TUESDAY, 10 JUNE 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 9:32.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS see col 000.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 2 - Parliament:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Chairperson, I would like to make my starting point this morning the older generation who nurtured and led us to democracy. I am thinking of people like Oliver Tambo, who of course himself never even sat in the gallery. I am also thinking of people like the late Walter Sisulu and Comrade Woolfie Kordesh, who at least had the honour to sit in the gallery and look at us from there, but who, although they never became members of Parliament, I want us to remember, were more honourable than any who have ever graced these benches. [Applause.]

I am thinking of those who came to Parliament briefly, and I remember the old lady Dorothy Nyembe, who had been imprisoned. By the time she came here, she could just shuffle around for some time, and then she retired. She has since passed on. I think of the late Thomas Ngobi, the late Archie Gumede and others who have since passed on, but who at least became members of Parliament after the democratic dispensation came into being.

I also think of some others like Brian Bunting, MaSisulu, MaShope, MaTambo, MaKuzwayo and others, who did manage to serve in the first democratically elected Parliament, and have since retired and sadly today are struggling with inadequate medical aid, no tickets to travel, and yet other ex-members of Parliament have quite a number of tickets to travel every year. [Applause.] They have very little pension, unlike other ex-members of Parliament who were fortunate enough to come and serve here under a different dispensation, while the ones that I am talking about served the country for many years before they came to sit briefly on these benches. But today, they hardly survive on the little pension that they get.

I believe that we as parliamentarians need to think about the state of affairs that affects them, and we need to at least honour them with a decent old age for what they have given to this country. [Applause.]

We need to pay tribute to the older generation of all types and backgrounds for having survived the times that they lived through, wherever they were, whatever they were doing, but in particular those that sit with us here today. I don’t see Bab’uFazzie, but he is a member of this Parliament. [Interjections.] Or Bab’uMiddleton ngala uIFP, or Bab’uSchalkwyk and my friend Colin Eglin, I don’t know where he is … [Interjections] … for having been exemplary when they were exemplary, because we also know that some have done bad things, but we must not remember those things. We must not pay tribute to those things. We must remember and pay tribute and learn lessons from the good things that they have done.

I remember the hon Colin Eglin during the constitution-making times, because of the positive attitude he had as we did that work, which was not easy at all for a person who came from the kind of background that he came from.

I believe they need to be congratulated for surviving those times and for still being part of us.

This year is the year before elections. All of us here are members of political parties and naturally are getting, if we have not done so already, into election campaign mode. I believe that there are certain things which, because this is the last year before the next elections, we as members of this Parliament have a responsibility to tighten, or take certain decisions and certain positions on in order to enable the next Parliament to start from a better basis than what we found when we came here.

I do, of course, know we have to bear in mind that we can’t in every respect tie the hands of the next Parliament by taking very binding decisions that perhaps the next Parliament might prefer to look at in a different way. But I would like to touch on a few things that I believe this collective, which was elected and has been here for the past four years, needs to try and finalise during its last year.

Firstly, around the question of the legislative programme, I believe we need to look at that, bearing in mind the limited time we have left before the next election. On the side of the members of the executive, clearly there is a responsibility for those members to prioritise what in fact needs to be and can be passed before the next election so that we don’t find ourselves faced with a long list of legislation, some of which really could wait for the next parliament. So, there is the question of prioritisation that in particular members of the executive have to be conscious of.

But from our side, as Parliament, we must make sure that we finalise and pass the Powers and Privileges Act, because that’s a very important piece of legislation that has been on our slate for quite some time. [Applause.] It has very serious implications for Parliament, not only this Parliament, but future parliaments, and how we believe Parliament should function, and what should inform its functioning.

The second issue is the question of the process that we started when we had discussions, both in the NCOP and in the National Assembly, on the vision and mission of Parliament. I believe those are exercises we must try and bring to a close. On the side of the National Assembly, at the end of the last session that we had, we formed a task team, headed by the hon Chohan- Khota. Its members have since met and it has made certain proposals that we must look at. We should see to it that we finalise those processes and then merge the two processes of the two Houses so that we can come out with one vision and mission for the whole Parliament.

The third issue which I believe is important is the language policy. The Joint Rules Committee has tasked the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP and myself to head a task team that has been looking at this matter. We have had a number of meetings, and have had a number of drafts, and we hope that the next Joint Rules Committee can look at a document that perhaps would take us closer to adopting a language policy for this institution.

The last issue I want to mention around this particular point about those things that I believe we need to do before the elections is the question of the old debate of integrated committees of Parliament. Those of you who were members of the first democratically elected Parliament will remember that there were times when we had documents of all colours. I think there was once an orange one, which produced a series of arguments and options and scenarios whereby we were saying: How can we try and pool committees that belong to the same cluster together so that we actually have structures that enable us to look at policy in an integrated fashion?

I believe that before the elections we, this collective, must perhaps just revisit that debate, and see if we can come up with proposals that could lay a better basis for the structuring of the next Parliament, postelections.

I now want to move on to the question of how this Parliament must consider preparing itself for the Pan-African Parliament. As you are aware, we formed this working group which has been looking at all matters relating to the African Union. But in particular, there is the issue of the Pan-African Parliament which we in South Africa have offered to host, and, in fact, that position has since been adopted by SADC. It is now officially a SADC position.

So, if all goes well, perhaps the next summit might agree that indeed South Africa must host the Pan-African Parliament, but the issue is: How does this Parliament prepare itself for being part of a Pan-African Parliament? There is also the issue of our, at some point, electing a delegation of people who would then represent us in the Pan-African Parliament. But apart from that, I think that we should consider that, even in our own restructuring, we have to consider the question of where and how we are going to deal with issues relating to the Pan-African Parliament, but also all the other organs of the African Union.

Are we going to continue with the approach of saying that it is not feasible for the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs to deal with all the issues relating to the policy of the Government of South Africa with relation to foreign affairs, as well as deal with the issues of the AU? Are we going to then form a structure that is going to look at issues of the AU, or are we going to have a different approach? These are questions that I am just posing to remind us that these things are facing us, and we can’t shun our responsibility by just shelving them and hoping that some miracle is going to happen with a new Parliament that did not start the kind of work that we have already started doing. So, we have to look at the issue of the restructuring of Parliament, taking that particular question into account.

The second issue around this point is the question of the programme of Parliament itself accommodating the programme of the Pan-African Parliament. Perhaps Mondays would need to be given to the delegates of South Africa to the Pan-African Parliament. We will have to consider reports that will have to come back from that Pan-African Parliament, and how we will process them. I believe that these are all issues that we need to exercise our minds on.

These questions, which relate to the Pan-African Parliament and the AU, are linked to the earlier issue which I raised, and that is our needing to consider how we propose to have integrated structures for the new Parliament, or that we would like to propose for the consideration of the new Parliament.

I believe that these are some of the matters that we must not avoid and which we must not leave hanging in the air. So, thank you very much for your attention and the time that I have been given to be able to share these thoughts, questions and anxieties on matters which I believe are the responsibility of all of us. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A C NEL: Chairperson, colleagues, 91 years ago, on 8 January 1912, the people of South Africa came together to form a parliament of the people, known as the African National Congress. Forty-three years later this parliament of the people played a leading role in organising the Congress of the People, another parliament of the people, that adopted the Freedom Charter on 26 June 1955.

Gathered at this Congress of the People were representatives of the people from all corners of the country, urban and rural; men and women; rich and poor; workers and peasants; students; artists, and religious leaders. They came together to discuss the demands of the people that had been collected in the most democratic process known to our country up to then. These representatives asserted on behalf of the people that:

We, the people of South Africa, declare for all our country and the world to know:

 that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and
 that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the
 will of all the people;


 that our people have been robbed of their birthright to land, liberty
 and peace by a form of government founded on injustice and inequality;


 that our country will never be prosperous or free until all our people
 live in brotherhood, enjoying equal rights and opportunities;


 that only a democratic state, based on the will of all the people, can
 secure to all their birthright without distinction of colour, race, sex
 or belief;


 And therefore, we, the people of South Africa, black and white together
 equals, countrymen and brothers, adopt this Freedom Charter;


 And we pledge ourselves to strive together, sparing neither strength
 nor courage, until the democratic changes here set out have been won.

It was this vision and these principles that guided the people of South Africa, led by the African National Congress, as they struggled for the establishment of a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous nation.

Now, as we near our first decade of freedom, it is appropriate that we reflect on the role that Parliament has played, and still needs to play, in the achievement of the objectives outlined in the Freedom Charter. In 1994 the most immediate tasks confronting us were the translation of the principles and demands of the Freedom Charter and other policy documents into Government policy; replacing the apartheid legal framework with a democratic one, and, at the same time, the transformation of the Public Service that was supposed to implement these new policies and laws.

During the period 1994-1999 Parliament passed a phenomenal amount of legislation. Year on year, the number of Acts passed increased from 55 in 1994, to 89 in 1995, 108 in 1996 and 1997 each, culminating with 136 in

1. During this same period, 56 White Papers were produced setting out the policy framework of the democratic Government. Then, in the period from 1999 to date, having laid a legislative and policy foundation, we increasingly focused on accelerating delivery. Parliament passed between 60 and 75 Bills per year.

Since 1994 Parliament has passed 780 pieces of legislation. Virtually none of the demands raised in the Freedom Charter has been left unattended to. In many cases much remains to be done, but in respect of each and every demand, a solid foundation has been laid. When we talk of the demand that ``the people shall govern’’, we think of our new Constitution, we think of the Financial and Fiscal Commission Act, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, etc.

The demand that all national groups shall have equal rights'' is addressed in, amongst others, the Pan-South African Language Board Act. The Extension of Security of Tenure Act and the Restitution of Land Rights Act, amongst others, seek to address the demand thatthe land shall be shared among those who work it’’. The Human Rights Commission Act, the Public Protector Act, and the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act all seek to give expression to the demand that all shall enjoy equal human rights'', andall shall be equal before the law’’.

This policy and legislative framework was established in the same spirit of openness, transparency and participation that characterised the Congress of the People. Our Parliament has succeeded in bringing together representatives of the people, the rich diversity of our nation. These representatives have engaged each other in robust and, at times, acrimonious debate. However, a spirit of collegiality has always prevailed in the end.

Slowly but surely a national consensus has been forged around national priorities, despite the fact that we might disagree on how those priorities should be addressed. Parliament, as a forum for national debate, has played an important role in this regard. Unfortunately, some still remain sadly confused, whether deliberately or otherwise.

Speaking in a debate on the role of Parliament in alleviating poverty in October 2002, the hon Bernice Sono, then a DP MP, said:

… the alleviation of poverty is the task of the Government and the executive, not of Parliament. Parliament’s job is to hold the executive to account. We as legislators have to see to it that the Government takes steps to alleviate poverty. When …

I stress when'', notif’’ -

… the Government fails, as it has done, it is Parliament’s task to tell Government and also to tell the people, that the Government has failed.

What Parliament, representing millions of people struggling to overcome the legacy of centuries of colonial oppression, can turn around and tell the very people that have entrusted it to represent them, that it has no role to play in the alleviation and eradication of poverty other than to be a trumpet of failure?

We must transcend this narrow, antiquated and, quite frankly, reactionary conception of the roles of legislatures and executives, and the relationship between them. Classical liberal interpretations of parliamentary oversight, with an emphasis on the separation of powers, and checks and balances, are not necessarily the most useful ones to describe adequately our particular reality, and to guide our practice. We need to overcome a political world view that limits the role of Parliament, and more specifically, opposition parties in Parliament to exposing corruption and maladministration - vitally important as this task is in ensuring good governance.

Oversight can, and must, be approached from the perspective of promoting co- operation between the executive and legislature, with a view to contributing to accelerated service delivery. During the course of our first decade of freedom, the oversight role of Parliament has become increasingly focused, relevant, thorough and sophisticated. Many of us recall a time, in the not too distant past, when portfolio committees attempted to grapple with departmental Budget Votes, armed only with our political wits, a few pages extracted from the national Budget, a departmental annual report, and a day or two of briefings.

Today, Treasury regulations require departments to table strategic plans before budget debates, and annual reports five months after the end of a financial year. More and more portfolio committees prepare for budget debates by holding extensive budget hearings, where every facet of the department’s areas of operation are thoroughly examined. Many portfolio committees precede their budget hearings with extensive oversight visits to gain first-hand knowledge of the issues.

Increasingly, different committees are linked up in the same cluster to conduct oversight work in a co-ordinated manner that corresponds to the integrated manner in which departments are trying to function. In this regard, recent visits to various provinces by the Portfolio Committees on Justice and Constitutional Development and Correctional Services, to look into the obstacles retarding progress towards an integrated criminal justice system, must be commended. Another good example is the visit undertaken by the social transformation and home affairs portfolio committees to the Eastern Cape to look at the issue of identity documents and access to social services.

All this oversight work is undertaken, not to discover and advertise the failure of anyone to anyone else, but to ensure that the policies that have been agreed and translated into legislation actually make an impact with regard to improving the lives of people.

As elected representatives, our task must at all times be that of intervening to help remove whatever obstacle may have led to a failure to improve the lives of the people, and strengthening the links between the people and the Government they have elected. Regrettably, much of this work goes unreported although, fortunately, not always unnoticed. Often, those who are most extrovert when the bright limelight of controversy is shining become intensely shy when long, hard hours of patient, unglamorous, systematic oversight work needs to be done.

Recently, the Joint Rules Committee adopted an extremely thorough and well- researched report by the Ad Hoc Committee on Oversight and Accountability. We hope this will contribute to enhancing the general level of understanding of issues of oversight and accountability.

In addition to the oversight work of parliamentary committees, public representatives engage in oversight work in the course of their constituency work when they honour the obligation to maintain regular contact with the people. Unfortunately, despite these positive developments, we have seen the integrity, credibility and legitimacy of Parliament being subjected to a sustained attack from certain quarters.

Parliament can take some cold comfort from the knowledge that it is not the sole target of these attacks. Parliament finds itself in the company of judges of the High Court investigating corruption in party-political funding, Auditors-General and other incumbents of constitutional structures, who do not share certain characteristics of the predecessors their detractors defended so valiantly.

In May 2001 the hon Tony Leon accused the ANC of trying to turn the South African Parliament into a toy poodle - operating in an ethics-free zone''. Later, in the same piece, he refers tothe continued vandalism of our democratic institution by the ANC majority’’. During Parliament’s Budget debate in June 2002, the hon Douglas Gibson chose to title his speech `` The marginalisation of Parliament’’, in which he echoed many of his leader’s sentiments.

These forces have attempted to paint a picture of Parliament as a weak and ineffectual body. These attacks are led by the very same forces who, for decades, proudly defended their participation in a Parliament elected by less than 15% of South Africa’s people. Why do they do this? They know very well that a strong and credible Parliament can only serve to reinforce the transformation process they have consistently sought to block.

In his paper, Good governance needs an effective Parliament, Firoz Cachalia, Speaker of the Gauteng legislature, says:

Since one of the functions of Parliament/Legislatures is to create and sustain a government, actions which undermine Parliament/Legislatures, undermine the authority of the government in the long term, making it more difficult to mobilise support for its decisions.

We believe that Parliament has played a significant role in creating a better life for all. However, this is not to suggest that there are not a host of challenges facing Parliament. Parliament, like so many institutions in our society, has proved remarkably stubborn and resistant to change. Much attention will need to be given to increasing the extent to which Parliament is accessible, not only in law, but in fact. Despite the fact that Parliament is incomparably more open, transparent and accessible than before 1994, we still have a long way to go in ensuring greater access by those who are not organised and resourced.

Structuring and resourcing the work of Parliament in ways that will enable it to carry out its tasks in our second decade of freedom deserve the attention of all parties. We also need to find ways to co-operate with, support and assist the councillors in local government, and be familiar with the activities and decisions of the councils that fall within our constituencies. Equally, we need constantly to promote a closer working relationship between the National Assembly and the NCOP. The challenge of addressing not only our national challenges, but operating in the context of a continental Pan-African Parliament is another challenge.

We would want to conclude by extending our appreciation to the Presiding Officers, Chair and Deputy Chair of Committees, the members of the Chief Whips’ Forum, the Secretary to Parliament, and all members of the parliamentary service: cleaners; service officers; security personnel; catering staff; managers; Hansard staff; Table staff; legal advisers; researchers; the media; parliamentary officers, and other members of the Public Service; support staff of various political parties - in short, all of those who contribute on a daily basis to enable Parliament to serve the people of South Africa.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, the hon Andries Nel is certainly an interesting chap. He has given us an interesting history of this Parliament and of the ANC since 1994. You will know that what he said about the Democratic Alliance is not reality and certainly what he said about the ANC and all that it has achieved over the past years is not reality. [Interjections.] He will know that, in actual fact, the DA has played a very strong and positive role in the parliamentary process of this country since 1994, and we as the DA are very pleased and very proud of what we have achieved. [Interjections.]

The hon Deputy Speaker talked about the fact that we are in a year before elections and politicking is very much part and parcel of what we are doing. Certainly that is exactly the trap into which the hon Andries Nel fell this morning.

The hon Deputy Speaker talked of a need for this Parliament to tighten up and finalise a number of issues that we are working on before that general election next year. I want to say, hon Deputy Speaker, that we agree with you fully and the points I raise today are raised for that very purpose.

Madam Deputy Speaker is again quite right when she says that matters like the language policy need to be resolved now and certainly before next year. The DA has very real concerns about the overall management of Parliament, at both political and administrative level, which needs to be improved upon. This does not mean that we do not respect the work and role that many people play. We acknowledge that we are extremely fortunate to have so many extremely efficient and dedicated officials and Presiding Officers who do their utmost to make a difference.

Unfortunately, not all staff and all officials fall into this category. We have to be concerned about the shortage of skilled staff in certain sections. In short, in many areas of parliamentary life, there is a serious lack of capacity which severely hampers the running of Parliament. A shortage of sufficient skills starts from the Office of the Secretary to Parliament through to the committee section, from Hansard through to the control and proper functioning of the service officers. And we need to get this right and we need to get it right now.

Far too often, for example, decisions are taken at the Rules Committee and yet from one meeting to the next these decisions are not carried out. It also applies to decisions taken which affect the finance section, which again do not manifest themselves in action because the proper directives have not been sent through. These are problems which need to be resolved. Perhaps one of the most frustrating areas of parliamentary life, as far as MPs are concerned, is the committee section itself. The Chair of Committees, who is sitting right behind me at the present time, the hon Doidge, is committed, willing and enthusiastic about his job. But quite frankly, unless he is given adequate trained staff, the committee section will lurch from one problem to another. Of course, portfolio chairs need to co-operate with the Chair of Committees and one knows that they do not always do so - but members from all parties are tired of late notices of meetings or incorrect information being given, etc. And far too often, meetings are cancelled at the last minute or chairs arrive late, which is particularly embarrassing when people have often travelled a long way to give evidence before committees.

Hansard is another section where lots of goodwill exists but there is not enough capacity. It is inconceivable that this important department of Parliament has been allowed to fall as far behind in its reporting as it has. We are told that members can expect their unedited versions of speeches within a few days of delivery but, quite frankly, this is not the case. Soft-bound copies of Hansard are months and months behind, while it is of huge concern that 1999 bound copies of Hansard have not been delivered, while we are still waiting for bound copies of 2000 and 2001 and 2002.

The security within Parliament itself is a cause for major concern. Millions of rands have been spent over the past five years but we all know that the security systems that have been installed are nowhere near adequate to fulfil their purpose, which is to protect individuals and property, offering a secure environment in which the important work of Parliament can be done.

The DA offices in the Marks Building are broken into regularly. Petty theft in Parliament is rife and the theft of confidential information occurs far too frequently. This very past weekend, members of the DA again had their offices broken into, post was opened and documents stolen off computers. The SAPS say there is nothing that they can do. But quite frankly, this is a deplorable situation which has to be corrected.

There are many other things too to talk about as far as administrative problems are concerned: the collapse of the sound and voting system in this House - despite warnings for years from experts employed in Parliament; the ongoing problems with the Department of Public Works over maintenance matters; the transport of MPs from and to parliamentary villages; theft in these villages, and so on.

The political management of Parliament also requires attention. One can talk at length of overbureaucratic rules for the management of question time, rules which have allowed question time to become boring with sweetheart questions asked by ANC members giving Ministers the opportunity to give long, prepared answers to ANC follow-up questions. [Interjections.] Ministers become evasive and at times abusive of opposition parties and all too often the nonavailability of the executive is a cause for major concern. Quite frankly, Mr Chairman, let me concentrate on the DA’s deep concern over the way Parliament is dealing with the new development over the arms deal or the JIT report into the Strategic Defence procurement. The DA has strongly recommended that a joint ad hoc committee be established to investigate this matter. We believe a move such as this is absolutely essential because of the various allegations which continue around this matter to the detriment of Parliament and the good name and reputation of the Government. It is quite clear that the ANC does not want an ad hoc committee appointed for this purpose and is trying very hard to kick the matter into touch by doing nothing. It appears they want the matter referred back to Scopa. That is fine and good if Scopa’s terms of reference are nothing more than whether it was misled or not. The editing scandal itself has to be investigated by another body. It is this type of political mismanagement by the ANC that is causing Parliament embarrassment and leading to frustration among those MPs who want Parliament to function as a proper organ of society in the best interests of all the people. The way Parliament is handling this particular matter is most unsatisfactory.

In conclusion I also want to thank the officials in the NA, the secretary, the undersecretaries, the people working in the questions office, and the legislation and proceedings office for a job well done. To all of you, including to others, including support staff and workers in the cleaning section, thank you very much to all of you who are really trying to make a difference in Parliament. [Applause.]

Mr D M GUMEDE: Chairperson, hon members, comrades, hon Ministers, ladies and gentlemen, the influence of this Parliament far exceeds that of comparable parliaments, in relation to both parliaments on the continent and abroad. Our Parliament and Government have achieved a unique and enviable status, not only in Africa but in the global world at large - it is only those who are blind to reality that do not accept this - thanks to the vision and leadership of the ANC.

There are very few parliaments on the globe that have hosted the Presidents of the USA and of Cuba at the same podium. President Bill Clinton stood at this very podium and so did President Fidel Castro. How many parliaments can boast that?

Over and above these achievements, this Parliament has to do oversight to ensure that the national political agenda of development is indeed on track and pushing back the frontiers of poverty in a democratic, open society so as to improve the quality of life for all and to promote national, continental and global security, peace and development.

Those who were in Kliptown in 1955 drafting the Freedom Charter would be proud of us as they see what they visualised in 1955 unfold, be they in their graves, on their sickbeds or in retirement. However, the challenge is: How do we sustain this? We have lifted the standards, now the question is that of sustaining them. Are we in a position to sustain our standards with the given resources?

What strategy informs our actions, both in the short and long term? Do we cater adequately for members, committees, and resources to be sustainable? A lot of damage was done by the previous government before 1994 that left this country in debt. We are suffering the consequences of that debt. Committee chairpersons at a hearing cogently and persuasively put forward their concerns around a number of inadequacies in budget allocation. It was the view of the chairpersons that there were constraints that were significantly and adversely affecting the ability of committees, but fortunately there are actions that have been taken. There are steps that are being taken to address all these problems.

The area of research, secretarial and administrative support is of great importance for improvement in these areas of oversight. We should enhance the role of Parliament in the national political programme. Parliament has improved in its ability to enable participation and representation of the disadvantaged interest groups or people living in remote areas. A number of constituency offices are involved in outreach programmes. There are imbizos and there is interaction with different interest groups and sectors, irrespective of whether they are rich or poor.

However, this is not enough. More has to be done. Having said this, there is also a responsibility for those that require resources to motivate their position via clear and understandable strategic objectives. Clear priorities and business plans are needed. It would really assist if we could have parties like the DA assisting in this process, rather than criticising everything and in that way trying to demoralise every South African. [Interjections.]

Matters that are critical have to be separated from those that would be ``nice to have’’. Short-term activities have to reinforce long-term plans. This is one area that seemed to be problematic in a number of instances. I am happy to report that plans and the implementation thereof are afoot to try and address this problem.

It has also emerged that another area that needs further attention is that of policy guidelines, like appropriate accommodation for committee activities; use of travel facilities, use of business class, economy class and so forth; international and regional membership of associations; insurance and car hire, and funding of ad hoc committees, etc. As we proceed we have identified the problems, and the problems are being addressed and policies around issues like donor funding are being developed.

In order to undertake these activities, Parliament has often had to have hearings, consider departmental reports, visit some departments, and talk to people that are entrusted with managing Government departments. The national political agenda demands that we partake fully in the African Union and Nepad, and in the formation of the African Parliament. We have to define our role so as to have a good idea of activities that we shall participate in yearly, so as to allow reasonable forecasting for purposes of budgeting. We have to list activities that we shall participate in and their frequency and provide budget estimates.

The problem of sound equipment has been mentioned by the DA but destructively so. We had to save so as to address our macroeconomic problems as a whole and, in the process of addressing the macroeconomic problems, we endured these deficiencies. We have the best macroeconomic system in the developing world. It is because of those sacrifices that we had to make that we have the side effects with regard to things such as the malfunctioning of our sound system, which is receiving attention.

To this end, R2 million has been allocated and hopefully this will soon be a problem of the past. Computer equipment for committee chairs and support staff to the tune of R1 million are a welcome addition as well. There is about R10 million allocated to staff, which is a concern of Mr Ellis, and that concern is being addressed.

However, clearly, more organised input from members of Parliament is necessary to improve the efficiency of Parliament. The legislature must be confident that it is sufficiently involved in directing its own institutional development and that resources at its disposal are adequate to meet the high expectations of people who voted for us. To empower budget holders, including committee chairpersons and committee support staff, a recommendation was made by the budget subcommittee to the finance management office to arrange training in the planning and budget process as well as in the budget software.

The chairperson of the budget subcomittee, Comrade Billy Nair, has assured me that this will not be unreasonably rejected. Definitely, we shall push back the frontiers of poverty together, forever. [Applause.] Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, it does rather seem as if we are heading for an election, and the political speeches are going pretty well here today. Today we are debating a Vote that is crucial to each and every political party, to each and every individual member and in fact to South Africa as a whole because how we perform here at Parliament affects the country as a whole.

Parliament’s budget for 2003-04 shows a substantial increase of some 42% from the last year’s allocation, but this, of course, takes into account the inflation and various other things, but there is, included in this, a provision for the much-needed refurbishment of the National Assembly Chamber and, of course, this would take into account the sound system as well.

The overall increase is welcomed if it enhances Parliament’s ability to achieve its aims which, we are told, are to provide the support services required to fulfil its constitutional functions, and to assist political parties to secure administrative support and service constituents to provide members of Parliament with the necessary facilities. These are lofty ideals for any parliament anywhere in the world and even more so for our Parliament that has really only existed in its current form since 1994. Although many aspects of our Parliament have improved over this time, especially since Mr Charlton introduced several new measures to ensure the smooth functioning of the process, there are still numerous problems and difficulties that impact negatively on the ability of members to execute their constitutional functions and I will refer only to the most important of these.

There is no doubt in my mind that the facilities provided to members are still grossly inadequate and I will deal with some of these inadequacies in detail. Let me start by pointing out that, yet again, the involvement of political parties in the budgetary process leaves much to be desired. There have been many improvements but the budget process is still haphazard. Not enough time is made available to political parties to make their inputs to management and to the Presiding Officers well in advance of crucial decisions being taken.

The remuneration packages of members must be improved dramatically as a matter of urgency. Of course, such a statement will draw the inevitable accusations of being on a gravy train, but the reality is that there are numerous members who have to rely on other sources of income to execute their duties, which is extremely difficult given that Parliament sits most of the year. In addition, the time served as a member leads to that member being divorced from the business world and a return to earlier professions is often made impossible by the situation. Furthermore, the inadequacy of our packages has meant that Parliament continues to haemorrhage some of its best members to the private sector, leading to a less effective Parliament. How can we hope to execute our constitutional mandate if some of our best and brightest leave on a sustained basis?

That being the case, members who retire or leave Parliament have to fall back on their pension payouts. These can only be described as pitiful as members who have served for 10 years are left with ridiculous, low monthly pensions of some R4 000. That is certainly not a living wage. It is therefore absolutely crucial that members’ pension benefits be increased dramatically and very urgently. The current pension system serves as a deterrent to prospective parliamentarians and we cannot hope to attract top- quality people to this institution under these circumstances.

Members have for a long time asked that serious consideration be given to providing them with a housing subsidy. It is frequently forgotten that members have to run two homes - one in their constituency and one here in Cape Town. Consideration also needs to be given to car subsidies, as politicians generally require motor vehicles both here in Cape Town and in their constituencies. Members’ travel benefits are totally inadequate. Many of us live far away from Cape Town, and even if we do live close by, our allocated constituencies are far away. Members do not receive anywhere near enough travel tickets and we have been fighting this issue for several years to little or no avail. Despite all the motivation provided by the Joint Subcommittee on Support for Members and from the Chief Whips’ Forum, Parliament ignores the plight of the member. And once again Treasury has apparently declined the motivation for additional travel facility allocation. This causes major stress in the lives of individuals, especially those who are committed to carrying out their duties at all levels responsibly.

These inadequacies should be improved immediately. In addition, administrative complexities with regard to the receipt and issuing of travel tickets further complicate and encumber our ability to travel in pursuit of our duties to our constituents and our political parties. Even though the budgetary allocation in respect of members’ support has been increased substantially this year, there are still problems in respect of secretarial support for members. Other parliaments around the world have on average one secretary per member. That is certainly not the case in our Parliament where the secretarial support has to deal with multiple members. This is not an optimal situation as it not only places pressure on the existing staff, but also makes life extremely difficult for members.

Although Parliament’s programme has improved somewhat and political parties are more involved with the scheduling process, much time is still being wasted as we would certainly spread our workload better and more effectively. There are times when we are scratching around for work for sittings, and there are times like this week when we are sitting on five occasions. This is not optimal and detracts from our ability to service our constituents.

There are also, of course, problems with facilities for members and I think more specifically for our members with disabilities. I have fought for years now for access from the Good Hope building down to here to be sorted out, for example, because of things like cobblestones. There is Dr Woods, who has a problem. He is crippled and he finds it extremely difficult to get here on a daily basis. Ten years down the line, nothing has happened.

The past year in Parliament has been one of many challenges. Foremost of these has been the floor-crossing debacle leading to the majority party increasing its number of seats to constitute a two-thirds majority, which one would hope it treats with respect and circumcision. [Laughter.] Sorry, circumspection. There has also been the unseemly sight of ``crosstitutes’’, as they have been referred to, forming single-member political parties to preserve their salaries and positions. Surely this makes a mockery of representative democracy and detracts from the status of this Parliament. All in all, the floor-crossing spectacle could not have enhanced public support, but it has enhanced the public’s perception that politics is a joke and that politicians are jokers.

During the past year, much of Parliament’s time and energy has been focused on the establishment of the African Union and its Pan-African Parliament. While we have no substantial objection, one has to ask: Is this achievable in view of the fact that the erstwhile OAU could not successfully handle just four institutions while the African Union is tasked with handling some 17 institutions? We can only hope that our efforts do not come to naught and the Pan-African Parliament remains a good idea that exists only on paper.

Members of Parliament have to find a way to more effectively engage in issues of importance. Let us look at issues such as HIV/Aids and poverty alleviation. These are the things that we as Parliament should be dealing with. Next year, there will be national and provincial elections and yes, we are getting to that time in our country. Parliament will be constituted fairly early, I believe, in the next year. I want to express the IFP’s sincerest hope that the next Parliament will provide more and better support services and facilities to members of Parliament and political parties. Without a large increase in these facilities we will struggle to meet our constituents’ expectations and our constitutional duties. We have come a long way since 1994, but there are many shortcomings and we have a long way to go to reach optimum performance in this Parliament.

I would like, too, to thank those members - and I think they are the Chief Whips’ Forum and the Presiding Officers - who are involved in the day-to- day activities, ensuring Parliament is running smoothly. I include there the Secretary to Parliament and all the secretarial staff, support staff and all the officials who make it possible for us to function. Notwithstanding our concerns, the IFP does support Parliament’s 2003-04 budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms N M TSHEOLE: Chairperson, Ministers present, Deputy Speaker, comrades and colleagues, I am trying to speak slowly so that I do not find myself making a Freudian slip as the hon Seaton did. [Laughter.]

I stand here to support the Budget Vote. I do not want to miss the opportunity of saying that. I want to start with it, just in case. I stand here to support the Budget Vote because, as the hon Seaton has said, we have come a long way, but the road ahead is still very long. In my language, we say that we know that when you have a long way to go, you have to have a mofago [lunch box].

You have to have provisions. There is no way in which we cannot support this Budget Vote because of the issues that still need to be addressed by this Parliament and we need this budget to address them.

I would like to start by making some acknowledgements. Having come the long way that the hon Seaton referred to, we started on low ground. I am going to speak here about language, interpretation, translation and all those issues related to the language policy of Parliament.

We have come a long way. When we came here, we found that there was only interpretation into English from Afrikaans and vice versa. We had to start where there was no foundation at all. Starting where there was no foundation at all does not just mean the provision of facilities in Parliament; it means drawing people from the market.

South Africa does not have a history of language practitioners. South Africa has never had a history of interpreters. We know that even in our courts in the country interpretation was just a by-the-way thing. The people’s language rights were never respected except for two languages. So, the efforts that have been made, the long way that we have come, the little progress that we have made cannot be ignored, and we cannot afford not to acknowledge that. [Interjections.] Yes, I am going to speak about the shortcomings that we still have.

An acknowledgement of achievements does not exclude the acknowledgement of shortcomings. Hon Ellis, we need to note that. Yes, there are things that need to be addressed, but we cannot ignore the efforts that have been made. We cannot afford to forget that we started with nothing, and before I move on to other issues, I would like to acknowledge the efforts which have been made by our interpreters.

With regard to all the efforts and all the things related to it, we know that interpretation requires a lot of training; training with regard to a number of issues that we deal with in Parliament. People whom we recruit for interpretation come from universities which have never made provision for services that they have to offer, that is, training them in interpretation on political and economic issues.

The type of training that our interpreters went through is the type of training which was just meant for people to be able to work in the garden. As the 1956 education policy said, ``We educate people so that they can wear suits and ties, but they will never be able to do anything for themselves.’’ We are trying to recover from that legacy. So, we know we have problems, but that does not mean we do not have to do anything and I would like to start on that footing.

The hon Gumede referred to the R2 million that has been budgeted for. I would like to make a comment. I do not know if that R2 million is going to be able to cover everything because, with regard to the language services in Parliament, we have a number of issues. In the first instance, this building itself has no room at all, with no provision for interpretation. The provision of interpretation at this Parliament requires the provision of space. It requires the breaking up of certain offices.

One always wonders whether the procurement for the construction of this building was ever investigated. I am going to refer to something that has no relationship to languages. When you come to this building where the NA is, you find that there is no provision for a kitchenette where glasses can be rinsed. Glasses that we use at this Parliament have to be rinsed in toilets.

I do not know who approved the procurement for the construction of this building where a five-storey building, which goes into the basement, can be without any provision for such facilities. I do not know whether the previous Parliament had glasses and people were drinking water from the toilets, but this is what we are experiencing here.

Now we come to the issue of languages. That was not on their minds either. If they could not think about the water which they were drinking, how could they have made provision for interpretation? One other thing we know is that they were closed. They never invited foreign speakers into this Parliament, which means that only two languages were always spoken at this Parliament. There was no way in which another member of a parliament from outside could come here and have interpretation done from French and other languages. That is why we have this. Those are the challenges that we are faced with at this Parliament.

The reason I am commenting on the budget is that I do not know if the R2 million will be able to provide booths for interpretation because that is the first thing that we have to do. Once we have provided the physical space for interpretation, we will have to employ people.

I hope that our tertiary institutions are listening because we have always, even in the language portfolio committee … Institutions complain about the new policy which has been promoted. We appreciate the participation of other parties, but it was spearheaded by the ANC to acknowledge multilingualism. Universities have not made an effort. Instead of making an effort towards the production of language practitioners, they have closed departments and claim that it is because of the language policy. It is because those professors out there are not making an effort to ensure that they can shift away from the old method or paradigm of producing people who are trained in languages to come and supply the market.

We know that OBE does not mean anything to them. We know that universities’ language departments are closing because they do not want to make a paradigm shift to train people for interpretation, translation and editing in our own languages, the 11 official languages. [Applause.]

We find universities closing. I hope that universities will be listening to this comment. We acknowledge and appreciate those universities like Stellenbosch and the Free State who have already started, but in the majority of the universities whom we thought would be empowered by multilingualism, the departments have closed. We should look at that.

The other thing that I would like to speak about is the quality of the sound system. The interpretation leaves a lot to be desired. We know we have come a long way, but we need to pull up our socks. The Deputy Speaker has indicated that before the end of this term of Parliament we shall have adopted a language policy. That is greatly appreciated. We hope that the interpretation facility that we have is going to afford us the opportunity to speak in the language of our choice.

At present I am not able to express myself in my own language because I know that I did not give the interpreters notice to be available for interpreting. The second thing is that with the load that we have, I have not been able to write two speeches to give it to them so that they can interpret my message the way I would like it to reach the people.

