MONDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2002 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mrs M P COETZEE-KASPER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism assisted 227 small and medium enterprises through the International Tourism Marketing Assistance Scheme in 2001-02;

(2) further notes that this assistance targeted historically disadvantaged individuals and provided them with opportunities to market and profile products and services at international exhibitions;

(3) believes that this reflects the ANC Government’s endeavour to transform the tourism industry and create jobs through tourism; and

(4) commends the ANC Government for transforming this sector so that it begins to reflect the population demography of our country.

[Applause.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) advises President Mbeki to decline the invitation to visit Iraq as a guest of President Saddam Hussein;

(2) believes such a visit is inappropriate and could damage US-SA relations and jeopardise the benefits achieved from the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act;

(3) insists that the Iraq situation must be handled within the framework of international law and by means of multilateral operations; and

(4) states that the SA Government should use its influence to persuade Iraq to comply with UN resolutions and encourage the UN to speed up the weapons inspection process so that the issue of Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction can be resolved without further delay.

Prince N E ZULU: Chair, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) welcomes the proposal by the Employment Conditions Commission in respect of the wage systems for farm workers in South Africa as this sector is the most vulnerable to exploitation and some workers earn as little as R100 per month;

(2) recognises the intentions of the commission to treat workers in poorer areas separately from those in affluent areas in terms of wage packages and accommodation;

(3) recommends that the department’s viewpoint be taken into cognisance by the commission in order to strike a single determination for all farm workers in South Africa; and

(4) calls on Labour’s big minds to aim higher than the present wage levels in order to liberate farm workers from the scourge of starvation wages they have endured all their lives.

Mr S K LOUW: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the development plans of the Coega project have taken into consideration the preservation of the environment;

(2) further notes that a plan has been developed to preserve bird life in the area;

(3) believes that -

   (a)  this reflects the ANC Government's commitment to preserving  our
       environment through sustainable development; and


   (b)  is a further demonstration of  our  Government's  commitment  to
       implementing the resolutions of the World Summit on  Sustainable
       Development; and

(4) commends the ANC Government for embarking on programmes aimed at facilitating sustainable development and preserving the environment.

[Applause.]

Mr R S SCHOEMAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) takes note of the overwhelming success of the federal congress of the New NP that was held this past weekend in Johannesburg; [Interjections.];

(2) in particular notes the strong hope-creating and direction-giving speech of the national leader of the New NP, Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, as well as the positive reconciliatory address of the national chairperson of the ANC, Minister Mosiuoa Lekota; and

(3) further notes the excellent attendance at, and spirit of, the congress, which clearly showed that the New NP is on the march again and is determined, together with all other South Africans of goodwill, to make South Africa win.

[Applause.]

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House - (1) notes that the reports of the Bulube Independent Commission of Inquiry in the Eastern Cape, the Moleleki Commission of Inquiry in the Free State, the Mabiletsa Commission of Inquiry in the province of the North West and the Ralushai Commission of Inquiry in the Province of Limpopo, which were appointed by the respective premiers in these provinces to investigate the disputes, claims and legitimacy of traditional leadership, were not released by the premiers and tabled in Parliament by the Minister for Provincial and Local Government;

(2) is appalled at the refusal of the premiers to release the reports in spite of the constitutional provision that all organs of state are obliged to furnish the required information upon request by any person; and

(3) is aware that some traditional leaders have already resorted to legal action in an effort to force the premiers and the Minister to release the reports … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr J BENJAMIN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that South Africa’s corporate sector has donated more than R400 million to Cida City campus;

(2) further notes that this institution aims to increase the number of black business graduates;

(3) believes that the aims of this institution are in line with Government’s commitment to transforming the economy to benefit all South Africans;

(4) further believes that this institution will contribute significantly to transforming the corporate sector so as to reflect the population demography of South Africa; and

(5) welcomes the R400 million contribution made by the corporate sector to this institution. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  a British couple was charged R700 for a R14 ride in a Cape  Town
       minibus from Camps Bay to central Cape Town this week;


   (b)  three other South Africans in the taxi failed  to  intervene  on
       behalf of the tourists; and
   (c)  the tourists complained to Cape Town Tourism who are  attempting
       to have the money repaid;

(2) calls upon the Government and the tourism industry to blacklist any service provider which overcharges tourists, thus creating a negative image of South Africa; and

(3) calls upon all South Africans to be vigilant and to intervene when tourists are being overcharged in such a brazen manner.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the issue of the authority and role of traditional leaders is long overdue for attendance and final settlement;

(2) observes the PAC view that this is not a matter that can continue to be delayed and handled without the involvement of traditional leaders themselves and experts on this cultural aspects of African life;

(3) believes that -

   (a)  the question  of  traditional  leaders  can  never  be  resolved
       without amending sections 211 and 212 of the Constitution; and


   (b)  any law that claims to  bestow  rights  on  traditional  leaders
       outside  the  Constitution  will  not  achieve  a   satisfactory
       solution and will only cheat them; and

(4) appeals to the present Government not to seek the solution to the problem of traditional leaders through Eurocentric values, but to look at how countries such as Ghana, Uganda and Malaysia dealt with this important national issue.

[Time expired.] [Interjections.]

Ms N M TWALA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that South Africa, Malawi and Swaziland have embarked on a joint programme to curb the spread of malaria;

(2) believes that this demonstrates the commitment of the ANC Government to fighting life-threatening diseases and to providing better health care for all our people; and

(3) congratulates the ANC Government on embarking on the joint initiative with other countries in the region to curb the spread of malaria.

[Applause.]

Mr N J CLELLAND-STOKES: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House -

(1) notes with approval that the DA has launched a nationwide campaign to promote a basic income grant;

(2) notes further that the grant will benefit all persons earning under R7 500 a year;

(3) recognises that, although the amount is not large, it will help the poorest of the poor to feed their families and it is affordable for the Government; and

(4) expresses the hope that the ANC will change its policy and accept the DA proposal by instituting a basic income grant without further delay. [Applause.]

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

 That the House -


 (1)    notes with concern the sentence given to a 39-year-old  Richwood
     man charged with sexually molesting an eight-year-old  girl  during
     2000 and 2001;


 (2)    further notes that the accused has been sentenced to 16 hours of
     community service a month for three  years  and  to  six  years  in
     prison, conditionally suspended for five years;


 (3)    believes that the accused was given a lenient  sentence,  taking
     into consideration the number of paedophile cases  in  the  country
     over the past few years; and


 (4)    appeals to the justice system to review  its  sentences  with  a
     view to effectively addressing this problem of the sexual abuse  of
     children.

Mr R P Z VAN DEN HEEVER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the SA Police Service has arrested Mr Thomas Vogel Vorster for his involvement in a plot to overthrow the Government;

(2) further notes that the SAPS has also released a list containing names of people who are positively linked to a spate of bombings in Soweto recently;

(3) believes that the SAPS has made an important breakthrough in this investigation and will bring the perpetrators of these criminal acts to book; (4) welcomes the arrest of all those involved in a plot to overthrow the Government;

(5) expresses its support for the SAPS on the progress made in this case; and

(6) calls on all South Africans to work with the police in ensuring that these fugitives are brought to book.

[Applause.]

Mr J W LE ROUX: Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek met die volgende sitting van die Huis namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis-

(1) daarvan kennis neem dat die Nuwe NP Kaapstad gelukwens met sy status as die nommer een toerismebestemmming ter wêreld;

(2) glo die inwoners van Kaapstad moet sorg dra dat hierdie prestasie hulle tot nog groter suksesse sal aanspoor;

(3) meen dat toerisme in Suid-Afrika benadeel word deur gewetenlose swendelaars wat besoekers skaamteloos uitbuit;

(4) daarvan kennis neem dat ‘n Britse egpaar verlede week R700 moes betaal vir ‘n taxirit wat normaalweg R14 kos; en

(5) ‘n beroep op die toerisme-owerheid doen om onmiddellik die skuldiges wat aan hulle bekend is, te vervolg en sorg te dra dat die betrokke egpaar vir hul skade vergoed word. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House - (1) notes that the New NP congratulates Cape Town on its status as the number one tourist destination in the world;

(2) believes that the residents of Cape Town should make sure that this achievement urges them on to even greater success;

(3) feels that tourism in South Africa is being harmed by unscrupulous swindlers who shamelessly exploit visitors;

(4) notes that last week a British couple had to pay R700 for a taxi ride which normally costs R14; and

(5) appeals to the tourism authorities to immediately prosecute the guilty parties who are known to them, and ensure that the couple concerned will be compensated for their loss.]

Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes that the UDM differs with the comments made by the Group of 63 on the Soweto bombings, because the UDM believes there is no excuse for those despicable acts;

(2) believes that the only thing that the Group of 63 succeeded in doing was painting all Afrikaners into a corner with them, and that their comments seem like nothing more than the justification of senseless violence by a small group of confused criminals who produce academic excuses to justify their actions;

(3) resolves that the solution for South Africa’s problems can only be found in non racial teamwork; and

(4) believes that the Group of 63 should become part of mainstream politics.

              CONGRATULATIONS TO SA WOMEN'S HOCKEY TEAM
               AND SA CRICKET TEAM ON THEIR VICTORIES

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) congratulates the South African women’s hockey team which beat one of the top teams in the world, the Netherlands, by winning the series 2- 1;

(2) recognises the significance of their achievement and the hard work that has brought them this victory;

(3) congratulates the South African cricket team which clinched an emphatic win over Sri Lanka in the first test of the series, beating them by an innings and 64 runs; and

(4) believes that the Proteas are on track to triumph in the World Cup tournament to be held in South Africa in 2003.

Agreed to.

          NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

Ms G L MAHLANGU-NKABINDE: Chairperson, it was during the period of 21 to 25 May 2002 when 800 young children between the ages of 10 and 12 gathered in British Columbia, Canada, for an international environmental conference in co-operation with the United Nations Environment Programme.

South Africa was also represented, and not only was the representative from the North West province, but our 10-year-old was a tiny little girl called Kefiloe from Mailakhang School. It excites me particularly to witness the progress of the girl-child today. Kefiloe went on a plane for the first time. Apparently this was also the first time she saw Johannesburg International Airport, and she came back more dynamic and committed in her fight against the degradation of the environment.

She appeals to those of us who can legislate not to forget the Bill of Rights in our Constitution, and not to forget that she is a future parent who needs to bring up her children in a clean and harmless environment which hon members and I have made the birthright of all South Africans. We dare not fail her.

I, Kefiloe and many members in this House still live in poverty, but unsustainable means of addressing poverty will never help us. Eradicating poverty is the greatest challenge facing the world today and an indispensable requirement for sustainable development, particularly for developing countries such as South Africa. Our country cannot, therefore, afford the unsustainable exploitation of its environment.

We need to ensure that our environment is protected at all times in order to encourage economic development and poverty eradication. The ANC has, with the tabling and subsequent enactment of the National Environmental Management Act, Nema, clearly illustrated the weight it lends to the proper protection and management of the environment, as prescribed in our Constitution.

Nema has, in many ways, altered environmental protection in South Africa for the better. Its sweeping powers and far-reaching influence have already averted many a potential environmental disaster. However, as can be expected from such a comprehensive, involved Act, it was by no means intended to be the last and absolute oracle.

Although it is envisaged that all environmental legislation will ultimately be consolidated in Nema, its growth - as should be the case in its teething years within our young and vibrant democracy - is by no means complete.

This House today plays witness to the first amending Bill to this cornerstone of South African legislation. This Bill clarifies beyond reasonable doubt Government’s intention to protect our environment zealously.

Today few people would argue the interdependence and importance of a harmonious osmosis between conservation and human development. Long gone are the days when fences around conservation areas were erected to keep people out rather than protected species in.

The protection and conservation of our natural treasures should at all times take place against the background of making them accessible to as many South Africans as possible in order to derive pride, pleasure and personal growth from them.

However, having said that, the fundamental difference between exploitation for positive, constructive purposes and the destructive exploitation of nature should always be borne in mind.

I am proud to announce that there has been consensus among all parties in the portfolio committee on the adoption of this Bill without amendments, and I am very proud of the portfolio committee in that regard.

Government has a constitutional obligation to guard against destructive forms of exploitation of our natural resources. One of the principles of sustainable development, namely ``Some for all forever’’ should always apply if we are to ensure that our future generations are afforded the opportunity to enjoy our God-given natural resources.

South Africa is host to 3 000 kilometres of arguably the most beautiful and pristine coastline in the world. Its enormous tourism potential has again been underlined by the fact that South Africa has been identified as the fastest growing tourist destination globally.

However, as the House is well aware, our real interest does not lie in accolades like that one, but much more in what this translates into in real terms for those who have been deprived of so much for far too long.

I must pause to have some water. [Interjections.] With the experience I have, I can time my speeches very well. Hon members must not worry.

The potential to generate income for people in deep rural areas contributes significantly to restoring a sense of self-worth and dignity to many who have given up on ever seeing their impoverished lives changes for the better, and far outweighs fancy titles and flashy accolades.

It is our obligation to turn this potential into real jobs for our people and to ensure the improvement of their lives for the better. We cannot allow the environment to be exploited for the pleasure of the affluent members of our society and to the detriment of those in need.

It is for this reason that Government has been urging communities to join hands in partnerships aimed at realising the vision of a sustainable environment that provides ``Some for all forever’’.

The success of Government’s efforts in fulfilling this constitutional obligation is critically dependent on such partnerships. This will make little Kefiloe very proud.

