


     1.  Medical Services (MEDCOR)


          The Committee noted that finality has not been reached with
          respect to the new administrator of the departmental medical
          scheme.
          The Committee recommends that the matter be finalised as a
          matter of urgency and progress be reported on to the House
          within two months of the adoption of this Report by the
          National Assembly.


 J.  Unauthorised expenditure


     1.  Par 2.2.1(a), [RP 117-00] (1999-00 financial year)


          The Auditor-General reported that expenditure totalling R534
          486,93 incurred during various financial years was regarded as
          unauthorised in terms of section 33 of the Exchequer Act, 1975
          (Act No. 66 of 1975), and comprised the following:


          (a) Development and provision of computer-based assessment
              instrument, R107 713,08


              The Department engaged a consultant from a university
              through a tender to lead a research and development
              project. Due to a lack of appropriate co-ordination and a
              misunderstanding over the tasks and responsibilities of
              various partner directorates in the Department,
              additional professional expertise was utilised. The
              authorised tender amount was consequently overspent by
              more than 100% without prior approval form the State
              Tender Board. The State Tender Board was approached for
              ex post facto approval on 26 July 1999, but approval was
              not granted and the said amount is regarded as
              unauthorised.


              The Committee was informed that no action was taken
              against the staff responsible, on the grounds that they
              were no longer in the service of the Department.


              The Committee recommends that the Parliamentary Law
              Advisers be requested to advise on the feasibility of the
              accounting officer attempting to recover any possible
              loss to the State, in order for the Committee to consider
              validation of the unauthorised expenditure.


          (b) Maintenance contract, R243 577,94 (R1,367,22 in 1999-00)


              During the previous financial year payments amounting to
              R1 367 225 relating to a maintenance contract were made
              after the contract had expired and without the approval
              of the State Tender board. During the year under review
              additional unauthorised expenditure of R243 577,94 was
              incurred in this regard. As in the previous year, the
              State Tender Board was approached for ex post facto
              approval, but approval was not granted and the said
              amount was regarded as unauthorised by the Auditor-
              General.


              The Committee was informed that after a departmental
              enquiry, disciplinary action was taken against two of the
              three officials responsible. The Committee was also
              informed that an enhanced contract management policy has
              been implemented under the direction of the Good
              Governance Chief Directorate, but that full
              implementation could not be confirmed.


              In view of the aforementioned action taken, the Committee
              recommends that -
              *   the Auditor-General evaluate the effectiveness of the
                   contract management policy


              *   the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services be
                   requested to monitor the implementation of the
                   procurement and provisioning system of the
                   Department, in the light of the requirements of
                   section 38(1)(iii) of the PFMA


              *   the unauthorised expenditure in respect of both
                   financial years is approved by the National Assembly.


          (c) Appointment of board of inquiry: Pollsmoor management
              area, R183 195,91


              The Minister of Correctional Services ruled that a board
              of inquiry had to be appointed to investigate the
              violence at the Pollsmoor management area in 1997. The
              total cost of the investigation exceeded the authorised
              amount in terms of the prescribed State Tender Board
              regulations. The State Tender Board did not grant ex post
              facto approval, and the amount of R183 195,91 was
              therefore regarded as unauthorised.


              The Committee was informed that no action was taken
              against the staff member responsible on the grounds that
              he or she was no longer in the service of the Department.


              The Committee recommends that the Parliamentary Law
              Advisers be requested to advise on the feasibility of the
              accounting officer attempting to recover any possible
              loss to the State, in order for the Committee to consider
              validation of the unauthorised expenditure.


     2.  Par 3.6, p 130 [RP148-01] (2000-01) (see 25/1/02, p 17 & 18


          In his Report on the 2000-01 financial year the Auditor-
          General reported expenditure totaling R773 873,11 incurred
          during various financial years as unauthorised in terms of
          section 33 of the repealed Exchequer Act, 1975 (Act No. 66 of
          1975), comprising the following:


          (a) Strategic planning sessions, R723 873,11


              The Auditor-General performed a forensic audit regarding
              expenditure relating to certain strategic planning
              sessions, and a final report was submitted to the
              Department on 14 February 2001. According to the forensic
              report, there were severe restrictions on the
              investigation, as many documents including timesheets and
              invoices were not available. According to the report
              unauthorised expenditure incurred with regard to
              strategic planning services and travelling expenditure
              relating thereto for the period 1 June 1992 to 31 may
              1995, amounted to R508 666,19 and R215 206,92,
              respectively.


              The Committee was informed that no action was taken
              against the staff member responsible on the grounds that
              he or she was no longer in the service of the Department.


              The Committee recommends that the Parliamentary Law
              Advisers be requested to advise on the feasibility of the
              accounting officer attempting to recover any possible
              loss to the State.


          (b) Psychological counselling of members: Pietermaritzburg
              management area, R50 000


              During a visit to the Pietermaritzburg prison the former
              Minister of Correctional Services ordered that the prison
              be closed down and its members and prisoners transferred.
              Members at the prison vowed to oppose an order to close
              down the prison. Relationships were tense and mass action
              was threatening. Since actions by the Department to
              defuse the situation did not yield positive results, the
              provincial commissioner in KwaZulu-Natal made an
              application to head office to obtain the services of two
              external psychologists to attend to the problem. Due to a
              dire need for assistance to defuse the tense situation,
              the correct procedure for urgent cases was not followed.


              The State Tender Board was approached for ex post facto
              approval on 17 and 30 March 2000, but approval was not
              granted and the said amount is regarded as unauthorised.


              The Committee was informed that disciplinary action had
              been taken against the official responsible, and that
              provisioning administration officers are now trained
              regarding procedures in cases of urgency.


              In view of the above actions taken, the Committee
              recommends that the unauthorised expenditure in question
              be authorised by Parliament, but that the accounting
              officer ensure that in future unauthorised and irregular
              expenditure are correctly disclosed in the financial
              statements.


     3.  The Committee further recommends that the Commissioner ensure
          that in future -


          (a) upon the resignation or retirement of staff members from
              the Department, any related potential or pending
              enquiries or disciplinary actions are appropriately
              resolved


          (b) all unauthorised, irregular or fruitless and wasteful
              expenditure be properly recorded in the accounts of the
              Departments and accurately disclosed in the financial
              statements to the National Assembly.


     4.  Unauthorised expenditure of R29 253 730 (1998-99)


          Having considered further information submitted to it by the
          former acting Commissioner during 2001, the Committee
          recommends as follows:


          (a) With regard to the unauthorised medical expenditure
              totalling R27 429 482 relating to a contract for medical
              aid administration without the appropriate tender
              procedures having been followed, the Committee has been
              informed that a proper service was rendered to the
              Department and that no one had unduly benefitted. The
              Committee therefore recommends that the amount be
              authorised by the National Assembly.


          (b) This Committee cannot condone the payment of awards of
              R109 293 to the former Commissioner in the circumstances
              in which it had taken place. The Committee has further
              been informed that an amount of R60 111 was recovered
              from the former Commissioner. The Committee recommends
              that the Accounting Officer initiate the necessary steps
              to recover any part of the amount in question that may
              still be outstanding from the relevant beneficiary. The
              Committee further recommends that the matter be resolved
              as far as possible within the next six months and that
              the outcome be reported to the National Assembly.


          (c) Unauthorised expenditure totalling R347 730 was incurred,
              which related to repairs and maintenance as well as
              capital improvements amounting to R147 591 and R200 139
              for the 1996-97 and 1997-98 financial years,
              respectively, before proper transfer of the property to
              the State. As a service was rendered to the Department
              and no one had unduly benefitted, the Committee
              recommends that the amount be authorised by the National
              Assembly.


 K.  Computer audit


     The Committee was informed of a number of control deficiencies
     with regard to the Department's provisioning administration
     system, as well as corrective measures taken by the Department in
     response to the weaknesses identified by the Auditor-General.
     The Committee recommends that the Auditor-General review the
     effectiveness of the corrective measures during the next computer
     audit planned for the Department of Correctional Services.


 L.  Housing guarantees


     The Committee heard evidence that the Department was pursuing
     legal action where possible to recover debt to the State with
     respect to housing guarantees.


     The Committee strongly encourages the Commissioner to continue
     with legal actions and to explore every possible avenue aimed at
     limiting the loss to the State before considering writing off any
     of these debts.


 Report to be considered.

                        MONDAY, 10 JUNE 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 10 June 2002 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a section 76
     Bill:


     (i)     Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial
          Legislatures Bill [B 25 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 (a)    Revised National Curriculum Statement Grades R-9 (Schools)
     Policy 2002 (Overview Document).


 (b) Revised National Curriculum Statement Grades R-9 (Schools) Policy
     2002 (Learning Area Statements).


 (c) Annual Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council
     for Educators for 2001.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on Budget Vote 5: Provincial and Local Government, dated 10 June 2002:

 The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, having
 considered Budget Vote 5: Provincial and Local Government, reports as
 follows:


 A.  Introduction


     1.  The budget review of the Ministry and the Department of
          Provincial and Local Government was undertaken from 23 to 26
          April 2002.


     2.  Those who appeared before the Committee included Minister F S
          Mufamadi, Deputy Minister N Botha, Acting Director-General Mr
          C Clerihew, Deputy Directors-General Mr E Africa and Ms J
          Manche, Chief Directors Mr L Buys, Ms G Gumbi-Masilela, Ms T
          Mketi, Ms B Mogane-Ramahotswa, Ms L Mosia, Mr D Powell, Mr T
          Seboka and Mr S Selesho, Directors Mr A P Botha, Ms S Dzengwa,
          Ms K Harrison, Mr T S Malaka, Mr B Marrian, Mr R Mosiane, Mr M
          Nkasawe, Mr Y Patel and Ms Y Silimela.


     3.  The National House of Traditional Leaders was represented by
          its Chairperson Inkosi M B Mzimela, Deputy Chairperson Morena
          M Mopeli, and members Kgoshi M Malekane, Kgoshi C Mathebe,
          Nkosi M Matanzima and Chief Executive Officer Mr L Molubi. The
          delegation from the Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit
          (MIIU) consisted of the Chairperson of the Board, Ms M
          Hesketh, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Mr J Leigland, and
          Project Manager, Ms D Magugumela. The Municipal Demarcation
          Board was represented by its Chairperson, Dr M Sutcliffe and
          Manager, Mr H Monare. Local Government Water and Related
          Services SETA was represented by its Chairperson, Mr S Mqaka,
          Deputy Chairperson Mr J Mohlala and Chief Executive Officer,
          Mr A Machin. The South African Local Government Association
          (SALGA) was represented by Councillor J Mohlala, CEO Mr T
          Mokwena and Managers Mr M Mabusela and Mr J Mettler.


     4.  A full-day workshop was held with the Department on 26
          February 2002, at which the programmes, plans and strategies
          of the Department were discussed. This served as a precursor
          to the budget review.


 B.  Minister's Overview


     1.  The Minister explained that the President's "State of the
          Nation Address" informs the Ministry's and the Department's
          programmes for the year. The Department's work would
          contribute to advancing government's work which is centred
          around the interrelated themes of (i) pushing back the
          frontiers of poverty; (ii) overcoming underdevelopment; and
          (iii) achieving higher rates of investment and growth.


     2.  The Minister explained that the President's Coordinating
          Council (PCC), which met in December 2001, enabled the three
          spheres of government to review progress on the establishment
          of the new system of local government. The PCC noted
          appreciable progress in this regard, but also identified
          challenges which require immediate attention. Consequently,
          the Department is drafting a revised programme of support for
          local government for adoption by Cabinet. The key elements of
          the programme include:


          (a) Facilitating greater national and provincial government
              assistance to municipalities to cope with the
              transformation.


          (b) Ensuring greater coordination between the programmes and
              projects of national and provincial departments and IDPs.


          (c) Ensuring that programmes such as LED (Local Economic
              Development) and CMIP (Consolidated Municipal
              Infrastructure Programme) contribute more to stimulating
              local economies.


     3.  The Minister emphasised the importance of the ISRDP
          (Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme) and the
          URP (Urban Renewal Programme) and the need for effective
          cooperation between all three spheres of government and
          traditional leaders to ensure their successful implementation.


     4.  The Minister explained that discussions were underway to
          explore the possibilities of including municipal staff as part
          of the country's public service. This would encourage mobility
          between the three spheres of government.


     5.  The Minister stressed the importance of "volunteerism" in this
          "The Year of the Volunteer" and the need for ordinary people
          to take greater control over their own lives. For its part,
          the Department would be taking a much more "hands-on" approach
          to delivery in future.


 C.  Strategic Planning Process and Restructuring of Department


     1.  Consistent with the requirements of the PFMA (Public Finance
          Management Act), the Department has finalised a Strategic Plan
          for 2002-2005. This will be followed by a Business Plan.


     2.  The further restructuring of the Department will take place in
          terms of the Strategic Plan. There has been a significant
          increase in staff. However, the Department has "under-spent"
          on its personnel budget for 2001/02 by 23,7%. The main reason
          for this was the delay in filling vacant posts caused mainly
          by the need to conduct job evaluation for every management
          post.


     3.  The Department has a current staff complement of 208. 56% of
          the Department's staff is female. However, at senior
          management level, women make up only 20%. White and African
          women make up almost 50% each of this 20%. The 80% men in
          senior management comprise 35% African, 35 % White and 10%
          Coloured. The Department has three staff members with
          disabilities. This falls short of the 5% target government has
          set for departments. The Department is finalising its internal
          employment equity plan as part of its strategic planning
          process.


     4.  The Department's internal skills audit has just been finalised
          and the Department is now developing an internal capacity-
          building programme.


     5.  The Committee welcomes the Strategic Plan as it provides a
          clearer form and structure for the Department's programmes and
          activities and for the Committee's oversight role. The
          Committee feels however that the Strategic Plan needs to be
          more specific, especially in terms of measurable objectives
          and outcomes. The Plan should also be more explicit about how
          the Department's work contributes to the key goals of
          government as a whole, including economic growth, job-
          creation, development and redistribution.


     6.  The Committee welcomes improvements in the social composition
          of the Department. It notes with concern, however, the
          inadequate representation of women in the senior management
          echelons.


     7.  The Committee notes that the post of Director General of the
          Department has not yet been filled, and urges that this be
          done expeditiously.


     8.  The Committee welcomes the Department's commitment to
          strengthening its capacity-building programme. The majority in
          the Committee feels that it is not just technical capacity
          that must be developed, but also a better understanding of the
          goals, political values, perspectives, strategies and
          programmes of the government as a whole that is urgently
          necessary. The Committee welcomes the Minister's statement
          that the Department needs to have a more "hands-on" approach
          to its responsibilities.


 D.  Overview of Budget and Programmes
     1.  The Programmes of the Department are: (i) Administration; (ii)
          Governance and Development; (iii) Institutional Reform and
          Support; and (iv) Auxiliary and Associated Services.


     2.  The Ministry and the Department of Provincial and Local
          Government have been allocated R6385 million for the 2002/03
          financial year, which is an increase of 34,8% in nominal terms
          (30% in real terms). The increases are 34,8%, 22,4% and 8,1%
          over the MTEF (Medium Term Expenditure Framework) period.


     3.  Most significant is the increase to local government.
          Transfers to local government go up by 18,3% over the three-
          year MTEF period. The allocation for the current financial
          year rises to R8, 5 billion from last year's R6,4 billion.
          Included in this is the "equitable share" of R3, 8 billion and
          conditional grants of R2, 4 billion.  The 2002-3 budget shifts
          resources towards the provision of basic infrastructure and
          services at local level. The Department therefore has to
          facilitate significantly more service delivery.


