THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:04.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council, I shall move:

That the Council notes -

 that the bottom line of the DA (Diminishing Alliance) scoreboard of
 losses reads as follows:


   Minus New NP
   Minus Western Cape Province
   Minus Western Cape legislature
   Minus Cape Town Unicity
   Minus more than a dozen municipal councils
   Minus more than 300 councillors countrywide
   Minus numerous supporters, donors and voters,

and that this outflow still continues.

                MUNICIPAL COUNCILLORS RETAINED BY DA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, I wish to move without notice:

That the Council notes that the DA has retained more than 1 000 councillors, whereas the New NP has managed … [Interjections.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, on a point of order … [Interjections.] A similar motion was tabled yesterday, and the Rules do not allow us to move … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Why do you not allow her to read the motion in full? Then we will be able to compare. She must first read the motion in full. Would you read the motion, hon member? [Interjections.]

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, the hon member’s judgment has been clouded by reality. I want to repeat:

… that the DA has retained more than 1 000 councillors countrywide, whereas the New NP has only managed to buy back 230, a price which the ANC will pay in the end. In the meantime, all they have achieved is to give up control. By taking away their majority control, these few members have handed to the voters something contrary to what they voted for.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order, hon members! Can I ask the New NP and the DP to come to order. [Interjections.]

Hon member, that motion has been tabled. It is still on record and so your motion today is out of order. [Interjections.]

            MEETING OF UN ECONOMIC COMMISSION FOR AFRICA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms S N NTLABATI: Chairperson … [Interjections.] Please protect me, Chairperson. I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with approval the arrival of more than sixty African finance and economic ministers, hundreds of influential global and civil society representatives in Johannesburg over the next few days for the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa’s thirty-first session of African Ministers of Finance, Planning and Economic Development;

(2) further notes that -

   (a)  the summit is another concrete step towards realising the
       economic, social and developmental objectives of Nepad;


   (b)  representation at the summit by the overwhelming majority of
       African nations demonstrates commitment and support to ensure
       progress in the implementation of the principles of good
       economic governance under Nepad; and


   (c)  Africa recognises the importance of bringing about improvement
       in the quality of life of her citizens;

(3) also notes that the summit will be officially opened by President Thabo Mbeki, who is one of the architects responsible for conceptualising, proposing and drafting the original documents that resulted in Nepad; and

(4) believes that the summit will further enhance our country’s image as a place where reconciliation of nations can indeed be realised.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                      REMEMBERING BABY TSHEPANG

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) recognises that on 27 October it will be exactly a year since the Northern Cape, South Africa and the world were shocked and horrified by the brutal and inexcusable rape of the nine-month-old Baby Tshepang;

(2) notes that she was totally unaware of the part she was playing and the price she was paying with her physical pain - we honour her, pray for her and wish her well;

(3) further notes that in the same town, Upington, a talented poet emerged from the Coloured community who published her first book of verse only this week and donated the very first copy to someone in this Council, who has a passion for the Afrikaans language, although it is her third language, but also as a symbol of reconciliation to someone who not only has a physically strong voice, but also a strong spiritual voice - Rev Chabaku;

(4) takes note of the poem in Khalahari Afrikaans that honours Baby Tshepang:

     Tshepang, Wonderbare hoop
     engel kindjie teer
     wreed deur
     sonde onteer
     bring hoop vir verbryseldes
     bevryding vir mishandeldes
     dogter van hoop
     deur
     wreedheid gedoop
     engele onskuld gekneus
     laat 'n wond wat nooit genees
     lank sal ons wonder
     hoekom is
     jy uitgesonder
     juweel in 'n kroon
     ontvang die sonde loon

(5) congratulates the poet Claryné Freeman-Barends …

[Time expired.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, your motion will now become notice of a motion and will be printed in full on the next Order Paper.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, may I request that we vote on the motion, please?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): We are not voting on the motion. Your time expired before you finished.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: I did finish, Chairperson. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): No, you did not. You were stopped.

                        RULE OF ANTICIPATION

                              (Ruling)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I would like to draw hon members’ attention to what happened in the plenary of 15 October 2002. The hon member Van Niekerk moved a motion without notice regarding the official translation of the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Amendment Bill, which was going to be considered by the National Assembly on 16 October 2002.

As the officer presiding at the time, I indicated that I wanted to give a considered ruling as to whether the motion transgressed the rule of anticipation or not. In terms of NCOP Rule 49(2):

In determining whether an address to the Council is out of order on the ground of anticipation, the officer presiding must consider whether it is probable that the matter anticipated will be discussed in the Council within a reasonable time.

The Bill was going to be considered by the National Assembly on 16 October

1. That meant that as soon as the Bill was finalised by the Assembly, it would immediately be submitted to the National Council of Provinces. The Bill could, at the very earliest, be before the Council on the evening of 16 October. The Bill would then be referred to the relevant select committee.

According to the current NCOP programme, the Bill is scheduled to be considered at the NCOP plenary on 7 November 2002. I am therefore of the opinion that it is likely that the Bill will be discussed in the NCOP as it is already in the programme and therefore that 7 November is a reasonable time. Therefore Mr Van Niekerk’s motion anticipated the discussion of the matter and is therefore out of order.

I thought I needed to give that ruling before we proceeded.

RATIFICATION OF DECISION OF JOINT SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE JOINT PROGRAMME
                              COMMITTEE
                         (Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Ms M P Themba): Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council ratifies the decision the Joint Subcommittee of the Joint Programme Committee adopted on 15 October 2002 in accordance with Joint Rule 216(2), namely that the National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 62 - 2002] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76) be fast-tracked by, where necessary, shortening any period within which any step in the legislative process relating to the Bill must be completed, in order to make it possible for the Bill to be passed by the adjournment of the current Parliamentary session (see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 15 October 2002, p 1589).

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               NATIONAL CONVENTIONAL ARMS CONTROL BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs thereon) The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, before I begin I just want to once more acknowledge the visible transformation that is happening in this House. Just entering the House itself, I could see the new symbols, the new images, and indeed I am proud to be part of this new democracy. [Applause.] I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate you, Deputy Chairperson, on the confidence that our Parliament has entrusted you with by nominating you as the candidate for the position of Public Protector. [Applause.]

In introducing this debate in this House, I wish to begin by quoting our President, Thabo Mbeki, when he spoke at the launch of the African Union in Durban in July. He said the following:

Time has come to end the marginalisation of Africa. We must work for peace, security and stability. We must end the senseless wars and conflicts that have caused so much pain and suffering.

This Bill reflects our basic commitment as a country to human rights and international peace. It fits into the Nepad framework that makes peace, security and stability part of the renewal of our continent. The African responsibilities and African promises within Nepad are peace, democracy and good governance. These are not just promises to the West, as some have said, but promises to the people of Africa, because they uphold and reflect our own commitment to the rights of Africans; to dignity, justice and ultimately a better life.

Since 1994 our Government has played a pivotal role in promoting a rigorous arms control policy within the country and worldwide. Whereas in the past our weapons were used to fuel wars and destabilise the region, the new Government has embarked on a programme of creating a new order that prioritises human rights and the promotion of international peace. The Government has written these values into much of its work, including the drafting of the White Paper on Defence and the Defence Review. The very establishment of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee of Cabinet and the destruction of surplus weapons in the SA Police Service and the SA National Defence Force were to demonstrate our attachments to these values.

Internationally our Government has worked the above values into a number of treaties. These include the Phelindaba Treaty that declared Africa a nuclear weapon-free zone, the Oslo Convention that banned landmines and also the UN Conference that was held in New York in July last year that framed the first internationally accepted norms for controlling trade in small arms. Clearly, these are not just stands in principle. They are a practical commitment expressed in our country’s determination to do whatever we can to help end the wars on our continent.

Today’s debate in the National Council of Provinces marks a milestone in the history of our country’s young democracy. By passing this law South Africa continues to provide the moral and political leadership that the world has come to expect. We are debating an extremely important piece of legislation, which will put into law South Africa’s commitment to peace by regulating the arms trade.

The National Conventional Arms Control Bill provides a mechanism to ensure our country’s compliance with Government policy in respect of arms control, and to ensure the implementation of a legitimate, effective and transparent control process. It ensures this by the appointment of a Minister who is not from a security-related portfolio as chairperson of the committee. This tradition will be continued in the new committee. The appointment of an independent inspectorate with wide-ranging powers is another example of the Government’s commitment to make sure that the arms trade is regulated effectively.

Essentially South Africa’s arms control regime has emerged from two major sources. Firstly, it relates to the ANC’s long tradition and participation in nonproliferation and arms control initiatives under the auspices of the United Nations and other international bodies. Secondly, it has emerged from the ANC’s links with countries around the world that have experienced the disastrous consequences of the irresponsible and uncontrolled transfer of arms.

Let me remind hon members of this House that the NCACC has its immediate origin in the recommendations of the Cameron commission, which investigated the irregular shipment of dangerous weapons to Yemen. Our Government has committed itself to working towards a regional approach to security. This common regional approach, based on human security, goes beyond the traditional narrow understanding of state security and encompasses issues of socioeconomic development. It entails the establishment of a regional arms register and a regional control mechanism for regulating the flow of arms in our region. It entails regional co-operation on issues of arms transfer and the illegal proliferation of small arms.

The NCACC was set up to ensure compliance with Government policy in respect of arms control to ensure the implementation of a legitimate, effective and transparent control process. I want to stress the word ``transparent’’, as it is clearly stated in the Bill that there will be reports to Parliament - members of this House will be able to look at those reports - to ensure that members of Parliament are kept informed about what decisions have been made by this committee.

The Bill goes into detail regarding other aspects in terms of how this committee is going to work. I want to emphasise one aspect with reference to clause 15, where the guiding principles are spelt out. The criteria in terms of which the committee will make its decisions are clearly set out. In terms of these criteria the issue of a track record in terms of respect for human rights is clearly entrenched in this Bill, for those countries that will be requesting to trade in arms. Furthermore, I want to emphasise that this Bill ensures that dealing in arms, including that of private citizens of this country, is regulated. This Bill is the first of its kind. This has never happened before. I therefore think that, as we debate this Bill, we must keep in mind the important role that our country is playing in providing moral and political leadership.

I hope and believe that members of this House will vote in favour of this Bill. By supporting this Bill we shall all be committing ourselves to ensuring that when this legislation comes into effect as law, we shall all be vigilant and will monitor that not a single person, even in the private sector, fails to respect and follow its dictates.

In conclusion, I want to say that indeed members of this House are going to be actively involved in ensuring that South Africa does remain committed to the notion of a responsible arms industry operating in our country.

I want to thank members of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs and the department, whose members are represented here, for the hard work that they have put into producing this legislation. I look forward to this House passing this Bill. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, prior to 1994 our arms export industry, led by Armscor, was virtually given a free hand in pursuing arms markets that often turned out to be located where gross human rights abuses were taking place.

After 1994 the democratically elected Government appointed the Cameron commission of inquiry, as stated by the Deputy Minister. Its purpose was to investigate South African arms export practices and propose reforms that would bring our arms export policies into line with the new human rights framework established by our democratic Constitution.

In August 1995, following recommendations made by the Cameron commission, Cabinet approved an interim arms control policy underpinned by the following principles: No weapons will be supplied to parties that systematically violate or suppress human rights. Government will not transfer arms that are likely to be used to violate human rights or suppress fundamental freedoms, even where persistent abuses have not been established. Government will avoid arms exports if there is a risk that such exports are likely to escalate regional conflicts or contribute to regional instability. Government will consider other factors, such as internal armed conflict or tensions in a recipient country, in its arms export decisions. Government will exercise restraint with regard to arms transfers, including taking into consideration general human rights conditions in the recipient countries and the existence of internal or regional tensions or armed conflicts.

An interdepartmental Cabinet committee, the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, was then established to implement the policy, with Professor Kader Asmal as the head of that committee. The principles and norms of the new arms trade policies were also incorporated into the White Paper on Defence and the White Paper on the South African Defence-Related Industries, published in 1996 and 1999 respectively. In 1998, the Government began work on new legislation to replace the Armaments Development and Production Act of 1968, the so-called ``Armscor Act’’, and provide a statutory framework for the work of the NCACC.

In three areas in particular, South Africa has taken a firm position regarding the control of conventional weapons consistent with its own policy on human rights, namely: banning antipersonnel landmines, curbing the spread and abuse of small arms and controlling the activities of mercenaries.

