National Assembly - 12 June 2002
WEDNESDAY, 12 JUNE 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 15:28.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.
LATE START OF PROCEEDINGS
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I do not believe that I have to apologise for the late start today. [Applause.] Unfortunately, the collective force of our efforts did not succeed. Nonetheless, I am sure that we all, in the House, wish Bafana Bafana well and think that they played a great game. [Applause.]
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr M A MAZIYA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that President Thabo Mbeki has called on the rich nations at the World Food Summit in Rome to allow developing countries to have access to their markets, which is a key element to fight hunger and poverty;
(2) believes that access to these markets will lead to much-needed investment in agriculture and rural development, and that the goal of food security will be achieved;
(3) echoes the call made by the President; and
(4) calls on the rich countries to work towards sustainable livelihoods in the rural areas of the developing countries by encouraging investment in the agricultural sector.
[Applause.]
Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes with distaste the offers made by the ANC in KwaZulu-Natal to two senior DA members in an effort to induce them to cross the floor to the ANC;
(2) further notes that the ANC provincial chairperson, S’bu Ndebele, is making use of public servants to do his dirty work in contravention of the Public Service Act of 1994; and
(3) deplores the desperate actions of the ANC, which is corruptly selling government jobs in return for opposition members handing over their seats to the power-hungry ANC.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chair, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes with delight that 442 Medium B prisoners at Rooigrond Prison in Mafikeng donated their day’s food rations to homeless children;
(2) further notes that the inmates also staged a play for the children, encouraging them not to commit crime but to get an education and jobs;
(3) applauds the inmates for their generosity; and
(4) thanks the Ministry of Correctional Services for looking after the inmates.
Mr B M KOMPHELA: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the Office on the Status of Disabled Persons, OSDP, in the
Presidency launched a campaign to encourage young people with
disabilities to speak out about their lives; and
(b) the voice of the young people with disabilities campaign is part
of the OSDP's national awareness plan to support the
implementation of the Government's Integrated National
Disability Strategy;
(2) believes that people with disability have rights, which must be protected and upheld by all; and
(3) welcomes the launch of this campaign as it will contribute positively to sensitising our people and the country to the experience of young people living with disabilities.
[Applause.]
Mnr J J DOWRY: Mnr die Voorsitter, namens die Nuwe NP gee ek hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis gaan voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) met genoeë verneem van die bevindinge van die 2002 Initial Quality Study deur die gesaghebbende Amerikaanse groep JD Powers & Associates dat die Rosslyn-aanleg van BMW in Pretoria motors van ‘n beter gehalte lewer as selfs die moederfabrieke in Duitsland;
(2) daarvan kennis neem dat -
(a) Rosslyn 10% van sy lonerekening aan opleiding, maar spesifiek
ook aan opvoeding, bestee vergeleke met die tussen 1% en 3% van
die meeste ander motorvervaardigers; en
(b) sy hoogs opgeleide en goed besoldigde werkers en vakbonde dit
begryp, en dat dit bewys dat jy nie 'n wêreldspeler kan wees
sonder om werk van die hoogste gehalte te verrig nie;
(3) hulle gelukwens met hierdie prestasie en hul nog verdere volgehoue sukses toewens; en
(4) onderneem om maatreëls in te stel in die Staatsdiens om volgens dieselfde gesonde beginsels produktief diens van wêreldgehalte in die openbare sektor te lewer. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mr J J DOWRY: Mr Chairman, on behalf of the New NP I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move:
That the House -
(1) notes with pleasure the findings of the 2002 Initial Quality Study by the authoritative American group JD Powers and Associates that the Rosslyn plant of BMW in Pretoria produces motorcars of an even better quality than the mother factories in Germany;
(2) notes that -
(a) Rosslyn spends 10% of its wage bill on training, but, more
specifically, also on education, compared to between 1% and 3%
of most other motor vehicle manufacturers; and
(b) its highly trained and well-paid workers and unions understand
this and that this proves that one cannot be a world player
without delivering work of the highest quality;
(3) congratulates them on this achievement and wishes them further sustained success; and
(4) undertakes to introduce measures in the Public Service according to the same sound principles to deliver productive service of world quality in the public sector.]
Mr M N RAMODIKE: Chairperson, I give notice that I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of this House:
That the House -
(1) notes that hunger, malnutrition and the resultant vulnerability to disease, especially in the rural areas of our country where poverty prevails, are serious problems which impact negatively on the ability of our people to become productive participants in our economy;
(2) recognises and welcomes the efforts of graphic design student Jonathan Edwards of Buffalo City in designing a project aimed at assisting the rural poor with small-scale agricultural activity, promoting food security;
(3) salutes Jonathan Edwards and all South Africans actively involved in reaching out and empowering less fortunate South Africans; and
(4) calls upon all South Africans to emulate this noble deed.
Mr A MLANGENI: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House - (1) notes that -
(a) Mr Wally Muller, a former coach of the Gauteng Cricket Board,
passed away on Sunday, 9 June 2002; and
(b) Mr Muller played a pivotal role in the development of cricket in
Gauteng in his capacity as Bakers Mini Cricket co-ordinator for
Gauteng province, liaison officer in the Under-19 World Cricket
Cup in 1998 for the SA team and as assistant coach for the
Gauteng youth team that toured Kenya in 1999;
(2) acknowledges the role Mr Wally Muller played in the development of cricket; and
(3) expresses its deepest condolences to his family, his friends and his colleagues.
[Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Chair, I give notice that I will move on behalf of the ACDP at the next sitting of this House:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the Zimbabwean President, Robert Mugabe, has again been at the
centre of global attention at the United Nations World Food
Summit in Rome, where he became the target of blistering
criticism for his objectionable governance and land policies;
and
(b) he also came under fire for his government's food aid
distribution patterns, in which he is accused of feeding his
supporters only and not giving aid to those people perceived to
be members of the opposition;
(2) calls on the South African Government to take heed of these concerns, as well as those expressed by the Danish Doctors for Human Rights, to ensure that there is no discrimination regarding the distribution of food aid in Zimbabwe; and
(3) expresses its heartfelt concern regarding the severe hardships and suffering experienced by Zimbabweans at his time.
[Applause.]
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Chairman, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting I shall move:
That the House -
(1) expresses its distaste at the hypocrisy of President Robert Mugabe who, despite the EU travel ban, is attending the UN Food Summit in Italy while he encourages his supporters at home to invade commercial farms and destroy Zimbabwe’s ability to produce food; (2) notes that an estimated 5 million Zimbabweans are on the verge of starvation;
(3) calls on President Mbeki and his Nepad partners to have the courage of their convictions and act against the Mugabe government, in the interests of the survival of all Zimbabweans and also to save the Nepad initiative.
Mr L M KGWELE: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the statement by the Minister of Education, the hon Prof Kader Asmal, that teachers should not take up teaching posts overseas under the pretext of taking long leave or sick leave;
(2) believes that this practice disrupts the entire schooling process and does not contribute positively to building an efficient public school system which responds to the developmental needs of the country and its people; and
(3) calls on teachers to desist from this behaviour and to work with Government and stakeholders towards a nonracial, nonsexist and dynamic education system for all.
Mr B G BELL: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) some Mpumalanga MECs continue to be paid between R5 000 and R8
000 a month for staying in their own houses; and
(b) other legislature members live rent-free in flats paid for by
taxpayers;
(2) expresses its shock that the provincial Cabinet has approved a scheme to build luxury accommodation for politicians at a cost of R53 million; and
(3) calls on the ANC in Mpumalanga to stop milking the taxpayers for self- gain and commit themselves to serving the people who are really in need.
[Applause.]
Mr B W DHLAMINI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) takes delight in the co-operation the community of Khayelitsha is giving to the police when they investigate crimes;
(2) notes that this co-operation has seen many criminals being arrested and taking responsibility for their crimes; and
(3) believes and hopes that other communities in other areas will emulate this culture of rounding up the criminals strategically so that they could be wiped out of society.
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) inmates at the Rooigrond Prison in Mafikeng donated their day's
food rations to homeless children last Tuesday;
(b) the inmates staged a play for children, showing them life in
prison; and
(c) the message of the play was ``don't commit crime, get an
education and then a job''; and
(2) commends the Department of Correctional Services in the North-West and the inmates for embarking on this good cause.
[Applause.]
Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the strike action by Cosatu against violence on trains is to go
ahead on Thursday, with the inclusion of the SA Clothing and
Textile Workers Union;
(b) violence on trains is unacceptable and is a deterrent to
sustained economic growth if dealt with in the manner proposed
by the labour movement;
(c) the intention by Cosatu is definitely not the solution, as the
implementation of the safety regulator will provide the impetus
for greater safety on trains; and
(d) the intended strike may have enormous implications for an
already fragile economy within the Western Cape and will have a
negative effect on issues like unemployment, income distribution
and poverty alleviation; and
(2) calls upon Cosatu and the Government to go back to the table to enter into meaningful dialogue to resolve the issue of train safety in the best interests of all the stakeholders.