The issue of interpretation must be taken seriously. It is not only about me speaking, my language right is not only about me being able to express myself in my language, but those who I am speaking to must be able to hear me as well. [Applause.]

I have always looked around when in this House. When you speak, you look at your colleagues, and see that they do not put their earphones on their ears. In the beginning, I used to criticise that but now I understand. It is because of the quality of interpretation that we get here. You find that the message does not go through to the people and, at the same time, we find that as much as we encourage ourselves to speak our own languages, we know that we have never been encouraged to feel proud in expressing ourselves in our languages, but we have to be exemplary. We have to make an effort to speak in our own languages because we are not just speaking to ourselves here; we are addressing the people who have elected us, who have brought us to this Parliament. Whatever we are saying here must go to them. They must be able to hear. They must be convinced that we are doing what they have elected us to do.

I am looking at the time I have left. Let us also make efforts to learn the languages that we do not speak. We know there is provision for a language laboratory. We hope that when that language laboratory comes into being, hon members will go into it in order to be able to at least have communicative skills in a language other than their mother tongue. I repeat that I support the budget. [Applause.]

Mnr C H F GREYLING: Voorsitter, ek sal doen wat die vorige spreker aanbeveel en ook in my moedertaal praat. In wese gaan hierdie begrotingspos oor hoe die Parlement geld wat deur die belastingbetalers van Suid-Afrika aan ons toevertrou word, bestee en of dit wel nie net deursigtig nie, maar ook op ‘n verantwoordelike wyse geskied. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr C H F GREYLING: Chairperson, I will do what the previous speaker recommended and also speak in my mother tongue. In essence this Budget Vote deals with how Parliament spends money that is entrusted to us by the taxpayers of South Africa, and whether it is indeed done not only in a transparent manner, but also responsibly.]

The Budget Vote’s core objective is, in the first place, to provide Parliament with the necessary support service to enable it to fulfil its constitutional functions adequately.

Tweedens is die kerndoelwit om aan alle politieke partye die nodige administratiewe ondersteuning te gee om die kiesers te dien, en om derdens finansiële ondersteuning te bied aan alle politieke partye wat in die Parlement verteenwoordig word. Waar die partye sedert die aanvaarding van die oorloopwetgewing van 13 tot 17 in hierdie Huis vermeerder het, beteken dit ook ‘n groter finansiële las ten opsigte van partypolitieke leierskap, die verskaffing van kantore en dies meer. In hierdie verband kan die vraag met reg gevra word of partye met slegs een lid werklik vier kantore nodig het? ‘n Koukuskamer? Met wie koukus ‘n eenlidparty? Ek vra maar net. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Secondly, the core objective is to provide the necessary administrative support to all political parties in serving their constituents, and thirdly to provide financial support to all political parties that are represented in Parliament. Where the parties have increased from 13 to 17 since the adoption of the floor-crossing legislation, this also implies a greater financial burden with regard to party-political leadership, the provision of offices and so forth. In this regard the question can justifiably be asked as to whether parties with only one member truly require four offices? A caucus room? With whom does a one-member party caucus? I am merely asking.]

Last year when this Budget Vote was debated on 12 June, the Speaker voiced her disappointment with regard to the lack of a vision and mission statement for Parliament. In the meantime there has been some progress and, on 7 February 2003, this was discussed at a workshop which also saw the appointment of a task team to further pursue this issue. We trust that this effort will meet with the Minister of Finance’s requirements regarding this Budget Vote and establish a long-term vision and strategy for Parliament. Mr Harry Charlton, head of finance, and his staff have also been hard at work to get the budget process up to speed and we wish him all the best with this difficult task.

The objective of Programme 1 of this Vote, namely administration, is to build a democratic Parliament which is transparent and responsive to the electorate. Since the first democratic elections took place in 1994, remarkable transformation has occurred in the legislative process. However, during the next phase, Parliament’s service delivery will have to ensure adequate public participation in the parliamentary processes and reinforce the oversight and accountability of the executive.

In the last financial year, Parliament managed to achieve a number of objectives. For instance, 85 Bills were introduced and 69 were produced in printed form. A total of 150 events were hosted, while nearly 22 000 visitors were recorded.

Programme 2, namely members’ facilities, has also achieved quite a lot. Parliament managed to provide its members with the necessary telephone, travel and logistical facilities.

Die doel van program 3 is in ooreenstemming met artikel 57(2) van die Grondwet, wat bepaal dat finansiële en administratiewe hulp aan elke party wat in die Huis verteenwoordiging geniet, verleen word.

Hierdie program finansier ook die Parlement se ledegelde met betrekking tot sekere interparlementêre verenigings en ons betrokkenheid by internasionale programme. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The goal of Programme 3 is in accordance with section 57(2) of the Constitution, which determines that financial and administrative aid should be granted to each party that enjoys representation in this House.

This programme also finances Parliament’s members’ fees with regard to certain interparliamentary associations and our involvement in international programmes.]

In conclusion, on behalf of the New NP, I would like to thank the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker, the Chairperson of Committees and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees for the manner in which they conduct their duties. It is not always an easy task, but even with 17 different parties they still succeed in steering the ship through stormy waters.

To the Chief Whip and the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party, we say thank you for the spirit of co-operation that we enjoy in the Chief Whips’ Forum. I would also like to extend this to all other party Whips.

Aan die sekretaris van die Parlement, die sekretaris van die Nasionale Vergadering, asook die personeel by die Tafel; ‘n woord van dank vir u dienste wat u lewer, asook ons dank aan alle ander parlementêre personeel vir u diens, in die besonder aan diegene wat na ons veiligheid omsien.

Die Nuwe NP ondersteun hierdie begrotingspos. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[To the Secretary to Parliament, the Secretary of the National Assembly, as well as the Table staff; a word of thanks for the services that you render, as well as our thanks to all other parliamentary staff members for your service, and in particular to those that see to our security.

The New NP supports this Budget Vote.]

Dr J BENJAMIN: Chairperson, when we arrived at this Parliament in 1994, we changed the functions of the Rules Committee as a means to democratise this institution. In 1998, when Comrade Barbara Hogan was the chairperson of the budget subcommittee, all stakeholders had to make submissions and give motivations. Eventually a consensual budget submission was accepted, but unfortunately, the real needs of members went way beyond the budget guidelines determined by Treasury. We found that as we were in this process of democratisation, we came up against existing practices of financial officials, existing budget structure and process, and it proved to be a frustrating experience - year after year submitting our needs, and not experiencing any difference. That shows us that institutional transformation is not easy. It is a struggle that continues.

This Vote makes provision for members’ facilities under Programme 2. It provides for telephone, travel and other logistical facilities for members of Parliament and also funds medical aid contributions and travel facilities for certain former members. I am not sure what percentage goes to former members for their business flights. Spending on members’ facilities will consume 25,2% of the total expenditure of the Vote in 2003-

1. This of course is not that much compared with administration, that takes the bulk - 58,4%. Of the 58,4%, more that 30% goes to personnel. The expenditure of the programme has increased by 14,1% over the four years from 1999 to 2003. This increase is mainly due to the increase in the cost of air travel.

In addition to the cost of air travel, members have a range of other needs to allow them to function effectively, which until now have been eating away at their pockets. These include the cost of telephone calls, travel by motor vehicle, both within their constituencies and to and from airports, parking at the airports, and so on.

At this point, members have to pay for the cost of ink and paper when they use their own computers. They have to pay out of their pockets. I just want to give you an idea of how difficult it can be for some members to just get to the point of having a printed speech. This morning I could not attend my strategy meeting because I am a duty Whip. I had to run around looking for a way in which I could print out my speech. Our secretaries don’t come in that early. Eventually I found one secretary in the Old Assembly building - one of the NCOP’s secretaries - and if she had not been there, I wouldn’t have had a speech.

I am saying all of this, fully knowing that our process of making submissions goes on every year. Every year we try to include these inadequacies. I am saying that fully knowing that we will make those recommendations to the Rules Committee.

The needs for members’ facilities must be seen in the context of the transformation of Parliament from the top-down, undemocratic structure that we inherited, to one which is the custodian of democracy in our country and which allows also for the democratic process within the institution.

The former emphasis on Parliament as the custodian of the democratic practice means that the budget must make adequate provision for members to bring the business of Parliament to their constituencies and to facilitate the participation of ordinary constituency members in the business of Parliament. In this regard, the public has been encouraged, through the media, to participate in Parliament, but the real obstacle against participation of the poor has been the means for members to travel within their constituencies. The present budget does not make adequate provision for this aspect of the transformation of Parliament.

With regard to furthering internal democracy, some strides have been made in developing a computerised model of budgeting for Parliament, facilitating input by all stakeholders. However, with regard to members participating in the final submission through the sub-committee for members’ support and making representations to Treasury, the proposed structure still awaits full implementation.

Members’ facilities refer to the provisional resources to allow members to do their work effectively. In the beginning, since 1999, we inherited a budget system determined by officials, without due regard for the provision of facilities for members. We have, over the years, been faced with the difficulty of any additional facilities for members being subjected to a costing process that would inevitably push the budget beyond the guidelines provided by Treasury.

The result over the last nine years is that members’ facilities have fallen into a backlog, failing to keep up with the rise in price of petrol, telephone expenses and the continuous shortage of travel facilities to allow members to travel effectively between Parliament, home and their constituencies. A new computerised budgetary model promises to be more effective in taking into account members’ needs and allowing for the input of different stakeholders. Its full implementation is eagerly awaited.

With regard to adequate provision of IT facilities, Parliament has, in the past, managed to provide members with laptops, with the assistance of EU funding. An increasing number of members have begun to use their computers effectively and computer training courses have been provided to empower them in this regard. In the next budget cycle for the next Parliament, provision has to be made to supply members with adequate IT support since the EU funding has been depleted. It may be more cost-effective to supply members with desktops in the future, so that Parliament may unequivocally take responsibility for maintenance and supply of IT in a way which is integrated with the rest of the IT system in Parliament.

With regard to training, Parliament’s budget has taken over the responsibility for this item in accordance with the Skills Development Act. This means that the content and method of training is no longer subject to the conditions of an external funder, and courses offered have moved in the direction of becoming more meaningful, with certification, and providing opportunities for members to continue with formal studies. As a result of changes in this regard, members are more interested in training, and attendance and participation has improved.

Members are thankful for the increase in the budget of members’ facilities, which amounts to 14,1%, although this is by no means adequate to meet the backlog which has built up over the years since 1994. In a recent strategic planning session, the subcommittee for members’ support made the recommendation that the parliamentary research unit conduct an audit on the actual needs and requirements of members of Parliament, which would enhance their efficiency and effectiveness. This research should include a comparison of facilities provided to members by at least three African parliaments and three Western parliaments.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Having said everything that I have said, there is light at the end of the tunnel. We have established a Joint Rules Committee as a permanent structure allowing for different stakeholders to account and reach consensus. The new financial manager, with fresh ideas on how to budget in such a way that members may become effective and efficient, is part of this light. The presentations, chairpersons, and committees are part of this light. Improvements in training, in the long term, to deliver a Parliament using the best technology is a part of this light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, Speaker and hon members, the primary responsibility of Parliament is lawmaking and, further to that, to ensure that government departments follow the laws. In a democracy such as ours, laws are aimed at improving the quality of lives of all citizens. In the main, the laws are meant to ensure that all citizens are equal.

Pieces of legislation that are meant to realise the above objective are those such as the Domestic Violence Act, which seeks to target all forms of abuse in domestic relationships, and the Maintenance Act which seeks to protect and offer security to children. We have seen how Parliament has called departments that do not provide the necessary services to account to make sure that people are provided for. Portfolio committees have visited areas and provinces that needed such pepping up, as was the case with the Eastern Cape recently.

Members of Parliament have never pulled their punches at question time. Members of the executive have been called to account individually and severally for their portfolios. The reconfiguration of Parliament in the wake of the floor-crossing exercise was handled with the greatest measure of competence and promptness by Parliament. Those involved deserve our gratitude for executing the task so well. It is also worth making it known that Parliament was one of the only two legislatures that reported the completed floor-crossing exercise to the IEC on time, yet it is this legislature that had more work to do, with some parties growing, others diminishing in representation, still others seeing the light of day, and the number of represented parties growing from 13 to the present 17.

Parliament has been equal to the task of providing services and support to members within the limits of the existing resources. Notwithstanding that, we in the UCDP feel that much can still be done. The remuneration of stand- in leaders of parties whose national leaders are doing duty elsewhere in the country needs to be looked into. Such parties have grown from two to four in this current Parliament and there might be more in future.

There is much that Parliament is doing to capacitate members in training on issues such as the application of Rules and procedure, personal financial management, computer training and many more. All these are meant to make members better able to cope as individuals and to serve their constituencies better. That our Parliament holds its own in the family of legislatures across the globe is borne out by the number of international agreements tabled in the House. As signatory to these agreements, South Africa is an actor on the global stage of politics, and all this through Parliament.

The trouble taken in trying to level the playing field in presenting motions and members’ statements is noted with appreciation and, as such, our hope is kept alive that in future the question of speaking time will be addressed as in other democracies internationally where both equity and proportionality are considered without the latter being the sole curtain brought down on the matter. After all, Parliament is the place of vigorous debate by all involved.

The UCDP supports Budget Vote No 2. [Applause.]

Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson, Madam Speaker and hon members, this Budget Vote forms the pinnacle of the structure and operations of our work here at Parliament. As parliamentarians, as representatives of the people, we are charged with the responsibility of being accountable for our actions and to discharge our responsibilities in a responsible way.

Not only is Parliament constitutionally obliged to exercise a critical function of oversight over the executive and other legislative functions, but it also fulfils an integral function in sustaining our democracy. In this Parliament, the 16 political parties represent a variety of ideologies, perspectives and ideas. In such a system of multiparty democracy, it is thus to be expected for a wide range of opinions to emerge on the role of Parliament in our ever-changing society.

It is important for all parties to recognise the progress that has been made to transform this institution from what it used to be in 1994, but the sustained efforts to enhance its oversight role should also be acknowledged. Previous speakers in this debate have referred to the mechanisms in place in order to achieve this. In this context, we can rightfully claim that nine years into our democracy, ground-breaking work has been done by this Parliament to continuously strive towards the objective of proper oversight. As far as the prevailing international practice is concerned, we are acknowledged as being in a league of our own.

It is important to accept that oversight should not only be restricted to selective areas of interest and excitement. During the past few weeks, we have heard a lot of hype from certain opposition parties claiming that Parliament is not executing its oversight function properly and that the institution is being undermined. This misconstrued perception needs to be examined in the context of the nature and the role of opposition parties in this House. The vibrancy of any multiparty democracy is dependent on the contribution of all role-players, including the opposition and, as such, this democracy requires an opposition that is critical, though constructive; independent of Government but patriotic towards the country; genuinely committed to nation-building without yearning for the privileges enjoyed under apartheid, and an opposition that resists clamouring for value systems and a style of governance exercised by the previous regime.

The nature of our parliamentary work requires members of Parliament to perform duties inside and outside the House. It thus remains vitally important for all parliamentarians to participate in parliamentary processes. Too often, situations arise in which members from certain parties fail to attend crucial portfolio committee meetings and, because of their absence and lack of participation, fundamental decisions affecting the lives of our people are taken. In their absence, the legislative and oversight processes continue.

The irony, though, is that some of these members emerge in society as activists for one or other cause and are acclaimed in certain quarters as being exemplary MPs. This is while they fail to utilise the very forum they were elected to. Instead, they cry foul that Parliament is being undermined and fails in its oversight function, whilst they are seldom here, if ever, to make a contribution to improving the situation. [Applause.]

Since the advent of democracy, the ANC has deliberately embarked on a process to remain in contact with the electorate. This is being done through various forums designed to sustain contact with the people. Constituency periods form a very important part of oversight and allow members of Parliament to evaluate the effectiveness of Government programmes and also to evaluate the progress made to address the historical imbalances in order to push back the frontiers of poverty. This organisational experience and approach of the ANC has had positive spin-off effects for all parliamentarians. It allows MPs to approach and interact with the people and government departments and, in so doing, they are able to analyse and evaluate departmental performances. The constituency periods have also enabled MPs to become aware of issues affecting and influencing the lives of the people. In quite a few instances this awareness has allowed members to make a more informed contribution to the debates in Parliament.

The operationalisation of Rule 105 which deals with members statements has provided members with an opportunity to raise matters affecting their constituencies. However, the system of reporting on constituency work requires further attention. A need exists for Parliament to co-ordinate a process where the constituency reports from members are properly engaged and evaluated. The risk exists that if political parties do not co-ordinate the current system of reporting, valuable information gained during constituency weeks will be lost.

Parliament, as the assembly of the people, is very reliant on a management structure that shares the same commitment it has towards fulfilling our constitutional mandate. Without the necessary support from management in creating an enabling environment for members to execute our duties, public representatives will fail the people who elect them. It is thus of paramount importance to continue empowering this vital component of the administration in order for them to perform their duties according to sound management principles.

Challenges that exist should be dealt with expeditiously by taking firm decisions coupled with prompt implementation strategies. We should appreciate and encourage the current efforts of this management to improve the functioning and work of Parliament.

We heard earlier in the debate a few comments that were passed that made it seem as if we were sitting in a dysfunctional Parliament. This impression needs to be corrected. We need to recognise measures undertaken to have a more sound recruitment policy in place, improved access control at parliamentary villages, an improved security monitoring system, an improved budgeting process and also tighter financial management. All these processes needs to be welcomed. This will contribute, to a great degree, to our efforts to work tirelessly to push back the frontiers of poverty and to ensure a better life for all.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, multipartyism is an important hallmark of democracy the world over, and particularly in Africa where parliamentary systems are not always of the best. [Interjections.]

On a recent visit to Zimbabwe, it became quite clear that the people really do appreciate it when they see a delegation coming from South Africa that is made up of different parties. They are surprised to find that delegations coming to them actually behave normally and don’t fight each other, and that it is normal. I believe this is a very important message that we send from time to time to the world, not only to Azania.

Our Parliament is a significant player in Africa, in the nonaligned world and in the world in general. I want to pay special tribute to our Presiding Officers who play an important part in carrying the flag of democracy in the world whenever this happens.

I believe that one of the things that has really spoilt our democracy recently is the floor-crossing phenomenon. I believe that we should waste no time, as this Parliament, in abolishing floor-crossing. It has done us a lot of harm, and I believe it should not be allowed. I believe that democracy must be linked to the will of the people outside and we must never just do a floor shuffling in the House irrespective of what the voters say to us. [Interjections.]

I want to refer to time allocation. This is a sore point because we believe that more time should be given particularly to smaller The parties. I acknowledge the argument of proportionality, but I fear that we are getting to a point where the ruling party wants to be listening to itself. In other words, there is no dialogue. There is no discussion. They just want to talk one after the other. There is no debate in that way. I believe that, in the interests of debate, a little more time should be given to others so that you can hear and you can have a debate. A debate is not made up of people debating from one side for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, or 30 minutes. I don’t think that is a debate.

I believe that the decorum of this House is improving and this must be encouraged. The behaviour of our members in the House is becoming better and better, despite what has been said a few minutes ago. I believe it is improving.

I want to say that the question of attendance is a sore point. The attendance is very poor in this House. There are times when departments have invited a lot of people, and you find that the gallery is full, but the House is empty. I don’t think this does justice to the House. [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chair. Parliament has successfully completed another financial year. The National Assembly and the NCOP have proudly performed their duties, within the budget received, to the best of their abilities. It has managed to set a global example of true and well-managed governance of a multiparty system, showing the world that living in diversity is possible.

The MF is extremely pleased about the transparency and the accessibility that we may boast about. By achieving seats through democratic elections, harnessed by our national Constitution, it is promising and encouraging to note that there is interaction with the public on Government activities and programmes. This places confidence in the communities that we are here representing their best interests, and it further allows the public to make inputs so that we may monitor and ensure delivery to the benefit and satisfaction of our people. Parliament Live, with its accessibility, has also facilitated greater knowledge of parliamentary activities among the South African citizens.

With such a close watchful eye on our activities, the MF feels that the decorum of the two Houses receives strict attention. Action has always spoken louder than words. Thus, discipline, attentiveness, punctuality and respect in the House need to be upheld at all times.

The functions of various committees and departments that allow Parliament to function effectively has been performed competently, in terms of which the MF wishes to see the standard maintained in the forthcoming financial year.

As much as our Parliament tries to meet the needs of all parties, which is highly appreciated, the MF would like to share its concern with regard to representation and budget allocation to the smaller parties such as ourselves. Minimum talk time handicaps us from actively and effectively participating in the House’s debates, and minimum allowances hinder our performance to a great extent. The MF feels that serious attention should be given to these factors, and hopefully with effective results. The need for car allowances, housing subsidies, pensions and air tickets has to be looked into urgently.

The MF wishes Parliament well in the forthcoming financial year, in its endeavours for effective management and delivery and fully supports the Budget Vote. Thank you to Madam Speaker, the Deputy Speaker and the Presiding Officers for their kind co-operation with all parties. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, hon Madam Speaker, as a rule, a parliament has two core functions, namely that of legislation and that of oversight. The National Action, however, attributes an unwritten but very important third function to the South African Parliament; a function which is of equal and perhaps more significant importance given the young age of our democracy and the multicultural nature of the South African society. Let me explain. In 1994 a multiparty agreement was reached at the negotiation table in Kempton Park, finalised with the adoption of the new Constitution in 1996. This formally put an end to a long period of negotiation, of bringing to the table the interests of the country, but also the interests of the different peoples and communities of South Africa.

But, this does not mean the dialogue has ended. This does not mean that every community’s interests and aspirations have been enshrined finally in a piece of paper, only now to be applied in practice. No, the people of South Africa, the communities in their diversity, are still talking to each other and are still involved in a sort of ongoing process of dialogue and negotiation. And Parliament is the main venue for this important process - a rendezvous, the marketplace for the coming together of the different communities of our country.

Our proportional voting system serves this purpose, enabling not only geographical communities, but also cultural communities to be represented around this important table.

Die groep van 63 bepleit ‘n opvolgskikking in Suid-Afrika, ‘n weer in oënskou neem van dit waaroor in 1994 onderhandel is. Dit het meriete. Die Nasionale Aksie bepleit ook sekere grondwetlike wysigings wat ware demokrasie in Suid-Afrika sal verstewig. In ‘n sekere sin, egter, is ons hier in die Parlement elke dag besig met ‘n opvolgskikking. Ons is elke dag besig om die kontoere uit te beitel van hoe die verskillende belange van ons diverse samelewing behartig moet word, hoe soms botsende belange teenoor mekaar uitgebalanseer moet word en hoe minderheidsbelang en meerderheidsbehoefte geharmoniseer moet word.

Daar is egter enkele struikelblokke op die weg. Die eerste is meerderheidsarrogansie: wanneer van hierdie plek ‘n blote kykweer gemaak word van wat die ANC reeds in sy koukuskamer besluit het, sonder die openheid vir die voorstel en die stem en die belange van ander. Die tweede is opposisie-arrogansie: blote raas- en skree-opposisie sonder meer, à la die DA, volgens die Westminster-styl. Dit ontlok veel eerder ‘n nydige reaksie en is teenproduktief. Fight back'' moet plek maak virfight for’’. Dit open nuwe horisonne. Die derde ene is koöptering deur die meerderheid, soos by die Nuwe NP. Dit laat die eie stem verlore gaan en word te maklik ``His master’s voice’’.

Die Nasionale Aksie, ook wanneer hy volgende jaar met ‘n hele span verteenwoordigers terugkom, sal hierdie hoogste Raadsaal gebruik om die belange van hulle wat ons gemandateer het onbevange te verteenwoordig, om saam te bou aan die ongekarteerde weë waarlangs alle Suid-Afrikaners in harmonie vorentoe moet stap en om die funksie van oorsig oor die uitvoerende gesag so uit te oefen dat elkeen sal weet die NA speel nie vir die pawiljoen nie, die NA krap nie waar dit nie jeuk nie. Die NA lê vinger op die wond wat werklik behandeling nodig het.

Dan wil ek kortliks die tweede saak aanspreek. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The Group of 63 calls for a follow-up agreement in South Africa, a review of that which was negotiated in 1994. This has merit. The National Action also calls for certain constitutional amendments which will strengthen true democracy in South Africa. However, here in Parliament we are, in a sense, engaged in a follow-up agreement every day. Every day we are engaged in carving the contours of how the different interests of our diverse society should be managed, how at times conflicting interests should be balanced and how minority interest and majority need should be harmonised.

There are, however, a few obstacles in the way. The first is the arrogance of the majority: when this place is turned into a mere action replay of what the ANC has already decided in its caucus room, without an openness to a suggestion and a voice and the interests of others. The second is the arrogance of the opposition: an opposition who is merely shouting and screaming, à la the DA, according to the Westminster style. This much rather evokes an angry response and is counterproductive. Fight back'' should make way forfight for’’. It opens up new horizons. The third is co-option by the majority, as in the case of the New NP. This causes one’s own voice to remain unheard and to become ``His master’s voice’’ too easily.

The National Action, also when it returns with an entire team of representatives next year, will use this highest Chamber to represent, impartially, the interests of those who have mandated us, to build together the unchartered roads along which all South Africans should walk onwards in harmony, and to perform the function of oversight of the executive in such a manner that everyone will know that the NA is not playing to the pavilion, the NA is not meddlesome. The NA puts its finger on the wound that actually needs treatment.

Furthermore I want to address the second matter briefly.]

In the pre-1994 dispensation the public representatives’ remuneration Act laid down certain requirements for participation and attention by MPs. At present, it is only a matter for the party structures to discipline their members. There are members of bigger parties constantly shining in their absence, but there are members of smaller and single-member parties who are not represented in committees, who do not attend committees, debates or plenary sessions, and who in effect use public money destined to build capacity for parliamentary work for own-party campaigning. This is not clean governance.

The NA asks that the attendance and participation of all members and parties should be made available to the media and we propose that stricter regulations, or even legislation, should be considered in this regard.

The NA supports the Budget Vote for Parliament. We thank you.

Mr B W KANNEMEYER: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Let me start by assuring the National Action that the ANC will defend its right to dream about bringing more members next year to Parliament. Hon Mike Ellis earlier, in response to the Deputy Chief Whip, denied the character of the DA that was sketched by the Deputy Chief Whip, but then continued by starting with one sentence thanking and applauding the staff of Parliament in the different areas and he concluded with another sentence thanking the people who are trying so hard to make Parliament work. But in between those two sentences his entire speech was devoted to shooting down every single constructive thing that is attempted in this Parliament.

Following up on that, he then does not realise and acknowledge the fact that there are people who are trying their utmost under extremely difficult conditions to make this Parliament work, that has inherited a system that was not designed to represent the people and to do what it’s supposed to do.

In moving on, let me start with the following quote by Simeon Strunsky in

1. He said that ``people who want to understand democracy should spend less time in the library with Aristotle and more time on the buses and in the subway’’.

In my contribution to this Budget Vote I would want to deal with oversight work generally - and I don’t think I’m going to spend too much time on that because a number of members have touched on it, particularly the Deputy Chief Whip and one or two others - but more so with the work of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts as well.

I want to reiterate what the Deputy Chief Whip has indicated by saying that there is a general perception that the oversight work of Parliament is limited to dealing with instances of fraud and corruption. Unfortunately, neither the media nor the opposition is playing a role in correcting this wrong and misplaced perception of what oversight work in Parliament is all about. A further problem with this narrow focus is that it undermines the value and importance of the general work of oversight processed by this Parliament.

In just looking at one portfolio committee, for instance, communications, a broader understanding of the interactive nature of the oversight work of Parliament becomes clearer. For the year 2002 the Portfolio Committee on Communications, in processing only four pieces of legislation, engaged in more than 200 hours of public hearings, had more than 130 submissions from the public as well as interest groups and spent days on deliberations. When considering that this is happening in every single committee of Parliament, it is clear that the oversight role played by Parliament is not only a post facto one, as some would want to suggest, but indeed an interactive one and ensures that the voice of the public is considered in the formulation of policy into legislation.

During the same year under review, 2002, Parliament passed more than 70 pieces of legislation and a total of 376 committee reports were adopted and published. Coupled with this is the totally accessible nature of Parliament, as witnessed by the statistics relating to gallery attendance for parliamentary sittings. Excluding attendance to standing committee and portfolio committee meetings, more than 16 500 people visited Parliament last year. I do not have statistics to back up the following, but I am convinced that that may be more than the number of people that visited Parliament in any given year prior to 1994.

The aforementioned is illustrative of the extent of the participatory nature of this Parliament. In the first democratic Parliament, with the adoption of the Constitution, as well as the Rules of Parliament, the oversight role of Parliament was clearly and specifically provided for. This work was further enhanced and is currently proceeding under the leadership of Chairperson Chohan-Khota in the Ad Hoc Committee on Oversight and Accountability, as they have engaged the contents of the Corder report in continuing the debate on arriving at a best practice framework for oversight for our very young democracy.

In the same way we have advanced our work on financial management oversight and accountability. The promulgation of the Public Finance Management Act has introduced an even more stringent compliance framework and places focused responsibility on the executive, their departments, institutions and Parliament. The requirement of strategic plans, outputs, service delivery indicators, actual performance and outcomes ushers in a new era of performance measurement and should enable Parliament and the public to determine whether the funds voted in Parliament are achieving their intended objectives.

It is important to state this, since too often we forget the direct link between oversight and service delivery. As indicated by the President and the Minister of Finance at the beginning of this year, negligent conduct or mismanagement by Government officials is what leads to my mother in Mossel Bay not receiving her pension on time or the schoolchildren that were here earlier not receiving their books on time.

Looking at the role and function of this committee in the apartheid era - that is the Standing Committee on Public Accounts - the African National Congress can indeed hold its head high in the full knowledge and wisdom that we have travelled a long way since then and, despite the occasional hiccups, have indeed improved every step of the way.

Let me now just focus a little on the work of the committee. The committee strives to ensure, amongst other things, that institutions at the national level, through our oversight and interaction work, constantly improve the quality of their financial management, especially internal controls, and that national departments remain within budgetary constraints and expend funds in accordance with purposes determined by Parliament. There are a few others, which I’m not going to go into.

The committee further considers all accounts and financial statements of public-sector institutions, constitutional bodies and other public entities, as well as all reports referred by Parliament and reports of the Auditor-General referred by Parliament.

Despite the very clear functions and powers of Scopa, as outlined in Rule 206 of the National Assembly and Scopa’s own business plan, there are unfortunately still those that are single-minded in their attempts to limit the work of this committee to the monitoring of fraud and corruption in the public sector. Whilst agreeing that this indeed is an important element of the work of Scopa, it must never be secondary to the pursuit of creating better systems and control environments in state institutions since the achievement of that would serve to limit the space for those of corrupt and fraudulent intent that still find themselves in the Public Service.

It is generally accepted theory that the most effective controls are indeed those that exist inside institutions. However, as indicated earlier, it is not in the interests of the more cynical amongst us to keep themselves busy with these important tasks that do not attract media coverage and sound bites.

While maintaining our key focus that our key function should be to constantly improve the quality of financial management, especially internal control systems, let me deal with some aspects that make dealing with incidences of fraud and corruption difficult under our current conditions. One of these difficulties is the perception on the part of some of us that any semblance or suspicion of mismanagement must lead to a call for the head of the executive authority. This was again witnessed yesterday, for instance, by the DA blaming the Minister of Finance for the calculation errors in the inflation index.

But also, as governing party members we need to realise and accept that a critical assessment of the financial management of departments and state institutions is not necessarily a criticism of the relevant Minister or NEC member. It is an execution of the task defined by some as a very necessary irritation and it certainly responds to our mandate of continually improving the Public Service.

The attitude on the part of certain opposition parties that everyone else is innocent until proven guilty, except when it comes to Government or Government officials who are first pronounced guilty on the basis of innuendos and suspicions, creates a further serious problem in dealing with these matters. Hon Frolick dealt with the type of issues that are expected, and attitude from an opposition.

Mr M J ELLIS: Not very well.

Mr B W KANNEMEYER: You are quite right, because the President deals much better with it in the ANC Today of two weeks ago. The President says the following:

The ANC made the point that this stereotype necessarily dictated that some in our country would proceed from the position that our government was corrupt as alleged, unless it proved itself to be innocent … The false allegation of wrongdoing by the ANC was what was vigorously implanted in the public mind … The same stereotypical conviction about our government being corrupt, unless it proves itself innocent, has re- surfaced with regard to the defence procurement decided by our government in 2000.

Accordingly, they even go further. The President continues to say that now the Office of the Auditor-General is being accused of having doctored the report he presented to Parliament, by omitting some details contained in an earlier draft. The President made some of these remarks two weeks ago, yet today in Parliament the wisdom of the President is again proved by the hon Mike Ellis referring to the current allegations of a losing bidder in the arms procurement package of editing of the JIT report as the editing scandal. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]

The SPEAKER: Chairperson, hon members, in the 10th year of democratic South Africa’s Parliament and in what may be our last Budget Vote, it is appropriate to reflect on our achievements, but also to consider the challenges the next decade will bring. In addressing the latter, we must take into account that these challenges will not descend freshly on the new Parliament but are before us now. It is our responsibility in the months ahead to lay a sound basis, without being prescriptive, for the postelection Parliament which will, of course, determine its own direction.

It is inevitable that, faced with the day-to-day difficulties of functioning with inadequate resources, inappropriate facilities and systems, and poorly managed support, we may be overwhelmed by frustration and fail to see the considerable achievements of this Parliament.

In 1994 for those of us - and it was the majority - who had never previously entered these buildings and who had no experience of governance, our concern would have been how we would be able to cope with responsibilities and tasks of whose dimensions, scope and detail we were still unaware. Over 40% of those members of Parliament are still with us here, 10 years later. So, we clearly did survive. Hon members, think back and consider where we are now. We will then begin to appreciate the true measure of the incredible progress we have made as members of this Parliament. We have enacted a very large number of laws. The number, although considerable, is not as important as their nature and substance.

We have changed the legal framework of this country; in the process we have transformed this society and given it new direction. We have altered the fundamental basis of our legal system to one that complies with the principles in our Constitution and human rights order. There is a lot that remains to be done, but no one can deny the achievement.

Committees have diligently gone through Bills and rewritten them more extensively than in most parliaments. Very often Bills have been sent back to departments for correction, or to meet a significant deficiency. We have made improvements in Bills sent to Parliament without the necessary skills in draftmanship that are at the disposal of the executive. We have also done so without the experience and knowledge that existed within the Public Service that we inherited. This is a formidable achievement, yet we do not appear to notice.

We have received praise on our continent, as well as within the established democracies. We have contributed significantly to the legal framework as well as to the Constitution, which is now admired and which many countries strive to emulate. We may need to improve our code of conduct, but not many parliaments, even in the established democracies, have any code of conduct.

In addition, we have, to an extent, transformed the institution of Parliament itself. It is no longer a rubber-stamp parliament, functioning as a facade for an authoritarian executive presidency. The inclusivity implicit in our chosen electoral system has guided the way in which we operate. There is no minimum requirement that bars participation in all activities.

Front benches are allocated to a number of minority parties, in addition to the Official Opposition. Parties may choose to participate in any debate, though I am aware of and have heard and share the concern about inadequate time allocations. A rule that allows any member to participate in the proceedings of any committee but not vote, however, is not utilised sufficiently by the smaller parties.

Perhaps because most of us know no other way, we take as normal that all our proceedings are open and transparent. Many long-established democracies are still trying to achieve the same, especially that committee meetings are rarely closed in South Africa. This debate is itself rare. How many parliaments actually debate their Votes as we do here?

We have tried to extend public participation, but have a long way to go in engaging the general public rather than lobbyists. Agreement on an expanded language policy, which I hope we will agree to in the next fortnight, will assist, as has already been indicated.

However, we have erred in depending almost exclusively on the commercial print and the eletronic media to communicate. Parliament itself needs to reach out to the public directly, using radio and new technologies that are now available. We are finalising plans to do so. For example, it is possible for the public to see and hear programmes of our debates in a number of languages. In addition, members of Parliament will be able to sit in studios in these precincts and respond to questions from the public. It is hoped that pilot programmes will be run by the end of this year. So, members had better start honing their language skills. We can then begin to put in place and build the participatory democracy that is required by our Constitution.

In every budget debate and throughout the year, there are complaints about a lack of resources. I agree that we do not have the resources and support that Parliament needs, but I cannot agree with the context within which we often frame our complaints. Exactly who is to blame?

We need to link what we request from Treasury with what we want to achieve, how we intend to do so and over what period. We have failed to come together and put forward a vision for this Parliament. In these last few weeks every government department has tabled a strategic plan. Parliament is not a department of Government, but where is our strategic plan or the vision which we wish to realise? We have begun a process, as has already been said, but we need to complete that process.

We complain of a lack of resources, yet we do not use or manage what we have. As I informed the Joint Rules Committee a few weeks ago, nearly half the resources allocated to committees last year were not used, yet other committees doing excellent work are in dire need of additional funds.

We are negotiating a new agreement with the European Union for support, but resources will only be available in the new Parliament. An offer of a grant of $1,8 million - nearly R15 million - remained with the Chief Whips’ Forum for two years and was never referred to the Presiding Officers. [Interjections.] We hope, however, to finalise this shortly. But Parliament must be funded from the public purse and not foreign donors. We need, therefore, to come back to the question of what kind of Parliament we want to build.

