National Assembly - 26 November 2003
WEDNESDAY, 26 NOVEMBER 2003 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_____
The House met at 14:05.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS see col 000.
QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.
ELECTION OF MEMBERS OF PAN-AFRICAN PARLIAMENT
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we now come to the election of the Pan- African parliamentarians. I wish to remind hon members of the recommendation contained in the Eighth Report of the Working Group on the African Union, which was considered by the House on 25 September 2003, that, of the five members that are to be elected to serve on the Pan- African Parliament, at least three should be women. We don’t mind if all five are women, but at least three should be.
I have received the following nominations: From the ANC we have the names of Dr Frene Ginwala, Mr M J Mahlangu of the NCOP and Mrs M A A Njobe; from the DA we have received the nomination of Mr C W Eglin; from the IFP we have received the name of Prof H Ngubane; from the New NP, we have received the name of Dr B L Geldenhuys. I just received a note withdrawing the name of a nominee from the ACDP. Are there any further nominations? No further nominations. I will now put the nomination …
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The decision of Parliament was that three of the representatives would come from the majority party and two would represent the opposition parties. May I ask whether you are going to let the governing party elect its three and then let the opposition elect its two. [Interjections.] Because, if one does not do that, it means that the Government is going to choose the opposition representatives.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I am just about to come to the procedure of how this House is going to elect the five parliamentarians. What is going to happen is that this afternoon the other House will also elect the five parliamentarians. That’s how we are going to do it.
We had asked the opposition parties to please make things easier for us by coming together and submitting to us two names. However, we have had more than two nominations from the opposition parties and, therefore, this House is now going to elect the five representatives.
I will now put the nominations in the following order: ANC, DA, IFP, New NP; and, of course, we cancelled the ACDP, who have withdrawn their nominee. Members should vote for each candidate when the name is put. So we are going to vote for each of the names. The candidates with the largest number of votes, within the prescription that at least three shall be women, will be elected to the Pan-African Parliament. The bells will now be rung for three minutes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: …
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, there’s no point of order, the bells are now ringing, hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, I’ll have to do it when the bells stop ringing.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What do you want to say?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I want to know whether it’s possible to
vote yes'' orno’’ for a candidate. Is that what we are doing?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: So it’s possible to vote ``no’’ for a candidate? The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Good.
Question put: That Dr F N Ginwala be elected as a member of the Pan-African Parliament.
AYES - 264: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A
K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A;
Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I;
Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-
Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Daniels, N; Davies, R
H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M;
Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z;
Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fraser-Moleketi, G J;
Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D;
Gous, S J; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D
A; Hendricks, L B; Hlengwa, W M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O
R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M;
Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S
K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S;
Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madasa, Z
L; Madikiza, G T; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E;
Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F;
Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J;
Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N;
Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane,
H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S
M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mdladlana, M M S; Mdlalose, M M; Mentor, M
P; Meruti, V; Mfundisi, I S; Millin, T E; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N;
Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K
M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D;
Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S
D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K
W; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M;
Mshudulu, S A; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I;
Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A;
Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka,
E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L;
Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nonkonyana,
M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli,
B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N;
Olckers, M E; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G
H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D;
Pillay, S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M;
Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Rhoda, R T;
Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Routledge, N C; Rwexana, S P; Saaiman, P
W; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A;
Schoeman, R S; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; September, C C; Shabangu, S;
Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sikakane, M R;
Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Sithole, P; Skhosana, W M;
Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A;
Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J;
Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van
Wyk, Anna; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever,
R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Vos, S C; Woods, G G;
Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 0
ABSTENTIONS - 24: Andrew, K M; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J;
Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Koornhof, N J van
R; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S;
Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P J; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J;
Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Theron, J L; Van Niekerk, A I.
Question put: That Mr M J Mahlangu be elected as a member of the Pan- African Parliament.
AYES - 263: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A
K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A;
Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F;
Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I;
Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange,
J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D
M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z;
Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fraser-Moleketi, G J;
Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D;
Gous, S J; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D
A; Hendricks, L B; Hlengwa, W M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O
R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M;
Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S
K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S;
Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madasa, Z
L; Madikiza, G T; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E;
Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F;
Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J;
Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N;
Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane,
H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S
M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mdladlana, M M S; Mdlalose, M M; Mentor, M
P; Meruti, V; Mfundisi, I S; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnguni, B A;
Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T
R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi,
J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi,
D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Motubatse-
Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthethwa, E
N; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B;
Nash, J H; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene,
N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N;
Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G;
Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B;
Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S
B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Oliphant, G
G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M
G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, S; Radebe, B A;
Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M;
Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S
S; Roopnarain, U; Routledge, N C; Rwexana, S P; Saaiman, P W; Saloojee,
E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S;
Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P;
Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S;
Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Sithole, P; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T;
Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M
M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo,
L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M;
Vadi, I; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, Anna; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van
Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van
der Merwe, S C; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondi, K M;
Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 0
ABSTENTIONS - 26: Andrew, K M; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J;
Buthelezi, M G; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M;
Koornhof, N J van R; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Millin, T E; Morkel, C
M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P J; Selfe, J;
Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Theron,
J L; Van Niekerk, A I.
Question put: That Mrs M A A Njobe be elected as a member of the Pan- African Parliament.
AYES - 260: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A
K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A;
Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F;
Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I;
Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange,
J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D
M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z;
Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fraser-Moleketi, G J;
Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D;
Gous, S J; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D
A; Hendricks, L B; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Jeffery, J H;
Joemat, R R; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, J Z;
Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G
W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P;
Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J;
Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabena, D C;
Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madasa, Z L; Madikiza,
G T; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B;
Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M
S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J;
Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M
M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T;
Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mdladlana, M M S;
Mdlalose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meruti, V; Mfundisi, I S; Mlangeni, A;
Mnandi, P N; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J;
Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A
D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi,
S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K
W; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M;
Mshudulu, S A; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I;
Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A;
Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka,
E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L;
Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nonkonyana,
M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli,
B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N;
Olckers, M E; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G
H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D;
Pillay, S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M;
Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Rhoda, R T;
Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Routledge, N C; Rwexana, S P; Saaiman, P
W; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A;
Schoeman, R S; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; September, C C; Shabangu, S;
Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sikakane, M R;
Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Sithole, P; Skhosana, W M;
Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A;
Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J;
Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van
Wyk, Anna; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever,
R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Vos, S C; Woods, G G;
Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 0
ABSTENTIONS - 25: Andrew, K M; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J;
Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Koornhof, N J van
R; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Millin, T E; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli,
R S; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P J; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W
J; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Theron, J L; Van Niekerk, A I.
Question put: That Mr C W Eglin be elected as a member of the Pan-African Parliament.
AYES - 46: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha,
A J; Buthelezi, M G; Ditshetelo, P H K; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow,
S B; Ferreira, E T; Gibson, D H M; Hlengwa, W M; Kati, J Z; Koornhof, N
J van R; Lowe, C M; Madikiza, G T; Maluleke, D K; Matthews, V J G;
Mfundisi, I S; Millin, T E; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ngema, M V;
Nkabinde, N C; Ntuli, R S; Redcliffe, C R; Roopnarain, U; Routledge, N
C; Schalkwyk, P J; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A;
Seremane, W J; Sibiya, M S M; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S;
Theron, J L; Van Niekerk, A I; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zondi, K
M; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 234: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A
K; Bakker, D M; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Bloem, D V; Booi, M
S; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L;
Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Daniels, N;
Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du
Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M
H; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gillwald, C E;
Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N
B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E;
Jeebodh, T; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W;
Kasienyane, O R; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B
M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S
K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabena, D C;
Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M
N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N;
Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J;
Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N;
Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane,
H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A;
Mbadi, L M; Mdladlana, M M S; Mdlalose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meruti, V;
Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R;
Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala,
R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A;
Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R
M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D;
Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S;
Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndou, R
S; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-
Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J;
Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nonkonyana,
M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli,
B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N;
Olckers, M E; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G
H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D;
Pillay, S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M;
Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Rhoda, R T;
Ripinga, S S; Rwexana, S P; Saaiman, P W; Saloojee, E (Cassim);
Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, R S; September, C C; Shabangu,
S; Sibande, M P; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S;
Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Sithole, P; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T;
Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M
M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo,
L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M;
Vadi, I; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, Anna; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van
Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van
der Merwe, S C; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.
ABSTENTIONS - 5: Blaas, A; Cassim, M F; Chikane, M M; Diale, L N;
Schoeman, E A.
Question put: That Prof H Ngubane be elected as a member of the Pan-African Parliament.
AYES - 270: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Andrew, K M; Arendse,
J D; Asmal, A K; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blanchÿ, J P I;
Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W;
Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P;
Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cronin, J P;
Cwele, S C; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza,
A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du
Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Dyani, M M Z; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Fankomo, F
C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fraser-Moleketi, G J;
George, M E; Gibson, D H M; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D;
Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A;
Hendricks, L B; Hlengwa, W M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O
R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M;
Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J van R; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L
T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D;
Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lowe, C M; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A
N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R;
Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madasa, Z L; Madikiza, G T; Magashule, E
S; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N;
Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C;
Malahlela, M J; Maluleke, D K; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manie, M S;
Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M;
Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathebe,
P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews,
V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mdladlana,
M M S; Mdlalose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meruti, V; Mfundisi, I S; Millin, T
E; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L
J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena,
A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J;
Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M;
Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D;
Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S;
Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndou, R
S; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen,
W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V;
Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N
C; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-
Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-
Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N;
Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J;
Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S;
Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M;
Ratsoma, M M; Redcliffe, C R; Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Routledge, N
C; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schalkwyk, P J; Schneeman, G D;
Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A;
September, C C; Seremane, W J; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S
M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J;
Sithole, P; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo,
B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M;
Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Thabethe, E; Theron, J
L; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P;
Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van
Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vos, S
C; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E;
Zuma, J G.
NOES - 10: Gous, S J; Magazi, M N; Olckers, M E; Pillay, S; Saaiman, P
W; Schippers, J; Schoeman, R S; Simmons, S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van
Wyk, Anna.
ABSTENTIONS - 7: Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Blaas, A; Durand, J;
Geldenhuys, B L; Modise, T R; Rhoda, R T.
Question put: That Dr B L Geldenhuys be elected as a member of the Pan- African Parliament.
AYES - 241: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A
K; Bakker, D M; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D
V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J;
Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V;
Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale,
L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D
C; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H;
Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gillwald, C E;
Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N
B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O
R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M;
Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S
K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabandla, B S;
Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madasa, Z
L; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B;
Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M
S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J;
Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M
M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T;
Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mdladlana, M M S;
Mentor, M P; Meruti, V; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe,
M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R;
Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J;
Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D
M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Motubatse-
Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthethwa, E
N; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B;
Nash, J H; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-
Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J;
Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nonkonyana,
M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli,
B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, S N;
Olckers, M E; Oliphant, G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G
H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D;
Pillay, S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M;
Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Ratsoma, M M; Rhoda, R T;
Ripinga, S S; Routledge, N C; Rwexana, S P; Saaiman, P W; Saloojee, E
(Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S;
September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N;
Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Sithole, P; Skhosana, W M;
Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A;
Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J;
Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van
Wyk, Anna; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever,
R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Zita, L; Zondo, R P;
Zuma, J G.
NOES - 41: Andrew, K M; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Eglin,
C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Ferreira, E T; Gibson, D H M; Hlengwa, W
M; Lowe, C M; Madikiza, G T; Maluleke, D K; Mdlalose, M M; Mfundisi, I
S; Millin, T E; Morkel, C M; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A H; Ngema, M V;
Nkabinde, N C; Ntuli, R S; Redcliffe, C R; Roopnarain, U; Schalkwyk, P
J; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J;
Sibiya, M S M; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Theron, J L; Van
Niekerk, A I; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zondi, K M; Zulu, N E.
ABSTENTIONS - 3: Aucamp, C; Koornhof, N J van R; Matthews, V J G.
Dr F N Ginwala, Mr M J Mahlangu, Mrs M A A Njobe, Prof H Ngubane and Dr
B L Geldenhuys accordingly elected as members of the Pan-African
Parliament.
CONSIDERATION OF TENTH REPORT OF WORKING GROUP ON AFRICAN UNION Ms N S MTSWENI: Ngiyathokoza ... [Thanks ...] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, those who are leaving the House, please do so as quietly as possible. Proceed, hon Mtsweni.
Ms N S MTSWENI: Ngiyathokoza sekela likaSomlomo. Angithathe leli thuba ngithome ngokuthokoza uMongameli noma asele akhambile nje. Ngithi Mongameli ngawe umgade lo wahlanzela abaneempoto. Sisathoma nawe lapha ku-African Renaissance wathatha igadango eliqakatheke khulu kwamambala. Wabuya la ku- African Union Mongameli wakhamba nathi wagadanga waya phambili. Silapha namhlanje sikhuluma ngePan-African Parliament kungombana wena Mongameli wagadanga kwezwakala. (Translation of Ndebele paragraph follows.)
[Ms N S MTSWENI: Deputy Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank the President, though he has already left. I say, Mr President, these opportunities have presented themselves to people who can use them. When we started with you here in the African Renaissance you took a very important step. Mr President, you came back to the African Union and marched on with us. As we are here today talking about the Pan-African Parliament, it is because, Mr President, you took a visible step.]
