National Assembly - 26 June 2002
WEDNESDAY, 26 JUNE 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 15:00.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms T R MODISE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that today marks the 47th anniversary of the adoption of the Freedom Charter on 26 June 1955 by the Congress of the People held at Kliptown;
(2) believes that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people;
(3) further believes that our country will never be prosperous or free until all our people live in brotherhood and sisterhood, enjoying equal rights and opportunities;
(4) pledges that it will strive together, sparing neither strength nor courage, until the democratic changes set out in the Freedom Charter have been won; and
(5) further pledges: ``These freedoms we shall fight for, side by side, throughout our lives, until we have won our liberty.’’
[Applause.]
Mrs B N SONO: Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DP on the next sitting day:
That the House -
(1) notes the heavy-handed action by the Johannesburg Metro Council and the police in their efforts to forcibly remove the informal settlement of Thembelihle near Lenasia yesterday;
(2) further notes the injury to nine residents from rubber bullets;
(3) regrets the apartheid-style tactics of the ANC-run Johannesburg Council which is removing people at the height of winter;
(4) deprecates the fact that the ANC seems incapable, unwilling or unable to conduct effective negotiations with the residents or to provide them with alternative accommodation; and (5) urges them to redouble their efforts to resolve the residents’ concerns about access to schools and jobs.
Dr O S B BALOYI: Chairperson, I shall move at the next sitting of this House on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes with appreciation -
(a) the initiative taken by the Treatment Action Campaign to hold a
three-day conference involving themselves, Cosatu and
representatives from the relevant section of the national
Department of Health; and
(b) that the implementation of antiretroviral treatment, linking TB
and HIV care and bridging the gap between NGOs and the
Government, are subjects for discussion at this conference; and
(2) wishes this initiative success and trusts that after this conference opportunities will be created for all political parties and all civil society structures to play a meaningful role in facilitating efficient and effective rollout of the treatment with antiretrovirals throughout the length and breadth of South Africa.
Mr M T GONIWE: Chairperson, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Freedom Charter states: The people shall share in
the country's wealth'' andThe national wealth of our country, the
heritage of South Africans, shall be restored to the people’’;
(2) further notes that a broad coalition of black business, trade unions and political parties has come out in support of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill; (3) believes that this Bill will facilitate the inclusion and empowerment of historically disadvantaged communities to play an active role in the mining industry and will improve the quality of life of workers and the community;
(4) further believes that this Bill will facilitate investment in an industry whose monopoly structure deterred such investment in the past; and
(5) congratulates the Minister of Minerals and Energy, the hon Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, for spearheading legislation that will contribute to the fundamental transformation of our economy, moving back the frontiers of poverty and building a better life for all.
[Applause.]
Dr S J GOUS: Mr Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes with shock the death of five young boys and the hospitalisation of another 51 boys as a result of initiation rites in Gauteng;
(2) further notes that the boys died because of exposure to cold weather conditions, severe beatings and unhygienic and unprofessional circumcisions;
(3) also takes note that, although the New NP fully respects the culture of initiation, we are concerned that these practices violate human rights and cause the deaths of many young boys;
(4) calls on -
(a) all provincial and local governments to institute legislation
which compels traditional healers to register with the
Department of Health before they are able to perform
circumcisions; and
(b) the national House of Traditional Leaders to assist the
Government in making these practices safer; and
(5) declares that we certainly cannot afford to lose so many of South Africa’s young boys.
[Applause.]
Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Hon Chairperson, I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of this House:
That the House -
(1) notes that 26 June is annually observed as the UN International Day against Drug Abuse and Illicit Drug Trafficking, and is in line with the UN General Assembly resolution to strengthen action and co- operation to achieve an international society free of drug abuse;
(2) expresses its outrage at the Government’s continued failure to develop an integrated strategy to fight the intertwined problems of drug abuse/trafficking and gangsterism and organised crime;
(3) notes that the Government is failing to protect the vulnerable, especially the poor and the youth, who are exploited by ruthless gangsters as distributors of and a market for illicit drugs; and
(4) once again urges Government to develop a holistic, integrated strategy involving all three spheres of government, to combat the intertwined problems of drug abuse and trafficking as well as gangsterism and organised crime.
Mrs Z A KOTA: Chairperson, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Freedom Charter declares: There shall be houses,
security and comfort'' andAll people shall have the right to live
where they choose, be decently housed, and to bring up their families
in comfort and security’’ and also: ``Fenced locations and ghettoes
shall be abolished’’;
(2) notes with concern that the DA in the Cape Town Metropolitan Council intends erecting a wall separating poor black residents from their affluent white counterparts in Wallacedene;
(3) believes that this reflects the commitment of the DA to protect the privileges of a wealthy minority;
(4) believes that this wall undermines the building of unity amongst our people and will lead to racial polarisation; and
(5) rejects this plan by the DA to divide the community of Wallacedene along racial lines and calls on the DA to halt its racist plan.
[Applause.]
Adv Z L MADASA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) a preparatory meeting for the first launch of the AU is meeting
in Durban;
(b) the AU is driven by an executive with little popular
participation so far; and
(c) one of the organs of the AU is the Pan African Parliament; and
(2) calls upon the preparatory meeting in Durban to put the early launch of the PAP on the agenda of the assembly of the AU in order to expedite popular participation in the affairs of the AU.
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek namens die VF by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) kennis neem daarvan dat die KWV Ukkasie Kunstefees vanaf 19 - 21 Julie te Stevenage naby Londen sal plaasvind;
(2) verder kennis neem dat dit vanjaar die tweede keer sal wees dat hierdie Afrikaanse Kunstefees in Londen aangebied sal word, en dat verskeie bekende Afrikaanse kunstenaars by hierdie fees sal optree;
(3) sy hoop uitspreek dat Suid-Afrikaners wat tans in Londen woon en werksaam is, weer eens hierdie fees in groot getalle sal bywoon om sodoende Afrikaanse kuns en kultuur op sy beste te ervaar en te koester; en
(4) die organiseerders en deelnemers aan die fees alle voorspoed en sterkte toewens, en sy hoop uitspreek dat die Ukkasie Kunstefees van krag tot krag sal gaan. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes that the KWV Ukkasie Arts Festival will be taking place at Stevenage near London from 19 to 21 July;
(2) further notes that this is the second time this arts festival is to be presented in London and that various well-known Afrikaans artists will be appearing at this festival;
(3) expresses the hope that South Africans currently living and working in London will once again attend this festival in large numbers so as to experience and cherish Afrikaans art and culture at its best; and
(4) wishes the organisers and participants well and good luck and expresses the hope that the Ukkasie Arts Festival will go from strength to strength.]
Mr M RAMGOBIN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that today marks the 50th anniversary of the Defiance Campaign launched on 26 June 1952;
(2) further notes that thousands of South Africans, black and white, volunteered to defy unjust and oppressive apartheid laws;
(3) believes that the role played by these volunteers contributed decisively to the overthrow of apartheid colonialism and to the creation of a nonracial, nonsexist and democratic South Africa;
(4) commends the vision, commitment, courage and dedication displayed by these patriotic volunteers; and
(5) calls upon all South Africans to display the same spirit and to answer to President Thabo Mbeki’s call of Vukuzenzele, so that all South Africans become partners in realising the ideals of the Freedom Charter.
[Applause.]
Mr E K MOORCROFT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DP:
That the House -
(1) notes with alarm reports that the illegal collection of perlemoen could be as high as 30 times the legal harvest;
(2) further notes that this is unsustainable and threatens one of our most valuable marine resources;
(3) regrets that this unsustainable poaching is carried out with apparent impunity in a country which is about to host the World Summit on Sustainable Development; and
(4) endorses the DA’s call to the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and the Minister of Safety and Security to work together as a matter of great urgency to put an end to this evil.
Prince N E ZULU: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of Parliament:
That the House -
(1) appreciates Eskom’s restructuring of its business and reprioritisation of the needs of its customers in order of affluence and poverty status, reaffirming its commitment to working with other companies to improve economic conditions for all of Africa’s citizens;
(2) welcomes the stand taken by the Union of Electrical Energy Producers in Africa that power utilities were set to play a pivotal role in the provision of infrastructural development as an integral part of their contribution to Nepad;
(3) recognises that the African Union’s stand is in keeping with creating investor confidence in the economic development of the country and other neighbouring states who benefit from South Africa’s electricity supply; and
(4) calls on all stakeholders involved in the production and distribution of electrical energy to gird their loins and pull together for Africa’s regeneration.
Dr Z P JORDAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) that the Freedom Charter declares that: ``South Africa shall be
a fully independent state which respects the rights and
sovereignty of all nations'';
(b) the long delay in the implementation of the UN Peace Plan for
the Western Sahara, and the attempts to substitute the self-
determination referendum with other solutions that do not
recognise the legitimate rights of the Saharawi people; and
(c) that South Africa will host the African Union conference in July
2002; and
(2) calls on the UN to fulfil its mandate to decolonise the Western Sahara through a genuine, fair and complete self-determination and without further delay. [Applause.]
