WEDNESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:01.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

THE ROLE OF PARLIAMENTS IN ASSISTING MULTILATERAL ORGANISATIONS IN ENSURING PEACE AND SECURITY AND BUILDING AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION FOR PEACE

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Ms G L MAHLANGU-NKABINDE: Deputy Chair, earlier this morning I had an opportunity to chair a session at the World Parks Congress in Durban. One of the objectives of this session was the need to move beyond a view of protected areas as isolated islands to a broader view of protected areas as essential contributors to regional development.

Minister Valli Moosa and other Ministers gave input. South Africa, a country that was out in the dark because of apartheid, when the last world congress was held in Caracas, Venezuela, came out as a shining star, because we acknowledged that no country in isolation could bring changes to this world unless it …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, please. Hon members, you are having a multilateral organisation here. We are talking about Parliament assisting multilateral organisations. Carry on, hon member.

Ms G L MAHLANGU-NKABINDE: I just want to mention that whilst you were calling members to order time did not stop.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes, I will give you the few seconds.

Ms G L MAHLANGU-NKABINDE: Thank you. No country in isolation can bring changes to this world. They have to work with others. Our transfrontier parks are the envy of many countries. This debate today is about international networking. Through international conventions and protocols, such as the World Heritage Convention, South Africa managed to contribute towards protected areas.

This topic today has been debated several times by the Inter-Parliamentary Union. But because the IPU’s discussions, declarations and conclusions are not binding, some parliaments decided not to do a thing after these far- reaching discussions. The IPU is a body of parliaments of the world. It is a focal point for world dialogue, and it works for peace and co-operation among peoples, and for the firm establishment of representative democracy.

The questions of peace, security, strife and conflict were brought to the attention of the IPU several times. The union made an attempt to address these issues. The IPU reaffirmed its position that internal conflicts, especially in developing countries, could be averted. At the 103rd Inter- Parliamentary Conference in Amman, Jordan, having noted the contribution of poverty to strife and conflict, the IPU called for the cancellation of external debt, and for the conversion of these funds into social development projects, along with the support for environmental programmes as part of sustainable development.

At the 104th conference in Jarkata, Indonesia, in its resolution regarding financing for development and a new paradigm of economic and social development designed to eradicate poverty, the IPU called for both developed and developing countries to pursue an economic, ecological and social development policy in the interest of human security.

At the 105th conference, in its resolution securing observance of the principles of international law in the interest of world peace and security, the IPU urged all states to reduce the difference between their political, economic and social systems and co-operate with each other with a view to maintaining international peace. That was in April 2001. We are today discussing the same topic, because, indeed, peace is threatened. These are some of the steps that the IPU has taken and continues to take.

It was at the 106th Inter-Parliamentary Union meeting in Ouagadougou, on 11 September 2001, where 143 parliaments had to leave Burkina-Faso after receiving news about the World Trade Centre in New York. All deliberations had to come to an end because terror had hit the Twin Towers of New York. It was very clear that this incident would affect all the delegates, and that, clearly, peace and security worldwide was still under threat. It was a very sad day. The poor Burkinabe not only extended themselves to prepare to host this important conference, but they took all they had to the conference, hoping to sell their products, crafts and beautiful clothes, but all that had to come to an end.

The IPU is committed to peace and security, importantly so, in order to build peace in strife-torn areas like our continent. In the Great Lakes region in Africa, the IPU is continuously engaging parties that are at loggerheads, promoting democracy and helping in training parliamentarians.

Just two months ago, the IPU was present in Rwanda to encourage women to stand for the 24 seats that are set aside for women. They also encouraged them to work together to put the scars of the genocide in the past and to rebuild their country. These are but a few examples of what the IPU, as the body of parliaments, does from time to time to forge unity, promote peace and support democratic parliaments.

When parliaments attended the IPU conference in Chile, it coincided with the war on Iraq. The IPU agenda had to be altered to include an item: “The need to put an urgent end to the war in Iraq and to re-establish peace; the role of the United Nations and the IPU.” To quote from the preamble of this resolution, the IPU delegates said:

(The IPU is) gravely concerned by the war in Iraq, a sovereign member state of the United Nations, and its consequences for peace and stability in the region … expressing profound sorrow for the victims among the civilian population, particularly women, children and the elderly; recalling the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and the primary responsibility of the United Nations Security Council under the Charter for the maintenance of international peace and security; affirming its adherence to the principles of maintaining the sovereignty, territorial integrity and security of Iraq; reaffirming the right of the people of Iraq to determine their own political future and to control their own natural resources; underlining the importance of respecting human rights and fundamental freedoms, and religious, ethnic and cultural diversity in the territory of Iraq at all times, and stressing the urgent need to provide humanitarian assistance to the people of Iraq and welcoming United Nations Security Council Resolution 1472 on the provision of humanitarian relief measures to the people of Iraq throughout the country on an equitable basis.

There is a lot we can do as parliaments and parliamentarians. Many countries have not adopted or ratified many international security protocols. We can encourage them to do so in our deliberations. I have an example here. Even we, a progressive and a democratic country, have not acceded to the CEDAW protocol, a protocol that is very important for women who are less fortunate than ourselves.

We know very well that our status as women will never change, because we have a country where the central view or aim is to promote the emancipation of women. But there are women in Saudi Arabia who need us to ratify that protocol to make their lives easier. Parliamentarians and parliaments can eliminate the causes of terrorism and conflict by focusing on promoting and ensuring socioeconomic development and racial, ethnic, religious and geographic equality.

