National Council of Provinces - 12 March 2003
WEDNESDAY, 12 MARCH 2003 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
In accordance with a resolution in terms of Rule 21, adopted by the Council on 27 February 2003, the Council met at Taung, North West, at 09:42.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
NEW MEMBERS
(Announcement)
The Deputy Chairperson announced that the vacancies in the representation of Gauteng had been filled by the appointment of Ms D M Ramodibe and Ms B N Sono with effect from 27 February 2003. Ms Ramodibe had made and subscribed the solemn oath and Ms Sono had made and subscribed an affirmation in the office of the Chairperson on 28 February 2003. The vacancy in the representation of the Eastern Cape had been filled by the appointment of Ms N C Kondlo with effect from 21 February 2003. Ms Kondlo had made and subscribed an affirmation in the office of the Chairperson on 4 March 2003.
NOTICE OF MOTION
Mr N M RAJU: Thank you, Chair. I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:
That the Council -
(1) notes that former ANC Chief Whip Tony Yengeni, having pleaded guilty to defrauding Parliament by not disclosing the discount on a car purchased from a company involved in the arms deal, has resigned from Parliament;
(2) welcomes with approbation the valiant act of Frene Ginwala, the Speaker of the national Parliament when, in a crusade to defend the dignity and honour of South Africa’s nascent and fragile democracy, she had proposed that Tony Yengeni should resign from Parliament …
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: I would have imagined that the hon Nelson Raju would have been aware of the fact the Speaker is the Speaker of the National Assembly and not of the national Parliament. Tony Yengeni was the Chief Whip of the Majority Party in the National Assembly and not of Parliament as such. Perhaps he should consult with the ANC so that we could educate him in terms of the constitutional dispensation. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Just bearing in mind that remark, continue, hon Raju.
Mr N M RAJU:
(2) welcomes with approbation the valiant act of Frene Ginwala, the Speaker of the national Parliament …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Hon Raju, there’s no Speaker of the national Parliament. [Interjections.] Mr N M RAJU: The Speaker of the National Assembly, Sir.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Continue. [Interjections.]
Mr N M RAJU: Sorry.
... when, in a crusade to defend the dignity and honour of South
Africa's nascent and fragile democracy, she had proposed that Tony
Yengeni should resign from Parliament, in the face of unbecoming
dilatoriness by his honourable colleagues in the ruling party from
acting decisively in this sordid affair, much like an umpire's limpid
response when asked ``how's that?'' after the batsman was clearly
caught behind - ``I leave the decision to the batsman's conscience!''
OPPOSITION TO WAR ON IRAQ
(Draft Resolution)
Moruti M CHABAKU: Modulasetilo, ke kopa go dira tshitshinyo kwa ntle ga kitsiso: Gore Khansele -
(1) e lemoge gore -
(a) go ka nne ga nna le ntwa kgatlhanong le Iraq;
(b) America le Borithane di tlhotlheletsa mafatshe a mangwe go
lwantsha Iraq.
(c) ntwa eo e ka ama bokamoso jwa Aforika yotlhe; ya lere
matlhotlhapelo gareng ga dikhutsa, batlhologadi le batsofe ba ba
senang molato ba kwa Iraq; mme ya oketsa letlhoo kgatlhanong le
mebuso e e emang nokeng tlhaselo eo.
(2) e ikuele mo -
(a) phuthegong e e neng e tsenetse Khansele kwa Mmabatho, ka
Mopitlwe 2003, gore e eme nokeng maitlhomo a Puso a go rotloetsa
dinaga tse pedi tseo gore di seka tsa tlhasela Iraq;
(b) bathong ba lefatshe go emela pegelo ya batlhatlhobi go bona gore
aa Iraq e fedisitse dibetsa tsa yona tsa thubakanyo ya bontsi,
jaaka Dinaga Kopano di laetse;
(c) go Ma-Aforika Borwa go tshegetsa dinaga tse di kgatlhanong le
ntwa, le go ema nokeng tshwetso ya Dinaga Kopano mo ntlheng e.
(3) e dumela gore -
(a) jaaka lefatshe le laetse Iraq go fedisa dibetsa tsa yona tsa
thubakanyo ya bontsi, Israele, Amerika, Borithane le dinaga tse
dingwe tse di nang le dibetsa tseo le tsona di tshwanetse go
dira jalo; mme
(b) batho botlhe ba tshwanetse go nna kgatlhanong le ntwa
gotlhelele. (Translation of Setswana motion without notice follows.)
[That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) war might soon be waged against Iraq;
(b) America and Britain are encouraging the world to wage this war;
(c) such a war would adversely affect the future of the entire
African continent, bring misery to innocent orphans, widows and
the aged in Iraq and perpetuate hate against the pro-war
countries;
(2) calls on -
(a) the people assembled in Mmabatho, in March 2003, to support the
Government in its efforts to dissuade those two countries from
going to war against Iraq;
(b) the world to wait for the report of the inspectors to see if
Iraq did destroy its weapons of mass destruction, as instructed
by the UN;
(c) South Africans to support those nations who are opposed to war
and stand by the UN's decision on the matter;
(3) believes that - (a) just as the world is calling on Iraq to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction, Israel, America, Britain and all the other countries that have such weapons should follow suit; and
(b) all people should be totally opposed to any form of war.]
[Applause.]
Mr G A LUCAS: Chairperson, I would just like to move as an amendment:
That, in paragraph (2)(a), “Mmabatho” be substituted by “Taung”.
Amendment agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, namely: That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) war might soon be waged against Iraq;
(b) America and Britain are encouraging the world to wage this war;
(c) such a war would adversely affect the future of the entire
African continent, bring misery to innocent orphans, widows and
the aged in Iraq and perpetuate hate against the pro-war
countries;
(2) calls on -
(a) the people assembled in Taung, in March 2003, to support the
Government in its efforts to dissuade those two countries from
going to war against Iraq;
(b) the world to wait for the report of the inspectors to see if
Iraq did destroy its weapons of mass destruction, as instructed
by the UN;
(c) South Africans to support those nations who are opposed to war
and stand by the UN's decision on the matter; (3) believes that -
(a) just as the world is calling on Iraq to dismantle its weapons of
mass destruction, Israel, America, Britain and all the other
countries that have such weapons should follow suit; and
(b) all people should be totally opposed to any form of war.
GOVERNMENT'S FOOD SECURITY AND NUTRITION PROGRAMME
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M A SULLIMAN: Deputy Chair, I rise on behalf of the ANC to move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with pride -
(a) the unwavering commitment of the Government, through the
integrated food security and nutrition programme to push back
the frontiers of poverty among vulnerable groups who, due to
poverty and rising food prices cannot afford adequate and
nutritious food;
(b) that the Government has set aside R1,2 billion for the next
three years, with R400 million targeted for 2002/2003;
(c) that R230 million is earmarked to benefit an estimated 200 000
poor households over the next three months;
(2) calls on community leaders and particularly public representatives to play a critical role in ensuring that the food parcels benefit rightful beneficiaries; and
(3) congratulates the Government on its consistency in pushing back the frontiers of poverty.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
INCREASED NUMBER OF TOURISTS TO SOUTH AFRICA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) 6,4 million tourists visited South Africa last year, an increase
of 1,8 million on 2001 figures;
(b) whilst the rest of the world has experienced a drop in the
number of tourists to every tourist destination, South Africa is
now the fastest growing tourist destination in the world;
(c) while the Kruger National Park and Cape Town were the major
attractions, many tourists were also venturing into other parts
of the country; and
(d) the experience that the tourists got from locals of all walks of
life was apparently the biggest factor in the growth of tourism;
and (2) in the light of the fact that tourism is one of the quickest and most
effective ways of providing much-needed cash injections and more job
opportunities in local economies, urges all the provincial
legislatures, provincial governments, local authorities, businesses
and residents to develop the potential for tourism in their
respective provinces and communities to the fullest, for example in
this area where the Council is sitting today, the site where the
Taung skull was found, as this will contribute significantly to the
eradication of poverty amongst all our people.
[Applause.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SCHOOL FEEDING SCHEME IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Draft Resolution)
Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Mphathisihlalo, ngiphakamisa ngaphandle kokwenza isaziso [Chairperson, I move without notice]: Ukuthi lo mKhandlu -
(1) uyawuncoma umNyango wezeMpilo kazwelonke owenza ukuba abantwana besikole emazingeni aphansi bathole ukudla ezikoleni;
(2) uyathokoza ukuzwa ukuthi lolu hlelo lukaHulumeni luhamba kahle kakhulu KwaZulu-Natali; futhi
(3) uphinde unxuse ukuthi sengathi othisha bangaluphatha kahle lolu hlelo ukuze abantwana bafunde kahle bondlekile.
[That the Council -
(1) commends the national Department of Health for providing primary school children with food;
(2) expresses its appreciation that this Government scheme is doing well in KwaZulu-Natal; and
(3) appeals to teachers to run the scheme properly in order to enable children to learn under suitable conditions while well-fed.] Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
PAPRIKA PROJECT IN NAMAQUALAND
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D M KGWARE: Deputy Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council notes -
(1) the opening of Namaqualand’s new R120 million paprika project run jointly by the Government and private investors;
(2) that the first crop of the region’s 55 newly settled paprika farmers is soon to be processed there into oleoresin, an extracted paprika oil and paprika powder for the Dutch market;
(3) that South Africa is now No 2 in terms of quality on the European paprika market, second only to Hungary; and
(4) that the factory and farm will have created 1 500 new jobs by October for the impoverished surrounding communities.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
LEGAL ACTION FOR OUTSTANDING SCHOOL FEES
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I wish to move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) the account of an orphaned student has been handed over to debt
collectors for owing R50 in school fees;
(b) Lunga Kowani, 18 of Lungisa High School in Humansdorp, only
managed to pay half of his fees of R100 last year;
(c) he received a letter of demand from lawyers, Snyman and
Partners, insisting that he settles the amount which had risen
to R80 including interest and VAT; and
(d) Lungisa High School handed over a total of 76 accounts of pupils
owing the school;
(2) condemns in its strongest terms the fact that accounts of students have been handed over to debt collectors;
(3) further notes that orphans automatically qualify for exemption from paying school fees; and
(4) is of the opinion that what the principal did must be put to an end immediately.
[Applause.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
ELIMINATION OF SOUTH AFRICA FROM CRICKET WORLD CUP
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N M RAJU: Deputy Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) the general perception seems to be that Providence conspired
with the elements to disqualify the SA Proteas from proceeding
to the Super Six stage of the Cricket World Cup fixtures when
they played Sri Lanka at Kingsmead on Monday, 3 March 2003;
(b) this unfortunate result visited upon the nation's cricketing
warriors has filled the South African public with deep despair,
consternation and grief; (2) expects the South African cricketers to refrain from making nebulous
complaints about rain, Duckworth-Lewis, luck, injuries, the media and
other excuses to distract attention from poor performances; and
(3) calls upon the nation to support the World Cup and to rally behind our co-hosts Zimbabwe and Kenya who, having qualified to the Super Six level, are vying with each other to carry the flag for all Africa.
[Applause.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
IMPORTANCE OF SITTING OF NCOP IN TAUNG
(Draft Resolution)
Mme M P THEMBA: Modulasetilo, ke kopa go dira tshitshinyo kwa ntle ga kitsiso:
Gore Khansele -
(1) e lemoge gore -
(a) Khansele ya Bosetshaba ya Diporofense e tsenetse mo Taung, mme
batho ba kwao ba ne ba tshologela kwa kopanong ka ba nnile le
kgatlego e tona mo tiragalong eo;
(b) botlhokwa jwa gore Puso le setshaba ba nne le dikgolagano tse di
lolameng;
(c) karolo e e tserweng ke Sebui sa Kgotlapeomolao ya Bokone-
Bophirima, go akaretsa le Tonakgolo, Balekgotlakhuduthamaga,
magosi le baemedi ba bangwe go netefatsa katlego ya lenaneo leno
la go fitlhelela batho.
(2) e swetse go -
(a) rarolola mathata a loago le a ikonomi, go kobilwe go
kgoromeletsa kwa morago mabopo kgotsa melelwane ya bohuma;
(b) tswelela ka morero wa go lere demokerasi kwa bathong ka go tsaya
maeto a mangwe gape a a ntseng jalo. (Translation of Setswana draft resolution follows.)
