THURSDAY, 10 APRIL 2003
                                ____

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:06.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr J DURAND: Mevrou die Speaker, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Huis -

 Die probleem van oorbevolking in Suid-Afrikaanse tronke as gevolg van
 probleme binne die strafregstelsel bespreek. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I move without notice - That the House -

 Discusses the problem of overpopulation in South African prisons, as a
 result of problems within the criminal justice system.]

   SPONSORSHIP OF BID TO HOST WORLD CUP SOCCER TOURNAMENT IN 2010

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr C H F GREYLING: Mevrou die Speaker, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem -

   (a)  dat Anglo American Woensdag die grootste borg geword het van
       Suid-Afrika se bod om in 2010 die Wêreldbeker-sokkertoernooi aan
       te bied; en


   (b)  dat Anglo American die bodpoging met R15 miljoen borg; en


 2) Anglo American bedank vir hul steun en betrokkenheid, en glo dat
    ander instansies hul voorbeeld sal volg. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr C H F Greyling: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  that on Wednesday Anglo American became the largest sponsor of
       South Africa's bid to host the World Cup Soccer Tournament in
       2010; and


   (b)  that Anglo American is sponsoring the bid by R15 million; and

(2) thanks Anglo American for their support and involvement, and believes that other bodies will follow their example.]

Agreed to.

                COMMEMORATION OF DEATH OF CHRIS HANI

                        (Member's Statement)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (ANC): Madam Speaker, 10 years ago Comrade Chris Hani was assassinated. Hundreds of thousands of South Africans poured onto the streets to express their outrage. The assassins had hoped to trigger a race war and prevent any advance to a nonracial democracy. The outcome was the exact opposite. As our country teetered on the brink of crisis, the stalled negotiations recommenced. Within two weeks a firm date for elections, April 27 one year hence, was set.

Comrade Chris was born into deep rural poverty in the Cofimvaba district. Against all odds, he matriculated at the age of 16 and graduated from Fort Hare at the age of 19. Despite his evident talents, which could have been a passport to a private escape, Hani refused to separate his destiny from that of the wretched of the earth. He was among the first young men and women to join the people’s army, uMkhonto weSizwe.

Chris Hani was a patriot. His patriotism was not envy for the elitist privileges of the oppressors. It was not a narrow nationalism. It was an inclusive and generous patriotism. It was centred on the aspirations and struggles of the landless peasants and exploited workers. Comrade Chris was a communist. His communism was deeply linked to his patriotism. He understood the instability and violence inherent to a society based on greed. Hani’s socialism was not abstract. For him socialism meant homes for the homeless, food for the hungry and jobs for the unemployed.

Hani would have been proud of the achievements of the ANC and its alliance since 1994; a major new water project in Cofimvaba, new houses, electricity, education and health care. He would have been in the front trenches of the movement’s programme of listening to the concerns and aspirations of the people. The ANC commits itself to taking forward the struggle for which Comrade Chris lived and died. United in action, let us push back the frontiers of poverty. Thank you. [Applause.]

      ROLE OF SPECIAL SERVICE BATTALION IN POVERTY ALLEVIATION

                        (Member's Statement)

Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK (DA): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. On the 1st of May 1933, during the Depression era, the government established a special service battalion known as the SSB in Pretoria. Its purpose was to get unemployed young men off the streets to teach them basic military skills and to prepare them for employment in civil society. They received one shilling a day and were generally referred to as the ``bob-a-day- boys’’. The SSB is still in existence and will be celebrating its 70th anniversary in Bloemfontein on the 1st of May of this year.

Given our high unemployment levels today, perhaps we should revisit this concept. If we can employ jobless young people in a service which teaches them practical skills while using them to assist at all levels of government, in public works programmes, etc, we could reduce poverty and help the economy. It is time to invest in our young people. It is time for us to get to work. Thank you.

  WORKING CONDITIONS AND REMUNERATION IN SOCIAL SERVICE PROFESSION

                        (Member's Statement)

Mrs I MARS (IFP): Thank you, Madam Speaker. The social service profession plays a vital role in addressing many of the social needs of our country. The current poor remuneration for qualified social workers, the disparities between salaries offered in the public sector and by NGOs, the challenges and the stressful conditions under which they render their services have led to low morale among these very important professionals, many of whom have left South Africa.

It is this that also discourages competent young people from entering the profession. The current situation impacts negatively on our communities and limits the utilisation of the social service practitioners in dealing efficiently with their daunting workload. Not only do we need to address the low remuneration for qualified social workers, we also have to deal with adequate subsidisation for those working for NGOs. I thank you.

     CONFERENCE OF AFRICAN ELECTION COMMISSIONERS HOSTED BY IEC

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms O R KASIENYANE (ANC): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Delegates from all over Africa have gathered in Pretoria for a conference that is hosted by the Independent Electoral Commission of South Africa. The theme of the conference is ``Strengthening African Initiatives’’. This conference aims to provide a platform for election commissioners from all over Africa to explore ways of deepening the capacity of electoral bodies to contribute towards delivering free and fair elections.

This historic conference is important in that it will directly contribute to developing practical steps or programmes to deepen democracy and promote good governance on the continent. We believe that through this initiative the electoral commissioners will be contributing to the objectives of the African Union, some of which are to promote democratic principles and institutions, popular participation and good governance, and to promote and protect human and peoples’ rights in accordance with the African Charter of Human and Peoples’ Rights and other relevant human rights instruments.

The ANC congratulates all delegates who came to our country to attend this historic conference, and firmly believes that their deliberations will assist in making this century an African century. I thank you. [Applause.]

                       DA USES MDC TO BASH ANC

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr B L GELDENHUYS (New NP): Madam Speaker, I rise to draw the attention of the House to a statement made by the shadow Minister of foreign affairs of the MDC, the biggest opposition party in Zimbabwe, Mr Msila Ndlovu. According to the Sowetan of today, he said: ``The DA is using the MDC to bash the ANC, and this is not helping our cause because it clouds the issues we are raising as MDC.’’ [Interjections.] The shadow Minister of foreign affairs of the MDC is in fact accusing the DA of using the plight of the people in Zimbabwe to promote their own political agenda … [Interjections.] … and this is borne out by the distribution of an appalling pamphlet on Zimbabwe by the DA during the Swellendam by-election. [Interjections.] Yes, one should not be silent about what is happening in Zimbabwe, and yes, one should criticise the atrocities committed by Zanu-PF in the strongest possible terms and the New NP will continue doing exactly that. One should, however, not use the events in Zimbabwe to promote one’s political agenda as the DA is doing currently. [Interjections.] [Applause.] And one should not criticise what is happening in Zimbabwe in such a manner that it will damage the cause of the MDC, and again the DA is the guilty party. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, hon members.

        SORRY STATE OF MABOPANE MOTOR VEHICLE TESTING STATION

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr J T MASEKA (UDM): Madam Speaker, Mabopane motor vehicle testing ground …

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

Mr J T MASEKA (UDM): … also being the registering offices of motor vehicles, is serving many areas in the eastern region of the North West. Residents are experiencing serious problems at these offices. These problems are often caused by electricity failures which take days to restore. Sometimes people are told that computers are down, which also takes days to fix and people have to go back without being serviced after waiting the whole day in the hope that electricity and/or computers would be restored that day.

People take leave from work in order to visit these offices for various reasons, such as testing for learners’ licences, drivers’ licences, vehicle registration, converting drivers’ licences to card form, only to find out that they cannot be assisted, owing to the unavailability of electricity or owing to computers being down. In the end, members of the public are compelled to pay heavy fines for not registering or for not paying in time. Yet the delay in registering or paying was caused by the Department of Transport.

The UDM calls upon the acting Minister of Transport to visit these offices to see for himself, rather than receive reports from his officials about the situation at these offices. Drivers were given until the end of April to convert their drivers’ licences from IDs to card form and many people are not being helped at these offices because of the problems mentioned above. This matter should be attended to as a matter of urgency. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Order!

               PROVISION OF CLEAN WATER BY GOVERNMENT

                        (Member's Statement)

Mnu N B FIHLA (ANC): Somlomo, ilali yase-Vaal Bank ngase-Lady Frere, eMpuma Koloni, ifumana amanzi acocekileyo. I-Vaal Bank Water Supply Scheme yiyo ethi izise la manzi acocekileyo. URhulumente ufake imali engangezigidi ezili-18 kule projekthi, kwaye isigaba sesibini sayo siza kugqitywa kwiinyanga ezimbini. Le nto iza kwenza ukuba abantu abali-1 022 bakwazi ukufumana amanzi acocekileyo.

URhulumente okhokelwa nguKhongolozi uthabatha amanyathelo aqinisekisa ukuba abantu bayawafumana amanzi acocekileyo. Le yinxalenye yamanyathelo okwakhela bonke abantu beli ubomi obungcono. Ukufumaneka kwamanzi kuthetha ukuba abantu abayi kuphinda basele amanzi asetyenziswa nazizilwanyana, nto leyo eyenza ukuba bafumane izifo ezifana notyatyazo. Ukufumaneka kwala manzi kuza kwenza ukuba impilo yabantu iphucuke. Ukufumaneka kwamanzi acocekileyo kubonakalisa ukuzimisela kukaRhulumente ukuqinisekisa ukuba abemi ababengahoywanga ngurhulumente wocalucalulo baya kungcamla kule nkululeko yabantu bonke. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa member’s statement follows.) [Mr N B FIHLA: Madam Speaker, the Vaal Bank village near Lady Frere in the Eastern Cape gets clean water. The Vaal Bank Water Supply Scheme supplies this clean water. The Government allocated an amount of R18 million for this project and the second phase will be completed in two months. This will see to it that 1 022 people receive clean water.

The ANC-led Government is taking steps that ensure that people do get clean water. These are some of the initiatives that seek to better the lives of people. Getting water means that people will not drink with animals again, something that gives them diseases and diarrhoea. This will also result in a better life for people. Availability of clean water shows the commitment of the Government to ensure that citizens, who were not cared for by the previous racist government, do indeed benefit from this free country. Thank you. [Applause.]]

             SERVICE DELIVERY LEAVES MUCH TO BE DESIRED

                        (Member's Statement) Mrs R M SOUTHGATE (ACDP): Madam Speaker, the various Budget Votes currently before Parliament reflect the additional allocation and spending patterns of national, provincial and local government departments.

On a recent talk show on the Budget, callers from Mpumalanga complained that the state of education has not changed. Schools were built to last for 15 years only, but have now been standing for 20 years. School infrastructure has not improved and they are in dire need of repair and amenities. The shortage of teachers is still a big problem and the teacher- pupil ratios are way too high for effective teaching.

Other issues raised were similar to those affecting people in many other provinces in South Africa on a day-to-day basis: hospitals in rural areas are still in a state of disrepair; crime is still rampant despite the high- profile efforts of the police in the media, and gangsterism is out of control on the Cape Flats; the licensing scams continue despite the new card system, and all sorts of corruption can still be found in all nine provinces of South Africa. Unless capacity at the local government level is improved dramatically, people will continue to suffer, though the money is there to assist them.

Drastic steps need to be taken in order to address the serious lack of service delivery to our communities. Government must also employ personnel in official positions on merit, regardless of their political affiliation. Only if appointments are apolitical will the situation improve at the local government level. I thank you.

                             HATE SPEECH

                        (Member's Statement)

Mnr P J GROENEWALD (VF): Mevrou die Speaker, dit is reg dat Mnr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, Premier van die Wes-Kaap, die diskriminasie teen die bruin skoonheidsterapeut, Mej Langenhoven, by die Menseregtekommissie aangemeld het. Om aan kiesers te wys hoe objektief hy teenoor alle groepe optree, maak hy vanoggend die bewering dat dit sy en die Nuwe NP se optrede was wat daartoe gelei het dat president Mbeki ook die slagspreuk, ``Kill the Boer! Kill the farmer!’’ gerepudieer het. Wat is die ware feite?

Op 18 Junie 2002 het die VF ‘n amptelike klag van haatspraak by die Mensregtekommissie oor dié slagspreuk gelê. Die MRK het beslis dat dit nie haatspraak is nie, waarteen die VF amptelik appèl aangeteken het. Die appèl van die VF word vroeg volgende maand deur die onafhanklike tribunaal aangehoor. Verder het die leier van die VF, Dr Pieter Mulder, ook op 18 Junie 2002 in die President se begrotingspos in die Parlement na hierdie slagspreuk verwys en die President gevra om dit te repudieer.

In sy repliek op 19 Junie sê die President:

We must support the hon Pieter Mulder. No one has the right to call for the killing of farmers or Boers, nor the right to threaten violence to advance their particular goals. Die VF vind dit ironies dat Mnr van Schalkwyk geen klagte oor die slagspreuk, ``Kill the farmer! Kill the Boer!’’ gelê het nie, maar dit nou as ‘n oorwinning vir hom en sy party wil opeis. Dit ruik na tipiese Nuwe NP politieke opportunisme, wat die rede is vir die huidige politieke krisis in daardie party. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD (FF): Madam Speaker, it is correct that Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, Premier of the Western Cape, reported the discrimination against the coloured beauty therapist, Miss Langenhoven, to the Human Rights Commission. In order to show the voters how objectively he treats all groups, he claimed this morning that it was his and the New NP’s intervention which also led to President Mbeki’s repudiation of the slogan ``Kill the Boer! Kill the Farmer!’’ What are the true facts?

On 18 June 2002 the FF lodged an official complaint of hate speech with the Human Rights Commission regarding that slogan. The HRC determined that it was not hate speech, against which the FF lodged an official appeal. The FF’s appeal will be heard early next month by the independent tribunal. Furthermore, during the President’s Vote in Parliament on 18 June 2002, the leader of the FF, Dr Pieter Mulder, also referred to this slogan, asking the President to repudiate it.

In his reply on 19 June the President said:

We must support the hon Pieter Mulder. No one has the right to call for the killing of farmers or Boers, nor the right to threaten violence to advance their particular goals.

The FF finds it ironic that Mr Van Schalkwyk never lodged a complaint about the slogan ``Kill the Farmer! Kill the Boer!’’, but that he now wants to claim this as a victory for himself and his party. That smells of typical New NP political opportunism, which is the reason for the current political crisis in that party. [Interjections.]]

               THE EFFECTS OF WAR ON THE IRAQI PEOPLE
                        (Member's Statement)

Mr D J SITHOLE (ANC): Madam Speaker, three journalists were killed in the shelling of Palestine Hotel in Baghdad. Their deaths add to the number of those of unarmed civilians, women and children who have been injured and lost their limbs and their lives. This wanton destruction of life, property and social and cultural life of the Iraqi people is a direct result of aggressive foreign policy of the United States and Britain. This policy has worsened the pain of the Iraqi people who suffer as a result of United Nations-imposed sanctions which have already led to the shortage of basic food, necessities and medical supplies.

This war has led to a further shortage of food, water and medicine. To date the US and UK forces that have illegally occupied and waged a war against Iraqi people have not discovered any weapons of mass destruction. This war is not sanctioned by the UN Security Council. This act of aggression by the United States and Britain is neither about weapons of mass destruction nor about the liberation of the Iraqi people from tyranny. It is about the US’s desire to control oil reserves of Iraq. Through the war both these countries have demonstrated that they are prepared to take the lives of innocent people, babies and civilians to pursue their imperialist interests.

The aggressive action of the US and UK governments has done great damage to the UN system of collective security built over the past 57 years. It is likely to cause instability and make the world less safe for us all.

The ANC calls on all peace-loving people to reject …

The SPEAKER: Hon member, our statements are running over time. You are more than 20 seconds over time now. Please, will you take your seat.

Mr D J SITHOLE (ANC): Speaker, will my statement be printed in full?

The SPEAKER: Yes, we print statements, if we do print them at all.

Mr D J SITHOLE (ANC): Thank you very much. [Applause.]

              CONCLUSION OF THE CONGOLESE PEACE PROCESS

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms R TALJAARD (DA): Madam Speaker, this House applauds the successful conclusion of the inter-Congolese dialogue process at Sun City.

The new constitution which opens the way for a unity government for the DRC and the swearing-in of President Joseph Kabila are dramatic steps towards the path of peace, development and democracy, but challenges remain. This constitution includes provisions enabling the president to rule by decree. According to the United Nations, new interethnic clashes have tragically claimed more than 300 lives in the Eastern Ituri region and this loss of life must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

This region is rich in gold, oil, timber and uranium and continues to be a target for those who have peddled the Congo’s resources on international markets with no regard for peace or development of the postwar economy of the DRC.

We wish the members of the Ituri Pacification Commission well in their efforts to halt the bloodshed and call on all roleplayers, the government of the DRC and the United Nations to crush the self-enriching elite networks identified by the UN panel that continue to pillage the DRC’s natural resources for private gain. [Applause.]

                 POLICE ABUSE OF EMERGENCY NO 10111

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr E T FERREIRA (IFP): It is odd that police officials misuse the 10111 number set aside for emergency purposes in order to save people’s lives. It is reported that this number is used by police officials, among other things, to report that they will be late for work, late for dinner, request to be picked up for work, request friends to collect things at home and for many other reasons, such as when they have no air time on their cellphones.

In Pinelands, Cape Town, alone in March this year the radio control office answered 236 000 calls and police responded to 53 000 of them. Police officials have made 1 225 personal calls on 10111 in this month and if you break this down it is 41 personal calls per day made from that number.

It has been the police officers’ patient plea that the public should not use the 10111 number for trivial calls, but it appears now they wanted to reduce the number of callers in order to use it for themselves. This House should be concerned about this state of affairs. We need to ensure the safety of our communities and one of the ways is to utilise 10111 for a good cause. The police should be helping to fight the scourge of crime and not be misusing this number. The time spent on dealing with nonemergency calls could efficiently and profitably be used to save lives of people in danger.

        TRANSFORMATION IN THE SOUTH AFRICAN EDUCATION SYSTEM

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr N M NENE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance tabled the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review on 8 April 2003. This report noted that the ANC Government has made great strides in the transformation of the education system. The success of the education transformation agenda is reflected in the following.

Firstly, the improved access of education as reflected in the sharp growth in enrolment figures; secondly, the accelerated provision of school infrastructure which was reinforced through the school-building programme; thirdly, improved learner-educator ratios from 40:1 to 32:1 in 2002; fourthly, more equitable distribution of resources within the sector; fifthly, the strengthening of parent and community involvement through school governing bodies; and lastly, the successful transition from 17 departments to a unified system of school education under the auspices of nine provinces.

This review also states that the provincial education expenditure has been growing at 10,1% in the three years up to 2002-03. It will further rise to R58,9 billion in 2002-03, to R63,4 billion in 2004-05 and reach R67,5 billion in 2005-06.

These great achievements are an indication that the ANC-led Government is committed to the agenda of eradication of the legacy of apartheid in education and the establishment of a nonracial, nonsexist and dynamic education system in a democratic society. These achievements further affirm the Government’s commitment to building a brighter future for our country’s youth. [Applause.]

        THE LOOMING THREAT OF SARS INFECTION IN SOUTH AFRICA
                        (Member's Statement)

Dr S J GOUS (New NP): Madam Speaker, the first unconfirmed case of SARS has been identified in South Africa. We are now officially directly affected by this worldwide health threat. This is a serious and dangerous disease which can have far-reaching implications for South Africa, more so if one considers what effect Aids might have on the progression of this disease.

The facts are that apparently this outbreak already began last November in the People’s Republic of China, but they swept some facts of the disease under the carpet. This suppression of information has already cost hundreds of lives. The Chinese government is guilty of negligence for failing to inform the WHO and not alerting the rest of the world. The tragedy is that health authorities in Taiwan reported this situation to the WHO, but as Taiwan is not a member of the WHO, this did not receive the necessary attention.

The fact that our Government does not support Taiwan’s application for observer status of the WHO, because they are allowing themselves to be dictated to by the People’s Republic of China, is a travesty of justice and is placing South African lives at risk. This nightmare is now also a reality. It is time our Government did the right thing by supporting the Taiwanese application to become observers at the WHO, a position they thoroughly deserve in view of their capacity and willingness to co-operate. Health matters should be above petty politics, as dictated by the WHO’s own constitution. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, before asking Ministers to respond, I want to draw your attention to the fact that gradually over the last few days statements which should be limited to 1,5 minutes are being extended and I would ask you to please limit the statements to 1,5 minutes so that one does not interrupt you. I also want to indicate that we do not print statements in the Order Paper. They are printed in Hansard but only up to the point they are delivered. So, your full words of wisdom will only be printed if they come within the 90 seconds of allotted time.

I will now ask Ministers to respond to any statements directed at them.

                    EXPENDITURE IN THE PROVINCES

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, it is not becoming a habit, but I sometimes invoke the fact that I am a former schoolteacher. The hon Rhoda Southgate speaks like a schoolgirl who has been asked to write an essay on ``What’s wrong in Mpumalanga?’’ When she writes that - a full catalogue of woes and sins, in particular, to be attributed to this Government - I have to respond as a former schoolteacher by saying that you have to, in fact, look at the picture as given to us by hon Nhlanhla Nene, the Chairman of the Budget Committee.