In conclusion, one advantage of these discussions today, and many others of this nature, is that we as South African parliamentarians in all the international networks ranging from the UN, the AU, SADC and the Commonwealth will be able to speak in one voice, because most of these forums discuss the same concerns and the same issues.

The importance of adhering to international conventions and protocols can help. The forum of presiding officers can also assist. The IPU has started a forum where presiding officers meet at least twice a year.

Our parliaments are called upon to take a balanced approach in their efforts, plans and activities in co-operation with the United Nations agencies and concerned organisations. Given our role nationally, on the continent and in the world, I have no doubt that even today this debate will continue to improve relations within states in order to fight conflict and instability at all times. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon member. You had a lot of time still left over.

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I hope you won’t take this in any personal way, but I do note that you are in fact a participant in this debate. This is not directed at the hon Mahlangu-Nkabinde. There is a principle involved here. We accept the fact that this is a relatively uncontentious debate, but if you are a participant … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I will not be participating.

Mr M J ELLIS: Your name is on the speakers’ list. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes, it was with the understanding that if I were chairing, I would not be participating.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, thank you very much for that.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, South Africa is not an island. South Africa is part of Africa and it is part of the world. We must ask ourselves whether we are doing enough to bring about a world that values peace, freedom and human dignity. We must protect our hard-fought freedoms and accept that worldwide peace and security continue to be under threat.

The work of multilateral organisations to advance human rights and freedoms must go on and receive our support. We cannot turn our backs on the horrors of war. We must accept it as a responsibility to work together with other nations to prevent conflict and to bring about lasting peace. Many existing conflicts could be resolved through multilateral effort and global commitment. This is particularly urgent at the humanitarian level, and South Africa should consider how best we can assist within our means, particularly in Africa, and I stress “within our means”.

There are also at least three categories of conflict where our resolve will continue to be tested. These are wars between states, internal armed conflicts, and domestic and international terrorism. These cause tremendous human suffering, destroy families and communities, and they devalue human dignity.

These conflicts should not be ignored, neither should they be tolerated by the world. Too often, the international organisations fail to accept the responsibility of intervening. What must be remembered is that the experience of conflict today is not solely between conflicting soldiers; civilians, men, women, children, the old, young and weak are vulnerable and easy targets.

On our own continent the child soldier has become a haunting image of the massive task we face, not just in securing peace, but in creating a world where everyone is respected and protected.

Peace and security are also under threat by the proliferation of small arms, conventional weapons of war and weapons of mass destruction. We cannot be ambiguous about where our priorities lie when it comes to the trade, both legal and illegal, of weapons. South Africa must always take a principled stand in this regard.

There are three areas where future threats to security can be averted and peace can be achieved: firstly, by strengthening democracy worldwide; secondly, by promoting fundamental human rights; and thirdly, by supporting peaceful settlement of conflict.

There can be no doubt that a democratic system of government can protect against tyranny. But there is more to democracy than the basics of free and fair elections. We do democracy a great disservice if we ignore our responsibility to maintain its value by not allowing regimes that act undemocratically, or that come into power under extremely questionable circumstances, to claim that they are democracies. We mustn’t let them get away with it. We must encourage the principle that governments must be held accountable, not only by their own populations, but by the community of nations. There can be, and there should be, no tolerance of tyrants. There can be no support for countries that actively support terrorist groups or harbour criminals.

We face a serious security threat if we allow our goodwill and openness to be abused. We must not fall into the category of countries whose security and infrastructure are weak and easily exploited by terror groups.

As parliamentarians, we have to remain vigilant of the performance of our security agencies. Our police, intelligence and defence agencies, acting under the Constitution, must pursue policies that ensure the security of our people. If the state fails in that task, pious platitudes about world peace mean less than nothing. South Africa works for peace with multilateral organisations, and we must continue to do so, because peace and security is in our national interest. But we cannot bear the cost alone. Organisations, such as the United Nations, and also donor countries, need to recognise that our country has limited means and cannot afford the luxury of too many foreign adventures at the expense of our taxpayers.

The IPU, Inter-Parliamentary Union, is the international organisation which brings together the world’s parliaments and parliamentarians. Its mission is to foster peace and security through political dialogue, to promote democracy and respect for human rights and to contribute to the development of representative and effective legislative institutions. We very strongly support the IPU.

What is needed from us is a commitment to promoting fundamental human rights for all and the protection of each and every individual in the knowledge that the individual human being is the touchstone of value. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs I MARS: Deputy Chair, colleagues, the post-Cold-War world is a dangerous place, much more so than when two superpowers, the United States of America and the Soviet Union, effectively cancelled each other out. The restraints imposed on international actors during the Cold War and the sobering effects of a potential nuclear holocaust are no longer in place.

Today’s debate is not about whether the current unilateral agenda is right or wrong. It is about building international peace and security, and the fact that unilateral action has undermined and weakened multilateral organisations, like the United Nations, which has dire consequences for any effort at building lasting worldwide peace and security.

Historically and traditionally, the role of parliament has been to represent the people at a level separate from a national or state government. Parliaments provide a forum for the expression of the view of a democratic country’s people in both national and international issues. It is, therefore, an outlet for views that may not always be held or expressed publicly at national government level.

What role can parliaments play in assisting multilateral organisations to build international peace and security? Of course, they should continue to play their traditional role of making the views of their constituents known, but in the case of global peace and security, parliaments should also go further by putting direct pressure on international actors that are not committed to multilateralism, by putting pressure on their national governments to advance the cause of multilateralism, by making inputs to international peace and security initiatives, and by strengthening multilateral organisations through funding and active participation.

Building an international coalition for peace can only be achieved through collective actions by the world’s parliaments. It will be a daunting task as long as some countries believe that unilateral action represents a better and easier opportunity for the achievement of national policy objectives.