[That the Council -
(1) notes -
(a) that the National Council of Provinces is sitting in Taung and
there has been a great deal of interest in this development from
the people of Taung;
(b) the importance of regular contact between the people and
Government;
(c) the role played by the Speaker of the North West Legislature, as
well as the Premier, MECs, magosi and other representatives to
ensure the success of this programme of reaching out to the
people;
(2) undertakes to -
(a) deal with social and economic problems, as part of the effort to
push back the frontiers of poverty; and
(b) continue with efforts to bring democracy to the people by
undertaking more of such trips.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
AFRICAN UNION, NEPAD, PEER REVIEW MECHANISM
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T S SETONA: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) recognises the importance of good governance and democracy for the promotion of a united, prosperous and peaceful Africa;
(2) commends the Government for its role in establishing and backing the African Union;
(3) further acknowledges the importance of Nepad in seeking to bring about the socio-economic transformation of Africa;
(4) notes the importance of the peer review mechanism for good governance and sound democratic practices;
(5) commends South Africa, Algeria, Nigeria and other African states for their commitment to the agreed peer review mechanism; and
(6) affirms that this is the beginning stage of developing a consensus among the remaining states to embrace the peer review mechanism.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
[Applause.]
LEGISLATIVE AND OTHER MEASURES REQUIRED TO PUSH BACK FRONTIERS OF POVERTY
(Subject for Discussion)
Mr P D N MALOYI: Modulasetilo, ke ne ke gopotse gore e tla re fa ke bua ka bo ke tla kwa godimo koo, fela maloko … [Tsenoganong.] [Chairperson, I thought you would allow me to make my speech up there, but the members … [Interjections.]]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! You are welcome to come up here. You are very welcome, Mr Maloyi. [Applause.] It is very important in your province for the people to see you very well. That is another thing. [Laughter.]
Mr P D N MALOYI: Ke a go leboga, Modulasetilo [Thank you, Chairperson]. This feels more comfortable.
Motlatsa Modulasetilo wa Khansele ya Bosetshaba ya Diporofense mo Kapa Bophirima, maloko a Khansele … [Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP here in the North West, members of the Council …] distinguished guests, comrades and friends …
… re kopana gompieno fa Taung mo Mmabana, e le morago ga fa re sena go kopana le setshaba sa Taung: baswa, bomme, batsofe, jalojalo. Fa re kopane le batho bao go tswa dikarolong tsotlhe tsa Taung, ba re bolelela mathata ao ba tsamayang ba kopana le ona, re utlweletse re le maloko a Palamente mme re ile ra ikana jaaka fa re ne re ikana ka 1994 fa re tsena mo Pusong, gore tiro e kgolo ya rona, bogolosegolo maloko a ANC, ke go lwantsha bohumanegi le tlala.
Re kopakopane le dikgwetlho tseo jaaka maloko a Palamente gore fa le leka go lwantsha bohumanegi le tlala, go na le dilo dingwe fa pele ga rona tse di tsamayang di re kgoreletsa, mme mmogo le batho ba re neng re kopane le bona fa mo malatsing a le mabedi a a fetileng, re ile ra bona go le botlhokwa thata gore re bone mekgwa e re ka dirang ka yona gore bohumanegi jo bo fele.
Mo dingwageng di le dintsi thata batho ba rona, Ma-Aforika bogolosegolo, ba ne ba gateletswe thata, ke ka moo fa o tsamaya sekhutlho sengwe le sengwe sa Aforika Borwa, o tla bona batho ba rona ba sotlegile thata ka ntata ya ditiro tsa puso e e fetileng ya kgatelelo. Le fa go le jalo rona re le mokgatlho wa ANC le maloko a Palamente a a ikaeletseng go fetola seemo sa batho ba rona, ra re … we are not proud of the past … mme fela re a itse gore … [but that notwithstanding … we are very confident about the future.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[… we meet here in Mmabana, Taung, after meeting with the community of Taung, ie the youth, our mothers, the elderly, etc. We met these people, who came from all the areas of Taung, and they briefed us about the problems they are experiencing. We as members of Parliament listened attentively to these people and concluded, just as we did when we came into Government in 1994, that we have a huge task ahead of us in fighting poverty and hunger; more especially we, the members of the ANC.
We realised, as members of Parliament, that there were obstacles that were making it difficult to fight poverty and hunger, and our challenge, together with the people we met over the past two days, is to find ways to work together to eradicate this poverty.
For many years our people, more especially Africans, were oppressed. That is why, when one goes to any corner of South Africa, one still comes across many people who are still suffering because of the previous oppressive government. However, we as members of the ANC, together with those members of Parliament who want to improve our people’s lives, are saying that …]
O tla dumalana le nna, Modulasetilo, gore ntwa eno ya bohumanegi jaaka ke buile, fa re tsamaya re ntse re e lwantsha, re re re a e fedisa, re tsamaya re kopana le matlapa re kgopiwa, mme fela re tlile go fitlha kwa re yang teng, ka gonne re itse kwa re yang teng.
Ke solofetsa setshaba sa Taung le setshaba sa Aforika Borwa ka bophara gore mokgatlho wa ANC o o eteletseng Puso e ntshwa ya temokerasi, ga o kitsa o lo rekisa. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[You would agree with me, Chairperson, that we have come across many obstacles on our road to fighting and eradicating this poverty, but we are determined to reach our destination, because we know where we are going.
I promise the people of Taung, and of South Africa in general, that the ANC, which is leading the new, democratic Government, will not sell you out.]
We won’t betray you.
Le tla dumalana le nna gore go lwantsha bohumanegi go kwa godimo thata mo lenaneong la rona la Puso. Go bontsha gore lenaneo leo le kwa godimo mo dithulaganyong, ka 12 Ferikgong 2003 kwa lefatsheng la Bafokeng, teng mo Bokone Bophirima, Moporesidente wa naga, e leng Rre Thabo Mbeki, a bua mo boemeng jwa mokgatlho wa ANC, o ne a re:
We should pay particular attention to the struggle against poverty. This must entail a detailed and integrated programme of action against poverty.
Ke seo Moporesidente a se buileng kwa Phokeng, kwa lefatsheng la Bafokeng mo Bokone Bophirima. Seo se bontsha gore mokgatlho wa ANC o bone go le botlhokwa thata gore ngwagakgolong o, re dire ka maatla a a kgonagalang gore lehuma le fele mo nageng ya Aforika Borwa.
Moporesidente, mo puong ya gagwe ka ga maemo mo nageng, o rile:
Our country has a continuing task to push back the frontiers of poverty and expand access to a better life for all.
Moporesidente o buile seno a le kwa Phokeng, mme a bontsha gore se re se buang re le ANC ga se maaka. Ga re bolelele batho, re le ANC, gore re tlile go dira sele le sele fela gore re boutelwe. O ile a ya kwa Palamenteng kwa molao o dirwang teng mme morago o tsenngwe tirisong. O ne a fitlha a re bolelela, re le Palamente ya Aforika Borwa, gore go botlhokwa thata gore re lwantshe bohumanegi, mme re nne le mananeo a a tla re bontshang gore re tlile go bo lwantsha jang. Ke seo Moporesidente a se buileng.
Le tla gakologelwa gore mo nageng ya Aforika Borwa re na le diporofense di le robongwe, mme nngwe ya tsona e e botlhokwa ke porofense ya Bokone Bophirima. Go tsaya fa Moporesidente a tlogetseng teng, Tonakgolo ya Bokone Bophirima, Rre Popo Molefe, fa le ene a ne a bua, ga a ka a bua fela go sena koo a simololang teng. O ile a simolola kwa Phokeng, morago a re latelela kwa Motse Kapa, mme fa a tswa kwa teng a tla kwano. Ke gore o ne a dira gore se re se buang se fitlhe mo bathong ba Taung le ba Bokone Bophirima. Ene fa a ne a bua, o ne a re:
The economy is not growing fast enough to respond more aggressively to the challenges of poverty and joblessness. There is a section of our workforce that is unemployable.
Le ene o ile a bontsha gore jaaka re batla go lwantsha bohumanegi le tlala, le fa ikonomi ya rona e ntse e gola, ga e gole ka lebelo le re le batlang. Go botlhokwa thata gore re dire gore e gole ka lebelo le re le batlang, gore ka moso e tsenye batho ba rona ba ba humanegileng go nna karolo ya ikonomi. Seo se tla dira gore bosigo fa ba ya go robala, ba ipone ba na le borotho mo tafoleng, go na le metsi a a tshwanang le a a monate a ke a nwang a. Ke seo a neng a se bua.
O ne a tswelela a bua gore mo gare ga rona go na le batho ba le bantsi, bogolosegolo baswa, bao bangwe ba bona ba tswang dikolong e bile ba na le dikerii, jalojalo, mme fela dithuto tseo ba nang le tsona ga di kgone go ba tsenya mo tirong ka gonne o tla fitlhela ba le bantsi ba rona re le barutabana, mme re se baenjinere, jalojalo.
O ne a bontsha go le botlhokwa thata gore e nngwe ya dilo tse di botlhokwatlhokwa go dirwa ke Puso ya bosetshaba ke go katisa batho ba rona gore ba kgone go tsena mo ikonoming le go nna karolo ya rona fa re ntse re tsamaya re tswelela pele. Ke selo seo Rre Molefe a se buileng, mme a tsaya mafoko go tswa kwa mafokong a ga Moporesidente. Ke dumela gore rotlhe re dumalana le ene ka ntlha eo. [Tsenoganong.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[You would agree with me that fighting poverty is at the top of our Government’s priority programmes. Just to show that this programme is a top priority, on 12 February 2003 the country’s President, Mr Thabo Mbeki, speaking on behalf of the ANC in the Bafokeng area here in the North West, said:
We should pay particular attention to the struggle against poverty. This must entail a detailed and integrated programme of action against poverty.
That is what the President said in Phokeng, here in the North West. That shows that the ANC deems it necessary for us to work hard to eradicate poverty in South Africa this century.
On the question of prevailing conditions in the country, the President said:
Our country has a continuing task to push back the frontiers of poverty and expand access to a better life for all.
The President was showing the people gathered at Phokeng that what we as the ANC say is not a lie. We as the ANC do not promise people this and that just so that they would vote for us. He went back to Parliament, where laws are made and then implemented. He told us in the Parliament of South Africa that it is very important to fight poverty, and said that we should have programmes in place to do that. That is what the President said.
You will recall that we have nine provinces in South Africa, and one of the most important ones is the North West province. Picking up from where the President left off, the Premier of the North West, Mr Popo Molefe, had a good place to start. He started the trend in Phokeng and followed it up in Cape Town, after which he came back here. He wanted to make sure that our message reaches the people of Taung and of the North West. In his speech, he said:
The economy is not growing fast enough to respond more aggressively to the challenges of poverty and joblessness. There is a section of our workforce that is unemployable.
He also said that in an effort to fight poverty and hunger, our economy is growing, even though this is not happening as fast as we would want it to. It is important for us to make it grow at the speed we envisage, to ensure that in the future our people, who are still poor, become part of this economy. That will ensure that at night our people have food on their tables, and water to drink, just like this tasty water that I’m drinking now. That is what he was talking about.
He went on to say that a lot of people, more especially the youth, take courses and go on to finish their degrees, etc, but many of them end up unemployed because the courses they do are not in demand, so usually many of them become teachers, as opposed to engineers, and so on.
He said that one of the most important things done by the national Government was to train people, so as to enable them to be part of the economy and move forward with us. That is what Mr Molefe said, taking his cue from the President. I believe that we all agree with him on this point. [Interjections.]]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, I thought I had 10 minutes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Yes, you did.
Mr P NOE (Free State): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Chair, permanent and special delegates, executive mayors, Speakers, councillors and members of the community, it is indeed true that the main challenge facing our country today is to continue with the reconstruction and development of our country, but at a faster pace for the eradication of the remaining remnants of colonialism and apartheid.
At the core of this challenge is the objective of the eradication of poverty, and hence we have adopted the appropriate programme of pushing back the frontiers of poverty. Given the nature of the problem we have inherited, it will take time and a united national effort to eradicate poverty in our country. This statement, however, is not intended to justify inaction and indecisiveness on our part. While the main traditional employment sectors, that is the public and private sectors, government, mining, agriculture and manufacturing, have scaled down their labour absorption, it does not mean that they have been absolved of their obligations towards the efforts of job creation initiatives.
The Government has identified and rolled out concrete programmes to make a significant impact on the fight against poverty. In this regard, the acceleration of programmes in the rural development and urban renewal nodes has received prime attention.
Deputy Chairperson, allow me therefore to highlight some critical interventions made by the Free State government in pushing back the frontiers of poverty through the people development cluster, comprising the following departments: education, agriculture, social development and sports, arts, culture, science and technology. Hovever, I will only focus on one department, that is the department of agriculture, as I cannot mention all the departments.
The department of agriculture in our province has about 146 community-based projects currently running. The first one is poultry, which was kick- started last year in November and has created about 42 sustainable jobs. This programme generates in the region of R114 000 per week. They have their own chicken abattoir and keep in stock at least 100 chickens.
