THURSDAY, 12 SEPTEMBER 2002 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

Mr D A HANEKOM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that President George Bush and President Thabo Mbeki will take the centre stage at the opening of the United Nations General Assembly;

(2) further notes that President Mbeki will use this opportunity to urge extreme caution in respect of the dangers associated with the planned attack of Iraq;

(3) believes that such unilateral moves would pose a serious threat to world peace and security and will exacerbate turmoil in world markets, deepen levels of poverty and could result in an unprecedented increase in terrorist activities; and

(4) calls on President George Bush and British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to desist from unilateral militaristic approaches and state- sponsored terrorism against other nations.

[Applause.]

Ms J A SEMPLE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes a recent decision by the Supreme Court of Appeals that tenants who default on rental payments and buyers who default on bond payments will be protected against eviction;

(2) believes that this ruling -

   (a)  does not comply with the intentions of Act 19 of 1998 which  are
       to protect both the landlord and the tenant; and


   (b)  will have a negative effect on the property market as well as on
       the   availability   of   rental   accommodation,   particularly
       accommodation for poorer people; and

(3) therefore calls on the Minister of Housing to investigate the implications of this judgment as a matter of urgency.

Mr J H SLABBERT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes with sadness that a 19-year-old man, whom members of the community believed to be guilty of housebreaking, was beaten to death in Phillipi;

(2) further notes that he is just one of several victims of street justice in the Cape Peninsula over the last few days; and

(3) urges members of the communities not to take the law into their own hands, but to inform the police if they suspect that a person is guilty of any crime.

Mr P J GOMOMO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes reports that British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, has come under pressure from his country to explain Britain’s imminent involvement in a war on Iraq;

(2) further notes reports that the United States Congress is unconvinced of the need to embark on a war against Iraq;

[Interjections.]

(3) believes that this reflects a strong view that war will undermine the rights of the people of Iraq and will lead to unnecessary loss of life and destruction of property;

[Interjections.]

(4) further believes that the United Nations is the only legitimate structure which can determine whether Iraq has weapons of mass destruction; and

(5) echoes the voice of the people and political representatives in the United States and in Britain who are opposed to a military onslaught against the people of Iraq.

[Applause.]

Mr C B HERANDIEN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the New NP welcomes and supports the Minister of Housing’s quick response in seeking legal advice on possible Constitutional Court action following the recent ruling of the Appeal Court on the interpretation of the Security of Tenure Act as well as the Prevention of Illegal Evictions and Unlawful Occupation of Land Act;

(2) further notes that in the light of the New NP’s constructive engagement with Government, the New NP asked the Portfolio Committee on Housing to acknowledge our human rights with regard to housing but also to -

   (a)  protect the property rights of investors;


   (b)  protect the rights of financial institutions;


   (c)  protect the rights of estate and letting agents; and


   (d)  protect the rights of  tenants  who  will  have  to  pay  larger
       deposits and higher rent; and

(3) also notes that the New NP urges the Minister to deal with this matter in an amicable way, by revising the Act, as South Africa cannot afford uncertainty in the housing market.

[Applause.]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes media reports of the intention of US President George Bush, echoed by Tony Blair, to attack the state of Iraq;

[Interjections.]

That racist should shut up! [Interjections.]

(2) further notes that this stated intention is tantamount to a flagrant disregard for the ``rule of law’’ …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon member, no hon member may accuse any members of this House of being racist. Can you please withdraw that?

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, fine, they are not racist, but they are prejudiced against dark skinned people. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, when you withdraw, I would not like you to extend your statement. I would like you to withdraw.

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I withdraw. [Interjections.]

(2) further notes that this stated intention is tantamount to a flagrant disregard for the ``rule of law’’ in the face of widespread international and multilateral opposition to such a course of action, and that it flies in the face of international law and convention;

[Interjections.]

(3) calls upon the international community to reject the intentions of the USA, which will result in misery, destruction and the loss of lives of innocent Iraqi civilians;

[Interjections.]

(4) further calls specifically upon South African representatives at the UN to resist any attempt by the USA to get approval for a destructive course of action that will endanger not only the stability of the Middle East, but the whole world; and

[Interjections.]

(5) calls upon the millions of sober-minded and peace-loving Americans and British people, and others around the globe, to mount a campaign of writing letters, signing petitions and communicating with US and UK embassies, expressing their opposition to military action. [Time expired.]

[Interjections.] [Applause.]

Ms L MABE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Comrade Siphiwe Lawrence Zuma, President of the SA Student Congress and the SA Universities SRCs died at Newcastle Hospital on Wednesday, 11 September 2002;

(2) further notes that Comrade Siphiwe Zuma and his comrades were involved in a car accident on their way to attend the National Congress of the SA Democratic Teachers Union;

(3) also notes that the African National Congress dips its banner in honour of this young revolutionary, a dedicated cadre of our movement to the end; and

(4) expresses its condolences to his family and friends and the leadership collective of Sasco and the progressive student movement as a whole.

Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis, namens die VF, sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem dat -

   (a)   daar  tans  oorweldigende  steun  deur   verskillende   groepe,
       byvoorbeeld die Oorlegforum, Vriende vir Afrikaans, Groep van 63
       en  'n  Afrikaanse  groep   van   17   bekende   Suid-Afrikaners
       uitgespreek word ten gunste van die behoud van die  Universiteit
       van Stellenbosch as 'n Afrikaanse universiteit;


   (b)  Christa van Zyl, 'n derdejaarstudent aan  die  Universiteit  van
       Stellenbosch, 'n taalpetisie begin het  waarin  gevra  word  dat
       Afrikaans behoue moet bly by die Universiteit van  Stellenbosch;
       en


   (c)  hierdie petisie van Van Zyl oorweldigende reaksie op die  kampus
       uitlok, en dat tot onlangs reeds meer  as  2  000  studente  die
       petisie onderteken het; en

(2) haar gelukwens en sy volle ondersteuning uitspreek vir haar lofwaardige poging om, in haar eie woorde, ``die taalfakkel op te neem’’, en om sodoende saam met al die ander drukgroepe te help toesien dat Stellenbosch ‘n Afrikaanse universiteit bly. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the FF:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  that enormous support is currently being  expressed  by  various
       groups, such as,  for  example,  the  Oorlegforum,  Vriende  vir
       Afrikaans, Groep van 63 and an Afrikaans group of 17  well-known
       South Africans, in favour of the retention of the University  of
       Stellenbosch as an Afrikaans university;


   (b)  Christa van Zyl, a  third-year  student  at  the  University  of
       Stellenbosch, has started a language petition  in  which  it  is
       requested that Afrikaans should survive  at  the  University  of
       Stellenbosch; and


   (c)  this petition of van Zyl's is  eliciting  enormous  reaction  on
       campus and that until  recently  more  than  2000  students  had
       already signed the petition; and

(2) congratulates her and expresses its full support for her praiseworthy attempt to, in her own words, ``take up the language torch’’ and in so doing, along with the other pressure groups, help ensure that Stellenbosch remains an Afrikaans university.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, it has been brought to my attention that when the hon Ms Mabe was reading her notice of motion, expressing condolence, a member from the DP benches shouted: ``Aids!’’ when she said that Comrade Zuma had passed away. [Interjections.]

We would submit that that is not parliamentary, and that it displays gross insensitivity to the problems we face as a nation. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like any member who might have said so to please withdraw that, because I do not think that it will be fair.