The solution lies in strengthening multilateral organisations to the point where they have real decision-making powers and real teeth to implement their decisions. If that could be achieved, the lone wolf states will have sufficient reason and confidence to entrust the achievement of their own national policy objectives to international multilateral organisations. World parliaments can help to make multilateral organisations stronger, but in addition to those actions mentioned above, they have to start with banishing the widely-held view that multilateral organisations, like the United Nations, are only so-called talk shops where obfuscation, obstructionism and a lack of creative ideas and decisive actions are the order of the day.

That will not be an easy task, but, if it could be accomplished, it would mean that some states will come around to the view that it is better to be inside the tent than outside it, to paraphrase a former American president. I thank you.

Ms F HAJAIG: Deputy Chairperson, colleagues and comrades, even before the attacks of September 11, 2001, the international community faced the historic challenge of mounting a collective effort to achieve security in a world scarred by atrocities and conflicts. To meet the challenge, parliaments will have to recognise that security and justice are mutually reinforcing goals that ultimately depend on the promotion of human rights, equality and social justice for all their people.

The principles established in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights demand accountability of those who violate these fundamental principles. These principles are not the exclusive preserve of one country or people, but the shared birthright of the whole world.

Parliaments need to take the lead in their countries and internationally by strengthening their criminal justice systems and taking responsible measures to fight terrorism and its effects. However, success will ultimately lie in their ability to deal with the causes of terrorism and other conflicts. Parliaments need to do more to expand and deepen democracy, to eliminate poverty, racism, prejudice and oppression, and to bring about a more equitable, just and compassionate world.

Without this kind of comprehensive political, social and security approach, the world may find it more difficult to fight terrorism and address conflicts - be they state to state, interstate or intrastate - or the occupation of sovereign states. The United Nations is still the most uniquely placed organisation which can provide a legal and moral framework for collective international action against terrorism and all forms of conflict.

Security requires a comprehensive strategy that seeks to address root causes. Violent conflict is best prevented, according to the Secretary- General of the United Nations, Mr Kofi Annan, by creating capable states with representative governance based on the rule of law, by widespread recognition that armed conflicts cannot be understood without reference to such root causes as poverty, political repression and uneven distribution of resources.

He continues: “Every step taken towards reducing poverty and achieving broad-based economic growth is a step towards conflict prevention. … Ignoring these underlying factors amounts to addressing the symptoms rather than the causes of deadly conflict.”

I shall endeavour to speak on the impact of armed conflict on women and girls; the disproportionate targeting of women and children in contemporary armed conflicts; the fact that women and children constitute the majority of all victims of conflict, and the majority of the world’s refugees and internally displaced persons; their vulnerability during conflict to all forms of violence, in particular sexual violence and exploitation including torture, rape, mass rape, forced pregnancies, sexual slavery and forced prostitution and trafficking; the political and symbolic significance of such acts; the increase in the risk of interpersonal violence including domestic violence as a result of the proliferation of small arms; the incalculable consequences of such violence on physical and mental health; the increased threat of contracting sexually transmitted infections; and systematic gender-based discrimination, which reduces their potential to protect themselves from such infections.

The loss of males in armed conflicts increases the responsibility of women and girls for family security, and the provision of food and shelter. Thus, the impact of conflict on women and girls calls for specific responses from the international community. One such response is Resolution 1325 of 2000 of the Security Council of the United Nations. Among its various clauses, it reaffirms the important role of women in the prevention and resolution of conflicts and in peace-building; and it stresses the importance of their equal participation and full involvement in all efforts for the maintenance and promotion of peace and security, as well as the need to increase their role in decision-making with regard to conflict prevention and resolution.

This resolution affirms the need to implement fully international humanitarian law and human rights law that protect the rights of women and girls during and after conflicts. It recognises the urgent need to mainstream a gender perspective in all peacekeeping operations according to the Windhoek Declaration of 2000. It urges member states to ensure increased representation of women at all decision-making levels in national, regional and international institutions and mechanisms for the prevention, management and resolution of conflict.

It further calls upon all parties to armed conflict to have respect for international law applicable to the rights and protection of women and girls, especially as civilians, in particular the obligations applicable to them under various protocols; and especially to bear in mind the relevant positions of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The Rome Statute will play a crucial role in securing the observance of the principles of international law in the interests of world peace and security by providing a forum to investigate and prosecute, when a state is genuinely unable or unwilling to do so, the commission of the worst crimes of international concern, namely, genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.

As you will recall, the United States of America refuses to accede to the Rome Statute that established the International Criminal Court. What are they afraid of? The Rome Statute further defines rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, enforced sterilisation and other forms of sexual violence both as war crimes and, when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, as crimes against humanity. It is imperative that all states accede to this protocol. Similarly, it is important that all states, including America, sign and ratify the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Coming to our continent, I will mention the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights, and the further Protocol on the Rights of Women in Africa. In 1997 the SADC heads of state signed the Declaration on Gender and Development, and, in 1998 the addendum: Prevention and Eradication of Violence Against Women and Children.

In July 2002 the Peace and Security Council of the African Union will be the standing decision-making organ for the prevention and resolution of conflicts. The objectives of the Peace and Security Council are to promote peace, security and stability in Africa in order to guarantee the protection and preservation of life and property, the wellbeing of the African people and their environment, as well as the creation of conditions conducive to sustainable development; to anticipate and prevent conflicts; to promote and implement peace-building and postconflict reconstruction, rehabilitation and reintegration activities to consolidate peace and prevent the resurgence of violence; to develop a common defence policy; and to promote and encourage democratic practices and governance of the rule of law.