I think that I will invite the hon Southgate to look at that wonderful document that has been produced by the Minister of Finance which looks at the fiscal review and expenditure in the provinces. You will see there not only what the hon Nene has said about the increase in expenditure, but you will see that, in fact, we are doing infrastructure development.

I don’t know where the hon Southgate was in 1994. I can hazard a guess but I will not, in the delicacy demanded by being in this House. I will not hazard a guess then. But, if you realise the enormity of what happened in Mpumalanga in particular, beyond Marble Hall, you will see that there was total dereliction. I saw that when I was Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry during the floods that took place three years ago. We were able to fix up all the damage of the floods within two months, as the national department together with the provinces.

Maybe we had an enormous amount of money which did not come from the exchequer only but from developmental assistance in order to give priority to Mpumalanga. For the first time I can say that, in fact, they have spent the budget to a great extent, particularly the conditional grants - and I reminded the House two months ago that I will take political responsibility if the conditional grants were not spent. The reports show that conditional grants are now being spent to a great extent more in Mpumalanga than in any other province.

I think that you ought to come with me then on a Cook’s tour of Mpumalanga.

The SPEAKER: Order! I’m sorry, but your two minutes have expired. I think if we are asking members to stick to their time, we’ll ask Ministers as well.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises:

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Madam Speaker, hon members, the chairs and chief executives of state enterprises, ladies and gentlemen, it is said of Shaka kaSenzangakhona:

USala kumenyezelwa usiShaka kasishayeki iLemb’ eleqa amanye amalembe ngokukhalipha umoy’ omzansi womngenelo ohlez’ ubangenela nangomnyango oth’ esadl’ ezinye adl’ ezinye wath’ edl’ ezinye wadl’ ezinye

[Applause.]

Those are praises to a mighty warrior and king that echo down through the ages and which today stir our thoughts towards a warrior of humble birth, Chris Thembisile Hani. [Applause.] Comrade Chris’s lifelong commitment to the ANC and the SACP’s epic struggle to eradicate poverty and place Africa’s poor at the centre of our attention informs, even today, the policy and programmes of the ANC. Let us recall his cruel assassination but let us also continue to give flesh and blood to our political democracy by building a living monument to his memory, enshrined in economic and social justice for our people.

Allow me to welcome economics students from the Cape tertiary institutions. I hope that they will be so motivated by today’s debate so as to join our own state enterprises in the not too distant future. [Applause.] A very special welcome, though, to a comrade and compatriot of African liberation, Comrade Slava Tetekin. [Applause.] His activism for our liberation stretches back to the USSR’s Afro-Asian Solidarity Committee. Today, he is the parliamentary secretary to the leader of the Russian Communist Party in Moscow - Comrade Gennady Zyuganov. [Applause.]

Budget Votes provide single snapshots on the roll of film that is Government’s total programme and activity. The contribution, performance and restructuring of public enterprises is but one link to the chain of Government’s developmental policy. Because state-owned enterprises are major instruments of the developmental state, in order to combat poverty, we have defined and implemented the restructuring of state assets in a nonideological fashion, seeking the best results by analysing the balance of evidence on a case-by-case basis, selecting an appropriate method to achieve our goals.

My report to Parliament today takes a thematic approach that reflects on the impact of restructuring in its broadest sense. The evidence reveals a direct link between restructuring and the stronger contribution that SOEs are making to the development of our country and our continent. State-owned enterprises are important strategic financial actors in South Africa. Their restructuring has released financial resources for social and economic programmes throughout the country.

The major state enterprises play a significant financial role in our economy. For example, although South Africa’s external debt was just over R32 billion at the end of June 2002, the share of SOE borrowings dropped to 14,9% compared to 46% in 1990. Public corporations contribute about 5,5% of the GDP. The total surplus of nonfinancial public corporations represented 2,4% of GDP in 2002. They also contributed 10,8% of gross domestic fixed capital formation. Their credit ratings remain stable.

The financial wellbeing of SOEs is an obvious priority and, assisted by compliance with the Public Finance Management Act, they must continue. Last year, our Government carried out 11 transactions to bring their number to 27 since 1997. These included outright disposals, equity sales, participation of BEE groups, dividend payments, proceeds from the rationalisation of interest across SOEs and the Telkom IPO. To date - and these are the most recent figures - we have total proceeds of R35,5 billion, with the National Revenue Fund absorbing just under R22,5 billion.

Income for 2002 was R8,126 billion and was affected by the cancellation of the Komatiland forestry transaction and slippage in the disposal of Rosherville vehicles, property and construction, finalisation of Amatola and Alexkor through legal action, complex negotiations around BAE Systems and Denel, and liability problems at the remaining Aventura resort. We expect finalisation of these during the next few months.

Vigorous restructuring activities during 2003 include the 100% disposal of the loan books of Eskom Finance Company and Transnet Housing that, taken together, are worth about R6 billion. The partial sale of Freightdynamics and Autopax to BEE interests, the selection of an SEP for Viamax, the concession of the Blue Train and the disposal of Transmed’s pharmacies will proceed this year, as will the disposal of Government’s remaining interest in MTN. Transnet’s end state will be finalised and we shall continue to pursue options for South African Airways.

Two major transactions will dominate 2003. First is the preparation to dispose 30% of Eskom power generation, including a 10% BEE disposal, subject, as always, to the general market conditions that we would be foolish to ignore. A more detailed outline of the plans for Eskom is contained in the parliamentary reply that I provided yesterday and distributed to members earlier today. The second is the concessioning of Durban Container Terminal. Government is moving decisively on this front and requests for qualifications will be issued in June this year once the preparatory work is complete. There is a high level of interest from the business community in the opportunities that this programme presents, including improved performance in the transport sector to support South African trade.

The reworked National Ports Bill provides for the incorporation of the National Ports Authority as a Transnet subsidiary before becoming a stand- alone SOE in the long term, and for an interim regulator to manage the relationship between the authority and the Transnet group. This reworked Bill will be returned to Parliament very soon.

A comprehensive concession strategy which covers all aspects of the cargo- handling terminals operated by the ports operation division of Transnet is nearly complete. Together with agreed concession architecture principles, the strategy document will provide the policy and regulatory certainty necessary for a smooth restructuring process, which are prerequisites for the start of the intended restructuring transactions. These will, of course, be made public once they are complete.

We are very mindful of the strategic value of our ports. Their efficient operation is central to the development of our continent. Port rehabilitation, modernisation and infrastructure expansion, including landlocked container terminals and so on, are becoming the norm across Africa in order to deal with the growing containerisation and increasing container traffic in Africa.

Government considers the strategic employment of SOE procurement budgets as an instrument of black economic empowerment that complements their ongoing transformation. During 2002, Eskom, Transnet and Denel had a combined discretionary procurement budget of just under R34 billion, of which just over R9 billion was BEE centred. Transnet committed 54,6% of its procurement spend to BEE. It was followed by Eskom at 21,2% and Denel at 15%. Eskom and Transnet spread their BEE procurement across manufacturing, production, resources and professional services. Eskom’s BEE spend also includes a significant 33,7% of coal purchases. Denel plans to increase the supply of local content products and services from black suppliers to 40% of manufacturing, including marine freight services, engineering services, electrical components and raw materials. We will continue to monitor BEE spending closely to ensure that it is consistent with our goals.

Government believes that the Telkom IPO is the flagship of black economic empowerment. A short time ago the shares stood at R31,11 on the JSE, representing a 39% rise in value since the listing. Khulisa shares of R500 and R5 000 are now worth R684 and R6 938 respectively. In New York the ADR is trading at 13% above the listing price. Telkom’s ordinary shares have outperformed both the FTSE-JSE Top 40 and the European benchmark index. In New York they have performed more strongly than their sector, and made gains in line with the US market. Over 100 000 South Africans took up the retail offer, representing nearly 9% of the total deal. Fifty-eight per cent came through the Khulisa offer and represents nearly 50% of the total retail money. Women represent 55% of the Khulisa offer, and 54% of all retail shareholders are women. Sixty-two per cent of shareholders come from outside Gauteng; almost 18% from KwaZulu- Natal; 11% from the Western Cape; 7,5% from Limpopo; and 6% each from the Eastern Cape, Mpumalanga, the Free State and the North West. The Northern Cape was just under 2%. Over 50% of applicants fall within the age group of 31 to 50 years. A total of 439 stokvels, representing more than 23 000 members, also participated.

Progress continues with employment equity. It is extremely encouraging to note the contribution of SOEs towards education, training and skills development, which is aimed at scholars and students. Safcol, Eskom, Transnet and Denel are very active in this exemplary work. Special mention must be made of the extra efforts to bring women into engineering and related services. Improved financial performance and management, including the reorganisation of pension funds, permitted an expanding commitment to capital expenditure and investment in infrastructure during 2002. Transnet, Eskom and Denel spent R9 billion, R5,6 billion and R234 million respectively in 2002, and have budgeted R12,6 billion, R9,5 billion and R246 million respectively for this current year. Improved longer-term infrastructure investment planning now stretches, in some instances, over the next 20 years.

Transnet plans to spend over R37,6 billion in capital expenditure over the next three years. Metrorail is set to spend some R15 billion over the next 10 years, including expenditure to improve safety. Spoornet’s long-term projects include a R42 billion investment in rolling stock, refurbishment and fixed infrastructure upgrades between 2002 and 2018. Platinum and ferrochrome plant expansion necessitates a sizable investment in Eskom’s distribution system upgrades. Denel’s investment relates mainly to the replacement and purchase of new equipment required for new contracts.

Too often interesting details of specific projects hide behind financial data, so let me touch on some of the more interesting projects that these three SOEs will engage in during 2003 and beyond.

Spoornet’s locomotive and wagon fleet is very old, driving up operating costs, reducing reliability and leading to poor performance. The fixed infrastructure is also dilapidated and raises the urgent concern about safety and efficiency. Spoornet seeks to employ more efficient diesel locos in rural areas to revitalise its branch-line network and boost economic development in rural areas. The carrying capacity of rail will improve, the shift from road to rail of heavy freight will accelerate, and the real pricing of rail services will drop.

Furthermore, 90% of the wagon renewal budget, or R9 billion, and more than 50%, or about R10 billion, of the locomotive budget will be spent in South Africa. Overseas suppliers will transfer skills over the period and will embed their technology in Spoornet and develop local support networks.

I’m very pleased to see that Government’s decision to prevent the closure of low-density lines in 1999 has begun to bear fruit. A number of lines have been identified for rehabilitation and continued use in consultation with provinces, especially in the Eastern Cape, the Northern Cape, the North West and Gauteng, and will operate as infrastructure corridors in order to support industrial, mining and agricultural development, or to boost tourism activities.

The GFB lines of KwaZulu-Natal, the Northern Cape and the Western Cape are earmarked for substantial upgrading. The upgrading of the Kroonstad- Ladybrand line, linked with work on the Maseru container terminal, will provide the Vaal Triangle industrial complex, Free State agriculture and Lesotho with greater access to the Durban harbour.

Both the Orex and Coallink lines will be upgraded to facilitate export growth of R1,6 billion and R3 billion per annum respectively over these lines. New line construction at Brits will see a R30 million line carry ferrochrome exports of some R2,7 billion per annum through Richards Bay. The R500 million Coega extension line will link Coega with the Port Elizabeth rail network.

Ports are also investing. The R25 million for dredging and deepening East London’s harbour will enable larger car carriers to call on East London on an average of two per month in order to meet the growing demand for the service. The Richards Bay coal terminal will undergo a R2,4 billion expansion, and work is progressing well on the R3,2 billion port of Ngqura. The Coega project, as you know, took a giant leap forward yesterday with an agreement between the Ports Authority and the French investment and industrial giant, Pechiney.

In some instances, though, project proposals not mentioned may not yet be aligned with some of the restructuring initiatives. New challenges have emerged as well, such as the radical requirements for port and container security planning and infrastructure. I have therefore instructed the director-general to co-ordinate a detailed report from SOEs on how their infrastructure investment plans are aligned with restructuring initiatives and Government’s development priorities, and how they intend dealing with these new challenges.

Over the past 10 years Eskom has brought electricity to nearly three million homes in South Africa. [Applause.] Backlogs continue, particularly in rural areas, and special challenges face us with the growth of informal settlements in urban areas. In addition to improving the quality of life of millions of South Africans, the electrification programme has resulted in the creation of small, medium and micro enterprises within disadvantaged communities.

It must be said, however, that Government is deeply disturbed by the practice of not keeping price increases within inflation limits. Pricing policy is complex, and Eskom’s case is no exception, but we must be sensitive to the fact that prices higher than the inflation rate undermine Government’s macroeconomic objectives. The costs to the economy are great, but the negative impact on the poorest of the poor is simply not acceptable.

SOEs also promote development programmes beyond our borders. Eskom Enterprises operates in over 30 African countries, covering generation, transmission and distribution sectors across the continent. Transnet divisions are spreading their activities into Africa as well. Denel has also built a platform for improved capacity with defence and security establishments for greater potential participation in peacekeeping activities. South Africa will continue to promote a policy of commonality and interoperability of equipment.

South Africa is a proud member of the African community of states. We are blessed with natural resources, human skills, strength of industry, and solid defence and security capabilities. We are a burgeoning democracy. When we consider South Africa’s contribution to Nepad, particularly that of our SOEs, we understand that there are no borders between our RDP programmes and how we should operate on the continent. Just as we emphasise SMMEs and BEE in South Africa for historical reasons, so we encourage our SOEs, when they operate in African countries, to apply similar principles of empowerment and local support.

In the welter of reports around the invasion of Iraq, little note has been taken of Denel’s mine clearance activity in northern Iraq under a United Nations mandate. Mechem’s team consisted of 27 South Africans, 689 local Iraqis and Kurds, and 180 mine-detection-trained dogs.

They have cleared nearly 10 million square metres of landmines and unexploded ordnance in Mosul, Dohuk, Ebril and Sulaimaniya. Thankfully the South Africans have left Iraq and are safe, but I must express concern about the safety of the Iraqi and Kurdish members of the team who remained in Iraq along with the dogs. The current US-led invasion has turned back the clock considerably with the prospect of even greater horror for the local population as landmines, cluster munitions and other unexploded bombs litter the Iraqi countryside once more. Mechem’s team remains on standby to return to Iraq at short notice when called upon by the United Nations to do so. I must commend their excellent if extremely dangerous work. We wish them Godspeed and hope and pray for their safety. The tragedy really is that the situation was avoidable and, indeed, should have been avoided.

I have sketched the achievements of our SOEs and our restructuring programme in bold strokes and identified ongoing challenges. Most important of all, the evidence of our collective endeavour tells me that we have truly turned the corner. No longer are the SOEs financial albatrosses around Government’s neck. No longer do they wastefully absorb precious human and other resources. They are engaged in a transformation of personnel and purpose to become truly efficient contributors to the economic development of Africa, let alone South Africa. Although problems still arise, as is natural, I would suggest that these are isolated incidents whose impact should not deviate them from their important task. We therefore commend SOEs for the work that they have done and the successes that they have made from the shop floor to the boardroom of all SOEs. [Applause.]

Hon members, Chris Hani belongs with other African leaders who were cut down by colonial and reactionary oppressors: Bambata, Johannes Nkosi, Omar Mukhta, Eduardo Mondlane, Patrice Lumumba, Dedan Kimathi [Applause.] He was never shy to confront challenges and always demanded clarity of purpose, commitment to co-operation and consultation. His example is a valuable lesson for us all. May we all continue to learn from him. It is customary to thank a range of people at the conclusion of a budget speech, but I shall reserve my appreciation and thanks until my reply so that I may reflect first on what participants of this debate may say about their performance. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr B A D MARTINS: Madam Speaker, hon Minister for Public Enterprises, esteemed members of Parliament, nine years since the historic advent of democracy in 1994, Government has made steady progress in addressing apartheid’s dubious legacy of inequality and abject poverty. This has required the development and implementation of substantial programmes for expanding service delivery and confronting the stubborn socioeconomic disparities still found within South African society. This state of affairs has further required ensuring sustained economic growth in a mercilessly competitive and volatile global setting, whilst at the same time consolidating democracy and a culture of human rights, reconciliation and peace.

Two successful rounds of democratic elections have also seen the consolidation of democracy. If truth be told - and it must be told - the ANC has steered the ship of state well in these sometimes rough and stormy waters. It has charted a path of more effective and speedier transformation towards development and improved the quality of life for all South Africans, especially for workers and the poorest of the poor. The evidence of concrete experience tells us that the historic position of the ANC on state asset restructuring remains correct and valid. These positions have sought to redirect state-owned enterprises towards the developmental goals of the state. In the context of the many complex challenges facing our society, a case by case approach to restructuring has informed the approach of the department.

There are still some people, however, who think that restructuring is simply a polite word for privatisation. Restructuring is a far more complex process with a variety of options and results. Those averse to a powerful developmental state constantly appeal to reduce the state’s involvement in economic activity and wish even to curtail its regulatory functions in favour of naked market forces. Adherents of this approach view the state sector and state-owned enterprises in democratic South Africa as nothing more than single-opportunity cash cows to be milked to death once and for all, through the wholesale disposal at bargain basement prices, to consolidate and even create a concentration of capital in select private hands in South Africa. The same people decry infrastructure investment as unprofitable and the improvement of people’s social conditions as patronage.

Hon members, state-owned enterprises must continue to meet the developmental goals of South Africa. The objectives of the restructuring of state-owned enterprises, which include increased efficiency, enhanced service delivery, mobilisation of private sector capital, economic growth, employment, human resource development and black economic empowerment, should be pursued with increased vigour. Proceeds realised through the restructuring of state-owned enterprises since 1997 amount to R27,6 billion, of which R18,4 billion was paid to the National Revenue Fund.

The Government’s programme of restructuring various state assets remains an integral part of the broader reconstruction and development of South African society. It is envisaged that restructuring will improve the overall competitiveness of the country’s economy both from a macroeconomic and a microeconomic perspective by lowering production input costs in the economy. By lowering the cost to consumers it promotes wider access for consumers to affordable services. Significant progress has been made in the restructuring programme. A key achievement for 2002-03 is progress in the restructuring of Denel, Transnet and various noncore entities. The focus of restructuring activities for 2003-04 and beyond will be on the energy, forestry and transport sectors.

The public debate about restructuring confirms the fundamental realities of our society. State-owned enterprises permeate almost all aspects of our lives on a daily basis. They provide the essential services, such as electricity and transport, critical to our goal of a better life for all. It is thus important for state-owned enterprises to remain accountable to the public and it is important that they administer their prices within acceptable levels.

As a portfolio committee we are concerned about the impact of some of the recent price increases on poor households, especially that of Eskom. Hon Minister, I wish to call on the department to ensure that this matter is addressed as a matter of urgency. A related matter where we think there should be clear policy is in the allocation of performance bonuses for management. Whilst recognising that performance bonuses are a legitimate way of providing incentives it is, however, important that state-owned enterprises do so within a policy framework so that there is transparency and so that such a process is not manipulated.

Hon Minister, concerns have also been raised about safety on our trains. I am aware that safety is a transport function; however, as a shareholder department, I should think that there are interventions that could be made by Metrorail and Transnet in this regard. We are also concerned about the ongoing legal dispute between Metrorail and civil society organisations, especially in the Western Cape. We accept that restructuring will serve to integrate the country’s public, private and social capital and expertise to maximise South Africa’s economic growth. Under our democratic dispensation, however, political democracy without economic democracy will have no true meaning. Our Constitution entrenches both civil and political rights as well as economic rights. In sum, what we describe as quality of life flows from the structure and management of the economy. The ANC remains dedicated to creating a better life for all our people and pushing back the frontiers of poverty. The ANC supports this Vote.

In conclusion, ten years ago today when I received a phone call informing me about the assassination of Comrade Chris Hani, the following words by the poet Brecht acquired a new meaning for me:

this is the year which people will talk about, this is the year which people will be silent about.

the old see the young dying, the foolish see the wise die.

the earth no longer produces, it devours, the sky hurls down no rain, only iron …

I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr R J HEINE: Madam Speaker, the DA also remembers Chris Hani on the 10th anniversary of his death. [Interjections.] His contributions form part of our glorious collective South African history.

On the day of the listing of Telkom on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange and the stock exchange in New York, the DA issued the following statement, and I quote:

For the first time since the ANC became the Government, a public listing of a parastatal is taking place. We want to congratulate Government on this bold step. Despite stern opposition from some quarters, including members of their own alliance, they stood their ground. This is about empowering the people and not only a black elite. The DA has been supportive of public participation all along.

Notwithstanding the depressed market conditions, and much could be argued about the timing of the listing, we maintain that this is absolutely the way to go. The focus and energy that has been directed at a successful IPO, must now be turned to encouraging competition where previously the state had a monopoly.

We would like to appeal to the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues to follow through with this process and not to be sidetracked by opponents of privatisation.

The listing of Telkom has raised the profile of the Government’s privatisation programme dramatically on the international stage. The challenge ahead is not to lose momentum on the sale of state assets now.

The announcement by Mr Sivi Gounden, the Director-General, about his resignation from Public Enterprises, will hopefully not slow down the process, and let me take the opportunity to thank him for his efforts in this process and wish him well in his new career.