In 1994, as I have indicated, our priority was justifiably to get the institution we found up and running, and this we have achieved. But is this what we want and what we need? Parliaments - indeed all institutions - evolve, taking into account constitutions, the political, economic and social power relations in society, and the circumstances, culture and objectives. What today is referred to as a Commonwealth system or tradition, reflects the evolution, not of South Africa, but of the British parliament to meet the needs of British society, including its imperial history.

Had apartheid South Africa remained part of the international community and participated in the international debates on good governance, democracy and human rights, it may be possible that we could have inherited an institution that was more than archaic ritual.

We adopted much of what we thought was Commonwealth practice and tradition without adequate consideration. This was inevitable, given the speed of the transfer of power to a democratic order, but we need now to seriously examine how appropriate the procedures, structures and cultures are that we have put in place.

Recently, I was looking at a document submitted to Commonwealth Ministers last year. It referred to the sovereignty of parliament and to other relationships within the institutions of governance, which run in total contradiction with our own Constitution, yet this was put forward as the ideal of democracy.

Democracy has shifted from representation by individuals to representation by political parties. This is emphasised in the proportional electoral system we agreed to in 1994. Yet we hanker after a constituency system appropriate to another period and electoral process. There are many other ways of ensuring accountability to the electorate and of servicing constituencies. Should we not even consider them in this Parliament?

We need a greater discussion amongst ourselves on what we mean by oversight and accountability. I hope the excellent work by the ad hoc committee will take us further and help us move away from the adversarial Commonwealth tradition.

In establishing our committees - and let us not ignore the excellent work that they do - we again drew on Commonwealth practice or systems of governance. We established committees for every Ministry, and with democratic exuberance allocated the same time, resources and support to each one, without considering what the issues were each had to consider, the legislative load in a particular session and the level of technical expertise and support that was necessary. How appropriate is this system still for integrated cross-sectoral policies and laws, and for exercising oversight over a developmental state?

A re-examination of our committee system is necessary and needs to be expedited before new vested interests are established after the 2004 elections. Financial, research and administrative support should be provided on the basis of programmes and workloads. We also need to consider whether each committee needs to meet throughout the year.

More controversially, I would submit that when the commission on remuneration of public representatives does its forthcoming evaluation, it be asked to consider providing differential scales for category A, B and possibly C types of committees, with appropriate and differential salary scales for chairpersons. On an ongoing basis, future parliaments will be able to determine which committees should be allocated to which category according to their needs and their priorities.

Our current problems and frustrations are compounded by a management system that leaves much to be desired. There has, however, been some improvement this last year, with appointments of a chief financial officer, an assistant secretary and a deputy secretary. However, we have not helped ourselves because, in the process of democratising decision-making, we have created a system of subcommittees that make the task of management difficult. We need to rationalise and simplify the policy-making process.

Members of Parliament are politicians and we should not try to micro-manage this institution. We have failed to set up a proper directing authority. Presiding Officers are supposed to ensure that agreed policies are being implemented, but this is proving increasingly difficult. Though other proposals were turned down, we have at least agreed to allow the chairpersons and deputy chairpersons of committees to facilitate the efficient functioning of committees. I wish them success.

The Presiding Officers of both Houses have repeatedly referred to the problems in the budgeting process within Parliament, but this remains to be addressed. Until and unless we address the problem of managing this institution, we will not be able to enhance the achievements of our first 10 years.

The challenges ahead extend beyond our borders, as new parliamentary institutions are in the process of being established. The South African Parliament will be hosting two important meetings of representatives from African parliaments at the end of this month. When we set up the SADC Parliamentary Forum some years ago, we provided for its transformation into a regional assembly. Now, as the African Union takes shape, we note that its essential building blocks are regional institutions, and we have to expedite the process of establishing the regional assembly as an organ within the SADC Treaty. In the next few days - and I stress ``days’’ - we will need to consider mechanisms in Parliament to take this process forward. The Pan-African Parliament also brings new challenges of building unity among the parliaments on our continent. On this continent we have a range of lawmaking traditions. In South Africa there is the English common law, Roman Dutch law and laws made subsequently, building a South African jurisprudence. We also have African customary law. In the last 10 years we have developed our legal system, guided by our Constitution.

But when we look at the continent we see there is a great deal more with different colonial legacies. There is the Code Napoléon, which those countries colonised by France inherited. There is a Portuguese code. We have Islamic law that has impacted on and is used in a number of African countries. The challenge is to identify and develop a common system of governance that will integrate the best of these systems with the values inherent in traditional African jurisprudence.

In our Constitution-making process, we thought we had developed the notion of ``sufficient consensus’’, and it certainly took us forward. But the principle of consensus is reflected in many African cultures. Among the Ashanti there is no long-standing word for voting - aba to is a neologism - because the driving force in traditional systems of governance was consensus.

Among the Akan people the focus was on participatory decision-making, hence the Akan proverb that one head does not hold council. Among Tswana-speaking people in our own region, the stones of the ``lekgotla’’ - where the governing body gathered - were placed in a circle to signify unity and inclusivity. One can juxtapose with this National Assembly Chamber, based on the Westminster system, which in its design reflects the confrontation between government and opposition, a confrontation that is played out regularly with those on the left set in an attack mode and those on the right in a defensive stance, neither of which enhances democracy or nation- building. [Interjections.]

Islamic law - sharia - is a principal component of many African countries. Sharia principles of governance are based on two concepts, namely shura: consultation, and ijma: consensus-building.

The challenge for all of us now is how we weave this very rich and enriching diversity together, giving something unique to our continent. We should be careful that we do not consider that what we are trying to do is create an African concept or tradition that only looks backwards, but that as we look forward we draw into the development of that tradition the best practices, the advances in humanitarian law and in universal concepts of democracy, and of good governance. All this is part of the challenge for the next decade.

We have to be aware that although we will not resolve this on day one we should note and be aware, also, of our heritage as we start creating the institutions on the continent. But, most importantly, we have to deal with our own shortcomings in this institution, and consider whether we are ready to meet the challenges outlined so ably yesterday by the hon Barbara Hogan and by many of you today. We have also to continue with the task of providing a forum of debate and exchange of ideas on which we can build unity in our nation.

As I have indicated already, overall, we have achieved much. For this, we need to thank the many members of staff who diligently carry out their responsibilities. We find these everywhere: in this Chamber and in the Office of the Secretary, notwithstanding the many complaints that we make.

The achievements I have spoken of, and there are more, are the result of the efforts of members of Parliament, Whips, committee members and chairs. To all of them we owe our thanks. Next year the electorate will have its say and express its thanks and appreciation wherever it believes it is deserved. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

               NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate) The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson, hon members, the National Small Business Amendment Bill has undergone extensive consultation and debate both inside and outside of Parliament. Last year, we took the proposed amendments to business forums across the country and received a number of inputs and recommendations, which were incorporated into the Bill.

The introduction of the National Small Business Amendment Bill took place in April 2003 and, since then, there have been public hearings which took place on 23 and 27 May. The issues coming out in these hearings, and the concerns of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, have all been taken into consideration in this Bill.

Members are aware that small business development is extremely important for the growth of the economy, the creation of jobs and to improve the levels of equity. The support of this sector by Government is therefore critical and is a priority. The House will recall that the development of this sector has been a priority since 1994, and one of the first pieces of legislation to come before this House was the White Paper on the National Strategy for the Development and Promotion of Small Business in South Africa, which was later followed by the National Small Business Act, Act 102 of 1996.

The amending Bill before us is amending certain provisions of the National Small Business Act. Apart from the technical elements aligning the Act with other pieces of legislation, for example, the Public Finance Management Act, the amendments essentially seek to give the Minister of Trade and Industry powers to facilitate the creation of a voice for small business and have this done in consultation with the business community.

This voice or advisory body is long overdue, as the void that was created by the liquidation of the National Small Business Council has never been filled. In order to improve our effectiveness in the support that we provide to the small business sector and in the creation of an enabling environment for small businesses, it is necessary that we as Government formalise and have a structured relationship between Government and a representative body of small business in the country.

The purpose of this body would be, among other things, to advise Government on critical issues such as the impact of current and new legislation on small business; identification of areas of market failure for small businesses, so that appropriate support and interventions can be made; providing advice on the constraints, and the needs as well as communication mechanisms to interface with small businesses, and methods to monitor support services to the small business sector.

The amendments also seek to streamline the role of Ntsika to focus on support programmes and to take away the policy aspects of Ntsika and house them within the DTI. During our consultations and discussions, we heard concerns expressed about Ntsika and I can assure members that we have already embarked on a process to rectify the situation. During the consultative process, there was general support for the amendments, and the requests made during this process to rephrase chapter 2 of the Bill so that it articulates the terms of reference of the advisory body, have been accepted. Therefore, as outlined in chapter 2 of the Bill, we will ensure that the establishment of this advisory body takes place within a reasonable time and that, through an open and transparent process of consultation, the constitution for the advisory body is determined. The provisions of the constitution are outlined in chapter 2, section 3.2, as are terms of reference for the advisory body.

We are convinced as a department that these amendments provide a legislative framework to underpin the DTI’s endeavours to create an enabling environment for small, medium and micro enterprises in South Africa. I therefore urge all members to support the National Small Business Amendment Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D LOCKEY: Deputy Chairperson, I rise to speak in support of the National Small Business Amendment Bill. At our 51st Annual Conference in Stellenbosch last year, the ANC instructed us as a Parliament and as a Government to work towards the substantial growth in small and micro enterprises.

This Bill is our first response to the challenges facing the small business sector since the collapse of the National Small Business Council. The Bill stipulates a number of critical areas which must be the focus of the work of the new advisory body. While the Bill is flexible, it is not an attempt to create yet another talk shop. We intend to create an institution that is representative of the small business sector which can begin to address the myriad problems facing this particular business sector.

I will now focus on some of the key areas that require urgent attention. Regarding business regulation, there are still a host of municipal by-laws that are currently used by local authorities to criminalise small traders. Many of these by-laws that govern small business inhibit the growth and development of this sector. There are currently no national standards set for small business development and regulation. The Centre for Development and Enterprise found that there have been more than 500 changes to the business regulatory environment over the past six years, and this has significantly increased the cost of doing business.

In the area of business infrastructure, there are also significant constraints for the development of small business. We believe that new opportunities must be explored to create more physical business infrastructure for small businesses. We must also explore opportunities in consultation with small business to create sites near major rail stations and taxi ranks. In the current shopping areas, there are also very few opportunities for small business and we believe that a quarter of trading space in this shopping centres should be made available to small business.

As a portfolio committee, we have had some very good proposals in this regard by the African Council of Hawkers and Informal Businesses. The enterprise density in South Africa is still extremely low. It is around 3,7%, according to the Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency. This could be attributed to the lack of sufficient small business infrastructure. The monthly rental in major shopping centres is around R300 per square meter. This is far too expensive for the majority of small businesses and we find that many of the small businesses in these centres are struggling to survive because of such high costs.

I will now focus on the area of skills. Research by the Southern African Entrepreneurship and Small Business Association found that small businesses employ around 50% of all employees in the formal sector and accounted for about 30% of the country’s GDP. This statistic is in line with the worldwide experience that indicates that particularly small businesses in the service sector are responsible for the highest percentages of employment creation. But, despite this, up to 80% of small businesses in South Africa fail because of issues such as Aids, crime and lack of management skills.

It must also be acknowledged that small businesses trade under extremely difficult circumstances, where disposable income is severely limited by high unemployment rates in the townships, and that they also compete against very powerful retail chains in South Africa.

Skills development in all areas of running a business must therefore be the key focus area of the new advisory body and other support agencies to small business. This could include joint ventures with big business, partnerships with Government and business, and mentorships where experienced entrepreneurs can assist new entrants into the entrepreneurial endeavour. Franchise opportunities also offer some opportunity, but I must caution that evidence is increasingly emerging of unscrupulous franchisers just being out there to exploit persons that buy these franchises from them. The Seven-Eleven case is one such example. We must take steps to protect persons buying franchises from such unscrupulous operators. In many instances, people are using their pension funds and their lifelong savings to acquire these franchise opportunities, and have lost everything in the process.

As a portfolio committee, we have also had some very good examples of how codes of conduct can be used in certain industries to assist operators in a self-regulating approach to improve services and the quality of their services to the client base. Co-operatives for the production and marketing of, for instance, agricultural produce are one such example that can also be used. We also believe that co-operatives offer an opportunity to combine the procurement power of a number of small operators to get a better discount from suppliers.

The issue of access is also very important. We believe that steps must be taken to create better access for small entrepreneurs to suppliers, and better access to market opportunities, for example, in the export market or the tourism market, which is one of our fastest-growing markets. We also believe that there should be better access to offerings by the DTI, and empowerment opportunities. Procurement opportunities offer another good case for us. The state procurement system is still largely unexplored as a mechanism to create a vibrant small business sector and as the most powerful vehicle to assist in particularly black-owned enterprises.

There are other constraints. The impact of high real interest rates and the cost of capital is an inhibiting factor. The impact of high administrative prices is another one. The Growth and Development Summit, over the weekend, has committed the Government to assessing the impact of this factor, in particular, on business viability in South Africa.

The advisory body, in terms of this Bill, must interact with Parliament, the DTI and other statutory bodies in pursuit of its objectives. It is also required to advise the Minister on the efficacy of support services to the small business sector. This would include valuable feedback on the work of support institutions like Ntsika, Khula and the National Manufacturing and Advisory Council.

It is our sincere hope as the ANC that the National Small Business Amendment Bill will begin the process of creating a viable, strong and prosperous small business sector in South Africa. We hope that this Bill will empower the small business sector to assist us in pushing back the frontiers of poverty. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: The hon member will be making his maiden speech in this House.

Mnr J L THERON: Agb Voorsitter, aan die DA wil ek graag my dank betuig vir die geleentheid wat my gebied word om hier in die Nasionale Vergadering van die Parlement te dien. Dit was ‘n voorreg om in die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies te dien, ‘n voorreg wat ek terdeë geniet het. Ek het waardevolle ondervinding daar opgedoen. In die besonder aan die agb Mnr Tony Leon my dank vir sy leierskap en visie wat my hoop en moed gee vir die toekoms. Ek is baie patrioties teenoor my land, Suid-Afrika, en sal graag my beste wil lewer om hierdie ‘n beter land te maak vir almal wat hier woon. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr J L THERON: Hon Chairperson, I would like to express my thanks to the DA for the opportunity that has been afforded me to serve here in the National Assembly of Parliament. It was a privilege to serve in the National Council of Provinces, a privilege that I have enjoyed. I have gained valuable experience. To the hon Tony Leon in particular, my thanks for his leadership and vision that have given me hope and courage for the future. I am very patriotic where my country, South Africa, is concerned, and would like to do my best to make this a better country for everybody who lives here.]

One of the most critical problems South Africa is experiencing is the unemployment situation. As we all know, 40% of South Africans, or 7 million people, cannot find jobs. Therefore, any good business-related legislation, like this National Small Business Amendment Bill, is very important for South Africa.

The DA supports the consultative approach to be followed to form the small business advisory body. We urge the Minister to speed up the process as far as possible to create a consolidated voice for small business in South Africa. It is also critical that this process leads to a representative advisory body to represent the broad small business sector in South Africa.

The DA also supports the more strategic focus for Ntsika. We are however perturbed by the fact that there are still a lot of problems at Ntsika. This was evident at the hearings that were held as well as at the briefing that was given on the Bill. Surely it is more than high time that the transformation process at Ntsika be concluded for the benefit of all business in South Africa.

All is definitely not doom and gloom at the Department of Trade and Industry. The DA knows, through its research, for instance, of all the positive results at the Namac Trust - the National Co-ordinating Office for Manufacturing Advisory Centres. There are more than 420 business service centres throughout South Africa where training and business information can be received. We know of all the success stories at Brain, the Business Referral and Information Network, Frain, the Fanchise Advice and Information Network, and Mac, the Manufacturing Advisory Centre programme. All the information is available in the Support for Small Business in South Africa publication of the DTI.

But this is surely not enough. We must not rest on our laurels. These services should still be enhanced and expanded, and building on success stories is of critical importance. The DA urges the Minister and the department to appoint only capable and well-qualified people to further the transformation process.

Dit is die taak van die Regering van die dag om ‘n duidelike raamwerk en gunstige klimaat vir ekonomiese groei en ontwikkeling van besigheid in Suid- Afrika te skep. Waar die kleinsakesektor ongeveer 40% van die bruto nasionale produk lewer, en daar meer as ‘n miljoen klein besighede in Suid- Afrika is, is die vraag wat die Adjunkminister moet beantwoord: watter nuwe aansporings kan die kleinsakesektor gebied word om meer werkgeleenthede te skep? Maar nie net klein besighede moet aangemoedig word nie. Watter nuwe werkgeleenthede gaan daar wees vir groot suksesvolle besighede wat nuwe uitbreiding en ontwikkeling aanpak om meer werk in Suid-Afrika te skep?

Ek wil graag mnr Moeletsi Mbeki steun waar hy sê die Regering se swart ekonomiese bemagtigings- en transformasiemodel werk nie. Dit is tog voor die hand liggend dat geen rassistiese ekonomiese ontwikkelingsmodel kan werk nie. Ook om welvaart sosialisties net rond te skuif bring geen ekonomiese groei en ontwikkeling nie. Nuwe welvaart en ontwikkeling moet geskep word deur entrepreneurskap en nuwe besigheidsontwikkeling.

Die DA se resep vir ekonomiese groei en werkskepping sluit onder andere die volgende in: ‘n duidelike raamwerk en gunstige klimaat vir ekonomiese groei en ontwikkeling; meer intensiewe uitvoerbevordering; groter aanmoediging van entrepreneurskap en stimulering van nuwe besigheid; meer en beter opleiding van nuwe entrepreneurs; aanpassing van die onderwys en opleiding by die nuwe ekonomiese en tegnologiese uitdagings van vandag en môre; en spesiale owerheidsgefinansierde infrastruktuur ontwikkelingsprojekte.

Die groot vraag is egter hoe suksesvol die ANC-Cosatu-Kommunistiese alliansie met ekonomiese groei en werkskepping in Suid-Afrika gaan wees. Dit was tot dusver een van die huidige Regering se groot swakplekke.

Die DA steun die Nasionale Kleinsakewysigingswetsontwerp. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It is the task of the Government of the day to establish a clear framework and a climate favourable for economic growth and development of business in South Africa. Since the small business sector contributes approximately 40% of the gross national product, and because there are more than a million small businesses in South Africa, the question which the Deputy Minister should answer, is: What new initiatives can be presented to the small business sector in order to create more job opportunities? But not only small businesses should be encouraged. What new job opportunities will there be for big, successful businesses that undertake new expansion and development in order to create more jobs in South Africa?

I would like to support Mr Moeletsi Mbeki when he says that the black empowerment and transformation model of the Government does not work. Surely, it is evident that no racist economic development model can work. To move prosperity around in a socialistic manner does not bring any economic growth and development either. New prosperity and development should be established by means of entrepreneurship and new business development.

The DA’s recipe for economic growth and job creation includes, among others, the following: a clear framework and climate favourable for economic growth and development; more intensive export promotion; greater support of entrepreneurship and stimulation of new business; more and better training of new entrepreneurs; adjustment of education and training to the new economic and technological challenges of today and tomorrow; and special state-funded infrastructure development projects.

However, the big question is: How succesful will the ANC-Cosatu-Communist alliance be with economic growth and job creation in South Africa? This has been as yet one of the present Government’s major weak spots.

The DA supports the National Small Business Amendment Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr B C NGIBA: Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, hon members, it has long been recognised that the small business sector in South Africa could act as a very important driver for economic growth and job creation. To some extent, this has certainly been the case. However, one would have to say that the success of the small business sector has not been as overwhelmingly positive as one would have hoped for. The crucial element in the potential success of this sector is the creation of an enabling and positive environment in which to conduct business. Small businesses often do not have the capacity or resources to survive in an inflexible and highly regulated economic environment.

This is also true in relation to the level of Government activity and intervention in the sector. Generally speaking, less Government activity is better for the small business sector. Nonetheless, our Government has been very actively involved in the small business sector through support policies and other interventions that it deemed fit. These policies have not all been successful, but, in fairness, one would also have to say that they have not all been failures either.

A very important function of any government is to revise legislation in order to rectify shortcomings and to address unintended consequences. The IFP supports the legislative review undertaken by the amending Bill before us today. Among other things, the Bill removes the statutory provision for the National Small Business Council, which was liquidated in 1998.

This move is supported, but one would have to ask why it has taken such a long time - more than five years - to bring this amendment to Parliament. We also support the proposal that the Minister of Trade and Industry be enabled to consult the small business sector to achieve the objectives of the National Small Business Support Strategy. We shall of course keep an eye on him to see if sufficient consultation does indeed take place. The success of the small business sector is dependent on clear governance policy and co-ordinated institutional focus. The IFP therefore welcomes the proposal in the Bill that Ntsika’s strategic position and core function be clarified in its relationship with the Department of Trade and Industry. I thank you. Dr R T RHODA: Thank you, Chair. In March 1995, the Department of Trade and Industry published its White Paper on National Strategy for the Development and Promotion of Small Business in South Africa. Roughly a year later, the National Small Business Act was promulgated. This Act birthed the institutional structure which would spearhead and co-ordinate the National Small Business Strategy in South Africa. Eight years later, there is widespread consensus that the NSBS had little impact on small business. In short, the general feeling was that the Bill needed to be amended, and amended drastically. And I must say today that I want to commend the department for the bold and radical way in which the Bill has been changed.

Among other things, the Bill provides for an advisory body to be set up for small business. I hope this body will not just be another talk shop, but that it will become a real implementing tool. There is much despondency amongst young people today who have good business plans and well-researched cash flow projections and so on but who are turned away time and again when they apply for start-up financial assistance. We must find ways of unlocking the financial difficulties that face so many of our budding entrepreneurs.

Lengthy consultative workshops were conducted throughout the provinces with various stakeholders, which included the provincial SMME desks, business chambers, service providers, small business organisations, Ntsika, Khula Finance Limited, the Industrial Development Corporation and The South African Bureau of Standards, and finally, also the National Manufacturing and Advisory Centre.

The New NP supports the amendments to the National Small Business Act of

1. Thank you.

Adv Z L MADASA: Thank you. The ACDP supports this Bill. We believe strongly that increased employment and support of enterprises that create employment is a crucial intervention to eradicate poverty. We see this Bill as one of the tools to help entrepreneurship and job creation by small business. We hope that this Bill will help to create a much more co-ordinated focus in this sector. We urge this council to help to increase spending of unspent developmental funds lying in the department. The council will have to create ways to make it easy for small business to access help from the Government and private sector in order to thrive.

In short, we support this Bill. Thank you.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Deputy Chairman, the PAC welcomes the National Small Business Amendment Bill to amend the National Small Business Act of 1996. One of its purposes is to establish an advisory board to represent the interests of small business.

There is a need to strengthen the institutions which support small and medium business enterprises. There should be funding, productivity, quality assurance and improvement in the manufacturing standards. Special attention must be paid to women-run SMMEs, with an emphasis on accessing credit from financial institutions. Small business is not protected. It is being destroyed. Sheriffs are also the reason for a lack of growth among the small business. This Bill must be tightened to protect small business effectively from monopolistic competition and sheriffs.

Small business is largely indigenous. It is no less important than foreign business for job creation. It can contribute to the control of our economy, without which there can be no genuine political independence. The PAC supports this Bill.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF is pleased to note that there is a national policy on small business. The placement of Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency and the National Small Business Council appears to have been put in place for the benefit of small businesses, mainly in terms of support services and advocacy.

The MF has no reservation as this is a necessary amendment concerning the council, which no longer exists, and is pleased in allowing for ministerial power regarding the interests of small business in consultation with persons representing these interests.

Further, the extension of time necessary to allow the director-general to submit an annual review of small business to the Minister, from the end of February to the end of June, is supported but concern is expressed as to why statistics and information are not available within the allocated timeframe. Further provisions made in relation to reflecting the current rand value are also supported.

The MF supports the National Small Business Amendment Bill. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Thank you, Deputy Chair. In support of the amending Bill by the ANC, we accept that the remarkable capacity of small business to absorb labour makes the promotion of small business a political necessity.

Small businesses are usually indigenous and small and require various forms of assistance. Most of their products tend to originate from indigenous craft traditions, and aim to satisfy the needs of poor people rather than large enterprises. Small businesses also tend to use less capital and less management.

Also, although the small business sector is relatively large in South Africa, it is not yet fully integrated into the economic mainstream. The regulatory environment has to be re-examined and therefore the National Small Business Act had to be amended.

The background to the Bill is largely the need for differentiation of small business categories; a more sectoral approach towards Government support; the need for support targeting to address spatial disparities; a clearer alignment of Government initiatives towards small business support, and of course, the need for a coherent voice which this amending Bill is bringing about for small business.

Through the establishment of the advisory body, or the voice, as we call it, the mandates of Ntsika and Khula would be reviewed, and this we applaud. Both these institutions are not reaching their target at the grass- roots level as envisaged. The reviewing of their mandates could include the establishment of microfinance institutions as well as targeted services to SMMEs.

Many of the submissions we received at the hearings stressed that the advisory committee should not become a talk shop, and therefore the ANC thinks that we should make the following proposals in order to make sure that that does not happen. We think the best that we can offer is the guidance that is in the RDP principles, and those speak to the fact that small businesses, particularly those owned and operated by black entrepreneurs, must form an integral part of the national economy and economic policy.

Policies to this end, in particular, must focus on women who are represented disproportionately in the sector, especially in the rural areas. Equally important, we believe that the advisory committee should provide infrastructure and skills to raise income and create healthier working conditions in small business. They must protect the rights of workers, those with family members and others and provide training in productive and managerial skills. Experience shows that three major constraints face small micro enterprises - the lack of access to credit markets; skills and support of institutional arrangements. In collaboration with small-scale entrepreneurs themselves, the democratic state should and, we believe, will develop an integrated approach to all four of the problems.

Indeed it has been raised and we’ve been privileged in the committee to be addressed by small survival businesses and we think that we need to take on board the fact that local governments must review zoning and licensing regulations to end discrimination against micro and small enterprises. All levels of the democratic government must review their procurement policies and that indeed is happening in the department already. A specific programme must be established to ensure Government support for women entrepreneurs and of course it must be easily accessible and it should include skills training and access to credit, as so many of us have said already.

A variety of other measures should lower the barriers to micro enterprise, and the laws that we are putting through now should be improved to allow people in the sector to collect debts, in particular. Market sites must be established and access to existing sites should be facilitated.

Deputy Chair and Deputy Minister, I want to take the opportunity to thank the department for the co-operation that we received as we were addressing the amending Bill. In his absence, I want to thank the DDG of the department, Lionel October, who is not here today. I also want to thank Johan Strydom who has been helping us with legal matters quite a lot. He is there. I thank the committee members who very actively have put together quite a number of the amendments and have made sure that the radical measures that have been put forward in the Bill and that are in front of us today have been taken on board. We are quite happy that that has happened in the Bill. I think I must use the opportunity lastly to say that, in order to make sure that this Bill and many other Bills that have been put forward by the department are implemented, I want to invite the members of Parliament to interact with the centre that the Department of Trade and Industry has opened up on the sixth floor. I think many of us in the trade and industry committee are inundated with people asking how the services work in Trade and Industry. We think the centre is not being used sufficiently. To find out how this Bill will be implemented, you, particularly those who are members of Parliament, will be assisted on the sixth floor, in the centre.

The ANC supports the amending Bill. I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I am going to need the two-and-a-half minutes that were left over to deal with all the comments.

CHAIRPERSON: You have it, hon Deputy. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you. I thank all hon members for supporting this Bill and, indeed, most of what the members raised as concerns are valid concerns and we are, as a department, trying to address most of them.

I would like to agree with the hon member Lockey with regard to problems that have been raised by the small businesses in terms of compliance with regulations and bylaws. And indeed, as a department, whilst we are busy conducting a study of the cost of compliance by small businesses, which was a suggestion that came out of the 1999 mid-term review of the National Small Business Strategy, we feel that the issue of physical infrastructure for small business and the issue of municipal bylaws that are constraining them, are really issues best dealt with at the local level. And we are engaging the local authorities in some of the localities where we used to own buildings as the agencies that were in the townships. So we were engaging them.

I do agree also that some of the small businesses have been taken for a ride by the franchisers and there are a lot of problems of collapsing franchises. We are, as a department, busy with legislation to regulate the franchising industry, but the hon member will also know that there is something called FRN, which is the Franchise Referral Network, which we have set up specifically to help franchisees to deal with their problems.

I thank the hon Theron for the compliment to the Department of Trade and Industry, because, indeed, I agree with him. There is a lot of information out there. The incentives that are available for big businesses are equally available for small businesses. I would not agree with him when he says that the President’s brother, Moeletsi Mbeki, was talking against black economic empowerment in the article that he refers to. I think what Moeletsi was complaining or concerned about was the narrow focus that has resulted in a few people actually benefiting from BEE transactions.

BEE is not a racist economic model. It is a deliberate intervention by this Government to correct the imbalances of the past. I just want to say that everything he said about the DA’s framework for growth of the economy is actually what we are busy doing, and goes beyond what he has spoken about, including the changing of the education system to create entrepreneurs. That is what this Government is busy dealing with.

With regard to the hon Ngiba, I thank him for the support for this Bill. It has, indeed, taken us a long time to come up with a structure to replace the NSBC, but what happened is that we did not want to make the same mistakes that led to the collapse of the NSBC, and we are consulting to see if we can find a voice for small business without legislating on it. And we have found that we have no alternative but to go the way of an amending Bill.

I agree with the comments made by the hon Rhoda and also hon Pheko, who talked about strengthening institutions that support SMMEs and having programmes that target women-owned SMMEs. We are already busy, as the DTI, formulating specific programmes that target small and medium enterprises that are run by women. The programme TWIB, Technology for Women in Business, is one of those and also the programme SAWEN, South African Women Entrepreneurs Network, seeks to do just that - to target women as businesspeople.

Finally, I would agree with almost everything that hon member September said, particularly around Khula and Ntsika and women’s businesses. I would like to assure members that the problems experienced, both at Khula and Ntsika, are about to be resolved.

In respect of Khula, Khula has commissioned a study to look at how it can act as a retailer of finance, because it was conceived as a wholesaler of finance and dependent on a lot of intermediaries to retail the money. Now we are looking, because of all the criticism, at how Khula could act as a retailer. And we think that will improve the situation.

With regard to Ntsika, I have already said that we are working on strengthening the capacity of Ntsika by integrating all nonfinancial support programmes under Ntsika. We are also strengthening the institution’s corporate governance structures by appointing a new board and we will increase the scale of support that we have been giving to Ntsika.

It remains the Government’s intention to have a focal point for small business support through a statutory institution.

I thank all members for supporting this Bill. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Proceedings will now be suspended and will resume at 14:00. Proceedings are suspended.

Business suspended at 12:27 and resumed at 14:03.

                             NEW MEMBER

                           (Announcement)

The Speaker announced that the vacancy that had arisen as a result of the death of Mr R J Heine had been filled, in accordance with item 6(3) of Schedule 6 to the Constitution, 1996, by the nomination of Mr M H Steele with effect from 9 June 2003.

                                OATH

Mr M H Steele, accompanied by Mr D K Maluleke and Mr T D Lee, made and subscribed the oath and took his seat.

       PRECEDENCE NOT TO BE GIVEN TO QUESTIONS ON 11 JUNE 2003

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the motion as it stands on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip:

That, notwithstanding the provisions of Rule 29(8), Questions shall not have precedence on Wednesday, 11 June 2003.

                    GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT SUMMIT

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr T JEEBODH (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC congratulates all the representatives who attended the Growth and Development Summit on 7 June

1. Delegates to this historic summit agreed on a range of interventions that are necessary to facilitate growth and development. These include public investment initiatives, expanded public works programmes, sector partnerships and strategies, small enterprise promotion, local procurement, job impact and monitoring. It is reported that an amount of R145 billion is earmarked for investment in a range of projects around the country. Many people who are currently unemployed stand to benefit from the project.

The summit also committed itself to halving the number of people who are unemployed by the year 2014. The commitment of all sectors to tackle the problem of unemployment marks a huge success for the summit. We believe that investing in our economy for job creation is an important component in the struggle to push back the frontiers of poverty.

The ANC welcomes the outcomes of the summit and hopes that all sectors will work towards implementation of the summit’s resolutions. I thank you. [Applause.]

          DA'S ROAD MAP PROPOSAL FOR DEMOCRACY IN ZIMBABWE

                        (Member's Statement)

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (DA): Madam Speaker, last week, President Mbeki told this Parliament that Zanu-PF and the MDC in Zimbabwe were, and I quote, ``engaged in a dialogue to decide what to do about their country’’. Both parties have since denied that there was any kind of dialogue nor is any kind of dialogue going on between them, either openly or in secret.

Yet President Mbeki told this Parliament and I quote, ``they are having a dialogue’’. Either he was misled or he was misleading the South African public. Since then, Robert Mugabe has spat in President Mbeki’s face by arresting the MDC leader Tsvangirai and MDC secretary-general, General Welshman Ncube. He has launched a decapitation strike against the MDC leadership, just as the apartheid government used to do when faced with mass protest.

Dialogue becomes impossible when Robert Mugabe is crushing his political opponents. The time has surely come for South Africa to take firm action and present Zimbabwe with a concrete plan. We have proposed, in the DA, that the South African Government help introduce a road map to democracy in Zimbabwe. The road map will commit both Zanu-PF and the MDC to a series of interim goals culminating in new, fresh and free elections. South Africa should guide this road map process by imposing firm sanctions for failure, and helping to provide tangible rewards for success.

Zimbabwe’s Iraqi-style information Minister, Jonathan Moyo, has blasted the road map plan on the weekend. That is surely the strongest sign that this is a very good idea. A road map to democracy would help President Mbeki to restore credibility.

We strongly urge he take up this plan and drop his failed policy of quiet diplomacy. [Applause.]

             SCANDAL AROUND ROBBEN ISLAND MUSEUM COUNCIL

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr E T FERREIRA (IFP): The Robben Island Museum was established to reflect the history of incarceration of many of apartheid’s biggest enemies. The museum is thus of historical importance, which has been reflected by the thousands of local and foreign tourists that have been exposed to its exhibitions. One can indeed call it one of the new South Africa’s most important historical sites.

Yet, the body responsible for managing the day-to-day affairs of the museum, the Robben Island Museum Council, has been shrouded in controversy of late. First, the director, Andre Odendaal, resigned after allegations of maladministration and corruption. Secondly, employees were involved in a scandal about viewing pornographic material on museum computers. And now a forensic audit by PricewaterhouseCoopers has recommended that the SAPS investigate kickbacks and the use of a former employee’s bank account for moving around millions of rands.

The IFP welcomes the decision of the head of the council, Ahmed Kathrada, to implement that PWC recommendation and to refer the latest allegations to the SAPS for investigation. An investigation of this nature would no doubt be necessary to restore public confidence in the council and the museum itself. YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr L M KGWELE (ANC): The October Household Survey conducted by Statistics South Africa revealed that 45% of South Africa’s youth in the age category 16 to 24 is unemployed and out of school. The Growth and Development Summit reached an agreement on the need for embarking on, among other things, public investment initiatives and expanded public works programmes. The public investment initiatives are aimed at developing and maintaining economic infrastructure by Government, state-owned enterprises and developmental institutions in order to facilitate growth and improve productivity. Many of these projects should be mainstream infrastructural projects with a strong labour-based component. The expanded public works programme will provide temporary employment and income relief for the unemployed.

An important component of the expanded public works programme is the provision of training to empower those who unemployed to be employed in other sectors in the economy. Some of the programmes will take the form of a national youth service programme. The ANC believes that this agreement is a practical and achievable goal which can successfully alleviate youth unemployment. The ANC is optimistic that the partnership forged at the summit will alleviate the endemic problem of youth unemployment. Thank you.

                     SANCTIONS AGAINST ZIMBABWE

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr B L GELDENHUYS (New NP): Speaker, the New NP never supported sanctions that could hurt the people of a country. We do however, support so-called smart sanctions aimed at isolating members of governments guilty of huge violations of human rights. Commonwealth sanctions against the government of Zimbabwe is a case in point. South Africa, as a member of the Commonwealth, is supposed to honour the implementation of Commonwealth sanctions. Yet the opposite happened. The hon Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, in his capacity as chair of the Commonwealth Science Council, invited his Zimbabwean counterpart to attend the meeting of this Commonwealth Council in South Africa. The New NP strongly objects to this invitation, and we urge the Government to honour the implementation of Commonwealth sanctions in future.

Wat opval, is dat die DA, wat tot dusver voortdurend histeries vrees aangeblaas het oor die gebeure in Zimbabwe, nog nie ‘n woord gerep het oor die jongste verwikkelinge nie. En ‘n mens vra jou die vraag af of die DA se bande met die IVP vir hulle belangriker is as die belange van gewone Zimbabwiërs wie se lotgevalle hulle elke dag uitbuit vir politieke gewin. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[What is striking is that the DA, who up to now have continuously been rousing hysterical fear regarding the events in Zimbabwe, have not yet said a word about the latest developments. And one asks oneself the question whether the DA’s ties with the IFP are more important to them than the interests of ordinary Zimbabweans whose experiences they exploit every day for political gain. [Applause.]]