Secondly, the apple project currently sustains about 102 families on the farm. This is one of the exporting projects in small-scale farming that we as a province are proud of.
Thirdly, we have about 246 Land Redistribution for Agricultural Development, or LRAD, projects, which were kick-started in August 2001, benefiting about 1 642 households, and I can mention three of the activities going on there. One is the dairy, which sustains about 50 families, and there are those who keep sheep. If I may scare you now by talking about their bank balance, they have R58 000 in the bank and those who keep livestock have, as I speak, R186 000.
Last, but not least, the food security project kick-started in December 2002 currently benefits 72 families. One example is that each family receives garden implements worth R4 500 and is supplied with seed to start up home gardens and with food packages for at least three months to give the family a start. The families benefiting from this programme are destitute families that make an income of at least R200 and also HIV/Aids- affected or child-headed families. It is intended to expand this programme to the schools, so that parents who cannot afford to pay school fees will be required to work in the school gardens as their contribution.
As for the community-based public works programme, currently about seven community projects are running. This includes the renovation of community halls and clinics and the erection of crèches and community halls. These projects employ in the region of 20 to 30 people, biased to women and the youth. They also offer accredited training, and the number of people who have been trained as we are talking now is about 232 in skills that pertain to emerging entrepreneurs, carpentry, painting and management skills. This includes Abet training in literacy and numeracy for at least 12 months, because we know that most of the people that respond to these projects do not have basic education. This is one contribution of the projects.
Also we know that there are people who have been working with the main contractors who have not been able to obtain certificates but have skills. We have engaged the Department of Labour in this regard to accredit these people, and, as we speak today, they are certified as skilled entrepreneurs.
Let me now focus on legislation. It has become imperative to ensure that every programme that Government introduces is protected by legislation to a certain extent. Programmes have collapsed before they can even take off, or even end in the middle of nowhere, precisely because of the absence of regulatory measures. Unscrupulous people have also taken the advantage of this shortcoming by robbing those living in poverty and simply getting away with it. It often happens that people are awarded tenders by government and then fail to honour certain service standards or to meet their obligations. Just to give an example, a contractor will fail to pay his or her employees or will cheat a subcontractor.
In that scenario a government is not able to intervene immediately, and in the meantime the project suffers to the extent that it is suspended and the affected people sometimes threaten to go on strike. We saw a clear example when we visited one of the schools. At Mabalane Middle School, a project which started last year in August is now on hold because the contractor alleges that he does not have money and people have not been paid for two months - and there is nothing that the government can do. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mrs B SONO: Thank you, Chair, the two previous speakers set a precedent. Because there are no stairs on the other side that I could use, I have just quickly written a letter to the Table to see if protocol would allow me to pass in front of the Chairperson in order to approach the podium.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): It’s fine, we’ll break that rule. You can come, it’s OK. Come through.
[Applause.]
Mrs B N SONO: Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Ke tla kopa gore lo ntetleng go bua sekgowa, ka gonne Setswana sa me se bokoa, le gale ke tla se leka. Go tlhabolola ikonomi ya batho, e e sentsweng ke puso ya tlhaolele, ka maikaelelo a go kgoromeletsa kwa morago maparego a bohuma, ga se metshameko. Rona re le mokgatlo wa DP, re tsamaisana le bontsi ba melao le mananeo a a tlhomilweng ke Puso, ke raya melao e e tshwanang le molao wa tekatekano (equity law), affirmative action, black empowerment, jalo jalo. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[I would request that I be allowed to speak English, because my Setswana is very weak. But I will try my best. Improving the people’s economy - which was destroyed by the apartheid government - with the intention of pushing back the frontiers of poverty is not child’s play. We as the DP agree with most of the programmes set by Government, ie laws like the equity law, affirmative action, black empowerment, etc.]
Excessive legislation becomes a bit problematic. The DP is in favour of restricted legislation controls and regulations regarding the development of an economy and addressing employment creation. The DP believes strongly in the creative powers of the people. In state policies and measures, the focus should be geared towards creating conditions for innovation in order for people to flourish.
Since 1999, both Houses, the NCOP and the National Assembly, have passed many laws which have required that statutory bodies be established to oversee compliance, but not much attention has been given to implementation of policies and measures, even the very laws that have been enacted.
I’ll give an example of a problem that gets created by that. If you look at all the departmental budgets, taking even the national Budget and all the state’s departmental budgets, you’ll see that 65%, or close to 75%, goes towards salaries for bureaucracies. Plus-minus 25% or 30% then goes to the actual implementation of programmes and measures that could help the ordinary man in the street.
For example, we recently passed a piece of legislation, Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill, which was passed particularly to oversee what we call ambush marketing for the duration of the cricket series. There are two provinces which have cricket stadiums in the townships. One is in Port Elizabeth and the other one is in Soweto.
That ambush marketing amendment allowed the cricket board to penalise even the selling of products like Coca-Cola and the wearing of T-shirts displaying the Coca-Cola emblem. All those people had to be 200 metres away from the stadiums.
Sa ntlha, batho ba rona ga ba na kitso. Sa bobedi, bomme ba tshola di ``cooler bags’’ go ya go rekisa fa go na le metshameko e metona kwa mapatlelong. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Firstly, our people lack knowledge. Secondly, women carry cooler bags to go and sell their wares whenever there is a big match at the stadium.] Because of that type of legislation, for instance, for the duration of the cricket series, we haven’t been able to help the very people that we are supposed to be helping. When we legislate excessively, we really need to look at how that legislation impacts on the very goals of Government.
Ka Mosupologo fa re goroga, re etetse dikolo tse di jaaka, sekolo sa loago kwa Bogasing. [On Monday, when we arrived we visited schools like the community school at Bogasing.]
It is a community school that we visited. For all these years it had good results, comparable to those of a state-sponsored school, and it is a very poor school. Because of the law and the formula that is in place, consideration was never given to how one ought to develop such schools and extract them from the poverty trap.
Ke gore go di kgontsa go fitlhelela maemo a a tshwanetseng. [That is, to enable them to reach the required standard.]
Equitable share is not possible. When we legislate and when we make policy measures, we really need to take into consideration. Se re se lemogileng gape ke gore … [Again, what we have observed is that … ]
… the Taung Heritage Site has been declared a World Heritage Site.
Fa re ne re etetse dikolo tse, palo ya basetsana ba ba ithutelang saense mo phaposing e ne e le 30. [When we visited these schools, we found that the number of girls studying science was about 30 per classroom.]
We can legislate now. We have the instruments. There is affirmative action. We need to start synergising. Legislation is in place and it’s a national competency of the National Council of Provinces to come out with measures and policies that will start synergising and seeing to it that the legislation that has been enacted starts impacting on our people.
For instance, when I was looking at it, there was a classroom full of children who were doing science. The hon Khunwana lamented the fact that this was a mining town. The infrastructure is there. We got to learn when we went there that they exported lime, and the best was exported out of the province. But can we create secondary industries out of what is remaining, because the infrastructure is there. [Time expired.]
Mr S H GQOBANA (Eastern Cape): Chairperson of the NCOP, permanent delegates, special delegates from various provinces, councillors, traditional leaders and our people, I greet you in the name of the Eastern Cape. [Interjections.] Hon Deputy Chair, I am not going to waste my little time by responding to the previous speaker.
The transition to economic prosperity is accompanied by a corrosive poverty, more especially in the rural areas of our province. There is also a glaring infrastructural backlog. Against this background, the province has developed and designed a rural development strategy. Central to this perspective is the integrated food security programme, an attempt to meet the basic food requirements. The land redistribution agricultural programme has made more land available to the communal farmers in the province.
It has become clear to the provincial government that four departments are critical and that they must take the forefront in the fight against poverty. Those departments are health, agriculture, social development and local government. The focus of government is on the massive food production programme, and aligned to the programme is rapid food production, which is intended for households. The department of agriculture is helping households with agricultural imports and technical expertise provided by agricultural extension officers. On the massive food front, the department requires the development of entrepreneurs who would be assisted with tractors so that mechanisation can take place as soon as possible.
In pushing back the frontiers of poverty, firstly we need to produce as much food as possible. Secondly, irrigation infrastructure must be put in place in areas which receive less than 600 mm of rain a year. These are not merely plans. As we speak, some tractors have been secured. The Freedom Charter provides that the state will buy equipment and tractors for peasant farmers, and if they were peasant farmers in 1955, that has not changed; they are still peasant farmers. It is only the movement that changed this from the bondage of poverty to economic prosperity.
In the majority of the fields our first co-operatives are now being formed. Fields are grouped together so that these co-operatives are easy to establish. The departments of agriculture, social development and health, as well as local government, using the IDP, are now establishing local economic development zones. Underpinning this process is mechanisation for crop, food and fibre production.
Commodity groupings are in place. These are the groups that must produce for the province, and the government has put together a crop scheme to assist these groups, and not only with technical resources. The core business of these groups is commodity production. In the maize belt, which ranges from 600 mm to 1 200 mm of rain, the land has been prepared and, with financial assistance, is expected to move from 50 000 tons of maize to 500 000 tons in a period of five years. The agricultural potential has already been determined scientifically, and all we require now is to walk the talk.
Community gardens are designed to produce more than ever before, with financial assistance from the departments of social development and health. With the conditional grants from those departments and with the technical expertise from the department of agriculture, community gardens are ready to fly. These community gardens are intended even to assist the HIV patients by making sure that we boost their immune system. With Vukuzenzele we have noticed that the role that women, as usual, have played is very important. In this case the fencing in the greater part of Transkei is done by women.
We are confident, as the Eastern Cape government, that change, as driven by the ANC, will never falter.
The other important area which I think I must touch on is the progress that has been made in relation to the social development. There is an interdepartmental approach involving social development, home affairs and health to ensure access to social grants. In this particular case, there are categories of poverty eradication programme that have been implemented. They include 18 food security programmes, 20 women’s co-operatives, 20 dual- purpose programmes and 10 HIV programmes that have been implemented to date. Included in that list is one urban renewal programme.
Now, with respect to the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, the following projects are now operational: In the O R Tambo region there are about 36 projects, and out of those 36, 29 are funded by that municipality. In Alfred Nzo, 12 anchor projects are now in operation. The specific projects can be accessed by the NCOP when required under each of these nodal points. In Chris Hani 10 projects are now in progress and in Ukhahlamba 5 projects are in progress.
As we speak, there is a project under social development, called the emergency food relief programme, which was launched yesterday and in which 8 800 families have managed to receive food parcels. In relation to the social relief of distress programme, in an attempt to help the poor families that are in need, normally the social development department used to be allocated R16 million, but this time the treasury has given that department about R98 million, which indicates that more people are going to benefit than usually was the case in previous years.
The last thing I would like to mention is that, despite all gloomy reports and other reports in relation to the Eastern Cape, it is important that I should mention in particular, in relation to social development, that it is amongst the top departments, if indeed there are any others, that have shifted from traditional welfare to social development in a practical way. Secondly, it must also be mentioned that the department has implemented the installation of technological infrastructure in all of our districts, which is a critical part of an effective management information system.
The third point is that there is a one-stop youth justice centre which is operational as we speak in the province, and the communities of the world are sourcing expertise from the learning site of our stepping-stone centre in Port Elizabeth.
Lastly, social development has been nominated for two Mpumelelo awards for the implementation of the bee-keeping project in Libode. I thank you. [Applause.]
Dr P J C NEL: Hon Deputy Chair and hon members, this debate is a timely initiative from the NCOP for which the New NP is truly grateful. Because the scale of poverty is so immense and the human suffering so intense in our country, we require the maximum joint effort and the greatest national consensus possible to tackle this giant problem. The time has come for all South Africans to take hands and to form new partnerships between the different communities and political parties, despite past political differences, and for all other role-players in the country to take on the challenge as a nation.
Only if we do that will we be able to give hope to the 37% of our people who are unemployed, to the approximately 67% of our children in the age group 1-15 living in a defined state of absolute poverty, according to the 1996 census. One can go on and on quoting shocking statistics, but poverty must never become just an issue of statistics. It is far more than that. It is about people, and we must put those people first. It is about compassion and the restoration of human dignity.
Poverty is generally seen, in all its manifestations, as the denial of opportunities and choices most basic to human development to lead a healthy, creative life and to enjoy a decent standard of living and dignity.
South Africa’s record in the fight against poverty is, in some instances, not really good. While the economy, our main weapon against poverty, has performed well relative to other economies in the region, unemployment is still very high and continues to rise. With an estimated quarter of a million new job-seekers entering the labour market every year, South Africa faces enormous challenges.
