THURSDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2003 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:08.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

PROPOSAL TO EXTEND REPORTING DATE OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON THE SUBJECT OF THE FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION OF PARLIAMENT

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the date by which the Select Committee on Finance is to report to the Council in accordance with the resolution adopted on 23 September 2003 on the subject of the financial administration of Parliament be extended to no later than 28 February 2004.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

  AIR TICKETS FOR FORMER MEMBERS WHO HAVE SERVED A MINIMUM OF FIVE
                 CONSECUTIVE YEARS FROM 1994 ONWARDS

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council, for former Members who have served a minimum of five consecutive years in Parliament from 1994 onwards, makes available with effect from 2003 four single air tickets for every year of service up to a maximum of fifteen years, subject to the following conditions:

(1) tickets are for the personal use of the former Member and his or her spouse/partner when accompanying the former Member;

(2) except for tickets accruing in 2003, which can be rolled over for use in 2004, tickets not used in the year applicable are forfeited; and

(3) tickets are issued for economy class.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to.

As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? [Interjections.] Are you present? [Interjections.] Okay. The question is put to you so you had better respond to the Chair.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. None.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: I-Eastern Cape iyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng? [Interjections.]

Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Gauteng supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal? [Interjections.]

Mr P A MATTHEE: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Re a o thekga. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu) Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga iyasekela. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: I-Northern Cape iyavuma. [Northern Cape accepts.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North-West ke a rona. [North West is in favour.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the motion agreed to.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

  AIR TICKETS FOR FORMER MEMBERS WHO HAVE SERVED A MINIMUM OF FIVE
            CONSECUTIVE YEARS EITHER BEFORE OR AFTER 1994

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. I am glad to note that Gauteng did not have any bureaucratic problems today.

Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council -

(1) for former Members who have served a minimum of five consecutive years in Parliament in total either before or after 1994, makes available with effect from 2003 four single air tickets for every year of service up to a maximum of fifteen years, subject to the following conditions:

   (a)  tickets are for the personal use of the former Member and his or
       her spouse/partner when accompanying the former Member;


   (b)  except for tickets accruing in 2003, which can  be  rolled  over
       for use in 2004, tickets not used in  the  year  applicable  are
       forfeited; and


   (c)  tickets are issued for economy class; and

(2) resolves to rescind any previous resolution regarding travel facilities for former Members.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their votes. Are all delegation heads present? [Interjections.] That’s better now; you are present.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. No province wishes to do so. We shall now proceed with the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Better organised now. Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Gauteng supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr M J BHENGU: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Re a dumela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga iyaxhasa. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Ons ondersteun. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the motion agreed to.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM: SOUTH AFRICA UNITED IN FIGHTING VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, before I say anything, are all members wearing the white ribbon?

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you sure?

HON MEMBERS: Yes! [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ukhona oomama ongayinxibanga? [Is there any woman not wearing it?] [Laughter.]

At least the majority is wearing it. Thank you very much. Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members, thank you for affording me the opportunity to interact with this House on such a crucial matter.

The issue of eradicating violence and abuse directed towards women and children has seized the attention of our nation for a period of time now. I believe we should begin this debate by acknowledging and applauding the amount of work that has been done by all sectors to raise awareness with a view to eradicating this scourge.

It is to the credit of our country that in the democratic era, this serious problem is no longer swept under the carpet, but is openly discussed and confronted, no matter how painful it is. The first step towards eradicating such a social malady is through transparency. Through awareness the public will be able to identify and report cases of abuse.

National awareness of the problem is long-standing. The public has, in the recent past, had to come to terms with horrific cases of child abuse - one infant having been as young as five months of age. We were revolted, many people were traumatised, but in the end we all resolved to roll up our sleeves and do something to avoid a recurrence.

Similarly, the abuse of women is becoming recognised, not as a domestic or internal matter as it used to be before 1994, but as a matter that requires family members, relatives, neighbours, and communities to condemn and take action to stop it. Our criminal justice system is strengthened by such assistance from the community.

This vigilance and determination to end this scourge is enhanced by various campaigns, including the one of 16 Days of Activism launched in Kimberley this week. This campaign is aimed at further promoting awareness and galvanising all families, communities and indeed all sectors to action in support of this national task.

We are also encouraged by the fact that the Moral Regeneration Movement is taking root. A number of municipalities and provinces have already established Moral Regeneration Movement structures, and this will locate the campaigns to build caring societies firmly under this umbrella.

The participation of families, relatives and local communities is critical in ending this plague, because we believe that such acts of violence and abuse are perpetrated not by strangers, but by people known to the victims.

I believe, Madam Chairperson … Deputy Chairperson, sorry about trying to change you into the opposite sex. [Laughter.]

I believe that as public representatives we have a responsibility to promote this campaign, and to work within our constituencies and communities to bring an end to these despicable acts, going beyond the 16 Days of Activism to every day of each year.

As we head for the tenth year of the anniversary of our democracy, we also acknowledge the excellent work that Parliament has done in passing legislation that promotes the rights, security and comfort of women and children.

The Domestic Violence Act, for instance, was passed in Parliament in 1998, and through this Act women are afforded greater protection against actual or threatened physical violence and sexual, emotional, verbal and other abuses. It also protects women against intimidation, stalking, harassment, and damage to or destruction of their property, or entry into their homes without their consent.

Also recognising the responsibility of fathers to maintain their children, Parliament enacted the Maintenance Act to bring about a number of significant improvements in the maintenance system, including the appointment of maintenance investigators.

On other fronts, the SA Children’s Charter and various other pieces of legislation aimed at protecting children’s and women’s rights are further supported by Chapter 9 institutions, including the Commission on Gender Equality, the Public Protector and the Human Rights Commission.

Also soon to be passed in Parliament is the Sexual Offences Bill, which will broaden the definition of ``sexual violence’’ and further ensure that convicted perpetrators receive the maximum penalty from the state. I would like to urge members of Parliament to monitor the implementation of these laws, to ensure that they achieve the intended objectives.

In the next decade of our freedom, we intend to continue our efforts to make our country one that is not only protective of women and children, but that continues to work tirelessly to engender a culture of respect and dignity for women and children as part of building a caring society. We are convinced that the majority of South Africans share these ideals.

I would like to urge hon members, as Parliament adjourns for the constituency period and festive season, that we individually and collectively encourage all citizens in our constituencies to participate in the 16 days campaign, encouraging awareness that extends to every day of the year. Working together, we can make a difference. [Applause.]

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, this debate fits in quite well with our committee’s report on the provincial tours that we undertook to monitor the implementation of the Domestic Violence Act and the Maintenance Act, which were debated in this House the day before yesterday.

It has always been the mandate of the Joint Monitoring Committee on Quality of Life and Status of Women to oversee and monitor any and all situations that deal with the preservation of human rights of women and to unite South Africa in fighting violence against women and children. This is one of the cornerstones of our committee’s activities.

Our Government, by participating in this programme, is not only demonstrating that it aligns itself with the past 10 years’ activities by marking the 16 days of activism taking place around the world to end gender- based violence, but we are also unambiguously articulating that we will play our part to raise awareness in the global campaign for the protection of survivors of violence and the elimination of all forms of gender violence.

Make Sihlalo, likhaya akusilo likhaya nalite make. Likhaya akusilo likhaya nalite bantfwana. Kwentiwa yini kutsi sihlukumete bomake kanye nebantfwana betfu? [Madam Chairperson, a home is not a home if there is no mother. A home is not a home if there are no children. Why are women and children so much abused?]

The 25th of November, when we started the campaign, was declared International Day of No Violence Against Women in 1981. This day was chosen to commemorate the death of the Mirabal sisters in 1960 during the dictatorship of Rafael Trujillo in the Dominican Republic.

The three Mirabal sisters were tortured, raped and killed by the police for their opposition to the Trujillo regime. The day was officially recognised by the United Nations in 1999 as the International Day for the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women.

Within our own country’s borders, among every single race group and religious denomination, we struggle against years of oppression and subjugation to change the mindset of not only our brothers, fathers, uncles and sons but also the submissiveness of our sisters and mothers. How often have we experienced repeated beatings taking place in our own families.

Ngiyakhumbula kuleliviki lelendlulile, kumabonakudze, Mgcinisihlalo, kutsi bekunemfana lowavela kumabonakudze asho atsi ngakhulela ngaphansi kwemphilo lenjena yekuhlukumeta. Ngabonela kubabe wami ashaya make wami.

Nami-ke ngatsatsa ngekutsi nguyona mphilo lekufanele ngiphile ngayo. Ngatsi nami nase ngikhulile ngabe sengilingisa yena babe wami kantsi loku lengikwentako akusiyo intfo lelungile. Kanjalo ngitsi asibambaneni sonkhe silwe nalobudlova lobungenile emiphakatsini, kusho lomfana. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[I remember last week, there was a boy who appeared on television saying that he grew up under such abusive conditions. He said that he also used to see his father beat his mother.

The boy thought it was the normal way of living. He also said that as a grown-up man, he treated his wife like his father treated his mother, yet he did not know that what he was doing was not the right thing. The boy urged all the communities to work together against women and child abuse in their communities.]

Often the victim takes the blame for the action and seeks to find excuses to explain away the behaviour of the perpetrator. There is even an increase in family killings, where the husband makes a decision to kill every single member of his family. In our communities when there is a robbery and a woman is the targeted victim, the robbery is often also accompanied by rape, the worst kind of violation of a woman. The woman in this situation therefore becomes a victim twice over.

Increasingly children are also at the receiving end of abuse or rape. We have had quite a few cases in recent years of baby rape, where even suckling infants are not exempted from the brutal violation of their bodies. Across our continent and in every war situation worldwide, women and children are rounded up in war camps and abused in more ways than we can even begin to imagine.

South Africa, therefore, has a moral and social obligation which it has exercised since 1998 to increase awareness of the negative impact that violence against women has on our society. The Office on the Status of Women, the Office on the Status of Children and the Office on the Status of Disabled Persons, together with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Affairs and the national gender machinery, that is the Commission on Gender Equality, have shown great leadership in spearheading our own 16 Days of Activism which will incorporate the International HIV/Aids Day on 1 December and an International Day for the Disabled on 3 December.

The programme is there for all the provinces. I also urge members that when they go back to their constituencies they must also join the programmes that are being planned in each province. Indeed, the call to all businesses and civil society, whether NGOs, CBOs, sports or religious organisations to enthusiastically participate in the 16 Days of Activism, illustrates the gravity with which our Government views the need to stem the tide of violence against women and children.

All spheres of Government have been encouraged to consult with the gender focal points in each department and departmental clusters so as to participate in the White Ribbon campaign. The erection of the Wall of Solidarity and numerous other awareness programmes that will take place throughout the country will conclude in Parliament on 10 December.

As the ANC we are proud that we have a government that continues to be focused on improving the lives of all our women, children and the disabled, despite all negative criticism. We are especially proud that the awareness programmes are elevating the role of men and boys, inspiring them to protect their sisters, mothers and loved ones from being the targets of rapists and abusers. I want to encourage … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy President, Chairperson of the NCOP and hon members, the abuse of women and children is not limited to the act of abuse alone but extends to the choice by those who know about the abuse to remain silent.

Abuse of any sort is a crime whether or not the abuser is a friend, a partner or a family member. Silence about abuse is almost as bad as the abuse itself. Choosing silence is choosing to allow the cycle of abuse to be repeated. The New NP believes that the safety and security of our women and children of South Africa is non-negotiable. That is why the New NP supports and is actively promoting the creation of a sexual offenders register, which I believe the Department of Justice is busy looking into; more funding for civil society and NGOs - even if the DA criticises everything, I think the Government will still carry on its work; greater awareness of protection orders; more victim-friendly courts; and harsher possible sentencing.

The Government, the police and the courts alone can never solve the problem of abuse. Every woman or child that is protected is a victory, but the fight will only be over when our women and children are safe.

Die gemeenskappe moet ‘n ondersteunende rol speel, veral wat betref die mishandeling van vroue of kinders. Kom ons vat hande en werk saam om die probleem hok te slaan en veral ten opsigte van die Regering se programme. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [The communities must play a supporting role, especially concerning the abuse of women and children. Let us join hands and work together to crack down on the problem and especially with regard to the Government’s programmes.]

In conclusion, I want to say that the more people choose to speak out to expose those criminals, the sooner we will win the battle against abuse. Let us make a choice to speak out in these 16 days and as long as we live to fight abuse. [Applause.]

Ms C BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, Deputy Minister, at the heart of our Constitution lies the affirmation of equality and dignity of ordinary men and women. It tells us that the humblest amongst us have a right to respect and protection. It assures us that the law has no favourites; or does it? This question has plagued me for a long time. It is very relevant to the debate here today. Are we creating a society in which women can truly rely on the force of the law to protect them and not to work against them?

Sexual harassment is not necessarily an act of violence; it is its soft underbelly. It is subtle, secretive and leaves no bruises, but it categorically denies a woman her dignity. And for this reason alone you would expect vigilance in rooting out any signs of this culture finding a foothold in our society, especially in our public life where leaders are expected to lead by example, upholding the values of the Constitution through their own actions and leaving no room for doubt on where they stand with regard to women.

It is at this level that President Mbeki can exert moral leadership of the nation to which he has committed himself at the start of the 16-days’ campaign of fighting violence against women and children. I have therefore today, again, written to Foreign Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, urging her to take action in the disciplinary processes involving Ambassador Norman Mashabane. [Interjections.] And I have sent a copy of this letter to President Mbeki’s office.

Two weeks ago Ambassador Mashabane was found guilty on a 22nd charge of sexual harassment, and has this past week again lodged an appeal against the guilty verdict. In the meantime, he remains in full employ as Ambassador and his first appeal is two years old.

The disgrace of Kamp Staaldraad, although not directly involving women, displays a mentality which has nothing to do with team building and everything to do with dehumanising men. This is an attitude which must never be allowed to flourish in the new South Africa. It is the mindset of domination which so often translates into abuse of women.

Three women who reported harassment by Tamsanqa Khoza, then head of St Albans Prison in East London, have all left the Department of Correctional Services. As one said to me, it was much harder to speak out than to keep quiet. The botched processes, which led to their eventual resignations, speak of mismanagement on a terrifying scale, but also of an inherent resistance by a powerful brotherhood to a fair trial.

In Bisho, Ngwadi Mzamo, a housing department official, has recently been promoted despite his conviction on charges of sexual assault with the sentence of a fine of R5 000 or 12 months in prison. His victim, meanwhile, has been demoted. This was the outcome of her courageous stand to charge her superior.

When addressing a big, mixed audience on lack of discipline in the Vooruitsig prison in Kroonstad, the acting provincial commissioner Zack Modise explained transformation in the following way: ``Men, if you make love to your wives, you should try changing position. Let them lie on top and see how good it is’’, and more of the same. This was not said in a secret corridor, but in an open meeting. Quite clearly, the commissioner did not consider these statements as reflecting on his professional judgment.

These are not examples of actions by underprivileged and uneducated men. They are the actions of men in powerful public positions, having attained the top posts in their fields. They are the public face of South Africa, and what their actions are saying is: Might is right. It is saying that the Constitution is for other people; that it is okay for women to have top jobs as long they are compliant when sex is demanded of them; that as long as you keep quiet and don’t complain, you will be okay. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I would just like to say that the campaign is to be welcomed … [Interjections.] … Deputy President gave. I also read his speech of the other day - a long speech - which I thought was very good, and we welcome it.

The campaign has several objectives, the primary one must be to sensitise the public generally with regard to the prevalence of this kind of abuse. This abuse often goes unnoticed and quietly, and often close friends and family are not aware that it’s taking place. So it becomes, then, incumbent on the church, on schools and on families to become sensitive to some of the tell-tale signs of the abuse and to become educated and aware of how to deal with it.

It’s very often one thing to know what abuse takes place, but quite another to know what the correct action is, what would be positive and helpful action to take, what your legal rights are, what your social duties are, how you should go about it so that you deal with it sensitively and effectively in order to stop the abuse and help end the abuse; and to get alongside people and counsel them in whatever way you can.