     4.  The Committee welcomes the increases in the budget,
          particularly for local government. The Committee is pleased
          too that, unlike last year, district municipalities will be
          receiving funds from the "equitable share". Of course, the
          allocation to local government is still not adequate. The
          Committee does not believe, however, that the answer lies in
          flinging more money at local government. Municipalities have
          to make more effort to raise the revenue due to them from
          their own sources, spend money more strategically and
          productively, and manage their finances better. Over time,
          however, national government will have to allocate more money
          to local government if local government is to fulfil its
          increasing responsibilities. The Department too now has more
          responsibilities to fulfil with its bigger budget, and needs
          to further develop its capacity to spend and allocate its
          budget more effectively.


     5.  In future budget oversight hearings, the Committee would like
          the Department to more clearly set out the relationship
          between its Strategic Plan and its budget.


     6.  The Committee welcomes the "clean bill of health" for the
          2000/01 financial year the Department received from the
          Auditor General's Office.


 E. Legislative Programme


     1.  The Department hopes to introduce the following legislation
          this year:


          (a) Disaster Management Bill.


          (b) Property Rates Bill.


          (c) Municipal Structures Amendment Bill.


          (d) Legislation on Traditional Leadership and Institutions.


          (e) Local Government Laws Amendment Bill.


          (f) Amendment to Sections 100 and 139 of the Constitution.


          (g) Legislation emanating from Section 41 of the Constitution.


          (h) Repeal of Outdated Local Government Legislation.
 F. Integrated Governance: Intergovernmental Relations (IGR), Co-
     Operative Governance, Provincial Systems


     1.  The Department emphasised the importance of integrated
          governance to ensuring improvements in planning, service
          delivery and development.


     2.  The Department is preparing legislation on IGR
          (Intergovernmental Relations) and cooperative governance, as
          required by section 41 of the Constitution. Among other
          things, the legislation will deal with enhancing the role of
          local government in executive intergovernmental process.  The
          Department is also working with National Treasury to prepare
          constitutional amendments relating to interventions in
          municipalities experiencing major financial difficulties
          within a framework for monitoring, support and interventions.
     3.  The Department is to review the Schedule 4 and 5 powers and
          functions of the spheres of government set out in the
          Constitution.


     4.  The Committee feels that integrated governance is key to
          achieving the major goals of government. While it notes the
          progress in this regard, it feels that more needs to be done.
          The Committee feels that the success of the ISRDP and URP
          depend crucially on integrated governance - and the success of
          these programmes will also serve to enhance integrated
          governance. An important barometer of integrated governance
          therefore will be progress on the ISRDP and URP. The Committee
          believes that a review of the Schedule 4 and 5 powers and
          functions of the spheres of government is important, and is to
          seek a briefing from the Department on the matter later in the
          year.
 G. ISRDP (Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme) and URP
     (Urban Renewal Programme)


     1.  To oversee the implementation of the ISRDP and URP, provincial
          political structures made up of premiers and MECs, and nodal
          political structures consisting of Executive Mayors have been
          established.


     2.  Over 120 ISRDP projects worth R3,7 billion were identified in
          November 2001 using the Interim IDP (IIDPs) processes and
          through consultative workshops. A further 122 priority
          projects worth R584 million were identified for this financial
          year. Of these, 48% are currently being implemented while 52%
          are in the planning stages. The Department of Labour has made
          available R18 million for skills development. UNDP provides
          assistance with monitoring and evaluation to the tune of
          US$350 000. Various parastatals and donor agencies have shown
          interest in supporting the programme.


     3.  Of the 110 anchor URP projects compiled by the Department,
          63,6% are still in the preparatory stage, 29% are completed
          and 7,4% are still to commence. Examples of planned URP
          projects include Galeshewe Cultural Village in Kimberly,
          Mitchell's Plain Town Centre and Alexandra Jukskei Greening.


     4.  Part of the funding for the ISRDP and URP comes from the
          Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme (CMIP) and the
          "equitable share". Each project is separately administered and
          has to have a business plan. For instance the Alexandra URP
          nodal project is audited with World Bank assistance. The
          Department has also embarked on mobilising private sector and
          other stakeholders to assist with the programmes.


     5.  The Committee feels that it is vital that the ISRDP and URP
          are a success. Their effective implementation requires not
          just the involvement of government, but public representatives
          in all three spheres, the private sector, trade unions,
          community organisations, non-governmental organisations and a
          range of civil society organisations, as well as ordinary
          people. The Committee believes that MPs living in or servicing
          the nodal areas should actively monitor and contribute to the
          implementation of the ISRDP and URP. The Minister should also
          consider writing to the relevant MPs to seek their appropriate
          contribution. The Committee also feels that there should be
          more communication through the media about the ISRDP and URP.
     6.  The Committee feels that it is difficult to evaluate progress
          on the ISRDP and URP at this stage. It accepts that these are
          complex and challenging programmes that cannot be implemented
          overnight. The Committee is keen to consider a more
          comprehensive progress report on the ISRDP and URP later in
          the year. It is also keen to get a better sense of the funding
          arrangements for these programmes. The Committee will also
          consider visiting the nodal areas next year.


 H. CMIP (Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme), LED (Local
     Economic Development) and Social Plan Fund


     1.  The CMIP was established in 1998 as an infrastructure
          programme to address backlogs in service delivery. The LED was
          established in 1999 as a poverty alleviation programme to
          facilitate local economic growth. The Department has decided
          to merge the two programmes to have a coordinated approach.
          The allocation to CMIP has increased from R1034m last year to
          R1769,5m this year, an increase of 71%.


     2.  The LED Fund has funded 186 projects to the value of R186
          million. It has created 3 215 permanent jobs. Through the
          fund, 99 738 person days of temporary employment have been
          created and 8 293 people trained on various projects. The
          Department has identified over 80 new projects for the 2002/03
          financial year.


     3.  The Social Plan Fund is an outcome of the 1998 Presidential
          Jobs Summit. It was established in 1999 to provide
          municipalities with financial assistance to undertake local
          economic regeneration studies. During the last financial year,
          the Plan provided funding to six municipalities. Following a
          review of the fund, eight rural nodes have been allocated
          money for this financial year.


     4.  The combined CMIP and LED funds will be utilised to develop a
          National Infrastructure Investment Framework; strengthen the
          role of the Municipal Infrastructure Task Team; provide
          national strategy for addressing infrastructure backlogs; and
          facilitate a single infrastructure funding mechanism. Both
          programmes will undergo extensive external evaluation to
          consider their impact.


     5.  The Committee welcomes the merging of the two programmes. The
          committee is pleased that the CMIP budget has been increased
          by 71%. It is concerned, however, about whether the Department
          will be able to allocate its full CMIP funds to
          municipalities, especially in view of its inability to
          allocate its full CMIP budget in the past two financial years.
          The Department explained that there were many sound reasons
          for this "under-spending", including the slow process of
          project approval and implementation by both provincial
          government and municipalities. However, the Department is
          determined to overcome the obstacles and allocate the full
          CMIP budget during this financial year. The Committee is keen
          to see this happen and will be monitoring the progress.


 I.  Local Government Transformation


     1.  The Department reported that it is constantly monitoring and
          actively contributing to the local government transformation
          process. Among the many areas in which it is working are the
          consolidation of IDPs (Integrated Development Plans),
          establishment of performance management systems, finalisation
          of the division of powers and functions between local and
          district municipalities, determination of the fiscal powers of
          local and district municipalities, and review of the local
          government financial system (including the "equitable share",
          the property rates system, the RSC levy, and the implications
          of the restructuring of electricity industry).


     2.  The Department accepts that the transitional arrangements in
          regard to the division of powers and functions between
          district and local municipalities, while necessary, make for
          uncertainty. The finalisation of the division is necessary to
          ensure proper planning, budgeting, setting up institutional
          structures and attending to other key aspects of the
          transformation. The Department has set up an Inter-
          Departmental Task Team (IDTT), including SALGA, the Finance
          and Fiscal Commission, and Municipal Demarcation Board to
          undertake a detailed assessment of the capacities of
          municipalities and their service delivery arrangements. The
          IDTT report has taken into account the views of all
          stakeholders. The Department is presently undertaking a series
          of bilateral consultations with the Departments of Health,
          Water Affairs and Forestry, Minerals and Energy, and National
          Treasury. Through this process consensus is emerging. It is
          envisaged that the division of powers and functions will be
          finalised by May 2003.


     3.  The City Support and Learning Network has been established to
          bring together the 9 major municipalities, including the 6
          metropolitan municipalities, so that they can learn from each
          others' experiences and support each other.


     4.  The Department is developing guidelines on the establishment
          of ward committees. It recognises, of course, that a number of
          ward committees have already been established. The Department
          is looking into the possibility of the Imbizo concept used by
          provincial and national government being extended to local
          government.


     5.  In co-operation with the MDB, the Department is investigating
          the specific problems of cross-boundary municipalities and
          exploring various options to deal with the problems.


     6.  About 55% of the country's population is receiving free basic
          water services. There are 10 pilot projects on the provision
          of free basic electricity. The Department explained that there
          are problems of logistics, infrastructure, capacity and
          funding that are determining the pace of progress, especially
          in respect of electricity.


     7.  The Department is to develop policy frameworks to regulate the
          remuneration of councillors and senior managers of
          municipalities. This will be an interactive process with the
          relevant role players.


     8.  The Committee recognises the magnitude of the local government
          transformation underway and the many challenges that have to
          be contended with. It is acutely aware that the Department
          alone cannot meet these challenges. SALGA, provincial
          governments, public representatives, municipalities, trade
          unions, the private sector, NGOs, CBOs, local government
          professionals and other sections of civil society, as well as
          ordinary residents, have important roles to play. The
          Committee itself should be doing more to contribute to the
          transformation.


     9.  While recognising the challenges, and the important role of
          other stakeholders, the Committee feels that the Department
          should be contributing more effectively to the local
          government transformation. There is a need for greater clarity
          on issues around the strategy, programmes, targets and time-
          frames of the Department's local government transformation
          work. The Department could also be playing a more effective
          coordinating role of the key stakeholders in the local
          government transformation process. The Committee is pleased to
          learn that there has been significant progress in finalising
          policy on the distribution of powers and functions between
          local and district municipalities and that the Department has
          the support of all the key stakeholders. As this is a matter
          of such importance, this progress should be communicated
          publicly.


     10. While it is understandable, given the infrastructure
          disparities, the Committee is concerned that the free basic
          water service is being provided largely to urban residents,
          and hopes that more rural residents will receive the service
          soon as well. The Committee is also concerned at the cutting
          off of water services to residents who cannot afford to pay,
          and urges the Department to contribute to exploring practical
          ways of resolving the issues of arrears in payments and free
          services. The Committee will seek to arrange a joint meeting
          with the Waters Affairs and Minerals and Energy Portfolio
          Committees.


     11. While recognising the sensitivities of the issues, the
          Committee feels appropriate consideration should be given to
          reviewing the boundaries of the provinces as a way of
          resolving the difficulties posed by cross-boundary
          municipalities.


     12. While recognising the restraints of funds, resources and
          capacity, the Committee feels that provincial governments
          could do more to assist municipalities to effect
          transformation.


     13. The Committee believes that the Department should do more to
          assist SALGA to play a more effective role - and that this can
          be done in a way that does not intrude on SALGA's autonomy.


     14. The Committee believes that it is absolutely crucial for the
          success of the local government transformation that an
          effective capacity-building strategy is implemented and that
          an appropriate system of local government finances is
          developed. These are urgent needs - and the Committee believes
          they should be expeditiously attended to. The Committee, once
          again, expresses its concern about the financial implications
          of the restructuring of the electricity industry - and
          requests the Department to intervene appropriately.


     15. The Committee feels that there is not a sufficiently concrete
          sense of progress in regard to the local government
          transformation process - and is keen to pursue this further
          with the Department later in the year. The Committee is also
          to undertake a study tour of municipalities in the second half
          of the year.


     16. The majority in the Committee feels that there is a need for
          further careful consideration of councillor remuneration. One
          of the issues that needs to be addressed is the significant
          gap in remuneration between full-time and part-time
          councillors. There are also difficulties that flow from ward
          councillors being part-time while PR councillors are full-
          time. Obviously the national budget is under considerable
          strain, but over time, consideration has to be given to
          whether it might be appropriate for councillors remuneration
          to be paid for either in full or part from the national
          budget. Over the longer term, with increasing responsibilities
          being imposed on local government to ensure delivery and
          development, there also needs to be an open debate about
          whether the gap between public representatives in the local,
          provincial and national spheres should not be significantly
          reduced, so as to allow for easier mobility of representatives
          between the three spheres (although this will serve to
          increase the gap between full-time and part-time councillors).
          Of course, in suggesting these debates occur over time, the
          Committee is acutely aware of the stringent constraints on the
          budget and other difficulties, and that it will take quite
          some time before these issues can be fully addressed.


 J.     Local Government Capacity-Building


     1.  The Department explained that it recognises the importance of
          having an intensive local government capacity-building
          programme to ensure that the new local government model is
          effectively implemented and is working with other relevant
          stakeholders in this regard. The December 2001 meeting of the
          PCC resolved that municipalities should receive "hands-on
          support from national and provincial governments within a
          framework of clear transformation targets and deadlines".
          (Deleted reference to joint World Bank project as it could not
          be verified). The Department is also finalising special
          support programmes for the two new metropolitan municipalities
          - Ekurhuleni and Nelson Mandela - with the assistance of the
          Cities Network programme.


     2.  The Committee believes that it is extremely vital that the
          capacity-building programmes for local government be
          intensified and more effectively implemented. The success of
          the local government transformation depends crucially on a
          significant improvement in levels of capacity. It is not only
          technical capacity that has to be improved, but there also has
          to be a focus on political capacity and the need for a
          particular work-orientation. The Committee repeats its concern
          at the lack of co-ordination between all the stakeholders
          responsible for local government capacity-building, and urges
          that this be attended to expeditiously. The Committee feels
          that it might be appropriate for the Department to see its
          role as primarily that of co-ordinating. SALGA should take
          primary responsibility for building the capacity of
          councillors and the LGWSETA (Local Government, and Water
          Sector Education Training Authority) should focus primarily on
          personnel training. The Committee is keen to organise a full
          briefing on local government capacity-building with the key
          stakeholders in the second half of this year.


 K.     Traditional Leadership and Institutions


     1.  The Department explained that it recognises the importance of
          finalising policy and legislation on traditional leadership
          and institutions. The President, in his "State of the Nation"
          address made it very clear that there will be significant
          progress in this regard this year.


     2.  The Department intends to finalise the White Paper on
          Traditional Leadership and Institutions by July 2002 and to
          introduce legislation later this year. The interim bill on the
          powers and functions of traditional leaders in local
          government will not be re-introduced. National framework
          legislation will be introduced, which will allow provinces to
          formulate their own legislation.


     3.  The Department continues to offer support to the National
          House of Traditional Leaders and recently established a task
          team to address the specific concerns of the House. The term
          of the House is to expire soon and the Department is assisting
          with preparations for the inauguration of the new House.


     4.  The Department is at present considering a report dealing with
          the Khoisan communities.


     5.  Of course, the majority in the Committee appreciates the
          complexities and difficulties in attending to issues of
          traditional leaders and institutions, but would like to see
          significant progress this year, and urges that the Department
          fulfils the deadlines it has set in this regard. The Committee
          would also like to see greater progress in addressing the
          concerns of the Khoisan communities as well.