Our postapartheid government was one of the most active in promoting the global process that ultimately led to the signing in Ottawa in December 1997 of the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Antipersonnel Mines and on their Destruction - the antipersonnel mines ban treaty.

South Africa has also become a driving force in international efforts to contain the scourge of small arms. Operation Rachel is an ongoing campaign, in co-operation with Mozambique, to trace and destroy arms caches. A new Firearms Control Act has been implemented. In line with the constitutional provision that prohibits South African citizens from participating in armed conflicts either nationally or internationally, the Government passed the Regulation of Foreign Military Assistance Act to limit and control the activities of mercenaries. This Bill is a continuation of the commitment our Government has shown in the struggle to control the spread of conventional weapons. The NCACC consist of Ministers and Deputy Ministers appointed by the President and any other persons the President deems fit. Its primary function is to ensure effective control over the export, import, conveyance, manufacture, marketing or trading of conventional arms. This is done by considering applications and issuing permits for the export, import, conveyance, manufacture, marketing or trading of conventional arms. That is very important.

The NCACC may also establish any number of subcommittees consisting of members of the committee to assist in the work of the NCACC. A secretariat consisting of Public Service employees appointed by the Minister of Defence in consultation with the Secretary of Defence must assist the committee or any of its subcommittees with administrative support.

The Bill also envisages the appointment of inspectors to assist the committee in ensuring that trade in conventional arms is conducted in compliance with the Act. Inspectors will act as the mechanism through which compliance with the Act will be enforced. To this end the inspectors will have the power to conduct routine inspections and search or seize items on premises with or without a warrant where there is reason to believe that conventional arms are being developed, manufactured, imported, exported, or marketed in contravention of the Act.

In conclusion, I firmly believe that this Bill compares favourably with conventional arms control legislation in other jurisdictions. In some respects it goes even further than the comparable legislation in some developed countries, such as Spain, where parliamentary oversight is limited and end-user certificates are not obligatory. This Bill is a critical tool in our armour to curb the number of weapons of war and to establish a more responsible attitude towards the spread of these weapons.

I want to thank all parties who participated in our deliberations, even the DP, who said yesterday that they had some concerns, but would be sympathetic when it came to voting, because they were also patriotic, and would vote with us.

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, our vote has nothing to do with patriotism. [Laughter.]

An HON MEMBER: The opposite is true.

Mr J L THERON: Please listen to the reasons that I have here. Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the National Conventional Arms Control Bill intends to establish the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, the NCACC, referred to as ``the committee’’, to ensure the implementation of an effective and transparent control process with regard to the export of conventional arms.

The committee was established, not by the prudence of the Government, but due to the Cameron commission, which was appointed to study the issue of how to exercise control over abuse relating to the export of conventional arms.

The Bill attempts to control and not promote the export of conventional arms by prescribing the relevant application procedures to be submitted to the committee for approval. Clause 23 of the Bill provides for compliance by the committee with the annual reporting requirements set by the United Nations Register of Conventional Arms and for it to present a copy of South Africa’s annual report to the United Nations to be tabled in Parliament. This Bill deals mainly with conventional arms designed or manufactured for use in war. The definition also includes any component, equipment, system, processes and technology of whatever nature capable of being used in the design'' of the aforementioned goods and, thirdly,dual-use goods’’. Weapons of mass destruction as defined in the Non-Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction Act and firearms regulated in terms of the Firearms Control Act of 2000 are excluded from the operation of this Bill.

It is thus clear that three totally different regimes operate with regard to the export of arms in general, being conventional arms, weapons of mass destruction and firearms in terms of the Firearms Control Act. It has apparently been indicated by the Minister of Defence that the passage of this Bill will be subject to a review within 12 months as to whether a centralised structure needs to deal with the export of all arms, as mentioned earlier. This undertaking stands to be tested.

It furthermore makes provision for obligatory quarterly reports to be submitted to Cabinet, and to a committee determined by Parliament, on all conventional arms exports concluded during the preceding quarter. More importantly, it also provides that the parliamentary committee, as contemplated above, be provided, at the end of each quarter, with a list of all pending applications for permits to enter into a contract to export conventional arms which the committee is likely to approve.

The committee is furthermore compelled to consider any recommendations by the parliamentary committee that a permit ought to be denied in respect of a particular application on the grounds that the export would be inconsistent with the set of principles contained in clause 15, as referred to by the Deputy Minister. Clause 15 contains guiding principles and criteria against which applications should be considered by the Committee. These principles are, inter alia, the national security interests of the Republic, avoiding any contribution to internal repression in countries to which exports are to be undertaken, avoiding transfers of conventional arms to governments that systematically violate or suppress human rights and fundamental freedoms, and avoiding the export of conventional arms that may be used for purposes other than the legitimate defence and security needs of the government of the country of import.

However, as noted, the issues mentioned in the third and fourth paragraphs of this speech, in terms whereof the DA granted its support to the Bill, have subsequently been altered dramatically by the portfolio committee. Due to the intervention by the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Education, Kader Asmal, in his capacity as chairperson of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, the revised Bill has changed to such an extent that it cannot be supported by the DA or the DP.

The result is that any form of oversight and accountability by the executive to the parliamentary committee has been reduced to one where no influence can be exercised in terms of the export of armaments. The contents of the Bill are also in contradiction to the principles guided by the Cameron commission, which eventually led to the adoption of legislation in an attempt to control such exports. However, a lack of proper oversight would not enhance the underlying purpose of this Bill. It is therefore proposed that the Bill not be supported.

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members and hon special delegates, the White Paper on Defence is largely based on the new interim policy on arms control,se \B Z Zulu\ which was approved by Cabinet on 30 August 1995. The White Paper established a number of principles and guidelines governing conventional arms trade. It also deals with the import and export of conventional arms and the transit of arms through South Africa. It provides for the control process and a permit system under the auspices of a Cabinet committee, called the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, which shall be subject to oversight by the relevant parliamentary committees.

The National Conventional Arms Control Committee consists of Ministers and Deputy Ministers and oversees policy by setting control measures and mechanisms for the South African arms trade. It ensures that the arms trade conforms to internationally accepted practices. Companies that are interested in exporting arms therefore have to apply for export permits, after which the Ministry of Defence processes the application. The application is thereafter referred to the various directors-general for comment, after which the committee makes the final decision, and not the Ministers. An independent inspectorate ensures that all levels of the process are subject to independent supervision and scrutiny, and that they are conducted in accordance with the policies and guidelines of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee. The inspectorate submits periodic reports to the standing committee on defence in Parliament.

This Bill also encompasses the principles of openness and transparency relating to arms trade and they will only be limited by national security interests. New arms control measures are based on the principles of the UN Charter, hence the redrafting of certain clauses of the Bill. It is also based on international law, recognised international arms control systems and a balance of economic, ethical, political, military and security considerations.

This Bill in essence carries out the decision of the Cabinet that the National Conventional Arms Control Committee should be set up in terms of a statute, with clear terms of reference. Therefore this Bill aims to formally establish this committee, which already exists and has been doing a commendable job, and which also has to ensure compliance with the policy of the Government in respect of arms control. This legislative form of the policy contained in the White Paper will enable this committee to ensure the implementation of a legitimate, effective and transparent control process, which will foster national and international confidence in arms control procedures. Surely South Africa, having acted as a peace broker in countries such as Burundi and others in Africa, cannot be seen to be rescinding these principles or dragging its feet in the implementation of this Bill.

With this Bill, it is envisaged that, as South Africa, we will promote and exercise due restraint in the transfer of conventional arms and related technologies by taking into account such factors as respect for human rights, the international security situation and the degree to which arms sales are supportive of South Africa’s national and foreign interests. South Africa will not be able to transfer arms to countries that systematically violate or suppress human rights and fundamental freedoms.

South Africa therefore avoids trade and transfers that would be likely to be used for purposes other than the legitimate defence and security needs of the recipient country. The Bill also provides for consideration of cases where political, social, cultural, religious and legal rights are seriously and systematically violated by the authorities of that country when evaluating arms sales. [Applause.]

Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Defence and colleagues, the purpose of this Bill is, in a nutshell, to prohibit the movement of conventional weapons over the borders of South Africa without a permit; in other words, to effect a tight control over the trade, whether it is import or export, of conventional arms and weapons of war in such a way that it conforms to international law, norms and practices. Amongst other things, it enables the South African Government to carry out its commitment to a policy of nonproliferation, disarmament and arms control and covers all weapons of mass destruction, also extending to concerns relating to the proliferation of conventional weapons.

Die Nuwe NP het reeds op ‘n vroeë stadium ons kommer oor ‘n inherente fout in die wetsontwerp uitgespreek, naamlik dat dit slegs vir ‘n retrospektiewe oorsig deur die Parlement voorsiening maak. Die Parlement sal kragtens die bepalings van die wetsontwerp soos hy nou staan slegs in kennis gestel word van wapentransaksies wat reeds afgehandel is. Ons sou graag wou sien dat die moontlikheid bestaan dat die Parlement die hek kan toemaak voordat die perd weggehardloop het.

Soos ek egter reeds gesê het, is dit ondenkbaar dat Suid-Afrika nie aksie sal neem nie wat daarop gerig is om die proliferasie van wapens te voorkom wat tot ons eie nadeel en dié van ons bondgenote kan wees.

Die basiese beginsels van hierdie wetsontwerp is duidelik daarop gerig om wapens uit die hande te hou vir lande en groeperings wat streeks- en wêreldvrede kan bedreig. Dit blyk onomwonde uit onder meer die volgende kriteria, naamlik dat die nasionale en soewereine veiligheidsbelange van Suid-Afrika en sy bondgenote beskerm word; dat enige bydrae tot binnelandse onderdrukking en sistematiese skending van menseregte en basiese vryhede met behulp van wapens voorkom word; dat die oordrag van konvensionele wapens wat moontlik tot die eskalering van streekskonflikte kan bydra en destabiliserende militêre optrede in ander lande tot gevolg kan hê, vermy word; en dat enige bydrae tot terrorisme en misdaad voorkom word; maar dat daar terselfdertyd ook in ag geneem word dat enige soewereine staat die inherente reg het om homself kragtens die Verenigde Nasies se handves te verdedig en dat uitgevoerde wapens en militêre toerusting slegs vir die wettige verdedigings- en veiligheidsdoeleindes van ‘n invoerland aangewend sal word.

‘n Omvattende reeks reëls en regulasies wat deur die Nasionale Konvensionele Wapenbeheerkomitee aangewend sal word om uitvoering aan hierdie beginsels en beleidsriglyne te gee, word in die wetsontwerp vervat.

Die Nuwe NP steun die wetsontwerp. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The New NP has already at an earlier stage expressed its concern about an inherent flow in the Bill, namely that it only makes provision for a retrospective review by Parliament. In terms of the provisions of the Bill as it now stands, Parliament will only be informed of arms transactions that have already been concluded. We would like to see the possibility existing that Parliament could close the gate before the horse has bolted.

However, as I have already said, it is unthinkable that South Africa will not take action that is aimed at preventing the proliferation of weapons that could be to our own detriment and that of our allies.

The basic principles of this Bill are clearly aimed at keeping weapons out of the hands of countries and groupings that could jeopardise regional and world peace. This is clear inter alia, from the following criteria, namely that the national and sovereign safety interests of South Africa and its allies be protected; that any contribution to domestic oppression and systematic violation of human rights and basic freedoms be prevented with the assistance of weapons; that the transfer of conventional weapons that could possibly contribute to the escalation of regional conflicts and lead to destabilising military action in other countries be avoided; and that any contribution to terrorism and crime be prevented; but that at the same time it should also be taken into account that any sovereign state has the inherent right to defend itself in terms of the United Nations’ charter and that exported weapons and military equipment will only be utilised for the legal defence and safety purposes of an importing country.

A comprehensive series of rules and regulations that will be utilised by the National Conventional Arms Control Committee to execute these principles and policy guidelines is contained in the Bill.

The New NP supports the Bill. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): I take this opportunity to welcome the special delegates from KwaZulu-Natal.

