THURSDAY, 29 MAY 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                    SUDDEN DEATH OF MR R J HEINE

                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, it is with sadness that I inform members that our colleague from the DA, Mr R J Heine, has passed away suddenly. The House will pay tribute to Mr Heine on Tuesday.

                    CRIME AND VIOLENCE IN SCHOOLS

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr L J MODISENYANE (ANC): Madam Speaker, according to media reports, a spate of criminal and violent incidents has hit schools. It is further reported that in the majority of these cases the perpetrators were invariably learners who were causing fellow learners either to become traumatised or afraid to attend school.

The ANC believes that national Government, together with the provincial education departments, have created an adequate legislative framework and implemented policy measures to ensure that all schools are safeguarded against incidents of this nature. The learners of these schools have an inalienable right to the same protective measures as their counterparts in better resourced public schools.

The ANC empathises with these traumatised learners and therefore encourages them to engage, through their learner representative councils, with the school governing bodies to ensure that their schools are indeed safe and secure places of learning. We further wish to assure all learners in our country, especially during National Child Protection Week, that as Government we shall continue to push back the frontiers that stifle their development and potential. We call on all school governing bodies to mobilise, and highlight the problem of violence in schools. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Before taking the next member’s statement, I think it’s appropriate that we welcome and acknowledge in our midst some of the youngest visitors we’ve had to the public gallery. [Applause.] All of you are most welcome. We’re very glad you’re with us, and please keep coming and keep in touch with us, and you come and tell us what’s wrong out there! Thank you very much. [Applause.]

MINIMUM WAGES IN AGRICULTURAL SECTOR - IMPACT ON EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES

                        (Member's Statement)

Mnr C R REDCLIFFE (DA): Mevrou die Speaker, die Premier van Limpopo, premier Ramatlodi, sê in vandag se Business Day dat die voorgestelde toepassing van minimum lone in die landbousektor werkgeleenthede sal vernietig.

Uiteindelik klink daar ‘n stem van helderheid op uit die moeras van slegte nuus. Hierdie waarskuwing komende van ‘n senior ANC-premier is in skrille kontras met die Minister van Arbeid se optrede. Premier Ramatlodi verteenwoordig ‘n uitgebreide landelike gebied wat afhanklik is van werkgeleenthede in die landbousektor. Hy is duidelik in voeling met wat op die grond gebeur. In die bykans 10 jaar sedert die ANC aan die bewind gekom het, is 1 miljoen werkgeleenthede verloor. Nagenoeg 42% van alle Suid- Afrikaners sit sonder werk.

Ek daag die agb Minister van Arbeid uit om te erken dat sy planne, ondanks die goeie bedoelings, eerder skade aanrig as goed doen. Die Minister kan nie die kommentaar van premier Ramatlodi ignoreer nie. As Minister van Arbeid is dit sy taak om werkgeleenthede te beskerm, nie om hulle te vernietig nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr C R REDCLIFFE (DA): Madam Speaker, the Premier of Limpopo, Premier Ramatlodi, said in today’s Business Day that the proposed application of minimum wages in the agricultural sector would destroy job opportunities.

At last we hear the sound of a clear voice out of the morass of bad news. This warning, coming from a senior ANC Premier, is in glaring contrast to the Minister of Labour’s action. Premier Ramatlodi represents an extensive rural area which is dependent on job opportunities in the agricultural sector. He is obviously in touch with what is happening at grassroots level. In the almost 10 years since the ANC came into power, 1 million job opportunities have been lost. About 42% of all South Africans are unemployed.

I dare the Minister of Labour to admit that in spite of his good intentions, his plans have done harm rather than good. The Minister cannot ignore the comments of Premier Ramatlodi. As Minister of Labour it is his task to protect job opportunities, not to destroy them. Thank you.]

           SAPS CRIME AWARENESS CAMPAIGN IN KWAZULU-NATAL

                        (Member's Statement)

Chief M W HLENGWA (IFP): Madam Speaker, on Sunday, the 25th of May 2003 the SAPS held a crime awareness campaign roadshow, campaigning on HIV/Aids awareness and drug abuse. This campaign was held within their area of operation in the Thoyana rural area around Amanzimtoti, KwaZulu-Natal.

Members of the SAPS, community leaders, educators, schoolchildren, as well as specially invited guest speakers all made contributions on the day and helped ensure that it was a success. HIV/Aids, crime and drug abuse are just three of the many issues that we, and in particular the youth of South Africa, are faced with almost every day of our lives.

Campaigns like these do help in educating people and creating awareness around serious issues such as HIV/Aids, crime and drug abuse. It was both pleasing and encouraging that the campaign was well attended. This shows that people are concerned about the serious issues that were being discussed. I would like to thank the SAPS in Amanzimtoti for the effort and hard work put into the co-ordination of the roadshow, and I hope that there will be more in future. I thank you.

    TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE GUIDELINES ON HIV/AIDS IN THE WORKPLACE

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr P A C HENDRICKSE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Labour, the hon Membathisi Mdladlana, launched the technical assistance guidelines, TAGs, on HIV/Aids on the 26th of May 2003. This is part of Government’s programme in meeting the global and national challenge of Aids in society.

Like other ANC Government programmes, the technical assistance guidelines are premised on the fact that HIV causes Aids and that socioeconomic factors such as poverty play a crucial role in the spread and impact of the disease. These guidelines stipulate that employees have a legal right not to be dismissed for being HIV-positive. Employers must deal with HIV- related grievances in an efficient and effective manner in order to manage the pandemic in the workplace effectively.

The launch of these guidelines reflect the Government’s commitment to protect workers who have been infected with HIV/Aids. These guidelines are part of the broader Government programmes which have a proactive and integrated approach to prevention and management of the disease.

The ANC welcomes these guidelines as a major contribution to protecting the rights of workers living with HIV/Aids. We further believe that the implementation of these guidelines will assist in managing the disease in the workplace. [Applause.]

               SEXUAL OFFENCES AND VIOLENCE IN SCHOOLS

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr D M BAKKER (New NP): Madam Speaker, this week is Child Protection Week, which once again places the emphasis on the plight of so many of South Africa’s children. In this regard we are shocked and angered to read about a teacher arrested and charged with sexually abusing 10 schoolgirls.

The New NP is concerned about the high incidence of sexual abuse, indecent assault and assault in our schools, because schools in particular are supposed to be a safe environment for children, and educators are supposed to be people children can trust and look up to. The Minister of Education’s reply to a New NP question regarding sexual abuse, indecent assault and assault in our schools is a serious charge against us, the lawmakers of this country. According to the Minister’s reply, educators in all provinces, except for the Eastern Cape which did not respond to the question, had been guilty of either rape, indecent assault or assault over the past two years. During 2001 and 2002 there were approximately 204 reported cases of rape, sexual molestation or indecent assault by educators. There were also more than 200 reported cases of assault by educators on learners.

The New NP believes that if we can’t stop our children from falling victim to these evils, we have failed them. Educators found guilty of such offences must be severely punished and not be allowed ever again to set foot on any schoolground, and these cases should be properly investigated. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

            CURATORSHIP FOR MPUMALANGA HEALTH DEPARTMENT

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr I M CACHALIA (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC notes that the Mpumalanga Health Department has been placed under curatorship.

A task team has been set up to investigate and assist the MEC for Health, Ms Manana, to ensure and improve accountability and service delivery.

The ANC welcomes the move by the Mpumalanga provincial government to place this department under curatorship. This move reflects the commitment of the ANC to obtain proficient and accountable government. It is a further demonstration of the commitment of the ANC Government to improving service delivery and achieving a better life for all our people.

The ANC hopes that the task team will finalise its report without further delay so that political representatives can interact with the issues contained in the report. I thank you.

                     RELEASE OF CRIME STATISTICS

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms N C NKABINDE (UDM): The UDM expresses its horror at the news of the incident of necklacing that took place in Bramfisherville. The incident must be condemned as an act of cruelty that has no place in a constitutional democracy. However, there can be no doubt that this incident, like many other vigilante actions that are increasingly coming to light, is symptomatic of the high crime rate in this country. This does not mean that people have a right or excuse to take the law into their own hands. What it does mean is that Government is failing to deal with crime.

South Africans who are largely peace-loving and nonviolent are no longer willing to sit around idly whilst their possessions are stolen, and their loved ones are raped and murdered. In the face of this growing crisis, the Government continues to stick to its aggressive and stubborn refusal to release regular crime statistics. South Africans have the right to know which areas, which activities and what times are most likely to expose them to crime. Sadly, they are being deprived of this life-saving information.

It seems the Government has one eye on next year’s election, and fears the exposure of the unfulfilled promises of a safer country. I thank you.

                 PAYMENTS FROM DISASTER RELIEF FUND

                        (Member's statement)

Dr P W A MULDER (VF): Mevrou die Speaker, in die Suid-Kaap het die ergste oorstroming in menseheugenis onlangs plaasgevind. Talle boere het alles wat hulle oor dekades opgebou het, in enkele minute verloor.

Die VF is dankbaar vir die vloedrampfonds wat ingestel is om die betrokkenes by te staan in hierdie krisis. Mense wat skade gely het, het dan ook reeds hulle skade aangemeld en by die vloedrampfonds geregistreer. By navraag blyk dit nou dat dit van 12 maande tot 3 jaar kan duur voor die rampfonds enige bedrae geld sal kan uitbetaal. Die doel met ‘n rampfonds is om persone by te staan wat deur getref is ‘n ramp wat buite hulle beheer was, en as gevolg waarvan hulle hul nou in ‘n finansiële krisis bevind. Dit is om te voorkom dat hulle uiteindelik alles as gevolg van die ramp verloor. Op hierdie tydstip is van die banke besig om van hierdie boere uit te koop, omdat hulle vanweë die ramp tans kontantvloeiprobleme ondervind.

Wat tans gebeur, is uiters onregverdig teenoor hierdie boere. Teen die tyd dat die rampfonds oor 12 maande uitbetaal, is dit te laat om enige verskil aan hulle finansiële posisie te maak. Die vraag is: Is daar geen manier waarop die administrasie en uitbetaling van hierdie fonds bespoedig kan word ten einde hierdie onreg teenoor mense te voorkom nie? Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Madam Speaker, the worst floods in living memory recently occurred in the Southern Cape. Within a few minutes several farmers lost everything that they have built up for years. The FF is grateful for the flood disaster relief fund that was established to assist these people in their plight. People who suffered damages have already reported their damages and registered with the disaster relief fund. Following enquiries, it now seems that it would take between 12 months to 3 years before the fund can pay out any money.

The aim of a relief fund is to support people who find themselves in a financial crisis as a result of a disaster beyond their control. It is eventually an attempt to ensure that they do not lose everything as a result of such a disaster. At this stage some of the banks are busy buying out these farmers because they, as a result of this disaster, experience cash flow problems.

What is happening now is extremely unfair towards these farmers. By the time that the disaster relief fund pays out in twelve months’ time, it will be too late to make any difference to their financial position. The question is: Is there no other way in which the administration and payout of these funds could be hastened in order to prevent this injustice towards people? I thank you.]

                DEVELOPMENTS IN MIDDLE EAST SITUATION

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr B M KOMPHELA (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC notes that the National Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government approved the Quartet Roadmap. This roadmap is a plan aimed at bringing about an end to the legal occupation of Palestine. The ANC is of the view that an endorsement of the Quartet Roadmap by both the Palestinian National Authority and the Israeli government is an encouraging development in the creation of conditions for peace in the region.

The ANC is particularly encouraged by the fact that, for the first time, the Israeli government has given a formal recognition for the need to create an independent Palestinian state. We hope that the Israeli government will not allow itself to be detracted from a long walk to peace and freedom. I thank you. [Applause.]

                 BOTCH-UP BY STATISTICS SOUTH AFRICA

                        (Member's statement)

Mr C M LOWE (DA): Madam Speaker, South Africa’s credibility and hard-won monetary and macroeconomic policy lie in serious doubt, some would say in tatters, because of a major botch-up at Stats SA. It cannot be shrugged off as an error by the Minister of Finance, who must now account to hard- pressed taxpayers why and how they are paying for this mess with inflated interest rates. At best, it was an error based on a serious error of judgment, which in itself is inexcusable and deeply concerning.

At worst, it is a monumental blunder whose consequences are already reverberating around the globe and which affects the monthly budget of every single South African. [Interjections.] They are paying the price for Stats SA’s incompetence. Mortgage repayments, car loans, overdrafts, credit card payments and furniture HPs - hundreds of rands every month have all been overstated and all overpaid by millions of South Africans. How many jobs have also been lost? It is unbelievable that, having already requested a full CPIX review nearly a year ago, the Minister did not pick up on these errors as part of that process.

Madam Speaker, as the responsible line Minister for Stats SA, he should have the courage and the courtesy to account for this blunder, and say so. Thank you.

               POLICE INEPTITUDE IN PHILLIPI TRIANGLE

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr T E VEZI (IFP): Madam Speaker, the community of Phillipi triangle, comprising Victoria Mxenge, Vukuzenzele, and Ekuphumuleni suburbs in Cape Town, is facing increasing criminal activity. This community is situated next to the notorious Landsdowne Rd and Duinefontein Rd intersection, a favourite thoroughfare for car hijackers hitting motorists at intersection robots. This community is trying very hard to root out the criminal activity, and they have formed a forum addressing safety issues.

To this end the Community Organisation Resource Centre, the South African Homeless People’s Federation and the People’s Dialogue meet once a month to discuss crime and other community development issues. This community is, however, concerned about the lack of support, support they should be receiving from the Nyanga Police Station under whose jurisdiction they fall. On one occasion they had to lie to the police to make them come to their rescue, and say there was a house with dagga in it, to make them come.

They failed to get an urgent response from the police station on reporting a rape case. The police station did not send anybody to help them. To the false alarm on the dagga incident, the police sent five cars to control the situation. The Phillipi Triangle has thus informed those who attended their forum, including the Western Cape MEC for Safety and Security and the Nyanga station commissioner, that they would rather report criminal elements to the taxi bosses than go the police.

This situation needs to be addressed to inculcate the community’s trust in the local police. I thank you.

                     ABDUCTION AND MURDER OF MAN

                        (Member's Statement)

Miss T E LISHIVHA (ANC): Madam Speaker, the 40-year-old Mr Dovan Makato, a member of the SAPS in Limpopo at Mara police station was abducted on Tuesday, 13 May this year at his house at Saamkom. His dead body was found the following day, not so far from the police station in Vivo Road. Four suspects, amongst them a well-known teacher, were arrested as a result of whistle-blowing by the community. One suspect is still at large.

The ANC welcomes the role played by the community of Saamkom in assisting the police to apprehend these criminals. This confirms our view that the people, working together with the police, can successfully win the battle against crime, and build safer and more secure communities. The ANC calls on other communities to emulate this shining example. We hope that these alleged criminals will be put on trial, and that justice is meted out as soon as possible. I thank you. [Applause.]

                           LAUNCH OF NACSA

                        (Member's Statement)

Mrs A VAN WYK (New NP): Yesterday the New NP discussed with the Director- General of Arts and Culture, Dr Itumeleng Mosala, the tension between himself and the interim steering committee and Network of Arts and Culture South Africa following his withdrawal as keynote speaker at their launch next Friday. The DG cordially expressed his willingness to work towards resolving the problem. The launch of this network will establish a much- needed body to represent the interests of this wide-ranging sector. It will provide a one-stop communications channel that could simplify the work of the Minister and the DG.

The unfortunate misunderstanding should be cleared up as soon as possible, and the New NP has indicated that it is prepared to act as facilitator between the department and Nacsa. Friendly relations should be re- established as soon as possible. The public is entitled to good cultural services, as well as the sorely neglected culture and heritage sector of South Africa. It is time to unlock the economic and social potential of arts and culture in a focused way, and the New NP calls on Minister Ngubane and the department to emulate the successes of the Department of Science and Technology which falls within his own Ministry. Thank you. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, the ACDP has advised us that as today is Ascension Day, they would not be participating in the Assembly. We should therefore not have indicated them as wishing to give members’ statements. That leaves two slots from today, one of which will go to the ANC, and one to the DA. Does the ANC have a member who wishes to make a statement? DA? Don’t invent one if you don’t have one. [Laughter.] This applies to both sides. I think, in that case, we will now allow any Minister who wishes to make a response.

                           COMBATING CRIME

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, could I please get guidance from you on how you would like me to deal with the issues that have been raised. There are a number of questions and it is my intention to respond to all of them. Can I get guidance?

The SPEAKER: Order! I think there were about three, if I noted carefully. We will allow you a little leeway since we have time. Try and keep it to the point, please.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. Firstly, let me say that we in this House all know that the issue of crime is a matter that we are dealing with, with the resources that are available to us. Members also know that we have been appealing to everyone in the House that we need information. We need assistance and information from all members in order for us to deal with crime. I am happy that there are children up in the gallery who possibly are conversant with our Crime Stop programme. That programme helps them to understand matters of child abuse, matters that relate to drug abuse, and issues that relate, for instance, to the ownership of firearms in South Africa.

I therefore hope that they as children will always do what we ask them to do in all these cases - come forward and give information to the police so that cases that relate to crimes that are committed against them are investigated. I am grateful to Inkosi Hlengwa for the observation he has made, and I do want to assure him that we have programmes of this nature at all times. Yesterday I did indicate a number of operations we have mounted to deal with the issues of crime in South Africa. He will find now and again units from the SA Police Service who mount the operations that he has referred to. I can assure him that in KZN, if he goes to all the policing areas that we have there, the police will tell him about the programmes that they have to deal with the matter of crime and the mobilisation of our people to give us information.

With respect to what the hon Bakker was saying, it is true. I mean we can’t tolerate the commission of crime in this country and we must ensure that criminals are put behind bars, but as we say all the time: The police cannot claim the monopoly on being the only ones who can deal with issues of crime. We need the support of our people so that we can deal with crimes and criminality in our country.

Of course, I don’t know what the policy of the UDM is with regard to combating crime, but I think it is our responsibility as members of this House to try to educate members of that party and at least to say to them - which we believe is a very, very simple fact to understand: Crime statistics are not life-saving tools. You can’t say that for people to avoid crime, they must know statistics that relate to crime and that that will save their lives. [Applause.]

I am also happy that in Phillipi there is a movement of people who are trying to assist the police, but what I want to do is appeal to the hon member. Please write a report and submit it to us, because if police do not respond to cries for help, they are violating the very mandate that they have for the safety and security of our people. It is a very serious dereliction of duty, and we would want to bring disciplinary measures against police officials who act in that way. [Applause.] But please, everyone of us must tell our people that we will not tolerate the establishment of vigilante groups, because they themselves slip into criminality. We can’t allow that in South Africa. [Applause.] I say thank you very much to the hon Leshivha for what she has raised. The police require this kind of support. When one of their own has been killed, people rally around the bereaved family. It is important for us when this happens. We again want information so that those who have perpetrated this crime are arrested. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

                          SAFETY IN SCHOOLS

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you very much for your forbearance. There were two and half questions addressed to me. [Laughter.] The first was the ANC statement. I am a bit on the short side, so I won’t claim three full questions as my predecessor has claimed. Let me put some general principles to the House, which I think will meet our agreements.

One, no form of violence is acceptable in our society; two, no form of violence, especially the use of firearms, is acceptable in our schools; three, schools cannot be either prison houses or armed encampments, and four, one can’t have the police going to 27 000 schools in South Africa. So there is no point in asking for spot checks, and periodic checks, because Minister Tshwete and I went to a school which was a no-go area in the East Rand four years ago. We brought the police in there, we exercised our discretion and, in fact, within a year the school had achieved marvellous matric results when a year before it was totally derelict. So the next point to remember - I think it’s number five - is that we need to have the community involved and the resolution does say that. We have got to get the school governing bodies, the principals and the teachers and the learners’ councils involved.

Self-enforcement in the end is the most important one, and I was very pleased that in Phillipi the sense of the community was to give up the people who had committed the offence. The last point is simply that the Minister of Safety and Security and I, and particularly his predecessor, worked out the National School Safety Policy and I call it in my department the ``Steve Tshwete policy’’. I attribute it to him, and this is the most comprehensive approach to school safety. I mentioned the other day that in one of the places where trouble was taking place, there was no fence. So, in the past four years, hundreds of schools have been fenced. That is a start. Secondly, all schools now have janitors or caretakers who should be at the gate. Next, of course very important, is to instil in the school the idea that disputes must be settled peacefully.

I particularly say to those who run very high horses from a slightly left position, who say that we must admit all children to school, that part of the problem of discipline is that we have over-aged children, and some of the provinces say: But you can’t have a child three years older than that age group, which means we have 21/22 year olds. They should really be in technical colleges and community centres. However, I think if there is this broad approach, we can all do these things together. Let me announce that the Minister of Safety and Security and I will now be visiting schools, not selectively, but all, to bring this message across, and we will also to act as public representatives to ensure that the message gets across.

The second question asked by the New NP … You know, I certainly remember the first time when we had a conference on sex abuse and on HIV, when I coined this phrase that we must protect the ``right to innocence’’, not in a criminal sense, but children must be allowed to develop in their own time and experience those wonderful experiences that many of us went through - happy or unhappy - but in their own time and in their own period, rather than prematurely. The point about sexual abuse and violence is that it destroys the character and the personality of these kids. I lived in Ireland, for example, where I headed a commission of inquiry, and people came to me privately because I was a foreigner, and told me what had happened to them in schools and why they became nuns - because they had been violated in schools. Their relationship with other people had changed, and I think we must take into account what happens to the victims of sexual abuse, so the right to innocence must be protected. What follows from there is: Those who violate the right to innocence must be condemned to punishment, and I can tell you now that in the past two years the South African Council of Educators, acting much quicker than the provinces or the prosecuting authorities, has been dismissing offenders from the register. Once they are dismissed from the register they can’t teach. Unlike doctors who can come back to reregister, there is no provision for reregistering. That is the first point. The second point is that when there is a prima facie case like a serious allegation, the people concerned must be suspended immediately although there is a presumption of innocence. However, if there is a serious allegation made, and there is invariably a prima facie case, there must be a suspension, as happened in the Western Cape, without violating anyone’s constitutional rights.

I end by saying therefore that these rights are very important. One newspaper has accused me of being more considerate of the children’s freedoms. It is not that. If we behave like a permanent police state, as was the case before 1994, then everybody is presumed to be guilty. If there are reasonable grounds for believing that, in fact, a teacher has violated or students have violated the rights of others, particularly abuse, or there are reasonable grounds for believing that a child has a gun, then the law provides one to be searched and arrested. However, there must be reasonable grounds, otherwise we tear up the constitutional and legal order, which I think is falling into the trap the vigilantes are creating for us. [Applause.]

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 27 - Communications:

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, colleagues in the executive, hon members of this House and distinguished guests, we meet here at the end of a month that marked the sad passing away of Ntate Walter Sisulu from our midst, a hero of our people and a freedom fighter who all through his life worked tirelessly and selflessly to make our country great, and who nearly ten years ago, paying tribute to our new democracy, said:

It was a remarkable moment I can never forget, a situation I am unable to describe properly, where the masses gave us all leadership in an amazing way.

We too must never forget that moment. We cannot betray the trust the masses placed in this leadership.

This week we celebrated the 40th anniversary of the OAU, now called the African Union, an organisation that contributed greatly to the achievement of our democracy. Now, nine years into our democracy, as I rise to present this budget speech, the masses of our people are armed with determination to work hard in united action to bring about transformation and sustained development. The South African democracy continues to be strengthened. The Government of this country knows where it is going and where we come from, and we have no intention of going back there. In partnership with the people, we are driven by a commitment to democracy and are engaged in collective efforts to push back the frontiers of poverty and expand access to a better life. Our challenge is to do this in and through the Information Communication Technology, or ICT, sector.

The President has said that the tide has turned, and our task is to take this tide at the flood so as to make social and economic progress. In our sector the tide has indeed turned. The recent past that saw the fall of dot- coms and the slump in the telecoms industry is receding. It is in this vein that we speak about greater hope for using ICTs to expedite social and economic development and to change people’s lives.

Yet, in recent months the world has not been at peace. We have recently seen the use of ICTs, not for creative purposes or for social development, but for the purpose of destruction. A moment-by-moment account of loss of lives and destruction was relayed to all corners of the world through the utilisation of ICTs about a war we did not want, but could not stop, in Iraq. As South Africans, we believe in building relations of human solidarity.

Nine years ago most of our people could not imagine a world where anyone in a village or small town could access information about the history of that community through the push of a button and in the languages spoken within that community. Nobody could imagine a world where we would not have to queue for access to basic government services and where we would be able to access these services at one point. Nobody could imagine a world where e- learning flourishes so that those who are far from centres of learning can have access to the same information as those who are located near the educational institutions. Today, our people can imagine this and many often already experience it.

Today you can imagine a situation where access to telemedicine can improve the health of thousands of our people. Contemplate a world where new entrepreneurs in rural areas emerge, where new SMMEs generate more interest in their products and services through expanding market access by using Public Information Terminals in their neighbourhoods, and where rural electronic banking will be possible. Today we can imagine a South Africa where our youth run community media projects and make use of development communications, especially community radio, to create national networks that help to bring all together to strengthen democracy and participate at local level, inculcating a new consciousness of change.

This imagined world is not a far-fetched idea, but one that is beginning to happen. As we embrace these new technologies and meet our policy, as well as our legislative and regulatory challenges, we are beginning to transform our society.

In May 2002 I delivered the budget of my department. We undertook, together with our portfolio organisations and other Government departments, to broaden access to a better life. I am proud to say that my department has worked hard to succeed in accomplishing this. On the legislative front, electronic communications and transactions are now written into law. As required by the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act, a selection panel to appoint the Domain Name Authority Board is in place and more than 130 nominations for the board were received. It was, indeed, representative nomination. Secondly, the cyber inspectorate is now up and running and a trust centre is operational and is located in a safe harbour.

With regard to the 112 emergency services, the pilot project started in Klerksdorp has now been completed. The 112 services will allow safety, security and emergency services to be connected to the public in real time and to be deployed effectively to where they are needed through a dedicated national network. Lessons learned from the pilot will inform the roll-out process throughout the country.

The Broadcasting Amendment Act provides for the launch of regional television stations in two regions of the country. To this end it has been decided to close down the Bop broadcasting operation and replace it with a service to deliver indigenous languages to the northern region and, perhaps later, in another kind of service to the southern areas, in this way bringing some kind of equality to languages in our country.

The SABC has developed its editorial policies for news and other programming that cover, amongst other things, the issues of content, accuracy and impartiality which are now open for public comment. I hope that the public will comment, as I hear it commenting sometimes.

Last year we said that Government would launch a dedicated parliamentary service. This has been thoroughly researched and investigated, and it has become clear that both a television and radio service of a broader nature is required. Having taken cognisance of this, we will be launching an interactive information service that will give the public access to events both nationally and at provincial level. It is envisaged that the initial channel of delivery will be through radio satellite link-ups. This matter is now before Cabinet.

We had planned to have a Convergence Bill before Parliament. However, because of international developments, a depressed global telecoms industry and the need for broader international consultation, we embarked on a feasibility study to develop a policy framework for dealing with the complexities of convergence. This will now be followed by a national colloquium this year, preceded by regional campaigns. We are, however, still targeting the end of the year to table this Bill, which will revolutionise the sector, before Parliament.

The amendment to the Postal Services Act has strengthened the mandate of the Postal Regulator by separating policy from regulation, resulting in the appointment of the Chairperson of the Regulator who has extensive experience in the industry. I believe he will be an asset in leading the Postal Regulator as an independent monitor of ongoing developments in the industry.

Regarding our budget for 2003, in our national effort to eradicate poverty and to transform our country into a just and prosperous one, we also champion the People’s Contract for a Better Tomorrow. It is in the interests of the people that we wish to broaden access to services, stimulate economic growth, focus on human resource development and create the conditions for a better life and safer South Africa and for greater efficiency in delivery. To do this, we need wider access to services.

The Telecommunications Act provides for the 1800MHz spectrum to be issued to existing operators, the SNO and Underserviced Area Operators. A key element in this process is the determination of access fees and universal service obligations for the allocation of the frequency spectrum. We were able to negotiate the above, including new service fees and additional universal obligations, with the industry. Together with us they have made certain proposals regarding obligations, amongst others a supply of 250 000 free telephones and numbers to public emergency services over a period of 5 years; the provision of Internet and telephone links, including computers, at schools - I hope Minister Kader Asmal is listening; public pay phones in accessible places in rural areas and multipurpose community centres, and 4 million free SIM cards to be issued over a 5-year-period.

In line with Government’s co-ordinated working method, these obligations are to be delivered on the basis of a framework decided on by an interdepartmental team composed of the Departments of Communication, of Health, of Education, of Local Government and of Social Welfare, as well as the National Treasury, the SAPS, the SA Post Office and operators.

In the postal sector, the tide has indeed turned and implementation is on track. Considerable progress has been made operationally by the SA Post Office since last we reported to this House, with many cost efficiencies having been implemented. During the past two years the SA Post Office has made a significant breakthrough in the fight against crime and corruption. It did not come as a surprise, therefore, that the SA Post Office was nominated into the top five most secure mail services during the International Mail Awards held in Rome two weeks ago. We congratulate the CEO and officials for making us proudly South African. [Applause.]

Of course, the SA Post Office faces tremendous challenges as a result of new technologies. However, we will make efforts to make sure that post offices throughout the country get connected through focusing on PITs in rural areas and thus contributing to Government’s goal of integrated sustainable rural development.

Through the Northwest’s social development department, and along with Post Bank officials, our department has also started a pilot project which will encourage senior citizens to use the bank in accessing their pensions, thereby encouraging them to save with the bank. A secure and integrated solution has been developed to make sure that there is security.

The SA Post Office also has a role to play in capturing our heritage. It usually does so through the issuing of stamps. In memory of some of the best sons of our land, the SA Post Office has decided to remember our heroes by designing an everlasting commemorative stamp of Chris Hani and O R Tambo. [Applause.] I am glad to make this announcement in the presence of Mama Tambo in the gallery. Siyabonga [Thank you] Post Office, on behalf of Mama. Thank you, Mama. [Applause.]

In the broadcasting sector, more South African families today have access to information and education through television and radio. Almost 48% of rural households have TV sets, compared to 27% in 1994. Radio is also accessible via public, commercial and community radio, and 88% of the rural population now listens to the radio over a 7-day-period, compared to 79% in

1. Many people still say that we do not improve the lives of our people. These statistics speak for themselves.

The department is planning the SA Broadcast Content and Languages Summit which is to be held so that we can draw the policy makers, regulators, operators, broadcast content producers and civil society to look into the state of South African broadcasting.

This event will take place in September to enable delegates to assess the state of the South African broadcasting system, the services it provides against the backdrop of public needs and to look into the future of public broadcasting in South Africa, with a focus on content development and provision.

A growing economy that expands economic opportunities is important for this country. Managed liberalisation of the telecommunications sector is, therefore, important, and it has meant that we have to make careful and flexible decisions about what is to be done, create workable plans and find solutions for problems that exist. This was done in the case of the Second National Operator, as well as the Telkom IPO.

You will recall that last year we issued an ITA for a 51% stake in the Second National Operator. Two applications were received from consortia, but Icasa recommended that neither of them were in a position to take up this equity. I concurred with the recommendation and set about preparing an alternative process that would facilitate a way forward and, accordingly, I applied section 35(a) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 as amended, which provided for the Minister in specific instances to determine the manner in which applications may be made, the licensing process and conditions that will apply.

Thus, on 31 March this year, I issued a new invitation to express interest to apply for the stake of 51%. The process was conducted in four phases. The Second National Operator Committee that I set up has considered all expressions of interest. It has now conducted all negotiations, and yesterday I received the committee’s recommendation which I will be considering for later processing by Icasa. I expect that the license should be issued in the third quarter of this year and that the new player ought to be in operation soon thereafter.

Last year we announced the end of exclusivity for Telkom, and in March this year, as a result of the co-ordinated work of the Departments of Public Enterprises and Communications, Telkom and Icasa, Telkom has successfully listed on the Johannesburg Securities Exchange and the New York Stock Exchange. This was an important milestone in Government’s programme to liberalise the telecommunications sector. I wish to assure the industry and consumers that Government is committed to the introduction of a strong and vibrant future ICT sector.

With regard to Sentech, Sentech received its multimedia and international gateway licenses in May last year. Its international gateway is operational and the company has already signed up with a mobile operator. It commenced work with a phased roll-out of its multimedia network which will be offering a select number of products. This multimedia business will be launched before the end of the year.

With regard to areas that are underserviced and in which we have to issue licenses, the department has had regional road shows to facilitate the implementation of the legislation which provides for these licenses. An invitation to apply was issued for the first phase of the licensing in the following provinces: Limpopo, Eastern Cape, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal and the North West, and the closing date is 30 June 2003.

With regard to the Universal Service Agency, in accordance with the Act we have appointed a new board, as well as a new chief executive. This contributed to the changing of the stature of the organisation. A business plan has been developed to reposition the agency and redefine its corporate identity and, indeed, the tide has turned.

When we say that the tide is turning, we see evidence of it, particularly in the human resource development area and in how we are working together with the Government, with civil society and our parastatals and communities in accelerating the training of our young people and transferring skills.

The valuable work done by the Institute for Satellite and Software Applications and the National Electronic Media Institute of South Africa, Nemisa, is based on the understanding that as Africans, we need to assert our ownership and control over the production, management and dissemination of knowledge. It is part of reclaiming our dignity and self-worth, our desire to reclaim our African identity as scientists, as well as meeting the needs of the present with confidence. We should find the solutions to problems that are ours and emerge victorious in the future.

The Institute for Satellite and Software Applications has continued to work in satellite development and remote sensing, telecommunications, software and network engineering. It has now changed from being a primary academic training institute and more to being one for product development. Some of their projects include a satellite development group that is building a microsatellite that can scan water and electricity meters, reading them from above, saving municipalities millions in both time and money, and providing services to all of us who pay with a much more reliable account. I hope all of us will actually applaud this move by the young people of Issa. [Applause.]

They also have a project on computer virus monitoring, where they know and can tell you very early what virus might attack your computer. They have an electronic testing facility that enables industry to test products locally instead of in foreign laboratories. Some of the graduates have already patented their inventions, and they are sitting in the House above us and in front of us there. We want to congratulate them. [Applause.]

Nemisa is strengthening our democracy and, in doing so, we recognise that it is important that on full use and sustained development of our languages, they gather to contribute to a vibrant South African culture and identity. Nemisa’s work, through developing web-based language portals, takes us further along the road to language equality and is proof of how ICTs can be used to assert the rights of people.

Nemisa, which is made up of many young people, has undergone a strategic shift from traditional broadcasting training to a fully fledged multimedia training institute. Learners have received intensive hands-on experience to develop indigenous language-based portals. The portals are to be used to record the history of various languages and communities. That way we can indeed reclaim our languages and our history. This year, 65 graduates in radio and television and production will actually graduate from Nemisa. Some of them have already been placed with industry.

The programme for the Advanced Institute for ICTs is on track. A business plan for the institute has been finalised by the management team, working with various departments, and this plan will soon be submitted to the committee of Ministers for discussion in Cabinet. Regarding black economic empowerment, my department has already aligned its procurement policies with national black economic empowerment objectives. Our portfolio organisations have also paid major attention to this. In structuring the SNO, we set aside 19% to BEEs. Our broadcasting legislation has also included BEE quotas. Guided by the BEE Mining Charter and the work done by the Department of Minerals and Energy and the Department of Trade and Industry, we are in a consultative process to decide if we need a BEE charter for the ICT sector. The department has also undertaken a sector ownership survey of the industries in our sector. This study has been described by industry players as the most comprehensive audit of BEE players in these industries to date.

I would like to share a human experience with you. I would like to share with you the experience of the community of Westbury in Johannesburg, and how they have come together to change their lives. Westbury has a tragic history of gang violence. It took the genuine care and ingenuity of community leaders, especially through the efforts of people like Joseph Cottey, who is also sitting in the gallery, Don Mattera and many others, to bring the warring youth together through the establishment of the Westbury Community Development Centre which introduced the use of ICTs. [Applause.] The results have surpassed all expectations.

Members of this previously distressed community acted in concert to reclaim their community, to restore their dignity and to take their destiny into their own hands. Youth were taught computer literacy, television and production skills, and some have prospered on to careers such as production managers, producers, as well as directors. The community has also built its own outside broadcasting van. Members have seen the big OB vans that the SABC has? They have built their own one, and they have also built a basic radio studio and even established technical partnerships with Sentech and Multichoice to further their development.

We thank them for this work that they have done and for the support that our organisations have gained. We thank the SABC for taking eight out of nine of these trained youngsters, because their work was so good. I’d like to pay tribute to mentors such as Joseph Cottey and some of the Westbury group who are here today, as I said, for the work that they have done as true community builders and for making a difference. [Applause.]

As part of our contribution to a better Africa and a better world, we are supporting the work of the Nepad ICT task force, the e-Africa Commission that was established to formulate action programmes and projects to bridge the digital divide. Our efforts were further encouraged in Abuja in March this year, when the Nepad Heads of State and Government Implementation Committee commended the e-Africa Commission for its work and called for the immediate implementation of its ICT projects, including the e-Schools project, the e-readiness study and the development of the East Coast submarine cables in which Telkom is also involved. We are now grappling with how to link the landlocked countries, so as to make the African Renaissance a reality. The Digital Partnership South Africa Project, a public-private partnership established in collaboration with the Prince of Wales International Business Leaders Forum, acquires used computers from multinational organisations, gets them refurbished and deployed in schools countrywide. A refurbishment factory at Issa, our institute, is run by 15 women. This financial year, we will receive 67 000 computers. Together with the Department of Education and the Universal Service Agency, we are preparing a roll-out to all schools in the country.

The world of new technologies has also meant the arrival of new languages in the form of SMSs and a new shorthand. People are communicating more, quicker and better, and the new applications are revolutionising social behaviour. Soon MMSs, multimedia short messages, will come into common use and we will be able to see the person we are talking to on the other side. Soon we’ll be able to know exactly where people are calling from and this will contribute to bringing about greater security and community cohesion. What it, of course, will do is that Mr Kader Asmal will know whether his granddaughter is phoning exactly from where she says she is. [Laughter.] [Applause.] However, of course, this has implications for those young married men who might be telling other kinds of stories. Your wives will know where you are calling from! [Laughter.]

Technological evolution and policy intervention has made this possible. In the forthcoming year, we will revolutionise the role of the Post Office. We will create a policy framework for conversions that will lead to new services. We’ll deliver indigenous languages in regional broadcasting. We’ll develop more local content. We will inculcate a culture of saving amongst young people and help to create a safe haven.

I’d like to take this opportunity to thank my management team, the entire staff, as well as my advisers in the department for their hard work, particularly the sterling leadership of the director. My special thanks go to the outgoing Chairperson of the Communications Portfolio, Mr Nkenke Kekana, and all members of the committee for their unflinching commitment to realising the vision of the department. [Applause.]

Our loss of a chairperson who not only knew the sector well and continually kept abreast of developments, but also gave leadership to the committee in a manner that was most inclusive and avoided undue contestation on issues that we needed to tackle as South Africans interested in our country and its prosperity is, however, a gain to the industry. We wish you well, comrade.

Hon members, I wish to invite you to help us in our endeavours by voting to approve the budget for this financial year. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M K LEKGORO: Madam Deputy Speaker, the significance of the information age is that it has created information societies, societies that depend for their economic survival on the immediate access to large amounts of information on a global scale. It is in this context that communication in our country has become a sphere of academic persuasion, lucrative business and an area that Government regulates. In our time the most contested area of communication is mass media and how to disseminate information with speed.

The ANC resolved in its recent national conference in Stellenbosch that media and communications are contested terrains and therefore not neutral, but reflect the ideological battles and power relations on race, class and gender in our society.

The conference further resolved that the public broadcaster, the SABC, plays a critical role in shaping opinions and building societal values, including the moral fibre of our society, socioeconomic transformation and the building of a united, patriotic nation.

It is against this background that we should celebrate the achievements of our Government on the communications front since 1994. We turned around an institution that was used for selfish ends and returned it to the people. Our legislative and regulatory framework has turned the SABC into a public broadcaster that gives a South African expression.

We watched with dismay the role broadcasters could play with the invasion of Iraq by American and British troops. This was a clear illustration of how a broadcaster can simply be turned into a weapon of war.

It is our fervent belief that never again will the SABC be used by those in power as a weapon of war and propaganda. Never again will it be a tool to misinform, brainwash and control people. In this regard, our Government has turned the tide and positioned our public broadcaster as a reliable informer, educator and entertainer. We also welcome the latest initiative by the SABC in issuing their draft editorial policy to the public for comment.

During our interaction with the SABC and in other public fora, the ANC has consistently raised the issue of language on the public broadcaster. We have repeatedly made the point that language is a very important and emotional issue, especially in a country with diverse language groups such as ours. It impacts on the dignity of people and their sense of belonging. Language is a tool of building a united and patriotic nation. A public broadcaster as a mirror of our society is obliged to reflect people’s way of life, their cultures and their beliefs in their own languages.

It was with this in mind that we accepted the Government’s proposal that we provide in law for two regional stations which will further enhance the capacity of the public broadcaster to attend to the issue of languages. In our future interactions with the SABC we will take up this matter with the seriousness it deserves. These stations must be on air sooner.

Similarly, we will have to pay attention to our community of the deaf. Deaf SA, an organisation of the deaf in our country, say from their research that there are four million deaf people in the country. The ANC at its national conference resolved that the public broadcaster must ensure that its television programmes have close captioning, sign language and other means to cater for the deaf.

This is the same demand that Deaf SA put before our portfolio committee during the course of last year. We will continue to engage with the SABC on how best and how soon the deaf of our country can realise this dream.

We welcome the fact that the Government under the Media Development and Diversity Agency Act, has now established and funded the board. One of the central tasks of the board is to encourage ownership and control of, and access to media by historically disadvantaged communities, as well as by historically diminished indigenous languages and cultural groups.

The work of this board, if well executed, will be another milestone in urban and rural development. This will enhance the capability of Government to take information either in electronic or print form to areas that could otherwise not be reached by any media. Introduction and growth of media in South Africa will deepen democracy and encourage the participation of people in the democratic life of the country, and hence enable people to become their own liberators.

Icasa remains a clear signpost of how far we as a country have come and gone in introducing regulatory stability. Today we have a clear, legal, regulatory environment. Investors in the media and communication sector enjoy a predictable environment. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we can confidently say the merger between IBA and SATRA has paid dividends. Difficult and enormous as the work before Icasa might be, we are confident that the regulator is capable of addressing the concerns of industry and the public.

What Government must determine is the correct funding model for Icasa. We need to determine accurately, both in human and financial resources, what we require to build a capable and independent regulator.

Industry players who have huge resources continuously undermine Icasa through litigation. This eats into the already inadequate resources of the regulator. Government must definitely examine this situation and consider funding legal fees of the regulator directly from the fiscus.

Madam Speaker, for some time now, our portfolio committee has interacted with the advertising industry. These are companies that advertise a product in order to lure consumers into buying it. They do this through political messages, culture and use of our belief systems to get at the consumer. How we look at advertising and whether we agree with how it is done is a philosophical question.

What we know is that this is a big money-spinning industry. It needs the majority of our people, who happen to be black and African in particular, to enrich the owners of capital. The content of these ads must be South African and promote proudly South African products.

We expect the industry in the next three years to transform at equity and decision-making levels and also employ people mainly from the previously disadvantaged communities. It must be a world-class industry that is able to reflect our South Africanness.

It pleases us to report that in our opinion the industry agrees with our point of view. They have since adopted a value statement of the marketing and communication industry''. We view this statement as a step in the right direction. However, there is an English idiom that says theproof of the pudding is in the eating’’. It is our sincere hope that in our continuous interaction with the industry, they will demonstrate to us that self- regulation works without any legal intervention.

On signal distribution, Parliament gave Sentech an opportunity to deliver services through a multimedia licence. The Telecom Act 2001 has given Sentech an international gateway. These licences have given Sentech an enabling environment to roll out services beyond its traditional signal distribution. We are encouraged that Sentech is already switching telecommunications traffic between South Africa and other countries.

We expect that Sentech should use its multimedia licence to roll out to South Africans tele-education and telemedicine services. Telemedicine services in particular will enable rural communities to access the best medical advice from well-resourced areas.

Last year there was a great deal of excitement around the country when we were processing the Electronic Communication Transactions Act. What we had intended was the development of the information economy for social prosperity, and it is essential that we remove barriers to electronic communication and transaction in the Republic. We also intend to provide legal certainty and confidence in the sector.

However, we in the ANC believe that universal service, mainly to the underserviced areas of our country, is paramount. It is therefore important that we speed up the setting of the .za domain name authority for it to resume responsibility from the incumbent. We can only insist that Government does everything possible to ensure success in this regard.

I see my time is almost up, Madam Speaker. Let me see where to go now … [Laughter.] I still have a … Yes, but Madam Speaker, maybe I should end here and say in conclusion that I would like to wish Comrade Ned well in his new area of work, and to say that his knowledge and diligence in communication work was our source of strength. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M SMUTS: Deputy Speaker, although we will pay tribute to Rudi Heine later, allow me to say simply that he was a most beloved colleague - one of nature’s gentlemen - and that we will miss him personally and also professionally. He was the spokesperson for us on public enterprises, which is a field related to communications in these days.

Madam, the hon the Minister has been, in my view, fortunate in the degree of acceptance which has met her proactive personal quest for a majority stakeholder in the Second National Operator, or SNO, which I believe has to be one of the two really burning issues we need to deal with - competition to Telkom and then an overall policy.

So desperate is the need for competition to Telkom that only relatively muted criticism has surrounded the attempt to find a partner at any price. However, we do ask the question: What will that price be? Shareholder agreements concluded behind closed doors have not served us well in the past, and we do ask ourselves, Minister, how much hope there is of true competition, rather than collusion, when the competitive negotiation has occurred between bidders and the Government, which is after all a golden shareholder in Telkom and a 30% stakeholder in the SNO. The SNO licensing process belongs with Icasa which recently followed the DA in objecting to the department’s initial intention of usurping its licensing role outright. Icasa stood its ground and kept its integrity. We note the Minister’s progress reported today, and we must suspend judgment on the process until much later when Icasa has spoken.

Our greater concern, however, is that this exercise has not been so kindly construed abroad. It has been called ``just another slap in the face of the regulator’’. I believe, incidentally, the hon Lekgoro was correct today in setting the position, the health and the funding of the regulator as the barometer for how well we’re doing with liberalisation. I agree with many of his analyses of the problems, not necessarily with all the answers.

The decade of liberation in South Africa has of course coincided with liberalisation. We have systematically, over these 10 years, been setting up an independent, transparent, nondiscriminatory licensing and regulatory regime in the hands of the regulator. Why? To create a fair and level playing field for competition in which Ministers, like the old Posts and Telegraphs, no longer run any natural or unnatural monopolies or any kind of empire. And that process - I remind hon members - began in 1993 at Kempton Park. Now, in 2003, it seems to me there is a danger that we have come full circle when Gartner Dataquest in an investment advisory, bluntly advises telecom operators to ``work with the Department of Communications, rather than the regulator, as the former is clearly - for now - the executive of telecom policy in the country’’. When Gartner sounds a warning that stable legislative and operational frameworks are unlikely to be available during 2003, that means in ordinary English that the South African Government has been acting arbitrarily, ignoring the law of the land, which is of course what we have charged also in the context of broadcasting when the hon Minister wanted to approve SABC policies.

The Department of Communications should have been preparing South Africa for digitisation and the framework issue, instead of concerning itself with content. We don’t see why Esitel and Transtel couldn’t have found their own equity partners for the SNO. Instead, that search is where executive energy has gone. I think, Madam, that the Department of Communications itself realises that we have reached something of a crisis point. Ten days after we released the DA’s communications policy, the department announced a policy overhaul in line with our proposals on technological neutrality … [Interjections.] No, no, wait … and the separate regulation of transmission and content in the age of convergence. Now, if we helped to force the department’s hand, that is some reward for the long hours of work that we put into this policy field that so fascinates us. Likewise, I know it also fascinates the hon Minister. The Director-General has told me that he has read my paper, and that he does not disagree much. I think that is good news, so leave the catcalling. I think that’s good news. If we helped, that makes me very happy.

Technology runs ahead of any law that tries to restrict innovation. Sentech’s decision to build an Internet protocol-based architecture for wireless broadband means that millions of South Africans will soon be more inclined to make their voice-calls over their computers than their telephones, notwithstanding the law, and no-one is going to stop them, because nobody can police them. Sentech gets our prize for pushing the present regulatory envelope.

Technology also runs ahead of public policy, and I think we have now seen it proved that the roll-out of old-fashioned wires was overtaken by the private sector. More people have cellphones in South Africa than fixed phones. It is therefore quite clear that we are looking at a policy failure, and it seems to me from what the Minister has announced today that she recognises that. She is handing out four million more SIM cards, and we have the promise of a convergence colloquium. I think the recognition is there that the private sector has in fact been providing the universal service which Government policy has been based on in the name of the poor. The poor in South Africa today have pre-paid. They are all mobile, as far as cellphones are concerned, if not yet upwardly mobile because of other economic factors. However, it seems to me that Government is beginning to look in the right direction and we greatly welcome that, and we warn only that the policy overhaul must be genuinely fundamental and cannot rest on control of all of the operators by Government, whether as a part- shareholder, indirectly or directly.

Mr F T MASERUMULE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I have not known Ms Smuts for a long time, but because I have learnt that she is of my age, I can safely say I am going to enjoy this confrontation. She is a very good politician, but sometimes she becomes very careless with her ideas because she forgets that the very same constituency she is talking to is so exhausted with the ideas they are expressing on a daily basis.

Beside that point, the ANC wants to comment on a more serious note, on the death of hon Rudi Heine. Re apantisa [our deepest condolences] to the DA. Death is death. It does not know colour, age, size and shape; it is just death. [Interjections]

I was also not born a British citizen, by the way. My speech today is going to focus on postal services, but I am also going to dedicate my speech to Comrade Elias Motswaledi who used to be a good storyteller. The theme is river culture today. Amongst other things, if he was here, he would have loved to say to us

``šikiša dira le molapo mphago wa dira ke meetse, Nka se re ke re kgwathi wa palelwa ke go re kgwankgwa’’] [idiom]. I hope [Ke tshepa gore] ba ga Mohlala are here [ba mo], ka sepedi sa ga Sekhukhuni ba re mohlala wa kgomo ga o gwame go swana le eveready battery [idiom]. Kgomo ba re ge e eya go robala ga e apole sporty because ga e na sona. Le gona ga e role dieta, ga e apole underwear because ga e na yona go swana le ge e tsoga ga e dire dilo tVeo because ga e na tšona. It is an eveready battery, it is always ready to communicate. Mohlala wa kgomo ga o gwame [idiom]. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[It is said that when a cow goes to sleep, it does not take off its sporty because it does not have one. It does not take off its shoes or its underwear, because it does not have them. The same applies when it wakes up.] Flowing from the state of the nation address by the President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, if Comrade Elias Motswaledi was here amongst us, he would have said that - I remember this from a book co-written by him, Mlangeni and somebody else, the three of them; the book’s name is The Sun Will Rise - indeed, against all odds, the South African sun has risen and because it is the real South African sun that is rising, we are beginning to hear real drums of real South African gods. We are now seeing real rains, real summers and real winters because the South African sun has risen.

If I were nearer to the base, I would say the real struggle for a real better life for all of us has just begun. In spite of new challenges ahead, we can look back with some measure of pride, and, because our nine years experience is on the wall for everybody to see, we can encouragingly and continuously remain hopeful that with the new vigour, energy, vision and new ideas, we can with conviction and in unison prepare ourselves for the last long extra mile.

Those who are like me, who are rural in nature and character will understand how paramountly important it is for the mere existence of a post office. We are not talking here about a building which is built in marble, but a mere structure where we can go and collect our letters and buy our stamps on a daily basis. For us in the rural areas, it is a great achievement to have such a small structure. Indeed, it is of such significance that like any other institution that deals with educational matters, the post office can contribute to the improvement of the culture of writing, reading and learning too.

If I were to quote from Matefu, Comrade O R, not verbatim, he would have said `` Nothing can ever be powerful like a written word’’. If one wants to observe how fast communication has become these days as a result of the development of technology, one may as well watch an ostrich when her privacy is being violated by a raging veld fire, and see how quick it can be in extinguishing the fire. Even if we were to listen to his teaching, he would have taken it further and said that revolutionaries who would prefer to put their ear to the ground all the time to listen to the masses, must always listen to their heartbeats because, by virtue of being revolutionaries, they are part and parcel of the very masses themselves.

Comrade Minister, I just want to take one little example from the types of things one sees in the media and takes for granted sometimes. Here is a very fascinating story from Stellenbosch. Mr Dave Dalling, who is a former member of this House, I believe, paid a visit to a very poor and small dorpie outside Stellenbosch, at a place called Kayamandi which does not have anything to link it with the world in terms of communication. Currently, Mr Dave Dalling is heading a trust called Bridge The Trust. He quickly linked with Mr Manyatshe, the CEO of the Post Office, and the results will be witnessed by all of us.

I want to make an appeal, Comrade Minister. I personally undertook a visit to King Williamstown the other time. I went around to the post office. Some of our post offices are not very dirty; but they are not tidy. They need to be centres of delivery which people can be attracted to.

I also want to congratulate the responsibility that Mr Manyatshe took upon himself to try and deal with the reduction of the levels of corruption in the postal services. Sometimes when you are brave enough, especially when you are looking for the truth, you sometimes take a stick. We congratulate you, your team and your colleagues. [Applause.]

Finally, I want to appeal to Comrade Minister that if the budget does allow us to do so this year, in the next six months if possible, we should look into whether we might not be able to upgrade the satellite police stations that are there in the rural areas, especially in huge areas, and see whether they cannot be improved, especially when it comes to postal banks. I want to believe that I am talking on behalf of rural provinces, especially KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, North West and Mpumalanga.

Finally, I want to say to Comrade Nkenke: Go well, broer; it was such an exciting era to be with you. [Applause.]

Ms S C VOS: Madam Deputy Speaker, the IFP joins all hon members in this House in expressing our sorrow at the sudden death of Rudi Heine. I personally knew him as a kind man of great depth and dignity.

Madam Deputy Speaker, all Government departments can claim to be multifaceted and complex, and Communications is no different, but perhaps it is indeed more multifaceted and more complex than most departments. At the heart of this department lie the key, so-called ``sexy’’ sectors of broadcasting and telecommunications, with the poor old struggling Post Office most often given stepchild status, certainly by our committee, which we acknowledge time and again.

The IFP supports this Vote. However, we have no illusions that it is adequate for all of its competing needs, and this is a cry that we all know is echoed throughout this House in most of the Budget Votes.

Allocations to the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa, and to the South African Broadcasting Corporation, the SABC, in transfers in particular, may well prove to be grossly inadequate, given the mandates imposed on them by this Parliament.

The Post Office has been thrown another expensive lifeline, and there are signs that its new management is slowly managing to crawl out of the quicksand that they were thrown into. We are promised a positive turn- around in the next year. They are grappling, as we all know, with huge problems and the consequences of the past lack of a financial firewall between the Post Office and the Post Bank, being but one example at a cost of nearly R1 billion.

In South Africa the Post Office exemplifies in many ways, as the previous speaker talked about, the ongoing divide in our country between the haves and the have-nots. And for many haves, like us, it is unthinkable that we would not have a postal address and access to the Worldwide Web and speed couriers for our communication needs. On the other hand, millions of have- nots throughout our land continue to have no formal entry point for their communication needs. They have no address, no post box. In reality, they have no access to a critically important identity, like their names, and this is what we all know the Post Office is trying to address.

It is a mammoth task, and once again we utter what may appear to be glib words of encouragement as we watch those responsible for the Post Office negotiate their own shark-infested waters of criminality, competition, lack of capacity and so on and so forth, that is, the current South African song.

Broadcasting, too, brings with it a host of hopes and unanswered questions. Under the undoubtedly enthusiastic leadership of the new CEO of the SABC, who is ably assisted by a competent and committed SABC board, we are told of exciting developments at our public broadcaster. However, with the best will in the world, can the SABC really deliver on its huge and complex public service mandates, given the tasks imposed on them by this Parliament to be self-sufficient and to compete with itself as public and commercial entities? Is it really possible for the identified commercial entities, driven by the demands of advertisers and consumers, to deliver much of the money to pay for the costly public service channels required for the needs of language diversity, local content, news, current affairs, educational and religious broadcasting and so on and so forth? The IFP has its doubts.

It is relevant to note that in the introduction to the newly released draft editorial policies, the SABC board comments, and I quote:

A number of assumptions underpin the policies. One is that the SABC’s current funding model is maintained and another assumption is that the current legislative policy and regulatory regime will remain relatively stable. In today’s world of the convergence of broadcasting and telecommunications of which the Minister spoke, complex technologies and increasing competition and the Communication Department’s by-now reliable, ongoing and indeed legendary attempts to interfere with and manipulate the affairs of the SABC, the board can almost be assured that they are not home and dry.

We are promised new convergence legislation, as noted by the Minister, which will undoubtedly dramatically alter the current legislative landscape. Indeed, no doubt the very reason why the SABC board found it necessary to comment on the need for a stable policy and regulatory regime is because of their past experience of literally being yanked from pillar to post.

The draft editorial policies mentioned emanate from a hard-fought-for compromise in the last amendment to the Broadcasting Act which in its draft form required the board to submit its editorial policies to the Minister. Now the public is to have its say and the final product will, mercifully, be submitted to the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa instead of into the hands of politicians.

The IFP commends the SABC for the work done on the draft policies that overall appear to be excellent. However, we register our concern at the proposal which continually is referred to in the draft as upward referral'', upward referral’’, ``upward referral’’, with regard to editorial responsibility.

We do not believe management, in other words, the SABC group executive, should be in any way able to dictate editorial policy and be the final arbiter on decision-making relating to editorial comment. There must be a clear distinction between editors and management. In reality the SABC management must deal daily with commercial and political pressures. Let us not be naive about this. Editors, on the other hand, must be left alone to deal with journalistic judgments.

Finally, the IFP thanks Icasa, the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, for its often thankless task of steering the good ship regulator through the murky and choppy waters of our telecommunications and broadcasting sectors. We particularly commend its chairperson and councillors for their hard work and vigilance. They ably continue to protect and preserve the independence of Icasa and, like the SABC, they are not immune to the machinations of the department. Their recent reaction to a decision by the department, which appeared to sideline their involvement in the rescue 911 selection process of the SNO, is applauded.

Finally, the IFP says a final and formal farewell to Nkenke Kekana, our portfolio committee chairperson who is a hugely talented young man who clearly has much to offer the telecommunications industry. We wish him well and thank him for his hard work. Nat, you know that you played a critical role in setting a benchmark for inclusive negotiations in our committee, and for this you are owed a great deal of gratitude by the opposition benches, as well as all the relevant industry players involved. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mrs A VAN WYK: Mevrou die Adjunk-Speaker, die Nuwe NP wil graag sy simpatie uitspreek met die familie, vriende en party van die agb Rudi Heine wat so skielik heengegaan het.

Gisteraand was dit veral interessant om ‘n informele oorsig oor die suksesse en tekortkominge van die SAUK vanuit die perspektief van die SAUK- Raad te hoor. Me Barbara Masekele het onder meer genoem dat sy nog geen land teëgekom het waar die mense tevrede is met die uitsaaidienste wat aan hulle gelewer word nie, en dat Suid-Afrika nie die enigste land is waar soortgelyke probleme ervaar word nie. Sy het bygevoeg dat dit wat tans ervaar word, reeds vantevore ervaar is. Meer daaroor later.

Vir gewone mense bly pos-, telefoon- en uitsaaidienste die belangrikste kommunikasiemiddele. Ek wil die Minister, haar departement en die betrokke liggame gelukwens met die suksesse en met die goeie planne wat hulle beraam. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs A VAN WYK: Madam Deputy Speaker, the New NP wants to convey its condolences to the family, friends and party of the hon Rudy Heine who passed away so suddenly.

Yesterday evening it was especially interesting to listen to an informal review of the successes and shortcomings of the SABC from the perspective of the SABC board. Ms Barbara Masekele, among other things, mentioned that she has not yet come across any country where the people are satisfied with the broadcasting services which are given to them, and that South Africa isn’t the only country in which similar problems are being experienced. She added that that which is currently experienced, has been experienced before. More about that later.

For ordinary people post, telephone and broadcasting services are still the most important means of communication. I want to congratulate the Minister, her department and the relevant bodies on their successes and the good plans they devise.

I would like to commend Telkom on the targets achieved. Everywhere one goes, public phones have sprouted like a new kind of vegetation. The simple fact of being able to get in touch is an enormous reassurance to the citizenry. There is much work to be done, though, in respect of the cost to the consumer of telephone calls. There are countries where the cost is much lower and the majority of people in this country are poor.

I would like to see more money being made available to fund research and the development of modules to bring down the cost of calls and lines. We need to be able to make exact comparisons and calculate the true cost of this service to the public.

Pos is iets spesiaals, soos die agb Maserumule dit so mooi uitgedruk het, veral vir mense in afgeleë gebiede. Daar is ‘n soort opwinding daarin om ‘n brief of ‘n pakkie te ontvang. Die meeste mense het nie elektroniese kommunikasiemiddele nie. Dit is lekker om na die poskantoor te gaan, herken te word deur die personeel en om bekendes daar raak te loop. Vonkpos doen dit nie vir jou nie.

Die besondere rol wat die posdienste in die gemeenskapslewe speel moet nie verlore raak nie. Dit is presies hier waar ek dink die veeldoelige gemeenskapsentrums dit nog verder kan aanvul. Daar is oral nog ‘n ou poskantoortjie, dikwels nou in onbruik, en soms in aantreklike boustyle en sielige proporsies. Hulle, as deel van die bewaring van ons erfenis, behoort sinvol omskep of aangepas te word om in die nuwe veeldoelige gemeenskapsentrums opgeneem te word. Die publiek sukkel steeds te veel om gewone dienste te ontvang. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mail is something special, as the hon Maserumule put it so succinctly, especially to people in remote places. There is a kind of excitement involved when one receives a letter or a package. Most people do not have electronic communication devices. It is pleasant to go the post office, to be recognised by the staff and to meet acquaintances there. E-mail does not do that for one.

The special role the postal services play in community life should not be lost. It is in this area that I think multipurpose community centres can further supplement it. Everywhere there is still a little post office, now often in disuse, and sometimes in an attractive style of building and soulful proportions. They, as part of the conservation of our heritage, should be meaningfully transformed or adapted to be incorporated into the new multipurpose community centres. The public still experience too much trouble in order to receive normal services.]

Streamlining joined-up service delivery among the three spheres of government and administration should be a priority in this respect.

My agb kollega, Johan Durand, het versoek dat die publiek ook toegelaat moet word om insette te lewer in die beleidsformulering van veral die programinhoud van die SAUK. Die Nuwe NP verwelkom die Minister se aankondiging in die verband. Ons wil ook graag sien dat daar, benewens die Afrikaanse groepe, meer direkte deelname kom van die ander inheemse taalsprekers. Ons meen daar is nog nie genoeg nie.

Die openbare uitsaaier behoort ‘n sleutelrol te speel in taal- en kultuurbevordering van dit wat enig is aan Suid-Afrika. Ek verneem byvoorbeeld daar is slegs sewe boeke in isiNdebele gepubliseer gedurende die afgelope tyd. As die SAUK nie sy rol speel om ‘n leeskultuur te bevorder deur byvoorbeeld boekbesprekings nie, kan die uitgewers ook nie bekostig om te publiseer nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[My colleague, Johan Durand, requested that the public should also be allowed to make contributions to the policy formulation of especially the programme content of the SABC. The New NP welcomes the Minister’s announcement in relation to this. We also want to see that, in addition to the Afrikaans groups, more direct participation comes from the other indigenous language speakers. We are of the opinion that there are still not enough.

The public broadcaster ought to play a key role in language and cultural advancement of that which is unique to South Africa. I have, for example, learnt that only seven books in isiNdebele have been published in the recent past. If the SABC does not play its role in promoting a reading culture by, for example, having book discussions, publishers can also not afford to publish.]

Another thing one has to consider is that the taxpayer, via the SABC, has to pay for the privilege of marketing and promoting American cultural products. Massive sales prove that cultural imperialism is a reality. Film, video and, above all, popular music transmit the frame of reference and value systems of the culture of origin.

As ‘n mens byvoorbeeld die radiostasies in Wes-Kaapland aanskakel, is die oorgrote massa musiek wat uitgesaai word Amerikaans, of dit nou gospel, rock, rap of wat ook al is. Natuurlik is veel daarvan afkomstig uit die kommersiële sektor, maar veel ook van die gemeenskapsradio en veral die SAUK, wat deels met belastingbetalersgeld gefinansier word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[If one, for example, turns in on the radio stations in the Western Cape, the majority of the music that is broadcast is American, whether it is gospel, rock, rap, or whatever. Obviously much thereof comes from the commercial sector, but much also comes from the community radio stations and especially the SABC, which is partly funded by taxpayers’ money.]

The entertainment and electronic media is also a way of preparing or creating markets for other products.

Dan is daar ander aspekte van die TV en die radiodienslewering wat skeefgetrek is. ‘n Deel daarvan is die ou storie dat te veel in Gauteng gesentreer is, en dat die ander provinsies se opname- en uitsaaigeriewe verouder, onvoldoende, onderbenut of onderbemark is. Meer klem op streke kan ‘n deel van die probleem oplos en ook geleenthede bied aan die opkomende musici en uitvoerende kunstenaars wat nie almal na Johannesburg wil gaan nie. Soveel van die talent in ander plekke waar groot konsentrasies mense is, word eenvoudig nie die geleenthede gebied om lugtyd te kry en bekendheid te verwerf sodat hulle uiteindelik ‘n inkomste kan verdien nie. Dan het ek nog nie eens begin praat van die binnelandse gebiede nie.

Die eintlike ding wat my en die publiek die meeste grief is dat Engels die ankertaal is van die SAUK. Meneer, kom ons gebruik Afrikaans, ons eie ontwikkelde inheemse taal, as die ankertaal om al die ander tale te bemagtig. Dit is ‘n elegante medium, en dit is tyd dat die uitsaaiwese daardie ander oorwegings laat vaar ten gunste van gesonde verstand. Dit geld die mark en advertensiewese eweneens. Adverteer in Afrikaans en al ons inheemse tale soos toepaslik. Engels kan na homself kyk.

Laastens, die ryke verskeidenheid van kultuur en taal wat Suid-Afrika so fassinerend maak, word nog nie voldoende weerspieël nie. En daar is te veel van ‘n Gauteng-gesentreerdheid wat verpersoonlik word deur ‘n program soos Gauteng-aleng. ``Dis lekker in Gauteng-aleng.’’ Almal dink nie so nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Then there are other aspects of television and radio service delivery which are skewed. Part thereof is the old story that too much is centred in Gauteng, and that the other provinces’ recording and broadcasting facilities are dated, insufficient, underutilised or not properly promoted. More emphasis on regions can solve part of the problem, and also offer opportunities to the upcoming musicians and performing artists who do not all want to go to Johannesburg. So much of the talent in other places where there are large concentrations of people are simply not given the opportunity to get airtime and to become famous. Then I have not even started talking about inland areas. The actual thing which grieves me and the public most, is that English is the anchor language of the SABC. Sir, let us use Afrikaans, our own developed indigenous language, as the anchor language to empower all the other languages. It is an elegant medium, and it is time that the broadcaster let go of those other considerations in favour of common sense. This is relevant for the market and advertising as well. Advertise in Afrikaans and all our indigenous languages as applicable. English can look after itself.

Lastly, the rich diversity of culture and language which makes South Africa so fascinating, is still not mirrored sufficiently. And there is too much of a Gauteng-centredness which is personified by a programme like Gauteng- aleng. ``Dis lekker in Gauteng-aleng.’’ Not everybody agrees. [Interjections.] Thank you very much.]

Ms N S MTSWENI: I support the Budget Vote on behalf of the African Naional Congress. The tide has turned. Let me echo the words of the President in the 2002/2001 South African Yearbook, when he said that ``since the dawn of democracy in 1994, Government has made steady progress in implementing its mandate to create a better life for all South Africans.’’

The ANC, at its 51st Conference in Stellenbosch resolved that Government should increase access to the information communication technology sector to previously disadvantaged communities, and encourage co-ordination of the existing ICT initiatives, such as telecentres and multipurpose communities centres, as well as public awareness on ICT and its impact on human development.

Today as the ANC, we are proud that the Department of Communications has indeed succeeded in fulfilling its mandate of creating a better life for all South Africans. We are encouraged by the work of the Ministry in working together with other Ministers on the African continent to improve the quality of life of the people of Africa. We applaud the work done by the mobile operators, Sentech and Telkom in rolling out services to the people of Africa. The miraculous roll-out of services, especially in the DRC and Nigeria by South African companies, Vodacom and MTN, has not only provided access to services by consumers, but it has also created jobs and injected life into these economies of our beloved continent. The performance of the ICT sector will assist in the renewal of Africa and Nepad and build confidence in the efforts of our leaders of the African continent.

As the ANC has declared this as the month of urban and rural development, I indeed need to emphasise that the ANC has always been aware of the major discrepancies between infrastructure in urban and rural areas. This is the reason why the main thrust of our communications and telecommunications legislation has been to roll out infrastructure and services, especially to these underserviced rural communities. Our policy thrust is aimed at pushing back the frontiers of poverty, hence our commitment to improving the quality of life of the poorest of the poor. I am confronted by poverty every day in my constituency, and the ICT sector has to make a contribution in bringing a better life for all in our communities. An assessment of the period of Telkom’s exclusivity is that many lines were disconnected due to various factors. However, in rural areas, the billing system is a problem because people do not have addresses at which to receive their mail. Our entire sector must therefore work in an integrated manner to remove any obstacles. The Post Office has to accelerate the roll out of addresses, as this example demonstrates how the lack of addresses impacts on services or service delivery.

We are encouraged by the introduction of pre-paid services. Pre-paid services help in situations where people do not have addresses. It helps people also to budget. As a mother, I can attest that children can run up telephone bills beyond one’s budget, thus getting you into financial trouble. Pre-paid services have come as a godsend to many families.

Telkom must encourage consumers to migrate to pre-paid systems and must issue all pre-paid customers with the requisite booklets on how to operate this system. Pre-paid services must be made more user-friendly and more affordable. If this is implemented properly, there will be no bills, no more unpaid services and no more disconnections.

We call on communities to work closely with Telkom and the police to stop copper theft. Once a copper wire is cut, it can disrupt services to the entire community. In the spirit of vukuzenzele, we appeal to the communities in both urban and rural areas to blow the whistle and take ownership of their services. This will assist in avoiding continuous disruption of access to telecommunication services.

We call on the Minister to encourage the Universal Service Agency to do its job of ensuring that telephone facilities and services are properly rolled out and raise awareness about universal service issues. The Ministry and the department must assist the USA to deliver its mandate as stipulated in the Telecommunications Act.

We need to come to a common understanding in South Africa on what universal service means. It must not only mean the connecting to a fixed-line phone, but must also include connection to a fax and the Internet. Not only this, but we must also factor in the latest developments in mobile telephony, especially considering what has happened recently in developing countries, including those on the African continent.

When we walk the streets, when you are at a taxi rank, in rural areas, all over, you meet people chatting on cell phones. It is clear that the cell phones have become a basic service. In South Africa this is demonstrated by the number of cell phones as compared to fixed lines.

Cell phones have quickly overtaken fixed-line phones in becoming a basic service. Currently Telkom subscribers stand at about 5 million subscribers, whereas cellular subscribers amount to more than 11 million customers. The ITU definition of teledensity currently only takes into account fixed-line services. This means that it has not recognised the technological advances made by mobile services in developing countries. At the next ITU conference in Geneva, we must therefore strongly motivate that, based on our own experience in developing countries, the current definition of teledensity be reviewed to factor in the roll-out of mobile services. [Applause.]

We welcome the announcement of the Department of Communications to conduct a major review of our telecommunications policy impact by 2005. We already anticipated this when passing our Telecoms Act. When we discussed fixed- mobile definitions, we attempted to capture the convergence of technologies and the blurred technologies used by fixed and mobile operators. Our policy review must recognise that we should remain technology neutral. However, technology is not an end in itself, but rather a means to achieving our national objectives. Technology must assist in skills development, alleviation of poverty, and improving the quality of life of women and the disabled. We urge all industry stakeholders to work with the DoC on the telecommunications review and to come up with well-considered convergence legislation. The industry must appreciate that we want a South African solution to this problem. Policies which will come as a result of the review must assist in rolling out services to the rural areas while continuing to introduce advanced services to existing subscribers.

We, however, urge that universal service obligations remain critical. While operators will be able to use whichever technologies they want to provide services … Deputy Speaker … What is happening now? … We understand that the deaf/hard-of-hearing community constitutes 10% of our population. This means that communication for the deaf by telephone is through SMS. The costs of SMSs, however, is far too high for deaf people who are also unemployed. Every South African should have access to information and the means to communicate as well as access to telecommunications. The high price of SMSs makes the means of communication prohibitive for deaf people and this ought to be addressed. I would encourage mobile operators to consider this. They must either bring down the prices of SMSs or have a special package for people who use SMSs frequently.

In conclusion, we wish to say that the ANC supports the Budget Vote, and would like to thank the DG and the Minister and the department. Finally, I would also like to say a final thank you and farewell to our chairperson, Nkenke Kekana. Today is very likely the last day we will see you as an MP in this Chamber. Thank you for your exemplary leadership and your guidance. We wish you well in your new endeavours and the new challenges that you will be confronted with in your new work. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr V C GORE: Deputy Chair, today this House must consider the budget of the Department of Communications and determine whether it has fulfilled its mandate. The pertinent question that must be asked is whether the ANC-led Government has kept its stated promise of collapsing the digital divide. Despite the Ministers’s claim of success in many fields today, with all due respect, Minister, these have been in small areas. The major areas have not been addressed, or they have not been adequately addressed.

In his 2002 opening address to Parliament, the hon President, Thabo Mbeki, announced that as an example of the ANC’s delivering a better life for all, the Government had secured an agreement with Microsoft to provide all 32 000 schools in South Africa with free software. The gesture and the promise were seen as a valuable tool in bridging the digital divide in South Africa.

However, what has happened since then? Of these 32 000 schools, less than 700 have actually received any software. An embarrassing and unacceptable 2% of South African schools have been unable to make use of this R100 million donation. The reasons tendered by the Government for this bureaucratic bungling, such as signing of agreements and posting of application forms, are simply not adequate.

The ANC Government has failed yet again on another promise. Instead, we have a situation in which thousands of schools and hundreds of thousands of pupils have a false expectation that they will be part of the cyberworld.

Next week, on 7 June, it will be exactly one year since this House passed the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act. It would be instructive to examine the Act’s implementation over the past year. In the past year, highlights of the Department of Communications include withdrawing a scathing attack on Namespace, with the excuses: It went out by mistake,'' andIt was published by mistake’’.

Secondly, there was the publishing of a website for the registration of authentication services, cryptography products and holders of critical databases, including the ludicrous cost of a nonrefundable R25 000 application fee. The website was quickly pulled down with the overused ANC excuse that it was a mistake'' and that it was atest run’’.

Thirdly, there was the failure to register a domain name to be used in the selection process for the domain name authority, and then they used strong- arm bullying tactics to wrestle control.

In the past 12 months, in addition to these bungles and despite being required to by the Act, the Department of Communications has failed to establish an accreditation authority, with the result that despite the intention of the Act, many legal processes cannot be done online yet because the accreditation structure for digital signatures does not yet exist.

The department has failed to establish a register of cryptography service providers, creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and unpredictability to the extent that some businesses are refusing to ship their products to our shores, and even people like Bill Gates may be too scared to visit our beautiful country because he, too, could face arrest.

The department has failed to implement the notorious cybercops. There have been some indications that these crime fighters will be unimplementable, but even if they were implementable, it would be on the basis of a reservist system. Perhaps the hon Minister would like to respond on these matters.

The evidence is irrefutable. Despite millions being spent in money and time by the Government and industry on the Green Paper process and the whole e- commerce debate, many of the warnings and objections raised by the stakeholders, particularly by the DA, have come home to roost.

Where the ECT Act is successful is in the creation of a framework and, where it has failed, is where the Government has attempted to extend its control and usurp the interests of industry.

The DA was clear during the parliamentary process, and we are clear today in this House in that the clauses of the Act that remain unimplemented are exactly the ones that were and will remain unimplementable.

Today the Minister spoke of the future - the forums, councils and colloquiums that will be formed or established to discuss the role of the ICT sector, but the promise of collapsing the digital divide remains unfulfilled. Until we move away from workshops and talkshops and unfulfilled promises to actual delivery, that divide will remain.

In my concluding remarks, I would like to pass on my sincere feelings to the family of our dear colleague Rudi Heine. His passing is a loss to our party, a loss to this House and a loss to this country. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M G PHADAGI: Chairperson and hon members, since 1994 the SABC has experienced a turnaround in its operation. It now has a capable leadership in the form of a properly constituted and accountable board and management. It is making a contribution to our country by informing, educating and entertaining the nation. It is for this reason that we can proudly say that the SABC is on course.

Later this year, we will be appointing a new board to take the SABC beyond the present transformation agenda, but what is this board going to look like? As the ANC we are expecting a public-funded model by the year 2012. If I may, I would like to clarify what is meant by a public-funded model. According to the resolution adopted by the ANC at its 51st national conference in Stellenbosch, a public-funded model of the public broadcaster is characterised by cross-subsidisation, including parastatal sponsorship of local content and investment from different departments.

Furthermore, to reduce SABC dependence on advertising revenue, the Government must increase its funding of the public broadcaster. While being entertaining, the SABC must also inform people and let us celebrate our South African institutions. For example, it could showcase through soap operas and dramas how our courts, police departments and health departments, etc, work. This will inform and educate people, but this could also be done in an entertaining fashion. Instead of the department spending money on traditional methods of advertising, they could use the public broadcaster to create awareness in an entertaining manner.

As you all know, Takalani Sesame has received international acclaim. While still on the issue of content, we expect higher content targets as the SABC must be about South Africa and tell the South African story and reflect the South African experience. South Africans must be able to see themselves on the broadcaster. Their experiences and aspirations must be captured.

While capturing the diversity of our people, the SABC must also instil a sense of unity and national pride. In taking this matter further, Parliament is hosting the SABC on 3 June to talk about its draft editorial policies. These policies, we hope, will eventually result in programmes of a higher standard and quality, ones which will be sensitive to culture, gender and the well-being of children; programmes which will not promote violence against women and children, but ones which will help to end violence against them.

The Broadcasting Act which we amended and passed last year made provision for two regional language television stations to be licensed. We expect these stations to be up and running by the end of this year. These stations must help to promote multilingualism and must unite our people. Furthermore, a dedicated parliamentary radio station and a dedicated parliamentary television channel must be established. This will enable us to take Parliament to the people, and this House will be able to communicate directly with the constituencies it is serving.

The ANC 51st conference in Stellenbosch also put forward a resolution on the issue of advertising and the marketing industry, namely that we must pursue the transformation of this industry, including the training of previously disadvantaged individuals, and that we must engage the industry and encourage local content and the production of advertisements that are not degrading to women and to people with disabilities.

A few weeks ago the advertising industry acknowledged the intervention of our committee in the area of advertising and marketing. About one and half years ago, we called the industry to Parliament and held public hearings on racism in the industry. The industry now acknowledges that there have been problems in the industry and they appreciate the intervention of the committee in this regard. To this end, on 6 May this year, they awarded the chairperson of the committee, Nkenke Kekana, the advertising personality of the year award. I expect you to clap hands for that because it is an achievement … [Applause] … in recognition of the way he forced them to face up to empowerment issues in the industry.

We are encouraged by the willingness of the industry to transform and the commitment it has already begun to display. Recently, the industry issued a value statement. This is a step in the right direction. We are already seeing changes. Some stations which previously would not have received much advertising are now beginning to receive advertising. We call on government departments and parastatals to support the media which promotes local content, stations which play South African music and which are accessible to people who speak the various 11 national languages. The Government should also increase its advertising spending in the community media.

We have seen some major achievements between the period 1994 and this year. This House has passed several pieces of legislation to regulate the work of the public broadcaster. We have seen the integration of the TBVC broadcasters and the transformation of ethnic and racially based radio and television channels to what they are today. Today we are proud of channels such as SABC Africa which is promoting our continent, the AU and Nepad.

The last time we had the SABC board before our committee, we complained bitterly about several issues, including issues of local content, quotas, the strong bias towards English-medium broadcasting, programming and news slots, making SABC Africa more accessible and so on. We are happy that we are now noticing some changes the public broadcaster has begun to implement.

We are also mindful of the fact that the public broadcaster occupies a unique and central role in building and deepening our democracy by promoting respect for democratic values and human rights, by supplying information that allows our citizens to exercise their rights and by reflecting, through its programming, the rich diversity of our country.

Therefore, critical for the achievement of these important goals are a stable organisation, excellent leadership, great talent, South African programming that gets our people talking, financial health and a positive, proactive and dynamic organisational culture.

In many of these areas, good progress has been made. For example, the SABC has been stabilised. No longer are staff and critical talent leaving the organisation in droves. Competent leaders and managers have been recruited, for example, new managers who are not so new anymore. The heads of television and radio news and SABC Africa are doing sterling work.

Local content produced and transmitted on television ranks amongst the best in the world, and the South African audiences love. Emzini Wezintsiswa, Muvhango, Generations, as well as youthful dramas Gaz’lam, Tsatsa and Yizo Yizo. However, the SABC is also producing world class educational programmes and documentaries, such as Takalani Sesame, Thetha Msawawa, Soul Buddies, Tobias’ Bodies and the soon to be screened African Solutions.

News and current affairs are also doing well in the sense that coverage of the World Summit on Sustainable Development has been done properly, as was the coverage of the funerals of Comrade Walter Sisulu, Govan Mbeki and Hansie Cronje.

Many current affairs programmes have been introduced, such as Asikhulume and Interface. News bulletins have been introduced in Seswati and isiNdebele, while we expect the Xitsonga and Tshivenda bulletin to go on air, as promised, in July. This is good news for the Limpopo people. The Sotho/Tswana news bulletin has now been brought forward to an earlier time slot.

Financial stability and sustainability have now been achieved with the SABC declaring a profit in the year 2001-02, even though it is very small. The SABC remains with the huge challenge of financial technology upgrading and the shift from analogue to digital broadcasting, and this will require financial attention and effort.

The SABC must take its rightful place as a public broadcaster and deliver on its mandate to educate, inform and entertain, just like other broadcasters in the world do, and also further address the issue of sign language and close captioning, so that television viewing may be more accessible to the deaf and hard-of-hearing communities.

Kha Vho-Kekana ri a livhuwa. Ndaa! [Thank you, Mr Kekana.]

Mintirho ya Vulavula. [Actions speak louder than words.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, Minister, molo mhlobo wam [Hello my friend]. To the DA, the thoughts of the MF are with you in your time of sorrow.

This department serves as the heart of our information economy and knowledge. Through the department’s mission, ordinary people are given access to traditional media and information technology. This certainly contributes to the improvement of the quality of life of our people and economic growth.

The MF is pleased to note that during the course of 2001 and 2003 an additional 1,5 million South Africans gained access either to radio services for the first time or to improved radio services in accordance with the department’s commitment to advance universal service in broadcasting. It is encouraging to note that the advancement does not only mean keeping up with global trends and technological development to reach out to our citizenry far and wide in every way in which communication is possible. The performance and advancement of our course is hindered by illiteracy, poverty and minimal resources, but the department appears to have a programme in place to work around this.

Attendant postal cost is certainly an asset to the disadvantaged. The MF applauds the postal service on adjustments made and good service delivery. Internet communication, as well as telecommunication show a growth which Government programmes use to educate in townships and rural area. Proudly, South Africa ranks twenty-third in telecommunication development and seventeenth in Internet use globally. Telecommunications alone contribute between 4% to 5% to our gross domestic product and it is the fastest growing industry. Cellular telephones have sprouted throughout South Africa.

We support the Bill. We wish Comrade Kekana well in his new venture. Thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Chairperson, hon Minister, when you spoke this afternoon, you spoke about the tide having turned. You could have also said that this is about endless possibilities because, indeed, what we are dealing with here is about endless possibilities. The department has indeed made great progress, and South Africa has to be extremely thankful for that.

What I would like to do, is to make a few suggestions as to how we can take what has been done a little bit further. I would like to see the strengthening of Icasa’s powers. If it is given the authority to penalise anticompetitive behaviour, it would be a very good start. I would like to see it creating a specialised court of appeal that can deal with litigation by regulated firms quickly and effectively. If this could be done, it would help immensely to increase the resources given to Icasa, especially the human resources in the form of economists, lawyers, engineers and other technical experts so that it can adequately monitor firm behaviour.

We should also look for greater competition. I think you yourself have acknowledged that in service provision entrants should be allowed to bid for universal service susbsidies that contribute to the cost of rolling out infrastructure. Targets and conditions should include the following: An affordable tariff, provision to ensure that the tariff is not heavily increased in the first years of operation to prevent potential bidders from undervaluing the cost of provision; target levels of teledensity and service provision; a maximum allowance for cut-offs, forcing bidders to rigorously evaluate future cost and income flows, adequate consultation and buy-in from the community, and some provision for greater employment or skills development of community residents.

We also need to look at the greater liberalisation of the industry. I think this is common cause, because that has the real potential to create many more jobs. We should be moving towards greater liberalisation in order to foster competition and lower costs to consumers, lower the costs of doing business in South Africa and so attract foreign direct investment, create employment by increasing the demand for young South Africans with the ITC skills, export skills to neighbouring countries and globally, creating regional networks, and positioning South Africa as a regional leader and provider of IT services.

I think we also need to give serious consideration to this whole problem of spam. The United States and other countries are beginning to provide statutory regulations to begin to control spam. I think if we begin to do that now, we would be proactive.

Something else that we need in order for the African Renaissance to actually begin to blossom, are dedicated ICT public libraries. The cost of books in respect of ICT is so prohibitive that those people in our communities who cannot afford to go to technikons or universities do not have any alternative whereby they can begin to acquire the knowledge that would set them on the road to self-improvement.

We also need to look at the creation of basic devices to be purchased by people which could be used in homes so that Internet connectivity is guaranteed universally across all population groups in South Africa. At present the cost of acquiring a computer is forbidding.

We have spoken previously in Parliament of the need to make this Parliament an e-Parliament in order that all the people of South Africa can communicate with us and we can communicate with them.

We support you. You have done an excellent piece of work. The better the work you do, means that South Africa is going to be on the high road to economic prosperity. We thank you, our Minister. [Applause.]

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, Madam Minister, early this year, the postal regulator which costs the taxpayer roughly R2,8 million per annum, failed the very people they are supposed to protect - the post office consumer. They failed the consumer because for the second year in a row, they awarded the Post Office a higher-than-inflation postal tariff increase. This 10% increase has resulted in hard-pressed consumers having to fork out an additional 15 cents to post a letter. The new price will be R1,65.

When the Post Office was granted a 25-year monopoly on all postal items under one kilogram, it signed the licence with the Government. Both increases have been in contravention of the Post Office licence agreement which states that, and I quote:

For as the licence is exclusive, be subject to a price cap, which the Regulator currently intends shall not exceed Consumer Price Index.

The projected CPI for this year is 7.7%, not the 10% that the regulator awarded.

The higher-than-inflation increase illustrates two points: Firstly, the need for the Post Office’s monopoly to be scrapped and, secondly, the fruitlessness of a body such as the regulator which is incapable of looking after the interests of the consumer. Another project the postal regulator has undertaken is to regulate the express delivery service industry, which is of great concern to most operators in the private sector who believe that they have been targeted due to an error in the drafting of the Postal Services Act.

None of these private organisations had any idea that the Department of Communications was about to claim the right to control and tax them on the ground that they were providing postal services. The very fact that the Post Office operates its own express delivery service business through the Courier Freight Group is the Government’s own admission that the express delivery service is serving a different market, providing different services to that of the Post Office.

The practical reality is that the Post Office is the cheapest option available to the people of South Africa, and will therefore always be the first choice for anyone wishing to send an item. No rational person pays more than he or she has to pay for a product or service he or she needs. If the Post Office feels it is necessary to protect its position by prohibiting private operators from charging the same price, there are precedents such as the measures taken in Australia and other countries which we can use.

For example, in 1975, with the establishment of Australian postal commission, the commission retained the qualified letter monopoly where letters weighing up to and including 500g were referred to as the reserved services. However, private companies were allowed to compete with the Australian postal services in the carriage of letters in the reserved services if they charged at least 10 times the standard letter rate.

In 1994, the weight and price threshold to competition were reduced in Australia from 500g to 250g and from 10 times the letter rate to four times. If South Africa were to use the same formula, private companies would have to charge at least R16,50 for them to deliver a standard letter. This cannot be considered competition for the Post Office. As the legislation currently stands, and as the regulations are currently worded, the private sector is threatened with the imposition of an arbitrary and damaging tax which can only damage the industry and, ultimately, the economy. It is to be hoped that the long-awaited regulations will resolve this situation.

Another concern for the DA is the fact that the financial statements for five financial years were outstanding until recently. In February, we received three years’ financial statements. However, the 2000-01 and 2001- 02 statements are still outstanding despite the assurance made in the committee meeting of 18 March 2003, and a later hollow promise by the Minister herself that we would be receiving them in April this year. This promise was made in a parliamentary reply.

Chapter six of the Public Finance Management Act states that the financial statements must be submitted within five months of the end of the financial year. This just shows how the Minister and her department had been allowed to flout the law yet again. Lastly is the issue of the fine the Post Office had to pay for using software illegally for a period of nine months. I asked the Minister and the Post Office whether the fine of R711 000 was indeed more than what the actual licence would have cost. On both occasions I was assured that there had been no additional cost to the taxpayer. In fact, the Minister said and I quote: ``… the amount paid for the damages was equivalent to the contract’s fee.’’ However, on closer inspection, the opposite was true.

The Post Office was quoted a sum of 36 012 US dollars or R360 000, excluding VAT, for the use of the software for two years. The Post Office was fined over R700 000 for nine months’ piracy, meaning the taxpayer paid almost an incredible six times more than what they would have paid had the Post Office not broken the law. To me, giving false information in response to a parliamentary question, either intentionally or not, indicates the rot within the Post Office and the department.

The Minister also mentioned in her speech about the North West project regarding senior citizens using the post bank in accessing their pensions. What the Minister failed to mention to the House was that the cheapest tender was not used. In fact, the tender from the company which was awarded the tender was twice the amount of the cheapest tender, and the company was only formed once the tendering process had actually been closed.

From these issues and the lack of financial records, it is obvious that the Post Office and the department believe they are above the law and any form of accountability. Sadly, if one looks back at the past four years, the only conclusion one can come up with is that they are right.

If you will allow me, from the DA side we would like to wish hon member Kekana all the best in his new endeavours. You will be sorely missed. I think the level of debate here today indicates how much you will be missed. We wish you well. Bye bye. [Applause.]

Mr R D PIETERSE: Chairperson, allow me also to pass my condolences on to the family of Rudi Heine and his party. I’m sure, given the gentleman that he was, he will be sorely missed in this House. So, my condolences to them.

Daar word van ons almal verwag om saam die grense van armoede terug te stoot. Dit, agbare lede, is wat van ons almal verwag word wanneer ons aan die verskeie begrotings se besprekings deelneem. Maar voor ek daarby kom, wil ek net so … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It is expected from all of us to push back the frontiers of poverty. That, hon members, is what is expected from all of us when we participate in the discussion of the different Budget Votes. But before I come to that, I just want to …]

Hon Dene Smuts, I can only ask you to keep on dreaming, and you know that you are not allowed to dream in this House. You are supposed to take note and respond equally. So, keep on dreaming. [Interjection.] Vincent, Vincent, hon Vincent Gore, you talk about small things. Only small minds notice small things, and maybe it’s because you’re suffering from a small party syndrome where you come from. Hopefully one day, just hopefully one day, you’ll grow up.

Mr Mike Waters, I can only appeal to you because you seem to be in possession of a lot of information. You seem to have inside information. I can only appeal to you also to grow up and hand over all these relevant detailed documents to the relevant authorities for them to prosecute whoever is guilty of corruption and theft and all of that.

Hon members, I rise on behalf of the ANC to support this Budget Vote, a Budget Vote that will ensure that job creation takes place through, firstly, job retention and, secondly, skills assessment and development, but most importantly, through using IT to push back the frontiers of poverty by informing people of their rights and how to access it. As this is the month of urban and rural development in our Letsema campaign, I trust, hon Minister, that we will also be rural-biased. I am also rising to support the calls of our minor sporting codes, very often referred to as the Cinderella sports by those that run out of excuses, and which are practised by particularly women and the disabled. Banyana Banyana, as an example, is the second best soccer team in Africa, but the time shown on television is problematic. SAFA and the broadcasters allowed a golden opportunity to slip through their fingers when Banyana Banyana played against Jamaica and England, respectively. They could have played curtain-raisers to allow the continents of Africa and Europe to see the skills of our women soccer players. Yet there are excuses why they can’t play; why they can’t be shown on television.

Netball South Africa is another example - I am wearing the tracksuit - and is number five in the world. The world champions are poaching our players. Some of them are playing in Australia and some of them are playing in New Zealand, because the show time that they are being offered is inadequate. Particularly here, I am saying, the broadcast times are unsatisfactory. All the broadcasters, free-to-air and even the pay channels, should improve on their delivery in terms of women’s sports as well as the sports for the disabled.

Agbare Minister, somtyds vergeet ons dat hierdie mooi land van ons nie altyd vry was nie en dat dit soms net absoluut hel was om in te leef. Omdat ons nie toegang gehad het tot die elektroniese media nie, moes ons ons eie planne maak. Hoeveel keer, byvoorbeeld, is Bush Radio se toerusting nie deur die destydse Suid-Afrikaanse polisie gevat nie?

Soortgelyke optredes het dwarsoor die land gebeur, maar die mense was ``fed- up’’. Ons het genoeg gehad en het begin terug baklei, en in 1992 het ons die vrugte onder die ANC begin pluk en proe.

Ja, agbare lede, gemeenskapsradio het begin om uit te saai met die besonderse bystand van die ANC-geleide alliansie. Die mense het gepraat, en die ANC het gehoor en geantwoord met ‘n duidelike plan van aksie. Dus kan julle sien dat die ANC omgegee het en aan die mense gehoor gegee het, selfs voordat die ANC aan die bewind gekom het.

Kom ons kyk wat gebeur het met die gemeenskapsradio vandat die ANC in 1994 aan die bewind gekom het: Gauteng - 22 lisensies uitgereik; Limpopo - 8; Mpumalanga - 10; Noordwes - 4; Oos-Kaap - 11; Noord-Kaap - 3; Wes-Kaap - 15; Vrystaat - 10 en Kwazulu-Natal - 11. Agbare lede, soos u kan hoor, is daar meer as 94 lisensies vanaf een jaar tot vier jaar aan meer as 94 stasie uitgereik. Dadelik het ons gemeenskap toegang tot radio wat hulle nie voorheen gehad het nie.

Nadat Icasa hierdie lisensies toegestaan het, het die Departement van Kommunikasie ingetree om te verseker dat hierdie stasies nie ondergaan nie. Wat het hulle gedoen? Die Departement het die infrastruktuur vir ‘n ondersteuningsprogram begin wat aan ongeveer 42 stasies beskikbaar gestel word.

Die Departement is ook verantwoordelik vir die instelling van ‘n program-, produksie- en- ondersteuningsprojek wat kwessies soos gestremdheid, misdaad, kinders, vroue, MIV/Vigs, asook plattelandse ontwikkeling aanspreek en aan verskeie gemeenskapsradiostasies beskikbaar gestel word. Agbare lede, met hierdie feite van my, asook dié van die ander sprekers voor my, moet ons heelhartig saamstem dat die gety inderdaad gedraai het.

Daar is nogtans baie werk om te doen, en daarom wil ek ‘n beroep doen op al ons raadslede in ons verskillende munisipaliteite om ons gemeenskappe te help om aansoek te doen vir hulp en ondersteuning van die MDDA. Ons moet soveel as moontlik gemeenskapsradio’s kry in en vir ons gemeenskap. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows)

[Hon Minister, sometimes we tend to forget that many of us in this beautiful country of ours were not always free, and that at times it was utter hell to live in this country. Since we did not have access to the electronic media, we had to make our own plans. How many times, for example, did the former South African police confiscate the equipment of Bush Radio? Similar actions occurred throughout the country, but the people were fed-up with it. We had had enough of it and started to fight back; and in 1992 we started to harvest and taste the fruits under the leadership of the ANC.

Yes, hon members, community radio started to broadcast with the exceptional support from the ANC-led alliance. The people spoke, the ANC heard them and answered with a definite plan of action. You see, the ANC does care and did listen to the people, even before the ANC came to power.

Let us look at what has happened to community radio since the ANC came into power: Gauteng - 22 licences issued; Limpopo - 8; Mpumalanga - 10; North West - 4; Eastern Cape - 11; Northern Cape - 3; Western Cape - 15; Free State - 10 and KwaZulu-Natal -11. Hon members, as you heard, more than 94 licences were issued for a period from one to four years to more than 94 stations. Evidently, our community has access to radio which they did not have before.

After Icasa granted these licences, the Department of Communications got involved to ensure that these stations did not merely go down. What did they do? The department came up with the infrastructure for a support programme and made it available to more than 42 stations.

The department is also responsible for the implementation of a programme, production and support project that covers issues such as disability, crime, children, women, HIV/Aids, as well as rural development, and makes it available to several community radio stations. Hon members, with these facts stated here by me, as well as those of other speakers, we have to agree wholeheartedly - indeed, the tide has turned.

There is still a lot of work that needs to be done, and I therefore want to call on all councillors in the different municipalities to assist our communities in applying for assistance of the MDDA. We need to get as many community radio stations as possible for our communities.]

Hon members, we and Icasa have to ensure that nobody, particularly political parties, abuse community radios. Remember, the community radio is the media through which the community participates as planners, producers and performers, and gives expression of that particular community. The media, in particular the electronic media, needs to report and cover Africa as Africans. True and honest stories of Africa and Africans must be told.

Hon Minister, as we are approaching the month of the youth, I sincerely hope that we will give expression to the need of the youth to have their own dedicated youth radio station. We can and must use our community radio to report on sport that has been played in our communities.

I raised it last year, and I want to raise it again. I, Randy Pieterse, am paying my TV licence. Are you? Minister, are you paying your TV licence? Where’s Thandi Modise? Derek, are you people all paying? Only if you do that will you have a moral leg to stand on when complaining about the SABC. Forget about being elected as public representatives. We also need morality when we do tackle the problems of a public broadcaster. I’m paying mine, and I want to urge all of you to talk to your community to do the same. Then you will have a moral leg to stand on. Now, forget about the DA. They will complain anyway. Derek, no, I can’t take it now. I can’t take it now. You have to … [Interjection.] I will assist you to get your licence. Thank you. [Interjection.] But I am doing that.

Soos die beter lewe voor ons afspeel in my kiesafdeling, sê die mense met een stem: Viva ANC! Viva! En wanneer jy antwoord met ‘n Viva'' antwoord hulle dan baie harder:Long live the ANC! Long live!’’ (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

As a better life for all is evident in my constituency, all the people say with one voice: Viva ANC! Viva!'' And when one answers back with Viva!’’, they shout even louder:``Long live the ANC! Long live!’’]

Indeed, we are using broadcasting to push back the frontiers of poverty.

Allow me to thank the Minister of Communications, Minister Ivy Matsepe- Casaburri, the Director-General, Dr Andile Ncaba and his team. A special word of thanks goes to Peter Matlare and his team, the rest of the captains of industry - MTN, Vodacom, Cell C, Telkom - I’m not so sure about Telkom. They did some serious poaching. [Laughter.] Telkom, anyway. Thanks also to Sentech, the Universal Service Agency, M-Net, and, by the way, to the mobile operators. I believe that Cell C is seriously catching up. So, pull up your socks and watch it!

Bra Ned, jy is ‘n ou. Loop mooi. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows)

Bra Ned, you’re an oke. Go well.]

The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N N KEKANA: I am just feeling a sense of déja vu because, during the GCIS debate, I was bidding farewell to Parliament. However, since I am still a member of Parliament, I was again asked to say farewell in this debate, and therefore I will start my farewell by saying that the ANC supports this particular Budget Vote.

I just want to say to Dene that there is no crisis. There is no crisis either in our policies or the implementation of our policies, or in legislation. We have said many years ago that you can’t chase technology. It’s like the wind. You can’t catch the wind. It is impossible. You wouldn’t succeed. So we’ll not be able to keep up with the pace of technology. It’s like trying to keep up with thinking. You continue to think all the time.

And I think, Mr Waters, that if you point a finger like this, there are three fingers that are pointing back at you. Perhaps you need to relook at how you’ve been approaching the debate here in the House, because you can’t just rely on leaks from the Post Office. You need to be able to constructively make a contribution in as far as the solutions of our country are concerned.

You see, we need to look back with pride at the 10 years of our democracy, and we need to say that we have achieved a lot. There is still more to be done, and we need to be proud of where we come from. However, let’s not be surprised because Simon Singh observed in his book entitled the Code Book that tools of communication have always been pursued by kings, by generals, and by rulers to preside over their subjects. And thus, I agree with Comrade Lekgora that communication is a contested terrain. There are always ideological battles, and we should not expect that there will be a silence of debate in the House.

For a full text of my farewell speech, without repeating myself, let me refer people to the website of Parliament. I did my farewell speech there, and if you could access it - I hope it is there - you will get a full text of my speech.

I just want to thank everybody. Thank you to the Minister for the leadership that you have given; to the Director-General for the sterling work that you have done. Many people do not recognise the work that you have done, but history will recognise that, especially the work on skills development. I think the industry can a learn a lot from the work that you have done together with your team there.

I want to thank many of you for having been a part of my life for all this time. I thank the ANC. The ANC has brought us up, many of us. At times, it has thrown us into the deep end, but we always managed to swim to shore because of the belief that our people need to be free. I am very, very proud of having been a member of this Parliament, having been a part of you. I would like to thank you individually and collectively for the guidance and the leadership that you have shown me, and for the confidence that you have shown in me also.

I think if we work together we will achieve a lot. We, as members of Parliament, have a responsibility to promote this institution as a working institution. Our democracy can only thrive, it can only improve if we ourselves, as members of Parliament, ensure that this institution works. It is a pillar of our Constitution and, as such, we need to be proud of it. I also thank the industry for respecting Parliament, for coming to Parliament. I know that many top CEOs have come to Parliament to pay their respects, but also to make very valuable inputs from time to time. I think we need to keep up that work. It is a very good contribution to our country, and we need to continue to work together in that sense.

I am looking forward to the new challenge. I am very excited about going out there. I am not going out of the industry itself. I will remain loyal to many of the things that we have said and done. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you, Chairperson. I would really like to thank many of the members who spoke in support of this budget. Unlike the previous budgets, I was expecting quite a bit of contestation here from my left, and today there was quite a lot of support. Miskien is dit die toenadering van Suid-Afrika, ek weet nie. [Maybe it is South Africa making advances, I don’t know.]

I have to say, maybe to start with Dene, because she’s always the one that starts to sort of needle you and tease you through what she says. Dene, one thing that I learnt very early in life, not only from my parents, but also from my community is … ``Moenie krap waar dit nie jeuk nie. En dis ‘n baie goeie Afrikaanse spreekwoord. [And this is a very appropriate Afrikaans proverb.] Especially in a sector that is as fast-changing as that, you don’t go into it like a bull in a china shop. You have to look at things and decide.

On the issue around convergence and the colloquium, we spoke about it a long time ago, also in the portfolio committee. So when we read the proposal by the DA, there was nothing new they were giving us. In fact, what we were saying, is that we actually have to go out and see the experiences of other countries, and that is why the colloquium was not held in March last year, and is only being held now.

It is because of this caution that we have to make sure that we bring in as many views as possible, including the views of the DP, if they have any. I have no objection to that, but I would like to say it is important that we should perhaps have asked why that is so, despite the fact of what Gardener is saying. There have been these many bidders that came immediately after the Icasa process ended. Where were they? They are respectable bidders. So somewhere Gardener was not telling the truth, and I knew we would be proved right, and we have been proved right. So Gardener should not be the person who should guide us as to what is good for South Africa. Those investors made their decision to say South Africa is still a destination for them to make investments. [Interjections.] Well, you’ll find out soon.

I also wish to refer to contributions made by hon Van Wyk who talked about ``die gemeenskapsentrums’’ [“the community centres’’.] Veral vir mense wat uit die platteland kom, is dit baie belangrik om gemeenskapsentrums te hê. Baie mense het na die statistieke gekyk en gesê nee, die departement … [Especially for people from the rural areas, it is very important to have community centres. Many people looked at the statistics and said: No, the department …]

Statistics show that you don’t have increased - what they call - teledensity. The teledensity is going down. What they didn’t tell the people is that, as fixed lines were going down - because teledensity was measured only in terms of fixed lines - in fact, cellular telephony was going up. So you can’t just use one measure, because the services were actually provided in a very different way which was much more convenient. We have to look at the totality and not only at some.

I would like to thank the hon Susan Vos for really also reminding us about things that we sometimes forget, because as South Africans, we always want to get better and better and forget the things that we can do very well. I thank her for the compliments that she paid the management and the board and the staff of the SABC and SAPO.

It has really been very difficult to turn these ships around. They have been heavy ships, and that could not have happened without the kind of quality which you had to search for. It required saying, when you can find, that you can and when you can’t, not saying that you can’t. You eventually find them, and eventually they do a lot of good work for us. So I thank you for that.

The challenge of convergence is really going to be quite a challenge to some. ASNET has also talked about managing the contestation and the vested interests that exist. Many people do not want to change their thinking. Convergence is going to challenge each and everyone of us, from the way we used to do business and the way we used to think we should run our business, to a totally different way of doing things. It’s going to be a challenge of enormous proportions, and I think all of us ought to get ready for it.

I would also like to pull together the issues around local content that the hon Cassim and also the hon Van Wyk brought up: the issues of cultural imperialism, the books … die boeke wat nie daar is vir die tale van die mense nie, en so aan. [The books that are lacking for the languages of the people and so on.]

This is found only when we develop local content. However, this involves many of the young people who are the future, who are sitting in the gallery now. They are writing. I mean that they have language portals writing in Venda and other languages the histories of the people. That is enormous. Before long, I think, members of Parliament should make themselves knowledgeable about what those young people are doing. I think it is really indeed a great job.

Hon Gore talks about Microsoft’s offer. He doesn’t tell us that there are 2 000 schools in South Africa that do not have electricity. So, if we have to give these ones … Dan moet almal van ons wat het, gee, want dié wat nie het nie, sal nie kry nie. Hulle het nie elektrisiteit nie. [Then we who have, must give to every one who has not, because those who do not have, will not receive. They do not have electricity.]

So there is a connection between whether you have the buildings, because sometimes you have a building but not the building that … [Interjections.] But that is exactly where the roll-out of infrastructure comes in. It is not just Telkom’s infrastructure; it is also the supporting infrastructure that must bring these services in ICT. As Government we must work together.

So the focus is on this; this is why we are also looking at many of the things. And therefore, when Madam Smuts talked about African operators, etc, the Institute for Remote Services is very important in terms of doing that. So we need to be able to say there must be buildings and the promise of the digital divide collapsing. I have gone to provinces. I have moved around provinces. There are problems that many of them have that Mr Gore may not have experienced. Klein plekkies in die Vrystaat, soos Viljoenskroon, Steynrust; plasies in die Bothaville-distrik - ek weet wat die probleme is. Ek is nie blind nie. En ek weet dis waar ek my werk moet doen. [Small places in the Free State, such as Viljoenskroon, Steynrust; small farms in the Bothaville district - I know what the problems are. I am not blind. And I know this is where I have to do my work.]

So it is not a question of a government that has forgotten, but it is a Government that says when you plan, you have to plan for the future, and you must plan for the majority that does not have, and not the few that do have. For example, regarding what he said about the accreditation centre in the implementation of the ETC Act, of the people that run the Trust Centre, there are quite a number of women working there. They must be wondering what Mr Gore is really talking about. So it will be important that you actually realise this, because of the issues that we’re raising. Ek hoop jy kan lees. [I hope you can read.] Because they were reading test sites.

However, with regard to many of the other things, I think it is important that we look at them. For example, Mr Cassim has said we must look at the issues around spam. Indeed, the computer virus monitoring centre, which is also run by many of these young people and even the telecommunications, especially cellular companies, have asked why they should all run virus monitoring. If you can do it, why don’t you rather do it for us and we pay you, etc? Indeed, there is work that is being done. Some of the young people who do that work are here. En baie van hulle lyk soos ek wat die kleur betref.[And many of them look like me as far as colour goes.] [Interjections.] That is good. We’re going to be quite surprising.

Well, there were certain things or facts that I will not go over, because I think it is important that we actually educate ourselves about a number of things that we have been talking about. I thank all the members who have been supportive of this Bill, and I think indeed we have a future.

At the beginning, I said the Government of this country knows where we come from. We have no intention of going back there. We know where we are going, and we ask you to imagine what the future would look like if we armed ourselves with these new technologies and used them to make a difference in our people’s lives. I talked about what happened nine years ago, what we looked like.

But now, I would indeed like to use the words of Ntate Sisulu:

We can make this revolution one of the greatest, for indeed we have a country of remarkable people who are ready, who are willing and able to make this country an even more remarkable place, and to do so with the use of these new technologies.]

I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

PROTECTING AND DEFENDING CHILDREN’S RIGHTS IN SOCIETY AND CALLING FOR AN END TO CHILD ABUSE (Subject for Discussion)

Mr E SALOOJEE: Madam Speaker, hon members, the idea of an international children’s day arose from the 1925 World Conference for the Wellbeing of Children in Geneva, Switzerland. This conference was attended by 54 countries and passed the Geneva Declaration protecting children.

The world has come a long way since 1925, but the day is still celebrated in many countries around the world and is meant to be a day of celebrating the potential of our children. In South Africa we choose to celebrate this day in many ways, but the central theme to be gleaned from the very first celebration remains the same: the protection of our children. In other words, what are we as the Government of this country doing to protect the rights and wellbeing of our children?

This obligation is clearly illustrated by the words of Carol Bellamy, the executive director of Unicef, that the interests of the child shall be a consideration in all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies.

Among the key obligations that we have in terms of international treaties, is to adopt legislation that will effectively promote children’s rights and wellbeing. Members of this Assembly have been involved in detailed work around a new children’s statute since 1996. As has been the experience elsewhere, it is an enormous undertaking, and given the importance of such legislation, one has to acknowledge that such legislation cannot be rushed through the Assembly.

We are proud that the work has advanced to such an extent that there is a draft Bill that is being discussed widely. I would like to reflect briefly on some of the critical issues addressed in the draft. I must say that in the history of children’s legislation, this is the very first time that you’re going to have a comprehensive Bill.

We have a world-class Constitution and this draft Bill gives expression to the constitutional rights of children and then goes on to make proposals around what services must be put in place for those rights to be realised. So for the first time in our history, the legislative framework will be focused on enabling the child to prosper in the context of his or her family.

The Bill moves away from the narrow focus of the Child Care Act on formal protective measures, and outlines the kind of preventative service that would aim at protecting vulnerable children before they need to be removed from their family and environment because of abuse or neglect.

I believe that the issue of children’s socioeconomic rights will be a very difficult issue to deal with because of the enormous resource implications of providing the most vulnerable children with access to adequate nutrition, shelter, basic health care, educational opportunities and social assistance. However, the debates will be exciting and I believe that we will make the right decisions for our children.

Other pieces of legislation that will impact significantly on the lives of children in South Africa are the Social Assistance Bill and the National Social Security Agency Bill. The Social Assistance Bill proposes to address problems with regard to the delivery of social grants, such as low take-up rates and delays in the approval and payment of grants. Should this Bill succeed in all that it sets out to do, this will significantly improve the lives of all the children of our country.

The establishment of a national agency responsible for the payment of social security grants has been suggested as one of the ways in which the administration of this system can be improved. Such an agency can have a profound impact on children, and the Department of Social Development, the Portfolio Committee on Social Development and civil society organisations are engaging each other as to the best and most effective ways that the agency can serve our children.

In order to improve the protection we offer children in South Africa, the Government has mainstreamed children’s needs in the budgets of a number of key Government departments. We have made significant improvements in the health and education systems, ensured housing for millions of families and extended social assistance benefits to at least 2,7 million children by way of the child support grant.

The significance of the child support grant lies in the fact that it was the first social assistance measure that sought to bring equity to the manner in which state benefits are made available to poor children. In line with our President’s 8 January statement, in which he said that we must use the state budget to improve the lives of the poor, Government has this year approved the gradual extension of the means-tested child support grant beyond the age of six to poor children up to their 14th birthday. The extension will take place in a phased manner over three years.

The extension of the age cohort has been widely welcomed as another indication of our Government’s continued commitment to improving the lives of all our children. It is also a significant step in addressing the crippling poverty that we have inherited.

Let me now address the question of children who have been orphaned as a result of HIV/Aids and the increase in the number of child-headed households. The Nelson Mandela Foundation and Human Sciences Research Council’s research work on HIV/Aids last year suggests that 13% of our children have lost one or both their parents due to the pandemic. At least 3% of these households are headed by children.

We must acknowledge that there are some shortcomings in the protective measures for such children. The Social Assistance Act, Act 59 of 1992, provides that only persons older than 18 may access a grant on behalf of a child. If the eldest sibling in a child-headed household is younger than 18, that household will not be able to apply for any grants of any kind because there is no adult in the household to formally receive the grant.

Despite popular opposition rhetoric, we are not simply ignoring this situation. The draft children’s Bill contains some proposals around caring for child-headed households. The most notable proposal relevant to this discussion is the introduction of a cluster foster care system in communities where there are large numbers of children without parental care and support.

The Bill envisages a system in which adult supervisors are appointed for each of the child-headed households in the community. Such a supervisor should be able to apply for child support grants and other social benefits on the children’s behalf, and advise the children on how best to access services or utilise benefits.

This person will have to be accountable to the community and to Government, perhaps by way of a community-based organisation, a church structure, or through the presence of a community development worker. There has been the suggestion that while improvements to the social assistance system are taking place, it might be appropriate to locate provisions for child-headed households directly in the Social Assistance Act. I believe that it is crucial for us to make a clear policy decision about this and to table that legislation as soon as possible.

It has become a sad reality in our society that we encounter horrific stories about the emotional, physical and sexual abuse of children on a frequent, almost daily basis. In order to focus on one of the most heinous crimes against children, namely sexual abuse, as you all know, a parliamentary task group on the sexual abuse of children was convened last year.

Significant recommendations were made in the report of the task team on sexual offences against children, and I’d like to highlight a few of them. Firstly, we need to strengthen legislation to protect children, including defining sexual abuse as a distinct form of abuse that requires a direct response from Government and society. The work that the SA Law Commission is doing around the new children’s Act is dealing with this substantially. Secondly, we need to ensure an integrated response from Government agencies working with children by considering for inclusion in the new children’s legislation a basic basket of preventative and protective services that Government must make available. Thirdly, we need to strengthen the criminal justice system to protect children and prevent abuse, and fourthly, we need to raise community awareness of the effects of abuse on children and the services available to assist in the protection of children.

I must also state here that all those Government departments that are involved in the process around the whole issue of the sexual abuse of children, after the recommendation in terms of the briefings that we’ve had, have made substantial advances in the way of implementing those recommendations.

Let me state that we have not betrayed and do not intend to betray our children. Several of the recommendations of the task team have been translated into concrete measures by Government departments. The Department of Social Development has reported that a draft strategy on child protection has been completed. The department is currently consulting stakeholders around this policy document.

In addition, the national policy guidelines for handling victims or survivors of sexual abuse were produced under the direction of the Deputy Minister of Justice in September 1998. In July 2002, the Gender Directorate reprinted 650 copies of policy guidelines, which were distributed to all magistrates. The guidelines include the requirement of the use of technical aids, such as one-way mirrors and closed-circuit television to insulate children from secondary traumatisation through contact with alleged perpetrators. In addition, an interdepartmental task team has also been established to implement national strategy for the roll-out of sexual offences courts. Twenty-nine sexual offences courts have already been established in crisis areas, although some of them are not fully compliant with the sexual offences courts blueprint yet. A number of courts have been dedicated or are in the process of being dedicated to the hearing of sexual offences cases.

The Justice College has also reported that court personnel receive training on how to deal with victims of sexual violence. This training is ongoing and specialised courts have been established to adjudicate such cases. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M WATERS: Chair, hon Deputy Minister, this is the fourth debate on child abuse that this House is engaging in in about one year. If all the hot air talked here by the ANC was actually matched by action on the ground, I would welcome a debate per day. Sadly, the truth is quite the opposite. Since the start of my visits to the 45 child protection units, some six months ago, an estimated 13 594 children have suffered rape or attempted rape; 12 908 children have been assaulted; 9 756 children have been assaulted with the intent to do grievous bodily harm; 2 640 children have been indecently assaulted; and 792 children have been murdered - roughly four murders per day.

I believe that in these six months, 128 additional officers have been placed at the CPUs. However, since there was at least 693 vacant positions, this means that 565 child protection officers are still needed at the existing CPUs. What is more, is that there are areas in the country that do not have such units whatsoever. If you divide the 120 officers amongst the 45 units, it works out to just fewer than three new recruits per unit. If one looks at the Mitchells Plain CPU, for example, which has a shortage of 85 members, it could take 29 years or until 2032 before the current optimum levels are reached if the Government continues at this slow pace. The DA finds this totally unacceptable and, quite frankly, an insult to the children of our country. My niece, your daughter, your son and our grandchildren deserve better than that.

Another aspect that the DA will not tolerate is the lack of training. If, as we often hear from the ANC, child abuse is considered a priority crime, why then have only 47% of all CPU officers been trained in child protection? Surely, given the nature and sensitivity of these crimes, the Government would have ensured that a child’s first line of defence was impeccable. The question must be asked: If innocent children are not protected by the criminal justice system, can we really expect the justice system to protect other citizens?

Dr E E JASSAT: What are you doing?

Mr M WATERS: I have been to all the units. That is what I have been doing, hon member. [Interjections.] I have come back and given my findings here. I have done more than your Minister and your entire committee. [Interjections.]

What is worse is that this is not the only area in which we betray our children. The Minister of Social Development admitted in this House that there is a shortage of 1 400 social workers. That is a shocking indictment of how this Government perceives child-related matters. How on earth does a Minister allow a situation to collapse to such an extent?

The Minister of Health admitted in this House that only 128 state doctors have received training on how to use the new kits which are used to collect DNA evidence, evidence which is vital in obtaining convictions. Logic states that before any new system is introduced into any organisation, the people affected must be trained. This again highlights the ANC’s lack of commitment to the children of our country. In addition, on 7 March, I sent documentary proof to the Minister of Health regarding doctors who refuse to examine children after they have been raped. The Minister is yet to have a meeting to discuss the dire situation.

The Minister of Safety and Security also admitted that as far as forensic scientists at the DNA laboratories were concerned, there were 413 vacant positions. Those men and women analyse crucial evidence for the courts. It is they who often determine whether a person will get away with rape and abuse or if he/she will be put behind bars.

The lack of CPUs in the Western Cape and Free State is of grave concern to the DA as each of these provinces have only two units. Both Western Cape units are situated within the metro. That leaves the children of the Boland and the southern region defenceless as they have to report crimes to the local police stations which in many instances do not have trained officers in child abuse. The Goodwood unit which has a staff shortage of 73% has since 1992 been unable to investigate all crimes committed against children in their area, and the Mitchells Plain unit has had a shortage of 82% since

1. How long does this Government need in order to address these imbalances? I ask you, hon members, does this situation reflect an attitude of a Government that cares? Is this really the people’s party at work? Not even the ANC, in all honesty, can answer: Yes. Thank you. [Applause.]

Nksz M XULU: Sihlalo namalungu ahloniphekile, njengabantu abadala, izingane nazo zinamalungelo okuphila impilo enokuthula, ephephile, engenabungozi kanye nevikelekile ukuze nazo zikwazi ukukhula kahle ngendlela efanele futhi zifeze amaphupho azo empilweni. Okubuhlungu ukuthi iningi lezingane ezweni lakithi alikutholi lokho kuvikeleka. Izingane zethu zihlangabezana nezinhlobonhlobo zezingqinamba ekukhuleni kwazo ngenxa yokuphila ngaphansi kwezimo ezingaphephile nezingakuhlinzekile ukuqashelwa kwamalungelo azo.

Iningi lezingane likhula emakhaya lapho udlame kuyisinkwa semihla ngemihla okwenza ingane igcine isicabanga ukuthi iyona ndlela yokuphila leyo. Ingane ihamba nalowo mkhuba iye nawo esikoleni lapho ifike nakhona ihlangabezane nolwakhona udlame olwenzeka phakathi kwabafundi njalo nothisha. Kuleli viki esiphuma kulo kube nezigameko eziningana zokuhlaselana kwezingane ezikoleni okunye kwakho okube nemiphumela yokuphuma kwemiphefumulo. Izingane zethu zitholakala nezikhali eziyingozi nazo ziphuma kubazali.

Kweminye imiphakathi izingane ezineminyaka esuka kweyisikhombisa zisetshenziswa yimigulukudu emsebenzini yazo yokukhohlakala ngoba yazi kahle ukuthi lezo zingane zisencane, uma zibanjwa zizonikwa izigwebo ezincane. Abantwana baphila ngaphansi kwesimo esibucayi ngenxa yale migulukudu njengoba kuyibona futhi abathola amachaphazelo kuqala. Ngenxa yezimpi zale migulukudu ezenzeka imihla namalanga emigwaqeni abantwana abasakwazi ngisho nokudlala emagcekeni emakhaya ngenxa yokwesabela izimpilo zabo. Zonke lezi zinto ziyazihlukumeza izingane emoyeni nasemqondweni okwenza zihluleke ukukhula kahle njengabantwana abanomqondo ophelele nabanozwelo lwabanye abantu.

Ezweni lakithi ingane eyodwa yentombazane kwamane neyodwa yomfana kwabayisishiyagalombili zithola ukuhlukunyezwa ngaphambi kokuthi zihlanganise iminyaka eyishumi nesithupha. Siyazi sonke ukuthi alishoni ilanga kungabanga nesigameko sokuhlukunyezwa ngandlela thize kwengane kuleli zwe lakithi. Esikhathini esiningi abenzi bobubi yizihlobo noma kube abantu abaziwayo zingane futhi abangomakhelwane. Kuba nzima kakhulu ezinganeni ukuhlukunyezwa umuntu ezimkhonzile noma ezimhloniphayo futhi yikho okuqeda ithemba ezinganeni ngabantu abadala abasondelene nazo.

Ezinye izinselelo izingane zethu ezibhekene nazo ububha kanye nokufa okukhona - iNgculazi. Lesi sifo sesishiye iningi lezingane ezweni zizintandane okwenza ukuthi iningi lazo libhekane nomsebenzi wokuzikhulisa zona qobo, kuthi ezinye zibhekane nenselelo yokunakekela abazali abagulayo kanye nozakwabo abancane. Lokhu kuyazihlukumeza izingane njengoba nazo zisuke zisakhula futhi kufanele zithole ukukhuliswa nokunakekelwa emqondeni nasemzimbeni ukuze nazo zikwazi ukubhekana nempilo ebudaleni bazo. Lesi simo sokulahlekelwa abazali nokugula kwabazali bengasakwazi ukusebenza kuletha inhlupheko engumangaliso emakhaya futhi kuyikhinyabeza kakhulu intuthuko yezingane.

UHulumeni siyambonga ngemizamo yakhe yokulwisana nokuphathwa kabi kwezingane kanye nokubhekela izingane ngezinhlelo zakhe ezifana no-child support grant. Yize uHulumeni ezama kangaka kusekuningi lapho engafinyeleli khona, njengakulezo zingane ezingakwazi ukuthola le mali zibe zisenabo abazali kodwa abangasakwazi ukusebenza ngenxa yezimo ezithile, nalezo esingasakwazi ukuhlangabezana nazo ngenxa yeminyaka engaphezulu. Yizona kanye lezo zingane ezigcina zihehwe yimigulukudu ezenzisa yonke imikhuba futhi izethembise imali ukuze zikwazi ukondla amakhaya.

Abanye baxhashazwa zihlobo kanti abanye ngabaqashi ngenxa yokuthi bayahlupheka, bazingane futhi abanamuntu ongabalwela mayelana namalungelo abo. Okubalulekile ukuthi yize uHulumeni wethu ezama kangaka futhi kubekwe nemithetho yokuvikela amalungelo ezingane, inselelo esibhekene nayo njengesizwe futhi enkulu kakhulu ngeyokuba kungacatshangwa ukuthi uHulumeni nguye yedwa ongaxazulula le nkinga. Ukuvikeleka kwamalungelo ezingane kungumsebenzi wethu sonke, kusukela kithi njengamalungu ale Ndlu kanye nesizwe sonkana. Sekufike isikhathi lapho thina bantu balapha eNingizimu Afrika kufanele kungene kugxile ezinhliziyweni zethu ukuthi izingane nazo zingabantu njengathi.

Okokugcina, sithi yingakho iNkatha yeNkululeko yayifundisa abantu ubuntu botho ukuze abantu babuyele emasikweni abo. Ngakho-ke iNkatha iyayeseka le nkulumo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Miss M XULU: Chairperson and hon members, like adults, children also have a right to live a peaceful, safe, secure and protected life so that they can grow up in a proper manner and fulfil their dreams in life. What is painful is that the majority of children in our country do not have access to that protection. Our children encounter numerous problems while growing up because they live in an unsafe environment which is not conducive to the observance of children’s rights.

Most children grow up in homes where violence is the staple diet, so much so that a child may end up thinking that that is an acceptable way to live. A child internalises such behaviour and takes it to school, where he or she encounters another type of violence between students and teachers. This past week there were a number of incidents in which children attacked one another in schools, and one such attack resulted in the loss of a life. Our children carry dangerous weapons which they get from parents.

In other communities children from the age of seven years and upwards are used by gangsters in their corrupt activities because they know very well that since those children are young, they will be given light sentences if they are caught. Children live in a precarious state because of these gangsters, since it’s the children who suffer first from criminal acts. Because of the daily street fights of these gangsters, children can no longer play in their own backyards because their lives are at risk. All these things violate children psychologically and emotionally, and that makes them fail to grow up as individuals with sound minds, individuals who are sensitive towards other people.

In our country, one in four girls and one in eight boys are abused before they reach the age of 16 years. We all know that hardly a day goes by without an incident of child abuse in our country. In most cases the abusers are relatives or people who are known to children, such as neighbours. It is very stressful to children to be abused by someone they like and respect, and this leads children to lose all hope regarding the adults who are close to them.

Other challenges faced by our children are poverty and the devastating disease Aids. This disease has left many orphaned children, most of whom face the responsibility of having to look after themselves, while others face the challenge of looking after sick parents and younger siblings. Having these responsibilities thrust upon them disturbs children, since they themselves are still growing up and need someone who will attend to their physical and psychological development so as to enable them to face life as adults. This situation of losing parents, and that of having sick parents, which makes them unable to work, brings with it immeasurable suffering to families, and this severely disrupts the development of a child.

We commend the Government for its efforts to combat the maltreatment of children through programmes such as child support grants. Though the Government tries to do so much, there are still many areas that it is unable to reach. For example, there are those children who cannot access grants because their parents are alive while they are unable to work due to certain circumstances, and those children who cannot be accommodated in such programmes because their ages are over the stipulated limit. Those are the very same children who end up being enticed by gangsters. The gangsters make them engage in all sorts of misbehaviour and promise them money which they can use to support their families.

Other children are exploited by their relatives, while others still are exploited by employers because they are poor, they are young and they do not have anyone who can fight for their rights. What is of the utmost importance is that even though our Government is doing so much, and there are laws which protect the rights of children, the major challenge that we face as a nation is that Government should not be seen as the one and only party that can solve this problem. We are all responsible for the protection of the rights of children, from the members of this House to the nation as a whole. The time has come for us South Africans to internalise deep down in our hearts that children are human beings like the rest of us. Lastly, we say that those are the reasons why iNkatha yeNkululeko taught values of ubunto botho so that people could return to their customs. The IFP therefore supports this debate. I thank you.]

Prof L M MBADI: Chairperson, the scourge of child and women abuse afflicts our society. As a country we are going through a transition, having emerged from a social milieu in which we could not make free choices and shape an ideal environment of our choice in which we could develop social and moral values that would sustain a moral society. In building a new South African society that will be devoid of the moral and social aberrations that plague us today, we need to know where we come from and where we are going. The value systems that sustained our forebears, before external colonial intervention and the resultant social disruption, should be our landmark and point of departure.

A traditional African homestead is a cosy, warm, protective shrine for the African child. He is nurtured in love in an orderly life regulated by the family head, the mother and the elder siblings within the extended family, the clan and the tribe as a whole. At the moment of birth, he is ushered into the warm cloister of the traditional midwives in the maternity hut where he begins his life’s journey. A libation goat is slaughtered in welcome and thanksgiving. He is enshrouded in an atmosphere and aura of love and warmth. He emerges from this mystique cloister into the warm welcoming hands of the family members and the extended family. Appropriate rituals are performed and more libations made to prepare and fortify the child for the journey of growing ahead.

He stumbles the first tentative steps and grows into a spirited little urchin who can now begin appropriate apprenticeship in the designated chores of tending the calves and goat kids if he is a boy, or assist mama in preparing and washing the dishes if she is a girl. The boy graduates to heading larger herds in the company of his peers and learns the skills of self-defence and survival in the veld. The girl advances to gathering firewood, tending the crops in the fields, emulating the role of the mother in keeping the home fires burning.

All this takes place in a social framework regulated by norms, customs and value systems which underscore respect for elders and cordial, friendly respectful interaction with peers. These are responsibilities, rights and obligations in their network of relations. There are rewards for excellence and sanctions for deviation from acceptable conduct. There is stability and equilibrium in which well balanced and socially adjusted caring children are raised and prepared to take their rightful place in the community.

The boys grow up to become men and girls to become women. They both go through their initiation rituals, namely circumcision for the boys and intonjane or another accepted initiation for the girls. We must caution against value judgments in this regard because such value interpretations may be misguided if taken out of context by judging outsiders. At the same time, we must allow the need for adjustment and modification in a changing and modernising society to obviate distortions of customary practices if mechanically applied, which often leads to abuse and tragedy. The entire exercise is designed to prepare young adults to assume their responsibilities and play their role in the community.

The central theme in African socialisation is nurturing ubuntu, humanness. This concept entails doing good to others and fostering the spirit of goodness and humanness. Respect for your peers, for your neighbours and strangers alike are instilled. Children must respect their elders. Every elder is your mother or father, every child is a son or daughter in the community which is bound together by a uniform system of values. Chastising any deviant child by a parent is obligatory and it is not frowned upon as child abuse.

According to Muslim tradition, immediately upon delivery, after the severance of the umbilical cord and after the new-born baby has bathed, a senior male member of the family, preferably the father, gives the Azaan, the Muslim call to prayer, in the ears of the new-born. The mother is then expected to remain indoors for at least 40 days. The baby and the mother may after 40 days go outdoors, but during its infancy, the mother is expected to take care that both of them do not spend too many hours outdoors in the evenings.

Prior to the social disruption occasioned by the external colonial intervention in African societies, there was a strict code of conduct regulating the relations between young men and women. Social and physical contact occurred within a well defined set of rules and parameters which castigated promiscuity as a social and moral aberration. Any departure from the prescribed limits of physical contact between young men and women, if it in any way attempted or threatened to violate the honour of a young maiden, was judged and punished harshly with heavy penalties. This deterred the incidences of premarital pregnancies, with all the social ills that come with it.

Similarly, sexually transmitted diseases were either unknown or very rare. I am trying to depict a picture of a traditional African environment, with its behavioural norms, checks and balances that regulated the conduct of members of the traditional communities and minimised the opportunities for child abuse.

This House is all too familiar with the tragedy of colonialism. The consequences of conquest and the imposition of an alien social and cultural system of African societies disintegrated the social fabric which sustained the values described above. The disruption caused by deindustrialisation, where men were forcibly dislocated from their homes and society and forced to live in abnormal crammed bachelor quarters away from their families, demonised them and eroded their self-respect.

They were herded together like cattle and were treated as no more than mere boys and tools with which to burrow the bowels of the earth in search of precious stones for the masters. On the farms they were frequently humiliated, insulted and whipped until they began to accept their new status as irresponsible boys who should submit to the punishment by their masters.

The cruel and dehumanising subjugation has had a tragic impact on the African soul. We are therefore faced with the challenges of salvaging our ancient values, preserving those that are timeless and weaving them into the fabric of our modern society. We must reconcile the old with the new in the changing world. Naturally we will discard the antiquated and unsuitable practices.

Our choices must be objective and the yardstick for their applicability or otherwise. We cannot afford to be mechanical in our choices. Neither can we afford to be dogmatic or allow prudences to colour our judgement. What we need is a healthy synthesis of the old and the new, which will form the moral and social foundation of a new South Africa.

The demise of traditional African societies has resulted in the collapse of our moral values. The Government, under the leadership of the Deputy President, has sounded the clarion call for moral regeneration. As already indicated, in times of crises, nations dig up their past; resuscitate their nation’s heroic deeds; they recreate their heroes and heroines and they extol their best values which sustained preceding generations. The hour has come for us do the same. While we cannot restore the past, we can refashion the present, borrowing from the past and being inspired by its achievements.

Poverty eradication is central to the creation of an environment in which child abuse cannot thrive. It is commmon knowledge that the degradation of poverty, characterised by hunger and squalid living conditions, exacerbate moral decay. Child abuse abounds in these subhuman conditions. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, in a press release by the Minister of Social Development on 22 May, he stated:

Child Protection Week should serve as a period in which all of us rededicate ourselves to building a better life for all our children. Child protection must be everybody’s business. We need to protect our children from all forms of abuse, vulnerability like poverty and the HIV/Aids pandemic.

These are very nice words, and I know that the Minister is very serious about the protection of every child in this country.

However, as far back as 16 June 1995, the South African Government ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and the Cabinet reaffirmed its commitment to the legal instruments that were put in place on 15 May

1. During August 2002 the Portfolio Committee on Social Development approved and adopted the Optional Protocol on the Rights of the Child. This protocol has not yet been signed, so how serious are we in our efforts to become a world partner in the fight against child abuse?

As there is a significant increase in the international trafficking in children for the purpose of selling, child prostitution and child pornography, it is essential that a wide network of countries should be part of an effort to eradicate these despicable acts against children.

There is a wide variety of factors contributing to these despicable practices, such as a lack of education, urban-rural migration, gender discrimination, irresponsible adult sexual behaviour, harmful traditional practices, armed conflicts and trafficking in children.

The New NP believes that there should be a stronger world-wide calling for the criminalisation of the production, distribution, exportation, intentional possession and advertising of child pornography, and stressing the importance of closer co-operation and partnership between governments and the Internet industry.

This protocol will really contribute to the implementation of those steps that will provide a better life for all children, not only our South African children, but children all over the world.

The New NP wants to urge the Minister of Foreign Affairs - because this is where it is now being held up - to make a serious attempt to support the Minister of Social Development and the committee, and the world-wide campaign against the atrocities against the child and finalise that matter immediately.

Voorsitter, dit het tyd geword dat elkeen van ons nie net sal praat nie, maar sal stilsit en luister na die geroep, die aanklag en die waarskuwing van die kind in nood. Amanda Strydom het ‘n lied geskryf, genaamd ``Gees van die kind’’:

Jy fassineer my Hipnotiseer my Jy bekeer my Laat my doop Manipuleer my Motiveer my Orkestreer my Gee my hoop Iemand moet die kettings breek, iemand moet die brug oorsteek Iemand moet die slang vermoor, sy kop met duisend dolke boor Ek sal opstaan Konfiskeer my Verrinneweer my Terroriseer my Gee my stroop Molesteer my Onteer my Impliseer my Die deur is oop Jy kan doen wat jy wil; ek is hier om te bly Ek is die gees van elke kind wat op die aarde ly Jy kan my nie ignoreer nie; jy sal dit voel wanneer ek skree Jy sal betaal vir jou vergryping tot die berge antwoord gee Ek is die gees van elke kind Ek gaan groot word Ek gaan slim word Ek gaan sterk word Hou my dop Ek gaan opkrop Ek gaan vreemd word Ek gaan kwaad word En dan ontplof.

Voorsitter, dit het tyd geword dat iemand die kettings breek, die brug oorsteek; dat iemand die slang vermoor en die kop met ‘n duisend dolke boor vir die kinders van Suid-Afrika. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, the time has come for each one of us not only to talk, but to sit still and to listen to the call, the accusation and the warning of the child in distress. Amanda Strydom wrote a song entitled ``Gees van die kind’’.] Jy fassineer my Hipnotiseer my Jy bekeer my Laat my doop Manipuleer my Motiveer my Orkestreer my Gee my hoop Iemand moet die kettings breek, iemand moet die brug ooorsteek Iemand moet die slang vermoor, sy kop met duisend dolke boor Ek sal opstaan Konfiskeer my Verrinneweer my Terroriseer my Gee my stroop Molesteer my Onteer my Impliseer my Die deur is oop Jy kan doen wat jy wil; ek is hier om te bly Ek is die gees van elke kind wat op die aarde ly Jy kan my nie ignoreer nie; jy sal dit voel wanneer ek skree Jy sal betaal vir jou vergryping tot die berge antwoord gee Ek is die gees van elke kind Ek gaan groot word Ek gaan slim word Ek gaan sterk word Hou my dop Ek gaan opkrop Ek gaan vreemd word Ek gaan kwaad word En dan ontplof.

[Chairperson, the time has come for someone to break the chains, to cross the bridge; for someone to kill the snake and slash the head with a thousand daggers for the children of South Africa. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Ms N C NKABINDE: Chairperson and hon members, the findings by the SA Congress for Early Childhood Development reveal that almost two million South African children are battling with hunger every day. The UCT Children’s Institute estimates that 11 million children, more than half of all South African children, were living in poverty in 2002.

South Africa commemorates Child Protection Week while the Government has failed to meet promises it made last year during National Children’s Day, namely to protect and improve the lives of children. Child Protection Week is just lip service unless Government recommits itself to a country fit for children and ensures that they are put first, that they have access to education, are protected from harm and exploitation, poverty is eradicated and HIV/Aids is combated.

In the Eastern Cape alone hundreds of children are admitted daily to hospitals with malnutrition and a significant number die of marasmus, an avoidable condition caused by a lack of calories and protein. It is evident that in some provinces people are unable to get child support grants because of problems in obtaining ID documents. The high rate of unemployment that is silently observed by the Government contributes tremendously to the suffering of the children. As for the Growth and Development Summit, a good test of its success would be to ask afterwards: How many of these 2 million children won’t be going to bed hungry anymore?

Sadly, until now Government has failed to act on the findings of the children’s rights organisation, Molo Songololo. The findings indicate that in one of Cape Town’s major townships, child sex exploitation, rape, abuse and child prostitution have reached alarming proportions. The inability of the Police Child Protection Unit to cope with about 3 000 cases of crime against children reported each month because they are understaffed makes one wonder whether the Government is sincere with its theme of ``Child Protection is Everyone’s Business’’. Is this, as is the case with unemployment, the ANC Government’s way of saying: It is the responsibility of everybody, except Government?

Ms N M TSHEOLE: Chairperson, hon members, this debate offers us an opportunity to reflect, to introspect, to acknowledge inadequacies and challenges, and to chart a way forward.

I hope the House shall, after today’s debate, emerge with recommendations that can assist those directly tasked with the actual protection of children, and not just indicate weaknesses, but come up with suggestions. This is why we are here.

To dedicate this debate to the protection of children is not to add salt to an open wound, but it is to create hope for these children that something will be done. What we are saying is what the children are feeling. Tell them what you think should be done, and do not repeat their pain, because you are making the pain worse. [Applause.] By merely indicating how many children are still living in poverty you are not helping. This is a known figure, and I do not know how many times it has been repeated this week. [Interjections.]

I listened to what they are saying. Weaknessess and inadequacies cannot be denied. Through the fact that we are here to discuss and debate, we acknowledge those weaknesses, and we want to say something and give hope to those children and not destroy their hope.

Child protection broadly implies not only abuse, but also covers poverty, neglect, exposure, crime, drug addiction and illness. It is a very broad concept. And when one looks at this, it cannot, as Mr Van Jaarsveld said, be the responsibility of the state only. It has to be a partnership. Communities have to play their role.

Hon Saloojee referred to what the Government has put in place to address the challenges. Inadequacies might be there, but when we look at inadequacies, most of them are as a result of the lack of joint participation of families. Hon Mbadi also laid a foundation for us by referring us to the traditional way of bringing up children, not only to say we should go back, but to look at those values that could assist us. We should be identifying issues that could assist us in alleviating the issues, not only looking at Government. When we emphasise the role of Government at the expense of the role of families, we are dragging communities backwards. We are saying communities themselves should not do anything, but that only the Government is there to do something for the communities. We are saying this, knowing well that our communities have suffered long periods of poverty, and I am going to quote Mankin here in indicating the role of a history of poverty in a community:

A recession can have permanent effects if it changes the people who become unemployed … a long period of unemployment may change an individual’s attitude towards work and reduce his desire to find employment.

This is a situation that we find most of our families in. We are quoting this, not to justify the inabilities of families to look after their children, but to indicate to members of the opposition that the issues faced by this Government did not start in 1992 or in 1994. There has been a deliberate attempt by the apartheid government to engineer a period of hysteria to ensure that people are not able to do anything for themselves.

Some of the people, even if there are jobs, are not qualified, and they cannot do the jobs. We find that Government has to deal with vulnerable families. We are talking about many vulnerable families, and the vulnerability did not start in 1994. It is a long process and it is going to take long to change, but we find the problem of the protection of children is not only among poor families, it even occurs in well-to-do families.

Just yesterday an hon member from the DA asked a follow-up question to the Minister indicating the challenges that are faced by middle-class families who give a lot of cash to their children, and as a result the children have access to drugs. These are not challenges which the Government has to deal with. It is the responsibility of families. Let us not just concentrate on challenges facing poor families.

The issue of child drug abuse is widespread. It attacks rich families mainly. It attacks mainly rich families. When we come to drug addiction, it is mainly children who have access to cash and who are not from poor families. These well-to-do children have parents who are in denial. They are not prepared to address the issue but blame the state. They will talk of the drug authority, but they will never say what they as a family do about it.

The other issue that we find is the issue of crime. You will find that it is not only with regard to poverty, but it is the morale of the family unit which is not playing its role. Let us not just look at it. We are representatives. Let us talk to our communities and the people whom we represent and say: Let us do something. Let us not just look at Government to do something for us.

When we look at guns, it is those families who are rich who can afford guns, and they are negligent. The parents allow their children to get access to guns, and it is these children who traumatise other kids and who kill teachers and other children at school. What are we doing as families? Are we saying that the Government has to police every family to indicate to every parent how much cash he or she must give to their children when they have money? We are not. What we come back to is to say: Children are in prison and the Government is not doing anything. Are we doing enough as families? Let alone those families, the Government’s responsibility is to look after vulnerable families; not after negligent parents.

Another issue is that of ubuntu that the hon Mbadi referred to. We find that, unfortunately, we have moved away from the cultural issue of ubuntu. The Moral Regeneration Programme, under the leadership of the Deputy President, is trying to bring that back. We hope it will succeed and, at the same time, we know there is an attack. Somebody asked a question last week, and asked why we wanted to create structures instead of looking at it, and at the same time, we are looking at the Government; the Government must regenerate our morale.

What are we doing as families? Are we reneging on our responsibilities as parents? Do we blame the Government? Is that what we want to do? Are we going to say to the electorate: We are in Parliament. The Government is not doing enough, so relax. Let your children be criminals. Let your children steal. Are we not going to encourage families to do something to attack poverty? Are we not going to educate families to grow vegetable gardens? In the past we used to have subsistence farming. There have been a lot of changes which affected the fibre of the family to move away from subsistence farming, because people were made to believe that you were a better person when you were wearing a tie. We know the white communities are the farmers who provide our food and they do not wear ties. People were made to believe that you are better when you are employed in an office and wearing a tie. People shifted away from subsistence farming. There could be other challenges like climatic conditions, but I think there is still something that we as representatives could do to educate our families to do and ensure that they protect their children against illness and poverty so that when the Government puts into place programmes, they are successful.

The impact of Government programmes will not be felt as long as families are just sitting there and expecting the Government to do everything for them. We as representatives should do the responsible thing. There are shortcomings, but programmes are in place and this is not an overnight thing. It is a process, changing the minds of the nation. It will not happen overnight. It is going to happen perhaps to your children, but you are already a part of that. You had better do something with your children and not look at us. [Time expired.][Applause.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, this is a very serious debate whose importance is underlined by Jesus in Mark 10, verse 13, when he said: ``Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them’’. Earlier in Mark 4, verse 42, he says and I quote:

If anyone causes one of these little children to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

The responsibility of adults and parents for the wellbeing of children is very clear. Children in human society are helpless and weak when they are born. They depend on adults for their entire moral education and upbringing. The UN Charter, as well as our excellent Constitution emphasise children’s rights and their entitlement to upbringing, education, health, shelter, food and so on. As Parliament, we take our cue from there and must assume our responsibility in passing legislation which offers children all those rights.

Today we live in a society which has a shocking record of women and child abuse. In some ways we are receding to barbarism. Many animals have a better record of child care. This is putting it rather strongly. We need to tighten up as a nation. Why are people guilty of dereliction of responsibility and as adults still allowed to go about society with a measure of respectability?

Society as a whole needs to censure individuals who are no longer human. The values of ubuntu''botho’’ are critical to our wellbeing. Laws are important, but moral norms and standards are of paramount importance. Crime Quarterly of March this year states and I quote:

By the time they turn 18 years of age, 20% of girls …

We must protect our children in a way that will ensure the future of our nation, society and the entire human species. [Time expired.][Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the protection of our children should not be and is not the responsibility of one body, but rather intersectoral. There are a number of departments whose contribution would prove to be beneficial to the protection of children and preventing child abuse.

The MF notes that the Departments of Justice and Constitutional Development, Education, Health, Home Affairs, child labour, Safety and Security, Foreign Affairs, the Office on the Rights of Children, the National Prosecuting Authority, as well as civil society have embarked on a project of preventing and managing child abuse.

A number of factors need to be taken into account since issues pertaining to the matter of child abuse are extremely sensitive. The MF is in unison with all efforts to stamp out all forms of child abuse.

It is pleasing to note that many perpetrators of child abuse have been brought to justice, but we want to stamp out abuse completely. Abuse robs our children of their innocence and humanity. Often we find articles of abuse in the paper, such as the teacher who has been accused of abusing a number of his students. This is unacceptable.

The MF hereby calls on all role-players, especially the community, to stamp out child abuse and neglect. Let us make our children our priority. The abandonment of children has become a major consequence to which HIV/Aids has made a large contribution. The plea for safe sex has visibly fallen on deaf ears, and innocent children bear the brunt. Innocent babies are being exposed to this in contravention of their human rights.

The MF supports the protection and defence of the child’s rights in society and calls for an end to child abuse.

Ms G M BORMAN: Chairperson, 18 months ago, I spent a day in a police car in the upmarket surburb of Westville where I live. Late in the afternoon a call came, directing us to a house where there was a report of child abuse. The report came from the domestic servant whose little girl of six was watching TV in the lounge of the house. The 71-year-old father of the owner of the house had gone into the lounge and was interfering with the little girl. Fortunately, the child’s mother walked in before any serious violence happened. By reporting the incident, the mother ran the risk of being dismissed from her employment.

Today no child is safe anywhere - not in the home, school and not even in church. Such is the society in which we live. Minister Skweyiya has said that over the next three years the theme for his department will be putting children first. The World Summit for children in 2001 stated that:

The children of the world are innocent, vulnerable and dependent. They are also curious, active and full of hope. Their childhood should be one of joy and peace, playing, learning and growing. Their future should be shaped in harmony and co-operation. Their lives should mature as they broaden their perspective and gain new experiences.

That is all very beautiful. It is what we all dream of for our children, but the reality is very different. Daily we are faced with headlines that shock us. Teachers giving extra classes,'' they say,in bedrooms!’’ Or again, Atlantis, lost city of child abuse, rape, prostitution!'' Or The rising toll of schools drug scourge!’’ Or Many child sex offenders are too young to be prosecuted!'' OrGirl, four, raped!’’ Or `Eleven million children in South Africa live in poverty!’’

Police stastistics, and we have heard them quoted here earlier on, show that one in six rape survivors are younger than 12 years old and nearly half of them are under 18. In fact, it is much higher, as many incidents of sexual violence against children are not reported to the police. Children and their families fear being disbelieved, blamed, intimidated or stigmatised.

City Press reports, and I quote:

Education, children are made to believe, is the key to success. But not really for a learner of Makhosini Combined School in Gauteng who was sexually abused and allegedly infected with the deadly HIV by her teacher last year. A young life ruined!

Our Constitution requires that children be protected from maltreatment, neglect, abuse or degradation. In this Child Protection Week, South Africa should heed Mr Skweyiya’s call to put children first. However, it will need more than one Minister’s slogan to put a stop to this immoral, inhuman and indecent abuse of children. It will need all the resources of Government, the concerted efforts of NGOs, school curricula, the teaching of churches, the co- operation of the media and the mobilisation of parents if we are to have any hope of halting this pernicious and demonic blot on our national life.

The children are crying out: Love us don’t hurt us. [Time expired.][Applause.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, I want to extend my condolences to the family of Rudi Heine and to the DA. We are surely going to miss his jokes in the pub after work. May his soul rest in peace.

I want to say, hon Tsheole, that it’s important that we do raise the issue of statistics, because it must remind us all the time of the massive task ahead of us. It is in that context that I want to say 57% of all our children under the age of 17, and over a quarter of the South African population, live in dire poverty.

We need to tackle the structural problems inherent to the current child support grant. A recent report indicates that 75% of poor children below seven years of age do not receive the child support grant. Child-headed households have no relationship with Government and receive no grants. Poverty-stricken children over the age of seven receive no support, and I therefore welcome the Bill before Parliament to deal with these structural problems.

We sit in Parliament debating child protection, child rights and child abuse every year, while a great number of our children succumb to abuse. Lip service is not enough. What we are doing here is literally paying lip service to the problems of our children. All of us sit here and debate these issues that are so glaringly obvious and then retire to the three quarters of our lounges, to our safe homes and our secure houses. It is not enough in order to help and educate children. We need the basic income grant now, not two years from now. We need to extend the child support grant to all our children between the ages 0 and

1. We need to simplify the child support grant procedures and we also need to make the child support grant available to the thousands of child-headed households that have been left in the wake of Government’s reluctance to address the HIV/Aids pandemic. [Time expired.]

Ms H I BOGOPANE-ZULU: Mr Deputy Chair, I am just going to be very brief because I do believe that members are very tired. It will be an injustice and disservice to the children if I don’t try and just request some hon members in the House to sometimes just take an opportunity to think about the children before we put forward their own political beliefs.

The hon Waters talks about the Child Protection Units. Yes, we agree that there are some inefficiencies, but it doesn’t harm to acknowledge that it is this ANC Government that put those Child Protection Units in place. When it was you who were in government, you failed. You never even recognised children.[Applause.] So it really does not harm at all, and it won’t harm you to just once say ``well done’’.

Regarding what the hon Nkabinde said, it has really been helpful in terms of the issues which she raised. However, it would have been very good if, as a mother and, I believe, coming from an African background, you had given some solutions to the problems you raised. Women are really doing their best to protect children. They are going out of their way to do everything they can to ensure that children are protected.

However, sometimes we have our nice men who don’t seem to protect even their own children that they themselves brought into this world. I am just trying to find our what the hon Minister should do. Should the hon Minister stop the men who abuse their own blood from having children? I am not sure. It would be interesting to hear.

With regard to what hon Van Jaarsveld raised, I am not sure if we do have a protocol on the rights of the child. I remember that we, last time, had a convention on the rights of the child, and we had optional protocols and, luckily, it is the responsibility of the committee that I am chairing to remind Government about its international obligations. So there is no such protocol from the UN that is called the protocol on the rights of the child.

The only outstanding protocol that we need to ratify in terms of our obligations is the optional protocol on children in armed conflict. I am not sure about the one that you refer to. It would be helpful if you could get the correct name of the convention or the correct name of the protocol you are referring to so that we can ensure that we facilitate the ratification, but the one that you refer to does not exist.

To Ntate Mogoba, it was very encouraging to hear a father figure talking about what men are doing out there. I think we should really congratulate you and request that there be more men who will really begin to get morals so that they don’t behave like animals.

To hon Borman, thank you very much and we share some of your sentiments. It was very good to hear a mother speak without hearing her talking about the stance of the DA, but sharing the sentiments of what we talk about when we talk about child protection and the realities, and having a South Africa that is fit for the children which we all wish to have one day. Believe it or not, in respect of the inputs that you have made, we have taken note, and we will try our best.

I am not sure whether it is correct, hon De Lille, to say that child-headed households are ignored by Government. We might not have reached all the child-headed households, but it is very important to acknowledge that there are special grants for child-headed households in the Department of Health and in the Department of Social Development. It is acknowledged that there might be problems in accessing the grants, but to say that Government is completely ignoring child-headed households, I am not sure whether that is correct or is a statement we can make today.

Deputy Chairperson, on 16 June 1994 President Nelson Mandela, after being presented with the outline of the National Programme of Action for Children, reinforced Government’s commitment to putting children first, and despite challenges, we are still striving towards that. The National Programme of Action for Children is a holistic programme that seeks to promote and protect the rights of children in South Africa. It provides a framework through which Government departments put into practice the principles of putting children first. The challenges are huge but we are getting there. Slowly but surely we are making big strides.

To ensure that we are on the right track to protecting the rights and the dignity of children - because it’s not only about the children’s rights, it’s about their dignity, too, which is a concept we tend to forget when we talk about children - the first aspect is to give children a hearing, to give them the space to be listened to. I believe that, through the many campaigns that this Government has implemented, we have given children a voice for the first time. We will continue to do so on issues that affect them, because we are implementing Article 12 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, namely that children should have a say on issues that impact on them. We have, in this Parliament on different occasions, ensured that we listen to children, which is one of the things for which, I think, we as this Government should be applauded, because it has never happened before.

We sincerely acknowledge the challenges that the National Programme of Action face, but we acknowledge that we should be given credit where credit is due. Our National Programme of Action is the best in the world, not only because it is there, but because it brings together Government and civil society for a common goal: to be able to make one notion, namely that it takes a village to raise a child, a reality.

We have established nine provincial plans of action for children which are established through the premiers’ offices and are tasked with the same responsibility that the National Programme of Action is supposed to implement. We do hope that, as we discuss and deliberate on a number of issues relating to children, the provinces will also be ensuring that they enhance the issues that the provincial plans of action are supposed to do.

We have done a number of things to attempt to raise issues relating to children. We have the documentary, A day in the life of a South African child, which was recently shown on television and which reminded us what it means to be a child in South Africa. We have radio talk shows for the first time for which all you need is a tollfree number that enables children to ask their leadership questions and to be able to make inputs into the issues. That in itself is about making sure that children begin to participate in issues that affect them.

The issue of child abuse is a very sad and a very thorny issue for our Government. Unless families begin to take the responsibility and Government meets us halfway, we might run the risk of not being able to win that war, because we have done our best in terms of amending what we call the definition of a family from the narrow definition of a family from the previous Family Act. We have gone out of our way to acknowledge domestic violence and, unfortunately, a number of the child abuse cases happen in the house, in the home. Are we now asking Government to provide a security guard for every household? That really requires parents to begin to take their own children seriously so that Government can then meet them halfway in ensuring their protection, because it becomes one of those things which you don’t know how to deal with. Maybe the process of a moral regeneration of society would assist us.

The other challenge for which I think we really deserve a pat on the back is that previously you would not even dare talk about child abuse, never mind what happened in another household, never mind the neighbour being in a position to report what happened to that particular child, because it was none of that person’s business. We need to acknowledge the steps, and give this Government credit where it is due.

Today we talk as if child abuse happened yesterday or was born yesterday. What is good is that we as a community and as a society are beginning to talk about child abuse, which is something that we have never been able to do in the past. So what has been on the increase is not the issue of child abuse. What has been on the increase is the reporting of child abuse, and that has become an issue to be talked about as it is something we never dared talk about before. We need to at least give this Government credit for that.

It has created an enabling environment and it’s creating an environment for everybody to come forward, even for the neighbour to begin to interfere. That never used to happen in the past. For instance, when you beat your child up, the neighbour can now take you to court. Chairperson, I think we all need to acknowledge that a number of things have been done and, in all aspects, give Government credit for that. As South Africa, we are leading the world in the reported instances. We are slowly but surely beginning to see serious prosecutions. In the past years, one would report child abuse, but one would not get a sense of whether these cases got to court or not.

However, we are beginning to see that even our judiciary is beginning to take issues of child abuse seriously, and that should be good news. It sends a very clear message to perpetrators out there, in particular those of sexual offences and rape. One of the best things that this Government has introduced is the definition of rape and acknowledging that children are also being sexually violated. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity, and I would like to thank the House for the debate. It is a really important matter that we have come to discuss. The fact that this House has discussed it four times in this year is probably an indicator of the extent of the problem.

I would like to thank the hon Saloojee for his observations about our obligations to meet the social and economic rights of children and the potential cost related to that, and how we strive to meet the objectives of our Constitution, given the extent of poverty in this country. He also makes the point that children’s rights, as indicated in the Constitution, do not exist in isolation. It is the environments in which those children live that need to be improved, namely where they work, at school, at play, in the home and in the community. The extent of the problem is honestly vast.

The allegation by the hon member Waters that the ANC does not care for children is not only preposterous, it is highly inaccurate. Your efforts on the children’s protection units are laudatory, but do not imagine for one moment that you bring us information that we did not have. [Interjections.] Why donS’t you use your energy to become part of the solution, rather than redefining the problem - a problem which, I might tell you, we are acutely aware of and we do an enormous amount about.

Just a cursory inventory of the child-dedicated programmes managed by our Government represents a clear indicator of Government’s serious intent. Here I would just like to name a few. The current review of the Child Care Act, as you know, is an extensive and all-reaching highly consultative process. Secondly, we have the consideration of the Child Justice Bill, an incredibly well-prepared and costed piece of legislation, enjoying the full attention of no less than three committees in this Parliament.

Your information about additional personnel for the SAPS is incorrect, because 445 people have been allocated to the new Child Protection Unit. They will be allocated as soon as they have completed their training, which you indicated was so important, while 128 of the 445 have already been allocated. Furthermore, 71 additional vehicles have been allocated to child protection units by the SAPS.

School-feeding schemes sponsored by this Government attempt to meet the basic dietary requirements of learners throughout the country. Then there is free medical care to children under the age of six. The Department of Social Development has registered 2,76 million children between the ages of nought and eight years. In addition, National Treasury has announced an incremental extension of this grant to children up to 14 years of age. Foster care grants for children who are, amongst others, victims of the Aids pandemic and who have been orphaned are being increasingly provided to children across the board in this country. Legal Aid has set up a programme of assistance to help children to access their social benefits rights. I could go on and on.

I will, just for the interest of the House, indicate that an additional R2,7 billion has been appropriated for courts and police to streamline the justice process. This brings the total allocation for Justice and Police Services to nearly R27 billion, an increase of 10,98% for the 2002-03 budget allocation. I would like to suggest that this is a clear indicator of Government’s intent to deal with this problem.

Victim empowerment programmes are being introduced throughout our courts. Infrastructure for sexual offences exist in 185 courts in our country. Five family courts pilot the new protocols in preparation for new legislation on the family law front. The Office of the Family Advocate operates to execute the Hague Convention mandate that they have and they work full time, often under extremely difficult situations. The fact regarding the domestic violence legislation is that people in literally their thousands are turning to the courts for remedy. We are aware that very often they have to wait for a very long time, but in increasing numbers every year people do see the courts as a solution.

The Department of Education has a dedicated programme to prevent violence in schools. The justice college has a full-time programme for the training of members of the Police Force and the justice sector on the Domestic Violence Act, and this happens on an ongoing basis. I would like to suggest that just this cursory inventory of the details would suggest a caring, child-centred Government.

As regards the hon member Mbadi, the importance of values was stressed, and I agree that a return to the importance of the family as protector of the child is important. We as MPs, regardless of party affiliation, should take this message to our constituencies and advocate for its propagation to every corner of this country.

The hon Van Jaarsveld made the observation that child abuse is everybody’s business, and we need to speak more freely about it, because it is still true that the stigma of child abuse often prevents children from turning to people for help, even when it is available. South Africa’s accedence record in respect of international agreements aimed at protecting vulnerable groups has been exemplary. For the hon Van Jaarsveld’s interest, I have a list here of all of those we have acceded to, which is three pages long. It is an exemplary record. I will take up that matter, if you could just give me the details. The Minister of Foreign Affairs is a strong proponent and advocate of children’s and women’s rights. I know that she would roll many stones out of the way to assist us.

Hon Nkabinde, for the same reasons I have stated earlier, our policy is not lip service. Our action is a real indication that we are very concerned about these issues. I would like to reassure you that the SA Law Commission is examining legislation on trafficking in order to protect women and children. I just want to assure you, as I did the hon Waters, that it would be so much more welcome if you joined our processes to make our efforts as a collective more effective. We are acutely aware of the extent of the problem, and we spend every single day trying to improve what we do incrementally and on a sustainable basis. I urge you to engage us in this process and we will take the matter forward. Grandstanding will bring you no medals. [Interjections.] Hon Tsheole, the importance of understanding that the expansion of our services must be done in an incremental and sustainable manner is essential to this problem. If there was an instant solution to the existing problems, the ANC would snap it up right away. The integrated approach that we have set in place is bringing results and, if appropriately planned, will reach greater and greater numbers of children each year on an incremental and sustainable basis.

I think I have covered just about all the points. The hon Bogopane-Zulu and the hon Mogoba made the very important point that men need to become actively involved in this process. They need to join the ranks of activists out there and to stand up for the protection of children and not tolerate abuse in their communities. If they know somebody who is doing it, they must censure that behaviour and ensure that it does not happen again.

I thank you all for a very useful debate. We will take all your suggestions forward. Please join us in trying to help solve the problems. Encourage volunteers in your constituencies to assist where there are gaps in the services. We need all the help we can get. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon colleagues, before we proceed with the next order of the day, allow me to take this opportunity also to express my condolences and those of the House to the family of Rudi Heine. We shall all miss him. May his soul rest in peace.

                   PUBLIC PROTECTOR AMENDMENT BILL

          (Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee)

There was no debate.

Report adopted.

                   PUBLIC PROTECTOR AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate) The DEPUTY MINISTER  FOR  JUSTICE  AND  CONSTITUTIONAL  DEVELOPMENT:  Deputy Chairperson and colleagues, the Public Protector is included  in  Chapter  9 of  the   Constitution,   dealing   with   state   institutions   supporting constitutional democracy. These institutions operate independently  and  are accountable to Parliament.

There have been arguments that the present appointment mechanism for Deputy Public Protectors, namely, that they must be appointed by the Cabinet member responsible for the administration of justice, erodes the independence of that office as such a person may eventually assume the duties as Public Protector. Consequently, the Public Protector requested my department to consider the possibility of amending the existing appointment mechanism. That request led to the introduction of the Bill that comes before the House today.

Deputy Chairperson, as indicated in the memorandum on the objects of the Bill, the main object of the Bill is to further regulate the appointment of the Deputy Public Protector. The Bill, however, also contains minor amendments relating to the Office of the Public Protector and technical amendments, bringing the terminology in the principal act in line with recent developments.

Although we will not cover all the provisions of the Bill before us, I think that it is important to mention some of new principles relating to the appointment of the Deputy Public Protector, and which are contained in the Bill. Firstly, provision is made for the appointment of only one Deputy Public Protector. Secondly, the Deputy Public Protector will be appointed by the President on the recommendation of the National Assembly …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Carry on, hon Deputy Minister. I am trying to get you a more receptive audience.

The DEPUTY MINISTER: Provision is made that the National Assembly must recommend the person nominated by a committee of the National Assembly and approved by the National Assembly via a resolution adopted with a supporting vote of the majority of the members of the National Assembly. Thirdly, the Deputy Public Protector will be appointed for a period not exceeding seven years, but he or she may, at the end of his or her term of office, be reappointed for one additional term. Fourthly, the Deputy Public Protector may be removed from office only on the adoption by the Nation Assembly of a resolution calling for his or her removal from office, which resolution should be adopted with a supporting vote of the majority of the members of the National Assembly.

Chairperson, I have noted the contents of the portfolio committee’s report on the Bill and have already requested the department to investigate the matter on an urgent basis. I think that all members present in the House today recognise the important role that Chapter 9 institutions play in strengthening and entrenching a human rights culture amongst our people. These institutions also significantly enhance Government’s fight against corruption. It is for those very reasons that we must do everything in our power to support and fortify those institutions in the important role that they play.

Section 181(3) of the Constitution also provides that organs of state, through legislative and other measures, may assist and protect state institutions supporting constitutional democracy, the so-called Chapter 9s which include, amongst others, the Public Protector, to ensure their independence, impartiality, dignity and effectiveness.

During 2001 Cabinet entrusted my department with that important constitutional responsibility. We have accordingly established within the department a directorate that would be responsible for, amongst others, promoting and maintaining communication channels between the relevant Chapter 9 institutions and state departments, ensuring that proposals emanating from and recommendations made in the reports of the Chapter 9 institutions receive the required attention, and reviewing and evaluating the existing budgetary processes and financial arrangements applicable to Chapter 9 institutions. The Chapter 9 institutions are now able to liaise closely with the department on any problems that they might experience and which they feel could have an effect on their independence, impartiality, dignity and effectiveness. I think this is a very favourable development.

I would like to thank the officials in the department who assisted with drafting this amendment. Thanks must once again go to the committee and its chairperson for their diligent consideration of this legislation. I stand in support of this Bill. [Applause.]

Adv J H DE LANGE: Deputy Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the ANC in unconditional support of the Public Protector Amendment Bill.

Firstly, I wish to start off by conveying my condolences, personally, and on behalf of my party, the ANC, to the hon Rudi Heine’s family. He always had a warm and a quick smile and he was always quick to crack a joke. I think we will miss him sorely in this House. May he rest in peace. Many people have to be thanked for this legislation, including the Public Protector, that is the old one and the new one, and various other persons who have promoted this legislation. We particularly have to thank Johan Labuschagne in the department, as well as Barrington Mkhize, his superior, for being able to lead and help us steer this legislation through Parliament.

As you are aware, when we drafted the Constitution, we followed the best practices which were prevailing at that stage in the world and we, like other countries, created a whole host of institutions to support democracy in this country. Many of the functions, duties and responsibilities of these institutions previously used to be performed by Government itself. However, the trend has been for many of these functions now to be given to such institutions which are independent and are able to oversee Government fulfil certain functions.

Obviously, in each country, the form, functions and responsibilities of these institutions vary. One such institution is the Public Protector. The Public Protector in other countries usually takes the form of an ombudsman. In our country, I think that it cannot be gainsaid that our Public Protector has been a tremendously useful institution in the few years that it has been in existence, particularly with the limited resources available to it. It has particularly become a weapon for the poor and the destitute to get officials of Government to perform certain functions where they have been unwilling to do so, or tardy. The mechanism of Public Protector’s appointment, removal and suspension is fully spelt out in the Constitution.

A few years ago we also created the possibility that Deputy Public Protectors may be appointed. At the time, there was much debate about the proper mechanism to do so. In the end the committee unanimously decided that it should be done by the Minister. We did so particularly because we felt that, if we also allowed the Deputy Public Protector to be appointed through a political process, then through Parliament, then the chances of persons rising through the ranks of the Public Protector and becoming the Deputy would be much smaller. Therefore, there would be less incentives for persons to join this institution because the two top positions would be filled through a political process.

However, the Public Protector has continuously felt that this appointment mechanism could create the perception that it is not independent. Government, instead of further arguing about this issue, has rather decided to therefore change the appointment mechanism in the future so that it is now almost identical to that of the Public Protector himself or herself.

I must add that the committee still has some hesitation as to whether this is the right route to follow. But, we have felt that, at the end of the day, if the Public Protector keeps on motivating and arguing for this, particularly in public, we should not stand in the way of changing this matter and allowing the deputy to be appointed through a political parliamentary process. We just hope that this does not inhibit persons to join and to stay on in the Public Protector once they are there, because they feel that their promotion opportunities are limited. I am sure that only time will tell.

I also want to thank all the parties in the committee. We have passed this legislation unanamously. It’s again through hard work and compromise that we were able to sort out all the technicalities. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Mr Deputy Chair, this amending Bill seeks to introduce requirements applicable to candidates for the position of Deputy Public Protector. In addition thereto, the Bill intends enabling Members of Parliament with more than 10 years experience to be suitable candidates for election to both the position of Public Protector, as well as Deputy Public Protector.

As you are aware, the DA opposed the appointment of Mr M L Mushwana, the previous Deputy Chairperson to the NCOP, during the course of last year on the basis that he was an ANC MP, elected by his ANC colleagues by majority decision from the party to which he belongs, the ANC.

By introducing legislative measures to facilitate the appointment of MPs to the Office of the Public Protector and Deputy Public Protector, the ANC, as the ruling party, is displaying all the arrogance and contempt for dissent that has come to characterise its tenure in government.

The Office of the Public Protector is a Chapter 9 institution in terms whereof the independence of those institutions is to be protected. No steps should be endorsed by Parliament to systematically erode the independence of an institution such as the Public Protector’s Office. The appointment of serving ANC MPs as Public Protectors to protect the interests of the public against the Government of which he was a member of the ruling party, does not create an image of impartiality which is required of officials serving in an independent institution such as the Public Protector. [Interjections.]

It should go without saying that the appointment of MPs, particularly ANC MPs, is utterly inappropriate as MPs are active party politicians with a particular view toward Government, be it in opposing Government’s questionable actions or by acting in support of those actions of Government by virtue of his or her political affiliation.

These positions require the incumbents to be responsible only to the Constitution and the law. The public need to be able to trust the integrity of institutions designed to protect their interests. The international community, including the community of investors, needs to believe that the future of our constitutional democracy is safe and that no action that erodes the supremacy of the Constitution will be tolerated.

This development is quite clearly another addition to a litany of intended ANC cadre deployments and interferences in independent institutions such as the Public Protector by stealth, I wish to add.

It is to be noted that no other requirements are stated for members of Parliament to become the Public Protector or the Deputy Protector, except the requirements of being a fit and a proper person. No legal qualification or experience is required. An MP with no legal background whatsoever is therefore able to be elected to a position requiring a proper understanding of legal issues, in particular the legal and socioeconomic rights of members of the public against the Government which is alleged to have contravened his or her rights.

One can ask why are MPs afforded special mention in the Bill. Let me provide you with an answer: It is the ANC’s stated policy that it wishes to extend hegemony over the state and civil society. This is not paper policy. Almost everything the ANC does is designed to close down the space for independence from the ruling party and its agenda.

Ten spyte van bogenoemde aspekte verskaf hierdie wetsontwerp ‘n meganisme ingevolge waarvan ‘n formele proses gevolg moet word waardeur ‘n komitee van die Parlement die aangewese Adjunk Openbare Beskermer moet aanstel, soortgelyk aan die proses wat gevolg moet word om die Openbare Beskermer aan te stel.

Op grond van, onder meer, hierdie oorweging, en gesien in die lig van die feit dat die Adjunk Openbare Beskermer in die verlede deur die Minister van Justisie aangestel kon word sonder die voorgestelde proses, ondersteun die Demokratiese Alliansie hierdie wetsontwerp. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In spite of the above-mentioned aspects, this Bill provides a mechanism in terms of which a formal process must be followed, according to which a committee of Parliament must appoint the designated Deputy Public Protector, similar to the process that must be followed to appoint the Public Protector.

On the basis of, inter alia, this consideration, and in the light of the fact that in the past the Deputy Public Protector could be appointed by the Minister of Justice without the proposed process, the Democratic Alliance supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T E VEZI: Chair, the main objective of the Bill is to regulate the appointment of the Deputy Public Protector. The 1994 principal Act provided that the Cabinet member responsible for the administration of justice, that is, the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, could appoint Deputy Public Protectors. However, it was felt that the provision could lead to the erosion of the independence of the Public Protector as an institution. The amending Bill therefore provides that the Deputy Public Protectors will in future be appointed by the President, and not by the Cabinet Minister.

During its deliberations, the portfolio committee noticed that a term of office for Deputy Public Protectors was not specified. After reflection, the committee decided to insert a term of office and agreed that it would be for a maximum of seven years, renewable only once. The committee also decided to provide in the Bill for the suspension of Deputy Public Protectors from office by the President after the institution of an investigation or inquiry. It also decided to include that a person who had been a Member of Parliament for a cumulative period of at least 10 years may be considered as a candidate for the position of Public Protector.

The IFP supports the Public Protector Amendment Bill. The Bill also does well in regulating the term of office of Deputy Public Protectors and their suspension and removal from office.

However, there is a concern that a former member of Parliament would be able to become a Public Protector. This could possibly erode public confidence in the institution, as it would create doubts in the public mind as to the neutrality of a former party politician. I thank you.

Mna M J MALAHLELA: Sebatakgomo! Anke ke thome ka gore Maloko a Palamente a ile a etela Cuba ka morago ga tokologo. Ge ba le dijong ba le gare ba swere mehlamu le benggae ba bona, ba be ba botšišana gore wene o molatedi wa phathi efe. Ba bangwe ba rena re ile ra bontšha gore phathi ya rena goba mokgatlo wa rena ke wa go lwela tokologo ya Afrika-Borwa. Re ile ra botšišwa gore le lwela tokologo e fe ka gore le lokologile? Ke tokologo e fe yeo l bolelago ka yona ka gobane gona bjale le tlile mo ka gore le lokologile?

Tše, re no di bolela ka ge re nyaka go hlalosetša setšhaba gore se kwešiše gore ge re eme mo ke rena bomang; re tšwa kae; re ya kae.

Tlhathollo e sa tšwela pele ka gore ka ngwaga wa 1955 ba rile ge ba kopane Kliptown, ba kwana ka molomo wa lehlabula gore `batho ba tla buša’. E be e se taba ya gore ba be ba e kwa bodutu; e be e le taba ya gore ba be ba lwela tokologo. Ka la 27 Aporele 1994 Afrika-Borwa e ile ya buša ya kopana gape, ya re batho a ba buše! Efela ga go a swanela go fo buša mang le mang; a go buše mokgatlo wa African National Congress - mokgatlo wa bo Moses Mabida le bo malome Kotane.

Re rile ge re tšeya maatla, bjaloka mokgatlo wa batho, ra kwešiša gore ntweng ya tokologo re ithutile se sengwe gore ge re re batho ba tla buša re ra go swana le go fetiša molao wo re o beilego lehono wa gore re be le Kantoro ya Motlhokomedi wa Setšhaba ka gore ke rena fela re tsebago; e bile ke rena fela re kwešišago gore batho ke eng gobane ga go na karogano magareng ga rena le batho. Ka gona, go swanetše go no kwešišega gore ge re le mokgatlo gomme re re batho ba tla buša gobane batho ba rile rena re buše, re bowa re e fa batho maatla a gore batho ba buše, ke fela batho bao ba ka tlago go rena ba re ga le buše gabotse. Go no ba le bothata bja balata go fo tla ba re ga le buše gabotse etšwe ba sa tsebe selo ka maatla, mola e le batho bao ba rilego rena re buse. Bjale, re no kgopela balata gore anke le beng le maitshwaro, le bušege gobane go bušwa go bose. [Legofsi.]

Ge re dira bjalo, re e fa batho maatla a go buša ka Kantoro ya Motlhokomedi wa Setšhaba, re dira seo gobane re ithutile se sengwe ka tshekatsheko yeo e ilego ya dirwa ke yo mongwe wa baetapele ba Chile, Volodya Teitelbaum, yo a ilego a bontšha gore ge o swere maatla, tšwela pele gore go be le karolo ye itšego gare ga gago le batho gore batho ba tšwele pele go go fa maatla. Ke seo batho ba tlilego go se dira ngwaga wo tlago.

Re leboga mekgatlo ye mentšsi ya tokologo yeo e dirilego gore lehono re be mo gomme re bolele gore batho a ba buše, re be re fetiše le melao ya go swana le wo. Re leboga banna ba go swana bo Carlos Fonseca le Daniel Ortega ba Sandanista National Liberation Front go la Nicaragua, gobane ke bona ba re rutilego dilo tše, elego tse dingwe tšeo di dirilego gore re be mo.

Re leboga mekgatlo ya go swana bo Farabuntumadi le Barasine Nasion ya El Salvador, gobane ke yona e re rutilego gore batho le mokgatlo ga se ba swanela gore ba amologane. Fang batho maatla gomme le be le hlome dikantoro tša go swana le ye ya Motlhokomedi wa Setšhaba! [Legofsi.]

Re leboga batho ba go swana bo General von Guan Jian, mmušiši wa Vietnam yo a ilego a bontšha gore ge go ka ba le kamologano gare ga batho le mmušo, batho ba tla re tsogela maatla gomme ba feleletša ba re amogile maatla ale ba re filego wona.

Banna bao ke bolelago ka bona e be e se balata; e be e le balwelatokologo. Re leboga banna ba go swana bo Colonel Thomas Sankara wa Burkino Faso yo a ilego a bontšha ge a be a lwela tokologo ya Burkino Faso gore Afrika-Borwa le yona ka le lengwe la matšatši e tlo fihla tokologong mo e tlo rego ge e file batho maatla a go buša, African National Congress le yona e tšeye maatla ale e a bušetše morago.

Re le bamokgatlo wa African National Congress, re tloge re thekga re bile re fetiša Molaokakanywa wo wa gore go be le Motlatšsa-Modulasetulo wa Ofisi ya Motlhokomedi wa Setšhaba gobane ke rena re tsebago gore setšhaba ke eng; ke rena re tsebago gore setšhaba se hlokomelwa bjang; ke rena re filego setšhaba maatla! Ke a leboga Modulasetulo. [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi speech follows.)

[Mr M J MALAHLELA: Hon members! Let me start by saying that members of Parliament visited Cuba after the advent of our new democracy. During conversations at dinner with their host, they asked each other about their political affiliations. Some of us said our political party was the one that fought for South Africa’s freedom. We were asked which freedom were we fighting for, because we were free. Which freedom were we talking about, because we were able to visit them as we were free?

We are talking about all this as we want to let our people understand who we are; where we come from; and about our future. The further explanation is that when the comrades met in 1955 in Kliptown, they all agreed that ``the people shall govern’’. It was not out of boredom, but it was because they were fighting for freedom. On 27 April 1994 South Africa met again, and said that the people should govern! But not anybody could govern; the African National Congress was to govern - the organisation of people like Moses Mabida and uncle Kotane.

When we took power, as an organisation of the people, we understood that during the freedom struggle we learnt that when we say the people shall govern, we mean as in passing the Bill before us today that we should have the Office of the Public Protector as we are the only ones in the know; and we understand people because there is no division between us. So, it must be understood that as an organisation that says that the people shall govern, as they voted for us, we come back to give them power to govern, and it is only those people who can come to us and say we do not govern properly. We only have a problem with laymen who come and say we do not govern properly while they know nothing about power, as it is the people who said we should govern. Now, we plead with the laymen to behave, and be governable, as it is nice to be governed. [Applause.]

When we give people the power to govern through the Office of the Public Protector, we do that because we learnt something from the criticism that was made by one of the Chilean leaders, Volodya Teitelbaum, who showed us that when you are in power, you should create a space for people to participate so that they continue to give you power. That is what people will do next year. We thank many liberation movements who made sure that we are here today to pass Bills like this and say, let the people govern. We thank men like Carlos Fonseca and Daniel Ortega of Sandanista National Liberation Front in Nicaragua, because they taught us things, some of which made it possible for us to be here. We thank movements like Farabundumadi and Barasine Nasion of El Salvador, because they taught us that people and movements are not to be separated. Give people the power and have an office of the Public Protector, like this one! [Applause.]

We thank people like General von Guan Jian, governor of Vietnam, who showed that if there can be a division between people and the government, people will rise against us and end up taking back the power they invested in us.

The men that I am talking about were not laymen, but freedom fighters. We thank men like Colonel Thomas Sankara of Burkino Faso who said that South Africa would also one day be free, whereby once the people have the power to govern, the African National Congress will also take power back to the people.

As the organisation of the African National Congress, we support and pass the Bill to have the Deputy Chairperson in the Office of the Public Protector because it is we who know what the people are; it is we who know how the people should be cared for; and it is we who gave the people the power! I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Deputy Chair. With our first democratic election and proud compilation of our national Constitution came the establishment of the Public Protector. Bearing its duty and mission in its title, the Public Protector will assist Parliament as an independent and impartial body in investigating any conduct in state affairs or in the public administration and its spheres of government. The MF feels that the existence and operation of the state institutions supporting constitutional democracy, such as the Public Protector, is sincerely encouraging and beneficial to the South African state. The MF feels that the reduction from two Public Protectors to one Public Protector is a concerning factor, and one wonders whether that will be sufficient.

The amendment is made in this Bill to update certain absolute provisions to further regulate the appointment of the Public Protector. The MF supports the amendment. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr G B MAGWANISHE: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, order! Proceed, hon member.

Mr G B MAGWANISHE: Indeed, Deputy Chairperson, the ANC is gradually moving us away from our painful past, a past full of misery and sorrow, full of violence and hatred. Today we do not need to stand here and justify why thousands of people have been in prison without trial. Today we can proudly stand before the nation to pass a law, and to restore dignity to all South Africans.

The Bill before us today is part of the ANC’s programme to deepen democracy and promote a culture of human rights in our country.

We in the ANC believe that institutions that support constitutional democracy should be supported and capacitated so that they are able to meet their constitutional obligations and better the lives of our people. Unlike some people who think that power is glamour, as the ANC we have a programme and we think that power is an instrument that should be used to implement that programme which is about pushing back the frontiers of poverty and restoring dignity to our people. Our people are starting to use the Office of the Public Protector to exercise their rights, and that Office of the Public Protector has been equal to the task.

I am, however, concerned about the abuse of the Office of the Public Protector by some political parties in this House, like the DA. The DA is using the Office of the Public Protector to fight its own political battles when they have been defeated in the proper battlefield, and that is the highest form of cowardice. It is important that we respect institutions that we have created, because if we don’t, who will? In dealing with this Bill, we have established a very clear and transparent process which clearly outlines how the Deputy Public Protector shall be appointed. He/she shall be appointed by the President on the recommendation of the National Assembly.

We have also set out criteria which befit that position, namely that the person who is going to be the Deputy Public Protector must be a fit and proper person to hold such an office. He must be a judge of the High Court or he must be qualified to be admitted as an advocate or attorney and should have accumulated experience over a period of at least 10 years after becoming qualified.

Let me also take this opportunity to thank Advocate Selby Baqwa, our first Public Prosecutor, for a job well done. I would also like to welcome Advocate Mushwana as our new Public Protector and wish him well in fulfilling his new responsibilities.

On behalf of the ANC, I would like to support this Bill. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Before I proceed, I would like the members of the DA to convey my condolences and those of my Minister to the family and friends of Rudi Heine. May his soul rest in peace.

I would like to thank the House for the debate in which the discussion was restricted to the topic at hand. It seems that there was general consensus. I just need to reiterate what the last speaker said, and that is that we really give this Office and the institution as much support as we can. It is very important. They are doing an enormous amount of work on literally a shoestring budget. Issues of resourcing do need to be dealt with, but I believe that the addition of a Deputy will assist the Public Protector enormously in his/her work.

I would like to thank everyone for the debate, and I thank, once again, the officials who worked with us and also thank the committee for their effort. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 18:52. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                        THURSDAY, 29 MAY 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 27 May 2003,  in  terms  of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as  a  section  75
     Bill:


     (i)     Local  Government:  Property  Rates  Bill  [B  19  -  2003]
          (National Assembly - sec 75).

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Trade and Industry:


     (i)     Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Bill [B 27  -  2003]
          (National Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill  and
          prior notice  of  its  introduction  published  in  Government
          Gazette No 24902 of 23 May 2003.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on  Trade  and
     Industry of the National Assembly,  as  well  as  referral  to  the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of  Joint
     Rule 160, on 30 May 2003.
     In terms of Joint Rule 154, written views on the classification  of
     the Bills may be submitted to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 28 May 2003:


     (i)     Exchange Control Amnesty and  Amendment  of  Taxation  Laws
          Bill [B 26 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77).


 (2)    Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 29 May 2003:


     (i)     Insurance Amendment Bill [B 52B - 2002] (National  Assembly
              - sec 75).
    (ii)     Bophuthatswana National Provident Fund Act Repeal Bill  [B
             13 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).
     (iii)   Sefalana Employee Benefits Organisation Act Repeal Bill  [B
             14 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).


    (iv)     Banks Amendment Bill [B 15B - 2003] (National  Assembly  -
             sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

 (1)    Treaty between the Government of the Republic of Mozambique, the
     Government of the Republic of South Africa and  the  Government  of
     the Republic of Zimbabwe on the establishment of the Great  Limpopo
     Transfrontier Park, tabled  in  terms  of  section  231(3)  of  the
     Constitution, 1996.
 (2)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Treaty between the  Government  of
     the Republic of Mozambique,  the  Government  of  the  Republic  of
     South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Zimbabwe on  the
     establishment of the Great Limpopo Transfrontier Park.


 (3)    Annual Report of the Committee for  Environmental  Co-ordination
     for 2002.