Mr Minister … I don’t see the Minister around, but nevertheless … Where is he? [Interjections.] Oh, thank you. Mr Minister, in announcing the DA’s economic policy, we make the point that privatisation is not only important in its own right, but is looked upon by potential investors as an important indicator of a Government’s mindset with regard to private enterprise and a market-orientated economy. The listing of Telkom is ample proof of the correctness of this view.

South Africa’s privatisation programme has at times been a disaster. Let’s admit that. Unnecessary delays, continual ambivalence, infighting within the tripartite alliance and excessive conditionality have cost South Africa dearly. South Africa has lost out badly because of the slow and inappropriate process. Billions of rands have been lost as a result of Government’s failure to implement a workable privatisation plan timeously.

Let us not dwell on the past. Hopefully we have learnt from our mistakes. Let us move forward and proceed with urgency. South Africa should be privatising R15 billion to R20 billion of state assets and enterprises per year for each of the next five years, and the proceeds should be used primarily to reduce state debt. Part of the proceeds of privatisation should be set aside for education or retraining of workers who may become redundant as a result of privatisation.

Mr Minister, in your presentation to the portfolio committee on your planned activities for 2003-04, you listed energy, telecommunications, defence, transport, forestry, Alexkor and Aventura as priorities. Under transport you listed concession of the Durban Port, as a first series of port operation concessions. May we suggest that the concession of the Durban Port be treated with great urgency, as this is affecting our export and import operations.

You also stated that the Airports Company of South Africa’s ``End State Model’’ is currently under review. Let me reiterate that there is no reason why restructuring of ACSA has been put on the back burner for so long. I would urge you, while you are also acting as Minister of Transport, to give urgent attention to this matter. Again referring to our economic policy, the DA will apply the following criteria in order of importance when evaluating privatisation bids: firstly, the ability to do the job, that is where a public service is concerned; secondly, increasing competition and market efficiency; thirdly, the price offered for the state asset; fourthly, technology and skills transfers; fifthly, foreign exchange earned; and sixthly, empowerment.

If these criteria had been strictly adhered to, and good corporate governance was in place, we would not have had the following unpleasant experiences, and let me just mention a few: firstly, the Komatiland forestry debacle. The whole process has now been delayed for more than a year, because of … Well, that history is well known to everybody. Secondly, the Transnet privatisation process, where a tender was awarded to Skotaville Press, which resulted in damages of R57 million awarded by the High Court to the unsuccessful bidder, who was obviously better qualified than Skotaville Press. It is a waste of taxpayers’ money, and we have referred this matter to the Public Protector for investigation. Thirdly, donations were made by parastatals to the ANC network lounge, amounting to between R70 000 and R140 000 per parastatal. This matter has been referred to the Auditor-General for investigation.

Lastly, let me turn to Eskom and the announcement of tariff increases, which has not been accepted by consumers in a positive light. I agree with the Minister and I also agree with the chairman of the portfolio committee that they are deeply concerned and disturbed by this tendency. Let us consider the following: Eskom declared R250 million in dividends to Government. The questions that I have are: What are the unpaid electricity accounts of, firstly, Government; secondly, provincial governments; thirdly, municipalities and fourthly, Zimbabwe? Are we perhaps subsidising Zimbabwe on electricity?

It was further announced that Eskom lost R127 million in a foreign exchange deal because the procurement department did not follow the required procedures. Then there was an investment in Mountain Communictations (Pty) Ltd to the amount of R46 million and the nondisclosure of all the investment transactions, and in particular a guarantee that gave rise to a continuance liability for Eskom of R424 million. That is absolutely shocking!

The above nondisclosure constituted procedural noncompliance with the PFMA, and as my chairman has correctly raised, at the same time, it is announced that performance bonuses, amounting to over R6 million, have been allocated to certain top executives. Is this justified in view of the above? We are all in favour of performance-related bonuses, but not nonperformance- related bonuses. [Applause.]

This whole matter is cause for grave concern, and should be investigated properly. We await the outcome of this investigation urgently. It is sad that, notwithstanding the department’s commitment and assurance that SOEs will strictly adhere to corporate governance principles, these unacceptable practices still exist. No wonder consumers are raising questions on tariff increases while this fruitless and wasteful expenditure is ongoing.

In conclusion, the DA stands for proper and well-structured privatisation proposals, but not for shady deals, questionable actions and noncompliance with the Corporate Governance Charter. I thank you. [Applause.]

Nksz P N MNANDI: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe uBhungane, Sekela Ngqongqoshe, bahlonishwa, maqabane nezihlobo, le nyanga uMbasa yinyanga yezigigaba kithina singuKhongolose.

KuMbasa ngonyaka ka-1652, kwafika uJan Van Riebeeck la eNtshonalanga Kapa elethe ubandlululo nengcindezelo la kwelengabadi.

KuMbasa ngonyaka ka-1979 uhulumeni wamabhunu wanquma uSolomon Mahlangu ePitoli. KuMbasa ngonyaka ka-1993 labulawa iqhawe lamaqhawe iqabane uThembisile Chris kaHani. KuMbasa ngonyaka ka-1994 uhulumeni wabantu wabekwa kule Ndlukazi yesishayamthetho.

Mangiphinde futhi ngivule inkulumo yami ngokucaphuna kusomqulu wenkululeko yezwe owashicilelwa ngenyanga kantulikazi ngonyaka ka-1955. USomqulu weNkululeko uthi bonke abantu bayokwabelana emnothweni wezwe. Umcebo wezwe uyifa lawo wonke umuntu waseMzansi Afrika. Umcebo wezinto ezimbiwayo eziligugu nezimboni kuyodluliselwa ekuphathweni ngabantu. Zonke ezinye izimboni nezohwebo ziyophathwa ngendlela yokuthi zisize isimo sempilo yabantu. Bonke abantu bayokuba nelungelo lokuhweba lapho bethanda khona bazakhele futhi bangenele lonke uhlobo lohwebo nemisebenzi yezandla efundelwayo.

Angizothetha bulanda ngoba angiganisi, ngizongena ngqo kwezamachweba aseMzansi Afrika, ngolukaGoerge i-National Ports Authority. Ngaphansi kukahulumeni wobandlululo amachweba akuleli awazange abe sesimweni sokuvuleleka kumazwe omhlaba futhi akukho nolunci uhulumeni wamabhunu alwenza ekuthuthukiseni amachweba ngoba phela kwakungekho nakancane emaphusheni abo ukuthi ngelinye ilanga izwe liyobuyela kubanikazi balo. Yingakho nje kwathi uma kuthatha uhulumeni oholwa uKhongolose wathola amachweba akuleli eyinkundla yabamhlophe kuphela. Abamnyama babekude le lapho kunzima khona, lapho besindwa imithwalo khona.

Yebo siyavuma izinkinga zikhona emachwebeni akithi futhi ziningi. Imikhumbi nezimpahla kuyabhadla laphaya isikhathi eside kuminyene utshumo emachwebeni. Ubugebengu bukhona, nobugebengu bomshosha phansi bukhona.

Nansi-ke enye inkinga enkulu bakwethu, ubandlululo lusadla umunyu emachwebeni akuleli. Laphaya echwebeni laseRichard’s Bay, i-Richard’s Bay Terminal iphethwe yibona ondlebe zikhany’ ilanga. Kungumzukuzuku uma u- Transnet ethi akudedelwe bonke abavukuzi abamnyama basebenzise le ndawo njengoba phela babencishwe amathuba ubandlululo.

Uma u-Transnet ethumela u-NPA no-Spoornet uzama ukuletha izinguquko ezihambisana ne-Mining Charter kodwa kuze kube yinamhlanje akukho sivumelwano esisetafuleni. Kulolu daba thina singuKhongolose sithi le RBCT ayiwukhombe umuzi onotshwala.

Nansi-ke enye inkinga engaphansi kwechweba laseThekwini. Kukhona indawo okuthiwa iMaydon Wharf. Abaqashe kule ndawo osomabhizinisi abamhlophe bakudalo. Le ndawo bayiqasha kuhulumeni wobandlululo. Banikezwa amalungelo okuqasha iminyaka eminingi, abanye babo yikhulu leminyaka. Abanye sebeyayiqashisa nabo, sekuyingxubevange nje ongayazi. Okubuhlungu ukuthi le ndawo bayikhokhela intela yamanani akudala, njengamasenti amathathu isikwemitha ngalinye ngenyanga. U-100% wabaqashi abakule ndawo abakwenzayo lapha akuhlangene neze namachweba.

Thina singuKhongolose sithi aziphele nya lezi zicagogwana zamalungelo obandlululo. Ngisho nomntanami oneminyaka eyishumi nanye ngeke avume uma ngimupha u-3c. Noqabane uTito Mboweni akasabagayi o-1c.

Thina singuKhongolose siyahambisana nokuhlelwa kabusha kwamachweba. Lokhu akusho ukuthi amachweba akuleli azodayiswa. Lokhu kusho ukuthi amandla okuphatha izingxenye ezahlukene emachwebeni azonikezwa izimboni zangasese kodwa ubunikazi buzohlala njalo bungaphansi kukahulumeni. UHulumeni yena uzobamba iqhaza lokuba ngumasitende.

UHulumeni uzokwazi ukusebenza kahle njengonompempe enze imithetho, abheke kahle ukuthi amanani awambi eqolo, abheke nokuthi izinga lo msebenzi lihlala licokeme ngaso sonke isikhathi, nokuthi imigomo yezivumelwano iyalandelwa na. Masivume bakwethu ukuthi zikhona izimboni okungeke kulunge kuzona uma sizoba umdlali futhi siphinde sibe unompempe.

Yebo siyavuma uHulumeni angawathuthukisa amachweba ngaphandle kokufaka osomabhizinisi bangasese. Yebo imali engafakwa ekuthuthukiseni amachweba iyona le yabakhokhi bentela.

Thina singuKhongolose sithi kunoma uHulumeni athathe le mali engaka ayifake ekuthuthukiseni amachweba, thina siseyizwe elithuthukayo, elinezinkinga zendlala nobuphofu, imali yentela ayiye ekuthuthukiseni izimpilo zabantu okuyilapho idingeka khona kakhulu.

Ukuhlela kabusha amachweba kuzokwenza ukuthi amachweba akithi asebenze kahle kakhulu njengamachweba asemazweni athuthukile. Kuzokwenza futhi ukuthi amazwe aphesheya kwezilwandle akhuthale ekusebenziseni amachweba ethu. Lokhu kuzokwenza ukuthi amanani ezimpahla eziphuma kumazwe aphesheya ehle nje kuphela. Lokhu kuzosiza kakhulu ukuthi osomabhizinisi balapha eMzansi Afrika bakwazi ukuba sezingeni elifana nelozakwabo abakumazwe asathuthuka, kanjalo kuthi nezimpahla ezikhiqizwa kumbe ezitshalwa la eNingizimu Afrika zikwazi ukufinyelela kwezinye izindawo.

Kafishane lokhu kusho ukuthi ukukhula kosomabhizinisi wukukhula komnotho. Ukukhula komnotho kusho ukwanda kwamathuba omsebenzi. Ukwanda kwamathuba omsebenzi kusho impilo engcono kubantu. Impilo engcono kubantu kusho ukuhlehla kwezihibe zobuphofu. Halala Khongolose Halala!

Kwenzekani kubasebenzi uma amachweba ehlelwa kabusha na? Umnyango wezimboni zikahulumeni uzokwenza izivumelwano nalabo abazoqasha ukuthi bangabaxoshi abasebenzi futhi uzoqikelela ukuthi mazakhiwe izinhlelo zokuthuthukisa abasebenzi futhi bavulelwe amathuba okuthi bafundiswe imikhakha emisha. Phela lapha emachwebeni azokwanda amathuba omsebenzi kunakuqala.

Phezu kwalokhu abasebenzi bazovulelwa amathuba okuthi bakwazi ukuthenga amasheya ukuze babe nogqozi nofuqufuqu uma besebenza.

Sizoqiniseka kanjani ukuthi laba osomabhizinisi bangasese ngeke bayisenge ize yome bese bebaleka beyofuna amadlelo aluhlaza kwezinye izindawo na?

UMnyango wezaMabhizinisi kaHalumeni uzoqasha ochwepheshe bamazwe aphesheya ukuba basize ekucwaningeni ukuthi lezi zinkampani eziza lapha zinawo ngempela yini umbele omude. Futhi zizoba nawo yini amandla okwakha izakhiwo ezinobuchwepheshe nobuyoninco. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Ms P N MNANDI: Chairperson, hon Minister Bhungane, Deputy Minister, hon members, comrades and relatives, April is a historical month for us, the ANC.

In April 1652, Jan van Riebeeck arrived here in the Western Cape. He was bringing apartheid and oppression to the land of our forefathers.

In April 1976, the Boer government killed Solomon Mahlangu in Pretoria. In April 1993 a hero of the people, Comrade Thembisile Chris Hani was assassinated. In April 1994, a democratic Government was launched in this House of Parliament.

Let me introduce my speech by quoting from the national Freedom Charter, which was published in July 1955. The Freedom Charter states that the nation’s economy will be distributed to all people. The nation’s wealth is the heritage of every South African. The wealth of the national resources and industries will be transferred so that it will be administered by the people. All other trade industries will be managed in such a way that they assist everybody’s conditions of life. Everybody will have the right to trade wherever he or she wants to. People will build and enter any type of trade and any work that is done by hand and which can be learned.

I will not talk too much, instead I will just go straight ahead and talk about the National Ports Authority. Under the apartheid government, harbours of this country were not at an international level and the Boer government did nothing to improve them, because it did not think that one day the land would return to its real owners. That is why, when the ANC-led Government took over, it found that the harbours of this country were the playing field of the whites only. Black people were out there where they were experiencing hardship and carrying heavy loads.

Yes, we agree that there are problems with our harbours and that those problems are many. Ships and goods just pile up there for a long time. It is always full at our harbours. There is crime and even deep-seated crime.

Here is the other problem, fellow people: apartheid is still alive and it is serious at the harbours of this country. At Richards Bay, the Richards Bay Terminal is administered by the whites. It is a big struggle if Transnet says that all black miners should be allowed to use this area since they were deprived of this opportunity by apartheid.

When Transnet sends NPA and Spoornet there, it is trying to bring changes which are in line with the Mining Charter. But even today, no agreement has been reached. We, the ANC, are saying that this RBCT must face the music.

Here is another problem that the Durban harbour is facing. There is a place called Maydon Wharf. People who are renting this place are conservative white businesspeople. They rented that place from the apartheid government. They were given the right to rent that place for quite a long time. Some have been renting it for a hundred years now. Some are even renting it out to other people. It is a mix-up, one cannot understand what is happening there. The bad thing is that they are still paying the same amount of rent that they used to pay before. They are paying 3c per square metre monthly. There are about 100% of the tenants who rent this place and whose activities have nothing to do with the harbour.

We, the ANC, are saying that we must do away with these small rights that were granted by apartheid. Even my child who is eleven years of age, will not accept 3c if I give it to her. Even Comrade Tito Mboweni is no longer producing 1c coins.

We, the ANC, support the restructuring of the harbour. This does not mean that harbours in this country are going to be sold. It only means that the power to run different sections of the harbours is going to be given to private companies. But the the right of ownership will always belong to the Government. Only the Government will play the role of landlord.

The Government will be able to act as the referee. It will pass laws and see to it that prices are not too high. It will also see that the level is always high and that the terms of agreement are respected. We must accept that there are industries in which we cannot be players and referees at the same time.

We agree that the Government can improve harbours without involving private companies. Yes, the money that can be used in improving the conditions of harbours is the taxpayers’ money.

We, the ANC, say that instead of the Government taking this money and using it to improve harbours, we must remember that we are still a developing country. We are a country that still has problems with poverty. The taxpayers’ money should be focused on programmes that are aimed at improving people’s lives, which is where it is most needed.

Restructuring our harbours will help them to improve and they will function well, like harbours in developed countries. It will also encourage countries overseas to use our harbours. This will also reduce the price of the goods from overseas. It will also help South African businesspeople to be at the same level as their counterparts in developed countries. Even the goods that are produced in South Africa will reach other countries.

In short, this means that when businesspeople improve, the economy will also improve. When the economy improves, there will be more job opportunities. More job opportunities will mean a better life for people. A better life for people will mean that the frontiers of poverty are being pushed back. Congratulations, ANC! Congratulations!

What will happen to workers if harbours are restructured? The Department of Public Enterprises will conclude an agreement with those who will rent these harbours not to retrench workers. This department will also see to it that programmes to improve the skills of workers are implemented and that they are taught new skills. There will be more job opportunities at the harbours than before.

Opportunities will also be open for workers so that they can buy shares so that they will have the courage to work. How are we going to ensure that the private companies will not suck up all the wealth and then leave the industry for other greener pastures?

The Department of Public Enterprises will employ experts from other countries who will assist us in finding out which companies are going to offer a more worthwhile service. We will also have the power to build structures of science and technology. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr M S M SIBIYA: Chairperson, today marks the 10th anniversary of the assassination of Chris Hani. The IFP pays tribute to this freedom fighter, may his spirit still live on. [Applause.] It is an honour for me to once again participate in this Public Enterprises Budget Vote. Firstly, the IFP believes that the Minister and his department should be commended for the work that they have done with the running of this department over this past year. A lot has been achieved, the most notable the successful completion, after numerous setbacks, of Telkom’s initial public offering. We hope that this will set the tone for another successful public offering and for the department.

South Africa cannot afford to lose momentum on the privatisation and the restructuring of state-owned assets in the various sectors, as the recent successful listing of Telkom has dramatically raised the profile of Government’s privatisation programme on an international stage. An amount of R60,205 million is to be voted for the Department of Public Enterprises in the 2003-04 Budget Vote. This amount represents a decrease of R188,837 million or 75,8% from the R249,078 million that is shown in the 2002-03 adjusted appropriation. This big decrease is as a result of funds that were rolled over from the 2001-02 budget to the 2002-03 budget in order to accommodate the initial public offering of Telkom that took place earlier this year.

The aim of the department is to direct and manage the accelerated restructuring of state-owned enterprises to maximise shareholder value. As I mentioned in my budget speech of last year, if the restructuring process is to be successfully and swiftly completed, organised labour and Government have to work together. They should continue to engage in discussions and try and reach an agreement with regard to the restructuring and privatisation of state-owned enterprises.

There has been significant progress made in the restructuring programme thus far, with over 27 transactions undertaken in various sectors between 1999 and 2002. The IFP fully supports the restructuring of state assets, but we urge the Minister to find additional ways of including the majority of the population in the process so as to ensure that they also get some of the benefits.

We must also congratulate the Minister and his team for their efforts in creating great public awareness and interest in the Telkom initial public offering, as a large number of people did register to buy shares. We hope that the second round of bidding for Government’s Komatiland forests will be more successful than the original bid. We must again commend the Minister for cancelling the entire original bidding process and putting it out to tender for a second time, after it was discovered that the bid rules and procedures were breached. Corruption of any sort must not be tolerated and needs to be stamped out in the department.

There should be a concerted effort on the part of the department to get SOEs into a position whereby they can be used as examples of how well-run businesses should operate and lead the way for businesses in the private sector to follow. The first step to doing this is to root out all the corruption, irregularities and controversies that are currently plaguing the parastatals. The awarding of tenders has come under the spotlight recently and is one area in particular that requires urgent attention. The tendering process should be conducted and contracts awarded in a transparent and open manner where all who comply with the relevant requirement of the tender have an equal chance of getting the contract.

As part of their affirmative action drive, the department should encourage SOEs to increase the representivity of women and the disabled at all levels. Real black economic empowerment and its promotion is a priority. Although the department is making great strides to empower the previously disadvantaged and has awarded a number of key contracts to previously disadvantaged groups, BEE is still mainly taking place at a higher level. It needs to be brought down to the people. There has to be a greater effort when dealing with BEE to get it to benefit a larger and wider pool of people.

The restructuring of state-owned enterprises provides the department with a perfect opportunity to lead the way with BEE and empower the majority of the people and not just the few that have up until now been the main beneficiaries. We urge the Government to guard against creating another black middle class as is the case in other countries.

The recently released broad-based strategy for black economic empowerment by the Department of Trade and Industry is greatly welcomed and gives us hope. It is an indication that the Government is very serious and sees black economic empowerment as a priority. We hope that this will assist in bringing empowerment down to a level where it will benefit the majority of South Africans. The IFP support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson and hon members, in my contribution to this debate, I will focus on Programme 2 of the department which deals with the development, implementation and management of the restructuring programme in order to meet Government’s social and economic objectives. Having been part of this portfolio committee since 1999, I can recall the enormous challenges facing this department then.

At the time, the performance of state-owned enterprises fell short of the objectives set by Government. This period was marked by the collapse of corporate governance within Transnet. The financial position of Aventura was precarious and many other anomalies existed. Since then, a significant improvement in the performance of state-owned enterprises is evident.

The hon Minister has referred to the improvement in the financial position of Transnet which has enabled the state-owned enterprise to invest billions of rands in infrastructural projects in rail, ports and airlines. These positive developments are not a coincidence, but are the result of policy choices the Government has made since the mid-90s.