In presenting the Tenth Report of the Working Group on the African Union, I want to pause and echo the words of our Deputy President in his opening speech during the meeting of the African parliaments in July this year. I quote:
The dream of a continent in harmony with the needs of its people inspired the formation of both the African Union and the Pan-African Parliament. One of the most important instruments of the African Union is the protocol on the Pan-African Parliament. The Pan-African Parliament will be a forum where the voices of African people will be heard.
The need for the establishment of a Pan-African Parliament arises from the aspirations of people like Kwame Nkrumah, who understood the importance of political unity under Pan-Africanism and worked very hard, alongside a number of other African visionaries, in fulfilling this objective.
The Pan-African Parliament is certainly an institution which will further African unity. It is accepted that the main weakness of the OAU was unity at the top amongst heads of state and presidents. Many decisions were taken by the heads of state which did not filter down to individual countries and states.
There is a wide acceptance that the parliamentary system is the best form of government and the Pan-African Parliament will encourage the establishment of democratic parliaments throughout the continent. The parliamentary system encourages accountability to the people and there are countries in Africa where accountability and transparency are still lacking.
The African continent is in serious socioeconomic difficulty and has been marginalised in the global economy. This creates a need to encourage multilateralism and the Pan-African Parliament could be the voice for unifying the continent and making it a unified continent in international forums.
The vision of the Pan-African Parliament must be congruent with the aspirations and needs of the African people, for example the improvement of quality of life, human dignity, human security, sustainable development and deriving the benefits of development.
The character of the Pan-African Parliament will be the model of democracy and good governance on the African continent. It will, therefore, embrace political and social plurality, democracy, representation, transparency, gender equality and popular participation.
In dealing with the election of the delegation to the Pan-African Parliament, the protocol states that representation of each parliament shall reflect the diversity of political opinion in each national parliament. It further states, in Article 6, that the delegates to the Pan- African Parliament shall vote in their personal and independent capacity.
We hope that the delegates will understand this sentence very clearly because it does not mean that they should forget that they are sent by the South African Parliament, and would thus represent us. When other delegates in the Pan-African Parliament look at them, we want them to see the democratic Parliament of South Africa through these delegates.
In the working group’s eighth report we recommended that three of the five delegates to the Pan-African Parliament be women. This report was adopted by this House on 25 September 2003. The House has therefore endorsed this by adopting the report.
These members will represent our Parliament rather than a particular House of our Parliament. The NCOP will also be represented in the delegation, as we have just voted upon, with the inclusion of Mr Mahlangu. Women in Africa have made their mark. The South African revolution of the ANC has been the major contributor to this decision.
If we pause and look back at the history of women in Africa, we are confident that this is indeed a big achievement. We hope that other states will vote just like we did. To think that only men were allowed to stand for elections or had a right to elect or be elected and that women were looked upon as minors or inferior to hold such a position where important decisions were made for different states and continents is unheard-of today.
Today as I speak and as we have elected delegates to the Pan-African Parliament we, at the same time, applaud the work and progress made in making sure that women of Africa are part of this achievement and they are part of the decision-making process. They have been emancipated and their mind-sets have been changed. They participate in making the laws that will govern the whole continent, side by side with men, making sure that gender issues are on the African agenda.
In further emphasising the turnaround in the role of women we look back to the resolutions made during the election of the commission, when it was resolved that half of the commissioners should be women.
Women on the continent have struggled. We therefore have to applaud and defend the achievements they have made so far. We all know that it is not only in South Africa that we constitute more than 5O% but, in the whole of the continent, women constitute a percentage greater than 50%.
We therefore cannot allow ourselves to live like we did yesterday when there is light at the end of the tunnel. It has been a long and demanding process for the working group and staff from the first to the tenth report that we are debating today. We are approaching a state of finalising the process of establishing the Pan-African Parliament. We are proud of the work that we have done so far, in the meetings, the workshops, and the seminars that were organised in making this process successful.
The working group therefore wants to thank this House for successfully electing the five members to the Pan-African Parliament and we appreciate the fact that the gender representation was so high. I want to say again: We hope that other states in Africa will do as the South Africans have done, so that we can have the number of women that we need in the Pan- African Parliament; not only to take care of gender issues but also to participate in substantive issues.
In closing, I want to thank the Presiding Officers, in particular the Speaker, who has been the chair of the committee, and the Deputy Speaker. They were always there and guided us correctly when we were trying to finalise this process. I also want to thank the Deputy President and hon members. [Applause.]
Mr C W EGLIN: Madam Deputy Speaker, the tenth report, which we are discussing at the moment, primarily dealt with the question of the election of five members to represent South Africa at the Pan-African Parliament. Well, that election has taken place, and I just want to say that the ANC has had its way, and there you are - that’s what it is - and just to leave it like that. I want to say on this that we will watch with interest how the ANC nominees perform, other than the lady on our left who was going to be elected because she was the only lady on the opposition side - that is Hariett Ngubane - who was elected in her own right. [Interjections.]
Be that as it may, those members are in for an interesting time. We mentioned that when we discussed this the other day. This is the question of the ambiguity as to the mandate of the members who go there, bearing in mind that when they go there they will be going to an interim Pan-African Parliament, to be constructed in that way for five years, and thereafter to be constructed in a different way.
What is interesting about the members who go there is that they are elected by Parliament, elected by the ANC. They don’t represent Parliament. They are, in terms of the Act or the protocol, there to represent the country. Since the countries of Africa will be represented by five people, we were merely an electoral college, rigged to get it right for the ANC; an electoral college and that’s what we are in terms of the protocol.
Thirdly, this has to reflect the diversity of political opinions. Whether it reflects the diversity of political opinions in their correct proportions or in their totality is a matter for discussion and debate. But they reflect different political opinions, and clearly the intention is that those views should be expressed as different political opinions on the Pan-African Parliament.
Fourthly, it says that although you are elected by Parliament, although you represent the country and reflect the diversity of political opinions, ``each member shall vote in his personal and independent capacity’’. So, each member goes there as an independent and is not tied to a caucus, or to a party, or to a formal mandate. In terms of the protocol, each member will vote in line with his personal and independent capacity. Having said that, there is another provision. This is that members can be recalled by their national parliament at any time. So you have a dilemma of members going there, representing not Parliament but the country, acting in their personal and independent capacity, but, nevertheless, subject to recall by the national parliament itself.
I just raised this as a practical situation of five different, call than ``mandates’’, of the people who are going to represent South Africa at the Pan-African Parliament. I hope that it works. I hope that South Africans will make a contribution, in particular to strengthening democracy around Africa. I believe that the Pan-African Parliament, provided not only South African delegates, but all of the delegates, realise that although it is only a consultative and advisory body, there is power in the words of people on a public platform and in a public forum like a parliament, can speak out against corruption, against the abuse of power, against the violation of human rights. It will have an effect, not just in the Pan- African Parliament, but around Africa. And, if they speak up for accountable government, if they speak up for sound governance, if they speak up for the ordinary people - the people who for five years in South Africa have waited for treatment for Aids - if they could speak up for them by the time they go there, I believe that this can make a difference to Africa.
On balance, whatever the problems are about the Pan-African Parliament - and there will be many problems of an administrative and of a technical nature - I believe that, provided the members who go there realise their responsibility and are prepared to speak up and to speak out and not be mere lackeys of political parties or electoral colleges, you can make the AU a more democratic institution than it is today. I believe that it can have a ripple and a knock-on effect and that democracy will be deepened in the countries right around Africa. [Applause.]
Ms M M MDLALOSE: Madam Deputy Speaker, first of all I would like to congratulate the five members of Parliament who will be representing us at the Pan-African Parliament.
Women have played the most important role in the emancipation of the African continent from colonial rule as well as in the overall development of Africa. They are the mothers of the sons and daughters who laid down their lives so that we, as the continent, can enjoy the fruits of freedom. It is against this background that we welcome the provision of the African parliaments protocol with regard to the representation of women in the Pan- African Parliament delegation. This is a clear sign of maturity in the continent of Africa, as we are able to lay down gender representation as the criterion in the formation of one of the most important organs of the African Union.
The ratification of the Pan-African Parliament protocol by the majority of the member states is a clear sign of commitment to the unity of Africa and a realisation by the people of Africa that we need to work collectively for the development of this continent. The Pan-African Parliament is going to be a powerful organ in reinforcing peace initiatives and other developmental programmes for the African continent, given the fact that a parliament is a binding institution on its members who are bound by common laws and principles which have been agreed to by them. A defaulting member of the said parliament will have to answer to the whole body politic of the Pan-African Parliament as to why they have defaulted on what they have ratified and agreed to in the first place.
Nepad, we believe, will reap more rewards from this institution as it will institutionalise the programmes of African development and therefore push forward what the pioneers, among whom is our President, have envisaged for our mother continent.
This institution should also strive to protect our indigenous knowledge and wealth, thus enhancing our African intellectual capital, which will also market us as one of the great peoples amongst the people of the world. The natural resources that course the belly of our continent and our sea bed can turn Africa into an economic giant of the world, provided that there is co-operation amongst the peoples of Africa.
The Pan-African Parliament will lead to the promotion of democracy and good governance, making it a forum for the unification of African states. This will be a new model of democracy, while promoting the principles of the African Renaissance.
The IFP hopes that this parliament will be a unique step for the African continent. With those words, the IFP supports the report.
Mev ANNA VAN WYK: Agb Mevrou die Speaker, vandag is inderdaad ‘n mylpaal in die politieke geskiedenis van Afrika. Ek wil graag my kollegas gelukwens met hul verkiesing tot die eerste Pan-Afrikaanse Parlement en hulle alle sterkte toewens vir hul termyn. Ek het volle vertroue dat hulle Suid-Afrika na die beste van hul vermoë op daardie forum sal dien. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mrs ANNA VAN WYK: Hon Madam Speaker, today is indeed a milestone in the political history of South Africa. I would like to congratulate my colleagues on their election to the first Pan-African Parliament and wish them the very best for their term of service. I have every confidence that they will serve South Africa to the best of their ability in that forum.]
According to the Abuja Treaty establishing the African Economic Community, which remains an important precept, such a community is to be established gradually in six stages over a transitional period not exceeding 34 years.
The first of these stages would be to strengthen the existing regional economic communities. This in itself would present a challenge of rationalisation and co-ordination. The second stage deals, inter alia, with strengthening sectoral integration at regional and continental levels. The fifth stage envisages the establishment of an African common market. Only in the sixth stage, concurrent with the setting up of an African monetary unit and a single African bank and currency, would the final stages occur of setting up structures of a Pan-African Parliament.
In the event, in our case, it worked out differently. What seems like a logical order of things is in a sense being reversed in our process.
‘n Mens sou die vraag kon vra of dit nie beter sou wees as hierdie Abuja modaliteite meer noukeurig gevolg kon word nie, maar ‘n proses het sy eie logika en soos die inwerkingstelling van die bepalings van die Afrika-unie se grondwet verloop het, is nuwe imperatiewe waargeneem en insigte in hierdie realiteite het ook ontwikkel. Dit het duidelik geword dat ‘n Pan- Afrika Parlement ‘n noodsaaklike katalisator sal wees in die bereiking van die doelwitte van die AU, asook van Nepad. Die ongelykhede wat daar in Afrika is, word deur sy komponente en besluitnemende liggame weerspieël.
Die PAP self sal ‘n boublok vir Afrika-ontwikkeling moet wees en ‘n sentrale kanaal vir kommunikasie na die parlemente en publiek van die lidlande. Voorts sal die blote bestaan van hierdie liggaam waarskynlik die impuls wees om meer lande met ‘n groter mate van geesdrif vir die AU te vul. Maar belangriker nog, die PAP kan ‘n betekenisvolle instrument wees om dieper inbinding tot die Nepad-inisiatief teweeg te bring.
Ten slotte wil die Nuwe NP graag erkenning gee aan die leierskap van die Speaker, wat die proses met groot bekwaamheid dryf. Suid-Afrika kan met reg trots wees op sy eerste vroulike Speaker.
Ons steun graag die aanvaarding van hierdie verslag. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[One could ask if it would not be better if these Abuja modalities could be followed more accurately, but a process has its own logic and in the course of the implementation of the provisions of the constitution of the African Union new imperatives were noted and insights into these realities also developed. It became clear that a Pan-African Parliament would be an essential catalyst in achieving the goals of the African Union, as well as those of Nepad. The inequalities in Africa are reflected by its components and decision-making bodies.
The PAP itself will have to be a building block for African development and a central channel for communication with the parliaments and public of the member countries. Furthermore, the very existence of this body would probably be the impulse to infuse more countries with a greater deal of enthusiasm for the AU. But, and this is even more important, the PAP can be a meaningful instrument to bring about greater cohesion with regard to the Nepad initiative.
In conclusion, the New NP would like to give recognition to the leadership of the Speaker, who is driving the process with great ability. South Africa can be justifiably proud of its first female Speaker.
We have pleasure in supporting the adoption of this report.] Adv Z L MADASA: Deputy Speaker, it is unfortunate that, after having done so much work, we are given little time to talk. Anyway, I would like to, firstly, congratulate the delegates who have been elected. Secondly, I wish to acknowledge the leadership of the Speaker and Deputy Speaker in the whole process. We are excited to see the fruition of the launch of the PAP after such hard work. We can now see that the ideas of the African Union are no longer just on paper but we are witnessing the fruition and the coming into being of the PAP.
On behalf of the ACDP, I would like to endorse the report and thank all members of the committee. We wish the new delegates to continue the good work in the future. Thank you.
Mr G T MADIKIZA: Deputy Speaker and hon members, I must also take this opportunity to congratulate the hon members who have just been elected to represent the South African Parliament in the Pan-African Parliament. The UDM endorses the recommendations of the Tenth Report of the Working Group on the African Union, especially in terms of the reporting mechanisms. It is vital that a committee be established to ensure that once members have been elected to the PAP, accountability and two-way communication between this House and the new PAP is established.
Our experience as an established but still young Parliament can add much to the growth and development of the PAP. We are all agreed that this new forum represents a golden opportunity to deepen democracy in Africa and create a stronger, more unified voice for the people of the continent.
The members on whom the honour and duty falls to represent South Africa in the PAP must embrace this opportunity with enthusiasm and dedication. They have to represent the best of what this House has to offer to the continent.
We cannot settle for mediocrity because that would be to doom the PAP to the status of a glorified talk shop. The citizens of our country and continent deserve our best talents and expertise. Thank you. Mrs M A SEECO: Deputy Speaker, the pomp and splendour of the establishment of the African Union last year is history as of now. Work has to begin and that is why we elected our delegates a while ago. We look forward to our five colleagues taking their places in the midst of other African members of parliaments from the mother continent.
We fully support the notion that the organ should not just be a talk shop. Members should participate effectively and fully on issues such as development and integration of the continent. We wish our delegates well during their tenure in the mother of all parliaments of Africa, and hope that, much as they may vote in their personal and independent capacities, they will always put the interests of South Africa first.
Motswana o rile moremogolo go betlwa wa taola, wa motho o a ipetla. [The Motswana of yesteryear said that one should make an effort to develop oneself, and not always wait for others to do it for him or her.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Deputy Speaker, I take this opportunity and congratulate the five representatives elected to the PAP. The MF supports the five members elected from among ourselves to take up the representative challenge to serve on the PAP. We are confident that with these hon members, the PAP will be strengthened and be at its best.
Through our diversity, the PAP may institute overall African integration that shall unite Africa into a strong global competitor. With diversity we face the risk of being divided but, through our example, it is hoped that we will use our diversity positively.
Poverty is a major challenge which rapes Africa and its people. The MF feels that economic integration would play an important role in overcoming it. Members elected from various member countries will hopefully be able to operate harmoniously and co-operatively throughout Africa. The MF supports the elected members of the PAP. Thank you.
Mr M F CASSIM: Hon Deputy Speaker, many African countries have been urging South Africa to put forward its candidacy to have the PAP hosted here. This is because of, first, the constitutional dispensation we have; second, the role and primacy accorded to women parliamentarians generally and specifically in driving the PAP process as exemplified by the role of the hon Speaker and Deputy Speaker, amongst others; third, the role given to our Parliament to initiate processes and to hold the executive accountable, and fourth, the freedom of speech, of assembly and to organise politically that we enjoy.
On account of all of these, our impact on the PAP will be visible and substantial. About this, I have no doubt. Let us be really good role models. I support the 10th report.
Mr D J SITHOLE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I must first express a word of congratulations to those who were elected. We also express the hope that those who did not make it will find it in themselves to accept that, whilst they reduce the National Assembly to an electoral college, we did this to the best of our abilities as public representatives who were elected by our people to do exactly that. [Applause.]
I am delighted to participate in the debate on the 10th report of the working group. Looking back I am sure that those who started the work on the protocol on the Pan-African Parliament in those early days were all excited to discuss what then appeared as a dream - and just a dream - but now is a reality.
It was a difficult road where hope and persuasion played a critical role. We had not only to persuade this House to create this working group, but we had to work hard to get our colleagues in other parliaments to ratify and deposit the instruments to realise the creation of the Pan-African Parliament.
There were those who felt, at some point, that we had taken a wrong approach in emphasising the regeneration of the African continent. It is a choice we made as the ANC and the South African Government that, in order for us to grow and live in peace, the regeneration of the African continent should be at the centre of our success. We have, without fail, under the able leadership of the ANC’s presiding officers present today, submitted reports of the working group.
I want to highlight a few areas that are critical for this House to take note of. Maybe before I do that I must first congratulate the five delegates who were elected to serve on behalf of South Africa in the Pan- African Parliament. I hope that in their work in the PAP they will keep the commitment of South Africa to focus in its endeavour on the building of a culture of good governance, a respect for a human rights democracy, peace and stability.
These principles will remain meaningless unless we make them a reality through our work and commitment to deliver a better life to the African poor and the poverty-stricken masses. It is important for the five delegates to note that they carry a huge responsibility on their shoulders, which is the hope of our people. It is this hope that we must not disappoint. It is our people that look upon this continental body to evolve and address their needs.
Let us come back to issues that I wanted to raise in this debate. The protocol states that once members are elected by their parliaments or appointed by deliberative organs they will, however, vote as individuals. If this assertion is not properly understood, it will, at some point, create difficulty for delegates when they do not know how to vote. Whilst these delegates will vote as individuals, they will, at all times, exercise their right within the broader considerations, not only of our country, but also of our region and the continent as a whole.
The question of accountability presents a challenge to this Parliament as to how we create the mechanism for these delegates to keep the South African Parliament on track with the deliberations of the Pan-African Parliament. The question is: Do we want to continue to work on an ad hoc basis as we have been working up until now? Members must remember that the working group was established by a resolution of Parliament and when its life came to an end, we came back to Parliament to extend its life. Is that the best way for us to work?
The working group has, of course, created a legacy of ensuring that all its reports are debated in this Parliament. I am aware that there are those who see the debates about these reports as mere nonsense. I can assure hon members that it is necessary and critical nonsense to ensure that the issues of the African Union are not confined to those who serve in the working group but are issues that will be discussed by all South Africans. I hope that whatever we put in place will continue this legacy of reporting back, and maybe other committees of Parliament will learn and improve the mechanism.
But the question must be asked: How do we ensure the process of clustering committees that takes into account the new challenges imposed by the changing realities? As we continue to grapple with this issue as to how to make parliamentary committees function efficiently, we must avoid pretending that life is static and changes are therefore not necessary. I must submit that it is not only the Working Group on the African Union that we must consider. We must anticipate issues that will be brought up by the developments in the SADC, PF and the SADC Parliament in the future.
In recent seminars in the continent, parliamentarians have been suggesting committees of some sort to focus on Nepad, as part of our daily occupation as members of Parliament. If we all accept that a particular emphasis must be placed on building a better understanding of Nepad amongst MPs and the public in general, we must then carefully consider the following: How do we, without falling into a trap of creating committees for everything, deal with this problem?
In our enthusiasm we must resist the temptation of creating too many committees for every issue that arises. We hope that the presiding officers will assist in ensuring that we desist from the temptation and our desire to form committees. As we engage on this issue, I hope that all of us will find a creative means to utilise what we have and create new structures where we need them. The report recommends that we should exclude SADC, PF and Parliament, as opposed to our initial report, that is report number eight. However, that should not be understood to mean that the mechanism we put in place for the processing of the African Union and related issues must operate in absolute exclusion of the ongoing discussion and possible development at the level of SADC.
Debate concluded.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
TOWARDS A TEN-YEAR REVIEW: ASSESSING OUR ACHIEVEMENTS DURING THE FIRST DECADE OF FREEDOM AND PREPARING FOR THE CHALLENGES AHEAD
(Subject for Discussion)
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Madam Speaker, hon members and comrades, the days of darkness are over. Together we have ended apartheid minority rule. The rays of dawn have begun to light up our horizon, the light of freedom is challenging the departing darkness of apartheid and the dark days of despair have given way to the season of hope.
Nearly 10 years ago, when we elected our first democratic Government, we were challenged to put the policies and institutions in place to bring about a better life for all. Today, we as South Africans enjoy better conditions of peace and dignity. We have started to build a united nation, joining hands without regard to race, colour and gender. Each of our communities is free, at least, to express its linguistic and cultural identity in conditions of diversity, with each free to assume its equal place within our new nation without discrimination.
Inspired by a new patriotism, we can truly say that South Africa belongs to all who live in it. The majority of South Africans who were victims of apartheid are starting to enjoy a better quality of life. Women, workers, rural communities and people with disabilities are, for the first time, receiving focused attention in Government programmes.
In Gauteng, the Alexandra and Katorus Urban Renewal Projects are taking place through housing developments, new complexes, the rejuvenation of the Jukskei River and road infrastructure. Equally so, in the Northern Cape province, before 1994, there existed no multipurpose community centres. Today, these centres are in Galeshewe, in Limpopo and in Giyani, and there are also places for people to apply for IDs within walking distance.
In the KwaZulu-Natal province, the following milestones have been achieved: In our townships of Inanda, today they have two libraries, they have four clinics and they have five community halls. All of that since 1994. New housing developments took place in Bombaai, in Newtown and others. Even a business centre has been established. The revitalisation of Phoenix and the Gandhi settlement are now major tourism attractions.
One of the milestones has been the successful land claim victories by the Makuleke people. Today, they even have tarred roads in rural areas in Limpopo, and electricity in the deep rural areas of Malobeni and Mafefe. Free houses have been established in the deep rural areas of Limpopo.
Every South African enjoys the respect of all nations of the world. We have, as a country, built relations or friendships with the international community in search of a better world.
Should these changes go on? This is the central question that all of us will have to answer to our people. We, as the ANC, will certainly answer ``yes’’. We will urge all of you to do so and to join the national partnership to build a winning nation through an intensified offensive for transformation, reconstruction and development.
To this effect, our public services are also being transformed to reflect clean, transparent and good governance. It is, indeed, encouraging to notice that our Public Service has been undergoing a thorough transformation over the past few years to make it more efficient and to effect full transformation from instruments of control and manipulation and to serve as a vehicle for building our country.
We are, indeed, happy that even in the Eastern Cape, good progress has been made with the departmental turnaround plans and the transversal projects to improve service delivery, to root out corruption there, and enhance good governance. The support for both the plans and the projects is spearheaded by an interim management team which established dedicated teams to assist the departments of education, health, roads and public works and social development, as well as teams to assist with specific challenges.
We have, indeed, created a better life for the youth of our country. Through the National Youth Commission and the Umsobomvu Fund, it has been possible to provide some guidance to departments and interact with senior management to ensure that youth development is supported internally. The partnership between the National Youth Commission, the Umsobomvu Fund and the SA Youth Council has developed a strong impetus for the decision we took in terms of establishing and implementing a national youth service.
We’ve also improved the lives of women in our country. For the first time, the rights of women are guaranteed by South African law. Women have taken up their places in government, the public sector and all areas of life, as part of the overall transformation in our country.
We have made, considerable progress in the rural areas. In the ANC, we have ended the practice of using the countryside as dumping grounds where rural people are subjected to poverty and abuse and denied their citizenship and dignity. The ANC has made great strides in reaching rural areas and targeting the nodes of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme in the poorer provinces. To date, 28% of projects in the rural nodes are in KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape and Limpopo province, where poverty is at its highest.
The ANC-led Government has adopted a comprehensive programme for the empowerment of the disabled, and legislation now prohibits discrimination in the workplace. Today, the disabled themselves serve actively on government bodies to promote the interests of the disabled.
In our quest for achieving a better life for all, we need to build a new patriotism through the building of partnerships with our Government. These partnerships with our people reflect the commitment and passion to create a better life for all, and must be based on a common commitment to building a better life for all. However, Government’s partnerships are not limited to the youth and the others I have mentioned, but also include the Letsema Volunteer Campaign, the Imbizo Outreach Programmes, the establishment, indeed, in each of our areas, of ward committees in municipalities and the very important Nedlac processes. We have discussed the Expanded Public Works Programme, the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, Urban Renewal Programme and IDPs, just to mention a few.
Yes, there are challenges. Some of these challenges are to create enough jobs for those who seek work, addressing the remaining backlogs in water, electricity, and sanitation infrastructure and improving the quality of further education and training programmes. For instance, in meeting our water requirements on a sustainable basis, it is estimated that, by the year 2025, one in every three of the world’s population would be affected by a shortage of fresh water. Therefore, this year, 2003, is designated as the UN International Year of Fresh Water.
One of the clear conclusions of the Government’s document Towards a Ten Year Review is that each and every one of us in the provinces, local government and traditional authorities has to continue to work together with the national Government as partners in order to discharge our mandate to our people to create a prosperous, healthy and vibrant multicultural society.
I am of the view that the policies of the Government are the correct responses to the challenges that our country is facing. I want to reiterate that we, as Government, will continue to fight for change and to speed up our efforts to ensure a better life for all. We need to speed up provision of services to build on what we have achieved and to make a bigger impact on the daily lives of people.
We will continue to improve quality of life, create a better life for women, for youth, for rural people, for children, for the aged and for the disabled. We will continue to work together with our people to change our society and to improve the lives of our people faster than ever before.
As President Thabo Mbeki said in his New Year’s address to us, in 2003, ``the sun will continue to shine on the South African people as we build this nonracial, nonsexist and democratic country, instilling in all a shared sense of nationhood and human solidarity.’’ Indeed, the sun has shone on all South Africans. [Applause.]
Mr W J SEREMANE: Deputy Chair, Minister, and hon members, I believe it is appropriate, in the light of the UN recognised and underwritten 16 Days of Activism campaign for no violence against women, to pay tribute to women, that is young and old, and the children, as an affirmation of their fundamental rights to respect, dignity, safety and security, and full participation in matters that affect our collective destiny as a people and a nation.
The issue before us for discussion is in line with the imperative to reflect on or evaluate action and the related outcomes of that action. Reflection, action and reflection, the cliché goes, but it is so true.
In this first decade of freedom, we have indeed changed the political landscape of our country drastically. The beacons of political struggle for freedom say it all. The outcome of these efforts, culminating in our Constitution and its entrenched fundamental rights, is something to be proud of - considering our sad, fragmented and unjust past.
We now move on to a better country, to a better future for all citizens of our country, guided and guarded by this selfsame Constitution. As they say, the rest is history.
We need to acknowledge the past without harping on it ad infinitum. We need to recognise the great strides made and the impact of such strides on the lives of people, especially the people on the ground. A modest pat on our collective back is in order, but excessive self-congratulatory indulgence is counterproductive. I want to repeat that we have positively and drastically changed the political landscape of our country.
Our best achievement, considering the kind of past we come from, is our Constitution, with its entrenched fundamental rights and concomitant institutions. The only way to sustain this achievement is to jealously guard and uphold the selfsame Constitution which ought to dictate our ongoing development and actions.
It is now possible for people to realise that they can access clean water and health services, enjoy the benefits of electrification and communication systems, and a variety of other services.
It is not my wish to usurp the functions of the GCIS by unfolding the scroll of Government programmes. The Government is obliged to deliver; in fact, to deliver effectively and consistently. This is no favour it is doing the people. At this juncture, what really needs to be done is to qualitatively look at delivery programmes, to detect the weak points with the aim of improving performance and ensuring sustainability in the light of good governance and transparency.
The challenges, among others, that remain are within the spheres of health, especially when we think of the HIV/Aids pandemic, unemployment and the resultant poverty, crime, urban decay and rural development, including housing.
Much still needs to be done to take preventative primary health care services to even the remotest areas of our country. Existing and rural clinics, health care centres and hospitals need more support, resources and even conducive working conditions for personnel - medical and otherwise.
The HIV pandemic is not easing either; instead we are facing unprecedented difficulties in this area. Thanks should be given that sanity seems to be prevailing now regarding the roll-out of antiretrovirals. Here the Government and all and sundry should take note of the lessons learnt. Procrastination and political posturing can be detrimental to the very existence of society. However, it is better late than never.
I need not repeat that crime remains one of the scourges that need to be fought tooth and nail. Not enough has been done thus far. In fact, perpetrators of crime seem to be contemptuous of the law and all judiciary institutions. The police certainly deserve more support from Government and the public to successfully contain and combat crime. … [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Deputy Chairperson, I regret that the majority of those who will hear what I have to say are the empty benches.
There are two trends within the South African public debate, and indeed in our national psyche, namely the intertwined trends of optimism and pessimism. These two trends are aptly collaborated and motivated by the findings of our Government’s 10-year review report. The report correctly highlights our successes in democratising not only the state, but the whole of our society and adopting some of the best legislation, administrative programmes and Government initiatives possible.
However, even though we have done the right things, our results have not been as expected, and the report itself highlights major shortcomings in the most critical areas of governance, such as unemployment, poverty in rural areas, economic growth, and crime. These four areas are major crises which ought to force us to reflect seriously and critically on what was not done sufficiently well.
In addition, one could add to those four areas two other major crises which are ravaging our society at all levels, namely the crisis of HIV/Aids, and corruption, in respect of which we also need to accept that our insufficient results show the inadequacy of what has been done.
Our public finances have been well managed and the state is in a sound financial position. This, by itself, has not promoted economic growth, nor can it do so. Without economic growth there has been no employment generation.
The measures recently announced by the President are also aimed at promoting short-term employment, and we know that in the long term these are unlikely to stimulate growth, but may actually inhibit it. Replacing machines with people is politically appealing, but is neither self- sustaining nor economically viable, as the people who produce machinery will lose their jobs, and the industrial basis of this country will shrink.
One of our Government’s major failures has been that of not having developed a plan for a new industrial basis for South Africa, which would be capable of not only producing all the machinery we need, but also exporting it, which is the only viable way of generating employment on a sustainable basis.
For 10 years, we in the IFP have advocated the need for implementing drastic measures to promote economic growth. It is painful to read reports that the President is considering liberalising our telecommunication field because he has been pressurised to do so by foreign investors when we have been pointing to the need to liberalise all sectors of our economy for almost 10 years.
There is no reason why we should all have to pay exorbitant prices for our telecommunications because of our protectionism, cartels, and monopolies. This is an example of how many of our policies have failed to achieve the intended necessary results because of hidden reservations in pursuing courageous measures of economic growth and employment generation.
The same applies in respect of the fight against crime, which is something that we could have won if the political will existed to do what it takes to achieve these results. Greater willingness to deal with crime has now emerged, because of pressures from foreign investors. However, I wonder why we should do the right things only because we are pressurised to do so by foreign investors, rather than doing them for our own sake, and because they are right.
I was a victim of a car hijacking, was shot at and miraculously escaped with my life. My family and I continue to pay more than we should for our telecommunications. We must do what is right in the real interests of all South Africa’s people, not because we are awakened to it when our positions become untenable, and when confronted by foreign investors in international meetings and venues.
The 10-year review should offer the opportunity not only to take pride in what had been done, but also to consider the unfinished agenda of what remains to be done. This agenda includes the need to change how we go about developing policies so as to avoid in future the type of half measures and compromises which have thus far prevented real results from being achieved.
It is obvious that in the past 10 years we have put in place a good legislative framework. We must now make it work and, for this, profound changes may be necessary, and we as a country must have the courage, the vision and the determination to bring them about, failing which, we shall have failed the many rightful expectations we have created with our liberation and in the 10 years which followed it. I thank you.
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson, I am glad that the hon Deputy Minister and his family survived the car hijacking incident.
During the mid-sixties an American, Allen Drury, wrote a book about South Africa called A Very Strange Society. To a certain extent, we are still a very strange society. Where else in the world would a deputy president be investigated by a parliamentary committee, the public prosecutor be subjected to a judicial inquiry and the chief of police be threatened with having to spend the night in jail? Embarrassing as it may be, it clearly shows that our young democracy has finally arrived, that we have a democracy in the true sense of the word, where nobody, but nobody, is above the law.
This debate is about the performance of the Government for the past 10 years of democracy. It may be, however, worth our while briefly to revisit the events which resulted in the first democratic election of
- In his unfinished autobiography, Joe Slovo writes the following:
The apartheid power block was no longer able to continue ruling in the old way and was genuinely seeking some break with the past. At the same time, we were clearly not dealing with a defeated enemy and early revolutionary seizure of power by the liberation movement could not be realistically posed.
It was this acknowledgement which led to the realisation by both the ANC and the then NP that it was better to negotiate a settlement than to allow the country to go up in flames. The NP at the time, of course, was accused of having sold out the country by the Conservative Party, that has now joined the ranks of the Freedom Front Plus and, of course, by those AWB members who are currently still supporting the DA. [Interjections.] I am, however, proud to belong to one of the parties whose leaders had the vision and courage to save South Africa from disaster and I also firmly believe that the very same recipe of constructive co-operation should be used for the main challenges facing our country as highlighted in the publication Towards A Ten Year Review.
Unemployment is undoubtedly the biggest challenge facing South Africa today. In most developed countries, small and medium enterprises are the biggest job creators, but South Africa falls well short in this regard because, in our country, small and medium enterprises contribute about half of total employment. Spectacular incentives are needed to stimulate small and medium enterprises with a view to creating thousands of new jobs. The exportation of intellectual capital is costing us dearly in this regard. The Minister of Finance said in Parliament that one of the big furniture removal companies told him that for the first time in many years they had moved more people back to South Africa than out of the country. Now, of course, this is good news. But the bad news, however, is that many of the young skilled entrepreneurs who are leaving South Africa to set up small and medium enterprises abroad simply do not have any furniture. All they take with them is their intellectual capital which, of course, is not subjected to exchange control and these young entrepreneurs should be encouraged rather to set up small and medium enterprises in South Africa.
In sy outobiografie, waarna reeds verwys is, sê Joe Slovo dat ‘n eenpartystaat ‘n resep is vir tirannie. Suid-Afrika is nie ‘n eenpartystaat nie; wat ons wel het, is ‘n eenparty-dominante staat binne die konteks van ‘n veelparty demokrasie, en om te verhoed dat ‘n eenparty-dominante staat ook ‘n resep word vir tirannie, moet spesiale aandag gegee word aan die bevordering van minderheidsregte in ooreenstemming met internasionale konvensies in dié verband. En teen die agtergrond van ‘n eenparty-dominante staat, wat nog lank die geval gaan wees in Suid-Afrika, bly ‘n stelsel van samewerkende regering die enigste geskikte model om na belange van minderhede om te sien. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [In his autobiography, to which reference has already been made, Joe Slovo says that a one-party state is a recipe for tyranny. South Africa is not a one-party state; what we do have is a one-party-dominant state in the context of a multiparty democracy and in order to prevent a one-party- dominant state from also becoming a recipe for tyranny, special attention must be given to the promotion of minority rights in accordance with international conventions in this regard. And against the background of a one-party-dominant state, which will be the case in South Africa for quite some time to come, a system of co-operative governance remains the only suitable model for caring for the interests of minorities. [Applause.]]
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, it is an honour and a privilege for me to participate in this important debate close to the end of parliamentary activities for 2003, and on the eve of celebrating our achievements during the first decade of freedom.
I will not follow the example of two of the previous speakers, namely the hon member from the DA and the hon member from the IFP, who have been overcritical in their assessment of the last 10 years and I think that it is an opportunity missed by both these parties to not run down the country but also to acknowledge the achievements that we have made over the past couple of years and the past decade. So it is surprising. It is perhaps their true colours that are showing, at least where these two parties are concerned.
In the time allocated to me, I want to emphasise two major achievements in our economic transformation during the past 10 years, namely macroeconomic stability and confidence in our economy, and successful achievements to effectively address the basic needs of poor and disadvantaged people in our country, thereby providing a better quality of life for our people.
Before the first democratically elected Government took office in 1994, the country was economically isolated and the economy was in a crisis. Apartheid resulted in huge inequalities and increasing poverty, rising unemployment, negative growth, large budget deficits, sanctions and unsustainable government debt.
Ten years later, South Africa has achieved a level of macroeconomic stability not seen in 40 years. The budget deficit has decreased from 9,5% of GDP in 1993 to only 1,2% in 2002-03. The total public sector debt has fallen from 64% of GDP in 1994 to less than 50% in 2002. The net open forward position of the Reserve Bank has fallen from US$25 billion in 1994 to zero in 2003. Our foreign reserves have risen from one month’s import cover to two-and-a-half months’ import cover.
Within the short period of less than one decade, we are receiving positive sovereign and investment ratings by internationally recognised agencies. These ratings reflect their confidence in our prospects for sustainable economic growth over the coming years. This macroeconomic stability has been achieved through ANC policies implemented to date. There have been ongoing policy engagements within the alliance, broader civil society, Nedlac and the Growth and Development Summit. Annual budgets thereafter allocate funds to implement departmental programmes.
Today we find that business, labour, community representatives and international role-players come to the ANC Government with their problems and suggestions, because we are committed to governing this country effectively. The result was that, in 1999 the electorate returned the ANC with a nearly two-thirds majority. In 2004 the electorate will return the ANC with a two-thirds majority, because the ANC is a caring Government, with a vision of decent work and living standards for all. The ANC is a reflection of what South Africa must look like.
Vanaf my agtergrond as ‘n blanke Afrikaanssprekende persoon kan ek eerlik vir u hier sê dat geen regering in die geskiedenis van Suid-Afrika meer gedoen het vir die ekonomiese transformasie van Suid-Afrika as die ANC- regering nie. Binne een dekade het die Regering ekonomiese vertroue en stabiliteit gevestig wat internasionaal erken word, en terselfdertyd die lewensgehalte van miljoene Suid-Afrikaners verbeter. Dit is ‘n prestasie waarop Suid-Afrikaners kan trots wees. Ek sien uit na die dag wanneer partye soos die DA en die IVP besluit dit is prestasies wat erkenning verg. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Against my background as a white Afrikaans-speaking person I can honestly tell you here that no government in the history of South Africa has done more for the economic transformation of South Africa than the ANC Government. Within one decade the Government has established economic confidence and stability that are recognised internationally, and at the same time improved the lives of millions of South Africans. This is an achievement South Africans can be proud of. I am looking forward to the day when parties like the DA and the IFP decide that these are achievements that require recognition.]
This brings me to the second issue, namely the successes achieved in providing a better quality of life for our people. Between 1995 and 2002 the number of people employed grew by 1,6 million from 9,6 million to 11,2 million. However, the unemployed also grew by 2,5 million because many more people were seeking work. While many unskilled workers are unemployed, there are shortages of skilled workers in many sectors.
Many jobs were created during the last decade, but did not accommodate all work seekers. Government has therefore set a goal to halve the number of unemployed by 2014. This will be achieved if all role-players work together, including Government, business, labour and community representatives. A specific commitment, reached at the Growth and Development Summit, relates to job creation. It will be complemented by the Budget, which is a vehicle for the political objectives of Government, where significant investments by Government in provincial roads and municipal infrastructure, amounting to R56,5 billion over the next three years, are already indicated. It highlights our commitment towards growth- enhancing investment and employment whilst meeting social delivery backlogs. The ANC Government endorses the principle that infrastructure development is a primary driver of economic growth and social development. The outcome of this must be job creation, poverty alleviation and income generation through an Expanded Public Works Programme approach. In this programme, labour-intensive methods of construction, development and maintenance must be used. This represents a different approach to public works programmes using a labour base. Credit for this initiative must go to the ANC-led Government. We are serious in addressing the problem of unemployment collectively with all the role-players.
We reject arguments from the opposition that life in South Africa is now no better than before 1994 and that all is the same. This Government cares more than any previous government in South Africa about the poor people of our country and will continue to improve the quality of life of poor people. For too long have the majority of our people been disenfranchised, socially excluded and neglected. The long walk to freedom is reflected in this House and is evident within our society.
The redirection of Government spending is another significant contributor to the improved lives of millions of people. This new spending pattern by Government addresses the needs and interests of the majority of the people of our country and reflects the demographic reality of South Africa. It is reflected in spending on education, health, water, sanitation and electricity.
Programmes to alleviate poverty have furthermore brought about improvement in the lives of millions. Beneficiaries of social grants are in excess of the seven million mark for last month, October 2003. These grants, formerly allocated on a racial basis, have been equalised and extended to all who are in need and are eligible. Despite these successes, the challenge remains to integrate as many people as possible into the economy, whether in the formal or informal sector where they can participate in economic activities and contribute to our gross domestic product. In his address to the National Assembly on 12 November 2003, the Minister of Finance, Mr Manuel, said South Africa was a great place to be. What true words. As a nation, we are building a future together across historical divides. We have the confidence, we have sound and workable policies, we know what the challenges are in our country, and we have the determination to make South Africa a great place to live.
For the past 10 years we have successfully achieved a new ethos: reconciliation, tolerance and co-existence. Because of these achievements, people feel confident about South Africa - people like Gary Player and people like Patrice Motsepe, but also ordinary South Africans.
My appeal is that, based on this 10-year review report, we as the political leaders in this House, together with millions of South Africans, will continuously strive to make South Africa a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and united country, as embodied in the Freedom Charter. I thank you. [Applause.] Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, South Africa is a country at peace with itself, thanks to its peaceful transition to a democratic state. This is no mean feat. It is an historical miracle brought about by skilful negotiation, much praying and wise counsel from many quarters within our nation and around the world.
However, the miracle must be kept alive since there has been an increasing number of challenges that have arisen over the last 10 years that are eating away at the achievements that we have made since 1994.
We commend Government on the macroeconomic stability, but notwithstanding the strong economy, large-scale poverty and joblessness are still with us. Despite a peaceful transition, a new and much larger enemy stalks the streets of our communities, namely that of violence and organised crime.
Despite having a Constitution to protect citizens against oppression and injustice, we have corruption and theft within governing bodies on a large scale which diminishes the values of our democratic Constitution. All South Africans can be rightly proud of the work done by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to avert ongoing hatred and bitterness amongst the various groups in our nation.
We pride ourselves on being a secular humanist state but when things do not go right and the moral depravity of humans begin to show, we design a moral regeneration strategy as if we can programme the behaviour of people according to a set of preferred social mores supervised by the state.
The bottom line is that if one leaves God out of the equation of human affairs, the rot sets in from the top and right down into all of society, including the moral regeneration programme. The way forward lies in partnerships and, during the next 10 years, let us build meaningful partnerships and create a South Africa where Government, civil society, business and ordinary citizens work hand in hand, in a free and peaceful South Africa.
Mr G T MADIKIZA: Chairperson and hon members, any review of the past 10 years that does not acknowledge the huge constitutional strides that were taken to establish a democratic society would be inaccurate. Similarly, any review that claims that no mistakes have been made and no issues have been neglected would also fail to reflect reality.
Though much has been said of the social wage, the extent to which this social wage exists is questionable. For instance, what percentage of the child grant reaches children and improves their lives? Aside from this, the existence of the social wage depends on the assumption that all the telephone, water and electricity connections that have been made are still connected. This too is pertinently not the case.
In fact, research shows that hundreds of thousands of households have had these new-found services disconnected. Sadly for the poor and the desperate, the extent of the social wage is a highly overestimated phenomenon.
Furthermore, even if we were to accept, for the purposes of argument that the social wage is as widely felt as the ruling party would have us believe, then we still need to take into account the ravages of unemployment.
The social wage is advanced as a justification for the inability of the ANC to make job creation a reality that exists outside their election manifesto. It is the ANC’s way of saying that they have not succeeded in every respect but that they have done enough. We disagree with such an argument. We must do more.
Government must take more active steps to stimulate job creation and by that we mean more than promising infrastructure development through Transnet … [Time expired.]
Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, as we are about to celebrate 10 years of freedom and democracy, we are, firstly, challenged to review the past decade as to how we as a new country should face it and whether we achieved the goals we set ourselves at the beginning of the decade.
The goals in question are encapsulated in the vision to bring about a better life and a just society and recognise and acknowledge that. The poorest section of our population has the right to enjoy the same freedom we all fought for.
Today we are free from all forms of apartheid laws. We are indeed a democratic society but the challenge that we are faced with as we reflect on our decade of freedom is to honestly ask ourselves the following question: Is the life we are living in line with the type of freedom we envisaged? Surely, this is a subjective question.
There is no doubt that our country has emerged triumphantly from its ugly past. South Africa today is counted amongst the best in world democracies. Domestically we have managed to bring to an end the political and ethnic violence that characterised the 80s and 90s.
We have managed to draft and produce a model Constitution that contains the Bill of Rights. Today our pensioners receive improved monthly grants. In terms of hosting events of international magnitude we have excelled when given an opportunity. The World Summit on Sustainable Development … [Time expired.]
Ms S B NQODI: Deputy Chair, hon members, let me open my debate by extracting from an article, ``Mayihlome’’, written in the ANC parliamentary caucus publication, Sephadi, which reads as follows, and I quote:
The people of South Africa overwhelmingly voted for the ANC in the 1994 and 1999 general elections. These people believed, as they do now, that the policies of the ANC are a correct response to South Africa’s challenges. They believe that the Freedom Charter is correct when it declares that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, both black and white. These South Africans believe in one human race, whose dignity must be respected and protected. These people believe that the wealth of the country must be shared.
Furthermore, they are committed to contributing to this South Africa and fight against whatever that seeks to bring back apartheid, even in disguised clothes of neo-liberalism.
Upfront, I wish to assure all the sceptics, critics and doubting Thomases in this House and outside that the 10-year review of the ANC in government in the new democratic South Africa clearly says: ``Thumbs up to all those believers, all those gallants and sons and daughters of the soil who unreservedly voted for the ANC. We salute you! After a long walk to freedom, finally, through the ANC, you have reached your destination. South Africa now belongs to all who live in it. You made the correct and the best choice. You are the winners and victors over the prophets of doom.’’
Deputy Chair and members, the summary of the events and changes that the people of this country witnessed happening and unfolding in this ANC-led democratic Government in the past 10 years is that this has been a decade of the testing, trials and triumphs of the meaning of democracy and political freedom for the majority of the black people of this country. This has been a decade of unimagined and unprecedented political and social transition and transformation whose effects have not only been positive, but also rewarding to the majority of our citizens. It has been a period of the restoration of the dignity and human rights of the formerly oppressed, discriminated and dehumanised black people of this country - the rightful rulers of this country; this, our ancestral mother and fatherland.
Indeed this has been a decade in which the pride, humility and beauty of being an African, and in particular a black, has been showcased not only to our former colonisers, but to the world as a whole. Within this short period of 10 years only, blacks in this country have, for the very first time, known, experienced and understood the difference between apartheid and democracy, or oppression and liberation; the meaning and benefits of enfranchisement, human rights, national identity and patriotism; freedom to choose what matters to them first, that is, Batho Pele, instead of being told, instructed or dictated to by the powers that be, which was a norm and practice during the past regime.
Most important of all, the ANC in this House is proud to say: We have been consistent in changing the profile of the South African society to the best of our policies. Indeed, we are on track in turning the tide against poverty eradication and racial discrimination. We are all proudly South African: black and white, young and old.
The ANC rules and the ANC lives. We have delivered, to the astonishment and embarrassment of our opponents, and we will continue doing so. Aluta Continua! Through the laws we have passed in this House and through our good governance programmes and projects, everyone in South Africa today enjoys a better quality of life - a fulfilment of both our 1994 and 1999 election manifestos.
Ndenza amagqabantshintshi ngegalelo likaRhulumente kule minyaka ilishumi, ngolu hlobo: Chu kuhle, ngemizimba engenaxhala, siyaya enkululekweni egqibeleleyo ebandakanya abantu bethu bebonke ekuthabatheni inxaxheba, ekuxhamleni ubutyebi noqoqosho lweli lizwe. Okwakalokunje, siyazingca ngeenguqu nobomi obungcono esibunike iimbedlenge nabantu bakowethu ngeenkonzo zoluntu esithe sazizisa eluntwini. Emva kweminyaka engaphaya kwama-3 000 engcinezelo kaFaro, phantsi kolawulo lwegcuntswana, abantu bakowethu namhlanje bakhuselekile ngenxa yamalungelo oluntu abawaxhamlayo phantsi kolawulo lukaNkongolo.
Ligqithile ixesha apho inkamnkam ibisakwamkeliswa ngocalucalulo, ngokobuhlanga. Kunamhlanje nje bonke abantu abadala bamkela imali elinganayo. Siya kukhumbula ukuba ukungena kwethu elulawulweni, inkamnkam yabantu abamnyama yayili-140 eerandi kuphela, emva kweenyanga ezimbini. Namhlanje umhlophe, umnyama, ufumana ama-750 eerandi ngenyanga. Iinkedama nabantwana abaphuma kumakhaya ahlelelekileyo abaminyaka ili-14 nangaphatsi bayabonelelwa nguRhulumente ngemali. Kwiminyaka emibini yokuqala kolu ncedo, umntwana ngamnye wayenikwa i-100 leerandi, kodwa namhlanje ufumana i- 160 leerandi.
Imfundo ililungelo kubo bonke abantwana, ukususela kumabanga aphantsi ukuya kutsho kwibanga lesixhenxe. Kanti lukhona noncedo lweemali olunikwa abo bakumabanga aphezulu nakwiidyunivesithi. Siyazibona neenkqubo zemfundo kumabonakude ezixhaswa nguRhulumente, kulungiselelwa abo bangenandlela yakuya ezikolweni ngezizathu ezahlukeneyo, umzekelo, uTakalani Sesame esimbukela rhoqo.
Unyango kumaziko onyango lufumaneka ngaphandle kwentlawulo kubantwana abaminyaka mithandathu nangaphantsi. Ndiqinisekile ukuba sisonke simqhwabela izandla uRhulumente ngesigqibo asithabathileyo sokubonelela ngamachiza okunceda abo baphila neSifo uGawulayo okanye i-HIV/Aids. Siyazidla ngenkqubo kaRhulumente yokwakha izibhedlele neekliniki, ngakumbi emaphandleni.
Ngazo zonke ezi zinto, nezininzi endingenakuzibalula ngenxa yexesha, sithi, ``Ngxatsho ke!’’ kuRhulumente. Sibamba ngazibini kuwe Galel’ ebhayini, mbuthondini wesizwe i-ANC. Namhlanje namaqaqa ayaqikaqikeka kuqaqaqa. Sifuna ukuthi ke, lumka qaqa, ungaqhawukelwa nguqhoqhoqho ngokusoloko uxokozela okwexoxo emgxobhozweni! Musani ukusoloko nikhonya okoomofu emva kwemvula. I-ANC iyalawula, iphethe. Ayijiki yaye ayibuyi mva! [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[This way, I am only giving a summary of the Government’s contribution in the past 10 years of our new democracy. Steadily, with cool heads, we are heading towards a fully fledged participatory democracy where all our people are going to be benefiting from the wealth and economy of this country. At the moment we are proud about changes and better life conditions that we have afforded pensioners and other people that receive grants. Today, after 3 000 years of oppression and rule of only a few, our people should feel protected because of the rights that were introduced under the leadership of the ANC.
The time has passed when welfare grants were received under discriminatory and racial conditions. All aged persons now receive equal grants. We will remember that when we came into power, the old age pension for black people was only R140, and that was received after two months. Orphans and children born from poor homes and who are 14 years of age and under, receive grants from this Government. In the first two years after the introduction of child grants, each child received R100, but the money has since risen to R160.
Education is a right for every child, from early childhood years up to grade 7. For those that reach the level of tertiary education, financial assistance is available. On TV we can see Government-sponsored educational programmes, as a means of assisting the disadvantaged. Takalani Sesame is one such programme and is always screened on TV.
Health care is free for children who are six years and under. I am certain that all of us applaud and commend the Government’s decision to provide antiretrovirals to people living with HIV/Aids. We are proud of the programme of building hospitals and clinics, especially in rural areas, that the Government announced.
We say, ``Thank you!’’ to the Government for all these things and many others. I cannot mention all of them because of time constraints. We are grateful to the ANC, as it is the national organisation. We would like to caution all those who continuously complain but do not say or show anything of substance from which people of this country can benefit. The ANC is in power and the ANC rules. It is not turning back, but moving forward! [Applause.]]
Bagaetsho, puso ya rona ya ANC e netefatsa gore lefatshe le mmu wa borraronamogolo o boele go beng ba ona. Go a kgatlhisa go bona gore puso ya rona e dirisana le magosi a setshaba sa gaetsho.
Mafaratlhatlha a go tokafatsa matshelo a batho ba rona a a tsenngwa. Ke bua ka metlakase, ditsela, metsi a a phepa, matlwana a boithusetso, le go fokotsa metsi a bakwang ke kgotlhelego ya metsi a a gelelwang. Dikolo tsa dipolase di beilwe ka fa tlase ga tlhokomelo ya puso le boradipolase.
Puso ya ANC e ikaeletse go busa seriti sa bagolo le go dira ka thata gore mafelo ao ba amogelang madi a phensene kwa go tsona di phepa e bile di a kgatlhisa. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)
[The ANC ensures that the land of their ancestors should be returned to its rightful owners. It is very encouraging to note that our Government works together with our kings.
The attempts to improve the lives of our people are being implemented. I am specifically referring to electricity, roads, clean water, toilets, and the eradication of disease from water that is fetched from rivers. Farm schools have been placed under the control of the state and farmers. The ANC also intends to bring back the dignity of our old people by ensuring that places where they receive their pensions are clean and people- friendly.]
Deputy Chair, let me conclude by saying that, as the ANC, we are not afraid nor ashamed to say openly that what we have done and achieved so far, within this short period of 10 years of our rule in Government, definitely has had a profound effect and impact on the lives of many of our people. This, however, is just the tip of the iceberg, given the gigantic size of the iceberg of disparities, inequities and backlogs that we have inherited and which we still have to address as Government.
As we all know, Rome was never built in one day. We believe in ourselves as a party; we believe in our policies; and, we believe in our people, their undaunting and continuous support, the confidence and the trust that they have in the ANC, that, together with them, despite the limitations of our resources, this Government has delivered well beyond expectations.
We are aware of the challenges of narrowing the wide gap between the dual economies that we have inherited of the white minority haves and the black majority have-nots. Government is doing something about this, and we are proud of that. We are all aware and supportive of Government’s commitment and intentions to unbundle the economy of this country by promoting SMMEs and BEE.
Equally so, we are aware of the devastating effects of the Bantu education system under the apartheid regime, which has deprived our people of the necessary skills, computer technology, literacy and qualifications which are so necessary today for almost any type of job. However, the radical changes we see and read about that aim at transforming our education system, amongst other things, are targeting this anomaly.
The rising increase in the prevalence of HIV/Aids, which robs so many of our youth and an economically active percentage of our population of their lives, is surely a cause for concern to this Government.
Because of all these, we are today confronted with the twin evils of rising unemployment and increasing poverty. We note with appreciation, however, that our Government’s microeconomic and macroeconomic policies are so far responding positively to all these challenges.
Two major programmes of the Government address income poverty in the form of income grants and public works. Already, judging by the improvement in the quality of life of both urban and rural communities, there is definitely no other choice for any rational or level-headed South African citizen but to vote for the ANC, again and again in the upcoming 2004 general elections. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Deputy Chair. The Minority Front feels that our greatest achievement is our freedom. All other factors help us to keep it. From the ten-year review Government has appeared to be quite effective. However, a few loopholes were noted. We hope that these loopholes will be filled efficiently in due course.
We have had great achievements socially, even though our challenges have been huge. Poverty alleviation is one of the greatest Government programmes. We have worked hard and our efforts are showing results.
Poverty alleviation through human capital has also achieved significant results. Education, health, water and sanitation, and electrification have been taken to so many previously disadvantaged areas, and so has housing, among other things, to improve the living conditions of our people.
Over the past 10 years it has been pleasing to note that the Government has successfully managed to ensure macroeconomic stability. However, issues holding back greater investment appear to be a concern, and it is hoped that in future these issues will be addressed in earnest.
Crime is rife in South Africa and, while many success stories have been reported on justice, crime prevention and security, it remains a challenge. But with the close working relationship of communities, NGOs and Government it is encouraging to note that crime will be stamped out with determination.
We, in the ANC Government, have achieved a lot over the past 10 years. The repercussions from the apartheid regime have not been easy to clean up, but with our tools in place the MF is confident that greater achievement shall be attained in future.
We should not be too hard on ourselves for the loopholes. The MF feels that, considering what the apartheid regime had left with us, we certainly have come a long way and should continue our journey to a true democracy together with the ANC Government.
Usebenzile uHulumeni we-ANC neMinortiy Front. [The government of the ANC and the MF has done a good job.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Agb Voorsitter, ‘n debat soos hierdie kan maklik ontaard in ‘n groot ``brag’’ deur die Regering aan die een kant, en ‘n groot baklei deur die opposisie aan die ander kant.
Tydens ‘n onlangse evaluasie het die Regering byna volpunte gekry vir sy prestasies oor die afgelope 10 jaar. Ongelukkig was dit ‘n evaluasie deur die Regering self - dit is ‘n geval van Jannie wat sy eie rapport skryf en aan homself ‘n A-plus toeken vir elke vak.
Natuurlik is daar pluspunte: die fiskale beheer, die ekonomie, die waarde van die rand, Suid-Afrika se staanplek in die internasionale wêreld, en dienste wat verskaf is op plaaslike vlak.
Daar is egter ook die druipvakke - ek noem dit net - wat erger is as ooit: misdaad; werkloosheid; swak dienslewering; administratiewe onvermoë om goedgekeurde fondse aan te wend; en die bankrotsituasie van talle plaaslike owerhede.
Ek wil net kortliks fokus op hoe Suid-Afrikaners van alle bevolkingsgroepe na 10 jaar met mekaar saamleef. Daar is ‘n enorme wil by die meeste Suid- Afrikaners om mekaar te vind, om vir mekaar ruimte te gee, en te leef en te laat leef. Hierdie wellewendheid onder gewone Suid-Afrikaners word egter vanuit ander oorde bedreig, en die huidige Regering staan hier in die beskuldigdebank.
Daar is regeringsbesluite wat dele van die bevolking vervreem. Hier dink mens aan die sinnelose naamsveranderinge wat ‘n streep wil trek deur ‘n bepaalde deel van ons geskiedenis. Hier in die Parlement moes ons hoor Pretoria is na ‘n moordenaar vernoem.
Daar is diskriminerende regstellende aksie wat talle Suid-Afrikaners marginaliseer tot tweederangse burgers. Daar is ‘n totale miskenning van die waardesisteem van ‘n groot deel van ons bevolking in die manier hoe ons kinders op skool onderrig en opgevoed moet word.
En dan is daar laastens die kwessie van rassisme, of moet ek eerder sê gewaande rassisme. Twee voorbeelde uit die sportwêreld staan uit: eers was dit Geo Cronjé en nou Kepler Wessels, wat terloops vandag onskuldig bevind is.
Suiwer oppposisie politiek word gerieflik afgemaak as ``white arrogance’’. Ek glo dat rassisme onder die deursnee Suid-Afrikaner aan die afneem is. Wanneer ongegronde beskuldigings daarvan kwistig rondgegooi word om eie agendas deur te voer, sit dit ons meer as 10 jaar terug.
Voorsitter, ons moet daarteen waak dat die grootste verskil tussen voor- en na-94 nie net is dat die pendulum geswaai het en die skoen nou aan die ander voet is nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, a debate like this can easily degenerate into a big “brag” by the Government on the one hand, and a big fight by the opposition on the other.
During a recent evaluation the Government scored almost full marks for its achievements over the past 10 years. Unfortunately, it was an evaluation by the Government itself - a case of Jannie who writes his own report, awarding himself an A plus for each subject.
There are positives, of course: the fiscal control, the economy, the value of the rand, South Africa’s position in the international world, and services that are rendered at the local level.
However, there are also failures - I just want to mention this - that are worse than ever: crime; unemployment; poor service delivery; an administrative inability to utilise approved funds; and the bankruptcy of a number of local authorities.
I just want to focus briefly on how South Africans from all population groups live together with one another after 10 years. There is an enormous will amongst most South Africans to find one another, to give each other space, and to live and let live. This courtesy amongst ordinary South Africans, however, is being threatened from other quarters, and here the current Government is standing in the dock.
There are Government decisions that alienate sections of the population. Here one thinks of the senseless changing of names which seeks to wipe out a particular part of our history. Here in Parliament we had to hear that Pretoria was named after a murderer.
There is discriminatory affirmative action which marginalises many South Africans to second-class citizens. There is a complete disregard of the value system of a large section of our population in the way we should teach and educate our children at school.
And then, finally, there is the issue of racism, or should I rather say supposed racism. Two examples from the world of sport come to mind: first it was Geo Cronjé and now Kepler Wessels, who, incidentally, has been found not guilty today.
True opposition politics is being passed off, conveniently, as white arrogance. I believe that racism is declining amongst a cross-section of South Africans. When unwarranted accusations of it are bandied about freely to fulfil selfish agendas, it puts us back more than 10 years.
Chairperson, we must guard against the biggest difference between pre- and post-94 only being that the pendulum has swung and the tables have been turned. I thank you.]
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Deputy Chair, as we review the past nine years, Azapo is alive to the fact that when 1994 ushered in the first-ever elections for the majority of our people, we inherited this apartheid system with its norms and values, its Parliament and its rituals, and all the structures whose creations were meant to perpetuate oppression. We also inherited the army, the force whose training and outlook were consistent with the past. We inherited a prison system that dehumanised people. For that matter, we also inherited a western type democracy whose purpose is to enhance western values and norms.
In this fashion we have also indirectly inherited political parties that are very good at practising the politics of the past. In short, we have inherited all that used to oppress our people.
All these ramifications, because of the struggles of our people, are now withering away. Our responsibility at this moment is to persist in dismantling all the aspects of the past system that continues to oppress our people.
Azapo also knows that after nine years of democracy, beneficiaries of the apartheid system are still clinging tenaciously to economic power and privileges, and that in order to perpetuate this state of affairs, they now ``rent’’ black individuals and black-controlled companies to sustain their hold on power.
Azapo believes that during …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: … the next decade we should translate political power into economic power …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order, hon member.
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: … which in turn should give power and provide a better life for our people. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr C R REDCLIFFE: Deputy Chair, it is important that we reflect on our challenges honestly and realistically.
Late last month, the Government released a self-evaluation entitled Towards a Ten Year Review. The review concludes: ``All the evidence from research suggests that Government has adequately met its objectives.’’
But is this indeed a fair and completely honest assessment? There are major gaps in the document, as well as serious exaggerations. Most famously, the review makes the bold claim that Government has reduced inequality by 41% through its social spending programmes. This figure was arrived at through a tortuous manipulation of the standard measure of inequality, the Gini coefficient.
South Africa’s Gini coefficient, unfortunately, is among the highest in the world. We are ranked alongside such notoriously unequal societies as Sierra Leone, Brazil, and Columbia.
The review argues that by 2000, the Government was able to reduce the Gini coefficient from officially reported levels of roughly 0,6 to the low level of 0,35. To give you some idea of what that means, a Gini coefficient of 0,35 would place South Africa among one of the top 10 most equal societies in the world. Sweden, Japan, Denmark and Finland all have Gini coefficients of roughly 0,35.
The review’s authors make the unsubstantiated assumption that social
spending by Government - what they refer to as a social wage" -
represents a real transfer of wealth from rich to poor. This is a difficult
claim to justify. We know that much of the money budgeted for social
spending is either left unspent or is wasted. This year, for example, the
ANC-New NP Government in the Western Cape has only spent R86 million out of
R423 million in the housing budget, leaving roughly 80% of the money
unspent. There is also no direct link between social spending and household
wealth. Clearly, thesocial wage’’ argument has severe shortcomings.
The Government’s method of calculating the Gini coefficient uses some highly dubious statistical methods. The review’s conclusions go against what most of us know to be true from our everyday experience - or, as the President said earlier today, ``we must use our eyes’’ - that the rich have become richer and the poor have become poorer over the last decade.
The review’s findings also directly contradict the numbers provided by Statistics South Africa, which reported in 2000 that the Gini coefficient had increased consistently through the late 90s. As of last year, the Gini coefficient had reached a level of between 0,57 and 0,64 …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order.
Mr C R REDCLIFFE: … and was still climbing. In addition, the Government’s findings are contested by numerous studies …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your speaking time has expired.
Mr C R REDCLIFFE: … Thank you.
Mr O BAPELA: Deputy Chair, I hope you will bear with me. I’ve just got a touch of a cold and flu. The focal area in the debate … [Interjections.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, please! Order! Order!
Mr O BAPELA: The focal area in the debate that I will focus on is the role South Africa plays in the international arena and why we must continue to play that role. As the President said in the NCOP, responding to a question often raised also in this House and in the public arena as well that we spend too much time outside:
South Africa’s role in the rest of the world is not going to diminish. It is going to increase. It is inevitable, but it is also correct. We, as a country, ought to be particularly sensitive to the fact that we owe our liberation, in good measure, to other people of the world.
I will, in my input, quantify the argument, demonstrate and point out why South Africa must be there in the international arena and remain a member of the community of nations for the benefits that come with such a role and our commitment to build a better world. The report, Towards a Ten Year Review, is a review that primarily reflects on Government’s performance in realising its objectives, and it does not seek to examine in detail the evolution of various sectors of society in the period under review.
It is expected that other organisations in the areas of sport, arts and culture, universities, professionals, intelligentsia, trade unions, NGOs and CBOs, private sector, women’s formations, health bodies, etc, should conduct their own assessments which, together with this review, will help inform the nation’s evaluation of itself in the first decade of freedom. We hope that everybody and every citizen, through their formations, will do their evaluations about our 10 years of freedom and map achievements, successes, difficulties, challenges and failures as part of their contribution towards a nation assessing itself. This will help us as a nation to chart a way forward after celebrating, as we move into the 10 years of the second decade.
The following are some of the characteristics of South Africa pre-1994. South Africa was an apartheid state in isolation from the rest of the world, with very few friends internationally; economic, cultural and sports sanctions were imposed on apartheid South Africa; South Africa was at war with its neighbours - the Maseru, Gaborone and Matola bombings and killings are examples of this; South Africa financially, materially and ideologically supported counter-revolutionary groups with a view to overthrowing other governments; South Africa was involved in the war in Angola; South Africa used slush funds in sanction-busting activities; it funded agencies for propaganda with a view to improving its bankruptcy and damaged image in the world community of nations, and South Africa was suspended from membership of the OAU, UN and other international bodies such as Fifa, etc.
In today’s South Africa, we are proud that it is recognised as a significant and strategic player, a peacemaker and builder of a better world. South Africa is promoting international respect for human rights, democracy and good governance. In concert with other states and through multilateral mechanisms such as the UN, OAU - now the AU - and SADC, South Africa has played a meaningful role in the promotion and protection of human rights, and on the guidance of the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights. South Africa is a member of international bodies including the UN, all Bretton Woods institutions, the Nonaligned Movement and other continental bodies. Our leadership is respected and is in demand on the continent and in the world. It is also consistent in promoting Africa in the whole world. So our role therefore, as leaders, is to engage and ensure that, indeed, we make the world a better place to be.
Since 1994, we have also seen the growth of representations of diplomatic missions in the country. According to the 10-year review report, in 1989 we had 41 missions, in 1994 they grew to 80 and in 1995 they went up to 105. We continue to have more diplomatic missions coming to South Africa and South Africa also establishes other missions all over the world, particularly regarding south-to-south co-operation and Africa. And, we still continue to strengthen our representation in most of the northern countries.
I would also like to add that due to our role in the international arena, we have hosted many conferences and many more are still coming to South Africa. Those conferences also brought benefits to our people through job creation, procurement, hospitality services and the consumption of goods and services. These conferences have also marketed South Africa, which today is receiving thousands if not millions through tourism. Some of those who are coming here are the very people who attended those conferences. They are coming back with their families, wives, husbands, friends and others who have heard from those who were in South Africa about this beautiful country and, hence, tourism is growing.
We are thrilled to mention some of the conferences: the Unctad ninth summit in 1996; the Nonaligned Movement summit in 1998; the AU launch in 2002; the World Aids Conference in 2000; the African Union Summit; the UN World Conference Against Racism in 2001; the Conference of African Ministers of Finance, Economic Development and Planning in 2002; the Rugby World Cup in 1995; the African Cup of Nations in 1996; the Athletics World Cup in 1998; the All Africa Games in 1999; the Cricket World Cup in 2003; the international boxing matches that are continuously staged here; Nepad business meetings and many, many others.
We hope that when we debate and assess the second decade of freedom, in 2014, we will do so having hosted the 2010 World Cup, if we win the bid. We should, in the next decade, attempt to host the Olympic Games and we should also host the Pan-African Parliament, if South Africa wins the bid. So when we debate in 2014, we hope, therefore, that we will embrace these elements and celebrate our achievements on them.
Mr D H M GIBSON: But you’re going to be old in 2014!
Mr O BAPELA: Don’t worry, I will still be there in 2014 and I’ll still be in the majority party, in this Parliament.
Since the 1990s, Government has embarked on an active imaging, branding and marketing campaign of South Africa. Our Government has put in place programmes and initiatives, some in partnership with nongovernmental initiatives, for promoting the Proudly South African campaign. The events appear to have been instrumental in accounting for the upsurge in tourism to South Africa, in addition to an attractive exchange rate for tourists and perceptions of the country as being relatively safe from extremists’ acts. For example, tourist arrivals in 1998 were 5,7 million, in 1999 they were 5,8 million and in 2002 they went up to 6,8 million. That is an indication of the confidence that the world has in South Africa.
Lastly, we are also getting involved in international bodies. We interact and play a role when the need arises. We balance this, obviously, with domestic challenges in order to achieve the realisation of Nepad objectives. Building peace and stability on the continent will make us grow our economy and trade with African countries; promote democracy and good governance for sustainable development; speed up the transformation of all institutions and agencies; and, support and strengthen multilateralism at regional, continental and global levels.
In conclusion, I would like to relate a story of a man I met on the plane
on Sunday, as I was coming here. He was returning from the Rugby World Cup
in Australia. As we were getting off the plane - he was a white patriot -
he ran down the stairs to the tarmac, kneeled down and kissed the ground
and said, It's great to be back.'' He then spoke to us as we were waiting
for a bus and said,If only South Africans could acknowledge and realise
what a great country we have.’’ [Applause.] He continued and said that,
yes, we have problems but that he thought we will go through those problems
and resolve them. Besides everything, those challenges are there but South
Africa is a great place to be. I honour such a man and other people who can
speak like that. [Applause.]
Mr N J CLELLAND-STOKES: Chairperson, today there has been a lot of talk about a document called Towards a Ten Year Review. Let me say from the outset that any reasonable and objective assessment of the first decade of democracy will acknowledge that the Government has had both successes and failures.
But, the document in question makes bold to state that, and I quote:
All the evidence from research suggests that Government has adequately met its objectives.
This, I’m afraid, is patently untrue. For millions of our fellow South Africans there are ways in which life is no better now. The hard, shocking truth is that, in some ways, for so many of our people, life has even become worse. We are still plagued with poverty. It is a fact. A decade into freedom, black South Africans are poorer on average than they used to be.
And there’s unemployment, the primary cause of destitution and poverty. I’m the first to concede that jobs have indeed been created, but a million jobs have been lost. And there is Aids, a disease that is spreading death through our land. For the President of South Africa, Aids is nothing more than a philosophical hobbyhorse, which he rides badly most of the time.
These are only some of the challenges we face, but they are not simply policy challenges or problems with administration or budget difficulties. These are human tragedies. But I’m not here to say what is wrong without proposing alternatives - solid, workable alternatives.
The DA has outlined the policy programme for positive change that recommends brave and fundamental reforms that will guide South Africa towards the position of prominence it richly deserves. Our policy on crime proposes that we increase the police force of South Africa so that we have 150 000 trained and fully equipped policemen on the streets where we live. Our economic policy makes job creation and real economic growth top priorities. Our policy on poverty includes support for a basic income grant, which would fundamentally change the lives of the poorest of all South Africans - a basic income grant.
All of these policies are based on the same premise: that South Africa urgently needs radical and fundamental change. We believe that this important 10-year mark and the elections that will soon be upon us are about a clear choice for South Africa’s future. South Africans can choose the status quo endorsed by the Government - the same failed policies, the same failed politicians, the same stagnant development, a dreary future defined by state control and one-partyism - or they can choose the DA and the coalition for change and invite the bold reforms that will make South Africa, in a second decade of freedom, truly free, truly vibrant and truly better for all South Africans.
Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, I have a long, prepared speech here, but with all these things that the opposition parties have come up with now, I don’t know whether I should perhaps just put my speech to one side and respond to some of them.
Firstly, let me say to Cassie Aucamp, you are sounding more and more like the DA, only you are speaking in Afrikaans. [Laughter.] You must make up your mind about what you want to say and do. Secondly, I want to say to the hon Redcliffe that when the President spoke about us having to use our eyes, he meant that if we looked around, we would still see that many of the inequalities that were caused in the past, by the old apartheid laws, still prevail, and that we’ve got a long haul to go with respect to inequalities. We must not hide our feelings and fool ourselves and say that those things don’t exist.
Thirdly, what I want to say to Nick, and I was hoping that Mr Gibson would speak, because he is so predictable …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, it is hon Clelland- Stokes.
Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, I forgot his surname; Mr Clelland-Stokes. [Laughter.] Because Mr Gibson is predictable, you know that regardless of whatever he is going to say, he is going to want to attack and criticise us. You can even prepare your speech along those lines. The opening line of my speech - let me read it to you - states: The DA is so predictable, we know that all they will have to say about the past 10 years will be negative. On the other hand, what else can they do but criticise? They do not have the power to change anything anyway. But when they did get the opportunity - you remember they got a small window of opportunity …
Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is the hon member making the speech that he would have made if I had spoken? [Laughter.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, take your seat, please. Thank you, hon member, you may continue.
Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, when they got the opportunity - for a short period of time they were in control of the Cape Town municipal area - what they left behind was utter chaos. [Interjections.] In fact, they said that they would do this, they would do that, they would put so many people on the streets and they would solve the country’s problems. You can talk through the problems, but coming up with solutions is something completely different.
When you had the opportunity you could not do it, because if you had done it, we would not have had the problems that still exist there now, right? [Applause.] I want to say to some of these members that it would do them a lot of good to think back to the period just prior to 1994, when they were stocking up on their canned food, buying candles, ammunition and guns. [Interjections.] They must remember that period and what they thought would happen. If you want to assess South Africa, you can’t assess it without looking at the past where we come from, the experiences that people had at that time and where we are now, if you want to be honest about it.
Of course, it is very difficult for them to be honest. I don’t know how they are going to cope with that. They must also look at what it was that we, who were oppressed by the discrimination in the past, came from. We couldn’t live where we wanted to live. They determined the laws on where we had to live. [Laughter.] We couldn’t travel on the buses or trains where we wanted to, we couldn’t get the jobs that we wanted to do …
Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is the topic the last 10 years or the last 50 years? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, that is not a point of order. Hon member, you may carry on.
Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, hon members, you see, when we talk about the real things that people suffered prior to 1994, when people were not allowed to do things like travel on the buses and the trains, when they couldn’t even go to the beach, and now you don’t agree … You can’t understand what it is, and then you have comments like the one Mr Cassie Aucamp is making now, because he doesn’t know what it was to go through those experiences. So, it can only be a joke to him. [Interjections.]
I am telling you that when we look at how we assess what we have gone through for the last 10 years, we start there from those experiences, and we can speak about what we have experienced ourselves. [Applause.]
Mr Clelland said - hon Mr Clelland-Stokes - nogal [what is more], that the poor have not seen the benefit of our policies. What do they know about the poor? [Interjections.] When have you been to the poor? Do you know what is going on in the townships? [Interjections.] Do you know the suffering that people are going through? [Interjections.] Don’t speak about the poor; you will make me cross. I will roll up my sleeves and you will see something else. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon member, please withdraw that. We have freedom of speech here, but no fracas. [Laughter.]
Mr M S MANIE: Deputy Chairperson, I withdraw that. But what I think is important is for us not to forget that all of these things that happened should be put in a context in which the experiences of what people are feeling - what they are going through now and where they have come from - are taken into account. Of course, there are many problems. We all acknowledge that South Africa has many problems that it must still deal with.
But many of those problems took them decades to create, and they are not going to be solved in a period of 10 years. To remind you, in these 10 years, we had to come up with a new Constitution. That is something that other people take decades just to draw up. We had to take all those apartheid laws and we had to replace them with new democratic laws; just that on its own would have taken us 10 years in another country.
On top of that, we have extended services regarding which you discriminated against our people. You said they couldn’t get the same pensions, the same schooling or the same houses, all of those things. We have managed to do so much. [Interjections.] I think what the President has indicated here is that we, as a country, have done much more than most countries can say they have done in 10 years for the people of their countries.
All I want to say, and I am going to conclude on this note, is that we can
have a much better country here if all the people work together; if we
don’t spend our time having to react to the policies, objections and
contradictions that we get, especially from the DA. Because, if they were
working with us, we could be taking those backlogs and together be finding
solutions for them. But they want to retain that old privileged
relationship of Baas en Klaas''. That can never come back again. But
instead of trying to retain it, I am asking you: Why don't you try and gain
votes on those things? Because the fear factor is the wrong one. You are
just polarising our society. It makes it more difficult for us to build a
nation where everybody forms part of the nation, because you are not part
of the process of building a nation. You are in fact polarising our
country, especially with policies likefighting back’’.
As one of my comrades said earlier, our policy is based on: South Africa belongs to all who live in it - black and white. We are saying that we want to create a better life for all. They are saying, on the other side, that they are fighting back. They are fighting those things back. It shows you that they have a long way to travel. Maybe we must all pray for them and hope that one day they will also be able to see the light, and help us create a new country for ourselves. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded. SPATIAL DATA INFRASTRUCTURE BILL
(Consideration of Bill)
There was no debate.
Mr L J MODISENYANE: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip, I move that the Bill be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to.
ALTERATION OF SEX DESCRIPTION AND SEX STATUS BILL
(Consideration of Bill)
There was no debate.
Mr L J MODISENYANE: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip, I move that the Bill be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to.
GENERAL INTELLIGENCE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill)
There was no debate.
Mr L J MODISENYANE: Chairperson, I move, on behalf of the Chief Whip, that the Bill be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to.
PETROLEUM PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill)
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the Bill be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to.
NATIONAL HEALTH BILL
(Consideration of Bill)
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the Bill be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL SYSTEMS AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill)
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the Bill be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL FINANCE MANAGEMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill)
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the Bill be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
Bill accordingly agreed to.
The House adjourned at 18:13. _______
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
WEDNESDAY, 26 NOVEMBER 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 November 2003 in terms
of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section
75 Bill:
(i) Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and
Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 74 - 2003] (National Assembly
- sec 75)
(2) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 November 2003 in terms
of Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill as a section
76 Bill:
(i) Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B 72 -
2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)
- Assent by President in respect of Bills:
(1) Natural Scientific Professions Bill [B 56D - 2002] - Act No 27
of 2003 (assented to and signed by President on 25 November 2003).
- Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:
(1) Bills passed by National Assembly on 26 November 2003:
(i) Spatial Data Infrastructure Bill [B 44D - 2003] (National
Assembly - sec 75)
(ii) Alteration of Sex Description and Sex Status Bill [B 37D -
2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)
(iii) General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill [B 47D - 2003]
(National Assembly - sec 75)
(iv) Petroleum Products Amendment Bill [B 25D - 2003] (National
Assembly - sec 75)
(v) National Health Bill [B 32D - 2003] (National Assembly -
sec 76)
(vi) Local Government: Municipal Systems Amendment Bill [B 49D
- 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)
(vii) Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Bill [B 1D
- 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75)
(2) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 26 November
2003:
(i) Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill [B
58B - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)
- Introduction of Bills:
(1) The Speaker and the Chairperson:
The following Bill was introduced by the Ad Hoc Committee on
Powers and Privileges of Parliament on 27 November 2003:
(i) Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and
Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 74 - 2003] (National Assembly
- sec 75)
National Assembly:
- Messages from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by Council and transmitted to Assembly:
(1) Bills, as amended, passed by Council on 26 November 2003 and
transmitted for consideration of Council's amendments:
(i) National Environmental Management: Protected Areas Bill [B
39D - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)
(ii) Environment Conservation Amendment Bill [B 45D - 2003]
(National Assembly - sec 76)
The Bills have, in terms of Rule 274(1)(a), been placed on the
Order Paper of the National Assembly for debate and decision.
(2) Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 26 November
2003 and transmitted for concurrence:
(i) National Environmental Management Second Amendment Bill [B
56B - 2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76)
(ii) National Environmental Management: Air Quality Bill [B 62B
- 2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76)
The Bills have been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Environmental Affairs and Tourism of the National Assembly.
- Referrals to committees of papers tabled:
The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
relevant committees as mentioned below:
(1) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Trade and Industry:
Report and Financial Statements of Technology for Women in
Business (TWIB) for 2003.
(2) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Justice and Constitutional Development:
(a) Report of the South African Law Reform Commission for 2002-
2003 [RP 192-2003].
(b) Letter dated 30 October 2003, from the President of the
Republic to the Speaker of the National Assembly, informing
Members of the National Assembly of the resignation of
Director of Public Prosecutions at Grahamstown.
(3) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Public Service and Administration:
Report of the Public Service Commission on Best Practice on Risk
Management Frameworks for the Public Service - April 2003.
(4) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Education. The Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on Public
Accounts for consideration and report:
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for
Educators (SACE) for 2002-2003, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.
(5) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements is referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:
Report and Financial Statements of the South African National
Parks for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General
on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.
(6) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Communications. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on Public
Accounts for consideration and report:
Report and Financial Statements of the Universal Service Agency
for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2002-2003.
(7) The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts for consideration:
(a) Letter dated 11 November 2003, from the Minister of
Environmental Affairs and Tourism to the Speaker of the
National Assembly, in terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public
Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining
the delay in the tabling of the Annual Report of the South
African National Parks for 2002-2003.
(b) Letter dated 12 November 2003, from the Minister of
Communications to the Speaker of the National Assembly, in
terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management
Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the
tabling of the Annual Report of the Universal Service Agency
for 2002-2003.
(8) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. The Reports of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements is referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the National English
Literary Museum for 2002-2003, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the South African
Language Board (PANSALB) for 2002-2003, including the Report
of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-
2003 [RP 166-2002].
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the South African
Heritage Resources Agency (SAHRA) for 2002-2003, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
2002-2003 [PR 104-2003].
(9) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Public Enterprises. The Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts for consideration and report:
Report and Financial Statements of Alexkor Limited for the
financial year ended June 2003, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for the year
ended June 2003.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Finance:
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Revenue Services
(SARS) for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 191-2003].
- The Minister of Trade and Industry:
Report and Financial Statements of the Industrial Development
Corporation of South Africa Limited for the year ended June 2003,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements for the year ended June 2003.
- The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
(a) Government Notice No R1660 published in Government Gazette No
25695 dated 12 November 2003: Regulations regarding reparations to
victims in terms of the Promotion of National Unity and
Reconciliation Act, 1995 (Act No 34 of 1995).
(b) Government Notice No R1623 published in Government Gazette No
25666 dated 7 November 2003: Amendment of regulations in terms of
the Debt Collectors Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).
- The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Veterinary Council
for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements for 2002-2003.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Third Report of the Joint Budget Committee, dated 20 November 2003:
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National Assembly:
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Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on Chairperson of National Lotteries Board, dated 26 November 2003:
The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered a request to make recommendations on a chairperson for the National Lotteries Board, in terms of section 3(3) of the Lotteries Act, 1997 (Act No. 57 of 1997), recommends that Mr J A Foster be appointed as chairperson.
Report to be considered.
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Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament, dated 26 November 2003:
The Ad Hoc Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament reports as follows:
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The Committee was established pursuant to a resolution of the House on 5 April 2001. It was tasked to consider the recommendations of the Joint Subcommittee on Powers and Privileges and the draft Bill prepared by the Subcommittee, and to introduce a Bill in accordance with chapter 13 of the Rules of the National Assembly.
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A copy of the draft Bill was published for comment in the Government Gazette of 11 July 2001. Two workshops were held at which Members and members of the public could make inputs. The Committee considered no less than twelve drafts of the Bill over a period of more than two years. Initially the Committee held conferring meetings with the Ad Hoc Select Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament of the National Council of Provinces, but that Committee had to withdraw from the process due to the nature of the Council’s programming.
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On 25 November 2003 the Committee agreed on the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 74 - 2003], and thereafter introduced the Bill by submitting a copy thereof to the Speaker in terms of Rule 243.
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With regard to the contents of the Bill, the Committee wishes to draw attention to the following:
(1) The Constitution provides for freedom of speech in Parliament and provincial legislatures, subject to the rules and orders. Therefore, the Bill does not deal with aspects such as the manner and form in which Members are to exercise their freedom of speech as Members and the limits of their freedom of speech. The Committee recommends that the respective Rules Committees should ensure that these aspects are adequately dealt with in the relevant standing rules and orders. In particular, it is recommended that the rules should as far as possible codify behaviour that is regarded as unparliamentary.
(2) The Committee noted that there are two apparent lacunae in the Constitution with regard to freedom of speech. Firstly, the Constitution does not specifically provide for freedom of speech in joint sittings of the two Houses of Parliament. Clause 6 of the Bill seeks to address this issue. Secondly, there is no provision in section 45 of the Constitution that a Deputy Minister who is not a Member has freedom of speech in a joint committee. It is recommended that these aspects be referred to the Constitutional Review Committee for attention.
(3) A further matter that should be noted with regard to the constitutional provisions relating to freedom of speech in Parliament is that an official in the national or a provincial executive has freedom of speech in the National Council of Provinces and its committees, but not in the National Assembly or before a committee of the Assembly or a joint committee (section 71, read with section 66, and sections 45 and 58 of the Constitution). In the Committee’s view it is advisable that there should be consistency in the freedom of speech provisions for the Houses; accordingly, it is recommended that this aspect should also be referred to the Constitutional Review Committee.
(4) The Committee was requested to consider whether the Bill should deal with the question of reflections upon members of the judiciary and the institutions mentioned in Chapter 9 of the Constitution. In the Committee’s view this is also a matter that should be dealt with in the standing rules, since any restriction in this regard would amount to a limitation of Members’ freedom of speech, which is a matter for the rules and orders in terms of sections 58(1), 71(1) and 117(1) of the Constitution.
(5) The Committee considered whether the Bill should make provision for privileges and immunities relating to the Pan-African Parliament and the SADC Parliamentary Forum. In the Committee’s view that matter should be addressed in separate legislation.
(6) Clause 12(2) provides that a House must appoint a standing committee to deal with enquiries relating to disciplinary action against Members for contempt. In terms of clause 12(3), the standing committee must conduct its enquiries in accordance with a procedure that is reasonable and procedurally fair. It is recommended that the procedure should be set out in the relevant rules, and that those rules should be in place when the legislation takes effect.
(7) Clause 13(d) envisages that the rules will provide which acts, in addition to those specified in clause 13(a), (b) and (c), constitute contempt (or a breach or abuse of parliamentary privilege). It is recommended that the Rules Committees consider, amongst others, whether reflections on members of the other House or of other legislatures and the deliberate misleading of the House or a committee should be declared contempt.
(8) In the light of the provisions of the Bill relating to penalties for contempt, Part 3 of Chapter 15 of the National Assembly Rules will have to be reviewed, amongst others in relation to the commitment of Members to the custody of the Sergeant-at Arms (rule 320) and the maximum amount of a fine (rule 321).
(9) The Committee considered whether the Bill should provide for loss of membership or other sanctions for non- attendance of meetings of the Houses or committees. However, in the Committee’s view this matter should be dealt with in the respective rules and orders, as envisaged by sections 47(3)(b), 62(4)(e) and 106(3)(b) of the Constitution and sections 3(5) and 6(6) of the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act, 1998.
(10)The Committee also considered whether provisions of the draft Code of Conduct for Members should be incorporated into the Bill, but in the Committee’s view it would not be advisable to do so. Therefore, it is recommended that matters such as Members’ conflict of financial interests should be dealt with in the Code of Conduct.
(11)The Bill does not make any provision with regard to the financial arrangements of Parliament and provincial legislatures since the Committee has been informed that the matter is to be dealt with in separate legislation. It is proposed that in the interim, section 31 of the existing Powers and Privileges of Parliament Act, 1963, which regulates Parliament’s financial arrangements, should remain on the statute book (clause 31 of the Bill, read with the Schedule).
(12)Chapter 8 of the Bill provides for the application of the legislation to provincial legislatures. Provincial legislatures will have to establish in how far their own legislation and rules need to be adapted or supplemented. In particular, attention is drawn to the fact that Chapter 5 (Witnesses) will not be applicable to provincial legislatures since section 115(c) of the Constitution requires this aspect to be dealt with in provincial legislation or the rules and orders of the respective provincial legislatures. (13)In addition to the abovementioned cases that require new or amended rules, arising from the legislation, provision will have to be made in the Rules in respect of the following, amongst others:
(a) The procedure for initiating disciplinary action against a Member (clause 12); (b) witness fees (clause 14(6)); (c) limitations as to the type of subject matter about which a witness may be questioned or the type of document that a witness may be required to produce (clause 15(b)); (d) the broadcasting or televising of proceedings (clause 21); (e) the recording of responses of members of the public (clause 25).
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Report to be considered.
- Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on Study Visit to North West, dated 21 November 2003:
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- Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on Oversight Visits, dated 21 November 2003:
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