Mr B G BELL: Madam Speaker, I apologise. It was totally unacceptable. [Interjections.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern the ongoing tug-of-war between the Mpumalanga Education Department and Laerskool Middelburg, regarding the declaration of the school as a dual-medium one by the Department and the opposition thereto by the school;

(2) prays fervently that children should not become the subject matter of a dispute between people who hold different views on how schools should be run;

(3) brings to the attention of the school authorities that a public school has to be accessible to all children who live in its vicinity, regardless of their race, sex, pigmentation, language or social background;

(4) pleads with the education authorities in the province and the school to ensure that the interests of the learners are the guiding factor; and

(5) calls on the Minister of Education to step in to resolve the absurd situation in which education is denied to English-speaking children by the school.

Mrs M L NGWENYA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the World Summit on Sustainable Development held in Johannesburg resolved to halve the proportion of people without access to safe drinking water and sanitation by 2015; (2) further notes that this move is part of plans to provide a healthy environment through improving sanitation in households and in public institutions;

(3) believes that this represents a conscious attempt by world leaders to create a friendly global environment, and to reduce levels of poverty; and

(4) welcomes this decision taken at the Summit, as this will improve the quality of life of people, especially the poor throughout the world.

[Applause.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes - (a) that is has been five months since the KwaZulu-Natal Aids Project secured R800 million from the Global Fund;

   (b)  that Government has yet to approve the funding and is basing the
       delay on the fact that proper protocol was not followed; and


   (c)  that the reality is that Government is  hoping  that  the  delay
       tactics will cause the loss of this funding  because  Government
       is reluctant to support the KwaZulu-Natal  bid,  which  includes
       anti-retroviral therapy; and

(2) calls on Government and the Minister of Health to stop playing childish games, and to allow the funding to be channelled to the rightful proposers so that they can continue with their projects.

[Applause.]

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes that, on 1 October, the ``kerb-to-kerb’’ public transport system, which consists of wheelchair-friendly minibuses, and is aimed at people with disabilities unable to use existing forms of public transport, will be introduced to Cape Town;

(2) hopes that this service will be affordable to all people with disabilities;

(3) acknowledges that this service will be of great assistance to the disabled community; and

(4) congratulates the people responsible for bringing this service to the people.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes reports that the spin doctor of the provincial government of the Western Cape, which was controlled by the DA, paid R123 000 to DA spin doctor Ryan Coetzee between April and July last year;

[Interjections.]

(2) believes that the DA abused taxpayers’ money to fund its own party operation and has failed to separate party structures from government structures;

(3) further believes that the conduct of the DA during its reign of power in the Western Cape demonstrates hypocrisy and opportunism, as it agitates for clean, transparent and accountable government, while having done exactly the opposite during this period; and

[Interjections.]

(4) calls on the DA to come clean on the allegations of corruption and maladministration during their reign of power in the Western Cape.

[Applause.] [Interjections.]

                  ANNIVERSARY OF STEVE BIKO'S DEATH

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that today is the twenty-fifth anniversary of the death in detention of the founder member and father of the Black Consciousness Movement in this country, Stephen Bantu Biko;

(2) recalls the monumental contribution that Biko made to the liberation struggle in his quest to bestow a human face on our country; and

(3) salutes this gallant and fine Son of the Soil.

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

NATIONAL STRATEGIC INTELLIGENCE AMENDMENT BILL AND INTELLIGENCE SERVICES CONTROL AMENDMENT BILL TO BE REFERRED TO AN AC HOC COMMITTEE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed on the Order Paper in the name of Chief Whip of the Majority Party’s as follows: That the House, upon their introduction, refers the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill and the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill to an ad hoc committee of the House for consideration and report, and for that purpose establishes a committee in terms of Rule 214, the committee -

(1) to consist of 21 members;

(2) to consider the Bills in accordance with Chapter 13 of the Rules;

(3) to exercise those powers in Rule 138 that may assist it in carrying out its task;

(4) subject to the concurrence of the National Council of Provinces, to confer with a corresponding Council committee and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; and

(5) to complete its task by no later than 17 October 2002.

Agreed to.

CONSIDERATION OF TWELFTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - LEGAL AID BOARD

                         (Draft Resolution)

Report adopted without debate.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENT OF PUBLIC
                              PROTECTOR

                         (Draft Resolution)

There was no debate.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes the report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Appointment of Public Protector; and

(2) notwithstanding Rule 214(6), instructs the committee to continue with its task, the committee to report by no later than 15 October 2002.

Report adopted without debate.

CONSIDERATION OF SECOND REPORT OF RULES COMMITTEE OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 204: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Botha, N G W; Bruce, N S; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber, P A J; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishiva, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlangu-Nkabine, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malumise, M M; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa- Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mutsila, I; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Omar, A M; Oosthuizen, G C; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Radebe, B A; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Sekgobela, P S; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, I G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Wyk, J F; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 54: Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Blaas, A; Blanche, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Da Camara, M L; De Lille, P; Doman, W P; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Geldenhuys, B L; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Herandien, C B; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; McIntosh, G B D; Mogoba, M S; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Niemann, J J; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rhoda, R T; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Semple, J A; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Waters, M.

Question agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS -
   APPOINTMENT OF BOARD OF MEDIA DEVELOPMENT AND DIVERSITY AGENCY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Appointment of Mr G M Boloka, Ms K J Cullinan, Ms K Mkhonza, Mr C J Moerdyk, Ms N Ntshingila and Mr G Reddy to the Board of the Media Development and Diversity Agency recommended. (DP and FA dissenting).

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: The names of the six persons recommended will be forwarded to the President.

   SOUTH AFRICAN MARITIME AND AERONAUTICAL SEARCH AND RESCUE BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Mr Chairperson, Acting President, colleagues and hon members, it is a pleasure to introduce the debate on the SA Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill, 2002.

Before 1958, there was no formal organisation responsible for search and rescue in South Africa. However, an obligation for ships to assist vessels in distress was enshrined in a tradition and international treaties. On 1 October 1958, the department of transport became responsible for the co- ordination of the SA Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Programme, and the permanent committee for search and rescue was created.

In October 1961, the government widened the scope of the permanent committee and changed its title to the Permanent Executive Committee for Search and Rescue. There are two conventions which are relevant in this regard …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Honourable members, can we settle down please? I am sorry, Minister. Please continue.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: The two conventions relate to maritime matters and aviation-related matters. The International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue, which is commonly known as the SAR Convention, was adopted in Hamburg in 1979. It was aimed at developing an international search and rescue plan so that, no matter where an accident occurs, the rescue of persons in distress will be co-ordinated by a search and rescue organisation and, where necessary, by co-operation between neighbouring search and rescue organisations. The adoption of this convention saw the Pecsar being changed to the SA Search and Rescue Organisation in keeping with its national character and to identify it as a South African organisation.

The convention makes provision, amongst others, for rescue co-ordination centres and sub-centres. It outlines operating procedures to be followed in the event of emergencies or alerts or during search and rescue operations. This includes the designation of an on-scene commander and his duties. Parties to the convention are required to establish ship reporting systems under which ships report their position to a coastal radio station. This enables the interval between loss of contact with a vessel and the initiation of search operations to be reduced. It also helps to commit rapid determination of vessels that may be called upon to provide assistance, including medical help, where necessary. That relates to maritime matters.