Members of the portfolio committee have continuously engaged the department by asking probing questions on key policy issues on the performance of various SOEs. The department and SOEs resorting under it have consistently provided high-quality information central to the realisation of Parliament’s oversight role.

It is important for this vital oversight function to continue, not in an attempt to be destructive or negative, but rather to ensure that the process of restructuring succeeds. My experience in the portfolio committee for the last few years and the current balance sheet of the restructuring process suggest and convince me that the department is succeeding in redirecting SOEs towards the development objectives of Government.

This brings me to the controversy that surrounds the Komatiland forestry deal. You need to be commended for the decisive action taken in this regard, which sent out a clear message on the firm and consistent action that is necessary to address corruption. This is unlike the pre-1994 era when mismanagement of state assets was the order of the the day.

The example of Club Privé within Aventura is an illustration of the extent of the malpractices that prevailed at the time. In this scheme, investors made a minimal investment of a few thousand rands which guaranteed them free holidays for 10 years at the best holiday resorts in our country. At the end of the 10-year period, investors are entitled to a full return of their investment, plus interest accrued for this period. We welcome current efforts by the department to finally close the book on these historical anomalies.

It is important to recognise the strategic significance of some of the interventions by Government. A key strategic intervention by Government led to the delay in the listing of Telkom, since market conditions were not favourable at the time. This illustrated Government’s commitment to enhance the role of SOEs, thereby ensuring that the full potential and value of SOEs are realised.

It is against this background that we have witnessed the successful listing of Telkom on the JSE and in New York. This success is a clear indication that the restructuring progress is embedded in firm and solid management, which has resulted in numerous benefits to our society and the economy.

Today, as part of a larger family of people who seek to advance the interests of the overwhelming majority of South Africans, I wish to call on the department to further accelerate their efforts to enhance service delivery in a cost-effective and efficient manner.

We should not lose sight of the fact that the restructuring process is very complex and dynamic. Concerns raised by trade unions, regular briefings by the department and SOEs to the portfolio committee as well as the public debate on restructuring, are indicative of the challenges and difficulties we face. Irrespective of these challenges, the restructuring and transformation of SOEs must continue.

However, it is important for us to appreciate the difficulties facing some of our SOEs. In this regard, I wish to highlight the position of Alexkor and the complex nature of challenges it faces. Reasons for the lacklustre performance at Alexkor can be ascribed to the following factors: lack of investment, which contributes to low production, which in turn leads to job insecurity, theft of diamonds and lack of proper and effective management structures. All these factors combined led to a situation where Alexkor became unprofitable.

The financial position of Alexkor for the last three years is as follows. In 2001 it made a loss of R45 million, in 2002 the profit was R1,7 million and the prospect for this year is looking good.

The turnaround in the past two years as far as building profit is concerned was mainly due to the favourable rand and dollar currency fluctuations. However, this turnaround is of a short-term nature and is not a solution to the long-term problems facing these SOEs.

Investment required in exploration in order to turn Alexkor into a profitable and a sustainable business is estimated at not less than R100 million. The state, in the light of the pressing social priorities, will not be in the position to provide all the resources needed in this regard. Therefore, it has become imperative to sell off 51% of the entity to the private sector. By so doing, it would be possible to mobilise the necessary resources for investment in exploration, which could result in returns of billions of rands to the state coffers. Investment in exploration would lead to increased production and result in job security. At the same time, the people of Namaqualand in the Northern Cape stand to benefit in the form of a 10% stake reserved in the community trust.

However, a key challenge to the entire process is the recent judgment of the Supreme Court, which ruled in favour of a community land claim. The hon Minister’s department needs to approach this matter positively in order to build a strong partnership with the local community to ensure that the restructuring of Alexkor brings long-term benefits to the people of the region and the country as a whole. I trust that the hon Minister’s department and the Board of Alexkor will work hand in hand with the community to ensure long-term prosperity. That will continue the Government’s quest to push back the frontiers of poverty. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms N D NGCENGWANE: Chairperson, today marks yet another year when we as public representatives from the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises assess and evaluate ourselves on the mandate which we were given by the people of South Africa. Today we are talking about the state-owned enterprises, and I am going to talk about Transnet. I must state from the outset that I am in support of the budget of the DPE.

I am assuming that we are all aware of the history of Transnet. Transnet has a total asset base of R72,3 billion. The turnover for the financial year ended 31 March 2002 was R35,8 billion and a profit of R3,4 billion for this period was reported. This is the largest public company in our country. It serves as the nerve and vein that move goods and services within our economy. Therefore, the state of Transnet is in itself linked to the health of our economy. The Government’s approach is one of ensuring that through restructuring of the transport sector we reduce the cost of doing business in our South African economy. The performance of Transnet and its divisions is vital to achieving competitiveness of South African goods.

As we are all aware of the history of this country, we really appreciate the commitment of Transnet to the development of this country, especially the socioeconomic objectives. The apartheid era left a legacy of social and economic infrastructure that is not integrated. The rural areas are in the poorest, worst conditions because their needs were never considered. Over two decades, Spoornet and Transnet have not spent on capital investment due to the limited resources. Spoornet has been faced with big challenges due to high maintenance costs, poor service because of the ageing fleet, and infrastructure.

Spoornet and Transnet have so far approved the acquisition of new rolling stock and infrastructure investment to address the poor performance, safety, quality service and others. The cost of the new fleet is estimated at R10 billion in five years. A few years ago, Transnet and its divisions faced many critical challenges, amongst which were the historic backlog and ageing infrastructure, rolling stock that was never upgraded for the past 25 years and cable theft that caused train delays.

The pension funds debt burden hindered Transnet from realising its full potential. The pension fund liabilities as of 31 March 2001 were R7,5 billion and increased to R8,3 billion as of 31 March 2002. It should be noted that these obligations take into consideration the effects of the recently promulgated Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Act during the year 2000, which resulted in the decline of overall pension liabilities by R4,4 billion from 2000 to 2001.

Development is all about improvement for millions of poor South Africans, and it is about equity and justice. It is all about democracy and popular participation of all people for this country, but Transnet goes beyond that. Long before our President called for a united action to push back the frontiers of poverty, Transnet took an initiative in support of Nepad in assisting millions of people in neighbouring countries like Malawi, Zambia, Lesotho, Zimbabwe, Swaziland and Mozambique by sending millions of tons of maize in famine relief.

Transnet also takes part in corporate social investment, such as building schools in rural areas and supplying computers to them. Transnet is committed to investment in education as part of its drive to help break the cycle of poverty in the country. It is through education that this yoke of poverty can be broken. A budget of R14,9 million has been set aside for infrastructure provision and capacity-building at impoverished schools in South Africa’s rural areas. This is a deliberate attempt to bridge the widening digital divide and to bring rural learners on par with their peers in affluent areas and the rest of the world. Those who participated in the Imbizo activities last week have witnessed Transnet’s investment of R8,4 million in the community of Taung in the North West province.

In conclusion, it is the responsibility of each and every individual here in this country to pay for services rendered, be it electricity or transport services. At the same time, the ANC-led Government has made provision for free basic services for households that cannot afford such services. Let us appreciate the fact that some of our SOEs are globally competitive and of world-class standard. Government can only provide the framework and policies. And it is the institutions such as these SOEs with good leadership that will position the country competitively in the global economy. The HIV/Aids issue is also taken seriously by all the SOEs in their programmes.

Today I stand tall and feel proud to be a South African. We wouldn’t be where we are today with the SOEs, had it not been for the good leadership skills shown by different leaders in different departments of SOEs. They have shown vision and commitment to whatever they did. Ladies and gentlemen from different SOEs, you are true patriots of this country.

Some writer said, and I quote:

Leaders are navigators, who see more than others see and see further than others see, but also see before others do.

In one of the books I read, written by Luli Callinicos, about the former President of South Africa, he said:

I have walked that long road to freedom. I have tried not to falter. I have made missteps along the way, but I have discovered the secret that after climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are more hills to climb. I have taken a moment here to rest, to steal a view of glorious vista that surrounds me, to took back on the distance I have come. But I can only rest for a moment, for with freedom come responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not yet ended.

That goes for all of us too. Freedom comes with commitment and responsibilities. I thank you.

Dr W A ODENDAAL: Chairperson, I would like to sincerely wish Mr Sivi Gounden, outgoing Director-General for Public Enterprises the best of luck and all the success he needs for the next chapter in his life. He and his personnel did an excellent job with the privatisation and the restructuring of South Africa’s state-owned enterprises.

This, of course, means that the Minister for Public Enterprises as a senior political partner in this venture also deserves to be congratulated on his successes thus far. South Africa did indeed benefit by privatisation, unlike countries such as Argentina and Brazil where money raised from the privatisation, process was merely wasted by dumping it into a bottomless pit of state debt.

The upgrading of infrastructure announced by the Minister during his budget speech today will certainly have a far-reaching, positive effect on South Africa’s future economic performance and our ability to combat poverty. The New NP therefore supports this Budget Vote.

There were some hiccups, however. Some unfinished business needs to be attended to and the same mistakes made up to now, if heeded properly, can be avoided. One of the major factors considered by local and foreign investors before they embark on new ventures is the decision-making predictability of the Government of the day. Investors take calculated risks, but nobody wants to invest if an uncertain decision-making environment prevails that makes it almost impossible to predict future economic variables.

South Africa suffers from a worrying degree of government unpredictability. Issues come to mind, such as the South African Government’s indifferent stance on the property rights debacle in Zimbabwe and the future impact this may have on property rights in South Africa. Up to now nobody has been willing to predict what effect the murky governmental policy on HIV/Aids is going to have on the labour force and the subsequent effect on economic growth in our country.

What is relevant to this debate is that the restructuring/privatisation process contributed in a major way to the problem of Government’s unpredictability. The stop-start approach with privatisation of SAA and Telkom, for instance, led to great book losses for the fiscus and bred more uncertainty amongst investors. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes. The restructuring of Eskom and other state-owned enterprises lies ahead. Let us avoid the same mistakes.

The second issue I would like to address is that of black economic empowerment. BEE is one of the major objectives of the privatisation programme and aims to empower and enable members of previously disadvantaged communities from all walks of life to participate in the South African economy.

The New NP believes that we will not succeed in making the new South Africa work if we do not effectively address the problem of poverty through the process of job creation. To achieve this goal it is imperative that we simultaneously attend to the creation of a strong black middle class as well as that affluent black upper class. Without plenty of black captains of industry, The necessary number of job opportunities will not be created to supply the vacuum for the poor to prosper into.

However, the problem is that the perception has firmly been embedded that the masses of the people will never benefit from the BEE process, only the fortunate few share in prosperity. Wealth will only be distributed amongst the inner circle of party faithfuls.

BEE for many still means nepotism, self-enrichment, political favouritism and jobs for pals. When outsourcing for preferential procurement is done, in too many cases it only proves to be a case of self-enrichment. Such perceptions may nullify all the good work that has been achieved so far. Everybody serious about empowering the disadvantaged will accept the concept of preferential procurement as long as it is based on merit, which means awarding Government contracts to competent black bidders and competent black entrepreneurs and not faithful party supporters alone. The case of Schutte still will not go away.

Transnet simply discarded the tenure of a certain black empowerment bidder with the required expertise and resources to succeed with the job in favour of this incompetent bidder allegedly financially tied to the ANC. This kind of conduct surely has to be rooted out from the BEE programme.

As is the case with affirmative action, BEE is still perceived to be based on acquirement rather than empowerment. Up to now black captains of industry were simply appointed by Government rather than cultivated by means of an enabling empowerment programme and, more importantly to create the climate for private enterprise and entrepreneurship to excel, create wealth and jobs.

Black participation in the economy is still achieved by facilitation rather than by individual excellence. Government is still facilitating black participation in the economy instead of providing the right economic climate for black private initiative to flourish.

I think that the time has arrived for a shift in the focus of AA and empowerment from Government decree and regulation to a programme of enablement for black private entrepreneurs to flourish and to be allowed to be awarded for their excellence.

Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia and other Pacific Rim countries recently created successful economies by encouraging private enterprise and entrepreneurship. Their new captains of industry created wealth, economic growth and the needed job opportunities. South Africa likewise needs to embark on a programme to unleash the entrepreneurial skills among members of disadvantaged communities.

If we can establish sports institutes to enable disadvantaged sportspersons to become world champions, why not create an academy of excellence for disadvantaged entrepreneurs? We are not asking for a negative sunset clause on affirmative action. We are proposing a positive sunrise clause for merit, based on a creative skills development programme for disadvantaged entrepreneurs.

I therefore propose that some of the proceeds from the privatisation process be allocated for the cultivation of such centres of excellence. [Applause.]

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Chairperson, hon Minister, members and comrades, this budget presented today is a very important budget and this budget is presented also on a very important day in our lives: the day on which Comrade Chris Hani lost his life; lost his life through a white racist bullet which had the intention to plunge this country into anarchy, but the ANC was sober and finally everything went well and people accepted that Chris lived his life in the shadow of death. Re batla ho hopotsa maAfrika Borwa, haholo-holo rona batho ba batsho hore comrade Chris Hani o phetse bophelo ba hae ka tlasa moriti wa lefu ho fihlella a bile a eshwa. Mme kajeno lena re beha bajete ena ya Public Enterprises ho bontsha ka moo madi a hae a ileng nwesetsa sefate sena seo rona kaofela mmoho le ba bolai ba hae, re phelang ka tlasa moriti ona wa sona ka kgotso kateng. (Translation of Sotho paragraph follows.)

[We want to remind South Africans, especially blacks, that Comrade Chris Hani lived his life in the shadow of death until he died. Therefore today we put forward this Public Enterprises budget to show how his blood watered this tree so that we, together with his assassins, are now living in peace under its shadow.]

We have had nine years of a legitimate and democratic Government. We have achieved what the apartheid government could not achieve in more than 40 years. The major instruments for social and economic progress, under the control of the state, were in an absolute shambles and the ANC took over in

1. More importantly, state-owned enterprises were facing many difficulties as a direct result of the past mismanagement. Today we are proud to say that under the ANC Government state-owned enterprises have made a major turnaround and are beginning to make a critical contribution to the development goals of our country.

Allow me, hon members, to highlight some of the key benefits of the restructuring process in our country. I will highlight some of the issues and challenges within South African Airways and Transnet.

Hon Minister, we have noted with keen interest the progress that South African Airways, our national airline, continues to make. This is despite the difficulties facing this industry, and the collapse in 2001 of its strategic equity partner, Swissair.

South African Airways has increased its network, entering into partnerships and entering into new routes over the past year. Today SAA flies to more than 20 destinations within Africa with the help of its regional partners, SA Airlink and SA Express. This is more than any other national carrier.

I want to take this opportunity to congratulate SAA on its recent acquisition of a 49% stake in Air Tanzania, with the formation of a new company, Air Tanzania Company Limited, where the government of Tanzania holds the remaining 51%. This partnership with the sister countries in Africa is vital in the realisation of the goals of Nepad.

The modernisation of the South African Airways fleet is in itself an important and positive development. There is no doubt that a modern fleet, with cost-effective and fuel-efficient aircraft which require low maintenance, is key to turning around South African Airways.

In this context, I must say that we are aware of the difficulties that lie ahead in this industry, including protectionist tendencies within the developed countries, where the interests of their national airlines come first.

These positive gains are directly linked to the process of decentralisation and transformation of our country. It is primarily because South Africa is no longer a pariah state among the nations of the world that South African Airways was able to expand its network in this manner. I am also satisfied, as a member of Parliament, that such expansion, informed in the case of business, is towards more so-called strategic interests, than in the apartheid past. Democracy in South Africa has indeed opened the path and creates the opportunities for us as a whole.

Most importantly, South African Airways continues to play an important role in promoting tourism in our country. This was also demonstrated during the recent Cricket World Cup. More people flew into our country. It is also important that South African Airways keeps improving its services to the passengers so that they can feel proud in a manner that gives real meaning to ``Proudly South African’’. Fly SAA.

The consolidation of Transnet’s property portfolio under Propnet was an important development. Already the positive spin-offs of such a decision are beginning to bear fruits. The consolidation should enable us to maximise value and unlock the potential of the properties. As you are aware, Transnet is the second largest property owner after the South African Government. It is vital that we unlock the value of this area in a manner that stimulates local economic development and empowers the majority of South Africans.

Among the major contributions by Propnet, which are consistent with the Urban Renewal Programme, are the following. Portnet purchased the Carlton Centre when it was about to be closed and saved more than 300 jobs. I have not heard anybody saying: ``Mr Minister, what a strategic move to acquire the Carlton Centre to save 300 jobs!’’ This has not been said by anybody and even those who said that restructuring of state-owned enterprises was creating job losses have never seen an intake of 3 000 people. The restructuring process of the ANC is a strategic one; it is a correct one and it is informed by a balance of forces in the economic sector. [Applause.]

Propnet is currently doing a precinct development which is very good. We have also seen this in Bloemfontein, in the Free State, where it is improving the inner city of Bloemfontein to the tune of R100 million to bring life, to resuscitate the economy, so that that place can be a better place. We congratulate Propnet on that.

In Cape Town the Culemborg redevelopment of 60 hectares is also part of this Propnet project. Along with the Roggebaai canal development, which connects the V & A Waterfront with the Convention Centre and ultimately the inner city, these are all things done by Propnet.

Hon Minister, I must also inform you that there are still many Transnet assets that lie idle in most parts of the country. Propnet should complete its registration and ensure that they are better used to the benefit of this country.

Before the restructuring of this, hon Minister, on the brink of democracy, these properties were sold below the market price and people resold them at the market value, while others were stolen. We are saying to Public Enterprises to go and look into those and repossess them and give them back to Government, as it was pillaging and plundering, theft of Government property. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Mr Chairman, the PAC submits that the money allocated to the Public Enterprises budget is quite adequate. We also think that the Minister is doing his work efficiently and effectively.

The PAC holds that the national economy must be planned to promote the interests of its nationals, otherwise the newly independent country emerging from the ravages of apartheid and colonialism will fall victim to the highly dangerous forces of economic oppression and find that it has merely substituted one kind of colonialism for another.

The PAC does not believe that the economic liberalisation on the basic needs and essential services of the nation must be privatised and auctioned to the rich and foreigners. Privatisation of state assets does not benefit the poor in the country at present. The policy of privatisation has made the present Government a helpless spectator that ensures increased profit to the rich. The workers - the important role-players in the economy of this country - have lost jobs on an unprecedented scale. This is where the PAC challenges the leaders of Cosatu who, quite aware of a policy of privatisation which has created massive unemployment, are content with organising a two-day strike against privatisation. No, comrades, with due respect to you, you are missing the point. The weapon against privatisation is how you ask the workers to vote. Privatisation, which has put millions of people out of jobs, needs more than a mere token strike. I’m sure Comrade Chris Hani may be turning in his grave when he sees what the proletariat is getting out of the liberation he fought for.

Statistics show that the poorest of the poor, constituting 77,6% of our country’s population, are the hardest hit by unemployment. Their poverty has increased by 19% whilst the wealth of the minority has gone up by 15%. As a result of this massive unemployment, the number of youths in prisons is frightening. Conditions must be created to give our youth hope, not despair of resorting to crime.

We hear a lot about telephones and electricity which have been made accessible in the rural areas and African townships. The issue is that they are not affordable. Township dwellers pay 30% more per unit than white urban areas. This is up to 10 times higher than off-peak prices offered to business. This means that low-income households are unable to purchase the volume of electricity they need to sustain even the most basic requirements of heating and cooking.

Privatisation is not helping the poor. In state hospitals standards of medical treatment have dropped. Meanwhile, private hospitals have become large commercial houses for the rich and butcheries for the poor who cannot afford the fees. I thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr R J B MOHLALA: Go wele dinatla; go wele boChris Hani. Go wele dinatla, baferehli; go wele kgong tša phethoga; šikiša dira le molapo, mphago wa dira ke meetse. Ke komana-madula-a-bapile, mohla wa dira ga o tsebje. Go wele mosesapholo, go wele morw’a mpaneng, go wele letsogo la go ja dimake, go wele dinatla boChris Hani.

Serurubele ke selo se sebotse; le tšhengwana ke selo se sebotse. Bjale ge o rata dirurubele; o kitimiša dirurubele o nyaka go di swara, tša tsena ka tšhengwaneng, ge o ka fela o tšwela pele go rakediša dirurubele tšeo, o tlile go senya tšhengwana ka gore o tla gata matšoba. Ke molaetša wo ke ratago go o fa seboledi se se fetšago go tloga mo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[Mr R J B MOHLALA: A hero of the struggle has fallen. The cadre of the struggle has fallen. Chris Hani the hero has fallen. Keep troops alongside the river to sustain the energy. They are on the alert all the time. A teak tree has fallen, a volunteer has fallen. A stronghold has fallen. Chris Hani has fallen.

A butterfly is a beautiful thing. And a garden is a beautiful thing. Therefore, when you like beautiful things like butterflies and you chase them, they run into the garden. If you keep on running after them you will damage the flowers. This is the message I would like to give to the speaker who has just left the podium.]

I am really disappointed by the speech by the DA speaker, hon Rudi Heine. I had thought that having interacted with us at the portfolio committee level, he would have appreciated the position with regard to the economy of this Government of the majority of South Africans. Economics should be and is about people. You have done nothing more than repeat market fundamentalism, which is of course probably the policy of the DA. For this reason, however, I want to leave you with a message: You have raised the issue of Skotaville, but, selectively, you chose to ignore the fact that there has been an audit and corporate committee formed by Transnet, a committee that came back and reached a conclusion that neither the department nor the Minister or the director-general have anything to do with that tender. As a result, I apologise. [Interjections.] You never see anything. [Laughter.]

Restructuring of state-owned enterprises is a highly political process in which the powers of the state, international agencies and national political institutions are deployed to achieve transfer of a public service to the domain of private companies. In that process is balanced a divergence of goals in promoting economic efficiencies with state responsibility for ensuring broad social welfare and, as such, to deliver services.

In managing this programme, we need to present a situation which is not merely technical in nature or just a futile exercise of relieving the state of barren, wasteful and inefficient enterprises. In plain English, what I am saying is that you don’t simply restructure that which you cannot manage. You look at the strategic state-owned enterprises and say this is what I want to restructure, and the purpose is to ensure that we push back the frontiers of poverty. Even many members of the elite within your own political party are becoming conscious that the issues involved are much more fundamental than the sale of state-owned enterprises. And in the process, of course, it will be the height of political naivety forever to imagine that political parties like the DA will appreciate this. Let me illustrate this point: In your input, for one reason or the other, I’m still worried. You brought the issue of Eskom and managed to link it with Zimbabwe and say as Eskom we are subsidising Zimbabwe. But in the same breath, on other days you try to feel very, very sorry for the people of Zimbabwe. When they are being helped, you complain. What is it that you really want? [Applause.]

One big mistake that is made very often is that when something wrong happens within the restructuring of state-owned assets, people stand up and shout: Corruption! Let me leave one lesson on corruption: Corruption and capitalism are sons of the same parent called ``greed’’. They have nothing to do with the process and the programme of Government in restructuring state-owned enterprises.

The restructuring process is for this Government one of the major strategic service delivery tools. It is a service delivery in so far as it relates to job creation and economic transformation that aims at increasing growth and development of the economy and an infrastructure to meet the basic needs of our people and strengthen the economic potential of our country. It has been argued that growth and development have to be sustainable and ensure that meaningful jobs are yielded by the economy.

When we look at what has been happening in our country, the following transpires: As and when we restructure, we don’t simply just sell, as other people like us to believe. At the same time, new entities are formed. To illustrate the point: Since Arivia.com was formed it has harmonised the licensing requirements of the whole SADC region and is moving to ensure that Nepad strategies and objectives are realised. It has a contract with the Lesotho government for electoral purposes. This is a consolidation of IT capital of Denel, Eskom and Transnet. There was no selling in this regard; there was reorganisation.

It is not only about issues of ownership. In the case of Transnet, restructuring, among other things, entailed amendments through legislation of the pension fund debt burden. This was done through this very august House - Parliament. But when we want to do whatever we want to do for whatever reasons, we tend to forget these things. This has become a strategic entity. Transnet has been restored to profitability, and as a result has brought huge capital investments in a number of areas.

It would make a lot of sense if people would have taken the advice that I gave to hon General Bantu Holomisa. It’s no mistake that he is not in the House today. [Laughter.] I said to him: Economics is not like a troop of soldiers which are standing to attention and waiting for an order. [Laughter.] And he took that advice so well that he did not even field a speaker for today’s debate. [Laughter.] Maybe the numbers have depleted, I’m not quite sure. [Laughter.] But I would imagine that the DA should learn that lesson, that when we discuss issues of economics we are discussing complex, technical and very involved issues. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you, Chair. Firstly, I need to express a word of gratitude to all members who participated in this Budget Vote debate. Just to answer some of the questions that have been posed by members, on the issue of Eskom, there was a question on the arrears by Government. Yesterday I did give a reply to this honourable House during Question Time, but for those who have not had an opportunity to read that answer, there are some municipalities that owe Eskom, such as Ogies Municipality, Nogeng mine at Cullinan, Nongoma Municipalities, and there have been agreements with all these local authorities to ensure that they pay these arrears.

On Zimbabwe, during the Cricket World Cup I had a meeting with the Minister of energy from Zimbabwe. There are agreements as to how they are going to erase these arrears of theirs with Eskom.

On the issue of the bonuses that have been indicated, I also want to refer hon members to the answer I provided to Parliament yesterday, that we as a Department of Public Enterprises have been very consistent in ensuring adherence by SOEs to ensuring good corporate governance. A lot of things have been done by the department, including strengthening the various boards of directors of Transnet and many others to ensure compliance with the Public Finance Management Act, so that they would be able to tighten the control on financial management issues.

Specifically on bonuses, the decision to award performance bonuses is that of a company. However, our Government recognises the need and urgency of a framework on performance bonuses to guide SOEs wherever they have to make such decisions. It is important to acknowledge, hon members, that performance bonuses are legitimate incentive mechanisms in both public and private sectors. The SOEs, as public institutions, must also take into account the principles of accountability and transparency in doing this. That is why the department, very shortly, will be finalising an overarching policy on how this issue can be handled.

On the issue of safety on trains, our Government is very committed to a safe, reliable and affordable public transport system. I must assure members of the public also that are using Metrorail and other services of Government, that steps are being taken to address this question, including the announcement that we have made an agreement with Transnet with regard to a major infrastructure investment on our rails, which will ensure the safety of our people.

In terms of this dispute we have indicated that there is a need for partnership between Metrorail and all those communities that are represented in terms of this issue of safety and I do believe that we are going to resolve these challenges that we are facing.

The Department of Safety and Security is the one that is co-ordinating the initiative of ensuring that police are put back on the trains in South Africa, so I am very hopeful that the joint discussions that are taking place now, that involve the Departments of Transport and Safety and Security and the provincial and metro structures, are going to resolve this challenge that we are facing.

On the issue of the so-called billions that the Government has lost with the slowness of so-called privatisation, I do not know where these billions are coming from. In fact, this notion of billions lost is a very warped view of saying that if we had listed Telkom so many years ago, this is what we would have got. Those are just opinions of people that have no sense of reality. If one puts it the other way round, if we had listed Telkom and we got all those billions, what would have happened to all those investors now that the real market price or market valuation of Telkom is known? So, there are no billions that we have lost.

The stop-start process, the Telkom IPO, was done in a highly professional manner, with global joint co-ordinators, Deutschebank and J P Morgan, involving our own black empowerment groups, such as the Lekgaya Securities and African Harvest, and Standard Bank, with one of the best legal brains in South Africa, Michael Katz, and others. So I am confident that this transaction has in fact been executed not only professionally, but also successfully.

On the issue of the so-called Transnet and Scotaville Press, I also answered this question yesterday, that the board of Transnet deliberated this matter after a thorough investigation, that neither the Director- General of Public Works nor myself issued any instruction to the board of Transnet to effect this tender. This was done by the Transnet board.

On the issue of the relationship between Alexkor and communities, colleagues will recall that we have a 10% stake that we have reserved for the community of Namaqualand. So we are looking at the issue of the legal case, but the relationship that exists between the Government, Alexkor, the North Cape government and the communities will proceed in a manner that will ensure that the communities of Namaqualand are going to be benefiting.

On the issue of the Richards Bay coal terminal, the ports authority has embarked upon a major expansion of the Richards Bay container terminal, to increase the capacity of the terminal from 72 million to 82 million tons per annum. We are going to ensure that all those BEE coal mining companies are going to benefit from this expansion when they export their coal.

And on the issue of these noncommercial leases, it is an issue that is of grave concern. That is why, in this ports Bill, there is a lot that is being done on this particular issue.

On the SAA deal with Swissair, I am sure that those who are sniffing at this deal must realise that this was one of the most lucrative deals for the Government. I mean a R1 billion windfall in the repurchasing of Swissair is like manna from heaven.

On the issue of BEE and SOEs that have been restructured, there is a lot of progress that is being made, especially on the south coast forest. In Siyaqubeka, for example, there is a programme of ensuring that HDI management increases their stake in the next three years. Already there is progress that indicates what has been achieved.

With regard to Ntate Mbephu, this is the fourth year in succession he is coming with the same issues that we have addressed, time and time again. Maybe he lives in another country, not South Africa; a country called Azania, where he is divorced from reality, so I suggest that he read the National Treasury’s Intergovernmental Fiscal Review, where he will see from the figures on electricity and on water that the Government is really responding to the challenges that face our people. There is no privatisation of municipal services that has taken place in South Africa. Our Government will continue to ensure that the basic services to our people are provided.

Lastly, members, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all state enterprises, the chairs and chief executives and all people who work in SOEs, for a good relationship that has ensued. And I believe that we are going to be moving from strength to strength in ensuring that state enterprises play an important role.

I want to thank Cabinet colleagues for their support; thank the portfolio committee and the chairman for the good working relationship that has ensued. My thanks also go to the collective leadership and workers of the Department of Public Enterprises for the professional manner in which they execute their mandate.

But lastly, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the Director- General of Public Enterprises for the good work that he has done. I have known him for the past 10 years and I wish him well in his new endeavour in the private sector. [Applause.]

I want to commend him, because I believe that he has been one of the outstanding public servants in South Africa. The loss of Sivi Gounden to Government, I believe, is a gain to the private sector, because he leaves the department with our blessing and our best wishes. With what he initiated many years ago, I am sure those who are going to take over from him are going to take this department to a higher level than the one that he has left behind. With those words I would like to say, good luck, Sivi, and thanks for supporting this Budget Vote.

Cocktails, as usual, will be served in the Old Assembly restaurant. Viva DPE! And viva SOE! Viva!

HON MEMBERS: Viva! Debate concluded.

AN ASSESSMENT OF THE LEGISLATION ALLOWING PUBLIC REPRESENTATIVES TO CHANGE PARTY AFFILIATION IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CONSOLIDATION AND STRENGTHENING OF OUR DEMOCRACY

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Mr M T MASUTHA: Chairperson, hon members, colleagues, this debate comes on the occasion of the commemoration of the 10th anniversary of the life of one of the finest of Africa’s sons, the late Comrade Chris Hani, whose life and subsequent untimely and violent death represented his unwavering commitment to political change for the betterment of the lives of our people, particularly the very poor and disenfranchised or previously disadvantaged.

One recalls those passionate words of Mark Anthony when he first saw Julius Caesar shortly after he was assassinated and said:

O mighty Caesar! dost thou lie so low? Are all thy conquests, glories, triumphs, spoils shrunk to this little measure? Fare thee well.

Today, we all bask in the warm sunrays of democracy, the attainment of which was speeded up by the blood that oozed out of Comrade Hani’s veins as he fell and lay still, following the brutal act of his assassins, and for that we remain eternally indebted to him - Lala ngoxolo, qabane. [Rest in peace, comrade.]

In its article entitled ``Floor crossing a curse for our democracy’’, published in November 2002, AZAPO argues as follows:

To the extent that the Constitutional Court decision on floor crossing does not take into cognisance good values, ethics and integrity of a stable political order, its judgement lends itself to frivolous legalism. More so, because the ruling party’s narrow and selfish interests of expansion occasioned the floor crossing saga at all costs. It is by no means to the best interests of the nation and the country.

It continues as follows:

Save for independents, candidates are seconded by their political parties. The party expends financial and material resources in campaigning for their chosen candidate. The party offers the candidate its good name, history and branding to give credence to the election campaign of the individual candidate. As such, what moral rights does such a candidate have to steal in broad daylight the legislative seat so earned? Legislating floor crossing approximates the condonation of cheating and defrauding the electorate by corrupt politicians.

Finally, they state:

Floor crossing is an insult to the sacrosanct concept of the will of the people. It distorts and disfigures the will of the people before dumping it into the deep bottom of the dustbin. Floor crossing is also a real threat to multiparty democracy in the present political landscape in our country. The ruling party has been given the unfair advantage to manipulate and tamper with the results of the elections to the detriment of smaller parties in particular.

These are quite strong assertions indeed and deserve close scrutiny, as is the intention of this debate. In responding to these assertions, allow me to begin with the very foundation upon which our constitutional dispensation is based, namely the founding provisions contained in section 1 of the Constitution and, in particular, paragraph (d) thereof, which state:

1.      The Republic of South Africa is one, sovereign, democratic
    state founded on the following values:


    Universal adult suffrage, a national common voters roll, regular
    elections and a multi-party system of democratic government, to
    ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness.

It is our considered view, as the ANC, as confirmed by the finding of the Constitutional Court, that none of these values is incongruent with the system of floor crossing as introduced by recent constitutional amendments.

Democracy is like a mosaic that consists of colours and patterns in different shades and shapes, which, when viewed collectively, must produce a clear picture that has aesthetic value. The key elements of this mosaic are the electorate, political parties and public representatives, each of whom occupies a unique place in this mosaic, none any less important that the others.

Indeed, in an electoral system such as our own, the electorate choose the party that must govern them, whilst at the same time electing people who must represent them in the decision-making processes of governance. Political parties, on the other hand, present their policies to the electorate in the form of manifestos, on the basis of which they hope the electorate will vote for them. There is no problem with that.

These manifestos do not constitute binding contracts between parties and voters that vote for them, nor do they form legally binding mandates between parties and the political representatives they nominate for election. Departures from these mandates and undertakings, therefore, do not in themselves constitute breaches that can attract successful litigation, save for the political repercussions that may ensue.

In the case of a party, such repercussions may manifest themselves in diminished support from voters in subsequent elections and, in the case of a public representative, in a vote of no confidence against him or her or expulsion from the party, resulting in the loss of his or her seat in a particular legislature or municipal council.

The political landscape is always fluid, dynamic and responsive to changing political circumstances. Contrary to many predictions, the ANC made significant political gains in the 1999 elections by coming very close to obtaining a two-thirds majority, thus significantly improving its 1994 electoral record.

It is also significant to note that the people who have crossed over to the ANC, viewed collectively, constitute a tapestry of different racial, linguistic, geographic and gender backgrounds, confirming the fact that the ANC is premised on the values of diversity and inclusivity. The accusation that by introducing the system of floor crossing the ANC sought to steal seats from other parties is clearly ludicrous, given the overall political support we have amassed, following the last elections.

The outcome of the recent floor crossing is a reflection of various political trends, which include increased realisation amongst those of our people who had doubts about the political intentions of the ANC, that we remain truly committed to the cause of building a new society and creating a better life for all.

The assertion that floor crossing is inimical to multiparty democracy is equally without any substance and is not borne by the facts. The very reason that members of legislatures are allowed to change party loyalties and to even form new political parties, as is evident from the first floor crossing that ended last week, has resulted in the creation of new parties and in the increase in the total number of parties, rather than in their reduction.

The system of floor crossing lends itself in a perfect position to advance the notions of accountability, responsiveness and openness envisaged in the founding provisions of the Constitution, which I alluded to earlier, in that it empowers an important element of the democratic system, namely public representatives armed with inside information about what their political parties are up to, to keep their parties in check on behalf of the electorate. By having the option of depriving their party of their seats, they can compel a situation of meaningful political discourse in their parties, in an unthreatened environment, knowing that they have the option to cross the floor, if they cannot achieve political change within their political parties. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J SELFE: Deputy Chair, unfortunately time does not permit me to follow the very erudite arguments of the hon Masutha.

The DA, Deputy Chair, supported the fourth amendment to the Constitution. We did so because the voters of South Africa, and not party bosses, elected the members of this House. Because of this, members of this House must be able to represent the voters, to speak their minds and vote according to their consciences, without the fear that a party will take their seats from them. We have lost too many members of this House in this way - Andrew Feinstein, Pregs Govender and Jennifer Ferguson, to mention but a few.

These are the reasons it was right to support the legislation, but we would be fooling ourselves if we thought that the public like it. The public feel that politicians who cross the floor put their own careers ahead of the mandate that they had received from those that elected them. The way to overcome the cynicism of the public, is, of course, to introduce a constituency system. But the ANC passed up the opportunity to do so when it rejected the majority recommendations of the Slabbert task team.

At issue then, is the mandate received by MPs from their voters. In 2000 nearly 24% of the electorate supported the DA, because they wanted a bigger, stronger opposition to the ANC. They did not vote for a bigger ANC. They certainly did not vote for some ludicrous form of co-operative opposition. We, in the DA, will continue to build that strong alternative to the ANC, and we salute those who have returned to us, or who are working with us, to carry out this mandate.

The window of opportunity has opened and shut, and we can now assess what the implications are. First, the trend in South Africa is towards a bipolar or two-party system. In our context that means you either support nationalism, or you support liberal democracy. You support mobilisation around groups, or you support the rights of the individual. Either you perpetually reinvent apartheid, or you move beyond it. In short, either you support the ANC, or you support the DA and its allies. It is therefore not surprising that the DA and the ANC were the parties of choice of those who crossed the floor.

The New NP has now reached the end of the road. It has lost nine MPs and eight MPLs. The New NP now has a mere 10 seats out of the 42 in the Western Cape legislature. While the ANC has gone out of its way to say that Marthinus van Schalkwyk will remain the premier, everybody now sees and knows that he does so at the grace and favour of the ANC. He is a puppet premier, the useful idiot, whose job it is to deliver the votes to the ANC that the ANC itself cannot get. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Are you rising on a point of order? The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chair, I would like to ask whether it is appropriate for the member to refer to Mr Van Schalkwyk as an idiot? It seems to me language … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I’ve indicated to you … [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I would like that the Chair should rule this out of order. It is appropriate to criticise individuals, it is another thing to label them.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you. I’ve taken the decision, yes. Hon Selfe, if you will just take your seat for a second. I’ve just been looking at the practice in the Canadian parliament in order to get an idea in respect of this, because of the incident that also arose, I think, either yesterday or the day before yesterday, in a portfolio committee. The practice is quite clear: that the integrity of the individual, who is a public representative, must be upheld at all times. Hon member, if you wish to take a point of order, I will permit you, but I think you should understand that the Chair has the right to be heard undisturbed. I will insist on that. When I am finished with that, you are quite in order to take a further point of order. I need to explain that this Parliament is still a new parliament. It is an evolving practice and therefore it is a practice determined by the rules that it has made for itself, but also, it takes guidance from parliaments that have had much more experience.

Now, the Canadian parliament makes it quite clear that the integrity of the individual, who is a public representative, has to be guaranteed. I would therefore like to indicate to you also what the hon Speaker of this House had to say. She ruled that we should speak to one another and address each other bearing in mind that we will be treated as we treat others. She urged moderation and moderate use of language. And I would therefore like to suggest that words not go beyond normal, moderate use in a situation that is unwarranted because the hon Van Schalkwyk is not in this House to be able to defend himself. If he had been here then I think it would be quite possible for the hon member to defend himself. So, hon Selfe, I would like to advise from the Chair that you moderate the use of language in referring to those who are public representatives. Thank you.

Mr J SELFE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. I shall certainly do that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Are you rising on a further point of order?

Mr J DURAND: Yes, Deputy Chair. The hon Van Schalkwyk only appears in this House at Joint Sittings, which does not normally make him a member of this House, and we have a ruling in this House that members outside this House must be respected by the Chair. I demand that that member withdraw that remark.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon members, please allow the Chair the opportunity to be able to make progress. If you are all going to be speaking while the Chair speaks, it is then not going to be possible for me to try and formulate a train of thought, because you are going to be distracting the Chair from doing that. What I think we will do in this matter is to take further advice, and I will come back to you. Hon member, you may now rise.

Mr K M ANDREW: On the particular term of ``useful idiot’’, I suggest, when you’re taking advice, you get somebody who has some knowledge of history, and the historical connotation of the use of that term … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon members. I just indicated to you that when a person - any member of this House - is taking a point of order, it is right and proper that you observe silence in order that the member can make his point, and the Chair can try to understand. You can have your say after that when we return again to the normal course of the debate. Yes, hon member?

Mr K M ANDREW: Deputy Chair, I’m asking you to make sure that in the consideration the historic origin of the phrase ``useful idiot’’ is not simply a free choice of words. It in fact has a particular context and history, and if looked at in that context it may be educative for some members on my left. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you very much. I think the context is going to be very much to the point in the determining of the ruling in this instance. Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Hon Chair, if I may? I do want to clarify my objection: When in this House any member is making arguments, or has actions they committed, it is my view - that is why I requested you to make a ruling on the matter - that we are entitled to criticise the actions … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon Minister, let me take the point of order, because I think the hon member wants to take it on a procedure. Yes, hon member?

Mr K M ANDREW: Chair, I very much want to test it on a procedure. Thank you very much. On what points does the hon Minister rise? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you. I think, Minister, the matter is in hand. Your explanation, I think, will be unnecessary for now, because the matter is going to be looked at, and therefore I will come back and give a ruling. Hon Selfe, you may continue.

Mr J SELFE: Thank you very much indeed, Deputy Chair. If one needs any further convincing of the New NP’s irrelevance, one need look no further than its by-election record since withdrawing from the DA. For 18 months it failed to contest a single by-election, even in its former heartland of the Western Cape. When it finally did contest a by-election in Swellendam, it came a dismal third.

Now the New NP has raised the white flag once again. It has failed to put up a candidate in Grassy Park. Presumably, it will be backing the ANC. The New NP is a spent electoral force.

Secondly, the ANC has emerged stronger, perhaps too strong. It now commands an absolute majority in the Western Cape legislature. It is also stronger in KwaZulu-Natal, although it does not control an absolute majority there, even with its allies. It nevertheless assumes it has a God-given right to rule, and issues ultimata like some invading force. One glaring absence in the current legislation is the necessity which we should have in our legislation to hold an election if the floor crossing results in a change of political control in any sphere of Government. But here in the National Assembly, the ANC now has more than two thirds of the seats. With this majority it can change the Constitution at will. Again, the ANC has said it won’t tamper with the Constitution and it won’t abuse its power, but we’ve only got its word for it.

One thing is for certain: The ANC may have more than two thirds of the seats in this House, but it certainly does not have the support of more than two thirds of the voters in South Africa. Next year’s election will demonstrate that.

About 50 members of the ANC will not return to this House next year, because the ANC is losing support. The ANC will be smaller, not bigger. The people who don’t come back to the National Assembly will not be high up enough on the list. Those hon members who have recently joined the ANC need reminding that street credibility and service to that organisation is the only way that they will get a return ticket. I predict that many will not.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Yes, hon member, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Nee, ek wil vra of die agb lid bereid is om ‘n vraag te beantwoord? [No, I would like to know whether the hon member is prepared to take a question?]

Mr J SELFE: Nee, ek het ongelukkig geen tyd om ‘n vraag te beantwoord nie. [No, unfortunately, I do not have the time to take a question.]

Finally, five new parties have been formed, the majority consisting of single MPs. Most of these parties have been formed simply because the Constitution doesn’t allow for independents. Most of these parties, I predict, will disappear at the next election, because, as Mrs Suzman will tell you, there is a great deal of time and effort, sweat and tears to convert what may be good ideas into a viable political party.

In conclusion, politicians can chop and change their political allegiance, but our challenges in South Africa remain the same. If the window of opportunity has any enduring value, it will be to make the debate around these issues clearer, and their resolution easier. I thank you.

Prince N E ZULU: Chair, the IFP takes issue with the notion of the floor- crossing legislation serving the purpose of consolidating and strengthening democracy. Indeed, the opposite is - true that the legislation has served the purpose of undermining and weakening democracy.

In 1997 this Parliament endorsed a report of an ad hoc committee charged with evaluating the merits of floor crossing. For a number of reasons, it was held that floor crossing was inappropriate in this country at this particular juncture, and moreover, it specifically made the point that the issue should only be revisited in the context of a different electoral system in which representatives would have a freer mandate than they have at present.

Now, it is true that certain problems arose in respect of the break-up of a particular party which existed only at the local governmental level. Frankly, this could have been left alone, and while the parties to the conflict might not have enjoyed each other’s company, this would not in itself have served the purpose of making local government unworkable. Nonetheless, even if it were to be accepted that some accommodation was required to allow the party concerned to unbundle itself, this has little reaction to the legislation that was, in fact, passed.

We say this because the laws passed were not framed to deal with that particular exigency, because the law dealt with all spheres of government rather than one, and because the period covered by the laws was extended way beyond the period required to become a permanent feature of our electoral system.

In fact, it was apparently earlier on that the break-up of that party served as an excuse to reopen an issue that had already been closed by this very House. It became clear that the legislation was to be used as an instrument to strengthen the ruling party at the expense of democracy.

The fact of the matter is simply that each MP in this House carries the votes of tens of thousands of voters for the party he or she represents. I carry not a single vote for myself and my name is not on the ballot paper. I am a servant of my party placed in this House by way of a pure party proportional list system to serve the interests of my party. I am, as it were, an agent of the party and I carry no free mandate. I stress this point because we need to recognise that this is the electoral system within which we operate. Indeed, it was this very fact that prompted this House earlier to reject floor crossing. We said let this matter be revisited if and when the electoral system is changed.

Well, the results should surprise no one. Yes, the DA has unbundled itself as intended and the ANC has strengthened itself, also as expected. It was clear from early on in the process that a key purpose of the legislation was to empower the ANC to achieve what it could not achieve at the ballot box, namely to seize control of those provinces and municipalities which it did not win in 1999 and 2000, one of which is KwaZulu-Natal.

If you look at the past year from the time the legislation was first mooted in this House until now, it must be sad that South Africa has been subjected to the worst form of politicking as of late. How can this be said to have strengthened democracy? How can it be said to have consolidated democracy? The reality is that the political system is now viewed with contempt by millions of South Africans whose greatest pride was probably our new democracy.

Everywhere ordinary people express their disgust for the type of politics being engaged in. Civil society is one in condemning the floor crossing. Across the spectrum people say they are disillusioned, and they ask whether there is any point in voting again. Everywhere you hear people talking of their votes having been stolen.

People may well talk of a realignment in politics, but one has to ask whether the realignment is one that reflects the aspirations of MPs or the aspirations of the voters. There is a big difference.

The DA has reverted to its constituent parts, but can it really be said that the voters have given the ANC carte blanche to rewrite the Constitution, now that it has the numbers to do so? Can it really be said that the electorate has given its approval to the virtual demise in this House of an important party whose members now sit on the other side of the House? Can it be said that the plethora of single-MP parties reflects real new constituencies? Can it be said that the electorate has given its blessing to a multitude of public representatives gravitating to a one- party honey pot? And, should it come to pass, would the electorate be as ecstatic as the ANC appear to suggest it will should the ANC take control of KwaZulu-Natal? I think the answer to all these questions must be an emphatic no. [Applause.]

Our conclusion, therefore, is that the floor-crossing legislation has not served to consolidate or strengthen democracy. It has instead consolidated the positions of political parties, and it is time this House learnt to appreciate the difference.

Mr J DURAND: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Die Nuwe NP het gedurende 1999 na die kiesers gegaan en ‘n mandaat gevra om ‘n nuwe benadering tot die Suid-Afrikaanse politiek te begin volg. Ons glo dat ons weens Suid-Afrika se unieke omstandighede nie kan voortploeter met die uitgediende Westminster-stelsel nie. Die Nuwe NP glo in ‘n stelsel waarin opposisiepartye en die Regering saam ‘n maatskaplike kontrak sluit om Suid-Afrika te laat werk vir al sy mense. Opposisiepartye moet ‘n konstruktiewe rol speel en ‘n bydrae lewer om die uitdagings wat Suid- Afrika in die gesig staar die hoof te bied. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[During 1999 the New NP went to the voters and asked for a mandate to start following a new approach to South African politics. We believe that due to the unique circumstances in South Africa we cannot toil on with the worn- out Westminster system. The New NP believes in a system in which the opposition parties and the Government mutually conclude a social contract to make South Africa work for all its people. Opposition parties must play a constructive role and make a contribution to overcome the challenges facing South Africa.]

In this plight the New NP looked at different models to achieve this. We formed an alliance with the DP, hoping that this could be a vehicle for nation-building and reconciliation. It quickly became clear that what was good for South Africa was bad for the DA-DP. Our leaving the DA-DP is history. More than 417 DA-DP councillors and two MPs joined us because they believed in our noble cause and nine New NP MPs crossed to the DA. Only they know why.

Almal besef dat ‘n herskikkingsproses waardeur voorvoegsels soos wit en swart in die niet sal verdwyn noodsaaklik is vir die werklike vestiging van veelpartydemokrasie in ons land. Baie min gebeurtenisse het egter al ooit soveel gedoen om die herskikkingsproses moontlik te maak soos hierdie pakket wysigingswetgewing. Hierdie wysigingswetgewing as sodanig beteken nie noodwendig ‘n herskikkingsproses nie, maar hiersonder sal die herskikkingsproses nooit ‘n werklikheid kan word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Everyone realises that a restructuring process through which prefixes such as white and black will disappear is necessary for the true establishment of multiparty democracy in our country. Very few events have actually done as much to make the restructuring process possible as this package of amending legislation. This amending legislation as such does not necessarily mean a restructuring process, but without it the restructuring process will never become a reality.]

Without the legislation which allows elected representatives in all three spheres of government to defect from their parties, the realignment of politics would not be able to take place. Politicians, knowing that their continued membership of a legislature and their income depend upon party discipline, are very seldom to follow the dictates of personal conscience.

The DA-DP pathetic cries of stealing the vote and betraying the voters and the accusation of moral councillors will only serve to highlight their own hypocrisy. Their sudden change of mind when they receive members of Parliament is not principled. Not only did the DP-DA vote in favour of defection legislation, but Chief Whip Douglas Gibson even introduced private member legislation to provide for defections.

The DP themselves have a long track record of gleeful acceptance of defectors from other parties into their own ranks. In fact, the DP-DA consists almost of defectors only. Just look at their MPs to prove my point. [Laughter.] The New NP rejects with utter disgust the hon Leon’s name-calling, categorising defectors - and you must listen, defectors - as computer viruses and cancers that you have to get rid of, while the few defectors who have fallen for the misrepresentations are being welcomed as heroes and not crosstitutes; what double standards!

We agree with the reputable international magazine, The Economist, and many South Africans recently, that the DA is a right-wing party. The hon Tony Leon and the DA acted as the champions of the MDC and the people of Zimbabwe. What do the MDC and its leaders say about Tony Leon and the DA? I quote:

The racist Tony Leon-driven DA are not concerned about the lives of ordinary Zimbabweans.

What do black South African youth say about the DA? They talk of-

… their racist surrogate and their hatred for the indigenous people of Zimbabwe and their passion to crook Africans of their land …

We, in the New NP, welcome the more than 419 public representatives, black, white, coloured and Indian from all towns and cities, who followed their conscience and decided to play a constructive role in South African politics. They joined the New NP because they believed the future of this country lies not in creating white fears, neither in living with black angst, but in creating a caring, nonracial South Africa for all. This right- wing party lost control of more than 15 local councils, including the Cape Town Unicity.

We agree with Carol Paton, senior journalist of the Sunday Times, that the DA-DP cannot govern and should be happy that the ANC-New NP coalition is now governing the Unicity and the Western Cape province. [Applause.]

In conclusion, this Parliament has overwhelmingly voted for the legislation on crossing the floor. The Constitutional Court has found it to be constitutional. The people of the Western Cape and South Africa will enjoy the sweet fruits of this co-operation between the ANC and the New NP that was cemented by this legislation. [Applause.]

Mr G T MADIKIZA: Chairperson and hon members, democracy in the parliamentary context is about the will of the people. The voters have expressed their choices during elections, where they give mandates that last until the next elections. The rallying call for many years of struggle to attain democracy was: One person, one vote. Inspired by this rallying call, many people sacrificed their lives and their health in order to usher in a new South Africa where, indeed, the rule of one person, one vote would be applied.

Assessing the floor crossing, one can say that a new rallying cry has replaced the old one, namely: One MP, 50 000 votes. The voters were not consulted, yet their mandate is fundamentally altered before the next election. If the political landscape changes, then it is the voters that expect the right to express that change.

The UDM remains opposed to this legislation, though we as a player on the political field now have to play by these rules. The voters are disgusted and disappointed and they have said so to anyone willing to listen. I need only switch on the radio or pick up a newspaper to see proof of this. Any party that talks of the strengthening and consolidation of democracy in this context is arrogant and deserves to be punished during the next elections.

Mr D M GUMEDE: Deputy Chair, hon Minister Lekota, the Chairperson of Committees and hon members, in looking for solutions for all the people in South Africa as the ANC started in 1912 in Bloemfontein, the ANC finally yielded to the legislation allowing public representatives to change party affiliation.

This legislation was advocated by the DP, which now calls itself the DA, even before South Africa became a democratic country. The ANC has undertaken research in a number of mature democracies, and it has debated this matter, received advice from a number of quarters in as far as this legislation is concerned, even before deciding on this issue.

Finally the ANC agreed to the legislation so as to consolidate and strengthen our democracy. As our democracy matures, the objectives of development and stability will be realised faster with this legislation in practice. It is therefore surprising now when the very advocates of the legislation opportunistically stand up in this House to say that the legislation was formulated because the ANC wanted a one-party state.

The ANC has demonstrated a number of times that this is not the case, even by appointing a premier from another party in the Western Cape despite the majority it commands in that legislature. Members of the Executive Council in the Western Cape are not only from the ANC but from that party as well. In this the ANC demonstrates inclusivity, tolerance and reconciliation as these provide the right climate to finding solutions in South Africa.

We are a party of solutions, and not the party advocating conflicts. These provide the right climate for development and nonracialism in South Africa.

Abanye bathi i-ANC iwugimbela kwesakhe, abanye bathi ifuna ukucindezela ezinye izinhlangano njengoba kuzobakhona ukhetho … [ubuwelewele.]

ILUNGU: Wena Uthini? Mnu D M GUMEDE: Ngithi i-ANC iqhuba inqubo eyavunywa u-85% kule Ndlu, iningi elingaphezulu kweningi. Le nkulumo yaqala nangaphambili kokuzalwa kwalo Hulumeni. Kungakho-ke kwatholakala ukuthi cishe bonke abantu kule Ndlu bavumelana nalesi simo. Babengekho ababekhuluma ngokuntshontshwa kwamavoti ngaleso sikhathi. Babengekho abantu ababekhuluma izinkulumo zokuthi lokhu kungukundinda nokugcogcoma. Sonke savumelana ngokuthi kuyisimo esifanelekile. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Some people say that the ANC is selfish. Others say it wants to oppress other political organisations as the elections are on the horizon. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: And what do we say?

Mr D M GUMEDE: I am saying that the ANC is carrying out the mandate that was agreed to by 85% of this House, a majority that is more than a majority. This issue was started before this Government was born. Therefore, it was found that almost all the people in this House accepted this state of affairs. No one was talking about the stealing of votes at that time. No one was saying this is tantamount to prostitution and jumping from one party to another. We all agreed that it was a fair thing.]

Can I have your protection Chairperson, please.

Ngaleso sikhathi abanye babekholelwa ochathweni lwemfundisoze yabo yokuthi abantu abayemukeli i-ANC, kuzothi nje emuva kwesikhashana bahlubuke baye kwamanye amaqembu. Lapho bebona ukuthi abantu abalutheki kalula, sebethi lo mthetho wenzelwe ukuba i-ANC agombele wonke umuntu kwesakhe. Sebethi yingoba uKhongolose engafuni ukuphikiswa. Iqiniso ukuthi i-ANC isebenza ngendlela abayithandayo abantu, indlela ethandwa nayilabo ababekhethe ukuba bamele amanye amaqembu. Bathe uma bewezwa amaqiniso, beyibona indlela, bakhangwa isibani sikaKhongolose. Akusibo bodwa, kodwa abaningi bahamba nokuphenduka kwabantu ezizindeni zabo.

Inkulumo ye-ANC yomile futhi icacile ngoba i-ANC ufuna ukuxazulula izinkinga zezwe kuyo yonke iNingizimu Afrika. Abantu bayizwile i-ANC eyikhomba indlela, izinkokheli zamanye amaqembu zayibona zalandela nabalandeli bazo.

Kade ngilalele olunye uhlelo kuMhlobo Wenene, umsakazo wesiXhosa, kwaQumbu kwasuka abantu ngaphambi kwenkokheli, inkokheli elapha ePhalamende yalandela abantu. Ezizindeni eziningi abantu bajikile balandela uKhongolose. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[At that time some people believed the propaganda that said people did not like the ANC, and that after some time people would leave the ANC for other parties. Having realised that people are not easily deluded, they are now saying that this legislation was passed so that the ANC would swallow up everybody into its membership. They now say that it is because the ANC does not like to be opposed.

The fact is that the ANC operates in a way that people like. It operates in a way that is liked by those who were elected to represent other parties. When they discovered the truth and saw the way they were overcome by the light of the ANC. They are not the only ones; some are following the changing trends in their areas.

What the ANC is saying is simple and clear because it wants to solve the problems of the nation in the whole of South Africa. People listened to the ANC when it showed the way. Members from other parties heard the ANC and followed it.

I was tuning in to Mhlobo Wenene, a Xhosa radio programme, and heard that in Qumbu people had made the first move and their representative, who is here in Parliament, followed them. In many areas people have joined the ANC.]

A number of constituencies have indeed changed their allegiances. People examined their lives, parties, constituencies and the best interests of South Africa, and they have found the light and the way in the ANC.

Abanye abaholi bahamba bethi i-ANC ayihambelani nezwi leningi. Abantu bathi sebebajoyinile bathole ukuthi yibo kanye abawondlovu kayiphendulwa. Bakuthola lokhu sebephakathi. Yingakho-ke behlubuka nje. KwaZulu-Natal uKhongolose usemi khona lapho ayemi khona ngemuva kokhetho luka-1999. Uzimisele ukubambisana ne-IFP njengokwesivumelwano. UNdunankulu wakhona usephulile lesi sivumelwano ngokuxosha amalungu e-ANC kuhulumeni wakhe. UKhongolose kodwa usemi lapho ayemi khona ngo-1999 yize uNdunankulu esebaxoshile ongqongqoshe ababili be-ANC.

Yize ithuba lokumkhipha uMantshinga lilihle, i-ANC uthi, ``Cha Mantshinga wena lungisa nje kuphela lokhu esavumelana ngakho’’. I-ANC yehlele ngezansi ebheke ikusasa eliqhakazile kuwo wonke umuntu, hhayi kuphela KwaZulu-Natali kodwa eNingizimu Afrika iphelele. I-ANC ithi makube khona ukubambisana phakathi kwamaqembu amele abantu abenziwa ubandlululo ukuthi balambe. Uthi labo abanobubha abahlale phansi bahlahle ikusasa eliqhakazile, elinentuthuko nokuzwana.

Yilokhu okuzosenza sifake amanzi ezindaweni ezingenawo, sifake nogesi kulabo abampofu, kuphele ukubulalana nokushiselana izindlu kodwa sazi kahle ukuthi sibhekene nobubha; sisizane ekwakheni izindlu kunoma sishiselane izindlu. Izimpesheni lo Hulumeni oholwa yi-ANC usezibeke ku-R700,00, komhlophe nakomnyama, emadolobheni nasemakhaya. Lokho kuzosiza ukuxosha ikati eziko emizini eminingi.

Ngibuyela kulo mthetho, lo mthetho kwavunyelwana ngawo emini kwabha cishe yiwo wonke amalungu akhona lapha. Uyingxenye yomThethosisekelo. Ungomunye wemithetho esidlala ngayo esavumelana ngayo, yimithetho esavumelana ukuthi siyoqhubeka ngayo lapha eNingizimu Afrika. Akuwona umthetho oqhamuke kwenye indawo kodwa umthetho owakhiwe abantu baseNingizimu Afrika bezwana, bexoxisana futhi bemele abantu baseNingizimu Afrika. Eyokundinda neyokugcogcoma neyogimbela kwezabo yayingekho ngaleso sikhathi kuxoxwa ngalo mthetho. Baningi abantu asebekubona ukukhanya. Akekho othengwe yi-ANC ukuze ajoyine, okunalokho abaningi balahlekelwe yizikhundla ezinkulu abebenazo, imiholo emihle abebenayo, ezinye izinsiza ebebenazo ezinhlanganweni zabo, behliswa ezikhundleni lapho bejona i-ANC. Abanye kade bengososwebhu kodwa abaseyibo manje ngoba bebalekela umlilo okhona abawutholile emaqenjini abawahlubukile.

Imingcele yobuphofu sesizoyidudula. Isizwe siyahlangana. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Some leaders are spreading the rumour that the ANC is not following the voice of the majority. But when people have joined the parties of those leaders, they have found that those leaders were the ones who are autocratic. They discovered this after they had joined their parties. That is why they left those parties. In KwaZulu-Natal the ANC is where it was during the 1999 elections. It is prepared to work together with the IFP, as their agreement states. The Premier of KwaZulu-Natal has violated this agreement by firing ANC members from his cabinet. But the ANC is still where it was before the 1999 elections regarding this matter, even though the premier has fired these two ANC MECs.

Although this is a good opportunity to kick Mantshinga out, the ANC says: ``No, Mantshinga, rectify only what we have agreed upon’’. The ANC has compromised so that everybody can have a bright future, not only people in KwaZulu-Natal, but people in the whole of South Africa. The ANC says there should be co-operation between parties that represent people who were disempowered by apartheid. It says that those who experienced poverty should sit down and plan for a better future, a future that is full of development and harmony.

That is why we are giving water to those areas that do not have any. We install electricity for the poor so as to eradicate poverty and the burning down of houses. The ANC wants us to know that we are facing poverty. We need to help one another to build houses rather than burning each other’s houses down when there is a war. The ANC Government has increased the state pension to R700 a month to both black and white, urban and rural people. That will help many households in fighting poverty.

Returning to this legislation, we agreed on this legislation openly with all members who are here. It is part of the Constitution. It is one of the pieces of legislation that we play with and which we agreed upon. This is the legislation that we agreed to follow in South Africa. It is not the legislation that came from another planet; it is the legislation that was drafted by the South Africans in harmony. They discussed it as they represent the people of South Africa. The issue of being a political prostitute, a jumper and an autocrat never existed when this legislation was discussed.

There are many people who are now seeing the light. No one is bought by the ANC to join it, instead many lost big positions which they had been holding. They lost their fat salaries and other benefits that they had enjoyed in their organisations since they were demoted when they joined the ANC. Some were Chief Whips, but are no longer now because they ran away from the fire that they were experiencing in the parties that they came from. We are now going to push back the frontiers of poverty because the nation is uniting.]

Indeed, let us unite in action to push back the frontiers of poverty. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Mr S N SWART: Deputy Chairman, proponents of floor crossing did so on the basis of stabilising politics in South Africa.

The ACDP said it would disestablish politics in addition to striking at the principle of proportionality, which was our other objection. As far as accepting new members is concerned, we agonised over the decision in view of our adopted position. We decided not to actively approach any member, but felt convinced that we should not shut the door on those members who out of inner conviction belong in the ACDP and who approached us.

Having said this, in assessing the consequences of allowing public representatives to cross the floor, possibly one of the most serious aspects that we as the MPs will be faced with is the anger and disappointment felt by voters.

Many voters have indicated that floor crossing has effectively nullified their votes and they have intimated that they do not intend voting at the next elections, further contributing to the already high level of voter apathy. This is an issue that we will be faced with.

A further serious consequence relates to the standing of the National Council of Provinces. The ACDP, through no fault of its own or floor crossing of any its members, faces the prospect of losing its Western Cape NCOP seat. This followed the defection of a number of MPLs at the provincial level and the recalculation of percentages. As a consequence, members of the NCOP tenuously hold their seats from one window period to another, hoping that their seats will be retained following the reconstitution of the NCOP after the window period has closed. This erodes and devalues that Council and we must clearly revisit this constitutional amendment.

We also raised concerns regarding the financial implications arising from defections. Party employees have employment contracts with the party. When a member crosses the floor the party remains liable for the fulfilment of the employment contract unless a suitable clause was inserted in the contract relating to floor crossing. Who would want to work for a political party where your future is seemingly not only dependent upon members being re-elected … [Time expired.]

Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Chairperson, anyone who believes that this crossing of the floor fiasco was good for our democracy, will probably also believe that the Mafia make all their money by selling olive oil.

Genadiglik is die oorloopfiasko nou verby. Die VF het dit van die begin af heftig teengestaan. Daarom het die VF nie daaraan deelgeneem nie. Die onmiddellike gevolg is dat die ANC nou die sterkste party in die laaste twee nie-ANC provinsies is en ‘n tweederde meerderheid in die Parlement het. Nou kan die ANC alleen die verskanste eiendomsklousule skrap of Engels as enigste amptelike taal verklaar. Hoe het ons in hierdie gemors beland?

Die ANC het sedert 1994 sterk standpunt ingeneem teen enige oorloopklousule. Die Nuwe NP en die DA het met hulle egskeiding druk op die ANC geplaas om van standpunt te verander. Op 11 Junie verlede jaar het ek die Nuwe NP in die Parlement gewaarsku en ek haal aan:

Ek wil die Nuwe NP vandag baie vriendelik waarsku …

Hoor wat ek vir u sê.

Die ANC speel hierdie spel met julle omdat hulle die Wes-Kaap as ‘n ‘‘nonliberated area’’ beskou waarvan hulle alleen beheer wil kry, so ook van Kaapstad. Die ANC het net een doel en dit is om die Nuwe NP te vernietig … Hulle gaan dit ook regkry.

Presies dit het gebeur. Mnr. Van Schalkwyk is in die onmoontlike posisie om premier te wees van ‘n provinsie waar die ANC ‘n volstrekte meerderheid het. Hy kan nie roer sonder die ANC se goedkeuring nie.

Net die ANC het werklik gewen. Is dit wat die Nuwe NP en die DA wou gehad het met die die oorloopwette? Oorloopwette bevoordeel altyd ‘n regering, want net regerings deel poste uit. Gelukkig het die kiesers die laaste en finale sê en wel by die stembus in 2004. Die VF wil derhalwe ‘n beroep op die kiesers doen om partye soos die ANC, maar ook die DA en andere wat vir hierdie wetgewing gestem het, te straf en vir ander partye soos die VF te stem.

Hoekom het hulle dit gedoen? Net op nasionale vlak alleen het in hierdie Raad 62 lede hulle bestaande party in die steek gelaat en sonder ‘n mandaat oorgeloop na ander partye. Sodoende het hierdie lede deur hulle optrede 2 542 000 kiesers daar buite se stemme gesteel en nutteloos gemaak. Dit is ‘n absolute skande waardeur ‘n klug van ons demokrasie gemaak word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mercifully, the floor-crossing fiasco is now over. The FF vehemently opposed it from the beginning. For that reason the FF did not participate in it. The immediate consequence is that the ANC is now the strongest party in the last two non-ANC provinces and has a two-thirds majority in Parliament. Now the ANC can, on its own, abolish the entrenched property clause or declare English the only the official language. How did we end up in this mess?

Since 1994 the ANC has taken a strong position against any floor-crossing clause. With their divorce, the New NP and DA put pressure on the ANC to change their point of view. On 11 June last year I warned the New NP in Parliament, and I quote: I want to warn the New NP in a very friendly manner today …

Listen to what I’m telling you.

The ANC is playing this game with you because they regard the Western Cape as a nonliberated area of which they alone want to gain control, and also of Cape Town. The ANC has only one aim, and that is to destroy the New NP … They are also going to get this right.

That is precisely what happened. Mr Van Schalkwyk is in the impossible position of being the premier of a province in which the ANC has a clear majority. He cannot move without the ANC’s approval.

Only the ANC has truly won. Is that what the New NP and the DA wanted with the floor-crossing legislation? Floor-crossing legislation always advantages a government, because only governments assign positions. Fortunately, the voters have the last and final say at the polls in 2004. The FF would therefore like to appeal to the voters to punish parties like the ANC, but also the DA and others who voted for this legislation, and vote for other parties like the FF.

Why did they do this? At the national level alone, 62 members in this House deserted their existing party and crossed over to other parties without a mandate. In so doing these members, through their actions, stole the votes of 2 542 000 voters out there and rendered them invalid. This is an absolute disgrace through which a farce is being made of our democracy.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Deputy Chairperson, the UCDP supported the legislation in question and at the same time we said that the legislation is a big test for elected representatives who have a conscience towards those who placed them there. It is a litmus test for those who have the convictions of the policies and values of parties that brought them to the various legislatures.

Our position has been and still is that opportunism has no place in serving the nation. Spineless turncoats who are as changeable as the weather do not deserve the trust of the people. We are averse to people who hunt with the hounds and run with the hare. Politics dictates that one sticks to one’s guns for better or for worse.

Right now, even after being legitimised by the highest court in the country, the legislation is giving Parliament a headache. Parties have sprung up like mushrooms. There will be more constraints on speaking times because time has not grown while parties have.

This is a test for the majority party to show their commitment to multiparty democracy and preparedness to listen to the views of the other parties without the current benign gagging of parties by hiding behind proportionality without testing other variables such as equity. The latter refers to the fact that in a democracy all parties in Parliament are equal as parties and have to be accepted as parties that are on the same starter’s block of the athletic race.

The other poser to this crossing the floor is: On what basis do members who have crossed qualify for a constituency allowance? [Time expired.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Deputy Chairman, the PAC rejects political prostitution … [Laughter.] … which has been allowed in this Parliament.

This pseudo-democratic act has reached the treacherous stage of political Gomorrah and Sodom. [Laughter.] It is not democracy. It is a mixture of plutocracy, kakistocracy and kleptomania. This exercise is bound to engender a constitutional route of trouble. It will destabilise this country sooner rather than later.

The Constitution of the country has been turned into a farce. The sacredness of the Constitution of this country has been thrown into a dustbin. The rule of law and the doctrine of retrospectivity have been sacrificed on the altar of opportunism and betrayal of the voters and the people of this country.

People and parties that have no democratic right have been let into this National Assembly through a window of opportunism. They have been allowed not only to steal the votes of the citizens of this country, but to steal seats that are not theirs. That is a fact. [Interjections.]

We accept and uphold the independence of the judiciary, but can the bankrupt political phenomenon witnessed in this country be considered right just because the Constitutional Court pronounced it right? This would make nonsense of jurisprudence and human rights. [Interjections.] The system of proportionality should have been changed in 2004. You do not change the rules of the game in the middle … [Laughter.] [Time expired.]

Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mnr die Voorsitter, op die vraag of oorloopwetgewing die demokrasie versterk het, kan net die kiesers ‘n antwoord gee, maar die oorloopwetgewing het die persoonlikheid van politieke partye ontbloot.

In 1996 het die NP die Regering van Nasionale Eenheid verlaat met die doel om, soos mnr De Klerk gesê het, die opposisie in ‘n magtige bolwerk teen die ANC saam te snoer’’. Ek lees vir u uit een van hulle pamfletjies wat uitgegee is:

Die ontwikkeling van ‘n sterk en ‘n waaksame opposisie is noodsaaklik vir die handhawing en bevordering van ‘n ware veelparty-demokrasie.

En toe, in 1999 met die verkiesing, beloof hulle die kieser hulle gaan hul saamsnoer ná daardie verkiesing. En ná die verkiesing vind dit toe plaas. En kort daarna verlaat hulle die bolwerk om poste in die ANC-regering … [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mr Chairperson, as to the question whether floor- crossing legislation has strengthened democracy, only the voters can give a reply, but the floor-crossing legislation has revealed the personalities of political parties.

In 1996 the NP left the Government of National Unity for the purpose of, as Mr De Klerk said, ``die opposisie in ‘n magtige bolwerk teen die ANC saam te snoer’’ [uniting the opposition in a mighty stronghold against the ANC]. I would like to read you an extract from one of their pamphlets which has been published:

Die ontwikkeling van ‘n sterk en waaksame opposisie is noodsaaklik vir die handhawing en bevordering van ‘n ware veelparty-demokrasie.

And then, during the 1999 election, they promised the voters that they were going to unite after the election. And after the election it happened. And shortly afterwards they left the stronghold in search of positions in the ANC Government … [Interjections.]]

Mr J DURAND: Chairperson, on a point of order, I need a ruling from you. Don’t you feel the voters of South Africa deserve an explanation as to why …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member! That is not a point of order. Please proceed, hon Blanché.

Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Ons is dankbaar dat hulle toe daardie bolwerk verlaat het, net daardie groepie wat daar sit, want hulle het die demokrasie nie versterk nie.

Die Demokratiese Party het ook in die 1999-verkiesing na hulle kiesers toe gegaan en gesê ná die verkiesing sal ons ‘n sterker opposisie vorm en hier sit hulle: die leiers van die Demokratiese Alliansie … [Tussenwerpsels] … die mense met ruggraat. Die alternatiewe regering sit hier. Die kieser het reeds waargeneem op watter politici kan hy pyl trek en wie van hulle die demokrasie sal uitbou.

Die Federale Alliansie het in 1999 van daardie kiesers wat ‘n verenigde opposisie voorgestaan het ‘n mandaat gevra en hulle het vir ons daardie mandaat gegee en daarom staan ek hier. Ons is deel van die Demokratiese Alliansie en ons pleit by die verkleinde partye om aan te sluit.

Julle het ‘n plig in belang van … [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: We are grateful that they then left that stronghold, just that little group sitting there, because they had not strengthened democracy.

The Democratic Party also went to their voters during the 1999 election, and said that they would form a stronger opposition after the election, and now they are sitting here: the leaders of the Democratic Alliance … [Interjections] … the people with backbone. The alternative government is sitting here. The voters have already discovered on which politicians they can rely and who among them will build democracy.

In 1999 the Federal Alliance asked those voters who were in favour of a united opposition for a mandate and they gave us that mandate, and for that reason I am standing here. We are part of the Democratic Alliance and we are pleading with the diminished parties to join us.

You have a duty in the interests of … [Time expired.]]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Deputy Chairperson, the MF feels that since persons are in representation of a certain number of persons who belong to the citizenry, they should uphold their position as such.

Basically such a representative should know that he or she is not holding the seat out of his or her personal capacity, but has been placed in the position because persons supported him or her being there as a suitable candidate to put forth their needs and be a representative for them.

Noting that, the MF feels that if such representatives want to change party affiliation, they should resign their duties in totality, including their seats, before changing affiliation. Once again, if the party they now choose to join should select such person into an authoritative position, then it would be acceptable.

This is how a democracy should be handled. By all means, persons in such an authoritative position have a democratic right to choose, but they also have a duty to the persons who have placed them into such authority.

When we chop and change parties it makes our democracy seem insincere and like a game. The needs of those we represent then become secondary to our personal ambitions. We have taken an oath to which the MF stresses we adhere. The MF has no objection to the affiliation as long as it is done in a manner that does not offend or hinder the persons previously represented.

The MF supports freedom of association, freedom of movement and the democratic rights of the people, as long as we do not forget the voters that supported us during the election.

Ms J MOLOI: Madam Speaker and hon members, allow me to join hands with all those speakers who have echoed the voices saying that today this country marks the 10th year since the brutal murder of Comrade Chris Hani. A decade later we are gathered here to assess the impact of the legislation that allows public representatives to change their affiliation in the context of the consolidation and the strengthening of democracy.

We remain clear in our mind and conscience of the fact that this is well- meant legislation which is influenced by the natural progression and new realities unfolding. The consolidation of these new circumstances has been brought about by the political, economic, social and also cultural aspects. We are a country in transition, affected by changes occurring on a daily basis. We therefore have to accommodate the fact that change, in a manner that facilitates the transformation agenda of the ANC, is informed by the needs of the majority of our masses on the ground.

We have never developed policies that cater for self-interest, since our inception as an organisation in 1912, and even during the period of the struggle under the oppressive regime. We are continuing to drive this huge transformation agenda in a way that accommodates everyone.

The crossing of the floor is not a new practice. It happens in many countries and should never be seen as an attempt, by the ANC, to assume total political control. The reality is that, as a country in transition, we are engaged in a huge social experiment that, where necessary, requires flexibility and proactive leadership.

Imagine yourselves, as drivers of your car, given a map to reach a particular destination, having to drive through various kinds of weather conditions. Once you are deep into your journey, you hit an extremely dangerous road that has sharp curves, steep hills and all other factors that require cautious driving. Obviously, if you are brave enough, you will not consider turning back at that point in time, but you will seek to manoeuvre and exercise all the necessary safety measures as a driver.

As required by the rules of driving in our country, you keep left, pass right when there is a slow vehicle and stick to the left all the time, and drive at an acceptable speed. If you exercise your driving skills quite correctly, then you will be advancing towards your destination.

What comes as a surprise is that the opposition, the opposing parties which live on opposing the policies we initiate, become beneficiaries of the same policies they oppose. They always scorn the ANC and make a noise about how bad the ANC’s policy initiatives are. Not only that, they go to the extent of voting against those policies. When they benefit from the same policies they prefer to benefit quietly … [Applause.] … and will never mention the fact that, as much as they were opposed to the policy, they realised that it was a correct decision. And they do not have the decency to say: ``Thank you, ANC. Now we understand, we realise what you meant.’’

As a result of the influence of changes, policies of a number of existing political organisations that were relevant nine years ago may not be relevant now. For instance, Azapo was known as a black consciousness movement and was relevant in the 1970s. That is why most people aligned themselves with it. It was in order to build confidence amongst blacks who were subjected to inhuman laws at that time.

After being black, being proud, what next? You need to move forward and take up other challenges. A policy may not be relevant in the same way it was a decade ago. For instance, the PAC with its land concept needs to expand beyond seeing one factor and merge with all other developmental programmes. The realisation by the NP to change from the old to the New NP was in alignment with the realities that are unfolding. The commitment to work with the ANC further confirms the willingness of the New NP to be part of the building programme.

The DP’s fighting-back alliance, which was short-lived when the New NP withdrew, had no legal provision for MPs and the MPLs to become DA members of Parliament. I may cite an example. I may cite many more examples. However, in response to these abnormalities the crossing of the floor legislation had to be introduced.

As a matter of fact, the ANC remains stable in what it stands for, that being racial integration, the nonsexist agenda, the plight of the poor and the underdeveloped and, broadly, democratic transformation based on social security, economic prosperity and equal justice for all. That the ANC has a quest for total political control cannot be true. The ANC is in the majority now and was in the majority even under the oppressive regime. The ANC will remain in the majority in years to come. [Interjections.]

However, we will always work with the existing parties which are willing to take this country forward. In KwaZulu-Natal, for instance, the ANC is in the majority but opts to work with the IFP for the sake of peace and justice for the people in that province. In the Western Cape the ANC is in the majority but prefers to remain working with the New NP in order to improve the lives of South Africans. [Interjections.]

We are certain that the crossing of the floor legislation came at the correct time and has made a major political statement which is influenced by change. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Deputy Chairperson, thank you very much. I know that the events of the last week have bruised emotions and feelings and I do want to start out by saying: I think we must insist on the protection of the right of each one of us to hold his or her views. We must not treat each other with contempt purely because our views differ.

In the wake of the window period, I think that collectively, as this House and as South Africa’s electorate, we ought to be proud of what has happened. All of us deserve it. We are a young democracy. There is no blueprint to follow. Right from the process when we negotiated our settlement we have had, as a nation, the task of finding our way steadily into the future. Nations of the world admire what we have done. Here too we have opened a chapter. We have taken a step that few countries which have attained democracy have taken before. We are guided by the experience of our people and our nation. So I think that we must applaud ourselves, from time to time, for this achievement. [Applause.]

This debate, as I understood it, was about floor crossing. It was about whether what we have done is right or not. This is an issue which has been raised on the floor of this House for some time and we have not really confronted it. An assertion has been made in this House over and over again that this democracy cannot succeed unless there is a strong opposition. [Applause.] The question we have never asked ourselves and which I have never heard asked and answered is: What do we mean by ``opposition’’? [Interjections.] What is meant by it? I looked at the history of the ANC. I found that throughout the course of its history, since 1912, the ANC has evolved policy. I could not immediately find any body that has since then been opposed to the development of the policy that is now, in my view, guiding this country.

I noticed the processes, internal to the ANC as a Parliament of the people of South Africa, that afforded us an opportunity to scrutinise policy. Decade after decade, our movement produced concrete and solid and reliable policy. We are not in this Parliament with some opposition. When we came to the conclusion that the future of our country lies in the fact that black and white South Africans must be accepted as permanent citizens on the basis of equality, living in this country, we were not here. [Applause.]

So the question must be asked - and we must ask ourselves - what do we mean by opposition''? When I take that history, it seems to say to me that if byopposition’’ we mean effective scrutiny of policy, then I would agree with that if that is one of the elements of ``opposition’’, because that is what we are capable of doing. The ANC as a movement was able to do that over all of these decades, and all of those who scrutinised and often opposed proposals on policy were right inside the ANC itself and loyal to the movement. That is the one issue.

The second element is what we mean by ``strong’’. What is meant by that? Does it mean strength in numbers? If you put together large numbers of fools and empty-headed people, you will not produce reliable and viable alternatives. That is not what is going to happen and therefore we have now to think whether it is a question of numbers alone, or the quality of the viable alternatives offered. At the present time, I cannot think, with the policy positions that are being put forward by this Government, that there is a viable alternative.

I make it a point and I say this with all humility, that we must make it a point to listen to each other’s point of view, however much we may differ. We must try to listen and find out whether there are indeed issues which we need to take account of, which we are ignoring. I say that both to members of my party and to members of the opposition. If those are to be found somewhere, we must apply our mind whether it is correct for us to ignore them, simply because they come from the opposition; or from people we do not like. We must judge them on the basis of their merits and when it is like that, I think that if therefore by ``strong’’ is meant viable alternatives, then I think I would agree with that.

In order to offer viable alternatives, you do not need to be outside of the ANC. You can do that right inside the ranks of the party. [Laughter.] [Applause.] It has been done for decades.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, are you rising on a point of order? Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister if he is prepared to answer a question.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Could I complete the next point and then I will entertain the question? I will also buy you a whiskey that we could proceed to, once we have finished here. [Laughter.]

The next element in this issue is: Who takes part in that scrutiny process of policy? Who takes part in it? In the operation of our movement over the decades, we started policy from the base, from a branch in the countryside, a branch in the compound, mine compound, hostel and so on. Men and women there were asked to say what they thought the future South Africa should look like. It was those masses of the people in the countryside and in the locations and the shebeens who said what they thought and that, by a process, gravitated and ultimately produced the Freedom Charter. That guaranteed us that if those were the views of our people, they would vote for them, which is why when we went to the 1994 elections, the first thing we did was to go to our people and say to them: What are the issues you think we must prioritise if we were to win the election? In the people’s forums our people said peace, jobs, this and that. That was on the placards we put out and the commitments we made to them; housing and things like that. It was bound to happen. Experience has taught us that when that is the position, nobody could stop us. In the struggle for freedom, we had always pursued that and even though the previous regime had the most powerful weaponry on the continent of Africa, we were able to bring them to their knees, precisely because the masses of the people are an unstoppable force; here too. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Are you willing to take the question now, hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: May I take your question?

Dr C P MULDER: Thank you, Mr Minister. The speech you have just made has very, very serious implications for democracy in South Africa - and that is my view. The point that you made, Sir, is that there is no room for opposition and that all views should be expressed within the ANC. [Interjections.] The question is: In the light of what the Minister has just said in this speech, how does he interpret Section 1(d) of the Constitution’s founding provisions that this country should be a multiparty democracy?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I have not said that people who want to be outside of the ANC must not stay outside. As a matter of fact, in the history of the ANC there have been those who were in our ranks who sometimes, when they did not agree, walked out of the ANC. We never fought them. The members of the PAC, for instance, were all members of the ANC. When they did not agree with the majority, they walked out. We will defend and protect their right to stay out of the ANC and I insist that we must protect you to stay outside the ANC. [Applause.] I did not say that. The point I am making is simply that ``opposition’’ does not mean standing there and distancing yourself from the majority. I am saying it must be understood to mean effective scrutiny of policy and the capacity and ability to contribute to policy. If at any time the ANC denied people the opportunity to make contributions to policy, they were free to walk out of the ANC. That is why this floor-crossing legislation is also applicable. If there is anybody within the ranks of the ANC that wants to cross over, we would be the first to protect their right to do so.

Mr M J ELLIS: On a point of order, Chairperson. The Minister’s time expired a long time ago. [Laughter.]

Debate concluded.

                        BANKS AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Chair, hon members, in 1999 the IMF and World Bank identified South Africa as one of a few countries to form part of the pilot financial sector assessment programme.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, those who are leaving, please do so quietly and quickly in order that we may proceed.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. One of the main objectives of the financial sector assessment programme was to evaluate the countries’ level of compliance with international standards. Those standards refer to the Basel core principles for effecting banking supervision set by the Basel Core Committee on Bank Supervision with the aim of facilitating an international accord for prudential and risk- sensitive banking supervision.

The 2000 financial sector assessment programme evaluation of the South African financial system described it as robust, highly developed, sophisticated and well regulated with a strong banking system, a well- developed securities market, a strong presence of institutional investors and low corporate leverage. The assessment evaluation report further stated that South Africa is compliant with 22 of the 25 core principles for effective banking supervision. Since that assessment, further work has been done to effect full compliance. Most importantly, we established the Financial Intelligence Centre in terms of the Financial Intelligence Centre Act to combat money- laundering. With the financial centre becoming operational this year, we believe that South Africa is now compliant with 23 of the 25 core principles for effective banking supervision.

The current Bill has been drafted over the past three years and has been through a very wide and thorough consultative process. It initially came about from the directive of the select committee of the National Council of Provinces to correct the gender-insensitive provisions of the Banks Act of

1. This was to be done to reflect the constitutional imperatives in that regard. Flowing from the financial sector assessment programme of South Africa and domestic circumstances, there was a regulatory need to strengthen the supervisory powers of the banking supervisor. Accordingly, some of the amendments introduced through this Bill flow from the report pertaining to the affairs of the Regal Treasury Private Bank Limited that was delivered by Adv Myburgh.

Whilst the Bill is largely intended to correct gender-insensitive provisions of the Banks Act, it also seeks to give legal clarification for fiduciary duties and responsibilities of directors, chief executive officers and managers of banks. In other instances, this Bill seeks to create legal clarification in those provisions of the principal Act that require further clarification.

Modern chief executive officers, and managers of companies in general and of banks in particular, command wide powers. It is therefore important to ensure that only fit and proper persons, directors and chief executive officers and others comprise the management of our banks. To give effect to this principle, the Bill, in an extensive clause 40, affords the registrar new supervisory powers to approve or reject the appointment of new executive and nonexecutive officers of a bank. The Bill also gives the registrar clear powers to terminate the appointment of current officers if he or she has reason to believe that such an officer is no longer fit and proper or that it is not in the public interest for such officer to remain in office. Further, the Bill lays down detailed procedures on how to exercise these powers.

To give further teeth to the registrar in order to act on behalf of and in the interest of depositors, clause 40(b) provides that the registrar may institute an action against officers who knowingly carry on a reckless banking business. Any amount recovered by this legal action from those officers would be applied to defray expenses incurred by the registrar, offset the amounts paid to depositors by the registrar or any deposit insurance scheme and, thereafter, for the pro rata payment of losses to depositors.

It is also important to extend corporate governance measures developed by common law in respect of directors, chief executive officers and executive officers of banks. Clause 40 of this Bill codifies the generally accepted common law principles of fiduciary duty, and duty of care and skill owed to the company. This is different from the existing Banks Act which only refers to a fiduciary relationship. So this clause clearly defines the parameters of such a duty. The other key elements that this Bill introduces are a requirement for a greater degree of care and skill from the directors and executive managers of a bank than is normally required in respect of duties of directors of other companies.

Certain regulations pertaining to corporate governance have already been incorporated in the regulations relating to banks. Clause 1(b) inserts the important new definition of corporate governance in relation to the management of a bank, or a bank controlling company. This is a legislative first for South Africa. Clause 42 of the Bill introduces a system of compulsory rotation of auditors under such conditions as may be prescribed by regulation. This far-reaching amendment is meant to ensure the independence of a bank’s auditors at all times. Practicalities of this system will be prescribed by regulation. Further, the principal Act provides that the registrar may prescribe that a bank with total assets exceeding R10 billion appoints no fewer than two auditors. This requirement has proved to be somewhat rigid and the Bill proposes to prescribe the amount by regulation.

All these measures that I have mentioned are just a synopsis of this Bill. It is important to state that this Bill is a significant improvement on existing legislation. We are pleased that this Bill will strengthen South Africa’s banking industry, extend the prudential regulatory framework pertaining to banks and sharpen the oversight powers of our banking supervisory authority. We have no doubt that in doing so it will further strengthen South Africa’s ability to comply with international standards. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms R TALJAARD: Chairperson, colleagues, the most important amendments to the Banks Act before us revolve around the powers of the Registrar of Banks in order to ensure sound corporate governance and increase the powers of the registrar in this regard. These amendments are largely the Regal Treasury Private Bank Limited amendments by any other name.

Given that no formal investigation has been launched by either the regulator or the National Treasury to probe the specific circumstances that led to the collapse of Saambou Bank, a Regal-type commission of inquiry, in retrospect, would have been advisable and might still have to be considered. Regrettably, the SA Reserve Bank have decided to use exemptions 42 and 44 of the Promotion of Access to Information Act to refuse access to section 6 of the KPMG report. As the access Act overrides both the Banks Act and the South African Reserve Bank Act, the DA is seeking advice as to whether to proceed with litigation to obtain a copy of that report.

This Bill before the House should not only have been the Regal Treasury Private Bank Limited Bill; we should have seized the moment. It should also have been the Saambou Bank Bill with sufficient amendments to ensure that there would be no more Saambou-style collapses or implosions. Arguably, these amendments go a very long way in addressing corporate governance. But, as legislators, we do not know whether they go far enough because we do not know what happened.

The questions around Saambou Bank’s collapse are many and remain unanswered. The former depositors, taxpayers and all banked South Africans have a right to know what happened to Saambou and have a right to be reassured that the regulatory system has all the checks and balances required to ensure a well-regulated sector. In addition, due to the R4 billion contingent liability, we all have a right to know whether Saambou’s assets were disposed of in a sound manner which maximised revenue and minimised liabilities.

The Bill before the House provides for the establishment of a compliance function within banks. It requires banks to establish and maintain adequate processes of sound corporate governance. The key feature of the Bill is the new regulatory powers that it gives to the registrar in respect of the directors of banks. The Bill contains provisions regarding the fiduciary duty and duty of care and skill which rest on directors. It extends such duties to chief executive officers, executive officers of banks and bank controlling companies.

The registrar has new powers to institute an action for breach of the fiduciary duties to the registrar that will be civil in nature and could fulfil a powerful function in protecting the interests of depositors. There is no doubt that this Bill will cause a shake-up in corporate governance in the banking sector. In the context of some of the factors that clearly contributed to the collapse of Saambou Bank, these amendments are welcome and overdue.

The DA supports this Bill. Had its provisions been in place, arguably, Saambou may still have been with us. But we will not relent in probing all the circumstances that led to the collapse of Saambou. We need answers on the dubious incentive schemes and secondary capital structures of Saambou Holdings Limited and Saambou Bank Limited and whether similar schemes are present in any of our other banks. The Governor of the SA Reserve Bank has stated that the bank should be exempted from the provisions of the Promotion of Access to Information Act. Such a blanket exemption cannot be countenanced. Only Cabinet, controversially, enjoys it. The bank is not only a responsible regulator - it is also an accountable institution.

In sharp contrast to the governor, the Minister of Finance does not appear to have principled objections to a release of the Saambou reports. He merely expressed reservations that a release may impact negatively on criminal investigations, in a recent parliamentary reply to a question from myself. The SA Reserve Bank stated that releasing the report would jeopardise the economic interests of the Republic. The Minister of Finance does not appear to share that sentiment. They cannot both be right. It is time for everyone involved to come clean on what happened with Saambou - the National Treasury, the SA Reserve Bank, the FSB and the National Directorate of Public Prosecutions. If investigations are ongoing, they have to be expedited in order for the public to know what happened to that bank. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr K A MOLOTO: Chairperson, the relationship between banks and depositors or clients is based on mutual trust. People who put money in banks always believe that their money will always be safe. I agree, that assumption is correct. This mutual trust between banks and their clients or depositors makes banks viable institutions and this is their source of credibility.

Any economic activity in any country relies on banks for funding. It is the bedrock of our economy. We need to protect the integrity of banks and the interests of consumers. We cannot afford the erosion of the confidence of our people in our banking industry. This can only be achieved by holding management of banks accountable and by prescribing, through legislation, good corporate governance measures.

The recent bank failures and the report pertaining to the affairs of Regal Treasury Private Bank Limited indicated the need to give the Registrar of Banks additional regulatory powers. Some of the problems around small banks could have been averted, especially the Regal Treasury Private Bank Limited, if the registrar had the powers contained in this Bill.

This Bill gives the registrar the powers to prevent the appointment of any person intending to be a director or a manager of a bank, if they are deemed not to be fit and proper. The Basel Committee on Banking Supervision, a banking supervisory authority originally established by the Central Governors of Group of Ten countries, indicates that a person who has judicial judgments or investigations cannot be regarded as fit and proper.

The registrar is also empowered by the Bill to remove or replace existing managers or directors of a bank if the registrar is of the opinion or has reason to believe that they are no longer fit and proper or it is no longer in the public interest to let them continue to hold their positions. Let me emphasise the points I made earlier. Depositors or clients of banks are the largest source of funding of a bank. They have to be protected. The registrar may take legal action against bank officers who knowingly conduct bank business recklessly, to the disadvantage of depositors. The registrar is also empowered to approve the appointment of auditors of banks and those of bank controlling companies. This Bill stipulates the compulsory rotation of auditors of banks to ensure the independence of auditors. This is born out of certain experiences.

The Enron debacle, that became a symbol of business corruption and greed, alerted the whole world to the need for enforcing the independence of auditors. An American publication, Business Week, of 6 May 2002 had this to say after the Enron debacle, and I quote:

Auditors should rotate every few years to ensure a fresh look by a new firm. Instead of just asserting that the financials meet generally accepted accounting principles, the auditor’s statement should illuminate just where in the wide range of acceptable practices a particular company falls. As an up-close reviewer of the numbers, the auditor is in a unique position to judge how dependent the financial statements are on assumptions that are faulty.

I can continue to cite many examples from the United States of America to emphasise the seriousness of this matter and the need for credible and independent auditors.

According to the same American publication on 1 April 2002, Xerox, an IT company, agreed to pay US$10 million to settle charges that it engaged in fraudulent accounting practices. In May 2001, Arthur Andersen, an auditing firm, agreed to pay US$110 million to settle a shareholders’ claim alleging fraud in its audit of Sunbeam. On 11 January 2000, Al Dunlap agreed to pay US$15 million to settle a lawsuit from Sunbeam shareholders and bondholders, alleging that he cooked the books of Sunbeam.

Although we have not witnessed serious auditing scandals in South Africa on the scale experienced in the USA, we cannot rest on our laurels. We are a small economy that cannot accommodate anything that erodes confidence. The critical matter that needs to be considered by this House at some stage, which has been raised by the hon Ms Taljaard, is the issue of access to confidential and sensitive information held by the Registrar of Banks. This is not an easy matter, hon members. We need to engage in this debate on access to information, considering international experience and the need to protect the integrity of our banks. We need balance. We come from a history of repression, denial of information and unjust administrative action.

The Basel Committee on Banking Supervision had this to say on this matter. Let me quote:

Banks should be required to disclose to the public information regarding their activities and financial position that is comprehensive and not misleading. This information should be timely and sufficient for market participants to assess the risk inherent in any individual banking organisation. Although market participants should have access to correct and timely information, there are certain types of sensitive information that should be held confidential by banking supervisors. In order for a relationship of mutual trust to develop, banks need to know that such sensitive information will be held by the supervisory agency.

Let me continue to indicate the investigation of the Basel Committee, after realising that this is a very difficult matter. Let me quote again:

The committee recognises that it is important to determine the right level of detail for disclosure in the light of the proprietary nature of information held by banks. Proprietary information encompasses information, that is for example information on customers, products or systems, the sharing of which with competitors would render a bank’s investment in these products or systems less valuable, and hence would undermine its competitive position.

But the same committee continues to urge for a disclosure around a number of areas, for example, the capital adequacy. A bank should disclose work possible and appropriate capital structure and accounting principles that accompany it, and also a number of risks that the bank intends to take. They should disclose that to their clients. Thank you. [Applause.]

Dr G G WOODS: Deputy Chairperson, the passage of this Bill has been a fairly smooth one. There was a general agreement in the Portfolio Committee of Finance. We did attract a few stakeholders, we tried to have hearings. There was not too much interest from the industry. We note that the industry in general and other interest groups have been well consulted by the department in putting together this legislation. Given that other speakers have covered the more topical or the more substantive issues, I am going to try and give something of a broad sweep across the more central themes of the Bill. Hopefully I’ll not repeat too much of what has already been said.

The Deputy Minister is correct in that we have to see this Bill and its amendments against recent international experiences and against internal experiences. Regal Bank has been mentioned. I think a number of other observations were made by the registrar as to weaknesses in the current Act. We acknowledge that banks are very special institutions in our society, and more perhaps than any other institutions, they are entrusted with the material interests of millions of people and in many cases the last savings of the lowest-income earners.

The responsibility is therefore to protect the interests of these millions of people by regulating these institutions through law, and by constantly revisiting, revising, reviewing the appropriateness and the sufficiency of this law. Of course this Bill in front of us is just such a revision. It covers a broad number of areas. I will just read across a few of these that attracted our attention and which we are very supportive of. It gives greater clarity and coherence to the existing legal and regulatory environment, and it limits the improper use of persons who carry on businesses as banks, where a number of loopholes have been exposed.

Changes here have taken place to the legal provisions and the registrar’s scope to intervene where these anomalies occur. It obligates banks to establish a compliance function, as has been mentioned, and to enhance risk management in each bank, and to limit risk by extending that 40% rule which concerns certain specified investments of a controlling company’s share of capital in the reserve funds. Now this is to apply the 40% limitation to a consolidation of all banks and the holding companies within that particular group.

We note that the Minister is going to issue regulations to introduce more stringent levels of corporate governance, appropriate to the changing banking environment, and these I think are pretty well covered by both the hon Taljaard and the hon Moloto. There is the elevation of chief executive officers and executive officers into the fiduciary duty arrangements, and the provision of an objective test for what is defined as the duty of care and skill, as will be required by the actions of these directors and senior managers.

It also clarifies the relationships between directors and the senior management. Other issues are the risk management committees which are now introduced, directors’ affairs committees, rotation of auditors, increased penalties, and the limitations to paying out of dividends of the share capital. All these are very welcome and they strengthen the corporate governance and the risk management arrangements. There is also the accommodation of a new body of related best practices which have come about through international experience.

All this will go towards adding to the protection of those depositors, as I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, as well as, not only the depositors, but other categories of the banking industry’s clients as well. The IFP is very happy to support this. Thank you.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. The Minority Front is pleased with the efforts to bring banking in line with our Constitution. Further, it is encouraging to note various role-players doing so, as it depicts an earnestness to uphold and install our democracy in all sectors. The amendments in this Bill appear to bring clarity in banking activities. Such clarity and definition allow for greater control over banking activities.

Clause 3 appears to hold much control and allows for the greater assurance of delivery of activities in a standardised and efficient manner. The Bill amends, deletes and provides for a number of factors crucial to the banking sector, upholding a democracy in which we are protective of the interests of our citizenry. We have to ensure that the interests of such persons be maintained and carried through effectively and efficiently.

The Minority Front supports the Banks Amendment Bill. Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. I would like to thank members for participating in the debate, but also for the general support that has been given to the Bill. This is certainly reflective in our understanding of what also happened in the committee. There are important issues which I think have been raised in this particular context of the Bill that we are dealing with.

The one view is that perhaps this Bill should have also taken into account some of the things that happened around Saambou. The collapse of Saambou should have been taken into account in drafting this particular legislation. As members would understand, the matter of Saambou is a matter that is still very fresh in South African banking experience, particularly the experience of collapses that have taken place. We are still grappling with matters that relate to the demise of Saambou. But I do not believe that we needed to wait and not act on those matters, where we could already identify gaps currently, until the work around Saambou has been completed. Issues have been raised about the South African Reserve Bank, and the request that has been made to it, to make available certain information to the public. I think it is fair to make the request, but we must also understand that the Reserve Bank itself has to exercise great responsibility in dealing with issues of information that are given to it in the course of carrying out its regulatory functions.

There are matters of confidence there, there are matters of ensuring that, in the way you deal with that information, you don’t end up undermining the effectiveness of your regulatory framework. That responsibility, with which the Reserve Bank has to deal with those kinds of requests, flows from the extensive powers that the Reserve Bank has. It has extensive powers to access information, from very, very sensitive institutions such as banks.

We therefore need to understand that the manner in which you deal with that information that is at your disposal must not lead to unintended consequences. I think instead of just castigating the Reserve Bank we must also understand where the Reserve Bank is coming from. The greater focus, from our point of view, is on ensuring that when we do identify gaps, corrective action is taken, and that is what we do on an ongoing basis.

There are matters of competition which are of concern to institutions when they make information available to a regulator such as the Reserve Bank. There will be concerns that such information does not end up landing in the hands of their competitors. Perhaps another point to make is, and I think it was the final point Miss Taljaard also made, that the investigations that may be taking place must be expedited, thank you very much, so that the public can know what happened.

Of course, investigations do not always happen at our own pace. Certainly it would be in our interest as well that investigations are expedited. We are concerned about continuous insinuations around our actions at some point. There have been suggestions that we did not act correctly. There have been suggestions that we did not apply our minds properly. We believe that we applied our minds and we believe we acted correctly.

We are therefore grappling with that unease around our actions. The fact that the Government and the Minister of Finance may differ on whether this information should be released or otherwise, I think is healthy because the specific responsibilities that the two have are not exactly the same. So it should be understood if they may differ on particular points. Really, the general point I would like to make is that we have to exercise great responsibility in dealing with the information that is put at our disposal, in order to enable us to carry out our regulatory responsibilities.

I would like to thank members for the general support they have given to the Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.] Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 18:36. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills:

 (i)    Local Government: Municipal Structures Second Amendment Bill [B
      68B - 2002] - Act No 1 of 2003 (assented to and signed by
      President on 4 April 2003).


         NOTE: The name of the Act is the Local Government: Municipal
         Structures Amendment Act, 2003.
 (ii)   Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Third Amendment
       Bill [B 33B - 2002] - Act No 3 of 2003 (assented to and signed
       by President on 9 April 2003).


         NOTE: The name of the Act is the Constitution of the Republic
         of South Africa Second Amendment Act, 2003.


 (iii)  National Development Agency Amendment Bill [B 70B - 2002] - Act
         No 6 of 2003 (assented to and signed by President on 9 April
         2003).Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for
         assent:


         (1)  Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on  10  April
             2003:


             (i)   Deeds  Registries  Amendment  Bill  [B  65B  -  2002]
                   (National Assembly - sec 75).

         2.   Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:
 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 10 April 2003 in  terms  of
     Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill as  a  section  76
     Bill:


     (i)     Financial and Fiscal Commission  Amendment  Bill  [B  21  -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec 76).

National Assembly:

1. Membership of Portfolio, Joint, Standing and House Committees:

 (1)    The following changes  have  been  made  to  the  membership  of
     Committees, viz:


     Ethics and Members' Interests:


     Appointed: Madikiza, G T (Alt); Van Wyk, A.
     Discharged: Frolick, C T.


     Foreign Affairs:


     Appointed: Bapela, O (Alt).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Home Affairs:

 Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and
 the Government of the Republic of Angola on Waiving of the Requirement
 of Visas on Diplomatic and Official Passports, in terms of section
 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.