 L.  Disaster Management


     1.  The Department expects that parliament will pass the Disaster
          Management Bill by June this year. The bill seeks to provide a
          uniform and co-ordinated approach to disaster management in
          the country. It shifts the focus from managing disasters to
          prevention and mitigation. It is envisaged that the Disaster
          Management Framework as required by the Bill will be developed
          by February 2003. By March 2003 a process of assessing
          capacities of municipalities and provinces will be launched
          with a view to implementing sections of the Bill. SALGA has
          commissioned a study to determine which sections of the Bill
          can be immediately implemented.


     2.  The Department is negotiating for some sections of the
          Fundraising Act to be transferred to it for easy access during
          disasters. NGOs have been approached to provide relief
          operations on agency basis when the need arises. The
          Department will also be in consultation with the LGWSETA on
          disaster management capacity-building and training.


     3.  The Department is part of developing a SADC Cross-border
          assistance framework, a Standing Operational Procedures Manual
          for Relief Operations, and an initiative to relax protocols
          that pose logistical cross border constraints.


     4.  The Committee welcomes the progress on disaster management.


 M.  South African Local Government Association (SALGA)


     1.  SALGA's allocation has increased from R16 million last year to
          R22 million this financial year. SALGA explained that the R22
          million will serve merely to meet the expenses of personnel,
          travelling, and meetings. According to a tentative budget it
          had drawn to meet the costs of its proposed programmes, SALGA
          needs R120 million. It intended to draw these extra funds from
          its provincial affiliates. At present the provinces raise R30
          million.


     2.  SALGA is undertaking an audit of municipalities to establish
          progress on the local government transformation process and
          the report on this will be presented to Parliament. SALGA is
          embarking on a plan to play a more active role in the
          implementation of the ISRDP and URP. SALGA is actively engaged
          with the Department of Minerals and Energy on the financial
          implications of electricity restructuring. SALGA is concerned
          about the possible adverse effects of the restructuring of
          electricity on the finances of municipalities and is working
          with the Department on how to respond to this.


     3.  SALGA undertook a major organisational analysis and
          identified, among other things, that its work is being
          hampered by its lack of both administrative and technical
          support. In response to this SALGA is undergoing a major
          restructuring process, central to which is the alignment of
          the organisational structures with overall strategy. The
          objective of the restructuring process is to create cohesion
          within the organisation. The core elements of restructuring
          process include determining strategy, performance goals and
          budget allocations nationally. SALGA believes that both the
          envisaged cohesion and the injecting of more human and
          financial resource capacity into the organisation will assist
          SALGA to execute its constitutional mandate, and accelerate
          service delivery.
     4.  SALGA recognises that it lacks the necessary profile it needs,
          especially during these challenging times of local government
          transformation. SALGA will also take initiatives to raise
          funds and not be dependent only on national allocations.


     5.  The Committee appreciates the difficulties SALGA has to
          contend with, but believes that it can and must be more
          effective. The Committee finds it difficult to appreciate how
          SALGA will be able to raise a budget of R120 million.
          Notwithstanding resource and other limitations, the Committee
          feels that SALGA needs to be monitoring and contributing to
          the local government transformation more effectively. SALGA's
          participation in parliament is far from adequate, and the
          Committee appeals to it to appoint a permanent parliamentary
          liaison officer. The Committee also feels that the public
          profile of SALGA needs to be enhanced. The Committee feels
          that it needs to pursue many more issues with SALGA and will
          seek to meet with SALGA's representatives to take this further
          in the second half of the year.


 N.  National House of Traditional Leaders:


     1.  In executing its constitutional mandate, the National House
          has established six standing committees: Management; Internal
          Arrangements; Rules; Constitutional Development; Social
          Development; and Traditions, Customs and Culture.


     2.  The House has established an HIV/AIDS task team, in co-
          operation with the Department of Health. The House also
          participates in a rural safety project in co-operation with
          the Department of Safety and Security.


     3.  As part of its plans for the next financial year, the House
          has drawn up a strategy to ensure more effective service
          delivery. Other identified activities for the 2002/03
          financial year include participation in the White Paper
          process, building structures and partnerships with potential
          investors and donors, and capacity building workshops for the
          members of the House.


     4.  Inkosi Mzimela expressed the House's deep disappointment in
          the government's failure to address the concerns of
          traditional leaders. The House objected to the control the
          Department has over its budget. It wanted to "de-link from the
          administration of the Department". The House would like to be
          part of the Presidency as it considers that its work cuts
          across all Departments. The House feels that the Department is
          not responsive to its capacity-building needs. The House wants
          to be involved in the drafting of the White Paper on
          Traditional Leadership and Institutions.


     5.  The Committee feels that the report submitted by the House is
          not satisfactory, and requests the Department to assist the
          House in preparing an adequate report for the next financial
          year. In particular, the Committee has to have a better sense
          of how the House is spending the budget allocated to it, what
          the House's programmes and activities are, what outcomes it is
          seeking to achieve each year, and how it measures its
          progress. The Committee suggests the Department meets the
          House and resolves outstanding issues regarding a capacity-
          building programme within three months. As for the other
          issues raised by the House, the Committee Chairperson will
          meet with the Department and Ministry and provide a response
          to the House within three months. The majority in the
          Committee feels that the House should continue to negotiate
          with the Department and Ministry around its concerns. There is
          steady, if slow, progress on the concerns of traditional
          leaders - and the House is encouraged to constantly negotiate
          to further its interests.


 O.  Local Government, Water And Related Services Sector (LGWSETA)


     1.  The LGWSETA draws its funds from the skills levy paid by the
          employer. In the last financial year it received R121 million.
          For this financial year it expects to receive R120 million. In
          terms of the relevant funding regulations only 60% of this is
          available to be disbursed as grants to employers to fund
          learning activity in local authorities and water companies.
          According to the LGWSETA, this falls far short of its needs.
          Proper training is not possible with these funds. The learning
          costs are estimated to be between R15,000 and R20,000 per
          learner per learnership. On this estimate, if the total
          available grants are claimed by employers, the maximum number
          of learners that can participate in full time learnerships is
          estimated to be between 3600 and 4800 learners per year, which
          is between 1.3% and 1.7% of the total employees in the local
          government and water sector. The learnership course
          development costs are estimated to be between R1.1 and R1.4
          million each. The LGWSETA needs to develop a minimum of 40
          learnerships with a total estimated development budget of
          between R44 and R56 million over the next three years, an
          amount greater than the total estimated discretionary grant
          funds available to it over the first five year period (2000-
          2005).
     2.  The LGWSETA feels there are at least four options to increase
          the funds it gets:


          (a) To increase the levy from 1% to 4% of payroll. This would
              have to be a voluntary undertaking by employers in the
              sector because an amendment to the Skills Development Act
              is unlikely to find political support from employers
              generally;


          (b) To broaden the scope of coverage of the sector to become a
              local government and utilities sector including for
              example electricity generation. This would involve an
              amalgamation of some existing SETA's that would require
              amendments to regulations and the approval of the
              Minister of Labour;


          (c) To allocate a much larger percentage of the further and
              higher education budget to vocational training, as
              happens in the Netherlands and other European countries


          (d) To access donor funds to meet learning development costs
              as a short-term intervention.


     3.  The LGWSETA explained that as a relatively newly created
          structure it was experiencing certain teething problems that
          it would, over time, overcome. Its CEO was only appointed in
          November 2001 and the new skills manager will start only in
          August 2002. The CEO conceded that the LGWSETA report to
          parliament may not be satisfactory, but next year the report
          will reflect an increased level of development and delivery
          activity..


     4.  The CEO explained that there were no intakes for learnerships
          during the last financial year. The LGWSETA hopes that there
          will be eight learnerships by the end of this financial year.
          The LGWSETA has decided to focus its development activity on
          shorter skills programme to address urgent needs for service
          delivery.


     5.  The Committee finds it very difficult to get a clear sense of
          the value of the LGWSETA's work. While appreciating the
          difficulties the LGWSETA confronts, the Committee feels that
          it can be more effective than it is. The Committee felt that
          the previous Local Government Training Board was very
          ineffective, and hoped the LGWSETA would be a significant
          improvement. At this stage, regrettably, there is no sign of
          this. The Committee, as explained above, is very concerned
          about the inadequacy of capacity-building and training
          programmes in the local government sphere, and feels that
          LGWSETA should be working with other stakeholders and doing
          more to contribute to the local government transformation. The
          Committee is especially concerned about the lack of co-
          ordination between the relevant capacity-building and training
          stakeholders, and would like to see LGWSETA playing a more
          active role in contributing to the necessary co-ordination
          being effected. The Committee will seek to convene a meeting
          of all the relevant stakeholders later in the year.


     6.  The Committee is not clear about how effectively and
          productively the LGWSETA has used the funds allocated to it
          thus far. The Committee does not feel competent to evaluate
          the LGWSETA's proposals on options to increase its funds, but
          will refer this to the Labour Portfolio Committee and the
          Department of Labour.


 P. Municipal Demarcation Board (MDB)


     1.  The budget of the MDB has been reduced from 15,8 million last
          year to R11, 6 million this financial year. The Board had a
          shortfall of R3, 5 million last year, which was funded by the
          Department. The Board consistently relies on the Department
          for supplementary funding. The Board expressed concern at the
          reduction of its budget. Although the boundary determinations
          have been essentially completed, the Board still has a lot of
          outstanding work to attend to, and the budget allocated is not
          adequate.


     2.  The main activities of the Board have centred around: (i)
          boundary categorisation, (ii) powers and functions of
          municipalities, (iii) alignment of service delivery boundaries
          and (iv) improvement on the functioning of its administration.
          During this financial year, the Board will consolidate its
          work around the areas outlined above and will also be part of
          finalising the outstanding issues of local government
          transformation.


     3.  The majority in the Committee feels that the Board still has
          important responsibilities to fulfil and should be funded
          adequately. The Board has been extremely frugal and productive
          in its use of its budget and other resources. In view of its
          exemplary use of funds, its case for more funds carries a
          certain credibility with the Committee.


 Q. Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit (MIIU)


     1.  The MIIU was established in 1998 for a five-year term mainly
          to assist municipalities to secure private sector investment
          in municipal services. Its term comes to an end in April 2003
          but cabinet is likely to renew it.


     2.  The MIIU's allocation has increased from R6 million last year
          to R7 million this year. The MIIU's overall budget is R17, 5
          million. This budget is also being financed with surplus funds
          carried forward from the previous financial year plus
          anticipated interest on investment and success fees. The
          financial year of the MIIU ends in February of each year but
          will change as required by the PFMA to align with the
          financial year of government. The consolidation of newly-
          demarcated municipalities slowed down requests for assistance
          from MIIU last year, but the demands on MIIU are expected to
          increase in this financial year.


     3.  In the past financial year, MIIU completed MSPs valued at R6,7
          million. 433 445 households benefited from this. In the past
          financial year the Unit managed to sign five major MSPs,
          including the Kelvin Power Plant Sale in Johannesburg and
          Uthukela Water Partnerships Multi-Jurisdictional Municipal
          Service Districts. The latter, which is the first of its kind
          in the country, is a very innovative water distribution
          service involving three district municipalities.


     4.  The MIIU has conducted a series of diagnostic studies of
          municipalities to investigate potential successes, constraints
          and challenges for the MSPs.


     5.  The Committee welcomes the clear and precise report from the
          MIIU and feels that the MIIU has been effective. The Committee
          supports a renewal of MIIU' mandate. Of course the Committee
          recognises the obvious challenges in securing private sector
          investment for more rural municipalities, but feels the MIIU
          should be seeking more creative ways of achieving this,
          especially with the increasing importance of the ISRDP and the
          long-term benefits for the private sector if it became
          appropriately involved in this programme.


 R.  Conclusion


     1.  The reports of the Department to the Committee were better
          this year than last year. Of course, they could be better.


     2.  The Department has major responsibilities. It has to contend
          with budgetary, resource, personnel and other limitations. In
          the circumstances, it is coping reasonably. Notwithstanding
          the constraints, the Department has to be far more effective
          in fulfilling its responsibilities.


     3.  The Committee has identified its concerns in different
          sections of this report. Fundamentally, these revolve around
          two inter-related themes:


          (a) the need for greater coordination and integration in the
              many senses identified in this report; and


          (b) the need for major capacity-building initiatives in the
              many senses suggested in this report.


     4.  Within limitations of time and capacity, the Committee will
          follow up on the issues raised in this report before the end
          of the financial year. The Committee expects the Department
          and above statutory bodies to respond to the issues raised in
          this report in their presentations to next year's budget
          hearings.


     5.  Within the context of the separation of powers between the
          executive and legislature, the Committee would like to co-
          operate more effectively with the Department and contribute
          more to addressing the challenges identified in this report.


     6.  The Committee recognises that it too needs to improve its
          capacity to fulfil it oversight role.


     7.  The reports provided by SALGA, LGWSETA, and the National House
          of Traditional Leaders were not satisfactory and have to be
          better next year. Where possible, the Department should offer
          appropriate assistance to these organisations.


     8.  The Committee expresses its appreciation to researchers - Ms D
          Hene and Mr C Sibanyoni and Committee Secretary, Mr L Brown
          for their assistance in the preparation of this report.


     9.  The Committee expresses its appreciation to the Minister,
          Deputy Minister, Acting Director General, other
          representatives of the Department and representatives of the
          statutory bodies for their co-operation with the Committee in
          respect of the budget hearings.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on the Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 22 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 7 June 2002:

 The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, having
 considered the subject of the Local Government: Municipal Structures
 Amendment Bill [B 22 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to
 it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill,
 reports the Bill with amendments [B 22A - 2002].


 The Committee further reports, as follows:


 1.  The Bill basically addresses the consequences of constitutional
     amendments providing for "crossing the floor" in the local
     government sphere.


 2.  The current electoral system in the Local Government: Municipal
     Structures Act, 1998 (Act No. 117 of 1998), is very closely linked
     to the model of local government.  The model was significantly
     based on a prohibition of "floor crossing". In respect of both the
     constitutional amendments as well as the amendment of the
     principal Act by this Bill, there has been a concern to provide
     for "floor crossing" in a way that does not erode the foundations
     of the new model of local government, especially the concepts of
     democracy underpinning it.


 3.  The Committee believes that the provisions of this Bill respond
     appropriately to the above concerns and that they could serve to
     strengthen aspects of the new model of local government.


 4.  The provisions to allow for "crossing the floor" have consequences
     for the composition of district councils, metropolitan subcouncils
     and other municipal structures and committees. Among other
     matters, the Bill provides for the reconstitution of metropolitan
     subcouncils in terms of a new formula that makes provision for
     "floor crossing". It is difficult at this stage to fully
     anticipate all the consequences that "crossing the floor" will
     have for district councils, metropolitan subcouncils and other
     municipal structures and committees. The Committee will closely
     monitor the process. The Committee urges the Department of
     Provincial and Local Government to play a full and effective role
     in ensuring that all the practical consequences of "floor
     crossing" are catered for through legislation, including
     regulations, as well as guidelines and other appropriate means.


 5.  The provisions on "crossing the floor" also confer additional
     responsibilities on the Electoral Commission. The Commission is
     urged to put the necessary infrastructure and procedures in place
     to attend to these responsibilities expeditiously.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 16 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74), dated 7 June 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the subject of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 16 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 74 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 16A - 2002].

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B 17 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74), dated 7 June 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the subject of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B 17 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 74 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 17A - 2002].

3. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, dated 7 June 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development resolved to initiate a Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill dealing with procedures on loss or retention of membership of a legislature by a member who ceases to be a member of the party which nominated him or her, and on the merging of one party with another party.

   The Committee complied with Rule 238(1) by tabling a memorandum in the National Assembly on 12 November 2001, setting out particulars and explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, as well as stating whether it would have financial implications for the State.

   The House, in accordance with Rule 238(3), on 13 November 2001 gave permission that the proposal be proceeded with.

   The Committee therefore reports that it has introduced the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 25 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76) by submitting a copy thereof to the Speaker in accordance with Rule 243.

4. Further Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on Crossing-the-Floor Legislation, dated 10 June 2002:

 The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development
 wishes to report further on the Crossing-the-Floor Legislation, as
 follows:


 1.  The four Bills dealing with changes of party membership and
     merger/subdivision of parties, namely the -


     *   Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial
          Legislatures Bill [B 25 - 2002];


     *   Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B
          16B - 2002];


     *   Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment
          Bill [B 17B - 2002]; and


     *   Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 22 B
          - 2002],


     will commence on the date of publication in the Gazette.


     In terms of transitional provisions contained in the legislation
     (the new item 23A(4) in [B 25 - 2002], and the new Schedule 6A
     item 7 in [B 16B - 2002]), the first opportunity for those changes
     will occur immediately after such commencement and will last for a
     period of 15 days.


 2.  It is imperative that the administrative structures and mechanisms,
     in particular the designation of officers by the Independent
     Electoral Commission, to deal with those procedures must be in
     place at the time of such commencement.


     *   The Committee recommends that the Independent Electoral
          Commission be urged to ensure that steps are taken timeously
          in order to ensure that the provisions of item 7 of the new
          Schedule 6A, as provided for in the Constitution of the
          Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 16B - 2002], could
          be implemented smoothly in the local government sphere.


     *   The Committee also recommends that the Secretaries of
          Parliament and of the various provincial legislatures be urged
          to ensure that steps are taken timeously in order to ensure
          that the provisions of the new item 23A(4), as provided for in
          the Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial
          Legislatures Bill [B 25 - 2002], could likewise be implemented
          smoothly in the national and provincial government spheres.


     The Committee is of the view that the relevant functionaries may
     wish to ensure that uniform practices and procedures are developed
     for this purpose. The Committee offers the drafts contained in the
     Annexure to this Report as a contribution to promote such
     uniformity. It is further suggested that the Independent Electoral
     Commission should, as soon as possible, publicise a list of all
     officers designated by the Commission to facilitate the necessary
     procedures in the local government sphere and submit the list to
     political parties.


 3.  The Committee further recommends that the Department of Justice and
     Constitutional Development be requested, in conjunction with the
     relevant role-players:


     *   To research the laws pertaining to the registration of
          political parties in order to ascertain whether or not any
          such laws should be amended in order to expedite the
          registration of new parties emerging as a result of the new
          provisions, in particular the subdivision of parties. It
          should be noted that the Independent Electoral Commission
          expressed the view that, at present, the Independent Electoral
          Commission Act, 1996, does not make provision for the
          subdivision of parties.


     *   To review the laws pertaining to the funding of political
          parties, in particular parties represented in a legislature,
          and to take such steps as may be necessary to ensure that
          those provisions are aligned with the changes effected in
          terms of the above legislation.


     *   To consider all legislation which may need to be amended in
          order to be brought into line with the new laws referred to in
          paragraph 1, and to make recommendations regarding such
          changes as may need to be effected.


     *   To revert to the Committee within two months of the
          commencement of the said legislation regarding all steps it
          has taken or will be taking as a result of the above matters.


 4. In addition to the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial
     and Local Government on the Local Government:  Municipal
     Structures Amendment Bill [B 22B - 2002] (Announcements, Tablings
     and Committee Reports, 10 June 2002), it should be noted that an
     important principle is established by the amendments to the Local
     Government: Municipal Structures Act, 1998, in so far as the
     reconstitution of metropolitan subcouncils is concerned after
     changes of party membership or mergers or subdivision of parties
     have taken place. In terms of the relevant amendment, metro
     councils may determine their own mechanism for the appointment of
     councillors in the proportional representative component of
     metropolitan subcouncils. Although such a mechanism must comply
     with the principles of fair representation and democracy as set
     out in Part 2 of Schedule 4 to the Municipal Structures Act (as
     amended), it is desirable for some degree of uniformity to be
     maintained by the respective metro councils. To this end, the
     Minister for Provincial and Local Government is requested to issue
     guidelines to metro councils on a possible model for such a
     mechanism.


 5.  The Committee further recommends that a copy of this resolution,
     together with the abovementioned Bills, be forwarded as a matter
     of the utmost urgency to the -


     *   Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the
          National Council of Provinces;


     *   Speakers of the provincial legislatures;


      *   Independent Electoral Commission;


     *   Department of Home Affairs;


     *   Department of Provincial and Local Government; and


     *   South African Local Government Association.

Report to be considerd.

ANNEXURE

NOTICE TO ELECTORAL COMMISSION (Item 4(2)(a) of Schedule 6A to Constitution)

_ CHANGE OF MEMBERSHIP OF A PARTY _ BECOMING MEMBER OF A PARTY _ CEASING TO BE MEMBER OF A PARTY

In terms of item 4(2)(a) of Schedule 6A to the Constitution, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names), hereby inform the Electoral Commission that, being a councillor who was electedÿ _ from the party list of the …………………………………. (name of original party) represented in the Municipal Council of …………………………………., I have become a member of the …………………………………. (name of new party). _ to represent …………………………………. (name of ward) in the Municipal Council of …………………………………., who was nominated by the …………………………………. (name of party) as a candidate in the ward election, I have ceased to be a member of the …………………………………. (name of original party) and have become a member of the …………………………………. (name of new party). _ to represent …………………………………. (name of ward) in the Municipal Council of …………………………………., who was nominated by the …………………………………. (name of party) as a candidate in the ward election, I have ceased to be a member of the …………………………………. (name of original party) and have not become a member of another party. _ to represent …………………………………. (name of ward) in the Municipal Council of …………………………………., who was not nominated by a party as a candidate in the ward election, I have become a member of the …………………………………. (name of party).

………………………………………….. SIGNATURE OF COUNCILLOR DATE

CONFIRMATION

In terms of item 4(2)(a) of Schedule 6A to the Constitution, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names), acting on behalf of and in my capacity as …………………………………. of the …………………………………. (name of party), hereby confirm that …………………………………. (full names of new member) has been accepted as a member of the …………………………………. (name of party).

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

CERTIFICATION

I, …………………………………. (full names of officer designated by the Electoral Commission), hereby certify that this notice has been duly submitted to me by …………………………………. (full names of councillor) and confirmed by *…………………………………. (name of party) on …………………………………. (date) at ………………………………… (place).

……………………………………………SIGNATURE OF DESIGNATED OFFICER DATE *Complete, if applicable

NOTICE TO ELECTORAL COMMISSION (Item 4(2)(b) of Schedule 6A to Constitution)

_ PARTY MERGING WITH ANOTHER PARTY _ PARTY SUBDIVIDING INTO MORE THAN ONE PARTY _ PARTY SUBDIVIDING AND SUBDIVISION MERGING WITH ANOTHER PARTY

In terms of item 4(2)(b) of Schedule 6A to the Constitution, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names), acting on behalf of and in my capacity as …………………………………. of the …………………………………. (name of party), hereby inform the Electoral Commission thatÿ _ the …………………………………. (name of original party) as represented in the Municipal Council of …………………………………. has merged with the …………………………………. (name of party). A list of the names and signatures of all the councillors involved in the merger is attached. _ the …………………………………. (name of subdivision) has subdivided from the …………………………………. (name of original party), being a party represented in the Municipal Council of ………………………………….. A list of the names and signatures of all the councillors involved in the subdivision is attached. _ the councillors mentioned in the attached list have subdivided from the …………………………………. (name of original party), being a party represented in the Municipal Council of …………………………………. and merged with the …………………………………. (name of party). A list of the names and signatures of all the councillors involved in the subdivision and merger is attached.

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

CONFIRMATION

(Complete in event of merger or subdivision and merger)

In terms of item 4(2)(b) of Schedule 6A to the Constitution, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names), acting on behalf of and in my capacity as …………………………………. of the …………………………………. (name of party), hereby confirm the names of all the councillors involved in theÿ _ merger; or _ subdivision and merger; and that the …………………………………. (name of party) has accepted the merger.

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

CERTIFICATION

I, …………………………………. (full names of officer designated by the Electoral Commission), hereby certify that this notice has been duly submitted to me by …………………………………. (full names of representative) and confirmed by *…………………………………. (name of party) on …………………………………. (date) at ………………………………… (place).

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF DESIGNATED OFFICER DATE *Complete, if applicable

NOTICE TO SPEAKER OF LEGISLATURE CHANGE OF MEMBERSHIP OF A PARTY (Item 23A(5)(c)(i) of Schedule 2 to Act 200 of 1993)

In terms of item 23A(5)(c)(i) of Schedule 2 to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names) hereby inform the Speaker of the …………………………………. (name of legislature) that I haveÿ

n ceased to be a member of the …………………………………. (name of original party); and

n have become a member of the …………………………………. (name of new party).

………………………………………….. …………………………………. SIGNATURE OF MEMBER DATE

CONFIRMATION

In terms of item 23A(5)(c)(i) of Schedule 2 to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names), acting on behalf of and in my capacity as …………………………………. of the …………………………………. (name of party), hereby confirm that …………………………………. (full names of new member) has been accepted as a member of the …………………………………. (name of party).

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

CERTIFICATION

I, …………………………………. Speaker of the ……………………………. (name of legislature), hereby certify that this notice has been duly submitted to me by …………………………………. (full names of member) and confirmed by …………………………………. (name of party) on …………………………………. (date) at ………………………………… (place).

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

NOTICE TO SPEAKER OF LEGISLATURE (Item 23A(5)(c)(ii) of Schedule 2 to Act 200 of 1993)

_ PARTY MERGING WITH ANOTHER PARTY _ PARTY SUBDIVIDING INTO MORE THAN ONE PARTY _ PARTY SUBDIVIDING AND SUBDIVISION MERGING WITH ANOTHER PARTY

In terms of item 23A(5)(c)(ii) of Schedule 2 to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names), acting on behalf of and in my capacity as …………………………………. of the …………………………………. (name of party), hereby inform the Speaker of the …………………………………. (name of legislature) thatÿ _ the …………………………………. (name of original party), as represented in the …………………………………. (name of legislature) has merged with the …………………………………. (name of party). A list of the names and signatures of all the members involved in the merger is attached. _ the …………………………………. (name of subdivision) has subdivided from the …………………………………. (name of original party), being a party represented in the ………………………………….. (name of legislature). A list of the names and signatures of all the members involved in the subdivision is attached. _ the members mentioned in the attached list have subdivided from the …………………………………. (name of original party), being a party represented in the …………………………………. (name of legislature) and merged with the …………………………………. (name of party). A list of the names and signatures of all the members involved in the subdivision and merger is attached.

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

CONFIRMATION (Complete in event of merger or subdivision and merger)

In terms of item 23A(5)(c)(ii) of Schedule 2 to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993, I, ………………………………………………………………. (full names), acting on behalf of and in my capacity as …………………………………. of the …………………………………. (name of party), hereby confirm the names of all the members involved in theÿ _ merger; or _ subdivision and merger; and that the …………………………………. (name of party) has accepted the merger.

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

CERTIFICATION

I, …………………………………. Speaker of the …………………………………. (name of legislature), hereby certify that this notice has been duly submitted to me by …………………………………. (full names of representative) and confirmed by *…………………………………. (name of party) on …………………………………. (date) at ………………………………… (place).

…………………………………………… SIGNATURE OF REPRESENTATIVE DATE

*Complete, if applicable

                        TUESDAY, 11 JUNE 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Subcommittee of the Joint Programme Committee on 11 June
     2002 took a decision, in accordance with Joint Rule 216(2), that
     the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment
     Bill [B 17B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74), Local
     Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 22B - 2002]
     (National Assembly - sec 75) and Loss or Retention of Membership
     of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 25 - 2002]
     (National Assembly - sec 76) be fast-tracked by, where necessary,
     shortening any period within which any step in the legislative
     process relating to the Bill must be completed, in order to make
     it possible for the Bill to be passed by Tuesday 18 June 2002.


     In terms of Joint Rule 216(4) this decision must be tabled in both
     Houses for ratification.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker: (1) Bill passed by National Assembly on 11 June 2002: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:

   (i) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 16B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (a)    Proclamation No R 32 published in Government Gazette No 23364
     dated 26 April 2002, Commencement of the Constitution of the
     Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Act, 2001 (Act No 61 of
     2001).


 (b) Proclamation No R 33 published in Government Gazette No 23373 dated
     1 May 2002, Commencement of sections 1(b) and 2 of the Legal Aid
     Amendment Act, 1996 (Act No 20 of 1996).


 (c) Proclamation No R 34 published in Government Gazette No 23381 dated
     3 May 2002, Commencement of section 16(4) of the Judges'
     Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of
     2001), made in terms of section 18(2) of the Act.


 (d) Proclamation No R 35 published in Government Gazette No 23384 dated
     6 May 2002, Commencement of the Criminal Procedure Amendment Act,
     1996 (Act No 86 of 1996).

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Land Bank for the year
 ended 31 December 2001.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Interim Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Filling of Vacancies on South African Human Rights Commission, dated 7 June 2002:

   The Ad Hoc Committee on Filling of Vacancies on South African Human Rights Commission reports as follows:

       The Committee has been mandated to complete its task by 6 May
       2002, and regrets to report that it was not able to meet that
       deadline.
   
   
       The Committee did, however, advertise the vacancies and
       complete shortlisting. It has held interviews on 4, 5 and 7
       June 2002, and it will be meeting shortly to finalise its
       recommendations to the House. It is envisaged that the
       Committee will be in a position to complete its work in due
       course.
   
   
       The Committee therefore requests that the House,
       notwithstanding its Resolution adopted on 2 November 2001,
       grant it permission to publish its final report by not later
       than Tuesday, 25 June 2002.
   

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security on Study Trip to Brazil, dated 8 November 2001:

 The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, having conducted a
 study trip to the Federal Republic of Brazil, reports as follows:


 A.  Introduction


     The study trip took place from 19 to 25 August 2001, and the
     following members were in attendance:


     Mr M E George (Chairperson)
     Adv A H Gaum
     Mr V B Ndlovu
     Adv P S Swart
     Mrs M M Sotyu
     Mrs J E Sosibo
     Mr R P Zondo
     Mr L Pakati (Committee Secretary)


 B.  Purpose of trip


     South Africa is in the process of consolidating its democracy. To
     achieve this the country needs to provide a safe and secure
     environment, not only for its citizens but also for business and
     investment. Crime in this regard is widely perceived as an
     increasing threat to sustainable democracy and socio-economic
     development. The Committee sees its role as supportive of
     strategies and policies the government has developed to reduce the
     levels of crime. To help to fulfil this responsibility from an
     informed position, the Committee, at times, undertakes provincial
     as well as international study visits. Internationally, the
     Committee visits various carefully selected countries to interact
     with government officials and political leaders involved in crime
     prevention and combating. The ultimate aim is to share ideas and
     experiences and to see if South Africa can emulate some of the
     positive experiences of the host countries.


 C.  Visits in Brazil


     The delegation had fruitful discussions with senior police
     officials, both at federal and state levels. Places visited were
     Brasilia, Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. In all the cities
     discussions were held with senior municipal police officials,
     military police, civil police and judicial police and one
     successful private security company in Sao Paulo. Of particular
     interest to the SA parliamentary delegation were the following
     topics:


     * Organisation and functioning of the Brazilian Police


     * Border control/policing


     * Organised and transnational crime


     * Social crime prevention


     * Firearms control and legislation


     * Regulation of private security industry


     * Training of police


     * Combating terrorism


     1.  Organisation and functioning of Brazilian Police
          The Minister of Justice is the political head of the federal
          police force. Initially, political accountability used be the
          responsibility of the Minister of Home Affairs. At the federal
          state level, the governor is the political head and at the
          level of the municipality the ultimate accountability lies
          with the Mayor of the city. All of them have powers to
          legislate within the provisions of the federal constitution.




          Safeguarding public order and security is one of the critical
          demands of any democracy and one of the most important
          responsibilities of an accountable government. In Brazil this
          responsibility is shared between the federal government and
          the various states (26 states). Generally, crime combating and
          other police matters are the responsibility of the various
          individual states that make up the federation. On the other
          hand the Constitution states that the responsibility of the
          state police is restricted to certain areas only - the state.
          In this sense, and in accordance with the constitution, each
          state has the police force of its own, whose jurisdiction is
          restricted within the particular boundaries of the concerned
          state.


          Unlike in Germany, where there is no uniformity in the manner
          in which the states police are organised, there is some
          uniformity in Brazil in the sense that in all the states the
          police are divided into four categories:


          * Judicial police


          * Investigative police


          * Military police (uniformed police)


          * Municipal guards


          The federal police force has specific and explicitly stated
          responsibilities. Among other things, they deal with organised
          crime, money laundering, drug trafficking, maintaining
          political and social order, protection of the constitution and
          Parliament and the training of police personnel. On the other
          hand, the police in the states are tasked with the
          responsibility of dealing specifically with ordinary crime
          within their borders.


     2.  Prevalent crimes


          The delegation had an opportunity to take a guided tour of the
          police museum at the Police Academy in Brasilia. To a large
          extent the museum provides a profound insight into the extent
          of crime and criminality in Brazil. Again it shows the extent
          desperate drug smugglers go to, to smuggle drugs across
          borders. The delegation was shown the following:


              Different illegal cigarettes brands and liquor; forged
              foreign passports; fake currencies; home-made bombs;
              machines that print currencies and coins; machines used
              to press dagga and other drugs; samples of valuable
              stones that are extracted in Brazil; different types of
              animals used to store cocaine and other hard drugs during
              smuggling.


     3.  Border control


          Brazil is so big that it is considered to be the size of a
          continent; it has 170 million inhabitants in 26 states; it is
          the eighth largest economy in the world; people emigrate to
          Brazil in search of better life opportunities and the country
          has one of the busiest ports in the world. It is the
          combination of these factors that place border policing on top
          in the list of government priorities. For the police it is a
          mammoth task to control the borders of a country of this size.
          There in one border police unit in each state to police land
          borders.


          According to Article 144 of the Federal Constitution, the task
          of border control is the competence of the federal police.
          They do not only control borders but are also responsible for
          the issuing of passports to travellers. The major and more
          prevalent crimes that are associated with borders are drug
          smuggling and smuggling of people out of Brazil. Brazil is
          considered a country of immigrants. People are constantly
          coming into Brazil and there are also many who emigrate to the
          US for better opportunities. There are syndicates who
          specialise in smuggling people to Japan and other European
          countries to work as labourers. Most smuggled children and
          young women are taken to the US and Spain to become
          prostitutes.


          The police, through their intelligence network, always try to
          intercept such crime syndicates. They also try to prevent
          people from coming into Brazil illegally. These people are
          repatriated as soon as possible. However, they come back soon
          after the repatriation and the cost of carrying the same
          exercise repeatedly is expensive. Another way to discourage
          them is to put them in prison, charge and fine them $1 000 -
          which is a huge sum of money. The combination of these
          measures, to a significant degree, help to deter illegal
          immigrants from entering Brazil illegally. Like in South
          Africa, in Rio de Janeiro, most of the illegals tend to join
          crime syndicates, while in Sao Paulo the tendency is to become
          illegal labourers. The Chinese on the other hand tend to
          specialise in distributing fake clothing and audio-visual
          material.


     4.  Firearms control


          Previously the carrying of firearms was not illegal. When it
          became illegal those who broke the law received light
          sentences. Such offences were not taken seriously by the law.
          However, firearms have since become a serious problem and the
          government has begun to treat crimes that are committed with
          firearms very seriously. For instance, just before the
          delegation arrived, the government had just destroyed 100 000
          illegal firearms in Rio De Janeiro. The aim of the exercise
          was to remove a sizeable number of firearms out of circulation
          system.


          Paraguay is the major source of illegal firearms. Most illegal
          9 mm firearms are smuggled from Paraguay. Like in South
          Africa, another major source of illegal firearms is the legal
          ones. They are mostly used to commit violent crimes, such as
          armed robbery and murders. The government has therefore
          realised the increasing need to control the proliferation of
          both legal as well as illegal firearms.


          In 1997 an Act of Parliament was promulgated to do three
          things. One was to limit the number of firearms in
          circulation. Two was for the government to develop
          sophisticated methods to register firearms and to prevent
          their escalation. Lastly, since one of the problems initially
          was lack of communication between the various states and the
          federal government, the Act endeavoured to address this
          administrative loophole by compelling the government to
          develop a national law to enforce uniformity when dealing with
          firearms. Currently, in all the states, a person has to have a
          maximum of six firearms, and they are divided for the
          following purposes:


          * two for personal collection


          * two for hunting


          * two for self-defence.


          Sports people fall in a special and exclusive category. The
          category recognises their peculiar circumstance and as such,
          allows them to acquire additional weapons. Like in South
          Africa, all applicants have to meet certain conditions before
          they qualify, which are:
          (a) The background of the applicant - to check if he has a
              criminal record.


          (b) He has to undergo psychological tests - to check if he is
              fit to carry a firearm.


          (c) He has to be above 21 years of age.


          (d) He has to demonstrate the need - eg if he lives in a
              violent area.


     5.  Drugs and drug-trafficking


          Brazil does not produce illegal drugs. It gets most of its
          drugs from neighbouring countries such as Colombia. Although
          one does get marijuana in the northern parts of the country,
          it is of bad quality and, for this reason, is not good for
          export. It is consumed locally by the poorer communities who
          cannot afford expensive imported drugs such as cocaine and
          heroin. There were attempts in the past to plant cocaine but
          they failed. At the moment neither heroin nor cocaine
          production is taking place.


          The policing of illegal drugs is the responsibility of the
          Federal Police. The problem is so endemic that the government
          decided to create a National Secretariat to specifically deal
          with illegal drugs. The secretariat also falls under the
          Minister of Justice. Its primary function is to co-ordinate
          strategies for the eradication of illegal drugs. In this
          regard, they co-ordinate intelligence gathering and national
          policy. In addition, they are responsible for the training of
          drug sniffing dogs, monitor postal trafficking, work at
          airports and sea borders. At the moment, they have decided to
          focus their resources and energy on destroying 13 products
          that are used to produce cocaine and heroin.


          Brazil has formed a strong partnership with the United Nations
          (UN). The project costs $9 million and is supposed to be in
          operation for the next five years. Since the major source of
          drugs is Colombia, it was therefore logical that the Brazilian
          Police formed a partnership with the Government of Colombia to
          help both countries in the fight against drugs. For this
          purpose, they have established, which they call the Cobra
          Plan. This acronym was coined to indicate the involvement of
          Colombia (co) and Brazil (bra) as partners.


          The Cobra Plan is carried out between Brazilian and Colombian
          border control police units. Both police forces have a very
          strong working relationship. So far the plan seems to be
          working effectively and well. 30 tons of cocaine was recovered
          in 1996, and the number increased to 160 ton in 2000. This is
          attributable solely to the strong working relationship between
          the two neighbours. According to the Brazilian Police, it is
          difficult to work with their Colombian counterparts because
          the latter live under very dangerous circumstances in
          Colombia. They are the targets of criminals. According to
          statistics, two police officers are killed every day in
          Colombia, and out of 2 000 people kidnapped, 500 were members
          of the Colombian police. Military units are then used to
          augment the capacity of the police at the borders. Again, one
          of the problems in border control is the kind of
          constitutional arrangement of state police versus federal
          police. In this sense, there is lack of co-operation between
          states and federal police. And this weakness in the system is
          likely to persist well into the future because it is
          considered to be very sensitive and many officials prefer to
          leave it to the attention of the politicians.


     6.  Other mechanisms used to fight drugs


          There is an intimate link between crimes that involve drugs,
          weapons, cargos and smuggling of people. However, criminals
          prefer to invest in drugs because they are the most lucrative
          in organised crime. The government believes that any strategy
          should be informed by this link. Essentially, this implies
          that, although it is important to have specialised units, it
          is equally important to widen their approach. To this end, the
          Brazilian government is using the following tools to fight
          drugs:


          Intelligence - Interpol is used to gather intelligence on
          international criminals.


          Extradition - Brazil has extradition agreements with most of
          her neighbours.


          Money-laundering law - the police have powers to seize
          property of a suspected criminal.


          Witness protection - this is necessary for successful
          prosecution.


          Criminal association law - this criminalises membership of a
          banned criminal organisations. And all these measures are
          enforced by Federal White Collar Law.


     7.  Decriminalisation of marijuana


          The government does not believe that the decriminalisation of
          dagga would yield any positive tangible outcome. On the
          contrary, they believe that the more it becomes freely
          available, the more it will be consumed and abused. In
          addition, the fact that it is addictive, alone poses a serious
          problem.


 D.  Forensic technology


     As a means of communication, criminals are making very good use of
     the latest technology. Internet, in this regard, is used as a
     global connecting network. Essentially, this allows the
     generalised use of information. At the same time, global crimes
     such as, pornography with young children; violation of authors
     rights and other information security-related crimes are
     perpetrated through the internet phenomenon. Difficult as it may
     be, the police are not only expected to investigate these crimes
     but also to deal with them with a great deal of efficiency and
     effectiveness. To this end, they must be able to recover and
     present digital evidence. This means that they must be specialists
     in the field of forensic technology. In Brazil police deal with
     such intricate crimes in four steps, namely:


     * environmental analysis


     * digital representation


     * translation of evidence


     * forensic reports


 E.  Visit to Sao Paulo


     In Sao Paulo the delegation had fruitful and informative
     discussions with the municipal police. They reiterated the fact
     that like in any modern country, organised crime is a serious
     problem. What makes the problem even more difficult and
     frustrating at times, is that procedures are too formal and
     involve a lot of paperwork. Another problem from the perspective
     of the state police is that it is not viewed as their
     responsibility and they therefore are not authorised to deal with
     it. For instance, when they catch criminals, they have to inform
     the federal police to take over. At state level they cannot
     infiltrate criminal organisations operating in their states. In
     Sao Paulo the total number of police personnel is 120 000, and
     there is only 2 000 federal police. In this sense, the state has
     more personnel than the federal police when it comes to dealing
     with organised crime, and yet, they cannot translate those numbers
     to good use because they are compelled by the constitution to
     respect borders, whereas criminals do not do that.


     As if that is not enough, a further division occurs between
     military police (uniformed police) and civil police. This affects
     the effectiveness of the police because the latter is supposed to
     work only after a crime has been committed. Sometimes, depending
     on the personalities involved, the units work simultaneously.
     There is, however, a national political discussion currently
     taking place, debating the possibility of merging the two units to
     help minimise some of the distortions in the present arrangement.
     The topic, however, is very controversial and sensitive. Some
     people are more than comfortable with the status quo while others
     are keen to effect the necessary changes. In the State of Sao
     Paulo the Secretary of Police, in particular, is known to be
     trying hard to unite the two units. However, he is not getting the
     support he needs from other states.


     Sao Paulo is a very big city. It is the most populous in Brazil,
     with 36 million inhabitants. Similar to South African cities, its
     economy is a combination of first and third world economies. In
     this context it soon becomes apparent that all levels of law
     enforcement have a critical role to play. The civil guard
     (municipal police) in the municipalities in particular, play a
     critical role in crime prevention. One of the immediate advantages
     of the municipal police concept is that it creates a structure
     that is lean, easily manageable, accessible to the people on the
     street and quick to respond. In line with the demands of Article
     144 of the Constitution, the civil guard of Sao Paulo was
     inaugurated on 15 September 1986 by municipal ordinance No 10.115.
     Ever since, it has performed very well.


     In a city the size of Sao Paulo the police work under severe
     pressure because crime affects many people. There is pressure from
     all sorts of people, particularly the media. According to the
     police, the media simply do not understand how the police work.
     For the police, the media attention is problematic, and the
     solution is to simply ignore them and focus on the job at hand.


     Illegal drugs are a serious problem in Sao Paulo. There is a new
     breed of the youth who live on drugs, either as consumers or drug
     peddlers. Officials consider it as not only a problem for Brazil
     but a regional and international one. They do not believe that
     more police resources are a solution to the problem. Their
     argument is that the problem is as prevalent and serious in the US
     as in Brazil. According to them, the US has more resources, and
     yet they have not been successful in dealing with illegal drugs.
     Instead, the problem is increasing.


     At some point in time, Brazil was used as a transit country, but
     today it is a consumers' market. The reason, as was mentioned in
     one of the preceding paragraphs, is that they have a very big
     young population. Most of them are poor and desperate and it is
     easy for them to be invaded by cheap drugs.


 F.  Visit to Headquarters of Private Security Company (Pires)


     Given that in South Africa the complaint has always been lack of
     proper training of private security guards by security companies,
     it was deemed appropriate therefore that the delegation be
     introduced to the management of the best training facility in the
     whole of Latin America - Pires private security company. Their
     sterling work and achievements are traceable back to 1983. The
     story goes like this: During the early seventies to early
     eighties, the economy of Sao Paulo grew substantially, banks
     prospered and both industry and commerce expanded. They demanded
     security that could not be provided by the government. The changes
     demanded the production of a highly qualified cadre of security
     guards that would meet the increasing demands of a fast-growing
     economy. In 1983 the federal government decided to effect changes
     to the federal law to include the rules and regulations for
     security training requirements and facilities for the security
     industry. Pires responded to these challenges by investing more on
     training of its personnel.


     Pires' special training not only concentrated on security of
     banks, heavy industry and the commercial sector, but also on the
     security of embassies, consulates, hospitals, hotels and
     universities. Pires also, specialises in executive protection and
     drivers training in defensive driving. Security escort services
     and custody of valuables are also part of its diversified
     services.


     Pires' managers believe that their success can be attributed to
     sound human resources management. They claim that careful
     recruiting, testing and training are the essential steps taken to
     produce a high level of professionalism. After rigorous selection
     and background investigation the candidates are sent to Pires
     privately-owned, training academy, known as CFAPP. It is here that
     they are trained, using the latest techniques and equipment.


     The academy was found in 1985 and inaugurated in 1997. It covers
     137 000 square metres in the municipality of Guarulhos in the
     State of Sao Paulo. Having trained thousands of men and women, the
     academy has received the certificate of "Quality System ISO 9002",
     which is considered to be the highest recognition any training
     institution in Brazil can strive for. Some people refer to CFAPP
     as the Security University of Latin America.