Then there is the Convention on International Civil Aviation. Annexure 12 to that convention follows the ideas which are contained in the SAR Convention. I am happy to report that South Africa, as a party to these conventions, has already complied with most, if not all, of the provisions of these conventions.

I just want to briefly give members two examples of disasters in which the SA Search and Rescue Organisation intervened with a view to search and rescue. First and foremost is the Helderberg disaster when an SAA plane went down 300 km off Mauritius on 28 November 1987. Our search and rescue organisation co-ordinators were called to be in charge of this search and rescue effort in co-operation with the Mauritian authorities. That is an aviation example.

Then there is a maritime example, which I want to use. Members will recall that, on 4 August 1991, a luxury liner, the Oceanos, sank off Koffie Bay. All the 571 Greek passengers on the liner were saved. This accorded the organisation in our country international recognition and respect. There are many other incidents of successful rescues to which I can refer. There is no need, however, to go into those details at this stage. But I would like to thank all those who have been involved in our Sasar, the SA search and rescue efforts. I also want to thank the National Sea Rescue Institute, whose members render voluntary service. They have rendered outstanding services to the country. I also want to thank Samsa, the SA Maritime Safety Authority, for the work which it has done in this regard.

The South African Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill seeks to provide a legal framework and statutory framework for the provision of a certain rescue service in South Africa. It also provides for the incorporation of the international conventions - the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue, 1979, and Annexure 12 to the Convention of International of International Civil Aviation, 1944 - so that they become part of South African Law.

Lastly, I thank all members of the portfolio committee for its work with regard to this matter, all the members of Sasar - the Department of Defence, Telkom SA, the Police, Air Traffic Navigation Services Co. Ltd, the SA Maritime Safety Authority, S A Airways and many other people who have helped making certain that rescue is put high on the agenda of South Africa and to make it a success. [Applause.]

Mr J P CRONIN: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and fellow members, I think that the hon the Minister has very adequately covered the Bill and there is no need, in summary, to say very much.

This South African Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill does two basic things. On the one hand, it incorporates into South African law two very important international conventions on search and rescue to which our country already is a signatory, and further provides the legal framework for the SA Search and Rescue Organisation, Sasar, as it is often called.

Sasar has existed since 1958. It is basically a co-ordinating committee, bringing together the skills and resources of a wide range of appropriate entities that may, from time to time, be involved in maritime or aeronautical search and rescue operations. These entities include the SA Police Service, the SA National Defence Force, the SA Civil Aviation Authority, the SA Maritime Safety Authority, Air Traffic and Navigation Services Co. Ltd, Telkom, local governments, the National Sea Rescue Institute and so forth.

South Africa, by international agreement, has a very extensive search and rescue area. It includes not just our own land territory, but very extensive areas of the south Atlantic Ocean and the south Indian Ocean as well. Unlike the wealthiest countries, such as the UK or the United States, we cannot afford to have a permanent coastguard-type agency, for instance. So we have this co-ordinating structure that, by all accounts, has performed exceptionally well over many years and the hon the Minister has mentioned a number of high-profile cases. In fact, just yesterday, there was another ship in distress off Richards Bay and the crew were all successfully evacuated from it.

Included on the Sasar structure are appropriate government departments and public agencies, but also some NGOs and, most noticeably, the National Sea Rescue Institute. The NSRI made a useful presentation to the portfolio committee on this Bill. We would like to commend, as the hon the Minister has just done, the approximately 650 NSRI volunteers who maintain rescue stations all along our coastline, 24 hours a day, from Sodwana to Saldanha Bay. We think that this voluntary work is extremely commendable in this year of letsema or volunteerism.

We had, as the hon the Minister knows, a slight wobble in the processing of this Bill as a portfolio committee. We had already completed what we thought was the formalisation of the Bill and we were bringing it to the National Assembly when Telkom made a very belated plea to us. They pointed out to us that the draft legislation did not make provision for the proposed restructuring and perhaps privatisation of Telkom, nor for the proposed second and what would be a competing fixed line operator.

As a committee, we thought that Telkom had a legitimate point and so we brought the Bill back to the committee. We removed all specific references to Telkom and made a more general reference to the obligations, in terms of sea and rescue operations, of any provider of a public switch telecommunication service. We are happier with this as the portfolio committee, and I think that holds true across parties. We believe Telkom is happier, and so is the department.

The ANC supports the SA Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill. [Applause.]

Mr S PILLAY: Mr Chairman, the SA Maritime and Aeronautical Rescue Bill is an essential one and seeks to incorporate international marine search and civil aviation conventions into South African law. It also establishes Sasar as an organisation to act as the authority responsible for the implementation of those conventions. It is an important Bill. Not only is it important, it is also essential. The recent spate of aviation and maritime disasters clearly indicate that we need to drastically improve our efficiency in terms of search and rescue. This Bill puts in place certain mechanisms and lays obligations on specific government departments to implement the aims and objectives of Sasar.

The South African coastline is renowned for its devious and treacherous seas, and not a day goes by without the National Sea Rescue Institute being involved in the rescue of some type of seacraft and its personnel that are in distress. We need to give recognition to the excellent work by this institute in saving lives and property. The NSRI was established about 35 years ago and their growth has been steady and consistent to the extent that they now operate 27 stations using 58 vessels.

All these are operated by approximately 600 volunteers who selflessly provide time and money to this noble cause. Other than an annual grant from the Department of Transport, much of the operational funds and capital come from public donations. Every effort should be made by the Minister to obtain more funds for them to continue this essential service and be more effective. At present, they receive an annual grant of a mere R400 000. Sasar’s executive committee has recommended that this amount be increased to R600 000 in addition to a further R600 000 per annum that will be used for fuels and lubricants in search and rescue operations. It is essential to note that the NSRI will be hosting the World Lifeboat Conference in March 2003, which will be another first for South Africa.

Aircraft and sea vessel passengers and crews will be able to have additional peace of mind, in the event of a distressful incident, in knowing that a fully functional search and rescue organisation has been established from which they will be able to receive any assistance they require. The establishment of Sasar should not be viewed as an end in itself but as the beginning of a journey, and we encourage all South Africans to become participants in it. Section 6 states that Sasar may perform its functions outside the Republic. This is an excellent thing to have happened. However, consideration must be given to the cost involved in any search operation. I would not want the taxpayer to continuously bear the financial burden of operations outside of South Africa without financial assistance from the countries requesting such assistance. Section 19 is of particular importance. Here I would encourage the Minister to communicate with all Ministers to obtain their assistance by ensuring that a notice with this emergency number is displayed in every government office. Minister Asmal should not be excluded from this notice, as this notice should be displayed in every school as well.

The Minister should also encourage the Minister of Safety and Security and the Minister of Defence to add elements of this legislation, including the dedicated emergency number, into their training programmes. To illustrate this point, my colleague, the hon Farrow, contacted four different police stations and asked them whether they knew who he could contact to effect a search and rescue operation. Predictably, none of them knew. In a life and death situation, this is not acceptable. Section 20 places an obligation on the aeronautical rescue co-ordination and the maritime rescue co-ordination centre to have a free flow of information, as it would result in a more effective search and rescue service. This would require personnel to be properly trained and cost-minded. [Time expired.]