Coming from a history of exclusion and nepotism, any argument against the protection of the environment is an argument in favour of selfish arrogance for which there is no place in our country today. It is my pleasure, therefore, to report to the House that South Aricans are increasingly heeding Government’s call to join in the fight for environmental protection.

A case in point is the Cleanest Town Competition which was launched by the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism last year and which saw an increasing number of people taking an interest in their environment and helping to clean their cities and towns.

November has been declared National Environment Month, again with the aim of encouraging South Africans to forge a closer relationship with the environment, while highlighting the socioeconomic benefits of environmental protection and management.

The national Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and provincial governments are hosting various activities all around the country. I would like to urge our people to join these activities and begin to take individual responsibility for their environment, for their own sake and for that of future generations.

The spirit and context of the National Environmental Management Act have been very clear from the outset: to protect our common environmental heritage in order to facilitate a harmonious existence between man and nature to the ultimate benefit of both.

I therefore trust that this House will support the National Environmental Management Amendment Bill unanimously. [Applause.]

Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, the purpose of this Bill is to remove any uncertainty which might exist as to the Minister’s authority to introduce measures for the prevention of environmental degradation under the National Environmental Management Act.

The Bill has in some circles become known as ``the 4 X 4 Bill’’. The reason for this is because of the controversy which has arisen over the Minister’s stated intention of enacting legislation through Nema to control the access of off-road vehicles to marine environments.

This, of course, is not the only restricting piece of legislation which will, in due course, be introduced through Nema in order to prohibit, restrict or control activities which are likely to impact negatively on South Africa’s precious environment. It is, however, a restriction that has caused a great deal of concern and anger amongst those who have become accustomed to free access to beaches in their 4 X 4 vehicles.

Much of the opposition to the proposed restrictions has arisen as a result of the misconception that there will be a blanket ban on access to all beaches. This is, of course, not the case. Provision, in certain instances, will be made for access under strictly controlled conditions. The reckless destruction of our beaches by irresponsible elements in our society must be stopped. All true conservationists should welcome this development.

The DA supports this Bill as it will support any legislation which advances acceptable and reasonable measures to preserve our irreplaceable and fragile natural environment. [Applause.]

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Chairperson, hon members, this Bill seeks to amend the principal act, the National Environmental Management Act, in order to provide for measures to prohibit, restrict or control activities which are likely to have a detrimental effect on the environment.

The IFP will support the amendment, but we want to raise the issue of the St Lucia wetland. The St Lucia wetland is a rural region, well known for its tropical natural features. It is a World Heritage Site with ecological diversity and scenic beauty. The wetland has the attraction of ecotourism and recreational fishing, drawing a substantial number of seasonal visitors each year, but the region is also characterised by poverty and unemployment.

The issue of a 4 X 4 ban in this area is high on the agenda. Currently, this has affected both the users of 4 X 4 vehicles and those residing in the area who get part-time jobs from the users of the 4 X 4s.

Hon members will wonder why I wanted to give this background information.

Okokuqala ngifisa ukusho ukuthi abantu laphaya bakhathazekile ngalokhu. I- IFP iyakweseka ukuchitshiyelwa kwalo mthetho. Kodwa sifuna ukunikeza isendlalo ngokwenza laphaya. Zintathu izinto, uMnyango ilungiselela ukuba kuvikeleke imvelo. Kulungile, sonke siyakuvuma lokho, imvelo ayivikelwe ngayo yonke indlela. Kodwa-ke kukhona laba bantu abayizivakashi ezifika ngama-four-by-four, bazokwenza noma yikuphi abakuzele, okungaba ukudoba noma yini enye laphaya eSt Lucia, ebesengichazile ukuthi ikhungethwe ububhwa nendlala nakho konke. Okukhulu-ke ukuthi laba abafikayo, abadobi nabazokwenza izinto eziningi besebenzisa ama-four-by-four kule ndawo, bathi kungcono bamuke baye koMaputo bayowasebenzisa khona ngoba khona akunamithetho ebavimbayo. Yebo le ndawo iyiGugu lesizwe ngakho kufanele ivikelwe yimigomo yonke. Kodwa-ke kuhle silusho uvo lwabantu abalushoyo ukuthi bakhala ngani.

Ngithi-ke omunye uzakwethu ebesihambe naye laphaya umhlonishwa uMampe, sahamba naye, abantu bathi thina siyimvelo ngokwethu. Kodwa kuvikeleke izilwane, kwavikeleka izitshalo, thina sengathi umnyango awusiboneleli. Ngakho-ke Ngqongqoshe engizokusho lapha ukuthi abantu bathi nabo bayimvelo. Beyimvelo nje kodwa kuleli gama lokuvikeleka sengathi lisho ukuthi kuvikelwa izilwane, izitshalo, izinyoni kuvikelwa nazo zonke izinto eziphilayo ezikhona, hhayi bona, njengoba bebona sengathi bona basemva basalele kulokhu kuvikeleka esikushoyo.

Okulandelayo ukuthi izivakashi ziyahamba manje seziya koMaputo okusho ukuthi zizoshiya manje kule ndawo yaseSt Lucia workland, zizoshiya abantu nendlala.

Kodwa-ke ngasekugcineni ngifisa ukusho ukuthi … (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Firstly, I would like to say that the people out there are worried. The IFP will support the amendment of this Act, but we want to give background information on what is happening there. There are three things. The department wants to protect the environment. That is fine. We all agree with that. The environment must be protected at all costs, but there are tourists who visit there with 4 X 4s. They come to fish or to do anything they like in St Lucia which, as I explained, is suffering from poverty.

The important thing is that these people who come to fish and to do other things - and with 4 X 4s - are saying that it is better to go to Maputo because there is no restricting legislation there, like here. Yes, St Lucia is a World Heritage Site which must be protected by all the rules, but we should state people’s views as they are presented to us.

We went there with my colleague the hon Mampe. When we got there people said: ``We ourselves are the environment, but it seems as if only animals and plants are protected. It seems as if the department does not care about us.’’ What I am saying here is that people are saying they themselves are the environment. They are the environment, although it seems as if this term refers only to animals, plants, birds and other species, not to them. They feel that they are not afforded the protection we are talking about. Another thing is that tourists are going to Maputo, which means they will leave this area, the St Lucia wetland. They will leave the people in poverty there.]

In conclusion, I would like to say that the environment is a national asset. The coast must be retained as a national asset with the public having the right to access the benefits of the many opportunities provided by the coastal resources. Co-operative government and partnerships between Government, the private sector and civil society must be built in order to ensure that there is co-responsibility of coastal management and to empower stakeholders to participate effectively.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the noise level is very high. If we do not get your co-operation, we shall suspend business, because the noise makes it very difficult for those members who want to listen to the debate. There are too many private meetings going on.

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Voorsitter, die Nuwe NP ondersteun die Wysigingswetsontwerp op Nasionale Omgewingsbestuur. Daar sal nou regsekerheid wees deurdat die Wet uitdruklik voorsiening maak vir maatreëls om aktiwiteite wat waarskynlik die omgewing kan benadeel te verbied, te beperk of te beheer. Die standpunt van die Nuwe NP was deurgaans dat ons nie mag toelaat dat ons strande verder deur voertuie verniel mag word nie.

Die regulasie wat die gebruik van voertuie op strande reguleer is baie duidelik, en daar word voorsiening gemaak vir sport en ontspanningsgebruike met dien verstande dat geen verdere beskadiging op strande geduld sal word nie.

Die vordering wat die afgelope aantal jare op die gebied van natuurbewaring gemaak is, is verblydend en ons behoort almal saam te werk om ons natuurlike erfenis te beskerm. Die Nuwe NP bring hulde aan mense soos dr Anton Rupert, dr Ian Player, Ton Vosloo, groot sakeondernemings, stadsrade, staatsdepartemente en veral Minister Valli Moosa wat groot bydraes gelewer het om natuurbewaring te bevorder.

Daar is talle voorbeelde van individue, veral in die landbougeledere, wat besondere bydraes gelewer het wat bewaring betref. Hierdie bewaringspogings het tot volg dat natuurbewaring in Suid-Afrika sy regmatige status begin kry. Die herstel van ons visbronne, die toename in wildtroppe, die vergroting van ons parke en wildernisgebiede, die aanplanting van inheemse bome en die vordering wat met die bekamping van rommel gemaak word, is baie positief.

Natuurlik is daar nog ernstige probleme, maar belangstelling van die breë publiek in die bewaring van ons erfenis, is ‘n belangrike stap in die regte rigting. Daar is net nie meer plek in Suid-Afrika vir selfsugtige mense wat ons natuur beskadig nie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, the New NP supports the National Environmental Management Amendment Bill. There will now be legal security as the Bill specifically makes provision for measures to forbid, limit or control activities that can probably harm the environment. The position of the New NP has always been that we can not allow our beaches to be destroyed by vechicles any further.

The regulation which regulates the use of vehcicles on beaches is very clear and provision is made for sport and recreational activities, with the provision that no further damage to beaches will be tolerated.

The progress that has been made with regard to nature conservation during the past couple of years, is gladdening and all of us ought to work together to protect our natural heritage. The New NP pays homage to people like Dr Anton Rupert, Dr Ian Player, Ton Vosloo, big business, town councils, government departments and especially Minister Valli Moosa who greatly contributed to the promotion of nature conservation. There are many examples of individuals, especially in the agricultural field, who made particular contributions to conservation. These conservation efforts led to the fact that nature conservation in South Africa is beginning to get the status it deserves. The recovery of our fish resources, the increase in game, die enlargement of our parks and wildernis areas, the cultivation of indigenous trees and the progress that has been made with the fight against litter are very positive.

Of course there still are serious problems, but the general public’s interest in the conservation of our heritage is an important step in the right direction. In South Africa there simply is no more room for selfish people who damage our environment. [Applause.]]

Prof L M MBADI: Chair, the Marine and Coastal Management Programme guides the development and conservation of the marine and coastal environment, and ensures the sustainable utilisation of marine and coastal resources.

Section 24(b) of our Constitution requires that the environment be protected for the benefit of present and future generations through reasonable legislative and other measures. To this end, regulations were promulgated in December 2001 to protect the coastal environment from degradation and to ensure the safety of the people enjoying themselves on the coast. A general ban was imposed on the use of vehicles on beaches for recreational purposes.

It has, however, become necessary to amend the Bill so as to provide for the prohibition, restriction or control of activities which are likely to have a detrimental effect on the environment.

The amendment takes effect retrospectively from the date on which the principal Act took effect, as provided for in terms of section 35(3)(l) of the Constitution.

As a consequence of our protection of the beaches, a number of our beaches have been awarded international blue-flag status. This attests to their quality and boosts local tourism.

Phambili sebe lezendalo nokhenketho! [Forward, Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism!]

The UDM supports the amending Bill. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairman, the advent of the four-wheel drive vehicle has opened up remote and fragile areas that were previously inaccessible. It is imperative that the fragile coastal zone with its rare plants, animals, birds and intertidal marine life is protected. It is for this reason that the ACDP supports this amending Bill.

What I would just like to touch on is the issue related to the retrospectivity of the Bill. Now, a retrospective amendment containing offenses would normally be in breach of section 35(3)(l) of the Constitution, which constitutionally enshrines the legal doctrine nullum crimen sine lege - a person cannot be convicted for an offence that was not an offence at the time it was committed. Consequently, a proviso has been added that the retrospective application of this Act is made subject to section 35(3)(l) to protect those persons.

So, in this regard the ACDP will support this Bill as it makes provision for the doctrine nullum crimen sine lege.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, it is our duty not only to protect our people, but also our environment. Also, by protecting our environment, we would then be protecting our people and, in a way, killing two birds with one stone.

South Africa has a beautiful natural environment, and such beauty needs to be preserved. However, in this day and age technology-driven mechanisms make work easier, abandoning the duties that were previously done by hand.

Though industry has gained extensively through technology, our environment has suffered a lot. The many forms of pollution which our environment is subjected to do not only destroy our natural inhabitants, but are detrimental to the health of all civilisation.

The MF supports the department for putting in place provisions that will protect our environment from degradation. This responsibility, however, stretches beyond Government to all sectors, public and private, and more specifically to the individual.

The MF supports the Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs R A NDZANGA: Chairperson, hon members and hon Minister, we have just concluded the biggest ever conference in Johannesburg, the United Nations World Summit on Sustainable Development.

After a long debate on what sustainable development means, the term sustainable development'' was defined in 1983 by the World Commission on Environment and Development, commonly known as the WCED. The WCED defined sustainable development asmeeting the needs of the present generation without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs’’.

Sustainable development calls for the improvement of the quality of life for all the world’s people, without increasing the depletion of our natural resources beyond the earth’s carrying capacity.

In order to build a sustainable way of life, action is required in the following three areas: one, in economic development and equity; two, in conserving natural resources and the environment; and three, in social development.

The amending Bill we have in front of us today addresses the issue of conserving natural resources such as dunes and the environment. I would like to say to the Minister that the Environment Conservation Act of 1989 established the framework for national legislation concerned with the controlling of off-road vehicles on the road.

Although this piece of legislation clearly stated the importance of acquiring a permit for such activities and the areas within which the vehicles may drive, owing to the seclusion of many of these areas some drivers chose to ignore these conditions and continued unperturbed, much to the detriment of our coastline.

We owe it to our children to look after the environment. If we do not conserve what we have, we will lose it and, more importantly, we shall have betrayed generations to come.

The ANC supports the amending Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Chairperson, let me at the outset express my gratitude to the portfolio committee and to all the political parties for having supported this important amending Bill.