      Its facilities allow it to train up to 450 students at the same
     time, some of who are from other countries. The academy consist of
     the following:


     1.  Five large monitored and air-conditioned classrooms for 45
          students each.


     2.  One auditorium, fully automatic with a seating capacity of
          150.


     3.  One large building specifically for personal defence training.


     4.  Three large and fully automatic shooting galleries.


     5.  One interactive video shooting course.


     6.  One complete fire-fighting complex.


     7.  One driving track for defensive and offensive driving
          training.


     8.  One dog kennel.
     9.  Two dormitories for up to 224 intern students - each room with
          four bunk beds and individual wardrobes.


     10. One large cafeteria.


     11. One kitchen and laundry.


     12. One library.


     13. One chapel.


     14. A leisure area with a barbecue, running tracks, a soccer field
          and tennis courts.


 G.  Lema Municipal police


     Lema is a small town 189 km north of Sao Paulo. It has a
     population of 89 000 citizens and 30 municipal guards. In addition
     to the municipal guards there are 54 civil police. Both police
     complement each other for the sake of preventing crime. The Lema
     municipal guards pride themselves on the fact that they are small,
     efficient and quick to respond to challenges. They take their work
     very seriously and some of the tasks they perform, include the
     following:


     1. Traffic control.


     2. Public rescue service.


     3. Inspection of pubs and bars.


     4. Protection of community amenities and school buildings.


     5. Monitoring and protection of environment.


     6. Monitoring school events and sports gatherings.


     As a result of many successes in regard to the above functions,
     they are thinking of widening the powers of their municipal
     police. Each municipal police is headed, by a Secretary, and the
     political head is the Major. Lema municipal police and its
     characteristics are modelled along the lines of private security
     companies.


     It is expensive to train municipal police, because unlike other
     police, they have to be trained in all aspects of security,
     including municipal bylaws, to protect buildings and
     infrastructure, to render paramedical training, to shooting and to
     perform water rescue work. For this reason they recruit and train
     small groups at a time. In this way they are able to train
     everyone thoroughly because each is given individual attention.
     Above all a municipal guard should be psychologically prepared and
     physically fit and always ready to perform. Training takes place
     in the municipalities themselves and is continuous. Recruits are
     taught 18 courses in a period of three months. Courses taught
     include the following:


     Social instruction


     * social psychology
     * human relations
     * sociology
     * social welfare
     * professional ethics


     Legislation and administration


     * constitution
     * human rights
     * rights of road users
     * data processing


     Operational instruction


     * criminology
     * operational techniques
     * organisation and functioning of Brazilian police
     * telecommunications
     * physical conditioning


     In small cities they use bicycles to patrol the streets. A bicycle
     can travel at 20 km/h - the average speed of a car in city
     traffic. The advantage of using bicycles is that they are not
     inconvenienced by heavy traffic. Lema municipal guards consider
     themselves very successful and as role models to other
     municipalities. They have reduced the number of road accidents and
     have also removed a large number of stray animals.


 H.  Visit to military police in Sao Paulo


     The military police specialises in policing public events and
     gatherings. They also monitor public amenities, such as parks.
     They are equivalent to South Africa's public order police. They
     further divide themselves into specialised units, to which they
     refer as battalions. They handle crime situations under dangerous
     conditions, such as riots in jails. (For various reasons, Sao
     Paulo has some of the most over-crowded jails in the world, and
     riots are not a rare phenomenon.) They work and patrol the most
     dangerous informal settlements and jungles. In these regions there
     are often no streets and control is difficult to exercise.


      The battalions are divided as follows:


     * sporting activities (stadiums)


     * dog unit (mainly used to detect explosives and drugs)


     * rural areas special unit


     * bombs and kidnapping


     * motorcycles unit (to patrol the streets, which are always busy
       and congested)


     * VIP unit


     * police on horses


     * special public celebrations.


     They patrol the streets between 07:00 and 19:00. Between 19:00 and
     22:00 they undergo physical training in preparation for the
     following morning shift. According to them this arrangement is
     informed, firstly, by the fact that there is less crime after 7 in
     the evening and 07:00 in the morning and, secondly, by the fact
     that for each patrol they have to be physically and
     psychologically fit to cope with any crime situation. After each
     15 days they sit down and analyse crime patterns in the city so
     that they can deploy resources where they are most needed. To cope
     with the dangers on the street they have to be fully armed. The
     weapons they use according to the demands of the situation are
     short guns, 9 mm submachine guns and rifles such as M16 and AR15.
     Their working relation with other police formations is as follows:


          Civil police - their function is to deal with judicial and
          legal matters and investigations. In this sense, their
          relations are not on operational level.


          Federal police - the military police always have to understand
          their limitations according to the constitution. Whenever they
          are about to step over their jurisdiction and powers, they
          have to inform the federal police and when they have to
          intercept or infiltrate illegal drug-trafficking. However,
          according to them, this is only in theory because in practice
          they seize drugs themselves and only inform the federal police
          afterwards.


     The military police in Sao Paulo agree that with only 508
     personnel and only two women (who work as undercover police), they
     are severely understaffed. In addition to the 508, they need 170
     staff members, especially women. They have 85 vehicles, mostly
     4X4s. This number is not considered to be enough.


     The morale of the military police was very high and the delegation
     was told that money or resources were not considered as serious
     factors in boosting moral. What they needed, was praise, medals,
     free holidays and a simple thank you from their senior officials.


 I.  Acknowledgements


     The delegation would like to convey sincere thanks and
     appreciation to their hosts in the Federal Republic of Brazil,
     without whom the visit would not have been so informative and
     successful. Special thanks go to the following people:


     J F Mallmann - Police Management
     V J Caentano - Control of Firearms
     Getulio Bezerra Santos - Organised/Transnational Crime
     Valdhino J Caetano - Security Companies
     Fernando Q S Oliveira - Border Control
     Andre M Caricatti - Technology and Crime
     Dr Paulo A Rocheli Filho - Public Security AdvisEr
     Sergio Fidelis Brasil Fontoura
     Jomar B Pinto
     Sergio B Menezes
     Aldemira Almeida Fontes
     Eli Sousa Lima
     Col P M Josias
     Sampaio Lopes - Commander Civil Guards Sao Paulo

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on visit to SADC countries, dated 25 September 2001:

 A.  Introduction


     As part of our Committee's role of exercising oversight over the
     process of developing a new Immigration Policy for South Africa
     and to better understand Home Affairs issues, especially in
     respect of land border posts, airports and seaports as vital
     points of entry that are targeted by illegal immigrants, as well
     of contribution and, allegations of corruption, and the
     exploitation of the VAT system, we visited:


     * Namibia
     * Botswana
     * Zimbabwe
     * Mozambique


     1.  The aim of the visits was to:


          (a) Gain first-hand knowledge of specific migration problems
              that are being experienced by the various countries and
              its impact on South Africa.


          (b) Better understand the problems that face border posts in
              the various countries and its impact on South Africa.


          (c) Find common solutions and mechanisms to deal with the
              migration problems of the region and the country.


          (d) Gain general insight into the SADC region's situation
              regarding migration and the movement of people.


          (e) Apply the knowledge that was gained in order to consider
              the Immigration Bill from an informed position.


          In all the countries, we gave special attention to ports of
          entry, such as land border posts, air and seaports. The
          information that we gathered will help us to formulate a
          practical and workable immigration policy.


     2.  Composition of delegation


          The delegation under the leadership of Mr D A Mokoena (ANC),
          included Mr W M Skhosana (ANC), Mr K W Morwamoche (ANC), Mr P
          M Mathebe (ANC), Mrs C I Gcina (ANC), Mr M R Sikakane (ANC),
          Mr G A J Grobler (DP), Mr M Waters (DP), Mr F Beukman (New
          NP), Prince N E Zulu (IFP) and the Committee Secretary, Mr J F
          Vermeulen.


 B.  Approach


     Information was obtained by interviewing Immigration Officers,
     Departmental Officials, politicians, the police, Customs and
     Excise Officials in the countries that were visited.


     The information in this Report under "Findings" contains
     information as it was conveyed to the Committee. The evidence
     gathered should not necessarily be seen as the view of the
     Committee. The Committee's views are reflected under "Conclusion"
     and "Recommendations".


 C.  Findings - Namibia


     The delegation held meetings in Namibia between Monday, 30 July
     2001 and Thursday, 2 August 2001. Meetings were held in Windhoek
     and Walvisbay as follows:


     Meetings were held with various role players who explained
     migration problems in Namibia, as follows:


     1.  South African High Commissioner to Namibia, Mr C Nkondo and
          his staff on migration in Namibia


          (a) There are very few Namibians who migrate to South Africa
              and there are also few South Africans that migrate to
              Namibia, although there are no official statistics.


          (b) The trafficking of drugs through Namibia to South Africa
              and cash in transit heists are on the increase.


          (c) Many Taiwanese, Chinese, Indians and Angolans regard
              Namibia as the best springboard into South Africa.


          (d) Many Chinese are settling in Namibia and Chinese shops are
              mushrooming all over Namibia.


          (e) Some Namibians regard South Africa as "big brother" and
              are negative toward South Africans. South African
              citizens struggle to get work or permanent residence
              permits in Namibia.
          (f) There is a very large refugee camp near Otjivango with
              mostly Congolese and Angolan refugees. There is also a
              refugee camp near Osire.


     2.  Namibian Parliamentary Standing Committee on Security and
          Standing Committee on Governmental Affairs


          (a) Namibia has an Immigration Act that was passed in 1990 and
              it has been amended twice.


          (b) There are thousands of Refugees from the North of Africa
              even Sudan.


          (c) There are about 200 000 refugees in the Osire Refugee camp
              25 kilometers from Windhoek. Many are from Angola.
              Economic refugees do not want to stay in the refugee
              camps but want to go to towns to work.


          (d) Namibia and South Africa share common migration problems.
              Both countries have long borders that are difficult to
              control. On the border of Namibia and Angola there are
              families and tribes that live on both sides of the river.
              The river divides the tribe.


          (e) Especially Angolans come to Namibia for medical attention,
              education and work. There are no fences between the
              Namibian/Angolan border and people cross as they please.
              It is legal to cross the border and stay within a 60 km
              radius of the border without a permit. There are not
              enough resources to guard the 1000km border. Namibia had
              a major car theft problem recently from migrant thieves.
          (f) Some hospitals in Northern Namibia are 60%-70% filled with
              Angolan patients. Some Angolans even draw a pension in
              Namibia. During the Namibian war, Namibians crossed to
              Angola in large numbers and Namibia now feels obliged to
              help Angolans who cross to Namibia. After the war, some
              Angolans even acquired Namibian identity cards. Namibia
              had serious backlogs in the issuing of Identity Documents
              (ID) some time ago. The voters' roll is outdated and many
              people still have no ID.


          (g) Drug smugglers use Namibia as a springboard to South
              Africa.


          (h) The Namibian government is concerned about the large
              numbers of Chinese in the country. Some of them smuggle
              goods into the country by bribing officials and evading
              customs duties and taxes. Some Chinese people even kill
              rival Chinese. Chinese shops are everywhere and they sell
              low quality goods.


          (i) Foreign companies, especially in the building and fishing
              industries, who use foreign labour at the expense of
              locals, created many problems. Petty criminals from China
              were used as cheap labour especially in the building
              industry.


     3.  Namibian Customs, Immigration and Police Officials


          (a) Immigration


              *   Namibia deports ten to fifteen thousand people per
                   year and this is costing the country a lot of money.
                   People are even deported as far as China and America.




              *   Namibia needs skilled labour from other countries and
                   preference is given to citizens from SADC countries
                   when Namibia wants to contract foreign skilled
                   labour.


              *   Namibia also does not allow dual citizenship and
                   experiences many problems with farmers who stay on
                   the border and retain passports from both Namibia and
                   South Africa in order to avoid paying for study
                   permits for their children who study in South Africa.


          (b) Customs and Excise


              *   The Namibian Customs Officials said that an
                   aggressive customs oriented strategy was very
                   important to educate the public. This was achieved by
                   providing the public with information documents.


              *   Admission of guilt fines on minor customs fraud can
                   be paid.


          (c) Police: Commercial Crime Unit


              *   There are many counterfeit Rand notes in Namibia.


              *   Syndicates steal traveller's cheques in South Africa
                   and cash them in Namibia.


              *   Syndicates defraud people with "Nigerian letters".
                   These letters are faxed to Namibia from South Africa.


              *   Vehicles stolen by syndicates in South Africa are
                   brought to Namibia. Namibia is then used to register
                   the stolen vehicles after which the vehicles are
                   taken to Angola. It is very difficult to detect the
                   syndicates because when the Namibian police run a
                   computer test, they find that the vehicle is not
                   stolen. They said that they have reason to suspect
                   that the registration authority in South Africa could
                   be bribed by car theft syndicates. If the theft of a
                   vehicle is registered late on computer, it could
                   provide the syndicates with enough time to get stolen
                   vehicles to Angola.


              *   Some South African citizens also come to Namibia and
                   sell vehicles to Angolans. They then fly back to
                   South Africa and report the car that they sold as
                   stolen, in order to get insurance money. By that time
                   the vehicle is already in Angola. Some Angolan police
                   are involved in the fraud. From past experience, the
                   Namibian police said that they could not get stolen
                   vehicles back from Angola even when they could prove
                   that the cars were stolen.


              *   Cannibas is transported from South Africa to Namibia.
                   Designer drugs such as heroine and cocaine are also
                   coming to Namibia in larger amounts. Market growing
                   for cocaine and heroine.


              *   Namibian laws are too outdated to deal with crime
                   syndicates. There are also not enough resources to do
                   proper container searches at border posts. No laws in
                   Namibia to allow to investigate suspects - can only
                   do surveillance. Also no organised crime or money
                   laundering legislation. No anti-corruption office or
                   legislation.


          (d) Walvisbay Airport,  Mr D Booysen, Airport Manager; Mr S
              Mulundu, Senior Immigration Officer and Mr R Strong,
              Acting Controller: Customs and Excise


              *   The Namibian law is outdated and counterfeit goods
                   are not illegal as in South Africa.


              *   Some importers sometimes package cigarettes as
                   something else in order to evade the paying of
                   duties. Also import low quality cigarettes.


              *   The Chinese mafia and some Chinese business people
                   undervalue goods that they import.


          (e) Walvisbay Harbour, Mr Hengari, Port Operations Manager:
              Namport; Mr Muttotta, Head Maritime Directorate: Namport;
              Capt van der Meer, General Manager: Port Authority
              Division, Namport


              At the harbour, customs, immigration and police run their
              own shows respectively and are not connected to Namport.
              The Namibian Ports Authority is a fully commercialised
              government entity that took over from Portnet in 1994.
              15 - 20 Stowaways per year at the port. Ships have to
              cover cost of deportations.


 D.  Findings - Botswana


     Botswana has a population of about 1.6 million people. There are
     40 members of Parliament plus 4 specially elected members. There
     is also a house of Chiefs which act in an advisory capacity to
     Parliament. It is also a country with very extensive borders that
     are hard to patrol.


      The delegation held meetings in Botswana from Friday, 3 August
     2001 until Saturday, 4 August 2001. Meetings were held in Gaborone
     and at various border posts where the delegation was told about
     migration and related problems, as follows:


     1.  Ms T Lujabe-Rankoe, South African High Commissioner to
          Botswana


          (a) There are four commercial border posts between South
              Africa and Botswana.


          (b) There is a need for more commercialized border posts.