Mnr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Mev die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek namens die Nuwe NP by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis kennis neem -
(1) van die kommerwekkende bevindings van ‘n interne verslag van die Departement vir Staatsdiens en Administrasie wat op die volgende dui:
(a) byna 20% van Suid-Afrikaanse staatsamptenare sal teen 2005 MIV-
positief wees; en
(b) Vigs sal die lewens van 253 000 staatswerkers teen 2012 eis as
die departement nie die nodige voorsorg tref nie;
(2) dat, indien hierdie bevindinge gaan realiseer, dit dienslewering reeds in 2005 sal lam lê;
(3) dat die Nuwe NP glo dat dit absoluut noodsaaklik is dat die verslag die Departement vir Staatsdiens en Administrasie, maar ook alle ander departemente, tot proaktiewe optrede dwing en dat die nodige gebeurlikheidsplanne gereed moet wees, sodat departemente nie tot stilstand gebring sal word weens die impak van MIV/Vigs nie. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House takes note -
(1) of the alarming findings of an internal report of the Department for the Public Service and Administration which points to the following:
(a) nearly 20% of South African public servants will be HIV positive
by the year 2005; and
(b) Aids will claim the lives of 253 000 public servants by 2012 if
the department does not take the necessary precautions;
(2) that, if these findings are going to be realised, it will paralyse service delivery already in 2005;
(3) the NNP believes that it is absolutely essential that this report should force the department for the Public Service and Administration as well as all the other departments to proactive action and that the necessary contingency plans be put in place, so that departments are not brought to a standstill as a result of the impact of HIV/Aids.] Mr D G MKONO: Madam Speaker, I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of this House:
That the House:
(1) notes the report of the murder of a Malmesbury prison inmate who was found with his hands tied and a rope around his neck;
(2) condemns the ironic comment by the Correctional Services prison officials who stated that they cannot rule out the possibility of suicide;
(3) further notes this event highlights the seriousness of corruption and crime, as well as the evidence of racism and prejudice in the Department of Correctional Services heard before the Jali Commission;
(4) expresses its concern that these are yet further examples that the Department of Correctional Services is dysfunctional and unable to fulfil its duty to properly incarcerate and rehabilitate prisoners; and
(5) calls for an independent inquiry into the death of the Malmesbury prisoner, and further calls on the Minister of Correctional Services to urgently implement workable strategies to correct the dysfunctional state of his department.
[Applause.]
SEVENTH ANNIVERSARY OF SOUTH AFRICA'S 1995 RUGBY WORLD CUP VICTORY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T D LEE: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that 24 June marked the seven-year anniversary of South Africa’s victory in the 1995 Rugby World Cup Tournament; (2) remembers the contribution that this victory made towards nation- building in South Africa; and
(3) expresses its appreciation and gratitude to the Springboks, the Proteas, Bafana Bafana and all other sportsmen and -women who compete at the highest level in their sporting codes and, in so doing, fly the South African flag with pride.
Agreed to.
WALK FOR PROMOTION OF ABSTINENCE FROM SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) congratulates “True love waits” and the group of young people promoting abstinence from sex before marriage who on Sunday, 9 June 2002, started walking 50 km per day from Port Shepstone to Pietermaritzburg, arriving on Friday, 14 June;
(2) notes that -
(a) the walk, coinciding with Youth Month, was to urge youth to
abstain from sex before marriage; and
(b) a crowd of school children thronged along the sidewalk to
welcome the campaigning youth when they entered Durban on
Wednesday, 12 June;
(3) commends Ishmail Maluleke, leading goalscorer for Manning Rangers in the Premier Soccer League last season, for his participation and agrees with his comments that “this is a very good cause as many youngsters contract the killer disease and it is up to us to ensure that we are protected against HIV/Aids, and the best way to do that is to abstain”; and
(4) also commends the Minister of Health and the provincial MEC for Health, who gave their support to the initiative.
Agreed to.
EXTENSION OF DATE BY WHICH AD HOC COMMITTEE ON FILLING OF VACANCY IN
COMMISSION FOR GENDER EQUALITY MUST COMPLETE ITS TASK
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding the resolution adopted on 24 May 2002, the date by which the Ad Hoc Committee on Filling of Vacancy in Commission for Gender Equality must complete its task be extended from 24 June 2002 to 21 August 2002. Agreed to.
REFERRAL OF MINERAL AND PETROLEUM RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BILL DIRECTLY TO HOUSE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, in the event of the National Council of Provinces agreeing to the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill [B 15B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75) subject to proposed amendments today, the House resolves that, notwithstanding Rule 270, the bill and the amendments proposed by the Council, be not referred to the relevant Portfolio Committee but be put directly to the House for decision later today.
Agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF WORKING GROUP OF AFRICAN UNION ON PROTOCOL TO THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE AFRICAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY RELATING TO THE PAN-AFRICAN PARLIAMENT
Report adopted without debate.
PROTOCOL TO THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE AFRICAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY RELATING TO THE PAN AFRICAN PARLIAMENT ACCORDINGLY APPROVED.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I have been advised by the Minister of Foreign Affairs that the instruments of ratification of this protocol that we have just agreed to will be deposited with the OAU prior to the summit next week. [Applause.]
Tomorrow there will be a historic meeting in this Chamber when members of over 27 parliaments from Africa will come together to discuss the African Union and the Pan-African Parliament. This will be the first occasion when so many African parliaments will come together and exchange views on how they can work to build African unity. I wished to inform you of that.
Many of you will not be here, because you will be on recess. I am sure that in your constituencies you will be helping to build this nation, as well as African unity. I do wish you well during the period before you come back.
PERSONAL EXPLANATION
The SPEAKER: Hon members, earlier this month a matter was referred to the Disciplinary Committee. I have received the report of the Disciplinary Committee. Based on that, hon member Solo wishes to make a statement to this House.
Mr B M SOLO: Madam Speaker, I will be brief. The comment that was made, was made within the context of the debate that was taking place. I note that certain people felt very offended and for the remarks I made, I duly apologise. [Applause.]
Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, I accept his apology. [Applause.]
DISESTABLISHMENT OF SOUTH AFRICAN HOUSING TRUST LIMITED BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Committee on Housing thereon)
There was no debate.
Report adopted and Bill agreed to.
IMPLEMENTATION OF THE ROME STATUTE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development thereon)
There was no debate.
Report adopted and Bill agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON FILLING OF VACANCIES ON SA HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION
There was no debate.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, on this order on the filling of vacancies on the SA Human rights Commission we need to ensure that there is a majority. So, though a division has not been demanded, I will ask members to record their votes so that we have an accurate count.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
AYES - 267: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Andrew, K M; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Eglin, C W; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; Gerber, P A; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Heine, R J; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lowe, C M; Lucas, E J; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maphalala, M A; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Mashimbye, J N; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Omar, A M; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; Semple, J A; September, C C; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sono, B N; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Turok, B; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Waters, M; Xingwana, L M T; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
Report accordingly adopted in terms of section 193(5)(b) of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF RULES COMMITTEE OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, 2002
Declarations of vote:
Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, question time in this House makes a mockery of the concept of the constitutional imperatives of parliamentary scrutiny and oversight, and holding the executive to account. [Interjections.] The proposed Rules require that up to 16 days’ notice be given for oral questions and follow-up questions are severely restricted.
The Rules Committee had the benefit of a comparative study of seven other countries. Question time in Canada was described as, and I quote from the report, ``a relatively free-wheeling affair with tremendous spontaneity and vitality’’. On each sitting day there is a 45-minute question period for oral questions without notice. What a contrast to what we have in this Chamber!
In Germany, five days’ notice is required; in Botswana, three working days; and in Zambia, only half a day, and there are questions on every sitting day. In Finland, no notice is required. In the UK, in Prime Minister’s question time, no notice of the question content is required. In Australia, there is no notice and they have questions every sitting day. [Interjections.]
Are our Cabinet Ministers so timid, so insecure or so incompetent that they have to be shielded from vigorous and spontaneous scrutiny? Hardly surprising, given the appalling lack of effective delivery of services to the people. Hardly surprising, given that the Rule changes have been driven by the Deputy President’s parliamentary counsellor, whose job is to protect the interests of the executive, not those of members of Parliament.
The proposed Rules are designed to protect the President and Ministers, not to hold them to account in a meaningful way. The DP will not support the further erosion of democracy in South Africa. [Applause.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, at a time when more attention is focused on how effectively Ministers are managing the delivery of services, we believe that a member’s right to hold the executive accountable must be strengthened rather than weakened. This calls, in the first instance, for an honest and critical appraisal of our system of questions since it is one of the most transparent ways of holding the executive to account.
There are some weaknesses in the system. Firstly, very few questions get answered orally so that a member has a chance to engage the Minister. Secondly, sometimes Ministers have been evasive in their answers, and with a single follow-up question it is difficult to pinpoint the issue a member wants to expose. Thirdly, some guidelines are needed to protect the Chair, which is sometimes perceived as having selective vision when some parties end up not having the opportunity to put follow-up questions during a sitting. In this way parties’ right to hold the executive accountable is diminished.
However, in line with our character, we will be consistent and support the present system of questions with the knowledge that further amendments will be effected which may include the reintroduction of interpellations. [Applause.]
Mnr J DURAND: Mnr die Voorsitter, die Nuwe NP is verheug dat daar vandag ‘n besluit geneem word oor die nuwe vraestelsel. Die proeftydperk vir die nuwe vraestelsel duur nou al reeds meer as twee jaar. Dit is tyd dat die Reëls sodanig verander word sodat dit die nuwe stelsel vervat. Die sweperye van alle partye het op ‘n deurlopende basis hierdie nuwe vraestelsel gemonitor en indringend bespreek. Hierdie besprekings het ook gelei tot sekere wysigings aan die nuwe stelsel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr J DURAND: Mr Chairman, the New NP is delighted about the fact that a decision will be made regarding the new question system today. The trial period of the new question system has already been longer than two years. It is time for the Rules to be changed so that it entails the new system. The Whipperies of all parties have monitored and discussed this new question system in great detail on an ongoing basis. These discussions also led to certain amendments to the new system.]
Some of these amendments contain very positive aspects. The number of supplementary questions was reduced from five to four in order to save some time.
Previously, the time limit for a reply to a supplementary question was at the presiding officer’s discretion. In terms of the new Rules, Ministers and Deputy Ministers answering supplementary questions will be limited to two minutes. This saves a tremendous amount of time and allows for more questions to be answered during question time. [Interjections.] The New NP will support the decision. [Interjections.] [Applause.] We are of the opinion that this new system has been tried and tested and has already become part and parcel of our new democratic Parliament. The old arguments about the advantages and disadvantages of the old interpellation system and the old question system have been dealt with in this House on several occasions. We have now reached the point where clarity is needed regarding the question system that this democratic Parliament has decided to implement.
It stands to reason that the New NP is of the opinion that Parliament should always strive to improve its proceedings and, for this reason, there should always be ample opportunity to place suggestions on the table that can bring about improvements to the system. The New NP has already approached the Speaker with a request to assist in solving problems relating to delayed responses to written questions asked by MPs. This matter will have to be addressed as a matter of urgency.