Mrs N C NKABINDE: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of this House:
That the House -
(1) is outraged at the decision of the Minister of Health, the hon Tshabalala-Msimang, to stall the R800 million international Aids grant intended for KwaZulu-Natal on the spurious grounds that the provincial health authorities had not followed proper channels of communication;
(2) views the Minister’s preoccupation with bureaucratic procedures as a callous disregard for life because the protocol she insists on will result in a costly delay in terms of health and life; and
(3) calls on the Minister to regard the Aids crisis as a national emergency whose cost in lives amounts to a state of war and should, therefore, be addressed as such by withdrawing her stalling measures and allowing the grant to reach the KwaZulu-Natal Aids victims.
[Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) President Bakil Muluzi of Malawi is seeking a third term in
office and that the ruling party is seeking to change the
constitution accordingly; and
(b) these attempts to change the constitution have attracted large-
scale protests in the streets, as well as from local and
international bodies and organisations, namely, the Malawi
Council of Churches, the Muslims and the Council for Non-
Governmental Organisations of Malawi, who are in agreement that
the constitutional change should not occur and have voiced their
opposition; and
(2) in view of the aforementioned, calls upon our Government to use its influence in the region and with the government of Malawi to express its concern and opposition to the proposed constitutional changes.
CONGRATULATIONS TO BAFANA BAFANA
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that Bafana Bafana lost 3-2 in a match against Spain in the World Cup competition in Daejeon, South Korea;
(2) believes that -
(a) Bafana Bafana displayed excellent talent and played world cup
matches diligently in a competition where the world champion,
France, was eliminated; and
(b) Bafana Bafana have represented our country admirably and have
served as an inspiration to all our people, young and old; and
(3) congratulates Bafana Bafana on their splendid performance in the 2002 World Cup soccer competition in Daejeon, South Korea.
Ndizani Bafana Ndizani.
Agreed to.
RATIFICATION OF DECISION OF JOINT PROGRAMME SUBCOMMITTEE TO FAST-TRACK FLOOR-CROSSING BILLS
(Draft Resolution) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the draft resolution in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House ratifies the decision the Joint Programme Subcommittee on 11 June 2002 took in accordance with Joint Rule 216(2), namely that the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B 17B
- 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74), Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 22B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75) and Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 25 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76) be fast-tracked by, where necessary, shortening any period within which any step in the legislative process relating to the Bills must be completed, in order to make it possible for the Bills to be passed by Tuesday, 18 June 2002 (see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 11 June 2002, p 652).
Agreed to. APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 2 - Parliament:
The SPEAKER: Mr Chairperson, I have just been asked if the hon members are allowed to heckle. I cannot call members to order, so they should feel free to do so! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
At the risk of spoiling the lovely time that some people think they are going to have, I want to begin with the bad news, i.e the immediate financial and organisational challenges that face this institution in arresting the deleterious impact of scarce resources on our capacity to function.
This year, Parliament had submitted a budget which, at R498,5 million, exceeded the MTEF guideline by R52 million. However, we were advised by the Treasury that the amount approved was only a little over R469 million, which, though R23 million above the MTEF guideline, is still R28 million less than the amount requested. How do we now make further cuts, even as members are asking for more resources? More importantly, in the years ahead, how do we move forward and acquire the resources that will enable the transformation and development of Parliament?
In January, the Presiding Officers submitted a report to the Joint Rules Committee on the problems of preparing the budget submission, and drew attention to the deficit. The presiding officers invited the Joint Rules Committee to recommend remedies. Four and a half months later we have not received a single comment nor any recommendation from any political party or member of the committee. At the following meeting of the Joint Rules Committee, in this term, parties indicated that they had not had time to consider our report and discuss the issues.
There have, however, been numerous requests to authorise additional and necessary expenditure for members’ facilities and other matters.
I would like to quote from our report to the JRC on the views of the Minister of Finance, expressed during his meeting with the presiding officers:
The Minister repeated his previous concern at the absence of a vision linked to a strategy and costs. He also indicated that he held the view that members required improved support to strengthen their work in committees and to enhance their interaction with the different function areas.
The report continues:
He stated that it was vital for Parliament to develop a plan to utilise as its strategic vision for the next few years. Such a plan could then be the basis for our next submission.
I am convinced that should Parliament put forward its vision and strategy with a budget, we would receive a favourable response within, of course, the national resources available. This is the third occasion on which the Minister expressed this view. I have also previously recommended a 5-year programme cycle, to accommodate the changes due to elections.
However, in the absence of any interest from members and political parties, who is going to engage in defining a strategic vision and when? And to what extent are we able to improve our budget process?
The democratic changes that we have brought to this institution bring both responsibility and obligations. It is, therefore, incumbent on political parties to so organise their members and political responsibilities as to allow time to carry out these traditional obligations.
Unless we are able to do this, there will continue to be a vacuum in important areas, and the management and organisation of Parliament will inevitably leave much to be desired. The delays last year in dealing with Parliament’s budget by ourselves is merely one example.
However, I said bad news came first. We have achieved a great deal and no one can deny that we have managed the transition to a democratic Parliament quite smoothly. In 1994 there was little time to redesign all institutions, least of all this one.
We expanded our representative base and quickly learnt how to operate and function within the existing institution. We also democratised decision- making in the management of this institution, including the budget. In an ad hoc way, we did much more and we must take credit for our achievements. In many cases we have gone further with transformation than the long- established democratic parliaments have been able to do.
But simply running an old institution more democratically and by new people is not enough. Nine years on, we need to consider the organisational design of Parliament and its operation, and assess these in the context of the founding principles of our Constitution. We have successfully managed an incredible legislative workload every year since 1994, averaging over 100 Bills a year and 180 since the 1999 elections. However, we must question how many amendments arose because legislation was poorly drafted, not properly conceived or thought through, or implementation problems not properly anticipated. Initially, this was understandable, but by now the executive and Parliament should have overcome the early problems.
Over 50% of the legislation presented to Parliament consists of amendments, though a more thorough analysis is necessary. We are programming our workload much more efficiently than before, and committees and the executive are meeting deadlines.
The Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of Committees, the hon Doidge and Cassim, are being provided with more conducive working space and staff to manage and assist the work of committees. There is a need to review the committee section, its organisation, and the number and capacity of staff. The legal services of Parliament should have the capacity to advise on the constitutionality of legislation and drafting.
Committee organisation and functions need examination. Committees should be able to plan and set programmes within priorities and mandates set by the National Assembly. We also need to empower them through subject-specific training for members, and appropriate research support. They cannot continue to function mainly on the basis of information that is supplied by the departments they are required to oversee.
It is iniquitous to give each committee the same funding, regardless of its workload. The same applies to allocation of time, and the assumption that all committees should sit simultaneously throughout the year.
The recommendations of the National Assembly Workshop on Committees need to be taken further and the Rules re-examined once policy is agreed.
Committees are also expected to exercise oversight. The ad hoc committee on this subject should be making its final report shortly, and this will provide an opportunity for the Rules Committee and the House to consider changes.
A proper assessment of accountability and oversight under our constitutional principles may help us to shift away from the constant confrontation and electoral politics that characterises our debates in this regard.
The problems of Scopa have, unfortunately, been debated primarily in the media. The committee has been mired in controversies around the arms deal. Is it not time this House looked at and considered the functioning and workload of this committee, not in the interests of a particular party, but in relation to the constitutional obligations of this House?
Oversight of the institutions established under Chapter 9 of the Constitution and bodies established under legislation also need to be reviewed, for Parliament has no mechanisms for performing this function.
Further, the democratic South Africa has not only re-entered the international arena, but is now also playing a significant role in many organisations and has made numerous commitments and agreements. This Parliament needs to consider and establish proper mechanisms for monitoring and oversight. There is a great deal of international experience on which we can draw. The Working Group on the African Union is examining this, and will be tabling recommendations. The research and information of the working group will have to be applied to all areas of South Africa’s international involvement.
One of our achievements is the way we have organised ourselves on the basis of inclusivity, from seating arrangements in the Chamber to the fullest participation in all our proceedings. In 1994 we had six parties, today we have thirteen. After yesterday’s adoption of legislation facilitating crossing the floor, I will not venture to comment on the number of parties in the House in a month’s time! [Interjections.] However, when we consider the practices elsewhere which limit participation by parties under a minimum threshold, we have been very democratic and impose no barriers.
Of course the smaller parties do complain, as on occasion does the majority party. But there is one issue of inclusiveness that does need to be re- examined. I am referring to the allocation of speaking time in debates. This is arranged by agreement among the parties, and is proportionate to the number of elected representatives.
However, there are few, if any, amongst us in the House who can emulate the brevity or the poetry of the great writer who encapsulated the entire miracle of changing water into wine at a wedding feast into a mere nine words: ``The Lord looked upon the water and it blushed.’’
Would anyone seriously suggest that the views of any political party on a major issue can be expressed in nine words or in two or three minutes? [Applause.] Yet, this is the time we allow the smaller parties. Surely if we are serious about debating issues we must find a better way of managing this. [Applause.] And I would look to smaller parties to make proposals that accommodate also the needs of the larger parties.
Let us be mindful that we are setting precedents and practices for the future. Parties who assume they will have increasing support at every election do so at their own peril. Support can rise or fall, and in democracies majorities and minorities are transient. [Applause.]
It is, therefore, in the interest of all parties, and of democracy, that we build inclusivity and best democratic practice into our work, even at the possible cost of immediate party interests.
The establishment of a Pan-African Parliament, which will probably happen this year, will impose a further workload on members, as does our increasing involvement in international organisations. We do have to rethink our international obligations to take on board our greater involve in Africa and make adequate provision in our programmes.