Mr J H SLABBERT: Mr Chairman, hon Minister, colleagues. South Africa has the most … Before I start, I want to apologise for my voice. I have a terrible flu.

South Africa has the most advanced economy and infrastructure on the African continent. In addition, our country sits astride one of the main strategic links between east and west and north and south. The consequence of our special strategic and geographic position is the fact that our airspace and coastal waters provide lines of communications and trade to thousands of aeronautical and maritime operators, both foreign and domestic. Inevitably, the laws and nature dictate that some of the operators will experience problems and emergencies as they traverse our airspace or coastal waters. As a responsible member of the international community, South Africa has for decades accepted certain search and rescue obligations to assist those operators that find themselves in distress.

The Sasar was established as far back as 1958 but, astonishingly, no legislation expressly providing for its establishment or functioning was ever enacted, even though South Africa was a signatory to international conventions dealing with search and rescue operations. Since our return to the international community in 1994, the International Maritime Organization and the International Civil Aviation Organization requested that this oversight be ratified as soon as possible.

The IFP supports the Bill before the House as it provides a legal framework for search and rescue services in South Africa and provides for the incorporation of the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue, 1979 and Annexure 12 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, 1994 into South African law.

When the Portfolio Committee on Transport first considered the Bill, the proposal was that any aircraft or vessel in distress had to report its situation to the SAPS. As we know, it is no secret that the SAPS has suffered badly from lack of resources, and we accordingly felt that the response time would not be adequate to deal with such emergency notifications. When one is in distress, one is really in distress. Instead, the committee agreed that a national dedicated emergency reporting number would be created and manned by the national Department of Transport. The IFP fully supports this change.

After we had finalised the Bill, but before it came to this House, Telkom SA Limited objected to its statutory inclusion in the composition of the Sasar on the basis that it may be privatised in future, and it would be unfair to prescribe a statutory role to a private company in the functioning of a state organisation. The Portfolio Committee on Transport felt Telkom had a convincing argument and it was therefore removed from the composition of Sasar. The IFP supported this move as it clearly demonstrated to us that, beyond the merits of the argument, public participation in the legislative process is a worthy and valuable exercise as the unintended consequences of our well-meant decisions are sometimes not immediately obvious. As a result, the legislation is much improved.

The IFP supports the Bill.

Mnr J J NIEMANN: Mnr die Voorsitter, al wat ek kan bydra tot hierdie debat, is om n Afrikaans te praat, maar my inhoud is presies dieselfde wat die Minister op ‘n baie bekwame wyse aan ons oorgedra het, asook die voorsitter van die komitee en die vorige sprekers. As ek nou enigiets moet sê, moet ek herhaal wat reeds presies gesê is. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek kan dit altyd mooier doen. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr J J NIEMANN: Mr Chairman, all that I can contribute to this debate is to speak Afrikaans, but my content is exactly the same as that which the Minister very competently conveyed to us, as well as the chairperson of the committee and the previous speakers. If I have to say anything at all, then I would have to repeat exactly what has already been said. [Interjections.] I can always do it better.]

As a matter of fact, I want to say it in English. In short, this Bill just creates a legal framework for the provision of maritime and aeronautical search and rescue services in South Africa. That is what it boils down to.

Finish en klaar. Baie dankie aan die Minister. Goeie wetgewing. Die Nuwe NP steun hierdie maatreël. [Applous.] [``Finish en klaar.’’ [Over and done with.] Thank you very much to the Minister. Good law. The New NP supports this legislation. [Applause.]]

Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, it is vital for this Parliament to ensure that South Africa remains on track and in sync with international law and convention. The Bill before us today seeks to achieve exactly that goal in terms of maritime and aeronautical search and rescue activities. Given the escalation of maritime and aeronautical traffic in and around our borders, the establishment of the Sasar organisation cannot come at a more apt moment in time. Only yesterday, rescue operations had to be carried out off the coast of South Africa on a vessel experiencing an uncontrolled fire on board.It is apt, especially in terms of the often treacherous seafaring conditions along our coastline and the importance for South Africa and many of its landlocked neighbours’ economies of our harbours for export and import facilities.

The ability of the SA Government to mount search and rescue missions cannot be overstated. Notwithstanding South Africa’s long-standing reputation of assisting troubled vessels such as the courageous effort earlier this year when a vessel became stranded in Antarctica, improved co-ordination, capacity and funding can only be welcomed. The UDM supports the holistic and integrated approach that underpins this Bill as reflected in the composition of Sasar under section 5, subsection 1, where all the relevant bodies in the maritime and aeronautical services and regulations are included. Similarly, the creation of rescue co-ordination centres and subcentres will ensure proper, timely and integrated search and rescue management.

Finally, we cannot disregard the new world of transport safety and regulations that we live in post 11 September 2001. In this regard, too, the Bill is a necessary and adequate measure. Therefore, the UDM supports the Bill.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the SA Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill provides the legal framework for the provision of a search and rescue service in South Africa, to empower those responsible to carry out their tasks effectively and to incorporate the international convention on maritime search and rescue into our law. Currently, organisations involved in search and rescue are doing so on a voluntary basis with the Department of Transport being expected to pay for fuel and lubricants used during search and rescue operations.

Today I would like to pay special tribute to the NSRI which, since its inception in May 1967, has, as at July 2002, conducted 11 222 search and rescue operations, has assisted 18 141 persons and 3 787 boats and, most significantly, has saved 1 865 lives. In the 35 years of their existence, they have had only one fatality.

The ACDP supports this Bill. [Time expired.]

Mrs N D MBOMBO: Chairperson, the South African Maritime Aeronautical search and Rescue Bill legislates for a structure that has actually been in existence for some years. The South African Search and Rescue organisation was launched in 1958. Sasar has been providing the research and rescue function on behalf of the South African Government, which is also in accordance with the various international conventions to which South Africa is a signatory.

The Sasar is in fact a co-ordinating structure in the case of a search and rescue operation. The Sasar draws on the resources and expertise of various role-players. Many of these role-players are from Government, the SANDF, the SA Police Services, the National Port Authority, air traffic, navigational services, the SA Maritime Association, the Civil Association, Telkom, etc.

The Sasar has also been able to call on the services of a number of voluntary organisations including the National Sea Rescue Institute and the Mountain Club of South Africa. Search and rescue efforts involving vessels at sea or aeroplanes very often require international co-operation. Indeed, South Africa is a signatory to two international conventions - the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue and the Convention on Civil Aviation. This Bill formally incorporates these conventions into South African law. South Africa also has a number of international obligations in terms of various treaties to assume responsibility for extensive parts of the southern Atlantic and southern Indian Oceans. Although it has been in existence since 1958, the co-ordinating structures did not have any legislation providing for their existence. This has been identified as a potential weakness by our key international partners. Most of them have relevant national legislation.

This is what we are seeking to correct in this Bill. Passing this Bill might also have the additional advantage that it could enable the Department of Transport to subsidise a little more generously some of the voluntary organisations, in particular. Over the last few years, Government has given an annual subsidy of R400 000 to the NSRI. We are hoping that consideration might be given to a slightly more generous approach to this important voluntary organisation.

The ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I want to comment on one or two aspects. The firstly is that of our international obligations. I think the hon Pillay referred to our search and rescue efforts being extended to include neighbouring countries, for example. The reality is that the conventions imposed obligations upon us. They are not just obligations which we have taken upon ourselves even though, without the conventions, I believe South Africa, being a caring society, would have, nonetheless, accepted the responsibility. The IMO has designated an area of responsibility, to which the hon Cronin referred. On the western side, it is approximately half-way between South Africa and South America. On the eastern side, it is approximately half-way between South Africa and Australia. On the northern side, it borders on Namibia, Angola, South Africa and Mozambique and proceeds right down to the South Pole. So, in terms of the IMO designation, we have a huge area of responsibility.

Secondly, with regard to our international obligations, what we are doing is to negotiate, not only with our neighbouring countries, but with other countries generally, across the globe, wherever possible, and to enter into mutual agreements on certain rescue matters. We have already concluded a large number of agreements and we are in the middle of conducting negotiations for other agreements as well. I am very supportive of the efforts of the NGOs, and I am thinking here in particular of the NSRI. A number of members have spoken about. I do believe that, if it is possible, the subsidies paid to the NSRI should be increased. [Applause.] At the same time, I encourage entities which also report to me to make donations to the NSRI. For example, the airports company in South Africa makes a substantial donation to NSRI as well. But, because of the nature of its services and the sacrifices members of NSRI make, the voluntary nature of the service by over 600 members, I do think they are an organisation worthy of support.

Lastly, I want to make the point that our biggest weakness, at the moment, relates to fishing vessel safety. There has been interaction between myself and the SAMSA. Two conferences have already been held, and SAMSA are currently preparing a draft action plan so that we address the issue of fishing vessels adequately. So, without going into detail, I give notice that I will be coming to the portfolio committee with a report on the work which we are doing on fishing vessel safety because if one looks at the incidence of loss of life at sea, generally, it has involved small fishing vessels and many of those losses can be avoided.

Finally, I take this opportunity and thank the portfolio committee again. As could be heard from the contributions which all the hon members made, very useful and constructive suggestions have been made. I want to thank the portfolio committee, its chairperson, Jeremy Cronin, for work that it has done and, once again, I thank all those involved in search and rescue efforts. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

                  ROAD ACCIDENT FUND AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, there is no need for me to dwell at length on the amendments for which we seek the approval of this House. Basically, we are asking that a provision which makes the Director-General of Transport a member of the board be amended to enable him, when necessary, to be represented by a substitute. The reason for this is that there have been a number of occasions on which the Director-General has not been available, which is not good for the Road Accident Fund Board.

Secondly, the Act provides that the board is to have at least 11 but not more than 12 other members, appointed by the Minister of Transport according to the procedure laid down in the Act. This minimum of 11 and maximum of 12 members has created a problem. The second amendment therefore seeks to create a bit of flexibility and provides for an appointed membership of at least eight but not more than 12 persons. Then we will not run into trouble if one or two people should resign.

Lastly, I have a problem with the fact that the procedure whereby members of the board are appointed is very cumbersome. The process commences with the publication, by the Minister, of a call for nominations. This is followed by the publication of a list of nominees. Then comes the establishment of a five-member selection committee, on which the two Houses of Parliament are also represented. This is followed by public interviews of the nominees. This is then followed by recommendations made by the selection committee to the Minister and thereafter the Minister makes the appointments.

In general, I do not have a problem with that procedure. It is a good procedure, which protects me to a large extent. It involves the House, which is able to participate in these processes. The problem I have raised is where vacancies occur. The question is whether the same cumbersome procedure should be followed if a vacancy occurs. The purpose of this amendment, and my proposal to the House, is that I should not be required to follow this cumbersome procedure.

It is not intended to create an opening for the Minister to make appointments willy-nilly, the way he likes. I do not envisage, for example, that during the course of a year there would be more than one or two vacancies. It is in order to deal with that kind of situation that there is a proposal that the Minister should be allowed to make the appointment, taking into account the criteria laid down in the Act. This is only insofar as vacancies are concerned.

When the new board is to be appointed, the original procedure and all the criteria and safeguards will remain in place. This is the aspect which, I know, has caused some pain and concern to members of the portfolio committee. I want to assure hon members, however, that this is designed to deal with a situation only where a vacancy occurs and no other situation. [Applause.]

Mr A R AINSLIE: Mr Chairperson, Minister and colleagues, I think the Minister has dealt very convincingly with the need for the amendments before us today. In doing so, he has also highlighted the importance of the Road Accident Fund.

While nothing can make up for the trauma and loss suffered by victims of road accidents and their loved ones, the Road Accident Fund at least provides some measure of relief. This relief is especially important when it comes to assisting poor households whose breadwinner has been killed or seriously injured in a road smash, and so many of them do happen in our country. It is an important institution, therefore, and it needs to operate efficiently and responsibly in pursuing its objectives.

In order to do this, the fund needs a strong and properly functioning board. This is the purpose of the Bill before us today. It proposes three amendments to the principal Act, so as to ensure the smooth functioning of the board. The Minister has gone into great detail regarding these amendments and I do not believe there is any need for me to do so.

However, I do want to emphasise the importance of clause 1, which enables the Director of Transport, who is a member of the board, to designate any senior officer in the national Department of Transport as a substitute when unable to attend board meetings. This will not only assist the quorum, but will also ensure that the department is represented at all meetings of the board.

The Minister has emphasised the importance of clause 1(b) and has pointed out the cumbersome procedure, under normal circumstances, involved in actually appointing members to the board. The overall objective of the Bill is therefore to ensure a properly functioning board. This is made more important in view of the imminent report of the Satchwell Commission of Inquiry. There have been several vacancies on the board over the past few months, making it difficult for the board to function.

Section 9 of the principal Act provides for a procedure to appoint members to the board every three years. There is no provision for the filling of vacancies. The section 9 procedure would be far too long and costly to be used for this purpose. This Bill, therefore, gives the Minister power to fill such vacancies.

We understand the concerns of some opposition parties regarding the authority given to the Minister to appoint members to the board when occasional vacancies occur. The identity of those parties will no doubt be revealed when they speak a little later on. However, their concerns are exaggerated and invalid.

Firstly, the Minister is required to take into account, when applicable, the categories of persons to be appointed, as listed in the Act. Secondly, he may only fill a vacancy for the unexpired portion of the previous member’s term of office. Thirdly, and most importantly, the Satchwell Commission’s report, once tabled, will give us the opportunity of a thorough examination of the nature of road accident compensation and the structure of the institutions that are best suited to deliver such compensation.

It makes no sense at all to engage in a time-consuming process of filling vacancies on the board or to begin a long drawn-out exercise of restructuring the board before the report of the Satchwell Commission. Yes, this report is now overdue, but I have no doubt that, once published, it is going to be a world-class piece of work that will give us the basis for an extensive review of the whole system.

It does make sense to ensure that the Road Accident Fund continues to operate effectively. This requires the board to be properly constituted at all times. That is why the Minister must be in a position to fill vacancies as they arise.

The ANC supports the amendments. [Applause.]

Mr S B FARROW: Chairperson, the Bill before us, although minor in nature, can play a major part in ensuring good corporate governance in a fund which has, for many years being dogged by poor management, corruption and a lack of direction. I trust that the Minister, having now been given this power to appoint vacancies to the board in exceptional cases where resignations occur during a term of office, will ensure that only competent candidates are considered and that the parliamentary portfolio committee is kept informed about such appointments.