Met die voorbehoud dat die stelsel verder gemonitor en geëvalueer word, asook dat daar voorsiening gemaak word dat die nodige regstellings aangebring kan word, steun die Nuwe NP hierdie besluit. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[On condition that the system continues to be monitored and evaluated, as well as that provision is being made for the necessary adjustments to be maid, the New NP supports this decision. [Applause.]]
Mr S ABRAM: Mr Chairperson, one must accept that no innovation is cast in stone. Of course, interpellations were an innovation which came about, I think, during the time of the three-chamber Parliament. They had served their purpose and we cannot be held back. We have to accept that there must be new innovations. As time progresses there are new demands and we need to answer the demands of the time.
The current system which is being finalised today, hopefully - I am certain that a majority will support it - is a system which allows for engagement also by the smallest of small parties. As a result, if the official Opposition believe that they should have a monopoly and that they should try to sustain a monopoly, then they are living in a fool’s paradise. [Interjections.] Smaller parties in our democratic system should be …
Ag man, die helfte van julle is brakke wat net kan blaf. [Gelag.] [Applous.] Bly stil, man! [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Oh, man half of you are dogs that can only bark. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Keep quiet, man! [Interjections.]]
All I would like to appeal for is that, even if there are stupid follow-up questions from the Opposition, hon Ministers should respond to them and see to it that they respond with dignity, even to stupid questions.
As far as we are concerned, this system is conducive to good debate and to allowing maximum involvement. Of course, it may not be perfect, but as time goes on we will have to adapt it.
We from the UDM support the system and therefore we support the adoption of this report. [Applause.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, it is over two years since the trial run of the new questions system commenced. The system has advantages and disadvantages, but the advantages seem to outweigh the disadvantages. Parties that fail to follow up on questions set do so of their own volition. The system provides that if the order in which questions are put to the President and Deputy President is interrupted, the next turn to answer the question will resume from the point where the order was interrupted, thus ensuring that all parties have turns to put questions to the Presidency. Research has shown, however, that elsewhere, even in Africa, the period between the asking of the question and the reply from the executive, be it oral or otherwise, is much shorter. We hope that with the passage of time replies to questions will be given more promptly because politics is dynamic, and what is new today may be stale in the next six hours. Waiting for up to a week for a reply is long and two weeks, as in the case of the Deputy President and the President, is rather too long.
Let us hope that in time to come we shall have a situation in which members of the executive can answer questions ex tempore. The UCDP will nevertheless support the proposed amendments to the Rules of the National Assembly. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, the review of the existing question procedure started in the Chief Whips’ Forum at the beginning of the year 2000, so it is important to take stock of the existing practice and the actual experience.
There have been a number of extensions granted up until today and today has to become a deciding factor. However, let us work on the basis of the existing experience. Out of 17 question days between May and November 2001, the ANC had 53 questions and the DP 35, few in number as they are.
Furthermore, a very small party, such as the ACDP, had 13 questions. In other words, this clearly indicates that the advantage of this particular system is a fair spread right across parties.
Out of supplementaries, the ANC, in the same period between May and November 2001, had 66 supplementary questions and the DP 121. [Interjections.] A party that is represented by only one member in this House, the AEB, had 17 supplementary questions. Clearly, that also reinforces the huge advantages of this particular system. [Applause.]
The basic principle underlying the question system that we want to pass today is that each party has a right to a question, and as the ANC we want to endorse that principle. We support this particular new amendment. [Applause.]
Report adopted (Democratic Party dissenting).
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SERVICE AND
ADMINISTRATION - RETENTION OF SERVICE
Report adopted without debate.
MINERAL AND PETROLEUM RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BILL
(Consideration of amendments)
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I have been informed that the National Council of Provinces has agreed to the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill, subject to proposed amendments. The proposed amendments have been circulated to members.
Question put in accordance with the resolution agreed to earlier: That the following amendments proposed by the National Council of Provinces be agreed to:
SCHEDULE II
On page 53, in the second line of item 12(1), to omit Schedule'' and to
substituteAct’’.
On page 53, in item 12(4), to omit within five years from the date of
commencement of this Act'' and to substitutein the prescribed
manner’’.
Amendments agreed to.
MINERAL AND PETROLEUM RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BILL
(Decision of question)
Question put: That the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill [B 15B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), incorporating the amendments, be agreed to.
Bill, incorporating amendments, agreed to (Democratic Party, Freedom Front and Afrikaner-Eenheidsbeweging dissenting).
THE PRISON SITUATION IN SOUTH AFRICA, WITH PARTICULAR REFERENCE TO
GROOTVLEI PRISON
(Subject for discussion)
Mrs P W CUPIDO: Chairperson, I would, first of all, like to thank Madam Speaker, in her absence, for granting this debate, as well as my Chief Whip, the hon Douglas Gibson.
I furthermore wish to thank Minister Skosana for his presence and his concern, as well as every hon member who will be participating today. I urge each and every member in this House today to rise above our ordinary political differences. Let us expose yet another crisis for what it is.
This is also an opportunity to show how serious we are. The difference between ordinary people and achieving people is their perception of and their response to failure.
My party en die Demokratiese Alliansie wil dit wat by die Grootvlei- gevangenis gebeur, in die sterkste moontlike terme verwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[My party and the Democratic Alliance want to reject, in the strongest possible terms, what is happening at the Grootvlei prison.]
South Africa today is crying …
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, can I disturb you. Order! Hon members, could you leave the Chamber quietly or be seated. Please continue, hon member.
Mrs P W CUPIDO: South Africa today is crying out for leadership that sees with a clear eye, that speaks with an honest voice and that acts with swift resolution for the good of all the people; leadership that faces difficulty without flinching and does the right thing even if that goes against narrow partisan interests; leadership that shoulders responsibility, that never seeks scapegoats to blame or invents enemies to hate, that gives clear direction and that trusts people and wins their faith in return.
That was a quotation from a speech by the hon Tony Leon, delivered on 13 February 2001 in this House.
After Minister Skosana was appointed in 1998 corruption and maladministration skyrocketed, which led him to appoint the Public Service Commission, the Department of the Public Service and Administration and the Jali commission to conduct audits and investigations.
Wat ons moet besef, is dat hierdie kommissies slegs ondersoeke loods, waarna hulle hul bevindings en aanbevelings aan die Minister voorlê. Die Minister moet dan optree. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[What we must realise, is that those commissions only initiate investigations, after which they submit their findings and recommendations to the Minister. The Minister then has to act.]
The investigations conducted by the Public Service Commission last year found, inter alia, inadequate recruitment selection procedures; poor investigation of qualifications and instances of potential nepotism in staff appointments; a backlog in the filling of advertised posts; insensitive application of the department’s affirmative action policy; bursaries not properly awarded; disciplinary action and dismissals compromised by a lack of preparation and planning; arbitrary handling of staff transfers; unprocedural staff performance-based cash awards; officials occupying state quarters while still receiving home owners’ allowances; the abuse of remunerated overtime; R68 million lost to sick leave in the department during the period of 1 April 1999 to March 2000; and shortcomings in human resources management.
The Public Service Commission also reported, in September 2001, on the management of suspensions, that a total amount of R1,8 million was paid to suspended employees over a period of eight months. This means that there are several staff members who sit at home receiving salaries and whose cases have not been investigated and finalised yet.
Daar is verlede jaar 279 gevalle van korrupsie, wanadministrasie, omkopery, seksuele teistering en mishandeling gerapporteer. Net 79 is ondersoek en het tot op datum slegs een ontslag opgelewer, en dit binne 15 maande. Die gebeurlikheid by die Grootvlei-gevangenis in die Vrystaat is van die jongste gevalle wat ontbloot is.
Die Demokratiese Alliansie en die DP versoek dat die Minister, as ‘n saak van dringendheid, beleid hersien, dat verhore van sekere sake van ‘n ernstige aard binne 48 uur geskied en dat hy kyk na ‘n spertyd waarvolgens alle ondersoeke van personeelverwante oortredings in Korrektiewe Dienste binne drie maande volledig afgehandel word, omdat kriminele nie kriminele kan oppas nie. Die Minister moet vandag vir ons sê wat presies die voorlopige Jali-verslag oplewer. Is die personeel wat hulle skuldig gemaak het aan dwelmsmokkelary en die verskaffing van brandewyn aan die gevangenes, aan die verhandeling van vuurwapens en aan die ruilhandel van jeugdige gevangenes aan volwasse gevangenes vir seksuele aktiwiteite steeds in diens? Is hulle tydelik geskors met salarisse of is hulle dalk permanent geskors?
Dit is absoluut onaanvaarbaar en met groot ontsteltenis dat hierdie Huis en die publiek moes kennis neem dat direkteur Setlai verplaas is. Dit is belangrik dat hy bly waar hy is omdat hy presies weet wat daar by Grootvlei gebeur het.
Die Minister moet ook vir ons sê wat presies sy besluit is met betrekking tot direkteur Setlai se posisie. Verder moet hy verklaar wat sy optrede of besluit is in verband met senior personeel wat opdrag gegee het dat die bewyse verbrand moes word.
Die grootste probleem in die agb Minister se departement is die personeel op middel en senior bestuursvlak. Dit is ook waar die oplossings lê. Van die 35 000 lede in Korrektiewe Dienste is 12 000 tot 15 000 in middel en senior bestuur. Die frustrasie van mnr Setlai oor die onvermoë en korrupte gedrag van sy personeel het daartoe gelei dat hy toestemming gegee het dat daardie video gemaak word, en hy moet natuurlik beskerm word en erkenning kry vir wat hy gedoen het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Last year 279 incidents of corruption, maladministration, bribery, sexual harassment and maltreatment were reported. Only 79 have been investigated and this has to date only led to one dismissal, and that within 15 months. What happened at the Grootvlei prison in the Free State ranks among the latest incidents that have been uncovered.
The Democratic Alliance and the DP request that the Minister, as a matter of urgency, revise policy, that hearings of certain cases of a serious nature take place within 48 hours and that he look into setting a deadline according to which all investigations of personnel-related transgressions in Correctional Services are completely finalised within three months, because criminals cannot look after criminals.