Mnu V B NDLOVU (KwaZulu-Natal): Sihlalo neNdlu ehloniphekileyo, mhlonishwa iSekela likaNgqongqoshe namalungu onke omkhandlu waleNdlu, kungukuthokoza kwami kokuqala ukuthi ngidlulise ukukubongela ukuba ukwazi ukuthi ucoshe isikhundla esinye esingaphezu kwalesi onaso ukuze ukwazi ukuthi uyobheka ukuthi amalungelo ethu ahamba kahle yini. Siyakubongela Sihlalo sengathi iNkosi ingakusiza. (Translation of isiZulu Paragraph follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson and honourable House, hon Deputy Minister and all the members of the Council, firstly I would like to congratulate the Chairperson on being offered the higher position, which will enable him to check whether our rights are well protected. Congratulations, may God be with you!]

It is a great honour for me to have an input on this Bill. I was involved in constructing and modifying this legislation a long time ago. The Bill, as we are debating it today, has gone through so many phases. I therefore want to thank two hon members in particular: Kgoshi Mokoena, who is the chairperson of the select committee of this House, and the member Thandi Modise, who was the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Defence when I was there. They were the driving forces behind this Bill as it stands today.

The Bill has been crafted in a manner that everybody will understand and follow, whichever way a person wishes to follow it. The object of the committee is quite clear. Clause 3(a) of Chapter 1 is very clear to the members of the committee. What is required, in terms of that paragraph, is the end result. If the committee does something different from what is needed, it will not be fulfilling the mandate of Government and not be conforming to the international norms and standards as the Bill dictates.

As for the functions of the committee, those set out in clause 4(1)(f), (g) and (h) are very important for the committee to follow. At the end of the day the register, permits and reports will be inspected in order to fulfil the checks and balances of the Government, bearing in mind that there will be a report for Parliament to approve and another for the Cabinet to approve. Therefore there are checks and balances on this matter. Clause 6(4) states:

The Committee may refer any matter to be considered by it to the Cabinet for a resolution, which resolution binds the Committee.

I am of the opinion and convinced that everything that will be discussed by the committee will end up with the Cabinet. Therefore all matters to be discussed by the committee have to have the approval of the Cabinet or Parliament, because if we do not do that, people will end up selling arms without telling us about what they are doing. Therefore we cannot - I repeat, we cannot - allow the committee to discuss matters of arms and conventional arms and not have a Cabinet resolution thereafter. We will be creating something that we are trying to avoid. I am raising a concern here about the establishment of the secretariat. The committee has to request the Public Service and administration for full- time staff in order to streamline the work of the committee, which is prescribed by the Bill. Therefore the employment of an outside person to the President’s committee may jeopardise the established code of Cabinet workings. That should be looked into carefully because under ``Secretariat’’ the Bill says that a person can be employed from outside the structures of government. I therefore request the Minister to ensure that the Secretariat has a full-time establishment and is controllable.

Clause 16, on ``Accountability where conventional arms are exported’’, is, as a whole, very, very important. If this paragraph is not followed properly, mistakes will be made which can cause shame to this country. Therefore the checks and balances and supervision regarding this paragraph need to be done thoroughly.

Lastly, with regard to the disclosure and nondisclosure of information, dealt with in clause 23 of the Bill, again I am requesting that the committee to be established follow it to the letter. Parliament needs to know who and when and how many, as the clause dictates. The paragraph itself is a guiding principle for the committee not to allow anybody to sell arms to an individual and then let South Africa be condemned for that stupid action at the end of the day.

As I will say next time, not all Bills can be 100% perfect. But at the end of the day there are Bills that can stand the sun and the rain. It is my honour, therefore, to say that KwaZulu-Natal will support the Bill. [Applause.]

Ms J L KGOALI: Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, our special delegates from KwaZulu-Natal and colleagues, firstly I would like to respond to my colleague here from Gauteng, the hon Theron. The word ``patriotic’’ is an English word, but the DP does not understand it. That is why they will continue reacting negatively to some other things that are important. We talk to them now, and they agree; tomorrow they will disagree. [Interjections.]

The Bill that we are debating today emanates from a comprehensive policy framework that resulted in the creation of a White Paper on Defence in

1. It is one of the pillars that strengthen our democracy. The Cabinet memorandum on the rationale and proposed principles governing conventional arms control, which was adopted as the basis of the White Paper, requires that conventional armaments and related technology may not be imported, transferred through South Africa or marketed or exported abroad without any approved permit. I think the hon member Ndlovu has indicated that. The application shall be subject to a multidepartmental review process. The National Conventional Arms Control Committee will serve as a ministerial control, policy and decision-making authority.

An independent inspectorate will be established to ensure that all levels of the process are subject to scrutiny and oversight. But I want to say to the hon the Minister that we actually have to look into clause 18 of the Bill, which limits the inspectorate to office hours. This is something that we have raised in order to say that the department must consider looking into the matter and saying what is to happen after hours, because izinto zenzakala ngobusuku [things happen at night]. When we wake up in the morning, we wake up with something else.

The White Paper states that South Africa is committed to the international cause of nonproliferation of weapons of mass destruction, such as nuclear, biological and chemical weapons and related technology, as well as advanced missile systems and missiles as defined by the missile technology control regime.

The Bill takes the policy contained in the White Paper further. Firstly, it does this by translating the Cabinet decision that the National Conventional Arms Control Committee should be set up in terms of statute, with clear terms of reference. In other words, this Bill establishes the National Conventional Arms Control Committee as a statutory body that will ensure compliance with the policy of the Government in respect of arms control. Clause 5, which deals with the composition of the committee, does not say how many members the committee must have, but the Bill goes on to state that a quorum will be constituted by four members. This means that we need to stipulate the number of people who will constitute that committee.

Secondly, the principles stated in the White Paper on Defence are in alignment with the NCACC rationale and those principles have, in this Bill, been translated into the core principles. These principles state that the Government will, when evaluating arms sales, take the following into account: the internal and regional situation in the recipient country in the light of existing tensions or armed conflict; the record of compliance of the recipient country with regard to international arms control agreements and treaties; the nature and cost of the arms to be transferred in relation to the circumstances of the recipient country, including its legitimate security and defence needs and the objective of the least diversion of human and economic resources for armaments; and the degree to which arms sales are supportive of South Africa’s national and core interests. Most of all, the Government be guided by the respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms in the recipient country and will consider cases where the political, social, cultural, religious and legal rights are seriously and systematically violated by the authorities of that particular country.

This Bill, in essence, is a guideline governing conventional arms trade in this country, as laid down in the White Paper. It requires that principles of openness and transparency relating to arms trade shall apply and will only be limited by national security interests. The import and export of conventional arms and the transit of arms through South Africa shall be subject to a control process and permit system under the auspices of a statutory Cabinet committee, the NCACC, which shall be subject to oversight by the relevant parliamentary committees.

We in the ANC support the Bill in its entirety, with only those issues to be clarified. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you again, Chairperson. Let me start by thanking all the members who have participated in this debate for their input and insights which, obviously, have helped to enrich the Bill. I also want to particularly single out the chairperson of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, Kgosi Mokoena, for the stewardship and the leadership he has given to his committee. I thank the other members of the committee.

It is a pity, though, that one member of the House, and a party represented in this House, has decided not vote with the rest of the House. This is not unusual, and it might be a reflection of the state of health of this party called the Democratic Alliance. I think it actually does need to visit a doctor so that it can be examined, to see what is happening to this alliance. Is it a death alliance, or what alliance is it? [Interjections.] Just to correct the record, the hon member Theron says that this Bill, or the NCACC, did not come about as a result of the prudence of Government. I just want to assure this member that our Government does govern on the basis of principle, and not prudence, as he puts it. May I also just mention specifically that the commission that he talks about, the Cameron commission, was established by former President Mandela, and it was established and funded by Government. So I do not understand what he is talking about, when in fact it was this very Government that established the commission. Let me also say that the committee itself, which has been operating for a number of years, was established even before the commission reported. I just wanted to correct that.

In terms of what he said with regard to the other sets of legislation that regulate arms in this country, indeed the regulatory bodies that regulate the arms in this country work closely with each other, and there is co- operation. For example, the police are represented on the NCACC and they report to the NCACC.

Indeed, while there may be a situation where there are different regulatory bodies, they talk to each other. The commitment that the Minister of Defence made is indeed a serious commitment, and I would ask the member to trust that the Minister of Defence meant what he said. Unfortunately the member is not listening, but for the record, this has been said.

On the question that he mentions on the basis of which he is not going to vote with the rest of this House, I would like again to put on record - and I am grateful to the rest of the members of this House, because they understand the separation of powers between the legislature and the executive - that the part of the Bill that the member refers to was removed precisely because it was just not workable. There is an executive and there is a legislature, and the executive cannot begin to do its work before it actually says to Parliament,``These are the applications we have received. Can you look at them and tell us whether or not you approve this or that’’.

Indeed, the Bill, as it stands now, does allow for Parliament to actually look at the decisions of the executive, because that is its role; it is the task of Parliament to oversee the work of the executive, not to do the work of the executive. May I carry on to thank hon member Ndlovu from KwaZulu-Natal, because he actually was, as he correctly put it, part of the processes that led to the finalisation of this Bill. I think it is appropriate that he is here today to see the conclusion of the work that he began together with Kgoshi Mokoena and the hon Thandi Modise. [Interjections.] Again I want to thank members of the House.

Regarding the comments that were made by hon member Joyce Kgoali, indeed I will convey this to the Minister and we will see how we deal with the areas that she has mentioned as a concern.

I may indicate to the House that since this committee has been operating for some time now, and we have the directorate, which is supporting and working with the committee, we have had situations where in fact we have had to stop the process of going ahead with a permit where we have seen that there is a violation of the regulations. We have actually conducted the inspections with the help of the Secretary for Defence. We have already had this experience and we think this will enrich the work of the committee.

With regard to the composition of the committee, again this is a matter for the President to decide. He has the discretion to decide on the composition and the number of the committee, but I just want to say that this committee has actually managed to meet monthly without much hindrance. I think the issue of the quorum is important, but this committee has been able to meet and take decisions. As the hon Ndlovu has said, it reports to Cabinet, and Cabinet therefore knows what the committee is doing.

I just want to thank all the members for participating in the debate and you, Chairperson, for helping guide the discussions. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): I will have to defer taking a decision on this matter because there is no quorum in the House. So I will defer it until much later.

Decision of Question postponed.

Mr G A LUCAS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon Raju to read a newspaper while the Deputy Minister is speaking? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Reading a newspaper in the House is strictly not allowed. If you are doing so, make sure that you are not.

May I warn members to stay in the Chamber? Members are just coming and going. I ask the Whips to make sure that members stay in the Chamber. They just come for a minute and then disappear, and that really interrupts the proceedings of this House.

                            DEFENCE BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson and hon members, on reflecting on the process that the Defence Bill followed, one would note the enormity of the task involved in transforming the National Defence Force that accompanied it. The Ministry initially forwarded the Bill seven years ago, in 1995, but for various reasons it was held up while nearing completion.

The delay in the completion of the legislation was necessitated by the need to achieve a balance between Government’s defence policy in a democracy and the feasibility of implementing such an ambitious but commendable policy. I am proud to say that this Bill has achieved that. This Bill provides the framework within which a military force operates, deploys its troops, is funded and interacts with civil society and other states. The delay can also be attributed to the introduction of the new rules for accounting officers in line with the Public Finance Management Act, or PFMA. This called for the chapter in the Bill on the responsibilities of the Secretary for Defence to be amended and aligned with the new envisaged Act. This, on its own, was a daunting task.

Whilst the Bill is designed primarily around a defensive posture and based on peace and security perspectives, we have to realise that the Department of Defence must stand ready to respond to other actions - for example, various deployments in peace establishment, peace enforcement and support as indicated by our foreign policy. The length of time it has taken to draw up the Bill reflects the enormity of the task of defence and the complexity of the process of such a law.

The old Defence Act, which was written in the late 1950s, reflected a strategic position suitable to a defence force at the height of the apartheid regime. It is for that reason that only a few aspects of the old Act could be retained, while the rest had to be amended to reflect a defence posture that has been transformed from offensive to defensive in line with democratic values. The practical implications of the defence posture finds expression in the Bill.

Discussions regarding the formulation of a new Act were begun before 1994. They were followed through the constitutional deliberations before the formation of the Transitional Executive Council.