This is an interesting situation that has arisen. This legislation was initially made by ministerial proclamation some time ago when I gazetted a proclamation outlawing the willy-nilly driving of vehicles on our beaches. I then came to Parliament and said: Are you prepared to amend the Bill in order that the legislation which was made by the Minister would have the status of having been made by Parliament? All the parties readily agreed to do this.

I think that the message which is being sent out to the people of this country, particularly to those who have a disregard for the environment and who insist that they have a right to drive their vehicles in sensitive ecosystems, particularly beaches, is that every party in Parliament and every elected representative of the people of South Africa is at one when we say that people should not be allowed to wreck our beaches by driving their vehicles on those beaches.

Every party, that is the ANC, the Democratic Alliance, the New NP, the UDM, the ACDP, the MF - all of us - are at one with wanting to protect our environment, and those ruffians who insist on driving their bakkies on the beaches have no place in this country.

Of course, the legislation, as did the original proclamation, does allow for certain exemptions. We will grant exemptions because it would be foolish to have a law which does not allow for any exemptions. For example, disabled persons should be allowed certain exemptions, as should safety and security personnel, scientists and researchers. For various other purposes certain very carefully considered exemptions will be allowed, including exemptions for bona fide sporting activities, such as tournaments which are held under the auspices of the Department of Sport and Recreation. I must, however, make it very clear that these exemptions will be few and far between. The idea of exemptions will not be to make the exception the rule once again.

As far as the Greater St Lucia Wetland Park is concerned, I think the point which the hon Mbuyazi made is quite important: how does one balance economic development with the need to protect the environment? The problem, however, is that we have had lots of tourists and visitors going to that part of KwaZulu-Natal for many, many years, yet that is one of the poorest parts of our country. One of the lowest household income indexes can be found in the Maputoland area, which is in north-eastern KwaZulu-Natal.

The reason for that is because we are not getting the right kind of tourism. We get the sort of people who drive over there in their bakkies, pitch tents in places where they should not be pitching tents and bring all their food from Johannesburg or wherever they come from. They do not really buy anything or procure anything in the area, as a result of which they do not create employment. They can only create business for one of two corner shops in the area from which they procure their bread, milk and stuff like that.

However, if one takes Cape Town as a destination, it does not have that kind of tourism. People who come to Cape Town generally stay in hotels. They engage in the kind of tourist activities that create quite a lot of jobs.

That is the turnaround we are trying to create in the Greater St Lucia Wetland Park. We have already put out a number of sites on tender, and we hope that over the next few months we will be able to announce the successful bidders so that we can actually have hotels and guesthouses - proper tourism that brings a real income into that area. We do not need people to go there to wreck those beautiful beaches for short-term gain, while in the long term we have nothing there. So this is a very carefully thought-out strategy that we have.

I thank hon members for their support. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

         CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT
          OF INTERNATIONAL INSTRUMENTS ON CULTURAL PROPERTY
             IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION

Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Geagte Voorsitter, dit is moeilik om jou emosies te beskrywe as jy ‘n besoek bring aan die Britse Museum in Londen. Vir my is dit ‘n opwindende, maar terselfdertyd ook ‘n neerdrukkende ervaring. Die een oomblik is jy baie dankbaar vir die voorreg om te sien en te ervaar; die volgende oomblik raak jy erg beswaard by die wete dat daar kinders reg deur die wêreld is wat nooit die voorreg sal hê om dié besondere kulturele prestasies van hul eie kultuur te sien nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Hon Chairperson, it is difficult to describe one’s emotions when visiting the British Museum in London. To me it is an exciting yet at the same time depressing experience. One moment one is very grateful for the privilege of seeing and experiencing; the next moment one gets extremely depressed knowing that there are children all over the world who will never enjoy the privilege of seeing these particular cultural achievements of their own culture.]

One moment one is walking tall when looking at the artefacts of once powerful empires, symbols of the achievements of formidable rulers of the Assyrian, Persian, Egyptian, Grecian and Roman empires. The next moment one is cut down to size when one realises that the artefacts against the walls are also symbols of how the mighty have fallen - an illustration of the ultimate insignificance of each one of those once formidable rulers and proud empires.

‘n Britse museumervaring, die sinnelose vernietiging van Boeddhabeelde deur die Taliban, die huidige plundering van kultuurerfenis in die Demokratiese Republiek van die Kongo, die onverskillige hantering van ons eie parlementêre kunsskatte en die gemak waarmee waardevolle erfstukke voete kry uit Tuynhuis, onderstreep die belangrikheid van die konvensies onder bespreking. [A British Museum experience, the senseless destruction of statues of Buddha by the Taliban, the present ransacking of the cultural heritage in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the indifferent handling of our own parliamentary art treasures and the ease with which valuable heirlooms disappear from Tuynhuys, all underscore the importance of the conventions under discussion.]

The Statutes of the International Centre for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property, or Iccrom, contribute to preserving cultural heritage through five main spheres of activity, namely training, information, research, co-operation and advocacy.

While Iccrom is ensuring preservation and restoration, the Hague Convention, managed by Unesco, assists those states that are party to this convention to prevent illicit trafficking in cultural property, to co- operate with other states which have difficulty in protecting their heritage and to take steps to educate the public. These states are also bound to return to other states or parties cultural property that has been stolen from a museum or similar institution.

Die Demokratiese Alliansie ondersteun die aanvaarding en implementering van hierdie konvensies omdat ons glo dat dit sal bydra tot die bewaring en uitbouing van ons kultuurerfenis. Ook hierdie erfenis is onlosmaaklik deel van die kartering waarna die Speaker verwys; kartering wat noodsaaklik is vir die soeke en herbevestiging van ons kulturele identiteit, waarsonder die legkaart van diversiteit onvoltooid sal bly en waarsonder dit elkeen van ons soveel armer sal laat. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The Democratic Alliance supports the adoption and implementation of these conventions because we believe that they will contribute to the conservation and extension of our cultural heritage. This heritage, too, forms an integral part of the charting to which Madam Speaker has referred, charting which is essential for the quest for and reconfirmation of our cultural identity, and without this the jigsaw of diversity will remain unfinished, and without this it will leave each of us so much poorer.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Chairman, for a country like South Africa, which has unique cultural properties, it is about time that we begin to give accent to these United Nations conventions. In Egypt, in the early part of the last century, British and French activity in that country stripped it of some of its most valuable cultural artefacts that had been there for tens of thousands of years, so much so that today if one goes to museums in London or Paris, one will find the artefacts which were stripped from Egypt in these museums.

If we consider also the number of museums on the African continent as a whole, it will come as a surprise to many of us to know that apart from Egypt, South Africa and a handful of other countries, very few of the museums that once existed in Africa are still there. This is possibly because of the activities of individuals who, at times with the collusion of leaders of countries, took away rare, national and priceless assets for exhibition in museums elsewhere in the world.

Unesco decided that a web of laws had to be created in order to prevent these ancient, priceless treasures from being taken away, and, if they were taken away, to provide for the country concerned to be able to reclaim them; to provide for countries, in times of war, to be able to protect priceless treasures themselves; and to prevent those conducting armed conflict from destroying what is priceless in the world.

These conventions have been coming into existence since 1954, the most recent being in the 1970s. This indicates that the countries of the world are beginning to give very serious consideration to preserving that which they have inherited and over which we, as a people, must now become trustees in order that we can give these treasures to our children intact, as we found them.

The problem also is that without the conventions being signed, South Africa will not have the statutory regime to be able to ensure that many of its artefacts that have been removed can be brought back, or to prevent unscrupulous dealers from taking, in the blink of an eye, that which is valuable to some other country and without our having the means to reclaim these artefacts.

Because the IFP is conscious that we really need to preserve artefacts at all costs - as I have said, we are only the trustees - it supports these instruments and requests the department to ensure that the legislation that might be needed to give support to all of these conventions comes into existence so that nothing extremely valuable to South Africa can ever be lost; or, if something is lost, for us then to have the statutory means to reclaim it and to restore to the nation that which belongs to the nation.

It is sad indeed that we have taken two years to bring this to Parliament, but now that it is here we hope to be able to give impetus to the moves that were made by Unesco in this regard.

The IFP supports Iccrom and the conventions.

Mrs A VAN WYK: Chair, it is a disappointment that neither the Minister, the Deputy Minister or any of the other Ministers that are affected by these conventions are here today, but I trust that one way or another they will hear the message. We gladly endorse these long-overdue conventions and also the Statute of the International Centre for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property.

Today we heard with gratification, as my hon colleague mentioned, that Cape Town has been placed fifth among the 10 best places in the world to visit. However, this achievement does not only relate to its natural beauty or the favourable exchange rate, but also to its unique cultural heritage. Natural beauty can be found all over, but South Africa is exceptional in the richness of its cultural and scientific heritage in Southern Africa. This heritage needs to be looked after and used to develop our people and to bring in tourism revenue.

Ons het maar ‘n handjievol verklaarde nasionale instellings en die SA Erfenishulpbronagentskap het die verantwoordelikheid om na derduisende monumente om te sien. SAEHA het ‘n voorlopige lys van kategorieë van onder meer etnografiese, argeologiese en kunsmateriaal waaraan algemene beskerming verleen word.

Wanneer daar egter byvoorbeeld aansoek gedoen word om ‘n uitvoerpermit en dit geweier word, kan daar ná ses maande geappelleer word en indien die geld of ‘n plaaslike koper nie gevind word nie, verloor ons so ‘n skat.

Erfenis moet ‘n groter hap uit die Tesourie kry. Dit is nie ‘n luukse nie. Dit is ‘n basiese bron van rykdom vir Suid-Afrika. Ek wil vandag ‘n pleidooi lewer by die staat en al drie regeringsfere dat erfenis as een van die topprioriteite vir ontwikkeling en benutting beskou moet word. Dit is ‘n ontsaglike bron wat reg onder ons neuse sit en wat ons sienderoë toelaat om te vergaan deur swak opvoeding, verwaarlosing, sloping, kortsigtige geldgierigheid, onwettige uitvoer en diefstal. Hiervan is die publiek en die staat nie vry te spreek nie.

Gebrek aan kapasiteit ten opsigte van erfenis onder amptenare en die uitvoerende gesag in elke regeringsfeer moet nou dringend aangespreek word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.)

[We have but a mere handful of declared national institutions and the SA Heritage Resource Agency has the responsibility to look after thousands of monuments. SAHRA has a provisional list of categories of among others, ethnographic, archaelogical and art material which are given general protection.

However, if one, for example, applies for an export permit and it is refused, then after six months one may appeal and if the money or a local buyer is not found, then we lose such a treasure.

Heritage should get a bigger chunk from Treasury. It is not a luxury. It is a basic source of wealth for South Africa. I want to plead today with the state and all three tiers of Government that our heritage must be seen as one of the top priorities for development and utilisation. It is an enormous source sitting right under our very noses and which we visibly allow to decay through poor education, neglect, demolition, avarice, illegal exports and theft. The public and the state cannot be excluded from this.

Lack of capacity with regard to our heritage among officials and the executive in each and every sphere of Government needs to be addressed urgently.]

Collections in municipal care and even at universities, are in severe danger through lack of the right kind of protection, and none of the types of protection will take place on the present shoestring budgetary approach towards heritage and with the miserly treatment of people working in science and heritage.

Mrs M A SEECO: Chairperson and hon members, the mandate of the International Centre for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property - Iccrom - is to improve conditions for the effective conservation of cultural heritage resources worldwide. Today heritage is related to other global issues, such as the development of tourism and cultural identity, and is no longer a mere luxury consumer item.

Iccrom has an interesting programme designed for all of sub-Saharan Africa, called ``Africa 2009’’. Its first objective is to better integrate the conservation of immovable cultural heritage into the large context of development in Africa. One of its priorities is to integrate conservation into a process of sustainable human development.

The purpose of these conventions is to develop the principles and standards with regard to the transfer of ownership, import and export of cultural property. The states or parties to the conventions undertake to adopt the necessary measures, one, to prevent museums within their … The UCDP gives this its support. [Time expired]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairman, there is no nation in the world which can stop the manipulation of information and the tarnishing of its image if it lacks culture.

Epistemology is related to culture. The loss of indigenous knowledge results in a nation becoming an imitation of others, with too many borrowed solutions to its problems which are irrelevant and which do not meet its needs.

What has happened to our knowledge of our ancestors through which they could identify a stone from which to make iron tools? Today one needs a Western university-trained geologist to supply this knowledge, knowledge which was like drinking coffee to our ancestors.

We must not stop with the mere preservation of African cultural property. We must also have this property repatriated from the museums of Europe. This property includes Africa’s artefacts such as the golden stool, state coronation swords, golden nuggets and jewellery, African scripts going as far back as 3000 BC and the history of those many African civilations, including the first human civilisation on earth. [Time expired]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF is a firm believer in the preservation of culture, tradition and religion. These factors make people what they are. They are the very fabric of each individual. They also keep people together. Familiarity, common interests and beliefs make people one.

The importance of preserving these beliefs and values is crucial. In our Constitution we have undertaken to protect the rights of our persons, cultures and religions and the freedom to practise these. The MF firmly supports the preservation and restoration of cultural property. This will enable the preservation of rich histories and will bring people together.

However, we have earnestly learned to respect other cultures, religions and beliefs that differ from our own, and in a multicultural society this is a prerequisite to maintaining harmony.

The MF supports the approval by Parliament of the statutes and conventions in this respect.

Ms H M MPAKA: Chairperson, hon members, in international affairs, which include the inculcation of a spirit of internationalism amongst our people, the ANC-led Government has achieved the repositioning of South Africa on the African continent and in international forums as the principal advocate of African interests and as a champion of the development agenda of the countries of the south.