The fund is technically insolvent and costs the petrol consumers of our country some R2 billion annually or approximately 16 cents for every litre we put in our tanks. The objectives of the fund and how it helps out victims of those injured in motor vehicle accidents is not questionable, but the methods of how claimants are paid out and what these victims have to go through to process their claims and the fact that some 48% of claims go into attorneys’ costs and administration is unacceptable.

A recent question put to the Minister revealed that the fund has paid out R134 million to attorneys and counsel for the financial year ending 30 April 2001. Due to the fact that many of these claims were corrupt, the Minister quite rightly instituted a commission of inquiry into the fund by Judge Satchwell in October 1998. The public had great expectations. Yet, some four years later, we still have not had sight of that report despite a number of extensions. A recent media report which came from the Minister’s office saying that it would be out by the end of August has not materialised.

I trust that this report will not be subjected to any further delay. The terms of reference given to Judge Satchwell were clear and one would have thought that with numerous previous White Papers and recommendations coming out of investigations and from the Government, a clear strategy would have, by now, emerged as to how the fund should be managed, who qualifies and how the payment is made.

Similar funds operate in many countries and one does not have to reinvent the wheel. A simple user-friendly claim system needs to be put in place, the claim needs to be finalised in the way of payments, and it is then approved accordingly. Yet, it appears that the fund has become the milking cow for the minority of unscrupulous attorneys and doctors bent on maximising their costs through unnecessary litigation, corruption and excessive claims to the detrimental effect on the poor and unfortunate victim.

It is gratifying, therefore, that the at last the RAF management and board has started to bring these crooks to book, and the SA Law Society has commenced a campaign to accredit the attorneys who have clients at heart of this nature. The recent arrest of 49 people for operating a fraudulent scheme to siphon off millions of rands from the fund in the Eastern Cape and the R20 million fraud involving two East Rand lawyers appears to be the tip of the iceberg, and should be encouraged and supported.

The DA has consistently called for investigations of this nature to be undertaken by the special investigation unit, and we will continue to do so until such time that all the fraud and corruption has been eradicated from the fund. These investigations could not have happened sooner, and the RAF Board has some serious business ahead of them. Now that they are free of conflicts of interest and a new CEO is running the fund, the public is now awaiting an improved performance and the assurance that the public moneys are better managed.

However, the process can only begin once the Satchwell report finally reaches Parliament as there is no doubt that further amendments to the Road Accident Fund Act will be forthcoming, after which, hopefully, the fund will be put on a sound financial and management footing.

The DA will, needless to say, support this amendment. [Applause.]

Mr J H SLABBERT: Chairperson, I must really thank the Minister for his very clear message about why this Bill is necessary. It is common knowledge that thousands of accidents occur on South Africa’s roads every year. These accidents affect many thousands of our citizens through loss of life and serious injuries. They also take a heavy toll on our economy, but the effects of road accidents are most keenly felt by the thousands who are seriously injured through loss of employment, productivity and normal life.

The Road Accident Fund, therefore, plays a vital role in compensating the victims of road accidents for the losses they have suffered. It is in the public and national interest that the RAF function at the highest possible level of efficiency as it is not only funded by taxpayers’ money, but also ensures that victims receive equitable and timeous compensation. But the RAF is, in many respects, a critically ill organisation. I do not think the Minister will deny that. I will return to this issue later.

The Bill before us today has three main objectives. First, it enables the Minister of Transport to fill an occasional vacancy on the RAF Board by appointing another person for the unexpired portion of the previous member’s three-year term of office. When the Portfolio Committee of Transport debated this issue, my initial stance was that it was unnecessary to give the Minister such powers as an appointment could be made from the existing shortlist of candidates that had already gone through the selection process.

However, after thorough consideration, I now fully support this amendment as it has become clear to my party and I that it would assist in improving the RAF’s performance. The IFP feels that any change that will enable the RAF to operate more effectively for the victims of road accidents is a step in the right direction. The IFP also supports the other two main objectives of the Bill that, firstly, enable the Director General of Transport to designate any other senior officer in the national Department of Transport to act as a substitute on the board, and secondly, that the RAF Board has an appointed membership of at least eight but not more than twelve.

The IFP will, therefore, support the Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill.

Ek kan nie glo dat daar iemand is wat dit nie steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [I cannot believe it that there is someone who does not support it. [Interjections.]

Earlier on, I alluded to the problems being experienced in and by the Road Accident Fund. This is no secret as the allegations of corruption and fraud by the officials of the RAF and professionals deriving work from the fund follow the media headings on a regular basis. There is also, at least, a suspicion that the fund is technically bankrupt. The Government is aware of the problems, as it appointed Judge Satchwell to investigate, but the fact of the matter is that almost four years later, we are still awaiting on the results from Judge Satchwell.

The IFP feels that drastic changes are needed to restore public confidence in the RAF, and we call on the Minister to make those changes as soon as possible. The victims of road accidents deserve that and I know that the Minister will, and he wants to. [Applause.]

Mnr J J NIEMANN: Mnr die Voorsitter, die Minister en die vorige sprekers het ook reeds die posisie van die direkteur-generaal behandel, asook hierdie 11:8-verhouding teenoor die raad, maar ek wil stilstaan by artikel 10(9) van die hoofwet, wat voorsiening maak vir ‘n openbare, deursigtige proses om raadslede aan te stel. Die Minister en al die vorige sprekers het ook daarna verwys.

Die proses neem nou ‘n aanvang deurdat die Minister ‘n uitnodiging vir nominasies publiseer, gevolg deur die publikasie van ‘n lys van genomineerdes, die instel van die keurkomitee van vyf lede, waarin hierdie twee Huise van die Parlement verteenwoordig word, openbare onderhoude met die genomineerdes en, ten slotte, doen die keurkomitee aanbevelings aan die Minister.

Ewe skielik is die proses te tydrowend om te volg. Nou wil die agbare Minister die wet so wysig dat hy homself die drakoniese reg toe-eien om enige vakature of vakatures wat nog mag ontstaan, te vul deur die aanwysing van enige ander persoon in daardie vakante pos, of poste, vir die oorblywende tydperk van daardie vakature. Dit beteken die agb Minister kan in die loop van die tydperk wat oor is, twee, drie, vier, vyf, selfs ses raadslede op sy eie aanstel. Gevolglik beteken dit die Minister kan feitlik sy eie persoonlike raad aanstel.

Ek het geprobeer om die agbare Minister tot ander insigte te bring. Ek het daar by hom in die bank gaan sit, en sy antwoord was kort en kragtig: basta. Dit is jou demokratiese reg om te verskil. Maar natuurlik is dit my demokratiese reg om te verskil. [Tussenwerpsels]. Ek wil die agbare Minister sê dit is ‘n vergryp teen die sogenaamde demokrasie waaroor die Regering so liries raak. As gevolg van hierdie vergryp van deursigtigheid en gebrek aan demokratiese beginsels kan die Nuwe NP die wysigings nie steun nie.