The Minister has to tell us today exactly what the provisional Jali report has yielded. Are the personnel who were guilty of drug trafficking and the supply of brandy to the inmates, of trading in firearms and of the exchange of juvenile inmates, providing them to adult inmates for sexual activities, still employed? Have they been temporarily suspended with salary or have they been permanently suspended?
It is absolutely unacceptable that, to their great dismay, this House and the public had to learn that director Setlai has been transferred. It is important that he should stay where he is, because he knows exactly what happened at Grootvlei.
The Minister also has to tell us what exactly he has decided in relation to director Setlai’s position. Furthermore, he has to explain what action or decision he is to take regarding senior personnel who gave orders that the evidence should be burnt.
The biggest problem in the hon the Minister’s department is that of the personnel at middle and senior management level. That is also where the solutions lie. Of the 35 000 members in Correctional Services, 12 000 to 15 000 are in middle and senior management. The frustration of Mr Setlai about the incompetence and corrupt behaviour of his staff led to his giving permission for that video to be made, and he must naturally be protected and receive recognition for what he has done.]
Minister Skosana said, in a speech at the Pollsmoor management area on Youth Day, 16 June 2001, and I quote:
But the freedom that we have in our young democracy should not be seen as a passport to crime and the abdication of responsibility. Government is committed to the establishment of a nonracial, egalitarian and crime-free society.
Sad to say, some members of Government might be in possession of such passports.
If this Government must rely on those behind bars to catch the perpetrators amongst those who watch and oversee them, then it is long overdue that this ANC-led Government accept full responsibility and rather stand back and save this country further embarrassment.
The voters out there are not blind; they judge us by our association. Association brings resemblance. The Minister’s problem is that most of the staff are comrades and they respond to their responsibilities just as they observe their political leaders doing. [Interjections.]
I say, again, that the commission’s concern can only inform the Minister. Transformation starts with the Minister and those in the department who understand the seriousness of the problem that faces us.
What we have seen on TV is only the tip of the iceberg. It is necessary that the Minister also expose officials, especially in other major prisons, such as the Durban Westville management area and the Johannesburg, Pretoria, Pollsmoor and Leeukop management areas. There might also be others that the Minister regards as priorities.
The DA says that the management in each prison and in each province and the National Commissioner, Mr Mti, should, first of all, take responsibility for all this chaos. Management is definitely accountable. They should play the ball in the court where it belongs.
Further investigations should stretch across officials and prisoners, especially juveniles who have been sexually abused and used for drug trafficking in prisons. To avoid further corruption, intimidation, victimisation, drug trafficking and sexual abuse, the Minister must consider installing cameras in all prisons. He must also say whether there is a director appointed to take charge of exposing and eliminating corruption. Audiovisual technology is successfully used in sports to root out wrong decisions in sport.
The DA municipality in Cape Town has installed cameras right across the city in order to catch thieves, and that is the reason the crime rate in the CBD area of Cape Town and other areas has dropped drastically.
We have surveillance cameras on our roads in order to catch road thugs - speed traps, as some call them. We even have cameras in this Chamber to show the taxpayers on open time which MPs sleep and which keep their seats warm. [Interjections.]
Cameras in stores and other places of business are now taking the place of police officers. The Minister must not wait another 15 months to report on this matter. The request of the DA is that he report back to this House within the next six months. [Applause.] Mr N B FIHLA: Chairperson, as the Government of South Africa, we say that we are winning the war against crime; that the tougher laws, the harsher penalties and the commitment of our police force are combining to finally bring an end to the escalating levels of crime.
However, recent revelations around corruption in our prisons cast a dark cloud over our entire justice system and negate my opening comments. The rise in our prison population since the early 1990s has put a stranglehold on our prison system and has forced prisons to operate at levels far exceeding their mandated maximums. The result is that the department’s rehabilitation work is severely curtailed and the efficiency of the department is compromised - all the more so when budget limits have forced the department to use most of its resources just for the daily living expenses of prisoners.
The department has the duty to control prisoners efficiently, improve the behaviour and personalities of prisoners and successfully develop the administration of correctional services. By any standards this is indeed a tall order. Given the low staff morale, staff shortages, allegations of nepotism, certain staff fraudulently acquiring employment in the department and criminal activities committed by some staff members, is it any wonder that the department has been rocked by the latest allegations of corruption and maladministration?
This dire situation calls for intervention by the hon the President and the hon the Minister. The Minister’s commitment to good and clean governance saw him approach the Auditor-General, the Public Service Commission and the Department of Public Service and Administration to conduct audits and investigations in 1999. The reports from both the PSC and the DPSA listed wide-ranging violations by some staff in the Department of Correctional Services with regard to qualifications, the filling of posts, the awarding of staff bursaries, transfers, disciplinary action, dismissals, merit awards and compensation for utilisation in higher posts. All these violations were addressed by recommendations by the PSC and the DPSA, of course, and these resulted in investigations and conclusive action taken by the department.
However, continued acts of corruption, maladminstration and violence within the department forced the Minister to appoint the Jali commission of inquiry. The commission has been instructed to focus its inquiry into prisons on the eight management areas identified. However, the situation at Grootvlei came to light, and the Jali commission was instructed to extend its investigation to include this prison as well.
The media have certainly raised debate around the revelations of the investigation. We are left to question the decay in our society when people entrusted with securing the safety of ordinary citizens from convicted offenders violate that sense of security. We question the integrity and morals of our society when employees in correctional facilities collude with convicted criminals to damage our youth and thereby the next generation of our society. We question a situation in which victims of crime, who gain some form of comfort from knowing that the perpetrators of crime are locked up, now question the rule of justice in the country and are dismayed and discouraged.
Are we heading for a lawless society where honest citizens are at risk? We have a nation built upon literacy, morals and decency. The choice is ours.
The Department of Correctional Services, while faced with criticism from all quarters, also has in its ranks honourable staff who are committed and unwavering in their support, not only to the department but to the Jali commission as well. These dedicated individuals have a thankless job, and they work under difficult circumstances. I think that not one of us sitting here today would want to be in their situation. Yet we expect miracles in the hardened environment of the prison.
The Minister has also seen fit to approach the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development for an investigation to be done by the Special Investigating Unit into corruption and maladministration in the Department of Correctional Services in relation to the following: the medical aid scheme, procurement problems, nepotism and corruption, the recruitment process, the violation of prison regulations by members of staff for the benefit of prisoners and crimes perpetrated by members within the prison environment in aid of offenders. This investigation will be given weight by the experienced forensic investigators from the SIU and the joint DCS-SIU recruitment of staff to fill our other posts.
A measure of a progressive state is the way in which it rises to challenges. Its accountability to the people, its dedication to righting the wrongs of the past and its commitment to remembering the past so as to avoid making the same mistakes in future are all indicators of a progressive state. In this respect, the Department of Correctional Services has certainly risen to its challenges.
It remains to be seen how far the transformation of our prisons is successful. The targets are there, although they may be difficult. The retraining of DCS staff to empower them to facilitate rehabilitation is a huge undertaking. However, as long as there continue to be staff members in the prisons who are corrupt and divisive, our prisons will remain hotbeds of injustice. [Applause.]
Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, I concur with the comments made by the two previous speakers. There is a problem in this country. We have a serious problem of corruption in the Department of Correctional Services, and nobody denies that. We accept that there is a serious problem. What has happened of late, including what we saw in those videos, is really unacceptable. There are no excuses for corruption, none whatsoever, but I think we need to look at the contributory factors as well.
There is a saying that goes: Keep your eye on the doughnut, not on the hole. I think that we, as members of Parliament and citizens of this country, should be looking at the entire doughnut and not just the hole. We have already heard from our colleague Mr Fihla about the problem of insufficient funding. We do not have sufficient funding in the Department of Correctional Services to deal with the problems there. The overcrowding in this country’s prisons is totally unacceptable, and it is something we have to deal with collectively. The staff shortages are unbelievable. The ratio of prisoners to warders is one of the worst in the world.
The morale of our department heads and officials is low, owing to the poor pay, to bad working conditions, to the poor public perception of the department’s members and to the inadequate facilities. The department inherited a system that is so flawed that it is going to take a great deal of time to sort out. The social circumstances of the majority of South Africans actually create the problems that we have, as do the bottleneck in the justice system and the lack of new facilities.
We could go on and on, but what about the progress that has been made? Firstly, the Ministry and the department have recognised that there is a corruption problem. The Minister has actually recognised this problem and brought in and initiated various commissions and investigations. The Minister called for the Jali commission to be established. The Minister and his department are committed to fighting corruption and crime. The department has introduced a new management system. There is continuous retraining of members.
Yes, there is a great deal still to be done. A lot of members need to be retrained, but the beginning has already happened. The commitment to segregating the different categories of criminals is another thing that is going to make a difference. At present people are lumped together; all sorts of criminals are thrown into prison together, and the hardened criminals are actually teaching the lesser criminals how they can go about plying their trade.
The continued efforts of the department to confine prisoners, but at the same time rehabilitate them, are to be commended. The introduction of the independent prison visitors and the inspecting judge is progress. The recent launch of the restorative justice system is progress. The establishment of self-sufficient institutions is an improvement. It is all progress towards sorting out the overcrowding and corruption in our prisons.
Corruption is not the problem of the Department of Correctional Services or the Government alone. It is the problem of every single member of Parliament and every member of the South African community. It is a collective responsibility. Business is corrupt. Business causes some of the corruption in the Department of Correctional Services. People are paying officials money in order to be awarded contracts. That is corruption from the other side. We need to call upon business to stop that corruption. We need to look at political parties. They should be doing something amongst their own people and within their own communities.
Corruption does not start in the Department of Correctional Services; it starts in society. The law must be upheld at all times and at all levels. There is no doubt about that. Those who have offended must be dealt with, and I am sure that the Minister and the department will deal with those who have been involved. But management must be in control. To say that departmental heads or prison heads should be promoted because they exposed things is not the way to deal with this. They should have come back to the department and reported what they suspected.
Corruption should be dealt with correctly and management should be in control. It is because the Department of Correctional Services is in control of the situation that these investigations have taken place. The very prisons that my colleague, Mrs Cupido, mentioned have, in fact, been investigated. The Minister called for investigations there, and it is because of the investigations that the corruption has been exposed.