The new legislative framework, the National Heritage Resources Act, Act 25 of 1999, accords with the White paper on Arts, Culture and Heritage, and legislation for the protection and management of places and objects of cultural significance is contained in the Act.

Accession to Unesco’s conventions concerning our heritage could ensure South Africa’s co-operation in human rights documentation that reflects the close relationships between human rights and the protection of cultural historical wealth.

The preservation of our heritage is the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology’s line function, and the acceptance of international legislative frameworks will ensure co-operation from the international community in the restitution or repatriation of cultural objects to their countries of origin.

As part of Unesco, South Africa must realise that it has an interest in, and ought to have notice of, foreign and international legal developments that affect rights to tangible cultural property. Loss of cultural heritage is avoidable and is an impoverishment, not only for the inhabitants of Africa, but also for all of humankind.

Armed conflict, such as the recent conflicts in the Gulf and Yugoslavia, has highlighted the importance of the Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the event of armed conflict. This convention is the charter of cultural internationalism, the idea that humanity, as opposed to a nation, is the interested party. Respect for cultural property is the obligation of both the territorial state and its enemies in times of conflict.

The Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property safeguards our heritage from being illegally exported, amd prohibits the import of stolen goods from museums and dealing in stolen goods, as my colleagues have alluded to.

This is a worldwide problem and many valuable cultural objects, such as religious icons and archeological finds are illegally removed. This is especially important for South Africa as we have a large rock art heritage and an indigenous religious systems heritage. This convention also protects any cultural property against theft, pillage, misappropriation or vandalism directed against it.

The International Centre for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property contributes to the worldwide conservation and restoration of cultural property by initiating, developing, promoting and facilitating conditions for such conservation and restoration.

Iccrom exercises the following functions that will be of benefit to all signatories: to collect, study and circulate information concerned with scientific, technical and ethical issues relating to the conservation and restoration of cultural property; to stimulate and co-ordinate research, international meetings, publications, documents, etc; to give advice and make recommendations; to promote, provide and develop training to raise the level of expertise; and to encourage initiatives to create a better understanding of conservation and restoration.

As a member state, South Africa will benefit from signing these conventions. They will form part of the law of the country and are consistent with the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa in terms of section 231.

This alone reaffirms the ANC’s commitment to the struggle for a more equitable and just world order, consistent with the Freedom Charter which declares that relations amongst nations should be so ordered to produce peace and friendship among the nations of the world.

In conclusion, the advantages of membership of Iccrom are that South Africa would be entitled to appoint a Government representative who can attend the biennial general assembly of this organisation to propose a candidate for its council, South Africa would be actively involved in the policy and programmes of Iccrom, and South African nationals can be included in Iccrom’s courses, training programmes, partnerships and regional courses. This will enable our country to play a crucial role in, and act as a point of reference for, heritage conservation on the continent of Africa.

As we are all aware, the exciting political changes and democratisation of South Africa highlighted that South Africa, as part of the continent of Africa, is increasingly becoming the hub of cultural activity. If the loss of cultural heritage is not avoided, South Africa and all humankind will certainly be the poorer.

The ANC supports these conventions. The portfolio committee recommends that the House approve the said conventions and the statutes respectively. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I am informed that the Minister is not available.

Debate concluded.

Statutes of the International Centre for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property (ICCROM) approved.

Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property, 14 November 1970, approved.

Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the event of Armed Conflict (The Hague Convention) with regulations for the execution and the coverence resolutions, 14 May 1954, approved.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE FOR 2001-02

Dr S C CWELE: Chairperson, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence has the task of ensuring that we balance secrecy and openness in our oversight function of the intelligence structures.

The committee has had fruitful interaction with the Inspector-General, the Auditor-General and the judge responsible for issuing orders for interception. We, however, did not receive any report on the activities of the services and the certificates of compliance from the Office of the Inspector-General. As hon members know, the Inspector-General resigned on 28 February this year.

The Auditor-General raised the problem of asset management and an asset register for almost all the intercivilian intelligence services, which the committee has taken up with the services with regular follow-ups.

The main problem raised by the committee was the unintended consequences of the Taxation Laws Amendment Act of 2001, which introduced the taxation of foreign allowances of the officers deployed abroad. The committee and the services are of the view that this should not have been allowed, and we recommend that it should be avoided in future in order to prevent disastrous consequences for our national security.

The other concern of the committee is the vagueness about the body which will determine the funding levels of our services. This was supposed to be done by the defunct evaluation committee, and is currently done by the Presidential Intelligence Budget Advisory Committee - Pibac.

The committee recommends that Pibac be formalised or given a legal mandate to continue to monitor the services so that they are adequately resourced to perform their core functions. In our interactions with the services we observed that there were satisfactory improvements in a number of areas, for example the quality of the products, performance, discipline, a fall in the rate of absenteeism, and improvement in management and administration in general.

However, we noted that in the printed version of the report in Parliament, a whole section was omitted which dealt with the SA Secret Service, which report was adopted by the committee. I would like just to quote the section that was omitted regarding SASS:

… the committee has had good interaction with SASS. There is sound improvement in the management and administration matters. During the past financial year SASS underwent a major restructuring process. The objective was to reposition the organisation so as to be able to compete in the international arena.

The committee held informative briefings by the services on the matter that related to security regionally and internationally. The policy shift that changed, which is in the international relations highlighted, were linked to the international events that took place in the past 12 months. These shifts and changes demanded us to revisit our own policies and, where possible, align them with the requirements of the service to perform its core business.

The National Intelligence Agency is fulfilling its mandate of monitoring national security and as the custodian of the counterintelligence responsibility. They have made breakthroughs in the fight against corruption, extremism, terrorism and gangsterism.

The defence intelligence and crime intelligence have increasingly been under the scrutiny of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. The committee appreciates the co-operation and commitment of these services. However, we are convinced that the former members of these services should also be under restraint of trade on leaving these services, as in the civilian structures. They should also develop internal mechanisms to resolve their disputes, particularly labour disputes.

We thank all our intelligence structures for ensuring that South Africa successfully hosted major international events. This has contributed towards improving the image of our country in the global village. We would like to thank all our intelligence officers who, through their dedication and commitment, have ensured that our country is a place where all South Africans are secure and where there is the prospect of a better life for all being enjoyed.

I move that the report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence for 2001 be adopted, with the amendment which includes the section which deals with the SASS. [Applause.]

Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Chairperson, we have a comprehensive report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence for the past year, setting out our activities and the present status of all our structures within Intelligence, Defence, the Police Service plus other related matters.

In my speech on Burundi some time ago, I advocated that South Africa should decide on its priorities and not get involved in sideshows, in other words we need a national or, rather, a homeland security strategy. If we had such a strategy we would get more involved with problems facing us inside our borders and immediately outside our borders, and the relevant departments would not be venturing into a vacuum and making assumptions which may not be true or valid.

Our Foreign Affairs, Defence, Intelligence, Finance and other departments cannot operate without knowing what our nation’s priorities are. Within the parameters of this strategy our Ministry of Intelligence can effectively plan and conduct operations. If not, they could be going on wild-goose chases with no defined objectives.

We are on the threshold of a major war in the Middle East. Fortunately, South Africa was not directly involved in the last Gulf War and, hopefully, we will not be called upon to participate actively in a possible future war.

Last Friday the UN unanimously passed Resolution 1441 to compel Iraq to declare and get rid of all its weapons of mass destruction and to allow inspectors into the country. This resolution taken by the UN was a historic event. All 15 members of the Security Council voted in favour of it. Even Syria agreed to it, and so did Kofi Annan. Iraq now has to reply within seven days whether it accepts the resolution or not, and by the end of another 23 days it has to declare all its weapons of mass destruction.

The visit of our Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs to Iraq poses some questions. If we had had nationals strategic priorities, maybe he would not have gone. We have been saying that his visit was inopportune, and recent events have proved it. I wonder what assurances he has given Sadam Hussein on this issue. I can make a good deduction from the picture we saw in the press of him stepping on a Hussein pavement slogan which read ``George Bush is a criminal’’ or words to that effect. [Interjections.] He was all smiles when the picture was taken. Which side must we be on then, that of Hussein or the United Nations? His visit there did not go without international notice.

From our report one can see that all the necessary substructures are in place, and all that remains now is to produce and give outputs, and for us as a committee to see that all are doing what they were intended to do, and that they do not spend their funds irresponsibly.

We can assure the House that we are well aware of our oversight responsibilities and will act accordingly. My thanks go to the Minister, the chairman of the committee and my colleagues on the committee. [Applause.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: Chairperson, for various reasons, amongst others, the very thorough and involved screening processes that members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence have to go through, and as a result of some misunderstandings thrown in for good measure, the IFP has not had any representation on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence for over a year until about a week ago.

Because of our unfortunate and enforced absence from the committee, it is unrealistic to expect us to make any real comments on the report that has been presented to Parliament by the committee. However, after having studied the report from the disadvantaged position that we have been in, there does not seem to be any issues contained in the report that are contradictory or problematic.

We also fully support the committee’s request to all stakeholders involved in the replacement process, as precribed by legislation, to have this process expedited. On the basis of the reasons given above, we take note of the report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and will support its adoption.

Mrs M E OLCKERS: Chairperson, there are two areas of concern to the New NP on the JSCI’s oversight role. The one is the co-ordinating role of Nicoc that causes concern and the other is military intelligence. Both these services should improve productivity and co-operation. Discipline is a continual problem in especially military intelligence.

It is also with regret that the report states that in a whole year the Ministers of Defence and of Safety and Security never once met with the JSCI. We appreciate the fact that the Minister of Safety and Security has not been in office very long, and hope this situation will improve in future. An overall state of performance is very difficult for the JSCI to judge if these meetings do not take place regularly.

Een van die probleme wat die staande komitee moet hanteer, is die groot tekort aan finansiering vir die komitee. Daar behoort ‘n formule van kriteria deur die Parlement uitgewerk te word oor hoe om komitees te finansier. Intelligensiedienste kan nie sonder ingeligte oorsese praktyke die beste internasionale praktyk vir Suid-Afrika daarstel nie. Die feit dat die Staande Komitee op Intelligensie nie een keer hierdie afgelope boekjaar met ander lande kon gaan inligting uitruil en van ander kon leer nie, is onaanvaarbaar. Die rede is suiwer ‘n tekort aan geld, want daar was heelwat uitnodigings van ander lande.

Die staande komitee kan nie, soos ander staande komitees met borge se geld of as gaste van ander lande se intelligensiedienste op studiebesoeke oorsee gaan nie, want uit die aard van ons werk laat dit die komitee oop vir baie kritiek. Daarom is hierdie komitee, anders as ander komitees, geheel en al van hul begroting van die Parlement afhanklik. Op die oomblik is dit geheel en al ontoereikend.

Die Nuwe NP wil die verskeie intelligensiedienste gelukwens met die afgelope jaar se groot suksesse. Ons dink hier veral aan die groot gebeure soos die Wêreldberaad vir Volhoubare Ontwikkeling; die stigting van die Afrika-Unie; die sukses sover behaal met die ultraregse boeremag; die Kilroy-arrestasie namens Interpol en die FBI, ensovoorts.

Dit is die tipe suksesse wat Suid Afrika se statuur wêreldwyd verhoog. Die Nuwe NP neem kennis van en steun die jaarverslag van die Staande Komitee op Intelligensie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans of paragraphs follows.)

[One of the problems which the standing committee must handle is the huge shortage of funding for the committee. A formula of criteria should be worked out by Paliament on how to finance committees.

Intelligence services cannot create the best international practice for South Africa without informed overseas practices. The fact that the Standing Committee on Intelligence could not exchange information with other countries, nor learn from others even once during the past financial year, is unacceptable. The reason is purely a shortage of money, because there was a considerable number of invitations from other countries.

The standing committee cannot, like other standing committees, go abroad on study tours with sponsors’ money, or as guests of other countries’ intelligence services, because as a result of the nature of our work it leaves the committee open to much criticism. That is why this committee, unlike other committees, is completely dependent on their budget from Parliament. At the moment it is totally inadequate.

The New NP wants to congratulate the various intelligence services on the big successes of the past year. Here we think especially of the huge events like the World Summit on Substainable Development, the establishment of the African Union, the success which has thus far been gained with the ultraright boeremag, the Kilroy arrest on behalf of Interpol and the FBI, etc.

These are the types of successes which promote South African’s stature worldwide. The New NP takes note of and supports the report of the Standing Committee on Intelligence. [Applause.]]

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, during the year that covers this particular report, the current Deputy Minister of Home Affairs served as chairperson. She succeeded in welding the committee into a unit which focused on the role and obligations that the statutes place on this particular committee. We are now, of course, led by the current chairperson. I want to say that he is continuing the good work and examples that were set by the previous chairperson.

In a very short space of time - I have hardly started - this thing starts telling me I must shut up.

In the very short time that I have at my disposal, may I just appeal to the powers that be that the circumstances under which this particular committee operates, and the premises from which it operates are extremely inadequate for an important committee like this one.

We are ill-resourced and ill-equipped. We do not have the modern technology and the modern equipment that are required at our offices. The environment is not conducive to sustaining the work that we have to do, and the office space is extremely inadequate. I believe it is overdue that we be put into premises that will lend credence to the type of important work that this committee has to do.

In conclusion, may I congratulate all the agencies of the intelligence services on the wonderful work that they have done in averting major disasters in our country. We are aware of the many things that they have done. Regarding the disaster that overtook us two weeks ago, may we express the hope that the perpetrators will be tracked down and that the citizens will be proven wrong. I believe that they are being hidden away and catered for inside our country by some of their sympathisers, and I trust that our intelligence forces will flush them out.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the ACDP supports the adoption of the annual report of the JSCI as tabled on 11 September 2002.

I believe that the JSCI should focus on the role of Nicoc in the future. The JSCI needs to give closer attention to the activities of defence intelligence, and crime intelligence, as borne out by the recent bombings in Soweto. The subsequent swift arrest bears out the importance of this. We have a democracy and therefore there is no need to take up arms against this Government. In this Parliament we fight with words and ideas and not with bullets.

We want to congratulate the relevant intelligence structures on their good work that led to the swift arrest of those involved in the Soweto bombings. We pledge our support to these intelligence structures to bring to book the rest of the perpetrators. We agree that taxation of foreign allowances of members of the foreign services should be discontinued or drastically reduced.

In conclusion, I wish to commend and congratulate the Minister of Intelligence and the chairperson of our committee on work well done for this year.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chair, the MF salutes the Department of Intelligence’s dedication to protecting the South African citizenry, our national interests and governments globally. The challenge of this task is known, especially with security threats globally and the chill of the September 11 attacks that sent shivers down the spines of many governments. This makes one worry as to whether we are doing enough. Are we safe enough? And would we be - could we be - ready for such, if any, attacks?

South Africa has good relations and works hard at these relations, earning us a lot of respect. However, we do often find ourselves in a very compromising situation that could be quite detrimental to the good relations that we have built up and maintained.

The MF is glad to note the section’s commitment to accountability that brings it into line with the democratic values that we work hard to inculcate in every sphere and sector. At the end of the day everyone in Government is here because of the people, and we remain responsible to them at all times.

Mr M I SCOTT: Chairperson, hon members, thank you very much for the opportunity to participate in this debate on the report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.

We are living in a period in which there is increased pressure on intelligence communities worldwide. There is an increase in international terrorism, in international right-wing extremism and in organised transnational crime. This has led to quite an increase in spending on security organs. These conditions have changed dramatically the strategic direction the intelligence structures have adopted in order to ensure national security of their citizens and to contribute towards world peace. It is important from the outset to commend the intelligence agencies for the sterling job they have done with regard to the quiet, peaceful international conferences that have been held in the country. We should also not forget the important role they are playing in peace efforts in Africa.

We believe that we should encourage our communities to work with intelligence agencies to ensure that we all contribute towards national security. We should discourage those who do not value some of our national institutions and who, at all times, try to demonise our security organs. We appeal to our people to protect and co-operate with our agencies.

We would like to reiterate that never again shall intelligence structures be abused, or abuse their power to undermine the constitutional rights of our citizens. It is for this reason that we have put in place a number of oversight structures. The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is one those intelligence oversight mechanisms. The committee takes complaints from members of the community. We have given such complaints the attention they deserve. Some have also come from members of the intelligence agencies.

It is important to note that international experience has proven that to perform the oversight function of intelligence agencies is not an easy task. It is quite a difficult one. It is for that reason that most oversight structures in the USA, the UK, Australia, Canada, etc, have quite specialised, sizable and complementary staff. They are funded differently because of the nature of their work. The countries that have such an oversight mechanism have been driven by the history of their intelligence structures.

In South Africa we believe that because of our history it is imperative that we have an oversight mechanism. The members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence should not be seen or perceived as spooks, as happens in the corridors of power here.

It is important to note that the committee has been encountering problems in order to function efficiently. We believe it is in the best interests of the nation and the institution to address such challenges. Let us not move along a path that might wittingly or unwittingly cripple the committee.

On the issue of the budget, I think it is important that we be able to develop a different formula for its funding. The committee has, at times, had to carry out investigations into the allegations it received, and these investigations have been carried out by MPs who have also had to attend to their overloaded workload at Parliament owing to their small staff complement.

We recommend that Parliament consider the following: one, provide a properly secured place around Parliament; two, look at increasing the number of staff, in particular specialised staff; and, three, begin to look at new ways of funding in order for the committee to work properly.

We would like to appeal to everyone in this institution to work with the JSCI in a way that assists it to fulfil its constitutional and legislative obligations. We would also like to urge the intelligence agencies to continue with ongoing training in order to further improve the quality of work of the intelligence agencies.

The co-ordination of intelligence is of paramount importance for the agencies to succeed in the challenges facing our country. The route we have taken has proven to be the correct one as a country. We need to build on it in order to strengthen co-ordination. It has delivered some fruits on a number of projects.

The issue of a threat from right-wing extremists needs a lot of co- ordination. We would like to urge the heads of the services and the Ministers to ensure that we eliminate the element of unnecessary competition.

Finally, we urge all our citizens to co-operate with our intelligence agencies in dealing with the challenges facing our country. We support the report. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON of COMMITTEES: Order! I have been informed that there is an agreement that Orders of the Day Nos 4 and 5 will be taken together. The Orders concern international agreements, reported on by the Portfolio Committee on Justice.

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL OF INTERNATIONAL INSTRUMENTS ON
                      MUTUAL LEGAL ASSISTANCE,
                         AND ON EXTRADITION
             IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION

Mr G SOLOMON: Chair, on behalf of the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, we wish to make the following statement regarding agreements and extradition treaties between the Republic of South Africa and the governments of the Arab Republic of Egypt, the Democratic People’s Republic of Algeria, the Federal Republic of Nigeria, the French Republic and the People’s Republic of China.

Extradition is the delivery of a criminal from one country to another where he or she is accused of a crime or has been convicted of a crime. International law does not recognise any general duty on the part of states to surrender criminals. In practice, therefore, the return of criminals is secured by means of extradition agreements between states.

An extradition agreement determines the offences in respect of which extradition is possible and the circumstances in which extradition can be refused. The procedures to be followed in extradition proceedings are determined by the Extradition Act.

Section 231(2) of the Constitution, furthermore, provides that an international agreement will only bind the Republic if it has been approved by resolution in both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces.

South Africa’s political isolation during the apartheid era made it almost impossible for it to conclude extradition agreements. Thankfully, South Africa has now returned to international respectability and we are no longer in isolation in respect of extradition.

Agreements such as those before us represent an important means of extending our network of extradition agreements and help towards fighting crime in the international arena. Therefore, we request the approval of this House for the agreements and treaties entered into by the Republic of South Africa and the countries mentioned. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Arab Republic of Egypt on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters approved.

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Democratic People’s Republic of Algeria on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters approved.

Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Federal Republic of Nigeria on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters approved.

Agreement on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the French Republic approved.

Extradition Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Arab Republic of Egypt approved.

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Democratic People’s Republic of Algeria on Extradition approved.

Extradition Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Federal Republic of Nigeria approved.

Treaty between the Republic of South Africa and the People’s Republic of China on Extradition approved.

      CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE
 AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT - DELAY IN SUBMISSION OF TREATIES ON
               EXTRADITION AND MUTUAL LEGAL ASSISTANCE

MR G SOLOMON: Chairperson, various reasons can be mentioned for the fact that certain signed treaties were submitted to Parliament months after they were signed. Problems are experienced when treaties are signed by the Minister of Foreign Affairs in a foreign country or even in South Africa. For some reason the Department of Foreign Affairs could not trace the treaties with Egypt, signed in Cairo on 22 October 2001. The department only received the treaties on 23 May 2002. Although the Algerian treaties were signed by Minister Zuma on 9 October 2001, the department only received the signed treaties on 29 May 2002.

With regard to the treaties with France, the protocol official mixed up the sequence of the agreements to be signed and the South African Minister - I do not know which one it was - inadvertendly signed the French text of the agreement. In other words, our Minister of Foreign Affairs was therefore requested to sign the French text months after the original signing ceremony.

It must also be mentioned that when treaties with different countries are signed in a short space of time, they are kept until they are all signed, whereafter they are submitted in a batch to Parliament. Therefore it is hoped that the reasons given will be adequate for this House.

There was no debate.

The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

     CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF CONSTITUTIONAL REVIEW COMMITTEE

There was no debate.

The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be noted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly noted.

            CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
              ON PRIVATE MEMBERS' LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
                        AND SPECIAL PETITIONS Mr P A C HENDRICKSE: Chairperson, to  all  those  people  who  said  ``Hoor! Hoor!'' I say thank you. The report is in two parts. The  first  part  deals with a petition before the committee. The recommendation  of  the  committee is that the petition of Mr O B van Schalkwyk not be granted.

The second part of the report is the annual report of the committee for last year. It sets out the number of public hearings and meetings that were held and the number of legislative proposals that were covered. The report also states that three petitions were finalised and that two more are being dealt with.

Then, of course, with regard to administration, the committee once again noted its concern with the problems of photostat facilities available to the committee section and the problem with the high staff turnover, and recommends that committee chairs be consulted when their staff are changed or appointed.

In conclusion, allow me to thank all the members of the committee for the manner in which they have always conducted themselves.

There was no debate.

The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be noted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly noted.

         CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT
          OF INTERNATIONAL INSTRUMENTS ON MONEY LAUNDERING,
    DOUBLE TAXATION AND FISCAL EVASION IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2)
                           OF CONSTITUTION

Ms B A HOGAN: Chairperson … [Applause.] For those who are not in the loop, this is just to keep me down to two minutes! There is no such agreement; we are here for one and a half hours to debate this document, this document and this document. Let me get started! [Laughter.]

The two agreements here are very simple, that is the agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the government of New Zealand and, likewise, between South Africa and the government of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. These are simply double taxation agreements. South Africa, as members know, did not have many double taxation agreements during the apartheid era. Over the past couple of years we have had to ratify a large number of double taxation agreements. These are another two sets of double taxation agreements. They are very complex, but run to a standard form.

One of the issues which precipitated an exchange of notes was how we deal with secondary tax on companies, which is a uniquely South African tax. There is an agreement between these two countries as to how that should be dealt with. I recommend to the House that these agreements be adopted.

The other agreement, which is a very important agreement, is around anti- money laundering. This agreement is a memorandum of understanding signed by our Minister of Finance in July with countries in Eastern and Southern Africa to look at measures to counter money laundering. At the launch it was agreed that a memorandum of understanding to establish this anti-money laundering group, known as the Eastern and Southern African Anti-Money Laundering Group, would be signed by the respective countries. Once seven countries have signed, the group exists.

I am happy to say that the republics of Kenya, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Seychelles, Uganda and the United Republic of Tanzania have all signed the memoranda of understanding, followed more recently by the Kingdom of Swaziland. As I said, our Minister signed in July 2002, and so the ESAAMLG council has been formed. The objectives of ESAAMLG is to make a political commitment to implementing the Finance Action Task Force standards in respect of money laundering.

ESAAMLG will also adopt and implement the 40 recommendations of that task force by creating enabling legislation and the deployment of capacity, applying anti-money laundering measures to all serious crimes and implementing any other measures contained in multilateral agreements.

The memorandum of understanding also specifies that all member countries should establish financial intelligence units and agree to undergo self- assessments and mutual evaluations of the extent of their compliance to these standards. This applies to their legislative, financial intelligence and law-enforcement capacities.

ESAAMLG has initiated a process to start evaluations of member countries to be conducted by their peers. South Africa has volunteered to undergo such a mutual evaluation process. Training to equip evaluators will be provided by a combined FATF and ESAAMLG team in late January. South Africa has been approached to host this training programme. It is expected that this mutual evaluation will be conducted in March 2003. This evaluation process is different from FATF-style assessments, which in future will be conducted according to the new assessment methodology which was adopted by FATF at its recent plenary meeting in Paris in October. This methodology will include an assessment of measures to combat the financing of terrorism.

In addition, the IMF and the World Bank have now been accepted as institutions which may undertake such assessments, although the law- enforcement component remains solely within the ambit of FATF. South Africa will undergo such an assessment in late February or early March 2003.

The final implication for South Africa is the payment of an annual membership fee of US$20 000. [Applause.]

Memorandum of Understanding among Member Governments of the Eastern and Southern African Anti-Money Laundering Group and the Republic of South Africa approved.

Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains approved.

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of New Zealand for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income approved.

The House adjourned at 15:52. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                       FRIDAY, 8 NOVEMBER 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bill was introduced by the Minister for Provincial
     and Local Government in the National Assembly on  8  November  2002
     and  referred  to   the   Joint   Tagging   Mechanism   (JTM)   for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Local Government:  Municipal  Structures  Second  Amendment
          Bill [B 68 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec  75)  [Explanatory
          summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published
          in Government Gazette No 23991 of 1 November 2002.]


     The  Bill  has  been  referred  to  the  Portfolio   Committee   on
     Provincial and Local Government of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:


     Bills, subject to proposed amendments, passed by  National  Council
     of Provinces on 8 November 2002 and transmitted  for  consideration
     of Council's proposed amendments:


     (i)     Intelligence Services  Control  Amendment  Bill  [B  50B  -
              2002]  (National  Assembly  -  sec  75)   (for   proposed
              amendments, see  Announcements,  Tablings  and  Committee
              Reports, 7 November 2002, p 1736).


       (ii)  National Strategic Intelligence Amendment  Bill  [B  51B  -
              2002]  (National  Assembly  -  sec  75)   (for   proposed
              amendments, see  Announcements,  Tablings  and  Committee
              Reports, 7 November 2002, p 1737).


       (iii) Intelligence  Services  Bill  [B  58B  -  2002]  (National
              Assembly  -  sec  75)  (for  proposed   amendments,   see
              Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 7 November
              2002, p 1737).


     (iv)    Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill [B 59B  -
              2002]  (National  Assembly  -  sec  75)   (for   proposed
              amendments, see  Announcements,  Tablings  and  Committee
              Reports, 7 November 2002, p 1738).


     The  Bills  have  been  referred  to  the  Ad  Hoc   Committee   on
     Intelligence Legislation of the National Assembly for a  report  on
     the amendments proposed by the Council.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Housing:

 Report and Financial Statements of LANOK (Proprietary) Limited for 2001-
 2002.

1. The Minister of Communications:

 (a)    Report and  Group  Annual  Financial  Statements  of  the  South
     African Post Office Limited for 1997-1998.


 (b)    Report and  Group  Annual  Financial  Statements  of  the  South
     African Post Office Limited for 1998-1999.


 (c)    Report and  Group  Annual  Financial  Statements  of  the  South
     African Post Office Limited for 1999-2000.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Memorandum of Understanding among Member Governments of Eastern and Southern African Anti-Money Laundering Group and RSA, dated 8 November 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Memorandum of Understanding among Member Governments of the Eastern and Southern African Anti- Money Laundering Group and the Republic of South Africa, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Memorandum.

 Request to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the RSA/UK Convention for Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, dated 8 November 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention. Request to be considered.

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the RSA/New Zealand Agreement for Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, dated 8 November 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of New Zealand for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

 Request to be considered.


                      MONDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 11 November 2002  in  terms
     of Joint Rule 160(6), classified the  following  Bill  as  a  money
     Bill:


     (i)     Revenue  Laws  Amendment  Bill  [B  67  -  2002]  (National
          Assembly - sec 77).


 (2)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional  Development  on  31
     October 2002 submitted a draft of the Constitution of the  Republic
     of South Africa  Fourth  Amendment  Bill,  2002,  as  well  as  the
     memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed  legislation,  to
     the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of  Joint  Rule  159.  The
     draft has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Justice  and
     Constitutional Development and the  Select  Committee  on  Security
     and Constitutional Affairs by  the  Speaker  and  the  Chairperson,
     respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).


 (3)    The Minister for Justice and  Constitutional  Development  on  5
     November 2002 submitted a draft of the Compulsory  HIV  Testing  of
     Alleged Sexual Offenders Bill, 2002,  as  well  as  the  memorandum
     explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the  Speaker
     and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has  been
     referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice  and  Constitutional
     Development   and   the   Select   Committee   on   Security    and
     Constitutional  Affairs  by  the  Speaker  and   the   Chairperson,
     respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker: (1) Bill passed by National Assembly on 11 November 2002: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:

   (i) National Environmental Management Admendment Bill [B 62 - 2002] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76).

 (2)     The  following  private  member's  legislative   proposal   was
     submitted to the Speaker on 11 November 2002,  in  accordance  with
     Rule 234:


     (i)      Prevention  of  Illegal   Eviction   From   and   Unlawful
          Occupation of Land Amendment Bill (Mrs J A Semple).


     In accordance with Rule 235,  the  legislative  proposal  has  been
     referred to the Standing Committee on Private Members'  Legislative
     Proposals and Special Petitions by the Speaker.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Minerals and Energy:

 Annual Report of the Mine Health and Safety Inspectorate for 2001-2002.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Joint Budget Committee on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, dated 11 November 2002:

 The Joint Budget Committee reports as follows:


 CREDA INSERT REPORT

Report to be considered. National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 67 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77], dated 8 November 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 67 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a money Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, dated 11 November 2002:

 The Portfolio Committee on Finance reports as follows:


 1.  Terms of Reference and hearings


     The Minister of Finance tabled the 2002 Medium-Term  Budget  Policy
     Statement (MTBPS) before Parliament on  Tuesday  29  October  2002.
     The 2002 MTBPS  sets  out  the  macroeconomic  context  and  fiscal
     policy  considerations  against  which  the  2003  Budget  will  be
     framed. It  outlines  developments  in  tax  policy  and  the  main
     spending priorities for the  next  three-year  (2003/4  to  2005/6)
     Medium-Term  Expenditure   Framework   (MTEF)   period,   including
     allocations to provincial and local government levels.


     The terms of reference of the Finance Committee were:


     * To hear from the Minister of Finance and the Director-General  of
       National Treasury on the MTBPS and to report on these hearings.
     * To analyse and debate Chapters 2, 3  and  4  of  the  Medium-Term
       Budget Policy Statement (MTBPS). These are the chapters covering
       macroeconomic challenges  and  adjustments,  fiscal  policy  and
       budget framework and taxation.
     * To hold hearings on the issues dealt with in chapters  2,  3  and
       4. Chapters 5 and 6, dealing with the MTEF  and  provincial  and
       local government finances, were referred  to  the  Joint  Budget
       Committee which will report separately.


     In  a  joint  sitting  with  the  Budget  Committee,  the   Finance
     Committee heard evidence from and questioned  the  Director-General
     of National Treasury.


     Then, in order to thoroughly analyse and debate  the  issues  dealt
     with in chapters 2, 3  and  4,  the  Committee  invited  economists
     representing  the  following  institutions  to  give  evidence:  JP
     Morgan, Mazwai Securities and Sanlam.


     The content of the MTBPS is briefly summarised below,  as  are  the
     individual presentations thereafter.


 2.  THE MTBPS IN SUMMARY


 2.1 Introduction and overview


     The Minister drew  particular  attention  to  our  strong  economic
     recovery over the past year, which requires upward revision of  GDP
     growth projections, to 2,6 per cent for 2002 and 3,5 per  cent  for
     2003.


     Important signs of investment in the  productive  capacity  of  the
     economy are  starting  to  show.  Private  consumption  is  growing
     steadily at some 3 per cent annually,  supported  in  part  by  tax
     reductions, and  real  spending  on  government  services  is  also
     increasing.


     The rise in inflation this year was a  setback  for  the  inflation
     reduction objectives, which are now being  revised  to  remain  3-6
     per cent for  2004.  The  Minister  expects  inflation  to  decline
     during 2003, and to fall to under 6 per cent of  the  CPIX  average
     in the last quarter.


     The Commission of Inquiry into the rapid depreciation of  the  Rand
     has  endorsed  government's  policy  of  gradual  exchange  control
     liberalisation, which  policy  will  continue.  In  the  spirit  of
     Nepad,  the  allowance  for  investment  into  Africa  is   sharply
     increased in the MTBPS.


 2.2 Macroeconomic challenges and adjustments


     The MTBPS is formulated against  the  background  of  macroeconomic
     projections,  whose  conditions  determine  its  revenue  envelope.
     Despite  an  unpredictable  global  economy  with  shifts  in   key
     commodity  prices,  the  investment  climate  and  subdued   global
     growth, the Treasury feels cautious optimism.
     The domestic economy has shown  robust  and  broad-based  strength,
     despite the declining international trend.  South  African  exports
     and tourism grew strongly - an unexpected benefit of  the  fall  of
     the rand - and firm  commodity  prices  (especially  for  gold  and
     platinum) led to a trade account surplus of 5 per cent of GDP.  The
     exchange  rate  is  now  stabilising  at  a  level  which   appears
     beneficial to sustained growth.


     The rate of job losses has declined to the point of  stabilisation,
     and net job creation is expected  soon.  The  balance  of  payments
     shows an R27  billion  surplus,  with  small  current  account  and
     financial account surpluses. Domestic  investment  and  consumption
     have also stayed positive so far. The latter may reflect  tax  cuts
     to low-income earners in the next budget.


     Net foreign direct investment levels of R8,3 billion in  the  first
     half  of  2002  were  positive,  with  real  gross  fixed   capital
     formation growing to 6 per cent in the first quarter of this  year,
     and 7 per cent in the second,  indicating  healthy  levels  of  net
     foreign investment. The exchange rate is stabilising.


     Inflation is the major challenge, impacting  disproportionately  on
     poor households. The depreciation of the  Rand  during  the  fourth
     quarter of 2001 was followed by high oil  prices,  production  cost
     pressures and a 20,2 per cent rise in food prices in  the  year  to
     September  2002.  It  is  therefore  expected  that  the  projected
     inflation target for 2002-03 will be missed.


     The Treasury expects CPIX to peak towards the end of  2002  at  9,6
     per cent. Accordingly, the Minister  of  Finance  and  the  Reserve
     Bank agreed to adjust the  inflation  reduction  objectives  agreed
     between them to a band of 3-6 per cent, with the 2005  target  left
     open. The CPIX average is unlikely to fall within the target  range
     again until the last quarter of next year.


     Despite this, overall government debt is down, and  debt  servicing
     levels are healthy.


 2.3 Fiscal policy and budget framework


     Expansionary  fiscal  measures  will  continue,  made  possible  by
     declining  debt  service  costs  which  enable  higher  levels   of
     spending. Debt service costs continue to decline  steadily  to  3,9
     per cent of GDP by 2005-06, with the stock of  national  debt  down
     to a healthy 37,7 per cent of GDP by 2005-06.


     Accordingly, the 2002  MTBPS  states  that  the  stabilisation  and
     structural  changes  initiated  from  1996,  enabled   the   growth
     oriented  fiscal  stance  set  out  in  the  past  two  budgets  to
     continue. Increased poverty reduction in tandem  with  measures  to
     stimulate growth  have  become  possible.  Thus  strong  real  non-
     interest expenditure growth  averaging  4,7  per  cent  a  year  is
     provided for, while moderate tax relief will continue in  the  face
     of adverse global conditions.


     An additional amount of R84,9 billion has been allocated  over  the
     2003 MTEF period to address social  and  economic  needs  over  and
     above the 2002 MTEF allocations.  R57,1  billion  is  allocated  to
     infrastructure development, land  restitution,  health,  education,
     higher education restructuring and improved courts  administration.
     A further R27,8 billion is set  aside  to  offset  the  effects  of
     inflation, primarily for social grants and increases  in  personnel
     spending.


     Revenue forecasts indicate an R8,1 billion revenue  overrun,  which
     reflects the  impact  of  inflation  and  efficiencies  in  revenue
     collection. However,  as  a  percentage  of  GDP,  tax  revenue  is
     marginally below the levels forecast.


     The net open forward position  (NOFP)  has  been  brought  down  to
     US$1,7 billion, from US$4,8 billion at the end of 2001. Of  concern
     are the losses sustained on forward  contracts  over  the  previous
     four years, which have been accumulating in the  Gold  and  Foreign
     Exchange Contingency Reserve (GFECR), and  have  now  been  brought
     into the  budget.  The  Auditor-General  will  verify  the  amount,
     projected at R27 billion on 31 March 2002. Government plans to  pay
     this over the  four-year  MTBP  period  through  the  issue  of  R7
     billion of zero  coupon  bonds  a  year.  This  situation  must  be
     monitored carefully as projected losses may increase  further.  Due
     to the depreciation of the Rand,  the  Reserve  Bank  has  incurred
     significant losses in  settling  its  obligations  on  the  forward
     book. A consolation is that the amount owed is in Rands.
     Although these payments  raise  future  interest  costs  above  the
     figures projected in the 2002 budget, debt service costs are  still
     projected to decline to 4 per  cent  of  GDP  by  2005/6.  National
     government debt declines to 37,7 per cent of  GDP  by  2005-06  and
     foreign debt declines to 7,1 per cent of GDP by 2005-06.


 2.4 Taxation


     Tax revenue is projected to remain at about 24,5 per  cent  of  GDP
     (excluding UIF and social  security  funds).  The  2002-03  revenue
     estimate was increased by  R8,1  billion,  reflecting  conservative
     estimates, as well as strong  company  tax  performances  and  SARS
     efficiencies.


     National budget revenue collection this year is  running  ahead  of
     target, which should allow for a further  moderate  real  reduction
     in the personal income  tax  burden  on  lower-  and  middle-income
     earners again during the 2003-04 fiscal year.


     A thorough review of the taxation of  retirement  savings  is  also
     under way, with wide consultations and enactment into law by  2004.
     The Mineral  Royalty  Bill  containing  a  proposed  structure  and
     design of a mineral and  petroleum  royalty  system  in  line  with
     international best practices will be introduced in 2003.


     In  addition  to   the   accelerated   depreciation   allowed   for
     manufacturing assets in terms of the  2002  budget,  government  is
     considering further measures aimed at expanding  capital  formation
     and  technology  research  and  development.  Measures  to  support
     savings by lower income groups are also being considered.


     A budget deficit of 2,2 per cent of GDP is projected for the  2003-
     04 financial year, projected to fall to 2 per cent in 2005-06.
 2.5 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework


     The 2003 MTEF has the following priorities:


     * Extending social assistance, health and education
     * Investing in municipal infrastructure and basic services
     * Expanding capacity  in  the  safety  and  security  sector,  with
       particular focus on court administration
     * Higher education restructuring
     * Accelerating land reform and restitution
     * Better services to citizens provided by Home Affairs
     * South Africa's growing international role, notably in  Nepad  and
       the AU


     The  preliminary  budget  framework  proposes  R84,9   billion   in
     additional allocations over the 2002 MTEF baseline amounts.  Social
     and  basic  service  delivery  is   prioritised,   with   provinces
     receiving the largest adjustments -  a  further  R12,3  billion  in
     2003-04, rising to R20,8 billion in  2005-06.  In  relative  terms,
     local government receives the largest increase, at 18,4  per  cent,
     compared with 9 per  cent  for  provinces  and  7,3  per  cent  for
     national departments.