Die vorige spreker het gesê hy kan nie glo dat iemand nie die wysigings steun nie. Maar kom ons staan ‘n bietjie stil by daardie punt. By die heel eerste vergadering wat ons gehou het, was die portefeuljekomitee eenparig in hul besluite om nie hierdie reg uit te brei na die Minister nie. Eenparig ! Daar was nie een ou wat verskil het daarmee nie. Twee, drie vergaderings daarna - maar nou moet ek sê daar het baie dinge in die tussentyd met die voorsitter gebeur - toe hou hulle weer vergadering en wat gebeur toe? Toe kom die Minister ons tegemoet en hy sê hy wil op ‘n slag hoogstens twee mense vervang wanneer vakatures ontstaan. Toe kom die DP en die IVP en hulle maak beswaar teen die twee, en nou stem hulle daarvoor, noudat dit baie erger is as die uitbreiding van net die twee. Ek dink dit is ongelooflik wat hier aangaan. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J J NIEMANN: Mr Chairman, the Minister and the previous speakers have also already dealt with the position of the director-general, as well as the 11:8 ratio in relation to the council, but I want to dwell on article 10(9) of the main Act which makes provision for a public, transparent process for the appointment of councillors. The Minister and all the previous speakers also referred to this.

The process is initiated by the Minister publishing an invitation for nominations, followed by the publication of a list of nominees, the establishment of the selection committee of five members, on which these two Houses of Parliament are represented, public interviews with the nominees, and finally the selection committee makes recommendations to the Minister.

Suddenly the process is too time-consuming to follow. Now the hon the Minister wants to amend the Act in such a way that he appropriates for himself the Draconian right to fill any vacancy or vacancies that might still eventuate by the appointment of any other person to that vacant post or posts for the remaining period of that vacancy. This means that the hon the Minister can, during the period that is left, appoint two, three, four, five, or even six councillors on his own. Therefore, thus means that the Minister can just about appoint his own personal council.

I have tried to bring the hon the Minister to other insights. I sat with him on the bench and his answer was short and sweet: that’s that. It is one, democratic right to differ. But naturally it is my democratic right to differ. [Interjections.] I want to tell the hon the Minister that it is an offence against the so-called transparency about which the Government waxes so lyrical. As a result of this offence against transparency and lack of democratic principles, the New NP cannot support the amendments.

The previous speaker said that he could not believe that anybody had a problem supporting the amendments. But let us dwell a little on that point. At the very first meeting we held, the portfolio committee was unanimous about not extending this power to the Minister. Unanimous! There was not one person who differed with that view. Two or three meetings thereafter - but now I have to say that many things happened in the meantime to the chairperson - a meeting was once again held, and what happened then? Then the Minister accommodated us and he said he wanted to replace at most two people at a time if vacancies should arise. The DP and the IFP then objected against the two, but now they are voting in favour thereof, now that it is much worse than the extension of just the two. I think that what is happening here is unbelievable. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members the Road Accident Fund Bill before us aims to render the representation of the National Department of Transport on the board of the Road Accident Fund more flexible by including the DG or his or her rep. It also aims to limit the minimum number of appointed members of the board from eight to 12.

Clause 1(c) and (d) of the Bill facilitates and enables the Minister to fill an occasional vacancy by appointing any other person to serve on the board for the unexpired portion of the previous member’s three-year term of office. We therefore welcome and support these efforts as this fund was established for the purpose of paying compensation in accordance with the Act for loss or damage wrongfully caused by the driving of motor vehicles. The constitution of the board is governed by section 10 of the principal Act. It is therefore the responsibility of the Minister to ensure that this fund has a board that exercises overall authority and control over financial position, operation and management of this fund.

We therefore support this Bill.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, the board of the Road Accident Fund exercises overall authority and control and the financial position, operation and management of the Road Accident Fund is subject to the powers of the Minister of Transport.

The Fund is undoubtedly facing a financial crisis and had an actuarial deficit of R13,3 billion at the end of April 2001. This represents outstanding claims that will have to be paid in future. We understand that the situation is deteriorating as claims were increasing faster than increases in the fuel levy which finances the fund. This, together with the large-scale fraud by both outsiders logging false claims and the fund’s own staff processing or inflating claims falsely, contributed to the fund’s problems.

In view of the above, the amendments were to be welcomed as they made provision for a more streamlined board by reducing the minimum number of board members. The ACDP supports these amendments and we trust that the board will successfully overcome the severe challenges it faces and to provide the South African public with a cost-effective body to pay compensation for injuries sustained in a motor vehicle collision.

Mr J P CRONIN: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, as we have heard, three small amendments have been proposed to the Road Accident Fund Act. They have been brought to Parliament, because, basically, the Road Accident Fund Board has not been quorating. There are several reasons for this failure to quorate. However, in essence, the problem stems from the fact that there has been considerably public scrutiny, including from this Parliament, of the Road Accident Fund.

Among the questions that have been raised have been concerns about a potential conflict of interest within the board itself. There were members of the board who at least potentially - one is not saying actually' but potentially’ - through their professional private activities, could have found themselves on both sides of the street simultaneously, taking on the fund on behalf of claimants and yet also providing leadership to the fund at the same time.

Members of the portfolio committee raised the above matters quite forcefully at our meeting with the Road Accident Fund Board earlier this year in May. At about the same time, and I am not saying that it was necessarily connected, a number of board members resigned from the board without necessarily conceding that they were involved themselves in any wrongdoing. These particular resignations and some others highlighted unintended inflexibilities in the original Road Accident Fund Act in terms of the functioning of the board and in terms of filling vacancies, hence these amendments that have come to us. It is the third amendment that has particularly caused some debate in the portfolio committee, namely the amendment allowing the Minister to fast- track replacement appointments in the case of vacancies. In the existing Act, the board is appointed through a fairly complex process. The Minister provides a selection committee, which is basically constituted of members of the NA and NCOP, with a short list and we then conduct public interviews of these short-listed candidates and we summit to the Minister a shorter list for his final selection.

Some of the hon members have participated in this process and we think that it is a good one. It enables us to ask questions in public, on the record, about potential conflicts of interest, for instance. It further enables us as parliamentarians to contribute to transforming the character of the board and therefore the fund. It also, as the hon the Minister himself says, protects the Minister from any potential allegations. The final selection will, after all, have travelled through an open public interview process. However, there is one drawback. It can be a very lengthy process.

Those who are cynical about parliaments, and they might be in the media, should have come to watch the portfolio committee, because in the process of considering these amendments our proceedings overturned all the stereotypes about political parties in this Parliament. Mr Farrow … [Interjections.] No! No! I am about to offer a bouquet. Mr Farrow of the DP immediately expressed his understanding for the hon the Minister’s concerns and accepted the amendment. So who says that the DP is comprised of kneejerk oppositionists? It is a very unfair allegation. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr Niemann of the New NP has consistently expressed his party’s opposition to the proposed amendment. He has been very consistent in this. He has argued that the appointment of substitutes to a board, especially the board of a controversial public entity like the Road Accident Fund, needs to be vetted in public. Who said that the New NP is neatly in the pocket of the ANC Government? [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr Slabbert of the IFP was, yes, predictably unpredictable, and in this he was perhaps true to the stereotype about his party, i.e. that it is unpredictably or predictably unpredictable. But the stereotype says that his party is always destructive in this predictable unpredictability and that would be extremely unfair to Mr Slabbert. He was incredibly constructive and helped us to make progress.