                         RELIGION IN SCHOOLS

                        (Member's Statement)

Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Madam Speaker, it has been reported that the Minister has said that the policy on religion in education has now been finalised. It has also been suggested that Government is now backtracking on what has been perceived as the banning of meaningful religious observances at schools and the imposing of an official state religion education. Changes to the policy apparently allow school governing bodies to decide if their schools will observe religious practices.

But I say: Is this really possible, Mr Minister? Have you in fact relented on the issue of prayer? The reality is, of course, that the powers allocated to school governing bodies are extremely limited. Some religious leaders are under the impression that the addition of this paragraph solves the problem, but does it?

Firstly, school governing bodies must conduct religious observances in accordance with the policy document, which is strongly opposed to single- faith observances. Secondly, in terms of the South African Schools Act, school governing bodies have functions but no powers. Thirdly, the Constitution stipulates that the observances must follow rules made by the appropriate public authorities and while you and I may want this to refer to the school governing bodies, the Minister will gladly enlighten us that he and his department are confident that they are the relevant public authorities.

Of course, section 9 of the Constitution is the trump card and whether we like it or not, religion-specific observances, especially Christian prayer, are perceived as discriminatory and, as the Minister has said on many occasions, Christianity in this regard is a problem and he will not tolerate what he calls Christian indoctrination. Ideally this policy should be revisited from scratch, but to remedy some of the problems, at least, offensive paragraphs opposed to single-faith observances need to be deleted or reworded. School governing bodies must be empowered to decide how religion education is to be conducted. Allowing representatives of religious organisations to teach religion education only if they are also qualified teachers registered with the South African Council of Educators is absurd and an insult. Thank you.

          MORE BRUTALITY DISPLAYED BY THE APARTHEID REGIME

                        (Member's Statement)

Nksz N MAHLAWE (ANC): Somlomo, ngomhla we-6 kuJuni 1960 amawaka abantu abamba intlanganiso kwintaba yaseNgquza, eQawukeni ngaseFlagstaff, bexoxa ngengcinezelo karhulumente wocalucalulo. Amadlagusha ayichithachitha loo ntlanganiso ngokudubula ngolunya, abulale abantu abalishumi elinanye. Kwangxwelereka amakhulu evayo, kwavalelwa inkitha yabantu, kwagwetywa intambo abangamashumi amathathu. NgolweSine umhla we-6 kuJuni 2003, emva kweminyaka engamashumi amane anesithathu, uRhulumente wabantu okhokelwa yi-ANC ungcwabe ngokutsha amathambo aloo maqhawe ngesidima nangesithozela esiwafaneleyo. Lo mzabalazo ke uyinxalenye yenkquleqhu ye-ANC yokulwa ucalucalulo, njengoko kuqulathwe kumqulu wenkululeko iFreedom Charter.

Esi siganeko singqamana nesiganeko sonyaka u-1976, nyaka lowo ekwabulawa ngawo ulutsha olwalusilwela amalungelo alo. Le nyanga yeyomceli ngeni kulutsha, okokuba, luqhubeke ngokwakha esi sizwe, nasekugxotheni indlala, babe ngumfuziselo kulutsha olusakhasayo. ndiyabulela [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa member’s statement follows.)

[Ms N MAHLAWE (ANC): Madam Speaker, on 6 June 1960 thousands of people held a meeting at the mountain on Ngquza, in eQawukeni, near Flagstaff, discussing the oppression of the apartheid government. The boers disrupted that meeting by firing maliciously, killing 11 people. Several hundred people were injured and many people were arrested. Thirty people were sentenced to death. On Thursday, 6 June 2003, after 43 years, the people’s Government, led by the ANC, reburied the remains of those heroes in the dignified and respectful manner that they deserved. This struggle is part of the efforts of the ANC, as enshrined in the Freedom Charter, to fight apartheid.

This incident coincides with the one in 1976, the year in which the youth, who were fighting for their rights, were killed. This is a month of challenge to the youth; that they carry on building this nation, eradicating poverty and being exemplary to the up-and-coming youth. I thank you. [Applause.]]

                  AVIATION ACCIDENTS IN MPUMALANGA

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms N C NKABINDE (UDM): The UDM extends its condolences to the families and friends of the various people who died tragically in two separate aviation accidents in Mpumalanga over the weekend. A special word of gratitude should be extended to the recovery teams that assisted with the retrieval of the deceased from the helicopter crash. During a long and arduous retrieval effort, hampered by rain, mist and even hail, the search and rescue teams persevered until they could reach the crash site.

The joint efforts of the Defence Force and Civilian Mountain Club members, many of them volunteers, must be commended. Through their efforts, the bereaved families have been given the opportunity to pay proper respect to their departed loved ones.

The UDM urges the Civil Aviation Authority to finalise its investigation as quickly as possible to allow the families to find closure on this difficult and tragic incident. I thank you.

                    GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT SUMMIT

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr P W A MULDER (VF): Mevrou die Speaker, die meeste van Suid-Afrika se probleme kan teruggevoer word na werkloosheid. Waar Suid-Afrika se werkloosheidsyfer ongeveer 40% is, word bereken dat dit by jong mense onder 30 jaar bykans 70% is. Die konflik- en revolusiepotensiaal wat hieruit voortspruit, voorspel niks goeds vir die toekoms nie.

Besluite van die Regering aan die een kant, en die besigheidswêreld alleen, soos geneem op die pas afgelope Groei- en Ontwikkelingsberaad, gaan nie Suid-Afrika se werkloosheidsprobleme oplos nie. Gemeenskappe sal self verantwoordelikheid vir hul ekonomiese opheffing moet neem. Die meerderheid Suid-Afrikaners sal ook ‘n kopskuif moet maak van die huidige ekonomiese jy skuld my-kultuur’’ na ‘n ``neem eie inisiatief’‘-kultuur’’.

Die ooreenkomste en besluite wat die naweek op die Groei- en Ontwikkelingsberaad geneem is, word deur die VF verwelkom as ‘n eerste stap in ‘n poging om die probleme op te los. Die finale antwoord vir die probleme lê egter nie daar alleen nie. Die finale antwoord lê in die ontwikkeling van selfstandige gemeenskappe wat die verantwoordelikheid vir hulle opheffing self sal aanpak. Om selfstandige gemeenskappe te skep, en te laat slaag, moet daar ook ‘n ekonomiese skuif kom deur die Regering en die mense van Suid-Afrika. Die skuif moet wees van die individu na die gemeenskap, van die huidige blameer ander-kultuur na die ``neem eie verantwoordelikheid’‘-kultuur. Die gevolg hiervan sal wees dat ons van ekonomies passiewe ontvangers sal beweeg na selfstandige gemeenskappe wat klêm le op eie inisiatief en produktiwiteit en so Suid-Afrika se probleme van werkloosheid en armoede self help oplos. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER (FF): Madam Speaker, most of South Africa’s problems can be traced back to unemployment. While South Africa’s unemployment rate is approximately 40%, it is estimated that for young people under 30 years of age it is almost 70%. The conflict and revolution potential arising from this does not bode well for the future.

Decisions from the Government, on the one hand, and from the business world unilaterally, as taken at the Growth and Development Summit which has just ended, are not going to solve South Africa’s unemployment problems. Communities themselves will have to take responsibility for their economic upliftment. The majority of South Africans will also have to make a paradigm shift, from the present you owe me'' culture to atake your own initiative’’ culture.

The agreements made and decisions taken at the weekend at the Growth and Development Summit are welcomed by the FF as a first step in an effort to solve the problems. However, the final answer to the problems does not lie in that alone. The final answer lies in the development of self-sufficient communities that will take the responsibility for their upliftment themselves. To create self-sufficient communities and make them succeed, there also has to be an economic shift on the part of the Government and the people of South Africa. This shift should be from the individual to the community, from the present blame others'' culture to thetake responsibility’’ culture. The result of this will be that we will move from being economically passive receivers to being self-sufficient communities that emphasise own initiative and productivity, and in so doing help to resolve South Africa’s problems of unemployment and poverty ourselves. Thank you.]

               AFRICAN SUMMIT OF WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI (ANC): Madam Speaker, President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa will host other African leaders and the heads of the world’s major corporations, who will assemble in Durban later this week. They will be attending the annual African Summit of the World Economic Forum. This summit will look at ways of providing assistance to African countries to implement Nepad. The WEF’s director commented that: ``It is good to talk, but we need to have realistic timeframes for the roll-out, action and review.’’

Member states of the African Union have already taken initiatives to implement some of the Nepad projects. The ANC believes that the outcomes of this meeting will mark a turning point in the realisation of the noble ideals and principles of the Nepad programme. The ANC also welcomes the determination of role-players who will be attending this meeting to accelerate the implementation of Nepad projects. I thank you.

               REDUCTION IN NUMBER OF MATRIC STUDENTS

                        (Member's Statement)

Mnr W P DOMAN (DA): Agb Speaker, die DA sê Minister Asmal moet verantwoordelikheid neem vir sy eie departement se onthulling dat slegs vier uit elke tien leerlinge wat skool begin uiteindelik matriek behaal.

Sy spog met die verbetering van die matriekslaagsyfer van 48% in 1999 na 68% verlede jaar word hierdeur totaal omver gegooi en verder belaglik gemaak omdat 110 000 minder leerders verlede jaar as in 1998 matriek geskryf het. Dat die gehalte van onderwys ook verswak het, word beklemtoon daardeur dat die leerders wat matriekvrystellings behaal het, merkbaar afgeneem het. Die Minister se obsessie om die slaagsyfer jaarliks met 5% op te skuif, forseer skole om leerders terug te hou in grade 10 en 11 waar tans ‘n opeenhoping van leerders of dubbeld in sekere skole teenoor dié wat in graad 12 is. Dit forseer uiteindelik ook leerders uit die sisteem.

Een van Minister Asmal se grootste mislukkings is die feit dat hy nog nie na nege jaar se demokrasie ‘n nuwe kurrikulum vir Verdere Onderwys en Opleiding na graad 9 in plek gesit het nie om sodoende voorsiening te maak vir leerders wat die ekonomie broodnodig het en wat op hierdie wyse nie werk kan kry nie. Die Minister moet sy aandag gee aan die basiese oorsake vir die verdwyningsyfers, soos die hervorming van die huidige te akademiesgerigte kurrikulum wat baie leerders laat uitsak en verdwyn. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr W P DOMAN (DA): Hon Speaker, the DA says that Minister Asmal has to take resposibility for his own department’s revelation that only four out of every ten learners who start school actually achieve matric.

His boasting about the improvement in the matric pass rate from 48% in 1999 to 68% last year has totally had the bottom knocked out of it by this and furthermore been made ridiculous because 110 000 fewer learners wrote matric last year than in 1998. That the quality of education has also deteriorated is highlighted by that fact that there is a noticeable decrease in the number of learners who achieved matric exemption. The Minister’s obsession with increasing the pass rate by 5% annually forces schools to keep learners back in Grade 10 and 11, where there is currently a congestion of learners, or double those in Grade 12 in certain schools. This eventually also forces learners out of the system.

One of Minister Asmal’s biggest failures is the fact that after nine years of democracy he still has not put in place a new curriculum for Further Education and Training after Grade 9, in so doing to provide for learners whom the economy desperately needs and who cannot get jobs in this manner. The Minister should devote his attention to the basic causes of the rate of disappearance, like reshaping the currently too academically aimed curriculum that causes many learners to drop out and disappear.]

                            TAXI INDUSTRY

                        (Member's Statement)

Prince N E ZULU (IFP): Madam Speaker, it was appetising to hear yesterday from the actual Minister of Transport that the bidding process that will bring new-look taxis to our roads has started.

It is important that this industry which has been bypassed by all developmental events of the previous government is to be considered, recognised and subsidised as another major component in the country’s transport network that now received the attention of the new Government.

The minibus-taxi industry was a black initiative many years ago on a one- man, one-taxi basis. No research substantiated this initiative. No capital was accumulated to start a business. It’s a business that started because there was a glaring need - a need to commute workers between home and their workplaces, a need to unite families in the evenings, a need to commute children between home and their institutions of learning and a need to transport foreign nationals across our borders. These needs were to be accomplished safely and efficiently, but at an affordable price.

We believe transport authorities have done all possible to negotiate a mechanism on how best to introduce the new-look fleet on our roads. The training of drivers, the affordability of new fares, the upgrading of drivers’ licences from code 8 to code 10 in order to drive the 35-seaters, the delay that may be caused in filling up the 35-seaters as against the 15- seaters and the question of high voltage syndrome as highlighted yesterday … [Time expired.] Thank you.

                   REMARKS ABOUT LAND RIGHTS BILL

                        (Member's Statement)

Miss J E SOSIBO (ANC): Madam Speaker, last week it was reported in a daily newspaper that Inkosi Ngubane has warned that the proposed Communal Land Rights Bill in its present form could lead to bloodshed if it was to be implemented. He was addressing a conference on sociopolitical, cultural and educational issues at the University of Durban-Westville.

The ANC views such utterances in a very serious manner. The proposed legislation seeks to bring about radical changes in the administration of land in rural areas. The ANC believes the proposed Bill will, for the first time, enable poor rural communities to have direct access to the land. The people of KwaZulu-Natal province deserve peace.

The ANC expresses its disappointment with this utterance and calls on Inkosi Ngubane to assist in building and strengthening peace, democracy and development in the province. I thank you. [Applause.]

                           RACISTS REMARKS

                        (Member's Statement)

Mnr J DURAND (Nuwe NP): Madam Speaker, die Nuwe NP neem kennis van dr Daan Roodt, leier van die pro-Afrikaanse aksiegroep, se belaglike gedagte om die Stadsraad van Pretoria oor te neem omdat die ANC kwansuis Pretoria gesteel het. Verder neem die Nuwe NP ook kennis van dr Roodt se rassistiese uitsprake en dat hy van mening is dat apartheid positief was. Dis duidelik dat dr Roodt met sy regse uitsprake terug verlang na die verlede.

Die Nuwe NP vind dit veelseggend dat dr Roodt die agb Tony Leon en die DA beskou as die voertuig waarmee hierdie ideaal verwesenlik kan word. Dit is duidelik dat dr Roodt die ware kleure van die DA raakgesien het en daarom vir hom ‘n tuiste in die DA sien. Dr Roodt het die agb Leon ook privaat verseker dat hy sal inval by partystrukture en prosedures in belang van die groter saak om Pretoria uit ANC-hande te bevry. Dit is baie ironies dat die DA wat homself so graag wil voordoen as ‘n party vir almal so aanloklik is vir iemand met sulke regse sienings soos dr Roodt en dat die DA gesien word as die geskikte party om die verlede te laat herleef. Duidelik die bevestiging wat ons almal lankal vermoed. Soos hulle sê: eers kom ontkenning, maar uiteindelik aanvaarding. Die Nuwe NP glo die DA is nou lank genoeg in die ontkenningsfase. Dit is tyd dat die DA uit sy regse kas klim. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr J DURAND (New NP): Madam Speaker, the New NP notes the ludicrous idea of Dr Daan Roodt, leader of the pro-Afrikaans action group, to take over the city council of Pretoria because the ANC ostensibly stole Pretoria. We further note Dr Roodt’s racist utterances and that he believes that apartheid was positive. It is obvious that with his rightist utterances, Dr Roodt is yearning for the past.

The New NP finds it significant that Dr Roodt regards the hon Tony Leon and the DA as the vehicle to realise this dream. It is obvious that Dr Roodt has seen the true colours of the DA and therefore sees the DA as his future home. Dr Roodt also privately assured the hon Leon that he will abide by party structures and procedures in the interest of the bigger cause to free Pretoria from ANC hands. It is very ironic that the DA, who would like to keep up a front as being open to all, seems so irresistible to someone with such rightist leanings as Dr Roodt and that the DA is seen as the appropriate party to revive the past. This is clearly confirmation of what everybody suspected all along. As they say: first comes denial, but eventually acceptance. The New NP believes that the DA has been in the denial phase long enough. It is time that the DA comes out of its rightist closet. I thank you.]

                   RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE IN SCHOOLS

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, may I assure you and the House that I try to mind my own business. Can I assure you that these two statements made by the hon Doman and the hon Dudley were not planted by me. In other words, they are not my creation just to give me an opportunity to reply. Can I assure you that this is the situation.

In relation to the hon Dudley, let me say that I don’t want to mess with the English language, but does she mean I was backing down or backtracking? I’m not sure which is the right word. I think it sounded like ``backing down’’.

Can I assure you and the House too that we in the ANC actually take consultation very seriously. On this issue, you are damned if you don’t consult. You are damned doubly if you consult and say we are actually listening. What has happened, therefore, is that the following position has occurred. We had to take into account the constitutional provision about religious observance and that it must be equitable in terms of the Constitution. If in fact the religious observances are not voluntary, then it would be unconstitutional. Extensive consultation has taken place, and we have come to the conclusion that if there are religious observances, and there are not always in assemblies, then the governing body must take into account the fact that we are a multireligious society.

It is not good enough for the hon Dudley to say that I am opposed to Christian prayers. The ones who are most enthusiastic about this are the Zion Christian Church. I’ve said to this House before that they have been sidelined, demonised. They are the largest Christian denomination in South Africa. They welcomed this.

It is no longer my policy or the department’s. Yesterday, the Council of Education Ministers in Durban released this as their document now. There is one month still for further consultation. We don’t want thousands from one address and one-line reports. The result of this is therefore that there will be religious observances in schools, providing the governing body takes into account the general approach that we are a multireligious society, which we are.

When I met the National Religious Leaders Forum, and you can’t get higher than that - well you can actually; there’s one above that, but I don’t have direct lines or contact above that - we started off with a common prayer given by the Chief Rabbi. Everybody was so excited that we might suggest this common prayer which refers to the deity. No one, except someone who is absolutely sectarian, can object to a common prayer that is acceptable to all our multireligious faiths in South Africa. Beyond that, I can’t go. Beyond that, I can’t go. Beyond that we are entering the realm of the quiet, demonised version of sectarian and religious politics. I am not prepared to go into that.

               REDUCTION IN NUMBER OF MATRIC STUDENTS

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The point about Mr Doman’s statement is that he should go and do some research. We have lots of research facilities. Possibly, you might have a lightness of tone also. I understand you are a former dominee [minister] and a former dominee must have a lightness of tone too.

The first point to remember is that the Sunday Times article is based on taking the number of matric pupils, and subtracting them from those in Grade 1. That is an extraordinary thing. It will give us possibly the highest intake for school-leaving certificates in the world, by the way, if we take that view. In fact, far more.

Secondly, I know that your predecessor has been replaced by you, which is the DP approach to representivity, because clearly, if the DP was represented by the previous spokesperson … [Interjections.] Mr Ntuli was not truly representative of the DP at large, which I see in front of me now. [Interjections.] That is why you have Mr Doman … [Interjections.]

The other point is that we released, as a Government department, soon after the publication of the results, why the matric numbers have fallen. [Interjections.] The central point was - if you listened - that from 1994 to 1997, we had this huge peak in the number of students who were never …

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The hon Leon makes terrible statements in Mexico about the fact that this ANC Government is behaving like the National Party government of 1952. We shall have a debate on that. That is by the way. [Interjections.]

This was a childish trantrum in Mexico. Let’s have some real news here. [Interjections.]

Mr Doman, we published a report ourselves, out of a sense of self- confidence as to why the numbers had fallen. [Interjections.] The numbers had fallen because …

The SPEAKER: Hon Minister! The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I can’t speak when they are …

The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, you had more time than the two statements that were made. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, I had thought it was two minutes for replies. The response was for one minute. I couldn’t have more time. There were two distinct issues raised. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: You have had four-and-a-half minutes, Minister.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Well, if you tell these baying wolves to keep quiet, you can have a real discussion on the hon Doman’s point. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 25 - Safety and Security, and Vote No 23 - Independent Complaints Directorate: The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker and hon members, last year I dedicated this department’s budget speech to my predecessor, Comrade Steve Tshwete. Allow me to dedicate this one, sadly, to the memory of the many police officials murdered in the line of duty over the past year. I do this, not because I like putting a sombre note on the work we do in the department, but rather as a stark reminder that the battle against crime goes on and, unfortunately, it leaves in its wake an unwelcome number of casualties.

At the same time, I wish to give recognition to the sterling work being done by the members of our Police Service. Indeed, our police officials have exerted themselves and are, under very difficult circumstances, continuing to exert themselves in doing all that they can to ensure a safe and secure environment for all the people in South Africa. I salute them. [Applause.]

Their efforts are being complemented by the great majority of our people, from all walks of life, who are contributing much time and energy to bring about safety for all of us in this country. They range from businesspeople to reservists and volunteers who have responded warmly to calls to lend a hand and build a better life for all. I also salute them.

My colleague, Comrade Kader Asmal, was asking me just now why it is that there are not as many police officials in this House as has been the case in the past. The reason is that they are out there fighting crime. [Applause.] Last Friday, a comprehensive operation termed ``Operation Tswikila’’ kicked off in the Western Cape. This operation forms part of our national crime-combating strategy and is intended to push back the levels of violent crime in this province, especially in priority police station areas such as Khayelitsha, Nyanga and Mitchells Plain.

All police members from the Western Cape are participating in the operation, including members working at the provincial and area offices. A substantive number of members will also be deployed from other provinces. The operation has already shown results. For example, Khayelitsha had the lowest murder figure over a weekend in many years. Only two murders occurred last weekend compared to an average of 15 murders during weekends in Khayelitsha generally. Of course, those two murders are regrettable. There must be no murders in South Africa. National Commissioner Jackie Selebi is also not here and, as you may be aware, has for a period of three years been appointed as the vice president for Interpol in Africa. He is now in France ensuring that Africa and especially South Africa are and remain in the frontline of international and interregional policing and co- operation.

You will also notice that the Deputy Minister of Safety and Security, Joe Matthews, is not here. He had to rush off to Johannesburg where his sister is critically ill. I am sure our thoughts are with him at this moment and with our colleague, the Chairperson of the NCOP.

In his state of the nation address, the President emphasised the importance of the National Crime Prevention Strategy and the progress made thus far. Continuous efforts to improve the capacity of the Police Service to discharge its crime prevention and combating responsibility and improve intelligence capacity, and the reduction of illegal firearms and an increase in the number of Saturday and specialised courts are at the top of our cluster priorities.

Last year, I commended members of this House for their commitment to the search for answers to the country’s crime problems. I made the point that we are increasingly defining crime outside the hurly-burly of party politics, which is the way it should be as this scourge impoverishes us all. May I again repeat the call I made then, that I am open to both suggestions and constructive criticism.

Unfortunately, there are still those who continue to demean our efforts against crime. Early this year, one national newspaper referred to a task team on farm killings, concluding that the report has been submitted to my office and that we were still doctoring the findings. At the time, we still had not received the report. But, sadly, even when this truth was explained to the newspaper, no retraction was made.

Yesterday, I received a progress report from Adv Charl du Plessis, the chairperson of the committee of inquiry into farm attacks. In the report, Adv Du Plessis gave an indication of the work already completed by the committee. He also gave an indication of some of the main findings of the committee thus far, which I quote,

By far the largest impetus behind farm attacks in the narrow sense of the word is of a purely criminal nature, namely the desire to rob. The committee could find no evidence that farm attacks per se were part of an orchestrated campaign to drive the white farmers off the land so that it could be occupied by the black landless people.

The committee is, however, of the opinion that suitable steps should be taken to deal with illegal occupation of land in order to prevent it from becoming a crime risk. I will discuss these issues as a matter of urgency with my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs as well as with the commissioners of the Land Claims Commission.

In order to enhance rural safety, the committee is of the opinion that issues such as physical security on farms and smallholdings, a proper substitute for the commando system, proper policing and rural safety in general need to receive attention. The committee also indicated that the full and final report will be presented to me within a month. Whatever strategies we work out to combat crime, it should be acknowledged that our efforts will not be appreciated until we reach a position where in many instances we can stop crime before it happens.

To this end, our crime combating strategy is designed to do this over time through visibility and mobility. This strategy, as depicted in the strategic plan tabled in Parliament, which is this booklet, displays a clear focus on combating organised, serious and violent crimes, commercial crimes, and crimes against women and children. It is further focused on those areas with the highest incidence of these crimes and seeks to stabilise crimes in these areas. Indeed crime has been stabilised in the majority of these areas.

It is a well-known fact that South Africa has a large pool of illegal firearms in circulation. Our analysis has shown us that there is a high prevalence in the use of these firearms during the commission of serious and violent crimes. The gang problem in the Western Cape, for instance, is closely linked to drug and gun trafficking. Our operations in the Cape Flats area have confirmed this beyond any shadow of doubt. That is why our strategy to deal with the proliferation of firearms has been revitalised, so to speak, leading to the launch of ``Operation Sethunya’’ on 1 April 2003, aimed at tracing illegal firearms and assuring legal compliance.

Our total strategy to eradicate the proliferation of firearms used in crime and violence in South Africa provides for regulators in the form of legislation like the Firearms Control Act, regulations, international protocols and national instructions; effective control processes in the Central Firearm Register and in relation to state-owned firearms; an operational crime-combating approach; crime prevention initiatives in terms of public awareness and education campaigns, and regional co-operation initiatives.

Steps to implement the Firearms Control Act are now in progress. Firstly, certain amendments to the Act are necessary. These amendments are of a lexical and substantive nature. The substantive issues relate to a redefinition of a security company'' to asecurity service provider’’ to accord with the Private Security Regulation Act of 2000. The continuation of a gunsmith’s certificate and especially the issuing of regulations in respect of firearms-free zones are further amendments.

The intention is to implement the Act in two phases. The first phase is to provide for accreditations required in terms of the Act. Thereafter, the rest of the Act will be implemented. Regulations pertaining to the accreditation are at present with the state law advisers and should be ready for promulgation very soon.

During April and May this year, the South African Police Service confiscated 7 975 firearms. This is treble the number of firearms normally confiscated over a two-month period. Furthermore, a total of 1,5 million rounds of ammunition was confiscated and 1 026 persons arrested for illegal possession of arms and ammunition.

The destruction of firearms remains a priority and, during the last financial year, 38 426 state-owned firearms and 20 191 confiscated firearms were destroyed. I am currently considering the possible declaration of an amnesty in order to remove further illegal firearms and ammunition from society.

During his state of the nation address earlier this year, the President announced the phasing out of the SANDF commando system in the next six years. The commandos will be replaced by a revised SAPS reservist system, based on the amended national instruction for reservists. This system is linked to various initiatives which form part of the National Crime Combating Strategy normalisation phase, such as the drastic increase in the SAPS personnel figures over the next three years, the restructuring of specialised investigation units, the implementation of sector policing and the establishment of crime combating units for each police area.

The reservists will, among other things, be accommodated in the National Intervention and Crime Combating Units which have the responsibility to support provinces with the security of big events and disaster management, and to stabilise high crime and violent situations. They will also be accommodated in the Area Crime Combating Units which will establish a decentralised capacity in each police station area comprising reservists. They are responsible for implementing specific operational concepts pertaining to rural protection, to act as a rapid response capacity with regard to serious crime as well as crime combating operations involving high-force levels, for example, cordon and search and the saturation of areas, to mention just a few.

Sector policing will see reservists involved in sector policing in each police station precinct. The sector policing teams have various functions, ranging from patrols in a sector to the introduction of problem-solving projects. The reservists will also be recruited for the following functions: reservist pilots; crime-scene first respondents who will work with the detective service; crime intelligence functions; social workers and psychologists and fleet and financial managers, just to mention a few.

Reservists are in the process of being recruited from existing structures such as the SANDF commandos and the more than 75 000 volunteers who participated in the Letsema campaign. In order to phase out the commando system and to implement the new reservist system, SANDF exit and SAPS entry plans have been completed. These plans will be implemented over a period of six years.

What has also become clear is that illicit drugs play a major part in the commission of violent crimes. In this regard, the interdepartmental task team which has been established to co-ordinate the implementation of a multidimensional antidrugs strategy is maintaining its efforts. This strategy forms part of the drug masterplan which is being co-ordinated by the Central Drug Authority. Under the auspices of the Central Drug Authority, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the Secretariat for Safety and Security, other relevant government departments and the National Youth Commission piloted an antidrug campaign in Mamelodi last year. This year, on June 26, the same campaign will be launched in Cape Town.

The SAPS has focused its attention on the supply part of the demand-and- supply dimensions of the drug phenomenon. The demand dimension is also being addressed in Government’s moral regeneration strategy. Examples of successes achieved by SAPS include the launch of disruptive operations in targeted drug hot spots throughout South Africa. Clandestine laboratories are continuously being identified and neutralised. The focus has moved to manufacturers, suppliers and pushers as opposed to drug addicts and users. During the past year, 6 758 individuals involved in drug-related offences were arrested, and illicit substances to the value of R330 million were seized.

Addressing this House in my Budget Vote speech last year, I indicated that I was hearing ominous rumblings of war, albeit soft at this stage and want to say, before they become a crescendo, that we will not have any political violence again in this country. Any person who engages in this will be arrested and criminally prosecuted. [Applause.]

Hon members are already aware of police successes in thwarting alleged plans of the so-called Boeremag to destabilise the country, murder people at the World Summit on Sustainable Development and other serious allegations now before court. Suffice it to say here that we remain alert for any other eventualities from those bent on political violence.

Organised crime units also reached several milestones with the seizure of hundreds of million of rands worth of drugs and prohibited substances, while even greater successes were achieved in vehicle-related crimes, even across borders. Developments in the latter have shown that the syndicates do not only smuggle vehicles across the borders, but will ship them across oceans, as evidenced by the recovery in Mauritius of vehicles stolen or hijacked in South Africa.

Other seizures in respect of natural resources in large quantities include abalone, ivory and rhino horn. Most operators in abalone, ivory and rhino horn have ready markets in the Far East.

While the police devote much effort to combat crime with the assistance of communities, we cannot tolerate the development of vigilantism. No one has the right to take the law into their own hands. The police are there and are making every effort to deal with incidents of crime. Vigilantism helps people with other agendas, particularly those who are involved in organised crime who must knock off their competitors and rivals.

Concurrent with our efforts to combat organised, serious and violent crimes, our strategy for the improvement of service delivery and the prevention of crime is gaining momentum. Now that the first of the new police recruits specifically recruited and trained as part of our sector policing strategy have completed their training, the police will become more visible and effective in the areas where they are deployed. They will be deployed to smaller, manageable, geographic areas under the supervision of a sector commander. Sector policing is a collaborative effort by all role-players in addressing the root causes of crime, and contributes to effective crime-prevention initiatives. It is in this environment that reservists will play a key role in both urban and rural areas. Given that we already had people performing this function who were not adequately trained, the deployment of the new recruits will boost both morale and performance.

The matter of crime statistics has been popping up now and again in this House. Crime statistics are used internally on a day-to-day basis to determine crime patterns, hot spots and modus operandi. We use this information for operational planning and to deploy our members in concentrated operations. Information is also provided to Community Police Forums to ensure community involvement in our policing initiatives. The statistics from the department will be tabled in Parliament later this year as part of the SAPS Annual Report. This accords with international norms regarding the release of crime statistics.

Let me report, though, that the stabilisation trend in relation to selected priority crimes is continuing, with murder still on the decrease and, for the first time since 1994, a decrease in the rape figures and significant decreases in aggravated robberies. Street robberies, common burglaries and theft, however, remain a concern. The reorganisation of our detective service has, of course, played a major role in the successes achieved. Obviously, there have been complaints from various quarters, mostly based on misunderstanding of the intention of the changes and their effectiveness. The restructuring of the specialised units of the detective service is almost completed. Units are now structured into multidisciplinary units to deal with organised crime, serious and violent crimes, commercial crimes and crimes against women and children. Various units have been created at provincial, area and local levels to deal with these types of crimes. The dysfunctions of the past that related to reactive approaches, non-sharing of information and intelligence, ignorance of the organised nature of crime and the duplication of payment of rewards for information have now appropriately been addressed.

Our restructuring needs to be taken further and I intend to ask Cabinet soon to consider the mandate and capacity of the protection and security services. This new division was established within the SAPS and the divisional commissioner was appointed in November last year.

It is envisaged that the following functions will be performed by this division: provision of in-transit VIP protection; provision of static protection services to approved venues; provision of security services to the rail transport sector and port of entry environment, including identified airports, harbours and border posts; and the provision of a regulatory service to identify strategic installations.

The following sites will be used as pilot projects: the land border at Beit Bridge; Johannesburg International Airport; all High Courts in the country; Durban Harbour and Cape Town train station. Although funds have not yet been allocated for the full establishment of the protection and security service division, the transfer of the responsibility for border line control from the SANDF to the SAPS and expansion of the reservist system to address community safety needs, we are in the process of preparing submissions to Treasury. The department is currently the recipient of donor funding to the value of R500 million over a period of three years. The biggest donor is the EU with a R150 million capacity-building programme. A proposed R250 million programme covering crimes against women and children in the Eastern Cape is being negotiated and should be signed in the near future.

Other donors include Belgium, Denmark, France, Sweden, the United Kingdom, the United States, the United Nations and Norway. All donor funding is utilised to support the priorities and objectives of the SAPS and is strictly managed to ensure no duplication of donor funding occurs.

Donor support is provided to fund development and training in a wide range of fields, including human resource management, the Criminal Record Centre, organised crime and the Forensic Science Laboratory. The SAPS laboratory is, among other things, supported in the development of a fully automated DNA database which will be the first in the world, while the work in the laboratory is already seen as a world best practice.

As Safety and Security, we have an obligation to ensure peace and stability internationally, on the continent as well as in the country. We will continue to meet our obligations on all fronts in helping with international conventions. We will continue to forge partnerships with security establishments in pursuing our objectives of combating international crime.

The skills of the SAPS in certain specialised fields have already been recognised by various countries in the world. In the next few weeks, the SAPS will provide an advanced training course in high-risk operations to police members from the United Arab Emirates and Oman.

On the African continent, we will continue to forge and strengthen partnerships with police institutions in advancing the objectives of Nepad and the AU. To this end, we are actively involved in peace initiatives in the DRC and Burundi, and we have received requests for training support from various African countries, including Mozambique, Kenya and Nigeria.

We are engaged in a continuous process of reviewing legislation and in this regard the Explosives Act has been reviewed and the new Explosives Act has been adopted by Parliament. A comprehensive counter-terrorism Bill has been formally introduced to Parliament and is undergoing public scrutiny through a consultative process.

Technology aids optimise our efforts and serve as an important tool in the fight against crime. We have found a balance between the use of personnel and technology. That is why the use of technological aids such as CCTV must now be expanded. In regard to this, we have decided to expand the use of technological aids such as closed-circuit television which has proved a very effective tool in the prevention and combating of crime.

Many local government structures, with the business sector acting on their behalf, have installed CCTV in areas of high crime. In most instances, partnerships exist within the SAPS and these structures to render a better service. There is a crying need to install CCTV in residential areas where unacceptable crime levels are experienced. The SAPS is presently formulating national standards and policy on the implementation and realisation of CCTV. The presidential stations will of course enjoy precedence in this regard.

The Automated Fingerprint Identification System consisting of 118 workstations has now been implemented in all 35 decentralised sites throughout the country and has been fully operational since September 2001.

One of the greatest technological advances we want to record in our crime combating strategy relates to the fact that our expanded AFIS programme will include palm print identification. Concomitantly with this will be a new programme of live scanning facilities that will enable the electronic scanning of fingerprints. A pilot project utilising hand-held scanners has already been completed.

Another area where technology plays a significant role in relation to the detection and combating of crime is that of the forensic science laboratory. These facilities are equipped with modern laboratories and the latest technology such as the DNA system and the Integrated Ballistic Identification System. We now have four forensic laboratories in the country, in Pretoria, Durban, Port Elizabeth and Cape Town. Some members of Parliament’s portfolio committee were invited to visit one of our local laboratories the other day where we do DNA testing.

As a result of advances we have made in technology, we were able to produce outstanding results in the baby Tshepang and De Klerk cases. We need legislation of course to enable us to keep some DNA material.

In conclusion …

The SPEAKER: You have six minutes, Minister, you do not need to worry about your time.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, I am still going to come back, so, I will be happy to finish here.

In conclusion, I would like to quote, for the information of the hon members of this House, an excerpt from a speech which was delivered by the British Prime Minister, Mr Tony Blair, on the rebalancing of the criminal justice system in his country. He said:

Criminal justice systems, born out of a quite necessary and proper desire to protect at all costs the civil liberties of the innocent, seem cumbersome, out of date and therefore ineffectual in convicting the guilty.

I have argued that the time has come to move to the next stage of our overhaul of the criminal justice system - to build on what we have already achieved by rebalancing the system to deliver a fair balance between the rights of victims, witnesses, the rest of law-abiding society and the defendant.

I want to put it to this hon House that this is exactly what the Deputy President said the other day at Bonteheuwel.

I am also in charge of the Independent Complaints Directorate and I would like, therefore, to say the following: The ICD budget for 2002-03 increased by 19% from the previous year, which will enable the directorate to increase its internal capacity to investigate complaints against the police and raise the level of its administration in implementing obligatory legislation on corporate governance.