The New NP realises that job creation is not the function of the Government. Government, however, has to create a favourable climate to stimulate the private business sector to invest in projects that will create jobs. Business has a key role to play in the economic transformation of the country. We appreciate the fact that certain sections of the business community play a commendable role in many respects. A company like SA Breweries, for example, spends 1,4% of its pretax profits on partnerships with NGOs, state departments and communities. More than 50% of the money goes to education, training, health and welfare. This is commendable because education and training are the most important tools for empowering individuals to break free from the shackles of poverty.
There are many other examples of new public-private partnerships in South Africa. An excellent example is a partnership that was announced by the hon MEC for finance in the Free State in his budget speech on 5 March, namely that the government’s provincial bank, Absa, has agreed to partner with government to ensure commercial loans and facilitation to private sector operators participating in projects, in each instance equal to the contribution of the government up to a maximum of R50 million, without the bank expecting to profit from its involvement. This investment will, without any doubt, assist the Free State government in rolling out key investment projects.
We also appreciate the fact that many businesses donate to charities and cultural development. This can, however, never be a substitute for investing in the sustainable development of people and contributing to social infrastructure.
There is still much room for expanding corporate involvement and for a greater focus on targeted poverty alleviation projects, and all people - coloured, black, white and Indian businesspeople - have a contribution to make. We are now at a point in history where we together can devote ourselves to economic growth and development and the destruction of poverty, not only for some, but for all our people. We must create a country where opportunity is not the heritage of just a few, but the birthright and the reality of all. Ke a leboga. [I thank you.] [Applause.]
Moruti J O TSELAPEDI (Bokone Bophirima): Motlatsa Mmusakgotla wa dikgaolo tsotlhe tsa diporofense tsa Aforika Borwa, le maloko a Kgotlapeomolao a a leng teng fa, rona ba Kgotlapeomolao ya Bokone-Bophirima, mo ntlheng e ya go lwantsha lehuma le go kgarameletsa melelwane ya lona kwa morago, re ne ra fitlhela gore manno otlhe a puso go tswa mo lekokong le le busang le mathaithai a lona, a siame. Re ne ra fitlhela e le gore dikai-dikgolo tsa tsamaiso di siame, mme ga di na mathata. Le fa go le jalo, re ile re itewa ke lotswalo la gore okare masi mo kgomong e ya ditsamaiso tsa rona ga a fitlhelele bana go a nwa. Bothata ke eng?
Re fitlhetse e le gore fa madi a tswa, sekai mo Lefapheng la tsa Pholo, kwa dikliniking ditlhare ga di nne teng ka gonne di a utswiwa, mme batho ga ba di fitlhelele kgotsa ga ba di bone. Fa madi a tswa mo Lefapheng la Katlaatleloloago, bana ga ba fitlhelele dijo ka gonne kwa tlase batho ba leka go somarela madi ka go tima bana dijo.
Selo seo se dirile gore re lemoge fa go na le batho ba ba leng mo gare ga Puso, le batho ba ba tshwanetseng go tlhokomelwa ke Puso. Re ile ra ipotsa gore re ka dira eng, re le Kgotlapeomolao. Re ile ra fitlhelela gore tiro ya rona jaaka Kgotlapeomolao ke go tiisa le go tlhatlhoba tsela e Lefapha la Botaki le diragatsa dilo tse re di tshepisitseng batho. Re ile ra fitlhela gore dikomiti tsa rona mo Kgotlapeomolaong di tshwanetse go tswa, di ye kwa bathong go ya go lebelela gore dilo tse di diragalang koao ke tse batho ba di tshepisitsweng, le go utlwelela maikutlo a batho.
Go ile go tlhokega dilo di le tharo. Sa ntlha, go tshwanetse go tlhotlhomisiwa gore a fa go tsewa madi ke mafapha a a rileng mo go rona, mme ba re raya ba re ba ile go dira selo se se rileng, a go diragetse jalo kgotsa nnyaya. Sa bobedi, re ile ra fitlhela gore go botlhokwa go dirisa dilo tse gotweng ke di-public hearings go utlwa gore a ruri melao e re e dirileng jaaka maano a rona, e fitlhelela batho go ba thusa. Sa boraro, re ile ra fitlhela gore re dire dipalamente tsa bomme, ba[s]a, bagodi le batho ba ba sa itekanelang.
Mo maitlhomong a rona, re ile ra fitlhela gore di re tswela mosola ka gonne re kgona go utlwa menagano ya batho le go ka lekanyetsa gore a ruri-ruri re kgona go tsikinya lehuma le, le go busetsa kwa morago melelwane ya lona.
Ke rata go itsise Ntlo e gore le fa re sa fitlhelela kwa re ratileng teng, re kgotsofetse, ka gonne dikomiti tsa rona ke tsona tse di tsamaisang le go tlhokomela mananeo a rona. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[Rev J O TSELAPEDI (North West): Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP and members of this legislature present here, we as the North West province legislature, on this issue of pushing back the frontiers of poverty, found that everything in the ruling party and its strategies is fine. We found that the main signals of governance are fine and do not have any problems. However, we had a feeling that it seemed as if services did not reach their intended destination. What is the problem?
We found that when the money was distributed, for example, in the department of health at the clinics, medicines were not available because of theft, thus people could access them. When the money is distributed by the department of social development, children cannot access food, because people try to save money and thus deny the children food.
This has made us realise that there are people inside the government and those who should be looked after by the government. We have asked ourselves what we could do as a legislature. We found that our duty as a legislature is to introduce and to improve the manner in which our department of arts is fulfilling what we have promised the people.
We found that our committees in our legislature should go out to people to ensure that the things that are happening there are those that people have been promised, and to listen to their views.
There will be a need for three things. Firstly, it should be investigated whether, when departments take money from us and say that they are going to do a particular thing, that is happening or not. Secondly, we found that it is important to use what is called public hearings to find out whether in fact the laws that we make as our plans do reach people in order to help them. Thirdly, we found that we should form parliaments for women, the youth, the elderly and the physically challenged. In our intentions we found that they are to our benefit, because we are able to hear the people’s views and to estimate that we can really shake off this poverty, and push back its frontiers.
I would like to inform this House that even if we did not reach what we had hoped for, we are satisfied because our committees are the ones directing us and our programmes.]
We should, in the end, be able to say truly that we do attempt to exercise proper oversight and monitoring. I thank you. [Applause.]
Rre J O TLHAGALE: Motlotlegi Motlatsa Modulasetilo, ditokololo tse di tlotlegang tsa dipalamente tse di farologaneng tsa lefatshe la rona, batlotlegi ba bangwe ba ba fano le bana ba rona ba ba rategang, letsatsi la gompieno ke le legolo mo ditiragalong tsa porofense ya rona ya Bokone Bophirima. Ke la ntlha mo ditiragalong tsa yona Palamente e tswa kwa maphatshiphatsing a Motse Kapa, mme e tlisiwa kgaolong e e kgakala ya porofense ya Bokone Bophirima. Re leboga boeteledipele jwa Khansele ya Bosetshaba ya Diporofense, mme bogolosegolo re leboga Modulasetilo le Motlatsa Modulasetilo ka go tlisa Palamente kwano Taung.
Setlhogo sa rona sa puisano ke gore, ``Ke dikgato dife tse di ka tsewang ke Puso le ditheo the dingwe go leleka lehuma mo gare ga rona.’’ Ka mafoko a mangwe re ka re, re tshwanetse go dira eng go fedisa lehuma mo bathong ba rona?
Lehuma le setlhogo ka gonne le amoga motho seriti sa botho, ga le rekegele ope, e bile le gogela motho mo mekgweng e e sa rategeng. Morago ga puo ya maabane ya motlotlegi Motlatsa Modulasetilo le motlotlegi Mokhuduthamaga wa Temothuo wa Bokone Bophirima, ke lemoga gore ba buile dintlha tse dintsi tsa botlhokwa ka ga temothuo.
Balemirui ba Taung ba tshwanetse go lemoga gore ba lesego go nna mo kgaolong ya nosetso e e ka ba kgontshang go roba gabedi ka ngwaga fa ba dira ka natla. Ga jaana balemirui ba le bantsi ba Bokone Bophirima ba lebagane le tatlhegelo ya dijalo fa pula e sa ne mo bokhutlhong jwa beke eno. Seno se raya gore balemirui ba Taung ba eme ka dinao, ba dire ka natla, mme ba itse gore dingwaga tsa masego di a feta. Mebaraka ya selegae e tlhoka mae le nama ya kolobe, … ``bacon and egg’’ … mme re tshwanetse go lwantsha lehuma ka go simolola thuo ya dikolobe le dikoko go tlamela mmaraka wa selegae, gore malapa a rona a bone dijo tseo.
Mo kgaolong e ya Taung go na le letamo le legolo le le tshotseng metsi a mantsi. Gore le agilwe leng ga se sa botlhokwa. Gore le agilwe ke mang ga se sa botlhokwa. Sa botlhokwa ke gore a letamo leo le agilwe ka madi a moduelalekgetho kgotsa a Puso. Fa e le gore le agilwe ka madi a moduelalekgotho kgotsa a Puso jaaka go ntse, a setshaba se bone mosola ka botlalo wa metsi a letamo leo. A metsi a letamo leo a phepafadiwe ka fa go tshwanetseng ka teng, mme a gogelwe kwa metseng e e kwa botlhabatsatsi jwa Taung, e e jaaka Manthe, Molelema le metse e mengwe e e mabapi le kgaolo eo.
Fa dipeipi di ka epelwa ke batho ba thapilwe ke lefapha le le maleba, go ka tlhangwa ditiro tsa batho ba le bantsi mo pakeng e telele mme go ka kgonwa go leleka lehuma mo bathong ba rona.
Tekanyetsokabo ya matlotlo e e fetisitsweng gautshwane mo Bokone Bophirima ke e e itumedisang. Go supiwa dikokeletso tsa madi tse di itumedisang, tse di abetsweng merero e e farologaneng e e amanang le matshelo a batho ba rona. Fa matlotlo ao a ka dirisiwa ka botlalo mabapi le merero e a e abetsweng, lehuma le le mo magareng ga rona le ka lelekelwa kwa ntle. [Nako e fedile.] [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana speech follows.)
[Mr J O TLHAGALE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon members of our different legislatures, distinguished guests present here today and children, today is an important day in the history of our province, the North West. For the first time in our history, Parliament has left the glamour of Cape Town and is sitting so far away in the North West province. We thank the leadership of the NCOP, in particular the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, for bringing Parliament to Taung.
The topic under discussion is, ``What steps can be taken by the Government and other organs of state to eradicate poverty amongst us?’’ In other words, what can we do to eradicate poverty amongst our people?
Poverty is cruel because it takes away a person’s dignity. It doesn’t have mercy on anyone, and can lead one to doing things that one wouldn’t normally do. In their speeches yesterday, the hon Deputy President and agriculture MEC in the North West made many valid points about the importance of agriculture.
The farmers of Taung should realise just how fortunate they are to be staying in an area blessed with water, something which enables them to harvest twice a year if they work hard. At present, many farmers in the North West could lose their crops if it doesn’t rain by the end of this week. This means that the farmers from Taung should stand up, work hard and count their blessings because their luck might not last.
The local markets lack bacon and eggs, and we should engage in pig and chicken farming to service the local markets and at the same time fight poverty, so that our families can have something to eat.
In this area of Taung there is a huge dam with lots of water. It is not necessary to know when it was built. The question of who built it is not important. What is important is that it was built with taxpayers’ or Government’s money. If it was indeed built with taxpayers’ or Government’s money, as seems to be the case, then the community should enjoy the full benefits of that dam’s water. The dam’s water should accordingly be purified and piped to the areas east of Taung, areas such as Manthe, Molelema and other adjacent villages.
If we could use the people employed by the relevant department to lay the water pipes, more jobs would be created in the long term, and that could help in the eradication of poverty.
The North West’s budget, which was approved recently, is sound. Enough funds have been allocated to various projects that have some bearing on the lives of our people. If those funds could be used well, some of this poverty could be eradicated. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]
Mr A F MAHLALELA (Mpumalanga): Mr Deputy Chairperson, hon members, pushing back the frontiers of poverty will require a united action by all the masses of our people. All sectors of our society and structures, be they government, business, labour, civil society organisations or ourselves as lawmakers, should make a collective effort to fight poverty.
Government has, in the past nine years, taken various steps to fight against poverty and protect the poor. Various policies have been developed and are now in the process of being implemented. All of these policies focus on the provision of a better life for all.
One of the critical policy directions is in the Constitution itself, which introduced a transformative Bill of Rights which is based on human dignity, equality and freedom. This is absolutely central if we are to shift the ground and free ourselves from the legacy of apartheid colonialism. Our Bill of Rights is unique in the manner in which it seeks to bring about the transformation of our society, not only in terms of civil and political entitlements, but also in terms of social and economic entitlement through the entrenchment of social and economic rights.