What about the ANC? [Interjections.] Well, there were several different views in the ANC. As the ANC, we appreciate the somewhat lengthy but transparent appointment process and we are reluctant to depart from that, albeit for temporary midterm substitutions. We debated various possibilities as the ANC, for example, capping the number of substitute appointments, whilst some argued for using the extra names left over from the short list. We debated these things in the ANC study group and indeed in the portfolio committee as ANC members. Who says that the ANC is a monolithic entity, intolerant of internal debate or even public debate? Not me! [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.] We proved it in the portfolio committee! [Interjections.]

In the end, the ANC, and as a majority in the committee, agreed to amend the legislation to enable the Minister to fast-track appointments when vacancies occur in midterm only, not at any other time. We agreed as a committee that these amendments should be seen in the wider context of the Road Accident Fund that will have to undergo major transformations in the coming years. We are awaiting, with interest and some impatience, and here I agree with Mr Farrow, the final publication of the much-anticipated Road Accident Fund Commission Report.

Finally, we would like to commend the existing Road Accident Fund Board and its CEO, Mr Kgomongwe. They are operating in very difficult circumstances and we know that they have had difficulties. However, despite these challenges, the board has been giving leadership to the fund. The spates of arrests that others have mentioned are one indication of this. It is a sign that the board wants to clean up the act of the fund and we would like to assure them of our full support in this matter.

The ANC, in its various guises, supports the Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, hon members, my approach to the Road Accident Fund and its problems is the following: First, even if the fund had worked optimally, it appears to have outlived its usefulness and the reason for that is the many limitations of the fund. Many countries, as hon members have pointed out, have moved in different directions. For example, there are countries that have moved away from the fault-based system. We still have the fault-based system.

One of the reasons for the large amount of litigation and millions and millions being spent on it is the denial by the fund that the insured was negligent, and then a battle ensues because a claimant claims on the basis of negligence. The fund then says that the insured was not negligent and then the matter goes to court. The court has to decide, and that involves lengthy litigation, large amount of expenses, a great deal of pain for everyone. The question is that whether time has not come for us to move away from that kind of system.

Secondly, certain claims are kept. Passengers claims in taxis, for example, are kept. Some people says it is unconstitutional, yet it is there. Thirdly, there have been many problems within the management, within the fund itself, problems which the current board and the ceo have done their best to deal with. As the hon Cronin has indicated, they have done sterling work. I want to indicate that, in the efforts of the board to expose fraud and corruption including maladministration, it has always enjoyed my 100% support. I meet with the chair of the board, the chief executive officer, and I encourage them to deal with the matter. I can tell hon members that it is not very easy for them. Without going into details, there are syndicates involved that operate in a highly sophisticated way. When they see their source of funding threatened, all kinds of things happen, including threats. So they operate in a very difficult environment.

That is why the work of the Satchwell Commission is so important. But as hon members have pointed out, the Satchwell Commission has been going on and on. I sympathise with Judge Satchwell, even though I am also impatient. I share the views of hon members that we must get that report as soon as possible.

I sympathise with Judge Satchwell because she is a perfectionist. And I know the work that she has done. I spoke to her yesterday and her work has been completed. It is the question of putting together the report, getting it to typesetters and doing all those practical things to make sure that that report is perfect. There are lots of practical things to be done.

Judge Satchwell assures me that she is giving urgent attention to those and we are hoping that, over the next month, we will see the end of that saga and we will have a three-volume report, because it is a three-volume report that she will be representing to us. I think that that report is going to present us with an opportunity of reviewing the fund entirely, and for us then to emerge with a fund which will serve the best interests of the country in the new kind of situation.

I am not going to comment on the amendments again as hon members have done so. I want to thank everybody, including the hon Niemann. I want to say to hon members that he always takes the trouble, besides being vibrant, he comes over. He talks to me and tells me that he is going to oppose this, or that he is going to support that, whatever the case may be. And I welcome this interaction between ourselves. Even to him I want to say thanks. But I appeal to the House to support the Bill.

Dr W A ODENDAAL: Chairperson, I raise on point of order. Before the hon the Minister steps down, will he take a question?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, will you take a question?

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, he has asked very nicely and I will take the question.

The CHAIPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Proceed, hon member.

Dr W A ODENDAAL: Chairperson, seeing that the Minister is going to appoint members to the board all by himself, will he take the responsibility if that appointed member screws up?

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I did not want to discuss this issue. There appears to be, in some quarters, a suspicion of the executive. Everything that the executive does must be so scrutinised that one cannot trust the members of the executive.

I want the hon member to know that there are many other things that we do where we take decisions, and many people that we appoint to various positions. And I think that the executive is responsible for administration not Parliament. I do believe that Parliament must scrutinise and monitor, but I am very confident that, in any democracy, the executive has a role to perform and we are essentially talking now about executive functions.

But in so far as filling vacancies are concerned, I am not asking for a blank cheque to appoint members of the board. We are dealing with occasional vacancies which may occur. In that kind of situation, I want to ensure that the board continues to function effectively. I put the proposal to the House, the House has debated it and members of the different have debated it, and the think that that is the best way to go. And I am very grateful to those who have taken that position. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded. The House divided:

AYES - 227: Ainslie, A R; Andrew, K M; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Blanche, J P I; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Ellis, M J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; George, M E; Gerber, P A J; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Heine, R J; Hendricks, L B; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlangwana, N L; Hogan, B A; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishiva, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lowe, C M; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madlala- Routledge, N C; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlangu-Nkabine, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mutsila, I; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Omar, A M; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, S; Radebe, B A; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Schalkwyk, P J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Sekgobela, P S; Semple, J A; September, C C; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Slabbert, J H; Smith, V G; Solomon, I G; Sonjica, B P; Sono, B N; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshivhase, T J; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vezi, T E; Waters, M; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 20: Bakker, D M; Blaas, A; Doman, W P; Durand, J; Geldenhuys, B L; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Herandien, C B; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Niemann, J J; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rhoda, R T; Schippers, J; Simmons, S; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Wyk, A (Anna).

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

                      PLANNING PROFESSION BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs thereon)

Report adopted without debate.

The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Bill as previously passed by the National Assembly be agreed to.

Motion agreed to. Planning Professions Bill accordingly agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:55. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 12  September  2002:  To  be
     submitted to President of the Republic for assent:


     (i)     Planning Profession Bill [B 76B - 2001] (National  Assembly
          - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The Strategic Plan of the Human Rights Commission for 2000-2005.

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (1)    Memorandum of Understanding  among  Member  Governments  of  the
     Eastern and Southern African Anti-Money Laundering  Group  and  the
     Republic of South Africa, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of  the
     Constitution, 1996.


 (2) Explanatory Memorandum to the Memorandum of Understanding.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  South  African  Bureau  of
 Standards for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
 the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 Report of the Independent Electoral Commission regarding the Management
 and Administration of the Represented Political Parties' Fund for 2001-
 2002, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
 Statements of the Represented Political Parties' Fund for 2001-2002 [RP
 147-2002].

1. The Minister of Communications:

 Report and Financial Statements of Sentech (Pty) Limited for 2001-2002.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker: (1) Report of the Public Service Commission on Risk Management: A Provincial Perspective.

 (2)    Toward Sustainability: Implementing Agenda  21  -  Parliamentary
     Declaration on the occasion of  the  World  Summit  on  Sustainable
     Development, Johannesburg 29-30 August 2002.

CREDA INSERT - PARLIAMENTARY MEETING ON THE OCCASION OF THE WORLD SUMMIT ON SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT