THURSDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:04.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

         DATE FOR COMPLETION OF TASK OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON
                      PUBLIC AUDITING FUNCTION

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That, with reference to the resolution adopted by the House on 24 June 2003, the Ad Hoc Committee on Public Auditing Function is to complete its task by no later than 26 September 2003.

Agreed to.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE -
          APPOINTMENT OF INSPECTOR-GENERAL OF INTELLIGENCE

Dr S C CWELE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is proud to recommend to Parliament the name of Mr Zolile Thando Ngcakani for the position of Inspector-General of Intelligence. This position of Inspector-General of Intelligence was established in terms of section 210 of the Constitution. The inspector-general is appointed in terms of section 7 of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act 40 of 1994. The functions of the inspector-general, among others, are to monitor compliance of the services with the Constitution, laws and policies on intelligence and counter-intelligence; to review intelligence and counter- intelligence activities of the services; and to receive and investigate complaints from members of the public and members of the services on alleged maladministration, abuse of power and transgressions of laws and policies.

The previous inspector-general resigned on 18 February 2002 for private and personal reasons. The process of the appointment of the inspector-general involves the following. The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence calls for public nominations which are followed by public interviews of short- listed candidates. The JSCI then recommends a name to the National Assembly for approval. The National Assembly must approve that name with a two- thirds majority of its members. The approved name is then referred to the President who is responsible for the final appointment.

The JSCI received 46 applications, considered them and held public interviews with six candidates. The JSCI is proud to recommend that Mr Zolile Thando Ngcakani be considered for appointment as the inspector- general. I understand that Mr Ngcakane is sitting somewhere in the public gallery with some members. Could he stand up for the benefit of those who do not know him. [Applause.]

Mr Zolile Ngcakani is a world-renowned water civil engineer with vast experience in intelligence. While in exile, he furthered his studies in Russia, Kenya and Canada. He worked as an engineer in Kenya and lectured at the civil engineering department of the University of Nairobi. He worked for many years in Canada as a senior review engineer who also advised the Canadian government on waste water management and industrial water treatment projects.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Could hon members please settle down.

Dr S C CWELE: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In 1994, he served in the SA Water Research Commission while subsequently seconded to the Presidential Review Commission for the Transformation and Reform of the Public Service. In this capacity, he was exposed to the new ethos of driving the Public Service.

In 1996, he was appointed head of ministerial services in the Ministry for Intelligence. In this position, he provided management and administrative services in support of the Minister. During this period, he also headed several committees and task teams. From November 2001 to date, Mr Ngcakane has been acting as the chief executive director of the national communications centre.

I move the acceptance of the report before this House. Thank you. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, in terms of section 7(1)(b) of Act 40 of 1994, the appointment of the inspector-general must be approved by the National Assembly through a resolution supported by at least two thirds of its members, as the hon Chairperson of the JSCI has already said.

Although a division has not been demanded, it must be established that two thirds of the members support the recommendation made in the report. And, therefore, the bells will have to be rung for five minutes to alert members that the question will now be put for decision.

During division:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: As hon members know, cellphones are not allowed.

Question put: That Mr Zolile Thando Ngcakani be recommended for appointment as Inspector-General of Intelligence.

The support of two thirds of the members of the House being required in terms of section 7(1)(b) of Act 40 of 1994, members recorded their support as follows:

AYES - 290: Abrahams, T; Ainslie, A R; Andrew, K M; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W; Bruce, N S; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Doman, W P; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser- Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J van R; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Lockey, D; Louw, S K; Lowe, C M; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madikiza, G T; Maduna, P M; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleke, D K; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meruti, V; Middleton, N S; Millin, T E; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moorcroft, E K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Redcliffe, C R; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Routledge, N C; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schalkwyk, P J; Schmidt, H C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, R S; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; September, R K; Seremane, W J; Sibande, M P; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, P; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Tarr, M A; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

The required support having been obtained, question agreed to.

Mr Zolile Thando Ngcakani accordingly recommended for appointment as Inspector-General of Intelligence.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The President will be informed that Mr Zolile Thando Ngcakani is recommended for appointment as Inspector-General of Intelligence. [Applause.]

Although we await the President’s endorsement of our recommendation, perhaps we should take this opportunity to congratulate Mr Ngcakani, a member of our society who obviously has conducted himself as a worthy person. [Applause.]

                   PUBLIC PROTECTOR AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Those who are leaving the House, please do so quietly. There is no list of speakers on this matter, however, the DA has requested an opportunity to make a declaration of vote. I now grant them that opportunity.

Declarations of vote:

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA will not support the amendments as proposed. The ANC has one, and only one, objective with these amendments, and that is to lower the standards for the appointment of an individual to the office of the Public Protector.

This is in order to enable it to appoint serving ANC MPs. I say this because after having served on the ad hoc committee for the appointment of the Public Protector, earlier this year, and having interviewed approximately 20 candidates, the ANC appointed, yes, a serving ANC MP, after having to call for new nominations for the position when it decided that the first or original list of candidates were not suitable for the position, and reopened the nominations.

The amendments proposed by the NCOP widen the requirements for the appointment of a Public Protector by determining that individuals should have ``acquired any combination of experience’’ as an MP, advocate, attorney or lecturer in law of at least ten years. The DA strongly supports the principle that legal knowledge is an important prerequisite for being appointed as a Public Protector.

The current amendment enables MPs, in all probability ANC MPs, who have no, and I repeat no, legal knowledge whatsoever to be appointed whether they have one, five or ten years experience as an MP with no qualification as to his or her experience gained in Parliament, for example in the Portfolio Committees on Justice and Constitutional Development and on Safety and Security, or related safety and security committees.

The DA will not endorse the ANC’s attempt to fill important positions in Chapter 9 institutions, requiring absolute independence, with ANC MPs, in accordance with the ANC cadre redeployment policy, creating an ANC hegemonous society controlled by the ANC. The DA will not and cannot therefore support the proposed amendments. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr G SOLOMON: Deputy Speaker, the ANC believes that the Public Protector, as well as Chapter 9 institutions, as stated in the Constitution, is subject only to the Constitution and the law, and accountable to this National Assembly.

I do not see the reason for the objection of the DA, because any person nominated, despite the amendment made by the NCOP, will still have to go through a process of nomination. If the person is nominated the person will still have to submit a CV. There is an ad hoc committee of this Parliament that will then go through that, and that person will then be recommended by this Parliament, and that name will then go to the President.

I can’t see why the DA don’t regard the members sitting here as fit and proper persons for any high position in the structures of Government. Or do they believe that the members of the IFP, here, are not fit and proper persons? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do any other parties wish to make declarations? None. Are there any objections to the Bill being approved? Objection from the DA, hon Lee. [Interjections.] No, I am asking whether there’s any objection to the Bill being approved, and I want to recognise hon Lee.

Mr T D LEE: The DA wants its objection to be noted, please Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The objection of the DA will be recorded. Any other objections? No other objections, and therefore the Bill will be sent to the President for assent.

Bill approved (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

     JUDICIAL OFFICERS (AMENDMENT OF CONDITIONS OF SERVICE) BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

There was no debate.

Bill approved.

 CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HOME AFFAIRS AND
 PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT - EASTERN CAPE STUDY TOUR

Mr E SALOOJEE: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, my apologies for being late. The purpose of our visit to the Eastern Cape was parliamentary oversight. Most specifically, to oversee the process of applying for and issuing identity documents, and the registration of births. The critical role that IDs and birth certificates play in the speedy and efficient processing of social security grant appplications was of particular importance to the members of the Portfolio Committee on Social Development.

Officials from both the Departments of Home Affairs and of Social Development assured members that, as far as they were concerned, everything was in place for this visit. Furthermore, members were led to believe that all stakeholders in the areas to be visited had been consulted, and were ready and expecting the parliamentary delegation.

However, it is not an exaggeration to say that members were appalled by the conditions found at most of the offices of both Home Affairs and Social Development in the Eastern Cape. The areas that we visited are struggling with the legacy of the old administration, having been incorporated into the government of the Eastern Cape. Apart from the fact that corruption and maladministration were rife in the former Ciskei and Transkei, the realignment and amalgamation of government departments created its own problems.

In many cases, the Department of Social Development inherited poorly equipped offices and personnel who had a lack of capacity. These factors make it very difficult for Government to deliver an efficient service in the Eastern Cape. We encountered the physical manifestations of these serious problems on our oversight visit, and I wish to highlight a few critical areas.

Firstly, the large number of people who applied for services and grants on offer indicates that there is a big need for these services and social grants. Social assistance has been recognised as one of the most important poverty alleviation mechanisms in our country. It is important that administrative problems and issues do not prevent people from exercising their constitutionally guaranteed rights to access social assistance grants. It is especially important that vulnerable and poor people in the Eastern Cape, and everywhere in our country, are treated in a way that allows them to benefit from the rights and freedoms that we have fought so hard to secure for them.

It was unfortunate to witness the lack of respect with which staff of both departments treated some of the clients. An example, which is one of many to be found in our report of the point mentioned above, was our visit to the Umtata Home Affairs office on 5 May. There was no sense of urgency on the part of officials serving the public. Not even the presence of the parliamentary delegation could spark a sense of urgency. It was also reported that officials were accepting bribes in order to prioritise certain people.

Secondly, staff in the Home Affairs offices appeared to be multiskilled and seemed unwilling to assist their colleagues when there was a backlog of work. The latter situation seemed to occur even when the staff members in question had very few tasks to perform. This rigid and narrow thinking of officials impacts negatively on the delivery of IDs, birth certificates and access to social grants.

Our visit to the Mqanduli Home Affairs office illustrates this perfectly in that birth certificates were available to be distributed, but there was no official to do the distribution. Our delegation was told that only one person was responsible for issuing the birth certificates, and when that person was absent, nobody could issue them. This is obviously an unacceptable situation. I appeal to the Minister of Home Affairs and our Government to continue to attend to this situation.

Other instances that struck us were that both Home Affairs and Social Development offices were regularly ill-equipped, and that conducive working conditions rarely prevailed. The physical state of offices was appalling. Many offices were situated in structures that were utterly unfit to serve as offices, and where offices were structurally sound, they were dirty and in need of paint and generally dilapidated.

However, it would be unfair to only emphasise the negative aspects of our visit. For example, the Social Development office at Mqanduli was very well organised on the day, as were the Home Affairs officials on the day we visited the Ntabankulu Town Hall.

Allow me to refer briefly to the recommendations contained in our report. The most important recommendation is that officials from both departments must adhere to the Batho Pele principles - we must put our people first.

Furthermore, the disturbing divide between what both the Departments of Social Development and of Home Affairs say, and the reality at grassroot level should be eradicated. If nothing is done in this regard, we could be faced with a possibility that would-be voters and beneficiaries will be denied their constitutional rights to access social security benefits and to vote.

In this regard, it is encouraging to note the decisive action by the Minister of Social Development and his officials in terminating the service delivery contract with Cash Paymaster Services. This is indicative of the commitment by our Government to eradicating the corruption and poor service that led to the tragic death of one recipient.

It has unfortunately come to our attention that a member of the opposition has been quoted in the Daily Despatch as saying that as many as five people had died as a result of such poor service delivery. It is highly questionable that the opposition exploits such tragedies for political gain. When scrutinising the press of that period, we can’t find such information.

All of the above must be seen in the context of the overhaul of our social assistance system and the establishment of a national social security agency. Our portfolio committee is currently engaged with legislation to establish such an agency, and in this process, members of the committee draw on information obtained from oversight visits in order to enrich this legislation. This ensures that the provisions in the draft statute are informed by practical experience.

We see the establishment of the Social Security Agency as one of the most important steps in addressing the problems of service delivery in respect of social grants in the Eastern Cape, and the rest of our country. The main objective of the agency will be to ensure the efficient and effective management of administration and payment of social assistance. This will ensure that there is equal access to social security for all citizens. The agency will be responsible for implementing uniform norms and standards with regard to service delivery in the country.

The establishment of this national agency will present serious challenges for the Government. One of these relates to the transfer of staff from provinces to the agency. In this process we must ensure that personnel are not simply transferring with them the patterns of inefficiency that have emerged in many cases.

Secondly, we must ensure that the transfer to the agency does not impact … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, we are now nine years into our new democracy. We often use the slogan, referred to by my chairperson, of Batho Pele - putting the people first. If this report is an accurate reflection of the situation on the ground, then, really, the reality is somewhat different. There are dirty offices, there are chronic delays in serving people, there are shortages of staff, beneficiaries have to stand outside in all types of weather, there are queues, there are unhygienic conditions and, in places, there is bribery and corruption. These are some of the things that the joint delegation found in the Eastern Cape.

However, not only did the joint delegation find this distressing state of affairs, but the Public Service Commission confirmed these findings. The chairperson of the commission says, and we need to listen carefully: ``A critical dimension of any performance measurement system is an assessment of the satisfaction levels amongst the citizens to whom the service is being delivered.’’ Their report assessed both strengths and weaknesses.

In referring to the Department of Social Development, the report revealed that the following needed attention: the attitude and behaviour of staff towards beneficiaries; the lack of easy access for people with disabilities; the shortage of toilets, shelter, seating and first aid at most facilities; and dissatisfaction with the help desk.

However, I don’t want to be biased here as citizens expressed their satisfaction with the following: they were able to understand the language that the staff in the department used; staff kept their details confidential; payment points were easily accessible via public transport; the department’s offices were conveniently located for them to register; and they were able to contact the department telephonically.

Now, in the foreword to the current strategic plan, the Minister of Social Development refers to new gains made since 2000. He says, and I quote:

Important amongst these initiatives is the massive mobilisation around the registration of social grants as announced by the President in his state of the nation address. This mobilisation must be accompanied by significant improvements in the administration of social grants by both the national and provincial departments of social development.

If we are going to address the problems in administering these grants, the Departments of Social Development and of Home Affairs will have to co- operate with each other much more closely. It has become very apparent that Home Affairs simply does not have enough money to do this work. And it was very reassuring to hear the President say today that the department would not be short of resources, but it cannot issue IDs and birth certificates to enable people to register to receive the grants.

The end result of the lack of resources and the bungling is that thousands of elderly and disabled people and children are just not getting the money the Department of Finance is making available to them. Now, this is tragic. It is the very point at which our well-intentioned plans to alleviate poverty come unstuck. We have fancy plans on glossy paper, but they are not getting from there to the poor people, for example of the Western Cape.

Despite having almost trebled the number of beneficiaries in the country since 1998 - and that is good - only 42% of eligible children are receiving the child support grants. Now, that is bad. It is tragic, and it is scandalous.

The portfolio committee invited the MEC of social development in the Eastern Cape, Ms Moerane-Mamase, and the company responsible for paying out grants to meet with the committee to find out where the problems were, and how we could assist in improving delivery. The MEC did not even bother to arrive. Now that’s how seriously she viewed the problems. People were dying in the queues in her province, but that was of no consequence to her. And the official that she sent in her place merely passed the buck to Cash Paymaster Services, the company involved.

The good news in all this mess was that a monitoring committee had been set up. The bad news was that it didn’t monitor and that the MEC didn’t appear. The monitoring committee didn’t monitor, and the people were left in their poverty.

This committee must be commended for both their oversight visit and the honesty with which they put the report together. But if the people are ever to be put first, the recommendations in this report must be transformed into action. The DA is committed to doing all in its power to assist in achieving this. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M M MAUNYE: Chairperson, in March 2002 the Minister of Home Affairs had this to say during the strategic planning workshop of the Department of Home Affairs, and I quote:

Tangible goals and clear performance indicators will provide us with better tools to identify where we need to give more resources … I believe that training remains our greatest responsibility and we must build training within everything we do in the department … We must also develop a culture of training within the department to ensure that people share knowledge and that everyone takes it upon himself or herself to train somebody else, or be trained by someone else. These prophetic words were both a recognition of the problems that our Department of Home Affairs is facing and, secondly, of what needs to be done to overcome the problems.

The problems that the Minister of Home Affairs was referring to were clearly demonstrated to us during our joint study tour to the Eastern Cape. We could not believe that there are still members of our civil service who still treat our people with utter disregard. This is unacceptable behaviour from the staff of the department. The issue of office equipment was raised in that most computers were old, printers were outdated, there were no photocopying machines, there was a shortage of staff, there were inadequate mobile units, and there wasn’t enough stationery. This impedes the delivery of services.

If the Department of Home Affairs cannot be in a position to deliver basic services, such as IDs and birth certificates, we can simply forget about pushing back the frontiers of poverty. The centrality of the department in this endeavour cannot be overemphasised. The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs recognised the centrality of the department when she said, and I quote:

During the January 2002 Cabinet lekgotla, it was once again evident that there is a growing need for all sections of our Government to plan together in communication with each other in order to ensure integrated development and a common approach to delivery of services. The department is allocated a very central role in the broad planning cycle of Government.

I want to focus on the problems that we observed in the Eastern Cape. What we are about to hear is what our people endure every day in that province. There were long queues in some areas. People were standing outside the office, in cool or hot weather. There was no proper management of offices, and no commitment on the part of staff. The attitude of some of the officials was disturbing, showing no sense of urgency regarding the fact that people had travelled long distances. The principle of Batho Pele was not being adhered to. Batho ba ile ba tla, ba utlwa pitso. Ba ne ba tlile ka bongata moo dipitsong tseo. Bongata ba tletlebo tsa batho ke dilemo tsa bona tse fosahetseng. Hohle moo re ileng teng, sello e ne ele dilemo tse fosahetseng, tse ka tlase, e leng lebaka le thibelang batho ho fumana mekgolo ya bona.

Ke lebaka le etsang hore bofuma bo ate mane Eastern Cape. Ntlha enngwe ke bo-nkgono ba hodisang ditloholo tsa bona. Ho fumaneha hore ho na le ditokomane tse molaong, tseo ho batlwang hore ho etswe dikopo tsa mangolo a tlhaho, ho thusa hore bana le bona ba fumane tjhelete ya mmuso, e thusang phepong ya bana.

Ntlha enngwe ke batjha ba hlahetseng mahaeng moo ho senang ditleliniki kapa sepetlele. Bana ba jwalo ke tshwanelo hore ba thusawe ho fumana ditokomane tsa bona tswalo kapa bukana ya boitsebiso. Lefapha la Ntshetsopele ya Setjhaba e leng Social Development, le lona le na le bofokodi. Ho a makatsa hore ngwana a be kgwedi tse supileng, e le kgutsana, a hloke dijo, lebese. A hloke diaparo e leng vesete kapa mongato, empa re ena le basebeletsi ba setjhaba metseng ya rona.

Puong ya hae mo-Presidente o boletse hore basebeletsi ba mmuso ba sa ikemisetsang ho sebetsa le ho phethisa ditabatabelo tsa puso, ba itokolle. Mmuso ona ke wa batho, o kgethilwe ke batho. Re tshwanetse ho sebetsa ka thata ho lokisa ditlhoko tsa batho ba habo rona. Re etse hoo matleng a rona hore moahi wa Aforika Borwa a fumane bukana ya hae ya boitsebiso, kapa ngwana, motjha emong le emong le bona ba fumane ditokomane tsa bona tse nepahetseng, tsa ngwana wa Aforika Borwa.

Re kopa lefapha la Mesebetsi ya Setjhaba ho sebedisana le mafapha a mang, haholo-holo lefapaha la Ditaba tsa Lehae bakeng sa diofisi moo di hlokehang teng. Ebe mosebetsi wa hore di pentwe, di hlwekiswe, ho bonahale hore ke diofisi tsa lehae. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[People came, they heard the invitation. They came in large numbers to those meetings. Most of the people’s complaints were about incorrect ages, which appeared in their identity documents. Wherever we went, the problems were about the wrong ages, which in most cases were lower than the real ages, which prevented people from receiving their old age grants.

This is why there is so much poverty in the Eastern Cape. The other problem is about the grandmothers who raise their grandchildren. There are official documents that are supposed to be filled in in order to apply for the birth certificates, so that these children can get the social grants, to help in their upbringing.

Another point is the youth who were born in rural areas where there are no clinics or hospitals. These children have the right to be assisted in order to get their birth certificates or identity documents. The Department of Social Development also has some weaknesses. It is really surprising how a seven-month-old child, who is an orphan, can go without food, milk, clothes or even a vest or nappy, when we have social workers in our communities. In his speech, the honourable President said that all government employees who are not prepared to work and fulfil their responsibilities, should resign. This Government is for the people, elected by the people. We should work hard to address our people’s needs. We should make it possible for every South African citizen to have an ID. Every child and every youth should also have all the necessary documents that give them their rights as South African citizens.

We are asking the Department of Social Services to work together with other departments, especially the Department of Home Affairs, to have offices where they are needed. Those offices should be renovated in order that people can see that they are Home Affairs offices.]

We now have a director-general in the Department of Home Affairs. It is important to co-operate with the department in order to ensure that we deliver to our people. There are funds that have been allocated for the opening of additional offices and information technology, and Cabinet has approved the filling of 349 vacancies.

We also call for there to be proper security of offices, especially where IDs and birth certificates are kept. Jointly, as members of Parliament, we should assist the department with the distribution of uncollected IDs by displaying lists in our constituencies. We also need to call on our communities and people in that as South African citizens they need to ensure that they have IDs and/or birth certificates.

Modula setulo ke a leboha. [Thank you, Chairperson.] [Applause.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: Chairperson, the IFP notes the report of the visit to the Eastern Cape by the Home Affairs and Social Development committees. In the report there is very little we can seriously find fault with. Initially the report was going to be rather one-sided, with Home Affairs being made to look as bad as possible and Social Development almost hunky-dory. Fortunately, sanity prevailed and we now have a more fair reflection of what we saw during that week.

The five-day visit to the Eastern Cape during May this year was, of course, an eye-opener in more ways than one. The poverty we saw in the whole Transkei area was absolutely shocking. Apart from the fact that very few people are employed there, it was very clear that the majority of the people in those rural areas seldom see a decent plate of food. I personally did not expect that nine years into our new democracy one would see poverty to that extent anywhere in South Africa.

Two days ago an hon member of this House stood at this podium and bragged about how anyone he speaks to tells him how their lives have improved since

1. As I listened to him, I seriously wondered whether we actually live in the same country. One would really like to challenge this member to go to the rural areas of the Eastern Cape and sell his ``pushing back the frontiers of poverty’’ story to those unfortunate people and see whether they will take him seriously. I know that some politicians have a tendency to stretch the truth rather far, but in this case I would suggest that it was plain dishonesty. One has to be reasonable and accept that Rome was not built in a day. At the rate we are going, however, one is afraid that it’s going to take 1 000 years to build Rome, which is simply not good enough. After centuries of neglect, our people really deserve so much better than this.

Coming back to the report before us today, it is a reasonable reflection of what we saw during that visit. We saw some promising things as far as both Home Affairs and Social Development are concerned. But we also saw many things which need serious improvement.

The physical buildings and structures that both departments are using in that area are simply not up to standard. In many cases houses are used as offices, which is simply not sufficient for the large number of people that they are supposed to serve.

The condition of the buildings is also generally not conducive to good staff moral. I cannot imagine how any staff member in some of those buildings can feel any other way than depressed when they come to work in the morning. The laissez-faire attitude of some staff members, especially senior staff members, as we have already heard, does not help the situation either.

We also got complaints that some staff members accept bribes to serve members of the public before others. There was also the allegation that there were corrupt practices in general. This is an allegation that one finds in just about every single Government department and it is sometimes difficult to determine how many of such allegations are in fact true.

Whereas I have no doubt in my mind that many allegations of bribery and corruption are true in our Government departments and society in general, one must keep in mind that we live in a country where everyone makes allegations against everyone else. We must guard against accepting allegations as fact, as we tend to do in South Africa. Unfortunately, perceptions seem to be much more important than reality. In general, there is a lot of hard work to be done in both departments in order to serve the public better.

It is not all doom and gloom, however. There are many things that are in fact working well. Many hundreds, if not thousands, of people were helped during that week by both departments. If the said departments are given more funds, which we all know they so desperately need, there is no doubt that they can and will do a much better job. Thank you.

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Chairperson, I just want this House to know that although the hon member Borman was talking so passionately about the trip here, she was not even part of that trip. The DA was not there. Perhaps the deep rural areas of the Eastern Cape is not a place the DA likes to visit. Yet she spoke so passionately about it as if she was there.

Maybe, in order to know what was happening, you need to go to those deep rural areas and actually see that poverty for yourself so as to know what is happening. So next time, hon member Borman, you must go to the Eastern Cape and not just read reports, then come here and mislead the people.

Mhlalingaphambili, malungu ahloniphekileyo, omnye wemisebenzi ephambili yamalungu epalamente yi``oversight’’, ukujonga ukuba ngaba imigaqo-nkqubo kaRhulumente iyafezekiswa kusini na. Ezi komiti zimbini zityelele iphondo leMpuma Koloni ukuya kuhlola ukuba konke kwenzeka ngendlela na. Xa silijonga eli phondo iMpuma Koloni, silibona lilelinye eliphambili kulawo athwaxwa yindlala, apho uninzi lwabantu lungenamisebenzi, apho kukho khona abantu abasele bekhulile kunye nabantwana abasakhulayo.

Ngokwengxelo yonyaka ka-2001 yequmrhu i-Statistics SA, abantu abangamawaka angamakhulu asixhenxe anamashumi amane anesibini, anamakhulu amane namashumi amabini anesixhenxe (742 427) bakwiminyaka yokuba bangasebenza, kodwa ngenxa yentswelo-misebenzi, abasebenzi. Le meko ayidalekanga kwiminyaka elithoba eyadlulayo. Yinto ekukudala ikhona, esizama ukusebenzana nayo. Sisebenzana nento ekukudala ikhona. Kangangokuba siyabona ngoku i-Statistics SA iyakwazi ukukhupha iinkcukacha malunga nabantu abangasebenziyo. Ngexesha lakudala eziya ndawo ezifana neTranskei zazingabalwa njengenxenye yoMzantsi Afrika. Sasingayazi imeko mayela nentlupheko, indlala kunye nentswelo-misebenzi injani na. Kambe ngoku siyazi … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, hon members, one of the functions of members of Parliament is oversight, which is overseeing that Government policies are implemented in a proper manner. The two committees visited the Eastern Cape to see whether things were working well. When we look at the Eastern Cape, we can see that it is one of the areas that is very poor, where the majority of people are unemployed, and where there are many old people and young people.

According to a report released by Statistics SA, 742 427 people of working age, are unemployed because of lack of jobs. This situation did not develop in the last nine years. It is a problem that has always been there and with which we are trying to deal by all means. It is good that Statistics SA has given a detailed report of people who are unemployed. Previously areas like the former Transkei were not part of South Africa. We did not know how big the issue of poverty, hunger and levels of unemployment were. Now we know … ]

… and that is the reason we have to address that problem.

Yonke ke le nto yenza into yokuba abantu abaninzi baxhomekeke kwinkxaso- mali uRhulumente athi abonelele ngayo abantu abadala, abo bakhubazekileyo kunye nabantwana. Kubalulekile okokuba iSebe leMicimbi yezeKhaya kunye nelezoPhuhliso loLuntu asebenze ngokubambisana, ukwenzela ukuba abo bantu baselungelweni lokuxhamla kwizibonelelo zikaRhulumente bakwenze oko ngaphandle kwamagingxigingxi.

Enye yeengxaki ezifumanekayo kwisithili sase O R Tambo yinto yokuba ucando (demarcation) lwesithili seengingqi zeSebe lemiCimbi yezeKhaya kunye nelezoPhuhliso loLuntu alufani. Ezinye iindawo wofumana ukuba ziwela phantsi kwephondo iKwaZulu-Natal logama, ngaxesha nye, ziphantsi kwephondo leMpuma Koloni. Zonke ezo zinto zenza into yokuba intsebenziswano ingahambi ngendlela.

Mna andizi kuthetha kakhulu ngeengxaki nanjengoko amanye amalungu sele ezikhankanyile. Xa la masebe enikwe izibonelelo, Mhlalingaphambili, kufuneka sibonelele izinto ezinjenge``one-stop shop’’, apho kukho zonke izinto. Ngolo hlobo bangathi abantu xa beye kufuna uncedo oluthi lunikwe nguRhulumente bakwazi ukuzifumana ezo zinto kwindawo enye, kuba into eyenzekayo kukuba abantu bahamba imigama emide, bachitha iimali ezininzi abangenazo, njengoko behluphekile. Kanti, xa ikhona iofisi yeSebe lezeKhaya kunye neyezoPhuhliso loLuntu ndaweni nye, abantu baya kukwazi ukuthi bafikelele kuloo ndawo bazenze zonke ezo zinto ngaxesha nye bengakhange babheka ngapha nangaphaya.

Ke sothulela umnqwazi ooceba ngegalelo labo lokuncedisana neSebe lezeKhaya ekuhambiseni izazisi, kwaye sikhuthaza into yokuba konke oku kwenzeke ngentsebenziswano kunye neSebe lezeKhaya, kuba kaloku abantu abaphethe lo mcimbi ngabo beSebe lezeKhaya. Bona bayabazi abantu bekwaziqonda neemfuno zabantu. Siyazi nento yokuba kukho nezazisi ezilele kwezo ndawo, ezingaphuthunywayo ngabantu, ekuye kuthi ke ooceba babazi abanye kwabo bantu bazo kwaye babakhuthaze ukuba baye kuzilanda.

Zonke ezi zinto zenza into yokuba abantu bakwazi ukuba bafikelele kolo ncedo uRhulumente alunikayo, kuba xa singakwazi ukunceda abantu ngomthetho esiwuwisileyo thina, asikwazi ke ngoko ukuyisusa ikati eziko. Nanjengoko sisazi ukuba uMongameli wethu uthi masilibhekelisele phaya, lisuke, elo liwa lendlala ebantwini abalambayo, ukwenzela ukuba abantu bakwazi ukwenza izinto zabo.

Sihlaba ikhwelo kubo bonke abahlali abangekazilandi izazisi zabo ukuba bancede baye kuzilanda, nabo bangekabi nazo benze izicelo zezazisi, kuba uRhulumente wenze umtyhi wokuba abantu abangenamali bahambe baye kufaka izicelo. Isazisi mna ndisibona njengeqhayiya kum, nanjengommi waseMzantsi Afrika. Okokuqala, sindenza ndibonakale ukuba ndingummi walapha eMzantsi Afrika. Okwesibini, sinceda ekubeni lowo unelungelo lokuxhamla abe nakho ukuxhamla kuba kaloku isazisi unaso njengoko bebaninzi abangeneleli abathi baxhamle. Makuqale kuxhamle abemi baseMzantsi Afrika kuqala. Kambe xa isithi bahlali - ndibhekisa kubahlali ngoku - abangazithabathiyo ezi zazisi zethu, singazenzi nezicelo, kuza kuxhamla abanye abantu ngelungelo lethu. Ndiyacela ke kubahlali bethu ukuba balisebenzise eli thuba.

Sinengqiniseko yokuba zonke ezi ngxaki zikhoyo zezimayelana nezibonelelo ikakhulu. Kungoku nje siququzelela uMthetho oYilwayo obizwa ngokuba yi``National Security Agency Bill’’ esibonisana ngawo, noya kuthi ulungise zonke ezi ngxaki zikhoyo ezibangela ukuba abantu abadala, abantwana nabantu abakhubazekileyo bangazifumani ngendlela izibonelelo ezo. Sizama ukususa ubuqhophololo kwanezinye izenzo ezingalunganga. Silungiselela ukuba zonke izinto abantu abathi bazifumane bazifumane ngendlela, bangaxinwa bubuqhophololo nezinye izenzo ezibi. Konke oku sikwenza sisenzela ukugxotha indlala, senzela ukunceda abantu baseMzantsi Afrika.

Kambe sizezi komiti zimbini sibulela ithuba lokuba sikwazi okwenzekayo eMpuma Koloni. Siye ngokwethu, thina bantu bakhathelele abantu, hayi imibutho enjenge-DA, efunda emaphepheni ze ihambe iye kukwenza ingxelo ngaphandle. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[All these issues create a situation where many people have to depend on money that the Government grants to old people, the disabled and children. It is important that the Department of Home Affairs and the Department of Social Services work together so that those people that have a right to benefit from these services can do so without any hassles.

One of the many problems that exists in the O R Tambo district is demarcation of areas that fall under the Department of Home Affairs and those that fall under the Department of Social Services. One would find that some areas fall under KwaZulu-Natal while at the same time, they would be taken to be belonging to the Eastern Cape Province. All this makes it difficult for matters to take place the way they should.

I think I should not say much about these problems as other hon members have cited them already. When these departments have been allocated their share of funds and services, Chairperson, I think we should have what are called ``one-stop shops’’, where everything would be available at one place. That way, service would be available in one place because what also happens is that people have to walk or travel very long distances, spending a lot of money they do not have, as they are poor. But, if there were offices of both the Department of Home Affairs and the Department of Social Services in one place or close to one another, people would be able to do all that is necessary at the same time without having to travel back and forth.

We commend the councillors for their assistance to the Department of Home Affairs by delivering identity documents and we would like to encourage that all these efforts take place in co-operation with the Department of Home Affairs. The councillors are in constant contact with the people, and therefore, they know and understand their needs. We also know that there are identity documents that are not collected by their owners and councillors would know some of the people and talk them into going to collect them.

These are all efforts to make Government’s services accessible to people because if we cannot assist people so that they can benefit from the laws that we have drawn ourselves, then we cannot reduce or remove poverty. As we all know, our President calls on all of us to drive back the frontiers of poverty so that people can do things themselves.

We are blowing the whistle and we are saying to all those that have not yet collected their identity documents that they should hasten to do so, and that those who have not yet applied for new identity documents should please go and do so because the Government has made it possible for those who do not have money to apply for new ones. Having an identity document makes me proud as a citizen of South Africa. Firstly, it proves that I am a respectable member of society and a citizen of South Africa. Secondly, it enables those that have a right to benefit from Government’s services to do so and it separates him or her from fraudsters. Let the citizens of South Africa benefit first. As citizens of the country, if we do not collect our identity documents and if we do not apply for grants, other people will overtake us. I am asking our people to use this opportunity.

We want to believe that all these problems are mainly about services and grants. We are now preparing the National Security Agency Bill which seeks to take into consideration all these kinds of problems that cause old people, children and the disabled not to be able to access these grants. We are trying to root out corruption and other activities that are unlawful. Our aim is to make things available to those that are rightfully supposed to benefit from services and not be deterred by corrupt people. All these are efforts to fight poverty and to help people of South Africa. We are glad to have had an opportunity to learn about what is happening in the Eastern Cape. We went there ourselves, as people who care about others, and not like organisations like the DA, that read what is written on paper and go and claim that they know what is going on. [Applause.]]

Mr S PILLAY: Thank you, Chairperson. There can be no doubt that the offices of the Department of Home Affairs in the Eastern Cape are in a shambles. Only two officials were available to attend to more than 60 applicants per day. This situation was further complicated by the unhygienic conditions that prevailed there. An illustration is that there was a total disregard for the safe storing of all enabling documents. This meant that any member of the public could walk in and rummage through the birth certificates and other documents. This situation is further complicated by the fact that there is no secure area in which to store documents. This horrible situation has prevailed since 2001.

At the Mqanduli Social Development office it was found that there was no shelter from hostile weather elements and the committee was advised that plans had been approved to build a shelter. For the past five years people have had to endure this state of affairs. When will it be corrected? The Home Affairs office there is a health hazard. The structure, for want of a better word, was made of zinc and does not have toilets or a telephone. There was no official to issue birth certificates, therefore, no one could register for any social grant.

At the Mapuzi Technical College there were no Home Affairs officials and there were long queues of people waiting to be attended to. Most people indicated that they could not afford the fee of about R36 for photographs. This created a major problem as they could not apply for identity documents without photographs and, as a consequence, could not apply for any social grant until they were in possession of those identity documents.

The Umzimvubu Local Municipality that falls under the Alfred Nzo District serves 32 wards. The community has to travel to Mt Frere, Mt Ayliff and Maluti for services. All of those offices are far from each other and inconveniently situated to serve residents from that area.

Chairperson, the situation that I described is prevalent throughout most of the Eastern Cape. The fact that the people in that province are unable to receive services from the Department of Home Affairs is an issue of great concern. The Minister must take responsibility for the chaos that prevails there and take immediate steps to remedy the situation so that ordinary people can receive some form of relief.

Chairperson, the people in that province, especially black people in rural areas, are in need of urgent and immediate assistance. It is the duty of the Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that every South African receives the enabling documents. The physical infrastructure, computer systems where they exist, transport and personnel, must be audited as a matter of urgency and where there are shortcomings, they must be addressed.

A needs analysis should include the location of offices, their location with consideration to where Social Development offices are, the filling of vacant posts, training of staff, a method of securing documents, transporting documents from local offices to head office, and the efficient and fast delivery of identity documents and birth certificates after they are received by the local office. An excellent start would be to investigate the needs of every office in the province.

We have stated on more than one occasion that the Department of Home Affairs interacts with every South African citizen from birth through till death, and with every person that either leaves or enters the country. If these matters are not attended to, we will subject innocent people to more pain, poverty, misery and hunger. Again, the unfortunate aspect is that it is the same people that continue to suffer.

It is the obligation of every responsible person and every public representative to visit the offices of the Department of Home Affairs to see how they operate. We have only one choice in this matter, and that is to ensure that this department functions efficiently. The budget for the whole province and each office needs to be interrogated and, where necessary, adjustments need to be effected.

As an illustration, no allocation was made for computers in the current budget. From the chaos that exists an urgent programme of action between all relevant departments would yield excellent results, and it is the Department of Home Affairs that should lead and clearly outline its needs.

Chairperson, the impact of Circular Q4 should be evaluated as it creates a climate of despondency and confusion. Some senior officials are using that circular to reject applications for promotions, and that must be managed. A more comprehensive supervision, reporting and accountability process must be implemented without delay. That means officials from the head office must visit the local offices as a routine process and certainly not wait for parliamentary portfolio committees to initiate such visits.

Chairperson, we urge this House to take note of the issues and to assist the portfolio committees to exercise their oversight role in a more vigorous and consistent manner. Thank you.

Prof L M MBADI: Sekela-Somlomo, mandiqale ngokumncoma uMnu Pillay, kuba nakuba wayengekho kolu khenketho, kambe uyifundile ingxelo waza wayitolika ngale ndlela ayitolike ngayo. Siyabulela mntakwethu.

Iikomiti ezimbini, phantsi kwento kaChauke nento kaSaloojee, zavana ngokuba zenze ukhenketho lweendawo ezininzi phaya kulaa maphandle ekwakufudula kusithiwa ngumntla-mpuma Transkei. Iinjongo ke zolu khenketho ibikukuya kuhlola unatyiso lweenkonzo eziqulunqwe ukuhlangabezana neemfuno zabantu. Ingxelo esixoxa ngayo yileyo ithiwe thaca phambi kwamalungu ePalamente ukuze ayihlalutye, abone ukuba iingxaki zabantu zingahlangatyezwa zisonjululwe njani na.

Masiqale ngokuthi oorhulumente bengcinezelo apha eMzantsi Afrika naseAfrika jikelele baziphatha njengemigqakhwe eyayingafanelwanga zizinto zenkqubela nempucuko iindawo zasemaphandleni nabantu bazo. Ezo zinto zaphelela ezixekweni ezikhulu ezinjengoomaRhawuti, oomaKapa, oomaBhayi, ooThekwini, njalonjalo, nto ke leyo eyenze ukuba abantu babe ziimbacu ezashiya amakhaya zaya kuxelenga kwezo ndawo zinoshishino nenkqubela. Abantu bezi ndawo ke ngoku bakhala isimbonono bathi, ``Thina singabantwana bakabani na? Le nkululeko nempucuko yofika nini na apha kuthi?’’

Mawethu, kubi emaphandleni! Ikati ilel’ eziko. Abantu nomhlaba wabo bambatshile, baxwebile, banxunguphele. Umhlaba uziindonga, iindlela ngamageduka, ubhubhane ugawula omdala nomncinci, kusisijwili nje esikhwankqisayo. Kungcwatywa umntu phezu komntu. Bakhale zada zomela iinyembezi.

Olu khenketho lwethu ke lube yimpendulo kwiincwina ezenziwa ngabemi basemaphandleni ezifana nezi: ``Abantwana bethu abanazo izazisi zokuzalwa khon’ ukuze baxhamle amalungelo abo abawanikwa nguRhulumente okhokelwa nguKhongolose. Uninzi lwabantu phaya luseneziya zazisi zengcinezelo, oodompas, nto zingaxeliyo nokuba umntu wazalwa nini na. Abafundi abalungele ukuba bangavota kunyaka ozayo abanazazisi.

Enye ingxaki abanayo kukunqongophala kweenkozo zokuya nokubuya edolophini, ekukuphela kwendawo ekufunyanwa kuyo izazisi. Bayithatha phi yona imali yokuhlawulela iifoto? Idolophu kuphela kwendawo ekwenziwa kuyo izicelo zenkxaso-mali yabantwana abakhubazekileyo nezabantu abadala. Aphi ke amarherhebe okuya apho?

Ukuzama ukuhlangabezana nala makhwiniba akhwinisa uninzi lwabantu ke, iikomiti zagqibe ekubeni zikhenkethe esona sixeko sikhulu kumntla-mpuma Koloni, i-OR Tambo. Esi sixeko sakhiwwa zezi zixekwana zinamaphandle amakhulu, uMasipala i-KSD, oquka uMtata noMqanduli; iNyandeni, equka iLibode neNgqeleni; uMasipala wasePort St Johns; uMasipala uMhlontlo, oquka uQumbu noTsolo; uMasipala waseNtabankulu; Masipala waseQawukeni, owakhiwe nguLusikisiki neFlagstaff; uMasipala iMbizana, owakhiwe ngeBhizana.

Emva kodliwanondlebe namagosa aphezulu kwiinkonzo zoluntu eMtata, amalungu eekomiti agqiba ekubeni ezi nkonzo mazisiwe ebantwini kunokuba abantu beze kuzo. Yaqala apho ke le nkqubo kaRhulumente yokusa iinkonzo ebantwini, watsho waqhawuk’ unobathana, kwayiwa le nale. Inkqubo yezazisi nezicelo zenkxaso zasiwa ebantwini. Kwaqalwa eMapuzi Technical College eMqanduli, kwa Wadi 1. Kwafikwa ingengomntu kunyakazela, abantu benxanelwe uncedo, kucace mhlophe ukuba abangako abantu babengena kugqitywa.

Igqiza lekomiti, emva kothetha-thethwano nabantu, laphawula iingxaki zokuba abantu abaqinisekanga ukuba ngubani omakafumane inkamnkam, ingubani omakafumane isibonelelo senkxaso-mali yabantwana. Eyona ngxaki inkulu kukungaqiniseki ngeminyaka yobudala. Uninzi lwabantu alunawo la ma-20 eerandi eefoto, nto leyo eyenza ukuba uninzi lungabi nazazisi.

Kukubi kunjalo, sakwazi ukunceda inanana elikhulu apha naphaya, kodwa kwahle kwacaca ukuba sasingena kuphuphumelela. Sazihamba zonke iindawo ekwakumele ukuba sibe sazihamba, safumanisa ukuba iimeko ziyafana nezeendawo esasele sifikile kuzo.

Ewe, kambe sizivile izaphuselana ziphukaneka zisithi: ``UKhongolose ulungiselela uvoto ngezi ntshukumo.’’ Akunjalo. UKhongolose sele ephumelele kade. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Ngezi nzame ndizama ukubethelela nokuqaqambisa ukuba masingalali emqokozweni: kusekude engqinibeni. Mninzi umntu ongekabi nasazisi phandl’ apha. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa speech follows.)

[Prof L M MBADI: Deputy Chair, let me start off by paying tribute to hon Mr Pillay who, though he did not make the trip, read the report and interpreted it the way he did. Thank you, brother.

Two committees, under the leadership of the hon Chauke and the hon Saloojee, agreed to undertake trips to various areas in the north-east of the former Transkei. The object of the trips was to monitor delivery regarding people’s needs. The report has been put before Parliament so that hon members can analyse it and see how people’s needs can be met.

Oppressive governments, here in South Africa and in Africa generally, have always treated rural areas and their people as if they were bastards who do not deserve anything modern. Modern technology was only enjoyed by the big cities, such as Johannesburg, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Durban, etc, which led to people leaving their homes to look for work in those areas where there were business and development opportunities. Now the people from rural areas are crying out, asking, ``Whose children are we? When will this freedom and development reach us?’’

Hon members, life is tough in the rural areas! Poverty is rife there. The land is barren, and the people are pale and sad. Soil is eroded; roads are damaged, Aids is killing indiscriminately, both the old and the young, and there is an atmosphere of sadness. There’s a funeral almost every day. People have cried their eyes dry.

This tour was in response to the concerns raised by people in rural areas, such as: ``Our children do not have the birth certificates necessary for them to access the benefits provided by the ANC-led Government. Many people there still have the apartheid-era identity documents, the dompas, which do not indicate the date of birth. Learners who qualify to vote next year do not have identity documents.

Another problem is that they cannot afford the trips to and from town, which is the only place where they can get their IDs. And where do they get money to pay for ID photos? Applications for child support grants, disability and old age pensions are only done in town. Where is money for the fare?

To address the concerns raised, the committees decided to tour the largest area in the north-eastern Cape, the O R Tambo municipal area. This city is made up of the following largely rural municipalities: the KSD Municipality, which includes Umtata and Mqanduli; Nyandeni, which includes Libode and Ngqeleni; the Port St Johns Municipality; the Mhlontlo Municipality, which includes Qumbu and Tsolo; the Ntabankulu Municipality; the Qawukeni Municipality, which is made up of Lusikisiki and Flagstaff; the Mbizana Municipality, which is made up of Bhizana.

Following interviews with high-ranking officials in social services in Umtata, committee members decided that these services should be taken to the people instead of the other way round. That marked the beginning of Government’s policy of taking services to the people, and since then things have never been the same. The system of applications for IDs and grants was taken to the people. It started at Mapuzi Technical College, in Ward 1 at Mqanduli. There were so many people, all anxious to get help, and it became clear that so many people could not be helped in one day.

The committee delegation realised, after talking to the people, that people were not sure who qualified for pensions or the child support grant. But even more of a problem is the people’s uncertainty regarding their ages. Many cannot afford the R20 required for ID photos, as a result many do not have IDs.

Be that as it may, we were able to help a fairly large number of people here and there, but it became clear that we could not help everybody. We visited all the places we were scheduled to visit, and we found similar conditions in all of them.

Indeed, we did hear critics say: ``These actions by the ANC are an election gimmick’’. Not true. The ANC has won the elections already. [Applause.] With those words I’m trying to emphasise the fact that we should not be complacent: there is still a lot to be done. There are many people without IDs out there. Thank you. [Applause.]] Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chair, the report paints a grim picture of the level of social delivery provided to the people in the region. One of the main factors coming through is the high level of apathy displayed by public servants. The reasons may be varied, but if we should view public service from the perspective of the people, then Government is not fulfilling its mandate to help those in need.

An example of this apathy is stated in the early sections of the report where the Department of Home Affairs officials wanted only to concentrate on addressing issues around registration of births and issuing of birth certificates. The joint committee was right to query this approach, and to insist that the Department of Home Affairs deal with the backlog of ID applications.

The areas visited in the Eastern Cape show a strong need for crisis intervention to accelerate the process of correcting issues relating to age, threshold, discrepancies, pension viability, and ID shortages. The conditions in which some of the public servants have to work are simply not acceptable. The state must be brought to task for allowing its buildings to fall into a state of disrepair.

The adage ``Cleanliness is next to godliness’’ should apply not only in the home, but also in public establishments. Poverty is a burden, we know, but to provide poor service and unattractive buildings is an insult to the people. The public sector needs to show people dignity by way of professional protocol in person and in work environment.

There are a number of issues raised in the report that indicate problems experienced by the areas visited. One of these is the lack of finances to pay for ID photos to apply for the IDs. The ACDP would add to the list of recommendations made within the report that the state takes on this burden, especially in the poorer areas, and provides the service free of charge. An ID is a form of empowerment, and sometimes the only measure whereby people can claim access to state assistance. Without this document the poor are further marginalised. The ACDP wishes to see that this problem highlighted in the report enjoys the attention it deserves.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF has great appreciation for study tours, as they allow us to gain a more detailed and real analysis of the current situation. The study tour to the Eastern Cape revealed a number of matters of concern that require our urgent attention.

The MF notes the cumbersome task that the Departments of Home Affairs and of Social Development face. However, we are challenged to take on these duties and responsibilities. Loopholes in both sectors are noted in the above reports. Situations are unacceptable, and the MF feels that the matter needs to be addressed with urgency in a cost-effective and time- efficient manner. These matters need to be tackled diligently.

The MF acknowledges the recommendations made by the study group which has made a great effort in investigating the situation in the Eastern Cape. We have a constitutional duty to these citizens in the Eastern Cape, and to all South Africans nationally.

The MF supports recommendations made in both reports, and hopes that this will receive earnest attention and that every effort will be made to correct the imbalances in the Eastern Cape region. It would be appropriate for these matters to be addressed together to enable a close eye to be kept on both sectors’ improvement, efficiently and effectively.

The MF thanks the task team for its report, and hopes that its efforts will be met by the earnest addressing of current issues and recommendations. Thank you, Chairperson.[Applause.]

HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Praise!]

Ms N M TSHEOLE: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of the women!] Hon Chairperson, and hon members, I come here to indicate its significance

• I am not going to go into the report. All the speakers who came before me have indicated the issues which were observed on this oversight trip to the Eastern Cape. They have also alluded to recommendations that have been made in the report.

I am going to repeat what I said on Tuesday when we were debating the report of the joint budget committee, that indeed the tide has turned. The tide has turned in the sense that today we are discussing issues without sweeping them under the carpet. I will always emphasise that. Mr Ferreira has indicated that he did not know that such poverty existed in South Africa.

This is one of the things that shows that the tide has indeed turned, even people who did not know, now know. Now they can passionately talk about things they have seen and witnessed for themselves, and these are some of the changes we talk about.

I would like to say, hon Ferreira, you are very right. We live among those people experiencing such poverty, as we have always, and I think that some of the members of the IFP can confirm that. These are some of the things that we see every day. I would like to say that it also shows the significance of these visits to provinces.

As hon Ramotsamai has indicated, it is only by making visits to these areas that we gain the experience to be able to know the reports that we get from departments should not just be left at that. We can go to grassroots level and see them. It should not only be done by portfolio committees.

I wonder how many of us can, on our own, especially hon members from the DA like the hon Borman, quote people in their constituencies who live under such conditions every day? [Interjections.] I am glad that this is the sign that the tide has indeed turned. The hon members from the DA say they always go to their constituencies and these are signs of the new tide.

We would also like to indicate the significance of co-operative governance. We are not going to say because we are in Parliament we just leave issues to provinces and to local councils. When going on these oversight trips, we are able to interact with departments, local councils and provincial departments. They have to know that when we call them and interact with them, it is not on the basis of a boss-employee relationship, it is on the basis of co-operative governance. They must know that we go to them in order to interact with them, because we make policies and we want to ensure that the policies that we are making in Parliament are being observed and are being implemented adequately.

The other positive aspect which this report brings out is that two committees were combined. The clustering that has been brought into Parliament by the ANC-led Government means that we will not point fingers at one single department. We are all together in this.

The significance of the Department of Home Affairs in the delivery of services cannot be overemphasised. Unfortunately, hon Ferreira, when we indicate this, it is not because the report was just indicated, it is because the Department of Home Affairs is very crucial to the delivery of services. It is not because of anything that perhaps somebody might have indicated. These are some of the things that we indicate, and indeed the tide has turned.

We move again to the issue of Batho Pele. Whatever we do, we bring in that. The tide has indeed turned. [Interjections.] No matter what you say. Yes, there are still many issues to be addressed with regard to poverty, but we are tackling it, we are not sweeping it under the carpet.

So, hon members, even if you can complain, when we discuss the issues of social development and the plight of our people, let us not be partisan, because these are issues that are very sensitive, and people are experiencing them.

The fact that hon Borman says it is nine years, I do not know whether the hon member knows the implications of her statement. Do you imply that these things were only introduced nine years ago? Before those nine years, nothing was there? Is that what you mean? That is the implication of your statement. So, be careful what you say. You might think that you are slighting the ANC. You are indeed promoting the ANC, because the ANC has only led the Government for the past nine years and here are things. Even though they have only existed for nine years, they are there, hon member. So, be careful. [Applause.]

The other thing that this report indicates, we would like to send messages about this to the province of the Eastern Cape, and all the other provinces must learn from what we are saying when we say, when we deal with the payments of grants, which have been outsourced to CPS, and to a certain extent even though we find that there are problems within the departments of Government, the delivery by CPS has not been done properly, and it is incumbent on the provincial governments to ensure that when they outsource, they keep to their service level agreements so that they can push out whoever they have agreed with to deliver the services. Because there are quite a number of issues that might be raised.

I would like to say that the issue of this co-operative governance, that I would like to come back to, creates an opportunity for us to link up with provincial portfolio committees. After doing this trip and presenting the report to the portfolio committee, we have already interacted with the portfolio committee in the Eastern Cape, and they have assured us that they are following up on these issues.

This is how we should start working and these are the issues [Interjections.] No, the MEC did come. It is because you did not come on the second trip, and we are not talking about the second trip, hon member. The MEC did come when we went there on the second trip.

I am not going to go into issues of the second trip, but the issue that I would like to take up is that the tide has turned. Yes, there are problems, but all the issues that we have mentioned acknowledge the fact that the ANC- led Government has turned the tide; and to our people we say: Do not lose hope, things are coming to you. The services are going to improve. [Applause.]

Mnr J J PRETORIUS: Voorsitter, hier is so baie goed hierso dat ek eers so ‘n bietjie moet skoonmaak voordat ek kan begin praat.

Voorsitter, dit is vir my aangenaam om vanmiddag aan hierdie debat deel te neem. Alhoewel ek nie die toer kon meemaak nie, het ek as boorling van die Oos-Kaap groot deernis vir die probleme van die Oos-Kaap.

Die ou klein dorpie, of gehuggie, waar ek gebore is - Alicedale - daar naby Grahamstad; en daar waar ek skool gegaan het, op Dordrecht; en ander dorpe waar ek ook op skool was, Indwe en Lady Frere - dit is dié dele wat ek ken en waar ek weet dat daar inderdaad baie armoede heers. Dit is jammer dat ‘n mens vanmiddag eintlik so ‘n swartgallige prentjie van die Oos-Kaap het. Ek hoop dat die departement alles in sy vermoë sal doen om seker te maak dat die dienste wat aan die mense van die Oos-Kaap gelewer word van so ‘n gehalte sal wees dat hulle ook inderdaad daarop trots kan wees.

Elkeen wat vanmiddag gepraat het, het bevestig dat daar ‘n tekort aan personeel is, maar dit is meer as dit. Dis inderdaad ‘n tekort aan opgeleide personeel. Dis ‘n tekort aan rekenaars en as daar rekenaars is, is hulle baie keer ook verouderd. Dan het ons onvoldoende kantoorfasiliteite, ‘n tekort aan algemene dienslewering, byvoorbeeld ‘n tekort aan mobiele eenhede en addisionele kantore.

‘n Ander saak wat vanmiddag deur ons agb President ongelukkig nie aangespreek is nie, is die probleem rondom die bedrag wat toegeken moet word vir die ID-veldtog. ‘n Bedrag van R15 miljoen is aanvanklik toegeken, en R10 miljoen daarvan is alreeds deur die departement gespandeer en die departement het ‘n addisionele R65 miljoen aangevra en tot op hierdie stadium is dit nog nie deur die Tesourie toegeken nie. Voorsitter, dít gaan bepaal of hierdie ID-veldtog inderdaad ‘n sukses gaan wees, of dit ‘n suksesvolle veldtog gaan wees. Daarom hoop ek, en ek doen ‘n beroep op die voorsitter en op die komiteelede, ons sal seker maak dat hierdie geld gekry word sodat die ID-veldtog inderdaad suksesvol deurgevoer kan word.

Ek dink ook die departement het nogtans, ten spyte van die probleme, goed gevaar as ‘n mens dink aan die tekort aan fondse en die tekort aan personeel. Vanaf 1 April tot die einde van Augustus vanjaar, het die departement 1,3 miljoen aansoeke vir ID’s ontvang. Net meer as ‘n miljoen aansoeke, 1 015 000, is tot op hierdie stadium uitgereik. Soveel as 292 000 moet nog uitgereik word.

Die ander probleem wat ek graag wil aanspreek, gaan oor die kwessie van onwettige immigrante. Dis inderdaad ‘n krisis. Die departement se amptenare, en ander gerugte wat die rondte doen, sê dat mense die laat registrasie van geboortes misbruik om uiteindelik Suid-Afrikaanse burgerskap in die hande te kry. Ek het nie klinkklare bewyse nie. Uit die inligting wat aan my oorgedra is, kan mens aflei dat daar veral sedert 1994 baie mense is - en dis nie noodwendig jong mense nie; ouer mense 30, 40, en 50 jaar en ouer - wat aansoek doen vir laat registrasie en dan uiteindelik gebeur dit dat daardie persoon wat aansoek doen om ‘n ID, dit doen om ‘n Suid-Afrikaanse burger te word.

Ek dink dat as daar nou iets gedoen moet word aan hierdie saak, wil ek vanmiddag ‘n beroep doen dat die Regering of die departement ‘n ondersoek na hierdie saak instel om hiervan seker te maak. Dis werkgeleenthede en dis behuising en dis ander geriewe en infrastruktuur wat in die proses vir alle Suid-Afrikaners gebruik kan word wat nie na hulle toe kom nie. Baie dankie, en ek hoop ons kan die probleme van die departement oplos. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J J PRETORIUS: Chairperson, there are so many things here that I need to clear a space before I can start speaking.

Chairperson, it is my pleasure to participate in this debate this afternoon. Although I could not be part of the tour, I, as a native of the Eastern Cape, have great compassion for the problems of the Eastern Cape.

The small town, or settlement, where I was born - Alicedale - close to Grahamstown; and where I went to school, in Dordrecht, and other towns where I attended school, Indwe and Lady Frere - those are the areas that I am familiar with and where I know that poverty is indeed rife. It is a pity that one gets such a bleak picture of the Eastern Cape this afternoon.

I hope that the department will do everything in its power to ensure that the services that are rendered to the people of the Eastern Cape are of such a quality that they can indeed also be proud of it.

Everyone who has spoken this afternoon has confirmed that there is a shortage of staff, but it is more than that. It is in fact a shortage of trained personnel. It is a lack of computers and if there are computers, they are often obsolete. Then we have insufficient office facilities, a lack of general service delivery, for example a lack of mobile units and additional offices.

Another matter that our hon President unfortunately did not address this afternoon, is the problem concerning the amount that should be allocated for the ID campaign. An amount of R15 million was initially awarded, and R10 million of that has already been spent by the department and the department has requested an additional R65 million and at this stage Treasury has not awarded it yet.

Chairperson, this will determine whether this ID campaign will indeed be a success; if it will be a successful campaign. That is why I hope, and I call upon the chairperson and the committee members, that we will ensure that these funds are obtained so that the ID campaign can indeed be implemented successfully.

I also think, in spite of the problems, that the department has done well if one thinks about the lack of funds and the staff shortage. From 1 April to the end of August this year the department received 1,3 million applications for IDs. Just more than a million applications, 1 015 000, have been issued to date. As many as 292 000 still have to be issued.

The other problem that I would like to address concerns the issue of illegal immigrants. This is indeed a crisis. Officials from the department and other rumours going around claim that people are abusing the late registration of births in order to eventually obtain South African citizenship. I do not have any concrete evidence. From the information that was conveyed to me, one can deduce that particularly since 1994, many people - and it is not necessarily young people; older people, of 30, 40 and 50 years and older - have applied for late registration and then it eventually happens that that person who applies for an ID document, is doing so to become a South African citizen.

I think that if something has to be done about this matter now, I want to call upon the Government or the department to investigate and obtain certainty about it. It is job opportunities and it is housing and it is other amenities and infrastructure that could be used by all South Africans, but they are not getting what they deserve. Thank you very much, and I hope that we can solve the department’s problems. Thank you very much.]

Mnu M U KALAKO: Mhlalingaphambili namalungu ePalamente abalulekileyo, utyelelo lweKomiti yezeKhaya yalapha ePalamente eMpuma Koloni, ngakumbi kummandla obusakwaziwa njengeTranskei phantsi kombuso wocalucalulo, lusibonise ukuba kuninzi ekufuneka sikwenzile singamalungu eNdlu yoWiso- mthetho malunga nesigqeba sikaRhulumente sezekhaya.

Kuyinyaniso ecace njengebhokhwe ehlungwini ukuba ngaphandle kwezazisi neziqinisekiso zokuzalwa kwabantwana kunye nokubhaliswa kwabo basishiyileyo, asinakho ukwenza ukuba abantu baseMzantsi Afrika bafikelele kwiinkonzo zikaRhulumente. Umpoposho kaRhulumente wokuba abantu mababhalise abantwana ukuze babe nezazisi nokuba baye kwiiofisi zeSebe lezeKhaya ukuze bafumane izazisi, kufuneka siwukhuthaze ngamandla.

Abantu baseMzantsi Afrika kufuneka bazi ukuba uRhulumente akenzeli ukuba abantu bakwazi ukubhalisela uvoto, koko wenzela ukuba abantu abadala, amaxhego namaxhegwazana akwazi ukufumana indodla okanye inkamnkam yawo kuba ngaphandle kwesazisi esikuchaza ukuba wazalwa nini, akunakukwazi ukuxhamla indodla.

Ukanti nokubhaliswa kwabantwana nabakhubazekileyo kubalulekile ukuze nabo bakwazi ukuxhamla kwimali athi ayikhuphe rhoqo ngenyanga uRhulumente. Ukutsho oko ke bantu baseMzantsi Afrika, eli phulo lokuphuma sijikeleze sinicenga sinithundeza ukuba nibhalise abantwana, nithathe izazisi, ngokunjalo nibhalise nabakhubazekileyo, liza kuqhubeka de soneliseke ukuba wonke umntu waseMzantsi Afrika ubhalisile. Ukanti ke kananjalo siyanibongoza ukuba xa ninezazisi, hambani niye kubhalisela unyulo lonyaka ozayo ukuze nikwazi ukukhetha umbutho onikhulule emakhamandeleni, engcinezelweni, esihogweni sikaFaro, wanifaka endleleni eya eKanana; umbutho ofungayo ukuba awusoze uphumle ningekangeni eKanana. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Kolu tyelelo zininzi iingxaki esiye saziqwalasela xa abantu befuna uncedo kwiSebe lezeKhaya. Ezinye zazo esithe saziphawula zezi zilandelayo: Eyokuqala, yeyokuba abantwana abangenabazali kuba nzima ukuba benzelwe iziqiniseko zokuzalwa kanti nabo sebefike eminyakeni yokuba babe nezazisi baba nengxaki ukuba babhaliswe bafumane izazisi. Okwesibini, amagama abantu imihla kunye neminyaka yabo yokuzalwa ibhalwe ngempazamo kwizazisi, zabo, nto leyo eyenza ukuba babe neengxaki ekufumaneni amalungelo abo.

Okwesithathu, ezinye iindawo elizisebenzisayo iSebe lezeKhaya azikho mgangathweni, neendawo ekugcinwa kuzo izazisi nezinto zokusebenza zesebe azikho mgangathweni. Okwesine, kusekho izazisi ezininzi kakhulu neziqinisekiso zokuzalwa ezinamagama abantwana ezihleli kwiiofisi zesebe lezeKhaya yaye ezi ziqinisekiso nezi zazisi azikhuselekanga kwaphela. KwiMpuma Koloni kuphela kukho ama-34 872 ezazisi ezingekafikeleli kubantu bazo.

Okwesihlanu, kukho nengxaki yokulahleka kwezazisi kwiiofisi zeSebe lezeKhaya kuba ziqhekezwa kakhulu. Loo nto ke yenziwa kukuba azikhuselekanga. Okwesithandathu, ukubuyiselwa kwezi zazisi neziqinisekiso zokuzalwa kubantu bazo yenye yeengxaki zeSebe lezeKhaya.

Iziphakamiso esithe sazenza kwiSebe lezeKhaya ukulungisa le ngxaki nesiziphakamisayo apha kwiNdlu ngokubanzi zezi zilandelayo: Esokuqala, sesokuba isebe kufuneka lijonge indlela elinokuyisebenzisa xa lisebenza emaphandleni nakwiindawo ekunzima ukufikelela kuzo. Okwesibini, ukuhla komdla kubasebenzi beSebe lezeKhaya, ngakumbi kimimandla ethile kunye nasi ofisini ezimiselwe okwexeshana kufuneka kuqwalaselwe ngokungxama, yaye kulungiswe.

Okwesithathu, kufuneka kunyuswe umgangatho wabaphathi eziofisini zesebe. Uvavanyo lwabaphathi nabasebenzi kufuneka lwenziwe rhoqo. Okwesine, ukujongwa kwesimo seendawo zokusebenza zesebe lezeKhaya kufuneka kwenziwe ngokukhawuleza okudibene nokungxama. Oku kufuneka kwenziwe kubanjiswene neSebe leMisebenzi kaRhulumente.

Okwesihlanu, zonke iiofisi zeSebe kufuneka zibe nekhompyutha, ngakumbi ezo zisemaphandleni nakwiindawo ezingafikelelekiyo, ukuze zikwazi ukuqhagamshelana neofisi enkulu ePitoli. Okwesithandathu, ukungoneli kwenani labasebenzi eziofisini kufuneka kuqwalaselwe ngokukhawuleza.

Okwesixhenxe, urhwaphilizo eziofisini zeSebe kufuneka kohlwaywe kanobom. Kufuneka abo bamkela ukunyotywa ukuze benze umsebenzi wabo babanjwe bavalelwe yaye bohlwaywe kakhulu. Okwesibhozo, sicela bonke abantu abathe bangamaxhoba okunyotyiswa ukuze bafumane uncedo kwiSebe, baqhagamshelane neofisi yoMhlalingaphambili weKomiti yeSebe lezeKhaya kwezi nombolo zilandelayo: 021 403 3984. Lolweofisi yakhe ke olo ucingo. Olunye ucingo abanokulitsalela lolo lweselfoni oluthi:

083 7873984. Ukanti xa ufuna ukumfaksela, ungamfumana kule nombolo: 021 403

1. Enkosi, Mhlalingaphambili. [Laphela ixesha.][Kwaqhatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa speech follows.)

[Mr M U KALAKO: Mr Chairperson and hon members of Parliament, the visit of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs to the Eastern Cape, especially the area formerly known as Transkei under the apartheid government, showed us that there is a lot that we, as members of the National Assembly, have to do in relation to the national Department of Home Affairs.

It is abundantly clear that without an identification document and a birth certificate for children and without the registration of deaths we cannot enable the people of South Africa to access Government services. We must vigorously support the call that Government has made to the effect that parents must register children so that they have identification documents and also that they need to go to the offices of Home Affairs so as to obtain identification documents. The people of South Africa need to know that Government does not do so in order for them to be able to register for voting, but the Government wants the elderly, the grandmothers and grandfathers, to be able to access their pension or grant, because without the identification document, which states when you were born, you will not be able to access grants.

On the other hand, registering children and the handicapped is also important so that they too can benefit from Government’s monthly grants. People of South Africa, this means that this campaign of going around to people and persuading them, encouraging them to register the children, to collect identity documents and also to register the handicapped, will continue until we are satisfied that all the citizens of South Africa are registered.

On the other hand, we appeal that, once you have obtained your identity document, you go and register for next year’s election so that you can choose the organisation which freed you from the shackles, from the oppression, from the hell of pharaoh, and put you on the road to Canaan, an organisation that swears that it will never rest before you enter Canaan. [Applause.]

There are many problems, experienced by people at Home Affairs, that we looked at during the visit. Some of them that we noticed are as follows: Firstly, children who have no parents have difficulty in being issued with a certificate. Secondly, the names of people, their dates of birth and their ages have been incorrectly recorded in their identity documents, which gives rise to them experiencing problems when they have to get their benefits.

Thirdly, the other venues which the Department of Home Affairs makes use of are not up to standard; the places where the identity documents are kept as well as the tools they use are not up to standard. Fourthly, there are still many identity documents and children’s birth certificates lying in the office of the Department of Home Affairs and these certificates and identity documents are not safe at all. In the Eastern Cape alone there are 34 872 identity documents which have not reached their owners.

Fifthly, there is also the problem of loss of identity documents from the offices of the Department of Home Affairs, because they are being burgled a lot. And that is caused by the fact that they are not safe. Sixthly, taking these identity documents and the birth certificates to their owners is another problem in the Department of Home affairs.

To address this problem, the proposals we made to the Department of Home Affairs, which we also make to this House at large, are as follows: Firstly, the department must look for a method it can use when working in the rural areas and in areas where it is difficult to reach the people. Secondly, the decline in interest among the employees of the Department of Home Affairs, especially in areas that are in certain districts and in offices which have been set up temporarily, must be given attention quickly and must be corrected. Thirdly, the standard of the managers of the offices of the Department of Home Affairs must be raised. Evaluation of managers and workers should happen often. Fourthly, an inspection of the conditions of the workplace of the Department of Home Affairs must be done as quickly as possible. This must happen in collaboration with the national Department of Public Works.

Fifthly, all the offices of the department must have computers, especially those in the rural areas and areas which cannot be reached easily, so that they are able to be in contact with the head office in Pretoria. Sixthly, understaffing in offices should be given attention speedily.

Seventhly, corruption should be severely punishable. Those who accept bribes to do their work should be arrested, detained and punished severely. Eighthly, we ask all those who, in order for them to receive help, were victims of bribery to contact the office of the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs at the following numbers: 021 403 3984. That is his office number. The other number they can use is a cellphone number: 083 787 3984. On the other hand, if you wish to fax him, you can reach him at 021 403 2070. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:

That the Reports be noted.

Reports noted.

                    The House adjourned at 17:19.
                             __________

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bills passed by National Assembly on 18 September 2003:


     (i)     Public Protector Amendment Bill [B  6D  -  2003]  (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


      (ii)    Judicial Officers (Amendment  of  Conditions  of  Service)
              Bill [B 33B - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75). 2.    Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:


 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 16 September 2003 in  terms
     of Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill  as  a  section
     76 Bill:
     (i)     Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill [B  58
          - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76). TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Loan  Agreement  on  the  Municipal  Financial   Management   Technical
 Assistance  Project  between  the  Republic   of   South   Africa   and
 International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, tabled in  terms
 of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

1. The Minister of Public Works:

 Report and Financial Statements of the  Independent  Development  Trust
 for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs: Annual Financial Statements of the Ncera Farms (Proprietary) Limited for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Independent Auditors for 2002-2003.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on the Alteration of Sex Description and Sex Status Bill [B 37 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 17 September 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, having considered the subject of the Alteration of Sex Description and Sex Status Bill [B 37 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 37A - 2003].