The number of complaints falling within the mandate of the ICD during the last financial year amounted to 4 433, representing therefore an increase of 31,9% from the previous financial year. The number of deaths in custody or as a result of police action investigated during that financial year was 528, a decrease of 9,7% from 585 deaths investigated in the previous period.

Persistent interventions of the ICD and SAPS management have not only led to the decrease in the number of deaths in custody or as a result of police action, but the decrease also confirms the growth of a human rights ethic within the SAPS. The most prevalent cause of death as a result of police action was shootings which occurred mostly during the course of arrest and while the alleged crime was being committed.

It is important to know that deaths in police custody are not necessarily due only to negligence on the part of the police but have been attributed to such factors as natural causes, suicide, injuries sustained in custody and prior to custody. Reports to the ICD of alleged serious criminal offence committed by SAPS members have increased by 46,8%. Incidents of misconduct allegedly committed by SAPS members and reported to the ICD have also increased by 22,8% compared to the same period in 2001-02. It is evident that personnel expenditure will dominate this year’s budget and, over the next three years, will rise to 64%. The reprioritisation of the investigation of complaints means a continued increase in the allocation of more than 12% of the total budget over the medium term.

The ICD will continue to support Nepad initiatives, hosting later this year a policing oversight conference to advocate external policing oversight in different parts of Africa, particularly the SADC region. There is keen interest in our model of policing oversight by Rwanda and Malawi. It is envisaged that we will have to support a number of countries on the continent with technical expertise in the establishment of policing oversight. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I dedicate this speech, firstly, to Nas Abrahams, who is sitting in the gallery and whose son was murdered just a few days ago. We mourn with him and Aisa and the whole family. I dedicate this speech, secondly, to the tens of thousands of good cops we have in South Africa. We are glad that we have them. We are grateful for them, and we want them to know that they have the support of all decent citizens in this country.

The Constitution states that national security must reflect the resolve of all South Africans to be free from fear. Our Bill of Rights states that everyone has the right to freedom and security of the person'' and the rightto be free from all forms of violence’’. Yet, quite the opposite is true. South Africans do not enjoy these freedoms, but many live with the fear - and the memory - of violent crime. Several millions have become crime victims since 1994.

The Constitution protects the fundamental freedoms of all South Africans and it makes clear that it is the Government’s duty to maintain the rule of law, and to ensure the safety of all citizens. Those that break the law must accept the responsibility for their actions, face criminal charges and, if found guilty, be sentenced to jail. Those whose job it is to uphold the law must be properly trained and properly equipped to do so.

In South Africa today, there is a sickness abroad. That sickness is a refusal or unwillingness by people to accept responsibility for the things for which they are responsible. The people who need to accept the responsibility for bringing the criminals to justice - and for equipping the police to be able to do so - are those who are in Government.

Yet the Government, led by the hon Deputy President, launches an attack on the Constitution. Instead of accepting that his Government has a responsibility to uphold the values of the Constitution which he is sworn to uphold, Deputy President Zuma blamed the Constitution for the unacceptable levels of crime. It seems to me that the Deputy President is tough on the causes of crime and tough on the Constitution. Unfortunately, he is not tough on the criminals.

I have news for him: It is not the Constitution which murders or rapes or robs people; it is the criminals who do so. Mr Zuma and the Government must accept that they need to arrest, try and, if convicted, punish the criminals. Those who are charged with the responsibility must accept it and do something about it.

Everyone has the right to freedom and security and the right to be free from all forms of violence. Yet, the victims of driveway violence in Johannesburg, which has now become a plague, are treated in a cruel, inhuman way when they are forced to lie on the ground at gunpoint and hand over their wedding rings and their watches. They are lucky if they are not shot.

What the Deputy President must accept is that the Government and two successive Ministers of safety and security have failed and the present one, nice man that he is, is in the process of failing. He spent his whole young life trying to persuade the masses that, come the revolution, South Africa will be paradise. The tragedy is that the revolution has come and gone and SA is now a gangsters’ paradise. And he is the person who is responsible for doing something about it, and they are not fully accepting that responsibility. [Interjections.]

The ANC Government seems very satisfied to claim that crime levels in the country have stabilised. This makes a mockery of the unacceptably high level at which it has remained for a number of years, and clouds the fact that the goal is not to stabilise crime, but to reduce it and then to eradicate it. At the very least, the criminals must pay for their deeds, but unsolved crime and unsuccessful prosecutions are increasing and not declining.

Everywhere I travel in our country, I visit police stations which are grossly undermanned, underskilled and underequipped. In Uitenhage 10 days ago, I found that police stations are between 28% and 50% understaffed. The shortage of detectives is chronic, with some detectives having more than 200 case dockets in places like Kamesh and KwaNobuhle.

How can anyone investigate more than 200 cases and give good service and deliver reasonable results? You, Mr Minister, set our police up for failure. And then we blame them; we blame them when we should be blaming the politicians who do not have the will to really make a difference.

Winning the war aginst crime takes a lot more than ``stabilising’’ crime levels; it urgently requires a full-scale effort to reduce dramatically and visibly criminal behaviour once and for all. Such an endeavour might be too much of a tall order for some, but anything less means that the lives of South Africans continue to be placed at mortal risk on a daily basis.

I challenge you, Mr Minister, to walk the streets and townships of greater Johannesburg without your bodyguards, so that you can experience what ordinary citizens encounter daily. [Interjections.] Or come with me to Diepsloot in my constituency where the police do not go out at night at all. You have tens of thousands of people who live there unpoliced after dark. That is how ordinary people in this country live.

South Africans do not base their judgment on the war against crime by what Government statisticians tell them. They no longer believe the Government. Ordinary South Africans are the victims of horrific and violent crimes, they are unwilling witnesses to unspeakable atrocities, and they continue to be abused and traumatised. They do not accept that the fight aginst crime is being won, simply because that is not their experience.

I suggest to you that the ANC Government has lost touch with what ordinary South Africans feel and experience on a daily basis. [Interjections.] That includes the hon Minister over there. You must come and walk with me in the townships and you will see what people say about crime. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon members, you may not drown out the speakers; you may interject, but you may not drown out. Order! Order! You may not drown out the speaker; you may interject. Hon member, please proceed.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Chairperson. When I raised the question of the murder rate with the hon Minister in Parliament recently and pointed out that although the police statistics showed a murder rate of 21 683 people - that is in one year; I repeat, one year - Home Affairs says that the figure is 31 000 and the Medical Research Council shows that the number of murders is 32 482.

The hon Minister had the perfect opportunity in the House of standing up and explaining to the House and to the people of South Africa what the situation was and to give us the right figures. Instead of that, he ducked the issue, he launched a political attack on me and said that crime is not fought with statistics. [Interjections.]

I want to tell the hon Minister that he might regard the number of people murdered as mere statistics. The wives and the children and the loved ones who are left behind do not regard those murdered as simply statistics. There are bodies and dead people involved, each one of whom was failed by the criminal justice system.

If the police say only 20 000 were murdered, what has happened to all of the cases which should be investigated? Does this mean that the police are not pursuing an additional 12 000 murders? Are they unaware of the fact that these murders have taken place? All of this is unconscionable and the Minister needs to explain it to the House today. Just remember: Twelve thousand extra bodies. Twelve thousand extra bereaved spouses; heaven knows how many bereaved children. Twelve thousand murderers on the loose. Minister, do not give us 12 000 damned lies or evasions.

In a democratic country, the people are entitled to know. In a democratic parliament, MPs are entitled to know what the truth is. How can MPs do their job properly and assess whether the priorities are correct and adequate if we do not know what the incidence of crime is, and what the trends and tendencies are?

As far as the crime statistics are concerned, I will launch proceedings in terms of the Promotion of Access to Information Act tomorrow. The Minister is right in saying that statistics do not fight crime. The measure of his performance will not necessarily be the statistics.

The measure of his performance will be whether the crime situation becomes appreciably better in South Africa, whether the morale in the police force improves, whether the number of prosecutions which are successfully completed increases, and whether people regain confidence in the criminal justice system. But we are entitled to the crime statistics because we have an oversight job as MPs. And we intend carrying out that job.

This Government continues to lose public credibility. It does not take the fight against crime seriously where it routinely releases criminals back onto the streets. President Mbeki undoes the work of the SAPS, prosecutors and justice officials when he unapologetically pardons hardened criminals - some of whom will continue to lead a life of crime. Can there be a bigger insult to those who are fighting crime than a wave of the President’s hand which undoes all their hard work?

And we have suggestions now that more criminals should be pardoned and should be let out, so that we can have room in our jails for the people who have not been convicted. So, it is a wonderful system where you let the criminals out, so that you can let those who may not be criminals have their places, and we then pay thousands of rands a month for each person to keep them there.

The DA does not simply criticise and complain. The Government needs to be reminded of the daily efforts of those on the frontline in this fight. Many policemen and women put their lives on the line every day and their efforts are recognised and admired and supported.

But what we must do, Chairperson, is that we must look at where we can do something about the problem, and we say what you need to do in South Africa is to have police where the people can see them. That means in the streets where we live, that means in the townships and the suburbs where we live.

We say that neighbourhood police stations must be strengthened. They must be brought up to strength. We are talking about 150 000 cops in South Africa. Once the police stations are up to strength, you must equip the policemen with the skills to do the job. And then you have to see that they have adequate equipment to carry out their tasks.

And then once you have done that, the state has carried out its side of the bargain, then you can start having performance targets and agreements with police and then you hold them accountable. And those who fail, get fired and those who succeed, get promoted and rewarded.

Surely, in that way, we can make a contribution towards improving the situation in this country and start getting crime under control and regaining the confidence of the people of this country.

Our recently published crime policy was handed to the Minister, and I hope and pray that some of the suggestions which we make will find their way into Government policy in due course, as they did with the last lot.

In addition to the performance contracts which we have suggested for policemen right down at the bottom, I want to say that the hon Minister should also accept a performance contract. [Interjections.] And if he succeeds, then he deserves all the credit and he needs to be promoted; but if he fails, he will have breached his performance contract and then he should be fired. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr M E GEORGE: Deputy Chairperson, Minister of Safety and Security Comrade Charles Nqakula, comrades and hon members, I rise to support this Budget Vote of 2003-04 on behalf of the ANC. The 11% increase will go a long way towards achieving the goals that were set by the President in his state of the nation address, that is, ``improving the capacity of the SAPS to discharge its crime prevention and combating responsibilities.’’

Whilst I do not like to always refer to the past, I must state that the ANC- led Government inherited a police force that was highly centralised, paramilitary and authoritarian against any collective challenges to apartheid. Consequently, the police were poorly equipped for crime control and prevention under a new democratic dispensation.

Section 205(3) of the Constitution states that the objective of the SA Police Service, amongst other things, is to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic - note, all inhabitants, not as in the past - and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law. This objective is in line with the Freedom Charter’s vision that proclaimed in 1955 that: ``There shall be peace and friendship’’.

To achieve these objectives, the Government introduced a philosophy of community policing to make sure that the inherited police force is transformed into a professional and effective law enforcement police service, a police service that will never again infringe on human rights.

This community policing approach - true to its premise that a community and its police service are equal partners with shared responsibilities in ensuring safety and security - has produced good progress because it has yielded partnerships with relevant departments, relevant sectors and the community at large. This partnership is a necessary strategy that is not only turning the tide against crime, but will also initiate and implement programmes to fight the scourge of violent crimes, such as rape and gangsterism.

The budget, informed by our National Crime Prevention Strategy, accommodates the increase in police numbers by 45 000 members by the 2005- 06 financial year. This holistic approach against crime refuses to look at crime only in terms of statistics and numbers of police. Of course, I’m not alluding that statistical data for measuring crime is useless. Any good democracy needs good statistical data to be able to identify and measure patterns and trends of criminal activities. However, statistical data must not be politicised and not be overemphasised as if it is the only measure for solving crime, as the previous speaker tried to do.

Safety and security for all citizens does not only mean 150 000 more police on the streets as some would like us to believe. Combating violent crimes against women and children will not be successful by merely increasing police in the streets because some of these crimes happen indoors. That is the reason this Government, led by the ANC, emphasises the importance of the justice, crime prevention and security cluster, that is the JCPS. The success of the 16 Days of Activism Against Abuse of Women and Children during November and December 2002 by this cluster is commendable. To create an impression or even to say that nothing is being done, as Mr Gibson tried to do, about the abuse of children and women is highly irresponsible.

The training and enlisting of more police officials will enhance visible policing, not only in the urban areas, but in the rural areas as well. We want to make sure that rural areas are given equal emphasis. Some people would like the farmers to believe that this Government does not care about farm killings because to them farm killings affect only farm owners. This Government, however, also acknowledges that attacks against farm residents or workers are just as much a big problem.

The Government has embarked on a rural safety plan that sees to it that the police equally protect farmers and farmworkers. Phasing out the commandos, which have their own history, is a major step taken by this Government to ensure that all residents on farms, that is farm owners and workers, are protected. The Government has made sure that rural safety is not compromised. That is the reason that, each month, 9 000 reservists are activated to support the envisaged 35 sector policing units. The restructuring of the SAPS is one of the most critical tasks of the Government. The closing down of some of the specialised units does not mean that those tasks have now ceased to exist, but that they are now included in multidisciplinary units to avoid unnecessary duplication and redundancy. The restructuring of these units into Organised Crimes, Serious and Violent Crimes, Commercial Crimes and Crimes against Women and Children, means leaner, effective and easily monitored units.

Another leg of restructuring was the implementation of Resolution 7 of 2002, which I must state was not meant for the police alone, but for all government departments. The main aims of Resolution 7 of 2002 are: one, equal distribution of skills and other resources to bridge the divide on how the rich and the poor are policed in this country; two, to improve service delivery; and, three, to progressively implement the SAPS national employment equity so that the Police Service reflects the true demographics of this country.

This restructuring and transformation within the SAPS has resulted in a state of panic among those who are unhappy with the change. They are threatening to carry out all sorts of actions against the department, and some of them are even supported by some political parties in this Chamber. The national commissioner and the Minister will definitely sort out any genuine problems or complaints. The Minister indicated this when he was briefing the safety and security portfolio committee. However, it must be emphasised that the transformation of the SAPS constitutes progress towards rebuilding the nation, sharing skills and enhancing the safety and security of the country.

The greatest concern of all peace-loving South Africans is the high rate of police killings. Community policing is meant to facilitate mutual respect and understanding between the Police Service and the local community it serves. This is endorsed by the Constitution, section 206(3)(c), which says: ``to promote good relations between the police and the community’’. The community must realise that the killing of police officials is against the Constitution and hence against the hard-fought-for democracy and related achievements of this country.

This Government will continue to enhance measures of safety and security for our police members. This Parliament must look at the laws and check if they are adequate enough to make criminals think twice before killing a police official. An attack on the police is an attack on our democracy.

The ugly head of vigilantism is re-emerging. Some politicians in this House have tried to justify these acts of barbarism by putting the blame on the police, alluding to the police’s inability to deal with crime. These prophets of doom allege that vigilantism is a manifestation of the public’s frustration with the criminal justice system. Whilst this is debatable, trying to resolve crime and conflict in a violent way cannot be as a result of frustration, but criminal aggravation against other human beings.

The police will continue to work with the public to insist on proper law enforcement rather than resorting to vigilantism. The police - I must emphasise what the Minister said - will not hesitate to act against any act of vigilantism of any kind.

Yes, the SAPS is still facing enormous challenges in combating crime. Corruption within the SAPS and lack of skills are some of the factors contributing to allegations of sloppy work by police officials. There are indeed constant complaints against the police for their slow response to calls of emergency, if they respond at all. The division Crime Prevention is currently addressing these complaints as a matter of urgency in order to ensure that the response to calls will be enhanced, thus ensuring professional and rapid response to incidents of crime. Remedies to the situation include: one, updating of equipment or technology in 10111 centres; two, developing uniform task-specific training courses to enhance the knowledge and skills of all members performing functions in these centres and police stations; and, three, implementing sector policing to ensure that the response times to attend to complaints decrease and that service delivery improves.

It must be acknowledged, though, that the following are other inhibiting factors that also have an influence on response times: one, road and weather conditions; two, unclear identification of residences and street names in urban, rural and informal settlements; three, peak traffic periods; and, four, environmental design of suburbs. These inhibiting factors are also being addressed in co-operation with local government. The communities again will be of great assistance in this regard. Report to CPFs and MPs in your areas where police are responding or not doing their job properly.

In conclusion, this Government must be commended on turning the tide against crime. Many of our people are beginning to realise the importance of their role in fighting crime. That is the reason some serious crimes were quickly and easily diffused with the assistance of the community.

Community police forums have been established all over the country and they meet and discuss means and ways of preventing crime, and the role that can be played by communities. We commend these CPFs for discussing positively how they can prevent attacks so that they can create a safe environment.

I want to appeal again to members of all parties to speak with one voice against crime. We have done that successfully in our portfolio committee, but since the elections are drawing close, I can see that people are getting lost again. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

It is saddening to discover that some parties are even using crime for electioneering purposes. They even bring people here so that they can pretend that they are more sympathetic to the people than anybody else. They even get carried away by their imagination and suggest that there is chaos in this country. No reasonable person will believe that there is chaos in this country. There is only chaos in their minds. Even criminals are shocked at how the police make it difficult for them to commit crimes.

Though the levels of crime are still unacceptably high, we can say with confidence that we have turned the tide and the people are generally safer than they were before 1994. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: The allocation for the Department of Safety and Security has increased from R19,7 billion to almost R21,9 billion in the current budget. This is an increase of over R2 billion, which is around 11%.

The budget increases of the SAPS have consistently been over 10%, which is an indication that Government is at least somewhat serious about getting the crime rate down. A good case can be made out that this budget will not be enough to bring down crime dramatically and that not enough money is being spent on the criminal justice system as a whole.

There are also parties in this House that will be voting against this budget on the basis that not enough money is given to the department. What they need to know is that not only have the increases in the police budget consistently been higher than the inflation rate, but police top management has said categorically that this budget is sufficient.

At the budget briefing to the committee a few weeks ago, management made it clear to us that if they do not deliver a good and acceptable service to the public, they will not be able to blame it on this budget. There can thus be very little doubt that the police budget has moved a long way in the right direction during the last few years.

The Police Service needs to be praised for many successes. Financial management has improved by leaps and bounds; the vehicle fleet is getting younger; representivity in the service has improved and absenteeism, which was a major problem a few years ago, was brought down to a much more acceptable level. In some areas of the country, the police have brought down crime quite effectively and there is no doubt that many of the police’s units and operations are very successful.

When one takes into consideration, though, that the taxpayer now spends over R20 billion a year on the Police Service, it is debatable whether the public is getting a good return on its rather large investment. Too many people are still having very bad experiences with our Police Service. We have become so used to mediocre service from the SAPS, especially in some of our townships, that we are most impressed if we phone the police with a complaint and the police vehicle arrives within an hour or two. Try and phone many of our police stations and see whether your call gets answered at all. I know this is not a popular thing to say, but unfortunately it happens to be true.

On 14 March this year, three months ago, a member of the public laid a complaint of theft at the Walmer police station in Port Elizabeth. The case involved the theft of a R20 000 laptop computer and the name and address and even the telephone numbers of the suspect were supplied in the statement from the complainant. Until today, the complainant has yet to hear from the detective. The complainant contacted the head of detectives at the police station, who assured the complainant that he would get a phone call from the detective within an hour. This was a month ago; the complainant is still waiting.

There are many examples of a similar nature that one can unfortunately mention. For example, there is the lady who was hijacked at a big shopping centre in Port Elizabeth at three o’ clock on a Friday afternoon. She phoned the police twice in a matter of one hour and another three times over the weekend. On the Sunday evening an officer eventually came to see her. Is this the type of service the taxpayer deserves for the over R20 billion that it now invests in the Police Service in a year? I think the answer is quite obvious.

We should be very clear on this issue. There are many excellent policemen and women who do excellent work and we are very thankful to them for that. However, in general, in South African society, there is a malaise as far as work ethic is concerned and, unfortunately, many members of the South African Police Service suffer from this malaise.

Many people say that police morale and work ethic will be greatly boosted if police personnel are paid better. The IFP believes that there can be very little doubt that people in especially the lower ranks of the SAPS are underpaid. Raising their salary levels could well go some way towards addressing the malaise you find amongst some, although this will not in itself be the cure for all the ills. Many people in South Africa earn great salaries but that does not make them that much more productive.

Many other things need to be in place. Your own attitude needs to be in place as well. Recently, I asked a detective why he had not attended to a certain case docket for more than three months. He told me that he was first on leave, then on study leave, and then on sick leave. When I asked him about the sick leave, I found out that he was on sick leave due to stress. On further investigation, it became apparent that his stress had nothing to do withW his work. It was all personal and family-related stress. The public must now get poor service from the police, because he and his wife cannot sort out their problems. We all have stress and problems in our lives, but many of us still come to work, because we have something called a conscience.

Die IVP is baie opgewonde oor die feit dat baie nuwe rekrute tans opleiding ondergaan met baie duisende nuwe personeel wat oor die volgende paar jaar opgelei sal word.

Al waaroor ons effens bekommerd is, is die feit dat basiese opleiding van ses na drie maande gesny is. Ons vertrou dat dit nie die kwaliteit sal beïnvloed nie en dat ons nie minder gekwalifiseerde personeel in die veld sal stoot nie. Die IVP is baie bekommerd oor moorde op polisiemanne en -vrouens. Ons steun die verpligte lewenslange vonnis vir sulke moordenaars en waardeer die feit dat die staat nou ‘n R200 000 betaling sal maak aan die gesin van ‘n vermoorde polisiebeampte.

Hierdie is alles stappe in die regte rigting. Ons kry egter nog nie die indruk dat polisiemoorde die aandag kry wat dit verdien nie. ‘n Aanval op ‘n polisiebeampte moet as ‘n aanval op die staat gesien word. Alhoewel moorde op polisiebeamptes al verminder het, is die meer as 100 per jaar geheel en al onaanvaarbaar en moet dit as ‘n krisis bestempel word.

Alles inaggenome, is daar baie uitdagings en vraagstukke wat die departement en die polisie mee moet worstel. Met harde werk en goeie ondersteuning van die publiek, is dit egter nie onmoontlik om misdaad beduidend te laat afkom en na meer aanvaarbare vlakke toe te bring nie. Die droom om misdaad hok te slaan is nie so onmoontlik soos wat sommige van ons dink nie.

Die IVP sal die begroting steun. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The IFP is very excited about the fact that many new recruits are currently being trained along with many thousands of new personnel who will be trained over the next few years.

The only thing we are slightly worried about is the fact that basic training was cut down from six to three months. We trust that this will not influence the quality and that we will not push less qualified personnel into the field. The IFP is concerned about the killing of policemen and policewomen. We support the mandatory life sentence for such murderers and appreciate the fact that the state will now make a payment of R200 000 to the family of a murdered police officer.

These are all steps in the right direction. However, we still do not gain the impression that police killings are getting the attention this deserves. An attack on a police officer should be seen as an attack on the state. Although the killing of police officers has already decreased, the over 100 per year is totally unacceptable and should be seen as a crisis. All things considered, there are many challenges and questions that the department and the police are struggling with. With hard work and sufficient support from the public it is, however, not impossible to reduce crime dramatically and bring it back to more acceptable levels. The dream to curb crime is not as impossible as many of us think.

The IFP will support the budget. [Applause.]]

Me ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister, die DA het vandag ‘n laagtepunt bereik in goedkoop politiek. Dit is eenvoudig siek om die smart en hartseer van een gesin so uit te buit vir 30 sekondes van sensasie. Ek wil namens die ANC verskoning vra vir alle slagoffers van misdaad wie se werklike pyn deur hierdie optrede goedkoop gemaak word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the DA has reached the lowest point in cheap politics today. Exploiting the pain and sadness of one family in such a way for 30 seconds of sensation is just plain sick. On behalf of the ANC I want to apologise to all victims of crime whose real pain has been cheapened through this behaviour.]

For the ANC, fighting crime in South Africa is a priority. This is clearly reflected in the consistent increase of resources annually for the SAPS specifically and the justice, crime prevention and security cluster in general. The commitment of the hon Minister, his Deputy, the senior management of the South African Police Service and the thousands of loyal members of the SAPS echoes the fight against crime as a Government priority. But, above all, it is embodied in those members of the SAPS who paid the ultimate price in the fight against crime. It is against this background that I speak in support of this Budget Vote.

It was with a degree of amazement that I listened to the hon Gibson when he spoke.

Daar is ‘n liedjie in Afrikaans wat sê: [There is a song in Afrikaans that goes as follows:]

Die kat kom weer, hy wou nie langer wag. Die kat kom weer net die volgende dag, en glo vir my dis waar, net die anderdagmôre was die kat weer daar!

It seems that the hon Gibson is the DA’s proverbial cat with nine lives! [Interjections.]

In rugby, they talk of impact players. It appears to me, as a novice supporter of the game, that most of the time these players are not fit enough to play the full game, so they are sent on the field for the 20 minutes before the end of the game.

The DA has also adopted this game plan. The 20 minutes before the end of the match for them is the elections and instead of sticking with their trusted players who constructively try to make a contribution throughout the match, they send in their impact player. [Applause.] The problem is, more than often this very impact player also costs the team the match. For the ANC, crime is a serious issue. It is not something that can be dealt with in a hit-and-run manner. It affects the life of every citizen of South Africa. The primary victim is the person against whom a criminal act was committed. The secondary victim is every South African citizen, because every criminal act demands resources, human and financial, that could have been focused on other areas where our society needs urgent intervention.

Every citizen is eventually a victim who has to contend with rising insurance premiums, potential job losses and a host of other negative consequences. We are painfully aware of this and of our duty and commitment to fight it in every way possible.

When looking at the reality of crime and the role that the South African Police Service must play in combating crime, there are people who forget where we come from. They conveniently forget about the many challenges that faced the SAPS after 1994. They forget that prior to 1994, the then South African Police Force policed the movement of people and supressed the political opponents of the apartheid regime.

For them, the reality of the amalgamation of 11 police forces into a single transformed South African Police Service, policing on an equal basis all of South Africa’s people and through that transforming the force into a service, gaining the trust and support of the majority of South Africans, is but an academic exercise.

They conveniently forget about the poorly trained and sometimes illiterate ``kitskonstabels’’ [special constables]. For them the difference in training standards and the unequal spread of resources, both physical and human, are the problems of others; it does not impact on their reality.

I see the impact player is off the field again. [Laughter.]

Jonny Steinberg writes in Crime Wave: Crime brings out the dark side of our natures, not least because our responses to it are often drunken and ugly. Crime gives rise to populist politicians who are cheered on when they call for blood; it gives birth to vengeful mobs who execute people on the streets.

A South African novelist wrote:

We shall live from day to day, and put more locks on the doors and get a fine, fierce dog when the fine, fierce bitch next door has pups, and hold onto our handbags more tenaciously … we shall be careful and knock this out of our lives and knock that out of our lives, and hedge ourselves about with safety and precaution … They are holding a meeting in Parkworld tonight … And the people will ask for more police and for heavier sentences for the housebreakers, and for the death penalty for all who carry weapons when they break in.

Alan Paton wrote these words in 1946 in his celebrated novel Cry, the beloved country. We can go even further back than 1946. Shula Marks, in Reluctant rebellion, written about the turn of the previous century, writes about Durbanites complaining that they walk their suburbs in mortal fear. The truth is that crime and the fear of crime is as old as South Africa itself. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

And, again, as I believe Jonny Steinberg correctly summarises it:

Our preoccupation with crime is testimony to how this country was stitched together with violence, to how we worry that evil is our most abiding pedigree. Fear in this country is saturated with politics; it is the product of generations of estrangement between races, classes and individuals.

We become hostages of that fear and we need to break free from it. While we need to realise the seriousness of the problem that faces us, we also need to allow ourselves the latitude of celebrating our victories. And there are victories to celebrate. Since 1994 murder has come down by 34%. Why do we not take the time to celebrate that, to draw inspiration from it and put it to positive use to motivate those responsible to bring the murder figure down even further? [Applause.]

For the past two years, we have heard continous murmuring over specialised units that have been closed down, and claims that, in the process, skills are lost. I want to use this opportunity to divorce the truth from the propaganda.

In the past, organised crime, serious and violent crimes were investigated in a fragmented way by special investigation units - a shotgun approach: drug-related crime by the Narcotics Bureau, vehicle-related crime by the Vehicle Crime Investigations Unit, etc.

In 2000, the SAPS implemented an integrated strategic plan which primarily focuses on combating organised, serious and violent crimes. In combating organised crime the focus is on syndicates involved in crimes relating to drugs, firearms and vehicles, corruption and commercial crimes.

In combating serious and violent crimes, the focus is on the proliferation of small firearms and their impact on incidents of murder, armed robberies, heists and hijacking. The focus is on high crime areas, intergroup violence, including political violence, taxi and train violence, gang violence, faction fighting and flashpoint areas. In practice, this entails that most of the specialised units will eventually be phased out and their functions incorporated into organised crime units, serious and violent crime units and commercial branches, as well as local detective units.

The advantages of such a system are obvious for all to see. In fact, when the late Minister Tswete - on June 7, 2001, in this Budget Vote - introduced these steps, it was enthusiastically received by the majority of the political parties in this House.

Multidisciplinary units could now be placed where major threats exist. Skewed resource allocation and low productivity were addressed. Suspected corrupt activities in some of these specialised units were neutralised and the functionality of the police at local level - that is, the police in the neighbourhood, hon Gibson - was enhanced. The lack of transformation in some of these units could also begin to be addressed.

This has numerous benefits for the SAPS and the country and the fight against crime. It has already had a significant impact on the incidence of organised crime and priority crimes. It will strengthen our capacity to deal with crime at local level and contribute significantly to cost- effectiveness, efficiency and increased productivity.

Allow me to mention one example: On 2 January 2002, the Proceeds of Crime Investigation Desk was established. It is located at head office and follows up on suspicious transaction reports, ie suspected money-laundering transactions. They work closely with the Financial Intelligence Centre.

For the period 1 April 2002 to 3 February 2003, the Proceeds of Crime Investigation Desk received a total of 1 746 suspicious transaction reports. Twelve accused were arrested and tried. The Asset Forfeiture Unit, due to these investigations only, seized R1 084 000 and the Reserve Bank froze R23 014 000 that, under any other circumstances, would have left the country. Now this is no small achievement in merely a year of existence, and bodes well for the future.

Furthermore, in less than a year, more than 95 syndicates were closed down because of this approach. Imagine the number of crimes that have been prevented and the number of victims saved because of this. But, yes, hon Minister, we will not read this in the newspapers, the opposition will not make statements in the House reflecting on this, and it will not be celebrated. [Applause.]

Hon Minister, it is clear that despite the negative publicity and the embedded pessimism on the part of some in this House, this is indeed the correct approach. We will support and encourage any actions from your side to enhance this integrated approach, not only within the structures of the SAPS, but also increasingly between all different role-players within the justice, crime prevention and security cluster. Indeed, the tide has begun to turn against criminals. Join me in celebrating this. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I just have a point of order, Chairperson, a point of clarification.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Is it a procedural matter?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes. If a member is standing there at the podium, and the member refers to the members on this side of the House, then, because I am on this side of the House, George is on this side of the House, the other member there is also on this side of the House …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, I think I get your drift and I think, yes, you have a point.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I am also being blamed, you see. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I am sure it was not the intention of the member to direct it, but I would like, as a matter of procedure, to advise you, when you are actually pointing to the side of the House, to be more specific as to which part of the House you are pointing to. Your point is taken, hon Minister. Hon Schippers, you may now proceed.

Mr J SCHIPPERS: Deputy Chair, the New NP also wants to echo the words of appreciation of the hon Minister and others in paying tribute to the fallen heroes who died in the line of duty in the SA Police Service. We thank them for their hard work and dedication.

This budget of Safety and Security and the Independent Complaints Directorate addresses all the issues that the hon President touched on in his state of the nation address in Parliament on 14 February 2003.

With an increase of 11%, or R2,68 billion, on last year’s budget, and almost 16% of the total Budget, the Government has, for the second year in a row, showed its commitment that fighting crime is their priority. It is also pleasing to note that the SAPS spent also 100% of the budget for the previous financial year. A new feature that has been brought into the Budget Vote is that the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework is divided into a baseline allocation and an additional allocation.

Although there is an annual increase in monetary terms, it actually decreases in percentage over the three-year period. The specifications for the additional allocation of R819 million are clearly spelt out in the budget under the item ``Baseline Adjustments’’.

If we focus on the six programmes, namely administration, crime prevention, operational response services, detective services, crime intelligence, and protection services, we notice that the three main cylinders on which the SAPS operates show the largest individual increases in the budget. Those programmes are administration, 13,04; crime prevention, 12,01%; and crime intelligence, 16,62%. In the administration programme, corporate services consumes R6, 191 billion of the provided allocation.

According to a document, Human Resource Distribution, presented this year to the portfolio committee by Commissioner Stander, the SAPS fulfilled their promise in enlisting 16 000 new recruits. In terms of numbers, the three major crime-ridden provinces, namely Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape, benefited, and rightly so. Also, the personnel losses amounting to a total of 3 141 followed the same pattern. During this financial year, it is estimated that 9 550 new constables and 4 010 new civilians will be enlisted, giving a total of 13 000 new recruits.

The expected personnel losses amount to 4 000. The total human resource distribution for the SAPS will then be approximately 140 000 to combat crime effectively. I want to agree with the hon Ferreira that the picture is not as bleak and ominous as the DA document, Freedom from Fear, tries to suggest. It is not the sole function and the responsibility of the police only to fight crime, but is also that of each and every individual in this country. If you take into account all the private security agencies in the private sector, they also combat crime in a visible and positive way. If we add their numbers to that of the SAPS, we total approximately 180 000 people.

The Independent Complaints Directorate fulfils a very important role. The intake of the complaints falling under their mandate up to 31 December 2002 amounted to 2 286, a decrease of 10,3% compared to the same period the previous year. There was an increase of 14,7% in serious criminal offences committed by SAPS members. This is alarming and unacceptable. In my opinion, unions should not only fight for the rights of their members, but also discipline them to create a work-friendly environment.

Incidents of misconduct reported to the ICD decreased by 8,3%. A total of 427 allegations of criminal offences were reported nationally. The majority, namely 142, were committed in Gauteng; in the Western Cape, 74; in Limpopo, 63, and fewer in the other provinces. Misconduct reported amount to 1 493 cases, of which 89,4% related to negligence of duty by police officers. In the investigative findings of 222 notifications of death as a result of SAPS or metro action, only 159 were substantiated, meaning prima facie evidence of police criminality were uncovered. In 20 cases, no evidence of police criminality could be found, and 43 cases are still under investigation.

The New NP wants to urge the national commissioner and the public at large to report all cases that fall within the mandate of the ICD to them, so that we can have a proper and legal investigation to rid the police of all the bad apples.

The DA’s announced ``Freedom from Fear’’ anticrime campaign instils a disappointing feeling of déjà vu , for almost every one of their self- claimed solutions were published in the New NP election manifesto of 1999. Amongst those are a register for convicted sex offenders; tax rebates for private security expenses; double-time prison sentences for criminals who prey on women and children; additional sentences for violent crimes by use of legal weapons and where police officers are attacked or killed, and that juvenile offenders older than 16 should be held accountable for their own actions.

On numerous occasions the New NP spokesperson for health and correctional services has asked that HIV-negative prisoners who have the right to be protected against fellow inmates who are HIV-positive be separated in prison. The New NP-ANC co-operative Government in the Western Cape are in the forefront with regard to negotiations for the establishment of a register for convicted sex offenders.

In conclusion, the DA can not come up with any true or innovative solutions for South Africans’ crime problems, and they make themselves guilty of hijacking old New NP policy, claiming it as their own. In true DA style and fashion, they marginalise the work being done by the SAPS and the Minister of Safety and Security. I thank you. [Applause.]

Miss J E SOSIBO: Deputy Chair, hon Minister and hon members, it is a pleasure for me to support, on behalf of the ANC, this Budget Vote for Safety and Security. I would like to commend the hon Minister for the task that his department is performing in the battle against crime.

When we assumed power as a democratically elected Government in 1994, we never pronounced that everything was going to be smooth sailing. We knew that the real battle and struggle for the total emancipation of our people from poverty, disease, and the lack of a safe and secure environment was actually beginning when the overwhelming majority of our people mandated the ANC to lead them into a new era of a better life for all.

The ANC never promised to provide our people with cake instead of bread, wine instead of water, mansions instead of decent homes, nor eternal life instead of a secure and safe environment. We have a track record as an organisation that has never abandoned its real promises to the people. The history of the ANC as the liberation movement speaks for itself. When we vowed under brutal state repression by the apartheid government that, through sweat and blood, we would lead our people into a free, nonracial, nonsexist and democratic South Africa, we were not dreaming or making a mere, unachievable promise. We were making a serious and imminent revolutionary commitment to our people, which we indeed achieved.

Our crime prevention strategies, as shown by the National Crime Prevention Strategy, are multipronged and sectoral strategies that integrate various components such as justice, defence, social development, health, arts and culture, etc in developing similarly departmental focused strategies to combat the scourge of crime. The Ministry should be commended for ensuring that an additional expenditure of R36 million has been set aside over the MTEF period to promote the implementation of the Firearms Control Act. It is a foregone conclusion that the majority of violent crimes are committed with firearms, be they licensed or unlicensed. This new budgeted amount will now ensure that the department will put in place a firearm control system, or FCS, to manage effectively the relevant business processes pertaining to all firearms and ammunition, from the time of manufacture or import through individual ownership, until such firearms and ammunition are either exported or destroyed. This is a component of the National Crime Prevention Strategy.

We are aware that all the objectives of this Act will not be achieved overnight, but we need to move at a fast pace to give effect to section 10 of the Firearms Control Act of 2000 in terms of ensuring the effective implementation of the firearm-free zones. The horrible crimes being committed at various schools here in the Western Cape and in Gauteng, many of which are attributed to illegal and unlawful use of firearms by pupils, are becoming a great danger and threat to a free, safe and secure learning environment. We need to simply introduce measures such as school safety projects or campaigns to decriminalise the learning environment.

The increased budget with respect to new technology at air, sea and land borders needs to be commended. It is quite obvious that, judging by the Minister’s report during the ministerial media briefings early this year with regard to the use of IT by the SAPS, quite a number of successes have been achieved. The effective use of a computerised system by the SAPS cannot go unnoticed. The sophistication and complexity of the modus operandi of organised syndicates calls for a need for our men and women in blue to gain the upper hand in the fight against crime by matching fire with fire. It is quite encouraging to notice that a number of priority crimes were resolved through the use of IT during the year 2002 in terms of tracing goods and stolen vehicles, and monitoring the movements of suspects and vehicles at border posts and other ports of entry.

The importance of civilian oversight over the SAPS cannot be underestimated. Though we are almost 10 years into our democracy, we cannot claim that all is well within the Police Service. Hence, there is a need to consolidate the role of these civilian structures.

The Secretariat for Safety and Security and the Independent Complaints Directorate continue to play an active role in holding the police accountable for their actions and also minimising deaths of persons in custody or as a result of police actions.

These two structures continue to inculcate respect for human rights and contribute to the broader transformation of policing. Whilst we clearly understand the different and distinct roles and functions of these structures, and that they are not in competition with or in opposition to the SAPS, it has, however, got to be emphasised that their continued existence has ensured that our Police Service is accountable to the communities they serve and also that they uphold the democratic values and principles of community policing.

There needs to be more visibility of these structures so that our people can also begin to exploit and utilise the services they offer. Whilst their role may not be directly compared to that of the SAPS, they however have a very great and meaningful function which has to have the support of this department. Whilst some people may question the existence of these bodies, we view them as necessary in ensuring the complete and sustainable transformation of our Police Service.

The strengthening of our community police fora is also another matter that has to be addressed. The question of the funding and sustainability of these structures that are vehicles for the transformation of the Police Service at local level is a matter that needs the serious attention of the department and all other role-players and stakeholders involved in the safety and security sector. We cannot have situations where these independent bodies, established through legislation, are rendered toothless and ineffective because of financial constraints. More needs to be done to consolidate those that are already doing a sterling job and further resuscitate those that might be struggling.

In conclusion, the President highlighted in his state of the nation address that the success of our criminal justice system will depend on strengthening the partnerships of the Letsema campaign, with communities volunteering to assist the security agencies in their work. We need to consolidate these partnerships so that together we can create a safe and secure environment. The Department of Safety and Security cannot do that on its own.

The successes achieved by sector policing have to be commended. We are already beginning to see police visibility and various demarcated areas, particularly where there is a high concentration of crime, in areas such as Langa, Nyanga, Kwamashu and Mdantsane, to mention a few.

In order to ensure that this initiative achieves its intended results, it has to be further strengthened through the involvement of local municipalities. There is a great need to bring local government councils in the NCPS on board. This has to be done through encouraging the formulation of local crime prevention strategies by local councils. Other provinces have already commenced with this initiative and it is said to be yielding fruitful results. Strategies to fight crime, which are being formulated by local councils, must not be done in a vacuum. They have to be in line with the NCPS and also take into consideration the recommendations of the White Paper on Safety and Security with regard to the involvement of local government in crime prevention.

We are not a crime-ridden society, as pessimists would like the world to believe. Those that bad-mouth this country abroad for their own political agendas and those who opt to fight losing battles are continuing to spread cheap lies about the state of this country’s crime using the race card, and are doomed to failure. The ANC is an old, well-experienced and mighty movement whose good track record in the fight for the emancipation of our people is not matched by any other political organisation in this House. We will still prevail despite the wishful thinking of our opponents. There is no doubt that we are on course to providing a better life for all and a safe and secure environment to all our people

I support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon big mouthÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Laughter] … all parties represented in this House agree that an increase of 11% in the Safety and Security budget is most welcome, given the high crime rate in our country. What we differ on is, undoubtedly, how that budget should have been allocated to different areas of need.

The most important question we need to ask ourselves is whether this budget presented to us will substantially reduce high crime levels, ensure a higher conviction rate as a result of more professional investigations by the police, or result in a better quality service for our communities. A good question that has been asked is whether taxpayers will get value for money as a result of this budget.

The ACDP does not believe so for a number of reasons. Firstly, police officers who should be enforcing law and order say that they are confused about section 49 of the Criminal Procedure Act. Their work is not made easier by the Minister and some senior officers who deny that their ground troops are confused or unsure about what to do to effect an arrest of a dangerous suspect.

The fact that more than 60% of the police that were killed in 2002 did not defend themselves when attacked confirms the sad fact that many of them are not sure whether they can shoot in self-defence or not. Obviously, this has to be corrected.

It is the responsibility of the Minister of Safety and Security to help identify the source of this confusion and the reason 60% of the police in question did not defend themselves when attacked by criminals. Once the reasons are identified, they must be corrected immediately. We can rightly ask the question, “Can the police be expected to protect all our citizens with diligence when they cannot protect themselves?” [Interjections.]

A very interesting observation is that since the national commissioner of the police revealed that 60% of the police killed in 2002 did not defend themselves, human rights commissioners and organisations have not cried foul and these revelations have not made front page headline news in all our major newspapers.

If the report was about 60% of the criminals who were killed by the police, then the people, especially human rights organisations, would be spitting fire even today and demanding a commission of inquiry. I want to ask on behalf of the ACDP whether the Minister is considering any formal commission of inquiry into police killings. If yes, when should the report be expected, and if not, why not? We love and care for all our people and would love to see them empowered to do their work with courage and confidence.

Secondly, desperate members of the community are being tempted to resort to vigilantism because of high crime levels. These members of the community under siege say that some police are refusing to rid their areas of crime and that is why they illegally do it themselves.

Mr D V BLOEM: Hey, are you promoting it? Are you promoting it? [Laughter.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Mamela ndoda, mamela! [Listen, man, listen!] You know I am not. You know I am not. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

Last week, five suspected criminals were necklaced by communities who also claim that the police refused to help them. Why should citizens resort to such extreme measures when they have a Government that should be protecting them?

If Government does not want to see an increase in vigilantism, then they have to do much more than is being done now. An increase in mob justice is nothing but a wake-up call to Government to take drastic measures to end crime before the nation slides into anarchy.

Thirdly, the Minister has been calling members of the public to come forward with information that will lead to the arrest of crime suspects in their communities. Some heeded the call by coming forward with information, only to have their identities revealed by some corrupt officials. Why should citizens continue to risk their lives and safety by reporting criminals to these corrupt police who will alert those criminals about those who reported them?

It is Government’s responsibility to rid the Police Service of all criminals in police uniform. We obviously commend those hardworking police who are doing their service with excellence.

The statistics released by the Independent Complaints Directorate that show that police corruption has increased by more than 100% in a year are worrying. Such statistics destroy public confidence in the police and demoralise those dedicated police officials who want to do their work with excellence and dignity. We salute such officials.

Government needs to reward and encourage all the police officers who serve the communities and this country with excellence but, at the same time, be ruthless and merciless to those that are rotten within the system. The penalties that must be imposed on the police that commit crime must be very high to teach them a lesson that crime does not pay, even when it is committed by the police. [Interjections.]

Supporting this Budget Vote today … [Interjections] … ke tlo o thola wena. [… I am going to get you.] [Laughter.]

Supporting this Budget Vote today would be sending a wrong message that figures in an increased budget will solve our crime problems. No amount of money can do that, and only a willing government can do it. The ACDP urges this Govenment to truly make crime eradication their priority - and not just on paper, as we hear. Government must stop talking about stabilising crime in the so-called ``hot spots’’ and start eradicating crime from all our communities. Our streets must be made safer and our homes must be safer.

The ACDP believes that this can be done if there is a will on the part of Government to do it. Enough innocent women and children have been raped and murdered. Enough is enough. This Government must stop crime now. [Applause.] Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, as ek kyk na die aantal lede van die ANC wat hier teenwoordig is, is dit baie duidelik die ANC gee nie om vir die polisie nie en misdaad is nie vir hulle ‘n prioriteit nie. Inteendeel, dít is die belangstelling wat hulle toon. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die agb Adjunkpresident sê die media het hom verkeerd aangehaal toe hy sou gesê het die Grondwet moet hersien word, want dit beskerm misdadigers te veel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, if I look at the number of members present here from the ANC, it is very clear that the ANC does not care about the police and that crime is not a priority to them. On the contrary, this is the interest they show. [Interjections.]

The hon Deputy President said the media misquoted him when he said that the Constitution should be revised because it protects criminals too much.]

The hon Deputy President said that it was a misquote by the media and what he said was that the people have no respect for the Constitution until they are arrested or in jail, and then call on the Constitution to protect their rights. I want to say to the hon Deputy President, you were actually stating the obvious because that is why some people are criminals. Criminals only misuse laws and the Constitution.

Die gees van die beskerming van menseregte in die Grondwet het nou tot gevolg dat misdadigers se regte beskerm word tot nadeel van die samelewing. Die misdadiger word nou meer beskerm as die wetsgehoorsame burger. Hoekom sê ek dit? Die slagoffer van ‘n misdadiger word nou die aangeklaagde en die misdadiger word nou die slagoffer. Daar is hoeveel gevalle waar mense hulself verdedig teen misdadigers en kriminele, maar dan word die persoon wat homself verdedig het, aangekla vir moord of poging tot moord op die misdadiger, en hy word toegesluit.

Dit is dan geen wonder dat ‘n mens gereeld moet lees van vigilantegroepe wat begin funksioneer in misdaadgeteisterde gebiede nie. As die Grondwet misbruik word deur misdadigers, soos die agb Adjunkpresident gesê het, dan moet die Grondwet hersien word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The spirit regarding the protection of human rights in the Constitution has now resulted in the fact that the rights of criminals are being protected to the detriment of society. The criminals are now being protected more than the law-abiding citizens. Why do I say this? The victim of a criminal now becomes the accused and the criminal now becomes the victim. There are so many cases where people defend themselves against criminals but the person defending himself is then accused of murder or attempted murder of the criminal and is then locked away.

It is then no wonder that one regularly reads about vigilante groups which are starting to function in crime-infested areas. If the Constitution is being abused by criminals, as the hon Deputy President said, then the Constitution should be revised.]

The amendment of the Constitution should be such that it protects the rights of law-abiding citizens above those of criminals. One such amendment is to allow the death penalty for murderers and rapists …

… en die VF vra dit. Dit bring my by artikel 49 van die Strafproseswet. Die bevindings van ‘n navorsingspan is dat die meeste polisielede wat sedert 1996 vermoor is in teregstellingstyl op kort afstand in hul kop of rug doodgeskiet is. Die aantal polisiemoorde in Suid-Afrika is die hoogste in die wêreld. Sewe en sewentig per 100 000, teenoor die VSA se 21 per 100 000. Hoekom is hierdie syfer so hoog? Om ‘n ondersoek beampte aan te haal:

Ons polisiemanne is huiwerig om te skiet, want hulle weet wanneer hulle skiet is hulle in groot moeilikheid.

Dit is juis daardie huiwering wat polisielede se lewens kos. Die uitspraak van die Konstitusionele Hof oor artikel 49 het na my mening juis hierdie situasie geskep.

‘n Week gelede het die agb Minister die lede van die Portefeulje Komitee op Veiligheid en Sekuriteit daarvan beskuldig dat hulle, as wetgewers, die proses rakende artikel 49 strem. Maar wat sê die Minister in die Pretoria News van 12 Junie 2002? Dis amper ‘n jaar gelede: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

… and the FF is asking for that. This brings me to section 49 of the Criminal Procedure Act. The findings of a research team is that most of the police officers who were murdered since 1996 were shot execution-style from a short distance either in the head or back. The number of police murders in South Africa is the highest in the world. Seventy-seven per 100 000, in comparison with the USA’s 21 per 100 000. Why is this figure so high? To quote an investigating officer:

Our policemen are hesitant to shoot, because they know when they shoot they are in big trouble.

It is precisely this hesitation that costs police officers their lives. The Constitutional Court ruling regarding section 49, in my opinion, has created this situation.

A week ago the hon Minister accused the members of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security that they as legislators are hampering the process regarding section 49. But what does the Minister say in the Pretoria News of 12 June 2002? That is almost a year ago:]

``I am comfortable with the court decision and so are the police.’’

Wat sê die Minister verder? Die berig lui: [What does the Minister say further? The article goes as follows:]

Nqakula said the use of force would have to be in line with the court’s ruling and the police were in discussion with the Department of Justice to `ensure that our law is brought into synergy with the Constitutional Court judgment’ as the SAPS did not want to fall foul of the court’s ruling.

That was said a year ago.

Dit is nou amper ‘n jaar later. Hoe lank moet hierdie beraadslaging tussen die Departement van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit en die Departement van Justisie nog voortgaan? Intussen word polisielede vermoor. Die VF vra dat die twee departemente hulle beraadslaging voltooi, en as daar wetwysigings nodig is, laat dit na die Parlement toe kom dat ons polisielewens kan begin red en beskerm. Die agb Minister kan nie elke keer daaragter skuil nie.

Laastens, die agb Minister het gesê die verslag oor plaasmoorde is nou bekend. Ek het vir die agb Minister ‘n afskrif gestuur van sy amptelike antwoord op ‘n vraag wat ek al ‘n jaar gelede gevra het. Sy antwoord het toe al gelui dat die oorsake en die motiewe van plaasmoorde toe alreeds bekend was. Ek wil by die agb Minister weet: hoekom vat hy ‘n jaar voordat hy bekend maak wat daardie motiewe en die oorsake is? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[This is now almost a year later. How long does this consultation between the Department of Safety and Security and the Department of Justice have to continue? In the interim police officers are being murdered. The FF is requesting that the two departments conclude their consultation and if amendments are necessary, let those come to Parliament so that we can start saving and protecting the lives of the police. The hon Minister cannot hide behind that all the time.

Lastly, the hon Minister has said that the report regarding farm murders is now available. I sent the hon Minister a copy of his official reply to a question I asked a year ago. His answer then was that the causes and motives of farm murders were already known at that stage. I want to know from the hon Minister: Why does it take a year before he makes those motives and causes known?]

Mr M A MAZIYA: Chairperson, Minister of Safety and Security, hon members and the department, it amazes one sometimes when you listen to some of the members. It is worse when you listen to members who attend the portfolio committee meetings. But it is even worse when you confuse the church with politics. [Laughter.] On many occasions in the portfolio committee, we have gone over and over that argument of the money and the police. One member indicated that you can put in as much money as you want, but if there is no willingness, crime will never be stopped.

Of course, the matter of section 49, as the members are continuously bringing up in the debate, is a matter that we have continuously discussed. We thought, as the portfolio committee, that it was resolved. There is no confusion in the police. In many police stations that we have visited, the police have confirmed the workshops that have been conducted for them to understand and follow this clause in the Criminal Procedure Act. The police are aware that they have the right to defend themselves. I want to affirm that our security is in good hands. Yes, indeed, it is in good hands. Over the weekend, the hon Tony Leon went to Westbury. He was unable to unpack his programme to fight crime. And, surprisingly, all the hon Gibson could do was make a noise and nothing else.

The Firearms Control Act restricts the random licensing of firearms without a proper check of whether you are fit to possess a firearm, or if you have a safe in your house, and it also seeks to see if you are responsible by even checking with your family whether or not you are violent. It begins to set the pace for a fight against firearms, more especially illegal ones and firearms in the possession of people who are not responsible.

The Act also prevents the use of firearms in crimes and any other negligent use of firearms. The Act gives authority to the police for the removal of all unused and illegal guns from circulation by improving control over possession through control over supply. Of course, this Act will not succeed if the police as the implementers have no plans for implementation. One must congratulate programmes like Operation Sethunya, which recovered 141 illegal firearms in one day in the Western Cape. To date, more that 18 000 have been destroyed by the police this year alone. And yes, there may be parts of the Act that are not ready for implementation since training must still be provided. The police are doing what they know best - crime control through disarming and arresting.

Firearms were used in the so-called previously white schools for both protection and target shooting, as it is alleged. Through this Act, those firearms have been removed, for they are not even licensed. We have seen through Operation Rachel, which works based on co-operation between our Police Service and that of the Mozambican police, that weapons of war were confiscated and destroyed. These two operations have sent a clear message to both the criminals and those who believe in the old order. You cannot own more than one firearm in the name of self-protection. If you have five firearms in the house, and you are attacked, you cannot go out with all the firearms to defend yourself. You must only take one. Why own five?

In our country, we have seen how firearms are carelessly handled. According to the SAPS, 200 000 firearms are still registered in the names of people who died many years ago, because of the delays in how the lawyers are handling matters regarding executors of estates. Some have failed to ensure that those firearms that belonged to those who died were sold or transferred to their heirs.

This budget seeks to help the police carry out their mandate and that of implementing this Act. We hope that the process of speeding up the formulation of the regulations for the Act will be completed soon. I am, of course, passionate about this Act, for I myself am a victim of illegal arms. This day, as I enter this debate, is the day my wife and my son were killed, when vigilantes and the police attacked my house on 1 June 1990. It was five days later that my mother, who was also shot in the same incident, died, three days before she was buried. I do not want my children to experience the same pain I have lived with for 13 years. Hence, I am confident that the police will never bring that period to us again.

The police will continue to act responsibly in serving their country. This was demonstrated by the arrest and confiscation of firearms alleged to have been used when Coin Security was robbed and 17 boxes of assets were removed by force from their premises. During the day, after the robbery, two brave police reservists showed their bravery and stopped a vehicle, only to realise upon searching the vehicle, when they discovered the arms suspected to have been used in the robbery, that their lives were in danger. This is the kind of reaction that is expected from our police. We would like to encourage the two officers to keep up the good work.

The operation to remove firearms from departments is necessary, for we understand that there are more than one million firearms in the possession of some departments. The parks board in KwaZulu-Natal alone carries 900 firearms that cannot be accounted for. We are saying that this cannot be allowed. These firearms must be confiscated, for no one except the Police Service, Intelligence Service, the SANDF and Correctional Services is exempted by the Act. Now, who has licensed other departments?

Of course we know that, during apartheid, teachers and some students were given firearms to kill terrorists. These terrorists today are governing this country and no one’s life is under threat. Those who feel as if their lives are threatened must go to the police. They will be protected by our police.

It is for this reason that the ANC supports this budget. We want the police to reduce the numbers of people who are losing guns daily. We understand that about 82 guns are lost or stolen daily. This analysis shows that the theft and loss of privately owned guns is an important source of illegal firearms for crime. Of course, suicides and domestic violence are committed by the use of legal and illegal firearms. Family mass killings have also been reported, where a family member will decide to go on the rampage.

In the last conference of the ANC - the 51st conference - it was clear in its position when addressing matters of crime in this country. The instruction given by the conference was for every member of the ANC to go out and help the police to fight crime in our country, by either joining them as a reservist or reporting crime to them when you see it being conducted. The emphasis was put on the proliferation … [Time expired.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the PAC supports this Budget Vote but the PAC believes, however, that there should have been a higher allocation in view of the challenging work which our police and this nation have to do to reduce crime in our country.

Crime is an impediment to investment and the general economic development of our country and job creation. Before I go further in discussing this budget in my limited time, I want to thank our police for the good work they are doing under extreme difficulties. Some of their successes in arresting criminals have been superb. They deserve deep appreciation. I want to pay tribute also to the work of the Independent Complaints Directorate. They assist some of our people who do not always get good treatment at some police stations.

The situation on the ground reveals that we need more police, carefully screened and well-trained. They also need better pay and conditions of service conducive to boosting their morale for the difficult work the police are doing, namely looking after the safety and security of our nation. Police salaries must be looked into. Promotions for hardworking police should not take long. Promotions must be seen to be done on a fair basis and on a standard which does not create dissatisfaction among the police.

Police stations must also be allocated enough vehicles. In many police stations there is not only a shortage of vehicles, but of manpower itself. In Bothaville in the Free State, in April when I visited there, they had a shortage of 20 policemen. This station also has the problem of overcrowding. It has inadequate cells. Arrested suspects have to be transported to another town with cells. This makes it possible for suspects to escape, even before appearing in court. The Bothaville station is also far from the township and a nearer satellite station was closed. There is an outcry from the community that it be opened again and upgraded into a fully fledged police station to relieve overcrowding.

Police stations in rural and African townships continue to be treated as inferior to those in former white areas in terms of equipment and maintenance. For instance, the old police station in Soweto where the PAC launched its antipass campaign in 1960 does not look like it has been painted since then or since the ANC came into power. [Interjections.] This practice of treating African areas as inferior must stop. All police stations must be given equal treatment in terms of cleanliness and standard of maintenance.

There are cases of inefficiency. Although this matter is still under investigation, the PAC is not happy that its constituency office was raided by police in July 2002 for weapons, while 10 bombs dropped on Soweto by the Boeremag were not detected. This is a paradox, a conundrum of conundrums. We hope that, ultimately, the PAC will receive a logical explanation why our office was raided.

The PAC is a peaceful and nonviolent organisation. It was the massacre of our people in Sharpeville and Langa in 1960 which provoked the PAC into resorting to the armed struggle. The PAC has no programme of armed struggle, nor of terrorising any community. The PAC is opposed to the political thuggery of such criminal acts as necklacing fellow Africans, murdering of political opponents and burning homes of citizens.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Deputy Speaker, the SAPS is the heart of the department with its responsibilities towards internal security and crime prevention. Further, its functions are stamped by our national Constitution that notes that the SAPS’s objectives are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, maintain public order, uphold and enforce the law and, foremost, to protect and secure our citizenry and their property.

From its objectives, the MF notes the high standard and commitment necessary for the SAPS to ensure delivery. However, many public complaints on the performance of the SAPS have been made. This poor performance has been blamed on minimal resources and, at times, on poor management. Whichever the reason, noting crime infestation in our national state, we have to embark on efforts to ensure proper safety and security.

The MF feels that the Independent Complaints Directorate plays an important role in this. The body was established to investigate complaints of alleged criminality and misconduct against members of the SAPS. The ICD has a number of mandates over a number of matters connected with the SAPS. This allows for a watchful eye in monitoring SAPS matters; it steps up the SAPS’s performance in assuring that safety and security is a priority. While it is disappointing to note an increase of 14,2% in complaints in 2001-02, the decrease of 9,1% in deaths in custody as a result of police action during 2001-02 is a relief.

The justice, crime prevention and security cluster has made a major contribution to the delivery of the SAPS. The SAPS specialised divisions under crime intelligence and crime detectives, operational services and management support services appear to be equipped.

The MF, however, is concerned about the SAPS accessibility. It is felt that police stations have to be set up in areas, especially crime-infested areas, where patrolling has to be encouraged so as to curtail crime. The MF appeals to the Minister to seriously look into setting up satellite police stations within the crime-infested areas and wherever necessary.

It is pleasing to note that communities have joined forces with policing forums to stand up against crime and encourage a safer society. It is the profound duty of all our citizens to assist in whatever way we can in stamping out the crime in our respective communities.

The MF hopes that the department will step up on gang-related violence at schools. Criminal activities of gun-toting and knife-wielding at KZN schools have been recently reported. The MF pleads for the department’s intervention in curtailing gangsterism at schools.

It is hoped that measures may be taken to better the situation of minimal resources that hinders the accessibility and performance of the SAPS. The MF wishes the hon Minister of Safety and Security and his department all the success in his mission in preventing crime in South Africa. The MF supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Deputy Speaker, without the need to specify more specifically, I can state that this side of the House is failing our country when it comes to crime. [Interjections.] We are dealing today with the most basic function of government. If a government fails here, it fails totally.

The National Action is a party with its ear on the ground and, let me assure you, this is the most frequent and the most serious complaint from law-abiding citizens from all ranks of life. It is the most frequently raised reason for negative perceptions and even emigration. This is the first issue that is raised when evaluating our country. Crime, crime, crime. It is a monster spreading its tentacles into every sphere of life.

There is not enough evidence that we are winning the war against crime. The National Action wants to point out just a few indicators. A lack of reliable crime statistics makes it impossible to apply the correct medicine. The Minister of Finance can tell the Minister more about that. You said in this House two weeks ago that statistics do not save lives. The more correct version would be: Withholding statistics saves face for the Minister.

Wat betref plaasmoorde, agb Minister, is dit nie aanvaarbaar dat ons twee jaar moes wag vir die verslag oor die ondersoek na die oorsake van plaasmoorde nie. Twee jaar beteken bykans 300 lewens - dis nie goed genoeg nie. U het vandag gesê die verslag sal aantoon dat die hoofoorsaak van plaasmoorde purely criminal '' is. Die Nasionale Aksie val nie daarvoor nie.Purely criminal’’ en tog word daar in baie gevalle niks gesteel nie, of as gelet word op die absolute barbaarse en gewelddadige wyse waarop hierdie moorde gepleeg word, as moordenaars in ‘n leë plaashuis kan vat wat hulle wil en wag tot die boer van die kerk af terugkom. Die Nasionale Aksie sê onomwonde: Plaasmoorde is georkestreerde terreur en indien dit nie as sodanig aangespreek word nie, gaan ons plase en kleinhoewes die slagvelde bly van die wreedste moorde denkbaar. Kan ek die Minister ook in dié verband vra: Hoeveel van die beloofde addisionele personeel is toe in landelike gebiede ontplooi en hoeveel van die beloofde 30 000 reserviste is reeds gewerf en aangestel?

Nou aansluitend by die kwessie van plaasmoorde is die beoogde uitfasering van die kommandostelsel. Die Nasionale Aksie het met dank kennis geneem van die verklaring van President Mbeki tydens sy imbizo-besoek in Noordwes, dat die stelsel nie uitgefasseer gaan word nie, maar herskik gaan word. Hy het vir ons toegegee en ek haal aan dat die Regering se besluit oor die toekoms van kommandos wat hy 14 Februarie in sy staatsrede aangekondig het, en wat sedertdien vir groot kommer oor landelike veiligheid gesorg het, dalk verkeerd oorgedra is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[As far as farm murders are concerned, hon Minister, it is not acceptable that we had to wait two years for the report on the investigation into the causes of farm murders. Two years equates to nearly 300 lives - that is not good enough. You said today that the report will show that the primary cause of farm murders is purely criminal. The National Action is not falling for that. You say it is purely criminal and yet nothing is stolen in many cases, and there is the absolutely barbaric and violent manner in which these murders are committed, when murderers could take what they want from an empty farmhouse, and wait until the farmer returns from church. The National Action says unequivocally: Farm murders are orchestrated terrorism and if they are not addressed as such our farms and smallholdings will remain the battlefields of the cruelest murders imaginable. Could I also ask the Minister in this regard: How many of the promised additional staff have been deployed in rural areas and how many of the promised 30 000 reservists have already been recruited and appointed?

Closely linked to the issue of farm murders is the envisaged phasing out of the commando system. The National Action noted with appreciation the statement by President Mbeki during his imbizo visit to the North West that the system is not going to be phased out, but rearranged. He conceded to us and I believe that the Government’s decision on the future of commandos which he announced on 14 February in his state of the nation address, and which has since caused great concern about rural safety, was perhaps incorrectly conveyed.]

Hon Minister, the National Action believes in participatory democracy. If the public outcry over a matter leads to a Minister or even the President reviewing the matter for the better, then we do not blame him.

Ons verlekker ons nie en sê hy het ``gat omgeswaai’’ nie. Waarom het ons dan in die eerste instansie gekla? Ons is egter geregtig op duidelikheid en deursigtigheid oor wat hierdie herskikking alles behels. [We do not take pleasure in that and say that he has changed his mind completely. Why did we then complain in the first place? However, we are entitled to clarity and transparency with regard to what this rearrangement entails.]

The Minister spoke with regard to the commandos about the exit of the SADF and the entrance of the SAPS.

Ons doen ‘n beroep op die Minister van Verdediging en die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit om hierdie beoogde herskikking van die kommandos by wyse van ‘n proses van selfregulering te laat geskied. Die Nasionale Aksie versoek as eerste stap die aanstelling van ‘n herskikkingskomitee vanuit die midde van die kommandos self. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[We appeal to the Minister of Defence and the Minister for Safety and Security to have this envisaged rearrangement of the commandos take place by way of a process of self-regulation. The National Action requests as a first step the appointment of a committee for the rearrangement from within the ranks of the commandos themselves.]

Another matter of grave concern, and it is on record that the National Action rejects it, is the action of the so-called Boeremag, which is the fruit of extreme religious fanaticism and not the result of Afrikaner alienation. We repeat our stand today. Let there be no doubt. But, hon Minister, the way in which the Police Service acted in Operation Hopper gives the impression of our police trying to fish with a net and not with a hook. Can the Minister give us an indication of the percentage of people arrested during the early morning hours in Operation Hopper against whom a prima facie case could be built?

Kan ek op ‘n positiewe noot afsluit? Die Nasionale Aksie salueer ons manne en vroue in uniform vir die uitnemende wyse waarop hulle internasionale gebeurtenisse beveilig, by uitstek die Wêreldberaad vir Volhoubare Ontwikkeling in Sandton. Hier moet ek melding maak van die feit dat die Adjunkkommissaris van Polisie, Andre Pruis, hierdie operasie nie vanuit ‘n lugversorgde kantoor en voor rekenaarskerms gemaneuvreer het nie, maar in uniform, tussen sy mense op die grond. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Could I conclude on a positive note? The National Action salutes our men and women in uniform for the outstanding manner in which they safeguard international events, in particular the World Summit on Sustainable Development in Sandton. Here I must mention the fact that the Deputy Commissioner of Police, André Pruis, did not manage this operation from an air-conditioned office and in front of computer screens, but in uniform, among his people on the ground.]

That is where we want to see our honoured bearers of the blue uniform. Bobby on the beat - that is the only answer.

Ms D M MOROBI: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister of Safety and Security and members of Parliament, let me acknowledge the presence of the MECs of Safety and Security who are in this gallery, especially my MEC from Gauteng, hon Nomvula Mkonyane. [Applause.]

Allow me to begin my speech by quoting what the President of South Africa said in his inauguration speech, and I quote:

Those who complete the course will do so only because they do not, as fatigue sets in, convince themselves that the road ahead is still too long, the inclines too steep, the loneliness impossible to bear, and the prize itself of doubtful value.

We too, as the peoples of South Africa and Africa, must together run our Comrades Marathon, as comrades who are ready to take the road together, refusing to be discouraged by the recognition that the road is still very long, the inclines very steep and that, at times, what we see as the end is but a mirage.

When the race is run, all humanity and ourselves will acknowledge the fact that we only succeeded because we succeeded to believe in our own dreams.

It is unfortunate to say that some people simply refuse to join this Comrades Marathon together as South Africans. They would rather convince themselves that the road is too steep and the prize of doubtful value. I am referring to those who see the system of democracy as slowly collapsing and unable to protect our women and children, the most vulnerable of our society. I am referring to hon Gibson and company. [Laughter.]

This Government introduced a philosophy of community policing to make sure that all the police forces that served under the apartheid regime would be integrated and transformed into a professional and effective law- enforcement force which does not infringe on human rights. The approach of community policing has produced a good departmental and intersectoral partnership in the fight against abuse of children and women.

There is an improvement of service to victims of crime, violence and sexual abuse, especially women and children. Due to the interaction of the departments, the Department of Social Development has a programme of victim empowerment, and has also developed an officer training programme to institutionalise all police stations in co-operation with other departments and NGOs who are involved in antirape strategies and child justice initiatives, which is visible policing.

There are national guidelines provided by the national commissioner to be observed by all members of the SAPS. Therefore, this is a practical power by the Government in support of the Department of Safety and Security to fulfil its mandate of interacting with crime preventative and crime- combating programmes. To confirm the approach of interdepartmental and intersectoral co-operation, the Department of Safety and Security is part of the strategic cluster - JPCS. The justice crime prevention and security cluster has initiated programmes to fight the scourge of rape and other violent crimes against children, accompanied by activities of socioeconomic upliftment of survivors and victims.

Through Government policies, department programmes and SA Police Service strategic projects, the ANC-led Government continues to give special focus and high priority to rape, domestic violence, crimes against children and family violence. We need to know that the Sexual Offences Bill, Children’s Bill, Child Justice Bill and Domestic Violence Act of 1998 are all progressive policies that facilitate a commitment to overcome violence against women and children by passing and enforcing these laws that ensure women and children’s legal rights, and severely punish abusers.

The Domestic Violence Act recognises that any domestic violence is a serious social evil and an obstacle to achieving gender equity. One of the cluster’s achievements included the successful 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign from 25 November to 10 December 2002.

Another awareness campaign against child abuse ran from 26 May to 7 June

1. This campaign urged all of us to protect children from conditions of vulnerability including poverty, HIV/Aids and social ills. The campaigns are done to promote children’s rights towards social responsibility as well as easy access to Government services which demands of us not to forget that your child is my child, and my child is your child.

The ANC-led Government knows that any sound and lasting public education starts with interaction such as awareness campaigns. We ensure that we focus on empowering women and children, reaching out to parents and changing the beliefs and attitudes that permit abusive behaviour.

Another success is the training of more than 2 000 officials, including magistrates and prosecutors, on the Domestic Violence Act. The Minister of Safety and Security also indicated that a comprehensive manual for training of all key service providers has been developed. Also, more courts have been dedicated for prosecution of sexual offences recently, such as a court that has been opened in Sibasa, Limpopo Province.

Crimes cannot be dealt with by the police alone. Communities must also play a meaningful role by putting in place preventative strategies, establishing sustainable and effective crisis centres to aid service delivery. There is a need for a holistic approach in order to achieve sustainable safety for all our children. But, unless all stakeholders work together against family violence and abuse of children, we will continue to experience gruesome violation of the rights of women and children.

The 2003 budget increase provides for the enhancement of the functions of the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units that have been prioritised. It is envisaged that some units which deal with child protection and sexual offences will retain their autonomy so that they can deal with crimes that require specialised skills.

During the period of six months in the year 2002-03, criminal organisations and individuals were identified through an organised threat analysis process. In that, 3 045 cases were forwarded to courts. The Family Violence Unit together with the Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units investigated 18 737 cases, of which 14 706 are registered dockets with the department, and 4 031 enquiries were reported during the same six months.

People who claim to be experts on child abuse react to the inevitable challenges that naturally come with the democratic transformation without having the decency or respect to first go to check a list of incidents that preceded the change of the fate of our children. I would like to refresh the memories of these sceptical champions that the ANC-led Government is progressively turning the tide against the abuse of women and children. The ANC’s policy has always been: Crime against women and children is a priority in the criminal justice system, especially on the part of the investigating and prosecution authority.

However, as hon President Thabo Mbeki has pointed out in the ANC Today column:

The greatest challenge we are facing is to keep children away from harm and abuse and to empower our women and children to identify and report any violation of their rights.

Although our commitment is proven by strategies and programmes that are already in place, we still have to go the extra mile. South Africa is one of the countries that have ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of Children. Therefore, the ANC-led Government, by obligation, will continue to put children’s rights high on its agenda. We already have some policies in place. This Government will continue to provide protection to all South African children from torture, cruelty, inhumanity and degrading treatment. The ANC supports the budget. I thank you. [Applause]

Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, Charles de Montesquieu said in 1748, and I quote:

Political liberty in a citizen is that tranquillity of spirit which comes from the opinion each one has of his security, and in order for him to have this liberty the government must be such that one citizen cannot fear another citizen.

But across our country, from Kleinvlei to Westbury, the people are shouting, ``Enough is enough, free us from the fear of the criminals!’’ Often, the only responses from Government members, most of whom operate under the illusion that they personally own this land and its people, are scathing attacks on us - the messengers of those unfortunate victims of crime out there, and there are millions of them. Very applicable, today, is the title of the DA’s policy programme for positive change on crime, Freedom from Fear: Making the criminal justice system work. That policy programme is available on our website: www.da.org.za.

Last year the ICD briefed the portfolio committee about their progress and fulfilment of their mandate with the available budgetary allocation - which resulted in our support for that Vote. This year, after a similar briefing, we wish to compliment them on their very important and hard work. Once again, we support that Vote. Over this financial year we shall, however, monitor their progress closely.

The SAPS is just phasing out the anticorruption units - a decision we disagree with and already the ICD’s workload is increasing regarding complaints against those corrupt officers who still remain within the SAPS. Whilst it was not the intention of these closures to result in the ICD dealing with such complaints, it is an unfortunate result or maybe not that unfortunate - only time will tell.