Just as one needs to learn first aid so that when one comes upon the scene of an accident one has the equipment and the knowledge of how to cope with people, so it is also with this kind of thing: that the public, and I hope this campaign, will help people become sensitive to the prevalence of this abuse so that we can help reduce it.

The state also has a role, families have a role, churches have a role. Permissiveness, pornography, extreme forms of TV and film violence, gambling, prostitution, and the so-called sex industry are all breeding grounds that foster family breakdowns and sexual abuse. They reduce respect for life and for property.

The state has a role to play; to lead in this. We can’t complain about the products or consequences of some of these so-called industries, complain about what is taking place, when very often the very fact that these things exist - some of these gambling houses and so on - have the effect of eroding and assaulting the very values that underpin a healthy and productive family life, and good relationships. A breakdown is often caused by some of this violence that we see on our televisions, in our films and by some of the things we allow in our society.

I’d implore the Deputy President to please stop this trend of permissiveness, promiscuity and pornography and so on. Let’s roll it back a bit, at least, so that thereby, in my view, we make a contribution also to reducing abuse.

We wish the programme well, and we are glad that we are able to speak on it. I thank you.

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Madam Chair, his Excellency the Deputy President, the hon Minister, and the honourable House, the launch of this programme by the Government is splendid confirmation that we shall not tire, but will grapple with the monster of violence and abuse against our loved ones until we die.

I wholeheartedly agree with those who say that we cannot turn the tide if we don’t involve the men as the solution rather than the problem. The statistics on violence, especially sexual violence against women and children, show that 52 425 cases of rape and attempted rape were reported to the police between April last year and March this year. This is abhorrent and we, as men, must be prepared to take the bull by the horns.

I am ashamed, as a man, by what is rightly reported to have been said by the Mayor of Cape Town, namely that now we must define a new way of being men: men of compassion, men who do not turn their anger and frustration on the women and children in their lives, men who are strong enough to reject making victims of those who are smaller and weaker than they are.

My appeal to all menfolk is that we should propagate the message of no violence against women and children throughout, so that it should not be a message that dies off with the lapse of time. I thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, as always, I am called upon to be honest and to congratulate the hon Botha for the remarks she has made. I think it is certainly our organisation, the governing party in this country, that has led the way in determining laws that would address sexual harassment and abuse against women, and it is our duty to be true to those principles. The hon Botha is correct in the remarks that she has made, namely, that we show action on the principles that we have encoded in law. Therefore we cannot, on a basis of party political differences, disagree with the need to address the very serious matter that she raised. [Applause.]

I am pleased that I am a member of a party which doesn’t fear acknowledging a need to address where principle is breached, and I am sure the matters she has referred to will be addressed.

Earlier speakers have indicated that the national campaign of 16 Days of Activism is a continuation of our country’s ongoing struggle to eradicate violence against women and children and all vulnerable persons. In a recent radio interview, young men phoning in sought to ask why I was not referring to males who are often the subject of violence. I indicated that the intention of the campaign, while it highlights those who are most often the victims of violence, was to address violence against all persons, and it is our intention that all violence against all persons who face such abuse is eradicated in our society. I think a cursory review of South Africa’s legislative framework, in respect of the matter of violence, would reveal that much has been done from our Constitution, our national laws, our judicial innovation as well as community and civil society action. There has been much progress. The measures that we are forced to use to mark this progress are a sad indictment on our society.

We have recorded that over 2 500 women have in this year, up to this time, approached our police stations for protection orders; and hundreds of police persons have begun to improve their understanding of the laws directed at ending violence and bringing perpetrators to book. Police stations across our country look very different from five years ago. Many now have reception or trauma rooms where victims of violence receive support and counselling.

Hundreds of victims are breaking the silence. In speaking, many of them criticise the Police Service and tell of what they call their further abuse, and then refer to their further abuse in our courts. These are matters we still need to address. With all this evidence we have a very serious problem, one in which our Government, I believe, is playing a leading role in attempting to resolve it. We have, I think, to ask ourselves: What is wrong with South Africa? What is wrong with our people? Why do we continue on this path of violence against women, against children and against ourselves?

Recent developments in our courts suggest to me that we may have some indication of areas that require further attention, of areas that we must address if we are to succeed in confronting this particular blight on our society.

Our Constitution provides women with the right to be free from violence. It is a right that we treasure. But it is a right that is difficult to practically enforce, despite the revolution our first democratic Government wrought on our society and our culture.

Our Constitution contains, in section 12(1)(c), the right to be free from all forms of violence, from public or private sources. Of course, this right is available both to men and women. But in our recent constitutional jurisprudence, it has primarily been used to protect the most vulnerable, women, from violent men.

In the 1990s, the issues of gender violence became a global issue. In 1992, the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women defined gender-based violence as a form of discrimination. The elimination of gender-based violence became a human right, and this right was confirmed at the 1995 Beijing World Conference on Women.

Recently, our law has been developing what is reasonable to expect of our police in their task of preventing women from coming to harm. Two areas have been earmarked. Firstly, our courts have held that the police need to be diligent in making sure that only fit and proper people are granted gun licences. When they fail in this duty of filtering out those with known records of violence or psychological disorders, the police have been held liable and victims have recently been awarded substantial damages.

Secondly, we have the now famous Carmichelle case which turned on the release on bail of a man whom the police and prosecutors knew to be a sexual threat to women. He had a string of convictions for assault and rape, and the court finally held, after a marathon process - a painful marathon, through various courts - that the police and prosecutors were wrong to release him, and that his release was the factual and legal cause of the victim’s violation, and that she was entitled to damages from the state as a result.

The reason that I raise this case in this House is not only because it is a landmark case in our struggle to be free from violence, but also because it raises in my mind the issue of the insensitivity of the judges of our country to victims of rape.

I read with grave concern the other week the words of Carmel Rickard in the Sunday Times, where she wrote: As a group, South African judges - still overwhelmingly male - have developed a reputation for a lack of sensitivity when it comes to issues relating to women, issues such as rape or gratuitous physical violence. Nor do they feel the need to consider the listener when speaking in court.

She was referring here to the appeal hearing into the Carmichelle matter in which one of our most senior judges was considering the earlier violent record of the man who subsequently attacked and violated Carmichelle. In the judge’s view, one of the rapist’s earlier convictions scored, as he said, only a 5 out of 10 on his rape scale.

What outraged Rickard, and I think what should outrage every member in this House, is the notion that we can grade rape; you can give it a 1 out of 10 or a 3 out of 10, or else, the judge did a 5 out of 10. This 5 out of 10 rape occurred two months before the brutal attack on Carmichelle.

I think it is unacceptable to hear our judges talk like this. We should all call out loud to those judges in Bloemfontein and elsewhere that we will not stand for this sort of verbal abuse of the ordeal that so many women are forced to endure in contemporary South Africa.

I was also outraged in September to read about the decision in the Cape High Court to overturn rape convictions in a paedophile case. The court ruled that the girl-children, aged 13, had consented to sex, and the perpetrators were found guilty of the lesser offence of statutory rape and given a three year sentence.

Experts working in this field have claimed that this judgment sets back the battle against paedophilia by 15 to 20 years, as one authority said at the time:

This taps into children’s worst fears - that we adults are going to blame them. We are going to say they asked for it - they wanted it, and that maybe they liked the experience. Thirteen-year-old children are raped by adult men, and this is how some of our judges are dealing with these matters.

I believe that this must change. I would ask that our Government looks very seriously at some of the statements of judges and of magistrates, the sentences they hand down and the kind of attitude they convey about how they intend to address these very serious concerns that we have in our society.

However, we need to go beyond the judiciary. We need to go, as I said, to our communities. We need to ask about the degree to which our communities are committed to women and children’s safety. We need to ask whether our neighbours are interested in the safety of their neighbours. We need to ask whether in our schools we are doing enough. Are we educating young men out of violence? Are we educating young women to be confident citizens of our country? Are we addressing the violent nature of our society after apartheid? Because a negative character has been left on our society and we must pay attention to it. We do have a negative notion of women in our society. We regard them as subordinate, open to abuse by males and worth little in many of our communities. I think we need to have this attitudinal component placed in our curriculum as a standard part of the learning of our society.

I think the law is certainly an important agent of change. But I believe it is vital that we begin to examine other aspects of the law that may remain wanting at this time. For example, is it still the case that only young people of 18 and above have access to places which sell alcohol? I see many young people entering places where alcohol is sold. And we hear from the Police Service that many of these youth clubs, that claim to be for under 18 children, have a lively drug trade within them, and that after the clubs have closed their doors, young girls are exposed to violence, rape and other threats.

We need to look at whether we are indeed assisting perpetrators to overcome their psychological attitude towards women and to overcome the violent character that they have. Are we linking prison sentencing to counselling so that people do not emerge from prison and become repeat offenders?

I believe it is vital that we take action to make the 16 Days of Activism a real victory for our society, as our President has said: ``Let it be a focus on strategic partnerships’’ - let it be Government, let it be the private sector, let it be civil society, let it be organised labour, let it be the diplomatic community and all of us united in spreading the message about combating violence against women and children, because until we act together, we will not defeat this blight. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon members, thank you very much for an exceedingly encouraging debate. Very often, because justice is the leading department, which only means that we support the Presidency, the face of this campaign has a justice profile and that is incorrect. One of the things that we must remember is that in this work, I take my justice hat off and I report directly to the Minister and the Presidency. It is because the Presidency has demonstrated the political will to drive this process that our programme is getting stronger and stronger each year.

Mr Deputy President, I must thank you and the President for giving our campaign the kind of gravitas that it needs, and it also lends us the kind of muscle - because we need muscle - to change attitudes and behaviours that are demonstrated in our country. So, without the political will, let us just acknowledge that we would be nowhere. I am concerned about the eight minutes because it’s too little time. We could talk for three hours and we know this. But I will try to acknowledge the inputs of everyone.

I would like to thank the hon Themba so much for knowing about the events of the programme. Mr Deputy President, you will be interested to know that there are over 400 activities happening in this country within the next 16 days. Communities in the rural areas and in the towns have come together and said: How do we acknowledge and join this process? I can only say that it is because of members of Parliament like these, who tell their communities through their constituency offices what work has to be done, that this kind of message gets spread around. I am very grateful to you for your support.

To the hon Adams, I agree with you. Silence is an abuse. Very often we have people who come and use the legislation, for instance, on sexual offences and domestic violence. They are then pressured by families and spouses to withdraw the charges. So, we must please say that if we are going to eradicate the stigma that is attached to sexual offences and domestic violence, it is imperative that the mother of the child or the father of the child stands up and says: I am proud to support my child through this legal process, because it is the right thing to do. So please, I must acknowledge the hon Adams’s input.

With regard to the hon Botha’s input, I must concur with her and with the Chairperson of this House that we have principles, and we should stick to them. When they have not fulfilled themselves in the living reality of all of us, we then are let down by systems. We trust that the disciplinary process will kick in and that the dignity accorded to women by our Constitution and other legislation - the women of this country, both young and old - are vindicated through the disciplinary process.

Mr Durr, we agree that we need, critically, not to just make this a mouthing discussion. It must not be merely words. Because in fact, until behaviours are changed, it is through them that we acknowledge equality and dignity within our relationships, in our workplace and in the community. Until our behaviour changes, to demonstrate the changed values in our society and within ourselves, these are just words. This programme has got to be extended beyond 16 days. Every day has to be a concerted battle against violence against women and children.

The role of parents here is critically important. Perhaps more than anything this goes beyond justice because we are talking to ourselves and, in my case, as the mother of a son. I raise a son in the hope that one day as an adult, he will be proud to say that he has chosen the path of peace, because this demonstrates most eloquently his real manhood. We know and acknowledge that violence is the ultimate cowardice, because it is about domination and targeting the vulnerable. I hope that as a parent, I have taught my son these values.

It is so important that we show our children also how to avoid risk. Don’t let your child walk to the café on his or her own, if they are young. They are vulnerable. Make sure that some adult, elder brother or sister walks with the young child. Avoid risks. Don’t walk into dark areas. We can teach our children to be very savvy about how to avoid risks - not in fear, but in strength, and to say: ``no, to affirm my individuality, I will avoid this risk. I will make sure that I call an adult, or if I need to cross a dark area, I will go and get three adults to walk with me, if necessary.’’ They need to learn how to be very savvy, modern citizens and to protect themselves from these impositions.

We are all shamed by violence of any kind. But we are so shamed by violence against children and women because it is the vulnerability of these victims that makes this a statement about our national psyche. I am determined that with the kind of support that we have had in the conversation today, we stand a chance, by standing together, because the Chairperson referred to this as a struggle and she is right. This society is not free - not until the women of this country are free. We can put as many laws in place to create opportunities, but opportunities cannot be realised in the face of violence. If people are afraid, in the workplace, to assert their right to promotion because there is fear of threats, violence and harassment, they will not assert themselves. This happens particularly in the case of women in the workplace, in communities, and all over the place.

I would like to say to you, Chairperson, that our courts are getting better and better at responding to these issues of domestic violence. We saw in the report of this House that it is far from perfect. But you know, the frightening thing about this is that at the Wynberg court in Cape Town, during the first six month of this year, that court issued 2 500 protection orders. Of the number of applications for protection orders, 93% in fact ended in successful protection orders being issued by the court. The problem is that we are devoting more and more of our resources to this problem because women, men and children are using the legislation.

Until we demonstrate the will to prevent violence in the first place, we could actually in the long run undermine our entire justice system because our civil justice system will collapse in the face of this process. Our family courts cannot deal with the other issues around this because it is a very important issue and they prioritise it. South Africans should decide and recognise that the role of the criminal justice system is, in fact, a response mechanism to this process. We tend to respond after the damage has been done. That is why as South Africans, brothers and sisters, we have to ensure that the damage is not done in the first place. The Act entitles you to certain levels of service from the police officers, and if you do not get those services, you have the right to complain and an automatic disciplinary process comes into play. If you hear women and children screaming next door, go and report the violence. You are your brother’s keeper.

Let me just say about the way in which our men learn to socialise, that if we raise our boys in the psychologist’s trap that they are cowboys who don’t cry, they just bleed, we will never get this problem right. It is interesting that the group most vulnerable to violence, internationally and particularly in this country, are young men between 15 and 24. This is because they participate in riskier behaviour. They drive fast cars, carry guns and experiment with drugs. But the point about this is that until the boys start recognising their vulnerability to violence and that they are potential victims, and hopefully survivors of violence, they will continue to be statistics, to perpetrate violent acts upon women because they would not identify with the victim status of either men or women in this process.

They cannot become positive and proactive agents of change. It is how we raise our children that is a crucial question. And that we teach our children that the path of peace is an eloquent and admirable demonstration of their manhood, if they are boys, and of their womanhood, if they are girls. I thank you, members, for a very nice debate and I ask you to please join us. [Applause.]

There is one final thing: We are raising funds for the Government’s programmes for NGOs working with victims of violence. Last year we raised R1,8 million, and we want to try and better this. This money goes straight to the Foundation for Human Rights and it is earmarked for NGOs working with victims of violence. You can pledge R10 by dialling the following number - 082 003 9181. There is also a landline facility - 086 747 7400. The money goes straight to victims of violence. When we ask people for donations, we raise it in such a way that administrative costs are taken off and the monies dedicated and the Foundation for Human Rights helps us in this process. Thank you all for your support. [Applause.]

                 MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT

                              (Debate)

Mr T RALANE: Deputy Chair of Committees, Deputy President, and Minister, the period, commencing Wednesday 12 November 2003, was, for the Joint Budget Committee, the beginning of the most intensive activity since its formation. On this day the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement was released.

The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement precedes the formal national Budget, to be released in February next year. The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement sets out the macroeconomic and fiscal policy framework and informs the 2004-Budget.

In other words, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement gives the country and its citizens an opportunity to discuss the measures necessary to be taken in order to meet the goal of incrementally transforming our society.

The Reconstruction and Development Programme provided the country with a comprehensive plan to overhaul the public policy and services of the former regime. The objectives of the Reconstruction and Development Programme are the following: to meet basic needs; to build the economy; to democratise the state and society; and to develop human resources and to build the nation.

Government’s performance in addressing these objectives, and in implementing subsequent policies and programmes, has been examined. The document titled, ``Towards a Ten-year Review’’ assesses Government’s progress and shortcomings.