While we have programmed our legislative workload more effectively, there is no common view among parties on the activities to which MPs should devote their time, and on the priorities.
We have agreed there should be provision for committee and plenary work, family time and constituency work. We try to accommodate these in each term. However, should we be functioning on the basis that MPs will return to their constituencies each weekend and that Parliament should make provision for this in terms of tickets and working hours in Parliament?
Further, the constituency system that we have established does not take into account the proportional representation system and the fact that representative legislatures are no longer the domain of individual representatives, but of political parties. It may well be that we formally acknowledge this by allocating additional resources to political parties which they can use to establish offices or do political work with, of course, with stringent accounting and auditing requirements. This would be to replace the constituency allowances that are now being provided.
Parliament also needs to expand its own public education and outreach programmes, including the possible establishment of parliamentary offices. Members of all parties would need to be involved in this work as part of their parliamentary responsibilities. Matters such as this would clearly best be considered after the Slabbert committee has reported and a future electoral system has been determined. We may need to come back to specific proposals later this year.
I wish to return to the budget and the way in which we manage Parliament. There is a contradiction between the responsibilities allocated under the PMFA and our current Rules. We cannot allocate legal responsibility to officials or to office bearers which, in terms of the Rules, they are unable to fulfil. The new legislation that will seek to apply the requirements of the PMFA to Parliament will have to look into this and amend either the Rules or the Bill. The same would apply to financial provisions within the powers and privileges legislation.
Notwithstanding the severe limitations on staff arising in part from the administration bearing the main burden of budgetary constraints - and they have - generally there is pride in this institution among staff at all levels and their unions. I want to thank them for their efforts. I should thank in particular the Secretary to the National Assembly, the Table and all those who contribute directly to the smooth running of the Assembly and the comfort of members.
Finally, to the Secretary and Deputy Secretary and all staff for their efforts at improving the support services, our appreciation and good wishes for their efforts. My appreciation and thanks go to the Deputy Speaker, and I thank her particularly for her effort throughout the year. I wish to advise members that she has not had one day’s leave this year so far.
In this coming year we need to address the issues I have raised and many others that I have not. They need to be integrated into a programme for the end of this second Parliament and the beginning of the next. I would advise members that elections are within the next two years. This will impose additional burdens on members and staff at a time when we will not have adequate resources. I believe, however, it is the only way we would be able to empower this institution - if we make adequate provisions now. That way we will also empower members to fulfil their role in consolidating and entrenching democracy in South Africa. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, when our people elected us into public office, they bestowed upon us a specific responsibility. That responsibility is to create, through this public institution, a peaceful and prosperous South African nation.
It is for this reason that the ANC identified Parliament as a site of struggle. This institution has positioned itself on the one hand as a home for the poor, ie people who die from curable diseases, and on the other hand as an institution that represents those who die from having enough to eat. We dedicate this speech to the 1976 generation of youth who took the frontline in the struggle against apartheid and contributed to bringing an end to white minority rule. It is also a dedication to thousands of youth volunteers who have recently taken it upon themselves to work with Government in building a better life for our people, to ensure that this century becomes an African century.
Lastly, this speech is a dedication to the late hon Peter Mokaba, who understood the essence of humanity. For this reason he, throughout his life, remained steadfast and committed to building a nonracial, nonsexist South Africa.
We are now in the eighth year of assuming the leadership of this institution. This Budget Vote gives us an opportunity to interrogate as to whether we are meeting our mandate. In this year of the volunteer for reconstruction and development, we are charged with the responsibility of ensuring a tight link between Parliament and our people. This emphasises ongoing sensitisation and consciousness on our part as legislators, in passing pieces of legislation that have a positive impact in changing the lives of South Africans.
The manner in which we commit resources for the overall functioning of this institution must be reflective of our political objectives. In this regard we must recognise and acknowledge the role that committees have to play in exercising an oversight function of Parliament over the executive. Members of Parliament have a political mandate to execute, therefore resourcing appropriately is necessary. Members of Parliament must be resourced from secretarial and research support to members’ facilities. [Interjections.]
Concerns have been expressed with regard to slow progress in implementing developing legislation on Parliament’s role in the budget. However, the operations of the envisaged budget committee as per the dictates of the Constitution will collapse unless resourcing and empowerment of committees is addressed. Resourcing committees and members would give an adequate expression to this institution of being a people’s Parliament.
On the other hand, resourcing committees and members of Parliament adequately will have to be met by the necessary level of commitment from individual members and committees to do our work with dedication, commitment and a sense of duty. In this context, we have to strengthen the committees’ oversight function. We must ensure that scheduled meetings do take place. We must also improve the level of debating in committees, as well as in this House.
I would also just like to comment on the question of public participation. We do need to interact with this very same question quite seriously. Public participation cannot be for those who have money to come to public hearings. It is an issue that we need to address. [Applause.] Otherwise, it will be the same as perpetuating the saying: ``He who pays the piper, calls the tune’’ or something like that. [Interjections.]
This brings us to another issue with regard to discipline. If we are serious enough about our work and understand our political obligations, we will know that we cannot afford to be ill-disciplined in executing our work. This is one area that, as parties and individuals, members do not have to tolerate at all. This should include the conduct of members during debates and general behaviour in the House.
We are happy that Madam Speaker and the Joint Rules Committee moved that a resolution be taken on imposing fines on those who think that this Parliament deserves to be treated with disdain and contempt. The ANC is also considering a similar measure for its members in Parliament and, as a matter of fact, the ANC caucus took an effective decision in this regard. The ANC will make further public announcements regarding this matter. We want to make an appeal to all members to treat this House with the respect it deserves. We must never lose sight of our political obligations.
We take pride in the role that Parliament is beginning to play in the Southern African region. It was encouraging in the forum of African leaders in Ghana, two months ago, to see that the South African Parliament and Government take the principle of accountability seriously. This was displayed by the fact that the South African Parliament appeared to be ahead on issues such as the African Union and Nepad, whilst other parliaments on the continent appeared to have heard about these particularly important development initiatives through the media and so forth. We will be holding a meeting of African parliaments on 28 and 29 June 2002 in preparation of the launch of the African Union in July 2002.
This Parliament carries this responsibility guided by the need to develop a culture of human rights, promoting development and a cultural solidarity between governments and peoples of the world. The critical precondition for the success of Nepad is the need to mobilise the masses of the people on the continent to rally behind the vision of Nepad. Parliament plays an important role in this regard.
Our predecessors in this theatre performed dutifully, from the Luthulis to the Mandelas and the De Klerks. The South Africa we have today is the product and a reflection of our people’s yearning for a peaceful and prosperous nation. Our people continue to redefine themselves as human beings, the emphasis being the need to reconcile our people across the colour line and the need to eliminate poverty and underdevelopment. It is only in this context that the current reconfiguration of political parties has to be understood. Our desire, and commitment to our people, to foster national unity has to be matched by how we conduct ourselves as political parties and individuals in this House.
Our history presents us with a huge challenge. All of us have a collective duty in this Parliament to fight poverty, to fight social prejudices and stereotypes among our people. We have to fight economic underdevelopment and backwardness. We must defeat the scourge of diseases. The noble wish of the people is to have a South Africa that proudly takes its rightful place in the family of nations. Therefore, our day to day conduct and commitment has to reflex this sense of political obligation. Let us work in the manner that will give our future generation a sense of pride and joy. [Applause.]
Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, the debate on this Vote has traditionally been an uncontroversial affair. The Whips say nice things about each other and about the presiding officers and everybody feels a little better. This year I intend being a little controversial.
Since 1999 the ANC seems to have watered down its commitment to Parliament and to carrying out its constitutional role of holding the executive to account. In many subtle ways, Parliament has faded a little as the ultimate repository of power and the voice of the people. There seems to have been a movement towards a greater concentration of power in the hands of the executive, with a loss of power and authority by Parliament.
Many able parliamentarians have left the National Assembly and the turnover is quite startling. In the previous era it was estimated that an average member of parliament served for about seven and a half years. The average an MP now seems to serve is four or five years before moving on. There is an inevitable loss of experience, expertise and institutional memory.
Some of the brightest and the best in the ANC came to the National Assembly in 1994. One can see that not everybody grew up wanting to be a politician. Many feel happier in business or elsewhere, and those who moved to the private sector have often become quite rich, in some cases exceedingly rich, in a very short space of time.
Many of the replacements seem a little out of their depth, and the overall quality of members has not risen in the past few years. Some of those who have a reputation for independence of mind seem to be crushed by the pressures to conform. They either conform or else they leave.
Joining a long line of able people who turned away from Parliament is Pregs Govender. She is an independent spirit and an energetic and dedicated worker, and … [Interjections] … I think it is very sad that Parliament has lost the services of a member of this calibre. One might not agree, but is it coincidental that she came out in open opposition to the ANC’s Aids policy? She will be remembered for the role she played in helping to persuade the President to see sense.
Another indication of the marginalisation is the attitude of the President himself to the National Assembly. He was elected by Parliament, not by the people, but he feels no need to make regular appearances here. President’s question time has become a rare occasion, and this year we are going to be lucky to have him answer questions on three occasions. This is quite clearly inadequate in a parliamentary democracy. And what about question time itself? This has deteriorated alarmingly. For the Official Opposition it has been an exercise in coping with the legacy of Mr Tony Yengeni. It was his aim to ensure that the DP could no longer dominate question time. The Rules were changed and we have an artificial situation that question time, unlike in every other parliamentary democracy in the world, belongs more to the Government and the governing party than it does to anyone else. If the people on the Government benches had independent-minded people who would ask searching questions, one might be able to justify it. But, unfortunately, most of the Government questions are what is known as ``sweetheart questions’’.
The miserable debacle surrounding Scopa added to the marginalisation. I am not going to reiterate my party’s views about the poor handling of the arms deal issue, but I suspect that Scopa has suffered mortally. Whether it will recover its performance function remains to be seen. The Government did a shabby deal with Mr Van Schalkwyk, and appointed a young man from the New NP to be the so-called independent chairperson of Scopa. The jury is out on whether that chairperson, whom I like personally, has it in him to apply the vigour and the rigour which the position demands.
Scopa is operating on one wing only. The Government and the Official Opposition attend its meetings, and one or two other parties. All of the rest seem to stay away. If anything underscores the emasculated and pathetic travesty of what a public accounts committee should be, it is that.
Another illustration of this has been the unseemly show surrounding the Immigration Bill. The ANC played politics with this Bill year after year. The ANC was determined to pass its own Bill, not one which the Minister of Home Affairs could claim credit for. We voted for the Bill, knowing that it was an improvement on the past. But, nevertheless, a travesty and hon members know that as well.
Minister Erwin interceded and tried to have it redrafted. But, despite this, it was pushed through the National Council of Provinces, and an unworkable Bill had gone through both Houses and has to be amended in order to become workable. What sort of image does this convey to the world? The good name and reputation of our Parliament suffered.
There are many of us here, from all parties, who care about Parliament. It is not only my party that cares about Parliament. We do care about Parliament. [Interjections.] We want it strengthened. We want it to be a successful expression of the democratic will of our people because if Parliament is damaged, we hurt our own people. We hurt the people of South Africa if this Place suffers. There is a duty on us to strengthen Parliament and live up to the high promise of our Constitution.
I thank the Whips of all parties with whom I co-operate, and I congratulate the hon Nathi Nhleko on his election as Chief Whip. He is the fifth Chief Whip I have had to contend with. And while the rapidity of change might be entertaining, I want to urge the ANC not to change again too quickly because this is bad for Parliament. Mr Nhleko is a friendly and intelligent man, and I am sure that he and I will co-operate well. And I certainly wish him well. [Interjections.]
My thanks go to all of the Presiding Officers and all of the staff of Parliament, in management and at every level throughout, from the highest to the lowest, and back up again. I thank them for their efforts because without them this place would not function and the people’s business would not be attended to. [Applause.]
Mr M J MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I wish, first of all, to say congratulations to you in your new post. I did not have time to congratulate you and I wish you well in your new post. I think you will do very well.
Let me remind hon members, especially hon Gibson, that if the ANC did not care about Parliament, I do not think that he would have stood at this podium today and argued his case. [Applause.] The ANC has been very able and it takes Parliament very seriously in whatever it does. Parliament would not have been transformed to the extent it has been if the ANC did not care enough to take transformation forward. So the ANC does care and the ANC knows what it is doing. [Applause.]
Secondly, I want to respond again to the hon Gibson. We should be very proud of our President, who comes into this House, takes the podium and answers questions satisfactorily, and he does not just answer questions and then go. Our President does appear before this House. How many Presidents in the whole world take the podium and are accountable to the public? [Applause.]
How many Presidents in the whole world really go out to the public, address imbizos, talk to the people and listen to the problems of the people, and then come back to the House and urge all members of Parliament to do some work in their constituencies? [Applause.] How many such presidents does one get? One does not find them anywhere. Therefore, the ANC does care and is doing a very, very good job. And we are proud of the job we are doing.
I am sorry that I addressed these issues first, but let me come back to the Budget Vote itself.
Parliament is the highest law-making institution in the country. Members of Parliament are the custodians of the aspirations of voters and are defenders of the democratic processes.
The aim of this Budget Vote is to provide support services required by Parliament to fulfil its constitutional function to assist political parties represented in Parliament to secure administrative support, service constituencies and provide members of Parliament with the necessary facilities.
The strategic overview and key policy developments for the medium term put strong emphasis on the development and training of members and staff. To this effect, performance contracts between staff and managers are introduced for the first time in 2002. We need to thank the Presiding Officers for that. We can see that we are taking our training very seriously.
The Office of the Secretary to Parliament will play a stronger role in co- ordinating the activities of Parliament over the medium term. The financial allocation to the Office of the Secretary grows by 5% in the year 2002-03.
Since the inception of the democratic Parliament of South Africa in 1994, parliamentary committees started to play a vital role in parliamentary processes. The committees can be regarded as representing the House. They enjoy, to a large extent, the same powers as the House, for example, freedom of speech.
The most important role of committees, on the other hand, is to develop expertise to gather information and to do the detailed work that must underpin properly informed decisions about public policy. Committees are substructures of the House. They do not take decisions, but the House does. It is, therefore, important that Parliament’s budget should continue to support committees in dealing with their work in Parliament and outside Parliament.
Public participation was mentioned by the hon Chief Whip, and it was also touched on by Madam Speaker, I think, in her speech. We are very much concerned about this. I think all of us, not just committees, should invite people to public hearings. But, as we go out to our constituencies out there, we should make it a point that we visit those small villages and extend Parliament to our people in the constituencies. We should talk to them about how they feel about our Government and give them feedback as to how Parliament works, how the laws are made, the programmes of Parliament that are being implemented on the ground and the rate of delivery of services. Let me quote the President. However, I will get to that later.
Public hearings are regarded as one way of gathering information. They are a vital contact point with the public. This is how committees provide a forum for public participation. The committees of Parliament have a constitutional duty to facilitate public participation in the law-making process. Our committees are open to the public, promoting transparency in this institution.
The oversight function of the committees is one of the most important aspects of the committees. Oversight by committees is a very important tool to ensure that implementation of laws and policies and spending by departments and other organs of state take place. It serves to enhance public confidence in Government and to ensure that Government is close and responsive to the people it governs.
I now want to quote the President in terms of what I have just said:
We are certain that if our elected representatives, in all the spheres of Government, maintain close contact with the people, they will themselves contribute significantly to the achievement of the national objective of accelerating the improvement of the quality of life of people, by properly discharging their oversight function over the executive authorities in all spheres of Government.
Briefly, the President was reminding us that it is not the duty of committees only, in terms of the hearings, but our own duty, as individual members of Parliament, to go down to our constituencies and talk to the people.
Skills development in Parliament has improved tremendously, and I am glad to congratulate both the Presiding Officers and the Secretary to Parliament, for an amount of R496 000, which has been allocated for the training of managers and for training in computer literacy.
I now come to research. The Chief Whip also did mention this. I am not going to spend a lot of time on it. Parliament has improved its tally of researchers from eight in the past to the current fourteen, and eight contracted researchers in the NCOP, who are being funded by the EU.
Let us come back to the budget. The total allocation is R469,3 million for the year 2002-03, R502,3 million for 2003-04 and R538,1 million for 2004-
- Parliament’s Budget Vote is projected to increase by 4% in the current financial year and 4% in the medium term. Surely, hon members will agree with me that this is not enough.
If we want to achieve a proper oversight function and proper public participation, and if we want to deal with legislative processes in a very, very serious manner, the 4% growth over the MTEF is not enough. But, we need to be involved as members of Parliament and assist the Presiding Officers. We as members of Parliament should come out and say: These are the things that we should do. The plan that Madam Speaker was talking about is quite important and quite essential.
In conclusion, training and development is recognised as an important strategic intervention in capacity-building. With the new performance management system in place, training will become key to improving the operations of Parliament. The importance of research has been recognised. The Department of International Development of the British government has provided a three- year assistance programme on research to the Portfolio Committees on Finance, Public Accounts and the Public Service and Administration. Parliament’s own research capacity is being enhanced with the recruitment of two new researchers, bringing the total number to 16.
The oversight function will, generally, evolve into emphasis on more value for money. Substantial training is required in the techniques and methodology.
I wish to thank all the Presiding Officers, the Secretary to Parliament and the Secretary to the National Assembly and all their staff for the wonderful and magnificent job that they have done in the past year and in the current period. [Applause.]
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, the challenges which have been put by the Speaker are noted and we will definitely do something about it.
On behalf of the IFP I take this opportunity to thank all members of Parliament and all parliamentary staff and officials for co-operating so wonderfully during the past years that by now we are proud to have a Parliament that functions in accordance with international parliamentary standards. In particular we want to thank the Speaker and other Presiding Officers for all their efforts to increase the effectiveness of Parliament, its members and its staff.
We, in the IFP, also wish to thank the Whips of all other parties and members of all parties for their co-operation. In particular, we refer to the Chief Whips’ Forum, which is an excellent forum where we debate everything that is important in the life of parliamentarians. This forum has in fact become a solution-seeking body and we wish to place on record that in this forum there is no room for party politics: when we sit there, we do so as members of Parliament and not as members of individual parties. In this way, as Whips, we have succeeded in serving our members’ best interests. The IFP will certainly support the Budget Vote. Our members are appealing that the Speaker, in her budget, prioritises the issuing of tickets.
Due to limited time, I would love to devote time to one of the very important matters, namely the pensions of members of Parliament. This is, of course, not a party-political matter, but is something that affects the lives of members of Parliament. When a person is elected to become a member of Parliament and he or she takes office, there is very little time left to pursue any private career. In the circumstances, if a member has served in Parliament for a period of, say, 10 years, that member, upon leaving Parliament, has very little to go back to. If the member was a professional person, his or her practice by then has ceased to exist. The member by then is also at least 10 years older and finds it difficult to find alternative employment.
If one looks at the current pension system, a member who is over 60 and has served 10 years of his or her life as a parliamentarian would leave Parliament with a monthly pension, before tax, of around R6 800 per month. There is no way a person can exist on that pension and, therefore, the Chief Whips have thought it wise to investigate the whole question of pension properly. Currently, there are some negotiations in this respect and it appears that the Whips of all parties are seeking consensus on new pension schemes for members.
Prospective members of Parliament would certainly be deterred from running for office if they knew that after many years of public life they go back to private life with a very meagre pension. We are, therefore, looking forward to a pension system for members of Parliament which would just be comparable to that in private life and elsewhere in civil society. One has to bear in mind that members of Parliament do not get a 13th cheque and a housing allowance. People think that members of Parliament get a pension and a housing allowance. [Applause.] The negotiation around pensions for members is a sensitive one and it is certainly not a political issue. The IFP supports the proposal that a just and equitable dispensation should be found for retired members of Parliament.
In conclusion, I take this opportunity to wish the Speaker, all the members, staff and all persons who are involved in Parliament a very prosperous New Year. [Applause.]
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Mr Chairperson and hon members, the Budget Vote of Parliament is another opportunity for members to scrutinise and subject to discussion the resources allocated to this august institution to enable it to fulfil its mandate and the responsibilities that emanate from the Constitution. The highlight of this mandate include, inter alia, acting on the powerful imperative of rapid social and economic transformation; the promotion of constitutionalism; human rights and democracy; and the development of policy, as well as the implementation thereof, so that they become central to the building of representative democracy and participation in the process of crafting effective and appropriate resources to end poverty through the national Budget.
Participation in this budget debate should not be premised on the perception that allocations are adequate to deal with the enormous tasks of this institution. However, an acknowledgement needs to be made that, despite the limitations on the resources allocated, progress is being made in relation to the responsibilities placed upon its members. Therefore, the appropriateness of this debate is not only linked to debating the adequacy of the figures allocated to it, but going beyond to ensure that our processes of engagement as members give value to the mandates and responsibilities we are seeking to carry out.
Indeed, we cannot shun away from the fact that Parliament is underresourced and, therefore, as has been the debate among members over the years, serious action needs to be taken towards ensuring that the value of the challenges and responsibilities placed upon members is reflected in the manner in which member support is resourced and structured. The imperatives of the allocation of resources to Parliament should indeed take cognisance of the priorities and obligations of the state, which include service delivery, accessibility for all citizens, processing of legislation that speeds up transformation, oversight and accountability.
Therefore, it is imperative for Parliament to breathe life into its budget and develop the infrastructure that will make it an effective and efficient institution. It needs to ensure that the responsibility of releasing resources is to its benefit, by placing its focus on continuously capacitating and enhancing the ability and potential of members, if it is to achieve representativity, through the participation of the electorate, as a package for political activity of members. It needs to have inclusiveness and responsiveness with ever increasing access to its precincts and constituency offices.
If we, as members, take it upon ourselves to deal with the problems of underresourcing - which make our institution volatile - in response to our needs, and openly deal with the issue of inadequate staff, for example, lack of reasonable administrative and secretarial support for meeting our information needs; the skills of available staff and structure of the administration; and the use of designated funds to balance political processes with decisions taken either as management and politicians, the gap between the real needs and the real resources available can be balanced.
The budget before us shows a steady increase in the next years, which may not be adequate to deal with the challenges in total. However, it emphasises the point the ANC is making that the multiplicity of the needs of Parliament and its members need to be fine-tuned with the resources at our disposal. It needs to ensure that infrastructure development of Parliament continues at a speed which does not compromise the need to be accessible to all constituencies, particularly those with specific needs, such as disabled people, the elderly and the illiterate, enhancing their ability to participate in the promotion of representative democracy. Services and members’ facilities should add value to their work, so that they can fulfil their role and responsibility effectively.
This can be done, amongst other things, by ensuring that there is greater access to training programmes to enhance the capacity of committee clerks to ensure their efficiency in running the committees. Researchers must be available to members and the library accessible to all members for information. Secretarial assistance, administration and systems that ensure the co-ordination of resources, proper distribution of materials and information technology support must be equal to the demand of members. All of these depend upon the commitment we make and the action which follows in response to this budget. I cannot argue the need for us, as members of this House, to carry the pride of this institution, and raise it to the heights at which it needs to be.
Finally, I am ending my speech by quoting from an address which was made in this House by the former President, Nelson Mandela, when he suggested to the Assembly and I quote:
Because the people of South Africa finally chose a profoundly legal path to their revolution, those who frame and enact the Constitution and law are in the vanguard of the fight for changes. It is in the legislatures that the instruments have been fashioned to create a better life for all. It is here in this House that the oversight of Government has been exercised. It is here that our society, with all its formations, has had an opportunity to influence policy and its implementation.
[Applause.]
Mr C H F GREYLING: Mr Chairperson, unlike my colleague to my left, I will try not to be controversial. [Interjections.]
As we know, the aim of this Vote is to provide support services required by Parliament to fulfil its constitutional functions, assist political parties represented in Parliament to secure administrative support and service constituencies, as well as to provide members of Parliament with the necessary facilities they need to perform their core functions effectively and efficiently.
As gevolg van vermelde oogmerke en doelwitte is die bespreking van hierdie begrotingspos om verskeie redes belangrik. Eerstens, dat die funksionering van die Parlement tot ‘n groot mate die uitstalvenster van ons jong demokrasie is. Ons optrede as verteenwoordigers van al die mense van Suid- Afrika behoort dus te alle tye van so ‘n aard te wees dat waardigheid daardeur gekenmerk word - ongeag ons partypolitieke verskille. Ek is bevrees dit is ongelukkig nie die prentjie wat die publiek altyd van ons optrede aanskou nie. Ons doelwit moet egter steeds wees om by almal te probeer inskerp dat hulle wel ernstige en verantwoordelike verteenwoordigers in die Parlement het. Die belastingbetalers van Suid- Afrika moet oortuig wees dat hulle swaarverdiende belastinggeld op ‘n kundige en deursigtige wyse bestee word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[As a result of the mentioned goals and objectives, the discussion of this Vote is important for several reasons. Firstly, the functioning of Parliament, to a large extent, is considered the display window of our young democracy. Our actions as representatives of all the people of South Africa, therefore, should at all times be of such a nature that they are characterised by dignity - irrespective of our party-political differences. I fear that this is unfortunately not always the impression of our actions that the public witnesses. Our objective should nevertheless still be to try to impress upon everyone that they do have serious and responsible representatives in Parliament. The taxpayers of South Africa must be convinced that their hard-earned tax money is being spent in a capable and transparent manner.]
In this regard, the New NP will play a positive role. However, it would also be relevant to draw attention to some of the shortcomings of Parliament. I would like to mention only a few: committee meetings which do not start at the prescribed time; and late notices of meetings, or meetings that are cancelled without proper notices to inform members. In this regard, we trust that the new Chairperson of Committees, the hon Geoff Doidge, will manage the committee system and meetings with a firm hand so that these kinds of frustrations will not occur in future.
Other shortcomings, in my view, are management problems and should not be discussed at the Chief Whips’ forum. Those are, for instance, the departure and the arrival time of buses, untidiness of the parliamentary terrain and offices, ongoing problems with Hansard and access for members to the Marks and Good Hope buildings. In this regard, I would like to thank the Secretary to Parliament who, this morning, assured us that this problem will be dealt with effectively from now on.
Sover dit die begroting self aangaan, word dit waardeer dat die bedrag vir lede se fasiliteite en politieke partye se ondersteuningstoelaes verhoog is. Spesifiek ten opsigte van kiesafdelingstoelaes, glo ons dat die bedrag per verteenwoordiger werklik drasties verhoog behoort te word, met natuurlik die gepaardgaande ouditkontrole. Die voortslepende probleem met die opstel van die parlementêre begroting, asook die nou reeds berugte omsendskrywe L19, behoort so spoedig moontlik opgelos te word. Dit is nie aanvaarbaar dat net sekere gedeeltes van L19 toegepas word nie - soos dat Wes-Kaapse lede van die Parlement wat in Kaapstad gestasioneer is, se vliegtuigkaartjies verminder word, terwyl die verhoging van telefoontoelaes nie tot uitvoer gebring word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[As far as the budget itself is concerned, it is appreciated that the amount for members’ facilities and political parties’ support allowances have been increased. Specifically with regard to constituency allowances, we believe that the amount per representative really should be increased drastically - of course, with the concomitant audit controls. The lingering problem of the drafting of the parliamentary budget, as well as the now already notorious circular L19, should be resolved as soon as possible. It is not acceptable that only certain parts of L19 are being applied - such as that Western Cape members of Parliament who are stationed in Cape Town are have had the number of their airtickets reduced, while the increase in telephone allowances has not been implemented.]