In Africa we have seen horrendous wars, and we have also seen progress in the resolution of conflicts. The democratic elections in Rwanda can only be seen as a success after the genocidal war. Burundi is making progress; the DRC is on the road to stabilisation; Sierra Leone seeks peace; Liberia is trying to sort out its problems and so are Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia.

What kind of role can a Pan-African Parliament play in promoting peace and security? A direct and clear role for the Pan-African Parliament has not been defined in the protocol on peace and security of the AU. However, regional mechanisms and the Peace and Security Council are answerable to the commissions of the AU, albeit indirectly to the Pan-African Parliament. Article 3 enjoins the chairpersons of the commission to present to the Pan- African Parliament an annual report on the state of peace and security on the continent, and also to take all steps required to facilitate the exercise by the parliament of its powers in so far as it relates to the objectives of promoting security and stability.

Despite the limitation placed on the powers and functions of the Pan- African Parliament, Article 11 enables the Pan-African Parliament to promote peace on the continent. In its capacity as the representative of all African people, it will be in a better position to make a positive impact on influencing national parliamentary programmes by holding debates on peace, security, gender equity, economic development, good governance and poverty eradication.

The decision-making at all levels is dependent on governments and other organs of civil society mainstreaming a gender perspective in policy development and the implementation of programmes. Equality in decision- making is essential to the empowerment of women. Therefore, it is imperative that the role of African women in decision-making should be one which strives towards building a critical mass within Africa to shape the continent’s future. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson, I fully agree with the previous speaker. With the possible exceptions of Joan of Arc and Winnie Mandela, women are born peacemakers and indeed they can play an important role in promoting peace on the continent.

According to The Economist of 24 May 2003, a certain region in the DRC has been engaged in fighting for nearly 40 years. Rubaruba Zabuloni, a dwarfish 69-year-old with a crew cut and a black fur hat, leads a 7 000-man militia in the hills above Lake Tanganyika. In the 1960s he fought alongside Che Guevara. In later years the Soviet Union continued to supply him with arms, but up to this very day he is totally unaware of the demise of either and, like the DA, he keeps on fighting back.

This region is a typical example of what is happening in many parts of the African continent. The war in the Sudan, for example, started in 1955 and now, after 48 years, the end is still not in sight. Another startling fact is that the poorest one sixth of humanity endures four fifths of the world’s civil wars with devastating consequences. A typical civil war leaves a country 15% poorer than what it would have been otherwise, with perhaps 30% more people living in absolute poverty.

It is an understatement to say that this carnage on the continent must be stopped. Multilateral organisations can and must play an important role in this regard. Unfortunately, the UN does not live up to expectations. In the DRC, for example, the UN can barely raise half its mandated complement of 8 000 peacekeepers and spends almost half of its annual budget of $600 million just flying over the Congo’s vast roadless forests.

Earlier this year in Bunia, in the DRC, 700 UN peacekeepers were unable to prevent a massacre outside their barracks because their mandate was too feeble. A Congolese civilian was quoted as follows: “While the rebels are killing us, the UN takes notes and makes reports.” No wonder Uganda’s president Mr Museveni labelled the UN peacekeepers as dangerous tourists. This poor state of affairs can only be rectified when parliaments persuade their governments to support UN resolutions which empower the UN adequately to fulfil its mandate.

The AU and the different regional organisations can and must play a role in ensuring peace and stability on the continent. The protocol relating to the establishment of the Peace and Security Council of the AU merits special mention in this regard. An African Security Council and an African stand-by force, as envisaged in the protocol, will play a crucial role in bringing peace and security to the continent. Unfortunately, the protocol cannot enter into force because less than half of the member states of the AU have, to date, ratified it. Again, parliaments can play a role in persuading them to do just that. An African reaction force could have prevented the massacres in Burundi, in Rwanda, and in Bunia, to which I referred earlier.

Streeksorganisasies, soos byvoorbeeld die SAOG, kan en moet ook ‘n deurslaggewende rol speel om veiligheid en sekuriteit te bevorder. In dié opsig het Ecowas ‘n lofwaardige voorbeeld gestel deur stabiliteit te bring in Sierra Leone. Weer eens, die SAOG Protokol vir Politieke, Verdediging- en Veiligheidsamewerking het die vermoë om, veral in die DRK, die vrede te bewerkstellig, maar geen enkele land van die SAOG, ook nie Suid-Afrika, het hierdie protokol bekragtig nie. Ook hier kan dié Parlement ‘n belangrike rol speel om die leiding in die verband te neem, en ek vertrou dat die Parlement so gou as moontlik hierdie protokol sal bekragtig, want dit bly die enigste manier om multilaterale organisasies te help om konflikte op die kontinent te beëindig en sodoende ook ekonomiese en maatskaplike veiligheid te verseker. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Regional organisations, for example the SADC, can and must also play a decisive role to promote safety and security. In this regard Ecowas set a commendable example by establishing peace in Sierra Leone. Once again, the SADC Protocol on Politics, Defence and Security Co-operation has the capacity, especially in the DRC, to bring about peace, but not a single country of the SADC, not South Africa either, has ratified this protocol. Here as well this Parliament can play an important role by taking the lead in this regard, and I trust that Parliament will ratify this protocol as soon as possible, because it remains the only way to help multilateral organisations to end conflict on the continent and in so doing ensuring economic and social safety.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Chairperson, I agree that the IPU, of which we are a member, ought to play a critical role to promote peace, because often the executive in various countries do not always act in the interests of their citizenry in promoting peace, security and development.