     The 2003 budget will consolidate  and  deepen  the  attainments  of
     expenditure priorities  in  earlier  budgets.  Key  priorities  are
     continued investment in infrastructure,  and  extending  basic  and
     social service  provision  to  reduce  poverty  and  vulnerability.
     Government  aims  to  strengthen  service  delivery  to  the  poor,
     through  higher  rates  of  economic  growth  and  development  and
     through  strengthening   sustainable   interventions   to   achieve
     increased equity and redistribution. The 2003 MTEF  will  therefore
     continue to emphasise spending on infrastructure and improving  the
     quality of social service delivery.


     Stable revenue performance and fiscal prudence  which  has  led  to
     declining debt  service  costs,  has  enabled  Government  to  make
     possible higher levels of non-interest spending  growth,  averaging
     4,7 per cent in real terms over the 2003 MTEF.


 2.6 Provincial and local government finances


     The  supplementary  allocations  to  provinces  will  support   the
     broadening and deepening of social  services.  Increased  financial
     support to provinces will focus on the following programmes:


     * Social grants will continue to  be  adjusted  to  compensate  for
       inflation;
     * A progressive  roll-out  of  HIV/Aids  prevention  and  treatment
       programmes,  together  with  a   renewed   focus   on   sexually
       transmitted infections, TB and malaria treatments;
     * Investment in hospital  buildings  and  facilities,  schools  and
       clinics will continue to be enhanced;
     * Spending on learning support materials  in  schools  and  medical
       supplies in health facilities will be stepped up; and
     * Steady increases in investment in  the  provincial  road  network
       will be supported.


     Capacity  development  which  enables  institutions   to   disburse
     allocations  with  increased  effectiveness  is   an   element   of
     infrastructure building. Allocation to local  government  continues
     the  emphasis  on  municipal  infrastructure  investment  and   the
     broadening  of  access  to  free  basic  water   and   electricity.
     Government rural development and urban renewal  strategies  provide
     a  co-ordinating  framework  for  creating   jobs   and   extending
     development of communities.


     The real growth in government spending on services is  expected  to
     contribute to moderate growth in employment in the years ahead.  An
     amount of R400 million a year has  been  set  aside  for  emergency
     relief for those facing desperate  circumstances  as  a  result  of
     food shortages and food price increases.


 3.  TREASURY DIRECTOR-GENERAL'S PRESENTATION TO JOINT COMMITTEE


     The Director-General of the National Treasury,  Maria  Ramos,  gave
     evidence before the  Joint  Budget  Committee  on  30  October.  In
     overview, the MTBPS was formulated against  the  background  of  an
     unpredictable global economy.  However,  against  this  trend,  the
     South African  economy  has  seen  steady  real  economic  activity
     improvement, despite a marked increase in the inflation rate.


 3.1 Highlights
     The  Director-General  drew  attention  to  the   following   MTBPS
     highlights:


     * The Treasury has revised (GDP) growth forecasts  upwards  to  2,6
       per cent this year, from  the  2,3  per  cent  forecast  in  the
       budget. GDP growth is projected to rise further to 3,5 per  cent
       in 2003-04.
     * The inflation target  for  2002  and  2003  is  projected  to  be
       missed, primarily because of direct and second-stage effects  of
       currency depreciation and oil and food price increases. However,
       the Treasury expects inflation  to  drop  to  within  the  newly
       expanded 3-6 per cent band in the last quarter of 2003.
     * Exchange  control  limits  on  investment  into  Africa  will  be
       increased from R750 million to R2  billion,  in  the  spirit  of
       support  for  Nepad.  Though  further  relaxation  of   exchange
       controls may be possible in the budget, the  government  remains
       committed to a strategy of gradual relaxation.
     * Expenditure will show strong real growth, averaging 4,7 per  cent
       a year over the 2003 MTEF period. Increased spending  on  social
       priorities  is  balanced  with  measures  to  increase  economic
       growth, notably  development  of  infrastructure  and  tax  cuts
       targeted  to  low-  and  middle-income   groups   which   enable
       stimulatory increases in consumption, as well as investment  and
       technology friendly measures.
     * Revenue is again in excess of estimates, with  an  additional  R8
       billion reflecting both South  African  Revenue  Service  (SARS)
       efficiencies and robust company tax performances. In each of the
       coming three years, revenue is projected at just  under  24  per
       cent of GDP.
     *  Revenue  allocation  between  national,  provincial  and   local
       government shows a shift towards the latter  two.  An  important
       element  of  this  involves  developing  local  and   provincial
       capacity to disburse allocated funds.
     *  Budget  priorities  build  on  gains  arising  out  of  previous
       budgets: Social services - health,  education,  plus  water  and
       electricity for  households  -  receive  the  largest  increase,
       followed by crime fighting and  justice,  land  restitution  and
       mainly African international commitments.


 4.  ECONOMISTS' RESPONSES TO CHAPTERS 2, 3 AND 4 OF MTBPS


     Economists from three institutions - JP Morgan,  Mazwai  Securities
     and Sanlam - presented responses to the MTBPS.


     It is important to note that their responses shared several  common
     themes:


     * Each endorsed the trends of  the  medium-term  budget  policy  as
       positive, while submitting input and suggestions  on  particular
       issues.
     * All saw, and endorsed, a shift in policy emphasis whereby  fiscal
       mechanisms play  an  increasing  role  in  combating  inflation,
       rather than using monetary policy alone to lower inflation.
     * All felt that the  deficit  can  be  allowed  to  grow  from  its
       present  low  level,  given  the  principles   which   structure
       expenditure at present.


 4.1. SUBMISSION BY JP MORGAN (JPM)


 4.1.1 MTBPS growth prediction over-optimistic


     JPM  expects  weaker  growth  in  2003  than  the  official  budget
     forecasts. They predict growth at around 2,5 per  cent,  while  the
     MTBPS predicts growth of 3,5 per cent. They believe that the  MTBPS
     growth forecast is optimistic for a number of reasons:


     * Recent monetary tightening is likely to lead  to  a  slowdown  in
       household consumption over the next  12  to  18  months.  Demand
       indicators are already showing signs of a slowdown  (retail  and
       auto sales).
     *  Lower  investment:  both  bond  and  equity   portfolio   flows,
       notoriously volatile, turned negative  in  the  second  half  of
       2002. Outflows have picked up as expected, now that the  Myburgh
       Commission investigation and report are complete.
     * Higher inflation: JPM predicts a further interest  rate  hike  in
       November.
     * The official forecast of 6,4  per  cent  export  growth  in  2003
       looks  difficult  to  achieve  during  subdued   global   growth
       recovery. There has been a strong trade performance in the  past
       10 months thanks to a weak currency, but export  performance  is
       starting to drop off due to an uncertain global outlook.


 4.1.2 Fiscal conservatism


     JPM are disappointed that government has not taken the  opportunity
     to  reduce  the  tax  burden  further,  believing   that   emerging
     economies have a window of opportunity to  do  this  with  positive
     effect at a particular stage of their restructuring.  They  believe
     that government now has plenty of scope to increase expenditure  to
     advance tax reform  and  to  spend  on  infrastructure,  given  the
     capacity  to  absorb  this.  JPM  believes  that  a  larger  fiscal
     stimulus  could  have  been  made  in  the  budget  statement,  but
     government expenditure control remains unnecessarily tight.


     They were generally very positive about government's initiative  to
     move away from regulating inflation  purely  with  monetary  policy
     and to use fiscal mechanisms such  as  reducing  taxes  to  achieve
     their goal of keeping inflation low; however, they felt  that  much
     more was needed.


 4.1.3 Budget deficit is unnecessarily low


     JPM believes that our budget deficit for  2002-03  and  2003-04  is
     unnecessarily tight at 1,6 per cent and 2,2 per cent of GDP,  given
     infrastructure spending and tax reform needs.  High  infrastructure
     spending in the health and education sectors is needed in  emerging
     markets, and ours is very low relative to other  European  emerging
     markets (Czechoslovakia 6,4; Poland 4,4; Hungary  5,3).  We  should
     be spending more. We may  be  missing  our  window  of  opportunity
     because  all  of  our  indicators  are  ripe  now   for   increased
     expenditure.


     It was, however, highlighted  that  although  a  more  expansionary
     fiscal policy was desirable,  this  increased  government  spending
     should  be   carefully   balanced   between   tax   reduction   and
     infrastructure spending because we still need to work on  improving
     institutional capacity to absorb expenditure increases.


 4.1.4 Further inflation overshooting of official forecasts is likely


     JPM believes that inflation will  continue  to  overshoot  official
     targets,  and  therefore  inflation  forecasts  for  2002-03   look
     optimistic,  given  evidence  of  second-round  effects   of   wage
     settlements and broad-based increases in inflation  in  2002.  They
     believe that, given the scale of inflation overshoot in  2002,  and
     to prevent deterioration in inflation  expectations,  the  SARB  is
     likely to increase interest rates by a further percentage point  in
     November. They expect  inflation  to  peak  at  12,2  per  cent  in
     November. Their reasons are as follows:


     * Food price inflation remains a major cause for concern,  and  has
       been increasing steadily at both the producer and consumer level
       in the past year. JPM expects further increases.
     *  Current  inflation  is  broad-based:  although   inflation   was
       initially  driven  by  exogenous  shocks,  it  has  become  very
       widespread.
     * Petrol price increases remain a major risk.
     * More pass-through from the Rand  depreciation  is  a  risk,  both
       directly (although the behaviour of corporate margins makes  the
       extent difficult to predict) and  through  second-round  effects
       via   deterioration   in   inflation   expectations   and   wage
       settlements.


 4.1.5 Revenue collection


     JPM believes that government has been very  cautious  with  revenue
     projections for 2002-03. Growth in government revenue  is  forecast
     to be 10,1 per cent for the year, while JPM expects revenue  growth
     close to 13 per cent due to very strong  growth  in  corporate  tax
     revenue (especially mining) and  strong  retail  sales  which  have
     helped VAT collection and continued improvement in  the  efficiency
     of tax collection.


 4.1.6 Inflation targeting suggestions


     Much of the South African policy regime conforms  to  international
     best practice, but the 2002 experience suggests:


     * More frequent meetings  of  the  Monetary  Policy  Committee  are
       desirable to enable a  rapid  reaction  to  inflation-generating
       shocks. There is uncertainty over inflation forecasting  due  to
       structural change in the economy.
     * More  information  is  required  on  transmission  mechanism  and
       inflation  pass-through  from  Rand  fluctuations   to   improve
       accuracy of predictions.
     * The  SARB  should  have  a  secondary  objective  of  stabilising
       employment; its current escape clauses deal only with shocks.
     * The SARB is correct to have an inflation target of  just  one  to
       two years, and not to forecast too far in  advance,  until  they
       know what is stable.


 4.2 SUBMISSION BY MAZWAI SECURITIES (MS)


     Overall,  MS  sees  the  MTBP  as  positive  for  economic  growth,
     together  with  poverty  relief.   It   believes   a   still   more
     expansionary stance could have been  adopted  without  compromising
     fiscal discipline. MS perceives a seemingly conflicting  stance  in
     relation to inflation targeting, and is concerned that some  issues
     on which the market wanted more information were not addressed.


 4 2.1 Positive overview


     MS welcomed the budget as both providing  for  poverty  relief  and
     pro-growth. The revenue  overrun,  the  low  1,6  per  cent  budget
     deficit and the estimated 41,4 per cent debt to GDP ratio  are  all
     signs of fiscal health. The practical efforts to  meet  expenditure
     objectives are also positive, notably:


     *  Increased  infrastructure  spending  on   public   services   at
       national, local and provincial levels
     * The rise in the ratio of capital to current expenditure
     * Enhancing service delivery by grants for  capacity  building  and
       restructuring


     This budget provides for  increased  expenditure  over  the  medium
     term, with expenditure expected to grow by 4,7 per cent  per  annum
     in real terms over the period. The emphasis on poverty  relief  and
     social security spending is especially welcome as a  step  that  is
     sorely needed  in  poverty  stricken  areas  of  the  country.  The
     emphasis on education, health and improved infrastructure  is  also
     positive. Increased spending should also drive economic growth  and
     social advancement.


     Macroeconomic factors of note:


     * MS is bearish about international equity recovery,  expecting  it
       to stay where it is for the next 12-24 months.
     * On the prospects for the Rand, MS  is  positive,  believing  that
       export-based currencies should outperform others.
     * The issue of long-term capital  investment  prospects  for  South
       Africa is hard to calculate. MS hopes it is seeing the beginning
       of a shift in international investor modalities from  investment
       based on the growth  rate,  to  investment  based  on  the  real
       interest rate, as theory would recommend.


 4.2.2 Budget deficit may be unnecessarily low


     Though  expenditure  is  increasing  and  is  being   directed   to
     government's priority areas, nominal expenditure  growth  decreases
     over the period from 16 per cent between fiscal  years  2001-02  to
     8,5 per cent between 2003-04 and 2004-05. Non-interest  expenditure
     growth also falls from 6,7 per cent to 4,7 per cent in the period.


     MS questions whether a deficit at 1,6 per cent of GDP  is  not  too
     low, given  the  extent  of  socioeconomic  challenges  that  South
     Africa faces. They believe that the country could afford to  borrow
     more, especially in the local  bond  market  which  is  subject  to
     supply pressures,  and  direct  additional  resources  towards  the
     economic upliftment of the people and job creation.


     In such a situation, the deficit should be assessed in relation  to
     real growth, with the deficit  rate  always  kept  below  the  real
     growth rate.