Finally, I want to thank Madam Speaker for the way in which she leads the House. We also want to thank the Deputy Speaker for the role that she plays and the new Chairperson of Committees who has, in the short time, already shown the ability to be effective. It is also suitable to thank the former Chairperson of Committees, Mr Mahlangu, for the work that he has done.
I would also like to thank the Deputy Chairperson of Committees for his role. Also, we would like to express our appreciation to the new Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party for the way they have handled the Chief Whips’ Forum and related meetings. A word of thanks goes to all the Chief Whips of the other parties for the way in which we co-operate in the Chief Whips’ Forum.
Aan die Sekretaris van die Parlement, die Sekretaris van die Nasionale Vergadering, die Tafelpersoneel en alle ander personeel van die Parlement wat die wiele aan die rol hou, wil ek ons waardering uitspreek dat hulle die funksionering van die Parlement moontlik maak.
Die Nuwe NP steun hierdie begrotingspos. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[To the Secretary to Parliament, the Secretary of the NA, the Table staff and all other staff members of Parliament who keep the wheels turning, I would like to express our appreciation for the fact that they make the functioning of Parliament possible.
The New NP supports this Vote. [Applause.]]
Ms L M T XINGWANA: Chairperson, I would like to congratulate this Parliament and the Presiding Officers for the major strides that we have achieved, as women in this House, since 1994. First of all, we won a preschool after a long battle in Parliament so that our children could have a safe place whilst we are working here. Although it is now closed, I hope that we will not have a huge battle when we need it again.
We have school holidays that coincide with parliamentary recesses. We have a working day that is shorter than when we came here, in 1994, to ensure that members of Parliament have adequate family time. We also have a presence of women here which is the envy of most parliaments, including those of the western countries and the whole of Africa. That has ensured that we have passed legislation, in this Parliament, which has impacted on the lives of ordinary women out there.
I would also like to mention certain pieces of legislation that we have passed in this House in order to empower women. For instance, we have passed the Domestic Violence Act, the Maintenance Act and the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act, to mention but a few. We have also ensured that most of the legislation passed in the House is sensitised to and caters for the needs of our women.
Through these pieces of legislation we have ensured that the issues and concerns of women out there are taken up at the national level. We have ensured that each and every department budgets for the concerns of women and ensures that they address gender issues. We have put in place a national machinery which monitors and ensures that these gender issues are catered for, and also ensures that there is a budget that looks after these concerns.
There are also outstanding issues. We have outstanding legislation from the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. I wish the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development was here so that he could tell us where is it that the customary law of succession is stuck. We have been waiting for this law to be tabled for a number of years now. We are going to make sure that, very soon, that law is tabled in Parliament. We are also waiting for the sexual offences Act. We know that rape, abuse and violence against women are escalating all over the country. We hope that this Act will be passed soon, in Parliament, in order to tighten the rape laws in this country.
We have a number of roles and responsibilities. First of all, we have the responsibility of oversight, as members of Parliament, which has been mentioned. We also have constituencies. Our constituencies go beyond party constituencies. Every woman in South Africa looks to women parliamentarians to be their voice in this House, and to raise their concerns and issues. We have tried, through the women’s caucus, to visit some of the women who have faced violence and atrocities, and whose children have been raped in this country. We have tried to educate women in our constituencies about the laws that affect them which have been passed by this Parliament. However, we are unable to do all that we want to do.
There are issues that we need to take to women, for instance, the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development. The women of this country do not know about it. Regarding the Beijing Platform for Action, the women of this country have to know what the Government is doing. The women of this country have to be involved so that five years down the line, when we go to New York, they will know exactly what had happened. We have a report and we know that we have been involved in terms of the programme of Government in that report. We also have the UN Cedaw, of which the majority of women, especially women in the rural areas, are not aware. They are are not aware that our Government is a signatory to that convention.
We therefore need a number of workshops which should start with women in the rural areas. Do women at local government levels, our councillors, know about these instruments to empower women? Do women in the provincial legislatures know about these instruments for empowering women? We know that our Speakers have set up the women’s empowerment unit, which has been running a number of training programmes for women in the legislatures. We thank them for that project which has empowered our women at that level. However, we feel that that is not enough. For us to be able to reach out to all the women of South Africa, we need more resources and more workshops.
We also want to raise the question of research and resources. Speakers have already mentioned the needs here. We meet with big business, different structures and sectors, and professionals when we deal with Bills in Parliament. Unfortunately, our researchers are limited. In terms of expertise, they are not any match for the people who come to this Parliament to challenge the Bills that we want in order transform the country. Therefore, we need researchers that are well-skilled and who know what they are about. [Applause.]
I would also like to look at the needs of women, in particular. We are mothers. At the same time, we are leaders in our communities. We are public representatives. We have children. We do not really know what to do with our children. We do not know whether we should keep them here in Acacia Park because for two weeks one has to go away to one’s constituency, which is at home. During most weekends one is away at one’s constituency at home. Maybe one could leave one’s children at home with a relative. But, they can be abused. They need the mother and their father. They need parental love and guidance. We do not have the time for our children. Therefore, I want to say to Madam Speaker that I support the hon Mbuyazi. Our air tickets are not enough. [Applause.]
There are no privileges for the children of parliamentarians. Our children face a lot of stress. The media, when they cannot get at me, will go for my child. Some of our children come out in the media and state that they are HIV-positive. Some of our children are exposed to drugs. They are targeted because we give them a lot of money in order to compensate for the neglect since we are not there as parents. We give them money, trusting that they will not be hungry when were are not there. They take that money and buy drugs and alcohol. Our children, of course, are targeted so that, tomorrow, people will say: It is the children of the Minister; it is the children of the members of Parliament that are doing these things and are involved in crime. The point of the matter is that we are not there. We cannot take our children away. They stay in Acacia Park and have parties. Sometimes things that are irresponsible happen. If that happens, tomorrow, in the newspapers it will be: It is the children of members of Parliament. [Applause.]
We have public hearings here in Parliament. That is good. The ANC Government said, in 1994, that we should take this Parliament to the people. It also said that we should take this Parliament and bring it closer to our people. What happens here is that big business comes with their big lawyers from overseas. De Beers, the Chamber of Mines and even companies from overseas come here and bring their lawyers to stop us from passing the Bills that will transform the economy of this country.
We have nothing. Our mothers cannot come here, whose husbands have died in the mines and whose children have died in the mines. They get R200 per month from De Beers and the Chamber of Mines to bring up five children. [Applause.] They are the ones that cannot come here. We go and apply in the committee section. The big bureaucracy there frustrates us. Therefore, at the end of the day, our people cannot cannot come here. I think that something must be done about that. [Applause.]
I want to talk about training in gender. Yes, we have a lot of training when we open Parliament and so on but we want gender to be mainstreamed in that training. Every member of Parliament must participate in gender training. Every member of Parliament must know what our understanding of gender is. We must have a common understanding of gender so that we could be able to move forward together and with a common understanding. [Applause.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and hon members, Parliament looks forward to reports on performances of government departments and other state functionaries. In the same way, it is necessary that Parliament reflects on itself, like we are doing this evening. We should consider ourselves privileged to have the calibre of Presiding Officers that we have. The Speaker, Deputy Speaker and other Presiding Officers preside with dignity and impartiality. The Speaker serves as a real barometer. She knows when the pressure is high and when it is low and is always quick to come forth with interventions when the need arises, as she did yesterday afternoon. We owe it to the hon Doidge, the Chairman of Committees, for diligently leading the task team that is refining the new Rules, drafted to improve on the use and control of constituency allowances. We hope that, once adopted, parties will have no headaches about what to do with public funds.
Whilst some parties, particularly the IFP, emphasise their representation in the House in resolving issues, the Speaker is always at pains to say even the least of parties has to be heard. It is hoped that all outstanding issues, such as the formula for international travel for smaller parties, will be addressed in the spirit of inclusivity.
We maintain that in the spirit of nation-building, parties should not be like Shylock and insist on their pound of flesh. Our appreciation goes out to Parliament for having made it possible for parties to have research funds from the EU. We just wonder where the next help will come from, as the well is about to run dry. We continue to derive pleasure and maximum benefit from the research unit of Parliament.
Parliament had it tough last year. Some members ended up as casualties of problems surrounding the not-yet-concluded question of the arms deal. This is a challenge to all parliamentarians to conduct themselves honourably. We hope that, at the right time, the portfolio committee will report on issues as recommended by the joint inspection team.
It remains difficult to find lasting solutions to problems faced by opposition parties in the Marks Building.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired. Mr I S MFUNDISI: The UCDP supports the Budget Vote.
Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, I am not going to address the ruling party. I also want to address the opposition parties. It is a pity that the New NP is not here. I want to speak about the role of opposition.
Mr J J DOWRY: I am here.
Mrs P DE LILLE: You are going to disappear in any case, so I am sorry.
The Constitution places obligations and responsibilities not just on Government, but equally on opposition parties to ensure that our democracy succeeds. We cannot afford to adopt the attitude that it is not our problem if the Government fails, or it has nothing to do with us if the Government messes up. The fact is that it has everything to do with us. We have a duty not to allow the ruling party to mess up things. We have a duty to do everything in our power to make our democracy a success, and to live up to the very high standards we have set for ourselves. For our democracy to succeed, South Africa needs both the Government and the opposition.
We have emerged after apartheid with a new democracy, and have set ourselves very high standards contained in our Constitution. We have vowed never to go back. One of the most important roles of opposition parties is to ensure that we live up to those standards. An important role of opposition parties is to raise issues concerning constitutional violations, and we also need a strong, independent media to act as a watchdog.
While the opposition parties’ task in South Africa is to work hard to change the voting patterns to ensure that people vote on issues rather than on party loyalty, the opposition must also lobby big business and other interested organisations in our country and bring their views to Parliament.
We also need a Government that will consult on national issues. An example is the issue of Nepad. The opposition parties need to be brought on board and we all need to support this initiative. We need a Government that can tolerate opposition and criticism, and stop using the race card as a defence, for example, that when one is white, one is a racist and when one is black one is unpatriotic.
Finally, I want to urge Madam Speaker to increase speaking times and resources for small parties. In applying affirmative action, Madam Speaker has to support smaller parties and make them stronger, and reduce the ANC’s speaking time, because it is mostly praise singing.
We also want to congratulate Comrade Nathi Nhleko on his appointment. We will give him all our support. We support this Budget Vote.
Mr J F VAN WYK: Chairperson, the key objectives of the Budget Vote are to provide support services and facilities to Parliament and its members to perform their core functions effectively and efficiently. In trying to understand to what extent Parliament’s services are meeting these objectives, it is important to note that Parliament is an institution that is going through a process of transformation.
Since the first democratic elections in 1994, the ANC-led Government has been faced with the challenge of transforming Parliament from an unrepresentative, and largely executive-dominated institution, into a centre of dialogue between the people of South Africa and their elected public representatives. Parliament is a product of the Constitution, a Constitution that makes provision for the promotion of the different cultures and languages of the people of this country, and a Constitution with a Bill of Rights that spells out basic human rights on issues such as equality and discrimination, something that has important implications for an institution such as Parliament.
Transformation also means that Parliament must develop into a modern institution with facilities that meet the challenges of the era of information technology. Support services and facilities must also reflect the dignity and status of Parliament as the highest law-making body in the country. Opening the doors of Parliament means an increase in public participation. Parliament must therefore improve its capacity to accommodate the large numbers of people. This does put a large burden on services such as access control, security, household services, infrastructural facilities like office space, committee rooms and parking, to name but a few. It means that Parliament must develop and introduce language policies and practices that meet constitutional requirements.
Although the interpretation services helps, the poor quality of this service does not help members to participate properly. A very important part of the tools of any politician must be the ability to listen. One does not always have to speak to participate, but one must listen as well. But with this quality of service, one cannot do this. Parliament must also provide for those who were historically marginalised, such as black people, women and the disabled.
The colonial and apartheid parliaments were male-dominated. To this day, there are still no proper toilet facilities for women in Parliament. What progress has been made in addressing these challenges? The parliamentary services have taken a range of steps to improve general service delivery to Parliament and its members. The organisational structure of Parliament’s service has been revised to improve strategic planning, administration and financial management. Other steps include improved training for staff and members, the introduction of a performance management system for staff and the conclusion of performance contracts between managers and staff.
There has been an increase in the expenditure on the network infrastructure and computer equipment for members. A computerised document management system is being installed to improve the flow of work and the management of correspondence. A curator and an assistant curator have been appointed, which should contribute to the proper recording and storage of our art works. We hope that these appointments will also contribute to the display of art works that are more representative of the diverse cultures of our country against the walls of Parliament.
Specific attention has been given to ensuring the safety and health of members, staff of and visitors to Parliament. This includes the installation of a new security system, the establishment of a safety, health and environment function and the opening of the new visitors’ centre.
Although these new developments are welcome, there are still some areas of concern. Recently, Parliament experienced problems with accommodation for meetings and on several occasions was forced to rent outside accommodation. Parliament has more than 50 committees. Ad hoc committees that emerge from time to time place a further burden on the requirement for facilities. Parliament has 25 committee rooms on its premises, of which only 18 are readily available for bookings in the committee section. Seven of these venues are in 120 Plein Street and are under the control of the Department of Public Works. If one looks at the capacity of these offices, only two venues can accommodate more than 150 people; four can seat a maximum of 65 people; two have capacity for 50 people; and others accommodate less than 30 people. To make the picture worse, the facilities available in most of these venues are inadequate and outdated. In one report they were referred to as ``pre-war’’. I think the report was referring to the Second World War. This situation needs to be rectified.
Negative media reports, continued complaints from members and a recent report tabled at the Joint Rules Committee clearly indicate that the cleanliness and maintenance of buildings in Parliament is not what it should be. The Institutional Support Division of Parliament is responsible for cleaning and other household services. The recent appointment of additional staff to strengthen supervision and other measures has not gone unnoticed, but there is still room for improvement.
The Public Works department is responsible for the maintenance of certain facilities and part of the cleaning of the parliamentary premises. The problem is that since 1994 Parliament has never had a sustainable maintenance programme. The PWD therefore relies on requests from Parliament, instead of having a sustainable maintenance programme. The recent recommendations adopted in the Joint Rules Committee in this regard is a step in the right direction.
Programme 2 of the Budget Vote provides for members’ facilities, such as telephones, travel and other logistical facilities for members of Parliament. The Joint Subcommittee on Members’ Support now makes recommendations to the Joint Rules Committee and the Presiding Officers on these issues. They also advise on members’ training needs. The new process resulted in a fundamental revision of the facilities of members. Members’ facilities will consume 27,1% of the total budget expenditure in 2002-03. Expenditure will have increased by 11,2% over the five-year period from 1998-99 to 2002-03, with a major increase of 30,9% between 2002-03, largely because of the increase in the cost of air travel.
We are thankful for these increases, but if the aim is to provide resources that are meant to enable members to function optimally, this is far from satisfactory. We want to plead with the management of Parliament to get their act in order if resources are meant to make members more effective in their work.
This is not about getting more gravy on the gravy train. The idea of the gravy train is actually a myth that some people have planted in the minds of our people. What is true is that 42% of members’ income is taxed. Members also contribute to rather than only benefit from taxpayers’ money.
There has been a significant increase in expenditure on computer equipment for members, which is welcomed. The truth is that members pay for these computers: the money is deducted through monthly instalments from their salaries. Members also buy their own paper and ink.
I want to make it clear that my plea for more resources to support members is not about getting more money into the pockets of members of Parliament. It is not about comfort or a gravy train. Most bars in Parliament have closed down, because they are underutilised. This is a clear indication that we do not have the time to relax in bars. Maybe the many bars that were here were the reason why the apartheid government made so many stupid laws. We want to do our job effectively and efficiently, as stated in the Budget Vote. Members’ support facilities need more resources in order to serve the people of South Africa properly and realise the vision of a people’s Parliament.
I want to thank the the Presiding Officers, the Secretary to Parliament, his management team and staff for their efforts. These have not gone unnoticed. I agree with Madam Speaker that we have made a smooth transition into a democratic Parliament, and the role of management and staff can never be underestimated.
The ANC suports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil die Speaker bedank vir dit wat sy oor spreektyd gesê het. Ek sê dit reeds vir een en half jaar lank, maar noudat sy dit gesê het, sal daar moontlik iets gebeur.
Ons het vir 10 minute vanaand na ‘n blinde lid geluister. As ons die tyd van ‘n siende lid tot een minuut beperk, is ons, sy gehoor, blind, dan verstaan ons nie wat sy standpunt is nie en dan baat hierdie Parlement nie by sy lidmaatskap nie.
Hierdie begrotingspos moet voorsiening maak vir die uitbou en die instandhou van veelpartydemokrasie in Suid-Afrika. My party, die FA, met sy twee lede, word deur die ANC 15 minute toegeken om aan hierdie drie maandelange begrotingsdebat deel te neem. Elke FA-lid kry net sewe en half minute om ons menings oor 32 poste te kan lug. Daarteenoor gee die ANC vir die AEB se een lid 46 minute en die MF se lid 58 minute om aan hierdie debatte deel te neem.
Die FA is nie die enigste party teen wie hier gediskrimineer word nie. Selfs die amptelike opposisie, naamlik die DP, kry slegs agt minute per lid; teenoor die PAC en die UCDP se 15 minute per lid. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Nêrens in Afrika, die Statebond of die Verenigde Nasies - waarvan Suid- Afrika lid is - bestaan ‘n demokratiese parlement waar kritiese opposisie op hierdie manier die swye opgelê word en waar mbongi opposisie op hierdie manier beloon word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the Speaker for what she said about speaking time. I have been saying this for the past one and a half years, but now that she has said it perhaps something will happen.
Tonight we listened to a blind member for ten minutes. If we limit a sighted member to one minute then we, his audience, are blind, then we do not understand what his viewpoint is and then this Parliament does not benefit by his membership.
This Budget Vote must make provision for the extension and maintenance of multi-party democracy in South Africa. My party, the FA, with its two members, is allocated 15 minutes by the ANC to participate in this three month long budget debate.
Every FA member only receives seven and a half minutes to offer our views about the 32 posts. On the other hand, the ANC gives the one member from the AEB 46 minutes and the MF member receives 58 minutes to participate in this debate.
The FA is not the only party who is being discriminated against here. Even the official opposition, namely the DP, only receives eight minutes per member; over and against that, the PAC and the UCDP receive 15 minutes per member. [Interjections.]
Nowhere in Africa, the Commonwealth or the United Nations - of which South Africa is a member - does a democratic parliament exist where a critical opposition is silenced in this manner and where mbongi-opposition is rewarded in this manner.] Speaking of a transparent and democratic Parliament, what are we as politicians trying to achieve with the motions we read out so enthusiastically every day? Why do we mislead the public by making them believe that on the next sitting day we will debate these motions? For about 30 hours per year we propose these one-minute motions, knowing full well that we will not debate them. The governing party established this parliamentary TV talk show in which parties try to score political points against their opponents in 60 seconds.
For as long as we restrict some members to one-minute speeches, we cannot do justice to democracy. Why do we not debate serious issues which affect the nation, and for what reason are the ruling parties not willing to debate their policies in this Chamber? We will destroy Parliament’s status if we do not turn to the rules that exist in democratic parliaments elsewhere in the world. In this House every member represents an equal number of votes and should have equal status and equal speaking time, like everywhere else in the world. We must take stock of where we are going with this budget - to a Westminster or a Moscovite parliamentary system. If I had more time I would elaborate on many other evils of Parliament, but I will conclude by saying that the FA has reservations about this budget if the Rules are not changed to make Parliament more democratic. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, we welcome the Speaker’s comments on the speaking times for smaller parties. I hope the Chair has heard her and given me a few minutes more!
We base our system of governance on constitutional supremacy, whereby the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa of 1996 governs as supreme. Within this Constitution is vested the establishment and recognition of the national sphere of Government and Parliament, which is based, under section 43(a), in Cape Town and comprise of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, as set out under section 44(a) and (b). It is further stated that parliamentary activities must follow procedure attentively and maintain openness and transparency towards the public at all times.
The MF is glad to note the adherence to these constitutional provisions. We need to realise that our sincere dedication and commitment to our appointed seats are more than important. The nation is depending on us. Our participation and attendance of all parliamentary activities are vitally important.
The MF is glad to note the transparency and accessibility of Parliament to the public. We also note the new security system and we are assured that although security has been tightened the public now has access to Parliament as right and not a privilege.
The funding to uphold Parliament’s offices is adequate. However, with the scare of unhygienic circumstances a few months ago, it is hoped that precautions are being taken to secure a healthy, clean environment in which parliamentary activities can be carried out. As a smaller party, the MF hopes that calculations to fund the support service would be stepped up, noting the need to ensure effective and efficient delivery by political parties in Parliament. Minimum funds minimise the parties’ ability to perform to the best of their ability. It is hoped that the budget allocated to Parliament will service smaller parties a lot more by inculcating a criterium of equity in terms of proportional party representation.
Before I conclude, I would like to comment that it is evident that members of Parliament make sacrifices by being away from their families and keeping two home fires burning. They have to sit and count vouchers to see how many are left for one to go home. They get 60 singles, which amount to 30 returns and, of course, these include vouchers for one’s spouse, children, mother-in-law, father-in-law, etc. The 20% vouchers are for members only.
As for the gravy train, the train may be here but the gravy has dried a long time ago! [Applause.]
I would like at this point to thank the Presiding Officers and staff of Parliament for the close co-operation and working relationship we have had during the past year.
The MF supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Mr Chairperson, Madam Speaker, it is fitting that as we debate the budget of Parliament we pay tribute to our late colleague and comrade, Peter Mokaba, whose contribution in processing the Powers and Immunities Bill will serve as a legacy that will define how Parliament functions.
We must also acknowledge the role played by the former Chief Whip, the hon Mapisa-Nqakula, our newly appointed Chief Whip, the hon Nhleko and my successor as Deputy Chief Whip, the hon Nel, who have steered this House through this hectic session with clear direction, decisive leadership and efficiency.
Every year at this time … [Interjections.] Mr M J ELLIS: [Inaudible.]
Mr G Q M DOIDGE: I will get to you, Mr Ellis!
Every year at this time, we assess how far we have come and whether we as Parliament are rising to the challenges before us. Few would disagree with the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces when she says, and I quote:
Our achievements in transforming the legislative landscape in the past seven years are profound and must be celebrated and acknowledged. Sustaining democracy and achieving change in the lives of all citizens requires constant monitoring and review of progress.
We have much to celebrate. But as responsible representatives of the people, it is the process of monitoring and review that must constantly seize our attention. And the ANC supports the Speaker’s view that we should have and should develop a vision and strategy for Parliament. By doing this, we will in fact afford ourselves the opportunity to influence the budget of Parliament more directly.
Our committee process is one of which we are justly proud. The understanding of the role of committees is constantly being deepened and the challenges of having an efficient and effective committee system need no elaboration. We speak much of our role of oversight. And that valuable book which I recommend to all members, Building Representative Democracy by Christina Murray and Lia Nijzink says that in practice oversight means the review of government actions and decisions. It also includes scrutiny of the annual budget.
The size of modern government makes it difficult, if not impossible, for legislatures to scrutinise all government action effectively. For this reason part of the oversight function must be to ensure that there are adequate alternate mechanisms in place, so that problems are recognised and brought to the attention of the legislature in a speedy manner.
The role that Parliament must play in overseeing the actions of Government is one that requires more than simply providing a forum for reporting. As our Speaker herself has said, we are still developing our understanding and trying to give effect to the constitutional relationship between the executive and the legislatures. But what we do know is that in order for Parliament to fulfil its constitutional obligations, it needs resources.
The questions that we must constantly ask are, firstly, whether Parliament is adequately resourced in order for it to fulfil its constitutional role and, secondly, whether we are using and allocating our resources effectively.
Our foremost resource is human resource. The book that I have recommended, although not referring specifically to this legislature, clearly states:
Although it is difficult to say what the ideal balance of staff component is, the component of staff dedicated to political processes is sometimes small and often committee support is weak.
Whilst we have dedicated members of parliamentary staff working long hours with dedication and under difficult conditions, we must recognise that Parliament is all too often merely a stepping stone on career paths. We lose valuable talent, often because we do not develop the skills of our human resource component sufficiently so that those who work here are able to execute their duties with confidence and pride. Those of talent move into the civil service where conditions of service are better and there are clear career paths.
Do we do sufficiently to nurture our talent? Do we give sufficient status to members of our team, in particular those who are engaged in the legislative processes? These are issues that need to be looked at. As we move from a Parliament the primary task of which was to develop a new legislative framework for a democratic constitutional-rights-based dispensation, to a Parliament that is charged with fulfilling its constitutional responsibility of oversight over the actions of Government, we are in a long and laborious process of defining the role of oversight and developing the mechanisms, structures and systems to carry out that often intangible task.
The budget process is one of the primary mechanisms of oversight. But oversight is not simply about procedures: it requires an analysis of complex information; and it also requires verification and investigation of reports and conclusions. The ANC supports the Speaker’s view that we should not be depending only on the information that comes from departments. Whilst we are subjected to a massive number of reports, we are unable to verify and analyse them.
One of our greatest challenges is to ensure that the invaluable work done in committees - the oversight, the reports and the conclusions of committees - do not simply gather dust in the archives of Parliament, but that they are debated in this House and that this House pays greater attention to the wonderful work that is being done in the committees. We need to engage far more actively with the work of committees. Looking at the recommendations arising out of their deliberations, I am pleased to announce that in the meeting of the chairperson committees several committees have requested that they be given time to debate their reports in this House.
As we develop our Parliament and democracy, we must also be ever mindful that we have a parallel obligation to develop our relationship and communication with those whom we serve - that is, the people of South Africa.
The ANC supports this Budget Vote.
Mr Ellis said that last year I was very nasty during this particular Budget Vote debate. I want to remind him of what I said. He is an opposition that shouts loudly from the fringes. One need only observe what happened in this House yesterday with the hon McIntosh and the hon Lee. I want to say to Mr Ellis that I do not want to ruin the very nice day we have had with the success of Bafana Bafana, so I leave the rest to him. [Applause.]
Mr G H M GIBSON: I am left speechless.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The hon Ellis is disappointed, but … [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, my Chief Whip says that he is left speechless and I have to agree with him.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The hon McIntosh has requested an opportunity to make a personal explanation. I now give him that opportunity.
PERSONAL EXPLANATION
Mr G B D McINTOSH: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity. I wish to explain something to the House and withdraw some remarks that I made yesterday. I do so in the spirit of, and in response to the plea of Baba A Mlangeni, as our senior. He appealed with us during the Sports debate yesterday to debate issues seriously and in a dignified way.
I used the words they are racist'' in the context of they’’ referring
to remarks and sentiments listed by the hon Donald Lee, and not to
individuals in the form of the Minister of Sport and Recreation and the
President. In the exchange, I also denied using the words: They are
racist'', but said that I usedit’’, not they'' as referring to the
remarks and sentiments as racist. In fact, the words which I used were:
They are racist.’’ I wish to withdraw them, and I regret that they caused
offence.
Further, I wish to make it clear to the House that my use of the words
bizarre'' andquite wrong’’ could be construed as a reflection on the
Chair. I wish to assure the Chair and the House of my respect for that high
office. [Applause.]
The House adjourned at 19:28. ____ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 11 June 2002 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a section 75
Bill:
(i) State Information Technology Agency Amendment Bill [B 24 -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).