A lot still has to be done and a great deal more control needs to be taken by management for corruption to be flushed out. The IFP commits itself to playing an active, positive role in bringing about the changes needed to beef up our system and to ensure that corruption is eradicated, that rehabilitation becomes the norm and that our prisons are well run and no longer overcrowded.
We will continue to fight for more funds to be made available to the Department of Correctional Services. We will see to it that an adequate ratio of prisoners to warders comes about in this country. We will together deem it our collective responsibility to strive to ensure that the best service is delivered by the Department of Correctional Services and by this Government to ensure that corruption is eradicated. [Applause.]
Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: Chairperson, would those who are interested in what I am going to say please use their interpretation receiving units. Those who understand all the official languages will not need to use them.
Ek gaan Afrikaans praat omdat dit ook ‘n dispuutpunt in die departement was: die taal wat ek en baie bewaarders aan moedersknie geleer het, waarin ons geleer bid het, waarin ons vir ons regte waarvoor ons geveg het en waarin ek in hierdie Parlement ‘n eed gesweer het van trou aan Suid-Afrika, maar ook die taal waarin ek vandag ‘n paar dinge wil sê oor die hele kwessie van Grootvlei-gevangenis en Korrektiewe Dienste.
Voordat ek by die meer omstrede sake kom, wil ek ‘n paar kantaantekeninge maak oor Grootvlei-gevangenis - ``kantaantekeninge’’ nie omdat dit onbelangrik is nie, maar omdat alles al so dikwels gesê is dat dit begin retories raak. Die probleem van hierdie Parlement en sy komitees is juis sy praatsiekheid. Ons praat oor alles en nog ‘n keer oor alles, ons luister na urelange voorleggings, maar ons toets nooit die resultate van praktiese toepassing en ingryping waar nodig nie.
Die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste het regtens of ten onregte perseptueel die kollektiewe simbool van hierdie Regering geword. Om daardie persepsie reg te stel sal genadelose en harde optrede vereis teen wie ook al skuldig is of probeer toesmeer.
Omdat die omvang van die Grootvlei-gevangenis se morsighede nie tot Grootvlei beperk is nie, wil ek my versoeke van die verlede hier herhaal.
In die eerste plek, onderwerp alle gevangenisse in Suid-Afrika aan diepgaande regterlike ondersoeke. Tweedens, laat ‘n behoorlike oudit doen van die topstruktuur, operasioneel en administratief, van die departement - nie omdat ons hulle by voorbaat van iets verdink nie, maar om vir die publiek te wys dat hulle bevoeg en betroubaar is. Derdens, verlig die oorbevolking van gevangenisse nie deur skuldiges vry te laat nie, maar deur op ‘n ander manier huisvesting te verskaf aan verhoorafwagtendes.
Vierdens, skei rehabiliteerbare gevangenes van daardie vir wie misdaad ‘n lewenswyse en ‘n loopbaan geword het. Rehabiliteerbare gevangenes is dikwels slagoffers van hierdie mense en word deur intimidasie en geweld in die misdaadspiraal binne gevangenisse betrek.
Die vergoeding van bewaarders moet hersien word. Hulle moet genoeg verdien om te kan leef. Hulle word heeldag blootgestel aan mense wat dikwels meer uit misdaad maak, as wat hulle verdien. Dit moet mos tot versoekings vir hierdie mense lei.
Of ons dit nou wil weet of nie, ‘n groeiende aantal Suid-Afrikaners is besig om al dieper weg te sink in ‘n moeras van immoraliteit, korrupsie, geweld en misdaad. Gesag en dissipline, selfs van die staat en die regspleging word geminag. Die vraag is: Waarom? Armoede, gierigheid, sosiale isolasie, werkloosheid en gevolglik ledigheid en vele ander dinge is ‘n deel van die antwoord.
Ek wil vanmiddag ‘n heilige koei hier bysleep. Ons Handves van Menseregte en gevolglik ons Grondwet ruk die balans wat daar behoort te wees tussen beskerming van ‘n individu se regte en sy vertrapping van ander se regte uitmekaar. Daar word hopeloos ontoereikend voorsiening gemaak vir gemeenskapsregte. Meeste van die lede sal met my verskil, maar die vraag wat hulle sal moet beantwoord, is of dit nie juis ten grondslag lê van die polisie se vermeende ontoereikendheid nie? Is dit nie aanmoediging vir korrupsie en veral geweldsmisdade nie? Is dit nie wat ten grondslag lê van Suid-Afrika se onvermoë om ekonomies te groei en werk en welvaart te skep nie? Of ‘n persoon iets werd is en of hy niks werd is in sy werkplek nie, maak nie juis ‘n verskil nie. Hy of sy word beskerm.
As daar ‘n les uit Grootvleigevangenis se gemors te leer is, dan is dit: Ons moet dringend begin om ons siekerwordende gemeenskap tot sy sinne te bring, voordat hy terminaal gediagnoseer word. Om te skerm en vingers te wys, gaan ons nêrens bring nie. Dit is nou tyd om op te tree. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[I am speaking Afrikaans since that was also a point of dispute in the department: The language which many warders and I were taught as a child; in which we learned to pray; in which we fought for our rights, and in which I swore an oath of allegiance to South Africa in this Parliament - but it is also the language I want to use today to say a few things about the whole issue of the Grootvlei Prison and the Department of Correctional Services.
Before I get to the more contentious issues, allow me to make a few side-
notes'' about Grootvlei Prison -side-notes’’, not because they are not
important enough, but because everything has already been said so many
times that it becomes rhetorical. The problem of this Parliament and its
committees is indeed their garrulousness. We talk about something and then
talk again on the same issue, we listen to submissions for hours on end,
but we never test the results of practical application and intervention
where necessary.
The Department of Correctional Services is indeed perceived, rightfully so or not, as the collective symbol of this Government. Rectifying that perception will demand harsh and ruthless action against whoever is guilty or is trying to cover things up.
Since the extent of Grootvlei Prison’s mess is not limited to Grootvlei, I wish to reiterate my former requests.
Firstly, all prisons in South Africa should be subjected to thorough judicial inquiries. Secondly, have a proper audit done of the top structure, both operational and administrative, of the department - not because we suspect them of anything in advance, but to show the public that they are competent and reliable. Thirdly, we need to alleviate the overpopulation of prisons, not by setting the guilty free but by providing a different type of accommodation for those awaiting trial.
Fourthly, separate prisoners who can be rehabilitated from those for whom crime has become a way of life and a career. Prisoners who can be rehabilitated are often victims of these people and become part of the spiral of crime within prisons through intimidation and violence.
The remuneration of warders needs to be revised. They have to earn enough in order for them to live. All day long they are exposed to people who often make more out of crime than what they earn. That surely has to lead these people into temptation.
Whether we want to know it or not, an increasing number of South Africans are sinking deeper and deeper into a quagmire of immorality, corruption, violence and crime. The authority and discipline of even the state and the judiciary are treated with contempt. The question arises: Why is that the case? Poverty, greed, social isolation, unemployment and resultant idleness, and many other things form part of the answer.
This afternoon I wish to slaughter a sacred cow. Our Bill of Rights, and consequently our Constitution, disrupts the balance that should exist between the protection of the individual’s rights on the one hand and the abuse of another’s rights on the other. Hopelessly insufficient provision is made for communal rights. Most members will differ with me, but the question that they will have to answer is whether that is not in fact the basis of the police’s alleged inadequacy. Is that not promoting corruption and violent crime in particular? Is that not the basis of South Africa’s inability to grow economically and to create jobs and prosperity? Whether or not a person is of any value at his place of work does not really make a difference. He or she is protected.
If there is a lesson to be learnt from the mess at Grootvlei Prison, then it is the following: We must urgently begin to bring our increasingly sick society to its senses before it is diagnosed as being terminally ill. To evade the issue or to point a finger will get us nowhere. Now is the time to act.]
Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Chairperson, before I start, I must say, with the evidence of the cameras around us, that my colleagues and I were watching with disgust the reaction that we received from officials of the department sitting in this Chamber. They are laughing about this matter as if it were a joke. If this is the seriousness that the officials are taking this matter with, then we have a far more serious problem than any of us can start to imagine in this House. [Interjections.]
The Grootvlei Prison video tape illustrated graphically our worst fears regarding the state of South African prisons. The UDM would argue that the video must be treated as a case study of the state of our prisons. We should not for one second doubt that the same situation prevails at other prisons throughout the country. The truth is also that these kinds of practices are not new. They happened in the past as well. However, what is of serious concern is the extent of these incidents and the lack of control thereof. It has spun out of control. Furthermore, even more alarming is the total absence of a willingness to deal decisively with these revelations on the part of the management of the Department of Correctional Services.
The commissioner’s response is typical of the kneejerk reaction that we have become used to from Government when corruption is exposed.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Bloem, are you rising on a point of order?
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order I think it is really unfair for the member at the podium to attack defenceless people who have never laughed at this debate. Now she is politicising this debate. It is unfair because the officials cannot speak for themselves, and that is why she is doing this. My point of order is that it is unfair. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Can I appeal to hon members not to refer either to visitors in the gallery or to officials in the bays as they are not part of the debate. Let us proceed with the business before the House.
Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Chairperson, I would also like to bring it to the attention of the hon Bloem that we are actually busy with politics in this House. [Interjections.]
In order to deal with this unbearable situation decisively, an umbrella approach is needed. Exceptional circumstances require exceptional measures and that is exactly what the UDM proposes.
Mrs B M NTULI: Chairperson on a point of order: I think the hon member is attacking those people and it would be correct for her to apologise.
Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Chairperson, no, I am not apologising, I am sorry. Then you can remove me.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Ntuli, that is not a point of order. Please continue, hon member Van Wyk.
Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Chairperson, exceptional circumstances require exceptional measures and this is what we are proposing. The UDM believes that Correctional Services should immediately implement a system which uses administrative and technical personnel of Correctional Services to implement surprise inspections in prisons. These inspections should be conducted to clear all prisons of contraband items. Alternatively, personnel from prison A should inspect prison B for such items. This should be done immediately and then be kept in place for a period of at least a year. If this is to be successful, then neutral personnel need to conduct these inspections so that they can do so without fear or favour. In order to get to a point where we can even start to attempt to bring the situation under control, a clean area is a non-negotiable prerequisite.