Parliaments can play a role to pressure their own executives to desist from actions that can cause conflicts. However, before we talk about the role parliaments can play to strengthen multilateral forums, we must have a clear understanding of what our oversight role is in South Africa. When we understand the role of our Parliament here at home, we must play it. We have to practise what we preach here.

We are prone to pretending that we are the standard to be followed, when in fact we are still hesitant or too intimidated to assert Parliament’s role in our own national politics, as a stakeholder in deepening democracy and promoting social justice. We are yet to see Parliament in our country willing and prepared to play its oversight role in conflict with the executive, but in tandem with public interests. Although co-operation between the executive and Parliament is desirable, this should not be at the expense of constitutional values which we are obliged to observe.

The real question parliaments in parliamentary democracies, such as ours, ought to address urgently is how to strengthen parliament as an independent institution of the state. Are we ready to do what the British are doing - calling the executive head of the state to account for what the public perceives as an erroneous decision affecting national security? When we have reached the British Parliament’s degree of maturity and courage, we can talk about playing our role in strengthening multilateral forums.

It is important that we begin to debate, even in the next Parliament, how we can strengthen this Parliament’s role of oversight. Thank you.

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, threats to security are many and varied. That is why most countries, even those not at war, spend most of their budgets on their security forces and on equipping them. All countries are at risk. Whoever would have thought that a powerful country like the United States, with its wide oceans, sophisticated weaponry and international reputation, could have experienced what happened on September 11 in 2001?

In the wake of that unfortunate incident and in defiance of the United Nations, instead of seeking peace, President George Bush and Tony Blair of England declared war on Iraq. It is history that they have won the war, and, after all, it is a war they could not lose. The big question for now is: How will they win peace? Many American young men continue to lose their lives in Iraq, yet the war is said to be over. Blair is struggling for his political life because of the consequences of that war.

The time has come that parliamentarians learn that atomic bomb stockpiles are no guarantee of security. Parliamentarians will have to learn and accept that until greed, such as that for the Iraqi oil, and murder are removed from their hearts, there can be no peace or security. Parliaments should desist from spending lots of money on arms, because security and peace decline as security machinery expand.

Nowadays, parliaments around the world, even those of people who in the past were averse to the use of the words “terrorist” and “terrorism”, have come to accept those concepts in their legislative vocabulary, and they are at pains to put together laws against terrorism in their quest for peace. Governments have to be at peace with themselves, and feel secure all the time in their quest for peace and security.

Parliaments have to play the role they are instituted for. They have to serve as watchdogs and not lapdogs with regard to governments. A parliament worth its salt will not hesitate to call into question the performance, programmes and policies of the executive. If parliaments can refrain from compromising on and conforming to issues raised by the executive, we can have a peaceful world. I thank you.

Mr T JEEBODH: Deputy Chairperson, fellow comrades and colleagues, it is indeed an honour to stand here and be counted as a proud South African. As is customary of those who deliver their maiden speeches, their knees wobble and lumps appear in their throats. But for those who were disfranchised, it is indeed a special moment.

I now move on to the business of the day - the issues that touch the hearts and minds of every human being, namely peace and security. In Hinduism it is believed that in the cycle of reincarnation, the highest reward of life is to be born a human being. It is certainly a high status, but do we respect the status that is bestowed upon us? In our quest for power, wealth, greed and supremacy, we as humans have lowered ourselves. Since time immemorial, mankind has been at loggerheads with its fellow beings.

The First World War brought the casualties of millions of dead and displaced people, along with disease and severe hardship. Only then did some leaders, one being President Woodrow Wilson of the United States, agitate for a world body at which humans and nations could sit and discuss issues before reverting to war and genocide. Thus the League of Nations was born. It did not have real teeth, but the initiative had been taken. Then came the Second World War. The miseries, deaths and hardships compared to that of the First World War were tenfold. The need for a world body with real teeth and powers became so much more apparent. Thus the United Nations was born in 1945.

Now, 58 years later, the United Nations still has the initial charters in place, but much has changed since then - politically, socially and economically. The structure of the United Nations has to change. The question of the permanent members has been on the agenda for a long time, but very little that is concrete has emanated. With some democracies flourishing in the countries which obtained independence from their previous colonial masters, the need for collective bodies in Africa arose: the OAU or the African Union, and SADC.

Our own President Mbeki, a key architect of the formation of the AU and SADC and its economic and recovery programme, leads the way. From being a pariah state to being a world leader, the ANC, its Government and South Africa have led the way for the rest of Africa to follow. From being a terrorist country, which not only terrorised its own people but a host of sub-Saharan countries, the ANC, from 1994, has made South Africa and its people readily acceptable to the whole world. Our sportsmen can now compete in world events, our finished goods grace the entire world, our flowers adorn Chelsea, and even the opposition parties with far right views can sit and debate in this Chamber without any fear. Now, does that not tell you something? [Applause.]

The United Nations can effect the many changes needed to bring about peace and security. Let there be structural changes and let policy-making powers be granted to the General Assembly, where recommendations made by the General Assembly have legal and practical effects and where law-making has capacity. Then, and only then, can rogue countries and criminals, and statesmen found guilty of transgressing human rights, pilfering from state coffers and committing genocide, be brought to book.

There are those economists who stated that the growth rate in the 80s and the 90s in this country was between 4% and 8%. But this was a false assertion, because South Africa was divided into little, self-governing Bantustans. However, since gaining independence and democracy in 1994, no industrialist or businessman has lost his or her property through nationalisation. South Africa even honours the apartheid debt which P W Botha and De Klerk used to purchase arms to suppress internal dissent.

Like the Chinese proverb that a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, this country has started that journey. We are not there, but we most certainly have started. The various groupings throughout the world

• the African Union for Africa, the European Union for Europe, the Asia- Pacific Rim, the Eastern Asian Union, the Commonwealth and many others - aspire to the same objectives.

South Africa’s vision for peace, security and governance is embodied in Nepad and the African Recovery Programme. The poverty and backwardness of Africa and other developing nations stand in stark contrast to the prosperity of the developed world. The continued marginalisation of Africa from the globalisation process and the social exclusion of the vast majority of its people constitute a serious threat to global stability. The initiative calls for the reversal of the abnormal situation by changing the relationship that underpins it. Africans and developing countries are no longer appealing for the further entrenchment of dependency through aid, nor marginal concessions, nor handouts. We are convinced that a historic opportunity presents itself to end the scourge of underdevelopment that afflicts Africa, the so-called Third World and developing countries.

The resources that are required, namely capital, technology and human skills, to launch a global war on poverty and underdevelopment exist in abundance and are within our grasp. What is required to mobilise these resources and to use them properly are bold and imaginative leadership, general commitment to a sustained effort of human upliftment and poverty eradication, as well as a new global partnership based on joint responsibility and mutual interest.

Meaningful economic activity is impossible under conditions of armed conflict. It is also inhibited by the existence of states, either captured by narrow private interests or lacking in capacity to deliver on their developmental mandates. Whilst commitments to peace and security, democracy, human rights and sound economic governance must be seen as preconditions for a programme of renewal, there will continue to be a need for constant vigilance, consolidation and a strengthening of capacity.

If peace and security are to lead to sustained growth and development, the strengthening of the capacity of the state to fulfil its responsibilities is of the utmost urgency. Those responsibilities include poverty eradication and development, and ensuring democracy, popular participation, human rights and respect for the rule of law, thus creating a conducive environment for private-sector mobilisation and for responding appropriately to the process of globalisation. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, national parliaments are, or should be, pyramids of democracy dotted all over the world, representing the hope of the survival of humanity. They therefore have a clear role to play in the realisation of the best of humanity’s dreams.

Humankind is capable of great achievements, like flying to the moon or even walking on it. It is, unfortunately, also capable of unbelievable follies. The unforgettable implosion of the magnificent World Trade Centre twin towers on 11 September was a dramatic display of how quickly and tragically our global village can fold up.

Other less dramatic but equally tragic events include, inter alia, the South African apartheid holocaust, and the unbelievable African carnages in Rwanda, Burundi, Ethiopia and Liberia which claimed millions or billions of innocent lives. We have recently had religious and ethnic cleansing episodes in Eastern Europe, Pakistan and India, and the Palestinian-Israeli War has desecrated the biblical Holy Land. Then the USA-UK Iraqi War, against the dictates of the United Nations, dashed the hopes of the civilised world by causing the institution which was the remaining hope of the civilised world to haemorrhage.

The Business Day yesterday had a headline which read: “US$75 billion needed to rebuild Iraq.” This shameful and scandalous misuse of scarce resources happens at a time when the poor are hungry and have no money to fast-track research on HIV/Aids. Parliaments like our own are watchdogs of processes that lead to conflict situations. Democratic processes should be watched in our own country. As the general elections approach, we should ensure that we level the playing fields and encourage our neighbours, like Zimbabwe, to do the same. Free and fair elections should not be glib talk. We should ensure that real democracy happens. [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Igama lamakhosikazi. [In the name of women.] Deputy Chair, as history is made with the passing of the clock, rivalry and unrest have left their mark on each state. The world stands with its own dilemma, watching itself crumble as man violently tries to attain his wants, desires and what he individually believes is owed to him.

When we look at our newspapers and at ourselves, we see apartheid, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, al Qaeda, terrorism, Indonesia, Liberia, the Sudan, Nigeria, Korea - there are too many to mention; I can go on and on. When we look at our newspapers, it is global conflict and its effects socially, economically and politically that fill the pages. Global unrest and conflicts have major repercussions on our global state. At times, this is like a monopoly game in which larger First World countries use opportunities to maintain their stance.

It is an unfortunate reality that international peace and security is much more like a game. Poverty, one of the world’s largest problems, in line with the population explosion, the horrific results of the deadly HIV/Aids pandemic, malaria and TB and the many other socioeconomic imbalances make global peace a difficult task to achieve. But it is by debating the subject that we voice our concern and take the first step in working towards global peace and security.

The MF notes that in many conventions and conferences the world attempts to work towards this, but also notes that although many countries pledge their commitment to human rights, they seldom religiously uphold their commitment. This reminds me of the last words of our great Mahatma Gandhi. When his life was leaving his body, he said: “Peace, peace, peace, may peace be with the world.”

The MF does not want to focus this debate on any one country as an example, but feels rather that the subject of international peace and security should be looked at in terms of South Africa, and whether we maintain international security for our people with the global politics that magnetises the world. International peace and security, the MF feels, is a global responsibility that begins with each individual. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. [Applause.]

Mr M M CHIKANE: Chairperson, since the advent of democracy in our country, and after overcoming the legacy of the past that made us the polecats of the world, the new agenda has to be to pursue, with tenacity and vigour, ridding our country of poverty, unemployment, social inequality and hunger in the country of plenty. To succeed in this, we have to know our strengths and weaknesses. We must use the best instruments, from all those who know that this is our only home, to resolve these discrepancies speedily and with determination.

The world cannot find us. We should go out there and discover the world, and join hands with our citizens in contestation of ideas. The International Parliamentary Union is one of such fortresses that can echo President Mbeki’s opening parliamentary address when he said that there are two worlds. And, short of maintaining those hostilities, we should rather increase the size of the cake.

The two worlds must collide to form one strong, formative force that can withstand all negative forces that are imposed by our not-so-distant past. We must forge ahead as a united and single-minded community, and pronounce ourselves as South Africans. Let us not only find common cause amongst ourselves, but with the likeminded that constitute the IPU.

Let all nations resolve, as at the 103rd conference in Switzerland, Geneva, to uphold a section of the declaration which reads thus, and I quote:

… considering that parliamentarians, as the representatives of the people, play an important role in promoting the dialogue and strengthening the cordial ties between nations and peoples in the political, economic and cultural fields with the view of attaining global stability and peace …

As an exporting country, we continually open doors in Africa and elsewhere. The IPU cannot but remain a solid platform for this purpose. Our agenda, the New Partnership for Africa’s Development, which has become our embryonic cord, will remain a pipe dream if we do not participate in such organisations. The motor industry, which has become a bastion of job creation, will grind to a halt if momentum is lost in continually breaking new ground.

Our resolve to put the question of the girl-child and women has won us many friends. All we said is what was said, but it was Mandela’s and Mbeki’s country endorsing it which carried our colleagues in the African continent and the world over.

Under the leadership of our most able Deputy Speaker, Ms Baleka Mbete, that team spirit of being truly South African reigned in the corridors of the Chilean chambers. The very-often disjointed discord in the African group produced the melody that Africa’s time has arrived.

The respect and honour bestowed on us made us truly part of you all, in this House. Mahlangu, Borman, Bakker and Van der Merwe were your voices. All that brought us closer to the dance of what used to be a distant sound.

We should not and we cannot let go of the resolve that this is an African century and we are the players, not spectators. Thank you. [Applause.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, we live in an increasingly changing world order. The globalisation of violence currently takes the form of global versus regional conflicts which ought to be managed by the numerous multilateral organisations in order to ensure peace and security.

The United Nations system, the most representative international forum, is basically state-centred with a total of approximately 200 states being represented. Regional organisations such as the African Union and, to a certain extent, SADC, Ecowas and Ecomog indicate that regions are taking charge of their future. It is the interaction between the United Nations system and the regional organisations, with parliaments playing an important role, which will determine whether success will be obtained in building an international coalition for change. Ensuring peace and security should include acting against cross-border threats to peace and stability, transnational organised crime and terrorism in particular. Parliaments acting within subregional organisations, as well as regional policing structures, should lead to an information exchange and full participation as agents in ensuring co-ordinated efforts in the fight against violence.

Parliaments have an important role to play in ensuring that the combined and co-ordinated approach of the subregional and regional organisations and the United Nations system leads to a renewed enforcement of a co-ordinated effort to achieve effective border control, firearms control and, ever- increasingly, corruption control.

Parliament has a duty of maintaining stability in a democracy within the changing environment by, particularly, promoting human rights development. It is important to note that solutions to peace and security issues must be tailormade with sustainable and long-lasting consequences. It is only with the co-operation of Parliament, within the various mentioned structures, through which it will be ensured that leading individuals do not line their bank accounts, and that they separate business and government in order to preserve Government’s role within the parliamentary system. Politicians and policy-makers should focus, in the long term, on wealth-creating benefits which will ensure peace and security.

The growth of a world economy leads to a proliferation of global and transnational threats that transcend state borders. Parliament’s role is to ensure that the recognition of basic human rights, regardless of national boundaries and internal laws, prevails; and to prevent the proliferation of migration, population expansion, disease and famine.

South Africa’s participation in peace operations under the auspices of the United Nations, the African Union and SADC, in terms whereof approximately 2 900 South African service personnel are currently deployed, indicates support for regional and international organisations such as the United Nations and the African Union. However, it is Parliament’s duty and function to be fully informed of all facts, dangers and risks when supporting such bold measures.

The decision to determine whether to embark on a particular mission requires consultation, co-ordination and effective decision-making by the South African Parliament. Parliament is pivotal in ensuring continued support from the South African population regarding deployment in terms of regional and international mandates. Therefore, a more inclusive approach towards Parliament should be followed by the executive and, in particular, the President in ensuring that Parliament is thoroughly informed as to the details, risks, costs as well as duration of the period regarding the personnel to be deployed.

A one-page letter that appeared in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports is, with respect, not good enough. Parliament should be comprehensively briefed, or, at least, its Joint Standing Committee on Defence, on all intended missions before the actual deployment takes place. Stability, peace, security and building an international coalition for peace are premised on proper and informed decision-making by members of parliaments, acting within the mentioned subregional, regional and international institutions. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D J SITHOLE: Chairperson and hon members, peace is a precondition for development. It is therefore an objective we should all strive for.

As we discuss this, we should do so by paying our respects to those who died in the bombing of the US embassy in Kenya, praying for those who perished on September 11 in the USA; and we should also pray for the women and children who died in Tanzania. We should not forget those who died in an illegal and illegitimate war on Iraq or Palestinian children who are exposed to missile bombings on a daily basis. We should continue to work for the safety of the children and women of Israel.

I had the opportunity to visit the August 7th Memorial Park in Nairobi built in honour of the innocent people who died because they were perceived by those who commanded weapons as a legitimate target. Recently, I also had the opportunity to visit the Genocide Memorial Site in Rwanda, where almost a million innocent people were killed. The numbers of people who are killed compel all peace-loving people of the world to confront the challenge imposed on us by those who prefer war instead of peace.

The outcome of the Iraqi war is an indication that war does not produce conditions for co-existence for those who are locked in a confrontational frame of mind.

Parliament is currently engaged in discussions to formulate a legal instrument to fight terrorism. We hope that the UN discussions will result in a definition that will be all-encompassing. As we commit ourselves to fighting against terrorism, we should avoid temptations of the powerful to decide who they want to declare a terrorist and who not. [Applause.] It is the UN that is entrusted with the responsibility of our collective security and, therefore, it must be reinforced to ensure that it can protect us all.

Building UN organs to enable them to enforce peace and co-existence among people is a critical task that not only faces political leaders but mankind as a whole. International organisations can only accomplish what their member states enable them to accomplish. This issue brings us to the critical task of restructuring the UN and, specifically, the UN Security Council. Therefore we should ensure that we all subject ourselves to the authority of the UN, not to the authority of individuals, irrespective of their power.

The war on terrorism will not be won unless we address the fundamental problems that create conditions conducive for it to thrive. Poverty is a breeding ground for those who advocate extremism. It cannot be right that developed nations spend US$3 per day for a cow and only US$1 for people in poor countries. We will only win the fight against terrorism if we confront the challenge of poverty, underdevelopment and marginalisation of certain sections of our community.

In ensuring that peace and security exist in the world, we must build an international coalition for peace. However, we must ensure that the nature and format of such a coalition serve the interests of peace, and not the interests of warmongers. Civil society must play a critical role in ensuring that we are not led to war by those who find it difficult to live in peace and who find solutions to problems of the world by declaring wars and subscribing to the doctrine of regime changes.

Peace and security should be what every state, government and individual must work for. Peace and security should be for everybody, not only for the few powerful. It should also be for the poverty-stricken rural poor. It is with pride that, since the ANC took over power in this country, South Africa has committed itself and has worked tirelessly to bring about peace, not only on the continent but in the world. This commitment to peace is enunciated in our Stellenbosch conference resolutions. The ANC committed itself to opposing aggressive unilateralism as adopted by some Western countries in fighting the threat of terrorism.

As we reject unilateralism, we equally oppose all forms of terrorism, including state terrorism, because we believe that the solution to deal with this lies with multilateral structures and should be conducted under the aegis of the UN. It is the multilateral structures that can help to produce peace for all.

The work of South Africa on the continent will be enhanced by the ratification of the treaty establishing the Peace and Security Council charged with the responsibility of bringing peace to the continent. This organ will provide us with the opportunity to intensify the work we are doing in the Great Lakes region, which is that of building conditions for peace and development.

Sending our troops to the Great Lakes is in line with our endeavours and desire to create conditions for economic development, and is a good thing to do. It has been an issue among many commentators that we are spending a lot of resources on the African continent. This concern is informed by a lack of appreciation of the fact that our existence is linked to the continent.

As South Africa, we cannot extricate ourselves from the difficulties presented by poverty and underdevelopment on the continent. We are, in the first instance, African, and therefore it is our duty to work for peace and prosperity for the people on the African continent.

As legislatures, we must look at ourselves and locate the role we must play in building a peace movement. We should ensure that the UN protocol that deals with issues of justice is ratified. Yes, there are those who claim to be democrats, but they are allergic to subjecting themselves to the rule of law, and they are prepared to do anything, even using money, to force other states to help them not to subject themselves to the international rule of law. [Applause.] Looking at the question paper this afternoon and the questions that were asked by members, I was disappointed by members who raised one issue and talked about another at the podium. If one looks at the question raised by the hon Gibson, the follow-up questions that he raised and what he said at this podium, one will find a naked contradiction to what he supposedly stands for. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

They regard themselves as not being part of the continent’s problems. They regard themselves as not being responsible for ensuring that there is peace on this continent. It is important for us not to play politics during question time but to genuinely state what we are committed to, which is building peace. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 18:15. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. Membership of Committees:

 (1)    The following members  have  been  appointed  to  serve  on  the
     Committee mentioned, viz:


     Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence Legislation:


     African National Congress:


     Abram, S
     Bloem, D V
     Booi, M S
     Cwele, S C
     Daniels, N
     Goniwe, M T
     Landers, L T
     Lobe, M C
     Sosibo, J E
     Van der Merwe, S C
     Zondo, R P


     Democratic Alliance:


     Jankielsohn, R
     Schalkwyk, P J


     Inkatha Freedom Party:


     Ferreira, E T


     New National Party:


     Olckers, M E


     African Christian Democratic Party:


     Green, L M


     Freedom Front:


     Groenewald, P J
     National Action:


     Aucamp, C


     Azanian Peoples' Organisation:


     Nefolovhodwe, P J

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 Report and Financial  Statements  of  the  Education  Labour  Relations
 Council for 2002 [RP 85-2002].

1. The Minister of Minerals and Energy:

 Report and Financial Statements of the South African Diamond Board  for
 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
 Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 127-2003].

1. The Minister of Health:

 Report and Financial Statements of Vote No 16 -  Department  of  Health
 for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 151-2003].

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of Vote No 11 -  Public  Service
     Commission for 2002-2003, including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 107-2003].


 (b)    Report of the Public Service Commission on the Evaluation of the
     Service Delivery Innovation of the  Creation  of  Agencies  at  the
     Department of Transport for 2003 [RP 61-2003].


 (c)    Report of the Public Service Commission on the Evaluation of the
     Department of Transport and it's Agencies for 2003 [RP 62-2003].


 (d)    Report of the Public Service Commission on the Evaluation of the
     National Housing Subsidy Scheme for 2003 [RP 64-2003].


 (e)     Report  of  the  Public  Service  Commission  on  the   Citizen
     Satisfaction Survey: Overview Report 2001-2002 [RP 109-2003].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

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