Hon Minister, let me turn to safety and security, in particular rural safety. On 17 February, at the GCIS media briefings, three days after the President’s announcement, you told the media that the commandos would be replaced with a special dedicated division within the SAPS. I thought that, at last, we were moving forward in addressing the fears of our rural communities: those who live and work on our farms and smallholdings, and those in rural settlements with limited or no public transport and often no telephones, and who have to walk many kilometres to get to sparsely spread police stations.

How big was the disappointment when, days later, you renounced that and told me that normal sector policing would replace the commandos. Why? Because such a dedicated division is exactly what you will find in section 2.19 of our policy document. We believe that to be the only viable option if you are adamant that you want to replace the commandos. Then, we need not lose the expertise, movability and commitment of those who, for so long, have been in the frontline of defence for our rural people with the advantage of, at last, being properly resourced.

Want die waarheid is dat die landelike beveiligingsplan aan skerwe lê saam met die lyke van soveel vermoordes en lewens van soveel verkragtes en beroofdes. Terwyl die Regering toegelaat het dat die SAPD leegbloei van mannekrag en hulpmiddele, is die landelike gebiede die swaarste getref. Terwyl al hoe swaarder op die kommandos gesteun is, is hulle gemarginaliseer deur ‘n groeiende gebrek aan geld vanuit die verdedigingsbegroting. En nou, terwyl die kommandos uitgefaseer word, is die enigste plan om die leemte te vul, volgens die agb Minister, sektorpolisiëring.

Die probleem is egter dat die nuwe polisiebeamptes wat in diens geneem word, almal geoormerk is vir sektorpolisiëring by die sogenaamde ``crack down’‘-stasies, waarvan slegs enkeles in die landelike gebiede val. Daar is net een oplossing en die agb Minister het dit amper raakgevat: ‘n Spesiale landelike beveiligingsdivisie binne die polisiediens, direk onder die nasionale kommissaris met toerekeningsvatbaarheid by die Minister self. Hiermee en alleen hiermee sal ons ook voldoende toegewyde landelike reserviste kry om so ‘n divisie by te staan. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Because the truth of the matter is that the rural security plan is torn to shreds, together with the corpses of so many people who have been murdered and the lives of so many who have been raped and robbed. When the Government allowed the SAPS to be bled dry of manpower and resources, the rural areas were the most seriously affected. While the commandos were being relied upon to an increasing extent, the rural areas were being marginalised because of an increasing lack of money from the Defence budget. And now, while the commandos are being phased out, the only way of filling the gap, according to the hon Minister, is sector policing.

However, the problem is that the new police officers who are employed have all been earmarked for sector policing at the so-called ``crack down’’ stations, only a few of which fall in the rural areas. There is only one solution and the hon Minister nearly grasped it: A special rural security division within the Police Service, directly under the national commissioner and with accountability to the Minister himself. By means of this and this only we will also get sufficient dedicated rural reservists to unite forces with such a division.]

Allow me to make some remarks on the CPUs. We spent a lot of time in this House debating the plight of our children, those most vulnerable in society and those on whom the future of our nation depends. Minister, if we are concerned about them, the very least we should do is to ensure, first of all, that those special units will be, at all times, fully staffed, resourced and maintained before we even start to look at other needs in the department.

My dank en waardering gaan vandag aan die toegewyde lede van die polisiediens, van senior bestuur af tot by die nuuste konstabel, wat onder uiters moeilike omstandighede poog om hierdie ‘n veiliger land te maak. Ook aan daardie lede wie se persoonlike lewens deur Resolusie 7 ontwrig is in belang van die groter taak van die departement. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[My thanks and appreciation today go to the dedicated members of the Police Service, from senior management down to the most newly appointed constable, who endeavour under very difficult circumstances to make this a safer country. Also to those members whose personal lives have been disrupted by Resolution 7 in the interests of the greater task of the department.]

Hon Minister, I trust that the remaining 600 disputes, mostly in the Eastern Cape, will be satisfactorily resolved. Only then can we close the door on what has been a disastrous internal communication fiasco which caused so much damage to the morale of our dedicated police officers. Whilst I can and did find the process greatly flawed and damaging, the result of only 1,8% of the workforce which is to be relocated is, although not in individual cases, but generally, reasonably accepted. I do however trust that, Minister, you will take appropriate action against those senior officers who attempted to misuse the process to settle grudges and, in this and other ways, deviated from the guidelines.

Hon Minister, I want to believe that you, in your quiet way, want to be as much a cowboy against crime as your predecessor, the late sheriff Steve. But, until Treasury is willing to be deputised and join the posse, the crooks will win the fight or at best we may achieve a standoff which is what you so eloquently called the stabilisation of crime. Now, how then can we ever tell those crying mothers and children out there that we endorse the Government’s reluctance to take a bold and committed step to show real commitment to free them from the pain and fear of crime by supporting this budget? What is not much more than a year-on-year inflation increase in this budget will not sufficiently equip us to break the shackles that crime binds this country with. Let’s provide our people with real political liberty, a time when no citizen needs to fear another citizen. [Applause.]

Nksz M XULU: Mhlonishwa Phini likaSomlomo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, bahlonishwa abakule Ndlu, ngizothi ukungena esihlokweni lapha kule nkulumo yomnyango wezokuphepha ngohambo esiluhambile siyikomidi labesifazane le- Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women. NgoMeyi mhla ka-6 kuya ku-9 sihambele izindawo ezintathu esifundazweni saseGauteng, eyokuqala kwaba yiJohannesburg, kwalandela iPitoli neVereeneging.

Ngithi mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe angibonge emaphoyiseni akho ngoba izithunywa ezazithunyelwe zakhombisa ukusesekela nokusihlonipha singabesifazane. [Ihlombe.] Ngendlela ababefike ngayo nangendlela ababezimisele ngayo ekwethuleni izinkulumo zabo kwakukuhle kuzo zontathu lezo zindawo. Nakhu-ke okukhona esabona nathi ukuthi asikhulume ngakho ngoba izikhalo zabo ziyefana noma izindawo zingefani. Okokuqala, laphaya eJohannesburg bakhala ngokuthi ubugebengu buningi. Umnyango wawuholwa umqondisi uJohnson oyinhloko yabaseshi yena owathi amacala abanawo maningi kakhulu kodwa banabasebenzi abancane. Abasebenzi bangu-55 bese kuthi umuntu emunye athwale amacala angu-39. Amasha ngenyanga avama ukuba u-16 bese lokho kwenza umthwalo-ke ube nzima kubona ngoba umuntu ngokomthetho ngabe uthwala angu-20. Ngoba isikhathi sincane, bakhala ngezikhungo zokwelekelelela - okunye okwakuthinta eminye iminyango efana nezenhlalakahle.

NasePitoli nakhona kunjalo kodwa-ke ezakhona zincane izinkinga ngoba bayakwazi nokuthola abaxhasi futhi banayo imali asebeyenzile ngokwenza imikhankaso yokuqoqa imali. Kodwa isikhalo sisezindaweni zabantu. Ngigxila lapha-ke mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe ekuthini noma izinto zethu ziye zithathwe ngepolitiki mina ngikhala ngokuthi sengathi singayibheka ipolitiki le enigxobana ngayo kodwa bese sibuya siyobheka izindawo zethu emakhaya lapho abantu besifazane behlupheka khona, lapho kusekhona izindawo njengakithi nakwezinye izindawo ezifundazweni, lapho abantu behamba khona amakhilomitha angaphezu kuka-60 kuyiwa esiteshini samaphoyisa esisodwa.

Sengathi-ke kulesi sabelo okukhulunywa ngaso zingabhekelwa lezo zinto ngoba abantu besifazane babhekana naleso simo imihla ngemihla, ikakhulukazi ngezimpelasonto obaba uma bedle ukudla kwabo bese beshaya, umuntu wesifazane angazi ukuthi uzosizakala kanjani. Izigebengu zibadlwengule abantu besifazane bengazi nokuthi bazobika bese efika nini amaphoyisa ngoba izindawo zikude. Ngithi, kulesi sabelo sengathi kungabhekelwa izindawo zasemakhaya nasezindaweni zabantu, imali ithi xaxa ukuze kubhekelwe ukuthi izinsizakalo zibe khona.

Sizwile ukuthi kukhona uchatha emaphoyiseni. Nami ngithe mangithinta ngakithi KwaZulu ngezwa ukuthi, cha, bandla bayathokoza, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe. Ingathi-ke kungathi uma kubhekwa bese kubhekwa izindaba zezinto zokusebenza. Laphaya eMlazi kufike umama nezingane eshaywe ubaba. Ngishayele esiteshini samaphoyisa ngezwa ukuthi eshantshi hhovisi imoto iyodwa ngakho ayikwazi ukusiza umuntu ngaleso sikhathi. Nakulokho sithi siyazi ukuthi kulukhuni ukuthi imali ibe khona masinyane kodwa sithi ingathi kungabhekelwa ukuthi izindawo lezi zethu, kobantu, ezazivele zihluphekile kwasekuqaleni zinganakiwe, kubhekelwe zona phela kuthi lezi ezaziveli zinotho nazo-ke bese zibhekelwa. Kudinga kubhekwe ukuthi siseThekwini nje lapha ko-C R Swart izimoto zazivele ziyinqwaba kodwa laphaya kithi, emalokishini, kungekho lutho. Ake kuqalwe ngathi bese kugcinwa ngalezi ezinye. [Ihlombe.] Ngiyathokoza. Ngiyaseseka isabelo sakho mhlonihlwa Ngqongqoshe. (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Miss M XULU: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister and hon members in this House, under the subject being debated today on the Department of Safety and Security, I will discuss the journey we made as a committee of women, the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women. On 6-9 May we visited three places in the Gauteng province, starting with Johannesburg, followed by Pretoria and then Vereeniging.

Hon Minister, I would like to express my gratitude to your police staff. The delegates who were there showed support and respect to us as women. [Applause.] Their good attendance and the determination with which they delivered their speeches was impressive in all three places.

However, there are some issues that we realised we needed to raise here because the complaints were similar despite differences in location. Firstly, Johannesburg complained about the high rate of crime. The departmental delegation was led by Director Johnson, who is in charge of the detectives. He informed us that they have too many cases and yet they are understaffed. Their staff complement is 55, and each person is responsible for 39 cases. New cases number about 16 per month, and this increases the workload. Under normal conditions one person should be in charge of 20 cases. They also complained about support centres - which involved other departments such as the Department of Welfare.

The situation in Pretoria is quite similar but their problems are fewer since they are able to get sponsors and they have also accumulated some money through their fund-raising projects. However, the complaints they have emanate from the black areas.

What I want to focus on is this issue, hon Minister. Since issues tend to be politicised, my request is that while we do need to pay attention to politics over which politicians keep fighting, we must focus seriously on rural areas where women are suffering. In places such as the one where I come from, and others in the provinces, people walk more than 60 km to a single police station.

It would be a good thing if the budget being discussed today could provide such resources because women are faced with these conditions on a daily basis. The situation is worse on weekends when some men tend to drink too much and become violent. Faced with such a situation, the woman does not know where to get help. Some women fall victim to rapists and, because of long distances to police stations, they have no idea how long it will take for the police to arrive after they have reported the rape. I request that this budget make provision for rural areas and other places where black people live. The budget also needs to be increased so as to make resources available.

We have heard that police salaries have been raised. In my interactions with people from KwaZulu-Natal, where I come from, I learned that the police are happy about it, hon Minister. The next step now is to ensure the provision of resources.

One day at Umlazi a woman came to me with her children after having been assaulted by her husband. I called the police station and was told that there was only one vehicle at the charge office, so there was no way of helping her at that time. As far as situations like this are concerned, we understand that it is not easy to secure funds immediately. However, our appeal is that the rural areas, which have previously been disadvantaged and neglected, be given priority over places which have enjoyed better resources.

It has to be taken into consideration that places such as C R Swart in Durban have always had an abundant supply of vehicles while the townships were not provided for. This time our needs should be given priority over those of other people. [Applause.]

I support your budget, hon Minister.]

Mr M S BOOI: Madam Deputy Speaker, let me thank you. Minister, the ANC endorses the budget. [Interjections.] No, Gibson, I will be with you very soon. We also want to express our thanks for the good work that is being done by our MECs in different provinces, which is a very good development. They have shown that they are able to grapple with issues that confront them.

Now, Gibson said it is very crucial that … [Interjections.] Sorry, the hon Gibson. He said that it is very important that the Minister walks about. I would just like to be able to allay his fears.

This past weekend one of our MECs, who is a person in whose work I have a lot of confidence, was able to mobilise, in a short span of time, and fill a stadium with people in order to be able to bury one of the best cadres we had in this movement. We are talking about Ephraim Mogale and that attachment does not just go easily because Ephraim Mogale was one of our first presidents in Cosas and the work that you did, MEC Thabang Makwetla, was something that we are very grateful to you for. As a generation of people and young people that have come across and have worked with Ephraim, when we saw the number of people who were at the stadium, it clearly showed that you had done your work. We are also very thankful to MEC Nomvula for being able to chair and give leadership right through that process. [Applause.] We are very thankful for the work that you have done there.

Now Minister, you know, this is always good for us. I have been here for 10 years and I have been able to reflect on matters. I have worked on safety and security issues. It is not the first time now that we are going to debate with the DA. It has continuously changed its character. It just continuously changes with whomever it goes into an alliance with. But the only thing that is very crucial whenever we engage in debate in the House is that, at least, there should be some truth. People should be honest about what they have written out.

You know, Swart, I did not have to go to www.da and what-not. I have the document. I am going to reflect on the document that you have presented and to us it’s very crucial, because this is what Gibson has missed out in the process. [Interjections.] Gibson has not been able to talk about their own document, what they have been able to write up and to present to the electorate, because what they are looking for is votes. They are not looking at how to resolve the issues that are confronting us during a period of crime. [Applause.]

Now Gibson, in the document, the executive summary says mismanagement and a lack of political will have left the SAPS in disarray. Now, the way he was pleading here and trying to appease and talk about the policemen is a total contradiction of what is in the document. Now it surprises me how he appeals to policemen in the way he was appealing here earlier, while in the document he shows such a lot of disrespect for the way they do their work. He shows no care. He does not. He does not care, because if ever he knew exactly what is happening within the service, if he ever knew the type of work these policemen are doing, he would have been able to acknowledge his responsibility. Now it is very unfair and the way he is conducting himself is just not correct. He is a seasoned politician. He is supposed to continuously know that the battle lines between the ANC and the DA are drawn on the basis of policy and not on attacking the Deputy President and going haywire where we cannot even pick up what policies are being attacked. To us that is a serious problem because then it shows the bankruptcy that is within the party itself, because leaders are supposed to be leading, and to give policy and guidance to our people. [Applause.]

So to me, to us as the ANC, if that lack of leadership is going to continue permeating right through the manner in which we conduct ourselves, it is going to come back and it is going to haunt the DA in the way it conducts itself. [Interjections.]

You know, the other problem that I really sometimes get so shocked about is when you steal ideas. Now, in the document, they say The DA is committed to winning the war against crime with a well-trained, well-equipped, nonpartisan and community-based police service''. Tell me what is different from what we have been saying all the time here. You should not steal. You should at least acknowledge that the ANC has offered leadership on this particular issue. We are the ones who have been able to say that we should go to the communities. We have been the ones that have been working on community police forums. What is new that the DA is bringing to the table? That is what we are looking for. [Applause.] You want to be able to say to them,We are bringing something new, and we are willing to challenge you.’’

We have been ready. That is why I am saying, Gibson, that you have really misled South Africans at this particular moment. You are looking for people who have misled others. It is you who has done that. Let us go back again to what Gibson has not told the public here, to what Gibson has not told the police that are seated here. [Interjections.] Honourable, OK.

``The concentration of resources in an overbureaucratised central headquarters … Now this is in the document that Gibson has. He sits here and praises the policies, but he criticises them in the document that he has sent out to the public. Now that is dishonesty to us. It gives us a particular problem, because how can you say that the police are overbureaucratized and they are all concentrated at head office and that all the resources are at head office? That is not being very genuine to the police. They are saying that the police are not doing any good work. They are saying that the police do not understand. The police that we work with at Safety and Security have produced. This is their programme. They continuously reflect on the work that they are doing. Here is it. They gave it. We even took it to Gibson so that he understands the work we do.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Gibson. [Applause.]

Mr M S BOOI: Hon Gibson. But let us go ahead. Gibson calls on section 49. He calls them … [Interjections.] Hon Gibson calls on the Minister. He says he has written a letter to the chairperson, and the chairperson is supposed to make sure that he goes and participates. It was very pathetic, very pathetic that you realise that the leader of a particular party that is supposed to be in the opposition did not understand the issue. He sits there and the Minister said: ``Okay, I am here, I am going to talk about section 49. What are you accusing the national commissioner about?’’ Now, Gibson has read the newspaper; he has not read section 49. [Applause.]

Now we sit there. We are elaborating, because these things are very crucial because that reflects the nature of the opposition that we are confronted with. He sits there. After the Minister spoke, the chairperson said: ``Gibson, speak’’, and Gibson went haywire. He is very apologetic. [Laughter.] Oh, Minister, I accept what the commissioner is doing; it is a very good job. He goes on as if he is the praise singer of the national commissioner in a situation where he wanted to challenge the national commissioner and wanted the Minister to call the commissioner to account.

Now tell us if he is a strong leader, because Gibson has not been in the safety and security committee for … [Interjections.] Honourable Gibson, okay, okay, okay, fine. Hon Gibson has not been in that particular committee for more than two to three years. Now, come elections, he sits there. We expect him to argue the issue and then after five minutes, the chairperson, Maziya, our hon Maziya, starts to object: ``Can’t we just proceed because Gibson does not understand the issues and has really just proven that he does not understand what the police are involved in here.’’ And we are very sympathetic. We continuously say in the ANC and I want to say it in Afrikaans. [Interjections.] That all …

Wat ons eintlik wil sê is dat die polisiemanne wat jy altyd so sit en … I mean … [Gelag.] Hulle het ook kinders. Hulle het ook vroue. Hulle maak seker dat die skelms, verkragters, diewe en gangsters moet tronk toe gaan. Dit is die polisiemanne wat dit altyd doen. Hulle wil ook seker maak dat die kinders kan skool toe gaan en dat hul vrouens ook na Pick ‘n Pay toe kan gaan … [Tussenwerpsels] … net soos ander lede van die gemeenskap. Dan wil hulle ook seker maak dat hulle die vrugte van ons demokratiese proses kan proe. Dit is dus baie, baie belangrik wat ons altyd hier voor sê en die dinge waaroor ander partye altyd begin praat. Hulle moet seker maak hulle kom vertel nie leuens in die Parlement nie. Ons vra dus net wat aangaan. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[What we actually want to say is that the policemen who you always seem to sit and … I mean … [Laughter.] They also have children. They also have wives. They make sure that the villains, rapists, thieves and gangsters go to jail. It is at all times the policemen who do it. They also want to ensure that the children can go to school and that their wives can also go to Pick ‘n Pay … [Interjections] … just like other members of the community. Furthermore they also want to ensure that they can taste the fruit of our democratic process. Therefore the things we say here in front, as well as the things other parties always start talking about, are always very, very important. They should ensure that they do not come and tell lies in Parliament. Therefore we are just asking what is going on.]

The other issue that we think is very crucial is the policing issue. [Interjections.] That is the other issue that we think is very crucial. You know that hon Gibson sits here and goes haywire and on and on about the issue of 150 000 police. I thought that he would be able to explain where he is getting that figure of 150 000 from. He does not understand policing. We do not know if it refers to visible policing or if they wear uniforms, or walk around. We do not know if it is detectives that he is looking for. We do not know if he is looking for community police forums. He just looks for 150 000 police. [Interjections.]

Now to me as a person who is concerned about policing, that is a very crucial development. If you want 150 000, tell us where you want them, and who are they? Is it just a simple figure? I mean, you do not understand. If you say you want 150 000 policemen, we will recruit them, but then where will we put them? Now we are saying that Gibson does not understand this thing. He puts numbers without being able to say what we should do with that number of policemen. He is not able to say; he is not able to understand how you run a police station. I shall help you, Gibson, because this thing is very crucial, because as you go about talking, you must be able to attach some responsibility to policemen. Policemen do their own administration. Policemen do guarding. Policemen do visible patrols. Policemen do investigation and other forms of field contact. Policemen do public administration and responding to calls of assistance and policemen do incident-related paperwork. So I do not understand what the 150 000 was for. I was struggling as I sat there. What does Gibson want us to do with the 150 000?

I work in Crossroads; he does not work there. I interact with the community. I do not understand why you need the 150 000, if it is even necessary. What Gibson does not say to the people here, and what he does not say to the Parliament is that he says in his document ``it’s just getting rid of dead wood’’. [Interjections.]

How can he insult people just like that? It is in the document. He says, ``getting rid of dead wood’’. [Interjections.] He spread that type of document. He wants us to be able to do that. I mean, it is so criminal to 25% of SAPS members who are functionally illiterate. A similar percentage do not have drivers’ licences and many are unsuited for the positions they occupy. That is in this document of the DA.

Now the part Gibson was afraid to express is in here. What we are saying is: Is it correct to insult people in that particular way? [Interjections.]

This is what the DA also does. If they want to combat crime, I always say let us have good policies and be able to present ourselves. Let us not go and insult people. Who are the dead wood in the police? If you say, ``kitskonstabels’’ [special constables], those are people that do … [Interjections.] Which work are you talking about? So it is important, Gibson, in all the things that you say and whatever standards you want us to be able to achieve and in the professional work you want us to follow up on in the performance of our police so that they are able to attach some responsibility to what they are raising so that we do not sit here and say we are listening to a member who is going to do us harm, and show and give us an analysis of the situation, and he ends up not understanding what he is talking about. That is just definitive … I mean, our police … You see … [Interjections.]

The continuously unscientific approach in this particular document is a worrying aspect. If this is what they are going to be challenged about, I am definitively sure that we going to come back with a bigger majority. Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, when hon Annelizé van Wyk was addressing us, I was thinking about Hamlet and, in Shakespeare’s play, at the graveyard, Hamlet has the skull in his hand, and I thought of poor Paul Swart … [Laughter.] He was a good man. This is precisely what the DA has done. They shoved the hon Paul Swart aside, and replaced him with the hon Douglas Gibson, because they wanted someone who has a shrill voice, who will go and address people about ghosts. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] What they have been doing is the following: They have produced a document, and they say this document is an alternative to what we are doing. At best, we ought to be arresting them for plagiarism. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Because this is what it is. This document is exactly our document. We presented this document about the strategies of the SAPS to Parliament just the other day. [Interjections.] But there are certain things I want to bring to your attention from what they say in the document.

One of the things is: Allowing tax relief of up to R5 000 or 5%, whichever is the greater, on private security-related expenses. [Interjections.] What he is saying is that the people in the township he wants me to accompany him to, who will not be able to afford to have barricades, who will not be able to afford to pay for this service, should continue to suffer. He does not care about them. [Interjections.] Those he cares about are the rich, because this tax relates to them. They can pay for those barricades. [Applause.] It is the rich, and therefore the rich must be protected. There must be more security from private security companies to protect the rich. [Interjections.] He is not talking about black people.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Black people pay tax.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Incidentally, hon Gibson, I accept your challenge. Let’s go to Botshabelo on an evening. Let’s go and visit with Botshabelo, the two of us, without security. Let’s go there. [Interjections.] I am going to write you a letter to confirm what I am saying, but that visit must happen before the end of July. Let’s go at night to Botshabelo in Bloemfontein. [Applause.] He forgets that I was born in a township. He forgets that my entire life growing up was spent in a township. When did he go to our townships? It was after we had liberated him. [Applause.] That’s when he started going to our townships. [Applause.] He believes, therefore, that he knows these townships better than I do. But, hon Gibson, Botshabelo, before the end of July. [Interjections.]

What his party does is that, all the time, they are attacking the police. And they say they are attacking us. I am not a police official. I don’t do policing. The ANC does not do policing. We do policy. The person who does policing is André Pruis. He is the Head of Operations. Everything they have said is an attack on André Pruis. They say he is unable to plan operations, unable to do his work, and he is including all those who work under André Pruis.

I was with some of them on the Cape Flats this Friday, and I have been with them on a number of other raids. We mounted a raid, which is a regular practice. He says all of those people are not doing any work. They don’t know what they are doing. This is what he is saying. But, he pretends to be attacking the ANC.

Let’s look at some of the things that they say in this document. He says:

The South African public have a right to certain minimum standards of service, and failure to provide this service should have consequences.

I want to ask the hon Minister for the Public Service and Administration to please hand over our policy document on Batho Pele to this hon member to read. He does not know there is something called that. That is why they are speaking in this fashion:

Accountability should be local, assumed by officials at a local level who are empowered to structure their operations as they see fit to ensure maximum performance.

This is already happening. They should go and read the SAPS Act. It stipulates that provincial commissioners are responsible for combating and investigating crime within their respective provinces. This responsibility is further delegated to area and station commissioners, and is included within their performance agreement. It is there, and it has been there since 1996. [Interjections.] He is unable to read it, because he and his party do not understand policing matters. He says:

Performance indicators should be simple, quantifiable, rational, and publicly declared, with incentives given for Stellar performance and termination an accepted consequence for dismal failure.

The salary increases for the SAPS senior management structure, from the national commissioner downwards, demand that they sign a performance agreement, stipulating acceptable performance and productivity.

I can go through this document; everything they say is exactly what we are doing. They are trying to present it as something new. I said the other day here that they think it is profound, it is an alternative. [Laughter.] There is nothing profound in this thing. It is our policy. There is nothing new they have said in terms of this document, but let’s look at other things that they are saying.

An HON MEMBER: Don’t cry.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: He is going to cry just now. [Laughter.] We will continue by saying: You people are racist in the way that you raise some of the problems we have. [Interjections.] It is racist in the first instance to want … You know one of the things they said … The Minister of Minerals and Energy, in negotiations with Telkom, decided that they were going to write off the debt that our people in Soweto had worked up regarding the provision of electricity.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You are talking about Eskom.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: And they are opposing that matter. [Interjections.] We want it, as the police, so that our areas can be lit up, as part and parcel of crime combating. We want this to happen. [Applause.] [Interjections.] Secondly, when all is said and done, these people are saying that a government that is led by a black-dominated organisation cannot succeed in combating crime. [Interjections.] We will continue to say this, because this is how it is coming across to our people. Our people are asking about it. [Interjections.]

Someone passed me this note:

A visitor to South Africa, listening to the hon Gibson, would have visions of a massive criminal orgy in the length and breadth of the country, where bodies of the dead and injured litter the streets. This is precisely the impression the DA wants to portray of our democratic Government.

That is precisely the point. This is what they want to portray our Government as being, because they are unhappy about our democratic dispensation. He has spoken here about murder statistics, and he has quoted the Medical Research Council. Yet, the Medical Research Council, in their own document, says the figures can’t be used to determine national figures, because they only monitor a few mortuaries, approximately 20 mortuaries. Depending on which mortuaries are monitored, one can come to totally wrong conclusions. This is what they themselves say.

He’s talked about figures from Home Affairs. Those figures from Home Affairs include natural deaths. How do you connect natural deaths to murders? [Laughter.] He says people who have lost their loved ones will remember this Government and hold it to account, but our people are not only going to remember these figures; to them, these figures are part and parcel of what is happening in South Africa and elsewhere in the world.

If there were no murders anywhere else in the world, maybe this would have been a profound statement they were making, but he forgets that there are other murders our people will always remember. [Interjections.] There were the times that the SA Defence Force mounted cross-border raids and killed our people. In December 1985 in Lesotho I buried people, including Lesotho nationals, who were mowed down by members of the SA Defence Force. There are people who sit here, including the honÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Interjections] … you know who. They sat here, and they supported the cross-border raids by the SA Defence Force. [Applause.] [Interjections.] Our people will always remember that.

There was a statement made today about the reburial of the remains of some of our people who were killed in that fashion. Those deaths were supported by these people here. [Interjections.]

Hon Mr Groenewald, you have told this House that you asked me this question, which you’ve given me a copy of, about the report, and I said no. In this report, you have underlined some words which I am going to read:

Advocate Du Plessis confirmed that the first part of their report, which deals with the causes and motives behind these attacks, has been finalised.

You ought to have read the following one as well:

The committee is currently addressing the prevention and curbing of farm attacks.

Die verslag, Meneer, is in twee dele. Die eerste deel … [The report, Sir, comprises two parts. The first part … ]

… is what is referred to here as the causes and motives behind these attacks.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: I know that.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes. He said we have completed that. Now, the second one is that we are now working on the second part. Both the first part and the second part have not been submitted yet. Please, Sir. This is what I said. I said it this year.

Daar is ‘n eerste deel en ‘n tweede deel. Die verslag, al twee dele, is nog nie beskikbaar nie, Meneer. [Tussenwerpsels.] [There is a first part and a second part. The report, both parts, is not available yet, Sir. [Interjections.]] You also raised the matter of Operation Hopper which forms part of our broader operation to combat right-wing extremism. It was based on intelligence obtained during our investigations into the Boeremag. During the various ``hoppers’’, therefore, we have done the following: We have arrested between 15 and 20 people; we have seized illegal firearms, explosives, components which can be used to manufacture explosive devices and maps indicating possible targets, in other words names, addresses and so on of the targets.

The service realises that the achievement of the strategic priorities has been, and will continue to be realised, through its workforce. The challenge, therefore, is to have a dedicated, motivated and suitably trained and equipped workforce to ensure an equitable supply of human resources to meet the ideal workforce profile. A multiyear human resource plan has been developed.

In addition, career centres will be launched in three provinces to equip employees for possible career pathing and planning opportunities within the service to promote the principles of job satisfaction and get the right person with the right skills for the right job. The human rights plan will provide for a focused profile of personnel losses, and provide guidance as to the quantity of workforce movement and recruitment required to realise and sustain an 85% operation workforce. In compliance with this, the station staff establishment will be increased from 63% to 67%.

The total SAPS workforce will also be increased this year from 131 560 to 140 560. This will provide a thrust to improve employment equity in the service. The improvement of employment equity in every sphere of employment of the SAPS is being monitored and evaluated to ensure reasonable progress in achieving the necessary targets.

At senior management level, the representivity improved from a composition of 47% blacks in 2000, to 55% in 2003. During this time, the composition of blacks in middle management rose from 36% in 2000, to 42% this year. At junior management level, the service comprised 74% black members in 2000, and this rose to 78% this year. Of significance is the overall composition of females in the service. We stand at a world record: 26% of our complement are women. [Applause.]

In last year’s budget speech, I promised to request Cabinet to allow me to appoint two deputy national commissioners as part of our transformation exercise. Two senior black officers have been appointed: one is a woman who is today the acting National Commissioner, Deputy National Commissioner Mala Singh. She is acting in the absence of the national Commissioner. [Applause.]

I want to thank all of you who have been providing an excellent service to all of our people. Do your work and simply close your ears to people who talk about things they don’t know anything about. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 17:47. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:
     (i)     National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 29 -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec 76) [Bill and prior notice of
          its introduction published in Government Gazette No 25052 of 3
          June 2003.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
     Environmental Affairs and Tourism of the National Assembly, as
     well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 11 June 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bills may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159:

 (1)    The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism on 29 May 2003
     submitted the following Bills:


    (i)      National Environmental Management Amendment Bill, 2003
    (ii)     National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Bill, 2003
    (iii)    National Environmental Management: Protected  Areas  Bill,
           2003


     Referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Environmental  Affairs  and
     Tourism  and  the  Select  Committee  on  Land  and   Environmental
     Affairs.

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 10 June 2003:


     (i)     Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B  2B  -  2003]  (National
          Assembly - sec 75).

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 On 30 May 2003 the National Assembly adopted the Report of the Joint
 Committee on Ethics and Members' Interests concerning a complaint
 against Minister M G P Lekota. The House thereby imposed on the
 Minister the sanctions as recommended by the Joint Committee. The
 sanctions have been implemented by way of the following written
 communication to the Minister:


     30 May 2003


     Dear Minister Lekota


     BREACH OF PARLIAMENT'S CODE OF CONDUCT


     The National Assembly on 30 May unanimously adopted the  Report  of
     the Joint  Committee  on  Ethics  and  Members'  Interests  on  the
     complaint against yourself. Your presence in the House at the  time
     is appreciated.


     The Joint Committee found that you were  negligent  in  failing  to
     comply with the provisions of the Code  of  Conduct  in  that  your
     disclosure of your  financial  interests  was  incomplete.  It  was
     noted, however, that there  was  no  evidence  that  you  willfully
     withheld information with the intention to mislead Parliament.
     In accordance with the sanctions approved by the House on the
     recommendation of the Joint Committee, a fine of one week's (7
     days) salary is levied. The fine should be paid without delay to
     the Secretary to Parliament.


     I am further instructed to issue a written reprimand to you.


     I note that you took the initiative of writing to me as Speaker
     tendering your apology to Parliament for failing to disclose your
     interests in full. You have subsequently co-operated fully with
     the Joint Committee.


     Nevertheless, your casualness - by your own admission - in regard
     to disclosure of your interests over an extended period of 1999 to
     2003 is both disappointing and regrettable. The Code has been
     voluntarily imposed by members on themselves and flows from our
     commitment to constitutional principles and accountability to the
     electorate. We will only consolidate our democracy to the extent
     that we are able to earn respect as public representatives. When a
     member in a leadership position such as yourself fails to observe
     the letter and spirit of the Code, it represents a setback in our
     efforts to build and maintain public trust in democratic
     institutions.


     The manner in which you conducted yourself subsequent to the
     matter coming to light is to be commended and sets an example.


     This letter will in due course be published in the document
     "Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports" for general
     information.


     Yours sincerely


     FRENE GINWALA, MP

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the South African Human
     Rights Commission for 2001-2002, including the Report of the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.


 (b)    Strategic Plan of the South African Human Rights Commission for
     2003-2006.

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Foundation for Education,
     Science and Technology, including the Report of the Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for the period 1 April 2002 to
     30 November 2002 [RP 38-2003].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the South African
     Geographical Names Council for 2001-2002.

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

 (a)    Southern African Development Community Protocol on Forestry,
     tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Southern African Development
     Community Protocol on Forestry.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Supplementary Report of Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government to “Report on Study Tour of Municipalities”, dated 10 June 2003:

 The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government  reports  as
 follows:


 The Committee requests  the  House  to  consider  the  following  draft
 resolution as a supplementary report to its report on its study tour of
 municipalities, dated 15 April 2003, which appeared in the  ATC  of  13
 May 2003:


 This House notes:


 1.     The Portfolio  Committee  on  Provincial  and  Local  Government
     undertook a major study  tour  of  municipalities  from  20  to  30
     January 2003. Overall, the study tour covered 63 municipalities,  3
     metro subcouncils,  7  MECs  and  provincial  departments,  4  ward
     committee and public meetings, 3  urban  and  rural  nodes,  and  3
     Planning  and  Implementation  Centres.  In  all,   the   Committee
     interacted with over 2200 people.


 2.     On 15 April 2003 the Committee adopted a  report  on  the  study
     tour. The report was published in the ATC on 13 May 2003, and  5000
     copies of a special printed version distributed to a wide range  of
     stakeholders.


 3.     A debate on the report was held in the House on 27 May 2003, and
     the report was noted by the House.


 4.     The report contained several proposals for action which need  to
     be adopted.


 This House notes, further, the following observations in the report:


 1.     The core principles, values and features of the new local
     government system are sound. Essentially, the challenges are
     around implementation.
 2.     There is a need for greater understanding among councillors,
     officials, communities and other stakeholders on the need for and
     value of the two-tier system of district and local municipalities.
     However, the Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic
     Party believe that the two-tier system is fundamentally flawed and
     district municipalities should be phased out as soon as possible.


 3.     Significant improvements in service delivery and development
     will not be possible without greater co-ordination and co-
     operation across the three spheres of government. Provincial and
     national departments tend to ignore municipal IDPs in their plans,
     programmes, strategies and projects.


 4.     Financial issues constitute the biggest challenge confronting
     municipalities. Municipalities have to far more effectively and
     productively manage their funds, raise revenue, and deploy funds
     and other resources. Municipalities also have to do far more to
     collect arrears from those who can afford to pay, especially the
     private sector and government departments. It is clear, however,
     that there is a need for a new local government financial system
     that is appropriate to the new developmental model of local
     government.


 5.     Significant progress has been achieved in the provision of free
     basic services, especially water. It is vital, however, that a
     much higher proportion of people living in the rural areas, who
     are often those most in need, receive free basic water.  Many
     municipalities feel that they will not be ready by 1 July to take
     over water projects and schemes currently being run by the
     Department of Water Affairs and Forestry.  They have concerns
     about capacity, funds and the pressing  need to address other
     challenges in the transformation.  The provision of free basic
     electricity to be rolled out from 1 July 2003 nationally will also
     pose considerable challenges.


 6.     While the considerable potential of community participation in
     the new local government system is far from developed, there has
     been reasonable progress over the past two years. There is a need,
     however, to ensure greater and more consistent participation. Ward
     committees have a vital role to play in this regard. The
     legislation on ward committees did not cater for some of the huge
     wards that have since been demarcated, especially in the rural
     areas, some of which stretch for up to 70 kilometres.