Secondly, we believe that the exposure of corruption should be encouraged at all costs. In this regard, the transfer of the head of the prison to the provincial headquarters sends out the wrong message. No matter what spin is put on it, the message is that speaking out against corruption leads to persecution by the department. This is a wrong decision. It is within the Minister’s ability to change it. The Minister should please do so.
We urge the Minister, even if it means that he has to review the regulations, to have an incentive established for warders and prisoners to come out against corruption. In the case of warders these incentives can form part of their annual merit assessments. In the case of prisoners, it could be a decrease of their prison sentence if their participation in exposing acts of corruption leads to the successful conviction of those involved. [Time expired.]
Mr S N SWART: Mr Chairman, the ACDP and other parties highlighted the severe challenges facing the department during the recent budget debate. Prison overcrowding and staff shortages do not, however, justify the high levels of fraud and corruption which we are experiencing in our prisons. It appears, if the department’s report and the Jali commission are anything to go by, that these problems occur in many of our prisons.
Yesterday Commissioner Mti stated in the portfolio committee hearing that …
the legal mandate of the department remains unachievable while there continue to the staff members in our prisons whose criminal behaviour keeps the wounds of corruption, substance abuse, sexual violence and crime in our prisons festering.
We in the ACDP are, however, committed to assisting the Minister and the department in finding a solution to these problems. We do, however, share the view of other speakers that the video regarding the incidents at Grootvlei is shocking. I will repeat what I said last week, that the head of the prison deserves a medal for exposing this crime and corruption. Something which particularly disturbs me is the careless manner in which a particular warder was prepared, according to the video footage, to smuggle a fiream into the prison, knowing full well that this fiream could be used to murder other warders in an attempted escape.
I also need to comment on the press reports that have hailed the four prisoners who made the video as crusaders. I find it particularly reprehensible that the one prisoner, Sekutoane according to media reports, ``only’’ sodomised the juvenile prisoner to trap the warder. This prisoner has admitted to paying warders for juvenile sex many times. I find it shocking that he has now suddenly been transformed into a crime-fighting hero by this video.
I also find it shocking that juveniles were allegedly taken from their cells on the pretext that they had visitors and were then sexually abused, according to media reports. For a few rands, many of these young lives have been destroyed.
The ACDP calls for an urgent criminal investigation into these matters. We also welcome the announcement by the Minister that the Special Investigating Unit will conduct forensic investigations into corruption. We await the findings of the Jali commission. [Time expired.]
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, in the year 2000, this House adopted a specific Act, the Protected Disclosures Act, Act 26 of 2000. The Act’s long title states its object as follows:
To make provision for procedures in terms of which employees in both the private and the public sector may disclose information regarding unlawful or irregular conduct by their employers or other employees in the employ of their employers …
The preamble of this Act states, and I quote, that every employer and
employee has a responsibility to disclose criminal and any other irregular
conduct in the workplace'' and thatevery employer has a responsibility
to take all necessary steps to ensure that employees who disclose such
information are protected from any reprisals as a result of such
disclosure’’.
We must ask ourselves in this debate whether we are following the principles of this Act.
Nee, die verantwoordelikhede wat ook op die werkgewer berus, word deur hierdie optrede om die hoof van die Grootvleigevangenis te verskuif, ‘n streep deur getrek. Dit help nie ons kom maak wette en as dit toegepas word, dan is dit ‘n geval van ``shoot the messenger’‘nie.
Dit is ‘n werklikheid dat hierdie film ‘n klad is op die naam van DKD. Dit gaan nie die klad skoonmaak om van die mense wat dit bekend gemaak het, te wil rondskuif en teen hulle te wil optree nie. Die VF se standpunt is: Tree op teen die oortreders. Ons weet almal dat by gevangenisse is dit kriminele, maar moenie dat ons self kriminele word om wette te oortree nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[No, the responsibilities of the employer are being hampered by this action to move the head of the Grootvlei Prison. It does not help that we make laws and when it comes to its enforcement, it is a case of shoot the messenger.
It is a reality that this film is a slur on the name of DCS. We will not get rid of the slur by moving around or taking action against those people who made this known. The standpoint of the FF is as follows: Act against the transgressors. We all know that we have criminals at prisons but let us not become criminals ourselves by breaking the laws.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, on the occasion of the debate on the Correctional Services Budget Vote on on 4 June, I raised the question of the Department having officers who seem to be a law unto themselves. I feel vindicated by what has since been revealed at Grootvlei Prison.
Prisons seem to be the greatest centres of corruption as against correction and rehabilitation. If 28 officers at Grootvlei alone get implicated in acts of corruption, that sounds as if it is a permanent and normal feature of the institution. Commissioner Linda Mti, addressing the portfolio committee yesterday, said, and I quote:
… the legal mandate of the department remains unachievable while there continue to be staff members in our prisons whose criminal behaviour keep the wounds of corruption, substance abuse, sexual violence and crime in our prisons festering. We surely have a problem on our hands if the commissioner can say this about his officers. We may have potential inmates of those prisons dressed in officers’ uniforms. It is unfortunate that the bureau seems to be pointing a finger at the officer who authorised the filming of the video at Grootvlei while downplaying the blatant acts of corruption perpetrated by the officers at the prison.
The prison warders at Grootvlei continued to show gross disregard for authority when a week went past without their responding to notices asking them to show cause why they should not be suspended. The notices, according to the reports, had to be responded to within 24 hours of receipt. If this is not insubordination, then tell me what it is.
Allegations to the effect that some white prisoner at the same prison used the k word when referring to black members of the commission have to be investigated thoroughly. Drastic action has to be taken if someone is finally found guilty. A question that goes begging is: What do this officer and others of his ilk call black inmates and how does he treat them? [Time expired.]
Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, the PAC is familiar with prison conditions in South Africa, especially from the time of the kidnapping of its former chief of operations Letlapa Mphahlele from Lesotho in 1996 and his subsequent imprisonment in Grootvlei, where a number of former Apla members were also imprisoned. The conditions at Grootvlei were not much different from those under the apartheid regime. For example, Thabiso Magwala was assaulted viciously until he bled through his nose and mouth and later died. Malusi Morrison was refused medical treatment. When he threatened that he would sue the state, he was asked if he would sue the state if he lived in Cuba.
Immediate steps must be taken by the Minister of Correctional Services. Juveniles must not be mixed with adults. This is happening in many prisons because of prison overcrowding, and sodomy is the order of the day. The four whistle-blowers at Grootvlei who are prisoners there must be removed from there and be detained elsewhere.
The PAC finds it strange that Mr Tatolo Setlai, who resisted pressure to destroy the video tape revealing the corruption in Grootvlei, is being made a target. Of course, it is important to know how the video camera found its way to four criminals in Grootvlei and the real motive for this. For instance, was it to expose corruption or was it there for something else?
Finally, this is the time to affirm and strengthen the hand of the Minister of Correctional Services, who has done a sterling job of bringing transformation to one of the most conservative institutions of our land.
Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF has firstly to express its shock, disgust and disappointment at the Grootvlei prison situation. It is understood that our justice system is firmly structured to protect South Africa and all South Africans. Our correctional services are well structured to instil rehabilitation, prevention, retribution and so many other programmes to protect our community, and assist those doing wrong in not doing so again.
With regard to the incident at Grootvlei, the MF finds it shocking that these things managed to surface and become public; that it was no speculation but it is what is happening at prisons throughout the country. The matter is being dealt with far too leniently. Our prisoners are people with constitutional rights too. Let us bear that in mind. Our prison warders and persons who seek to participate in the correctional services need to have instilled in their duties and deep within themselves our constitutional values as well as the law as a primary activity.
The MF proposes that the situation in prisons be looked into and that nothing be kept from the eyes of our people. We are all here to serve the people of South Africa and ensure that delivery takes place in a most transparent and honest manner. This incident has painted a poor picture of South Africa’s correctional services and certainly makes the community lose its confidence in our system, and that is totally unacceptable. We hope that the Minister will get every assistance in overcoming these situations in our prisons.
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, vergun my enkele aantekeninge wat gemaak moet word in hierdie debat. In die eerste plek, die AEB salueer die rol van die media. ‘n Saak wat al lankal broei onder die kombers het op die nasionale agenda gekom, danksy ‘n televisieprogram, Special Assignment. Daarom het ons vandag hierdie debat. Laat hierdie insident vir ons ‘n wekroep wees om nooit die vryheid van die media hoegenaamd aan bande te wil lê, selfs al sou dit nie ‘n aangename boodskap wees wat tot ons kom nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, allow me a few comments which must be made in this debate. In the first place, the AEB salutes the role of the media. A matter which has been simmering for a long time has reached the national agenda thanks to a television programme, Special Assignment. For that reason we have this debate today. Let this incident be a clarion call for us never to want to curb the freedom of the media in any way, even if the message which reaches us is an unpleasant one.]
Secondly, the reaction to the programme was perhaps just as alarming as the programme itself. The commissioner on TV, in my view, was too indecisive in rejecting just everything. The negative reaction against the whistle- blowers, the four inmates, and the prison head, Mr Setlai, derailed the whole issue.
Asof wat hulle gedoen het die oortreding was, eerder as wat in die tronke aangaan. [As if what they did was the offence, rather than what is happening in the prisons.]
In terms of the general reaction, this incident cannot be isolated. It happens in other prisons, it happens in other departments, it happens in other spheres of public and private life. Let this be an alarm signal warning us that corruption should be combated in every place and any sphere.
With regard to the prisons, anybody calling prisons a place of rehabilitation right now must surely be joking. It needs a holistic approach and clean-up, and a new model has to be introduced.