 4.2.3 Concern: fiscal versus monetary policy framework


     Though monetary policy is the  sphere  of  the  Reserve  Bank,  the
     government sets the inflation targets. The increase  in  government
     personnel spending this year was largely due to a 9 per  cent  wage
     hike and the expansionary  stance  taken  by  fiscal  policy.  This
     raises the question of how effectively fiscal policy  supports  the
     desired lower inflation outcome.


     The CPIX inflation forecast in the  MTBP  statement  has  increased
     from 6,7 to 10 per cent this fiscal year,  but  falls  to  4,8  per
     cent in the outer year of the 2003 MTEF period.  MS  believes  that
     this indicates that government is  gearing  itself  up  for  higher
     inflation  than  targeted  in  the  medium  term,  and  will  spend
     likewise. MS fears that there  is  a  danger  that  this  inflation
     scenario could become self-fulfilling  because  spending  has  been
     adjusted  upwards.  MS  therefore   believes   that   this   budget
     adjustment indicates a marginal shift in government policy  towards
     growth and away from low inflation.


 4.2.4 Issues omitted in MTBPS


     There are a number of issues that the market wants  clarity  about,
     which were not addressed in the MTBPS:


     * Privatisation and Telkom: Market consensus  is  that  the  Telkom
       listing at the tabling of the 2002 budget in February is  likely
       to realise less than half of the R12 billion proceeds originally
       expected. The market expected clarity as to  what  the  expected
       proceeds from the IPO would be and  how  National  Treasury  was
       going to make up for the shortfall in funding. This  information
       was not forthcoming.
     * The Arms Procurement deal. The market anticipated  an  update  on
       costs of the arms procurement  deal  and  expectations  thereof.
       This information was also not forthcoming in the statement.
     *  Inflation  Targeting.  Market  participants  were  looking   for
       clarity and predictability on how inflation targets are set, and
       for predictable procedures for  rapid  policy  response  to  any
       shocks in future.  The  market  is  therefore  still  left  with
       uncertainty on how the Reserve Bank will respond  in  future  to
       inflationary crises, and what procedures will be  in  place  for
       this.


 4.3  SUBMISSION BY SANLAM


 4.3.1 Macroeconomic consolidation and growth forecasts


     Sanlam's chief economist commended  the  government's  contribution
     and  commitment  to  growth   in   recent   years,   and   welcomed
     government's  increasingly  expansionary   fiscal   policy.   South
     Africa's fiscal consolidation after the 1998 Asian crisis has  been
     paying off increasingly strongly after 2001.


     Growth rate: Sanlam forecasts 2,7 per cent economic growth  in  the
     2002-03  financial  year,  and  is  cautious  about   the   2003-04
     financial year to be 2,9 per cent, in contrast  to  the  Treasury's
     forecast of 3,5 per cent for next year.   Overall,  Sanlam  expects
     steady growth to continue.


     The private capital spending trend is encouraging,  but  Treasury's
     projected increase in consumption expenditure is  unlikely  in  the
     near future, as the impact of 400 base point  interest  rate  hikes
     experienced this  year  will  be  felt  increasingly  in  the  near
     future. An increase in consumption expenditure is only possible  in
     the third quarter of the 2003-04 financial year.


     Export growth in particular has enabled South Africa  to  buck  the
     world recessionary trend so far. Job losses  have  slowed,  despite
     external shocks  which  have  set  off  a  number  of  second-stage
     inflationary  trends  which  will  result  in  slower  growth  than
     projected by the MTBPS.


 4.3.2 Inflation and exchange rate


     Sanlam believes that current inflation  rates  are  at  their  peak
     with CPIX around 9 per cent. They expect  CPIX  to  decline  to  an
     average of 6 per cent in 2003, falling further to 5,4 per  cent  in
     2004.


     South  Africa's  inflation  targeting  regime  is  set  to   become
     increasingly effective, especially now the band has been  broadened
     to 3-6 per cent, which is realistically attainable. It is  also  an
     appropriate level for an emerging economy which  needs  to  develop
     infrastructure  and  stimulate  poorer   households'   consumption.
     Therefore,  increasing  use  of  fiscal  mechanisms   rather   than
     interest rates to contain inflation, is appropriate.


     Interest rates now are also at a peak, but cannot  be  expected  to
     fall back to pre-shock levels, due to emerging economy dynamics.
     Exchange rate:  The  volatility,  and  hence  unpredictability,  of
     South Africa's exchange  rate  is  a  major  problem.  The  current
     balance between currencies seems in South Africa's  best  interest,
     and the Rand outlook is steady, although in world terms the  Dollar
     is 20% overvalued in the view of a number of economists.


 4.3.3 SA trends compared to other economies


     Sanlam compared South Africa's GDP  growth  and  that  of  the  USA
     after 1994. South Africa's growth, though volatile  in  comparison,
     stands up well, with only five quarters  of  negative  growth  over
     the period.
     It then  compared  South  Africa's  growth  experience  with  other
     emerging economies in  Asia,  South  America  and  Eastern  Europe,
     based on the IMF World Economic Outlook, May 2002.  On  average  it
     found South Africa's economic growth to have been the least  rapid,
     but it was also the least volatile - the most steady of the  eleven
     compared.


     Recent fall-offs in equity investment in  South  Africa  of  course
     reflects the bursting of  the  technology  bubble,  a  slowdown  in
     world growth  and  concern  with  corporate  accountability  making
     investors increasingly  bearish.  South  Africa's  Mining  Charter,
     Financial  Charter  and  Community  Re-investment  Bill  have  also
     caused foreign equity investors to "vote with their feet".


 4.3.4 Key macroeconomic policy shifts


     * The shift in priorities from inflation containment  via  interest
       rates to growth is positive.
     * The inflation target is now realistic, and the secular  inflation
       decline trend is intact.
     *  However,  further  structural  decline  in  inflation  will   be
       difficult to achieve in this context.


 4.3.5 Productivity and savings structurally important


     Sanlam noted that productivity increases to date had  come  at  the
     expense of job losses. They  are,  however,  positive  that  steady
     economic growth will in future create  more  jobs,  although  these
     are likely to be in the skilled sectors.


     Their other concern  is  the  lack  of  skilled  labour,  and  they
     accordingly endorse government's  strategic  investment  programmes
     and the introduction of learnership allowances.


 4.3.6 Supporting savings/investment


     The MTBPS intention to promote both a culture of  saving,  and  its
     present work on a support strategy for increased access to  deposit
     facilities by the poor is important, since tax relief alone  cannot
     encourage savings by poor and remote households.  Further  measures
     are required.


     However,  tax  policy  on  the  retirement  industry  is  seen   as
     regressive by Sanlam. Although its introduction has been  postponed
     till next year, Sanlam's view is  that  the  proposed  regime  will
     also discourage people from savings.


     Further relaxation of exchange controls is also important for  this
     purpose.


 Report to be considered. 3.    Report of the  Standing  Committee  on  Private  Members'  Legislative
 Proposals and Special Petitions on Petition of Mrs  M  Botha,  dated  8
 November 2002:


     The Standing Committee on Private  Members'  Legislative  Proposals
     and Special Petitions, having considered  the  petition  of  Mrs  M
     Botha, referred to it, and reports as follows:


          That Mrs M Botha be granted a pension of R2 353,48 per  month,
          starting from 1 December 2002.


 Report to be considered.

1. Report on Activities of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, November 2001 - October 2002, dated 30 October 2002:

   The rules of Parliament provide for Portfolio Committees, inter alia, (1) to deal with legislation referred to them by the House, including hearing from interested parties and proposing amendments; (2) to oversee the work of the corresponding Ministry and government department; and (3) to make policy proposals. The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry has been active at all of these levels. It has been responsible for processing bills introduced by the Minister of Trade and Industry, which has frequently involved holding public hearings and proposing amendments. Together with the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs in the National Council of Provinces, with which the Committee has worked closely, a number of oversight and monitoring activities were initiated. Regular briefings on the work of the various divisions of the Department of Trade and Industry and associated structures have also been organised.

   Representatives of the eight parties represented in the National Assembly have been deployed to the Committee. The Chairperson is Dr Rob Davies of the ANC. Mr Edgar de Koker is the Control Committee Secretary, Ms Lungi Matshikiza the Committee Secretary and Mr Martiens Erasmus the Committee Assistant. Mr Ekhsaan Jawoodien of the Parliamentary Research Unit has provided research assistance.

   1. Statistics

      The Portfolio Committee met 46 times during Parliamentary sessions held between November 2001 and October 2002, in addition to meetings held during two oversight visits to the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) in Tshwane. Seven Bills were presented to the Committee. In addition to formal reports in connection with bills, the Committee tabled three reports that were published in the Announcements, Tabling and Committee Reports (ATC) bulletin in the course of the year. Minister Alec Erwin participated in two committee meetings, Director-General Dr Alistair Ruiters in six, and several other DTI officials in others.

   2. Legislation

      Seven Bills were referred to the Committee during the course of the year. The following is a summary of the main provisions of the legislation referred to the Committee:

      Copyright and Performers Protection Amendment Bills (B73 and B74-2001) - concluded and enacted during 2002) Provides for neighbouring right (“needle time”) royalty payments to performers in the music industry and for the regulation of collecting societies.

      Export Credit and Foreign Investments Re-Insurance Amendment Bill (B29-2002) Amends certain definitions and provisions to provide greater legal certainty to the operations of the Export Credit Agency in managing long-term political risk insurance for South African companies involved in projects abroad.

      Corporate Laws Amendment Bill (B32-2002) Provides for electronic payment of fees by companies and close corporations; requires the submission of an annual return by companies and close corporations to enable the Companies and Intellectual Property Registration Office (CIPRO) to update its data base.

      International Trade Administration Bill (B38-2002) Establishes a Commission on International Trade Administration (CITA) to replace the Board on Tariffs and Trade and provides for CITA to operate in accordance with the provisions of the revised Southern African Customs Union Agreement (when the latter has force of law in South Africa).

      Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill (B63-2002) Provides for protection, particularly of organisers of sporting events from “intrusive” ambush marketing.

      Patents Amendment Bill (B64-2002) Brings South African legislation in line with provisions of the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Law (TRIPS) in permitting research by persons other than a patent holder, particularly in relation to the production of generic pharmaceutical products.

   3. Public hearings and oversight activities initiated by Committee In addition to public hearings in connection with Bills, the Committee, usually in cooperation with the NCOP Select Committee, initiated the following activities:

      Public Hearings on Industrial Policy: This was a highlight of the year’s activities. The hearings followed the publication of the DTI’s policy document, Accelerating Growth and Development: The Contribution of the Integrated Manufacturing Strategy. The Committees’ joint report was published in the ATC Bulletin on 6 June 2002 (p 571 onwards) and a debate on the report was held in the National Assembly on 21 June, after which the Report was adopted by the House.

      A Workshop on Small Business Strategy: This was held at the DTI’s headquarters in Tshwane ahead of the finalisation of the Department’s small business policy document.

      Meetings with Department, IDC, Khula, Ntsiki and CSIR in connection with 2002-03 budget: A feature of the Committee’s budgetary oversight this year was that it went much further and was more extensive than in previous years. Among other things, we received at our request, and engaged with, a detailed report on the extent to which the Department had achieved the output targets set for it in the 2001-02 budget.

      National Lottery distribution and Lotteries policy: Two meetings on this matter were held, jointly with the Social Development Portfolio Committee. Both attracted considerable public attention.

   4. Ministerial and departmental briefings Briefings from the Ministry, Department and associated institutions covered a wide range of topics, and for the first time the Committee interacted in the course of the year with the Department and all institutions that participate in the Council of Trade and Industry Institutions (COTII). Some highlights of these meetings included:

      Briefings and discussions on preparations for World Trade Organisation negotiations, as well as on other major regional and bilateral trade issues;

      Revisions to small business strategy;

      Ports policy as an element of micro-economic reform strategy; and

      Oversight of Industrial Participation Projects arising from Strategic Defence Procurement Programme.

   5. Departmental visits

      The Committee paid two oversight visits to the Department in Tshwane during the year. These visits, which we have undertaken for some years now, allow for a particularly productive exchange of views and effective monitoring of activities of the Department.

   6. Reports published

      In addition to formal reports on bills, the following reports were prepared and published in the ATC:

      Report on Findings and Recommendations in “Joint Investigating Report into the Strategic Defence Procurements Packages (RP 184/2001)”, Chapter 12, ATC Bulletin, 10 December 2001, adopted by the National Assembly, 13 August 2002.

      Report of Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on Budget Vote 31, dated 8 May 2002, ATC Bulletin, 13 May 2002, p 381.

      Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on public hearings on Industrial Policy, dated 5 June 2002, ATC Bulletin, 6 June 2002, adopted by National Assembly 21 June 2002.

   7. In conclusion

      2002 has been another busy and productive year for the Committee. Several briefings on key policy papers which had been planned have, however, had to be held over to next year. These include briefings on:

      • Black Economic Empowerment Strategy document
      • Small Business Strategy document
      • Employment Strategy
      • Access to Finance
      • Consumer Protection Policy

      Several Bills that were intended to be presented to the Committee this year have also been held over.

      The Committee’s thanks and appreciation are due to a number of people who facilitated our work during the course of the year: the Minister, Deputy Minister and Director-General, who were always supportive and available; the Chairperson and members of the NCOP Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, with whom we worked closely throughout the year; the Chairperson of Committees and the Chief Whip, who responded positively to a number of requests; all those who participated in our activities, and especially to numerous officials of the DTI and associated institutions with whom we interacted; and Saroj Naidoo and Johan Strydom, officials responsible for Parliamentary Liaison and Legal Services, respectively, who ensured that communication with the Department and the organisation of Bills and other meetings proceeded smoothly.