 7.     The quality of leadership in a municipality, especially
     councillors, but also officials and community representatives,
     signally influences its effectiveness, notwithstanding the
     constraints of funds and resources, and the magnitude of the
     challenges.


 8.     Effective capacity-building and training programmes are
     indispensable to the successful implementation of the new system
     of local government and to significant advances in delivery,
     development and democracy. The current programmes are not
     adequate. It is clear that the Local Government, Water and Related
     Services Sector Education and Training Authority is not effective.


 9.     If formal and informal participation in municipal activities is
     put together, traditional leaders are more active in municipal
     affairs than is made out in the public discourse. Clearly,
     traditional leaders can play an extremely important role in
     municipalities. The potential for this has to be developed. The
     Inkatha Freedom Party does not agree with this observation,
     believing that the role of traditional leaders cannot be
     reconciled with the current local government system.


 10.    Provincial governments can do more to assist municipalities,
     notwithstanding their financial and other limitations.


 11.    Despite its limitations of funds, resources and personnel, SALGA
     has to be far more effective than it currently is.


 12.    Understandably, perhaps, the new local government system has
     become a major site of waging intra-party struggles, apart from
     the obvious inter-party struggles. These party struggles should
     not serve to deter the implementation of the new local government
     system. In fact, political parties can play an important role in
     consolidating the new local government system. It is vital that a
     productive relationship develops between all political parties and
     municipal structures.


 13.    Some municipalities, without the most minimal financial,
     economic, revenue or other base do not seem viable - unless
     drastic measures are taken, not just by the municipalities
     concerned, but by provincial and national government, the private
     sector, communities and other stakeholders. Fundamental changes to
     municipal boundaries should be approached cautiously. Boundary
     issues should not, also, be conflated with the many other issues
     affecting the viability of municipalities. But it could be that in
     some cases boundaries might have to reviewed.


 14.    Municipalities find the deadlines set by the Department to
     implement certain provisions of the legislation or other aspects
     of the new local government system too onerous to meet.  The
     deadlines do not sufficiently acknowledge the significantly
     differing capacities of municipalities.


 15.    While the case for increases in the remuneration of some
     councillors is not sound, in the case of others it certainly is.
     There needs to be a much more open and informed debate about what
     the possibilities and limits are of any increases.


 16.    There is a need to provide  a firm framework for the
     remuneration of municipal managers.


 17.    It is clear that unless municipalities get more resources and
     increase service delivery, the new local government system will
     not be effectively implemented. At the same time, unless the new
     local government system is more effectively implemented,
     municipalities will not be able to secure more resources and
     significantly increase delivery.


 18.    Municipalities are in the early stages of a major transformation
     to a fundamentally new system of local government. With huge
     challenges and limited resources and capacity, municipalities are
     certainly making more progress than is commonly made out, even if
     less than they should. However, together with national and
     provincial government and other key stakeholders, they have to be
     significantly effective.


 The House therefore resolves:


 1.     The Ministry and Department of Provincial and Local Government,
     South African Local Government Association (SALGA) and Portfolio
     Committee on Provincial and Local Government meet as soon as
     possible and decide on a programme of action based on the
     observations and proposals in the report. This programme takes
     into account the existing Strategic Plan, programmes and projects
     of the Ministry and Department, including the decisions taken at
     the President's Co-ordinating Council workshop of 14 December 2001
     and the subsequent provincial workshops, that are seeking to
     address the issues raised in the report.  The programme should
     also take into account the wide range of responsibilities of the
     Department and its limitations of personnel, funds and other
     resources, and that there are limits, moreover, on how far the
     Department can intervene, as local government is a sphere of
     government in its own right. The programme should  define clearly
     the respective roles of the Ministry and Department, SALGA and the
     Portfolio Committee. Ultimately, the Ministry and Department will
     be accountable to parliament for the implementation of the
     programme of action.


 2.     The programme includes consideration of the following:


     a) There is a need for more education about the value and need for
          the two-tier system of district and local municipalities.
          Greater clarity on the precise division of powers and
          functions between local and district municipalities to come
          into effect from 1 July 2003 is also necessary, as is ongoing
          support to implement the new powers and functions. The
          financial implications of the new allocations of powers and
          functions needs to be clarified. It is also important that
          there is alignment between the Minister's "authorisations" of
          the four "national " powers and functions of water,
          sanitation, electricity and municipal health and the MECs'
          "adjustments" of the remaining powers and functions.


     b) The Department-led project to provide greater clarity and
          certainty on the constitutional powers and functions of local
          government and the senses in which they are distinct from and
          overlap with provincial and national powers and functions
          should be speeded up.


     c) Legislative and other means should be explored to ensure that
          provincial and national departments take municipal IDPs into
          account when shaping their plans, programmes, projects and
          budgets.  Parliamentary committees should increasingly monitor
          whether national departments are taking into account IDPs in
          their plans, programmes, projects and budgets. Provinces
          should be encouraged to develop new growth and development
          plans that are shaped by and also shape IDPs. Municipalities
          also need to be given more assistance to link IDPs and
          budgets.  That IDPs are dealt with by provincial departments
          of local government and budgets are dealt with by National
          Treasury also needs to be addressed. To ensure more effective
          integrated government, national departments should avoid by-
          passing provincial departments when dealing with
          municipalities. The pending Intergovernmental Relations Bill
          should seek to be part of the response to some of the issues
          raised here.


     d) Municipalities need to do far more to contend with their
          financial challenges. They also need considerable support.
          The current support programmes need to be more co-ordinated
          and effective. The Ministry and Department need to explore the
          possibility of provincial governments deducting money owed by
          provincial departments to municipalities for rates, services
          and agency functions before allocating the departments the
          money due to them in terms of the provincial budget each year,
          provided municipalities provide timeous and verifiable
          accounts. A similar approach should be explored with National
          Treasury in the case of errant national departments. The
          review of the current local government financial system needs
          to be speeded up - and the new system that emerges must be
          commensurate with the new developmental model of local
          government. An important aspect of the new model should be a
          fundamental review of the formula used to decide on local
          government's "equitable share" that takes greater account of
          the developmental imperatives of local government, including
          the need to provide free basic water and electricity services.


     e) Municipalities should do more to ensure consistent and
          effective community participation. All municipalities should
          be encouraged to establish effective ward committees.
          Municipalities not established as ward types should consider
          establishing ward committee-like structures in a way that does
          not transgress the law. The Department should give more
          support for the establishment of ward committees. Section 73
          (2)b of the Municipal Systems Act should be reviewed to
          provide for the possibility of large wards having more than
          ten members.


     f) In consultation with the Ministry and Department of Water
          Affairs (DWAF), the Department needs to more effectively
          attend to the difficulties of capacity, logistics,
          infrastructure and funding in the way of extending free basic
          water to more people in the rural areas.  The legal and other
          impediments to providing free basic services to farm workers
          on private farms needs to be addressed.  The two Departments
          also need to address the concerns of municipalities about
          taking over DWAF water schemes and projects from 1 July 2003,
          and ensure that the hand-over is phased in sensibly and
          sensitively.   In consultation with the Ministry and
          Department of Mineral and Energy, the Department needs to give
          effective support to municipalities to roll out free basic
          electricity from 1 July 2003. Municipalities also need to be
          informed more about the financial implications of the
          restructuring of the electricity industry.


     g) There should be a concerted review of the capacity-building and
          training programmes undertaken so far to establish how useful
          they are and to develop new and innovative courses and
          programmes whose outcomes are more easy to evaluate.  Greater
          and more effective co-ordination and co-operation, within a
          commonly accepted national framework, of all the local
          government capacity-building and training roleplayers is
          urgently necessary. The Department, SALGA and other
          stakeholders have to intervene to ensure that the Local
          Government, Water and Related Services Sector Education and
          Training Authority is more effective.


     h) The White Paper and national framework legislation on the role
          of traditional leadership and institutions should seek to
          address the current differences around the role of traditional
          leadership and institutions and provide for a developmental
          role for traditional leaders.


     i) The pending Intergovernmental Relations Bill should seek to
          develop further the role of provincial government in
          supporting local government.


     j) Without intruding on the autonomy of SALGA, the Department and
          other relevant stakeholders should contribute more to SALGA
          playing a more effective role.
     k) The Municipal Demarcation Board explores the possibility of
          reviewing the boundaries of municipalities referred to in
          section 13 above.


     l) The task team, comprising representatives of the Department,
          National Treasury and SALGA , reviewing the remuneration of
          councillors needs to act with due expedition. Municipalities
          without a rates base to remunerate councillors adequately
          should be supported from the national fiscus to meet the
          costs. Over time, the possibilities should be explored, within
          the constraints of the national budget, of the national
          government meeting a substantial part of the costs of
          remunerating councillors.


     m) The Minister's guidelines on the remuneration of municipal
          managers need to be finalised as soon as possible. If it is
          constitutionally possible, the Minister should issue
          regulations instead, and, if necessary, legislative amendments
          should be effected to allow the Minister to do so.


     n) In setting deadlines for municipalities to effect key aspects
          of the new model of local government, the Department should
          consult more with SALGA and take greater account of the
          differing capacity of municipalities.


     o) There are other aspects of the observations from the report set
          out above for which practical decisions for action should be
          explored. In particular, there should be appropriate focus on
          the need to ensure gender equity in the implementation of the
          local government transformation process.


 3.     Consideration should be given to exploring the possibility of
     parliament allocating a week, some time in the next twelve months,
     for MPs to visit every municipality in the country, to evaluate
     progress in the local government transformation process and
     provide support for the consolidation of the new system of local
     government.  If effected, members should submit their views to the
     Portfolio Committee to prepare a report for debate in the House.


 4.     There should be a report from the Ministry on progress in
     respect of this resolution given to the House within a year.


 5.     Consideration  should  be  given  to  allocating  the  Portfolio
     Committee  on  Provincial  and   Local   Government   a   full-time
     researcher for a one-year term to assist the Committee  to  fulfill
     its monitoring and oversight role in respect of  the  programme  of
     action that flows from this resolution.


 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on Budget Vote 5: Provincial and Local Government, dated 10 June 2003:

 The Portfolio Committee on  Provincial  and  Local  Government,  having
 considered Budget Vote 5: Provincial and Local Government,  reports  as
 follows:


  A.    Introduction


      1.      The budget review of the Ministry and the Department of
          Provincial and Local Government was undertaken from 10 to 14
          March and on 3 June 2003.   As a precursor to the review, a
          workshop was held with the Department on 19 February to
          consider the strategic plan and programmes of the Department.


     2. Those who appeared before the Committee included Deputy
          Minister N Botha; Director-General Ms L Msengana-Ndlela; Chief
          Financial Officer Mr C Clerihew; Deputy Directors-General Mr E
          Africa, Ms J Manche and Mr G Mokate; Chief Directors Mr L
          Buys, Ms G Gumbi-Masilela, Mr S Selesho, Ms T Mketi, Mr D
          Powell and Mr S Dzengwa; and Directors Mr R Kruger, Mr W
          Nkuna, Mr Y Patel, and Ms K Harrison.


     3. SALGA (South African Local Government Association) was
          represented by its Chairperson, Father S Mkhatshwa; Treasurer,
          M J Mokoena; Chief Executive Officer, Mr T Mokwena;
          Councillors Mr S Somyo, Mr D Masemola, Ms N Dube and Ms N
          Mayathula-Khoza; Director of Policy and Strategy, Mr M Soni,
          and Director of Programmes, Ms J Sibisi.  The National House
          of Traditional Leaders was represented by its Chairperson,
          Inkosi M B Mzimela; Members Kgosi S V Suping, Morena M F
          Mopeli and Khosi F P Kutama; Chief Executive, Mr M Gobe; and
          Senior Planner Mr ZM Matebese. The delegation from MIIU
          (Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit) consisted of the
          Chairperson, Ms M Hesketh; Chief Executive Officer, Ms K
          Pearce; Director, Ms N Mjoli-Mncube; Financial Operations
          Manager, Mr J Lesaoane; Project Managers, Ms D Magagumela, Ms
          J Levister; Business Development manager, Ms A Bassa; and
          Municipal Infrastructure Specialist, Mr J Leighland. The
          Municipal Demarcation Board was represented by Chief Executive
          Officer, Mr H Monare and the Head of Research and
          Implementation, Mr R Willemse.  The Local Government Water,
          Related Services Sector Education and Training Authority
          (LGWSETA) was represented by Chairperson, Mr V Magagula;
          Leadership Manager, Mr S Mofokeng; and Communication Manager,
          Mr E Mnyakeng.


 B.     Political Overview of Budget


     1. Deputy Minister Ntombazana Botha explained that the budgetary
          allocations to the programmes of the Ministry and Department
          of Provincial and Local Government have to be located in the
          context of the Department's commitment to ensuring greater
          integrated governance and planning.  This is directed towards
          "pushing back the frontiers of poverty" - the theme of the
          President's "State of the Nation" address and the Minister of
          Finance's Budget speech.


     2. The Deputy Minister said that a key focus of the Department is
          on partnerships as part of the process of consolidating
          integrated governance and development.


     3. The Ministry and Department have recognised the need to focus
          more on provincial government and contribute to strengthening
          its role in IGR (Intergovernmental Relations). Provincial
          governments need to give more support to local government.
          Consideration needs to be given to provinces developing
          provincial growth and development plans that align with
          municipal IDPs (Integrated Development Plans).


     4. The Ministry is aware of the need to  expand  the  provision  of
          free basic water services and ensure the  successful  roll-out
          of free basic electricity from 1 July this year.


     5. The Ministry is aware that people  are  getting  impatient,  but
          the  current  pace  of  progress  on  the  ISRDP   (Integrated
          Sustainable  Rural  Development  Programme)  and  URP   (Urban
          Renewal  Programme)  has  the  advantage   of   ensuring   the
          sustainability of these programmes and  allows  for  a  better
          measure of progress.  Progress on ISRDP so far is greater than
          progress on URP.  The Deputy Minister suggested that it  would
          be useful for the Portfolio Committee to visit the nodes.


     6. The Ministry is to contribute to ensuring that the capacity-
          building programmes of municipalities are improved, especially
          for women.


     7. The Ministry recognises that issues of traditional leadership
          are sensitive and need to be managed appropriately. Progress
          is being made, but there is a lot of misunderstanding that
          needs to be addressed.  The Ministry is aware of the concerns
          of traditional leaders and is addressing them. The Ministry
          welcomes the increasing involvement of traditional leaders in
          municipal issues.  The Ministry intends to finalise the White
          Paper on Traditional Leadership and Institutions and introduce
          national framework legislation soon.


     8. The Deputy Minister expressed the appreciation of the Ministry
          to the Portfolio Committee for the major study tour the
          Committee undertook of municipalities and the useful report it
          published.


    C. Overview of the Budget


         1.   Of the R6 579 638 000 overall budget for the 2002/03
             financial year the Department spent 99,6%. R22 878 000 was
             unspent.


         2.   The most significant case of under-spending was R9 958 000
             in respect of Auxiliary and Associated Services. The under-
             spending in this programme was due mainly to the R8 923 000
             unspent allocation of the Commission for Promotion and
             Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and
             Linguistic Communities. This is because the Commission will
             only be established in this financial year.


     3. R9 399 001 000 has been allocated to the Ministry and
          Department of Provincial and Local Government for this
          financial year. This represent a nominal increase of about 43%
          compared to last year. The Ministry and Department's budgets
          are expected to increase by 13% in 2004/05 and 9% in the
          2005/06.


     4. There has been an increase of about 60% in local government's
          "equitable share" from R3 963 614 000 to R6 343 478 000 this
          financial year.  The increased funds are mainly to be directed
          to municipalities to improve their capacity to deliver quality
          services.


     5. The Department is committed to focussing more on policy
          implementation as from this year. An allocation of R1 100 000
          000 to municipalities will be utilised to provide free basic
          water and electricity.  3 million more people have been given
          access to free basic water in the past financial year. 28
          million people are targeted to have access to free basic
          electricity in 2003/04.


     6. The Department drew attention to the following:


          *   The LED (Local Economic Development) and Social Plan Grant
              is to be incorporated into CMIP (Consolidated Municipal
              Infrastructure Programme) in 2004/05. The MIG (Municipal
              Infrastructure Grant) will be a new grant from this year.


          *   Local government capacity-building is to be incorporated
              into the Municipal Systems Improvement Programme in
              2005/06.


          *   The Local Government Transitional Fund will be
              incorporated into the local government "equitable share".


          *   There will be two new items in the budget: a Commission on
              Claims and Disputes relating to traditional leaders, and
              the SA Cities Network.


     7. Overall, the majority in the Committee feels that the
          Department made reasonably good use of its budget in the past
          financial year. The Department must be complimented for its
          negligible under-spending.


     8. The Committee welcomes the rationalisation of the different
          grants allocated to local government.
     9. The Committee recognises that there is a significant increase
          in the "equitable share" allocated to local government over
          the MTEF period. It believes that municipalities have to be
          more productive and effective in raising revenue, managing
          their resources and spending money. But it is clear that for
          municipalities to effectively fulfil their constitutional
          mandate their equitable share has to be increased
          significantly. The review of the "equitable share" formula
          underway needs to be speeded up.


     10.     The Committee is aware that allocating more money does not
          necessarily mean better outcomes, and that departments have to
          have appropriate capacity to productively use increased funds.
          However, given the magnitude of the local government
          transformation, and the responsibilities of the Department,
          its budget has to be increased appropriately so that it can
          more effectively fulfil its role.


  D.    Administration
     1. The new Director General of the Department, Ms L Msengana-
          Ndlela, was appointed on 1 August 2002. The Committee
          congratulated her on her appointment and noted the effective
          manner in which she had assumed leadership of the Department.


     2. The Department has decided to create units on:


          *   Urban Renewal Programme (URP) and  Integrated  Sustainable
              Rural Development Programme (ISRDP).


          *   Targeted Provincial Support.


          *     Intergovernmental   Fiscal   Relations   and   Municipal
              Viability.


          *   Free Basic Services and Infrastructure.


          *   Corporate Governance.
          *   Public Participation and Empowerment.


     3. Twenty posts have been created at senior management level and
          the Department is in the process of filling these posts in the
          2003/04 financial year.


     4. The Committee feels that with the introduction of new internal
          policies and systems, the overall administration and
          management of the Department has improved.  The Committee also
          feels that the Department has done well in terms of the
          requirements of labour equity, particularly in terms of gender
          equity.


    E. Governance and Development


         1.   Intergovernmental Relations (IGR)


          1.  R5 570 000 has been allocated to the intergovernmental
              relations sub-programme for this financial year. This
              represents a decrease of about 13% from last year.


          2.  The Department acknowledged that it needs to focus more on
              the provincial government. Because of its primary focus
              on local government, this has not been possible until
              now. Stronger provincial government will also serve to
              strengthen local government. Among the support programmes
              for provincial government are the following:


              *    Supporting the Premiers' Offices to coordinate
                   Intergovernmental Relations (IGR).


              *    Aligning the Provincial Growth and Development Plans
                   (PGDs) with local government Integrated Development
                   Plans (IDPs).


              *    Working with National Treasury in supporting
                   provinces to assist municipalities to implement the
                   municipal finance management legislation.


          3.  The Committee pointed out that one of the main issues that
              emerged from a recent major study tour it had undertaken
              of municipalities is that there is need for much greater
              integrated governance if service delivery and development
              is to be advanced. The Committee stressed that
              municipalities generally complained that national and
              provincial departments ignored IDPs in their plans,
              programmes and projects. The Committee feels that the
              Department has to do more to ensure integrated
              governance, and is to pursue this further with the
              Department. The Committee welcomes the Department's focus
              on the Premiers' Offices being responsible for
              coordinating integrated planning.


          4.  Given the importance of the IGR, the Committee expresses
              its concern about the reduction of the allocation to the
              sub-programme.


          5.  The Committee expresses its concern about the capacity of
              municipalities to effectively implement the new division
              of powers and functions between local and district
              municipalities to come into effect from 1 July this year.
               The Committee refers the Department to its "Report on
              Study Tour of Municipalities" published in the ATC of 13
              May 2003 regarding its concerns on this issue and other
              issues relating to the division of powers and functions
              between district and local municipalities.


     2. Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme (CMIP)


          1.  The allocation to CMIP has increased by about 33% from R1
              730 853 000 last year to R2 246 253 000 this year.  The
              Department is aiming to benefit 650 000 additional
              households through CMIP. R309 000 000 from CMIP will be
              allocated to new investment and the rehabilitation and
              upgrading of basic infrastructure for local
              municipalities with budgets of larger than R200 000 000.
              Of this, R43 996 000 will be allocated to local
              municipalities in which there are nodes. In the case of
              district municipalities, R1 400 000 000 will be
              allocated. A significant part of this, that is R385 659
              000, will be allocated to district municipalities that
              have nodes. In respect of metropolitan municipalities,
              R549 000 000 will be allocated.


          2.  The Portfolio Committee notes the progress made in terms
              of CMIP and will monitor further progress in this regard.


     3. Local Economic Development


          1.  The LED (Local Economic Development) Fund will be
              allocated R120 000 000. It is expected that 3 000
              temporary jobs will be created.
          2.  From the LED Fund, local municipalities will receive R94
              100 000 in order to contribute to job creation and SMME
              (Small, Medium, and Micro Enterprises) development.
              Additionally, R26 700 000 of the LED Fund will be
              allocated to rural nodes in order to promote agriculture
              and tourism. The metropolitan municipalities will receive
              R9 200 000.


          3.  The Committee feels that the LED is vital and that the
              Department should assist municipalities more to put into
              effect LED programmes.  Most municipalities attend to LED
              on an ad-hoc basis and do not locate it strategically.
              There needs to be a much more co-ordinated and focussed
              approach to LED.


     4. Urban and Rural Nodes
          1.  R1 200 000 000 of CMIP funds will be allocated to rural
              projects.  Of this R307 700 000 will be allocated to the
              13 development nodes in 55 local municipalities.


          2.  Consideration is being given to introducing more nodes
              through consultation with the President's Office.


          3.  The URP (Urban Renewal Programme) and ISRDP (Integrated
              Sustainable Rural Development Programme) have identified
              227 anchor projects, with 60% currently in the design and
              implementation phase.  Due to major backlogs that still
              characterise nodal areas, about 67% of anchor projects
              are infrastructure related.  All nodal municipalities
              have completed their Integrated Development Plans (IDPs).
          4.  According to the Department, key stakeholders such as the
              National Coalition for Municipal Service Delivery, the
              Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the World Bank are also
              collaborating with government to support the programmes.
              The Department believes that the key challenges are
              getting the three spheres of government to co-operate
              around the budgeting and planning of this key government
              initiative and resourcing the management of the
              programmes in the various nodes.


          5.  The Committee is interested to pursue further with the
              Department the criteria by which further nodes would be
              decided on and to get a better sense of the progress
              achieved so far. The Committee is to visit the nodes in
              the 2004/5 financial year. The Committee reiterates its
              request to the Minister to write to all the MPs living in
              the nodes or have constituency offices there to enlist
              their co-operation in monitoring progress and
              contributing to the more effective implementation of the
              programmes.


  F.    Institutional Reform and Support


     1. Disaster management


          1.  R13 317 000 will be allocated to disaster management to
              enhance disaster preparedness and management capacity.
              The Department feels that this will improve human
              security and reduce the vulnerability of urban and rural
              communities to natural and human-made disasters.


          2.  The Department noted that the IDPs of a significant number
              of municipalities did not include disaster management
              plans and is to attend to this.


          3.  Given the magnitude of the challenges of disaster
              management in the country and the need to effectively
              implement the new model of disaster management, the
              committee feels that the budget allocated to disaster
              management is inadequate and needs to be increased
              appropriately next year.  The Committee is also aware
              that many IDPs do not include disaster management plans
              and believes that the Ministry should draw this to the
              attention of the MEC's for local government and SALGA to
              act upon.


     2. Institutional Capacity Building and Support


          1.  R12 478 000 has been allocated to this sub-programme.


          2.  While recognising short-term needs, the  Department  feels
              that there has to be long-term perspectives  on  capacity-
              building within the Department and in the  provincial  and
              local spheres of government.


          3.  The Department feels that the offices of the Premiers have
              a crucial role to play in coordinating capacity-building
              in the provinces.


          4.  The Department is seeking to consolidate all the grants
              for local government capacity-building, including the
              grants offered by National Treasury.
          5.  The Department explained that the  creation  of  a  single
              public service for all three spheres of  government  would
              also contribute to ensuring that capacity is  more  evenly
              spread across the spheres.


          6.  The majority in the committee welcome the move towards a
              single public service. The Democratic Alliance expressed
              its reservation about this.


          7.  The committee welcomes the merger of the local government
              capacity-building grants and support the view that all
              these grants should be co-ordinated by the Department.


          8.  The Committee feels that effective capacity-building and
              training is indispensable to the successful
              implementation of the new system of local government and
              to significant advances in delivery, development and
              democracy. The current programmes need to be reviewed to
              establish how effective they are.  The Committee feels
              that new and more innovative courses and programmes need
              to be developed whose outcomes are more easy to evaluate.


          9.  The Committee reiterates its concern that there needs to
              be greater and more effective co-ordination and co-
              operation, within a commonly accepted national framework,
              of all local government capacity-building and training
              role-players. As a contribution to that, the Committee
              will host a workshop of all relevant stakeholders on 14
              May 2003.


         G.   Auxiliary and Associated Services


     1. Commission on Claims and Disputes Relating to Traditional
          Leadership


          1.  The Department explained that the above Commission is to
              be established after the national framework legislation
              on traditional leaders is passed.  The Commission will
              address claims and disputes relating to issues of
              succession and legitimacy of traditional leaders.


          2.  The Committee welcomes the formation of such a Commission.
              It feels that for the Commission itself to be legitimate
              it must be established only after proper consultation
              with traditional leaders.


     2. South African Cities Network


          1.  The South African Cities Network sub-programme has been
              allocated R1 500 000 for the 2003/04 financial year. The
              Department explained that networks, engagements and
              partnerships would become increasingly important in
              governance and matters of local service delivery.


      2.      From the study tour of municipalities undertaken by the
              Portfolio Committee it emerged clearly that the
              "secondary" cities see themselves as "emerging metros"
              and expect to be constituted as metros by the time of the
              next local government elections.  The Committee feels
              that the Ministry and Department need to engage with the
              "secondary "cities to address this matter.

H. South African Local Government Association (SALGA)

     1. The financial year for municipalities is from 1 July in one
          year to 30 June the next year. This therefore influences the
          way SALGA expends money and report to parliament. SALGA
          reported that its total income for the past financial year was
          R120 000 000. It received a grant of R22 000 000 from the
          national fiscus, of which R7 000 000 was earmarked for
          restructuring. R98 000 000 was raised from levies from its
          affiliates.


     2. The budget expenditure estimate for the 2002/03 financial year
          is R96 700 000.  Of this, R56 800 000 is budget expenditure
          for the national office.  The provincial organised local
          government budget expenditure estimates are:


              *    R7 800 000 for Gauteng.
              *    R3 500 000 for Limpopo.
              *    R2 400 000 for North West.
              *    R1 800 000 for Mpumalanga.
              *    R3 900 000 for Free State.
              *    R20 500 000 for the other four provinces.


     3. R20 250 000 has been allocated to SALGA for the 2003/04
          financial year. There is an 8% decrease from the previous
          financial year.


     4. SALGA feels that the allocation it gets from the national
          fiscus is far from adequate. It consulted the provincial
          associations on the need to increase levies. The provincial
          associations consulted with municipalities falling under them.
           SALGA recognises that some municipalities cannot afford the
          levies due from them, and is to consider exempting them.


     5. SALGA reported that it has adopted a new administrative
          structure and has developed new internal systems and policies
          on human resources and finance, audit and procurement
          committees, performance management as well as draft governance
          charter.


     6. SALGA also reported its achievements for July 2002 to April
          2003 as including:


          *   Participation in the formulation of a new IGR Framework.


          *    Anumber  of  municipal  interventions   in   respect   of
              governance issues, including Quakeni in the Eastern  Cape;
              Moqhaka in Free State; Dihlabeng, Taung and Bela  Bela  in
              the North West.


          *   Agreement on a shift to multi-year bargaining and multi-
              year salary and wage agreements.


          *   Development of a Skills Development Strategy.


          *   Agreement with the Department on a joint approach to
              developing an Integrated Capacity Building Strategy for
              the Sector.


          *   Training of 93% of approximately 8000 councillors through
              Core Councillor Training Programmes.


          *   Training of about 700 councillors on Module 1 of the
              Financial Management Training Programme.


          *   Training of approximately 600 councillors through the
              HIV/AIDs Programme.


     7. SALGA stated that its priorities for the medium term include:


          *   Improving intergovernmental relations.


          *   Improving the operations of ward committees.


          *    Building  local  capacity  to   develop   effective   and
              sustainable economic development strategies.


          *   Exploring and strengthening urban-rural linkages and
              increasing SALGA's involvement in URP and ISRDP.


          *   Developing effective strategies to deal with the
              operational and economic impact of HIV/AIDS.


          *   Improving the relationship between development strategies,
              IDPs and council budgets, service delivery systems and
              institutional arrangements.


          *   Improving municipal performance management systems.


          *   Mainstreaming gender.


          *   Develop labour relations environment that promotes service
              delivery.


          *   Development of an integrated support and capacity building
              strategy.


          *   Improving the public profile of SALGA.


     8. The Committee stressed the vital role that SALGA has to play.
          It pointed out that it had emerged from the study tour of
          municipalities undertaken by the Committee, that SALGA needs
          to play a more effective role, notwithstanding its limitations
          of funds, resources and personnel. The Committee would like to
          meet with SALGA at an appropriate stage to discuss the
          legislative and other implications of the restructuring that
          it was envisaging.


  I.    Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit (MIIU)


       1.    The MIIU's allocation has increased by 43%, from R7 000
             000 last year to R10 000 000 this year. Although the
             primary concern of MIIU is to draw private sector
             investment to municipalities, it is also interested in
             facilitating public-public partnerships. The MIIU is also
             increasingly interested in appropriately assisting in the
             implementation of CMIP. It has extended its programme to
             provide municipalities with training to negotiate contracts
             on services. The MIIU also has an increasing number of
             projects in smaller municipalities. The MIIU explained
             however that its projects are largely determined by demand,
             and there are budget constraints on how much it can do.


     2. The MIIU is also aware of the need for its work to advance
          government programmes on Black Economic Empowerment.


     3. The MIIU raised the need for clarity on the applicability of
          section 94 I (c) of the Municipal Systems Act which allows the
          Minister to set a limit on tariff increases on services
          provided through public-private partnerships.


     4. The Committee expressed its appreciation for the very competent
          report presented by MIIU. Following consultations with the
          Minister and Department, the Committee would respond to MIIU's
          concerns about section 94 1 (c) of the Municipal Systems Act.
          The Committee would like to pursue further issues with the
          MIIU and would seek an appropriate time to engage with it
          further.


J.      Municipal Demarcation Board


     1. The Municipal Demarcation Board budget allocation has increased
          by 23% from R11 670 000 in the past financial year to R14 311
          000 in this financial year. The MDB feels however that its
          budget is inadequate. The Board feels that it cannot fulfil
          its mandate without a larger budget as it needs to review all
          the ward boundaries before the 2005 local government
          elections. The Board also explained that there are 64 requests
          for re-determinations of the outer boundaries of
          municipalities before it at present. The Board feels that it
          is untenable that it has to rely on donor funding to perform
          certain key functions.


     2. The Board's main activities have centred around boundary
          determinations, advice to MEC's for Local Government on the
          capacity of municipalities to perform functions, advice to
          departments on the alignment of functional boundaries with
          municipal boundaries, and the development of an integrated
          database.


     3. The Committee acknowledged the excellent work that the Board
          has done, with very limited resources and budgets.  However,
          the study tour of municipalities revealed that there are some
          municipalities that are not viable as they do not have the
          most minimal financial, economic, revenue or other base.
          There is a need for drastic measures to be taken, not just by
          the municipalities concerned, but by provincial and national
          government, the private sector, communities and other
          stakeholders to rescue these municipalities. The Committee
          recognises that fundamental changes to municipal boundaries
          should be approached very cautiously. Boundary issues,
          moreover, should not be conflated with the many other issues
          affecting the viability of municipalities. But the Board might
          well have to reconsider the boundaries of these
          municipalities.


     4. The Committee also expressed its concern that there should be
          alignment between the Ministers "authorisations" of the four
          "national" powers and functions and the MECs "adjustments" of
          the remaining powers and functions, in the division between
          district and local municipalities. As the Board conducted the
          capacity assessments of municipalities on which the MECs based
          their decisions, the Committee feels that the Board can play a
          role in this regard.


  K.    National House of Traditional Leaders


     1. The National House of Traditional Leaders reported that the
          past financial year has not been a fruitful one because of the
          lack of progress on defining the powers and functions of
          traditional leaders.  The House also feels strongly that it
          should be funded to establish a permanent chamber in Cape Town
          to be near parliament so that it can participate effectively
          in legislation and policies affecting traditional leaders.  It
          also believes that all policies and legislation affecting
          traditional leaders should be referred to the House, and
          legislative amendments should be effected to ensure this.


     2. The House repeated its call for greater  autonomy  and  to  have
          more control over its own budget.  It also reiterated that  it
          wants to be "de-linked" from the Department and relate instead
          to the Presidency,  since  its  concerns  and  activities  cut
          across all departments.


     3. The House stressed the need for the finalisation  of  the  White
          paper  and   legislation   on   traditional   leadership   and
          institutions as soon as possible.


     4. The Committee pointed out that all the issues raised by the
          House in the previous year's budget review were taken up with
          the Ministry and Department. The Minister had several
          discussions with the Chairperson on these issues and had
          written to him to explain how the issues are being addressed.
          The Committee indicated that it cannot prescribe to the
          President as to which Ministry the House should fall under and
          suggested that the House takes this matter up with the
          President. It also suggested that while the House is
          negotiating with the Minister and Department on establishing a
          chamber in Cape Town, it should consider appointing a Cape
          Town-based parliamentary liaison officer. In respect of
          legislation to make it compulsory for all policies and bills
          affecting traditional leadership and institutions to be
          referred to the House, the Committee suggested that this
          matter should be addressed through the White Paper process and
          the legislation to follow.


     5. The Committee noted that the report of the House was much
          better this year than last year, but it needed to be improved
          to meet the norms set out in the PFMA (Public Finance
          Management Act) and those defined for a parliamentary
          committee in its oversight role.

L. Local Government, Water and Related Services Sector Education and Training Authority

     1. The LGWSETA (Local Government, Water and Related Services
          Sector Education and Training Authority) undertook a review of
          the current SSP (Sector Skills Plan) at a cost of R2 500 000.
          The review was undertaken because the existing SSP was
          inadequate to address the needs of the sector.  It was also
          not researched in great depth and lacked a "strategic analysis
          of the sector needs in respect of sector labour market
          economics".


     2. The LGWSETA stated that only 102 municipalities have submitted
          their WSPs ( Workshop Skills Plans).
     3. The LGWSETA further stated that it has not disbursed the R90
          000 000 levy contributed by employers.  This is because
          municipalities did not register  or submit WSPs to LGWSETA or
          failed to implement their WSPs.


     4. The Committee referred to its recent study tour of
          municipalities that revealed that the LGWSETA is not being
          effective. The Committee recognises that SETAs in general are
          not performing well, but stressed the vital role the LGWSETA
          has in the consolidation of the new system of local
          government. While acknowledging that the LGWSETA alone canoe
          be held solely responsible, the Committee expressed alarm
          about its failure to spend the R90 000 000 levy from
          employers.  The Committee is also aware of the perennial
          crisis of leadership in the LGWSETA and hopes that the
          appointment of a new CEO and the election of a new leadership
          will mean that the LGWSETA finally begins to become effective.
          For the past three years, the Committee has stressed its
          dissatisfaction with LGWSETA's performance. While recognising
          the independence of the LGWSETA, the Committee urges the
          Department to play a more active role in ensuring that the
          LGWSETA functions more effectively.  The Committee will pursue
          its concerns about the LGWSETA at the workshop set for 14 May.


 M.     Conclusion


     1. The Democratic Alliance has  expressed  its  reservations  about
          voting for this budget.


     2. The Department's presentations were much clearer and more
          directed and focused this year than previous years. The
          Committee welcomes this.
     3. The reports from SALGA, the National House of Traditional
          Leaders and LGWSETA do not meet the norms of the PFMA and
          those of the oversight role of a parliamentary committee. The
          Committee needs to discuss this with the Budget Committee of
          parliament and further pursue with it the request the
          Portfolio Committee raised that the Budget Committee should
          provide statutory bodies guidelines on the preparation of
          reports for portfolio committee budget hearings.


     4. The Committee also needs to improve its capacity to more
          effectively undertake its oversight role in respect of the
          budget. This matter should also be raised with the Budget
          Committee.


     5. The Committee also needs to play a part in the processing of
          the Division of Revenue Act and needs to pursue this further
          with the Finance Portfolio Committee and the Budget Committee.


     6. The Committee expresses its appreciation to the Ministry,
          Department and statutory bodies for their co-operation in the
          budget hearings.


     7. The Committee acknowledges the contribution of Mr C. Sibanyoni
          from the parliamentary research unit in the preparation of
          this report and expresses its appreciation.