‘n Laaste punt, baie ongewild: Die AEB vra dat lyfstraf teruggebring word in Suid-Afrika. Ons sit met oorvol tronke. Slaan liewers die jong misdadigers se agterstewes aan die brand en stuur hulle dan huistoe. Ons skree vir menseregte, maar ons laat toe dat jong manne wat ligte oortredings begaan het, die doodsvonnis kry deur hulle tronk toe te stuur om verkrag en gesodomiseer te word en met die HIV-virus besmet te word. Kom ons vergeet hierdie skynheiligheid en bring lyfstraf terug. Ons sal sommer baie probleme sodoende oplos. Die AEB doen ‘n beroep dat hierdie ding sal lei tot ‘n omvattende plan om alles te hersien. [Tyd verstreke.][Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[One last point, which is very unpopular: The AEB requests that corporal punishment be reintroduced in South Africa. We have overpopulated prisons. Rather hit the young offenders’ backsides until they burn and then send them home. We are crying out for human rights, but we allow young men who have committed minor offences to receive a death sentence by sending them to prison to be raped and sodomised and infected with HIV. Let us forget this hypocrisy and bring corporal punishment back. In this way we will solve many problems. The AEB appeals that this thing will lead to a comprehensive plan to review everything. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]]
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Chairperson, the conditions prevalent in our prisons are not something new. Our prisons, with few exceptions, as in the olden days, remain places for reforming those who have been convicted, but they are places where corruption, vice and wrongdoing are prevalent. We must remember that we have inherited a system which was designed not to rehabilitate anybody and, therefore, we must not forget that the task of redressing that will take a long time.
One is very happy that the Minister has actually started that process. We must not forget that this is a very long process in which we, all together, must assist in seeing to it that it achieves its end objectives. It has been done in respect of the SA Police Service and, if we do the same here, we are most likely to succeed.
However, I want to make two statements before I end. We can teach prisoners as much as we can, but we must remember that the society in which we live is culpable for not providing institutions and corrective education capable of producing prison staff and inmates that can champion the values and norms of the new society. The guilty are not only those who commit crime but also those who create the conditions for crime to be committed. We therefore call on the department to continue with its efforts to transform the prison services. [Applause.]
Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Mr Chairperson, I want to start by doing the unusual, ie thanking the hon Cupido for raising for discussion a matter of national significance. It is about time that an issue of this nature confronted us, one of national significance that needs to be discussed very soberly. I must also say that when we discuss this issue we must recall the words of our former President when he said:
The way a nation handles its prisoners is a reflection of that society.
I think that is very valid. It is something that we must recall all the time when we discuss issues pertaining to correctional services. However, we must be in a position to recall that we are not only dealing with prisoners. We are also dealing with those who have to make sure that the prisoners are punished and rehabilitated. Those people are the prison warders and the staff members. I think that anybody who comes to this podium and rubbishes the work of the warders is, at best, an individual of no consequence. I think we should refrain from doing that.
Those who fought for freedom and democracy, and even paid the supreme sacrifice for that freedom, are the ones who have created the space and an enabling environment where such video footage could be flighted. Today, in this our solid and consolidating democracy, we will not - I repeat, we will not - take to the gallows those who took the steps to remind us of our our responsibility to root out corruption.
The contents of the Grootvlei prison video footage flighted on national television in the recent past are shocking, alarming and unspeakable. Be that as it may, it is only the tip of the iceberg. We must remember that the prison system finds itself at the end of the pipeline of our societal problems. As public representatives, let us look at the bigger picture. Firstly, may I ask that we examine that which has been done so far. Since his appointment, Minister Skosana has focused on the fight against corruption in his department. Given the extent and nature of the corruption in the DCS, there can be no quick fix to corruption. As a result of the Minister’s work and particularly his response to the murder of Thuthu Bhengu at Pietermaritzburg prison, Minister Skosana requested the President to set up the Jali commission.
If we reflect over the past year, we will note that the Jali commission has been working in close co-operation with the senior management of the Department of Correctional Services; that steps are being taken to implement recommendations on the interim reports of the Jali commission; that an interdepartmental investigative task team has been established or is being established to be on standby to investigate any information from whistle-blowers; that a lot of effort has gone and must continue to go into ensuring that the space and temptation for corruption and criminal activity by the management of the prison system are minimised and that decisive steps are taken to uproot corruption wherever it occurs.
As we talk about what needs to be done, we should not lose sight of three factors that militate against the prison management’s success in their work. The first is overcrowding and, hence, the overextension of members of staff in the prisons. The second is the inadequate retraining of DCS staff to understand the current paradigm and to be able to manage appropriately. The third issue that militates against the department’s success is the incoherence of discipline in the DCS.
In the wake of all these issues, we call upon the leadership of the DCS to develop feasible plans to build an institutional capacity to fight a culture of corruption that dates back many decades. The DCS management should utilise the Grootvlei video to strengthen the anticorruption programme both in the preventive and the combative sense. Crime and corruption are inherent to the community of inmates. The challenge of a clean prison system is a world-wide phenomenon. Extra vigilance in management style and tightened discipline in the department are required at all times.
Now that we have spoken about what has been done and that which needs to be done, I think we must also briefly refer to the footage itself. That is what I intend to do now. Honesty and uncovering deception make heroes of us all. However, selective honesty and the selective divulging of deception are tantamount to collusion. Questions have been raised around the filming of the much-publicised video at Grootvlei Prison. The shocking footage was filmed with the permission of the head of the prison. Having received the gun which was sold to a prisoner on 12 April 2002, the head of Grootvlei Prison kept possession of the said gun for over a month without informing the police, the national commissioner of the police or the national commissioner of correctional services. The police are also puzzled as to why police were not involved in setting up the trap for the warders.
Further questions raised include the extent to which the head of the prison condoned or endorsed certain criminal acts just so that they could be captured on film. The movement of a juvenile from the head section of the prison to a particular prison cell without the head’s permission is highly unbelievable. Had he knowledge of the juvenile’s movements and intended purposes thereof? This then begs the question. Was the juvenile sodomised by the older inmate merely to capture it on film?
The portfolio committee’s oversight role has thus become that much bigger and more determined. We need to assure the public that public safety is our priority. Enforcement of the law is paramount. The Jali commission is still tasked with continuing the work in the other six management areas, namely Ngome, Johannesburg, Pollsmoor, Pretoria, St Albans and Leeukop. The Department of Correctional Services will continue to build capacity to respond to and take action in terms of the interim reports of the Jali commission on these management areas.
I do wish to request, as Mrs Seaton has already done, that the responsibility of dealing with corruption is not the only area that we as members of Parliament look at, but that we should look at all areas of delivery. The first area of delivery that we must not fail to look at is to make sure that the good policies that we have do not fail, and those good policies can only be carried out by the women and men who work in Correctional Services. [Applause.]
Those policies will be good policies if they are implemented and those men and women in uniform sitting in that gallery and who are sitting behind me, need to be properly resourced. That is the responsibility of all of us. Then all of us will feel in our pulse their march and their heartbeat as they root out corruption in those prisons. [Applause.]
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, I venture to say that the widely broadcast video showing the shocking events in Grootvlei Prison is a microcosm of the factual position within Correctional Services as a whole. Sexual abuse of minors, dealing in prohibited substances such as dagga and Mandrax and the unlawful selling of firearms and ammunition are all criminal acts to which a term of imprisonment upon a finding of guilty by a court of law could be imposed. All these alleged crimes are indicated in the video.
In addition hereto, the smuggling of liquor for the benefit of prisoners and the indulging by prison warders in liquor in concert with prisoners in their cells, which prisoners they are supposed to rehabilitate, are all offences which the disciplinary code of Correctional Services regards as serious offences.
These offences may be heard by a disciplinary tribunal, which could result in such members being discharged from Correctional Services. However, it is ironic that Correctional Services members, appointed and trained to protect the public from some of the most dangerous convicted criminals in our prisons, would, in fact, overtly and unashamedly break the laws of the same institution they are required to uphold.
We had not heard much of the Jali commission before the Grootvlei video became available. This commission, constituted on 27 September 2001, has only dealt with two prisons, I believe, being Westville Prison and Pietermaritzburg Prison. Their reports have not been made available, and it is only the courageous efforts of four prisoners which has resulted in the Jali commission rising to such prominence. It was these same prisoners to which the national commissioner attempted to turn a blind eye. This is nothing short of a disgrace.
His attempt to indicate to the public, very unconvincingly, that there was no evidence in terms of which the 22 Correctional Services staff members could be suspended smacks of a lack of insight into the law and duties for which he was appointed. His sheer lack of insight and refusal to suspend those members involved indicates his inability, with respect, to serve in that position. I associate myself with the remarks made by the hon member Annelizé van Wyk in this regard early this afternoon.
However, the DP applauds the Minister for deciding to do just that which the national commissioner failed to do. The taking of statements from those four prisoners will not only provide more than ample opportunity to have those warders suspended, but will enable the SA Police Service to have them arrested on serious criminal charges.
The question is whether he in fact even tried - this is the national commissioner - to obtain statements from these four prisoners. I venture to say that he probably did not even consider doing so. The Jali commission in itself will not resolve the underlying cause of these problems. It is the combined effect of a failing justice system, a failing police service, and the resultant effect thereon on Correctional Services which has been overcrowded by at least 60 000 prisoners. While the present capacity of all South African prisons is 106 000 prisoners, the latest number of prisoners appears to be in the region of 172 000. It is thus the criminal system as a whole which needs attention, not only from the Minister of Correctional Services but also from the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development and the Minster of Safety and Security.
Proper budgetary provisions are required to enable each of these Ministries to fulfil its function properly. More policemen, more experienced prosecutors, more equipment and proper maintenance of buildings is required, not grandiose plans. Disciplinary measures should be taken without fear or favour, and those found guilty should be treated in accordance with what is required in terms of the law.
What is needed is a national commissioner who would have suspended these officials and made an example of those prison warders who unashamedly broke the law. Why is it that the national commissioner, like some of his predecessors, lacks the willingness to react against such offenders? Is it because Popcru has become an uncontrollable force which has the ability to cause the collapse of the whole of Correctional Services should he react against these members?
It is these questions which need to be answered and the answers to which the public needs to know. The DA requests all those prisoners and prison warders who are aware of anyone breaking the law to step forward and bring the necessary facts to the attention of the Public Protector and all other relevant institutions. The sooner the Department of Correctional Services develops a sustainable and clean investigative and disciplinary capacity, the sooner it will be in a position to combat corruption and crime within the prison system. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, first I would like to echo the pleas made by several members who spoke here appealing that we should not use the incident at Grootvlei to condemn the entire prison system, because it is our prison system. I think we should not in any way enforce a siege mentality because it is our prison and we cannot condemn the entire prison system because of that. I am the first one to admit that what happened there was very outrageous. It should not have happened.
I would like to begin by quoting from the remarks made by the former vice president of the United States, Mr Al Gore, when he addressed the Global Forum on Fighting Corruption: Safeguarding Integrity Among Justice and Security Officials, in Washington DC on 26 February 1999. He said:
We are on the eve of a new millennium. As never before, the world’s people need officials of their governments to serve them with unquestioned integrity. Corruption of justice and security officials especially betrays their trust. Corruption cannot long coexist with democracy and the rule of law. Corruption misallocates resources, hurts the poor, and weakens economies and societies. … we emerge persuaded that corruption is not inevitable. It is made by actions of men and women. Governments and their peoples can act and can succeed in our struggle against it, if only we have the will and the determination to do so.
In July 2001 I approached President Mbeki and requested him to appoint a commission of inquiry into alleged incidents of corruption, crime, maladministration, violence or intimidation in the Department of Correctional Services. On 8 August 2001 a commission of inquiry headed by Judge Thabane Jali, was appointed in terms of the presidential minute, No.423 of 8 August 2001, to inquire into and report on the alleged incidents of corruption in the department.
Allow me to put this matter into proper perspective for the benefit of informed debate on Grootvlei. When I took over as Minister of Correctional Services in 1998, several groupings, I think people and men of integrity and individuals within my department, approached me with allegations of corruption and financial mismanagement directed then against the then commissioner and other senior officials which, incidentally, had also been reported in the media.
I then initiated an investigation into the allegations through the Auditor- General. The findings of the Auditor-General were presented to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Thereafter the department was summoned to appear before Scopa. This process eventually led to the resignation of the then commissioner. Because of many unanswered questions still remaining, I felt that further probing of the department as a whole was necessary.
At this point I literally declared war against corruption in my department, which was motivated by my conviction and determination to promote a culture of clean administration and transparency in the department. I subsequently approached the Minister for the Public Service and Administration for a possible further inquiry into the department by her own department. This process led to the establishment of a management audit of my department which culminated in a report to the President, me and Minister Fraser- Moleketi, dated 18 February 2000.
In its process, the management audit came across new allegations of corruption and maladministration. As a result of these further allegations, I then called for a second phase of the investigation which was conducted jointly by the Department of the Public Service and Administration - DPSA - and the Public Service Commission to probe further into these allegations. The Public Service Commission investigation concentrated on allegations to do with human resource malpractices, while the DPSA investigation looked into all the other allegations of impropriety. The reports of these investigations were submitted to the President and Cabinet.
On 16 March 2001 the DPSA and the Public Service Commission presented their respective reports to a joint sitting of the Portfolio Committees on Public Service and Administration and on Correctional Services. While this investigation assisted in exposing corruption and maladministration in the department, many questions, however, still remained unanswered owing to their informal nature. It therefore became necessary to put in place a proper commission of inquiry with powers to summon and cross examine witness evidence and, hence, the appointment of the Jali commission. We have gone ahead to implement some of the recommendations of both the reports which require immediate action, and we are still doing so.
I am pleased to announce that the Jali commission itself has already made tremendous progress in uncovering corruption, crime and maladministration. In fact, the Jali commission has already made significant breakthroughs in its quest to uncover corruption and crime in the department. The commission has already completed its work in two of the nine prioritised management areas, namely Westville and Pietermaritzburg.
Information and evidence led in the Jali commission assisted in the apprehension and conviction of the departmental officials involved in the gruesome murder that sent shock waves across the country of Thuthukile Bhengu, our senior manager of human resources in KwaZulu-Natal.
Similarly, the information coming out of the work of the Jali commission on the Grootvlei incident must be seen as yet another breakthrough in the fight against corruption in the department.
I can therefore assure this House that the Government is winning this war on corruption in our prisons, which I have been waging since 1998. This, however, must not be misinterpreted to mean that the fight against corruption in our prisons is nearing completion.
In the South African prison system we are dealing with deeply entrenched cultures and subcultures - I have always said that - which involve both prison officials and prisoners. It is a system that mirrors society in many ways, sometimes defying both the laws of man and the laws of nature.
In this regard, it is necessary that the current corruption in our prison system is understood within the larger political and socioeconomic context of our country. We must therefore not view prison in isolation. We must also not view prison as a symbolic answer to the crisis of control that exists outside the prison walls. We also have a responsibility as members in terms of what exists outside the prison walls.
I would like to take this opportunity to draw hon members’ attention to the broader problems and challenges facing my department. As Correctional Services, we have always been on the receiving end of our criminal justice system, as people have said. We are currently facing a serious problem of overcrowding, which is undermining our efforts to comply with international norms and standards regarding prison management and offender rehabilitation. As a department, we have therefore concentrated our efforts on long-term strategic interventions to deal with the challenges facing us. There are no quick-fix solutions to our problems.
The recently adopted departmental strategic plan clearly shows how the department intends to allocate resources appropriately, thereby creating the necessary savings to allow us to shift more resources towards offender rehabilitation and the improvement of prison management during the current medium-term expenditure framework period.
The national commissioner has also been tasked to ensure the processing of the interim recommendations of the Jali commission as it progresses through the various management areas. This will result in the development of a sustainable investigative capacity within the department. It is expected that this internal investigative capacity will be enhanced through the secondment of experienced forensic investigators from the Scorpions’s unit. We are, indeed, looking at various options, including the possibility of taking over some of these investigators to establish an effective anticorruption unit for the Department of Correctional Services.
At this juncture it is important to mention the fact that we have only budgeted an amount of R8,7 million for the work of the Jali commission, based on the current nine privatised management areas. What is important to note …
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, I regret your time has expired.
The MINISTER: Chairperson, I just have a quarter of a page left. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: We will allow the Minister that latitude.
The MINISTER: What is important to note here is the fact that this money will not allow us to investigate each and every one of the 138 management areas of the department, hence the need to develop a sustainable internal investigative capacity.
The success of the transformation of our prison system will be the result of a joint effort by all stakeholders. I therefore welcome the concerns and issues raised in this debate, and I will personally make sure that they are also attended to.
I wish to inform this House that I have decided to embark on a road show, visiting all provinces to conduct anticorruption workshops. This campaign will begin with my visit to the Bloemfontein management area on Friday, 28 June. [Applause.] We did this with regard to the escapes and we managed to bring them down. I hope we will also deal a blow to this scourge. Let me end by quoting writer G B Caird, from his book Principalities and Powers: A Study in Pauline Theology:
As long as the state continues to perform its God-given task even if, in other respects, it shares in the general corruption of the present world order, it will still possess a divine authority which the Christian must obey, not merely from fear of the consequences but also for conscience’ sake. In other words, it is a Christian duty to keep within the law and to refrain from any conduct which will weaken the fabric of society.
With these words, may God bless the House and Correctional Services. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
GOOD WISHES TO MEMBERS
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, on behalf of the presiding officers, may I take this opportunity to wish you a restful winter recess. Travel safely. We look forward to seeing you back here in August, and I am sure we will be faced with a very interesting Parliament after the window period has come into effect. [Interjections.] There might be a lot of excitement to look forward to when we return. Let us wish you all a very restful recess. Keep warm. The House is therefore adjourned until 8 August 2002. [Applause.]
The House adjourned at 19:04. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
following Bill:
Land and Agricultural Development Bank Bill [B 12B -
2002] - Act No 15 of 2002 (assented to and signed by
President on 8 June 2002).
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
(1) Bills passed by National Assembly on 26 June 2002: To be
submitted to President of the Republic for assent:
(i) Disestablishment of South African Housing Trust Limited
Bill [B 3D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(ii) Implementation of the Rome Statute of the International
Criminal Court Bill [B 42D - 2001] (National Assembly -
sec 75).
(iii) Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill [B 15D -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(2) Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:
Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 26 June 2002 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill [B 15B -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
- The Speaker:
The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
relevant committees as mentioned below:
(1) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Justice and Constitutional Development:
(a) Proclamation No R 32 published in Government Gazette No
23364 dated 26 April 2002, Commencement of the Constitution of
the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Act, 2001 (Act
No 61 of 2001).
(b) Proclamation No R 33 published in Government Gazette No
23373 dated 01 May 2002, Commencement of sections 1(b) and 2
of the Legal Aid Amendment Act, 1996 (Act No 20 of 1996).
(c) Proclamation No R 34 published in Government Gazette No
23381 dated 03 May 2002, Commencement of section 16(4), made
in terms of the Judges' Remuneration and Conditions of
Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001).
(d) Proclamation No R 35 published in Government Gazette No
23384 dated 06 May 2002, Commencement of the Criminal
Procedure Amendment Act, 1996 (Act No 86 of 1996).
(2) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Environmental Affairs and Tourism for consideration and report:
(a) Agreement on the Conservation of Albatrosses and Petrels,
tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.
(c) Stockholm Convention on Persisitant Organic Pollutants,
tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(d) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.
(3) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Agriculture and Land Affairs:
Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Land Bank for the
year ended 31 December 200.
(4) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Agriculture and Land Affairs. The Report of the Auditor-General is
referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
consideration and report:
Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Bala Farms(Pty)Ltd
for the years ended 31 December 2000 and 31 December 2001,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for the years ended 31 December 2000 and 31 December
2001 [RP 76-2002].
(5) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Safety and Security:
Regulation No R 721 published in Government Gazette No 23443 dated
24 May 2002: Regulations tabled in terms of section 24(1) of the
South African Police Service Act, 1995 (Act No 68 of 1995).
- The Speaker:
Mr M J Mahlangu has been elected as chairperson of the Ad Hoc Committee
on Appointment of Public Protector with effect from 26 June 2002.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, dated 26 June 2002:
The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered a request to make a recommendation for filling a vacancy on the National Gambling Board, recommends, in terms of section 3(3) of the Gambling Act, 1996 (Act No. 33 of 1996), the following person for appointment to the Board:
Mr H M Tsengiwe.