The Ten-year Review attempts to evaluate the extent to which Government has achieved its objectives in the past decade. It also explores the possible policy permutations for the next decade in the context of the RDP and the national Constitution. To address the challenges outlined in the Ten-year Review is the point of departure of the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.

The Joint Budget Committee held public hearings before which 20 national departments and 12 parastatal and civil society institutions appeared.

Although our GDP growth is expected to be around 2,2% this year, the ANC Government managed its macroeconomy in a manner that has resulted in unprecedented stability. The inflation rate fell to 5,4% in September 2003, and is expected to remain within the target range of between 3% and 6% over the medium-term period.

The prime interest rate has fallen to its lowest level over a 17-year period. Moreover, in his address to the Organisation for Economic Co- operation and Development - Global Forum on International Investment, on Monday, 17 November 2003, the Minister of Finance said the following: Despite stagnant global demand, total investment in South Africa, expanded by over 8% in the first half of the year, continuing the momentum from 9% in the second half of the year. Private investment expanded by 7% in the first half of this year. We have achieved 15 quarters of uninterrupted growth in investment spending and 18 quarters of uninterrupted growth in Gross Domestic Product.

During the public hearings, economists were of one mind: South Africa has achieved remarkable macroeconomic stability. Expansion of the government deficit to 2,6% of the GDP for the current year and 3,2% projected for the next year - more than the 2,4% estimated in the 2003-Budget review in February this year - does not threaten macrostability. The negative effect of this expansion is cushioned by the gains from lower costs of servicing Government’s debts and lower inflation.

We need to understand deficit expansion in relation to confidence-building. On this score, I am indebted to Joseph Stiglitz - the former economist at the World Bank - and his recently-published book The Roaring Nineties. Stiglitz argues that confidence matters in economic policy; and it cannot be whipped out of thin air.

In South Africa, carefully targeted deficit spending stimulates the economy in the short run and strengthens growth in the long run. This wider deficit in the short term is in line with Government’s counter-cyclical fiscal policy approach and is consistent with medium-term fiscal sustainability.

The key priorities, as set out in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, are: renewed focus on employment creation through the expanded Public Works Programme; increased infrastructure spending; R12 billion for HIV/Aids and ARV rollout over four years; extension of social security grants through child support grants and other grants targeting vulnerable groups; school textbooks for poor schools; strengthening the safety and security sector through the sector policing strategy, and a new protection and security services sector; justice centres for children; promoting peace in Africa and promoting broad-based black economic empowerment - a new budgetary priority.

The increased investment in social expenditure enhances our prospects for peace. Government is seen to be investing in its people and is the major contributor to a renewal of confidence.

Accelerated depreciation allowances for designated urban development zones have been introduced. The additional sum of R1,9 billion rands has been announced and this initiates the national antiretroviral treatment programme.

Child support grants are extended to children up to the age of 14. Three thousand additional personnel members will be employed in the SA Police Service over the MTEF period. Children are diverted from prisons towards rehabilitative environments. The number of workers and learners benefiting from skills programmes overseen by the Setas - the sector education and training authorities - will be increased.

All this proves that fiscal reductions are growth-enhancing. Investment in people, by expanding their skill base and promoting their safety and their health, has a remarkable symmetrical effect on economic growth. In any economy poorly equipped schools, decadent inner cities and high crime rates make investment unattractive. Structured and phased deficits are the best way to promote confidence in a nation. This defies standard economic theory, universally taught in economic courses around the world.

I trust that NCOP members enjoyed their interaction with and participation in the work of the Joint Budget Committee. I would like to thank my co- chair in the National Assembly, Mr Nhlanhla Nene, for his co-operation. I urge the House to endorse the Report tabled in the ATC on 18 November. I thank you.

Ms C BOTHA: Thank you, hon Chair, hon Minister. I think every single person who is competent to address the Medium-Term Budget Statement, and everyone who is not, has already done so. So, while I do not hesitate to class myself amongst the latter, I still hope I am not going to stand here regurgitating comments which have now become common coinage. Therefore I do not want to tell the Minister that his is an ``election budget’’ which he has already denied, and I will give him the benefit of the doubt. He is probably telling the truth - the election budget will come in February.

Also, I do not want to comment on the Aids budget and its chances of actually reaching the millions who need to be touched by it sooner rather than later, except in the context of sharing my concern that delivery in this country is increasingly being devolved down to a local level, where capacity and commitment simply do not match the need.

I rather want to concentrate on the proposals to alleviate poverty. Discussions in the Joint Budget Committee by all the various commentators reflected relative consensus on the concern that the enormous envisaged Public Works Programme would be more poverty alleviating than job creating.

I believe we have insufficiently confronted the issue of job shedding and job creation as intensively and openly as we should. At global level, it should be the subject of intensive think-tank discussions. It is at one level an issue where policy differences in approach to economic problems play an important role, but it is bigger than that. Jobs in the primary sector have been shed for the past 50 years - it is not a new phenomenon.

The fact that many of our unemployed are not skilled beyond the level where they can do anything other than the unskilled work required in these sectors, presents us with a particular problem. Temporary jobs in the public sector are not going to address the long-term problem.

But the positive factor is that this Budget statement clearly shows that we have the money to finance projects which can at least create temporary relief, and perhaps put down a foundation for growth on a scale which can increase salaries and wages to the employed, from whence I fear the only trickle-down effect will actually derive. What has been most interesting to me, is the way the Budget statement throws a spotlight on how intricately interrelated Government decision-making and its intended or unintended consequences are.

On the one hand we have Black Economic Empowerment and Employment Equity Targets; on the other, a firm conviction amongst whites that their skills are not valued. This very extended Public Works Programme of Government has again convinced me that the approach of disaggregating these two components of the South African economy is short-sighted, and will not serve the interests of the real poor.

About R120 billion in combined spending from Government and the private sector will be earmarked for engineering projects over the next five years. At the head of this enormous project, aimed at creating a million new jobs, will be the Public Service. At the delivery end will be local government.

But last week the SA Association of Consulting Engineers warned that there might not be enough engineers left to cope with the work. Up to 90% of its members had problems finding quality staff, as many qualified engineers had left the country, and the profession had trouble attracting new recruits. This applies equally to finding black engineers and recruiting white engineers to develop and maintain infrastructure. Increasingly,'' says the SA Association of Consulting Engineers, engineering, especially at the Public Service level, is seen as a commodity whose cost can be bid down to the lowest level’’.

Minister, I hope that Treasury does not find its sound, basic economic approach hamstrung by an approach to race and training, which sacrifices the huge potential we have for growing the economy and the welfare of South African citizens, on the altar of a misplaced political correctness. We need everybody involved. We cannot afford to ignore one single contribution, no matter from whence it comes, in achieving a better life for all.

The DA supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. Thank you. [Applause.]

Dr E A CONROY: Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister van Finansies en kollegas:”Die middeltermyn begrotingsraamwerk is geensins op die verkiesing gerig nie en die Regering sal nie fiskale dissipline met groter tekorte oorboord gooi nie.’’

Hierdie aanhaling is uit ‘n Afrikaanse dagblad gister na aanleiding van wat die agb Minister van Finansies tydens ‘n debat eergister in die ander Huis sou gesê het. Hoewel ek nie tydens dié debat teenwoordig was nie, kan ek aanvaar dat die Minister nie so ‘n stelling sommer uit die bloute sou maak nie, maar dat dit in antwoord op ‘n vraag moes gewees het. Indien dit so was, kan ek net verder spekuleer dat mens nie ver vir die oorsprong van die vraag hoef te soek nie, en dat dit sonder twyfel uit die bondel van die sogenaamde ``koalisie vir verandering’’ kom - en uit die aard van die vraag

• dat dit kom van die ``terugveg”-vennoot in daardie koalise wat loop en dagdroom oor ‘n alternatiewe regering vir Suid-Afrika.

Maar laat ek ophou spekuleer oor die goedkoop politieke munt wat mense hoop om uit so ‘n belangrike beleidsverklaring soos die middeltermyn begrotingsraamwerk te put en liewer konsentreer op ‘n positiewe benadering.

Dit word verder berig dat die Minister gesê het dat, en ek haal weer aan uit dieselfde berig, ``die begrotingsraamwerk is versigtig en verantwoordelik opgestel en gegrond op organiese groei en prestasie in die verlede’’.

Uit ondervinding van soortgelyke begrotings en mini-begrotings oor ten minste die afgelope vyf jaar, en met inagneming van die huidige stand van die land se finansies, weet ons dat ook hierdie begrotingsraamwerk uiters versigtig en verantwoordelik opgestel is.

Voorsitter, ek is ook ‘n lid van die Gesamentlike Begrotingskomitee wat oor die afgelope twee weke voorleggings deur verskeie departemente en instansies na aanleiding van die Minister se toespraak op 12 November aangehoor het en enige kommentaar wat ek vandag lewer, is merendeels na aanleiding van mededelings deur die gemelde instansies, soos dit ook uit die verslag van die Gesamentlike Begrotingskomitee blyk. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr E A CONROY: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Finance and colleagues:

Die middeltermyn begrotingsraamwerk is geensins op die verkiesing gerig nie en die Regering sal nie fiskale dissipline met groter tekorte oorboord gooi nie.

This quotation comes from an Afrikaans daily paper of yesterday with reference to what the hon Minister of Finance allegedly said during a debate in the other House the day before yesterday. Although I was not present during this debate, I can accept that the Minister would not have made such a statement for no particular reason, but that it must have been in reply to a question. If that was the case, I can just further speculate that one does not have to look any further for the origin of this question, and that it comes, without a doubt, from the ranks of the so-called coalition for change'' - and from the very nature of the question - that it comes from thefight back’’ component of that coalition which walks around daydreaming about an alternative government for South Africa.

But let me stop my speculation about the cheap political gain that people hope to derive from such an important policy statement as the Medium-Term Budget Framework, and rather focus on a positive approach.

It is further reported that the Minister has said that, and I quote from the same article, ``die begrotingsraamwerk is versigtig en verantwoordelik opgestel en gegrond op organiese groei en prestasie in die verlede.’’

We know, from our experience with similar budgets and mini-budgets over at least the past five years, and bearing in mind the present position of the country’s finances, that this budget framework has also been formulated with extreme care and responsibility.

Chairperson, I am also a member of the Joint Budget Committee which has been hearing submissions by various departments and institutions over the past two weeks based on the Minister’s speech of 12 November, and any comments that I make today are for the greater part with reference to statements by the said institutions, as is also apparent from the report of the Joint Budget Committee.]

Chairperson, firstly, I associate myself fully with the positive approach of the Joint Budget Committee towards the MTBPS, namely its careful consideration of the likely impact of expenditure allocations on the effectiveness and efficiency with which departments respond to the Government’s stated policy priorities; and secondly, whether departments are making the tough choices required and tailoring their expenditure to priorities by choosing effective strategies and seeking efficiency in implementation.

Looking at the MTBPS from this perspective, one realises that it is, to a great extent, a planning and monitoring document to be used by beneficiaries in a self-reflection exercise. Do they really need what they have been asking for and have they used with care the resources allocated to them?

Do they realise that the funds which were previously allocated to them, and which might have been lying unspent by them, could have been used more resourcefully by other departments to alleviate the need and the suffering of the poor and the sick? If they do that, then the MTBPS almost becomes a training manual in spending priorities, effective strategies and efficient implementation, and a checklist against which departments can and should gauge their own financial performance.

In conclusion I wish to congratulate the Minister on a sound and wisely constructed Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. South Africa can rest assured that its finances are in very capable hands.

The New NP supports the MTBPS. [Applause.]

Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister and hon members, economists, civil society and the public at large have received very positively the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, which was tabled on 12 November by the Minister of Finance. This response is appropriate, because once more the Government and the Minister of Finance have demonstrated that our country is capable of making decisions that are consistent with the objectives set long ago by the ANC policies, before 1994, as opposed to what the hon Sandra is saying. It also confirms that we are capable, as a nation, to live up to the challenges that our country still faces in trying to redress the imbalances of the past.

The release of the Towards Ten Years of Freedom review document has also confirmed that the past ten years have been fruitfully employed, gaining experience and making policy interventions, in order to improve people’s lives. It has also highlighted the challenges and shortcomings that we need to address, as Government, as we move forward.

The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement has clearly demonstrated the political will of the ANC Government to respond to the serious challenges that our country faces. This has been done despite the global economic slowdown, which has exerted its impact on our domestic economy. Despite all this we have steadily decreased the CPIX inflation rate, which has reached its lowest level in 20 years. And this bodes well for further reductions in interest rates, as we take into account the latest results on inflation reported by Statistics South Africa two days ago.

While recognising all the positive developments in the economy, it is very important that we continue to be vigilant because prices tend to be sticky, even in the long run. For example, increases in producer prices almost always trigger higher prices for consumers, but producer price reductions do not necessarily lead to lower prices for consumers. Therefore consumer activism in South Africa is very important so that the poorest of the poor can benefit from the positive developments that have resulted from these good things happening in our economy.

In tabling the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement the Minister informed us that Government has set up, or established, a team to look at the impact of the administered prices in achieving the macro-economic objective, which is inflation targeting between the range of 2% to 6%.

We therefore call upon all committees in Parliament to make sure that they do their oversight work - and even in municipalities and other state organs

• so that whatever they do in increasing rates and taxes, they are able to do that within this objective; because it allows us as a country to reduce inflation so that poor people can continue to afford to buy food. I think it is in the interest of the majority of the poor citizens that we must continue to do so, in doing our oversight.

It is against this background that we are able to still see increases in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework projections over the next three years. Provinces will get a bigger share of the budget over the MTEF period for the provision of basic social services that they provide in the form of health, education, social development and housing. And also local government’s share over the MTEF period will see a substantial increase in order to meet the need for free basic services, in the form of free electricity, free water and sanitation.

Allocations to provinces will increase in order to ensure that, amongst other reasons, the take-up for the child support grant is accommodated, because the age cohorts will increase further to accommodate children between the ages of nine and 10-years old. Hon members will remember that the take-up of social grants has increased substantially, including the take-up of the old age pension, the foster care grant, the child support grant, the disability grant and other grants. So it is therefore important that we understand that, within these parameters, this budget increase going to provinces, amongst others, is aimed at servicing this, whilst noting that there is an agency that is being mooted. There is a Bill in Parliament currently which is talking about establishing the agency. So it is important that we understand this issue; that this increase in the provincial allocation, amongst other things, considers this kind of issue.

The R12 billion that has been allocated to the roll-out of antiretroviral drugs, alongside prevention measures, is very important. With this lies the responsibility of all of us, and society at large, to rise to the challenge and assist people who have Aids by making sure that they take their medication as prescribed. If communities are not going to be involved in the monitoring of people who are taking these drugs, then these drugs are not going to have the desired impact.

It is also important that we note that these drugs will not necessarily cure Aids, but rather that it will prolong people’s lives, that is, those who are affected by HIV and Aids. It is therefore incumbent upon all of us to make sure that the millions of people who are not yet affected, those who are not yet HIV-positive, remain negative. And the resources that we have in the form of antiretrovirals and other mechanisms that we have in our comprehensive strategy are geared at making sure that those people remain negative.

Let us therefore redouble our efforts to encourage those who are not sexually active to abstain, and those who cannot abstain to please use condoms. And those who cannot do either of the two must remain faithful to their partners. Let us spread the message, not the disease.

Members, it is also important to note that Government has completed its work on the HIV and Aids programme. This has been made possible by the pilot studies that have been implemented throughout the country over the past two years. This process must not be seen outside of the Government’s comprehensive policies on HIV and Aids. But it must be seen as part and parcel of completing that process, because often it is said that Government has never had policies on Aids. This response is just a kneejerk response. However, we believe that is not the truth.

The committee welcomes the fact that learner support materials have been prioritised by our Government, with a particular focus on the poor communities in the rural areas. This is important to these learners and their parents who may not have any means to pay for such materials, if Government did not have this kind of priority.