Negotiations around defence and the change in policy as articulated in the White Paper on Defence were instrumental in the decision to draw up a new Bill and not to further amend the 1957 Act. However, there were some changes that could not wait for the rewriting of the Bill. The most important of all the changes introduced in 1994 was that relating to civil oversight and the creation of the Defence Secretariat. The first amendment to the 1957 Act accommodated the Defence Secretariat, and the second amendment placed the Secretary for Defence not just as an accounting officer, but also as the head of department.

Again, the Department of Defence had to align itself with the legislation from the Public Service. The status of uniformed members of the SA National Defence Force subsequently also had to be aligned with Public Service legislation. Despite all the good work done in preparing this legislation, there are some areas that remain and are still under debate. These include the issue of military unions, military versus constitutional justice and clear lines of authority and power. They are still in the process of transformation and growth. This Bill itself delineates the components of the Department of Defence and sets out their functions.

Chapter 4 deals with the law-enforcement powers of the Defence Force at sea, and is in line with international laws governing maritime affairs and procedures. Chapters 5 and 6 deal in turn with the appointment and functions of military police and the Intelligence Division of Defence. Chapter 7 deals with what could be referred to as the myriad of structures, the hierarchy through which decision-making takes place in the department. Provision is also made for the Reserve Force Council. This provision ensures that attention is given to the Reserve Force.

Chapters 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 primarily centre around individual members and how they function within the institution of defence. Chapter 14 deals with conditions around a state of national defence, Chapter 15 with co- operation with other forces and forces visiting South Africa, Chapter 16 with boards of inquiry and Chapter 17 with offences and penalties.

It should be a matter of pride to all us to know that despite the absence of this new Act, the Department of Defence was able to achieve much and take positive strides as far as transformation is concerned. We no longer see only tough macho men driving our armoured vehicles; a number of women perform this function too. We also have a black woman commander of a battalion.

The winds of change started blowing through the African continent in the early 1960s, and the last few years have seen South Africa being able to live in peace and harmony with our neighbours. Our Defence Force won international popularity when its members assisted in the devastating floods in Mozambique and is respected for its peacekeeping role in several African countries. We have also been able to integrate a number of antagonistic armed forces into one Defence Force in a few years and have established other programmes such as the Masibambisane campaign as part of our commitment to keeping members of our force healthy and to addressing the issue of HIV and Aids, among others.

I see this Bill as a supplement to the great work that has already been done to focus the SANDF to face the challenges of our country and continent. In this regard I want to salute our former Minister of Defence, the late Mr Modise, and his Deputy Ronnie Casrils for having steered our Defence Force in the direction that it has taken, which has made us proud.

Because this Bill embraces such a huge area, in line with reality, there will always be changes and amendments to be made. These should be made in a manner that provides stability in the defence environment without rigidity.

I would like to thank all the members of parliamentary committees, including this select committee, who took part and contributed to this process, and, of course, all the members of the Department of Defence, who stuck with the Bill through thick and thin. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, there are a few issues to be highlighted as to why we have this important legislation before us.

It is important to recognise that an adequate defence organisation is an insurance policy against unpredictable contingencies. Whilst there is no obvious external aggressor, the situation within our country and its subcontinental region poses many potential threats arising from chronic underdevelopment, poverty, disease, unemployment, refugee problems and an acute debt crisis.

Those phenomena are not confined to national borders and can spill over to impact upon South African defence resources. This situation demands interstate … [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Can you go to the next microphone, Kgoshi?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Let me go to my subjects. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, I knew I was powerful, but I did not know that I could go that far. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

This situation demands interstate co-operation, and South Africa must develop a multilateral common security approach in the region, and that is what we seek to address with this Bill.

In this Bill the separation of powers between the Secretary for Defence and the Chief of the SA National Defence Force has been clearly defined. The Minister’s adviser on policy issues is the Secretary for Defence, whilst the Chief of the SANDF is the adviser on military matters and commands the SANDF.

This Bill seeks to repeal the Defence Act of 1957, except for the provision in respect of military discipline, which will be dealt with in a separate piece of legislation, and to provide for the defence of the Republic.

The department’s planning will be based on the following operational scenarios: The department must contribute to international security, peace, stability and development. Global opportunities must be utilised to improve relations with other states. The prime area of concern and involvement for the department is sub-Saharan Africa. The department should contribute as a partner in regional security through the Southern African Interstate Defence and Security Committee.

One of the most important features in this Bill is the law-enforcement power of the Defence Force at sea, as regulated by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. It provides that the Chief of the Defence Force, with the concurrence of the Minister of Defence, may authorise the use of any military aircraft of the Defence Force or any warship of the Defence Force for the purpose of enforcing any provision of South African law at sea, such as piracy, the seizure of pirate ships or aircraft, the right of visit on the high seas by warships of the Defence Force, the hot pursuit of ships, etc.

This Bill also provides for procedures and mobilisation during a state of national defence. The President may, by proclamation in the Gazette, declare a state of national defence as provided by section 203 of the Constitution of South Africa, in a case where the sovereignty of the Republic is threatened by war, including biological or chemical warfare or invasion, armed attack or armed conflict, or is being invaded.

The Bill also stipulates that persons contracted for service will be obliged to remain in the service during a time of war, a state of national defence or a state of emergency. This prescription is contained in the White Paper on Defence and stresses the fact that membership of the force must be voluntary, and as such the President may authorise the mobilisation of persons for service in the Defence Force if it is necessary to supplement the number of serving members.

This Bill covers a wide range of issues. I have only dealt with those that I felt worth mentioning. Whilst we are sitting comfortably in well-decorated chairs or offices, in warm houses, in our swinging or revolving chairs, let us think of those dedicated members of our Defence Force who, whether it is raining, hot, cold or windy, are patrolling our borders and our streets, and, most importantly, are peacekeepers in some countries on the continent. They deserve our praise. They need our support.

Let me conclude by thanking all parties. In this case, there was no somersaulting and they promised me that they were going to give their support in toto. On that note we support the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I am not sure whether this failure of the sound system is the way the DA in front of me is fighting back … [Laughter.] … but there is no way that they will be able to quieten us.

It is a pity that the hon the Minister of Defence is not here today, because I wanted to ask him a specific question, but I am sure the Deputy Minister will be able to answer it. I remember that during the apartheid era, when Ministers of defence took the salute at official parades, they used to wear these funny hats. But I also remember how, when the hon the Minister was Chairperson of this House, he showed his loyalty to the heritage of his forefathers by wearing his traditional blanket and Sotho hat. By that he was not only showing that he was really proud of what he had inherited but also displaying his respect for the diversity we have in the country, and I know that those two qualities are worth much more than all the Defence Acts, or even defence forces, that we might have. But the question I wanted to ask him was whether he wears that when he takes the salute at official parades as well.

But coming back to this Bill, I want to deal with a few aspects of a very comprehensive piece of legislation. One fundamental principle apparent in the Bill is that the rights of the SANDF’s members are protected in a fair and reasonable way.

The Defence structure is not a law unto itself. The respective councils, boards and other mechanisms ensure open and fair compensation to all its members without compromising the discipline and requirements of the Defence Force. The Defence Force is focused on defence and trained for just that and will be used for that. Maar weens die omvang van die wet moet aanvaar word dat praktiese probleme kan ontstaan by die toepassing daarvan en dat die nodige wysigings dan aangebring sal moet word.

Ek wil aksent plaas op ‘n paar aspekte, en die eerste is die samestelling van die Departement van Verdediging. ‘n Duidelike onderskeid word gemaak tussen ‘n burgerlike rol, die skerp kant van die Weermag, en hulpdienste. Dit manifesteer in die vestiging van ‘n Verdedigingsekretariaat en ‘n Nasionale Weermag onder afsonderlike hoofde. Beide die Sekretaris van Verdediging en die Hoof van die SANW rapporteer aan die Minister. Die Sekretaris van Verdediging mag nie ‘n lid van die Weermag wees nie. Hy het spesifieke gedelegeerde magte en verantwoordelikhede. Die sekretaris is die hoof uitvoerende beampte in terme van wetgewing rakende die bestuur van openbare fondse.

Volgens die Grondwet is die Weermag verantwoordelik om paraat te wees om die Republiek teen alle moontlike bedreigings te beskerm. Dit noodsaak dat wapentuig, magspeile en opleiding so moet wees dat dit enige waarskynlike bedreiging, sekere risikos in ag genome, die hoof kan bied.

Die verdeling van funksies tussen die sekretariaat en die Weermag stel egter eise aan verhoudings. Dit verg toegewyde kommunikasiemeganismes en -strukture om misverstande te voorkom. Aanduidings is dat daar maar van tyd tot tyd spanning tussen die verskillende komponente is. Die burgerlike dimensie in die Weermag het ook voordele deurdat die Weermag nie meer ‘n reg in sy eie is nie.

Die tweede aspek is die eenmagkonsep. Voorsiening word gemaak vir voltydse- en reserwemagte binne ‘n eenmagkonsep. Dit beteken dat alle lede eenders behandel word. Lede van die reserwemag is vrywilligers en in ander beroepe, maar moet beskikbaar wees vir magsuitbreiding indien nodig en moet gevolglik ten volle opgelei wees vir die geïdentifiseerde take en moontlike bedreigings.

Die konsep gaan noodwendig addisionele druk plaas op die reeds beperkte operasionele fondse. Lede moet gewerf word, opgelei word en uitgereik word met uniforms en ander uitrusting. Hulle moet in staat wees om hulle taak te kan doen. Hulle is ‘n integrale deel van die SANW en nie ‘n mag op hulle eie nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [But as a result of the extent of the Act we should accept that practical problems may arise with the implementation thereof and that the necessary amendments will then have to be effected.

I would like to accentuate a few aspects and the first is the composition of the Department of Defence. A clear distinction is being made between a civic role, the sharp side of the Defence Force, and auxiliary services. This manifests in the establishment of a Defence Secretariat and a National Defence Force under separate heads. Both the Secretary for Defence and the Chief of the SANDF report to the Minister. The Secretary for Defence cannot be a member of the Defence Force. He has specific delegated powers and responsibilities. The Secretary is the Chief Executive Officer in terms of legislation pertaining to the management of public funds.

According to the Constitution the Defence Force is responsible for being ready to protect the Republic against any possible threats. This necessitates that weaponry, force levels and training be such that it would be able to resist any probable threats, taking into account certain risks. The divisions of functions between the Secretariat and the Defence Force, however, puts certain demands on relationships. This requires dedicated communication mechanisms and communication structures to prevent misunderstandings. Indications are that from time to time there are tension between the different components. The civic dimension in the Defence Force also has advantages in that the Defence Force is no longer a law unto itself.

The second aspect is the concept of one force. Provision is being made for full-time forces and reserve forces within a concept of one force. This means that all members are treated equally. Members of the reserve force are volunteers and in other occupations, but must be available for expansion of power if necessary and should therefore be fully trained for the identified tasks and possible threats.

This concept will necessarily place additional pressure on the already limited operational funds. Members must be recruited, trained and issued with uniforms and other equipment. They must be able to perform their task. They are an integral part of the SANDF and not a force on their own.] In addition to employment - and this is the third point I want to accentuate - as anticipated in the Constitution, the Defence Force may be deployed under prescribed rules to assist other departments and to effect national border control. A clear distinction is drawn between border control for crime prevention, a responsibility of the SAPS and done in support of the SAPS, and national border control to protect the integrity of the RSA, which is the responsibility of the SANDF.

The last point I want to touch on is law-enforcement powers. Under special circumstances, military vehicles and personnel of the Defence Force may be used to enforce provincial and national laws. The general rule, however, is that Defence personnel do not have law-enforcement powers. I want to repeat that: The general rule, however, is that Defence personnel do not have law- enforcement powers. They act in support of the other departments. Military police, however, have law-enforcement powers, in respect of members of the Defence Force.