          (c) Officials on the South African side of border posts have
              no discipline and are inefficient. There was recently a
              problem when the President of Botswana wanted to cross a
              border post after the official closing time. Officials on
              the South African side wanted to know who was going to
              pay for their overtime.


          (d) Recently a bus that was transporting handicapped
              schoolchildren broke down. The bus reached Kopfontein
              border post at 22:07. That is 7 minutes past the official
              closing time. Officials on the South African side of the
              border post did not want to let them through and they had
              to sleep in the bus until the next morning. The next
              morning they were only helped 2 hours after official
              opening time.


          (e) Investigations into misconduct by staff members in the
              Department takes too long.


          (f) The buildings at border posts need to be upgraded and
              computers should be functional.


          (g) The system of claiming VAT refunds at border posts causes
              delays.


     2.  Minister D Kwelagobe, Minister of Home Affairs and members of
          Botswana's Parliament


          (a) Unco-ordinated times of open border posts between South
              Africa and Botswana should be addressed.


          (b) Martins drift closes at 16:00 and there is a need to
              extend the hours of operation.


          (c) Not all border posts have customs facilities and
              Ramatlabama (commercial border post) is too far from some
              towns for people to go there just too declare a vehicle
              or shopping.


          (d) 4 Families on both sides of the border fence cross
              illegally as they have to travel too far for permits.


          (e) When South Africans come to Botswana they are given a 90-
              day visit permit; but when Botswana citizens go to South
              Africa, they are only given a 30-day permit. This
              inequality should be addressed as permit extensions cost
              money.


          (f) The maintenance of the fence along the South
              African/Botswana border is poor, and it encourages stock
              theft. Stock theft along the border is rife and in the
              Kalahari area it is difficult to get stolen stock back to
              Botswana. It is alleged that the South African police
              collude with thieves. Even if 10 cattle are identified as
              stolen, only half will be returned. Always forgo a few.
              If stolen cattle is found on the Botswana side, they are
              all returned.


          (g) Game poaching is also rife on the banks of the Limpopo.


          (h) Agreements between South Africa and Botswana are difficult
              to implement. It was agreed that bridges should be built
              at 3 border posts. For example at Swartkopfontein it is
              impossible to cross after heavy rains. Another example is
              Pontsdrif that is an important crossing for a big diamond
              mine in the area. But now South Africa is saying that the
              bridges are not commercially viable.


          (i) Ramatlabama is a very busy commercial border post, on the
              Transkalahari highway, but it closes at 20:00.
              Makgobistad closes at 16:00 but it would be better to
              close at 19:00 or 20:00. Extended hours of operation
              needed.


          (j) Also need South African revenue collection facility at
              Makgobistad as even corpses are turned back to go through
              Ramatlabama to be declared. The non-establishment of
              South African revenue services contributes to problems at
              border posts. There are currently only 4 border posts
              with such facilities. Even when people carry very small
              parcels, they cannot cross at non-commercial border
              posts. They then jump the fence, rather than going on a
              detour.


          (k) Botswana citizens experience real problems to pay for
              medical insurance when they study in South Africa. South
              Africa demands that foreign students who study there,
              should have medical insurance. Poor people really
              struggle to pay for such medical insurance.


          (l) A contact-forum between Home Affairs Ministers do exist.
              Botswana also have a local working Committee at border
              post and regional level that reports to the Minister. The
              Ministers' meeting with Dr Buthelezi never materialized
              as he never has time to meet. Supposed to meet once a
              year.


          (m) There was a influx from the Far East into Botswana, and
              now the government insists that they apply for visas in
              Beijing before entering Botswana.


          (n) Minister Kwelagobe said that they propose a register for
              Chiefs that will provide a form of border control. On
              this system, Chiefs will keep a register of their tribe
              members and their crossing to South Africa.


          (o) Introduced an investment code recently for foreign
              investors. A person is recognised as an investor when he
              or she brings a certain amount of money into Botswana. A
              potential investor should also prove that he or she has a
              viable project, and then Home Affairs will process the
              necessary permits.


     3.  Ramatlabama border post


          (a) This is a commercial border post between South Africa and
              Botswana that opens at 06:00 and closes at 20:00.


          (b) The staff complain that the building is very cold in
              winter and that rain causes power cuts - also generator
              problems.


          (c) Ms M Motwe from South African Revenue Services (SARS) at
              the border post said that SARS, Home Affairs and the
              Police Service are equally responsible for the border
              post but that they have never been told who is the top
              authority at the border post. When they have meetings
              they have a rotating Chairperson. To take a decision for
              instance to stay open late should be made collectively.


          (d) It was suggested that all border posts should stay open
              later.


          (e) The public toilets at the border post are an absolute mess
              and not fit for human usage.


          (f) The security inside the buildings is poor and there is no
              security glass on the counters to protect officials.


     4.  Botswana side of Ramatlabama border post


          (a) The main complaint was that the border post should have
              extended hours of operation. Sometimes people get
              stranded due to the closure of the border post.


          (b) A complaint was also raised about the poor state of the
              fence around the border post.


          (c) Officials also said that the South African side had no
              clear line of commandment and that it created problems.


          (d) Monthly meetings at border level - interstate once a year.


     5.  Skilpadshek border post


          (a) The head of the border post was apparently ill at the time
              of the Committee's visit.  Six immigration officers work
              here and and they work in shifts of 2 at a time.


          (b) Home Affairs has no telephone or fax facilities.


          (c) Discipline seems to be slack as the delegation was
              subjected to behavior that is inconsistent with Batho
              Pele principles. We do not want to give more details
              about this, as we do not intend to target individuals.
              This is also the fruit and not the root of the problem.
              The root problem is that officials should know who the
              final authority is at any border post.


     6.  Kopfontein border post


          (a) This is the border post where the handicapped
              schoolchildren had to sleep overnight in their bus. The
              Chief Immigration Officer was not on duty at the time of
              the Committee's visit and we interviewed the senior
              immigration officers who were present. We also
              interviewed Inspector Maotwe and Inspector Tshotshe from
              SAPS and Mr Seamela from SARS.


          (b) Inspector Tshotshe said that the border post closes at
              22:00 and that special arrangements have to be made in
              advance for late entry. If an arrangement is in place
              they will stay open later he said. Commanders stipulate
              procedure and requests for late entry must be made in
              writing. He also said that he was not aware of the
              incident that took place there but he apologised for it.


          (c) Mr Seamela from SARS said that Kopfontein was a very busy
              commercial boder post. They experience many problems with
              people not wanting to pay VAT on goods. They have a large
              amount of detained goods at the border post. Detained
              furniture is stacked even in the passages.


     7.  Botswana side of Kopfontein: Tlokweng border post


          (a) Tlokweng border post is on the Botswana side of
              Kopfontein. The building is very impressive compared to
              the building on the South African side.


          (b) The Botswana immigration officials said that there was no
              co-operation from South African immigration officials,
              for example: people come through the South African side
              with other peoples Passports. Customs on the South
              African side seem to be in cahoots with fraudulent
              practices such as under-declaration and under-valuation
              of goods. VAT is also refunded on the South African side
              before goods are even cleared on the Botswana side.They
              also said that the South African movement control system
              is outdated.


           (c) More SARS services are required and the hours of
              operation at the border post should be extended.


     8.  Groblersbrug border post


          (a) This border post opens at 08:00 and closes at 18:00. We
              were told that it is becoming increasingly busy and the
              hours of operation should be extended. More staff would
              then be needed and they should be provided with proper
              accommodation.


          (b) We saw the first sign of upgrading of buildings at South
              African border posts here.


          (c) Illegals who cross into South Africa here are mostly from
              Zimbabwe. 56 Illegal immigrants were arrested here in
              December 2000.


          (d) 35 000 people use the border post per month.


          (e) There are no more army patrols as in the past.


          (f) Officials complain about lack of human resources, poor
              buildings and facilities.


          (g) They also say that they have never been inspected since
              1998 by head office.


          (h) Work well with counterparts in Botswana.


          (i) Need adequate staff housing at border post.


     9.  Martinsdrif border post (Botswana side of Groblersbrug)


          (a) A new facility to house immigration staff is nearly
              completed and the facility is very modern and spacious.


          (b) The Botswana Immigration Officials say that they have
              joint working group meeting with their counterparts in
              South Africa.


          (c) They also say that the bridge that links South Africa and
              Botswana will be renovated. The bridge will be widened in
              order to accommodate 2-way traffic and the arches will
              also be cut off as they are too low.


          (d) They proposed that the border post should be open 24
              hours.


          (e) The border post is mostly used by tourists and for
              commercial crossings.


     10. Dukwi Refugee Camp


          Some members of our delegation made a brief stop-over at the
          Dukwi Refugee Camp. This Camp historically has been a haven of
          many South African exiles. There were emotional scenes
          characterised by nostalgia when one of our delegates, the
          Honourable Chief Piet Mathebe, identified and went into a
          dwelling where he has lived. He spoke with the occupants who
          had fled from Somalia. As it was on a Sunday, we joined a
          highly spirited church service of Refugees from all over
          Africa. They honored us by giving us an opportunity to say a
          few words after which we made personal donations. Needless to
          say the refugees were greatly encouraged and impressed with
          our visit. This serendipitous encounter with the refugees at
          Dukwi deepened our understanding of the plight of refugees. We
          appreciate the harborage given by the Botswana Government and
          the subventions of the United Nations High Commission for
          Refugees.


 E.  Findings - Zimbabwe


     Zimbabwe has a population of about 12 million people. South Africa
     is connected to Zimbabwe with the Beitbridge border post, and this
     is one of the busiest border posts in Southern Africa. Zimbabwe
     has a total of 24 border posts.


     The delegation held meetings in Zimbabwe Monday, 6 August 2001
     until Wednesday, 8 August 2001. Meetings were held in Victoria
     Falls, Harare and at Beitbridge border post.


     1.  Mr Bazwi, Chief Immigration Officer, Victoria Falls


          (a) There has been a 60% decrease in tourism since the start
              of the land problems. Unemployment is high but migration
              to South Africa is undocumented.


          (b) Because of our credible passport system, people move
              illegally.


          (c) Our passport system is very strict and it takes about
              three months to be issued. A normal passport costs 500
              Zimbabwean dollars.


          (d) No dual citizenship is allowed in Zimbabwe.


          (e) Foreigners must have scarce qualifications in order to be
              granted with work permits.


          (f) Investors with 5 million US $ gets permanent residence and
              waits 5 years for citizenship.


          (g) There are refugee camps in Zimbabwe and the Zimbabwe
              Refugee Committee is the determining body for refugee
              status.


          (h) Waiting for SADC protocol on movement of goods and people
              to be finalised.


     2.  Victoria Falls Airport


          Mainly a tourist airport.


     3.  Mr Mokwadi, Chief Immigration Officer and Mr Ndlovu, Deputy
          Chief Immigration Officer, Zimbabwe


          (a) Previous immigration law was based on control but now
              selection committees are responsible for determining
              applications based on skills. In 1996 the old act was
              reviewed and discriminatory clauses were removed. The aim
              is that foreign skills should come into Zimbabwe and
              train locals. The policy is not to permit foreigners to
              work in Zimbabwe for longer than 3 years. Foreign
              investors are allowed to apply for permits and to await
              the outcome of such application from within the country.


           (b) Marriages of convenience are prevalent. On one Friday 75
              civil marriages were registered. Some even pay Lobola to
              make the marriage look authentic.


          (c) It is not really possible to enter into fraudulent
              customary marriages. The community involvement is too
              high and fraudsters will be exposed.


          (d) Zimbabwe is under pressure to relax visa regulations on
              tourism countries.


          (e) Zimbabwean Refugee Law is very liberal and recognized
              refugees can take up employment. There are about 5000
              recognised refugees in Zimbabwe.


          (f) They are housed in 5 holding camps while they await the
              outcome of their asylum applications. Most of the camps
              are close to Mozambique. The United Nations High
              Commission on Refugees assists refugees through grants.
              Mr Mokwadi said that he did not know what measures were
              in place to stop the grants once refugees were employed.


          (g) Skilled people are leaving Zimbabwe, especially since the
              start of the land crisis.


          (h) There are many Zimbabwean doctors in South Africa. Many
              Zimbabweans work on South African farms.


          (i) People who hold Temporary Residence Permits in Zimbabwe
              are mostly from South Africa, England, United States of
              America and Scandinavia. There are also Tanzanian and
              Kenyan professionals in Zimbabwe.


          He also said that the following key challenges are facing
          Zimbabwe:


          (j) To open more border posts.


          (k) Incentives and ways to attract skills to the country.


          (l) To manage the high outflow of skills out of the Department
              of Home Affairs.


          (m) To cope with the small staff compliment of 300 people in
              the Department of Home affairs.


          (n) The development and review of Immigration legislation.


          (o) Investors to be granted Permanent Residence straight away.


     4.  Zimbabwean Parliamentary Committee on Defence and Home Affairs


          (a) Cross border crime is rife and the police and immigration
              officials have inadequate resources to fight
              sophisticated crime syndicates. Stolen cars cross borders
              amazingly quickly.


          (b) The housing for police at Beitbridge is inadequate. They
              stay in old horse stables and old police cells that have
              been converted. Many police officers die of Aids and this
              problem is burdening the State. It is difficult to issue
              death certificates due to so many Aids deaths clogging
              the system.


     5.  Minister J L Nkomo, Minister of Home Affairs, Zimbabwe


          (a) As the Minister of Home Affairs Minister Nkomo is also
              responsible for Security and Order in Zimbabwe.


          (b) Britain has never made money for land resettlement
              available as they promised even after the signing at
              Lancaster House. 32 million pounds was promised by
              Britain, but now the new Labour Party does not want to
              honor the Conservative Party's commitment. If the
              commitment that was made at Lancaster house were honored,
              there would have been no land crisis in Zimbabwe.


          (c) The government agreed with farmers on a willing buyer
              willing seller clause when they discussed land
              redistribution, but after the agreement farmers were
              unwilling to sell land. In 1998 agreed with farmers that
              the situation should be reviewed.


          (d) The government intends to redistribute 8 million hectares
              of land and leave 4 million hectares for commercial
              farmers. Government also established a joint distribution
              Committee with farmers. Most commercial farms only
              utilize 30% of the land.


          (e) The government does not want people to invade farms and
              land not identified for redistribution will be left
              alone. There will also be no new farm invasions.
              Government lost control when invasions started but will
              not allow it to happen again. The absence of definitive
              laws/legal instruments causes problems for the country as
              3/4 of the Law and Order Act, was declared
              Unconstitutional. There is thus no law that addresses the
              Zimbabwean situation adequately at present. The
              government is battling to be in control.


          (f) Fake travel documents are rampant and many drug syndicates
              operate in the country.
          (g) 90% of companies in Zimbabwe have their origin in South
              Africa.


     6.  Beitbridge Border Post, Mr Chitsaka, Principal Immigration
          Officer; Mr Y Jacob, Head of Customs, Zimbabwe; Mr J Moyo,
          Regional Commissioner, Customs; Mr L Ndlovu, Customs, Mr
          Ngoma, President's Office, Zimbabwe


          (a) This is a commercial and the busiest border post in SADC
              and commercial clearing takes place between 08:00 and
              18:00.


          (b) The border is too long to be effective and illegals cross
              regularly.


          (c) 1 000 vehicles cross into Zimbabwe every day and 1000 into
              South Africa. It means that 2000 vehicles use Beitbridge
              every day.


          (d) Young people enter South Africa legally and then they look
              for work in South Africa and do not return to Zimbabwe.
              Women who use border passes and farm laborers tend to
              return to Zimbabwe.