It is our duty and responsibility as public representatives to make sure that these social and economic rights are used to the benefit of the poor in terms of the provision of land, houses, water, medical care, etc. The land reform programme, which moves from the premise of being rights-based, is critical in pushing back the frontiers of poverty. This includes the Restitution of Land Rights Act, the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act, the Interim Protection of Informal Land Rights Act and the Extension of Security of Tenure Act, as well as the Communal Land Bill that the President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, referred to in his state of the nation address when he opened Parliament, saying that we need to finalise this Bill this year. We need to monitor, as members, the impact of all these laws in improving the quality of the lives of our people.
I am, however, convinced that the passage of the Communal Land Bill will have a positive impact on the lives of the people living in rural areas, especially women. For the first time, once this Bill becomes law, women in the rural areas will have a right to own land and be in a position to optimally use that land to eradicate poverty and create wealth for themselves. We need, however, to call upon white commercial farmers as well, to be encouraged to make land available voluntarily so that we are in a position to expand the access to land for agricultural purposes to the majority of the people of our country.
The Reconstruction and Development Programme is, at its core, a programme for the eradication of poverty. It remains the critical tool that should be used to realise the objectives of a better life for all. One of the programmes of the RDP is the public works programme. In his state of the nation address when he opened Parliament, the President indicated Government’s intention to launch an expanded public works programme as a strategic tool that would be used aggressively to fight against poverty and underdevelopment, creating jobs, building infrastructure and developing human resources through training.
The objective of this expanded public works programme is to create employment for the poor through integrated and co-ordinated labour- intensive programmes. The huge socioeconomic challenges confronted by our country, such as the infrastructure backlog and job shortages, can be handled more effectively and efficiently through a large-scale, centrally co-ordinated, but locally planned and implemented, public works programme. But that will require civil servants who are community development workers, so that they are in a position to be in touch with and work for the interests of the masses of our people.
The Government has managed over the past years to cut down taxes for low- income earners and will continue to do so. We should also therefore encourage our people to save so that they are in a position to accumulate wealth.
The other most important critical elements are the implementation of a comprehensive social security system and the introduction of the free basic services to poor households, as well as the R1,2 billion that the Government has just announced for food security over a period of three years. What we need to do is clearly indicated in the Budget Review of 2002, which says, among other things:
Sustainable growth and development are necessary to achieve a progressive reduction in poverty and a bridging of the gap between rich and poor. Growth depends crucially on the maintenance of a sound macroeconomic and fiscal stance, and improved investment in human development and physical infrastructure.
Growth and poverty reduction are promoted through enhanced partnerships, with civil society and the private sector, and with continental and international partners within the framework set out in the New Partnership for Africa’s Development.
Over the next three years, fiscal policy will support these objectives by increasing the resources available for programmes that contribute towards poverty alleviation, skills development, infrastructure expansion and job creation, while strengthening Government’s capacity to lead the development process.
Civil society at all levels will also be mobilised for developmental purposes. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Deputy Chair, I stand here on behalf of one sector … [Laughter.] A second of my time has been taken, Deputy Chair, so take note of that. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): You are protected. Continue, hon member.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: It is the sector that bears the brunt of poverty and the burden of disease the most and that suffers when there is armed conflict and war - that is, us.
When you talk about poverty, with us - that is, women - it is the way we look and the way we live. As you pass rivers you see us carrying buckets of water. When you look at the forest you see us coming out of there, carrying wood. That is how we live as women.
The poverty I am talking about is two-dimensional, that is income poverty and human poverty. The reality is that millions of us cannot afford the minimum daily calorie intake which is needed as a basic issue. Life expectancy is falling - the age. Maternal and mortality rates are rising.
Bomme ba shwa, ha ba ilo pepa … [Women die in childbirth.]
… and giving birth is a natural thing. HIV-Aids impacts on the poor, particularly us, women. That is how we live. I think as the first measure, poverty reduction strategies must be permanent in our agendas as Government, the private sector or any other sector, as the ANC Government has done. Our President has established strategic planning, eg the nodal points, such as the area of Thabo Mofutsanyane in my province, which is the poorest, and the Kgalakgadi area in this province, where integrated developmental planning is taking place.
Anyhow, these measures cannot be implemented and really succeed if we do not have a democratic environment, that is a consolidated and well- maintained democracy where there is peace, security and stability. Our Government and leaders in the ANC have noted that to ensure that there is peace within us, there has to be peace around us, because if there is no peace on our borders we are not sure that there will be peace and security as such. Development will also be affected.
When you speak of the development integration approach, I think you need to take into account gender and disability, two major issues to be mainstreamed. I think our Government has really taken note of what we are saying, that gender and disability cannot be separated from the mainstream. They have got to be in the mainstream in every sector of society and in every programme.
Furthermore, we have always said that we need to have a paradigm shift when we think of development and move away from terminologies such as welfare, but rather talk of social development, as this Government is doing.
During our first Parliament we signed international treaties and conventions, for example the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women as well as the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. These were measures to ensure that we are going to do away with poverty, particularly in so far as women are concerned.
Soon after Beijing the women of this country gave us a mandate that out of the 12 critical areas we had identified in Beijing, we needed to deal with six to ensure that we were freeing women from poverty. One of these areas was the economic empowerment of women.
The Department of Trade and Industry has a women’s forum, The SA Women Entrepreneurs’ Network, or Sawen, where women discuss poverty, unemployment, representation in industries and corporates, and how to access international markets. Public Works is spending an amount of R30 million on a project which was launched on 9 August 2001.
The Department of Minerals and Energy now has women in mining forums. With regard to agriculture, all provinces are moving away from the assumption that the only way for women to farm is subsistence farming - the MEC told us yesterday. Thus we are ensuring food security.
I now come to decision-making and politics. Quite a number of political organisations are trying, but ours, the ANC, has actually taken the lead by stating that there has to be a minimum quota of 30% in the representation of women in decision-making and politics. Anyway, as women we are saying it should be 50% by next year. [Applause.] It has to be 50%, in accordance with the demographics of this country.
I think all of us have accepted the affirmative action policy. Women are networking - professionals, politicians and women parliamentarians - in order to get experience outside the region as well as internationally.
Concerning institutional mechanisms for women in Parliament, we set up national machinery, such as the Commission on Gender Equality, which has offices in four provinces, and the Office on the Status of Women, which also has offices in eight provinces. We committed ourselves as Parliament to having a committee which will monitor all these critical areas. As this committee, on which I serve, we are trying our best.
A women’s budget initiative has been started, and I would like to advise the hon members in this House to read the first budget initiative report of
- We need to look into this.
Then there is the issue of the protection of women’s human rights. Mrs Pandor yesterday elaborated on how this Government has developed gender- sensitive legal reforms and mentioned, as examples, the customary law, access to land, etc.
I now come to the recognition of women’s reproductive rights. We have legislation, the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act, which ensures that as a woman you’ll have a child if you want it. If don’t want to, you won’t.
We have, as this Government, signed protocols on married women who are foreigners and are here in South Africa to ensure that their rights are also entrenched, and we have made it a point that women’s rights are part of the agenda of human rights and not separate.
I now come to capacity-building and training. We have made partnerships with a lot of NGOs that specialise in teaching our women gender analysis skills, advocacy and gender-budgeting.
With regard to women and health, we have set guiding policies on HIV-Aids. We have formed partnerships with women’s health projects and networked with other organisations. And we have made it a point that women do access health services. As early as 1995 we started clinic-building programmes and small district hospitals in order for women to go to clinics. We also made it a point that children under the age of five and pregnant women had free health services to ensure that women’s health was high on our agenda.
Anyhow, the success of all this will depend on a changed international economic order. We alone as South Africa, fighting for the empowerment of women with regard to issues of poverty, cannot succeed. But our Government is trying its level best and we participate in all international organisations. In every delegation - if you notice - whether to the World Trade Organisation or to the IMF, the ANC-led Government insists that if it is possible, there must be women participants in it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired. … [Applause.]
That was a very strong message for men. I’m sure you heard it. Fifty plus fifty makes 100%. [Laughter.] I would like to advise men to pull up their socks. It is a very big challenge.
Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Mphathisihlalo ohloniphekileyo, Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo womKhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe Nkk G N Pandor kanye nabo bonke obambisene nabo, amalungu ePhalamende akhona phakathi kwethu, amakhansela endawo akhona phakathi kwethu, amakhosi, izikhulu zeminyango ehlukahlukene, umphakathi wonke waseTaung, amadodana namadodakazi e-Afrika ngiyanibingelela nonke egameni leNkatha Freedom Party.
Angiphinde futhi ngibonge iNdlu yoMkhandlu kaZwelonke esihlalo sayo kunguNkk G N Pandor kanye nabo bonke abambisene nabo kulo mbhidlango wokuletha iPhalamende kubantu. Kuyisinyathelo esikhulu kabi lesi nesibalulekile ekuxosheni indlala.
Ukuhambela izifundazwe ngale ndlela kusinika umdlandla namandla okwazi esikhuluma ngakho. Imithetho izoshaywa sesixhumene nabantu emiphakathini yabo, sesizwile abakushoyo okuyizinkinga zabo. Lokhu kuzosiza abashaya umthetho ukuthi bashaye umthetho ozoqondana nqgo nesimo nesidingo somphakathi.
Imali izokhishwa ePhalamende elikhulu ilingane ncamashi nesimo leso. Sekulula kabi lokho ukuthi iPhalamende likulandele, libone ukuthi kuyenzeka yini njengoba umthetho ushayiwe ngezidingo, imali ikhishiwe yini, ikhona yini inqubekela phambili, imali igcineke kahle yini, ayehlanga ngemilenze nokunye nokunye. Lokhu sikubiza phecelezi, nge ``oversight role’’.
Kafushane nje mphakathi ohloniphekileyo, sekukhulunywe kakhulu ngalesi sihloko. Umphakathi ebesinawo uzwile ukuthi kukhona izinkinga ezikhinyabezayo ekuthuthukiseni umphakathi, kodwa engibona ukuthi zingancipha ngalezi zinyathelo engizozibala ukufaka kulokhu asebekufakile ozakwethu.
Okokuqala, ngukubambisana komphakathi ekwenzeni izinto okusho ukuthi ``united we stand but divided we fall’’ [sonqoba simunye]. Kuwumsebenzi walowo nalowo muntu, walowo nalowo mphakathi ukwenza izinto ngokubambisana, nibeke eceleni ubuqembu ngoba buvamise ukona kwinqubekela phambili nentuthuko yomphakathi.
Bambisanani, sebenzani ndawonye nenzele intuthuko, nesizwe sonke siyothuthuka ngani, sidumise uMdali ndawonye njengoba senza emasontweni. Emasontweni siyaya khona, ngiyiLuthela mina, omunye uyiSheshi, omunye yiRoma kanjalo kanjalo, asixabani. Pho manje sixatshaniswa yini lapha kwezobuqembu? UHulumeni wethu uyabasiza abantu abasungula imisebenzi. Umsebenzi eniwuqalayo nindawonye awube yisidingo endaweni. Mawukwazi futhi ukuvula amathuba emisebenzi, ukwazi ukukhula usimame wondle, ungashabalali.
Okwesibili, ukugunyaza omama ukuvula imisebenzi ezokulwa nendlala. Omama yibona abondla imindeni ikakhulu. Obaba bayondla, hhayi ukuthi abondli, kodwa omama imvamisa yibona nogogo abondlayo.
Ngakho-ke siyadinga ukulekelelana nokubambisana. Ukubambisana kwethu makuqale ekhaya la sihlezi khona emndenini. Ukusebenzisana kumele kuqale ekhaya.
Siyazazi izinto ezikhubaza ukuthola umxhaso kaHulumeni. Imvamisa kuba yinkinga nje encane. Kuye kuthi sebehlangene abantu benalo ikhono, uthole ukuthi abakwazi ukwenza uhlelo lwebhizinisi, ikakhulu emakhaya, bese bekhinyabezeka njalo. Siyacela kuHulumeni wethu sengathi kungaba khona abantu ababekwayo, abazobonisa kahle abantu babalekelele ukuthi bathole indlela elula yokuxhaswa uma kubonakala ukuthi umsebenzi abawenzayo uyabonakala futhi bahlangene, kanye nokunye.
Kukhona nama-social grants ukusiza ogogo nomama abondla abantwana. Konke lokho abakwazi omama. Kukhona abangazi nanokuthi yini i-social grant, baswele umuntu ozobatshela. [Ihlombe] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Hon Chairperson, hon Chairperson of the NCOP Mrs G N M Pandor and everybody in your team, members of Parliament who are here with us, local councils who are also here with us, traditional leaders, dignitaries from different departments, the whole community of Taung, sons and daughters of Africa, I greet you all in the name of the Inkatha Freedom Party.