The rest has already been said. This really is a well-thought-through, comprehensive piece of legislation and the New NP will support it. UmNtwana B Z ZULU: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe namalungu ale Ndlu, lo mthetho obekwe lapha phambi kwethu namhlanje, kulo mKhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe, wenzelwe ukuqondisa nokuhlela imisebenzi yomNyango wezokuVikela kwamasosha kanye nokusebenza komabhalane bomNyango wezokuVikela. Lokhu kuthathe isikhathi eside ukufinyelela kukho futhi bekunzima ukwakha uhlobo lomButho kaZwelonke wezokuVikela olungahlinzekela ukuphatha nokulungisa umbutho onamakhono okufeza izidingo zomThethosisekelo wezwe laseNingizimu Afrika. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Prince B Z ZULU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and members of this House, the law before us today, in this National Council of Provinces, is aimed at directing and administering the tasks of soldiers and clerks of the Department of Defence. It has taken very long to reach this stage and it has been difficult to mould a National Defence Force which can make provisions for administering and preparing the type of a National Defence Force which would have skills to fulfil the constitutional obligations of South Africa.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, on point of order: With respect, I would like to say that we want to listen to what the hon prince is saying, but there is no interpreting service.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Van Niekerk, the mistake is on the speakers’ list because the language indicated there is English only. I request that the hon member should continue. [Interjections.] Hon Krumbock, I am talking to the hon Van Niekerk.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, out of respect for the prince, I would want him to continue, but I want it to be noted that this system is only six months old. This is appalling and it is not acceptable. It must be corrected.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I do sympathise and I agree with all of what you have said. Hon member, you may continue. [Interjections.]

UmNtwana B Z ZULU: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Thina njengezakhamizi zaseNingizimu Afrika sinokuziqhenya okukhulu ngalesi sakhiwo somButho wezokuVikela kaZwelonke. Isakhiwo lesi sombutho esiziqhayisa ngaso esiphethwe uJenene Nyanda. Lo mbutho unokubumbana futhi wakhelwe phezu kwesisekelo esisha somoya wobunye womphakathi ohlangene waseNingizimu Afrika.

Ngithi kumhlonishwa iPhini likaNgqongqoshe … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Prince B Z ZULU: Thank you, Chairperson. We, as South African citizens are very proud of this National Defence Force. This Defence Force for which we are proud is under the command of General Nyanda. This army is united and is built on a new foundation through a spirit of togetherness of South African society.

I would like to say to the hon Deputy Minister … ]

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to ask whether it is in order for Mr Raju to continue reading the newspaper. He has just thrown it back there.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: It is out of order. Please continue, hon member. I will deal with Mr Raju. [Interjections.] Mr Raju, will you please sit down.

UmNtwana B Z ZULU: Sihlalo, lona ngumButho wezokuVikela okuthi nanxa unezinkinga zokungabi nazinto ezanele zokusebenza kepha ongakaze wehluleke ukwenza umsebenzi wawo wokuvikela izwe laseNingizimu Afrika kanye nezakhamizi zalo.

Okunye okubalulekiyo okwenziwa yilo mbutho ukungena uthi shi ekuletheni nasekusekeleni izinhlelo zoxolo nokuthula ezingeni lomhlaba njengoba kade uqaphile nje ezweni laseBurundi. Nangaphezu kwalokho, ngumButho wezokuVikela lona okhombise ukuzinikela okungenamkhawulo ezinhlelweni zawo njengalezi ezilandelayo: ukwesekela umNyango wezamaphoyisa ukuba ukwazi ukugcina ukuphepha nokuthula ezimeni ezingaphezu kwamandla awo; ukuvikela abantu baseNingizimu Afrika ekuvoteni kwabo kwesibili ngokuthula noxolo; ukufaka kwawo isandla ekusizeni imiphakathi yaleli zwe ngezikhathi ezinzima lapho uhlaselwe zikhukhula ezasibekela yonke ingxenye yaseMzansi Afrika; nokwelekelela nangezikhathi kuhlasele imililo ezifundazweni ezinjengaKwaZulu-Natali, Freyisitata, Mpumalanga kanye naseMpumalanga Koloni.

INingizimu Afrika ibonakala ikhula idlondlobala ekuthatheni indawo yayo ezingeni lomhlaba ngenxa yobuholi bayo kanye nendlela umButho wethu wezokuVikela osebenza ngayo. Amazwe omhlaba abophezele iNingizimu Afrika ukuba ibambe iqhaza elisemqoka elingeze laba yimpumelelo ngaphandle kokwesekelwa umButho wezokuVikela. Ukubeka isibonelo esisodwa kulokhu: Kuthe ngoLwesibili mhla ka-15 sikuyo le Ndlu yavumelana ukushicilela phansi ukuba uHulumeni waseNingizimu Afrika agunyaze ukusebenza kwesivumelwano seNhlangano yeziZwe esiwumthetho wokuvikela imvelo engumnotho wasolwandle ozinhlanzi.

Leso sivumelwano sibophezela ukuba iNingizimu Afrika ivimbele ukudotshwa kwezinhlanzi ngabantu abangenazo izimvume zokwenza njalo kanye nezikebhe ezivela ngaphandle kwemingcele yezwe lethu. Abantu abazokwenza lesi sivumelwano sisebenze ngumButho wezokuVikela kaZwelonke. Ngakho, kuyinto esemqoka ukuba umButho wethu wezokuVikela kaZwelonke nawo ubophezeleke ekusebenzeni ngaphansi komThethosisekelo wezwe kanye nowamazwe omhlaba ukufeza inhloso yezivumelwano zomhlaba esizigunyazayo kule Ndlu.

Akuyona into esingayifihla lapha ukuthi umThetho wezokuVikela owawusebenza ngesikhathi sobandlululo sewuphelelwe yisikhathi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.) [Prince B Z ZULU: Chairperson, this is a Defence Force which even though it is inadequately resourced but has never failed to execute its duty of defending South Africa and its citizens.

Another important role of this Defence Force is that it is fully involved in bringing about and supporting international peace missions such as its monitoring role in Burundi. Moreover, this is a Defence Force which has shown unlimited dedication in carrying out its programmes such as the following: providing support to the Department of Safety and Security to enable it to fulfil its role of keeping peace and safety in situations where it cannot cope by itself; protecting South Africans so that they could vote peacefully in the second general election; assisting the communities of this country during difficult times of massive floods which engulfed the whole Southern Africa; and assisting during the spate of runaway fires in provinces such as KwaZulu-Natal, Free State, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape.

South Africa is growing in leaps and bounds and is taking its rightful place among international communities because of its leadership and the professional manner in which our Defence Force executes its role. International communities have committed South Africa to playing a crucial role which cannot be successful without the support of the Defence Force. For example, on Tuesday 15, this House agreed to be a signatory to South Africa’s authorisation of a United Nations convention regarding the protection of marine life.

That convention commits South Africa to prevent unlicensed fishing by people who do not have permits and also to prevent foreign fishing boats from fishing in our waters. It is only the National Defence Force which will make this convention enforceable. Therefore, it is crucial that our National Defence Force should also be committed to being guided by the Constitution of the country and that of international communities in order to fulfil the objectives of the international conventions that we authorise in this House.

We cannot hide the fact that old Defence Act which functioned during the apartheid era is now obsolete.]

The previous Defence Act lacked the new culture, necessary values and guiding principles which the Constitution and the White Paper on Defence demand. The aim of the new culture, values and principles is to instil respect among members of the SANDF for the values of a democratic society. In particular, it aims to ensure that the functioning of the Department of Defence is consistent with the constitutional principles, democratic values and the law; to ensure that the SANDF members treat each other and members of the public with respect; to maintain and enhance military professionalism; to build public confidence and pride in the SANDF; and to build patriotism, loyalty, unity, discipline, morale and combat-readiness within the SANDF. Being a relic of our apartheid history, the old Defence Act could never succeed in cultivating such a new culture.

Many people have argued that the transformation of the old SANDF into a representative institution will come at the expense of combat-readiness and that it will lead to a decline in military discipline and morale, and the lowering of standards. These prophets of doom have been proved quite wrong. What the transformation has, in fact, brought has been a new military force that serves as the shining example of the successful integration of various military formations into a coherent National Defence Force that has proved itself to be ready for any eventuality. [Applause.] Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, I just want to inform my colleague the chairperson of the select committee, Kgoshi Mokoena, that we from the DP and the DA are proudly South African and we are very patriotic about our country. I want to state this in public. [Interjections.]

Notwithstanding the state of the SANDF, we have a Bill before us with which we can agree. The Bill is an attempt to provide the most fundamental basis for the future creation of an effective and an efficient national defence force. Membership of the SANDF will be voluntary. However, persons employed in the SANDF will be obliged to remain in service during time of war, a state of national defence or a state of emergency.

These provisions are equally to be found in most other civilised countries. No compulsory service in terms of conscription is therefore envisaged in terms of the Bill. The Democratic Alliance and the DP support this notion.

It is furthermore important to point out that the Bill also provides for the employment of the SANDF in co-operation with the SA Police Service on a temporary basis only. We are opposed to the permanent employment of the SANDF with the police services in civil society, as this could potentially lead to the militarisation of our community.

This Bill aims to repeal the outdated Defence Act of 1957. It is long overdue and, in certain respects, arguably in contradiction with the Constitution of 1996. On the other hand, it aims to give effect to the Constitution, which states that security forces must be structured and regulated by national legislation.

The Bill furthermore gives effect to the Constitution in that a civilian secretariat for defence must be established in terms whereof accountability is vested within the secretariat and not the SANDF.

This Bill furthermore gives effect to the one-force concept in terms whereof the SANDF comprises both the regular as well as the Reserve Force components. However, in practice it has been proven that this one-force concept is a totally misguided concept. The Reserve Force is at present, with the exclusion of the leadership, nonexistent. Funding of the Reserve Force has also not been forthcoming, with the result that some units have been receiving the meagre sum of approximately R3 000 per month in order to ensure their survival. This is totally unacceptable, because what it is in fact doing is killing off the Reserve Force component under the pretext of a lack of funding.

We in the DA have expressed our concerns time and time again in this respect. Excuses have been made, not only by the department but in particular by the Minister of Defence, for the lack of action taken in this regard.

With regard to the other component of the one-force concept in terms of the Bill, the following: Firstly, we have a defence force which is underfunded. This is a well-known fact to all officers commanding units. Secondly, we have troops of whom approximately 50% are not fit for duty.

An HON MEMBER: Just like you!

Mr J L THERON: I am very fit for duty, thank you. I have recently seen my doctor.

This is due to old age and/or illness, to which HIV/Aids seems to be a major contributor. Thirdly, we have a lack of equipment, vehicles in particular. Fourthly, the circumstances under which our troops are currently living in the units are a total disgrace. During a visit by the defence committee - here I am referring specifically the visit to Tempe, Bloemfontein, during July of 2002 …

Mr M V MOOSA: On a point of order, Chairperson: Will the hon speaker please explain how HIV causes old age? That is what he said in his speech. Maybe he was not listening to his own speech, but some of us do listen. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, you may continue. May I say, it was probably a slip of the tongue.

Mr J L THERON: Thank you, Chairperson, I really think he did not understand what I was saying. I will not respond further to that, thank you.

During a visit by the defence committee - here I am referring specifically the visit to Tempe, Bloemfontein, during July of 2002 - the committee was shown buildings that were in critical need of repair. Buildings in which people have to train need urgent attention while urgent repair is also needed to stores and hangars in order to store important equipment. This has an impact, both on the lack of readiness of personnel and on the life expectancy of equipment.

It is also strange to note that Parliament is dealing with this Bill, the cornerstone of the Department of Defence, while the Defence Review, which needs urgent updating, is still not forthcoming. The Defence Bill should follow policy, the updated Defence Review, and not the other way around. However, what is most worrying is the lack of political will on the part of the Ministry of Defence to address some of these issues.

Although the Bill provides a sound basis on which the SANDF can develop in future, the most crucial factor lies in the will to exercise and fulfil the provisions of this Bill. We have seen many Bills being passed by this Parliament, but very few being effectively implemented.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! There is a point of order.

Ms J L KGOALI: It is not a point of order, Chairperson. I just want to find out whether the hon member will be patriotic enough to take a question. [Interjections.] Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, I am sorry, but I do not take clueless questions. [Interjections.]

Not only in continuation of a disastrous state of affairs, the good intentions of this Bill will be lost should the Minister of Defence continue to manage this department as he has done in the past.

It is proposed that the DP and the DA support this Bill.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I presume that was a slip of the tongue. There is no such party as the DA in this Parliament. [Interjections.]

Mr V B NDLOVU (KwaZulu-Natal): Chair, Deputy Minister and hon members, firstly I would like to convey my condolences on the passing of four members of the armed forces while they were training in Bujumbura, Burundi, last week. It was a tragedy of God’s making and nobody can be blamed for it. Our condolences go to the families, relatives and friends of the deceased. We are with them in prayer.

When it comes to the Defence Bill, there is not much I can say, because I am the last speaker, maybe. The Bill is the product of a long-drawn process that has involved everybody, including myself, since the beginning of 1995, when it was just a piece of paper. It has been drafted in such a manner that nobody can complain that it cannot be understood. It is a straightforward Bill.

What can be perceived as wrong in the Bill is the reference to trade unions within the SANDF, which I and other members of the Portfolio Committee on Defence did not like. We proposed that they should be called associations because they do not have the same leverage that trade unions do in industry as such. I really hope that the abnormality will be rectified in the near future, because it will cause a lot of problems for new members who join the National Defence Force and do not understand how being a member of a trade union is different when one belongs to the Defence Force.

The implementation of the Bill, or most of it, lies in the hands of the Defence Secretariat and its staff. If they follow the dictates of the Bill, they will be able to implement it properly without problems.

A line has been drawn between the two offices, that is the Secretary for Defence and the Chief of the Defence Force, because those lines sometimes blur and one does not know what one is supposed to do. But this Bill makes it quite clear that what will be done by the Secretary for Defence is different from what will be done by the Chief of the Defence Force.

The senior management of the SANDF, namely the Chief of the Defence Force and his assistants, must carry out their responsibility without fail so as to avoid misunderstanding within the army itself.

When this Bill is implemented, the matter of representativity within the army should be solved. As the Deputy Minister said, there are people being brought in now. It must not look as if we are male chauvinists in the army. It must be seen that all genders are represented in it. I am not representing whoever I might be thought to be representing here. I am just referring to gender. [Laughter.]

The problem that should be solved immediately when this Bill is implemented is that of the cultural differences within the army. People must understand that there are people who have to stay at home when their fathers have died. Therefore the differences of culture within the army should be accommodated so that people can understand them immediately, and so that we can get away from the problem of people being called …

Rev M CHABAKU: Madam Chair, on a point of order: I am sorry, but I just wanted an explanation from the hon member speaking. When he spoke of tradition, if I understood him correctly, he said that the tradition should allow our soldiers to remain at home when their fathers have died, I want to know what happens when their mothers have died. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Please continue, hon member. The point has been taken. [Interjections.]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Nami angazi-ke uma umshini ungasafuni … [I don’t know what to do now that the machines does not want to function …]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, you may continue with your speech. Mr V B NDLOVU: Inkinga enginayo ukuthi umshini awusebenzi. [Ubuwele-wele.] Hhayi uyasebenza. [Ubuwele-wele.] Musani ukudlala ngami! [Uhleko.] [My problem is that the machine is not working. [Interjections.] No, it is working. [Interjections.] Do not play the fool with me. [Laughter.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: It is some initiation, since today is your first day here.

Mr V B NDLOVU: What I was saying is that we should solve the problem of cultural differences together with other problems that can be brought in when we are implementing this Bill.

The grievance procedure should be oiled so that it is ready for the influx, because this Bill opens the way for everybody to put complaints of whatever form. Therefore the army personnel must be ready when the Bill is implemented so that they are able to respond to the influx of the complaints that will be coming in, if there are any.

The most important thing is the security of our armed personnel who are posted outside South Africa and their perks. When soldiers are sent out of the country, special care should be taken of them. They should not complain about minor things that are easily solved when they are in the country. In other words, the desk that deals with the special soldiers who are deployed outside the country should be able to respond to complaints as soon as they come in, in order to make those people feel at ease and at home even when they are not at home.

The Ministry must not forget that these people represent the country, and the respect they get benefits us as citizens of this country. The same thing applies to them, namely that they should respect themselves and not forget that what they do reflects back on us as a country.

People can complain that this Bill is long or whatever, but the Bill can stand the test of time. It has been worked on for more than five years, and therefore it can really stand the test of time. KwaZulu-Natal supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon members, hon Deputy Minister and special delegates, the Defence Bill is an important development in the ongoing process of fundamentally transforming the old apartheid structures and bringing them in line with the values and principles of our democratic Constitution.

The fundamental principles of our Constitution, which underlies all aspects of democratic governance, are accountability, transparency and civilian oversight.

If one looks at the Defence Bill that is before us here, it is clear that these principles were uppermost in the minds of the national legislature when it deliberated on this Bill, and for good reason too.

Under apartheid, the functions of the Department of Defence were transferred to the headquarters of the old SA Defence Force. This resulted in a situation in which the military became increasingly active in the political and civilian sphere. This bred secrecy and an absence of accountability and also led to the creation of organisations such as the notorious CCB.

The new Defence Bill will make sure that something like this will never be possible again. It also sets out clear lines of accountability for the Minister, who is responsible for the political management, and the Chief of the SANDF, who is responsible for the operational aspects of the National Defence Force.

A very vital aspect, and one that shows the importance that we, as a democratic nation, attach to civilian oversight, is the creation of a Secretary for Defence, who will be the principal adviser on defence policy and the accounting officer for the Department of Defence. The Defence Secretariat will be the organ charged with the responsibility of enhancing civilian control by Parliament over the Department of Defence.

Locating these functions within the Defence Secretariat has a number of advantages, among others that it frees the armed forces of many of their nontraditional functions such as the accounting responsibility and allows them to concentrate on their primary brief, namely the preparation of the Defence Force of the country and its people.

By taking primary responsibility for the co-ordination of defence policy, the secretariat will ensure that a wide range of players - namely the military, Foreign Affairs and other Government departments and civil and political society - are involved in the formulation of defence policy. This ensures that a rich and varied combination of inputs can be received in the formulation of policy.

While we have made great strides in transforming our Defence Force, the transformation is not yet complete. A number of challenges still lie ahead.

To understand these challenges, it is important to first understand that transformation occurs at various levels. Cultural transformation entails the transformation of the culture of the institution in question, the leadership, management and administrative ethos of the institution and the traditions upon which that institution was founded. It also entails the transformation of the value system upon which the institution is based.

On the other hand, human transformation entails the transformation of the composition of the institution with regard to its racial, ethnic, regional and gender composition and its human-resource practices.

Political transformation strives to ensure that the conduct and character of the institution in question conform to the political features of the democracy within which it is located - an acknowledgement of the principle of civil supremacy, the institution of appropriate mechanisms of oversight and control.

Organisational transformation constitutes a more technocratic process within which the organisation in question is rightsized, its management practices and its diverse organisational processes made more cost- effective, and its ability to provide services rendered more efficient.

The Defence Bill before us will be an important guiding instrument in our endeavours to meet these remaining challenges and therefore needs to be supported by all those who want to see a successful conclusion to our transformation process. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Sihlalo, nami ngifuna ukubeka amazwi okukhalisana nokuzwelana nemindeni yala malungu omNyango wethu ashonile kule ngozi eyenzeke eBurundi. [Chairperson, I would like to sympathise with the families of the members of our department who died in the accident that happened in Burundi.]

I would like to inform the House that the Chief of the SANDF has established a board of inquiry to investigate the circumstances leading to the accident that caused the loss of four of our members in Burundi. Among other things we will be looking to see how we can prevent such situations from occurring again. I want to thank the House for the condolences that they have expressed with regard to the loss of these four members.

I also want to thank members of this House again for the very valuable contributions that they have made in the debate on this Bill. In expressing our thanks, may I indicate to the House that indeed the issue of the budget for the Department of Defence is a very difficult one.

I heard a member talking about the lack of commitment from the Ministry of Defence to ensuring that the department is properly equipped. I think it is sad that this member chooses to use those words when, in fact, the Minister of Defence is faced - the country knows about this - with the situation where the budget of the Department of Defence has been reduced from 4% of the GDP to somewhere between 1,5% and 1,7% of the GDP. That is the reality, but that is a decision that was made by Government when looking at other competing needs of the country, because indeed issues around development and the provision of houses and water to those sectors of our communities that had not been catered for in the past were urgent issues that had to be addressed.

It is sometimes very interesting to listen to the DP because they do not always stick to the same position. Not so long ago the DP was complaining about the money that was used to re-equip the navy in the strategic procurement defence packages. But now it seems as if they are not so much in support of that any more. [Interjections.]

With regard to the issue of the reserves I want to say again that this is an area that we are paying attention to now, not because we were not committed to that in the past, but because again within the Defence Force we had to concentrate a lot initially on integrating the regular force. Of course, we know that our force design is such that it relies heavily on a force that can expand rapidly, which means that we have to pay attention to building the reserves.

The new military service which is coming into operation next year, Strategy 2010, is intended precisely to provide a pool from which we will draw members of the Reserve Force. These are people that we are going to train. We are going to be taking large numbers of young people who have passed matric and are between the ages of 18 and 22. They will come to the Defence Force and get skills. They will be trained. This will be a contribution to the skills reservoir of the country, but when they leave the Defence Force they will be available to us to augment our Reserve Force. This is something that we are doing quite clearly to ensure that we indeed support the Reserve Force in doing its duty. We will, of course, be paying particular attention to the budget of the Reserve Force to make sure that they are able to do the things that they are supposed to do.

With regard to the issues that were raised by Kgoshi Mokoena, I think we all agree that security as defined by this Government goes beyond the narrow definition of military security to issues of human security, and I agree with him entirely that these are important issues and that we should look at them from the regional security perspective and that South Africa has a prominent role to play in our region.

The support and praise that has been addressed by this House to our force is indeed appreciated. In fact I just want to say that in 2000, when the Defence Force was celebrating six years of its existence, the President paid a special tribute by dedicating the Freedom Day to speaking at a parade of the National Defence Force in Bloemfontein. I am sure many of us were very moved and proud to see that particular parade. Parliament also paid a special tribute to our forces - two years ago, I think - by organising a special lunch here in Parliament.

With regard to the issue raised by hon Van Niekerk, I would not be able to answer because it was particularly directed to the Minister of Defence on whether he is able to take the salute while wearing his Basotho hat. But perhaps what I may say is that the hon member might have observed that the Minister of Defence is a civilian, so he has a particular way of taking the salute. I think it would be important for him to look at that. What I wanted to add was in terms of the visible transformation, again it would be significant for the hon member to look at how a woman Deputy Minister takes the salute. [Interjections.]

On the issue of the division of functions between the Secretary for Defence and Chief of the SA National Defence Force, indeed I think clarity in this area is important, but I would say that in the time that the Defence Secretariat has been functioning, the tensions that member talks about have been positive tensions. I do not think we should always see tension as negative, and it has helped to actually clarify the distinct roles that the Secretary for Defence and the Chief of SA National Defence Force have to play. As I mentioned in the introduction, clearly the role of the Secretary for Defence has been outlined as that of the head of the department.

The question of a grievance procedure in the Defence Force is something that we have been paying attention to. We are looking at how to actually strengthen this to make sure that we are able to address the issues that the hon member Ndlovu mentioned.

With regard to the issue of military unions, the departmental representative here will be able to take this back to see how we actually clearly structure what it is that we are talking about when we talk about unionisation in the Defence Force, because if it is not clear it can create difficulties.

In relation to the state of the National Defence Force, I think we can say with confidence that the SA National Defence Force is operationally ready to defend our country even though the issues of budget do, of course, as I have indicated, impact on some of the aspects of the service and the conditions of the buildings as the member has pointed out. But this issue has been raised with the Minister of Public Works, whose portfolio it is, as members know, to look after state property and buildings. But I think that has not affected in a negative way the morale of the SA National Defence Force or their readiness to defend the country.

On the issue of calls for the SA National Defence Force to support the police in fighting crime, it has been clearly worked out where the Defence Force is ready, when called upon by the police, to support in fighting crime as well as in rendering humanitarian assistance, as hon Prince Zulu has pointed out. In addition to that we take the secondary function of securing our elections very seriously.

In conclusion, I want to salute members of the Defence Force and again talk about the recent international conferences that were so well secured by members of both the police and the SA National Defence Force. I can inform this House that in fact the level of preparedness for securing our country during these times, and securing international diplomats and people who come to attend these conferences, is very high - to the extent, for example, that during the World Summit on Sustainable Development held in Gauteng recently, we had a unit ready to respond if there was a threat of chemical warfare. That unit was standing ready and waiting in case any such threat came up.

I think we should thank members of our Defence Force and our security services who, as Kgoshi Mokoena said, protect us while we sit in comfort. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Mr M V MOOSA: Madam Chair, in terms of the rules of the NCOP it is not possible for a member to mislead the House. And I am glad that the Minister of Health is here, because she knows that the DA would say anything to bolster their argument on HIV/Aids. Witness this: A member of the DA in the last debate said …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, where are you heading?

Mr M V MOOSA: I am making a point, Madam Chair, about a member who misled the House.

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, on a point of order …

Mr M V MOOSA: Madam Chair, I have the floor.

Mr J L THERON: On a point of order …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: We do not have a rule for a point of order on a point of order. Hon member Theron, can we just listen to what he is saying?

Mr M V MOOSA: I now have a copy of that speech, Madam Chair, and the hon member said the following, and then denied that he had said it. He said: ``This is due to old age and/or illness …’’

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, on a point of order: The member is not allowed to make a statement. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Theron, you will have the chance to answer. You and I both know what he is talking about.

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, the hon member said in his speech, and I will read it verbatim, ``This is due to old age and/or illness, to which HIV/Aids is a major contributor.’’ When I objected to the fact that he had claimed that old age was caused by HIV, I wanted to know how. He said that he had not said that. He had, in fact.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, as I heard it, he was listing a number of things which caused people to leave, and he said Aids was the major one. I made a ruling on this. [Interjections.] Hon Raju, I hope you are not rising on this, as I have made a ruling on it. Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, I just want to offer … [Interjection.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Raju, I hope you are not rising on this matter, because I have made a ruling, in case you were not listening. [Interjections.]

Ms J L KGOALI: Chairperson, the hon Raju must not interfere in the battles of Gauteng. [Interjections.]

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, may we also speak? [Interjections.]

               NATIONAL CONVENTIONAL ARMS CONTROL BILL

                       (Decision of Question)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I had forgotten that for the first Order there was no quorum. I hope we all remember that. Let us proceed now to the voting.

Mr V B NDLOVU (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, what was written here was that we voted for the first one. That was written here. Can you check that, because we were suppose to be voting for the Defence Bill, but we voted for the first one. That is what showed here.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Ndlovu, you may not be aware that this system is new. Now and then, somehow, something just does not print correctly. Please, bear with us. May we now continue with the voting on the first order?

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                  ROAD ACCIDENT FUND AMENDMENT BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Public Services thereon)

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Sihlalo, ngiyabonga kutsi ngitfole lelitfuba lekwetfula lombiko mayelana Nekubuyeketwa Kwemtsetfo locondzene Nesikhwamatimali Setingoti Temgwaco. [Chairperson, I am grateful to be afforded this opportunity to table the report pertaining to the Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill.]

The Road Accident Fund’s purpose is to pay compensation for personal loss or damage wrongfully caused by motor vehicles. It covers medical compensation and loss of support costs. The RAF serves all citizens of South Africa.

The Road Accident Fund is a public entity that functions as an insurance company responsible for processing all road accident third-party claims.

The proposed amendments are an attempt to assist the board in executing its business more effectively. The Minister of Transport, in his speech to the National Assembly on this amending Bill, highlighted a number of problems including a huge increase in the backlog of unresolved claims.

Many of these problems arose as a result of the serious difficulties faced by the Road Accident Fund Board. The difficulties experienced by the board have filtered down to other aspects of the work of the fund and have impacted negatively on its effective operation.

The legal maximum number of members required for the board, in terms of the principal Act, is 12, while the legal minimum required is 11. However, there are currently only nine appointed members because the other two have resigned.

If the legally required minimum is 11 but there are only nine members, this causes uncertainty over the legal status of the decisions taken by the board. It simply becomes handicapped in fulfilling its mandate. This is clearly a problematic situation, which needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

To deal with this situation the amending Bill proposes that the legal minimum of board members be reduced to eight, with 12 still being the legal maximum. This is a very practical solution which will not only resolve any uncertainty that may arise over the legal status of any decision of the board, but also enable the board to continue and move with speed in implementing its functions in the event of occasional vacancies occurring on the board.

Another shortcoming that needs to be corrected in the principal Act is the fact that it does not make provision for the director-general, who is an ex officio member of the board, to designate a representative when he or she is unable to participate or to attend board meetings. This Bill makes provision for the DG to designate a representative to the board.

The proposed amendment also seeks to rectify another oversight in the principal Act, as the current Act does not provide for a process of filling an occasional vacancy on the board. In terms of the amending Bill the Minister of Transport is empowered to appoint a person in the event that such a vacancy arises.

We hope that these amendments will assist the board in dealing with some of the difficulties they have experienced and continuing the excellent work they have done so far.

I must put it on record that at the committee meeting all members, representing all parties, agreed that the Bill should be supported. However, we know that there are chameleons in the ecosystem. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Declarations of vote:

Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, as I indicated in the committee, the New NP is of the opinion that there should not be any distinction between the appointment of a full new board, which takes place every three years, and the filling of an occasional vacancy on the board. We therefore feel strongly that subsection 10(9) of the principal Act remain as it is and oppose the inclusion of subsection 10 in section 10 of the principal Act.

This is a very important board that exercises overall authority and control over the financial position, operation and management of the Road Accident Fund. We are therefore of the opinion that the public and transparent process as prescribed by section 10 of the principal Act should stay as it is, in order to ensure that the best possible board members are appointed, in spite of the fact that it might be more time-consuming.

The time factor should not be a problem, however, as clause 1(b) of the Bill gives more flexibility to section 10(1)(b) of the principal Act, which provides that the board must have at least 11 but not more than 12 members. Clause 1(b) of the Bill provides for an appointed membership of at least eight but not more than 12. In other words, the board can now operate with eight members only. Even if two or three vacancies occur simultaneously, that should not hamper the continuous performance of the board, even if it takes a bit longer.

We are therefore of the opinion that the addition of subsection (10) to section 10 of the principal Act is not desirable. The New NP cannot support the Bill as it stands. [Interjections.]

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, the Road Accident Fund has been fraught with controversy over the decades. As you will know, Chairperson, recently a number of attorneys and other people who had been misusing money from the Road Accident Fund were apprehended and some, in fact, taken to task. I am sure that the New NP is aware of that.

Despite that, the New NP have argued that they do not wish to see a process for changing the leadership as provided for in terms of the Bill. This process is desirable because one cannot have people who become so used to the fund that eventually the fund becomes open to misuse. From that point of view the ANC has felt that it is essential to bring about a change of leadership from time to time in order to keep leadership fresh and accountable. Therefore the ANC supports this Bill.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (New National Party dissenting).

   SOUTH AFRICAN MARITIME AND AERONAUTICAL SEARCH AND RESCUE BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Public Services thereon) The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, at the moment I am the acting Minister of Transport.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: That is noted. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER: Chairperson, chairperson of the select committee, hon members of the committee and hon members of the House, on 1 October 1958 the Department of Transport became responsible for the co-ordination of the South African maritime and aeronautical search and rescue programme and a permanent committee for search and rescue was created. In October 1961 the government widened the scope of the permanent committee and changed its title to the Permanent Executive Committee for Search and Rescue.

I will focus on the two conventions for the provision of search and rescue services in South Africa, which have been incorporated into the Bill. The International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue, commonly known as the search and rescue, or SAR, convention, was adopted at a conference in Hamburg in 1979. The convention was aimed at developing an international search and rescue plan so that no matter where an accident occurred, the rescue of persons in distress would be co-ordinated by a search and rescue organisation and, when necessary, by co-operation between neighbouring search and rescue organisations.

The adoption of this convention saw the Permanent Executive Committee for search and Rescue being changed to the SA Search and Rescue Organisation in keeping with its national character and to identify it as a South African organisation. Parties to the convention are required to establish ship- reporting systems under which ships report their position to a coastal radio station. This enables the interval between loss of contact with a vessel and the initiation of search operations to be reduced. It also helps to permit the rapid determination of vessels that may be called upon to provide assistance including medical help when that is required.

Annexure 12 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation is a carbon copy of the SAR convention and in my opinion there is no need to dwell on its provisions. When I say ``my opinion’’, I mean the opinion of the Minister of Transport, Mr Dullah Omar, who is not able to be with us here today. [Laughter.]

I am happy to report that South Africa, as a party to these conventions, has already complied with most if not all of the provisions of these conventions. The SA Search and Rescue Organisation was on the international map during the Helderberg incident, which happened approximately 300 km off Mauritius on 28 November 1987. The SA Search and Rescue Organisation co- ordinators were called in to be in charge of this search effort in co- operation with the Mauritian authorities. The SA Search and Rescue Organisation also gained international prominence during the unfortunate incidents involving the luxury liner the Oceanos, which sank off Coffee Bay on 4 August 1991. All 591 passengers on the liner were saved from imminent death. This accorded the organisation and our country international recognition and respect.

There were many other instances where the SA Search and Rescue Organisation was involved with great success, but the incidents were less newsworthy because of the few survivors involved.

Turning to the Bill, there is currently no existing legislation that expressly provides for the establishment of the SA Search and Rescue Organisation or adequately provides for the search and rescue function within South Africa. Both the International Maritime Organisation and the International Civil Aviation Organisation identify the absence of a legal framework for the provision of the search and rescue services as a deficiency and the part of our country, South Africa, that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

The South African Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill seeks to provide the requisite legal framework for the provision of a search and rescue service in South Africa as well as to empower those responsible to carry out the tasks effectively. The Bill also provides for the incorporation of the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue of 1979 and Annex 12 to the convention on International Civil Aviation of 1994 into South African law.

The Bill further provides for the establishment and regulation of the SA Search and Rescue Organisation, the authority responsible for the application of the conventions referred to above and other conventions binding on the Republic pertaining to maritime and or nautical search and rescue operations, by the Ministry and the officials of Minister Dullah Omar.

Mr Dullah Omar is responsible for search and rescue in South Africa and is satisfied that adequate consultation has taken place and that the promulgation of this Bill is in the interests of our very, very beautiful country [Applause.]

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, it gives me pleasure to participate in this particular debate today. The Bill before us in this House is a section 75 Bill and it deals mainly with the two key objectives.

Firstly, it incorporates into South African law the two very important international conventions on search and rescue to which our country is already a signatory. Secondly, the Bill enhances the legal framework for the SA Search and Rescue Organisation, widely known by its acronym, Sasar. Sasar is basically a co-ordinating committee bringing together the skills and resources of a wide range of appropriate entities that may, from time to time, be involved in maritime or aeronautical search and rescue operations. These institutions, both parastatals and nongovernment, include the SA National Defence Force, the SA Civil Aviation Authority, the SA Maritime Safety Authority, the Air Traffic and Navigation Services Co Ltd, Telkom, local government and the National Sea Rescue Institute.

On the subject of the participation by the National Defence Force in rescue attempts and the much talked about arms deal, I want to share with the House conversations I had with two families in my constituency. Members of the first family are involved in the fishing industry in another province and were glad that our Government is spending more on defence equipment. This expenditure, in their opinion, would assist the National Defence Force in monitoring foreign vessels that illegally access our marine resources.

The second family argued that one of its family member was a victim of drug abuse and believed that most drug trade took place in our coastal waters. With such a vast ocean to monitor, a better-equipped Defence Force would be better placed to monitor the illegal drug trade in our oceans. I just want to remind members of the opposition parties that our electorates are not apolitical and unstrategic.

The international agreements have allocated to South Africa a very extensive search and rescue area. The search and rescue area is not limited to our coastal waters but extends to the South Atlantic Ocean and South Indian Ocean as well. I would like to give members of this House a tangible sense of what our responsibilities translate to in practice. South Africa has responsibilities extending halfway between South Africa and Australia on the eastern coast and approximately halfway between South Africa and South America on the western coast. Our responsibilities extend to Angola to the north and to Kenya on the east coast of our continent. This assistance to our neighbouring countries is probably our most tangible contribution to the objectives of the African Union.

In addition, our responsibilities extend to the entire South Pole region. More affluent countries, like the US and the UK, have permanent coastguard- type agencies. South Africa, with all its best intentions, cannot afford such luxuries. We, however, have Sasar, which has performed extremely well over many years. Members of this House would recall the SA Agulhas rescuing a Russian research vessel stranded in pack ice in the Antarctic. Our international credibility was enhanced as a result of this sea rescue attempt. The co-ordinating committee has government structures and NGOs such as the National Sea Rescue Institute. The National Sea Rescue Institute made a useful presentation to the parliamentary committee on transport.

The National Sea Rescue Institute has 650 volunteers who maintain rescue stations all along our coastline, 24 hours a day. It operates 27 stations using 58 vessels. Other than an annual grant from the Department of Transport, much of the operational funds and capital comes from public donations. At present they receive an annual grant of R400 000. Sasar’s executive has recommended that this amount be increased to R600 000.

In this light, I would like to remind members of this House that section 18 of the amended Income Tax Act grants nonprofit organisation that play a vital role in promoting development and democracy a tax-exempt status. This status allows donations to public benefit organisations to be deducted from the taxable income of potential donors.

Currently, the Income Tax Act grants tax-exempt statue to primary schools, organisations mainly involved in preventing HIV infection, children’s homes providing care and organisations mainly involved in caring for destitute and aged persons. My question to the Acting Minister of Transport is whether the National Sea Rescue Institute can be listed as a public benefit organisation and thereby become eligible for tax exempt status. I am sure that the Minister will consult with her collegues in Cabinet and discuss this particular matter. I think we need to do something in order to make it more attractive for organisations to assist us in this regard.

With these few remarks the ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Dr P J C NEL: Mr Chairman, right from the start I would like to say that the New NP supports the Bill. The SA Search and Rescue Organisation was established in 1958 to provide a search and rescue function on behalf of the South African government. This search and rescue function must be provided in accordance with the requirements of relevant international conventions that have been signed by South Africa. One of the main objectives of the Bill is therefore to incorporate two international conventions into the South African law, as has been mentioned by other speakers.

Sasar was established solely on the basis of provisions of international conventions. This was identified by the International Maritime Organisation as a shortcoming on the part of South Africa as the organisation had no legal framework for its existence. This Bill now also creates a legal framework for that purpose.

This is a very important Bill if one takes into consideration the magnitude of the search and rescue region for South Africa, as was mentioned by the deputy chair. I do not want to repeat that except to say that the area of responsibility for South Africa covers 27,7 million square kilometres.

At the regional International Maritime Organisation conference held in Italy in 2000, they recognised the urgency of the establishment of subregional rescue co-ordinating centres to enhance efficiency and cost- effectiveness. The South African Government has committed itself to the hosting of the envisaged subregional maritime rescue centre. We applaud the hon the Minister of Transport for that action. This action, as well as the South African heroes of Sasar who, over the past years, have placed their lives at high risk in order to save the lives of those in distress, has put South Africa on the world map. I would also like to pay tribute to those heroic South Africans today.

The Sasar organisation does not have resources to effect search and rescue operations by itself. It makes use of the assets of various government and private organisations to carry out its function effectively. I would also like to pay tribute to those organisations today. It is also the duty of all of us to find solutions to the challenges faced by Sasar. The New NP supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon special guests, hon colleagues, the SA Search and Rescue Organisation, Sasar, acts on behalf of the national Department of Transport as the authority responsible for the application of the conventions of the IMO, or International Maritime Organisation, and the ICAO, or International Civil Aviation Organisation. These conventions are binding on the Republic of South Africa to ensure a safe passage for crews and passengers to and from and around Southern Africa.

The South African coastal region is immense. South Africa does not have unlimited resources to rescue people in trouble far out at sea, but has the capacity to co-ordinate the resources available in the region to effect rescue operations. However, one must consider and appreciate the fact that the activity of organising, co-ordinating and managing a search and rescue operation for survivors is a complex activity. We note that the search and rescue region extends virtually to the halfway point between South Africa and South America and halfway to Australia, and as far south as the South Pole, and totals approximately 27,7 million square kilometres.

The mission, co-ordination and management demand immediate access to as much appropriate information as possible and very clear and well-understood channels of communication. It is therefore essential that the various plans are coherent and take account of the national and international expectations of service delivery. The Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre, MRCC, is primarily responsible for providing search and rescue services in the sea area of the Southern African area of responsibility.

Sasar must, within its means, utilise available resources to search for, assist and effect rescue operations for survivors of aircraft crashes and/or survivors of maritime accidents or incidents. Sasar must perform its functions in a manner that promotes efficient, economic and effective use of all resources. In performing its functions, Sasar must endeavour to co- operate with disaster management agencies established in terms of any law providing for the management of disasters. Sasar may perform its functions outside the Republic, but any such venture should not put any undue strain on our country’s coffers. Countries requesting assistance must also be willing to dig deep into their pockets.

Sasar is expected to compile a manual regarding search and rescue services and it must furnish the Minister with a report on its activities at least once a year and/or whenever required by the Minister. The Minister must table a copy of Sasar’s annual report in Parliament within 30 days of receiving it if Parliament is sitting. If Parliament is not sitting, it must be tabled within 14 days after the start of the next sitting.

This legislation is essential and is certainly designed to rescue people in distress, whether at sea or involved in aircraft mishaps. My party readily supports this piece of legislation. [Interjections.]

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, I want to give honour and respect to the Chair, the Minister, special delegates and members of this House. Please allow me to express my pleasant surprise that a book of Afrikaans poems has been dedicated to me. As far as can be ascertained, this is the first book of Afrikaans poems from a sister of the coloured community in South Africa. I value this gesture and this special gift. [Applause.] I also thank the member Mr Van Niekerk for including me in his motion of remembrance of Tshepang, the infant who was raped in the Northern Cape.

I endorse the views of my ANC colleague Mr Sulliman on the National Sea Rescue Institute. The National Sea Rescue Institute has two objectives: One is to save lives at sea and the other is to promote water and boating safety. It is the only voluntary sea rescue service in the whole of Africa and carries out approximately 97% of all sea rescue operations on the Southern African coast. This National Sea Rescue Institute is an independent organisation that relies almost entirely on voluntary subscriptions to finance its operations.

I am also aware that the national Minister of Transport is very supportive of the efforts of the NGO’s rescue attempts. The Minister is encouraging entities, such as the Airports Company South Africa, attached to the national Department of Transport to make substantial donations to the National Sea Rescue Institute. The idea of listing this institute as a public benefit organisation, thereby changing its tax status, would be an additional tool to increase its revenue capacity. Cabinet views on this subject would be interesting.

It appears that the safety of small fishing vessels requires additional investigation. We are aware that there have been several interactions between our Minister and Samsa. Conferences have been held and a draft action plan is currently being planned. We look forward to the report of the national department on fishing vessel safety.

In addition I would like to remind the members of this House that Telkom made a very profound submission to the parliamentary committees on transport. Telkom raised the following concerns: Telkom was the only telecommunications operator required by law to belong to the SA Search and Rescue Organisation, widely known as Sasar. The original Bill obliged Telkom to belong to Sasar, but none of the other telecommunications operators, including the second national operator.

The original Bill required Telkom to provide facilities and services to Sasar, but did not provide details of how this should be done. Telkom Maritime Services currently provide telecommunication services and facilities to the Department of Transport during maritime search and rescue operations. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 states that Maritime and Aeronautical Radio Services, widely known as Mars, must be established to construct and operate a private telecommunications network for this purpose. The Act does not stipulate whether or not Mars will remain a part of Telkom.

Telkom, however, argued that if Mars was not an appendage of Telkom then it would be inappropriate for Telkom to belong to Sasar. Telkom therefore argued that it was constitutionally impermissible to treat Telkom differently from other telecommunications operators, particularly in relation to the second national operator.

In essence Telkom reminded the committees on transport that the draft legislation did not make adequate provision for the proposed restructuring and the impending privatisation of Telkom or for the proposed second and competing fixed-line operator.

The relevant committees in Parliament were of the firm opinion that Telkom had a very valid argument. Subsequently we removed specific references to Telkom and made a more general reference to the obligations in terms of sea and rescue operations, being the obligations of any provider of a public switch telecommunications service.

The parliamentarians from all political parties, ook verkleurmannetjies [including chameleons], the national Department of Transport and Telkom were satisfied with these amendments. The ANC supports the South African Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, it does not look as if there are any chameleons in the ecosystem for this Bill. [Laughter.]

With regard to the issues raised by my colleagues Mr Sulliman and Rev Chabaku on tax exemptions and Telkom, I shall convey those concerns to the Minister of Transport and I am sure he will be able to deal with them accordingly.

Mr Raju raised the issue of the co-ordination and coherence of the operational plans of this organisation. I think, indeed, this Bill does give the legal framework for us to work in partnership with our neighbouring countries, particularly in SADC, but also within the ambit of Nepad. The fact that this organisation is, indeed, in part run on voluntary subscriptions is, I think, just an indication that South Africans truly value life and would like to promote safety in our country.

But let me thank members for participating in this debate. I am saying this on behalf of the Minister of Transport and I shall convey these sentiments to him. In particular let me thank the chairperson, deputy chairperson and members of the select committee for their sterling work in processing this piece of legislation. I understand they worked very hard, and hence the absence of chameleons.

To all those who participated in the debate and also those who just listened and did not debate, I would like to say that their inputs and ears are essential to this piece of legislation and will, indeed, contribute to enhancing the objectives of the Bill and what it seeks to achieve in our country. I did undertake to convey to Minister Omar all the issues that have been raised during the debate. [Applause.]

Debate concluded. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Whilst that concludes the debate I wish to appeal to hon members to bear with us. We still have the same problem with the electronic voting system, which is still not working, so we will use our archaic way of voting, that is with the ayes and the nays. Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 17:09. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                     WEDNESDAY, 16 OCTOBER 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 9 September 2002 in terms
     of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section
     75 Bill:


     (i)     Explosives Bill [B 43 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec
          75).

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (1)    Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


     Bill passed by National Assembly on 16 October 2002 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (i)     Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences
          Amendment Bill [B 42B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76)
          (referred to Select Committee on Public Services).

1. The Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Special Investigating Unit
     for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements for 2001-2002.


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Foreign
     Affairs - Vote 3 for 2001-2002, including the Report of the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 206-
     2002].


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance:


     Resolutions of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for 2002
     and replies thereto obtained by the National Treasury - Second
     Report, 2002.


 (4)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Education and Recreation:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Film and
          Video Foundation for 2001-2002, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP
          193-2002].


     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Arts
          Council for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 202-
          2002].


     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Sports Commission for 2001-2002, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Local
     Government and Administration:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Provincial
     and Local Government - Vote 5 for 2001-2002, including the Report
     of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002
     [RP 175-2002].

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Education - Vote
 14 for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
 Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 123-2002].

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)    Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
     Africa and the Government of the United Kingdom of Britain and
     Northern Ireland for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the
     Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and
     Capital Gains, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
     Constitution, 1996.


 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention.


 (c)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of New Zealand for the Avoidance of Double
     Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to
     Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
     Constitution, 1996.


 (d)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.


 (e)    Agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom
     of the Netherlands regarding Mutual Administrative Assistance
     between their customs administrations for the proper application
     of customs law for the Prevention, Investigation and Combating of
     customs offences, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
     Constitution, 1996.


 (f)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.


 (g)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Czech Republic regarding Mutual
     Assistance in Customs matters, tabled in terms of section 231(3)
     of the Constitution, 1996.


 (h)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.


 (i)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Republic of Mozambique regarding Mutual
     Assistance between their Customs Administrations, tabled in terms
     of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (j)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.


 (k)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Republic of Zambia regarding Mutual
     Assistance between their Customs Administrations, tabled in terms
     of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (l)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

 Report and Financial Statement of the South African Tourism for 2001-
 2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
 Statements for 2001-2002.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the National Conventional Arms Control Bill [B 50D - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 15 October 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the National Conventional Arms Control Bill [B 50D - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Defence Bill [B 60B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 15 October 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Defence Bill [B 60B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

                   THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2002
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (1)    Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 17 October
     2002: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:
     (i)     National Conventional Arms Control Bill [B 50D - 2000]
             (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (ii)    Defence Bill [B 60B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (iii)   Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill [B 27B - 2002] (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


     (iv)    South African Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue
             Bill [B 23D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).


 (2)    Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


     Bills passed by National Assembly on 17 October 2002 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (i)     Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair
             Discrimination Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2002] (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


     (ii)    Promotion of Administrative Justice Amendment Bill [B 46B
             - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (iii)   Insolvency Second Amendment Bill [B 53B - 2002] (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


     (iv)    Promotion of Access to Information Amendment Bill [B 60 -
             2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Security
     and Constitutional Affairs.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Bloem Water for 2000-2001.