Recently we visited some provinces when doing political work with the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. But what we saw in one community hall in this particular province, which I will not mention, was a big pile of learner support materials, for example, exercise books, pencils, erasers, and so forth, including textbooks and the files which were meant for governing bodies to be utilised for their training and to equip them in understanding their role. All these things were lying there in this room, and the MEC concerned of that province claimed that he did not know what was going on. And I hope that this additional allocation for learner support material will be used for the purpose intended, but in particular that the stationery procured will be delivered to schools and utilised by learners for the purpose intended.

And I do wish to appeal to all legislators, including provincial and national parliamentarians, to play an active part in carrying out oversight over departments and civil servants at all levels. We must guard against abuse and misuse of resources, but always strive towards improving poor people’s lives. And I think the delivery of stationery in this instance is a case in point.

It is my firm belief that the limited resources at our disposal must be utilised to improve people’s lives, and the provisioning of school materials in this regard must be advanced; and we must not compromise this objective. I am saying this in the light of the fact that in order for Government to provide the necessary allocation to address the many competing needs facing our country - sometimes we have to go out and borrow resources in order to do so - it is necessary that these resources, when they are at the disposal of departments, be utilised accordingly.

Government has been commended in the past, and even now, for managing our finances in a manner that is prudent. The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement also continues to take a careful approach in the financing of the budget deficit that our country has. And I think we would like to commend the Minister and Government for this.

The committee supports the bold decision taken by Government to do away with the Community-Based Public Works Programme and to replace it with the Extended Public Works Programme which will employ thousands of people over the next five years. We would like to see the private sector rising to the challenge by creating jobs as per what was agreed upon at the Growth and Development Summit. But it must also make sure that the 72 000 learnerships that was agreed to in the job summit are taken up, because it is one of the mechanisms of giving young people, who do not have experience of or exposure to work, the potential of being employed, one way or the other, or the opportunity of gaining experience.

We also welcome our Government’s continuing peace efforts on the continent, because peace in the region is crucial if our country is to maintain the stability that we have built financially, economically and politically. We must all strive to give our men and women the support they deserve while they are deployed in the many parts of our continent, and that will help us to achieve stability. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, may I express my sincere appreciation to the contributors to this debate this afternoon, and perhaps, more importantly, to the work of the Joint Budget Committee.

When we first undertook the tabling of the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, about five years ago, it was a bit of a shot in the dark. I would like to also say that when the first Joint Budget Committee was first established, its terms of reference were ill-defined. But, what we see now in the work of the Joint Budget Committee is the maturing of a process where we, as Government, can receive well-considered advice from the Joint Budget Committee and input this into the finalisation of the numbers as we prepare for the conclusion of the Budget.

The Joint Budget Committee had dealt with a series of issues but, in particular, I would like to abstract three issues concerning which we listened very carefully. The first of those is the manner in which the Joint Budget Committee dealt with the recapitalisation of PostBank. We take that advice very seriously. The other two issues are the sustainability of the SA National Defence Force in its own transformation and in empowering it to undertake the necessary peace-keeping efforts, and the realism of the land reform targets. So, we note those issues and I would like to say that we take all of the advice proffered by the Joint Budget Committee very seriously.

Similarly, it’s very important that we remind ourselves that the process of Budget reform is still underway. Key within that process of reform is the shift from the input of departments - how much money we can get - to a focus on the outcomes. For the first year, this year, the Estimates of National Expenditure included measurable objectives. They aren’t there for filling pages but they are there for parliamentary oversight. I would like to repeat that appeal to this House: to exercise that oversight by utilising the information supplied. Certainly, as we prepare the Budget documentation for next year, this is already an invitation to members of this House to look at those measurable objectives for next year and evaluate them against performance in this year. Similarly, the monthly expenditure figures - which are published quarterly and are very important for the NCOP - of actual expenditures of provincial governments become important in recasting the Budget going forward. The hon Botha commented on the issue of jobs. Let’s just stand aside from jobs as they occur in the South African economy and remind ourselves, for a moment, about the trends in the global economy. The first point to make about this is that the global economy is now marked by very severe imbalances. In the United States, the largest economy in the world, the fiscal deficit for the current year, which is called Fiscal 2004 in the US, would be 4,6% of the GDP - this from the surplus of 1,2% just four years ago. Also, the balance of payments will see a deficit of some 5,3% of GDP in the United States. They have sapped savings from everywhere else in the world. In the year 2000 it was about US$1,2 trillion. It’s down now and so they are sitting with this huge uncovered position. It’s a country living beyond its means and it poses an enormous risk to the rest of the global economy.

Similarly, events in Brussels earlier this week focused very sharply on problems in Europe. The two largest economies in Europe, France and Germany, are living beyond their means and outside of the rules agreed to within the stability pact which gave rise to the European Central Bank and indeed the single currency for Europe. So there, too, are enormous problems, and the Japanese economy remains very deeply in a quagmire.

So, in this environment, South Africa is battling to improve on the living standards of all our people, and battling to get up growth levels. It’s very hard because very clearly global demand patterns are down and this has a profound impact on what we produce and what we export. But, against that, because we are a resource-strong economy, our currency is appreciating in leaps and bounds. Thus, we have this contradiction. It’s not a uniquely South African contradiction but it is an outcome and consequence of these enormous imbalances in the global economy.

The third quarter growth numbers that were published earlier this week were, of course, also marked by one element that has shown huge isolation, and that is agricultural output. This was largely as a result of the fact that the rains have been as unpredictable as they have thus far this year in comparison with last year. So, our own growth numbers are down substantially. Those issues of the context are important.

Our commitment, I think, is therefore based on a number of issues. One of them is a question and it remains an open question: What would be the nature of jobs going forward? How many jobs can an economy like South Africa provide for, granted that we have a very peculiar history that has seen a very bad set of distortions relating to skill? So, what kind of jobs will there be in this economy going forward?

It’s very important that we talk about these issues because I think that they are our collective concerns. They are our collective concerns, because they can’t be used by anybody to make silly promises ahead of an election. They are big issues. They are going to remain big issues now and they are going to remain big issues before the 2009 elections. They are going to remain big issues everywhere in the world, because the processes of manufacturing have changed as radically as they have.

So it’s important that we talk about these issues, because I think we have collective responsibility for the lives of especially young people who make up the vast majority of the unemployed. It’s in this context that the issues of training are as important as they are. I am sure that every member of this House would be very familiar with the address of the President some two weeks ago, on 11 November, to the National Council of Provinces where he spelt out in some detail our commitment to an expanded Public Works programme.

However, I want to add to what the President said. In the same spirit that the hon Botha addressed this issue, a lot of these programmes would be run quite locally. So the nature of constituency work changes radically because communities need to identify with these initiatives. Zenzeleni doesn’t work unless there is an empowerment of local communities. The responsibility of members of Parliament is to be involved in that empowerment of local communities. To ensure that proposals can be drafted, and to ensure that we can take these very expensive consultants out of play become part of our commitment to democracy. So ensuring that we can deal with the worst ravages of unemployment and poverty in constituencies that we represent is an important part of constituency work going forward.

She also spoke about whites feeling displaced. I think that those views may be somewhat dated. When we addressed the National Assembly on 12 November when we tabled the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, I spoke about the views of one of the largest removal companies in South Africa which can comment very favourably on the turnaround. In the 80s and the early 90s they were taking lots of people out of this country. By 2001-02, they had reached a point of equilibrium. Now, for the first time, they are bringing many more people into South Africa than they are taking out of the country. Many of those are in fact amongst what the removal companies would call ``many happy returns’’. Those are South Africans who have lived abroad, tasted that life, want to return, bring their skills back, and find comfort and security here in South Africa. I think that that would be the shape of things to come in the future.

Let me conclude by saying that I was quoted as having given 19 February as the date of the Budget to be tabled in the National Assembly. That was said by me in error. The date of the Budget to be tabled in the National Assembly is 18 February. I would like to just correct that for the record and also for the benefit of members here, and advise that the work of the Joint Budget Committee would be taken into account as we firm up the numbers and sharpen our positions, not for an election Budget. We don’t need that, we need to look long beyond the election. Our commitment is not just to a set of election manifestos; it is to the people of South Africa who should be the beneficiaries of democracy. The poorest and most vulnerable of our people remain the object whom we are here to serve.

Those commitments remain and, as we argued the other day, I must say here that the trend line is organic. As Government improves, so does the ability to absorb resources, and to measurably improve on the objectives and the outcomes of the resources received; and so, too, can we spend more wisely. The trend line now is the one that was established some years ago, but we need a firm hand to ensure that the absorption rate for financial resources improves. That is very much in evidence in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. But, members of the Joint Budget Committee certainly got a fair grip of that in engagement both with officials of the National Treasury and also with officials from other departments, and outsiders who participated in those hearings.

I would like to thank the committee, once again, for its work, for the maturing of the process and for the quality of advice received. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I shall now put the question in respect of the First Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. The decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. I acknowledge that delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ vote. If there is any delegation that feels it is headless, it should indicate so now.

In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they wish to do so. Is there any province wishing to make a declaration of vote? There is none. We proceed to voting on the question. We will do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape? Is Eastern Cape headless?

Ms B N DLULANE: Eastern Cape supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr T RALANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Re a e amogela. [We accept it.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Die Wes-Kaap steun die wetgewing. [The Western Cape supports the legislation.] The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                   ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr T RALANE: Chairperson, Minister and delegates, just like any budget, our national Budget often requires adjustment. This could mean that the executive appeals to Parliament for increased allocations to some programmes, decreases in others or a shifting of funds between Votes - all in terms of the appropriations passed by Parliament in February this year.

Of course, the Public Finance Management Act limits the kinds of requests that departments are permitted to make for additional funding. Most requests for additional funding are, by and large, for emergencies considered unforeseen and unavoidable.

This year the following amounts require the approval of this House: R103 million for the Department of Home Affairs, mainly for the unanticipated costs of the Lindela Detention Centre and for the current ID campaign in preparation for the national elections next year; R34 million for the rehabilitation of flood-damaged infrastructure in the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal municipalities; R180 million for Public Works for unanticipated rates and municipal charges owing on state properties; R90 million for the Department of Health to begin implementation of a broader treatment plan for HIV and Aids; R27 million for Correctional Services for unanticipated increases in the cost of health care for prison inmates, transport costs and urgent repair work, among other things; R500 million to meet the unanticipated costs of the Defence Vote of Phase 3 of the United Nations peace mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, for South Africa’s participation in the Burundi peace mission, and for provision for support of the UN-mandated Interim Emergency Multinational Force from June to August this year; R36 million for the Agriculture Vote in order to combat foot-and-mouth disease and provide emergency fodder assistance to farmers in the Limpopo province; R50 million for the Communications Vote to meet the unanticipated costs of the closure of the Bophuthatswana Broadcasting Corporation and for the settlement of liabilities of the Independent Communications Authority of SA; R20 million for the Department of Transport to meet urgent road repair costs at a number of border posts; and R346 million for Water Affairs and Forestry, mainly to provide a ready response to forest fires, to meet emergency water supplies in drought-affected communities, to settle unrecoverable debt obligations of several water-user associations, and to meet the restructuring costs associated with the transfer of staff and infrastructure to municipalities and other entities.

Hon members should note that an amount of R400 million has been provided for members of Parliament and members of provincial legislatures who do not return to elected office, or who leave their seats. Such representatives will receive a supplementary service benefit equivalent to annual pensionable salary for a completed term of service, up to a maximum of two terms.

The Adjustments Appropriation Bill also provides for R1,1 billion in the approved roll-over of moneys unspent by national departments in 2002-03. In total, R5,4 billion in additional expenditure is proposed, of which R2,5 billion will go directly to provinces.

On behalf of our committee, I commend the 2003 Adjustments Appropriation Bill for approval by the NCOP. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I shall now put the Votes as they appear in the schedule, and as I put each Vote I shall allow parties an opportunity for declarations of vote if they so wish.

Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 2 - Parliament - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 6 - Public Works - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 7 - Government Communication and Information System - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance abstaining).

Vote No 8 - National Treasury - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 12 - South African Management Development Institute - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 13 - Statistics South Africa - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance abstaining).

Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 15 - Education - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 16 - Health - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 17 - Labour - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 18 - Science and Technology - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 19 - Social Development - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 20 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 21 - Correctional Services - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 22 - Defence - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 23 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 24 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 25 - Safety and Security - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 26 - Agriculture - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 27 - Communications - put.

Vote agreed in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 28 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 29 - Housing - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 30 - Land Affairs - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 31 - Minerals and Energy - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 33 - Transport - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.

Schedule agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                     REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, hon Minister of Finance and colleagues, as I mentioned in my address to this House exactly 17 months ago, on 26 June last year, and at a similar occasion the year before, it becomes necessary once in a while to neatly tie a collection of amendments to a variety of facts, and more specifically so when these refer to tax matters.

Today is no different from last year or the year before, for that matter. The Revenue Laws Amendment Bill of 2003, which was introduced on 18 November 2003, aims to give effect to all outstanding tax proposals as outlined in the 2003 Budget and to amend all related Acts.

The present Bill, contained in a hefty document of no less than 138 pages and 226 clauses, introduces amendments to Acts, varying from the Transfer Duty Act of 1949 to the Exchange Control Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Act of 2003, and even amends the Revenue Laws Amendment Act of 2001 and the Second Revenue Laws Amendment Act of 2001.

A new, comprehensive corporate reorganisation regime was introduced on 1 October 2001. This regime was modified and clarified in 2002, in response to taxpayers’ comments. The modified regime came into operation on 6 November, 2002. A few issues, however, remained unresolved and, in order to remedy any remaining minor issues, the National Treasury and Sars requested public comment with respect to the corporate reorganisation regime and collateral, related amendments regarding issues that involve clarification of ambiguities, removal of inconsistencies and changes to reflect the corporate reorganisation regime’s initial intent.

While some of the clauses are repetitive and most of the proposed amendments merely refine the present regime or clarify aspects thereof, others are more substantive. The proposals regarding elective relief, the ring-fencing of trading stock and financial instruments, the treatment of financial-instrument-holding companies and unbundling transactions are more substantive. The limited time at my disposal, however, does not allow me to go into any detail. I will now proceed to highlight some of the more significant amendments.

In clause 86(b), it is proposed that a personal liability be introduced in respect of employees’ tax for representative employers, as well as directors or shareholders who control or are regularly involved in the management of the company’s overall financial affairs. International experience has shown that the imposition of personal liability on officers and shareholders of a company is an effective procedure to prevent the misuse or misappropriation of funds collected on behalf of the state.

Clause 134 proposes an amendment to section 6 of the Customs and Excise Act of 1964, which relates to the powers of the commissioner to prescribe or to appoint, inter alia, places where degrouping depots for air cargo may be established, while clause 136 refers to the provision for the liability for duty of a degrouping depot operator and the circumstances in which such liability ceases.

The proposed amendment of section 35(a) of the Customs and Excise Act of 1964, clause 135, is intended to assist the commissioner in curtailing the smuggling of cigarettes and will enable him or her to make rules regarding distinguishing marks and numbers which must or must not appear on cigarette containers, in addition to the existing provision for a stamp impression.

In clause 137, the words, International Trade Administration Commission'', replace the words,Board of Tariffs and Trade’’, in terms of the International Trade Administration Act of 2002.

Clause 147 causes a new chapter XA to be inserted after chapter X in the Customs and Excise Act of 1964. Part A provides for internal administrative appeals and an appeal committee which will make recommendations to the commissioner, while part B provides for an alternative dispute resolution whereby the Minister of Finance may, after consultation with the Minister for Justice, promulgate rules which may also include categories of decisions which are not suitable for alternate dispute resolution.

Clause 166 refers to value-added tax treatment of grants paid by public and local authorities. When Government entities currently registered as enterprises deregister, they will have to pay output tax on the market value of their assets, which will result in a circular flow of funds in the government sphere. A proviso in section 8(2) is proposed to prevent the operation of the provisions when Government bodies are deregistered in terms of this Act.

As announced in the 2003 Budget Review, the definition of a lending arrangement'' will be modified to allow for securities on-lending as long as the loan is not outstanding for more than 12 months. The amendment proposes the replacement of the definition oflending arrangement’’. The new definition, inter alia, provides for the on-lending of listed securities and requires the borrower to deliver the securities within a 10- business-day period after the date of the agreement.

Clauses 199 to 203, as well as clause 205, refer to Customs Controlled Areas or CCAs, and Industrial Development Zones or IDZs. A number of sections which would have to come into operation on a date fixed by the President are being repealed or amended. These sections provide for the licensing of wharfs, container terminals, transit sheds and degrouping depots.

The various provisions contemplated controlled movement of imported goods between those licensed premises until delivery after due entry. It has, however, been found necessary to introduce licensing requirements for degrouping depots before any of the other activities concerned reach the implementation stage. As the introduction of the licensing requirements on a piecemeal basis could lead to numerous amendments of the existing legislation awaiting implementation, the provisions are repealed in the meantime.

I will now proceed to read into the record a list of administrative, printing and other errors and corrections in respect of the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill.

On page 11, line 27, to insert (1) before section 3; page 11, to insert after line 57, (2) subsection (1)(c) shall, in so far as it deletes the reference to sections 9E and 9F, come into operation on 1 June 2004, and shall apply in respect of years of assessment commencing on or after that date"; page 18, line 54,controlled’’ must be deleted; page 32, line 25, words must read, commits to the objective of processing"; page 84, line 47,this Act’’ must read that Act"; page 97, line 19, by notice’’ should read by proclamation"; page 115, lines 1 and 2 should read, (g) by the substitution in subparagraph (h) of paragraph (3) for the words preceding item (i) of the following words”; page 135, line 51, add after Income Tax Act, 1962'', the following words, for the words preceding paragraph (a) of the following words’’.

In conclusion, I wish to thank, on behalf of the Select Committee on Finance, our friends from Sars, for the very clear explanatory memorandum which has made an otherwise very technical Bill perfectly digestible.

On behalf of the Select Committee on Finance, I request the House to support this Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON HEARINGS
      CONCERNING PREFERENTIAL PROCUREMENT POLICY FRAMEWORK ACT

Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Chairperson, this is a report that the select committee compiled after extensive public hearings which were held from 8 to 10 September. We just want to thank all the presenters who took interest to come before the committee to present. Indeed, they managed to assist the committee to do the investigation that we wanted.

I will just outline a few issues that are critical in this report. I would like to highlight to the House what the aim of the hearings was, in the first place. The aim of the hearings was to hear from civil society and the industry how the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act has achieved its objectives since its inception, and how far it gives effect to section 217(2) of the Constitution. The hearings also played a role regarding the investigations of legislative problem areas which may warrant Government intervention in order for the Act to become a key policy instrument to effectively ensure economic transformation in South Africa.

I would also like to remind members about the few key elements of what the Act says. When applying the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act, the relevant institutions must consider the following: the points for historically disadvantaged individuals in terms of ownership, with a proviso that the HDIs concerned must be actively involved in the day-to-day management of that business; the points for the Reconstruction and Development Programme goals to be promoted must be clearly specified in the tender documents; that goals must be measurable, quantifiable and monitored for compliance; the tender must be awarded to the bidder who scores the highest number of points unless sound reasons justify awarding it to another, and this must stand the test of any court of law; and, that the bidder’s tax status must be in order.

Amongst other things, the regulations of the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act which were published in 2001 specify that in contracts of less than R500 000 an 80-20 system applies, with the price and functionality allocated a maximum of 80 points, and the maximum of 20 points allocated to the historically disadvantaged and other RDP goals. Government thus is willing to pay a 25% premium on these contracts. The second point deals with the 90-10 principles which cover contracts that are over R500 000, with price and functionality weighted at a maximum of 90 points, and the HDIs and other RDP goals scoring a maximum of 10 points. The premium in this instance is 11-11 by Government.

I just want to highlight a few important issues - having indicated and reminded members of what the Act and regulations stipulate. What we then found to be the prevailing circumstances when we conducted the public hearings was that there is a lot of fronting. I am sure that members have heard those kinds of stories that there is ``rent-a-black’’ and those kinds of things. A situation where blacks are put on tender documentation as partners in the business, while those individuals are general employees or domestic workers, indicates the practices taking place around tendering and highlights the difficulty of promoting policy implementation. At the time of tendering, the company profile is black and owned by previously disadvantaged people but at the time of delivery, the profile changes. How to deal with this problem is still an elusive question. Once tenders have been awarded, it is often difficult and costly to withdraw these tenders despite the fact that the Act allows that there must be some process involved if the tender changes face in the process.

It should be understood that organisations and labour markets are dynamic and that people move from one company to the next. Monitoring systems are not in place to counter these and related fronting practices. In many respects, the point system facilitates the formation of partnerships. The quality of those partnerships is therefore questionable in many of these instances.

Black ownership, to this date, is very narrow. Special purpose vehicles served up to encourage equity ownership allow for and facilitate fronting practices, in many cases. It is common to transfer the ownership of a white male-owned company into the name of a spouse, in this instance to a white female because the white male thinks that he is not going to get the tender and therefore transfers ownership to a spouse’s name. Regarding white women, it does not specify and clarify the characteristics required of such a woman. In such instances, it is being manipulated because, between me and all other members, we understand what we mean by historically disadvantaged, but people who implement these things find all sorts of means and mechanisms of manipulating the system, and find loopholes. In this example, they managed to bring in a white woman to be a beneficiary so that she could fall under ``historically disadvantaged’’.

It should be understood that black companies also approach white-owned companies and thus promote fronting. Legal fronting can also be defined through the fact that the tenderer is not always the manufacturer or supplier. I think all members can tell different stories where people get contracts and don’t even own a bus, or whatever, in order to provide those services. At the end of the day, when the contract is awarded, a white company then takes responsibility and executes that task. I think that creates a problem.

One of the presenters who came before the committee from Armscor commented in their submission that most companies previously owned by nonhistorically disadvantaged individuals have now restructured their companies and are changing ownership of these companies to give them to relatives and so forth. From Armscor’s presentation, it could be established that this is happening mainly in the arms industry. A key element of fronting is that it is designed to meet empowerment criteria for the purposes of a particular contract while holding back on genuine institutional transformation. This may involve the criteria of ad hoc artificial bidding entities to meet the PPPFA and black economic empowerment criteria. This may involve only a small part of the business operation and the HDI representation in such a segment will appear less significant when set against an entire operation.

One of the things that we want to highlight as a difficulty is a scenario where you find state-owned enterprises or independent bodies, such as your SABC, who will find every opportunity or loophole not to want to procure goods in South Africa. The excuse that is given by the SABC is that they are a broadcasting corporation. We do not get adequate answers when we ask them to indicate to us where exactly the Act prohibits them from not buying goods overseas.

The Act also provides that if an entity or state organ cannot find the goods that they need in South Africa, they can then be exempted by the Minister through publication in the Government Gazette. They do not do this but want, in the process, to find all sorts of mechanisms and loopholes not to fall within the Act. If public corporations such as the SABC do not want to assist the historically disadvantaged in the procurement of goods and services, I don’t know what we then expect from other people who are not part of the Public Service.

The other problems around the implementation concerns a lot of difficulties that were noted by the Treasury. These difficulties in particular are around the laborious calculation processes, ie when you either deal with the 90-10 or 80-20 principle, you have to engage in tedious calculation processes. The other important element which I also need to highlight is that, as we all know, the Act was passed in 2000 and between 2000 and now a lot of policy development has taken place, including the passing of the BEE strategy and the Broad-based Black Economic Empowerment Bill in Parliament. So all those things make it difficult for the alignment to happen in implementing procurements. The committee, amongst other things, recommends that we make sure that, in going forward, there is some consideration by the Treasury and DTI that there must be alignment within these policies so that people who are out there who want to find loopholes do not choose interpretations that suit them more than the others.

One other element that the Act provides for is the empowerment of women and youth, in particular, around historical disadvantage. We noted, in the submission by the Treasury regarding what has happened practically to people who have been given contracts, that the majority of those people are not necessarily women nor are they youth. It is therefore important that the Treasury considers putting systems in place within this decentralised system that you are going to have in all departments. But, a guiding framework and a database must be kept which are going to clearly indicate whether those are black women, white women or youth and give a clear classification regarding the nature of those companies. As things stand now and from the information that we were given by the Treasury, Government departments and provinces, it is difficult to know and understand how many women have benefited from the process, and how many young people have benefited. So these are the kinds of issues that I think Treasury must consider very carefully and be able to give some guidance on.

As I conclude, I would like to say that we made some recommendations as a committee, because the report is very lengthy. One of them was that the alignment must take place within all these policies between the DTI and National Treasury, and that there must be some uniformity. Where there is ambiguity in any of the Acts, particularly around the RDP goals …

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I want to know if it is in order for an hon member to read magazines during the debate session.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think it’s certainly not in order. Hon members should be paying attention to the business of the House. The House is not a reading room. So I would ask hon members to desist from reading newspapers or magazines in the House. Proceed, hon Mahlangu.

Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Thank you, Chairperson. Also, we propose that mechanisms should be put in place to assist officials and practitioners with proper interpretation and implementation of the Act. We also propose that company premises should be visited before tenders are awarded as suggested by the Armscor presentation, because you find that you award a tender but people have not gone out to look whether that company indeed exists or whether they really operate in the stated premises. So we propose that before tenders are awarded, there must be people who go out there to do the physical inspection. We also propose that closed tender processes are needed. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be agreed to. The decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. We note that delegation heads are indeed present in the Chamber. We would first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote in terms of Rule 71 if they wish to do so. Is there any province wishing to make a declaration of vote? Kgoshi Mokoena is not sure, so we will pass on. [Laughter.]

We shall proceed to voting on the question. This will be done in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads should indicate their province’s vote. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr T RALANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng e a dumela. [Gauteng supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Re a dumela. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Northern Cape supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West province?

Mr P D N MALOYI: North West agrees.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Iyayixhasa. [It supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                             LIQUOR BILL

                       (Consideration of Bill)

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, in the first instance I want to donate nine minutes of my 10 minutes to you, to use at your own discretion, as I need only one minute. [Laughter.]

We will remember that this House passed the Liquor Bill with amendments, and that’s my emphasis, on 8 October this year. Because we had amended the Bill, it was referred back to the National Assembly to consider our amendments. The National Assembly approved all our amendments, except clause 6(2), which reads, and I quote: ``A person must not manufacture, sell or supply any potent substance.’’

Their view was that it must read as follows, and I quote: A person must not manufacture, sell or supply as liquor'' - that's my emphasis - any potent substance.’’

In other words, they argued that there must be an addition of two words, which are, as liquor''. The Bill was then referred to the mediation committee on 18 November, where it was agreed that we add the words, as liquor’’ to clause 6.

We are still committed to what we presented to this House, that among other things, liquor is a potentially dangerous substance and that its manufacture, distribution and retail cannot just be left to market forces. There is a need for us to regulate it. However, the amendments agreed to by the mediation committee do not change the real essence of the Bill. We want to urge this House to adopt the mediated version of the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I believe, hon member, that you stole one of the minutes you donated to me. [Laughter.]

I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. Again, we deal with the decision in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. Is there any province wishing to make a declaration of vote? There is none. We proceed to voting on the question. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr T RALANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng e a tlatsa. [Gauteng supports].

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOKE: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Re a dumela, Mma go rena. [We agree.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga ondersteun. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Siyavuma. [We agree].

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West province?

Mr P D N MALOYI: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Iyaxhasa [Supports].

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All the provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to. [Applause.]

                ELECTORAL LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Order disposed of without debate.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

               JUDICIAL MATTERS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, as usual, this committee did a very thorough job in respect of this Bill, which one can call an omnibus Bill. We nearly refused, as a committee, to entertain the briefing by the department when they did not have available the existing legislation to be amended at the first briefing. However, under the leadership of our fair, accommodating chairperson we agreed to do that and go ahead. I must say that after that they have been extremely helpful, and we wish to really thank them as a committee for being so helpful and assisting us with this.

The Bill deals with various amendments to various Acts, inter alia, the Administration Amendment Act, the Insolvency Act, the Prevention of Counterfeiting of Currency Act, the Criminal Procedure Act, the Divorce Act, the Maintenance Act, the Mediation in Certain Divorce Matters Act and the Promotion of Access to Information Act.

During the course of deliberations on the Bill, the committee raised a number of questions regarding certain courses. And because of time restraints, we requested the department to report back to the committee on these issues as early as possible during the next year’s session, of 2004, and where necessary to submit appropriate legislative proposals. I could just refer to a few of these matters.

Clause 4 of the Bill amends section 60 of the Criminal Procedure Act by obliging presiding officers to take a pretrial services report into account during bail proceedings if such a report is available. The purpose of a pretrial services report is to assist the court in making a decision regarding the release of a person on bail.

The committee notes the request from the portfolio committee in this regard, that is that the department should undertake a feasibility study. This committee requests the department, during this feasibility study, to also look into the linkages between the pretrial services project and the Automated Fingerprinting Identification System project mentioned here. I note in the report that Afis is spelt wrongly. It should be Afis. It is the Automated Fingerprinting Identification System and not Aphis.

In the process they should undertake a cost-benefit analysis of both projects to ensure that scarce resources will not be inappropriately utilised if there is a duplication of processes, or if the one project seems to be better placed than the other to achieve the goals set out.

Clause 5 aims to establish legal certainty regarding correctional supervision as a sentencing option in respect of all offences. While we as a committee endorse the amendment in principle, we requested the department to consider and submit a manual amendment to the proviso contained in the clause as soon as circumstances permit, to the effect that a court may not impose the punishments referred to in the said section if the court is obliged to impose a sentence contemplated in section 51 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, and not if the court intends to do so.

Clause 6 of the Bill entitles victims of crime - an extremely important provision - when the accused person in question is considered for parole or correctional supervision by a parole board, to have a say. Whilst we welcome a provision of this nature, the committee raised the following questions: Firstly, why is this right only limited to victims of crime who are actually physically present when the sentence is imposed? Secondly, should a mechanism not be put in place in the legislation that will ensure the confidentiality surrounding the identity and whereabouts of any victim who supplies his or her name and address?

We requested the department to take these issues up with the Department of Correctional Services and to address them by way of appropriate legislative proposals, which must be submitted to Parliament at the first available opportunity next year. And we feel very strongly about this question of the identity of victims and that there should be no chance or risk of them being intimidated.

We requested the department, depending on the enactment of amending legislation, to deal with confidentiality of victims and, when implementing the legislation, to put administrative measures in place to ensure that confidentiality is maintained.

Another clause which I must mention is clause 11, which deals with provisions of the Divorce Act, revolving around the sharing of pension benefits on divorce. I think this is also extremely important especially for, in most instances, women.

The committee requests the department to investigate the possibility of allowing the spouse who is not a member of a pension fund to gain access to her or his share of the pension benefit at the time of divorce, and not only when the pension benefits eventually - and sometimes maybe 20 or 30- years’ time - accrue to the spouse who is a member of a fund.

The last clause that we refer to is clause 25, which is an empowering provision allowing the Minister for Justice, when making regulations, to criminalise any act or omission contemplated in the regulations dealing with manuals as contemplated in the Promotion of Access to Information Act.

We, as a committee, while recognising the fact that numerous Acts of Parliament and subordinate legislation already empower members of the executive to make regulations which criminalise various acts or omissions, raised the concern regarding the desirability of creating offences in terms of subordinate legislation, which is not easily accessible to members of the public. We consequently requested the department, or possibly even the SA Law Reform Commission, to initiate an investigation into the desirability and even the constitutionality of all provisions of this nature on this Statute Book.

We, of course, recommend that the House accept this Judicial Matters Second Amendment Bill, which deals with various amendments to various Acts, as I pointed out. As you can see, we as a committee really thoroughly applied our minds to this Bill in hand. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I’ve been informed that there will be one debate in respect of Orders 9 to 14. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION AGAINST TRANSNATIONAL ORGANISED CRIME

  CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND
  CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - PROTOCOL TO PREVENT, SUPPRESS AND PUNISH   TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS, ESPECIALLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN, SUPPLEMENTING THE
   UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION AGAINST TRANSNATIONAL ORGANISED CRIME

 CONSIDERATION OF SECOND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND
  CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - PROTOCOL TO PREVENT, SUPPRESS AND PUNISH   TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS, ESPECIALLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN, SUPPLEMENTING THE
   UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION AGAINST TRANSNATIONAL ORGANISED CRIME

  CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND    CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - PROTOCOL AGAINST THE SMUGGLING OF MIGRANTS BY    LAND, SEA AND AIR, SUPPLEMENTING THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION AGAINST
                    TRANSNATIONAL ORGANISED CRIME
 CONSIDERATION OF SECOND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND    CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - PROTOCOL AGAINST THE SMUGGLING OF MIGRANTS BY    LAND, SEA AND AIR, SUPPLEMENTING THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION AGAINST
                    TRANSNATIONAL ORGANISED CRIME

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - PROTOCOL AGAINST THE ILLICIT MANUFACTURING OF AND TRAFFICKING IN FIREARMS, THEIR PARTS AND COMPONENTS AND AMMUNITION, SUPPLEMENTING THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION AGAINST TRANSNATIONAL ORGANISED CRIME

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, if one looks at the Order Paper, it appears that my task to deal with six reports in five minutes is a daunting one. However, due to the generosity of the Chief Whip - I don’t know if it’s Mr Tolo’s minutes he has reallocated to me - I have some more time. Also, it’s not as bad as it seems because the six reports from the select committee deal with one United Nations convention which is the United Nations Convention Against Transnational Organised Crime and three protocols which are in fact supplementary to the convention. Clearly, then, it is appropriate to deal with these six reports in one statement.

Due to the time constraints, I will not deal with every technical aspect of the convention and the three protocols. I will simply try and give an overview of the convention and the three protocols that supplement the convention.

The purpose of the convention is to promote international co-operation to prevent and combat transnational organised crime more effectively. The convention deals with four specific crimes: participation in organised criminal groups; money-laundering; corruption; and obstruction of justice. Our domestic law already caters for the four crimes just mentioned. It is important to note that the convention requires liability for these crimes to extend to legal persons. This is an important provision because crime bosses have increasingly used companies to facilitate transnational organised crime.

The convention requires state parties to empower courts or competent authorities to make available or seize bank or financial records and prohibits a state party from hiding behind bank secrecy laws.

Co-operation in terms of the convention includes extradition and mutual legal assistance. The convention requires that participating states take measures within their means to assist and protect members covered by the convention. This has been interpreted to mean that a participating state must implement legislative procedures that would allow victims to claim compensation from the perpetrators of crimes defined in the convention. The convention further requires states that are developed to provide less developed participating states with expertise, resources or both in order to allow the developing states to implement the convention properly.

Protocol one supplements the convention. Its main purpose is to prevent and combat trafficking in persons especially women and children and further to protect and assist the victims of such trafficking. The protocol requires participating states to establish the crime of trafficking in persons. Here I must refer to the select committee’s second report on the first protocol. At this point, South Africa does not have any legislation that criminalises trafficking in persons. I must therefore draw the attention of the House to the resolution proposed in the second report on the first protocol that the Government fulfil its obligation and pass legislation criminalising trafficking in persons within three months of adopting this resolution.

The first protocol requires participating states to consider providing assistance to victims of trafficking in persons. It does not oblige a state to provide this assistance, but urges participating states to consider providing appropriate housing, counselling and information on legal rights, medical and psychological and material assistance as well as employment and education opportunities. Our law must also allow victims to claim compensation from perpetrators. But the state is not obliged to establish a compensation fund for victims under the protocol.

Protocol two also supplements the convention and its purpose is to prevent and combat the smuggling of migrants and to promote co-operation amongst participating states to combat such smuggling. This protocol adopts the position that migrants shall not be liable to criminal prosecution under this protocol. The protocol requires the adoption of legislation to establish the smuggling of migrants as a criminal offence. Here, again, I must draw the House’s attention to the second report of the select committee on protocol two. At present there is no domestic law that criminalises the smuggling of migrants and again three months are provided to rectify the position. Participating states are required within their available means to tighten up on border controls, to prevent and detect smuggling of migrants. Participating states are required to co-operate with the return of smuggled migrants.

Protocol three also supplements the convention and aims to prevent, combat and eradicate the elicit manufacturing and trafficking in firearms. Participating states are required to have in place legislation that criminalises the illegal manufacture and trafficking in firearms, their parts and components as well as ammunition; and also to criminalise the falsifying or obliterating, removing or altering of marks on firearms. Our domestic law is fully compliant with this protocol. There are a number of technical requirements relating to licensing and maintenance of records in the protocol. Regarding the convention and the three protocols concerned, we recommend its adoption with one reservation in respect of the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice. The report makes it clear that the reservation is a temporary measure that will stand as and until the Government has given its consideration to the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice.

It is therefore my honour to urge this House to adopt the convention, protocols and reports of the select committee on that convention and protocols. Thank you. [Applause.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon Lever. I shall now put the question in respect of the Ninth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. As this decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether delegation heads are all present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. I think they are all present. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. We shall proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they are voting in favour or against or abstaining from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyavota. [We are voting.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Eastern Cape, are you supporting it or not?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyayivotela. [We vote for it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Rev M CHABAKU: Siyayivotela. [We vote for it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng e a dumela. [Gauteng supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Re a e thekga. [We support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: IMpumalanga iyawusekela. [Mpumalanga supports it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: INorthern Cape iyawuxhasa. [Northern Cape supports it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Die Wes-Kaap steun die wetgewing. [The Western Cape supports the legislation.]

All nine provinces voted in favour of the report. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

I shall now put the question in respect of the Tenth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow them the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I will do so in alphabetical order. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Re a e thekga. [We support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Rev M CHABAKU: Sima nayo. [We stand by it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng e a dumela. [Gauteng supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Ke laka leo. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: IMpumalanga iyawusekela. [Mpumalanga supports it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Siyayivuma. [We accept it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: The Western Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

I shall now put the question in respect of the Eleventh Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: We support.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Rev M CHABAKU: O otlile kgomo mo lenakeng. [We precisely support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng e a dumela. [Gauteng supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Re a dumela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Ons steun. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Siyayivotela. [We vote for it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

I shall now put the question in respect of the Twelfth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Re tsamaelana le yona. [We support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Rev M CHABAKU: Dubbele ondersteuning! [Double support!]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Sihambelana nayo. [We support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo. Mr M I MAKOELA: I khou tendelana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Siyayixhasa. [We support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Re a dumela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Die Wes-Kaap steun. [The Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

I shall now put the question in respect of the Thirteenth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber. They are all present. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I will do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Ondersteun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Rev M CHABAKU: Liefhebbende ondersteuning! [Loving support!]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng? Ms D M RAMODIBE: Iyavuma iGauteng. [Gauteng supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Re a e thekga. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Re a e thekga. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

I shall now put the question in respect of the Fourteenth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution I shall first ascertain whether delegation heads are present in the Chamber. They are present. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Ya hina. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Rev M CHABAKU: Ke ya pere e tshweu. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: E a dumela, Gauteng. [Gauteng supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Re a dumela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: I khou tendelana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Re a e amohela. [We accept it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Die Wes-Kaap steun. [The Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - PROTOCOL ON SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT (SADC) TRIBUNAL CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - AGREEMENT AMENDING THE PROTOCOL ON SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT (SADC) TRIBUNAL

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, I have been requested by Oom Dawie not to speak, but that request is not acceded to.

The object of the protocol before this House is to constitute the tribunal. You will recall that in terms of article nine of the SADC treaty, provision is made for the establishment of SADC institutions, one of which is the tribunal.

Article 16(1) of that treaty indicates that the tribunal shall be constituted to ensure adherence to, and proper interpretation of the provisions of the treaty which we are talking about. Article 16(2) of the same treaty provides that the composition, powers, functions, procedure and other related matters governing the tribunal shall be prescribed in a protocol which should be adopted at a summit. The protocol is before this hon House, and on 7 August 2000 in Windhoek, Namibia, heads of state signed this protocol. We are therefore calling upon this honourable House, which I had forgotten to greet from corner to corner, but I will do that next time around, to ratify this treaty. I can assure you, I can put my head on a block, that no provision of this protocol is in conflict with any of our domestic laws, or any of the international laws. It is therefore correct that we should ratify this protocol.

I like the second part, because it is very long. Listen to me, and listen carefully, we are requesting you and the hon House to approve the agreement amending the protocol. Those amendments are technical, that is why they are long. What we want to do is to delete the words states'' and state’’; and substitute it with the words member states'' and member state’’, because we want to make it very clear that we are talking about member states.

What we want this House to do is to approve what I have requested. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I shall now put the question in respect of the fifteenth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to.

As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber. I am assured they are present. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. I shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I will do so in alphabetical order per province.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Steun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Rev M CHABAKU: Ke modia nyewe wa heso. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Re a e amogela go menagane. [We support it wholeheartedly.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: E a dumela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Die Wes-Kaap gaan akkoord. [The Western Cape concurs.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

I shall now put the question in respect of the sixteenth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their province’s votes. According to Makoela they are all present. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I will do so in alphabetical order per province.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Iyahina. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State? Rev M CHABAKU: Ke a rona. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Ke a rona. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Ya seketela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Re a mogela. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape? Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Re a mogela. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West iyahina. [North West supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Western Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All nine provinces voted in favour, I therefore declare the report agreed to.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT RULES COMMITTEE - IMPLEMENTATION OF
RECOMMENDATIONS OF JOINT SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, the Constitution and its founding principles enjoins this Parliament and Government to ensure that they operate in an accountable manner, and that Parliament oversees the actions of the executive, and that the executive, as well as public representatives, act in a manner that is transparent and responsive.

The question that we have to ask, as members of Parliament, and particularly members of this Council, is whether, in terms of the provisions of the Constitution, we have complied with the dictates of the Constitution and whether, in fact, we have promoted oversight and accountability as quite central to our activities as public representatives.

In order to respond to that, one has to only look at the Order Paper of today. For example, we had the Presidency account to Parliament in terms of an issue to which it responded, a compelling issue, and that is combating violence against women and children. The Presidency was available here, and in a very transparent manner, accounted to this particular Council. We also had the Deputy Minister for Justice. If we look more closely at the Order Paper, we also find that there were public hearings that were held by the Committee on Finance. This was in relation to the procurement preference policy. This meant that Parliament, in terms of its activities, ensured that it reached out to the people and allowed public opinion to shape its reports and determinations. This matter is debated in Parliament, and again here is an exercise of transparency and inclusivity. It is a people-driven process. I think the Council must again be commended for it.

If you look at the penultimate item on the Order Paper, it’s the consideration of the report on the visit by the ad hoc committee, led ably by the Chairperson of Committees Ms Joyce Kgoali, to Mafikeng, the province that I come from. This is in terms of a constitutional provision. The Constitution enjoins the NCOP to act as arbiter when intervention is made, either by provinces in local government, or where national Government intervenes in the activities of local government to ensure that there is a respect for the integrity of the different spheres of government, but more importantly to ensure that the intervention that occurs is legitimate. The NCOP then acts as an arbiter.

Did we, in fact, fulfil our constitutional obligation? The answer must be a huge yes. Not only did we go to the province as a multiparty delegation, report to our peers in the ATC, and report back to the House, but we are now debating it, in full view of the public, to ensure that we promote the transparency that our Constitution enjoins us to do.

I do not wish to repeat the contents of the ATC report, but I want to acknowledge and recognise the role played by the co-chairperson of the NCOP to this joint committee, Mrs Nkuna, who is ill today, and has not therefore been able to participate in this debate. We also have to recognise the contributions of Mr Lawrence Lever and the task team that put together this very comprehensive, and I think, very meticulous report on this particular issue, as well as Mr Matthee and other members who worked as part of that particular committee. I think their contributions have been very commendable.

We should also say that we have done commendably well in terms of the fact that we have debated and discussed the issues of oversight and accountability, which was one of the recommendations of this particular joint committee. If my memory serves me correctly, I think we have debated it on no less than three occasions. So, we have already dealt with that. It is also recommended as an immediate step to be implemented that we look very closely at the vision and mission of Parliament.

This has in fact occurred; the NCOP more than six months ago had a workshop where it sought to chart out the vision and mission of the NCOP and the other House. It also recommends, amongst other things, that a protocol be developed to determine the relationship between the NCOP and the National Assembly committees - the select committees and the portfolio committees - in terms of the exercise of oversight, as well as communication and interaction between the committees in their role of oversight and accountability. Whilst we have developed positive practices in terms of that, this has not been formalised and certainly this is one of the challenges that the new Parliament would face.

I think what is most critical is that this committee here had done an extensive amount of work, deliberated very cautiously and carefully about it, went through the Constitution thoroughly, looked at the practices out here and came up with recommendations which would provide the institutional memory of Parliament with an important document on which the new Parliament could base its activity. In other words, they would not have to reinvent, or start a process anew.

One of the other recommendations of the joint committee, which was also adopted by the Joint Rules Committee, was that there should be a constitutional landscape on oversight and accountability. This would derive, amongst other things, from the constitutional provisions, as well as the practices of the parliaments, the current Parliament, as well as the past Parliament, and also contributions of various stakeholders in the constitution-making process; so that we have a comprehensive balance and complete guide, which would assist members of Parliament, public representatives and members of the provincial legislatures in doing their oversight and accountability work.

There have also been recommendations, which have been approved, of the fact that there should be an audit of all entities holding public power, and this would require quite a bit of resources. What is very significant, is that the recommendations of this committee is that this process should be driven by the Chairperson of the NCOP and the Speaker of the National Assembly who would convene the task team, which would be made up of key stakeholders from all political parties, and it would then designate the work to different components that would deal with different areas.

Given the time constraints here, I can only end by saying that, as a House, I do believe that we have fulfilled our task wonderfully well. We should commend all the members and all the committees for the excellent work that they have done, and also the oversight work, particularly with regard to two aspects. The first is the activities during the provincial weeks where Parliament as a whole conducted oversight activity in all nine provinces at the same time, was able to compile a consolidated report, and debated here with the Ministers who are accountable in that regard. The second - which was certainly a highlight of this Council this year, and we must commend the presiding officers for this as well as the staff that ably assisted in this particular process - is when Parliament went to the people and ensured that it listened and reached out to the people.

I think we have led the way in ensuring that our democracy is an inclusive, transparent and responsive one. I conclude by not only commending the members that served on this committee, but this House, its chairpersons and all its members for the wonderful work that they have done. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I shall now put the question, the question being that the report be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber. They are all present. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. There is none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Mr T RALANE: Siyaxhasa. [We support.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Re a e tlatsa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Ons steun. [We support.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke wa rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape.

Mr K D S DURR: Die Wes-Kaap gaan akkoord. [The Western Cape concurs.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON INTERVENTION IN THE MAFIKENG LOCAL MUNICIPALITY

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, we went and we are back. The question is: Why did we go there? We wanted to ascertain as to whether the intervention was necessary or not. We are back because we believe that we have fufilled our mandate.

We were in Mafikeng at the beginning of October as an ad hoc committee under the capable leadership of that dynamic, vibrant person called hon Joyce Kgoali. Chair, in Mafikeng we met various relevant stakeholders, amongst those the MEC for local government, his director-general - in fact he was here yesterday - the new mayor, the acting municipal manager who was seconded to that municipality by the Department of Provincial and Local Government, HODs in that particular municipality, the municipal council itself, organised labour, Salga, the business community, Sanco and so forth. We met all of them because we wanted to be sure about what we wanted to achieve there.

Now that we are back, we believe that we have fulfilled our mandate. Let us tell you, Chair, what we have discovered. I hope that in the end all will agree with us when we make our recommendations. What we discovered was that the budget of that municipality is very low. Before the 2000 elections that municipality was only responsible for, should I call it, the urban areas: Mafikeng, Mmabatho. After the 2000 elections all villages surrounding Mafikeng then became part of this municipality. Unfortunately, because of some lack of understanding of the administration proper explanation was not given to the finance department in order for them to receive the necessary resources, so that they could address the needs of the entire population. It is against that background that we say that the equitable share does not reflect the demographics and the needs of the municipal area.

The municipality has few sources of income and this impacts negatively on service delivery. We were told, and confirmed, that cheques amounting to R1,6 million were dishonoured due to insufficient funds in June this year. The municipality of Mafikeng missed the 2003 deadline for passing its budget. For 2003-04 the municipality budgeted for a deficit of R7,7 million and Treasury did not approve because it is not allowed. What we discovered is that there is a lack of skills in that particular municipality and as a result people are unable to do what they are supposed to do. I do not want to go into details, because it might take the whole of today to do so.

The municipality also failed to finalise the placement of staff. What also disturbed the committee was that the casual or contract staff were appointed at a cost of R268 000 per month, which placed a heavy burden on the resources of that particular municipality. The personnel costs of that municipality exceed 50%, which is far above the norms and standards as set at national level. The municipal council took a decision that said that the overdraft should not exceed R7 million. Unfortunately it did. It went from R7 million to R11 million.

The IDP is not linked to the budget of that municipality. There are no business plans in place. They could not meet the deadline for June 2003 to finalise their IDP. They were to finalise it in October. Let us hope they did so.

The other problem is that the majority of our colleagues, councillors in that municipality, are not familiar with the relevant legislation governing local government. They are not. They say that they appreciate the work done by Kgoshi Mokoena and his committee. The committee system in that municipality is not functioning. From 2000-2003 the council did not receive information on the financial status of the municipality.

There is no visible service delivery in Mafikeng. We are told that from time to time traffic lights are not working. There is an unco-ordinated approach to land sales. The land register is not accurate. Their financial system has no performance management aspects in it. There is a lot of inadequacies in their billing systems. Queries are not adequately addressed or resolved. Reports from the Auditor-General are not followed up and as a result, there is a recurrence of the same audit queries. There is a lack of community participation. Ward committees are very weak and in some areas do not exist at all.

All these happened during the time of the former mayor who has now been dismissed. The former municipal manager is under suspension. The new mayor and the acting municipal manager, when we arrived in Mafikeng, were at a filling station. They were saying to us: ``We have taken this car for mayoral services. We are happy now that the engine is operating very well and the top gasket is now …’’

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, please wrap up.

Mr P D N MALOYI: ``We are now going to fill up with fuel and oil. Then this car will run,’’ they said. We agree with that. This committee is recommending that the intervention in Mafikeng should be approved. It is necessary to do so and it is the right thing to do. Secondly, the MEC’s office should report to this House on a monthly basis about the progress in that particular municipality, in order for us to monitor the implementation of all recommendations made. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question: That the Report be agreed to. As it is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their votes. In accordance with rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed on the question of the voting in alphabetical order per province.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr T RALANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr J F AULSEBROOK: We support.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Supports. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: It is not Constitutional. I want a delegation head to say, yes. Northern Cape?

Ms E N LUBIDLA: Agreed.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke e rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to.

ARRIVE ALIVE: THE RESPONSIBILITY OF SOUTH AFRICANS IN STRIVING TO REDUCE ROAD FATALITIES DURING THE FESTIVE SEASON AND ALL YEAR ROUND

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Ms P C P MAJODINA: Thank you, Deputy Chair of Chairs. Arrive Alive has a simple brief - reduce the number of fatalities and injuries on our roads, and in even simpler terms the objective is to save lives. It sounds very simple indeed.

In order to achieve this, we have to reduce the number of road safety infringements which in turn requires that we change the behaviour of our road users - drivers, taxi owners, as well as passengers and pedestrians. At the risk of generalisation, Chairperson, let me say that in most cases accidents are caused by people: People who fail to maintain their vehicles in good order; people who drive too fast or drive under the influence; people who cross the roads inappropriately; people who fail to maintain adequate following distances; and people who make unrealistic demands on their drivers resulting in many embarking on long journeys with as little as two hours sleep. We have to change the behaviour of people in order to save the lives of people.

To illustrate the point, allow me to ask rhetorical questions. Is there anyone in this room today who has not driven at a speed in excess of the legal limit? Is there anyone in this room who has not at the same time driven under the influence, or has close family and friends who have done so? How many of us, who have been passengers of speeding drivers, have insisted that the driver pull over? We are all guilty, Chairperson.

Whenever we see others breaking the law, the first response is let Government do something about that. What if the tables were turned? What if you were the driver that Government should do something about? How, for example, will the Government stop you from speeding, or drinking and driving, or drinking and walking?

The roads will become safer when drivers decide to drive safely, when passengers stand up for their rights, and when vehicle owners honour their obligation to maintain their vehicles despite the cost of doing so. We all need to accept co-responsibility for what is happening on our roads.

I urge all South Africans to make road safety an issue in our communities, and to give children the tools to be safe on the road by teaching them how to behave as pedestrians and also as cyclists. Let us all undertake to be law-abiding road users. Life is too valuable not to.

The recently launched Operation Juggernaut, which is an integral part of Arrive Alive, involves provinces and the national Department of Transport. Its focus is merely on driver and vehicle fitness. The idea is to surround our key city or district exit and entry points, with very tight roadblocks which will be manned by traffic officials, the national Defence Force, and the South African Police Service. In order to enable provinces to mount this operation, an amount of R12 million has been allocated to provinces by the national Department of Transport.

Operation Juggernaut is an example of increasing the risk of prosecution and of removing all unroadworthy vehicles from our roads. Since its inception, 108 drivers have been arrested in seven provinces; 37 truck drivers and 30 minibus-taxi drivers have been arrested; 93 vehicles have been suspended from the road; 220 trucks and 89 buses have also been removed; 1000 vehicles were fined for overloading and 29 363 fines for offences were issued.

However, we cannot block every road and search every vehicle. We need co- operation from all citizens. There are seven road safety commandments, and failure to observe them lead to sorrow and grief. They are: do not speed; do not drink and drive; do not drink and walk; do not overload; wear your seat belt; ensure driver and vehicle fitness; and promote pedestrian safety. If you are not putting on your safety belts and the car is cruising at 160 km per hour, then you will also, when the car crashes, cruise from your seat at 160 km per hour.

It is with great sadness, ladies and gentlemen, hon members, that I mention that during the month of October this year we saw several terrible crashes in which many people lost their lives. To mention a few: in Gauteng, on 5 October, 14 people died when a truck travelling down Potgieter Street in Pretoria hit over two vehicles as a result of brake failure; in KZN, on 20 October, 18 people died when the driver of a heavy vehicle lost control, and most of the elderly people, who were in the queue to receive their pay, died; in Mpumalanga, on 26 October, a minibus and a heavy vehicle collided head-on along the N2 between Piet Retief and Pongola, and claimed 14 lives; and on 30 October 2002 on the same road there was a similar vehicle accident that caused about 12 deaths; and another accident in the Western Cape also on 30 October. The list is endless, Chairperson, but it needs us all to do something about how we drive.

Chairperson, there are powers that have been given to traffic officers in relation to overloading control. They are contained in section 11 of the Road Traffic Act of 1989, and also in the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977 which give them the powers relating to the arrest, impoundment and confiscation of vehicles that have been overloaded.

Chairperson, it is our duty as South Africans that we arrive alive, and let’s educate all South Africans. Let’s be patient on our roads. And on behalf of the Select Committee on Public Services I want to wish all South Africans a safe journey home, a safe journey to their holidays, and come back alive. Arrive alive. Thank you. [Applause.]

Dr P J C NEL: Mnr die Voorsitter, hierdie debat oor ``Arrive Alive’’ kon seker nie op ‘n meer gepaste tyd gehou gewees het as juis vandag, gedurende die laaste sitting van die jaar, en op die vooraand van die Kersvakansie nie. [Mr Chairman, this debate about Arrive Alive could not have been held at a more appropriate time than precisely today, during the last sitting of the year, and on the eve of the Christmas holidays.]

Mr Chair, the awareness of road safety is of the utmost importance at this time of the year, especially, if one looks at the statistics released by the Department of Transport recently. According to the department there are 6 million licensed drivers and 6,7 million licensed motorised vehicles that travel approximately 140 billion kilometres per year on a road network of 750 000 km, causing over 500 000 traffic accidents per annum, killing over 10 000 people per year and mutilating about 18 000. That means that one person is killed every 48 minutes, and every four seconds an accident occurs on our roads, costing the country approximately R16 billion per year.

It is quite clear that a tremendous challenge lies ahead of the Arrive Alive campaign during the next festive season. The campaign was applauded in 1998 as one of the best initiatives initiating a positive change in the attitude of road users. That is so important, because according to the Department of Transport between 80% to 90% of all road collisions are the result of driver behaviour like speeding, aggression, recklessness, negligence, inconsiderate driving and drunken driving.

Today the Arrive Alive campaign has become an important part of road traffic safety projects in South Africa. But, we must, however, remember that the Arrive Alive campaign is not the mere function of one person, or one department, but should be seen as an effort by the whole of South Africa to join hands in the promotion of road safety.

Mr Chair, what can we do as citizens? My advice to you is don’t drive when you are tired. Don’t bluff yourselves. Speed kills and plays a role in 75% of all accidents. Don’t drink and drive. Sixty percent of all motor accidents involve alcohol. Don’t talk on your cellphone when you are driving. Remember your mind goes out of the car to that person that you are talking to. Don’t lose your temper, and don’t shout …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon member, your time has expired.

Dr P J C NEL: Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N M RAJU: Hon Chairperson and hon colleagues, according to statistics provided to the Portfolio Committee on Transport a total of 60 127 vehicles are driving around with expired CRWs, that is certificates of roadworthiness - 15 130 heavy passenger transport vehicles, including buses and minibus taxis; 24 583 trucks; 20 414 heavy-load trailers.

There are 279 597 unlicensed vehicles. These vehicles, wherever they are - depots, yards, backyards, and garages - must be clamped and not be allowed to get onto our roads before their licences and certificates of roadworthiness are in order. The Arrive Alive business plan must intensify law enforcement and control of driver and vehicle fitness aspects.

The Democratic Alliance had long ago suggested the use of lights during daylight driving, and we are happy that the green light has now been given for this. Just as motorcycle accidents have minimised somewhat, so we are sure there would be fewer road crashes when motor vehicles are also allowed to use their lights during their daylight driving.

Road accidents must now be considered criminal acts. Enough is enough. There must be no holds barred. Strong law enforcement is the answer. There should be no mercy for criminals on the road. Commitment to road safety must become the obligation of every motorist, passenger and pedestrian. Co- responsibility of road users to lessen the number of crashes and spills, resulting in deaths and serious injuries, must be consciously adopted.

The harnessing of fuel stations on the main highways to help in advertising the dangers on the road and alerting motorist to them is most welcome. The involvement of the private sector in helping conscientising the road user to road safety measures is critical to changing attitudes.

The Democratic Alliance welcomes Operation Juggernaut over the next three months, including the forthcoming festive season. The thrust of Operation Juggernaut is more than the supporting of Arrive Alive. The operation must be a bare-knuckle confrontation against unroadworthy freight vehicles, buses and minibus taxis, unlicensed vehicles, unlicensed drivers, drivers with expired licences, and drivers under the influence of alcohol.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Mr N M RAJU: Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Madam Chairperson and the honourable House, the road safety measures put in place in the North West province are the strictest ever. Vehicles are no longer randomly stopped but are stopped on a more regular basis. I have seen drivers sticking their hands out to hand over their card drivers’ licences even before they are actually stopped or are demanded to do so by the traffic cops. It seems they already know what is going to be asked of them.

I am in possession of a ticket of R500 for a head lamp that failed when I bumped into a pothole. [Interjections.] There seems to be no excuse. A traffic officer who attends the same church as I do is a different man on the road. He puts on a different cap to the one he puts on when he goes to church. All this is happening in an attempt to reduce road fatalities and save lives.

Speeding is certainly one of the contributing factors that is frustrating the road safety strategy and the Arrive Alive campaign. Many pedestrians have lost their lives as a result of speeding, and very often a speeding vehicle is less controllable than a slow-moving vehicle. The use of a cellphone while driving is a distraction and has resulted in many collisions owing to the divided attention of the driver, something Dr Nel has already alluded to. One is aware that it has been outlawed, but its prohibition has not been vigorously enforced so as to serve as a deterrent to other prospective road users.

Notwithstanding the above, I hope the Arrive Alive road strategy is certainly going to achieve its purposes in our province this year.

I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I want to congratulate my colleagues on their interesting speeches.

I wish to focus on just one aspect, and that is the people that do not arrive alive. I think there should be an inquiry into the effect of the practice of raising memorials and placing markers and crosses at the place of a severe accident for people that have tragically lost their lives. The people that erect those memorials have mixed objectives: to remember, to honour, to warn and to caution. Of course, one’s heart goes out to them and one has the deepest sympathy for them. But the question is: Do they achieve their objectives with these markers?

Along our roads there is a growing forest of crosses. When I drive home, I can see on either side of the road - growing all the time - a forest of crosses and markers. I believe that they are so prevalent as to brutalise our society and to have the opposite effect from that which was intended.

I have seen groups of cars and people gathered dangerously by such road side group markings in a service, endangering their lives and the lives of other motorists. Some of these are now permanent markers, some are gravestones and headstones that are a traffic hazard. The practice continues along our major roads. Soon it will be like driving through a graveyard when you drive along our roads, and this cannot be right. This cannot be good for tourism. It is playing no role, in my view, in reducing fatalities. I can understand, perhaps, people leaving flowers by the road side after an accident, at the place of a tragedy and even on the anniversary of an accident. But raising permanent markers is a practice that, I think, we should discourage and disallow. They are distracting and depressing, and they are so prevalent as to brutalise rather than to sensitise.

Together with the members of the committee and with Ms Majodina, who made an excellent speech, the ACD has considered this and supports this wonderful programme. We support Operation Juggernaut. It is our hope and prayer that everybody will return safely, not only alive but elected. I thank you. [Applause.]

An HON MEMBER: Bathathe mama! [Take them on, mamma!]

Rev M CHABAKU: Angithathi ``niks’’ bathathile. [There is nothing to take on. They have done that already.]

I completely endorse the previous presentations by my hon colleagues. They have said the bulk of what I wanted to say. I almost have nothing to say, except to support what they said.

This statement of mine endorses the Arrive Alive campaign. It is not only for Easter and the festive season of December, but for every time and for everyone. It is the right of all people to arrive alive wherever they go. It is especially so for innocent children, the sickly and the aged or the indigent.

It is time for all people to rise up and make sure that all people arrive alive. We call on passengers to make a note of the number plate of the vehicle they are going to ride in and, if the driver is overspeeding, to call Arrive Alive and report that driver by giving the registration number, the time, where they are and where they are going. Arrive Alive will check immediately in a few seconds where they are and discourage the driver from risking the lives of all in the vehicle. Passengers should avoid overloading with children and with big, heavy and bulky baggage which make it hard for vehicles to carry the loads. We, as parliamentarians, have been actively involved in making sure that drivers, owners of vehicles, goods and passengers are safe on the roads. We need to also check that the following are roadworthy, and these have been mentioned before: the brakes, the steering wheel, the tyres and what have you.

Let us also keep an eye on those who have cool drinks mixed with alcohol. There need to be humps where adventurers do drag racing in residential areas so that more of this speeding can be avoided. We must also avoid bribery. Corruption has been the issue that has destroyed everything everywhere. We must be so morally strong that we do not get bribed easily by money, drinks, sex or personal or selfish ambitions. It does not matter what education or wealth you have, because even if you are an academic giant, if you are morally weak you become a dwarf. May we help ourselves to avoid these accidents and similar ones. I urge that we publicise this Arrive Alive number, which is: 0861 400 800. I will say it again: 0861 400

1. So, Arrive Alive throughout December and January, and for the rest of our lives.

The Select Committee on Public Services of this Parliament endorses the Arrive Alive programme. The number again: 0861 400 800. More police recruits are not the answer. All of us use the road and use vehicles so we are all responsible. Let old and young decide to do something right now about Arrive Alive to reduce this loss of life.

This is a season of joy, happiness, reunions and forgiveness. The scripture says: ``Glory be to God on high and on earth peace and goodwill towards all people.’’ I urge you to follow this upside down, which means that, if we are willing to be good to all people, there will be peace on earth, and with peace on earth, there will be glory to God on high. Again, I plead: Arrive alive. The number is: 0861 400 800.

We support Arrive Alive. [Applause.]

                          FAREWELL SPEECHES THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank  you  very  much, Chairperson. In saying farewell to the members at the end of this very  busy year, we would have to start with the leadership  you  have  displayed,  the guidance that  you  have  given  to  this  particular  Council,  your  quiet authority and your guidance at all critical times. I think  I  could  say  I speak on behalf of all the members when we  acknowledge  and  recognise  the role that you have played in leading this House.  We  also  acknowledge  the support that you have received from  the  Deputy  Chairperson,  who  is  not present here, and congratulate him in his absence on his appointment to  the Pan-African Parliament.

This is a quite unique House and I think we are all leaders here and almost members of a family and it is quite inspiring and motivating to be working in a House like this where you have the tremendous support and co-operation from all members, from different provinces from different political parties; and I would like to acknowledge the support, the mutual understanding, the tolerance and the cameraderie that have been displayed here throughout the year. So I say, from the ANC, thank you to the members from all the other political parties as well as the members of the African National Congress. As the Chief Whip, thank you to the Whippery, to the chairpersons of committees for their leadership, the chairpersons of the various committees for their role that they played in guiding this Council through its difficult period. I know the programme has been extremely demanding this year, but we have been able to accomplish much in terms of oversight, taking Parliament to the people, provincial weeks, legislative scrutiny, the wonderful amendments that have been brought through the various committees. In fact, more than 80% of the Bills that have reached us have been amended; so committees have been hard at work. May you have a restful festive season. We thank you for that.

But before we conclude, I think we have to acknowledge the role of the Secretary of the NCOP, the heads of committees and the various members of the committee section, the Table staff, the service officers, the interpreters, working very hard, the members of staff of the NCOP, Hansard and all and sundry who are attached to this institution for their support. We also extend our best wishes to them during the festive season and also thank them for the unstinting support they have given to the institution.

With these words I say, arrive alive and being as considerate as you are when you drive, you will have due regard for the safety of other motorists, the passengers in your vehicle as well as pedestrians. May God be with you! Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, by my reckoning, this is the fifth end of the year in which we take leave of each other, and it signals also that some of us perhaps in the democratic process will not be coming back, some of us by choice and others perhaps not so, but whatever the situation is, on behalf of myself and my colleagues in the DA, we wish everyone the best over the festive season. We hope they have fulfilled their personal goals and we also express our gratitude to all our colleagues from all parties in this House for the general goodwill we have experienced over these five end-of- year seasons and also in our work in this Council, and I simply wish to express the good wishes of myself and my colleagues to everybody. Have a good New Year and festive season and come back safely, if that is your fate. [Applause.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I want to share something with my colleagues and that is about a woman who smiled at a sorrowful stranger. The smile seemed to make him feel a little bit better. He remembered past kindnesses of a friend and wrote him a thank you letter. The friend was so pleased with the thank you letter that he left a large tip after lunch. The waitress, surprised by the size of the tip, bet the whole thing on a hunch. The next day, she picked up her winnings, and gave part to a man on the street. The man on the street was grateful; for two days he had had nothing to eat. After he had finished his dinner, he left for his small, dingy room. He did not know at that moment that he might be facing his doom. On the way, he picked up a shivering puppy and took him home to get warm. The puppy was very grateful to be in out of the storm. That night, the house caught on fire. The puppy barked the alarm. He barked till he woke the whole household and saved everybody from harm. One of the boys that he rescued grew up to be president. All this because of a simple smile that had not cost a single cent.

Chairperson, on behalf of the New NP, I want to thank you and the deputy presiding officers for your smiles, the secretariat for theirs, the supporting staff, Hansard and the media, but especially five people that we so often take for granted in this House. I want to call out their names. On behalf of the New NP, I have a gesture of thanks for each of them. These people are Dorothy Kovo, Brent Leeuwendal, Moira Foster, Zuko Bokwana and Freek Erasmus. I am sure many of the members sitting here do not even know who they are. They are our service officers here and, on behalf of myself, I want to thank you specially and I want to give you your envelopes when we go out. To all my colleagues, the Christian colleagues, I hope you have a Christian-filled season and to all the other colleagues, I hope you will also enjoy the peace of this festive season. [Applause.]

Mr M J BHENGU: Chairperson, at last we have come to the end of our five- year parliamentary term, and to epitomise this lengthy period of hard and difficult work in the NCOP, perhaps Shakespeare would have put it into these words: ``Let’s call the field to rest and part the glories of this happy day.’’ And myself and Mom Vilakazi wish to say that we have been very happy in the NCOP and we have been very happy in every sense of the word.

We meet to part and part to meet and as I stand here, I would not say that I will come back to the NCOP nor that I will come back in the NA, but you see, as we all know, politics being what it is, I will never know where I will end up. Perhaps I will end up in my province. But having said that, I wish to commend, Madam Chair, your sterling leadership, which has been very unprecedented, particularly the way you steered the NCOP as an institution. Your leadership qualities are indeed living proof that not only the sterner sex, but also the fairer sex can actually display those leadership qualities. I have been very impressed by your global vision which has not been blurred by party politics. Most of us actually succumb to that kind of a thing.

I will miss the wonderful co-operation from my Chief Whip, Mr Surty. Allow me to thank my colleague, Sis Joyce. I usually call her Sis Joyce. I will not forget the way she addresses me. She will always say ``Ngcolisi’’. As an African that actually touches the very … [Interjections.] I wish also to thank all the political parties in the NCOP, including provincial Whips. I also wish to thank all the staff who have been very kind to us in executing our job. With those few words, I think that members will agree with me that we have tried, in this NCOP, to make it a family and I think that that spirit will continue even if we are not here. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Thank you, Chair. We have once more come to the end of another year and, of course, it’s not far from the end of the term, but we need to acknowledge that we managed to serve in this Parliament up to this time not due to our own making, but rather due to the mercy of our Creator.

The UDM regrets the passing away of some of our colleagues during the course of this year and term as well. We salute them because they died while engaged in the struggle for transformation and reconstruction of our country, ravaged by the past apartheid regime.

We recognise and acknowledge the outstanding leadership qualities of our Chairperson, the hon member, Grace Naledi Pandor. She is indeed a star, hence the word ``Naledi’’. Let’s not forget the Deputy Chair, hon member J M Mahlangu. He has been, to me, very accommodating and approachable and always sober-minded.

Our Chief Whip, Enver Surty, has more often reflected Christian virtues than those of a prefect or a Whip. He has been accommodating in our multiparty Whips’ forum. We never experienced deadlocks because of his leadership skills. Chairpersons of Committees, you have been considerate indeed and have managed your committees skilfully and successfully. Chair of Chairs, Sis Joyce, you have always displayed a high degree of dedication and commitment to your work. As for me and as for apparently this House here, we are going to miss the laughter that was in this House, sounds like Order! Order!'', sounds like Goikolê! Goikolê’’ … [Laughter] … sounds like ``Ke ya rona! Ke ya rona!’’ [We support.] [Laughter.]

In conclusion, I wish everybody a happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson and the honourable House. Saying goodbye to people whom one has befriended closely is not an easy task. It touches the inner feelings of those that are being bid goodbye, as well as the one that bids them goodbye. As I bid you goodbye this afternoon, I feel within my heart the temporary cutting off of that chord that always bound us together irrespective of our different political affiliations. The Chairperson, a very strict but likable lady with a pleasant disposition, has been our mother and guide since we came to this House. I wish her a pleasant festive season and a prosperous New Year. The Deputy Chairperson and the Chief Whip, a very humble and accommodating man, have been our help and support in problematic times. I take this opportunity to wish them, together with all my comrades and colleagues in this House a pleasant festive season and a prosperous New Year.

Mr K D S DURR: Thank you very much. I ask myself, when I reflect back, Chairperson, over the past twelve months, a few simple questions and that is: Have we made a difference? I think we have. Have we made good law? I think we have. Have we improved legislation that has been sent to us? We have, on a very large scale. [Applause.] Have we enriched our society? We have. Have we broken new ground? We have. Have we done our duty? We have. Have we been self-critical? If you listen to our Chairperson when she spoke in the President’s debate, when, positive though she is and supportive though she is of this institution, she remained self-critical and looked for ways and means, as we constantly must, to improve the situation here. So with all of that, I have to say my cup runneth over and I think that we have done our duty, and that is always good.

I greet my colleagues here. Thank you, Chairperson, your deputy, the Chief Whip, and all of my colleagues. They are wonderful. Also in the opposition, you know the small party I have, I have always been encouraged by my colleagues on the ANC side. I would not tell you how and why, but they have; and they have enriched my life and I thank them for that.

I would then greet everybody rather in my farewell speech not in the sense of goodbye, but in the sense of au revoir. I thank you. [Applause.]

THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon members. Now, I must first of all remind hon members that unless they know something that I do not know, the term has not ended. You are merely saying au revoir until 26 January, or 26 January, 2004. You will then be back. Following that, we do not know, but we have another term which we must complete and work in.

I note hon members, and this is not at all a political comment, that the two clocks in our chamber indicate different times. The clock to my right is behind time and the clock to my left is absolutely accurate. I am not quite sure politically what that means. [Laughter.] I must, however, proceed to thank all hon members for the contributions they have made to the House in this year. And I must, having said that, congratulate you on your sterling, hard work. I believe members have been quite amazing. I am most impressed. I thank you heartily for your dedication. I believe you have been working extremely hard and you are deserving of the rest you are about to proceed to.

To all members I say therefore, your work in the National Council of Provinces has been extremely well done. I wish you well during the festive season.

I congratulate the Deputy Chairperson on having joined this House and having taken so well to the work of the National Council of Provinces. I also congratulate him on his elevation to being our representative of this Parliament, one of five, who will serve us in the Pan-African Parliament.

I also would like to express particular thanks to the presiding officers who assist us - the Chairperson of Committees, Mrs Kgoali, and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees, Mr Bhengu. I also must thank the chairpersons of our select committees.

BoKgosi Mokoena le ba bangwe, le dira tiro e kgolo. Re a le leboga. [The Kgoshi Mokoenas and the others, you are doing a great job. We thank you.] You certainly give us status through the excellent way in which you lead our committees. And, of course, the members play an important role in ensuring that our committees do work.

I must then proceed to thank the Chief Whip of the National Council for his consistent, hard work and dedication to this House. I had been observing his hair for some time and I wondered whether it would be all white by the end of the year, but because we still have a term to go, perhaps we will see at the end of that next term whether the all-white will come, but certainly the hard work points to a need for more white hairs, because you are certainly one of the hardest-working people that I have ever met.

I also thank all the provincial Whips and the party Whips for their leadership roles and their contributions within the National Council of Provinces. I congratulated them particularly for having learned in the last six months to be early for the programme committee meetings. This is indeed a huge success for the National Council of Provinces.

I would like, hon members, on your behalf, to proceed to thank the Secretary to Parliament, the Deputy Secretary, the Assistant Secretary, all the divisional managers as well as all the general staff for the excellent work and role they play in this institution in providing it with management support and in ensuring that our systems begin to work toward a point where they will efficiently service parliamentarians and the public at large.

We have noted a number of achievements. We have begun to craft a language policy, which I believe will begin to serve our Parliament well as we develop it into a practical policy. I also would like to thank the language staff, because we tend, in this House, to use language rather often and we have been well-served through good interpretation services and we thank our language and Hansard staff for that role.

I would also like to congratulate the staff and the Secretary in particular for having ensured that we have an information technology support centre available to members, for having given support to our committees to ensure that they do work well.

Having thanked the Secretary to Parliament, I am sure you would not deny me the right to thank the Secretary to the National Council of Provinces in particular and her staff for their dedication to the House and the very hard work that they have done on our behalf.

Hon members, working in the National Council of Provinces requires dexterity, decisiveness, flexibility and a well-rounded competence, and each one of you has these qualities. We also express appreciation to our provincial representatives and leadership, the Premiers, the Speakers of the provincial legislatures, and members in the provincial legislatures who work so well with us. We thank local government through Salga as well.

We must also acknowledge the liaison officers and, of course, our service officers. I am curious, you all have to bring the envelopes to my office and I will decide whether you keep them! [Laughter.] But, certainly, we thank our service officers for always being so ready to be of assistance to us in this House. I observe them from this Chair and thus far, I have not seen a single one of them taking a peek at the many notes that we write. They have a very well-developed sense of confidentiality, and I admire them for that and thank them for that honesty. Each one of you and the staff play vital roles in ensuring the progress of our democracy. You are necessary to our continued progress.

I hope that hon members will strive hard to ensure that they continue to play a role in the life of our country and that the process of determining candidates for 2004 will not see our members holding back in ensuring that indeed they continue to play some form of a life in the democracy and in our Parliament.

I conclude by asking you to ensure that you arrive alive. The way to do it is to limit that liquid that Mr Raju referred to. Alcohol is the blight of our nation. It is destructive, and we cannot drink and drive. I wish you all a very happy festive season, a merry Christmas, a happy 2004, a good election campaign, safety and the return on 26 January at 8:30 am for the first committee meeting and then the programme committee thereafter. Thank you very much, hon members. My thanks to you all. Happy holidays.

The Council adjourned at 18.44. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bills passed by National Assembly on 27 November 2003:


     (i)     National Environmental Management: Protected Areas Bill  [B
           39D - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)


      (ii)    Environment Conservation Amendment Bill  [B  45D  -  2003]
           (National Assembly - sec 76)


     (iii)   Restitution of Land Rights Amendment Bill [B  42D  -  2003]
           (National Assembly - sec 75)


 (2)    Bills passed by National Council of  Provinces  on  27  November
     2003:


     (i)     Adjustments Appropriation Bill  [B  69  -  2003]  (National
           Assembly - sec 77)


     (ii)    Revenue  Laws  Amendment  Bill  [B  71  -  2003]  (National
           Assembly - sec 77)


     (iii)   Liquor Bill [B 23F - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)


     (iv)     Electoral  Laws  Second  Amendment  Bill  [B  73  -  2003]
           (National Assembly - sec 75)


     (v)     Judicial Matters Second  Amendment  Bill  [B  41B  -  2003]
           (National Assembly - sec 75)

National Council of Provinces:

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council:

 (1)    Bill passed  by  National  Assembly  on  27  November  2003  and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (i)     Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Bill [B  19B
          - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75) (introduced as Prevention
          of Corruption Bill [B 19 - 2002])


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Security  and
     Constitutional Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Public Investment  Commissioners
 for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 152-2003].

1. The Minister of Public Works:

 (a)    Community Based Public Works Programme for 2000-2001.


 (b)    Community Based Public Works Programme for 2001-2002.


 (c)    Community Based Public Works Programme for 2002-2003.


 (d)    Community Based Public Works Programme for 2003-2004.

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of Amatola Water  for  the  year
     ended June 2003, including the Report of the  Independent  Auditors
     for the year ended June 2003.


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of Botshelo Water for  the  year
     ended June 2003, including the Report of the  Independent  Auditors
     for the year ended June 2003.


 (c)    Report and Financial Statements of Lepelle  Northern  Water  for
     the year ended June 2003, including the Report of  the  Independent
     Auditors for the year ended June 2003.


 (d)    Report and Financial Statements of Namaqua Water  for  the  year
     ended June 2003, including the Report of the  Independent  Auditors
     for the year ended June 2003.


 (e)    Report and Financial Statements of Overberg Water for  the  year
     ended June 2003, including the Report of the  Independent  Auditors
     for the year ended June 2003.


 (f)    Report and Financial Statements of Rand Water for the year ended
     June 2003, including the Report of  the  Independent  Auditors  for
     the year ended June 2003.

1. The Minister of Housing:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Rural Housing  Loan  Fund
     (RHLF) for 2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the  Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Social Housing Foundation
     (SHF) for  2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the  Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (c)    Report and Financial Statements of Thubelisha  Homes  for  2002-
     2003, including the Report  of  the  Independent  Auditors  on  the
     Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (d)    Report and Financial Statements  of  Servcon  Housing  Solutions
     (Proprietary) Limited for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.


 (e)     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of   the   National   Urban
     Reconstruction and Housing  Agency  for  2002-2003,  including  the
     Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements  for
     2002-2003.


 (f)    Report and Financial  Statements  of  National  Housing  Finance
     Corporation Limited for 2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of  the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.