Again, let me thank the National Council of Provinces, whose Chairperson is Mrs G N M Pandor, and everybody she is working with in this business of bringing Parliament closer to the people. This is a major step which is very important in boosting the food-relief programme.
To visit provinces in this way gives us the energy and drive of knowing what it is that we are talking about. Laws will be made when we have communicated with the people in their respective communities, when we have also heard what they say their problems are. This will help those who make laws so that they make laws that will be compatible with the situation and the needs of the community.
The money will come from the national Parliament and the amounts will match each particular situation. It is now very easy for Parliament to follow up on that, to see whether things are happening in accordance with the law that has been made relating to the needs, that the money has been given out, whether there is any progress, whether the money is well-looked after and not being misused, etc. This is what we call an oversight role. In short, a lot has been said on this topic. The community we belonged to before understood that there are problems that disrupt community development, which I believe could be minimised with these steps that I will be mentioning, just to add to what my colleagues have already said.
First of all, it is about working closely with the community when we do things. United we stand, but divided we fall. It is the responsibility of each individual and each community to do things collectively and put aside party politics, because it often spoils community progress and development.
Work together collectively for the sake of development, and the whole country will develop because of you, and we will all glorify God together as we do in church. We all go to church. I am Lutheran, one is Church of God, the other is Roman Catholic, etc, and we are not in conflict. So why are we in confrontation with one another when it comes to party politics? The Government assists people who start businesses. The business that you start together must be a necessity in the community - it must be able to create job opportunities, to grow and be sustainable.
Secondly, it is to empower women to create jobs that will combat starvation. Women are the ones who nurture families. Men also do - it is not that they don’t, but more often it is the women and elderly women. Therefore we need to help one another and work together. Working together must begin at home where we live as families.
We know the things that retard Government’s assistance. Usually it is a just small hiccup. When people come together and they have a particular skill, then you find that they have no idea how to make a business plan - in the rural areas in particular - and consequently their progress is retarded.
We would like to ask our Government if it cannot nominate people who will guide people to be able to get help so that they have an easy way to access Government’s assistance if the work that they are doing is substantial and if they work co-operatively, etc. There are also social grants to assist grandmothers and mothers to feed their children. Mothers do not know all that. There are some who do not even know what a social grant is; they have no one to tell them. [Applause.]]
Mr R M NYAKANE: Chair, the Taung farming community have ventilated their concerns and frustrations on matters pertaining to, among other things, farming. They depicted problems such as a lack of know-how, resources and capacity. The questions did not merely stem from these premises, but rather were orchestrated by an abject poverty situation these emerging farmers found themselves in. The MEC and others have diligently addressed their problems.
However, the Deputy Chairperson stood up yesterday here to officially recognise the presence of white farmers who were seated right in the corner there. We were indeed blessed to have in our midst white farmers who are known to have experience in farming activities. They are known to have extensively interacted with financial institutions, creditors, marketing institutions, mechanisation, even disaster management, yet they chose to be silent throughout the discussions yesterday. Behaviour of this nature leaves one with doubt as to whether one has got an honest partner who is equally committed to the cause of driving back the frontiers of poverty.
I picked up from one young lady here yesterday that if you empower women, you empower the nation. If you empower men, you empower individuals. This argument implies, therefore, that if you give wealth to women, you give wealth to the nation and as such push back the frontiers of poverty. [Applause.]
Hon MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Mr R M NYAKANE: How can one access and harness a mould that would create wealth? Work, or rather employment, is, among other things, an effective tool for the creation of wealth. Wealth can be created by people who work, because employment leads to wealth creation. Wealth in itself leads to the solution of social problems that are at present besetting our society, such as poverty, HIV/Aids, you name it. I have already intimated that employment leads to the creation of wealth.
The question of land features equally important in terms of wealth creation. The Bapedi adage goes: Lehumo le tswa tshemong. [All wealth comes from the land.] The accessibility of land becomes, therefore, a critical issue. By the by, are we adequately equipped to drive back the frontiers of poverty, given the situation in which 80% of the historically disadvantaged persons can only access less than 20% of the land in this country, while only 20% of the historically advantaged persons, in this case white farmers, access 80% of the fertile land? Opposed to this, blacks are sandwiched in the townships where each individual household can only access a 150 m2 piece of land.
We promulgate laws in Parliament with good intentions and good vision. The problems arise at the implementation stage. You’ll recall what ensued subsequent to the passage of the land and agricultural amending legislation and the labour legislation. The intention of those laws were to protect the interests and rights of the farmworkers and domestic workers. What happened is that most of the farmers started to retrench workers.
I remember in Mpumalanga we had a case in which an old lady had worked in a white man’s kitchen for 30 years and when this particular law came into effect that woman started “stinking” in the kitchen, and the baas said: “Nee, sy stink. Sy moet nou sommer bedank, haar man vat en wegloop.” [No, she stinks. She should resign, take her husband and go.] [Interjections.] This was a case which was argued in the media. Some of us could perhaps have come across this particular case.
I’m from the Lowveld where we have one of the giant potato producers in the person of Bertie van Zyl …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Hon Nyakane, your time has expired, Sir.
Mr R M NYAKANE: … who has retrenched almost half of the 2 000 people who worked for him, because of these laws that were passed. Thank you. Sorry! [Applause.]
Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson and hon members, the DP will have to go back to school to learn the politics of Africa. It is therefore imperative for me to hint at a few points that were made by the hon member Sono. As a legislator, Sono of the DP ought to know the law. The marketing at stadiums was managed by the United Cricket Board, which controls the marketing at its stadiums. We are rather surprised that she as a proponent of the free market system and free enterprise, does not know that the United Cricket Board is not Government.
My second response is that it is untrue that more than 60% of our Budget is used to pay civil servants. There are huge amounts spent on infrastructure such as roads, water and forestry. I suggest that she look at the Budget more closely. Maybe she should be given a magnifying glass so that she understands it better. What has actually happened is that the expenditure on civil servants has been reduced by more than 15% - in many instances, as a result of rightsizing.
Mmusakgotla, kana moja-morago ke kgosi. [Perseverance breeds success.]
The 21 century is the African century. It is dedicated to Africa. All the nations of the world are aware of this fact. The prophecy and the authenticity of this thought emanates within South Africa. Therefore our leaders and I want members to listen very attentively, as it is extremely important. [Interjections.]
Bagaetsho, re tshegofaditswe. Aforika e tshegofaditswe. Re motlotlo go bidiwa Ma-Aforika, segolo-bogolo go bidiwa Ma-Aforika Borwa. [Countrymen, we have been blessed. Africa has been blessed. We are proud to be called Africans, more especially South Africans.]
We are most privileged. We men and women of stature, respectable, with dignity, men with foresight and a vision of the future.
If we want to push back the frontiers of poverty, we must understand the politics of South Africa, because that is God’s calling. God has called men and women in this part of the continent and this part of the world to become prophets of the future. The changing of the globe will start from South Africa.
Magora go ša a a mabapi. Ke se se bolelwang ke Mopresidente wa naga ya rona. Ba DP fa ba ntse ba fofafofa, ba iphatlha ka diphuka, magora go ša mabapi. [Legofi.]
Bagaetsho, re na le batho ba ba tlhalefileng. Mongwe wa bona ke Mme Naledi Pandor, yo o tsamaisang Ntlo e. Re na le motho yo o nang le ponelopele. Ponelopele ga o ithutele yona kwa unibesithing. Ke neo go tswa go Modimo. Ke gore o tsalwa o le moeteledipele yo a nonofileng, yo o kgonang go bona le go etela morafe pele. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[People should help one another. This is what our country’s President has been saying. While members of the DP go around stumbling over themselves, it remains a fact that people should help one another. [Applause.]
Countrymen, we have among us very wise people. One of them is Ms Naledi Pandor, the Chairperson of this House. In her we have somebody with vision. You cannot study vision at university. It is a gift from God. You have to be born a true leader to be able to lead a nation.]
I have a dream and you have a dream, that one day the frontiers of poverty, one day the scourge of HIV/Aids, will be pushed to the periphery. One day we shall be happy in this country, in this continent and in the entire world.
Baetsho, go ntse jalo, ke ka lebaka leo re lemogang gore fa re kgarametsa maparego ano a bohuma mo Aforika Borwa fela, go raya gore re difofu. Mopresidente wa lefatshe la rona a re re tshwanetse go kgarametsa maparego a bohuma mo Aforika yotlhe. Bana ba motho ba kgaogana tlhogwana ya tsie. Aforika yotlhe e tshwanetse gore e momagane, e tshwaragane mme e kgarametse selo se.
Ke ka lobaka leo go leng botlhokwa gore baagi ba Taung ba kgone go bala mo gare ga methalo, le go lemoga gore re neilwe neo e re sa tshwanelang go tshameka ka yona. Re tshwanetse go tshegetsa neo eo ka boammaruri, gonne bohuma bo tsene mo tsietsing; bohuma bo tlhasetswe ke ba ba tlhaloganyang. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[Countrymen, it is for that reason that we become blind when we push back the frontiers of poverty in South Africa. The President of our country says that we should push back the frontiers of poverty in the whole of Africa. People should share the little that they have. The whole of Africa should come together united to push this process forward.
It is for that reason that it is very important for the people of Taung to read between the lines and realise that we have been blessed with a gift, and they should use it wisely. We should really put that gift to good use to ensure that poverty is in trouble; poverty is attacked by those who understand it.]
One day we shall be competing with other nations of the world, economically and otherwise. Tony Blair, George Bush - what’s wrong with you? [Applause.] Where is Nelson Mandela, the prophet, a man who emerged from Robben Island, who was suppressed, but a man with foresight and vision for the entire world? He calls them to order because when we say we want to push the frontiers of poverty away, Bush and Blair say, “We push the frontiers of poverty back into Africa, into the nations of the world.” That’s why they are opting for war; blind people with no vision.
Fela Motswana a re, Nonyane e e mephophoto-megolo e iphatlha ka diphuka
tsa yona.'' Tony Blair le George Bush ba tlile go iphatlha ka diphuka tsa
bona. [The Motswana of yesteryear said thata person who plays with fire
ends up burning himself’’. [Applause.] Tony Blair and George Bush are going
to burn themselves.]
This is the African century, the 21st century. The power of the world emerges from South Africa. We have men and women of dignity, men and women of stature. We must be inspired to see, to understand and to hear the wind that is blowing …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon Moatshe.
Rev P MOATSHE: … that we shall overcome one day. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I am sure that all that is left now is to see the Reverend on the pulpit. [Laughter.]
Debate concluded.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL STRUCTURES SECOND AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Local
Government and Administration thereon)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I wish to inform you that copies of the report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration have been distributed to all members in the House, and therefore we will go according to the list.
Seeing that we do not have with us the hon Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, we will then call upon the hon Mr Mkhaliphi, who is the chairperson of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration.
Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon special and permanent delegates, ladies and gentlemen, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Second Amendment Bill in front of us this morning is one of a series of amendments that seek to clarify certain issues in our evolving system of local governance by clarifying extensively the steps and actions that need to be taken in the event of a change of a system in a municipality. It also stipulates specific timeframes within which these actions and steps should be taken and by whom.
We are aware that the determination of a system to be adopted by a municipality should take place through the office of the MEC for local government in a province by way of a section 12 notice. Although the amendment of a section 12 notice was provided for in section 16 of the principal Act, it did not clarify when this change could occur, thus resulting in a litany of interpretations. This uncertainty is clarified in clause 4 of this Bill. Of course, other members of this committee will elaborate in this regard.
Generally when considering any amendment to a piece of legislation, it is crucial for us as lawmakers to reflect on whether such an amendment is still within the letter and spirit of the original legislation. We applied our minds when we considered this Bill at the committee level. We are therefore satisfied that the passing of this Bill is in line with the transformation measures embedded in our system of local government. Our major safeguard against abuse of the system remains sections 12 and 16 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, in that any change of the type of a municipality cannot take place without consultation and the consent of the MEC for local government of a province.
On behalf of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, I wish to express our appreciation for the broad participation by our provinces in the deliberations on this Bill during the provincial week. Of course, our thanks should also go to the National Council of Provinces as an institution for allowing this Bill to be part of the package that was deliberated on in the provinces. Indeed, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, we are not standing before you on wobbly legs. We are confident that the Bill has gone through thorough scrutiny in the provinces, although it is a section 75 Bill. I would therefore be surprised if there were any member of the committee who expressed some reservation in passing this piece of legislation. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mnr J HORNE: Agbare Voorsitter, lede van die wetgewer alhier, asook lede van die Huis, ek wil graag van hierdie geleentheid gebruik maak om die Voorsitter, mev Pandor, asook die Adjunkvoorsitter, te bedank. Ek dink ons sal in die jare wat kom die dividende in van dit wat vandag hier gebeur. Ons sal vir u gee:
Die leiers op die hoogste trap het nie gestyg met ‘n enkele stap. Wyl ander slaap en droom, het hul gewerk tot oggendstond.