          (e) Corrupt practices are rife at the border post but monthly
              liaison meetings are held with South African counterparts
              in an attempt to co-operate and solve problems at border
              post level.


          (f) Queues are too long and the answer might be to open the
              border post 24 hours. It will also prevent trucks from
              staying overnight at Beitbridge. The concept of a one-
              stop border post should be considered seriously. This
              would mean that South African and Zimbabwean operations
              would be merged. This could be more cost effective and
              would save a lot of time. The border post will be more
              efficient. The Zimbabwean side presently not
              computerized. This makes it more difficult for example to
              ensure that vehicles that cross are not stolen.


          (g) South African side of Beitbridge Border Post.


          We were glad to see a big team from the South African Revenue
          Services deployed here. The whole atmosphere was different
          than the time of our previous visit. Everything seemed to run
          smoothly and security was also much better than during our
          previous visit.


 F.  Findings - Mozambique


     Mozambique has a population of about 18 million people. South
     Africa is connected to Mozambique through the Komatiepoort border
     post, and this is one of the busiest border posts in SADC.


     The delegation held meetings in Mozambique from Thursday, 9 August
     2001 until Friday, 10 August 2001. All meetings were held in
     Maputo.


     1.  Mavalane International Airport, Maputo


          (a) Mavalane airport is the largest airport in Mozambique. 350
              people are employed there, of whom 163 work directly for
              the airport. The rest work for companies who operate at
              the airport. It is also open 24 hours a day.


          (b) A committee on facilitation and security deals with
              migration and customs issues. Just like other airports
              not all passengers are searched upon arrival. Searches
              depend on information received and where the flight is
              from. They are busy to establish the 2-tier system of the
              red and green line, as at most other international
              airports. This system works on the principle that a
              domestic passenger who returns from abroad should choose
              either the green or red channel. The passenger chooses
              the appropriate channel if something is to be declared or
              not.


          (c) There are no sniffer dogs at the airport.


          (d) There is a system whereby passengers from countries that
              have no Mozambican Embassy, can obtain a visa upon
              arrival at the airport. Illegals try to abuse this
              system. Most illegals are from Pakistan, Nigeria and the
              Great Lakes region. They use Mozambique as a transit to
              South Africa, but Mozambique is also cheaper to live in
              than the Great Lakes region.


     2.  Y J Duarte, South African High Commissioner to Mozambique


          (a) The Komatipoort border post between South Africa and
              Mozambique is very busy. South Africa exports goods to
              the value of R5 billion to Mozambique per year.
              Mozambique only exports goods to the value of R380 000 to
              South Africa per year. The imbalance is very big. South
              Africa is Mozambique's prime resource for goods and
              services.


          (b) South Africa repatriated 180 000 Mozambicans in 2000
              compared to 60 000 Zimbabweans. There are many
              Mozambicans in South Africa with false documents. Some
              even draw pensions in South Africa.


          (c) The South African High Commission in Maputo receives 500 -
              800 visa applications per day.  Mozambicans go to shop in
              Nelspruit and Nelspruits' economy will not survive
              without Mozambican trade.  People follow goods, that is
              why they shop in South Africa.


          (d) The closure of the Mbuzini Tunnel caused many problems as
              the fence divides the Mahlalela tribe. Since the closure
              of the tunnel, they have to take a detour to visit across
              the border.


           (e) South Africa cannot scrap Visa requirements for
              Mozambicans. The next step should be a SADC visa and
              prospect of no Visa should be a future vision.


          (f) 8 000 - 9 000 Mozambican children school in the
              Komatiepoort area. 12 000 children from the Gaza area
              school in South Africa.


     3.  Minister A Manhenje, Minister of Interior and Defence


          (a) Mozambique does have an Immigration Bill but the region
              needs a common approach to migration at SADC level.


          (b) Did meet with Minister Buthelezi to discuss migration
              issues.


          (c) Mozambique is in favor of moving step by step in the
              process to remove restrictions regarding the movement of
              SADC citizens.


          (d) Many Mozambicans want to go to South Africa, as they
              believe that people get rich quickly there. Mozambique
              wants to stop illegal crossings to South Africa, but
              employment in Mozambique is scarce.


          (e) Migration to Mozambique is not from SADC countries but
              mostly from Somalia, Nigeria, Congo and Angola. These
              migrants are mostly economic refugees.


          (f) The split tribe issue should be resolved, not manage to do
              so yet. Swaziland and Tanzania established free movement
              for split tribes to attend funerals etc. The Minister
              said that in southern Mozambique he saw South Africans in
              traditional clothes at a function that see themselves as
              part of a tribe who live in Mozambique. The leader of
              this tribe lives in Swaziland. He said that they try to
              facilitate the movement of such tribe members.


          (g) Mozambican law does not allow dual citizenship.


     4.  Maputo Harbour, Mr. S Ndlovu, National Director of Shipping
          and Ports, Mozambique


          (a) Stowaways are mostly from Tanzania and Kenya, and they
              usually want to go to South Africa. Some think that
              Mozambique would provide a better life than the Great
              Lakes region. Some attempt to go to the United States of
              America and Europe.


          (b) It is difficult to inspect goods in transit, as
              international law does not allow one to inspect goods in
              transit.


          (c) Mr Ndlovu said that Mozambique has no specific law on
              Migration and that they try to adhere to United Nations
              laws on refugees and migration.


     5.  Mr Momade, National Director for Migration, Mozambique


          There are good relations between Mozambique and South Africa
          at border post level.


          When looking at a SADC immigration policy, the following
          should be remembered/discussed:


          (a) The security of each country i.e. trafficking of drugs,
              weapons and people. (But even with strict laws these
              problems are still there).


          (b) The negative effects of open borders.


          (c) Positive ways to facilitate the movement of goods and
              people.
          (d) Risks will always exist.


          (e) If SADC members receive the same treatment in other SADC
              countries as non-SADC members then there is no benefit of
              SADC membership.


          (f) Problems in SADC are not unique as Europe is full of
              illegals.


          (g) Even the USA is full of illegals, and this should not
              prevent the free movement of people and goods.


          (h) South Africa can fulfill the role to "kick start" all
              other SADC countries in the direction of free movement as
              South Africa is very developed, and any example provided
              by South Africa will have a great impact on SADC.


          (i) There would actually be better control if borders are
              opened to free movement as then you will know exactly how
              many people came to a country - even with control people
              just move illegally and governments do not know how many
              people came to their countries.


 G.  Acknowledgements


     1.  We thank the National Assembly for having granted us
          permission to undertake this Study Tour and funding it.


     2.  We thank the Department of Foreign Affairs for making the
          services of its Foreign Missions available to facilitate the
          scheduling of meetings for the Committee in the various
          countries.


 H.  Recommendations


     1. The Committee should undertake a Study Tour of:


          (a) Swaziland
          (b) Lesotho
          (c) Durban harbour
          (d) East London harbour
          (e) Port Elizabeth harbour
          (f) Mossel Bay


          This will enable us to have a panoramic view of migration and
          border/port control in the SADC region.


          (g) We should also revisit Cape Town harbour and Cape Town
              International Airport.


     2.  We urge all SADC countries to give Home Affairs a distinct
          profile as opposed to merging it with other line functions as
          this suppresses and undermines crucial aspects of Home
          Affairs.


     3.  Home Affairs Porfolio Committees of SADC countries should
          convene in order to establish a common understanding of
          Parliamentary oversight.


     4.  Such a Home Affairs Parliamentary Committee of SADC could play
          a vital role in assisting the African Union to deal with Home
          Affairs issues, borders, immigration, citizenship, drug
          trafficking, contraband goods, customs and excise, stowaways
          etc. Such a forum will be in a very good position to deal with
          the issue of communities that are split by border fences, a
          common SADC problem. The forum could also discuss a SADC
          policy on foreign investors and joint ventures.


     5.  Ministers of Home Affairs of SADC countries should meet on a
          regular basis as it is clear that there is a comprehensive
          need for a SADC protocol on Migration.
     6.  SADC countries should help each other to develop legislation
          in respect of organized crime, Immigration and border control.


     7.  The idea of "one stop" border facilities should be given
          serious attention. Such a system could save time and co-
          ordinate and facilitate better border control at SADC level.


     8.  To establish more customs facilities at some South African
          border posts, especially between South Africa and Botswana
          should be investigated at Ministerial level. Such an
          investigation should also look at co-ordinating the times of
          open border posts between countries, especially in respect of
          commercial border posts.


     9.  The Department of Home Affairs should give more attention to
          train its personnel properly. All the departments represented
          at the border posts should train their staff to be more people
          friendly as they are the first line of communication to people
          who visit our country. The first responsibility however should
          always be proper border control. This can only be achieved
          with proper training. Discipline of all staff is vital and any
          staff member who does not act responsibly, such as being under
          the influence of alcohol on duty, that we as a Committee have
          experienced, must be severely dealt with.


     10. Computers must be upgraded at border posts, hardware as well
          as software.


     11. Immediate attention should be given to the unexceptable
          situation of public facilities at border posts, eg the poor
          state of offices, ablution facilities and border fences as
          outlined in the report.
     12. More frequent contacts and visits by the Minister, Director-
          General and Regional Representatives to the various border
          posts must be undertaken on a regular basis to acquaint
          themselves with the needs and problems experienced by our
          personnel.


     13. Proposals put forward by our neighbouring States to improve
          trade and better relations between SADC countries, as well as
          border incidents reported, should be handled in a much more
          professional and sensitive manner. Insidents and proposals as
          highlighted in the report, are after months still not given
          the necessary attention.


 I.  Conclusion


     1.  This Study Tour was a real eye-opener. We adopted an open-
          minded approach, which enabled us to learn from our neighbors,
          and also influenced them. Our hosts were extremely impressed
          with our approach, as they perceived that we did not come to
          their countries riding a high horse, but to persuade them to
          move along with South Africa, as we are busy processing an
          Immigration Bill that will affect them intimately.


     2.  Criminals exploit border control. Current control measures are
          not sufficient to stop, smuggling, VAT exploitation or the
          movement of illegals across SADC borders.


     3.  Resources are lacking, especially at South African border
          posts where buildings, equipment, toilets facilities are
          insufficient. Accommodation for staff at especially rural
          border posts not sufficient in South Africa and for example.
          Zimbabwe.


     4.  Staff morale and discipline is also unsatisfactory at South
          African border posts.


     5.  Corruption at some border posts also seems to be out of
          control.


     6.  Some SADC countries urgently need to enact laws that will
          empower them to deal with problems that are prevalent in our
          modern day society where criminal syndicates are very well
          organized and exploit loopholes in legislation and border
          control.


      7.  The system of claiming VAT at South African border posts
          causes delays.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on Visit to Beitbridge, dated 23 January 2002:

 The Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, having visited Beitbridge,
 reports as follows:
 A.  Introduction


     Following widespread media reports that there was abnormal traffic
     congestion to the extent that a six km queue had been formed at
     the Beitbridge Border Post in Messina in the days shortly
     preceding Christmas Day, I (Aubrey Mokoena) telephoned the new
     Chief Whip on 22 December 2001, the Hon Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula,
     to grant permission for me and any available member of the
     Committee to conduct an emergency oversight visit to that Border
     Post. Such permission was telephonically duly granted immediately.


 B.  Operations


     In summary, I contacted the Hon Chief Walter Morwamoche, who lives
     in the Northern Province, and asked him to join me. He agreed. I
     drove in my car to pick him up at Jane Furse on Sunday 23 December
     2001, at 17:00.
     I had earlier communicated with the Director-General, Mr Billy
     Masetlha, to make him aware that we were on our way.


     On our way, we encountered numerous roadblocks instituted by the
     SANDF. Our passage was facilitated by prior communication with the
     Northern Province Regional Director, Mr M V Mabunda, who had
     received instructions from the Director-General. We arrived at
     Beitbridge at 23:00 and performed the oversight function until
     04:00 in the morning.


     The following morning at 08:00 we started with further interviews
     on the South African side, after which we proceeded to the
     Zimbabwean side. We completed our work at 15:00 on 24 December and
     drove back home.


     We interviewed officials from the Immigration Service, SARS, SAPS
     and SANDF to find out from them why the service at the bridge was
     characterised by such lethargy. We also interviewed pedestrians,
     travellers, motorists and commercial truck drivers.


 C.  Evidence


     The evidence is crystallised as follows:


     1.  The co-ordinating committee at Beitbridge, consisting of the
          Immigration Service, SARS, SAPS and the SANDF, is not
          functioning well.


     2.  No-one is directly responsible for the overall control of
          Beitbridge. This causes the management of the bridge to be
          poor.


     3.  Each of the four units mentioned under paragraph 1 operates as
          an entity with its own freedom.


     4.  There is an overlap of roles, i.e. the Police try to do
          immigration work. This causes overlapping and delays.


     5.  The computers at Beitbridge are not linked to the Home Affairs
          mainframe at the Pretoria Head Office. Information can thus
          not be verified speedily.


     6.  There was a shortage of staff to deal with the expected
          festive season travellers.


     7.  Although the border post was open 24 hours a day, serious
          problems arose due to the fact that the Beitbridge Border
          Clearing Agency did not function 24 hours a day. This agency
          is responsible for clearing commercial trucks. The trucks thus
          blocked the road while waiting for the clearing agency to
          open.


 D.  Recommendations
     1.  There should be separate mandatory parking facilities for
          commercial trucks, as they cause further congestion. It takes
          more time to clear a commercial truck to cross the bridge
          than, for instance, a family who is going on holiday. When
          trucks are being cleared to cross the bridge, they contribute
          to the traffic congestion, as they do not make use of the
          parking facilities demarcated for them. The clearing agency
          should also operate 24 hours a day when the bridge is open 24
          hours a day during the festive season. This will go a long way
          towards keeping the flow of commercial trucks going.


     2.  Traffic officers must be involved in traffic flow management,
          instead of this role being left to the police. Traffic
          officers should also have been present to sensitise motorists
          to the "Arrive Alive Campaign".


     3.  After an earlier visit of our Committee to Beitbridge, SARS
          implemented an audit at the bridge. During this time a whole
          team was sent to investigate the operations at the bridge. Our
          Committee visited the bridge during this "blitz audit", and
          operations at the bridge ran much smoother than during our
          previous visit. This type of audit should be sustained on a
          permanent basis and should not be done as an ad hoc exercise.


     4.  The structural layout of the bridge should also be improved to
          facilitate better traffic management, even to the extent of
          separating commercial and holiday travellers.


     5.  The overall management of the bridge should be improved.
          Someone will have to take control over all the units
          (Immigration, SARS, SAPS, SANDF) that function at the bridge.
          It is very important that a Ministry becomes the definitive
          authority to take overall authority of all these units at
          border posts. There should be a Cabinet decision on this
          issue, as it is a policy decision that will affect all border
          posts. During our oversight visits last year to various border
          posts, we saw that serious problems are being created due to
          the fact that there is no definitive authority to take overall
          responsibility. The current situation at border posts can be
          compared to a school with many teachers but no principal. Such
          a situation is a recipe for disaster.


 E.  Official personnel interviewed


     1.  Rudy Hartman, Home Affairs
     2.  Lindiwe Meirotti, Home Affairs
     3.  Inspector Augustinus, SAPS
     4.  Sergeant Nel, SAPS
     5.  Serole Makwele, SARS
     6.  Marshal Mutepe, Home Affairs
     7. Zimbabwean officials
          *  Mujuru Mangco
          *  Sefheni Ncube
          *  Weston Gasva