Die wetsontwerp voor ons gaan hoofsaaklik oor die wysiging van die Wet op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Strukture, Wet No 117 van 1998, ten einde die uitwerking van ‘n verandering in die soort munisipaliteit op die ampstermyne van lede van die uitvoerende komitees en uitvoerende burgemeesters te reël en om voorsiening te maak vir aangeleenthede wat daarmee in verband staan.
Oorspronklik is waarskynlik voorsien dat metropolitaanse en ander groot munisipaliteite die uitvoerende burgermeesterstelsel sou kies, die middelslagmunisipaliteite die uitvoerende komiteestelsel en die heel kleintjies die stelsel van ‘n uitvoerende volle raad, en dat in die hoogs uitsonderlike geval van ‘n behoefte aan ‘n verandering van die soort van munisipaliteit, dit gedoen sal word sonder hindernis, volgens die prosedure voorgeskryf in artikel 16 van die Wet op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Strukture, Wet No 117 van 1998.
Die praktyk het egter getoon dat ander faktore as bloot die grootte van ‘n munisipaliteit ‘n rol speel in die keuse van ‘n soort munisipaliteit en dat daar dus ‘n groot behoefte aan verandering is, maar dat bepaalde wetlike hindernisse bestaan om sekere soorte te verander.
Aangesien hierdie wetsontwerp nou al hierdie onvoorsiene hindernisse vir veranderings wegneem, en tegelykertyd onduidelikhede in hierdie verband opklaar, sal die Nuwe NP graag wil sien dat elke munisipale raad homself afvra of hulle, in die lig van meer as twee jaar se ondervinding, die regte soort munisipaliteit het en, indien nie, hulle hul LUR sal nader. Waar daar besluit word op die tipe munisipaliteit van uitvoerende burgemeester, voel die Nuwe NP baie sterk daaroor dat die uitvoerende burgemeesterkomitee se vergaderings nie agter geslote deure moet plaasvind nie. Dit is verkeerd om uitvoerende burgemeesterkomiteevergaderings met die nasionale Kabinet te vergelyk en dit te gebruik as verskoning om agter geslote deure te ontmoet. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr J HORNE: Hon Chairperson, members of the legislature here, as well as the members of the House, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Chairperson, Mrs Pandor, as well as the Deputy Chairperson. I think we will reap the dividends of that which is happening here today in the years to come. We will give you the following: The leaders on the highest rung did not rise with one step. While others slept and dreamt, they worked till early morning. The Bill before us deals primarily with the amendment of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, Act No 117 of 1998, in order to regulate the effect of a change in the type of municipality on the terms of office of members of the executive committees and executive mayors and to make provision for matters associated herewith.
Originally, it was probably envisaged that metropolitan and other large municipalities would choose the executive mayor system, that medium-sized municipalities would choose the executive committee system and that the very small ones would choose the full council executive system, and that in the highly exceptional cases of a need for a change in the type of municipality, this would be done without impediment, in terms of the procedure prescribed in section 16 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, Act No 117 of 1998.
However, practice showed that factors other than merely the size of a municipality play a role in the choice of a type of municipality and that there is therefore a great need for change, but that certain statutory obstacles exist to change certain types.
Seeing that this Bill now removes all these unforeseen obstacles and at the same time clears up issues that are unclear in this regard, the New NP would like to see each municipal council asking itself whether they, in the light of more than two years’ experience, have the right type of municipality and, if not, approaching their MEC. Where an executive mayor type of municipality is decided upon, the New NP feels very strongly that the executive mayoral committee meetings should not take place behind closed doors. It is wrong to compare executive mayoral committee meetings with the national Cabinet and to use this as an excuse to meet behind closed doors.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Sorry, hon member. The Table has indicated that there is a problem with the interpreters. If that could be attended to, please.
Rev M CHABAKU: Hon Chairperson, I think it would also be helpful if the hon member actually talked slowly so that the interpreters are able to comprehend what he is saying and then translate. If he reads fast, it is not easy to translate fast.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Continue, hon member, please.
Mnr J HORNE: Die praktyk het egter getoon dat ander faktore as bloot die grootte van die munisipaliteit ‘n rol speel by die keuse van soorte en dat daar dus ‘n groter behoefte aan verandering is. Waar daar besluit word op die tipe munisipaliteit van uitvoerende burgemeester, voel die Nuwe NP baie sterk daaroor dat uitvoerende burgemeesterkomiteevergaderings nie agter geslote deure moet plaasvind nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr J HORNE: However, practice has shown that factors other than merely the size of the municipality play a role in the choice of type and that there is thus a greater need for change. Where the executive mayor type of municipality is decided upon, the New NP feels very strongly that executive mayoral committee meetings should not take place behind closed doors.]
In the Western Cape, where we govern with the ANC, we have secured this commitment. It is unfortunate that the practice has developed that executive mayoral committees meet behind closed doors.
Ten slotte, soos reeds vroeër genoem, gaan die wetsontwerp hoofsaaklik daaroor om die ampstermyne en tydskale van lede van die uitvoerende komitees en van uitvoerende burgemeesters te reël. Aangesien daar nou meer duidelikheid is oor die wet voor ons, ondersteun die Nuwe NP die wet. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[In conclusion, as already mentioned earlier, the Bill primarily deals with regulating the terms of office and time scales of members of the executive committee and executive mayors. As there is now more clarity regarding the Act before us, the New NP supports the legislation. [Applause.]]
Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Deputy Chair, hon members, the Bill deals with the changing of the type of executive government of a municipality - for example, the change from a multiparty collective executive to a single- party mayoral executive.
The original Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 1998 allowed for the change of one type of executive to another but did not provide for the consequences of this. The current Bill deals with this and with related issues.
I will deal with a summary of the contents of the Bill. Firstly, section 45 of the principal Act states that a municipal council must elect the members of its executive committee from its own members at a meeting that must be held within 14 days after the date with effect from which the type of the municipality has changed.
Secondly, section 46 is amended to clarify the terms of office of members. The members of an executive committee are elected for a term ending when the type of municipality has changed.
Thirdly, section 48(5) states that no person holding office as mayor or deputy mayor may serve more than two terms respectively.
Fourthly, section 55 is amended to provide for the timeframe during which a municipal council must elect a mayor and, if the MEC for local government agrees, also a deputy mayor from among its members. In this regard the amendment states that it must happen within 14 days after the date with effect from which the type of municipality has been changed.
Fifthly, section 57 is amended to clarify the term of office of executive mayors. In this regard the amendment makes it clear that an executive mayor and the deputy mayor may not serve as executive mayor and deputy mayor for more than two consecutive terms. When a person is elected to fill a vacancy in the office of executive mayor or executive deputy mayor, the period between that election and the next election of an executive mayor or executive deputy mayor is regarded as a term.
In conclusion, one of the enduring problems of transition and transformation was the inability of newly elected leaders to assert democratic control over local administrations. This Bill will go a long way towards ensuring greater accountability and that councillors will act in the interests of the electorate. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I call the hon member Kgoshi Mokoena. [Interjections.] I’m sorry, the hon Lever, please. I’m sorry. Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, I won’t take that as a Freudian slip on the implementation of our democracy. [Laughter.]
Let me turn to my speech. The proposed amendment clarifies the term of office for executive committees, executive mayors and deputy executive mayors when there is a change of system. The present amendment serves to clarify the results of changes which have now arisen as a result of the crossing-of-the-floor legislation, but these changes have always been possible with the concurrence of the MEC.
The DP has preferred the more inclusive model of the executive committee system, but the changes that are likely to take place now will be mainly with regard to the executive mayoral system. The executive mayoral system need not, but does, in practice, result in the exclusion of opposition parties from the mayoral committee. The DA has tried unsuccessfully to challenge this exclusion in court.
While the whole Local Government: Municipal Systems Act is premised on the participation of the whole community in the planning process of municipal councils, in the overwhelming number of municipal councils the executive mayoral committee operates on the exclusion of elected councillors from the opposition. In the Johannesburg Unicity, opposition parties are even excluded from observer status on the mayoral executive committee.
The DA only got to know about key performance indicators for the top two levels of management from the media. This is clearly not ideal in an infant democracy. Further, this exclusion …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Sorry, hon Lever. Hon Lucas, are you rising on a point of order?
Mr G A LUCAS: Yes, Chair, I am. In this House there is no DA. We know about the DP. So the member should not make reference to the DA, which does not exist in this House. That is wrong, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: OK. Continue, hon member.
Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, I’m discussing local government, and at the local government level the party is the DA. So I’m not referring to the party in this House. I’m referring to the party at local government level. Further, this exclusion does not in any way contribute to transparency and accountability in local government. It is, in fact, an impediment to transparency and accountability. The parlous state of municipal finances and a regrettable lack of capacity at municipal level would indicate that all available talent should be employed to ensure proper delivery.
However, we can support this amendment on the grounds that it makes technical corrections to an existing system, but we would urge further debate on the need for local government to be as responsive as is feasible to the needs of the people. This, by definition, requires the participation of all elected councillors in the business of their municipality. Chairperson, I thank you. [Applause.]
Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Mohlomphegi Modulasetulo, motlatši wa gago wa matšato le sefepi sa gago sa go tšeya gabotse, ke a leboga. Dilo ka moka di boletšwe; sa ka e no ba go hlathollela lešaba la Mokwena le Thulare gore Molaokakanywa wo, ka mantšu ao a nolofaditšwego, o ra gore go na le mehuta ye mebedi ya bommasepala. Go na le mmasepala wa komiti ya maemo a bokhuduthamaga le mmasepala wa ratoropo goba ramotse wa maemo a bokhuduthamaga. Molaokakanywa wo o dumela gore ge bammasepala ba nyaka go fetola maemo go tloga go wa komiti ya bokhuduthamaga go ya go wa ratoropo wa bokhuduthamaga goba go tloga go wa ratoropo wa bokhuduthamaga go ya go wa komiti ya bokhuduthamaga, ba ka dira bjalo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, Deputy and your reliable Chief Whip, all has been said, except for me to explain to the Mokwenas and the Thulares what this Bill is about in simple terms. What it means is the following: There are two types of municipalities, the ones with an executive mayor and the others with an executive committee. This Bill makes it possible for any municipality to choose if they want to have an executive mayor or an executive committee.]
What is the cause of that? Let’s say, for example, I want to compare this Bill with a president of a country who is, for instance, bloodthirsty.
Modulasetulo, go ka tsela ye … [This is how it is …]
If, in a municipality, there is an executive mayor …
A ke e beye ka segagešo gore bakgekolo kua godimo ba nkwe gabotse. Ratoropo- konokono yo a bego a tagwa ke pušo gomme a nyaka go tšeya diphetho a nnoši, ntle le go rerišana le maloko a komiti ya gagwe, o be a kgona go dira bjalo. Bjale Molao wo o dumela gore ge komiti e bona gore moetapele yo o na le maatla a mantši kudu, e ka fetolela sebopego sa yona go mohuta wa komiti ya bokhuduthamaga. Seo se ra gore maatla ka moka ao a bego a swerwe ke motlhomphegi ratoropo wa go nyaka go ja a nnoši, a tlo[s]wa go yena gomme a fiwa komiti ya gagwe gore go se be le sephetho seo a ka se tseyago a nnoši ntle le khuduthamaga ya balekgotla ba gagwe. Le nkwa gabotse?
Gabjale go na le kgopolo ya gore ba bangwe ba boratoropo-konokono ba ka swana le Moporesitente yo mongwe wa naga, yo a sa nyakego gore seo se nyakwago ke setšhaba a se kwe ge se bolela.
Yena o gopola seo se kago kgahla yena feela gore ge a bolela ba mo opele magofsi. Ka gona, ge a hweditše polatefomo o bolela ka ntwa fela. Le nkwe gabotse! Ge nkabe e le gore Molaokakanywa wo o be o mo ama, o be o tlo mo fagola maatla ao gore le yena a kgone go itshwara bjaloka batho ka moka. [Disego.] Bjale Molaokakanywa wo ka bokopana o ra gore maatla ao a swerwego ke mokgalabje yola kua godimo o tlo a ngwathelana le khuduthamaga ya gagwe kua fase. A ke re le ya bona! (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Let me make this clear so that our senior citizens in the gallery can understand me well. The executive mayor who at times becomes power drunk and takes decisions without consulting his or her committee can no longer do that, as they used to do. The executive committee, if they discover that their mayor is suffering from his unmanaged and uncontrolled powers, can decide to reduce his or her powers so that all decisions can be taken through consultation with the whole committee.
It simply means he or she will never have those supreme powers that enabled him or her to abuse the same. Those powers will now rest with the whole executive committee. From now on he or she will not be able to do that. Am I understood?
Now there is another thought where people are saying there are some mayors who are like the president of a country who always go against the will and wishes of his people. That president does what pleases him and his family and even forces people to clap hands for him. Whenever he opens his mouth it is always war talk. Am I understood? Let us say, for example, this Bill is an Act in that country. He will be cut down to size so that he can behave like any normal person. [Laughter.] This Bill, in short, means that those powers that were held by the said mayors will be curtailed. Do you get what I am saying?]
There is another dimension.
Ge komiti e fetola maemo go tloga go mohuta wa ratoropo wa bokhuduthamaga go ya go mohuta wa komiti ya bokhuduthamaga, maloko ka moka a felelwa ke maemo a go ba ditho tša khansele gomme ramotse le yena ga a sa le ramotse. Dikomiti-phethiš i le tšona ga e sa le dikomiti-phethiši gomme ka moka di a lekana. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[When the committee changes its form to that of an executive committee, all the members of that committee, including the mayor, cease to be members of the council. The executive committee and all ordinary councillors will all be at the same level.] What does that mean?
Seo se ra gore maloko ka moka a swanetše go thoma go kgethana ka boswa gore ratoropo e tlo ba mang magareng ga bona. Ge go kgonega, ba ka bušetša yena yola ba bego ba mo kgethile peleng. Tabakgolo ke gore ge ba kgethana ka boswa gomme MEC a ba dumeletše gore ba ka kgethana, mengwaga goba lebaka leo ba ba tšwago go lona ga le sa šoma. A re re dikgetho di bile mengwaga ye mebedi ya go feta gomme ba phetha ka go fetola morago ga mengwaga ye mebedi; ka mantšu a mangwe mengwaga ye mebedi ya go feta ga e sa balwa, gomme ba swanetše go thoma ka boswa. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
That simply means all executive committee members and their mayor have to be newly appointed. They must decide amongst themselves who is going to be the new mayor. Under normal circumstances they might choose to appoint the same mayor again.]
In other words the mayor and the deputy mayor can stay in that position for only two terms. But when they change during the last two years it means they can serve for 12 years because the two-year term is not counted. A di a kwagala? Ke Molaokakanywa o rego bjalo. Efela Mmušo ka go lemoga gore go na le batho ba go o jabetša, bomabinagosolwa, ba go ja mo go sego gwa lema bona, ba ka bona gore nako ya bona e a fela gomme ba re a re fetogeng gore re tle re kgone go tšwela pele. Tšeo ba ka se di kgone ka gore motlhomphegi Mokhuduthamaga – MEC … (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[Am I understood? That is all that this Bill entails. The Government is aware that there are cheaters, opportunists and those who reap where they did not sow, who, after realising that their term is coming to an end, might decide to change the form and continue serving even after their term has elapsed. That won’t be possible because the MEC will have to approve that particular extension.]
I don’t think I’m too fast for the interpreter. I’m trying to be very slow.
Ge khansele e dira kgopelo ya go fetola maemo a yona, Mokhuduthamaga o tsitsinkela le go hlodumela pele gore afaeya mathaka akhwi ga a njabetše? Ge a lebeletše mabaka ao o tlo kgona go bona ge ekaba ke tshwanelo, ka gore go a kgonega gore ratoropo a beiwe maemong ao efela a se na maatla a go sepetša khansele. Gape ba ka nne ba fetola gore ba mo thuše gomme ba mo thekge ge a na le bofokodinyana gore le yena a kgone go tšwela pele. A ke re ngwana ga re lahle? Ee, re a godišana.
Komiti e rile ge e dutše ya lebelela gore go na le mebasepala yeo mellwane ya yona e putlaganyanago. Taba ye e ile ya tsoša kgakgathi, kgaruru le ditsikitlano tsa meno gore bjale ka gore mo go Molaokakanywa go bolelwa ka Mokhuduthamaga a nnoši, go dikarolo tše dingwe tša go ba le mellwane yeo e putlaganyanago, go swana boKruger Park, yeo e laolwago ke Mpumalanga le Limpopo le Groblersdal, yeo e laolwago ke Mpumalanga le Limpopo le Hartswater, yeo e laolwago ke mmeyane le mmeyane; bjale re reng ka tšona?
Motlhomphegi Ngaka Bouwer yo e lego setsibi sa molao kgorong o ile a re tshepiša gore tšeo ka moka di lebeletšwe ka gore bakhuduthamaga ka bobedi ba swanetše go dula fase, ba lebelele kgopelo yeo gomme ge ba kwana ba ka e fetiša goba ba se e fetiše.
A ke leboge sebaka se sa ge ke kgonne go bontšha Maafrika gore Molao wo re bolelago ka wona o bolela ka eng. Ka mantšu ao a nolofaditšwego, o ra sona seo. Ke dumela gore … (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[When the Council makes a request to change their form, the MEC will have to look seriously into their requests in order to verify if there are no ulterior motives. When he has considered all that and satisfied himself, then he can allow the mayor to continue running the council. Again, when they change the form to that of an executive council that will enable them to assist the weak or poorly performing mayor in running the affairs of the council, we cannot just silence a human being? Yes, we assist in developing one another.
As the committee sat down, they considered this Bill and realised that there are cross-border municipalities. This issue raised some havoc, tension and a crisis, because it appeared as if the Bill talks about one MEC when in fact it was supposed to have two MECs in this cross-border municipality. For example, the Kruger Park that is controlled by Mpumalanga and Limpopo, Groblersdal that is controlled by Mpumalanga, and Limpopo and Hartswater which are controlled by North West and the Northern Cape. What are we saying about them? Dr Bower, who is a legal expert in the justice department assured this committee that both MECs will have to agree before a decision is taken.
Let me take this opportunity to thank the audience that I managed to make them aware about what this Bill entails. I think I managed to simplify what this Bill is all about. I believe …]
… the reservations and concerns raised by my colleague Lawrence Lever will be addressed, because I will talk to him afterwards. I don’t think he needs to panic because we will be working together on this Bill.
On that note … ke leboga go menagane. [Legofsi.] [I thank you a million times. [Applause.]]
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 11:59. ____ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
THURSDAY, 28 FEBRUARY 2002
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Transport
in the National Assembly on 28 February 2002 and referred to the
Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint
Rule 160:
(i) National Railway Safety Regulator Bill [B 7 - 2002]
(National Assembly - sec 76) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
prior notice of its introduction published in Government
Gazette No 23100 of 6 February 2002.]
The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport
of the National Assembly.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
within three parliamentary working days.
National Council of Provinces:
- The Chairperson:
(1) Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:
Bill, as amended, passed by National Assembly on 28 February 2002 and
transmitted for consideration of Assembly's amendments:
(i) Animal Health Bill [B 64D - 2001] (National Council of
Provinces - sec 76).
The amended Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Land and
Environmental Affairs for a report and recommendations on the
Assembly's amendments.
(2) Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:
Bill passed by National Assembly on 28 February 2002 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Division of Revenue Bill [B 5B - 2002] (National Assembly
- sec 76).
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of the
National Council of Provinces.
MONDAY, 3 MARCH 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 3 March 2003 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill as a section 76
Bill:
(i) Division of Revenue Bill [B 9 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec
76).
(2) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 3 March 2003 in terms of Joint Rule 161, classified the following Bill as a money Bill:
(i) Appropriation Bill [B 8 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77).
TUESDAY, 4 MARCH 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Translations of Bills submitted:
(1) The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
Molaotlhomo wa Bosiamisi jwa Ngwana [M 49 - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 75)
This is the official translation into Setswana of the Child
Justice Bill [B 49 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
National Council of Provinces:
- Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council:
(1) Bills passed by National Assembly on 4 March 2003 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B 65B - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 75).
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Land and
Environmental Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.
(ii) Usury Amendment Bill [B 1 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec
75).
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Public Works:
Report and Financial Statements of Vote No 30 - Department of Public
Works for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2001-2002.
WEDNESDAY, 5 MARCH 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
-
Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism: (1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 5 March 2003 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
(i) Geoscience Amendment Bill [B 7 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).
-
Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159:
(1) Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill, 2003, submitted
by the Minister of Finance on 26 February 2003. Referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on
Finance.
National Council of Provinces:
- Membership of Council:
The vacancy in the representation of the Eastern Cape, which occurred
owing to the death of Mr B Willem on 28 January 2003, has been filled
with effect from 21 February 2003 by the appointment of Ms N C Kondlo.
-
Referrals to committees of tabled papers: (1) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance:
(a) Resolutions of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for 2002 and replies thereto obtained by the National Treasury - Twenty-fourth and Twenty-fifth reports, 2002.
(b) Government Notice No 104 published in Government Gazette No 24257 dated 14 January 2003: Designation of an institution of which the activities do not fall within the meaning of “The Business of a Bank” (“Ithala Development Finance Corporation Limited” formerly known as “KwaZulu Finance & Investment Corporation Limited”), made in terms of the Banks Act, 1990 (Act No 94 of 1990).
(c) Government Notice No 33 published in Government Gazette No 24264 dated 24 January 2003: Proposed amendment of Pension Fund Regulations, made in terms of the Pension Funds Act, 1956 (Act No 24 of 1956).
(2) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Local
Government and Administration:
Report of the Public Service Commission on the State of the Public
Service for November 2002 [RP 6 - 2003].
(3) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
Labour and Public Enterprises:
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Forestry
Company Limited (SAFCOL) for the year ended 30 June 2002.
(4) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
Social Services:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Construction
Industry Development Board for 2001-2002, including the Report
of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-
2002.
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Independent
Development Trust for 2001-2002, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Finance:
Report and Financial Statements of Vote No 13 - Statistics South Africa
for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 148-2002].
THURSDAY, 6 MARCH 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Introduction of Bills:
(1) The Minister of Finance:
(i) Pensions (Supplementary) Bill [B 11 - 2003] (National
Assembly - sec 77).
Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 6 March 2003.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working days.
National Council of Provinces:
- Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council:
(1) Bills passed by National Assembly on 6 March 2003 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Insurance Amendment Bill [B 52B - 2002] (National Assembly
- sec 75).
(ii) Division of Revenue Bill [B 9B - 2003] (National Assembly
- sec 76).
The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of
the National Council of Provinces.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
Report of the Office of the Auditor-General on the Budget of Income and
Expenditure for 2003-2004 [RP 11-2003]. 2. The Minister of Home Affairs:
A list of approved early naturalisation applications in terms of
section 5(9) of the South African Citizenship Act, 1995 (Act No 88 of
1995).
Copies of the list of applications are available at the Office of the
Clerk of Papers on request.
- The Acting Minister of Transport:
Report of the Regulating Committee for Airports Company of South Africa
and the Air Traffic and Navigation Services Company Ltd for 2001-2002,
established in terms of section 11 of the Airports Company Act, 1993
(Act No 44 of 1993).
- The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
(a) Proclamation No R 6 published in Government Gazette No 24351
dated 7 February 2003: Commencement of sections 8 to 13, 15 to 22
and 24 to 28 of the Debt Collectors Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of
1998).
(b) Government Notice No R 185 published in Government Gazette No
24351 dated 7 February 2003: Regulations made in terms of section
23 of the Debt Collectors Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).
(c) Government Notice No R 186 published in Government Gazette No
24351 dated 7 February 2003: Determination of date for the
purposes of section 8(1), made in terms of the Debt Collectors
Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).
(d) Government Notice No R 239 published in Government Gazette No
24393 dated 14 February 2003: Determination of amounts for the
purposes of certain provisions of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1977
(Act No 51 of 1977) made in terms of the Act.
MONDAY, 10 MARCH 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
-
Introduction of Bills: (1) The Minister for Safety and Security:
(i) Anti-Terrorism Bill [B 12 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 24076 of 15 November 2002.]
Introduction and referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160 on 10 March 2003.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working days.
WEDNESDAY, 12 MARCH 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
-
The Minister in The Presidency on 10 January 2003 submitted a letter, requesting Parliament to advise the President on the appointment of Commissioners to serve on the National Youth Commission as envisaged in section 4 of the National Youth Commission Act, 1996 (Act No 19 of 1996).
-
Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:
(1) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 12 March 2003:
(i) Local Government: Municipal Structures Second Amendment
Bill [B 68B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
National Council of Provinces:
- Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council:
(1) Bill passed by National Assembly on 12 March 2003 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Geoscience Amendment Bill [B 7 - 2003] (National Assembly
- sec 75).
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.